From stuffed at stuffed.net Sun Nov 1 01:07:29 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED SUN NOV 1) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:07:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981101081000.7984.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + COMPUTER SLUTS + JACK'S HOUSE OF SLUTS + XXX EXTREME + HOT HUNNYS HARDCORE + HOT PICS + LADY PASSION'S EROTIC HAVEN + EXCESSIVE + PURE XXXCITEMENT + VELVET PALACE + THE TIKI CLUB + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/30323.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/11483.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/609.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/31873.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/21230.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- If you haven't visited STUFFED in the last few days, you're in for a real treat. It's faster than ever before and now, as a subscriber, you get 35 FREE new pics every day, plus over 100 more at carefully selected FREE sites we link to. This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From ph11627 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 1 14:19:40 1998 From: ph11627 at yahoo.com (ph11627 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:19:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: about your site Message-ID: <199811012206.OAA13547@toad.com> We'll Submit Your Site To Over 900 Search Engines, Directories, & Indices For A "One Time Cost" Of Only $39.95 *** 100% Money Back Guarantee *** *** Immediately Increase Your Sites Exposure *** For Less Than 4 Cents Each We Will Submit Your Web Site To Over 900 Of The Net's Hottest Search Engines, Directories & Indices. 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Call us toll free at (800) 771-2003 in the USA or Canada or (916) 771-4739 outside the USA and we'll provide you with all the necessary information to get you submitted Right Away... REMOVE INSTRUCTIONS To be removed from our email list, please return this message with the word, "remove" (without quotes) in the subject line. From oriente at capway.com Sun Nov 1 05:05:58 1998 From: oriente at capway.com (Emilio Oriente) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:05:58 +0800 Subject: info PGP from France Message-ID: The PGP 6.0 Manual is available in french ----------------------------------------- The User's Guide of the cryptographic application PGP 6.0 (Windows version) has been translated in french by some users from the newgroup fr.misc.cryptologie. The document is in Acrobat PDF format and can be downloaded freely at these URL : http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/9648/intimite.htm and soon mirrored on: http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/oracle/598/intimite.htm PGP 6.0 freeware has been published in USA in the early september by Network Associates, Inc. In spite of the US regulations prohibiting the export of strong cryptography softwares, unknowns have exported PGP 6.0 in Europe by email. The french is at this time the single language in which the PGP 6.0 manual has been translated. In the eyes of the french laws, the use of PGP 6.0 is prohibited on the extent of the french territory. But his holding in France and his importation from a country member of the European Union are perfectly legal. (IMPORTANT : the text of this Manual stays the property of Network Associates Inc. (NAI). NAI has not given his agreement for this translation, which is provided by his authors only temporaly, waiting for an official french version by NAI) From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 1 05:14:19 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:14:19 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: <199810312353.SAA23037@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199811011247.HAA19869@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> The rationale of the FOIA to NSA for TEMPEST docs is that due to increased public awareness of that technology, the manufacturers of classified TEMPEST products and services are chomping at the bit to sell them to a broader public market -- as with other dual-use technology like crypto. We were asked to make the FOIA by those who've gotten what they can from the many sources listed at Joel McNamara's TEMPEST site -- which show that the market is growing but is still hampered by classified restrictions: http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.htm Yes, it's improbably that NSA will release all the docs requested but perhaps some will be shaken loose, again as with other once classified technology like crypto. In part because of rising public awareness, in part because of manufacturers' desire, in part because NSA will have developed more advanced technology. Tim has heretofore advised on TEMPEST measures and the latest are useful, and correspond to what's available in the commercial market and what is available in mil/gov pubs -- many listed at Joel's site. We are working on our desktop model with a manufacturer who supplies RF-protected glass for government and industry rooms as well as for entire buildings. We figure that if we can make a workable model, we'll be able to use to demonstrate to our clients why TEMPEST protection is needed and how it can be accomplished in an elegant design manner, paralleling demonstrations used by the glass manufacturer to substantiate claims for his products. One of the many things that keeps techies from getting the public's money is being unable to convince the buyer that the invention is truly desirable. Thus comes the marketer, who has skills of invention of another sort to charm the skeptical consumer that this baby has got to be a part of his/her life -- like fancy homes, medical care, insurance cars, clothing, foods, weapons, bibles, and, above all, national security. So a mongerer's brew is needed to peddle these inessentials, composed of seriousness, humor, terror, lies and pretended guilelessness, the practices of anyone doing well or doing badly, indeed, humans going about whatever they do to fill up the void. BTW, the best technology is nearly always going to be classified, with sky high prices paid for by gullible citizens to calm their manufactured terrors (the religion model, once churches and temples now weapons and satellites; once the priest/architect hustle, now that of the the NatSec wonk/scientist), so the commercial market is only going to offer less than the best, the declassified waste products, while selling it as "The Best." So we're seeking the crumbs from the NatSec table. And will use what we get or don't get in our marketing campaign, having learned the immortally favorite scheme: a mix of fact, fiction and fixation on getting people to trust the seller, not the always waste promise. But Tim knows that, practices that like a master, makes bundles. And I always take him seriously, believe everything he says, and admire his deadpan sense of humor more than anything else. Been threatened by him, too, if I don't, all in accord with the NatSec madness of our era. From nobody at replay.com Sun Nov 1 08:16:42 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:16:42 +0800 Subject: info PGP from France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811011544.QAA25390@replay.com> > The PGP 6.0 Manual is available in french Y'know, I have yet to see a rational (non-marketing-speak) explanation of the advantages of switching to PGP 6.0... PGP 5.x appears to have no advantages over 2.6x, but when Windoze users began to "upgrade" to it, we had to rewrite our mailing list code, as -- of course -- it's mostly incompatible with 2.6x. Its other primary features -- public keys the size of Mack trucks, dog-slow decryption rates, and more complicated key management -- hardly count as advantages. So what's 6.0 got? Total incompatibility with previous versions? 10 MB executables? An additional bloatware serving "on the side"? Pah! It looks as if PGP today has more in common with Micro$oft Turd than the nice little "privacy for the masses" programme Phil wrote. From ac70 at cityscape.co.uk Sun Nov 1 08:38:04 1998 From: ac70 at cityscape.co.uk (Weekly Update) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:38:04 +0800 Subject: You have been added to Weekly Update Message-ID: <909936171.25805.qmail@ech> The owner of this list has moved it to ListBot. If you don't think you should be on this list, please send a message to f-1E5791606D4C7F28 at listbot.com The list owner has included the following welcome message: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR REGISTER WEEKLY UPDATE SUBSCRIBERS Dear Reader, Some time ago you asked to receive a weekly update of stories in The Register. Earlier this year The Register switched to continuous publication, and introduced a second mailing list for people wishing to receive daily story updates. Although we have been maintaining both lists, the mechanism is cumbersome, and we have now decided to merge them. This will take place in the next two weeks, after which you should receive notification of 15-20 stories a day. Should this not be acceptable, please mail reg at lettice.demon.co.uk a message with the heading UNSUBSCRIBE Should you be happy with this, no action on your part is required. Note that daily updates will not commence on this list for two weeks. Note also that although it will be possible to use the Listbot button on The Register front page to unsubscribe once the lists are merged, you cannot do so yet. If you wish to unsubscribe at the moment, mail reg at lettice.demon.co.uk as detailed above. Thank you for your support. ----------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent via ListBot. To remove yourself from this list, please visit http://www.listbot.com/remove.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- From stuffed at stuffed.net Mon Nov 2 01:14:06 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED MON NOV 2) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 01:14:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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MegaSites 240 Union Ave Suite 5 Campbell CA 95008 USA (408) 378-9996 From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 1 10:28:45 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 02:28:45 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:38 AM -0800 11/1/98, John Young wrote: >Tim has heretofore advised on TEMPEST measures and the >latest are useful, and correspond to what's available in the >commercial market and what is available in mil/gov pubs -- >many listed at Joel's site. > Understand that my comments are just some "common sense with a little bit of physics" estimates, not direct knowledge of how best to shield laptops. I worked inside a Faraday cage for several months--a cube about 12 feet on a side made up of two layers of fine copper mesh separated by about 2 inches. We used ordinary radios to check the seal. We entered the room with the radio on, closed the copper-gasketed door and then checked the AM and FM bands with the volume cranked up. If all was well, we didn't even get "static," just the characteristic internal/thermal/Johnson noise of the radio circuitry. (We were looking for signals from a Josephson junction in SQUID (superconducting quantum-interferometric device) that were very, very weak compared to ambient radio noise levels. We used a Princeton Applied Research 124 lock-in amplifier and a boxcar amplifier. I surmise that the effective shielding was very good. This was in 1972-3.) Later, at Intel, a lab right next to mine had a Faraday cage around it. Anyway, were I to try to shield a laptop I'd start with microwave leakage meters, a couple of t.v.s and radio (of different types and bands), and then I'd start recording signal levels of various sorts as different shielding layers and types were applied to the laptop(s). Simple lab stuff. I'd do this in preference to worrying about what some 1978 government docs had to say about the subject. TEMPEST the specs are probably a mixture of "RF shielding" tips and standards, and a mix of Van Eck radiation tuner designs. >We are working on our desktop model with a manufacturer >who supplies RF-protected glass for government and industry >rooms as well as for entire buildings. We figure that if we can >make a workable model, we'll be able to use to demonstrate >to our clients why TEMPEST protection is needed and how it >can be accomplished in an elegant design manner, paralleling >demonstrations used by the glass manufacturer to substantiate >claims for his products. Suggestion: Read the client's laptop when he's visiting. Then show him your stuff. (This means you've built a working Van Eck decoder, which may be too much to expect, per the above about concentrating on blocking the RF.) > >One of the many things that keeps techies from getting the public's >money is being unable to convince the buyer that the invention >is truly desirable. Thus comes the marketer, who has skills of >invention of another sort to charm the skeptical consumer that >this baby has got to be a part of his/her life -- like fancy homes, >medical care, insurance cars, clothing, foods, weapons, bibles, >and, above all, national security. Look, let me put this bluntly: VERY FEW PEOPLE CARE ABOUT SECURITY. Most businessmen are not even using PGP. Why will any of them pay a lot of extra money for something that makes their laptops look like gargoyles or pieces of shit? (This is for the travelling businessmen threat model. The corporate network threat model is even more problematic, as it means the corporation needs to TEMPEST-protect some large fraction of their desktop machines, with any unprotected machines being the weak links. I don't understand which threat model you're concentrating on, though.) And your next paragraphs tell me you have even less chance of sellling your product to corporate America: >So a mongerer's brew is needed to peddle these inessentials, >composed of seriousness, humor, terror, lies and pretended >guilelessness, the practices of anyone doing well or doing badly, > >indeed, humans going about whatever they do to fill up the void. >BTW, the best technology is nearly always going to be classified, >with sky high prices paid for by gullible citizens to calm their >manufactured terrors (the religion model, once churches and temples >now weapons and satellites; once the priest/architect hustle, now >that of the the NatSec wonk/scientist), so the commercial market is >only going to offer less than the best, the declassified waste products, >while selling it as "The Best." ?????? Is this a diagnosed medical condition, like Tourette's? You start out communicating reasonably clearly, then, as usual, trail off into this gobbledegook. Pynchon's Syndrome? --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From die at die.com Sun Nov 1 13:14:26 1998 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 05:14:26 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19981101152627.C29091@die.com> On Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 09:53:37AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > > Anyway, were I to try to shield a laptop I'd start with microwave leakage > meters, a couple of t.v.s and radio (of different types and bands), and > then I'd start recording signal levels of various sorts as different > shielding layers and types were applied to the laptop(s). Simple lab stuff. > As someone who has actually spent hellish weeks working to suppress the RF emissions of some commericial network gear I designed - to make it pass FCC B and VDE certification - let me say this is a black art and no fun. There are sophisticated electromagnetics programs that can sometimes succeed in modeling the radiation from a computer system, but they are very expensive and inputting all the required information is painful or downright impossible (data just not available or in a usable format), so this nasty job usually gets done seat of the pants style using rules of thumb and educated guesses and hard won experiance and lots of trial and error. The job consists of attaching lossy ferrite beads, copper tape and other RF and common mode current supressing devices, shielding plastic packages with spray metallic coatings, adding screws and other fasteners to bond stuff together better, changing grounding around within the box to put RF currents in places they don't get to the outside of the package, use of ICs that switch more softly, adding filters to connectors for external cables, changing layout of PC boards to better shield hot traces, changing the shape of the metal chassis to act as a better shield and ground plane and so forth. And unless one has access to the best modeling programs, predicting exactly what a given change will do is a really obscure art... Nobody does this using ordinary radios and TVs, the standard tool is a broadband spectrum analyzer or special EMC receiver with quasipeak filters and special calibrated wideband dipole antennas that have known gain and pattern characteristics. Isolating of radiating sites is often done with near field probes or sniffers attached to the spectrum analyzer that allow hot spots to be tracked to within a few cm. Often in order to get enough sensitivity one also needs special preamps, and a RF quiet site where signals from the DUT aren't drowned out by pagers and cellphones and emissions from nearby computers. A good bit of this work is done way out in the country under non-metallic fiberglass buildings that don't create reflections that confuse the measurements. And conducted as opposed to radiated noise is measured with special power line filters and cable filters... The magic of the NSA TEMPEST specs lies in exactly how much certain emissions must be suppressed to lie below useful detectablity thresholds at some reasonable distance. And much of the classified trickery resides in exactly what sorts of things have been shown to carry useable information and at what field strength that information can be extracted and under what conditions it is not usable. And because of the repetitious nature of many information bearing spurious emanations, there is some signficant emphasis on corellation and averaging out noise techniques... -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Sun Nov 1 13:38:40 1998 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 05:38:40 +0800 Subject: info PGP from France In-Reply-To: <199811011544.QAA25390@replay.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Anonymous wrote: > > > The PGP 6.0 Manual is available in french > > Y'know, I have yet to see a rational (non-marketing-speak) explanation > of the advantages of switching to PGP 6.0... You should read Cypherpunks more regularly. This is what I posted in the past: Quick PGP 6 eval =============== Long desired features: o Designated revokers (If you are incapacitated/incarcerated). o Secret shared keys (A must for corporate root keys). Gimmick: o You can attach a photo to your key. Still not there: o Ability to revoke individual user ID's on a key. -- Lucky Green PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. From newscaster at hampton.net Mon Nov 2 06:31:15 1998 From: newscaster at hampton.net (newscaster at hampton.net) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:31:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811021431.GAA20705@toad.com> 11/02/98 Y2K Solution! 8 Pine Circle Dr., Silicon Valley, Calif. USA OTC Company "TCFG" 21 st. Century Frontier Group has through several members of their administrative research department leaked vital information about their companies efforts. Everyone was tight lipped and interviews were refused, and through un-named sources we have learned that the technology and software solution are in the process of being patented! In over 1640 trials, using various data systems the use of the new technology and software solved the Y2K problem 100% of the time. This small publicly traded company "TCFG" which is just 3 years old is through various sources now negotiating with the "Big Boys"! "TCFG" the letters to look for... From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 1 14:57:53 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:57:53 +0800 Subject: Kong Re: Using a password as a private key. In-Reply-To: <199810291821.TAA03804@replay.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981101134444.008adae0@idiom.com> (James - bug report below.) At 07:21 PM 10/29/98 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >What happens if you create another key which signs an existing message, >as was illustrated here recently in the case of Toto's key. Can you >convince Kong that you are the same person who sent the earlier message? No, you can't. I've got some sample Kong documents below. (Be sure to get the US version of Kong from http://catalog.com/jamesd/kong/ rather than the somewhat older version from replay (which you get if you tell James's page you're not a US/Canadian citizen. Some UnAmerican should hack their way through James's protection and update replay's version.)) If you check the signature on a document identical to one you've already got stored, it'll tell you about it, and list all the usernames that have signed that document. When you try to store a second key with the same name as an existing key, it'll tell you that they're different, and let you add a note to the new one. (Unfortunately, it doesn't also let you add a note to the first one; a nice feature change would be to always ask for notation when receiving a new key.) (It's a bit hard to test on one machine, since you tend to step over yourself in the process, but it should work fine in a clean environment, and Kong is very tolerant of having its Kong.mdb file blown away and doesn't even mind some editing using MS Access, though YMMV.) Signed by one key calling itself t3 - note the +Q in the first line -- It's a fnord! Run for your life! --digsig t3 +Q+XF9EiiOOGFa6rYr5QtU2My14/KyO01DHLikYDVv Fy1GfdEmmV07XfX9R3HEOc/BA+ajNa8/MRqDBhE1 4eLHEngilBC2g81hloGGQFmOYd35vQEHKGtBcb4F9 Signed by a different key calling itself t3 - note the H9 in the first line -- It's a different fnord! --digsig t3 H9/V3rBrv7Ha3g0Z1/ywvbHimgezshgcTzSYJxbS4z nCRf3S7brCpkLPzUD+dSFcErPNB+SdrF0q46TZnH 4YHfVOu6q+51iKrRc3ru63qk1wWCR2uR3wCALQRjs Same document as before, signed by the H9 t3 -- It's a fnord! Run for your life! --digsig t3 H9/V3rBrv7Ha3g0Z1/ywvbHimgezshgcTzSYJxbS4z z662iY5op2nMkXrI7nP4A5ehgvaoB5+q5daHbHgl 4NmZf3tZdVcZObpUmovyAeDBMZr1W9t5lDICMJc8b Kong lets you sign a document in different modes - in one mode, the document can't be modified after signing, and in other modes you can change whitespace or linebreaks, making it more tolerant of different email environments. -- This message didn't have any line breaks, and it's in Text mode. --digsig t3 H9/V3rBrv7Ha3g0Z1/ywvbHimgezshgcTzSYJxbS4z aAGTQyJ92R6XeoH7ZTepQ0f79xKddgm+bsIfLckn 4+WLznhaXWAf7fX0yay4Ajq6Bg+AGQo0T8r8aWbJ2 -- This message didn't have any line breaks, and it's in Strict mode, so this should fail. --digsig t3 H9/V3rBrv7Ha3g0Z1/ywvbHimgezshgcTzSYJxbS4z /6YbckVZQdSNbu4DSbrIjXRmu2wU8IiiXP3LnyUn 2I/gQ5Uq5+42xQYfLxCbDM+YwowNgkBFXlfPvfIYK By the way, you don't want to hit the "view" button after checking this one - you'll get Run-Time Error 3021 - No current Record and then Kong dies. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 1 14:57:53 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:57:53 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: <199810312353.SAA23037@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981101142536.008aee30@idiom.com> At 08:19 PM 10/31/98 -0800, Tim May wrote: >At 3:44 PM -0800 10/31/98, John Young wrote: > > Not to beat an NDA horse but while we're waiting for NSA to > > process our FOIA request for TEMPEST docs, are there > > products available to shield a desktop box, or better, a laptop? >I haven't been following this FOIA request for TEMPEST docs. It seems >pointless, for several reasons: >1. No doubt a lot of stuff will be classified, and FOIA can't break >classification, generally. Yup. Most of it's SECRET COMSEC or CONFIDENTIAL COMSEC. The parts I'm aware of cover making equipment not radiate, blocking radiation that does occur, and making sure signals don't leak between the red and black sides. There's presumably much more secret documentation at NSA about how to spy on stuff, and there's no way you'll get any of that. >2. The physics is what's important, not TEMPEST specs on specific pieces >of equipment the government may be using, etc. That too. TEMPEST, like other security problems, depends a lot on your threat models - you need a lot quieter equipment if there's an NSA Antenna Van parked in your driveway than if you're out in an empty field with nobody around for miles. What the equipment specs tell you is what the military thinks is adequate protection for typical threat environments, such as defense contractor office buildings or low-tech battlefields. The last time I checked, which was 8-10 years ago, there was a lot of TEMPEST-certified equipment on the market, though many of the vendors would only sell to the government and businesses working on TEMPEST-requiring government contracts. The main things on the market back then were - Room/building enclosure technology, so you could put lots of regular computer equipment in a big shielded room. This includes heavy-duty filtering of power supplies; our equipment was quite happy with it's nice clean power feeds. - Shielded minicomputers - basically stuck in rack-sized versions of room enclosures, with fiber-optic comm lines or shielded cables. - Quiet PCs, which generally had heavier metal cases, shielded cables, rather heavy keyboards, and lots of shielding in the monitors. They tended to cost about $5000 more than the equivalent non-TEMPEST PC. I don't know how the market is today, but it's probably a LOT more work to quiet and/or shield a 400MHz Pentium2 than a 4.77Mhz 8086 - higher frequency signals have shorter wavelengths, so they can leak through smaller holes, and the newer Pentiums probably put out a lot more energy above 3GHz than 8086s did, which means that centimeter-long cracks can leak signals. At the time, the rule of thumb for room shielding was that you wanted 100dB attenuation; the actual specs were more complex than that, and presumably classified. We did our routine measurements using a 450MHz transmitter, which would let us find any leaks that evolved from wear&tear on our doors or wiring mistakes on our comm or power gear (like forgetting to screw some lid on tight enough), but the TEMPEST contractors did the official complex measurements. This was a significant change from Vietnam-era shielding, which was typically copper mesh that provided 60dB attenuation Just using a regular laptop isn't enough; I've seen laptops transmit recognizable images to a television (though I was probably using AC power rather than batteries, and may or may not have had the display mode set to LCD-and-monitor.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 1 15:34:48 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 07:34:48 +0800 Subject: H-WEB: De Long on Scott, Planning & Hayek Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:37:43 EST Reply-To: Hayek Related Research Sender: Hayek Related Research From: Hayek-L List Host Subject: H-WEB: De Long on Scott, Planning & Hayek To: HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU Status: U >> Hayek On The Web << -- Modernism / Government Planning J. Bradford De Long, "Not Seeing One's Intellectual Parents" On the Web at: http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Econ_Articles/Reviews/Seeing_Like_a_State.html >From the review: "There is a lot that is excellent in James Scott's _Seeing Like a State_. It begins with a romp through eighteenth- and nineteenth-century German forestry--and the failure of the foresters to understand the ecology of the forests that they were trying to manage. It continues with a brief digression on how states tried to gain control of their populations through maps, boulevards, and names. These are prequels to a vicious and effective critique of what Scott calls "high modernism": the belief that the planner--whether Le Corbusier designing a city, Vladimir Lenin designing a planned economy, or Julius Nyerere "villagizing" the people of Tanzania--knows best, and can move humans and their lives around on as if on a chessboard to create utopia. Then the focus appears to waiver. There is a chapter on agriculture in developing economies that characterizes agricultural extension efforts from the first to the third world as analogous to Lenin's nationalization of industry, or Nyerere's forced resettlement of Tanzanians. But the targets -- the agricultural extenders who dismiss established practices -- lose solidity and become shadows. They are no longer living, breathing, powerful rulers,; instead they are the "credo of American agriculture," the "catechism of high- modernist agriculture," the "high-modernist aesthetic and ideology of most colonial trained agronomists and their Western-trained successors" -- truly straw men. The conclusion is a call for social systems that recognize the importance of what Scott calls "metis": a Greek word for the practical knowledge that a skilled and experienced worker has of his craft. Most such practical knowledge cannot be easily summarized and simple rules, and much of it remains implicit: the devil is in the details. T he key fault of "high modernism," as Scott understands it, is its belief that details don't matter -- that planners can decree from on high, people obey, and utopia result. Well before the end of the book an economist is struck by a strong sense of deja vu. Scott's declarations of the importance of the detailed practical knowledge possessed by the person-on-the-spot -- of how such knowledge cannot be transmitted up any hierarchy to those-in-charge in a way to do any good--of how the locus of decision-making must remain with those who have the craft to understand the situation--of how any system that functions at all must create and maintain a space in which there is sufficient flexibility for craftsmen to exercise their metis (even if the hierarchs of the system pretend not to notice this flexibility)--all of these strike an economist as very, very familiar. All of these seem familiar to economists because they are the points made by Ludwig von Mises (1920) and Friedrich Hayek (1937) and the other Austrian economists in their pre-World War II debate with socialists over the possibility of central planning. Hayek's adversaries--Oskar Lange and company--argued that a market system had to be inferior to a centrally-planned system: at the very least, a centrally-planned economy could set up internal decision-making procedures that would mimic the market, and the central planners could also adjust things to increase social welfare and account for external effects in a way that a market system could never do. Hayek, in response, argued that the functionaries of a central-planning board could never succeed, because they could never create both the incentives and the flexibility for the people-on-the-spot to exercise what Scott calls metis. Today all economists--even those who are very hostile to Hayek's other arguments (that government regulation of the money supply lies at the root of the business cycle, that political attempts to reduce inequalities in the distribution of income lead to totalitarianism, that the competitive market is the "natural spontaneous order" of human society) -- agree that Hayek and company hit this particular nail squarely on the head. Looking back at the seventy-year trajectory of Communism, it seems very clear that Hayek (and Scott) are right: that its principal flaw is its attempt to concentrate knowledge, authority, and decision-making power at the center rather than pushing the power to act, the freedom to do so, and the incentive to act productively out to the periphery where the people-on-the-spot have the local knowledge to act effectively. In short, by the end of his book James Scott has argued himself into the intellectual positions adopted by Friedrich Hayek back before World War II. Yet throughout the book Scott appears to be ignorant that the intellectual terrain which he has reached has already been well-explored. This is quite distressing ... " J. Bradford De Long, "Not Seeing One's Intellectual Parents". Review of James Scott (1998), _Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed_. (New Haven: Yale University Press). 7/4/1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- References Peter Boettke (1990), The Political Economy of Soviet Socialism (Boston: Kluwer Academic Publishers: 0792391004). Friedrich Hayek, ed. (1935), Collectivist Economic Planning: Critical Studies on the Possibility of Socialism (London: Routledge: 0678007659). Friedrich Hayek (1937), "Economics and Knowledge," Economica 4, pp. 33-54. Friedrich Hayek (1945), "The Use of Knowledge in Society," American Economic Review 35, pp. 519-30. Frank Knight (1936), "The Place of Marginal Economics in a Collectivist System," American Economic Review 26:2, pp. 255-6. Abba Lerner (1934), "Economic Theory and Socialist Economy," Review of Economic Studies 2, pp. 51-61. James Scott (1998), Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed (New Haven: Yale University Press: 0300070160). Ludwig von Mises (1920), "Die Wirtschaftsrechnung im sozialistischen Gemeinwesen," Archiv fur Sozialwissenschaften und Sozialpolitik 47:1, pp. 86-121." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Professor of Economics J. Bradford De Long, 601 Evans Hall, #3880 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-3880 (510) 643-4027 phone (510) 642-6615 fax delong at econ.berkeley.edu http://econ161.berkeley.edu/ Hayek On The Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bettyrubble at 3253137429 Mon Nov 2 08:37:24 1998 From: bettyrubble at 3253137429 (bettyrubble at 3253137429) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:37:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Attract Women &/or Men (and keep them)! Message-ID: <199811021637.IAA21504@toad.com> BOOST YOUR SEX APPEAL AND CHANGE YOUR SOCIAL AND SEX LIFE FOREVER. SCIENCE AND NATURE'S SEXUAL SECRET WEAPON! 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From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 1 17:52:15 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:52:15 +0800 Subject: NOT the Orange Book Message-ID: <199811020104.UAA18004@camel8.mindspring.com> Paul Merrill, the author of "NOT the Orange Book," has provided a digital version of his "Guide to the Definition, Specification, Tasking, and Documentation for the Development of Secure Computer Systems -- Including Condensations of the Members of the Rainbow Series and Related Documents:" http://jya.com/ntob.htm (385K) Zipped: http://jya.com/ntob.zip (92K) This is Paul's 1992 manual prepared while working for DoD to evaluate and purchase secure computer systems, for ADP, C4I and weapons, and to compensate for the shortcomings of the official regulations. It's still widely used, Paul says, for the unending conflict between DoD, NSA, DIA and defense contractors about how to develop and assure computer security from lab rat pipedream to the warfighter's "wha's this piece of shit." Section IV, Case Studies, is a wonder at describing what to do when perfect design goes to hell in the field, and a pissed warrior who's comm's been compromised got a K-Bar sawing your apple, roaring "tech support, now!" From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Sun Nov 1 18:01:42 1998 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:01:42 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981101142536.008aee30@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: [...] > Just using a regular laptop isn't enough; I've seen laptops > transmit recognizable images to a television (though I was probably > using AC power rather than batteries, and may or may not have had > the display mode set to LCD-and-monitor.) Thanks for touching on the popuar myth that laptops radiate less than CRT's. Many laptops in fact radiate more compromising emissions than CRT's. Ross Anderson does his van Eck demos to undergrads using a laptop, because it works so much better than CRT's. -- Lucky Green PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. From PHM at sprynet.com Sun Nov 1 18:13:33 1998 From: PHM at sprynet.com (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:13:33 +0800 Subject: NOT the Orange Book In-Reply-To: <199811020104.UAA18004@camel8.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <363D3654.AA1AF05E@sprynet.com> While I perhaps would not have phrased things in quite the same colorful manner, John Youngs commentary here is substantially correct. The intent however was to hellp the developers develop systems that would preclude the need for K-Bars. PHM John Young wrote: > > Paul Merrill, the author of "NOT the Orange Book," has > provided a digital version of his "Guide to the Definition, > Specification, Tasking, and Documentation for the > Development of Secure Computer Systems -- Including > Condensations of the Members of the Rainbow Series > and Related Documents:" > > http://jya.com/ntob.htm (385K) > > Zipped: > > http://jya.com/ntob.zip (92K) > > This is Paul's 1992 manual prepared while working for > DoD to evaluate and purchase secure computer systems, > for ADP, C4I and weapons, and to compensate for the > shortcomings of the official regulations. > > It's still widely used, Paul says, for the unending conflict > between DoD, NSA, DIA and defense contractors about > how to develop and assure computer security from lab rat > pipedream to the warfighter's "wha's this piece of shit." > > Section IV, Case Studies, is a wonder at describing what > to do when perfect design goes to hell in the field, and a > pissed warrior who's comm's been compromised got a > K-Bar sawing your apple, roaring "tech support, now!" From apf2 at ctv.es Sun Nov 1 18:32:23 1998 From: apf2 at ctv.es (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:32:23 +0800 Subject: UK police chase crooks on CCTV (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981031204048.0088de80@pop.ctv.es> Snipped down to DCF's response... >My point is not that we shouldn't grab them it's that the "Human Rights >Community" is politically discriminatory and wouldn't think of going after >commies. > Since I live in Spain, I am privy to a side of the story that doesn't seem to get much air outside of Spain. (At least not that I've seen) In Spain, Spain is the protagonist in this issue--not the "Human Rights Community". It may be that they accept any help they may get from these folks, but the main push is from the families of Spanish citizens murdered by Pinochet. He not only killed his "countrymen" but also foreign nationals. Spain will try him for the murders of Spaniards NOT Argentineans, Brazilians, Americans, or any other nationality. >From inside Spain this issue doesn't seem nearly as global as the international community portrays it. I guess it's kind of like a certain African nation wanting to try a certain western hemisphere president for the deaths of some factory workers... Or perhaps in a small way a refutation of the international norm that protects rulers from the otherwise natural consequence of their actions. APF From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 1 18:39:27 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:39:27 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:26 PM -0800 11/1/98, Dave Emery wrote: >On Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 09:53:37AM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> >> Anyway, were I to try to shield a laptop I'd start with microwave leakage >> meters, a couple of t.v.s and radio (of different types and bands), and >> then I'd start recording signal levels of various sorts as different >> shielding layers and types were applied to the laptop(s). Simple lab stuff. >> > > As someone who has actually spent hellish weeks working to >suppress the RF emissions of some commericial network gear I designed - >to make it pass FCC B and VDE certification - let me say this is a black >art and no fun. There are sophisticated electromagnetics programs that >can sometimes succeed in modeling the radiation from a computer system, >but they are very expensive and inputting all the required information >is painful or downright impossible (data just not available or in a >usable format), so this nasty job usually gets done seat of the pants >style using rules of thumb and educated guesses and hard won experiance >and lots of trial and error. The job consists of attaching lossy >ferrite beads, copper tape and other RF and common mode current supressing >devices, shielding plastic packages with spray metallic coatings, adding ... All good points, but there's a big difference between trying to meet FCC emissions requirements for a commercial product that has to meet cost, weight, and cosmetic requirements (e.g., a plastic case!), and the scenario of making a TEMPEST-like box for a laptop. Ferrite beads and copper tape are a lot different from a sealed box made of 10-gauge copper sheet. > Nobody does this using ordinary radios and TVs, the standard >tool is a broadband spectrum analyzer or special EMC receiver with >quasipeak filters and special calibrated wideband dipole antennas that >have known gain and pattern characteristics. Isolating of radiating >sites is often done with near field probes or sniffers attached to the >spectrum analyzer that allow hot spots to be tracked to within a few cm. >Often in order to get enough sensitivity one also needs special >preamps, and a RF quiet site where signals from the DUT aren't drowned >out by pagers and cellphones and emissions from nearby computers. A >good bit of this work is done way out in the country under non-metallic >fiberglass buildings that don't create reflections that confuse the >measurements. And conducted as opposed to radiated noise is measured >with special power line filters and cable filters... Sure, but my point was that John Young should *at least* start with actual measurements, as opposed to putting most of the onus on a FOIA request to get TEMPEST docs declassified. If he can get spectrum analyzers and all that stuff, so much the better. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From nations at freeyellow.com Mon Nov 2 10:42:28 1998 From: nations at freeyellow.com (nations at freeyellow.com) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811021842.KAA22458@toad.com> 11/02/98 Y2K Solution! 8 Pine Circle Dr., Silicon Valley, Calif. USA OTC Company "TCFG" 21 st. Century Frontier Group has through several members of their administrative research department leaked vital information about their companies efforts. Everyone was tight lipped and interviews were refused, and through un-named sources we have learned that the technology and software solution are in the process of being patented! In over 1640 trials, using various data systems the use of the new technology and software solved the Y2K problem 100% of the time. This small publicly traded company "TCFG" which is just 3 years old is through various sources now negotiating with the "Big Boys"! "TCFG" the letters to look for..... From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net Sun Nov 1 19:02:16 1998 From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:02:16 +0800 Subject: Hacktivists Message-ID: <3cf9668e2576c48ac6aa50e9297fd2a3@anonymous> "HACKTIVISTS" SAY: "THE REVOLUTION WILL BE DIGITIZED" Two political activists in New York, of cofounders of the Electronic Disturbance Theater, are organizing "virtual sit-ins" and recruiting programmers to attack the Web sites of persons or organizations they believe responsible for oppression. "We see this as a form of electronic civil obedience," says Stefan Wray, one of the two leaders of this effort. National Information Protection Agency chief Michael Vatis says, "I wouldn't characterize vandalizing Web sites as cyber-terrorism, but the only responsible assumption we can make is that there's more going on that we don't know about." Some activists agree with that assessment, but for different reasons; they think such methods are unproductive because they will antagonize the general public. (New York Times 31 Oct 98) From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 2 07:15:39 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:15:39 +0800 Subject: Computers as instruments of liberation Message-ID: "Wired News" carried an article reporting on a plan to (somehow) spread computers around the world, blah blah, and quoting John Gage at Sun on how this would promote peace. A couple of paragraphs have Cypherpunks resonances" --begin excerpt-- Conference tackles ``techno-inequality'' By Judy DeMocker SAN FRANCISCO (Wired) - When US farmers can call their cows home individually using animal pagers, but the average teenager in Burkina Faso has never made a ..... Wiring developing nations could have some far-reaching consequences. One might be that computer-based communications would be used to keep the peace, according Net Day co-founder John Gage, who works by day as Sun Microsystems' chief scientist. When content from The New York Times can be translated into 30 Arab dialects, for example, or when a remote Rawandan village has access to more perspectives than the local magistrate, the Internet may become an instrument in preventing violence. ``The Web gives people access to other voices, and instant access to speaking about how the world really is,'' said Gage. ''If people can get that, maybe that band of villagers will think twice before going down the road and killing its neighbors.'' --end excerpt-- Fatuous nonsense. After all, those folks down the road may be taxing them, and may need killing. Or those folks may use computer networks to connect to others for the purposes of liberation. I see computer networks as promoting secessionism, freedom fighting, and resistance in general. The New World Order, the One Worlders, see this as "terrorism." Which is why strong encryption is needed. Which is why "they" oppose strong encryption. John Gage has a typically Fabian socialist view that somehow computerization will lead to an orderly, peaceful world. Me, I view networks as the key to retribution and justice. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 2 07:15:49 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:15:49 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981101142536.008aee30@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 5:32 PM -0800 11/1/98, Lucky Green wrote: >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: >[...] >> Just using a regular laptop isn't enough; I've seen laptops >> transmit recognizable images to a television (though I was probably >> using AC power rather than batteries, and may or may not have had >> the display mode set to LCD-and-monitor.) > >Thanks for touching on the popuar myth that laptops radiate less than >CRT's. Many laptops in fact radiate more compromising emissions than >CRT's. Ross Anderson does his van Eck demos to undergrads using a laptop, >because it works so much better than CRT's. But laptops are certainly smaller than desktops + monitors are, and can be run off of batteries. This makes laptops better candidates for a sealed box commercial product. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From brownrk1 at texaco.com Mon Nov 2 07:16:04 1998 From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:16:04 +0800 Subject: 4 Horseman not so bad.. Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F8553@MSX11002> I wrote: >>> but some peope are scared of > >>> drugs/paedophiles/terrorists etc, so thats the way in for the > jackboots. > >>> To oppose it we need to reduce fear. > Chip wrote: >>Thats the most interesting POV I've ever heard >>of in these discussions, seems like for the most part, >>we counter fear arguments with other fear arguments, >>Never saw this before. Bears more examination. Anon wrote: > Right. The new Happy Net campaign. > Druggies.. why, they're friendly enough to > be elected officials in such peaks of civilization as > D.C. and L.A. And the more successful recreational > pharmaceutical merchants are luxury-car and mobile > telecomm early adopters! London is full of spy cameras (mostly owned by banks and large corporations, pointing out from their windows and doors) Nobody much objects to the invasion of privacy. Why? Because lots of them are scared of the streets. If they knew the actual chance of getting robbed or beaten up they probably wouldn't be so scared. From jf_avon at citenet.net Mon Nov 2 07:23:11 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:23:11 +0800 Subject: [humor] Testing software Message-ID: <199811020422.XAA11460@cti06.citenet.net> A friend of mine sent me the following: We are in the process of testing the new piece of software we designed: > AGGRESSION TESTING: If this doesn't work, I'm gonna kill somebody. > > COMPRESSION TESTING: [] > > CONFESSION TESTING: Okay, Okay, I did program that bug. > > CONGRESSIONAL TESTING: Are you now, or have you ever been a bug? > > DEPRESSION TESTING: If this doesn't work, I'm gonna kill myself. > > EGRESSION TESTING: Uh-oh, a bug... I'm outta here. > > DIGRESSION TESTING: Well, it works, but can I tell you about my truck... > > EXPRESSION TESTING: #@%^&*!!!, a bug. > > OBSESSION TESTING: I'll find this bug if it's the last thing I do. > > OPPRESSION TESTING: Test this now! > > POISSON TESTING: Alors! Regardez le poisson! > > REPRESSION TESTING: It's not a bug, it's a feature. > > SECESSION TESTING: The bug is dead! Long live the bug! > > SUGGESTION TESTING: Well, it works but wouldn't it be better if... Added by JFA: DELUSION TESTING: Naahhhh, don't loose any time doing any testing, it'll work... Jean-Francois Avon, B.Sc. Physics, Montreal, Canada DePompadour, Soci�t� d'Importation Lt�e Limoges fine porcelain and french crystal JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers Instrumentation & control, LabView programming PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 2 07:23:37 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:23:37 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops Message-ID: At 12:26 PM -0800 11/1/98, Dave Emery wrote: >On Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 09:53:37AM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> >> Anyway, were I to try to shield a laptop I'd start with microwave leakage >> meters, a couple of t.v.s and radio (of different types and bands), and >> then I'd start recording signal levels of various sorts as different >> shielding layers and types were applied to the laptop(s). Simple lab stuff. >> > > As someone who has actually spent hellish weeks working to >suppress the RF emissions of some commericial network gear I designed - >to make it pass FCC B and VDE certification - let me say this is a black >art and no fun. There are sophisticated electromagnetics programs that >can sometimes succeed in modeling the radiation from a computer system, >but they are very expensive and inputting all the required information >is painful or downright impossible (data just not available or in a >usable format), so this nasty job usually gets done seat of the pants >style using rules of thumb and educated guesses and hard won experiance >and lots of trial and error. The job consists of attaching lossy >ferrite beads, copper tape and other RF and common mode current supressing >devices, shielding plastic packages with spray metallic coatings, adding ... All good points, but there's a big difference between trying to meet FCC emissions requirements for a commercial product that has to meet cost, weight, and cosmetic requirements (e.g., a plastic case!), and the scenario of making a TEMPEST-like box for a laptop. Ferrite beads and copper tape are a lot different from a sealed box made of 10-gauge copper sheet. > Nobody does this using ordinary radios and TVs, the standard >tool is a broadband spectrum analyzer or special EMC receiver with >quasipeak filters and special calibrated wideband dipole antennas that >have known gain and pattern characteristics. Isolating of radiating >sites is often done with near field probes or sniffers attached to the >spectrum analyzer that allow hot spots to be tracked to within a few cm. >Often in order to get enough sensitivity one also needs special >preamps, and a RF quiet site where signals from the DUT aren't drowned >out by pagers and cellphones and emissions from nearby computers. A >good bit of this work is done way out in the country under non-metallic >fiberglass buildings that don't create reflections that confuse the >measurements. And conducted as opposed to radiated noise is measured >with special power line filters and cable filters... Sure, but my point was that John Young should *at least* start with actual measurements, as opposed to putting most of the onus on a FOIA request to get TEMPEST docs declassified. If he can get spectrum analyzers and all that stuff, so much the better. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 2 07:33:23 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:33:23 +0800 Subject: No vulnerability known in SSH-1.2.26 Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:33:29 +0200 (EET) From: Tatu Ylonen To: ssh at clinet.fi, ssh-bugs at clinet.fi, bugtraq at netspace.org, info at rootshell.com, coderpunks at toad.com CC: "David A. Curry" , cert at cert.org, auscert at auscert.org.au Subject: No vulnerability known in SSH-1.2.26 Organization: SSH Communications Security, Finland Sender: owner-coderpunks at toad.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- As the original author of SSH I want to comment on the rumored vulnerabilities. I have personally looked into the claimed vulnerabilities, including the ones reported by IBM, and do not have any reason to assume that there would be any vulnerability in ssh-1.2.26. NO SUCH VULNERABILITY IS KNOWN. I repeat, I KNOW OF NO VULNERABILITY IN SSH-1.2.26. The IBM-ERS report on ssh vulnerability turned out to be false alert. They could not reproduce it after they recompiled their ssh and linux kernel. I have personally checked all places where ssh displays debugging messages, log messages, or otherwise uses functions like sprintf. I was unable to find any vulnerabilities. I have talked to people at both CERT and the IBM emergency response service and none of them seems to have any knowledge of any vulnerability in SSH. In summary, to my best knowledge, ssh-1.2.26 can be safely used. Please communicate this information to the relevant people. Brief history of events: - On October 28, the rootshell.com home page was defaced by hackers. After the host was brought up to date, their front page contained information that listed the services that had been active, and mentioned that entry may have been made with ssh. (Note that this does not by itself indicate anything; password or other authentication may have been obtained at the other end) - On October 29, a message about the rootshell case is posted to bugtraq and possibly other mailing lists. Many people took this as indication of a vulnerability in ssh. - We looked at the rootshell case, and found no cause for alarm, but decided to be watching. - On October 30, IBM sent an draft advisory reporting a buffer overflow vulnerability that could be used to gain root access to any host running ssh from anywhere on the Internet. The draft advisory was sent to at least CERT, FIRST, ssh-bugs, and a few other places. - On october 30, several major computer manufacturers and their offices around the world were advising their customers to follow the situation, and possibly disable ssh for now. Some CERTs around the world issued preliminary alerts to their most important sites. - I learn of the IBM advisory on October 31 at 2 AM. By 6 AM I've talked to both CERT and IBM Emergency Response Team, checked the code claimed to be at fault (finding no problem), and no-one seems to have any concrete information, and we conclude there is no cause for immediate alarm. - By November 1, the IBM researchers who found the vulnerability in the IBM draft advisory have been reached. One of them says he never saw an exploit, and the other first said he had an exploit and he was going to send it over shortly, and the next day he said that he could no longer reproduce the problem after recompiling ssh. He does not appear to have an exploit after all. - I've personally gone through all places where ssh1 passes information to sprintf, log_msg, or any other functions using sprintf. I found no security problems. I found one place where an argument to a format string was missing, but it is probably not exploitable, and one place where one byte less was allocated for a string than was used (only appears on Solaris). Neither of these have security consequences or are cause for alarm. - On November 1, the IBM announcement for which IBM has already issued a cancellation is widely distributed by rootshell through their announcement list. - Now at Morning November 2, I'm convinced (>99% sure) that both the rootshell issue and the IBM draft advisory were false alerts. We are also trying to track down the linux compilation problem that may have caused the false alert behind the IBM advisory. We will issue an announcement as soon as possible if real vulnerability is found. For more information, please keep tracking http://www.ssh.fi/sshprotocols2. Best regards, Tatu Ylonen - -- SSH Communications Security http://www.ssh.fi/ SSH IPSEC Toolkit http://www.ipsec.com/ Free Unix SSH http://www.ssh.fi/sshprotocols2/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNj1tbqkZxfGWH0o1AQEaLwP+LPhkCOGFs30gfbyjMLLMkNp03OOfpALJ uwqBvLPIntIWhHbjq1GF9D3hekyQ3PdiC+5SEBfFBj1xlAg1SPROJ2JV5d2QHuPm B39j3YuQSJT5j/QXN0nkbP7ll9UoPJ9eMWBQvd5Hgf//eAk6ccns4fUqensMypeR 9J3O2JQG6ow= =gesm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ptrei at securitydynamics.com Mon Nov 2 07:37:09 1998 From: ptrei at securitydynamics.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:37:09 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Lucky Green [SMTP:shamrock at cypherpunks.to] > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 8:33 PM > To: Bill Stewart > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: TEMPEST laptops > > On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: > [...] > > Just using a regular laptop isn't enough; I've seen laptops > > transmit recognizable images to a television (though I was probably > > using AC power rather than batteries, and may or may not have had > > the display mode set to LCD-and-monitor.) > > Thanks for touching on the popuar myth that laptops radiate less than > CRT's. Many laptops in fact radiate more compromising emissions than > CRT's. Ross Anderson does his van Eck demos to undergrads using a laptop, > because it works so much better than CRT's. > > -- Lucky Green PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. Nearly all laptops have a built-in video port, for connection to an external monitor. This is often poorly shielded (usually just a plastic plug). I'd be curious to know how much the radiation from this port could be attenuated by (1) a metal plug contacting the laptop's ground plane, and (2) removing all the video-port specific circuitry (major surgery for a laptop :-( ). Peter Trei From billp at nmol.com Mon Nov 2 08:01:25 1998 From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:01:25 +0800 Subject: orange book Message-ID: <363DCA2B.7C4E@nmol.com> Monday 11/2/98 7:55 AM PaulMerrill at ACM.Org I looked at the orange book at NOT the Orange Book - http://www.jya.com/ntob.htm NSA employee Tom White http://jya.com/nsasuit.txt got me a copy of I was told was THE NSA orange book for Sandia�s implementation of the NSA Benincasa nss/uso authentication algorithm.. The report I saw was concerned about implementation of cryptographic units. Things like shielding, power filtering, red-black boundaries, shift register compromising signals, some software guidelines,.... The soft-cover report was mostly hardware-oriented. What I see at jya.com is not the orange book Sandia was given. bill payne Title: Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms Jump to Forum Click Image to Jump to Next Article Go to Text Only Print Version Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms by William H. Payne This article requires special formatting. Please Click Here to Read Send This Article to a Friend: � Your Name: � Email Address of your Friend: � Your Email address: � � � � � Back to Home Page Quick Menu Visit the Button Shop Interactive Forum Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms E-mail the Editor � From PaulMerrill at acm.org Mon Nov 2 08:41:22 1998 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:41:22 +0800 Subject: orange book In-Reply-To: <363DCA2B.7C4E@nmol.com> Message-ID: <363DFD9C.C7C55E44@ACM.Org> No, like the title says, that is "NOT The Orange Book". Many (read all) of the people I worked with at WPAFB and the contractor sites were confused by the deluge that NCSC put out and called the Rainbow Series. In an attempt to give clues to the realities involved, I wrote the condensations and then wrapped a body around the skeleton formed by them. If one reads the information there, one will see that that is what it purports to be. NTOB is not a site, it is the title of the book (paper published with an orange cover, of course). ((I thought of using cyan (not.orange) but no one got the joke but the squints and precious few of them.) Of course, not having seen what Sandia was givn, I an only assume that DOD 5200.28-STD is what Sandia was given. It IS what was I was working from, along with the other toys put out by various governmental bodies. PHM bill payne wrote: > > Monday 11/2/98 7:55 AM > > PaulMerrill at ACM.Org > > I looked at the orange book at NOT the Orange Book - > http://www.jya.com/ntob.htm > > NSA employee Tom White http://jya.com/nsasuit.txt got me a copy of I was > told was > THE NSA orange book for Sandia�s implementation of the NSA Benincasa > nss/uso authentication algorithm.. > > The report I saw was concerned about implementation of cryptographic > units. > > Things like shielding, power filtering, red-black boundaries, shift > register > compromising signals, some software guidelines,.... The soft-cover > report was mostly > hardware-oriented. > > What I see at jya.com is not the orange book Sandia was given. > > bill payne <> From stuffed at stuffed.net Tue Nov 3 01:20:23 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED TUE NOV 3) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 01:20:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 2 11:03:37 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 03:03:37 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops Message-ID: <363DF8EB.24CF@lsil.com> > Understand that my comments are just some "common sense with a little > bit of physics" estimates, not direct knowledge of how best to shield > laptops. > I'd do this in preference to worrying about what some 1978 government > docs had to say about the subject. TEMPEST the specs are probably a > mixture of "RF shielding" tips and standards, and a mix of Van Eck > radiation tuner designs. > A long time ago I ran thermal measurement boards on a piece of equipment in liquid He under vacuum. Pretty icy. I used only standard components. My question is this - anyone know of any estimates of how weak a signal could be detected and actually rendered into useful information? The relevance of the low-T stuff is that it seems like a nice way to make low-noise receiving equipment. With an estimate of the capabilities of the receiver ( @exotic-lHe and commonplace-lN2 temps ) you could then address the emissions of the laptop with reasonable, quantitative target levels. Sort of reverse engineer the TEMPEST specs as it were. It would be nice to know what needed to be done to reduce emissions to the point that you could be fairly sure that an eavesdropper had to park on your doorstep to make his equipment work. > VERY FEW PEOPLE CARE ABOUT SECURITY. > Since they don't have anything to hide, why should they worry? Argh. ergo - if they're hiding something they are guilty of something. Bust the doors down boys. Mike From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 2 11:34:19 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 03:34:19 +0800 Subject: Techno Warfare In The 21st Century (fwd) Message-ID: <199811021837.MAA01250@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: >From consim-l-return-17237-ravage=ssz.com at net.uni-c.dk Mon Nov 2 12:19:37 1998 Mailing-List: contact consim-l-help at net.uni-c.dk; run by ezmlm Reply-To: consim-l at net.uni-c.dk Delivered-To: mailing list consim-l at net.uni-c.dk From: HBtLF at aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:20:21 EST To: consim-l at net.uni-c.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Techno Warfare In The 21st Century Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Dear consimers, When I'm not playing or designing wargames, I produce documentary programs for television. I'm considering whether to produce a documentary on the topic of technology and weaponry. Specifically, I want to look at how computer networks can be used in warfare. I grew up on SAC bases, so I've seen that side of it (computers controlling missile systems, for example). I'm more interested in how cyberwarfare might be conducted over the Internet to bring down an opponent's infrastructure (or play havoc with economic activity such as stock markets). James Adams' new book "Computers Are The Weapons and The Front Line Is Everywhere" is the type of material I am trying to find. I would urge any consimmers with suggestions to contact me at hbtlf at aol.com Thanks in advance. David Bolt From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 2 12:50:46 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:50:46 +0800 Subject: Sex, Terrorism and the NET Message-ID: <199811022004.MAA19140@always.got.net> I know there are some here who think Cypherpunks should cooperate with law enforcment and do "reach outs" to such folks...this was a theme at some past CFP Conferences, for example. I think most cops will use anyone they can. Meanwhile, this is what they're doing. Entrapment, infiltration, participation in chat rooms and news groups, and all the usual Red Squad stuff. --Tim > From: spranzint at aol.com (Spranz int) > Newsgroups: alt.security.terrorism > Subject: Sex, Terrorism and the NET > Lines: 52 > NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com > X-Admin: news at aol.com > Date: 2 Nov 1998 13:29:57 GMT > Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com > Message-ID: <19981102082957.03067.00002747 at ng117.aol.com> > Xref: Sn alt.security.terrorism:3219 > > > > Sex, Terrorism and the Internet: > Inservice Workshop for Law Enforcement > > > > > LEARN: Who is the best Internet provider for you. > Techniques for creating a screen persona > How to verify and use your on-line contacts to gather vital intelligence > The latest Hacking techniques > > EXAMINE: Live and On-line... > Pedophiles, Swap Groups and White Slavery > Neo Nazi and Militia Movements > Latin American Revolutionaries > Nationalist Groups with both local and global operations > Militant Islamic Movements > > PARTICIPATE IN: News groups and Chat Rooms > World wide Web Sites, Links and Search Engines > Hacking , Militia and Sex Trade Chatrooms around the globe > > DISCOVER : Web sites offering detailed information on: > procuring and using Nuclear, Chemical and Biological Agents > as well as satellite intelligence data . > How to get "expert" advice > How to procure black market items and conduct investigations on > the web > > Curriculum includes: > > Introduction to Cyberspace Hacking and Cracking > Sex and the Internet Student Explorations > Learning Investigative Tools Developing in house programs > Exploring NEWSGROUPS Monitoring and Identifying suspects > Terror Organizations Creating a web persona > > Fee: $ 50.00 includes class handouts and certificate > Program includes an optional two hour online practicum following the > presentation. > > FDLE Approved for Second Dollar Spending and Mandatory Retraining! > Location: Coral Springs Police Dept, Coral Springs FL > > Date: Friday 4 December 1999 / 0830 � 1230 (4 instruction hours) > To Register: Contact a Spranza Representative at: > POB 26047 Tamarac, FL 33320 > Voice: (954) 722 � 5811 email: Spranzint at aol.com fax: (954) 720 � 4472 > Visit our website: http://members.aol.com/spranzint/pubpage.htm for more info! From nobody at seclab.com Mon Nov 2 13:05:28 1998 From: nobody at seclab.com (DOOM Anonymous Untraceable User) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 05:05:28 +0800 Subject: Seeking CDSA source code reference implementation Message-ID: <199811022025.VAA06813@rogue.seclab.com> I am searching for a source code reference implementation of the CDSA V2.0 standard as published by the Open Group. I know that a freely available implementation has been released by IBM (MIT Jonah PKIX Freeware, can be downloaded from http://web.mit.edu/pfl) but this is legally accessible only for US citizen. I have tried to spot the CDSA source but have not found anything up to now. Has this software found its way outside the US yet? I'd like to put my fingers on it without actually breaking fed laws... Thanx. From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Mon Nov 2 13:11:45 1998 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 05:11:45 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <487987985c0f857e82f678740b802bd9@anonymous> Might as well include the laptop with the box, including an encrypted filesystem and some software and hardware booby trap features. Whitecap From xasper8d at lobo.net Mon Nov 2 14:38:00 1998 From: xasper8d at lobo.net (X) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:38:00 +0800 Subject: Sex, Terrorism and the NET In-Reply-To: <199811022004.MAA19140@always.got.net> Message-ID: <001601be06aa$1bf80a80$852580d0@ibm> Tim May wrote: ~> -----Original Message----- ~> From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net ~> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Tim May ~> Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 1:05 PM ~> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net ~> Subject: Sex, Terrorism and the NET ~> ~> I know there are some here who think Cypherpunks should ~> cooperate with law ~> enforcment and do "reach outs" to such folks...this was a theme at some ~> past CFP Conferences, for example. ~> ~> I think most cops will use anyone they can. Meanwhile, this is what ~> they're doing. ~> ~> Entrapment, infiltration, participation in chat rooms and news ~> groups, and ~> all the usual Red Squad stuff. ~> ~> --Tim Good points. How many of those who receive cpunx email are LEA? 10%? 15? 20? Let's all sneak out and see how long they keep the lights off before figuring out the party's empty! X From mgering at ecosystems.net Mon Nov 2 15:16:55 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 07:16:55 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone Alternative Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B226@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> > paradox of financial cryptography, and, more specifically, > digital bearer settlement, is not that it gives you privacy > and freedom (anarchy? :-)) Anarchy != privacy In fact to many people privacy is a very statist construct, as they clamor for more privacy regulations by government. The contradiction is government has a vested interest in preventing privacy from itself, and generally makes loud but ineffectual noise in creating privacy from others. There are many anarchic elements financial cryptography, such as: * That you can achieve greater privacy through cryptographic means instead of government means by limiting the information transfer via zero knowledge, blinding, cryptographic pseudonymity, etc. * That you can exchange money in ways that are secured cryptographically and settled instantly that do not rely on the government as observer/auditor/enforcer[/taxer]. * You can create private currencies that do not rely on government goodwill and stability to retain their value. * That you can enforce contracts via electronic mediation and reputation punishment in a way that does not rely on biometric ID and government mediation/enforcement. Therefore traditionally archical processes become anarchical (without state [involvement]). It is the *process*, not the result that is anarchic, and it is the process, not the result, that is cheaper. Cryptography (cpu-cycles) is cheaper than government, with a falling cost versus a rising one. Will all these free anarchical processes eventually result in an anarchic state? Maybe. But the economics of the processes is the prime mover, the politics of the result is a consequence. Matt From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 2 16:15:10 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:15:10 +0800 Subject: dbts: Lions and TEMPESTs and Black Helicopters (Oh, My!) In-Reply-To: <363DF8EB.24CF@lsil.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 1:24 PM -0500 on 11/2/98, Mr. Motyka vamps on Mr. May in cypherpunks: > > VERY FEW PEOPLE CARE ABOUT SECURITY. > > > Since they don't have anything to hide, why should they worry? Argh. > ergo - if they're hiding something they are guilty of something. Bust > the doors down boys. Naaawww.... It's not so bad as all that... Remember, fairly soon now, if not already, we'll be storing *lots* of encrypted data on our disks, not only in the form of encrypted, controlled-play software, or proprietary company information, or infotainment (however long *that* lasts), but also in the form of encrypted passwords, private keys, and, of course, digital bearer certificates ;-). In addition, every time you do a book-entry transaction, you're perforce (heh...) using an encrypted link with at least SSL, and, at some point, people will demand much cheaper and faster internet-level encryption ala IPSEC to move their money (and their other bits worth money) around. Or they'll be required to by their employers in various VPN/WAN systems. Or, frankly, they'll just do it without knowing it anyway, because their TCP/IP apps will be IPV6 (or something) compliant. Everyone here who does this stuff for a living knows that the amount of horsepower necessary to decrypt all those different kinds of encrypted stuff, even the weak stuff, is going to be positively prohibitive (instead of permitted? ;-)), since it all has different keys, lots of which are long gone. IPSEC keys, for instance, are positively disposable, and, if it's done right - -- which it will be, because nobody wants to lose *money*, after all -- the encrypted packets will originate at the client, and not the router, so all that "private doorbell" stuff is just a smokescreen for what is going to be superencrypted data anyway. And, of course, we all know now that KRAP / ne� Key Escrow / ne� GAK / ne� Key Recovery / ne� Clipper is logically, much less physically, impossible. Don't ask me, ask the likes of Diffie, and Rivest, and Schneier, et alia. All the "legislation" in the world ain't gonna change that, right? Digital Commerce is Financial Cryptography, folks. F=MA. It ain't just for physicists anymore... The black helicopters aren't flying over the hill any time soon, boys and girls. Why? Because, if they tried, soon enough, they couldn't afford the gas for a return visit. Their erstwhile tax revenue, like most money, being fungible and all, is, or soon will be, quite easy enough to bug out into the cyphersphere with. After all, who's to tell one encrypted blop of bits from another? "Awwwww, C'Monnnn. Niiiice taxpayer. Staaaaay. *Don't* go anywhere. Pleeeeease?" A cowardly lion indeed. Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 iQEVAwUBNj4wNcUCGwxmWcHhAQEsewf9GbZ2OxeczWZzeNAuBwBm+PlWvZAdOmml UYmik/U4s41x310HtXdPg2ixnUJ/i67rWXYGHeGeAZrbn0IYH69dM7l0qSROSHnM dDMLA18nZjIy1XKzcG0yrRfsbLKtfFpe3Y4SN8dHoTRKzzfoskhmQJWu9/2twVKi Y3gFgd5Qawu4a23jmMOGRJ1pLUpo9jjTu2qs8uA0Q42aeWcm4Zm1QhaK9/9FV9Sm FkbHTgzK6RwaLiKySkqf22KNsy6WLa9ypVLK03tMrJNgILqY2S3xxoM/2EOhf+FF 5yt16/bABw3YvS8WWp2PkmHMn1rxXgBy1iodioFI79Cf35Yu36/O4Q== =GPbv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:21:07 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:07 +0800 Subject: IP: Privacy: Dangers of security measures Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28378@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Privacy: Dangers of security measures Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:38:16 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Federal Computer Week http://www.fcw.com/pubs/fcw/1998/1026/web-epic-10-26-98.html OCTOBER 26, 1998 . . . 16:35 EST Privacy watchdog group warns about dangers of security measures BY HEATHER HARRELD (heather at fcw.com) The recommendations of a presidential commission for protecting the nation's critical computer systems -- many of which are being launched by various federal entities -- would expand government authority and lead to civil liberty violations, according to a report released today by a privacy think tank. The report, authored by the Electronic Privacy Information Center, asserts that the expanded role of the Defense Department and the FBI required to ward off perceived information warfare threats to the nation's critical infrastructures would infringe upon various civil liberties, such as freedom of speech, privacy protections and the Freedom of Information Act. Specifically, Wayne Madsen, senior fellow at EPIC and author of the report, noted that the National Security Agency and other intelligence agencies would have their roles expanded from collecting international intelligence data to focusing efforts on domestic computer security. Traditionally, the NSA has been prohibited from playing a role in the protection of unclassified computer security data. But because infrastructure protection involves working closely with the private-sector owners and operators of infrastructure, such as telecommunications companies and banks, this role would be expanded. The report from the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection supported the use of key-recovery encryption, a technology mechanism strongly supported by the NSA that would allow law enforcement officials to descramble encrypted data with a court order or other authorization. It also suggests that the federal government create new classifications for government information and provide federal agencies with expanded latitude for classifying information, according to Madsen. "The intelligence community...has had its sights set on restricting access to public information for years," Madsen said. "There's been a struggle between NSA and civilian agencies over who will be responsible for protecting unclassified information. NSA [in commission recommendations] will become the de facto information security czar." But Jeffrey Hunker, director of the Critical Infrastructure Assurance Office, which was created by President Clinton to carry out many of the recommendations in the commission's report, said his office places First Amendment and civil liberty concerns foremost in its work. "We are dealing with a new and evolving threat environment," Hunker said. "Discussions about civil liberties need to recognize the fact that there are new threats that pose real risks to Americans at home...and their way of life." Mail questions to webmaster at fcw.com Copyright 1998 FCW Government Technology Group ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:23:07 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:23:07 +0800 Subject: IP: [FP] R 141331Z-OCT-98 DNA SPECIMEN COLLECTION PROGRAM Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28399@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ScanThisNews" Subject: IP: [FP] R 141331Z-OCT-98 DNA SPECIMEN COLLECTION PROGRAM Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:59:51 -0600 To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com SCAN THIS NEWS 10/31/98 Forwarded message: -------------------------------- I am a government contractor and have had my problems with this enumeration demonization and now find that the alarms are rising. A close friend of mine, who is a government employee sent this copy of an unclassified message from the Commander of Naval Surface Pacific Command to all forces of the Pacific command. Undoubtedly, this is also true for the Atlantic Fleet as well as the rest of the military under the control of the Commander in Chief. I think Ayn Rand was correct when she said, "Justice vanished from the country when the gold coins vanished from the country's hands." It appears that sooner than not, we will "not be able to buy or sell except he that has the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let he that has understanding calculate the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man [His DNA?]; and his number is 666." [the helical make-up?] Revelations 13: 17 & 18. May God grant us the wisdom we all need for discernment in this matter. F E -------------------------------- Subject: R 141331Z-OCT-98 DNA SPECIMEN COLLECTION PROGRAM R 141331Z OCT 98 ZYB PSN 475808S32 FM COMNAVSURFPAC SAN DIEGO CA//N01M// TO NAVSURFPAC INFO RHHMHAH/CINCPACFLT PEARL HARBOR HI//N01M// BT UNCLAS //N01320//PASS TO MEDICAL DEPT REPRESENTATIVES MSGID/GENADMIN/N01M// SUBJ/DNA SPECIMEN COLLECTION PROGRAM// REF/A/RMG/COMNAVSURFPAC/101331Z/JUN98// REF/B/RMG/CINCLANTFLT/021630Z/JUN98// NARR/REF A IS READD MSG FROM BOTH CINCS REGARDING THE DNA SPECIMEN COLLECTION PROGRAM. REF B PROVIDED GUIDANCE ON HOW TO QUERY THE ARMED FORCES INSTITUTE OF PATHOLOGY (AFIP) DATABASE.// POC/A.C. ABAD, HMCM(SW)/CNSP/N01M2/-/TEL:(619)437-2326 /TEL:DSN 577-2326// RMKS/1. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO ALERT ALL COMNAVSURFPAC UNITS TO THE REQUIREMENT TO REPORT THE STATUS OF THEIR DNA SPECIMEN COLLECTION PROGRAM TO THE TYCOM. PER REFS A AND B, ALL UNITS ARE REQUESTED TO SUBMIT REPORTS OF COMPLETION OF DNA SPECIMEN COLLECTION TO CNSP NLT 31 OCT 98. ALL UNITS SHOULD HAVE 100 PERCENT [PAGE 02 RUEDMCA0441 UNCLAS] OF THEIR CREW REGISTERED IN THE ARMED FORCES REPOSITORY OF SPECIMEN SAMPLES FOR THE IDENTIFICATION OF REMAINS (AFRSSIR) AT AFIP. 2. FOR QUESTIONS OR CLARIFICATIONS, PLS CONTACT POC. // BT #0441 NNNN RTD:000-000/COPIES: ======================================================================= Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. ======================================================================= Reply to: ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:24:51 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:24:51 +0800 Subject: IP: Sen. Moynihan Warns of Y2K Catastrophe Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28355@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Sen. Moynihan Warns of Y2K Catastrophe Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 08:42:26 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: http://www.senate.gov/~y2k/statements/100798moynihan.html Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Senate Special Committee on the Year 2000 Technology Problem (Oct. 7). As we wind up the last Year 2000 (Y2K) hearing of this Congress, I would like to commend Senator Bennett and the Special Committee for its work in addressing the computer problem. The Committee has done a fine job in looking at all the aspects of society that the Y2K problem affects: the utilities industry, the heath sector, financial services, transportation, government, and businesses. The Committee should also be applauded for the role it played in formulating and passing S. 2392, The Year 2000 Information and Readiness Disclosure Act. As an original cosponsor of this piece of legislation, I am pleased to see that its enactment is soon at hand. The head of the President's Council on Y2K, John Koskinen, said that passing this bill is one of the most important things that we could do on the Y2K front. I agree. I say well done to the Committee for all of the work it has done in such a short amount of time. It was almost two and a half years ago that I sounded the alarm on the computer problem. On July 31, 1996, I sent President Clinton a letter expressing my views and concerns about Y2K. I warned him of the ``extreme negative economic consequences of the Y2K Time Bomb,'' and suggested that ``a presidential aide be appointed to take responsibility for assuring that all Federal Agencies, including the military, be Y2K compliant by January 1, 1999 [leaving a year for `testing'] and that all commercial and industrial firms doing business with the Federal government must also be compliant by that date.'' January 1, 1999 is quickly approaching. I believe that we have made progress in addressing the computer problem and that the ``Good Samaritan'' legislation will play a significant role in ameliorating this problem. But much work remains to be done. For the next 450 days we must continue to work on this problem with dedication and resolve. Historically, the fin de siecle has caused quite a stir. Until now, however, there has been little factual basis on which doomsayers and apocalyptic fear mongers could spread their gospel. After studying the potential impact of Y2K on the telecommunications industry, health care, economy, and other vital sectors of our lives, I would like to warn that we have cause for fear. For the failure to address the millennium bug could be catastrophic. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:25:15 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:25:15 +0800 Subject: IP: More clinics receive "anthrax" letters as authorities await results Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28388@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: More clinics receive "anthrax" letters as authorities await results Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 19:17:26 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Fox News - AP More clinics receive letters as authorities await results 8.00 p.m. ET (101 GMT) October 31, 1998 By Susanna Ray, Associated Press INDIANAPOLIS (AP) � Federal marshals stood watch Saturday over an abortion clinic that received a letter claiming, "You have just been exposed to anthrax.'' Authorities meanwhile awaited results of tests on the envelope's contents. The Planned Parenthood clinic was one of five clinics that received envelopes Friday containing a brown, powdery substance and threatening notes. The others were in the southern Indiana town of New Albany, Knoxville, Tenn., and two in Louisville, Ky. On Saturday, two other clinics � one in Wichita, Kan., and another in Louisville � reported receiving similar letters. Authorities said the letter to the Wichita clinic was postmarked in Cincinnati, just like the ones sent to at least four other clinics. Pat Bashore of the FBI in Louisville said he did not know the origin of two of the Louisville letters. In Wichita, an employee called the fire department, which contacted federal authorities. FBI spokesman Jeff Lanza said the envelope wasn't opened but "looking at it through backlighting, it doesn't appear to contain anything at all.'' The clinic was evacuated for about 45 minutes. Friday's incident at the Indianapolis clinic prompted police to decontaminate 31 people who were scrubbed down and treated with antibiotics at hospitals as a precaution. Two people from a Louisville clinic also were treated at the hospital Friday. Preliminary tests on the contents of the New Albany envelope and one from Louisville were negative for anthrax, a strain of bacteria that can be used as a biological weapon. Contents of a letter sent to the Knoxville Reproductive Health Center will be sent to a lab for testing, the FBI said. Results of testing in the Indianapolis case had not been completed Saturday, FBI agent Doug Garrison said. Michael Smith, who lives in an apartment near the Indianapolis clinic, said he's opposed to abortion, but now is scared about what anti-abortion extremists might do next. "You're automatically wondering what chemicals went off. I mean, my window's open. ... I feel endangered,'' he said. Meanwhile, a Newsweek poll found that 60 percent of Americans believe the anti-abortion movement has to share at least some of the blame for recent violence against abortion provides. Fears of violent attacks against abortion providers were heightened Oct. 23 when a sniper fatally shot a doctor who performs abortions near Buffalo. Thirty-three percent of those responding said the anti-abortion movement is indirectly connected to the violence because of statements that encourage violence. Another 27 percent believed there is a more direct connection, the Newsweek poll said. The survey also found that 51 percent of Americans sympathize with abortion-rights efforts and 39 percent back the anti-abortion effort. The poll appears in the Nov. 9 issue of the magazine, which is on newsstands Monday. Its margin of error is plus or minus 4 percentage points. � 1998 Associated Press. All rights reserved. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:25:25 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:25:25 +0800 Subject: IP: FBI: Anthrax Threat Likely a Hoax Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28366@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: FBI: Anthrax Threat Likely a Hoax Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:35:33 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/digest/nat004.htm FBI: Anthrax Threat to Abortion Clinics Likely a Hoax By John Kelly Associated Press Writer Friday, October 30, 1998; 9:20 p.m. EST INDIANAPOLIS - Four abortion clinics in three states received letters Friday claiming to contain deadly anthrax bacteria, prompting the evacuation of the Indianapolis clinic and sending at least 33 people to hospitals, authorities said. Clinics in New Albany, Louisville, Ky., and Knoxville, Tenn., also received letters, Planned Parenthood and federal officials said. All of the letters bore Cincinnati postmarks. The clinic in New Albany, across the river from Louisville, was not evacuated because the letter was not opened, authorities said. A letter sent to a clinic in Bloomington later was determined to contain business correspondence and was not a threat, local police said. An employee of the Louisville clinic and the mail carrier who delivered that letter were taken to the University of Louisville Hospital, treated and released. "The initial investigation has clearly indicated that the substance is unlikely to be anthrax," FBI agent Carl Christiansen said. The FBI is investigating a similar threat at the Knoxville Reproductive Health Center in Knoxville, Tenn., agent Scott Nowinski said. The letter appeared to be a hoax, he said. No one at the Indianapolis clinic complained of any symptoms after an employee opened the letter Friday afternoon. Officials said is was unclear whether the letter actually contained anthrax, a strain of bacteria that can be used as a biological weapon. "We do not know that. But we are handling it as if it were," police Maj. Tim Horty said. The 31 people, who included seven clinic workers, two firefighters, two police officers and the postal carrier who delivered the letter, were stripped, washed with soap and water and dressed in hospital scrubs inside a blue tent in a strip mall parking lot before being taken to a local hospital. They were given antibiotics as a preventive measure. All were expected to be released by Friday night. "No one is sick, no one is experiencing pain," Horty said. Horty said a clinic employee called police about 1 p.m. to report a threatening letter. Inside a small, white envelope was a brown powdery substance and a note saying "you have just been exposed to anthrax." Administrators isolated the envelope in the clinic, but didn't say where or how, Horty said. Police evacuated all other stores in the strip mall and immediately quarantined the clinic. The people exposed to the letter are being taken to Wishard, Methodist and Community hospitals for observation, and are not in any danger, fire Lt. Jack Cassaday said. The hospitals and 911 have been inundated by calls from people in the area who think they might have been exposed, Cassaday said. "No one who was not inside the clinic could have possibly been exposed," he said. Anthrax is a disease normally associated with animals such as sheep or goats. Its spores can infect people who breathe them in. It can kill if left untreated, but antibiotics can usually cure the disease. Authorities in Indianapolis were in the process of having the powder analyzed and hope to know by Monday whether it is anthrax, said Virginia A. Caine, Marion County Health Department director. If the powder is confirmed to be anthrax, those exposed will have to take antibiotics for four weeks, and possibly the anthrax vaccine as well, she said. The letters were received a week after abortion provider Dr. Barnett Slepian, 52, was shot and killed by a sniper in his home in suburban Buffalo, N.Y. "We receive threats from time to time, but nothing very substantial. The employees here did the appropriate thing. This did not look suspicious until they opened it," said Delbert Culp, president of Planned Parenthood of Central and Southern Indiana. "These are just political extremists who call themselves pro-life. This is not pro-life." Ann Minnis of Haubstadt, Ind., president of Gibson County Right to Life, an anti-abortion group, said she has been with the organization for 25 years and has "never met anyone who would do such a thing. "We're about saving lives, not about anything like that (the anthrax threats)," she said. "Heavens, it's horrible." � Copyright 1998 The Associated Press ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:26:21 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:26:21 +0800 Subject: IP: Anthrax Scare Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28334@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Anthrax Scare Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:39:22 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Indianapolis Star News http://starnews.com/news/citystate/98/oct/1030SN_anthrax.html Letter claims it was contaminated with Anthrax 29 people are contained, decontaminated at Planned Parenthood clinic By Stephen Beaven Indianapolis Star/News INDIANAPOLIS (Oct. 30, 1998) -- At least 29 people were treated Friday afternoon for possible exposure to the deadly biological toxin Anthrax at a Planned Parenthood clinic at East 21st Street and Ritter Avenue. The FBI confirmed late Friday afternoon that clinics in New Albany and Bloomington received similar threats. The Planned Parenthood eastside clinic received a letter shortly after 1 p.m. with a simple message -- you have been exposed to Anthrax, according to the Indianapolis Fire Department. Police and health and safety workers swooped in soon after to quarantine the people in the building. At least a dozen professionals from the fire department's hazardous materials team entered the building in white decontamination suits with surgical masks and safety glasses to treat those inside. After being scrubbed down, the people in the clinic were being taken to area hospitals late Friday afternoon. "The last thing we want to do is contaminate a hospital," said one police official on the scene. "No one is showing symptoms at this time, but they are scared and upset." A worker at the clinic opened a plain beige envelope with a Cincinnati postmark Friday afternoon. Inside there was a simple letter with the threat. It was unclear if the letter actually contained Anthrax, which is generally used in biological warfare and terrorism. But even if it was a hoax, it looked real, according to IFD Lt. Jack Cassaday. "It looked like Anthrax so whoever sent it knew enough to package it the right way," he said. It has not been confirmed that the letter indeed was contaminated with Anthrax. The substance was being tested at a local lab, Cassaday added. The bacteria Anthrax has flu-like symptoms which do not surface until one to six days. The symptoms are high fever, chest pains and hemmoraging. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:28:36 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:28:36 +0800 Subject: IP: Farah: The cops are out of control Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28323@netcom13.netcom.com> From: E Pluribus Unum Subject: IP: Farah: The cops are out of control Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:39:20 -0500 To: E Pluribus Unum Email Distribution Network The cops are out of control Until very recently, as a law-abiding person, the presence of police generally gave me a feeling of security, well-being, order. Not any more. I confess that, lately, when I see a cop in my rear-view mirror, I get a very uneasy feeling. Maybe it's the horror stories we're hearing. Maybe it's the way local and state police have become little more than appendages of the federal law-enforcement apparatus. Maybe it's the fact that so many cops have taken sides against the Constitution and the rights of the people in the name of more efficient crime-prevention. But the recent incidents in Oklahoma, where police shot an unarmed mother holding her child in her home, in Virginia, where a SWAT team killed a watchman guarding a dice game at an after-hours club and in California, where a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms raid on a gun shop resulted in the death of the shopkeeper, provide some hard evidence that police in America may be getting out of control I think also about columnist Geoff Metcalf's anecdote about the law-abiding man arrested and jailed for having in his possession a tire iron, which was classified as a deadly weapon. Had he brandished it? No. Had he threatened anyone? No. Had the California Highway Patrol officer awakened on the wrong side of her bed that morning? Maybe. But when you start putting all these incidents together, with the backdrop of the massacre in Waco, Texas, and the unnecessary shootout at Ruby Ridge, it's no wonder Americans like me are beginning to worry about the possibilities of an emerging police state. "Oh, it couldn't happen here," some retort. "America is different. The cops are our friends." That may have been true through most of our history. But there's one big difference today. The government no longer trusts the people. There is a move to disarm the populace and to entrust our safety solely to professional law enforcement. This is a pattern we've seen in other authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. It's a prerequisite to the formation of a police state. It's what our Founding Fathers warned us about. It's why we have a Second Amendment. One of the other problems we face in America today is the increasing number of laws on the books designed to turn virtually everyone into a law-breaker. It's easier for cops today to fill their quota of arrests and citations by targeting non-threatening, non-violent citizens than it is actually chasing down violent criminals. Too often, today's cops make no distinction between hardened, professional criminals, and people who may or may not be in technical violation of the law -- perhaps even an unjust, unconstitutional law. But the biggest danger we face is the federalization and militarization of all law enforcement. Inter-agency task forces, bringing together local and state police with federal agents are now the rule of the day. Federal agencies bribe local cops with funding, equipment and training programs. America is rapidly becoming an "us vs. them" society -- with the cops and government on one side and the people on the other. Many of us don't feel the heat yet. But it's just a matter of time before we're all confronted with the harsh realities of the new emerging police state. One of these days -- and it may be sooner rather than later -- America is going to be confronted with a real domestic emergency. It's not a matter of if, but when. We've had precious few real domestic crises throughout our history, and Americans have become spoiled. Thus, we take our freedoms for granted. There are so many possibilities and excuses on the horizon -- Y2K, terrorism, the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction from rogue states as well as China and Russia. Will America respond to the next crisis in a way that preserves our civil rights and liberties? Or will we lose our tentative grasp on freedom -- giving up an illustrious tradition for the sake of security, safety, order? If we're to maintain any semblance of freedom in the worst of times, we must hold the government and police accountable in the best of times. A daily radio broadcast adaptation of Joseph Farah's commentaries can be heard at http://www.ktkz.co -- ****************************************************************** E Pluribus Unum The Central Ohio Patriot Group P.O. Box 791 Eventline/Voicemail: (614) 823-8499 Grove City, OH 43123 Meetings: Monday Evenings, 7:30pm, Ryan's Steakhouse 3635 W. Dublin-Granville Rd. (just East of Sawmill Rd.) http://www.infinet.com/~eplurib eplurib at infinet.com ****************************************************************** **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:29:33 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:29:33 +0800 Subject: IP: 18-year-old rebels against being numbered Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28344@netcom13.netcom.com> From: E Pluribus Unum Subject: IP: 18-year-old rebels against being numbered Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:43:27 -0500 To: E Pluribus Unum Email Distribution Network YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE ... 18-year-old rebels against being numbered Wins right to vote without Social Security registration By David M. Bresnahan Copyright 1998, WorldNetDaily.com LAS VEGAS, NV -- Even though government agencies tried their best to stop him, an 18-year-old will vote for the first time in the Nov. 3 election. Last July, Joshua Hansen, 18, went to register to vote. A few days later he received a letter in the mail from Kathryn Ferguson, registrar of voters of Clark County, Nevada, rejecting his application. Hansen had refused to supply a Social Security number on his application and Ferguson rejected him as a voter. Hansen says he does not have a Social Security number, driver's license, or government issued ID card. He says that he never will. He also refuses to pay income tax. He defends his stands on these issues based on his study of the U.S. Constitution and his religious beliefs. He says he is willing to pay any price and will not give in to government pressure. Hansen takes his right to vote seriously. So seriously that he took Ferguson to court to prove his point. With the help of his uncle, attorney Joel F. Hansen, he got the court to order Ferguson to permit him to vote. He belongs to the First Christian Fellowship of Eternal Sovereignty, which he says is a political religion based on Christianity and the Constitution which people of all denominations may join. "It's a fellowship of anybody who's Christian who really exercises their Christian beliefs within politics," explained Hansen in a phone interview with WorldNetDaily. "The Social Security number was much like the mark of the beast talked about in the "Book of Revelations." One of the main reasons is that it, I mean you can't buy or sell without it, it's hard to do a lot of business without it. Have you ever tried to get a job without one, or voting or anything? A lot of the stuff talked about in the prophecy had come to life and I said, 'I don't want one of those.' "Everything around Social Security is a lie. I don't want any of the benefits from it and I don't want to pay for it. The system's going bankrupt. Anything I pay for I'll never see anyway. It's blatantly unlawful and unconstitutional," explained Hansen. Living without a Social Security number is a challenge, but not a major problem for Hansen. He has no bank account, works only for family members who will pay him "under the table," refuses to get a driver's license, and won't pay taxes. Recently he started his own Internet consulting business. He just finished high school this year and says he has very few friends who believe as he does. He belongs to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "Because of my political beliefs," says Hansen, "I have a lot of trouble getting along at church with a lot of my fellow members." The members of his church believe in "The Articles of Faith," a portion of it reads "We believe in . . . obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." "They told me that the law said I had to have a number," explains Hansen. "I said, 'This is kind of stupid because all these numbers are obtained through the identification I already have.' When you get a driver's license or an ID card here, basically you show them your birth certificate, and to prove residency you write down on a little paper what your address is and sign something that says you're not lying, which is all you do on a voter registration thing." Ferguson didn't like Hansen's logic. She rejected his application to vote. Hansen contacted many elected officials for help. Some responded and some didn't, but none were of much help so he decided to take it to court. "The Constitution of Nevada establishes who can vote," explained Hansen. "If you're an idiot, you're insane, and if you don't have residency you can't vote. That's it." Hansen filed a Writ of Mandamus in the Clark County District Court. The purpose was to have the court order Ferguson to register Hansen so he can vote. Nevada law states that the "County Clerk shall require a person to submit official identification as proof of residence and identity, such as a driver's license or other official document before registering him." Hansen presented a diploma from high school and a birth certificate, but Ferguson demanded a Social Security card, driver's license, or a state ID card. Hansen does not have those items and in his petition to the court his attorney stated, "therefore, he presented alternative identification to the Registrar of Voters, but his right to register to vote was refused and denied by the county registrar of voters." Hansen was more surprised than anyone when his petition was granted by the court. "I didn't think I'd win," he said. On Oct. 19, the court ordered Ferguson to register Hansen to vote, and he now plans to cast his first ballot on Nov. 3. This may be just the first of many battles ahead for Hansen. He does drive a car, and does not plan to get a license. "The government has no right to regulate who can and cannot drive unless they have proven themselves to be a danger to the community and have been convicted by 12 informed jurors," wrote Hansen in an e-mail message to WorldNetDaily. "Assuming that everyone is already a danger and by telling us we must have a license to drive is known better as 'prior restraint' and according to the U.S. Supreme Court is unconstitutional." Hansen also objects to the current law which will implement a national ID card on Oct. 1, 2000. He says that Congress passed the law using illegal immigration control as the excuse. "The even more ironic twist is that most of the illegal immigrants coming here are filtering from Mexico trying to reap the socialist benefits offered by the federal government. Welfare, government schools, health care, social security, etc. If you want to stop illegal immigration bring back the American way of work hard and succeed as opposed to show up and leech off the tax payers," wrote Hansen. He concluded his e-mail by saying, "There is nothing they can ever do to make me surrender my personal freedom, nothing. I don't know a lot of people who exercise freedom to the point of fanaticism I do. I will not pay federal income tax, I will not be marked my their unconstitutional anti-Christ numbers. I will not take any of their socialist benefits. I will not bow before any bureaucracy. I will not surrender my God-given freedom to those bastards for any reason." David Bresnahan is a contributing editor of WorldNetDaily.com, and is the author of "Cover Up: The Art and Science of Political Deception." You may e-mail him at David at talkusa.com -- ****************************************************************** E Pluribus Unum The Central Ohio Patriot Group P.O. Box 791 Eventline/Voicemail: (614) 823-8499 Grove City, OH 43123 Meetings: Monday Evenings, 7:30pm, Ryan's Steakhouse 3635 W. Dublin-Granville Rd. (just East of Sawmill Rd.) http://www.infinet.com/~eplurib eplurib at infinet.com ****************************************************************** **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:34:08 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:34:08 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.03: Privacy Here and Abroad Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28410@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.03: Privacy Here and Abroad Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 00:06:37 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.03: Privacy Here and Abroad News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) November 1, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: The Washington Post, Saturday, October 31, 1998; Page A16 http://www.washingtonpost.com Privacy Here and Abroad http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-10/31/083l-103198-idx.h tml CONCERN OVER the privacy of personal data is sharpening as the problem appears in more and sometimes unexpected contexts -- everything from employer testing of people's genetic predispositions to resale of their online reading habits or their bank records. When the data are medical or financial, everyone but the sellers and resellers seems ready to agree that people should have some measure of control over how and by whom their data will be used. But how, other than piecemeal, can such control be established, and what would a more general right to data privacy look like? One approach very different from that of the United States, as it happens, is about to be thrust upon the consciousness of many American businesses as a European law called the European Union Data Privacy Directive goes into effect. The European directive has drawn attention not only because the European approach to and history on data privacy are sharply different from our own but also because the new directive comes with prohibitions on export that would crimp the options of any company that does business both here and in Europe. The directive imposes sweeping prohibitions on the use of any personal data without the explicit consent of the person involved, for that purpose only (repeated uses or resale require repeated permission) and also bars companies from exporting any such data to any country not ruled by the EU to have "adequate" privacy protection measures already in place. The Europeans have not ruled the United States "adequate" in this regard -- no surprise there -- though individual industries may pass muster or fall under special exemptions. That means, for instance, that multinational companies cannot allow U.S. offices access to personnel data on European employees, and airlines can't swap reservations data without restrictions. More to the point, they can't share or sell the kinds of data on customers that in this country are now routinely treated as another possible income stream. Would such restraints be a boon to customers on these shores too? Or will Americans, as the data companies frequently argue, find instead that they want the convenience and "one-on-one marketing" that this constant dossier-compiling makes possible? In one early case, a U.S. airline is being sued in Sweden to prevent its compiling and selling a database of, for instance, passengers who requested kosher meals or wheelchair assistance on arrival from transatlantic flights. Do customers want the "convenience" of this kind of tracking, and if not, how might they -- we -- avoid having it offered? The contrast between systems is a chance to consider which of the many business-as-usual uses of data in this country rise to the level of a privacy violation from which citizens should be shielded by law. � Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From mgering at ecosystems.net Mon Nov 2 16:36:30 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:36:30 +0800 Subject: Bic-Assassins Convicted Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B22A@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Typical statist media skewing by entangling allegations, accusation, speculation and acquitted charges with real convicted charges. --- [revised] Two men convicted of sending threatening email BROWNSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- Johnie Wise, 72, and Jack Abbott Grebe, 43, were convicted Thursday of two counts of sending threatening e-mails -- one message to the Internal Revenue Service and one to the Drug Enforcement Agency. They could get life in prison at their Jan. 29 sentencing. --- United States Constitution Amendment VIII - Excessive bail or fines and cruel punishment prohibited. Ratified 12/15/1791. Excessive bail shall not lie required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. --- Life imprisonment for sending threatening email? If IRS or DEA agents threaten someone by email, do they face life imprisonment, or just the other way around? Matt -----Original Article----- CNN http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/30/weapons.case.ap/ Two men convicted in biological weapons case October 30, 1998 Web posted at: 3:10 a.m. EST (0810 GMT) BROWNSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- Two men accused of scheming to attack President Clinton and others with cigarette lighters equipped with poison-coated cactus needles were convicted of sending threatening e-mail. Johnie Wise, 72, and Jack Abbott Grebe, 43, were convicted Thursday of two counts of sending threatening e-mails -- one message to the Internal Revenue Service and one to the Drug Enforcement Agency. Grebe and Wise were acquitted on one count each of conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction count and five counts each of sending threatening messages -- to President Clinton, U.S. Customs, the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, and the Secret Service. They could get life in prison at their Jan. 29 sentencing. Prosecutors said Wise schemed to modify a cigarette lighter so it would shoot cactus needles coated with toxins such as rabies, botulism, anthrax or HIV. Defense attorneys called idea 'silly' Among the men's alleged targets: Clinton, the U.S. and Texas attorneys general, and FBI Director Louis Freeh. Defense attorneys called the idea "silly" and "cockamamie." There was never any evidence that the accused possessed biological weapons or tried to develop a deadly lighter. The e-mailed threats were vaguely worded and did not discuss the lighter or cactus thorns. Under federal law, however, the threats were enough for a conviction and no biological weapons were needed, prosecutors said. The men would have carried out their plan to hurt government employees and their families if they hadn't been arrested, Assistant U.S. Attorney Mervyn Mosbacker said. Wise and Grebe were accused of concocting the plan to threaten government officials with e-mails. One e-mail, sent June 12, was titled "Declaration of War" and a second one, sent June 26, said government workers had been "targeted for destruction by revenge." A third defendant, Oliver Dean Emigh, 63, was acquitted on all counts. He was accused of writing the June 12 message, but the charges against the men stemmed from the June 26 e-mail. From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:50:12 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:50:12 +0800 Subject: IP: [FP] The DoD DNA Registry and Specimen Repository Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28432@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ScanThisNews" Subject: IP: [FP] The DoD DNA Registry and Specimen Repository Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:49:05 -0600 To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com SCAN THIS NEWS 11/1/98 "The blood is placed on special cards with the service member's Social Security number, date of birth, and branch of service designated on the front side of the card. On the reverse side of the bloodstain card are a fingerprint, a bar code, and signature attesting to the validity of the sample." ************************************************** The DoD DNA Registry and DoD Specimen Repository for Remains Identification http://www.afip.org/homes/oafme/dna/afdil.html Historical Overview: The U.S. military recognized the value of DNA testing as a necessary adjunct to traditional identification efforts. In a memorandum dated December 16, 1991, the Deputy Secretary of Defense authorized the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) to establish policies and requirements for the use of DNA analysis in the identification of remains. To carry out these policies, the establishment of a DNA Registry, to include a Specimen Repository for Remains Identification and a DNA Identification Laboratory were authorized under the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner (OAFME). On January 5, 1993, the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) issued a policy guidance for the establishment of a repository of specimen samples to aid in the remains identification using genetic analysis. On May 17, 1993, the Surgeon General, U.S. Army, was delegated as Executive Agent for the DNA Registry. On March 9, 1994, the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) issued a Memorandum of Instruction to the Service Secretaries establishing policies and procedures for the collection of DNA specimens. On April 2, 1996 policy refinements were issued to the DoD DNA Registry. In October 1994 the DNA Registry received approval from the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors for the production of DNA proficiency tests used by forensic DNA laboratories. AFDIL is one of four DNA laboratories to receive this approval in the United States. In January 1995 the Defense Science Board concurred with the use of mitochondrial DNA testing for associated and unassociated remains. Although AFDIL is capable of conducting more common nuclear DNA testing, nuclear DNA testing is not possible on ancient remains. DoD Specimen Repository for Remains Identification The DoD DNA Specimen Repository provides reference material for DNA analysis to assist in the remains identification process. A dried bloodstain and buccal swab are being collected from all Active Component (AC) personnel. A total of three DNA specimens are collected. One bloodstain card is stored in a pouch in the service member's medical record; another bloodstain card and a buccal swab are stored at the Armed Forces Repository for Specimen Samples for the Identification of Remains. The blood is placed on special cards with the service member's Social Security number, date of birth, and branch of service designated on the front side of the card. On the reverse side of the bloodstain card are a fingerprint, a bar code, and signature attesting to the validity of the sample. Ultimately, the bloodstain card is stored in a vacuum-sealed barrier bag and frozen at -20 degrees Celsius, in the Specimen Repository. The oral swab (buccal scrapping) is fixed in isopropanol and stored at room temperature. Great care is taken to prevent the possibility of error from sample switching or mislabeling. Additionally, the specimens are considered confidential medical information, and military regulations and federal law exist to cover any issues on privacy concerns. As of December 1994, DNA collections were being made from all newly accessioned personnel, the residual AC members, and select high risk Reserve Component (RC) members. Large scale RC collection are scheduled to begin collection in FY 96. Collections are being made from any service member deployed to a hostile fire or imminent danger area. During CY 94, collections were made from personnel deploying to Somalia, Rwanda, Haiti, Bosnia, and Latin America. All services are at least 90% complete with collections of special operations, aviation, and high risk duty personnel. The remaining AC individuals will be collected through FY 98, at the time of their annual physical. As of 31 December 1995, the Repository has received 1.15 million DNA specimens. Specimens come into the Repository at the rate of 3,000 - 4,000 per day. The updated Specimen Management System (SMS), using the Defense Eligibility Enrollment System (DEERS) database, verifies service member information. In CY 95, the Repository established an on-line datalink with DEERS. All DNA specimens will be maintained for fifty years, before being destroyed. Individual specimen samples will be destroyed upon request of the donor following the conclusion of the donor's complete military service obligation (including individually ready reserve status or subject to active duty recall) or other applicable relationship to DoD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- MEMORANDUM FOR ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE ARMY (M&RA) ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE NAVY (M&RA) ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE AIR FORCE (MRAI&E) SUBJECT: Casualty Identification Policy http://ippsrs.ha.osd.mil/main/caid9651.html July 18, 1996 References: (a) Deputy Secretary of Defense Memorandum 47003, "Establishment of a Repository of Specimen Samples to Aid in Remains Identification Using Genetic Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) Analysis," 16 December 1991. (b) Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) Memorandum and Policy Statement, "Establishment of a Repository of Specimen Samples to Aid in Remains Identification Using Genetic Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) Analysis," 5 January 1993. (c) Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) Memorandum, "Memorandum of Instruction of Procedures for the Collection and Shipment of Specimens for Submission to the Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) Specimen Repository," 9 March 1994. (d) Privacy Act System of Records Notice for System A0040-57aDASG, "DoD DNA Registry," 60 Fed. Reg. 31, 287-8, 14 June 1995. (e) Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) Memorandum, "Policy Refinements for the Armed Forces Repository of Specimen Samples for the Identification of Remains," 2 April 1996. Reference (a) delegated authority to the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs) (ASD(HA)) to issue policies and requirements for the establishment of a registry and appropriate specimen repository that will aid in the remains identification process by the use of DNA profile analysis. References (b) and (c) established policies and procedures for operation of the repository. Reference (d) formalized the system of records for the repository. Reference (e) refined the policies for the operation of the repository. Primary casualty identification is fundamental to the elements of medicolegal death investigations and involves the use of one or more complementary methods including fingerprints, footprints, dental comparisons, DNA identifications and superimposable radiographic techniques. The duplicate dental panograph repository or Central Panograph Storage Facility (CPSF) in Monterey, California was established in 1986 and has been used more than 1000 times over the last ten years largely by DoD agencies with close to 100 percent success. In 1991, DoD embarked on the creation and implementation of a DNA Registry including the Armed Forces Repository of Specimen Samples for Identification of Remains and Armed Forces Casualty Identification Laboratory both of which are components of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP). The Repository accessions approximately 5,000 files/day with original plans of having all servicemembers (active, reserve and guard) on file by FY 2002. Comparative DNA casualty identification is now the DoD preferred standard of positive casualty identification, making the duplicate panograph obsolete. The CPSF will be discontinued on 31 December 1999. Therefore, I request that you take all necessary measures to ensure an accelerated acquisitions program of servicemember DNA specimens to include active, reserve and guard components for purposes of casualty DNA profile identification. A DNA sample should be obtained from all new accessions; duplicate panographs will not be taken on new accessions and no servicemember is to deploy without having a DNA specimen on file. The DEERS Data Bank shall be used to ensure that servicemembers do in fact have a DNA specimen on file. While updated radiographs will continue to be part of a servicemember's medical/dental record, no new radiographs will be received by the Repository, effective this date. Please provide me with a copy of your plan to implement this accelerated request by 23 August 1996. The point of contact for this action is Captain Glenn Wagner, Deputy Director, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, (202) 782-2103. Colonel Salvatore M. Cirone is the OASD(HA) point of contact, (703) 695-7116. Stephen C. Joseph, M.D., M.P.H. cc: ASD(RA) HA POLICY 96-051 ************************************************** [Related info regarding DNA samples from children] ************************************************** New Guardian DNA Helps You Keep Your Baby Safe DNA Identification System Places State-of-the-Art Technology into Parents Hands Worried about hospital mix-ups or infant/child abductions? Guardian DNA Identification System consists of an easy-to-use DNA collection kit, an instructional safety video, a DNA sample storage facility, a recording system that provides for complete anonymity, and PIN/barcode security feature so that only parent authorized access is possible. Guardian DNA uses the same technology and methodology used by the U.S. Armed Forces. Collection can be performed at-home at any age, but for added newborn security parents will want to have one immediately after the birth. Retails for $49.95. Available through select hospitals and physicians, or by calling InVitro International at 1-800-246-8487 Ext. 230, or visit their web site at http://www.invitrointl.com/guardian.htm/ -------------------------------------------------- http://www.yellodyno.com/html/dnahome.html "Parents will feel more secure knowing they have their child's DNA 'fingerprints' safely stored away." - Dr. Martin H. Smith, Pediatrician and former President of the American Academy of Pediatrics DNA I.D. is, without question, the future of identification. For one thing, DNA I.D. (also known as "genetic fingerprinting") is the only virtually positive and permanent identification method. For example, photographs fade and must be updated, and fingerprints can smear or be difficult to acquire (getting a proper child's fingerprint can be very difficult), but each person's DNA does not change for his entire life. DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) molecules are that part of the human physiology which carries the genetic "blueprint" that makes each person unique. Each person's "genetic" makeup is exclusive and never changes for their entire life. As such, "DNA fingerprinting" can provide reliable identification even when it may be impossible to recover a fingerprint. Further, DNA I.D. is generally admissible in court, and can be invaluable in reuniting parents with their children in the case of parental abductions, kidnappings, accidents, and natural disasters. DNA identification is now available to families in an easy-to-use, at-home kit. With the "do-it-yourself" DNA I.D.Kit, it takes parents only minutes to capture, preserve, and store-at-home their child's genetic "fingerprints." Tens of thousands of parents are already keeping their children's "genes" at home. The DNA I.D. Kit provides a way of properly taking, recording, and storing genetic samples in a patented, tamper-proof system. Yello Dyno says "O.K., this is where you might get a little 'squeemish,' but read on, because this is really cool and easy ... and something every parent needs to consider for their child (or any member of their family, for that matter!). This is how it works." The genetic material is derived from very small samples hair and blood. The kit includes a virtually painless, spring-loaded, medical quality puncture tool to help draw a few drops of blood from the finger, which is then placed on a special absorptive paper card. After air drying for a little while, the card is then placed in one of the special foil tamper-proof envelopes for preserving and storing, on which personal information is recorded. If you are too uncomfortable to use the puncture tool, the hair sample by itself should suffice, which is stored and recorded the same way. Many parents just take the kit to their pediatrician and have them draw the drops of blood. Then, a personal information card on your child is filled out, including attaching a picture. A fingerprint card is also included along with special fingerprinting material and instructions. After you are done, everything is then put in another, larger foil tamper-proof envelope and sealed. Personal information is then recorded on the envelope and it is ready to be put in a safe place. Unrefrigerated the samples should last for many years (they are dry). Refrigeration will extend viability of samples much longer. Unrefrigerated renewal is recommended once every five years. Again, this patented system is a way of properly taking, storing, and preserving genetic samples, not the actual test. If the DNA sample is ever needed to make a genetic match the process is usually initiated by law enforcement or some other agency. (Beware of suggestions to "make your own DNA I.D." While storing DNA samples at home can be simple with a specially made medical product like this, it can be completely ineffective without the right procedures.) The DNA I.D. Kit can also be a part of your at-home fact file. By combining an up-to-date child I.D. card and the DNA I.D. Kit, parents can have a valuable child identification system. DNA is so important to the future of identification that it is already being used by the FBI and the U.S. Armed Forces. In fact, DNA I.D. is the preferred method of identification for law enforcement, as seen in more and more court cases recently. "DNA Analysis . . . is considered the most important advance in forensics since fingerprinting. Its use in U.S. courts has skyrocketed from 14 cases by the end of 1987 to 12,000 by mid-1993," according to an article in the Austin-American Statesman in June 1994. The FBI is implementing a national DNA database, called CODIS, to track people by their DNA. The U.S. Army started a genetic depository in 1992 that will eventually include the DNA of every American in uniform. The U.S. Army's goal is to have no more "unknown soldiers." DNA is also already being used to identify missing children. For example, in December, 1993, a two-year old was returned to his parents two years after being kidnapped - only after police established scientifically who the child was by using "genetic fingerprinting." If you are ever separated from your child and time passes, DNA analysis is probably the only way of making a virtually fool-proof identification. This remarkable kit provides you with the tools you need. ======================================================================= Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. ======================================================================= Reply to: ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 16:57:39 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:57:39 +0800 Subject: IP: Fatal Flaws: How military misled about Agent Orange Message-ID: <199811022344.PAA28421@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Fatal Flaws: How military misled about Agent Orange Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 11:41:36 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: San Diego Union-Tribune http://www.union-tribune.com/news/981101-0010_mz1n1agent.html FATAL FLAWS How the military misled Vietnam veterans and their families about the health risks of Agent Orange UNION-TRIBUNE Staff Writer November 1, 1998 The U.S. military's $200 million study of the health effects of Agent Orange on Vietnam War veterans is so flawed that it might be useless, a six-month investigation by The San Diego Union-Tribune has found. The study has been a key factor in denying compensation to Vietnam veterans suffering from illnesses they blame on Agent Orange, a powerful herbicide used to destroy enemy crops and jungle hiding places. Interviews with military scientists, transcripts of meetings, and government reports and internal memos reveal that these are among the flaws in the Air Force study, which began in 1979 and concludes in 2006: Two study reports that revealed serious birth defects among children of veterans exposed to Agent Orange were withheld for years, leaving a generation of men and women who served in Vietnam to start families without knowing the potential risks. A report expressing concerns about cancer and birth defects was altered, with the result that the risks appeared less serious. The government ignored a National Academy of Sciences recommendation that the study be done by scientists outside the military. High-ranking Air Force officers interfered with the study' s data analysis, undermining its scientific integrity. The Air Force stonewalled a U.S. senator who wanted full disclosure of the data. Dr. Richard Albanese, one of four scientists who designed the study but later was taken off the project, says it was manipulated to downplay the health problems of Vietnam veterans. "This is a medical crime, basically," Albanese said. "Certainly, this is against all medical ethics." Albanese, a civilian doctor, still works at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio, where the study' s scientists are headquartered. When the Union-Tribune contacted him, Albanese weighed the consequences for several days and then agreed to a series of interviews in the hope that veterans will be treated better in the future. He said the study is tainted because a government agency, in this case the Air Force, was allowed to investigate itself. Joel Michalek, the study' s head scientist, acknowledged that the Air Force and the government tried to interfere, but he said this had no impact on the study. He said he received two memos through the chain of command that tried to influence the study, but threw them away. The study is named for Operation Ranch Hand, a series of Air Force missions that sprayed 18 million gallons of defoliants over 3.6 million acres of South Vietnam. The Ranch Hand study tracks the health of about 1,000 veterans who participated in the spraying missions, in comparison with an Air Force group that was not involved in the spraying. Both groups come to San Diego every few years for medical exams. Agent Orange contained dioxin, now known to cause some cancers. The defoliant destroyed forests and darkened the waters of the Mekong Delta, where Patti Robinson' s husband, Geoff, was a gunner' s mate on a Navy patrol boat in 1968-69. Robinson, who lives in Clairemont, said her husband described how the herbicide congealed and licked at river banks. But he told her the men bathed and swam in the water anyway; their superiors said it was safe. When her husband died of cancer in 1981, Robinson turned to the Veterans Administration for help. Her claim citing Agent Orange as a factor in her husband' s death also listed her son, Matthew, who was born in 1976 with a developmental disability. But the government told Robinson that Agent Orange did not cause her husband' s malignant melanoma, nor her son' s communication disorder. Or any other health problem for that matter. All claims were being denied. Agent Orange was innocent until proved guilty. The government had made that clear in 1978, after the first 500 claims came in. Garth Dettinger, an Air Force deputy surgeon general, told Congress there was no evidence that Agent Orange had harmed anyone. But concerns about the herbicide' s health effects had been raised since the early ' 70s, and the public wanted proof. So Congress funded the Ranch Hand study. Dettinger helped make sure it was done by Air Force scientists. Conflict of interest Although Dettinger wanted the Air Force to evaluate its use of Agent Orange, some of its scientists thought that might present a conflict of interest. Col. George Lathrop, head scientist for the Ranch Hand study in its early years, told a military science board in 1979 that an Air Force study wouldn' t be credible to people outside the government. "We advised a certain general that, ' No, we should not do this.' And we were told to shut up and do it anyway," Lathrop said, according to a transcript of the meeting. "So we are saluting the flag pole and mushing on. We are doing the damn thing." That general, Lathrop said in a recent interview, was Dettinger. "Dettinger had the notion that if we didn' t do this study that he would devise his own questionnaire and his own study and go out and get it done himself," Lathrop said. "It would have been scientifically disastrous." Dettinger denied ordering Lathrop to do the Ranch Hand study and said he never threatened to conduct his own version. "He' s not being honest about that," Dettinger said. "I promised Congress we would do the study. My word is my bond, and so we went ahead and did it." Albanese also worried that conflict of interest might affect the findings. But, at the time, he believed the danger could be offset by a rule written into the study design: Air Force management was not to interfere with the scientific analysis. The scientists weren' t the only ones with conflict-of-interest concerns. The National Academy of Sciences reviewed the study design in 1980 and recommended it be done by independent researchers. But a White House panel made up of representatives from the Pentagon and VA, among other federal agencies, said the Air Force would do it. The panel, called the Agent Orange Working Group, appointed an advisory committee to review Ranch Hand reports. But the committee did more directing than advising during the first decade of the study, Albanese said. Ranch Hand reports went from the Air Force to the advisory committee, then to the Agent Orange Working Group and back to the Air Force. Sources and documents indicate the reports were changed during that process, sometimes dramatically. Altered report The Air Force scientists drafted two major Ranch Hand reports in 1984. One of them was withheld. The other was published, but its findings were altered. The report that was withheld dealt specifically with reproductive health issues, and stressed birth defects and infant deaths. It showed high rates of both among children of Ranch Hand veterans. The report that was published examined the general health of Ranch Hand veterans. It presented data on birth defects, cancer and many other medical conditions. The Air Force announced that it showed little difference between the health of Ranch Hand and comparison veterans. But that wasn' t what the Ranch Hand scientists wrote. Their original version of the report contained a table showing that the Ranch Hand veterans were, by a ratio of 5-1, "less well" than the comparison group. That version also noted that Ranch Hand veterans reported significantly more birth defects among their children than did the other veterans. After the White House panel' s advisory committee reviewed the report, those details were downplayed or eliminated. Lathrop complied with the committee' s recommendations to omit the table, soften the birth defects language and drop a sentence that said Ranch Hand veterans might have been harmed by Agent Orange. Lathrop also deleted a sentence that said some of the findings were "of concern." He added a line that said the overall findings were "reassuring." Lathrop didn' t object to the changes, which he said were minor. "Fundamentally, the advisory group felt that we were too liberal on the interpretation," he said. Albanese, on the other hand, thought the changes distorted the report. He wrote a letter requesting that his views be published as a minority opinion, and kept a copy in his files. Lathrop, who didn' t respond to Albanese' s letter, said he doesn' t recall receiving it. Albanese and Lathrop also disagreed about how the cancer data were prepared and presented in the 1984 health report. Because the Ranch Hand group is too small for the scientists to draw conclusions about rare cancers, Albanese said, they decided to study the incidence of cancer as a whole. They found that the Ranch Hand veterans had twice as many cancers as the comparison group. But that didn' t make it into the report. Instead, skin and internal cancers were separated. Presented that way, the Ranch Hand group had 135 percent more skin cancers than the comparison group, but only 20 percent more internal cancers. The scientists reported the high skin cancer rate, but suggested it was caused by overexposure to the sun. They found "no significant group differences" in internal cancers. Within the small Ranch Hand group, Albanese said, the increase in internal cancers became a meaningless statistic. Albanese was outraged. "It happened that most cancers were in the skin, and the report said they were just in the skin," he said. "That' s not a correct inference." At the press conference that unveiled the 1984 health findings, Murphy Chesney, a deputy Air Force surgeon general at the time, announced that the health of the Ranch Hand and comparison veterans was about the same. In response to a question during that press conference, Albanese voiced a mild disagreement. Noting the higher incidence of some diseases, he said, "I cannot account for such differences by chance; on the other hand, I cannot explain their cause." He repeated to reporters a phrase that had been deleted from the report: "A degree of concern is warranted." Albanese was removed from the Ranch Hand study eight months later. The Air Force said he was needed on a different project. Sensitive information Albanese considered going public with his misgivings about the Ranch Hand study years ago, but decided against it. He didn' t want to jeopardize his career as a government scientist. Because of the study' s flaws, Albanese said, Vietnam veterans have not received the compensation they deserve. Lathrop said it was better not to release sensitive data from the Ranch Hand study prematurely, and nothing was more sensitive than information about birth defects. "There was a great deal riding on the issue of birth defects," he said. "The VA had not decided on the issue of compensation and so forth." After her husband died, Patti Robinson struggled to meet her son' s special needs. She needed the government compensation, but more than that, she needed the truth. "The uncertainty has left big question marks," she said. "If it wasn' t for that, you could put it behind you." Robinson never remarried. She devoted her life to her son, Matthew, who is 21 now, the age his father was in Vietnam. Matthew has the reading skills of a second-grader, and he has a hard time getting words out. But he can look at a photograph, identify a place he has been and offer directions to get there. He calls his mother by her first name and often refers to himself in the third person. He will say, "Patti, Matthew is stupid," and his mother will fire back, "No, you' re not." Matthew keeps a picture of his father in his bedroom. Sometimes he shows it to visitors. But pain registered on his face when he was asked what he remembers about the man who died so long ago. He turned away. "Matthew doesn' t want to talk about that," he said. In the private sector To reduce the workload of its scientists, the Air Force hired a private company to conduct Ranch Hand general health studies published since 1984. But the government has remained in charge. And the firm that won the first contract featured a familiar face. George Lathrop had retired from the Air Force and was working at the San Antonio office of Science Applications International Corp., a San Diego-based company that was founded on defense contracts. Lathrop said he wanted to continue working on the Ranch Hand study. He figured that with him on its team, SAIC would get the contract. It did. Lathrop left SAIC in 1987. The company went on to win the contracts for 1987, 1992, 1997 and 2002. It uses Scripps Clinic in La Jolla to perform the medical tests. Results are analyzed by SAIC, then sent to scientists at Brooks Air Force Base for approval. The SAIC contracts do not include compiling birth defects reports. The Air Force does that itself. By 1987, Ranch Hand had emerged as the government' s definitive Agent Orange study. "It was the pivotal study," said Michalek, Ranch Hand' s head scientist since 1991. "It still is." The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta tried to do its own study by matching records of troop movements with Agent Orange spraying. But after five years and nearly $50 million, the CDC decided its review method wasn' t reliable. After the CDC gave up in 1987, the government dismissed other studies that used similar exposure estimates. They were deemed unscientific. That left the Ranch Hand study as the government' s principal yardstick for Agent Orange damage. Pattern of manipulation South Dakota Sen. Tom Daschle, a Democrat, has kept an eye on the Ranch Hand study since the early 1980s. He was confident it would support his belief that Agent Orange harmed Vietnam veterans. When that hadn' t happened by 1984, when Daschle was a member of the House of Representatives, he decided to investigate. He assigned an aide, Laura Petrou, to help. They collected Air Force and other government correspondence and saw what they believed was a pattern of manipulation to minimize findings of health problems among Ranch Hand veterans. When Daschle learned about the unpublished 1984 birth defects report, he asked for a copy. The Air Force refused to give him one. Finally, in a letter to Daschle dated Aug. 25, 1987, the Air Force conceded that the cancer and birth defects information in the 1984 Ranch Hand health report -- the one Albanese said was distorted by advisory committee changes -- might be incorrect. Daschle then met with Albanese, Michalek and a third Ranch Hand scientist, Col. William H. Wolfe. They told Daschle about another unpublished report, which included some of the cancer and birth defects information that was left out of the 1984 general health report. Daschle fought to make the report public. The advisory committee argued that it was a rehash of old data. The report was released in February 1988, but it didn' t gain the attention Daschle had hoped. The Air Force deemed the report "technically correct" but did not publicize it or list it among Ranch Hand publications. One month after the report was released, Scripps Clinic issued a study update, a press release that said the Ranch Hand veterans were doing fine. It quoted Wolfe: "This is the definitive study on Agent Orange in Vietnam veterans, and so far it shows that disease is not related to apparent exposure, that there is no increased incidence of major long-term health effects. "These results are reassuring." ' Forbidden interpretation' Patti Robinson was not reassured. She had been attending meetings of San Diego veterans' groups and had read everything she could find on Agent Orange. Robinson also corresponded with retired Navy Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, who had ordered the spraying of Agent Orange along the Mekong Delta to kill vegetation where enemy snipers hid. His son, Navy Lt. j.g. Elmo Zumwalt III, had commanded a patrol boat in the Mekong Delta, the same waters Geoff Robinson had navigated. Former Lt. j.g. Zumwalt died of cancer in 1988. His son, Russell, was diagnosed with sensory integration dysfunction, the same communication disorder that plagues Patti Robinson' s son, Matthew. Robinson thought the Ranch Hand veterans and her husband were exposed to roughly equal amounts of Agent Orange. She believed the Ranch Hand study would be the one that would "prove how dangerous Agent Orange was." "I placed a high priority on that study," Robinson said. "I was disappointed in the results." The Air Force now regrets having described Ranch Hand findings as "reassuring," Michalek said. "That' s a forbidden interpretation," he said. "You can' t reassure anyone of anything in (statistical studies). You can only establish hazard, not safety." Daschle grew tired of fighting the Air Force on the Ranch Hand study. He tried to find other ways to help Vietnam veterans and their families. "Our whole point was if the government was controlling all the science and analyses veterans would never get compensated," Petrou said. Daschle, along with then-Sen. Alan Cranston, D-Calif., and Rep. Lane Evans, D-Ill., pushed legislation to compensate Vietnam veterans suffering from soft-tissue sarcoma and non-Hodgkin' s lymphoma. The bill also authorized the National Academy of Sciences to evaluate scientific and medical information about the health effects of Agent Orange. Earlier attempts to pass similar legislation had failed. But toward the end of 1990, with U.S. troops in the Persian Gulf, Congress was eager to help veterans. The Senate passed the bill Jan. 30, 1991, the day Camp Pendleton Marines led the first major ground battle of the Persian Gulf War. During a ceremony to announce the legislation, President Bush proclaimed: "We are here today to ensure that our nation will ever remember those who defended her, the men and women who stood where duty required them to stand." Undue influence? Murphy Chesney, a retired lieutenant general, was an important player in both the Ranch Hand study and the Ranch Hand spraying missions. In Vietnam, as the officer in charge of the health and safety of Air Force personnel, he could have recommended against spraying herbicides if he thought they might be dangerous. But he shared the then-prevailing opinion that Agent Orange, named for the color of the stripe around its 55-gallon storage containers, wouldn' t hurt the troops. After the war, he oversaw the Ranch Hand study from 1979 until he was promoted to Air Force surgeon general in 1985. Chesney couldn' t say whether his role in Operation Ranch Hand influenced his decisions in the Ranch Hand study. "I hope it didn' t," he said in an interview. But Albanese, who worked on the study during the years Chesney was involved, believes it did. He recalled a dispute with a colleague, Wolfe, over data analysis. Chesney sided with Wolfe. "Then," Albanese said, "Gen. Chesney pulled me aside and said, ' If I had to accept your analysis, I' m not sure I could live with myself.' "I could see the water in his eyes. "He said he had approved some of those spraying activities." Chesney said no such conversation took place. But Chesney did remember ordering the scientists to comply with advisory committee recommendations, although such influence by the Air Force is prohibited by the rules of the study design. Looking back, Albanese said, it should have been obvious that the conflict of interest was too strong for the study to be objective. "There' s a faction that doesn' t want to pay the price of treating the veterans," he said, "and a faction that doesn' t want to have made them sick." Birth defects acknowledged In August 1992, the Air Force finally published a Ranch Hand birth defects report. Michalek said the Air Force had withheld the 1984 birth defects report because the advisory committee said it was incomplete. Ranch Hand scientists had verified records of babies with birth defects, but had not yet checked the healthy ones. In the draft of the report, the scientists wrote that it would take about a year to verify records of the healthy babies. But eight years passed before a report came out. The 1992 report confirmed the high rate of birth defects and infant deaths among children fathered by Ranch Hand veterans. But the scientists wrote that because the birth defects did not increase consistently with dioxin exposure, Agent Orange wasn' t to blame. But that might be inaccurate, the National Academy of Sciences concluded in 1994. The academy criticized the Ranch Hand study and singled out the 1992 birth defects report as an example of its many flaws. "It was confusing how the analysis of the birth defects was presented," said Kathleen Rodgers, one of 16 contributors to the National Academy of Sciences study, "Veterans and Agent Orange." "I remember being incensed at the time that we couldn' t get anything out of it," said Rodgers, an associate professor at the University of Southern California School of Medicine. The Air Force scientists, examining a study group that was small to begin with, had omitted hundreds of subjects from the analysis, the academy said. That made it harder to connect birth defects to Agent Orange. Or easier not to. "Some aspect of the Ranch Hand experience seems to have increased the risk of fathering children with birth defects," the academy report said, "but the implications of this finding are unclear." The Air Force, of course, knew that 10 years earlier but sat on the information. "It' s the worst thing I have ever seen from the point of view of medical reporting," Albanese said. Releasing the data In recent years, as the Agent Orange controversy has faded from the public' s consciousness, the Ranch Hand advisory committee' s role has diminished. During its meeting last week in San Antonio -- the first such gathering since 1995 -- Michalek briefed the committee on the Union-Tribune' s investigation of the study. Michalek asked Albanese to detail his concerns about unpublished data and government interference. Afterward, Albanese suggested that the raw Ranch Hand data be made public, repeating an idea he has advocated for years. That way, he said, researchers outside the military might come up with new and useful analyses. Advisory committee Chairman Robert W. Harrison recommended that everything should be released, except for information that would violate the confidentiality of the subjects. Michalek said he would comply. Harrison, a professor of medicine at the University of Rochester, said that he and his colleagues on the panel should start looking more closely at how the study is conducted and its findings. Expanded compensation Last year, the Air Force announced its first link between Agent Orange and a serious illness. The Ranch Hand veterans have a higher rate of diabetes. Air Force scientists saw the diabetes increase in 1992 but waited five years to make it public. Michalek said they wanted to be sure. The delay came as no surprise to Daschle and his aide, Petrou, who are still upset with the Air Force for withholding information about cancer and birth defects. "Delay is clearly their major tactic," Petrou said. "The delay is justice denied. It' s extremely disturbing. "From a public health perspective and from a moral perspective in terms of how we treat veterans, there' s no excuse good enough for this." Daschle has given up on the Ranch Hand study. But he has worked around it with some success. The National Academy of Sciences has continued its investigation, examining studies of Vietnam veterans and those of civilians exposed to dioxin in industrial accidents. As the academy links additional diseases to dioxin, more Vietnam veterans get help. The VA -- now the Department of Veterans Affairs -- has expanded its Agent Orange compensation list to 10 diseases, mostly cancers. Spina bifida, a serious spinal deformity, is the only birth defect on the list so far. As of April, the VA had received 92,276 Agent Orange claims from veterans and their survivors. Claims approved for diseases on the compensation list totaled 5,908. Patti Robinson remains a part of the larger group. The academy hasn' t found enough evidence that Agent Orange caused malignant melanoma, the cancer that took her husband. Which leaves Robinson where she was 15 years ago. She still believes Agent Orange killed her husband and disabled her son. But she can' t be sure. And that' s what really hurts, she said. "Look at all the years that have gone by, and there' s still no clear-cut answer." Copyright 1998 Union-Tribune Publishing Co. