From nobody at replay.com  Tue Sep  1 00:02:56 1998
From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:02:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199809010703.JAA12169@replay.com>


Is this like flame baiting him? Personally I don't mind the comments :)

-----------

We don't take kindly to racial slurs here.  You'll probably be receiving
hundreds of email bombs over the next few days from angry
cypherpunks.  You may want to change email accounts.God bless!


At 08:19 PM 8/29/98 -0400, RyanFord at aol.com wrote:> hola and good
tidings 
>  send some info on spooks please >  i will be grateful> 









From nobody at replay.com  Tue Sep  1 00:22:11 1998
From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is Hate Code Speech? YES
Message-ID: <199809010722.JAA14753@replay.com>


First off if she didn't like the code she could have quit.  Laws that
say a company has to change their internal practices to make the
workers happy are idiotic.  I can't sue because the men's bathroom
looks like crap and the wemans has a couch in it!  If the program code
was meant for distribution it might be a little different but still
you have the choice not to get that code.  The same as reading this
message a few lines in you could delete it!  You chose to read this
far.  The code is internal only and thus should require an internal
policy, not an outside law enforcement agency.  As far as speach: If
it wasn't a form of speech she would have not gotten offended.  She
was offended by the language in the source code and thus the speech.
get a job somewhere you feel comfortable, don't get a job and force
them to change things around you


---"Albert P. Franco, II" <apf2 at apf2.com> wrote:
>
> >From: mcw at atreus.ncs.ncsc.mil
> >Subject: Is Hate Code Speech?
> >
> 
> 
> >I acknowledge that you're welcome to use whatever variable names you
> >want in code you write in private. BUt if you want to sell that
code, it
> >should be held to a standard of professionalism.
> >
> 
> I think it is interesting that people are speaking of  the program as
> something published for public consumption. Source code for commercial
> products rarely goes public and compilers do a rather nice job of
obscuring
> human language variable names. Thus if there is any message or
coherent
> agenda in the source code it is highly unlikely that it will be
detectable
> in the executable, which is in fact the product delivered to the
public.
> 
> Since the source code can only be read by insiders/employees then
this does
> tend to make it rather obvious that a form of speech was intended. I
won't
> rehash the fact that non-relevant, human-language-significant variable
> names (as opposed to x, y, i, & j) are generally unacceptable
programming
> practice. I would make two points; that in todays programming world
source
> code is protected by copyright law as are other forms of expression
legally
> considered speech and source code is intended to document the
process and
> as such communicate ideas--in a broad sense this is a decent
description of
> speech, a written mode of communicating ideas. 
> 
> If someone finds offensive (hate) material in an obscured text
(encrypted)
> intended for limited distribution, does the encryption make it less
> hateful? does the encryption make it any less a form of speech? does
the
> fact that distribution is limited (assumming the "target" is in the
> distribution class) make it any less offensive? Is a crime less
illegal if
> it is hidden? (Be careful, on this one...)
> 
> I think that offensive, probably hateful, speech was intended. So
the next
> step (or for others, a previous step) is to decide whether there are
legal
> grounds for action. There are several laws which do, in fact, make
these
> activities illegal. Most people in the US today agree that overt
racism is
> wrong. Additionally, most "Americans" agree with laws that make it
illegal
> to use/perform "hateful" speech. 
> 
> These are very dangerous laws since they try to tread a very thin line
> between the freedom of thoughts (and to some degree, actions) and
injury to
> others. When I first settled down to live in Spain and began to pay
real
> attention to the local political scene I was astonished to find people
> defending the "right" of the radicals to throw stones and metal
objects at
> those persons expressing ideas contrary to theirs (pro-peace,
> anti-terrorism demonstrations, 1995-6). Fortunately, we hear less
and less
> of this non-sense that physical harm to another is a valid form of
personal
> expression or speech. But the base problem lingers, where do we draw
the
> line of expression of ideas and intent to do harm. It has long been
held
> that shouting "fire" in a crowded building is not a protected form of
> speech. Nor is libel (forgetting for now the problems of defining or
> proving it). And where do we draw the line (or does it even matter?)
> between public and private? And where do expression and action get
> separated? Thinking about doing something, or telling some one about
those
> thoughts are not generally the same as actually doing it. But where
does
> thought become expression become action?
> 
> This case doesn't solely revolve around the speech issue...IMO, it
also
> revolves around the public/private issue, and whether or not the
government
> can rightfully "enter" a "private" business place to regulate these
> matters. Recent history (80 years or so...) shows an increasing
tendency
> for the government to "protect" workers by regulating the workplace.
There
> are health & safety regs, minimum wage regs, etc. The "American"
populace
> has in general supported (and at times demanded) these external
limits on
> the "private" employer/employee relationship. Legal precedent exists.
> 
> There are two problems here and historically the government has been
called
> upon to keep a balance between "free speech" and "harmful speech" on
the
> one hand and "Privacy" and "Protection" on the other hand. The
debate now
> is with this case which way will (should?) the pendulum swing? More
> protection (reduction of privacy), more freedom (or hateful
speech)... 
> 
> Personally, I hope no one wins this eternal debate 100% since the
results
> would be disastrous.
> 
> Just some thoughts...
> 
> Albert P. Franco, II
> encryption at apf2.com
> 
> 

==

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com






From martin at mpce.mq.edu.au  Tue Sep  1 02:05:35 1998
From: martin at mpce.mq.edu.au (Martin ELLISON)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 02:05:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809010904.TAA23375@kryton.mpce.mq.edu.au>

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From apf2 at apf2.com  Tue Sep  1 02:08:06 1998
From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 02:08:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEWARE of SnakeOil (tm)
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980902103231.006af730@apf2.com>


>> The subpoena Booher received also ordered him to bring to the courthouse
the
>> source code for his product, suggesting the government wants to reverse
>> engineer it.
>

The writer of this article shows an astonishing lack of computer knowledge.
If they get the source code then there is no need to reverse engineer!
Discount anything technical this writer says since he/she is clueless!

Give 'em a word processor and they think they're journalists...

Albert P. Franco, II








From chromedemon at netcologne.de  Tue Sep  1 04:06:36 1998
From: chromedemon at netcologne.de (Lars Weitze)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is it true that PGP 5.X is not secure?
Message-ID: <001001bdd5a0$b7cef800$7b0000c8@chrome>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

There are still rumors about that...
ChromeDemon
- -- 
"One dead is a tragedy, thousand deads are a statistic."
        Karl Marx

e-mail: chromedemon at netcologne.de
http://chromedemon.home.pages.de
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-weitzela2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 5.5.5

iQA/AwUBNevU0XnCsKPabtOfEQILcACfZ097WlD1pyA+2c7qv5RcyuYQJaEAoOmf
mvg3B9F9NNv7qrHljjgC1T+B
=J/8j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Sep  1 05:45:13 1998
From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 05:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is it true that PGP 5.X is not secure?
In-Reply-To: <001001bdd5a0$b7cef800$7b0000c8@chrome>
Message-ID: <35EBEC0F.3EE4869E@stud.uni-muenchen.de>


Lars Weitze wrote:
>  
> There are still rumors about that...

My humble knowledge does not permit my answering your question.
However, I suppose your question is problematical. It is difficult
to define security, or more precisely a scientifcally rigorous
measure of security. I don't think that it is sensible to talk about 
absolute security without reference to a context (environment). In 
my view there is no 'perfect' encryption system in the practical
world. If by 'not secure' you meant something that malicious persons 
have secretely manipulated to cause you damage, then I also don't 
know but I guess that to be highly unlikely, given the good historical 
record of PGP. 

M. K. Shen





From sbryan at vendorsystems.com  Tue Sep  1 07:20:37 1998
From: sbryan at vendorsystems.com (Steve Bryan)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is it true that PGP 5.X is not secure?
In-Reply-To: <001001bdd5a0$b7cef800$7b0000c8@chrome>
Message-ID: <v03102801b211b1210b7a@[192.168.3.63]>


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>There are still rumors about that...
>ChromeDemon
>- --
>"One dead is a tragedy, thousand deads are a statistic."
>        Karl Marx
>
>e-mail: chromedemon at netcologne.de
>http://chromedemon.home.pages.de
>http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-weitzela2
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP 5.5.5
>
>iQA/AwUBNevU0XnCsKPabtOfEQILcACfZ097WlD1pyA+2c7qv5RcyuYQJaEAoOmf
>mvg3B9F9NNv7qrHljjgC1T+B
>=J/8j
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Why pay attention to ill-supported rumors? The source code is publicly
available at www.pgpi.com. If there is a security issue then it can be
critiqued with reference to the places in the source code that are the
cause of the problem. If someone has done this, I haven't been paying close
enough attention and I apologize for ranting. If not, then I would dismiss
such claims as almost certainly baseless.

Steve Bryan
Vendorsystems International
email: sbryan at vendorsystems.com
icq: 5263678
pgp fingerprint: D758 183C 8B79 B28E 6D4C  2653 E476 82E6 DA7C 9AC5







From billp at nmol.com  Tue Sep  1 08:34:25 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:34:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Threaded code's place
Message-ID: <35EC12E4.1B6C@nmol.com>

Tuesday 9/1/98 9:00 AM

Alexander Wolfe

I spoke to Richard Hanson yesterday afternoon.

He got the e-mail referencing

http://www.eet.com/news/98/1024news/java.html

I wrote the attached WEED KILLER addition for an SBIR proposal submitted
by several profs at Texas A&M and a Sandia physicist.

Threaded code can 'save-the-day' on some types of projects but doesn't
work very well on others.  I wrote in the preface of my 8051 forth book

 FORTH is applicable to hardware intensive projects        
 implemented by one, two, or three workers.  Robots,        
 computer numerical controlled machines, weapons        
 programmers, cryptographic processors, engine        
 controllers, unmanned observatories, computer hardware        
 debuggers, laser printer graphics controllers, video        
 games, work station device drivers, writing BASICs are        
 all candidates for FORTH software technology.  FORTH is        
 a one of the top choices for embedded controller        
 applications.       

AFTER publication of my SANDIA-APPROVED BOOK, I learned FROM NSA

1  the former ussr uses Forth to fuze it weapons systems
2  builds a military version of the 8051.

Oh dear.

/http://www.apcatalog.com/cgi-bin/AP?ISBN=0125475705&LOCATION=US&FORM=FORM2  

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/javavm/ gives the definition of the
Java verbs.

Charles Moore, Forth's inventor, is writing the ShBoom Java compiler
http://www.ptsc.com/

The green machine at http://www.metriguard.com/HCLT.HTM runs using the
Forth from my book.

Since I was fired I have been doing mostly MASM and Visual Basic
programming.

This is good for me since I gives me a different perspective from
standalone
Forth and Forth assembler which I did at Sandia.

Visual Basic is more like Fortran than traditional basics.

                      Implementing Basics : How Basics Work 
                 William H. and Patricia Payne / Published 1982 
http://www.amazon.com

Your article on Java and its future was VERY INFORMATIVE.

I SPECULATE that Java will see about the same success as Forth.

I am working on completion of the digital FX Model 2600FX Ultrasonic
Veneer Tester
http://www.metriguard.com/METPROD.HTM which uses a 80C32 micrcontroller
interfacing
to a Windows PC though an ieee 1284 ecp port.

The 80C32 software is written in Forth and Forth assembler.  The Windows
since is 
written in Visual Basic and MASM Windows dlls.

Forth on the 80C32 is a NATURAL.  One the PC side Forth is not suitable
- except for
interactive exploring super i/o chips. 
http://www.smsc.com/main/datasheet.html 

Loring Wirbel WROTE SCATHING articles about NSA when Girish Mahtre was
editor of EET.
But since CMP took over, Loring's articles have been more subdued.

This is the reason I sent Wirbel a copy of my offending tech report. 
http://jya.com/da/whpda.htm

Loring has been superhelpful to see that I am not buried in the Great
Satan's invisible
cemetery. And in one article wrote the paragraph

  Next in my in-basket was a set of reprints from the Baltimore Sun from
the paper's NSA series,   which ran in early December. The series
reveals the setup by the NSA and CIA of a new covert    collection
agency, the Special Collection Service, and details the case of Hans
Buehler, an     employee of Crypto A.G. who was thrown into an Iranian
prison after getting snared in a         Crypto/NSA sting against that
country.  http://www.jya.com/whp1.htm

which was read by Iranian engineers.

A week ago I mailed a copy of the Swiss Radio International tape to
http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm

Lazlo Baranyi plans to post the audio plus translations of the German at
his web site, Baranyi wrote me.

I want settlement, my money and out of this crypto mess.  

Loring Wirbel and EET has been a GREAT HELP. Along with other
journalists, including Pulitzer Prize-winner Tamar Stieber, too.

bill payne


         	WEED KILLER computer interface proposal section 7/27/98 10:11 AM

Solution to controlling and collecting data from the WEED KILLER involves interfacing a personal computer
running a version of the Windows operating system to the WEED KILLER analog/digital hardware.

Windows is not a real-time operating system, therefore  microcontroller controller/collector hardware 
interface must be installed between a Wintel PC and the WEED KILLER hardware.

Essence of the Wintel data collector problem is that Windows 3.x or 9x responds to a hardware interrupt
usually between 70 to 150 microseconds.  In rare occasions the interrupt latency may extend to 1.5 
milliseconds or even longer.  A microcontroller responds to an interrupt in several microseconds.

Wintel hardware controller interface is even more difficult than collection for the reason that the Windows 
operating system only gives control to an application when Windows decides.  In the collection, mode at
least a hardware interrupt signals Windows that the application wants control.  However, the microcontroller
can send the Wintel an interrupt asking the applications code whether there is any message it needs to
send the microcontroller.

Microcontrollers have specialized timers, serial expansion ports and are, therefore, designed to be interfaced to 
analog and digital hardware. 

An 80C32 family microcontroller is proposed for the WEED KILLER application for reasons.

1  The 80C32 will do the job.

2  Multiple vendors of 80C32 guarantee future supply at a competitive price.  Current suppliers include
 Intel, AMD, Winbond, Dallas, Philips, Siemens, OKI,  ATMEL, ... 

3  High-speed parallel port bi-directional IEEE 1284 enhanced capability port 9 (ecp) communications 
hardware between an 80C32 and PC is in the final stage of development.

4  IEEE 1284 hardware drivers are supplied with Windows NT.  Custom assembler dll drivers are available
for 9x and 3.x.

5  A public-domain Forth 8051 operating system hosting a high-level language and interactive assembler with 
complete source code documentation is available on Internet. http://jya.com/f86/whpf86.htm

Hardcover book further documenting 5 is available from Academic Press.
http://www.apcatalog.com/cgi-bin/AP?ISBN=0125475705&LOCATION=US&FORM=FORM2

Only a Wintel machine is required for both hardware and software for the WEED KILLER project.  

Usually a Forth hardware/software development probject on requres a voltmeter, logic probe, and, 
infrequently, an oscilloscope.  Reason  is the INTERACTIVE control of the hardware and software
from a PC keyboard and diagnostic information easily printed to a PC monitor.

Justification for assertion made in the above paragraph comes from Internet.

NASA uses Forth extensively for its space programs. http://groucho.gsfc.nasa.gov/forth/

Ballard used polyForth http://av.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=polyforth&z=2&hc=0&hs=0
to locate wrecks of the Titanic, Bismarck, and Yorktown.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/98/midway

Sun Microsystems workstation boot into Forth then invokes Solaris. http://playground.sun.com/pub/1275/

Adobe Postscript is a version of Forth. 
http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/language/forth-postscript.html

Video game software are written mostly in Forth.

The Wintel side of the WEED KILLER project will be most-likely written in a small
amount of assembler interface code and Visual Basic.

While Forth threaded code software technology is extremely valuable in some settings,
it is not in others.

Java is a variation of Forth.  http://www.mrl.nyu.edu/meyer/jvmref/

Future of Java on Wintel machines is unclear at this time.

For example,

  The hottest items among techies is a browser called Opera.   
  This is a $40 shareware program that in speed and compact   
  size buts both IE and Communicator to shame.  It has a slightly   
  different interface from either of the majors - an interface some find    
  refreshing while other find less than useful.  As it's shareware, you can   
  try and then buy if you like it.  One reason for its speed is that it ignores   
  Java - the Internet's Bandwidth Pig (IBP).   
 
  The Rumor Mill by Paul Cassel
  ComputerScene Magazine  July 1998   
   
Forth executes code High-level at about 10% the speed of a compiled high-level
language.

Speed of execution of small applications is not effected by Forth�s slow execution.

Reason is that initial code is written in high-level Forth.  

Inner loops are then translated into Forth assembler.

Speed is maintained with the advantage that data structures are created an maintained in
high-level language while the interactive operating system is retained for trouble shooting
both hardware and software problem.

Hardware cost of building the 80C32 the WEED KILLER boards is estimated at $10k.

Hardware design is estimated at 1 month labor at $50/hr for a total of $8k.

Software development on the 80C32 side in Forth and Forth assembler, software on the
Wintel side in Visual Basic and assembler, documentation, and training is estimated to
be 4 months for a total of $32k
   
 /\/\/\
end




From nobody at replay.com  Tue Sep  1 08:54:13 1998
From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:54:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199809011554.RAA09212@replay.com>


I believe by spooks he meant that you should go jump off a building before
you further insult the intelligence of the rest of the known universe.  Lord
knows you've already insulted mine enough that I'd be willing to come up
there with you and do the pushing.  Fucking dolt.


At 04:16 PM 8/31/98 -0400, ILovToHack at aol.com wrote:
>Ibelive by spooks he ment goverment agents not a racial slur so lay off.
> 






From ptrei at securitydynamics.com  Tue Sep  1 10:06:57 1998
From: ptrei at securitydynamics.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:06:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meganet redux...
Message-ID: <D104150098E6D111B7830000F8D90AE824061F@exna02.securitydynamics.com>


Anyone want to educate these people as
to the general consensus on VME?


Peter

-------------------------------------
http://www.infoseek.com/Content?arn=BW0169-19980901&qt=RSA,+SDTI,+%22Securit
y+Dynamics%22,+Informix,+Xerox,+Tandem,+Encryption,+Cryptography,+Authentica
tion,+Certification,+%22University+of+Colorado%22&sv=IS&lk=&col=NX&kt=A&ak=n
ews1486

Multibillion-Dollar International Corporation
Purchases the 1-Million-Bit, Unbreakable
Virtual Matrix Encryption to Protect Its
Computers 
10:01 a.m. Sep 01, 1998 Eastern 

TARZANA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 1, 1998-- 

The $1.2 Million Challenge is Still Uncompromised After
Five Months 

Meganet Corp., which challenged Microsoft
(Nasdaq:MSFT), Intel (Nasdaq:INTC), Dell
(Nasdaq:DELL), AT&T (NYSE:ATT), NCR (NYSE:NCR)
and many other high-tech companies with its unbreakable
1-million-bit Virtual Matrix Encryption (VME), has sold and
installed Virtual Matrix Encryption at the headquarters of
La-Curacao, a multibillion-dollar international corporation. 
[...]





From FREE82698 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  1 10:07:26 1998
From: FREE82698 at yahoo.com (CF ASSOCIATES)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:07:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ...Are You In Need Of A Lifestyle Change...?
Message-ID: <419.436039.54271910FREE82698@yahoo.com>



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This is a one-time mailing. When you visited one of our webpages you indicated 
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the intrusion and simply delete this message. 
Thank you
















From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep  1 10:08:04 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEWARE of SnakeOil (tm)
In-Reply-To: <199809010246.WAA26608@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <35EC2A76.2B83@lsil.com>


Jean-Francois Avon wrote:
> 
> SNAKEOIL ALERT:
> Cc: Cypherpunks at toad.com
> 
> - beware of any product that has not been *extensively* peer-reviewed, with *all* the
> source code made public.  Security breaches are *very* easy to overlook and no software
> should *ever* be used unless it was peer-reviewed.
> 
I'm a bit surprised that I don't see quite as much concern expressed
about hardware. If security is the goal isn't HW part of the chain?
Yeah, yeah, I know, there was a blip a while ago about Intel chips, 
Microsoft kernels and keyboard snooping but it had a depressingly short
half-life. Seems to me it would be pretty easy to create rfi on a chip
and get products through FCC approval with NSA blessing. Hell, you could
probably put a good amount of FLASH on a chip and give the OS a nice
safe place to store snooped stuff. The security gaps that could be
created in an operating system are as numerous as scoundrels in
Parliament.

> They try pursue anybody who violates ITAR in a public way.  If I were to walk with a
> PGP diskette across the border outside Cana-USA, I would be liable under ITAR even if I
> never wrote a line of software in my life.
> 
Literally true but we all know the analogy of borders and speedbumps...

> All the govts have vested interest in disseminating pseudo-strong cryptography.  This
> statement is not paranoia, it is recent and regularly recurring history.
> 
Doesn't this seem to point to the need for products with a CP seal of
approval? HW/SW/Tools?

Mike

I think that in the secure communications world I would rather be a wolf
amongst sheep in wolfskins than a wolf in sheep's clothing. It would
reduce the chances of my hide being nailed to the barn door. What I'm
trying to say in a less than literate way is that the issue will only be
closed when there are $99 consumer products that implement secure
systems.





From audiophile66 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  1 12:03:17 1998
From: audiophile66 at yahoo.com (Barry M)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:03:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19980901190338.28710.rocketmail@send104.yahoomail.com>








_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com






From abcmgroup at bc.sympatico.ca  Tue Sep  1 13:25:07 1998
From: abcmgroup at bc.sympatico.ca (pagewstuff)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809012024.NAA18437@mail1.bctel.ca>


Encrypted_Message=On 4 May 1998 02:57:07 GMT, in article <6ijaq3$bb1 at news1.panix.com>,
<The at NSA.sucks> Information Security (= Guy Polis <guy at panix.com>) wrote:
#   Guy Polis (guy at panix.com, eviljay at bway.net) is a pedophile child
#   molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers
#   after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography
#   JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet.

The poster's been awful quiet lately - did the feds arrest him?
Browser=Netscape:Mozilla/3.01C-SYMPA  (Win16; I)
Remedy=Tell the world






From abcmgroup at bc.sympatico.ca  Tue Sep  1 13:25:39 1998
From: abcmgroup at bc.sympatico.ca (pagewstuff)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:25:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809012025.NAA19524@mail1.bctel.ca>

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From abcmgroup at bc.sympatico.ca  Tue Sep  1 13:25:47 1998
From: abcmgroup at bc.sympatico.ca (pagewstuff)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809012025.NAA19697@mail1.bctel.ca>

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From CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com  Tue Sep  1 13:43:19 1998
From: CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com (CTIA Daily News)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:43:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM - September 1, 1998
Message-ID: <199809012041.PAA10746@revnet3.revnet.com>




==========================================
Welcome to today's edition of the CTIA Daily News
from WOW-COM.� Please click on the icon / attachment
for the most important news in wireless communications today.

A new multi-billion dollar industry is here! 
Be at CTIA's WIRELESS I.T. '98
where personal computing and communications converge!

Don't Miss Your Chance -- October 12-14, 1998
Bally's Las Vegas, Las Vegas, NV

For more information, visit http://www.wirelessit.com�
===========================================
 



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From stuffed at stuffed.net  Tue Sep  1 14:39:44 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:39:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FONDLE ME BILL: HILARIOUS NEW DOLL/OVER TWO DOZEN FREE JPEGS
Message-ID: <19980901194916.18753.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


The pics just keep on coming. And so do the amazin but
true news stories, as well as all the other goodies...

+ 28+ FREE HI-RES JPEGS
+ PAGE 2 �SPREAD� - YOU'LL LOVE THIS ONE
+ BEDDER SEX: WORKERS SPRING TO ACTION
+ HEAVEN'S GATE ANALYZED BY DR. SUSAN BLOCK PHD
+ MILE HIGH STUCK: PALAVER ON A PLANE
+ TOP 10 MALE & FEMALE FANTASIES: THIS IS HOT!
+ PANTY SPICE: WE SNIFF OUT A GREAT STORY
+ THUMBNAIL HEAVEN: MORE STUPENDOUS FREE JPEGS
+ TODAY'S SEXY STORY: �THE SWITCH�
+ YOUR TRUE SEX SECRETS: TODAY A SELECTION OF YOUR LETTERS
+ MORE OF THE BEST WEB SITES EVER REVIEWED IN EUREKA!
+ SEXY SURPRISE THUMBS: A SURPRISE WITH EACH CLICK
+ SUPER HI-RES POSTER PIC: SAVE OR PRINT IT!

       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/1/   <----

Welcome to  today's  issue of Stuffed. To read it you should
click on the URL above.  If it is not made clickable by your
email program  you will need to  use your mouse to highlight
the URL,  copy it and then paste it into your browser  (then
press Return).

This  email  is  never  sent  unsolicited.  Stuffed  is  the
supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full
instructions on unsubscribing  are in every issue of Eureka!

       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/1/   <----





From lodi at well.com  Tue Sep  1 19:15:33 1998
From: lodi at well.com (Alia Johnson)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:15:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980901191119.16412A-100000@well.com>


My brother, Carl E. Johnson aka C.J.Parker aka toto has asked me to let
you know that he is in prison in Florence, Arizona near Tucson under
federal charges of threatening the life of a federal officer. He was being
followed in connection with the Jim Bell case. 

He is in medical lockup and isolation, without the meds he needs for his
condition of Tourettes' syndrome. He is suffering but not incoherent.

He asked me to mention Cafe Gulag and John Young, but had to speak very
briefly so I do not know exactly what is happening. He is scheduled for a
hearing in federal court in Tucson on September 4, this Friday. I may be
there.

Alia Johnson






From billp at nmol.com  Tue Sep  1 19:25:38 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rumsfeld Commission report & conclusions
Message-ID: <35ECAB77.299D@nmol.com>


Tuesday 9/1/98 7:54 PM

John Young

Nice to talk to you TWICE tonight.

I did not realize the importance of the documents I was given until 
I read them.

>From page 3

  The Rumsfeld Commission -  the commission to Assess the Ballistic    
Missile Threat to the United Sates

  .  Donald Rumsfeld
  .  Larry Welch
  .  Bill Schneider
  .  Bill Graham
  .  Bary Bleckman
  .  Richard Garwin
  .  Lee Butler

Page 14 reads

  A quick walk around the globe: Iran

  .  Placing exgraordinary interest in its WMD and ballistic
     missile programs

  .  Program benefite from a broad, long-time assistance from Russia.

  .  Development program have taken on a new phase - getting Russia's
     most modern equipement.

  . Getting assistance from China, North Korea, Pakistan as well.

  . Able to pay well for military technology - in $.

...

and ALL OF THIS IS AUTHORED BY Sandia President C Paul Robinson!

Who I saw on CBS TV tonight!

Durham

   H. B. Durham who served as project leader; 

http://jya.com/da/whpda.htm served as Robinson's technical advisor
in Geneva.

Hope jya.com readers enjoy.

I will put the document in an express mailer to you.

Let�s all hope for settlement before this matter gets worse.

bill







From charlsye at worldnet.att.net  Tue Sep  1 20:32:59 1998
From: charlsye at worldnet.att.net (MD Dodson)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <19980902033224.JLEB28209@default>


how do I join?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNca0hLNh2iowZ/KwEQKxxQCgzKYsHhEE71BD9cAV/ODXu9fSqs0Anipr
uLAbQMdQzZIMP0qZcp5nDwnD
=GVxP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From marcmf at 2xtreme.net  Tue Sep  1 21:00:33 1998
From: marcmf at 2xtreme.net (Marc Maffei)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:00:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 
Message-ID: <02cf01bdd623$7fbaf440$532c15d1@marcmaff>


hurray and I am also sorry to give this thread a longer lease in life but
hip hip hurray for the suggestion
-----Original Message-----
From: jkthomson <jkthomson at bigfoot.com>
To: ILovToHack at aol.com <ILovToHack at aol.com>; cypherpunks at toad.com
<cypherpunks at toad.com>
Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 4:13 PM
Subject: Re:


>At 04:16 PM 8/31/98 EDT, ILovToHack at aol.com wrote:
>>Ibelive by spooks he ment goverment agents not a racial slur so lay off.
>
>trust me, it's ok, he was using '32-bit AOL' to post his message, so
>EVERYONE but you realized that he was talking about garbage anyway.  maybe
>AOL64 will have a clue(tm) built in.
>
>
>an appeal to listmembers:
>
>listmembers, can't we make this list 'request for access'?  iLoV2HaCk and
>his AOL ilk are getting a little too 'elite' and 'k-rad' for me. pipebombs,
>posters, spooks, music, what the hell is happening to this list?  I know
>that I mainly lurk, but don't you think that having to request to join this
>list may filter out the worst of the AOL (et al) newbies?  they obviously
>cannot get a clue(tm) and continue to cause a landslide of off-topic
>(albeit funny) posts that ridicule them, and keep this list awash in
>non-cypherpunkish dialogue.
>
>oh, and I am also sorry for perpetuating this thread.
>
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> james 'keith' thomson <jkthomson at bigfoot.com>  www.bigfoot.com/~ceildh
> jkthomson:C181 991A 405C EAFB 2C46 79B5 B1DC DB78 8196 122D [06.07.98]
> ceildh   :1D79 59AF ED75 5945 6003 8240 DA34 ACCA 9DE4 6BC9 [05.14.98]
> ICQ:746241 <keys> at pgp.mit.edu     ...and former sysop of tnbnog BBS
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>The people to worry about are not those who openly disagree with you,
>but those who disagree with you who are too cowardly to let you know.
>=======================================================================
>
>






From marcmf at 2xtreme.net  Tue Sep  1 21:03:04 1998
From: marcmf at 2xtreme.net (Marc Maffei)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DES Ecryption
Message-ID: <02de01bdd623$dbe29160$532c15d1@marcmaff>


The exception that proves the rule

-----Original Message-----
From: FTPPork at aol.com <FTPPork at aol.com>
To: cypherpunks at toad.com <cypherpunks at toad.com>
Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 5:08 PM
Subject: DES Ecryption


>Hey, could anyone tell me what process DES Encryption goes through, or
point
>me to a site with the information?
>
>Thanx
>-Buzz-
>P.S. Please no flames because I am on AOL...
>
>






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep  1 21:22:22 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980901191119.16412A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v04011709b212770a855c@[139.167.130.246]>


At 10:15 PM -0400 on 9/1/98, Alia Johnson wrote:


> My brother, Carl E. Johnson aka C.J.Parker aka toto has asked me to let
> you know that he is in prison in Florence, Arizona near Tucson under
> federal charges of threatening the life of a federal officer.

Oh, boy... Here we go again.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From ckzbyfaxzzz at sprintmail.com  Tue Sep  1 22:37:51 1998
From: ckzbyfaxzzz at sprintmail.com (ckzbyfaxzzz at sprintmail.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:37:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $39-700 Engines
Message-ID: <199809020404.VAA02153@littonlcs.com>


___________________________________________________________
***EXTENDED FOR ONE MORE WEEK****



!!! 700 SEARCH ENGINES                                   MI5

HOME PAGE OR BUSINESS SITE!!!!!!!!*************

HURRY...THIS SPECIAL PRICE WON'T LAST LONG!!!!!  

ONLY $39

(WE HAVE TAKEN THE WORRY OUT OF INTERNET TRANSACTIONS
---SEE BELOW)


Thats right, this is not a mistake, we will submit your Website to 700 search
engines and directories for $39.  

!!!!!PLUS WE WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH A REPORT SHOWING ALL 
SUCCESFULL SUBMISSIONS!!!!



Just print out the form below and fax it us us for immediate processing. (Do not
reply via e-mail)

Name:

Name of Company:

Address:

Site URL: http://


E-mail Address:

Title of site: (25 words or less)



Description of site: (50 words or less)




Keywords: (6 total, most important first)


Phone Number:


Payment can be made by faxing a copy of your check to 714 768-3650 payable to: K.L.E.N.T. (we will
import the information from your check into our check processing software for
deposit into our bank, no need to mail check).

Or, you can pay by credit card, just fill out information and fax your info
to us and we will contact you and give you our secure URL for credit
card transactions...DO NOT INCLUDE CREDIT CARD INFO ON THIS FORM!!

If you wish information, please fax this form with your phone number that you can
be reached and one of our agents will contact you..

Worry free transaction---upon receipt of your faxed check (make out to K.L.E.N.T. ) we will submit your
site within 48 hours...it takes anywhere from 5-10 days for your faxed check to clear
your bank.  If we do not do as we say, you would have plenty of time to stop
payment on your check.  Now,  we are in the position of trusting you, as we have
already done the work and your check has not even been paid...sorry to say that we
do on occasion get a NSF check, however there are many more people that are
honorable and do not stick us with a NSF check after we have done the work. 

Credit card holders are always protected against non-delivery of product or service
through the credit card companys, now we protect our customers that pay by check
as well...I don�t think you will find many companys that will do what we are doing
in order to protect the consumer.. 

We have been in business for about 3years dealing on the internet and know how
frustrating it can be dealing with someone you don�t even know.   I hope that our
offer creates the validity needed in order to provide you with the service that we
provide our customers.

Ken                                                                                           MI5

K.L.E.N.T.

P.S. Reservations will only be accepted with paid orders......Thank You!
Please fax a copy of your check along with the above form....







From s9812127 at postino.up.ac.za  Wed Sep  2 01:49:47 1998
From: s9812127 at postino.up.ac.za (s9812127 at postino.up.ac.za)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: STRESS relief
Message-ID: <E0zE8dG-0003PC-00@postino.up.ac.za>


  
> > This is guaranteed to alleviate pressure in the 
> > boomboom area of your head,
> >
> > HOLD THE DOWN ARROW AND KEEP GOING 
> >
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *     hi people
> > *     hi people
> > *       hi people
> > *         hi people
> > *           hi people
> > *             hi people
> > *              hi people
> > *              hi people
> > *             hi people
> > *            hi people
> > *          hi people
> > *         hi people
> > *       hi people
> > *     hi people
> > *     hi people
> > *      hi people
> > *       hi people
> > *         hi people
> > *           hi people
> > *             hi people
> > *              hi people
> > *              hi people
> > *             hi people
> > *            hi people
> > *          hi people
> > *         hi people
> > *       hi people
> > *      hi people
> > *     hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi peopl e
> > *    hi peopl   e
> > *    hi peopl    e
> > *    hi peop l    e
> > *    hi peop  l    e
> > *    hi peop   l    e
> > *    hi peop    l    e
> > *    hi peo p    l    e
> > *    hi peo  p    l    e
> > *    hi peo   p    l    e
> > *    hi peo    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe o    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe  o    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe   o    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi p e    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi p  e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    hi p   e    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    hi  p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi   p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    hi    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *    h i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    h  i    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *    h   i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *     h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *      h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *       h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *        h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *         h    i    p    e    o    p    l   e 
> > *          h    i    p    e    o    p    l  e 
> > *           h    i    p    e    o    p    l e 
> > *            h    i    p    e    o    p    le 
> > *             h    i    p    e    o    p   le 
> > *              h    i    p    e    o    p  le 
> > *               h    i    p    e    o    p le 
> > *                h    i    p    e    o    ple 
> > *                 h    i    p    e    o   ple 
> > *                  h    i    p    e    o  ple 
> > *                   h    i    p    e    o ple 
> > *                    h    i    p    e    ople 
> > *                     h    i    p    e   ople 
> > *                      h    i    p    e  ople 
> > *                       h    i    p    e ople 
> > *                        h    i    p    eople 
> > *                         h    i    p   eople 
> > *                          h    i    p  eople 
> > *                           h    i    p eople 
> > *                            h    i    people 
> > *                             h    i   people 
> > *                              h    i  people 
> > *                               h    i people 
> > *                                h   i people 
> > *                                 h  i people 
> > *                                  h i people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people
> > *                                  hi p e ople 
> > *                                 hi p  e  ople
> > *                                hi p   e   ople 
> > *                               hi p    e    ople 
> > *                              hi p     e    ople
> > *                             hi p      e     ople 
> > *                            hi p       e      ople
> > *                           hi p        e       ople 
> > *                          hi p         e        ople
> > *                         hi p          e         ople 
> > *                         hi p         e          ople 
> > *                         hi p        e           ople 
> > *                         hi p       e            ople 
> > *                         hi p        e           ople 
> > *                         hi p         e          ople 
> > *                         hi p          e         ople 
> > *                         hi p           e        ople 
> > *                         hi p            e       ople 
> > *                         hi p             e      ople 
> > *                         hi p            e       ople 
> > *                         hi p           e        ople 
> > *                         hi p          e         ople 
> > *                          hi p         e        ople 
> > *                           hi p        e       ople
> > *                            hi p       e      ople 
> > *                             hi p      e     ople 
> > *                              hi p     e    ople
> > *                               hi p    e    ople 
> > *                                hi p   e   ople 
> > *                                 hi p  e  ople
> > *                                  hi p e ople 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                  hi people
> > *                                 hi people 
> > *                                hi people 
> > *                               hi people
> > *                              hi people 
> > *                             hi people 
> > *                            hi people
> > *                           hi people 
> > *                          hi people 
> > *                         hi people
> > *                        hi people 
> > *                       hi people 
> > *                      hi people
> > *                     hi people
> > *                    hi people
> > *                   hi people
> > *                  hi people
> > *                 hi people
> > *                hi people
> > *               hi people
> > *              hi people
> > *             hi people
> > *            hi people
> > *           hi people
> > *          hi people
> > *         hi people
> > *        hi people
> > *       hi people
> > *      hi people
> > *     hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi people
> > *    hi peopl e
> > *    hi peopl  e
> > *    hi peopl   e
> > *    hi peopl    e
> > *    hi peop l    e
> > *    hi peop  l    e
> > *    hi peop   l    e
> > *    hi peop    l    e
> > *    hi peo p    l    e
> > *    hi peo  p    l    e
> > *    hi peo   p    l    e
> > *    hi peo    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe o    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe  o    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe   o    p    l    e
> > *    hi pe    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi p e    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi p  e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    hi p   e    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    hi  p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *    hi   p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    hi    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *    h i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    h  i    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *    h   i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *    h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *     h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *      h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e
> > *       h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *        h    i    p    e    o    p    l    e 
> > *         h    i    p    e    o    p    l   e 
> > *          h    i    p    e    o    p    l  e 
> > *           h    i    p    e    o    p    l e 
> > *            h    i    p    e    o    p    le 
> > *             h    i    p    e    o    p   le 
> > *              h    i    p    e    o    p  le 
> > *               h    i    p    e    o    p le 
> > *                h    i    p    e    o    ple 
> > *                 h    i    p    e    o   ple 
> > *                  h    i    p    e    o  ple 
> > *                   h    i    p    e    o ple 
> > *                    h    i    p    e    ople 
> > *                     h    i    p    e   ople 
> > *                      h    i    p    e  ople 
> > *                       h    i    p    e ople 
> > *                        h    i    p    eople 
> > *                         h    i    p   eople 
> > *                          h    i    p  eople 
> > *                           h    i    p eople 
> > *                            h    i    people 
> > *                             h    i   people 
> > *                              h    i  people 
> > *                               h    i people 
> > *                                h   i people 
> > *                                 h  i people 
> > *                                  h i people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people
> > *                                  hi p e ople 
> > *                                 hi p  e  ople
> > *                                hi p   e   ople 
> > *                               hi p    e    ople 
> > *                              hi p     e    ople
> > *                             hi p      e     ople 
> > *                            hi p       e      ople
> > *                           hi p        e       ople 
> > *                          hi p         e        ople
> > *                         hi p          e         ople 
> > *                         hi p         e          ople 
> > *                         hi p        e           ople 
> > *                         hi p       e            ople 
> > *                         hi p        e           ople 
> > *                         hi p         e          ople 
> > *                         hi p          e         ople 
> > *                         hi p           e        ople 
> > *                         hi p            e       ople 
> > *                         hi p             e      ople 
> > *                         hi p            e       ople 
> > *                         hi p           e        ople 
> > *                         hi p          e         ople 
> > *                          hi p         e        ople 
> > *                           hi p        e      ople
> > *                            hi p       e     ople 
> > *                             hi p      e     ople 
> > *                              hi p     e    ople 
> > *                               hi p    e    ople 
> > *                                hi p   e   ople
> > *                                 hi p  e  ople 
> > *                                  hi p e ople 
> > *                                   hi people
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
> > *                                   hi people 
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> >
> > If you liked this, then send it on to 10 other 
> > people in the next 30
> > minutes and help relieve global stress! 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From stuffed at stuffed.net  Wed Sep  2 02:34:02 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 02:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: THE HAZARDS OF EXOTIC DANCING/OVER TWO DOZEN FREE JPEGS
Message-ID: <19980902071000.18801.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/2/   <----

Welcome to  today's  issue of Stuffed. To read it you should
click on the URL above.  If it is not made clickable by your
email program  you will need to  use your mouse to highlight
the URL,  copy it and then paste it into your browser  (then
press Return).

This  email  is  never  sent  unsolicited.  Stuffed  is  the
supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full
instructions on unsubscribing  are in every issue of Eureka!

       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/2/   <----





From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph  Wed Sep  2 03:58:35 1998
From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:58:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
In-Reply-To: <v04011709b212770a855c@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980902170316.1119A-100000@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>


After all the warnings! thay still do it.
Anyway that's life.




        @@@@@@@@@@@@@      
       ***************
      **    @   @    **
      **      ^      **
      **      U      **
       ***************
         ***********


To do the right thing(s) for the wrong reason(s) is human,
  To do the right thing(s) for the right reason(s) is divine.


metaphone at altavista.net

On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 10:15 PM -0400 on 9/1/98, Alia Johnson wrote:
> 
> 
> > My brother, Carl E. Johnson aka C.J.Parker aka toto has asked me to let
> > you know that he is in prison in Florence, Arizona near Tucson under
> > federal charges of threatening the life of a federal officer.
> 
> Oh, boy... Here we go again.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> -----------------
> Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> 






From billp at nmol.com  Wed Sep  2 06:12:11 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:12:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AES and The Game
Message-ID: <35ED42EF.7D85@nmol.com>


Wednesday 9/2/98 6:26 AM

J Orlin Grabbe  http://www.aci.net/kalliste/

I'm going to write an article for The Laissez Faire City Times
http://zolatimes.com/

	Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms

I have what I want to write CLEARLY in mind.  

THINKING before DOING works better than the CONVERSE.  But this takes
time, of course.

How much $s would such an article be worth?

We have to keep in mind WHY we are doing all of this.  
Like what Baranyi is doing at http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm

I will write when I take breaks from debugging and documenting digital
FX hardware.
$s, again.  The digital FX was HOPEFULLY very well thought-out and will
work reliably
in the field.

Here are SOME of my references.
---
*AES*
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/cryptnum.htm

http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/aes_home.htm
http://www.ii.uib.no/~larsr/bc.html
http://www.jya.com/frog-hack.htm
http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/round1/docs.htm
http://www.jya.com/aes-mail.htm

http://www.softwar.net/hist.html

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/speccoll.htm   
http://caq.com/cryptogate  
http://jya.com/whpfiles.htm  
http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm

                                    HOLLYWOOD (October, 1997) -- London
Records is
                                    pleased to announce the release of
Howard Shore's
                                    original motion picture score to The
Game, starring
                                    Michael Douglas and Sean Penn. 

                           The film is a thriller directed by David
Fincher (Se7en). "The Game" is
                           what begins when a high-powered businessman
named Nicholas Van
                           Orton (Douglas) receives the birthday gift of
a lifetime from his
                           brother he alienated years ago (Penn). What
Nicholas gets is entry
                           into a mysterious new form of entertainment
provided by C.R.S.
                           (Consumer Recreational Services) simply
called "The Game." It
                           proves to be an all-consuming contest with
only one rule: there are
                           no rules. By the time Van Orton realizes he
is in, it is too late to get
                           out. Laced with intrigue, action and danger
beyond belief, The Game
                           ultimately draws to a cataclysmic close,
every step bringing Van
                           Orton nearer to an explosive confrontation
with what threatens him
                           most. 

                           Howard Shore has written a tense and gripping
score. The
                           soundtrack features "White Rabbit" performed
by the legendary
                           Jefferson Airplane. 
http://www.movietunes.com/soundtracks/1997/game/

          The contemplation of things as they are,      
                without error or confusion,      
            without substitution or imposture,      
   is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention.      
      
   Francis Bacon       
    
 Stupidity is difficult to underestimate  
   Professor Robert Franklin Wallace - economics

 Don't search for deeper explanations when stupidity will suffice
   Professor Melvin Gordon Davidson - physics







From billp at nmol.com  Wed Sep  2 08:38:29 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 08:38:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sandia president C Paul Robinson’s August 19, 1998 view graphs
Message-ID: <35ED654B.189@nmol.com>


Wednesday 9/2/98 8:34 AM

John Young

I mailed you 20 pages of view graphs for Sandia president C Paul
Robinson�s
August 19, 1998 speech

  �Looking to the future:  A more dangerous world is appearing.�

Your readers will likely value the opportunity to ATTEMPT to find
out is what on Robinson�s and the US government�s mind.

Money is at the heart of motivation, of course.

If the US is NOT firing tomahawk missiles SOMEWHERE, then this
is BAD for BUSINESS.  No PR s being written for replacements.

  The Tomahawk cruise missile, acquired when Raytheon bought Hughes
Aircraft from General Motors     Corp. in December for $9.5 billion.
Nearly 300 were fired in the Gulf War at Iraqi missile sites,   command
centers, weapons caches, and other targets.  A new version is guided by
global positioning   satellites, a network of 24 satellites fixed high
above the earth and used for navigation.  

  In addition, a General Accounting Office report released last year
said that 
  manufacturers' claims for the Tomahawk, Paveway, and other weapons
were overstated.  
  Boston Globe, Feb. 18, 1998 

   Bill Clinton's $100 Million Crusade Against Ken Starr

                                        by Charles R. Smith

      August was an expensive month for the U.S. taxpayer. For example,
Bill Clinton shot $100            million on August 20, 1998 at
"terrorist" sites in Sudan and Afghanistan. The 79 Tomahawk          
cruise missiles signaled a new "war" that Bill Clinton decided to
declare on terrorism and not       to be confused with the $100 million
White House "war" on Ken Starr. 

      The cost? Tomahawks cost about $1.4 to $2.1 million each,
depending on the model. Moreover,       the Tomahawk price tag does not
reflect the price of conducting the strike such as logistics,      
planning, communications, ship, fuel, and sailor time. If one were to
add in these figures -       the actual strike cost about $1 billion.
...

      The Tomahawk strike also shows the Clinton administration is as
number minded in its war as       the Johnson administration was in
Vietnam. Million dollar missiles on remote Afghan camps are       likely
to be no more successful than B-52s against the Ho Chi Minh trail. There
is an       over-emphasis of "damage assessment" with no regard to
whether the bodies were enemy soldiers       or innocent bystanders.
There is no clear objective and no clear plan for victory. 

Lesson one learns at Sandia when one GETS THE RIGHT CLEARANCES is that
US government creates
its own business opportunities.

  Embassy Bombings 
 
                   Pakistan Gears to Midwife "Get Osama" Operation 
 
                                    Will the U.S. Bomb Afghanistan? 
 
      KARACHI: The arrest and the subsequent statement and evidence
provided by a Palestinian             arrested in Karachi, soon after
his arrival from Nairobi, has pushed US investigators close to      
declare the Afghanistan-based Saudi millionaire Osama Bin Laden as the
man behind the       devastating bombings that killed more than 250
people in and around US embassies in Kenya and       Tanzania on August
7, officials 
      disclosed here and in interviews from Islamabad.  ...

  The News International Pakistan, August 17, 1998 

was SIMPLY GREAT for Sandia Labs business interests as evidenced by
Robinson�s August 19th view graphs.

 Osama Calls on Ummah to Continue Jehad 
 
    Denies Involvement in Embassy Bombings 
 
      PESHAWAR: Saudi dissident Osama Bin Laden for the first time
on       
      Thursday denied his involvement in the August 7 bombings at the
US      
      embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
      The 42-year-old Bin Laden contacted this correspondent on         
      satellite phone at 9:00 pm on Thursday to convey his statement     
      through another Islamic leader Dr Ayman Al-Zawahiri, head
of         
      Egyptian Islamic Jehad organisation which was held responsible
for     
      the murder of Egypt's president Anwar Sadaat.  ...
    
    The News International Pakistan, August 21, 1998

Sandia supervisor James Gosler 

  When Payne balked, his supervisor said Payne "did not choose his
jobs.   
  Rather, Sandia assigns duties to" him. 

http://www.jya.com/whp1.htm

told us, 

  �There are some things the US government does that are SO SECRET they
  can�t be CLASSIFIED.�

Post away  ... and let�s continue to hope for settlement of this
unfortunate matter.

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/speccoll.htm   
http://caq.com/cryptogate  
http://jya.com/whpfiles.htm  
http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm

bill







From Andrew.Loewenstern at wdr.com  Wed Sep  2 09:24:52 1998
From: Andrew.Loewenstern at wdr.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:24:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: e-mail security at the Onion
Message-ID: <9809021625.AA01873@ch1d524iwk>


"What are people doing to proctect their messages from prying eyes?"

Find Out!

http://www.theonion.com/onion3405/infograph_3405.html


andrew





From jy at jya.com  Wed Sep  2 09:59:16 1998
From: jy at jya.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980901191119.16412A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Version.32.19980902122927.0102f9e0@pop.pipeline.com>


Alia,

We've put the court docket on Toto's case at:

   http://jya.com/cej-bust.htm

Also, we've left an inquiry at his attorney's
office (who's in LA today) for more information:

  John G Bogart, Esq
  70 W Franklin St
  Tucson, AZ 85701
  (520) 624-8196

Let us know what you learn at the court hearing
if you attend and give Toto a hug and kiss (and a 
handcuff key). Tell him to call me if he can and wants
to:

   (212) 873-8700

John Young

-----

To cpunks: I seemed to have misplaced Toto's Cafe
Gulag post. I'd appreciate a copy or a pointer. Thanks.








From tleininger at moraine.tec.wi.us  Wed Sep  2 10:30:55 1998
From: tleininger at moraine.tec.wi.us (tleininger at moraine.tec.wi.us)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
Message-ID: <86256673.00601940.00@moraine.tec.wi.us>


I would appreciate it if you could help. For some time now I've read the
Cypherpunks HyperArchive
(http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/), and now I can't get it. I don't
believe it's being blocked on my end - whats up?
Thank's for your time. TLL







From lodi at well.com  Wed Sep  2 11:03:13 1998
From: lodi at well.com (Alia Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
In-Reply-To: <Version.32.19980902122927.0102f9e0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980902105325.28905A-100000@well.com>


Thank you. CJ's inmate number at CCA is 05 98 7196. The phone there is 520
868 3668. Of course you can't call him, and mail delivered to the prison
ten days ago has not reached him.NEW INFO: I JUST CALLED THE ATTORNEY'S
OFICE AND HIS SECRETARY INFORMS ME THAT THE HEARING HAS BEEN CANCELLED AND
THE JUDGE HAS ORDERED HIM MOVED TO 'AN APPROPRIATE PSYCHIATRIC FACILITY'
FOR EVALUATION. THE RUMOR IS THAT THIS IS THE ONE IN SPRINGFIELD,
MISSOURI. CJ HAS BEEN INFORMED OF THIS, AND THERE IS ALSO A RUMOR THAT HE
IS IN ISOLATION AND NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE PHONE CALLS. I WILL KEEP YOU
INFORMED OF FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS.
ALIA

On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, John Young wrote:

> Alia,
> 
> We've put the court docket on Toto's case at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/cej-bust.htm
> 
> Also, we've left an inquiry at his attorney's
> office (who's in LA today) for more information:
> 
>   John G Bogart, Esq
>   70 W Franklin St
>   Tucson, AZ 85701
>   (520) 624-8196
> 
> Let us know what you learn at the court hearing
> if you attend and give Toto a hug and kiss (and a 
> handcuff key). Tell him to call me if he can and wants
> to:
> 
>    (212) 873-8700
> 
> John Young
> 
> -----
> 
> To cpunks: I seemed to have misplaced Toto's Cafe
> Gulag post. I'd appreciate a copy or a pointer. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Sep  2 11:54:41 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:54:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <86256673.00601940.00@moraine.tec.wi.us>
Message-ID: <35ED94D6.7416@lsil.com>


tleininger at moraine.tec.wi.us wrote:
> 
> I would appreciate it if you could help. For some time now I've read the
> Cypherpunks HyperArchive
> (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/), and now I can't get it. I don't
> believe it's being blocked on my end - whats up?
> Thank's for your time. TLL

It has been moved. 

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/

I still read it because even though I have subscribed to the list I do
not get all of the mail that appears in the hyperarchive. The list so
far seems to be only about 40 e-mails each day. Lots of it is easily
spotted junk mail.

Mike





From grace at zk3.dec.com  Wed Sep  2 13:00:42 1998
From: grace at zk3.dec.com (Dave Grace)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:00:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <9809021950.AA05168@kamlia.zk3.dec.com>


Encrypted_Message=On 4 May 1998 02:57:07 GMT, in article <6ijaq3$bb1 at news1.panix.com>,
<The at NSA.sucks> Information Security (= Guy Polis <guy at panix.com>) wrote:
#   Guy Polis (guy at panix.com, eviljay at bway.net) is a pedophile child
#   molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers
#   after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography
#   JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet.

The poster's been awful quiet lately - did the feds arrest him?
Browser=Netscape:Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha)
Remedy=Tell the world






From joeharlin at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:06:48 1998
From: joeharlin at hotmail.com (joe harlin)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:06:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
Message-ID: <19980902200614.28540.qmail@hotmail.com>


Alia,

I am a little confused.

What exactly did you brother do and what would you like us to do?

All the best.
Joe



>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Alia Johnson <lodi at well.com>
>To: John Young <jy at jya.com>
>cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
>Subject: Re: toto
>
>Thank you. CJ's inmate number at CCA is 05 98 7196. The phone there is 
520
>868 3668. Of course you can't call him, and mail delivered to the 
prison
>ten days ago has not reached him.NEW INFO: I JUST CALLED THE ATTORNEY'S
>OFICE AND HIS SECRETARY INFORMS ME THAT THE HEARING HAS BEEN CANCELLED 
AND
>THE JUDGE HAS ORDERED HIM MOVED TO 'AN APPROPRIATE PSYCHIATRIC 
FACILITY'
>FOR EVALUATION. THE RUMOR IS THAT THIS IS THE ONE IN SPRINGFIELD,
>MISSOURI. CJ HAS BEEN INFORMED OF THIS, AND THERE IS ALSO A RUMOR THAT 
HE
>IS IN ISOLATION AND NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE PHONE CALLS. I WILL KEEP YOU
>INFORMED OF FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS.
>ALIA
>
>On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, John Young wrote:
>
>> Alia,
>> 
>> We've put the court docket on Toto's case at:
>> 
>>    http://jya.com/cej-bust.htm
>> 
>> Also, we've left an inquiry at his attorney's
>> office (who's in LA today) for more information:
>> 
>>   John G Bogart, Esq
>>   70 W Franklin St
>>   Tucson, AZ 85701
>>   (520) 624-8196
>> 
>> Let us know what you learn at the court hearing
>> if you attend and give Toto a hug and kiss (and a 
>> handcuff key). Tell him to call me if he can and wants
>> to:
>> 
>>    (212) 873-8700
>> 
>> John Young
>> 
>> -----
>> 
>> To cpunks: I seemed to have misplaced Toto's Cafe
>> Gulag post. I'd appreciate a copy or a pointer. Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From grace at zk3.dec.com  Wed Sep  2 13:07:30 1998
From: grace at zk3.dec.com (Dave Grace)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <9809021951.AA06892@kamlia.zk3.dec.com>


Encrypted_Message=On 4 May 1998 02:57:07 GMT, in article <6ijaq3$bb1 at news1.panix.com>,
<The at NSA.sucks> Information Security (= Guy Polis <guy at panix.com>) wrote:
#   Guy Polis (guy at panix.com, eviljay at bway.net) is a pedophile child
#   molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers
#   after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography
#   JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet.

The poster's been awful quiet lately - did the feds arrest him?
Browser=Netscape:Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha)
Remedy=Tell the world






From CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:14:42 1998
From: CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com (CTIA Daily News)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM - September 2, 1998
Message-ID: <199809022011.PAA21866@revnet3.revnet.com>




==========================================
Welcome to today's edition of the CTIA Daily News
from WOW-COM.� Please click on the icon / attachment
for the most important news in wireless communications today.

One of your customers just made 
three really long distance calls.....simultaneously.
Have you deployed authentication?
CTIA's Wireless Security '98 - It's Just Smart Business.
Orlando, Florida � November 9 - 11, 1998 
http://www.wow-com.com/professional 
===========================================
 



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From glk at idt.net  Wed Sep  2 15:00:31 1998
From: glk at idt.net (Glenn Kaggen)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New York Metro Coverage
Message-ID: <35EDBCB9.36D4@idt.net>


Good Day Seafood Colleagues
I am  looking for additonal products to broker to my customer base of 25
years.  My contacts include most New York accounts on all levels, as
well as good, solid wholesale companies in Boston, Jessup, Washington,
and Philadelphia.  


Please contact me 6 AM to 9 PM, 7 days a week to discuss details

Glenn L Kaggen
Tel 516-822-0758
Fax 516-822-0186
Travel # 516-967-0186
email glk at idt.net





From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl  Wed Sep  2 17:22:15 1998
From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:22:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <e5a62e2c7116d768c08a4cceb778b291@anonymous>


On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, MD Dodson wrote:

> how do I join?

Well, first you inform the refueler of your intention and wait for
clearance. You'll be cleared for either the left or the right hose. Pull
in behind and deploy your refueling probe if your aircraft has one. Ease
it into the basket and hold the aircraft steady until refueling is
complete. 

Another option is to go for a swim inside the refueling tank. You'll join
your ancestors quickly.






From billp at nmol.com  Wed Sep  2 17:39:01 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Girolamo Cardano
Message-ID: <35EDE402.1A93@nmol.com>


Wednesday 9/2/98 6:19 PM

J Orlin Grabbe

I HOPE to write one of the MOST DEVASTATING, and deserving, ARTICLES
ABOUT 
CRYPTOGRAPHERS EVER WRITTEN. 

By introducing to the public:

		MACHINE COMIBINATORICS

I stand on the shoulders on several GIANTS.  

I searched the web for Cardano.

http://www.lib.virginia.edu/science/parshall/cardano.html

And one SUPERB mathematician

  Ore, Oystein. Cardano: The Gambling Scholar. Princeton: University
Press, 1956. 

I may need your help with Zola.  YOU understand math, Zola MAY not.

Best 
bill
---
Wednesday 9/2/98 6:26 AM 
 
J Orlin Grabbe  http://www.aci.net/kalliste/ 
 
I'm going to write an article for The Laissez Faire City Times 
http://zolatimes.com/ 
 
	Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms 
 
I have what I want to write CLEARLY in mind.   
 
THINKING before DOING works better than the CONVERSE.  But this takes 
time, of course. 
 
How much $s would such an article be worth? 
 
We have to keep in mind WHY we are doing all of this.   
Like what Baranyi is doing at http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm 
 
I will write when I take breaks from debugging and documenting digital
FX hardware. 
$s, again.  The digital FX was HOPEFULLY very well thought-out and will
work reliably 
in the field. 
 
Here are SOME of my references. 
--- 
*AES* 
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/cryptnum.htm 
 
http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/aes_home.htm 
http://www.ii.uib.no/~larsr/bc.html 
http://www.jya.com/frog-hack.htm 
http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/round1/docs.htm 
http://www.jya.com/aes-mail.htm 
 
http://www.softwar.net/hist.html 
 
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/speccoll.htm    
http://caq.com/cryptogate   
http://jya.com/whpfiles.htm   
http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm 
 
                                    HOLLYWOOD (October, 1997) -- London
Records is 
                                    pleased to announce the release of
Howard Shore's 
                                    original motion picture score to The
Game, starring 
                                    Michael Douglas and Sean Penn.  
 
                           The film is a thriller directed by David
Fincher (Se7en). "The Game" is 
                           what begins when a high-powered businessman
named Nicholas Van 
                           Orton (Douglas) receives the birthday gift of
a lifetime from his 
                           brother he alienated years ago (Penn). What
Nicholas gets is entry 
                           into a mysterious new form of entertainment
provided by C.R.S. 
                           (Consumer Recreational Services) simply
called "The Game." It 
                           proves to be an all-consuming contest with
only one rule: there are 
                           no rules. By the time Van Orton realizes he
is in, it is too late to get 
                           out. Laced with intrigue, action and danger
beyond belief, The Game 
                           ultimately draws to a cataclysmic close,
every step bringing Van 
                           Orton nearer to an explosive confrontation
with what threatens him 
                           most.  
 
                           Howard Shore has written a tense and gripping
score. The 
                           soundtrack features "White Rabbit" performed
by the legendary 
                           Jefferson Airplane.  
http://www.movietunes.com/soundtracks/1997/game/ 
 
          The contemplation of things as they are,       
                without error or confusion,       
            without substitution or imposture,       
   is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention.       
       
   Francis Bacon        
     
 Stupidity is difficult to underestimate   
   Professor Robert Franklin Wallace - economics 
 
 Don't search for deeper explanations when stupidity will suffice 
   Professor Melvin Gordon Davidson - physics







From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph  Wed Sep  2 18:54:23 1998
From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:54:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <86256673.00601940.00@moraine.tec.wi.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980903092201.21607A-100000@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>


I too cannot open it.
It says in my screen 
      FORBIDDEN 
  well my server is not allowed to access that ~/cypherpunks/
    that's why I cannot go to it.

One question, the site where it is located, is it a university?
What school?

Thank you.




To do the right thing(s) for the wrong reason(s) is human,
  To do the right thing(s) for the right reason(s) is divine.


metaphone at altavista.net

On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 tleininger at moraine.tec.wi.us wrote:

> I would appreciate it if you could help. For some time now I've read the
> Cypherpunks HyperArchive
> (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/), and now I can't get it. I don't
> believe it's being blocked on my end - whats up?
> Thank's for your time. TLL
> 
> 
> 







From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph  Wed Sep  2 18:55:34 1998
From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:55:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980903092201.21607A-100000@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980903093149.22043A-100000@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>


National University of Singapore 

> I too cannot open it.
> It says in my screen 
>       FORBIDDEN 
>   well my server is not allowed to access that ~/cypherpunks/
>     that's why I cannot go to it.
> 
> One question, the site where it is located, is it a university?
> What school?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To do the right thing(s) for the wrong reason(s) is human,
>   To do the right thing(s) for the right reason(s) is divine.
> 
> 
> metaphone at altavista.net
> 
> On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 tleininger at moraine.tec.wi.us wrote:
> 
> > I would appreciate it if you could help. For some time now I've read the
> > Cypherpunks HyperArchive
> > (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/), and now I can't get it. I don't
> > believe it's being blocked on my end - whats up?
> > Thank's for your time. TLL
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 






From lodi at well.com  Wed Sep  2 18:55:39 1998
From: lodi at well.com (Alia Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
In-Reply-To: <19980902200614.28540.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980902185416.759B-100000@well.com>


C.J. was arrested for postings he made involving some kind of betting on
the death of certain listed IRS agents.

There is nothing in particular we are asking you to do; he just asked me
to let people know what is happening.

Thanks for asking. Alia Johnson


On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, joe harlin wrote:

> Alia,
> 
> I am a little confused.
> 
> What exactly did you brother do and what would you like us to do?
> 
> All the best.
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> >Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Alia Johnson <lodi at well.com>
> >To: John Young <jy at jya.com>
> >cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
> >Subject: Re: toto
> >
> >Thank you. CJ's inmate number at CCA is 05 98 7196. The phone there is 
> 520
> >868 3668. Of course you can't call him, and mail delivered to the 
> prison
> >ten days ago has not reached him.NEW INFO: I JUST CALLED THE ATTORNEY'S
> >OFICE AND HIS SECRETARY INFORMS ME THAT THE HEARING HAS BEEN CANCELLED 
> AND
> >THE JUDGE HAS ORDERED HIM MOVED TO 'AN APPROPRIATE PSYCHIATRIC 
> FACILITY'
> >FOR EVALUATION. THE RUMOR IS THAT THIS IS THE ONE IN SPRINGFIELD,
> >MISSOURI. CJ HAS BEEN INFORMED OF THIS, AND THERE IS ALSO A RUMOR THAT 
> HE
> >IS IN ISOLATION AND NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE PHONE CALLS. I WILL KEEP YOU
> >INFORMED OF FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS.
> >ALIA
> >
> >On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, John Young wrote:
> >
> >> Alia,
> >> 
> >> We've put the court docket on Toto's case at:
> >> 
> >>    http://jya.com/cej-bust.htm
> >> 
> >> Also, we've left an inquiry at his attorney's
> >> office (who's in LA today) for more information:
> >> 
> >>   John G Bogart, Esq
> >>   70 W Franklin St
> >>   Tucson, AZ 85701
> >>   (520) 624-8196
> >> 
> >> Let us know what you learn at the court hearing
> >> if you attend and give Toto a hug and kiss (and a 
> >> handcuff key). Tell him to call me if he can and wants
> >> to:
> >> 
> >>    (212) 873-8700
> >> 
> >> John Young
> >> 
> >> -----
> >> 
> >> To cpunks: I seemed to have misplaced Toto's Cafe
> >> Gulag post. I'd appreciate a copy or a pointer. Thanks.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 






From netmedia12 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  2 22:14:29 1998
From: netmedia12 at hotmail.com (Carl)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:14:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sex Story Post
Message-ID: <419.436041.05420139netmedia12@hotmail.com>


Hi, Carl here from An Alien's Guide to Internet Sex

You should not be receiving this email unless you are an adult Webmaster and 
have submitted a link to Alien's.  This is my personal mailing list and was not  
purchased or acquired by any other means.

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After only 1 week, Sex Story Post is getting over 6,000 Unique visitors a day.

This site is run just like the pic post sites but uses stories instead of pictures.  
Studies have shown that visitors looking for stories are more likely to produce sign-
ups.  Why? Who the hell knows, maybe it is because they can read well enough to 
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What does this do for you?  Aren't we all looking for quality traffic?  Also, there are 
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Also come add your link to my other pages:
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	FREE Hardcore Pics and Erotic Stories  http://www.fahking.com/






From nobody at replay.com  Wed Sep  2 22:26:09 1998
From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:26:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Eternity servers, SSL home pages
Message-ID: <199809030526.HAA01214@replay.com>


I was just browsing replay and I ran into a server on it called an
eternity server, That one wont let me use it because of permissions. 
I was wondering if there was another one around that has been tested
recently.

Also I was curious as to whether there were any crypto conscous ISP
that let you have a page with SSL cheap if it was just an ifo page and
not a commercial site.  Any help would be Appreciated.
==

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com






From axel.bodemer at omp.de  Wed Sep  2 23:20:36 1998
From: axel.bodemer at omp.de (Axel Bodemer)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: list
Message-ID: <19980903082028.A28784@omp.de>







From martin.. at iname.com  Thu Sep  3 00:54:14 1998
From: martin.. at iname.com (martin.. at iname.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: setting up a remailer service
Message-ID: <199809030754.DAA01354@web05.iname.net>


Yoppa!

As I am getting a cable modem installed today, I'd like to set up a free remailer service for the internet community. I have a static IP, good disk space and my machine is located in Norway. Ideally I'd like to do something along the lines of anon.penet.fi. Any tips or suggestions are most welcome, but I'm *not* setting up a warez/porn site or anything like that.

Regards

.martin

---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com





From rsriram at krdl.org.sg  Thu Sep  3 02:43:12 1998
From: rsriram at krdl.org.sg (rsriram at krdl.org.sg)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: setting up a remailer service
Message-ID: <19980903174030.B4271@krdl.org.sg>



On Thu, Sep 03, 1998 at 03:54:04AM -0400, martin.. at iname.com wrote:
| Yoppa!
| 
| As I am getting a cable modem installed today, I'd like to set up a free remailer service for the internet community. I have a static IP, good disk space and my machine is located in Norway. Ideally I'd like to do something along the lines of anon.penet.fi. Any tips or suggestions are most welcome, but I'm *not* setting up a warez/porn site or anything like that.
| 
| Regards
| 
| .martin


Check out MixMaster at ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/remailer/mixmaster






From joeharlin at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  3 06:01:54 1998
From: joeharlin at hotmail.com (joe harlin)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
Message-ID: <19980903130120.9782.qmail@hotmail.com>


Alia,

What was he charged with?

Does he have a criminal record?

Where did he make these postings?

Do they think he had anything to do with the death of IRS agents.

Be well,
Joe


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From billp at nmol.com  Thu Sep  3 06:35:17 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:35:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Zurich trip
Message-ID: <35EE99DF.6F6F@nmol.com>


Thursday 9/3/98 6:10 AM

J Orlin Grabbe  http://www.aci.net/kalliste/

Patty and I went to Zurich last April. 

  Implementing Basics : How Basics Work           
  William H. and Patricia Payne / Published 1982           
  http://www.amazon.com 

I interviewed for a job at IBM Zurich forschungslabortorium.
http://www.zurich.ibm.com/

We left from Atlanta.

The Swissair 747 was operated jointly by Delta and Swissair. 
http://www.swissair.com/

From: "Matthias Kaiserswerth"<kai at zurich.ibm.com>
To: billp at nmol.com
Message-Id: <C12563F0:0040D20D.00 at notesmta.zurich.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:54:38 +0200
Subject: Re: Settlement and talk title

  Bill,

  I cannot comment on your legal battles - they seem to be quite
  difficult and require a great deal of courage if waged against a
  government.

  I wish you the best of luck - it sounds like a nightmare or as written
by
  Kafka.

  Anyway, the title for your talk sounds very interesting. Could you
also
  write up an  abstract and make it reasonably technical, because this
is what people
  will  be interested in.

  I'm looking forward, once you have your passport, to arrange a date
with
  you to come here for the interview and to meet us.

  Kind regards
       Matthias

My talk title was

	Dangers in High Tech Espionage

GETTING CAUGHT, of course, is one DANGER in high tech espionage.

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/speccoll.htm   
http://caq.com/cryptogate  
http://jya.com/whpfiles.htm  
http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm

Let's all hope for settlement of this UNFORTUNATE MATTER before things
GET
WORSE.

Later
bill







From lodi at well.com  Thu Sep  3 09:13:06 1998
From: lodi at well.com (Alia Johnson)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:13:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: toto
In-Reply-To: <19980903130120.9782.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980903091142.10914B-100000@well.com>


	

On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, joe harlin wrote:

> Alia,
> 
> What was he charged with?
> THREATENING THE LIFE OF A FEDERAL AGENT
> Does he have a criminal record?
> I DON'T KNOW.
> Where did he make these postings?
> I'M NOT SURE; IN SOMETHING TO DO WITH JIM BELL'S ASSISINATION POOL I
THINK.
> Do they think he had anything to do with the death of IRS agents.
> I DON'T THINK SO. DID ANYBODY DIE?
> Be well,
> Joe
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 






From stuffed at stuffed.net  Thu Sep  3 11:04:31 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:04:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 16% of Americans agree with Clinton: "Oral sex not adultery"/30+ FREE PICS EVERY DAY FROM NOW ON!
Message-ID: <19980903140353.9972.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/3/   <----





From CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com  Thu Sep  3 12:05:34 1998
From: CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com (CTIA Daily News)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM - September 3, 1998
Message-ID: <199809031858.NAA27527@revnet3.revnet.com>



==========================================
Welcome to today's edition of the CTIA Daily News
from WOW-COM.  Please click on the icon / attachment
for the most important news in wireless communications today.

One of your customers just made
three really long distance calls.....simultaneously.
Have you deployed authentication?
CTIA's Wireless Security '98 - It's Just Smart Business.
Orlando, Florida � November 9 - 11, 1998
http://www.wow-com.com/professional
===========================================
Title: _CTIA Daily News From WOW-COM_



�










�





CTIA
Daily News from WOW-COM - September 3, 1998
















CTIA Adds Internet Y2K
Site for Wireless Industry







The Cellular Telecommunications Industry
Association has added a new section to its web site dealing with the Year
2000 computer problem.� The site is designed to be a resource regarding
Y2K and the wireless industry. (WOW-COM)















Audiovox FoneFinder Phone
Will Track Callers' Locations For 911 Centers







Audiovox's new phone to be released in
November will assist 911 centers by dispatching the caller's precise latitude
and longitude by using global positioning satellite service.� The
Audiovox FoneFinder can be used with any wireless service provider without
additional fees for calls that use the GPS feature. (SFGATE)















Virginia Beach Tower
Siting Decision Issued by Federal Appeals Court�







United States Fourth Circuit Court issues
decision supporting city council in a tower dispute. (PILOT)
(EMORY)















The Michigan Technology
Commission's New Survey Reveals That More Than 50 Percent of 1000 People
Surveyed Are Cell Phone Users.







According to the survey, the number of
cell phone users in Michigan well exceeds the national average of 39 percent.�
Participants were selected from within the Detroit City limits and tri-county
suburbs. (FREEPRESS)















Veridian Acquires Datumtech�s
North American Operations







Veridian, parent company of Calspan Operations,
announced that the company has acquired Datumtech's North American operations.�
The acquisition creates one of the leading providers of automatic vehicle
location systems and mobile data terminals serving the public safety, commercial
and consumer markets. (WOW-COM)















Spyglass Develops The
"Device Mosaic Web browser" For Portable Devices.







The "Device Mosaic Web browser'' is Spyglass's
new Web browser for Microsoft's Windows CE operating system devices.�
This web browser provides more creativity in development applications.
(FOXNEWS)















Ongoing Internet Battles
Have Made Their Way To Handheld Devices







Handheld computers are the latest in the
battle for internet browsing despite the slow pace of wireless modems.�
Small software companies have begun producing Web access solutions for
use in handheld devices. (BOSTON)
(FOXNEWS)















Telecommunications Merger
Between SNET and SBC Communications







Southern New England Telecommunications
Corporation's merger with SBC Communications Inc. of San Antonio was approved
yesterday by the Connecticut Department of Public Utility Control. (BOSTON)















Year 2000 Presents Financial
Worries for Federal Agencies�







Clinton administration officials estimate
the Year 2000 computer problems for federal agencies to cost $5.4 billion
in repairs.� The Clinton Administration is working with Telecommunications
groups to protect companies fearful of sharing data that my later be used
against them in liability lawsuits. (WASHPOST)
























For additional news about
the wireless industry - including periodic news updates throughout the
day - visit http://www.wow-com.com.

CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM
is transmitted weekdays, except for holidays.� Visit us on the World
Wide Web at http://www.wow-com.com/professional.

Please Note: Some of the
links in today's news are time sensitive.� Those links may not be
available as news changes throughout the day.� Also, some news sources
may be subscription-based or require registration.
�
















CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM
is transmitted weekdays, except for holidays. Visit us on the World Wide
Web at http://www.wow-com.com/professional.��

If you are not interested
in receiving the CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM, please send a message to
unjoin-CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com.��

*** The term "unjoin-CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com"
must be listed in the TO section of the email. ***�

Please Note: Some of the
links in today's news are time sensitive.� Those links may not be
available as news changes throughout the day.� Also, some news sources
may be subscription-based or require registration.














�






From billp at nmol.com  Thu Sep  3 19:38:52 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:38:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: diplomacy
Message-ID: <35EF519A.51D1@nmol.com>


Zola http://zolatimes.com/

I faxed the abstract to Grabbe.  Young's fax did not answer.

There are, I think, some crytpo problems posted at
http://www.jya.com/crypto.htm
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~fapp2/papers/ec98-erl/

Problems should, of course, be pointed out with diplomacy characterized
in
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/apocalyp.htm

Later
bill

   Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms

		Abstract

  Purpose of this article is to explain the underlying principles

  of cryptography by examples and explain why some criteria
  should be met by cryptographic algorithms for serious
  consideration of adoption.

revision 		date		time		author 		reason
0			9/3/98		6:49 PM		wh payne	first draft







From billp at nmol.com  Thu Sep  3 20:04:49 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:04:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Great Satan
Message-ID: <35EF579F.5FFF@nmol.com>


Thursday 9/3/98 8:53 PM

Greg Broiles
gbroiles at netbox.com

I read

http://www.jya.com/jdb-9ca-gb.htm

One has to be careful with the great satan.

Perhaps one needs a GOOD lawyer?

http://www.mgovg.com/ethics/index.html

I lived in the basement appartment of the Luce's home 
in Walla Walla during my jr/sr at Whitman college 1958/59.

Charlie JR was in the 'goo'- rug rat stage when I met him.

bill

Subject: 
        diplomacy
  Date: 
        Thu, 03 Sep 1998 20:34:02 -0600
  From: 
        bill payne <billp at nmol.com>
    To: 
        eZola at LFCity.com, cypherpunks at toad.com,
ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk, biham at cs.technion.ac.il,
even at cs.technion.ac.il, wpi at wpiran.org,
        abd at CDT.ORG, merata at pearl.sums.ac.ir,
lawya at lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk, sjmz at hplb.hpl.hp.com,
georgefoot at oxted.demon.co.uk
    CC: 
        jy at jya.com, john gilmore <gnu at toad.com>, j orlin grabbe
<kalliste at aci.net>, Ross.Anderson at cl.cam.ac.uk,
Vaclav.Matyas at cl.cam.ac.uk,
        fapp2 at cl.cam.ac.uk


Zola http://zolatimes.com/

I faxed the abstract to Grabbe.  Young's fax did not answer.

There are, I think, some crytpo problems posted at
http://www.jya.com/crypto.htm
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~fapp2/papers/ec98-erl/

Problems should, of course, be pointed out with diplomacy characterized
in
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/apocalyp.htm

Later
bill

   Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms

                Abstract

  Purpose of this article is to explain the underlying principles

  of cryptography by examples and explain why some criteria
  should be met by cryptographic algorithms for serious
  consideration of adoption.

revision                date            time            author         
reason
0                       9/3/98          6:49 PM         wh payne       
first draft







From nue84 at mci2000.com  Thu Sep  3 23:55:42 1998
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From stuffed at stuffed.net  Fri Sep  4 01:56:58 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 01:56:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Babes behind bars: Jailbabes looking for men/Over 30 Hi-Res, ultra-hot jpegs - FREE!
Message-ID: <19980904071000.23727.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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From CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com  Fri Sep  4 12:00:07 1998
From: CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com (CTIA Daily News)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM - September 4, 1998
Message-ID: <199809041848.NAA00707@revnet3.revnet.com>




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From Laurent.Demailly at Sun.COM  Fri Sep  4 16:13:01 1998
From: Laurent.Demailly at Sun.COM (Laurent Demailly)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: setting up a remailer service
In-Reply-To: <199809030754.DAA01354@web05.iname.net>
Message-ID: <13808.27579.860140.831829@pomerol>


martin.. at iname.com writes:
 > I'd like to set up a free remailer service for the internet community.
 > I have a static IP,
 > good disk space
   ***************
 > and my machine is located in Norway. 
[...]

Not to be over suspicious but why would you need
a lot of disk space for a remailer ? do you plan
on logging and recording all the messages ;-) ?

-- dl, speaking only for himself





From info at digfrontiers.com  Fri Sep  4 18:14:33 1998
From: info at digfrontiers.com (Digital Frontiers Info)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:14:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HVS Product Prices Cut by 30%
Message-ID: <v04011704b215d8f158fa@[207.70.117.43]>


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From mgraffam at mhv.net  Fri Sep  4 18:56:23 1998
From: mgraffam at mhv.net (mgraffam at mhv.net)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: setting up a remailer service
In-Reply-To: <13808.27579.860140.831829@pomerol>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980904214154.28228A-100000@albert>


On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Laurent Demailly wrote:
> martin.. at iname.com writes:
>  > I'd like to set up a free remailer service for the internet community.
>  > I have a static IP,
>  > good disk space
>    ***************
>  > and my machine is located in Norway. 
> [...]
> 
> Not to be over suspicious but why would you need
> a lot of disk space for a remailer ? do you plan
> on logging and recording all the messages ;-) ?

He mentioned in the original message that he wanted to run a service like
anon.penet.fi .. 

penet set up an anonymous box, that is .. you can remail a letter through
penet and it would assign a unique anonymous addy for you, and then
replies and email to that anonymous addy would get forwarded to you.

This would require disk space. 

Michael J. Graffam (mgraffam at mhv.net)
http://www.mhv.net/~mgraffam -- Philosophy, Religion, Computers, Crypto, etc
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity.
Immaturity is the inability to use one's own understanding without the
guidance of another. . .Sapere aude! Have the courage to use your own
understanding!" - Immanuel Kant "What is Enlightenment?"






From jkthomson at bigfoot.com  Sat Sep  5 01:18:28 1998
From: jkthomson at bigfoot.com (jkthomson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 01:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (another) reason we need anon servers.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980905011845.006bb77c@dowco.com>


Itex Sues Over Yahoo! Postings

Friday, September 4, 1998; 12:13 p.m. EDT

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- An investment firm is suing the people who posted
online messages on a Yahoo! bulletin board accusing managers of
incompetence, even though the firm has no idea whom to sue.

Itex Corp. listed 100 ``John Does'' in its lawsuit filed this week in
Multnomah County Circuit Court.

In May, somebody using the name ``Orangemuscat'' declared on the Yahoo!
online message board that Itex's ``current management is blind, stupid and
incompetent.''

The lawsuit charges the author of the message with defaming the company and
its president, undermining the confidence of Itex's investors, customers
and barter exchange members.

``Orangemuscat,'' ``Investor727,'' ``colojopa'' and other names are listed
as defendants ``presently unknown to plaintiffs but whose true identities
will be included in amendments hereto when those identities are discovered.''

Donovan Snyder, an Itex lawyer, said it was necessary to sue in order to
find the authors of the message, but he declined further comment.

Itex, a barter exchange brokerage, had engaged in a bitter takeover
struggle with a rival brokerage, and has faced questions from critics who
challenge the way it values its assets. The company previously has turned
to the courts to battle former employees and critics.

Yahoo! disclaims all responsibility for the messages that are posted on its
message boards.

``We have no way of knowing who some of the people are,'' said John Place,
Yahoo's general counsel.

Place said Yahoo's policy is to refuse to surrender any user information
unless a court orders it to do so. But even under a court order, he said
Yahoo! would have a hard time identifying users.

The case is one of many that are pushing courts to define privacy rights on
the Internet.

``I would not want to limit people's ability to post information online,''
said Lois Rosenbaum, a partner at the Portland law firm of Stoel Rives.
``But I would like to see some accountability for what they posted.''

Rosenbaum represented Beaverton-based Epitope in a 1993 case against a man
who posted critical remarks about the company on a public bulletin board on
the Prodigy online service. In that case, the comments turned out to be
from a stockbroker with an interest in driving down the price of Epitope's
shares.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 james 'keith' thomson <jkthomson at bigfoot.com>  www.bigfoot.com/~ceildh
 jkthomson:C181 991A 405C EAFB 2C46 79B5 B1DC DB78 8196 122D [06.07.98]
 ceildh   :1D79 59AF ED75 5945 6003 8240 DA34 ACCA 9DE4 6BC9 [05.14.98]
 ICQ:746241 <keys> at pgp.mit.edu     ...and former sysop of tnbnog BBS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to 
claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." 
		- Cardinal Bellarmine 1615, during the trial of Galileo 
=======================================================================





From cell at cyber-host.net  Sat Sep  5 08:59:33 1998
From: cell at cyber-host.net (cell at cyber-host.net)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:59:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AD: Cellphone Batteries at Half Price
Message-ID: <199809051559.IAA03160@toad.com>


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Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of s. 1618

Sender : Cell Phone Battery Store, P.O.Box 16494, Encino, CA 91416
Phone  : 1-818-773-1975
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From stuffed at stuffed.net  Sat Sep  5 09:51:02 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Man wires his balls to a transformer - holy smoke!/Virgin sex on the web site was 'a scam'
Message-ID: <19980905071000.2552.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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email program  you will need to  use your mouse to highlight
the URL,  copy it and then paste it into your browser  (then
press Return).

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From jkthomson at bigfoot.com  Sat Sep  5 16:00:22 1998
From: jkthomson at bigfoot.com (jkthomson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 16:00:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: request for [cdn] export laws.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980905160024.0070f7c0@dowco.com>



greetings, listmembers.

I have been looking for the export restrictions (if any) that regulate
canadian encryption products.  I have tried searching the net for a little
while, and although I have found a few (contradictory) blurbs on it, I have
found no 'official' documents or links to them.  does this information
exist on the web, and if not, who would be the best department to ask so
that I get the least red-tape or 'runaround'?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 james 'keith' thomson <jkthomson at bigfoot.com>  www.bigfoot.com/~ceildh
 jkthomson:C181 991A 405C EAFB 2C46 79B5 B1DC DB78 8196 122D [06.07.98]
 ceildh   :1D79 59AF ED75 5945 6003 8240 DA34 ACCA 9DE4 6BC9 [05.14.98]
 ICQ:746241 <keys> at pgp.mit.edu     ...and former sysop of tnbnog BBS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Microsoft's biggest and most dangerous contribution to the software
 industry may be the degree to which it has lowered user expectations."
				     - Esther Schlindler, OS/2 Magazine
=======================================================================





From die at pig.die.com  Sat Sep  5 18:49:05 1998
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 18:49:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Zooko on JYA, cpunks, and surveillance (was: Re: Can't tell the kooks without a scorecard? Re: Monkey Wrenching the Echelon Engine)
In-Reply-To: <199809042025.WAA19299@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <19980905214853.A27226@die.com>


On Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 07:38:09AM -0700, David Honig wrote:
> At 10:25 PM 9/4/98 +0200, Zane Lewkowicz wrote:
> 
> >I used to think that the feds would never bother to investigate
> >the likes of us, but i've been proven wrong.  So now i assume 
> >that all unencrypted mail is scanned (especially in light of 
> >ECHELON & UKUSA & such).
> 
> And all encrypted mail is archived.
> 
	And that is the rub.  The real danger of key escrow type schemes
lies in the future decryption under a different political and legal
climate of half forgotten traffic going back years and years - stuff
fetched from vast secret archives of potentially  interesting encrypted
messages squirelled away in the off chance that some time in the future
"they" will be in possession of the key to some of it and interested in
the contents. 

	And until crypto is universally used for almost everything,
saving the entirety of the 1-5% or so of email traffic that is encrypted
on the presumption that it wouldn't have been encrypted if it wasn't
important might be a good strategy, even if only a tiny fraction of
those messages can ever be broken.  And certainly saving all of the
cipher email traffic from people identified by traffic analysis (group
membership, corrospondance with suspicious or known bad-actor people or
places, match to profiles profane and devine, etc) is really a
no-brainer.

	The critical thing needed to protect against this chilling
threat is email tools that provide perfect forward secrecy.  PGP and the
like do not, and capturing thus PGP messages in the hope that later on
one has access to the private key is a very useful practice.  DH key
exchange has been around a long time, but so far the tentacles of the
NSA have kept it from being a standard automatic part of sendmail, MS
Exchange  and qmail...  Certainly one might want to enclose PGP or SMIME
email messages inside the encrypted tunnel to protect privacy in storage
and the "store" of store and forward mail routing, but having a secure
transport tunnel in the first place forces the vacuum cleaner hose to be
attached in quite different places where it is likely to be much more
visible and noticed.  And sure IPSEC would be nice, but simply making
the ESMTP traffic between a short list of mail router programs opaque
would certainly leverage a small effort with a large result whilst 
upgrading TCP/IP stacks and routers is a large effort...

	I've long heard that the NSA fills warehouses with high density
tapes of cyphertext they can't break or don't want to spend the
resources to break on the off chance that later on the key will be
available or the information deemed truly important enough for
cryptanalysis where possible.  And sometimes (as in the Venona decrypts)
this pays off...

	

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18






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From oskar at is.co.za  Sat Sep  5 22:21:08 1998
From: oskar at is.co.za (Oskar Pearson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Quantum Computing progress - physnews update.388
Message-ID: <19980906072053.59022@is.co.za>


Hi

I hope that this is relevant, apologies if it isn't. I am neither a physicist,
nor a crypto-oriented-mathematician... I am a part-time software developer and
Unix support person :)

As for the standard paranoia: trichloroethylene isn't in Ispell's dictionary.
The NSA have obviously infiltrated the Linux/Freeware developer community.
More proof that we are simply trailing behind the NSA in crypto technology.

First link from altavista search for +"quantum computing" +cryptography
Probably irrelevant :)
	http://hwilwww.rdec.redstone.army.mil/MICOM/wsd/ST/RES/QC/qc.html

>From a mailing list I am on:
0--------------------------------------------------------------------------0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:03:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: physnews at aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <199809031803.OAA01296 at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.388

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 388 September 3, 1998  by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
Stein

QUANTUM ERROR CORRECTION has been experimentally
demonstrated for the first time, greatly advancing the promise of
carrying out interesting calculations with quantum computers
(Updates 310 and 367).  Skeptics have maintained that quantum
computers would crash before carrying out a useful calculation since
the devices rely on fragile, easily corrupted quantum states. 
Proposed in 1995 and developed unceasingly since then, quantum
error correction has been all theory up until now.  Aiming radio-
frequency pulses at a liquid solution of alanine or trichloroethylene
molecules, researchers at Los Alamos and MIT (Raymond
Laflamme, 505-665-3394) spread a single bit of quantum
information onto three nuclear spins in each molecule.  Spreading
out the information made it harder to corrupt.  The bit of
information was a combination or "superposition" of the values 0
and 1, so that it represented a little amount of 0 and a little amount
of 1 at the same time.  Measuring the spins directly would destroy
this superposition and force the bit to become a 0 or a 1.  So, the
researchers instead "entangled" or interlinked the properties of the
three spins.  This allowed them to compare the spins to see if any
new differences arose between them without learning the bit of
information itself.  With this technique, they were able to detect and
fix errors in a bit's "phase coherence," the phase relationship
between the quantum waves corresponding to the 0 and 1
states.(D.G. Cory et al., Physical Review Letters, 7 Sept 1998.)