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 2 17:08:33 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:08:33 +0800 Subject: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) Message-ID: <199811030021.SAA02609@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: Bic-Assassins Convicted > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:57:43 -0800 > BROWNSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- Johnie Wise, 72, and Jack Abbott > Grebe, 43, were convicted Thursday of two counts of sending > threatening e-mails -- one message to the Internal Revenue > Service and one to the Drug Enforcement Agency. > > They could get life in prison at their Jan. 29 sentencing. I have a question, if they had threatened just a plain old citizen with this email would they also be facing this life imprisonment? ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 2 18:29:18 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:29:18 +0800 Subject: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811030021.SAA02609@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811030150.UAA07116@camel14.mindspring.com> Jim Choate asked: >If they had threatened just a plain old citizen with this >email would they also be facing this life imprisonment? Apparently the charges would have been the same if made against any "person within the United States, and the results of such use affect interstate or foreign commerce or, in the case of a threat, attempt, or conspiracy, would have affected interstate or foreign commerce." (see below) The use of E-mail was incidental to the charges of both conspiracy and threatening to use weapons of mass destruction: 18:2332(a)(2) and (c)(2)(C). Conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction against person(s) w/in the U.S. the results of which affected interstate & foreign commerce. Offense dates: 3/24/98 - 6/30/98. Penalty: Any term of years or for life, $250,000, 5 yrs SRT. (1) 18:2332a(a)(2) and (c)(2)(C) and 2. Threatening to use a weapon of mass destruction. Offense date: 6/26/98 Penalty: any term of years or Proceedings include all events. for life, $250,000, 5 yrs SRT as to ea ct. (2 - 8) The eight counts are for the one count of conspiracy and threats against seven federal agencies ("employees and families"): The President ATF FBI DEA IRS Secret Service Custom Service ---------- The crimes are defined in 18 USC 2332a, below. Source: http://law.house.gov/usc.htm ---------- TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 113B - TERRORISM Sec. 2332a. Use of weapons of mass destruction (a) Offense Against a National of the United States or Within the United States. - A person who, without lawful authority, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to use, a weapon of mass destruction, including any biological agent, toxin, or vector (as those terms are defined in section 178) - (2) against any person within the United States, and the results of such use affect interstate or foreign commerce or, in the case of a threat, attempt, or conspiracy, would have affected interstate or foreign commerce; ---------- (c) Definitions. - For purposes of this section - (2) the term ''weapon of mass destruction'' means - (A) any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this title; (B) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors; (C) any weapon involving a disease organism; or (D) any weapon that is designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life. ---------- CHAPTER 10 - BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS Sec. 178. Definitions As used in this chapter - (1) the term ''biological agent'' means any micro-organism, virus, infectious substance, or biological product that may be engineered as a result of biotechnology, or any naturally occurring or bioengineered component of any such microorganism, virus, infectious substance, or biological product, capable of causing - (A) death, disease, or other biological malfunction in a human, an animal, a plant, or another living organism; (B) deterioration of food, water, equipment, supplies, or material of any kind; or (C) deleterious alteration of the environment; (2) the term ''toxin'' means the toxic material of plants, animals, microorganisms, viruses, fungi, or infectious substances, or a recombinant molecule, whatever its origin or method of production, including - (A) any poisonous substance or biological product that may be engineered as a result of biotechnology produced by a living organism; or (B) any poisonous isomer or biological product, homolog, or derivative of such a substance; (3) the term ''delivery system'' means - (A) any apparatus, equipment, device, or means of delivery specifically designed to deliver or disseminate a biological agent, toxin, or vector; or (B) any vector; (4) the term ''vector'' means a living organism, or molecule, including a recombinant molecule, or biological product that may be engineered as a result of biotechnology, capable of carrying a biological agent or toxin to a host; and (5) the term ''national of the United States'' has the meaning prescribed in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(22)). ---------- Crime of 18 USC 2 not shown. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 2 18:40:16 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:40:16 +0800 Subject: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811030021.SAA02609@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 4:21 PM -0800 11/2/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> From: Matthew James Gering >> Subject: RE: Bic-Assassins Convicted >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:57:43 -0800 > >> BROWNSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- Johnie Wise, 72, and Jack Abbott >> Grebe, 43, were convicted Thursday of two counts of sending >> threatening e-mails -- one message to the Internal Revenue >> Service and one to the Drug Enforcement Agency. >> >> They could get life in prison at their Jan. 29 sentencing. > >I have a question, if they had threatened just a plain old citizen with >this email would they also be facing this life imprisonment? > A very good point. I've had cretins make death threats against me, threats which were probably more realizable than these "Bic assassins" were fantasizing about, yet I'm sure the local cops would have told me to chill out and just let it ride had I brought the threats to their attention. It sure is looking, pace this case and the Bell and CJ cases, that the courts are being put at the service of government employees who feel threatened. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Nov 2 19:17:40 1998 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:17:40 +0800 Subject: s-format file converter? Message-ID: <000d01be06d4$f42d5e80$33248bd0@luckylaptop.c2.net> I need to convert some files stored in Motorola s-format (widely used for input into EPROM burners) to a binary blob of data my debugger can read. I know there is a GNU utility that supports converting to and from s-format and a wide variety of other file formats, but a web search turned up empty. If you know where to find such a utility for UNIX, please let me know. Thanks, --Lucky Green PGP 5.x encrypted email preferred From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 2 19:21:14 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:21:14 +0800 Subject: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) Message-ID: <199811030242.UAA02938@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 20:41:24 -0500 > From: John Young > Subject: RE: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) > Jim Choate asked: > > >If they had threatened just a plain old citizen with this > >email would they also be facing this life imprisonment? > > Apparently the charges would have been the same if made > against any > > "person within the United States, and the results of such > use affect interstate or foreign commerce or, in the case > of a threat, attempt, or conspiracy, would have affected > interstate or foreign commerce." (see below) Ok, exactly how would their threat effect inter-state commerce? > The use of E-mail was incidental to the charges of both > conspiracy and threatening to use weapons of mass destruction: > > 18:2332(a)(2) and (c)(2)(C). Conspiracy to use a weapon > of mass destruction against person(s) w/in the U.S. > the results of which affected interstate & foreign > commerce. Offense dates: 3/24/98 - 6/30/98. Penalty: > Any term of years or for life, $250,000, 5 yrs SRT. (1) Conspiracy requires active steps, not simply talking about it. As I understand it the conspiracy and weapons of mass destructions charges were given a not-guilty by the jury. No proof was presented that they had ever even bought a bic lighter to test with. Hell, even going to the bookstore and buying a book or the library and checking one out is protected under the Constitution. It takes more than talk to generate a conspiracy. > 18:2332a(a)(2) and (c)(2)(C) and 2. Threatening to use a > weapon of mass destruction. Offense date: 6/26/98 > Penalty: any term of years or Proceedings include all events. > for life, $250,000, 5 yrs SRT as to ea ct. (2 - 8) If we're going to go by this then the US government is already guilty re their plan to destroy various contraband plants via genetic weapons. If you think that won't effect inter-state & international commerce you better think again. And they've gone a lot farther than just talking about it in email. Congress has spent millions on it over the last few years. > The eight counts are for the one count of conspiracy and > threats against seven federal agencies ("employees and > families"): > > The President > ATF > FBI > DEA > IRS > Secret Service > Custom Service Ok, so my question still stands what if these had been actual people instead of government agencies? The charges are *NOT* for threatening individuals who happen to be government agents, oh no, they're for threatening government *agencies* a whole different ball game ('The President' is an office not a person). > CHAPTER 113B - TERRORISM > > Sec. 2332a. Use of weapons of mass destruction > > (a) Offense Against a National of the United States or Within the > United States. - A person who, without lawful authority, uses, > threatens, or attempts or conspires to use, a weapon of mass > destruction, including any biological agent, toxin, or vector (as > those terms are defined in section 178) - Where is 'lawful authority' defined? > (2) against any person within the United States, and the > results of such use affect interstate or foreign commerce or, in > the case of a threat, attempt, or conspiracy, would have affected > interstate or foreign commerce; I covered this one already. > (c) Definitions. - For purposes of this section - > > (2) the term ''weapon of mass destruction'' means - > > (A) any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this > title; > > (B) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or > serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or > impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors; > > (C) any weapon involving a disease organism; or So if I go out and sneeze on somebody I've committed an attack using a weapon of mass destruction? > (D) any weapon that is designed to release radiation or > radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life. Where is the definition of 'mass' in there? Hell, just about anything qualifies under this definition. It doesn't even require the death of 1 single individual (it doesn't even require it to be lethal). Oh, *all* radiation is harmful to human life. > CHAPTER 10 - BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS > Sec. 178. Definitions > > As used in this chapter - > > (1) the term ''biological agent'' means any micro-organism, > virus, infectious substance, or biological product that may be > engineered as a result of biotechnology, or any naturally > occurring or bioengineered component of any such microorganism, > virus, infectious substance, or biological product, capable of > causing - > > (A) death, disease, or other biological malfunction in a > human, an animal, a plant, or another living organism; Well this certainly covers each and every effect of a pathogen on a biological system (I particularly like the way they've covered their butts for ET.... 'another living organism'. Not to mention that cleaning your kitchen counter qualifies under this statute. > (B) deterioration of food, water, equipment, supplies, or > material of any kind; or > > (C) deleterious alteration of the environment; Well at least they've set themselves up for their anti-drug pathogen program. > (2) the term ''toxin'' means the toxic material of plants, Can you say circular defintion, I thought you could. This sentence say nothing. > animals, microorganisms, viruses, fungi, or infectious > substances, or a recombinant molecule, whatever its origin or > method of production, including - > > (A) any poisonous substance or biological product that may be > engineered as a result of biotechnology produced by a living > organism; or > > (B) any poisonous isomer or biological product, homolog, or > derivative of such a substance; This of course happens to cover plain old water (re 'whatever its origin or method of preduction'). > (3) the term ''delivery system'' means - > > (A) any apparatus, equipment, device, or means of delivery > specifically designed to deliver or disseminate a biological > agent, toxin, or vector; or > > (B) any vector; > > (4) the term ''vector'' means a living organism, or molecule, > including a recombinant molecule, or biological product that may > be engineered as a result of biotechnology, capable of carrying a > biological agent or toxin to a host; and Next time I get food-poisoning at a restaraunt it's comforting to know that the federal government will be right there to prosecute under this particular statute... Geesh. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From explorer at netcom.com Tue Nov 3 11:25:12 1998 From: explorer at netcom.com (explorer at netcom.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:25:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811031924.LAA01821@toad.com> 11/03/98 INTERNET NEWS/Y2K (YEAR 2000 SOLUTION) Most of the information from the silicon valley is obtained from the local pubs/bars. Un-named sources discussing the Y2K problem at the local brew revealed, that 2 of the big valley software manufacturers are in a bidding war for software technology created by a small publicly traded company OTC-BB symbol:"TCFG" that is in the process of obtaining a patent. This 3 year old emerging growth company has tested and out performed the "Big Boys"! Several rogue ex-employees of the "giants" joined this company and claims abound about their success. If truth is stronger than fiction then "TCFG" is going to play with the big boys. We all know the Y2K problem and what the real solution would mean to all of us $$! How much will they pay "TCFG"? Back to the pub friday evening for more info... From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 2 19:25:35 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:25:35 +0800 Subject: s-format file converter? (fwd) Message-ID: <199811030250.UAA03074@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Lucky Green" > Subject: s-format file converter? > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:52:11 -0800 > I need to convert some files stored in Motorola s-format (widely used for > input into EPROM burners) to a binary blob of data my debugger can read. I > know there is a GNU utility that supports converting to and from s-format > and a wide variety of other file formats, but a web search turned up empty. > > If you know where to find such a utility for UNIX, please let me know. Geesh. If you know it's GNU then it makes some sense to check gnu.org now wouldn't it? You might also want to check out the 'frankenstein' set of cross-assemblers as they handle a wide variety of targets and file formats. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 2 19:43:31 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:43:31 +0800 Subject: CJ & a potential out... Message-ID: <199811030301.VAA03145@einstein.ssz.com> It occurs to me that since the court saw fit to assign an attorney over CJ's objection he may have constitutional grounds to have his arrest and the consequential proceedings overturned. The Constitution says that a person has a right to counsil if the issue at hand is worth more than $20. It doesn't say the court must appoint one and it most certainly doesn't say a defendent requires one. Since the Constitution leaves the issue up to the defendant any action that is contrary to their desires is un-constitutional. The 10th prohibits these sorts of excess or self-appointed authority. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From totaltel at total.emap.com Mon Nov 2 19:43:46 1998 From: totaltel at total.emap.com (totaltel at total.emap.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:43:46 +0800 Subject: ITU In Knots Over Accounting Rates Message-ID: <98Nov3.035048gmt.28558@ebc-fw-01.emap.com> Welcome to the Total Telecom news update. http://www.totaltele.com ------------------------------------- today's top story:- ITU In Knots Over Accounting Rates Developed and developing countries were in a deadlock over how to reform the international accounting rate system at the International Telecommunication Union Plenipotentiary Conference in Minneapolis .... http://www.totaltele.com/news/view.asp?ArticleID=20393&Pub=tt ***************************************** Total Telecom - site update As part of a larger effort to improve the service, we have moved Total Telecom to a new server and database over the weekend. This should result in faster download times and improved searches for our readers. However, as a result, a few readers may experience a few problems entering the site. We apologize for any inconvenience. Please email us if you are experiencing any difficulties. webmaster at total.emap.com ***************************************** current Total Telecom headlines include..... Cegetel Subdued by Slow Uptake and ART's Ruling Cegetel Entreprises, the corporate user division of France's second telecoms operator, is braced for heavy losses this year due to slower than expected customer uptake and France Telecom's aggressive ........ http://www.totaltele.com/news/view.asp?ArticleID=20394&Pub=tt ------------------ Pay-Per-Slot Likely for Satellite Reform The International Telecommunication Union Plenipotentiary conference in Minneapolis will this week hear a proposal to break a 10-nation stranglehold on world satellite systems. Under the plan, still ...... http://www.totaltele.com/news/view.asp?ArticleID=20397&Pub=tt ---------------- First Pacific in Talks to Buy More PLDT Shares First Pacific Co. said it bought a "strategic stake" in Philippine Long Distance Telephone Co. and may buy more, transactions that will cost at least $724 million. First Pacific, a Hong Kong-based in http://www.totaltele.com/news/view.asp?ArticleID=20396&Pub=tt --------------- France Telecom to Sell 15% Stake of Greece's Panafon in IPO Panafon SA, Greece's largest mobile phone company, said France Telecom SA will sell a 15% stake in the company through an initial public offering that may raise as much as $600 million. Panafon, 55%-...... http://www.totaltele.com/news/view.asp?ArticleID=20395&Pub=tt ---------------- plus NTT President Apologizes for Service Break in Osaka Diax Mobile Phone Services May Not Start Until February Iridium to Begin Satellite-Phone Network Sunday AsiaSat Owners Discuss Reshuffle of Holdings: C&W May Exit Deutsche Telekom Hit by New Price War ITU Plenipot 98 Plays Paper Satellite Ping-Pong US Bids for Internet Domain Name Control .....go to the front page for the full list of headlines http://www.totaltele.com ******************************************** If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply with "Remove" in the subject line and we will automatically block you from this list. Thank you for reading Total Telecom From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Mon Nov 2 20:17:39 1998 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:17:39 +0800 Subject: s-format file converter? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811030250.UAA03074@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > From: "Lucky Green" > > Subject: s-format file converter? > > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:52:11 -0800 > > > I need to convert some files stored in Motorola s-format (widely used for > > input into EPROM burners) to a binary blob of data my debugger can read. I > > know there is a GNU utility that supports converting to and from s-format > > and a wide variety of other file formats, but a web search turned up empty. > > > > If you know where to find such a utility for UNIX, please let me know. > > Geesh. If you know it's GNU then it makes some sense to check gnu.org now > wouldn't it? Which is of course what I did before sending my inquiry to the list. Nada. > You might also want to check out the 'frankenstein' set of cross-assemblers > as they handle a wide variety of targets and file formats. Hmm, I can find them only for MSDOS. Do you have a pointer to a UNIX version? Thanks, -- Lucky Green PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 2 20:36:34 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:36:34 +0800 Subject: dbts: Lions and TEMPESTs and Black Helicopters (Oh, My!) Message-ID: <363E80C1.4084@lsil.com> > "Awwwww, C'Monnnn. Niiiice taxpayer. Staaaaay. *Don't* go anywhere. > Pleeeeease?" > *** By and large I agree with you, the fears of TotalControl(tm) are largely unfounded. Abuses do exist. Always have. *** These unregulated virtual economies need to conduct trade with ActualPhysicalSpace. The interface is where the control will be exerted. If you can't safely convert your LibertE$ to physical goods their value will be quite low. Participation will be limited. Also, as the TaxAorta becomes occluded the TaxDoctors will have to devote more energy and use more drastic methods to keep the flow going. Mike From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 2 21:51:11 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:51:11 +0800 Subject: Frankenstein should be avail. for Unix (S-Records) Message-ID: <199811030512.XAA03612@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~danf/cbm/cross-development.html > $ Cross-32 V2.0 Meta Assembler [DOS] (Universal Cross-Assemblers) > Table-based absolute macro cross assembler using manufacturer's > assembly mnemonics. Supports macros and conditional assembly. > Uses C language arithmetic and logical operators. Includes > tables for 6502, 65C02, 65816 and >40 other CPUs and can be > expanded to even more. Generates Intel hex, Motorola S hex and > binary output. Expensive (~$200). > On-line program information is available. > On-line program information is available. > (demo version) > Frankenstein Cross Assemblers [source,DOS,UNIX] (1990, Mark Zenier) > No macros, relocatable linkers, fancy print controls or > structured control statments. Source code in Yacc and C > included. Executables are called as6502, as65c00 and asr65c00. > On-line program information is available. > On-line program information is available. > Available from the C Users' Group Library, disk #335. > 901206.02/3/4, 901209.07/8> > ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 2 21:52:53 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:52:53 +0800 Subject: A Motorola site w/ potentialy relevant info (S-Records) Message-ID: <199811030510.XAA03557@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.mcu.motsps.com/freeweb/amcu_ndx.html > as-080.dp 43197 Mar 30 94 Understanding S-Records & Downloading > XASMHC11.MAC 49024 Mar 30 94 This is the Motorola Free cross- > assembler ported to the Mac by Georgia Tech. Use MacBinary to download > this Macintosh application. [Uploaded by Jim Sibigtroth.] > AN1060Q.BAS> 8083 Mar 30 94 This is the BASIC source code for AN1060. > This program allows S-records to be downloaded & programmed into a > M68HC711E9 EPROM/MCU (OTP also). This program was written in > QuickBasic and works with a MAC or a PC. [Uploaded by Jim Sibigtroth.] > as32v1-2.zip 52176 Mar 30 94 Latest rev. of CPU32 Freeware assembler > for PC. Minor bug fixes. Now generates symbol table for BD32 > background mode debugger. > asembler.arc 42839 Mar 30 94 source files for cross assemblers and > doc. > as0.c 214 Mar 30 94 --+ source code for assemblers: > eval.c 4089 Mar 30 94 | source code common to all assemblers > downld.doc 1417 Mar 30 94 1.2 Downloading S-Records Hints (RCV cmd) > downldpc.doc 20075 Mar 30 94 1.4 Download S-Recs w/IBM-PC, > Kermit/ProComm > libsrc11.arc 35692 Mar 30 94 n/a M68HC11 Cross C Compiler Library > Source The above.archive file contains all the library source files > for the HC11 Cross C Compiler (MS-DOS and System V). > sack.sa 651 Mar 30 94 1.1 S-Record Acknowledge Program (Pascal) ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 2 22:18:23 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:18:23 +0800 Subject: instruments of liberation (continuing 'fear' thread) Message-ID: <199811030549.GAA22305@replay.com> At 11:22 PM 11/1/98 -0800, Tim May wrote: >"Wired News" carried an article reporting on a plan to (somehow) spread Wired recently had pix/columns on Rivest and Schneier. This is how crypto will get into the popmind: through sophisticated deadtrees like this read by propeller heads *and* suits. The Cryptos talk of the economy, of keeping crackers out, of personal privacy. The list of good uses will grow. The Fascistas will be stuck with only their dealers and the vaporrists, vapornappers, vaporophiles they will continue to worship. Eventually, the Sheeple will grok what's being argued over. The rest depends on your optimism level. --Wasted Hellions Trace my Bugs From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 3 00:15:23 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:15:23 +0800 Subject: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811030242.UAA02938@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981102233532.008b2d80@idiom.com> At 08:42 PM 11/2/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote, though not in this order: >> (c) Definitions. - For purposes of this section - >> (2) the term ''weapon of mass destruction'' means - [...] >> (B) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or >> serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or >> impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors; >> (C) any weapon involving a disease organism; or ... >Where is the definition of 'mass' in there? Hell, just about anything >qualifies under this definition. It doesn't even require the death of 1 >single individual (it doesn't even require it to be lethal). My reading is the same as yours - the law was written carelessly, and wrong (unless JYA forgot the paragraph defining "mass" as "intended to kill more than N people", but it doesn't look like it.) That means that any chemical weapon, including your can of mace or pepper spray, that might be construed as causing "serious bodily injury", makes you a terrorist using weapons of mass destruction. Might get worse - lead _is_ toxic, and causes injury by impact. It's a bad law, and it's going to be abused, and this case is a great one for the Feds to use to set bad precedent with, since the Republic of Texas are a bunch of incompetent wackos. >> CHAPTER 113B - TERRORISM >> Sec. 2332a. Use of weapons of mass destruction >> (a) Offense Against a National of the United States or Within the >> United States. - A person who, without lawful authority, uses, >> threatens, or attempts or conspires to use, a weapon of mass >> destruction, including any biological agent, toxin, or vector (as >> those terms are defined in section 178) - > >Where is 'lawful authority' defined? Not sure, but it means that the Feds aren't terrorists if _they_ threaten or conspire to use weapons of mass destruction, but you would be if you did. It also probably means that foreign governments aren't covered here, but foreign NGOs are, e.g. the IRA. >> interstate commerce The standard clause used to give the Feds jurisdiction over things; given Roosevelt-era courts deciding that a farmer feeding his own grain to his own hogs affects interstate commerce, surely email or the World Wide Web counts as interstate, as does killing anybody who might cross state lines or buy some product that does. (Of course, given the number of politicians who are for sale, removing a few of them from the market can pretty legitimately be called affecting interstate commerce :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From narry at geocities.com Tue Nov 3 02:56:47 1998 From: narry at geocities.com (Narayan Raghu) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 18:56:47 +0800 Subject: new 448 bit key by Indian firm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <363E2E8F.EE570559@geocities.com> Hello, Sorry for any cross-posting. Just thought this group would be interested in this new s/w. The most startling thing about it is the price Rs. 1,650. (approx US$ 40) per copy ... I'll be at the Bangalore IT fair morrow, and will try to give a first hand update of this stuff after meeting with the reps. http://www.timesofindia.com/031198/03mban19.htm Indian firm unveils 448-bit encryption package It is called EMD Armor -- an award-winning encryption software package using a powerful 448-bit key, developed by an Indian company. It beats the United States at its own game, for, even today, US companies are not allowed to export encryption software that uses keys higher than 128 bits. -- snip ---- EMD Armor, which is used to secure your personal computer, also goes by the name of Sigma 2000. It has picked up the Editors Choice award. The product range covers security for PCs, e-mail, networks. `Our product combines the highest key strength, fast encryption speed (60 MB per minute), and online encryption. That means non-encyrpted data is never stored on your hard disk. Anything that is there is encrypted. Complete security,'' says Kundu. -- snip -- K. Kundu, Signitron India Director, an IIT Kharagpur alumni, told The Times of India that the key algorithm they have used is `Blowfish', developed by cryptography guru Bruce Schneir. regards, narry From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 3 05:56:17 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:56:17 +0800 Subject: dbts: Lions and TEMPESTs and Black Helicopters (Oh, My!) In-Reply-To: <363E80C1.4084@lsil.com> Message-ID: At 11:04 PM -0500 on 11/2/98, Michael Motyka lobs a low, slow one, over the plate: > These unregulated virtual economies need to conduct trade with > ActualPhysicalSpace. Oh. That's easy. Check out the essay section of for a good prima facie underwriting model for digital bearer instruments, expecially the model map. Render unto FinCEN. No problem. Flatland can't reach the sky no matter how hard they try. (hey. I'm rapping... pbbbt. tht. pbbbt. pbbbt. tht... :-)) Cheers, Bob ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 3 05:57:10 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:57:10 +0800 Subject: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) Message-ID: <199811031315.HAA04306@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 23:35:32 -0800 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: RE: Bic-Assassins Convicted (fwd) > >Where is 'lawful authority' defined? > > Not sure, but it means that the Feds aren't terrorists if _they_ > threaten or conspire to use weapons of mass destruction, > but you would be if you did. It also probably means that > foreign governments aren't covered here, but foreign NGOs are, > e.g. the IRA. That's truly funny.... "We the people in order to form a more perfect union...." How does the federal government gain priviliges and immunities (ala 16th) that aren't defined in the Constitution or an amendment? (see 9th and 10th) > >> interstate commerce > The standard clause used to give the Feds jurisdiction over things; > given Roosevelt-era courts deciding that a farmer feeding his own grain > to his own hogs affects interstate commerce, surely email or the > World Wide Web counts as interstate, as does killing anybody > who might cross state lines or buy some product that does. > (Of course, given the number of politicians who are for sale, > removing a few of them from the market can pretty legitimately > be called affecting interstate commerce :-) Read the last sentence of the rubber-clause.....any action or law that derives from it is required to respect the remainder of the Constitution in full (simply crossing a state border doesn't annul the Constitution). Since that includes the 9th and 10th (in toto) they have themselves a quandry. Personaly, I would trust an individual handling these technologies before I'd trust a bunch of power-happy gun-toting morons acting in concert who's answer to everything is "my boss told me to do it" and willingly deny their duties as individual citizens in order to play their three-initial games. I saw a comment the other day that the government (those who support these world views I suppose) doesn't trust the people. I wonder why after reading laws that are this poorly constructed. Whatever the hell the intent was it wasn't to protect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 3 06:13:44 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:13:44 +0800 Subject: VANGUARD: An Election About Nothing? (fwd) Message-ID: <199811031321.HAA04373@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Subject: VANGUARD: An Election About Nothing? > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 00:35:09 -0600 > From: Vanguard > > AN ELECTION ABOUT NOTHING? > 30 October 1998 > > Copyright 1998, Rod D. Martin > > "The Vanguard of the Revolution" > National Edition > An election is at hand, and yet again, the vast majority will not > vote. Just as they have shown a complete disinterest in the > character of the President, they will Tuesday show a total lack of > concern for the fate of their country. For them, this is the > Seinfeld election: an election about nothing. > > It is just as well that such nincompoops won't vote; and yet it is > a sorry commentary on the state of our body politic that so few > understand, that so few even care. Another fatal disaster just > this month, this time in Taft, California, shows us again just why > it is so tragic. Perhaps they're not stupid. Perhaps their not nin-compoops, but rather you are for assigning any value to the entire process. It is a standard litany of conventional science to choose the lesser of two evils. Perhaps the lesser of two evils in this corrupted, Constitutionaly bereft system is *NOT TO PARTICIPATE*. Sine it obviously doesn't matter who wins, since the mighty spectre of compromise will dilute any real difference into a verbal shell game devoid of meaning. Maby deToquville (sorry for spelling - early morning) was right about mediocrity being the result of democracy, except in one fine point. It won't be the people as a whole but rather those who are too stupid and wedded to outmoded ideals to change. The social and political dinosaurs if you will. Maby the polls where drunk dwarves win over 'serious' candidates is actualy demonstrating the absurdity of those who insist their issue are serious. Perhaps people are finaly seeing that these nin-compoops who want the political power in this country are simply blind to a social and economic change in the winds. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Tue Nov 3 07:29:20 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:29:20 +0800 Subject: Is CP mail to me bouncing? In-Reply-To: <36421188.327490806@roadrunner.pictel.com> Message-ID: <199811031447.IAA15402@manifold.algebra.com> Francis Litterio wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > In the last few days I've ceased receiving CP email from algebra.com. > Am I still subscribed? Is mail to me bouncing back to you? My ISP > has some aggressive anti-spam measures that sometimes bounce mail from > lists. Yes, your problems in receiving cypherpunks mail are due to your ISP. Please change your ISP, as the current one cares more about the antispam crusade than about their customers receiving email. - Igor. From jp at pld.ttu.ee Tue Nov 3 09:07:56 1998 From: jp at pld.ttu.ee (Jyri Poldre) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:07:56 +0800 Subject: hardware sharing question In-Reply-To: <199811020422.XAA11460@cti06.citenet.net> Message-ID: Dear C'punks, There are many different hardware accelerator devices available for speeding up the modmul operation - The nFast and FastMap to name a few. I am about to build a new one. This unit should be: 1. Expandable A. No harm if exponent is larger than N bits - just slower B. As much parralel calculations as possible - add ALU and get faster results 2. Low cost- keep only the heavy iron in the card - all other is ok to do using host CPU. This should also enable to build the device for several applications - After all I want only to replace a call to some mathemathical subroutine. To realize it the Residue Number System, with some additional memory seems like a good choiche. The system will eventually consist of a card with slots for addtional ALU and RAM modules. You can do away with only one ALU - tha base kit, but it will consume bus bandwidth. Add memory and you are free from that limitation. Slow? Add ALU units. But interestingly my main problem is not about cryptography :) I would like to know, if there are possible other places, where integer arithmetics could be used. Maybe A world would be a better place with fast matrix multiplication? So people. I would very much appreciate, if you could tell me about the ways we could use this integer calculator for other applications as well. I will be using RNS, what gives us a lot of multiplications/additions in parralel. Thank you, Jyri Poldre, Tallinn Technical University. From stuffed at stuffed.net Wed Nov 4 01:15:59 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED WED NOV 4) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:15:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From ericm at lne.com Tue Nov 3 09:55:43 1998 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:55:43 +0800 Subject: VANGUARD: An Election About Nothing? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811031321.HAA04373@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811031700.JAA18950@slack.lne.com> Jim Choate writes: > It is a standard litany of conventional science to choose the lesser of two > evils. Perhaps the lesser of two evils in this corrupted, Constitutionaly > bereft system is *NOT TO PARTICIPATE*. Sine it obviously doesn't matter who > wins, since the mighty spectre of compromise will dilute any real difference > into a verbal shell game devoid of meaning. Maby deToquville (sorry for > spelling - early morning) was right about mediocrity being the result of > democracy, except in one fine point. It won't be the people as a whole but > rather those who are too stupid and wedded to outmoded ideals to change. The > social and political dinosaurs if you will. Not voting tells the current politicians that you don't care what they do to you. They'd be happier if only 5% of the electorate bothered to vote- that's fewer people to market to. If you don't like the Republicrats in office, then vote for what the media denigrates as a 'fringe cantidate'. If they lose, which is likely because Americans tend to want to vote for the winner, then you'll be satisfied because you voted against the idiot in office. If they happen to win, then you'll either get someone wiht some new ideas which (hopefully) you agree with, or someone so seriously wierd that they paralyze government for their entire term. Here in California we have Green, Libertarian, Peace and Freedom, Reform and Natural Law candidates for almost all the state positions. The Natural Law people are so wierd that it's very tempting to vote for them, here's a sample: Jane Ann Bialosky, Natural Law candidate for Secretary of State: "My ideal is to bring fullfillment to the electoral idea, a wise electorate. Government is the reflection of collective conciousness.... Our government should sustain the influence of harmony, positivity, wholeness, in which no one can go wrong and everyone will spontaneously be right... The government of nature governs from the holistic nasis of creation according to the principle of least action.... Everything must be held up by natural law. Another Natural Law candidate for state Controller: "My vision is for prevention-oriented government, conflict-free politics and proven solutions to America's economic problems by cutting taxes deeply abd responsibly while simultaneously balancing the budget through cost-effective solutions to America's problems, rather than by cutting essential services." I was thinking as I read the voter pamphlet that an Absurdist party would be quite amusing and would point out the silliness of the current politicians. But I don't think I could come up with anything as wacky as the Natural Law people can. > Maby the polls where drunk dwarves win over 'serious' candidates is actualy > demonstrating the absurdity of those who insist their issue are serious. That's my point. Absurdisim sends a much stronger message than just not voting. Voting for serious 'fringe' candidates (i.e. Libertarians) also sends a message. Not voting just says "I don't care what you do to me". Of course the whole thing _could_ be rigged- last night the ABC web site had pages up with _today's_ voting results, with 100% of the "precincts reporting". http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/elections98/results/senate.html http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/elections98/results/governors.html http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/elections98/results/issues.html They're not up now, but I managed to get a copy of the senate "results" yesterday (10/2) at 18:40 PST. It'll be interesting to see how well they match the "results" from today. A copy of the page I saved is at www.lne.com/ericm/senate.html -- Eric Murray N*Able Technologies www.nabletech.com (email: ericm at the sites lne.com or nabletech.com) PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From da5id at simons-rock.edu Tue Nov 3 10:21:38 1998 From: da5id at simons-rock.edu (da5id at simons-rock.edu) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 02:21:38 +0800 Subject: [Fwd: ...prolonged, unintentional and inadvertent...] Message-ID: <363F3CED.A5A4F1DF@simons-rock.edu> To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org Subject: ...prolonged, unintentional and inadvertent... From: glen mccready Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 11:30:26 -0500 Delivered-To: da5id at simons-rock.edu Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:32:36 -0500 Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org Resent-Message-ID: <"CF3sc1.0.UA3.D0pFs"@shell> Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org Forwarded-by: Nev Dull Forwarded-by: "Geoffrey S. Knauth" Forwarded-by: Tom Schuneman PARIS (Reuters) - Electronic trading may be cheap, but leaning on the keyboard can be costly. A mystery plunge in the value of French 10-year bond futures on July 23 was triggered by a bank trader at Salomon Brothers in London who accidentally and repeatedly hit the "Instant Sell" button, investigators said Thursday. A wave of 145 separate sell orders sent the price diving on electronic screens. "The disputed trades arose as a result of the prolonged, unintentional and inadvertent operation of the 'Instant Sell' key," said an investigation by computer software firm Cap Gemini and security group Kroll Associates. Salomon Brothers declined to comment on any losses. From brownrk1 at texaco.com Tue Nov 3 12:07:18 1998 From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 04:07:18 +0800 Subject: VANGUARD: An Election About Nothing? (fwd) Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F8561@MSX11002> Eric Murray wrote: > Not voting tells the current politicians that you > don't care what they do to you. They'd be happier > if only % of the electorate bothered to vote that's > fewer people to market to. Yep look at it as a market. People who don't or can't vote don't count; jist as people who don't or can't pay don't count in a shop. If you vote or at least if you give a credible threat of possibly voting they might notice. Otherwise you are invisible. > I was thinking as I read the voter pamphlet that an > Absurdist party would be quite amusing and would > point out the silliness of the current politicians. > But I don't think I could come up with anything as > wacky as the Natural Law people can. We used to get "Natural Law" candidates in UK as well. Not so many last time round, maybe they finally spent George Harrison's money. The best track-record for an Absurdist Party in this country is the Monster Raving Looney Party, which used to be mostly Screaming Lord Sutch who stood for parliament again and again but has recently taken on some sort of continuing existence (see http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/loony/) and even has a few town councillors in various places. Sutch may well have almost invented an electoral version of the cypherpunk assasination prototcol - bookies were quoting odds of 15 million to one against him winning a seat once and he pointed out that if he could find a way to pay voters off anonymously he could bet on himself and bribe the electorate with his winnings... I think the odds fell after that. Of course the possibility of easy anonymous bribery makes traditional electoral law much, much harder to enforce (see, this is relevant to Cypherpunks). There are some fun looking parties around. The line up for the UK General Election on the Glorious First of May was (in order of number of seats gained): Labour Party, Conservative Party, Liberals, Ulster Unionist Party, Scottish Nationalist Party, Plaid Cymru, Social Democratic and Labour Party, Democratic Unionist, Sinn Fein, United Kingdom Unionist, Madam Speaker Seeking Reelection and Martin Bell standing as an independent; all of whom won something. And Alliance Party of Northern Ireland, British National Party, Rainbow Dream Ticket Party, Green Party, Liberal Party, Mebyon Kernow,Monster Raving Loony Party,National Democrats, Northern Ireland Women's Coalition, Natural Law Party , ProLife Alliance ,Popular Unionist Party, Referendum Party Socialist Labour Party, Socialist Party, Scottish Social Alliance, UK Independence Party, Workers Party, Workers Revolutionary Party; who didn't win anything but all seem to have some sort of continuing existence as parties And Anti Sleaze/Corruption, AntiConservative, Sportsman's Alliance: Anyone But Mellor, Lord Byro versus the Scallywag Tories, AntiPoliticians, Antimajority Democracy, Independent Democracy Means Consulting the People, People in Slough Shunning Useless Politicians, Common Sense Sick of Politicians Party, None of the Above, Drugs Hemp/Cannabis Platforms, New Millenium, New Way, Hemp Candidate, Hemp Coalition, Legalise Cannabis Party, Ind AE Independent Anti Europe, British Home Rule , British Isles People First, Independent Conservative, Independant Christian, Christian Party, Christian Nationalist, Christian Democrat, Christian Unity, Independent Communist, Communist Party of Britain, Communist League, Independent British Democratic Party, Social Democrat, English Democratic Party, Rennaisence Democrat, Independent Democrat, Freedom/Justice/Rights Platform, Justice Party, Freedom Party, Justice and Renewal Independent Party, Pacifist for Peace, Justice, Cooperation, Environment, Charter for Basic Rights, Fellowship Party for Peace and Justice, Human Rights ', British Freedom and Individual Rights, Far Left, Radical Alternative, Building a Fair Society, Full Employment Party, Socialist Party of Great Britain, Socialist Equality Party, Independent Far Right, National Front, Third Way, Independent Green, Scrapit Stop Avon Ring Road, Newbury Bypass Stop Construction Now, Independent Liberal Democrat, Top Choice Liberal Democrat, Independent Labour, and Local Independent; who all seem to have been invented for the occasion. Make up your mind as to which, if any, are absurdist. I suspect none of them bribed the voters much. Roll on the transferable vote! Ken Brown & the Disclaimers. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 3 12:07:51 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 04:07:51 +0800 Subject: VANGUARD: An Election About Nothing? (fwd) Message-ID: <199811031855.MAA05131@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Eric Murray > Subject: Re: VANGUARD: An Election About Nothing? (fwd) > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:00:34 -0800 (PST) > Not voting tells the current politicians that you don't care > what they do to you. They'd be happier if only 5% of the electorate > bothered to vote- that's fewer people to market to. That should set off flags for truly honest politicians (talk about a non sequeter). > If you don't like the Republicrats in office, then vote for > what the media denigrates as a 'fringe cantidate'. If they > lose, which is likely because Americans tend to want to vote > for the winner, then you'll be satisfied because you voted > against the idiot in office. If they happen to win, then > you'll either get someone wiht some new ideas which (hopefully) you > agree with, or someone so seriously wierd that they paralyze > government for their entire term. This of course assumes that there is some faith in the system. > The Natural Law people are so wierd that it's very tempting to Weird? You're talking to somebody who lives in Austin, Tx. The capital of weird amond weird....;) But the point isn't to vote for just anybody. I keep having this echo of Federalist #5 (I think that's the one about political parties) going through my head. The problem with our system is that we need a more representative form of government. It shouldn't be simply a football game (which leads to a related but deep issue about American psychology itself) but a fair and honest representation of the peoples desire. The only things I can find that would make such '3rd party' strategies work is if the representation was done by percentage as in Englands parliament. > That's my point. Absurdisim sends a much stronger message > than just not voting. Voting for serious 'fringe' candidates > (i.e. Libertarians) also sends a message. Not voting just > says "I don't care what you do to me". I'll think about this one. Several points come to mind and I'm not sure how to express them at this point. The point I can address is that it isn't that people voted for a drunk dwarve. It was the issue was so trivial or irrelevant that it didn't matter who goes in there, it simply doesn't matter. In that case the only answer is to opt out and spend ones time dealing with the issues and problems that do matter. The question is deeper than simply participation, it's addresses the entire point of the system that needs our participation in the first place. > last night the ABC web site had pages up with _today's_ > voting results, with 100% of the "precincts reporting". I'd guess they were testing. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 3 12:32:08 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 04:32:08 +0800 Subject: airline id In-Reply-To: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F853F@MSX11002> Message-ID: At 6:46 AM -0500 10/29/98, Brown, R Ken wrote: >problem. On trains, unlike planes, you keep your luggage with you. > >Also people *like* trains. They are cute. Even in America you have >hordes of trainspotters and steam enthusiasts and model-builders and all >the rest. It always amazes me that bookshops have more shelves of >hobbyist books about trains than about cars, but only about 15% of the >population regularly travel by train and about 60% by car. (In England - >I guess in the USA that's more like 5% and 85% - and before you say that That actually may be the reason. I have traveled a good deal on both trains, by Auto, and by bicycle, and well, Trains suck. Cars suck slightly less (execpt in a few cases). It is easiest to get romantic about something you don't have to fight with on a regular basis. Ken Brown > >(who prefers bicycles to trains but had to use the train to get to work >today because of a broken spoke he is incapable of fixing. He only does >software) I have 3 bikes. Hell, a spare bike is cheaper than a spare tire. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 3 12:52:57 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 04:52:57 +0800 Subject: don't use passwords as private keys (was Re: Using a passwordas a private key.) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981028012129.008334d0@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 4:20 PM -0500 10/29/98, Adam Back wrote: >Some people have been talking about using passwords as private keys. >(By using the passphrase as seed material for regenerating the private >and public key). > >I don't think this is a good idea. > >You can't forget passphrases. You can destroy private key files. > Yes, you can. I had an art director forget his 4 days running, AFTER LUNCH. He remembered it in the morning, but after lunch he couldn't. It wasn't a "passphrase" either, it was a _very_ weak password. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From explorer at netcom.com Wed Nov 4 05:22:07 1998 From: explorer at netcom.com (explorer at netcom.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 05:22:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811041321.FAA05928@toad.com> 11/04/98 INTERNET NEWS 8 Pine Circle Dr. Silicon Valley,Ca. USA INTERNET NEWS/Y2K (YEAR 2000 SOLUTION) Most of the information from the silicon valley is obtained from the local pubs/bars. Un-named sources discussing the Y2K problem at the local brew revealed, that 2 of the big valley software manufacturers are in a bidding war for software technology created by a small publicly traded company OTC-BB symbol:"TCFG" that is in the process of obtaining a patent. This 3 year old emerging growth company has tested and out performed the "Big Boys" with a system industry experts consider to be a technological breakthrough! Several rogue ex-employees of the "giants" joined this company and claims abound about their success. If truth is stronger than fiction then "TCFG" is going to play with the big boys. We all know the Y2K problem and what the real solution would mean to all of us $$! How much will they pay "TCFG"? Back to the pub friday evening for more info... From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 3 14:45:38 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:45:38 +0800 Subject: JIM MARTIN---NC Supreme Court (fwd) Message-ID: <199811032150.WAA15132@replay.com> This spam was received earlier today. One has to wonder just how stupid this guy is. Hint: I live at least a thousand miles from North Carolina. This guy is running for a position as judge, but thinks that it is more important to tell people about how many kids he has as opposed to his actual qualifications for the office. He might also want to learn how to use English, that people in the other 49 states cannot vote for or against him, and what the term "theft of service" means before he attempts to occupy such an office. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ineedyourhelp at yourvote.com Subject: JIM MARTIN---NC Supreme Court Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:42:32 JIM MARTIN NC Supreme Court My Friend: I needy Your Help when you vote on Tuesday. Your vote for me to represent you on the NC Supreme Court would really be appreciated by me. I'm not a politican. I have a Family, 3 kids in college and I can and will make a difference if you give me the chance to work for you.. When elected, I promise you that my Door will always be open TO YOU. I Thank You, Jim Martin From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Tue Nov 3 15:24:32 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:24:32 +0800 Subject: don't use passwords as private keys (was Re: Using a passwordas a private key.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811032218.WAA22735@server.eternity.org> Petro writes: > >You can't forget passphrases. You can destroy private key files. > > Yes, you can. I had an art director forget his 4 days running, > AFTER LUNCH. He remembered it in the morning, but after lunch he couldn't. With the kind of "memory aid" we were talking about here (legal threat, 1 years imprisonment for contempt to aid memory, perhaps torture) he might just have remembered it. If he didn't he'd likely get a year or so to try remember it in prison on contempt charges for not handing it over. Deleting keys on the other hand, contempt would be a waste of time, you're never going to remember what you don't know, and they ought to convincable of this if you can show the software documentation describing forward secret key material deletion. > It wasn't a "passphrase" either, it was a _very_ weak password. Also note that it is not necessary to remember the password precisely, just narrow the search space down to provide a viable dictionary attack of 56 bits or whatever. The art directors password sounds like it was already below that. Adam -- print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981103151311.00984100@idiom.com> At 09:00 AM 11/3/98 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: >The Natural Law people are so wierd that it's very tempting to vote for them, One reason their rhetoric looks so weird is because it's avoiding coming straight out and saying "Our plan for fixing society is to have the government fund teaching of Transcendental Meditation(r) to everybody, and once everybody is doing TM, they'll all be healthier, better behaved, and will do things in accordance with The Laws Of Nature As Taught By the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, so the problems of the world will all fix themselves." Meanwhile, of course, they describe their national health plans as using "Proven Scientific Principles" (TM having been proven to fix everything) and their education plans using similar obfuscatory rhetoric. (On the other hand, I haven't heard them saying that the TM-Siddhi program will let them replace the Air Force with levitation yet; they tend to take the view that calmness and niceness will scientifically reduce the need to shoot people, which I can't fault them for too much...) It's basically a wimpier version of traditional Western moral reformers pushing the view that if government gets rid of Sin, society will work better, but getting rid of ignorance is usually a "kinder, gentler" process, not that you want to tell the ignorant what you're doing, because they may think that offering fruit and flowers to a guru's picture and chanting the name of a fire-god while breathing quietly is not only a strange way to fix ignorance but is an inappropriate thing for governments to spend their money on, especially in the name of Science. Most of the Natural Law Party candidates I've talked to, except when they're on direct meditation-revenue-enhancement topics, tend to be reasonable folks, somewhere in the liberal-to-libertarian range, thinking the government should mostly let people do what they want, which will naturally lead to calmness and niceness as they follow natural law, and a lot of the TM folks, especially around Maharishi University in Iowa, have gone into business for themselves, so they prefer lower government interference and red tape. On the other hand, like any small party trying to get enough candidates to run full slates for office, some of their folks really are flakes :-) I like to believe that Libertarians do better on that score, but we've got our share as well, and the only real way out of it is to grow large enough that the supply of people willing to run includes enough competent people. On the other hand, it's still tempting to see about putting Frank Zappa on the ballot. He is a bit metabolically challenged these days, but it wouldn't bother him much, and he's still be a better candidate than most live Democrats or Republicans. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From service at angelfire.com Tue Nov 3 15:58:22 1998 From: service at angelfire.com (service at angelfire.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:58:22 +0800 Subject: Seeking Commission Based Sales Representatives and Distributors Message-ID: <199811032324.PAA12558@toad.com> Hi We are seeking commission-based sales representatives and distributors in your geographic market to spearhead the national roll-out for our Consumer Smart Product line. Whether you are a student or a senior citizen, everyone is qualified to earn extra income within our company. Could you use extra income? Are you tired of get rich schemes? If you can answer YES to these questions, then this is the perfect opportunity for you. This is not a pyramid or get rich quick scheme. This is a serious, legitmate business opportunity. We offer Consumer Smart Products at prices everyone can afford! Our products are useful for everyone and they make perfect gifts! All our products emphasize "Quality, Function and Value" For additional information, please reply to this email with more info in your subject heading. Only serious applicants need apply. Thank You From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 3 17:52:49 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:52:49 +0800 Subject: MIB Subpoenas In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981028234903.034b1ad0@rboc.net> Message-ID: <199811040107.CAA03703@replay.com> > Actually I was thinking of trying to get ahold of Jim Bell and get > permission to publish Assassination Politics in Hardback along with other > info. btw: Winn Schwartau (infowar.com) has published the AP essay in a book. From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net Tue Nov 3 20:12:04 1998 From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:12:04 +0800 Subject: FUD vs LINUX Message-ID: MICROSOFT EXECS WORRY ABOUT FREE SOFTWARE MOVEMENT An internal Microsoft memo written by one of that company's software engineers indicates that Microsoft is concerned with developing strategies for competing against free programs that have been gaining popularity with software developers, such as the operating system Linux. The memorandum warns that the usual Microsoft marketing strategy known as FUD (an acronym for fear, uncertainty, and doubt) won't work against developers of free software, who are part of the O.S.S. (open-source software) movement that makes source code readily available to anyone for improvement and testing. The memo (http://www.opensource.org/halloween.html) says: "The ability of the O.S.S. process to collect and harness the collective I.Q. of thousands of individuals across the Internet is simply amazing. More importantly, O.S.S. evangelization scales with the size of the Internet much faster than our own evangelization efforts appear to scale." (New York Times 3 Nov 98) From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph Tue Nov 3 22:35:47 1998 From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:35:47 +0800 Subject: knapsack... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could someone tell(give) me where to get a source code for the knapsack algo (w/ backtracking). I am going to "parallelize" it. (suggestions/comments ?) Thank you. From stocknews11_5_98iil at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 4 15:31:10 1998 From: stocknews11_5_98iil at worldnet.att.net (stocknews11_5_98iil at worldnet.att.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:31:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: URGENT BUY ALERT!! Message-ID: <> Company: Mark I Industries Symbol: M K I I (mkii) Price: 1/4 ($.25/share) M K I I has announced an affiliation with one of their subsidiaries and AT&T. Management projects a $100 million revenue goal at their current rate of growth with "the company's stock to trade in the $4 range". M K I I is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information on M K I I go to: http://quote.yahoo.com From stocknews11_5_98iil at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 4 15:31:10 1998 From: stocknews11_5_98iil at worldnet.att.net (stocknews11_5_98iil at worldnet.att.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:31:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: URGENT BUY ALERT!! Message-ID: <> Company: Mark I Industries Symbol: M K I I (mkii) Price: 1/4 ($.25/share) M K I I has announced an affiliation with one of their subsidiaries and AT&T. Management projects a $100 million revenue goal at their current rate of growth with "the company's stock to trade in the $4 range". M K I I is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information on M K I I go to: http://quote.yahoo.com From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph Wed Nov 4 01:25:16 1998 From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:25:16 +0800 Subject: knapsack... Message-ID: Could someone tell(give) me where to get a source code for the knapsack algo (w/ backtracking). I am going to "parallelize" it. (suggestions/comments ?) Thank you. From wabe at home.com Wed Nov 4 01:47:18 1998 From: wabe at home.com (wabe) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:47:18 +0800 Subject: JIM MARTIN---NC Supreme Court (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811032150.WAA15132@replay.com> Message-ID: <364045D4.E486986A@home.com> He's probably better qualified than the people who get elected. -wabe From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 4 02:35:30 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:35:30 +0800 Subject: problems with the concept Message-ID: <199811040950.KAA15927@replay.com> > http://www.jya.com/hr4655-wjc.htm > TEXT: CLINTON ON SIGNING THE "IRAQ LIBERATION ACT OF 1998" OCT. 31 Mr. Clinton would seem to have a problem with the concept of "covert" as it applies to personal and international actions. The MIB who visited the radio astronomer who thought he discovered extraterrestrial "intelligence", when it was just a classified intelligence satellite, have a "subtlety" problem. [see http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/7193/cancelled.html (also stored on www.jya.com/crypto.htm)] --Haste Orwellians Deride my Thugs From q1w2e3 at pacific.net.sg Wed Nov 4 06:42:15 1998 From: q1w2e3 at pacific.net.sg (zËRö) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:42:15 +0800 Subject: is it real? Message-ID: <36413D1D.3C6@pacific.net.sg> >>for your info, please. >> >>>>Just in case....... >>>>......... basically.... don't install Windows 98 ..... since they >have >>>>this "added" function..... =) >>>> >>>> Microsoft slapped two more lawsuit against one teenager and one >>>>retired worker for using pirated Windows 98 software. >>>> >>>>For your information on how Microsoft actually trace PIRATED / >>>>COPIED / UNLICENSED Windows 98: >>>> >>>>Whenever you logon into the internet, during the verifying >>>>password duration. Your ISP (Internet Service Provider >>>>eg:SingNET,PacNET,CyberNET,SwiftNET) will download a >>>>SUB-REGISTRY ENCRYPTED HEXADECIMAL (containing all your >>>>PROGRAMS serial numbers installed into Win98!!) file from >>>>your Windows 98 registry. Then they send this SUB-REGISTRY to >>>>Microsoft for verification. And ONLY Microsoft knows how >>>>to decode this encypted hexadecimal file. >>>> >>>>If Microsoft verified that the serial numbers are authentic, >>>>then they WILL REGISTER THOSE NUMBERS FOR YOU >>>>A-U-T-O-M-A-T-C-A-L-L-Y !!! >>>> >>>>And if Microsoft denied those serial numbers, then they will send >>>>an E-Mail to the ISP you dialled into and your ISP will start >>>>tracing everyone who logons to their systems. That's why during >>>>sometime for no reason your internet started slowing down. >>>>And if your ISP verified that the SUB-REGISTRY ENCYPTED HEXADECIMAL >>>>file is yours, they will send your information over to Microsoft >>>>Singapore. And there they will decide whether to take actions or not. >>>> >>>>There is already 54 cases in Singapore regarding uses of PIRATE >>>>/ COPIED / UNLICENSED Windows 98. >>>> >>>>I do not wish to see any of my friends get into this million dollar >>>>tangle from Bill Gates, not that I hate this guy, but it really >>>>sucks when they made such anti-piracy move into the software itself >>>>- thus forcing everyone to buy Microsoft original's Windows 98, if >>>>not they'll slap you with a lawsuit. >>>> >>>>Forward this mail to as many people you know, and who knows >>>>you may just save one of your friends from getting sued by Microsoft. >>>> >>>> From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 4 07:05:25 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:05:25 +0800 Subject: Hayek and Foucault Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 04:27:52 EST Reply-To: Hayek Related Research Sender: Hayek Related Research From: Stephen Carson Subject: Re: Hayek and Foucault To: HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU Clearly, Hayek's analysis of power & the state has been superseded by a far more nuanced view. But, just for old time's sake, I would like to try arguing that Hayek's (and, in fact, the Old Whig/classical liberal) perspective may still have something to offer us that these new views, as explicated by Williams & Davis, don't seem to have. Please chalk up unrelated attempts to defend Hayek to my current fascination with "pietas", now that I've finally figured out what my Latin teacher meant by that. Julietwill at AOL.COM (Juliet Williams) wrote: >given everything Hayek knew about the perils facing the planning state, he >nonetheless feared it. Hayek's own arguments about the obstacles to >planning and centralizing power should have suggested to him that the real >danger in the future lies not with a centralized state (which is doomed to >fail) but rather with a government that recognizes the need to >decentralize its power in order to maintain hegemony. Then Hayek might >have understood that a state which dissipates and, hence, masks its power >can threaten liberty equally if not more so than a state which tries to >maximize its direct control. Hayek was perfectly positioned to >understand, as Foucault did, that total state poses much less of a threat >in these times than does the post-modern one in which state power is so >thoroughly diffused as to be unrecognizable. Perhaps I'm thinking about the wrong time horizon, but it seems to me that the 170 million or so that were marched out to the killing fields in this century might have had some not entirely irrelevant fears of the "planning state". Certainly, despite my understanding of the inherent instability of the Total State, I thank God regularly that the US hasn't yet gone through that awkward transition period between the birth of the Total State & its demise. Foucault is probably correct that we are beyond the centralized state. But I can't help recalling to mind my re-reading the other night of the first chapter of R. J. Rummel's _Death By Government_ in which he details the numerous slaughters (most by centralized states) that have occurred throughout history prior to the 20th century. I hope very much my pessimism about human nature will be disproven, but I think I'll keep my eyes open just in case. >Foucault thus offers us something Hayek does not, namely, an imperative to >resist power. Hayek is primarily concerned not with promoting resistance, >but rather with preventing the need for it in the first place. It is true >that Hayek concedes a place for participation by his admission that >democracy is one of the most important safeguards of freedom (LLL3, 5). > But Hayek hardly offers a resounding endorsement of participatory >politics. In his words, democracy is one of those paramount though >negative values, comparable to sanitary precautions against the plague. Given all this I'm not quite sure what to make of Hayek's personal efforts, like the Mont Pelerin Society, or of the rumours that Hayek's writings have had & continue to have an influence on those suffering under totalitarianism & looking for a sign of hope. To be sure, this may be very distant from the sort of participatory politics that Foucault understands to be effective, but it seems unfair to say that Hayek had no strategy of resistance at all. My own reading of Hayek is of a man who was (since roughly 1922) engaged in a lifelong resistance against state power. Admittedly, his strategy may seem extremely subtle & long-term, but I might even go so far as to claim that his strategy has already had some effectiveness in its own small way... And that his intention was that its greatest impact wouldn't hit until well after his death. daviserik at HOTMAIL.COM (Erik Davis) wrote: >Liberals in general tend to limit discussion of "power" to discussion of >the state, and perhaps Hayek often did the same. One might even say that, in the context of a classical liberal political discussion, the term "power" is short for "state power", (or, perhaps, coercive power). >This will seem paradoxical to a liberal--and even more so to a >conservative (esp. those of Hobbesian persuasion)--because if the rule >of law must ultimately be "enforced" endogenously then this means >that--if it were ever to be completely upheld--one could say (1) that >the state will cease to exist [because there would not be a need for >exogenous enforcement of rules] or (2) that the "state" will be ALL >PERVASIVE [because every agent is committed to the rules]. (Certainly, >just what is "endogenous" and what is "exogenous" should itself be >brought into question--that would be Foucault's point, no?). The >liberal will say (1), the postmodernist will say (2). It's probably just six of one, half dozen of another, as you imply. Though it occurs to me that Rummel's particular concern about the state, (that it will slaughter its citizens and whoever else comes under its power), would be allayed in the situation described. So in this particular sense, (1) might be the most useful claim to be made. It further occurs to me that if Rummel is right, that a society in which the rule of law is diffused & widely practiced will not kill its citizens, then would could conjecture that such a society might even afford more liberties than just to retain one's life. >If we read Hayek with (2) in mind, Hayek does at times seem to >politicize EVERYTHING. For example, in his "Why I am Not a >Conservative", the Party of Life is not tied to a state. > >I wanted to emphasize this in my earlier post (in reply to Gus DiZerega >and Stephen Carson) by pointing out the analogies between common law >(tied to state action) and custom (not necessarily tied to the state). >Common law is a system of precedents which determines where and when >force can be legitimately applied; customs ("rituals" [INSTITUTIONS! >{see below}]) function in a completely analogous way. The POLITICAL >character of these customs (as, in one form, a "perverse system of >rituals")--and of challenges to them--is precisely the argument of >Vaclav Havel's THE POWER OF THE POWERLESS. I think this is an excellent point. Perhaps it's just taste, but I'm a bit bothered by speaking of the political character of customs. Certainly customs, (and non-state institutions, like the family & friendship), have political implications, but to talk about their political character seems to me to let politics eat too much up. And I think we've had quite enough of that. Stephen W. Carson "Premature optimization is the root of all evil" -Donald Knuth --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 4 07:12:58 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:12:58 +0800 Subject: Praetoriani Novi Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com X-Sender: believer at telepath.com Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 06:17:44 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: New Powers for Secret Service Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: list Reply-To: believer at telepath.com Source: Salt Lake City Tribune http://www.sltrib.com/11031998/utah/utah.htm IT'S CLASSIFIED: The Secret Service Will Have a Hand In 2002 Security BY GREG BURTON THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE A classified executive order signed by President Clinton during the summer has altered the way the Secret Service prepares for security at national events, a change already affecting the blueprint for the 2002 Winter Olympics. Presidential protection, often a hectic, hodgepodge operation, has been the jurisdiction of the Secret Service since John Wilkes Booth shot President Lincoln. Now, the presidential directive orders the Secret Service to take an active role in planning security for major national events, whether or not presidents, vice presidents, ex-presidents, their spouses or other dignitaries attend. Called Presidential Decision Directive 62 (PDD 62), the order also reportedly alters a range of national security considerations, although the directive's internal hardware is top secret. PDDs, like executive orders, do not require the approval of Congress but come through the National Security Council. For Salt Lake City, PDD 62 means Secret Service agents already are planning for the orchestration of executive ogling at the Winter Olympics without knowing who the president of the United States will be or if that person will attend. At the 1996 Summer Games, when the same shadowy squad led then-first-term Clinton through the magnolia trees in Atlanta, security experts with the Secret Service did not begin preparing for the executive visit until after Olympic organizers and the FBI had completed their security plan. ``The public has this perception of the Secret Service as a strange institution that rides in and rides out with black glasses on,'' says Dennis Crandall, resident agent in charge of the Secret Service for Utah and Idaho. ``This is kind of a new era for us.'' PDD 62 now enters a vault of classified security directives. Among other PDDs is No. 29, issued in 1994, that established the Security Policy Board, a secretive agency with authority over information systems' security and safeguarding classified information. The National Security Council has refused to release details of PDD 29. PDD 62 likely will remain equally veiled. ``PDD 62 is not classified, but the contents are,'' says David M. Tubbs, the recently appointed special agent in charge for the FBI's Utah, Idaho and Montana command. Says Crandall: ``Portions of it are still sensitive.'' According to several national security experts, the major event clause in PDD 62 is an outgrowth of a perceived lack of security planning for the president's visit to the Atlanta Games. Because of PDD 62, the Secret Service has been involved nearly from the onset of security planning for the 2002 Winter Games. ``We are designated to take a more aggressive upfront role in major events,'' says Crandall. Currently, the FBI and the Secret Service are hammering out a memorandum of understanding that clarifies the division of labor between the two federal security teams in accordance with PDD 62. The Secret Service's role -- although a topic that has reportedly led to turf wars in Washington, D.C. -- has been welcomed by most Salt Lake City organizers. Tubbs does not see their involvement as a threat to the FBI, the lead federal security agency for the 2002 Olympics. ``I have not had a turf war with anyone. Period,'' says Tubbs, who was one of several agents with direct security oversight during Atlanta. ``We are all involved in the planning stages here, so what has happened in the past is unimportant. What is important is what happens in 2002.'' ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From webmaster at totaltele.com Wed Nov 4 08:20:45 1998 From: webmaster at totaltele.com (Total Telecom Web) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:20:45 +0800 Subject: Registration Message-ID: <199811041539.PAA03615@mixy.aspectgroup.co.uk> Thankyou for registering with Total Telecom Your username is: cypherpunks at toad.com Your password is: cypherpunks If you haven't already done so, you can set a 'cookie' to make entry easier - go to - http:www.totaltele.com/register/help.asp If at anytime you wish the change your user profile - go to - http:www.totaltele.com/register/edit.asp We recomend you keep a copy of these details in case you forget your password or your 'cookie' is lost. From xasper8d at lobo.net Wed Nov 4 08:25:00 1998 From: xasper8d at lobo.net (X) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:25:00 +0800 Subject: Sensar knows! Message-ID: <000301be0808$21a6e960$8d2580d0@ibm> HERE'S LOOKING AT YOU, SENSAR By Peter D. Henig Red Herring Online November 3, 1998 You walk out the door and down the street to find the closest ATM machine, but reaching into your wallet -- "oops" -- you forgot your cash card. Don't you hate that? Well, if Sensar, a biometrics manufacturer of iris identification products has anything to say about it, you'll soon be tossing that ATM card in the can. Sensar has announced the world's largest ever combined equity investment in the field of personal electronic identification -- which is actually a bigger deal than you might think. Moving a step closer, as the company puts it, "toward making PINs and passwords obsolete," Citibank, NCR, J.P. Morgan, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch's wholly-owned subsidiary, KECALP Inc., and others have invested an aggregate of $28 million in Sensar as the company attempts to further roll out its iris identification pilot programs around the world in the hopes of owning this futuristic segment of the biometrics market targeted at the financial services and banking industries. Who cares? Who cares about equity stakes in biometrics companies? Good question, and the same one we asked when the company came a-pitching us their story. It turns out, however, that biometrics is -- as Sensar likes to remind us -- an emerging technology that could soon turn into a hot, if not huge, market around the globe. With the initial results of their European pilot program (set up in a small city outside London), it's "going very, very well, and I do mean very well." According to Per-Olof Loof, Senior Vice President of NCR's Financial Solutions Group, Sensar is pumped to push forward with its iris recognition products, shooting for commercial roll out in 1999, and a real ramp up of shipping product by 2000 and 2001. The Sensar Secure Iris Identification System is currently being used in NCR ATMs and at teller stations at Nationwide Building Society, the United Kingdom's largest savings and loan. Sensar's Iris Identification product was also used by professional athletes for access control and security at the 1998 Winter Olympics in Nagano, Japan. Citibank, an equity investor, has also launched an in-house pilot program using its employees to test iris scan technology. And just how big is this market? While company officials wouldn't be pinned down on specific forecasts, Mr. Olof noted that there are 20 billion customer transactions annually on NCR ATM machines alone, and that NCR has 37 percent market share. That's not a bad partner for a private company like Sensar to have. Moreover, Tom Drury, president and CEO of Sensar noted that there are currently 900,000 ATMs worldwide and 160,000 new machines shipping each year. Smile! The unique aspect of Sensar's products is that you may not even be aware you're being watched. Sensar's iris identification products use standard video cameras and real-time image processing to acquire a picture of a person's iris (the colored portion of the eye), digitally encode it, and compare it with one on file -- all in the space of a few seconds. It allows for highly accurate identification (comparing features across a whole database) and verification (comparing features with a single template) in a user friendly environment; second in accuracy only to retina identification using sans-laser beams. In layman's terms, this might mean opening up an account at your local bank by simply sitting down, having them take a snapshot of your eyeballs, and then hitting the ATMs or tellers for some cash. According to the company, iris recognition uses digitally encoded images of the iris to provide a highly accurate, easy-to-use and virtually fraud-proof means to verify a customer's identity. With 266 identification characteristics, the iris is the human body's most unique physical structure. And unlike other measurable human features in the face, hand, voice or fingerprint, the patterns in the iris do not change over time; receeding hairlines be damned. They're not alone "This landmark agreement puts iris identification light years ahead of any other personal electronic identification technology," said Mr. Drury. "Clearly, this agreement validates Sensar's product as the most accurate, customer-friendly, cost effective personal electronic identification product ever developed." That's not bad cheerleading, but Sensar is clearly not the only biometric firm in the identification market's field of vision. According to the Gartner Group (IT ), Miros and Visionics were the first companies to enter the facial recognition market, although facial recognition tends to be a less accurate means of identification. These two companies offer far cheaper products than Sensar, and are targeting applications to such markets as PC and network access and online transactions. Sensar, however, will also be designing for and marketing to the online environment, as it envisions iris technology hitting the desktop environment. While the Gartner Group forecasts that the more widely accepted fingerprint recognition techniques will be the remote access standard of choice through 2001, it also predicts that "aggressive financial organizations will begin full-scale rollouts of iris recognition for tellers and ATMs by 2000." Hence, the $28 million equity stake in Sensar by this highbrow club of financial institutions. By 2002, Gartner analysts predict iris recognition will be the biometric of choice, an area where IrisScan Inc. holds an exclusive patent. (Sensar uses the iris recognition process developed and licensed from IriScan, Inc., and has the exclusive use of that technology for all financial services transactions.) And as far as exit strategy goes, everybody, including Sensar, still has dreams of Silicon Valley dollars dancing in their heads. "We have a classic Silicon Valley entrepreneurial team," said Mr. Drury, who is located in New Jersey, "and we consider an IPO as a definite exit strategy." We'll be watching. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bin00000.bin Type: application/octet-stream Size: 5128 bytes Desc: "winmail.dat" URL: From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 4 09:07:34 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:07:34 +0800 Subject: NYC Smartcards Die Message-ID: <199811041618.LAA31005@camel7.mindspring.com> Chase, Visa and Mastercard have closed down their smartcard trial on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, the NYT reports today. It also says Mondex has closed its Swindon trial. The problem in NY is that the system was too cumbersome to use, needing special readers that were not always up to snuff, compared to the familiar and reliable system for credit cards. Bribing users with start up cash didn't work either. No one ever reloaded their cards. Not all merchants took them, especially those handling only cash transactions. Also, the cards could not be used outside the trial area, and the paper says, "everybody leaves the Upper West Side," without saying where they go to kill time for the day like out of work Koreans who dare not admit the sublimity of being jobless at long last -- money cannot buy the joy. Spokespersons say that they misjudged the customer's desire for cash-like freedom and anonymity (my words). That the best prospect for smartcard future lies in captive users such as college campuses and the military where they expect an all-purpose card will catch on by providing handy ID and money, as well as (unsaid) perfect monitoring and data-gathering. I'll keep my $12-balance card (never found a place to accept it) on the chance that it will be a valuable collector's item for the Edsel Electronic Opium Museum. And we never leave the Upper West Side, well, once, to go to the Harvard Club for a swell DCSNY. Great group, grim dump. From stuffed at stuffed.net Thu Nov 5 01:20:59 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED THU NOV 5) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:20:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981105081000.20638.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + PRIVATE COLLECTION + HOT ROD + A1 HARDCORE + SILICON SLUT + RETRO XXX + NATURAL BODIES + A W PHOTOGRAPHY + ONLY EROTICA + DEBBIE'S SEX SITE + NUDE PICS + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/8778.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/23651.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/24385.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/24429.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/6277.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- If you haven't visited STUFFED in the last few days, you're in for a real treat. It's faster than ever before and now, as a subscriber, you get 35 FREE new pics every day, plus over 100 more at carefully selected FREE sites we link to. This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From entropi at mail.roava.net Wed Nov 4 09:22:59 1998 From: entropi at mail.roava.net (entropi) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:22:59 +0800 Subject: is it real? In-Reply-To: <36413D1D.3C6@pacific.net.sg> Message-ID: <19981104113503.B4836@mail.roava.net> While some of the "information" cited in this post is technically possible, as a sys admin at a small start-up ISP, I can guarantee you that at least one ISP in the US is not kissing MS's ass in such a fashion. One would need to present a warrant in order to obtain our customer information. I sure as hell don't have the time or desire to help Gates track down people whohave managed to find their way around paying for his bloated OS. It seems to me that the ISP would have to be in cahoots with Gates in order to make piracy charges stick. Hence, one more arguement for using small, privacy oriented ISPs. The lesson here is, never trust the telco ;) On Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 09:52:29PM -0800, z�R� wrote: > >>for your info, please. > >> > >>>>Just in case....... > >>>>......... basically.... don't install Windows 98 ..... since they > >have > >>>>this "added" function..... =) > >>>> > >>>> Microsoft slapped two more lawsuit against one teenager and one > >>>>retired worker for using pirated Windows 98 software. > >>>> > >>>>For your information on how Microsoft actually trace PIRATED / > >>>>COPIED / UNLICENSED Windows 98: > >>>> > >>>>Whenever you logon into the internet, during the verifying > >>>>password duration. Your ISP (Internet Service Provider > >>>>eg:SingNET,PacNET,CyberNET,SwiftNET) will download a > >>>>SUB-REGISTRY ENCRYPTED HEXADECIMAL (containing all your > >>>>PROGRAMS serial numbers installed into Win98!!) file from > >>>>your Windows 98 registry. Then they send this SUB-REGISTRY to > >>>>Microsoft for verification. And ONLY Microsoft knows how > >>>>to decode this encypted hexadecimal file. > >>>> > >>>>If Microsoft verified that the serial numbers are authentic, > >>>>then they WILL REGISTER THOSE NUMBERS FOR YOU > >>>>A-U-T-O-M-A-T-C-A-L-L-Y !!! > >>>> > >>>>And if Microsoft denied those serial numbers, then they will send > >>>>an E-Mail to the ISP you dialled into and your ISP will start > >>>>tracing everyone who logons to their systems. That's why during > >>>>sometime for no reason your internet started slowing down. > >>>>And if your ISP verified that the SUB-REGISTRY ENCYPTED HEXADECIMAL > >>>>file is yours, they will send your information over to Microsoft > >>>>Singapore. And there they will decide whether to take actions or not. > >>>> > >>>>There is already 54 cases in Singapore regarding uses of PIRATE > >>>>/ COPIED / UNLICENSED Windows 98. > >>>> > >>>>I do not wish to see any of my friends get into this million dollar > >>>>tangle from Bill Gates, not that I hate this guy, but it really > >>>>sucks when they made such anti-piracy move into the software itself > >>>>- thus forcing everyone to buy Microsoft original's Windows 98, if > >>>>not they'll slap you with a lawsuit. > >>>> > >>>>Forward this mail to as many people you know, and who knows > >>>>you may just save one of your friends from getting sued by Microsoft. > >>>> > >>>> From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 4 09:48:38 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:48:38 +0800 Subject: ?Lions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <36408C43.106C@lsil.com> > Oh. That's easy. Check out the essay section of "Notice a few things about the mechanics of the model. First, everyone who puts money onto the net, or takes it off, is identified to the complete satisfaction of government regulators everywhere. Digital bearer cash is treated just like physical cash in the eyes of regulators, and is subject to the same regulations. There is no functional difference between a digital cash underwriter and an ATM machine." > Render unto FinCEN. No problem. Flatland can't reach the sky no matter how > hard they try. (hey. I'm rapping... pbbbt. tht. pbbbt. pbbbt. tht... :-)) > It is the financial foundation for a cyber world where regulators will probably have a great deal of trouble operating. They may have no choice but to settle for taking their cut at the borders. I still see many of the same old problems when attempting to trade hard goods, at least in large quantities. The problem of having to explain how you came by a 6000 sqare foot home on 100 acres of mountainside in Lake Pacid is not solved. It's not a total solution but it looks good. It could be a great way to save for retirement - nobody can tell how much E$ you have accumulated, where it came from or where you keep it. Just draw it out as you need it, pay your taxes at the gate and use the 5th when necessary. Regards, Mike From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 4 09:52:57 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:52:57 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: <19981101152627.C29091@die.com> Message-ID: At 4:02 PM -0500 11/1/98, Tim May wrote: > >All good points, but there's a big difference between trying to meet FCC >emissions requirements for a commercial product that has to meet cost, >weight, and cosmetic requirements (e.g., a plastic case!), and the scenario >of making a TEMPEST-like box for a laptop. Ferrite beads and copper tape >are a lot different from a sealed box made of 10-gauge copper sheet. Question: What if, instead of trying to entirely prevent leakage, one did a combination of "redirecting" and "masking" emissions. Keep in mind I am asking from a point of total ignorance. To break the question down further, a tempest attack is limited by 2 things, distance from the machine (IIRC, the "level" or "strength" of RF emissions drops by the square of the distance correct?) and (possibly) the presence of other sources of RF in about the same bands. Assuming that the signal level drops by the square of the distance, then one is far more likely to get tempested from a van outside than an airplane overhead correct? In that case, simply design one of Mr. May's brazed copper boxes so that it is open something similar to: ______________ |_____ | / | | _ | | |________/ | |_____________________| Where the laptop (or even a full sized tube monitor & computer) is placed inside. The other question is how hard, given a _specific_ machine would it be to create a "RF" jammer? Sort of an active defense versus the passive defense of a Tempest sheild. build a device that measures the RF coming off a machine, and rebroadcasts the opposite (i.e. the negation) of the signal? This should, or could "flatten" the signal making it useless. Then again, I could be totally wrong. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 4 09:57:26 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:57:26 +0800 Subject: CJ Legal Defense Message-ID: <199811041719.MAA27882@camel7.mindspring.com> Larry Dowling, an Austin attorney participating in CJ's legal defense, has engaged me to gather information for CJ's defense. This message and any related correspondence with me is protected as "attorney privileged information." Larry, who does not use E-mail, has asked me to obtain the following information for forwarding to him (Plaintext and ciphertext welcomed; PK below. Your choice as to posting responses to cpunks.) 1. How many people who saw the CJ posting cited by the IRS as a death threat against federal officials took it as a serious threat? See the IRS complaint at: http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm 2. If you answer "yes" to the question 1, then in your opinion are you of sound mind? 3. How many people are willing to help CJ's defense by answering questions and testify concerning his postings? 4. How many cypherpunks (and others) are willing to attend a trial for CJ in Washington State if the government proceeds to trial? For verification of this message here's Larry's contact: Larry J. Dowling Attorney at Law 606 West Eleventh Street Austin, Texas 78701-2007 Tel: (512) 476-8885 Fax: (512) 476-9918 My contact: John Young 251 West 89th Street, Suite 6E New York, NY 1002 Tel: (212) 873-8700 Fax: (212) 799-4003 ----- There are John Young PGP 2.X PKeys on the servers. Here's PGP5.5: -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.2 for non-commercial use mQGiBDUT1GoRBAD96qrjqMjIZK30XrvsEgsDssidjh4gjxoM3XZwYvjuNqohFUYC W6ktcjtHkITXeCP0leprRByF4LIZZp75JrR/FODnpELnTQwzQ03kD/OTRBl+m2ED /3N4T29KwwKdvEvfoKgJ8UYrAb4nS5F7W26kiKAIslpIIKBSdMCWszoBRwCg/ydS 4PuvY6YJMbHc3Ir0OpW9NZ8EANM9K1c7OKDOQEriJOtYqlwd//qKP2GQLvq7Kdel /fjZRKBDW3vRRJZvNkTpMN44eRz2wJxuQh1Jjqj/RWO7+KkeJF1ftVhWcC3kzmBa 7HX2CXmFX2Y+/Fqk1nyzDh2hD5nDidYS4uDMgNfAKs8WBVqWY9l9rHmX3LvoKIUP WYGWBADFmYF5n+6LMwnrEWJb3/G/LPTz8bupjZAX3pk7JAysJjwet1ZRfN356RuF 8p4ia4BY8evpmwG0ICW0skrzPf6EelOGef7RpQN+4CSTHaF2lsMe4PFfQSI9c7lP vGG74byiiR7V9BpWR6yhsB18FZhrCXkp44HQTFEbqbDbKwB3krQdSm9obiBZb3Vu ZyA8anlhQHBpcGVsaW5lLmNvbT6JAEsEEBECAAsFAjUT1GoECwMCAQAKCRCDRF/O eTbvYJ2pAJ0cPHIxXi8h0tbgWOH9NgPof7uH7QCfee3M2/PHjS59s5KTLHi1qrHu O+m5Ag0ENRPUaxAIAPZCV7cIfwgXcqK61qlC8wXo+VMROU+28W65Szgg2gGnVqMU 6Y9AVfPQB8bLQ6mUrfdMZIZJ+AyDvWXpF9Sh01D49Vlf3HZSTz09jdvOmeFXklnN /biudE/F/Ha8g8VHMGHOfMlm/xX5u/2RXscBqtNbno2gpXI61Brwv0YAWCvl9Ij9 WE5J280gtJ3kkQc2azNsOA1FHQ98iLMcfFstjvbzySPAQ/ClWxiNjrtVjLhdONM0 /XwXV0OjHRhs3jMhLLUq/zzhsSlAGBGNfISnCnLWhsQDGcgHKXrKlQzZlp+r0ApQ mwJG0wg9ZqRdQZ+cfL2JSyIZJrqrol7DVekyCzsAAgIIANDxYVQYe4ZXIS8pYMT5 RyCM1IH8Zl2D29Dem3DpaR8nIaaV7S3MqtQ78m0dH2ae5GeyVEmNl1Hbr0N2SHzi tmAMHqU2wriYsWuczFO+55Qman924+0LHJTykpj6LIzs7C426hkj23nuDc4m4y4n p8wCLg8f4ySWwDHdFNgydRwcgC6M8Z5HqFeCsUFX5KPbZjxmMyD+jzoeKSKtju4D MqTMvbotVDycnjB4P2aXEas1iie4irlgB/bNsQCFQY3KdTJsCkb70KwaK+eAzo5Y iXXREZqK9XsIR65AG5B6jenwziwrTEirCtqDs4gqBt54X/IeKIjJDIYwTmUyxIcW GK2JAEYEGBECAAYFAjUT1GsACgkQg0Rfznk272D76gCg/LOtMsq7I0NnuEp3qr/I qKmOJngAoNPsyKKflQrPkA6LAJfFXVRmRSdx =KgPx -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 4 10:34:02 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:34:02 +0800 Subject: Computers as instruments of liberation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:22 AM -0500 11/2/98, Tim May wrote: >Fatuous nonsense. After all, those folks down the road may be taxing them, >and may need killing. Or those folks may use computer networks to connect >to others for the purposes of liberation. > >I see computer networks as promoting secessionism, freedom fighting, and >resistance in general. > >The New World Order, the One Worlders, see this as "terrorism." > >Which is why strong encryption is needed. Which is why "they" oppose strong >encryption. > >John Gage has a typically Fabian socialist view that somehow >computerization will lead to an orderly, peaceful world. > >Me, I view networks as the key to retribution and justice. Then again, it could be that after all the "secessionism and freedom fighting" are done with, the resulting "disorder" (as in lack of rulers) will be so ubiquitous that *WARS* will no longer happen, as there is no one to lead the armies. and no one paying taxes to support those armies. That then would be peasce, no? -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From atlantis at earthlink.net Wed Nov 4 10:46:10 1998 From: atlantis at earthlink.net (atlantis at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:46:10 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811041811.NAA13498@mail.video-collage.com> 11/04/98 Y2K Solution! 8 Pine Circle Dr., Silicon Valley, Calif. USA OTC Company "TCFG" 21 st. Century Frontier Group has through several members of their administrative research department leaked vital information about their companies efforts. Everyone was tight lipped and interviews were refused, and through un-named sources we have learned that the technology and software solution are in the process of being patented! In over 1640 trials, using various data systems the use of the new technology and software solved the Y2K problem 100% of the time. This small publicly traded company "TCFG" which is just 3 years old is through various sources now negotiating with the "Big Boys"! "TCFG" the letters to look for! From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 4 11:11:17 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:11:17 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone Alternative In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B226@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: At 5:31 PM -0500 11/2/98, Matthew James Gering wrote: >> paradox of financial cryptography, and, more specifically, >> digital bearer settlement, is not that it gives you privacy >> and freedom (anarchy? :-)) > >Anarchy != privacy However, Privacy + Freedom == Anarchy, or close enough to be indistinguishable. >In fact to many people privacy is a very statist construct, as they clamor >for more privacy regulations by government. No, to many people, the Government is a magical device that can repeal the laws of physics, and change peoples hearts. They don't think that government can *create* privacy, they think it is willing or able to *enforce* it. Then again, there is little enough evidence of thougt amoung "many people". -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From scoop at insight.cas.mcmaster.ca Wed Nov 4 11:12:27 1998 From: scoop at insight.cas.mcmaster.ca (Steven Cooper) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:12:27 +0800 Subject: hoping to obtains copies of documentation ... Message-ID: <199811041814.NAA27597@insight.cas.mcmaster.ca> There are two informative documents available from GEMPLUS (France) as part of their development kit for their GPK4000 smartcard. 1. GPK4000 Application Notes (for public key applications) Banking, Personal Identification, Internet Transactions 2. Electronic Purse Architecture for MPCOS-EMV (for DES and 3-DES applications) Unfortunately, it the kit costs more than US$4k. Any chance some kind soul could forward a copy of these documents? If so, email me directly to make arrangements. -- scoop From frissell at panix.com Wed Nov 4 11:15:17 1998 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:15:17 +0800 Subject: Quick, Dear -- Beat Me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811041840.NAA00424@mail1.panix.com> At last an Administration Domestic Violence provision I can support. Al Gore has just proposed that victims of domestic violence should be able to easily get new SS#. Collect a dozen. New options for privacy vis-a-vis private individuals and even the government. Protection of "victims" won't work if the new number is reported to the Big Three credit reporting bureaus. DCF From frissell at panix.com Wed Nov 4 11:34:14 1998 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:34:14 +0800 Subject: ?Lions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811041855.NAA03080@mail1.panix.com> At 09:17 AM 11/4/98 -0800, Michael Motyka wrote: >It is the financial foundation for a cyber world where regulators will >probably have a great deal of trouble operating. They may have no choice >but to settle for taking their cut at the borders. Note that the "informal" sector as a percentage of the "formal center is 100% for the Russian economy, 30% for the Italian and Belgium economies and at least 10% of the US economy with conventional payment systems. >I still see many of the same old problems when attempting to trade hard >goods, at least in large quantities. The problem of having to explain >how you came by a 6000 sqare foot home on 100 acres of mountainside in >Lake Pacid is not solved. It's not a total solution but it looks good. Rent don't buy. >It could be a great way to save for retirement - nobody can tell how >much E$ you have accumulated, where it came from or where you keep it. >Just draw it out as you need it, pay your taxes at the gate and use the >5th when necessary. True. Even works for general purposes. Very hard to "net worth" people. Expensive process. DCF From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 4 11:37:37 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:37:37 +0800 Subject: Dead man running; metabolism no problem to candidates Message-ID: <199811041910.UAA11450@replay.com> At 03:13 PM 11/3/98 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >On the other hand, it's still tempting to see about putting Frank Zappa >on the ballot. He is a bit metabolically challenged these days, Here in LA, we had a Dead Man Running for sheriff. This Shermie Block character croaked before the race, but his party still urged voting for him, to spite his opponent. (Some "board" would appoint a replacement, so the vote was actually for the board.) From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 4 11:50:37 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:50:37 +0800 Subject: 0851244.shtml Message-ID: <199811041847.MAA08231@einstein.ssz.com> Advertisement Welcome to Slashdot Science News Technology Star Wars Prequels The Internet faq code awards slashNET older stuff rob's page submit story book reviews user account ask slashdot advertising supporters past polls features about jobs BSI Review:Handbook of Applied Cryptography Encryption Posted by Hemos on Wednesday November 04, @08:51AM from the just-the-facts-ma'am dept. Giving some actual theory to the whole cryptography discussion, Ian S. Nelson's review of Handbook of Applied Cryptography takes a look at this veritable tome of information. This isn't a book for those of you trying to figure out exactly what the NSA actually does; this is for the real meat and numbers behind it all. Click below for more info. REVIEW: Handbook of Applied Cryptography Alfred J. Menezes, Paul C. van Oorschot, Scott A. Vanstone CRC Press (ISBN 0-8493-8523-7) Nutshell Review: Required reading for any cryptography freak. Rating: 9/10 The Scenario CRC Press has been building a series of books on discrete mathematics and its applications. Doug Stinson wrote the theory book on cryptography (Cryptography: Theory and Practice (ISBN: 0-8493-8521-0, if you don't like this book you'll vomit when you see the Stinson book) and this is the application book on cryptography. It's close to 800 pages chocked full of information. I must confess that I'm a cryptography freak and I'm a little sick of the constant political discussions and lack of tech talk, this book is all tech and might even be a little much if you're not into math. It's a wonderful companion to the Schneier books (Applied Cryptography 1st or 2nd Edition A.K.A. "the crypto bible") if you're into the nitty gritty details of cryptography. What's Bad? I really like this book and I can't find a lot that I don't like about it... but I think in places the math gets a little thick. I have a degree in math and I find myself returning to the math overview section more often than I'd like to admit. If you're not familiar with discrete math and combinatorics then this book probably isn't for you. If you enjoy that stuff, then this will be a piece of cake. If you're looking to build your crypto book library up I'd highly recommend this book before you get some of the more hard-core books. Something else I feel is lacking is cryptanalysis on ciphers. They discuss attacks on various protocols and hashes but actual attacks on ciphers are glossed over. As a companion to Cryptography: Theory and Practice, which covers cryptanalysis in more detail, it is understandable to leave that material out of this book but I think they could discuss it a little more than they do without going into specifics. The no-nonsense style can be a little dry at times, there aren't a lot of jokes or anecdotes to lighten things up in this book. What's Good? Cipher isn't spelled with a 'y' anywhere in this book. It's not filled with a lot of opinion or rumor. It doesn't hardly bring up ITAR, key escrow, or the NSA's mystical superpowers. This book is about cryptographic techniques and a listing of patents is about as political or opinionated as it gets. It is kind of like a textbook without the problems at the end of each chapter. It is written in an outline format with subitems of "Definition", "Fact", "Notes", "Example", and "Algorithm." Each subitem is followed by a few short but concise paragraphs of explanation. Plenty of charts and figures fill the pages and everything is explained well. While it lacks source code, there is certainly enough information for you to implement any of the ciphers, hashes, or protocols covered. It even includes some test vectors for a lot of the algorithms. So What's In It For Me? If you want to learn about cryptography, not the politics but the actual technology, then this is a great book to get before you get over your head. It's very readable and while the math can be a little heavy in places it is accessible and useful. It gives you a good flavor of how more advanced papers and books on the subject are and it avoids the nonacademic discussions surrounding cryptography. To pick this book up, head over to Amazon and help Slashdot out. Table of Contents 1. Overview of Cryptography 1. Introduction 2. Information Security and Cryptography 3. Background on Functions 4. Basic Terminology and Concepts 5. Symmetric-key Encryption 6. Digital Signatures 7. Authentication and Identification 8. Public-key Cryptography 9. Hash Functions 10. Protocols and mechanisms 11. Key establishment, management, and certification 12. Pseudorandom numbers and sequences 13. Classes of attacks and security models 14. Notes and further references 2. Mathematical Background 1. Probability theory 2. Information theory 3. Complexity theory 4. Number theory 5. Abstract algebra 6. Finite fields 7. Notes and further references 3. Number-Theoretic Reference Problems 1. Introduction and overview 2. The integer factorization problem 3. The RSA problem 4. The quadratic residuosity problem 5. Computing Square roots in Zn 6. The Discrete logarithm problem 7. The Diffie-Hellman problem 8. Composite moduli 9. Computing individual bits 10. The subset sum problem 11. Factoring polynomials over finite fields 12. Notes and further references 4. Public-Key Parameters 1. Introduction 2. Probabilistic primality tests 3. (True)Primality tests 4. Prime number generation 5. Irreducible polynomials over Zp 6. Generators and elements of high order 7. Notes and further references 5. Pseudorandom Bits and Sequences 1. Introduction 2. Random bit generation 3. Pseudorandom bit generation 4. Statistical tests 5. Cryptographically secure pseudorandom bit generation 6. Notes and further references 6. Stream Ciphers 1. Introduction 2. Feedback shift registers 3. Stream ciphers based on LFSRs 4. Other stream ciphers 5. Notes and further references 7. Block Ciphers 1. Introduction 2. Background and general concepts 3. Classical ciphers and historical development 4. DES 5. FEAL 6. IDEA 7. SAFER, RC5, and other block ciphers 8. Notes and further references 8. Public-Key Encryption 1. Introduction 2. RSA public-key encryption 3. Rabin public-key encryption 4. ElGamal public-key encryption 5. McElliece public-key encryption 6. Knapsack public-key encryption 7. Probabilistic public-key encryption 8. Notes and further references 9. Hash Functions and Data Integrity 1. Introduction 2. Classification and framework 3. Basic constructions and general results 4. Unkeyed hash functions (MDCs) 5. Keyed hash functions (MACs) 6. Data integrity and message authentication 7. Advanced attacks on hash functions 8. Notes and further references 10. Identification and Entity Authentication 1. Introduction 2. Passwords (weak authentication) 3. Challenge-response identification (strong authentication) 4. Customized zero-knowledge identification protocols 5. Attacks on identification protocols 6. Notes and further references 11. Digital Signatures 1. Introduction 2. A framework for digital signature mechanisms 3. RSA and related signature schemes 4. Fiat-Shamir signature schemes 5. The DSA and related signature schemes 6. One-time digital signatures 7. Other signatures schemes 8. Signatures with additional functionality 9. Notes and further references 12. Key Establishment Protocols 1. Introduction 2. Classification and framework 3. Key transport based on symmetric encryption 4. Key agreement based on symmetric techniques 5. Key transport based on public-key encryption 6. Key agreement based on asymmetric techniques 7. Secret Sharing 8. Conference Keying 9. Analysis of key establishment protocols 10. Notes and further references 13. Key Management Techniques 1. Introduction 2. Background and basic concepts 3. Techniques for distributing confidential keys 4. Techniques for distributing public keys 5. Techniques for controlling key usage 6. Key management involving multiple domains 7. Key life cycle issues 8. Advanced trusted third party services 9. Notes and further references 14. Efficient Implementation 1. Introduction 2. Multiple-precision integer arithmetic 3. Multiple-precision modular arithmetic 4. Greatest common divisor algorithms 5. Chinese remainder theorem for integers 6. Exponentiation 7. Exponent recoding 8. Notes and further references 15. Patents and Standards 1. Introduction 2. Patents on cryptographic techniques 3. Cryptographic standards 4. Notes and further references 16. Appendix A: Bibligraphy of Papers from Selected Cryptographic Forums 1. Asiacrypt/Auscrypt Proceedings 2. Crypto Proceedings 3. Eurocrypt Proceedings 4. Fast Software Encryption Proceedings 5. Journal of Cryptology papers < The demise of Crack.com | Reply | Flattened | 50 Gb drives from Seagate > Related Links Slashdot Cryptography: Theory and Practice book Amazon Ian S. Nelson's NSA More on Encryption Also by Hemos [INLINE] Amazon Info The books here are brought to us in Partnership with Amazon.com. If you follow the links around here, and eventually buy a book, we get a percentage of the cost! Want books about any of these things? Perl, Linux, Unix, Gardening, CGI, Java? Still not finding what you're looking for? Visit Amazon.com from this link, and we still get some credit. Or you could even Search Amazon using this convenient form: ____________________ ______ [INLINE] The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. Slashdot is not responsible for what they say. < Down One | This Page's Threshold: 0 | Up One > (Warning:this stuff is extremely beta right now) Amazon.com confuses "Applied Cryptography" with "H by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 04, @09:09AM For those of you who order the Handbook of Applied Cryptography, don't be suprised if amazon sends you Bruce Schneiers "Applied Cryptography" instead.....its happened to me and another person I know.. [ Reply to this ] politics / history is relevant (Score:1) by harshaw on Wednesday November 04, @10:00AM (User Info) On of the great things about Schneier's Applied Cryptography was how he intertwined the mathematics with the political ramifications of the particular crypto algorithm. I think the study of Crypto needs to be tightly coupled with an understanding of the societal / political issues around it. For instance, you can't simply implement 128 bit RC5 in your product and ship it of to Iraq without having RSA (for patent violations) and the NSA (for the obvious reasons) come down on your head. IMO, Crypto is a VERY tough subject and requires an intense amount of study to understand the math. If the text you are studying is dry and lacking wit or humor, it makes the job even harder :( [ Reply to this ] * politics / history is relevant by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 04, @11:57AM Loved it! I laughed! I cried! (Score:1) by bobse on Wednesday November 04, @11:14AM (User Info) What I liked was the way that each algorithm was reviewed in a very consistent manner. Most algorithms were described not just with words and mathematics (which is good), but also with pseudocode (which is great if you are actually trying to implement this stuff). The consistent, itemized format also allows you to compare the strengths/weaknesses of different algorithms yourself, instead of relying on someone else to do it for you. Very cool. 9.5/10 [ Reply to this ] Price Check (Score:1) by Ralph Bearpark on Wednesday November 04, @12:15PM (User Info) As an onging service to /. readers ... Amazon = $84.95 BarnesAndNoble = $109.50 (HAHAHAHA!) Shopping books = $71.96 Spree books = $67.99 (Is it my imagination, or is /. reviewing increasingly expensive, non-Amazon-discounted books? Surely not. :-)) Regards, Ralph. [ Reply to this ] * Price Check by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 04, @01:12PM The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. Slashdot is not responsible for what they say. < Down One | This Page's Threshold: 0 | Up One > (Warning:this stuff is extremely beta right now) ____________________ ______ All newspaper editorial writers ever do is come down from the hills after the battle is over and shoot the wounded. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1998 Rob Malda. [ home | awards | supporters | rob's homepage | contribute story | older articles | advertising | past polls | about | faq | BSI ] From vznuri at netcom.com Wed Nov 4 12:14:14 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:14:14 +0800 Subject: MS "halloween" doc, vs. linux Message-ID: <199811041937.LAA08348@netcom13.netcom.com> some people objected to my last post ranting about MS tactics relative to the browser market. there has been a remarkable development that shows how MS deliberately attempts to "sabotage" markets through FUD etc.... an internal policy memo that discusses their tactics leaked to the public.. good article on Slate about how MS is attempting to sabotage the growth of new free linux software through a systematic strategy of "decommoditizing" or "embrace and extend" where some people call this "copy and corrupt": http://www.salonmagazine.com/21st/ if MS's strategies in the world were as simple as "make good products so people will buy them", who could complain? but they constantly see software development as trench warfare and a bloody, no-hold-barred melee. I'm positive they will be chastised after this antitrust trial finishes.. we'll see.. From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 4 13:12:03 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:12:03 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811042022.VAA22251@replay.com> To: efc-talk at efc.ca From: David Jones Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:21:57 -0500 (EST) Seems a bit strange that just when the private sector is recognizing that smart cards are not yet ready for prime time, the Ontario government is gearing up to launch a "universal smart card" for the delivery of government services. But don't worry, the government smart card will be better than Mondex ... it will have biometric identification. ;-) Ontario considering smart cards http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/national-post.30oct98.html Mondex pulls plug on Guelph pilot project http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/globe.01nov98.html Old-fashioned cash outsmarts smart card http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/national-post.01nov98a.html From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 4 13:37:28 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:37:28 +0800 Subject: DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to Drive eCash Forward Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Reply-To: From: "Scott Loftesness" To: Subject: DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to Drive eCash Forward Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:32:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ FYI... DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to Drive eCash Forward PALO ALTO, CALIF.--November 4, 1998 DigiCash Inc. has announced that it is entering into a Chapter 11 reorganization to allow it to pursue strategic alternatives for its electronic cash ("eCash" �) products and the associated intellectual assets pioneered by DigiCash. According to Scott Loftesness, interim CEO of DigiCash, "The company is exploring a range of potential alternatives including working with major strategic players to finance the market development of eCash or the sale and/or licensing of the Company's intellectual property portfolio." Loftesness added, "eCash�, as it has been developed by DigiCash, is an important and inevitable payment solution in the world of global electronic commerce." The DigiCash payment solution is currently in use by leading banks in Europe and Australia. These banks have deployed the DigiCash eCash solution and continue to add to their respective consumer and merchant eCash acceptance networks. DigiCash's eCash� payment solution offers a secure, low cost and private payment option to consumers for payments of any amount. The intellectual property owned by DigiCash consists of a series of patents, protocols, and software systems that were specifically designed to be privacy protecting for consumers and which also enable other applications like online electronic voting. The ability to pay privately, without revealing personal information, and avoiding the capture of personal transaction information for marketing or other subsequent uses is a growing concern among consumers globally. Contact: Scott Loftesness: (650) 798-8183 or via email: sjl at sjl.net --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From vznuri at netcom.com Wed Nov 4 14:15:35 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:15:35 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.05: U. of T. Students Question Smartcard Technology & Privacy Message-ID: <199811042123.NAA18974@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.05: U. of T. Students Question Smartcard Technology & Privacy Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:19:58 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.05: U. of T. Students Question Smartcard Technology & Privacy News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Tuesday November 3, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: WIRED News, November 2, 1998 http://www.wired.com Students Wonder: How Smart? http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/15978.html by Marlene Blanshay, blanshay at total.net TORONTO -- A coalition of University of Toronto students is leading an open forum on smartcard technology Monday to discuss concerns that a new campus card program may be compromising their privacy. The T-card pilot project began last year when the university distributed 45,000 smartcards to students, staff, and faculty. Like many students across the US, where such programs are common, the 39,000 Toronto volunteers were sold on the convenience of having all their ID combined on a single piece of plastic. "[Students] don't have to carry around so many cards," said University of Toronto registrar Karel Swift, the chairwoman of the school's T-card implementation committee. Not everybody feels that way. The university says it has been open about the new program, but some students feel that the school has not been up front with them about what is being done with information on purchases made with the card. "We just want some answers," said James Hooch of the Identity Technology Working Group, the coalition of students and faculty that will host Monday's forum. "We feel we are being used as a captive market." Andrew Clement, a professor of information studies at the University of Toronto, said the university has an obligation to be more open about the project. "We don't think they are up to some nefarious scheme," said Clement, moderator of Monday's forum. "But they are implementing the new technology, which is going to be used in a wider setting, and should be setting a good example." Nevertheless, Swift said that students have not been left out of the process. "We consulted with student reps when the project was under consideration," Swift said. She added that the university has privacy policy and that their records are protected by a rigorous access to information policy. Some still worry that the university, in the interest of efficiency, is introducing a new technology without looking at the potential uses or misuses. "There is a lot of concern among the students about collection of information for purposes they are not aware of," says Jack Dimond, the university's commissioner for freedom of information and privacy. "My concern is that as smartcards are used more, there is a procedure of review of information it collects. When you begin using the new applications, you have to look at them closely." One freedom and privacy advocate encourages students to boycott the cards. "[Students] should just say, 'I refuse to use this card for any cash purchases until you tell me where this info is going and what you're doing with it,'" said David Jones, president of Electronic Frontier Canada. Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Wed Nov 4 14:17:41 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:17:41 +0800 Subject: IP: [FP] L.A. DMV Tries to Stem the Tide of Fake Licenses Message-ID: <199811042123.NAA18961@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ScanThisNews" Subject: IP: [FP] L.A. DMV Tries to Stem the Tide of Fake Licenses Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:30:13 -0600 To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com SCAN THIS NEWS [This is a little dated, but well worth reading] -------------------------------------------- Sunday, April 5, 1998 DMV Tries to Stem the Tide of Fake Licenses Crime: Demand for IDs fuels counterfeiting rings and corruption inside the agency. Officials respond with anti-tampering features, more monitoring of workers. By VIRGINIA ELLIS, Times Staff Writer SACRAMENTO - The California driver's license's preeminence as a form of identification has spawned a thriving black market for fraudulent licenses and a major corruption scandal in the state's motor vehicle department, records and interviews show. In recent years, as the lowly driver's license has been redesigned to make it more tamper-resistant, the card has increasingly become the dominant piece of identification for cashing checks, obtaining credit and securing government services. This, in turn, has caused the black market value for licenses to soar, providing a catalyst for counterfeiting and bribery of Department of Motor Vehicles employees. Scores of DMV workers in offices from San Diego to Sacramento already have been caught illegally issuing driver's licenses, and officials say many more are under investigation. "We have, in effect, created a cottage industry," said Steve Solem, a DMV deputy director. "A lot of different changes have been evolving over the years that have made...people feel the need to get a driver's license at any cost." As a result, officials report that: * Counterfeiting rings operate in every large city in the state, serving up fake licenses of varying quality for sale on the streets. In Los Angeles, business is so competitive that state investigators say a prospective customer can bargain for the best price. A counterfeit identification package, including a license, usually sells for $100, but state agents have paid as little as $35. * At many of the DMV's busiest offices, scam artists make use of loopholes in procedures to get legitimate licenses, which are then peddled to undocumented immigrants or suspended drivers. In Santa Clara County, a four-month surveillance of DMV offices recently led to 26 felony and 16 misdemeanor arrests for using false documents to obtain driver's licenses. * In the past two years, 144 DMV employees were fired or otherwise disciplined for illegal activity, primarily driver's license fraud. Most cases were referred for prosecution. The corruption affected more than a third of the DMV offices. "It's by far the biggest scandal and case of severe corruption in my 16 years here," said state Sen. Steve Peace (D-El Cajon), who heads a legislative task force on personal privacy. "It's not a single organized entity. It's a number of entrepreneurial criminal activities." Late this year, officials plan to begin issuing new licenses with even more sophisticated anti-tampering features to help stem the tide of license-related crime. Among the features will be a tiny ghost image designed to make it harder to substitute one person's photo for another. "You've got to be as technologically alert as the criminals out there," said DMV Director Sally Reed. "You've got to keep changing the license. You've got to keep changing your practices." Complicating the task is an overwhelming DMV workload. The department licenses more than 20 million California drivers, issues more than 6 million new licenses and identification cards a year, and operates 172 licensing centers around the state. How many fake and fraudulent licenses may be in circulation is impossible to calculate. But state officials say the problem is rampant, its impact on society insidious. A fraudulent driver's license that is used to steal someone's identity can cause years of frustration as the victim suddenly finds his or her credit destroyed. Or the fake license can put a convicted drunk driver back on the highway, where the next accident may cause someone's death. The role of the driver's license in criminal activity was heightened not only by the technological changes that made it so widely accepted, but by governmental decisions to use it as a tool for punishment. New laws have made a larger and larger pool of people susceptible to losing their license for activities unrelated to driving. The license can be suspended for spraying graffiti, failure to pay child support, truancy and certain kinds of prostitution. And immigrants who lack proper proof of residency cannot be issued one. "If you're a drunk driver, you want a fake ID," said Alison Koch, a senior special investigator for the DMV in Sacramento. "If you're in a gang, you want a fake ID. If you're a deadbeat dad, you want a fake ID. If you're an illegal alien, you want a fake ID. If you want to commit check or credit card fraud, you want a fake ID. "There is hardly a crime out there that doesn't demand some kind of fraudulent identification." For many minor crimes, she said, a bogus license - even a poor one - is all the fraud artist needs. The quick glance that many business people give the license before cashing a check or accepting a credit card is not enough to discern that it's fake. For more sophisticated crimes, said Vito Scattaglia, an area commander for DMV investigators in Los Angeles, criminals want the real thing - and this demand for legitimate licenses has put heavy pressure on low-level state employees to commit fraud. "When you have a technician who is making $2,000 to $2,400 a month and you have an individual who is willing to pay $1,000 to process one driver's license, you don't have to be a genius to figure out how tempting that is," he said. But Peace, the state senator, said high-level officials did not recognize how extensively their department had been infiltrated by criminals until an embarrassing KCBS-TV Channel 2 report last year caught a DMV employee on camera processing illegal licenses. Until the Los Angeles broadcast, only a handful of DMV investigators had been monitoring employee fraud, and they were struggling with a huge backlog. Then Reed temporarily assigned 213 DMV investigators to employee fraud and announced that it would be the agency's No. 1 priority. The results were staggering. Using everything from surveillance to informants, investigators caught dozens of DMV employees around the state processing illegal licenses. Many were teamed up with grifters on the outside, who usually worked the DMV parking lots, preying mostly on immigrants who would be guaranteed a license for about $1,000 to $2,000. Typical was the case of an 18-year Torrance employee who was targeted after a DMV computer in Sacramento showed irregularities in licenses he had issued. After investigators interviewed dozens of his customers, the employee was charged with computer fraud and altering public records. "The first person I interviewed, I knew I was on the right trail," recalled Ken Erickson, a senior DMV special investigator. "The customer was honest. He said, 'Yeah, I'm here illegally and I can't read or write either English or Spanish.'" But, Erickson said, data the Torrance employee had entered into the DMV computer stated that the man was a legal resident of California who had passed the written driver's test in English. Investigators searched the employee's car and found $14,280 in cash stashed behind the front seat, Erickson said. They estimated that over a 15-month period he had improperly issued at least 70 licenses. After pleading no contest to two felony counts, he was fined $14,280 and placed on three years probation. He also was fired and barred from future government employment. The employee fraud, Peace said, is "not some sort of single grand conspiracy with a godfather sitting on top pulling levers." "What it has been is a culture within the department that has allowed for a whole variety of entrepreneurial criminal behavior. It was a culture which says, 'I've got my little deal and you've got yours. Don't mess with mine and I won't mess with yours.'" Although the problem predated Reed's appointment as director, Peace faulted her for initially disbelieving it and being "slow to react" until the television report. Reed acknowledged the bad publicity was a wake-up call but disputed Peace's contention the DMV has a culture of corruption, saying the vast majority of the DMV's 8,600 workers are law-abiding. A spokesman for the California State Employees Assn., which represents DMV employees, accused the department of overreacting. He said the crackdown has destroyed worker morale and become so broad that "it could very likely be called a witch hunt." Investigators concede that corruption within the DMV probably pales compared to that on the outside. Richard Steffen, chief consultant for a legislative task force investigating state government, said crime rings are able to get legitimate licenses simply by knowing how to work the system. He said they know, for example, that photos and thumbprints are not taken until the end of the licensing procedure, a process tailor-made for the use of ringers. The ringer takes the driver's test, then the customer comes in the next day and completes the process. "There is a pattern here that is known on the street," said Steffen, who is preparing to release a report on the DMV. "It's not like masterminds come up with this." Birth certificates, which the DMV requires, are easily counterfeited, and phony ones are hard to spot, officials said. The appearance of birth certificates varies from state to state and sometimes, as in California, from county to county. Adding to the problem is California's open birth certificate procedure, which allows virtually anyone to get a certified copy of anyone else's birth record. One team of ringers arrested by the California Highway Patrol was found with counterfeit birth certificates from Oklahoma, Utah, New York and Texas, according to Bruce Wong, a senior DMV investigator in San Jose. "They were driving up the state from Southern California, stopping at different DMV offices and submitting license applications under different names," he said. "In one day of driving, they had accumulated eight different instructional permits, which they could then sell along with the counterfeit birth certificate." Solem said some loopholes in licensing procedures will be closed when the department begins issuing the new licenses and taking photos and thumbprints at the beginning of the process. "But this is a problem that's going to be with us," he added. "Government does something and the crooks figure a way around it and then government catches up. It goes on and on." Scattaglia said much of the counterfeiting may have its roots south of the border, but no one knows for sure because investigators have only been able to arrest the sellers, not the suppliers. "We have gone into places and recovered sheets and sheets of holograms and state seals - literally a setup [for] putting a license together," he said. "But we've never found the commercial facility that has the printing presses and all the orders. The informants we have all indicated that that place is somewhere in Mexico." Beth Givens, director of the San Diego-based Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, a consumer information and advocacy program, predicted that driver's license fraud will always be difficult to control because it's not a violent crime and punishment is light. "If these criminals happened to break and enter or use a gun, it would be one thing," she said. "But because they're using paper and documents, they're not seen as a threat to society." Banking officials are starting to rethink their heavy reliance on the driver's license. "That's certainly a trend that's underway because they are increasingly fake," said Gregory Wilhelm, lobbyist for the California Bankers Assn. Los Angeles Times ======================================================================= Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. ======================================================================= Reply to: ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From setiathome at ssl.Berkeley.EDU Wed Nov 4 14:27:03 1998 From: setiathome at ssl.Berkeley.EDU (SETI@home) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:27:03 +0800 Subject: SETI@home Project Update Message-ID: <199811042141.NAA10920@siren.ssl.berkeley.edu> Dear SETI at home volunteer: Thank you for signing up for SETI at home. We're on schedule to distribute the SETI at home screensaver program in April 1999, and we'll send you another email when that happens. On October 30 we began recording data at the world's largest radio telescope, located in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. Preliminary versions of the screensaver program and the data distribution system have been completed. On November 20 we will begin testing the system with a group of 100 users analyzing real data (sorry - no more volunteers needed). Over the next few months we will complete the testing, making sure the system will handle large numbers of users. We are pleased to thank SETI at home's sponsors and technology partners: the Planetary Society (a 100,000 member organization founded by Carl Sagan), Paramount Studios (in conjunction with their new movie, Star Trek IX: Insurrection), Sun Microsystems, EDT, Fuji Film Computer Products, Informix, and individual donors like you. The screen saver will be free for everyone, but if you can consider making a tax-deductible donation to SETI at home, please visit http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/donor.html. We also invite you to become a member of The Planetary Society. You can visit their site at http://www.planetary.org. For further SETI at home information and news, please see http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu. Thank you again for offering to participate in SETI at home. Our work is enhanced and inspired by the enthusiasm of thoughtful, adventurous, and generous people like you. If you wish to remove your name from the SETI at home email list, please send an empty email message to this address with subject header "remove". Best wishes, The SETI at home project From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 4 14:27:05 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:27:05 +0800 Subject: Programmer Needed for Privacy Tool Implementation ProjectProgrammer Needed for Privacy Tool Implementation Project Message-ID: <199811042148.WAA04222@replay.com> As the World Wide Web Consortium's Platform for Privacy Preferences Project (P3P) specification is nearing completion, it's time to start working on P3P implementations. I have an immediate opening for a java programming contractor to implement a P3P user agent as a client-side proxy. For details on P3P see http://www.w3.org/p3p/ This is an excellent opportunity for a programmer who wants to help make it easier for people to maintain their privacy online. An outstanding candidate for this position would have: - several years of programming experience, including project design experience - experience with browser plugg-ins, Web proxy servers, or Web clients (or at least some familiarity with the HTTP protocol) - Windows GUI development experience - user interface design experience - familiarity with XML I'm looking for someone who can start ASAP, preferably in the next month. This project is expected to last 3 to 6 months, most likely 6 months. We would prefer someone who can work on site at the AT&T Labs-Research Shannon Laboratory in Florham Park, NJ, but will consider outstanding applicants who would prefer to work remotely. Florham Park is in a nice suburban area less than an hour from midtown Manhattan. Please email lorrie at research.att.com for more information or to apply. -- Lorrie Faith Cranor lorrie at research.att.com AT&T Labs-Research 973-360-8607 180 Park Ave. Room A241 FAX 973-360-8970 Florham Park, NJ 07932 http://www.research.att.com/~lorrie/ From netcenter-news1 at netscape.com Wed Nov 4 14:35:55 1998 From: netcenter-news1 at netscape.com (netcenter-news1 at netscape.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:35:55 +0800 Subject: FREE CD With Your Free Netcenter Membership Message-ID: <199811042203.RAA28336@mail.video-collage.com> **************************************************** CLICK HERE TO JOIN NETCENTER NOW AND GET A FREE CD! http://home.netscape.com/welcome/musicblvd/3.html **************************************************** Dear Internet User: You are receiving this offer because you are a valued Netscape customer. And now we would like for you to discover for yourself why millions of people have signed up for Netscape Netcenter, and why industry analysts say Netcenter "goes well beyond the services available from any other portal site."* Becoming a Netscape Netcenter member is fast, easy and FREE. PLUS, IF YOU SIGN UP NOW YOU'LL GET A FREE CD FROM MUSIC BOULEVARD! Netscape Netcenter gives you the best of what you need on the Internet, customized especially for you. Just look at what you'll get with your free membership: FREE PERMANENT EMAIL When you open a Webmail account you can access email from any Internet- connected computer in the world. FREE CUSTOMIZED HOME PAGE With "My Netscape" you can create your own customized homepage with all the information you want exactly where you want it. FREE AOL INSTANT MESSAGING You can communicate INSTANTLY with friends, co-workers and family any time you want. You don't even need to be an AOL subscriber! FREE DOWNLOADS OF NETSCAPE SOFTWARE A Netscape Exclusive! Download the latest version of Communicator! FREE NEWS AND SUBSCRIPTIONS All the news you need, any time you need it, from Inbox Direct to your desktop. You get instant access to more than 135 popular online publications. FREE AUTOMATIC SOFTWARE UPDATES Smart Update keeps your Netscape software current by automatically letting you know every time an update is available. FREE NETCENTER MEMBER DIRECTORY Find other members any time, from friends and colleagues to other professionals in your industry. FREE 17 INDIVIDUAL CHANNELS OF VALUABLE INFORMATION >From computing to travel, lifestyles to sports, and health to autos -- you can find almost everything on Netcenter. FREE CONTINUOUSLY UPDATED ABC NEWS The latest news updated throughout your busy day. Join NOW -- It's Free! There's so much more you'll get with your FREE Netcenter membership -- from Net Search to Classifieds to our comprehensive Web Directory to What's New, What's Cool and complete Yellow and White Pages. Plus there are lively discussion groups and THE BEST WEB CONTENT YOU CAN FIND ANYWHERE. You can even get Netcenter in 17 international versions! And you'll be glad to know that navigating the net as a Netscape Netcenter member is both easy and fun. Keep in mind that many of our most popular services, like Webmail and Instant Messages, ARE RESERVED FOR REGISTERED MEMBERS. So why not join now and start enjoying all these FREE SERVICES and get a FREE CD from Music Boulevard! Sincerely, Tom Leonard Netcenter Marketing JOIN INSTANTLY! Click here and you're IN! http://home.netscape.com/welcome/musicblvd/3.html We respect your online time and Internet privacy. If you would prefer not to receive further marketing promotions from Netcenter, reply to this message with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. P.S. Join Netcenter NOW and get a free CD from Music Boulevard! Don't wait...there's no better time to join. We're eager to welcome you as a new Netscape Netcenter member. *Source: Los Angeles Times, 7/16/98 From mgering at ecosystems.net Wed Nov 4 15:17:59 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:17:59 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone Alternative Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B232@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> [dbts and e$ Cc: dropped] Petro wrote: > However, Privacy + Freedom == Anarchy, or close enough to be > indistinguishable. However much I may or may not agree with you, that is an entirely subjective judgement. In political context, anarchy = without rule of government -- nothing more, nothing less. That necessarily means you will have freedom from government, but does not imply you will have freedom from others. Ditto for privacy. In fact there is good claim that privacy will not exist in anarchy except by those that decide to use the tools and methods to achieve it -- cat and mouse game same as today, except the corporate cats are bound by economics (the value of data to them versus the cost to obtain it) whereas government cats are not. Matt From setiathome at ssl.Berkeley.EDU Wed Nov 4 15:28:05 1998 From: setiathome at ssl.Berkeley.EDU (SETI@home) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:28:05 +0800 Subject: SETI@home Project Update Message-ID: <199811042141.NAA10924@siren.ssl.berkeley.edu> Dear SETI at home volunteer: Thank you for signing up for SETI at home. We're on schedule to distribute the SETI at home screensaver program in April 1999, and we'll send you another email when that happens. On October 30 we began recording data at the world's largest radio telescope, located in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. Preliminary versions of the screensaver program and the data distribution system have been completed. On November 20 we will begin testing the system with a group of 100 users analyzing real data (sorry - no more volunteers needed). Over the next few months we will complete the testing, making sure the system will handle large numbers of users. We are pleased to thank SETI at home's sponsors and technology partners: the Planetary Society (a 100,000 member organization founded by Carl Sagan), Paramount Studios (in conjunction with their new movie, Star Trek IX: Insurrection), Sun Microsystems, EDT, Fuji Film Computer Products, Informix, and individual donors like you. The screen saver will be free for everyone, but if you can consider making a tax-deductible donation to SETI at home, please visit http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/donor.html. We also invite you to become a member of The Planetary Society. You can visit their site at http://www.planetary.org. For further SETI at home information and news, please see http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu. Thank you again for offering to participate in SETI at home. Our work is enhanced and inspired by the enthusiasm of thoughtful, adventurous, and generous people like you. If you wish to remove your name from the SETI at home email list, please send an empty email message to this address with subject header "remove". Best wishes, The SETI at home project From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 4 15:39:31 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:39:31 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811042301.RAA09484@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > Alternative > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:29:47 -0800 > Petro wrote: > > However, Privacy + Freedom == Anarchy, or close enough to be > > indistinguishable. This is silly. > for privacy. In fact there is good claim that privacy will not exist in > anarchy except by those that decide to use the tools and methods to achieve > it -- cat and mouse game same as today, except the corporate cats are bound > by economics (the value of data to them versus the cost to obtain it) > whereas government cats are not. They're bound by economics and nothing else, not even the government cats. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 4 15:46:56 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:46:56 +0800 Subject: DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to DriveeCash Forward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Okay. Contrary to my own previous -- and painfully recent -- opinions on the matter, Digicash, Inc., is, more or less, in play again, or it will be if there is enough money chasing it. Whatever "enough" means. Putting on my Gordon Gekko hat, here, I'm interested in finding out a few things. Yes, I have seen the greater fool theory of the blind signature patent operate more than a few times, but I am, nonetheless, driven to think about this, and I might as well be public in my musing, at least for the time being. For expenses of any new company, it should be pretty clear by now what I would do with the DigiCash technology portfolio. I would put a real good intellectual property lawyer on the payroll, keep the cryptographers who would still consent to stick around, keep or improve whatever software test people they have left, and do nothing but sell licenses and implementation certifications, using the the underwiting model at as a roadmap. For this imaginary company's revenue, aside from direct fees for validating a developer's, and possibly an underwriter's, implementation of the protocol, the trustee would be the only point of patent royalty collection and payment from the underwriters and developers to the new patent holder. As far as the current installed base is concerned, I would probably spin off a company to support those customers, and give it a non-exclusive license as if it were any other developer. This assumes, of course, that DigiCash BV/Inc. didn't issue exclusive-by-country licenses. While it appears on the surface that they have done exactly this, I have been met with what seems like incredulity from various DigiCash folks when I talk about it, so, for the time being, I'll take them at their word when they tell me it isn't so. Actually, when I think about it, it may be immaterial, as there are lots of countries on the internet to park underwriters and trustees in, and they can denominate their bearer cash instruments in any currency they want. One way or another, the software side of DigiCash would be gone. We figure out what the net present value is of the current licenses, and hope that a company can be formed around that cashflow and spun off into a separate software development company. If we're lucky, we make money on the spinoff and keep the patent. If we're not lucky, DigiCash will probably have to get rid of it's current obligations before *anyone* clueful would step in to pick up the patents, and just the patents, alone. Obviously, what has been spent so far building DigiCash, BV or Inc., is immaterial to any discussion of the future. Just like what happened to Chaum, et. al., when Negroponte and companies um, executed, the purchase of last version of DigiCash, we have to completely forget the all the money which has been spent on Digicash BV, now Digicash Inc., so far, and ignore the howls of the current investors, as painful as that may be to listen to. :-). They knew the job was dangerous when they took it, anyway... Okay, that's a nice story. How about some actual data? I expect the best way to get a handle of royalties is to start soliciting actual projected royalty estimates from potential developers and underwriters, but, frankly, I think that most developers and underwriters, like the rest of us, have no real idea how much money they're going to make. Nonetheless, if anyone's interested in telling me, offline, what they think they would would be fair royalty payments, either as an underwriter or as a developer, I'd like to hear their estimates. My PGP key is attached. My own rule of thumb, for cash anyway, is that an underwriter can probably charge no more than a bank charges to one of their non-customer ATM transactions. That's probably no more than $3.00 a withdrawl. They also get to keep the interest on the reserve account, if any, of course. Frankly, if the royalties are low enough, that may be more than enough revenue to bootstrap a business with, and I would personally lobby for as low a royalty structure as possible. That, of course, is driven entirely by the cost/revenue picture, but it might be that a majority of the short-term operations can be bootstrapped out of validation fees. That leaves all the other potential markets for blind-signature macroscale digital bearer settlement, everything from long-duration bandwidth purchases for IP or voice dialtone on up to actual securities transactions themselves. Most of these potential applications will occur after the patents expire, but whoever owns these patents should allow not only licenses to all comers, but, more to the point, should allow all *licensees* to worry about the legal ramafications of the patents' use. If a particular licensee can find a legal jurisdiction to offer utterly anonymous digital bearer instruments backed by totally anonymous reserves, then, as long as the licensee pays up, god bless 'em. The patents should be licensed within the law, certainly, but, other than that, their use should be considered value neutral, like all technology. As in all bearer markets before them, the digital bearer trustee will be the point of maximum legal compliance, and, as such, will be the functional "policeman" of the system. I leave the interesting solution of bearer-backed trustees for some other day, probably after the patents have long expired. Okay. There's lots more to talk about, of course, but I'm kind of tapped out on this for the time being. If you're an intellectual property lawyer, and you fancy yourself running the DigiCash patent portfolio, contact me directly. I'm not sure exactly what I can do, if anything, but I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on this, as the potential core person of this as yet imaginary enterprize, up to, and including what it would cost for you to sign on for this much fun as at least in-house counsel, if not the actual CEO. :-). In addition, if someone has a reasonable non-proprietary(!) estimate of the projected revenues on all those outstanding ecash contracts, that would be nice to know as well. The terms of those contracts, are, of course, probably unknowable at the moment, at least until someone has enough known scratch to belly up to the table, sign an NDA and take a peek. Of course, then they couldn't tell us anything anyway... Isn't this fun? Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 iQEVAwUBNkDcTMUCGwxmWcHhAQFEgwf8DBmtjkxkrvwRBNdaMHwLGkjPHPFvhrNq +IwQrajratocfyKDmeUIiC4EmPIFxstFg59plpzgnM8TTXqSebqsYZaycVZquo03 SDI2cXV9H4O+iUdW9glpT4R0aZbGMXTu3ji9wbvvYjSqVro4w6cq3f9Tk6QGGCdW AQQolnnTkSjqXeafWrD0WxDXbQCw83lKcrTmFHAkP/YzDD8Z5obVD4+THd3Zlcys jyAlvAcZFwcxtifumBh8vNrSLc0vdkdD4+Mw5TDRqRMHynF+DLE6Ek2kOL+3blJ2 R6vfaYzVJTRjJFtVdYrbctWAkbWCL/Obf31oZzsz1cWtNn6TgVmG/g== =M1uk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Here are my PGP keys, for them as want 'em: -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 mQGiBDS2zbQRBADkXbVlxD0ABf66RPDa//8wtyO3evDk3dMLl9gV9W6W8BQds9gM 2KyV/wnHq62tW7PSjw/CJY83da45KeX04LUNGD2TOOCRdYNBhVhmSWlXbomKMJNi +TCisQKnS9U/ybFEKJErNpoapsh6m02RK4WADZk0pwO1Rh4K+P6sVRJktwCg/8iQ uMwVCdEaKgo7RRTvRcA4NusEAIDKsblYtLCFagDELioT8YfV5FgROpmlhZWwCG7e VrKQwQCFawJqrORMVOkjmppYAvPMoiAXT1vdlHXecB8VSzQjH92e7mrN/PSWIuTg 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Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 4 15:59:21 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:59:21 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811042335.RAA09772@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:29:20 -0500 > From: Robert Hettinga > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > At 6:01 PM -0500 on 11/4/98, Jim Choate wrote, from the bowels of my killfile: > > > > They're bound by economics and nothing else, not even the government cats. > > Amen. Which is why it's a *BAD* idea. > A government is just another economic actor. A very large economic actor > with lots of guns and a monopoly on force, but an economic actor > nonetheless. You need to look around, the government has NO monopoly on force. > Reality is not optional. Absolutely, that's why any free-market/anarchy is doomed to fail. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 4 16:00:21 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:00:21 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811042301.RAA09484@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 6:01 PM -0500 on 11/4/98, Jim Choate wrote, from the bowels of my killfile: > They're bound by economics and nothing else, not even the government cats. Amen. A government is just another economic actor. A very large economic actor with lots of guns and a monopoly on force, but an economic actor nonetheless. Reality is not optional. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From solution at hampton.net Thu Nov 5 08:18:02 1998 From: solution at hampton.net (solution at hampton.net) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:18:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811051617.IAA13208@toad.com> 11/05/98 INTERNET NEWS 8 Pine Circle Dr. Silicon Valley,Ca. USA INTERNET NEWS/Y2K (YEAR 2000 SOLUTION) Most of the information from the silicon valley is obtained from the local pubs/bars. Un-named sources discussing the Y2K problem at the local brew revealed, that 2 of the big valley software manufacturers are in a bidding war for software technology created by a small publicly traded company OTC-BB symbol:"TCFG" that is in the process of obtaining a patent. This 3 year old emerging growth company has tested and out performed the "Big Boys" with a system industry experts consider to be a technological breakthrough! Several rogue ex-employees of the "giants" joined this company and claims abound about their success. If truth is stronger than fiction then "TCFG" is going to play with the big boys. We all know the Y2K problem and what the real solution would mean to all of us $$! How much will they pay "TCFG"? Back to the pub friday evening for more info... From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 5 08:34:55 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:34:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Project 415 Message-ID: <199811051634.LAA27413@camel8.mindspring.com> Paul Dore, a British engineer involved in SETI research who had picked up signals from a secret NSA/GCHQ intelligence satellite and believed them to be from outer space, was asked by the agencies on November 2 to cease and desist publishing his findings and to cancel a planned press conference to tell his latest news, or face punishment under the Official Secrets Act. The agencies said the satellite was part of "Project 415." http://jya.com/project415.htm This was noted here a few days ago, but that was before Paul's description of the agencies' visit to his home was pulled from its original URL, along with related files which described his findings as well as confirmations by other researchers: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/7193/cancelled.html A Project 415 (maybe the same) was first reported by Duncan Campbell in a 1988 article in The New Statesman, in which he also gave the first public description of ECHELON: http://jya.com/echelon-dc.htm It may not be related to Paul Dore's situation but Duncan's article has had some 9,000 downloads in the last 24 hours. Anyone seen a news report on the topic? Thanks to KF for the lead. From apowell at freedomforum.org Thu Nov 5 05:43:55 1998 From: apowell at freedomforum.org (Adam Powell) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: blunder, or forecast? Message-ID: Once again the Net had it first, this time by accident... http://www.freedomforum.org/technology/1998/11/4abc.asp ABC News election-eve Net 'mistake' accurately predicted most close races By Adam Clayton Powell III World Center 11.4.98 It did not happen, but just imagine if it had: The night before Fox television aired the World Series, the Fox Web site posts a complete set of inning-by-inning box scores for the upcoming Yankees-Padres games. After leaving the results online for a while, Fox pulls them down and says it was all a big mistake. Then the Yanks and the Padres play the Series, and nearly 90% of the innings show the same scoring as in the "mistake" posting. Sports fans, reporters and bookies would all cry foul, right? Now consider what happened this week: On Monday night, ABC News accidentally posted complete state-by-state election results on its Web site, hours before any votes were cast yesterday. ABC withdrew the numbers by mid-evening Monday, saying they were all a mistake and a test of their systems. "It wasn't our finest hour," Michelle Bergman, manager of communications for ABCNews.com, told the Associated Press yesterday. And, indeed, in the days before each national election, the major national news organizations hold "rehearsals" for reporting election night, using "dummy" numbers. Or maybe ... With almost all election districts reporting, those "phony" ABC News test numbers on Monday accurately matched the outcomes of the Senate and governor races in 61 of the 70 contests ^� 87%. It would be difficult to find a political analyst, pundit or bookie who even came close. While every major analyst on Sunday was predicting the Republicans would pick up anywhere from one to four Senate seats this week, ABC's test numbers on Monday had it right on the money: a 55-45 GOP-Democrat split, for no net change. Even more remarkable, in some of the most closely watched contests, ABC News election eve "test" numbers matched the final vote count almost precisely ^� within one percentage point. In the Florida governor's race, Jeb Bush beat Buddy MacKay by 55% to 45% ^� the exact final result rehearsed by ABC News on Monday. In Texas, Jeb's brother George won by 69% to Mauro's 30% ^� the very result used in the ABC rehearsal on Monday. ABC News rehearsal numbers also matched the exact final results, to within one percentage point, of the governors' races in Alabama, Colorado, Wisconsin and Wyoming. All told, ABC's "error" had the correct candidates winning the governors mansions in 32 of 36 elections yesterday. The only gubernatorial contests where ABC had the wrong candidate winning were in Hawaii, Iowa, New Mexico and Minnesota, where few predicted Reform Party candidate Jesse Ventura would be the new governor. In the Senate elections, ABC's test numbers matched the winners in 29 of 34 contests, including all of the major races. ABC on Monday had posted "WIN" indicators next to Boxer, Schumer, Fitzgerald, Murray and Hollings, all of whom won close races in California, New York, Illinois, Washington and South Carolina, respectively. ABC also had the correct result in Wisconsin. The final vote totals this afternoon showed Russ Feingold narrowly won reelection by 38,410 votes. On Monday, ABC's rehearsal numbers showed Feingold winning reelection by a margin of 39,000 votes. But ABC is not claiming these numbers were the result of any new forecasting models or special analysis. "It was completely random," Bergman told free! this afternoon. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology To subscribe: send a message to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu with this text: subscribe politech More information is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lmccarth at cs.umass.edu Wed Nov 4 18:25:23 1998 From: lmccarth at cs.umass.edu (Lewis McCarthy) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:25:23 +0800 Subject: Thurs. night seminar in W. Mass.: All About Alice (and Bob, Eve, and Oscar, too): The Research Culture of Cryptography Message-ID: <36410383.A502BDCF@cs.umass.edu> This talk by Jean-Francois Blanchette tomorrow (Thurs.) night may be of interest to those of you in the vicinity of western Massachusetts. Check www.hampshire.edu for a map and directions. Enjoy -Lewis --- begin forwarded message --- ISIS wrote: Seminar: All About Alice (and Bob, Eve, and Oscar, too): The Research Culture of Cryptography Location: West Lecture Hall, Franklin Patterson Hall, Hampshire College, =>=>=> Thursday, November 5, 7:30pm Modern cryptology researchers have been enthusiastically portrayed in the media as cyberspace's Freedom Fighters, and the fruit of their work, as tangible evidence that computers not only control, but can also liberate. In this seminar, we'll see how this simplistic picture of cryptological research shapes both the public perceptions of cryptology, and cryptologist's perceptions of themselves and their work. Jean-Francois Blanchette will discuss how the culture of secrecy and military intelligence has deeply informed the models cryptologists use to analyze and design security artifacts. He will also discuss how, from a initial concern with communication secrecy, cryptological research has dramatically expanded its scope to encompass digital signatures and certificates, watermarking, e-cash, copy-protection, and other domains. These are all artifacts of much broader cultural and societal import that can be fit under the analytical category of "privacy." Cryptologists, as well as the rest of us, have to imagine and invent richer and more complex representations of what cryptological research is about and what its object is, and to explore other social and ethical paradigms than those offered by privacy and confidentiality. Jean-Francois Blanchette is a graduate student in the Department of Science, Technology and Society at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Trained as a cryptologist, he is now researching and writing about the practices, cultures, and ethics of cryptology. --- end forwarded message --- From rusik_98 at chat.ru Thu Nov 5 10:33:30 1998 From: rusik_98 at chat.ru (Rusik) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:33:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: internet Message-ID: <002701be08ea$ce6d6d80$2ba2a6c3@------> Hi. i need to crack my internet provider. he use windows 95 operation system. can you help me??? have you any crackers?? or you know where i can find them or any literature that can help me??? � BYE with my best wishes Rusik From blancw at cnw.com Wed Nov 4 21:48:25 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:48:25 +0800 Subject: Quick, Dear -- Beat Me In-Reply-To: <199811041840.NAA00424@mail1.panix.com> Message-ID: <000401be087d$55f97aa0$3b8195cf@blanc> >From Duncan Frissell: : Protection of "victims" won't work if the new number is : reported to the Big Three credit reporting bureaus. ................................................... I just went to the bank I do business with this week to open a new account. They wanted my social security number, (which they actually already have on record), and during a search on her handy database, the Customer Assistance clerk informed me that there was another person in Florida using the same number. I don't presently have a credit card, so I'm not worried about losing any cash at this time. The clerk gave me a form to send to ChexSystems for a consumer report and advice to notify the Social Security dept about it. I don't really want to discuss it with them. Think it would be to my benefit to just leave it alone? Probbly not. .. Blanc From blancw at cnw.com Wed Nov 4 21:48:26 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:48:26 +0800 Subject: Who Cares Message-ID: <000601be087d$5cda57e0$3b8195cf@blanc> When the politicians speak they always make statements which imply that they're speaking to, and being heard by, the whole nation. I just read a notice that less than 40% of eligible voters went to the polls. Since the Republicans are still in the majority, this means that less than one quarter of the voting population supports Clinton as President. And only slightly more than one quarter support Republicans. This would be meaningful to me, if I was making policy: what are all those other people doing? .. Blanc From mgering at ecosystems.net Wed Nov 4 21:48:49 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:48:49 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B241@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> > They're bound by economics and nothing else, not even the > government cats. Which is preferable IMHO, and I think most here agree (at least in this context). As soon as you give some entity (e.g. government) the power of force to regulate privacy, you create an entity that will abuse that force and abuse privacy. Plus such regulations are a false security blanket that diminishes demand for true privacy-creating tools (cryptography) -- not to mention you current regime turns around and attacks those tools. Being bound by the law of economics is generally a good thing. Matt From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 4 21:58:08 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:58:08 +0800 Subject: Who Cares (fwd) Message-ID: <199811050539.XAA10683@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Blanc" > Subject: Who Cares > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:22:56 -0800 > When the politicians speak they always make statements which imply that they're > speaking to, and being heard by, the whole nation. I just read a notice that > less than 40% of eligible voters went to the polls. Since the Republicans are > still in the majority, this means that less than one quarter of the voting > population supports Clinton as President. And only slightly more than one > quarter support Republicans. This would be meaningful to me, if I was making > policy: what are all those other people doing? If you're talking about the people who didn't vote, they're trying to keep from going under. Probably working two jobs, keeping the kids in school and out of trouble, saving for college, paying the house morgage off, etc. Who's in office won't make a whit of difference to any of that. It's irrelevant. If you're talking about the politicians, they're laughing their ass off on the way to the bank to cash their tax-derived income. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mgering at ecosystems.net Wed Nov 4 22:02:30 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:02:30 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B242@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Robert Hettinga wrote: > A government is just another economic actor. A very large > economic actor with lots of guns and a monopoly on force, > but an economic actor nonetheless. No they are not, nor will they necessarily recognize the economic consequences of their actions before they entirely self-destruct or mutate only to do it again. History shows this. I generally use the economic/political distinction as made by Franz Oppenheimer, and furthered by Rothbard, Rand, etc. In that context they are a political actor, not an economic one. I purposefully ignored the prospect of corporations using coercive force to prevent privacy, it is rather improbable and still preferable to government coercion -- but note they do use coercive force today preventing privacy, but government is their instrument of force. Jim Choate wrote: > You need to look around, the government has NO monopoly on force. They have a *legal* monopoly on force (within a state). You do not generally consider the black market in determining monopolistic conditions, and in fact the existence of a black market in a segment generally points to a coercive monopoly in the public one. Matt From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 4 22:02:31 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:02:31 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811050545.XAA10791@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:20:34 -0800 > > They're bound by economics and nothing else, not even the > > government cats. > > Which is preferable IMHO, and I think most here agree (at least in this > context). As soon as you give some entity (e.g. government) the power of > force to regulate privacy, Woah there cowboy, just exactly how the hell do you jump from economics to privacy...talk about a strawman. > you create an entity that will abuse that force Abuse is the nature of man, not economics, privacy, government systems, etc. They're things, they have no desire and most definitely have no concept of privacy, economics, duty, etc. A a person or persons are abused it's by another person or persons. > Plus such regulations are a false security blanket that > diminishes demand for true privacy-creating tools (cryptography) -- not to > mention you current regime turns around and attacks those tools. It depends on the regulation and how it's applied. You simply can't equitably apply the statement that all regulation is bad because it's equaly clear that no regulation has its own pitfalls and abuses. > Being bound by the law of economics is generally a good thing. Yes, provided you have 'fair competition' which you can't in a free market. Provided all companies and their management operate within some sort of ethical guidelines, which they won't (and don't). And on and on. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 4 22:04:53 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:04:53 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:06 AM -0800 11/4/98, Petro wrote: > What if, instead of trying to entirely prevent leakage, one did a >combination of "redirecting" and "masking" emissions. > > Keep in mind I am asking from a point of total ignorance. > > To break the question down further, a tempest attack is limited by >2 things, distance from the machine (IIRC, the "level" or "strength" of RF >emissions drops by the square of the distance correct?) and (possibly) the >presence of other sources of RF in about the same bands. > > Assuming that the signal level drops by the square of the distance, >then one is far more likely to get tempested from a van outside than an >airplane overhead correct? In that case, simply design one of Mr. May's >brazed copper boxes so that it is open something similar to: [diagram of semi-open box elided] Radio waves scatter...they don't just travel in pure line of sight. And even if they travelled only in line of sight, the reflections from inside the box and then into the room and then off surfaces.... Microwave ovens work by having the waves bounce around inside a box. Any significant hole or crack (up to roughly half the wavelength) would let the waves out. An open top box will not work. >The other question is how hard, given a _specific_ machine would it be to >create a "RF" jammer? Sort of an active defense versus the passive defense >of a Tempest sheild. build a device that measures the RF coming off a >machine, and rebroadcasts the opposite (i.e. the negation) of the signal? >This should, or could "flatten" the signal making it useless. Unlikely to prevent someone from figuring out what the real signal is. It's very difficult, generally, to hide a signal with another signal. Noise won't work, because noise can be filtered or autocorrelated out. A "spoof" signal can be corrected for. And we are talking about 100 dB sorts of suppression. Mere factors of a few with fake signals and noise are meaningless on this scale. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 4 22:18:21 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:18:21 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811050554.XAA10925@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:43:31 -0800 > Robert Hettinga wrote: > > A government is just another economic actor. A very large > > economic actor with lots of guns and a monopoly on force, > > but an economic actor nonetheless. > > No they are not, Yes, they are. Can you say 'taxes'? Can you say 'interstate commerce'? Can you say 'mint money'? Can you say 'federal reserve'? Can you say 'FDIC'? I thought so. > nor will they necessarily recognize the economic > consequences of their actions before they entirely self-destruct or mutate > only to do it again. History shows this. Really? What history? > I generally use the economic/political distinction as made by Franz > Oppenheimer, and furthered by Rothbard, Rand, etc. In that context they are > a political actor, not an economic one. False distinction. Politics is about control and power, and in human society that breaks down to force and money. > I purposefully ignored the prospect > of corporations using coercive force to prevent privacy, it is rather There you go again, confusing privacy with economics... > improbable and still preferable to government coercion -- but note they do > use coercive force today preventing privacy, but government is their > instrument of force. True, but that isn't a function of regulation per se only the particular type of regulation that we have implimented. You're arguing from a specific example and trying to extrapolate to a general rule and it don't fly. > Jim Choate wrote: > > You need to look around, the government has NO monopoly on force. > > They have a *legal* monopoly on force (within a state). No, they don't. It is perfectly legal for an individual to own a weapon. There is also a clear distinction between the local police, your state police, federal agents, military, etc. Lumping them all into one generic category is a disservice and is unrealistic (especialy since they are often in adversarial roles) if we really want to understand how our society works and where we can take it. > You do not generally > consider the black market in determining monopolistic conditions, and in > fact the existence of a black market in a segment generally points to a > coercive monopoly in the public one. No it doesn't. It points to the fact that individuals want to participate in some activity that some other party doesn't want to occur. It does not imply that the regulating party wants the potential income from those activities. Further more, even in a free-market there will exist black markets. It's always cheaper to buy stolen merchandise than legitimately purchased merchandise. The aspect of a free-market is that there is no consequence from such actions (unless you want to admit to allowing corporations to have their own hit squads). Again, a function of human psychology and not economics or political systems. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 4 22:33:28 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:33:28 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) Message-ID: <199811050611.AAA10989@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:45:29 -0800 > From: Tim May > Subject: Re: TEMPEST laptops > Radio waves scatter...they don't just travel in pure line of sight. And > even if they travelled only in line of sight, the reflections from inside > the box and then into the room and then off surfaces.... It depends on the frequency. Last time I checked a laser or a maser (both are radio waves strictly speaking) travel LOS. The scattering comes from beam divergence and incidental refractions and reflections from the molecules in the air and supported detritus. > Microwave ovens work by having the waves bounce around inside a box. Any > significant hole or crack (up to roughly half the wavelength) would let the > waves out. Depends on the size of the hole and location. In most microwave ovens there are definite dead-spots (corners and the exact center of the area are notorius). > An open top box will not work. If the microwaves (for example) are transmitted parallel to the open side it might very well work just fine. It's going to depend on a variety of factors that will preclude such a blanket statement from being valid. > Unlikely to prevent someone from figuring out what the real signal is. It's > very difficult, generally, to hide a signal with another signal. Noise > won't work, because noise can be filtered or autocorrelated out. A "spoof" > signal can be corrected for. For these to work there must be a time-correlated aspect to the signal that doesn't appear in the noise. If you mask the signal with the same sort of time correlated cover (eg phase shifting) it also might work. > And we are talking about 100 dB sorts of suppression. Mere factors of a few > with fake signals and noise are meaningless on this scale. The absolute magnitude isn't really important. Most of the signals that are emitted by a computer are not in the 100dB dynamic range (@2x=3db that's a signal range of 1:33) , more likely 40-50db if that. For a TTL (5V) signal it barely covers 3dB (LOW is <2.5v and a high is >=4.75). There simply is no way in hell a signal with a 3dB range is going to emit a rf signal that is 100dB. There are other logic families with wider dynamic ranges (eg CMOS w/ 18V Vcc can be nearly 18V or approx. about 12dB). ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jcutler at via.net Wed Nov 4 23:09:07 1998 From: jcutler at via.net (John Cutler) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:09:07 +0800 Subject: Cryptography Study Group - Palo Alto Message-ID: <199811050645.WAA10935@mustang.via.net> A Palo Alto-centered cryptography study group has been been formed. Our first project is to read Schneier's "Applied Cryptography." We meet a couple times each week to go over assigned reading and to play with ideas about cryptography. While the current participants all have a professional interest in the field, we are loosely organized. Readings are decided at the previous meeting giving us the flexibility to explore particular ideas in depth. Please contact me if you would like to join us. John Cutler jcutler at via.net From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Nov 4 23:47:18 1998 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:47:18 +0800 Subject: Kong Re: Using a password as a private key. In-Reply-To: <199810291821.TAA03804@replay.com> Message-ID: <199811050725.XAA01933@proxy4.ba.best.com> -- At 0144 PM 11/1/98 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote > By the way, you don't want to hit the "view" button > after checking this one - you'll get > Run-Time Error 3021 - No current Record > and then Kong dies. Thanks I should release a fix on Monday the 9th. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG z/IoeOpshxPsz77gDorN0rrSb3hSKRfq8BJoUrHV 4MW1ljpG5hCWlOTNpmvtqe+qucj/X1317qNUJjGxf ----------------------------------------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. http://www.jim.com/jamesd/����� James A. Donald From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 4 23:47:45 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:47:45 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811050611.AAA10989@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 10:11 PM -0800 11/4/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:45:29 -0800 >> From: Tim May >> Subject: Re: TEMPEST laptops > >> Radio waves scatter...they don't just travel in pure line of sight. And >> even if they travelled only in line of sight, the reflections from inside >> the box and then into the room and then off surfaces.... > >It depends on the frequency. Last time I checked a laser or a maser (both >are radio waves strictly speaking) travel LOS. The scattering comes from >beam divergence and incidental refractions and reflections from the >molecules in the air and supported detritus. Oh come on, let's not get into sophistry. And lasers are not considered to be radio frequency devices by anyone I know of...visible, IR, and UV lasers are all treated as _photon_ devices, "light." (Yes, yes, I know about particles vs. waves.) >If the microwaves (for example) are transmitted parallel to the open side it >might very well work just fine. It's going to depend on a variety of >factors that will preclude such a blanket statement from being valid. Nope, they'll still get out. The parallel mirror scenario. >Most of the signals that are emitted by a computer are not in the 100dB >dynamic range (@2x=3db that's a signal range of 1:33) , more likely 40-50db >if that. For a TTL (5V) signal it barely covers 3dB (LOW is <2.5v and a >high is >=4.75). There simply is no way in hell a signal with a 3dB range is >going to emit a rf signal that is 100dB. There are other logic families with >wider dynamic ranges (eg CMOS w/ 18V Vcc can be nearly 18V or approx. about >12dB). We're talking about signal strength of the emitted RF being knocked down 80 or 100 dB by the shielding. This is a common way of talking about the effectiveness of a Faraday cage. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From guy at panix.com Thu Nov 5 00:37:30 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:37:30 +0800 Subject: "Practical Joke" Message-ID: <199811050812.DAA02571@panix7.panix.com> >Pssst... > >When John Glenn returns from space, everyone dress in ape suits. > >Pass it on. From howree at cable.navy.mil Thu Nov 5 03:47:01 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (HT1 HOWELL, REESE R-7 X7572 PRD 03/98) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:47:01 +0800 Subject: is it real? 2 In-Reply-To: <19981104113503.B4836@mail.roava.net> Message-ID: <199811051303.IAA00882@rps1.cable.navy.mil> > On Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 09:52:29PM -0800, zERoe wrote: >>for your info, please. >> >>Just in case....... >>......... basically.... don't install Windows 98 ..... since they have >>this "added" function..... =) --snip-- On or around Wed, 4 Nov 1998 entropi wrote: > While some of the "information" cited in this post is technically possible, as a > sys admin at a small start-up ISP, I can guarantee you that at least one ISP in the US is not kissing MS's ass in such a fashion. --snip-- I do not see where the cooperation of the ISP would be required, unless the user had used fictitious or obviously false names and company names (where required) for the registration of the programs in question. I for one, find the claims that M$ is doing this entirely believable, it is well within the capability of the program to perform this function without the user being aware. what I want to know is, is it just Win98 that does this, or does Win95 (any version) with Ie4 do this also??? Reeza! From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 05:21:32 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:21:32 +0800 Subject: Netscape inside scoop on "Smart Browsing" Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: tarnhelm.blu.org: majordom set sender to owner-isig at blu.org using -f From: rivalcs at ma.ultranet.com To: Subject: Netscape inside scoop on "Smart Browsing" Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:00:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-isig at blu.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: isig at blu.org > * IS SMART BROWSING REALLY SO SMART? > (contributed by Mark Joseph Edwards, http://www.ntsecurity.net) > Many of you are aware of Netscape's new versions of its Navigator Web > browser. But do you also know that, starting with version 4.06, the > product's Smart Browsing feature can report to Netscape every Web page > you visit, including addresses to private sites on your internal > network? And are you aware that when you download a secure version of > Netscape's browser, the process places a cookie on your system that can > match your name and address to your Web surfing habits? Matt Curtin, > Gary Ellison, and Doug Monroe of Interhack published a report that > outlines the details. Netscape's What's Related? browser feature (a > technology provided by Alexa Internet) seems to be the cause of this > potential invasion of privacy. For those who don't know, the What's > Related? feature delivers a list of URLs associated with the Web page > you're visiting. The feature does this by automatically appending the > URL of the page you're visiting to the end of another URL and sending > it to a server at Netscape. For example, if you visit my Web site > (http://www.ntsecurity.net), the URL that Netscape receives is > http://www-rl4.netscape.com/wtgn?www.ntsecurity.net. And when Netscape > uses this URL to return a list of URLs for related sites, the URLs > aren't directly linked-they go through Netscape, telling Netscape which > site, if any, you chose from the list. The related URLs link to > http://info.netscape.com, which forwards you to the intended > destination. The link URLs look like this: > http://info.netscape.com/fwd/rl/http://www.ntshop.net:80/. > The report states that the group isn't accusing anyone of malice, and > clearly points out that even the best-intended systems can have > undesirable consequences. The real bone to pick here is the lack of > disclosure to potential users of the Smart Browsing technology, and > lack of a statement about the intended storage and use of private > browsing information collected from unsuspecting Netscape users. > According to the report, the feature enables by default, and no > documentation on the feature existed until the report became public. I > don't know about you, but if I bought a new Corvette from General > Motors (GM), and the Corvette reported to GM every place I went, I'd > expect GM to tell me up front. Otherwise, I'd feel deceived and taken > advantage of. But then again, maybe I'm being paranoid when I assume > that private actions should remain private. > http://www.interhack.net/pubs/whatsrelated/ > http://home.netscape.com/escapes/related/faq.html > Rick Desautels Sr. Systems Engineer Rival Computer Solutions rivalcs at ma.ultranet.com -- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to majordomo at blu.org with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe isig --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 06:04:19 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:04:19 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) Message-ID: <199811051325.HAA11660@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:19:17 -0800 > From: Tim May > Subject: Re: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) > >It depends on the frequency. Last time I checked a laser or a maser (both > >are radio waves strictly speaking) travel LOS. The scattering comes from > >beam divergence and incidental refractions and reflections from the > >molecules in the air and supported detritus. > > Oh come on, let's not get into sophistry. And lasers are not considered to > be radio frequency devices by anyone I know of...visible, IR, and UV lasers > are all treated as _photon_ devices, "light." (Yes, yes, I know about > particles vs. waves.) p-v-w is irrelevent. No Tim, it's photons as the intermediate vector boson for EM radiation. *ALL* physicist consider light to be hi-freq radio waves, or radio waves to be low-freq light. Hell, strictly speaking standing in the middle of a dark room waving a bar magnet back and forth is a very low freq. flash light. And you have a physics degree...... > Nope, they'll still get out. The parallel mirror scenario. Irrelevant. Last time I checked my microwave was 8 corner reflectors. That says that ultimately the ray goes back along the way it came with a shift in beam axis. How a microwave works is that up in one corner is a small grating. Behind that grating is a magnetron/klystron/etc. tube. That tube sends a beam out through that little grating. The axis of the tube is slightly mis-aligned ,otherwise the beam would come back into the tube and burn it out - also why you don't put metal things in there, it disrupts the reflection pattern. As a consequence of this design the corners and the exact center of the cavity don't get enough microwave radiation to do much of anything with. If you were to actualy map the microwaves you'd see beams bouncing back and forth and not continous coverage. There are actualy spots in every microwave oven cavity that get zero radiation. Anything put in there cooks as a function of the water in its neighbor heating up and transfered by the standard thermodynamic (which is also EM by the way) mechanism. Test it yourself. > We're talking about signal strength of the emitted RF being knocked down > 80 or 100 dB by the shielding. This is a common way of talking about the > effectiveness of a Faraday cage. True, the point I'm trying to make to you folks is that it *ISN'T* the absolute level of the signal that you are necessarily concerned with but rather the dynamic range in that signal. Simply knowing there's a 3mV signal out there won't do you a damn bit of good unless you have enough signal range to decode the contents. In actuality you could be emitting GW's of signal and if there was only say 1uV of signal range you'd never get anything off it. It just occured to me that one way to weaken TEMPEST is to mask the signals (not sure exactly how) that are emitted by encrypting (ie whitening) the signal when it's on exposed/radiating buss or connector. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 06:08:53 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:08:53 +0800 Subject: Cryptography Study Group - Palo Alto (fwd) Message-ID: <199811051335.HAA11763@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:45:42 -0800 > From: John Cutler > Subject: Cryptography Study Group - Palo Alto > A Palo Alto-centered cryptography study group has been been formed. > Our first project is to read Schneier's "Applied Cryptography." We > meet a couple times each week to go over assigned reading and to play > with ideas about cryptography. While the current participants all > have a professional interest in the field, we are loosely organized. > Readings are decided at the previous meeting giving us the flexibility > to explore particular ideas in depth. > > Please contact me if you would like to join us. This is a GREAT! idea John. If you don't object, and since Austin Cypherpunks are dead dead dead, I believe I'll start something similar. I think the approach I'll use is a bit different in that I'm going to ask participants to read say the first chapter and get together over some period and actualy write a program (probably in Perl) that impliments the topic(s) under discussion. If it were to meet say every other week for two hours they should be able to go through a chapter every couple of months or so. Now I've got to find a place suitable....:) ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From agin at tiac.net Thu Nov 5 07:10:44 1998 From: agin at tiac.net (Warren E. Agin) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:10:44 +0800 Subject: DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to Driv In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811051422.OAA10028@mail-out-4.tiac.net> Finally, some real meat for a bankruptcy/technology lawyer. I've been predicting for some time now that technology companies will start to use the bankruptcy process as the industry starts to shake out. The PR aside, these filings are generally prompted by one or more strata of large debt obligations or convertable securities, and the company's inability to continue to make required payments. What DigiCash will probably do is restructure its existing debt structures while seeking partners to obtain additional cash flows needed to continue operations. I'll be interested to see how it all works out. -Warren Agin Boston, Massachusetts > FYI... > > DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to Drive eCash Forward > > PALO ALTO, CALIF.--November 4, 1998 > > DigiCash Inc. has announced that it is entering into a Chapter 11 > reorganization to allow it to pursue strategic alternatives for its > electronic cash ("eCash" T) products and the associated intellectual assets > pioneered by DigiCash. > ___________________________________________________ Warren E. Agin Law Offices of Warren E. Agin 76 Canal Street, Boston MA 02114 (617)227-3201 (f)(617) 227-6365 www.agin.com ___________________________________________________ From declan at well.com Thu Nov 5 07:11:15 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:11:15 +0800 Subject: Y2K prompts many to prepare, 6-month delays now common Message-ID: <199811051431.GAA21966@smtp.well.com> >X-Sender: declan at mail.well.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 >Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:24:55 -0500 >To: politech at vorlon.mit.edu >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: FC: Y2K prompts many to prepare, 6-month delays now common >Sender: owner-politech at vorlon.mit.edu >Reply-To: declan at well.com >X-Loop: politech at vorlon.mit.edu >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ > >[I think this is important news: Y2K fear has grown faster than many of us >expected it would. Companies tell me that unless you place your order by >early next year, you'll receive it after 1-1-00. --Declan] > > >http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16035.html > > Companies selling bulk food, > generators, and solar energy systems > report backlogs of up to six months. The > reason: nationwide hand-wringing over > the millennium bug. By Declan McCullagh. > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology >To subscribe: send a message to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu with this text: >subscribe politech >More information is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 07:32:11 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:32:11 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. Message-ID: <199811051447.IAA12209@einstein.ssz.com> Here's a simple way to test the bounce-pattern of your micro-wave oven: - Go to your local hobby store and buy some small balsa or pine sheeting, stringers (4x), and glue (non-water based). You'll also need several small open top containers (like a shot glass but smaller for best effect) and a marker. - Cut the stringers to the vertical height of your oven cavity. - Cut the sheeting into 1in. sq. pieces. - Mark the stringers evenly such that there is enough room to glue the sheeting between the stringers, forming a multi-leveled tower. - On each level place your container with a suitable amount of water (fill it almost to the brim). - Place the tower w/ it's containers in one of the corners. Mark a line around the base so you know where you been. - Start your microwave up (adjust time as needed, say start with 30s) and note the temperature of each container after the time. Note that putting your thermometer in there will cool it slightly and you'll also need to have the same number of runs and levels so so each level can be measured immediately after opening the door. If you have access to an optical pyrometer you could potentialy measure them all. - Once you've measured it here, move it over to be adjacent to the lines you drew above, outline the base again and repeat as needed. - Run your regression and your done, tadah. Some glasses will be hot, others won't. Trace the path of the beam out of the magnetron and you'll get a good idea of what your oven is really doing. Whether the cavity is stricly a corner reflector (ie corners are square) or is trapezoidal (slightly off square to help disperse the bounce pattern not the beam) is irrelevant to the actual holes in the pattern, they will be there. I'll mention but not go into the shadowing effect of objects placed in the cavity and the requirement for even cooking means that they have to be rotated for even dispersal of the cooking effect. Another indication that the beam doesn't disperse as widely or quickly as some claim. On another topic about holes and escaping microwaves, if the holes are the right size (which the screen in the glass in the front of your oven is) they will preferentialy absorb the microwave, if it's correctly grounded very little of the radiation will escape (as you can measure with a standard microwave oven leak detector). Now, let's talk about ways to build a laptop that will reduce the emissed radiation to a minimum. First, put all the computing guts into a small box that is well grounded (running on a battery will pretty much screw you here since it ain't grounded unless you drive a stake into the ground). Then make sure that any openings or gaps are in the front edge or on the bottem pointed down. There should be no breaks in the sides, rear, or top. Make sure the floppy, CD, hard drive are placed in the front of the laptop container adjacent to the metal box above and make sure any openings in them point out. The reason you want the openings in the front edge is that your body will make a very good sheild to that hi-energy rf that folks want to tap. The openings on the bottem will direct it to the ground where where they are absorbed (why they call it a ground-plane). Make sure that all cabling from the peripherals to the computing box are shielded (remember, ground the shield at one end only). The seam or hinge between the display and the case should be shielded with standard copper fingers. The cabling should also be well shielded. Make sure there is a grounded screen covering the front of the LCD (and for gods sake don't ever use a plasma display). The exterior case should be metal (why I love my Tadpole 3XP and IBM N40). All openings for batteries and such should be screwed down and not simply retained by a latch of some sort. The *ONLY* way to power the laptop should be by battery. There should be no provision to power it off the ac mains (this is going to be inconvenient since you'll need to carry extra batteries, an external charger for them, and the screw drivers and such to change them - no simply and easy pop-outs here). As to the display, the ideal display would be a dual-display HMD that was also sheilded. This is based on the assumption that if your data is so sensitive that you don't want people snarking it out of the air you probably don't want them reading it over your shoulder (up close or through a tele-photo). If you do decide to stake your laptop as refered above there are a few things to know.... - Make sure the stake is in suitable ground without lots of quartz and other similar peizo-electric materials. - The stake should extend at least 3ft. into the ground. - When the stake is driven in, the ground should be thoroughly wetted which usualy means quite a bit of water (30 gals or so should do it), if possible wet it over a 24 hour period prior to staking. - Make sure the stake and the cable leading to the laptop are copper (or silver if you're rich) - You don't want to be close to phone, power, and other sorts of underground utilities. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From apf2 at apf2.com Thu Nov 5 07:38:44 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:38:44 +0800 Subject: Who Cares (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981105143404.00885e50@apf2.com> > >Forwarded message: > >> From: "Blanc" >> policy: what are all those other people doing? > >From: Jim Choate >If you're talking about the people who didn't vote, they're trying to keep >from going under. Probably working two jobs, keeping the kids in school and >out of trouble, saving for college, paying the house morgage off, etc. Who's >in office won't make a whit of difference to any of that. It's irrelevant. > >If you're talking about the politicians, they're laughing their ass off on >the way to the bank to cash their tax-derived income. > > And then there are those of us who are denied our opportunity to vote because the damn absentee ballot always seems to arrive a week after the election!! Coincidence? Bad Luck? Or is it design? APF From agin at tiac.net Thu Nov 5 07:39:50 1998 From: agin at tiac.net (Warren E. Agin) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:39:50 +0800 Subject: DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to Driv In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811051508.PAA16694@mail-out-4.tiac.net> For those who are really interested, the DigiCash Incorporated Chapter 11 case was filed in the Northern District of California. The case number is 98-58986. ___________________________________________________ Warren E. Agin Law Offices of Warren E. Agin 76 Canal Street, Boston MA 02114 (617)227-3201 (f)(617) 227-6365 www.agin.com ___________________________________________________ From agin at tiac.net Thu Nov 5 07:40:12 1998 From: agin at tiac.net (Warren E. Agin) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:40:12 +0800 Subject: (Fwd) Re: DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners Message-ID: <199811051508.PAA16689@mail-out-4.tiac.net> For those who are really interested, the DigiCash Incorporated Chapter 11 case was filed in the Northern District of California. The case number is 98-58986. -Warren Agin ___________________________________________________ Warren E. Agin Law Offices of Warren E. Agin 76 Canal Street, Boston MA 02114 (617)227-3201 (f)(617) 227-6365 www.agin.com ___________________________________________________ From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 5 07:40:23 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:40:23 +0800 Subject: US Cyberthreat Policy Message-ID: <199811051449.JAA12327@camel8.mindspring.com> The USIA E-journal, Foreign Policy Agenda, for November is titled "Cyberthreat: Protecting US Information Networks." It has articles by the head of NSA, DoD's Hamre, CIAO's Hunker, Y2K Office's Koskinen, Senator Kyl, and reps from Microsoft, IBM and others: http://www.usia.gov/journals/itps/1198/ijpe/toc.htm Martin Libicki of RAND criticizes the administration's crypto policy for hindering widespread information protection: http://jya.com/ml110498.htm From bartvmoorsel at kivi.nl Thu Nov 5 08:09:19 1998 From: bartvmoorsel at kivi.nl (Bart van Moorsel) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:09:19 +0800 Subject: How to save a real audio stream? Message-ID: <3641C1C5.9AF5A93C@kivi.nl> Can anybody explain how to save a real audio stream? I think I saw this question before, sorry to ask for a replay. From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 5 09:30:16 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:30:16 +0800 Subject: Quick, Dear -- Beat Me In-Reply-To: <199811041840.NAA00424@mail1.panix.com> Message-ID: At 12:08 AM -0500 11/5/98, Blanc wrote: >From Duncan Frissell: > >: Protection of "victims" won't work if the new number is >: reported to the Big Three credit reporting bureaus. >................................................... > >I just went to the bank I do business with this week to open a new account. >They wanted my social security number, (which they actually already have on >record), and during a search on her handy database, the Customer Assistance >clerk informed me that there was another person in Florida using the same >number. > >I don't presently have a credit card, so I'm not worried about losing any cash >at this time. The clerk gave me a form to send to ChexSystems for a >consumer >report and advice to notify the Social Security dept about it. I don't >really >want to discuss it with them. Think it would be to my benefit to just >leave it >alone? Probbly not. If they are using your name as well, they could be damaging your credit rating. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 5 09:33:06 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:33:06 +0800 Subject: Who Cares In-Reply-To: <000601be087d$5cda57e0$3b8195cf@blanc> Message-ID: At 12:22 AM -0500 11/5/98, Blanc wrote: > When the politicians speak they always make statements which imply that >they're >speaking to, and being heard by, the whole nation. I just read a notice >that >less than 40% of eligible voters went to the polls. Since the >Republicans are >still in the majority, this means that less than one quarter of the voting >population supports Clinton as President. And only slightly more than one >quarter support Republicans. This would be meaningful to me, if I was making >policy: what are all those other people doing? The fact that it is meaningful to you means you will never (as long as it is meaningful to you) get anywhere as a politician, as you still actively beleive that a politican is there to do the will of the people. This can be demonstrated to be a false assumption. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 5 09:33:39 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:33:39 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811042301.RAA09484@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 6:01 PM -0500 11/4/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> From: Matthew James Gering >> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone >> Alternative >> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:29:47 -0800 > >> Petro wrote: >> > However, Privacy + Freedom == Anarchy, or close enough to be >> > indistinguishable. > >This is silly. And you're a fool, but I can be serious. Try reading what I said, and (I know this is difficult for you) THINK ABOUT IT. Anarchy is usually defined as the absense of government. What exactly makes up a "government", what are it's defining characteristics? Simply a device for reallocating wealth?--Insufficient, there are lots of mechanisms for that. A body that lays down standards and rules of conduct?--Sounds like a church or industry consortium to me. A heirarchical (sp?) structure that uses fear, propaganda and force to reallocate wealth, enforce standards and rules of conduct, and other things at whim (for varying values of "whim", from the "whim" of a dictator, to the "whim" of the "body politic"). Now, THAT is a government. Yes, some of what it enforces is probably a good idea (i.e. everyone driving on the same side of the road, &etc) some if it is kinda silly (don't smoke dope, or you're going to jail (Here, have a beer)), and some of it is downright stupid and shortsighted (encryption policy, not drinking beer out of a bucket on the sidewalk). Anarchy is not having to be effected by that, being "free" to follow what one thinks is right. How one gets to that state is not really relevent. My statement above simply lays out the position having Privacy (for large enough values of privacy to be meaningful) and Freedom (for large enough values of Freedom to be meaningful) one is effectively in an anarchistic state. That is what "close enough to be meaningful" meant. Privacy is (at least it's my understanding) the ability to hide or mask information in such a way that only people you wish to have access to it do. There are varying degrees of Privacy, from "Well, at least they don't analyize what's in my feeces, even if they do watch me take it" to being able to completely hide any information at all from anyone. Freedom is the ability to make choices, and exercise those choices. Just like privacy, there are varying degrees of freedom, from the convict who can chose wheter he/she wants to eat that slop or go hungry, to the president of the US who can (apparently) bomb people with impunity, lie under oath & etc. When the amount of freedom and privacy is high enough, it is indistinguishable from anarchy. No one, wheter part of some heirarchial structure or not can force you to do certain things, or to live a certain way, or to pay a given percentage of your time (labor, money, life) to them for "services" of dubious value. Now, I realize that if I were just speaking to Jim, this would be a waste of time, because he consistently fails to read entire paragraphs, misunderstands simple terms, and doesn't always manage to connect dependent clauses, but there may be some out there who could provide a reasonable critique of what I am saying, and may even be able to give me some food for thought. >> for privacy. In fact there is good claim that privacy will not exist in >> anarchy except by those that decide to use the tools and methods to achieve Privacy doesn't exist anywhere unless one chooses to use the tools and methods to acheive it. If I don't want privacy, or if it isn't of value to me, I shouldn't have to be bound by it. If I do want it, I should be able take steps (analagous to putting up curtains on a bay-window) to secure it. Governments cannot provide large values of privacy, it's not how they work. They can limit exposure, but that is more of a false privacy than real privacy. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 09:33:45 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:33:45 +0800 Subject: IP: Text: Gore Announces New SS# Effort for Victims of Domestic Violence Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com X-Sender: believer at telepath.com Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:31:32 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Text: Gore Announces New SS# Effort for Victims of Domestic Violence Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: list Reply-To: believer at telepath.com Source: USIA http://www.usia.gov/current/news/latest/98110403.wlt.html?/products/washfile /newsitem.shtml 04 November 1998 TEXT: GORE ANNOUNCES EFFORT FOR VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE (SS numbers to be changed to help victims escape abusers) (630) Washington -- Vice President Al Gore announced November 4 a new policy to allow victims of domestic violence to change their Social Security number. "Today, our message to the victims of these hateful crimes is this: we will offer you the protection you need to regain your safety and rebuild your life. You have suffered enough without having to fight for the protections you need to start a new life for yourself and your children," Gore said, according to a press release from his office. The vice president also mentioned a new booklet, "Protecting Victims of Domestic Violence: A Law Enforcement Officer's Guide to Enforcing Orders of Protection Nationwide," that outlines the meaning of the Violence Against Women Act's requirement to give full faith and credit orders of protection for victims of domestic violence. Following is the text of the release: (Begin text) November 4, 1998 THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Vice President For Immediate Release Wednesday, November 4, 1998 VICE PRESIDENT GORE ANNOUNCES NEW POLICY TO ALLOW VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE TO CHANGE THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER Washington, DC -- Vice President Gore announced today a new effort to help victims of domestic violence escape their abusers -- a federal policy that will make it easier for victims to change their social security numbers. "Today, our message to the victims of these hateful crimes is this: we will offer you the protection you need to regain your safety and rebuild your life," Vice President Gore said. "You have suffered enough without having to fight for the protections you need to start a new life for yourself and your children." For the first time, victims of domestic violence will be able to get a new Social Security number simply by providing written affirmation of their domestic abuse from a third party, such as a local shelter, treating physician, or law enforcement official. The Social Security Administration's (SSA) employees in field offices nationwide will work closely with local domestic violence shelters, the police, the courts, treating physicians, medical facilities, and psychologists to help victims of domestic violence get the documentation necessary to secure a new Social Security number. Previously, the SSA required victims to provide proof that their abuser had misused their Social Security number. For victims of domestic violence, providing this kind of proof was extremely difficult -- only victims who were severely abused or who were in danger of losing their lives were allowed to change their Social Security number. To improve its services to victims of domestic violence, the SSA will post on its web site the steps a victim needs to take to change their Social Security number and provide important referral information. The Vice President also announced a Presidential directive for the Office of Personnel Management to prepare a resource guide that will: (1) assist victims of domestic violence by providing up-to-date information about available resources and outline strategies to ensure safety; and (2) help those who know anyone who is being abused to prevent and respond to the situation. This guide will list private as well as public resources such as counseling, law enforcement, federal workplace leave policies, and substance abuse programs. In addition, he highlighted a new booklet, "Protecting Victims of Domestic Violence: A Law Enforcement Officer's Guide to Enforcing Orders of Protection Nationwide," that outlines the meaning of the Violence Against Women Act's requirement to give full faith and credit orders of protection for victims of domestic violence. This booklet was written by the International Association of Chiefs of Police with a grant from the Justice Department. It will be disseminated to law enforcement officers nationwide to teach them how to enforce protection orders. (End text) ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 5 09:40:44 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:40:44 +0800 Subject: Who Cares (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811050539.XAA10683@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 12:39 AM -0500 11/5/98, Jim Choate wrote: >If you're talking about the people who didn't vote, they're trying to keep >from going under. Probably working two jobs, keeping the kids in school and >out of trouble, saving for college, paying the house morgage off, etc. Who's >in office won't make a whit of difference to any of that. It's irrelevant. That's crap. While I won't deny that some of the people who don't vote are in the position you claim they are, their not voting has nothing to do with their economic position, it has to do with the facts that: 1) This is a mid-term election. Since it isn't a presidential election, fewer really care to research the issues (which are fewer). 2) We are currently in decent economic times, and as Terry Pratchet noted on Men At Arms, (paraphrasing here) Most people don't really care about democrazy, Equal Rights, or any of that, they just want tomorrow to be exactly like today. So, as long as things are Fair to good (or great), there won't be a lot of people intersted in voting, unless things look like they are going to make a radical change, which leads us to the 3 big reason: 3) As Jimmy notes, there usually isn't much of a difference between one canidate and the other (outside of the Natural Law types), and those canidates who _are_ different (Libertarians, Socialists &etc. ("reform" types don't count, they really are for making tomorrow just like yesterday & today, only they ADMIT it for the most part)) either don't get enough votes to challenge the status quo, or if there is an issue that will challenge the status quo, the number of voters tends to increase (to varying degrees). -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 10:02:19 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:02:19 +0800 Subject: Microsoft Statement Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: www.ispo.cec.be: majordom set sender to owner-e-commerc at www.ispo.cec.be using -f Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:16:56 -0500 From: Freddie Dawkins Subject: Microsoft Statement To: CEC E-commerce list MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-e-commerc at www.ispo.cec.be Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Freddie Dawkins All here - I thought you might like to see this. It was published at the ICX London conference on October 19. Rgds Freddie Dawkins ICX - Building Trust in E-commerce ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Statement of Microsoft on UK Department of Trade and Industry Proposals for Encryption on Digital Signatures October 1998 Microsoft welcomes this opportunity to respond to recent DTI proposals on encryption and digital signatures. As a leading developer of business software applications, on-line tools and operating systems, Microsoft strongly supports the growth of electronic commerce in Europe. 1. UK legislation should eliminate all key escrow and key recovery requirements. The UK should not make the use of encryption subject to mandatory key escrow. The DTI's Secure Electronic Commerce Statement of April 1998 contemplates authorising law enforcement to obtain access to private encryption keys on request. This could effectively require users or encryption service providers to "escrow" their private keys, which would depart from the Statement's rejection of mandatory key escrow and make the use of encryption more costly and burdensome. Many users would also view the obligation to store copies of their private keys as compromising the security of their on-line messages, thus deterring them from fully exploiting electronic commerce. Mandatory key escrow does not serve any legitimate law enforcement goals. Key escrow serves no legitimate law enforcement goals because criminals and terrorists are unlikely to store their private keys or provide them to police on request. Law enforcement's needs in this area could be fully met by requiring users to produce the plain text of any message to which police require access. 2. The proposed legislation should extend legal recognition to all digital signatures. Legal recognition should extend to all electronic signatures, not just those issued by licensed certification authorities (CAs). The secure Electronic Commerce Statement would limit legal recognition to certificates issued by licensed CAs. Because virtually all users will want to rely on the legal validity of their electronic signatures, this would effectively require the use of licensed CAs. Such a rule would impose unnecessary costs on electronic commerce and would place UK law in conflict with the proposed EU Electronic Signatures Directive, which extends legal recognition to both licensed and unlicensed electronic signatures. UK law should extend legal recognition to closed-system and limited-use certificates and affirm parties' freedom of contract. Electronic signatures are used in a variety of closed systems and for a broad range of specific uses, such as on-line banking and credit card systems. Because closed-system and limited-use certificates will play a crucial role in the development of on-line applications, the law should expressly extend legal recognition to such certificates. UK legislation should also treat electronic and paper transactions the same in terms of freedom of contract, so that private parties have the same flexibility to structure their electronic transactions as they do for traditional forms of commerce. The proposed legislation should not require licensed CAs to escrow encryption keys. Many users of electronic signatures will refuse to allow their private encryption keys to be escrowed, and will therefore refuse to use licensed CAs if they must also hand over their private encryption keys. Such a result would undermine the use of electronic signatures and would threaten the development of electronic commerce in the UK. Thus, UK law should allow licensed CAs to provide encryption services without maintaining a key escrow or key recovery system. 3. DTI should abandon plans to extend existing export controls to "intangible" transfers. Applying existing export controls to intangible transfers of encryption is unworkable and impractical. In its recent white paper on Strategic Export Controls (July 1998), DTI announced plans to extend existing export controls to intangible transfers. However, strong encryption is widely available on the Internet from servers located outside the UK. Thus, the proposed restrictions would not prevent criminals from using strong encryption, but would impose added costs and burdens on lawful manufacturers and distributors of encryption products. The proposed export controls will harm UK firms. UK businesses already face a competitive disadvantage to foreign competitors due to restrictions on exporting encryption in tangible form. To extend this to intangible transfers will make it even more difficult for UK firms to compete globally. The UK should loosen, rather than tighten, existing export controls on encryption. Export restrictions on encryption make it much more expensive for UK firms to compete globally, without having any real impact on crime. Rather than act unilaterally on this issue, the UK should adhere to the European-wide standards set forth in the EU Regulation on Dual-Use Goods. /ends # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # To leave the list, send email to Majordomo at www.ispo.cec.be saying unsubscribe E-commerc your at email.address as the first line of your message (*not* as the subject) # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Nov 5 10:03:17 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:03:17 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) Message-ID: <3641E026.918@lsil.com> Jim, *** True, the point I'm trying to make to you folks is that it *ISN'T* the absolute level of the signal that you are necessarily concerned with but rather the dynamic range in that signal. Simply knowing there's a 3mV signal out there won't do you a damn bit of good unless you have enough signal range to decode the contents. In actuality you could be emitting GW's of signal and if there was only say 1uV of signal range you'd never get anything off it. *** The distinction you are trying to express is that not all signals have equal information content and that it is the levels of the high-content ones that matter. Fine, but shielding is indiscriminate so shield away. And run your Tesla coil and some Ramones music to increase the ambient noise while you're doing sensitive computing. BTW - Aren't most receivers sensitive to RF field strengths in the 1 uV/m range? With cryogenically cooled front ends the nV/m range is probably usable. Look for MIB carrying Dewars in your neighborhood! How cold do Peltier junctions get? Probably good enough for a sidewinder or a low-noise rcvr. Mike Gabba-gabba hey! 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From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 10:16:57 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:16:57 +0800 Subject: Digicash in serious trouble Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: stalder at fis.fis.utoronto.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:03:10 -0500 To: micropay at ai.mit.edu From: Felix Stalder Subject: Digicash in serious trouble Sender: owner-micropay at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: micropay at ai.mit.edu [bad news] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28360,00.html By Tim Clark Staff Writer, CNET News.com November 4, 1998, 6:05 p.m. PT Electronic-cash pioneer DigiCash said today it's filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after shrinking its payroll to about six people from nearly 50 in February. The company, which has been running off a bridge loan from its venture capital investors since June, is seeking new investors from established financial institutions or a buyer for its software technology. The company's operations in the Netherlands, where it was founded, were liquidated in September. "To really launch and brand something like this in the Internet space is likely to take a fair amount more capital," said Scott Loftesness, DigiCash's interim CEO since August. "It's more appropriate for strategic investors, corporate players or banks themselves as a consortium model." Electronic-cash schemes have found difficult sledding recently. First Virtual Holdings, which had a form of e-cash, exited the business in July. CyberCash's CyberCoin offering hasn't really caught on. Digital Equipment, now part of Compaq Computer is testing its Millicent electronic cash, and IBM is in early trials for a product called Minipay. Under bankruptcy laws, DigiCash's Chapter 11 filing allows the company to continue operations, while keeping its creditors at bay as the company reorganizes. Most of DigiCash's $4 million in debt is owed to its initial venture capital financiers who extended the bridge loan, August Capital, Applied Technology, and Dutch investment firm Gilde Investment. DigiCash's eCash allows consumers to make anonymous payments of any amount--and anonymity differentiates eCash against other e-cash schemes. DigiCash's intellectual property assets include patents, protocols, and software systems that also could be used for applications, like online electronic voting or private scrip issued by a particular retailer. DigiCash suffered a setback in September when the only U.S. bank offering its scheme, Mark Twain Bank, dropped the offering. But a number of major banks in Europe and Australia offer or are testing DigiCash's electronic cash. Also in September, DigiCash closed its Dutch operations and liquidated its assets there. Loftesness said DigiCash has a list of 35-40 potential partners, and he has been talking to players like IBM for months. He expects to resolve DigiCash's status in the next five months. "Everybody feels anonymous e-cash is inevitable, but the existing situation was not going to get there from here," said Loftesness, who is frustrated by potential partners telling him, "This is absolutely strategic, but unfortunately it's not urgent." The company was founded by David Chaum and was well-known in the Internet's earliest days. MIT Media Labs' Nicholas Negroponte is a director of DigiCash. --- # distributed via nettime-l : no commercial use without permission # is a closed moderated mailinglist for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo at desk.nl and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # URL: http://www.desk.nl/~nettime/ contact: nettime-owner at desk.nl -----|||||---||||----|||||--------||||---- Les faits sont faits. http://www.fis.utoronto.ca/~stalder --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 5 10:37:36 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:37:36 +0800 Subject: IP: Text: Gore Announces New SS# Effort for Victims ofDomestic Violence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:40 AM -0500 11/5/98, Robert Hettinga wrote: >"Today, our message to the victims of these hateful crimes is this: we >will offer you the protection you need to regain your safety and >rebuild your life. You have suffered enough without having to fight >for the protections you need to start a new life for yourself and your >children," Gore said, according to a press release from his office. Give them a Military Surplus .45 and teach them to shoot straight. Much cheaper in the long run as it will either eliminate the abuse up front, or both the abuse and the abuser. >The vice president also mentioned a new booklet, "Protecting Victims >of Domestic Violence: A Law Enforcement Officer's Guide to Enforcing >Orders of Protection Nationwide," that outlines the meaning of the >Violence Against Women Act's requirement to give full faith and credit >orders of protection for victims of domestic violence. Isn't there some law that prohibits discrimination because of gender? >For the first time, victims of domestic violence will be able to get a >new Social Security number simply by providing written affirmation of >their domestic abuse from a third party, such as a local shelter, >treating physician, or law enforcement official. This shouldn't be too tough. >The Social Security Administration's (SSA) employees in field offices >nationwide will work closely with local domestic violence shelters, >the police, the courts, treating physicians, medical facilities, and >psychologists to help victims of domestic violence get the >documentation necessary to secure a new Social Security number. Who wants to bet that soon they will talk about reducing or denying benefits for "abusers". -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 5 10:43:03 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:43:03 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811050611.AAA10989@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 1:11 AM -0500 11/5/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: >> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:45:29 -0800 >> From: Tim May >> Subject: Re: TEMPEST laptops > >> Radio waves scatter...they don't just travel in pure line of sight. And >> even if they travelled only in line of sight, the reflections from inside >> the box and then into the room and then off surfaces.... > >It depends on the frequency. Last time I checked a laser or a maser (both >are radio waves strictly speaking) travel LOS. The scattering comes from >beam divergence and incidental refractions and reflections from the >molecules in the air and supported detritus. And both Lasers and Masers scatter under certain conditions. If you can see the laser, it is scattering a bit of [energy light photons] That is what Mr. May is talking about. I was under the (apparently false) impression that things like animal bodies, and ordinary building materials (like wood, Lathe & plaster/drywall) wouldn't stop or significantly bounce the beams back the way you didn't want them to go. I was thinking more of controling the direction of the RF, rather than trying to completely supress it. It doesn't appear that will work. >> Microwave ovens work by having the waves bounce around inside a box. Any >> significant hole or crack (up to roughly half the wavelength) would let the >> waves out. > >Depends on the size of the hole and location. In most microwave ovens there >are definite dead-spots (corners and the exact center of the area are >notorius). We're not cooking Hotdogs here, and we aren't using (for the most part) microwaves. Yes, you can heat a hotdog on a PII, but that is more from heat radiation than RF. Microwave ovens also leak RF. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 5 12:00:25 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:00:25 +0800 Subject: new 448 bit key by Indian firm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981104234056.008b6880@idiom.com> At 03:43 AM 11/3/98 +0530, Narayan Raghu wrote: > Indian firm unveils 448-bit encryption 448 bits sounds a lot like MD5-based encryption - perhaps Luby-Rackoff or MDC? Or a homegrown system, doing successive MD5s or something? MD5 is no longer the safest hash these days.... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 5 12:02:11 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:02:11 +0800 Subject: NYC Smartcards Die In-Reply-To: <199811041618.LAA31005@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981104234624.008b6880@idiom.com> At 11:09 AM 11/4/98 -0500, John Young wrote: >Chase, Visa and Mastercard have closed down their >smartcard trial on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, >the NYT reports today. >It also says Mondex has closed its Swindon trial. I don't know about Swindon's Mondex trial, but Mondex in San Francisco was dumbly too annoying to use. Wells Fargo was promoting it, Starbucks accepted it, and both were around the corner from my office. The _catch_ was that you couldn't just walk into a bank, plunk down some dead presidents, and get a Mondex card. Instead, you could walk into the bank, get a brochure, use a phone there to call an 800 number, and they'll mail it to you or something awkward like that. It may be a mostly-bearer system instead of book entry, but they're handling it like book-entry. Lose, lose. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Nov 5 12:10:47 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:10:47 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. Message-ID: <3641FFB1.75BB@lsil.com> Jim, you said... ***** If you do decide to stake your laptop as refered above there are a few things to know.... - Make sure the stake is in suitable ground without lots of quartz and other similar peizo-electric materials. - The stake should extend at least 3ft. into the ground. - When the stake is driven in, the ground should be thoroughly wetted which usualy means quite a bit of water (30 gals or so should do it), if possible wet it over a 24 hour period prior to staking. - Make sure the stake and the cable leading to the laptop are copper (or silver if you're rich) - You don't want to be close to phone, power, and other sorts of underground utilities. **** Please explain to me why it matters that the box be grounded! Radiated energy from chips and traces is independent of your mongo ground strap to the mother ship. All the strap does is alter the DC potential. Shield your box well but design out the leg irons and the geological requirements. Mike From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 12:12:20 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:12:20 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) Message-ID: <199811051947.NAA13767@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:28:06 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka > Subject: Re: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) > The distinction you are trying to express is that not all signals have > equal information content and that it is the levels of the high-content > ones that matter. Nope. What I am saying is the absolute magnitude of the carrier wave is irrelevant, it's the modulation that matters and that modulation if small and it's riding on a big carrier is hard to get at because you swamp your front-ends because of dynamic range. > Fine, but shielding is indiscriminate so shield away. Shielding will attenuate all parts of the signal so it is a Good Thing (TM). > And run your Tesla coil and some Ramones music to increase the ambient > noise while you're doing sensitive computing. Gabba gabba hey hey...thought I don't run my Tesla Coil when my computers are on, they object to the 4ft sparks. > Look for MIB carrying Dewars in your neighborhood! > How cold do Peltier junctions get? > Probably good enough for a sidewinder or a low-noise rcvr. Peltier devices are for thermal transport by binding the thermal photons and transporting them to a different environ where they may be emitted. Hence the original environ is cooled. You're talking about Josephson Junctions I suspect and they're useless for signal detection, they're a switch. SQUIDS are what are used for truly small level signals. The KKK took my baby away.... ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Thu Nov 5 12:45:47 1998 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:45:47 +0800 Subject: TriSnakeoil questions Message-ID: <91029670728883@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> I wrote: >I'm currently sitting in a booth at a Tandem user show directly opposite the >Atalla one. If there's anything in particular which someone wants to ask >them, let me know and I'll see how knowledgeable their salesdroids are. I had a talk to them, it turns out that of the two different Atalla's, Atalla the company and John Atalla the person, the snake oil is being pushed by Atalla the person rather than Atalla the company. The Atalla people knew as little about it as everyone else, and although they were careful with their replies I got the impression that they were about as impressed with TriStrata as others on this list are. OTOH perhaps they were just depressed that I asked them about TriStrata instead of their RSA/3DES card :-). [I have half a dozen brochures for this one, in every single brochure it's called something different (SET accelerator, SSL accelerator, e-commerce accelerator, accelerator) but once you get past the first few application-specific paragraphs the rest is identical. Covers all the bases I guess. Their white paper on why hardware crypto is better than software crypto is a hoot too - "Hardware is cheaper" (obviously some new definition of the word with which I wasn't previously familiar), "software crypto can't be shared" (as opposed to hardware, which can be shared with a simple copy command), etc. Their products look pretty good, but everyone I talked to complained about the price and was ready to jump on software alternatives] Peter. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 12:50:37 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:50:37 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. (fwd) Message-ID: <199811052002.OAA13832@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:42:41 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka > Subject: Re: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. > Please explain to me why it matters that the box be grounded! Electricity runs from a high-potential point to ground. If it isn't grounded it radiates away into space where it can be detected. If the Faraday Cage isn't grounded it simply acts as a parasitic oscillator and re-emits the signal from inside, though at a lower amplitude. Remember, charge rests on the *OUTSIDE* of a object so that any charge picked up internaly gets passed to the outside surface. Which raises another point. Since sharp corners radiate better because they hold larger charges one should probably avoid sharp angles or corners. Though you might be able to use that to advantage by having a caged needle that radiates the majority away into the grounded cage. Probably the ideal 'laptop' would be a metal ball with a grounding wire and a single large mil-spec connector that drives a HMD. Something like the Rock City by Archistrat but round instead of cubical. > Radiated energy from chips and traces is independent of your mongo > ground strap to the mother ship. Not if the ground plane on the pcb is built right. The amount of free-space radiation can be minimized because the capacitive coupling between the emitting source and the local ground is less than the capacitive coupling to Earth through the atmosphere. Since the signal path impedence to the local ground plain is lower it will carry, proportionaly, the majority of the signal. > All the strap does is alter the DC > potential. Shield your box well but design out the leg irons and the > geological requirements. Actualy it is much more complex than that, it effects the AC signal path impedence as well - which is exactly what one wants. As I said above, don't ground the box and it simply acts as a secondary emitter. This is analogous to those parasitic oscillators they put in books and such that ring an alarm if you walk between the poles at the store. I'm at work right now so I can't get too specific but there is a book that I have at home that is called 'Digital Black Magic' (I believe). It covers a lot of these sorts of issues. When I'm home later I'll post a pointer to the correct title, author, and ISBN. The 1st rule of electrons: They always take the shortest path to ground. Corollary: If they can't get to ground they radiate their excess energy away as photons. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 5 13:42:47 1998 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:42:47 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. In-Reply-To: <199811051447.IAA12209@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981105130909.007f1730@m7.sprynet.com> At 08:47 AM 11/5/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Here's a simple way to test the bounce-pattern of your micro-wave oven: Simpler: stick a neon-bulb with the leads twisted off into the oven. Watch the glow vary. Put a cup of water in there since you're not supposed to run empty. You of course know about CDs as uwave detectors :-) > - Make sure the stake is in suitable ground without lots of quartz > and other similar peizo-electric materials. Not piezo (though quartz is), but non conductive. You have to tap the groundwater table. Sand, granite don't conduct. From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu Thu Nov 5 13:48:25 1998 From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:48:25 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. In-Reply-To: <3641FFB1.75BB@lsil.com> Message-ID: > >Please explain to me why it matters that the box be grounded! > >Radiated energy from chips and traces is independent of your mongo >ground strap to the mother ship. All the strap does is alter the DC >potential. Shield your box well but design out the leg irons and the >geological requirements. > > Please explain how you can sheild something without grounding it. Doesn't the energy need some place to go? Matt From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 5 13:49:49 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:49:49 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops Message-ID: <199811052109.WAA21423@replay.com> At 09:45 PM 11/4/98 -0800, Tim May wrote: >>The other question is how hard, given a _specific_ machine would it be to >>create a "RF" jammer? Sort of an active defense versus the passive defense >>of a Tempest sheild. build a device that measures the RF coming off a Well dang Tim, if you're gonna work inside a Faraday cage you may as well run a Tesla coil outside it... --Lace Aliens Slide on my Rugs From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 13:52:46 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:52:46 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) Message-ID: <199811052117.PAA14255@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:56:20 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) > >It depends on the frequency. Last time I checked a laser or a maser (both > >are radio waves strictly speaking) travel LOS. The scattering comes from > >beam divergence and incidental refractions and reflections from the > >molecules in the air and supported detritus. > > And both Lasers and Masers scatter under certain conditions. If you > can see the laser, it is scattering a bit of [energy light photons] All EM radiation scatters *IF* the wavelength of the signal is comparable to the wavelength of the particulate. If the particulate is less than about 1/3 wavelength it won't significantly scatter. The reason that dust in the air scatters lasers (and masers don't have this problem because the wavelength is too long) is that the particles are significantly larger than the wavelenght of the signal. It is directly analogous to moon-shine. In astronomy this is related to something called the Poynting Effect. This is also the reason that IR radiation goes through smoke and fog while visible light won't. Raleigh Scattering is the reason that the fog appears white. In photography and radar mapping this is what limits the resolution of the bounced signal as well. You can build an experiment to demonstrate this with peg-board, pegs, and some rope. Lay the peg-board on a table. Place a peg on one edge and connect the rope. then along the line of the rope place other pegs at equal but different distances and try to get a transverse plane wave to travel down the rope. Note the relative wavelenght of the wave in the rope to the spacing of the pegs. It takes practice to get it to work correctly so don't give up to easy. > I was under the (apparently false) impression that things like > animal bodies, and ordinary building materials (like wood, Lathe & > plaster/drywall) wouldn't stop or significantly bounce the beams back the > way you didn't want them to go. Depends on the material, angle of incidence, water content, frequency of the signal, transmissivity of the material at that frequency, etc. In the 10cm radar (used by tanks and ground troops to find each other) even leaves will bounce a signal. > I was thinking more of controling the direction of the RF, rather > than trying to completely supress it. Exaclty. The issue then is what do we do with the signal once we've got it directed where we want it. For EM signals we want to get them to a ground plane so they go away and don't exist anymore. If it doesn't exist anymore you can't very well tap it. > We're not cooking Hotdogs here, and we aren't using (for the most > part) microwaves. Yes, you can heat a hotdog on a PII, but that is more > from heat radiation than RF. > > Microwave ovens also leak RF. True enough, but the physics are applicable. Don't confuse cause with effect. As to microwave ovens leaking, yes but they leak orders of magnitude less which makes them orders of magnitude harder to detect. That is the point to TEMPEST after all, take advantage of the 1/r^2 law so the mallet has to be sitting right in your lap to get a good field strength. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 14:00:48 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:00:48 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. (fwd) Message-ID: <199811052126.PAA14347@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:09:09 -0800 > From: David Honig > Subject: Re: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. > At 08:47 AM 11/5/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Here's a simple way to test the bounce-pattern of your micro-wave oven: > > Simpler: stick a neon-bulb with the leads twisted off into the oven. > Watch the glow vary. Put a cup of water in there since you're not supposed > to run empty. Yes, but they don't give you as easily measured level of the incident radiation. with a neon bulb or a flourescent tube (what I prefer) you have a hard time mapping radiation level to brightness with commenly available photometers. Photo quality stuff isn't nearly accurate enough. > > - Make sure the stake is in suitable ground without lots of quartz > > and other similar peizo-electric materials. > > Not piezo (though quartz is), but non conductive. You have to > tap the groundwater table. Sand, granite don't conduct. Sand has lots of piezo. You don't want piezo because the ground pressure on the stake will cause excessive noise. As to non-conductive, you *WANT* it to be conductive otherwise the signals will form ground waves and propogate horizontaly. You can see this with radar signals from aircraft that bounce off the tarmac (I used to live next to the Austin airport and had access to a spectrum analyzer). If the ground plane isn't conductive it isn't a ground plane. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 5 14:06:15 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:06:15 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811052119.WAA22172@replay.com> :: Subject: more on Dore's discovery of intelligence (satellite 415) http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/auscnfrm.jpg http://www.lunaranomalies.com/update2.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_203000/203133.stm From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 5 14:19:55 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:19:55 +0800 Subject: US Cyberthreat Policy In-Reply-To: <199811051449.JAA12327@camel8.mindspring.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Kenneth A. Minihan and George J. Tenet Elected to America Online, Inc. Board of Directors New Board Members Hail From NSA and CIA DULLES, VA /DenounceNewswire/ -- 5 November 1998 -- America Online, Inc. announced today Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan, Director of the National Security Agency and Chief of the Central Security Service, and George J. Tenet, Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, have been elected to its Board of Directors. AOL now boasts a board that includes the former head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Colin Powell; a former Nixon aide General Alexander Haig; and two distingished leaders of the U.S. intelligence community. "I am proud today to announce the election of Lieutenant General Kenneth Minihan and George Tenet to America Online's Board of Directors. Both of them possess records of proven leadership and commitment to public service that will be invaluable to our company as we work to build our business and the interactive medium into the next millennium," said Steve Case, Chairman and CEO of America Online, Inc. Mr. Case added: "Lieutenant General Minihan's record of service to our country, both in the military and in his current work with the NSA, is without equal in our times. His commitment to America's security and our country's future fits squarely with AOL's determination to build an online medium that dominates people's lives -- helping us to learn, to organize their lives, and even to engage more fully in the political process." Mr. Case continued: "George Tenet is a visionary leader in both the world of intelligence-gathering and the mass marketplace. He has played key roles in landmark achievements for our society. His expertise in the world of cloak and dagger will serve AOL in meeting the critical challenges facing the Company and in fulfilling our commitment to build a medium that threatens society as no other before." Mr. Case wasn't done yet, adding further: "We look forward to working with the NSA and the CIA as we migrate the AOL network over to complete ECHELON compatibility with the next six months." ECHELON is the government's secret worldwide network that monitors all voice, data, fax, video, satellite, and digital communications in every country, recording, indexing, and collating every utterance made between every man, woman, child, business, or other organization, as well as between any two computer systems anywhere. "The perception that the Internet can change and improve peoples' lives and to reconnect them to their community is powerful and extraordinary," said Lt. General Minihan. "I'm honored to serve on the Board of a company that has been leading the way in creating such a perception in the public's mind, and leading the way to shaping a medium that that will open new doors of opportunity for our national security state." "In the next few years, public policy discussions in Washington and around the world will have as much to do with the development and ultimate impact of the Internet as any technological advance," said Mr. Tenet. "I look forward to serving a Company that is at the center of these policy discussions and is playing a large role in determining the success -- or failure -- of people around the world." source: http://www.denounce.com/nsaol.html Regards, - -- Ken Williams Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/index.shtml E.H.A.P. Corporation http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org info at ehap.org NCSU Comp Sci Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at adm.csc.ncsu.edu PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ ________________________________________________________ Get Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNkIac5Dw1ZsNz1IXAQHwIAf/ZWpQQvvwJiA2ANEuvUl9+WBC8HbrX2Hc I4a3ZH4KKRJA/lUndaCOxvvkMe6R2vwdI92dTnI6GiKx9QAOfkwPeb4Cw+xAFsgJ DRv0rrw3g8LTK+U+dM6xQsW1Sl1w1CVzSPc8Urh87d587Sd6/IDdDDIMHrsXlxPp xxg+fNbbQE2bvUpd0+Nxo2gC8JpQGTq6YighXTufxLiFEr1xDU7FO7T6V22p2oMB u32p/SLh16AG2aQRVI8z5hIsybIXVfCFc5dWTdaV43vuJE6yyteLDDtttPwTBeJS 6SCu5j6d5PnkdvbDN7+1zy7wMPkyktMyv4ewkGF5QEj2UpPg2bCKHw== =yO91 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 14:31:19 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:31:19 +0800 Subject: Holloween II: Microsoft Plugs Linux Message-ID: http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html is a more extensive, (positively glowing) freshly smuggled (planted?) internal analysis of Linux by Microsoft. 103k, but definitely worth reading. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Nov 5 14:44:32 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:44:32 +0800 Subject: Now where am I gonna get a good horseburger? Message-ID: <36422225.52F2@lsil.com> In CA it is now a felony to eat a horse. I don't remember asking to be transported to Walt Disney World...wait 'til someone other than Gary Larson anthropomorphises the chicken, cow and pig! On a lighter, more technical note - Avoiding carefully, for the moment, Harvey Rook's statement that weaknesses in cipher systems often lie in key generation and management and not in the crypto algorithms, I'll ask a few -naive- questions: If we construct a CSPRNG with a ?sufficiently? large state and then use the output of that PRNG to generate a new key for each block encrypted by a standard block cipher have we gained anything? Large files vs. small? When used with triple encryption like 3DES? The ROI for finding a single key is certainly much lower if the PRNG is "good". I've never seen a PR keystream for a conventional block cipher discussed so I thought I'd lob it out there. Mike From mgering at ecosystems.net Thu Nov 5 14:45:04 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:45:04 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B24B@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> > Robert Hettinga wrote: > > A government is just another economic actor. A very large > > economic actor with lots of guns and a monopoly on force, > > but an economic actor nonetheless. > > No they are not, > > Yes, they are. Can you say 'taxes'? Imposed by a gun. > Can you say 'interstate commerce'? What about it? > Can you say 'mint money'? Can you say 'federal reserve'? Can you say government fiat? > Can you say 'FDIC'? Can you say banking regulation at the point of a gun? > I thought so. Yep. > > History shows this. > > Really? What history? The Soviet Union is a prime recent example. British Mercantilism. Governments are ultimately bound to economics in the sense of human behavior and productivity -- the more they deny the nature of microeconomic actors, the quicker they self-destruct. History shows that every dynasty well eventually self-destruct, to think ours won't is foolish. My point is we don't have competitive governments per se, you have a power void that is filled by new government that can be just as hostile to those microeconomic actors. All our government failures have yet to produce a sustainable government. > False distinction. Politics is about control and power The fundamental laws of economics are supply and demand. As soon as you through force into the equation, it is no longer economic, it is political. > in human society that breaks down to force and money. The essence of money has no political roots. The essence of money is human productivity and trade. Money is tied to politics currently because it is regulated by force of government and the money *supply* is created by government fiat. > There you go again, confusing privacy with economics... The discussion *was* *privacy*, or did you completely miss the initial discussion? Privacy (as opposed to secrecy) is about discretionary disclosure of information. To invade privacy is to remove or prevent that discretion. There is an economic cost of doing so, and an economic benefit. Corporations are bound by those economics, whereas government can mandate transparency by whim and gun. > > use coercive force today preventing privacy, but government is > > their instrument of force. > > True, but that isn't a function of regulation per se only the > particular type of regulation that we have implimented. It is the *nature* of regulation. The end element of any regulation is a gun. Government is a natural instrument of collective legalized force by any group that can influence it, and to think it can't and won't be influenced denies human nature in regards to power. Every government is despotic by nature, force corrupts. > > They have a *legal* monopoly on force (within a state). > > No, they don't. It is perfectly legal for an individual to > own a weapon. The legal monopoly on the *initiation* of force. And in fact you have very little freedom (eternally diminishing) to obtain potential force (arms) and use it in a *reactionary* manner. You have absolutely *no* freedom to use it reactionary against government (which is in the face of the 4th). > There is also a clear distinction between the local police, > your state police, federal agents, military, etc. It is an irrelevant distinction in this case, it is all government. They do not use force against each other as any sort of competitive balance. > No it doesn't. It points to the fact that individuals want to > participate in some activity that some other party doesn't > want to occur. General democratic consensus is highly controlled by media and government propaganda (if they are not one in the same). What is the underlying motivation? Is hemp illegal because people don't want people to smoke weed, or because of the cotton lobby? Is the war on drugs so unbreakable because people don't want people taking drugs, or because the government funds black operations with its sales, uses it to confiscate private property, and as a sounding post for increased powers? Do people not want free banking, or does the government wish to protects its fiat currency and artificial stability flying in the face of economic reality? > It does not imply that the regulating party wants the potential > income from those activities. Money or power, more often than most people think. > Further more, even in a free-market there will exist > black markets. Provided you don't corrupt the meaning of free-market to include any possible black market, then yes, there will *always* be a black market. It can be made rather insignificant however. > The aspect of a free-market is that there is no consequence from > such actions (unless you want to admit to allowing corporations to have > their own hit squads). And again you pervert the meaning of free market. I'm tired arguing that subject with you, go read a book. Matt From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 14:46:59 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:46:59 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811052212.QAA14923@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:43:40 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Anarchy is usually defined as the absense of government. What > exactly makes up a "government", what are it's defining characteristics? Well let's see.... control over some geographic area arbitration of conflict tithe from the inhabitants of that area regulation of economic systems by controlling the medium of trade (ie money) > Simply a device for reallocating wealth?