<remainder cut - about baseball bats :)>

-------------------






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From: chargeus at usa.net (Merchant Services)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 00:30:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CREDIT CARD PROCESSING
Message-ID: <199809051930.PAA14411@localhost.localdomain>


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From dcab at cwi.se  Sun Sep  6 01:51:47 1998
From: dcab at cwi.se (dcab at cwi.se)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:51:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: JUST RELEASED!  10 Million!!!
Message-ID: <011328705550122442@ls_flancygerm.com>



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From stuffed at stuffed.net  Sun Sep  6 02:25:58 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 02:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vibrator mistaken for bomb/Keeping sex fresh: Explicit techniques revealed
Message-ID: <19980906071000.20692.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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From d-starr at usa.net  Sun Sep  6 04:04:01 1998
From: d-starr at usa.net (D.STARR)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 04:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [request for [cdn] export laws.]
Message-ID: <19980906110357.28581.qmail@www0i.netaddress.usa.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
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URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/19980906/cba73f40/attachment.txt>

From chrisharwig at hetnet.nl  Sun Sep  6 05:10:26 1998
From: chrisharwig at hetnet.nl (kryz)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 05:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "In dreams begin responsibility" - W.B. Yeats
In-Reply-To: <19980904224426.3.MAIL-SERVER@pub1.pub.whitehouse.gov>
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.0072797a202020203030303430303034@MAPI.to.RFC822>




----------
| Date: vrijdag 4 september 1998 22:44:00
| From: The White House
| To: Public-Distribution at pub.pub.whitehouse.gov
| Subject: 1998-09-04 Remarks by President to Officials of Gateway Computers
|
|
|                             THE WHITE HOUSE
|
|                      Office of the Press Secretary
|                            (Dublin, Ireland)
| ________________________________________________________________________
| For Immediate Release                                  September 4, 1998
|
|
|
|                         REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
|                           TO BUSINESS LEADERS,
|             AND OFFICIALS AND EMPLOYEES OF GATEWAY COMPUTERS
|
|
|                    Gateway Computers European Facility
|                      Santry, County Dublin, Ireland
|
|
| 4:12 P.M. EDT
|
|
|   THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you for the wonderful welcome, the waving flag
| -- (applause) -- the terrific shirts -- I want one of those shirts
| before I leave -- (applause) -- at least shirts have not become virtual,
| you can actually have one of them.  (Laughter.)
|
|   I want to say to the Taoiseach how very grateful I am for his
| leadership and friendship.  But I must say that I was somewhat
| ambivalent when we were up here giving our virtual signatures.  Do you
| have any idea how much time I spend every day signing my name?  I'm
| going to feel utterly useless if I can't do that anymore.  (Laughter.)
| By the time you become the leader of a country, someone else makes all
| the decisions -- you just sign your name.  (Laughter.)  You may find you
| can get away with virtual presidents, virtual prime ministers, virtual
| everything.  Just stick a little card in and get the predicable
| response.
|
|   I want to congratulate Baltimore Technologies on making this possible
| as well.  And Ted Waitt, let me thank you for the tour of this wonderful
| facility.  As an American I have to do one little chauvinist thing.  I
| asked Ted -- I saw the Gateway -- do you see the Gateway boxes over
| there and the then the Gateway logo and I got a Gateway golf bag before
| I came in and it was black and white like this.  (Applause.)  So I said,
| where did this logo come from?  And he said, "It's spots on a cow."  He
| said, we started in South Dakota and Iowa and people said how can there
| be a computer company in the farmland of America?  And now there is one
| in the farmland of America that happens to be in Ireland.
|
|   But it's a wonderful story that shows the point I want to make later,
| which is that there is no monopoly on brain power anywhere.  There have
| always been intelligent people everywhere, in the most underinvested and
| poorest parts of the world.  Today on the streets of the poorest
| neighborhoods in the most crowded country in the world -- which is
| probably India, in the cities -- there are brilliant people who need a
| chance.
|
|       And technology, if we handle it right, will be one of the great
| liberating and equalizing forces in all of human history, because it
| proves that unlike previous economic waves you could be on a small farm
| in Iowa or South Dakota or you could be in a country like Ireland, long
| under-invested in by outsiders, and all of a sudden open the whole world
| up.  And you can prove that people you can find on any street corner can
| master the skills of tomorrow.  So this is a very happy day.
|
|       I want to thank the other officials from the Irish government,
| Minister Harney and Minister O'Rourke and others.  I thank my great
| Commerce Secretary, Bill Daley, for being here, and Jim Lyons, who heads
| my economic initiatives for Ireland, and Ambassador Jean Kennedy Smith,
| who has done a magnificent job for us and will soon be going home after
| having played a major role in getting the peace process started, and we
| thank her.
|
|       I thank you all personally for the warm reception you gave George
| Mitchell, because you have no idea how much grief he gave me for giving
| him this job.  (Laughter and applause.)  You all voted for the agreement
| now, and everything is basically going in the right direction, but it
| was like pulling fingernails for three years -- everybody arguing over
| every word, every phrase, every semicolon, you know?  In the middle of
| that, George Mitchell was not all that happy that I had asked him to
| undertake this duty.
|
|       But when you stood up and you clapped for him today, for the first
| time since I named him, he looked at me and said thank you.  So thank
| you again, you made my day.  (Applause.)  Thank you.
|
|       I'd also like to thank your former Prime Minister and Taoiseach,
| John Bruton, who's here and who also worked with us on the peace
| process.  Thank you, John, for coming, it's delightful to see you.
| (Applause.)  And I would like you to know that there are a dozen members
| of the United States Congress here, from both parties -- showing that we
| have reached across our own divide to support peace and prosperity in
| Ireland.  And I thank all the members of Congress and I'd like to ask
| them to stand up, just so you'll see how many there are here.  Thank you
| very much.  (Applause.)
|
|       I know that none of the Irish here will be surprised when I tell
| you that a recent poll of American intellectuals decided that the best
| English language novel of the 20th century was a book set in Dublin,
| written by an Irishman, in Trieste and Zurich, and first published in
| New York and Paris -- a metaphor of the world in which we now live.
| James Joyce's "Ulysses" was the product of many cultures, but it remains
| a deeply Irish work.
|
|       Some of you will remember that near the beginning of the book,
| Joyce wrote, "History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake."
| Much of Irish history, of course, is rich and warm and wonderful, but we
| all know it has its nightmarish aspects.  They are the ones from which
| Ireland is now awakening, thanks to those who work for peace and thanks
| to those who bring prosperity.
|
|       Much of Ireland's new history, of course, will be shaped by the
| Good Friday Peace Agreement.  You all, from your response to Senator
| Mitchell, are knowledgeable of it and proud of it, and I thank you for
| voting for it in such overwhelming numbers in the Republic.
|
|       I think it's important that you know it's a step forward not only
| for Irish people but for all people divided everywhere who are seeking
| new ways to think about old problems, who want to believe that they
| don't forever have to be at the throats of those with whom they share a
| certain land, just because they are of a different faith or race or
| ethnic group or tribe.  The leaders and the people of Ireland and
| Northern Ireland, therefore, are helping the world to awaken from
| history's nightmares.
|
|       Today Ireland is quite an expansive place, with a positive outlook
| on the world.  The 1990s have changed this country in profound and
| positive ways.  Not too long ago, Ireland was a poor country by European
| standards, inward-looking, sometimes insular.
|
|       Today, as much as any country in Europe, Ireland is connected in
| countless ways to the rest of the world, as Ted showed me when we moved
| from desk to desk to desk downstairs with the people who were talking to
| France and the people who were talking to Germany and the people who
| were talking to Scandinavia, and on and on and on.
|
|       This country has strong trade relations with Britain and the
| United States, with countries of the European Union and beyond.  And
| Ireland, as we see here at this place, is fast becoming a technological
| capital of Europe.  Innovative information companies are literally
| transforming the way the Irish interact and communicate with other
| countries.  That is clear here -- perhaps clearer here than anywhere
| else -- at Gateway, a company speaking many languages and most of all
| the language of the future.  Gateway and other companies like Intel and
| Dell and Digital are strengthening Ireland's historic links to the
| United States and reaching out beyond.
|
|       I think it is very interesting, and I was not aware of this before
| I prepared for this trip, that Dublin is literally becoming a major
| telecommunications center for all of Europe.  More and more Europeans do
| business on more and more telephones, and more and more of their calls
| are routed through here.  You connect people and businesses in very
| combination:  a German housewife, a French computer company, a Czech
| businessman, a Swedish investor -- people all around Europe learning to
| do business on the Internet.
|
|       At the hub of this virtual commerce is Ireland, a natural gateway
| for the future also of such commerce between Europe and the United
| States.  In the 21st century, after years and years and years of being
| disadvantaged because of what was most important to the production of
| wealth, Ireland will have its day in the sun because the most important
| thing in the 21st century is the capacity of people to imagine, to
| innovate, to create, to exchange ideas and information.  By those
| standards, this is a very wealthy nation indeed.
|
|       Your growth has been phenomenal:  last year, 7.7 percent; prices
| rising at only 1.5 percent; unemployment at a 20-year low.  Ireland is
| second only to the United States in exporting software.  This year the
| Irish government may post a surplus of $1.7 billion.  The Celtic tiger
| is roaring and you should be very proud of it.  (Applause.)
|
|       It has been speculated, half seriously, that there are more
| foreigners here than at any time since the Vikings pillaged Ireland in
| the 9th century.  (Laughter.)  I guess I ought to warn you -- you know,
| whenever a delegation of Congressmen comes to Ireland they all claim to
| be Irish -- and in a certain way they all are -- but one of the members
| of the delegation here, Congressman Hoyer, who has been a great friend
| of the peace process, is in fact of Viking heritage, descent.
| (Laughter.)  Stand up, Steny.  (Applause.)
|
|       Now, all the rest of us come here and pander to you and tell you
| we love Ireland because there is so much Irish blood running in our
| veins.  He comes here and says he loves Ireland because there is so much
| of his blood running in your veins.  (Laughter and applause.)
|

|       Let me get back to what I was saying about the Internet -- because
| your position vis-a-vis telecommunication can be seen through that.
| When I came here just three years ago -- had one of the great days of my
| life, there was so much hope about the peace process then -- only 3
| million people worldwide were connected to the Internet, three years
| ago.  Today there are over 120 million people, a 40-fold increase in
| three years.  In the next decade sometime it will be over a billion.
| Already, if you travel, you can see the impact of this in Russia or in
| China or other far-flung places around the globe.
|
|       I had an incredible experience in one of these Internet cafes in
| Shanghai, where I met with young high school students in China working
| the Internet.  Even if they didn't have computers at home, they could
| come to the cafe, buy a cup of coffee, rent a little time and access the
| Internet.  This is going to change dramatically the way we work and
| live.  It is going to democratize opportunity in the world in a way that
| has never been the case in all of human history.  And if we are wise and
| decent about it, we can not only generate more wealth, we can reduce
| future wars and conflicts.
|
|       The agreement that we signed today does some important things.  It
| commits us to reduce unnecessary regulatory barriers, to refrain from
| imposing customs duties, to keep taxes to a minimum, to create a stable
| and predictable environment for doing business electronically.  It helps
| us, in other words, to create an architecture for one of the most
| important areas of business activity in the century ahead.
|
|       There are already 470 companies in Ireland that are American, and
| many of them are in the information sector.  The number is growing
| quickly.  So I say to you that I think this agreement we have signed
| today, and the way we have signed it, will not only be helpful in and of
| themselves, but will stand for what I hope will be the future direction
| of your economy and America's, the future direction of our relationship,
| and will open a massive amount of opportunity to ordinary people who
| never would have had it before.
|
|       A strong modern economy thrives on education, innovation, respect
| for the interests of workers and customers and a respect for the earth's
| environment.  An enlightened population is our best investment in a good
| future.  Prosperity reinforces peace as well.  The Irish have long
| championed prosperity, peace, and human decency, and for all that I am
| very grateful.
|
|       I would like to just say, because I can't leave Ireland without
| acknowledging this, that there are few nations that have contributed
| more than Ireland, even in times which were difficult for this country,
| to the cause of peace and human rights around the world.  You have given
| us now Mary Robinson to serve internationally in that cause.  But since
| peacekeeping began for the United Nations 40 years ago, 75 Irish
| soldiers have given their lives.
|
|       Today we work shoulder to shoulder in Bosnia and the Middle East.
| But I think you should know, that as nearly as I can determine, in the
| 40 years in which the world has been working together on peacekeeping,
| the only country in the world which has never taken a single, solitary
| day off from the cause of world peace to the United Nations peacekeeping
| operations is Ireland.  And I thank you.  (Applause.)
|
|       In 1914, on the verge of the First World War, which would change
| Europe and Ireland forever, William Butler Yeats wrote his famous line,
| "In dreams begin responsibility."  Ireland has moved from nightmares to
| dreams.  Ireland has assumed great responsibility.  As a result, you are
| moving toward permanent peace, remarkable prosperity, unparalleled
| influence, and a brighter tomorrow for your children.  May the
| nightmares stay gone, the dreams stay bright, and the responsibility
| wear easily on your shoulder, because the future is yours.
|
|       Thank you, and God bless you.
|
|             END                        4:28 P.M. (L)








From master021 at email.msn.com  Sun Sep  6 13:02:59 1998
From: master021 at email.msn.com (Jayson Dias)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 13:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More $$ than you Can Imagine
Message-ID: <000101bdd9ce$382ff7c0$ae2e2599@oemcomputer>


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WORKS!

Thousands of people have used this program to:
    -  Raise capital to start their own business
    -  Pay off debts
    -  Buy homes, cars, etc.,
    -  Even retire!

This is your chance, so don't pass it up!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY
ELECTRONIC MULTILEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product that they paid us $5.00 US for, that
costs next to nothing to produce and e-mail back to them.  As with all
multilevel businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and
selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new
multilevel business online (via your computer).  We are not promising you
anything.  You have to put forth some effort to make this business work, but
come on how hard is emailing!

The products in this program are a series of four business and financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive is to include:

  * $5.00 cash United States Currency
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!
The $5.00 is yours!  This is the EASIEST electronic multilevel marketing
business anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!

******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you
don't order them).

     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE
        REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR
        RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose
        name appears on the list next to the report.

     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four
        reports.  You will need all four reports so that you can save them
        on your computer and resell them.

     *  Within a few days you are to receive, via e-mail, each of the four
reports.
         Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to
send
         to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT -- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next
     to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is
     instructed below in steps "a" through "d" or you will lose out on the
     majority of your profits.  Once you understand the way this works,
you'll
     also see how it doesn't work if you change it.  Remember, this method
     has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

    a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.

    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address
         under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the one that
         was there down to REPORT #2.

    c.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to
         REPORT #3.

    d.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to
         REPORT #4.

    e.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed from
         the list and has NO DOUBT collected large sums of cash!

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save
     it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of
this
     letter.

4.  Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
     WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB can be very, very inexpensive,
     and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise.  Another
     avenue which you could use for advertising is e-mail lists.
     You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you
     can pay someone to take care of it for you.
     BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
     they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE
     ON ALL ORDERS!  This will help guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
     with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't
     advertise until they receive the report!  To grow fast be prompt and
courteous.

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT
-  ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA THE QUICKEST DELIVERY
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of
paper
-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the
report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal
address.
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
            JAYSON DIAS
            4793 Birkdale Cir.
            Fairfield, CA 94585
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
            BOBAYAA
            3505 W. Melissa Ln.
            Douglasville, GA 30135
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
            M&J's
            P.O. Box 116
            Whitewater, KS 67154
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTILEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
            TanBsPlace
            P.O. BOX 43365
            Richmond Hights, OH 44143
_________________________________________________________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.  Assume
your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.  (Placing
a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.)  Also
assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
members.  Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below.

First level--your 10 members with
$5...........................................$50
Second level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)..................$500
Third level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..........$5,000
Fourth level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)...$50,000
                     THIS TOTALS        ----------->$55,550 and more to
come!

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit
10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people
to participate!  Lots of people get 100s of participants!  THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can
afford $20).  You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail
is FREE!  REPORT#3 shows you the most productive methods for bulk e-mailing
and purchasing e-mail lists.  Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even work on
trade!

About 50,000 new people get online every month!

*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

 *  TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, and follow
     the directions accurately.

 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when
    the orders start coming in because:

    When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
    product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title
    18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,  Section 3005 in the U.S. Code,
    also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state
    that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the
    instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to help assure your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,
continue advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should
receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue
advertising until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and
the cash can continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a
DIFFERENT report.  You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income,
send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again!  There is
no limit to the income you will generate from this business!

NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business
name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the
Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers
to questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via
telephone and free seminars about business taxes.  This letter has been
edited to help comply with the Federal Trade Commission requirements.  Any
amounts of earnings listed in this letter can be factual or fictitious.
Your earnings and results are highly dependent on your activities and
advertising.  This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied.  In
the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of
any kind, that guarantee is now void.  If you have any question of the
legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for
Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection
in Washington, DC.


*******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works.
It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little
cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security.
          Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

     My name is Frank.  My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD.  I am a
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail."
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing
didn't work ... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had
received over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200
in $5 bills!  I was shocked!  I was sure that I had it all figured and that
it wouldn't work.  I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "hobby."
I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race"
and it's not for me.  We owe it all to MLM.
           Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

    I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even checked
with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.  It definitely
is!  IT WORKS!
           Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

    The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of
money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this
out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
           Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

    Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind
to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy, was I surprised when
I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders!  For a while, it
got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.
I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before.  The
nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the
people live.  There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
         Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

    I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered
if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact
to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another
program...11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made
more than $41,000 on the first try!!
          D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

     This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our
jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do
it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden
opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
           Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!







































From stocks at smart-stocks.com  Sun Sep  6 20:17:06 1998
From: stocks at smart-stocks.com (stocks at smart-stocks.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AD: Free Investment Newsletter
Message-ID: <199809070317.UAA07181@toad.com>


This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301, 
Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of s. 1618

Sender : Smart-Stocks, P.O. Box 130544, St Paul, MN  55113
Phone  : 1-612-646-8174
E-mail : stocks at smart-stocks.com

To be removed from our mailing list, simply reply with "REMOVE" in the 
subject.

Do you need stock tips?

This is an invitation to join the Smart-Stocks Premier Newsletter for a 
free 90 day trial. We are dedicated to providing comprehensive and 
up-to-date information about emerging growth stocks often overlooked by 
most brokerages and stock market research services. Whether you are a 
seasoned investor or just getting started, The Smart-Stocks Web Site could 
help you discover the next Intel, Blockbuster or Merck long before the 
rest of Wall Street!

To sign up for your free trial newsletter just go to our site at 
http://www.smart-stocks.com

Thank you for your time.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





From watch34 at usa.net  Sun Sep  6 21:30:47 1998
From: watch34 at usa.net (watch34 at usa.net)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Two most exciting BREAKTHROUGHS in health Science in the 20th century!
Message-ID: <199809071429.JAA24854@paknet2.ptc.pk>



Subject: TWO Most Exciting BREAKTHROUGHS in
                Health Science in the  20TH CENTURY
   
ONE:  AGE REVERSING MIRACLE---
  Medical Science  PROVES it is now possible to REVERSE 10 TO 20
  YEARS of AGING in as little as  6  MONTHS.
  This PRODUCT releases the only substance in the body which has been
  Clinically Proven   to decrease wrinkles, increase energy, lose fat-gain
  muscle, improve vision, re-grow hair, restore sex drive, reduce cholesterol
  regenerate heart, liver, lungs, kidneys, prostate---and the list goes on---
 
TWO:  IMMUNE SYSTEM BUILDER---Fights COLDS to CANCERS
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  * All types of Cancer--- in Remission
  *CFS Patients--Recovered and Feeling Great
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  *Even relief from Lupus--Aids--Hepatitus
  20 Years and 20 Million Dollars in Research to bring this Product
  to the Public.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
For Complete Details on the Products and/or the Huge Financial
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Leave your name and number--We can then provide Recorded Calls,
Websites, Brochures, Tapes and etc.
              SJC Solutions  1292 Seven Springs Cir.  Marietta  GA  30068
                     To be removed from future mailings, please provide your E-mail address





From roger at opusnet.com  Sun Sep  6 09:37:30 1998
From: roger at opusnet.com (roger at opusnet.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:37:30 +0800
Subject: Let Us Promote Your Site -bfftoehx
Message-ID: <rqrnptjhmskpmxfb>



-------------------------------------------------------------------
cypherpunks  Removal Instructions can be found at the bottom of this page !
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Hello cypherpunks

I found your name on this website if you are not the contact for it please foward this to the proper party.

Your Site Lost in Cyberspace? Let our team of Experts Professionally Submit your Web Page for you to as many as 900 Sites. As low as .02 per search engine submission. 
1: GET MAXIMUM EXPOSURE
2: MAKE MONEY
3: YOUR TIME IS VALUABLE 
4: MISTAKES CAN BE COSTLY 
How quickly can you do it?
We'll start immediately. Submissions are usually completed within 5 working days (Monday to Friday) of receiving your confirmation. 
When will my listings appear?
Some sites post additions immediately, others may take up to several weeks to process submissions. 
How will I know that the submissions were done?
Within days of completion we will provide you with a report detailing exactly where your listing was submitted. If you want to, you can easily go to the sites and check for yourself. Although we can not guarantee that all sites will accept your listing (content may not be appropriate)  Also, we have carefully selected sites that are likely to accept all submissions. 
What's it going to Cost me? 
Submit to 900 sites Only $25.00 One time Special from this e-mail 
if you order in the next 48 hours
8: YES! Submit my Web page for me! 
Don't delay a minute longer! If you are serious about doing business on the Internet, this is the most essential step you need to take after getting your pages on-line. Simply fill out our order form fax it in to us and Start building your traffic today!

-------------------------------CUT HERE-------------------------------------
SECTION 1: Personal Information 

Your Full Name:__________________________
 
Your eMail Address:_________________________
 
Your Phone#:_________________________
 
Your Fax#:___________________________


SECTION 3: Submission Information

Save Time and Delays by following our guidelines closely. If a length limit is exceeded (for example) we will have to ask you to shorten your information - thus delaying the process. Please do not type in ALL CAPS. 
NOTE: Each submission site has different submission forms. We will complete all available fields, however, all of the following information may not be listed at all sites. 
Company or Business name to include in submissions:
___________________________________________

Enter Your Web Page Title:_______________________________
 
NOTES: Your title should be no more than 40 CHARACTERS and include good keywords that describe the content of your Web page. Also, if you want it to appear near the top of alphabetically arranged lists and directories try and have the first letter of the title be an "A", "B", or "C" etc. Whatever you do, it should look like it belongs there or it may get chopped of by a site administrator. It doesn't necessarily have to match your actual Web Page title. In our opinion, it is redundant to include words such as "home page", "corporation" or other redundant words that are unlikely to be searched for, or that that unlikely to entice the viewer to click on YOUR title. You have only a few seconds to get a web surfers attention! 
Enter the URL for your Web Page:___________________________________
 
NOTE: If you wish to have us submit more than one web page please fill out and submit this form for each individual page (simply fill out the form, submit it, make any necessary changes and submit it again). We can submit any page that has a unique URL.

Suggest a possible category to place your listings in:

__________________________________
 

Enter a DESCRIPTION of the nature of your Web page (it MUST be 25 WORDS or less). Use good words in your description so that when a directory is searched your listing will be returned. Make sure you include your most important KEYWORDS as only a few sites have a field that allow us to submit KEYWORDS as a separate item. Don't overlook the obvious (computers, software, travel, book, gifts, etc.)!: 
 


______________________
Enter an alternate Short DESCRIPTION of the nature of your Web page (8 WORDS or less). We will use the long description wherever possible: 

________________________
 

Enter up to 20 single KEYWORDS (separated by spaces) that best describe the content of your Web page: 


__________________
 

Person's name to include in submissions:


__________________________
 
eMail address to include in submissions:


__________________________
 
Phone number with area code to include in submissions:

_____________________
 
Fax number with area code to include in submissions (RECOMMENDED):

________________
 
Toll Free 0800 number to include in submissions (if available):


____________________________
 

Mailing Address to include in submissions: 


_____________________________

SECTION 3: Payment Information
Under no circumstances will any work commence
until a valid form of payment is received!
NOTE:  you can call us in person at our voice or Fax number, OR you may fill out this form, print it out and Fax it to us. 
Lucid Technologies Inc
5646 Wellesly Pk. Dr.
Boca Raton, FL 33433
Our voice number is: 561-347-7304, our Fax number is: 561-347-7304
Also if you would like you site or product promoted by mass email or wish to buy mass e-mail products please call 561-347-7304
Sales Code #DS1021
Method of Payment: We Accept Check by Fax  or Credit cards 

If paying by Credit Card we will need the following information
We accept Visa, Mastercard, Diners Club

Card Holders Name: _______________________________

Mailing Address For Credit Card bill:
Street: _______________________
____________________________
City:_______  State:___________  ZIP:____________
              
To Pay By Check

Please Print Out this Form Take a blank check write void on it  and tape it to this form and fax it back to us and enter your drivers licence number or state id here

___________________________________


Tape Check here

Fax this form to 561-347-7304
------------------------------------------CUT HERE-------------------------------------
The Sender Of this E-mail is a Member of the Internet responsible marketers (I.R.M.A) Association #12995
The Mailing List that you are being mailed from was filtered against
the Global Remove List at: http://remove-list.com
Remove-List is a free public service offering to help the general public
get removed from bulk mailings lists and has not sent this message. If 
you want their help please add your name to their list and we you will 
not receive a bulk email from us or any other ethical bulk emailer.

Also if you wish to have your product or service promoted by Bulk mail please call 561-347-7304







From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Sep  6 09:46:07 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:46:07 +0800
Subject: IP: Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of  Citizenship
Message-ID: <v0401173cb2186ae5e832@[139.167.130.246]>




--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com
X-Sender: believer at telepath.com
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 11:29:29 -0500
To: believer at telepath.com
From: believer at telepath.com
Subject: IP: Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of
  Citizenship
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com
Precedence: list
Reply-To: believer at telepath.com

Source:  New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/yr/mo/cyber/articles/06encrypt.html

September 6, 1998

Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of Citizenship

By PETER WAYNER

Most people who leave the United States and move to the
Caribbean dream of the freedom of perfect beaches, warm
winters and tropical fruits. Vince Cate says he sees a world where he has
complete freedom to write computer software and send it around the
world.

In 1994, Cate moved to
Anguilla and helped bring
Internet service to the tiny
island. Last Sunday night, he
went a step further and flew to
Barbados, site of the nearest
American consulate, to fill out
the paperwork to renounce his
U.S. citizenship.

Cate, an encryption expert and
one of the sponsors of an
annual academic conference on
financial cryptography in Anguilla, said he made the decision because he
is setting up a new company, Secure Accounts, that will design and build
basic software to handle electronic transactions. The software will rely
heavily on encryption to scramble the data traveling between users in
order to prevent fraud, theft and embezzlement. After renouncing his
citizenship, Cate said in an e-mail message that he wanted "to be free
from the silly U.S. laws on crypto."

Normally, setting up an international company does not require forgoing
citizenship in the United States, but Cate's expertise in creating
encryption software places him in a special class. If he were to offer any
advice to non-U.S. citizens about the encryption work built into his
financial transaction software, he would violate U.S. laws, which treat the
transfer of such encryption as illegal international arms traffic. These laws
apply throughout the world and are intended to stop U.S. citizens from
assisting others in developing encryption software.

"I'm not actually writing any crypto code," Cate said in a telephone
interview on Thursday. "But I'm supervising people who are."

The U.S. government treats secret coding software in the same way it
treats howitzers, tanks and chemical weapons because it can allow
foreigners to hide their communications from U.S. intelligence-gathering
organizations. In past wars, the United States gained important
advantages in the field of battle through carefully gathered information,
and the government does not want to lose what it sees as technical high
ground.

Many American software companies, however, see themselves losing
market share to foreign competitors who are able to create encryption
products unhampered by U.S. laws. They argue that good cryptographic
expertise is already well distributed around the world and that the laws
only give foreign competitors an advantage.

"We can provide a solution that works over the whole planet." Cate said
of his company. "U.S. companies can only provide a solution that is U.S.
only. We certainly have a competitive edge by being offshore."

Recently, many leading software companies like Sun Microsystems and
C2 Net have opened branches outside the United States, hiring foreign
nationals to do the work. This has required a complicated dance to avoid
breaking U.S. export laws like the ones that Cate is escaping.

Steve Walker, the former president of the encryption manufacturer
Trusted Information Systems, said of Cate's move, "All of us have
thought from time to time that we're fed up with things, but in reality it
doesn't accomplish much and you give up a lot."

Sameer Parekh, the president of the Web server company C2 Net, said:
"I think it's essential if you want business that you're doing your
development overseas. It's pretty clear to anyone internationally that
anything exportable [from the United States] is a joke."

C2 Net has development offices in Anguilla and Newbury, England.
Parekh says that there is great demand overseas for programmers who
know cryptography.

Walker agreed that American companies are hurt by the existing laws.
"There are foreign companies out there who are doing very well," he said,
"in part because they're selling products out there that the U.S. can't sell."

Rozell Thompson, a lawyer who specializes in negotiating export licenses,
said of Cate's decision: " I think that's pretty unnecessary in this
particular
case. If you're developing crypto for financial applications, it's exportable
anyways. There's a recognition that cryptography for electronic
commerce applications is going to be exportable."

The government is more lenient with software used by banks and other
financial institutions, in part because it recognizes the great need for such
software and in part because it already receives reports about much of
the transaction data cloaked by the encryption. Thompson said that Cate
would probably have been able to negotiate some sort of license with the
U.S. government, although this would have taken months and would
need to be repeated for each new project.

Cate's move also illuminates a bit of the international market for
citizenship. Before renouncing his U.S. citizenship, Cate became a citizen
of Mozambique for a fee of about $5,000. "This makes me an
American-African," he joked.

Cate's current home, Anguilla, requires people to wait 15 years before
applying for citizenship. He moved there in 1994 and has worked to
establish strong ties. In his spare time, he runs a computer club that
places old computers in the island's schools. "The computer club is also
my best source of talent searching," he said. "I have hired three students
right out of high school because I knew them from the computer club."

Edward Betancourt, a lawyer for the U.S. Department of State, said that
the notion that a person could freely choose their citizenship dates back
to the war of 1812, when British warships would often capture
Americans under the argument that they were really British subjects. He
said: "Most people seem to renounce for family reasons. They haven't
lived in the U.S. for some time and they don't want to deal with another
bureaucracy. Whether a person articulates [the decision] to us or not is
up to them. In most instances, people say 'I'm grateful to the U.S. and it's
not done in anger.'"

In 1996, the latest year for which data is available, 612 people lost their
citizenship. This number includes people like Cate who renounced their
citizenship, as well as others who expatriated themselves by serving in
foreign governments. The government requires a lengthy interview, in part
to determine whether people are leaving for tax reasons and to ensure
that the decision is made correctly.

Right now, Cate sees several advantages in his choice. "There's less
chance of getting in any trouble with the U.S. government and there's also
less chance of getting shot by a terrorist," he said, referring to the recent
actions targeting U.S. citizens.

 Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company
-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------




**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
     majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
     (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address
**********************************************
www.telepath.com/believer
**********************************************

--- end forwarded text


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From Me2again3 at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 01:19:06 1998
From: Me2again3 at aol.com (Me2again3 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:19:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MORE MONEY THAN YOU CAN SPEND!!!
Message-ID: <79fe2d38.35f38fd2@aol.com>


WAIT!
Don�t Delete this message.  I know what you�re probably thinking, but think
again.  This is without a doubt the best way to make money I have ever tried
and you owe it to yourself to at least try it.  You have practically nothing
to lose ( It doesn�t even take very much time) and so much to gain.  If you
will read this letter and do exactly as it says, you will soon find that life
is good....very good!


read on!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is a LEGAL, MONEYMAKING PHENOMENON.
PRINT this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY
ELECTRONIC MULTILEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product that they paid us $5.00 US for, that
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The products in this program are a series of four business and financial
reports costing $5.00 each.  Each order you receive is to include:

  * $5.00 cash United States Currency
  * The name and number of the report they are ordering
  * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered.

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FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND
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******* I  N  S  T  R  U  C  T  I  O  N  S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you
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     *  For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE        
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        RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose  
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     *  When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four   
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     *  Within a few days you are to receive, via e-mail, each of the four
reports.
         Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send
         to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2.  IMPORTANT -- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
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    b.  After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address
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    c.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to        
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    d.  Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to        
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    e.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed from     
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Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!!       

3.  Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save
     it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this
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5.  For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report
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------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------
***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

Notes:
-  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT
-  ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA THE QUICKEST DELIVERY
-  Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of
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-  On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the
report you are ordering, (b)
your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address.
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
	Me2Again3
	4205 NE 130th AVE.
	Vancouver, WA. 98682
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM
             JAYSON DIAS
            4793 Birkdale Cir.
            Fairfield, CA 94585
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
            BOBAYAA
	3505 W. Melissa Ln.
	Douglasville, GA 30135
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTILEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
            :M&J's
            P.O. Box 116
            Whitewater, KS
_________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.  Assume
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 *  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when      
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    also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state 
    that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."     

 *  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

 *  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the        
    instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!     

 *  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

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If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue
advertising until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at
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THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a
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NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name,
how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small
Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to
questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone
and free seminars about business taxes.  This letter has been edited to help
comply with the Federal Trade
Commission requirements.  Any amounts of earnings listed in this letter can be
factual or fictitious.  Your earnings and results are highly dependent on your
activities and advertising.  This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor
implied.  In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a
guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void.  If you have any question
of the legality of this letter
contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade
Commission Bureau of consumer Protection in Washington, DC.

*******T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S*******

     This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work
and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it works




From gwb at gwb.com.au  Mon Sep  7 02:01:58 1998
From: gwb at gwb.com.au (Global Web Builders)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 02:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: One Nation's Primary Industry Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980907090341.008d8474@gwb.com.au>


Dear One Nation supporter in NSW

Pauline Hanson's One Nation has just released its Primary Industry policy.

Please view:

http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/policy/dpi.html

for details

GWB



Scott Balson






From edsmith at IntNet.net  Sun Sep  6 12:26:07 1998
From: edsmith at IntNet.net (Edwin E. Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 03:26:07 +0800
Subject: "In dreams begin responsibility" - W.B. Yeats
In-Reply-To: <19980904224426.3.MAIL-SERVER@pub1.pub.whitehouse.gov>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980906142140.008f3740@mailhost.IntNet.net>



At 06:22 PM 9/5/98 -0000, you wrote:
>
>
>----------
>| Date: vrijdag 4 september 1998 22:44:00
>| From: The White House
>| To: Public-Distribution at pub.pub.whitehouse.gov
>| Subject: 1998-09-04 Remarks by President to Officials of Gateway Computers
>|

---crap cut---


I thought you were dead.





From guy at panix.com  Sun Sep  6 13:10:07 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 04:10:07 +0800
Subject: Thoughtcrime
Message-ID: <199809062006.QAA12936@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: Ray Arachelian <sunder at brainlink.com>
   >
   >   IMHO, it shouldn't matter to us who is arrested, whether Jim Bell, Toto,
   >   Anonymous, or Vulis if the crime is nothing more than thoughtcrime.

Whether something is "thoughtcrime" can be shades of grey,
when it involves talk of threats of violence.

Thoughtcrime: arrested for possessing or viewing certain images of sex.

1/4 shade of grey: lottery talk to terminate government workers.

1/2 shade of grey: above person also caught hassling government employees.
   (I haven't really followed the Bell case; wasn't he caught stink-bombing
    IRS offices or something?

3/4 shade of grey: a magazine accepting an ad for ~"killer for hire".

black: Vulis sending threats in my name.

---guy, Vulis AntiMatter





From guy at panix.com  Sun Sep  6 13:15:17 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 04:15:17 +0800
Subject: 090498_crypto
Message-ID: <199809062012.QAA00594@panix7.panix.com>



Ying:

   >   From: Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
   >
   >      Tauzin: FBI won't get crypto key and more on high-tech and Capitol Hill 
   >      September 3, 1998 5:55 PM PT
   >      Updated at 6:58 PM PT
   >      
   >      SAN FRANCISCO -- An influential Congressman says Congress is close to
   >      resolving the bitter dispute over encryption software, and it looks as
   >      though it will be decided in favor of the high-tech industry.
   >      
   >      U.S. Rep. Bill Tauzin, R-La., said flatly that "we're not going to
   >      give the FBI the keys to the encryption system." The remark came as
   >      part of a wide-ranging interview with ZDNN.

Yang:

Subject: Terrorist FBI, on Terrorism
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:58:23 EDT

Statement for the Record
FBI Director Louis J. Freeh before the Senate Judiciary Committee,
September 3, 1998

Good morning Chairman Hatch and members of the judiciary committee. I
am pleased to be with you this morning as you explore the U.S.
Government's response to international terrorism.

[snip]

THE FUTURE

Would like to close by talking briefly about steps we can take to
further strengthen our abilities to prevent and investigate terrorist
activity.

ENCRYPTION

One of the most important of these steps involves the FBI's encryption
initiative. Communication is central to any collaborative effort --
including criminal conspiracies. Like most criminals, terrorists are
naturally reluctant to put the details of their plots down on paper.
Thus, they generally depend on oral or electronic communication to
formulate the details of their terrorist activities.

For this reason, the law enforcement community is very concerned about
the serious threat posed by the proliferation of encryption
technology. Current standards do not allow for law enforcement access
or the timely decryption of critical evidence obtained through lawful
electronic surveillance or search and seizures.

The FBI supports a balanced encryption policy that satisfies fourth
amendment concerns for privacy, the commercial needs of industry for
robust encryption, and the government's public safety and national
security needs.

The encryption capabilities available to criminals and terrorists
today effectively thwart the ability of law enforcement agencies to
implement the court-ordered surveillance techniques that have helped
put some of the nation's most dangerous offenders behind bars. Whether
a state police department is racing the clock to find a kidnapped
child or the FBI is attempting to track and prevent the destructive
ambitions of an international terrorist group, the need for timely
access to legally obtained electronic surveillance cannot be
overstated.

[snip]

EXPANSION OF FBI LEGATS

Likewise, the expansion of the number of FBI LEGATS around the world
has enhanced the ability of the FBI to prevent, respond to, and
investigate terrorist acts committed by international terrorists
against U.S. Interests worldwide. As evidenced by developments in the
embassy bombing cases in East Africa, the ability to bring
investigative resources to bear quickly in the aftermath of a
terrorist act can have significant impact on our ability to identify
those responsible. I encourage Congress to support our efforts to
counter the international terrorist threat by continuing to support
expansion of our LEGAT program.

[snip]





From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Sep  6 13:57:46 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 04:57:46 +0800
Subject: "Einstein's degree wasn't honorary...."
In-Reply-To: <199809050213.VAA10742@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04011742b218a440643b@[139.167.130.246]>



...says Jim Choate from the bowels of my kill file.


I believe I was talking about his doctorate, which, I think you'll see, was
in fact given to him on the strength of his already published work, by a
school in which he wasn't enrolled.

I would call that, no matter the rigor attached to the degree and the
quality of the school handing it out -- both of which were considerable, if
I remember -- an "honorary" doctorate.

As honorary degrees go, the Swiss school which did confer a doctorate upon
Einstein, and upon Diffie as well, I think, was supposed to be about the
best one you can get.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Sep  6 14:28:50 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 05:28:50 +0800
Subject: Einsteins Doctorate
Message-ID: <199809062144.QAA00440@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://tesuque.cs.sandia.gov/~bbooth/docs/einstein/einachievements.html

> Einstein worked at the patent office in Bern, Germany from 1902 to 1909. While
> he was there, he completed many publications of his theories concerning
> physics. He finished these on his own with no help from any scientific
> literature or colleagues. Eins tein earned a doctorate from the University of
> Zurich in 1905. In 1908, he became a lecturer at the Universtiy of Bern, and in
> the following year became professor of physics at the University of Zurich.

Nothing here or anywhere else I can find about Einstein getting an honorary
anything other than a membership in the New York Plumbers Union after Albert
had made a comment about being a plumber after being asked what he would do
if he didn't do physics.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                         To understand is to invent

                                       Jean Piaget

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Sep  6 14:36:35 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 05:36:35 +0800
Subject: Einstein, more specific about degree
Message-ID: <199809062153.QAA00511@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/3555/einwho2.html

>    Einstein as a patent clerk Albert Einstein returned to the Zurich
>    Polytechnic, after attending secondary school at Arau and graduated
>    there in the spring of 1900 as a secondary school teacher of
>    mathematics and physics. By then he had given up German citizenship in
>    favor of Swiss, to avoid the draft. He worked about two month as a
>    mathematics teacher, before he was employed as examiner at the Swiss
>    patent office in Bern. Having now a certain economic security he
>    married Mileva Maric, his university girlfriend three years later.
>    
>    Einstein became father in 1904 when his wife gave birth to his son
>    Hans Albert.
>    
>    Early in 1905 he published a thesis, "A New Determination of Molecular
>    Dimensions" in the prestigious physics monthly "Analen der Physik"
>    which won him a Ph.D. from the University and was the begin of the end
>    for the old view of the universe. Previous 


    ____________________________________________________________________

                         To understand is to invent

                                       Jean Piaget

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ulf at fitug.de  Sun Sep  6 16:54:14 1998
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:54:14 +0800
Subject: ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions
In-Reply-To: <199809011443.KAA23307@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <m0zFoWr-0003bcC@ulf.mali.sub.org>



>From the IETF's IPSEC Working Group:

	Title		: ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions
	Author(s)	: T. Markham
	Filename	: draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 31-Aug-98
	
    This document describes the proposed approach for negotiating and
    exchanging key recovery information within the Internet Security
    Association Key Management Protocol (ISAKMP).

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Sep  6 18:32:07 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:32:07 +0800
Subject: Last Einstein & his degree...
Message-ID: <199809070147.UAA00864@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://www.humboldt1.com/~gralsto/einstein/early.html

>    After two years he obtained a post at the Swiss patent office in Bern.
>    The patent-office work required Einstein's careful attention, but
>    while employed (1902-09) there, he completed an astonishing range of
>    publications in theoretical physics. For the most part these texts
>    were written in his spare time and without the benefit of close
>    contact with either the scientific literature or theoretician
>    colleagues. Einstein submitted one of his scientific papers to the
>    University of Zurich to obtain a Ph.D. degree in 1905. In 1908 he sent
>    a second paper to the University of Bern and became a lecturer there.
>    The next year Einstein received a regular appointment as associate
>    professor of physics at the University of Zurich.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at pathfinder.com  Sun Sep  6 19:15:27 1998
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:15:27 +0800
Subject: 090498_crypto
In-Reply-To: <199809062012.QAA00594@panix7.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980906221144.24713B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>



Crypto came up a couple times during Q&A as well. 

-Declan


On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Information Security wrote:

> Ying:
> 
>    >   From: Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
>    >
>    >      Tauzin: FBI won't get crypto key and more on high-tech and Capitol Hill 
>    >      September 3, 1998 5:55 PM PT
>    >      Updated at 6:58 PM PT
>    >      
>    >      SAN FRANCISCO -- An influential Congressman says Congress is close to
>    >      resolving the bitter dispute over encryption software, and it looks as
>    >      though it will be decided in favor of the high-tech industry.
>    >      
>    >      U.S. Rep. Bill Tauzin, R-La., said flatly that "we're not going to
>    >      give the FBI the keys to the encryption system." The remark came as
>    >      part of a wide-ranging interview with ZDNN.
> 
> Yang:
> 
> Subject: Terrorist FBI, on Terrorism
> Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:58:23 EDT
> 
> Statement for the Record
> FBI Director Louis J. Freeh before the Senate Judiciary Committee,
> September 3, 1998
> 
> Good morning Chairman Hatch and members of the judiciary committee. I
> am pleased to be with you this morning as you explore the U.S.
> Government's response to international terrorism.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> THE FUTURE
> 
> Would like to close by talking briefly about steps we can take to
> further strengthen our abilities to prevent and investigate terrorist
> activity.
> 
> ENCRYPTION
> 
> One of the most important of these steps involves the FBI's encryption
> initiative. Communication is central to any collaborative effort --
> including criminal conspiracies. Like most criminals, terrorists are
> naturally reluctant to put the details of their plots down on paper.
> Thus, they generally depend on oral or electronic communication to
> formulate the details of their terrorist activities.
> 
> For this reason, the law enforcement community is very concerned about
> the serious threat posed by the proliferation of encryption
> technology. Current standards do not allow for law enforcement access
> or the timely decryption of critical evidence obtained through lawful
> electronic surveillance or search and seizures.
> 
> The FBI supports a balanced encryption policy that satisfies fourth
> amendment concerns for privacy, the commercial needs of industry for
> robust encryption, and the government's public safety and national
> security needs.
> 
> The encryption capabilities available to criminals and terrorists
> today effectively thwart the ability of law enforcement agencies to
> implement the court-ordered surveillance techniques that have helped
> put some of the nation's most dangerous offenders behind bars. Whether
> a state police department is racing the clock to find a kidnapped
> child or the FBI is attempting to track and prevent the destructive
> ambitions of an international terrorist group, the need for timely
> access to legally obtained electronic surveillance cannot be
> overstated.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> EXPANSION OF FBI LEGATS
> 
> Likewise, the expansion of the number of FBI LEGATS around the world
> has enhanced the ability of the FBI to prevent, respond to, and
> investigate terrorist acts committed by international terrorists
> against U.S. Interests worldwide. As evidenced by developments in the
> embassy bombing cases in East Africa, the ability to bring
> investigative resources to bear quickly in the aftermath of a
> terrorist act can have significant impact on our ability to identify
> those responsible. I encourage Congress to support our efforts to
> counter the international terrorist threat by continuing to support
> expansion of our LEGAT program.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 





From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep  6 20:06:10 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:06:10 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <199809062012.QAA00594@panix7.panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03130307b218f992deb9@[209.66.100.36]>




>> Subject: Terrorist FBI, on Terrorism
>> Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:58:23 EDT
>>
>> Statement for the Record
>> FBI Director Louis J. Freeh before the Senate Judiciary Committee,
>> September 3, 1998

>> The FBI supports a balanced encryption policy that satisfies fourth
>> amendment concerns for privacy, the commercial needs of industry for
>> robust encryption, and the government's public safety and national
>> security needs.

For the Nth time, let me restate the obvious: all current crypto
restrictions being discussed involve _exports_. There are no domestic
restrctictions whatsoever on domestic use of crypto. Any of us, even
resident aliens, tourists, terrorists, etc. are perfectly free to use PGP,
one time pads, stego, and even Meganet Snake Oil Unbreakable Crypto.

There are, officially, no proposals on the table to limit speech within the
U.S. by limiting the types and forms of language may use. There is the SAFE
bill, which stands zero chance of passing, but this involves relaxing
export requirements (though I expect compromises added, such as the
felonization of crypto use in a crime, are an unwelcome step toward
domestic restrictions).

But it bears constant repeating, especially to the skeptical, that there
are NO DOMESTIC CRYPTO LAWS. Unlike some other countries, the fascists have
not yet managed to get a foothold in the attempt to limit use of crypto by
the citizen-units.

We all know this, but Freeh and Company continue to mumble about "meeting
the legitmate needs of law enforcement." What can they be speaking of?

And since the Fourth Amendment is an internal U.S. thing (not counting
limited applicability to some foreigners, and of course to U.S. citizens
abroad who encounter U.S. offices, etc.), what can Louis possibly be
referring to when he speaks of the Fourth Amendment? Surely he is not
referring to satisfying the Fourth Amendment concerns for privacy amongst
the Russians, Afghans, and so forth?

Obviously his side is contemplating domestic crypto restrictions.

We all know this, but it sometimes bears repeating what the Constitution
says, what the status quo is, and what they are proposing.

They are planning domestic crypto restrictions, GAK, and all the rest of
what we have long expected.

When that comes, anyone will be full jusfified in taking action by any
means necessary to halt the onset of the total state.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From stuffed at stuffed.net  Mon Sep  7 12:16:27 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bruise Cruise: New charter liner offers harsh reception/Grave Throbbing: Cemetary sex
Message-ID: <19980907071001.28854.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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the URL,  copy it and then paste it into your browser  (then
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supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full
instructions on unsubscribing  are in every issue of Eureka!

       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/7/   <----





From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Sun Sep  6 21:20:16 1998
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (New York Times subscription robot)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:20:16 +0800
Subject: Welcome to The New York Times on the Web
Message-ID: <199809070504.AAA45356@inbox.nytimes.com>



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From jonkc at worldnet.att.net  Sun Sep  6 23:05:10 1998
From: jonkc at worldnet.att.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:05:10 +0800
Subject: Shakespeare
Message-ID: <000201bdda24$dd4c87e0$0d924d0c@flrjs>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tim May tcmay at got.net Wrote:

>I read part of a book about some pretty convincing evidence that the
>works of "Shakespeare" were probably written by a member of Queen
>Elizabeth's royal court.

I think that's unlikely, the myth probably started because some people can't
imagine a person without royal blood being a genius.

>This guy had the time, had the education, knew the workings of
>royalty, and was an accomplished writer...all things the nearly-illiterate
>(evidence shows) Wm. Shakespeare, a merchant, did not have.

There is little evidence that Shakespeare was  a merchant, although his
father was, he was a glover and a very successful one, at least until
Shakespeare was a teenager when his Father lost most of his money.
Although he doesn't seem to have gone to collage, as the son of
a rich man he did go to the equivalent of very good grade and high schools
where he certainly learned Latin and Greek and History.  In addition there
Is a 10 year gap between the time he finished "high school" and he when
he wrote his first play. Some think he traveled, some think he was in the
military, whatever he did he must have learned about the world. Also, I
don't see how an actor could be illiterate, true he did spell his name
differently on occasion but that wasn't unusual at a time before spelling
was standardized.

There was certainly an actor named William Shakespeare who got rich off the
royalties from plays he claimed to have written over a period of 20 years,
he made enough money to buy the second largest house in his hometown. If
Shakespeare didn't write them it's hard to understand why the real author
never objected but instead kept writing new plays to make another man even
more money.

>one of the biggest problems with applying computerized analysis
>to these works is the paucity of material known to be written by the
>"real" Wm. Shakespeare, the historical person.

If you look at all the words in Shakespeare's plays and poems you will find
that about 30% of the words he uses one time and never again in anything he
wrote. This percentage is vastly greater than any other writer of his day
or our own. I think this statistic is amazing and probably important, but I
confess I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Does it prove it was written
by a committee or by a genius who could always find exactly the right word?
I lean toward the genius theory.


PS; Tim this is the first time I've had the pleasure of responding to one of
your posts since you were on the Extropian List, I'm still on that list
because it has a much higher signal to noise ratio than most, feel free to
drop by for a visit, you would be welcome.

  John K Clark    jonkc at att.net


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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5

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From fod at brd.ie  Sun Sep  6 23:43:03 1998
From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:43:03 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions]
Message-ID: <35F37E90.76109489@brd.ie>

Well, the attached draft is not designed for corporate recovery of
encrypted email, that's for sure.

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.

To: cryptography at c2.net, cypherpunks at algebra.com
Subject: Re: ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf M�ller)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 98 01:47 +0200
In-Reply-To: <199809011443.KAA23307 at ietf.org>
Organization: HR13
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com


>From the IETF's IPSEC Working Group:

	Title		: ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions
	Author(s)	: T. Markham
	Filename	: draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 31-Aug-98
	
    This document describes the proposed approach for negotiating and
    exchanging key recovery information within the Internet Security
    Association Key Management Protocol (ISAKMP).

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt






From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Sep  7 00:00:52 1998
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:00:52 +0800
Subject: Shakespeare
In-Reply-To: <000201bdda24$dd4c87e0$0d924d0c@flrjs>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.980905060221.18377A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>





On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, John Clark wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Tim May tcmay at got.net Wrote:
> 
> >I read part of a book about some pretty convincing evidence that the
> >works of "Shakespeare" were probably written by a member of Queen
> >Elizabeth's royal court.
> 
> I think that's unlikely, the myth probably started because some people can't
> imagine a person without royal blood being a genius.
> 

It is possible that you are both right, to some extent. Shakespeare has
often been accused of borrowing other's works, but the practice was quite
common in his day. If one author could not pull off a successful
presentation of a story line, another would often pick up the idea, refine
it, and present the concept in a somewhat different light. There were no
copyrights in those days. (it was also hard to come by an entire script - 
these were jealously guarded to discourage plagirism - if a play was 
"copied", it was more often from memory of a performance, or from the 
recollection of actors than from the actual script itself)

There were also two distinct forms of theatre; the small indoor
presentations (such as were presented to the royal court) were highbrow,
while the outdoor theatres were sustained by the commoners and varied 
from the serious to the bawdy (or downright vulgar -  the outdoor
theatres were not well received in some social circles, either). It is
entirely possible that a play that failed to gain acceptance, or even an
audience, at a more prestigeous indoor theatre was re-worked by another
author for the Theatre, or even the Curtain (a rowdy playhouse that often 
doubled as a bear pit). Shakespeare may very well have picked up the 
central theme for one(or more) of his works from an obscure indoor play, 
possibly written by a courtier; that doesn't diminish his genius.






From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Sep  7 00:38:02 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:38:02 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions]
In-Reply-To: <35F37E90.76109489@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <199809070734.DAA21427@domains.invweb.net>



In <35F37E90.76109489 at brd.ie>, on 09/07/98 
   at 07:34 AM, "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod at brd.ie> said:


>Well, the attached draft is not designed for corporate recovery of
>encrypted email, that's for sure.

4.  ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

This document was produced based on the combined efforts of the protocol
subcommittee of the Key Recovery Alliance.


Why am I not surprised?

I hope the IETF will not accept the implementation of *any* GAK proposals
into the RFC's. If these people want to force Big Brother on us they
should not have the benefit of the IETF to do so.

I plan on writting to the Security Group at the IETF on this. Hopefully it
will not be accepted for consideration. I would like to see the IETF have
a blanket policy automatically rejecting any GAK proposals but that might
be too much to ask.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
---------------------------------------------------------------





From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Sep  7 01:01:00 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:01:00 +0800
Subject: Snakes of Medusa torment Larry Detweiler
In-Reply-To: <v03130306b2166860ec91@[209.133.20.5]>
Message-ID: <199809070757.AAA07875@netcom13.netcom.com>



hi timmy. we have reached a breakthrough in your psychotherapy
in which you actually address me directly <g>

you completely gloss over my point about Linux, because
it demonstrates my arguments very well. those who work
on Linux are very similar to cpunks. distributed all
over the world, and they are united by a common desire/vision
and mailing lists.  you have an unexpressed 
hatred of some aspects of
hacking, of course, so you find linux repulsive and
incomprehensible.

this list has always lacked vision, by *anyone*. a group
is united by a vision. if you have no vision, you have
nothing but a bunch of anarchists who cannot accomplish
anything substantial together. want proof? how about the
history of the last few years of mounting irrelevance of
this list?

what you get is miniature
projects that may succeed or fail, and if they succeed,
an implication is carried that they are "cpunk" projects.
there are obviously no cpunk projects. and that's the
weakness of this so-called "group". any time such a project is proposed
by anyone, self-righteous anarchists such as yourself
shoot it down.

ok, mount one of your lame arguments that "this is only
a mailing list. there are no projects". again, precisely.
you want more out of this list, or less? every time I 
tell you how to get more, you say you want less. every
time you complain you get less, I tell you how to get more.

sure, let's have an immature debate society. we've had
that for what, ~6 years or so? the time flies when you're
having fun <g>

aren't you somewhat ashamed that the recent EFF crack
had *nothing* to do with anyone on this list? frankly, I think
it's pretty lame. imagine the way a 
mailing list can help mobilize support and
resources. we've seen glimpes in the past of this.
instead Gilmore did it entirely behind the
scenes, never announcing it to this list, because 
clearly no one here has the maturity to cooperate to complete
a meaningful project. there are only complaints, as lead
by the Lead Sniper. (wow, that's a funny term, with lots
of implications, I think I might start using it more often!!!)
btw, killed any cats lately??

a huge waste of talent, if you ask me, and the main reason
that you have such a high turnover/attrition on this list.
ever asked yourself why there is so much turnover/attrition
here? but we're not going to get very far, with you conveniently
deleting my key points as usual. stick your head in the
digital /dev/null some more. see no VZN, hear no VZN, 
speak no VZN. truly your philosophy...!!!

"eletrocracy"? I have no idea what you're talking about.
whatever it is, it does sound pretty infantile!!!
a useful straw man, I suppose.  maybe if you elaborated it 
might refresh my memory <g>







From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Sep  7 01:07:33 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:07:33 +0800
Subject: KRAP is at it in the IETF
Message-ID: <199809070805.EAA21826@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello,

It has come to my attention that the KRAP (key recovery alliance program)
has submitted an I-D (internet draft) to the IETF for adding GAK
(government access to keys) to the IPSEC protocols:

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt

ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions
<draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt>

7. AUTHOR INFORMATION

   Tom Markham
   Secure Computing Corp
   2675 Long Lake Road
   Roseville, MN 55113   USA

   Phone: 651.628.2754,    Fax:   651.628.2701
   EMail: tom_markham at securecomputing.com


I consider this a perversion of the standards process of the IETF to
advance a political agenda which must be stopped at all cost.

Below are the e-mail addresses of some people that you should write
(politely) expressing your objections to any such additions to the
protocols:

IPSEC Chairs:

Theodore Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu>
Robert Moskowitz <rgm at icsa.net>

Security Area Directors:

Jeffrey Schiller <jis at mit.edu>
Marcus Leech <mlecch at nortel.ca>

As I mentioned before, be polite. These people are not the ones proposing
GAK be added to the IPSEC protocols. They have put a lot of time and
effort in forwarding the cause for strong encryption. They should be made
aware of the communities objections to these attempts by KRAP.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: It's OS/2, Jim, but not OS/2 as we know it.

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From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Sep  7 01:13:31 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:13:31 +0800
Subject: digital sig bill
Message-ID: <199809070809.BAA08498@netcom13.netcom.com>




------- Forwarded Message

To: believer at telepath.com
From: believer at telepath.com
Subject: IP: About Digital Signature Bill

09/05/98 0752

Source:  US Newswire
http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/Current_Releases/0904-138.txt

Abraham Urges Senate to Pass Digital Signature Bill 
U.S. Newswire
4 Sep 17:30

 Abraham Urges Senate to Pass Digital Signature Bill Next Week
 To: National Desk
 Contact: Joe McMonigle of the Office of U.S. Sen. Spencer Abraham,
          202-224-8833

   WASHINGTON, Sept. 4 /U.S. Newswire/ -- While President Clinton
used a visit in Ireland today to digitally sign an electronic
commerce agreement with Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern on a laptop
computer, U.S. Sen. Spencer Abraham (R-Mich.) urged his colleagues in
the Senate to pass his legislation requiring federal agencies to
start allowing the public to do the same.

   S.2107, the Government Paperwork Elimination Act, would require
federal agencies to make versions of their forms available online and
allow people to submit these forms with digital signatures instead of
handwritten ones.  It also sets up a process by which commercially
developed digital signatures can be used in submitting forms to the
government and permits the digital storage of federal documents.

   "If it's okay for President Clinton and Prime Minister Ahern, it
should also be okay for the federal government to recognize the
digital signature of ordinary Americans," Abraham said.  "This
legislation will bring the federal government into the electronic
age, in the process saving American individuals and companies
millions of dollars and hundreds of hours currently wasted on
government paperwork," Abraham said.  "Each and every year, Americans
spend in excess of $600 billion simply filing out, documenting and
handling government paperwork.  This huge loss of time and money
constitutes a significant drain on our economy and we must bring it
under control."

   "By providing individuals and companies with the option of
electronic filing and storage, this bill will reduce the paperwork
burden imposed by government on the American people and the American
economy.  It will allow people to move from printed forms they must
fill out using typewriters or handwriting to digitally-based forms
that can be filled out using a word processor.  This savings in time,
storage and postage will be enormous," said Abraham.

   The Government Paperwork Elimination Act would:

   -- Require the federal government make available its forms online
and allow citizens to sign forms by the use of digital signatures.

   -- Direct the Commerce Department to conduct a study of the impact
of this Act on the use of digital signatures for electronic commerce
and on individual privacy.

   -- Allow Executive Agencies 18 months to establish a method for
agencies to put forms online.  The forms must be able to be filled
out, signed and filed with the agency electronically.

   -- Work to develop a system whereby fees and payments associated
with the forms can also be submitted at the same time.  For example,
a citizen could use their tax software to create all the information
necessary for filling out their tax forms, fill in the IRS online
form, submit it and any indicated payments, and immediately receive a
tax receipt.

   -- Enable the federal government to allow its employees to have
digital signatures for use with citizens and allow agencies to use
electronic notice where written notice had been required, if the
citizen prefers electronic notice.

   -- Establish that a digital signature will have legal standing.

   -- Provide that Administration guidelines and procedures for
electronic signatures that are used for the government forms that are
compatible with those the private sector will be using for commerce,
and specifies that any system used by the government must be industry
and technology neutral.

   -- State that if an employer is required to collect, file and
store paper forms that are completed by employees, that electronic
storage will likely be accepted.

   -- Allow the government five years to implement these provisions.

   "The information age is no longer new.  We are in the midst of a
revolution in the way people do business and maintain records.  The
Government Paperwork Elimination Act will force Washington to catch
up with these developments, and release our businesses from the drag
of an obsolete bureaucracy as they pursue further innovations," said
Abraham.

   Co-sponsors of the Paperwork Elimination Act include Sens. Ron
Wyden (D-Ore.), Jack Reed (D-R.I.), John McCain (R-Ariz.), Trent Lott
(R-Miss.), Thad Cochran (R-Miss.), and Conrad Burns (R-Mont.)

 -0-
 /U.S. Newswire  202-347-2770/
 09/04 17:30

Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire
- -----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
- -----------------------




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with the message:
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------- End of Forwarded Message





From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Sep  7 02:04:09 1998
From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 17:04:09 +0800
Subject: IP: Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of   Citizenship
In-Reply-To: <v0401173cb2186ae5e832@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <35F3A0CC.37385749@stud.uni-muenchen.de>



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Sameer Parekh, the president of the Web server company C2 Net, said:
> "I think it's essential if you want business that you're doing your
> development overseas. It's pretty clear to anyone internationally that
> anything exportable [from the United States] is a joke."

Let's wait and see whether AES will be genuinely exportable.

M. K. Shen





From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Sep  7 02:25:46 1998
From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 17:25:46 +0800
Subject: request for [cdn] export laws.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980905160024.0070f7c0@dowco.com>
Message-ID: <35F3A435.4C8C4D26@stud.uni-muenchen.de>



jkthomson wrote:

> 
> I have been looking for the export restrictions (if any) that regulate
> canadian encryption products.  I have tried searching the net for a little

Perhaps the URL
  
     http://www.efc.ca/

is of some interest to you.

M. K. Shen





From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Sep  7 03:09:54 1998
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:09:54 +0800
Subject: Snakes of Medusa torment Larry Detweiler
In-Reply-To: <199809070757.AAA07875@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <000701bdda48$215d3920$4f8195cf@blanc>



>From Vladimir Z Neurological:

: sure, let's have an immature debate society. we've had
: that for what, ~6 years or so? the time flies when you're
: having fun <g>

	[ . . . ]

: a huge waste of talent, if you ask me, and the main reason
: that you have such a high turnover/attrition on this list.
: ever asked yourself why there is so much turnover/attrition
: here?  [... and so forth ... ]
.........................................................

I ask myself why you're still hanging around on this worthless list after all this time,
LD, seeing as how you yourself - unlike everyone else - are so mature, so talented, and
would rather be coding than wasting your time reading what TCM has to say about anything.

It must be that you really enjoy it and find it intrinsically valuable.
    ..
Blanc





From guy at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 05:05:17 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:05:17 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
Message-ID: <199809071201.IAA01590@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
   >   >Information "I am not a klook" Security wrote:
   >
   >   >> Subject: Terrorist FBI, on Terrorism
   >   >> Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:58:23 EDT
   >   >>
   >   >> Statement for the Record
   >   >> FBI Director Louis J. Freeh before the Senate Judiciary Committee,
   >   >> September 3, 1998
   >
   >   >> The FBI supports a balanced encryption policy that satisfies fourth
   >   >> amendment concerns for privacy, the commercial needs of industry for
   >   >> robust encryption, and the government's public safety and national
   >   >> security needs.
   >
   >   But it bears constant repeating, especially to the skeptical, that there
   >   are NO DOMESTIC CRYPTO LAWS.
   >
   >   We all know this, but Freeh and Company continue to mumble about "meeting
   >   the legitmate needs of law enforcement." What can they be speaking of?
   >
   >   Obviously his side is contemplating domestic crypto restrictions.
   >
   >   They are planning domestic crypto restrictions, GAK, and all the rest of
   >   what we have long expected.

They have stated so openly; ~"if we hear a lot of encrypted hiss from [CALEA]
intercepts, we'll need GAK to be the law of the land". (a tilde before the
quote means I am paraphrasing).

In fact, at the same time the FBI used to say they weren't calling for
such a law, they were pushing behind the scenes for it.

*   http://epic.org/crypto/ban/fbi_dox/impact_text.gif
*
*   SECRET FBI report
*
*                   NEED FOR A NATIONAL POLICY
*
*   A national policy embodied in legislation is needed which insures
*   that cryptography use in the United States should be forced to be
*   crackable by law enforcement, so such communications can be monitored
*   with real-time decryption.
*   
*   All cryptography that cannot meet this standard should be prohibited.

And here's the ECHELON/UKUSA slant:

*   What Is The OECD
*
*   The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, based in
*   Paris, France, is a unique forum permitting governments of the
*   industrialized democracies to study and formulate the best policies
*   possible in all economic and social spheres.

: From owner-firewalls-outgoing at GreatCircle.COM Wed May 14 18:54:15 1997
: Received: from osiris (osiris.nso.org [207.30.58.40]) by ra.nso.org
:           (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-13592) with SMTP id AAA322
:           for <firewalls at GreatCircle.COM>; Wed, 14 May 1997 12:56:13 -0400
: Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:58:46 -0400
: To: firewalls at GreatCircle.COM
: From: research at isr.net (Research Unit I)
: Subject: Re: Encryption Outside US
:
:
: I was part of that OECD Expert Group, and believe I may shine at least
: some light on what exactly was said and happened at the meetings.
:
: The main conflict during all sessions was the demand of the US to be
: able to decrypt anything, anywhere at any time versus the European
: focus: we want to have the choice - with an open end - to maintain
: own surveillance.  The US demand would have caused an immediate
: ability to tap into what the European intelligence community believes to
: be its sole and exclusive territory. In fact the Europeans were not at all
: pleased with the US view points of controlling ALL crypto. Germany and
: France vigorously refused to work with the US on this issue.
:
: The Clipper initiative (at the time not readily developed) was completely
: banned, except for the Australian and UK views that felt some obligation
: from the 1947 UKUSA treaty (dealing with interchange of intelligence).
:
: With a vast majority the US was cornered completely, and had to accept
: the international views. And actually adopted those as well.  EFF, EPIC and
: other US organizations were delighted to see the formal US views barred,
: but expressed their concern on the development of alternate political
: pressure that would cause the same effects.
:
: As time went by that was indeed what the US did, and up to now with minor
: success.
:
: Bertil Fortrie
: Internet Security Review

Declan, wanna track down this person and find out the names of those
who spoke of the ultra-secret UKUSA treaty that's never been seen,
and interview them?

----

When Sonny Bono hit a tree, yet another Senator convinced by the FBI/NSA's
little presentation of horrors (which is preceded by a visible sweep for
electronic bugs) was lost. Only an Executive Order seems like it will get
domestic crypto "outlawed".

One continued worrisome slant to the FBI/NSAs pushing for domestic GAK
is that they use the same arguments for retaining export controls (which
Clinton did by Executive Order, or they would have expired) as they give
for wanting to extend these controls domestically.

LART me if I'm wrong, but that makes the issue different from most
other export-controlled non-secret technology/products.

----

I still think someone (without a job ;-) should test the export law
by pulling in PGP from outside the US and then immediately putting
it back at the same site.

If could find someone on the lower East Side willing to do it
for $5000. Gilmore, care to make another investment in making
the government's position look silly? ;-)

---guy





From your.name at pcm.bosch.de  Mon Sep  7 05:05:28 1998
From: your.name at pcm.bosch.de (your name)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:05:28 +0800
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809071159.NAA05822@frnext1a.fr.bosch.de>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
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From guy at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 05:22:38 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:22:38 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions]
Message-ID: <199809071219.IAA01745@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii at invweb.net>
   >
   >   In <35F37E90.76109489 at brd.ie>, on 09/07/98 
   >      at 07:34 AM, "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod at brd.ie> said:
   >
   >   >Well, the attached draft is not designed for corporate recovery of
   >   >encrypted email, that's for sure.
   >
   >   4.  ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
   >
   >   This document was produced based on the combined efforts of the protocol
   >   subcommittee of the Key Recovery Alliance.
   >
   >   Why am I not surprised?
   >
   >   I hope the IETF will not accept the implementation of *any* GAK proposals
   >   into the RFC's. If these people want to force Big Brother on us they
   >   should not have the benefit of the IETF to do so.


    ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt
    
     o Government Requirements: Governments must be able to intercept the
    CKRB at the time of key establishment or periodically while the
    security association remains active. This requires that the key
    recovery enabled entity transmit the CKRB during the key establishment
    protocol and every N hours during the security association.

Whooey!

They've been infiltrated by idjits.
---guy





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep  7 05:27:49 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:27:49 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980906221144.24713B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Version.32.19980907073131.00fb96e0@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim asks:

>Freeh and Company continue to mumble about "meeting
>the legitmate needs of law enforcement." What can they 
>be speaking of?
...
>Obviously his side is contemplating domestic crypto restrictions.

Threat of terrorism will be the impetus for applying national security 
restrictions domestically, for relaxing cold war limitations on spying
on Americans, for dissolving barriers between law enforcement
and military/intelligence agencies.

Technical means for access to encrypted data will probably
come first in communications, then to stored material. There
will be an agreement for increased CALEA wiretap funding, which 
is what the two cellular and wired suits against the FBI intend,
(paralleling what the hardware and software industries want from
federal buyers of security products).

This will provide the infrastructural regime for the gov to monitor 
and store domestic traffic as NSA does for the global, using the 
same technology (NSA may provide service to domestic
LEA as it now does for other gov customers for intel).

Other access will come through hardware and software for
computers, paralleling technology developed for telecomm tapping,
tracking and monitoring. 

Most probably through overt/covert features of microprocessors 
and OS's, as reported recently of Wintel and others, but also 
probably with special chips for DSP and software for modular 
design -- why build from scratch when these handy kits are 
available.

As noted here, the features will appear first as optional, in response
to demand from commerce, from parents, from responsible
institutions, to meet public calls for protection, for privacy, for
combating threats to the American people. 

Like wiretap law, use of the features for preventative snooping will 
initially require a court order, as provided in several of the crypto 
legislative proposals.

Like the wiretap orders, gradually there will be no secret court refusals 
for requests to use the technology in the national interest.

A publicity campain will proclaims that citizens with nothing to hide 
will have nothing to fear. Assurance of safety will be transparent, 
no clicks on the line. In a digital world, home-office devices will send
lifestyle data to the device manufacturers over the always monitoring 
transparental Net.

Personal privacy will evaporate almost unnoticeably, as with the tv 
remote control, cp/defcon/bar brag, telephone, fax and forever-lovers 
pillowtalk.







From jimg at mentat.com  Mon Sep  7 05:40:37 1998
From: jimg at mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:40:37 +0800
Subject: IP: Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of   Citizenship
Message-ID: <199809071236.FAA05486@zendia.mentat.com>



M-K Shen wrote:
> 
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > 
> > Sameer Parekh, the president of the Web server company C2 Net, said:
> > "I think it's essential if you want business that you're doing your
> > development overseas. It's pretty clear to anyone internationally that
> > anything exportable [from the United States] is a joke."
> 
> Let's wait and see whether AES will be genuinely exportable.

Why wait?  None of the AES candidates is currently exportable without a
license, and the much weaker DES algorithm that one of them will replace
is not exportable without a license.  In fact, according to the instructions
posted at NIST the algorithm designers from outside the US and Canada were
required to fill out export license applications in order to get a copy of
their own algorithms back from NIST.

Without a change in the regulations AES will be no more exportable
than DES is now.

	Jim Gillogly





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep  7 05:55:29 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:55:29 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <199809071201.IAA01590@panix7.panix.com>
Message-ID: <199809071245.IAA26339@camel7.mindspring.com>



Guy wrote:

>I still think someone (without a job ;-) should test the export law
>by pulling in PGP from outside the US and then immediately putting
>it back at the same site.

The Ft. Bragg Net-offering of PGP (since withdrawn) has been available 
on our site without restrictions since April 1998 in the public interest:

   http://jya.com/pgp262-mil.zip  (includes the Ft. Bragg page; 274K)







From guy at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 05:55:55 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:55:55 +0800
Subject: KRAP is at it in the IETF
Message-ID: <199809071253.IAA01912@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii at invweb.net>
   >
   >   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
   >
   >   Hello,
   >
   >   It has come to my attention that the KRAP (key recovery alliance program)
   >   has submitted an I-D (internet draft) to the IETF for adding GAK
   >   (government access to keys) to the IPSEC protocols:
   >
   >   ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt
   >
   >   I consider this a perversion of the standards process of the IETF to
   >   advance a political agenda which must be stopped at all cost.
   >
   >   Below are the e-mail addresses of some people that you should write
   >   (politely) expressing your objections to any such additions to the
   >   protocols:

Dear Sirs,

#    o Government Requirements: Governments must be able to intercept the
#   CKRB at the time of key establishment or periodically while the
#   security association remains active. This requires that the key
#   recovery enabled entity transmit the CKRB during the key establishment
#   protocol and every N hours during the security association.

   Speaking as someone who monitors company Internet traffic (email)
for compliance and security purposes, I would like to ask why the IETF
is working on a key recovery standard.

   If a company chooses to deploy, say, PGP with key recovery internally,
then any messages sent with it encrypted in the receiving party's public
key are available to the sending company's Information Security personnel.

   If a company wishes to make the key recovery information available
to the government, they can individually choose to do that.

   The IETF should not be helping to put such an infrastructure in place.

   Governments are our adversaries with respect to encryption and privacy.

   The US government, represented by the FBI/NSA, used to state that they
weren't pushing for mandatory domestic encryption. (requiring people use
curtains on their homes that the government can see through)

   Eventually we found out they lied, and were pushing for exactly that
behind the scenes:

*   http://epic.org/crypto/ban/fbi_dox/impact_text.gif
*
*   SECRET FBI report
*                         
*                   NEED FOR A NATIONAL POLICY  
*                             
*   A national policy embodied in legislation is needed which insures
*   that cryptography use in the United States should be forced to be
*   crackable by law enforcement, so such communications can be monitored
*   with real-time decryption.
*
*   All cryptography that cannot meet this standard should be prohibited.

   Feel free to cite this manipulation when discarding key recovery proposals.

   If you put a key recovery proposal in place, it makes it that much
easier for them to require its use.

   Plus my basic complaint: this proposal is of no use to business
or Internet users.

   None.

   Its only purpose is to allow interception and decoding over the Internet.

   And if you think this would happen only with a court order, check out
this "anytime, anywhere" wording by the US government...
---guy

   Don't be another cog in the ECHELON monitoring machine.



The U.S. asked the OECD to agree to internationally required Key Recovery.

*   What Is The OECD
*
*   The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, based in
*   Paris, France, is a unique forum permitting governments of the
*   industrialized democracies to study and formulate the best policies
*   possible in all economic and social spheres.

: From owner-firewalls-outgoing at GreatCircle.COM Wed May 14 18:54:15 1997
: Received: from osiris (osiris.nso.org [207.30.58.40]) by ra.nso.org
:           (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-13592) with SMTP id AAA322
:           for <firewalls at GreatCircle.COM>; Wed, 14 May 1997 12:56:13 -0400
: Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:58:46 -0400
: To: firewalls at GreatCircle.COM
: From: research at isr.net (Research Unit I)
: Subject: Re: Encryption Outside US
: 
: 
: I was part of that OECD Expert Group, and believe I may shine at least
: some light on what exactly was said and happened at the meetings.
: 
: The main conflict during all sessions was the demand of the US to be
: able to decrypt anything, anywhere at any time versus the European 
: focus: we want to have the choice - with an open end - to maintain
: own surveillance.  The US demand would have caused an immediate
: ability to tap into what the European intelligence community believes to
: be its sole and exclusive territory. In fact the Europeans were not at all
: pleased with the US view points of controlling ALL crypto. Germany and
: France vigorously refused to work with the US on this issue.
:
: The Clipper initiative (at the time not readily developed) was completely
: banned, except for the Australian and UK views that felt some obligation
: from the 1947 UKUSA treaty (dealing with interchange of intelligence).
: 
: With a vast majority the US was cornered completely, and had to accept
: the international views. And actually adopted those as well.  EFF, EPIC and
: other US organizations were delighted to see the formal US views barred,
: but expressed their concern on the development of alternate political
: pressure that would cause the same effects.
:
: As time went by that was indeed what the US did, and up to now with minor
: success.
: 
: Bertil Fortrie
: Internet Security Review
: ==





From stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep  7 06:07:13 1998
From: stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:07:13 +0800
Subject: any relation?
Message-ID: <19980907140142.A6010@tightrope.demon.co.uk>



http://www.kiva.net/~tmay/

-- 
pgp 1024/D9C69DF9 1997/10/14 steve mynott <steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk>





From guy at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 06:47:53 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:47:53 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
Message-ID: <199809071345.JAA02136@panix7.panix.com>



[Cryptography Manifesto excerpts used for replies]

   >   From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
   >
   >   Tim asks:
   >
   >   >Freeh and Company continue to mumble about "meeting
   >   >the legitmate needs of law enforcement." What can they 
   >   >be speaking of?
   >   ...
   >   >Obviously his side is contemplating domestic crypto restrictions.
   >
   >   Threat of terrorism will be the impetus for applying national security 
   >   restrictions domestically, for relaxing cold war limitations on spying
   >   on Americans, for dissolving barriers between law enforcement
   >   and military/intelligence agencies.

Funny how the NSA's ECHELON monitoring machine keeps growing endlessly...

:   The Washington Post Magazine, June 23 1996
:   "Government surveillance, terrorism and the U.S. Constitution"
:   from Main Justice, by Jim McGee and Brian Duffy, 1996, ISBN 0-684-81135-9
:           
:   The FBI is growing in tandem with the NSA. With the help of the National
:   Security Agency, the U.S. eavesdropping bureaucracy that spans the globe,
:   the FBI operates a super-secret facility in New York code-named Megahut
:   that is linked to the other FBI listening posts.
: 
:   After the OKC bombing, Janet Reno and Louis Freeh asked Congress to raise
:   to 3,000 the number of FBI agents working counter-intelligence and counter-
:   terrorism.
: 
:   With the new legislation, the funding for just the FBI's counter-intelli-
:   gence/terror goals is now ONE BILLION DOLLARS a year, and their activities
:   will rise to a LEVEL HIGHER THAN AT ANY TIME DURING THE COLD WAR.  

1984 means a constant State of War.


Here's a new war: "cyberwar".

#  "Head of CIA Plans Center To Protect Federal Computers"
#  By Tim Weiner, The New York Times, 6/26/96
# 
#  John Deutch, Director of the CIA, is building a "cyberwar" center in the NSA.
#   
#  Mr. Deutch said cyberwar could become a 21st-century national security threat
#  second only to nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.
# 
#  "The electron," Mr. Deutch warned, "is the ultimate precision-guided weapon."

Haven't I heard bad dialogue like this on Mystery Science Theater 3000?

----

   >   From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
   >
   >   Technical means for access to encrypted data will probably
   >   come first in communications, then to stored material. There
   >   will be an agreement for increased CALEA wiretap funding, which 
   >   is what the two cellular and wired suits against the FBI intend,
   >   (paralleling what the hardware and software industries want from
   >   federal buyers of security products).
   >
   >   This will provide the infrastructural regime for the gov to monitor 
   >   and store domestic traffic as NSA does for the global, using the 
   >   same technology (NSA may provide service to domestic
   >   LEA as it now does for other gov customers for intel).

    
Question:  How can the FBI use computers to monitor thousands and thousands
           and thousands and thousands of phone calls simultaneously, as they
           said they would do with CALEA, when we Americans speak so many 
           different accents and languages?
    
Answer:    Thirty years of fine tuning by the NSA, y'all.

----

   >   From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
   >
   >   As noted here, the features will appear first as optional, in response
   >   to demand from commerce, from parents, from responsible
   >   institutions, to meet public calls for protection, for privacy, for
   >   combating threats to the American people. 

*   "Project L.U.C.I.D.", by Texe Marrs, 1996, ISBN 1-884302-02-5
*
*   These changes are necessary, we are reminded each day by our mind control
*   jailers in the media, to solve the immigration crises, to institute gun
*   control, to counter domestic terrorism, to fight pornography, to find
*   deadbeat dads who don't pay child support, to "Save Mother Earth",
*   to war against drug kingpins, to stop crime in the streets, to watch and
*   monitor the militias, to put an end to hate crimes and bigotry,
*   to extend universal healthcare benefits, to guarantee welfare reform, to
*   improve public education...the list of crises and problems to be fixed
*   seems to be never-ending.
*
*   Implement National ID Cards, they promise, and a bright, secure future
*   can be ours. [snip]

----

   >   From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
   >
   >   Like wiretap law, use of the features for preventative snooping will 
   >   initially require a court order, as provided in several of the crypto 
   >   legislative proposals.
   >
   >   Like the wiretap orders, gradually there will be no secret court refusals 
   >   for requests to use the technology in the national interest.
   >
   >   Personal privacy will evaporate almost unnoticeably...

    *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *
    *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *
  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *
   ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***
    *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *
: The Puzzle Palace
:     Inside the National Security Agency,
:     America's most secret intelligence organization
: Author James Bamford, 1983 revision, ISBN 0-14-00.6748-5

P468-469: Within the United States, FISA still leaves the NSA free to pull
into its massive vacuum cleaner every telephone call and message entering,
leaving, OR TRANSITING the country.

By carefully inserting the words "by the National Security Agency" into the
FISA legislation, the NSA has skillfully excluded from the coverage of the
FISA statute as well as the surveillance court all interceptions received
from the British GCHQ or any other non-NSA source.

Thus it is possible for GCHQ to monitor the necessary domestic circuits  
and pass them on to the NSA through the UKUSA Agreement, giving them
impunity to target and watch-list Americans.

P475-477: Like an ever-widening sinkhole, the NSA's surveillance technology
will continue to expand, quietly pulling in more and more communications and
gradually eliminating more and more privacy.

If there are defenses to such technotyranny, it would appear, at least from
past experience, that they will not come from Congress.

Rather, they will most likely come from academe and industry in the form of
secure cryptographic applications to private and commercial telecommunications
equipment.

The same technology that is used against free speech can be used
to protect it, for without protection the future may be grim.


Senator Frank Church, chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee, referring
to the NSA's SIGINT technology, ciirca 1975:

    At the same time, that capability at any time could be turned around
    on the American people and no American would have any privacy left,
    such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations,
    telegrams, it doesn't matter.

    There would be no place to hide.

    If the government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge
    in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence commun-
    ity has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny,
    and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort
    to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how
    privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know.

    Such is the capability of this technology...

    I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge.

    I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and
    we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this
    technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that
    we never cross over that abyss.

    That is the abyss from which there is no return.

  
    *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *
   ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***    ***
  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *  * * *
    *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *
    *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *

*   "Data Show Federal Agents Seldom Employ Surveillance Authority Against
*   Terrorists", By Stephen Labaton, The New York Times, 5/1/95
*
*   An item in President Clinton's five-year, $1.5 billion plan to combat
*   terrorist acts:
*
*      o It would ease restrictions on the use in American courts of
*        information from surveillance conducted by foreign governments.


#   "Moynihan Says U.S. Killed His Anti-Spy Measure"
#   By Irvin Molotsky, The New York Times, September 11, 1985
#
#   Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan charged that the CIA and State Department
#   had killed a measure he had introduced aimed at protecting American
#   citizens from having their telephone conversations intercepted by foreign
#   agents in this country.
#
#   The Senator's bill would have made telephone call interception by foreign
#   agents illegal and would have provided for their expulsion.
#
#   The Chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence opposed the measure
#   as unnecessary and could lead to disclosing "sensitive intelligence
#   sources."

British wiretappers at the helm of the NSA's domestic spy-fest.

---guy

   http://www.newsguy.com/~mayday/crypto/crypto0.html





From guy at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 06:53:29 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:53:29 +0800
Subject: KRAP is at it in the IETF
Message-ID: <199809071350.JAA02165@panix7.panix.com>



A reply already.
---guy

   >   From rgm at icsa.net Mon Sep  7 09:32:47 1998
   >   Received: from homebase.htt-consult.com (homebase.htt-consult.com [208.235.169.130])
   >   	by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id JAA04870
   >   	for <guy at panix.com>; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:32:45 -0400 (EDT)
   >   Received: from rgm ([208.235.169.131]) by homebase.htt-consult.com
   >             (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA340
   >             for <guy at panix.com>; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:32:50 -0400
   >   Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980907092146.00a108c0 at homebase.htt-consult.com>
   >   X-Sender: rgm-icsa at homebase.htt-consult.com
   >   X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
   >   Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 09:21:46 -0400
   >   To: Information Security <guy at panix.com>
   >   From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm at icsa.net>
   >   Subject: Re: KRAP is at it in the IETF
   >   In-Reply-To: <199809071253.IAA01912 at panix7.panix.com>
   >   Mime-Version: 1.0
   >   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   >   Status: R
   >
   >   Note that this is an individual submission.  It is not the product of any
   >   IETF workgroup.  Anyone can submit an Internet Draft.  The IETF maintains
   >   an open process.  However, the IESG has to approve all IDs before they can
   >   become RFCs.  There will be a period of last call on this draft on the IETF
   >   list where appropriate comments will be taken.
   >   >
   >   Robert Moskowitz
   >   International Computer Security Association
   >   	(248) 968-9809
   >   Fax:	(248) 968-2824
   >   rgm at icsa.net
   >





From declan at well.com  Mon Sep  7 06:56:34 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:56:34 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <v03130307b218f992deb9@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907064846.7404C-100000@well.com>




On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:
> 
> There are, officially, no proposals on the table to limit speech within the
> U.S. by limiting the types and forms of language may use. There is the SAFE
> bill, which stands zero chance of passing, but this involves relaxing
> export requirements (though I expect compromises added, such as the
> felonization of crypto use in a crime, are an unwelcome step toward
> domestic restrictions).

Every version of SAFE includes crypto-in-a-crime as a key component. The
thinking of its drafters and backers like Reps. Goodlatte, Eschoo,
Lofgren, CDT, and some corporate lobbyists is that it would be too
politically controversial to pass Congress without it.

There is, offically, a proposal on the table to limit speech within the
U.S. by restricting sale, manufacture, distribution, import of non-GAK'd
crypto. A House committee approved that one year ago.

-Declan

PS: Note to DC cypherpunks. There's a meet/party 9-19 in Adams Morgan.





From guy at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 07:00:12 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:00:12 +0800
Subject: any relation?
Message-ID: <199809071357.JAA02175@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: Steve Mynott <stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk>
   >   X-Echelon: no-archive
Heh.
   >
   >   http://www.kiva.net/~tmay/

No, Cypherpunk Tim May's picture was shown in Wired...

But now he's gonna hafta get a gun at least that big,
or suffer major penis envy.

---guy ;-)





From noldcosts at usa.net  Mon Sep  7 22:10:30 1998
From: noldcosts at usa.net (noldcosts at usa.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:10:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: You Can Now Have A Free Cellular Phone!
Message-ID: <199809080511.HAA09289@mailhost.axime.com>





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your minutes used.

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For more information hit REPLY and type  _________ in the subject box






From rdl at MIT.EDU  Mon Sep  7 08:43:42 1998
From: rdl at MIT.EDU (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:43:42 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
Message-ID: <tw790jw2am5.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>



> There is another archive at http://sof.mit.edu/cypherpunks, ironically
> the machine that hosts it is not up at the moment

The machine suffered either disk controller or HDD problems as I was
logged into it.  It is located in Boston, MA.  I do not currently have
a way of getting to the machine to repair it, and this will likely
continue to be true, so until I can get one of the people I know at
the site where the machine is located to fix it, the archives will be
offline.  If the machine cannot be fixed, I will put the archive up
elsewhere.  I believe hugh at toad.com copied the entire archive at some
point, so that might be helpful.

Sorry about this -- replicated servers are always a good idea.
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://sof.mit.edu/rdl/		





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep  7 08:47:28 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:47:28 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <v03130307b218f992deb9@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <199809071546.LAA21825@camel7.mindspring.com>



It would be fitting for this list to be distinguished as
the place where crypto-in-a-crime was first committed.

What might that be? A match of the crime committed
to prevent widespread strong crypto?

Crypto-criminal anonymity in the national interest (governmental
secrecy) fighting to prevent crypto-criminal anonymity in the 
public interest (private secrecy).

This is not a troll, but query on what could be done to to tip the 
hand and identify those unnamed who are most fearful of strong 
cryptography, not their public rougers in the 3 divs of gov.