--Insufficient, there are > lots of mechanisms for that. No, government control economies that's not the same thing as having re-allocation of wealth as a goal. That's more a responsbility of a business than a government. Governments, at least in principle, are concerned with stable economies and the continued existance of same. Who exactly, if anyone, is holder of that wealth is in principle irrelevant to the definition of political systems as a general expression of human psychology. Though it is clear the devil is in the details. > A body that lays down standards and rules of conduct?--Sounds like > a church or industry consortium to me. It sounds like an expression of the social aspects of human psychology. Whether it's a church, industry consortium, local LEA, local fire dept., etc. > A heirarchical (sp?) structure that uses fear, propaganda and force > to reallocate wealth, enforce standards and rules of conduct, and other > things at whim (for varying values of "whim", from the "whim" of a > dictator, to the "whim" of the "body politic"). Who cares whether it's heirarchical or flat (as in an anarchy or free-market). The point is that abuse takes place. It is no more ethical to bash somebodies brains in under an anarchy than it is in a democracy or a communicsm. > Now, THAT is a government. Yes, some of what it enforces is > probably a good idea (i.e. everyone driving on the same side of the road, > &etc) some if it is kinda silly (don't smoke dope, or you're going to jail > (Here, have a beer)), and some of it is downright stupid and shortsighted > (encryption policy, not drinking beer out of a bucket on the sidewalk). Sounds like an expression of the range of human beliefs. Whether something is right, wrong, stupid, etc. is a function of individual statements of importance and ranking of consequences. > Anarchy is not having to be effected by that, being "free" to > follow what one thinks is right. Which unfortunately includes the neighbor being able to take your property by force since he believes it's right. > How one gets to that state is not really > relevent. Tell that to the mother of the kid who got killed last night because he had something somebody else wanted. Also explain to here how under an anarchy there isn't any recourse for her other than to try to find that person herself and kill them.... Yep, that is a very efficient and ethical system you wanna build. My statement above simply lays out the position having Privacy > (for large enough values of privacy to be meaningful) and Freedom (for > large enough values of Freedom to be meaningful) one is effectively in an > anarchistic state. That is what "close enough to be meaningful" meant. Freedom is the right to do what you want *WITHOUT* impinging or otherwise limiting others right to express their desires and wants. Anarchy clearly won't do that. > Privacy is (at least it's my understanding) the ability to hide or > mask information in such a way that only people you wish to have access > to it do. If privacy exists you don't have to hide things because nobodies looking in the first place. You only need to hide things if you're reasonably certain somebody else wants it. > There are varying degrees of Privacy, from "Well, at least they Yep, like there are varying degrees of pregnancy. Either somebody is looking or they aren't. > don't analyize what's in my feeces, even if they do watch me take it" to > being able to completely hide any information at all from anyone. No, that is varying degrees of *respect* for privacy. Not the same animal at all. > Freedom is the ability to make choices, and exercise those choices. Without impinging on others freedom. It's worth noting that anarchist don't add that last one in there because it blows their whole little house of cards completely away. > Just like privacy, there are varying degrees of freedom, from the > convict who can chose wheter he/she wants to eat that slop or go hungry, to > the president of the US who can (apparently) bomb people with impunity, lie > under oath & etc. No, there are varying degrees of respect for freedom. > When the amount of freedom and privacy is high enough, it is > indistinguishable from anarchy. Sure it is, because under anarchy there is no protection that one persons expression won't interfere with anothers expression without resorting to violence. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 14:55:19 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:55:19 +0800 Subject: FYI: Digicash bankruptcy Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: "Nahum.array" Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:32:51 -0500 To: ibc-forum at ARRAYdev.com From: Nahum Goldmann Subject: FYI: Digicash bankruptcy Mime-Version: 1.0 I believe this kind of information is invaluable. Personally, I do not subscribe to Agre's doom and gloom. For years I'm saying that there is a very little "i" and a very large "C" in iCommerce. Chaum might be many bright things but an entrepreneur he definitely ain't. But than it's quite difficult in this new paradigm for all of us. Of course, Bob Hettinga could have saved quite a lot of energy and avoid much disappointment if he did pay for that my trip to Antigua. I always believe that unpaid advice is not listened to, and here is a good prove of this concept. Have fun. I'm sure it will come. Eventually. Nahum Goldmann ARRAY Development http://www.ARRAYdev.com ======================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:36:52 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Agre To: "Red Rock Eater News Service" Subject: [RRE]Digicash bankruptcy Sender: List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: [With the bankruptcy of Digicash, it is time to assemble the definitive list of underperforming Internet technologies. The received wisdom is that the Internet lies at the vortex of a historically unprecedented era of intensive and disruptive technological change. A sober reading of the evidence, however, supports something much closer to the opposite thesis, viz, the Internet is a modest and useful new tool that, despite itself, has given rise to an astonishingly wasteful mania whereby perfectly good capital is plowed into one ill-conceived technology after another. Consider: interactive television, VRML, Active X, network computers, "push" technology, agents, "social" interfaces, resource visualization, cryptographic payment mechanisms (aka "electronic commerce"), and others that I hope you'll remind me about. Each of these has been the object of a frenzy that has compelled all manner of smart people, and a whole lot of dumb ones such as myself, to say things like, "boy oh boy, the world is going to be completely different a year from now". This has been going on continuously since the PR hype that accompanied the run-up to the (failed) Communications Act of 1994 and then the (passed but then catastrophically failed) Communications Act of 1996. It has been fanned by Wired magazine, whose capitulation to Conde Nast has ended an era that should never have begun, and now it is marked by the bankruptcy of David Chaum's Digicash. All right-thinking people were in favor of Digicash, whose technologies were as intellectually elegant as they were socially responsible. The problem is that the Digicash people were living in the world of Alice and Bob -- a place where a mathematical proof can change the world in perfect defiance of the dynamics (if you can call them that) of large, highly integrated institutions. Like many Internet-related startups, Digicash existed only to the precise extent that the press was writing about it, and now it doesn't exist at all. So right now would be an excellent time for us to renounce the false idea that we are living in a time of unprecedented technical change. Yes, the Web has been going through a period of exponential growth. But no, that growth is not at all unprecedented, and in fact it is running behind the penetration rates that earlier technologies such as the radio and gas cooking achieved once they started being adopted on a mass scale. (See, for example, Ronald C. Tobey's scholarly and absorbing "Technology As Freedom: The New Deal and the Electrical Modernization of the American Home", Univ. of California Press, 1996.) Nor has the underlying Internet changed at all quickly. The Internet protocols that we use today are unchanged in their essentials from about 1982. In fact, once the real history of this era is written, I think that 1982 will shape up as the true annus mirabilis, and 1994 will simply be seen as the era when the innovations of ten to fifteen years earlier finally caught public attention and reached the price point that was needed to achieve the network externalities required for its large- scale adoption. If we get out the rake and drag away all of the detritus of the underperforming technologies that I listed above, and compare our times on an apples-for-apples basis with other periods of technological innovation -- including the Depression era, for heaven's sake -- then I think we will have a much healthier perspective going forward. As it is, people the world over have been propagandized into a state of panic, one that encourages them to abandon all of their experience and common sense and buy lots of computer equipment so that they will not be scorned by their children and left behind by the apocalypse that is supposedly going to arrive any day now. No such apocalypse is going to occur, and all of the TV preachers who have been announcing this apocalypse should apologize and give the people their money back. Yes, the world is going to change. Yes, information technology will participate, and is already participating, in a significant overhaul of the workings of most major social institutions. But no, those changes are not going to happen overnight. The sad line-up of underperforming technologies should be understood not as serious attempts at innovation but as a kind of ritual, an expensive and counterproductive substitute for the chants and dances that healthy societies perform when they are placed under stress. Maybe once we get some healthy rituals for contending with technological change ourselves, we will be able to snap out of our trance, cast off the ridiculous hopes and fears of an artificially induced millennium, and take up the serious work of discussing, organizing, and contesting the major choices about our institutions that lie ahead.] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, see http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/rre.html or send a message to requests at lists.gseis.ucla.edu with Subject: info rre =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:02:08 -0500 From: Robert Hettinga To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu, e$@vmeng.com, cryptography at c2.net, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: DigiCash Inc. to File Reorganization, Seeks Partners to Drive eCash Forward -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Okay. Contrary to my own previous -- and painfully recent -- opinions on the matter, Digicash, Inc., is, more or less, in play again, or it will be if there is enough money chasing it. Whatever "enough" means. Putting on my Gordon Gekko hat, here, I'm interested in finding out a few things. Yes, I have seen the greater fool theory of the blind signature patent operate more than a few times, but I am, nonetheless, driven to think about this, and I might as well be public in my musing, at least for the time being. For expenses of any new company, it should be pretty clear by now what I would do with the DigiCash technology portfolio. I would put a real good intellectual property lawyer on the payroll, keep the cryptographers who would still consent to stick around, keep or improve whatever software test people they have left, and do nothing but sell licenses and implementation certifications, using the the underwiting model at as a roadmap. For this imaginary company's revenue, aside from direct fees for validating a developer's, and possibly an underwriter's, implementation of the protocol, the trustee would be the only point of patent royalty collection and payment from the underwriters and developers to the new patent holder. As far as the current installed base is concerned, I would probably spin off a company to support those customers, and give it a non-exclusive license as if it were any other developer. This assumes, of course, that DigiCash BV/Inc. didn't issue exclusive-by-country licenses. While it appears on the surface that they have done exactly this, I have been met with what seems like incredulity from various DigiCash folks when I talk about it, so, for the time being, I'll take them at their word when they tell me it isn't so. Actually, when I think about it, it may be immaterial, as there are lots of countries on the internet to park underwriters and trustees in, and they can denominate their bearer cash instruments in any currency they want. One way or another, the software side of DigiCash would be gone. We figure out what the net present value is of the current licenses, and hope that a company can be formed around that cashflow and spun off into a separate software development company. If we're lucky, we make money on the spinoff and keep the patent. If we're not lucky, DigiCash will probably have to get rid of it's current obligations before *anyone* clueful would step in to pick up the patents, and just the patents, alone. Obviously, what has been spent so far building DigiCash, BV or Inc., is immaterial to any discussion of the future. Just like what happened to Chaum, et. al., when Negroponte and companies um, executed, the purchase of last version of DigiCash, we have to completely forget the all the money which has been spent on Digicash BV, now Digicash Inc., so far, and ignore the howls of the current investors, as painful as that may be to listen to. :-). They knew the job was dangerous when they took it, anyway... Okay, that's a nice story. How about some actual data? I expect the best way to get a handle of royalties is to start soliciting actual projected royalty estimates from potential developers and underwriters, but, frankly, I think that most developers and underwriters, like the rest of us, have no real idea how much money they're going to make. Nonetheless, if anyone's interested in telling me, offline, what they think they would would be fair royalty payments, either as an underwriter or as a developer, I'd like to hear their estimates. My PGP key is attached. My own rule of thumb, for cash anyway, is that an underwriter can probably charge no more than a bank charges to one of their non-customer ATM transactions. That's probably no more than $3.00 a withdrawl. They also get to keep the interest on the reserve account, if any, of course. Frankly, if the royalties are low enough, that may be more than enough revenue to bootstrap a business with, and I would personally lobby for as low a royalty structure as possible. That, of course, is driven entirely by the cost/revenue picture, but it might be that a majority of the short-term operations can be bootstrapped out of validation fees. That leaves all the other potential markets for blind-signature macroscale digital bearer settlement, everything from long-duration bandwidth purchases for IP or voice dialtone on up to actual securities transactions themselves. Most of these potential applications will occur after the patents expire, but whoever owns these patents should allow not only licenses to all comers, but, more to the point, should allow all *licensees* to worry about the legal ramafications of the patents' use. If a particular licensee can find a legal jurisdiction to offer utterly anonymous digital bearer instruments backed by totally anonymous reserves, then, as long as the licensee pays up, god bless 'em. The patents should be licensed within the law, certainly, but, other than that, their use should be considered value neutral, like all technology. As in all bearer markets before them, the digital bearer trustee will be the point of maximum legal compliance, and, as such, will be the functional "policeman" of the system. I leave the interesting solution of bearer-backed trustees for some other day, probably after the patents have long expired. Okay. There's lots more to talk about, of course, but I'm kind of tapped out on this for the time being. If you're an intellectual property lawyer, and you fancy yourself running the DigiCash patent portfolio, contact me directly. I'm not sure exactly what I can do, if anything, but I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on this, as the potential core person of this as yet imaginary enterprize, up to, and including what it would cost for you to sign on for this much fun as at least in-house counsel, if not the actual CEO. :-). In addition, if someone has a reasonable non-proprietary(!) estimate of the projected revenues on all those outstanding ecash contracts, that would be nice to know as well. The terms of those contracts, are, of course, probably unknowable at the moment, at least until someone has enough known scratch to belly up to the table, sign an NDA and take a peek. Of course, then they couldn't tell us anything anyway... Isn't this fun? Cheers, Bob Hettinga [Public keys ommitted] ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------160D55EEEBD38D036F141A24-- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Thu Nov 5 15:37:19 1998 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 07:37:19 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <99ebb21979319a23b4f5dafb9ef3cf83@anonymous> Re voting for politicos: just received this spam... --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- Subject: Psst..... Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:31:39 -0500 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981104093139.00b88b80 at nyc-services.nis.newscorp.com> >>> >>>>When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress in Ape Suits. >>>> >>>>Pass it on. >>>> --------- End forwarded message ---------- From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Thu Nov 5 15:46:45 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 07:46:45 +0800 Subject: Euro-Telecoms Standards gives access to GSM & other specs Message-ID: <199811052322.XAA02881@server.eternity.org> Someone pointed out this information to me. The European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) have granted access to allow everyone, not just members, to their specifications. These include the GSM specs. Start here: http://webapp.etsi.org/publicationssearch/ Adam From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 5 15:48:11 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 07:48:11 +0800 Subject: Project 415 Message-ID: <199811052256.RAA03477@camel8.mindspring.com> Duncan Campbell says he doubts the Paul Dore story has anything to do with P415/Echelon, which is a collection system not a satellite. Moreover, the description of a "deep space" satellite does not fit the the known parameters of those that gather intelligence. Might be a completely new type but that's a stretch. One article Anonymous posted says Paul Dore denies having anything to do with the Web page we cited here as having been removed. Another says the SETI people are pissed about the incident, one saying it has set SETI's credibility back "by a 100 years." Still unexplained is the reason for the now 11,000 downloads of Duncan's 1988 article on P451/Echelon in the last 36 hours. Could be an alien bot, pissed at being awakened by SETI putzes' screen savers. From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Nov 5 16:08:48 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:08:48 +0800 Subject: Grounding Message-ID: <364233E1.13BB@lsil.com> Jim, I really have to disagree about shielding and leakage. *** Electricity runs from a high-potential point to ground. If it isn't grounded it radiates away into space where it can be detected. If the Faraday Cage isn't grounded it simply acts as a parasitic oscillator and re-emits the signal from inside, though at a lower amplitude. Remember, charge rests on the *OUTSIDE* of a object so that any charge picked up internaly gets passed to the outside surface. *** Consider a battery-powered spark gap inside a copper box. Lots of beautiful wideband noise. I refuse to ground my copper box. I'm going to suspend it from a weather balloon over Menwith Hill. The solutions to the wave equation inside the cavity have a real part ~0 in the exponent. The boundary condition at the inside surface of the copper box splices together the solutions in the cavity and inside the conductor. Which solutions, BTW, have a real component that is non-zero so the waves are of exponentially decreasing amplitude the further into the Cu you go ( skin depth, power loss ). At the inside boundary, the higher the conductivity the smaller the E field at the surface, the shallower the skin depth and the more power is reflected with less loss. The amplitude of the internal Cu ( exponentially decreasing ) solutions at the outside surface determines the extent to which the wave leaks out because the solution is imaginary again outside. If it helps, the solution looks like the Schroedinger equation solution for a particle in a potential well when at least one boundary is a region of finite potential. Leakage has nothing to do with being grounded since the wave can be generated without the total charge residing on the surface of the box ( DC potential ) changing at all. What's there just moves around a little, that's all. I don't think it takes a whole lot of copper to do the job: the skin depth is pretty small. A copper screen behaves much like the copper sheet execept that it deviates as the wavelengths become closer to the dimensions of the holes. You might say that the resistivity increases with frequency. It leaks more. ** The 1st rule of electrons: They always take the shortest path to ground. Corollary: If they can't get to ground they radiate their excess energy away as photons. *** Oh, for crying out loud! Where did this stuff come from? I prefer the three laws of thermodynamics in layman's terms: i) You can't get something for nothing ii) The best you can do is break even iii) You can't even do that Works for my checking account too. Regards, Mike BTW - I'm still at a loss to understand what the geology has to do with RF shielding. Chaff, I think. BTW^2 - The more conductive the TARMAC the more clutter you'll get because it will be a better reflector. Ground or not. The incident waves *don't care*. From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 5 16:23:20 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:23:20 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811052358.AAA03470@replay.com> 24 shots came from 1 officer in Oregon case Policeman fired until gun empty, then reloaded and kept firing By BOB SABLATURA Copyright 1998 Houston Chronicle One of the officers nobilled in the death of Pedro Oregon Navarro fired his semiautomatic pistol at the 22-year-old man until the magazine was empty, then reloaded and continued firing. In all, Officer David R. Barrera fired 24 of the 33 shots discharged in Oregon's southwest Houston apartment July 12, according to sources familiar with the investigation. Assistant District Attorney Ed Porter confirmed that Barrera fired most of the shots. While the medical examiner's office could not determine the exact caliber of the bullets that made the 12 wounds in Oregon's body, Porter said, three of the four bullets recovered from the body were fired from Barrera's weapon. Porter, who was present on the scene a few hours after the shooting -- and reconstructed it during a walk-through with the officers involved -- suggested that the bullets that struck Oregon may have been some of the last shots that the officers fired. "I strongly suspect that was the case," Porter said. Richard Mithoff, an attorney representing Oregon's family, said it is "incomprehensible" that one of the officers paused to reload his weapon. "They had no grounds to be in the apartment, and no grounds to open fire," Mithoff said. "And if this is true, there certainly was no grounds to reload and execute this guy lying on the ground." Aaron Ruby, a member of the Justice for Pedro Oregon Coalition, said Barrera's actions could only be termed "homicidal and premeditated," and probably explain the numerous bullet holes in Oregon's back. "If that fact was known to the grand jury, it makes their actions all the more outrageous," Ruby said. "I believe the people of Houston will be stunned when they learn of this." Harris County District Attorney John B. Holmes Jr. said state law allows police officers to use deadly force if they believe it necessary for self-defense and can continue shooting "so long as they reasonably perceive" the threat continues. "An analogy I use is that if it is OK to kill a guy dead, it is OK to kill him dead, dead, dead," Holmes said. Holmes said it is also not uncommon for a police officer involved in a shooting to have no idea how many shots he fired. Barrera, a five-year veteran of the Houston Police Department, was armed with a 9 mm Sig-Sauer semi-automatic pistol loaded with nylon-coated bullets. According to the Police Department, after illegally entering Oregon's apartment with fellow members of the HPD gang task force in an unsuccessful search for drugs, Barrera and several other officers chased Oregon to his bedroom and kicked in the locked door. During the pursuit, Barrera's pistol discharged, striking one of his partners in the shoulder. The officers said they believed they were being shot at, and two officers joined Barrera in firing at Oregon. Barrera emptied his pistol, paused to reload a new magazine, and resumed firing, according to prosecutors. Investigators later determined that Barrera fired a total of 24 rounds. Barrera's weapon was originally loaded with a standard 16-round magazine, which held at least 14 rounds. He reloaded with an extended magazine holding even more rounds. The second magazine was not emptied, according to sources. Officers David R. Perkins and Pete A. Herrada fired a total of nine rounds between them. Both officers were armed with similar .40-caliber handguns. Perkins carried a Sig-Sauer Model 40 and Herrada was armed with a Glock Model 23. Prosecutors said only about 10 seconds elapsed from the time the shooting began to the time it ended. Semi-automatic pistols typically are double-action on the first shot, meaning that pulling the trigger draws the hammer back -- cocking it -- and then releases it. After the first shot, the hammer remains in a cocked position so less trigger-tension is required to fire the weapon, making it fire quicker. The officer can also aim the gun more accurately because it takes less movement of the trigger to discharge shots. Oregon's body was hit 12 times, nine times in the back, once in the back of the shoulder, and once in the back of his left hand. In addition, one shot entered the top of his head, exiting above the right ear. At least nine shots entered his body at a downward angle, suggesting he was shot while face-down on the floor. Four bullets were recovered from Oregon's body, and numerous bullet fragments were found underneath the carpet beneath the body. The body was face-down, with his head toward the doorway through which the police officers were firing. Attorneys for the Oregon family dispute the police officers' version of events, and say Oregon was not in the front of the apartment when police illegally barged in. "It is my understanding that he was in the bedroom," Mithoff said. They also contend that some of the officers' shots were fired through the bedroom wall, indicating they were blindly firing into the room. Porter said he has examined numerous crime scenes involving police shootings during his career and is amazed just how often shots fired by police officers miss their mark. "Most people think an officer fires a weapon and someone gets shot," Porter said. "Often that is just not the case." Holmes said the grand jury heard evidence regarding all the shots fired, the trajectory of the bullets, the position of the officers and the medical examiner's reports regarding wounds to Oregon's body. "The specific number of times and the path of the projectiles was known to the grand jury," Holmes said. After hearing all the evidence, a grand jury cleared five of the six officers -- including Barrera -- of all charges. One officer was charged with a misdemeanor offense of criminal trespass. Earlier this week, all six officers were fired by Chief C.O. Bradford for violating the law and ignoring department procedures. Barrera's attorney did not respond to a request for an interview. Rick Dovalina, national president of LULAC, said he is especially concerned that HPD Internal Affairs found the officers had violated the law in conducting the raid, but the grand jury had brought no charges. He renewed his call for Holmes to try to bring charges against the officers. "They are both supposed to be looking at the same evidence," Dovalina said. "Johnny Holmes needs to do the right thing and present the case to another grand jury." Posted for the entertainment of those that chide Tim for being armed to the teeth. Regards, TimeToBuyAGun From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 5 16:24:19 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:24:19 +0800 Subject: Holloween II: Microsoft Plugs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811052356.AAA03329@replay.com> If you liked Eric's halloween.html, you'll this one too -- chock full of hilarious Microsoft misunderstandings about Linux. > http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html is a more extensive... > internal analysis of Linux by Microsoft. Naughty boy, Robert -- now you've made me get coffee all over my keyboard: "The GCC and PERL language compilers are often provided for free with all versions of Linux... By the standards of the ... developer accustomed to VB [Visual Basic], these tools are incredibly primitive." ROTFL! This is obviously a hitherto unknown meaning for the word "primitive". OTOH, Vinod and Josh summarise things pretty well. Well worth reading (but read halloween.html first). 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It's faster than ever before and now, as a subscriber, you get 35 FREE new pics every day, plus over 100 more at carefully selected FREE sites we link to. This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Thu Nov 5 16:43:16 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:43:16 +0800 Subject: new 448 bit key by Indian firm In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981104234056.008b6880@idiom.com> Message-ID: <199811052342.XAA03335@server.eternity.org> Bill Stewart writes: > 448 bits sounds a lot like MD5-based encryption - perhaps > Luby-Rackoff or MDC? Or a homegrown system, doing successive MD5s > or something? MD5 is no longer the safest hash these days.... More likely Blowfish for two reasons i) the article mentioned blowfish at the bottom (;-), and ii) blowfish keys can be up to 448 bits. Could be snake oil, or could be result of letting marketroid near press release. The press release was very confused in general. Adam From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Nov 5 16:58:07 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:58:07 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. Message-ID: <364241B5.408B@lsil.com> Matt, > Please explain how you can sheild something without grounding it. > Doesn't the energy need some place to go? > Wrong metaphor for RF energy. It's not water. A ground is not a storm drain. Imagine two conductive spheres ( earth and moon ? ) and an RF generator in a box sitting *peacefully* in space. Classical 3-body problem. The DC potential that exists between any of them has absolutley no effect on a wave travelling anywhere ( unless you want to get into the topic of nonlinear materials ). So forget about everything in the scene except that generator in the box. Shielding consists solely of preventing the wave from getting out of the box into free space where it can be detected. There is nothing special about *any* of the DC references. Earth may be special ( source of women and beer ) but not to a wave. Besides, chaining my laptop to a giant copper spike in a geologically suitable region is out of the question. Just shielding it would make an already heavy ThinkPad into a main battle tank. Mike From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 17:07:20 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:07:20 +0800 Subject: Halloween II Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:53:46 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: love at cptech.org Originator: info-policy-notes at essential.org Sender: info-policy-notes at essential.org Precedence: bulk From: James Love To: Multiple recipients of list INFO-POLICY-NOTES Subject: Halloween II MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Comment: To unsubscribe from this list, send the message "unsubscribe info-policy-notes" to "listproc at essential.org". Leave the "Subject:" line blank. ------------------------------------------------------------ Info-Policy-Notes | News from Consumer Project on Technology ------------------------------------------------------------ November 5, 1998 Halloween II On November 2, 1998 Info-Policy-Notes provided a link to the so called Halloween document, which detailed Microsoft's analysis of Linux and other open source software. (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html) Now Eric Rayond has published a second document which he has dubbed Halloween II. This one is on the web at: http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html Halloween II is authored by Vinod Valloppillil (VinodV), the author of the Halloween I, and Josh Cohen (JoshCo). It is dated Aug 11, 1998 , and is version 1.0. The heading is: Microsoft Confidential Linux Operating System The Next Java VM? The document is very interesting. One line that has gotten a lot of attention is at the end, where the authors suggest: "The effect of patents and copyright in combating Linux remains to be investigated." The Linux community generally thinks they can out code Microsoft, so long as they are permitted. But there is a lot of concern over software patents, which are often very broad, poorly researched by the US government, and expensive to litigate. Under recent court cases, there are few barriers to harassment based upon spurious litigation over patents, so this is a cause for concern. On a topic discussed at some length in Halloween I, Halloween II says by "folding extended functionality into today's commodity [open standards] services and create new [proprietary] protocols, we raise the bar & change the rules of the game." (the brackets added by me). There is also an interesting article in today's Linux Today: Who are all these people behind the Halloween document? Nov 5th, 12:32:47 Here's an in-depth look at the personalities behind the Halloween documents. By Dave Whitinger http://linuxtoday.com/stories/638.html A few other related articles are Tim O'Rielly's Open Letter to Microsoft about Halloween I, which is on the web at: http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/press/tim_msletter.html and, news that Microsoft has tried to hire Linux hacker Alan Cox. This last one suggests Microsoft is stepping up their campaign to crush the open software movement. Here are some excerpts that Alan Cox posted today about the Halloween document. http://www.linux.org.uk/ [snip] Its important to realize how fundamental open standards are. Most people are probably sitting at a PC built with mixed cards from mixed vendors on an open standard bus, typing on a keyboard with open standard connectors, using an open standard Qwerty layout, talking an open standard RS232 serial protocol to a modem that talks an open protocol to the ISP. Its all running off a standard electricity specification. Even your chair is probably held together by open standard nuts and bolts. Computing is becoming a commodity item and like all commodity items it needs to be open, for the consumer and for the long term good of the industry as a whole. Linux is open, if there is anything you didn't get told you can check the source code. A couple of other fun things have happened too, the I2O SIG developing the next generation high end I/O interface for PC's have now made their specification open, and Microsoft tried to hire me. I think the I2O SIG have the better chance of success here. Alan This is Alan Cox's home page: http://www.linux.org.uk/diary/ There is also running commentary, much if it entertaining, often rather speculative, but also a very good source of breaking news on these issues at: http://www.slashdot.org Finally, CPT will be studying the Halloween documents, and asking antitrust authorities to determine if Microsoft's intended plans to corrupt open standards violate antitrust laws. More on this next week. Jamie Love 202.387.8030 ------------------------------------------------------------- INFORMATION POLICY NOTES: the Consumer Project on Technology http://www.cptech.org, 202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5127. Archives of Info-Policy-Notes are available from http://www.essential.org/listproc/info-policy-notes/ Subscription requests to listproc at cptech.org with the message: subscribe info-policy-notes Jane Doe To be removed from the list, the message should read, unsub info-policy-notes ------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 17:14:29 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:14:29 +0800 Subject: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. (fwd) Message-ID: <199811060036.SAA15709@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:24:21 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka > Subject: Re: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. > Wrong metaphor for RF energy. You said more than you know with that one. > It's not water. A ground is not a storm > drain. >From the perspective of the flow of charge that is a very good metaphor. Charge flows from the high charge area to the low charge area *always* and ground is by definition the lowest charge area there is. Just like water *always* flows from the high PE to the low PE. > Imagine two conductive spheres ( earth and moon ? ) and an RF generator > in a box sitting *peacefully* in space. Classical 3-body problem. That's gravity, not electrostatics. There are no intractable problems regarding n-body electrostatics issues as there is with gravity. Now of course in the real world we can't get one without the other, but you didn't mention that aspect. > The DC > potential that exists between any of them has absolutley no effect on a > wave travelling anywhere DC potentials have no effect on a wave anyway, they don't emit photons. They are a physical representation of a line intergral. The potential between two points is not effected by the path taken to get between the two points. > ( unless you want to get into the topic of > nonlinear materials ). Bullshit. > So forget about everything in the scene except > that generator in the box. Then why in hell did you bring it up in the first place. I smell spin doctor bullshit coming.... > Shielding consists solely of preventing the > wave from getting out of the box into free space where it can be > detected. There is nothing special about *any* of the DC references. There is no wave with DC. If you want to make a wave you have to *move* the DC field generator or the measurement device. Now the charge that is *in* the box will leak to the outside of the shield *even if it's an insulator*, it's called charge tunneling. > Earth may be special ( source of women and beer ) but not to a wave. Depends on a wave of what. If we're talking electrostatics then yes Earth is special. I would direct you to many of Nikola Tesla's work on this exact topic but you probably wouldn't read it. It's special because the Earth itself has a charge and that interacts with the charge on the box. If the charges are opposite they attract and the box moves toward the Earth (the Earth moves toward the box as well but the delta rho is inconsequential so we usualy ignore it). If the charges are identical then the two move apart. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 17:21:20 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:21:20 +0800 Subject: Grounding (fwd) Message-ID: <199811060053.SAA15809@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:25:21 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka > Subject: Re: Grounding > *** > Electricity runs from a high-potential point to ground. If it isn't > grounded > it radiates away into space where it can be detected. If the Faraday > Cage > isn't grounded it simply acts as a parasitic oscillator and re-emits the > signal from inside, though at a lower amplitude. Remember, charge rests > on > the *OUTSIDE* of a object so that any charge picked up internaly gets > passed > to the outside surface. > *** > > Consider a battery-powered spark gap inside a copper box. Lots of > beautiful wideband noise. I refuse to ground my copper box. I'm going to > suspend it from a weather balloon over Menwith Hill. And you'll build a hell of a charge on it which will travel down the connecting cable that you have pounded into the Earth. > The solutions to the wave equation inside the cavity have a real part ~0 > in the exponent. It's not a question of a Schroedingers Wave Equation, it's a question of Maxwell's Equations. > The boundary condition at the inside surface of the > copper box splices together the solutions in the cavity and inside the > conductor. What conductor? The shell is equipotential unless you're trying to play head games with me so there follows there can be no current flow through it except radialy to the outside of the sphere. Let's walk through it using your model.... The spark gap generates sparks and that builds up free electrons in the space inside the sphere (whether it is gas filled or a vacuum is irrelevant). As that charge builds up it will be all of one type, electrons. Now the electrons repel each other and therefor move in a circular motion with the spark gap as the center. They strike the surface of the sphere and tunnel through to the outside surface where they reside. The amount of charge at any one point is related to the curvature of the surface at that point. Since a sphere is constant curvature the charge will be evenly distributed. It will continue to build up so long as you supply power to the spark gap. In an ideal world it will get bigger and bigger. In the real world at some point insulation breaks down and normal current flow takes place. As to the 3 Laws of Thermodynamics, you should use Heinz Pagels (RIP) as they are much funnier and a lot easier to understand and apply: 1. You can't break even 2. You can't get ahead 3. You can't quit the game ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 18:01:01 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:01:01 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811060134.TAA15903@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:52:14 -0800 > > Yes, they are. Can you say 'taxes'? > > Imposed by a gun. Don't try to change the subject. Just because you don't find taxes worthwhile doesn't mean others do as well. My bitch is about the amount and the way it's legislated, not about paying them. I'd sure as hell rather pay taxes for police, fire, ems, etc. than try to deal with that all myself. If that were the case we wouldn't have a very high level of society since nobody would have time to run businesses, write great books, make movies, develop computers, etc. They'd be too damn busy sneaking up on the deer or shooting/stealing their neighbors food/wife. > > Can you say 'interstate commerce'? > > What about it? It's one of the defining characteristics that allow a government to be a economic factor in the economic system, contrary to the original thesis. > > Can you say 'mint money'? Can you say 'federal reserve'? > > Can you say government fiat? Can you say fucked up non-working economy if there isn't some standardization of monetary systems? I can see it now if folks like you get your way. When I go to Louisiana I'll need a whole new currency that I can't trade my Texas money for. Yep, that's an optimal way to run an economy. > > Can you say 'FDIC'? > > Can you say banking regulation at the point of a gun? Don't change the subject (again). > The Soviet Union is a prime recent example. How? > British Mercantilism. How? > Governments are ultimately bound to economics in the sense of human behavior > and productivity -- the more they deny the nature of microeconomic actors, > the quicker they self-destruct. Economics *is* human behaviour, the science is the tools that we use to describe what happens *after* the fact and if we're right we might even be able to make some small usable predictions about what people in a gross level will do in the future. If you are trying to extend economics to the extent of trying to predict the micro-economic actions of individuals then you don't understand macro or micro economics very well. > History shows that every dynasty well eventually self-destruct, to think > ours won't is foolish. Everything self desctructs at one point or another. Besides this issue is irrelevant and immaterial to whether it is legitimate to consider a government as an economic partner in a economic system, and whether that model for government includes aspects normaly thought of as being a commercial enterprise. Again, stay on topic. > My point is we don't have competitive governments per > se You are lost in a dream world, all government are competitive. Ask Clinton, Hussein, Pinochet, Netanyahuh, etc. Why? Because people are competitive, it's the way biology works. >, you have a power void that is filled by new government that can be just > as hostile to those microeconomic actors. All our government failures have > yet to produce a sustainable government. It never happens that way. The *only* time you have a power void is when there are no governments in the first place. Once they are established other governments and systems move in to take over the territory. It's quite biological (which shouldn't surprise anyone) in its behaviour. Usualy a government ceases because another government (whether internal or external is irrelevant to the point at hand) moves in and destroys the base of the original government. It might be by force but the fall of the CCCP clearly indicates that we are seeing governments change their systems radicaly without the violence, destruction, and death that historicaly such changes have required. The fall of the CCCP is a watershed event because it indicates that government systems can in fact change without these effects, that is a very hopeful sign. > > False distinction. Politics is about control and power > > The fundamental laws of economics are supply and demand. As soon as you > through force into the equation, it is no longer economic, it is political. No, the fundamental law of economics is greed/desire/want/etc. Supply and demand is how we describe the consequences of the flow of goods and services. Now exactly why you're bringing up economics when the issue in this case was the base motivations of politics smacks of a strawman. > > in human society that breaks down to force and money. > > The essence of money has no political roots. The essence of money is human > productivity and trade. Oh baloney. There are two aspects of organized human society (ie politics). Self-defence and self-sufficiency. The first requires brute force and the second requires some mechanism of trade. For a society to get very large at all *requires* a generalization of the barter system to a symbolic one, that symbol is money. > Money is tied to politics currently because it is regulated by force of > government and the money *supply* is created by government fiat. First, the money supply was created by a popular vote, not a government fiat because there was no government to execute the fiat at the time. Now as to money being tied to politics, see the paragraph above. > > There you go again, confusing privacy with economics... > > The discussion *was* *privacy*, No, the discussion was the viability of modeling a government as a economic entity within the economic system of a geographic region and what that meant. There was also a side issue relating privacy and freedom to anarchy. > discussion? Privacy (as opposed to secrecy) is about discretionary > disclosure of information. No, that is respect for privacy. Secrecy is the intentional act of hiding information that one doesn't want others to discover, not the same horse at all. > To invade privacy is to remove or prevent that > discretion. No, to invade privacy is to disrespect it. Discretion is knowing when to do it and not get caught. > There is an economic cost of doing so, and an economic benefit. Not necessarily. I can invade my childrens privacy and there is no economic cost or benefit. My neighbor can rifle my mail and there is no cost one way or the other (unless they steal my paycheck and that's a whole nother issue). The government could tap my phone and there would be no economic impact. Privacy does not require the issue of economics to brought into it until we begin to discuss economic strategies. It is the issue of money that brings privacy into the discussion and not the other way around. > Corporations are bound by those economics, whereas government can mandate > transparency by whim and gun. No, it is clear that governments are bound by the will of their citizens, their economy, geography, and their technology. They are not omnipotent. > > True, but that isn't a function of regulation per se only the > > particular type of regulation that we have implimented. > > It is the *nature* of regulation. No it isn't. I regulate my dogs behavior and don't use force. Football games are regulated by rules and they aren't imposed by force. The way my company works is very regulated but there is no force involved. No, regulation does not automaticaly imply force. Where force comes into play is when the issue being regulated effects many individuals and some of those individuals want the benefits but don't want to pay the costs. They want a free ride at others expense. > Government is a natural instrument of collective legalized force by any This is a non-sequetar, governments define legality they are not defined by it. There isn't some outside agency that defines what a government will do, it's internal to the government and its participants. > group that can influence it, and to think it can't and won't be influenced > denies human nature in regards to power. Yeah, so. I don't believe this is relevant since we all agree on this. It's a function of human nature to try to get in a position of special favor so at least some rules don't apply to you. It's a competitive advantage. > Every government is despotic by > nature, force corrupts. People are corruptable, governments are simply the framework they create to express it. > > No, they don't. It is perfectly legal for an individual to > > own a weapon. > > The legal monopoly on the *initiation* of force. I got news for you dude, I catch you in my truck after dark or running down the street with my property I'm perfectly within my rights to initiate force. > And in fact you have very > little freedom (eternally diminishing) to obtain potential force (arms) and > use it in a *reactionary* manner. You mean in an insiteful manner. You aren't talking about reacting to something you're veiled comment is to allow yourself for example to buy a weapon and kill me (for example) simply because you're pissed off about something. It surprises you that I and others won't give you that freedom? > You have absolutely *no* freedom to use it > reactionary against government (which is in the face of the 4th). ARTICLE IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. That in fact does allow you to shoot somebody if they enter your home illegaly, even a police officer. If you're being raped and shoot a cop it's perfectly legal. If he's beating the shit out of you it's perfectly legal to defend yourself, even to the point of killing the officer. The problem is your not wanting to use it in immediate self-defence, you're talking about going out and mowing people down simply because your pissed off at what they stand for and you can't get your way. Your pissed off, like all anarchist, that you can't take advantage of people with impunity. A childish and petulant view. I'm going to stop now since the rest of your email is more of the same. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 18:15:27 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:15:27 +0800 Subject: Who Cares (fwd) Message-ID: <199811060150.TAA15968@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:00:10 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: Who Cares (fwd) > While I won't deny that some of the people who don't vote are in > the position you claim they are, their not voting has nothing to do with > their economic position, it has to do with the facts that: Many of the people are in that situation. Most people don't vote for two reasons: 1. It won't significantly effect their lives one way or the other 2. They don't have time, or at least don't believe they have time. > 1) This is a mid-term election. Since it isn't a presidential > election, fewer really care to research the issues (which are fewer). Yeah, why? (hint: see 1.) > 2) We are currently in decent economic times, and as Terry Pratchet > noted on Men At Arms, (paraphrasing here) Most people don't really care > about democrazy, Equal Rights, or any of that, they just want tomorrow to > be exactly like today. Then Terry Pratchet is an idiot. People don't want it to stay the same, they want it to get better. They want more money, a bigger house, better clothes, a cooler car, etc. If you and Terry seriously don't believe folks understand democracy (though they may not act the way you want them to in expressing it) then you should spend some time talking to people and askign them how much they would take to get rid of the Constitution, allow cops to wander through their homes at will, etc. You're both in for a very rude surprise. > 3) As Jimmy notes, there usually isn't much of a difference between > one canidate and the other (outside of the Natural Law types), and those > canidates who _are_ different (Libertarians, Socialists &etc. ("reform" > types don't count, they really are for making tomorrow just like yesterday > & today, only they ADMIT it for the most part)) either don't get enough > votes to challenge the status quo, or if there is an issue that will > challenge the status quo, the number of voters tends to increase (to > varying degrees). True, though I'd say the reason that we don't have a more diverse political venue is because we don't have proportional seating in the various houses. That was a fundamental fault with the founding fathers, they misunderstood the homogeneity of peoples view. Of course they didn't have a clue about television and such causing a global homogeniety. But then again, that is our cross to bear in living up to 'a more perfect union'. The one unifying aspect that amazes me about many of you folks on this mailing list is your complete lack of understanding of your own duty and responsibilities in this government. You bitch and bitch and yammer about what's wrong but you have no desire to fix it, your so focused on initiating violence it's pathetic. When the Constitutuion was written the job was just begun, it wasn't finished as you seem to imply. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 5 18:16:49 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:16:49 +0800 Subject: Who Cares (fwd) Message-ID: <199811060151.TAA16014@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:49:53 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: Who Cares > The fact that it is meaningful to you means you will never (as long > as it is meaningful to you) get anywhere as a politician, as you still > actively beleive that a politican is there to do the will of the people. Politicians are, unfortunately the problem is the people who becom politicians. > This can be demonstrated to be a false assumption. We're waiting.... ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mlanett at meer.net Thu Nov 5 18:32:48 1998 From: mlanett at meer.net (Mark Lanett) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:32:48 +0800 Subject: Holloween II: Microsoft Plugs Linux Message-ID: <003f01be092a$5ee1b800$692856cf@frohike.novita.com> From: Anonymous > By the standards of the ... developer accustomed to VB [Visual > Basic], these tools are incredibly primitive." How strange! I just talked about that paragraph with a friend of mine and he missed the EXACT same key words that you did. You LEFT OUT THE KEY WORDS! The actual message said: >By the standards of the novice / intermediate developer accustomed to VB/VS/VC/VJ, these tools are incredibly >primitive. Which is completely correct. What I replied to the buddy: Well they *are* [primitive]. You have to write a MAKEFILE for crying out loud. You can't go from error messages to the source code / line in your editor (unless you use Emacs). It's so stupid. Someone could write a simple (scratch-itch) OSS IDE and dominate the market in no time. The funny thing is that this was the DOS situation... MS hasn't been out of "primitive" for that long itself. Of course for experienced developers, GCC's 140 platforms (w/ cross-compiling) and optimizations and all is killer. But what's the ratio of less experienced to sophisticated developers? ~mark From hallam at ai.mit.edu Thu Nov 5 18:39:49 1998 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:39:49 +0800 Subject: Digicash bankruptcy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002401be092a$35bb5b20$bf011712@games> Phil is right in much of what he says but in a couple of cases he is wrong. Regarding the 'vortex of buzz technologies', VRML, network computers and push are certainly not hot properties at the moment, neither is interactive TV - but the Web was designed as the antithesis of Interactive TV. The root failure of Interactive TV was the assumption that the world wanted to spend its time passively consuming the dross pumped out through a 1000 channel 120" TV which would dominate the home. I would also like to add Java onto the pile. Java today is simply what C++ should have been. It does not revolutionize the programming industry, it simply provides what some people think is an object oriented programming environment and removes some of the worst legacy clutter of C. Cryptographic payment systems are here - in the form of credit card transactions over SSL. The main problem with SET and its competitors is that SSL works a little too well. That is not to say that there is no future for SET. SSL and credit cards are unlikely to make the leap from the consumer market to the business to business market. SET provides an ideal platform to integrate the use of the credit card infrastructure for business payments. The other area where I would disagree is over protocols. HTTP is quite radically different to FTP in that it is a computer client to computer server protocol. The metaphor of FTP is rumaging through a filing cabinet. The HTTP and Web mechanism employs a locator. Admittedly there was nothing to stop a text mode Web being created in 1982 but nobody did so. What is true is that the time taken for Internet technologies to move to market is very slow. Much of the HTTP technology that just reached the market was proposed in '92 and '93. Finaly I have difficulty regarding Digicash as being all that socially responsible. Chaum's problems had a lot to do with the business terms he insisted on. What he had was a technology which allowed an improvement to a payment system. He imagined he had a monopoly on the only feasible solution. He was very baddly mistaken. The monopoly rents he demanded were more than the market was willing to pay for a working and deployed system - let alone for a patent license. Phill From prize at survey.com Thu Nov 5 19:02:01 1998 From: prize at survey.com (prize at survey.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:02:01 +0800 Subject: Holiday Shopping Survey And Contest Message-ID: <199811051834.SAA16328@survey.survey.com> Dear Internet User, The holiday season will soon be upon us. Will you be making your list and checking it twice online? We're curious about what role, if any, the Internet will play in your holiday plans this year. Share your opinions with us and you could win a free Talking Tommy (from hit Rugrats' TV Show) or Talking Teletubby toy (from popular PBS show). To join in the holiday fun, go to the survey at: http://www.survey.com/holshopsur.html Be sure to include your email address at the end of the survey so we can enter your name in the drawing. It is not required that any information be provided other than your email address for you to be entered into the drawing. A complete list of contest rules is attached to the survey. We will be happy to let you know when the results are ready. Happy Holidays and good luck on the drawing! Greg Harmon Director of Research World Research From sjl at sjl.net Thu Nov 5 20:10:09 1998 From: sjl at sjl.net (Scott Loftesness) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:10:09 +0800 Subject: Digicash bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <002401be092a$35bb5b20$bf011712@games> Message-ID: <004d01be0937$e147c160$0300a8c0@sjl4120> > Phillip Hallam-Baker > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 6:08 PM > Subject: RE: Digicash bankruptcy ... > Finaly I have difficulty regarding Digicash as being all that socially > responsible. Chaum's problems had a lot to do with the business terms > he insisted on. What he had was a technology which allowed an improvement > to a payment system. He imagined he had a monopoly on the only feasible > solution. He was very baddly mistaken. The monopoly rents he demanded > were more than the market was willing to pay for a working and deployed > system - let alone for a patent license. Where does the "monopoly rents" comment come from? In other words, on what basis are you making that statement? Scott From hallam at ai.mit.edu Thu Nov 5 20:15:36 1998 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:15:36 +0800 Subject: Digicash bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <004d01be0937$e147c160$0300a8c0@sjl4120> Message-ID: <002701be0939$b34ce720$bf011712@games> > > Finaly I have difficulty regarding Digicash as being all that socially > > responsible. Chaum's problems had a lot to do with the business terms > > he insisted on. What he had was a technology which allowed an > improvement > > to a payment system. He imagined he had a monopoly on the only feasible > > solution. He was very baddly mistaken. The monopoly rents he demanded > > were more than the market was willing to pay for a working and deployed > > system - let alone for a patent license. > > Where does the "monopoly rents" comment come from? > > In other words, on what basis are you making that statement? Chaum's reported demands for patent licensing fees were consistently above 10-20% of the service revenue plus a significant up front fee. Those levels are more usually associate with a monopolistic patent, hence 'monopoly rent'. The fact that Chaum didn't have the monopoly he appeared to imagine is probably why nobody was queuing up to pay his demands. Phill From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 5 20:51:29 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:51:29 +0800 Subject: FYI: Digicash bankruptcy Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From: "Thomas Junker" To: dbs at philodox.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: FYI: Digicash bankruptcy Reply-to: Thomas Junker Priority: normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ On 5 Nov 98, at 14:32, Nahum Goldmann quoted Phil Agre as having writ: > [With the bankruptcy of Digicash, it is time to assemble the definitive > list of underperforming Internet technologies. The received wisdom is > that the Internet lies at the vortex of a historically unprecedented era > of intensive and disruptive technological change. A sober reading of the > evidence, however, supports something much closer to the opposite thesis, > viz, the Internet is a modest and useful new tool that, despite itself, > has given rise to an astonishingly wasteful mania whereby perfectly good > capital is plowed into one ill-conceived technology after another. Is Agre a friend of Metcalfe? One wrings his hands over what other people choose to risk their money on in Internet technology development and the other solemnly predicts that the Internet will implode. If those two guys ever get together, the ambient lumens will dim for miles around. NRO will be repositioning satellites to check out the grey hole of pessimism laying like a blanket over their meeting place. > So right now would be an excellent time > for us to renounce the false idea that we are living in a time of > unprecedented technical change. Yeah, right. Listen to this guy and die. That's his message. > ...it is running behind the penetration rates that > earlier technologies such as the radio and gas cooking achieved once they > started being adopted on a mass scale... Had this guy been commenting back then, he would no doubt have been wringing his hands over all the silly things being done with radio and all the failed ideas and ventures. Checking out those future-fantasy clips from the '50's is instructive... I *still* don't have a kitchen or bathroom as spiffy as what they were telling everyone they would have a few short years -- I don't have a constant-temperature shower or cleverly designed foldaway shelves, tables, trays and ironing boards hidden in every nook and cranny of the kitchen. In fact, looking at one of those on video got me in the mood to go back 40 years so I could look forward to having those neat things. More importantly, though, as great as the utility of radio has been in many areas, it has mostly been a one-way incoming pipe for the average person. Its greatest utility value in that mode has probably been news delivery, but that is highly overrated. If you tune out the news in all forms for two weeks, you will be a lot less stressed and realize that, by and large, what makes the news doesn't care a whit about you, and if you con't care a whit about the news, no pieces of the sky fall in. If radio hadn't been regulated as badly and suffocatingly as it was, and if people without propellors on their heads could have used it to communicate with friends and associates over long distances instead of waiting for telephone operators to call them back to tell them a trunk had become available for their annual long distance call to Mamain Toledo, perhaps radio would have had a hugely greater impact than it did. Radio came, radio was monopolized, and it became just another flavor of newspaper or magazine. Now gas, there's a revolutionary development! Convenient, yes. Revolutionary, no. Were we able to cook before gas? Were we able to heat before gas? Did gas mean that Father no longer had to trek to an office or factory to earn his living? Were we suddenly able to shuttle business documents back and forth between Passaic, New Jersey and Jakarta at zero incremental cost? Did gas perhaps enable millions of people to shift their modes of work and cut the ties with fixed offices? Maybe gas enabled multimedia communication, as in Smell-o-Vision? Geez! So it was convenient. So lots of people rushed out and utilized it in a short time. So? What did it change? It may have made some industrial processes cheaper or more feasible. It made some very uninteresting aspects of life less time and attention consuming. > Internet protocols that we use today are unchanged in their essentials > from about 1982. Isn't that like denigrating all of wheeled transport by pointing out that gee, the wheels we use today are unchanged in their essentials from about 4000 B.C. (or whenever)? And your point is...? > In fact, once the real history of this era is written, I > think that 1982 will shape up as the true annus mirabilis, and 1994 will > simply be seen as the era when the innovations of ten to fifteen years > earlier finally caught public attention and reached the price point that > was needed to achieve the network externalities required for its large- > scale adoption. Can you spell M-O-S-A-I-C? > If we get out the rake and drag away all of the detritus > of the underperforming technologies that I listed above, and compare our > times on an apples-for-apples basis with other periods of technological > innovation -- including the Depression era, for heaven's sake -- then I > think we will have a much healthier perspective going forward. Yes indeedy, that's what we should all do when we need a lift -- drag out Dad's or Grandpa's Depression scrapbook and get some *real* perspective! That'll drive out that pesky optimism and make us thankful for not having to run down the road chasing the family farm as it blows away in the wind. Yessirree, those pics of Uncle Dwork selling apples will straighten us right up and dispel those silly fantasies of interconnecting the world, working from Tahiti, or making a killing with a killer Internet app. There oughta be a law! It should be illegal to offend good, pessimistic outlooks by running around in circles showering ideas and developments like sparks. > As it is, > people the world over have been propagandized into a state of panic, one > that encourages them to abandon all of their experience and common sense > and buy lots of computer equipment so that they will not be scorned by > their children and left behind by the apocalypse Where does this guy *get* this stuff? How many people do we *know* who fit this description, hmmm? Even one? Well, OK, but Aunt Mabel doesn't count -- she invested in bull semen, too, though we all thought she did it with just a tad too much enthusiasm. > The sad line-up of underperforming technologies should be > understood not as serious attempts at innovation but as a kind of ritual, > an expensive and counterproductive substitute for the chants and dances > that healthy societies perform when they are placed under stress. Maybe > once we get some healthy rituals for contending with technological change > ourselves, we will be able to snap out of our trance, cast off the > ridiculous hopes and fears of an artificially induced millennium, and take > up the serious work of discussing, organizing, and contesting the major > choices about our institutions that lie ahead.] Oh, geez, I can hear this now, around 1725 or 1750... people in England and on the continent, naysaying the wild and wooly schemes and hopes for opportunity and fortune in the new world. It must be part of the curse of the human condition that we have to have gloomy people like this hanging on the coattails of invention, being dragged kicking and screaming into a future they cannot avoid no matter *how* loudly they complain. Regards, Thomas Junker tjunker at phoenix.net http://www.phoenix.net/~tjunker/wang.html The Unofficial Wang VS Information Center --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From narry at geocities.com Thu Nov 5 21:26:02 1998 From: narry at geocities.com (Narayan Raghu) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:26:02 +0800 Subject: new 448 bit key by Indian firm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3641D5F0.8DFAE64C@geocities.com> Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 03:43 AM 11/3/98 +0530, Narayan Raghu wrote: > > Indian firm unveils 448-bit encryption > > 448 bits sounds a lot like MD5-based encryption - perhaps Luby-Rackoff > or MDC? > Or a homegrown system, doing successive MD5s or something? > MD5 is no longer the safest hash these days.... > > Thanks! > Bill Nopes. It's an implementation of blowfish. you might get some info at www.signotron.com the guy at the fair claimed that it's the strongest existing implementation of cryptography available in the world to date .. and he was no "sales" guy - seemed technical enough ... what this s/w seems to be doing is that it gets into ur windows OS, (works ONLY on windows) and everytime you "save" a file, it captures it, encrypts it, and stores it .. so nothing on your disc is ever left unencrypted. ofcourse there must be a lot of such packages in the US .. but the novelty here, according to this guy was that it was developed outside the US, and it's price (USD 40) .... rgds nar From mgering at ecosystems.net Thu Nov 5 21:43:13 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:43:13 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B253@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> > > > Yes, they are. Can you say 'taxes'? > > > > Imposed by a gun. > > Don't try to change the subject. I'm not, taxes are a political transaction, I must pay them whether or not I demand the service or disservice I receive for them -- taxes are not bound by supply and demand. > It's one of the defining characteristics that allow a > government to be a economic factor in the economic system It is the defining excuse for the FEDERAL government to interfere with the economic system. > > > Can you say 'mint money'? Can you say 'federal reserve'? > > > > Can you say government fiat? > > Can you say fucked up non-working economy if there isn't some > standardization of monetary systems? I can see it now if > folks like you get your way. Try studying the free banking era of the Mid 1800's, or the international exchange markets. > When I go to Louisiana I'll need a whole new > currency that I can't trade my Texas money for. Why can't you trade your Texas money? Who is to prevent you? Who is to prevent other from meeting the exchange demand? Who it so prevent people from accepting it in trade? Clearly with the digitization of money, multiple currencies are not a problem. > > > Can you say 'FDIC'? > > > > Can you say banking regulation at the point of a gun? > > Don't change the subject (again). I'm not, the gun is the defining characteristic that makes it political and not economic. > > The Soviet Union is a prime recent example. > > How? Self-destructed command economy that created prices by fiat instead of obeying market economics. > > British Mercantilism. > > How? Self-destructed empire (starting with our war of independence) by creating artificial trade barriers between the colonies to reap artificial profits at the colonies expense (which was really at the heart of the revolution, not taxation nor representation). > Economics *is* human behaviour Let's expand the definition to the point it has no meaning. No thank you. Economics is production and trade; human behavior affects trade, it is not economics. > If you are trying to extend economics to the > extent of trying to predict the micro-economic actions of > individuals then you don't understand macro or micro > economics very well. You can predict the actions of groups of individuals if you understand the nature of individuals. Predicting an individual is left to the soothsayers. > No, the fundamental law of economics is > greed/desire/want/etc. Okay, you take your laws of greed/want/desire and figure out how to sustain life. > Self-defence and self-sufficiency. The first requires brute > force and the second requires some mechanism of trade. No, self-sufficiency by its definition means you are...well...sufficient by yourself. If you require trade, you are no longer self-sufficient. > symbol is money. Money either has intrinsic value, or it is a symbol and debt against something held of value, or it is a debt on the future acquisition of value produced by someone else -- i.e. future productivity. > First, the money supply was created by a popular vote, not a > government fiat Oh, please do tell when/where this popular vote took place. We've moved from intrinsic value currency to a currency representing hard value (gold) to something that represents nothing more than faith of government, and whose supply is controlled by fiat of a *private* institution -- the Federal Reserve Board. > > discussion? Privacy (as opposed to secrecy) is about discretionary > > disclosure of information. Discretion by you of the disclosure by you of information about you. Make sense? The other type of privacy, somehow preventing other people from disclosing information about you by means other than mutual agreement is privacy of the statist type. > > There is an economic cost of doing so, and an economic benefit. > > The government could tap my phone and there would be > no economic impact. No cost, eh? I suggest you take a look at the congressional allocations for FBI wiretapping capabilities. > No, regulation does not automaticaly imply force. Correct -- in fact the only regulations by private individuals/entities that *do* have force behind them is that of the custodian/dependent relationship, and they are limited. But find a government regulation that does not have the confiscation of your property (by force) and/or incarceration of your person (by force) as the absolute finality to non-compliance. They are few. > Yeah, so. I don't believe this is relevant since we all agree > on this. Oh, I forgot if you agree it irrelevant because you are simply being entirely combative. > I got news for you dude, I catch you in my truck after dark > or running down the street with my property I'm perfectly > within my rights to initiate force. But you are not the initiator, you are reacting to my initiation of a force (or derivative), in this case trespass and theft. > You mean in an insiteful manner. You aren't talking > about reacting to something you're veiled comment is No, force in reaction to force. That is plainly simple. > > You have absolutely *no* freedom to use it > > reactionary against government (which is in the face of the 4th). Brain fart, the 2nd. The right to bears arms has historically implied the right to bear arms in defense against a despot. Matt From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 5 21:54:43 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:54:43 +0800 Subject: Holloween II: Microsoft Plugs Linux In-Reply-To: <003f01be092a$5ee1b800$692856cf@frohike.novita.com> Message-ID: <199811060531.GAA00781@replay.com> >>>>> Mark Lanett writes: >> By the standards of the novice / intermediate developer >> accustomed to VB/VS/VC/VJ, these tools are incredibly >> primitive. > Which is completely correct... Perhaps I missed the part of Visual Basic that was supposed to be "incredibly" less "primitive" than GCC and PERL. Unfortunately, I have to actually *use* VB5 for my employer (who will remain nameless, other than to say that they're one of the world's largest electronics manufacturers, and firmly in bed with Micro$oft). So far as I have been able to discern, its only advantage is the ability to prototype screens quickly. When it comes to actually *debugging*, any reasonably large program causes enough system crashes that you've got to try to build mini test environments to test out individual pieces. (Yup, it's exactly as good a programming environment as M$ Word is a desktop publishing environment.) Sure, GCC is just a compiler. But my combination of GCC, DDD, and XEmacs provide a development environment that is more powerful than any of Microsoft's products, as easy to use, and is just as "mouse- friendly". (Hell, I use GCC instead of VC for NT code, too.) Maybe I've been out of the "novice" stage for too long to understand the attraction of VB. But the other hardware engineers (certainly novice programmers) in this group won't touch it except at gunpoint either. But its use -- like that of NT itself -- has been mandated from above by beancounters and IT managers. -- CurmudgeonMonger From informer at earthlink.net Fri Nov 6 14:42:25 1998 From: informer at earthlink.net (informer at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:42:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811062242.OAA04144@toad.com> 11/06/98 INTERNET NEWS:BUSINESS WIRE 2:36pm EST Re:21st Century Frontier Group, Inc. Nasdaq OTC:"TCFG" TCFG strikes $150mm deal with Sumitomo Bank, Japans' 2nd largest bank for construction of 6 hotels and casinos, the first of which to be built in San Juan, Puerto Rico! From frantz at netcom.com Fri Nov 6 00:54:13 1998 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:54:13 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops In-Reply-To: <199811052109.WAA21423@replay.com> Message-ID: Not exactly a laptop thing, but it occurs to me that you might be able to get destructive interference of the signal waves from a monitor by running two monitors, and sending inverse signals to each. If we assume the signal is 100MHz, that means a wavelength of 3 meters. You probably need small monitors close together. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Macintosh: Didn't do every-| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | thing right, but did know | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | the century would end. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From x at x.com Fri Nov 6 00:57:09 1998 From: x at x.com (x) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:57:09 +0800 Subject: Netscape inside scoop on "Smart Browsing" Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981106004101.0071a044@shell15.ba.best.com> Natrificial's "Brain" product did the same thing, silently, or at least via a nonobvious option setting that was not explicitly documented. The transmittal of all your URL's to the mother ship was how they would inform you that you were hitting a page specially enabled for their S/W. Totally unnecessary, as the page, if so enabled, would be perfectly capable of notifying the browser with the addition of a trivial plugin, e.g. or other thing. I raised the issue of disclosing this kind of thing and got the usual "we're technology users too and we'd NEVER do anything with that information..." response, like it's no big deal. I stopped using and recommending the product, even though it looked like with the proper option setting I would no longer be reporting my bizarre habits to Natrificial. This shit's outta hand ..... >> * IS SMART BROWSING REALLY SO SMART? >> (contributed by Mark Joseph Edwards, http://www.ntsecurity.net) >> Many of you are aware of Netscape's new versions of its Navigator Web >> browser. But do you also know that, starting with version 4.06, the >> product's Smart Browsing feature can report to Netscape every Web page >> you visit, including addresses to private sites on your internal >> network? And are you aware that when you download a secure version of >> Netscape's browser, the process places a cookie on your system that can ... etc ... >> > >Rick Desautels >Sr. Systems Engineer >Rival Computer Solutions >rivalcs at ma.ultranet.com > > >-- >To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to majordomo at blu.org >with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: >unsubscribe isig > >--- end forwarded text > > >----------------- >Robert A. Hettinga >Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 6 02:13:08 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:13:08 +0800 Subject: US Cyberthreat Policy In-Reply-To: <199811051449.JAA12327@camel8.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981105012448.0094c240@idiom.com> At 04:37 PM 11/5/98 -0500, Ken Williams wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Kenneth A. Minihan and George J. Tenet Elected to America Online, Inc. >Board of Directors >New Board Members Hail From NSA and CIA Yee-hah!!! Happy Guy Fawkes Day!!! Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From prize at survey.com Fri Nov 6 02:16:04 1998 From: prize at survey.com (prize at survey.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:16:04 +0800 Subject: Holiday Shopping Survey And Contest Message-ID: <199811051834.SAA16334@survey.survey.com> Dear Internet User, The holiday season will soon be upon us. Will you be making your list and checking it twice online? We're curious about what role, if any, the Internet will play in your holiday plans this year. Share your opinions with us and you could win a free Talking Tommy (from hit Rugrats' TV Show) or Talking Teletubby toy (from popular PBS show). To join in the holiday fun, go to the survey at: http://www.survey.com/holshopsur.html Be sure to include your email address at the end of the survey so we can enter your name in the drawing. It is not required that any information be provided other than your email address for you to be entered into the drawing. A complete list of contest rules is attached to the survey. We will be happy to let you know when the results are ready. Happy Holidays and good luck on the drawing! Greg Harmon Director of Research World Research From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 05:31:42 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:31:42 +0800 Subject: My first order of Business (http://www.jesseventura.org/bbs/messages/3052.html) (fwd) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications From: Robbin Stewart Subject: My first order of Business (http://www.jesseventura.org/bbs/messages/3052.html) (fwd) Comments: To: robbin stewart To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM It appears that we've found a solution to spam. Somebody sent "make money fast" type post to Jesse's web-based bulliten board and got the following response. Forwarded message: > Subject: My first order of Business >(http://www.jesseventura.org/bbs/messages/3052.html) > > My first order of Business > > > [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ jesseventura Message Board ] > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------- > > Posted by Jesse Ventura on November 06, 1998 at 02:03:38: > > In Reply to: $$ posted by $$ on November 06, 1998 at 01:05:44: > > Is to rid the internet of spammers like this JERK. By the way we have = > your IP and your interner provider will be contacted, enjoy your 6X9 = > cell.=20 > --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 05:32:28 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:32:28 +0800 Subject: RSA Seeks Nominees for Awards & $10K Honors Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: vin at shell1.shore.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:27:20 -0500 To: "John Young" , "Dave Farber" From: Vin McLellan Subject: RSA Seeks Nominees for Awards & $10K Honors Cc: cryptography at c2.net Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Vin McLellan RSA Data Security invites industry and political activists, netizens, and scholars to nominate individuals who should be honored for their "outstanding contributions" to the field of cryptography. RSADSI annually awards three US$10,000 prizes to innovators and leaders in the fields of Mathematics, Public Policy, and Industry. The final selection is by a panel of academic and industry experts, but the nomination process is open to all. Nominations for the 1999 Awards can be made directly at anytime before 12/4/98. "The RSA Award in Mathematics recognizes innovation and ongoing contributions to the field of cryptography. The Committee seeks to reward nominees who are pioneers in their field, and whose work has applied value." Nominees should be affiliated with universities or research labs. The 1998 winner of the RSA Math Award was Dr. Shafrira Goldwasser, who was also named to the RSA Professorship at MIT last year. Prof. Goldwasser's pioneering work in number theory, complexity, and cryptography has also won MIT's Grace Murray Hopper Award and the first Godel Prize. Congressman Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) -- primary sponsor of HR 696, the Security and Freedom Thru Encryption (SAFE) Act -- was the 1998 winner of the RSA Public Policy Award. This prize seeks to honor elected or appointed officials, or activists associated with public interest groups, who have made a "significant contribution" to the American policy debate about cryptography over the previous calendar year. The RSA Award for Industry seeks to honor individuals or organizations which have made outstanding contributions in commercial applications of crypto -- "particularly those that provide clear value to the end users" -- and demonstrated "ongoing innovation in their technology and products." The 1998 winner was Netscape, source of SSL and a steady steam of clever innovations for the denizens of the web. Taher ElGamal accepted for Netscape. The three winners for 1999 will be announced at the 1999 RSA Data Security Conference, which (having outgrown Nob Hill, to the regret of many) is being held in San Jose, January 17-21. See: ----- Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548 -- <@><@> -- For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help". --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 05:37:06 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:37:06 +0800 Subject: Nov. 8 column - stop and search Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:44:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: vin at dali.lvrj.com Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vinsends at ezlink.com From: Vin_Suprynowicz at lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) Subject: Nov. 8 column - stop and search Resent-From: vinsends at ezlink.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/585 X-Loop: vinsends at ezlink.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vinsends-request at ezlink.com FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED NOV. 8, 1998 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz To enhance officer safety and convenience Fortunately, even the most traditionally "law-and-order" members of the U.S. Supreme Court seemed both surprised and skeptical Tuesday when confronted with the broad discretion which Iowa now grants its police to search drivers pulled over for routine traffic violations ... even without any "probable cause" to believe a further crime has been committed. Appellant Patrick Knowles was stopped for speeding on March 6, 1996, in Newton, Iowa. An officer gave Knowles a speeding ticket and then informed him he had a right to search Knowles and his cart, which the cop proceeded to do. The search turned up a pipe and a small quantity of marijuana, which Iowa courts allowed to be used as evidence. Knowles was convicted and sentenced to 90 days in jail, but is now appealing based on the Constitution's Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches. "If somebody jaywalks, the police could search them?" asked Justice John Paul Stevens. "Correct," explained Iowa Assistant Attorney General Bridget A. Chambers. Justice Antonin Scalia then asked Ms. Chambers whether an officer could stop someone, arrest and search them, and then drop the arrest. Yes, she said. "Wow," the justice responded. The record of the initial court case reveals that arresting Officer Ronald Cook was "disarmingly candid" on the subject of probable cause, in the phrase of long-term court watcher James J. Kilpatrick. "Anything you observed lead you to believe or give you probable cause to believe that he was involved in criminal activity?" the officer was asked. "Not on this date, no," he responded. "It was your understanding that simply because you had issued him a citation that that gave you the right to search him and his vehicle?" "Yes, ma'am." About 400,000 people are given traffic tickets each year in Iowa, Knowles' lawyer, Paul Rosenberg, told the high court Tuesday. But police invoke their authority to conduct searches only selectively, since if everyone given a traffic ticket were searched, "the people wouldn't stand for it." Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist reminded the parties that police already have authority to conduct a search following an arrest, to protect their own safety and to preserve evidence. But regarding a need to preserve evidence, the chief justice added, "When you have a traffic stop, you're not going to find any more evidence of speeding when you search a person's car." The Supreme Court's 1973 decision allows police to conduct a "search incident to arrest," noted Justice Anthony M. Kennedy. But "You want to turn it around and have an arrest incident to search. ... It seems to me that would be an abuse of authority." "It does seem an enormous amount of authority to put into the hands of the police," agreed Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Regular observers of the court warn us not to draw too many conclusions from the jurists' questions alone -- the justices have been known to play devil's advocate, challenging the position of a party whose side they actually intend to favor, in order to better develop their own arguments. But this sounds like a case where the court's astonishment over Iowa's brazen defiance of the Constitutional ban on "unreasonable" and warrantless searches was no sham. The notion that we should not object to government agents stopping and frisking any passer-by since "It's for the protection of everyone" and "The innocent have nothing to fear," is the next-to-last stop on the one-way trainride to tyranny. Yes, such measures appear to make the policeman's lot a bit easier, in the short run. But once the populace begin to see these officers not as friendly keepers of the peace and protectors of our liberties, but rather as a hostile occupying army, patting us down and muscling through our belongings at will, that could quickly change. As the Hessians learned in 1776. The high court is expected to rule in the case of Mr. Knowles by July. Let us hope the Supremes set a firm high water mark for this particular tide of tyranny, and begin to roll it back. Cops deserve our praise and support when they undertake the dangerous job of chasing down violent thugs and felons -- but not when they turn to rummaging through our pockets, our glove compartments, and our sock drawers. Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin at lvrj.com The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it. -- John Hay, 1872 The most difficult struggle of all is the one within ourselves. Let us not get accustomed and adjusted to these conditions. The one who adjusts ceases to discriminate between good and evil. He becomes a slave in body and soul. Whatever may happen to you, remember always: Don't adjust! Revolt against the reality! -- Mordechai Anielewicz, Warsaw, 1943 * * * --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 05:41:48 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:41:48 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.16: Using Credit Reports Crooks Assume YourIdentity & Buy Luxury Cars Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com From: "ama-gi ISPI" To: Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.16: Using Credit Reports Crooks Assume Your Identity & Buy Luxury Cars Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:26:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: list Reply-To: "ama-gi ISPI" ISPI Clips 6.16: Using Credit Reports Crooks Assume Your Identity & Buy Luxury Cars News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday November 6, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: The Las Angeles Times, Friday, October 23, 1998 http://www.latimes.com Grand Theft Auto Enters the Computer Age http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/LIFE/AUTO/AUTONEWS/t000096175.html Crime: Hackers are using cyberspace to obtain credit information and purchase luxury vehicles under assumed identities. By SCOTT GLOVER, Times Staff Writer In a new twist on an old crime, computer-savvy thieves have begun hacking into credit files and fabricating drivers' licenses, then walking into car dealerships and buying luxury cars under assumed identities, authorities said. After putting about $10,000 down for a new $120,000 Mercedes-Benz, authorities say, the thief then drives off the lot, leaving behind a commission-happy salesperson. Within a week, they say, the car will most likely be in a container bound for resale on foreign shores. "The problem is growing on a monthly basis," said John Bryan, a Los Angeles County sheriff's captain who runs a regional anti-car-theft unit. Bryan estimated that members of his Taskforce for Regional Autotheft Prevention, or TRAP, arrested about 60 people in 1997 who were running such scams. One of last year's victims was Los Angeles County Supervisor Yvonne Brathwaite Burke and her husband, William. In her case, Burke said a con artist took her name from the newspaper and paid a Georgia jeweler to run a credit check on her to obtain more information. She said the man then obtained a driver's license in William Burke's name and went on a spending spree. Using the Burkes' credit information, the man bought four Yamaha WaveRunner personal water vehicles and a BMW and tried to purchase a Mercedes-Benz and Ford Thunderbird. "We were getting bills in the mail every day," Burke said. "It was driving me crazy." She said the man was finally caught when he brought the BMW back to the dealership to have a trailer hitch installed so he could pull the WaveRunner behind the car. In another case last year, authorities said a man established a dummy real estate company to obtain personal credit histories, then used the information to make more than $1 million in fraudulent purchases, including several cars. Bryan said another scam involved fraudulent applications for car purchases at a San Gabriel Valley dealership. In that case, investigators seized eight cars and believe as many as 40 more were purchased and illegally sold. The thieves generally don't shop for bargains either, Bryan said. "They go for Mercedeses, BMWs, Lexuses, you name it." Bryan said the thieves are typically well-dressed--sometimes even in suits--and have a calm demeanor as they "shop" for a car. "They walk in there looking like they can afford it," he said. "They know what they're doing." Bryan said the average price of a stolen car is about $60,000, and that most of those who have been arrested are suspected of stealing numerous cars. The thieves usually make tens of thousands of dollars' profit on a single sale. Because cases are time-consuming and difficult to prove, Bryan said, an offender is often charged with only one theft. The crimes could result in several charges, including grand theft auto and credit card fraud, punishable by a minimum of three years in prison, according to a spokesman for the district attorney's office. Popular markets for the stolen vehicles include China, numerous republics of the former Soviet Union and the United Arab Emirates, police said. People who have had their identities stolen and used to purchase the cars are not liable, Bryan said. Burke said, even though she was in a position to put pressure on authorities to solve the case, she spent months trying to clean up her credit. "It was a nightmare," she said. "And it could happen to anybody." Copyright 1998 Los Angeles Times. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 05:47:48 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:47:48 +0800 Subject: ISPs now responsible for Pirated Material Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: lpma.la-ma.org: majordom set sender to owner-general at la-ma.org using -f X-Sender: dkrick at pobox3.bbn.com Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 07:29:38 -0500 To: general at la-ma.org From: Doug Krick Subject: ISPs now responsible for Pirated Material Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-general at la-ma.org Precedence: bulk http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28357,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh Summary: IF a local ISP doesn't register with the goverment, per a new law Clinton signed this week, the ISP can be held legally responsible for any pirated material that may be on their site. Doug --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From blancw at cnw.com Fri Nov 6 07:25:26 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:25:26 +0800 Subject: Holloween II: Microsoft Plugs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01be0992$d5438600$598195cf@blanc> I thought the name Vinod Vallopillil was familiar as of someone who was on cpunks for a while, in 1995. If my memory serves me well, I think it was him who for a while he had this idea of putting together some learning lectures/sessions locally on economics. I expressed interest, but then he left for school again (he was an intern at MS at the time). I checked the archives for his name, and found some of his posts on "credit card conventional wisdom". This is what was on his sig in a 1995: LibertarianismTelecommunicationsFreeMarketEnvi ronmentalismTechnologyCryptographyElectronicCa shInteractiveTelevisionEconomicsPhilosophyDigi talPrivacyAnarchoCapitalismRuggedIndividualism .. Blanc From KDAGUIO.ABASP1.ABAOF40 at aba.com Fri Nov 6 08:29:38 1998 From: KDAGUIO.ABASP1.ABAOF40 at aba.com (Kawika Daguio) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:29:38 +0800 Subject: Digicash bankruptcy Message-ID: Much of Digicash's problems came about as a result of its inventors worldview and dreams. These primary problems were caused by the same factors that created the impetus for their development. The business constraints that David Chaum attempted to impose on everyone interested in his technology included social theory driven restrictions. He really wanted to change not only how future payment systems worked but also wanted to change how current payment mechanisms and general social interaction and commerce worked in the future. I share some of his concerns, but do not find his solution satisfactory. I also remain unconvinced that point to point protection of sensitive information including credit cards numbers solves anything. Infosec as practiced in the WebWorld leaves much to be desired. Point to point encryption + weak and misleading naming (domain names) + near meaningless authentication + untrustworthy practices = slightly worse to slightly better than nothing at all. I am extremely patient (5-50 year time horizon) and remain hopeful that time, money, and proper attention by experienced risk and operations managers will resolve many of the weaknesses with current infrastructure and business models. Kawika >>> "Phillip Hallam-Baker" 11/05/98 09:07PM >>> Phil is right in much of what he says but in a couple of cases he is wrong. Regarding the 'vortex of buzz technologies', VRML, network computers and push are certainly not hot properties at the moment, neither is interactive TV - but the Web was designed as the antithesis of Interactive TV. The root failure of Interactive TV was the assumption that the world wanted to spend its time passively consuming the dross pumped out through a 1000 channel 120" TV which would dominate the home. I would also like to add Java onto the pile. Java today is simply what C++ should have been. It does not revolutionize the programming industry, it simply provides what some people think is an object oriented programming environment and removes some of the worst legacy clutter of C. Cryptographic payment systems are here - in the form of credit card transactions over SSL. The main problem with SET and its competitors is that SSL works a little too well. That is not to say that there is no future for SET. SSL and credit cards are unlikely to make the leap from the consumer market to the business to business market. SET provides an ideal platform to integrate the use of the credit card infrastructure for business payments. The other area where I would disagree is over protocols. HTTP is quite radically different to FTP in that it is a computer client to computer server protocol. The metaphor of FTP is rumaging through a filing cabinet. The HTTP and Web mechanism employs a locator. Admittedly there was nothing to stop a text mode Web being created in 1982 but nobody did so. What is true is that the time taken for Internet technologies to move to market is very slow. Much of the HTTP technology that just reached the market was proposed in '92 and '93. Finaly I have difficulty regarding Digicash as being all that socially responsible. Chaum's problems had a lot to do with the business terms he insisted on. What he had was a technology which allowed an improvement to a payment system. He imagined he had a monopoly on the only feasible solution. He was very baddly mistaken. The monopoly rents he demanded were more than the market was willing to pay for a working and deployed system - let alone for a patent license. Phill For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help". From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 08:31:57 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:31:57 +0800 Subject: IP: New Law Requires ISPs to Register & Rat Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com X-Sender: believer at telepath.com Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:11:11 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: New Law Requires ISPs to Register & Rat Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: list Reply-To: believer at telepath.com Source: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28357,00.html?st.ne.1.head Law enlists ISPs in piracy fight By John Borland Staff Writer, CNET News.com November 4, 1998, 5:30 p.m. PT A new set of federal regulations requires Internet service providers to register immediately with the U.S. government, lest they be held legally liable for pirated material that flows through their servers. The new rules, which went into effect yesterday, flow from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which was signed by President Clinton last week. The law shields ISPs from being sued for copyright infringement based on their subscribers' postings, so long as they register with the U.S. Copyright Office. The provision is the product of negotiations over the original copyright law, and was accepted reluctantly by service provider industry representatives. "This isn't what we would have wanted. It's a Washington approach to a simple kind of problem," said Dave McClure, executive director of the Association of Online Professionals, a trade group that represents ISPs. Copyright holders had complained that some ISPs were not responding to warnings about pirated material located on their servers, or were claiming ignorance even after being notified. "Copyright holders pushed for a requirement that a person actually be physically designated to receive information about infringement," McClure said. The new law fills a legal gap left by the passage of the Communications Decency Act in 1996. Under that law, ISPs cannot be held liable for slanderous or libelous material that is posted on their services. That provision, which has been tested several times in court already, specifically excludes copyright issues. The new regulations require each ISP to designate a point-person to receive complaints about copyright infringement, and to send that information to the federal copyright office along with a $20 filing fee. The person's name and contact information also must be displayed prominently on the ISP's Web site. The rules went into effect November 3. Any unregistered ISP can legally be held liable for pirated material on its site from now on. The Copyright Office rules are only an interim step in the new law's implementation. Regulators will draft permanent rules and host a public comment period later this year or early next year. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From privateplacement at royal.net Sat Nov 7 00:36:23 1998 From: privateplacement at royal.net (privateplacement at royal.net) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:36:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: securities - PRIVATE PLACEMENT WSG TECH, INC. Message-ID: <199811070810.CAA14003@mail.naviomar.com.mx> Opportunities in manufacturing and marketing patented products. This announcement is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of an offer to buy these securities. Sales will be made only by a final Offering Memorandum and only in states where these securities may be offered in compliance with the securities laws of such states. The final Offering Memorandum will NOT be available to residents of the states of Hawaii, Washington, or Wisconsin. PRIVATE PLACEMENT MEMORANDUM REGULATION - RULE 504 UNDER THE SECURITIES ACT OF 1933. 500,000 Shares of Common class non-voting stock. (Par Value $.001 Per Share) $2.00 Per Share with a 5,000 Share Minimum of WSG Tech, Inc. WSG Tech, Inc. (Company), a Nevada corporation was incorporated in Nevada in August 1998. The Company owns the manufacturing and distribution rights, or has the Options to the rights of several commercially viable patented products, and is negotiating for others. The firm also owns the option to purchase an established manufacturing firm with over twenty (20) years of continuous profitable performance. The completion of this purchase will give WSG Tech, Inc. complete control over the manufacturing, sales, distribution and fulfillment of its own products. It will also give the Company a core business of manufacturing for other clients as well as an experienced production and sales staff. The Company has recently concluded an Agreement with an International marketing firm, and is negotiating an agreement for the manufacture and distribution of its products in Europe and South America. The Company's corporate mailing address is P.O. Box 541732 Lake Worth, Florida 33454 USA The company is offering to the public an invitation to participate in the funding of the company. For a copy of the Offering Memorandum, you may contact the Company's investment consultant, e-mail us at privateopportunity at bigfoot.com Be sure to put "Send Me A Copy" in the Subject Line and include your name and address. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 08:57:16 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:57:16 +0800 Subject: Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: DIGSIG at LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:39:53 -0200 Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion Sender: Digital Signature discussion From: Ed Gerck Subject: Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies To: DIGSIG at LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies This is a comment to the article "Not for Identification Purposes" by Richard Sobel, of 8/12/98, and a reply by Jorge Cortell-Albert, all referenced at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filter/101598/letters.html >From the inherent conflict seen in these articles, it is quite apparent that one could profit from a new perspective when dealing with identification issues today. Not only because of historical examples of misuse or because the Clinton administration is proposing a national ID card that may compromise privacy, but because we need to harmonize needs with tools. Clearly, there is an escalating need to identify -- likewise, there is an increasingly easy access to information and massive cross-checking of data based on global indexes. Biometrics, contrary to expressed opinion such as Cortell-Albert's, is not self-secure and cannot protect what it forthrightly denies: privacy. One does not even have to recall the proverbial truck that hits the subject, in order to realize that biometrics is also perishable. In fact, biometrics just highlights the basic paradox of privacy versus security -- where one is asked to forfeit privacy in a rather permanent way in order to gain some transient level of security. Are identification and privacy antinomies, like freedom and slavery? Is there an unresolvable conflict between both security and privacy? Current expressed opinion, such as Sobel's and Cortell-Albert's, says "yes" to both questions. As we have no real solution within the current level of understanding, one needs a fresh look into identification and identity. To exercise the solution, Internet protocols can provide a good practical arena accessible to all and truly international -- thus, I will use it in this exposition as an example. However, it will be clear that I could likewise use anything else -- even the US Government's current proposal for a national ID card. Identification is often understood as an act of identifying, or of establishing an identity. Identity is usually defined as "the distinguishing character or personality of an individual" [1]. Of course, such definitions cannot be applied on the Internet. Any mention to "identity" or "identity authentication" on the Internet is a mere tag for something else, such as an individual's purported attribute. Certainly, without any physical contact with an individual or even without any way to directly verify it. It is simply not possible to speak of "identity" or "identification" as a dictionary defines it, over the Internet. All legal and technical studies that call for or depend on such equivalence are misleading. Any such "identity" or "identification" can be faked, repudiated or are specifically unwarranted (e.g. by commercial CAs) to relying-parties over the Internet. That the US INS accepts UK birth (naming) certificates in order to certify immigration status for its own policy of regulation, does not mean that the INS is acting to "confirm" the legitimacy of the name, or organise the UK namespace. So, the first conclusion is that acceptance of an identity by a recipient does not make that identification more veritable to others ... though it is often interpreted so, especially when a third document is issued by the recipient and publicly known. Sure, there is a bar on the standard of the {UK,...} authorities who the INS respects sufficiently for its own activities. But INS confirmation (or rather "use") confers no status on the original document unless the INS policy wished to make such representation explicit. Which would involve legal responsibilities that escalate like those that would derive from a blank signed cheque. Thus, this is also an unsolved problem in the 3D-world, outside the Internet. On 15th April 1997, The Daily Telegraph, a UK quality newspaper, reported on Alan Reeve [2] -- a convicted criminal and triple killer who was described as "friendly, caring, dependable and loving" by his fianc�e when he was arrested under false identity in Ireland. Clearly, the indeterminacy of "identity" on the 3D-world is itself a reason to doubt any extension of such credentials to the Internet [3,4]. Which is made worse by the often neglected fact that the certificate user (e.g., "relying-party") is not privy to the contract between the CA and the certificate subscriber [3]. Further, CAs effectively contradict any possible public rights that relying-parties might claim, by declaring in the CA's CPS (the governing law) that a certificate has no warranted content to relying-parties [3]. Moreover, on the Internet, we also need to identify hosts, routing, software, etc. -- not just humans. Thus, the basic Net disconnect is that the Internet is essentially that wire that goes to your computer! Anything else that you imagine is just this -- you imagine. Even if you receive a message that looks like mine, from my address, should you believe 100% it is mine? "Doubt until you have proof". Of course, the degree of proof required depends on what is at stake and what is your cost -- however, the best proof is to be considered the one that leaves the concerned parties with no doubts [cf. 2]. Of course, the law may require a higher degree of proof (eg, when buying firearms you cannot just do it over e-mail -- you need to present a legal identity, a legal connection to yourself and perhaps also an address as a further legal connection). The same disconnect happens in the 3D world, because who is to affirm that the presented ID card is the "right one"? Or, that the person depicted in the card is the "right one"? Who is Alan Reeve? However, as given in [5,6], there is an answer to the privacy/security paradox. And, practical tools that may help the Clinton administration (or, any government, company or individual) to decrease costs without resorting to privacy burdens over the puported beneficiaries. The answer begins by a question: What is "to identify"? The study shows that "to identify" is to look for connections. Thus, in identification we look for logical or natural connections -- we look for coherence. The work shows that not identity but coherence is the general metric for identification and deduces more than 64 basic types of identification. More coherence and more identification types mean stronger identification, even if anonymous. Identification can thus be understood not only in the sense of an "identity" connection, but in the wider sense of "any" connection. Which one to use is just a matter of protocol expression, need, cost and (very importantly) privacy concerns. A further benefit is that it allows clear definitions for a large number of new anonymous identification types, sorely needed on the Internet, for e-commerce and to decrease costs inccurred with fraud, in general, but without compromising one's privacy just to tank the car or buy a lunch. I note that even though motivated by the Internet, as a practical arena, the concepts reported in [5,6] can be applied to improve any identification method -- including the present proposal by the US Government. Cheers, Ed Gerck ============================================ References: [1] Merriam-Webster Dictionary, http:www.m-w.com [2] http://www.mcg.org.br/auth_b1.htm [3] http://www.mcg.org.br/certover.pdf [4] http://www.mcg.org.br/cert.htm [5] http://www.mcg.org.br/coherence.txt [6] http://www.mcg.org.br/coherence2.txt ______________________________________________________________________ Dr.rer.nat. E. Gerck egerck at novaware.cps.softex.br http://novaware.cps.softex.br --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From stuffed at stuffed.net Sat Nov 7 01:10:26 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED SAT NOV 7) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:10:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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Bob 818-559-3484 From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 6 09:20:37 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:20:37 +0800 Subject: FCC Wiretap Rule Message-ID: <199811061635.LAA24230@camel14.mindspring.com> FCC has issued its Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on CALEA wiretap provisions, approved on October 22: http://jya.com/fcc98282.htm (243K) Zipped: http://jya.com/fcc98282.zip (67K) Lengthy discussion of petitioners (CDT, EFF, telcos, others) objections and FBI's responses. From frissell at panix.com Fri Nov 6 09:59:04 1998 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:59:04 +0800 Subject: ISPs now responsible for Pirated Material In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811061720.MAA28321@mail1.panix.com> >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28357,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh > >Summary: IF a local ISP doesn't register with the goverment, per a new law >Clinton signed this week, the ISP can be held legally responsible for any >pirated material that may be on their site. > >Doug > "Register Communists -- Not ISPs" DCF From MusicBoulevard at specials.musicblvd.com Fri Nov 6 10:15:19 1998 From: MusicBoulevard at specials.musicblvd.com (MusicBoulevard) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:15:19 +0800 Subject: ** Specials from MusicBoulevard Message-ID: <199811061725.MAA07921@butkus> ****************************************************** Music Boulevard is excited to announce: * This Week's New Release Lineup * The Essential Time Life Christmas Collection CD * Our New Music Gear Department (CD Racks, Headphones, and more... ) * An incredible new album from Burt Bacharach & Elvis Costello - Painted From Memory ****************************************************** Dear Cypher, Music Boulevard has some amazing new offers headed your way. 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Get ready to celebrate the holiday season with The Time-Life Treasury of Christmas http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/3752_43_627350 This exclusive 2-CD collection features over 40 timeless recordings by the greatest singers of our era. We also have a new Holiday Music Department at: http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/3752_20_hol -------------------------------------------------------------- Our new music gear department is now open for business ... Music Boulevard is proud to announce our new Music Gear Department, where you'll find CD cases, storage units, cleaners, shelving, headphones, electronics and much more! http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/3752_20_acc -------------------------------------------------------------- And finally, we've got a great deal on Elvis Costello & Burt Bacharach's new album. One of the year's most acclaimed albums, Painted From Memory is now on sale. http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/3752_43_582448 It's the duo of the decade and they've joined forces in what critics are hailing as a pop masterpiece and an unparalleled musical event. (And its on sale today!) And remember our top 100 Sellers are ALWAYS on sale. http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/3752_0_lists/t100.txt We're very excited about this week's lineup, and hope you enjoy the great selection, service and convenience that's made us the #1 online music store. >From one music fan to another, Chris Hoerenz Store Manager http://www.musicblvd.com/ P.S. If, for any reason, you'd prefer not to receive future updates or announcements from Music Boulevard, you may reply to this email and type "unsubscribe" as the subject line of your reply to stop receiving emails. [94454-981105] From nobody at replay.com Fri Nov 6 10:23:18 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:23:18 +0800 Subject: don't use passwords as private keys (was Re: Using a password as a private key.) In-Reply-To: <199810312353.SAA23037@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199811061754.SAA22579@replay.com> John Young wrote: > Speaking of promo, we saw last night on the Free Congress site a reference > to a report titled "Cyhperpunks v. Cryptocrats: The Battle Over US Encryption > Standards," by Lisa S. Dean. Have you tried e-mailing Lisa? From JOABJ at delphi.com Fri Nov 6 11:14:48 1998 From: JOABJ at delphi.com (SECRET AGENT 66) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 03:14:48 +0800 Subject: Digicash bankruptcy Message-ID: <01J3USZFHLJ694XOBF@delphi.com> >The root failure of Interactive TV was the assumption >that the world wanted to spend its time passively consuming the dross >pumped out through a 1000 channel Actually, the failure of interactive tv was that the world was perfectly happy passively comsuming the dross pumped out through a 1000 channels. Probably explains the failure of digicash, too. joab From petro at playboy.com Fri Nov 6 11:17:21 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 03:17:21 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B24B@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: At 4:52 PM -0500 11/5/98, Matthew James Gering wrote: >> Robert Hettinga wrote: >> Further more, even in a free-market there will exist >> black markets. > >Provided you don't corrupt the meaning of free-market to include any >possible black market, then yes, there will *always* be a black market. It >can be made rather insignificant however. Assuming your definition of "free market" is "a market without regulation", you can't have a black market in a free market since a black market is trade in violation of regulations. In other words, a Black market is when you trade either illegal goods illegally, or legal goods illegally. If there are no illegal goods, and there is no regulations limiting trading, then the black market cannot exist. Unless I am missing some context here. >> The aspect of a free-market is that there is no consequence from >> such actions (unless you want to admit to allowing corporations to have >> their own hit squads). > >And again you pervert the meaning of free market. I'm tired arguing that >subject with you, go read a book. Remember that line from _A_Fish_Called_Wanda_ about apes and philosopy? -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From info at hot-stock.com Sat Nov 7 05:27:16 1998 From: info at hot-stock.com (info at hot-stock.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 05:27:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: ADV: Hot-Stock Discovers Emerging Entertainment Company Message-ID: <199811071811.NAA16377@mars.cyber-website.com> To be removed from our mailing list, simply reply with "Remove" in the subject line. J.P. Morgan, the world famous banker at the American Bankers Convention in 1903 was asked what was the secret of his success. He replied "Opportunity passed me every single second of my life, but I was perceptive enough to take advantage of these opportunities." The time is always now! Companies providing live streaming video content such as Broadcast.Com have had valuations as high as one billion dollars. Alternative Entertainment is a live streaming video content provider for Adult related Internet sites. Adult related sites on the Internet are not only profitable but represent the largest segment of E-Commerce and generate 1.2 billion in annual revenues. Visit http://www.hot-stock.com for full details. Alternative Entertainment (OTC BB : BOYS) Shares Outstanding 3,013,790 Shares Public Float 980,000 Number Shareholders 790 Approved by NASD for Trading October 7, 1998 Visit http://www.hot-stock.com for full details. COMPANY OVERVIEW Alternative Entertainment, Inc. (the "Company") is engaged in the Adult Media and Entertainment Industry. Specifically, the acquisition, development and operation of Upscale Gentlemen�s Clubs and advanced on-line media for E-Commerce on Internet Sites. The Company plans a national chain of Upscale Gentlemen's Clubs with the focus on business and professional male patrons. The main floor, which caters to patrons 25 to 39 years of age, will incorporate an evolving theme concept conducive to a "party atmosphere" and will operate under the trade name BOYS TOYS. Private club facilities of the Boardroom Restaurant will target individuals ages 40 to 65 and offer full service dining, an extensive cigar lounge and a vast selection of premium wines and liquor. The clubs will enable the Company to facilitate onsite film production and live video streaming of the female entertainers as content to the on-line community. Initially the live content will provide revenues via E-Commerce on Company owned Web Sites. Such content will later be repackaged and distributed through Webmasters and individual owners of the 45,000 established Adult Sites on the Internet. The Company has an extremely strong management team comprised of several key executives, including the president, of the leading management company within the Gentlemen�s Club Industry. The management team has over 100 years of combined knowledge of the Industry. INDUSTRY HIGHLIGHTS $4 Billion a year Gentlemen's Club Industry - 25% pretax margins 3,618,000 average yearly revenue per upscale club - $488 sales per sq. ft. 36% of all businessmen entertain their clientele at Gentlemen�s Clubs $1.2 Billion a year Internet Adult Sites - 70% pretax margins Media content providers are basically non-existent Consolidation play exists for both segments of the industry SELECTIVE FINANCIAL HIGHLIGHTS The Company has internally raised $2,000,000 to date through a combination of equity and convertible debt. The Company has a San Francisco property (15,000 sq. ft.) under construction and an option to purchase two additional clubs. Once again visit http://www.hot-stock.com for full details. --- Disclaimer --- This material is being provided by Hot-Stock, an electronic newsletter paid by the issuer for publishing the information contained in this report. Alternative Entertainment, Inc. has paid a consideration of 5,000 shares of common stock of Alternative Entertainment, Inc. to Hot-Stock as payment for the publication of the information contained in this report. Hot-Stock and its affiliates have agreed not to sell the common stock received as payment for its services until November 1, 1998, which date is 15 days from the initial dissemination of this report. After such date, Hot-Stock may sell such shares. Because Hot-Stock is paid for its services, there is an inherent conflict of interest in Hot-Stock�s statements and opinions and such statements and opinions cannot be considered independent. The information contained in this publication is for informational purposes only, and not to be construed as an offer to sell or solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Hot-Stock makes no representation or warrant relating to the validity of the facts presented nor does Hot-Stock represent or warrant that all material facts necessary to make an investment decision are presented above. All statements of opinions are those of Hot-Stock. Hot-Stock relies exclusively on information gathered from public filings on featured companies, as well as, in certain circumstances, interviews conducted by Hot-Stock of management of featured companies. Investors should not rely solely on the information contained in this publication. Rather, investors should use the information contained in this publication as a starting point for conducting additional research on the featured companies in order to allow the investor to form his or her own opinion regarding the featured companies. Factual statements contained in this publication are made as of the date stated and they are subject to change without notice. Hot-Stock is not a registered investment adviser, broker or a dealer. Investment in the companies reviewed is speculative and extremely high-risk and may result in the loss of some or all of any investment made in Alternative Entertainment, Inc. This publication contains forward-looking statements that are subject to risk and uncertainties that could cause results to differ materially from those set forth in the forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements represent the judgment of Alternative Entertainment, Inc. as of the date of this publication. The Company disclaims any intent or obligation to update these forward-looking statements. From mgering at ecosystems.net Fri Nov 6 14:07:03 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 06:07:03 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B258@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Matthew James Gering wrote: > >Provided you don't corrupt the meaning of free-market to include > >any possible black market, then yes, there will *always* be a > >black market. It can be made rather insignificant however. Petro responded: > Assuming your definition of "free market" is "a market without > regulation", you can't have a black market in a free market > since a black market is trade in violation of regulations. Like I said, if you don't corrupt the meaning of free market. Laissez Faire capitalism is based on a concept of individual rights. Therefore the proper role of any government (in a libertarian state) or individual/social institution (in rational anarchy) is to protect individual rights (life, liberty, property), and act as an objective framework for retributive force. Therefore, any transaction that violates individual rights is immoral (if not illegal) and constitutes a black market. e.g. assassinations, ransom, stolen goods, extortion, slavery, etc. To create a anarcho-capitalist definition of free market where everything goes and there is no concept of individual rights is as immoral and perverse as the statist concepts that similarly have no concept of individual rights (fascism, communism). Matt From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 6 16:10:26 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:10:26 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811062338.RAA00510@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:34:34 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Assuming your definition of "free market" is "a market without > regulation", you can't have a black market in a free market since a black > market is trade in violation of regulations. Actualy a black market is usualy goods gotten through theft or other illegal means, not necessarily anything related to how or what is sold. If you don't corrupt free-market to include legitimizing theft as a viable market strategy then yes, you can in fact have a black market in a free-market. Let's consider auto-theft. The issue isn't that you can't buy the car through legitimate means, it just means you have to have more resources than you have. So what do you do? You find somebody whose stolen a vehicle and is willing to sell it to you at a discount. > In other words, a Black market is when you trade either illegal > goods illegally, or legal goods illegally. Too strict and unrealistic a definition of black market. > If there are no illegal goods, and there is no regulations limiting > trading, then the black market cannot exist. Of course not since we've now legitimized theft and murder with your definition. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 6 16:11:27 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:11:27 +0800 Subject: Grounding (fwd) Message-ID: <3643312D.5C2@lsil.com> OMYGAWD! I can see that I'll have to give up soon. > The solutions to the wave equation inside the cavity have a real part ~0 > in the exponent. *** It's not a question of a Schroedingers Wave Equation, it's a question of Maxwell's Equations. *** Yeah I've got my old copy of Jackson. MTW too, for all the good it did me. Maxwell's equations can be used to form a wave equation too. I only bring up the Schroedinger equation because the solutions to simple particle-in-a-box examples are easy to generate and easy to visualize. Anyone who even began a decent Physics program should have done many of these. The probability function for the Quantum example *looks like* the amplitude for the EM example...analogy is a good tool. > The boundary condition at the inside surface of the > copper box splices together the solutions in the cavity and inside the > conductor. *** What conductor? The shell is equipotential unless you're trying to play head games with me so there follows there can be no current flow through it except radialy to the outside of the sphere. *** DC, Yes. AC, things are happening. To solve the diffeq's for an EM wave incident on a conducting surface you have to make the solutions !inside! the conductor match the solutions outside the conductor. Only if the conductor is *perfect* does your assumption of nothing going on inside the conductor make sense. BTW - the skin depth for Cu at 100MHz is about 0.00026". The skin depth is proportional to f^(-0.5). In brief, here's what happens to the wave incident on a copper sheet: Wave is incident on surface Most of the wave is reflected the better the conductor, the more is reflected the portion that is not reflected is attenuated in the conductor ( loss ) any amplitude on the other surface of the sheet radiates energy. It should be obvious that, if the conductor is good, there will be very little amplititude inside the conductor, low loss reflection. Further, that 4 mils of Cu should provide ~80 dB loss in even the tiny amount that is not reflected at the inner surface. At 100MHz. I haven't solved this system for many years and I'm not inclined to go back to it now. Take my word for it : a little RF can get through a copper sheet but only a *very* little. It's the finite conductivity that alters the simple scenario. *** Let's walk through it using your model.... The spark gap generates sparks and that builds up free electrons in the space inside the sphere (whether it is gas filled or a vacuum is irrelevant). As that charge builds up it will be all of one type, electrons. Now the electrons repel each other and therefor move in a circular motion with the spark gap as the center. They strike the surface of the sphere and tunnel through to the outside surface where they reside. The amount of charge at any one point is related to the curvature of the surface at that point. Since a sphere is constant curvature the charge will be evenly distributed. It will continue to build up so long as you supply power to the spark gap. In an ideal world it will get bigger and bigger. In the real world at some point insulation breaks down and normal current flow takes place. *** Wild! Forget all this, this patchwork of pieces doesn't hold together as a description of the physical problem. If it helps, forget about the spark gap. Waves waves waves. Start with a wave packet in the box. Don't worry about how it got there. Worry about keeping it there. Best regards Jim, Mike From pleontks at hotmail.com Fri Nov 6 16:14:30 1998 From: pleontks at hotmail.com (John C) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:14:30 +0800 Subject: Fwd: How true this is Message-ID: <19981106233653.27724.qmail@hotmail.com> it's rare that i do this... >>Perfect Days >> >> >>The Perfect Day For HER >> >>8:15 Wakeup to hugs & kisses >>8:30 Weigh in 5lb lighter than yesterday >>8:45 Breakfast in bed, fresh squeezed orange juice & croissants >>9:15 Soothing hot bath with fragrant lilac bath oil >>10:00 Light work out at club with handsome, funny personal trainer >>10:30 Facial, manicure, shampoo & comb out >>12:00 Lunch with best friend at outdoor cafe >>12:45 Notice ex-boyfriends wife, she has gained 30lbs >>13:00 Shopping with friends, unlimited credit >>15:00 Nap >>16:00 3 dozen roses delivered by florist, card is from secret admirer >>16:15 Light work out at club, followed by gentle massage >>17:30 Pick out outfit for dinner, primp before mirror >>19:30 Candlelight dinner for two followed by dancing >>22:00 Hot shower (alone) >>22:30 Make love >>23:00 Pillow talk, light touching & cuddling >>23:15 Fall asleep in his big strong arms >> >> >>The perfect day for HIM >> >>6:00 Alarm >>6:15 Blowjob >>6:30 Massive shit, while reading sports section of paper >>7:00 Breakfast, Fillet mignon & eggs, toast & coffee >>7:30 Limo arrives >>7:45 Vodka Bloody Mary en route to airport >>8:15 Private Jet to Augusta, Georgia (en route Coffee, Cigar & Wall >>St Journal) >>9:30 Limo to Augusta National Golf Club >>9:45 Front nine holes at Augusta (2 under par) >>11:45 Lunch, 2 dozen oysters on the half shell, 3 Hienekens >>12:15 Blowjob >>12:30 Back nine holes at Augusta (4 under par) >>14:15 Limo back to airport (Vodka Martini) >>14:30 Private Jet, Augusta to Nassau, Bahamas (nap) >>15:15 Late afternoon fishing excursion with all female (topless) crew >>16:30 Land world record light tackle Marlin (1249lbs) >>17:00 Jet back home, massage & hand job en route by naked Elle >>Macpherson >>18:45 Shit, shave & shower >>19:00 Watch CNN newsflash: Clinton resigns, Hillary and Al Gore farm >>animal sex video released. >>19:30 Dinner, Lobster appetizers, Dom Perignon (1963), 20oz New York >>Steak >>21:00 Wild Turkey & Cuban cigar >>21:30 Sex with three women >>23:00 Massage & Jacuzzi >>23:45 Bed (alone) >>23:50 12 second, 4 note fart, dog leaves room >>23:55 Sleep ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lharrison at dueprocess.com Fri Nov 6 16:55:24 1998 From: lharrison at dueprocess.com (Lynne L. Harrison) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:55:24 +0800 Subject: Quick, Dear -- Beat Me In-Reply-To: <000401be087d$55f97aa0$3b8195cf@blanc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981106193055.0082bdd0@pop.mhv.net> At 10:47 AM 11/5/98 -0500, Petro wrote: > >At 12:08 AM -0500 11/5/98, Blanc wrote: >>From Duncan Frissell: >> >>I just went to the bank I do business with this week to open a new account. >>They wanted my social security number, (which they actually already have on >>record), and during a search on her handy database, the Customer Assistance >>clerk informed me that there was another person in Florida using the same >>number. >> >>>report and advice to notify the Social Security dept about it. I don't >>really >>want to discuss it with them. Think it would be to my benefit to just >>leave it >>alone? Probbly not. > If they are using your name as well, they could be damaging your >credit rating. Absolutely, and it is not limited to credit cards. It would pop up if, for example, you buy a new car. If your rating does become negatively affected, the creditor could care less about your explanation of some Joe Anonymous using your SSN. His first question would be why didn't you report it when you found out. Whatever credit you'd be applying for would get unbelievably mired in beaucracy - something you wouldn't need. Additionally, it can mushroom in other areas as well. This other person is getting credit for the number of years that you have been employed. Also, if s/he applies for SSD or SSI (disability or supplemental security income), you will be impacted upon. Some states require SSN's for driving licenses, and there's a myriad of potential problems here as well. Tax returns can potentially become a complication. And the list goes on.... All in all, you should seriously reconsider your decision of not reporting the problem. *********************************************************** Lynne L. Harrison, Esq. | "The key to life: Poughkeepsie, New York | - Get up; mailto:lharrison at dueprocess.com | - Survive; http://www.dueprocess.com | - Go to bed." *********************************************************** DISCLAIMER: I am not your attorney; you are not my client. Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 6 17:07:36 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:07:36 +0800 Subject: Grounding (fwd) Message-ID: <199811070039.SAA00913@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:26:05 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka > Subject: Re: Grounding (fwd) > Yeah I've got my old copy of Jackson. MTW too, for all the good it did > me. Maxwell's equations can be used to form a wave equation too. I only > bring up the Schroedinger equation because the solutions to simple > particle-in-a-box examples are easy to generate and easy to visualize. The problem is we're not discussing a particle in a box. We're discussing the statistical mechanical behaviour of a group of particles. Apples and oranges. One, you're scale of distance between the two is off by orders of magnitude. Secondly, you're considering an electron carrying a photon as a single wavicle, it ain't. It's a superposition of several wavicles (3 quarks and a lepton to be exact under the standard model). Thirdly, you're trying to model a group of particles as a single instance of Schroedengers Wave equation, a big no no. Fourthly, you're failing to take into account the interactions between the particles and those consequences because of mass charge, which after all is the engine that drives this model. In reference to your particle-in-a-box model, the point you seem to miss is that the scale of the box is on the order of a few Planck distances. That behaviour is grossly different than a ball 10 in. in diameter filled with a gas of electrons (and potentialy protons if it's not a vacuum) all carrying short-wavelength photons around. > DC, Yes. AC, things are happening. Where did the AC come from? We're talking about a spark gap that is only going to emit electrons *and* is run by a battery (it's your baby). Where the hell do I buy an AC battery pray tell? Where? Under your example there is no mass charge flow because ground is irrelevant. So we're left with only the gas like behaviours. Now it's clear that the individual particle paths are going to be modelled via a drunkards walk. So, where does this coherent flow come from? If there is a flow it implies, because of the behaviour of like/dislike charges, that there is a difference in charge. > To solve the diffeq's for an EM wave incident on a conducting surface > you have to make the solutions !inside! the conductor match the > solutions outside the conductor. Only if the conductor is *perfect* does > your assumption of nothing going on inside the conductor make sense. What the hell are you talking about?.... Here's what we're discussing: A generator emits electrons which carry a negative charge. These electrons each also carry a photon of some quantity. Like charges repel. When a photon strikes an atom it will be absorbed if it's wavelength matches one of the Bohr radii. This may cause one or more secondary photons to be emitted as a result. The assumption was the spark gap is in the center of the ball. Because the spark gaps emission of electrons is random the resultant cloud of particles can be modelled as a gas that is expanding from a point source. The expansion is driven by the repelling effect of the charges. This causes the the particles at time tau to, on average - remember we're talking statistical mechanics here, expand at an equal rate, in effect forming a bubble of particles coherent with tau. That rate is usualy related to k * sqrt ( s ). As the charges expand some will emit photons. Some of the atoms in the shell will emit photons. Some of each will absorb photons. At some point (tau + delta) the charge impacts the shell. This will in effect increase the charge of the shell by 1 -e. Now, by Gauss's Law, this charge in the gas will induce an opposite charge on the inside surface of the globe. Unlike charges attract. Therefore the gas of electrons are attracted to the inside surface. Now since the globe is neutral it must follow by conservation of charge that there is a negative charge equal to the charge held in the gas on the *OUTSIDE* of the ball. This is in addition to the charge that steadily builds up in the shell as the electrons accrete over time. This can be modelled with an integral of the flow rate of the current in the battery (it after all is Coulombs/s). It's not too hard (k * I). (I'm not going to go into what happens as the charge on the shell builds up as we're discussing here the applicability of wave equations as a reliable model). So what do you get? A hell of a charge that will go bang at some point when some insulation give way. See: Physics J. Orear ISBN 0-02-389460-1 pp. 304 "Electrical Induction" He uses your exact model except for the tether. It's a classic in Freshman Physics and science museums. > BTW - the skin depth for Cu at 100MHz is about 0.00026". The skin depth > is proportional to f^(-0.5). So what if the electron gives it's photon up to another which causes it to bounce around through the Cu lattice till it gets to the other side knocking an electron free (conservation of momentum) or emitting a free photon (which is what we're *REALLY* talking about reducing with TEMPEST - you could think of it as cooling the laptop at rf frequencies if you like, you could model it with a spin-glass based cellular automaton). It's called charge migration and there are also effects at high voltage which is called charge tunneling. If you examine the literature of Japanese hi-v researchers they have become adept at causing ball lightening to tunnel through insulators. It's pretty interesting. There are also quite a few cases where the inducement fails and the result is a broken ceramic plate because of the heating effects. [rest deleted] ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kkemp at magicnet.net Fri Nov 6 18:57:55 1998 From: kkemp at magicnet.net (Kevin) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:57:55 +0800 Subject: Hey there................... Message-ID: <419.436105.76927211kkemp@magicnet.net> Get yor own DotCom ! or transfer yours now ! FREE SETUP, FREE TRANSFERS, HOSTING INCLUDED ! Digital Global Networks =>> NO SPOOKY HIDDEN COSTS ! =>> On the net since it's birth. ALL DOMAIN HOSTING AND SETUP IS INCLUDED: ONLY $15.95/mo. Call NOW, on our toll-free registration line. It's FREE ===> 1-800-549-6542 8am-8pm est. or 407-622-2172 For ONLY $15.95/mo. You receive ALL of these services and MORE ! 1. Your own domain name www.AnyNameYouChoose.com 2. Starter 6pg website template with graphics. 3. 20 megs of quality triple DS3 (digital) webspace. 4. Total FTP access 24/7 5. POP E-mail box. 6. Unlimited e-mail addresses at AnyNameYouChoose.com 7.TOLL FREE! WARM BODY helpline with no hold buttons! 1-800-549-6542 8. 100megs of traffic/day! 9. Support forum with all the tools you will ever need from HTML to Perl. 10. Guaranteed 99% uptime. 11. Ongoing pledge to price freeze! 12. FREE SETUP ! NO HIDDEN COSTS ! 13. FREE TRANSFERS ! 14. One of the oldest and largest hosting and network providers in the world. Don't miss this 1-time 10-day opportunity from Digital Global Networks ! CALL NOW It's FREE====> 1-800-549-6542 or 407-622-2172 *Front page support available ! **E-commerce, secure server service available ! ***Webmaster accounts available ! *****This is the only message you will receive. Your address has been automatically deleted. CALL NOW It's FREE====> 1-800-549-6542 or 407-622-2172 From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 6 19:35:45 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:35:45 +0800 Subject: ASHCROFT 2000 RIP? In-Reply-To: <19981107005439.30238.qmail@listbox.com> Message-ID: At 6:04 PM -0500 on 11/6/98, National Review DC wrote: > ASHCROFT 2000 RIP? > Gov. Mel Carnahan (D., Mo.) has announced he will challenge Sen. John > Ashcroft's (R., Mo.) re-election. It's an ominous move for the freshman > senator's presidential bid. Sen. Phil Gramm had a tougher race than > usual following his disastrous 1996 run for the presidency, and he was > running against a political nobody. Gov. Carnahan is politically > formidable, and could give Ashcroft a run for his money even without the > distractions, missed votes, and potential embarrassments of a > presidential campaign. Ashcroft now must worry about the Dornan effect. > > On the other hand, Ashcroft would be able to convert any funds raised in > a presidential campaign to his Senate race if he lost the former. But > handicappers already question how much he can raise. ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jkthomson at bigfoot.com Fri Nov 6 21:38:35 1998 From: jkthomson at bigfoot.com (jkthomson) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:38:35 +0800 Subject: verisign digital id's for outlook Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981106210608.00956390@dowco.com> A quick question for all you security-savvy people. Our IT instructor has asked the class to sign up for verisigns' 60-day trial of a class 1 digital id. pfaugh. give me a copy of PGP anyday! at least I can (easily) take my keys with me! I also understand that a well (poorly?) written activeX applet can grab my key basically without my knowledge (to speak nothing of the other myriad holes in win98/95) My question is, where the hell is the private key kept on the users box? How is it protected against attack? I had to voice my displeasure with the instructor that I could not take the ID with me on a floppy so that the night class would not have potential access, but got the usual 'it is secure enough, let it be' attitude. Thanks in advance for any information! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- james 'keith' thomson www.bigfoot.com/~ceildh jkthomson:C181 991A 405C EAFB 2C46 79B5 B1DC DB78 8196 122D [06.07.98] ceildh :1D79 59AF ED75 5945 6003 8240 DA34 ACCA 9DE4 6BC9 [05.14.98] ICQ:354111 at pgp.mit.edu ...and former sysop of tnbnog BBS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "You shouldn't overestimate the IQ of crooks." - Stuart Baker, of NSA explaining why crooks and terrorists who are smart enough to use data encryption would be stupid enough to choose DES ======================================================================= From mah248 at nyu.edu Fri Nov 6 22:46:00 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:46:00 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B258@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3643E9AE.24027635@nyu.edu> Matthew James Gering wrote: > > Laissez Faire capitalism is based on a concept of individual rights. > Therefore the proper role of any government (in a libertarian state) or > individual/social institution (in rational anarchy) is to protect individual > rights (life, liberty, property), and act as an objective framework for > retributive force. No government can protect individual rights. The only way one could do so would be if it: (a) could predict the future, and act to prevent certain futures from happening; or (b) it controls every aspect and motion of each individual's life, thereby ensuring that nobody steps out of line. Unfortunately, the first scenario is impossible, given the current state of the art, and the second results in the complete extinction of individual rights in the name of safety (which is the ultimate goal of the current powers that be, it seems). All any state can do is threaten to "retaliate" against (why not just say "attack") people who disobey its edicts. In order for this threat to be credible, the state must wield sufficient power to kill any individual (or group of individuals) who would stand against it. If it does not have this power, it cannot govern. The problem is, if it does have this power, then there is nothing to stop those individuals in control of the state from violating the individual rights of its citizens. As often seems the case today, for example. The system you suggest, which I assume consists of a state with a "minimal" amount of power, run by enlightened people, is in a state of extremely unstable equilibrium (if it is indeed in equilibrium). If it wields just enough power to enforce its will, that power can be used by evil men to increase its power. Just look at what happened after the Constitutional coup took place in the fledgling USA. Remember the Whiskey Rebellion? When we lost the Articles of Confederation, we were taking the first steps down the road to the tyranny of today. The anti-federalists predicted this, although they sorely underestimated how far it would go --assuming that it would be stopped by another revolution. The minimalist state has been tried. It lasted less than a decade before it started turning into what we have today, and what was left of its spirit died with the war of northern aggression. The only truly free system is one in which there is no body of people calling itself a government which can enforce its will over the individual. The only way people can seem to be free living under such a body is entirely dependent upon the good will of their masters, and this is a shaky assumption to make. > Therefore, any transaction that violates individual rights is immoral (if > not illegal) and constitutes a black market. How about: Any action that involves the initiation of force against the property of another person (the person belongs to himself, of course) is immoral. This neatly tidies up the obvious question of exactly what "individual rights" are. There's a partial list of them in the bill of rights, but it is not complete, by its own admission. Furthermore, the above definition excludes such dubious rights as the "right to an education", the "right to welfare", etc. > e.g. assassinations, ransom, stolen goods, extortion, slavery, etc. All of the above involve the initiation (or threat of initiation) of force. Hence they are immoral, and the victims and any bystanders would be morally justified in using force against the initiators. Of course, this would not be true in a governed society, where the state must hold a monopoly on the use of force, if only to maintain its own position. Much less efficient. Besides, putting a subset of the population to the task of defining what is and isn't moral leads to such inanities as "homosexuality is immoral", "premarital sex/underage sex is immoral", and "ingesting certain compounds is immoral." We've all got our pet peeves. Would you like to live under mine? Would I like to live under yours? Can I trust you to be tolerant? Can I trust your successors, 20 years from now? Can my descendants trust subsequent successors, 200 years later? Experience tends to show the contrary. > To create a anarcho-capitalist definition of free market where everything > goes and there is no concept of individual rights is as immoral and perverse > as the statist concepts that similarly have no concept of individual rights > (fascism, communism). The anarcho-capitalist free market is not one where "everything goes," and there is indeed a strong concept of individual rights. What is moral and not moral is defined by society on an individual basis. The first and only rule is: No one has the right to initiate force against another or another's property. This is the fundamental and only "social contract" we make. Anyone who disagrees with this is obviously antisocial, and nobody's going to want to live with him (or allow him to continue living, if he attacks someone). >From this, morality follows. If X does Y to Z, and if Y is perceived as immoral, then X is not going to be very popular with Z or anyone else, unless he can make amends. No one will want to trade with him, be near him, etc. This is a very strong motive to avoid doing immoral things. If Y is really nasty, such as the initiation of force, then X is going to be in *deep* trouble. Z may well shoot him out of self defense, and even if he survives his action, he'll have to pay a *lot* of restitution before people will trust him again, if ever. Law enforcement by ostracism --read L. Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach", for a more detailed description. In summary, a free market is far from being an immoral market. In fact, it is the most moral market there is, since there is no state which holds the "right" to initiate force. Regards, Michael Hohensee From apf2 at apf2.com Sat Nov 7 00:51:51 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:51:51 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981107091528.00922620@apf2.com> >From: Jim Choate >Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) > >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:34:34 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone >> (fwd) > >> In other words, a Black market is when you trade either illegal >> goods illegally, or legal goods illegally. > >Too strict and unrealistic a definition of black market. I would add the clause illegal goods (apparently) legally. This covers the case where stolen property is moved through legitimate channels. Even if the government doesn't restrict and legitimize the channels there must be restrictions on theft and inappropriate acquisition (fraud) of goods (and services) otherwise the result is not free-market, but rather barbarism and brute force rule. Under the "free-for-all" definition of free market, the final result would actually be slavery (since you wouldn't produce the items that I keep stealing from you unless I hold a gun to your head), and war (in order to get resources I can pay or I can steal, since I don't like to pay, I'll just get a bigger army and steal it from you). Sounds drastic? There are a few examples today in the parts of Africa controlled by warlords. > >> If there are no illegal goods, and there is no regulations limiting >> trading, then the black market cannot exist. > >Of course not since we've now legitimized theft and murder with your >definition. > Nothing is EVER black and white. And free-market can never be 100% free or it will cease to be a market. APF From apf2 at apf2.com Sat Nov 7 00:52:14 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:52:14 +0800 Subject: Quick, Dear -- Beat Me Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981107090029.008caa20@apf2.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1264 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 7 09:43:03 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:43:03 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811071710.LAA02112@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 01:33:18 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) > No government can protect individual rights. That isn't a reasonable statement. There is nothing in the definition or application of 'government' or 'individual rights' that preclude this. The issue becomes in a practical sense how the practitioners of a government system respect individual rights. If they are willing to do away with them to protect them (as we seem to be moving toward in this country) then of course there are no individual rights. Of course, this implies there are no collective rights either. > The only way one could do > so would be if it: (a) could predict the future, and act to prevent > certain futures from happening; or (b) it controls every aspect and > motion of each individual's life, thereby ensuring that nobody steps out > of line. What has that to do with protecting individual rights? Clarify please. > All any state can do is threaten to "retaliate" against (why not just > say "attack") people who disobey its edicts. In order for this threat > to be credible, the state must wield sufficient power to kill any > individual (or group of individuals) who would stand against it. If it > does not have this power, it cannot govern. This is a quaint and completely artificial distinction. > citizens. As often seems the case today, for example. We also see quite a few situations where the opposite occurs as well. > The system you suggest, which I assume consists of a state with a > "minimal" amount of power, run by enlightened people, is in a state of Anyone who assumes noble oblige is an idiot. There are no enlightened people, intelligence and wealth no more prepare an individual for a position in government than they prepare them for anything else. Rich/intelligent people don't make less mistakes than those who aren't. > extremely unstable equilibrium (if it is indeed in equilibrium). If it If you're talking of Hayek's equilibrium, it's nothing more than a bastardization of a thermodynamics term to represent the status quo. Equilabrium in the economic sense simply means that people do today what they did yesterday. In general they do about as often as they don't. > wields just enough power to enforce its will, that power can be used by > evil men to increase its power. Evil? Where did religion come into this at? > Just look at what happened after the Constitutional coup took place in > the fledgling USA. Remember the Whiskey Rebellion? When we lost the > Articles of Confederation, we were taking the first steps down the road > to the tyranny of today. The anti-federalists predicted this, although > they sorely underestimated how far it would go --assuming that it would > be stopped by another revolution. There have been several since then. The Civil War and the civil rights movement in the 60's are two good examples (on the opposite end of the 'use-of-violence' scales). > The minimalist state has been tried. No, that was a non-federalist state where the individual states acted as individuals in a collective. Because of the collective nature of the state governments it didn't work. A minimalist state would be anarchy. > The only truly free system is one in which there is no body of people > calling itself a government which can enforce its will over the > individual. The only way people can seem to be free living under such a > body is entirely dependent upon the good will of their masters, and this > is a shaky assumption to make. No it isn't the only way. The only way is to clearly define the duties of each level of government and build a system of checks and balances that prohibit them from moving outside their domains. A good first attempt at this was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (in particular 9 & 10). The problem is that there are individuals who don't want to be limited in their authority. It's a person problem not a government problem. > How about: Any action that involves the initiation of force against the > property of another person (the person belongs to himself, of course) is > immoral. Morality? Why do you keep bringing religion and individual beliefs into it? A person is, they don't belong to anyone. It should be: Any act that harms a person or their property without their prior permission is a crime. There are no exceptions other than immediate personal self defence, which terminates upon the application of minimal force to guarantee the threat will not reoccur (in many cases this means kill the attacker). This should apply to all individuals participating in a governmental role as well. > This neatly tidies up the obvious question of exactly what "individual > rights" are. There's a partial list of them in the bill of rights, but > it is not complete, by its own admission. By it's own admission they are protected from denial by the 9th and 10th so they don't need to be listed (unlike the 10th lists the duties of the government system). The problem is conservatives and liberals alike don't respect those boundaries. They want more. > Furthermore, the above > definition excludes such dubious rights as the "right to an education", > the "right to welfare", etc. Now you're doing exactly what you are complaining about. Your defining others rights when you don't want them defining yours. People may very well have a right to welfare and an education (I believe people have a civil right to medical and legal advice gratis - stems from the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness). The issue isn't that. The issue is *what are the duties of the government as defined in its charter*. If those duties are not in there (and they're not) then it shouldn't be doing it without an amendment from the charter. > All of the above involve the initiation (or threat of initiation) of > force. Hence they are immoral, and the victims and any bystanders would > be morally justified in using force against the initiators. Of course, > this would not be true in a governed society, where the state must hold > a monopoly on the use of force, if only to maintain its own position. > Much less efficient. Go read the Constitution, it's true here in our governemnt though many people don't want it to be so. As a result they find all kinds of childish and inane reasons to deny the obvious. Like it or not the federal governments panapoly of current powers are as vacous as the king is naked. It's like executive orders, unless you happen to work for the executive branch they aren't worth the paper they're written on. Why? Because at no point is the office of President given this authority over anyone other than executive branch employees. He has no more authority to dictate general behaviour via that mechanism than you or I do - zero. Per the 10th there is not one sentence in the Constitution that delegates that authority to the office. > We've all got our pet peeves. Would you like to live under mine? Would > I like to live under yours? Can I trust you to be tolerant? Can I > trust your successors, 20 years from now? Can my descendants trust > subsequent successors, 200 years later? Experience tends to show the > contrary. There is more at stake than toleration or trust. You paint with too narrow a brush. If you're saying we should have anarchy then you're as kooky as the people who don't literaly interpret the Constitution. > The anarcho-capitalist free market is not one where "everything goes," > and there is indeed a strong concept of individual rights. What is > moral and not moral is defined by society on an individual basis. The > first and only rule is: First, it is one of everything-goes because there is no mechanism that will stop anybody from doing anything. There are NO concepts of *rights* in such a system, let alone individual rights. If anything the only rights are who has the capitalist backing to stave off the anarchic forces. That's not justice, equality, or respect for rights. > No one has the right to initiate force against another or another's > property. Attack me with your body and property and watch it happen junior. > This is the fundamental and only "social contract" we make. Anyone who > disagrees with this is obviously antisocial, and nobody's going to want > to live with him (or allow him to continue living, if he attacks > someone). Oh bullshit. There is much more involved like not stealing which isn't the use of force and allowed by your anarcho-capatilism as well as your definition of valid use of force above. It's gibberish. > >From this, morality follows. If X does Y to Z, and if Y is perceived as > immoral, then X is not going to be very popular with Z or anyone else, > unless he can make amends. No one will want to trade with him, be near > him, etc. This is a very strong motive to avoid doing immoral things. Will you get religion the hell out of here please. Y is obviously popular with X or else they wouldn't have used it. It further follows that there are more than one X-type out there. So your premise falls down on its face in the dirt. > If Y is really nasty, such as the initiation of force, then X is going > to be in *deep* trouble. With who? In an anarcho-capitalist society as you paint it the optimal strategy is to allow others to reduce your competition opening up the market for you. Let's take an example. Imagine we live on a street and we notice a person going from house to house down the other side of the street. What is our optimal strategy? It isn't to call the cops (there aren't any) and it isn't to immediately kill the intruder (it isn't our property after all) since there is an opportunity to make a considerable gain here improving our status in the society as a whole. The optimal strategy is to wait and let this bozo kill our neighbors up to our house and *then* kill the intruder. At that point we have just inhereted an entire street of houses and its included properties. You put up a fence across each end of the street and wallah, your own little fifedom. If you're really lucky something similar will happen on the next street over and they won't be as lucky at killing the intruder. Then after they are all dead and the intruder has consolidated their gains (probably by fencing their street in) you can begin to scheme ways of taking that property since its obvious yours is next. > Z may well shoot him out of self defense, and > even if he survives his action, he'll have to pay a *lot* of restitution > before people will trust him again, if ever. Law enforcement by > ostracism --read L. Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach", for a more > detailed description. Wait a second, there is no law to enforce here outside of make money, obtain property, keep somebody else from taking it. > In summary, a free market is far from being an immoral market. In fact, > it is the most moral market there is, since there is no state which > holds the "right" to initiate force. In summary a free-market is a anarchy of kill or be killed, take or get taken. He with the most goodies wins until somebody with a better strategy comes along. There is nothing to moderate the use of force, especialy when its the optimal strategy to increase ones holdings. Your spouting gibberish. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 7 10:04:35 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 02:04:35 +0800 Subject: Stip club plays by rules and wins...for now [CNN] Message-ID: <199811071736.LAA02199@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:34:45 -0600 > X-within-URL: http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=3130419&p_section_name=U.S. > STRIP CLUB FINDS WAY AROUND CITY RESTRICTION: LET KIDS IN > > AP > 06-NOV-98 > > NEW YORK (AP) -- A New York City strip club has found a loophole that > allows it to wriggle past the mayor's crackdown on sex-oriented > businesses. > > The club says its policy is to admit kids -- if they're accompanied by > adults. > > Therefore, it argues, it's not an adult business. > > A judge agrees. > > Mayor Rudolph Giuliani is livid. [rest deleted] ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 7 10:23:52 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 02:23:52 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... Message-ID: <199811071757.LAA02280@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, I was pondering the draconian implications of the requirement to register ISP's. Would an email only site be an ISP under these regulations? What I had in mind was a box sitting here on a link to the Internet and several local dial-ins. When a user logged in they could start pine, elm, slip, or ppp. It would support inbound only telnet. The only commands that would execute besides the above would be exit, quit, bye. There would not need to be any directory access or related issues. The only storage avaiable would be quotas on email buffer size. Would such a commercial entity require registry to be protected? I have to talk with a lawyer and find out if TAG needs registered. If so then I'd be interested in participating in a civil liberties suit. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 7 11:49:42 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 03:49:42 +0800 Subject: Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies Message-ID: <199811071926.UAA19456@replay.com> Aaww horseplops[1]! In fact, great, festering, mid-path, sole-sticking horseplops! This argument is vacuous. As every small child knows, authentication != identification and, in most cases, only authentication is required and, the absence of identification implies privacy. Am I a UK citizen, a good credit risk, a club member in good standing, etc. An appropriate mechanism, a smartcard, can easily authenticate both itself (challenge-response) and the bearer via a biometric and/or PIN without revealing the identity of the holder. However, who holds out hope that such a sensible thing would ever be adopted by the powers-that-be. Nematode [1] The plop is a useful measure of human cogitation. As every small child knows, much good thinking is done whilst enthroned on the commode, since the evacuation of feces from the anus promotes the introduction of fresh material into the brain through the ears. After years of experimentation and careful measurement, we (the ISO labs) have observed a strong correlation between ideas and fecal bombardment of the receptive commodal pool and audible emissions therefrom. For example, it required only 0.3 plops to decide to vote for Clinton while a similar decision in favor of John Major required almost 5 plops. For the purposes of comparison, 10^6 homosapiens plop = 1 horseplop. While the relationship between megaplops, flops and MIPS is not yet clear, our ISO plop standard should be emitted soon. -----BEGIN PLOP SIGNATURE----- Version: PLOP for Personal Privacy Charset: nocommode NSACIAMOUSEaw6mkJhRWnHTzAQFMlgP/ZMM+14qUzy+w6AGSlOtAyrE2BBDSV3Hm Tlc0Ct7wyXV2CPEMzieCm4ZS0rzigkgTZTMCmEqYexEJkdSAU60WMHm3cr28UJIG ekx7N7aWKQ34u05dRrE+IVR329y0ia/2F8B7edZ7CqoydOJAnQxNIB1qohlCGlGT RYgOGVSpO04= =MF1K -----END PLOP SIGNATURE----- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 7 12:05:35 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:05:35 +0800 Subject: Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies (fwd) Message-ID: <199811071943.NAA02441@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:26:24 +0100 > From: Anonymous > Subject: Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies > Am I a UK citizen, a good credit risk, a club member in good > standing, etc. An appropriate mechanism, a smartcard, can easily > authenticate both itself (challenge-response) and the bearer via a biometric > and/or PIN without revealing the identity of the holder. > > However, who holds out hope that such a sensible > thing would ever be adopted by the powers-that-be. What the powers-that-be hold is realy irrelevant. The issue is what do we do to make sure that the powers-that-are-to-be don't have that option? ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From guy at panix.com Sat Nov 7 12:16:17 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:16:17 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... Message-ID: <199811071956.OAA15936@panix7.panix.com> > From: Jim Choate > > Hi, > > I was pondering the draconian implications of the requirement to register > ISP's. Would an email only site be an ISP under these regulations? I dunno. But I've begun netcopping the Ignition-Point list on an ongoing basis (starting Friday), and they'll be an interesting test case of whether what they're doing is "fair use". Pobox.com/listbox.com is reluctantly assigning a person to receive (my) copyright complaints, and will register themselves with the FCO. I like to post whole articles myself. Anyway, for a test case, better them than me. ---guy ;-) From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 7 12:16:34 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:16:34 +0800 Subject: IP: Head of U.S. Internet Policy Plans to Resign: Magaziner Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com X-Sender: believer at telepath.com Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:05:02 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Head of U.S. Internet Policy Plans to Resign: Magaziner Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: list Reply-To: believer at telepath.com Source: New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/yr/mo/cyber/articles/07magaziner.html November 6, 1998 Magaziner, Head of U.S. Internet Policy, Plans to Resign By JERI CLAUSING ASHINGTON -- Ira C. Magaziner, who has led the Clinton Administration's efforts to foster the growth of the Internet and electronic commerce, said today that he plans to leave the White House before the end of the year. Magaziner said he has not set a departure date or made any firm plans for his future, but he hopes to wrap up his duties within the next month and move back to New England. His family moved there a year ago, he said, and he has been commuting since then. "I felt a responsibility to follow through on what we had committed," Magaziner said. "And we have had some good successes." Magaziner joined the Clinton Administration five and a half years ago to draft what turned out to be a doomed effort to restructure the nation's health care system. He then turned to the Internet, where he has been aggressively trying to shape domestic and international policy for electronic commerce and governance of the Internet. "At a time when there was a lot of confusion about where the [Internet] industry was going both domestically and internationally, Ira Magaziner was the guy who rolled up his sleeves and got into the nitty-gritty of how technology works, what the effect would be on our society, and then took those notions and began to be the evangelist for the Internet industry in a global marketplace," said Brian O'Shaughnessy, spokesman for the Internet Alliance, one of the world's largest associations of companies with Internet interests. "He's a cerebral guy who took these intellectual ideas and wrestled a lot of very powerful forces to the table... He's certainly been the champion for [Internet] self-governance." In June 1997, after studying the Internet for 15 months, Magaziner released the Administration's "Framework for Electronic Commerce," which called for a hands-off, market-driven approach to regulation of the global network. Magaziner's philosophy then and now is that while the Internet is growing rapidly, this growth could be stymied by excessive government intervention. "For this potential to be realized fully," he wrote in that report, "governments must adopt a nonregulatory, market-oriented approach to electronic commerce, one that facilitates the emergence of a transparent and predictable legal environment to support global business and commerce. Official decision makers must respect the unique nature of the medium and recognize that widespread competition and increased consumer choice should be the defining features of the new digital marketplace." Since then, he has led efforts to hand administration of the global network over to the private sector, and has traveled the world pushing other countries to endorse his tax-free, unregulated approach to the new medium. Magaziner said he is satisfied that he has put the issue of electronic commerce on the world's agenda. In addition to winning passage of two new laws imposing a moratorium on new Internet taxes in the United States and protecting copyrights in the digital age, he has won international agreements to keep the Internet duty-free and set standards for international payment systems. He is also wrapping up what has been a highly contentious effort to hand the administrative functions of the Internet's name and address system over to a private corporation. But as he announces his departure, Magaziner has left one important issue -- online privacy -- unresolved. Magaziner has been the lead cheerleader for industry self-regulation on how personal data is collected and used in electronic databases, a controversial stance that has put the United States directly at odds with the European Union and one that threatens to disrupt electronic commerce with those countries. Critics say he has ignored consumer interests in favor of business. However, others laud his refusal to back down. "Ira...has been working long and hard on behalf of self-governance and not letting the E.U. data directive simply become the rule of the day," O'Shaughnessy said. The European directive that took effect last month imposes strict privacy policies on companies that do business in Europe. A key provision of that law prohibits any company doing business in the European Union from transmitting personal data to any country that does not guarantee comparable privacy protections. The European Union has said that self-regulatory models adopted by industry groups in the United States do not meet its requirements. It has held off on imposing sanctions against the United States until at least December while the governments involved attempt to negotiate a compromise. The Commerce Department this week laid out its negotiating position, which proposes giving companies a variety of "safe harbors" to satisfy privacy protection. One idea is to create independent organizations that would monitor a company's data practices and give companies that comply with accepted guidelines what amounts to a stamp of approval. The E.U. has so far rejected that plan. But Magaziner said the Administration has scored a victory in getting the E.U. to agree to discuss self-regulation as a remedy. "They agreed to hold back, and we are still discussing it with them," he said. "We got them to recognize in February self-regulation as being legitimate. So under their own direction they are saying self-regulatory approaches can work. Now we have to get them to agree to recognize what we are proposing. That may not be finished by the time I leave, but it will be well along." Magaziner has also been leading the effort to move administration of the Internet to an international, nonprofit corporation. That power had been exercised by the United States government -- at first directly, and in recent years under a government contract granting a monopoly on domain name registrations to Network Solutions, a corporation based in Herndon, Va. A driving force toward creation of the new board was the demand by private companies around the world that they be allowed to compete with Network Solutions in the lucrative business of registering domain names. But finding a solution that balances the interests of more traditional, academic institutions with trademark holders and commercial entities with a huge stake in the future of electronic commerce proved difficult, and much controversy still surrounds the plan that Magaziner hopes to finalize this month. Last month, the Administration tentatively approved handing the reins of the Internet over to the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN). This new corporation was set up largely under the direction of one of the Internet's founders, the late Jon Postel. Although the ICANN proposal was presented as having "the support of a broad consensus of Internet stakeholders, private and public," several groups have complained that it was hammered out in secret and still lacks proper fiscal controls and appropriate power checks on future board members. The Department of Commerce has asked the nine-member interim board of ICANN to craft new bylaws that address those concerns, a proposal that is expected to be completed within the next week and which will be the topic of a public meeting next week in Cambridge, Mass. Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 7 12:46:17 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:46:17 +0800 Subject: Quick, Dear -- Beat Me In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981107090029.008caa20@apf2.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1507 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 7 13:26:00 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 05:26:00 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... Message-ID: Now *this* should be fun. Someone who claims to be a cypherpunk is now going to call the copyright police on a non-profit, volunteer news list. Cryptoanarchy indeed. The ganglia twitch. When the going gets tough, the "tough" rat out the innocent, it appears... Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text From: Information Security Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:56:55 -0500 (EST) To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Precedence: first-class Reply-To: Information Security X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > From: Jim Choate > > Hi, > > I was pondering the draconian implications of the requirement to register > ISP's. Would an email only site be an ISP under these regulations? I dunno. But I've begun netcopping the Ignition-Point list on an ongoing basis (starting Friday), and they'll be an interesting test case of whether what they're doing is "fair use". Pobox.com/listbox.com is reluctantly assigning a person to receive (my) copyright complaints, and will register themselves with the FCO. I like to post whole articles myself. Anyway, for a test case, better them than me. ---guy ;-) --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 7 13:26:42 1998 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 05:26:42 +0800 Subject: genetic copy protection Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981107124923.007d7660@m7.sprynet.com> A patent on a means to produce seeds which germinate, but which produce plants whose seeds are sterile, was reviewed in Science, p 850, 30 Oct 98 vol 282. The trick is that the seeds are genetically engineered, and the seeds are 'activated' by an antibiotic (which acts like a signal). The purpose is to copy-protect other engineered genes in the organism. US pat 5,723,765 David Honig "When horsemeat is outlawed, only outlaws will eat horsemeat" From phelix at vallnet.com Sat Nov 7 13:52:59 1998 From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 05:52:59 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... In-Reply-To: <199811071757.LAA02280@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3646ba82.49389892@news> On 7 Nov 1998 13:50:20 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Would such a commercial entity require registry to be protected? A more interesting question is whether anonymous remailers will need to register. I suspect that there will be a challenge to this law that will lead judges to define what an ISP is. That definition will problably be something like: Any service that allows users to connect to, send, or receive information to/from other sites or any site acting as a conduit for users to communicate with others. Already, companies like Newscene and Newsguy (usenet only services) believe that they will need to register, though they aren't technically ISPs, as most people would think of them. Is an anymous remailer needs to register, what will the implications be? -- Phelix From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 7 13:53:08 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 05:53:08 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.14: Anonymous eCash Provider-DigiCash-Files Chapter 11 Message-ID: <199811072128.NAA19746@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.14: Anonymous eCash Provider-DigiCash-Files Chapter 11 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:19:06 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.14: Anonymous eCash Provider-DigiCash-Files Chapter 11 News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday November 6, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: CNET News.com, November 4, 1998 http://www.news.com DigiCash Files Chapter 11 http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28360,00.html?st.ne.4.head By Tim Clark, timc at cnet.com Staff Writer, CNET News.com Electronic-cash pioneer DigiCash [ http://www.digicash.com/ ] said today it's filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after shrinking its payroll to about six people from nearly 50 in February. The company, which has been running off a bridge loan from its venture capital investors since June, is seeking new investors from established financial institutions or a buyer for its software technology. The company's operations in the Netherlands, where it was founded, were liquidated in September. "To really launch and brand something like this in the Internet space is likely to take a fair amount more capital," said Scott Loftesness, DigiCash's interim CEO since August. "It's more appropriate for strategic investors, corporate players or banks themselves as a consortium model." Electronic-cash schemes have found difficult sledding recently. First Virtual Holdings [ http://www.firstvirtual.com/ ], which had a form of e-cash, exited the business in July. CyberCash's [ http://www.cybercash.com/ ] CyberCoin offering hasn't really caught on. Digital Equipment, now part of Compaq Computer [ http://www.compaq.com/ ] is testing its Millicent electronic cash, and IBM [ http://www.ibm.com/ ] is in early trials for a product called Minipay. Under bankruptcy laws, DigiCash's Chapter 11 filing allows the company to continue operations, while keeping its creditors at bay as the company reorganizes. Most of DigiCash's $4 million in debt is owed to its initial venture capital financiers who extended the bridge loan, August Capital http://www.augustcap.com/ ], Applied Technology, and Dutch investment firm Gilde Investment. DigiCash's eCash allows consumers to make anonymous payments of any amount--and anonymity differentiates eCash against other e-cash schemes. DigiCash's intellectual property assets include patents, protocols, and software systems that also could be used for applications, like online electronic voting or private scrip issued by a particular retailer. DigiCash suffered a setback in September when the only U.S. bank offering its scheme, Mark Twain Bank, dropped the offering. But a number of major banks in Europe and Australia offer or are testing DigiCash's electronic cash. Also in September, DigiCash closed its Dutch operations and liquidated its assets there. Loftesness said DigiCash has a list of 35-40 potential partners, and he has been talking to players like IBM for months. He expects to resolve DigiCash's status in the next five months. "Everybody feels anonymous e-cash is inevitable, but the existing situation was not going to get there from here," said Loftesness, who is frustrated by potential partners telling him, "This is absolutely strategic, but unfortunately it's not urgent." The company was founded by David Chaum and was well-known in the Internet's earliest days. MIT Media Labs' Nicholas Negroponte is a director of DigiCash. Copyright � 1995-98 CNET, Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From austin at zks.net Sat Nov 7 13:55:16 1998 From: austin at zks.net (Austin Hill) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 05:55:16 +0800 Subject: Response to Anonymous re: Zero-Knowledge Freedom In-Reply-To: <1c2f85724bce6d742c27daa1db101d10@anonymous> Message-ID: <000e01be0a93$49b017a0$1901a8c0@austin.zks.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Attn: Anonymous Thank you for your comments with regards to the Freedom project. I would like to respond to some of the points you have brought up. >-----Original Message----- >From: HyperReal-Anon [mailto:nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl] >Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 7:30 PM >To: austin at zks.net >Subject: > > >Attn: Austin Hill >Zero Knowledge Systems, Inc. >3981 St. Laurent Blvd. >Suite 810 >Montr=E9al, Qu=E9bec >H2W 1Y5 >Canada >514.286.2636 phone >514.286.2755 fax > >Mr. Hill: > >Congratulations. I hope your name goes down in history for being >involved in creating and operating FREEDOM.net > >Additional suggestions for the FREEDOM.NET concept: > >1) Undoubtedly, after your client software is developed and deployed >there will be nations run by legislators and politicians with evil >intentions to continue to restrict and sabotage the privacy of >individuals. If your software already has flexible measures coded into >it to counter these evil forces, privacy seeking citizens from >affected nations will prevail. > >For the client side software, it would be extremely useful to have a >feature (or an input field) where users can view their IP hops >(traceroutes), but more important to allow users to BYPASS all local >FREEDOM servers in their home country (example: if terrible laws are >passed like in the Netherlands requiring logging and storage of all >packet info., etc.). In this manner, a local user in a restrictive >nation could set their client to BYPASS all local FREEDOM servers, >accessing only FREEDOM servers in the nearest friendly nation which >protects privacy of users and allows FREEDOM servers to operate AS YOU >DESIGNED THEM. Even the FSU of Russia has already begun to >implement "black box" requirements at every ISP (only Internet by >satellite will bypass this ?) > >Example: > > **Bypass local FREEDOM SERVER** >Enter the IP address of first FREEDOM server to route >through__________________________________ (user fills in this blank) > Route definitions for use of AnonymousIP nodes is COMPLETELY configurable. A user of Freedom can define preferred exit hops (i.e. 'Make all my pseudonyms IP traffic come from country X'); server's to avoid (i.e. 'Never use any Freedom node in country X'); and some rather advanced custom configurations (i.e. 'Always make my exit hop of of the following countries, use the fastest and best routing point for my first hop and make my middle hop one of the following trusted nodes') With regards to countries such as the Netherlands; and Russia these laws will have no effect on Freedom users. Since all IP traffic leaves the local computer anonymized and multiply encrypted with the different keys for different hops a local ISP that is logging all traffic as per government rules will only be able to log encrypted data and be able to reveal that this user is using Freedom. The ability to define the destination or content of that Internet traffic is not possible. As well, due to the features we have included for traffic analysis foiling, both packets and links are padded to avoid traffic correlation's. Even if an all powerful network attacker with the ability to watch all incoming and outgoing connections to all Freedom nodes attempts to correlate traffic patterns, they will not be able to reveal the true identity behind the pseudonym. The user interface for controlling the Freedom node selection and some of these rules is designed to make it COMPLETELY transparent and easy for the average Internet user. There will be an advanced mode that allows more advanced users to built custom routing profiles that they can associate with a particular pseudonym or with particular destination sites. (i.e. Whenever I browse 'www.playboy.com' use pseudonym 'playboyfan' and routing profile 'Fast routing, no rules except exit hop cannot be in the following Muslim countries'). > >2) It is very possible government spy agencies will secretly arrange >for spy friendly ISP's to obtain your software and setup FREEDOM >servers in their nation. Then, they could write or modify code to >intercept and decrypt incoming packets of data BEFORE it hit the >FREEDOM servers. Can you write secret "test" code or test packets >such that you can send out packets from your Canadian headquarters to >test all FREEDOM servers deployed worldwide to detect all forms of >tampering, and if detected, send emergency emails and post on >newgroups the violators ? > This is essentially the hostile root/hostile node attack. Ultimately we have decided that protecting against a hostile root or node is infeasible. (i.e. Whatever attempts we make to make it impossible to have a hostile node, do not justify themselves because they are not completely effective) We do employ some simple protections to try and avoid amateur hostile nodes (Valid binary checking, periodic unannounced audits for nodes) but a sophisticated and well financed attacker could and most likely will operate a number of nodes in the network. To compromise the identity behind a pseudonym, an attacker would have to control or collude with all the nodes you use in a particular AnonymousIP route. Since a user by default uses three hops, and can configure specific nodes that they trust this reduces the possibility of a single node or a groups of nodes being able to work to compromise a pseudonyms privacy. (i.e. If you decide based on reputation to trust Zero-Knowledge, you might enter into your preferences to always use at least one Zero-Knowledge server in your AnonymousIP routers. This means that as long as that Zero-Knowledge server does not have a hostile root or that we have not been subverted that your identity is protected. You may choose to chain trusted servers (i.e. Use Zero-Knowledge, TOAD.COM and EFF.ORG servers (TOAD.COM; EFF.ORG are just examples - They are not to imply that they are currently committed to operate Freedom nodes) for all my anonymous routes.) Also because Freedom node operators are rewarded financially to operate Freedom nodes, we've found incredible interest in the ISP community to operate Freedom nodes. This will help to increase the total number of Freedom nodes in the network, making it that much harder for a hostile attacker to operate a large percentage of nodes in the network. (i.e. 'If there are only 10 nodes in the network, running 40% of them is quite easy. If there are 700 nodes in the network and a user only needs 3 of them, owning enough of those 700 nodes to have a reasonable chance at always being all 3 hops is less likely.) >3) Curiously, what if Canadian legislators / politicians create laws >similar to what the Dutch parliment enacted recently ? Would you move >your entire company to another nation ? Or, would you have to move the >FREEDOM net server headquarters to another nation ? It seems very >important initially to setup FREEDOM servers in as many nations as >possible to counteract such attempts to destroy the right to internet >privacy. Canada has proven quite committed to the privacy of its citizens and has demonstrated its support for Canada's growing cryptography industries. Many leading cryptography companies are now setup in Canada and able to export strong cryptography without restriction. We believe that Canada will remain a friendly country in which to develop our products and distribute them around the world. In the event that the US or another country were able to convince Canada to ban anonymity/pseudonymity online; or make it illegal to provide these services there are plans and provisions we have made to ensure we are able to continue to provide service to our customers. Because of the distributed nature of the system, it would take a global effort among all countries to ban and make Freedom illegal (A nice soundbyte waiting to happen ;) The US would have a difficult time (According to our lawyers) passing a law making anonymity/pseudonymity illegal or banning the domestic use of encryption products like Freedom. Ultimately this will be another example of 'the cats out of the bag'. There will most likely be some fights because this will be the first time that completely pseudonymous digital identities will be accessible to the layman; or average Internet user - and the technical sophistication of AnonymousIP with pseudonymous identities mapped on top will pose a serious challenge for some government initiatives. But we will be attempting to educate law enforcement; government officials that this tool will be the primary and most effective way of protecting children online (From stalkers and aggressive marketing profiles); protecting privacy (Both archived histories that we cannot separate ourselves from; multiple roles we have that are difficult to separate online right now and privacy from aggressive marketing) and protecting free speech and human rights on a global level. For this education process to be effective, we will need to help government understand that there are better ways of using traditional law enforcement techniques to accomplish their goals. This is the same process that many of the cypherpunks; privacy advocacy groups and lobbyists have already been doing and we will work on supporting those efforts. Initially we will have servers deployed in MANY countries and we have an aggressive marketing plan to ensure that we have high penetration of servers very quickly after we release. > >4) I urge you to try and think ahead, designing as many >countermeasures as possible into the first initial version of client >software, making it as easy as possible for users to circumvent any >harmful measures taken by the evil forces of the dark side. We have designed the system to be as versatile as possible and as hard to shut down as possible. We have included provisions (Might not be in version 1, but can be applied very quickly after) to circumvent country level firewalls or proxy servers so that countries that attempt to ban all IP traffic to the Freedom network will encounter many difficulties. While this is not likely in most North American or European countries (Although the US many attempt it when they implement ISP blocking provisions for offshore gambling sites (Online Gambling Act)and realize that Freedom clients can bypass ISP political filtering of sites) in certain other countries around the world, the initial reaction will be to ban Freedom and add it to a list of filtered sites. Since some of these countries are the ones that have citizens who in the most urgent need of unlimited access to Free Speech, total privacy for their browsing and online activities and the ability to communicate secretly - we've made it very difficult for any country to ban our traffic. > >5) A PARADOX awaits - Serious privacy advocates will want to "test" >your system. One such test would be to sign up and operate as as a >spammer, and use your system to pass on SPAM, or what about malicious >hackers ? If that person is identified or revealed by you, then your >system has been revealed as not a true anonymous system, and there >will be a media feeding frenzy exposing it. But if it IS a truely >anonymous system, you will have no way to identify and locate spammers >or malicious hackers. The SPAM dilemma was one of the more difficult ones that we faced in designing the project. We were aware that if we could not manage the abuse (Spam, harassment, Anonymous hack attempts) then we would quickly become 'blackballed' for most services and a few bad apples could affect all of our legitimate users. We could not have the option of knowing who to hold responsible for abuse because that would include our holding some sort of identity escrow which we specifically did not want and designed the system to make impossible. The alternative we decided on was to invest significantly on making abuse easier through other networks than the Freedom network. Some of the ways we've accomplished this; - -Designed the entire system around untraceable pseudonymity as opposed to anonymity. This re-enforces the reputation capital aspect of having a pseudonym. In general we hope this will promote people who have made an investment in a pseudonym (Both in time, and money) to be careful about how badly the affect the online reputation of that pseudonym. - -Associated a direct cost with a pseudonym By having a cost associated with a pseudonym, many people who would normally take liberties in abusing Internet communication will/do hesitate, since there is the potential of losing that financial investment. - -Forcing 'nymserver' like features of having all outgoing e-mail pass through the Freedom server, signed by both the pseudonym and the Freedom network key to avoid forged spam baiting mail. - -Allowing end users to have destination blocking per recipient and making it easy for them to request not to receive e-mail from a particular pseudonym. (In cases of harassment) - -Developing sophisticated SPAM blocking systems to make our network VERY VERY unfriendly to pseudonyms attempting to send SPAM. (i.e. Max per day recipients limits of 500 or so people; with the limit automatically adjusting to deal with averages of all pseudonyms and number of confirmed spam complaints.) Bulk mailers will have the option of purchasing a more expensive pseudonym that removes any daily limits for recipients but has strict cancellation policies for unsolicited spam (This enables an underground Zine that publishes anonymously to sent out an edition every Friday to 15,000 people; but if someone buys one of the bulk mailing pseudonyms (Around $500+/year) and abuses by sending a massive SPAM we will confirm the spam complaints (Based on digital sig on headers and message) and then have the right to cancel the pseudonyms (Resulting in the Spammer paying $500+ to deliver one spam to many people then losing that pseudonym.) This makes it cheaper to SPAM from other free services or open mail relay systems thereby diverting hard core spammers from making the Freedom network their home. - -Anonymous Telnet host blocking (Site administrators can work with us to block anonymous telnet to their sites) allowing certain sites such as MUDs and Telnet BBS's to allow access but corporate/university sites to restrict access for anonymous telnet. We hope with these and other systems we have taken the time to develop it will help mitigate or reduce the potential of a few malicious users to harm the legitimate Freedom users. Ultimately we have only once choice in dealing with abuse, canceling the pseudonym which will cause a financial loss for someone as well as killing that 'nym and any reputation it has gathered. The terms under which we will cancel a pseudonym will be very clearly posted, and the only other time is when a government agency (Canadian) issues us a court order to turn off a pseudonym. There is NO MEANS possible for us to reveal the identity of a user (Thereby avoiding some of the Penet.Fi style attacks). > >6) It seems unfortunate that some of the larger, "holier than thou, >self righteous" worldwide ISP's (like AOL) will be frustrated at >FREEDOM net not being able to identify who the spammers or hackers >are, and then BLOCK FREEDOM net packets from going through their >servers, starting little electronic wars. These "blocking wars" have >already occured from time to time. Hopefully with the abuse management tools we've made available we will cut off any attempts to block or ban our service. If certain domains/admins feel they still wish to ban Freedom traffic we would work with them to address whatever concerns we can to help restore good routing relations, but in the end it will be up to our users to fight for FREEDOM, if anyone attempts to take it away. Strong letter writing campaigns, boycotts and media attention should all help pressure certain organizations to deal with us on any complaints or issues they have and not treat pseudonyms as second class online citizens. Ultimately this service and peoples pseudonymous digital identities will be as valuable as they make them. By using them frequently, lobbying sites to support pseudonymous identities (For instance for one click authentication and login to web sites), and making sure the get ALL their friends to use pseudonyms then it becomes REALLY difficult to shut the service down or silence millions of users. If there is a small uptake and we only have 100,000 pseudonyms it would be possible to shut the service down without a lot of noise (We'll make as much as we can, but ultimately our users have to help). With 12 million pseudonyms registered and all of them making as much noise as possible to fight any attempts to ban Freedom, there will by a lot more chance of making Freedom completely ubiquitous. > >7) It would really be useful for your staff to address questions/ >concerns like these and others by creating pages regarding these >matters on your website. Hopefully, you are on some of the lists that I am responding to your e-mail with. Most of this information will be posted in time to our web site, but the FAQ's and whitepapers describing most of this are not ready for publication on the web yet. > > >Anonymously Yours, > >P.S. I will only feel comfortable revealing my anonymous self to you >by way of my psuedonym, when I sign up with your service, which I hope >to do as soon as FREEDOM net is ready. > > Thanks for the interest and comments. I hope I've been able to answer most of your questions. ________________________________________________________________________ _ Austin Hill Zero-Knowledge Systems Inc. President Montreal, Quebec Phone: 514.286.2636 Ext. 226 Fax: 514.286.2755 E-mail: austin at zks.net http://www.zks.net Zero Knowledge Systems Inc. - Nothing Personal Changing the world with Zero Knowledge PGP Fingerprints 2.6.3i = 3F 42 A2 0D AF 78 20 ED A2 BB AD BE 8B 40 5E 64 5.5.3i = 77 1E 62 21 B3 F0 EB C0 AA 6C 65 30 56 CA BA C4 94 26 EC 00 keys available at http://www.nai.com/products/security/public_keys/pub_key_default.asp ________________________________________________________________________ _ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.3i for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNkS3qlbKusSUJuwAEQJzNACg7TTSDuipjmCrT78WMWKskdOkzgQAnAnq R4ka2Ne+CMK4FmyAt6qfExJu =paSA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 7 15:05:42 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:05:42 +0800 Subject: IP: Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers Message-ID: <199811072128.NAA19724@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:22:46 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Wired http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16035.html?3 Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers by Declan McCullagh 4:00 a.m.5.Nov.98.PST The phones are already ringing when Steve Portela arrives at his office every morning. Orders are piling up as they never have before. Walton Feed, his bulk food company, doubled its workforce this year to 125 people and a new warehouse will open in late November. It isn't enough. Orders placed today won't be delivered for six months. "I'm falling further behind every day," Portela complains. The source of Portela's woes? Widespread worries about the Year 2000 computer problem. The looming bug has sent thousands of Americans scrambling to load up on bulk food, generators, solar cells, and gold coins. Some of the products, if ordered today, won't arrive on a customer's doorstep until spring 1999. And delays are expected to grow. Spikes in demand are nothing new to Portela. The Mount St. Helens eruption, the Los Angeles riots, and the last major California earthquake all spurred people into grabbing their credit cards and phoning Walton Feed. From a perch 6,000 feet up in the Idaho mountains, the company has grown into one of the nation's largest bulk food suppliers. But nervous jitters caused by those disruptions are peanuts compared to growing fears that Y2K will snarl electric power, telecommunications, and the banking system. "Add it all together, and Y2K surpasses everything," Portela says. This time it's not just survivalists stockpiling sealed barrels from Walton's extensive selection of wheat, rice, and other dried foods. "It's common everyday folks, people just like you," Portela says of his customers. "We're not talking about any radical people." Other food companies have similar bellyaches. "The demand is amazing -- 99.99 percent of the people we deal with are preparing for Y2K," says Tamera Toups, office manager for Montana-based Peace of Mind Essentials." Unlike Walton's, Peace of Mind Essentials doesn't boast a storeroom full of towering bins of grain. Instead, it places orders that are later filled by warehouses. Toups estimates volume has leapt 500 percent this year. "If anyone doesn't have an order in by the end of April, their chances of getting it before 2000 are pretty slim," she said. "The window might be even smaller than that." You'll still be able to buy bulk food after next April, of course. America Inc., a food exporter, has plenty of it. But Walton Feed makes a niche product prized by Y2Kers: sealed 50-pound drums of food with the oxygen removed, a process that delays spoilage and eliminates grain-munching critters. A year's supply tips the scales at 600 pounds and costs $300, plus shipping. Trying to procure a diesel generator, on the other hand, is shaping up to be increasingly difficult. Loren Day, president of China Diesel Imports, spends a good portion of each day puzzling out how to crank out more and more generators to meet a swell of Y2K orders. Shipments of his company's most popular 8,000-watt model are already running six months behind. "Orders are up about 1,000 percent since the first of the year," Day says. "And the amount of people who will want a generator now is nothing compared to the amount of people who will want a generator later." Day, whose 50-person company is the largest US distributor of diesel generators, usually sells to rural customers who live beyond the reach of electric power lines. "Now with this Y2K thing it's gone crazy," he said. He said he now has the both of the world's largest generator manufacturers running at near capacity to satisfy US demand. Why don't Y2Kers simply pick up a $500 gasoline generator at Home Depot or their local hardware store? Day believes they're so worried about the oft-criticized reliability of the portable units, that they're willing to pay diesel prices, starting at $1,750. "The main thing is the longevity and fuel economy of the diesel," he said. Diesel fuel is an oil, so it keeps longer than gasoline, which spoils after a year. Those Y2K consumers who dread running out of fuel are also turning to renewable energy. "We're totally swamped by Y2K," said Laura Myers, a sales representative for solar equipment distributor Sunelco. "We're beginning to see some lead times on some of our products. By next spring it's going to be insane." Sales at the Hamilton, Montana-based Sunelco have tripled because of Y2K, Myers said. She predicts that orders placed after next spring won't arrive until 2000. "It's been a huge increase," said Davy Rippner, a vice president at Alternative Energy Engineering, a California-based firm. "The things that we're out of and we can't keep in stock are the Baygen [hand-cranked] radios and the Russian-made hand-dynamo flashlights." Then there are the full-blown home solar systems, which start at $3,000 and can range up to $30,000. "A lot of small installers around the country that have been struggling to make a living are now booked for months in advance," said Karen Perez, who publishes Home Power magazine with her husband Richard from the couple's off-the-grid home outside of Ashland, Oregon. The Perez family won't do anything to prepare for Y2K -- except spend time handling the sharp uptick in recent subscriptions to their magazine. "We're six miles from the nearest phone and power line," she said. "As far as Y2K with us, the only thing that I'm planning on doing personally is getting a stash of non-hybrid seeds." Non-hybrid seeds are particularly prized by Y2Kers who stay up nights worrying that potential widespread computer crashes could disrupt food distribution. Most hardware store seeds are hybrid varieties. They grow well, but they can be sterile. Since seeds from hybrid plants may not germinate, some Y2Kers are stockpiling the non-hybrid varieties. "[We've been] getting calls about bulk seeds and buying in quantities and packing them for storage for some period of time," said Dave Smith, vice president of Seeds of Change in Santa Fe, New Mexico. "We definitely think that there will be an increase in sales because of this problem." Burt Blumert doesn't need to speculate. The Burlingame, California, company he owns, Camino Coin, has seen sales of precious metal coins double from last year because of Y2K jitters. "It's widespread now," Blumert said. In May, Blumert began to run ads for a "Y2K Life Preserver," a $3,500 collection of coins that includes British gold sovereigns, silver dollars, and pre-1965 silver dimes and quarters. He markets the collection as a kind of financial Y2K insurance policy, just in case banking glitches or more widespread problems call for a permanent currency. "When people buy gold, they're dropping out," he said. "This is the ultimate dropout, when the institutions themselves aren't working." Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 7 15:05:43 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:05:43 +0800 Subject: IP: Discover Alien Life With Your PC And SETI Message-ID: <199811072128.NAA19768@netcom13.netcom.com> From: Richard Sampson Subject: IP: Discover Alien Life With Your PC And SETI Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:09:03 -0500 To: "ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com" ****Discover Alien Life With Your PC And SETI TOKYO, JAPAN, 1998 NOV 5 (Newsbytes) -- By Martyn Williams, Newsbytes. The SETI at home project, which hopes to harness the idle processing power of thousands of desktop personal computers to help in the search for intelligent life in the universe, is back on track with an April 1999 launch date. The project was launched in mid 1997 and was scheduled to begin operations early this year (Newsbytes, August 18, 1997) but the launch was delayed after funding problems slowed research and development work. Now, with new funding and hardware donated by Sun Microsystems, the project is back on track. Hoping to attract the millions of computer users that believe in the existence of intelligent life in space, the project will be based around a special screensaver. Like any screensaver, the software kicks in when you aren't using your PC but unlike other software, the SETI at home application won't present you with a banal selection of flying windows of swimming fish. Instead, it will be doing something much more useful: analyzing radio frequency spectrum data captured by the Arecibo radio telescope in Puerto Rico. The analysis is searching for a signal out of all the noise from space - a signal that may reveal the existence of intelligent life. The project team estimates that once 50,000 PCs are enrolled in the project, the SETI at home program will rival other similar SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) programs that are looking for signals from space and may turn up signals that would otherwise be missed. The program works like this: data is collected from SERENDIP, a SETI project based at UC Berkeley, on magnetic tape and transferred to SETI at home servers. This data is then distributed to participating PC users as they log onto the Internet and the data is analyzed on their PCs. Once finished, the results are returned to the project servers via the Internet. First tests of the system, with 100 volunteers, has just begun and the project hopes to make available the first generation SETI at home screensavers in April 1999. These will be available for Windows, Apple and Unix based platforms. What's in it for the user? Apart from helping science, the team says, "There's a small but captivating possibility that your computer will detect the faint murmur of a civilization beyond Earth." For more information on the project, how to offer your spare computer capacity and how to donate money, check the SETI at home Web page at http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu . Numerous foreign language versions of the page are also available. Reported By Newsbytes News Network, http://www.newsbytes.com -0- (19981105/WIRES ONLINE/) News provided by COMTEX. [!BUSINESS] [!HIGHTECH] [!INFOTECH] [!PUBLIC+COMPANIES] [!WALL+STREET] [COMPUTER] [HARDWARE] [INTERNET] [JAPAN] [MONEY] [NBY] [NEWS] [NEWSGRID] [PUERTO+RICO] [RADIO] [RESEARCH] [SCIENCE] [SOFTWARE] [TOKYO] -- ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 7 15:05:56 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:05:56 +0800 Subject: IP: TOTALITARIAN TECHNOLOGY Message-ID: <199811072128.NAA19735@netcom13.netcom.com> From: Bill Kingsbury Subject: IP: TOTALITARIAN TECHNOLOGY Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:47:59 -0500 To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com from: http://www.newdawnmagazine.com.au/50a.htm=20 TOTALITARIAN TECHNOLOGY -- The Truth is Closer Than Fiction --------------------------------- By SUSAN BRYCE=20 Over the last decade, Hollywood has sensitised us to totalitarian technology. Block buster movies portray our heroes and heroines using the weapons of the new millennium. Militarised police forces keep citizens safe; android warrior personnel, part human, part robot are gainfully employed as global peacekeepers; prisoners are incarcerated in high tech electronic jails, controlled with implanted microchips, while the free population is kept under surveillance through the use of biometric identity systems.=20 Science fiction perhaps? Reality yes! Much of what we see on the big screen is not the latest fantasy of Hollywood script writers, but is based on fact. Any film maker wanting a picture of the future need look no further than existing military technology and research. =20 A recent report published by the European Parliament, "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control", shows just how far these new technologies have come, and how they are being actively employed against citizens in countries across the globe.=20 The report warns of "an overall technological and decision drift towards world wide convergence of nearly all the technologies of political control", including identity recognition; denial; surveillance systems based on neural networks; new arrest and restraint methods and the emergence of so called `less lethal' weapons.=20 Developments in surveillance technology, innovations in crowd control weapons, new prison control systems, the rise of more powerful restraint, torture, killing and execution technologies and the role of privatised enterprises in promoting such technologies pose a grave threat to our immediate and future freedoms.=20 Trade in Technologies of Control=20 Cutting edge developments made by the Western military-industrial complex are providing invaluable support to various governments throughout the world. The report "Big Brother Incorporated", by surveillance watchdog Privacy International, presents a detailed analysis of the international trade in surveillance technology. =20 Privacy International says it is concerned about "the flow of sophisticated computer-based technology from developed countries to developing countries -- and particularly to non-democratic regimes where surveillance technologies become tools of political control." =20 The international trade in surveillance technology (known as the Repression Trade), involves the manufacture and export of technologies of political control. More than seventy per cent of companies manufacturing and exporting surveillance technology also export arms, chemical weapons or military hardware.=20 The justification advanced by the companies involved in this trade is identical to the justification advanced in the arms trade -- i.e.: that the technology is neutral. Privacy International's view is that in the absence of legal protection, the technology can never be neutral. =20 As "Big Brother Incorporated" points out, "even those technologies intended for `benign' uses rapidly develop more sinister purposes. The UK manufactured `Scoot' traffic control cameras in Beijing's Tianamen Square were automatically employed as surveillance cameras during the student demonstrations. Images captured from the cameras were broadcast over Chinese television to ensure that the `offending' students were captured." =20 Privacy International cites numerous cases where this type of technology has been obtained for the express purpose of political and social control...=20 -- ICL (International Computers Limited) provided the technological infrastructure to establish the South African automated Passbook system, upon which much of the function of the apartheid regime depended. =20 -- In the 1980s Israeli company Tadiram developed and exported the technology for the computerised death list used by the Guatemalan police. =20 -- Reported human rights abuses in Indonesia -- particularly those affecting East Timor -- would not be possible without the strategic and technological support of Western companies. Among those companies supplying the Indonesian police and military with surveillance and targeting technology are Morpho Systems (France), De la Ruue Printak (UK), EEV Night Vision (UK), ICL (UK), Marconi Radar and Control Systems (UK), Pyser (UK), Siemens Plessey Defense Systems (UK), Rockwell International Corporation (USA) and SWS Security (USA). =20 Tools of Repression for 'Democratic' States=20 We should not forget that the same companies supplying regimes with repression technology, also supply `democratic' states with their totalitarian tools. =20 Leutcher Associates Inc. of Massachusetts supplies and services American gas chambers, as well as designing, supplying and installing electric chairs, auto-injection systems and gallows. The Leutcher lethal injection system costs approximately $30,000 and is the cheapest system the company sells. Their electrocution systems cost =A335,000 and a gallows would cost approximately $85,000. More and more US states are opting for Leutcher's $100,000 "execution trailer" which comes complete with a lethal injection machine, a steel holding cell for an inmate, and separate areas for witnesses, chaplain, prison workers and medical personnel. Some companies in Europe have even offered to supply gallows.=20 In the 1970's, J.A. Meyer of the US Defense Department suggested a countrywide network of transceivers for monitoring all prisoners on parole, via an irremovable transponder implant. The idea was that parolees movements could be continuously checked and the system would facilitate certain areas or hours to be out of bounds, whilst having the economic advantage of cutting down on the costs of clothing and feeding the prisoner. If prisoners go missing, the police could automatically home in on their last position. =20 Meyer's vision came into operational use in America in the mid 1980's, when some private prisons started to operate a transponder based parole system. The system has now spread into Canada and Europe where it is known as electronic tagging. Whilst the logic of tagging is difficult to resist, critics argue that the recipients of this technology appear not to be offenders who would have been imprisoned, but rather low risk offenders who are most likely to be released into the community anyway. Because of this, the system is not cheaper since the authorities gain the added expense of supplying monitoring devices to offenders who would have been released anyway. Electronic tagging is however beneficial to the companies who sell such systems. Tagging also has a profitable role inside prisons in the US and in some prisons, notably, DeKalb County Jail near Atlanta, where all prisoners are bar coded.=20 'Non-Lethal' Technology of Control=20 The increasing militarisation of police forces throughout the world is reflected in the spread of "less lethal" weapons such as pepper gas. Benignly referred to by the media as "capsicum spray", pepper gas was recently used by Australian police in the state of Victoria to subdue a man. According to media reports, the Victorian police also used "a weapon they don't want to disclose". =20 The effects of pepper gas are far more severe than most people realise. It is known to cause temporary blindness, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes.=20 For those with asthma or subject to restraining techniques which restrict the breathing passages, there is a risk of death. The Los Angeles Times has reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA, and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has documented 27 deaths in custody of people sprayed with pepper gas in California alone, since 1993.=20 The US Army concluded in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study that pepper spray could cause "Mutagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neuro-toxicity, as well as possible human fatalities." =20 The existing arsenal of weapons designed for public order and control will soon be joined by a second generation of kinetic, chemical, optico-acoustic, and microwave weapons, adding to the disabling and paralysing technologies already available. Much of the initial work on these new technologies has been undertaken in US nuclear laboratories such as Oak Ridge, Lawrence Livermore and Los Alamos. The European Parliament Report "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control" lists a Pandora's box of new technologies including:=20 -- Ultra-sound generators, which cause disorientation, vomiting and involuntary defecation, disturbing the ear system which controls balance and inducing nausea. The system which uses two speakers can target individuals in a crowd. =20 -- Visual stimulus and illusion techniques such as high intensity strobes which pulse in the critical epileptic fit-inducing flashing frequency and holograms used to project active camouflage. =20 -- Reduced energy kinetic weapons. Variants on the bean bag philosophy which ostensibly will result in no damage (similar claims were once made about plastic bullets). =20 -- New disabling, calmative, sleep inducing agents mixed with DMSO which enables the agent to quickly cross the skin barrier and an extensive range of pain causing, paralysing and foul-smelling area-denial chemicals. Some of these are chemically engineered variants of the heroin molecule. They work extremely rapidly, one touch and disablement follows. Yet one person's tranquillisation may be another's lethal dose. =20 -- Microwave and acoustic disabling systems. =20 -- Human capture nets which can be laced with chemical irritant or electrified to pack an extra disabling punch. =20 -- Lick `em and stick `em technology such as the Sandia National Laboratory's foam gun which expands to between 35-50 times its original volume. Its extremely sticky, gluing together any target's feet and hands to the pavement. =20 -- Aqueous barrier foam which can be laced with pepper spray. =20 -- Blinding laser weapons and isotrophic radiator shells which use superheated gaseous plasma to produce a dazzling burst of laser like light. =20 -- Thermal guns which incapacitate through a wall by raising body temperature to 107 degrees. =20 -- Magnetosphere gun which delivers what feels like a blow to the head. =20 "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control" says "we are no longer at a theoretical stage with these weapons. US companies are already piloting new systems, lobbying hard and where possible, laying down potentially lucrative patents." For example, last year New Scientist reported that the American Technology Corporation (ATC) of Poway, California has used what it calls acoustical heterodyning technology to target individuals in a crowd with infra-sound to pinpoint an individual 200-300 metres away. The system can also project sonic holograms which can conjure audio messages out of thin air so just one person hears them. Meanwhile, Jane's reported that the US Army Research Laboratory has produced a variable velocity rifle for lethal or non lethal use -- a new twist to flexible response. Other companies are promoting robots for use in riot and prison control.=20 Advances in Biometric Identification=20 Through the inevitability of gradualness, repression technology, in the form of biometric identity systems, is permeating our every day life. Biometry involves using a physical characteristic such as a fingerprint, palm print, iris or retina scan to identify individuals. These unique identity charact-eristics are digitally stored on a computer system for verification. This way, the identity of each person can be compared to the stored original. Christians will be interested to note that with biometric systems, the original print is stored not as a `picture' but as an algorithm. The number of your name will be literally in your hand (thumb print) or in your forehead (eyes).=20 Biometric identification is not something that we just see at the movies. It is here, it is with us now. Governments in Australia, the USA and the UK are planning its widespread introduction by 2005. =20 Both the Dutch and Australian public rejected plans for a national information and identification scheme en masse several years ago, but have reacted more passively to equally intrusive (but less blatant) schemes in the 1990's.=20 Uses of the Social Security Number in the USA, the Social Insurance Number in Canada, the Tax File Number in Australia, the SOFI Number in the Netherlands and the Austrian Social Security Number have been extended progressively to include taxation, unemployment support, pensioner benefits and, in some cases, health and higher education. Functional creep is rampant.=20 Large scale government computer based schemes have been shown in several countries to be much less cost-effective than was originally estimated. Years after the governments of the United States and Australia developed schemes to match public sector data, there is still no clear evidence that the strategy has succeeded in achieving its goals. The audit agencies of both federal governments have cast doubt that computer matching schemes deliver savings. =20 A nationwide survey by Columbia University last year reported that 83% of people approve of the use of finger imaging. Biometrics is being embraced on a global scale. The Australian company, Fingerscan, a subsidiary of Californian based Identix Inc, recently won one of the biggest bank contracts for biometric security in the world. Fingerscan is working with the Bank of Central Asia in Jakarta, Indonesia to replace numeric passwords for employees at 5000 branches with fingerprint based system access.=20 Fingerscan also has the world's largest application of biometrics in the servicing of automated teller machines. In conjunction with contractor Armaguard, which services ATMs for Australian banks, many ATMs are now unlocked by the representative's fingerprint. The representative brings a portable scanning device that plugs into the back of the ATM and connects the bank's server which grants him or her admittance. =20 The US government has a deadline of 1999 to implement electronic benefits processing for welfare recipients, but this may be delayed to accommodate biometrics, which is currently being piloted in five American states. The Australian government will introduce a biometric identity system for welfare recipients by 2005.=20 Blue Cross and Blue Shield in the USA have plans to introduce nationwide fingerprinting for hospital patients. This may be extended into other medical applications. The Jamaican Government is planning to introduce electronic thumb scanning to control elections. Social Security verification using biometrics is used in Spain and South Africa. In 1994, the UK Department of Social Security developed a proposal to introduce a national identification card, which recommended a computerised database of the hand-prints of all 30 million people receiving government income assistance. =20 Big Brother's International Network of Surveillance=20 Biometric identification is the technology of today and the future. It is not a matter of if, but when, a global network of computers will link all stored biometric images in a central location, managed by a collective of international authorities. =20 In 1994, under the leadership of US Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), a consortium of the world's leading companies formed the Global Information Infrastructure Commission (GIIC). Headed by the president of Mitsubishi, the chair of EDS, and the vice chair of Siemens Corporation, the GIIC intends to create a conglomerate of interests powerful enough to subsume government interest in the regulation of biometric and other technologies. The effort is being funded to a large extent by the World Bank.=20 Governments in 26 countries are, at this moment, monitoring and cooperating with project FAST (Future Automated Screening for Travelers). FAST was first piloted in 1993 by US immigration authorities when a new lane at New York's John F. Kennedy airport was opened. The technology for the system is known as INPASS (Immigration and Natur-alization Service Passenger Accelerated Service System) which is a biometric identification system used to expedite passengers through customs at international airports in as little as 20 seconds.=20 Applicants for registration with FAST are interviewed, and identity confirmed. Hand prints are taken, converted to a template and stored digitally on a smart card. Once the last of five green lights appear at the tips of the fingers, the glass exit door opens and the passenger continues to the baggage claim and customs zone. The system is currently a voluntary trial for frequent travellers to and from the USA who are US or Canadian nationals. =20 With new technology, travelers can rest assured that their security is always in good hands. The US Militech Corporation has developed a Passive Millimeter Wave Imaging system, which can scan people from up to 12 feet away and see through clothing to detect concealed items such as weapons, packages and other contraband. Variations of this through-clothing human screening are under development by companies such as the US Raytheon Corporation, and will be an irresistible addition to international airports everywhere.=20 Once upon a time, surveillance was targeted at certain groups and individuals. In our time, surveillance occurs en masse. Much of the `harmless' computer based technology necessary for our daily lives could actually be used to keep the entire population under surveillance. =20 Telephone systems lend themselves to a dual role as a national interceptions network, according to "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control". For example, the message switching system used on digital exchanges like System X in the UK, supports an Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN) Protocol. This allows digital devices, e.g. faxes, to share the system with existing lines. The ISDN subset is defined in their documents as "Signaling CCITT"-series interface for ISDN access. =20 What is not widely known is that built-in to the international CCITT protocol is the ability to take phones `off hook' and listen into conversations occurring near the phone, without the user being aware that it is happening. This effectively means that a national dial up telephone tapping capacity is built into these systems from the start. Further, the digital technology required to pinpoint mobile phone users for incoming calls means that all mobile phones in a country when activated, are mini-tracking devices.=20 The issues surrounding the uncontrolled and unregulated spread of tyrannical technology are immediate and ongoing. The technologies of repression that are trialed in so-called non-democratic countries are now being aggressively marketed in the West, while Hitler's Germany becomes a vague memory. It is up to us to do what ever we can to stop the insidious spread of this technology, and to demand the right to choose whether we participate in the biometric system or not. We should ask ourselves... who will heed our cry for help once these technologies are fully implemented? =20 REFERENCES=20 Davies, Simon, "Touching Big Brother", Information Technology People, Vol 7, No 4, 1994=20 Elllerman, Sarah, "The Rise of Tempest", Internet Underground Magazine, June 1996.=20 European Parliament, Scientific and Technical Operations Assessment, 1998, "An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control", available at http://jya.com/stoa-atpc.com=20 Jane's US Military R & D, "Human Computer Interface, Vol 1, Issue 3 1997=20 O'Sullivan, Olara, "Biometrics comes to Life", http://www.banking.com/aba/cover_0197.htm=20 Privacy International, 1995, "Big Brother Incorporated", http://www.privacy.org/pi=20 US Scientific Advisory Board, "New World Vistas", the proceedings of Fiftieth Anniversary Symposium of the USAF SAB, November 10, 1994, (republished by International Committee for the Convention Against Offensive Microwave Weapons).=20 Susan Bryce is an investigative journalist and researcher whose interests include issues which affect individual freedom, environmental health, surveillance technology and global politics. She can be contacted c/- Mapleton Post Office, QLD 4560 **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 7 15:08:02 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:08:02 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.10: Washington to Seek Public's Advice on EU Privacy Laws Message-ID: <199811072128.NAA19713@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.10: Washington to Seek Public's Advice on EU Privacy Laws Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:29:18 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.10: Washington to Seek Public's Advice on EU Privacy Laws News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Thursday November 5, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: Fox News, November 4, 1998 http://www.foxnews.com U.S. Negotiators Ask For Public Feedback in Talks With Europe Over Privacy Law http://www.foxnews.com/js_index.sml?content=/news/wires2/1104/n_ap_1104_334 .sml NEW YORK � Raising the stakes in its talks with Europe over a new privacy law there, the Commerce Department on Wednesday publicly reaffirmed a laissez-faire approach toward protecting personal privacy that remains at odds on key positions taken by European negotiators. The Commerce Department released a statement for public feedback that details its basic position in the talks. The talks attempt to resolve deep differences over a sweeping European privacy measure that has the potential to disrupt some commerce with the United States. The law took effect on Oct. 26, but sanctions were suspended while the talks go on. U.S. firms from global drug makers to direct marketers doing business in Europe fear the new directive could bar them from using customers' confidential information for everything from valuable scientific research to junk mail, stifling business commerce. In its position paper, the U.S. reiterated its view that U.S. companies should not be forced to give people access to personal information about themselves. In addition, companies should have the option to choose an independent industry group to police its privacy policies, instead of a government body, as required by the European law. "For now, we're trying to get (Europe's) reaction to these principles themselves,'' said David Aaron, under secretary of Commerce. Aaron said the United States wants to give companies "safe harbors'' to satisfy privacy protection demands. Some experts said the government's seeking of public comment could suggest that the United States may seek to modify its position if enough people favor the European approach. "This is significant because it is the first time that the Commerce Department has asked for public comment on its negotiating position with the European Union,'' said Joel Reidenberg, a law professor at Fordham University and an expert on U.S.-Europe relations. A Commerce Department spokeswoman said the principles would be posted on its Web site. � 1998, News America Digital Publishing, Inc. d/b/a Fox Market Wire. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 7 15:09:21 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:09:21 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.17: FCC Accepting Comments on Mandatory Cell Phone Tracking Message-ID: <199811072128.NAA19757@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.17: FCC Accepting Comments on Mandatory Cell Phone Tracking Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:26:49 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.17: FCC Accepting Comments on Mandatory Cell Phone Tracking News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday November 6, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Part One: This From: Coalition for Constitutional Liberties, Weekly Update for 11/06/98 Volume I, Number 37 http://www.freecongress.org/cfcl/latest.htm Comment Period for CALEA Wiretapping Regulations Announced The Federal Communications Commission announced this week that it would be accepting comments in response to its Notice of Proposed Rule Making until December 14th. The Commission proposed requiring cellular and other wireless phone companies to track the location of their customers, identifying the cell site at the beginning and end of every call. Weekly Update readers and organizations are encouraged to submit their written comments to the FCC: Federal Communications Commission 1919 M St. Washington, DC 20554 Re: Docket # 97-213 The Center for Democracy and Technology has set up a website for those interested in filing comments: http://www.cdt.org/action/filing.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Part Two: This From: The Center for Democracy and Technology, October 28, 1998 http://www.cdt.org FCC PROPOSES LOCATION TRACKING FOR WIRELESS PHONES http://www.cdt.org/action/filing.html As the FBI has realized, new communications technology can be designed in ways that vastly increase the potential for government surveillance. Cellular and other wireless phones can generate information that can be used to locate individuals even if they aren't suspected of a crime. The FCC, with urging from the FBI, is considering a proposal to use your cellphone as a personal tracking device. This unprecedented attack on your privacy must be opposed. Cellular phones have become integral to many peoples' lives. Over fifty million ordinary Americans carry cellular phones with them as they go about their daily activities. Cellular phones are far more closely linked to an individual than are wireline phones. In essense, a cellular phone can become a tracking device, revealing to the government far more about your whereabouts, your associations, and your activities than the government can learn about you from the fact that your home phone was used to make a call a particular time of day. In 1994, when this topic was being debated in Congress, FBI Director Freeh testified that location information was not mandated by law. FBI Director Freeh testified that the law, "does not include any information which might disclose the general location of a mobile facility or service." Congress wanted to protect privacy, and took the FBI at its word that it would not seek to use cellphones as citizen tracking devices. Now the FCC, with urging from the FBI, is proposing to rewrite the law, requiring location information as part of a nationwide surveillance capability. This will allow the FBI to use your cellphone as a personal tracking device. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From wwwnet65 at mailexcite.com Sun Nov 8 07:41:19 1998 From: wwwnet65 at mailexcite.com (wwwnet65 at mailexcite.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:41:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Advertise to Millions On-Line...New WWW Marketing Package Message-ID: <199811081541.HAA29750@toad.com> To automatically be removed from all future mailings please reply with "Remove" in the subject heading. ----------------------------------------- Keep reading to find out how you can...Reach MILLIONS of potential Customers Overnight! 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Message-ID: Hi there, I saw an article posted about "shortages" of electric power generators and other Y2K "survival" goods, such as grains in airtight drums. My reading of the article gave me a feel that those products are bullshit products geared towards naive losers, and can be easily replaced with much cheaper products that can be bought at discount stores. More careful reading of the article showed that only certain high power diesel generators are scarce. A visit to my local discount retailer has shown that there are 10KW gasoline generators available for as little as $500. 10KW is far more than I would need in an emergency. (I will probably need about 2KW). Questions: 1) Aside from probably lower power, are those cheaper generators somehow worse? 2) How reliable are those cheaper generators? 3) What is their expected lifetime, in hours of operation? 4) How hard is it to service them? 5) How do you connect them to the electric system, to properly use them as backup? (this may be a stupid question, but I am not very familiar with American system of electric wiring). 6) How much gasoline do they consume if you draw 2KW power from them? Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);} \=/, _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_ | @___oo ( )_ /\ /\ / (___,,,}_--= ) ) /^\) ^\/ _) =__ Anything is good and useful if ) ) /^\/ _) (_ ) ) _ / / _) ( it's made of chocolate. ) /\ )/\/ || | )_) (_ ) < > |(,,) )__) ( http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov ) || / \)___)\ (_ _) | \____( )___) )___ -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___== \______(_______;;; __;;; From stuffed at stuffed.net Sun Nov 8 08:50:35 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED SUN NOV 8) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 08:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981108081000.9047.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + ADULT INTERNET XXX + BONEME.COM + EARTHQUAKE NUDE WOMEN + SIMPLY STUNNING + HENTAI BIJUTU + ULTIMATE SLUTS + TABBY'S 007 PUSSY + MASTURB8 + INSTANT BONER + EROTICA EXOTICA + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/25388.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/24585.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/1257.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/2462.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/27831.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 7 17:42:46 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:42:46 +0800 Subject: ISPs now responsible for Pirated Material In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 07:29:38 -0500 >To: general at la-ma.org >From: Doug Krick >Subject: ISPs now responsible for Pirated Material >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Sender: owner-general at la-ma.org >Precedence: bulk > >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28357,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh > >Summary: IF a local ISP doesn't register with the goverment, per a new law >Clinton signed this week, the ISP can be held legally responsible for any >pirated material that may be on their site. Not really a problem. Its one thing to require a contact person. It's quite another to get an ISP to provide sufficient resources to adequately police its feed. In many of the Usenet .warez. groups, for example, postings expire after only a few hours/days. By the time action is taken its gone anyway. The ISPs made a very good argument, in the SC CDA hearings, that policing their feeds and access was impractical. Sounds like this could be pretty much the same problem. I wonder how Eternity servers, using Usenet references, would be treated under these regs? --Steve From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 7 17:42:59 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:42:59 +0800 Subject: [E-CARM] Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: c3po.kc-inc.net: majordomo set sender to owner-e-carm at lists.kc-inc.net using -f Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:52:59 -0200 (EDT) From: Ed Gerck To: Robert Hettinga cc: E-CARM , DIGSIG at LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU Subject: Re: [E-CARM] Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-e-carm at c3po.kc-inc.net Precedence: bulk On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Robert Hettinga wrote: >Don't blame me, blame the remailer? Bob: If the e-mail below was forwarded through you, it means that you thought it is useful to these lists and that you also found some nexus in the argument line used by the, huh... author. However, neither you nor the huh... author seem to hold a steady line of argument, as of course, you are indeed to be blamed without recourse for this piece of tasteless non-sense being further reproduced on the Net. My intent with my original posting (available at http://www.mcg.org.br/antinomy.txt, as proof) was NOT to criticize the Clinton administration on an initiative which is in accord with current practices worldwide -- but to show that there is a better and privacy-protecting solution when identification is modelled using coherence functions. Further, my intent was to show that biometrics is perishable and not self-secure, which reasons alone would seem to rule it out in the case. THUS, MY SOLE REASON FOR THIS REJOINDER IS TO MAKE THAT CLEAR. However, the Net is an amplifier -- it just provides raw power. The question is how it is used. You and I have duly performed our duties as estimulated emission sources, albeit with different filter functions. Cheers, Ed Gerck. > >Cheers, >Bob Hettinga > >--- begin forwarded text > > >Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:26:24 +0100 >From: Anonymous >Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above. > It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software. > Please report problems or inappropriate use to the > remailer administrator at . >Subject: Identification and Privacy are not Antinomies >To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Precedence: first-class >Reply-To: Anonymous >X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > >Aaww horseplops[1]! In fact, great, festering, mid-path, sole-sticking >horseplops! This argument is vacuous. As every small child knows, >authentication != identification and, in most cases, only authentication >is required and, the absence of identification implies privacy. > >Am I a UK citizen, a good credit risk, a club member in good >standing, etc. An appropriate mechanism, a smartcard, can easily >authenticate both itself (challenge-response) and the bearer via a biometric >and/or PIN without revealing the identity of the holder. > >However, who holds out hope that such a sensible >thing would ever be adopted by the powers-that-be. > >Nematode > >[1] The plop is a useful measure of human cogitation. As every small child >knows, much good thinking is done whilst enthroned on the commode, since >the evacuation of feces from the anus promotes the introduction of fresh >material into the brain through the ears. After years of experimentation >and careful measurement, we (the ISO labs) have observed a strong correlation >between ideas and fecal bombardment of the receptive commodal pool and audible >emissions therefrom. For example, it required only 0.3 plops to decide to vote >for Clinton while a similar decision in favor of John Major required almost >5 plops. >For the purposes of comparison, 10^6 homosapiens plop = 1 horseplop. While the >relationship between megaplops, flops and MIPS is not yet clear, our >ISO plop standard should be emitted soon. > >-----BEGIN PLOP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PLOP for Personal Privacy >Charset: nocommode > >NSACIAMOUSEaw6mkJhRWnHTzAQFMlgP/ZMM+14qUzy+w6AGSlOtAyrE2BBDSV3Hm >Tlc0Ct7wyXV2CPEMzieCm4ZS0rzigkgTZTMCmEqYexEJkdSAU60WMHm3cr28UJIG >ekx7N7aWKQ34u05dRrE+IVR329y0ia/2F8B7edZ7CqoydOJAnQxNIB1qohlCGlGT >RYgOGVSpO04= >=MF1K >-----END PLOP SIGNATURE----- > >--- end forwarded text > > >----------------- >Robert A. Hettinga >Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' >=========================================================================== >Help with Majordomo commands plus list archives and information is >available through the E-CARM web page at http://www.kc-inc.net/e-carm/. >Sponsored by The Knowledge Connection. >=========================================================================== > ______________________________________________________________________ Dr.rer.nat. E. Gerck egerck at novaware.cps.softex.br http://novaware.cps.softex.br =========================================================================== Help with Majordomo commands plus list archives and information is available through the E-CARM web page at http://www.kc-inc.net/e-carm/. Sponsored by The Knowledge Connection. =========================================================================== --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From davidwatts_98 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 18:48:30 1998 From: davidwatts_98 at yahoo.com (David Watts) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:48:30 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... Message-ID: <19981108022534.28767.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Here's the definition of ISP in the legislation (H.R. 2281 at http://thomas.loc.gov). `(1) SERVICE PROVIDER- (A) As used in subsection (a), the term `service provider' means an entity offering the transmission, routing, or providing of connections for digital online communications, between or among points specified by a user, of material of the user's choosing, without modification to the content of the material as sent or received. `(B) As used in this section, other than subsection (a), the term `service provider' means a provider of online services or network access, or the operator of facilities therefor, and includes an entity described in subparagraph (A). Subsection (a) deals with limiting ISP liability for transmitting infringing material. Other subsections deal with caching, hosting, linking, taking down infringing material, liability for those who knowingly misrepresent that material is infringing, and rights of copyright owners to subpoena ISPs for identification information of alleged infringers. The requirement to register with the Copyright Office and designate a contact person applies only as to liability for hosted material. However, in order to be eligible for any of the liability limitations, ISPs must meet the following conditions: `(i) CONDITIONS FOR ELIGIBILITY- `(1) ACCOMMODATION OF TECHNOLOGY- The limitations on liability established by this section shall apply to a service provider only if the service provider-- `(A) has adopted and reasonably implemented, and informs subscribers and account holders of the service provider's system or network of, a policy that provides for the termination in appropriate circumstances of subscribers and account holders of the service provider's system or network who are repeat infringers; and `(B) accommodates and does not interfere with standard technical measures. `(2) DEFINITION- As used in this subsection, the term `standard technical measures' means technical measures that are used by copyright owners to identify or protect copyrighted works and-- `(A) have been developed pursuant to a broad consensus of copyright owners and service providers in an open, fair, voluntary, multi-industry standards process; `(B) are available to any person on reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms; and `(C) do not impose substantial costs on service providers or substantial burdens on their systems or networks. ---phelix at vallnet.com wrote: > > On 7 Nov 1998 13:50:20 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > >Would such a commercial entity require registry to be protected? > > A more interesting question is whether anonymous remailers will need to > register. I suspect that there will be a challenge to this law that will > lead judges to define what an ISP is. That definition will problably be > something like: > > Any service that allows users to connect to, send, or receive > information to/from other sites or any site acting as a conduit for users > to communicate with others. > > Already, companies like Newscene and Newsguy (usenet only services) believe > that they will need to register, though they aren't technically ISPs, as > most people would think of them. > > Is an anymous remailer needs to register, what will the implications be? > > -- Phelix > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From bix at geekforce.org Sat Nov 7 18:48:30 1998 From: bix at geekforce.org (b!X) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:48:30 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... In-Reply-To: <3646ba82.49389892@news> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 phelix at vallnet.com wrote: > Is an anymous remailer needs to register, what will the implications be? Ok, if there's been a URL posted explaining what the law says about registration, I missed it. Being an owner of a cybercafe, I imagine I should see what the law has to say. - b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Sat Nov 7 19:01:13 1998 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:01:13 +0800 Subject: Blind signal demodulation Message-ID: <91049302221713@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> The October 1993 Proceedings of the IEEE contain a number of rather interesting articles on blind signal identification and demodulation, which may be described roughly as "demodulation without the cooperation of the transmitter (or intended receiver where this might be necessary)". The first article in particular goes into some detail on how to acquire QAM signals used in modems, including a neat diagram on p.1919 of a 64-QAM constellation through the various stages of acquisition by a blind demodulator. The blind demodulation comletely bypasses the need for an initial training stage, acquiring the necessary signal-processing details on the fly. The article finishes with overviews of typical hardware used for blind demodulation of QAM signals, including a multi-protocol DSP card with with 8 320C50's capable of blind demodulation of anything from 24 2400bps signals up through 8 V.34 ones, as well as an ASIC for blind demodulation of digital cable TV signals. They also comment that blind decoders for typical voiceband signals can be implemented on Pentium MMX/UltraSparc-grade hardware. This is interesting reading, and should lay to rest the UL that high-speed modems have some sort of magic immunity to interception which the lower-speed ones don't. Oh yes, the introduction makes the observation that this sort of stuff is "rarely mentioned in the open literature". It's not hard to see why. Peter. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 7 19:41:31 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:41:31 +0800 Subject: Electric power generators ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:52 PM -0800 11/7/98, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >1) Aside from probably lower power, are those cheaper generators somehow >worse? > >2) How reliable are those cheaper generators? > >3) What is their expected lifetime, in hours of operation? > >4) How hard is it to service them? The answer to all of the above is that the nickname for Briggs and Stratton engines, the ones commonly found in the $500 generators sold by local hardware and home supply stores, is "Breaks and Scrap 'Em." Coleman and Generac generators are notorious for short running life. See misc.survivalism for many comments, including comments by equipment rental folks, who say the Coleman, Generac, and other B & S or Tecumseh-based generators have low lifetimes. If one's need is for very short-term, occasional use, the B & S-based generators are OK. Cheap, that's for sure. Better engines are Honda and Kohler (and a few of the Coleman generators are now starting to feature Honda overhead valve (OHV) engines. Again, look to misc.survivalism, not the Cypherpunks list! >5) How do you connect them to the electric system, to properly use >them as backup? (this may be a stupid question, but I am not very >familiar with American system of electric wiring). See above. Also, use the Web. >6) How much gasoline do they consume if you draw 2KW power from them? > My Honda 2.5 KW generator is rated at consuming one third of a gallon per hour. A 3-gallon tank running for 9 hours. I haven't done exhaustive tests, but this is, so far, about what I am seeing. All of this is contained in manfacturers specs, available on the Web and commented upon in groups like misc.survivalism. Cypherpunks is not a good place to ask. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 7 20:33:34 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:33:34 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811080408.WAA04069@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:25:34 -0800 (PST) > From: David Watts > Subject: Re: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... > `(1) SERVICE PROVIDER- (A) As used in subsection (a), the term > `service provider' means an entity offering the transmission, > routing, or providing of connections for digital online > communications, between or among points specified by a user, of > material of the user's choosing, without modification to the content > of the material as sent or received. > > `(B) As used in this section, other than subsection (a), the term > `service provider' means a provider of online services or network > access, or the operator of facilities therefor, and includes an entity > described in subparagraph (A). That pretty much covers anyone other than a end-user/subscriber. This means anonymous remailers, mailing list hosting services, email services, etc. > Subsection (a) deals with limiting ISP liability for transmitting > infringing material. Other subsections deal with caching, hosting, > linking, taking down infringing material, liability for those who > knowingly misrepresent that material is infringing, and rights of > copyright owners to subpoena ISPs for identification information of > alleged infringers. The requirement to register with the Copyright > Office and designate a contact person applies only as to liability for > hosted material. Does 'hosted material' mean material that is put up by the ISP itself or does it also include material made available by subscribers? > However, in order to be eligible for any of the > liability limitations, ISPs must meet the following conditions: Ah, so there's more than simple registration... > `(i) CONDITIONS FOR ELIGIBILITY- > > `(1) ACCOMMODATION OF TECHNOLOGY- The limitations on > liability established by this section shall apply to a service > provider only if the service provider-- > > `(A) has adopted and reasonably implemented, and informs > subscribers and account holders of the service provider's system or > network of, a policy that provides for the termination in appropriate > circumstances of > subscribers and account holders of the service provider's system or > network who are repeat infringers; and Wait a second, I'm no cop. If somebody places copyrighted material on SSZ for example I can see bringing suite against that party, but forcing me to punish them by removing their account is over the line. Do I get restitution for lost services from the copyright holder since I'm acting as their agent? > `(B) accommodates and does not interfere with standard > technical measures. > > `(2) DEFINITION- As used in this subsection, the term > `standard technical measures' means technical measures that are used > by copyright owners to identify or protect copyrighted works and-- > > `(A) have been developed pursuant to a broad consensus of > copyright owners and service providers in an open, fair, voluntary, > multi-industry standards process; So this is voluntary? > `(B) are available to any person on reasonable and > nondiscriminatory terms; and Meaning they themselves aren't copyrighted? > `(C) do not impose substantial costs on service providers or > substantial burdens on their systems or > networks. Imposition of *any* cost is a substantial burden. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 7 20:57:00 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:57:00 +0800 Subject: IP: Discover Alien Life With Your PC And SETI In-Reply-To: <199811072128.NAA19768@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that if I were an alien civilization and wanted to send out a beacon, in as wide an angle as possible, across the vast reaches of space and overcome as much of the path losses as possible using the least energy I certainly wouldn't use a narrow band signal. Quite the contrary, I'd want to spread a low bandwidth information signal across the widest practical spectrum. Its much easier to increase process gain (the ratio of the baseband information signal to the final carrier bandwidth) than transmit power. While a narrow band signal from Arecibo's powerful transmitter/antenna combination can be detected at a distance of about 300 light years. It subtends a very small angle greatly reducing the likelyhood of contact. Switching to a spread spectrum approach could allow broadening the antenna pattern, and thereby its chances of detection, significantly without reducing its effective range. Notice how 63 dB (or over 2,000,000 fold effective increase in transmit power) of process gain enables handheld GPS receivers to pull in signals from satellites, sent using only a few watts of transmit power, without much of an antenna. If all this seems to make sense, then why are the SETI people apparently seaching the skies with lots of narrow band receivers? They don't seem to be employing any broadband correlator techniques, so spread signals will probably be missed. --Steve From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 7 20:57:02 1998 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:57:02 +0800 Subject: Grounding (fwd) Message-ID: <19981108044003.6326.qmail@nym.alias.net> It seems so pointless to correct Choate. The guy is almost totally impervious to enlightenment. But a couple of whoppers have to be pointed out... > Secondly, you're considering an electron carrying a photon as a > single wavicle, it ain't. It's a superposition of several wavicles (3 quarks > and a lepton to be exact under the standard model). Electrons don't "carry" photons. An atom can absorb a photon, raising an electron to a higher energy level, but the photon is then gone. And a single moving electron certainly doesn't carry a photon. Photons move at the speed of light, always. Quarks are constituents only of baryons. There are no quarks in electrons or photons. Choate's bizarre description of a "spark gap" inside a conductive globe culminates with this: > Unlike charges attract. Therefore the gas of electrons are attracted to the > inside surface. Now since the globe is neutral it must follow by > conservation of charge that there is a negative charge equal to the charge > held in the gas on the *OUTSIDE* of the ball. The net charge within the sphere will not change. If the box in the middle with the "spark gap" is spraying out electrons, this can only mean that the box is itself becoming positively charged. The sphere sees a constant charge within itself; at best, the charge can be redistributed. There are no net changes of charge within the sphere and so there will be no changes in any charge appearing on the outside of the sphere. Choate's whole model of how a spark gap transmitter works, and why it emits electromagnetic radiation, is so bizarre that it is hard to believe. Someone else can bang their head against the brick wall of his ignorance on that topic. Choate is, by far, the worst poster on the cypherpunks list today. He posts off-topic material, he is argumentative, and 90% of the time, he is simply wrong. From mah248 at nyu.edu Sat Nov 7 21:27:06 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:27:06 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811071710.LAA02112@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <364529A2.F4C8E9C9@nyu.