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 08:49:23 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:49:23 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809071608.LAA03505@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
> From: Ryan Lackey <rdl at MIT.EDU>
> Date: 07 Sep 1998 11:41:54 -0400

> The machine suffered either disk controller or HDD problems as I was
> logged into it.  It is located in Boston, MA.  I do not currently have

The L0pht folks are there and Wel Pond used to be a subscriber. Perhaps you
could contact them and they could provide the support?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From rdl at MIT.EDU  Mon Sep  7 08:50:27 1998
From: rdl at MIT.EDU (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:50:27 +0800
Subject: Archives? What archives?
Message-ID: <tw77lzf3oun.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>



Tim May <tcmay at got.net> writes:

> 
> At 1:44 AM -0700 9/4/98, Sparkes, Ian, ZFRD AC wrote:
> 
> >---- Facetious comment begin -----
> >At least now we know why people aren't following Tim's
> >advice to 'check the archives' before putting their feet in
> >their mouths.
> >---- Facetious comment end -----
> 
> Try http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/
> 
> If the archives at some sites are going down, this could be for various
> reasons.
> 
> Being an assembly of mostly-anarchist-leaning folks, with no leadership, no
> organization, no hierarchy, and no procedures, there are no officially
> maintained archives.
> 
> What we have are what people choose to put up.
> 
> Someone was talking in the last half year about burning a CD-ROM with a big
> chunk of the archives on it. I haven't heard if this ever happened and if
> it was made available for sale. (It seems that about every year someone
> launches a project to generate such a CD-ROM, but I haven't seen the
> followthrough.)
> 
> --Tim May

I had an archive on sof.mit.edu, but shortly after I left Boston, MA, US
where the machine is located, the HDD on the machine (or the controller)
died, and I'm still trying to get one of my former housemates to repair it.

I'm currently in the wrong country to fix the drive, and don't expect to
be back.

I prepared the CD-ROMs for sale (I had a CD-R on the machine), and posted
several times offering to sell them, but no one ever actually sent me
the money.  Actually, a small number of people did, and I sold them, but
I don't remember who they were.

I also don't have particularly good backups of that machine.  I think
someone mirrored it at toad.com before it died, so they're probably not
lost forever.  I don't have a machine with free bandwidth from which
to host it, though, until sof.mit.edu is back on the net.  I may be
sending the HDD out to a drive recovery company anyway for the other
data on the drive.

This was an amateurish hobby server of mine, and not a production-grade
service, so people shouldn't complain too much that I didn't invest the
money in quality replication.
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://sof.mit.edu/rdl/		





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  7 08:54:31 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:54:31 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <v03130307b218f992deb9@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <v03130308b219b1d32914@[209.66.100.36]>



At 6:53 AM -0700 9/7/98, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>There is, offically, a proposal on the table to limit speech within the
>U.S. by restricting sale, manufacture, distribution, import of non-GAK'd
>crypto. A House committee approved that one year ago.
>

I'd forgotten about that little one. Of course, it has not gone anywhere
(no Senate version or committee markup, right?), so I'm not yet ready to
say there's official action on its way. And, fortunately, the session is
over but for the shouting about Clinton and his cigars.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  7 09:14:10 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:14:10 +0800
Subject: IP: Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of  Citizenship
In-Reply-To: <v0401173cb2186ae5e832@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03130309b219b4b5d67a@[209.66.100.36]>



At 3:01 AM -0700 9/7/98, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>
>> Sameer Parekh, the president of the Web server company C2 Net, said:
>> "I think it's essential if you want business that you're doing your
>> development overseas. It's pretty clear to anyone internationally that
>> anything exportable [from the United States] is a joke."
>
>Let's wait and see whether AES will be genuinely exportable.
>

If it's as strong as it is supposed to be, e.g, much stronger than 3DES for
example, then OF COURSE it will not be exportable.

However, the neat thing about such a standard, with the algorithm carefully
described and published, is that many can implement it. There should be no
particular need to "export" implmentations out of the U.S. when so many
European and Asian and Carribbean folks will be implementing it and
embedding it in other applications.

(I don't follow AES stuff, so I may be missing some details, such as how
licensing (barf) will work. Maybe, like IDEA, implementors will be supposed
to seek a license. If so, then maybe implementors will have to go to
whomever controls the process, such as NIST, and request a license.
Probably NIST will deny a license to Hezbollah Cryptography Company. And so
it goes.)

I can't get too excited about AES. Plenty of ciphers out there. Which
cipher handles the high-speed stuff inside an app like PGP is not of great
concern to me. Especially since the speed of ciphers is less important for
the kind of political messages which interest me.

(I'm not belittling work on AES. It's both important for various network
uses, and interesting in its own right. Just not to me.)

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  7 09:18:54 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:18:54 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <tw790jw2am5.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <v0313030ab219b7376d3b@[209.66.100.36]>



At 8:41 AM -0700 9/7/98, Ryan Lackey wrote:

>The machine suffered either disk controller or HDD problems as I was
>logged into it.  It is located in Boston, MA.  I do not currently have
>a way of getting to the machine to repair it, and this will likely
>continue to be true, so until I can get one of the people I know at
>the site where the machine is located to fix it, the archives will be
>offline.  If the machine cannot be fixed, I will put the archive up
>elsewhere.  I believe hugh at toad.com copied the entire archive at some
>point, so that might be helpful.
>
>Sorry about this -- replicated servers are always a good idea.

Indeed, weren't you developing some kind of distributed eternity server? So
much for eternity, I guess.

Ryan, could you tell us what you are working on, and what has taken you out
of the country?

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 09:26:50 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:26:50 +0800
Subject: Seed to clone himself, one way or another [CNN]
Message-ID: <199809071643.LAA03831@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

It seems that scientist in general may soon be forced to roam from country
to country to practice their work.

Shades of Neuromancer. I am more and more convinced that Gibson's book, and
it's social commentary, is right on the mark.

Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9809/07/clone.seed.ap/

>           CHICAGO PHYSICIST SAYS HE'LL CLONE HIMSELF WITH WIFE'S HELP
>                                        
>    Dr. Richard Seed Richard Seed   September 7, 1998
>    Web posted at: 3:50 a.m. EDT (0750 GMT)
>    
>    BOSTON (AP) -- A physicist with three Harvard degrees but no medical
>    license said he is ready to begin the first step toward immortality:
>    he will clone himself.

[text deleted]

>    Seed said his wife, Gloria, has agreed to carry an embryo that would
>    be created by combining the nucleus of one of his cells with a donor
>    egg, the newspaper said.

[text deleted]

>    The Chicago scientist has three Harvard degrees, including a Ph.D.,
>    but no medical degree, no money and no institutional backing. He has
>    vowed to produce a pregnancy with a human clone within 2 1/2 years.

[text deleted]

>    Two states, California and Michigan, have outlawed human cloning and
>    dozens of other states are considering bans.
>    
>    A five-year moratorium on cloning is apparently being observed by
>    mainstream scientists, but Congress has failed to act on legislation
>    to outlaw the procedure.
>    
>    Seed has said that if Congress bans cloning, he will move his
>    operation to Tijuana, Mexico.

[text deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  7 09:31:30 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:31:30 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907064846.7404C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0313030bb219b85ab18e@[209.66.100.36]>



At 8:39 AM -0700 9/7/98, John Young wrote:
>It would be fitting for this list to be distinguished as
>the place where crypto-in-a-crime was first committed.
>
>What might that be? A match of the crime committed
>to prevent widespread strong crypto?
>
>Crypto-criminal anonymity in the national interest (governmental
>secrecy) fighting to prevent crypto-criminal anonymity in the
>public interest (private secrecy).
>
>This is not a troll, but query on what could be done to to tip the
>hand and identify those unnamed who are most fearful of strong
>cryptography, not their public rougers in the 3 divs of gov.

Well, there are just so many things that are now called "crimes" in these
Beknighted States, that it's really a matter of what the Authorities decide
to prosecute.

For example, do they prosecute J. Random Cypherpunk for his support of the
freedom fighters of Hezbollah, which is on the State Department's list of
"terror"-supporting organizations? (Meaning that citizen-unit sheeple are
breaking the law if they provide any financial or technical support to
Hezbollah.) If they prosecute J. Random Cypherpunk, and can show he used
PGP to send messages to the freedom fighters, or even supplied them with a
copy of PGP....

Or how about the religious organization known as Aum Shinretsu. Apparently
I am breaking a U.S. law by tithing to the Aum religion, as it is also on
this list.

And then there are those RICO laws. Arranging cutout organizations to let
foreign nationals consult and write code is probably a violation of various
laws.

I can think of lots of "crimes" in the eyes of the burrowcrats that many of
us are committing constantly.

However, "crypto in a crime" has not become law yet. And if we can keep
those pesky "civil rights" lobbyists in D.C. neutralized, maybe it never
will be. With any luck, these curriers of favor are inside the fallout
pattern from Bin Laden's nuke.

--Tim May




"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 09:52:58 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:52:58 +0800
Subject: Government Regulation & Scienctific Research
Message-ID: <199809071711.MAA04033@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Because of the changes in national governments and their increasing desire
to regulate their citizenry and their economies according to flawed economic
and social dogma we will see the following:

- primary research will still occur in the 1st world countries where the
  interest, money, and infrastructure can support it.

- practical applications of this technology will be developed in the 3rd
  world countries where the destabalizing impact of technology won't hurt
  as much because the central government infrastructure doesn't exist.

- it will become harder and harder for individuals with intellectual
  capital to express their rights within these 1st world enclaves. In
  particular, leaving the country. Perhaps it will get so bad that we'll
  see a return to the Soviet style of sports competition (ie KGB stoolies
  following all the athletes around).

What will be the end result?

We'll see bastions of 1st world culture surrounded by a sea of balkan
areas that are 'governed' by economic and cultural ethos alone.

As this process proceeds it will erode the stability of the 1st world
countries and cause their break-up into small independant balkans.

The results of this will be:

- there will be a slow down in basic research in about 50 years because
  there won't be any large infrastructures that can support basic
  research. Hopefuly the balkans will find a way to cooperate in an
  economic and technological manner. If so the roll of technology will
  resume, albeit potentialy at a slower rate.

- small balkans will band together for periods of time to explore
  research and develop the base understanding.

it'll end up being sort of like a MCC or Sematech at the political level.

One aspect that does worry me is that as technology speads the cultures
around the world homogenize. This could have a negative impact on the
balkanization because the motive to go from here to there won't be relevant
because there will be here. It may turn out that xenophobic cultures like
the Talibans and Chinese may actualy help in the long run because of their
unwillingness to compromise their world views.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep  7 10:48:09 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:48:09 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <199809071546.LAA21825@camel7.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199809071745.NAA09547@camel7.mindspring.com>



True that governmental dietary laws are immensely flexible 
when the dogs are hungry.

Given that moral and financial and political betrayal and treachery 
do not qualify for grave natsec threat, and only those acts which 
aim at snatching the very best technology for political control, it's 
the NBC toys that attract most of the serious searchers for terrorists 
under the global bed.

For crypto-in-a-crime that might mean sending here an encrypted
message with an explanatory note that it contains, say:

How to tell the difference between decoys and the real tranporters 
of nuclear components among the national labs and/or to Pantex 
for disassembly.

Or where the recovered Pu and triggers are stored in the TX 
panhandle, helpfully describing what's fake and what's not,
what the security plan is, not disinfo, what tools are needed to 
pick up emanations, how to weed the spoofs.

Or what and where BW or CW armaments are being refreshed,
repaired, deactivated, or invented in top secrecy just in case
some rogue violates a treaty, what tools are needed to sniff 
precursors, how to weed the spoofs, and how to avoid seeded 
soil in your backyard.

Or where key targeters of foreign terrorists live, their childrens' 
school, their favorite places to get away from the terrible
responsibility for USG assassination politics.

Or, could one encrypt a message to oneself claiming to
contain such information, post it here, see who wants
your heart and mind.

Or, create a PK pair, encrypt such a message, then post it,
both keys and PW here. Would the pacesetter be traced?

Would anyone notice, though? Would waiting for the disaster
be better strategy?

Thousands of threats pour in, State says, Secret Service says,
IC says, way too many to fully investigate, until one proves 
blessedly true, ah yes, the likely suspect, then marshal the 
targeters to cruise congress whispering look at this, to OK 
cleansweeping CDR, according to immensely flexible menus
long set.







From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Sep  7 11:55:52 1998
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 02:55:52 +0800
Subject: Government Regulation & Scienctific Research
In-Reply-To: <199809071711.MAA04033@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980908023954.12495E-100000@clueserver.org>



On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:

> Because of the changes in national governments and their increasing desire
> to regulate their citizenry and their economies according to flawed economic
> and social dogma we will see the following:

I have a little bit of a different take on things...

I expect the first world to start to take after the East German model.

-- Those who are precieved as being a possible threat will be
marginalized, jailed, forced to flee, or co-opted.

-- A large portion of the population will be devoted towards control of
the population.  (Either in law enforcement, paid snitches, propaganda, or
similar activities.)

-- Much of the Government's budget will be devoted to citizen control.
(More will be spent on fighting internal threats than defending from
external threats.)  And since "The imposition of order = the escalation of
disorder", it will only spiral downwards.

In 50 years I expect that the creative citizenry will either be
underground, fled, or no longer participating in the active discorse of
the society.  All of the life will be sucked out of the population in
order to fight the "Scapegoats of the Week/Month/Year/Century". 

It will only fall apart when we reach a level where no one wants to live
here any more and it falls apart from internal system failure and
hemoraging.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep  7 11:58:55 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 02:58:55 +0800
Subject: Tesla's Secrets
Message-ID: <199809071857.OAA27475@camel7.mindspring.com>



DoD's latest standard for protection against electromagnetic
effects, MIL-STD-464, "Electromagnetic Environmental Effects
-- Requirements for Systems," provides a bare 17 pages of dry
prescriptions for the official standard, then 90 astonishing pages 
of ways the standard is to be applied in addressing unexpected
EM misfortunes, like ordance spontaneously exploding, planes
crashing, ships out of control, radar meltdown, personnel fried, 
and so on.

   http://jya.com/mil-std-464.htm  (346K plus images)

What comes out of this critical "anecdotal" material, not yet 
subject to precise standardization, is what Tesla learned early 
this century: the dreadful power of accumulated, boosted EM 
caused by unexpected interaction of human electronic inventions 
and natural EM forces. Such as some speculate brought down 
TWA 800.

What also comes out is that each unit of every major weapons 
system, theirs and ours (and civilian devices) can be identified 
by its unique EM  "fingerprint" -- nuclear sub, B1B, F117, AF One, 
your family Sports-ute, your chattering computer, cellphone and 
pager. As if anyone except the NSA can siphon and sort through 
them all, the compromising emanations are Out There awaiting
receivers of secret messages unintentionally sent.

A loud and clear message is that electronification of culture is
causing a build-up of powerful latent lightning looking for a ground
to blast, a sub to sink, a bomber to shatter. Be prepared for a 
technological attack, to be blamed on terrorists, but really caused 
by the expected EM effects Tesla warned about.





From ryan at arianrhod.systemics.ai  Mon Sep  7 12:30:48 1998
From: ryan at arianrhod.systemics.ai (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 03:30:48 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <v0313030ab219b7376d3b@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <E0zG6wN-00071Z-00@arianrhod.systemics.ai>



> Indeed, weren't you developing some kind of distributed eternity server? So
> much for eternity, I guess.

I believe Eternity depends upon a viable electronic cash system.  I put 
Eternity DDS on hold until one existed, and switched to working on HINDE,
a project with Ian Goldberg, to create a workable electronic cash system.
Creating a workable electronic cash system became...complicated (e.g. given
that I was recently at Bob Hettinga's electronic cash conference in Boston
giving a technical presentation, and it turns out the new CEO of DigiCash
was i the audience as "an interested investor"...perhaps it was impolitic
of me to continually bash DigiCash and David Chaum in a group of people
who I did not all definitely know to not be DigiCash employees...)  

Ian's gone on to do
Zero-Knowledge Systems, and I'm now working on what follows in this
email, so HINDE, the defined as the cypherpunkish protest against DigiCash, 
is probably quiescent.  Don't read anything into that, though.

For backing up the Cypherpunks Archives, I could have done just as well
by setting up two identical machines with rsync mirroring the drives.  I do
this kind of thing with real data, but didn't feel the 1gb of archive data
was high enough importance to mirror.  It appears the machine will be up
in a week or so, and if the drive is broken, I will send it off to a drive
recovery place for recovery, so the archives will be up, minus the most
recent month or two, in a month, at the outside.
> 
> Ryan, could you tell us what you are working on, and what has taken you out
> of the country?
The two answers are related, but distinct.

I am working on an interesting project with an interesting organization to
develop interesting applications for interesting clients.  I would provide
more detail here now if I could, and will in the future.

I have left the US for many reasons.  One, because I can, at least now.  I left
about a month ago.  I'm increasingly concerned about y2k issues, and my
situation in Boston (living about 0.25 miles from the exact center of Boston)
was not at all compatible with the kind of preparation I believe in.  I am
concerned not so much with the primary/prompt effects of y2k as I am
of societal panic and the government's response, perhaps proactive, to
that panic.

I left because the crypto policies of the US were getting increasingly
obnoxious, although I am a US citizen, and am not violating any EAR
restrictions.  (I'm actually probably obeying US law even more totally
here than I did when I lived in the US -- in Cambridge, MA, it is a 
crime to "interdigitate", that is, to hold hands with someone of the opposite
sex.  I think I was actually a potential felon before I left too, as I had an 
unpaid library fine at the Boston Public Library which I paid the day before
I left, and I believe having outstanding fines for greater than a year is
a felony in MA, a holdover from colonial times.)

I left because I wanted to be doing more, and plotting/scheming about what
I could be doing if I were not in the US less.  

I left because the US is just not the best place for me to live at the
current time, given that my primary goal right now is to accomplish the
"interesting projects".  

I left because in a time of uncertainty about the future, it is nice to
be far away from both soft targets and fundamentally self-serving
organizations with large amounts of power and no constraints upon
their use of such.

Given that I haven't actually broken any laws in coming here, and am being
scrupulous to avoid breaking any while I'm here, it wasn't really that
big a change.  I sold my stereo and long-term-loaned my larger computers
and monitors to one of my former housemates, but if things didn't work out, 
I could very easily move back to the US.  However, I can't imagine any
situations where this is a worthwhile choice.  I was thinking about the
things in the US I could conceivably miss -- some heavy industrial things,
the Grand Canyon, and MAE-East, and all of them can be substituted
with other things elsewhere.

So, leaving was somewhat supported by what I'm working on, but neither
really required the other -- they were independent choices which made
sense independently and made even more sense together.

I'd encourage anyone interested in leaving the US for a few years to 
seriously consider doing so ASAP, before 1 January 1999 if at all possible.
It takes some time to get set up in a new place, and you want this all
sorted out before any potential uncertainty becomes reality.

If I had the money and time to set myself up in the US with a reasonable
plot of land far away from any nearby targets or attackers, I would have
considered it more than I did, but I don't yet have investment income to
live from, so I needed a place where I could make a reasonable amount of
money, and Montana wasn't quite it.  For those who can, or who were lucky
enough to find themselves in that position before the y2k uncertainty
became a pressing issue, staying in place may easily make more sense.

Anguilla is actually a pretty reasonable choice as far as a place to
spend a few years away from the US -- 7 000 people, many with a strong
libertarian bent because they've always owned their own land, reasonable
comms, no taxes, accessible through a neighboring island's jet airport
but not really a place with a lot of through-traffic itself, etc.  If you
stockpile a bit of food and supplies, you're probably all set -- security
is nowhere near as big an issue here as it would be in most of the US.  I
was objectively evaluating my situation in Boston, and it would have required
more than a reinforced brigade to provide any reasonable security there.  The
cost of that buys an awful lot of canned/nitrogen-packed food...  I'm sure
there are other places in the world which are reasonable, but I've
only really looked at Anguilla, due to fc99, and I knew people here already.





From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep  7 13:01:27 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:01:27 +0800
Subject: Archives? What archives?
In-Reply-To: <tw77lzf3oun.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <v04011705b219d5cf7106@[139.167.130.246]>



At 11:49 AM -0400 on 9/7/98, Ryan Lackey wrote:


> I'm currently in the wrong country to fix the drive, and don't expect to
> be back.

Here comes another American-African...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep  7 13:01:35 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:01:35 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <tw790jw2am5.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <v04011706b219d6a9a45d@[139.167.130.246]>



At 12:17 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Tim May trolled:

> Ryan, could you tell us what you are working on, and what has taken you out
> of the country?

If I told you, I would have to kill you?

Seriously, Ryan and Ian were both moderators the Philodox Symposium on
Digital Bearer Transaction Settlement, held this July at the Harvard Club
in Boston. During the Symposium, they had several dinner conversations with
a couple of Symposium participants from a company which will remain
nameless, and they're currently putting together a digital bearer
transaction settlement system for those folks. Somewhere. :-).

Also there at the Symposium was Scott Loftesness, who's now the new
president of DigiCash, though the rest of us didn't know that at the time.
I was hoping someone from DigiCash would show up. I just didn't know
exactly how successful I was going to be in that until about two weeks ago.

Of course, a good time was had by all, including the likes of Dan Geer,
John Muller, some fairly serious financial people from Citicorp and VISA
and EGold, and several other interesting folks from various walks of
crypto, finance, and law. Had a great time, wish you were there, and all
that.

Yup, that financial technology evangelism stuff's just a waste of time.
Never gonna amount to much.

:-).

For my next trick  (besides some road-show DBTS seminars I'd like to do,
some speeches at upcoming electronic commerce/trading conferences in places
like Boston and London, the DBTS series I'm doing for Duncan Goldie-Scott's
online edition of the Financial Times, a white paper I'm doing for a credit
card company, some other fee-and-referral-commission consulting contracts,
and a few threatend projects from book editors <whew!>:-)) is a
chinese-wall, peer-reviewed legal conference on digital bearer settlement,
hopefully next summer. I'm recruiting the program chair now, and have
several people you've probably heard of in mind for the program committee,
though ultimately that's the committee chairman's decision.

Having some fun, *now*, as those SNL wild and crazy guys used to say...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep  7 13:01:38 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:01:38 +0800
Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 4.21:New Up-Scale Home Designs Reflect PrivacyConcerns
Message-ID: <v04011708b219e8e4edb6@[139.167.130.246]>




--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com
From: "ama-gi ISPI" <offshore at email.msn.com>
To: <Undisclosed.Recipients at majordomo.pobox.com>
Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 4.21:New Up-Scale Home Designs Reflect Privacy Concerns
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:35:26 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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ISPI Clips 4.21: New Up-Scale Home Designs Reflect Privacy Concerns
News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI)
Monday September 7, 1998
ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This From: The Washington Post, Saturday, September 5, 1998; Page E03
http://www.washingtonpost.com

The Neo-Fortress Home: Can the Concept Be Defended?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-09/05/070l-090598-idx.html


By
Roger K. Lewis


"A House for the New Millennium" was the headline on a recent Wall Street
Journal article about residential design trends. It should have read, "A
House for the New Millionaires," or perhaps, "A House for Fearful
Millionaires."

With a full-color, bird's-eye view illustration and a tabulation of what's
in and what's out, writer June Fletcher predicts that homes of the future
will "look more like medieval fortresses than futuristic bubbles." Picture
what Fletcher calls the Neo-Fortress Movement: towers and turrets; walled
yards; locked gates; and tall, narrow windows.

And most of the examples she cites have fortress-like price tags. At the
low end were subdivision houses in Arizona ranging from $382,000 to
$639,000. More typical were $950,000 homes in California; $1 million homes
in Kentucky and Pennsylvania; a 10,000-square-foot, $3.3 million spec home
in New Jersey; and a 14,000-square-foot, $8 million home in Florida.

"The neo-fortress style reflects end-of-the-century anxieties about privacy
and security," according to the article, along with diminishing home owner
interest in the "showy houses of the '80s, with their soaring ceilings,
open floor plans and huge windows that invite passersby to peer in and
check out the furniture."

On the article's "out" list: Palladian windows, Greek columns, grand
entries, two-story plans, big lawns, common areas, great rooms and computer
nooks in kitchens. On the "in" list: motor courts, walled courtyards,
single-story plans, numerous defined rooms, 10-foot ceilings, two home
offices and turrets.

Turrets, California architect Barry Berkus told the Journal, "connote
fortification and strength." Indeed, Berkus suggests that people are
attracted to turrets because they evoke lonely, romantic symbols such as
lighthouses and silos.

By the time I reached the end of the article, I was wondering what the
average American homeowner or home buyer might make of all this, not to
mention architects and builders who create houses that buck or ignore this
fortification trend. In 2001, would those of us whose homes sport large
windows, vaulted ceilings and lack medievally inspired towers feel
vulnerable and defenseless as well as out of fashion?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong, either aesthetically or functionally,
with most of the trendy features mentioned in the article. Walled-in
courtyards, towers and narrow windows have been around for thousands of
years. Constructing homes with discrete, functionally differentiated rooms
is an established tradition. In most cultures, visually separating spaces
for private, domestic use from public spaces is a standard and desirable
practice.

But these design elements and strategies for shaping a house should be
employed when they fit the circumstances and context pertaining to the
house, its location and site, its occupants and its occupants' budget.

Thus the courtyard house, which evolved as the dominant residential
building type in ancient Mediterranean, African, southern European and
Asian cultures, is well suited for mild climates where inhabitants can
spend much of the year outdoors in the courtyard, and where they don't have
to cope with snow and ice -- places such as Florida, Texas, New Mexico,
Arizona and California.

But courtyard houses usually make little sense in New England, upstate New
York, Appalachia, the upper Midwest or the foothills of the Rockies.

One-level courtyard homes fit poorly on sites that aren't reasonably flat
or on tight, awkwardly shaped lots. Given their introverted nature, they
are rarely the logical choice for lots with dramatic views.

Generally, the one-level courtyard house configuration is among the more
expensive ways to build a home. It is much less compact than other building
types, especially the two- or three-story, cubicly shaped house with
basement and attic. It entails more roof area and perimeter wall surface to
enclose a given amount of interior space, resulting in not only increased
construction costs but also increased heating, cooling and maintenance
costs.

Some could read the Wall Street Journal article and mistakenly infer that
the neo-fortress style may be perfectly okay for anyone, anywhere. Clearly
it is not.

But there's something more disturbing than the potential for readers to
draw incorrect inferences about architectural styling. The report implies
that Americans' perceptions, attitudes and behavior are increasingly shaped
by security concerns. Segregation and isolation, not integration and
connection, seem to preoccupy more and more citizens who want to live not
only in gated communities, but also in gated homes.

Referring to the $8 million home in Florida with a pair of turrets,
Fletcher reports that the turret near the garage houses a platform accessed
by a circular stair and a fireman's pole. "The client," noted the builder,
"thought it would be great for his grandchildren to be able to shoot their
BB guns out the window, then slide down the pole."

Before arriving at this Florida bastion, perhaps visitors should know more
about the prospective BB gun targets as well as the rest of the home
arsenal -- what about crossbows and boiling oil?

The $1 million builder's house in Kentucky encompasses 10,000 square feet
and has a three-story, outdoor media room, according to Fletcher, including
a shower, hot tub, fireplace, gazebo with built-in television and
kitchenette, bar, small pool and waterfall. The owners boast that, when
fireworks are flying in distant Cincinnati, they can sit in their outdoor
media room and watch the fireworks live and on television at the same time,
experiencing the real and the virtual simultaneously.

Could this be the ultimate suburban house, a house connected only
electronically to the rest of the world, a house you never would have to
leave?

Courtyard homes can be wonderful in their place, their virtues being
spatial amenity, not defendability. They should be built not to escape the
communal world outside, but rather to heighten enjoyment of the familial
world inside.

As for turrets, man's home may be his castle, but it doesn't have to look
like one.

� Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company


--------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------
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ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research
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But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and
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--- end forwarded text


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From stuffed at stuffed.net  Tue Sep  8 04:33:40 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Man arrested while screwing Pumpkin/Couple caught screwing in monkey cage
Message-ID: <19980908071001.16643.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Sep  7 14:34:09 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:34:09 +0800
Subject: clinton digital signing
Message-ID: <199809072131.OAA29302@netcom13.netcom.com>




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:04:12 +1200
To: snetnews at world.std.com
From: "ScanThisNews" <mcdonalds at airnet.net> (by way of
 jeremy.compton at stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Jeremy Compton))
Subject: SNET: [FP] FW: Clinton "Useless" w/o Pen: Uses SmartCard Encrption


- ->  SNETNEWS  Mailing List

[Forwarded message]

Clinton "Useless" w/o Pen: Uses SmartCard Encrption

Source:  Fox News - AP
http://www.foxnews.com/js_index.sml?content=/news/wires2/

WHITE HOUSE NOTEBOOK: Clinton feels 'utterly useless' without his pen
 6.33 p.m. ET (2233 GMT) September 4, 1998

 By Shawn Pogatchnik, Associated Press

 DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) � What's the point of being president if you can't
use your pen?

 Seated at matching laptops, President Clinton and Irish Prime Minister
Bertie Ahern used "smart cards,'' personalized codes and digital readers
Friday to electronically affix their signatures to an electronic commerce
agreement.

 Clinton joked that he missed the old-fashioned way of approving deals.

 "Do you have any idea how much time I spend every day signing my name? I'm
going to feel utterly useless if I can't do that anymore,'' he said.

 He also offered this insight on being president: "You know, by the time
you become the leader of a country, someone else makes all the decisions.
You just sign your name.

 "You may find you can get away with virtual presidents, virtual prime
ministers, virtual everything. You know, just stick a little card in and
get the predictable response.''

<snip part about Clinton's golf game>

                  � 1998 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
- -----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
- -----------------------

- -----Original Message-----
From: believer at telepath.com [mailto:believer at telepath.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 1998 6:09 PM
To: believer at telepath.com
Subject: Clinton "Useless" w/o Pen: Uses SmartCard Encrption



- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo at world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: "ScanThisNews" <mcdonalds at airnet.net> (by way of jeremy.compton at stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Jeremy Compton))


------- End of Forwarded Message





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From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep  7 14:34:41 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:34:41 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v0313030ab219b7376d3b@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <v0401170db219f0b9c52c@[139.167.130.246]>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


At 3:38 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Robert Hettinga wrote about Ryan Lackey's
whereabouts, on cypherpunks:

> If I told you, I would have to kill you?

Whew. Glad Ryan has now said something publically now about his and Ian's bit
of extraterritorial subtrifuge (though Ian  doesn't qualify, of course). I
mean, I just *hate* keeping secrets... ;-).

Frankly, I *really* have a hard time with all this
man-without-a-first-world-country, crypto-expat stuff. I think making the
technology not eonomically optional is the way to change things, and no
amount of romantic, jurisdiction-shopping "regulatory arbitrage" is going
to alter reality all that much.

But, I guess, Anguilla's as nice a place to have this affliction as any I can
think of.

And, I wish Vince -- and now, apparently, Ryan -- good luck, whatever happens.


Yet, for some reason, memories of Vietnam-era draft-dodgers keep coming to
mind. For what it cost them all personally, not much good came of it, I'd say,
for them or anyone else. The people who protested the war and "fought the good
fight" to end it stayed here to do it, after all. The most potent anti-war
activists were Vietnam vets themselves, for that matter. And, of course,
Ridgeway told Eisenhower at the outset that Vietnam was a multi-million-man
war, and Eisenhower stayed out accordingly, throwing a few marginal people on
the ground to shut Lodge up. It took Testosterone Jack to get a Special-Forces
hard-on. Eventually he and Desktop Lyndon ended up screwing a pooch
instead of the commies.


Do people out there really think somebody like Gore's going to do a
crypto-amnesty someday? I didn't think so. Ashcroft, maybe, but don't hold
your breath, there, either. It'll be decades, I bet, and our "boys over
there" will have grey hair long before they do come back home on this one.
Political inertia is probably going to keep a few people we know outside
the fence, looking in, for an awful long time after the issue's utterly
dead.

I expect people who do this crypto-expat stuff are going to get their
new passports refused at the U.S. border when they visit, and I think that
things are going to get worse for them for a long time before they get better.
Of course, there's a fair argument to be made that if they do get refused,
it's probably time to leave, anyway, but I'll let someone else gnaw that bone.

And, frankly, I *do* expect that the FBI will attempt domestic crypto
controls, just like they've been been trying to do for some time now. But,
unlike a lot of people, I think that the marketplace will steamroller all
such silliness into yet another roadtop attraction, before or after its
legislation.

Anyway, as the old "excrable" e$yllogism goes,

Digital commerce is financial cryptography.
Financial cryptography is strong cryptography.
Therefore, if there's no strong cryptography, there's no digital commerce.


So, call me an optimist.

Like I've said before, I've heard the end of life and liberty as we know it
predicted over and over again -- hell, I've even believed so myself, once or
twice -- but, like the Gibbon quote in my .sig goes, "however it may deserve
respect for its usefulness and antiquity", I ain't seen it happen yet.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5

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-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From SupportOnlineStaff_001921 at news.newswire.microsoft.com  Mon Sep  7 14:36:43 1998
From: SupportOnlineStaff_001921 at news.newswire.microsoft.com (Support Online Staff)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:36:43 +0800
Subject: Microsoft Office Support News Watch - September 7, 1998
Message-ID: <199809072128.OAA10646@toad.com>



Microsoft Office Support News Watch
===================================

As a subscriber to the Microsoft Office Support News Watch, you receive e-
mail twice each month that highlights some of the new articles recently
published on Support Online, Microsoft's award-winning technical support
web site.

Contents
--------

 - Office Update Web Site
 - Outlook Security Patch
 - Office 2000
 - Kernel32.dll Error During Office Setup
 - "No License" Error When Running Microsoft Access 97 on Windows 98
 - Get Support Online Articles by E-mail

Office Update Web Site
======================

The Office Update Web site was recently modified to make it easier for you
to find up-to-date information about Office Products. Office Update is a
free online extension of Microsoft Office that is accessible to all users.
You can access the site from the link placed prominently at the top of each
of the Office products by clicking Help, selecting Microsoft On The Web,
and then clicking Free Stuff. You can find the Office Update site at the
following address on the World Wide Web:

   http://officeupdate.microsoft.com/

The Office Update site provides the latest Office service releases,
security patches, product add-ins, new Office assistants, clip art,
templates, and custom business solutions.

Outlook Security Patch
======================

Now available is an updated security patch for Microsoft Outlook 98 that
protects you against a potential problem involving file attachments with
extremely long names as well as a variant found during continued testing.
The new location of this patch is on the Office Update site at:

   http://officeupdate.microsoft.com/updates/updOutlook.htm

Office 2000
===========

For information about features in the next version of Office, go to the
Microsoft Office 2000 site on the Internet:

   http://www.microsoft.com/office/2000/

Kernel32.dll Error During Office Setup
======================================

When installing Office 97 on Microsoft Windows 98, you may receive the
following error message:

   This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.
   If the problem persists, contact the program vendor.

If you click Details, you receive an error message similar to the
following:

   ACMSETUP caused an invalid page fault in module KERNEL32.DLL at
   0177:bff7be97.

This problem may occur when you have your CD-ROM drive configured to use
Direct Memory Access (DMA) in the Windows 98 Device Manager.

For information about this problem see Knowledge Base article Q190630.
This article is available on the Web at the following address:

   http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q190/6/30.asp

"No License" Error When Running Microsoft Access 97 on Windows 98
=================================================================

When you start Microsoft Access 97, you may receive the following error
message

   Microsoft Access can't start because there is no license for it on
   this machine.

even though you have a fully licensed copy of Microsoft Access. You may
receive this error message on a Windows 98 computer if the following
conditions are met:

 - You have installed Microsoft Publisher
 - You have installed Access from the Office 97 Professional CD

Certain fonts that are installed by Microsoft Publisher can result in the
incorrect registration of Microsoft Access 97, but only when Access is
being installed from the Office 97 Professional CD. You can correct the
registration error by using either of the following methods:

 - Rename one of the problem fonts, and then reinstall Microsoft Access
   from the Setup Maintenance Mode.

    -or-

 - Download a tool that Microsoft has on its Downloads Web site that
   corrects this problem.

Renaming the Font and Reinstalling Microsoft Access
---------------------------------------------------

Reinstalling Microsoft Access 97 using the Setup Maintenance Mode does not
require you to uninstall Microsoft Access first; it simply returns the
computer to the install state that it was in the last time Setup was run.
Follow these steps to correct the registry error:

 1. On the Start menu, point to Find, and then click Files Or Folders.

 2. In the Named box, type "hatten.ttf" (without the quotation marks).

 3. In the Look In box, type "C:\Windows\Fonts" (without the quotation
    marks) or the path to the Fonts folder on your computer.

 4. Click the Find Now button to start the search.

 5. Under Name, right-click the hatten.ttf file, and click Rename on
    the menu that appears.

 6. Change the name of the file to "hatten.xxx" (without the quotation
    marks).

 7. Minimize (but do not close) the Find dialog box.

 8. On the Start Menu, point to Settings, and click Control Panel.

 9. In Control Panel, double-click Add/Remove Programs.

10. In the Add/Remove Program Properties dialog box, select the
    Install/Uninstall tab and select Microsoft Office 97, Professional
    Edition from the program list.

11. Click the Add/Remove button to run Office Setup in Maintenance
    Mode.

12. In the Microsoft Office 97 Setup dialog box, click Reinstall.

13. Once the reinstallation is finished, click the Find dialog box on
    the Windows taskbar to maximize it.

14. Under Name, right-click the hatten.xxx file, and click Rename on
    the menu that appears.

15. Change the name of the file to "hatten.ttf" (without the quotation
    marks).

Microsoft Access should now be properly registered.

Using the Downloadable Tool
---------------------------

The AcLicn97.exe file contains a tool that corrects the problem discussed
in this article so that you can run Microsoft Access 97 successfully. You
can download AcLicn97.exe from the following Microsoft Web site:

   http://support.microsoft.com/download/support/mslfiles/ACLICN97.EXE

AcLicn97.exe is a self-expanding archive. Run the file to expand its
contents, and then run the expanded file, AcLicens.exe, to properly
register Microsoft Access 97 on your computer. Please note that this
download will only work if the conditions stated above are met. For
solutions to other causes of the same error message, please see the
following article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:

   ARTICLE-ID: Q141373
   TITLE     : ACC: "There is no license" Error Starting Microsoft
   Access

   http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q141/3/73.asp

Get Support Online Articles by E-mail
=====================================

You can receive these articles (and others) in e-mail by sending a message
to mshelp at microsoft.com. In the Subject line of your message, enter the
Article-ID number (Qnnnnnn). For example to receive Q162721, your Subject
line should resemble the following example:

   Subject: Q162721

You can have multiple articles sent to you in e-mail by typing multiple
Article-ID numbers separated by a comma. For example:

   Subject: Q178049, Q174914, Q174062

To receive an index of articles, enter "Index" (without quotation marks) in
the Subject line. For example:

   Subject: Index

The MSHelp Index is updated monthly. For more information about MSHelp, see
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q183/1/21.asp.


Sincerely,
The Support Online Team

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THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.  The information contained in this document represents the current view of Microsoft Corporation on the issues discussed as of the date of publication.  Because Microsoft must respond to change in market conditions, it should not be interpreted to be a commitment on the part of Microsoft and Microsoft cannot guarantee the accuracy of any information presented after the date of publication.
INFORMATION PROVIDED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED 'AS IS' WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND FREEDOM FROM INFRINGEMENT.
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1.   All text must be copied without modification and all pages must be included
2.   All copies must contain Microsoft's copyright notice and any other notices provided therein
3.   This document may not be distributed for profit





From mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca  Mon Sep  7 14:41:45 1998
From: mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca (M Taylor)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:41:45 +0800
Subject: request for [cdn] export laws.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980905160024.0070f7c0@dowco.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980907181430.12925A-100000@privacy.nb.ca>



On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, jkthomson wrote:

> I have been looking for the export restrictions (if any) that regulate
> canadian encryption products.  I have tried searching the net for a little
> while, and although I have found a few (contradictory) blurbs on it, I have
> found no 'official' documents or links to them.  does this information
> exist on the web, and if not, who would be the best department to ask so
> that I get the least red-tape or 'runaround'?
> 
>  james 'keith' thomson <jkthomson at bigfoot.com>  www.bigfoot.com/~ceildh

Yes Canada has export restrictions, which are handled by the Department of
Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT). The particular act you
should be interested in is the "Export and Import Control Act of Canada."
The DFAIT freely distributes "A Guide to Canada's Export Controls" which
was updated in 1996, and is available from the International Trade Centers
of the Gov't of Canada, see the blue pages in your phone book.

Excerpts from the Export Control List of Canada 
<http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/ECL.html> outline the regulations relating to
'Information Security' which includes encryption.

Encryption software may fall under the "General Software Note":
------------
This List does not embargo "software" which is either:

a.Generally available to the public by being: 
  1.Sold from stock at retail selling points, without restriction, by
  means of: 
    a.Over-the-Counter transactions; 
    b.Mail order transactions; or 
    c.Telephone call transactions; and 
  2.Designed for installation by the user without further substantial
  support by the supplier; or 
b.In the public domain". 

>From the definitions of pp 49-55

"In the public domain" 
  As it applies to the International Lists, means "technology" or 
"software" which has been made available without restrictions upon its
further dissemination.
N.B.
Copyright restrictions do not remove "technology" or "software" from being
"in the public domain". 
------------

Further references:
 Canadian Cryptography Page
 http://fractal.mta.ca/crypto/

 Canada's export controls by Marc Plumb <mp at the-wire.com> 
 http://www.efc.ca/pages/doc/crypto-export.html

 Excerpts from the Export Control List of Canada by W. G. Unruh
<unruh at physics.ubc.ca> 
 http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/ECL.html

 Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
 http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/
 (I have yet to find anything of use from the DFAIT site)

 Cryptography / Cryptographie Industry Canada
 http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/crypto
 (talk about the idea of changes to current policy)

 International Crypto Law Survey, by Bert-Jaap Koops 
 http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

 Canadian Export Controls on Encryption Products and Technology by Stewart
A. Baker and Michael D. Hintze
 http://www.steptoe.com/encryp.htm


--
M Taylor   mctaylor@  /  glyphmetrics.ca | privacy.nb.ca





From declan at well.com  Mon Sep  7 14:43:48 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:43:48 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <v03130308b219b1d32914@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907143754.17348A-100000@well.com>



We even make an illusion to Monica's Cigar in a story in this week's Time.
A Microsoft story I was working on died at the last moment, unfortunately.

As for the crypto bills, there is no comparable Senate bill. Certainly
this is not for lack of sponsors: Kyl and Feinstein would be glad to
introduce it, and Kyl chairs a relevant subcommittee. But they wanted to
see how far they'd get with McCain's bill, and now it's too late to do
much, as Tim said. 

-Declan


On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:

> At 6:53 AM -0700 9/7/98, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >There is, offically, a proposal on the table to limit speech within the
> >U.S. by restricting sale, manufacture, distribution, import of non-GAK'd
> >crypto. A House committee approved that one year ago.
> >
> 
> I'd forgotten about that little one. Of course, it has not gone anywhere
> (no Senate version or committee markup, right?), so I'm not yet ready to
> say there's official action on its way. And, fortunately, the session is
> over but for the shouting about Clinton and his cigars.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> "The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
> tyrants...."
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 14:46:45 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:46:45 +0800
Subject: Government Regulation & Scienctific Research (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809072204.RAA05499@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 02:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Alan Olsen <alan at clueserver.org>
> Subject: Re: Government Regulation & Scienctific Research

> I expect the first world to start to take after the East German model.

You mean the one that failed after only 40 years?...

> -- Those who are precieved as being a possible threat will be
> marginalized, jailed, forced to flee, or co-opted.
> 
> -- A large portion of the population will be devoted towards control of
> the population.  (Either in law enforcement, paid snitches, propaganda, or
> similar activities.)

There is a problem with these two conclusions. In short, the impact on
American business would be devastating. It won't happen to this degree for
the simple reason that there wouldn't be anyone to actualy pay for it and
the American citizen is a LOT less likely to stand their post after 3 months
of not getting paid then a Stasi proll ever did.

If you think about it a moment there are really only TWO issues driving this
entire situation in this country:

-  increased technology and its run-away consequences are completely
   beyond the keen of politico's because they can't spend the number of
   hours per day playing with it to understand it AND still run a
   campaign. They feeled threatened and as a consequence their national
   model (in their heads) is threatened. Politicians hate to hear:
   "Oh, I don't need any help. Thanks." With the ease that technology
   jumps ANY boundary it's a futile task they've handed themselves.

-  the drug war. With the movement currently gaining strength in this
   country for medical marijuana and the knock-down-drag-out that's
   coming between the states and the feds over it, the cost will be
   prohibitive. We are currently at something like 1/150 people in this
   country in jail, the majority for minor drug offences. The impact
   of this (this is 1 person in jail out of every 2 blocks of homes)
   on the citizen-government relationship is souring fast. When the
   police in San Francisco say on national news they won't prosecute
   pot houses because they "have more important things to deal with like
   murder and burglary" something big is coming...

   And it ain't a bunch of nazi stormtroopers on every corner.

> -- Much of the Government's budget will be devoted to citizen control.

No it won't, it will be dedicated to spin-control and legerdemain.
Government toadies like their air conditioned desks entirely too much.

> In 50 years I expect that the creative citizenry will either be
> underground, fled, or no longer participating in the active discorse of
> the society.  All of the life will be sucked out of the population in
> order to fight the "Scapegoats of the Week/Month/Year/Century". 

I doubt it. What's going to happen is that the reach of government is going
to weaken because it's going to become harder (not easier) to track
individuals. Why do you think these folks are so hot and heavy on this now?
They know something is coming that will make their world-view irrelevant and
it scares the hell out of them.

History shows that any country that does what you describe lasts no more
than a couple of generations (the 20 yr. kind). Even if you go back to the
Romans you will find that there is a definite pattern to the way the laws
swing from restrictive to permissive.

> It will only fall apart when we reach a level where no one wants to live
> here any more and it falls apart from internal system failure and
> hemoraging.

It will fall apart because much of the discussion will become irrelevant.

It's interesting that doom-sayers like yourself never mention that the
number of opposition camps to the fed's is growing, not lessening. They are
finding it harder, not easier, to figure out what people are doing and why.
The one negative aspect to this movement is that it tends to attrack very
indipendant individuals who don't know how to cooperate, cooperation is the
only advantage the feds have on their side.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 14:50:42 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:50:42 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809072208.RAA05578@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 17:29:12 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
> Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism

> Ridgeway told Eisenhower at the outset that Vietnam was a multi-million-man
> war, and Eisenhower stayed out accordingly, throwing a few marginal people on
> the ground to shut Lodge up. It took Testosterone Jack to get a Special-Forces
> hard-on. Eventually he and Desktop Lyndon ended up screwing a pooch
> instead of the commies.

Balonely, do your research somewhere beside a bar. JFK had no intention of
sending more troops in and every intention of withdrawing the troops that
were there. There are two sources you can look at to verify this. The first
is the troop count over time and the internal presidential memos to the
Chiefs of Staff. Had JFK not been shot there would have been NO US troops in
Vietnam by the end of '64.

LBJ is the nit-wit who crewed the proverbial pooch.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Mon Sep  7 14:57:24 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:57:24 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <tw790jw2am5.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907145305.17348E-100000@well.com>



I have ~100 MB from 4/97 to present archived in mbox form. I can FTP it or
make it available to anyone who might need it to restore the archive.

-Declan


On 7 Sep 1998, Ryan Lackey wrote:

> > There is another archive at http://sof.mit.edu/cypherpunks, ironically
> > the machine that hosts it is not up at the moment
> 
> The machine suffered either disk controller or HDD problems as I was
> logged into it.  It is located in Boston, MA.  I do not currently have
> a way of getting to the machine to repair it, and this will likely
> continue to be true, so until I can get one of the people I know at
> the site where the machine is located to fix it, the archives will be
> offline.  If the machine cannot be fixed, I will put the archive up
> elsewhere.  I believe hugh at toad.com copied the entire archive at some
> point, so that might be helpful.
> 
> Sorry about this -- replicated servers are always a good idea.
> -- 
> Ryan Lackey
> rdl at mit.edu
> http://sof.mit.edu/rdl/		
> 
> 
> 
> 





From declan at well.com  Mon Sep  7 14:57:50 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:57:50 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <199809071546.LAA21825@camel7.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907145410.17348F-100000@well.com>



If anyone does it with an eye to civil disobedience, let me know. But the
bill isn't law yet, and one might reasonably hope that it won't be.

The details vary. First it was crypto in the commission of a felony. Now
it's been narrowed considerably, though not all bills have the "better"
version.

-Declan

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, John Young wrote:

> It would be fitting for this list to be distinguished as
> the place where crypto-in-a-crime was first committed.
> 
> What might that be? A match of the crime committed
> to prevent widespread strong crypto?
> 
> Crypto-criminal anonymity in the national interest (governmental
> secrecy) fighting to prevent crypto-criminal anonymity in the 
> public interest (private secrecy).
> 
> This is not a troll, but query on what could be done to to tip the 
> hand and identify those unnamed who are most fearful of strong 
> cryptography, not their public rougers in the 3 divs of gov.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From declan at well.com  Mon Sep  7 14:59:32 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:59:32 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <v0313030bb219b85ab18e@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907145527.17348G-100000@well.com>





On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:
> 
> However, "crypto in a crime" has not become law yet. And if we can keep
> those pesky "civil rights" lobbyists in D.C. neutralized, maybe it never
> will be. With any luck, these curriers of favor are inside the fallout
> pattern from Bin Laden's nuke.

Taking no position on "public interest" groups for this post, I'd still
note that such lobbyists don't really drive legislation in this area. It's
business groups, especially the Americans For Computer Privacy alliance,
that are drafting the bills and twisting the arms.

And their E-PRIVACY bill has crypto-in-a-crime in it.

-Declan






From ryan at systemics.ai  Mon Sep  7 15:27:11 1998
From: ryan at systemics.ai (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:27:11 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v0401170db219f0b9c52c@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <E0zG9gU-0000D4-00@arianrhod.systemics.ai>



(Note: my original message was posted to Cypherpunks, which I consider
to be substantially different than DBS: had I been posting to DBS, I would
have included different details...list differentiation is kin of useful,
it's why the different lists were created in the first place)
> 
> At 3:38 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Robert Hettinga wrote about Ryan Lackey's
> whereabouts, on cypherpunks:
> 
> > If I told you, I would have to kill you?

I never said this.  If you'd like to fabricate/summarize/editorialize,
please make it clear that that's what you're doing, by using the traditionally
accepted editorial convention of square brackets, or some other convention.
I prefer Chicago Manual of Style, but I'm sure the AP Stylebook is acceptable.
> 
> Whew. Glad Ryan has now said something publically now about his and Ian's bit
> of extraterritorial subtrifuge (though Ian  doesn't qualify, of course). I
> mean, I just *hate* keeping secrets... ;-).
> 
Ian Goldberg isn't involved -- he's working on Zero Knowledge Systems,
AFAIK, and I wish him luck, but I haven't really spoken to him in months.  He's
a Canadian, anyway.  I haven't mentioned working with anyone else anywhere,
other than that I'm working for "interesting" clients.  If you know otherwise,
it isn't particularly public knowledge at this point.

> Frankly, I *really* have a hard time with all this
> man-without-a-first-world-country, crypto-expat stuff. I think making the
> technology not eonomically optional is the way to change things, and no
> amount of romantic, jurisdiction-shopping "regulatory arbitrage" is going
> to alter reality all that much.

I'm not breaking US law.  I'm a US citizen.  I pay my taxes, respect US
law, etc.  It's just that I'm choosing to work on something somewhere other
than the US, for a variety of reasons.

> And, I wish Vince -- and now, apparently, Ryan -- good luck, whatever happens.

Vince formally renounced his citizenship, becoming a citizen of a small
african country, and intends to remain in Anguilla.  I left the US
for a while to work on stuff, and to get away from a major US city for
a while.  I think there's a huge difference here.  What I have
done is fundamentally no different than going to Montana to write code
for a while, other than that it was cheaper and more convenient for me to
come to Anguilla.

(Of course, Vince seems to be doing quite well...)  I just happen to not want
to go back to the US right now, it's not that I can't if I decide I want
to at some point.

Thanks,
Ryan
(who generally does not provide confidential information to people
who do not like keeping secrets, out of kindness for them)





From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Sep  7 15:33:10 1998
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:33:10 +0800
Subject: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v0401170db219f0b9c52c@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <000501bddaaf$fd1844c0$5f8195cf@blanc>



Bob Hettinga wrote:

: Anyway, as the old "excrable" e$yllogism goes,
:
: Digital commerce is financial cryptography.
: Financial cryptography is strong cryptography.
: Therefore, if there's no strong cryptography, there's no
: digital commerce.
................................................................


It could justify becoming an exile, to develop the strong crypto needed for digital
commerce.
The conditions are right for it.

    ..
Blanc





From CRBREW9802 at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 15:40:23 1998
From: CRBREW9802 at aol.com (CRBREW9802 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:40:23 +0800
Subject: h
Message-ID: <d51409ab.35f45e17@aol.com>



how did u do it





From iang at systemics.com  Mon Sep  7 15:41:35 1998
From: iang at systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:41:35 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v0401170db219f0b9c52c@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199809072239.SAA02421@systemics.com>



> At 3:38 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Robert Hettinga wrote about Ryan Lackey's
> whereabouts, on cypherpunks:
>
> > If I told you, I would have to kill you?
>
> Whew. Glad Ryan has now said something publically now about his and Ian's bit
> of extraterritorial subtrifuge (though Ian  doesn't qualify, of course). I
> mean, I just *hate* keeping secrets... ;-).

As secrets go, this was not a big one...  The main thing that is
meant to be confidential was the nature and names of our clients,
and under normal business practice, they hold the option(s) on PR.
I don't think anyone should need to die to protect that, as even then,
their main issue is (probably) not revealing a relationship with a
product until it did what they wanted.

> Frankly, I *really* have a hard time with all this
> man-without-a-first-world-country, crypto-expat stuff.

Well, it's not *quite* like that.  The US was seriously considered,
but Ryan's offer of a fraternity bedroom/office, T1 or no T1, was
not as attractive as some time in the sun.  After all, FC came to
Anguilla for good reasons.

Also, there are other sites under long term consideration, not
in the US, but in other cool places.  The main reason for
considering these sites is that they make business sense; and
they are definately cool.  Maybe we'll keep the details to
ourselves until they are vapour-compliant.

It should be mentioned that the contagion properties of
renouncement are somewhat less than epidemic.  Vince decided to
"do the deed," but others are not exactly leaping for their
passports and Lonely Planet guides.  In fact, most of the at-risk
group here are still swearing by the bible and running up the flag
every morning, just in case anybody gets the wrong idea.  Or at
least that's what it seems like to those of us immunised at birth.

iang





From fsigs at relay.lg.co.kr  Mon Sep  7 16:02:32 1998
From: fsigs at relay.lg.co.kr (fsigs at relay.lg.co.kr)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:02:32 +0800
Subject: FutureSignals
Message-ID: <ewdgdwxxevbosipm>



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From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Sep  7 16:05:47 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:05:47 +0800
Subject: (fwd) Re: KRAP is at it in the IETF
Message-ID: <199809072253.XAA08953@server.eternity.org>




A GAKker breaks cover on dbs list as a result of William Geigers heads
up on the issue... The GAK apologists are very thin on the ground in
public discussion forums generally, so it is nice to see the odd one
speak up.  Seems like they are too busy taking government handouts to
implement KRAP to actually own up to their misdeeds in public,
generally.

Adam

======================================================================
From: "Todd S. Glassey" <TSGman at earthlink.net>
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii at invweb.net>, <dbs at philodox.com>
Cc: <tom_markham at securecomputing.com>, "JeffreySchiller" <jis at mit.edu>,
	"MarcusLeech" <mlecch at nortel.ca>,
	"Robert G. Moskowitz" <rgm at icsa.net>, <tytso at mit.edu>
Subject: RE: KRAP is at it in the IETF
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:38:50 -0700

William,
Let me start with the disclaimer since I am going to vehemently disagree
with you - These are my own opinions and in no way reflect my companies or
our clients Opinions, etc. etc. etc. -

So William - IMHO, you are missing the point totally. The IETF is an
A-Political Organization investing in the development of technical standards
to accomplish various networking services. As to the issue of Politic vs.
Technology, by its actions alone, KRAP's demonstrated agenda with the IETF
is purely technical and whether it is in furtherance of its external
political agenda is really irrelevant to the IETF as and its established
process as a whole.

>From my vantage point, the real issue herein is your personal/moral standing
with the dissolving of anonymity through Key Recovery and Government's
ability to look at data that flows over a network. Remember also that it was
the Government that was the primary subsidizer of said same network and
everything that evolved the old 56k ARPANET into what the Public Internet is
today.

As another side issue, the other potentially-viable argument is that
ISAKMP/IKE is so far along in its process of becoming a standard, that
adding a late draft impedes the value of the work already done - Essentially
that these folks  (KRAP) have essentially slipped a whammy onto the stack.
Is it your view that this implies that because of this later posting that
the material will be exempt from the general scrutiny that the previous
components of ISAKMP/IKE have been through - I don't think so... This crowd
loves to do the Pit-Bull thang and shred the submitted concepts to glean the
technical truth therein. If this is the issue then the answer is to work
within the existing framework and to submit a public motion to the WG to
freeze the ISAKMP last call efforts so that they exclude the new draft until
such time as it (the GAK extensions) can undergo further scrutiny.

As to the issue of the addition itself being out of line because of its late
entrance into the standards arena relative to the last call and all that-
Again, I disagree as to what and how - There are numerous "standard
processes" in place that allow for this as well and that here in the real
world, use of this ability is a very common practice. Look for instance at
what happened to the last TAX REFORM effort with the addition of Senator
Moyniham's SS1706 Rider, or as another example look at what congress as a
whole did with the HIPAA legislation (http://www.hcfa.gov/regs/hipaacer.htm)
and its embedded "legal penalties" for unauthorized  disclosure of health
data. Since this case is specific to the bulk distribution of data, it
really applies directly to IT Directors and their staff. heck, imagine that
your insurance Co.'s or hospital's  IT folks could actually go to jail by
the statute set here. Again here we are at the bottom line and if this is
the thing you are objecting too then you need to object to the process not
the event itself.

As to the perversion commentary specifically... perversion is a moral issue
and is not addressed by the IETF rules (RFC2026 in particular). My
suggestion is that if you feel this is a problem that you address it at the
POISSON WG level rather than in IPSEC or PKIX since it is a process problem,
and that under the currently in-place operating rules, this thing, the
filing of a new proposed component of the ISAKMP protocol is OK to do.

- ---

Don't get me wrong, as it happens I too believe that Key Recovery is futile
effort for the government, not because it doesn't have a need for this type
of capability, but because they didn't act fast enough and the "cat is
already out of the bag". So any efforts to pull this one off will most
likely be futile and will definitely not be cost effective for normal
ECommerce operations let alone personal communications. BTW - The reality in
the Intelligence Community World is that for the surveillance of the
big-league terrorists, dope dealers, and the like, key recovery is useless
since because they are so well funded and their access to technologies is
such that they (the bad guys) can and will employ advanced technologies to
get around whatever the NSA/DSIA/DoC/DoJ put in place to thwart them. As an
example of this the Leopard's (sort of the Bolivian Govt.'s DEA Field
Agents, et al.) found that when they attacked the labs of the Median Cartel
they were out gunned and technologically overpowered to the point that
without the US Military intervention they would have no possibility of
thwarting these activities. Draw your own conclusions.

As a point of social commentary, I understand and hear your point, but if
this kind of process "invasion" as you have put it was such an issue then
how come there was so little push back was done against the "Communications
Assistance for Law Enforcement Act" (CALEA). I think that as a whole the
people against the KRAP initiatives are there because of the cost and
overhead issues, not the personal freedom ones. Thus it becomes a business
issue and not a human one.

The world is changing into a global society and the rules about personal
freedom are evolving with it... Not everyone is going to like them but the
facts are what they are and  IMHO - personally I wonder more how some local
constituency would respond to the invasion of their personal privacy when
some "pervert terrorist" parks a recently acquired nuke or Bio-toxic Weapon
from the now defunct Russian Arsenal in their backyard and pushes the #$%^&*
button. If losing absolute anonymity is the cost of better safeguarding
oneself and family from threats like these, what the heck. Its a very small
cost to pay.

My personal feeling is that since I have made the decision to live in and
work with modern society as a whole, that I must follow the edicts that
evolving technologies and social values/morals put in place by and for us as
a whole. Otherwise our choice is real simple - If you don't like the rules,
then don't play the game. Move out to the backwoods and stay out of society
as a whole.

I don't mean to be a putz by this, but come on... "a perversion". This isn't
the place for that kind of morality issue!.

Todd

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dbs at philodox.com [mailto:dbs at philodox.com]On Behalf Of William H.
> Geiger III
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 1998 1:24 AM
> To: dbs at philodox.com
> Subject: KRAP is at it in the IETF
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Hello,
>
> It has come to my attention that the KRAP (key recovery alliance program)
> has submitted an I-D (internet draft) to the IETF for adding GAK
> (government access to keys) to the IPSEC protocols:
>
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt
>
> ISAKMP Key Recovery Extensions
> <draft-rfced-exp-markham-00.txt>
>
> 7. AUTHOR INFORMATION
>
>    Tom Markham
>    Secure Computing Corp
>    2675 Long Lake Road
>    Roseville, MN 55113   USA
>
>    Phone: 651.628.2754,    Fax:   651.628.2701
>    EMail: tom_markham at securecomputing.com
>
>
> I consider this a perversion of the standards process of the IETF to
> advance a political agenda which must be stopped at all cost.
>
> Below are the e-mail addresses of some people that you should write
> (politely) expressing your objections to any such additions to the
> protocols:
>
> IPSEC Chairs:
>
> Theodore Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu>
> Robert Moskowitz <rgm at icsa.net>
>
> Security Area Directors:
>
> Jeffrey Schiller <jis at mit.edu>
> Marcus Leech <mlecch at nortel.ca>
>
> As I mentioned before, be polite. These people are not the ones proposing
> GAK be added to the IPSEC protocols. They have put a lot of time and
> effort in forwarding the cause for strong encryption. They should be made
> aware of the communities objections to these attempts by KRAP.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tag-O-Matic: It's OS/2, Jim, but not OS/2 as we know it.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>
> iQCVAwUBNfOVk49Co1n+aLhhAQFJwwP+O4vrZVKFpOG8vCHFwbDuPIv/99AhBnKF
> RK/Ikc5y2gGKq9hfxkTb4o77YUrDaEGkYUPHk+ZC57Oag0Lu1v6W1EAbQ5T4RpzH
> JWYXOonQmbqw5rH0h6brzqrH3ep9Ej9DR0gv4mGgIfSNlJSUu6TWO5ZHXKWiE4yy
> 5flH0Ngg/TI=
> =EzNL
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> Tag-O-Matic: Speed Kills - Use Windows!
>
>
>
------- End of forwarded message -------





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Sep  7 16:06:41 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:06:41 +0800
Subject: KRAP is at it in the IETF
In-Reply-To: <002701bdda9f$84ec8430$89bffad0@tsg-laptop>
Message-ID: <199809072248.XAA08942@server.eternity.org>




Todd S. Glassey writes on dbs at philodox.com (digital bearer settlement) list:
> Let me start with the disclaimer since I am going to vehemently disagree
> with you - These are my own opinions and in no way reflect my companies or
> our clients Opinions, etc. etc. etc. -

[What company do you work for?  You disclaim about your "company" and
"clients" without mention of who they are?  (I like to know who the
GAKkers are, are you with securecomptuing.com also?)]

> So William - IMHO, you are missing the point totally. The IETF is an
> A-Political Organization investing in the development of technical standards
> to accomplish various networking services. As to the issue of Politic vs.
> Technology, by its actions alone, KRAP's demonstrated agenda with the IETF
> is purely technical and whether it is in furtherance of its external
> political agenda is really irrelevant to the IETF as and its established
> process as a whole.

I understood it this way: that IETF policy is not allow political
considerations to weaken or otherwise damage security functions in
IETF standards.  eg. No weak key lengths for to satisfy local
government politics etc.

Read RFC 1984.  I quote:

: KEYS SHOULD NOT BE REVEALABLE
: 
:    The security of a modern cryptosystem rests entirely on the secrecy
:    of the keys.  Accordingly, it is a major principle of system design
:    that to the extent possible, secret keys should never leave their
:    user's secure environment.  Key escrow implies that keys must be
:    disclosed in some fashion, a flat-out contradiction of this
:    principle.  Any such disclosure weakens the total security of the
:    system.
: 
: DATA RECOVERY
: 
:    Sometimes escrow systems are touted as being good for the customer
:    because they allow data recovery in the case of lost keys. However,
:    it should be up to the customer to decide whether they would prefer
:    the more secure system in which lost keys mean lost data, or one in
:    which keys are escrowed to be recovered when necessary.  Similarly,
:    keys used only for conversations (as opposed to file storage) need
:    never be escrowed.  And a system in which the secret key is stored by
:    a government and not by the data owner is certainly not practical for
:    data recovery.

This quoted point is kind of relevant here:

 "keys used only for conversations (as opposed to file storage) need
  never be escrowed"

Now we move on to your GAK apologist arguments...

> Remember also that it was the Government that was the primary
> subsidizer of said same network and everything that evolved the old
> 56k ARPANET into what the Public Internet is today.

"Government" is composed of public servants.  This citizen-unit
doesn't want to fund spooks to spy on himself.

> The world is changing into a global society and the rules about
> personal freedom are evolving with it... Not everyone is going to
> like them but the facts are what they are and IMHO - personally I
> wonder more how some local constituency would respond to the
> invasion of their personal privacy when some "pervert terrorist"
> parks a recently acquired nuke or Bio-toxic Weapon from the now

Oh give us a break!  You already admitted that terrorists are going to
use whatever crypto they want whether or not governments succeed in
ramming GAK down our throats.

> defunct Russian Arsenal in their backyard and pushes the #$%^&*
> button. If losing absolute anonymity is the cost of better
> safeguarding oneself and family from threats like these, what the
> heck. Its a very small cost to pay.

Perhaps you would think that video cams in all the rooms in your house
(with feeds back to NSA) would be a good idea also,...  well you
install them, at your cost, and leave us out of your eavesdropping
plans, ta very much.

Adam





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Sep  7 16:32:13 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:32:13 +0800
Subject: free anonymous dial up in the UK
In-Reply-To: <001ff2318210798WEB@www.telinco.net>
Message-ID: <199809072328.AAA09363@server.eternity.org>




If any of you are in the UK anytime, you can get free dialup using the
following recently posted details:

> Login = FREE256974
> Password = cypherpunk
> 
> To connect FREE to 33.6Kbps access or 28.8Kbps please use 0845 662 1009
> To connect FREE to K56Flex access please use 0845 662 1109
> To connect FREE to 56K X2 access please use 0845 662 1209
> To connect FREE to 64K ISDN access please use 0845 662 1309

In the UK local calls are not free (about 1p/min offpeak).  The ISP
for the above service (www.aardvaak.co.uk) gets it's income via a
commission on the phone calls to their dialup numbers.

(Most ISPs in the UK charge 10 UKP/month, and you have to pay the
local call on top).

Anyway the interesting part is the degree of anonymity it gives, as
they don't need payment from you, they don't need to know who you are.

Also there is www.freenet.co.uk, they offer pop3 mail accounts, and
usenet access, but if you already have an ISP you probably don't want
all that.

Adam





From Jaggedrock at aol.com  Mon Sep  7 17:02:39 1998
From: Jaggedrock at aol.com (Jaggedrock at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:02:39 +0800
Subject: [MilCom] MRE's, KCMO, VA Hospitals
Message-ID: <1e5a5e2b.35f42dd5@aol.com>



Fellow radio enthusiasts of all the above nets,

In the past week I have learned of MRE stackpiling in a natural limestone cave
in the Kansas City Missouri area.  A 4 month government (don't know the
specific agency) contract it would appear, that will result in excess of
35,000,000 MRE's having been stored in the cave.  That's enough to feed
500,000 for 22 days roughly.  Further, I have learned that, apparently, 23 VA
hospitals that are closed (don't know where and don't know the names) are
being converted into food storage facilities with all of the equipment having
been removed and a special coating being applied to the interior surfaces to
enhance storage life.  Having said that, any fecom, milcom activity that would
shed light on this activity?  Any KCMO monitors hearing anything?  Anyone in
KCMO area that would like to try to find out more and advise the rest of us
accordingly?  

Thanks, jaggedrock at aol.com (Sangean ATS803A, Uniden 100XLT, Uniden Bearcat
895XLT Trunktracker, 48 foot roof mount dipole, roof mount Scantenna 25 feet
aloft, all low loss cable feeds - plus good human eyes and ears).  

---
Submissions milcom at qth.net





From mgering at ecosystems.net  Mon Sep  7 17:03:31 1998
From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:03:31 +0800
Subject: cryptographically secure mailing list software
Message-ID: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A19284612@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>




I've been curious as to whether anyone has developed and/or whether it
is technically feasible to develop a cryptographically secure
listserver.

e.g. 

User would submit their PGP public key to the listserver upon
subscription, submitted messages would be encrypted with the
listserver's public key, the listserver would decrypt the message and
re-encrypt it with the key of all members and distribute it. This way
the users don't need to manage all the keys or even know the list
membership. Most listservers already have the ability to moderate
subscription messages, the list would not be snoopable.

What sort of overhead would exist on a list of a few hundred members?

If there is not something existing that will do this, what is the best
mailing list codebase to start from? Majodomo I imagine might not be up
to the task being written in Perl, LSoft ListSERV I love but it is
commercial (no sourcecode).

	Matt





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 17:13:45 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:13:45 +0800
Subject: cryptographically secure mailing list software (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809080031.TAA06618@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: Matthew James Gering <mgering at ecosystems.net>
> Subject: cryptographically secure mailing list software
> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:59:56 -0700 

> I've been curious as to whether anyone has developed and/or whether it
> is technically feasible to develop a cryptographically secure
> listserver.

> User would submit their PGP public key to the listserver upon
> subscription, submitted messages would be encrypted with the
> listserver's public key,

Actualy to be secure the subscriber would need to use one of the remailers
public key to encrypt their key prior to submission to the remailer. Of
course this doesn't prevent a MIT attack and key substitution. Otherwise
you'd be sending  your key in the clear, generaly a bad thing.

This touches on the main problem with distribution and use of PKE, in that
no secure key management protocal suitable for internet sort of
architectures has ever been developed that doesn't require some trusted 3rd
party or an existing secure channel.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jkthomson at bigfoot.com  Mon Sep  7 17:48:15 1998
From: jkthomson at bigfoot.com (jkthomson)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:48:15 +0800
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <d51409ab.35f45e17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980907174032.006c2e74@dowco.com>



At 06:28 PM 9/7/98 EDT, CRBREW9802 at aol.com wrote:
>how did u do it

i tink i smarter 'dan you, 'dats how.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 james 'keith' thomson <jkthomson at bigfoot.com>  www.bigfoot.com/~ceildh
 jkthomson:C181 991A 405C EAFB 2C46 79B5 B1DC DB78 8196 122D [06.07.98]
 ceildh   :1D79 59AF ED75 5945 6003 8240 DA34 ACCA 9DE4 6BC9 [05.14.98]
 ICQ:746241 <keys> at pgp.mit.edu     ...and former sysop of tnbnog BBS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Knocked; you weren't in.                                  - Opportunity
=======================================================================





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 17:52:02 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:52:02 +0800
Subject: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66...
Message-ID: <199809080109.UAA06813@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Here in Austin we have a local radio dj who does a public access show on
various issue localy and nationaly, Alex Jones, who has put a piece on some
sort of bio-weapon test that occurred in '66 in San Francisco. He is
claiming that deaths resulted.

Anyone have a clue what he's talking about?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ericm at lne.com  Mon Sep  7 17:55:35 1998
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:55:35 +0800
Subject: cryptographically secure mailing list software
In-Reply-To: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A19284612@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>
Message-ID: <199809080053.RAA07220@slack.lne.com>



Matthew James Gering writes:
> 
> 
> I've been curious as to whether anyone has developed and/or whether it
> is technically feasible to develop a cryptographically secure
> listserver.
> 
> e.g. 
> 
> User would submit their PGP public key to the listserver upon
> subscription, submitted messages would be encrypted with the
> listserver's public key, the listserver would decrypt the message and
> re-encrypt it with the key of all members and distribute it. This way
> the users don't need to manage all the keys or even know the list
> membership. Most listservers already have the ability to moderate
> subscription messages, the list would not be snoopable.
> 
> What sort of overhead would exist on a list of a few hundred members?

At ~1sec/ encryption (varies greatly depending on your list hardware, should
be less on a newer PC) adding an extra 200 seconds of CPU time for each 
mail message to the list is probably acceptable.


> If there is not something existing that will do this

Check out PGPdomo.

I found a copy at:
ftp://hawww.ha.osd.mil/pgpdomo/pgpdomo.tar.Z


-- 
Eric Murray          N*Able Technologies                    www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at the sites lne.com or nabletech.com)     PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 18:13:44 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:13:44 +0800
Subject: Emergency G-7 meeting in England on Sat....
Message-ID: <199809080131.UAA06954@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://cnnfn.com/hotstories/economy/9809/07/g7_pkg/

>    Britain calls deputies to London to discuss Russia's economic turmoil

>    Special Report: Eyes on the Market - Sept. 7, 1998
>    
>    International Monetary Fund LONDON (CNNfn) - An emergency meeting of
>    mid-level G-7 officials will take place in London on Saturday to
>    discuss the Russian economic crisis and try to hammer out ways to help
>    countries facing economic meltdown
>    [INLINE] The special meeting of senior finance and foreign-ministry
>    officials from the world's industrialized nations was scheduled after
>    the Duma, Russia's lower house, Monday rejected for a second time the
>    nomination of Victor Chernomyrdin as prime minister, leaving Russia
>    without a government.
>    [INLINE] The G-7 officials are also expected to discuss how to protect
>    their own economies.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From KDAGUIO at aba.com  Mon Sep  7 18:31:26 1998
From: KDAGUIO at aba.com (Kawika Daguio)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:31:26 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism
Message-ID: <s5f44f00.016@aba.com>



Bob,

The syllogism at the end of your post is exactly why I have spent the last more than 5 years negotiating and lobbying and why we (FI's) and you (everyone else) shouldn't worry about the impact of government policy on the security of financial communications.  Market (macro and microeconomics plays a bigger role than the government.

I wouldn't give up my citizenship,  neither would I join those guys at the Fort and give up my rights to move about the world without asking permission to travel or publish.  I like the balance where I am, but respect those who wish to protest peacefully.  

I would prefer that folks kept us out of their fields of fire in the various skirmishes occuring during the cryptocrusades and left us to manage the policy for and the security of our space for ourselves and our customers.  

just my personal views...kawika...

<<< Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>  9/ 7  5:29p >>>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


At 3:38 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Robert Hettinga wrote about Ryan Lackey's
whereabouts, on cypherpunks:

> If I told you, I would have to kill you?

Whew. Glad Ryan has now said something publically now about his and Ian's bit
of extraterritorial subtrifuge (though Ian  doesn't qualify, of course). I
mean, I just *hate* keeping secrets... ;-).

Frankly, I *really* have a hard time with all this
man-without-a-first-world-country, crypto-expat stuff. I think making the
technology not eonomically optional is the way to change things, and no
amount of romantic, jurisdiction-shopping "regulatory arbitrage" is going
to alter reality all that much.

But, I guess, Anguilla's as nice a place to have this affliction as any I can
think of.

And, I wish Vince -- and now, apparently, Ryan -- good luck, whatever happens.


Yet, for some reason, memories of Vietnam-era draft-dodgers keep coming to
mind. For what it cost them all personally, not much good came of it, I'd say,
for them or anyone else. The people who protested the war and "fought the good
fight" to end it stayed here to do it, after all. The most potent anti-war
activists were Vietnam vets themselves, for that matter. And, of course,
Ridgeway told Eisenhower at the outset that Vietnam was a multi-million-man
war, and Eisenhower stayed out accordingly, throwing a few marginal people on
the ground to shut Lodge up. It took Testosterone Jack to get a Special-Forces
hard-on. Eventually he and Desktop Lyndon ended up screwing a pooch
instead of the commies.


Do people out there really think somebody like Gore's going to do a
crypto-amnesty someday? I didn't think so. Ashcroft, maybe, but don't hold
your breath, there, either. It'll be decades, I bet, and our "boys over
there" will have grey hair long before they do come back home on this one.
Political inertia is probably going to keep a few people we know outside
the fence, looking in, for an awful long time after the issue's utterly
dead.

I expect people who do this crypto-expat stuff are going to get their
new passports refused at the U.S. border when they visit, and I think that
things are going to get worse for them for a long time before they get better.
Of course, there's a fair argument to be made that if they do get refused,
it's probably time to leave, anyway, but I'll let someone else gnaw that bone.

And, frankly, I *do* expect that the FBI will attempt domestic crypto
controls, just like they've been been trying to do for some time now. But,
unlike a lot of people, I think that the marketplace will steamroller all
such silliness into yet another roadtop attraction, before or after its
legislation.

Anyway, as the old "excrable" e$yllogism goes,

Digital commerce is financial cryptography.
Financial cryptography is strong cryptography.
Therefore, if there's no strong cryptography, there's no digital commerce.


So, call me an optimist.

Like I've said before, I've heard the end of life and liberty as we know it
predicted over and over again -- hell, I've even believed so myself, once or
twice -- but, like the Gibbon quote in my .sig goes, "however it may deserve
respect for its usefulness and antiquity", I ain't seen it happen yet.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5

iQEVAwUBNfRQJMUCGwxmWcHhAQHb7gf ImnoGG28coDgde4cDgnwHyQatO78nY4B
9bMfB9bE1FCqAIZNKfrPzqhJpZzCbYEDYQexXe8bRsl32M7FnIye7w4r7kxeXxns
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vtpnZiRsOeSXt0sWmlXHiZ DeB 79z1z157cg/AOn/qAGBLBgZuDp dbRH7B4ynR
ngB6XS irSzNnMWQrVdNYPuRPRRQ h/eV US2Cmjc3uuFcnR/ tnNg==
=0UKh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".





From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep  7 18:51:12 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:51:12 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v0401170db219f0b9c52c@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v04011711b21a29761c02@[139.167.130.246]>



Time for a little air clearing, here...


At 6:22 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Ryan Lackey wrote:


> (Note: my original message was posted to Cypherpunks, which I consider
> to be substantially different than DBS: had I been posting to DBS, I would
> have included different details...list differentiation is kin of useful,
> it's why the different lists were created in the first place)

Perils of the internet, Ryan, everything is everywhere forever. :-).

That's okay, you didn't sound that much different than you do anywhere
else. That was not perjorative, by the way...


> I never said this.  If you'd like to fabricate/summarize/editorialize,
> please make it clear that that's what you're doing, by using the
>traditionally
> accepted editorial convention of square brackets, or some other convention.
> I prefer Chicago Manual of Style, but I'm sure the AP Stylebook is
>acceptable.

Actually, I was quoting *myself*, talking about something you discussed
later, and which crossed paths with the post in question. It might help to
go back and reread the original, in the thread about the cypherpunk
hyperarchive, but, you're excused in the meantime. :-).


> Ian Goldberg isn't involved -- he's working on Zero Knowledge Systems,
> AFAIK, and I wish him luck, but I haven't really spoken to him in months.
>He's
> a Canadian, anyway.

I wasn't talking about *that* Ian. :-). As it is, Ian Grigg has outed
himself on another list already, but he's not the one making expatriate
noise, seeing as he's Australian, and all...

> I haven't mentioned working with anyone else anywhere,
> other than that I'm working for "interesting" clients.  If you know
>otherwise,
> it isn't particularly public knowledge at this point.

Um, yes. And I haven't said anything besides what's publically known.
Certainly *who* you're working for hasn't been revealed yet, and I haven't
done that. Even as much as I hate secrets. :-).


> I'm not breaking US law.  I'm a US citizen.  I pay my taxes, respect US
> law, etc.  It's just that I'm choosing to work on something somewhere other
> than the US, for a variety of reasons.

That's nice to know. Good to hear. See ya when you get back. At least you
haven't made that trip to Antigua or Barbados, or wherever, yet. That, in
my opinion, would be rather silly.

> > And, I wish Vince -- and now, apparently, Ryan -- good luck, whatever
>happens.
>
> Vince formally renounced his citizenship, becoming a citizen of a small
> african country, and intends to remain in Anguilla.  I left the US
> for a while to work on stuff, and to get away from a major US city for
> a while.  I think there's a huge difference here.

Again, marvellous.

> What I have
> done is fundamentally no different than going to Montana to write code
> for a while, other than that it was cheaper and more convenient for me to
> come to Anguilla.

Splendid. At the moment, I'd just barely prefer Anguilla to the North Fork
of the Flathead River myself, but my opinion on the subject is changing...

> (Of course, Vince seems to be doing quite well...)  I just happen to not want
> to go back to the US right now, it's not that I can't if I decide I want
> to at some point.

Again, marvellous. I would just be careful you don't fall in with the wrong
element while you're down there in the World's Best Place for Financial
Cryptography (tm). ;-).

> (who generally does not provide confidential information to people
> who do not like keeping secrets, out of kindness for them)

And, I might add, *you* didn't. :-).

Any information I've revealed on this is public. However, I'm in an
agressively public business, these days, yes? You don't put "Evangelism" in
your business name and expect to hide your light under a bushel basket...

Frankly, I'm only *really* obligated to keep secrets I'm paid to keep,
anymore. Word to the wise, for anyone else out there who wants call me up
and spill the beans. Past obligations will still be honored, of course, but
the rent's gotta be paid, same as it ever was. This includes "keep this
quiet, but..." in email, encrypted or otherwise, followed by This Week's
Business Plan. Frankly, I don't want to hear that stuff anymore unless
there's some remuneration behind it. Game over.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep  7 18:52:35 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:52:35 +0800
Subject: IP: Wired: "The Y2K Solution: Run for Your Life!!"
Message-ID: <v04011714b21a3aa726a2@[139.167.130.246]>




--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com
X-Sender: believer at telepath.com
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:38:07 -0500
To: believer at telepath.com
From: believer at telepath.com
Subject: IP: Wired: "The Y2K Solution: Run for Your Life!!"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com
Precedence: list
Reply-To: believer at telepath.com

Source:  Wired
http://www.wired.com/wired/6.08/y2k.html

F E A T U R E|Issue 6.08 - August 1998

The Y2K Solution: Run for Your Life!!
 By Kevin Poulsen

 Scott Olmsted is dressed to do some serious debugging: comfortable khaki
shorts, a T-shirt from a Visual Basic conference, and a visor from one of
his Silicon Valley employers. But we're a long way from the land of
cubicles and industrial parks. In fact, we're a long way from just about
everything.

 Scott is debugging with a hammer, trying to remove a stubborn two-by-four
from the wall of a mobile home plunked down in the high desert of Southern
California. After banging away for a few minutes, he finally yanks the stud
off the wall in a flurry of sawdust and splintered wood. It's a small
victory, but it brings him one step closer to his own solution to the
greatest computer glitch in history - the Year 2000 Bug. With more than 20
years of computer programming experience under his belt, Scott has decided
that the only real fix for the Y2K problem may be to pack up and move to
this patch of land 75 miles from his San Diego home. "In the next year or
so," he predicts, "the most common cocktail party chatter will be, 'What
are you doing to prepare for Y2K?' But by then, it will be too late."

 This is sagebrush country, the kind of place where you can hear your
footsteps crunching in the gravel. But even here, 30 miles from the nearest
interstate, a line of telephone poles runs along the dirt road and PacBell
terminal boxes sprout from the ground alongside the cacti. While carpet
installers work in the next room, Scott is planning for the day when it may
all be useless. The property came with a freshwater well, and he'll soon
have a solar panel for power. For protection against looters, he's about to
purchase his first gun. "I've seen how fragile so many software systems are
- how one bug can bring them down," he worries. The idea of hundreds,
thousands, millions of bugs cascading all at once keeps him awake at night.

 His Y2K retreat is easy to spot. In an area where high security means a
few strands of barbed wire clinging to a rusty pole, Scott's chain-link
fence is shiny and new. The alarm-company sign that hangs from the fence
would be more at home in Brentwood, and on the roof there's a DirecTV
satellite dish pointed toward the sky. The shed outside his back door will
hold nonperishable food. But with a programmer's methodical logic, Scott
didn't rush out to buy a year's worth of dehydrated grub. First he sampled
the fare from several distributors. One company sold a textured vegetable
protein that was a bit more expensive, but it came in a variety of flavors:
chicken, beef, and taco. "It was pretty good," Scott says, in the halting
measured tones of someone who doesn't want come across as a wacko. "We were
pleasantly surprised." So he splurged. What the hell, doomsday comes along
only once in a lifetime.

 Throughout history, prophets and visionaries have spent their lives
preparing for the end of the world. But this time veteran software
programmers are blazing the millennial trail. The geeks have read the
future, not in the Book of Revelation, but in a few million lines of
computer code.

 By now, the source of their anxiety is well known. In the 1950s and 1960s,
when the computer world was young and memory was expensive, programmers
developed a convention for marking the passage of time. It's the same
system most people use to date their checks: two digits for the day, two
for the month, and two for the year. Dropping the "19" from the year was
convenient, and it saved two bytes of precious RAM every time it was used.

 Those were days of innocence and optimism. Everyone knew what would happen
if this little shortcut was still in use in AD 2000 - the two-digit year
would roll over like the odometer on an old Chevy, and the computers would
think they'd jumped 100 years into the past. Programmers knew it, and they
warned their managers. Not to worry, was the usual reply. When the
millennium finally rolls around, all this code will be ancient history.

 But the code stuck around. The old software worked fine in the
postmainframe world, so nobody felt compelled to replace it. Instead, like
Roman architects, they just built on top of it. The two-digit year became a
standard, wired right into the heart of Cobol - the Common Business
Oriented Language that still serves as the digital workhorse of commerce
and industry. It also crept into the embedded microchips found in
everything from VCRs to nuclear power plants. For years the Y2K bug sat
quietly, remembered largely as an amusing textbook example of poor software
design.

 But as 2000 drew near, the screwup became less amusing. In November 1996,
the comp.software.year-2000 newsgroup was launched, creating a forum that
would soon become ground zero for the Y2K survivalist movement. But at
first, the charter was clear: Discussions would be limited to Y2K bug
fixes, remediation strategies, and reports.

 Over the course of the next year, information poured into the newsgroup,
and most of it was bad: The FAA was hopelessly behind schedule in patching
air-traffic-control systems; Edward Yardeni, chief economist for Deutsche
Morgan Grenfell Bank, laid odds that Y2K upheaval would trigger a
recession; Ed Yourdon, a respected software guru and author of 25 computer
books, predicted the collapse of the US government - not long after he
packed up and moved to New Mexico.

 Optimism became a scarce commodity. Philosophical questions were raised:
Do programmers have a moral duty to remain at their keyboards until the
last moments of 1999, like captains on a sinking ship? Debates raged over
social Darwinism and the ownership of wheat in grain elevators. The
conversation moved on to the viability of dry dog food as emergency
rations. Plans were made to begin converting equities into gold and buying
land in remote parts of California, Arizona, and Oklahoma. January 1998 saw
250 cross-posts to misc.survivalism - up from an average of 30 a month in
late 1997. Gradually, a new acronym entered the Internet lexicon:
TEOTWAWKI, pronounced "tee-OH-tawa-kee." The End of the World as We Know
It. The
 Internet's very own survival movement was born.

 Scott Olmsted has known about the Y2K bug since the 1980s, but he never
gave it much thought until early 1997, when he received a snail-mail flyer
from Gary North, a historian and early leader in the Y2K preparedness
movement. After reading it, Scott remembers feeling a vague sense of dread.
But as a rational guy and student of decision analysis - the science of
logical decision making in the face of chronic uncertainty - he didn't jump
to any conclusions. Instead, he went online to do some research. As he
pored over Web sites and news clippings, Scott felt himself moving through
the same psychological stages endured by people confronted with fatal
illness: denial, fading into anger, leading to a deep depression that
culminates in a sense of acceptance. "I'm still not 100 percent sure that
the world's coming to an end," he admits. "But the idea that I may want to
get out of town for a while is not such a long shot. It's enough to make me
want to prepare."

 With the exception of his wife, most of the non-geeks closest to Scott
think he's a little nuts. His half-brother, Clark Freeman, thought he was
going overboard. But since then, Clark has come around a bit - he, too, is
planning to stockpile some food in case things get rough.

 If his brother is taking Y2K so seriously, he figures there might well be
something to it. "Scott has always been the level-headed one," Clark
remembers. "The classic straightlaced nerd."

 "I've spoken with friends and relatives about this, and I've gotten
nowhere," Scott sighs. Worse, some of the more intense Y2K survivalists
also think he's crazy - or at least a bit na�ve. After all, Scott plans to
celebrate New Year's Eve at his home in the suburbs; the place in the
desert will be there just in case things get rough. Then there's his fence
- it has no perimeter alarms, and he isn't even trying to camouflage his
location. But worst of all, his hideaway is only a half tank of gas away
from Los Angeles - close enough to the big city that he could wake up one
postapocalyptic morning to find hordes of Los Angelinos parked outside his
desert redoubt.

 The hardcores believe it will happen like this: On January 1 (or shortly
thereafter), the electricity grid will go dead. Groceries in America's
refrigerators will go bad. Food distribution systems will crash and store
shelves will go bare within days. Businesses will fail, either because they
aren't Y2K compliant or because they are dependent on noncompliant
customers and suppliers. As losses mount and companies go under, the stock
market will plummet. Banks will calculate interest for negative 100 years.
The government will stop issuing entitlement checks to gray-haired senior
citizens when their age suddenly clicks back to -35. Panic will set in.
Police dispatch systems will be crippled, and the only law will be the law
of the jungle. Desperate citizens will abandon the cities to hunt for
resources in rural areas. They'll come looking for the mad prophets - the
Y2K survivalists - ready to plunder their food, their heat, and their
communications links. They'll zero in on Scott and his conspicuous retreat
like a pack of wolves on the scent of a kill.