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 01:33:18 -0500 > > From: Michael Hohensee > > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) > > > No government can protect individual rights. > > That isn't a reasonable statement. There is nothing in the definition or > application of 'government' or 'individual rights' that preclude this. The > issue becomes in a practical sense how the practitioners of a government > system respect individual rights. If they are willing to do away with them > to protect them (as we seem to be moving toward in this country) then of > course there are no individual rights. You missed my point. What I'm trying to point out is that no government (or any other body, for that matter) can prevent someone from doing something. All the state can do (and does, if you look closely) is offer to punish anyone who disobeys it. It doesn't matter whether that state is protecting individual rights or not --it can only punish, not prevent. > Of course, this implies there are no collective rights either. Correct. There are none. There are no collectives, only groups comprised of individuals. Therefore it would be meaningless to speak of "collective" rights. > > The only way one could do > > so would be if it: (a) could predict the future, and act to prevent > > certain futures from happening; or (b) it controls every aspect and > > motion of each individual's life, thereby ensuring that nobody steps out > > of line. > > What has that to do with protecting individual rights? Clarify please. I'm explaining why it is impossible for the state to protect individual rights. I offer two mechanisms by which the state *could* _protect_ individual rights, and then point out why they are impossible. It is something of a strawman argument, but if you disagree, I'm willing to tear down any mechanism you might propose. :) > > All any state can do is threaten to "retaliate" against (why not just > > say "attack") people who disobey its edicts. In order for this threat > > to be credible, the state must wield sufficient power to kill any > > individual (or group of individuals) who would stand against it. If it > > does not have this power, it cannot govern. > > This is a quaint and completely artificial distinction. Is it really? Then could you please explain to me exactly why I would have to pay taxes (or otherwise make submission) to a state which did *not* have the power to kill me? If it lacks this power --and I mean this in a physical sense, not a legal one-- then what is to stop me or anyone else from telling it to fuck off? Such a state cannot govern those who do not wish to be governed, and so would not be a government. > > The problem is, if it does > > have this power, then there is nothing to stop those individuals in > > control of the state from violating the individual rights of its > > citizens. As often seems the case today, for example. > > We also see quite a few situations where the opposite occurs as well. Occasionally, yes. The state does not yet have absolute power, or does not yet choose to wield it fully in all situations. But we've already got an impressive list in the USA alone. We've had Ruby Ridge, we've had Waco, the countless raids on the homes of innocent people in the name of the drug war (and the countless raids on the homes of innocent drug-addicts, for that matter). > > The system you suggest, which I assume consists of a state with a > > "minimal" amount of power, run by enlightened people, is in a state of > > Anyone who assumes noble oblige is an idiot. There are no enlightened > people, intelligence and wealth no more prepare an individual for a > position in government than they prepare them for anything else. > Rich/intelligent people don't make less mistakes than those who aren't. Correct, which is the main reason that we cannot trust a state in any shape or form, regardless of how good the people running it may seem. > > extremely unstable equilibrium (if it is indeed in equilibrium). If it > > If you're talking of Hayek's equilibrium, it's nothing more than a > bastardization of a thermodynamics term to represent the status quo. > Equilabrium in the economic sense simply means that people do today what > they did yesterday. In general they do about as often as they don't. Actually, I wasn't thinking of Hayek at all. ;) I was just pointing out that a "benign" state, even if it were possible to create one (which, as you pointed out in your last paragraph, is impossible), would not stay benign very long. Economics is not discussed in this portion of the argument. > > wields just enough power to enforce its will, that power can be used by > > evil men to increase its power. > > Evil? Where did religion come into this at? Forgive me, I was trying to shorten the sentence a bit, and assumed that "evil men" would be understood to refer to those men (and women) who wish to rule other people, for whatever reason. Your personal definition of evil may vary. Can we agree that it is wrong to rule others? This is the fundamental distinction which sets us apart from the statists. > > Just look at what happened after the Constitutional coup took place in > > the fledgling USA. Remember the Whiskey Rebellion? When we lost the > > Articles of Confederation, we were taking the first steps down the road > > to the tyranny of today. The anti-federalists predicted this, although > > they sorely underestimated how far it would go --assuming that it would > > be stopped by another revolution. > > There have been several since then. The Civil War and the civil rights > movement in the 60's are two good examples (on the opposite end of the > 'use-of-violence' scales). The war of northern aggression is more of a reverse revolution, from this standpoint. The south peacefully left the union, and the north reconquered it. It's roughly analogous to what would have happened had the british won the american revolution. As for the civil rights movement; it just goes to show that not *everything* that happened after 1776 was a bad thing. > > The minimalist state has been tried. > > No, that was a non-federalist state where the individual states acted as > individuals in a collective. Because of the collective nature of the state > governments it didn't work. A minimalist state would be anarchy. Not by the definition of a state given above. The minimalist state must wield sufficient power to rule those who would disobey its edicts, otherwise it's not a state --just a bunch of losers who dress pompously and issue meaningless proclaimations. Anarchy is the *absence* of the state. > > The only truly free system is one in which there is no body of people > > calling itself a government which can enforce its will over the > > individual. The only way people can seem to be free living under such a > > body is entirely dependent upon the good will of their masters, and this > > is a shaky assumption to make. > > No it isn't the only way. The only way is to clearly define the duties of > each level of government and build a system of checks and balances that > prohibit them from moving outside their domains. A good first attempt at > this was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (in particular 9 & 10). > The problem is that there are individuals who don't want to be limited in > their authority. It's a person problem not a government problem. You are proposing a means of setting up a benign government. For it to be a government, it must wield sufficient power to rule. For it to be benign, it must be run by "good" men (i.e. those who will not use the state to increase their personal power). But as you pointed out, it is foolish to trust that the state will be run by such individuals, regardless of who they are. Thus it would seem that it is impossible to create a benign state. Thus we should avoid having one. > > How about: Any action that involves the initiation of force against the > > property of another person (the person belongs to himself, of course) is > > immoral. > > Morality? Why do you keep bringing religion and individual beliefs into it? I used the word because the person I responded to used it. Exactly what is considered "immoral" does of course vary from person to person. Perhaps a better word would be "wrong", "antisocial", "socially unacceptable", or perhaps "not to be tolerated". > A person is, they don't belong to anyone. No, a person belongs to him or herself. *Someone* is directing my actions, and guess what: it's me. I choose what I will and will not do. I choose what I say. I choose what I think. I belong to me. > It should be: > > Any act that harms a person or their property without their prior permission > is a crime. Correct. It is wrong to initiate force against another person or their property. It is of course no problem if the person owning the property gives you permission to harm it. Then it's not initiation of force. > There are no exceptions other than immediate personal self > defence, which terminates upon the application of minimal force to guarantee > the threat will not reoccur (in many cases this means kill the attacker). > This should apply to all individuals participating in a governmental role as > well. I agree. This more detailed explaination of how much force should be applied in response to an attack. It should be small enough to ensure that you don't accidentially end up looking like you're in the wrong afterwards, and large enough to ensure that there *is* an afterwards. ;) > > This neatly tidies up the obvious question of exactly what "individual > > rights" are. There's a partial list of them in the bill of rights, but > > it is not complete, by its own admission. > > By it's own admission they are protected from denial by the 9th and 10th so > they don't need to be listed (unlike the 10th lists the duties of the > government system). The problem is conservatives and liberals alike don't > respect those boundaries. They want more. Correct. No state can be benign if it is run by corrupt individuals. This is another example which supports the idea that the state is a bad idea. > > Furthermore, the above > > definition excludes such dubious rights as the "right to an education", > > the "right to welfare", etc. > > Now you're doing exactly what you are complaining about. Your defining others > rights when you don't want them defining yours. No, I'm describing what are obviously *not* rights. If someone has a "right" to an education, then that means that he has a right to get it whether or not he can pay for it. That is, if he can't pay for it, he has the right to take money which belongs to other people (i.e. steal the property of others). (either that or he has the right to a "free" education, which translates to him having a right to make someone teach him without compensation, which is also theft). The same argument applies to welfare. If you do not agree, then what you said about it being wrong to harm another person or that person's property without their consent is sheer hypocrisy. > People may very well have a right to welfare and an education (I believe > people have a civil right to medical and legal advice gratis - stems from > the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness). The issue isn't that. The > issue is *what are the duties of the government as defined in its charter*. > If those duties are not in there (and they're not) then it shouldn't be > doing it without an amendment from the charter. So, you're saying that you're a statist? :/ > > All of the above involve the initiation (or threat of initiation) of > > force. Hence they are immoral, and the victims and any bystanders would > > be morally justified in using force against the initiators. Of course, > > this would not be true in a governed society, where the state must hold > > a monopoly on the use of force, if only to maintain its own position. > > Much less efficient. > > Go read the Constitution, it's true here in our governemnt though many > people don't want it to be so. As a result they find all kinds of childish > and inane reasons to deny the obvious. > > Like it or not the federal governments panapoly of current powers are as > vacous as the king is naked. > > It's like executive orders, unless you happen to work for the executive > branch they aren't worth the paper they're written on. Why? Because at no > point is the office of President given this authority over anyone other than > executive branch employees. He has no more authority to dictate general > behaviour via that mechanism than you or I do - zero. Per the 10th there is > not one sentence in the Constitution that delegates that authority to the > office. In a strictly legal sense, you are correct. In reality, however, things are slightly different, since there is a large supply of men with guns who are apparently willing to execute these legally unjustified orders --and me, if I get in their way. When I talk about power, I'm not talking about namby-pamby _legal_ power. I'm talking about raw *physical* power. From a practical point of view, what's written on a piece of paper is irrelevant if I'm confronted with armed men who are willing to ignore it. > > We've all got our pet peeves. Would you like to live under mine? Would > > I like to live under yours? Can I trust you to be tolerant? Can I > > trust your successors, 20 years from now? Can my descendants trust > > subsequent successors, 200 years later? Experience tends to show the > > contrary. > > There is more at stake than toleration or trust. You paint with too narrow a > brush. If you're saying we should have anarchy then you're as kooky as the > people who don't literaly interpret the Constitution. Why? Is it insane not to trust in the state? *You yourself* have pointed out why we cannot trust those organizations called states. If I'm insane, you appear to be schizophrenic. ;) > > The anarcho-capitalist free market is not one where "everything goes," > > and there is indeed a strong concept of individual rights. What is > > moral and not moral is defined by society on an individual basis. The > > first and only rule is: > > First, it is one of everything-goes because there is no mechanism that will > stop anybody from doing anything. There are NO concepts of *rights* in such > a system, let alone individual rights. If anything the only rights are who > has the capitalist backing to stave off the anarchic forces. That's not > justice, equality, or respect for rights. You are forgetting *social* mechanisms. You are assuming that everyone won't care if one of their friends is hurt. You are assuming that people will never take action against those who they percieve to be threatening or harming them or their friends. These assumptions are *invalid*. > > No one has the right to initiate force against another or another's > > property. > > Attack me with your body and property and watch it happen junior. You misunderstand what is meant by the "initiation of force". If I were to attack you, it would be I who would be initiating force, not you. The force you use in response to my initiation of force would not have initiated the conflict, thus you are not initiating force. > > This is the fundamental and only "social contract" we make. Anyone who > > disagrees with this is obviously antisocial, and nobody's going to want > > to live with him (or allow him to continue living, if he attacks > > someone). > > Oh bullshit. There is much more involved like not stealing which isn't the > use of force and allowed by your anarcho-capatilism as well as your > definition of valid use of force above. > > It's gibberish. Nope. Theft is an initation of force against my property. If I happen to be there, it would usually involve the initiation of force against me, as I would probably desire to keep my property. > > >From this, morality follows. If X does Y to Z, and if Y is perceived as > > immoral, then X is not going to be very popular with Z or anyone else, > > unless he can make amends. No one will want to trade with him, be near > > him, etc. This is a very strong motive to avoid doing immoral things. > > Will you get religion the hell out of here please. Again, I apologize for using the word "morality", since it obviously triggers your religion button. > Y is obviously popular > with X or else they wouldn't have used it. It further follows that there are > more than one X-type out there. So your premise falls down on its face in > the dirt. Afraid not. Just because there's more than one X out there doesn't mean that Y is still a good thing to do. If there is a sufficient number of Z's who are willing to ostracize any X who does Y, then X is given a strong motivation to not do Y, lest X end up starving and alone. If, however, very few people consider Y immoral, then X will have no problems. Any Z's who treat X badly for Y will tend to be shunned by X and his friends, putting pressure on the Z's to mind their own business. This an example of a negative feedback loop --in stark contrast to the positive feedback associated with the level of corruption in a state. > > If Y is really nasty, such as the initiation of force, then X is going > > to be in *deep* trouble. > > With who? In an anarcho-capitalist society as you paint it the optimal strategy > is to allow others to reduce your competition opening up the market for you. No, I never painted it that way. This is what *you* associate with anarcho-capitalism. > Let's take an example. Imagine we live on a street and we notice a person > going from house to house down the other side of the street. What is our > optimal strategy? It isn't to call the cops (there aren't any) and it isn't > to immediately kill the intruder (it isn't our property after all) since > there is an opportunity to make a considerable gain here improving our > status in the society as a whole. The optimal strategy is to wait and let > this bozo kill our neighbors up to our house and *then* kill the intruder. > At that point we have just inhereted an entire street of houses and its > included properties. You put up a fence across each end of the street and > wallah, your own little fifedom. If you're really lucky something similar > will happen on the next street over and they won't be as lucky at killing > the intruder. Then after they are all dead and the intruder has consolidated > their gains (probably by fencing their street in) you can begin to scheme > ways of taking that property since its obvious yours is next. This is not the optimal strategy. The optimal strategy is to warn your neighbors, or call the neighborhood security service. You do this because you want them to do the same for you, should you come under attack. This is why most primates (specifically humans) live in groups --it's easier to see the predators coming with everyone watching, and it's easier to fend them off if everybody picks up a stick. Fortunately, most people are already programmed to behave in a social fashion (the ones who weren't got eaten 40,000 years ago). The scenario you paint above relies on the assumption of a sudden change in human nature, if the all protecting state were to evaporate. This is an incorrect assumption. Many have been the times that people have thought they could change human nature, and equally many are the failures. > > Z may well shoot him out of self defense, and > > even if he survives his action, he'll have to pay a *lot* of restitution > > before people will trust him again, if ever. Law enforcement by > > ostracism --read L. Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach", for a more > > detailed description. > > Wait a second, there is no law to enforce here outside of make money, obtain > property, keep somebody else from taking it. You are overlooking common law. > > In summary, a free market is far from being an immoral market. In fact, > > it is the most moral market there is, since there is no state which > > holds the "right" to initiate force. > > In summary a free-market is a anarchy of kill or be killed, take or get > taken. He with the most goodies wins until somebody with a better strategy > comes along. There is nothing to moderate the use of force, especialy when > its the optimal strategy to increase ones holdings. > Except, as I've pointed out, it is *not* the optimal strategy. Perhaps you would enjoy the works of Richard Dawkins. He goes into great detail describing exactly how nonviolent strategies are superior to violent ones. I'll just give one example here. When two bears approach the same berry bush, they do not immediately start fighting over it. Instead, they each stick to one side of the bush, and do not disturb one another. Why, if your strategy is the optimal one, would this be the case? After all, bears are already pretty good at attacking things. It would be pretty easy for a exceptional bear to break this rule, and become dominant over the other bears, if what you say is true. But it is obvious that bears *don't* do this. That any bears or ancestors of bears that ever did do this were somehow out-competed by their peaceful counterparts. Thus it would appear, from available evidence, that your approach *is not* superior to the peaceful approach. Read Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene" for a more in-depth argument. Michael Hohensee From declan at well.com Sat Nov 7 22:01:25 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:01:25 +0800 Subject: IP: Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers In-Reply-To: <199811072128.NAA19724@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199811080538.VAA24008@smtp.well.com> Seems to me that it would have been just as easy for "believer" to send the URL to the story as the whole thing. Same with ol'VZ. Not only is it in poor taste, but it means less people will read the article on wired.com, which is what pays the rent. -Declan At 01:28 PM 11-7-98 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > >From: believer at telepath.com >Subject: IP: Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers >Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:22:46 -0600 >To: believer at telepath.com > >Source: Wired >http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16035.html?3 > >Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers > by Declan McCullagh > > 4:00 a.m.5.Nov.98.PST > The phones are already ringing when Steve From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 7 23:32:32 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 15:32:32 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... In-Reply-To: <199811071757.LAA02280@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811080706.IAA28043@replay.com> >A more interesting question is whether anonymous remailers will need to >register. I suspect that there will be a challenge to this law that will I think they will. The brief period of loose controls over communication media is coming to an end. State correctly identified the problem and now it is effectively being dealt with. As printed mass media enjoyed short period of "freedom" at the beginning of the century, so did internet in last five-six years or so. All identifiable concentration nodes (news, ftp & http servers, remailers, dial-in access points etc.) will eventually be censored. It is interesting to note that today's network topology is more vulnerable to censorship than UUCP was. The only (partial) solution is to raise the cost of censoring by requiring one-to-one effort. In other words, serverless world in which end users directly exchange (preferably encrypted) packets over common carriers. Hint: *Bsd + IPSec + uucp over IP and then merge in Crowds technology where real-time relaying is needed. Actually ... cypherpunks is a good choice for the first port. The Barnman From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 8 00:11:41 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:11:41 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <199811072128.NAA19724@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 9:35 PM -0800 11/7/98, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Seems to me that it would have been just as easy for "believer" to send the >URL to the story as the whole thing. Same with ol'VZ. > >Not only is it in poor taste, but it means less people will read the >article on wired.com, which is what pays the rent. > Myself, I try to mostly just snip out a few paragraphs of a story and comment on them, fair use and all. However, Declan's point about "what pays the rent" brings up an obvious point: does _anybody_ look at those damned banner ads? This is the new "blind spot"...that foveal region about a third of the way down a Web page screen that has dancing icons, "click on me" junk, and corporate logos. My guess is that nearly all of us skip this junk completely, and I think marketing studies will someday confirm this. (There have been tantalizing reports in places like the "Wall Street Journal" that basically almost nobody sees these ads, but the full message hasn't sunk in.) And the advertising creeps are getting even creepier. Intel was running a banner ad that looked like a typical Mac or Windows error/alert box, something like "Click Here to Resume Operation." Creepy. And annoying. And even my current favorite search engine, Metacrawler, now has banner ads scattered throughout the search results. Tonight's ad (they change frequently, of course) even looked like a *search script*! A field for entering text and then an OK button...I didn't try it, but it was obviously an attempt to mislead people--embedding a search script inside a search result. (It was a "fake search script" to "Find people just like you," from "PlanetAll.com") And the common pages--Wired, Yahoo, Excite, Dejanews, .....--devote the left third to junky promotions, the top fourth to their damned name ("Metacrawler" in 40-point type), and then scatter banned ads across a third of what's remaining. It's not uncommon for only 2-3 search results to come back on a screen of 1024 x 768. Declan's own site, Wired.com, runs junk across the top, junk on the left side, junk on the right side, and doesn't even use the screen real estate. His story on Y2K, for example, is crammed into about a column inch or two in the center. This is what we've come to. Beautiful high resolution screens with junk filling them. (Yes, I tried the utilities which purport to flush banner ads, but they didn't work well (long delays, cruftiness).) Friends of mine routinely turn off all graphics, a point I'm about to reach. So, Declan may think the banner ads at Wired.com pay the rent, and the bean counters may think this is so, but I doubt any of us are looking at the ads. Except the dummies. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 8 00:39:08 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:39:08 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811080818.AAA05625@netcom13.netcom.com> I like the wired.com site and hit it almost daily. I consider it one of the highest quality sites on the net, and their system of linking to other daily articles on other sites I really like. (wish they would summarize their articles better though before you click through-- something that they have resisted for a long time but for what reason I have no idea) I do look at banner ads but rarely click on them. regrding copyright issues on the web, there is an interesting article in an old CUD called "the cyberspatial copyright" that captures my own thinking on the subject, for anyone with the lack of laziness to seek it out it would have been nice if Declan identified his affiliation with Wired in his complaint.. a nice post TCM, you have written on the idea of the worthlessness of banner ads long ago. but you've been way wrong too (er, ah, more diplmatically, "off") based on your old posts. I recall a post, I think, in which you predicted that ads would eventually be thrown away on the net after proven worthless. your current msg contains a similar theme. clearly the absolute opposite has happened. ads are successfully funding the net and entire new cool and innovative startups such as "doubleclick" etc. that are in many ways "virtual businesses" that run on information flow. 3rd wave, alvin toffler, is definitely HERE. TCM, you appear never to have worked in advertising. advertisers do not put out ads so that every person who reads it buys the product or clicks on the ad. they are satisfied with 1/100 "click thrus", and that's exactly what they get. online advertising is very,very cost effective if done properly. it can really be "microtargeted" in a way existing advertising isn't. so TCM, you are confusing two issues. advertising in general is annoying, ubiquitous, in-your-face in our culture. some estimates are that 1000+ ads are seen daily by each individual when you look at tv, magazine, outdoor, etc. online advertising shares all these traits. however, online advertising does not have to be a miracle cure. it only has to be as good (but idealy better) than *existing* advertising systems in use. and they are very inefficient and wasteful at times if you are aware of that industry. online advertising is downright streamlined compared to other forms that have preceded it. consider the breakthrough of geocities in which entire free *personal* (not corporate!!) web sites are supported by advertising solely!! geocities is a small cyberspace miracle unappreciated by many. they are growing insanely and their quality is getting to be really top notch. personally I think online advertsiing is really cool because it is funding the civilization of cyberspace. it's annoying and tacky and in-your-face, but it pays the bills, and is doing more so every day. it will get less obnoxious over time in some ways as you begin to run into only the ads that interest you based on "microtargeting" so to speak. you buy stuff, right TCM? well online ads may get to the point where you stop complaining and find them a very valuable resource to make your buying decisions--even objectively (for example an ad could link to an objective 3rd part like "consumer reports"). I think this day is not too far off. in many ways it is already here. From renegade at texoma.net Sun Nov 8 17:08:24 1998 From: renegade at texoma.net (Renegade) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:08:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spy News In-Reply-To: <199811081454.JAA30292@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981108190424.007c4b90@texoma.net> None of them were even known, much less found, until Ronald Pelton starting pointing them out to the russkies on a world map. At 09:45 AM 11/08/1998 -0500, John Young wrote: >NYT reports today on a new book, "Blind Man's Bluff," >which reports on the US's success at placing surveillance >devices on Soviet subsea communications cables around >the world. With much technical detail about how it was >done, beginning with the simple but overlooked idea of >locating shoreline warning signs about undersea cables >then tracking from there. > >The devices, some up to 20 feet long for housing elaborate >processing equipment, captured electronic emanations, thereby >eluding detection measures aimed at physical taps. One was >found by the Soviets but most were not and much information >on the program is still classified. > >AT&T and Bell labs built many of them. The US Navy will not >comment on the book, citing national security restrictions. -Renegade From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 8 01:48:03 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:48:03 +0800 Subject: IP: [FP] L.A. DMV Tries to Stem the Tide of Fake Licenses In-Reply-To: <199811042123.NAA18961@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981107232750.008f4e70@idiom.com> At 01:23 PM 11/4/98 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri forwarded "ScanThisNews" 's forwarding to ignition-point by VIRGINIA ELLIS from last April - presumably the Digital Millenium Copyright Act means that everybody here had better register or they're in Big Trouble :-) Anyway, .... The State has been forcing people to turn over private information, such as SSNs and addresses, to an organization known to be riddled with graft, information selling, and illegal issuing of licenses. "We have, in effect, created a cottage industry," said Steve Solem, a DMV deputy director. One of the big encouragements to this cottage industry has been the anti-immigrant Pete Wilson administration's policy that speaking Spanish causes bad driving so undocumented immigrants can't be allowed to drive. The article also points to other groups of people denied permission to travel for non-safety-related reasons. >SACRAMENTO - The California driver's license's preeminence as a form of >identification has spawned a thriving black market for fraudulent licenses >and a major corruption scandal in the state's motor vehicle department, >records and interviews show. > >In recent years, as the lowly driver's license has been redesigned to make >it more tamper-resistant, the card has increasingly become the dominant >piece of identification for cashing checks, obtaining credit and securing >government services. .... >New laws have made a larger and larger pool of people susceptible to losing >their license for activities unrelated to driving. The license can be >suspended for spraying graffiti, failure to pay child support, truancy and >certain kinds of prostitution. And immigrants who lack proper proof of >residency cannot be issued one. > >"If you're a drunk driver, you want a fake ID," said Alison Koch, a senior >special investigator for the DMV in Sacramento. "If you're in a gang, you >want a fake ID. If you're a deadbeat dad, you want a fake ID. If you're an >illegal alien, you want a fake ID. If you want to commit check or credit >card fraud, you want a fake ID. > >"There is hardly a crime out there that doesn't demand some kind of >fraudulent identification." ... >Reed acknowledged the bad publicity was a wake-up call but disputed Peace's >contention the DMV has a culture of corruption, saying the vast majority of >the DMV's 8,600 workers are law-abiding. ... >Birth certificates, which the DMV requires, are easily counterfeited, and >phony ones are hard to spot, officials said. The appearance of birth >certificates varies from state to state and sometimes, as in California, >from county to county. Adding to the problem is California's open birth >certificate procedure, which allows virtually anyone to get a certified copy >of anyone else's birth record. .... >Scattaglia said much of the counterfeiting may have its roots south of the >border, but no one knows for sure because investigators have only been able >to arrest the sellers, not the suppliers. ..... >Banking officials are starting to rethink their heavy reliance on the >driver's license. "That's certainly a trend that's underway because they are >increasingly fake," said Gregory Wilhelm, lobbyist for the California >Bankers Assn. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Sun Nov 8 03:16:42 1998 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:16:42 +0800 Subject: verisign digital id's for outlook Message-ID: <91052249324053@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> >A quick question for all you security-savvy people. Our IT instructor has >asked the class to sign up for verisigns' 60-day trial of a class 1 digital >id. > >I also understand that a well (poorly?) written activeX applet can grab my >key basically without my knowledge (to speak nothing of the other myriad >holes in win98/95) > >My question is, where the hell is the private key kept on the users box? >How is it protected against attack? It's protected by Microsoft asserting that it's protected. There's also some sort of attempt at encryption (easily broken, see http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/breakms.txt), but in any case there are enough security holes there that anything which manages to run on your system (ActiveX, as you've mentioned) can grab your keys without a lot of trouble. Peter. From die at die.com Sun Nov 8 20:20:40 1998 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spy News In-Reply-To: <199811081454.JAA30292@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <19981108232025.G15373@die.com> On Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 02:51:07PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: > > With the advent of fiber optics capable of repeater-less operation over > transoceanic distances, one would think this sort of underwater surveilence > would be come much more difficult. Actually they use optical amplifiers rather than repeaters and are thus repeaterless in that sense rather than depending on the loss of a single passive fiber being small enough to work all the way across the pond. But one supposes the technology of tapping the cables must have been developed, though indeed a lot harder because one has to actually dig into the cable (and deal with the high voltage for powering the amplifiers and so forth) and tap the individual fibers with quantum coupling type taps. And one supposes the taps are more detectable. The whole issue may be moot by virtue of the extent to which the carriers are in bed with UKUSA anyway, however, as there aren't very many fiber cables run by unfreindly parties unwilling to part with the bitstream... > > --Steve > > -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From usura at replay.com Sun Nov 8 05:58:46 1998 From: usura at replay.com (Alex de Joode) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:58:46 +0800 Subject: Response to Anonymous re: Zero-Knowledge Freedom Message-ID: <199811081325.OAA13192@replay.com> Anonymous, [..] : >FREEDOM servers in their home country (example: if terrible laws are : >passed like in the Netherlands requiring logging and storage of all : >packet info., etc.). In this manner, a local user in a restrictive I'm not aware of any law that requires "logging and storage of all packet info". (I presume you mean 'Wet Computercriminaliteit II' ?) There is a part that makes ISP liable if they cannot point to a 'user' but the law explicitly states that you have to be in the business of being an ISP, running a remailer is not my business, it is a 'not for profit' hobby, so it will be fun to see how "they" will 'manouvre' to bring that also under the law ... Anyways could you please sent me the relevant parts of this law that lead you think this way ? bEST Regards, -- Alex de Joode | International CryptoRunners | http://www.replay.com 'A little paranoia can lengthen your life' From stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 8 06:10:34 1998 From: stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:10:34 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <199811072128.NAA19724@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <19981108134525.A26515@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 11:50:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Myself, I try to mostly just snip out a few paragraphs of a story and > comment on them, fair use and all. I particularly dislike articles that are things forwarded from other lists without comment (IP seems a particular offender here). These are rarely interesting. > This is the new "blind spot"...that foveal region about a third of the way > down a Web page screen that has dancing icons, "click on me" junk, and > corporate logos. My guess is that nearly all of us skip this junk > completely, and I think marketing studies will someday confirm this. (There > have been tantalizing reports in places like the "Wall Street Journal" that > basically almost nobody sees these ads, but the full message hasn't sunk > in.) Click through rates are something like 2%, so most are screening them out. I rarely noticed what the ads actually said. > (Yes, I tried the utilities which purport to flush banner ads, but they > didn't work well (long delays, cruftiness).) I don't know which ones you have tried but junkbuster http://www.junkbuster.org/ (a proxy on port 8000) works _very_ well on my linux system, particularly with the "blank gif" patch. It blanks out 99% of banner gifs, which makes pages like metacrawler and wired look more visually attractive and load faster. Until I lost all the banner ads I hadn't realised how distracting all those animated gifs at the top of the screen were and its now much faster and easier to read the info you want, without them. > Friends of mine routinely turn off all graphics, a point I'm about to reach. I tried this but found it made the net too hard to use. > So, Declan may think the banner ads at Wired.com pay the rent, and the bean > counters may think this is so, but I doubt any of us are looking at the > ads. Except the dummies. It would give a brave browser manufactor (Opera?) quite an advantage if they built the banner ad killer into the browser directly. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk http://www.pineal.com/ i'm a programmer: i don't buy software, i write it. --tom christiansen From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 8 08:07:02 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:07:02 +0800 Subject: Spy News Message-ID: <199811081454.JAA30292@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> NYT reports today on a new book, "Blind Man's Bluff," which reports on the US's success at placing surveillance devices on Soviet subsea communications cables around the world. With much technical detail about how it was done, beginning with the simple but overlooked idea of locating shoreline warning signs about undersea cables then tracking from there. The devices, some up to 20 feet long for housing elaborate processing equipment, captured electronic emanations, thereby eluding detection measures aimed at physical taps. One was found by the Soviets but most were not and much information on the program is still classified. AT&T and Bell labs built many of them. The US Navy will not comment on the book, citing national security restrictions. The Times also has an obituary for Tommy Flowers, the gent who guided construction of Colossus machines at Bletchley Park to break top-level German codes during WW II. There's still interesting debate about the Paul Dore story of picking up signals from space, which he first thought were from aliens, but which seems more likely to be from a surveillance satellite, and possibly from a type not publicly known. Not enough data yet to show that the story is not a hoax, or disinformation by US/UK spy agencies, but it has led to informative discussion of what such signals could indicate. Notes on this at: http://jya.com/project415.htm More commentary welcome, here or privately. Some will recall a vigorous discussion here a few years back about listening in on US undersea cables, commencing at the landfall points (dense packs of them here in the NYC area), many handily marked on coastal seafaring maps. Or, for more up-to-date technology, setting a receiver to point in the direction of those on TLA bases (needing an x-ray of the concealing radome). From stuffed at stuffed.net Mon Nov 9 01:21:14 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED MON NOV 9) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:21:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 8 11:36:53 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 03:36:53 +0800 Subject: IP: Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers (fwd) Message-ID: <199811081712.LAA05240@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 00:35:04 -0500 > From: Declan McCullagh > Subject: Re: IP: Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers > Seems to me that it would have been just as easy for "believer" to send the > URL to the story as the whole thing. Same with ol'VZ. > > Not only is it in poor taste, but it means less people will read the > article on wired.com, which is what pays the rent. True, but since when is freedom of speech, association, and press related to wired (or you) making a profit? I feel zero social responsibility to tell people to go there and read it when I can send a snippet of it to them directly and save them the time, effort, and bandwidth. I personaly absolutely *HATE* to recieve a piece of email that contains nothing but a URL, it's worthless - lacks all context. Don't like folks sending partial or whole articles to foster discussion, learn to love it or live with it. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 8 12:08:24 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:08:24 +0800 Subject: Forwarded mail... Message-ID: <199811081742.LAA05396@einstein.ssz.com> Ah, what the hell. It's a good day to practice the golden rule. Forwarded message: > Date: 8 Nov 1998 04:40:03 -0000 > From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer > > It seems so pointless to correct Choate. The guy is almost totally > impervious to enlightenment. But a couple of whoppers have to be > pointed out... Speakin of pointless anonymous know-it-all bullshit .... > Electrons don't "carry" photons. Actualy they carry the probability wave for the photon (which technicaly could be anywhere in the universe at any given time because of space contraction caused by relativistic effects), but for this particular discussion which concerns ionized or non-correlated electrons carrying a unit charge and Joules of energy (which is where the photon comes in you anonymous fucking ignoramus) saying the electron is carrying a photon is sufficient. > An atom can absorb a photon, raising > an electron to a higher energy level, but the photon is then gone. Well actualy to be absolutely exact the photon is locked between the protons and the electron. It is *NEVER* gone or destroyed. You can't destroy energy, only transform it's form. The photon is *NEVER* absorbed by anything. Now exactly how is the 'higher energy' level expressed? By a *PHOTON* of shorter wavelength (E=hv) you know-nothing smart-ass anonymous dick-muncher. > a single moving electron certainly doesn't carry a photon. Photons move > at the speed of light, always. Only when they are not correlated to a particle such as a proton or an electron. When an electron or a proton carry a packet of energy (measured in Joules) it most certainly carries a photon. Let's look at the electrical characteristic called voltage (you probably haven't heard of this since the rest of your pseudo-science is as full of bullshit as your mouth) which is measured in Joules/Coulomb. Now a Coulomb of electrons moving past a given point in a unit second is an Amp of current. Want to explain how those electrons manage to carry those Joules of photons if their isn't a correlation? I didn't think you did you anonymous lying sack of horse sperm. Since photons *ARE* light (you fucking anonymous ninny) your last point is irrelevant and redundant. Of course they ALWAYS travel at the speed of light, it's how we define light in the first place. > Quarks are constituents only of baryons. There are no quarks in electrons > or photons. Quarks are constituents of hadrons you dumbass prick sucking gay boy. Protons and Neutrons are hadrons built from 3 quarks and some other bosons (some vector and some not) that glue the nucleus together. Electrons and photons are called Leptons (because they are their own vector boson). Electrons carry electrical unit negative charge and photons carry EM fields. A Baryon is a distinction based on the type of quarks that make up the hadron. If the paticle is made up of no anti-quarks it's a baryon, othwise it's a meson. God, what a load of quantum mechanical horse hockey you spout this fine Sunday morning. I can't hardly wait to see what other anonymous drivel you spew out of your syphilis infested mouth next. > The net charge within the sphere will not change. Then you need to go back to school and learn Gauss's Law all over again. It's ok, you'll probably get it in the first semester unless they recognize what a dumb-ass you are and put you in the remedial section. Then I believe you'll be scheduled to cover those topics your Junior year. > If the box in the > middle with the "spark gap" is spraying out electrons, this can only mean > that the box is itself becoming positively charged. The sphere sees a > constant charge within itself; at best, the charge can be redistributed. Which is the whole point to this exercise. The simple fact that I can put a battery powered radio in a metal sphere as described and *STILL* receive the signal proves the model works within the constraints of the original thesis. Don't believe me? Try it at home with a couple of collanders soldered together. The charge is re-distributed to the surface of the sphere, the total charge of the entire system does stay constant (at least until the insulation breaks down). > There are no net changes of charge within the sphere and so there will > be no changes in any charge appearing on the outside of the sphere. If that were so we wouldn't have a spark in the ball to begin with. > Choate's whole model of how a spark gap transmitter works, and why it > emits electromagnetic radiation, is so bizarre that it is hard to believe. > Someone else can bang their head against the brick wall of his ignorance > on that topic. Who said anything about a spark gap transmitter? We were talking about a battery powered spark gap. Not the same thing at all you anonymous weenie sucker. > Choate is, by far, the worst poster on the cypherpunks list today. He > posts off-topic material, he is argumentative, and 90% of the time, he > is simply wrong. Oh, your just jealous I want let you suck my dick junior. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Nov 8 12:14:10 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:14:10 +0800 Subject: Electric power generators ? Message-ID: <199811081725.JAA08583@smtp.well.com> You're talking about the wired.com article I wrote. I carefully did not say there is a "shortage" of generators, diesel or otherwise -- that's your own misreading of it. I did say that the largest U.S. distributor of diesel generators has half year delays on the most popular model. Same with bulk food suppliers like Walton's. Solar power companies also report vastly increased demand. You can buy cheaper gasoline generators at Home Depot, but there are reasons people want to pay three or four times as much for a diesel model. These differences and the other answers to your questions have been well-documented elsewhere; I'm not inclined to list them for you here, though others might be. -Declan At 05:52 PM 11-7-98 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > >Hi there, > >I saw an article posted about "shortages" of electric power generators >and other Y2K "survival" goods, such as grains in airtight drums. My >reading of the article gave me a feel that those products are bullshit >products geared towards naive losers, and can be easily replaced with >much cheaper products that can be bought at discount stores. > >More careful reading of the article showed that only certain high power >diesel generators are scarce. > >A visit to my local discount retailer has shown that there are 10KW >gasoline generators available for as little as $500. 10KW is far more >than I would need in an emergency. (I will probably need about 2KW). > >Questions: > >1) Aside from probably lower power, are those cheaper generators somehow >worse? > >2) How reliable are those cheaper generators? > >3) What is their expected lifetime, in hours of operation? > >4) How hard is it to service them? > >5) How do you connect them to the electric system, to properly use >them as backup? (this may be a stupid question, but I am not very >familiar with American system of electric wiring). > >6) How much gasoline do they consume if you draw 2KW power from them? > >Thank you. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);} > > \=/, _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_ > | @___oo ( )_ > /\ /\ / (___,,,}_--= ) > ) /^\) ^\/ _) =__ Anything is good and useful if ) > ) /^\/ _) (_ ) > ) _ / / _) ( it's made of chocolate. ) > /\ )/\/ || | )_) (_ ) >< > |(,,) )__) ( http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov ) > || / \)___)\ (_ _) > | \____( )___) )___ -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___== > \______(_______;;; __;;; > From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Sun Nov 8 13:02:06 1998 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:02:06 +0800 Subject: Blind signal demodulation Message-ID: <91055510827766@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> "Matt Crawford" wrote: >>The October 1993 Proceedings of the IEEE contain a number of rather ... >>... They also comment that blind decoders for typical voiceband >>signals can be implemented on Pentium MMX/UltraSparc-grade hardware. >Did you make specific a more general spec they made, or did you typo the date >of the issue? Oops, that should be October 1998, not 1993 (ie last months issue). Sorry about that. Peter. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 8 13:02:08 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:02:08 +0800 Subject: Milton Friedmann get's pied.... Message-ID: <199811081848.MAA05734@einstein.ssz.com> Seems the Mayor of San Fran and Milton have something in commen.... ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ps I didn't forward anything from this so that nobody'd get upset they missed their meal-train. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 8 13:03:11 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:03:11 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811081809.MAA05525@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 00:18:26 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) > You missed my point. What I'm trying to point out is that no government > (or any other body, for that matter) can prevent someone from doing > something. Of that we agree. Which is why I will continue to believe the issues we deal with are not government problems but people problems. > All the state can do (and does, if you look closely) is > offer to punish anyone who disobeys it. It doesn't matter whether that > state is protecting individual rights or not --it can only punish, not > prevent. Well to be even more exact, they offer a guarantee of retribution if they can catch or prove somebody broke a law. Of course we could posit a government that pairs everyone up in groups of two (a perpetual no-lone zone), the ultimate police state. > I'm explaining why it is impossible for the state to protect individual > rights. I suspect we're playing word games here with 'protect'. I am not refering to what my neighbor does to me when he gets pissed off that my stereo is too loud. That obviously the government (local, state, or federal) can do nothing about a priori. Where the governemnt (at all levels) *CAN* in fact protect individual rights is the way they create the laws they enforce on all citizens (eg tax laws or dope-smoking laws). Those most certainly can be crafted to prevent abuse of civil liberties. Our own Constitution is a perfect example. The problem is the *people* who we elect believe they are above it and instead of asking "Do the laws we pass conform to the letter and intent of the Constitution?" instead state "It's a flexible document that is hard to interpet because of wording and changes in society". They want an out to not have to play by the rules. Nothing more and nothing less. > I offer two mechanisms by which the state *could* _protect_ > individual rights, and then point out why they are impossible. It is > something of a strawman argument, but if you disagree, I'm willing to > tear down any mechanism you might propose. :) See above. It isn't the rules that matter, it's the respect the arbiters of the rules have *for* the rules that matter. With that clearly in mind *any* mechanism is doomed to fail from the beginning. > > > All any state can do is threaten to "retaliate" against (why not just > > > say "attack") people who disobey its edicts. In order for this threat > > > to be credible, the state must wield sufficient power to kill any > > > individual (or group of individuals) who would stand against it. If it > > > does not have this power, it cannot govern. > > > > This is a quaint and completely artificial distinction. > > Is it really? Then could you please explain to me exactly why I would > have to pay taxes (or otherwise make submission) to a state which did > *not* have the power to kill me? So you wouldn't have to stand there and watch your house burn to the slab. So you would have help finding the perpetrator who raped your daughter last night. So when you drive down the street it isn't a whole filled muddy tract through a economicaly impoverished wasteland. So when you write a check you know there is something behind it that is trustworthy. So when you have that wrech late some rainy night there is an ambulance and a hospital to take you to. As to your (and others) particular focus on taxes, all it would take to resolve that issue is a single law: No citizen may have their home, personal property, or their liberty infringed or removed because of tardy taxes. Of course I'd add a section in there that would direct the tax accessor of the appropriate local to send a note to all relevant services to refuse to provide services to you. I'd even them impound vehicles that were operated on public streets without the appropriate licenses. Don't want to let your house burn down, fine. Let the fucker burn to the slab. Your daughter gets raped, fine. You figure out who did it on your own. Don't want to pay vehicle and related taxes, fine don't drive your vehicle on public streets. Just face it. It isn't the threat of violence that pisses you off. It's that you have social responsibilities to those around you. Taxes represent a responsibility that you don't want and to hell with the consequences. > this in a physical sense, not a legal one-- then what is to stop me or > anyone else from telling it to fuck off? Such a state cannot govern > those who do not wish to be governed, and so would not be a government. No state can govern those who don't wish to be governed, violence or no. [I've deleted a great gob of this since it's the same just rehashed in different sentences.] And to answer a specific question, I'm familiar with Dawkins work. > When two bears approach the same berry bush, they do not immediately > start fighting over it. What time of year is it? If we're talking in the spring when they're just out of hibernation they will begin to attack immediately. If it is two males in rut in the fall they will attack immediately. If you examine the way Alaskan Browns share the Salmon runs in the spring you will find ample evidence why Dawkins example isn't worth the paper it's writ on. > Instead, they each stick to one side of the > bush, and do not disturb one another. Malarcky. I'm familiar with the way bears and other mammals work and this is gibberish. Unless the bears are related one of them will be finding another bush pronto. > pretty good at attacking things. It would be pretty easy for a > exceptional bear to break this rule, and become dominant over the other > bears, if what you say is true. Except your forgetting the nature of bears. Except in heat bears are solitary animals. They don't like groups and avoid them. They defend their territory to whatever level of force is required. In most cases (Alaskan Brown are a well studied example you can find tons of literature on) they will not even approach each other closer than several hundred feet. So the question of them sharing a berry bush is a contrived example that is irrelevant and doesn't occur in nature outside of family groups that are transient and only last 1-2 years depending on the type of bear and the food supply. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 8 13:04:05 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:04:05 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness (fwd) Message-ID: <199811081816.MAA05583@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Information Security > Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:59:09 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: Advertising Creepiness > Would you like to know whether it is "fair use" to repost entire articles? > > I would. When it is non-profit, and is equivalent to my neighbor bringing his morning paper over to show me a story (I don't subscribe to the paper so I haven't a license with the copyright holder in principle or practice) he wants to talk about. With the way the law is going that will soon be illegal for me to even look at the paper, though we can probably still talk about it. Though the probable next step is to make even that verbal recitation illegal. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at homeport.org Mon Nov 9 05:09:00 1998 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:09:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: TEMPEST Laptop from Wang Message-ID: <19981109082107.A13046@weathership.homeport.org> Sorry to not post the article, but Wang just announced a TEMPEST compliant portable computer. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28483,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 8 13:10:18 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:10:18 +0800 Subject: IP: Discover Alien Life With Your PC And SETI (fwd) Message-ID: <199811081829.MAA05664@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:39:58 -0800 > From: Steve Schear > Subject: Re: IP: Discover Alien Life With Your PC And SETI > Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that if I were an alien > civilization and wanted to send out a beacon, in as wide an angle as > possible, across the vast reaches of space and overcome as much of the path > losses as possible using the least energy I certainly wouldn't use a narrow > band signal. Quite the contrary, I'd want to spread a low bandwidth > information signal across the widest practical spectrum. Its much easier to > increase process gain (the ratio of the baseband information signal to the > final carrier bandwidth) than transmit power. The problem becomes the 1/r^2 losses. The receivers on this end have fixed lower end to their sensitivity that sets a minimal effective energy output at the transmitter. If you do the math you find that the entire Earth doesn't generate enough energy to send a spread-spectrum wide-band signal more than a few light-years out, not worth the effort or the social costs (nobody'd know about it because radio and television and such wouldn't be available since we're using all *that* energy for sending the signal). This might work for a hive mentality society but not for people. > While a narrow band signal from Arecibo's powerful transmitter/antenna > combination can be detected at a distance of about 300 light years. Since it's only been transmitting intermittenly about 30 years that's more than a tad moot. > Switching to a spread spectrum approach could allow broadening the antenna > pattern, and thereby its chances of detection, significantly without > reducing its effective range. Spread spectrum won't effect the beam angle of the dish, that's set when the dish is designed - spread spectrum or not. Also you'll need to build a new set of LMB's since the old ones won't be able to handle the frequency range or the gross power input required to keep the new signal at a given frequency at a respectible power level with the other frequencies we're now operating on in parallel. That baby's gonna get hot. > Notice how 63 dB (or over 2,000,000 fold > effective increase in transmit power) of process gain enables handheld GPS > receivers to pull in signals from satellites, sent using only a few watts > of transmit power, without much of an antenna. It's amazing how much you can pull in when you increase the sensitivity of the front-end and use mechanisms to reduce noise. > If all this seems to make sense, then why are the SETI people apparently > seaching the skies with lots of narrow band receivers? They don't seem to > be employing any broadband correlator techniques, so spread signals will > probably be missed. Then you haven't been keeping up with the Million Channel Receiver system that has been operating at Aricebo for several years. You also haven't been keeping up with the folks out at White Sands either who also impliment receivers of the same spread-spectrum type. Just about all the current big money (there ain't any since the feds cut the budget several years ago) projects use this system and the small-money and individual projects also impliment it but at a lower range of bandwidth sampled. It isn't that these folks don't want to use the latest technology it's that they can't.....$$$. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From trgz941 at netscape.com Mon Nov 9 05:12:46 1998 From: trgz941 at netscape.com (trgz941 at netscape.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:12:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOOST YOUR WEB SITE'S TRAFFIC--GET LISTED ON YAHOO! Message-ID: BOOST YOUR WEB SITE'S TRAFFIC--GET LISTED ON YAHOO! ---------------- THE MARKETING BENEFITS OF HAVING A YAHOO! LISTING FACT: Yahoo! is the most important search engine/directory on which your Web site can be listed. 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From trgz941 at netscape.com Mon Nov 9 05:14:33 1998 From: trgz941 at netscape.com (trgz941 at netscape.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:14:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOOST YOUR WEB SITE'S TRAFFIC--GET LISTED ON YAHOO! Message-ID: <724mlh8h7UOO> BOOST YOUR WEB SITE'S TRAFFIC--GET LISTED ON YAHOO! ---------------- THE MARKETING BENEFITS OF HAVING A YAHOO! LISTING FACT: Yahoo! is the most important search engine/directory on which your Web site can be listed. FACT: Independently conducted Internet studies show that 42% of all Internet traffic and 70% of all business-to- business Web site traffic is generated from Yahoo!. FACT: Getting your Web site listed on Yahoo! is without question the single most important marketing step you can take to promote your Web site. EXAMPLE: For some of our clients, a Yahoo! listing is the only Internet advertising they have--and the only advertising they need. 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Project Team, please REPLY to this E-mail with the word "REMOVE" in the E-mail's subject line. Thank you. From nobody at replay.com Sun Nov 8 13:21:51 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:21:51 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone In-Reply-To: <199811071710.LAA02112@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811082022.VAA12297@replay.com> >You are proposing a means of setting up a benign government. For it to be >a government, it must wield sufficient power to rule. For it to be >benign, it must be run by "good" men (i.e. those who will not use the >state to increase their personal power). But as you pointed out, it is >foolish to trust that the state will be run by such individuals, >regardless of who they are. Thus it would seem that it is impossible to >create a benign state. Thus we should avoid having one. State is not "created" or "set up". This assumes in-born willingness and desire of subjects to have a state, and that a state becomes because so-called "people" need it. Or that having a state is somehow natural order of things. A state is just an extension of a tribal power structure, or, deeper into the past, successor to silverback hierarchy. A group of people (families, clans, etc.) that happen to have power over the rest on some territory. The centuries long brainwashing to the contrary has successfully muddled the issue and made it "something complicated and not for ordinary people to worry about." And a great topic for ranting. The semantics of this indoctrination are deep in the language. In newspeak it is impossible to think wrong thoughts. A state is not "run" by individuals - (that neatly implies that it is something above mere individuals) - state is just a terrific excuse for individuals for herding the rest. "State" is not good or bad, any more that a tree is good or bad. State is creation of human ability to abstract, and demonstrates self-limiting attribute of intellect in general. We are capable of imagining extremely perverse systems for screwing ourselves voluntarily. Using that to one's personal benefit is as natural as eating. And history proves that. The question is, can we really escape newspeak limitations ? Is a new language required for individuals to exist ? Maybe use of an ancient tongue that is not polluted with the modern bias ? Me From nobody at replay.com Sun Nov 8 13:23:17 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:23:17 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... Message-ID: <199811082015.VAA11783@replay.com> At 09:29 PM 11/7/98 GMT, phelix at vallnet.com wrote: >Is an anymous remailer needs to register, what will the implications be? Armbands next, bubby. From guy at panix.com Sun Nov 8 13:23:37 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:23:37 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness Message-ID: <199811081759.MAA27023@panix7.panix.com> > From owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com Sat Nov 7 16:04:32 1998 > To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > From: Robert Hettinga > Subject: IP: Re: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... > Cc: believer at telepath.com > > Now *this* should be fun. Someone who claims to be a cypherpunk is now > going to call the copyright police on a non-profit, volunteer news list. Would you like to know whether it is "fair use" to repost entire articles? I would. > When the going gets tough, the "tough" rat out the innocent, it appears... "Innocent" is hardly an accurate description of Michele Moore. Would you like Information Security to cough up more color on his netcopping move? Hey, you ratted me out to the IP list! ;-) ---- > From: Steve Mynott > Subject: Re: Advertising Creepiness > > On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 11:50:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > > > Myself, I try to mostly just snip out a few paragraphs of a story and > > comment on them, fair use and all. > > > > My guess is that nearly all of us skip this junk > > completely, and I think marketing studies will someday confirm this. > > Click through rates are something like 2%, so most are screening them out. > I rarely noticed what the ads actually said. > > > (Yes, I tried the utilities which purport to flush banner ads, but they > > didn't work well (long delays, cruftiness).) > > I don't know which ones you have tried but junkbuster > > http://www.junkbuster.org/ (a proxy on port 8000) > > works _very_ well on my linux system, particularly with the "blank gif" > patch. > > It blanks out 99% of banner gifs, which makes pages like metacrawler and > wired look more visually attractive and load faster. But, when sites get smarter about using server-side includes, the I/O delays will still be there. I think ISPs should offer a proxy service for WWW access. They have bigger pipes. This could include an opt-in (configure through an ISP-local WWW page) adbuster. At the same time, it would to a certain extent anonymize access. And let's say cable-modem access becomes wide-spread, and legislation forces the cable companies to allow ISP choice. I think ISPs that offer some privacy in user access over this shared medium will have a leg-up on their competition. That would involve software residing local to the user's box that would encrypt access between them and the ISP for WWW, email, ftp, etc. More than just ssh. Hey, then you would finally have ads that make clear what encryption is for the average user: picture two neighbors going to work in the morning meeting in the elevator, and one starts hinting he knows what the other was receiving for email, which sites he was surfing... Maybe the Anonymizer.com people will release/sell such software for ISPs, and, of course, sans GAK. ---guy From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 8 14:07:51 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:07:51 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811082058.OAA06231@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:39:33 -0800 > > You missed my point. What I'm trying to point out is that no > > government (or any other body, for that matter) can prevent > > someone from doing something. All the state can do (and does, > > if you look closely) is offer to punish anyone who disobeys it. > > Again that is simply incorrect, or do you wish to tell me that our military > has not prevented the invasion of the continental US in this century, or > that it did not prevent the Soviet Union from expanding across Europe? You > cannot completely discount *deterrent force*, although it is greatly > overrated. Woah. This extension into foreign powers and such is an entirely different venue. The entire discussion is based around the question of a government and those citizens within it. When we start talking about multiple government and multiple citizen sets the whole issue is orders of magnitude more complex. > Nor can a government use *retribution force* if it does not know the > perpetrator. Tell that to the hostages that were killed during the occupation of France. > Your statement boils down to the government is not omnipotent. Well duh! Agreed. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From die at die.com Sun Nov 8 14:12:51 1998 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:12:51 +0800 Subject: TEMPEST laptops (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811050611.AAA10989@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <19981108155839.C15373@die.com> On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:11:20AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > It depends on the frequency. Last time I checked a laser or a maser (both > are radio waves strictly speaking) travel LOS. The scattering comes from > beam divergence and incidental refractions and reflections from the > molecules in the air and supported detritus. Lasers are a technology for generating light, not kinds of radio waves. And masers are a fairly obscure technology for amplifiying weak microwave signals in cryogenicly cooled devices. Both deal with electomagnetic radiation and obey Maxwells laws .... > > > Microwave ovens work by having the waves bounce around inside a box. Any > > significant hole or crack (up to roughly half the wavelength) would let the > > waves out. > > Depends on the size of the hole and location. In most microwave ovens there > are definite dead-spots (corners and the exact center of the area are > notorius). Most microwave ovens incorperate a motorized metallic device called a stirrer that sits directly in the beam of energy from the magnetron and is designed to reflect microwave energy bouncing around the cavity and change the standing wave pattern as it rotates, resulting in much more even distribution of energy. Without the stirrer hots spots would be much worse... > > > An open top box will not work. > > If the microwaves (for example) are transmitted parallel to the open side it > might very well work just fine. It's going to depend on a variety of > factors that will preclude such a blanket statement from being valid. > Difraction becomes very significant for openings near in scale to the wavelength of the energy in question, thus the edges of the top will act to scatter energy in all directions... > > The absolute magnitude isn't really important. > > Most of the signals that are emitted by a computer are not in the 100dB > dynamic range (@2x=3db that's a signal range of 1:33) , more likely 40-50db > if that. For a TTL (5V) signal it barely covers 3dB (LOW is <2.5v and a > high is >=4.75). There simply is no way in hell a signal with a 3dB range is > going to emit a rf signal that is 100dB. This makes no sense whatsoever. The EM radiation takes place when changes in the current flowing happen. Thus radiation occurs only when the TTL signal changes state, not during either its high voltage or low volage state. The amplitude of the current step is determined by the impedance of the circuit and how fast the logic switches and how great the voltage or current swing is , and how effectively it gets radiated is determined by the geometry of the conductor and its sourounding ohjects. EM radiation results only from changes in the magnetic and electric fields, not from their steady state values. Thus it is entirely meaningless to talk of the change in steady state values as only "3 db" when no radiation results from either the steady high or steady low value. And indeed near the conductor, the energy radiated from the current step will be 100 db greater than the ambiant (decibels are relative units, thus it is meaningless to talk of "radiating a rf signal that is 100 db"). -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From schear at lvcm.com Sun Nov 8 14:39:34 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:39:34 +0800 Subject: A question about the new ISP ruling and email... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811080408.WAA04069@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: >> `(B) accommodates and does not interfere with standard >> technical measures. >> >> `(2) DEFINITION- As used in this subsection, the term >> `standard technical measures' means technical measures that are used >> by copyright owners to identify or protect copyrighted works and-- >> >> `(A) have been developed pursuant to a broad consensus of >> copyright owners and service providers in an open, fair, voluntary, >> multi-industry standards process; > >So this is voluntary? > >> `(B) are available to any person on reasonable and >> nondiscriminatory terms; and > >Meaning they themselves aren't copyrighted? > >> `(C) do not impose substantial costs on service providers or >> substantial burdens on their systems or >> networks. > >Imposition of *any* cost is a substantial burden. And this is where we should fight them. When the CDA was struck down one of the compelling arguments accepted by the court was that it was way too costly for information providers to police those accessing their sites. The same argument can easily be made for posted materials, especially the huge Usenet feed. --Steve From mgering at ecosystems.net Sun Nov 8 14:56:54 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:56:54 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B266@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> > You missed my point. What I'm trying to point out is that no > government (or any other body, for that matter) can prevent > someone from doing something. All the state can do (and does, > if you look closely) is offer to punish anyone who disobeys it. 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If you would like not to recieve any other mailings of this type please goto: http//3625362989/ From ichudov at video-collage.com Mon Nov 9 07:41:23 1998 From: ichudov at video-collage.com (Igor Chudov) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:41:23 +0800 Subject: test5 Message-ID: <199811091504.KAA15499@mail.video-collage.com> test5 From guy at panix.com Mon Nov 9 07:54:22 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:54:22 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <199811090115.RAA23804@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: <199811091519.KAA01473@panix2.panix.com> > From: Declan McCullagh > Subject: Re: Advertising Creepiness > > Something that came across our Reuters feed over the weekend is a lawsuit > by the whitehouse.com folks -- they're pissed that a new version of > Netscape has some "intelligent" guessing features that, when someone types > in "whitehouse," automatically take 'em to whitehouse.gov. > > Which interferes with the rights of the whitehouse.com porn site, or so the > argument goes. At least it doesn't cost $40 million to get porn from whitehouse.com. Sounds like a pro-consumer move to me. ;-) > At 12:59 PM 11-8-98 -0500, Information Security wrote: > > > From owner-ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com Sat Nov 7 16:04:32 1998 > > > From: Robert Hettinga > > > > > > Now *this* should be fun. Someone who claims to be a cypherpunk is now > > > going to call the copyright police on a non-profit, volunteer news list. > > > >Would you like to know whether it is "fair use" to repost entire articles? > > > >I would. > > > > > When the going gets tough, the "tough" rat out the innocent... > > > >"Innocent" is hardly an accurate description of Michele Moore. > > > >Would you like Information Security to cough up more > >color on his netcopping move? > From declan at well.com Sun Nov 8 20:15:48 1998 > > Whether you love or hate current copyright laws, it's a stretch to argue > that it's legal to republish (by forwarding) articles in full. > > Willfully redistributing copyrighted material in violation of fair use > principles is, depending on the value, also a federal crime. Redistributing > a $1 article to thousands of people would be a felony. (Note I don't > endorse this law, but it's useful to know what the law is.) I guess that qualifies as a request for more color. In the local Panix Usenet groups, I've reposted quite a few whole articles, often from the IP list. Finally, a couple people made a stink, and officially complained to Panix. Carl Fink wrote: : On 11 Sep 1998 23:54:58 GMT, Information Security wrote: : Okay, I've been tolerating this for a long time, but: this is a : violation of both Federal and international law. Post URLs, not articles. My inelegant response: Eat me. The local posters kept applying pressure: : But beyond whatever legal consequences this may entail for you : personally, I wonder what consequences it could conceivably entail for : panix. Posting copyrighted material to general Usenet newsgroups is : one thing -- panix's staff could reasonably claim that they cannot : monitor or filter every Usenet newsgroup. But they could not : reasonably make that argument about the local panix newsgroups. The thread grew full of legal claims, and Panix consulted with lawyers. In the following post by the owner of Panix, the references to "sections 1,3,4" are from the IP list's fair use declaration URL http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml # Path: news.panix.com!not-for-mail # From: alexis at panix.com (Alexis Rosen) # Newsgroups: panix.announce,panix.policy,panix.chat,panix.questions # Subject: Determination on copyright issue # Date: 17 Sep 1998 11:28:27 GMT # Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC # # # This message is in response to the discussion/flamewar in several groups # over the posting of copyrighted material by guy at panix.com. Please read it, # think about it, read it again, and think again before posting in response. # This is a pretty nasty subject. # # In the wake of the postings and complaints to staff about guy's postings, # I consulted with two lawyers about this issue. One was a BLM, and the other # is a BLM and RIPE too. (Those are extremely technical acronyms for Brilliant # Legal Mind and Recognized Intellectual Property Expert. :-) # # [snip] # # I'm not going to go into the details much, because IANAL. But in short, # here's the answer: Fair use is a VERY fuzzily-defined concept, not in # principle where it's stated clearly in the law (as quoted here several # times recently), but in practice, where the courts try to interpret it. # Guy's claim for fair use could easily be correct, according to the BLMs, # because it may well qualify under sections 1, 3, and 4. I didn't think # so, but then again, I'm not a BLM, much less a RIPE. It would be a truly # terrible idea for us to take action, given the reasonable possibility that # there is no violation. # # It was also pointed out to me that Panix can not act against Guy's posts # without threatening its own position in any future case that might hinge # on whether Panix were an Editor of panix group contents. This might or # might not be the case were someone to start posting large quantities of # commercial software, but the two cases aren't similar, since guy's # postings aren't obvious and uncontestable violations. # # In any event, the BLMs' opinion was that I should very definitely leave # guy alone. This ruling extends to the one or two others that occasionally # post copyrighted material of similar nature, including one of Panix's staff. # # Of course, were the volume of such posts to rise substantially, things might # be different. So this should not be seen as an invitation for all Panixians # to start posting their favorite copyrighted material here on a regular # basis. # # Lastly: In an ideal world, everyone would learn from this and leave the # topic, wiser if sadder. In this less-than-ideal world, if you really want # to post a followup, I suggest that you consult a lawyer. If I hadn't, I'd # surely have stuck my foot in my mouth all the way up to my knee the first # time I posted about this topic. # # /a So, I was allowed to continue posting whole articles. That's what the lawyers advised. Then, the Digital Copyright Massive Federal Interference Act... > Fair Use vs. Intellectual Property: The U.S. Congress > passed the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, a bill designed to > distinguish between fair use and protected intellectual property > in cyberspace. > > I chose the IP list as the next-level test case... ---guy snipped source: http://www.wcco.com/news/stories/news-981106-144532.html Suspicious Object Found On Capitol Mall Was Not A Bomb ST. PAUL, Updated 8:35 p.m. November 6, 1998 -- Police hauled away a package with the words "Impeach Clinton Now" and signed by "the Mad Bomber" from the state Capitol on Friday, but temporarily lost when it flew out of a bomb squad trailer. A KSTP-TV helicopter was following the bomb squad van as it drove off towing a trailer containing the suspicious package. The station was taping as the package flew out of the open trailer in the wind and at least three cars ran over it. It took police about an hour to find the remains in the highway median. Some 200 employees, including Gov.-elect Jesse Ventura, were forced to leave the Capitol... From owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Mon Nov 9 08:04:05 1998 From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:04:05 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811091527.KAA16405@mail.video-collage.com> >From ichudov Mon Nov 9 10:27:22 1998 Received: (from ichudov at localhost) by mail.video-collage.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) id KAA16394 for cypherpunks; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:27:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:27:22 -0500 (EST) From: Igor Chudov Message-Id: <199811091527.KAA16394 at mail.video-collage.com> To: cypherpunks Subject: test5 Reply-To: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov) Sender: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at algebra.com X-List-Admin: ichudov at algebra.com X-Loop: cypherpunks at algebra.com test5 From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 9 08:23:45 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:23:45 +0800 Subject: Wang touts spy-proof portable Message-ID: <3646FFCE.CBF343B6@playboy.com> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28483,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh Wang Global has introduced a new portable computer, but it's not going to be winning any svelteness contests. Wang's Tempest Mobile Workstation, 3 inches thick and weighting 14.5 pounds, is designed for government officials who need spy-proof computers that don't leak any telltale signals to electronic eavesdroppers. ... I want... From Andrew.Loewenstern at wdr.com Mon Nov 9 08:43:58 1998 From: Andrew.Loewenstern at wdr.com (Andrew Loewenstern) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:43:58 +0800 Subject: Digicash bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <002701be0939$b34ce720$bf011712@games> Message-ID: <9811091614.AA00393@ch1d524iwk> Phill writes: > The fact that Chaum didn't have the monopoly he appeared to > imagine is probably why nobody was queuing up to pay his > demands. Name some other deployable payer anonymous electronic payment systems that are in competetion with DigiCash. andrew From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 09:12:27 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:12:27 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811091643.KAA11939@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "X" > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:56:29 -0700 > I hope against hope that you are being sarcastic, here. Obviously our > F**KED up red-tape spewing government could never pull off such an endeavor. > Unless, of course, there was a simple way to tell the tax-payers apart from > those wretched NON-payers. Maybe something like an ARMBAND? Embedded > sub-cut microchip? Bar-code tattoos? > > Now you've got a workable plan! How do they tell if you pay taxes now? They keep records. The taxpayer could also be issued a receipt as proof. Make it DL sized and it'd go right in your wallat. It would actualy reduce the amount of paperwork because the vast amount of enforcement labor and resources wouldn't be needed. Then there is the obvious observation that folks such as yourself wouldn't lie about not-being a tax-payer if asked by the nice fireman who just saved your house (after all it would be a serious crime). Me thinks you protest too much. It isn't that you don't want to pay taxes, or that you object to paying higher costs for services than a regular tax payer. You simply want somebody else to pay for the services you use at no cost to yourself. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 09:28:05 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:28:05 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811091704.LAA12150@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "X" > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:54:00 -0700 > ~> Me thinks you protest too much. It isn't that you don't want to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ~> pay taxes, > ~> or that you object to paying higher costs for services than a regular tax > ~> payer. You simply want somebody else to pay for the services you use at > ~> no cost to yourself. > ~> > > I think that remark was unfair, uncalled-for, and rude. No where in my post > did I say anything about not wanting to pay. I thought my post was humorous > and in the same sarcastic vein as yours. It was a reply to your statement. If you don't want people to ask questions or draw conclusions from your statements then perhaps you should rething even making those statements. As to sarcasm, there was none in my original posting. > You have insulted me publicly while having no knowledge of who you were > slighting. No, I expressed an opinion as to your motivation. Opinions never insult except when presented as fact. I did not do that. Me still thinks yo protest too much. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sunder at brainlink.com Mon Nov 9 09:30:47 1998 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:30:47 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <199811072128.NAA19724@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <36471E6E.3E8E96D4@brainlink.com> Tim May wrote: > This is the new "blind spot"...that foveal region about a third of the way > down a Web page screen that has dancing icons, "click on me" junk, and > corporate logos. My guess is that nearly all of us skip this junk > completely, and I think marketing studies will someday confirm this. (There > have been tantalizing reports in places like the "Wall Street Journal" that > basically almost nobody sees these ads, but the full message hasn't sunk > in.) > > And the advertising creeps are getting even creepier. Intel was running a > banner ad that looked like a typical Mac or Windows error/alert box, > something like "Click Here to Resume Operation." Creepy. And annoying. Yep, I ignore them completely. A few of those search here type things did catch my attention. My basic hatred of these isn't that they exist, but that they're large, annoying, and animated. Typically, soon as I see the page fully load I hit ESC or the Stop icon to prevent these evil horrors from popping up. A much more evil thing that I've seen when visiting pages of tripod or other free web site members and now warehouse.com are actual Java Japplets or JavaScripts that pop up another window with an advertisement. Tripod or one of those (I tend to try and forget the ads as hard as I can) has also taken to putting a TV like lower right corner logo that hangs around, even when you scroll the window -- what's really nasty about these fucking things is that they scroll a bit with the window, then jump back to the bottom. What's next? In your face pop up Gif89 movies with AU/WAV sound tracks that can't be dismissed until they play completely before you get to see the content pages? Some places (like Wired?) are annoying since they have a window that's 1/3 content with ads on top and on the side and bottom. I'm trying to read the fucking article, not trying to be distracted by the flashing, flickering eye sores to the right and left. :( Some of the really fucked up sites actually have porno ads with porn in them, which makes them real welcome if I ever visit a page from my work. I wouldn't mind the pr0n if I was at home, but such things are frowned upon at work, and fuck, I didn't even ask to see the shit... :( Talk about feeping creatureism. This is about as bad as flashing HTML was in its inception. Sure you can disable JavaScript, but if you do some sites won't work at all. Ditto for Japplets. Might be nice to have some sort of filter list for browsers that says "If GIF89 and (it's linked elsewhere, or to a CGI or at the top of the page)" don't show it. I guess it's time to do some Mozilla source hacking... -- =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Sunder |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== From foreclosure-world at foreclosure-world.cc Tue Nov 10 01:53:14 1998 From: foreclosure-world at foreclosure-world.cc (foreclosure-world at foreclosure-world.cc) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:53:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Accept Credit Cards Message-ID: <19981109191303.TAB09534@foreclosure-world.cc> ACCEPT CREDIT CARDS!! PRE-APPROVED APPLICATION Good Credit/Bad Credit/No Credit NO APPLICATION FEES For a Limited Time Only! Regular $195.00 Application Fee Waived For This Offer! Increase Your Business Up To 100% Or More, Just By Accepting Credit Cards! This Means More Customers...More Orders...More Money! We Specialize in Home Based Businesses - Apply Today! Accept Visa, Mastercard, American Express, and Discover! Apply Now by visiting our Online Application Site! We are overwhelmed with Responses... http://209.215.68.186/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you have received this message in error, please accept our apology as a responsible e-mailer, and reply with the word REMOVE in the subject line. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 10:08:25 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:08:25 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811091725.LAA12280@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "X" > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:22:00 -0700 > So you are one of those people that truly believes you can insult someone in > public, then say, "I was responding to you" and cap it off with "it's my > opinion" ? You have formed an opinion about me already? And that opinion > includes the fact that I want other people to carry my weight? How absurd > you are, little man! I simply based it on your apparent motivations based on your statements. > If I had thought you were serious about your article, I would have pointed > out the huge flaws in your theory. I gave you credit for well-thought > sarcasm when apparently it was neither. I'm waiting... ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 9 10:18:24 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:18:24 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:04 AM -0800 11/9/98, Declan McCullagh wrote: >I didn't see Tim's original post, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see >such a right "emerge" in claims by media company lawyers. (Probably not the >advertisers.) > >Something that came across our Reuters feed over the weekend is a lawsuit >by the whitehouse.com folks -- they're pissed that a new version of >Netscape has some "intelligent" guessing features that, when someone types >in "whitehouse," automatically take 'em to whitehouse.gov. > >Which interferes with the rights of the whitehouse.com porn site, or so the >argument goes. Seems to me there are numerous variants and angles: * If the adbuster is user-controlled, it's like handing a copy of "Time" to a butler and saying "Please clip out the articles and throw away all the ads." * And "clipping services" do this and redistribute the results to clients, perhaps with some "copyright remuneration" to the publisher (I just don't know). The ads are obviously not retained. * If a content supplier (Web page, magazine, etc.) has the power to stop adbusters from removing ads, does it also have the power to stop font changes? Or colors? Can a television commercial maker sue to stop viewers from disabling color when viewing his commercial? (Of course this wouldn't happen, for various logistical and common sense reasons, but it seems to me analogous to where users disable dancing Java applets....if disabling dancing Java applets is ruled a violation of the advertiser's leasing of the original copyright, why not block anyone who interferes with a television ad?) * The "whitehouse.com" --> "whitehouse.gov" thing is just another skirmish in the whole Namespace War. Corporations will try to get browsers and search engines to turn spelling errors or perceived errors to their favor. "intek.com" --> "intel.com" I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From whgiii at gulf.net Mon Nov 9 10:26:00 1998 From: whgiii at gulf.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:26:00 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <36471E6E.3E8E96D4@brainlink.com> Message-ID: <199811091746.LAA05131@pompano.pcola.gulf.net> In <36471E6E.3E8E96D4 at brainlink.com>, on 11/09/98 at 11:55 AM, Ray Arachelian said: >Might be nice to have some sort of filter list for browsers that says "If >GIF89 and (it's linked elsewhere, or to a CGI or at the top of the page)" >don't show it. I guess it's time to do some Mozilla source hacking... Rather than hacking nutscrape you might want to run through a modified proxy and have it filter all such garbage. This stuff is not a problem as I only run textmode for http with no java/javascript. If I can't navigate a website that way it is their loss. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From stuffed at stuffed.net Tue Nov 10 02:36:53 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED TUE NOV 10) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:36:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981110081000.6668.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + FAST LOADING XXX HARDCORE + WHITE CHOCOLATE + BLOW BABY BLOW + NYMPHO9 + ASIAN SLUTS + SAVING RYAN'S PRIVATES + PLAYSX + BLONDES WITH BIG TITS + BITCHES IN HEAT + MIDNIGHT PASSION + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/13204.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/18769.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/10668.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/19144.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/24117.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From xasper8d at lobo.net Mon Nov 9 11:01:27 1998 From: xasper8d at lobo.net (X) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:01:27 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811091725.LAA12280@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <000b01be0c0f$19720c60$9d2580d0@ibm> Sorry, everyone, for this crap coming up, but JIM CHOATE wants you all to see it... Jim, You keep reposting this to the cpunx list, and I keep trying to discuss it with you in private. X says: ~> > If I had thought you were serious about your article, I would ~> have pointed ~> > out the huge flaws in your theory. I gave you credit for well-thought ~> > sarcasm when apparently it was neither. ~> And Jim's witty response was: ~> I'm waiting... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the gist of your system was a two-tiered payment schedule where Group A could be called TaxPayers and Group B could be called NON-Payers. Right? And basically, Group A would get all of the benefits that a fully paid membership would entail, right? Secondly, Group B would "not pay taxes" and would NOT be entitled to any benefits save for on a pay-as-you-go type arrangement. Right? What USGov't services do you include in your proposal? Let's list a few, (feel free to jump in with some more.) U.S. Mail services Common defense Air traffic controlling roadways and interstates Food and Drug Administration approvals Federally mandated minimum wage automobile safety standards Is your tax progressive or regressive? If I'm right so far (which I may or may not be) then we have to talk about your definition of "paying taxes." Does a single woman raising five kids and paying a small mortgage making $14,200 per year pay taxes? No, unfortunately for her, she doesn't. I guess that puts her smack into GROUP B! Well, that's simple enough! We'll deny her the creature comforts of the list above until she chips in her proportionate cost, right? When that libertarian bitch tries to send mail, we'll charge her more! WHen she gets on the freeway, we'll toll her! When she buys a medicine for her snot-nosed urchin, we'll give her the stuff that ain't been FDA approved, right? RIGHT! And, if ever we should need to attack another country (or defend ours, as you pointed out) SHE'LL happily volunteer to serve (as I remember your post) in order to protect her TAX-FREE STATUS. As you said to me, she's probably just looking for someone to shoulder her part of the load, right? You said it would be easy to implement, right? I don't see that it would be easy at all. Once again, I apologize for the OFF TOPIC nature of this, but MR. COHATE (freudian slip, or merely coincidence? you be the judge!) insisted on duking this out in public. X From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 9 11:02:35 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:02:35 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B258@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: At 4:25 PM -0500 11/6/98, Matthew James Gering wrote: >Matthew James Gering wrote: >> >Provided you don't corrupt the meaning of free-market to include >> >any possible black market, then yes, there will *always* be a >> >black market. It can be made rather insignificant however. > >Petro responded: >> Assuming your definition of "free market" is "a market without >> regulation", you can't have a black market in a free market >> since a black market is trade in violation of regulations. > >Like I said, if you don't corrupt the meaning of free market. >Laissez Faire capitalism is based on a concept of individual rights. >Therefore the proper role of any government (in a libertarian state) or >individual/social institution (in rational anarchy) is to protect individual >rights (life, liberty, property), and act as an objective framework for >retributive force. >Therefore, any transaction that violates individual rights is immoral (if >not illegal) and constitutes a black market. >e.g. assassinations, ransom, stolen goods, extortion, slavery, etc. >To create a anarcho-capitalist definition of free market where everything >goes and there is no concept of individual rights is as immoral and perverse >as the statist concepts that similarly have no concept of individual rights >(fascism, communism). Traditional usage of the term "black market" (at least in my experience with the term) includes the markets for things often proscribed (such as weapons, drugs, abortions) or marketed outside of the legally mandated channels (food, clothing, liquor etc. purchased from non-approved stores) or w/out government approved taxes being levied. Legal issues, not moral ones. To try to discuss the markets in terms of "human rights", or to expect the market to reflect ones own morality is ridiculous. Is slavery wrong? Would a Saudi Arabian, or a Kuwaitee (Kuwaition?) agree? What about drugs, does their use violate your human rights principle? Would someone from the South Side of Chicago, or Watts agree? The market itself is only concerned with legality, not morality. Discussions of right and wrong do not take place at that point, and neither do questions of "human rights". My point was that as you move towards the "ideal" of a free market, there is less and less that one can call a "black market". True, things can still be illegal--Slavery, drugs and the rest, and those things which Oh, and Extortion is already part of the market, it's called taxes. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 9 11:08:28 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:08:28 +0800 Subject: Fwd: [ISN] Wang touts spy-proof portable Message-ID: <199811091833.TAA14454@replay.com> >X-Authentication-Warning: enigma.repsec.com: majordomo set sender to >owner-isn at repsec.com using -f >Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:35:22 -0700 (MST) >From: mea culpa >To: InfoSec News >Subject: [ISN] Wang touts spy-proof portable >X-NoSpam: Pursuant to US Code; Title 47; Chapter 5; Subchapter II; 227 >X-NoSpam: any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address >X-NoSpam: is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. >X-NoSpam: E-mailing to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. >X-Copyright: This e-mail copyright 1998 by jericho at dimensional.com >Sender: owner-isn at repsec.com >Reply-To: mea culpa >x-unsubscribe: echo "unsubscribe isn" | mail majordomo at repsec.com >x-infosecnews: x-loop, procmail, etc > > >Forwarded From: William Knowles > >[News.com] (11.8.98) Wang Global has introduced a new portable computer, >but it's not going to be winning any svelteness contests. > >Wang's Tempest Mobile Workstation, 3 inches thick and weighting 14.5 >pounds, is designed for government officials who need spy-proof computers >that don't leak any telltale signals to electronic eavesdroppers. > >The boxes are designed to meet the U.S. government's "Tempest" >specification, which requires a computer to release extremely low amounts >of electromagnetic emissions that could reveal what information the >computer is processing. > >To protect against such emissions, Tempest-compliant machines must be >encased in a lot of metal. Wang's portable looks like a thick laptop, said >Wang spokeswoman Loretta Day, "but it's really so heavy, you can't really >call it a laptop" --all that metal would make it quite a burden for your >lap. > >As an added bonus, all that metal shields the computer from the >electromagnetic pulse (EMP) generated by an exploding nuclear bomb that >wreaks havoc with anything electronic. > >When it's running, the machine can withstand a shock of five Gs--that's >five times the acceleration caused by the Earth's gravity. But when it's >switched off, it can take a 60-G shock. > >Aside from being spy-proof, the new Wang system has some features that are >familiar to ordinary buyers: a 15.1-inch LCD screen, a 233-MHz or 266-MHz >Pentium II processor, a CD-ROM drive, and your choice of a 4GB, 6GB, or >8GB removable hard disk. > >Wang also makes Tempest-compliant desktop computers, printers, routers, >switches, and servers. It's one of a handful of such companies that supply >the equipment to the government. Day said the chief customers are the >State Department and intelligence agencies. Wang also makes computer >equipment that complies with the Zone standard, similar to but less >stringent than the Tempest standard. > >Pricing on the Wang portable wasn't available, but a competitor's Tempest >portable computer with more lesser features was listed at one government >Web site as costing more than $10,000. > > >-o- >Subscribe: mail majordomo at repsec.com with "subscribe isn". >Today's ISN Sponsor: Repent Security Incorporated [www.repsec.com] From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 9 11:26:36 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:26:36 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <199811091403.GAA27556@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: At 9:50 AM -0800 11/9/98, Tim May wrote: >Seems to me there are numerous variants and angles: > >* If the adbuster is user-controlled, it's like handing a copy of "Time" to >a butler and saying "Please clip out the articles and throw away all the >ads." > >* And "clipping services" do this and redistribute the results to clients, >perhaps with some "copyright remuneration" to the publisher (I just don't >know). The ads are obviously not retained. By the way, the White House and Pentagon are major forwarders of clipped material. The daily intelligence briefing, for example, clips from newspapers, magazines, wire services, etc. I can understand Declan trying to be a loyal reporter by urging people to buy the magazine or go to the ad-laden site, but clearly a lot of folks are already bouncing stuff around cyberspace, including the White House. It is _remotely_ possible that the gov't. is paying some token amount to Time Warner, CNN, WSJ, etc., but I doubt it. Speaking of the gov't. conveniently ignoring what it expects private players to do, a few days before the California election I got a telephone phone solicitation from a male voice identifying himself as the Calif. Secretary of State. Ordinary advertising, right? Well, it was a) left on my answering machine, and b) was itself a recording. California officials not subject to the "robot's rules of order" laws, which forbid the practices above, especially in combination. You can bet that if J. Random Corporation was using robot dialers and leaving recorded messages on answering machines there would be the threat of prosecution. (Actually, most threats to corporations are just shakedowns, and are considered discharged when the corporation makes the appropriate campaign contribution.) Of course, in a system where the Chief Executive can perjure himself with impunity, can suborn perjury, can tamper with evidence, and can use public monies to cause his subordinates to suborn perjury and perjure and tamper with evidence.... (Not to mention violating the export laws and committing high treason by supplying the Red Chinese with ICBM technology....and kiling Vince Foster for his attack of conscience and his plans to meet with a reporter....) Ah, Amerika. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl Mon Nov 9 11:27:33 1998 From: s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl (Jan Dobrucki) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:27:33 +0800 Subject: SR2201 Supercomputer Message-ID: <36473A7F.E5BDC1F5@qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl> http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Prod/comp/hpc/eng/sr1.html Is the link for more information, in english... And I can't find a stupid computer and a printer in one place that prints postscript so I still haven't been able to give in my application for the account on this super computer... JD From s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl Mon Nov 9 11:31:08 1998 From: s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl (Jan Dobrucki) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:31:08 +0800 Subject: SR2201 Supercomputer Message-ID: <36473AA1.4BB5F5B5@qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl> http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Prod/comp/hpc/eng/sr1.html Is the link for more information, in english... And I can't find a stupid computer and a printer in one place that prints postscript so I still haven't been able to give in my application for the account on this super computer... JD From s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl Mon Nov 9 11:55:37 1998 From: s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl (Jan Dobrucki) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:55:37 +0800 Subject: SR2201 Supercomputer Message-ID: <36473F38.5D764835@qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl> http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Prod/comp/hpc/eng/sr1.html Is the link for more information, in english... And I can't find a stupid computer and a printer in one place that prints postscript so I still haven't been able to give in my application for the account on this super computer... JD From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 9 12:08:00 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 04:08:00 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811062338.RAA00510@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 6:38 PM -0500 11/6/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:34:34 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone >> (fwd) > >> Assuming your definition of "free market" is "a market without >> regulation", you can't have a black market in a free market since a black >> market is trade in violation of regulations. > >Actualy a black market is usualy goods gotten through theft or other illegal >means, not necessarily anything related to how or what is sold. If you don't >corrupt free-market to include legitimizing theft as a viable market >strategy then yes, you can in fact have a black market in a free-market. Usualy != Correctly. Take tomatoes. Perfectly legal (AFAIK) everywhere, here in this country a 5 year old child can buy a tomato from a farmer with a stand on the side of the road. If you go back 10 years, and if "this country" was the soviet union, a tomato purchased from the wrong person could get you in trouble. Entirely HOW the item was sold. This is true in this coutry. Licquor is legal if purchased thru the approved store. Try selling the same thing out of the back of your truck. It is the product, or how the product is sold. >Let's consider auto-theft. The issue isn't that you can't buy the car >through legitimate means, it just means you have to have more resources than So take ampthetimines (well, don't take them, but take the case of them), if I get them from Joe Random Drug Dealer, it's black Market, if I get them from Paul the Doctor, it's "white" market. In fact, if I get them from Paul the Doctor, and then sell them to someone else, I am selling them on the black market, even if I recieved them legally, so in this case, it isn't how the item was aquired, it's whether the _sale_, the *exchange* is legal. >you have. So what do you do? You find somebody whose stolen a vehicle and is >willing to sell it to you at a discount. > >> In other words, a Black market is when you trade either illegal >> goods illegally, or legal goods illegally. >Too strict and unrealistic a definition of black market. Not at all. It's quite wide open. It covers every non-legal transaction. >> If there are no illegal goods, and there is no regulations limiting >> trading, then the black market cannot exist. >Of course not since we've now legitimized theft and murder with your >definition. I didn't think of theft when I wrote the above, and I don't usually consider murder for hire markets as part of the black market, altho you have a point. I still maintain that as one moves closer to a completely free market, there is less and less of a black market, and to be the extrememe case of a free market, there would be the potential to trade in both human lives, and in stolen property. In a free market, the selling of stolen goods might not be a crime in and of itself, but the posession of those things could be, and the aquireing would be, as well, the _hiring_ of an assassin might be legal, as long as no killing took place. When it does, you hang the assassin on murder, and the hirer on conspiracy, aiding and abetting or whatever, and stick them in the same cell. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 13:20:38 1998 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:20:38 +0800 Subject: Grounding (fwd) Message-ID: <19981109204003.20193.qmail@nym.alias.net> Jim Dolt writes: > The spark gap generates sparks and that builds up free electrons in the > space inside the sphere (whether it is gas filled or a vacuum is > irrelevant). As that charge builds up it will be all of one type, electrons. > Now the electrons repel each other and therefor move in a circular motion > with the spark gap as the center. They strike the surface of the sphere and > tunnel through to the outside surface where they reside. The amount of > charge at any one point is related to the curvature of the surface at that > point. Since a sphere is constant curvature the charge will be evenly > distributed. It will continue to build up so long as you supply power to the > spark gap. In an ideal world it will get bigger and bigger. In the real > world at some point insulation breaks down and normal current flow takes > place. Listen to this. Jim Dolt thinks that a spark gap inside a conductive sphere will cause charge to build up on the surface of the sphere! The dunderhead has forgotten about conservation of charge! Gauss' law says that the charge on the outer surface of a closed conductive sphere will be equal to the net charge inside the sphere. The spark gap can't change the net charge inside the sphere, it can just move charge around. Jim Dolt has conveniently forgotten about the net positive charge which will build up on the spark gap as it (supposedly) emits electrons. His Doltish notion that electrons will hit the inside of the sphere and "tunnel through" to the outside is totally confused. Suppose this happened. We've removed negative charges from the interior of the sphere and put them on the outside, where they would give the sphere a negative charge. Now, what is the net charge on the interior of the sphere? We started neutral and removed negatives, hence it's positive! Gauss' law would imply that the sphere must have a positive charge. But Jim Dolt tried to give it a negative charge from all those electrons that "tunneled through." The whole idea is ludicrous. No charge can spontaneously appear on the outside of an ideal closed conductive sphere. This would be a violation of the law of conservation of charge. By Gauss' law, the charge on the outside is equal to the net charge on the inside. If a sphere, just sitting there in empty space, suddenly develops a charge, then that means that the interior has manufactured charge out of nothing. It is impossible. The fundamental misconception that started this whole sad comedy of Doltish errors was Jim Dolt's belief that a Faraday cage has to be grounded in order to suppress electromagnetic radiation. This has led us to his revelation of his further misunderstandings of how charge behaves inside a conductive surface, not to mention his numerous errors about the mechanism by which a spark gap transmitter generates EM radiation. (Hint: it has nothing to do with a cloud of electrons spreading out from the spark gap!) The fact is, Jim Choate knows nothing about this topic, and the same is true for most subjects that he writes about. He loves the attention he gets, but if more people told him they knew how worthless his contributions are, he just might go bother someone else. From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 9 13:56:41 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:56:41 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811081809.MAA05525@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 1:09 PM -0500 11/8/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Just face it. It isn't the threat of violence that pisses you off. It's that >you have social responsibilities to those around you. Taxes represent a >responsibility that you don't want and to hell with the consequences. No, it's that facists & socialists like yourself think we should be happy letting you decide what our social responsibilities are. I am perfectly willing to pay for a police force. A police force that arrests ALLEGED rapists, treats them like human beings until found guilty and then deals with them as the law indicates. I am NOT willing to pay for a police force that spends most of it's time (well, aside from eating doughnuts, drinking coffee and collecting bribes) chasing after teenagers with illegal chemicals. I am not willing to pay for a police force that extorts money from these same teenagers. I am not willing to pay money for a police force that thinks it needs to arrest people for "loitering", "Mob Action", when it's defined as more than 4 people standing together in a public place, and ESPECIALLY when EVERY TIME THEY ARREST SOMEONE, IT'S THROWN OUT OF COURT. I am willing to pay for the streets I use. I am not willing to pay the same fees to ride my bicycle (my current primary form of transportation) as you do to drive your 2 ton SUV. I am willing to pay for fire protection. I am not willing to pay for "universal health care", "welfare", and other such nonsense. In other words Jim, Fuck You. I, and I'd bet most people here, including Mr. May, are perfectly willing, and hell even eager to pay their share, to assume their social responcibility, they just get very, very angry at having to pay OTHER peoples social responcibility, and get very, very angry at having to pay for other shit (Senate Luncheons and Swimming Pools, the Militaries greatly inflated budget, all the waste that is todays federal government). They get even angrier when some putz like you comes along and tries to tell them what their social responcibility is. >> anyone else from telling it to fuck off? Such a state cannot govern >> those who do not wish to be governed, and so would not be a government. > >No state can govern those who don't wish to be governed, violence or no. Yes, but a state can kill those who don't wish to be governed. Can and does routinely. >[I've deleted a great gob of this since it's the same just rehashed in >different sentences.] But did you bother to read them this time? -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 9 14:24:22 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:24:22 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811090631.AAA09682@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811092156.NAA13957@netcom13.netcom.com> country have let it get out of control for many decades. the idea that "someone else handles that stuff" has infected our consciousness. govt is something WE handle if we want a good one. if you want something done right, do it yourself. cpunks actually contribute to this problem with their nihilistic philosophy in general. the msg is that it is a waste of time to engage in group activity or political discourse or lobbying against the govt or organization or *whatever*... it's actually just a variant on the sheeple passivity. sheeple are like, "that's not my job". cpunks are like, "it is a waste of time and energy to do that job". what's the difference in the end?? the govt can be turned around very, very quickly if the public stops sucking down sixpacks and being hypnotized by meaningless dribble of sporting events and sitcoms that parade endlessly across their nanosecond attention span. maybe they might read even more than a comic book or pornographic magazine some day. the political class *intentionally* created this bread and circus atmosphere and are hiding behind the scenes as we speak. no dorothy do not look at the man behind the curtain. some new books are encouraging signs. "secrecy" by moynihan. there is a new book on the "third party" or something like that which proposes a new political party, and is selling very well on amazon. a new book by gerry spence lawyer talks about how the u.s. population is enslaved. the material is there for those who seek it. "when the student is ready the teacher will appear" From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 9 14:33:25 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:33:25 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811092156.NAA13957@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199811092210.OAA15146@netcom13.netcom.com> mail fwder seemed to have messed up my msg line here is a repost: Jim: the govt is the way it is because the sheeple of this country have let it get out of control for many decades. the idea that "someone else handles that stuff" has infected our consciousness. govt is something WE handle if we want a good one. if you want something done right, do it yourself. cpunks actually contribute to this problem with their nihilistic philosophy in general. the msg is that it is a waste of time to engage in group activity or political discourse or lobbying against the govt or organization or *whatever*... it's actually just a variant on the sheeple passivity. sheeple are like, "that's not my job". cpunks are like, "it is a waste of time and energy to do that job". what's the difference in the end?? the govt can be turned around very, very quickly if the public stops sucking down sixpacks and being hypnotized by meaningless dribble of sporting events and sitcoms that parade endlessly across their nanosecond attention span. maybe they might read even more than a comic book or pornographic magazine some day. the political class *intentionally* created this bread and circus atmosphere and are hiding behind the scenes as we speak. no dorothy do not look at the man behind the curtain. some new books are encouraging signs. "secrecy" by moynihan. there is a new book on the "third party" or something like that which proposes a new political party, and is selling very well on amazon. a new book by gerry spence lawyer talks about how the u.s. population is enslaved. the material is there for those who seek it. "when the student is ready the teacher will appear" From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 9 14:41:17 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:41:17 +0800 Subject: IP: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation Message-ID: <199811092205.OAA14797@netcom13.netcom.com> From: softwar at us.net (CharlesSmith) Subject: IP: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:53:35 -0500 (EST) To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com President Clinton has tried to avoid the subject of encryption exports to China while considering the release of Israeli crypto-spy Jonathan Pollard. Yet, encryption has played a large role in a foreign donation scandal with one of Clinton's closest associates, Webster Hubbell. After losing at the polls, Republican insiders are grumbling that they could not investigate Hubbell because the secret National Security Agency (NSA) is threatening to retaliate against hill members. Webster Hubbell took money from Lippo in 1994. Mr. Hubbell served time in Federal prison because of his Whitewater uncovered during Ken Starr's investigation. In 1993, Attorney General Janet Reno tasked Mr. Hubbell to encryption under the CLIPPER encryption chip project. Hubbell had access to highly classified materials on encryption chip design, including algorithms and software. Hubbell met often in the White House with now CIA Director George Tenet on the CLIPPER project. According to a Republican Capitol Hill staff member the "NSA does not want Hubbell investigated." The NSA has quietly threatened to "out any congressional member like (Congressman) Burton" who mentions Hubbell with encryption and China. The NSA threat is not a hollow one because the agency is certainly equipped with incriminating and/or embarrassing personal information gathered from years of phone intercepts. The NSA is the prime listening agency for national intelligence. The NSA is equipped with satellites, super computers, employs an estimated 25,000 and has a budget estimated to be one third of the $26 billion U.S. intelligence budget each year. John Huang, Ron Brown and Web Hubbell were deeply involved in classified NSA encryption systems. Specifically, John Huang, Lippo banker, DNC fundraiser and secret-cleared Commerce employee was briefed 37 times by the CIA on satellite encryption technology. According to the Commerce Department, Mr. Huang had no encryption materials. CLIPPER, according to secret Clinton documents, was to be implemented by law whether it by "mandatory" legislation or a "voluntary" system of taxpayer backed payments. The CLIPPER chip, according to a secret FBI document, also had an "exploitable" feature allowing the U.S. government to monitor communications. The NSA CLIPPER chip was intended to provide all the banking and financial security for the entire United States. It was to be required in every computer, fax and phone manufactured. According to more secret FBI documents, CLIPPER also had one big flaw. A single penetration of the master key list would compromise the entire system. Ron Brown insisted that the Commerce Department be one of the master CLIPPER key holders. President Clinton tasked Brown to the project in 1993 in a top-secret executive order. According to Nolinda Hill, Brown was aware that the encryption transfers to China were bordering on treason. NASA administrator Benita Cooper wrote in 1993 that "compromise of the NSA keys, such as in the Walker case, could compromise the entire EES (CLIPPER) system." Ms. Cooper at NASA knew convicted spy John Walker sent tons of materials on U.S. secret code systems to Russia for years during the Cold War. One breach of CLIPPER in a NASA computer could kill many and ruin the agency. In 1994 President Clinton began personally authorizing the export of advanced, nuclear hardened, encryption technology directly to communist China. The exports took place with presidential waivers that included the signature of Bill Clinton. They also took place using loopholes and bureaucratic gray areas of U.S. export law. The Clinton exports included such military items as advanced fiber optic communications; radiation hardened encrypted satellite control systems, encrypted radios and cellular phones, and encrypted navigation systems. According to the GAO, President Clinton even approved the sale of a fully operational, secure air traffic control system for the Chinese Air Force. The failure of the NSA CLIPPER project is already a blot on the secret agency based at Ft. Meade. The possibility that Chinese agents penetrated the NSA project would bring encryption to the forefront of public debate and shine intense light on an inept intelligence agency. The seemingly crazy Clinton policy shows our President to be crazy like a fox. Clinton did what Pollard and Walker could not do. President Clinton sold national security secrets for cash by writing his own legal waivers. Clinton's secret crypto policy served to line the pockets of politicians and greedy corporate executives with red money. The Clinton export policy has significantly upgraded the nuclear strategic and tactical firepower of the Chinese Army. Clinton, like Walker and Pollard, sold military code secrets for cash. America knows more about AREA-51 and UFOs than Ft. Meade and Webster Hubbell. Bill Clinton and his China crypto-tale will never be declassified for the American people. The Clinton scandal cover-up is backed by the NSA library of greatest intercepts against Republicans. ================================================================ Information on CLIPPER, Ron Brown and Vince Foster - http://www.softwar.net/clip.html ================================================================ 1 if by land, 2 if by sea. Paul Revere - encryption 1775 Charles R. Smith SOFTWAR http://www.softwar.net softwar at softwar.net Pcyphered SIGNATURE: 93513049E31CC7BD371748D388E8EED0A73B5D3D90AF3349F8A40E5DE61B4ABD 3CAC50EF4BFE2CF287C9843E6E4676B2D9D710EB301CB0E05B5F52B2D1448A04 90B9E2F4C67594DF =============================================================== SOFTWAR EMAIL NEWSLETTER 11/08/1998 *** to unsubscribe reply with "unsubscribe" as subject *** ================================================================ **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From jim.burnes at ssds.com Mon Nov 9 15:05:47 1998 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes - Denver) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:05:47 +0800 Subject: black markets and color of law (was privacy fetish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Petro wrote: > > If you go back 10 years, and if "this country" was the soviet > union, a tomato purchased from the wrong person could get you in trouble. > > Entirely HOW the item was sold. > > This is true in this coutry. Licquor is legal if purchased thru the > approved store. > > Try selling the same thing out of the back of your truck. > > It is the product, or how the product is sold. > Why is this so hard to fathom. Black markets are simply markets that are not approved of by the reigning force monopoly. That could also be read as illegal, however, there are many goods in the united states that are only illegal by color of law, not in actual fact. Of course the fact that the regulations are only under color of law won't stop you from spending time in the cooler if you're caught. Most of these laws have to do with assigning law making to bureacrats. Are there any legal historians out there that have researched the nature of bureaucracies like the FDA, DEA and BATF and the lattitude that congress has given them in declaring various good illegal? How much power could congress hand over to a department before the law giving them the power could be declared unconstitutional? For example, a constitutional amendment was necessary to make alcohol illegal. Why was this necessary? Why was it not necessary to do the same for every other substance? And if not for every other substance, then for substances in general? "Congress shall have the power to declare intrastate trade in various products illegal." It would be very simple. It would be *the* prohibition act. It would cover everything from encryption, to newpapers, to alcohol and other drugs. What is the basis for bureaucratic power and has it ever been formally challenged in the supreme court? My guess is that this power has not been seriously challenged since Roosevelt stacked the Supreme Court and they decided that the the welfare clause was a broad grant of power to the federal government. If I remember correctly, a closely related decision by the Supreme stated that the commerce clause did not allow the banning of weapons from "school zones" because even though having weapons in school zones might effect commerce it would effect to such a small degree that the commerce clause didn't reach that far. The supreme court said they didn't know how far it did reach. It would be interesting to push the supreme to rule on the welfare clause. Could it reach far enough to ban nicotine? Could it reach far enough to grab the fatty mc'ds hamburger out of your hand? Could it tell you what sports are too dangerous? What about skiing? Car driving? Parachuting? Scuba diving? I'm beginning to look forward to Y2K. jim From mgering at ecosystems.net Mon Nov 9 15:22:56 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:22:56 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B269@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Jim Choate wrote: > What happens when you have somebody on a fixed or small income. > Is your position that the paultry sum they can raise will be > taken seriously in regards compensating either the insurance > company or the fire dept.? What if they are on a fixed or small income and need food? Medical care? Etc. Should be make food retail and medical services both tax-supported government-mandated monopolies to accommodate those people who do not produce enough that they need a free lunch provided by someone more productive? It is the same argument used to continue our massive failure of a public educational system. There is no valid reason to intertwine "welfare" with the service, and there are many reasons not to -- e.g. it treats items as commodity services that should not be (esp. education), it creates false "rights" (e.g. right to education), it creates a coercive monopoly immune to market competition, and since people don't have to *evaluate* the service for spending decisions, they tend to *value* it less if at all. With welfare completely divorced from services, you can get a clear sight of the real cost (negative value) of the socialistic support system, and also of the productive output (positive value) of the service produced and those willing and able to consume it. > > willing to pay the local fire department a fee to stand > > ready to come and put out fires for me. > > You do it already, it's called taxes. No, he said *willing*. > No, without taxes funding a civic police department with If you claim that a service won't exist without public tax funding, then you are essentially claiming that people do not value that service enough to privately pay for it. So we should instead force them to pay for it? > connections to other police agencies around the country > you're hope of finding the perp is nil. And these connections won't exist if they are private entities? Perhaps they will have less chance if the agencies are bound to the same limitations as individuals in regards to privacy and liberty, but that is a good thing. > Oh, yeah. You and a couple of your beer buddies have like a > real hope in hell of matching the capabilities of a real > police homicide or rape investigation. Get fucking real. But that is not to say a private organization would not have matching capabilities. You cannot look at current PI's for the same reason as you cannot look at private education as what would exist in absence of the publicly mandated one. Lack of suitable competition is due to government-created monopolistic conditions. Matt From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 9 15:58:40 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:58:40 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <199811091403.GAA27556@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: At 12:50 PM -0500 11/9/98, Tim May wrote: >I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. Why, so you don't have to shoot yourself? -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 9 16:18:47 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (bill.stewart at pobox.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:18:47 +0800 Subject: Semi-relevant spam - Re: legislation -- read In-Reply-To: <199811061627.JAA16550@token1.tokensystems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981109092119.008aab80@idiom.com> It was SPAM, but it does have some relevance to the digital cash business, so I'll comment on it. The IP address really is tokensystems.com. They're in the business of selling tokens and/or tickets which customers can buy and use to pay for access to web sites, and which web site owners can redeem for cash with tokensystems. Tickets cost $1 (I think something they sell is 10 cents, though), and tokensystems keeps 40% of the take, giving the web site 60%. The target market is viewing artwork on the net, and they claim to have sold over 4 million tokens, presumably mostly the porn market (unlike Mark Twain, which probably never handled that much Digicash :-) The attraction for customers is that unlike plunking down $X on credit card for membership at a given web site that they might or might not think was worthwhile, creates lots of credit card transaction records, and which would definitely sell their info to spammers, they make one transaction and buy tokens which can be used at multiple sites, reducing the number of transactions. Tokensystems doesn't list a privacy policy (except that they offer a ticket-buying page that doesn't have porn ads for sites that prefer it). Don't know if this means they don't have a policy, or if their policy is to sell customer info to anyone they can. If they do offer privacy, they might want to post a privacy policy page (usng whatever ETrust / TrustE calls itself these days), and it might be an interesting market for Chaumian blinded tokens, since customers might like knowing their token uses aren't traceable back to their purchase records. They also don't say what they do for fraud prevention - looks like it's probably online clearing, which reduces their risk, and makes digicash relatively convenient to deploy. At 09:27 AM 11/6/98 -0700, bob at tokensystems.com wrote: >Dear Fellow Webmaster: > >The recent events and pending legislation that have rocked the web are >sure to place new restrictions on the business. We think this is a >very good solution. > >Check it out http://209.203.80.254/exe/tpromo1.cgi?7026131 > >Or call us if you have any questions. >Bob >818-559-3484 > > > > Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mgering at ecosystems.net Mon Nov 9 16:30:48 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:30:48 +0800 Subject: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B26A@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Uh, what in the hell is "advanced, nuclear hardened, encryption technology" ? Matt From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 9 16:31:04 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:31:04 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) In-Reply-To: <199811090115.RAA23804@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: <199811092238.WAA06689@server.eternity.org> Declan McCullagh writes: > Whether you love or hate current copyright laws, it's a stretch to argue > that it's legal to republish (by forwarding) articles in full. Who cares if it's legal or not. Copyright only "works" to the extent of readers good-will (beggarware/shareware approach "please don't copy") and to the extent that thugs from your local force monopoly can enforce it at gun-point. I think the conclusion of crypto-anarchy is that copyright seems unlikely to survive as a schelling point for making money from publications. You can make money from information provision by charging extra for up-to-date news, or by charging so little that the cost from the original provider is so low that it's not worth anyones time to redistribute it, or by providing higher bandwidth connection to the net than the mirrors, or by making do with click throughs from the percentage of people who use the original rather than the cheaper mirror. Recursive auction market is a statement of reality if you make things too expensive to the reader. Overdoing the banners may be overdoing it already, viz the banner stripping attempts. The problem from wireds point of view is that they want their 1% click through rate to derive their funds. But that is their problem, and for them to develop strategies for obtaining funds in this landscape. To say it's "not legal to republish" is saying what? that you think thugs with guns should enforce bit flow controls? That wired plans to make use of these force monopoly services? I agree with Jim and Vladimir, I find it annoying to see URLs only, and the teasers (5 lines telling cut off just where it may or may not get interesting) are irritating too, as they tell you almost nothing. I'd rather see nothing or someone summarise or post the whole thing, or at least the interesting bits if it is highly relevant. Mostly it is just background clutter, most "news" isn't interesting at all. Adam From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 9 16:31:38 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:31:38 +0800 Subject: Guy, anti-copyright hacker (Re: Advertising Creepiness) In-Reply-To: <199811091519.KAA01473@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: <199811092326.XAA06747@server.eternity.org> Information Security writes: > Declan writes: > > Willfully redistributing copyrighted material in violation of fair > > use principles is, depending on the value, also a federal > > crime. Redistributing a $1 article to thousands of people would be > > a felony. (Note I don't endorse this law, but it's useful to know > > what the law is.) > > I guess that qualifies as a request for more color. > > In the local Panix Usenet groups, I've reposted quite a few whole articles, > often from the IP list. > > Finally, a couple people made a stink, and officially complained to Panix. > > [snip panix owner backing down and not interfering with Guy's posts of > whole supposedly copyrighted material] Nice one Guy! The zen approach, it reminds me of a tactic to do with USENET cancel forgeries used by a recentish poster to this list who you made much a-do about being a terminator of. You are not my any chance a cleverly disguised nym of his? > So, I was allowed to continue posting whole articles. > > That's what the lawyers advised. > > Then, the Digital Copyright Massive Federal Interference Act... > > > Fair Use vs. Intellectual Property: The U.S. Congress > > passed the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, a bill designed to > > distinguish between fair use and protected intellectual property > > in cyberspace. > > > > > > I chose the IP list as the next-level test case... I'm curious ... how have you faired since the millenium copyright act with panix? Any results? Or is this still on-going? Keep up the good work! Adam From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 9 16:33:57 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:33:57 +0800 Subject: IP: Crunch Time for Y2K Suppliers (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811090310.TAA18290@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: <199811092255.WAA06718@server.eternity.org> Declan McCullagh writes: > I'm not sure I like intellectual property laws in general -- like some > libertarians, I might prefer a contract-based system. But for now I support > civil laws to punish copyright infringements, and it seems to me it's > difficult to argue that redistributing entire articles isn't one. Ah good -- I thought you'd taken leave of your cypherpunkly senses for a moment there! (re my `fuck copyright' post). > Besides, and more importantly, it's also rude. That it might be, if it is a social says that it is polite to honor peoples requests about bit flow. But hey, if more and more people find ignoring the supposed social convention convenient, then perhaps this social convention isn't as widely adhered to as people making money off subsidized copyright enforcement thugs might like to claim it is. ie. IMO social conventions on copyright are moving, and quite fast. And copyright has a hidden cost which we are all paying for. Adam From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 9 16:38:14 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:38:14 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force In-Reply-To: <199811090528.VAA01234@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199811092311.XAA06732@server.eternity.org> Vladimir writes: > what we really need is a government which can personalize its > services, and people pay for what they use. yes, agree. In other words we need freedom for business to compete in provision of all services currently monopolised by government. > more and more this is becoming technically feasible. it will bring > the potential of capitalistic competition and free markets to > govt. how? well services that no one uses will tend to whither, and > the healthy ones will receive greater budgets. But also you need multiple providers of services, otherwise your freedom of choice is limited. If you can opt out of literally any goverment service, I suspect government revenues would nearly disappear. Everything they "supply" can be supplied more cheaply by business. So what government remained would have to compete on a fair basis with private industry. > the big quandary is people who can't pay for what they use > like social security. ultimately the question is how much > money the state has the authority to collect for this kind of > thing, and the political answer has varied every year, but it > has gone up every year in the 20th century generally. I think the state should have no authority to collect anything. Charity at the point of a gun is not charity. The state is an extremely inefficient distributor of charitable funds anyway. > the big problem imho is fraud/waste/corruption in govt though. I > think if a lot of it were eliminated we would be flabbergasted at > how little a personal contribution it takes to take care of people > who need it. bureaucracies are the most expensive thing on the > planet. here's hoping that cyberspace will cut through the > *ultimate* middleman: govt. Amen to that. Adam From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 9 16:38:29 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:38:29 +0800 Subject: Digicash bankruptcy In-Reply-To: <9811091614.AA00393@ch1d524iwk> Message-ID: <199811092333.XAA06759@server.eternity.org> Andrew Loewenstern writes: > Phill writes: > > The fact that Chaum didn't have the monopoly he appeared to > > imagine is probably why nobody was queuing up to pay his > > demands. > > Name some other deployable payer anonymous electronic payment > systems that are in competetion with DigiCash. Stefan Brands patents? Not sure if digicash would claim these infringe the blind sig patents. Ian Goldberg's HINDE/money changer with or without blinding -- in general notion that you can obtain anonymity by anonymous exchange from a trusted money changer, or with blinding from an untrusted money changer. As with remailers you can increase the strength of anonymity by chaining through multiple money changers. Or perhaps Doug Barne's proposal for a identity agnositic bank and blinding clients distributed from jurisdictions where doesn't have patents? (The client is the software which does the blinding). Pseudonymous approach to anonymity -- ecash accounts without an TrueName indentity bound to them. Others? (Ryan you suggested 5 but didn't list them explicitly?) Adam From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 9 16:40:06 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:40:06 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811092247.WAA06698@server.eternity.org> Tim May writes: > I expect banner ads to die out soon enough. The technology is just too > amenable to filters. > > Adbusters for television have been talked about for years, but I know of no > reliable adbusters...and an adbuster for t.v. doesn't save too much (since > the 2-minute or whatever gap is still there). Taping and then > fast-forwarding through ads is probably more convenient than an adbuster in > realtime. I think the idea of fast-forward for a TV would be a nice product. Say that you had a high capacity video CD hooked up to TV. Record it all in a rolling backup of the weeks TV. Then you can skip around, forward over junk (ads, unintersting patches). Probably you could combine with VCR+ or programme list to prune down the bandwidth/capacity requirements by indicating disinterest and interest, topic preferences etc. Possibly a setup like this is getting closer to feasible with storage improvements. > But for the Web, the arms race between adbusters and ad providers...seems > likely to be lost for the ad makers. > > Once some mainstream adbusters appear. > > I wonder if advertisers will try to cite some right to enjoin ad > busters from busting their ads? (Far-fetched, perhaps. But imagine > if a particular version of this filtering occurrred...imagine the > howls if Microsoft Explorer automatically filtered out the ads of > companies it disliked or was competing against? Legal? Restraint of > trade?) A new feature for some enterprising cyberspace business to provide via eternity servers perhaps -- mirrors of subscriber services, and banner stripping. Free, but account based subscriber services are annoying, eg microsoft recently stuck about 5 mins worth of forms to fill in to get at support for some thing you've already paid for, forcing you to give them free user survey material. I fill it in as Billzebub billg at microsoft.com etc., plus random meaningless answers so that they get dud survery info, and so that his secretary gets to filter the crufty ads. Adam From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 9 16:41:36 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:41:36 +0800 Subject: Grounding (last slice of spam?) Message-ID: <364786A4.3CC1@lsil.com> Mixmaster-san, Sorry for prolonging the agony - I was hoping, in vain, for an admission of guilt. > > The fundamental misconception that started this whole sad comedy > of Doltish errors was Jim Dolt's belief that a Faraday cage has > to be grounded in order to suppress electromagnetic radiation. > Diagnosis: Lion taming is contraindicated, a career of public service is recommended. And this... > Now the electrons repel each other and therefor move in a > circular motion with the spark gap as the center. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ takes me on a trip with Mr. Peabody and Sherman to the place where the Huskies go... Was my question about cycling the keys for a block cipher a *useless* one or did the bit about horses offend? Horses are OK, sort of. In their own way. On someone else's nickel. Mike Snowcone, anyone? From blancw at cnw.com Mon Nov 9 16:42:05 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:42:05 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <000b01be0c0f$19720c60$9d2580d0@ibm> Message-ID: <000301be0c3f$74141a20$618195cf@blanc> You know, guys, it doesn't matter what sort of tax system is set up, if it doesn't begin with one very fundamentally, essential, crucial, important point: respect for the sovereignty of the individual. This means respect for their individual agreement, their informed consent, to any arrangement to be taken up by them. If, at any point in time - either before, during, or after a plan for obtaining moneys from citizen-units is instigated - it loses sight of the purpose for setting up the whole thing, then it's worthless anyway. If it doesn't support the highest ideal of humanity - unit by unit, individual by individual, human beings qua their separate existence - then it is not serving their purposes, but only the purpose of those who identify themselves as the State: employees of the State, leaders of the State, keepers of the State, goalies of the State, wards of the State, etc. If "members" are not extended the courtesy due to strangers, where one would normally inquire - "would you like to join us?" or "would you like to combine efforts with us in this endeavor to do ourselves a good" or "would you agree to support this organization in this manner?"; if instead their existence is taken for granted and their efforts treated as minor elements in the larger scheme of more important things, if their separate opinions are rolled up into a combined average, then what does it matter the benefits? What does it matter, the details? If there is no basic comprehension of respect, no display of respect, no provision in their Codes (legal codes, tax codes, etc.) for the methods of respectfulness - then where is the goodness in the rest of it, once you've lost your place in your hierarchy of values? People will then be operating in an mindless atmosphere of unconsciousness, an atmosphere lacking an appreciation for oneself as a unique creature, self-possessed and having their own reasons and purpose for living. Gradually they will lose the consciousness of themselves as being something other than a "member" of a collective, an identity not dependent upon recognition from the State, upon sanction from The Crowd for permission to move based on the independent exercise of judgement- be it to move about freely, or consume the chemicals of the Universe, or think unofficial thoughts, whatever. They could become like the "bird in a guilded cage" - having all the benefits of personal comfort, but without the ability or permission to pursue goals beyond what is tolerated within the boundaries of the Group Consciousness (can you say B-o-r-g), so that they may have more and more of the basic physical requirements, but less and less of themselves - of their own authority, of their own self-esteem, an esteem not pre-measured or pre-determined by the PC police, that constant reference in the back of their mind reminding them of the limits of their approved parameters. Nothing - no plan, no organization, no purpose, no method, no clever, cheaper, faster, more practical scheme - is worth supporting, if it degrades the concept, the idea, the reality, of respect for the boundaries of our separate existence. If it denies the recognition of self-ownership, if it ignores it, if it fails to account for it in word or deal with it in action, then eventually it will transgress these boundaries with impunity and an air of overbearing self-righteousness, and you will lose what is most important of all. You could "gain the world" (of tax-extorted benefits), but lose your Self. (of course some people don't propose to have one, and so wouldn't miss it or complain over its absence) .. Blanc From blancw at cnw.com Mon Nov 9 17:17:36 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:17:36 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811092210.OAA15146@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <000401be0c44$50a73f40$618195cf@blanc> >From Vlad Ze Prophet: :sheeple are like, "that's : not my job". cpunks are like, "it is a waste of time and energy : to do that job". what's the difference in the end?? : : the govt can be turned around very, very quickly if the public : stops sucking down sixpacks and being hypnotized by meaningless : dribble of sporting events and sitcoms that parade endlessly : across their nanosecond attention span. [. . .] ........................................................ Sheeple are like, "that's not my job". and cpunks are like, "YOU're not my job". And to the govmt-as-is cpunks are like, "get off my space and out of my face". And if I, non-exemplary Citizen of the Galaxy, choose to sit around guzzling down sixpacks, listening to the dribble of sporting events and sitcoms (can you see it!), and you personally don't like it, I would say " I'M like, so not your job". I would like to know what exactly you've done for me lately, Vladimeer, for to turn the government around. .. Blanc - like, sitting around hypnotized, urp, waiting for visionary inspiration. From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 9 17:48:13 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:48:13 +0800 Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone)(fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811100027.AAA07402@server.eternity.org> Christopher Petro writes: > In other words Jim, Fuck You. I, and I'd bet most people here, > including Mr. May, are perfectly willing, and hell even eager to pay their > share, to assume their social responcibility, they just get very, very > angry at having to pay OTHER peoples social responcibility, and get very, > very angry at having to pay for other shit (Senate Luncheons and Swimming > Pools, the Militaries greatly inflated budget, all the waste that is todays > federal government). What is annoying is "charity" (social security) at the point of a gun. Our "conscience" is being decided by government which is acting as a broker for those lobby for their "need" and for your assets to be stolen and redistributed to them. What people aren't willing to pay for shouldn't happen. Period. If that means people starve well those complaining loudest had better dig deeper into their pockets. Anything else is socialism tending to facism, as Hayek argues in The Road to Serfdom. > >No state can govern those who don't wish to be governed, violence or no. > > Yes, but a state can kill those who don't wish to be governed. Can > and does routinely. That's what's so interesting about cyberspace, once the payment systems get there -- government thugs can't beat up, murder, or incarcerate anonymous nyms. _Then_ Jim's "No state can govern those who don't wish to be governed" starts to become true. Adam From mgering at ecosystems.net Mon Nov 9 17:58:20 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:58:20 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B275@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > cpunks actually contribute to this problem with their nihilistic > philosophy in general. the msg is that it is a waste of time > to engage in group activity or political discourse or lobbying > against the govt or organization or *whatever*... it's actually > just a variant on the sheeple passivity. "If you think of yourselves as helpless and ineffectual, it is certain that you will create a despotic government to be your master. The wise despot, therefore, maintains among his subjects a popular sense that they are helpless and ineffectual." --Frank Herbert, The Dosadi Experiment I don't think many cpunks (and other freedom loving people) are necessarily nihilistic so much as they have come to the conclusion that to ignore and/or subvert government has higher probability of success than trying to reform it -- much to the demise of the Libertarian Party. The whole cryptography and geodesic communications being the bane of the nation-state theme tends to support this idea. Matt From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 9 18:14:54 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:14:54 +0800 Subject: IP: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation Message-ID: <3647983F.6EBE@lsil.com> OOH: Oh, I suppose so. Part of the Yet Another Conspiracy Conspiracy Theory. OTOH: 1) The people who run NSA are powerful people in their own right. I would be surprised if they could be easily made into a simple political tool 2) If there is ONE country in the world that the US would like to set up for another "Crypto-AG", another "Softwar"( ok early computer spy story I read long ago ), which country might that be? And why might NSA not want media attention? Could it be that someone spoke before thinking? Ready, fire, aim. That's why I don't go into the woods during deer season. It would be damn nifty to be able to snoop ( and override ) the target country's police and military communications networks and air traffic systems wouldn't it? Now they're wise before we've got'em mainlining our trash. Mike Newt Gingrich - There are some good people in the Republican party. Newt is not one of them. Good riddance to bad rubbish. ******** The seemingly crazy Clinton policy shows our President to be crazy like a fox. Clinton did what Pollard and Walker could not do. President Clinton sold national security secrets for cash by writing his own legal waivers. Clinton's secret crypto policy served to line the pockets of politicians and greedy corporate executives with red money. The Clinton export policy has significantly upgraded the nuclear strategic and tactical firepower of the Chinese Army. Clinton, like Walker and Pollard, sold military code secrets for cash. America knows more about AREA-51 and UFOs than Ft. Meade and Webster Hubbell. Bill Clinton and his China crypto-tale will never be declassified for the American people. The Clinton scandal cover-up is backed by the NSA library of greatest intercepts against Republicans. ********* From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 9 18:19:25 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:19:25 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force In-Reply-To: <199811092311.XAA06732@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <199811100157.RAA05844@netcom13.netcom.com> the distinction between govt and business is sometimes an arbitrary one. for example govt agencies typically contract with private companies to perform govt services. a massive example of this is the defense industry. what I would tend to propose is a system where this is augmented and finetuned to the point the govt become a very efficient sorting mechanism for channeling money to businesses that are the most efficient. a very interesting combination of the ideas of free market and govt service. AB, I disagree that people would opt out of virtually all govt services. bzzzzzzzt. think of things like trash collection etc. I do believe the vast majority of things the govt does would tend to stay there even if people had a choice. the big libertarian question is, as you raise it: should people have to pay for things they don't want. well consider things like roads, police or fire protection, or the court system. what if you don't pay, but then dial 911 anyway? or you dial 911 and they ask for your credit card first? it really does seem to me like there is a legitimate role for a certain amount of money to be collected for govt service. imho it is far, far less than whatis being collected today. if taxes were 5-10% people wouldn't give as much a damn about the govt and how it worked. it's because taxes are so high that people are screeching more. screeching but not acting, as usual. libertarians tend to be awfully realistic some times. who pays for roads when everyone uses them? but I'm definitely into the basic libertarian ideas. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 18:24:31 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:24:31 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100205.UAA14919@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:27:14 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > No, it's that facists & socialists like yourself think we should be > happy letting you decide what our social responsibilities are. Actualy, no. I'm perfectly happy to let you run around paying no taxes on your income. The part you're not going to like is that I'm also not going to let you reap one iota of benefit from those systems that are built and developed by those of us who do pay taxes without a cost. And the cost will be more than what the necessary taxes would have been. Hell, a free-market capitalist shouldn't begrudge a tidy profit anyone under any situation. > I am perfectly willing to pay for a police force. A police force > that arrests ALLEGED rapists, treats them like human beings until found > guilty and then deals with them as the law indicates. I am NOT willing to > pay for a police force that spends most of it's time (well, aside from > eating doughnuts, drinking coffee and collecting bribes) chasing after > teenagers with illegal chemicals. I am not willing to pay for a police > force that extorts money from these same teenagers. I am not willing to pay > money for a police force that thinks it needs to arrest people for > "loitering", "Mob Action", when it's defined as more than 4 people standing > together in a public place, and ESPECIALLY when EVERY TIME THEY ARREST > SOMEONE, IT'S THROWN OUT OF COURT. Neither am I, unfortunately paying taxes or not won't resolve those sorts of issues. What is required is public over-watch groups (as was recently implimented in Austin, pisses the cops off big time) and a change in the way we run our prisons. As to the way people are currently treated prior to being found guilty at a trial is an abuse of power on the part of those parties involved and clearly cruel and unusual punishment for an innocent man. Of course the *REAL* problem isn't the police. It's the people who make the laws that the police are sworn to uphold and the judges with a social agenda (that is not relevant to their job however much they may squeel like pigs). That process *is* most certainly an ideal place to inject consideration and respect for civil liberties and the purvue of government institutions. > I am willing to pay for the streets I use. I am not willing to pay > the same fees to ride my bicycle (my current primary form of > transportation) as you do to drive your 2 ton SUV. And you probably don't now (Does a Bronco II weigh 2 tons?). In actuality you don't pay the gas taxes, the vehicle registration, license fees, inspection, requisite insurance, etc. for your bicycle. I bet you don't even have to license your bike to ride it on the city streets. > I am willing to pay for fire protection. I am not willing to pay > for "universal health care", "welfare", and other such nonsense. The Constitution happens to mention that the federal government is detailed with taking care of the general welfare. If you don't like that sort of stuff then get a Constitutional amendment passed. > In other words Jim, Fuck You. I, and I'd bet most people here, > including Mr. May, are perfectly willing, and hell even eager to pay their > share, to assume their social responcibility, they just get very, very > angry at having to pay OTHER peoples social responcibility, and get very, Unfortunately, that is what social responsibility is - giving with in personal gain. That ultimately is what drives the bee up your butt. > very angry at having to pay for other shit (Senate Luncheons and Swimming > Pools, the Militaries greatly inflated budget, all the waste that is todays > federal government). Agreed. Throwing the Constitution away won't fix that and going to a free-market monopolistic no-social-responsibility-at-all system such as anarcho-capitalism is sure won't do it. > Yes, but a state can kill those who don't wish to be governed. Can > and does routinely. Oh what hyperbole. You make it sound like the Nazi's have invaded. They haven't. Yes, there are misguided people out there. Yes, there are just plain old corrupt people out there. That won't change irrespective of the political system (or lack of one). They don't just go out and pick people off the street and shoot them you're over-reacting and succumbing to a paranoid delusion of persecution. Unless you kill somebody or move a few tons of coke your individual chances of being killed by the state is less than being struck by lightening. > But did you bother to read them this time? Actualy I read it twice before I even decide if I'm going to reply. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 18:26:22 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:26:22 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100210.UAA15017@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:25:45 -0800 > I don't think many cpunks (and other freedom loving people) are necessarily > nihilistic so much as they have come to the conclusion that to ignore and/or > subvert government has higher probability of success than trying to reform > it -- much to the demise of the Libertarian Party. There is certainly little historical evidence to support such a thesis. > The whole cryptography > and geodesic communications being the bane of the nation-state theme tends > to support this idea. Cryptography is the bane of anyone who wants to listen in, it's not just nation-states that get hit with it. As to geodesic communications, it's been around a lot longer than the Internet and nation states are still here. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hrook at exchange.microsoft.com Mon Nov 9 18:29:32 1998 From: hrook at exchange.microsoft.com (Harvey Rook (Exchange)) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:29:32 +0800 Subject: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation Message-ID: <2FBF98FC7852CF11912A0000000000010D19AD5F@DINO> An advanced, nuclear hardened encryption device, is an encryption device that will still work after a nuke has gone off in the vicinity. Nuclear bombs emit EMP's which destroy sensitive electronics. Harv. > -----Original Message----- > Uh, what in the hell is "advanced, nuclear hardened, > encryption technology" > ? > > Matt > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 18:39:41 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:39:41 +0800 Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100216.UAA15081@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:27:50 GMT > From: Adam Back > Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone) > (fwd) > What people aren't willing to pay for shouldn't happen. Period. If > that means people starve well those complaining loudest had better > dig deeper into their pockets. This attitude is exactly why such system as anarchy won't ever work. > _Then_ Jim's "No state can govern those > who don't wish to be governed" starts to become true. It's true as much now as it was at the height of the American or French Revolution. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 18:39:43 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:39:43 +0800 Subject: Grounding (last slice of spam?) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100220.UAA15144@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 16:19:48 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka > Subject: Re: Grounding (last slice of spam?) > Sorry for prolonging the agony - I was hoping, in vain, for an admission > of guilt. Ok, your guilty. > > Now the electrons repel each other and therefor move in a > > circular motion with the spark gap as the center. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > takes me on a trip with Mr. Peabody and Sherman to the place where the > Huskies go... Perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that a cloud of like-charged particles expand in a cloud of equi-radius (which when looked at in side view is circular). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at lo14.wroc.pl Mon Nov 9 18:42:01 1998 From: nobody at lo14.wroc.pl (Anonymous lo14) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:42:01 +0800 Subject: govt server architecture Message-ID: <6c32470712900957c71c30cf0bd3cfe1@anonymous> Greetings and salutations, Can anyone share experience with U.S. government server hardware, used for medium-load computing applications (not supercomputers)? I'm looking for information on brand names, flops, etc. and where to find more. From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 9 18:44:40 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:44:40 +0800 Subject: Advanced Nuclear-Hardened Encryption Technology Message-ID: <3647A470.17C7@lsil.com> > Uh, what in the hell is "advanced, nuclear hardened, encryption > technology"? advanced(1) - we fucked up so we have to classify it so nobody but us boobs will know what boobs we are advanced(2) - last year's obsolete model in a new suit to fit this year's corruption conspiracy advanced(3) - we wish we had this but we're going to hint that we do anyway to keep'em guessing nuclear-hardened(1) - bikini glass ( not applicable ) nuclear-hardened(2) - a pencil encryption technology - a copy of Gideon's and some stationary from the Beijing Hilton From blancw at cnw.com Mon Nov 9 18:50:08 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:50:08 +0800 Subject: Advertising Creepiness In-Reply-To: <199811090532.VAA01509@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <000501be0c53$05cd1da0$618195cf@blanc> My comments on this: Consider what advertising does: it notifies potential users/consumers about products and services which might be of use or pleasure to them. Consider who a potential audience/market is: people who might be interested in availing themselves of these products/services if they but knew of their existence. Advertising which is in keeping with the theme of the medium's message is not quite so obnoxious: for instance, when looking over a magazine like Cigar Afficionado, which is about smoking and enjoying "the good life", I see ads for cigar accessories and after-dinner liquors and places where a person can order a glass of Corvoisier (sp) and light up in good company. The ads are a logical extension of what one expects to find in those pages, they allow the reader to see where they might find and purchase the goods they are reading about and indulge in their pleasure, and so are not a nuisance - in particular as their presentation is aesthetically pleasing and in good taste. I don't expect to find there advertisements from Nature's Pantry Health Foods or an Orthopedic Hospital. I can't think right now just what advertising would be so pertinent to a news magazine in cyberspace, but I imagine the same principle applies and would make ads less a mere distraction, less jarring to the attention. Marketers aren't logical, though, are they. : : ) .. Blanc From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 18:53:59 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:53:59 +0800 Subject: Forwarded mail... Message-ID: <199811100232.UAA15314@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: 9 Nov 1998 20:40:03 -0000 > From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer > Subject: Re: Grounding (fwd) > Listen to this. Jim Dolt thinks that a spark gap inside a conductive sphere > will cause charge to build up on the surface of the sphere! The dunderhead > has forgotten about conservation of charge! No, I didn't. First off your assumption that the charge in the battery is neutral is faulty. No such point was ever made. I also mentioned this fact when I brought up the Van DeGraff. > Gauss' law says that the charge on the outer surface of a closed > conductive sphere will be equal to the net charge inside the sphere. Actualy, no it doesn't. What Gauss' Law does state is that if there is a neutral ball and there is a point charge within it there will be a contrary but equal charge imposed on the inside surface of the globe. As a result of charge conservation there must be a equal and opposite (hence negative) charge that is equal to the point charge inside the globe on the outside of the globe. > The spark gap can't change the net charge inside the sphere, it can just > move charge around. Jim Dolt has conveniently forgotten about the net > positive charge which will build up on the spark gap as it (supposedly) > emits electrons. And the anonymous person has forgotten that we never defined the mechanism of how the battery worked. It might very well have started out with a net-negative charge. I didn't invent the model, just simply worked within it. I also, on two seperate occassions, mentioned that I was not going to deal with the net charge that gets deposited on the globe because of the complexity it adds to the model. > His Doltish notion that electrons will hit the inside of the sphere > and "tunnel through" to the outside is totally confused. Suppose this > happened. We've removed negative charges from the interior of the sphere > and put them on the outside, where they would give the sphere a negative > charge. Now, what is the net charge on the interior of the sphere? > We started neutral and removed negatives, hence it's positive! Gauss' > law would imply that the sphere must have a positive charge. No, Gauss Law says at all times the charge on the sphere must stay equal for point charges. Since the spark gap is by defintion emitting electrons it doesn't qualify as a point charge. I brought this up as well in reference to the Van DeGraff. Gauss's Law does say that any excess charge on the inside of the globe will propogate to the outside of the globe. Now each of those free electrons IS a point charge. You follow Gauss's Law through the same process and what do you get....a charge equal to the electron on the outside of the surface. > The whole idea is ludicrous. No charge can spontaneously appear on > the outside of an ideal closed conductive sphere. This would be a > violation of the law of conservation of charge. No, it wouldn't. The charge inside the sphere is exactly canceled by the charge induced on the inside of the sphere (+ + - = 0) by Gauss's Law. Now since the sphere is neutral, and we've induced that positive charge there must be a balancing negative charge. That charge rests on the other (outside) surface of the sphere. All that's taken place is that the universe has created a situation where you can't steal charge and hide it where it can't be found. That WOULD violate conservation of charge. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 19:10:20 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:10:20 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100254.UAA15502@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Blanc" > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:16:15 -0800 > You know, guys, it doesn't matter what sort of tax system is set up, if it > doesn't begin with one very fundamentally, essential, crucial, important point: > respect for the sovereignty of the individual. This means respect for their > individual agreement, their informed consent, to any arrangement to be taken up > by them. > > If, at any point in time - either before, during, or after a plan for obtaining > moneys from citizen-units is instigated - it loses sight of the purpose for > setting up the whole thing, then it's worthless anyway. If it doesn't support > the highest ideal of humanity - unit by unit, individual by individual, human > beings qua their separate existence - then it is not serving their purposes, > but only the purpose of those who identify themselves as the State: employees of > the State, leaders of the State, keepers of the State, goalies of the State, > wards of the State, etc. Jesus, it's a miracle. Blanc and I actualy agree....I think I'm gonna faint. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 19:13:33 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:13:33 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100252.UAA15446@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:23:20 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Usualy !=3D Correctly. > > Take tomatoes. Perfectly legal (AFAIK) everywhere, here in this > country a 5 year old child can buy a tomato from a farmer with a stand on > the side of the road. > > If you go back 10 years, and if "this country" was the soviet > union, a tomato purchased from the wrong person could get you in trouble. So what are saying...that because any government ever happened to abuse its citizens in a particular way is justification to do away with all government? This is a strawman. > This is true in this coutry. Licquor is legal if purchased thru the > approved store. > > Try selling the same thing out of the back of your truck. > > It is the product, or how the product is sold. Well actualy it's whether it has a tax stamp whether you sell it out of a storefront or a truckbed is irrelevent. Considering the number of people who died in the late 1800's and early 1900's because of moonshine liquor from contaminated stills that were unregulated (where were those fine upstanding ethical considerate eco-anarchists then?) it's probably a good thing that it's illegal to sell untaxed and therefore anonymous alcohol. > So take ampthetimines (well, don't take them, but take the case of > them), if I get them from Joe Random Drug Dealer, it's black Market, if I > get them from Paul the Doctor, it's "white" market. Not necessarily. The doctor has to have a medicaly supportable reason to dispence those drugs. Otherwise it's just as black market as Joe's. > In fact, if I get them from Paul the Doctor, and then sell them to > someone else, I am selling them on the black market, even if I recieved > them legally, so in this case, it isn't how the item was aquired, it's > whether the _sale_, the *exchange* is legal. So, we've already established this as a viable mechanism. Rehash old hash. > I didn't think of theft when I wrote the above, and I don't usually Didn't think of theft? Jesus H. Christ, you gotta be on Joe's drugs. The vast majority of material sold on *ANY* black market is stolen from its rightful owner. It is *the* example of black market trading that most folks think of first. > I still maintain that as one moves closer to a completely free > market, there is less and less of a black market, and to be the extrememe > case of a free market, there would be the potential to trade in both human > lives, and in stolen property. Well, at least you're an honest eco-anarchist. And how do you propose to stop this sort of behaviour (it's clear that there is a market whether the economy is free-market or not) without some sort of 3rd party arbiter (call it government or not is irrelevant to the point)? > In a free market, the selling of stolen > goods might not be a crime in and of itself, but the posession of those > things could be, How the hell do you sell something on the black market if you don't have possession of it? And exactly who is going to prosecute anyone for possession? Since we've done away with laws governing economics and trade there isn't even a court to try the perps in if we did apprehend them ourselves. and the aquireing would be, as well, the _hiring_ of an > assassin might be legal, as long as no killing took place. When it does, > you hang the assassin on murder, and the hirer on conspiracy, aiding and > abetting or whatever, and stick them in the same cell. Huh? Who is doing all this arresting and writing of laws, and building jails, and staffing prisons, or hiring hangmen? We're not in Kansas anymore toto.... ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 19:36:05 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:36:05 +0800 Subject: How to make non-neutral charge batteries... Message-ID: <199811100313.VAA15569@einstein.ssz.com> One way a person could generate a battery suitable for the spark gap experiment to address the conservation of charge issues related to the battery is to build a mechanism such as: 2N e- 1N p+ | | | | |-------------| |--------------| | | | | | | | | | | | | |------0 0------------------0 0--| \ \ spark gap switch The two vertical plates above are not a capacitor. They simply represent some mechanism to hold charge, Leyden Jars for example. Now when the switch is closed 1 N of e- will combine with 1 N of p+ to form a neutralization of charge. That will leave a net 1N of e- that will represent a point charge of that value. That charge will be exposed at the right contact of the spark gap above. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 9 19:44:21 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:44:21 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100205.UAA14919@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 9:05 PM -0500 11/9/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:27:14 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone >> (fwd) > >> No, it's that facists & socialists like yourself think we should be >> happy letting you decide what our social responsibilities are. > >Actualy, no. I'm perfectly happy to let you run around paying no taxes on >your income. The part you're not going to like is that I'm also not going to >let you reap one iota of benefit from those systems that are built and Like I said (it's that reading and comprehension thing, kinda like my spelling thing), I don't mind paying fair costs, I do mind paying extortion at the point of a gun. >developed by those of us who do pay taxes without a cost. And the cost will >be more than what the necessary taxes would have been. Hell, a free-market Prove it. Prove that in a competitive market certain goods and services will be MORE expensive than in a Government-as-Supplier. How many Corporations you know buy $300 hammers, or $1000 toilet seats? >capitalist shouldn't begrudge a tidy profit anyone under any situation. I don't begrudge a profit where it's due. Bill Clinton isn't due. Neither is Newt Gingrinch, or any other Feeding at the government trough pig. >> I am perfectly willing to pay for a police force. A police force >> that arrests ALLEGED rapists, treats them like human beings until found >> guilty and then deals with them as the law indicates. I am NOT willing to >> pay for a police force that spends most of it's time (well, aside from >> eating doughnuts, drinking coffee and collecting bribes) chasing after >> teenagers with illegal chemicals. I am not willing to pay for a police >> force that extorts money from these same teenagers. I am not willing to pay >> money for a police force that thinks it needs to arrest people for >> "loitering", "Mob Action", when it's defined as more than 4 people standing >> together in a public place, and ESPECIALLY when EVERY TIME THEY ARREST >> SOMEONE, IT'S THROWN OUT OF COURT. > >Neither am I, unfortunately paying taxes or not won't resolve those sorts of >issues. What is required is public over-watch groups (as was recently >implimented in Austin, pisses the cops off big time) and a change in the way >we run our prisons. As to the way people are currently treated prior to >being found guilty at a trial is an abuse of power on the part of those >parties involved and clearly cruel and unusual punishment for an innocent >man. So, they don't get fired (usually) they don't get more than censured. >Of course the *REAL* problem isn't the police. It's the people who make the >laws that the police are sworn to uphold and the judges with a social agenda No, the problem is the police. To quote (IIRC) Lydia Lunch: "Neo Nazis with night stick dicks, no brains but banging into yours in the middle of the night looking for whatever don't fit in with their ideologically unsound version of reality". Also known as "You wanna act like a fuck'n gang banger, I'm gonna treat you like a fuck'n gang banger" to two teenage black males who (like every other black male in the neighborhood) had learned to walk around the corner when the cops drove by. The cops in the larger cities are so fucken dirty that a "citizens oversight commision" will either be a politically packed joke, or wind up changing members every couple months from attrition. >That process *is* most certainly an ideal place to inject consideration and >respect for civil liberties and the purvue of government institutions. Oh, and that has been working OH SO WELL thus far. > >> I am willing to pay for the streets I use. I am not willing to pay >> the same fees to ride my bicycle (my current primary form of >> transportation) as you do to drive your 2 ton SUV. > >And you probably don't now (Does a Bronco II weigh 2 tons?). In actuality >you don't pay the gas taxes, the vehicle registration, license fees, >inspection, requisite insurance, etc. for your bicycle. I bet you don't even >have to license your bike to ride it on the city streets. No I don't. but check the numbers, there is a $6000 LESS collected in road taxes (average) PER CAR for each car in america. That $6k comes out of my pockets as well, and as a bicyclist I my share is MUCH less than that of a Bronco. Not to mention that I don't pollute anywhere near as much, if at all. >> I am willing to pay for fire protection. I am not willing to pay >> for "universal health care", "welfare", and other such nonsense. > >The Constitution happens to mention that the federal government is detailed >with taking care of the general welfare. If you don't like that sort of stuff >then get a Constitutional amendment passed. If that is the interpretation, then the document is morally flawed. >> In other words Jim, Fuck You. I, and I'd bet most people here, >> including Mr. May, are perfectly willing, and hell even eager to pay their >> share, to assume their social responcibility, they just get very, very >> angry at having to pay OTHER peoples social responcibility, and get very, > >Unfortunately, that is what social responsibility is - giving with in >personal gain. That ultimately is what drives the bee up your butt. Yeah, having to support the lifestyle habits of others really DOES beef me. I pay *MORE* than my way, and I *WORK HARD FOR IT* (all jokes aside). Others do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MY LABOR. That is slavery, pure and simple. No constitutional gobblygook can change that. > >> very angry at having to pay for other shit (Senate Luncheons and Swimming >> Pools, the Militaries greatly inflated budget, all the waste that is todays >> federal government). >Agreed. Throwing the Constitution away won't fix that and going to a >free-market monopolistic no-social-responsibility-at-all system such as >anarcho-capitalism is sure won't do it. Sure it will. >> Yes, but a state can kill those who don't wish to be governed. Can >> and does routinely. > >Oh what hyperbole. You make it sound like the Nazi's have invaded. They >haven't. Yes, there are misguided people out there. Yes, there are just >plain old corrupt people out there. That won't change irrespective of the >political system (or lack of one). They don't just go out and pick people >off the street and shoot them you're over-reacting and succumbing to a >paranoid delusion of persecution. How many millions have died in the last 100 years IN wars started by and for the advantage of the state? How many died at the hands of Stalin, Hitler. and other dictators? The state, whether here in the US, or in other countries tends to treat the humans that comprise it with little concern for their health or livelyhood, and the ugly truth is that the same characteristics that are necessary to keep a government in line are the same ones that make a government unnecessary. If you have citizens that are honest, principled, and willing to assist those around them, you have no need for a "state". Without honesty and principles you have Slick Willy. >Unless you kill somebody or move a few tons of coke your individual chances >of being killed by the state is less than being struck by lightening. There are 1.7 million people struck by lightning every year? I am not going assume that our country is any better just because it's subjects are my neighbors. No, we don't kill as many, but name one country that has jailed more of it's subjects, and the truth is, we are getting worse. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 19:55:29 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:55:29 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100336.VAA15683@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "X" > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:31:00 -0700 > Sorry, everyone, for this crap coming up, but JIM CHOATE wants you all to > see it... > > Jim, > > You keep reposting this to the cpunx list, and I keep trying to discuss it > with you in private. I have zero desire to discuss this in private. If you don't want to discuss it here then we won't discuss it. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but the gist of your system was a two-tiered > payment schedule where Group A could be called TaxPayers and Group B could > be called NON-Payers. Right? > > And basically, Group A would get all of the benefits that a fully paid > membership would entail, right? Secondly, Group B would "not pay taxes" and > would NOT be entitled to any benefits save for on a pay-as-you-go type > arrangement. Right? > > What USGov't services do you include in your proposal? Each and every one of them, except the criminal courts. I would include the state and local government as well. Perhaps you could think of it as a discount card....;) > (feel free to jump in with some more.) You're doin' fine. > U.S. Mail services If you don't show them your tax receipt before Jan. 1 of each year they will remove your address from their delivery list until you do so. If you don't either pick it up there in person within 10 days, every 10 days it goes back. The Constitution says they have to deliver your mail. It doesn't say they have to drop it on your front step. Personaly I think this would be a great position for those folks who have learning disabilities but still need a job. The irritation factor alone would be worth it...;) > Common defense Already covered that one. > Air traffic controlling When you buy your ticket from a commercial carrier and don't present a tax receipt your ticket price goes WAY! up. > roadways and interstates Already covered them too. > Food and Drug Administration approvals When you buy food or drugs if you don't present your tax receipt then you pay the full price for foods and drugs. > Federally mandated minimum wage I also covered this one already. > automobile safety standards See the one above. > Is your tax progressive or regressive? Depends on what *you* mean by progressive or regressive. Personaly I would go for a flat tax rate but a scaled mechanism would be ok. It isn't the particular scaling mechanism that I dislike about our current tax system. > If I'm right so far (which I may or may not be) then we have to talk about > your definition of "paying taxes." Taking a percentage of your monetary income each period (say a year) and sending it to an address. That address is the suitable tax agent who then distributes the monies into the appropriate account according to law. The suitable civic agencies can then draw funds according to law. > Does a single woman raising five kids > and paying a small mortgage making $14,200 per year pay taxes? No, > unfortunately for her, she doesn't. I guess that puts her smack into GROUP > B! Well, that's simple enough! Not at all, simply because she is unfortunate enough not to have the income necessary to participate without causing harm to herself and her family (perhaps) is no reason to deny her those rights. I'd give her a receipt that would look just like anybody elses. Now if she didn't want to apply for it by sending in the paperwork that's her decision. From a government perspective she is participating fully in the process, it isn't the amount of money (as foreign as that may be to eco-anarchists and free-market mavens) that is the issue but the willingness to participate. Nobody is forcing her to do anything, it's all of her own volition. > We'll deny her the creature comforts of the > list above until she chips in her proportionate cost, right? When that > libertarian bitch tries to send mail, we'll charge her more! WHen she gets > on the freeway, we'll toll her! When she buys a medicine for her snot-nosed > urchin, we'll give her the stuff that ain't been FDA approved, right? > RIGHT! And, if ever we should need to attack another country (or defend > ours, as you pointed out) SHE'LL happily volunteer to serve (as I remember > your post) in order to protect her TAX-FREE STATUS. No, that isn't right. As to participating in the military, no I didn't give anyone a choice. I said *draft*, you didn't give up your citizenship when you gave up your tax participation. Now if you want to give that up to then we won't draft you but you'll be one broke puppy trying to pay all the bills as a non-tax-participant and a non-citizen. > As you said to me, she's probably just looking for someone to shoulder her > part of the load, right? I said to you? > You said it would be easy to implement, right? I don't see that it would be > easy at all. As hard as this may be to take, your ability to see it doesn't effect it's viability. > Once again, I apologize for the OFF TOPIC nature of this, but MR. COHATE > (freudian slip, or merely coincidence? you be the judge!) insisted on > duking this out in public. Um, actualy YOU responded to my post. I didn't start this with you. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From private at soon.com Tue Nov 10 12:13:02 1998 From: private at soon.com (private at soon.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:13:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: securities - PRIVATE PLACEMENT WSG TECH, INC. Message-ID: <199811101951.NAA17490@dns.rodpas.com.mx> Opportunities in manufacturing and marketing patented products. This announcement is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation of an offer to buy these securities. Sales will be made only by a final Offering Memorandum and only in states where these securities may be offered in compliance with the securities laws of such states. The final Offering Memorandum will NOT be available to residents of the states of Hawaii, Washington, or Wisconsin. PRIVATE PLACEMENT MEMORANDUM REGULATION - RULE 504 UNDER THE SECURITIES ACT OF 1933. 500,000 Shares of Common class non-voting stock. (Par Value $.001 Per Share) $2.00 Per Share with a 5,000 Share Minimum of WSG Tech, Inc. WSG Tech, Inc. (Company), a Nevada corporation was incorporated in Nevada in August 1998. The Company owns the manufacturing and distribution rights, or has the Options to the rights of several commercially viable patented products, and is negotiating for others. The firm also owns the option to purchase an established manufacturing firm with over twenty (20) years of continuous profitable performance. The completion of this purchase will give WSG Tech, Inc. complete control over the manufacturing, sales, distribution and fulfillment of its own products. It will also give the Company a core business of manufacturing for other clients as well as an experienced production and sales staff. The Company has recently concluded an Agreement with an International marketing firm, and is negotiating an agreement for the manufacture and distribution of its products in Europe and South America. The Company's corporate mailing address is P.O. Box 541732 Lake Worth, Florida 33454 USA The company is offering to the public an invitation to participate in the funding of the company. For a copy of the Offering Memorandum, you may contact the Company's investment consultant, e-mail us at privateplacement at bigfoot.com Be sure to put "Send Me A Copy" in the Subject Line and include your name and address. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 20:26:10 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:26:10 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100403.WAA15755@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:13:57 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Prove it. Prove that in a competitive market certain goods and > services will be MORE expensive than in a Government-as-Supplier. Ok. Let's use the example of fire stations and insurance companies that came up earlier. What do you suppose the impact on the bottem line will be by increasing the amount of non-income-producing-services that such a situation would require? Each insurance company would be responsible for many, many stations scattered all over the country. This means some sort of centralized mechanism to create policies and other procedures and their requisite costs. Now, consider what that means to the payment each policy holder is going to have to deal with. It's going to be large because it's going to have to take up for parts of the company that don't bring in policy income but still require service coverage. Now by distributing this system out and assigning it to governments and providing equitable service to all, no questions asked they're there we, we get a system that is reasonable in cost and provides good responce. And we don't have to pay the insurance company a bunch of money to do a job they don't want to do (otherwise they'd be in the fire fighting business and not the insurance business). > How many Corporations you know buy $300 hammers, or $1000 toilet > seats? Lot's of them throw good money after bad. All businesses do. It's human nature. I know of one company that got so carried away with spending for little dribbles and drips that they ended up having to stop hiring new employees that the company desperately needs. I used to work for one, Compu-Add, that led to its final demise. > >capitalist shouldn't begrudge a tidy profit anyone under any situation. > > I don't begrudge a profit where it's due. Bill Clinton isn't due. > Neither is Newt Gingrinch, or any other Feeding at the government trough > pig. Agreed. But the solution is term limits on Congress-critters and a re-vamping of some critical laws. > No, the problem is the police. To quote (IIRC) Lydia Lunch: > > "Neo Nazis with night stick dicks, no brains but banging into yours > in the middle of the night looking for whatever don't fit in with their > ideologically unsound version of reality". Well I happen to come from that sub-culture so I can speak from experience. The majority of times I or my friends were hassled we were asking for it. Knowing Lydia's reputation I'd suspect she'd agree. > The cops in the larger cities are so fucken dirty that a "citizens > oversight commision" will either be a politically packed joke, or wind up > changing members every couple months from attrition. If anything interesting happens here in Austin with the new over-sight group I'll send a pointer. > >That process *is* most certainly an ideal place to inject consideration and > >respect for civil liberties and the purvue of government institutions. > > Oh, and that has been working OH SO WELL thus far. No, and that's my point. > No I don't. but check the numbers, there is a $6000 LESS collected > in road taxes (average) PER CAR for each car in america. That $6k comes out > of my pockets as well, How the hell do you figure that one? It may come out of YOUR state taxes but it certainly doesn't come out of mine (I don't have state taxes). The funds for road and such is collected solely through gasoline and auto related sales taxes in Texas. Perhaps you should fix your state government... Now if you're talking about the federal taxes for roads, that has NOTHING to do with your or my driving vehicles on those roads. It has to do with a program implimented in the early 20th century to create a good road net in the US for military use. The taxes are justified in principle, if not in amount, through commen defense. > If that is the interpretation, then the document is morally flawed. Interpeted? We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. > How many millions have died in the last 100 years IN wars started > by and for the advantage of the state? Most of the wars of this century were started either by people acting in concert willingly (eg Nazi Germany) or pure accident (eg Prince Ferdinand has already lived through one assissination attempt, a reasonable man would have gone home). > How many died at the hands of Stalin, Hitler. and other dictators? A lot more than at the hand of honest people, which is my point as well. These were people, not governments. The citizens willingness to participate aided and abetted each and every one of them and weakens your use of them in your defence. > The state, whether here in the US, or in other countries tends to > treat the humans that comprise it with little concern for their health or > livelyhood, Yep, I see lots of that every day. In one hand you complain about welfare and then in the other claim that the state is uncaring. Can you please make up your mind? > If you have citizens that are honest, principled, and willing to > assist those around them, you have no need for a "state". Yeah, and if frogs has wings they wouldn't bump their butt when they jumped. If your process relies on this it's doomed from the get go. This ain't Vulcan. > Without honesty and principles you have Slick Willy. And Bubba next door as well as that face that stares out at you every morning. > There are 1.7 million people struck by lightning every year? There aren't 1.7M poeple killed in the US by the LEA's. That would be about 1-in-150. There are several hundred people killed by lightening each year in the US. The number of people killed in activity complicent with LEA's is probably not a great deal (at most an order of magnitude) over that. > it's subjects are my neighbors. No, we don't kill as many, but name one > country that has jailed more of it's subjects, and the truth is, we are > getting worse. Agreed, one of the reasons I support this mailing list and my local activities. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 20:43:21 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:43:21 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100426.WAA15835@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 14:10:11 -0800 > From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" > Jim: the govt is the way it is because the sheeple of this > country have let it get out of control for many decades. > the idea that "someone else handles that stuff" has infected > our consciousness. govt is something WE handle if we want > a good one. if you want something done right, do it yourself. I agree in principle. I also believe though that the people who are taking advantage of the peoples character (it's mentioned in the Declaration of Indipendance) do so in a pre-meditated way. The people may bear some blame but they're not doing it out of malice and malpheasance. > cpunks actually contribute to this problem with their nihilistic > philosophy in general. the msg is that it is a waste of time > to engage in group activity or political discourse or lobbying > against the govt or organization or *whatever*... it's actually > just a variant on the sheeple passivity. sheeple are like, "that's > not my job". cpunks are like, "it is a waste of time and energy > to do that job". what's the difference in the end?? It's like those punk kids dressed in leather, tatoos, and pierced body parts yammering about being different, yet they all look the same. > the govt can be turned around very, very quickly if the public > stops sucking down sixpacks and being hypnotized by meaningless > dribble of sporting events and sitcoms that parade endlessly > across their nanosecond attention span. maybe they might read > even more than a comic book or pornographic magazine some day. > the political class *intentionally* created this bread and > circus atmosphere and are hiding behind the scenes as we > speak. no dorothy do not look at the man behind the curtain. I agree. Though I don't believe it necessarily requires the majority to do it. If it does then we may be doomed before we even start. As long as the government recognizes in any shape, form, or fashion that majority rule is limited by individual rights there is a chance that a small group dedicated and forthright can overcome. > who seek it. "when the student is ready the teacher will appear" God, ain't that the truth. I'm drowning in the damn books trying to keep up with just a couple of my personal interests. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mgering at ecosystems.net Mon Nov 9 21:17:34 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:17:34 +0800 Subject: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B277@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Yes, I assumed as much. But it is electronic circuits that are EMP/nuclear hardened, not the "encryption technology." We have a populace that doesn't understand what cryptography is, such reckless statements don't help, especially putting nuclear and encryption in the same sentence. For as much as I hate Clinton, encryption is mathematics, period. National security fearmongering to spite Clinton does not help the encryption awareness/freedom campaign. Matt > -----Original Message----- > From: Harvey Rook (Exchange) [mailto:hrook at exchange.microsoft.com] > > An advanced, nuclear hardened encryption device, is an > encryption device that will still work after a nuke has > gone off in the vicinity. Nuclear bombs emit EMP's which > destroy sensitive electronics. > > Harv. > > > -----Original Message----- > > Uh, what in the hell is "advanced, nuclear hardened, > > encryption technology" From mgering at ecosystems.net Mon Nov 9 21:25:41 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:25:41 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B278@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> > > nihilistic so much as they have come to the conclusion that > > to ignore and/or subvert government has higher probability > > of success than trying to reform it -- much to the demise > > of the Libertarian Party. > > There is certainly little historical evidence to support such > a thesis. My thesis that this is a common sentiment? Who the @#%$ is talking about history, try looking around. No, I'm talking 1950's to present, and particularly 1990's and the internet-libertarian culture. I think this sentiment is historically unprecedented. The thesis that to ignore the nation-state will see it's demise? Well we really need a financial system that they don't control, which has been promised with financial cryptography but has yet to arrive. I don't think it's time to throw in the towel yet. Matt From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 21:52:16 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:52:16 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100532.XAA16043@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:10:33 -0800 > > > nihilistic so much as they have come to the conclusion that > > > to ignore and/or subvert government has higher probability > > > of success than trying to reform it -- much to the demise > > > of the Libertarian Party. > > > > There is certainly little historical evidence to support such > > a thesis. > > My thesis that this is a common sentiment? You can't both ignore and subvert. One is passive the other is active. Now if your thesis holds that this is a commen sentiment then you're in big trouble finding mass support (which is what your theory would require to be valid). I would say the vast majority of people don't share your views. > history, try looking around. No, I'm talking 1950's to present, and > particularly 1990's and the internet-libertarian culture. I think this > sentiment is historically unprecedented. The technology is certainly unprecedented, I doubt there has been a single new human emotion or perspective developed because of it; only new venues for the same old human failings and foibles. Or by sentiment do you mean your view of nihilism? If so I would suggest you study nihilism closer. > The thesis that to ignore the nation-state will see it's demise? Historicaly strategies reducable to a ostrich_with_its_head_in_the_sand have not worked well in changing peoples minds nor motivating them to action, let alone causing the demise of a nation state. This isn't surprising if you consider the types of personalities that lead people. > Well we > really need a financial system that they don't control, which has been > promised with financial cryptography but has yet to arrive. I don't think > it's time to throw in the towel yet. I'll disagree regarding free-market economies. As to throwing in the towel, we agree there. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From blancw at cnw.com Mon Nov 9 22:09:29 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:09:29 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100254.UAA15502@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <000901be0c6d$50fd51e0$618195cf@blanc> >From Jim inChoate: : Jesus, it's a miracle. Blanc and I actualy agree....I think : I'm gonna faint. ................................................... Eureka, success. Keep it in mind. Everything I ever said that you disagreed with relates to that post. .. Blanc From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 9 22:09:29 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:09:29 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811100539.XAA16120@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:38:21 GMT > From: Adam Back > Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) > Who cares if it's legal or not. Lot's of people. > I think the conclusion of crypto-anarchy is that copyright seems > unlikely to survive as a schelling point for making money from > publications. Then crypto-anarchy is in for a big surprise. > You can make money from information provision by charging extra for > up-to-date news, or by charging so little that the cost from the > original provider is so low that it's not worth anyones time to > redistribute it, That's true now, why don't we see these effects... > or by providing higher bandwidth connection to the > net than the mirrors, Then why have the mirrors? There is also the issue of end-user bandwidth limitations and network delays that make this less than decisive. or by making do with click throughs from the > percentage of people who use the original rather than the cheaper > mirror. So, raise your rates to license the mirror. > To say it's "not legal to republish" is saying what? that you think It's saying it's not right for a 3rd party to derive profit or income from that work without a percentage being channeled back to the original author (at least for a limited time). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mah248 at nyu.edu Mon Nov 9 22:30:52 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:30:52 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3647DBE6.7B94DBEB@nyu.edu> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 7:22 PM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the > Foregone (fwd) > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 21:59:18 -0500 > > From: Michael Hohensee > > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > > > Ah, but governments are just bunches of people. The problem with > > government (which is just an organization) is that problematic people > > use them to cause problems for others. That's why I'm against *having* > > such organizations. That's why I'm an anarcho-capitalist. > > I'm still waiting for one of you guys to explain in detail how it works on a > day to day basis... It works much the same as it does today, except that there isn't a parasitic state wasting resources on feeding a useless band of politicians, or pointing guns at people who don't obey its whims. > > It's about the same thing. Of course, for it to do this, it must wield > > sufficient power to exact that retribution, which, as I've been saying > > over and over (as you've noticed) is the problem. > > Well I'll tell you this. You don't have a hope in hell of getting > anarcho-anything to work. People are not going to bust their butts simply to > see it get yanked away by a bunch of unregulated monoploies. Oh yeah, like they'd be much more willing to bust their butts simply to see 50%+ of it yanked away by "regulated" (by someone else) monopolies. You can't have malignant monopolies in an anarchy. If any monopoly behaved in such a manner, it would be opening itself up wide for competition. The only way malignant monopolies can survive is by the use of political power (i.e. force) to keep down competitors or to force patronage. And exactly how is your paragraph related to the one you quote above it? > > But they can only enforce laws after they have been broken. (assuming > > No, they can refuse to pass laws that don't infringe the basic principles of > the society. They can pass laws that take a conservative (not in the > political sense but in the wary manner) approach. It takes a system that has > sufficient check's and balances that no one group or even groups acting in > concert can take over the sytem to their good above others. It further can > operate on certain principles that govern the manner which the sytem > interacts with individuals. Ok, I'm going to tell this to you one more time, in simple words of no more than three sylables. I'll even put it in caps, so you can see it easier: LAWS DON'T GOVERN, PEOPLE DO. I keep pointing this out to you, and it keeps sliding in one eyeball and out the other. What's written on paper is *meaningless* if those in power choose to abuse their positions. > None of these can anarcho-anything touch upon. It assumes a priori that all > of these social mechanisms are pointless and serve no purpose. That people > will behave in a rational manner and that everyone is looking for equitable > and peaceful solutions to their problems. Anarcho-capitalists are very aware of social mechanisms. In fact, you may have noticed that they are what we rely upon. What you've been talking about, however, are *political* mechanisms. There's a difference. > > that it's a "nice" state --some states'll kill you *before* you break > > their laws). They do not protect people, they simply punish people they > > catch doing certain things. > > So, nobody is saying there aren't governments that are worse than the US. > What's your point (or is it just hyperbole)? It's what you missed in the above paragraphs. No government can prevent something bad (i.e. the violation of individual rights) from happening. No government can keep you safe. All any government can do is initiate force after the fact, and this is *not* protection. > > I agree, but I make no distinction between the government and the people > > running it. > > Ah, that is a fatal mistake for any political system or one who studies > them. And why would that be? I don't see any of them words written on them sheets of paper getting up and standing guard around *my* house. I just see the actions of the people who are allegedly enforcing them. Their behavior is not always correlated to what's written on their sheets of paper. > > The Constitution is a list of rules under which the > > government is supposed to operate, and if it is violated, the government > > no longer has any right to govern, and should by rights be shut down by > > the governed. > > No, those who break the law should be punished. Don't confuse the issue by > saying simply because one man is bad and caused the system to fail that > either all men or bad (which applies to you) I don't say that all men are bad. I simply say that not all men are good. Furthermore, I say that no man is good enough to rule another. This applies to you, me, and everyone else. > or all systems are broke (which > also includes yours). You're *almost* there. It means that all systems of state-governance are broke. I propose the abolition of the state -the lack of such a broken system. > A society is a group of people who act in concert under some sort of > mechanims, the result is a nation or government. Wow, that's very nationalistic of you. Nationalism wasn't always the way people viewed the world, you know, and society existed then. You keep saying that the state and society are somehow synonymous. This is simply not true --unless you're saying that if it were not for the existance of an organization which tells other people what to do, all human interaction would be impossible. > Governments have no rights, > they're not people; another serious problem with your view. Governments have > duties, responsibilities, and obligations. It's a job. Heh, if you've been listening, you'd have noticed that I never said that governments *have* rights -only that they assert that they have them. There are no group rights, only individual rights. Do you agree? If so, then how do you resolve the contradiction which develops when you notice that members of the state apparently have the right to do things that non-members cannot? Specifically, the "right" to initiate force, and the "right" to rule others? (both of which are of course non-rights, in my view) > > The central problem is that if the government was weak enough that it > > *could* be shut down immediately upon its first violation of its > > charter, it would be so weak that it could not offer a plausible > > guarantee of retribution for Constitutionally approved crimes. > > You punish people not governments. You change the laws governments act under > when the laws are found to be bad. If the act is offensive enough you forbid > the government from even considering the issue (as in the 1st Amendment). *Who* punishes the punishers? You fool, who do you think is going to tell the highest enforcer (who supposedly wields sufficient power to enforce anything) what to do? > > Yup, but you cannot assume that the arbiters of the rules will always > > have respect for the rules. > > It depends on how you write the rules and the sorts of systems you create > for review of such situations. *sigh* I'll say it *again*. If the rules are going to be ignored, it doesn't _MATTER_ how they're written. > > Rules have no power on their own --only > > that power given to them by people who agree with them. It is therefore > > foolish to concentrate power to enforce rules over other people --you > > cannot reasonably expect that the arbiters of said rules will not be > > corrupt. > > So, who said anything about people not being corrupt? Well, except you > anarcho-whatever folks. Who keep trying to convince folks that crime and > such will magicly disapear in your system of government. No one ever said that. I'm sure crime will still exist. Robbery, murder, etc. People go insane sometimes, some are anti-social, etc. What we *won't* have, however, are such state-sponsored crimes like taxation, "regulatory" taxes designed to keep competition away from state sponsored monopolies, and, of course, that highest of all crimes, the initiation of force on a worldwide scale. > > This is the standard line handed to anyone who argues for the abolition > > of government. As such, it's pretty easy to tear apart. :) > > > > First: You tell me that without government, I'll end up watching my > > No, what I'd say is that without taxes funding civil services you're going > to watch your house burn to the slab. Why? Why wouldn't the services which people obviously need and want suddenly vanish if the state didn't exist? People are obviously going to be willing to pay for services they want. You think that mail, fire protection, etc, wouldn't exist if they weren't state monopolies? What evidence do you have which supports this belief? It certainly runs counter to all available evidence (i.e. in *every other* service which isn't monopolized by the state). > > "house burn to the slab." This implies that fire departments wouldn't > > exist if they were not subsidized by the state. This is incorrect. > > After all, the first fire departments in the world were not publicly > > operated. > > Your right, they were a handfull of neighbors who happened to live near each > other. That isn't the question. The question is how do you plan on handling > the fire depts. duties in New York or Houston for example? Read to the end of the paragraph, my dear fellow, and you will be enlightened. You really should be a little more patient before you shoot off your mouth. > > In a free market, either the homeowner or the insurance > > companies will have an incentive to support fire departments. I'm > > Really? How do you figure that? Why do you expect that considering the level > of abuse in the insurance industry and the competition that drives it that > it won't get transfered into support of the fire departments without some > sort of outside regulation? What's that? Someone's running outside regulation in an anarchy? Your comment makes no sense in this context. > And remember, many people don't have insurance. They'll be able to buy it with the money they save in taxes and reduced prices due to the lack of taxation at each step in the production of the goods they purchase. > What happens when the ABC sponsored fire dept. gets to a non-insurance > house? Then they put out the fire, lest it spread uncontrollably to houses which *are* covered by ABC insurance. Then they present the homeowner with a bill, who in turn presents the bill to his insurance company. > Or one that's a XYZ house instead. How does the neighbor call the > right fire station when they notice the house burning? It is in the interest of the insurance companies (who run or finance the fire depts.) to make it easy for people to contact a fire department. (it saves on claims). Of course, what would probably end up happening is that local fire depts. would form, and be paid by insurance companies according to an agreed upon rate. A per-fire deal, if the frequency of fires is sufficient to support this, or a flat rate (which is nicer for the insurance companies, since they get to minimize their expenditures this way). > What happens when you > have somebody on a fixed or small income. Is your position that the paultry > sum they can raise will be taken seriously in regards compensating either > the insurance company or the fire dept.? Insurance companies don't have a problem collecting lots of small fees if they don't have to pay large ones very often. > What about the increase in > insurance premiums, what do you expect those to be compared to the current > tax rates? Significantly lower, overall, since we eliminate the middleman. > > willing to pay the local fire department a fee to stand ready to come > > and put out fires for me. > > You do it already, it's called taxes. Yes, but I'd rather do it *without* having a gun pointed at my head. I like to be able to choose which organization I want to give my money to (rather than having the decision made for me by armed men). Besides, money is fungible. For all you or I know, 100% of the money I've paid in taxes has gone to government boondoggles. > Yeah, reality certainly argues for civic participation and the willingness > of neighbors to come forward wit testimony. Perhaps the reason everyone hates each other so much these days is because they all know, deep down, that they're being screwed over by (as far as they can tell) everyone else. And they are, via that amazing organization, the state. Michael Hohensee From mah248 at nyu.edu Mon Nov 9 22:32:19 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:32:19 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd)] Message-ID: <3647DD8E.7FA61D66@nyu.edu> To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) From: Michael Hohensee Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:30:05 -0500 References: <199811100205.UAA14919 at einstein.ssz.com> Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:27:14 -0500 > > From: Petro > > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > > (fwd) > > > No, it's that facists & socialists like yourself think we should be > > happy letting you decide what our social responsibilities are. > > Actualy, no. I'm perfectly happy to let you run around paying no taxes on > your income. The part you're not going to like is that I'm also not going to > let you reap one iota of benefit from those systems that are built and > developed by those of us who do pay taxes without a cost. And the cost will > be more than what the necessary taxes would have been. Hell, a free-market > capitalist shouldn't begrudge a tidy profit anyone under any situation. Of course not --if these services were provided in a free market. The problem is, they're currently provided by a monopoly which is willing to initiate force (or threaten to do so) against any competitors. Look at what happened to poor old Lysander Spooner when he started competing with the mail carriers back in the 19th century. This much must be obvious, even to you --after all, we've been telling you this, in different ways, *over* and *over* again. > > I am perfectly willing to pay for a police force. A police force > > that arrests ALLEGED rapists, treats them like human beings until found > > guilty and then deals with them as the law indicates. I am NOT willing to > > pay for a police force that spends most of it's time (well, aside from > > eating doughnuts, drinking coffee and collecting bribes) chasing after > > teenagers with illegal chemicals. I am not willing to pay for a police > > force that extorts money from these same teenagers. I am not willing to pay > > money for a police force that thinks it needs to arrest people for > > "loitering", "Mob Action", when it's defined as more than 4 people standing > > together in a public place, and ESPECIALLY when EVERY TIME THEY ARREST > > SOMEONE, IT'S THROWN OUT OF COURT. > > Neither am I, unfortunately paying taxes or not won't resolve those sorts of > issues. What is required is public over-watch groups (as was recently > implimented in Austin, pisses the cops off big time) and a change in the way > we run our prisons. As to the way people are currently treated prior to > being found guilty at a trial is an abuse of power on the part of those > parties involved and clearly cruel and unusual punishment for an innocent > man. > > Of course the *REAL* problem isn't the police. It's the people who make the > laws that the police are sworn to uphold and the judges with a social agenda > (that is not relevant to their job however much they may squeel like pigs). > That process *is* most certainly an ideal place to inject consideration and > respect for civil liberties and the purvue of government institutions. You again make the argument that everything'd be fine if it weren't for those nasty people who are abusing their offices. Surely you remember the flaw in that argument. If you don't, read my last post. > > > I am willing to pay for fire protection. I am not willing to pay > > for "universal health care", "welfare", and other such nonsense. > > The Constitution happens to mention that the federal government is detailed > with taking care of the general welfare. If you don't like that sort of stuff > then get a Constitutional amendment passed. Gee Jim, you're just as bad as those other statist pricks who like to reinterpret a word's meaning after it's been changed by decades of propaganda. For instance, I very much doubt that "welfare" and "forced charity" were synonymous, back in the late 18th century. > > very angry at having to pay for other shit (Senate Luncheons and Swimming > > Pools, the Militaries greatly inflated budget, all the waste that is todays > > federal government). > > Agreed. Throwing the Constitution away won't fix that and going to a > free-market monopolistic no-social-responsibility-at-all system such as > anarcho-capitalism is sure won't do it. You still haven't given any solid arguments as to why this is the case. You still ignore what we've been telling you and persist in believeing that all anarcho-capitalists are socially irresponsible at heart. (Even when the only apparent difference between me and you is that I'm not willing to point a gun at another person, or have it pointed for me, to make him perform his "social responsibility" to give me his property for one reason or another.) > > Yes, but a state can kill those who don't wish to be governed. Can > > and does routinely. > > Oh what hyperbole. You make it sound like the Nazi's have invaded. They > haven't. Really? The parallels we've seen recently have been striking. > Yes, there are misguided people out there. Yes, there are just > plain old corrupt people out there. That won't change irrespective of the > political system (or lack of one). You were correct right up until the open-parens. > They don't just go out and pick people > off the street and shoot them you're over-reacting and succumbing to a > paranoid delusion of persecution. Oh no, they haven't started doing that *yet* (as far as I know, anyway). They're steadily moving in that direction, however. > Unless you kill somebody or move a few tons of coke your individual chances > of being killed by the state is less than being struck by lightening. What's wrong with moving a few tons of coke? Who is harmed by coke who does not wish to be? > > But did you bother to read them this time? > > Actualy I read it twice before I even decide if I'm going to reply. > That would explain your responses. You read them so fast that all you see are little hooks for you to tack on your pre-recorded statist rants to, while your mind skims smoothly over those arguments which don't conform to your preconcieved notions. Michael Hohensee From mah248 at nyu.edu Mon Nov 9 22:36:05 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:36:05 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100252.UAA15446@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3647DDEA.2D9B5604@nyu.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > > So what are saying...that because any government ever happened to abuse its > citizens in a particular way is justification to do away with all > government? No, it's because *all* governments abuse their citizens. Michael Hohensee From quirk at cyberpass.net Mon Nov 9 23:09:20 1998 From: quirk at cyberpass.net (Quirk) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:09:20 +0800 Subject: an odd one at pub.anonymizer Message-ID: --mark-- -hedges- reviews http://pub.anonymizer.com/~lcchrist The National Socialist Church of Christ espouses a turning away from the old era figuring Hitler and the current Destruction of the Earth Part II as the antichrist ending the cycle of Pisces. In the next phase of polar angular orientation we will understand each other, the universe, and grow into what we can be, because we figure out that otherwise we'll kill us all. They demand spiritual revolution. Therefore they demand obscene gestures and French Soltiers flipping dead cows with catapults at the Brits looking for the Holy Grail. They are not centric on any ism but expand their inclusiveness of what is sacred: the universe. Here I would speak of Godel and the beauty of the semi-organised chaos / order / balance / contrast forms inherent in the universe. In their site the message remains that Destruction is a necessary force in the world from time to time. That induces a feeling of condonence, not condolences. The site plays some interesting games with a lot of very uplifting philosophy for the understanding of the Holocaust and the genocide which occurs today, but then, using Biblical reference and passive-voice claims to the legitimacy of prophecy, it portrays Jesus risen again as Hitler: "Christ had warned us that when He would return, He would come as a thief in the night. Indeed, it had been prophesied that no man would know the day or the hour of His return. Indeed, no one could ever have expected that the Second Coming of Christ would mean His return to play the completely opposite role that He had played before, coming not to save the world, but to be its judge, baptizing not with water but rather with fire and force! The Second Coming of Christ came in such a completely unexpected fashion that mankind remained completely unconscious of His return and the fulfillment of Christian prophesy for more than fifty years!" The speaker is anonymous and does not provide the contact address. From hedges at infonex.com Mon Nov 9 23:36:49 1998 From: hedges at infonex.com (Mark Hedges) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:36:49 +0800 Subject: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B277@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Matthew James Gering wrote: >Yes, I assumed as much. But it is electronic circuits that are EMP/nuclear >hardened, not the "encryption technology." We have a populace that doesn't >understand what cryptography is, such reckless statements don't help, >especially putting nuclear and encryption in the same sentence. But what a fab marketing campaign, the nuclear-hardened bozz-bangle mind-fuzzer, for those people who don't understand. But it keeps them listening, in addition to being extremely informative for them which do. How'd'ya make a nuclear-hardened circuit, Tim? Mark From Announcements_reply at rpkusa.com Tue Nov 10 16:27:46 1998 From: Announcements_reply at rpkusa.com (Jack Oswald / CEO / RPK Security) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:27:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: RPK SECURITY ADDS C SOURCE LIBRARY AND SOLARIS PORT TO ENCRYPTONITE POWERFUL PUBLIC KEY ENCRYPTION TOOLKIT Message-ID: <199811110023.QAA16095@proxy3.ba.best.com> You have received this message because at some time in the past your name was submitted to our e-mail mailing list database. If you do not wish (or no longer wish) to receive announcements, updates and news concerning the RPK Encryptonite Engine or the RPK InvisiMail e-mail security products, please forward this message to remove at rpkusa.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONTACT: Paula Miller Lyn Oswald Nadel Phelan, Inc. RPK Security, Inc. (831) 439-5570 x277 (212) 488-9891 paulam at nadelphelan.com lynoswald at rpkusa.com RPK SECURITY ADDS C SOURCE LIBRARY AND SOLARIS PORT TO ENCRYPTONITE POWERFUL PUBLIC KEY ENCRYPTION TOOLKIT SAN FRANCISCO, CA. November 3, 1998 - RPK Security, Inc. (www.rpkusa.com), a technology leader in fast public key encryption, announced today the addition of a Solaris port and C source library to its RPK Encryptonite Software Toolkit version 3.0. The RPK Toolkit enables integrators, developers and engineers to quickly and easily incorporate fast public key encryption and strong security into applications, without knowledge of cryptography. The RPK Toolkit, a software implementation of the RPK Encryptonite Engine, allows developers to build custom applications with strong encryption for information sensitive applications and industries such as Internet, communications, legal, health care and financial services. The Toolkit provides 40 percent improvement in engine initialization (compared with V2.1), resulting in remarkably better application response times. With a new "packet encryption" technique, the RPK Toolkit is well suited for broadcast and multi-cast applications, especially on the Internet. "Because the RPK Toolkit is developed outside of the U.S., it is not subject to U.S. export laws which gives a tremendous advantage to international customers, allowing them to produce secure, fast and flexible systems with strong encryption," said Jack Oswald, president and CEO of RPK Security. The RPK Encryptonite Engine uniquely combines all the benefits of other public key systems (authentication, digital signatures and digital certificates) with the speed of a secret key system into one algorithm. With the Encryptonite Engine's superior performance, applications requiring streaming data, sound, video or numerous transactions, such as credit card payments, receive instantaneous responses and secure communication links. The RPK Toolkit includes: ANSI standard C/C++ libraries for Win95/98/NT, HP/UX, Sun Solaris (C only) and Linux, Delphi 3.0/4.0 VCL component for Win95/NT, DLL and ActiveX. It also has been compiled and tested with Visual C++, Borland C++ Builder and gnu/g++. Pricing and Availability: The RPK Encryptonite Software Toolkit is available for licensing worldwide. Pricing starts at $695 per developer (development only). Deployment license fees are based upon custom configurations. For sales information, call (415) 563-1800 or e-mail sales at rpkusa.com ABOUT RPK SECURITY Founded in 1995, RPK Security, Inc. is a technology leader in fast public key encryption. RPK's cryptographic research and product development is based in New Zealand, Switzerland and the U.K, with worldwide sales and marketing in San Francisco, CA. Contact RPK at www.rpkusa.com or (212) 488-9891 or www.rpkusa.com From rsriram at krdl.org.sg Tue Nov 10 01:25:08 1998 From: rsriram at krdl.org.sg (R Sriram) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:25:08 +0800 Subject: Papers and tutorials on ECC. Message-ID: <199811100857.QAA29789@aquila.iss.nus.sg> FYI: There are some good tutorials and papers on ECC at http://www.certicom.com/ecc From pramotej at thai.com Tue Nov 10 01:25:36 1998 From: pramotej at thai.com (Pramote J.) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:25:36 +0800 Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1! Message-ID: <199811100851.PAA04207@ratree.psu.ac.th> Encrypted_Message=On 4 May 1998 02:57:07 GMT, in article <6ijaq3$bb1 at news1.panix.com>, Information Security (= Guy Polis ) wrote: # Guy Polis (guy at panix.com, eviljay at bway.net) is a pedophile child # molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers # after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography # JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet. The poster's been awful quiet lately - did the feds arrest him? Browser=Netscape:Mozilla/3.04Gold (Win95; I) Remedy=Tell the world From pramotej at thai.com Tue Nov 10 01:28:29 1998 From: pramotej at thai.com (Pramote J.) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:28:29 +0800 Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1! Message-ID: <199811100850.PAA04184@ratree.psu.ac.th> Encrypted_Message=On 4 May 1998 02:57:07 GMT, in article <6ijaq3$bb1 at news1.panix.com>, Information Security (= Guy Polis ) wrote: # Guy Polis (guy at panix.com, eviljay at bway.net) is a pedophile child # molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers # after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography # JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet. The poster's been awful quiet lately - did the feds arrest him? Browser=Netscape:Mozilla/3.04Gold (Win95; I) Remedy=Tell the world From pramotej at thai.com Tue Nov 10 01:34:24 1998 From: pramotej at thai.com (Pramote J.) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:34:24 +0800 Subject: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1! Message-ID: <199811100851.PAA04223@ratree.psu.ac.th> Encrypted_Message=On 4 May 1998 02:57:07 GMT, in article <6ijaq3$bb1 at news1.panix.com>, Information Security (= Guy Polis ) wrote: # Guy Polis (guy at panix.com, eviljay at bway.net) is a pedophile child # molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers # after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography # JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet. The poster's been awful quiet lately - did the feds arrest him? Browser=Netscape:Mozilla/3.04Gold (Win95; I) Remedy=Tell the world From apf2 at apf2.com Tue Nov 10 03:22:37 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:22:37 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981110111844.0093ad40@apf2.com> I've been lurking on this thread for a while, and I am amazed by the level of utopist muck that is being spewed here by you. Without some government the Bad Guys will be the only ones with anything. It is only with the threat of losing their power that leaders do good. If they had no power which could be lost or taken they will always do what's best for them in the short term, which is usually to shit on the peons. Dictators (like Pinochet and Gates) do their dirty deeds because they feel no need to placate the masses. This anarcho-capitalist spew is so much crap that the bullshit indicators are blaring at top volume. If the people can't control a constitutional government, known for having peacefully free elections for over two hundred years, then how the hell do think you can convince somebody that the people are going to be able to control warlords and monopolies. It's called, "You don't like it? Bang, Bang, you're dead!" Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then come back and tell us. From sorens at workmail.com Tue Nov 10 05:39:15 1998 From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:39:15 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100336.VAA15683@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <364848CB.A2260BA8@workmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2471 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 05:54:28 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:54:28 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101327.HAA17191@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:18:44 +0100 > From: "Albert P. Franco, II" > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the > Foregone(fwd) > Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at > least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting > anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure > it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then > come back and tell us. And I've something to add. Any person who mentions Iceland as a workable anarchy is in deep trouble. I done the research and it doesn't fly as a workable example *unless* you're willing to legalize murder which is *EXACTLY* what the Icelanders did. It didn't work for them long-term and it won't work for us either. So if you want to use it you've got to explain why legalizing murder is a social positive. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Nov 10 05:55:10 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:55:10 +0800 Subject: CALEA likely will cover Internet telephony Message-ID: <199811101330.FAA08525@smtp.well.com> >Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:30:19 -0500 >To: politech at vorlon.mit.edu >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: Wiretapping law likely will cover Internet telephony > >[Any blame should not properly go to the FCC but Congress, which voted for Digital Telephony/CALEA in the first place. --Declan] > >=== > >http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16146.html > > Wiretapping Internet Phone Lines > by Declan McCullagh > > 4:00 a.m. 10.Nov.98.PST > A federal wiretapping law designed to let > police snoop on telephone calls could > have profound implications for companies > that offer Internet phone service. > > [...] > > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 05:58:55 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:58:55 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101331.HAA17287@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:32:10 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) > Jim Choate wrote: > > > > So what are saying...that because any government ever happened to abuse its > > citizens in a particular way is justification to do away with all > > government? > > No, it's because *all* governments abuse their citizens. People abuse people, it's why anarcho-anything won't work. Quit confusing human nature with political systems. Democracy recognizes that individuals are abused, and that they are wont to accept that abuse until it becomes truly excessive (which our country isn't by a long shot). It's the reason the individual is given a vote and civil liberties. If you seriously think you're going to pass a set of laws ( or by extension throw the ones we have out) and the world will be a better place then you are one confused puppy. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 05:59:26 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:59:26 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) Message-ID: <199811101334.HAA17420@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:23:34 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) > > I'm still waiting for one of you guys to explain in detail how it works on a > > day to day basis... > > It works much the same as it does today, except that there isn't a > parasitic state wasting resources on feeding a useless band of > politicians, or pointing guns at people who don't obey its whims. Cop-out. "It's the same but different" is spin-doctor bullshit. Explain how the system works. Explain how the various systems operate, how the costs are calculated, and how they're paid. I want to see the same level of *specificity* that I and others have agreed to provide you in our examples. We want an answer not some glib off the shoulder quip. [I'm deleting the rest of this since it doesn't answer any questions that have been posed to the anarcho-whatever side] ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 05:59:44 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:59:44 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101323.HAA17131@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:08:11 -0500 > From: Soren > Subject: Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) >

This also provides an outlet for the social do-gooders to create their > utopias by vastly inflating those taxes associated with less favored consumables Hm, interesting choice of terms for comparison. So you're admitting that anarcho-whatever isn't a social do-gooder, the intent is not to make the system better or more equitable. Rather you're admitting, apparently tacitly, that the goal of the anarcho-whatever is personal rather than social improvement. There is also a further tacit admission with this system won't address the social ills that plague us currently. I must admit I'm impressed. In a couple of days I've run across two seperate anarcho-whatever supporters who admit their proposal won't address the social ills but rather leaves them up to chance. That's more than in the last 20 years. > be heavily taxed, and what not.  Perhaps this is why there were multiple > states in the US rather than a single homogenous state, prior to Honest > (I am not a crook) Abe? Duh, I believe the boy has it. >

Last time I looked at it, there were 108 separate taxes included in > the retail cost of an egg and 112 for a loaf of bread, so yes, I would I'd like a reference to this particular list if possible. >

One question for the socialists out there;  when is the promised > egalitarian utopia  going to kick in?  It doesn't seem to be > getting any closer. I'd ask the same question of the anarcho-whatever but you took care of it so adroitely above... ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sorens at workmail.com Tue Nov 10 06:03:03 1998 From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:03:03 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <36484ED1.6F3B9F1E@workmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 06:07:09 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:07:09 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101340.HAA17511@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:33:53 -0500 > From: Soren > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the > Foregone(fwd) > Is there some specific reason they need to be large scale or long lasting?  Yes. There are the issues of human psychology which requires stable social institutions, there is the question of economic fragility if the market is too fragile or volatile. There is the question of long-term ownership of property and services. It's hard to run a business if you don't know what the rules will most likely be in a year or 10. There are lots of reasons that social and political institutions should be long-lived. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 06:07:28 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:07:28 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101342.HAA17593@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Blanc" > Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:41:55 -0800 > > : Jesus, it's a miracle. Blanc and I actualy agree....I think > : I'm gonna faint. > ................................................... > > > Eureka, success. > Keep it in mind. Everything I ever said that you disagreed with relates to > that post. Well I wouldn't jump too high Blanc, it's exactly what I've been saying for most of my life. It's what I've included in dozens of posts over the last few weeks regarding the *respect* of civil liberties and the individual. Perhaps you were just to busy to actualy read them.... ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fod at brd.ie Tue Nov 10 06:14:18 1998 From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:14:18 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100539.XAA16120@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <36483E87.E735E257@brd.ie> Jim Choate wrote: > > You can make money from information provision by charging extra for > > up-to-date news, or by charging so little that the cost from the > > original provider is so low that it's not worth anyones time to > > redistribute it, > > That's true now, why don't we see these effects... We do. News inherently has a 'sell-by' date. The most obvious example is stock quotes where delayed quotes are provided for free whereas real-time quotes are heavily charged for. The recipients of such information care very much about latency, since it's possible to trade on any differences that may exist. There's even some research on attacks that simply delay packets in such networks. Cheers, Frank O'Dwyer. From howree at cable.navy.mil Tue Nov 10 06:16:44 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:16:44 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force In-Reply-To: <199811090528.VAA01234@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981110233948.00855b80@205.83.192.13> At 11:11 PM 11/9/98 GMT, Adam Back wrote: > >Vladimir writes: >> what we really need is a government which can personalize its >> services, and people pay for what they use. > >yes, agree. In other words we need freedom for business to compete in >provision of all services currently monopolised by government. I think a distinction needs to be made between what they (the Sheeple{tm}) NEED and what they "Request for Convenience". Wrongfull lawsuits and welfare careerists in mind, I think this is an important distinction. --snip-- >If you can opt out of literally any goverment service, I suspect >government revenues would nearly disappear. Everything they "supply" >can be supplied more cheaply by business. So what government remained >would have to compete on a fair basis with private industry. Not so fast, Kimosabe- what business would rule against itself a la the Supreme Court against Congress, when a business decision was spiritually and/or lawfully in violation of the constitution and legitimately passed laws enacted since its inception??? >> the big quandary is people who can't pay for what they use >> like social security. ultimately the question is how much >> money the state has the authority to collect for this kind of >> thing, and the political answer has varied every year, but it >> has gone up every year in the 20th century generally. > >I think the state should have no authority to collect anything. >Charity at the point of a gun is not charity. The state is an >extremely inefficient distributor of charitable funds anyway. This goes back to the "what they NEED vs. what they request for convenience (theirs)" argument. >> the big problem imho is fraud/waste/corruption in govt though. I definitely a problem. Should AP politics apply??? What would be the method of redress for infractions that were so heinous that the perpetrator was deemed untrustworthy and removal from office the only recourse? Who would "remove" the heinous individual for incarceration in an appropriate facility??? Who would decide that such action was warranted??? >> think if a lot of it were eliminated we would be flabbergasted at >> how little a personal contribution it takes to take care of people >> who need it. bureaucracies are the most expensive thing on the >> planet. here's hoping that cyberspace will cut through the >> *ultimate* middleman: govt. > >Amen to that. > >Adam Perhaps we should view the internet as a wedge, not as the fulcrum, lever and force. I think it would be intuitive, instructive, and demonstrative to operate on that premise rather than the "here is the internet, my trump card, I rest my case" style of argument. Reeza! If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From Exodus_Books at bellsouth.com Tue Nov 10 22:18:59 1998 From: Exodus_Books at bellsouth.com (Exodus.Books) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:18:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" Message-ID: <199811110547.AAA02632@websmtp1.bellsouth.bigfoot.com> CALL TODAY TO ORDER THIS BOOK - (800) 830-2047 "What nobody had the nerve to tell you until now." "Real evidence of what you only suspected." "The Black Church as you've never known it before." Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church by N. Moore $16.00 ISBN: 0-9658299-2-8 _____________________________ Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church is an honest, behind the scenes look at the African-American church. The author spent a decade as a preacher and pastor in the black church and is actually betraying an unofficial code of silence by writing this book. 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State Street #348 Rockford, IL 61108 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 06:20:48 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:20:48 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101343.HAA17689@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:24:23 +0000 > From: "Frank O'Dwyer" > Subject: Re: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) > Jim Choate wrote: > > > You can make money from information provision by charging extra for > > > up-to-date news, or by charging so little that the cost from the > > > original provider is so low that it's not worth anyones time to > > > redistribute it, > > > > That's true now, why don't we see these effects... > > We do. News inherently has a 'sell-by' date. The most obvious example is > stock quotes where delayed quotes are provided for free whereas > real-time quotes are heavily charged for. The recipients of such > information care very much about latency, since it's possible to trade > on any differences that may exist. There's even some research on attacks > that simply delay packets in such networks. Ah, true but I was addressing the last sentence about the cost being so low nobody will charge for it.....sounds like the nuclear industry marketing speal of the 50's.... Sorry for the confusion, I guess I should have edited the first part out since it wasn't relevant. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From howree at cable.navy.mil Tue Nov 10 06:21:04 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:21:04 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B275@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981110234947.008717d0@205.83.192.13> At 05:25 PM 11/9/98 -0800, Matthew James Gering wrote: > >Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > >> cpunks actually contribute to this problem with their nihilistic >> philosophy in general. the msg is that it is a waste of time >> to engage in group activity or political discourse or lobbying >> against the govt or organization or *whatever*... it's actually >> just a variant on the sheeple passivity. > > >"If you think of yourselves as helpless and ineffectual, it is >certain that you will create a despotic government to be your >master. The wise despot, therefore, maintains among his subjects >a popular sense that they are helpless and ineffectual." > --Frank Herbert, The Dosadi Experiment > > >I don't think many cpunks (and other freedom loving people) are necessarily >nihilistic so much as they have come to the conclusion that to ignore and/or >subvert government has higher probability of success than trying to reform >it -- much to the demise of the Libertarian Party. The whole cryptography >and geodesic communications being the bane of the nation-state theme tends >to support this idea. > > Matt The problem is ill-defined. the Problem is ill-defined. the problem is Ill-Defined. The problem is not cpunks, it is the perception others have towards cpunks. I think the laws of society will prevent the message(tm) from reaching the Sheeple(tm) because it would be a disruption in the Daily Routine(tm). Who coined the phrase; "a sane man, in an insane society...." Reeza! _____________________________________________________________________ | | | "It is a doctrine of war not to assume the enemy will not come, | | but rather to rely on one's readiness to meet him..." | | | | -- Sun Tsu | |_____________________________________________________________________| From howree at cable.navy.mil Tue Nov 10 06:31:48 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:31:48 +0800 Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981110235838.007dd830@205.83.192.13> At 12:27 AM 11/10/98 GMT, Adam Back wrote: > >Christopher Petro writes: >> In other words Jim, Fuck You. I, and I'd bet most people here, >> including Mr. May, are perfectly willing, and hell even eager to pay their >> share, to assume their social responcibility, they just get very, very >> angry at having to pay OTHER peoples social responcibility, and get very, >> very angry at having to pay for other shit (Senate Luncheons and Swimming >> Pools, the Militaries greatly inflated budget, all the waste that is todays >> federal government). --interrupt-- I would question, sagely (IMHO), do not confuse the military budget- you know, the Military budget- with the NSA portion of the military budget- last I heard they were getting about 1/3rd. Meanwhile, the lowly Military- Navy at least, is operating at 3 or 4 X the prior tempo with a significantly reduced portion of that military budget. Gee, is the current administration trying to reduce military infrastructure by wearing it out- and not purchasing repair parts or replacements??? Or all the dollars going towards the DNA database, Echelon, and ??? --resume usual conversation-- >What is annoying is "charity" (social security) at the point of a gun. >Our "conscience" is being decided by government which is acting as a >broker for those lobby for their "need" and for your assets to be >stolen and redistributed to them. > >What people aren't willing to pay for shouldn't happen. Period. If >that means people starve well those complaining loudest had better >dig deeper into their pockets. > >Anything else is socialism tending to facism, as Hayek argues in The >Road to Serfdom. > >> >No state can govern those who don't wish to be governed, violence or no. >> >> Yes, but a state can kill those who don't wish to be governed. Can >> and does routinely. > >That's what's so interesting about cyberspace, once the payment >systems get there -- government thugs can't beat up, murder, or >incarcerate anonymous nyms. _Then_ Jim's "No state can govern those >who don't wish to be governed" starts to become true. > >Adam > > > If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From sorens at workmail.com Tue Nov 10 06:54:37 1998 From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:54:37 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101323.HAA17131@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <36485B8A.B183694F@workmail.com> Jim Choate wrote: > >

This also provides an outlet for the social do-gooders to create their > > utopias by vastly inflating those taxes associated with less favored consumables > > Hm, interesting choice of terms for comparison. So you're admitting that > anarcho-whatever isn't a social do-gooder, the intent is not to make the > system better or more equitable. Rather you're admitting, apparently > tacitly, that the goal of the anarcho-whatever is personal rather than > social improvement. There is also a further tacit admission with this > system won't address the social ills that plague us currently. > I used to be an anarcho-capitalist, but concluded I was far too selfish. In fact, if you'd read the first line about the libertarian compromize, rather than looking for hooks, you'd see that I was attempting rapprochement. Mostly I'm not at all interested in being drawn into political wastings of energy, life is too short. I made my choice 25 years ago, and have been (largely) free and untaxed for that time. Harry Browne's "How I found freedom in an unfree world" came along at about the same time I cut loose from the nation-state. Why the pejorative use of "anarcho-whatever" and the whole personal level at which you pitch your responses? Is it your intent to stir up anger by using imflammatory rhetoric? Or (more likely) is this an example of newspeak? Whatever, it comes across as mean-spirited and sad. An indicator perhaps, of someone who loves to "go for the jugular". A common "small man" trait. Are you a small man Jim? Do you need the power of the state to make you feel big by proxy? One thing the anarcho-capitalist rants all contain, is frustration at being under the thumb of authority. They believe that outlawing big thumbs will fix this. Until that happy day (should it ever occur), I have perceived that big thumbs are very clumsy. I prefer to move rapidly enough that they have difficulty in pinning me down, numbering me, punching and spindling me. My domiciles tend to be in nation-states that provide safe havens to those who have stuff that the big thumbs would like to expropriate. I visited and left the US at about the time the streets paved with gold turned to the streets paved with goldbrickers. Some of the socialist propaganda leaked out in your posting. Why would I be concerned about curing "social ills"? I'm fully tied up in interacting with my own little society -- my parents, siblings, children, friends, pets, possessions. Why would I need or desire any other (arbitrary) social connections? I don't have your missionary zeal I suppose. All such change that I could effect would be as nothing, seen from the perspective of 100 years in the future. I'd hate to be branded as a 'deadbeat dad' by my nakama because I was paying more attention to righting abstract wrongs, than reading to my children. Pillory Klinton was almost correct; it does take a village, or buggering off to live in one and leaving the neo-roman empiricists to prop up their ailing support system without me. If you are more concerned about addressing social ills than your personal life, I feel sorry for you. If you want to make a contribution to the social ills I have accumulated however, I'll send you my numbered account details and you can deposit directly. > >

Last time I looked at it, there were 108 separate taxes included in > > the retail cost of an egg and 112 for a loaf of bread, so yes, I would > > I'd like a reference to this particular list if possible. Go find it yourself. I'm not a charitable or state institution. Here's a hint though -- Ralph Nader, comsumer watchdogs. > > > >