 But they'd better stay away from Steve Watson's place.

 Steve Watson, a 45-year-old systems analyst, is still kicking himself for
not preparing sooner. He didn't get going until early this year, and he
worries that he still has a lot of adjusting to do. As he puts it, "I
didn't even know how to tan a hide until a couple of months ago."

 If all goes according to plan, Steve will ring in the new year at a secure
compound somewhere in southern Oklahoma. While the Pollyannas of the world
watch Times Square on the tube, he'll be listening to the radio for early
news of Y2K disaster. When the power goes black - perhaps at the stroke of
midnight - he'll be ready with a small arsenal of guns. A generator will
power his bunker indefinitely, but no light will escape to the outside -
none of Steve's neighbors will even know that there is a survivalist in
their midst.

 Eight months ago, if you'd told Steve that Y2K survivalism would become
his obsession, he would have laughed in your face. Last year, he was a
happy-go-lucky Y2K project analysis manager for DMR Consulting, a
Canada-based computer consulting firm, just finishing up a big remediation
project for a major American phone company. The effort was grueling - 10
writers, programmers, and analysts cleaning up 10 million of lines of Cobol
code. But in the end it all worked out, and the phone company's billing
system was declared ready for 2000.

 In that heady moment of self-congratulation, Bill Finch, one of Steve's
coworkers, approached him with a thought. "Steve," he said, "don't you
realize that everything stops if the power grid goes down?"

 Anxiety set in. The telephone company had poured substantial resources
into its Y2K effort. Even then, Steve's project had been an odyssey plagued
with countless unexpected glitches and snags. If the power utilities - with
their Byzantine grid of thousands of generators and substations around the
continent - weren't already well along in their efforts, then all the
systems he'd dragged into Y2K compliance would be dead as doornails when
the lights went out.

 That afternoon, Steve hit the Net, where he learned that the situation is
far worse than he had imagined. The power grid relies on a sophisticated
feedback mechanism: Remote terminal units report their power needs up the
communications chain that controls the output of electricity generators.
The entire network is riddled with embedded chips. Nuclear plants supply
nearly 20 percent of the power in the grid, and none of them have been
certified as Y2K compliant. Charles Siebenthal, head of the Year 2000
embedded systems project at the Electric Power Research Institute, says the
industry is just beginning to look for potential Y2K failure points.
Anecdotes from industry consultants suggest that if the year 2000 came
today, every utility in the country would crash. "No electric plant or
facility of any kind has been Y2K tested without some kind of impact," says
David Hall, a senior consultant with the Cara Corporation. "There isn't
enough time to fix everything. There will be some disruption. How long? How
deep? We just don't know."

 Then there are ripple effects to consider. "There's not a single railroad
switch in the country that's manual anymore," Steve says. "They're all
computer controlled, and railroads deliver coal and fuel to power plants."

 Exit Steve Watson, bright-eyed optimist; enter the new Steve Watson, Y2K
survivalist, rugged pioneer, and Renaissance man in training. Steve began
spending six hours a day on the Internet, studying alternative power,
construction techniques, and emergency medical procedures. Anything he
couldn't find online, he ordered from local bookstores or Amazon.com. He'd
never kept a gun in the house, but soon he had three: a 30-30 for deer
hunting, a .22 for small game, and a 9-mm handgun for personal protection.
Of course, the 9-mm is practically a popgun against looting mobs, so four
M-16 assault rifles are also on the way.

 Finally, he pooled his money with Bill Finch, his DMR coworker, to buy 500
remote acres in Oklahoma. (Bill holds the public deed to the property, so
his name has been changed in this article to keep the location secret.) In
choosing the hideaway site and its size, Steve overengineered to account
for family and friends - few of whom subscribe to his Y2K scenario. "Most
people think I'm nuts. Even my kids think, Dad's going off the deep end."
Steve's wife, Teresa, has been more supportive. She's no computer expert,
but her Baptist faith tells her that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
could ride in with a global computer crash. Meanwhile, Steve is making
plans for everyone else: close friends, family members, sisters-in-law,
brothers-in-law - and their children, mothers, and fathers. Forty people in
all. In 2000, they'll work together to till the soil and patrol the fence
line.

 Steve's doomsday vision is the same as that of most Y2K radicals, but
radicals can pop up in some pretty mainstream places - like the US Central
Intelligence Agency, which is advising its agents abroad to keep cash on
hand and stockpile extra blankets in preparation for New Year's Day 2000.
The agency worries that bugs in the power networks and communications
backbones of developing nations could cause outages that would jeopardize
the safety and well-being of its agents.

 Millions of Americans have already gotten a small taste of critical system
failure. When the onboard control system of the Galaxy IV communications
satellite failed on Tuesday, May 19, 1998, the outage temporarily crippled
US pager networks, several broadcast news operations, and even credit card
verifications systems. Most of the disruptions were brief - technicians
were able to switch to backup communications paths - but doctors who use
pagers as a lifeline with patients and colleagues were forced to set up
camp in hospitals and offices. The failure of one satellite threw a wrench
into the mechanisms of modern life, perhaps providing a peek at what life
may be like at the dawn of the new millennium.

 Or sooner. While the full brunt of the Y2K bug is reserved for AD 2000,
some early problems are already developing. In 1996, Visa and MasterCard
temporarily stopped issuing credit cards with an expiration date of 2000
after credit card verification terminals began choking on the "00." The
gaffe led to customer complaints and a lawsuit filed by a suburban Detroit
grocery store against its computer supplier, TEC America Inc. Since then,
most verification systems have been upgraded, but Y2K is making its
presence known in other areas. The Information Technology Association of
America released a survey last March showing 44 percent of the US companies
they polled have already experienced Y2K failures. Ninety-four percent of
the respondents termed Y2K a "crisis."

 The GartnerGroup estimates that 180 billion lines of code need to be
examined and that 20 to 30 percent of all firms worldwide have not yet
started preparing for Y2K. Many of these are expected to suffer significant
failures. In a series of studies issued over the last year, Gartner
surveyed 15,000 companies in 87 countries to assess their Y2K readiness.
The results weren't encouraging. Small companies rated lowest - for most,
winning over new customers has taken priority over the Y2K problem. But
midsize and large companies are lagging, too. Gartner then rated the
overall Y2K efforts of industrialized nations on a scale of zero to five,
where five is total compliance on all systems. The highest scorers on the
scale, including the US, Canada, and Australia, rated somewhere between two
and three - a score that suggests they have completed an inventory of Y2K
vulnerabilities, but not yet developed a comprehensive remediation plan.

 The US may be at the front of the pack in the Y2K race, but that's small
comfort to some legislators. Last March, the House Subcommittee on
Government Management, Information, and Technology warned that 37 percent
of the critical systems used by federal agencies will not be ready in time.
Then in June, California Republican Stephen Horn, who heads the
subcommittee, issued a scathing report card on the Clinton administration's
Y2K progress. He gave the government an F.

 John Koskinen, head of the president's Year 2000 Conversion Council,
complains that Horn is just a tough grader. "As a government, we're in a C+
to B range," he argues. Koskinen keeps a digital desktop clock that runs
backward - on the day we spoke, the clock showed 609 days, 8 hours, 39
minutes, 16 seconds, and counting - but he generally refrains from calling
the situation a crisis. Instead, he describes it as a "critical management
challenge."

 He fully expects the federal government's critical systems to be ready on
time, or even early. "Many companies, financial institutions, and federal
agencies are still working on the problem," he says. "But most major
organizations plan to have their solutions in place by the first quarter of
next year."

 If the council is successful, Koskinen believes, Americans will confront
little more than a few minor inconveniences when the year 2000 finally
rolls around. "There's not enough information right now to indicate that
stocking up on Coleman stoves and Sterno is an appropriate response," he
says. And in the end, he predicts, "a lot of people won't notice."

 Koskinen has earned the respect of some Y2Kers by emphasizing the need for
high-level planning in the event that some systems fail. But Y2K
survivalists feel more comfortable with their own personal contingency
plans, and a commercial infrastructure is already forming to support them.
Walton Feed, an Idaho food distributor that sells products over the Net, is
doing a brisk business in long-term supplies; the company attributes this
to Y2K. And in Sully County, South Dakota, developer Russ Voorhees has
attracted national publicity and hundreds of potential clients for his
"Heritage Farms 2000" project - a Y2K survival community that's been on
hold since June, when a local planning commission refused to grant the
necessary building permits. For those who want to go it alone, there's a
sense of adventurous fun in their preparations - the pride of
self-sufficiency and an excuse to get away from the keyboard to earn some
merit badges. But Y2K preparedness is not just a Boy Scout fetish, and it
isn't always about getting away from it all.

 "If everybody moves to rural areas, they'll just take their problems with
them," explains Paloma O'Riley, a red-haired, forty-something mother, wife,
and computer expert. Paloma lives in the small town of Louisville,
Colorado, just east of Boulder, and when she looks around her community she
doesn't see potential looters - she sees neighbors. Her suburban hamlet has
become a major landmark on the Y2K map as the world headquarters of The
Cassandra Project, a grassroots Y2K preparedness organization that can
perhaps best be described as a kind of Millennial Neighborhood Watch.

 Until last year, Paloma was a Y2K project manager at the Rover Group, a
UK-based auto manufacturer, where her first responsibility was to identify
all of the company's vulnerable systems and target them for patching. But
her search didn't end with a couple of corporate mainframes. Inadvertently,
Paloma opened up the Pandora's Box of Y2K: embedded systems.

 Embedded systems draw the Y2K bug-fixing task out of cyberspace and into
the real world. There are lots of pea-brained microchips out there, nestled
in everything from microwave ovens and automobiles, to power plants and oil
refineries. Most don't care what the date is, but a small percentage of
them do, and that made Paloma nervous. "I became concerned about just how
prevalent embedded systems are," she recalls. "Several members of my family
have medical problems, so when I started investigating I became very
concerned about medical devices like defibrillators, physiological
monitoring equipment, and the entire medical services infrastructure."

 When her contract came up for renewal in 1997, Rover asked Paloma to stay
on in London to 2000. She declined - the thought of family and friends
surrounded by noncompliant systems that might leave them cold, hungry, and
without medical services was too much to ignore. Back in the States she
began networking with other people who shared her concerns, and that's when
she realized "we needed to put together an organization to address the
issues and get information out to the public."

 Thus The Cassandra Project was born. In Greek mythology, Cassandra was a
mortal woman courted by the god Apollo. To win her affections, Apollo gave
her the gift of prophecy. Still, Cassandra rejected him, so the frustrated
deity decreed that no one would ever believe her predictions. Paloma
O'Riley gave a nod to Cassandra's fate when she chose the name for her Y2K
preparedness group, but she is precisely the kind of mortal woman you'd
want at your next PTA meeting - a firm believer in the notion that some
good, old-fashioned community-building may keep the Y2K nightmare at bay.

 The Cassandra Project has helped spawn a dozen Y2K community preparedness
groups around the country. It has a board of directors that includes
several computer professionals and a Web site at millennia-bcs.com that
lists a menu of articles discussing possible Y2K scenarios, ranging from
minor annoyances to outright Y2Kaos. The site attracts more than 100,000
visitors a month.

 Between speaking engagements, Paloma spends her days organizing biweekly
meetings with neighbors to discuss contingency plans, and lobbying the
state government. "We've been working with the Cassandra group on a lot of
their initiatives," says Steve McNally, staff director of the Colorado
Information Management Commission. "They've talked to several legislators
and the governor's office and brought some awareness of the issues to the
table."

 For her part, Paloma and her family plan to stockpile a six-month supply
of food. Her worst-case scenarios look much the same as those of the most
hardcore, self-sufficient Y2K survivalists, but the bomb-shelter aspect is
conspicuously missing. Paloma believes that people will pull together in
times of turmoil. If calamity strikes and she is forced to draw the line,
she's determined to do so in her own backyard.

 Even if Paloma's neighborly pragmatism sets her apart from the militia
types and fundamentalist Christians who regularly contact The Cassandra
Project, her efforts have brought her in contact with a thriving
premillennial subculture. "People in other millennial movements, including
Christian fundamentalism, point to Y2K as a sign of the times," says Philip
Lamy, a professor of sociology and anthropology at Castleton College in
Vermont. Lamy specializes in the study of secular millennialism, and he
sees Y2K survivalism as a prime example of the genre. "Generally,
millennial movements appear when a society or culture is going through a
period of rapid cultural, economic, or technological change," he says. "The
explosion of the Internet and the World Wide Web is fueling a lot of this
now."

 Still, there are a few things that set the Y2Kers apart from the crowd.
For one, the Y2K bug is not simply a matter of myth, superstition, or
prophesy - it is a tangible problem hardwired into the fabric of our
industrial society. In addition, the people who are taking Y2K most
seriously are not laypeople or neophytes - they are specialized technicians
who approach the situation with a sophisticated understanding of society's
hidden machinery. But if heightened technical awareness alone could explain
the apocalyptic conclusions drawn by the Y2K survivalists, then every
well-informed computer geek would be moving to the desert - and that
clearly isn't happening. With so many intertwined variables to consider,
logic inevitably takes a back seat to subjective intuition - a personal
sense of security that extends from the microcosm of a single computer
program to the macrocosm of modern society. Ultimately it all comes down to
faith.

 But this, too, sets the Y2K survivalists apart. True millennialism is
rooted in faith - fundamentalist Christians may anticipate an apocalypse,
but they optimistically expect it to be followed by 1,000 years of
celestial rule. Y2K survivalism, on the other hand, doesn't concern itself
with redemption. It is antimillennial - the polar opposite of
techno-millennial movements like the Extropians who see technology as the
stairway to a higher plane. (See "Meet the Extropians," Wired 2.10, page
102.)

 "All this suggests that you don't have to be a religious fanatic, a
Christian fundamentalist, or a ufologist to believe that our world may be
in trouble - that there's something serious afoot in our nation and our
world," Lamy adds. "The Y2K problem is overlapping with other survivalist
movements, and like them it shares a kind of a fatalistic vision of the
future."

 Three weeks have passed since Scott Olmsted put the carpet installers to
work in his retreat. The carpet is in now, and he's turned his attention to
other details, like night-vision equipment - his property is on high
ground, and with the right hardware he could scan most of the valley from
his backyard. He's also thinking of getting laser eye surgery so that he
won't be dependent on contact lenses after 2000. It never seems to end.
"Once you take the first steps to prepare, you basically admit that this is
big enough to do something about. And then you realize you should be doing
more."

 Scott has turned his back on denial - the blind faith that allows people
to live normal lives in the face of staggering complexity, risk, and
uncertainty. Instead, he's chosen to acknowledge his own vulnerability. As
he describes it, "I've always known that the economy is complex and that we
live on the end of a long chain of ships, planes, and 18-wheelers." Scott
sees how the Y2K bug could disrupt that chain, and like other resolute
souls - environmental activists, antiabortion protesters, and corporate
whistle-blowers to name a few - he, too, has been driven to act by the
clarity and intensity of his vision. The rest of us may be content without
quite so much awareness, but embracing the Bug has actually made Scott feel
better. "I know one guy who started taking Prozac when his denial fell
away," he says. "Taking action - doing something - really gets you out of
that."

 Scott admits there isn't enough evidence to prove he's right. But, he
insists, that's not the way to look at it. "There's not nearly enough
evidence pointing the other way to make me abandon my preparations," he
says. In a way, he's managed to optimize the Y2K problem - even if the new
millennium dawns without incident, his efforts will have yielded a supply
of inexpensive food, a new collection of practical skills, and a nice
vacation home in the country. It's an eminently logical win-win, and Scott
has taken comfort in that. "I'm not waiting until the ground is shaking to
prepare for the Y2K earthquake," he muses. "I'm going to be ready for an
8.5. I may look foolish if it turns out to be minor, but that's OK. That's
the nature of decisionmaking under uncertainty."

 Kevin Poulsen is a columnist for ZDTV.com .

 America Offline

 ( Inside the Great Blackout of '00 )

 "Most of the nation's power systems must be compliant, or they all go
down, region by region, in one gigantic, rolling blackout," warns Gary
North, keeper of the oldest, most notorious Y2K doomsday site on the Web.
If the lights go out at the dawn of the 21st century, North believes the
failure will be permanent, because the computers that control the grid will
be unfixable if there isn't power to run them. Thereafter, he argues, the
blackout will trigger the collapse of civilization.

 The North American grid is vulnerable to simultaneous failures. Generating
facilities in the US, Canada, and Mexico jointly move power through
high-tension lines that distribute electricity through four regional
interconnections. Within each region, if one facility goes offline, the
others compensate to pick up the slack. But there's not much spare capacity
built into the system; the North American Electric Reliability Council, a
group that is drawing up a timetable of Y2K fixes for the Department of
Energy, admits that if multiple generating facilities fail in one region,
this "may result in stressing the electric system to the point of a
cascading outage over a large area."

 This is how it could happen: A power station is equipped with safety
systems that deactivate steam boilers if they aren't maintained frequently.
Suppose maintenance was last performed in 1999, which an embedded chip
recorded as "99." Now it's the year 2000, so the chip subtracts the old
year, 99, from the new year, 00, and finds, amazingly, that maintenance was
last performed -99 years ago. Clearly this is an error, so the chip shuts
down all the boilers, just to be safe.

 Meanwhile, at another power station, a temperature sensor attached to a
transformer averages its readings over time. On January 1, 2000, the sensor
divides temperature by the year - which is expressed as "00" - and comes up
with an infinite value, triggering another shutdown signal. If small faults
like these knock out a half dozen facilities, the rest will go offline to
protect generators from burning out in a hopeless effort to meet the
growing demand.

 The distribution grid also has weak points. "We have at least 800
different types of embedded controls on the wires," explains Gary Steeves,
director of a Y2K project at TransAlta Utilities, the largest
investor-owned power company in Canada. "Some of the protective devices log
dates of faults in activity and can automatically take a component out of
service." If the same controller has been installed in thousands of remote
locations, and the chips share the same Y2K bug, they'll all fail
simultaneously.

 Most US power utilities refuse to comment on the likelihood of these
disasters, fearing litigation if they offer reassurances that turn out to
be wrong.

 Tim Wilson, publisher of Y2k News, worries about the nearly 9,000 small
regional companies that pull power off the grid at the local level.
"They're clueless as to what to do about Y2K," says Wilson. "They know they
have embedded chips, but they don't know where they are. If there's a power
shortage, rural areas may not be allowed to take power off the grid,
because cities could have a higher priority."

 This suggests an ironic scenario: Remote areas may remain dark for weeks
or months after January 1, 2000, leaving Y2K survivalists waiting in their
isolated cabins for the lights to come back on - while complacent urban
dwellers enjoy uninterrupted service.

 - Charles Platt

Copyright � 1993-98 The Cond� Nast Publications Inc. All rights reserved.
Compilation Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. All rights reserved.
-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------




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--- end forwarded text


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep  7 19:02:59 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:02:59 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809072208.RAA05578@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v04011715b21a3e440014@[139.167.130.246]>



At 6:08 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Jim Choate wrote:


> > Ridgeway told Eisenhower at the outset that Vietnam was a multi-million-man
> > war, and Eisenhower stayed out accordingly, throwing a few marginal
>people on
> > the ground to shut Lodge up. It took Testosterone Jack to get a
>Special-Forces
> > hard-on. Eventually he and Desktop Lyndon ended up screwing a pooch
> > instead of the commies.
>
> Balonely, do your research somewhere beside a bar. JFK had no intention of
> sending more troops in and every intention of withdrawing the troops that
> were there. There are two sources you can look at to verify this. The first
> is the troop count over time and the internal presidential memos to the
> Chiefs of Staff. Had JFK not been shot there would have been NO US troops in
> Vietnam by the end of '64.
>
> LBJ is the nit-wit who crewed the proverbial pooch.

I've got an idea. Go read Halverstam's "The Best and the Brightest", Jim,
and then tell me what bar I did my research in.

Cheers :-),
Bob Hettinga
-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From pooppido at fffff.net  Tue Sep  8 10:14:21 1998
From: pooppido at fffff.net (pooppido at fffff.net)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:14:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Info.
Message-ID: <199809081714.KAA13329@toad.com>



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From ryan at systemics.ai  Mon Sep  7 19:23:10 1998
From: ryan at systemics.ai (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:23:10 +0800
Subject: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <s5f44f00.019@aba.com>
Message-ID: <E0zGDMC-00015h-00@arianrhod.systemics.ai>



(note trimmed distribution ... cryptography certainly isn't appropriate
for any of this, and I doubt if dcsb is...)

Kawika Daguio said:
> I would prefer that folks kept us out of their fields of fire in the various > skirmishes occuring during the cryptocrusades and left us to manage the 
> policy for and the security of our space for ourselves and our customers.  

Banks and other financial intermediaries do not exist in a vacuum.  While
I agree that the banking/financial applications do drive the policy in
this field (I believe both you and Bob believe this), I do not agree that
the existing banks and financial intermediaries drive the policy.
Fundamentally, there are some changes which make old institutions irrelevant,
even if their functions are taken over by new institutions.  For a long time,
the Church handled intermediation between military powers.  Now, it's the UN.
Perhaps tomorrow, it will be the mutual fund managers, transnationals,
and news agencies.  

We all seem to agree that the government is irrelevant in the grand
scheme of things.

While I may be presuming incorrectly, I feel that the
ABA represents the accidental existing institutions, not the essence of 
financial institutions.  Thus, when you say you have spent 5 years
negotiating and lobbying, I presume you are doing so to allow the
existing institutions to fit into the new future.  You are not necessarily
helping the new future come into being in the essential sense by helping
existing institutions come to grips with essential reality.

I would argue that the reality of electronic commerce/cryptography, and
its effect upon the power relationship of individual vs. group, needs
no apologists, and indeed, no apologist can help it.  It is a fundamentally
new reality.







From declan at well.com  Mon Sep  7 19:25:39 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:25:39 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907143754.17348A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907192144.21371F-100000@well.com>



I've been politely corrected in email. I meant "allusion" of course. I
seem to find myself doing this more often lately... --Declan

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> We even make an illusion to Monica's Cigar in a story in this week's Time.
> A Microsoft story I was working on died at the last moment, unfortunately.





From hedges at infonex.com  Mon Sep  7 19:32:37 1998
From: hedges at infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:32:37 +0800
Subject: crossposting
In-Reply-To: <s5f44f00.016@aba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980907192817.470B-100000@cyberpass.net>




Ya know, I sometimes cross-post across lists when I shouldn't, so I'm
guilty of that too, but now that I'm on so many of these lists, I really
see the reasons behind one of the biggest complaints. I'm getting about 4
copies of each of the messages in the Vince Cate thread.

<insert gratuitous 'me too' here>

--mark--
-hedges-






From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Sep  7 19:38:20 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:38:20 +0800
Subject: wired on y2k
Message-ID: <199809080235.TAA23415@netcom13.netcom.com>




------- Forwarded Message

Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:38:07 -0500
To: believer at telepath.com
From: believer at telepath.com
Subject: IP: Wired: "The Y2K Solution: Run for Your Life!!"

Source:  Wired
http://www.wired.com/wired/6.08/y2k.html

F E A T U R E|Issue 6.08 - August 1998 

The Y2K Solution: Run for Your Life!! 
 By Kevin Poulsen 

 Scott Olmsted is dressed to do some serious debugging: comfortable khaki
shorts, a T-shirt from a Visual Basic conference, and a visor from one of
his Silicon Valley employers. But we're a long way from the land of
cubicles and industrial parks. In fact, we're a long way from just about
everything. 

 Scott is debugging with a hammer, trying to remove a stubborn two-by-four
from the wall of a mobile home plunked down in the high desert of Southern
California. After banging away for a few minutes, he finally yanks the stud
off the wall in a flurry of sawdust and splintered wood. It's a small
victory, but it brings him one step closer to his own solution to the
greatest computer glitch in history - the Year 2000 Bug. With more than 20
years of computer programming experience under his belt, Scott has decided
that the only real fix for the Y2K problem may be to pack up and move to
this patch of land 75 miles from his San Diego home. "In the next year or
so," he predicts, "the most common cocktail party chatter will be, 'What
are you doing to prepare for Y2K?' But by then, it will be too late." 

 This is sagebrush country, the kind of place where you can hear your
footsteps crunching in the gravel. But even here, 30 miles from the nearest
interstate, a line of telephone poles runs along the dirt road and PacBell
terminal boxes sprout from the ground alongside the cacti. While carpet
installers work in the next room, Scott is planning for the day when it may
all be useless. The property came with a freshwater well, and he'll soon
have a solar panel for power. For protection against looters, he's about to
purchase his first gun. "I've seen how fragile so many software systems are
- - how one bug can bring them down," he worries. The idea of hundreds,
thousands, millions of bugs cascading all at once keeps him awake at night. 

 His Y2K retreat is easy to spot. In an area where high security means a
few strands of barbed wire clinging to a rusty pole, Scott's chain-link
fence is shiny and new. The alarm-company sign that hangs from the fence
would be more at home in Brentwood, and on the roof there's a DirecTV
satellite dish pointed toward the sky. The shed outside his back door will
hold nonperishable food. But with a programmer's methodical logic, Scott
didn't rush out to buy a year's worth of dehydrated grub. First he sampled
the fare from several distributors. One company sold a textured vegetable
protein that was a bit more expensive, but it came in a variety of flavors:
chicken, beef, and taco. "It was pretty good," Scott says, in the halting
measured tones of someone who doesn't want come across as a wacko. "We were
pleasantly surprised." So he splurged. What the hell, doomsday comes along
only once in a lifetime. 

 Throughout history, prophets and visionaries have spent their lives
preparing for the end of the world. But this time veteran software
programmers are blazing the millennial trail. The geeks have read the
future, not in the Book of Revelation, but in a few million lines of
computer code. 

 By now, the source of their anxiety is well known. In the 1950s and 1960s,
when the computer world was young and memory was expensive, programmers
developed a convention for marking the passage of time. It's the same
system most people use to date their checks: two digits for the day, two
for the month, and two for the year. Dropping the "19" from the year was
convenient, and it saved two bytes of precious RAM every time it was used. 

 Those were days of innocence and optimism. Everyone knew what would happen
if this little shortcut was still in use in AD 2000 - the two-digit year
would roll over like the odometer on an old Chevy, and the computers would
think they'd jumped 100 years into the past. Programmers knew it, and they
warned their managers. Not to worry, was the usual reply. When the
millennium finally rolls around, all this code will be ancient history. 

 But the code stuck around. The old software worked fine in the
postmainframe world, so nobody felt compelled to replace it. Instead, like
Roman architects, they just built on top of it. The two-digit year became a
standard, wired right into the heart of Cobol - the Common Business
Oriented Language that still serves as the digital workhorse of commerce
and industry. It also crept into the embedded microchips found in
everything from VCRs to nuclear power plants. For years the Y2K bug sat
quietly, remembered largely as an amusing textbook example of poor software
design. 

 But as 2000 drew near, the screwup became less amusing. In November 1996,
the comp.software.year-2000 newsgroup was launched, creating a forum that
would soon become ground zero for the Y2K survivalist movement. But at
first, the charter was clear: Discussions would be limited to Y2K bug
fixes, remediation strategies, and reports. 

 Over the course of the next year, information poured into the newsgroup,
and most of it was bad: The FAA was hopelessly behind schedule in patching
air-traffic-control systems; Edward Yardeni, chief economist for Deutsche
Morgan Grenfell Bank, laid odds that Y2K upheaval would trigger a
recession; Ed Yourdon, a respected software guru and author of 25 computer
books, predicted the collapse of the US government - not long after he
packed up and moved to New Mexico. 

 Optimism became a scarce commodity. Philosophical questions were raised:
Do programmers have a moral duty to remain at their keyboards until the
last moments of 1999, like captains on a sinking ship? Debates raged over
social Darwinism and the ownership of wheat in grain elevators. The
conversation moved on to the viability of dry dog food as emergency
rations. Plans were made to begin converting equities into gold and buying
land in remote parts of California, Arizona, and Oklahoma. January 1998 saw
250 cross-posts to misc.survivalism - up from an average of 30 a month in
late 1997. Gradually, a new acronym entered the Internet lexicon:
TEOTWAWKI, pronounced "tee-OH-tawa-kee." The End of the World as We Know
It. The
 Internet's very own survival movement was born. 

 Scott Olmsted has known about the Y2K bug since the 1980s, but he never
gave it much thought until early 1997, when he received a snail-mail flyer
from Gary North, a historian and early leader in the Y2K preparedness
movement. After reading it, Scott remembers feeling a vague sense of dread.
But as a rational guy and student of decision analysis - the science of
logical decision making in the face of chronic uncertainty - he didn't jump
to any conclusions. Instead, he went online to do some research. As he
pored over Web sites and news clippings, Scott felt himself moving through
the same psychological stages endured by people confronted with fatal
illness: denial, fading into anger, leading to a deep depression that
culminates in a sense of acceptance. "I'm still not 100 percent sure that
the world's coming to an end," he admits. "But the idea that I may want to
get out of town for a while is not such a long shot. It's enough to make me
want to prepare." 

 With the exception of his wife, most of the non-geeks closest to Scott
think he's a little nuts. His half-brother, Clark Freeman, thought he was
going overboard. But since then, Clark has come around a bit - he, too, is
planning to stockpile some food in case things get rough. 

 If his brother is taking Y2K so seriously, he figures there might well be
something to it. "Scott has always been the level-headed one," Clark
remembers. "The classic straightlaced nerd." 

 "I've spoken with friends and relatives about this, and I've gotten
nowhere," Scott sighs. Worse, some of the more intense Y2K survivalists
also think he's crazy - or at least a bit na�ve. After all, Scott plans to
celebrate New Year's Eve at his home in the suburbs; the place in the
desert will be there just in case things get rough. Then there's his fence
- - it has no perimeter alarms, and he isn't even trying to camouflage his
location. But worst of all, his hideaway is only a half tank of gas away
from Los Angeles - close enough to the big city that he could wake up one
postapocalyptic morning to find hordes of Los Angelinos parked outside his
desert redoubt. 

 The hardcores believe it will happen like this: On January 1 (or shortly
thereafter), the electricity grid will go dead. Groceries in America's
refrigerators will go bad. Food distribution systems will crash and store
shelves will go bare within days. Businesses will fail, either because they
aren't Y2K compliant or because they are dependent on noncompliant
customers and suppliers. As losses mount and companies go under, the stock
market will plummet. Banks will calculate interest for negative 100 years.
The government will stop issuing entitlement checks to gray-haired senior
citizens when their age suddenly clicks back to -35. Panic will set in.
Police dispatch systems will be crippled, and the only law will be the law
of the jungle. Desperate citizens will abandon the cities to hunt for
resources in rural areas. They'll come looking for the mad prophets - the
Y2K survivalists - ready to plunder their food, their heat, and their
communications links. They'll zero in on Scott and his conspicuous retreat
like a pack of wolves on the scent of a kill. 

 But they'd better stay away from Steve Watson's place. 

 Steve Watson, a 45-year-old systems analyst, is still kicking himself for
not preparing sooner. He didn't get going until early this year, and he
worries that he still has a lot of adjusting to do. As he puts it, "I
didn't even know how to tan a hide until a couple of months ago." 

 If all goes according to plan, Steve will ring in the new year at a secure
compound somewhere in southern Oklahoma. While the Pollyannas of the world
watch Times Square on the tube, he'll be listening to the radio for early
news of Y2K disaster. When the power goes black - perhaps at the stroke of
midnight - he'll be ready with a small arsenal of guns. A generator will
power his bunker indefinitely, but no light will escape to the outside -
none of Steve's neighbors will even know that there is a survivalist in
their midst. 

 Eight months ago, if you'd told Steve that Y2K survivalism would become
his obsession, he would have laughed in your face. Last year, he was a
happy-go-lucky Y2K project analysis manager for DMR Consulting, a
Canada-based computer consulting firm, just finishing up a big remediation
project for a major American phone company. The effort was grueling - 10
writers, programmers, and analysts cleaning up 10 million of lines of Cobol
code. But in the end it all worked out, and the phone company's billing
system was declared ready for 2000. 

 In that heady moment of self-congratulation, Bill Finch, one of Steve's
coworkers, approached him with a thought. "Steve," he said, "don't you
realize that everything stops if the power grid goes down?" 

 Anxiety set in. The telephone company had poured substantial resources
into its Y2K effort. Even then, Steve's project had been an odyssey plagued
with countless unexpected glitches and snags. If the power utilities - with
their Byzantine grid of thousands of generators and substations around the
continent - weren't already well along in their efforts, then all the
systems he'd dragged into Y2K compliance would be dead as doornails when
the lights went out. 

 That afternoon, Steve hit the Net, where he learned that the situation is
far worse than he had imagined. The power grid relies on a sophisticated
feedback mechanism: Remote terminal units report their power needs up the
communications chain that controls the output of electricity generators.
The entire network is riddled with embedded chips. Nuclear plants supply
nearly 20 percent of the power in the grid, and none of them have been
certified as Y2K compliant. Charles Siebenthal, head of the Year 2000
embedded systems project at the Electric Power Research Institute, says the
industry is just beginning to look for potential Y2K failure points.
Anecdotes from industry consultants suggest that if the year 2000 came
today, every utility in the country would crash. "No electric plant or
facility of any kind has been Y2K tested without some kind of impact," says
David Hall, a senior consultant with the Cara Corporation. "There isn't
enough time to fix everything. There will be some disruption. How long? How
deep? We just don't know." 

 Then there are ripple effects to consider. "There's not a single railroad
switch in the country that's manual anymore," Steve says. "They're all
computer controlled, and railroads deliver coal and fuel to power plants." 

 Exit Steve Watson, bright-eyed optimist; enter the new Steve Watson, Y2K
survivalist, rugged pioneer, and Renaissance man in training. Steve began
spending six hours a day on the Internet, studying alternative power,
construction techniques, and emergency medical procedures. Anything he
couldn't find online, he ordered from local bookstores or Amazon.com. He'd
never kept a gun in the house, but soon he had three: a 30-30 for deer
hunting, a .22 for small game, and a 9-mm handgun for personal protection.
Of course, the 9-mm is practically a popgun against looting mobs, so four
M-16 assault rifles are also on the way. 

 Finally, he pooled his money with Bill Finch, his DMR coworker, to buy 500
remote acres in Oklahoma. (Bill holds the public deed to the property, so
his name has been changed in this article to keep the location secret.) In
choosing the hideaway site and its size, Steve overengineered to account
for family and friends - few of whom subscribe to his Y2K scenario. "Most
people think I'm nuts. Even my kids think, Dad's going off the deep end."
Steve's wife, Teresa, has been more supportive. She's no computer expert,
but her Baptist faith tells her that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
could ride in with a global computer crash. Meanwhile, Steve is making
plans for everyone else: close friends, family members, sisters-in-law,
brothers-in-law - and their children, mothers, and fathers. Forty people in
all. In 2000, they'll work together to till the soil and patrol the fence
line. 

 Steve's doomsday vision is the same as that of most Y2K radicals, but
radicals can pop up in some pretty mainstream places - like the US Central
Intelligence Agency, which is advising its agents abroad to keep cash on
hand and stockpile extra blankets in preparation for New Year's Day 2000.
The agency worries that bugs in the power networks and communications
backbones of developing nations could cause outages that would jeopardize
the safety and well-being of its agents. 

 Millions of Americans have already gotten a small taste of critical system
failure. When the onboard control system of the Galaxy IV communications
satellite failed on Tuesday, May 19, 1998, the outage temporarily crippled
US pager networks, several broadcast news operations, and even credit card
verifications systems. Most of the disruptions were brief - technicians
were able to switch to backup communications paths - but doctors who use
pagers as a lifeline with patients and colleagues were forced to set up
camp in hospitals and offices. The failure of one satellite threw a wrench
into the mechanisms of modern life, perhaps providing a peek at what life
may be like at the dawn of the new millennium. 

 Or sooner. While the full brunt of the Y2K bug is reserved for AD 2000,
some early problems are already developing. In 1996, Visa and MasterCard
temporarily stopped issuing credit cards with an expiration date of 2000
after credit card verification terminals began choking on the "00." The
gaffe led to customer complaints and a lawsuit filed by a suburban Detroit
grocery store against its computer supplier, TEC America Inc. Since then,
most verification systems have been upgraded, but Y2K is making its
presence known in other areas. The Information Technology Association of
America released a survey last March showing 44 percent of the US companies
they polled have already experienced Y2K failures. Ninety-four percent of
the respondents termed Y2K a "crisis." 

 The GartnerGroup estimates that 180 billion lines of code need to be
examined and that 20 to 30 percent of all firms worldwide have not yet
started preparing for Y2K. Many of these are expected to suffer significant
failures. In a series of studies issued over the last year, Gartner
surveyed 15,000 companies in 87 countries to assess their Y2K readiness.
The results weren't encouraging. Small companies rated lowest - for most,
winning over new customers has taken priority over the Y2K problem. But
midsize and large companies are lagging, too. Gartner then rated the
overall Y2K efforts of industrialized nations on a scale of zero to five,
where five is total compliance on all systems. The highest scorers on the
scale, including the US, Canada, and Australia, rated somewhere between two
and three - a score that suggests they have completed an inventory of Y2K
vulnerabilities, but not yet developed a comprehensive remediation plan. 

 The US may be at the front of the pack in the Y2K race, but that's small
comfort to some legislators. Last March, the House Subcommittee on
Government Management, Information, and Technology warned that 37 percent
of the critical systems used by federal agencies will not be ready in time.
Then in June, California Republican Stephen Horn, who heads the
subcommittee, issued a scathing report card on the Clinton administration's
Y2K progress. He gave the government an F. 

 John Koskinen, head of the president's Year 2000 Conversion Council,
complains that Horn is just a tough grader. "As a government, we're in a C+
to B range," he argues. Koskinen keeps a digital desktop clock that runs
backward - on the day we spoke, the clock showed 609 days, 8 hours, 39
minutes, 16 seconds, and counting - but he generally refrains from calling
the situation a crisis. Instead, he describes it as a "critical management
challenge." 

 He fully expects the federal government's critical systems to be ready on
time, or even early. "Many companies, financial institutions, and federal
agencies are still working on the problem," he says. "But most major
organizations plan to have their solutions in place by the first quarter of
next year." 

 If the council is successful, Koskinen believes, Americans will confront
little more than a few minor inconveniences when the year 2000 finally
rolls around. "There's not enough information right now to indicate that
stocking up on Coleman stoves and Sterno is an appropriate response," he
says. And in the end, he predicts, "a lot of people won't notice." 

 Koskinen has earned the respect of some Y2Kers by emphasizing the need for
high-level planning in the event that some systems fail. But Y2K
survivalists feel more comfortable with their own personal contingency
plans, and a commercial infrastructure is already forming to support them.
Walton Feed, an Idaho food distributor that sells products over the Net, is
doing a brisk business in long-term supplies; the company attributes this
to Y2K. And in Sully County, South Dakota, developer Russ Voorhees has
attracted national publicity and hundreds of potential clients for his
"Heritage Farms 2000" project - a Y2K survival community that's been on
hold since June, when a local planning commission refused to grant the
necessary building permits. For those who want to go it alone, there's a
sense of adventurous fun in their preparations - the pride of
self-sufficiency and an excuse to get away from the keyboard to earn some
merit badges. But Y2K preparedness is not just a Boy Scout fetish, and it
isn't always about getting away from it all. 

 "If everybody moves to rural areas, they'll just take their problems with
them," explains Paloma O'Riley, a red-haired, forty-something mother, wife,
and computer expert. Paloma lives in the small town of Louisville,
Colorado, just east of Boulder, and when she looks around her community she
doesn't see potential looters - she sees neighbors. Her suburban hamlet has
become a major landmark on the Y2K map as the world headquarters of The
Cassandra Project, a grassroots Y2K preparedness organization that can
perhaps best be described as a kind of Millennial Neighborhood Watch. 

 Until last year, Paloma was a Y2K project manager at the Rover Group, a
UK-based auto manufacturer, where her first responsibility was to identify
all of the company's vulnerable systems and target them for patching. But
her search didn't end with a couple of corporate mainframes. Inadvertently,
Paloma opened up the Pandora's Box of Y2K: embedded systems. 

 Embedded systems draw the Y2K bug-fixing task out of cyberspace and into
the real world. There are lots of pea-brained microchips out there, nestled
in everything from microwave ovens and automobiles, to power plants and oil
refineries. Most don't care what the date is, but a small percentage of
them do, and that made Paloma nervous. "I became concerned about just how
prevalent embedded systems are," she recalls. "Several members of my family
have medical problems, so when I started investigating I became very
concerned about medical devices like defibrillators, physiological
monitoring equipment, and the entire medical services infrastructure." 

 When her contract came up for renewal in 1997, Rover asked Paloma to stay
on in London to 2000. She declined - the thought of family and friends
surrounded by noncompliant systems that might leave them cold, hungry, and
without medical services was too much to ignore. Back in the States she
began networking with other people who shared her concerns, and that's when
she realized "we needed to put together an organization to address the
issues and get information out to the public." 

 Thus The Cassandra Project was born. In Greek mythology, Cassandra was a
mortal woman courted by the god Apollo. To win her affections, Apollo gave
her the gift of prophecy. Still, Cassandra rejected him, so the frustrated
deity decreed that no one would ever believe her predictions. Paloma
O'Riley gave a nod to Cassandra's fate when she chose the name for her Y2K
preparedness group, but she is precisely the kind of mortal woman you'd
want at your next PTA meeting - a firm believer in the notion that some
good, old-fashioned community-building may keep the Y2K nightmare at bay. 

 The Cassandra Project has helped spawn a dozen Y2K community preparedness
groups around the country. It has a board of directors that includes
several computer professionals and a Web site at millennia-bcs.com that
lists a menu of articles discussing possible Y2K scenarios, ranging from
minor annoyances to outright Y2Kaos. The site attracts more than 100,000
visitors a month. 

 Between speaking engagements, Paloma spends her days organizing biweekly
meetings with neighbors to discuss contingency plans, and lobbying the
state government. "We've been working with the Cassandra group on a lot of
their initiatives," says Steve McNally, staff director of the Colorado
Information Management Commission. "They've talked to several legislators
and the governor's office and brought some awareness of the issues to the
table." 

 For her part, Paloma and her family plan to stockpile a six-month supply
of food. Her worst-case scenarios look much the same as those of the most
hardcore, self-sufficient Y2K survivalists, but the bomb-shelter aspect is
conspicuously missing. Paloma believes that people will pull together in
times of turmoil. If calamity strikes and she is forced to draw the line,
she's determined to do so in her own backyard. 

 Even if Paloma's neighborly pragmatism sets her apart from the militia
types and fundamentalist Christians who regularly contact The Cassandra
Project, her efforts have brought her in contact with a thriving
premillennial subculture. "People in other millennial movements, including
Christian fundamentalism, point to Y2K as a sign of the times," says Philip
Lamy, a professor of sociology and anthropology at Castleton College in
Vermont. Lamy specializes in the study of secular millennialism, and he
sees Y2K survivalism as a prime example of the genre. "Generally,
millennial movements appear when a society or culture is going through a
period of rapid cultural, economic, or technological change," he says. "The
explosion of the Internet and the World Wide Web is fueling a lot of this
now." 

 Still, there are a few things that set the Y2Kers apart from the crowd.
For one, the Y2K bug is not simply a matter of myth, superstition, or
prophesy - it is a tangible problem hardwired into the fabric of our
industrial society. In addition, the people who are taking Y2K most
seriously are not laypeople or neophytes - they are specialized technicians
who approach the situation with a sophisticated understanding of society's
hidden machinery. But if heightened technical awareness alone could explain
the apocalyptic conclusions drawn by the Y2K survivalists, then every
well-informed computer geek would be moving to the desert - and that
clearly isn't happening. With so many intertwined variables to consider,
logic inevitably takes a back seat to subjective intuition - a personal
sense of security that extends from the microcosm of a single computer
program to the macrocosm of modern society. Ultimately it all comes down to
faith. 

 But this, too, sets the Y2K survivalists apart. True millennialism is
rooted in faith - fundamentalist Christians may anticipate an apocalypse,
but they optimistically expect it to be followed by 1,000 years of
celestial rule. Y2K survivalism, on the other hand, doesn't concern itself
with redemption. It is antimillennial - the polar opposite of
techno-millennial movements like the Extropians who see technology as the
stairway to a higher plane. (See "Meet the Extropians," Wired 2.10, page
102.) 

 "All this suggests that you don't have to be a religious fanatic, a
Christian fundamentalist, or a ufologist to believe that our world may be
in trouble - that there's something serious afoot in our nation and our
world," Lamy adds. "The Y2K problem is overlapping with other survivalist
movements, and like them it shares a kind of a fatalistic vision of the
future." 

 Three weeks have passed since Scott Olmsted put the carpet installers to
work in his retreat. The carpet is in now, and he's turned his attention to
other details, like night-vision equipment - his property is on high
ground, and with the right hardware he could scan most of the valley from
his backyard. He's also thinking of getting laser eye surgery so that he
won't be dependent on contact lenses after 2000. It never seems to end.
"Once you take the first steps to prepare, you basically admit that this is
big enough to do something about. And then you realize you should be doing
more." 

 Scott has turned his back on denial - the blind faith that allows people
to live normal lives in the face of staggering complexity, risk, and
uncertainty. Instead, he's chosen to acknowledge his own vulnerability. As
he describes it, "I've always known that the economy is complex and that we
live on the end of a long chain of ships, planes, and 18-wheelers." Scott
sees how the Y2K bug could disrupt that chain, and like other resolute
souls - environmental activists, antiabortion protesters, and corporate
whistle-blowers to name a few - he, too, has been driven to act by the
clarity and intensity of his vision. The rest of us may be content without
quite so much awareness, but embracing the Bug has actually made Scott feel
better. "I know one guy who started taking Prozac when his denial fell
away," he says. "Taking action - doing something - really gets you out of
that." 

 Scott admits there isn't enough evidence to prove he's right. But, he
insists, that's not the way to look at it. "There's not nearly enough
evidence pointing the other way to make me abandon my preparations," he
says. In a way, he's managed to optimize the Y2K problem - even if the new
millennium dawns without incident, his efforts will have yielded a supply
of inexpensive food, a new collection of practical skills, and a nice
vacation home in the country. It's an eminently logical win-win, and Scott
has taken comfort in that. "I'm not waiting until the ground is shaking to
prepare for the Y2K earthquake," he muses. "I'm going to be ready for an
8.5. I may look foolish if it turns out to be minor, but that's OK. That's
the nature of decisionmaking under uncertainty."

 Kevin Poulsen is a columnist for ZDTV.com . 

 America Offline 

 ( Inside the Great Blackout of '00 )

 "Most of the nation's power systems must be compliant, or they all go
down, region by region, in one gigantic, rolling blackout," warns Gary
North, keeper of the oldest, most notorious Y2K doomsday site on the Web.
If the lights go out at the dawn of the 21st century, North believes the
failure will be permanent, because the computers that control the grid will
be unfixable if there isn't power to run them. Thereafter, he argues, the
blackout will trigger the collapse of civilization. 

 The North American grid is vulnerable to simultaneous failures. Generating
facilities in the US, Canada, and Mexico jointly move power through
high-tension lines that distribute electricity through four regional
interconnections. Within each region, if one facility goes offline, the
others compensate to pick up the slack. But there's not much spare capacity
built into the system; the North American Electric Reliability Council, a
group that is drawing up a timetable of Y2K fixes for the Department of
Energy, admits that if multiple generating facilities fail in one region,
this "may result in stressing the electric system to the point of a
cascading outage over a large area." 

 This is how it could happen: A power station is equipped with safety
systems that deactivate steam boilers if they aren't maintained frequently.
Suppose maintenance was last performed in 1999, which an embedded chip
recorded as "99." Now it's the year 2000, so the chip subtracts the old
year, 99, from the new year, 00, and finds, amazingly, that maintenance was
last performed -99 years ago. Clearly this is an error, so the chip shuts
down all the boilers, just to be safe. 

 Meanwhile, at another power station, a temperature sensor attached to a
transformer averages its readings over time. On January 1, 2000, the sensor
divides temperature by the year - which is expressed as "00" - and comes up
with an infinite value, triggering another shutdown signal. If small faults
like these knock out a half dozen facilities, the rest will go offline to
protect generators from burning out in a hopeless effort to meet the
growing demand. 

 The distribution grid also has weak points. "We have at least 800
different types of embedded controls on the wires," explains Gary Steeves,
director of a Y2K project at TransAlta Utilities, the largest
investor-owned power company in Canada. "Some of the protective devices log
dates of faults in activity and can automatically take a component out of
service." If the same controller has been installed in thousands of remote
locations, and the chips share the same Y2K bug, they'll all fail
simultaneously. 

 Most US power utilities refuse to comment on the likelihood of these
disasters, fearing litigation if they offer reassurances that turn out to
be wrong. 

 Tim Wilson, publisher of Y2k News, worries about the nearly 9,000 small
regional companies that pull power off the grid at the local level.
"They're clueless as to what to do about Y2K," says Wilson. "They know they
have embedded chips, but they don't know where they are. If there's a power
shortage, rural areas may not be allowed to take power off the grid,
because cities could have a higher priority." 

 This suggests an ironic scenario: Remote areas may remain dark for weeks
or months after January 1, 2000, leaving Y2K survivalists waiting in their
isolated cabins for the lights to come back on - while complacent urban
dwellers enjoy uninterrupted service. 

 - Charles Platt 

Copyright � 1993-98 The Cond� Nast Publications Inc. All rights reserved. 
Compilation Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. All rights reserved. 
- -----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
- -----------------------




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     majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
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**********************************************
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------- End of Forwarded Message





From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Sep  7 19:52:22 1998
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:52:22 +0800
Subject: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66...
In-Reply-To: <199809080109.UAA06813@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199809080247.TAA09568@proxy4.ba.best.com>



At 08:09 PM 9/7/98 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Here in Austin we have a local radio dj who does a public 
> access show on various issue localy and nationaly, Alex 
> Jones, who has put a piece on some sort of bio-weapon test 
> that occurred in '66 in San Francisco. He is claiming that 
> deaths resulted.
>
> Anyone have a clue what he's talking about?

Had a bioweapons test occurred in the people's republic of 
San Francisco, it seems likely they would have erected 
billboards spelling out the details in letters visible from 
the moon.

I assume that this is one of these anonymous source things.  
According to official, yet anonymous sources the US/CIA 
forces committed every crime of every regime around the 
world, including the purported crimes of Pol Pot in Cambodia, 
(I kid you not) and they are actually running a totalitarian 
state in the USA but the people are too brainwashed to 
notice.  They also sell cocaine.

Similarly, according to sources that are not anonymous, but 
which (strange to report) no one else can find, Nike is 
actually producing its shoes in something very like slave 
labor camps.

The reason the refutation of the CNN story (US uses nerve gas 
to kill defectors and exterminate villagers) made such news 
is that CNN was so careless as to actually name identifiable 
real people as the source of this story. (They needed faces 
and it is hard to put the faces of anonymous sources on TV.) 
Naturally those real people were mighty pissed and denied the 
story attributed to them.

There is a wagon load of similar stories using supposedly 
official, but anonymous sources, or sources that do not 
appear to be real people.  The print media works much better 
for such sources than TV.

In short, do you think the internet is the net of a million 
lies?  Not so.  It is the place where lies get exposed. It is
far easier to get away with lying in the old media, because
nobody answers you back. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     q3LBLR6odNzwIKI1p2zeYnP4Kzv2MSbsmKm0u2M5
     4W6++mmQ2e3TnYU5J3oM1+BvPivukgtAcxEWE47MN
-----------------------------------------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because 
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this 
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.


http://www.jim.com/jamesd/����� James A. Donald





From unicorn at schloss.li  Mon Sep  7 19:55:57 1998
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:55:57 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <s5f44f00.017@aba.com>
Message-ID: <199809080254.TAA05443@cyberpass.net>



At 08:24 PM 9/7/98 , Kawika Daguio wrote:
>Bob,
>
>The syllogism at the end of your post is exactly why I have spent the last 
>more than 5 years negotiating and lobbying and why we (FI's) and you 
>(everyone else) shouldn't worry about the impact of government policy on the 
>security of financial communications.  Market (macro and microeconomics 
>plays a bigger role than the government.

So that explains why the U.S. price for e.g., sugar, has exceed the world
price for sugar by 20-30% to as much as 50% for something like 20 years,
right?  Because government efforts at manipulating prices and policies are
useless?  This is, of course, but a single example.

Mr. Hettinga comments:

>Do people out there really think somebody like Gore's going to do a
crypto-amnesty someday?

Please.  Revoking one's citizenship, particularly for a better option- of
which there are many- is hardly the end of the world, and is unlikely to
make one a felon.  It will, in fact, prevent one from becoming one in this
case which is, of course, the point.  Using terms like "Crypto-amnesty" is
just inflammatory.

Mr. Hettinga further comments:

>I expect people who do this crypto-expat stuff are going to get their
>new passports refused at the U.S. border when they visit, and I think that
>things are going to get worse for them for a long time before they get
better.

Of course, this is nonsense.  I know several major U.S. tax offenders who
have several million in liens and civil judgements who return to the United
States on a regular basis, they just don't maintain assets there.  Further,
one of them just recently renewed his U.S. passport at the U.S. consulate
without incident.

Bottom line:  People don't become criminals in the United States because
they leave it.  Consider the ramifications of turning people away at the
border because they are engaged in completely legitimate commercial
practices abroad which are, none the less, undesirable in the United
States?  Christ, the U.S. can't even turn away well known but unconvicted
French Economic Intelligence experts at the border.

I am constantly amused at the attitude of Americans who are convinced that
anyone who lives outside of the "end-all-be-all of the civilized world"
must live in some third world country.  This too is nonsense.  If I were
jurisdiction shopping I'm not sure I'd pick a small African nation, as some
others have, because this state would be extremely unlikely to protect me
from the kind of nastiness that nations are expected to protect citizens
from.  Also, visa-free travel is a pretty big consideration.  Picking a
country not well established in this regard is folly.

Cryptography is the cutting edge of many things, but that situation is
quickly wavering.  It's not long before being a cryptographer is even less
profitable than it is today.  If plying your trade is important, waiting
around for "market forces" to convince the FBI that they have it all wrong
is probably not a good strategy.

Incidentally, if anyone needs assistance contacting the best migration
consultants around, I'd be happy to give you my views and make referrals.

Some of you who want a counterpoint based on something a bit more
substantial than provincial fear mongering might ask after Tim May, who I
recall considered departing the United States but decided against it for a
variety of reasons.






From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl  Mon Sep  7 20:00:42 1998
From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:00:42 +0800
Subject: h
Message-ID: <dd57698b8bf6a89f5ae5d0b464087779@anonymous>



On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 CRBREW9802 at aol.com wrote:

> 
> how did u do it
> 
> 

Usually, it is done as follows:

1) Find a willing partner. If you're a Democrat, find a subordinate or an
intern.
2) Make sure your partner wears appropriate attire. If you're a Democrat,
a blue dress is appropriate.
3) Unzip your pants.
4) Tell your partner to "kiss it."
5) When you ejaculate, make sure your partner does something suitable with
the ejaculate. If you're a Democrat, ensure that she dribbles it over the
dress.
6) If you're a Democrat, ensure that she saves the dress, doesn't have it
cleaned, and then turns it over to the FBI for DNA testing.

For our AOL friend, the following has been converted into the Language of
the AOLholes:

i) find a wiling partner if your a democrat find a subordinate or a
intern...
2) make sure your partner wears right clothing if you're a democrat a blue
dress is right........
3... unzipp you pants
4) tell you partner to kiss it...
5-when u cum make sure your bitch does something with the jiz if your a
democrat make sure she drops it in the dress man...
6) If you'r a democrat make sure that she saves da dress...and doesn't
have it cleaned...and gives it to the FIB for RNA testing...

LamenessMonger






From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Sep  7 20:08:29 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:08:29 +0800
Subject: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809080324.WAA07929@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 19:34:29 -0700
> From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd at echeque.com>
> Subject: Re: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66...

> I assume that this is one of these anonymous source things. =20

Actualy no, Alex was showing some documents with government seals and such. I
haven't had a chance to contact him so far but intend to. The only way I
have of getting a hold of him is to call his talk show or his access tv
show. His next access show is tomorrow (Tue.) nite.

The gist was that some group within the US gov. did a test in some area of
San Fran. and several deaths occurred. It wasn't done with the knowledge or
permission of the Cali. or San Fran. officials as described by Alex to date.

As I find more info I'll pass it along.

[bunch of other peripheral drivel deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  7 20:23:05 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:23:05 +0800
Subject: crossposting
In-Reply-To: <s5f44f00.016@aba.com>
Message-ID: <v0313030eb21a5206cc48@[209.66.100.36]>



At 7:30 PM -0700 9/7/98, Mark Hedges wrote:
>Ya know, I sometimes cross-post across lists when I shouldn't, so I'm
>guilty of that too, but now that I'm on so many of these lists, I really
>see the reasons behind one of the biggest complaints. I'm getting about 4
>copies of each of the messages in the Vince Cate thread.
>
><insert gratuitous 'me too' here>

I stay off of these proliferating lists. The Cypherpunks list was the first
one, and despite its many flaws over the years, it's enough for me.

I'm not on the Lewispunks list, nor the Perrypunks list, nor any of the
many Hettingapunks lists. And when the Cypherpunks list briefly became the
Sandypunks list, I left for a while.

Works for me. Cypherpunks...the Real Thing (TM).

BTW, I dislike getting all these crossposts from Lewispunks, Perrypunks,
and Hettingapunks, all the more so when attempting to _reply_ to these
messages often generates "You have no permission to post to this list"
responses, or the like. Makes me want to get some of Vulis' tools and apply
them appropriately.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  7 21:20:50 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:20:50 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <s5f44f00.017@aba.com>
Message-ID: <v0313030fb21a54ac6b9b@[209.66.100.36]>



(As per my last message, I have deleted all of the mailing lists except
Cypherpunks.)


At 7:51 PM -0700 9/7/98, Black Unicorn wrote:


>I am constantly amused at the attitude of Americans who are convinced that
>anyone who lives outside of the "end-all-be-all of the civilized world"
>must live in some third world country.  This too is nonsense.  If I were
>jurisdiction shopping I'm not sure I'd pick a small African nation, as some
>others have, because this state would be extremely unlikely to protect me
>from the kind of nastiness that nations are expected to protect citizens
>from.  Also, visa-free travel is a pretty big consideration.  Picking a
>country not well established in this regard is folly.

I'm not going to criticize Vince for his decision to go with
Mozambique...but....

Seems not to too long ago Mozambique was a semi-Communists African
dictatorship, involved in various wars with RSA (the original one). And
various killings of Westerners, and so on.

But I may be misremembering. And Mozambique may have changed (or, rather,
the ruler may have changed). But it seems to me that perhaps paying $5000
for Mozambiquan (sp?) citizenship will buy just about that amount of
protections.

Vince is probably safe enough. But if ever gets into a snit at some border,
or if the U.S. seeks an extradition (not that I am predicting this, as
crypto is still too obscure for such headline-grabbing efforts), I rather
doubt the Mozambiquan consulate or embassy will lift even a little toe to
help.

Were I to expatriate, I'd pick a more stable country, like Switzerland or
the other countries BU often speaks of. Or I'd just travel around and count
on  their being little nexus of my activities.

(Which would be my main strategy: use the very cryptographic technologies
we support to virtualize the activities and make the whole issue moot. This
would require a fair amount of care in using the tools consistently,
without any slip-ups, but it seems doable. With care, one could run a
crypto development effort from some pleasant U.S. locale with no means of
proving any U.S. laws were being broken. Sameer seems to be doing it even
fairly openly, so imagine how much more secure someone who never publicized
his role could be?)


>Some of you who want a counterpoint based on something a bit more
>substantial than provincial fear mongering might ask after Tim May, who I
>recall considered departing the United States but decided against it for a
>variety of reasons.

Well, I'm in a somewhat different position from either Vince, who has
renounced, or Ryan, who is merely residing in the sunny Caribbean for some
amount of time.

* My assets are inextricably known to the IRS, SEC, and suchlike, via the
rules about stock ownership, transfer agents, etc. (Even had I wanted to
"hide" my assets as long ago as the early 80s, it would have been
effectively too late.)

* There may be ways I could flee the U.S. and get my assets out. Merely
taking my _certificates_ out is of course not nearly enough. Certificates
are not bearer instruments. Wiring my assets out may work, but is risky.
(Were I more serious about fleeing, I would know more about this. But I am
not, so I haven't looked into this in detail.)

* Oh, and this kind of flight by me would probably complicate my life in
various ways. While BU says he knows of various tax fugitives who still
cross back into the U.S., I know of others who don't feel comfortable doing
so, even in sneaking back i across border crossings like Tijuana. (And Marc
Rich, at the extreme end in wealth, is unable to return to the U.S., due to
warrants out for his detention on tax evasion and securities  charges.)

* What I dislike the most about the U.S. system are things like the gun
control laws, the tax rates, the welfare system, and the increasing
surveillance. Alas, most of the best havens are worse in some ways than the
U.S. (Most Caribbean nations alow no guns. Monaco has surveillance cameras
in all public places and does not like having "outspoken" residents...the
Prince may revoke citizenship on a whim and if a resident draws too much
attention to his little fiefdom. Several major European countries are more
thoroughgoingly statist than the U.S.)

* Anyway, I also _like_ a lot here in the U.S. I like the Constitution,
esp. the earlier, more libertarian parts. I like the scenery. I like the
freedom to travel. I like being able to get on my motorcycle and ride for
as long as I want with no pesky border crossings, no requirement to present
my passport at hotels, no police demanding "papers," and no 70% wealth
confiscation tax rates like some countries have.

(No doubt not all countries have all or most of these things. Enough do.
And as John Walker, founder of Autodesk and expatriate to Switzerland said,
moving to Switzerland from California will NOT lower one's tax rate.)

* I'm a Californian and I like the pleasant Mediterranean climate.

(BTW, I lived for a year on the French Riviera in the 1960s and have
visited a couple of times since. Neither France nor Monaco nor Italy is a
viable place for me, for various reasons.)

I wish Vince, Ryan, and all the others well.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  7 22:40:58 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:40:58 +0800
Subject: Tax silliness
In-Reply-To: <199809080254.TAA05443@cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <v03130300b21a7226574d@[209.66.100.138]>




Folks, I generally restrain myself from passing on all the various news
stories I see or read.

But tonight Fox News is reporting that the IRS has said it may seek to
assess "gift taxes" if the guy who recovered Mark McGwire's 61st home
baseball gives the ball back to Mark McGwire.

(The ball is said to have a street value, to museums or collectors, of
$250K or so. The 62nd home run ball, the one which breaks Maris' record,
will supposedly be worth more than a million bucks.)

So, the shmuck who got this ball faces taxes on an unrealized gain if he
never sells the ball. And he gets taxed if he hands the ball back to
McGwire.

He makes no money, but pays 30-40% of some theoretical value in taxes.

Those fuckers in D. C. need to be put out of our misery.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Sep  7 22:52:14 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:52:14 +0800
Subject: Tax silliness
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b21a7226574d@[209.66.100.138]>
Message-ID: <199809080548.BAA06556@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03130300b21a7226574d@[209.66.100.138]>, on 09/07/98 
   at 10:39 PM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>Those fuckers in D. C. need to be put out of our misery.

I agree 110%. This is something I have though long and hard on and have
come to the conclusion that a single strike to take out DC would only lead
to the establishment of a military dictatorship (though I must admit that
watching those bastards fry would almost be worth it <EG>). Eventually
some form of democracy would be restored (but freedoms would be much less
than what we have now) as it is simpler to control the sheeple if they
think they are running things.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Speed Kills - Use Windows!

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From dietpatches at bigfoot.com  Tue Sep  8 14:51:35 1998
From: dietpatches at bigfoot.com (dietpatches at bigfoot.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:51:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New! All Natural Weight Loss "Patch"!
Message-ID: <eaep.3.0.reg.BonGTT.36046.7272935185@avenel.CASLINK.com>



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From hugh at road.toad.com  Mon Sep  7 23:54:57 1998
From: hugh at road.toad.com (Hugh Daniel)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:54:57 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980907145305.17348E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199809080651.XAA00528@road.toad.com>



  I did not get a chance to download the great archive Ryan did, lets
hope it's on the disk there still, otherwise it has to be rebuilt by
someone.

		||ugh
		hugh at toad.com





From joe at printing.com  Tue Sep  8 15:37:21 1998
From: joe at printing.com (joe at printing.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Auto Reply to your message ...
Message-ID: <v04011708b21b5ff96225@[195.5.75.249]>


  -----  The following text is an automated response to your message  -----
Thank you for requesting samples of Web Cards.
We will be sending you several samples and a brochure within 24 hours.

Web Cards can be used in so many ways that we've prepared a special free
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President





From james.lucier at worldnet.att.net  Tue Sep  8 00:58:32 1998
From: james.lucier at worldnet.att.net (James Lucier)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:58:32 +0800
Subject: What we are Fighting
In-Reply-To: <v03130308b219b1d32914@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <000201bddb17$23206be0$08b24e0c@oemcomputer>



Actually, Tim, the way the Men in Black work is that they keep their bans on
domestic crypto under wraps until the last moment and then get them adopted
with no public hearings in the crisis atmosphere of a heavily lobbied markup
session at some critical point in the legislative calendar.  They know that
the more people actually understand what they are up to, the less they are
likely to get what they want.  But do not underestimate the power of having
useful stooges like Jerry Solomon and the shamefully clueless Jon Kyl in
positions where they can do last-minute switcheroo on bills that are being
moved to the floor.  One of the major reasons why we didn't get the
Goodlatte bill on the floor this year is that moving it to the Floor would
have resulted in putting Oxley Manton or the House Intelligence Committee
bill on the Floor at the same time.

-----Original Message-----
From:	owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net] On Behalf Of Tim May
Sent:	Monday, September 07, 1998 8:55 AM
To:	Declan McCullagh
Cc:	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject:	Re: What we are Fighting

At 6:53 AM -0700 9/7/98, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>There is, offically, a proposal on the table to limit speech within the
>U.S. by restricting sale, manufacture, distribution, import of non-GAK'd
>crypto. A House committee approved that one year ago.
>

I'd forgotten about that little one. Of course, it has not gone anywhere
(no Senate version or committee markup, right?), so I'm not yet ready to
say there's official action on its way. And, fortunately, the session is
over but for the shouting about Clinton and his cigars.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.








From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 01:06:01 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:06:01 +0800
Subject: Tax silliness
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b21a7226574d@[209.66.100.138]>
Message-ID: <199809080800.BAA17066@netcom13.netcom.com>



admittedly I'm not an expert on the subject,
but maybe the fan hands it back to mcguire for
authentication--for him to sign it, and return it to
the fan who then owns it. as far as collectors
items, a baseball can't be authenticated otherwise. 
I presume mcguire would have to write something
about "my 62nd home run ball"..

but your point is well taken. the IRS is getting
out of control. frankly I think they are like a huge
crowbar or vice that is slowly pressing down on the population.
all the loopholes are being removed from tax laws,
slowly, quietly. people who had no problem as independent
contractors (such as caddies) now get harassed by
the IRS. also, waiters & bartenders, who never made
much money, got a lot of flack over tips around the
late 80's.

eventually perhaps we'll have one world currency, and absolutely
no means of exchanging it other than through government
tracked mechanisms, all subject to taxes. 
that does seem to be the direction the world is heading.

I've written before on "alternative money systems". no
one here understood my points very well, but I still think
there is major potential for freedom through them. a sort
of 21st century tea party. there are some "barter cards"
that are taking off in various localities. these are
essentially tax-avoidance barter systems..  I hope they
catch on and force a showdown with politicians. eventually
the control freaks will be obvious and will not be
able to hide their tyranny. hopefully. the thing about
the american public though, is that sometimes they stay
asleep & give consent even when the tyrants emerge obvious.






From promo at printing.com  Tue Sep  8 01:52:19 1998
From: promo at printing.com (promo at printing.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:52:19 +0800
Subject: Auto Reply to your message ...
Message-ID: <35F478A400000217@mail.agtinc.net>

  -----  The following text is an automated response to your message  -----
Thank you for requesting samples of Web Cards.
We will be sending you several samples and a brochure within 24 hours.

Web Cards can be used in so many ways that we've prepared a special free
report on how 50 businesses have used them.  To get your report, simply
send an email to ideas at printing.com and it will be sent to you by email
immediately.

Web Cards are easy to order too.  You can use the on-line form at our Web
Site www.printing.com or print the form and fax it to 908-757-2604 or call
us at 800-352-2333.  We're very helpful and will work with you to adapt
your site to a postcard at no charge.

After setting up your card (which takes about 24 hours), we'll post a
"proof" of what it looks like on the Web and send you the address for you
to approve.  And if you have any changes, don't hesitate, there's no charge
for helping you get exactly what you want.

In the meantime, if you have any questions or would like sample cards for a
specific type of business, please call us at 800-352-2333 or email me at
joe at printing.com.

Sincerely,

Joe Haedrich
President





From your.name at pcm.bosch.de  Tue Sep  8 02:59:23 1998
From: your.name at pcm.bosch.de (your name)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:59:23 +0800
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809080955.LAA16121@frnext1a.fr.bosch.de>



Encrypted_Message=On 4 May 1998 02:57:07 GMT, in article <6ijaq3$bb1 at news1.panix.com>,
<The at NSA.sucks> Information Security (= Guy Polis <guy at panix.com>) wrote:
#   Guy Polis (guy at panix.com, eviljay at bway.net) is a pedophile child
#   molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers
#   after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography
#   JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet.

The poster's been awful quiet lately - did the feds arrest him?
Browser=Netscape:Mozilla/3.01 [de]C-NSCP  (WinNT; I)
Remedy=Tell the world





From apf2 at apf2.com  Tue Sep  8 04:29:01 1998
From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:29:01 +0800
Subject: Seed to clone himself, one way or another [CNN]
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980908212730.0069b90c@apf2.com>



>From: Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
>
>Hi,
>
>It seems that scientist in general may soon be forced to roam from country
>to country to practice their work.
>
>Shades of Neuromancer. I am more and more convinced that Gibson's book, and
>it's social commentary, is right on the mark.
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> X-within-URL: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9809/07/clone.seed.ap/
>
>>           CHICAGO PHYSICIST SAYS HE'LL CLONE HIMSELF WITH WIFE'S HELP
>>                                        
>>    Dr. Richard Seed Richard Seed   September 7, 1998
>>    Web posted at: 3:50 a.m. EDT (0750 GMT)
>>    
>>    BOSTON (AP) -- A physicist with three Harvard degrees but no medical
>>    license said he is ready to begin the first step toward immortality:
>>    he will clone himself.
>
>[text deleted]
>
>>    Seed has said that if Congress bans cloning, he will move his
>>    operation to Tijuana, Mexico.
>

But if the feds pull similar bullshit as with crypto work he'll have to
give up US citizenship to do the work. The regs for crypto appear to make
it such that even if I live permanently outside the US I can not work on or
produce crypto related products even if they are based on non-US
technologies. It seems that being a citizen of the US is less and less
attractive every day...

Albert P. Franco, II





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From: chargeit6 at usa.net (Merchant Services)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:29:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CREDIT CARD PROCESSING
Message-ID: <199809081528.LAA11834@compuserve.com>


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From Jen at evision.nac.net  Tue Sep  8 21:34:38 1998
From: Jen at evision.nac.net (Jen at evision.nac.net)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:34:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PEDIATRIC ADVISE -  FREE WEBSITE
Message-ID: <199809090432.AAA17439@evision.nac.net>


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A New Mother.










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From: qimoo at clinet.fi (qimoo at clinet.fi)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Advertise! Cheap, Quick & Easy!
Message-ID: <19980908353GAA9500@post.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr>




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From rdl at MIT.EDU  Tue Sep  8 07:32:28 1998
From: rdl at MIT.EDU (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:32:28 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
Message-ID: <tw71zpmhe9n.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>



> [gun control laws in other countries being even worse than the US]

Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for citizens.
It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
I miss my M1A.

I mostly have two classes of guns I'd like to have: air pistol, for
practice and competition, and military-style semiautomatic rifles, for
practice and long-term defense.  Self-defense handguns and shotguns
are somewhat optional.

A country like Switzerland seems ideal, at least as a citizen, given
the reserve requirements.  Mmmm, a nice Hammerli air pistol and
a shiny new HK PSG-1 would make me forget about the M1A I left behind, very
quickly.  Especially with a good daylight scope and an IR scope...  Only
$30k or so for the package with 10k rounds of national match ammo.
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://sof.mit.edu/rdl/		<-- down





From mah248 at nyu.edu  Tue Sep  8 07:39:34 1998
From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:39:34 +0800
Subject: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66...
In-Reply-To: <199809080109.UAA06813@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <35F5411A.A846BB4C@nyu.edu>



Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Here in Austin we have a local radio dj who does a public access show on
> various issue localy and nationaly, Alex Jones, who has put a piece on some
> sort of bio-weapon test that occurred in '66 in San Francisco. He is
> claiming that deaths resulted.
> 
> Anyone have a clue what he's talking about?

As far as I know, the only bio-weapon test that occured in San Francisco
was when they scattered some large volume of apparently harmless
bacteria over the city in order to find out what effect a bio-attack
would have on them, and to get an idea of what countermeasures are
useful, and of course, to test their own delivery systems. :)

I don't know what kind of bacteria they were, so I've no idea if they
were harmless or not.  Suffice to say that a bunch of people in San
Francisco think they weren't (harmless), and get upset about it
frequently.

It seems unlikely, however, that the few deaths that people have tried
to attribute to the bacteria were actually caused by them.  San
Francisco is a big city, with lots of people.  If the bacteria really
were dangerous, *manY* people would have died, rather than the handful
(10-15?) that did in fact die, for one reason or another.

Michael Hohensee





From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  8 08:27:53 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:27:53 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <tw71zpmhe9n.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <199809081522.LAA14823@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <tw71zpmhe9n.fsf at denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>, on 09/08/98 
   at 10:26 AM, Ryan Lackey <rdl at MIT.EDU> said:

>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for
>citizens. It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns
>are bad". I miss my M1A.

Well back when I lived in Israel during the early '80s everyone had guns,
and a lots of them. My landlord had a small armory in his bombshelter
(something ever home has). I do not know what the gun laws are there
concerning non-military citizens, but considering that everyone is in the
military this doesn't seem to be much of an issue (unless you are a
Palestinian).

Nice country to live, good climate (comparable to southern California),
friendly people, civilized country, strong European influence to the
culture (for obvious reasons), parliamentary form of government. Inflation
was *very* bad when I was there (I think only Italy & Argentina was worse)
hopefully this has improved.

I left at the end of '82 before all this crap with the Palestinians
started. I don't know what shape basic liberties have taken since I have
left. I imagine that after 50 years of continual war things are a little
more restrictive than what most Americans are accustom to.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cicho at free.polbox.pl  Tue Sep  8 08:55:48 1998
From: cicho at free.polbox.pl (cicho)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:55:48 +0800
Subject: wired on y2k
In-Reply-To: <199809080235.TAA23415@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <35f55163.1411866@193.59.1.1>



I read this piece in the print edition and wondered...
>F E A T U R E|Issue 6.08 - August 1998 
>The Y2K Solution: Run for Your Life!! 
> By Kevin Poulsen 

Not *the* Kevin Poulsen, is it?

('the', as in http://www.well.com/user/fine/journalism/jail.html
or http://www.catalog.com/kevin/scales.html)

.marek






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 09:35:42 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:35:42 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <tw71zpmhe9n.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>



At 7:26 AM -0700 9/8/98, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>> [gun control laws in other countries being even worse than the US]
>
>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for citizens.
>It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
>I miss my M1A.

Don't automatically assume Israel is good for gun ownership. If you're an
untermenschen, a schwarzen, a sand nigger, an Arab, you can't legally own a
gun. Unless you're one of the Trustees, i.e., a deputized member of the
PLO's military or police.

The Chosen People are of course encouraged to have fully automatic weapons.

(This is not a detailed elaboration of Israeli gun laws. Maybe even some
Jews are forbidden to have guns. Israel has a lot of laws. But I know that
"settlers" carry Uzi and suchlike openly, while Arabs in the same lands are
forbidden from even owning shotguns or .22s.)

Switzerland is also not what many think it is. While able-bodied men who
served in the military have weapons issued to them that they keep at home,
this does not necessarily imply gun ownership nirvana. For one thing, all
the guns are tracked. For another, visitors or temporary residents face the
usual surveillance state controls.

Don't count on there being Gun Show and Swap Meets, where folks trade .45s
and 9s and Uzis and AR-15s and M1As without benefit of notifying the
Supreme Ruler and His Minions. (Such as our Second Amendment says we can
do, until the commies took over in these Beknighted States.)

>I mostly have two classes of guns I'd like to have: air pistol, for
>practice and competition, and military-style semiautomatic rifles, for
>practice and long-term defense.  Self-defense handguns and shotguns
>are somewhat optional.

See above. Let us know if you find anyplace in the Caribbean which actually
allows these kinds of guns to be owned by the sheeple.


--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From xena at best.com  Tue Sep  8 10:36:58 1998
From: xena at best.com (Xena - Warrior Princess)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:36:58 +0800
Subject: "info on spooks"
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809081023001.29273-100000@shell16.ba.best.com>





The Internet Oracle has pondered your question deeply.
Your question was:

> 
> Maybe *you* can help, Mighty Oracle.
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:19:26 EDT
> From: XxxxXxxx at aol.com
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: tell me
> 
>  hola and good tidings 
>   send some info on spooks please 
>   i will be grateful
> 

And in response, thus spake the Oracle:

}
}   In a way, you have come to the right place, Supplicant.  Some of my best
} friends are spooks.  Generally, they like to be known as "The Intangible
} Ones", but that's a bit of pretentiousness on their parts.  "Ghoul",
} "ghost", "spirit", and "weird white smudge on film" all are appropriate
} names.
}   Some of their favorite haunts, if you will, tend to be different than
} what current culture dictates.  For example, spooks will not hang out in
} old houses.  Too many cobwebs, bugs, and general naughtiness.  Spooks are
} very sensitive creatures, and prefer to relax in libraries, arboretums,
} Newt Gingrich's bedroom -- places where nothing ever happens.
}   There's not much else to spooks, dear Supplicant.  They're really quite
} nice and friendly, and I recommend you make them a big steak dinner every
} once in a while.  Leave it out on the table, and make sure you tell me
} your address so I can come by... er, so I can notify the spooks.
} 
} You owe the Oracle some new potatoes to go with that steak.
} 





From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  8 10:42:05 1998
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:42:05 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks HyperArchive
In-Reply-To: <v0313030ab219b7376d3b@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980908103600.008469f0@m7.sprynet.com>



::
Anon-To: Ryan Lackey <ryan at arianrhod.systemics.ai>, Tim May <tcmay at got.net>


At 03:27 PM 9/7/98 -0400, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>Anguilla is actually a pretty reasonable choice as far as a place to
>spend a few years away from the US -- 7 000 people, many with a strong


Jul 7 1999

The US today launched a cruise missile strike against Anguilla, 
where Osama bin "Blowback" Laden was known, according to US National
Security officials, to be investing in an online gambling casino.



--Count of Monte Carlo









  








From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  8 10:42:58 1998
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:42:58 +0800
Subject: IP: Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of   Citizenship
In-Reply-To: <v0401173cb2186ae5e832@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980908101154.00853210@m7.sprynet.com>



At 11:01 AM 9/7/98 +0100, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>Let's wait and see whether AES will be genuinely exportable.
>
>M. K. Shen
>

Surely you jest.  The head AES honcho will send you (in .de) the CD of the
english
specs, but not the one with the code.  Like it matters.

They will continue playing games and misbehaving until punished.








  








From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep  8 10:58:54 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:58:54 +0800
Subject: wired on y2k
In-Reply-To: <199809080235.TAA23415@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <35F56F1A.652C@lsil.com>



> Scott has decided
> that the only real fix for the Y2K problem may be to pack up and move to
> this patch of land 75 miles from his San Diego home. "In the next year or
> so," he predicts, "the most common cocktail party chatter will be, 'What
> are you doing to prepare for Y2K?' But by then, it will be too late."
> 
Water? Met a reactor designer from Los Alamos once who lived in some
super but isolated place in the Sangre De Christos. He had to drill some
3K ft for water. VERY EXPENSIVE. Ever seen the Peoples Broadcasting
Service piece about the "Cadillac Desert"? Water is just another utility
here. All automated.





From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  8 11:21:14 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:21:14 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>
Message-ID: <199809081814.OAA17367@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 09:24 AM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>>
>>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for citizens.
>>It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
>>I miss my M1A.

>Don't automatically assume Israel is good for gun ownership. If you're an
>untermenschen, a schwarzen, a sand nigger, an Arab, you can't legally own
>a gun. Unless you're one of the Trustees, i.e., a deputized member of the
>PLO's military or police.

>The Chosen People are of course encouraged to have fully automatic
>weapons.

Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
their own actions.

They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
for the past 50 years.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

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From ryan at systemics.ai  Tue Sep  8 11:37:16 1998
From: ryan at systemics.ai (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:37:16 +0800
Subject: radio net
Message-ID: <E0zGSWY-0002wH-00@arianrhod.systemics.ai>



Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net (probably packet radio
relay) to relay small quantities of data in the event the telecommunications
infrastructure becomes unavailable (either technically or legally/politically/
militarily)?  There are existing packet relay nets, but in my experience
amateur radio people, especially in the US, are very willing to roll over
for the government at the slightest cause.

I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could
be done in a fairly turnkey fashion.  Exactly how to handle routing and
what protocol to use on the network is kind of an open question -- there
are a lot of solutions, none of them optimal.





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 11:44:24 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:44:24 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>
Message-ID: <v03130306b21b29f68511@[209.66.100.138]>



At 11:19 AM -0700 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
>Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
>their own actions.
>
>They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
>for the past 50 years.

We'll see who's whining after 2 million Zionists are consumed in the holy
fire that sweeps through Haifa and Tel Aviv.

Some Jews learned nothing from WWII.

Ironic that our Cypherpunks technology, including remailers, will help the
forces of liberation coordinate their attacks. On this point, Freeh and
Reno are completely correct, as I have been saying for years.


--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 12:22:45 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:22:45 +0800
Subject: Best & Brightest
Message-ID: <199809081935.OAA10317@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Sorry it took so long to get back on this, but...

I went and checked the book in the bookstore as I had a vague memory of
reading it in high school. Yep, it's the same book I read in '74 in a
government class.

David Halberstam's "Best and Brightest" was an excellent book on the Vietnam
War and the political wrangling that got us into it - *for 1972*.

This book has never been updated and near as I can find nobody has taken the
time to compare its line of argument and innuendo with the last 26 years of
data that has come to light. In particular it makes no mention, and because
of time travel limitations shouldn't be expected to, of the wealth of data
on the Cuban Missile Crisis and the Vietnam Conflict that has come to light
in the last 3 years because these classified materials weren't released yet.
This material is available via the Kennedy Library and the LBJ Library. It
includes internal memos and similar material that Halberstam did not have
any knowledge of. Of paritcular note to the thesis that some espouse that
Kennedy intended to increase the force level is a memo to the combined
chiefs of staff to remove ALL US forces from SE Asia. This memo was signed
just weeks before Kennedy was assassinated. Every indication is that LBJ
would have honored that had the Ya Drang Valley (the 7th Cavalry almost had
another Little Bighorn) not occurred in '64. After this tactical defeat (both
US and Viet forces claimed it as a strategic win) the US level of forces in
the area went through the roof.

This book is good for a historical perspective only, if you're interested
in understanding what happened from 1962 - 1963 with Kennedy and 1963+ with
LBJ then this is not the book to go to. It is simply out of date.

A general rule of thumb in doing historical research:

If the reference is not a primary and it is over 5 years old and has not
been updated then it is suspect.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 12:53:11 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:53:11 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809082004.PAA10445@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: radio net
> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:29:53 -0400
> From: Ryan Lackey <ryan at systemics.ai>

> Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net (probably packet radio
> relay) to relay small quantities of data in the event the telecommunications
> infrastructure becomes unavailable (either technically or legally/politically/
> militarily)?  There are existing packet relay nets, but in my experience
> amateur radio people, especially in the US, are very willing to roll over
> for the government at the slightest cause.
> 
> I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could
> be done in a fairly turnkey fashion.  Exactly how to handle routing and
> what protocol to use on the network is kind of an open question -- there
> are a lot of solutions, none of them optimal.

What sort of use do you see it being put to? One or two stations wouldn't be
worth the investment in money or time. Would it be some sort of private
channel or the backbone of a more complex enterprise? Do you see it being a
form of employment in the crash in that the operator could trade
communications access for vittles and ammo?

As to protocols, the standard IP packet software seems to work just fine (I
think it's something like KA9Q or some such). I've used it twice and it
worked like a champ.

Are you proposing to get a license or would it be strictly underground until
after the crash?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From fisherm at tce.com  Tue Sep  8 13:02:53 1998
From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 04:02:53 +0800
Subject: Zooko on JYA, cpunks, and surveillance (was: Re: Can't tell the kooks without a scorecard? Re: Monkey Wrenching the Echelon Engine)
Message-ID: <2C396693FBDED111AEF60000F84104A721BFA5@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>



Zane Lewkowicz writes:
>As far as i can tell, only people who 
>threaten feds with physical danger are getting busted.  
>Threatening feds with the possibility of a future society in 
>which their roles are obviated apparently doesn't work. 

This matches what I've seen.  Mr. Bell made the big mistake of directly
attacking the IRS (the mercaptan [sp?] attack).  I've had some dealings with
local government people on real estate issues (who have generally been
reasonably helpful), and the set of people who like practical jokes has a
(nearly?) null intersection with the set of people who go into government
service.  Especially when you do something to send people to the doctor
because of chemical-induced vomiting...

If Tim May gets picked up, I expect it to be a result of a Chinese Cultural
Revolution-type action (all intellectuals, all programmers, all engineers,
etc.).  As long as Tim isn't entrapped, he is probably pretty safe from
being picked up.  However, there's going to be a lot of changes in the near
future (e$, Y2K, Internet fall-out, biochemoelectronics, etc.), so I advise
that everyone batten down the hatches -- we're in for a stormy ride into a
[likely] glorious future.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is
'Don't Tread on Me'"





From rdl at MIT.EDU  Tue Sep  8 13:19:49 1998
From: rdl at MIT.EDU (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 04:19:49 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
Message-ID: <tw7lnnu747f.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>



> let us know if you find any places in the caribbean [which allow
> sheeple to have real guns]

AFAIK, none, unless you include "people who bribe the government of
some of these countries" as "sheeple".  International waters might work,
if you can find a flag which allows you to keep weapons on your ship,
which AFAIK is rare these days.  Some of the independent non-BDTs
like St. Kitts and Nevis, Antigua, etc. might be better for this than
Anguilla.

Anguilla has the benefit of being small and stable, such that you're less
likely to need a gun.  I seriously doubt if the 60 police officers on
Anguilla could be organized to do a Waco-style offensive in any case.
This isn't an ideal situation, but is pretty reasonable for now.

Israel is *definitely* not on my "list of places I'd go to avoid trouble",
no matter what kind of weaponry I were permitted by virtue of being
non-Arab and Western.  Tel Aviv being a political target for the 
Palestians, Jerusalem being a target with definite style points for
others, and Armageddon having additional style points for the first
private nuclear detonation -- three targets in one tiny country, oh joy.
I'd feel safer in Washington DC.

-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl at mit.edu
http://sof.mit.edu/rdl/		





From rwright at adnetsol.com  Tue Sep  8 13:35:06 1998
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 04:35:06 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Radio Activists March on DC, Oct 4 & 5
Message-ID: <199809082033.NAA28205@bsd.adnetsol.com>



------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Mon, 7 Sep 1998 06:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
From:          gregruggiero at earthlink.net (New York Free Media Alliance)
Subject:       Radio Activists March on DC, Oct 4 & 5
To:            iaj-futuremedia at igc.org

Dear Supporters of Community Media and Free Speech,

You may be aware that the Federal Communications Commission
has recently intensified it's assault on unlicensed micropower
radio stations.  In response to this campaign and the government's
longstanding ban on low-power radio, a national movement has emerged
to proliferate microbroadcasting, and win constitutional protection to
broadcast at the community level.

We invite you to  show your support for
community access to the airwaves. Join us in Washington, DC
on Sunday, October 4  for a micropower radio conference,
and on Monday October 5 for a march on FCC and  NAB headquarters.

Workshops & information will be offered on how to start a radio
station and acquire the necessary equipment.

Please pass this on to people who might be interested, especially
those who don't have access to the internet.

See you in Washington.

Thanks,

Greg Ruggiero
New York Free Media Alliance
http://artcon.rutgers.edu/papertiger/nyfma/

"Where there is even a pretense of democracy, communications are at
its heart." --Noam Chomsky


--------------------------------------------

SHOWDOWN AT THE FCC!

 FREE RADIO ACTIVISTS MARCH ON WASHINGTON TO
 CONFRONT THE GLOBAL  MEDIA MONOPOLY AND
THEIR MARIONETTES IN GOVERNMENT!

Sunday, October 4, 1998
Monday, October 5, 1998
Washington, DC

Calling all media activists, microbroadcasters and people for a
democratic media:

 Come to DC for the first national mobilization for free radio.
 Microbroadcasters from around the country will gather for
 two days to share radio skills, organize alliances, speak out
 to the media and protest at the FCC and NAB buildings,
 culminating in a live broadcast straight into the offices of the
people working so hard to shut us down. Free Radio Berkeley, Radio
Mutiny, Steal This Radio and other microstations have all broadcast
live in public and challenged the FCC to shut them down in the light
of day, in front of the press and the Feds have never dared to show
their face- this time, we're going to take it right to their doorstep
and tell them that if they're so sure that their dumb law is worth
enforcing, then the Chairman should come down from the 8th floor and
put the cuffs on us himself.

There will also be workshops to help new folks start
stations, appointments will be made to lobby congress
people, and press events will be held to show the true,
diverse face of the microbroadcasting movement.

Schedule

                       Sunday,
                       10-12 workshops (to be announced)
                       12-1 lunch
                       1-3 workshops (to be announced)
                       3-5 speakout
                       5-6:30 dinner
                       7pm party/puppet making for demonstration
  Monday

 10:30 am MARCH AND PUPPET PARADE
  starts at Dupont Circle, goes to the Federal
 Communications Commission building, and then marches
on to confront the National Association of Broadcasters.
During these protests, we will flip the giant free speech
switches, turn on our transmitters and strike a blow against
the meta-marionettes: A giant puppet of General Electric
and Corporate America, which will in turn control a slightly
smaller puppet of the National Association of Broadcasters,
which in turn will operate a smaller puppet of the FCC,
which in turn will be trying to stamp out microbroadcasters
and our free speech rights. These demonstrations will also
include a number of sneaky surprises that are so cool that
we can't even mention them here!

1:30pm

meetings set up with people's congressional
representatives for lobbying

4pm press event:

What Can a Black Panther, a Free Market Think Tank
Policy Analyst, an Anarchist Feminist,   A Radio Engineer,
A Public Health Worker and a Discount
Store Owner Agree Upon? IT'S TIME TO LEGALIZE
MICROBROADCASTING!

 So what's YOUR excuse not to come to the most
excellent weekend of mayhem ever? Nothing. Then good-
we'll see you there.

Bring a sleeping bag, cameras and recording devices,
vehicles, some money to help this all come off, questions
for the experts on pirate station operations, puppet
materials, signs and banners, transmitters, AND ALL OF
YOUR FRIENDS!

contact info:
email: petetridish at hotmail.com
phone:Pete tri Dish 215-474-6459 or
          Amanda at   202-518-5644
                       p.o.box 179,
                       College Park, MD 20741-0179

**************************************************

                                             NEW YORK
Media for Change           <<< FREE MEDIA >>>     Changing the Media
                                              ALLIANCE

                             listserve: nyfreemedia at tao.ca
                               voicemail: (212) 969-8636
           website: http://artcon.rutgers.edu/papertiger/nyfma

**************************************************



=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://ross.adnetsol.com
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 14:35:36 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 05:35:36 +0800
Subject: Cypher Freedom Fighters
In-Reply-To: <2C396693FBDED111AEF60000F84104A721BFA5@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <v03130307b21b4f0b3a10@[209.66.100.138]>



(I've changed the thread title to something simple, replacing the "RE:
Zooko on JYA, cpunks, and surveillance (was: Re: Can't tell the kooks
without a scorecard? Re: Monkey Wrenching the Echelon Engine)" title.)


At 11:56 AM -0700 9/8/98, Fisher Mark wrote:
>Zane Lewkowicz writes:
>>As far as i can tell, only people who
>>threaten feds with physical danger are getting busted.
>>Threatening feds with the possibility of a future society in
>>which their roles are obviated apparently doesn't work.
>
>This matches what I've seen.  Mr. Bell made the big mistake of directly
>attacking the IRS (the mercaptan [sp?] attack).  I've had some dealings with
>local government people on real estate issues (who have generally been
>reasonably helpful), and the set of people who like practical jokes has a
>(nearly?) null intersection with the set of people who go into government
>service.  Especially when you do something to send people to the doctor
>because of chemical-induced vomiting...

Ditto in spade for me. To wit, if I caught someone dumping mercaptin under
my door I'd likely be so enraged I'd empty a clip into him right then and
there...and I'd consider myself justified.

Bell "crossed the line" into committing prosecutable offenses in more than
just the alleged mercaptin attack. There was also the matter of working
under multiple faked Social Security numbers.

(No, I'm not saying this was immoral. Just illegal. And those who do the
crime should not be surprised to have to do the time.)

The issue of whether he threatened IRS officials at their home by having
their home addresses is unproven to me. Compiling such lists is perfectly
legal.

The metal chaff he supposedly wanted to drop down an IRS building
airshaft...well, it seems unworkable.

And, as many of us have noted, their is zero chance a working AP system was
deployed, absent several of the building blocks. So AP could not in itself
have been a threat.

But clearly his AP literature aroused much interest by various arms of law
enforcement. And once arouse, they pretty much had to find something to get
him on. His earlier conviction or plea on chemical and/or drug charges
meant they were looking for chemicals. And they found them.

Plus, recall that Bell bragged to his friends that he'd gotten revenge
against a lawyer he didn't like, and against the IRS.


>If Tim May gets picked up, I expect it to be a result of a Chinese Cultural
>Revolution-type action (all intellectuals, all programmers, all engineers,
>etc.).  As long as Tim isn't entrapped, he is probably pretty safe from
>being picked up.  However, there's going to be a lot of changes in the near
>future (e$, Y2K, Internet fall-out, biochemoelectronics, etc.), so I advise
>that everyone batten down the hatches -- we're in for a stormy ride into a
>[likely] glorious future.

I don't hide my political views, nor my support of various interesting
technologies. My actions are fully protected by the Bill of Rights, even if
various unconstitutional restrictions on mys speech and funding habits have
been recently passed.

I expect the chickens to come home to roost...meaning, some nerve gas or
biological attacks on government, the nuking of at least one major city,
and possibly the driving of the Zionists into the sea (figuratively
speaking, as more literally they'll probably be hacked to death by Arabs,
gassed by neighboring states, and possibly incinerated with ex-Soviet
nukes).

Chickens coming home to roost. The patriot movement in the U.S. is gaining
strength every day, though it is going to ground. (Which makes strong
crypto tools much more interesting and important to them.) I expect they
may strike at various targets as Y2K unfolds.

It is a glorious thing for our technologies to be spreading into the hands
of those who can do so much.

--Tim May


"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  8 15:36:25 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:36:25 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03130306b21b29f68511@[209.66.100.138]>
Message-ID: <199809082230.SAA21185@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03130306b21b29f68511@[209.66.100.138]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 11:41 AM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>>Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
>>Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
>>their own actions.
>>
>>They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
>>for the past 50 years.

>We'll see who's whining after 2 million Zionists are consumed in the holy
>fire that sweeps through Haifa and Tel Aviv.

While you may gleefully look forward to such a day, need I remind you that
it will be more than the Jews that go up in flames. Israel has a nice
little stockpile of weapons and are not shy about using them. Any major
attack against Israel is liable to cause the entire Middle East turned
into one large glass bowl.

More than likely Israel will make use of a pre-emptive strike before
anyone gets close to finishing their weapons let alone launching them (I
was there when Israel launched their attack against the Iraq Breeder
Reactor the French were so kind to build for them).

>Some Jews learned nothing from WWII.

Actually they learned quite a bit. They will *never* be herded into cattle
cars and shipped off to the gas chambers again. They may eventually fall
to the forces of darkness but they will do so fighting.

>Ironic that our Cypherpunks technology, including remailers, will help
>the forces of liberation coordinate their attacks. On this point, Freeh
>and Reno are completely correct, as I have been saying for years.

forces of liberation? Lets see, Jews emigrate to Trans-Jordan, *buy* land
from the arabs living there, and live peaceably. The British decide to
divide up this area between Jordan, Palestine, and Israel. The Grand Mufti
declares a "holy war" against the Jews in which the Palestinians and
several neighboring countries join. The Arabs loose, the Jews win. They
continue this war for the next 50 years with various periods of
cease-fire. Every time they loose.

What the Arabs have attempted to do is finish the job the Nazi's started.
Only the Jews are not going to go down without a fight. The continuing
conflict in the Middle East has not been a battle of liberation but a war
of ethnic cleansing and extermination against the Jews.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: One man's Windows are another man's walls.

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From kamikaze23 at juno.com  Tue Sep  8 15:37:43 1998
From: kamikaze23 at juno.com (M I T)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:37:43 +0800
Subject: Any good hacking sites?
Message-ID: <19980908.182213.2926.0.kamikaze23@juno.com>



hey all,

any1 know of any good hacking sites that teach u the basics and stuff?

also, any1 here into AOL hacking???

thanx,
~Fallen Angel

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From petro at playboy.com  Tue Sep  8 15:55:41 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:55:41 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>
Message-ID: <v0311070eb21b6226b742@[206.189.103.244]>



At 1:19 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>, on 09/08/98
>   at 09:24 AM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:
>
>>>
>>>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>>>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for
>>>citizens.
>>>It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
>>>I miss my M1A.
>
>>Don't automatically assume Israel is good for gun ownership. If you're an
>>untermenschen, a schwarzen, a sand nigger, an Arab, you can't legally own
>>a gun. Unless you're one of the Trustees, i.e., a deputized member of the
>>PLO's military or police.
>
>>The Chosen People are of course encouraged to have fully automatic
>>weapons.
>
>Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
>Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
>their own actions.
>
>They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
>for the past 50 years.

	Crap, the U.N. (what was that about "United?") started the shit
when they ham-fisted decided that the "homeland" the "Jews" needed was land
considered holy by the Moslems AND Christians, and ignored the fact that
the jews were just as racist and bigoted as a group as the Kikes that had
been trying to cook them.

	Israel was a DUMB idea, like mixing Nitric acid and Glycerol in a
blender. Anyone who thought it wouldn't end in violence was a total fool,
anyone who thinks that the Powers That Be want it cool down is a bigger
fool.



petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  8 15:56:14 1998
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:56:14 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980908153726.00816100@m7.sprynet.com>



	
	
When the American government eventually reveals the [full range of]
reconnaissance systems developed by this nation, the public will learn of
space achievements every bit as impressive as the Apollo Moon landings.




http://www.nro.odci.gov/speeches/grab-698.html

Prepared Remarks at the Naval Research Laboratory 75th Anniversary Event 

By Mr. Keith Hall, Director of the National Reconnaissance Office

17 June 1998 






  








From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Sep  8 16:12:23 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:12:23 +0800
Subject: Toto, AP and Jim Bell? (Re: Space Aliens Return my Drugs!)
In-Reply-To: <199809050903.KAA02997@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <199809082055.VAA14004@server.eternity.org>




Recently I speculated that Toto may have been locked up due to some
connection with Jim Bell:

I wrote:
> I've been searching my cp archives trying to figure out if there has
> been any connection between Toto and Jim Bell/AP, as Alia Johnson
> said that she thought Toto was locked up due to posts about AP.

someone who has been in contact with Jim Bell tells me that Jim did
not know Toto.

Adam





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 16:18:18 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:18:18 +0800
Subject: Doing nothing wrong...
Message-ID: <199809082334.SAA11809@einstein.ssz.com>



It occurred to me that a great comeback to:

If you don't have anything to hide you shouldn't mind being monitored by the
police.

To which the responce should be:

Ok, since the police don't have anything to hide they shouldn't mind being
monitored by the citizens.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From lazlototh at hempseed.com  Tue Sep  8 16:20:58 1998
From: lazlototh at hempseed.com (Lazlo Toth)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:20:58 +0800
Subject: Mitnick wants cyphertext; gov't wants keys
Message-ID: <v04011709b21b77ad42e7@[207.22.4.32]>



>http://www.wired.com/news/print_version/politics/story/14855.html
>
>Wired News:
>Hacker Can't Get Access
>By Arik Hesseldahl
>
>8:35pm  4.Sep.98.PDT
>
>The epic legal wrangling in the Kevin Mitnick case took a new turn last
>week when the accused hacker lost an appeal  to access certain encrypted
>data that his attorneys say could help him.
>The data, seized by the FBI from Mitnick's computer when he was arrested in
>1995, could contain evidence that could prove him innocent of some of the
>charges against him, according to his defense.
>In its encrypted form, the data is useless to prosecutors, who may have
>tried to decode it and failed, said Donald C. Randolph, the Santa Monica,
>California, attorney defending Mitnick.
>....
>"We told the judge that giving him access to those files was like giving
>someone access to a locked safe that might contain a gun," Painter said.
>"[Mitnick's attorneys] claimed in court that the data might contain
>exculpatory evidence but offered no further explanation."
>Greg Vincent, Randolph's associate on the case, said that under federal
>rules, Mitnick should be given access to all the evidence against him, and
>that by denying such access, the government is opening itself up to losing
>an appeal should Mitnick be convicted.
>Vincent also said the government was willing to give access to the
>encrypted files, provided that Mitnick hand over the password. This, said
>Vincent, would violate Mitnick's Fifth Amendment rights against
>self-incrimination.         
>Painter confirmed that the files had not been decrypted by the government.    





From petro at playboy.com  Tue Sep  8 16:32:19 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:32:19 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03130306b21b29f68511@[209.66.100.138]>
Message-ID: <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>



At 2:44 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>What the Arabs have attempted to do is finish the job the Nazi's started.

	Bullshit.

	I don't care much for palestinians, mostly for cultural reasons,
but they were, in the begininging not interested in killing every jew in
the world, they may not have liked the Northern European Jews, but from
what I've seen, there wasn't any love lost the other way.

	Personally, I hope they BOTH nuke each other off the god damn
planet and take all that fucking oil with them.

>Only the Jews are not going to go down without a fight. The continuing
>conflict in the Middle East has not been a battle of liberation but a war
>of ethnic cleansing and extermination against the Jews.

	No, more like a get off our fucking land.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 16:44:41 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:44:41 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809082359.SAA12044@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:17:45 -0500
> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism

> planet and take all that fucking oil with them.

I wonder how the new realization that the calthrate deposits in the ocean
bottem off the continental shelf make fine fuel and it's replenishable and
may be of a larger quantity than the oil reserves will effect the power
balance.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Sep  8 17:02:45 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:02:45 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
Message-ID: <199809082346.TAA31245@camel8.mindspring.com>



Thanks to anonymous we offer the arrest warrant and
complaint against Carl Edward Johnson:

   http://jya.com/usa-v-cej-wc.htm  (23K)

List Cypherpunks is spotlighted by the IRS complainant,
Jeff Gordon, who made Jim Bell famous. The list is 
quoted, logged, tracked, and cited for its hosting alleged death 
threat messages against federal officials, which were
PGP-authenticated and -decoded, and their style and content 
assessed for identity of the author, along with other allegations 
by the RCMP on what Carl may or may not have done up north 
and by the Secret Service on Carl may or may not have said 
out west.

We have also been told that Carl is known as "The King
of Country Porn" among admiring fans of his music.

Whether this has anything to do with the little-known person 
we're seeking information about is a mystery.







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 17:06:42 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:06:42 +0800
Subject: Spelling error...
Message-ID: <199809090019.TAA12278@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

It's clathrate, not calthrate...

Sorry.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 17:40:57 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:40:57 +0800
Subject: usa-v-cej-wc.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809090053.TAA12423@einstein.ssz.com>



Notice: mucho text deleted.

Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://jya.com/usa-v-cej-wc.htm

>    criminal threats to kill, injure, obstruct, impede, threaten and
>    intimidate IRS

>    and other Government employees. I have also conducted numerous
>    investigations involving the use of computers and the Internet. Since

>    Western District of Washington. In the investigation of Mr. Bell, it
>    was discovered that he had posted a plan (titled "Assassination
>    Politics") on the Internet, offering users of the Internet a method
>    for anonymously funding the assassinations of IRS and other Government

>    Internet group known as the "Cypherpunks." During the investigation of

This guy has experience with the Internet and doesn't know the difference
between a group and a mailing list, what a maroon.

>    Bell I noted that Bell exchanged both private and public e-mail
>    messages with an unidentified person using the name "Toto."

Implying Bell was under surveillance.

>    residence. Shortly thereafter, a member of the Cypherpunks group
>    stated via the Internet that he had obtained a copy of the warrant and
>    return, and publicly posted them on the Internet.

And the point is?

>    Bell was arrested and charged with Corruptly Obstructing and Impeding

So I can non-corruptly obstruct and impede?

>    4. On June 23, 1997, an anonymous message was posted to the
>    Cypherpunks Internet mailing list. [A "mailing list" consists of the

Well, finaly got the terms right.

>    5. Based on my training and experience, I know that "Bot" is a slang
>    term for an automated computer program. I also know that "e$" and
>    "eCa$h" are slang terms for electronic or digital cash, which was a
...
>    maker or indorser [as written]. [By analogy, digital cash is like a
>    digital "poker chip" issued by a particular casino.]

Oh well, I knew he couldn't keep it straight.

>    6. On September 4, 1997, a second message involving "Dead Lucky" was
>    anonymously posted to the Cypherpunks group. This message stated in

This guy keeps using 'group' instead of 'mailing list', there is the
potential implication of conspiracy here...I wouldn't be surprised if just
about all of us weren't under surveillance at this point.

>    8. On December 9, 1997, an anonymous message was posted to the
>    Cypherpunks Internet mail group with the subject listed as "Encrypted
>    InterNet DEATH THREAT!!! / ATTN: Ninth District Judges / PASSWORD:
>    sog"[.] The body of the message was encrypted with the publicly
>    available encryption software PGP, and was initially unreadable. Using
>    PGP software and the password shown in the subject line of the
>    message, I was able to decrypt the message, which contained a
>    rambling, five-page statement, including the following:

>      I can also be tied into Jim Bell's Worldwide Conspiracy to
>      assassinate government authorities, through my implementation of an
>      Assassination Bot ..."

See I told you there was a conspiracy buried in there somewhere!

>    9. I noted that this message contained a PGP digital signature. From
>    my training and experience, I am aware that this digital signature is
>    used as a way to authenticate digital documents to make sure that they
>    are authored by the purported author and that no one has tampered with
>    them. When I checked the signature using only PGP software, the PGP
>    program was unable to identify it.

>    Only July 1, 1998, Royal Canadian
>    Mounted Police (RCMP) Investigator Steve Foster provided me with a PGP
>    "Secret Key Ring" which he stated he had obtained from a computer
>    which Canadian Customs authorities had seized from an individual by
>    the name of CARL EDWARD JOHNSON. [A "secret key ring" is a
>    user-generated code which allows for the encryption (and later
>    authentication) of computer-generated documents.] When I checked the
>    digital signature on the Internet death threat using the PGP software
>    and JOHNSON'S secret key ring, the computer identified the signature
>    as one of the signature keys stored in JOHNSON'S computer. Because
>    both the "private" and "public" portions of the "key" were stored on
>    JOHNSON'S computer, the message can be authenticated as having been
>    generated by the person who possessed this "secret key" and knew the
>    correct password. In other words, only the person possessing the
>    secret key found on JOHNSON'S computer could have generated the "death
>    threat" message.

>    10. I have also spoken by phone with Special Agent Jeremy Sheridan of
>    the United States Secret Service. Sheridan told me that on July 31,
>    1998, he located and interviewed Carl JOHNSON at 1800 West Magee, in
>    Tucson, Arizona. The address belongs to a Linda Reed, who, according
>    to Canadian police authorities, is a friend of JOHNSON'S. During this
>    interview JOHNSON admitted that he often wrote on the Internet and
>    among the names he used were Toto, C.J. Parker, and TruthMonger.
>    Johnson also stated that he had been using the Internet account of
>    Linda Reed. Sheridan showed JOHNSON a decrypted copy of the December
>    9, 1997 Internet message entitled "Encrypted InterNet DEATH THREAT!!!
>    / ATTN: Ninth district Court Judges / PASSWORD: sog." JOHNSON
>    acknowledge that he wrote it. JOHNSON also stated that he had
>    significant psychological problems.

Probably not a wise move, don't know about psychological problems but it
certainly demonstrates a lack of intelligence.

>    bomb that was discovered in the basement of the Estevan courthouse on
>    June 3, 1998. Block advised me that Carl JOHNSON has been formally
>    charged with placing the bomb and that a warrant for his arrest has
>    been issued in Canada. Block advised me that he believes that JOHNSON
>    fled to the United States after placing the bomb in the Estevan
>    courthouse.

That's impressive if true.

>    15. On June 10, 1998, an anonymous message was posted to the
>    Cypherpunks Internet group. In the message, it is stated that the
>    bomber "placed the bomb before embarking on a middle-leg of the

So that's why he came to Austin?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph  Tue Sep  8 18:12:07 1998
From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:12:07 +0800
Subject: interchange...
In-Reply-To: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F83CA@MSX11002>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980909085956.2287A-100000@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>



I will be interchanging the meaning of cryptography with encryption, 
will this be alright or will it only confuse my listeners?

Thank you.


It's me Bernie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some people they might say that I'm hard to get to know.
I go my own sweet way, well that maybe so.
Something about the crowd that makes me walk alone. 
I never had a need in me to be the party's life and soul.


metaphone at altavista.net
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````






From WGKOPP at aol.com  Tue Sep  8 18:39:15 1998
From: WGKOPP at aol.com (WGKOPP at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:39:15 +0800
Subject: Movie/Research Research
Message-ID: <22a37099.35f5db02@aol.com>



Hi, 

I'm a screenwriter in Los Angeles and I'm currently working on a psychological
thriller. I'm trying to research how a particular thing could be done, and I
cannot seem to find precisely what I'm looking for. You are surely highly
learned individual, and I wonder if I could pick your brains for a moment.

Here is the situation I need help with:-

The "villians" are charging people $15 (from their credit card - or another
source) to download or "watch"  a video clip of highly illicit material, from
a specific website.
Our "protagonist" has to stop these "video's" and the people behind them, but,
they cannot seem to trace them, or where the funds are going. 

How can this be done? How can we realistically make it so that origins and/or
location & authors of the website are untraceable. Also, that the funds are
untraceable.

The only way our protagonist can find the villains, is by revealing a terrible
secret from his past, something he's tried desperately to forget and put
behind him. He eventually does catch the villains, but not electronically. He
catches them, by reliving his painful past.

Do you have any idea's?

If so, I'd be most grateful if you could share them with me. Once the
screenplay is completed and hopefully sold, I'm sure the very least I could
offer is a film credit. 

Yours,

Wayne Kopping





From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 18:44:03 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:44:03 +0800
Subject: internet monitoring, UK
Message-ID: <199809090136.SAA14290@netcom13.netcom.com>




------- Forwarded Message

From: "ama-gi ISPI" <offshore at email.msn.com>
To: <Undisclosed.Recipients at majordomo.pobox.com>
Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 4.25:UK Police May Soon Tap Your Email & Internet Use At Will
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:16:50 -0700

ISPI Clips 4.25:UK Police May Soon Tap Your Email & Internet Use At Will
News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI)
Tuesday September 8, 1998
ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This From: The Independent Network, Monday September 7, 1998
http://www.independent.co.uk

The PC in your mailbox:
The police may soon be allowed to read your email and check your Internet
use at will.
http://www.independent.co.uk/net/980907ne/index.html

By
Paul Lavin

When you drop an envelope in a red pillar-box, you walk away confident that
your mail will not be read by anyone except the addressee. However, when
you send an email, it might be wise to reflect on the differences.

According to the organisation Internet Freedom, an agreement being
negotiated between the UK's internet service providers (ISPs) and the
police will open the email of the UK's eight million Internet users to
scrutiny without debate in Parliament or oversight by the courts or the
Home Secretary.

British police are said to be close to reaching an agreement with ISPs that
will enable them to monitor customers' emails and web usage logs. Chris
Ellison of Internet Freedom, says: "Following a series of meetings between
the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and Internet industry
representatives, we understand that both groups have stated a willingness
to reach a 'memorandum of understanding' about implementing police access
to private data held by ISPs."

According to David Kennedy, chairman of the Internet Service Providers
Association, that is a serious overstatement of the discussions. However,
he admits that the UK's ISPs are trying to avoid being flooded by court
orders or having the police cart off critical servers for evidence. He
says: "We are talking to law enforcement representatives to find a way to
work with them within the legal framework that exists. All members of our
association take the view that emails are private."

As with the understanding between the Metropolitan Police and the ISPs over
"banned" Usenet newsgroups and the closing down of web sites that may
breach the law, the significance of such an agreement is that any such
police activity may not be subjected to judicial review or legal
constraint. Detective Chief Superintendent Keith Ackerman, chairman of the
ACPO's computing crimes sub-committee, says: "We want to ensure the
criminal doesn't take best advantage of the Internet, without requiring the
Government to use the sledgehammer of regulation. However, we are not
looking for the ability to go on fishing expeditions."

The ISPs know that they are stuck in the middle, according to Keith
Mitchell, chairman of Linx, a partnership of large ISPs. He says: "To
divulge private email even under duress would be commercial suicide for an
ISP. In some circumstances it would constitute a crime."

Nonetheless, mistakes happen and there are well-known cases where the
police have been persuasive. Mitchell says: "The current laws do not
adequately protect ISPs or private individuals. We will be active in
seeking responsive changes from Parliament."

While there are undoubtedly individuals who use the Internet's email and
worldwide web for nefarious purposes, the vast majority of people who use
email and the web for personal and business communications have an
expectation of privacy. And law-abiding citizens who wholeheartedly support
the goals of law enforcement agencies may nevertheless feel uneasy about
giving them carte blanche over email.

America Online has been quite vocal in its opposition to opening the doors
to the police short of a court order. Many ISPs agree. Julie Hatch,
marketing communications director of Easynet, says:"We do not allow anyone
to access our customers' email without a court order.

"It makes no difference if it is an estranged wife or a suspicious business
partner or anyone else, we would not divulge a subscriber's private email
unless we were presented with a court order. This is in accordance with our
terms and conditions.

"Our business is also subject to restrictions imposed by the Data
Protection Act (DPA), and in any situation we would certainly abide by
those rules. So unless a subscriber's actions are illegal, you can say that
email is confidential."

The DPA provides scanty protection to email users, however.

While the Act has aspects that protect the quality and use of information
held in computer systems, disclosure can be afforded by a compliant ISP by
simply including appropriate language in the small print of their terms and
conditions. Data may be revealed to law enforcement officials as long as
the subscriber is notified.

Easynet's assurances highlight the differences between ISPs that are
classified as telecoms providers, protected from feeling the long arm of
the law by a regulatory framework, and those that are merely private
businesses unaccountable to anyone but their owners and governed solely by
their contracts with subscribers.

As well as Easynet, UK ISPs that are regulated as telecoms providers
include BT Internet and Demon, which is now part of Scottish Telecom.

Smaller ISPs are more vulnerable to the persuasive demands of the
police.They have no legally protected right of privacy and any redress for
email disclosure would only be for breach of contract.

Furthermore, most ISPs now include in their terms and conditions a
requirement that the subscriber bear the expense of any legal costs
resulting from their use of the service. This could lead to a complaining
subscriber having to bear the costs of both sides of a lawsuit against an
ISP even if they won.

The most serious aspect of this potential agreement between the police and
ISPS is, according to critics, the absence of legal safeguards. In order to
tap telephones, the police need the permission of the Home Secretary and
must justify violating the privacy of a suspect. It is not clear from the
law whether tapping a telephone and tapping into an email exchange are the
same thing.

Chris Ellison says: "This is what is so dangerous about the new culture of
private regulation and moral responsibility. ISPs now operate in a moral
climate which insists on limitations for freedom of speech. Any material
that causes offence - especially to children and ethnic minorities - is
regularly removed. ISPs have now embraced this self-censorship credo and
are willing to set themselves up as moral arbiters of internet content,
filtering out anything that they feel may be illegal."

Without public debate or scrutiny by Parliament, the police are likely to
gain, as Liz Parratt from the organisation Liberty puts it, "a snoopers'
charter for the Internet". Ordinary users will have little legal protection
or redress against police monitoring of their communications. This trend
could render the Internet less private and more regulated than any other
communications medium.

"If nothing else, these discussions have demonstrated what self-regulation
really means: ISPs undertaking the role of publicly unaccountable
instruments of law enforcement."

Email is not like a letter in an envelope; it is more like a postcard. Just
as you would not put some messages on a postcard, you should think before
you use email for your most private communications. While the legality and
desirability of the any agreement between ACPO and the ISPs is highly
debatable, anyone interested in maintaining their privacy on the Internet
must take responsibility for their own actions.

The agreement between ACPO and ISPs will be the subject of three seminars:
22 September in Edinburgh, 8 October in London and 27 October in
Manchester. Additional details can be found at
http://www.linx.net/misc/acposeminar.html .


- --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------
ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from
all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international
newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip
does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion
by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research
and educational purposes only.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study
of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a daily bases
(approx. 4 - 8 clips per day) send the following message  "Please
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The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small
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ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research
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with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise
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But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and
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------- End of Forwarded Message





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 18:45:09 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:45:09 +0800
Subject: Movie/Research Research (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809090201.VAA12886@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: WGKOPP at aol.com
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:33:54 EDT
> Subject: Movie/Research Research

> The "villians" are charging people $15 (from their credit card - or another
> source) to download or "watch"  a video clip of highly illicit material, from
> a specific website.
> Our "protagonist" has to stop these "video's" and the people behind them, but,
> they cannot seem to trace them, or where the funds are going. 
> 
> How can this be done? How can we realistically make it so that origins and/or
> location & authors of the website are untraceable. Also, that the funds are
> untraceable.

You'd need to use something like an eternity server or a data haven. These
allow one to obtain information from an unknown 3rd party based on a
distributed network of servers and search engines.

All transactions of e$ would need to go through an anonymous remailer of
some sort that interfaced to a suitable bank handlding EFT's via the
Internet.

The web surfing could be implimented via a CROWDS style mechanism.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From demona at demona.doldrums.dyn.ml.org  Tue Sep  8 18:46:09 1998
From: demona at demona.doldrums.dyn.ml.org (demona at demona.doldrums.dyn.ml.org)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:46:09 +0800
Subject: (fwd) ppdd - encrypted filesystem - kernel patch and support progs.
Message-ID: <199809082143.RAA01758@demona.doldrums.dyn.ml.org>



-- forwarded message --
Path: nntp.net-link.net!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail
From: Allan Latham <alatham at ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce
Subject: ppdd - encrypted filesystem - kernel patch and support progs.
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Tue,  8 Sep 1998 08:38:12 GMT
Organization: Flexsys
Lines: 48
Approved: linux-announce at news.ornl.gov (Mikko Rauhala)
Message-ID: <pycola.905243893.18924 at laulujoutsen.pc.helsinki.fi>
Reply-To: alatham at flexsys-group.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: laulujoutsen.pc.helsinki.fi
Old-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 14:43:19 +0200
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.os.linux.announce
	iQCVAgUBNfTs+lrUI/eHXJZ5AQEL7QQAm4TJb/hig4GSK4jpwd2PhuA8IKynybEF
	L+5ki9aYooX3Je/LdyvHVeg9kFL0IM8qdYNK01W6jJDqscoM4Hlp8KstxmpIDn1v
	OTBF9AbX4HQKUKO3J1UcNn+J89WZN/lmSB9lcgnJ6YAaKWpAYPVUFaoOoTPgHTg4
	ITpeWxe/v9s=
	=w014
Xref: nntp.net-link.net comp.os.linux.announce:1426

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


ppdd is an advanced encrypted file system for i386 Linux only.

It is used in a similar way to the loop device and offers simplicity and
speed plus full strength encryption (128 bit).

The design takes into consideration the fact that data on disc has a
long lifetime and that an attacker may have the matching plaintext to
much of the cyphertext.

A combination of master/working pass phrases offers enhanced security
for backup copies.

Current status is BETA and comments on the
implemenation and underlying crypography are most welcome.

It consists of a kernel patch plus support programs and is intended
for users with enough knowledge to compile the kernel, setup lilo,
partition disks etc. It is not for absolute beginners or "non technical"
users just yet.

Available from: http://pweb.de.uu.net/flexsys.mtk

Package is ppdd-0.4.tgz, pgp signature is also available from same url.

Allan Latham <alatham at flexsys-group.com>



- -- 
This article has been digitally signed by the moderator, using PGP.
http://www.iki.fi/mjr/cola-public-key.asc has PGP key for validating signature.
Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: linux-announce at news.ornl.gov
PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION.
This group is archived at http://www.iki.fi/mjr/linux/cola.html

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=K4sO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- end of forwarded message --





From emc at wire.insync.net  Tue Sep  8 18:47:38 1998
From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:47:38 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199809082346.TAA31245@camel8.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199809090140.UAA29195@wire.insync.net>




> Thanks to anonymous we offer the arrest warrant and
> complaint against Carl Edward Johnson:

I conclude:

A. There actually exist federal investigators who have nothing
   better to do with their lives than read the complete writings
   of the Performance Artists Sometimes Known as "Toto," and
   engage in endless mental masturbation over the hidden messages
   they imagine to be contained therein. 

B. When writing parody on the subject of AP, it is best not to 
   employ the names of actual federal slackers, lest the clueless
   investigators actually believe them to be targeted in some fashion. 

The part where he explains digital cash and how he clicked on the AP
Web Form almost rises to the AOL level of stupidity.  I'm amazed Arjen
Lenstra isn't in the slammer for the "DigiCrime" parody, given the
"knowlege and experience" of Mr. Investigator here. 

-- 
Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project
http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html













From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 18:47:49 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:47:49 +0800
Subject: Mitnick wants cyphertext; gov't wants keys
In-Reply-To: <v04011709b21b77ad42e7@[207.22.4.32]>
Message-ID: <199809090134.SAA14123@netcom13.netcom.com>



well, this is very interesting. Mitnick therefore represents
one of the first cases in which the govt is attempting
to compel keys. he's taken the 5th amendment against
giving the keys.

it looks to me like this: maybe mitnick had no backup of his
encrypted data. the FBI takes his laptop with all the
encrypted data. there may be some things in the data
that could tend to support his innocence-- but perhaps
there are other things that would tend to incriminate
him more than he already is.  so he wants the whole
set of data first, so he can make sure, without giving
the keys. the govt wants the whole set of data first, so they can 
make sure!! stalemate.

I think the govt does not have much of a case. it seems to
me that they should make the full contents of the laptop
available to the defense. it was mitnicks property. it
would be like them seizing someone's file cabinet. it
would be easy to make xerox's and return them to the
defendant.  but gosh, maybe with Rico that's too much of
a gracious act.






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 19:17:09 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:17:09 +0800
Subject: Tax silliness
In-Reply-To: <v0313030fb21a54ac6b9b@[209.66.100.36]>
Message-ID: <v03130300b21b8feed222@[209.66.100.138]>



At 10:39 PM -0700 9/7/98, Tim May wrote:
>Folks, I generally restrain myself from passing on all the various news
>stories I see or read.
>
>But tonight Fox News is reporting that the IRS has said it may seek to
>assess "gift taxes" if the guy who recovered Mark McGwire's 61st home
>baseball gives the ball back to Mark McGwire.
>
>(The ball is said to have a street value, to museums or collectors, of
>$250K or so. The 62nd home run ball, the one which breaks Maris' record,
>will supposedly be worth more than a million bucks.)

As you may have heard by now, if you are watching the game tonight, the IRS
Commissioner issued a statement saying anyone who gets the ball and gives
it to another (esp. McGwire) will NOT face taxes.

(Ah, but will McGwire face taxes on such a gift? Just think, had the IRS
not issued a royal decree absolving the perpetrator of taxes, they could
have collected taxes on the guy who got the ball and then taxes on the guy
who had the ball given to him. Through the miracle of multiple taxation,
the IRS gets it all....)

The IRS Commissioner also acknowledged the absurdity of this particular
clause of the tax code, and compared the tax code to obscure baseball rules.

Someone suggested in private e-mail to me that the IRS would likely _not_
seek taxes, but acknowledged that it _could_. And there's the rub.

As it happens, a ballpark employee actually _caught_ the ball, it is being
reported, in a special restricted zone. He says he'll give the ball to
McGwire ("but I don't want to be taxed!" he said on camera). Possibly a
good deal for him, as it heads off a typically American lawsuit by the
owners of the ballpark claiming they own the fruits of his labor, and he
maybe gets a minor book deal, and he avoids villification by the Oprah and
Geraldo crowd.

(I confess that if I'd gotten the ball I'd let capitalism work its magic by
selling the ball to the highest bidder. A million bucks, for starters.)

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 19:27:35 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:27:35 +0800
Subject: Tax silliness (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809090245.VAA13237@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:04:02 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
> Subject: Re: Tax silliness

> not issued a royal decree absolving the perpetrator of taxes, they could
> have collected taxes on the guy who got the ball and then taxes on the guy
> who had the ball given to him. Through the miracle of multiple taxation,
> the IRS gets it all....)

That isn't accurate. The tax was a 'gift tax' and the ONLY person required
to pay tax on it is the person GIVING the gift.

Had you actualy read the announcement by the IRS it states very clearly that
the reciever is NOT responsible for any taxes.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:27:38 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:27:38 +0800
Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 4.25:UK Police May Soon Tap Your Email & Internet Use At Will
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18211@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: "ama-gi ISPI" <offshore at email.msn.com>
Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 4.25:UK Police May Soon Tap Your Email & Internet Use At Will
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:16:50 -0700
To: <Undisclosed.Recipients at majordomo.pobox.com>

ISPI Clips 4.25:UK Police May Soon Tap Your Email & Internet Use At Will
News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI)
Tuesday September 8, 1998
ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This From: The Independent Network, Monday September 7, 1998
http://www.independent.co.uk

The PC in your mailbox:
The police may soon be allowed to read your email and check your Internet
use at will.
http://www.independent.co.uk/net/980907ne/index.html

By
Paul Lavin

When you drop an envelope in a red pillar-box, you walk away confident that
your mail will not be read by anyone except the addressee. However, when
you send an email, it might be wise to reflect on the differences.

According to the organisation Internet Freedom, an agreement being
negotiated between the UK's internet service providers (ISPs) and the
police will open the email of the UK's eight million Internet users to
scrutiny without debate in Parliament or oversight by the courts or the
Home Secretary.

British police are said to be close to reaching an agreement with ISPs that
will enable them to monitor customers' emails and web usage logs. Chris
Ellison of Internet Freedom, says: "Following a series of meetings between
the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and Internet industry
representatives, we understand that both groups have stated a willingness
to reach a 'memorandum of understanding' about implementing police access
to private data held by ISPs."

According to David Kennedy, chairman of the Internet Service Providers
Association, that is a serious overstatement of the discussions. However,
he admits that the UK's ISPs are trying to avoid being flooded by court
orders or having the police cart off critical servers for evidence. He
says: "We are talking to law enforcement representatives to find a way to
work with them within the legal framework that exists. All members of our
association take the view that emails are private."

As with the understanding between the Metropolitan Police and the ISPs over
"banned" Usenet newsgroups and the closing down of web sites that may
breach the law, the significance of such an agreement is that any such
police activity may not be subjected to judicial review or legal
constraint. Detective Chief Superintendent Keith Ackerman, chairman of the
ACPO's computing crimes sub-committee, says: "We want to ensure the
criminal doesn't take best advantage of the Internet, without requiring the
Government to use the sledgehammer of regulation. However, we are not
looking for the ability to go on fishing expeditions."

The ISPs know that they are stuck in the middle, according to Keith
Mitchell, chairman of Linx, a partnership of large ISPs. He says: "To
divulge private email even under duress would be commercial suicide for an
ISP. In some circumstances it would constitute a crime."

Nonetheless, mistakes happen and there are well-known cases where the
police have been persuasive. Mitchell says: "The current laws do not
adequately protect ISPs or private individuals. We will be active in
seeking responsive changes from Parliament."

While there are undoubtedly individuals who use the Internet's email and
worldwide web for nefarious purposes, the vast majority of people who use
email and the web for personal and business communications have an
expectation of privacy. And law-abiding citizens who wholeheartedly support
the goals of law enforcement agencies may nevertheless feel uneasy about
giving them carte blanche over email.

America Online has been quite vocal in its opposition to opening the doors
to the police short of a court order. Many ISPs agree. Julie Hatch,
marketing communications director of Easynet, says:"We do not allow anyone
to access our customers' email without a court order.

"It makes no difference if it is an estranged wife or a suspicious business
partner or anyone else, we would not divulge a subscriber's private email
unless we were presented with a court order. This is in accordance with our
terms and conditions.

"Our business is also subject to restrictions imposed by the Data
Protection Act (DPA), and in any situation we would certainly abide by
those rules. So unless a subscriber's actions are illegal, you can say that
email is confidential."

The DPA provides scanty protection to email users, however.

While the Act has aspects that protect the quality and use of information
held in computer systems, disclosure can be afforded by a compliant ISP by
simply including appropriate language in the small print of their terms and
conditions. Data may be revealed to law enforcement officials as long as
the subscriber is notified.

Easynet's assurances highlight the differences between ISPs that are
classified as telecoms providers, protected from feeling the long arm of
the law by a regulatory framework, and those that are merely private
businesses unaccountable to anyone but their owners and governed solely by
their contracts with subscribers.

As well as Easynet, UK ISPs that are regulated as telecoms providers
include BT Internet and Demon, which is now part of Scottish Telecom.

Smaller ISPs are more vulnerable to the persuasive demands of the
police.They have no legally protected right of privacy and any redress for
email disclosure would only be for breach of contract.

Furthermore, most ISPs now include in their terms and conditions a
requirement that the subscriber bear the expense of any legal costs
resulting from their use of the service. This could lead to a complaining
subscriber having to bear the costs of both sides of a lawsuit against an
ISP even if they won.

The most serious aspect of this potential agreement between the police and
ISPS is, according to critics, the absence of legal safeguards. In order to
tap telephones, the police need the permission of the Home Secretary and
must justify violating the privacy of a suspect. It is not clear from the
law whether tapping a telephone and tapping into an email exchange are the
same thing.

Chris Ellison says: "This is what is so dangerous about the new culture of
private regulation and moral responsibility. ISPs now operate in a moral
climate which insists on limitations for freedom of speech. Any material
that causes offence - especially to children and ethnic minorities - is
regularly removed. ISPs have now embraced this self-censorship credo and
are willing to set themselves up as moral arbiters of internet content,
filtering out anything that they feel may be illegal."

Without public debate or scrutiny by Parliament, the police are likely to
gain, as Liz Parratt from the organisation Liberty puts it, "a snoopers'
charter for the Internet". Ordinary users will have little legal protection
or redress against police monitoring of their communications. This trend
could render the Internet less private and more regulated than any other
communications medium.

"If nothing else, these discussions have demonstrated what self-regulation
really means: ISPs undertaking the role of publicly unaccountable
instruments of law enforcement."

Email is not like a letter in an envelope; it is more like a postcard. Just
as you would not put some messages on a postcard, you should think before
you use email for your most private communications. While the legality and
desirability of the any agreement between ACPO and the ISPs is highly
debatable, anyone interested in maintaining their privacy on the Internet
must take responsibility for their own actions.

The agreement between ACPO and ISPs will be the subject of three seminars:
22 September in Edinburgh, 8 October in London and 27 October in
Manchester. Additional details can be found at
http://www.linx.net/misc/acposeminar.html .


--------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------
ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from
all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international
newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip
does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion
by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research
and educational purposes only.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research
into electronic, personal and  financial privacy with a view toward
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with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise
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But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and
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From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:30:54 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:30:54 +0800
Subject: IP: Machine Vision For Biometric Applications
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18267@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: believer at telepath.com
Subject: IP: Machine Vision For Biometric Applications
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:07:57 -0500
To: believer at telepath.com

----------------------
NOTE:  Document contains instructive images.  You should go to the website
and open the images.
----------------------

Source: Applied Optics Group at the University of Kent at Canterbury (U.K.)
http://speke.ukc.ac.uk/physical-sciences/aog/facereco/

Machine Vision For Biometric Applications 

We are currently conducting research in the areas of automated facial
recognition and data compression of digitised images of the human face.
This work began by performing an eigenfactor  analysis on a data set
comprising 290 faces drawn largely from the student population at the
University of Kent, Canterbury. 

The image below shows the first three components (eigenfaces) resulting
from this analysis. It is interesting to note that eigenfaces 2 and 3 have
a clear relationship to gender. Thus the addition of eigenface 2 to the
average eigenface (1) results in a feminine face whereas the subtraction of
face 2 produces a face having masculine characteristics. In a similar way,
addition of face 3 to the average produces a masculine face and subtraction
of face 3 from the average results in a face having feminine features. 

This approach, variously known as the Karhunen-Loeve expansion, eigenfactor
analysis, principal components or the Hotelling transform has exceptional
data compression properties when applied to this particular pattern class
(2-D images of human faces).

Below, we show the image reconstruction quality that is achievable using
codes of varying lengths which describe how to reconstitute the image using
the component eigenfaces as a basis. Note that the subject shown here was
not included in the original data set used to generate the eigenface basis.
Despite this, recognition is achieved using a very short code. 

This method works particularly well when conditions such as head-camera
orientation and subject illumination are controlled.We are now
investigating other methods (some related to the Karhunen-Loeve expansion,
some not) which may be suitable for automated facial recognition under less
benign conditions. In particular, we are beginning to investigate the use
of illumination compensation techniques and 3-D imaging techniques which
are independent of illumination conditions. 

The group working on facial recognition here at UKC collaborates with a
number of commercial/industrial organisations in the U.K. and Europe. We
currently await the outcome of a cooperative research bid (CRAFT) to the
European Commission which will involve the development of facial biometrics
for smart cards and other access control applications. The industrial
partners are Neural Computer Sciences (U.K.), Datastripe Ltd (U.K.), Inside
Technologies (France), Smartkort (Iceland) and A la Carte (Belgium). 

More links on Facial Recognition 

 Staff Involved 

 Dr. C.J. Solomon - E-mail: C.J.Solomon at ukc.ac.uk 
 Jamie P. Brooker - E-mail: jpb3 at ukc.ac.uk 
-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------




**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
     majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com
with the message:
     (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address
**********************************************
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From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:31:01 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:31:01 +0800
Subject: [FP] FW: Bill to Limit Nat'l ID Plan
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18290@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: "ScanThisNews" <mcdonalds at airnet.net>
Subject: [FP] FW: Bill to Limit Nat'l ID Plan
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 22:09:53 -0500
To: "Scan This News Recipients List" <scan at efga.org>


[Forwarded message from:]
believer at telepath.com [mailto:believer at telepath.com]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 1997 3:12 PM
To: believer at telepath.com
Subject: Bill to Limit Nat'l ID Plan

---------------------------
NOTE TO LISTEES:  Remember:  LIMITING is NOT what we want.  Limiting will
only detail the terms and conditions under which a National ID *W*I*L*L* be
required.  We want no ID at all.  Let's make this clear to legislators.
They still don't get it.
---------------------------

Source:  Washington Post
http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WAPO/19980904/V000365-090498-idx.htm
l

Senate Mulls Healthcare ID Proposal

By Cassandra Burrell
Associated Press Writer
Friday, September 4, 1998; 1:39 a.m. EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A plan to assign every American a lifetime
health-care ID number, similar to a Social Security number, could face
new limits under a measure headed for Senate debate.

A provision introduced Thursday by Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison,
R-Texas, would prohibit the Health and Human Services Department
from going forward with the plan until Congress approves its specifics.

Critics say the system, being developed as part of the 1996 Health
Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, could invade privacy by
opening medical histories to insurers, employers and others. The law
guarantees that anyone changing or losing a job would be able to get
health insurance, even with a pre-existing medical condition.

``The plan, as HHS intended to carry it forward, raises questions of
excessive government involvement and control -- not to mention privacy,''
Hutchison said.

The Senate Appropriations Committee added Hutchison's amendment to
an $82 billion spending bill funding the Labor, Education and Health and
Human Services departments as well as several related agencies for the
fiscal year that begins Oct. 1.

The committee approved the overall bill with little debate and sent it to
the
Senate. But some members said they planned to introduce more
controversial issues into the bill during floor debate, including provisions
dealing with federal funding of single-sex classrooms and allowing
Medicare recipients to go outside the program for care not covered by the
plan.

President Clinton has threatened to veto a matching bill in the House
because it lacks money for some of his favorite programs, such as summer
jobs for poor youth and low-income heating assistance.

Also Thursday, the Senate resolved a dispute over staffing at the Federal
Election Commission, clearing the way for passage of a $29.9 billion
spending bill funding the Treasury Department and related agencies.

The Treasury bill was pulled from the Senate floor in late July because of
Democratic objections to a Republican amendment that would have made
it easier to remove the FEC's staff director and general counsel. With
resolution of the issue, the bill passed 91-5 Thursday without further
debate.

Introduced by Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., the disputed amendment
sought to limit to four years the currently open-ended terms of the two
officials and to require approval of four of the FEC's six commissioners
before the terms could be extended.

Each party selects three commissioners. Democrats, led by Sen. Carl
Levin of Michigan, contended the amendment would let one party remove
an official for no reason and undermine the agency's independence.

Under a compromise worked out with Levin, the current general counsel
and staff director would not have term limits, future service would be set
at six years with votes of only three commissioners required to approve an
extension.

The $27 billion House bill, which passed in July, does not include language
on the FEC staffers. Differences will have to be worked out in a
House-Senate conference.

The Senate bill, which would increase money for drug enforcement, gang
resistance and customer service by the Internal Revenue Service,
establishes spending at $7.85 billion for the IRS, $1.7 billion for the U.S.
Customs Service and $593 million for the Secret Service.

Like the House bill, it would freeze salaries for members of Congress but
would allow 3.6 percent cost-of-living raises for other federal workers.

It also was amended to require federal employee health plans that cover
prescription drugs to provide coverage for contraceptives.

 � Copyright 1998 The Associated Press

-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------






From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:31:21 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:31:21 +0800
Subject: IP: [FP] Congress's Secret Plans to Get Our Medical Records
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18233@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: "ScanThisNews" <mcdonalds at airnet.net>
Subject: IP: [FP] Congress's Secret Plans to Get Our Medical Records
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:47:05 -0500
To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com

Congress's Secret Plans to Get Our Medical Records

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/1998/aug98/98-08-19.html

August 19, 1998

Americans were outraged to learn about the Federal Government's plans to
assign a personal identification number to every medical patient. But
Congress nevertheless passed H.R. 4250, the so-called Patient Protection
Act, which allows anyone who maintains your personal medical records to
gather, exchange and distribute them.

The only condition on distribution is that the information be used for
"health care operations," which is a vague and meaningless limitation that
does not even exclude marketing. Even worse, H.R. 4250 preempts state laws
that currently protect patients from unauthorized distribution of their
medical records.

While the sponsors of H.R. 4250 claim that they did not intend for the
information to be circulated for "just anything," their spokesman confirmed
that personal medical records would be used for future programs concerning
health quality and disease management.

When the Kennedy-Kassebaum law was passed in 1996, we were told it was to
improve access to health insurance. The law became explosively controversial
last month when the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) began to
implement the Kennedy-Kassebaum "unique health care identifiers" so that
government can electronically tag, track and monitor every citizen's
personal medical records.

After this news broke on July 18, embarrassed Congressmen inserted a line in
H.R. 4250, which passed July 24, ordering HHS not to promulgate "a final
standard" without Congressional authorization. That language is a total
phony; it doesn't prevent HHS from issuing proposed or interim standards
(which will become de facto standards) or from collecting medical data.

So much money is involved in accessing and controlling personal information
that the Washington lobbyists are moving rapidly to lock in the
extraordinary powers conferred by the Kennedy-Kassebaum law. That explains
these sneaky eleventh-hour inserts in pending legislation.

On August 4, the House passed yet another bill to protect the gathering of
personal information on private citizens. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, there
they go again.

Just before passing H.R. 2281, a bill about copyrights on the Internet, the
House quietly attached a separate and dangerous bill deceptively entitled
the "Collections of Information Antipiracy Act."

No one, of course, is in favor of "piracy," but the impact of this bill goes
far beyond any reasonable definition of piracy. By the legerdemain of
inserting it in another bill, it will go straight to a House-Senate
conference committee under a procedure designed to avoid debate or
amendments in the Senate.

This Collections of Information bill (now part of H.R. 2281), in effect,
creates a new federal property right to own, manage and control personal
information about you, including your name, address, telephone number,
medical records, and "any other intangible material capable of being
collected and organized in a systematic way." This new property right
provides a powerful incentive for corporations to build nationwide databases
of the personal medical information envisioned by the Kennedy-Kassebaum law
and the Patient Protection bill.

Under the Collections of Information bill, any information about you can be
owned and controlled by others under protection of Federal law. Your medical
chart detailing your visits to your doctor, for example, would suddenly
become the federally protected property of other persons or corporations,
and their rights (not your rights) would be protected by Federal police
power.

This bill will encourage health care corporations to assign a unique
national health identifier to each patient. The government can then simply
agree to use a privately-assigned national identifier, and Clinton's
longtime goal of government control of health care will be achieved.

This bill creates a new federal crime that penalizes a first offense by a
fine of up to $250,000 or imprisonment for up to 5 years, or both, for
interfering with this new property right. It even authorizes Federal judges
to order seizure of property before a finding of wrongdoing.

H.R. 2281 grants these new Federal rights only to private databases, and
pretends to exclude the government's own efforts to collect information
about citizens. But a loophole in the bill permits private firms to share
their Federally protected data with the government so long as the
information is not collected under a specific government agency or license
agreement.

This loophole will encourage corporations, foundations, Washington insiders
and political donors, to build massive databases of citizens' medical and
other personal records, and then share that data with the government. And,
under the House-passed bill cynically called the Patient Protection Act,
patients would be unable to invoke state privacy laws to protect their
personal records.

Meanwhile, in another aspect of the Federal takeover of all Americans'
health care, the Centers for Disease Control is aggressively building a
national database of all children's medical records through the ruse of
tracking immunizations.

Tell your Congressman and Senators you won't vote for them in the upcoming
elections unless they immediately stop all Federal plans to track and
monitor our health or immunization records.

Phyllis Schlafly column 8-19-98


[thanks to jim groom for finding this piece]
[message forwarded by]
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From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:31:26 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:31:26 +0800
Subject: IP: [FP] FW: Americans love a police state
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18222@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: "ScanThisNews" <mcdonalds at airnet.net>
Subject: IP: [FP] FW: Americans love a police state
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:46:54 -0500
To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com

[Forwarded message]

[The driver's license/ID serves as the link, giving police the "authority"
to set up so-called "DUI checkpoints." These are in reality ID checkpoints.
That is the fact. They can stop you and ask to se the DL/ID because it
actually belongs to the state and the state can demand it any time they
like. The next time you hear someone talking about how great these DUI stops
are, just remember, they are really ID checkpoints -- do you have your
papers?]

-------------------------------

WND - Letters to the editor
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/e-mail/98.e-mail.html

Americans love a police state

I think I've said this before but I'm amazed how our society (America)
has adopted like a favorite pet, the concept of DUI CHECKPOINTS. They
don't even call them POLICE CHECKPOINTS but DUI CHECKPOINTS because the
MAD mothers convinced America that everyone must be a drunk driver,
therefore you need DUI CHECKPOINTS. Remember, it is for the
children!

I heard a news brief this morning telling viewers "this holiday weekend
most law enforcement agencies in the city and county (San Diego) will be
conducting DUI checkpoints." Then the report showed statistics of a
checkpoint that was conducted last night saying 643 cars were checked
and 4 drivers were arrested, three for DUI while seven cars were
impounded. My math shows that only less than one half of one-percent
(00.47 percent) were DUI in the checkpoint last night. This clearly
should be evidence to the Beanie Baby collectors in their sport utility
vehicles that people who are not intoxicated while driving are being
subject to arrest for other items along with drivers having their cars
towed because they missed an insurance payment or did not register their
car because the new SMOG II standards caused their car to be classified
as a
GORE or GROSS POLLUTER. By the way, the insurance companies in America
are some of the
most corrupt and greedy institutions that contribute to all those
politicians who require you have insurance. Talk about the oligarchs in
Russia, we have them here already!

As Americans we thought we had free speech and free movement but not
with these
checkpoints. And you know how they tell you that you can turn around
before a checkpoint to avoid it? WRONG! The Supreme Court did rule that
there must be a sign with a point that vehicles may do a 180 but the
problem is that law enforcement actively posts a patrol vehicle or two
with lights off near that turn-around point and then they follow whoever
avoids the checkpoint and stop them on probable cause.

When will these checkpoints seize cash if you cannot account for the
$1,000 you carry? They are already doing this at the border leaving
America. When will these checkpoints seize anti-government printed
e-mail messages (I carry this kind of stuff in my car, sometimes books
on the New World Order or Illuminati) because of a new ANTI-TERRORIST
LAW? This week your friendly politicians held hearings interviewing
Louis Freeh of FBI and ex-CIA Directors (most of the ex-Directors are
dead now, i.e. Colby and Casey, etc., so I think they only had one to
use) with an active discussion that items that were
originally thrown out of the ANTI TERRORIST BILL need to be re-included
to protect against those nasty Islamic terrorists. Sure!

I also have a King James Bible in my car (been accident free for at
least 300,000 miles) and maybe one day at the checkpoint they'll grab
that and say "don't get caught with that again." "You know those
Christians are dangerous people" the two cops will say to one another,
"those Christians are against abortion and euthanasia, can you believe
that Sam?"

DARREN


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Groom [mailto:gs924jfj at mon-cre.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 5:11 AM
To: Current Events
Subject: Americans love a police state






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From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:31:41 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:31:41 +0800
Subject: IP: " Will Y2K usher in TEOTWAWKI?"
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18278@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: believer at telepath.com
Subject: IP: " Will Y2K usher in TEOTWAWKI?"
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:49:38 -0500
To: believer at telepath.com

Source:  Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/texas-southwest-nf/tsw1.htm

 Turn for the worst? 

 09/06/98

 By Victorial Loe Hicks / The Dallas Morning News 

 A CAVE IN ARKANSAS - Will Y2K usher in TEOTWAWKI?

 Bryan Elder is sure it will - so sure that he'll be deep
 beneath the ground on Jan. 1, 2000.

 "As soon as I get a cave, I'm going to live in it," Mr.
 Elder vowed, wending his way through one
 Arkansas cavern. "I'll be the world's next caveman."

 Y2K is the pop-culture moniker for the
 programming glitch that left millions of computers
 and other devices unable to recognize dates beyond
 the year 1999. The disruption will depend on how
 many faulty mainframes, PCs and microchips - in
 everything from nuclear plants to VCRs - can be
 detected and fixed in the next 16 months.

 Most people regard Y2K with mild to moderate
 anxiety. But a flourishing subculture insists that it
 portends nothing less than TEOTWAWKI
 (tee-OH-tawa-kee): The End of the World as We
 Know It.

 "There won't be any accidental survivors," said Mr.
 Elder, who believes that computer failures will
 short-circuit the electric grid and the transportation
 system, fostering severe food shortages and social
 anarchy.

 "I'm not afraid of dying," he said. "I'd prefer not to
 starve to death."

 His scenario - which also envisions nuclear war,
 bombardment by asteroids, incineration by solar
 windstorm, the flip-flop of the North and South
 poles, an ice age and the second coming of Jesus
 Christ - is one of the more dramatic, even among
 Y2K alarmists. But he isn't alone in hunkering down.

 Merchants of survival goods say business is
 booming, primarily driven by new customers who
 are girding for Y2K. Anecdotes abound of city
 dwellers, including some computer jocks, who are
 poised to flee to the boonies, where they can store
 and grow food without having to fend off rapacious
 neighbors.

 Dallas systems analyst Steve Watson told Wired
 magazine that he bought 500 remote Oklahoma
 acres and several guns after recognizing the full
 ramifications of the Y2K crisis.

 Mr. Watson did not respond to interview requests
 from The Dallas Morning News. A vice president
 of the firm he works for, DMR Consulting, said Mr.
 Watson had come to regret his public stance, which
 "the company doesn't share."

 But in one respect, every cautionary voice is right.

 Y2K is absolutely guaranteed to happen. In a
 mounting wave that will crest powerfully on Jan. 1,
 2000, computers will encounter dates in which the
 two-digit year field reads 00, which "noncompliant"
 computers will read as 1900.

 Depending on whether a particular computer needs
 to know what year it is - to calculate accrued
 interest, for example, or to track maintenance
 schedules of industrial machinery - it may go on
 working normally, produce bad data or simply
 freeze up. If enough computers fail - say, at banks
 or telephone companies - the whole country,
 perhaps the world, could wake up with a whale of a
 New Year's hangover.

 By some estimates, industries and governments will
 spend as much as $600 billion to make things right.
 Even so, the Gartner Group, a research firm that has
 studied the issue since 1989, forecasts that half of
 the companies around the world will experience
 some disruption of their operations, further sapping
 an already woozy global economy.

 Precisely who will get hurt, how badly and for how
 long is the question - a question impossible to
 answer.

 "The uncertainty factor is immense. That's what
 makes this prophetic material," said Dr. Richard
 Landes, director of the Center for Millennial Studies
 at Boston University.

 "Back when I first heard about Y2K, I immediately
 realized that this would be grist for the apocalyptic
 prophets' mills."

 At a vigorous 32, Mr. Elder hardly fits the hoary
 image of a prophet.

 A marketing major from the University of Arkansas,
 he ran his own hydraulic service company until a
 couple of years ago, when he began devoting himself
 to studies of biblical prophecies and other spiritual
 texts.

 "The angel of death, that's how I feel," he said.

 He wants urgently for others to heed his warning, to
 believe, as he does, that anyone who remains above
 ground faces certain annihilation. Once the power
 grid goes dark, as he is sure it will, the financial
 system will collapse, he said.

 "Then we're back to the barter system and 'How
 much food do you have?' "

 That's only a prelude however. On May 5, 2000,
 Mr. Elder said, most of the planets in the solar
 system will align themselves on the opposite side of
 the sun from Earth. That will trigger the solar gales
 and the asteroid shower, which will precipitate still
 further catastrophes.

 "The computer problem will weed out a lot, and the
 solar wind will get the rest," he said. "The time to
 prepare is right now."

 For prepare, read: find a cave. Mr. Elder has his
 sights on one near Cassville, Mo., that he figures can
 accommodate 125 people.

 If he can reach a deal with the present owners, he
 plans to add plumbing, ventilation, diesel-fired
 generators, grow lights and enough basic supplies to
 sustain life for as long as seven years. Everyone will
 share the costs - $11,743 per person, he calculates.

 Byron Kirkwood isn't ready to live in a cave, but he
 does plan to be prepared for Y2K. Which in his
 case is easy, since he runs a mail-order survival
 products business from his rural Oklahoma home.

 He started the company six years ago, after his wife,
 Annie, said she received messages from the Virgin
 Mary - which she passed on in a series of books -
 warning that cataclysmic "earth changes" were
 imminent.

 These days, though, most of Mr. Kirkwood's
 customers are more worried about whether Y2K
 will cripple the U.S. economy than whether the
 Earth is about to turn on its side and acquire a
 second sun.

 Mrs. Kirkwood said Mary has not explicitly
 addressed Y2K, although she did warn recently that
 "major changes . . . will come about through
 government, banking institutions and
 telecommunications. Your power sources will be
 interrupted, and your life will change drastically."

 "That sure fits Y2K," Mr. Kirkwood said, "but she
 didn't come right out and say, 'The computers will
 fail.' "

 In any case, he said, sales of his survival products
 are up five-fold over last year, with water filters,
 hand-cranked radios and long-shelf-life foods
 leading the list.

 A rack in his office displays freeze-dried entrees -
 pepper steak, cheese ravioli and chili - packaged
 with individual chemical heating units. Some orders
 have come from as far away as Hong Kong and
 Austria.

 Like many Y2K pessimists, he gets much of his
 information and does much of his business via the
 Internet - using computers to bewail humankind's
 impending betrayal by computers.

 "I'm not trying to be a doomsayer," Mr. Kirkwood
 said. "I only give TEOTWAWKI a 10 percent
 chance of happening."

 However, he said, if food becomes scarce, "there's
 not enough police, not enough national guard, not
 enough military to go around."

 Those who stockpile food, water and cash - or who
 head for the hills - may look foolish to those who
 don't, he said, but only time will tell who are the real
 fools.

 "Some of us will look stupid one way, or some of us
 will look stupid the other way," he said. "You just
 don't know which side of stupid you're going to be
 on."

 Although Y2K is a purely technological, secular
 problem, there is a strong nexus between Y2K
 anxieties and religious millennialism, which predicts a
 catastrophic cleansing as the precursor to a new
 paradise.

 Like the Kirkwoods and Mr. Elder, the Dallas Area
 Y2K Community Preparedness Group is overtly
 Christian. The Rev. Pat Robertson's Christian
 Broadcasting Network has extensive Y2K links on
 its Web site.

 And Dr. Gary North, whom some regard as the
 Paul Revere of the Y2K crisis, is prominent in the
 Religious Reconstruction movement, which
 advocates replacing the Constitution with biblical
 law. Dr. North used to live in Tyler, Texas, but he
 has moved to northern Arkansas, which, like eastern
 Oklahoma, offers solitude to separatists of various
 persuasions.

 "The millennial myth can take secular or religious
 forms," said Dr. Philip Lamy, a sociologist at
 Castleton State College in Vermont who studies
 millennial movements.

 Regardless of the form, he said, the driving force is
 angst about today's rapid social change - change as
 momentous as that experienced during the Industrial
 Revolution.

 "What a lot of millennial groups are trying to do is
 hold onto the past," Dr. Lamy said. "They are
 merely saying that they're afraid."

 Of course, fear is not an unreasonable response.

 "This is not a false issue," said Bill Wachel, a
 computer consultant who founded DFW Prep 2000,
 a forum in which industry representatives share
 information on the issue.

 "It's possible, yeah, that the whole world could
 come apart. Is it probable? No."

 Dr. Leon Kappelman of the University of North
 Texas is leading the charge for government to
 pressure crucial industries such as electric utilities,
 telecommunications and medicine to fix Y2K
 problems. He isn't anticipating doom, but he doubts
 that many Americans will escape unscathed.

 "I don't really know what the future is. I know there
 are serious risks," he said. "I expect life to be a little
 more difficult for awhile."

 He has no use for those who choose to flee.

 "Cowards would be a good word [for them]," he
 said. "Deserters."

 Dr. Landes, too, urges Americans to hang together
 rather than hang separately.

 "Y2K can be a gift," he said. "It's a test. How do we
 as a culture handle this - not only the problem, but
 the rhetoric surrounding the problem?"

 As Mr. Elder explored the cave he had chosen to
 demonstrate to a visitor the wisdom of his plan, he
 came upon artifacts of a earlier era's doomsday
 fears. Next to a sign designating the cavern as an
 official fallout shelter lay tins of 1950s-vintage
 survival rations.

 The tins were unopened and pocked with rust.

 � 1998 The Dallas Morning News
-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------




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From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:31:56 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:31:56 +0800
Subject: IP: Industrial Espionage Increases as Firms Seek Competitive Edge
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18256@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: Richard Sampson <rjsa at sprintmail.com>
Subject: IP: Industrial Espionage Increases as Firms Seek Competitive Edge
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 12:52:43 -0400
To: "ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com" <ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com>

 Industrial Espionage Increases as Firms Seek Competitive Edge
Sep. 6 (The Record/KRTBN)--The place: the Four Seasons Hotel,
Philadelphia. The date: June 14, 1997.

On one side of the table, two men from a Taiwanese company hoping to
expand into biotechnology. On the other, an FBI agent posing as an
information broker, and a researcher from Princeton-based Bristol-Myers
Squibb posing as a corrupt scientist preparing to sell a piece of his
company's soul.

On the table: a sheaf of papers -- stamped "confidential" in big,
black letters -- representing the company's investment of hundreds of
millions of dollars in Taxol, the blockbuster anti-cancer drug. The
asking price, according to the FBI: $200,000 and a percentage of sales.

The drama played out in that hotel room -- which ended when additional
FBI agents burst through the door and arrested the Taiwanese -- marked
the first federal sting operation against alleged spies for a foreign
corporation.

But industrial espionage today is far from unusual. U.S. companies are
increasingly being looted of some of their most precious technical
secrets by competitors -- both foreign and domestic -- using legal and
illegal methods. And New Jersey's research labs and high-tech companies
-- particularly pharmaceutical companies -- are prime targets.

>From 1992 to 1996, according to one study, the number of  cases of
industrial espionage at the nation's 1,300 largest companies nearly
doubled to about 1,100.  The potential commercial value of the stolen
information was pegged at $300 billion.

Richard Heffernan, a Branford, Conn., consultant who conducted the
study for the American Society of Industrial Security of Alexandria,
Va., said New Jersey pharmaceutical companies -- including Merck & Co.,
Schering-Plough, Warner-Lambert, and Johnson & Johnson -- have all been
targeted by corporate spies.

The reason: the hundreds of new products in their research and
development pipelines -- products that require huge investments in time
and money. Those pipelines hold the potential for billions of dollars
in profits.

"New Jersey is one of the top 10 areas for corporate espionage," said
Heffernan, who has advised a number of New Jersey drug companies on
ways to protect their secrets. "This is not a new thing for
pharmaceutical companies, and it's become progressively worse. There's
so much money to be made from the theft of their information. That
pipeline is a very deep, rich vein of gold."

In addition to illegal intrusions -- which can include anything from
hacking into a private computer to buying trade secrets from a company
insider -- more companies are targeting competitors' secrets using
legal -- but in some cases, unethical, or highly intrusive -- methods.

Membership in the Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals --
an Alexandria, Va., group that advocates the use of legal methods to
gather business intelligence on competitors -- has skyrocketed in
recent years, more than quadrupling since 1990.

For the most part, competitive intelligence professionals analyze data
from public sources -- news reports, databases, trade shows, and the
like. But they also tap more questionable sources, such as satellite
photos. And they have indicated a widespread willingness to step over
ethical lines to obtain information on business rivals.

In a survey published in April by the competitive intelligence group,
participants -- all corporate spies -- were given several scenarios and
asked to choose from various options on how to proceed. Nearly half
said they were willing to misrepresent the purpose of their research,
30 percent were prepared to read a marketing report left on an adjacent
airplane seat, more than 70 percent said it was permissible to pump a
new hire for confidential information about her previous employer, and
20 percent were willing to read and use a competitor's proprietary
product data.

All of those tactics violate the competitive intelligence group's own
code of ethics, and the last might step over legal lines as well,
according to the survey's authors.

"I think there is room for some very legitimate information gathering
that's important for companies to do," said Gayle Porter, an authority
on business ethics at Rutgers University. "But I think there are
probably many, many, many examples of people taking it too far."

In New Jersey, there are abundant examples of companies alleging that
they have been targets of industrial espionage -- or who have been
accused of targeting others.

In 1996, Boehringer Mannheim Corp., a German drug company competing
against New Brunswick-based Johnson & Johnson in the $1.75 billion
market for blood-monitoring devices, sued J&J and its LifeScan
subsidiary in federal court.

Boehringer alleged that LifeScan offered employees incentives for
spying on its archrival, and that LifeScan employees sneaked into
Boehringer sales meetings in Indiana, Florida, Turkey, and Germany to
obtain proprietary product information. J&J denied the charges and in a
countersuit said Boehringer hired detectives to obtain secrets and had
workers pose as customers.

Boehringer acknowledged some of J&J's charges, including that it had
reprimanded an executive for posing as an importer to obtain a
demonstration of a product not yet on the market, and that it had
maintained a "competitive kill team" targeted at LifeScan.

But the two companies reached an out-of-court settlement in 1997,
agreeing to keep the terms of the settlement secret. J&J spokesman
Jeffrey Leebaw declined to comment. Boehringer did not return calls.

Heffernan and others say industrial espionage is on the rise because
of tougher competition in domestic markets, the targeting of U.S. trade
secrets by foreign economic and industrial interests, and the
combination of computer hackers with increasing technical
sophistication and companies that are woefully unprepared to stop them.

And they say one of the times companies become vulnerable is when
high-level employees leave.

Executives with knowledge of marketing plans for new products and
researchers responsible for developing the next big scientific
breakthrough are often exploited by their new employers to obtain a
competitive edge.

That is what Warner-Lambert of Morris Plains charged in a 1997 lawsuit
that was subsequently dropped.

The company spent 12 years and $17 million developing Procan SR, a
sustained-release drug used to treat heart rhythm irregularities. The
product won Food and Drug Administration approval in 1982.

Warner-Lambert accused a former employee of giving the top-secret
formulas for the drug to Copley Pharmaceutical Inc., a Canton, Mass.,
generic drug manufacturer she went to work for in 1984. Seven months
after she joined the company, Copley asked the FDA to approve a generic
version of the drug, which Copley eventually brought to market.

Neither company would comment on the settlement that ended the matter,
but Jason Ford, a Warner-Lambert spokesman, said the drug -- which was
discontinued several years ago by the company -- was never a
blockbuster.

"It wasn't so much the stealing of the product," Ford said. "The main
reason why we filed the lawsuit was to make it clear that we vigorously
defend our intellectual property. It sends a loud and clear message
that this is something we take very seriously."

Another North Jersey company, the Wormser Corp. of Englewood Cliffs,
also played a key role in an industrial espionage case involving a
former employee -- not as the victim, but as the accused.

The case centered on Frederick Marks III, a production manager
employed by Powell Products Inc. of Colorado Springs, Colo., until
1993. According to a lawsuit filed by Powell in 1995, Marks took with
him top-secret blueprints for a machine developed by Powell  to
mass-produce foam-tipped swabs more quickly and cheaply than any other
machine then available.

Powell accused the Wormser Corp. of bankrolling a plan to use the
stolen blueprints to create a prototype of the Powell machine, and
using the machine to compete against Powell.

After two years of litigation, a Denver jury awarded Powell $2.7
million in damages and legal fees, but Powell settled with the Wormser
Corp. for $1.7 million. Marks pleaded guilty to misdemeanor theft in
February in exchange for his cooperation with the FBI. The Wormsers --
company president Stephen, and his sons, Alan and David -- have not
been charged.

David Wormser referred questions to Bill Meyer, a Boulder, Colo.,
lawyer who denied the allegations, saying the Wormsers settled with
Powell to avoid "years and years" of legal wrangling. Powell President
Stephen Robards said the Wormsers are the true culprits.

"There's no question about it," he said. "The blueprints Marks stole
would not have damaged us without the Wormsers' money. He didn't have
the resources to start a business without them."

Since the passage of the 1996 Economic Espionage Act (EEA) making the
theft of trade secrets a felony, the FBI has become more involved in
industrial espionage cases in which U.S. companies have been targeted
by foreign or domestic interests.

To date, five cases have been brought under the act, including one in
July in which a Piscataway man -- a former scientist for Roche
Diagnostics, a Branchburg division of Nutley-based Hoffmann-La Roche --
was charged with attempted theft of trade secrets from the company.
According to the complaint, Huang Dao Pei tried to obtain secrets from
a current Roche scientist about the company's hepatitis C diagnostic
kit, hoping to market a similar kit in China.

William Megary, special agent in charge of the FBI's Newark office,
said individuals trying to steal American trade secrets are not "street
thugs," but high-tech thieves who are "educated, resourceful, and
elusive."

"Our cases illustrate the complexity of not only how diverse the
criminals are, but how diverse the crimes are, as well," he said. "The
FBI is committed to enforcing the EEA. Our message is clear -- it is no
longer open season on American technology."

Even before the act became law, federal stings were not unheard of.
 In the Bristol-Myers Squibb case, FBI agent John Hartmann established
himself as a technology information broker in 1995 and began laying a
paper trail of more than 135 faxes, e-mail messages, telephone calls,
and letters with the representatives of the Yuen Foong Paper Co., which
would eventually lead to the fateful meeting at the Philadelphia hotel.

Jane Kramer, a spokeswoman for Bristol-Myers Squibb, said the company
uses "the most sophisticated techniques" for safeguarding its trade
secrets, but she would not elaborate. When security is breached, she
added, it is important for a company to fight the intruder with every
weapon in its arsenal.

"Taxol is a major advance in cancer treatment," she said, adding that
the company's multimillion-dollar investment in research on the drug is
more than repaid by its $1 billion in annual sales. "You have a
dramatic investment in research and development that's the lifeblood of
a company like ours. The ramifications are huge for our present and our
future."

In what authorities described as the largest industrial espionage case
in U.S. history, a 1990 FBI sting led to charges against two men for
stealing secrets valued at $1 billion from Merck & Co. in Whitehouse
Station and Schering-Plough Corp. in Madison.

Biochemist Bernard Mayles, a former employee of the two companies, and
a confederate, Mario Miscio, were ultimately convicted of trying to
sell the secret formulas for Ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug
marketed by Merck, and Interferon, a cancer and hepatitis treatment
sold by Schering-Plough.

An FBI agent posing as a Chinese investor who wanted to convert an
idle factory for Ivermectin production agreed to pay $1.5 million for
the formula and the microorganism used to produce the drug. He promised
to arrange the sale of the Interferon formula to a Polish investor for
$10 million.

Schering-Plough spokesman Ronald Asinari declined to comment, but
Merck spokeswoman Maggie Beute said her company has taken additional
steps to safeguard secrets in recent years, including beefing up
computer security and being more vigilant about getting vendors to sign
confidentiality agreements.

"There's so much at stake here," she said. "Anything that shortens the
life of any of our products is going to have detrimental effects on our
ability to recoup our investment in R&D. As an industry, we're very
focused on making sure our intellectual property rights aren't
violated."

Illegal intrusions such as those against Merck, Schering-Plough, and
Bristol-Myers Squibb have created a cottage industry for consultants
who advise companies on how to keep their secrets safe.

Andy Welch, a senior consultant at KPMG Peat Marwick's risk-management
practice, said business has increased tenfold in two years. Two out of
three companies who come to him for help are taking preventive
measures, but the others have already suffered security breaches.

Welch examines personnel policies to make sure there are procedures
for deactivating computer passwords when employees leave. And he
attempts to hack into the company's system from the outside to find its
weak links, such as the ability to dial in to a company's computer
system without a password.

He said many companies are not prepared to deal with the threat of
corporate espionage, especially intrusions into their computer systems,
where many of their most valuable secrets reside.

"The indication is that there is a large degree of unpreparedness out
there," Welch said. "It needs to be taken seriously. I can't tell you
with a straight face that everything is warm and fuzzy out there."

By Louis Lavelle

-0-
 Visit The Record, Hackensack, N.J., on the World Wide Web at
http://www.bergen.com

(c) 1998, The Record, Hackensack, N.J. Distributed by Knight
Ridder/Tribune Business News.  BMY, MRK, SGP, WLA, JNJ, CPLY,
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From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 19:32:05 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:32:05 +0800
Subject: IP: [Fwd: Govt.Storing MRE's In Caves]
Message-ID: <199809090224.TAA18245@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: me <bucsplace at cchat.com>
Subject: IP: [Fwd: Govt.Storing MRE's In Caves]
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 08:45:42 -0400
To: IP <ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------08FDE2A053FE721F529722FE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



--------------08FDE2A053FE721F529722FE
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Path: news.dx.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!xmission!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3
From: "Steve" <peach2 at rocketmail.com>
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Govt.Storing MRE's In Caves
Date: 7 Sep 1998 23:00:31 GMT
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <01bddab3$a25f5600$d34ae5d0 at maddog1.camalott.com>
References: <1998090721534800.RAA12052 at ladder01.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: "Steve" <maddog1 at camalott.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p-499.newsdawg.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161

I can vouch for the existance of these caves in KC.....been by there many
times in the days of my youth( lived there '56-'88). The interesting thing
is the government(FED) kicked the private business's that were using them
for warehousing/storage out....declaring that the caves were unsafe and
dangerous. Funny thing is.....they weren't unsafe enough for the FED's to
use.
Steve
West Texas
-- 
"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and 
  the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow
  the men who pervert the Constitution."  --- Abraham Lincoln       
"You know, of course, that this means war..." Bugs Bunny to Elmer Fudd:
1942

PAPACHUBY2 <papachuby2 at aol.com> wrote in article
<1998090721534800.RAA12052 at ladder01.news.aol.com>...
 Hi, This is off the Ark list.  Interesting.  S.

 Below are two differnet notes that I received today.  I took all
 the return paths off of these so that they can be passed around.
 I personally know both sources and they are EXTREMELY credible.
 Perhaps we can locate a source near Kansas City..to look into
 this (with pictures)......I am MOST curious...
 marie
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 name

 Here's the post I received yesterday from a Y2K chat friend
 regarding the situation. The second message is one I received today 
 from him. He'll be keeping me posted on what else he learns.

 Jeff

 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yesterday's Post-------

Dear friends,

As some of you know, I live in a poor and working class
neighborhood in kansas city, and am involved with various activities that
help poor people become less poor.  As part of this, I often take in
people who are homeless, or would be if not for a safe harbor. One of my
housemates just got a four month temporary job unloading trucks at an
underground storage center located near my neighborhood (KC has a lot of
underground  limestone caves that are used for storage). Anyway, this
particular contract is a government contract, and  the product being
unloaded and stored is MRE's. that is, "meal  ready to eat", which i 
believe is the current incarnation of the old army c rations. how many 
mre's are on a truck? all day, 8 hours a  day, for four months.  
that is a LOT of meals ready to eat.

Note that I didn't hear this from somebody who heard from somebody, i
heard this from somebody in my own household who is unloading the mres,
beginning at 7:30 in the am.

Three things: First, I am comforted to know that this large amount of 
food is being stored here locally. Second, if you have any fiends or
acquaintances who do temporary labor or casual jobs, you might ask 
around and see if any such operations are going on in your city.Three, 
somebody is taking this really seriously. mre's aren't cheap.

Today's Post --------------

Dear Jeff and everybody,

Today they unloaded nine trucks, and then were let go early
because some additional expected trucks didn't show. It takes two
guys about 1-1/2 hours to unload a truck, and each gets $35. Don't know
if this space has been used to store mre's before, but that's on the list
of questions to scope out.  It does seem to be a government contract, 
the supervisors seem sure of that. It has been confirmed that this is 
new, that is, it isn't the regular cold storage location for Ft.
Leonard Wood, etc. One of the other laborers said that each truck 
had 3500 cases, so today there were nine trucks times 3500 cases
equals 31,500 cases. Anybody know how  many mre's are in a case?  
This would seem to be literally an  enormous amount of food, as if 
there were six mre's in each case, that  would mean 189,000 means 
were unloaded today alone, and today was a short day.  He was called 
back to work at 3:30 in the afternoon, but  the expected trucks still 
didn't arrive.

Note that the laborers apparently have to +spc- a certain
amount of time sitting around and waiting. Since the contract is for
four months, 22 work days a month, and if today's unloading was an  
average work day, and there are at least six mre's per case, then  
we're talking a minimum of 16,632,000 mres. Any way you look at that, 
it is a large amount of prepared food, being tucked securely away  
in a limestone cavern in KCMO.

It's three meals a day for 500,000 people for 11 days, and that's 
the low estimate, since today was deemed a slack day by those doing 
the labor.

 - - - - --
Note: this is from another source... came in after the top portion....

> >>>>>>>>>>>>
I researched MRE's just this evening to learn more about
them. The full meal type MRE comes 12 per case, and the case weighs 17
pounds. So, for doing some math, double the figures you were dealing  
with. Using Robert's math that would come to 33,264,000 meals - 
using 22 work days per  month, for 4 months, and the light work load 
experienced by Robert's friend that particular day.

Assuming 12 per case, that's 2,772,000 cases at 17 pounds per
case equals 47,124,000 pounds of food, or 23,562 tons. That would
mean you could feed 500,000 people 3 meals per day for 22.17 days or
roughly 100,000 people for just over 3 months (about 111 days actually).
These are large numbers indeed and we can all look forward to learning
more about this.  Robert, can you put the local news people on it
to open it up?  Would that be wise or not? I don't know, but if
appropriate, it's one heck of a story they may wish to track down.  
God bless all of you,

<< End of Forwarded message >>
[snip]
Local Y2K Update:

I received a telephone call from a highly credible source.  This 
informant told me that government employees recently attended a Y2K 
meeting in Orange County.  At this meeting, one of the handouts was a 
listing of all the Mormon Canneries.  Even more disturbing was the 
fact, these employees were casually told not to make this public so 
that they could have the necessary time to acquire their long-term 
storage food first.


--------------08FDE2A053FE721F529722FE--






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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 19:38:59 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:38:59 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199809082346.TAA31245@camel8.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03130302b21b96053fd9@[209.66.100.149]>



At 6:40 PM -0700 9/8/98, Eric Cordian wrote:
> I'm amazed Arjen
>Lenstra isn't in the slammer for the "DigiCrime" parody, given the
>"knowlege and experience" of Mr. Investigator here.
>

I'm sometimes surprised I was never arrested for pulling off the "BlackNet"
secrets trading scheme. (Especially as it actually worked as I described
it....and to think some of the folks here think I've never built anything.)

As for the Carl Johnson document that John Young offers, I read it with
great interest, much more interest than I ever could muster for the rants
of Toto/Human Gus-Peter/Truthmonger.

As I'd been deleting nearly all of Toto's stuff unread, I missed all the
stuff about (allegedly) threatening to bomb the RCMP. I recall seeing his
"AP Bot" and "Dead Lucky" items, which came out before I was deleting all
of his stuff.

I suppose I agree with Eric's earlier point (snipped above) that mentioning
the actual names of judges or FBI agents or IRS inspectors in rants about
AP and AP bots is not a wise move. As with Bell's stuff, it makes for a
case that _possibly_ these agents and judges had something to fear. Were I
one of those judges or agents, I would tend to think that _possibly_ my
life was in danger.

Best to leave rants at the general, protected speech level, and to not get
into specifics of names and working habits of agents.

(I make it a point not to bother learning the names of any of these folks,
except high-visibility folks like Diane Feinswine, Janet Reno, Louis Freeh,
etc. This makes it hard for any of my generalized rants to be taken as
direct threats against local judges, agents, lawyers, etc.)

And if Toto or Carl Johnson did in fact plant a bomb....I guess he'll be
extradited to Canada after his trial here in the U.S. for the charges
described. And he may well get off on the U.S. charges, as it seems likely
that experts (like us, ironically) can testify that whatever point Toto
thought he was making, there was no chance that a working "dead pool" was
being demonstrated.

But Toto will probably make a plea, as Bell did.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 20:21:49 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:21:49 +0800
Subject: Gift taxes...
Message-ID: <199809090336.WAA13892@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

>    "The giver is responsible for paying any applicable tax on any large
>    gift," IRS spokesman Steven Pyrek said Monday.
>    
>    A baseball is owned by Major League Baseball until it leaves the
>    field. It is then owned by the fan who comes up with it.
>    
>    A gift tax applies to any property given away that is worth $10,000 or
>    more. The person receiving the gift owes no taxes.
>    
>    Under the federal tax code, the first $625,000 would be exempt because
>    of the lifetime tax credit provided to every individual. So if the
>    ball is deemed to be worth $1 million, the fan would owe at least 40
>    percent of the remaining $375,000, or $150,000, to the government.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 20:33:59 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:33:59 +0800
Subject: Taxes & baseball...
Message-ID: <199809090345.WAA13954@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

It occurs to me that if the fan who caught the ball and then gave it to
McGyer  had to pay a gift tax then so would the NLB, after all it was their
ball until it left the field at which point they give it to the fan who
catches it.

I wonder what made the IRS back down from a cool 1.2M...?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bmm at minder.net  Tue Sep  8 20:41:23 1998
From: bmm at minder.net (BMM)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:41:23 +0800
Subject: Taxes & baseball...
In-Reply-To: <199809090345.WAA13954@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980908233802.1457A-100000@waste.minder.net>



This is a rhetorical question, yes?

On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:

> I wonder what made the IRS back down from a cool 1.2M...?





From techsales at oreilly.com  Tue Sep  8 20:41:39 1998
From: techsales at oreilly.com (techsales at oreilly.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:41:39 +0800
Subject: WebSite Professional 2.3
Message-ID: <199809090329.UAA23899@rock.west.ora.com>




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From petro at playboy.com  Tue Sep  8 20:47:43 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:47:43 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809091556.KAA16265@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03110706b21c595cfe06@[206.189.103.244]>



At 10:56 AM -0500 9/9/98, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:03:25 -0500
>> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
>> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
>
>> 	There already are several, the problem is the cannot be centralized
>> the way oil is.
>That's not really the problem...

	I'd say it is, but hell, I'm paranoid.

>
>> 	Alcohol is acceptable (and in some ways better) than gasoline for
>> cars and motorcycles, but anyone can set up a still and compete with RDS &
>> Standard.
>
>The problem with alcohol is that there isn't enough free land in order grow
>enough plant material to provide the necessary quantities without seriously
>restricting the amount of land available for actual foodstuffs and living
>space (unless you want everyone to move to Black Rock desert or live on the
>top of a mountain).

	There are lots of things you can make alcohol out of. Seaweed, etc.

	There would also be incentive to other countries to produce excess
for importation into the US.

>Alcohol is also much more of a fire hazard than gas. It burns hotter, isn't

	And what would you need to add to it to "color" the flame?

>put out by water spray easily, and burns invisibly (well all right in the
>near-UV).

	Put about 2% detergent (just about any grade will do) into that
"water spray", and the fire goes out quicker, and stays out longer.

>> A mix of solar
>Again not enough land to make it feasible, not to mention the low efficiency
>of even the best panels.

	There are plenty of unused roof tops here in Chicago bouncing free
energy off into the air.

>> wind
>Not enough places in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) where the
>wind blows with sufficient force 18 hours a day to make it economical.

	Again, there are a lot of tall buildings here where the wind is
constantly moving. Also, we have this large, flat, relatively undeveloped
area just to the east of chicago where the wind is constantly at least 10
m.p.h. (from (admittedly imperfect memory) 7 m.p.h. is necessary to run an
electric generator from a windmill) and where no one lives.

	It's called Lake Michigan.

>> coal
>Coal isn't an acceptable substitute, mainly because there isn't enough
>low-sulphur deposits in the world to supply the US, let alone the rest of
>the world. Plus it isn't renewable.

	No, but it is PART of the solution.

>> hydroelectric
>Not enough rivers with sufficient hydrodynamic head to make this work
>for the US let alone the rest of the planet.

	Again, PART of the solution.
>> nuclear
>
>I'll buck the general consensus because I like nuclear energy, however there
>is a single MAJOR caveat, we need fussion and not fission reactors to make
>it economical. The waste problem with fission reactors is enough to vote
>in the negative on them.

	The waste problem goes away of you build a decently stable launch
platform and drop the shit into the sun.

>> and other sources
>cop-out.

	No, it's an inclusive statment. It takes into account things like
your beloved Clathrate deposits, things like the possiblity of launching
"power sats" into orbit (altho I am not real clear on how the energy gets
back down, something about using microwaves <shrug>)

	Also, you ignored, or didn't see the "mix of" statement. Oil CAN be
replaced, and should be. There are plenty of ways to replace the energy
with something else, and there are ways--without modifying lifestyles all
that much--to reduce dependence on oil.

	No, don't look at me to be waving the Big Green Flag, I mean I'm
for clean air as much as the next guy, and I guess trees are kinda nice to
look at, but I'd like to see far more diversity in energy sources, and
investigation into more long term, renewable sources.

>The reality is that the clathrate deposits occur across the entire ocean.
>The existing Magnesium Nodule treaties could be extended to cover the
>countries that don't have coastlines. They are the first renewable,
>occurring in sufficient quantity, and with realizable and economicly
>feasible methods for mining, processing, and distributing to have been put
>on the table.

	Actually it looks like something that could be made in a factory.
Take a methane source (sewage, rotting plant matter) pump it into really
cold water under pressure, and blam.

>As to the gas and oil folk being against them, they're about the only ones
>with an existing infrastructure (ie extracting oil and gas from the sea
>floor) to take advantage of the source, implying that existing changes in
>the infrastructure would be minor.

	Depends on what you want it to replace. The one of the largest uses
of oil is in the transportation sector, and "they" have been pushing
Natural Gas there for years to little effect.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl  Tue Sep  8 21:01:37 1998
From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:01:37 +0800
Subject: Any good hacking sites?
Message-ID: <0022261586779894a81c52a54603b461@anonymous>



On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, M I T Flunky wrote:

> 
> hey all,

Hey, d00d! What be happenin'? My homies and my bro's are just a hangin',
man! We be k-rad kool, d00d!

> 
> any1 know of any good hacking sites that teach u the basics and stuff?

Find somebody who has been the attacker in a recent axe murder. He'll be
more than happy to teach you the basics and stuff, I'm sure, particularly
if you lock yourself in stocks first.

> also, any1 here into AOL hacking???

I prefer a chainsaw, myself. It does cause a bit of a mess, but the mess
is still preferable to the AOLholes like yourself.

> 
> thanx,
> ~Fallen Angel

No pro', bro',
~LamenessMonger

> 
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.

Apparently you don't need a clue either.

> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com

Well, they don't punctuate the end of the sentence, but at least they put
the protocol specifier on.

> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Or at (800) 6NO-CLUE.

LamenessMonger







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep  8 21:04:14 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:04:14 +0800
Subject: Austin: Meet on Wed. Sept. 16, 1998 (new location)
Message-ID: <199809090421.XAA14309@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

The next physical meet will be held on Wed. Sept. 16, 1998 from 7-8pm (or
later).

We are meeting at the Korea House across the street from The Yellow Rose on
N. Lamar. If you need directions please send a request to
austin-cpunks at ssz.com.

I am sure there will be some discussion about Toto as well as the database
project we've been half-heartedly working on (if only work didn't take so
much time).


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  8 21:12:13 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:12:13 +0800
Subject: Netly News on Nutly News (resend)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980909100305.27131D-100000@well.com>





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 05:42:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
To: politech at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Arrest of the Nutly Bomber




http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/0,2326,201980909-14593,00.html

TIME Digital Daily
September 9, 1998 

   The Arrest of the Nutly Bomber 
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
   
   [Part I of a Series For two years a pair of anonymous Net crackpots
   have been posting angry tirades to a cryptography discussion list
   under a takeoff of Netly called "Nutly News." Now the FBI and Royal
   Canadian Mounted Police say that a digital signature connects them to
   a bomb discovered last June in a Canadian courthouse.]
   
   It was about 5 p.m. on August 18. Carl Johnson, 49, was beating the
   heat inside the Rialto Theater in what passes for downtown Tuscon,
   Ariz. That morning a friend had tipped off Johnson that the police    
   were trying to find him, but for now he had something else on his
   mind: his music. The itinerant musician and writer had spent the last
   month furiously scribbling lyrics, friends say, and he wanted a loan
   from someone he knew who worked at the theater. It was for some
   recording work, Johnson explained. This was going be his third album,
   after "My Way or the Highway" and "Please! Stop Me Before I Sing
   Again."
  
   But when Johnson left the Rialto, his musical career was cut short by
   two federal agents from the IRS's internal security division. They
   arrested him on charges of Internet threats against federal judges and
   police. The Canadians wanted Johnson, too, on charges of planting a
   bomb in a Saskatchewan courthouse.








From chatski at gl.umbc.edu  Tue Sep  8 21:17:59 1998
From: chatski at gl.umbc.edu (chatski carl)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:17:59 +0800
Subject: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66...
In-Reply-To: <199809080109.UAA06813@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.96A.980909123416.8520A-100000@umbc9.umbc.edu>



On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:
> .... on some
> sort of bio-weapon test that occurred in '66 in San Francisco. He is
> claiming that deaths resulted.
> Anyone have a clue what he's talking about?

He is probably talking about a test run by the CIA, Navy Etc.

A navy ship in the bay sprayed SF with a 'simulated' BW agent ( Serratia
marcescens - If I remember correctly ).  This was not designed to hurt
people but to see the spread of an aerosolized agent in a real city. 
Monitoring collectors were set up all over the city including in schools
etc.

Several days after the spraying started, in one hospital ( connected with
Stanford I think ), where there was a ward with a number of catheterized
men, some dozen or so men became seriously ill with Serratia infections,
and 2 died.  There was never a case of Serratia infection before this
time.  The military people conducting the experiment did not inform the
hospital physicians even after the men became ill! 



- Carl





From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  8 21:19:40 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:19:40 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809082359.SAA12044@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199809090416.AAA25585@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199809082359.SAA12044 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 09/08/98 
   at 06:59 PM, Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:17:45 -0500
>> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
>> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism

>> planet and take all that fucking oil with them.

>I wonder how the new realization that the calthrate deposits in the ocean
>bottem off the continental shelf make fine fuel and it's replenishable
>and may be of a larger quantity than the oil reserves will effect the
>power balance.

Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  8 21:37:45 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:37:45 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <199809090418.AAA25605@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:

>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.

Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
there?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If at first you don't succeed, work for Microsoft.

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From nobody at nowhere.to  Tue Sep  8 21:38:05 1998
From: nobody at nowhere.to (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:38:05 +0800
Subject: PEDIATRIC ADVISE -  FREE WEBSITE
In-Reply-To: <199809090432.AAA17439@evision.nac.net>
Message-ID: <646ff1bc59610ed0600775274c0a4885@anonymous>



On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:34:04 PDT  Jen at evision.nac.net wrote:

>If you are a parent you owe it to yourself to visit this site. It is the
>greatest relief site for all parents. Dr. Paula is the most non
>judgemental pediatrician I have ever heard of and her site is incredible.
>Every parent question gets answered usualy within a day. 

Dear Dr. Paula
I wonder if you could help me with my problem child.  He is such a sweet
lad really but he does seem to hang out with the wrong crowd.  Only the
other day I caught him reading Toaderpunks whilst laughing maniacly.  Is
there anything I can do?  I have tried the normal things, like getting him
an AOL account, but it isn't working!

I haven't been able to tell a soul about this, but since you claim not to
judge, I thought you'd understand.  Those damn Toaderpunks!  If you ask me
they should all be shot.  I wasn't prying, but I read some of my sons e-mail
the other day.  That's when I found out about the Toaderpunks.  They are all
so rude.  Why, I read one post from a nice AOL guy, asking about some stickers
for his favorite "Rock 'n' Roll" band and they weren't helpful at all!  In
fact, they were down right rude!  Oh and the language they use!  It's all
f*** this and f*** that -- if only their Mothers could hear them.

I was trying to help my son by stopping his subscription to
Toaderpunks, so I sent a message to the command address.  Since this may be
useful to you, I'll tell you what to do (there must be millions of poor kids
in the Toaderpunks trap)

send an electronic message to: cypherpunks at toad.com
and in the body write

GET ME OFF

Whilst this didn't end my sons Toaderpunk subscription, a very well hung
young man named Tim May visited me and "got me off" in the most spectacular
way.  Gosh, I'm getting wet just thinking about that boy!  Anyway Doctor,
I am sure you understand about those kind of things and I am getting a little
off my original question.  As I said, I am sure that information will help
you help a lot of others.

What do I do about my son?



Thanks in advance.


Missy






From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  8 21:47:52 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:47:52 +0800
Subject: Netly News on Nutly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980909054226.7859C-100000@well.com>






http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/0,2326,201980909-14593,00.html

   The Arrest of the Nutly Bomber 
   By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
   
   [Part I of a Series For two years a pair of anonymous Net crackpots
   have been posting angry tirades to a cryptography discussion list
   under a takeoff of Netly called "Nutly News." Now the FBI and Royal
   Canadian Mounted Police say that a digital signature connects them to
   a bomb discovered last June in a Canadian courthouse.]
   
   It was about 5 p.m. on August 18. Carl Johnson, 49, was beating the
   heat inside the Rialto Theater in what passes for downtown Tuscon,
   Ariz. That morning a friend had tipped off Johnson that the police    
   were trying to find him, but for now he had something else on his
   mind: his music. The itinerant musician and writer had spent the last
   month furiously scribbling lyrics, friends say, and he wanted a loan
   from someone he knew who worked at the theater. It was for some
   recording work, Johnson explained. This was going be his third album,
   after "My Way or the Highway" and "Please! Stop Me Before I Sing
   Again."
  
   But when Johnson left the Rialto, his musical career was cut short by
   two federal agents from the IRS's internal security division. They
   arrested him on charges of Internet threats against federal judges and
   police. The Canadians wanted Johnson, too, on charges of planting a
   bomb in a Saskatchewan courthouse.

   [...]






From petro at playboy.com  Tue Sep  8 21:52:41 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:52:41 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199809090140.UAA29195@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <v03110702b21c46b59c74@[206.189.103.244]>



At 9:37 PM -0500 9/8/98, Tim May wrote:
>
>I suppose I agree with Eric's earlier point (snipped above) that mentioning
>the actual names of judges or FBI agents or IRS inspectors in rants about
>AP and AP bots is not a wise move. As with Bell's stuff, it makes for a
>case that _possibly_ these agents and judges had something to fear. Were I
>one of those judges or agents, I would tend to think that _possibly_ my
>life was in danger.

	One could point out that WE have reason to beleive that our lives
and freedoms are in danger.

>Best to leave rants at the general, protected speech level, and to not get
>into specifics of names and working habits of agents.

	That, and don't plant bombs that don't go off.

>But Toto will probably make a plea, as Bell did.

	He may be nuts enough not to.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Sep  8 21:52:44 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:52:44 +0800
Subject: Checking CDR
Message-ID: <199809091748.NAA15881@camel8.mindspring.com>



Those of us on cyberpass.net are not getting mail this
morning so I've subbed to algebra and ssz to see if the
x-posting is working.





From vznuri at netcom.com  Tue Sep  8 21:54:57 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:54:57 +0800
Subject: SCADA in power grid
Message-ID: <199809090318.UAA21915@netcom13.netcom.com>





this is from http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/2439


                     Gary North's Y2K Links and Forums

                            Summary and Comments

                       (feel free to mail this page)
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
       Category:  Power_Grid

           Date:  1998-08-29 13:57:30

        Subject:  The Convenient Lie:

            Link: http://y2ktimebomb.com/PP/RC/dm9834.htm

        Comment:  On August 27, I spoke before a meeting of 500
                  people -- 5% of a local town. At that meeting,
                  representatives of several industries spoke:
                  banking, telephone, electrical power.

                  When pressed by someone in the audience, the
                  representative of the power company insisted they
                  could run the entire company on manual systems
                  without compliant computers. Forget about
                  noncompliant chips. The company can do it manually.

                  I asked him straight: Can they run the SCADA
                  (supervisory control and data acquisition) system
                  without telecommunications? That's the computerized
                  system that tells them how much power is running
                  through the lines. "Yes," he said.

                  A week before I had been told by an engineer with a
                  large urban power company that without SCADA, they
                  would fry the lines permanently. "There is no way
                  we could run the system manually."

                  I guess engineers don't agree.

                  I told the audience this:

                  "No system can be switched to pre-computer manual
                  operations without training. Any outfit that claims
                  that it can be run manually had better have a
                  highly trained technical staff to take over in
                  2000. Does the outfit have a training manual? How
                  much training money has it budgeted?"

                  Any outfit that does not have the staff being
                  trained right now is lying when it says that it can
                  be run manually. It cannot be run manually by
                  phantom workers. The men who knew how to run it
                  manually were fired 30 years ago. The manual
                  systems were replaced. The industry did not spend
                  hundreds of billions of dollars on computerization
                  so as to have two separate operation systems. They
                  spent the money to get rid of manual systems.

                  Any time you hear some representative tell you his
                  public utility can be run manually, ask five
                  questions:

                  1. How many trained personnel do you need,
                  including substitutes, to run your system manually?

                  2. How many are currently undergoing training for
                  this task, and how many have finished it?

                  3. May I come in and see your training manual that
                  you use to train these people?

                  4. How much money has your company budgeted to
                  train this staff?

                  5. How much has already been spent?

                  You must call their bluff. They're lying. They have
                  no intention of trying to run anything manually.
                  It's just a PR ploy. It's Monica Lewinsky syndrome.
                  Nobody suffers any consequences for lying to the
                  public.

                  But can't they be sued for lying, i.e., misleading
                  the public? Not if all companies in the industry
                  collapse for the same reason. They will share the
                  blame, or pass it on to a higher authority: "An act
                  of God."

                  When you catch one of them in a lie this big, you
                  can rest assured: he knows that it can't be fixed
                  by anyone, so he knows he can't be successfully
                  sued.

                  Training to convert to manual systems won't work,
                  of course. The power industry can't be run
                  manually, and it's too late to fix the code.
                  Besides, nobody in the industry will pay any
                  attention to such warnings. But at least it lets
                  the industry know that you don't believe the lie
                  any more.

                  Dick Mills, who is a public optimist about the
                  power grid, recently issued a warning to the
                  industry: begin contingency planning. This includes
                  training. This is the best advice that anyone could
                  give the power industry -- not because the advice
                  could work at this late date, but because it's time
                  to call their bluff.

                  This is from Westergaard's site.

                  * * * * * * * * *

                  . . . Isn't there already a national emergency plan
                  in place for such as critical infrastructure such
                  as power? No, not to my knowledge. Please write and
                  tell me if I'm wrong.

                  Never before, has there been a threat to the power
                  system of such sweeping scope and magnitude as Y2K.
                  There was no need for a national electric-power
                  emergency plan. Prudence requires that we have such
                  a plan, not only for Y2K but also for other future
                  threats.

                  I foresee that this plan will need to span
                  national, state, local, public, private, utility
                  and non-utility boundaries. How might we accomplish
                  that? I've been told that existing presidential
                  executive orders allow the entire industry to be
                  nationalized at the stroke of a pen in case of
                  emergency. Thus the authority exists, but it will
                  do no good unless there are plans and trained
                  organizations in place to use it effectively.

                  There are numerous mitigating possibilities to be
                  considered. That is true of not only to electric
                  power but also to all industries and all facets of
                  the Y2K problem. . . .

                  It is already too late to finish Y2K remediation
                  for many companies, but it is not too late for
                  disaster preparations. To actually get practical
                  and practiced disaster preparedness plans in place,
                  we must accomplish three things. I see these three
                  as my working goals. I hope you do the same. . . .

                  We must plan, train, and practice the
                  implementation of emergency procedures. Those are
                  key elements of all emergency services like fire
                  and police. In the Y2K case, we have to combine
                  strangers into teams, invent new roles, and
                  practice. That takes time.

           Link:  http://y2ktimebomb.com/PP/RC/dm9834.htm

      ----------------------------------------------------------------
                       Return to Category: Power_Grid

                         Return to Main Categories

                            Return to Home Page





From petro at playboy.com  Tue Sep  8 21:56:11 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:56:11 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <v03110703b21c4777ca38@[206.189.103.244]>



At 11:25 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:
>
>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>
>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>there?

	Point is, the "Arabs" didn't start it, the UN/European leaders (US,
UK, FR, and RU) did.


	If I move you off your property at the point of a gun, should I
expect you to _like_ it, even if I gave you what I consider "fair market
value"?

	Oh, and the about should have read:

	No, more like a "get off our fucking land".

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 21:57:20 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:57:20 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <v03130305b21bb44e5bb2@[209.66.100.149]>



At 9:25 PM -0700 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
\
>In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:
>
>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>
>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>there?

Well, I take a lot more seriously the claims of a Palestinian orange grower
in Jaffa who is farming land that has been in his family for many
generations than I do the claim of an Auschwitz survivor from Krakow who
claims that YHVH or some other bearded Sky Father gave his lineage the
entire land 3000 years ago.

What was done to the Jews by Hitler in WWII was horrible. But the solution
was not to take ethnic Northern Europeans (much more of their genetic
material is Russian, Latvian, Polish, northern European in general, than is
Semitic) and resettle them on the lands of people who've actually been
living in the area and farming it for at least the past several
generations, and probably closer to the past few thousand years. A claim
that Yahweh "gave" Palestine to those who have been living in Poland for a
thousand years is just pure bullshit.

And it wouldn't have happened had the victorious superpowers decided the
sand niggers in Palestine could be kicked off their land. (I have no beef
with those Jews who peacefully bought land in Palestine prior to this mass
resettlement.)

Frankly, I've always thought the suitable place for the Allies to have
resettled the Jews--to the extent it was our business at all--was Germany
itself. Plenty of conquered villages, plenty of seized castles and villas
and chalets.

And if the Jews thought this was too "icky," to be resettled in the land of
their oppression, and insisted instead that the Alllies push the sand
niggers out of their orange groves...well, fuck 'em. Given 'em a loaf of
bread and wish them good luck and send them on their way.

(And let us not forget the actions of the Stern Gang and such in blowing up
the King David Hotel.)

The chickens are coming home to roost.

--Tim May


"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Sep  8 21:59:29 1998
From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:59:29 +0800
Subject: IP: Encryption Expert Says U.S. Laws Led to Renouncing of    Citizenship
In-Reply-To: <v0401173cb2186ae5e832@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <35F633A6.B307772A@stud.uni-muenchen.de>



David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 11:01 AM 9/7/98 +0100, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>
> >Let's wait and see whether AES will be genuinely exportable.

> 
> Surely you jest.  The head AES honcho will send you (in .de) the CD of the
> english
> specs, but not the one with the code.  Like it matters.

I suppose one should not forget one aspect if AES is to become an
ISO standard. There will be different implementations but one
needs validations. For compilers there are validation centres
run by certain institutes authorized by some national standard
organizations (certificates of validation are issued). Similar 
facilities should be assured for the future AES. Implementation 
as such can't in my opinion be a big problem outside of US.

M. K. Shen





From petro at playboy.com  Tue Sep  8 22:01:20 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:01:20 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199809082346.TAA31245@camel8.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <v03110700b21c426498f5@[206.189.103.244]>



At 8:40 PM -0500 9/8/98, Eric Cordian wrote:
>> Thanks to anonymous we offer the arrest warrant and
>> complaint against Carl Edward Johnson:
>
>I conclude:
>
>A. There actually exist federal investigators who have nothing
>   better to do with their lives than read the complete writings
>   of the Performance Artists Sometimes Known as "Toto," and
>   engage in endless mental masturbation over the hidden messages
>   they imagine to be contained therein.

	He <allegedly allegedly allegedly> planted a bomb. Like Mr. Bell,
this is a very dumb thing to do, especially when the bomb didn't go off.


>B. When writing parody on the subject of AP, it is best not to
>   employ the names of actual federal slackers, lest the clueless
>   investigators actually believe them to be targeted in some fashion.

	If they had a sense of humor, they wouldn't work for the government.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From bmm at minder.net  Tue Sep  8 22:03:39 1998
From: bmm at minder.net (BMM)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:03:39 +0800
Subject: Checking CDR
In-Reply-To: <199809091748.NAA15881@camel8.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980909135324.8453A-100000@waste.minder.net>



Looks like rigel.cyberpass.net has been down for about 24 hours.  Hardware
problems?

On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, John Young wrote:

> Those of us on cyberpass.net are not getting mail this
> morning so I've subbed to algebra and ssz to see if the
> x-posting is working.
> 





From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  8 22:04:42 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:04:42 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03110703b21c4777ca38@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <199809091801.OAA04010@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03110703b21c4777ca38@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/09/98 
   at 09:58 AM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:

>At 11:25 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:
>>
>>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>>
>>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>>there?

>	Point is, the "Arabs" didn't start it, the UN/European leaders (US, UK,
>FR, and RU) did.

Both the Palestinians and the Jews living in Trans-Jordan wanted their own
country. The UN resolution divided up the land based on population and
gave each group their own country. Israel declared their independence, the
Palestinians listened to the Grand Mufti and join in the holy war to wipe
out the Jews. The Arabs lost, too bad, game over.

And interesting note to the whole palestinian "issue" is that the majority
of the population of Jordan is palestinian!! And long before the Intifada
the PLO tried to take over the government of Jordan and were embroiled in
civil war for most of the 60's and early 70's. The Jordanian Arabs finally
kick the PLO out in the early 70's (71 maybe 72).


>	If I move you off your property at the point of a gun, should I expect
>you to _like_ it, even if I gave you what I consider "fair market value"?

This re-wright of history might give you warm fuzzies but no one was moved
at gun point off their land (at least not until the Arabs started the
war). The Jews that emigrated to Trans-Jordan/Palestine *purchased* the
land from the Arabs that were living there. Even after the war the
majority of palestinians left on their own.

None of the current Arab countries existed until the British carved up
their conquered territory after WWI. If Israel is not "legitimate" because
of UK/UN involvement does it follow that all of the Arab states that were
formed at this time are also illegitimate? Perhaps we should should
re-unite the Ottoman Empire? How far back in history do you want to go to
find the "legitimate" territorial boundaries? Persian? Roman? Israel?
Egyptian? Sumerian?

I find it quite hypocritical of Americans who see the Israelites as
occupiers and oppressors but would be outraged at calls to give back the
south-west to Mexico. Tim, you want to give your ranch to some Mexican
family since the Americans took that land from them? but then the mexicans
would have to give that land back to some deserving "native" Americans as
they took that land from them. But then again we would have to sift
through the thousands of years of tribal warfare and migration to find the
one true owners of the land.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Windows with bullet-proof glass.

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Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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uQhCtPoV2017EdU9c0AcI1PtJ+Bat3wNrZsBMgcnRxA+elgBLe9EbI7kCLIiTr6d
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lSpcGvvHVjg=
=jXCe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 22:05:14 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:05:14 +0800
Subject: RUSSIAN DEFECTOR WARNS OF PRE-POSITIONED PORTABLE NUKES
In-Reply-To: <199809082136.VAA01195@earth.wazoo.com>
Message-ID: <199809090406.VAA31614@always.got.net>




An interesting report from a GRU defector. How much of it is true? How
much is rehashed?

In any case, somebody must have cursed us, because we truly do live in
interesting times. Y2K, terrorism, busts of cypherpunks, martial law
contingency plans, a meltdown of Asian and Russian economies (with Latin
America apparently headed down the same drain), Asama bin Laden, VX nerve
gas, Ebola being developed in weapons labs, and on and on.

I'm glad I live far away from safe targets and have accumulated enough
supplies to "hunker" down for a long time.

There are two articles here, both interesting.

--Tim May


In article <199809082136.VAA01195 at earth.wazoo.com>, Anonymous
<nobody at earth.wazoo.com> wrote:

> Colonel Stanislav Lunev, Russian GRU defector talks about the BACKPACK NUKES
> on KSFO, Geoff Metcalf Show
> 
> KSFO 560 AM San Francisco, Geoff Metcalf Show
> 
> GUEST:Colonel Stanislav Lunev, Russian GRU defector, author of "Through the
> Eyes of the Enemy"
> 
> SUMMARY OF LUNEV'S REMARKS
> 
> Boris Yelstin is a mafia tool, an alcoholic who has not at all decreased his
> habit of drinking who "cannot appear more than one hour in public or he
> looses control over himself". He is a "decoration of power" controlled by
> criminals and industrial tycoons who rule Russia behind the scenes.
> 
> "Russia as Friend" is a theme slavishly pursued by breathless Western-types,
> but in fact is an illusion. Only 2 months ago a large secret Soviet Air Base
> conducted a very large-scale simulation of all-out nuclear with the West. A
> similar exercise undertaken by Soviet Northern Fleet only 2 weeks ago.
> 
> In case of outbreak of war (something that Lunev sees as a greater danger
> NOW than at any time in the past), portable containers of chemical,
> biological, and nuclear for use by Spetnaz against command and control
> centers, water and air supplies, and specific individuals in a "decapitory
> strike"-type scenario.
> 
> Prior to hostilities, "students and businessmen" infiltrate into the US
> using regular airlines, discard their disguises, and proceed to weapon
> storage sites and then onto final targets.
> 
> 100 of these weapons are stored outside the former Soviet Union.
> 
> 57 main cells of industrial techno-snooping exist around the San Francisco
> Bay Area.
> 
> In February �97, Boris Yelstin gave a special order to Russian intelligence
> to dramatically increase industrial espionage against the USA. Lunev
> estimates that just in the last several years, espionage within America has
> roughly doubled.
> 
> Lunev indicates that China and Russia have entered into substantial, formal
> cooperation in their espionage efforts against the USA. He adds that in the
> outbreak of war, both countries could fight together against America.
> 
> Metcalf closes by saying that Lunev's book can be ordered by calling
> 1-888-606-0614.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [www.FreeRepublic.com]
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> USG Ignores Soviet Special Troops Inside Our Borders
> by Neil C. Livingston and M. K. Pilgrim
> 
> The following scenario outlining typical Spetsnaz-type operations
> prior to a Soviet main-force incursion into a foreign country comes
> from unclassified U.S. government documents.
> 
> "An unconventional warefare scenario: The following hypothetical
> scenario illustrates the employment concept for the full exploitation
> of Soviet UW [unconventional warefare] assets.
> 
> "In support of a coordinated attack, air-dropped or air-landed GRU
> special purpose teams would be introduced into their respective target
> areas some days prior to H-hour. Special KGB sabotage teams would have
> been infiltrated over a longer period of time by clandestine methods
> to include the use of international commercial travel. These sabotage
> teams could be prepared to begin their operations well before the
> enemy's rear area security apparatus can be fully alerted. In the
> pre-war period, some KGB personnel will seek to undermine national
> resistance through political measures.
> 
> "Sabotage teams will begin isolated acts of sabotage such as
> destroying a key bridge. In addition, KGB teams will attempt to create
> chaos at major ports and distrupt communications.
> 
> "Shortly before D-day, additional sabotage teams will be inserted and
> the majority of `sleeper agents' activated.
> 
> "Sabotage equipment can be smuggled into a country by any number of
> secret methods and stored in hidden, but easily accessible, caches.
> Smuggling techniques may include the offshore dropping of waterproof
> containers from ships and submarines. In accordance with the
> prearranged signals, they will be recovered and stored by clandestine
> support personnel.
> 
> "Sensitive or fragil equipment (electronics material, detonators, and
> communication devices) can be brought into the country by diplomatic
> pouch and made available to the teams through established procedures.
> 
> "Teams will attempt tp place their explosives and incendiary devices
> on the targets and set them to detonate at H-hour. All efforts will be
> made to prevent association of these acts with the USSR in order to
> maintain the element of surprise for the main attack. Immediately
> prior to H-hour, the UW teams will prepare to:
>   * Locate and destroy nuclear capable weaponry.
>   * Jam radar installations.
>   * Kidnap or assassinate key political-military leadership.
>   * Seize or destroy radio and TV broadcasting facilities.
> 
> "At H-hour a wide spectrum of sabotage actions will be initiated."
> 
> 
> http://www.icom.net/~tachyon/military/spetsnaz.html
> Soldier of Fortune
> January 1988
> 
> SOF SOVIET SPECIAL OPS
> SPETSNAZ INVADES AMERICA
> USG Ignores Soviet Special Troops Inside Our Borders





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 22:07:28 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:07:28 +0800
Subject: If there's a trial will some of us be witnesses?
Message-ID: <v03130304b21bb25ce70a@[209.66.100.149]>




If Carl Johnson comes to trial, presumably both sides will call expert
witnesses.

So, who will these witnesses be? Ironically, we are almost certainly the
most qualified witnesses on the planet in these issues.

However, I expect we are too disreputable, to either side, to be called.
Instead, they'll likely call on peripheral players like Dorothy Denning to
explain to the jury what AP is. Or perhaps the "Science Applications Inc."
lightweight who attempted to analyze anonymity and remailers for a
conference paper a year or two ago.

Food for thought.

I'm not sure how I'd react if either side called on me to act as witness.
And if they subpoenaed me, I suppose I'd have to spend a few kilobucks to
hire some lawyer to explain to me how and when I could take the Fifth.
(That's what it's come to, with lawyers needed at every stage.)

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From guy at panix.com  Tue Sep  8 22:11:57 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:11:57 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
Message-ID: <199809091550.LAA03183@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
   >
   >   As I'd been deleting nearly all of Toto's stuff unread, I missed all the
   >   stuff about (allegedly) threatening to bomb the RCMP.

That's probably true for most of us...it was an unbelievable volume of crap
he sent the list. (as opposed to my crap ;-)

   >   Best to leave rants at the general, protected speech level, and to not get
   >   into specifics of names and working habits of agents.

For example:

   #  Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:39:01 -0700
   #  To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
   #  From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
   #  Subject: Tax silliness
   #  
   #  Fox News is reporting that the IRS has said it may seek to
   #  assess "gift taxes" if the guy who recovered Mark McGwire's 61st home
   #  baseball gives the ball back to Mark McGwire.
   #  
   #  Those fuckers in D. C. need to be put out of our misery.

Yeah, much better, Tim. ;-)

But don't start holding rallies and saying it in public in NYC,
or Rudolph Giuliani might have you arrested.

----

http://jya.com/usa-v-cej-wc.htm

>    8. On December 9, 1997, an anonymous message was posted to the
>    Cypherpunks Internet mail group with the subject listed as "Encrypted
>    InterNet DEATH THREAT!!! / ATTN: Ninth District Judges / PASSWORD:
>    sog"[.] The body of the message was encrypted with the publicly
>    available encryption software PGP, and was initially unreadable. Using
>    PGP software and the password shown in the subject line of the
>    message, I was able to decrypt the message, which contained a
>    rambling, five-page statement, including the following:

That would appear to be this post:

   http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.97.12.04-97.12.10/msg00356.html

Entirely unexplained is how one goes from passphrase "sog" (Shit on government?)
to decrypting the PGP message.

What public or private key was used?

>    9. I noted that this message contained a PGP digital signature. From
>    my training and experience, I am aware that this digital signature is
>    used as a way to authenticate digital documents to make sure that they
>    are authored by the purported author and that no one has tampered with
>    them. When I checked the signature using only PGP software, the PGP
>    program was unable to identify it.

What key...?

>    Only July 1, 1998, Royal Canadian
>    Mounted Police (RCMP) Investigator Steve Foster provided me with a PGP
>    "Secret Key Ring" which he stated he had obtained from a computer
>    which Canadian Customs authorities had seized from an individual by
>    the name of CARL EDWARD JOHNSON. [A "secret key ring" is a
>    user-generated code which allows for the encryption (and later
>    authentication) of computer-generated documents.] When I checked the
>    digital signature on the Internet death threat using the PGP software
>    and JOHNSON'S secret key ring, the computer identified the signature
>    as one of the signature keys stored in JOHNSON'S computer. Because
>    both the "private" and "public" portions of the "key" were stored on
>    JOHNSON'S computer, the message can be authenticated as having been
>    generated by the person who possessed this "secret key" and knew the
>    correct password. In other words, only the person possessing the
>    secret key found on JOHNSON'S computer could have generated the "death
>    threat" message.

Sparky got it wrong.

Many people could have the same public/secret key pairs, all they
have to do is give them out.

And you don't authenticate messages with the "secret key" in standard use.

This person seems to have no clue, after months of tracking, how
basic public key encryption software works.

In fact, the key ring could be edited to have a fake secret key
and the public key that works as the digital signature for the
posted message.

More questions: did they get the passphrase for his computer's
PGP secret key? How? And why did RCMP customs seize his computer?

---guy





From jhvo at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  8 22:11:58 1998
From: jhvo at earthlink.net (Jim Van Over)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:11:58 +0800
Subject: PGP5.5.5 Problem
Message-ID: <35F6A8B2.CCB6D9FF@earthlink.net>



I am seeking assistance with a PGP 5.5.5 system and noting your comments
on the net I thought it might be possible for you to help me with a
solution.

I have been using PGP5.5.5, successfully, for the past four months.
However, beginning three days ago I began experiencing a problem.  I am
using Netscape Navigator and the Netscape Message Center.  The problem:
When I receive a PGP message I copy it to the clipboard, but, when I
depress the "decrypt and verify" line on the PGP tool bar the screen for
the "pass phrase" flashes briefly on the screen and disappears.  The
same thing happens when I use the PGP tools.  The PGP tool bar first
referred to is the lock icon at the bottom of the screen.  I have
compared my public key with the key from which I receive messages and
they are identical.  I am able to encrypt a message to myself and then
decrypt it without any problem.  It is only when I receive a message
from my other computer does the problem exist.

I would very much appreciate any ideas you may have as how to correct
this problem.  Please make your solution as basic as possible as I am
not as "computer literate" as I need to be in order to understand most
explanations.

Thank You

Jim Van Over





From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep  8 22:17:20 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:17:20 +0800
Subject: wired on y2k
In-Reply-To: <199809080235.TAA23415@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04011703b21c48c599ad@[139.167.130.247]>



At 1:53 PM -0400 on 9/8/98, Michael Motyka wrote:


> Water? Met a reactor designer from Los Alamos once who lived in some
> super but isolated place in the Sangre De Christos. He had to drill some
> 3K ft for water. VERY EXPENSIVE.

Being 3k feet above the floor of the Rio Grande Valley will kinda do that
to ya...

I prefer northeast Lincoln County, myself...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From edsmith at IntNet.net  Tue Sep  8 22:37:29 1998
From: edsmith at IntNet.net (Edwin E. Smith)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:37:29 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199809082346.TAA31245@camel8.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980908230841.007f4360@mailhost.IntNet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I read the arrest warrant and a couple of things strike me as 
strange.

1. Why would anyone post an encrypted message along with the password 
to decrypt it?

2. I thought the public portion of a key was required to authenticate 
a signature, the secret part is only used to sign a message.

I believe that anyone who is now subscribed to the cypherpunks list 
is now under surveilance. I suspected that this might be true but now 
my belief is confirmed.

Edwin



At 07:40 PM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Thanks to anonymous we offer the arrest warrant and
>complaint against Carl Edward Johnson:
>
>   http://jya.com/usa-v-cej-wc.htm  (23K)
>
>List Cypherpunks is spotlighted by the IRS complainant,
>Jeff Gordon, who made Jim Bell famous. The list is 
>quoted, logged, tracked, and cited for its hosting alleged death 
>threat messages against federal officials, which were
>PGP-authenticated and -decoded, and their style and content 
>assessed for identity of the author, along with other allegations 
>by the RCMP on what Carl may or may not have done up north 
>and by the Secret Service on Carl may or may not have said 
>out west.
>
>We have also been told that Carl is known as "The King
>of Country Porn" among admiring fans of his music.
>
>Whether this has anything to do with the little-known person 
>we're seeking information about is a mystery.
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNfXxN0mNf6b56PAtEQLWKgCgiU1Gxehlqmbo2/z99YEOHA3unKUAnjbL
8u1MirEV69rZ2ZGvf3GH8wIt
=7cvz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From stuffed at stuffed.net  Wed Sep  9 13:39:25 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The full Monica: Novel new 'service'/Collectors' issue - New interface tomorrow
Message-ID: <19980909172510.14118.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


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       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/9/   <----

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       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/9/   <----





From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  8 22:41:08 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:41:08 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03130305b21bb44e5bb2@[209.66.100.149]>
Message-ID: <199809091840.OAA04706@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03130305b21bb44e5bb2@[209.66.100.149]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 09:40 PM, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> said:

>And it wouldn't have happened had the victorious superpowers decided the
>sand niggers in Palestine could be kicked off their land. (I have no beef
>with those Jews who peacefully bought land in Palestine prior to this
>mass resettlement.)

Sorry Tim, you need to re-check your history.

No one was kicked off their land until *after* war broke out in '45. All
land occupied by the Jews before that was *purchased* from the Arabs
living there. There was also a large percentage of land that was either
desert or swaps that was reclaimed by the Jews and turned into productive
farm land. Tel Aviv was nothing but sand and scrub brush before the Jews
started building there (there was the Ancient city of Jaffo which Tel Aviv
has now encompassed but it took decades of expansion before Tel Aviv
reached that far south).

After the various battles of this 50 year war large percentages of the
Palestinian population left Israelie held territory, but this had more to
do with the Arab leaders calling for them to do so (and their not wanting
to live under Israelie rule) than it did with the Jews pushing them out.

Similar migrations were seen when India and Pakistan were created. Large
portions of Moslem population that were living in India moved to Pakistan
despite Ghandi's calls for them to stay.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: One man's Windows are another man's walls.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNfbNiY9Co1n+aLhhAQGZ2AQAgWGUujzGbVvq6uhqnE4fEabsvZCJiYqP
J5MCk3+Z/FJ/ufV37pOlDlBjApPBl87kVmrDdbzlYSRizSsF5Y2dttJ+X5gskeWp
sbXoPdAH7IWTm0AVCzhYJQCS0nO+Af1UT6mLSYl4v4RAmVC3wVIqvmz8lf0eRpLd
JjYMsLMyHRA=
=G2i7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From nobody at lo14.wroc.pl  Tue Sep  8 22:46:52 1998
From: nobody at lo14.wroc.pl (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:46:52 +0800
Subject: Any good hacking sites?
Message-ID: <4abeb8cbbcd0d664e6c810ce33e4f40f@anonymous>



M I T wrote:
> ...
> also, any1 here into AOL hacking???
> 

Oh, this is almost _too_ easy...

Yeah, we know about AOL hacking... First, you get a couple of million clueless fucktards like yourself together and give all of them the same 800-number to dial in... Watch what follows:

<closeup of two fuckholes; if breathing weren't an autonomic response, they'd both be dead>

bzzzt... bzzzt... bzzzt... <fx: busy signal>

Lamer #1: "Hey, d00d, whatcha doin?"

bzzzt... bzzzt... bzzzt... 

Lamer #2: "I'm hacking AOL, man."

bzzzt... bzzzt... bzzzt... 

Lamer #1: "Whoa! C00l, d00d! Can I like, watch?"

bzzzt... bzzzt... bzzzt... 

Lamer #2: "Sure, man."

<cut to screen showing WinBlows "Starfield Simulation" screensaver>

...

Any questions?






From nobody at replay.com  Tue Sep  8 23:10:10 1998
From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:10:10 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
Message-ID: <199809091908.VAA07970@replay.com>



> Why would you claim only one person possessed the secret key? As you
> doubtlessly know, some of the TruthMonger secret keys have been posted
> to Cypherpunks anonymously. This is not authentication. Thank you.

Prove it.  Post the archived message where these secret keys were posted.
Let's see the one which signed:

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.97.12.04-97.12.10/msg00356.html

Note to the clueless guy at panix.com, who asks:
> Entirely unexplained is how one goes from passphrase "sog" (Shit on government?)
> to decrypting the PGP message.

I'm impressed.  You're actually stupider than Jeff Gordon, the IRS flunky.
He was able to figure it out, so why don't you try.  Ask your kindergarten
teacher to give you a gold star once you fumble your way to the answer.





From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  8 23:15:46 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:15:46 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b21c426498f5@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980909121406.27131X-100000@well.com>



Well, there's a little more to the "bomb" incident than that. Read
tomorrow's Netly News report on the Nutly News bomber for more info...

-Declan


On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Petro wrote:

> 
> At 8:40 PM -0500 9/8/98, Eric Cordian wrote:
> >> Thanks to anonymous we offer the arrest warrant and
> >> complaint against Carl Edward Johnson:
> >
> >I conclude:
> >
> >A. There actually exist federal investigators who have nothing
> >   better to do with their lives than read the complete writings
> >   of the Performance Artists Sometimes Known as "Toto," and
> >   engage in endless mental masturbation over the hidden messages
> >   they imagine to be contained therein.
> 
> 	He <allegedly allegedly allegedly> planted a bomb. Like Mr. Bell,
> this is a very dumb thing to do, especially when the bomb didn't go off.
> 
> 
> >B. When writing parody on the subject of AP, it is best not to
> >   employ the names of actual federal slackers, lest the clueless
> >   investigators actually believe them to be targeted in some fashion.
> 
> 	If they had a sense of humor, they wouldn't work for the government.
> 
> petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
> petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
>                                               They REALLY
> Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  8 23:16:59 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:16:59 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson's private key
In-Reply-To: <ed4d64ff287d4e98c0e76cdc3d0e33cf@anonymous>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980909120926.27131W-100000@well.com>



I make that point in my article, but have not seen truthmonger's private
key posted. Care to forward it to me?

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/0,2326,201980909-14593,00.html


On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Anonymous wrote:

> Dear Mr Gordon,
> 
>    When I checked the
>    digital signature on the Internet death threat using the PGP software
>    and JOHNSON'S secret key ring, the computer identified the signature
>    as one of the signature keys stored in JOHNSON'S computer. Because
>    both the "private" and "public" portions of the "key" were stored on
>    JOHNSON'S computer, the message can be authenticated as having been
>    generated by the person who possessed this "secret key" and knew the
>    correct password. In other words, only the person possessing the
>    secret key found on JOHNSON'S computer could have generated the "death
>    threat" message.
> 
> Why would you claim only one person possessed the secret key? As you
> doubtlessly know, some of the TruthMonger secret keys have been posted
> to Cypherpunks anonymously. This is not authentication. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 





From petro at playboy.com  Tue Sep  8 23:22:46 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:22:46 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
Message-ID: <v0311070bb21c8458165b@[206.189.103.244]>



At 11:52 AM -0500 9/9/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <v03110703b21c4777ca38@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/09/98
>   at 09:58 AM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:
>>At 11:25 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:>>>In
>><v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>>>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:
>>>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>>>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>>>there?
>>	Point is, the "Arabs" didn't start it, the UN/European leaders (US, UK,
>>FR, and RU) did.
>Both the Palestinians and the Jews living in Trans-Jordan wanted their own
>country. The UN resolution divided up the land based on population and
>gave each group their own country. Israel declared their independence, the
>Palestinians listened to the Grand Mufti and join in the holy war to wipe
>out the Jews. The Arabs lost, too bad, game over.
>
>And interesting note to the whole palestinian "issue" is that the majority
>of the population of Jordan is palestinian!! And long before the Intifada
>the PLO tried to take over the government of Jordan and were embroiled in
>civil war for most of the 60's and early 70's. The Jordanian Arabs finally
>kick the PLO out in the early 70's (71 maybe 72).
>
>
>>	If I move you off your property at the point of a gun, should I expect
>>you to _like_ it, even if I gave you what I consider "fair market value"?
>
>This re-wright of history might give you warm fuzzies but no one was moved
>at gun point off their land (at least not until the Arabs started the
>war). The Jews that emigrated to Trans-Jordan/Palestine *purchased* the
>land from the Arabs that were living there. Even after the war the
>majority of palestinians left on their own.

	Ok, I'm rewriting history, you say IN THE SAME POST:

The UN resolution divided up the land based on population and gave each
group their own country.

	--and--

The Jews that emigrated to Trans-Jordan/Palestine *purchased* the land from
the Arabs that were living there.

	So tell me, is there a difference between being _told_ you will
sell your house and move, and deciding you really would prefer to live
elsewhere? Oh, and when this artifical coutry was set up, did EVERYONE have
equal say in the government, or were certain Northern Europeans of jewish
faith considered more equal. Of course, being given the short end of the
political and economic stick couldn't be considered an incitement.


>None of the current Arab countries existed until the British carved up
>their conquered territory after WWI. If Israel is not "legitimate" because
>of UK/UN involvement does it follow that all of the Arab states that were
>formed at this time are also illegitimate? Perhaps we should should

	The region was carved up using an existing population, not by
importing one from a different country.

	Like Mr. May, I have no problems with anyone who wants to live
anywhere in peace and co-existence.

	The Israeli government is not interested in that, if it were
politically possible, they'd do the same to the Palistanians as the Germans
tried to do to them.

>I find it quite hypocritical of Americans who see the Israelites as
>occupiers and oppressors but would be outraged at calls to give back the
>south-west to Mexico. Tim, you want to give your ranch to some Mexican
>family since the Americans took that land from them? but then the mexicans
>would have to give that land back to some deserving "native" Americans as
>they took that land from them. But then again we would have to sift
>through the thousands of years of tribal warfare and migration to find the
>one true owners of the land.

	You seem to be saying that Conquest by Force Of Arms is acceptable,
then the PLO is still trying to take back what they lost.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph  Tue Sep  8 23:39:24 1998
From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:39:24 +0800
Subject: question...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980909140109.13630A-100000@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>



What is the TEMPEST? (just an overview)

What do enciphered images look like?



Thank you.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some people they might say that I'm hard to get to know.
I go my own sweet way, well that maybe so.
Something about the crowd that makes me walk alone. 
I never had a need in me to be the party's life and soul.

It's me Bernie.
metaphone at altavista.net
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  8 23:47:43 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:47:43 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks as a Continuing Criminal Enterprise?
In-Reply-To: <199809082136.VAA01195@earth.wazoo.com>
Message-ID: <v03130306b21bbb7e0c01@[209.66.100.149]>




Could our group be charged as a "continuing criminal enterprise" under the
RICO statute?

It occurs to me that if Carl Johnson, who is linked several times to our
group/list in the court documents, is successfully prosecuted,then the Feds
may be able to cite both Bell and Johnson as evidence of a conspiracy.

Which probably wouldn't be too hard to prove, as many of us have admitted
to conspiring mightily to undermine various institutions. (And we even use
encypted e-mail, the very essence of a secret conspiracy.)

It might be fun to see them try this. Would they charge some of us as
ringleaders? Or would they declare the entity itself an illegal
organization? (As they have done with various cultural, political, and even
religous groups, like Hezbollah, the Aum religion, etc.)

Interesting times.

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com  Wed Sep  9 14:50:47 1998
From: CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com (CTIA Daily News)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM - September 9, 1998
Message-ID: <199809092038.PAA04335@revnet3.revnet.com>



CTIA�s Daily News From WOW-COM was not circulated yesterday and today because
of a wireline telephone system failure that is disrupting service to the
Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association building in Washington, D.C. 
We regret the inconvenience this may have caused you and look forward to
resuming the Daily News service as soon as possible. 





From jimg at mentat.com  Wed Sep  9 00:06:11 1998
From: jimg at mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:06:11 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson's private key
Message-ID: <199809092006.NAA10324@zendia.mentat.com>



Declan skribis:
> I make that point in my article, but have not seen truthmonger's private
> key posted. Care to forward it to me?

I stopped paying attention to most of Truthmonger's spew, but did
collect one private key it posted, under the name "Earmonger", since I
was doing PGP experiments at the time.  I think this one doesn't have
an associated passphrase, which would make forging with it quite
simple.  I sort of think more of its private keys were posted, but I
didn't keep any others.  This does, however, establish a pattern of
behavior suggesting it didn't keep private keys strictly private.

IIRC many of TM's messages were simply file-encrypted with an openly
posted passphrase, which doesn't take a rocket scientist to crack.

	Jim Gillogly

--------------------------------------------

Earmonger key, clipped last year:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=SVmn
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  9 00:06:21 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:06:21 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v03130305b21bb44e5bb2@[209.66.100.149]>
Message-ID: <v03130300b21c8c598f73@[209.66.100.149]>



At 11:25 AM -0700 9/9/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:


>After the various battles of this 50 year war large percentages of the
>Palestinian population left Israelie held territory, but this had more to
>do with the Arab leaders calling for them to do so (and their not wanting
>to live under Israelie rule) than it did with the Jews pushing them out.


Yes, many farmers and others left the war zone  in 1948 to stay with
relatives and friends and such in safer areas. Can anyone blame them?

Ah, but now they and their children and grandchildren and
great-grandchildren live in tents in refugee camps for a simple reason:
they were not allowed to return to their homes and land.

Did this vacation in Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon or wherever mean they lost
the title to their homes and land? Apparently the newly arrived transplants
from Poland and Latvia and such felt this to be the case.

This is comparable to my going to Oregon to escape the Reconquista Wars in
California, and returning a few months later to find the borders sealed.
(Issues that those who departed may have fallen behind in mortgage payments
and had their farms repossesed by banks, etc., are clearly separable...and
minor, from my readings of Middle Eastern history.)

"You left your land. Enjoy your life in the tent camp at the
Oregon-California border. Meanwhile, your ranch is now my ranch. Oh, and
could give me all of your spare keys? And how does the sprinkler system
work?"

Israel is based on moral bankruptcy. The supposed guilt of the West (huh?
we didn't gas the Jews, and we lost millions of lives fighting Hitler) led
to the "ragheads" being kicked off their land.

--Tim May




"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep  9 00:15:29 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:15:29 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson's private key
In-Reply-To: <199809092006.NAA10324@zendia.mentat.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980909131408.8451E-100000@well.com>



Hmm. I grabbed the key below and compared it to the "death threat" post
sent on Tuesday, 09 Dec 97 13:51:52 EST. Not a match.

-Declan

PS: Hello to my fans in domestic survelliance!

On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jim Gillogly wrote:

> Declan skribis:
> > I make that point in my article, but have not seen truthmonger's private
> > key posted. Care to forward it to me?
> 
> I stopped paying attention to most of Truthmonger's spew, but did
> collect one private key it posted, under the name "Earmonger", since I
> was doing PGP experiments at the time.  I think this one doesn't have
> an associated passphrase, which would make forging with it quite
> simple.  I sort of think more of its private keys were posted, but I
> didn't keep any others.  This does, however, establish a pattern of
> behavior suggesting it didn't keep private keys strictly private.
> 
> IIRC many of TM's messages were simply file-encrypted with an openly
> posted passphrase, which doesn't take a rocket scientist to crack.
> 
> 	Jim Gillogly
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> Earmonger key, clipped last year:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> 
> mQENAzZsmI4AAAEIANHHMhV7V8WqPO6RjjfhZbeY/e6hsjAjKckU7YAYPhHiJfqG
> xw5+PgVjRPhIpXEE8ksmzZBzyH5KLW5GKFJZoD6YvVUSuzm+Gpxv+G78sBDBljUt
> BUoaB0XM4HSjEuqZtRtva+l+MAr3tFrK8FSdCsSgjQa8oOT5yFE76hgOGOkXGDKC
> HAISINKdduNsp4PU6HiNoKMdYpCCvK5u08lQFcByare2yaYmawYLmCzheCWLv9F/
> kvnFtXCjup/pQNcOVeb/FkDx42l4vMwiWTH+AvrsjsV1njUIi9DTmcmD4doPlzBS
> qgbvQiTa16T2E4wJlnmATuW3QdwuBbdT2FSgj3MABRG0F0Vhck1vbmdlciA8ZW1A
> ZGV2Lm51bGw+iQEVAwUQNmyYjgW3U9hUoI9zAQHjNgf+KIDuWoBvfUj4H1twHvYU
> +IeDWIApLDnHkR7tsalLi9jY345iAolt3a/CiYxXPtjy9yedSaKoPasuvQk2cZ6e
> LZZwgEfDYj1GvjLC9D1rSItLLl6aDqYfhN2D2wgnB4mJssx1NP9zLQRf8aJkbDnl
> BMy3kfTr6ANmwe1hRGFWiuLkhnEtKzc9TFxBtx+4bx66rBBTzSUBfynH35bCLHLw
> hVzWGc5A0F18LG2WRLbGa/LcEXjp35jHyrJV73t2gUwVjH5qGa0B5O0dpvK9yDR9
> wutFrmuhRgfqHO5Tclp470dkQFJv6HHMrSYyjRFFtyC9A+5Fvd1WkW7oLRAUxZmm
> HZkBogQ0i2ULEQQA17gNRCXxoQBVQVD+zukbAWtxMCio0tfXEJYPN516KNT7noeK
> dA4Q+TItlf8uC6VkUkUwabIueLZwvykDo83tnupSkvxEQ/EftLpm56kBIrgWprJM
> f0rIhFpIR0mNiT8ZH3z7OCAcQrfSCowk//4iESLLW8H0tFx5B9bPXrrrnkcAoP88
> aezjfDn3DMlloJP9hNgRgvplA/0TKu4o2DNdIFAp/xeZE2R6wxrPfPfV00xNTgXe
> 5xXS3rCEljz48q6DEymmvA+oFuszKcrgOVDMT1TcKE1MzPjeKoe3c4Di92X+FoGa
> IenXHQrmfn7uUo54twYFqp8VsHgtfsg3F8KfFg/znF5BrIVq+aXQF9m/LczcObRz
> IXceEQQAhKvUfNYfP7NKA7sGkV38iFi8iJxsvkMk3RvlG6IxV0d3ATCRcvAFYUV3
> fyap+CS0UnoBGZUmmIY5EvC2KyI9h8X+AXPymgM4JeQ2Hg7DnEXMegFwJ3iK9+Cg
> KlTS/R/h8qYUW5G1qYgYBU+JQ3I2wxmeaVWBBtYM0Rukppz+F5G0F0Vhck1vbmdl
> ciA8ZW1AZGV2Lm51bGw+iQBLBBARAgALBQI0i2ULBAsDAQIACgkQJH46DXlIPur3
> KACgn/XD/dT+BvqkoDk1dOrbbdd00z0AnAqTYWdIKb1HkKf7Sfetwh/vKCXHuQIN
> BDSLZQsQCAD2Qle3CH8IF3KiutapQvMF6PlTETlPtvFuuUs4INoBp1ajFOmPQFXz
> 0AfGy0OplK33TGSGSfgMg71l6RfUodNQ+PVZX9x2Uk89PY3bzpnhV5JZzf24rnRP
> xfx2vIPFRzBhznzJZv8V+bv9kV7HAarTW56NoKVyOtQa8L9GAFgr5fSI/VhOSdvN
> ILSd5JEHNmszbDgNRR0PfIizHHxbLY7288kjwEPwpVsYjY67VYy4XTjTNP18F1dD
> ox0YbN4zISy1Kv884bEpQBgRjXyEpwpy1obEAxnIByl6ypUM2Zafq9AKUJsCRtMI
> PWakXUGfnHy9iUsiGSa6q6Jew1XpMgs7AAICCAC9H3enQ+6tZvcA5cjF3M2nTFCS
> IjerrQsQ5MZJ1EWYYhkgYkUQwtfuYL4NU/PelIo1TdYBr4mbNzxwJMFZ22cDNiOn
> J9oUhfDJyTA4yOacTxgl/wAXFD1FElzrVjlkf6TKW4+Db1elApcFbTDSvLNRPQev
> rtIrNRR480AtI8Um76RySrl9okI5L7TvtAXZMQnuyTtyA+YeG2/FvE3cOIY7EFXg
> Zm/jPGw6ijsbATKh6dsnb8f8dahB4awsTAzz0Unzx49TCUk0AdU9jbdP+8i+g9eJ
> uodZhd71d2o7HyhAwkVNKcsu5nqpFzwAWK5xSy5x1AprWWrTiu6uiAQ6T5Q/iQBG
> BBgRAgAGBQI0i2ULAAoJECR+Og15SD7qKaAAn0gbCIF0XzBifU27o9N7x4RI/IUX
> AJ49fXSrtX0w17W0gCe7BCvjXkRP7Q==
> =SVmn
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> 
> 





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 00:38:43 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:38:43 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
In-Reply-To: <v03130302b21b96053fd9@[209.66.100.149]>
Message-ID: <199809091912.UAA03276@server.eternity.org>




Tim May writes:
> As I'd been deleting nearly all of Toto's stuff unread, I missed all the
> stuff about (allegedly) threatening to bomb the RCMP. I recall seeing his
> "AP Bot" and "Dead Lucky" items, which came out before I was deleting all
> of his stuff.

It is kind of amusing that this FBI agent has been methodically
analysing Toto's posts when few if any here have read them all.
Particularly the one which apparently was sent to the list encrypted
with the password included -- I wonder if this FBI agent was pretty
near the only person who read it!  (I don't recall seeing the
message.)

It would seem that Toto's tendency for magical thinking, and his
theories on `synchronicity' are contagious, and that the FBI agent
ended up being drawn into Toto's magical thinking, conspiracy theory
filled world and imagining all kinds of hidden meanings in Toto's
posts.

Most of Toto's messages were fictional works such as `WebWorld', and
the others, cynical rants, conspiracy theories, etc.  No one here had
the faintest idea that any of this stuff was connected with reality.

One wonders about the Xenix chainsaw massacre, and the suitcase
nuke... fact or fiction :-)

Adam





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 00:40:02 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:40:02 +0800
Subject: Toto posted his keys?
In-Reply-To: <ed4d64ff287d4e98c0e76cdc3d0e33cf@anonymous>
Message-ID: <199809091857.TAA03261@server.eternity.org>




Anonymous notes:
> Gordon writes in the arrest note posted to jya.com:
> : [...]  In other words, only the person possessing the
> : secret key found on JOHNSON'S computer could have generated the "death
> :  threat" message.
> 
> Why would you claim only one person possessed the secret key? As you
> doubtlessly know, some of the TruthMonger secret keys have been posted
> to Cypherpunks anonymously. This is not authentication. Thank you.

Would you happen to recall the subject field or approximate date of
this message?  

(It's kind of difficult to search for Toto posts on various topics
because the From line is mostly forged, via a remailer, or forged as
coming from a remailer.  Ditto for the author, using a different nym
each time: TruthMongrel, DeathMonger, etc.)

The collection of Toto's keys that he did post and the date he posted
might be useful to archive at jya.com so that we can see which if any
of Gordon's claims of proof of authentic Toto messages are valid.

(I've got a set of archives going back to May 96 in RMAIL format, btw
if anyone wants to redo Ryan Lackey's `complete cpunks archive'.)

Adam





From mgering at ecosystems.net  Wed Sep  9 00:42:02 1998
From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:42:02 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
Message-ID: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A19284623@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>




So much for "no domestic crypto restrictions." I really hate when people
say that, there are plenty, and export restrictions on cryptography
software and cryptography in software DOES indirectly but substantially
affect the availability and cost of domestic encryption, not to mention
that most people download export-grade crypto from the web for
convenience.

Isn't there a similar ban on encryption-capable telephones and other
electronic devices (other than computers).

	Matt


> > The FCC prohibits the transmission of encrypted data via 
> > analog or digital signals by amateurs.





From hrook at exchange.microsoft.com  Wed Sep  9 00:53:11 1998
From: hrook at exchange.microsoft.com (Harvey Rook (Exchange))
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:53:11 +0800
Subject: question...
Message-ID: <2FBF98FC7852CF11912A0000000000010D19AC9D@DINO>



Hi Bernardo;

TEMPEST isn't a cipher, but a technique. 

Essentially, your monitor is a great big RF emitter. As it's electron gun
turns off and on to make the phosphor screen glow, it's emitting all kinds
of radio frequencies that betray the image on the screen. A tempest attack
is a receiver that can tune to a monitor, and reconstruct the image from the
RF the monitor is emitting. Supposedly such equipment costs about $500.00 

Harvey "Know it All" Rook.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bernardo B. Terrado [mailto:bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 11:03 PM
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: question...
> 
> 
> What is the TEMPEST? (just an overview)
> 
> What do enciphered images look like?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Some people they might say that I'm hard to get to know.
> I go my own sweet way, well that maybe so.
> Something about the crowd that makes me walk alone. 
> I never had a need in me to be the party's life and soul.
> 
> It's me Bernie.
> metaphone at altavista.net
> ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> ````````````````
> 
> 
> 





From billh at ibag.com  Wed Sep  9 00:56:45 1998
From: billh at ibag.com (William J. Hartwell)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:56:45 +0800
Subject: radio net
In-Reply-To: <E0zGSWY-0002wH-00@arianrhod.systemics.ai>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980909005149.0081d100@mail.xroads.com>



At 02:29 PM 9/8/98 -0400, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net......<snip>


I have been thinking allot about this over the last couple of months. 
I have subscribed to a packet radio mailing list
(linux-hams at vger.rutgers.edu (majordomo at vger.rutgers.edu)) just to lurk so
I could get a feel for what it 
took to set such a network up. 

Much of my family are hams and have dabbled in packet radio at one time or
another. 
They say once set up it works well (slow but dependable) and is an ideal
way to 
carry non-real-time traffic in an emergency.

As far as a secure network, that's why I lurk in this list. :-)

If such a thing should ever be outlawed or restricted most Hams I know are
law abiding 
citizens and would more than likely conform (No Ham should take offence to
this, its 
meant with the best intentions and respect). 

I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending secure
packets, 
using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic (There may be some FCC
rules regarding this.
 I don't want to break any laws so am still looking into this part.) with
nodes connected to the internet (or other network as well ... Remember
FIDOnet) would be a good idea. 

The Ham networks will probably stand up well in the case of a national
emergency. That's something these folks are real good at.

In the off chance that the telecommunications Infrastructure becomes
unavailable due to political or other reasons, some of which have been
discussed quite often here. This network could break off and stand on its
own carrying important traffic for those whose need to communicate with
loved ones and business associates would be worth whatever risk might
befall them.

If Y2K turns out to be a real problem (as I believe it might) or something
else happens. I plan on still being able to communicate with my loved ones;
business associates, and hopefully still get this list. :-)

I plan on adding another dedicated LINUX box for this in the near future
and will be looking for others with the same types of concerns to link with.  

>I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could
>be done in a fairly turnkey fashion. 

I think it would be considerably less money wise, and still could be done
properly.

I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on this and maybe
communicating with other like-minded individuals off list. Since this list
seems to have attracted a lot of attention from the authorities as of late. 

I wonder what the ratio of cypherpunks to spooks (IRS, FBI, NSA, British
Intelligence, Government informants, and assorted other agent types) on
this list is now :-)

Would all the spooks please raise your hands?   

You... in the back listening quietly....  Is that you Inspector Gordon? :-)


--
Bill H.
billh at ibag.com




--
					William J. Hartwell
					   (602)987-8436
					  Queencreek, Az.

billh at ibag.com			billh at interdem.com		billh at hartwell.net





From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Wed Sep  9 01:08:48 1998
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:08:48 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809082359.SAA12044@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199809092123.OAA17355@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>



William H. Geiger IIIwrote

> Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
> oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves 
become smaller?  

Maybe they want to sell it all before it becomes obsolete and 
maximize their income from that resource.

Within the oil business I have heard this mentioned in regards to 
natural gas.



Virtually

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca





From guy at panix.com  Wed Sep  9 01:09:56 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:09:56 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks as a Continuing Criminal Enterprise?
Message-ID: <199809092110.RAA08478@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
   >
   >   Could our group be charged as a "continuing criminal enterprise" under the
   >   RICO statute?

OH GAWD PLEASE SOMEBODY SHUT DOWN THE MAY RANT-BOT!

---guy ;-)





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  9 01:10:17 1998
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:10:17 +0800
Subject: Tax silliness (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809090245.VAA13237@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980909010417.00a5b840@idiom.com>



>> not issued a royal decree absolving the perpetrator of taxes, they could
>> have collected taxes on the guy who got the ball and then taxes on the guy
>> who had the ball given to him. Through the miracle of multiple taxation,
>> the IRS gets it all....)

Of course, the guy who has the ball can argue, if he chooses to return it,
that it doesn't belong to him, and he's returning it to its owner,
the guy who made it worth $250K.  The IRS would have a hard time arguing
some legally-defined version of "finders keepers", since it was obvious
at any point whose ball it might be.

(Then there's the question of whether the ball really belongs to the
ballpark or one or the other team, and since most professional ballparks are
quasi-governmentally owned, the local government may want a large cut...)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From nobody at seclab.com  Wed Sep  9 01:18:55 1998
From: nobody at seclab.com (User of DOOM)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:18:55 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980909005149.0081d100@mail.xroads.com>
Message-ID: <199809092115.XAA24879@rogue.seclab.com>



>>>>> William J Hartwell <billh at ibag.com> writes:

  > I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending
  > secure packets, using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic

FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either
encrypted OR commercial traffic.  Either of these restrictions makes
amateur radio networks useless for CP purposes.  And hams are very
diligent at self-enforcement, often devoting hundreds of man-hours to
track down a single unlicenced operator.

Anyone who wishes to establish a network that may -- at any point in
its life -- have to operate outside the "law" (whatever THAT happens
to be at the time) will be well advised to steer clear of the amateur
radio community.





From guy at panix.com  Wed Sep  9 01:21:30 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:21:30 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson Warrant and Complaint
Message-ID: <199809092122.RAA08765@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: Anonymous <nobody at replay.com>
   >
   >   Note to the clueless guy at panix.com, who asks:
   >   > Entirely unexplained is how one goes from passphrase "sog" (Shit on government?)
   >   > to decrypting the PGP message.
   >
   >   I'm impressed.  You're actually stupider than Jeff Gordon, the IRS flunky.
   >   He was able to figure it out, so why don't you try.  Ask your kindergarten
   >   teacher to give you a gold star once you fumble your way to the answer.

Nice shot: your feet are now on fire.
---guy





From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Wed Sep  9 01:24:44 1998
From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:24:44 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A19284623@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>
Message-ID: <v0402050bb21ca10effac@[141.142.103.240]>



Pig Latin or even the old 10 codes as in 10-4 are against the amateur
rules.  The only allowed code scheme is morse code and Q codes.  Both are
clasified as a well defined language.  Using english and having a
conversation that means something other than the standard usage is also
prohibited.  If you don't like it then stick to CB-Radio.  At least that is
the FCC's position.




>So much for "no domestic crypto restrictions." I really hate when people
>say that, there are plenty, and export restrictions on cryptography
>software and cryptography in software DOES indirectly but substantially
>affect the availability and cost of domestic encryption, not to mention
>that most people download export-grade crypto from the web for
>convenience.
>
>Isn't there a similar ban on encryption-capable telephones and other
>electronic devices (other than computers).
>
>	Matt
>
>
>> > The FCC prohibits the transmission of encrypted data via
>> > analog or digital signals by amateurs.



Matt <mailto:melliott at itmail.ncsa.uiuc.edu>





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 01:35:45 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:35:45 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson's private key
In-Reply-To: <199809092006.NAA10324@zendia.mentat.com>
Message-ID: <199809092125.WAA05951@server.eternity.org>




Jim Gillogly writes:

> I stopped paying attention to most of Truthmonger's spew, but did
> collect one private key it posted, under the name "Earmonger", since
> I was doing PGP experiments at the time.  I think this one doesn't
> have an associated passphrase, which would make forging with it
> quite simple.

That was just a public key, though right?  Was a corresponding private
key posted?

> I sort of think more of its private keys were posted, but I didn't
> keep any others.  This does, however, establish a pattern of
> behavior suggesting it didn't keep private keys strictly private.

Well let's see how many Toto keys we can find which were posted to
cpunks.

Adam





From declan at well.sf.ca.us  Wed Sep  9 01:35:47 1998
From: declan at well.sf.ca.us (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:35:47 +0800
Subject: CP Cite
In-Reply-To: <199809091318.JAA17051@camel7.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980909134804.8451P-100000@well.com>



I link to I believe seven messages in my article today.

The one that Gordon apparently cites is this:

[Bienfait Nutly News-Sidney, Montana]A BIENFAIT CYPHERPUNKS
Distributed meeting took place early this morning via an
BlackBox hookup between the South 40, in Sidney, and the
CoalDust Saloon, in Bienfait.
The main issue of discussion was as to whether anyone was
sober enough to remember where the MadBomber In Possession
Of The Last False Smile had actually placed the bomb before
embarking on a middle-leg of the TruthMonger SoftTarget Tour
of Planet Terra.

Estevan City Police, hearing rumors of the Virtual Attack
on the Saskatchewan Justice System via the MeatSpace tools
commonly available to those who own no firearms and don't
need no stinking badges, chose to delay a search for the
bomb, in order to plan what type of news spin should be
put on the event in order to maximize the justification
for an increased local police budget to combat international
terrorism, child pornography, drug-dealing and A HorseMan

-Declan


On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, John Young wrote:

> We're putting together copies of cpunk messages Jeff 
> Gordon cites in the Carl Johnson complaint and have 
> found all in the archives except one dated June10, 1998. 
> Jeff describes it:
> 
>    15. On June 10, 1998, an anonymous message was 
>    posted to the Cypherpunks Internet group. In the
>    message, it is stated that the bomber "placed the bomb 
>    before embarking on a middle-leg of the TruthMonger
>    SoftTarget Tour of Planet Terra." The message also 
>    referenced an RCMP plan to "drive a known madman 
>    crazy enough to finally put him away turned bad, and
>    resulted in a backlash of death and destruction ..." I 
>    noted that this message contained information about the
>    courthouse bomb incident which had not previously been 
>    made public, and was written in a style and manner
>    which I recognized as being similar to other writings 
>    which my investigation has linked to JOHNSON. In his
>    interview with Special Agent Sheridan, JOHNSON 
>    acknowledged using the name TruthMonger, and also
>    stated he had psychological problems, both of which 
>    correspond to this message. 
> 
> We'd appreciate getting a copy (yes, Jeff, if you would, anon ok).
> 
> BTW, there's a brief message from Lucky Green yesterday
> in the archives on CEJ which did not appear on the
> cyberpass list, AFAIK, although it was sent to ssz.com. Do such
> gaps happen much in CDR?
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I post to toad, and aim to be the last one who
> does, so drive me AP-mad.
> 
> BTW2, anybody know what Linda Reed thinks of her infame?
> 
> BTW3, we heard from TX that CJ's music/perform art is going to 
> be boosted in concert with his god-sent cornseed of publicity.






From petro at playboy.com  Wed Sep  9 01:37:57 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:37:57 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks as a Continuing Criminal Enterprise?
In-Reply-To: <199809090406.VAA31614@always.got.net>
Message-ID: <v0311070db21c9da607d9@[206.189.103.244]>



At 12:07 AM -0500 9/9/98, Tim May wrote:
>Could our group be charged as a "continuing criminal enterprise" under the
>RICO statute?
>
>It occurs to me that if Carl Johnson, who is linked several times to our
>group/list in the court documents, is successfully prosecuted,then the Feds
>may be able to cite both Bell and Johnson as evidence of a conspiracy.
>Which probably wouldn't be too hard to prove, as many of us have admitted
>to conspiring mightily to undermine various institutions. (And we even use
>encypted e-mail, the very essence of a secret conspiracy.)

	As far as I know, conspiring to END the government, or change the
government is perfectly legal, as long as you are not planning on using
violence to carry it out.

	We (well, as many as are, we is a difficult thing on this list) are
prepared to _resist with violence_ the invasion of our homes, and (to a
different extent) the removal of our rights, but those are in themselves
illegal things, so defending oneself from them is the most basic
"inalienable right".

	Then again, we are dealing with the Peoples United Soverign States
Government.

>It might be fun to see them try this. Would they charge some of us as

	Well, at least for those of you rich enough to pay for lawyers. The
rest of us will either have to plea, flee, or die.

>ringleaders? Or would they declare the entity itself an illegal
>organization? (As they have done with various cultural, political, and even
>religous groups, like Hezbollah, the Aum religion, etc.)

	Hmmm, if they were to do this, how bout we have a second set of
servers running the distributed mailing list software under a different
name, say Sinderallapunx, or OldDemocrapunks.

	Ok, so being a "member" of cypherpunks is illegal, change the name,
let them have their "victory".

>Interesting times.


petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From jimg at mentat.com  Wed Sep  9 01:45:22 1998
From: jimg at mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:45:22 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson's private key
Message-ID: <9809092144.AA11404@mentat.com>



Adam skribis:
> That was just a public key, though right?  Was a corresponding private
> key posted?

Oh, you're right.  I misremembered.  This was actually two public keys,
an RSA and an ElGamal.  Still, I'm pretty sure there was a *Monger
private key posted <some> time.

	Jim Gillogly





From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Sep  9 01:50:26 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:50:26 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
In-Reply-To: <v0311070bb21c8458165b@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <199809092151.RAA07697@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0311070bb21c8458165b@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/09/98 
   at 02:15 PM, Petro <petro at playboy.com> said:

>	Ok, I'm rewriting history, you say IN THE SAME POST:

>The UN resolution divided up the land based on population and gave each
>group their own country.

>	--and--

>The Jews that emigrated to Trans-Jordan/Palestine *purchased* the land
>from the Arabs that were living there.

>	So tell me, is there a difference between being _told_ you will sell
>your house and move, and deciding you really would prefer to live
>elsewhere? 

Yes it is quite obvious that there is a difference from being *forced* to
give up your land, and willingly selling it. As I said before NO ONE WAS
FORCED OFF THEIR LAND until after the war that the arabs started. When war
did start it was the arabs that were trying to use FORCE to push the Jews
off of the land that they had legally purchased!!

>Oh, and when this artifical coutry was set up, did EVERYONE
>have equal say in the government, or were certain Northern Europeans of
>jewish faith considered more equal. Of course, being given the short end
>of the political and economic stick couldn't be considered an
>incitement.

Please explain why Israel is an "artificial" country while the rest of the
countries from the old Ottoman Empire were not? How much say did EVERYONE
have when the British set up KINGDOMS in countries like Saudi Arabia,
Jordan, Egypt? Until recently Israel was the *ONLY* democracy in that
region. IIRC Jordan and Egypt are the only arab countries that practice
any form of democracy at all (and Jordan still has a powerfull king as its
head of state).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2 means...CURTAINS for Windows!

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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Sep  9 01:59:20 1998
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:59:20 +0800
Subject: usa-v-cej-wc.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809090053.TAA12423@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980909105231.14862A-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>



On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:
(Quoting criminal complaint) 
> >    Internet group known as the "Cypherpunks." During the investigation of
> 
> This guy has experience with the Internet and doesn't know the difference
> between a group and a mailing list, what a maroon.

I am sure he knows the difference. And in this case he was talking about
a "Cypherpunks group", as in "the Cypherpunks militia", as in "criminal
organization", not as in mailing list.

PsyOps is in full force.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.





From gbroiles at netbox.com  Wed Sep  9 02:00:36 1998
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:00:36 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809091239.HAA15369@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199809092202.PAA23854@ideath.parrhesia.com>



At 07:57 AM 9/9/98 -0700, Brian W. Buchanan wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:
>> The FCC prohibits the transmission of encrypted data via analog or digital
>> signals by amateurs.
>
>I'd love to see them try to enforce that.  What about chaffing and
>winnowing?  Stego?  Transmission of random noise? ;)  Anyone have the text
>of the actual rules concerning this?

I don't know of a persistent web copy of the regs (only query-based ones,
where the queries are only good for a few hours), but the regulation you're
looking for is 47 CFR 97.113 -

"(a) No amateur station shall transmit: . . . . (4) Music using a phone
emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section;
communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or
ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as otherwise
provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or
deceptive messages, signals, or identification"

As I understand things (and I don't follow communications law, so I don't
think my opinion is well-informed), the restrictions only apply to
transmissions within the amateur band(s); so that's not applicable to, say,
the FRS (family radio service, a band recently opened to non-licensed
communications - used, for example, by the small Motorola TalkAbout
radios), or cordless/cellphone frequencies. 

PDF copies of the FCC regs are online at
<http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/rules.html>; amateur ("ham") radio is at Part 97.

I'm working on a bigger rant about crypto and radio and guns and Y2K and
the net; the gist of it is that amateur radio people, who are generally
decent folks as individuals, have cozied up to the FCC to protect their
"radio privileges" and have been rewarded with a mountain of bureacratic
horseshit which outdoes even the idiotic regulations re crypto export and
firearms .. and it's enforceable because the people who got licenses from
the government to communicate with each other (but only in certain ways, on
certain frequencies, after identifying themselves) fall over themselves to
find people who *don't* think they need a license to communicate (or who
think that the First Amendment *is* their license), and they rat those
non-licensed folks out to the FCC. The FCC's got an army of unpaid
volunteer informers who watch their fellow subjects to ensure compliance
with these silly rules .. which leads to a situation where ham radios are
mostly useful for talking to other people about how the weather is in some
other part of the globe, and what kind of radio someone's got, and how big
their antenna is. The FCC (and parallel organizations in other countries)
are discussing liberalizing the regulations regarding amateur radio use,
and a significant fraction of the current radio people are opposed to the
liberalization, because it'll topple their little kingdoms and make their
hard-earned licenses and certifications uninteresting.

If you want to know what crypto regs and net use regs are going to look
like in 10-20 years, look at the amateur radio regs now - we'll have
citizens' committees (similar to the "block leaders" on GeoCities) who stay
up late at night, unpaid, watching their fellow subjects for signs of
pseudonym use, or the use of unlicensed/unapproved crypto, or "unlicensed
Internet broadcasting". The citizens' committees will explain that they're
dedicated volunteers devoted to keeping their communities "clean" and
"orderly", and that without their intervention the FIC would be unable to
ride herd on all of the wild people using programs nobody's inspected and
communicating with ciphers nobody can read, saying things that just
shouldn't be said because they'll make somebody upset or something.
Besides, children might be reading. Everyone wants to be polite, don't they? 


--
Greg Broiles��������|History teaches that 'Trust us'
gbroiles at netbox.com�|is no guarantee of due process.
                    |_Kasler v. Lundgren_, 98 CDOS 1581
                    |(March 4, 1998)





From whgiii at invweb.net  Wed Sep  9 02:04:25 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:04:25 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809092123.OAA17355@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <199809092205.SAA07866@domains.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199809092123.OAA17355 at leroy.fbn.bc.ca>, on 09/09/98 
   at 02:09 PM, "Raymond D. Mereniuk" <Raymond at fbn.bc.ca> said:


>William H. Geiger IIIwrote

>> Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
>> oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

>Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
>renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves  become
>smaller?  

>Maybe they want to sell it all before it becomes obsolete and  maximize
>their income from that resource.

>Within the oil business I have heard this mentioned in regards to 
>natural gas.

Most of these countries are economically "one trick ponies" and have
little export revenue outside of oil. Because OPEC <sp?> has been a
failure at enforcing production quotas there is a surplus of oil on the
market thus driving down the cost (supply and demand).

There are also large reserves of oil in Alaska, Siberia and elsewhere that
are going unused along with other reserves that are too expensive to
extract the oil at current market prices. The so called "oil shortage" of
the 70's had more to do with Oil Companies profiteering than it did with
any actual shortage. I have seen estimates in the past of our domestic oil
reserves showing that we have enough oil to last another 100 years at out
current rate of increased consumption if we stopped all imports today.
Simple economics is that it is cheaper for us to import it than it is to
produce it domestically.

As much as the Greens whine and cry about alternative fuels, the simple
fact is that as long as oil is cheap no one is going to switch. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows?  Homey don't play that!

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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep  9 02:15:25 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:15:25 +0800
Subject: A Cypherpunk Trial, Yes
Message-ID: <199809092216.SAA19854@dewdrop2.mindspring.com>



Adam Back wrote:

>The collection of Toto's keys that he did post and the date he posted
>might be useful to archive at jya.com so that we can see which if any
>of Gordon's claims of proof of authentic Toto messages are valid.

Yes, this is a crucial point. The innuendo of the complaint needs
checking, and read with a heap of salt, although it's probable that 
the Feds have more than revealed so far. They've more fanciful 
stories to spiel of the confabulous material of the Mounties and 
Estevan Bombies, and SS agents and bunkered magistrates 
and imperiled Cindys needing protection from the Killer Bots.

To hawk tickets we have added links within the complaint to all 
the Cpunk messages cited, but for those who don't want to 
download it again or search the archives, here they are 
chronologically:

   http://jya.com/jg062397.htm
   http://jya.com/jg090497.htm
   http://jya.com/jg120997.htm
   http://jya.com/jg121497.htm
   http://jya.com/jg060898.htm (not June 10, as in the complaint; thanks to
jeff-anon)
   http://jya.com/jg072598.htm
   http://jya.com/jg072798.htm

It was a pleasure to reread Toto(s)'s stuff while searching the 
cpunk amazing archives -- what a waterfall from everyone of free 
association, tants, jibes, potshots and richochets and self-mockery. 
I now believe the report from TX that Carl's got an IQ off the charts
like all cpunks off the wall.

It's worth keeping in mind that multiple users of pseudonyms is
not unusual, at least among artists long before the Internet, and 
not only performance group e-mailers like the Totos, CJ Parkers, 
XxxMongers, Gus-Peters and endless Anonymees jostling for
unrecognition.

Two venerable and heavily-used nyms in Europe are Luther Bissett 
and Monty Cantsin. A dazzling Monty Cantsin posted here for a 
while. A Luther Bissett message ridiculing the recent kiddie porn
sweep was posted to Cyberia a few days ago. But these pseudonyms 
and others are frequently used to taunt uptight authoritarians by 
substantial numbers of people, sometimes acting in concert but 
most often acting alone.

An exemplary case of acting up like the Totos and other performance
pseudo-Feynmann's here, is that of Dario Fo, the Italian artist who 
recently won the Nobel Prize. His off the chart genius, too, was in 
mixing the real and imaginary to challenge, and to frighten, authority 
into revealing their treacherous deception of the real and imaginary 
to maintain state and religious control century after century, culture
after culture. He, too, was regularly condemned by those obsesses
with holding onto power, and sometimes arrested, for his imitations
of them at their most buffoonish and serious.

Fo is from an earlier generation, though, and what more agressively
offensive form is suitable for those younger we may be witnessing in 
the Jim Bells, Unknown Arrestees, and those here not yet projected 
onto the world stage but working the crowd most effectively.

Black Unicorn, step up to the mike. Show magic.

In any, case, I'm delighted to see Cypherpunks get credit in the Johnson
pseudo-complaint for hosting transgressive art appropriate for the age of 
widespreading disinformation. A tumultous trial to amplify this forum's 
mayhemic virtues and vices would be magnificently chaotic and hopefully 
anarchic to the max. 

Pray for CJ to get an equally mad attorney to demand his day, and our day, 
in court. This under-recognized witness is eager for a highly offensive 
part to play, a gibbering idiot like Toto(s), you bet, I admire their style of
spleen and threat to the fools of seriousness.








From wwalker at netcom.com  Wed Sep  9 02:48:58 1998
From: wwalker at netcom.com (Wayne Walker)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:48:58 +0800
Subject: SSZ is Down
Message-ID: <199809092250.PAA25688@netcom6.netcom.com>



I'm sending this for Jim (ravage at ssz.com) as he is a bit too busy just
now.

He just arrived at home to find the dog pinned under the tree that fell
and took out the phones and the ISDN.

The dog is apparently uninjured (though only two feet from certain
death).  Don't know which dog.

The ISDN is hurt and probably won't be up till sometime tomorrow.
 

                               Later,
                                  Wayne
--
Wayne Walker
Austin, Texas
E-mail wwalker at pobox.com

"Real Programmers don't document, if it was hard to program it should
be hard to use"





From petro at playboy.com  Wed Sep  9 03:06:55 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:06:55 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809090416.AAA25585@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <v03110711b21cb8945afa@[206.189.103.244]>



At 5:09 PM -0500 9/9/98, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:
>William H. Geiger IIIwrote
>
>> Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
>> oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.
>
>Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
>renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves
>become smaller?

	Could it be that certain large players (say, the U.K, U.S. Soviet
Union &etc) have a vested interest in cheap oil as long as possible, so
they do things (like create the state of israel, and give it lots of
economic aid) to destablize the region, keep the people of that area at
each others throats &etc. so that OPEC can't agree to control prices...

	Nah, I'm just paranoid.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 03:33:45 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:33:45 +0800
Subject: A Cypherpunk Trial, Yes
In-Reply-To: <199809092216.SAA19854@dewdrop2.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199809092321.AAA07068@server.eternity.org>




John Young writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
>
> >The collection of Toto's keys that he did post and the date he posted
> >might be useful to archive at jya.com so that we can see which if any
> >of Gordon's claims of proof of authentic Toto messages are valid.
> 
> Yes, this is a crucial point. The innuendo of the complaint needs
> checking, and read with a heap of salt, although it's probable that 
> the Feds have more than revealed so far. 

I've been searching through looking at posts containing BEGIN PGP
MESSAGE (ignoring the pgp-mime signatures which use the BEGIN PGP
MESSAGE).

Looky here, here's a "TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>", posted back in Sept.
97 (Toto's post below, so you can search for it in your cpunks mail
folder/search engines/web based cpunks archives [1]).  You were right
Jim.

Is this key the one used to sign any of the Toto rants, especially the
ones the IRS agent has been poring over and referring to in the
warrant?

It has a sig on it from 0x66FB8C65.  Any one fancy working out the set
of Toto public keys which are cross certified?  There are quite a few
keys I think.

Adam

[1]
======================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:58:52 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Persistent Persona
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

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From nobody at anon.olymp.org  Wed Sep  9 04:04:01 1998
From: nobody at anon.olymp.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:04:01 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <ed4d64ff287d4e98c0e76cdc3d0e33cf@anonymous>



Dear Mr Gordon,

   When I checked the
   digital signature on the Internet death threat using the PGP software
   and JOHNSON'S secret key ring, the computer identified the signature
   as one of the signature keys stored in JOHNSON'S computer. Because
   both the "private" and "public" portions of the "key" were stored on
   JOHNSON'S computer, the message can be authenticated as having been
   generated by the person who possessed this "secret key" and knew the
   correct password. In other words, only the person possessing the
   secret key found on JOHNSON'S computer could have generated the "death
   threat" message.

Why would you claim only one person possessed the secret key? As you
doubtlessly know, some of the TruthMonger secret keys have been posted
to Cypherpunks anonymously. This is not authentication. Thank you.





From p60850v6 at auto.sixdegrees.com  Wed Sep  9 04:06:39 1998
From: p60850v6 at auto.sixdegrees.com (sixdegrees)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:06:39 +0800
Subject: Your new password
Message-ID: <199809091043.DAA16307@toad.com>



Name: Joe Cypherpunk
sixdegrees password: tapesilk

Congratulations Joe. You're well on your way to 
becoming a full sixdegrees(tm) member. Here is your member 
password: tapesilk. Use it to log-in on the home page 
at the sixdegrees Web site, http://www.sixdegrees.com. 
We'll ask you for a little more information to complete your 
registration, and then you'll be ready to start networking. 

It's important that you return to the site and log-in. Your 
membership will not be complete until you do so.

Once you've successfully logged in with your password, just go 
to Personal Profile and you'll be able to choose your own 
password.

Thanks for becoming part of sixdegrees. We're looking forward 
to seeing you at the site. 

====================================================================
PLEASE NOTE: All replies to this address are processed by a computer.
If you believe you received this e-mail in error, and it was not your 
intention to become a sixdegrees member, or if you have any problems, 
questions or requests send an e-mail to issues at sixdegrees.com
and someone will get back to you as soon as possible.
====================================================================


E.SI.BAM.1





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 04:17:22 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:17:22 +0800
Subject: more keys
Message-ID: <199809100002.BAA07374@server.eternity.org>




OK here's some more keys:

[1] for "Magic Circle"

[2] for "Necessarily Knott, ME"

Again were these keys used to sign anything interesting?

Key [1] was preceeded, perhaps meaningfully by this text in the long
(22k) Epilogue 5:

: Now:
: 
: Go home, kick your fucking door in, place a disk in the floppy drive, and
: type 'pgp -kxa "My KeyID" a:\secring.asc secring.pgp'.
: Mail the disk to Louis J. Freeh
: 
: Does your copy of PGP ask for a password before spitting out the KeyID
: to any one of a thousand monkeys who sits at your keyboard and
: randomly types in the above?
: 
: My copy doesn't.
: 
: Below is a copy of a key pulled off of my computer by 19 different people.
: 
: It was pulled off of my hard drive by the first individual, who
: proceeded to inform a second individual of the method used, and
: challenged them to do the same thing, using a different method. The
: second did so, and passed all the information along to a third person,
: etc., etc.
: 
: Nineteen people, nineteen different methods.

if Toto apparently speaks in parables, and via fiction etc. is he
saying that the RCMP or someone else pulled his keys off his
computers?  How does this correlate with his posts on the subject of
hassles with the RCMP, and confiscation of some of his machines?

Adam

[1]
======================================================================
This one has userid: Magic Circle

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2
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3D
=3DGEo6
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

and it was posted in a message dated 20 Oct. 97 with Subject: InfoWar
Epilogue 5 / TEXT
======================================================================

[2]
======================================================================
-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2

lQD4AzRmZWoAAAECAMnJrqd/TERCLeFscdgNvwVxrVG4tRm0VThMEXXkctCGMaUD
jcETxcV0ZseRUcyUKfqlLd3CRsIwClozlWHHR7EABREAAfwJ5D1Ecilit/Mwsn4N
GcWZXWpg3mM6/Epzs2pEhi3I926ZiWPB1DKmdZR4nVemsnwv47SWLJyCnE4sben5
h8oHAQDTFaJDJSN7+9NToOE4NFiruAXXMIHEQ6ZH21oW1sYSiwEA9LmhvfahDVKo
1/CMtxxozAtG8rWycBYVIVrkDKiVgjMBAKeB2VY/f7tzmv7KxUUtN9607+CQlWPp
E3HBLTlwtuRAUxC0FU5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IEtub3R0LCBNRQ==
=caeb
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

posted in a message dated 10 Nov. 97 with Subject: Key Signing 
======================================================================

Adam





From Jrjeffro at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 19:18:46 1998
From: Jrjeffro at aol.com (Jrjeffro at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:18:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199809100227.TAA19261@emke.com>


HaCkaZ OnlY Da EliTe

HelLO YaLL DiS is Da MaDD AAOOLL HaCka Ima startin a GreWp fOR HaCs Only So In OthA WerDS yA gOttA KnOw The WAreZ anD HoW toO UsEr FaTe AnD AOL So MaIl Or Im Me FoR Da TeTaIls If YeR LeeTo K 
Pe at CE FrOmE The LeeTs HacK
JeFFrO)
>





From cicho at free.polbox.pl  Wed Sep  9 05:01:23 1998
From: cicho at free.polbox.pl (cicho)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:01:23 +0800
Subject: Text Analysis and Shakespeare
In-Reply-To: <199809040233.TAA29401@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <35f66746.1781792@193.59.1.1>



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>a friend gave me a book called "the cryptographic
>shakespeare" in which he found some patterns in 
>shakespearean texts that might tend to suggest
>some codes were embedded in it.

In what sense? Most of the time, plain old lit analysis is looking for
"keys" and then applying them to "unlock" the "hidden message". An allegory
is a simple substitution cipher, and then it goes all the way up to lit
equivalents of one time pads and steganography (say, 'Lolita' or Frank
O'Hara's poetry).

Concerning Shakespeare, I thought those involved in this discussion might
be amused by the following. I would have posted it earlier but didn't have
the book at hand, and then Lem's prose isn't particularly friendly for the
translator. It's all taken out of context, but will speak for itself, I am
sure.

--------------

STANIS&Lstrok;AW LEM
DIARY FOUND IN A BATHTUB
(chapter IV, excerpt)


	�Here goes,� I said at last, opening my eyes. �My ears have yet not
drunk a hundred words of that tongue's utterance, yet I know the sound. Art
thou not Romeo?�
	�Fine.�
	The captain punched keys briskly, typing in the line I offered. A slot
that looked like an ancient letterbox began spitting out paper ribbon which
spun slowly in the air. Captain Prandtl held it gently and handed it to me.
I held the tip of the ribbon, waiting patiently. The paper snaked out of
the slot inch by inch and when I tugged at it carefully I could feel the
feeding mechanism vibrate. Suddenly, the barely perceptible tremor ceased
and the ribbon spun on, blank. I held it to my eyes.
	�BAS TARD MAT HEWS BAS TARD DRAW HIM & QUARTER WITH HOLY DE LIGHT MAT
HEWS PIG SEED MATH HEWS MATH�.
	�And what is this?� I asked, not even trying to conceal my dismay. The
captain nodded.
	�I presume that when he wrote the scene, Shakespeare was unfavourably
disposed towards a man named Mathews. . . and encoded the sentiment in the
lines of his play.�
	�You expect me to believe that? Do you mean to say that he deliberately
filled this wondrous, lyrical passage with crude interjections at some
Mathews person?�
	�I never said he did so deliberately. A code is a code, no matter what
the author�s intent.�
	�Do you mind?� I asked. I approached the control panel and keyed in the
freshly obtained plaintext myself. The ribbon moved again, twisting into a
spiral. I caught a brief, peculiar smile on Prandtl�s lips, but he didn�t
say a word.
	�THAT ASS YEAH HER ASS FUN FAT ASS FUN FAT YEAH ASS HER ASS HEY THAT
FAT ASS� - read the tidily printed syllables.
	�What is this?� I demanded. �What is it?!�
	�Another layer. Well, what did you expect? We�ve exposed a deeper layer
of the psyche of a 17th century Englishman, plain and simple.�
	�This cannot be! You�re telling me this beautiful poem is nothing but a
vessel to conceal some pigs and asses?! And that if you feed the most
sublime literary achievements, pinnacles of human genius, immortal epics,
sagas - it will all come out hodgepodge?�
	�Hodgepodge it is, mister. Art... literature... do you realise what
their purpose is? To divert attention!�
	�From what?�
	�You don�t know?�
	�I don�t.�
	�That�s too bad. You ought to know. What are you doing here, then?!�
	I didn�t answer. With skin on his face taut like a tent�s canvas
stretched over sharp rocks, he continued in monotone:
	�A broken code remains a code. Under the eye of a professional
cryptographer it will shed one moult after another. It is inexhaustible. It
has no end nor bottom. You can delve into progressively deeper,
progressively more arcane strata, but this journey never terminates.�

--------------

(This 1960 novel is available in English translation, hopefully better than
my attempt here, as "Diary Found in a Bathtub", though i *really* should be
called The (Original) Puzzle Palace, 'coz that's what it's about. It's
Kafka plus David Lynch plus TCMay rolled in one :)

.marek


-- 
General Frenetics, Discorporated: http://www.lodz.pdi.net/~eristic/





From 661850g1 at auto.sixdegrees.com  Wed Sep  9 05:09:49 1998
From: 661850g1 at auto.sixdegrees.com (sixdegrees)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:09:49 +0800
Subject: Joe Cypherpunk
Message-ID: <199809091200.IAA18283@www.video-collage.com>



Name: Ivan Cypherpunk
E-Mail Address: cypherpunks at algebra.com
sixdegrees Password: listhome

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   possibility of joining sixdegrees if the concept intrigues you) 
   send a reply that says only DENY

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   names and e-mail addresses of the people you'd like to invite
   (you can list as many as you'd like - but we recommend you list 
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*  That the first name, last name, e-mail address and relationship 
   number are separated by SEMI-COLONS. 

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*  And that you define each relationship by choosing a number from 
   this list:

 1=wife              2=husband              3=life partner
 4=significant other 5=mother               6=father
 7=sister            8=brother              9=daughter
10=son              11=other family member 12=friend
13=employer         14=employee            15=co-worker
16=client           17=service provider    18=business contact
19=fellow alum      20=acquaintance 


We look forward to hearing from you!

===================================================================

PLEASE NOTE: All replies to this address are processed by a 
computer. If you have any problems, questions or requests send 
an e-mail to issues at sixdegrees.com and you'll receive a prompt 
and courteous response.

And, if you'd like to review our privacy statement just visit 
http://www.sixdegrees.com/Public/About/Privacy.asp

====================================================================

sixdegrees is Registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.


E.DB.ANB.1





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 05:19:16 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:19:16 +0800
Subject: Toto `PLP' a key?
Message-ID: <199809100105.CAA07777@server.eternity.org>




Then there is this `key', which appears to be fabricated, though the
armor checksum checks if you modify it as follows....

-----BEGIN PLP PRIVATE KEY-----
Version: Pretty Lousy Privacy v6.66
Comments: No Comment
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=zXsO
-----END PLP PRIVATE KEY-----

(Posted in message Subject: Re: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge, Date: 6
Sep 97).

Now, change the ----- lines to the correct, and the first 5 chars are
the same on PGP public key blocks 'mQENAz' (though this claims to be a
SECRET KEY BLOCK)

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: Pretty Lousy Privacy v6.66
Comments: No Comment
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=zXsO
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

and the armor checksum checks, and pgp5 reports (the garbled):

Adding keys:

Key ring: 'p1.asc'
Type Bits KeyID    Created    Expires    Algorithm       Use
pub  37916 00000000 2002-08-13 2079-10-29 (null)                         
uid  *** This key is unnamed ***

1 matching key found

which looks to be garbage; perhaps it is is just garbage with a valid
public key checksum?  This seems like it would require writing some
software to acheive?  The probability of a random checksum success on
a garbled file, as the armor checksum is a 24 bit checksum is
1/2^24... quite unlikely.

Ideas?

Adam





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 05:20:17 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:20:17 +0800
Subject: Toto describing a visit from SS agents
Message-ID: <199809100035.BAA07635@server.eternity.org>




Again while searching for keys, another encrypted message (Subject:
Secret Service With A Smile - SAHMD!!! / Pwd: lco, Date: 31 Jul 98)
this message appears to refer to a visit from US Secret Service
agents, apparently due to their imputing some kind of threat to US
president(?) in one of Toto's rants.

Decrypted copy below [1].

Adam

[1]
======================================================================
Secret Service With A Smile - SPACE ALIENS HIDE MY DRUGS!!!
___________________________________________________________

  It was only natural for me to wonder what it was about the Secret
Service Agents who visited me today that enabled them to act like
decent, pleasant people during the course of the personal interview
portion of their investigation into my life and psyche.

  The question was answered, to my satisfaction, at the point when
the more veteran of the two agents explained that, despite my
rugged handsomeness and my delightful personality, they would have
to CrushMeLikeABug if it became apparent to them that my already
tentative physical and mental existence came into conflict with
their official duty to protect the President of the United States.
  I realized that they were professionals, with a high degree of
integrity, and that their concern probably went far beyond the
fact that if the Nation lost the CommanderInChief on their shift,
they could pretty much kiss their Christmas Bonus goodbye...
  It was also apparent that their ability to be quite reasonable
and pleasant human beings--while making it plain that informing me
that putting me away for observation in Springfield, Missouri,
could easily take away a full year of my life, was *meant* to be
a threat--without having to engage in a heavy-handed affectation
of MachoAuthority, was the result of their actually *having* the
authority to decide, here and now, whether or not my life would
instantly become a living hell.

  The Secret Service Agents were also extremely intelligent, not
even blinking before passing on my offer to testify against myself,
in return for immunity from prosecution.
 (When I made the same offer to RCMP OffalSlurs, they had to 
  contact their superiors, who held a meeting with OffalSchills
  behind the closed doors of the Canadian Justice Apartment,
  before finally declining my offer.)

  I was able to relax and be cooperative in dealing with the 
Agents, since, when your fate is in the hands of someone with
GenuineAuthority, whether their intentions are GoodOrEvil (TM)
is not nearly as important as to whether or not they happen to
be StupidFucks (TM) who can ruin your life over something as
simple as misunderstanding your request that they make their
questions more 'lucid.'
 ("That's it, you sick, fucking pervert! Jim, get the kilo of
  heroin out of the trunk...")

Wrong Question #29 When Dealing With StupidFucks:
  "Excuse me, but do your employers *know* that you carry a gun?
I mean, have they ever met you, or were you hired by mail? Can
you actually shoot a gun without moving your lips?"

  Although the Secret Service Agents were in possession of an
email I had sent a few minutes or hours previously, from Pima
College --> <erehwon at dis.org> (who I immediately tried to Rat
Out as the leader of a ChildSexRingDedicatedToTheViolentOver
ThrowOfTheUSGovernment, in order to save my own skin), the
agents seemed much more interested in a chapter of SAHMD!!!
which contains notification of an OfficialDeathThreat to pretty
much DoGodAndEverybodyOnTheFaceOfTheEarth.
  I tried to placate them by reaching over with a pen and adding
an 'Un' in front of the word 'Official,' but they were not really
impressed, informing me that the point they were trying to make
had to do with it being unacceptable, from their point of view,
for me to use the words 'Death,' 'Threat,' and 'President' all
in the same paragraph, let alone all in the same sentence.
{"Well, excuuusssee *me*!"}
  Realizing that it was probably not an opportune moment to try to
hit them up for a donation toward the maintenance of my planned
PresidentialDeathThreatAnonymousRemailer, I casually turned the
donation jar so that they couldn't see the label, and I set it
down.

  Actually, I couldn't be certain that I had actually written the
chapter, or portion thereof, with which the agents seemed most
concerned, since I find it difficult to distinguish between the
work that is mine alone, and the work that is a collage of various
participants in the writing and dissemination of 'The True Story
of the InterNet' manuscripts, if I don't have access to the files
on the computer on which they were created and stored.
  Nonetheless, I refrained from pointing out that the phrase that
indicates that the writer "might" conceivably "whack" someone or
another GovernmentPersonage, might equally apply to the stance
taken by the Secret Service Agents, themselves, if the Founding
Fathers were to be believed when they indicated that it is the
right and the duty of the citizenry to take up arms against their
rulers, if need be, in the interest of Democracy, Freedom, Justice,
or in DivineRetribution against the High&Mighty if they take a drink
out of your beer while you're in the restroom, having a leak.
 (I'm not certain about that last example, but I have no doubt that
  the Founding Fathers *meant* to include that...)

  I refrained from attempting to engage the Agents in philosophical
debate in regard to some of the finer points surrounding the issues
of Freedom of Speech, since the purpose of their visit was obviously
geared toward impressing upon me the duties encompassed by their job
description, their professional competence in doing their job, and
the fact that the necessity of making a return visit would very
likely be an indication that Uncle Sam was about to become my new
landlord.
  To tell the truth, I was in a pretty scattered state of mind at
the time of their visit, and I undoubtedly failed to adequately
understand a good portion of the dialogue which took place, but
they were very clear in explaining that, given my current state
of unwelcomeness in Canada, I am running out of countries to go
to, and that I should give serious consideration as to whether or
not I wanted my next Literary Spamology to be titled, "Midnight 
Express II."
  Hhhmmm...decisions, decisions...

  Since my reading of the Secret Service Agents is that they are
highly ethical professionals, with little need to persecute an
individual out of thin-skinned, personal vindictiveness, I guess
it wouldn't hurt to mention that, minutes after their departure,
Linda Lou arrived home, announcing that there was yet another
Tarantula in the driveway, headed toward the house...

  The obvious conclusion, of course, is that the Secret Service
Agents are actually Reptilian Nazis, who are deeply involved in
the WorldWidePlotAgainstMe.
  This, in turn, leads to the dilemma of whether or not I should,
on the occasion of a return visit, jump them and drive wooden stakes
through their hearts, turning them into quivering pools of smoking,
green slime. 
 (Or is that Vampires? Shit! I'd better check, first, or it could
  lead to a really embarassing situation.)

  On the other hand, since they were quite civil and reasonable
in their dealings with me, and they apparently didn't eat any of
the dogs, while here (although it might have been a different
story, if we had poodles), then perhaps their is a chance that
we and the Reptilian Nazis can live together in peace...unless it
is a SneakyTrick (TM), of course...and they are trying to *confuse*
me, so that I don't warn TheOthers...and they were only so pleasant
because they were inwardly laughing at me for not realizing that,
starting tomorrow, they are going to take control of the whole face
of the globe, turning all humans into LobotomizedSlaves who exist
only to serve their ReptilianNaziMasters!

QUICK, EVERYBODY! ARM YOURSELVES AND RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
PREPARE TO ENGAGE THE REPTILIAN NAZIS IN VIOLENT, BLOODY STRUGGLE!
START BY WHACKING OUT THE LAWYERS, AND THEN...

  Hold it! What the fuck am I ranting on about?
  The Masses are *already* LobotomizedSlaves who exist only to serve
their ReptilianNaziMasters...

  Maybe the agents were just here to see whether or not Baby is a
poodle.
  That makes more sense, since the Reptilian Nazis don't really 
give a FatRat'sAss about the Jews, but they *do* want to round up
all of the poodles shortly before the arrival of their Reptilian
Nazi Relatives, so that there is plenty of barbeque at their
PicnicToCelebrateTheConquestOfEarth.
  Yeah, that's gotta be it...

  Actually, I'm rather glad that the Secret Service Agents dropped
around to meet me in person, since people reading my copious literary
effluvia sometimes mistakenly get the impression that I am some kind
of Dogamned Weirdo, or something.
  Still, I wish I had been able to refrain from going, "Cuckoo-Cuckoo"
on the hour and the half-hour during their vist.
  But, what the hell...I bet that a *lot* of the people they visit
do that...
======================================================================





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  9 05:20:22 1998
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:20:22 +0800
Subject: RCMP hate page still around?
Message-ID: <199809100017.BAA07580@server.eternity.org>




Toto's web pages at sympatico are I think gone (or at least disabled).

Whilst searching for more Toto private keys I found this encrypted
message (Subject: Prologue 14/0 -- Passoword: cypherpunks), posted 26
Mar. 98.  You have to use a passphrase in all CAPS to get it to
decrypt.

Text below (seems to be a rant about police abuse, I presume some
local news item in Canada).  Hardly one thinks worthy of receiving the
attentions of the RCMP...  Wonder why the RCMP decided to confiscate
Toto's computers (and get his account at sympatico first monitored and
one presumes then cancelled).

Adam

======================================================================
                               The Official

                       Royal Canadian Mounted Police

                                 HATE Page

Kudos of the week go to Constable Dave Voller, who legally murdered a
gun-toting Wagon-Burner and the nine year old future glue-sniffer clinging
to her skirt.

Congrats, Dave. A hundred points for the woman, and five hundred for the
kid...

This is a good time to remind RCMP Officers across Canada that, despite our
long history of exercising a strong hand (and an even stronger nightstick
;?) in keeping the Wagon-Burners from storming the gates of white society,
current social and legal trends make it necessary for us to take every step
necessary to cover our ass when we take those measures needed to keep them
in their proper physical place (the reservation) and to keep them in their
proper attitudinal place even when they remain in their proper physical
place.

Remember that the procedures that we have put in place are for your
protection, and that if you stay within our guidelines, you can pretty much
waste as many Wagon-Burners as you wish, without suffering legal
consequences.

Constable Voller followed proper procedure in charging right into a
volatile situation with no backup, so that there would be no possibility of
conflicting stories from other officers invited to participate in the
adrenaline high involved.
He also had the foresight to waste the bitch with a shotgun, so that a wide
enough target area would be covered to take care of any potential witnesses
whose stories would not be subject to government pressure as to their
content.

Rest assured that if you murder a Wagon-Burner according to proper
procedure, that the members we claim not to be able to spare to supervise a
potentially deadly encounter with Wagon-Burners will suddenly become
available to pore over the murder site and absolve you of any wrongdoing.
A host of spin-doctors will also suddenly appear to remind the head
Wagon-Burners that 'good relations' with the Federal Government are
conditional on 'going along to get along.'

The RCMP Officers of the Wild, Wild West continue to lead the way in
keeping the Wagon-Burners constantly on the run, no matter how far they run
to try to escape.

The Estevan Detachment of the RCMP is living up to their long tradition of
effectively using other arms of law enforcement to effectively harass
Wagon-Burners while using a minimum of Federal resources.

You undoubtedly remember last year's article about the member of the City
of Estevan Police Department who was successful in getting the courts to
uphold his own brand of Frontier Justice for decades, until he made the
mistake of using a 'real' informant, thus making his cases vulnerable to
conflicting testimony as to his questionable activities.
As we reported, the prosecutor was able to railroad a couple of kids who
were represented by incompetent legal aide lawyers, by having the arresting
officer help to mentally muscle them outside the presence of legal counsel,
but the #1 Wagon-Burner on the local yokel's list was not able to be
railroaded at that time.

We reported with pride on the Estevan Detachment of the RCMP helping that
same local officer to once again set up the Wagon-Burner by helping in the
operation while staying out of the main action, so that the Wagon-Burner
and his White-Whore Wife were financially broken to the point where they
had to cop a plea.
Due to the Estevan Detachment's foresight, they didn't "get any on 'em"
when the local yokel finally got his chain yanked on bogus grounds that
protected the City of Estevan from taking any responsibility for his years
of abuse of authority.

To bring you up to date, not only is the Wagon-Burners oldest little
glue-sniffer currently being railroaded on criminal charges, but the
Estevan RCMP are once again setting a fire under the Wagon-Burner's ass by
supporting the Provincial Game Warden's persecution of the Wagon-Burner for
daring to hunt on the land that we stole from him, once again saving
Federal dollars from having to be used to finance their dirty work.

Today's Humor:

"First they came for the Wagon-Burners, but I was not a Wagon-Burner, so I
didn't speak up. Then they came for the Revisionists, but I was not a
Revisionist, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for the Freedom of Speech
Advocates, but I was not a Freedom of Speech Advocate, so I did not speak
up.
"Then they came for the Jews, and I got to put pepper-spray in their
Jesus-Killing eyes..."
~ Constable Hettinga
"I *love* this country!"
======================================================================





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 05:22:20 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:22:20 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809091239.HAA15369@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:51:49 -0700
> From: "William J. Hartwell" <billh at ibag.com>
> Subject: Re: radio net

> I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending secure
> packets, 
> using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic (There may be some FCC
> rules regarding this.

The FCC prohibits the transmission of encrypted data via analog or digital
signals by amateurs.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 05:32:02 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:32:02 +0800
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Worldwide Caution (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809091244.HAA15435@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories at stolaf.edu Wed Sep  9 03:16:16 1998
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:22:27 -0400
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories at stolaf.edu>
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Worldwide Caution
Sender: "U.S. Department of State" <76702.1202 at compuserve.com>
To: travel-advisories at stolaf.edu
Message-ID: <199809041625_MC2-5871-DEBE at compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Precedence: bulk
X-List-Info: LN=travel-advisories WHOM=76702.1202 at compuserve.com

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Worldwide Caution
============================================================
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT - WORLDWIDE CAUTION
 September 4, 1998


U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman


In light of the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya 
and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania on August 7, 1998 and the U.S. air 
strikes in Afghanistan and Sudan on August 20, 1998, the potential 
for retaliatory acts against Americans and American interests 
exists.  In addition, terrorists, including Osama Bin Ladin, 
continue their threats against the United States and have not 
distinguished between military and civilian targets.  We take these 
threats seriously.  The U.S. has increased security at United States 
Government facilities worldwide and a number of our posts have 
suspended or limited services to the public.

The Department of State reminds Americans to maintain a high level 
of vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their 
security awareness to lessen their vulnerability.  Americans should 
maintain a low profile, vary routes and times for all required 
travel, and treat mail from unfamiliar sources with suspicion.

American citizens traveling abroad should contact the nearest U.S. 
embassy or consulate by telephone or fax for up-to-date information 
on security conditions.  Current information on post operations is 
also available on the Internet at http://travel.state.gov.  In 
addition, U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult the 
Department of State's Public Announcements, Travel Warnings, 
Consular Information Sheets, and regional travel brochures.

This Public Announcement replaces the August 20, 1998, Public 
Announcement Worldwide Caution and expires on December 4, 1998.

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories at stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request at stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories





From Housh at johnsonfood.com  Wed Sep  9 06:13:41 1998
From: Housh at johnsonfood.com (Gregg Housh)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:13:41 +0800
Subject: Any good hacking sites?
Message-ID: <C5E0C2547C07D2119A4300609794107E030C7B@jfe-nt2.johnsonfood.com>



any1 not1ce th4t jun0 1s ju5t a5 b4d a5 aol?

Gregg
"If your going to use the net, might as well exploit little children."
	- Anonymous

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	kamikaze23 at juno.com [SMTP:kamikaze23 at juno.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, September 08, 1998 5:22 PM
> To:	cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject:	Any good hacking sites?
> 
> hey all,
> 
> any1 know of any good hacking sites that teach u the basics and stuff?
> 
> also, any1 here into AOL hacking???
> 
> thanx,
> ~Fallen Angel
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]





From vznuri at netcom.com  Wed Sep  9 06:28:23 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:28:23 +0800
Subject: IP: Casual Talk Can Produce Wealth of Corporate Intelligence Data
Message-ID: <199809100229.TAA03175@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: Richard Sampson <rjsa at sprintmail.com>
Subject: IP: Casual Talk Can Produce Wealth of Corporate Intelligence Data
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:42:21 -0400
To: "ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com" <ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com>

 Casual Talk Can Produce Wealth of Corporate Intelligence Data
Sep. 6 (The Record/KRTBN)--"Spies are the most important element in war,

" Sun Tzu wrote in "The Art of War," "because upon them depends an
army's ability to move."

The man in this story is one such spy, but his battlefield isn't a
blood-soaked Third World country, and his army wears no uniforms and
carries no guns. His battlefield is the grand panorama of world
commerce, his army a well-known, high-tech company in North Jersey.

This man -- he spoke on condition of anonymity -- for four years has
been the company's director of competitor intelligence. His job is to
study competitors and gather information his company can use to make
strategic decisions on everything from mergers to new-product launches
to pricing.

Unlike covert operatives -- who engage in all sorts of skulduggery to
gather information, from phone taps to undercover work -- he relies on
public sources: the Internet, government documents, published reports,
and trade shows.

Beyond that, his greatest resource is the eyes and ears of company
employees: the salesman who regularly encounters competitors on the
plane, the executive who hobnobs with officers from other high-tech
companies, the company spokesman who deals with the media, the
secretary who answers the phone.

"Eighty percent of what you need to know about your competition is
already in your company," he said. "You just don't know where it is."

On the Internet, this corporate spy will monitor competitors' Web
sites, and also his company's own, using software tools that allow him
to determine who is visiting the site and which pages they're viewing.
Since many competitors use aliases, additional research is necessary to
determine who is targeting the site.

He also monitors chat groups on the Web to determine who is discussing
his company in cyberspace.

Within the company itself, "several dozen" people are assigned
competitive intelligence functions, including human resources
personnel, secretaries, and press officers. But everybody is in on it.
Airline tickets issued to employees carry a suggestion to be
"competitor aware," a subtle reminder to keep eyes and ears open at all
times and to make sure they don't inadvertently leave documents where
competitors can find them.

And, according to the spy, it works. Here's how:
 In one instance, a salesperson preparing to demonstrate a product for
a customer was asked if any special equipment was needed. When the
salesperson requested a specific type of monitor, the customer said it
wouldn't be a problem, since a competing high-tech company had recently
requested the identical monitor.

>From that bit of information, the salesperson was able to determine
which product his competitor was pitching and to tailor his
presentation to point out the weaknesses in the competitor's product,
allowing him to close the sale.

In another instance, a salesperson called up a customer and discovered
that another company had begun offering a deep discount on a competing
product. The move was initially interpreted as a "full court press" to
gain market share, and the company began contemplating deep discounts
of its own.

But within 24 hours, the competitive intelligence unit -- using media
reports and the Internet -- was able to determine that the competitor
was trying to decide whether to discontinue the product. Salespeople
were dispatched with instructions to inform customers of that fact -- a
so-called FUD mission, since it instills "fear, uncertainty, and doubt"
in customers -- and a potentially devastating price war was averted.

"It was a bullet avoided," he said.
 The corporate spy's true forte, however, is the trade show, where
dozens of companies gather to hawk their wares, and schmoozing is the
order of the day.

As many as a dozen operatives will be employed to gather information
at a trade show, each one assigned to a specific exhibition booth,
panel discussion, or press conference.

One might sidle up to a human resources representative at a
competitor's exhibition booth, start a conversation about the
difficulty of finding good employees, and walk away minutes later with
the number of employees the company hired for a specific unit.

Another might collar a reporter for the trade press and pump him for
information. Another might be assigned to stake out the restaurant
where the executives from a competing company gather for breakfast
every morning. Another might hurl questions at a competing executive
who is speaking at a panel discussion.

"A lot of times you can ask them a question from the floor," he said.
"You never hear them say, 'Who do you work for again?' "

Within 24 to 48 hours, all the operatives will write down what they
have learned, which is then analyzed and condensed into a document for
distribution within the company.

The corporate spy says his operatives adhere to a strict ethics code
that prohibits them from misrepresenting who they are  and what they
are doing. The code also prohibits theft, trespassing, and other
illegal acts.

But he said the inability of most people to refrain from casual
conversation with a friendly stranger makes such tactics unnecessary.
What remains vitally necessary, however, is making the best use of the
information at one's disposal.

"You're not seeing Reds under the bed," he said, an allusion to Cold
War-era spying that targeted Communists. "You're trying to extend your
product cycle by six months. And you have to be aware that information
can sink you in a hurry."

By Louis Lavelle

-0-
 Visit The Record, Hackensack, N.J., on the World Wide Web at
http://www.bergen.com

(c) 1998, The Record, Hackensack, N.J. Distributed by Knight
Ridder/Tribune Business News.  END!A$9?HK-BIZ-SPY


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--
-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a
prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------





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From vznuri at netcom.com  Wed Sep  9 06:28:27 1998
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:28:27 +0800
Subject: IP: FTC: Internet merchant barred for life from "net-based" commerce
Message-ID: <199809100229.TAA03186@netcom13.netcom.com>




From: Richard Sampson <rjsa at sprintmail.com>
Subject: IP: FTC: Internet merchant barred for life from "net-based" commerce
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:10:43 -0400
To: "ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com" <ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com>

FTC: Internet merchant barred for life from "net-based" commerce
 SEP  9, 1998, M2 Communications - An Internet "entrepreneur" who
advertised low priced computers in online auction houses and collected
the sales price but never delivered the goods would be barred for life
from conducting any Internet commerce, under the terms of a settlement
with the Federal Trade Commission. The defendant, who did business as
Experienced Designed Computers and C&H Computer Services, would be
prohibited from advertising, marketing or selling goods or services via
the Internet, from making misrepresentations about any goods or
services he sells and from violating the Mail or Telephone Order
Merchandise Rule.

The defendant, Craig Lee Hare, also known as Danny Hare, operates
from Lake Worth, Florida.

In April, 1998, the FTC alleged that Hare had used online auction
houses to offer new and used computers for sale. After "successful
bidders" paid as much as $1,450 per computer, Hare provided them with
neither the computer nor a refund. At the request of the FTC, a federal
district judge issued a temporary restraining order and froze Hare's
assets, pending trial. The agency asked the court to issue an
injunction permanently barring Hare from violating the FTC Act and the
Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule. The stipulated permanent
injunction and final judgment announced today would settle those
charges.

The settlement would permanently bar Hare from participating in any
online commerce. It also would bar him from misrepresenting his
identity in commercial e-mail and misrepresenting any fact that is
material to a consumer's decision to purchase any goods or services in
any form of commerce. In addition, the order would prohibit future
violations of the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule. Finally,
the order provides record keeping provisions to allow the FTC to
monitor compliance.

Stephanie J. Herter, also known as Stephanie Branham, also entered in
a settlement with the Commission. She was named in the FTC complaint
against Hare as a relief defendant because checks Hare received from
consumers were deposited in her checking account. In settlement of the
charges against her, Herter will release Hare's funds in that account
to be used for consumer redress, or, if that is impractical, to be
deposited into the U.S. Treasury.

The stipulated permanent injunctions were filed in the U.S. District
Court, Southern District of Florida, West Palm Beach Division.

NOTE: These consent judgments are for settlement purposes only and do
not constitute an admission by the defendants of a law violation.
Consent judgments have the force of law when signed by the judge.

Copies of the complaint, Stipulated Final Judgment and Orders and a
consumer alert, "Online Auctions: Going, Going Gone!" are available
from the FTC's web site at http://www.ftc.gov and also from the FTC's
Consumer Response Center, Room 130, 6th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue,
N.W., Washington, D.C. 20580; 202-FTC-HELP (202-382-4357); TDD for the
hearing impaired 202-326-2502. To find out the latest news as it is
announced, call the FTC NewsPhone recording at 202-326-2710.

-0-



(C)1994-98 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTDCONTACT: Claudia Bourne Farrell,
Office of Public
Affairs
Tel: +1 202-326-2181



*M2 COMMUNICATIONS DISCLAIMS ALL LIABILITY FOR
INFORMATION PROVIDED WITHIN M2 PRESSWIRE. DATA
SUPPLIED BY NAMED PARTY/PARTIES.*


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[SALES] [TRADE] [TRIAL] [USA] [WASHINGTON]


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-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a
prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------





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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep  9 06:35:31 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:35:31 +0800
Subject: CP Cite
Message-ID: <199809091318.JAA17051@camel7.mindspring.com>



We're putting together copies of cpunk messages Jeff 
Gordon cites in the Carl Johnson complaint and have 
found all in the archives except one dated June10, 1998. 
Jeff describes it:

   15. On June 10, 1998, an anonymous message was 
   posted to the Cypherpunks Internet group. In the
   message, it is stated that the bomber "placed the bomb 
   before embarking on a middle-leg of the TruthMonger
   SoftTarget Tour of Planet Terra." The message also 
   referenced an RCMP plan to "drive a known madman 
   crazy enough to finally put him away turned bad, and
   resulted in a backlash of death and destruction ..." I 
   noted that this message contained information about the
   courthouse bomb incident which had not previously been 
   made public, and was written in a style and manner
   which I recognized as being similar to other writings 
   which my investigation has linked to JOHNSON. In his
   interview with Special Agent Sheridan, JOHNSON 
   acknowledged using the name TruthMonger, and also
   stated he had psychological problems, both of which 
   correspond to this message. 

We'd appreciate getting a copy (yes, Jeff, if you would, anon ok).

BTW, there's a brief message from Lucky Green yesterday
in the archives on CEJ which did not appear on the
cyberpass list, AFAIK, although it was sent to ssz.com. Do such
gaps happen much in CDR?

Yeah, yeah, I post to toad, and aim to be the last one who
does, so drive me AP-mad.

BTW2, anybody know what Linda Reed thinks of her infame?

BTW3, we heard from TX that CJ's music/perform art is going to 
be boosted in concert with his god-sent cornseed of publicity.







From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl  Wed Sep  9 06:54:35 1998
From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:54:35 +0800
Subject: Exported PGP
Message-ID: <501945eb2c5615fb70017a1fb5b2d1e3@anonymous>



I've never heard this anywhere else but I was browsing www.infowar.com and I saw this quote

Question the priorities 
Private sector intellectual property deserves pride of place 
Data integrity and system survivability are the priorities 
Unencumbered encryption is vital for national competitiveness 
Protecting all private sector data is more important than a marginal enhancement to our government�s ability to catch criminals and terrorists 
****PGP is not good enough�"exported PGP" has Soviet back doors 
Lotus reported to have given away half the key to NSA�Swedes are pissed 
  
Does anyone have info on this?  I assume that since the source code for PGP is publicly available someone would have questioned this already...

The full url I was using:
http://www.infowar.com/class_1/class1_083198a_j.shtml





From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Wed Sep  9 07:35:49 1998
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:35:49 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809092123.OAA17355@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <199809100350.UAA17882@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>



Petro <petro at playboy.com> wrote

>Could it be that certain large players (say, the U.K, U.S. Soviet
>Union &etc) have a vested interest in cheap oil as long as possible, 
>sothey do things (like create the state of israel, and give it lots of
> economic aid) to destablize the region, keep the people of that area at
> each others throats &etc. so that OPEC can't agree to control prices...
> 
> 	Nah, I'm just paranoid.

"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii at invweb.net> wrote

>Most of these countries are economically "one trick ponies" and 
>have little export revenue outside of oil. Because OPEC <sp?> has 
>been a failure at enforcing production quotas there is a surplus of 
>oil on the market thus driving down the cost (supply and demand).

As William stated most of the OPEC nations are economic "one trick 
ponies" whose leaders don't see the big picture and the benefits of a 
cartel where all members co-operate.  Israel was part of the 
justification for screwing the world for more money in the so called 
70s oil crisis.  I would think that if the Arabs didn't have Israel to hate 
they would find some other group.

If you go back to the late 40s you will find many political deals done 
by the British which didn't make a lot of sense.  The British walking 
out of Burma and turning political control over to whoever the goofs 
are that ruined that country made no sense whatsoever.  The British 
turned political control of Malaysia over to the ethnic Malays where 
the Malays are not the original people of that region.  The Malays 
were immigrants much like most of the Chinese, they just got there 
300 years earlier.  

Falling oil prices probably hurt the USA and Soviet governments 
more than any possible benefit.  The Soviets export oil so they are 
hurting.  The US and most other western style democracies tax oil 
products based on its wholesale cost and retail selling pricing so 
they would see reduced revenues.

>There are also large reserves of oil in Alaska, Siberia and 
>elsewhere that are going unused along with other reserves that are 
>too expensive to extract the oil at current market prices. The so 
>called "oil shortage" of the 70's had more to do with Oil Companies 
>profiteering than it did with any actual shortage. I have seen 
>estimates in the past of our domestic oil reserves showing that we 
>have enough oil to last another 100 years at out current rate of 
>increased consumption if we stopped all imports today. Simple 
>economics is that it is cheaper for us to import it than it is to
>produce it domestically.

You can add possible large reserves in the Canadian Arctic.  The oil 
companies started to find it and they tried to think of a way to 
transport it.  The Canadian gov't vetoed all the transportation 
alternatives so the oil companies stopped exploration.

The middle east countries do have the oil reserves with the lowest 
cost of production.  Most reserves in North American are moderate 
to high cost of production.

Now if you want to be paranoid....   Before the 70s energy crisis we 
all drove big cars which had no problem doing the 65 MPH speed 
limit and back then we used to pass on two-lane highways.  The 
energy crisis came and we all accepted gutless foreign made small 
cars which consumed less energy and had a problem with the 55 
MPH speed limit and passing was impossible on a two-lane highway 
even if we found a section which was not double-lined.  

Now we have cheap oil.  Big powerful vehicles are back and we are 
not embarrassed to consume energy any more.  I have no idea 
where society is heading but I do like have a more powerful vehicle 
which capable of passing a vehicle already doing 65 MPH.

>As much as the Greens whine and cry about alternative fuels, the 
>simple fact is that as long as oil is cheap no one is going to switch. 

The whole Greens or tree-hugger thing is a bit hypocritical.  Ask 
them if they have electrical appliances in their home and the answer 
is always yes.  For a number of years the Greenpeace fundraisers  
would show up at the door asking for money to battle the forest 
industry and the evil pulp mills which used chlorine in their bleaching 
process and they would have white paper in their clipboards.




Virtually

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 07:37:19 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:37:19 +0800
Subject: CP Cite (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809091442.JAA15831@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:12:28 -0400
> From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
> Subject: CP Cite

> BTW, there's a brief message from Lucky Green yesterday
> in the archives on CEJ which did not appear on the
> cyberpass list, AFAIK, although it was sent to ssz.com. Do such
> gaps happen much in CDR?

I've noticed such discrepencies in the past as well. Unfortunately I have
been unable to figure out exactly why a particular remailer (I've seen every
one do this at one time or another) will drop the resend. I don't know
whether it's a time out in the various time-to-lives or what. I've noticed
that the various remailers will sometimes change message id's causing
multiple copies as well. I don't believe it's important since it doesn't
happen very often, as near as I can determine. As long as any archives
subscribe to all the lists and use some sort of duplicate filtering it
shouldn't be a real issue.

I do know that SSZ holds messages at least 4 days and my ISP holds them for
5 days so I don't think it's a connection problem resulting in dropped
traffic.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  9 08:08:16 1998
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:08:16 +0800
Subject: MISTY encryption algorithm source code
Message-ID: <19980910035745.18097.qmail@hotmail.com>

MISTY source code posted by me at long ago had many mistake.
Attachment file are revised MISTY source code and revised readme.
Thanks.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


misty.zip

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From brian at smarter.than.nu  Wed Sep  9 08:12:05 1998
From: brian at smarter.than.nu (Brian W. Buchanan)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:12:05 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809091239.HAA15369@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809090755430.270-100000@smarter.than.nu>



On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:

> > Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:51:49 -0700
> > From: "William J. Hartwell" <billh at ibag.com>
> > Subject: Re: radio net
> 
> > I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending secure
> > packets, 
> > using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic (There may be some FCC
> > rules regarding this.
> 
> The FCC prohibits the transmission of encrypted data via analog or digital
> signals by amateurs.

I'd love to see them try to enforce that.  What about chaffing and
winnowing?  Stego?  Transmission of random noise? ;)  Anyone have the text
of the actual rules concerning this?

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian at smarter.than.nu

Never believe that you know the whole story.





From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Wed Sep  9 08:13:02 1998
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:13:02 +0800
Subject: Spot The Fed
Message-ID: <199809100428.VAA17926@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>



About a week ago I sent a message the list regarding Toto and how I 
found it hard to believe he was a country & western artist.  I 
mentioned a tribute to Toto and an URL pointing to a web page on a 
data security product at a web site which is total spoof.

The URL lead to a page touting a data security product called PUP, 
Pretty Useless Privacy.  I shamelessly plagiarized Toto's concept, 
and even some of sentences, from a post on Pretty Lousy Privacy.  
I even managed to get most of the characteristics of Snake Oil in 
one sentence.  The graphics on the page is a Snake Charmer.

Now you figure the Feds will visit for sure, just try and spot them.  
Resolve the IP addresses to a domain name might work but if they 
had a clue they would use dummy domains.

I would like to nominate the folks at IP address 204.249.179.54, or 
better yet the whole Class C as possible Feds.  The IP address does 
not resolve to a domain name, actually all the IP address in the 
Class C plus the 204.249.178 Class C.  I didn't bother to try any 
other neighbouring Class Cs.

I can understand a few IP addresses of isolated machines not 
resolving to a domain name but not the whole Class C.  You should 
also be able to see the default gateway's domain name.  

Seems like this may be the site of some paranoid privacy loving 
folks.  If I have slandered any Cypherpunk and their company, who 
may be at least privacy loving, please accept my apologies in 
advance but please let me know if I made a mistake. 








From ian.sparkes at 17.dmst02.telekom400.dbp.de  Wed Sep  9 08:13:16 1998
From: ian.sparkes at 17.dmst02.telekom400.dbp.de (Sparkes, Ian, ZFRD AC)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:13:16 +0800
Subject: Archives? What archives? (fwd)
Message-ID: <000001b000000184*/c=de/admd=dbp/prmd=telekom400/o=dmst02/ou=17/s=sparkes/g=ian/@MHS>



Here's the deal...

if someone gets a copy of the archives to me somehow, I 
pledge that I will get them  burned and will distribute 
them for cost price. I assume there will be two CDs as the 
data is apparently around 1GB. I have already checked, and 
for a run of 300 (should be enough to cover all the 
non-apathetic CP list members) the costs are:
     DM1,67 = 92 cents each
     = $1,84 + VAT = $2,15.
Add postage onto this.

A really great idea would be to include the coderpunks 
archive on any space that were left over. But first of all, 
I'll keep the focus as the greatest enemy of 'good' is 
'great'.

Note: IMPORTANT: The rep was emphatic - you shouldn't 
forget that this price includes *2 color* labelling! Makes 
the offer kind of irresistable doesn't it?

Why am I doing this? Because just as Tim pointed out, this 
has been discussed more than once but there have been no 
results. At least none that I have heard of in the last 
year.

One point - I am outside of the US. Good for europeans, but 
perhaps a little expensive for US-CPs. Maybe someone would 
like to take over the US distribution. (WHGIII?) I could 
get 50% to the states for distribution.

Anyone wants to arrange this with me, contact me off-list. 
If no one does, then I'll start bugging people until 
something happens <g>... 

Ian

At 14:28 04.09.98 -0500, you wrote:
>In 
<Pine.HPP.3.91.980904210041.12475B-100000_cor.sos.sll.se>, 
on 09/04/98 
>   at 09:02 PM, Asgaard <asgaard_cor.sos.sll.se> said:
>
>>Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>>>It was done... Remo Pini (www.rpini.org or some such) 
was the dude
>
>>www.rpini.com
>
>>Crypto CD Vol 1 has lots of stuff on it but I never found 
any archive of
>>the CP list(s). Perhaps I didn't look enough.
>
>I didn't find any either.
>
>Also someone mentioned previously of pre-1995 online 
archives. Anyone have
>a pointer to these?
>
>There is a local company here that does CD duplication and 
Harddrive
>archiving to CD. I can check and see how much they would 
want to burn a CD
>with the CP archives on it. I would imagine that list 
members would prefer
>RockRidge extensions? OS/2 supports both Joliet & 
Rockridge so it does not
>matter to me one way or the other. :)
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------
-----
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
>----------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>
>





From petro at playboy.com  Wed Sep  9 08:28:15 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:28:15 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809082359.SAA12044@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03110704b21c4832f604@[206.189.103.244]>



At 11:22 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <199809082359.SAA12044 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 09/08/98
>   at 06:59 PM, Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com> said:
>
>>Forwarded message:
>
>>> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:17:45 -0500
>>> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
>
>>> planet and take all that fucking oil with them.
>
>>I wonder how the new realization that the calthrate deposits in the ocean
>>bottem off the continental shelf make fine fuel and it's replenishable
>>and may be of a larger quantity than the oil reserves will effect the
>>power balance.
>
>Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
>oil,

	There already are several, the problem is the cannot be centralized
the way oil is.

	Alcohol is acceptable (and in some ways better) than gasoline for
cars and motorcycles, but anyone can set up a still and compete with RDS &
Standard. A mix of solar, wind, coal, hydroelectric, nuclear and other
sources can provide most of the rest of the power we need. It is just a
matter of being willing to make the investment in the changeover.

> the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

	Yeah, and the US will suddenly find that there is no longer an
reason to provide Isreal with HOW MUCH military support per year?

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Sep  9 08:39:21 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:39:21 +0800
Subject: radio net
In-Reply-To: <E0zGSWY-0002wH-00@arianrhod.systemics.ai>
Message-ID: <35F6A0C6.76D3@lsil.com>



Ryan Lackey wrote:
> 
> Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net (probably packet radio
> relay) to relay small quantities of data in the event the telecommunications
> infrastructure becomes unavailable (either technically or legally/politically/
> militarily)?  There are existing packet relay nets, but in my experience
> amateur radio people, especially in the US, are very willing to roll over
> for the government at the slightest cause.
> 
> I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could
> be done in a fairly turnkey fashion.  Exactly how to handle routing and
> what protocol to use on the network is kind of an open question -- there
> are a lot of solutions, none of them optimal.

This is a very nice idea but tread carefully here. RF communications is
one area in which the no-domestic-crypto law IS established. The idea of
spies with shortwaves in their cigar boxes may seem hopelessly outdated
but I think the law still stands. Talk to some packet radio guys - I
think some have had trouble just sending unknown file formats. This was
a while back though - who knows - progress may have been made.

Mike





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  9 08:42:18 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:42:18 +0800
Subject: usa-v-cej-wc.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809090053.TAA12423@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03130308b21c4e709187@[209.66.100.149]>



At 1:56 AM -0700 9/9/98, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:
>(Quoting criminal complaint)
>> >    Internet group known as the "Cypherpunks." During the investigation of
>>
>> This guy has experience with the Internet and doesn't know the difference
>> between a group and a mailing list, what a maroon.
>
>I am sure he knows the difference. And in this case he was talking about
>a "Cypherpunks group", as in "the Cypherpunks militia", as in "criminal
>organization", not as in mailing list.

Who told him about the Cypherpunks Militia?  Does he know about the Jihad
to Liberate the Encrypted Places? Do they know about Cypherpunks Target
Practice?

(BTW, the use of the terms "group" and "mailing list" semi-interchangeably
is a natural one. I do it all the time. Check the archives.)

--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 08:45:13 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:45:13 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809091556.KAA16265@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:03:25 -0500
> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)

> 	There already are several, the problem is the cannot be centralized
> the way oil is.

That's not really the problem...

> 	Alcohol is acceptable (and in some ways better) than gasoline for
> cars and motorcycles, but anyone can set up a still and compete with RDS &
> Standard.

The problem with alcohol is that there isn't enough free land in order grow
enough plant material to provide the necessary quantities without seriously
restricting the amount of land available for actual foodstuffs and living
space (unless you want everyone to move to Black Rock desert or live on the
top of a mountain).

Alcohol is also much more of a fire hazard than gas. It burns hotter, isn't
put out by water spray easily, and burns invisibly (well all right in the
near-UV).

> A mix of solar

Again not enough land to make it feasible, not to mention the low efficiency
of even the best panels.

> wind

Not enough places in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) where the 
wind blows with sufficient force 18 hours a day to make it economical.

> coal

Coal isn't an acceptable substitute, mainly because there isn't enough
low-sulphur deposits in the world to supply the US, let alone the rest of
the world. Plus it isn't renewable.

> hydroelectric

Not enough rivers with sufficient hydrodynamic head to make this work
for the US let alone the rest of the planet.

> nuclear

I'll buck the general consensus because I like nuclear energy, however there
is a single MAJOR caveat, we need fussion and not fission reactors to make
it economical. The waste problem with fission reactors is enough to vote
in the negative on them.

> and other sources

cop-out.

The reality is that the clathrate deposits occur across the entire ocean.
The existing Magnesium Nodule treaties could be extended to cover the
countries that don't have coastlines. They are the first renewable,
occurring in sufficient quantity, and with realizable and economicly
feasible methods for mining, processing, and distributing to have been put
on the table.

As to the gas and oil folk being against them, they're about the only ones
with an existing infrastructure (ie extracting oil and gas from the sea
floor) to take advantage of the source, implying that existing changes in
the infrastructure would be minor.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Sep  9 08:54:10 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:54:10 +0800
Subject: Zooko on JYA, cpunks, and surveillance (was: Re: Can't tell the kooks without a scorecard? Re: Monkey Wrenching the Echelon Engine)
In-Reply-To: <2C396693FBDED111AEF60000F84104A721BFA5@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: <35F6A1BF.559A@lsil.com>



Fisher Mark wrote:
> I've had some dealings with
> local government people on real estate issues (who have generally been
> reasonably helpful), and the set of people who like practical jokes has a
> (nearly?) null intersection with the set of people who go into government
> service.
>
Heard a good Jefferson quote on cpsan -

"Literalism is a hobgoblin of small minds" -Thomas Jefferson





From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph  Wed Sep  9 08:54:22 1998
From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:54:22 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail....
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980910124631.26386B-100000@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>



Do you have the same mail?
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:27:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jrjeffro at aol.com

HaCkaZ OnlY Da EliTeHelLO YaLL DiS is Da MaDD AAOOLL HaCka Ima startin a GreWp fOR HaCs Only So In OthA WerDS yA gOttA KnOw The WAreZ anD HoW toO UsEr FaTe AnD AOL So MaIl Or Im Me FoR Da TeTaIls If YeR LeeTo K Pe at CE FrOmE The LeeTs HacKJeFFrO)
>





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  9 08:56:37 1998
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:56:37 +0800
Subject: Misty bot  (Re: MISTY encryption algorithm source code)
In-Reply-To: <19980910035745.18097.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03130301b21d0b70112d@[209.133.20.4]>



At 8:57 PM -0700 9/9/98, Nobuki Nakatuji  <bd1011 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>MISTY source code posted by me at long ago had many mistake.
>Attachment file are revised MISTY source code and revised readme.
>Thanks.
>

Does this guy have any life besides popping up every several weeks and
making a stupid comment about "MISTY"?

He never engages in debate, he never comments on things going on in Japan,
he never comments on export issues, he doesn't even defend himself from our
criticisms. He must be a bot...the Misty bot.

"My name Nobuki-san. You send money, I send source. Chop-chop, you go now.
I go read Misty Manga. "

(This last paragraph thrown in to make sure the various folks redolent with
"Caucasian guilt" will snort and sniff and claim I am a racist...because
Nobuki Nakatuji, with his suspicious "hotmail.com" address, sure won't step
forward.)

--Tim May

(This space left blank pending determ. of acceptability to the gov't.)
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep  9 09:10:24 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:10:24 +0800
Subject: Toto describing a visit from SS agents
In-Reply-To: <199809100035.BAA07635@server.eternity.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980909220905.16915C-100000@well.com>



I mention the alleged threats against the president in my article today,
and link to the email.

-Declan

On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Again while searching for keys, another encrypted message (Subject:
> Secret Service With A Smile - SAHMD!!! / Pwd: lco, Date: 31 Jul 98)
> this message appears to refer to a visit from US Secret Service
> agents, apparently due to their imputing some kind of threat to US
> president(?) in one of Toto's rants.
> 
> Decrypted copy below [1].
> 
> Adam
> 
> [1]
> ======================================================================
> Secret Service With A Smile - SPACE ALIENS HIDE MY DRUGS!!!
> ___________________________________________________________
> 
>   It was only natural for me to wonder what it was about the Secret
> Service Agents who visited me today that enabled them to act like
> decent, pleasant people during the course of the personal interview
> portion of their investigation into my life and psyche.
> 
>   The question was answered, to my satisfaction, at the point when
> the more veteran of the two agents explained that, despite my
> rugged handsomeness and my delightful personality, they would have
> to CrushMeLikeABug if it became apparent to them that my already
> tentative physical and mental existence came into conflict with
> their official duty to protect the President of the United States.
>   I realized that they were professionals, with a high degree of
> integrity, and that their concern probably went far beyond the
> fact that if the Nation lost the CommanderInChief on their shift,
> they could pretty much kiss their Christmas Bonus goodbye...
>   It was also apparent that their ability to be quite reasonable
> and pleasant human beings--while making it plain that informing me
> that putting me away for observation in Springfield, Missouri,
> could easily take away a full year of my life, was *meant* to be
> a threat--without having to engage in a heavy-handed affectation
> of MachoAuthority, was the result of their actually *having* the
> authority to decide, here and now, whether or not my life would
> instantly become a living hell.
> 
>   The Secret Service Agents were also extremely intelligent, not
> even blinking before passing on my offer to testify against myself,
> in return for immunity from prosecution.
>  (When I made the same offer to RCMP OffalSlurs, they had to 
>   contact their superiors, who held a meeting with OffalSchills
>   behind the closed doors of the Canadian Justice Apartment,
>   before finally declining my offer.)
> 
>   I was able to relax and be cooperative in dealing with the 
> Agents, since, when your fate is in the hands of someone with
> GenuineAuthority, whether their intentions are GoodOrEvil (TM)
> is not nearly as important as to whether or not they happen to
> be StupidFucks (TM) who can ruin your life over something as
> simple as misunderstanding your request that they make their
> questions more 'lucid.'
>  ("That's it, you sick, fucking pervert! Jim, get the kilo of
>   heroin out of the trunk...")
> 
> Wrong Question #29 When Dealing With StupidFucks:
>   "Excuse me, but do your employers *know* that you carry a gun?
> I mean, have they ever met you, or were you hired by mail? Can
> you actually shoot a gun without moving your lips?"
> 
>   Although the Secret Service Agents were in possession of an
> email I had sent a few minutes or hours previously, from Pima
> College --> <erehwon at dis.org> (who I immediately tried to Rat
> Out as the leader of a ChildSexRingDedicatedToTheViolentOver
> ThrowOfTheUSGovernment, in order to save my own skin), the
> agents seemed much more interested in a chapter of SAHMD!!!
> which contains notification of an OfficialDeathThreat to pretty
> much DoGodAndEverybodyOnTheFaceOfTheEarth.
>   I tried to placate them by reaching over with a pen and adding
> an 'Un' in front of the word 'Official,' but they were not really
> impressed, informing me that the point they were trying to make
> had to do with it being unacceptable, from their point of view,
> for me to use the words 'Death,' 'Threat,' and 'President' all
> in the same paragraph, let alone all in the same sentence.
> {"Well, excuuusssee *me*!"}
>   Realizing that it was probably not an opportune moment to try to
> hit them up for a donation toward the maintenance of my planned
> PresidentialDeathThreatAnonymousRemailer, I casually turned the
> donation jar so that they couldn't see the label, and I set it
> down.
> 
>   Actually, I couldn't be certain that I had actually written the
> chapter, or portion thereof, with which the agents seemed most
> concerned, since I find it difficult to distinguish between the
> work that is mine alone, and the work that is a collage of various
> participants in the writing and dissemination of 'The True Story
> of the InterNet' manuscripts, if I don't have access to the files
> on the computer on which they were created and stored.
>   Nonetheless, I refrained from pointing out that the phrase that
> indicates that the writer "might" conceivably "whack" someone or
> another GovernmentPersonage, might equally apply to the stance
> taken by the Secret Service Agents, themselves, if the Founding
> Fathers were to be believed when they indicated that it is the
> right and the duty of the citizenry to take up arms against their
> rulers, if need be, in the interest of Democracy, Freedom, Justice,
> or in DivineRetribution against the High&Mighty if they take a drink
> out of your beer while you're in the restroom, having a leak.
>  (I'm not certain about that last example, but I have no doubt that
>   the Founding Fathers *meant* to include that...)
> 
>   I refrained from attempting to engage the Agents in philosophical
> debate in regard to some of the finer points surrounding the issues
> of Freedom of Speech, since the purpose of their visit was obviously
> geared toward impressing upon me the duties encompassed by their job
> description, their professional competence in doing their job, and
> the fact that the necessity of making a return visit would very
> likely be an indication that Uncle Sam was about to become my new
> landlord.
>   To tell the truth, I was in a pretty scattered state of mind at
> the time of their visit, and I undoubtedly failed to adequately
> understand a good portion of the dialogue which took place, but
> they were very clear in explaining that, given my current state
> of unwelcomeness in Canada, I am running out of countries to go
> to, and that I should give serious consideration as to whether or
> not I wanted my next Literary Spamology to be titled, "Midnight 
> Express II."
>   Hhhmmm...decisions, decisions...
> 
>   Since my reading of the Secret Service Agents is that they are
> highly ethical professionals, with little need to persecute an
> individual out of thin-skinned, personal vindictiveness, I guess
> it wouldn't hurt to mention that, minutes after their departure,
> Linda Lou arrived home, announcing that there was yet another
> Tarantula in the driveway, headed toward the house...
> 
>   The obvious conclusion, of course, is that the Secret Service
> Agents are actually Reptilian Nazis, who are deeply involved in
> the WorldWidePlotAgainstMe.
>   This, in turn, leads to the dilemma of whether or not I should,
> on the occasion of a return visit, jump them and drive wooden stakes
> through their hearts, turning them into quivering pools of smoking,
> green slime. 
>  (Or is that Vampires? Shit! I'd better check, first, or it could
>   lead to a really embarassing situation.)
> 
>   On the other hand, since they were quite civil and reasonable
> in their dealings with me, and they apparently didn't eat any of
> the dogs, while here (although it might have been a different
> story, if we had poodles), then perhaps their is a chance that
> we and the Reptilian Nazis can live together in peace...unless it
> is a SneakyTrick (TM), of course...and they are trying to *confuse*
> me, so that I don't warn TheOthers...and they were only so pleasant
> because they were inwardly laughing at me for not realizing that,
> starting tomorrow, they are going to take control of the whole face
> of the globe, turning all humans into LobotomizedSlaves who exist
> only to serve their ReptilianNaziMasters!
> 
> QUICK, EVERYBODY! ARM YOURSELVES AND RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
> PREPARE TO ENGAGE THE REPTILIAN NAZIS IN VIOLENT, BLOODY STRUGGLE!
> START BY WHACKING OUT THE LAWYERS, AND THEN...
> 
>   Hold it! What the fuck am I ranting on about?
>   The Masses are *already* LobotomizedSlaves who exist only to serve
> their ReptilianNaziMasters...
> 
>   Maybe the agents were just here to see whether or not Baby is a
> poodle.
>   That makes more sense, since the Reptilian Nazis don't really 
> give a FatRat'sAss about the Jews, but they *do* want to round up
> all of the poodles shortly before the arrival of their Reptilian
> Nazi Relatives, so that there is plenty of barbeque at their
> PicnicToCelebrateTheConquestOfEarth.
>   Yeah, that's gotta be it...
> 
>   Actually, I'm rather glad that the Secret Service Agents dropped
> around to meet me in person, since people reading my copious literary
> effluvia sometimes mistakenly get the impression that I am some kind
> of Dogamned Weirdo, or something.
>   Still, I wish I had been able to refrain from going, "Cuckoo-Cuckoo"
> on the hour and the half-hour during their vist.
>   But, what the hell...I bet that a *lot* of the people they visit
> do that...
> ======================================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 





From brownrk1 at texaco.com  Wed Sep  9 13:12:27 1998
From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:12:27 +0800
Subject: PEDIATRIC ADVISE -  FREE WEBSITE
Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F840A@MSX11002>



> Oh and the language they use!  It's all
> f*** this and f*** that -- if only their Mothers could hear them.

Who's to say they can't?  Mothers can read mailing lists too you know
:-)

Ken 





From stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep  9 13:24:48 1998
From: stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:24:48 +0800
Subject: Carl Johnson's private key
In-Reply-To: <199809092006.NAA10324@zendia.mentat.com>
Message-ID: <19980910102249.B27659@tightrope.demon.co.uk>



On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 10:25:15PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:

> Well let's see how many Toto keys we can find which were posted to
> cpunks.

Type Bits KeyID      Created    Expires    Algorithm       Use
pub  2048 0xE839FC79 1997-05-21 ---------- RSA             Sign & Encrypt 
uid  TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
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=fA4n
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-- 
pgp 1024/D9C69DF9 1997/10/14 steve mynott <steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk>





From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Sep  9 13:32:16 1998
From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:32:16 +0800
Subject: MISTY encryption algorithm source code
In-Reply-To: <19980910035745.18097.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <35F79AEE.1F8CAB7@stud.uni-muenchen.de>



Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> MISTY source code posted by me at long ago had many mistake.
> Attachment file are revised MISTY source code and revised readme.
> Thanks.

Can you give good literature references to MISTY?

M. K. Shen





From proff at iq.org  Wed Sep  9 14:10:42 1998
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:10:42 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks archive
Message-ID: <19980910100541.10897.qmail@iq.org>




I'm looking for a/the cypherpunks archive, particularly one that
covers 92-present. infinity.nus.sg doesn't seem to work anymore.

Cheers,
Julian.





From sorens at workmail.com  Wed Sep  9 14:53:39 1998
From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:53:39 +0800
Subject: Packet Radio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980909005149.0081d100@mail.xroads.com>
Message-ID: <35F7B0DA.CBD0CC07@workmail.com>



What about SSB?

User of DOOM wrote:

> >>>>> William J Hartwell <billh at ibag.com> writes:
>
>   > I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending
>   > secure packets, using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic
>
> FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either
> encrypted OR commercial traffic.  Either of these restrictions makes
> amateur radio networks useless for CP purposes.  And hams are very
> diligent at self-enforcement, often devoting hundreds of man-hours to
> track down a single unlicenced operator.
>
> Anyone who wishes to establish a network that may -- at any point in
> its life -- have to operate outside the "law" (whatever THAT happens
> to be at the time) will be well advised to steer clear of the amateur
> radio community.







From support at connectfree.net  Wed Sep  9 16:15:19 1998
From: support at connectfree.net (Connectfree Admins)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:15:19 +0800
Subject: Error.
Message-ID: <00e7c5250110a98WEB@www.telinco.net>



We are experiencing some technical difficulties with our
software. Please ignore this message.





From billp at nmol.com  Wed Sep  9 17:00:28 1998
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:00:28 +0800
Subject: Official comment
Message-ID: <35F7C9BB.7B5E@nmol.com>

http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/aes_home.htm#comments

  OFFICIAL Comments - Anyone may provide NIST with OFFICIAL public    
comments on the AES candidate algorithms. NOTE  THAT ALL COMMENTS  
RECEIVED SHALL BE MADE PART OF THE PUBLIC RECORD. A comment may be    
submitted by sending an e-mail message to AESFirstRound at nist.gov. 

OFFICIAL Comment

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/bw1.htm

to appear at http://zolatimes.com/

Title: Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms





Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms
by William H. Payne




  The purpose of this article is to explain the underlying principles
  of cryptography by examples, and to show some criteria that should be
  met by cryptographic algorithms before they are seriously considered
  for adoption.



Cryptography is the art or science of scrambling plaintext into ciphertext with a key
so that it cannot be read by anyone who does not possess the key.

Digital information is stored in the form of 1s and 0s, called BINARY.

Binary Numbers

Let�s count from DECIMAL 0 to 15 in BINARY by adding 1 to the previous number.




decimal:
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

binary:
0
1
10
11
100
101
110
111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111


Notice that first we start with a single number position, which can be 0 or 1 in BINARY.  This
number position is a bit.  Call this first bit b0.
Notice that b0 is either 0 or 1.  That is, b0 = 0 or b0 = 1.

To get to DECIMAL 2, we have to introduce a second BINARY bit--call it b1.  
We have b1b0 = 10.  Next, for DECIMAL 3, we have BINARY b1b0 = 11.




binary:
0
1
10
11
100
101
110
111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111

numbered bits:
b0
b0
b1b0
b1b0
b2b1b0
b2b1b0
b2b1b0
b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0
b3b2b1b0



Notice that the bit subscript represents a power of 2.  That is, b0 really
means

b0*2^0,

where * is multiplication, and ^ exponentiation (for example, 2^0 = 1, 2^1 = 2, 2^2 = 4, 2^3 = 8).
The subscript on b is the same as the power on 2.  

If we had b26, we would know its meaning was b26*2^26.
If b26 = 0, then this value is 0.  If b26 = 1, then
this value is 2^26.

Now look at "1111" (which in BINARY is equal to DECIMAL 15).  In this
case, b3b2b1b0 = 1111.  The
right-most BIT (b0) is the least-significant bit, because
it corresponds to the lowest power of 2.

Converting Binary Numbers to Decimal Numbers

To convert a BINARY number ...b3b2b1b0 to
a DECIMAL number Y, we simply write


        Y =  b0 + b1 * 2 + b2 * 2^2 + b3 * 2^3 + ...


The bits b0, b1, b2, b3 are limited to the values 0 and 1 ONLY.

Performing the exponentiation of powers of 2 and reversing the bits gives


        Y =  . . . + b3 * 8  +  b2 * 4 + b1 * 2 +  b0 .  


Most of us were brought-up to understand that  the most significant digits are to the LEFT of the previous 
digit.

For sake of economy of writing and easy conversion, binary numbers are frequently represented
in base 16, or HEXADECIMAL, abbreviated HEX.

Hexadecimal Numbers



BinaryweightsHEXDECIMAL
8 4 2 1
      0    0  0
      1    1  1
    1 0    2  2
    1 1    3  3
  1 0 0    4  4
  1 0 1    5  5
  1 1 0    6  6
  1 1 1    7  7
1 0 0 0    8  8
1 0 0 1    9  9
1 0 1 0    A 10
1 0 1 1    B 11
1 1 0 0    C 12
1 1 0 1    D 13
1 1 1 0    E 14
1 1 1 1    F 15


Conversion from binary to hexadecimal or hexadecimal to binary is easy if you remember

1010 is A  
1100 is C  
1110 is E

B is one greater than A, 1011.   D is one greater than C, 1101.  And F is one greater than E, 1111.

Computer Memory

Computer memory is frequently organized as BYTEs which are eight bits.

Since one hexadecimal digit represents 4 bits, it takes two hexadecimal digits to represent one byte.

There are 2^8 = 256 different binary values that can be represented in
a byte.  These 256 values (written in HEX for brevity) are:



00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 1A 1B 1C 1D 1E 1F
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 2A 2B 2C 2D 2E 2F
30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 3A 3B 3C 3D 3E 3F
40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 4A 4B 4C 4D 4E 4F
50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 5A 5B 5C 5D 5E 5F
60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 6A 6B 6C 6D 6E 6F
70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 7A 7B 7C 7D 7E 7F
80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 8A 8B 8C 8D 8E 8F
99 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 9A 9B 9C 9D 9E 9F
A0 A1 A2 A3 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8 A9 AA AB AC AD AE AF
B0 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5 B6 B7 B8 B9 BA BB BC BD BE BF
C0 C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6 C7 C8 C9 CA CB CC CD CE CF
D0 D1 D2 D3 D4 D5 D6 D7 D8 D9 DA DB DC DD DE DF
E0 E1 E2 E3 E4 E5 E6 E7 E8 E9 EA EB EC ED EE EF
FF F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 F9 FA FB FC FD FE FF


Representing Language on a Computer

The problem of how to represent characters in a computer has been solved several ways.  One
way is the American Standard Code of Information Interchange (ASCII).

ASCII represents characters as 7 bits.

Here is table modified from a web site
(
http://members.tripod.com/~plangford/index.html).


 Hex Char Description             Hex Char   Hex Char   Hex Char
----------------------            --------- ---------- ----------
  00  NUL (null)                   20         40  @      60    `
  01  SOH (start of heading)       21  !      41  A      61    a    
  02  STX (start of text)          22  "      42  B      62    b    
  03  ETX (end of text)            23  #      43  C      63    c    
  04  EOT (end of transmission)    24  $      44  D      64    d    
  05  ENQ (enquiry)                25  %      45  E      65    e    
  06  ACK (acknowledge)            26  &      46  F      66    f    
  07  BEL (bell)                   27  '      47  G      67    g    
  08   BS (backspace)              28  (      48  H      68    h    
  09  TAB (horizontal tab)         29  )      49  I      69    i    
  0A   LF (line feed, new line)    2A  *      4A  J      6A    j    
  0B   VT (vertical tab)           2B  +      4B  K      6B    k    
  0C   FF (form feed, new page)    2C  ,      4C  L      6C    l    
  0D   CR (carriage return)        2D  -      4D  M      6D    m    
  0E   SO (shift out)              2E  .      4E  N      6E    n    
  0F   SI (shift in)               2F  /      4F  O      6F    o    
  10  DLE (data link escape)       30  0      50  P      70    p    
  11  DC1 (device control 1)       31  1      51  Q      71    q    
  12  DC2 (device control 2)       32  2      52  R      72    r    
  13  DC3 (device control 3)       33  3      53  S      73    s    
  14  DC4 (device control 4)       34  4      54  T      74    t    
  15  NAK (negative acknowledge)   35  5      55  U      75    u    
  16  SYN (synchronous idle)       36  6      56  V      76    v    
  17  ETB (end of trans. block)    37  7      57  W      77    w    
  18  CAN (cancel)                 38  8      58  X      78    x    
  19   EM (end of medium)          39  9      59  Y      79    y    
  1A  SUB (substitute)             3A  :      5A  Z      7A    z    
  1B  ESC (escape)                 3B  ;      5B  [      7B    {    
  1C   FS (file separator)         3C  <      5C  \      7C    |    
  1D   GS (group separator)        3D  =      5D  ]      7D    }    
  1E   RS (record separator)       3E  >      5E  ^      7E    ~    
  1F   US (unit separator)         3F  ?      5F  _      7F  DEL


Now let us take two different one-word messages we might wish to cipher: "black" and "white".  We
can use the preceding table to find the ASCII codes for the characters in "black" and "white".
                  


messagecharacterASCII (Hex)Binary
Message 1black62 6C 61 63 6B0110 0010 0110 1100 0110 0001 0110 0011 0110 1011
Message 2white77 68 69 74 650111 0111 0110 1000 0110 1001 0111 0100 0110 0101


But before doing this, we must understand the general "cipher problem."

The Cipher Problem

We have three elements in the encryption process:


        1.  The plaintext message 
        2.  The key               
        3.  The ciphertext

Let�s start REAL SIMPLE.  Let's consider a situation where the plaintext
message, the key, and the ciphertext are all the same length.  To
make it even simpler, let's make each one only one bit long.  So the key
can be one of two possibilities (0 or 1), and so can the plaintext and
the ciphertext.  So, in all, there are 2*2*2 = 8 total possible encipherment
circumstances.

Let�s enumerate ALL 8 POSSIBILITIES.



Possibilities Table
PossibilityKeyPlaintextCiphertext
1000
2001
3010
4011
5100
6101
7110
8111


That�s it!  There are no more possibilities than these 8.  What does this
mean for the encryption process--the "algorithm"?

An ALGORITHM is a deterministic processes that accepts inputs and transforms them into outputs.

"Deterministic" is important in that the same inputs ALWAYS produce the same output.

Consider ANY algorithm which takes as its inputs the key values of 0 or 1 and the plaintext message
values of 0 or 1.

ANY algorithm can only produce one of the ciphertext outputs seen above.  Image the following
hypothetical but REAL SIMPLE algorithm:


Hypothetical Algorithm:  Find the value of the Key in column 2 of the Possibilities Table
and the Plaintext message in column 3; then chose as the Ciphertext output whatever number is found
in column 4 of that row.


But there, of course, is a catch with a valid CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHM.  

Given the Key and the Ciphertext, one must be able to get back the Plaintext!  

A  cryptographic algorithmic should have an INVERSE.

So a cryptographic algorithm could not produce ALL of the eight combinations seen above for the
reason that it is impossible to invert some of the possibilities.  For example, some of the mappings
are incompatible from an inverse standpoint, because same values of the key and ciphertext
can lead to two different values of the plaintext.  Notice how the following pairs of possibilities
conflict: 1 and 3; 2 and 4; 5 and 7; 6 and 8.



PossibilityKeyPlaintextCiphertext
1000
3010

2001
4011

5100
7110

6101
8111


But there two different cryptographic algorithms that could be made from the
Possibilities Table, both of which have inverses:



Cryptographic Algorithm 1
PossibilityKeyPlaintextCiphertext
1000
4011
6101
7110




Cryptographic Algorithm 2
PossibilityKeyPlaintextCiphertext
2001
3010
5100
8111



Of course, the output of Algorithm 2 is merely the same as the output of Algorithm 1,
with 0s and 1s switched.  (This is called a logical NOT operation.)

Logic and Its Electronic Representation

Logic,  sometimes called

Boolean logic when it is dealing with 0s and 1s, has several elementary rules.  

In computers, TRUE is usually represented by a 1.  FALSE is represented by a 0.

Electrically a 1 is usually, but not always, represented by a HIGH VOLTAGE.  A zero by a 
LOW VOLTAGE.

The three basic operations in logic are NOT, AND, and OR:



Logical OperationInput(s)Output
NOT0 1
   1 0
      
AND000
   010
   100
   111
      
OR 000
   011
   101
   111


A derivative operation called an EXCLUSIVE-OR, abbreviated XOR, is defined as follows:



Logical OperationInput(s)Output
XOR000
   011
   101
   110


In XOR, if the two input bits have the the same value, they sum to 0.  If they have
different values, they sum to 1.

Now look back at Cryptographic Algorithm 1.  It is, in fact,
the exclusive-or (XOR) of the key and plaintext.


Algorithm 1: Ciphertext Output = Key XOR Plaintext.


Cryptographic Algorithm 2, meanwhile, is just the NOT of Algorithm 1.


Algorithm 2: Ciphertext Output = NOT (Key XOR Plaintext).


The REALLY IMPORTANT property of the XOR is THAT IT HAS AN INVERSE.

By contrast, logical AND does not have an inverse for the reason that if the
Key and (Key AND Plaintext) are both 0, then the Plaintext itself is ambiguously
either 0 or 1.



Logical OperationKey InputPlaintext InputKey AND Plaintext 
AND000oops
   010oops
   100 
   111 


Likewise, logical OR does not have an inverse for the reason that if the
Key and (Key OR Plaintext) are both 1, then the Plaintext itself is ambiguously
either 0 or 1.



Logical OperationKey InputPlaintext InputKey OR Plaintext 
OR 000 
   011 
   101oops
   111oops


So logical AND and OR don�t work well for a crypto algorithm, but the XOR does because it has 
an inverse.

How to Create Two Keys for Deniability

The XOR works even better from a legal standpoint.  Imagine the following
conversation:


        Ciphercop:  We have the ciphertext 0 and we CAUGHT you with the key with a bit value of 1, so you sent a plaintext 1.
        Citizen:  No I did not!  You PLANTED the key with bit value 1. The real key bit is a 0, and I sent 0 as the plaintext.


Let�s generate a key for the REAL WORLD crypto messages "black" and "white",
                  


messagecharacterASCII (Hex)Binary
Message 1black62 6C 61 63 6B0110 0010 0110 1100 0110 0001 0110 0011 0110 1011
Message 2white77 68 69 74 650111 0111 0110 1000 0110 1001 0111 0100 0110 0101


and see if we can produce a REAL EXAMPLE of a SECOND KEY.

Here�s a key, which we will call key 1:


key 1: 1010 0101   1100 0011   1110 0111   1111 0000   0110 1001


Key 1 doesn�t look too random.  Each group of four bits is followed by its
logical NOT (e.g. NOT(1010) = 0101, etc.).  Which leads to another lesson.


        To claim that a sequence of 0s and 1s is random requires statistical testing.
	Otherwise, the state of the sequence is UNKNOWN.
       

Here's another key, which we will call key 2:


key 2: 1011 0000    1100 0100   1110 1111   1110 0111   0110 0111


These two keys produce the same ciphertext for the two different
messages "black" and "white".



black0110 0010    0110 1100   0110 0001   0110 0011   0110 1011
key 11010 0101    1100 0011   1110 0111   1111 0000   0110 1001
ciphertext (XOR)1100 0111    1010 1100   1000 0110   1001 0011   0000 0010




white0111 0111    0110 1000   0110 1001   0111 0100   0110 0101
key 21011 0000    1100 0100   1110 1111   1110 0111   0110 0111
ciphertext (XOR)1100 0111    1010 1100   1000 0110   1001 0011   0000 0010


So when the ciphercops FALSELY accuse you of encrypting "black", you SCREAM
"Bull pucky!", and produce key 2 to show that you, IN FACT, encrypted "white".
Then sue the government--pro se, of course. (See http://jya.com/whpfiles.htm.)

The recipe for producing the second key in this example is simple.  Take two plaintext messages of the
same length.  Encrypt one of them with an arbitrary key that yields a ciphertext of the
same length.  XOR the ciphertext with the second plaintext message.  The result is the
second key.  Store this one for plausible deniability.

So from the standpoint of plausible deniability it is BEST to have TWO KEYS
for any given encryption:


        1. The REAL KEY  
        2. The key you can CLAIM was the REAL KEY.  Just in case you get caught.




"Have we gone beyond the bounds of reasonable dishonesty?"
                --CIA memo
                
          
(The CIA quote is from 
Weird History 101, by  John Richard Stephens, page 55.)

None of us want to get caught going beyond the bounds of reasonable dishonesty.

Thus far two criteria of a worth candidate for cryptographic algorithm have been established.



Criterion 1: The ciphertext is invertible with the help of a key back into the plaintext.
Criterion 2: There is ALWAYS a second key.  Just in case you get caught.


Plaintext and Ciphertext Sizes

The plaintext and ciphertext should be the same size.

First, note that if the plaintext is longer than the ciphertext, then the
ciphertext is not invertible.  For example, let�s suppose that the plaintext
is two bits long and the ciphertext is one bit long.



PlaintextCiphertext
0 00 or 1
0 11 or 0
1 0oops
1 1oops


After the first two ciphertext bits have been assigned to plaintext pairs,
the next two plaintext pairs (10,11) must conflict with this assignment. The
ciphertext thus correspondents to more than one plaintext possibility.

We run into problems for the reason that we cannot establish a one-to-one
correspondence between the plaintext and cipher text and, therefore, can�t
possibly have an inverse.

Second, if the plaintext is shorter than the ciphertext, then the
ciphertext can't be trusted.  It may include too much information.  For
example, let�s suppose that the plaintext is one bit long, the key is one
bit long, and the cipher text is two bits long.



Iran Cryptographic Algorithm
KeyPlaintextCiphertext
0  0        00        
0  1        10        
1  0        11        
1  1        01        


Not only is the above algorithm invertible, but now the crypto key has been sent
along with the ciphertext in the second bit position!

That is, the first bit in the ciphertext is is the value of (key XOR plaintext).
The second bit is the key itself.  So if you XOR the two ciphertext bits
with each other, you recover the plaintext bit.

You might ask who would be audacious enough to pull such  stunt.  The Great Satan,
of course.

For the story of how the National Security Agency (NSA) bugged the encryption
equipment that was sold by a Swiss company to 140 nations around the world, see
the following links:


http://www.aci.net/kalliste/speccoll.htm 


http://caq.com/cryptogate 


http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/crypto_ag.htm 


http://jya.com/whpfiles.htm



And the Great Satan got caught.  No plan B.  Or in crypto parlance, no second key.

So we have a third criterion for a cryptographic algorithm we might wish to adopt.



Criterion 3:  The length of the plaintext equals the length of the ciphertext.


In simple terms, if more bits come out of a crypto algorithm than go in, WATCH OUT!

Otis Mukinfuss and the Advanced Encryption Standard

Bruce Hawkinson (BHAWKIN at sandia.gov)
WAS Sandia National Laboratories Lab News editor some years ago.

In one editorial, Hawkinson wrote that while we was traveling for Sandia, he
spent his motel time looking up strange names in the phone book.  One name
I recall mentioned was Steely Gray who was a government office furniture
salesman.

Hawkinson concluded his article by writing his all-time favorite name was
Otis Mukinfuss.

Hawkinson was no longer editor of Sandia�s Lab News shortly thereafter.

J. Orlin Grabbe has done an excellent job writing about cryptographic algorithms in

Cryptography and Number Theory for Digital Cash.

One inescapable conclusion from Grabbe�s internet article is that from a layman�s
standpoint public key cryptography is an incomprehensible mess.  A Muckinfuss.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) is holding a CONTEST to select
an Advanced Encryption Standard to replace the
current Data Encryption Standard (DES).

Click through the candidates to view some additional examples of Mukinfusses.

So another criterion has been established for a cryptographic algorithm to be considered
for adoption.



Criterion 4:  The crypto algorithm must be simple and CONVINCE  EVERYONE that it is
             ONLY PERFORMING ITS SIMPLE INTENDED FUNCTION.


While we are at the NIST web site, the NIST Advanced Encryption Standard contest reminds
me of a the plot of a recent movie, The Game, starring Michael Douglas and Sean Penn:


        The film is a thriller directed by David Fincher (Se7en). "The Game"
        is what begins when a high-powered businessman named Nicholas Van 
        Orton (Douglas) receives the birthday gift of a lifetime from his 
        brother he alienated years ago (Penn). What Nicholas gets is entry 
        into a mysterious new form of entertainment provided by C.R.S. 
        (Consumer Recreational Services) simply called "The Game." It 
        proves to be an all-consuming contest with only one rule: there are 
        no rules. By the time Van Orton realizes he is in, it is too late to get 
        out.  ...
        (See 
                http://www.movietunes.com/soundtracks/1997/game/.)



NIST does not appear to publish any criteria for winning the AES contest!
Look at 
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/confpage/980820.htm and decide for
yourself.

Perfect Cryptography

Here we have described a process of encrypting a plaintext by XORing it
with a key of the same length.  This encryption technique is called a
"one-time pad", or Vernam cipher.  Just as long as each key is only used once,
the encryption technique is perfectly secure.

The one-time pad described here satisfies all criteria mentioned so far:


1. The ciphertext is invertible with the help of a key back into the plaintext.
2. There is ALWAYS a second key.  Just in case you get caught. 
3. The length of the plaintext equals the length of the ciphertext. 
4. The crypto algorithm must be simple and CONVINCE EVERYONE that it is 
    ONLY PERFORMING ITS SIMPLE INTENDED FUNCTION.


I  add



Criterion 5:  The length of the key must equal the length of the plaintext.


Extensive mathematics or complication fails Criterion 4.

Public key cryptograpy that uses the RSA algorithm MAY fail Criterion 1 if the 
message divides the product of the two prime numbers, p and q, used in the modulus.

Most crypto algorithms are designed so that the key cannot be recovered from a
plaintext-ciphertext pair.  Therefore, they fail Criterion 2.

Criterion 3 is much more difficult to ensure against.

Black and White Hats

American western movie producers used to aid their audiences in identification
of the heroes and villains.  The heroes wore white hats.  The villains, black hats.

US government agencies adopted the term �black hatter� to describe an employee whose
job it is to break into THINGS. Or screw them up:
http://www.jya.com/whp1.htm

A �white hatter� is one who analyzes THINGS to make sure they cannot be broken into.
And they can�t be screwed up.

But the empirical fact is that the �black hatters� can figure-out methods to transmit
the key on a covert channel, tell the �white hatters� they did this.  And the �white
hatters� can�t find out how they did it.
                 
Algorithmic Processes

Suppose the key is five bits:

 1 0 1 0 1

Suppose the plaintext is six bits:

1 1 1 1 1 1

And the ciphertext is also six bits:

1 0 1 1 0 1

Ask the cryptographer give you a key which changes ONLY the sixth bit of the
ciphertext, as in the following:

1 0 1 1 0 0

You like the other 5 bits just fine.

If the cryptographer can�t, then you might look for another algorithm to adopt.

Conclusion

We have five criteria to judge the outcome of the NIST Advanced Encryption Standard contest.

If none of the algorithms pass the five tests, we will not be discouraged.

We know that Gilbert S. Vernam and Joseph O. Mauborgne  solved the crytptography problem in 1918,
when they created the one-time pad.  (See

"What is a One-Time Pad?".)


William H. Payne               
P.O. Box 14838                 
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87191  
505-292-7037                   

Embedded Controller Forth. 

Generalized Feedback Shift Registers           

Here are some links to some of my students:

     
Ted Lewis (Friction-Free Economy)      
     
John Sobolewski (HPCERC)      

-30-






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep  9 17:11:43 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:11:43 +0800
Subject: CJ Key Check
Message-ID: <199809101303.JAA31885@camel8.mindspring.com>



Bear in mind that that information on this matter may be used to 
hammer or help Carl Johnson if not others.

As Adam Back has proposed: 

To check the validity of the allegations made by the IRS about 
Toto(s)'s messages in the Carl Johnson complaint, a review 
is underway of archived messages to see if there are any signatures 
by a key before the private key has been posted, especially if 
the post in question has been (or may be later) cited by the IRS.  

If there are none, then the IRS "authentication" of the claimed 
Toto posts evaporates.  Even if there are some, the `authentication' 
becomes more suspect if there are others which are made after the 
key post.

To assist checking messages an initial list of candidate keys is 
available (none of the anonymous keys show a link to Carl Johnson
of the IRS complaint):

   http://jya.com/anon-keys.htm

Additional candidates and findings of message checks are welcomed,
with a nod to the opening caution.








From declan at well.com  Wed Sep  9 17:26:30 1998
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:26:30 +0800
Subject: Netly News article on Toto/Johnson PART II
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980910062559.26606B-100000@well.com>




 http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/0,2326,201980910-14595,00.html









From CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com  Thu Sep 10 08:40:02 1998
From: CTIA_Daily_News at um2.unitymail.com (CTIA Daily News)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CTIA Daily News from WOW-COM - September 10, 1998
Message-ID: <199809101601.LAA02273@revnet3.revnet.com>




==========================================
Welcome to today's edition of the CTIA Daily News
from WOW-COM. Please click on the icon / attachment
for the most important news in wireless communications today.

The future of your company will be announced
October 12 @ Wireless I.T.� Will you be there?

CLICK HERE NOW TO SIGN UP AND SAVE
http://www.wirelessit.com/portal.htm 

Team WOW-COM
wowcom at ctia.org
===========================================
 



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From lists at ticm.com  Wed Sep  9 17:40:33 1998
From: lists at ticm.com (Technical Incursion Countermeasures)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:40:33 +0800
Subject: CFP: The Insider December 1998 edition
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910213019.009f3250@localhost>



Call for Papers

The Insider - December 1998 edition

The Insider (http://www.ticm.com/info/insider/index.html) has been in
publication since November 1997. Since then it has gone trough a number of
changes - all for the better :}. The latest change is to move from a
newletter containing just the musing of its editor to a "learned journal".
Yes, the papers will be refereed and the editorial board has some weight in
the IT security world.

On that note this is the first Call for papers.

We are looking for papers on Information Technology Security and fitting
within the following broad areas: Audit, Design and Maintenance of IT
Security.

The Papers can be from 1000 to 2500 words. We may accept papers of down to
600 words or up to 5000 words but they will have to be of the utmost quality. 

For more information see http://www.ticm.com/info/insider/current.html 

Yours 

Bret Watson - Editor
Technical Incursion Countermeasures 
consulting at TICM.COM                      http://www.ticm.com/
ph: (+61)(041) 4411 149(UTC+8 hrs)      fax: (+61)(08) 9454 6042

The Insider - a e'zine on Computer security - August Edition out
http://www.ticm.com/info/insider/index.html





From EpicTeU at aol.com  Wed Sep  9 17:41:57 1998
From: EpicTeU at aol.com (EpicTeU at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:41:57 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail....
Message-ID: <ac6b25e2.35f7d5c5@aol.com>



In a message dated 98-09-10 01:11:05 EDT, you write:

<< Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:27:05 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Jrjeffro at aol.com
 
 HaCkaZ OnlY Da EliTeHelLO YaLL DiS is Da MaDD AAOOLL HaCka Ima startin a
GreWp fOR HaCs Only So In OthA WerDS yA gOttA KnOw The WAreZ anD HoW toO UsEr
FaTe AnD AOL So MaIl Or Im Me FoR Da TeTaIls If YeR LeeTo K Pe at CE FrOmE The
LeeTs HacKJeFFrO) >>

What the hell is this? 
No wonder why AOLers have a bad name Im going to Flame this guy 





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  9 19:01:09 1998
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:01:09 +0800
Subject: computer implant in 1997
In-Reply-To: <v04011742b2099a3531ba@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980909144109.00c57ac0@idiom.com>



Nothing surprising about it - just implant your basic lost-pet ID chip,
and set up a detector to read it.  All commercially available except
perhaps the computer interface to the detector, which isn't
all that complex either.  The more interesting journalism question isn't 
the lack of archive-checking by the journalist or this year's
claimant to firstness, but what political spin the professor tried to push 
with his press release and interviews and whether it was accepted
blithely or skeptically.

>> > READING, England -- Professor Kevin Warwick claimed Tuesday to be the
>> > first person in the world to have a computer chip surgically implanted
>> > into his body.
>> [...]
>> > Warwick demonstrated the chip in action by walking through the front
>> > door of his department. "Good morning, Professor Warwick. You have five
>> > new emails," said a computerized voice activated by the inserted chip.
>> [...]
>
>Kac implanted a computer chip in his body last year [...]

>i wonder to what extent journalists fact-check these "firsts".
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  9 19:03:00 1998
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:03:00 +0800
Subject: Computer hard disc scanning by HM Customs & Excise
In-Reply-To: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A192845C6@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980909143613.00c51da0@idiom.com>



>> > Just set the BIOS not to boot to floppy, 
>> If the customs people have any clue, the first thing they do 
>> is hit DEL at the appropriate BIOS prompt
>I think you give them WAY too much credit, not to mention many systems
>give no such prompt. But highly suspect if anything they will check the
>BIOS *after* first not being able to boot to floppy successfully.

Any tax-collector who's illiterate enough to ask "Do you have Internet
on your computer" is probably not going to know what's happening,
especially given the disparity of system boot behaviour.

Some things may get their attention, like the sound card yelling
	"Begin destruct sequence!  10, 9, 8, 7....."
or, more politely, 
	"Stop, thief!  Help, someone is stealing this computer!"
or	"Virus detected.  Please remove the infected diskette
	and contact corporate security for further instructions"
but your basic subtleties like a Linux boot screen and 
copying the diskette to backup and then wiping it are 
beyond the typical border guard's technical training, and 
don't smell interesting enough to get his dog's attention 
(unless there's a good high-pitched tone as well.)

I may post a more thoughtful article about the offensiveness of this
practice or the technical cluelessness, but for now I'll just
rant about the sheer folly of allowing anybody to touch your computer 
whose primary training is in Shouting and looking for people who
match profiles, like Irish accents or obvious wealth or obvious poverty.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Sep  9 19:21:42 1998
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:21:42 +0800
Subject: Archives and such - I can host these...
Message-ID: <35F7EE0B.C3E97955@brainlink.com>



If the folks that run or ran archives need a mirror site to host their mirrors,
I can happily provide space for them on sundernet.  I've plenty of space on the
drive, and if not I can get more spindles for it...

If you have already written perl scripts to archive incoming mail I'd put those
up too... 

-- 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Wed Sep  9 19:29:15 1998
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:29:15 +0800
Subject: Spot The Fed
In-Reply-To: <199809100428.VAA17926@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <199809101544.IAA18377@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>



"Kevin J. Stephenson" <kevin.stephenson at pobox.com> wrote

> A lot of companies that get Net access never setup the reverse DNS entries
> out of sheer laziness on their assigned class C, and their upstream
> provider doesn't care. Feds probably have Class A and B addresses anyways.

Traceroute doesn't use DNS, it doesn't need to as it already has the 
IP numbers.  DNS is a system which provides IP numbers when you 
give it a domain name.  Reverse DNS provides a host name to an IP 
address but Traceroute doesn't use it.

Traceroute works at the router level.  Traceroute is like Ping but 
provides information on every hop including IP number and 
assigned device name.  With Traceroute if a host name is not 
received, when requested of course, it is because the equipment 
was not assigned a host name or it is deliberately suppressed.  I 
don't use Traceroute a lot but this is the first time I have seen host 
names suppressed.  

A lot of routers have ICM suppressed and will not provide a device 
name.  If an end user site wants to provide better security they will 
turn off ICM packets.  At that point Traceroute doesn't work at all.




Virtually

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca





From ulf at fitug.de  Wed Sep  9 19:38:51 1998
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:38:51 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks archive
In-Reply-To: <19980910100541.10897.qmail@iq.org>
Message-ID: <199809101539.RAA59090@public.uni-hamburg.de>



> I'm looking for a/the cypherpunks archive, particularly one that
> covers 92-present. infinity.nus.sg doesn't seem to work anymore.

I don't there is a complete archive on the web at the moment.

http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/listas/cypherpunks at infonex.com
has an archive for 1997 and 1998.





From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Sep  9 19:44:47 1998
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:44:47 +0800
Subject: oil, greens, recycling, and poly-ticks.
In-Reply-To: <199809092123.OAA17355@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <35F7F329.E4836699@brainlink.com>



Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:

> Now we have cheap oil.  Big powerful vehicles are back and we are
> not embarrassed to consume energy any more.  I have no idea
> where society is heading but I do like have a more powerful vehicle
> which capable of passing a vehicle already doing 65 MPH.

What pisses me off is that in NYC the gas prices are ridiculous high...
$1.35/Gal is the regular gas, drive just a few miles over a tunnel or bridge 
to n NJ, it's $1.00 or $.99 depending on which pump you hit...  go a bit south,
say VA, and in some areas it drops as low as $0.87 a gallon!

Shit, if it weren't for the tolls and the drive, I'd be getting my gas out of
NYC all the time, but doing so wastes enough and costs enough in tolls to not
make it worth the effort...

Just out of curiosity what are prices around where you guys live?
 
> The whole Greens or tree-hugger thing is a bit hypocritical.  Ask
> them if they have electrical appliances in their home and the answer
> is always yes.  For a number of years the Greenpeace fundraisers
> would show up at the door asking for money to battle the forest
> industry and the evil pulp mills which used chlorine in their bleaching
> process and they would have white paper in their clipboards.

Yep... saw one at Barnes & Noble a while ago bitching about how he got a
plastic bag.  We'll, if he's worried that plastic is bad for the environment,
he should worry about the murdered tree in his hand that he just purchased...

Ditto for militant vegans... it's one thing to do it for health reasons, it's
another to be an asshole about killing fuzzy animals.. hey veggies are alive
too.  If you're gonna murder veggies to live, (whose growth results in the
death of millions of insects who would devour the veggies if not for
insecticides) you may as well quit being a hypocrite and murder animals too...

The only way for a consciencious objecting vegan to not be a hypocrite is to
simply stop eating and drinking and breathing... after all, every time he does
so, he inhales, ingests, or otherwise murders billions of microbes... :)

(Whenever someone asks if I have special dietary needs, I say "I'm a carnivore,
make sure you've got plenty of red meat!") :)

By far the worst is the recycling law in NYC.  If you don't recycle your trash,
you get fined.  If a homeless bum sticks his hand in a recycling bin and grabs
a paper he gets arrested for theft of government property, etc...  If someone
throws a can of soda in your trash bins infront of your house, you pay a $50
fine...  A while back some may remeber the "Toilet Escrow" thread... yep that
too has hit New York.  Every toilet in our apt building was exchanged for one
that supposedly saves water... Whatever the political and economic kickbacks
were, it now takes an average of three flushes to sink a bowlful of turds... 
My math says that's a lot more wasted water than the single flush of the old
toilet.


-- 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 19:47:50 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:47:50 +0800
Subject: SSZ down (whatta story!)...
Message-ID: <199809092353.SAA17964@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Sorry for the downtime but a big (40ft.) tree fell and took out the phone
lines, nearly squished one of my dogs, and had the power lines under some
considerable tension.

If you're receiving this then everything should be back up and operating
normaly. No further downtime is expected.

Now back to your normal bat channel...


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 19:49:16 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:49:16 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809100116.UAA18005@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:29:14 -0500
> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)

> 	There are lots of things you can make alcohol out of. Seaweed, etc.

True, but the amount of land needed to replace the oil reserves is a tad
excessive...

> for importation into the US.

Why? It's in their best interest to use the product in their own country.

> 	And what would you need to add to it to "color" the flame?

Indy racers  add various things to make it burn (usualy a orange) but I
don't have any references at hand and don't remember. Sorry I can't answer
that one specificaly.

> 	Put about 2% detergent (just about any grade will do) into that
> "water spray", and the fire goes out quicker, and stays out longer.

That'll work for gasoline because soap and gasoline are soluble. I doubt it
would work very well for alcohol but once I get this mess with the tree
straightened out I'll do a little backyard experiment.

What I had in mind was to pour some alcohol on the concrete drive way and
light it. Then use a waterbottle with a water/soap mix. Do you think that
would be a suitable simulation?

> 	There are plenty of unused roof tops here in Chicago bouncing free
> energy off into the air.

Yep, use the roof of every 10+ houses to power a single house...

> 	Again, there are a lot of tall buildings here where the wind is
> constantly moving. Also, we have this large, flat, relatively undeveloped
> area just to the east of chicago where the wind is constantly at least 10
> m.p.h. (from (admittedly imperfect memory) 7 m.p.h. is necessary to run an
> electric generator from a windmill) and where no one lives.

Ok, so you have acres and acres of power turbines on towers around Chicago,
where does Chicago move to? What about the rest of the country? The issue
after all is what happens when a renewable *replacement* for oil based fuels
is found? This is a much more global issue than Chicago. Besides putting a
wind generator on a building wouldn't even power the building.

> 	It's called Lake Michigan.

Ok, something got lost here...

> 	No, but it is PART of the solution.

Actualy it's not, if anything the pollution of mining, production, byproducts
of use such as acid rain, and some I've probably left out are only an
extension of the problem. The ignorance of long term costs of disposal and
ecological impact is one of my personal pet peeves with traditional economic
theory and why I pretty much think it's a pile of shit and economist in
general are idiots.

> 	Again, PART of the solution.

Ok, so we let PART of the people starve and die in the dark.

> 	The waste problem goes away of you build a decently stable launch
> platform and drop the shit into the sun.

We don't have engines at this point that can do that. The fact is that it
takes more energy to get to the sun than it does to leave the solar system.
Nope, not the answer. (I do experimental, ie big bird, rockets for grins and
giggles)

> "power sats" into orbit (altho I am not real clear on how the energy gets
> back down, something about using microwaves <shrug>)

Microwaves, and god help you if you happen to fly through one. I won't even
talk about the costs of development, control, maintenance, etc. This won't
fly any time in the next couple of hundred years at least. What about the
heating of the water in the air, can you say global warming on a scale that
would make the current issues irrelevant.

> 	Also, you ignored, or didn't see the "mix of" statement. Oil CAN be
> replaced, and should be. There are plenty of ways to replace the energy

Absolutely, I want to replace it. I want to replace it with something that
is renewable, won't have the ecological impact of the others, won't squeeze
the small countries out, etc. If it requires killing a single salamander
then it's the wrong choice simply to make a profit.

> for clean air as much as the next guy, and I guess trees are kinda nice to
> look at, but I'd like to see far more diversity in energy sources, and
> investigation into more long term, renewable sources.

I love trees.

The problem is that there aren't that many renewable resources that won't
break the bank or create a have/have-not situation that would be rife with
conflict potential.

> 	Actually it looks like something that could be made in a factory.
> Take a methane source (sewage, rotting plant matter) pump it into really
> cold water under pressure, and blam.

You need pressure as well. But yes, this is a possibility as well. I
haven't seen the energy costs on this approach. The largest producers of
methane on the planet are cows. Perhaps we should shove a hose up the hinney
of all the cows...:)

> 	Depends on what you want it to replace. The one of the largest uses
> of oil is in the transportation sector, and "they" have been pushing
> Natural Gas there for years to little effect.

Absolutely, there is a hurdle to jump. One of the main issues with the
traditional natural gas deposits are that they are expensive because of the
drilling requirements, non-renewable, and not evenly distributed to
potential users. Something deep-ocean clathrates and potentialy your
industrial process idea don't have.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 19:49:20 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:49:20 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809100135.UAA00119@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:58:16 -0500
> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism

> >Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
> >there?
> 
> 	Point is, the "Arabs" didn't start it, the UN/European leaders (US,
> UK, FR, and RU) did.

Actualy the tension between followers of Allah and Yahwe split long before
us poor westerners were doing much more than getting naked, painting
oursleves blue, and stabing each other with bronze and iron rods.

While it is true the modern political scene has exacerbated the situation,
it is untrue that it was the causation.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Wed Sep  9 19:55:55 1998
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:55:55 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
Message-ID: <ba4f5c5deca6dd048c063992abf424a4@anonymous>



"Brian W. Buchanan" <brian at smarter.than.nu> writes:

>I'd love to see them try to enforce that.  What about chaffing and
>winnowing?  Stego?  Transmission of random noise? ;)  Anyone have the text
>of the actual rules concerning this?

I found what you're looking for.  I failed in my search at the FCC and ARRL web-sites, except for offers to purchase the applicable regulations in hardcopy.

C.F.R. 47, Part 97 covers the Amateur Radio Service.  The full set of regs is available at:

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/simons/al/radio/part97.html

The specific regulation you're looking for is at: 

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/simons/al/radio/part97_b.html#97.113

S 97.113 Prohibited transmissions. 

(a) No amateur station shall transmit: 

...
        (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically

            provided elsewhere in this Section; communications

            intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^
            codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            thereof, except as otherwise provided herein;
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            obscene or indecent words or language; or false

            or deceptive messages, signals or identification; 

...

The exception clause probably makes reference to an allowed "code", that being morse code.






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Wed Sep  9 19:57:40 1998
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:57:40 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809090755430.270-100000@smarter.than.nu>
Message-ID: <3859418bc3deb43600e8455d83581c55@anonymous>



>>>>> Brian W Buchanan <brian at smarter.than.nu> writes:

  > I'd love to see them try to enforce that... Anyone have
  > the text of the actual rules concerning this?

This is enforced very strictly, with the diligent help of the amateur
radio community itself.

CFR47 says:

97.113 Prohibited transmissions. 

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

  (1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;

  (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
  indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these
  rules;

  (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator
  has a pecuniary interest...

  (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided
  elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a
  criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the
  meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or
  indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals
  or identification;

  (5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
  furnished alternatively through other radio services.

(b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting...

[...]

97.117 International communications. Transmissions to a different
country, where permitted, shall be made in plain language and shall be
limited to messages of a technical nature relating to tests, and, to
remarks of a personal character for which, by reason of their
unimportance, recourse to the public telecommunications service is not
justified.





From Marita.Nasman-Repo at DataFellows.com  Thu Sep 10 11:05:18 1998
From: Marita.Nasman-Repo at DataFellows.com (Marita =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=E4sman=2DRepo?=)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:05:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PRESS RELEASE: Data Fellows Introduces F-Secure NameSurfer Version 2.0
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980910174328.009258c0@smtp.datafellows.com>


For your information:

#######################################################

Data Fellows Introduces F-Secure NameSurfer Version 2.0   

SAN JOSE, CA -- Data Fellows, the global leader in Internet security
solutions, has today announced the new version 2.0 of its F-Secure
NameSurfer DNS (Domain Name System) management tool. 

DNS translates host names to IP addresses and is a critical component of
any IP based network. F-Secure NameSurfer provides network managers an
easy- to-use Web interface for DNS administration, saving time and
maintenance resources. Its intuitive graphical user interface and automatic
error checking prevent network managers from generating faulty DNS data.
Faulty DNS data can bring down the entire IP network, so correctness of DNS
data is essential for reliable and secure Internet and intranets. 

F-Secure NameSurfer 2.0 has been extensively restructured to achieve
peerless performance in the markets, especially in large DNS installations.
The new version also makes it possible to prevent the network manager from
creating address records whose IP address falls outside his own network.
Thus, ISPs can give their customers the permission to change addresses and
still be sure that customers stay in their own network zone. 

F-Secure NameSurfer translates into significant savings in network
management. The intuitive graphical user interface saves network managers'
time in doing DNS configurations. The configurations can be done remotely
and by multiple network managers with personal administration rights. The
routine tasks can be delegated to clerical staff. Ultimately even end-users
or ISP customers can administer their own DNS data, with a Web browser, as
a self-service. 

Prime target customer groups for F-Secure NameSurfer are telecommunication
operators, Internet Service Providers (ISP), and other organizations that
need the best tool in the markets to manage Internet or intranet security.
Among F-Secure NameSurfer customers are ISPs like US WEST INTERACT,
Concentric Network Corporation, and The Finnish University and Research
Network, as well as international corporate customers such as Barclays Bank
PLC, Motorola Semiconductor Product Services, and UPM-Kymmene.

F-Secure NameSurfer 2.0 is now available from Data Fellows' resellers
around the world. The product is available for all the popular Unix
platforms. Pricing starts at $990.

With offices in San Jose, CA, and Helsinki, Finland, privately-owned Data
Fellows is the leading technology provider of data security solutions for
computer networks and desktop computers. The company's F-Secure data
security product line includes the groundbreaking F-Secure Anti-Virus,
which facilitates two of the world's best scanning engines, F-PROT
Professional and AVP, within the same system for unparalleled virus
detection rates; F-Secure SSH for securing all popular TCP/IP applications;
and F-Secure VPN for creating secure virtual private networks. The
company's products are relied on by many of the world's largest companies,
governments, universities and institutions. The products are available
world-wide in more than 80 countries through Data Fellows and its business
partners. 

For more information, please contact 

USA: 

Data Fellows Inc.
Mr. Pirkka Palomaki, Product Manager
Tel. +1 408 938 6700 
Fax +1 408 938 6701
E-mail: Pirkka.Palomaki at DataFellows.com 

Europe: 

Data Fellows Oy
Mr. Petri Nyman, Director of Sales
PL 24
FIN-02231 ESPOO 
Tel. +358 9 859 900
Fax +358 9 8599 0599
E-mail: Petri.Nyman at DataFellows.com 
All media inquiries: Open City Communications, 212-714-3575 or
Opencity at aol.com

###########################################################

Kind regards

Marita Nasman-Repo
Communicator, Media Relations



--
marita.nasman-repo at DataFellows.com, 
World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Sep  9 20:20:58 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:20:58 +0800
Subject: radio net (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A19284623@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>
Message-ID: <35F7FCC0.30D4@lsil.com>



Matthew James Gering wrote:
> 
> Isn't there a similar ban on encryption-capable telephones and other
> electronic devices (other than computers).
> 
Not that I've ever heard of. Besides, what's the difference between a
crypto telephone and a computer? None that is significant.

>         Matt

I suspect that the reason that there aren't any $99 cryptophones at
Wal-Mart is that there really is not a significant market. The average
person just doesn't care. And the consumer electronics business is so
competitive and cost-sensitive that adding cost as a matter of principle
is just not going to happen. Oh, I suppose it's possible that anyone
trying to introduce a product like this could run into LEA interference
- endless audits, supplier problems, FCC approvals, you name it but lack
of market is probably the simplest explanation.

Mike





From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Sep  9 20:24:12 1998
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:24:12 +0800
Subject: Spot The Fed / ICMP, UDP, and traceroute
In-Reply-To: <199809100428.VAA17926@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <35F7FC76.44C31F86@brainlink.com>



Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:

> Traceroute doesn't use DNS, it doesn't need to as it already has the
> IP numbers.  DNS is a system which provides IP numbers when you
> give it a domain name.  Reverse DNS provides a host name to an IP
> address but Traceroute doesn't use it.
> 
> Traceroute works at the router level.  Traceroute is like Ping but
> provides information on every hop including IP number and
> assigned device name.  With Traceroute if a host name is not
> received, when requested of course, it is because the equipment
> was not assigned a host name or it is deliberately suppressed.  I
> don't use Traceroute a lot but this is the first time I have seen host
> names suppressed.
> 
> A lot of routers have ICM suppressed and will not provide a device
> name.  If an end user site wants to provide better security they will
> turn off ICM packets.  At that point Traceroute doesn't work at all.

Not quite true.  traceroute does use DNS.  If you do traceroute www.joe.com
it will use dns to resolve it to an ip.  If you do traceroute 10.0.0.1, it
will use dns to resolve it to a name.   At every hop, it will use reverse
DNS to resolve the ip's to names.  If a hop doesn't have a reverse, you see
it's ip.

Traceroute under unix uses UDP on some high random port.  Traceroute on NT
(TRACERT.EXE) uses ICMP.  In both cases, it sets the TTL field to 1, and sends
a message.  The router dropping the message responds with ICMP telling your
host, "packet dropped due to ttl" -- this returns that router's ip address to
you.   (For non TCP heads - each packet has a TTL - time to live field that
gets decreased as the packet "hops" across a router.  When the TTL reaches
zero, the next router to receive it drops it and returns an error to the
sender.  This mechanism is used to prevent router loops from brining down all
the networks in the loop among other things like tracing a route...)

One can hide routers by making them ignore ICMP or not respond to ICMP.  In
such cases, you simply get time outs (a line with 3 *'s)...

A good test is to use traceroute from NT/95 and another from unix so you can
tell what's filtered.

-- 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Wed Sep  9 20:35:00 1998
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:35:00 +0800
Subject: oil, greens, recycling, and poly-ticks.
In-Reply-To: <35F7F329.E4836699@brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199809101649.JAA18487@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>



Ray Arachelian <sunder at brainlink.com> wrote

> Just out of curiosity what are prices around where you guys live?

In the Vancouver BC area they are trying to raise the price and the 
new standard is CAN$0.549 per litre, or US$1.37 per US gallon.  
Not difficult to find CAN$0.454/l or US$1.14/g.  For the last few 
weeks you could find CAN$0.399/l or US$1.00/g.  I often go to 
Blaine WA and the lowest available there is US$1.059.  Gas in 
Seattle WA is at least US$1.199.

> Ditto for militant vegans... it's one thing to do it for health reasons, it's
> another to be an asshole about killing fuzzy animals.. hey veggies are alive
> too.  If you're gonna murder veggies to live, (whose growth results in the
> death of millions of insects who would devour the veggies if not for
> insecticides) you may as well quit being a hypocrite and murder animals too...
> 
> The only way for a consciencious objecting vegan to not be a hypocrite is to
> simply stop eating and drinking and breathing... after all, every time he does
> so, he inhales, ingests, or otherwise murders billions of microbes... :)

Have you ever tried using this argument on a Vegetarian?  I have 
and they squirm in all directions attempting to rationalize their 
irrational position.  Basically some living things are more living than 
others.  Sort of reminds you of some politicians where it is obvious 
from their actions that some people are more equal than other 
people.





Virtually

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Sep  9 20:38:31 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:38:31 +0800
Subject: oil, Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809082359.SAA12044@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <35F8010C.35E5@lsil.com>



Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:
> > oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.
> 
Can't wait.

> Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
> renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves
> become smaller?
> 
> Maybe they want to sell it all before it becomes obsolete and
> maximize their income from that resource.
> 
> Within the oil business I have heard this mentioned in regards to
> natural gas.
> 
I remember going to hear a Cornell geophysicist speak on this subject
about 17 years ago. The gist of his talk was that the porosity of the
mantle material had some unexpected variation vs. depth. This, along
with the nature of the natural gas fields in Louisiana and the content
profile of some oil reserves indicated a large amount of natural gas
reserves as part of the deeper structure. I don't know where this ever
went but it was pretty interesting at the time.

Mike





From stuffed at stuffed.net  Thu Sep 10 11:44:51 1998
From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED NEWS DAILY)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:44:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: NEW MEGA FAST INTERFACE FROM TODAY + 30 HOT JPEGS AT LIGHTNING DOWNLOAD SPEED
Message-ID: <19980910164827.12223.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com>


In today's super-fast, totally revamped Stuffed
you'll find there's much more than ever before!

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NET SEX THERAPY ...... DRIVE THROUGH WHOREHOUSE
TOO CHEAP FOR SEX . SUPERMARKET SKIRT SNATCHING
FILMS TO FUCK BY ...................... SEX BED
TRUCK ME BABY .. TALKING DICK SPEAKS PORTUGUESE
BVD BANDIT BUSTED ................ LEO_S LIZARD
FRANTIC PHALLIC FRESCOS .......... PLONKER BOMB
BEST OF EUREKA ............... MUCH, MUCH MORE!

       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/10/   <----

Welcome to  today's  issue of Stuffed. To read it you should
click on the URL above.  If it is not made clickable by your
email program  you will need to  use your mouse to highlight
the URL,  copy it and then paste it into your browser  (then
press Return).

This  email  is  never  sent  unsolicited.  Stuffed  is  the
supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full
instructions on unsubscribing  are in every issue of Eureka!

       ---->   http://stuffed.net/98/9/10/   <----





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Sep  9 20:51:25 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:51:25 +0800
Subject: Computer hard disc scanning by HM Customs & Excise
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980909143613.00c51da0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <35F80407.5303@lsil.com>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >> > Just set the BIOS not to boot to floppy,
> >> If the customs people have any clue, the first thing they do
> >> is hit DEL at the appropriate BIOS prompt
> >I think you give them WAY too much credit, not to mention many systems
> >give no such prompt. But highly suspect if anything they will check the
> >BIOS *after* first not being able to boot to floppy successfully.
> 
> Any tax-collector who's illiterate enough to ask "Do you have Internet
> on your computer" is probably not going to know what's happening,
> especially given the disparity of system boot behaviour.
> 
> Some things may get their attention, like the sound card yelling
>         "Begin destruct sequence!  10, 9, 8, 7....."
> or, more politely,
>         "Stop, thief!  Help, someone is stealing this computer!"
> or      "Virus detected.  Please remove the infected diskette
>         and contact corporate security for further instructions"
> but your basic subtleties like a Linux boot screen and
> copying the diskette to backup and then wiping it are
> beyond the typical border guard's technical training, and
> don't smell interesting enough to get his dog's attention
> (unless there's a good high-pitched tone as well.)
> 
> I may post a more thoughtful article about the offensiveness of this
> practice or the technical cluelessness, but for now I'll just
> rant about the sheer folly of allowing anybody to touch your computer
> whose primary training is in Shouting and looking for people who
> match profiles, like Irish accents or obvious wealth or obvious poverty.
> 
The practice is as offensive as the KGB-like DWI roadblocks but don't be
so hasty to assume the long-term incompetence of the federales in any
country. If the interest in scanning PC's persists, or *dammit*
increases, there will be increased funding and somebody who is
technically capable will provide more sophisticated analysis tools.
Period. Better get used to it. I doubt the issue will just go away.
Design your CM accordingly.

Mike





From petro at playboy.com  Wed Sep  9 20:53:44 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:53:44 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809100116.UAA18005@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0311070bb21dafd16ba2@[206.189.103.244]>



At 8:15 PM -0500 9/9/98, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>> 	Put about 2% detergent (just about any grade will do) into that
>> "water spray", and the fire goes out quicker, and stays out longer.
>
>That'll work for gasoline because soap and gasoline are soluble. I doubt it
>would work very well for alcohol but once I get this mess with the tree
>straightened out I'll do a little backyard experiment.
>
>What I had in mind was to pour some alcohol on the concrete drive way and
>light it. Then use a waterbottle with a water/soap mix. Do you think that
>would be a suitable simulation?

	No.

	I know just a bit about Fuel Fires as I worked in Aircraft
Firefighting  and Resuce for Uncle Sams Miserable Children in the last 1/2
of the 80's.

	The point of using the detergent has nothing to do with it's
solubility in gasoline/kerosene (I have much more experience with JP5 than
gas, and JP5 is basically a high grade kerosene/diesel), but rather it is
there to break up the water tension & allow the water to "float" on top of
the gas/oil/whatever. It also improves (somewhat) the "wetting" properties
of water, allowing it to saturate porus material (wood, newspaper rolls
whatever) better.

>> 	There are plenty of unused roof tops here in Chicago bouncing free
>> energy off into the air.
>Yep, use the roof of every 10+ houses to power a single house...

	Actually, by using solar heating/cooling techiques instead of
(ineffecient) conversion to electicity, you can save MUCH more energy.

>Ok, so we let PART of the people starve and die in the dark.

	And the problem here is...

>> 	The waste problem goes away of you build a decently stable launch
>> platform and drop the shit into the sun.
>
>We don't have engines at this point that can do that. The fact is that it
>takes more energy to get to the sun than it does to leave the solar system.
>Nope, not the answer. (I do experimental, ie big bird, rockets for grins and
>giggles)

	I don't see how, you just get it up there inside the orbit of the
earth, and let gravity do the rest.

>> "power sats" into orbit (altho I am not real clear on how the energy gets
>> back down, something about using microwaves <shrug>)
>
>Microwaves, and god help you if you happen to fly through one. I won't even
>talk about the costs of development, control, maintenance, etc. This won't
>fly any time in the next couple of hundred years at least. What about the
>heating of the water in the air, can you say global warming on a scale that
>would make the current issues irrelevant.

	Like I said, I wasn't too sure on the last one.

>> 	Also, you ignored, or didn't see the "mix of" statement. Oil CAN be
>> replaced, and should be. There are plenty of ways to replace the energy
>
>Absolutely, I want to replace it. I want to replace it with something that
>is renewable, won't have the ecological impact of the others, won't squeeze
>the small countries out, etc. If it requires killing a single salamander
>then it's the wrong choice simply to make a profit.

	I don't mind killing a salamander or 100, but I don't want my
electric supply, and it's attendant costs to be dependent on ONE
technology, or source of supply.

>> for clean air as much as the next guy, and I guess trees are kinda nice to
>> look at, but I'd like to see far more diversity in energy sources, and
>> investigation into more long term, renewable sources.
>I love trees.

	I like desks, decks, houses, tables, chairs, etc.

	Oh, and altho it's not the most Green solution, we heated my
parents last home (3000 sq. feet in central Missouri) entirely with wood
for 5 or 6 years. Took about 2 cords per year IIRC. Not for everyone tho'.

>The problem is that there aren't that many renewable resources that won't
>break the bank or create a have/have-not situation that would be rife with
>conflict potential.

	We already have the have/have not situatiuon.

>> 	Actually it looks like something that could be made in a factory.
>> Take a methane source (sewage, rotting plant matter) pump it into really
>> cold water under pressure, and blam.
>
>You need pressure as well. But yes, this is a possibility as well. I

	I said "cold water under pressure".

>haven't seen the energy costs on this approach. The largest producers of
>methane on the planet are cows. Perhaps we should shove a hose up the hinney
>of all the cows...:)

	Factory farms, just add some sort of methane collector.

>> 	Depends on what you want it to replace. The one of the largest uses
>> of oil is in the transportation sector, and "they" have been pushing
>> Natural Gas there for years to little effect.
>
>Absolutely, there is a hurdle to jump. One of the main issues with the
>traditional natural gas deposits are that they are expensive because of the
>drilling requirements, non-renewable, and not evenly distributed to
>potential users. Something deep-ocean clathrates and potentialy your
>industrial process idea don't have.

	I think there is also this issue that NG doesn't "burn" when the
tank cracks, it "explodes", and when it does burn, it is very similar to
alcohol in that it doesn't have much of a flame.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From oshako at everest.u-grenoble3.fr  Wed Sep  9 21:15:00 1998
From: oshako at everest.u-grenoble3.fr (OSCAR)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:15:00 +0800
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809101715.TAA14312@everest.u-grenoble3.fr>

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From oshako at everest.u-grenoble3.fr  Wed Sep  9 21:15:26 1998
From: oshako at everest.u-grenoble3.fr (OSCAR)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:15:26 +0800
Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
Message-ID: <199809101715.TAA14309@everest.u-grenoble3.fr>

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From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Sep  9 21:20:55 1998
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:20:55 +0800
Subject: oil, greens, recycling, and poly-ticks.
In-Reply-To: <199809101649.JAA18487@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <35F809C4.4ED03ABC@brainlink.com>



Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:

> In the Vancouver BC area they are trying to raise the price and the
> new standard is CAN$0.549 per litre, or US$1.37 per US gallon.
> Not difficult to find CAN$0.454/l or US$1.14/g.  For the last few
> weeks you could find CAN$0.399/l or US$1.00/g.  I often go to
> Blaine WA and the lowest available there is US$1.059.  Gas in
> Seattle WA is at least US$1.199.

Bastards!
 
> Have you ever tried using this argument on a Vegetarian?  I have
> and they squirm in all directions attempting to rationalize their
> irrational position.  Basically some living things are more living than
> others.  Sort of reminds you of some politicians where it is obvious
> from their actions that some people are more equal than other
> people.

Yep, and they can't figgure out what to say, so they just cop out saying it's
healthier.  :)

-- 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 21:28:04 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:28:04 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809101750.MAA04560@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:46:40 -0500
> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)

> >That'll work for gasoline because soap and gasoline are soluble. I doubt it
> >would work very well for alcohol but once I get this mess with the tree
> >straightened out I'll do a little backyard experiment.
> >
> >What I had in mind was to pour some alcohol on the concrete drive way and
> >light it. Then use a waterbottle with a water/soap mix. Do you think that
> >would be a suitable simulation?
> 
> 	No.

Ok, then what would be a suitable test in your view?

It seems to me that after reviewing your comments this would be sufficient.
We have a small pool of fuel that is on fire, we spray water on it and
monitor the behaviour. We then create another similar pool and spary water
w/ detergent in it and note any differences.

> 	The point of using the detergent has nothing to do with it's
> solubility in gasoline/kerosene (I have much more experience with JP5 than
> gas, and JP5 is basically a high grade kerosene/diesel), but rather it is
> there to break up the water tension & allow the water to "float" on top of
> the gas/oil/whatever.

Actualy it's to keep the water from forming 'beads' because of differences
in density. The surface tension of water is much higher than most fuels so
if you put a little water in a lot of fuel you don't want it to bead. This
is analogouse to why you put your injector cleaner in *before* the gas so
that the difference in density won't effect the thoroughness of the mixing.
You can do the same sort of thing at home with cooking oil, water, and
detergent.

As to water floating on top of gasoline, it won't for any lentgh of time
greater than a fraction of a second, detergent or no detergent.

> 	Actually, by using solar heating/cooling techiques instead of
> (ineffecient) conversion to electicity, you can save MUCH more energy.

I have several friends who are as fanatical about this technology as you
seem to be. I find it interesting that in 20 years of playing with it they
are still in the red.

The proof is in the pudding.

> 	I don't see how, you just get it up there inside the orbit of the
> earth, and let gravity do the rest.

If it was ONLY that simple. When you leave the Earth you have the Earths
orbital momental (and it is considerable). I'll refer you to:

Classical Mechanics (2nd ed)
HC Corben, P. Stehle
ISBN 0-486-68063-0 (Dover)
$10.95

Introduction to Space Dynamics
WT Thomson
ISBN 0-486-65113-4 (Dover)
$8.00

Because I'm way to lazy today to want to delve in to triple-integrals and
such.

> 	I don't mind killing a salamander or 100, but I don't want my
> electric supply, and it's attendant costs to be dependent on ONE
> technology, or source of supply.

If there is any alternative that will fulfill the requirements and doesn't
require the arbitrary collateral damage then it isn't worth it, period. If
for no other reason than the ethical responsibility to pass on the world as
undamaged as possible to the next generation. (another oversite in current
economic thought that I find makes it unusable)

> 	We already have the have/have not situatiuon.

True, but only because the current energy sources are located in specific
geographic areas.

> 	I think there is also this issue that NG doesn't "burn" when the
> tank cracks, it "explodes", and when it does burn, it is very similar to
> alcohol in that it doesn't have much of a flame.

Actualy natural gas isn't any more flamable than gasoline or alcohol. What
makes it safer is the gas diffuses in the air much faster than either
alcohol or gasoline. In fact, in an accident I'd rather have a gas involved
than a liquid because of this. I've seen several natural gas fires and they
burn a yellow-orange (course they could be putting something in there
besides the odorant to cause this).


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 21:35:42 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:35:42 +0800
Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809101757.MAA04638@einstein.ssz.com>



First, let me say (again) to everyone ....

Quit sending these responses to my private email. If you want to discuss it
keep it on the list. Any further such private submissions go into /dev/null
unread. This also means you don't need to cc: if you send it to the cpunks
list since I'm subscribed...;)

Now, back to more intersting discussion...

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:26:47 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Jim Burnes <jvb at ssds.com>
> Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness)

> Apparently hemp hurd gassification yields a fairly sizeable, renewable
> amount of energy per acre.  Lemme see if I have the reference....

> Historically Hemp (Cannabis Sativa L.) has been a very high yielding plant
> (Haney 1975).  Assuming that hemp produces up to 4 tons/acre seed plus 10
> tons/acre stalks, Table 1 shows how many gallons of liquid fuel import could be
> saved by each of the following proven biomass fuel conversion routes.
> 
>        Table 1. Conversion technologies for hemp stalks and hemp oil
> 
> CONVERSION                                           CONVERSION GASOLINE EQUIV
> TECHNOLOGY                                             EFF - %    GAL/ACRE
> 
> 1  Ethanol from fermentation of hydrolyzed cellulose    20      200
> 2  Digestion of whole stalks to methane                 50      500
> 3  Producer gas from thermal gasification of stalks     85      1000
> 4  Methanol from syngas from gasification of stalks     65      750
> 5  Methanol from pyrolysis of stalks                    3       30
> 
> OIL SEEDS - 4 tons/acre
> 
> 6  Hemp Seed oil from Seeds, no conversion              100     300
> 7  Biobioesel premium diesel fuel from hemp seed        90      270
>     oil combined chemically with methanol

You're going to seriously claim that 1 gallon of hemp oil is equivalent to 3
gallons of gasoline? I don't think so. I've seen hemp burn and it don't burn
anywhere near that efficiently.

I also notice it doesn't mention what it costs to raise that 4 tons/acre...


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 21:48:18 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:48:18 +0800
Subject: Model Airplane Bio-weapon Sniffers [CNN]
Message-ID: <199809101810.NAA04843@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> X-within-URL: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9809/09/science.weapons.reut/

>                 "TOY PLANES" COULD SNIFF OUT BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS

>    LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. defense scientists have developed small
>    radio-controlled planes capable of "sniffing out" the presence of
>    biological weapons, a British magazine reported on Wednesday.
>    
>    New Scientist said the aircraft, described by one of their developers
>    as "like little toy planes," are designed to fly low into danger zones
>    looking for up to four suspected types of bacteria.
>    
>    As they patrol, air is forced into an on-board sampling chamber,
>    creating a vortex in a pool of water, the magazine said.
>    
>    Every five minutes, water from this chamber is pumped over a sensor
>    consisting of four optical fibres, each of which has a probe fixed to
>    its core.
>    
>    Each probe is coated with an antibody to which the spores of a
>    particular bacterium will bind if present in the water.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sorens at workmail.com  Wed Sep  9 22:04:16 1998
From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:04:16 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)]
Message-ID: <35F81543.365F22DD@workmail.com>

Sorry Jim,  slip of the wrist.

Hydroelectric turbines generate electric power. Feed this into the power
grid; well, maybe until the end of next year.  Maybe after 2000 we'll
see the un-nationalization of the national power grid.  Bay of Fundy is
>50 (?) square miles and tidal range is 25feet, one of the largest in
the world.

There have been discussions in the past to do likewise to the Bering
strait also.  Sorry about that whales.






To: sorens at workmail.com (Soren)
Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
From: Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:01:39 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <35F7FF53.E57503AE at workmail.com> from "Soren" at Sep 10, 98 12:33:23 pm


Hi Soren,

Let's keep it on the list please...

> What about tidal hydro?  Bay of Fundy would be appropriate.

Figure the volume of the Bay from low tide and the highest tide. Then figure
the time needed to fill. From this you can calculate the maximum amount of
energy available.

If you live near the Bay I suppose it would work, won't help the folks 50
miles away though...

The goal is to find a renewable, generaly available source of energy so that
geographic proximity is irrelevant.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From petro at playboy.com  Wed Sep  9 22:20:12 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:20:12 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809101750.MAA04560@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0311070eb21dc3620425@[206.189.103.244]>



At 12:50 PM -0500 9/10/98, Jim Choate wrote:
>> 	No.
>
>Ok, then what would be a suitable test in your view?
>
>It seems to me that after reviewing your comments this would be sufficient.
>We have a small pool of fuel that is on fire, we spray water on it and
>monitor the behaviour. We then create another similar pool and spary water
>w/ detergent in it and note any differences.

	Well, we used to dump 1000-3000 gallons of waste fuels into a pit,
but I'd guess a decent size bucket or tray would work.

	We had a smaller pit about 5x3 feet.

	I'd also suggest using a water extinguisher, the kind you can
refill/recharge yourself. There are some out there, the big silver kind
where you can unscrew the top and fill with your liquid of choice, then
presurize with  a tire pump. As an aside, one _could_ fill these with a
combination of gasoline and a gelling agent to make a short range flame
thrower, not that that would be a smart or safe thing to do (really, there
wouldn't be much to keep the flame from wandering back up inside the
cylinder, and haveing it explode in your hands would make it very hard to
type...).

	Also, I know from experience it IS possible to put out a gasoline
fire with straight water. You dump enough on, and it cools the liquid down
to the point where combustion is not possible.

	It can take a bit of doing, but in the case of a car or light
truck, we are talking no more than 10 or 20 gallons of fuel, tops.

>> 	The point of using the detergent has nothing to do with it's
>> solubility in gasoline/kerosene (I have much more experience with JP5 than
>> gas, and JP5 is basically a high grade kerosene/diesel), but rather it is
>> there to break up the water tension & allow the water to "float" on top of
>> the gas/oil/whatever.
>
>Actualy it's to keep the water from forming 'beads' because of differences
>in density. The surface tension of water is much higher than most fuels so
>if you put a little water in a lot of fuel you don't want it to bead. This

	As I said, I know "just a bit" about this. I know that we would
often get the bubbles from the detergent/water combo floating on top of
everything, assisting in preventing a reflash by keeping a blanket between
the air and the fuel/water.

>As to water floating on top of gasoline, it won't for any lentgh of time
>greater than a fraction of a second, detergent or no detergent.

	The longer it takes, the better it works.


>> 	Actually, by using solar heating/cooling techiques instead of
>> (ineffecient) conversion to electicity, you can save MUCH more energy.
>
>I have several friends who are as fanatical about this technology as you
>seem to be. I find it interesting that in 20 years of playing with it they
>are still in the red.

	A "friend" of my fathers has been heating his home with it longer
than I've known him, and that's about 20 years. Had his investment returned
a LONG time ago.

>The proof is in the pudding.

	As with many things, it's the implementation, not just the
underlying technology.

>> 	I don't see how, you just get it up there inside the orbit of the
>> earth, and let gravity do the rest.
>
>If it was ONLY that simple. When you leave the Earth you have the Earths
>orbital momental (and it is considerable). I'll refer you to:

	Ok, like I said, "I don't see how". I hadn't considered all the
angles, but then, I don't play with rockets much.

	My father didn't like me playing with fire, so it wasn't an option
as a child.

>Because I'm way to lazy today to want to delve in to triple-integrals and
>such.

	I doubt I'd understand the math at this point. One of my failings.

>> 	I don't mind killing a salamander or 100, but I don't want my
>> electric supply, and it's attendant costs to be dependent on ONE
>> technology, or source of supply.
>
>If there is any alternative that will fulfill the requirements and doesn't
>require the arbitrary collateral damage then it isn't worth it, period. If

	I'll go that far.

>for no other reason than the ethical responsibility to pass on the world as
>undamaged as possible to the next generation. (another oversite in current
>economic thought that I find makes it unusable)

	Well, there's damaged, and there's damaged.

>Actualy natural gas isn't any more flamable than gasoline or alcohol. What
>makes it safer is the gas diffuses in the air much faster than either
>alcohol or gasoline. In fact, in an accident I'd rather have a gas involved
>than a liquid because of this. I've seen several natural gas fires and they
>burn a yellow-orange (course they could be putting something in there
>besides the odorant to cause this).

	Question, when you said that there we'd need more land under
production than we have available to produce enough CHO3 (IIRC) to replace
oil, was that using current corn/soybean as a base material, or was that
considering higher biomass stuff such as Hemp &etc. As well, where was that
number from?

	I really do think that the best option is massively diversified
energy sources, with each working in their places.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From brownrk1 at texaco.com  Wed Sep  9 22:29:55 1998
From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:29:55 +0800
Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F8414@MSX11002>



Jim Choate wrote:

> Quit sending these responses to my private email. If you want to
discuss it
> keep it on the list. Any further such private submissions go into
/dev/null
> unread. This also means you don't need to cc: if you send it to the
cpunks
> list since I'm subscribed...;)

It's because we're using these broken-as-designed mailers 
that put your name into the reply as well as the the list :-(

> Now, back to more intersting discussion...

Definitely

[...snip Jim Burnes on hemp yields (because you all already read it...]

> You're going to seriously claim that 1 gallon of hemp oil is
equivalent to 3
> gallons of gasoline? I don't think so. I've seen hemp burn and it
don't burn
> anywhere near that efficiently.

I'm begining to lose track of this thread. Are we talking about:

1) reducing  fossil fuel use for conservation? (not something
Cypherpunks mention a lot :-)

2) ways of cutting the imported fuel requirement of "western"
countries in order to save money and/or  teach the Arabs a lesson?
(cf the sideline about Israel)

3) how to live with as little interaction as possible with the 
the existing state or corporate economy?

4) what we do for fuel if the balloon goes up, the lights go out,
the crash comes & we are in an "Earth Abides" scenario? 
i.e everyone has died, or gone away, or stopped working for 
money and we ahve to survive as best we can?

If (1) or (2) then reducing fuel consumption is a damn
sight more cost-effective than substituting anything else 
for motor gas. You know, insulation, designing buildings
for the climate, high fuel taxes, subsidised public
transport... all the things us lefty Europeans like bit that
don't go down well in Houston, Texas. I take Jim's point
about solar-powered houses being a money pit - although
there does seem to be some medium-term benefit in 
glass cladding  for passive solar heating (known to our
 ancestors as "conservatories" :-)

And if (2) is what you mean then you probably ought to 
carry on paying the dollars to those Arabs so they carry on
spending them on American products - like McDonalds 
and Disney and MS Windows. Cultural imperialism works
wonders. For every Muslim for whom America is the 
great Satan there is another for whom it is the home of
Elvis. Or the Simpsons. Or Charley Pride. Or even Jim 
Reeves. You wouldn't believe how much Jim Reeves 
you hear in Africa.

For (3) again the easy way is to arrange your lifestyle
to consume less.  I expect if you are distilling fuel-grade
alcohol in your yard the local equivalent of customs and
excise will want a word with you.

If you are going to burn plant material for fuel
don't bother with oil.  Either distill the alcohol (if you 
are in a warmish climate like southern California you can
probably get the best yields from cane - but it sucks up 
water like a herd of  hungry camels) or burn wood.

In a temperate climate you probably get the best yields 
from coppiced trees - use whatever  grows in your local area
and coppices well. Willow grown in wetlands does well.
The yield of burnable biomass is far better than most 
herbaceous crops. Use hazel, birch even oak. 
Leaves make animal feed, stouter poles are for timber,
thinner ones for burning - if you need higher temperature
make charcoal out of it.    Lots of use for the bark as well. 
Just like our ancestors used to do before all this 
industry. Of course you won't be able to run a car on it...
for that you need the alcohol.

If we did get thrown back to a mediaeval economy those 
of us who survived probably would be growing hemp
(you heard it here first) but not as a fuel crop.

Hemp has great yields but it isn't much cop as fuel
It was one of  the major crops in England a thousand 
years ago -  in some pollen studies it was the major crop. 
That's not for recreational or medicinal use (you don't
need acres of it for that)  but as animal feed and 
for fibre, with fuel as a useful byproduct. Probably not as an 
an oil crop & if it was it would probably be cooking oil.

> I also notice it doesn't mention what it costs to raise that 4
tons/acre...

Clearly more than getting oil from out of the ground.
That's why my employers are still in business.

There were some Welsh hill farmers on the radio the other day
asking more  more subsidy from the government.
Apparently their average income is now only about 10,000 UKP a year
(maybe 16,000 USD). They were complaining that their fathers
and grandfathers used to be able to get a living from the 
land, but they can't, and they were blaming the "global market"
and urban-dominated governments who didn't understand
farming.

Of course the truth is that they can live the way their grandfathers
lived if they want to. But in the last 100 years *everyone* *else* has
got richer and the way of life of a small farmer in the Welsh hills
now looks like poverty.

And there is nothing (other than the law) to stop someone with 
30 acres and a cow from growing their hemp and their willow
withies (in Wales)  or their cotton and their cane (in California)
and riding their own  horse and making their own clothes and 
having almost nothing to do with the rest of the modern economy.

But they won't be able to have a car, or a computer and if they 
get any modern medicine it will be on welfare.

We probably ought to know *how* to live like that, just in case things
really fall apart.  (I remember once having to show someone how to 
squat over a hole-in-the-ground latrine because he had only ever
used bogs with seats) . But don't look forward to it.

Ken Brown (usual disclaimers still in force)







From petro at playboy.com  Wed Sep  9 22:35:52 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:35:52 +0800
Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809101757.MAA04638@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03110710b21dca65a98e@[206.189.103.244]>



At 12:57 PM -0500 9/10/98, Jim Choate wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:26:47 -0600 (MDT)
>> From: Jim Burnes <jvb at ssds.com>
>> Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness)
>> Apparently hemp hurd gassification yields a fairly sizeable, renewable
>> amount of energy per acre.  Lemme see if I have the reference....
>
>> Historically Hemp (Cannabis Sativa L.) has been a very high yielding plant
>> (Haney 1975).  Assuming that hemp produces up to 4 tons/acre seed plus 10
>> tons/acre stalks, Table 1 shows how many gallons of liquid fuel import
>>could be
>> saved by each of the following proven biomass fuel conversion routes.
>>
>>        Table 1. Conversion technologies for hemp stalks and hemp oil
>>
>> CONVERSION                                           CONVERSION GASOLINE
>>EQUIV
>> TECHNOLOGY                                             EFF - %    GAL/ACRE
>>
>> 1  Ethanol from fermentation of hydrolyzed cellulose    20      200
>> 2  Digestion of whole stalks to methane                 50      500
>> 3  Producer gas from thermal gasification of stalks     85      1000
>> 4  Methanol from syngas from gasification of stalks     65      750
>> 5  Methanol from pyrolysis of stalks                    3       30
>>
>> OIL SEEDS - 4 tons/acre
>>
>> 6  Hemp Seed oil from Seeds, no conversion              100     300
>> 7  Biobioesel premium diesel fuel from hemp seed        90      270
>>     oil combined chemically with methanol
>
>You're going to seriously claim that 1 gallon of hemp oil is equivalent to 3
>gallons of gasoline? I don't think so. I've seen hemp burn and it don't burn
>anywhere near that efficiently.

	No, he is saying you get the energy equiv. of 300 gallons of gas
from 4 tons of seed, PLUS the other stuff from the stalks.

	I can't speak for the veracity of the numbers, but that would be my
interpretation.

	Also, he is talking when processed into fuel oil/gas, not put in a
pipe and...

	Never mind.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 22:37:28 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:37:28 +0800
Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809101859.NAA05373@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: "Brown, R Ken" <brownrk1 at texaco.com>
> Subject: RE: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:30:05 -0500

> > Now, back to more intersting discussion...
> 
> Definitely

> I'm begining to lose track of this thread. Are we talking about:

Well if we really, really must go back there....;)

What I was originaly looking to discuss was the impact of the injection of a
globaly available, economical, and effective replacement of petroleum
products on the international relationships. In particular the impact on
places like Isreal, Iran, US, etc. The only real relevance this has to
cypherpunks is from the economics side (why I've been trying to stay on
topic with the economics comments in parens) and how such a shift of
economic and industrial capabilites out of centralized and nationaly
controlled geographies might impact these same countries ability to remain
stable and the consequences of such.

Take Kuwait for example, the impact there would be devistating. And like a
domino effect (or want of a nail...) the repurcussions can be imagined to
run up the food chain. It is related, though not directly, to an issue that
I was engaged in several days ago about Gibson and the relationships of
governments, individuals, large companies, technology development, etc.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mgering at ecosystems.net  Wed Sep  9 22:44:30 1998
From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:44:30 +0800
Subject: Spot The Fed
Message-ID: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A19284637@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>




Traceroute doesn't use DNS? Whatever.

And it's ICMP, Internet Control Management Protocol.

The original traceroute works by sending User Datagram Protocol (UDP)
datagrams (default 3) to an invalid port address of a remote host,
starting with a Time-To-Live (TTL) of 1 causing the first router in the
path to return an ICMP Time Exceeded Message (TEM), traceroute
increments the TTL by one (up the max hop count, default 30) and
resends, reaching the next router, until an ICMP Destination Unreachable
Message is returned indicating the unreachable port on the destination
host.

The IP addresses of the hops are determined by the return packet
headers, there is no hostname. Reverse DNS lookup is used to give you
the host names, which can be turned on or off in the traceroute options
(it's much faster if you turn it off).

Traceroute was a diagnostic kludge. RFC 1393 describes and ICMP-based
traceroute function, whereby traceroute sends an ICMP trace message (see
the RFC for details) but there is still no hostname on the return
packet, DNS is still used.

Certain ICMP messages are often disabled and/or certain ports blocked or
"shaped" by routers under thresholds to prevent common Denial-of-Service
(DoS) attacks.

	Matt



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Raymond D. Mereniuk [mailto:Raymond at fbn.bc.ca]

> Traceroute doesn't use DNS, it doesn't need to as it already has the 
> IP numbers.  DNS is a system which provides IP numbers when you 
> give it a domain name.  Reverse DNS provides a host name to an IP 
> address but Traceroute doesn't use it.
> 
> Traceroute works at the router level.  Traceroute is like Ping but 
> provides information on every hop including IP number and 
> assigned device name.  With Traceroute if a host name is not 
> received, when requested of course, it is because the equipment 
> was not assigned a host name or it is deliberately suppressed.  I 
> don't use Traceroute a lot but this is the first time I have 
> seen host names suppressed.  
> 
> A lot of routers have ICM suppressed and will not provide a device 
> name.  If an end user site wants to provide better security they will 
> turn off ICM packets.  At that point Traceroute doesn't work at all.





From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep  9 22:59:32 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:59:32 +0800
Subject: CJ Update
Message-ID: <199809101852.OAA28421@dewdrop2.mindspring.com>



This from the AZ court docket of September 2 (note the out of sequence
entry date for the first item which was not there when we got the docket
on September 2 although the last two were):

8/25/98  6       ( FILED: 8/31/98) MINUTES:  before Mag Judge Nancy Fiora
                 Court telephonically notified that Carl Johnson is
                 defecating in his food tray, mutilating himself and writing
                 on the walls with his blood; court notes that dft spat upon
                 officers while awaiting his initial appearance[cc: all
                 cnsl] [6-1] re: minute entry [6-1] (sms)
                 [Entry date 09/02/98]

8/26/98  --      ORAL MOTION  for Psychiatric exam [0-0]  by Carl Edward
                 Johnson (sms) [Entry date 08/27/98]

8/26/98  5       ORDER  by Mag Judge Nancy Fiora granting  motion  for
                 Psychiatric exam [0-0]  Psychiatric examination ordered
                 for Carl Edward Johnson (sms) [Entry date 08/27/98]

----------

The AZ docket is archived at:

   http://jya.com/cej090298.htm

We also got today the Western Washington court docket which
shows when CJ's arrest warrant was issued and sealed, August 5:

   http://jya.com/cej082298.htm

We did a quick check of the WA court's cases for others (TCM and JYA)
who may have a sealed arrest warrant in force, but found none. But if 
there are any they may not be entered in the public record yet, as with
Carl's performance artistry.







From real at EDMC.net  Wed Sep  9 23:18:40 1998
From: real at EDMC.net (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:18:40 +0800
Subject: A Cypherpunk Trial, Yes
In-Reply-To: <199809092216.SAA19854@dewdrop2.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <199809101917.NAA19120@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>



Date sent:      	Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:10:37 -0400
To:             	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
From:           	John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
Subject:        	A Cypherpunk Trial, Yes
Send reply to:  	John Young <jya at pipeline.co
> 

As i'am one of persons mention in Toto's posts I would just like to 
say I think the posts were a joke.
With the help of of Vullis I was a pain to the list and this was Toto's 
way of acknowledging this
To the government readers of this list,the cigar was Cuban,will you 
put Bill in the cell with Toto.

>    http://jya.com/jg062397.htm
>    http://jya.com/jg090497.htm
>    http://jya.com/jg120997.htm
>    http://jya.com/jg121497.htm
>    http://jya.com/jg060898.htm (not June 10, as in the complaint; thanks to
> jeff-anon)
>    http://jya.com/jg072598.htm
>    http://jya.com/jg072798.htm
> 
> It was a pleasure to reread Toto(s)'s stuff while searching the 
> cpunk amazing archives -- what a waterfall from everyone of free 
> association, tants, jibes, potshots and richochets and self-mockery. 
> I now believe the report from TX that Carl's got an IQ off the charts
> like all cpunks off the wall.
> 
> It's worth keeping in mind that multiple users of pseudonyms is
> not unusual, at least among artists long before the Internet, and 
> not only performance group e-mailers like the Totos, CJ Parkers, 
> XxxMongers, Gus-Peters and endless Anonymees jostling for
> unrecognition.
> 
> Two venerable and heavily-used nyms in Europe are Luther Bissett 
> and Monty Cantsin. A dazzling Monty Cantsin posted here for a 
> while. A Luther Bissett message ridiculing the recent kiddie porn
> sweep was posted to Cyberia a few days ago. But these pseudonyms 
> and others are frequently used to taunt uptight authoritarians by 
> substantial numbers of people, sometimes acting in concert but 
> most often acting alone.
> 
> An exemplary case of acting up like the Totos and other performance
> pseudo-Feynmann's here, is that of Dario Fo, the Italian artist who 
> recently won the Nobel Prize. His off the chart genius, too, was in 
> mixing the real and imaginary to challenge, and to frighten, authority 
> into revealing their treacherous deception of the real and imaginary 
> to maintain state and religious control century after century, culture
> after culture. He, too, was regularly condemned by those obsesses
> with holding onto power, and sometimes arrested, for his imitations
> of them at their most buffoonish and serious.
> 
> Fo is from an earlier generation, though, and what more agressively
> offensive form is suitable for those younger we may be witnessing in 
> the Jim Bells, Unknown Arrestees, and those here not yet projected 
> onto the world stage but working the crowd most effectively.
> 
> Black Unicorn, step up to the mike. Show magic.
> 
> In any, case, I'm delighted to see Cypherpunks get credit in the Johnson
> pseudo-complaint for hosting transgressive art appropriate for the age of 
> widespreading disinformation. A tumultous trial to amplify this forum's 
> mayhemic virtues and vices would be magnificently chaotic and hopefully 
> anarchic to the max. 
> 
> Pray for CJ to get an equally mad attorney to demand his day, and our day, 
> in court. This under-recognized witness is eager for a highly offensive 
> part to play, a gibbering idiot like Toto(s), you bet, I admire their style of
> spleen and threat to the fools of seriousness.
> 
> 
> 


                  Graham-John Bullers
real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca | ab756 at freenet.toronto.on.ca
   http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

    I dream of things that never were and say,why not?    





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 23:19:43 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:19:43 +0800
Subject: ASL: RE: RE: RE: Copyright infringement (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809101938.OAA05621@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:58:40 -0700
> From: Randy King <randyk at ims.com>
> Subject: Re: ASL: RE: RE: RE: Copyright infringement (fwd)

> Yes, but there is a difference.  It is legal to share a book.  Although it
> is copyrighted, you have the right to share it, at least in the US.  A letter
> is similar.  

Um, actualy not. It is actualy illegal for me to allow you to borrow my
books, CD's, albums, etc.

> been a court case on this yet?  Consider that companies have the right to
> make copies of all electronic mail coming through their Internet connections.

They own it. The employees are acting as agents of the employer and
therefore the employer, not the employee, is the owner of that traffic. So
if you send an email to some mailing list on the clock or with their
equipment then the traffic wasn't ever yours. The owner of a copyright can
make as many copies as they choose. The question is what do they do with the
email that comes from the other person using the other employers computer to
send the traffic....

As far as I know this hasn't made it into court in this exact form, however
it isn't likely too either. The precedences, and reasoning behind, the above
interpretation is well known and understood (at least by lawyers). 

> The issue is still very open on web sites.  The federal govt. is considering
> legislation (even as we type) that would make it illegal to copy any info
> from a web site written by a child (under 18).  Since viewing it makes a copy,
> it would be illegal to look at one without the writer's permission.  And 
> there is no obligation on the writer's part to divulge his age.  It is 
> obvious the feds don't understand the technology yet.  Again, I haven't had
> a chance to observe what has happened here in the past 6 or 8 months now.  

What is the bill number for this?

> Anyway, under your interpretation (which is probably the legal one 
> unfortunately), viewing a web site would be illegal without permission
> first.  Regardless of age.  

Not viewing it since the act of putting the data on the server is an implied
permission to view. However, the instant you make a permanent copy on your
hard-drive, that's not in the browsers short term cache, would be illegal.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Sep  9 23:34:37 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:34:37 +0800
Subject: oil, greens, recycling, and poly-ticks.
In-Reply-To: <199809101649.JAA18487@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <35F82A2D.65AD@lsil.com>



> Yep, and they can't figgure out what to say, so they just cop out saying it's healthier.  :)
> 
Julia Child, when asked to what she owed her longevity, replied:

"RED MEAT AND GIN"

Anyone got a good recipe for a New Orleans style bourbon steak?





From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  9 23:40:44 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:40:44 +0800
Subject: IP: Dave Barry:  "Funny Money"
Message-ID: <v04011716b21dd8358230@[139.167.130.247]>




--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com
X-Sender: believer at telepath.com
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:39:07 -0500
To: believer at telepath.com
From: believer at telepath.com
Subject: IP: Dave Barry:  "Funny Money"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com
Precedence: list
Reply-To: believer at telepath.com

Source:  Miami Herald
http://www.herald.com/archive/barry/archive/98sep06.htm

Published Friday, September 4, 1998, in the Miami Herald

Funny Money  By DAVE BARRY

 Recently I received a press release from the U.S. Treasury Department.
Naturally my first move was to verify, via chemical analysis, that it was
genuine. There has been a sharp increase in the number of counterfeit
Treasury Department press releases, as an embarrassed CNN found out last
month when it reported, incorrectly, that Federal Reserve Board Chairman
Alan Greenspan does all the voices on the popular cartoon show South Park.
(In fact, he does only Kenny and Mr. Hankey.)

 But this particular press release turned out to be authentic; it announced
that, this fall, we'll be seeing a new, redesigned $20 bill. This is part
of an anti-counterfeiting program to redesign all of our old currency,
which has become too easy to duplicate with modern color photocopiers -- a
fact that was made all too clear when the Xerox Corp., in its 1997 annual
report, reported profits of ``$850 trillion, mostly in 50s.''

 Why does counterfeit money represent a threat to the nation? And how can
we, as consumers, be sure that we have spelled ``counterfeit'' correctly?
To answer these questions, we need to understand exactly what money is, and
what makes it valuable.

 Back in ancient times, when people were much stupider than they are today,
there was no such thing as money. People transacted business by trading
actual, physical things. For example, if you sold a cow, the buyer would
pay for it by giving you, say, 14 physical ducks. Even in those days, that
was a lot of ducks to be carrying around, and the bank wouldn't let you
deposit them, because they fought with the chickens. Also the automatic
teller machines were disgusting.

 Finally, the ancient Egyptians got sick of this and invented the first
unit of paper currency, called the `simoleon.'' The way the Egyptians
explained the concept to their trading partners was: ``For your
convenience, we're going to start paying you with these pieces of paper,
which are valuable because they have a picture of Ulysses Grant.'' The
trading partners were not crazy about this concept, but they went along
with it, because the Egyptians had also invented spears.

 Today, the basic principle remains the same: We trust money because our
government stands behind it. A counterfeit $20 bill is a worthless piece of
paper backed by nothing; whereas a real $20 bill, issued by the Treasury
Department, has value, because any time you want, you can take it to Fort
Knox, site of the federal gold bullion depository, and exchange it, no
questions asked, for a duck. Try it yourself! If they give you any trouble,
mention my name, Art Buchwald.

 But the point is that, starting this fall, you're going to start seeing a
drastically redesigned $20 bill. Among the major changes are:

 -- To thwart would-be photocopiers, instead of saying ``TWENTY DOLLARS,''
the new $20 bills say ``FIFTEEN DOLLARS.''

 -- The Nike swoosh has been enlarged.

 -- The engraved portrait of Andrew Jackson has been given a new,
up-to-date hairstyle, patterned, according to the Treasury Department press
release, ``after Barry Manilow.'' President Jackson also has been given a
vivacious new facial expression that seems to say: ``I am looking good, and
I am READY TO PARTY with the engraved portraits on other currency
denominations!''

 -- On the back of the bill, in the engraving of the White House, on the
far right-hand side, in the engraved shrubbery, is a tiny crouching
engraving of Kenneth Starr.

 -- For verification purposes, the new bill is impregnated with plutonium
particles that emit a distinctive pattern of atomic radiation. ``This poses
absolutely no health danger whatsoever to humans,'' notes the Treasury
Department press release, which adds: ``Do not ever put the bill in your
pocket.''

 These improvements, plus the top-secret ``auto-detonate'' feature that I
am not allowed to mention in this column, will make the new $20 bill --
which is costing the government $348.50 per unit to manufacture -- the most
advanced anti-counterfeit currency in the world. But the whole effort will
be wasted unless you, the consumer, do your part by keeping a sharp eye out
for ``funny money.''

 The Treasury Department is asking that you regularly inspect all of your
bills, of all denominations. If you notice anything suspicious -- according
to the press release, this especially means ``foreign words, men in wigs,
strings of numbers, a greenish coloring or some kind of weird eyeball
floating over a pyramid'' -- you should immediately put the suspect bills
into an envelope and mail them to: The U.S. Treasury Department
Anti-Counterfeit Task Force, c/o Dave Barry, The Miami Herald, Miami, Fla.
33132. Please help. Only by joining together to fight this thing can we, as
a nation, buy me a giant mansion with servants and a lake. It will have
ducks. Thank you.

 Copyright � 1998 The Miami Herald

-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only. For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
-----------------------




**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
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with the message:
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**********************************************
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--- end forwarded text


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From jvb at ssds.com  Wed Sep  9 23:43:11 1998
From: jvb at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:43:11 +0800
Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809101757.MAA04638@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980910131736.441C-100000@jb3.fastrans.net>



On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote:

(risking /dev/nullification "is that like jury nullification?")

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:26:47 -0600 (MDT)
> > From: Jim Burnes <jvb at ssds.com>
> > Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness)
> 
> > Apparently hemp hurd gassification yields a fairly sizeable, renewable
> > amount of energy per acre.  Lemme see if I have the reference....
> 
> > Historically Hemp (Cannabis Sativa L.) has been a very high yielding plant
> > (Haney 1975).  Assuming that hemp produces up to 4 tons/acre seed plus 10
> > tons/acre stalks, Table 1 shows how many gallons of liquid fuel import could be
> > saved by each of the following proven biomass fuel conversion routes.
> > 
> >        Table 1. Conversion technologies for hemp stalks and hemp oil
> > 
> > CONVERSION                                           CONVERSION GASOLINE EQUIV
> > TECHNOLOGY                                             EFF - %    GAL/ACRE
> > 
> > 1  Ethanol from fermentation of hydrolyzed cellulose    20      200
> > 2  Digestion of whole stalks to methane                 50      500
> > 3  Producer gas from thermal gasification of stalks     85      1000
> > 4  Methanol from syngas from gasification of stalks     65      750
> > 5  Methanol from pyrolysis of stalks                    3       30
> > 
> > OIL SEEDS - 4 tons/acre
> > 
> > 6  Hemp Seed oil from Seeds, no conversion              100     300
> > 7  Biobioesel premium diesel fuel from hemp seed        90      270
> >     oil combined chemically with methanol
> 
> You're going to seriously claim that 1 gallon of hemp oil is equivalent to 3
> gallons of gasoline? I don't think so. I've seen hemp burn and it don't burn
> anywhere near that efficiently.

I think you misunderstood.  They are claiming "gasoline equivalent
gallons/acre" -- not that 1 gallon of hemp oil = 3 gallons of gasoline.
And were not talking about "burning" hemp in that sense.  In this
particular case were talking about hemp-based biodiesel.

> 
> I also notice it doesn't mention what it costs to raise that 4 tons/acre...
> 

Raising a full acre of hemp in that matter is something I don't have the
data on.  However, hemp is widely known as a low-maintenance crop -- that
translates little to no fertilizer.  After that we have the price of the
land/month, servicing loans on the farm equipment, labor costs, taxes,
energy, water etc.  Typical business overhead.   And for that 1000 galgas
eq/acre.

Certainly nothing out of the ordinary compared to the overhead in
the oil industry.  Although on a cost/gallon overhead I don't know.
Obviously this would take a least one growth season.

ObCrypto: In the case of TEOTWAWKI from Y2K, we are going to need
energy to run our computers and crypto on.  This might also be 
important to the people wanting to run a packet radio relay net.
(even though the then non-existant FCC might not like them
using crypto on a packet link)

I copied Tom Reed and Agua Das on this since they can address
the tech matters more thoroughly than I can.

Other than that we should probably take this off list.

Jim






From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 23:46:34 1998
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:46:34 +0800
Subject: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809102009.PAA06031@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:15:09 -0500
> From: Petro <petro at playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)

> 	Well, we used to dump 1000-3000 gallons of waste fuels into a pit,
> but I'd guess a decent size bucket or tray would work.
> 
> 	We had a smaller pit about 5x3 feet.

Youser, this is a plan to have every fireman and policeman in Austin show up
at my house Saturday afternoon isn't it (you crafty devil you)?...

I'll have to beg off since I live right in the middle of town any showy
demonstrations would be met with some neighborhood hostility I suspect. I
also don't believe the folks who own the land out in Elgin where my shop is
would go for that either, they're worried enough about my rocket engines and
Tesla coils...

> truck, we are talking no more than 10 or 20 gallons of fuel, tops.

> 	As I said, I know "just a bit" about this. I know that we would
> often get the bubbles from the detergent/water combo floating on top of
> everything, assisting in preventing a reflash by keeping a blanket between
> the air and the fuel/water.

Well in petroleum fires it isn't the liquid that burns but the very thin gas
layer just above it. You can actualy put a gas fire out with a wash of
gasoline. It's got to literaly be thrown on the fire and it needs to be
much larger than the quantity of material being burned. The soap/water
combo act as a layer reducing the outgassing and hence starving the fire of
fuel. It also lowers the temperature also helping the fire fighting
(remember temperature, fuel, oxidizer).

The bubbles of water than form, without the soap, sink to the bottem of the
spilled fuel and play no part in the fire/fire-fighting process.

> 	A "friend" of my fathers has been heating his home with it longer
> than I've known him, and that's about 20 years. Had his investment returned
> a LONG time ago.

Where does he live? What kind of house does he live in? What happens when we
expand his system to cover a small city of say 10k and include schools,
hospitals, business, etc.? What are the costs to install and operate
compared to traditional methods?

If he lives in a wood house in Alaska that won't work, if he lives in a mud
hut in the desert of Nevada all you need is a straw mat, a fan, and some
water to cool (yeah I know that's a literal exageration, but environment
does play a role).

There's this house here in Austin that is thermo-regulated by a fluid that
is pumped several hundred feet into a hill. The temperature in the core of
the hill stays about 68F year around, his house stays around 72 or so year
around as a consequence. Unfortunately, we don't have enough hills in Austin
(and if you've never been to Austin, we're nothing but hills) to take care
of the entire city. The heat from your neighbors house ends up in  your
house and vica versa.

> 	Question, when you said that there we'd need more land under
> production than we have available to produce enough CHO3 (IIRC) to replace
> oil, was that using current corn/soybean as a base material, or was that
> considering higher biomass stuff such as Hemp &etc. As well, where was that
> number from?

I suspect (and that's all it is) that when one takes the population growth
rate, requirements for water, transportation, housing, commercial
enterprises, waste, etc. there won't be enough arrible land left to grow
sufficient quantities of any plant material for anything except food.

There are issues with clathrates as well. Such as the fact these materials
are also the result of decay of animal matter and some percentage of
outgassing on the sea bed from deep geo-sources and ultimitely face the
same sort of issues with petroleum *if* the various curves don't match. The
question is, and I admit to have no hard data other than supposition, what
are/would be the curves if we used clathrates? Is the deposition rate
sufficient given a global extraction rate that was positive over time? Does
the increase in bio-mass as a result of population growth compensate
sufficiently?

I don't know and really would be hesitant to try to put real numbers to that
with what references I have available currently. And given my current
commitment level I'm not likely to spend a great deal of time working on it
to solidify the model.

I support diversity as well, unfortunately in some instances it's more
economical (with the inclusion of waste and other issues normaly ignored)
to go with a single solution on large scales. And that after all is the
issue, not one house out of 10,000 but all 10,000.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From guy at panix.com  Wed Sep  9 23:47:01 1998
From: guy at panix.com (Information Security)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:47:01 +0800
Subject: oil, greens, recycling, and poly-ticks.
Message-ID: <199809101948.PAA09931@panix7.panix.com>



   >   From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
   >
   >   8/25/98   Carl Johnson is defecating in his food tray...

No shit!

   >   From: Ray Arachelian <sunder at brainlink.com>
   >
   >   Every toilet in our apt building was exchanged for one that supposedly
   >   saves water... it now takes an average of three flushes to sink a
   >   bowlful of turds... 

No shit!

   >   My math says that's a lot more wasted water than the single flush
   >   of the old toilet.

Solution: http://yournewhouse.com/mainFR3.htm
---guy





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep  9 23:53:13 1998
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:53:13 +0800
Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809102014.PAA06141@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:46:02 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Jim Burnes <jvb at ssds.com>
> Subject: Re: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)

> I think you misunderstood.  They are claiming "gasoline equivalent
> gallons/acre" -- not that 1 gallon of hemp oil = 3 gallons of gasoline.
> And were not talking about "burning" hemp in that sense.  In this
> particular case were talking about hemp-based biodiesel.

How many gallons of gasoline can you raise on an acre?

Actualy the point I was trying to make is that it's comparing apples and
oranges. Until it's in a dollars/gallon for each of them format no real
worthwhile comparison can be made.

> Raising a full acre of hemp in that matter is something I don't have the
> data on.  However, hemp is widely known as a low-maintenance crop -- that
> translates little to no fertilizer.  After that we have the price of the
> land/month, servicing loans on the farm equipment, labor costs, taxes,
> energy, water etc.  Typical business overhead.   And for that 1000 galgas
> eq/acre.

Well don't forget crop rotation since the hemp is going to deplete the soil
if you simply grow three crops a year (which is possible this far south).
There is also the issue of water, hemp is a plant that needs lots of water
and is very sensitive to light levels/times, tempearture and pH. Hemp also
leeches nitrogen quite heavily.


    ____________________________________________________________________

                            The seeker is a finder.

                                     Ancient Persian Proverb

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  9 23:56:00 1998
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:56:00 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Burning the Jolly Roger; Internet Anti-Piracy Technology
Message-ID: <v0401171ab21dddbccef6@[139.167.130.247]>




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:38:33 -0400
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce at ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Burning the Jolly Roger; Internet Anti-Piracy Technology
Cc: Peter F Cassidy <pcassidy at world.std.com>, Dan Geer <geer at world.std.com>,
        Terry Symula <symula at ma.ultranet.com>, "Heffan, Ira" <HEFFAN at tht.com>
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah at shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


             The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                          Presents

                       Peter Cassidy
                          Founder,
                     TriArche Research

                  Burning the Jolly Roger:
         Can Anti-Piracy Technologies Make the Internet
            a Shrinkage-Free Commercial Platform?

                    Tuesday, October 6, 1998
                           12 - 2 PM
              The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                One Federal Street, Boston, MA




For most of this century, the fusion of intellectual property and media
was enough to ensure that its owners could reasonably be expected to
profit from its consumption.  Most people didn't have the means to lift
Ella Fitzgerald's music from her records, so fans of her music would
actually have to go out and buy her records.  Today, a high proportion of
ordinary households have the technical capacity at hand to take
recordings, visual or audio artifacts and executables, digitize them if
need be, and transmit it to millions of people overnight over the
Internet.  This state of affairs could signal the demise of the software
and entertainment industries.  Evolving almost as quickly as the
interlopers' sophistication in aquiring and distributing ill-gained wares,
however, are technical solutions to foil pirates, technologies of varying
potency and adaptability.

	Standard specifications for license management systems that
prevent unauthorized use of software have been drafted by the X/Open Group
this summer; watermarking systems and digital wrappers that allow
creatives to either mark or encapsulate images and sounds to frustrate
infringers have been on the market for the past few years; comprehensive
smart wrapper systems like InterTrust and C-dilla promise persistent
protection for all digital artifacts; and at least one system TriArche
Research Group has reviewed under NDA can prevent the most all
non-photographic copying of content presented in a Web browser.
Meanwhile, policing technologies like Online Monitoring Service's
WebSentry can locate pirated intellectual property on the Web and in
Usenet news groups.  None of these technologies are perfect but, as they
mature, they will make it far more difficult for infringers to take
control of intellectual property and to share it with their
contemporaries.  The Web might never lower its shrinkage rate to that of,
say, Wal-Mart but merchants in this medium already have many of the tools
they need to clean up this digital Barbary Coast.

Peter Cassidy is an IT industry writer and analyst at large:  Mr. Cassidy,
director of research at his own firm, TriArche Research Group, has engaged
consulting clients in North America and the Middle East.  As well, Mr.
Cassidy contracts as an information technology analyst with other
industrial research firms, researching topics as varied as network
security, multimedia applications and international telephony markets,
among them, Strategy Analytics, Giga Information Group, Decision
Resources, Dataquest, Business Research Group, The American Institute for
Business Research and CI-InfoCorp.  Mr. Cassidy writes under his own name
for international business publications and general readership magazines
such as  WIRED, Covert Action Quarterly, InformationWeek, CIO Magazine,
The Economist, Forbes ASAP, Software Developer & Publisher Magazine,
Silicon Strategies, The Texas Observer, The Progressive, Telepath
Magazine, American Banker, Datamation, Computerworld, World Trade
Magazine, and the National Security Institute Advisory.  Mr. Cassidy has
been interviewed about technology issues on several broadcast radio
programs in the United States and, appropriately enough, on C|Net Radio,
an international Internet-based audio network. His reportage on national
political affairs has been reprinted in college text books and
anthologies. He has also contracted as a consultant to syndicated
television magazine programs in the United States and Britain.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, October 6, 1998, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of
the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch
is $32.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware,
and the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code:
jackets and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate
business attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since
we purchase these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the
price of your lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress
code.


We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we
*really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of
Boston", by Saturday, October 3rd, or you won't be on the list for
lunch.  Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston
will have to be sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The
Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $32.50. Please include your
e-mail address, so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements
(We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for
instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work
something out.


Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

November   Dan Geer       TBA
December   Joseph DeFeo   TBA
January    Ira Heffan     Internet Software and Business Process Patents

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston
on the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah at shipwright.com>.


For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston,
send "info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto:
majordomo at ai.mit.edu> . If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail
list, send "subscribe dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto:
majordomo at ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


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-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Sep 10 00:36:16 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:36:16 +0800
Subject: Happy Fourth of July ( was : Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb21dc3620425@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <35F83878.62D5@lsil.com>



Happy Fourth of July! and how did this thread start?

Petro wrote:
> 
>         I'd also suggest using a water extinguisher, the kind you can
> refill/recharge yourself. There are some out there, the big silver kind
> where you can unscrew the top and fill with your liquid of choice, then
> presurize with  a tire pump. As an aside, one _could_ fill these with a
> combination of gasoline and a gelling agent to make a short range flame
> thrower, not that that would be a smart or safe thing to do (really, there
> wouldn't be much to keep the flame from wandering back up inside the
> cylinder, and haveing it explode in your hands would make it very hard to
> type...).
> 
Actually these things are usually inverted so that the liquid is fed out
from the bottom so the hose probably won't act like a fuse. At least
until the liquid runs out and there is a combustible pathway into the
container. If you try this one could you get someone to videotape it
from a safe distance? It would make a great AVI for an 'anarchists on
the web' site.

At least mention nitrogen or helium. 
But COMPRESSED_AIR + GASOLINE? 
Are you one nut short of a matched pair? 
Gasoline scares the hell out of me. It should you.
You don't live anywhere near me do you?
You should try baking bread instead.
Don't you think this conversation should be continued on some AOL forum? 

egads,
Mike





From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Sep 10 00:39:36 1998
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:39:36 +0800
Subject: oil, greens, recycling, and poly-ticks.
In-Reply-To: <199809101948.PAA09931@panix7.panix.com>
Message-ID: <199809102039.QAA06951@dewdrop2.mindspring.com>



Ray's a much too delicate a cpunk to report what going on
with low-flow toilets in NYC. Most of us close the lid, kick
the lever fleeing the stench, which jiggles the muck a bit, 
leaves it for the next hold-breath lid lifter, who figures that's 
what Guiliani has ordered the lifestyle cops.

Trainspotting-type diving for the good stuff is the practice
in Manhattan's best clubs, where Brut reigns, and Carl's 
seasonings show the way to theme prison food franchising, 
emulating the CEO who Julia Childed the airline food cart.

Let me tell later about The Harvard Club of NY's kitchen inability
to pass a health inspection since the Depression. Having surveyed
it recently DN and me toyed with the DCSNY's lunch there, other 
swell-suited cpunks wolfed it like CJ had pronounced it A-OK.






From mgering at ecosystems.net  Thu Sep 10 00:54:21 1998
From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:54:21 +0800
Subject: ASL: RE: RE: RE: Copyright infringement (fwd)
Message-ID: <33CCFE438B9DD01192E800A024C84A1928463C@mossbay.chaffeyhomes.com>




> Um, actualy not. It is actualy illegal for me to allow you to 
> borrow my books, CD's, albums, etc.

Uh, how so? Distribution copyright covers first-sale only, after that
the owner can lend or sell that item. If it were not for this, public
and private libraries could not exist.

This works for IP protected in tangible form, but falls down for
electronic IP. Software is not protected by distribution copyright, it
is instead licensed.

	Matt








From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 10 00:54:58 1998
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:54:58 +0800
Subject: Happy Fourth of July ( was : Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <35F83878.62D5@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <199809102054.QAA26964@domains.invweb.net>



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In <35F83878.62D5 at lsil.com>, on 09/10/98 
   at 01:37 PM, Michael Motyka <mmotyka at lsil.com> said:

>Don't you think this conversation should be continued on some AOL forum? 

You mean this *isn't* an AOL forum!?!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: For a good time, call 1-800-3IBMOS2

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From petro at playboy.com  Thu Sep 10 02:03:01 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:03:01 +0800
Subject: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199809102014.PAA06141@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0311070cb21df978b810@[206.189.103.244]>



At 3:14 PM -0500 9/10/98, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>> I think you misunderstood.  They are claiming "gasoline equivalent
>> gallons/acre" -- not that 1 gallon of hemp oil = 3 gallons of gasoline.
>> And were not talking about "burning" hemp in that sense.  In this
>> particular case were talking about hemp-based biodiesel.
>
>How many gallons of gasoline can you raise on an acre?
>Actualy the point I was trying to make is that it's comparing apples and
>oranges. Until it's in a dollars/gallon for each of them format no real
>worthwhile comparison can be made.

	No, the point is can enough be raised in this country to meet the
needs of the transportation industry in the near and mid term (anything
longer than 10 to 15 years out couldn't be predicted with accuracy anyway).

>> Raising a full acre of hemp in that matter is something I don't have the
>> data on.  However, hemp is widely known as a low-maintenance crop -- that
>> translates little to no fertilizer.  After that we have the price of the
>> land/month, servicing loans on the farm equipment, labor costs, taxes,
>> energy, water etc.  Typical business overhead.   And for that 1000 galgas
>> eq/acre.
>
>Well don't forget crop rotation since the hemp is going to deplete the soil
>if you simply grow three crops a year (which is possible this far south).
>There is also the issue of water, hemp is a plant that needs lots of water
>and is very sensitive to light levels/times, tempearture and pH. Hemp also
>leeches nitrogen quite heavily.

	Nitrogen is easy to replace, as long as you don't mind a few
tagants in the soil, and don't buy your diesel at the same place...

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From petro at playboy.com  Thu Sep 10 02:03:09 1998
From: petro at playboy.com (Petro)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:03:09 +0800
Subject: Happy Fourth of July ( was : Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re:e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb21dc3620425@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <v0311070db21dfa3ce5ee@[206.189.103.244]>



At 3:37 PM -0500 9/10/98, Michael Motyka wrote:
>Happy Fourth of July! and how did this thread start?
>Petro wrote:
>>         I'd also suggest using a water extinguisher, the kind you can
>> refill/recharge yourself. There are some out there, the big silver kind
>> where you can unscrew the top and fill with your liquid of choice, then
>> presurize with  a tire pump. As an aside, one _could_ fill these with a
>> combination of gasoline and a gelling agent to make a short range flame
>> thrower, not that that would be a smart or safe thing to do (really, there
>> wouldn't be much to keep the flame from wandering back up inside the
>> cylinder, and haveing it explode in your hands would make it very hard to
>> type...).
>Actually these things are usually inverted so that the liquid is fed out
>from the bottom so the hose probably won't act like a fuse. At least

	Some are, some aren't. depends on the age.

>until the liquid runs out and there is a combustible pathway into the
>container. If you try this one could you get someone to videotape it
>from a safe distance? It would make a great AVI for an 'anarchists on
>the web' site.

	Ummm, I live in the middle of Chicago, I don't think it's going to
be anytime soon.

>At least mention nitrogen or helium.

	Yeah, but it's harder to get than Air, which can be done with a
bicycle pump.

>But COMPRESSED_AIR + GASOLINE?
>Are you one nut short of a matched pair?
>Gasoline scares the hell out of me. It should you.

	Did you see the part where I mention that I am (a) an ex-marine,
and that (b) whilst in the Marine Corpse I was in Aircraft Firefighting and
Rescue? You ever seen 3000 gallons of jet fuel burn, and it was your job to
get up close and personal with a fire hose.

	5 gals. of burning gasoline is NOT a problem. 5 Gals. cooking off
in a sealed container IS a problem.

>You don't live anywhere near me do you?

	You live in S.F. right?

>You should try baking bread instead.

	Boring.

>Don't you think this conversation should be continued on some AOL forum?

	Fuck you.

petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.






From lodi at well.com  Thu Sep 10 02:17:15 1998
From: lodi at well.com (Alia Johnson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:17:15 +0800
Subject: toto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980903194936.773B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980910150537.4506A-100000@well.com>



Declan, I did look up your stuff on the internet and thanks. I'm writing
to let you know that as of yesterday it has been 14 days since the court
(Judge Fior) ordered CJ moved to a psychiatric facility and they still
have not moved him. No one has heard from him for a few days. I talked to
him last week and he was okay but going through some hard times.

Bogart, the lawyer in Tucson, if he does not hear about CJ's move by
romorrow will request a hearing demanding what is going on. But the prison
is not cooperative in communicating even with him. Cj has apparently not
got it together to put me on the visitors list but he seems not to have
got my mail with my SS # etc. that the prison requires in order to let
visitors come. Then they spend ten days establishing that you're not a
criminal. Jesus.

Any the lawyer does think that he will be moved to Springfield. The family
is in terror that he will disappear into there or be committed for a long
time or for life. I have asked his Texas lawyer Dowling, just today,
whether we can retain him to represent Cj's interest with respect to what
is happening with the psychiatric evaluation, and haven't heard back from
him yet.

I am writing to ask you to help me: will you point me to information on
Springfield, its reputation, rules, accessibility of information on how
patients/inmates are being treated, etc.? Any information you can help me
locate would be very welcome.

Thanks.  Alia J

P.S. I saw the request for a picture/cd of music, whatever, I'll look.

Here are a couple of his porno country/western song titles:  "turning good
girls bad, most fun I ever had."  "I'll give you my heart, but my dick
belongs to mama." "there's no niggers left in Oakland, and all myh lies
are true."  C.J. also wrote some absolutely beautiful lyric songs, and of
course his classic "Jesus Lives in Garberville" about a dope raid on the
long-haired barefoot blissed-out guy living on the land....

What's your mailing address?

And thanks again for your help, and for contacting CJ. He was happy to
hear that we had talked. But I think he's not getting all his mail.

Alia

On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I'd also be interested in seeing a copy of the RCMP page, on his old
> sympatico.ca/carljohn account.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, John Young wrote:
> 
> > I tried today to speak to Toto's attorney in Tucson, John Bogart 
> > (520-624-8196), and another in Texas supposedly involved, 
> > Larry Dowling (512-892-3393), but neither returned messages. 
> > Bogart's secretary later said he did not want to talk -- to me at least.
> > 
> > Next, I called the jail (520-868-3668) to get it's policy on 
> > contacting Toto. No incoming calls, he can call out. Mail to 
> > him okay:
> > 
> >    Carl Edward Johnson
> >    Inmate Number 05 98 7196
> >    CCA
> >    1155 North Dinal Parkway
> >    Florence, AZ 85232
> > 
> > Other reports, leads or news welcome. Anybody got a photo,
> > a CD of his music or hallelujahs? A mirror of his RCMP taunt?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 





From AIMSX at aol.com  Thu Sep 10 02:18:07 1998
From: AIMSX at aol.com (AIMSX at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:18:07 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail....
Message-ID: <4cb4c748.35f84ccc@aol.com>



I truly hope you don't stereotype all AOL users for this idiot's insane
ramblings.
Unfortunately, some people are just morons, but you get them on every ISP
anyway, they just aren't so obvious on others, because unfortunately, AOL
makes it easier to communicate.





From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Sep 10 02:38:57 1998
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:38:57 +0800
Subject: PGP5.5.5 Problem
In-Reply-To: <35F6A8B2.CCB6D9FF@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980909191149.007dfb50@m7.sprynet.com>



At 09:11 AM 9/9/98 -0700, Jim Van Over wrote:
>I am seeking assistance with a PGP 5.5.5 system and noting your comments
>on the net I thought it might be possible for you to help me with a
>solution.
>
>I have been using PGP5.5.5, successfully, for the past four months.
>However, beginning three days ago I began experiencing a problem.  I am
>using Netscape Navigator and the Netscape Message Center.  The problem:
>When I receive a PGP message I copy it to the clipboard, but, when I
>depress the "decrypt and verify" line on the PGP tool bar the screen for
>the "pass phrase" flashes briefly on the screen and disappears.  The


Are all the keys you're sending to VERIFIED?   Launch PGPKeys.










  








From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Sep 10 03:08:12 1998
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:08:12 +0800
Subject: Happy Fourth
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb21dc3620425@[206.189.103.244]>
Message-ID: <35F85C94.6A55@lsil.com>



I'm -almost- ready to admit defeat and move on.

> Did you see the part where I mention that I am (a) an ex-marine,
IMHO Marines burn just like the rest of us wimps. They just don't scream
as much.

> You ever seen 3000 gallons of jet fuel burn,
AOED the biggest fire I've seen was the fire here in CA last month. 6-8
Million tires. Nobody had the balls to put that one out. At peak 1000X
your jet fuel deal. Scary. Very.

> 5 gals. of burning gasoline is NOT a problem. 
ISASI ( it sure as shit is ) if you're wearing it on your back. 

> 5 Gals. cooking off in a sealed container IS a problem.
FYI 5 ounces mixed with compressed air in a metal container could easily
be fatal.

> Fuck you.
Yes, yes, PTMYT ( pleased to meet you too ).

Remember, shit draws flies. There'll just be more geniuses asking how to
make noncryptographic devices. I would enjoy some crypto-tech talk.
Found any cool primitive polynomials lately? Got a good block cipher
with a 4096 bit block size and an even bigger key space? Got some time
to donate to actually put together some good HW/SW systems?

Mike





From win at winwinwin.com  Thu Sep 10 18:18:36 1998
From: win at winwinwin.com (win at winwinwin.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:18:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: You and your guest could be the lucky winners.
Message-ID: <199573420021.G5398874@winwinwin.com>


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