One question for the socialists out there;  when is the promised > > egalitarian utopia  going to kick in?  It doesn't seem to be > > getting any closer. > > I'd ask the same question of the anarcho-whatever but you took care of it so > adroitely above... > Very good point. I take it as reinforcing the correctness of my decision to opt-out. From howree at cable.navy.mil Tue Nov 10 06:59:39 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:59:39 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100205.UAA14919@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111001918.00858100@205.83.192.13> At 08:05 PM 11/9/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:27:14 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone >> (fwd) --snip-- >> In other words Jim, Fuck You. I, and I'd bet most people here, >> including Mr. May, are perfectly willing, and hell even eager to pay their >> share, to assume their social responcibility, they just get very, very >> angry at having to pay OTHER peoples social responcibility, and get very, I was following the discourse in this post avidly, until I came to this paragraph. You do not know what Tim May thinks. No one except Tim May knows what Tim May thinks. Your presumption is an insult to Tim May, and everyone else who might happen to be "graced" by your presumption of what "they" think. I suggest you take your own advice, don't choke when you swallow. Remember, you deserve it. You lose. If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 07:07:35 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:07:35 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101414.IAA17997@einstein.ssz.com> Hi Mr. or Ms. support at xroads.com, I'd like to advise you of abuse of your system and the resultant spam that I am receiving as a result. I've checked my subscription list and it contains NO xroads.com subscribers at all. You are apparently having legitimite, non-commercial traffic forwarded to your site in order to cause excessive work and potential denial of services (to your customers). Please police your own house before you go around threatening $500 leins and prosecution on others. Have a nice day. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: > From root at dogbert.xroads.com Tue Nov 10 07:52:20 1998 > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:52:46 -0700 (MST) > Message-Id: <199811101352.GAA09138 at dogbert.xroads.com> > To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: Re: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) > References: <199811101343.HAA17689 at einstein.ssz.com> > In-Reply-To: <199811101343.HAA17689 at einstein.ssz.com> > From: abuse at xroads.com > X-Loop: noloop at noloop.nlp > > >Forwarded message: > > >> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:24:23 +0000 > >> From: "Frank O'Dwyer" > >> Subject: Re: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) > > >> Jim Choate wrote: > >> > > You can make money from information provision by charging extra for > >> > > up-to-date news, or by charging so little that the cost from the > >> > > original provider is so low that it's not worth anyones time to > >> > > redistribute it, > >> > > >> > That's true now, why don't we see these effects... > >> > >> We do. News inherently has a 'sell-by' date. The most obvious example is > >> stock quotes where delayed quotes are provided for free whereas > >> real-time quotes are heavily charged for. The recipients of such > >> information care very much about latency, since it's possible to trade > >> on any differences that may exist. There's even some research on attacks > >> that simply delay packets in such networks. > > >Ah, true but I was addressing the last sentence about the cost being so low > >nobody will charge for it.....sounds like the nuclear industry marketing > >speal of the 50's.... > > >Sorry for the confusion, I guess I should have edited the first part out > >since it wasn't relevant. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want > > the right answers. > > > Scully (X-Files) > > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is apparently at least the second unsolicited commercial email from your > address. If you feel you have received this email in error, please contact > support at xroads.com > > Senders of unsolicited commercial email will be charged $500 for each instance > of unsolicited commerical email on Crossroads network systems, and are > subject to prosecution under the following Federal statute, and other > applicable federal and local laws. > > > * UNITED STATES CODE > > + TITLE 47 - TELEGRAPHS, TELEPHONES, AND RADIOTELEGRAPHS > > o CHAPTER 5 - WIRE OR RADIO COMMUNICATION > > # SUBCHAPTER II - COMMON CARRIERS > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > � 227. Restrictions on use of telephone equipment > * (a) Definitions > > As used in this section - > + (1) The term ''automatic telephone dialing system'' means > equipment which has the capacity - > o (A) to store or produce telephone numbers to be called, > using a random or sequential number generator; and > o (B) to dial such numbers. > + (2) The term ''telephone facsimile machine'' means equipment > which has the capacity (A) to transcribe text or images, or > both, from paper into an electronic signal and to transmit > that signal over a regular telephone line, or (B) to > transcribe text or images (or both) from an electronic signal > received over a regular telephone line onto paper. > + (3) The term ''telephone solicitation'' means the initiation > of a telephone call or message for the purpose of encouraging > the purchase or rental of, or investment in, property, goods, > or services, which is transmitted to any person, but such > term does not include a call or message (A) to any person > with that person's prior express invitation or permission, > (B) to any person with whom the caller has an established > business relationship, or (C) by a tax exempt nonprofit > organization. > + (4) The term ''unsolicited advertisement'' means any material > advertising the commercial availability or quality of any > property, goods, or services which is transmitted to any > person without that person's prior express invitation or > permission. > * (b) Restrictions on use of automated telephone equipment > + (1) Prohibitions > > It shall be unlawful for any person within the United States > - > o (A) to make any call (other than a call made for > emergency purposes or made with the prior express > consent of the called party) using any automatic > telephone dialing system or an artificial or prerecorded > voice - > # (i) to any emergency telephone line (including any > ''911'' line and any emergency line of a hospital, > medical physician or service office, health care > facility, poison control center, or fire protection > or law enforcement agency); > # (ii) to the telephone line of any guest room or > patient room of a hospital, health care facility, > elderly home, or similar establishment; or > # (iii) to any telephone number assigned to a paging > service, cellular telephone service, specialized > mobile radio service, or other radio common carrier > service, or any service for which the called party > is charged for the call; > o (B) to initiate any telephone call to any residential > telephone line using an artificial or prerecorded voice > to deliver a message without the prior express consent > of the called party, unless the call is initiated for > emergency purposes or is exempted by rule or order by > the Commission under paragraph (2)(B); > o (C) to use any telephone facsimile machine, computer, or > other device to send an unsolicited advertisement to a > telephone facsimile machine; or > o (D) to use an automatic telephone dialing system in such > a way that two or more telephone lines of a multi-line > business are engaged simultaneously. > + (2) Regulations; exemptions and other provisions > > The Commission shall prescribe regulations to implement the > requirements of this subsection. In implementing the > requirements of this subsection, the Commission - > o (A) shall consider prescribing regulations to allow > businesses to avoid receiving calls made using an > artificial or prerecorded voice to which they have not > given their prior express consent; > o (B) may, by rule or order, exempt from the requirements > of paragraph (1)(B) of this subsection, subject to such > conditions as the Commission may prescribe - > # (i) calls that are not made for a commercial > purpose; and > # (ii) such classes or categories of calls made for > commercial purposes as the Commission determines - > @ (I) will not adversely affect the privacy > rights that this section is intended to > protect; and > @ (II) do not include the transmission of any > unsolicited advertisement; and > o (C) may, by rule or order, exempt from the requirements > of paragraphs (FOOTNOTE 1) (1)(A)(iii) of this > subsection calls to a telephone number assigned to a > cellular telephone service that are not charged to the > called party, subject to such conditions as the > Commission may prescribe as necessary in the interest of > the privacy rights this section is intended to protect. > (FOOTNOTE 1) So in original. Probably should be > ''paragraph''. > + (3) Private right of action > > A person or entity may, if otherwise permitted by the laws or > rules of court of a State, bring in an appropriate court of > that State - > o (A) an action based on a violation of this subsection or > the regulations prescribed under this subsection to > enjoin such violation, > o (B) an action to recover for actual monetary loss from > such a violation, or to receive $500 in damages for each > such violation, whichever is greater, or > o (C) both such actions. If the court finds that the > defendant willfully or knowingly violated this > subsection or the regulations prescribed under this > subsection, the court may, in its discretion, increase > the amount of the award to an amount equal to not more > than 3 times the amount available under subparagraph (B) > of this paragraph. > * (c) Protection of subscriber privacy rights > + (1) Rulemaking proceeding required > > Within 120 days after December 20, 1991, the Commission shall > initiate a rulemaking proceeding concerning the need to > protect residential telephone subscribers' privacy rights to > avoid receiving telephone solicitations to which they object. > The proceeding shall - > o (A) compare and evaluate alternative methods and > procedures (including the use of electronic databases, > telephone network technologies, special directory > markings, industry-based or company-specific ''do not > call'' systems, and any other alternatives, individually > or in combination) for their effectiveness in protecting > such privacy rights, and in terms of their cost and > other advantages and disadvantages; > o (B) evaluate the categories of public and private > entities that would have the capacity to establish and > administer such methods and procedures; > o (C) consider whether different methods and procedures > may apply for local telephone solicitations, such as > local telephone solicitations of small businesses or > holders of second class mail permits; > o (D) consider whether there is a need for additional > Commission authority to further restrict telephone > solicitations, including those calls exempted under > subsection (a)(3) of this section, and, if such a > finding is made and supported by the record, propose > specific restrictions to the Congress; and > o (E) develop proposed regulations to implement the > methods and procedures that the Commission determines > are most effective and efficient to accomplish the > purposes of this section. > + (2) Regulations > > Not later than 9 months after December 20, 1991, the > Commission shall conclude the rulemaking proceeding initiated > under paragraph (1) and shall prescribe regulations to > implement methods and procedures for protecting the privacy > rights described in such paragraph in an efficient, > effective, and economic manner and without the imposition of > any additional charge to telephone subscribers. > + (3) Use of database permitted > > The regulations required by paragraph (2) may require the > establishment and operation of a single national database to > compile a list of telephone numbers of residential > subscribers who object to receiving telephone solicitations, > and to make that compiled list and parts thereof available > for purchase. If the Commission determines to require such a > database, such regulations shall - > o (A) specify a method by which the Commission will select > an entity to administer such database; > o (B) require each common carrier providing telephone > exchange service, in accordance with regulations > prescribed by the Commission, to inform subscribers for > telephone exchange service of the opportunity to provide > notification, in accordance with regulations established > under this paragraph, that such subscriber objects to > receiving telephone solicitations; > o (C) specify the methods by which each telephone > subscriber shall be informed, by the common carrier that > provides local exchange service to that subscriber, of > (i) the subscriber's right to give or revoke a > notification of an objection under subparagraph (A), and > (ii) the methods by which such right may be exercised by > the subscriber; > o (D) specify the methods by which such objections shall > be collected and added to the database; > o (E) prohibit any residential subscriber from being > charged for giving or revoking such notification or for > being included in a database compiled under this > section; > o (F) prohibit any person from making or transmitting a > telephone solicitation to the telephone number of any > subscriber included in such database; > o (G) specify (i) the methods by which any person desiring > to make or transmit telephone solicitations will obtain > access to the database, by area code or local exchange > prefix, as required to avoid calling the telephone > numbers of subscribers included in such database; and > (ii) the costs to be recovered from such persons; > o (H) specify the methods for recovering, from persons > accessing such database, the costs involved in > identifying, collecting, updating, disseminating, and > selling, and other activities relating to, the > operations of the database that are incurred by the > entities carrying out those activities; > o (I) specify the frequency with which such database will > be updated and specify the method by which such updating > will take effect for purposes of compliance with the > regulations prescribed under this subsection; > o (J) be designed to enable States to use the database > mechanism selected by the Commission for purposes of > administering or enforcing State law; > o (K) prohibit the use of such database for any purpose > other than compliance with the requirements of this > section and any such State law and specify methods for > protection of the privacy rights of persons whose > numbers are included in such database; and > o (L) require each common carrier providing services to > any person for the purpose of making telephone > solicitations to notify such person of the requirements > of this section and the regulations thereunder. > + (4) Considerations required for use of database method > > If the Commission determines to require the database > mechanism described in paragraph (3), the Commission shall - > o (A) in developing procedures for gaining access to the > database, consider the different needs of telemarketers > conducting business on a national, regional, State, or > local level; > o (B) develop a fee schedule or price structure for > recouping the cost of such database that recognizes such > differences and - > # (i) reflect the relative costs of providing a > national, regional, State, or local list of phone > numbers of subscribers who object to receiving > telephone solicitations; > # (ii) reflect the relative costs of providing such > lists on paper or electronic media; and > # (iii) not place an unreasonable financial burden on > small businesses; and > o (C) consider (i) whether the needs of telemarketers > operating on a local basis could be met through special > markings of area white pages directories, and (ii) if > such directories are needed as an adjunct to database > lists prepared by area code and local exchange prefix. > + (5) Private right of action > > A person who has received more than one telephone call within > any 12-month period by or on behalf of the same entity in > violation of the regulations prescribed under this subsection > may, if otherwise permitted by the laws or rules of court of > a State bring in an appropriate court of that State - > o (A) an action based on a violation of the regulations > prescribed under this subsection to enjoin such > violation, > o (B) an action to recover for actual monetary loss from > such a violation, or to receive up to $500 in damages > for each such violation, whichever is greater, or > o (C) both such actions. It shall be an affirmative > defense in any action brought under this paragraph that > the defendant has established and implemented, with due > care, reasonable practices and procedures to effectively > prevent telephone solicitations in violation of the > regulations prescribed under this subsection. If the > court finds that the defendant willfully or knowingly > violated the regulations prescribed under this > subsection, the court may, in its discretion, increase > the amount of the award to an amount equal to not more > than 3 times the amount available under subparagraph (B) > of this paragraph. > + (6) Relation to subsection (b) > > The provisions of this subsection shall not be construed to > permit a communication prohibited by subsection (b) of this > section. > * (d) Technical and procedural standards > + (1) Prohibition > > It shall be unlawful for any person within the United States > - > o (A) to initiate any communication using a telephone > facsimile machine, or to make any telephone call using > any automatic telephone dialing system, that does not > comply with the technical and procedural standards > prescribed under this subsection, or to use any > telephone facsimile machine or automatic telephone > dialing system in a manner that does not comply with > such standards; or > o (B) to use a computer or other electronic device to send > any message via a telephone facsimile machine unless > such person clearly marks, in a margin at the top or > bottom of each transmitted page of the message or on the > first page of the transmission, the date and time it is > sent and an identification of the business, other > entity, or individual sending the message and the > telephone number of the sending machine or of such > business, other entity, or individual. > + (2) Telephone facsimile machines > > The Commission shall revise the regulations setting technical > and procedural standards for telephone facsimile machines to > require that any such machine which is manufactured after one > year after December 20, 1991, clearly marks, in a margin at > the top or bottom of each transmitted page or on the first > page of each transmission, the date and time sent, an > identification of the business, other entity, or individual > sending the message, and the telephone number of the sending > machine or of such business, other entity, or individual. > + (3) Artificial or prerecorded voice systems > > The Commission shall prescribe technical and procedural > standards for systems that are used to transmit any > artificial or prerecorded voice message via telephone. Such > standards shall require that - > o (A) all artificial or prerecorded telephone messages (i) > shall, at the beginning of the message, state clearly > the identity of the business, individual, or other > entity initiating the call, and (ii) shall, during or > after the message, state clearly the telephone number or > address of such business, other entity, or individual; > and > o (B) any such system will automatically release the > called party's line within 5 seconds of the time > notification is transmitted to the system that the > called party has hung up, to allow the called party's > line to be used to make or receive other calls. > * (e) Effect on State law > + (1) State law not preempted > > Except for the standards prescribed under subsection (d) of > this section and subject to paragraph (2) of this subsection, > nothing in this section or in the regulations prescribed > under this section shall preempt any State law that imposes > more restrictive intrastate requirements or regulations on, > or which prohibits - > o (A) the use of telephone facsimile machines or other > electronic devices to send unsolicited advertisements; > o (B) the use of automatic telephone dialing systems; > o (C) the use of artificial or prerecorded voice messages; > or > o (D) the making of telephone solicitations. > + (2) State use of databases > > If, pursuant to subsection (c)(3) of this section, the > Commission requires the establishment of a single national > database of telephone numbers of subscribers who object to > receiving telephone solicitations, a State or local authority > may not, in its regulation of telephone solicitations, > require the use of any database, list, or listing system that > does not include the part of such single national datebase > (FOOTNOTE 2) that relates to such State. > > (FOOTNOTE 2) So in original. Probably should be ''database''. > * (f) Actions by States > + (1) Authority of States > > Whenever the attorney general of a State, or an official or > agency designated by a State, has reason to believe that any > person has engaged or is engaging in a pattern or practice of > telephone calls or other transmissions to residents of that > State in violation of this section or the regulations > prescribed under this section, the State may bring a civil > action on behalf of its residents to enjoin such calls, an > action to recover for actual monetary loss or receive $500 in > damages for each violation, or both such actions. If the > court finds the defendant willfully or knowingly violated > such regulations, the court may, in its discretion, increase > the amount of the award to an amount equal to not more than 3 > times the amount available under the preceding sentence. > + (2) Exclusive jurisdiction of Federal courts > > The district courts of the United States, the United States > courts of any territory, and the District Court of the United > States for the District of Columbia shall have exclusive > jurisdiction over all civil actions brought under this > subsection. Upon proper application, such courts shall also > have jurisdiction to issue writs of mandamus, or orders > affording like relief, commanding the defendant to comply > with the provisions of this section or regulations prescribed > under this section, including the requirement that the > defendant take such action as is necessary to remove the > danger of such violation. Upon a proper showing, a permanent > or temporary injunction or restraining order shall be granted > without bond. > + (3) Rights of Commission > > The State shall serve prior written notice of any such civil > action upon the Commission and provide the Commission with a > copy of its complaint, except in any case where such prior > notice is not feasible, in which case the State shall serve > such notice immediately upon instituting such action. The > Commission shall have the right (A) to intervene in the > action, (B) upon so intervening, to be heard on all matters > arising therein, and (C) to file petitions for appeal. > + (4) Venue; service of process > > Any civil action brought under this subsection in a district > court of the United States may be brought in the district > wherein the defendant is found or is an inhabitant or > transacts business or wherein the violation occurred or is > occurring, and process in such cases may be served in any > district in which the defendant is an inhabitant or where the > defendant may be found. > + (5) Investigatory powers > > For purposes of bringing any civil action under this > subsection, nothing in this section shall prevent the > attorney general of a State, or an official or agency > designated by a State, from exercising the powers conferred > on the attorney general or such official by the laws of such > State to conduct investigations or to administer oaths or > affirmations or to compel the attendance of witnesses or the > production of documentary and other evidence. > + (6) Effect on State court proceedings > > Nothing contained in this subsection shall be construed to > prohibit an authorized State official from proceeding in > State court on the basis of an alleged violation of any > general civil or criminal statute of such State. > + (7) Limitation > > Whenever the Commission has instituted a civil action for > violation of regulations prescribed under this section, no > State may, during the pendency of such action instituted by > the Commission, subsequently institute a civil action against > any defendant named in the Commission's complaint for any > violation as alleged in the Commission's complaint. > + (8) ''Attorney general'' defined > > As used in this subsection, the term ''attorney general'' > means the chief legal officer of a State. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > From frissell at panix.com Tue Nov 10 07:19:45 1998 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:19:45 +0800 Subject: Usual Computer Ban Message-ID: <199811101453.JAA28698@mail1.panix.com> >Pentagon Kids Kicked Off Grid >Reuters > >11:47 a.m. 6.Nov.98.PST Two California teenagers who mounted what the Pentagon >called one the most systematic attacks ever made against a US military computer >network were sentenced by a federal judge Thursday. > >US District Judge Maxine Chesney doled out the usual punishment for those convicted >of computer crimes: No more computers. The boys, aged 16 and 17, are barred from >using modems or computers without supervision during their three-year probation. > >The judge forbade the hackers from possessing or using a computer modem, acting as >computer consultants, or having any contact with computers out of sight of "a school >teacher, librarian, employer, or other person approved by the probation officer." Usual laugh. Not technically feasible to mount this sort of Denial of Service attack unless you actually imprison them. Computers and connections are a bit too ubiquitous. DCF From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 10 07:29:56 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:29:56 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100539.XAA16120@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 8:24 AM -0500 on 11/10/98, Frank O'Dwyer wrote: > There's even some research on attacks > that simply delay packets in such networks. Right. In the movie "The Sting", they called this con "The Wire". :-). Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 10 07:51:23 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:51:23 +0800 Subject: American Banker article on DigiCash bankruptcy Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:36:45 -0500 To: Digital Bearer Settlement List From: Robert Hettinga Subject: American Banker article on DigiCash bankruptcy Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ --- begin forwarded text Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:23:36 +0100 (MET) From: Somebody To: rah at shipwright.com Subject: American Banker article on DigiCash bankruptcy From: Somebody Else To: Somebody Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:41:36 -0500 , This is the American Banker article on the subject: Digital Frontiers Tuesday, November 10, 1998 Electronic Commerce: Bankrupt Digicash to Seek Financing, New Allies By Jeffrey Kutler & Carol Power Digicash Inc., which invented a virtual cash concept for the Internet, now must reinvent itself. With the announcement last week that it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, Digicash has embarked on yet another phase of a corporate saga that has won it acclaim and admiration in both the banking and Internet communities -- but precious little business. Shielded for the moment from creditor pressures, the Palo Alto, Calif., company will attempt to find the financing and forge the strategic relationships it needs to widen the appeal of its eCash product, said interim chief executive officer Scott Loftesness. The company also has a significant "intellectual property portfolio," he said, that could prove useful in other applications requiring privacy and anonymity, such as electronic voting. Mr. Loftesness indicated that Digicash has never exploited the full potential of its patents to generate licensing income, which now might help turn the operation around. Bankruptcy is but the latest of many turns for an eight-year-old venture created by David Chaum, a former University of California professor and expert on data encryption who was among the first to see a need for a cash-like payment mechanism on open networks. The design of eCash and its anonymity principles attracted widespread attention in 1994 and 1995 as banks and other corporations began exploring the Internet's commercial potential. Through a series of consulting projects and demonstrations, Digicash came close to assembling a network of banks to issue and manage the virtual currency. But the licensee group -- including Deutsche Bank, Den Norske Bank, Bank Austria, Advance Bank of Australia, and Mark Twain Bank of St. Louis -- never got beyond pilot stages. Things were looking up in 1997 when Digicash attracted venture capital interest from, among others, David Marquardt of August Capital, who was an early backer of Microsoft Corp. Digicash also reconstituted its board with Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Nicholas Negroponte as chairman, and hired "professional management" led by CEO Michael Nash, a former American Express Co. and Visa International executive. Mr. Chaum remained as chief technology officer. The headquarters was moved from Mr. Chaum's base in Amsterdam to Silicon Valley. Many in the banking technology world took positive note of the fact that in June 1998, former Wells Fargo & Co. president William Zuendt joined Mr. Negroponte, Mr. Marquardt, Mr. Chaum, Toon den Heijer of Gilde Investment Funds, and others on the board. This past August, Mr. Nash was succeeded by Mr. Loftesness, who also has Visa in his background. The part of the operation that remained in Amsterdam was closed, and the staff was cut significantly from its peak of about 50. Mr. Loftesness said last week that he intends to see the Chapter 11 process through. He described eCash as "important and inevitable" for the maturity of electronic commerce. Throughout its struggles to prove it was not too far ahead of its time, Digicash has been followed closely by analysts and treated seriously by competitors. Many were impressed by the technology's cash-like anonymity and an accountability system that prevents any of the virtual coins from being spent twice, yet without compromising personal privacy. "There is a great lesson in it," said Richard Crone, vice president of Cybercash Inc. and general manager of PayNow, its version of an electronic check. "You must match the payment type to the application that is being sold." He called Digicash "a payment type in search of an application, rather than an application in search of a payment." So far in Internet consumer payments, particularly in the United States, credit cards have won the day. "We've done such a good job deploying credit cards and reassuring consumers that the security is present," Mr. Crone said, that there is no compelling need for eCash. (Cybercash's cybercoin product ran up against the same reality, but the Reston, Va., company is active in several payment modes, including credit cards.) Cybercash's inroads in markets outside the United States with lower credit card penetration -- Germany, Japan, the United Kingdom -- were due to financial institution partners, Mr. Crone said. "Digicash did not have the support we did." David Stewart, vice president of Global Concepts Inc., Norcross, Ga., criticized Digicash for not bridging the physical and virtual worlds. He said as currently configured, eCash compares unfavorably with MasterCard International's Mondex venture, the Belgium-based Proton system, or Avant of Finland, which are smart cards with an Internet transmission component. Because eCash "needed on-line validation of tokens spent, clearing of the transactions required authorization like a credit card," Mr. Stewart said. Another strike against eCash, he said, was the lack of major financial institution support in the United States, where there are constituencies for Mondex, Visa International's Visa Cash, and Proton, which is part-owned by Visa and American Express Co. "Digicash needs to come up with an off-line electronic cash scheme and have the backing of a serious player in the payments world," Mr. Stewart said. The one U.S. participant, Mark Twain Bank, was acquired by Mercantile Bancorp. of St. Louis 20 months ago. Larry Kirschner, Mercantile Bank senior vice president of foreign exchange, said eCash "was not profitable from the moment we inherited it. "We tried to figure out how to make it profitable and for it to appeal to our corporate and retail customers, to very little success," he said. The bank ended its three-year experiment in September. It had 5,000 eCash customers, about 20% of them in Mercantile's eight-state Midwest territory and the rest on the two coasts. They held "significantly less" than $100,000 in eCash accounts, Mr. Kirschner said. "We didn't see a strategic fit for eCash," he said. "The revenue stream was not there, the demand was not there, and quite frankly, it wasn't going to be there." The banker said eCash suffered because the public "did not have any insecurity and did use their credit cards on the Internet." But Mr. Loftesness said Digicash's board and backers have not lost faith that "eCash is inevitable. The length of time and the amount of financing to get there remain the key open questions." --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From guy at panix.com Tue Nov 10 07:53:58 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:53:58 +0800 Subject: Guy, anti-copyright hacker (Re: Advertising Creepiness) Message-ID: <199811101523.KAA05690@panix7.panix.com> > From: Adam Back > > Information Security writes: > > Declan writes: > > > Willfully redistributing copyrighted material in violation of fair > > > use principles is, depending on the value, also a federal > > > crime. Redistributing a $1 article to thousands of people would be > > > a felony. (Note I don't endorse this law, but it's useful to know > > > what the law is.) > > > > I guess that qualifies as a request for more color. > > > > In the local Panix Usenet groups, I've reposted quite a few whole articles, > > often from the IP list. > > > > Finally, a couple people made a stink, and officially complained to Panix. > > > > [snip panix owner backing down and not interfering with Guy's posts of > > whole supposedly copyrighted material] > > Nice one Guy! > > The zen approach, it reminds me of a tactic to do with USENET cancel > forgeries used by a recentish poster to this list who you made much > a-do about being a terminator of. Ugh, um, ...but he was a nutter, unlike me. ;-) The other half of the reason I chose the IP list is because of my dislike of its owner, nutter Michele Moore. She is trying to profit from a book claiming various government agencies knew full well the OK Murrah building was going to be blown up, and purposely did nothing. Trying to profit from other's misery. (At least my nutter anti-ECHELON "Cryptography Manifesto" is free.) She also terminated my list subscription when I made a single post asking for people not to make homophobic posts. She was 100% unforgiving on this, even though I promised not to make such a post again. She described the homophobic posts as "Christian". (This was around the time Pat Robertson made comments about Florida's Disney being hit by God with hurricanes because of its "gay days" promotion.) It's also a very high-volume list, and I recently asked her about posting about car antennas... # From believer at telepath.com Fri Oct 30 06:47:36 1998 # To: Information Security # Subject: Re: IP: New Radio Antennas May Cool Car Interior, Defrost Car Windows # # Dear Guy: # # Regarding: # >What does this have to do with IP's charter? # >---guy # # Once again, as you are a non-subscriber receiving posts by forwarding # (which is fine), it's none of your business. Enjoy the posts that you # receive, feel free to forward them wherever you wish, but please do not # contact me again for any reason. Bitch. > > Then, the Digital Copyright Massive Federal Interference Act... > > > > > Fair Use vs. Intellectual Property: The U.S. Congress > > > passed the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, a bill designed to > > > distinguish between fair use and protected intellectual property > > > in cyberspace. > > > > > > > > > > I chose the IP list as the next-level test case... > > I'm curious ... how have you faired since the millenium copyright act > with panix? Any results? Or is this still on-going? I've been snipping down articles a bit since then. As far as I know, no one has complained about my posts relative to the new law. ---guy From howree at cable.navy.mil Tue Nov 10 08:17:40 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:17:40 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100252.UAA15446@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111012502.0085b210@205.83.192.13> At 08:52 PM 11/9/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:23:20 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone >> (fwd) > >> Usualy !=3D Correctly. >> >> Take tomatoes. Perfectly legal (AFAIK) everywhere, here in this >> country a 5 year old child can buy a tomato from a farmer with a stand on >> the side of the road. >> >> If you go back 10 years, and if "this country" was the soviet >> union, a tomato purchased from the wrong person could get you in trouble. > >So what are saying...that because any government ever happened to abuse its >citizens in a particular way is justification to do away with all >government? > >This is a strawman. I think there may be a finer distiction- it lies in corruption of the enforcing body. A tomato purchased on the black market is significant of a) a seller with goods b) a buyer with money c) a buyer who can be fined for making purchases on the black market because they obviously have money. This is the same sort of tactic imho as the war on drugs(tm). Big show, little enforcement, extract money from the money holders. Money exchanges = leniency. --snip-- >> I still maintain that as one moves closer to a completely free >> market, there is less and less of a black market, and to be the extrememe >> case of a free market, there would be the potential to trade in both human >> lives, and in stolen property. > >Well, at least you're an honest eco-anarchist. And how do you propose to stop >this sort of behaviour (it's clear that there is a market whether the >economy is free-market or not) without some sort of 3rd party arbiter (call >it government or not is irrelevant to the point)? Aside from the comment on honesty, the rest of this reply is sophistry. Petro was asserting a point, which Jim acknowledged, then procedes to assassinate with particulars of questionable relevance. In a true anarchy, who is to say that trade in human lives and stolen property must be stopped in that "true free market"??? >> In a free market, the selling of stolen >> goods might not be a crime in and of itself, but the posession of those >> things could be, > >How the hell do you sell something on the black market if you don't have >possession of it? And exactly who is going to prosecute anyone for >possession? Since we've done away with laws governing economics and trade >there isn't even a court to try the perps in if we did apprehend them >ourselves. I smell straw man. A reseller is not necessarily a "possessor". By virtue of this loophole in existing law (which *could* become the rule de jour), many items are offered for sale, which are not necessarily legal to "possess". Don't say name "one", 'cuz I already have it in mind. Does a black marketeer qualify as a "reseller"??? DamnIfyno. Is there a precedent that would by honored in a society such as the hypothetical one being discussed??? DamnIfyno again. But it is an interesting question, I think. Most likely is that "protection monies" would get paid, the purchaser arrested on his way _away_ from the *shop* where the purchase was made. Reeza! If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 09:04:46 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:04:46 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101623.KAA18748@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:28:10 -0500 > From: Soren > Subject: Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > I used to be an anarcho-capitalist, but concluded I was far too selfish. In fact, if > you'd read the first line about the libertarian compromize, rather than looking for > hooks, you'd see that I was attempting rapprochement. Mostly I'm not at all > interested in being drawn into political wastings of energy, life is too short. I > made my choice 25 years ago, and have been (largely) free and untaxed for that time. > Harry Browne's "How I found freedom in an unfree world" came along at about the same > time I cut loose from the nation-state. You're speaking of federal taxes, or you don't own property in your own name. I suppose you wouldn't call the fire dept. if your house caught on fire since you don't pay taxes. You wouldn't call the police if there was a problem either. > Why the pejorative use of "anarcho-whatever" and the whole personal level at which you > pitch your responses? Is it your intent to stir up anger by using imflammatory > rhetoric? No, my intent in wording is to get at the core of what is being proposed. A characteristic of anarcho-whatever and lawyers is they never say what they mean. If they did very few would give them the attention they get now. > Or (more likely) is this an example of newspeak? Whatever, it comes across > as mean-spirited and sad. An indicator perhaps, of someone who loves to "go for the > jugular". A common "small man" trait. Are you a small man Jim? Do you need the power > of the state to make you feel big by proxy? IROFL. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From howree at cable.navy.mil Tue Nov 10 09:09:53 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:09:53 +0800 Subject: an odd one at pub.anonymizer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111021629.007b8460@205.83.192.13> At 10:47 PM 11/9/98 -0800, Quirk wrote: > >--mark-- >-hedges- reviews http://pub.anonymizer.com/~lcchrist > >The National Socialist Church of Christ espouses a turning away from the >old era figuring Hitler and the current Destruction of the Earth Part II >as the antichrist ending the cycle of Pisces. In the next phase of polar --snip-- Your prose panders to others of your mindset, but you are all mistaken. --begin pasted text-- It is a Christian belief that life and immortality were brought to light, and death, the last enemy, was destroyed by a personal Jesus only 2,000 years ago. The very same revelation had been accredited to Horus (a major egyptian god), the anointed, at least 3,000 years before. Horus, as the impersonal and ideal revealer, was the Messiah in the astronomical mythology and the Son of God in the eschatology. The doctrine of immortality is so ancient in Egypt that the "Book of Vivifying the Soul Forever" was not only extant in the time of the First Dynasty but was then so old that the true tradition of interpretation was at that time already lost. The Egyptian Horus, as revealer of immortality, was the ideal figure of the ancient spritualists that the soul of man, or the Manes, persisted beyond death and the dissolution of the present body. The Origin and Evolution We find, depicted on stones in many countries where the Stellar Cult people migrated, remains of the old Astronomical religion which proves their perfect knowledge of the revolutions of the Starry Vast and the Laws governing these revolutions, all of which they imaged iconographically or by Signs and Symbols. And where they have not built Pyramids they have recorded the truth in the so-called "Cups and Rings" and "curious carvings" found on boulders, cist-covers, on living rock, and on standing stones throughout the British Isles, Europe, Asia, Africa, and other parts of the world - which hitherto have been deemed to involve insoluble problems and have been to all our learned professors an outstanding puzzle in pre-historic research. But they are easily read, and the secrets are unfolded in the Sign Language of the Astronomical, or Stellar Cult Religion of the Ancient Egyptians. The mutilation of Osiris in his coffin, the stripping of his corpse and tearing it asunder by Set, who scattered it piecemeal, has its equivalent by the stripping of the dead body of Jesus whilst it still hung upon the Cross, and parting the garments amongst the spoilers. In St. John's account the crucifixion takes place at the time of the Passover, and the victim of sacrifice in human form is substituted for, and identified with, the Paschal Lamb. But, as this version further shows, the death assigned is in keeping with that of the non-human victim. Not a bone of the sufferer to be broken. This is supposed to be in fulfilment of prophecy. It is said by the Psalmist (34:20): "He keepeth all His bones; not one of them is broken". But this was in strict accordance with the original law of Tabu. No matter what the type, from bear to lamb, no bone of the sacrificial victim was ever permitted to be broken; and the only change was in the substitution of the human type for the animal, which had been made already when human Horus became the type of sacrifice instead of the calf or lamb. When the Australian natives sacrificed their little bear, not a bone of it was ever broken. When the Iroquois sacrificed the white dog, not a bone was broken. This was a common custom, on account of the resurrection as conceived by the primitive races, and the same is applied to Osiris-Horus. Every bone of the skeleton was to remain intact as a basis for the future building. It is an utterance of the Truth that is eternal to say that Horus as the Son of God had previously been all the Gospel Jesus is made to say his is, or is to become: Horus and the Father are one; *Jesus says, "I and my Father are one". He that seeth Me, seeth Him that sent me". *Horus is the Father seen in the Son. *Jesus claims to be the Son in whom the Father is revealed. *Horus was the light of the world, the light that is represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation. *Jesus is made to declare that He is the light of the world. *Horus was the way, the truth, the life by name and in person. *Jesus is made to assert that he is the way, the truth, and the life. *Horus was the plant, the shoot, the natzar. *Jesus is made to say: "I am the true vine". *Horus says: "It is I who traverse the heaven; I go around the Sekhet-Arru (the Elysian Fields); Eternity has been assigned to me without end. Lo! I am heir of endless time and my attribute is eternity". *Jesus says: "I am come down from Heaven. For this is the will of the Father that everyone who beholdeth the Son and believeth in Him should have eternal life, and I willl raise him up at the last day" He, too, claims to be the lord of eternity. *Horus says: "I open the Tuat that I may drive away the darkness" *Jesus says: "I am come a light unto the world." *Horus says: (I am equipped with thy words O Ra (the father in heaven)(ch.32) and repeat them to those who are deprived of breath. (ch.38). These were the words of the father in heaven. *Jesus says: "The Father which sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. Whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me". A comparative list of some pre-existing types to Christianity shows further how these types were brought on in the canonical Gospels and the Book of Revelation: *Horus baptized with water by Anup = Jesus baptized with water by John. *Aan, a name of the divine scribe = John the divine scribe. *Horus born in Annu, the place of bread = Jesus born in Bethlehem, the house of bread *Horus the Good Shepherd with the crook upon his shoulders = Jesus the Good Shepherd with the lamb or kid upon his shoulder *The Seven on board the boat with Horus = The seven fishers on board the boat with Jesus *Horus as the Lamb = Jesus as the Lamb. *Horus as the Lion = Jesus as the Lion *Horus identified with the Tat or Cross = Jesus identified with the Cross *Horus of twelve years = Jusus of twelve years *Horus made a man of thirty years in his baptism = Jesus made a man of thirty years in his baptism *Horus the Krst = Jesus the Christ *Horus the manifesting Son of God = Jesus the manifesting Son of God * The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, and Ra the Holy Spirit = The trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. *The first Horus as child of the Virgin, the second as Son of Ra = Jesus as the Virgin's child, the Christ as Son of the Father. *Horus the sower and Set the destroyer in the harvestfield = Jesus the sower of the good seed and Satan the sower of tares. *Horus carried of by Set to the summit of Mount Hetep = Jesus spirited away by Satan into an exceedingly high mountain *Set and Horus contending on the Mount = Jesus and Satan contending on the Mount. *Horus as Iu-em-Hetep, the child teacher in the temple = The child Jesus as teacher in the Temple * The mummy bandage that was woven without seam = The vesture of the Christ without a seam. *Twelve followers of Horus as Har-Khutti = Twelve followers of Jesus as the twelve disciples. -Excerpt from Churchwar's book "Of Religion", first published 1924. Reprints are available from Health Research, Mokelumne Hills, CA 95245. Churchware was a student of the British poet and Egyptologist Gerald Massey. - -- end pasted text-- In conclusion, GO AWAY. Reeza! If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 09:20:30 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:20:30 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811101638.KAA18839@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:25:02 +1000 > From: Reeza! > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the > Foregone (fwd) > I think there may be a finer distiction- it lies in corruption of the > enforcing body. Your right, let me spell it out. Free-markets as depicted by anarcho-whatever theories legitimize theft, physical violence, extortion, etc. They further a priori abandon any precept of social institution and leave it all on the shoulder of the individuals. Additionaly they abandon such concepts of justice, equity, etc. because they describe no mechanism to handle these issues. And finaly, they don't even attempt to recognize the international interactions and cultural differences that drive them. They make the same mistake as every other form of non-democratic system, they assume because it works for one it works for all. > This is the same sort of tactic imho as the war on drugs(tm). Big show, > little enforcement, extract money from the money holders. Money exchanges = > leniency. Not even hardly. At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy. Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're willing to fund a bigger gun. > Aside from the comment on honesty, the rest of this reply is sophistry. > Petro was asserting a point, which Jim acknowledged, then procedes to > assassinate with particulars of questionable relevance. In a true anarchy, > who is to say that trade in human lives and stolen property must be stopped > in that "true free market"??? Ask the humans who are being traided or the peson the property was stolen from. I'm going to stop now, this particular vein of discussion is bereft of any and all positive attributes when one tries to justify slavery and theft. Like I said, at least your more honest than the rest of these wanna-be thieves. You might want to see doctor about that hole you shot in your foot while it was in your mouth. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From stuffed at stuffed.net Wed Nov 11 01:23:38 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED WED NOV 11) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:23:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 10 09:40:00 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:40:00 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100252.UAA15446@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 9:52 PM -0500 11/9/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: >> Usualy !=3D Correctly. >> Take tomatoes. Perfectly legal (AFAIK) everywhere, here in this >> country a 5 year old child can buy a tomato from a farmer with a stand on >> the side of the road. >> If you go back 10 years, and if "this country" was the soviet >> union, a tomato purchased from the wrong person could get you in trouble. >So what are saying...that because any government ever happened to abuse its >citizens in a particular way is justification to do away with all >government? No, I am saying that since EVERY government at one time or another treats its citizens like roaches, it's time to radically change the nature of it so that it basically can't be called a government any more. >> This is true in this coutry. Licquor is legal if purchased thru the >> approved store. >> >> Try selling the same thing out of the back of your truck. >> >> It is the product, or how the product is sold. > >Well actualy it's whether it has a tax stamp whether you sell it out of a >storefront or a truckbed is irrelevent. Considering the number of people who Wanna bet? Most states have fairly strict laws concerning where liquor can be sold. >died in the late 1800's and early 1900's because of moonshine liquor from >contaminated stills that were unregulated (where were those fine upstanding >ethical considerate eco-anarchists then?) it's probably a good thing that >it's illegal to sell untaxed and therefore anonymous alcohol. Which is completely irrelevant as to wheter or not it is currently black market or not, which is the context I was working in. Stay on target. >> So take ampthetimines (well, don't take them, but take the case of >> them), if I get them from Joe Random Drug Dealer, it's black Market, if I >> get them from Paul the Doctor, it's "white" market. > >Not necessarily. The doctor has to have a medicaly supportable reason to >dispence those drugs. Otherwise it's just as black market as Joe's. Quibble Quibble. You know EXACTLY what I meant. >> I didn't think of theft when I wrote the above, and I don't usually > >Didn't think of theft? Jesus H. Christ, you gotta be on Joe's drugs. The >vast majority of material sold on *ANY* black market is stolen from its >rightful owner. It is *the* example of black market trading that most folks >think of first. No, the vast majority (in terms of dollars) of stuff sold on the black market is Drugs. >> I still maintain that as one moves closer to a completely free >> market, there is less and less of a black market, and to be the extrememe >> case of a free market, there would be the potential to trade in both human >> lives, and in stolen property. > >Well, at least you're an honest eco-anarchist. And how do you propose to stop >this sort of behaviour (it's clear that there is a market whether the >economy is free-market or not) without some sort of 3rd party arbiter (call >it government or not is irrelevant to the point)? Treat theft like any other economic activity, and figure out how to make it unprofitable. >> In a free market, the selling of stolen >> goods might not be a crime in and of itself, but the posession of those >> things could be, > >How the hell do you sell something on the black market if you don't have >possession of it? And exactly who is going to prosecute anyone for Easy, it's called a Con. Seriously tho, I said that the _selling_ of stolen goods might not be illegal, but the possesion of such things, and the stealing of them are seperate acts to the selling of them. One can be illegal with out the others being illegal. >possession? Since we've done away with laws governing economics and trade >there isn't even a court to try the perps in if we did apprehend them >ourselves. There isn't a need to. Shoot them. Also, a negligably regulated market doesn't necessarily mean that there are no laws, there are many, many activities that are proscribed by law which have little or nothing to do with economics. > and the aquireing would be, as well, the _hiring_ of an >> assassin might be legal, as long as no killing took place. When it does, >> you hang the assassin on murder, and the hirer on conspiracy, aiding and >> abetting or whatever, and stick them in the same cell. > >Huh? Who is doing all this arresting and writing of laws, and building >jails, and staffing prisons, or hiring hangmen? Good point, guess we'll either have to kill them outright, or start cutting off fingers. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 10 09:49:32 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:49:32 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100403.WAA15755@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 11:03 PM -0500 11/9/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: >> Prove it. Prove that in a competitive market certain goods and >> services will be MORE expensive than in a Government-as-Supplier. > >Ok. Let's use the example of fire stations and insurance companies that came >up earlier. > >What do you suppose the impact on the bottem line will be by increasing the >amount of non-income-producing-services that such a situation would require? >Each insurance company would be responsible for many, many stations Really, you are saying they couldn't possibly recognize the benefits of teaming up and co-locating fire stations, or that they wouldn't sub-contract to a company that handled fires? >scattered all over the country. This means some sort of centralized >mechanism to create policies and other procedures and their requisite costs. >Now, consider what that means to the payment each policy holder is going to >have to deal with. It's going to be large because it's going to have to take >up for parts of the company that don't bring in policy income but still >require service coverage. This could still be more effcient than government. >Now by distributing this system out and assigning it to governments and >providing equitable service to all, no questions asked they're there we, we >get a system that is reasonable in cost and provides good responce. "reasonable" in cost? There is a LOT if inefficiency in the system that competition could eliminate. >> How many Corporations you know buy $300 hammers, or $1000 toilet >> seats? > >Lot's of them throw good money after bad. All businesses do. It's human >nature. I know of one company that got so carried away with spending for >little dribbles and drips that they ended up having to stop hiring new >employees that the company desperately needs. I used to work for one, >Compu-Add, that led to its final demise. Read that last bit. They got so carried away, that they spent themselves out of existence. Governments just raise taxes, there is no penalty for ineffcientcy, or lousy spelling. >> >capitalist shouldn't begrudge a tidy profit anyone under any situation. >> I don't begrudge a profit where it's due. Bill Clinton isn't due. >> Neither is Newt Gingrinch, or any other Feeding at the government trough >> pig. >Agreed. But the solution is term limits on Congress-critters and a >re-vamping of some critical laws. Ok, so you limit the senators and congressmen, then the unelected beaureacrats have the power since they know the system and run the system. >> No, the problem is the police. To quote (IIRC) Lydia Lunch: >> >> "Neo Nazis with night stick dicks, no brains but banging into yours >> in the middle of the night looking for whatever don't fit in with their >> ideologically unsound version of reality". > >Well I happen to come from that sub-culture so I can speak from experience. >The majority of times I or my friends were hassled we were asking for it. Well, coming from that subculture, and living in areas that allowed me to observer others, I'd say bullshit. Wearing a painted leather jacket & ripped up blue jeans is NOT a reason to get hauled off the street, searched and questioned. Looking different is not illegal. Thinking different is not illegal. >> >That process *is* most certainly an ideal place to inject consideration and >> >respect for civil liberties and the purvue of government institutions. >> Oh, and that has been working OH SO WELL thus far. >No, and that's my point. >> No I don't. but check the numbers, there is a $6000 LESS collected >> in road taxes (average) PER CAR for each car in america. That $6k comes out >> of my pockets as well, > >How the hell do you figure that one? It may come out of YOUR state taxes but >it certainly doesn't come out of mine (I don't have state taxes). The funds >for road and such is collected solely through gasoline and auto related >sales taxes in Texas. With a bunch thrown in at the federal level. Federal Matching Funds & etc. >Perhaps you should fix your state government... Federal, State, County, and City. >Now if you're talking about the federal taxes for roads, that has NOTHING to >do with your or my driving vehicles on those roads. It has to do with a >program implimented in the early 20th century to create a good road net in >the US for military use. The taxes are justified in principle, if not in >amount, through commen defense. Then why do they keep building them? >> If that is the interpretation, then the document is morally flawed. >Interpeted? >We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, >establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common >defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to >ourselves and our Posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution for the >United States of America. Promote != provide. Promote does not mean "give away", it means "promote", do things which incourage. >> How many died at the hands of Stalin, Hitler. and other dictators? > >A lot more than at the hand of honest people, which is my point as well. >These were people, not governments. The citizens willingness to participate >aided and abetted each and every one of them and weakens your use of them in >your defence. They were the heads of the governments. The skills and abilities it takes to get to that level insure that the people who get there have no concern for those underneath them. >> The state, whether here in the US, or in other countries tends to >> treat the humans that comprise it with little concern for their health or >> livelyhood, >Yep, I see lots of that every day. In one hand you complain about welfare >and then in the other claim that the state is uncaring. Can you please make >up your mind? There is no making up my mind. I never claimed the a government could or should, rather I am claiming that it can't and won't, and to expect it to be able to, much less willing to is foolish. >> If you have citizens that are honest, principled, and willing to >> assist those around them, you have no need for a "state". >If your process relies on this it's doomed from the get go. This ain't >Vulcan. So we agree that any government is doomed from the start, since w/out people of honesty and integrity no system will work properly. >> Without honesty and principles you have Slick Willy. >And Bubba next door as well as that face that stares out at you every >morning. No, that face that stares back from the mirror makes every effort to be as honest and forthright as it can. It causes grief sometimes, but it's the principle. >> There are 1.7 million people struck by lightning every year? >There aren't 1.7M poeple killed in the US by the LEA's. That would be about >1-in-150. There are several hundred people killed by lightening each year in >the US. The number of people killed in activity complicent with LEA's is >probably not a great deal (at most an order of magnitude) over that. That 1.7 million is the estimated people who have been killed this century (170 million) in wars and murdered by governments divided by the number of years in a century (100) which would give 1.7 million, or is my math getting that bad? I don't see why I should limit my comments on the nature of government to what I see in this country as there is a wealth of other experience outside our borders. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 10 11:17:09 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:17:09 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101638.KAA18839@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 11:38 AM -0500 11/10/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:25:02 +1000 >> From: Reeza! >> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the >> Foregone (fwd) > >> I think there may be a finer distiction- it lies in corruption of the >> enforcing body. > >Your right, let me spell it out. Free-markets as depicted by >anarcho-whatever theories legitimize theft, physical violence, extortion, >etc. They further a priori abandon any precept of social institution and Theft, violence and extortion are already legitimate, not only does the government use them all the time, but corporations and indivuduals do as well. >leave it all on the shoulder of the individuals. Additionaly they abandon >such concepts of justice, equity, etc. because they describe no mechanism There is no (or little) justice under the current system. When was the last time a cop went to jail for a murder that he/she committed while on duty. Is OJ behind bars? We have courts of Law, Justice is ashamed to show her face. >to handle these issues. And finaly, they don't even attempt to recognize >the international interactions and cultural differences that drive them. We recognize that these interactions exist, but guess what, for any sort of anarchy to exist, it has to happen globally. We are as concerned about the people on the other side of the planet as we are about the people in the next city over. Just not much. >They make the same mistake as every other form of non-democratic system, >they assume because it works for one it works for all. No, we assume the opposite, that nothing works for large numbers of people, and everyone should be free to find their own level. >> This is the same sort of tactic imho as the war on drugs(tm). Big show, >> little enforcement, extract money from the money holders. Money exchanges = >> leniency. > >Not even hardly. At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy. >Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're >willing to fund a bigger gun. Riiiighhht. Tell that to Californians who decided that Marjuana should be part of Doctors tool kit, and the Feds said "prescribe it and loose your lisence to prescribe". >> Aside from the comment on honesty, the rest of this reply is sophistry. >> Petro was asserting a point, which Jim acknowledged, then procedes to >> assassinate with particulars of questionable relevance. In a true anarchy, >> who is to say that trade in human lives and stolen property must be stopped >> in that "true free market"??? >I'm going to stop now, this particular vein of discussion is bereft of any >and all positive attributes when one tries to justify slavery and theft. He was just taking into account different cultural differences. Some cultures don't have a problem with slavery. Personally, given a lack of law enforcement, I'd shoot the bastards, but then I never claimed to be tolerant of other peoples cultures. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From jvb at ssds.com Tue Nov 10 12:06:08 1998 From: jvb at ssds.com (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:06:08 +0800 Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100027.AAA07402@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Adam Back wrote: > > Christopher Petro writes: > > In other words Jim, Fuck You. I, and I'd bet most people here, Don't split hairs, Petro. Tell us what you really think. ;-) > > including Mr. May, are perfectly willing, and hell even eager to pay their > > share, to assume their social responcibility, they just get very, very > > angry at having to pay OTHER peoples social responcibility, and get very, > > very angry at having to pay for other shit (Senate Luncheons and Swimming > > Pools, the Militaries greatly inflated budget, all the waste that is todays > > federal government). > > What is annoying is "charity" (social security) at the point of a gun. > Our "conscience" is being decided by government which is acting as a > broker for those lobby for their "need" and for your assets to be > stolen and redistributed to them. > (1) Social transfer payments at the point of a gun are involuntary compassion. (2) Involutary compassion is usually called rape. You are forcing me to "love" some other person. To adopt them not only as a proxy family member, but as one that cannot be "cutoff" if they waste my charity. Of course I must not only pay for them, but I must pay for the bureaucrat that manages this family member. Combine this with the US Govt defining a sex life as a "right" (witness free Viagra) and you come up with some pretty chilling scenarios. (do people have the "right" to a sex partner?) Apparently involuntary compassion at gunpoint is not beyond justification by the US fed govt and the propagandized sheeple. Whats to stop rape of selected human beings by agents of the federal government? (ok, maybe thats going a little too far Rape by proxy, thats the federal government for you. jim From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 10 12:06:10 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:06:10 +0800 Subject: NPR is at it again... Message-ID: Some commie law professor broad :-) is talking about how there oughtta be a law against anonymous remailers, deja news, and various forms of "illegal" email... The ganglia twitch... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jadler at soundcode.com Tue Nov 10 12:23:09 1998 From: jadler at soundcode.com (Jim Adler) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:23:09 +0800 Subject: Locking physical memory (RAM) under Windows Message-ID: <001201be0cdf$9a045c90$0a000080@choochoo> SCNSM 1.0 Beta, a non-swappable memory allocator for Windows 3.x/95/98, is available and can be downloaded from http://soundcode.com/content/download/products/scnsm/default.htm (docs) http://soundcode.com/content/download/products/scnsm/scnsm10b.zip (source) The SCNSM driver supports allocation of non-swappable memory on Windows 3.x/95/98. The principal design goal of SCNSM is to provide memory that will not be swapped to disk, under any circumstances. Typically, security applications require such memory to store private keys, passwords, and sensitive intermediate results of cryptographic calculations. SCNSM uses the same technique as allocating DMA buffers for hardware device transfers. The idea being that Windows doesn't swap DMA buffers and therefore won't swap this buffer either. The SCNSM source-code is copyrighted freeware. The intent here is to end the perennial nuisance of having sensitive security data swapped to disk which undermines the public's confidence in commercial security products. Please send any questions or bugs to me or support at soundcode.com. Jim ================ Jim Adler Soundcode, Inc. www.soundcode.com From vznuri at netcom.com Tue Nov 10 13:21:30 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:21:30 +0800 Subject: NPR is at it again... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811102041.MAA14945@netcom13.netcom.com> >Some commie law professor broad :-) is talking about how there oughtta be a >law against anonymous remailers, deja news, and various forms of "illegal" >email... >The ganglia twitch... like hotmail and yahoo mail??? these are *awesome* remailers. I picked up a yahoo mail account recently and am blown away with all the *FEATURES*!! separate folders, filtering, external mailboxes support through POP, binary attachments, my gosh!!!!! my cup runneth over, for free, TOTALLY ANONYMOUS check it out cpunks, a cpunk wet dream!! trust me on this one, it's not going away. it's a LUCRATIVE business worth millions a year. there was a recent conference under a year ago (or more, maybe I can't remember) by the AAAS (am. assoc. adv. science) on anonymity with academics/papers/talks and everything. did anyone check that out? do they have a web page??? and stop twitching your ganglia, it's really creepy!!! From mah248 at nyu.edu Tue Nov 10 13:27:16 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:27:16 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101334.HAA17420@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3648AA84.55E32DEB@nyu.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > > Explain how the system works. Explain how the various systems operate, how > the costs are calculated, and how they're paid. I want to see the same level > of *specificity* that I and others have agreed to provide you in our > examples. Do you have any idea what you're asking for? Quite frankly, I do not have the time (nor the space) to explain to you, in detail, how an entire civilization operates. In fact, any attempt by me to explain such a system would fail, since there are doubtless many innovations which specialists in the respective fields would make, and there are many more which have already been made, which I am not necessarilly aware of. I have already offered you explainations of how some systems might operate --the fire dept./insurance company situation, for example. That was in the sections you snipped for not answering "any questions that have been posed". I suggest you go back and read them, if you missed it the first time. I can, however, direct you to a book which deals with the subject in some detail. It's called "The Market for Liberty", by an author who's name eludes me at the moment. If you're really interested in the answers to your above questions, I suggest you go read it. If you need the name of the author to find it, I'm sure I can look it up for you and give it to you within a day or so. > We want an answer not some glib off the shoulder quip. As I said, read the part of my previous post that you didn't bother to address. > [I'm deleting the rest of this since it doesn't answer any questions that > have been posed to the anarcho-whatever side] > Then you haven't been reading very closely. Michael Hohensee From mah248 at nyu.edu Tue Nov 10 14:02:59 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:02:59 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101323.HAA17131@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3648B194.AB83423C@nyu.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:08:11 -0500 > > From: Soren > > Subject: Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > > >

This also provides an outlet for the social do-gooders to create their > > utopias by vastly inflating those taxes associated with less favored consumables > > Hm, interesting choice of terms for comparison. So you're admitting that > anarcho-whatever isn't a social do-gooder, the intent is not to make the > system better or more equitable. No, the intent *is* to make the system better and more equitable. It's just that we don't favor the socialist definition of "equitable". We support voluntary systems, not coercive ones. > Rather you're admitting, apparently > tacitly, that the goal of the anarcho-whatever is personal rather than > social improvement. There is also a further tacit admission with this > system won't address the social ills that plague us currently. Except that it's personal improvement for *everyone* (except for tyrants and other politicans, but we didn't like them much anyway). > I must admit I'm impressed. In a couple of days I've run across two seperate > anarcho-whatever supporters who admit their proposal won't address the > social ills but rather leaves them up to chance. That's more than in the > last 20 years. Our proposals do not leave things up to chance any more than the current system does. In fact, it can be argued that our system leaves less up to chance than yours does. Lets do a comparative analysis. In today's system: 1: Social Ill exists. 2: Social Ill is identified by someone. 3: That someone makes a lot of noise, and lobbies the state to supply money to finance the correction of the Social Ill. This is done by convincing a majority of voters in some election or other, which may not take place for at least a year, that this Social Ill is very important --more important than all the other Social Ills. 4: Someone who wants the Social Ill corrected gets into power, and proceeds to try to correct the Social Ill with a huge rumbling centralized governmental machine. This often excacerbates the Social Ill, rather than correcting it. The net result: The Social Ill is not likely to be corrected until the next election, and will be paid for by taking more money away from everyone else (since the state gets its money from taxpayers, and cannot create value out of thin air). Even worse, the person lobbying for the correction of the Social Ill may not get into power, since he may have lost the election to someone who used lots of money to make him look bad. Thus, the Social Ill may not get corrected for some time, if ever. Under a truly free system: 1: Social Ill exists. 2: Social Ill is identified by someone. 3: That someone makes a lot of noise, alerting everyone else to the existance of this Social Ill. Those who agree with the first someone will contribute time, money, and resources to correcting this Social Ill. 4: Social Ill is dealt with in the most effective manner possible, since people will be free to try to correct it in any number of ways, and will of course prefer to contribute their money to an effort that has the best effect. This is an improvement upon today's system. We no longer need to have the majority of voters approval to start correcting the Social Ill. All we need is a group of people who are willing to support the correction of the Social Ill. This makes the most sense, since we obviously don't need to draw on *everyone'* resources to correct every Social Ill. (of course, some rare Social Ills will be that large, but the larger the Social Ill, the more people wil recognize it as such.) Better yet, frivilous problems (i.e. those invented for the advancement of some politician's career, or out of sheer stupidity) will not have large amounts of resources wasted upon them. Only the most blind and stupid of people would contribute to the correction of nonexistant Social Ills (of course, that is their right, but at least nobody else will have to waste their money, if they don't wish to). So, is it now clear to you why your above statement was somewhat premature? Michael Hohensee From vznuri at netcom.com Tue Nov 10 14:08:03 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:08:03 +0800 Subject: IPINFO: Re: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed Message-ID: <199811102122.NAA18772@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IPINFO: Re: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:08:39 -0600 To: oldbat , ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com NOTICE TO LISTEES: If you are forwarding materials to the IP list that include URLs, *PLEASE* check them for accuracy before posting. Regarding: -------------------------- >>Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed >>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ts/story.html?s=v/nm/19981107/ts/guns _3.html >> >> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Clinton directed his government Saturday to >> find a way to close a legal loophole that allows speakers/journalists to >> express their ideas at public places with no questions asked. -------------------------- The above "story" is either a spoof of satire, or else an incorrect URL was given to accompany the article. If you access the link above you DO NOT find a story about free speech, but rather, the material below. If materials you send are not factual but are humorous or satirical in nature, please note that for the readers so we don't have a bunch of unfounded rumors floating around about new draconian measures that were actually only jokes to begin with. If there is a real story about Clinton's opposition to free speech, someone please send the correct URL. Here is the REAL story that accompanies the link above: Saturday November 7 12:46 PM ET Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Gun Law Closed WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Clinton directed his government Saturday to find a way to close a legal loophole that allows dealers to sell guns at gun shows with no questions asked. In his weekly radio address, Clinton said a ``dangerous trend'' is emerging at gun shows because the Brady handgun control law permits some firearms to be sold without background checks at these shows. ``Some of these gun shows have become illegal arms bazaars for criminals and gun traffickers looking to buy and sell guns on a cash-and-carry, no-questions-asked basis,'' Clinton said. He directed Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Attorney General Janet Reno to report back to him in 60 days with a plan to close the loophole and prohibit any gun sale without a background check. ``I believe this should be the law of the land: No background check, no gun, no exceptions,'' Clinton said. In a fact sheet, the White House said that every year about 5 million people attend an estimated 5,000 gun shows at convention centers, school gyms and on fairgrounds. The Brady law requires a five-day waiting period for gun purchasers in order for a background check. On Nov. 30, the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System is set to take effect to allow quicker checks and approve gun sales within minutes. In addition, on Nov. 30 the law will be strengthened in two ways: purchases of all firearms, not just handguns, will be subject to Brady background checks as will pawnshop redemptions, which are four times as likely to involve a prohibited purchase. Overall, the White House said, it is estimated that the number of background checks conducted nationally will increase from 4 million to between 10 and 12 million. Unregulated sales at gun shows were ``an open invitation to criminals,'' said Sarah Brady, who chairs Handgun Control Inc. The Brady law was named after her husband, James Brady, who was wounded in an attack on President Ronald Reagan in 1981. California and Maryland regulate ``flea market'' gun sales, said Brady. Florida voters passed a constitutional amendment Tuesday giving counties the power to require a waiting period and a background check for sales at gun shows and other public places. Copyright � 1998 Reuters Limited. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Tue Nov 10 14:09:58 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:09:58 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed Message-ID: <199811102122.NAA18762@netcom13.netcom.com> From: oldbat Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:48:25 -0500 To: IP http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ts/story.html?s=v/nm/19981107/ts/guns_3.html > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Clinton directed his government Saturday to > find a way to close a legal loophole that allows speakers/journalists to > express their ideas at public places with no questions asked. > In his weekly radio address, Clinton said a ``dangerous trend'' is emerging > at seminars and radio talk shows because the First Amendment permits people > to express their ideas without background checks. > ``Some of these talk shows have become a heaven for criminals and hate > speech mongers looking to sway people on a no-questions-asked basis,'' > Clinton said. > He directed Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Attorney General Janet Reno > to report back to him in 60 days with a plan to close the loophole in the > Bill of Rights and to prohibit any free speech without a background check. > ``I believe this should be the law of the land: No background check, no free > speech, no exceptions,'' Clinton said. > In a fact sheet, the White House said that every week about 35 million > people regularly listen to an estimated 50 conservative radio personalities > such as Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy. > On Nov. 30, 1999 the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System > is set to take effect to allow quicker checks and approve speech licenses > sales within minutes. > In addition, on Nov. 30, 1999 the law will be strengthened in two ways: > purchases of all speech licenses, not just political, will be subject to > Reno background checks as will Kinko's printing services, which are four > times as likely to involve a prohibited printed opinions. > Overall, the White House said, it is estimated that the number of background > checks conducted nationally will increase from 0 million to between 10 and > 12 million. > Unregulated speech are ``an open invitation to criminals and right wing > crazies,'' said Janet Reno, who chairs SpeechControl Inc. The Clinton law > was named after the President, who was wounded in verbal attacks first > launched by radio personality Rush Limbaugh in 1992. > California and Maryland regulate ``hate speech'', said Reno. Florida voters > passed a constitutional amendment Tuesday giving counties the power to > require a waiting period and a background check for speech at public places. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From apf2 at apf2.com Tue Nov 10 14:23:15 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:23:15 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981110224329.008bc5b0@apf2.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4061 bytes Desc: not available URL: From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 10 14:57:16 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:57:16 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and theForegone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101334.HAA17420@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 4:05 PM -0500 11/10/98, Michael Hohensee wrote: >Jim Choate wrote: >> [I'm deleting the rest of this since it doesn't answer any questions that >> have been posed to the anarcho-whatever side] >Then you haven't been reading very closely. That has already been established. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Tue Nov 10 15:22:38 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:22:38 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) In-Reply-To: <199811100157.RAA05844@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199811102039.UAA09523@server.eternity.org> Vladimir Nuri writes: > the distinction between govt and business is sometimes an > arbitrary one. for example govt agencies typically contract > with private companies to perform govt services. a massive > example of this is the defense industry. what I would tend > to propose is a system where this is augmented and finetuned > to the point the govt become a very efficient sorting mechanism > for channeling money to businesses that are the most efficient. Even when government does sub-contract, the inefficiency is usually I think pretty horrendous by industry standards: 1. the subcontracted work is probably not at all desired by the customers (us the tax payers) 2. the subcontracted work is probably poorly specified, so the contractor does work which inefficiently works towards the customers requirements 3. because governments are monopolies they have no incentive to choose the best value for money contract, or to try hard to obtain reasonable contracts 4. because governments employees are often corrupt kick backs are taken by corrupt employees to accept other than the best value for money contractor > AB, I disagree that people would opt out of virtually all govt > services. bzzzzzzzt. think of things like trash collection etc. > I do believe the vast majority of things the govt does would > tend to stay there even if people had a choice. Everything that can easily be privatised would either be privatised (because it would be so much cheaper without all the corruption, ineptitude and lack of efficiency insentive), or for the first time some competition would be introduced into government and they would actually compete on an even basis. Either outcome is preferable over the current situation, and a direct result of allowing competition. > the big libertarian question is, as you raise it: should people > have to pay for things they don't want. absolutely not. > well consider things like roads, if you don't drive you shouldn't have to pay for them. > police if you have hired a private security firm for protection you shouldn't have to pay for the police (who as others have noted mostly do unproductive things, and prosecute victimless crimes, and generally harrass people). > or fire protection well if your house burns down, and you haven't taken fire insurance with a fire fighting service, and can't afford the fee, well that's tough luck. > or the court system. I don't want to subsidize arbitration services locking away people for victimless crimes, so I will subscribe to arbitration services which don't do this. See "Machinery of Freedom" by David Friedman for a plausible frame work for choice in arbitration services and intra service negotations. Note quite a lot of business use independent arbitration services, because it is much cheaper, fairer, and more predictable than the government monopoly court system. > what if you don't pay, but then dial 911 anyway? they ask for your to authenticate your chaumian credential insurancce contract. if you can't do that they don't come, same as any other 0800-RENTACOP service. > or you dial 911 and they ask for your credit card first? yup, exactly. > it really does seem to me like there is a legitimate role for a > certain amount of money to be collected for govt service. I think you can privatise everything. Things which are called natural monopolies could be managed by trade organisations or companies bidding for management getting efficiency related fees. Why should politicians and the rest manage roads, why not a company. > imho it is far, far less than whatis being collected today. zero I think woudl be best, or very very close. > if taxes were 5-10% people wouldn't give as much a damn about the > govt and how it worked. What all could you spend 5-10% of GNP on that couldn't be privatised? Sounds like an awful lot of legalised theft yet! > libertarians tend to be awfully realistic some times. who pays for > roads when everyone uses them? don't pay not allowed to use. not everyone uses them to drive cars on. Adam From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 10 15:26:37 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:26:37 +0800 Subject: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful Message-ID: <3648B332.19DA@lsil.com> I didn't think of this before but add together bees, wind and rampant tree sex and this stuff will definitely spread. It could even become a bit of a "problem". The people who have packets of seeds should distribute those quickly to friends before the buggerers get the mailing list and start confiscating seeds. BTW - I believe that citrus hybridize freely, rather like mentha in that respect. Wild and cool. I think he should do apples next. Then strawberries. Peaches. Beans. A whole fucking farmer's market. From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Tue Nov 10 15:28:21 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:28:21 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101343.HAA17689@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811102109.VAA09630@server.eternity.org> Jim Choate writes: > From: "Frank O'Dwyer" > > Jim Choate wrote: > > > > You can make money from information provision by charging extra for > > > > up-to-date news, or by charging so little that the cost from the > > > > original provider is so low that it's not worth anyones time to > > > > redistribute it, > > > > > > That's true now, why don't we see these effects... > > > > We do. News inherently has a 'sell-by' date. The most obvious example is > > stock quotes where delayed quotes are provided for free whereas > > real-time quotes are heavily charged for. > > Ah, true but I was addressing the last sentence about the cost being so low > nobody will charge for it.....sounds like the nuclear industry marketing > speal of the 50's.... One barrier to such an enterprise is the domain name recognition, people want wired, they type wired.com; what do they type if they want the lower priced mirrors? In a sense the banner stripping companies are already doing just this service: they attempt to provide you (or assist you in obtaining) banner stripped versions of anything, and they charge you for the service. Therefore one might (somewhat weakly) argue that they deprive wired (and others) of click through revenue and they charge you thus diverting funds wired et al might otherwise have got. This illustrates my point about charging little. If this type of enterprise suceeds this indicates that some information providers are charging too much (too many banners, to an distracting and intrusive extent). If the banners strippers became popular (eg. distributed with netscape!), the solution for those employing the banner approach to charging is to tone down the banners a bit. I reckon they could do with toning down -- it is getting ridiculus most of the bandwidth through my trusty 28.8k modem is bloody banners these days! (Phone calls cost per second in the UK, and I am impatient anyway, so would prefer faster access.) Adam From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 10 15:30:55 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:30:55 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <36484ED1.6F3B9F1E@workmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:43 PM -0500 11/10/98, Albert P. Franco, II wrote: I left the good ol' USA too. I now live in a European country with a strong socialistic government and I actually find very little interference in my day to day life. In fact there seems to be a much higher awareness that each Crap. They take 60+ percent of your income in taxes, that means that they take 60+ percent of your working day. They (at least france) throw up HUGE barriers to anyone wanting to start a business, especially if they will need to hire workers. This not only makes it difficult for you to start a business (which would never happen since you've indicated you like someone else making decisions for you) but also increases unemployment (prevents others from creating jobs rather than just begging for them). individual is responsible for his and her actions. At the very least there aren't as many lawyers claiming everyone is a victim of something or another (ie. too hot coffee, slippery floors, home owners that shot the poor intruder who didn't get a warning first, etc.) Of course not, it's the states fault. Ain't no where perfect, anarcho-whatever was done about 4000 years ago, I generally prefer to look forward... So, the fact that it hasn't been tried in 4000 years means it will never work? I guess it's a good thing the wright brothers didn't take that attitude, nor Robert Goddard. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From mah248 at nyu.edu Tue Nov 10 16:01:55 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:01:55 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3648A8A0.46A41EFC@nyu.edu> Albert P. Franco, II wrote: > > I've been lurking on this thread for a while, and I am amazed by the level > of utopist muck that is being spewed here by you. I love you, too. > Without some government the Bad Guys will be the only ones with anything. > It is only with the threat of losing their power that leaders do good. If > they had no power which could be lost or taken they will always do what's > best for them in the short term, which is usually to shit on the peons. > Dictators (like Pinochet and Gates) do their dirty deeds because they feel > no need to placate the masses. If they wield no real power, and proceed to do whatever is best for them in the short term, they will be screwing themselves over in the long term (or short term, if doing what they want results in someone shooting them in self defense). And precisely what dirty deeds has Mr. Gates ever done? Excluding those actions in which the judicious use of state regulation was involved. > This anarcho-capitalist spew is so much crap that the bullshit indicators > are blaring at top volume. If the people can't control a constitutional > government, known for having peacefully free elections for over two hundred > years, then how the hell do think you can convince somebody that the people > are going to be able to control warlords and monopolies. It's called, "You > don't like it? Bang, Bang, you're dead!" Yah, and then somebody else points a gun at Mr. would-be warlord and goes Bang, Bang, he's dead (it's unsafe having warlords about --sorta like scorpions). That is, if Mr. would-be manages to shoot me without being shot himself. > Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at > least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting > anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure > it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then > come back and tell us. It hasn't happened yet. But then, neither had the USA, before 1776. The above is not a reasonable argument. You can, of course, as me how it *could* happen. And unfortunately, you're partially correct, it couldn't happen under current conditions. The amount of personal firepower that is easily accessible by everyone is not sufficient to back up the soverignity of each individual. It's all linked to whether weapons technology is such that individuals can operate weapons which are just as effective as those wielded by highly trained and specialized groups. The pendulum of weapons tech. swings back and forth over time. During the American Revolution, the pendulum was on the side of individuals, as can be shown by the fact that the revolutionaries were carrying better weapons than those carried by professional soldiers, and could use them to equal or larger effect. Today, of course, the pendulum is on the other side. Tanks, fighter planes, aircraft carriers, etc are where it's at. Read "Weapons Systems and Political Stability" by Carroll Quigley, for an interesting analysis on the subject. Of course, the pendulum keeps on swinging, and there are some indications that it's moving back. For example, anti-aircraft missiles have gotten so small that they can be carried by one man. In any modern war, planes had better be damned careful of what they fly over, lest they get a missile up their rears. So, all we need right now is to produce either a convienient impenetrable shield, or perhaps high-energy weapons. When one man can take out a tank with an inexpensive handweapon, we'll be all set. :) Michael Hohensee From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 16:06:25 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:06:25 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811102345.RAA20475@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:38:55 +1000 > From: Reeza! > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > >Like I said, at least your more honest than the rest of these wanna-be > >thieves. > > Your earlier reply on honesty was to Petro, I think you are confusing me > with him. Then the two of you are more honest than most of the anarcho-whatever folks I've come across. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From howree at cable.navy.mil Tue Nov 10 16:06:50 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:06:50 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101638.KAA18839@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111093855.008672b0@205.83.192.13> At 10:38 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Like I said, at least your more honest than the rest of these wanna-be >thieves. Your earlier reply on honesty was to Petro, I think you are confusing me with him. >You might want to see doctor about that hole you shot in your foot while >it was in your mouth. Huh? Reeza! If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 10 16:08:59 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:08:59 +0800 Subject: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful (fwd ) In-Reply-To: <3648A1A9.7DE1@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3648ABF9.515D@lsil.com> Clyde wrote: > > Long but fascinating... > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > 9 November 1998 > > DATELINE--Tallahassee, Fla. > Oranges that get you high > =========================== > > A Florida Biochemist designs a citrus tree with THC. > > In the summer of 1984, 10th-grader Irwin Nanofsky and a > friend were driving down the Apalachee Parkway on the way > home from baseball practice when they were pulled over by > a police officer for a minor traffic infraction. > > After Nanofsky produced his driver's license the police > officer asked permission to search the vehicle. In less > than two minutes, the officer found a homemade pipe > underneath the passenger's seat of the Ford Aerostar > belonging to the teenage driver's parents. The minivan > was seized, and the two youths were taken into custody on > suspicion of drug possession. > > Illegal possession of drug paraphernalia ranks second > only to open container violations on the crime blotter of > this Florida college town. And yet the routine arrest of > 16 year-old Nanofsky and the seizure of his family's > minivan would inspire one of the most controversial > drug-related scientific discoveries of the century. > > Meet Hugo Nanofsky, biochemist, Florida State University > tenured professor, and the parental authority who posted > bail for Irwin Nanofsky the night of July 8, 1984. The > elder Nanofsky wasn't pleased that his son had been > arrested for possession of drug paraphernalia, and he > became livid when Tallahassee police informed him that > the Aerostar minivan would be permanently remanded to > police custody. > > Over the course of the next three weeks, Nanofsky penned > dozens of irate letters to the local police chief, the > Tallahassee City Council, the State District Attorney > and, finally, even to area newspapers. But it was all to > no avail. > > Under advisement of the family lawyer, Irwin Nanofsky > pled guilty to possession of drug paraphernalia in order > to receive a suspended sentence and have his juvenile > court record sealed. But in doing so, the family minivan > became "an accessory to the crime." According to Florida > State law, it also became the property of the Tallahassee > Police Department Drug Task Force. In time, the adult > Nanofsky would learn that there was nothing he could do > legally to wrest the vehicle from the hands of the state. > > It was in the fall of 1984 that Biochem 101: How to > John Chapman Professor of design a > Biochemistry at Florida State Cannabis-equivalent > University, now driving to work citrus plant > behind the wheel of a used Pontiac > Bonneville, first set on a pet Step One: > project that he hoped would Biochemically > "dissolve irrational legislation isolate all the > with a solid dose of reason." required enzymes for > Nanofsky knew he would never get the production of > his family's car back, but he had THC. > plans to make sure that no one > else would be pulled through the Step Two: > gears of what he considers a Perform N-terminal > Kafka-esque drug enforcement sequencing on > bureaucracy. isolated enzymes, > design degenerate > "It's quite simple, really," PCR (polymerase > Nanofsky explains, "I wanted to chain reaction) > combine Citrus sinesis with Delta primers and amplify > 9-tetrahydrocannabinol." In the genes. > layman's terms, the respected > college professor proposed to grow Step Three: > oranges that would contain THC, Clone genes into an > the active ingredient in agrobacterial vector > marijuana. Fourteen years later, by introducing the > that project is complete, and desired piece of DNA > Nanofsky has succeeded where his into a plasmid containing > letter writing campaign of yore a transfer or T-DNA. > failed: he has the undivided The mixture is transformed > attention of the nation's top drug into Agrobacterium > enforcement agencies, political tumefaciens, a gram > figures, and media outlets. negative bacterium. > > The turning point in the Nanofsky Step Four: > saga came when the straight-laced Use the Agrobacterium > professor posted a message to tumefaciens to infect citrus > Internet newsgroups announcing plants after wounding. The > that he was offering transfer DNA will proceed > "cannabis-equivalent orange tree to host cells by a mechanism > seeds" at no cost via the U.S. similar to conjugation. > mail. Several weeks later, U.S. The DNA is randomly > Justice Department officials integrated into the > showed up at the mailing address host genome and will > used in the Internet announcement: be inherited. > a tiny office on the second floor > of the Dittmer Laboratory of > Chemistry building on the FSU campus. There they would wait > for another 40 minutes before Prof. Nanofsky finished > delivering a lecture to graduate students on his recent > research into the "cis-trans photoisomerization of olefins." > > "I knew it was only a matter of time before someone sent > me more than just a self-addressed stamped envelope," > Nanofsky quips, "but I was surprised to see Janet Reno's > special assistant at my door." After a series of closed > door discussions, Nanofsky agreed to cease distribution > of the THC-orange seeds until the legal status of the > possibly narcotic plant species is established. > > Much to the chagrin of authorities, the effort to > regulate Nanofsky's invention may be too little too late. > Several hundred packets containing 40 to 50 seeds each > have already been sent to those who've requested them, > and Nanofsky is not obliged to produce his mailing > records. Under current law, no crime has been committed > and it is unlikely that charges will be brought against > the fruit's inventor. > > Now it is federal authorities who must confront the > nation's unwieldy body of inconsistent drug laws. > According to a source at the Drug Enforcement Agency, it > may be months if not years before all the issues involved > are sorted out, leaving a gaping hole in U.S. drug policy > in the meantime. At the heart of the confusion is the > fact that THC now naturally occurs in a new species of > citrus fruit. > > As policy analysts and hemp advocates alike have been > quick to point out, the apparent legality (for now) of > Nanofsky's "pot orange" may render debates over the > legalization of marijuana moot. In fact, Florida's top > law enforcement officials admit that even if the > cultivation of Nanofsky's orange were to be outlawed, it > would be exceedingly difficult to identify the presence > of outlawed fruit among the state's largest agricultural > crop. > > Amidst all of the hubbub surrounding his father's > experiment, Irwin Nanofsky exudes calm indifference. Now > 30-years-old and a successful environmental photographer, > the younger Nanofsky can't understand what all of the > fuss is about. "My dad's a chemist. He makes polymers. I > doubt it ever crossed his mind that as a result of his > work tomorrow's kids will be able to get high off of half > an orange." > > Copyright 1994-98 San Francisco Bay Guardian. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 16:16:14 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:16:14 +0800 Subject: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful (fwd ) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811102347.RAA20592@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:11:21 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka > Subject: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful (fwd ) > > A Florida Biochemist designs a citrus tree with THC. Geesh, it's about time. I was wondering what the hell was taking these folks so long to map those mechanisms over into other organisms. Good for him! ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From guy at panix.com Tue Nov 10 16:44:02 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:44:02 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110028.TAA19501@panix7.panix.com> > From: Adam Back > > Jim Choate writes: > > > > Ah, true but I was addressing the last sentence about the cost being so low > > nobody will charge for it.....sounds like the nuclear industry marketing > > speal of the 50's.... > > One barrier to such an enterprise is the domain name recognition, > people want wired, they type wired.com; what do they type if they want > the lower priced mirrors? Uno momento... http://www.altavista.com Ask AltaVistaTM a question. Example: "Where can I find information on bicycles?" Okay, let's give it a spin... 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The Bronze Face Mirror is a large (14 x 12 cm) mirror made out of clay. 3. The Eye Rings that have a diameter of 2cm are made from a special clay. 4. This Mermaid of Flower ? make up shelf (24 x 84cm) is made from wood. 5. This large (20 x 30 cm) Corset mirror is made from clay and wood. 6. The Large Space Ship Mirror is now made from wood (70 x 45 cm) 7. Gold-Leafed Oval Mirrors. Original designs, sophisticated finishes, and remarkable wholesale prices. [ DING DING DING DING! ] 8. These Wooden Lips are available in Red, Pink and Purple (76 x 53 cm). 9. The Little Devil is a large (14 x 16 cm) face mirror made out of clay. 10. Goderich Chrysler Plymouth Dodge Trucks, Goderich, Ontario, Canada, new and used vehicles Wow. Just like 4th-generation development languages put programmers out of business, these search engines will eliminate the need for any other form of advertising. ---guy From PCBSUPPORT at PICOBELLO.COM Tue Nov 10 16:55:59 1998 From: PCBSUPPORT at PICOBELLO.COM (PCBSUPPORT at PICOBELLO.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:55:59 +0800 Subject: PiCoBello-Web-Speed-Installation-Instructions Message-ID: Hi, Thanks for downloading our software.Please go through download-instruction. PiCoBello Web-Speed wird vorerst wie eine volle Version laufen. Nach 20 mal Abspeichern, oder nach 30 Tagen ab Installationsdatum, folgt ein passives Demonstrationsprogramm ohne die Funktionen Speichern und Drucken. Bei Bezahlungen mit Kreditkarte gew�hrt PiCoBello Web-Speed f�r 2 Wochen eine Geld zur�ck Garantie. Sollten Sie Probleme haben, schreiben Sie uns bitte eine Email,wir helfe Ihnen gerne. Ihr PiCoBello Web-Speed Team. http://www.web-speed.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 16:59:09 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:59:09 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110037.SAA20949@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:40:16 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > No, I am saying that since EVERY government at one time or another > treats its citizens like roaches, it's time to radically change the nature > of it so that it basically can't be called a government any more. The problem isn't government, it's the people who enforce the government that abuse it. > >Well actualy it's whether it has a tax stamp whether you sell it out of a > >storefront or a truckbed is irrelevent. Considering the number of people wh= > Wanna bet? Absolutely. I happen to know a whole passel of beer, wine, and liqour makers. Austin as aswim in micro-breweries. I'd be more than happy to pass your email address to the enibriated set and let them argue the point with you. > Most states have fairly strict laws concerning where liquor can be > sold. Actualy it's not the states (at least Texas and Louisiana), it's the local cities. The state of Texas doesn't care as long as you pay your liquor license and don't sell to minors and obey the local zoning ordinances. Texas Alchohol and Drug Abuse Commission 9001 N. IH-35, #105, 78753 512-349-6600 Texas Attorney General Office Taxation: 512-463-2002 Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission 512-458-2500 > Which is completely irrelevant as to wheter or not it is currently > black market or not, which is the context I was working in. > > Stay on target. I am on target. The fact that a unregulated alcohol industry led to death, debilitation, and financial hardship justified the imposition of regulation on alcohol and its related operations. You just don't want the entire picture painted because it cast a harsh light on the premise that un-regulated economies are good things. > >Not necessarily. The doctor has to have a medicaly supportable reason to > >dispence those drugs. Otherwise it's just as black market as Joe's. > > Quibble Quibble. You know EXACTLY what I meant. Yeah, you meant to commit an act of ommission so that your position looks more favorable than it actualy does. > >Didn't think of theft? Jesus H. Christ, you gotta be on Joe's drugs. The > >vast majority of material sold on *ANY* black market is stolen from its > >rightful owner. It is *the* example of black market trading that most folks > >think of first. > > No, the vast majority (in terms of dollars) of stuff sold on the > black market is Drugs. Really? Drugs are what $10B US a year or so. I bet stolen automobiles when taken as a whole gross more loss than that. And what makes you think that the vast majority of that drugs aren't purchased at the street level with funds gotten from theft? The drugs may not be stolen, the dollar that they were bought with was in most cases. > Treat theft like any other economic activity, and figure out how to > make it unprofitable. Let me know when you figure that one out. > >How the hell do you sell something on the black market if you don't have > >possession of it? And exactly who is going to prosecute anyone for > > Easy, it's called a Con. > > Seriously tho, I said that the _selling_ of stolen goods might not > be illegal, but the possesion of such things, and the stealing of them are > seperate acts to the selling of them. Still doesn't answer my question. > There isn't a need to. Shoot them. Ah, so you admit that the general mechanism to settle inter-personal dispute under your plan is to allow people to run around shooting each other. Well, at least we've got an honest admission that murder would be legal in this system. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 17:15:48 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:15:48 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110052.SAA21018@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:13:07 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Really, you are saying they couldn't possibly recognize the > benefits of teaming up and co-locating fire stations, or that they wouldn't > sub-contract to a company that handled fires? So, you want to sub-contract out which is going to raise the cost and doesn't alleviate the insurance company from regulatory and supply issues. It'd cost a fortune. > This could still be more effcient than government. I'd love to see your cost breakdown... > "reasonable" in cost? There is a LOT if inefficiency in the system > that competition could eliminate. Yep, and a lot of people the competition would eliminate as well. I'll live with the inefficiency as long as the cost is affordable for the quality of service delivered. I don't mind fireman sitting around eating bar-b-q unless somebodies house burns down. > Read that last bit. They got so carried away, that they spent > themselves out of existence. That is one example, I know of several fortune 100 companies that are equaly extravagant. The problem with Compu-Add was they shot their whole wad. > Governments just raise taxes, there is no penalty for ineffcientcy, > or lousy spelling. Sure there is, it just takes longer than a rifle bullet to settle. > Ok, so you limit the senators and congressmen, then the unelected > beaureacrats have the power since they know the system and run the system. Not at all, they are limited in what they can do by the laws. It's not like they're running around sending bills to people out of the blue and making up the system as they go along. Despite your protestations to the contrary the system just don't work that way. > Wearing a painted leather jacket & ripped up blue jeans is NOT a > reason to get hauled off the street, searched and questioned. If it happened to you and you didn't file a harrassment complaint then you got what you deserved. If you don't use the system it won't work. Never happened to me or anyone I knew unless they were in particular places at particular times. If a cop busts people at a corner every nite for breaking the law it isn't the cops fault, it's the stupid people who keep doing the same damn thing at the same place knowing full well the consequences. > Looking different is not illegal. > > Thinking different is not illegal. Nobody said it was and it isn't. Now if you happen to fit the description of another perp well that's just too damn bad. > With a bunch thrown in at the federal level. Federal Matching Funds > & etc. Oh, malarky (and stay away from my business books). It's obvious you never do accounting. The matching funds are for roads outside of the city or for highways that transit cities. They are not supposed to be used for city street or FM or RM roads. > Then why do they keep building them? Because we still hav an Army whose job it is to defend this country you nit-wit. If we didn't keep fixing them and expanding the system as people move around and expand the Army might find it a tad hard to do their job when called to it. And yes, I know the Militia is the one who is supposed to be called in for that sort of stuff - that's a whole other topic. > Promote does not mean "give away", it means "promote", do things > which incourage. Absolutely. While I agree that there are some particular issues that need fixing in a major way that is not the same (as you would have us believe) as saying as a result the whole system should be scrapped. > They were the heads of the governments. The skills and abilities it > takes to get to that level insure that the people who get there have no > concern for those underneath them. Oh, you mean insanity, egotism, neurosis, etc.? > There is no making up my mind. I never claimed the a government > could or should, rather I am claiming that it can't and won't, and to > expect it to be able to, much less willing to is foolish. Ah, but it does try and in some cases it succeeds. So my expectation is not completely without merit. > So we agree that any government is doomed from the start, since > w/out people of honesty and integrity no system will work properly. No, *all* people are not such. Most people I know are honest and have integrity. What has to happen is a set of checks and balances, which we are admittedly short of at the moment. The system isn't perfect, never claimed to be (read the 1st paragraph if the Constitution), and if it remains so then it's *OUR* fault and not the systems. > No, that face that stares back from the mirror makes every effort > to be as honest and forthright as it can. It causes grief sometimes, but > it's the principle. You claim to be honest yet promote a system that allows slavery, murder, theft, and other horrendous crimes against man.... ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 17:21:51 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:21:51 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110057.SAA21081@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:40:11 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the > Foregone(fwd) > I left the good ol' USA too. I now live in a European country with a strong > socialistic government and I actually find very little interference in my > day to day life. In fact there seems to be a much higher awareness that > each I find very little interference in my daily life as well (except when one of you anarcho-cooks starts dropping bombs and threatening people). > Crap. They take 60+ percent of your income in taxes, that means > that they take 60+ percent of your working day. They take 40% of my income, or are you talking of France taking 60% of your income. Disagreement over the level or specific policies for spending it do not justify eliminating the system. > They (at least france) throw up HUGE barriers to anyone wanting to > start a business, especially if they will need to hire workers. This not > only makes it difficult for you to start a business (which would never > happen since you've indicated you like someone else making decisions for > you) but also increases unemployment (prevents others from creating jobs > rather than just begging for them). And you find that a better place to live then the US? > individual is responsible for his and her actions. At the very least there > aren't as many lawyers claiming everyone is a victim of something or > another (ie. too hot coffee, slippery floors, home owners that shot the > poor intruder who didn't get a warning first, etc.) What is the percentage of lawyers in France to the total population? > Ain't no where perfect, anarcho-whatever was done about 4000 years ago, I > generally prefer to look forward... > > So, the fact that it hasn't been tried in 4000 years means it will > never work? > > I guess it's a good thing the wright brothers didn't take that > attitude, nor Robert Goddard. We tried anarchy, it's called cave men. As to Wright and Goddard, they had ample evidence in physics (that's been around what 4.5B years) to build their expectations on. In the field of politics and social system the only thing we have to go with is our imagination, patience, understanding, and past practice. 5k years or a little more. All of those say anarcho-anything systems won't work. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 17:55:18 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:55:18 +0800 Subject: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110118.TAA21145@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:35:16 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd) > No, the intent *is* to make the system better and more equitable. It's > just that we don't favor the socialist definition of "equitable". Taxation doesn't imply socialism, socialism is the state ownership of property. In case you didn't know it, Russians didn't pay taxes because they dind't have to. The Chinese still don't pay taxes (except for businesses that are licensed by the state). > We support voluntary systems, not coercive ones. The US is a voluntary system, you can always leave. > Except that it's personal improvement for *everyone* (except for tyrants > and other politicans, but we didn't like them much anyway). And those who are stolen from, killed in petty disputes, wronged in business deals gone bad with no legal recourse and no hope of future legal ramifications for the perps, starve to death because some asshole who values a dollar more than a human life won't give somebody a meal, those who can't start businesses because the existing markets have locked up the necessary resources, etc. > Our proposals do not leave things up to chance any more than the current > system does. In fact, it can be argued that our system leaves less up > to chance than yours does. Lets do a comparative analysis. It leave a lot up to chance, the chance of making a profit in the market with no regulations or other mechanism to stop abuse or other wrongs. The implication is that the vast majority of participants won't be the one making the profit and will as a consequence suffer because of it. > 1: Social Ill exists. > 2: Social Ill is identified by someone. > 3: That someone makes a lot of noise, and lobbies the state to supply > money to finance the correction of the Social Ill. This is done by > convincing a majority of voters in some election or other, which may not > take place for at least a year, that this Social Ill is very important > --more important than all the other Social Ills. No, it simply says that the current society has recognized a need, determined that it can be addressed and chooses to do so. > 4: Someone who wants the Social Ill corrected gets into power, and > proceeds to try to correct the Social Ill with a huge rumbling > centralized governmental machine. This often excacerbates the Social > Ill, rather than correcting it. Well actualy the huge rumbling centralized government is a result of the economic impact of business on government, not the folks who want to address social ills. The vast majority (well over half of each tax dollar) goes to military or military related issues, not social ills. This is a strawman. > The net result: The Social Ill is not likely to be corrected until the > next election, and will be paid for by taking more money away from > everyone else (since the state gets its money from taxpayers, and cannot > create value out of thin air). Even worse, the person lobbying for the > correction of the Social Ill may not get into power, since he may have > lost the election to someone who used lots of money to make him look > bad. Thus, the Social Ill may not get corrected for some time, if ever. > Under a truly free system: > > 1: Social Ill exists. And in spades. > 2: Social Ill is identified by someone. > 3: That someone makes a lot of noise, alerting everyone else to the > existance of this Social Ill. Those who agree with the first someone > will contribute time, money, and resources to correcting this Social > Ill. And what if that noise is contrary to the interest of a the business that is perpetrating it. Since there are no protections of speech and press under your system what keeps somebody from simply shooting the loud-mouthed trouble maker? Historicaly there is plenty of evidence for this sort of behaviour in un-regulated markets. Why would a business allow such a vociferous display? > 4: Social Ill is dealt with in the most effective manner possible, since > people will be free to try to correct it in any number of ways, and will > of course prefer to contribute their money to an effort that has the > best effect. The most effective manner is to never have it happen in the first place. While it's clear it isn't possible to legislate individual behaviour past a grossly crude point it is possible to put breaks on the sorts of laws that a given government can pass and enforce. At least with a bill of rights we have a guide that we can use to measure extant and future legislation against. This can occur now under the present system, why doesn't it happen more? There is absolutely no regulations that would prevent such activity; hell the currrent system will even allow you to be exempt from taxes and give you loans, will yours? But to address the point, given that there are no courts, laws, etc. How does one go about addressing the social ill? Buy the company out? How realistic is it to expect the human slave to have the resources to buy themselves out? Not very damn likely. > This is an improvement upon today's system. Only if you believe your smarter and faster on the draw than everyone who is alive and will be alive during your life. Ain't gonna happen, there is always a bigger fish, and they're hungry. We no longer need to have > the majority of voters approval to start correcting the Social Ill. All No, you simply need to have the majority of social participants (I don't think we should call them citizens) involved first person. The time drain alone of that is enough to guarantee that nothing will be done. > of the Social Ill. This makes the most sense, since we obviously don't > need to draw on *everyone'* resources to correct every Social Ill. (of > course, some rare Social Ills will be that large, but the larger the > Social Ill, the more people wil recognize it as such.) They will? Historicaly the majority of social ills have been recognized as such by a minority and were corrected by a political mechanism that recognizes things like civil liberties and limits on government purvue a priori. > Better yet, frivilous problems (i.e. those invented for the advancement > of some politician's career, or out of sheer stupidity) will not have > large amounts of resources wasted upon them. And what makes you think that under your system a silver tongued devil won't be able to garner the same sorts of support? People are social animals and will follow the leader they believe will get them to where they need to be. Whether that is government or a marketing puke is irrelevant. > So, is it now clear to you why your above statement was somewhat > premature? It is clear to me that you neither understand human psychology, politics, economics (macro or micro), or what freedom means. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 17:58:00 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:58:00 +0800 Subject: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110128.TAA21211@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:09:38 GMT > From: Adam Back > Subject: Re: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd) > One barrier to such an enterprise is the domain name recognition, > people want wired, they type wired.com; what do they type if they want > the lower priced mirrors? The same question can be asked of the shopper who wants the lowest priced tomato's. It isn't the vendors responsibility to provide those sorts of mechanism for the consumer (or user of a system). The interpretation of what lowest price means is so varied that trying to talk of it as some sort of universal given is like talking about rational consumers. It's a non-sequitar. If the consumer wants the lowest price (in their personal estimation) goods then they have several choices (at least): - They can look for it themselves - They can ask a friend - They can pay somebody else to look for them - Or they can sit back and wait for the relevant production sites to contact them (eg Wed's glob of shiney adverts) There is also the very real question of why would wired allow a 3rd party sell their product at a lower cost than they can sell it themselves? Not a rational or good business practice anyway you look at it. > service. Therefore one might (somewhat weakly) argue that they > deprive wired (and others) of click through revenue and they charge > you thus diverting funds wired et al might otherwise have got. Yeah, so? Just because I window shop in HEB down the street doesn't mean I am required to buy anything. And if I walk past a shop and don't register their window display doesn't mean the store lost anything from me - the very fact that I ignored it means they weren't going to get my money at that point. Now if they follow me down the sidewalk and bellow at me I can guarantee that I (and most other folks) won't buy there even if the price is lower. I'd say "quit your whinning". ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 18:03:05 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:03:05 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) Message-ID: <199811110129.TAA21263@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:05:08 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) > > Explain how the system works. Explain how the various systems operate, how > > the costs are calculated, and how they're paid. I want to see the same level > > of *specificity* that I and others have agreed to provide you in our > > examples. > > Do you have any idea what you're asking for? More than you can produce apparently. > Quite frankly, I do not have the time (nor the space) to explain to you, > in detail, how an entire civilization operates. In fact, any attempt by > me to explain such a system would fail, since there are doubtless many > innovations which specialists in the respective fields would make, and > there are many more which have already been made, which I am not > necessarilly aware of. If you can't explain your system to me in sufficient detail then perhaps it's because you don't understand it. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 10 18:04:37 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:04:37 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and donebetter (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) In-Reply-To: <199811100157.RAA05844@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 3:39 PM -0500 11/10/98, Adam Back wrote: >Vladimir Nuri writes: >> well consider things like roads, > >if you don't drive you shouldn't have to pay for them. >> libertarians tend to be awfully realistic some times. who pays for >> roads when everyone uses them? > >don't pay not allowed to use. not everyone uses them to drive cars >on. Roads are the easiest (assuming a government model) things to apply road use taxes to, simply tax gasoline, oil, and tires. Scale your tire tax based on weight and apply it to bicycles as well, then everyone (execpt peds) who uses pays. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From poc at searchengine-secrets.com Tue Nov 10 18:08:31 1998 From: poc at searchengine-secrets.com (poc at searchengine-secrets.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:08:31 +0800 Subject: Your Web Site location Message-ID: <199811110137.RAA10828@toad.com> Would you like to improve your web site's position on the Search Engines? 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To learn more about how you can obtain this essential information and receive a free subscription to our monthly update Newsletter, go to.... http://www.search-engine-secrets.com/se_help/ Sincerely, Stephen Mahaney - President Planet Ocean Communications *************************************************** Note: We have contacted you based on information that we gathered while visiting your website - If you would prefer not to receive mail from us in the future, simply reply with the word "remove" in the subject line and you will be automatically excluded from future correspondence. *************************************************** From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 18:09:37 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:09:37 +0800 Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110154.TAA21649@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:28:11 -0700 (MST) > From: Jim Burnes > Subject: Re: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone) (fwd) > (1) Social transfer payments at the point of a gun are involuntary > compassion. > > (2) Involutary compassion is usually called rape. No, thats' lust not compassion. Involuntary lust is called rape. > Combine this with the US Govt defining a sex life as a "right" > (witness free Viagra) and you come up with some pretty > chilling scenarios. > > (do people have the "right" to a sex partner?) Read the 9th Amendment. I'd say so. > Whats to stop rape of selected human beings by agents of > the federal government? (ok, maybe thats going a little > too far The 4th Amendment among others. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 18:10:21 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:10:21 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) Message-ID: <199811110150.TAA21515@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:57:04 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) > > Without some government the Bad Guys will be the only ones with anything. > > It is only with the threat of losing their power that leaders do good. If > > they had no power which could be lost or taken they will always do what's > > best for them in the short term, which is usually to shit on the peons. > > Dictators (like Pinochet and Gates) do their dirty deeds because they feel > > no need to placate the masses. > > If they wield no real power, and proceed to do whatever is best for them > in the short term, they will be screwing themselves over in the long > term (or short term, if doing what they want results in someone shooting > them in self defense). If they have that kind of power they will have the shooter shot, look at the history of leaders and assassinations. The reality is that the vast majority of them fail. There is the other aspect that if one is willing to assassinate (murder in plain english) simply because somebody else murdered then we are in fact trading one tyrant for another. > And precisely what dirty deeds has Mr. Gates ever done? Every un-fair market practice he could get away with (why is it that anarcho-whatever types always leave that 'fair competition' out of their discussion?). Why do you believe the Halloween documents are so enlightening? Because they demonstrate without a shadow of doubt that Billy wanted to exist as the sole market force, not a force limited by fair competition. The concept of fair-competition is anti-thematic to the world-domination memes that are currently making the rounds. > Excluding those > actions in which the judicious use of state regulation was involved. Hell, if we just look at the business practices within the context of a market with fair competition it's clear he's so far out in left field he's playing by himself. > Yah, and then somebody else points a gun at Mr. would-be warlord and > goes Bang, Bang, he's dead (it's unsafe having warlords about --sorta > like scorpions). That is, if Mr. would-be manages to shoot me without > being shot himself. Well I'd say if you're running around shooting people for any reason other than immediate self defence you deserve what you get. > > Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at > > least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting > > anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure > > it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then > > come back and tell us. > > It hasn't happened yet. But then, neither had the USA, before 1776. > The above is not a reasonable argument. It is at least a start, there was ample evidence historicaly that democracy (you ever hear of the Dutch?) was tried to varying degrees. It seems to work out better than any other system we've developed. If you want to see a discussion of democracy prior to the US check out: On the improvement of the understanding; The Ethics; Correspondence Benedict de Spinoza ISBN 0-486-20250-x $7.95 (Dover) They were written in the mid to late 1600's (shortly before the birth of the founding fathers). > You can, of course, as me how it *could* happen. And unfortunately, > you're partially correct, it couldn't happen under current conditions. > The amount of personal firepower that is easily accessible by everyone > is not sufficient to back up the soverignity of each individual. So, in your mind the only way to defend oneself is to have a bigger dick..um I mean gun than the other guy.... I've a couple of quotes for you to ponder: Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% persperation. T.E. Edison If Mr. Edison had though smarter he wouldn't have had to perspire as much. N. Tesla ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 18:11:06 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:11:06 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110156.TAA21708@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:00:44 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done > better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) > Roads are the easiest (assuming a government model) things to apply > road use taxes to, simply tax gasoline, oil, and tires. Scale your tire tax > based on weight and apply it to bicycles as well, then everyone (execpt > peds) who uses pays. Screw that, tax the shoes. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 18:12:14 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:12:14 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110151.TAA21565@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:39:05 GMT > From: Adam Back > Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) > Even when government does sub-contract, the inefficiency is usually I > think pretty horrendous by industry standards: The same can be said for business in general as well (especialy if there is no competition). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 18:12:33 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:12:33 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110138.TAA21400@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:33:04 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > Theft, violence and extortion are already legitimate, not only does > the government use them all the time, but corporations and indivuduals do > as well. True, at least under a democratic system we can prevent some of the more gross abuses by government and can address the inter-personal issues with something besides a nylon jacketed .357. Your anarcho-whatever doesn't even provide that. > There is no (or little) justice under the current system. When was > the last time a cop went to jail for a murder that he/she committed while > on duty. Is OJ behind bars? Several cops in Houston were fired (they got no-billed by the Grand Jury) just last week because of a similar issue. There are two cops here in Austin who went to jail because of a murder (they held a kid down on a water bed and he suffocated) charge. The current public overwatch group was the result of a police call that got out of hand last year and the police had two choices - either give the people what they asked for or end loose the civil rights case. The two cops who beat Rodney King ended up doing time. Nobody proved to the jury beyond a shadow of a doubt he was guilty. It is far better to let a dozen guilty men go free than to imprison a single innocent one. Our legal system may have its problem but I guarantee that a lot more guilty people get off scott free than innocent people end up in jail. There is more than a little justice under the current system (OJ being the perfect example - like it or not). > We have courts of Law, Justice is ashamed to show her face. Somehow I doubt that. If justice is ashamed of anything its that citizens of this country don't participate more and express their views with more conviction. > We recognize that these interactions exist, but guess what, for any > sort of anarchy to exist, it has to happen globally. We are as concerned > about the people on the other side of the planet as we are about the people > in the next city over. Just not much. Which, considering that anarchic systems permit murder, theft, rape, extortion, etc. without reprisal or limits, means that the vast majority of people are probably going to sleep a sounder sleep knowing they don't have to go out and buy a tank tomorrow just to make sure they have a home to come to in the evening. > No, we assume the opposite, that nothing works for large numbers of > people, and everyone should be free to find their own level. If nothing works for large numbers of people then why should this? Anarchy isn't freedom, it's opportunity to make huge profits with no responsiblity and at the expence of others (who are treated as a market commodity and not human beings). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at playboy.com Tue Nov 10 18:47:32 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:47:32 +0800 Subject: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful (fwd ) In-Reply-To: <3648A1A9.7DE1@lsil.com> Message-ID: At 4:11 PM -0500 11/10/98, Michael Motyka wrote: >> In the summer of 1984, 10th-grader Irwin Nanofsky and a >> friend were driving down the Apalachee Parkway on the way >> home from baseball practice when they were pulled over by >> a police officer for a minor traffic infraction. ... >> As policy analysts and hemp advocates alike have been >> quick to point out, the apparent legality (for now) of >> Nanofsky's "pot orange" may render debates over the >> legalization of marijuana moot. In fact, Florida's top >> law enforcement officials admit that even if the >> cultivation of Nanofsky's orange were to be outlawed, it >> would be exceedingly difficult to identify the presence >> of outlawed fruit among the state's largest agricultural >> crop. Once again technology makes the laws irrelevant. Gotta love it. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From magic3 at n2mail.com Wed Nov 11 10:56:58 1998 From: magic3 at n2mail.com (magic3 at n2mail.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:56:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: If you need a change of lifestyle, read on...... 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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 18:59:12 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:59:12 +0800 Subject: Question about insurance managed fire services... Message-ID: <199811110238.UAA22090@einstein.ssz.com> How does company A guarantee that company B won't begin to burn down the customers of company A so that the economic impact on A is sufficient they can't participate in the market? ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From riburr at shentel.net Tue Nov 10 19:00:54 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:00:54 +0800 Subject: Strange brew (was Off Topic But Truly Beautiful) In-Reply-To: <3648A1A9.7DE1@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3648F7C5.423923CE@shentel.net> Michael Motyka wrote: > Clyde wrote: > > > > Long but fascinating... > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 9 November 1998 > > > > DATELINE--Tallahassee, Fla. > > Oranges that get you high > > =========================== > > > > A Florida Biochemist designs a citrus tree with THC. [savagely pruned] > > Copyright 1994-98 San Francisco Bay Guardian. Satirization or prophesy, the walls are coming down. Whether they be the borders of nationstates or the dna of species, the boundaries that once defined are now dissolving. Look for transgenic terrorists to engineer terror down to the genetic level. Psilocybin from Saccharomyces, now that'll make a heady wine. Developments along these lines are advancing in Brazil and South Africa. Freeze dried packets (with psychedelic holographic label designs) are available via mail order to csychomimetic enologists. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 19:11:59 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:11:59 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters Message-ID: <199811110253.UAA22178@einstein.ssz.com> What would be the responce of a anarchic system that was based on profit in regards something like Mitch's impact on Ctl. America and their plea for food and aid? ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 19:34:06 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:34:06 +0800 Subject: secF9.html Message-ID: <199811110307.VAA22246@einstein.ssz.com> F.9 IS MEDIEVAL ICELAND AN EXAMPLE OF "ANARCHO"-CAPITALISM WORKING IN PRACTICE? Ironically, medieval Iceland is a good example of why "anarcho"-capitalism will not work, degenerating into de facto rule by the rich. It should be pointed out first that Iceland, nearly 1,000 years ago, was not a capitalistic system. In fact, like most cultures claimed by "anarcho"-capitalists as examples of their "utopia," it was a communal, not individualistic, society, based on artisan production, with extensive communal institutions as well as individual "ownership" (i.e. use) and a form of social self-administration, the thing -- both local and Iceland-wide -- which can be considered a "primitive" form of the anarchist communal assembly. As William Ian Miller points out "[p]eople of a communitarian nature. . . have reason to be attracted [to Medieval Iceland]. . . the limited role of lordship, the active participation of large numbers of free people . . . in decision making within and without the homestead. The economy barely knew the existence of markets. Social relations preceded economic relations. The nexus of household, kin, Thing, even enmity, more than the nexus of cash, bound people to each other. The lack of extensive economic differentiation supported a weakly differentiated class system . . . [and material] deprivations were more evenly distributed than they would be once state institutions also had to be maintained." [Bloodtaking and Peacemaking: Feud, Law and Society in Saga Iceland, p. 306] Kropotkin in Mutual Aid indicates that Norse society, from which the settlers in Iceland came, had various "mutual aid" institutions, including communal land ownership (based around what he called the "village community") and the thing (see also Kropotkin's The State: Its Historic Role for a discussion of the "village community"). It is reasonable to think that the first settlers in Iceland would have brought such institutions with them and Iceland did indeed have its equivalent of the commune or "village community," the Hreppar, which developed early in the country's history. Like the early local assemblies, it is not much discussed in the Sagas but is mentioned in the law book, the Gr�g�s, and was composed of a minimum of twenty farms and had a five member commission. The Hreppar was self-governing and, among other things, was responsible for seeing that orphans and the poor within the area were fed and housed. The Hreppar also served as a property insurance agency and assisted in case of fire and losses due to diseased livestock. The Hreppar may have also have organised and controlled summer grazing lands (which in turn suggests "commons" -- i.e. common land -- of some kind). Thus Icelandic society had a network of solidarity, based upon communal life. In practice this meant that "each commune was a mutual insurance company, or a miniature welfare state. And membership in the commune was not voluntary. Each farmer had to belong to the commune in which his farm was located and to contribute to its needs." [Gissurarson quoted by Birgit T. Runolfsson Solvason, Ordered Anarchy, State and Rent-Seeking: The Icelandic Commonwealth, 930-1262] However, unlike an anarchist society, the Icelandic Commonwealth did not allow farmers not to join its communes. Therefore, the Icelandic Commonwealth can hardly be claimed in any significant way as an example of "anarcho"-capitalism in practice. This can also be seen from the early economy, where prices were subject to popular judgement at the skuldaping ("payment-thing") not supply and demand. [Kirsten Hastrup, Culture and History in Medieval Iceland, p. 125] Indeed, with its communal price setting system in local assemblies, the early Icelandic commonwealth was more similar to Guild Socialism (which was based upon guild's negotiating "just prices" for goods and services) than capitalism. Therefore Miller correctly argues that it would be wrong to impose capitalist ideas and assumptions onto Icelandic society: "Inevitably the attempt was made to add early Iceland to the number of regions that socialised people in nuclear families within simple households. . . what the sources tell us about the shape of Icelandic householding must compel a different conclusion." [Op. Cit., p. 112] In other words, Kropotkin's analysis of communal society is far closer to the reality of Medieval Iceland than David Friedman's attempt in The Machinery of Freedom to turn it into a capitalist utopia. However, the communal nature of Icelandic society also co-existed (as in most such cultures) with hierarchical institutions, including some with capitalistic elements, namely private property and "private states" around the local godar. The godar were local chiefs who also took the role of religious leaders. As the Encyclopaedia Britannica explains, "a kind of local government was evolved [in Iceland] by which the people of a district who had most dealings together formed groups under the leadership of the most important or influential man in the district" (the godi). The godi "acted as judge and mediator" and "took a lead in communal activities" such as building places of worship. These "local assemblies. . . are heard of before the establishment of the althing" (the national thing). This althing led to co-operation between the local assemblies. Therefore we see communal self-management in a basic form, plus co-operation between communities as well. These communistic, mutual-aid features exist in many non-capitalist cultures and are often essential for ensuring the people's continued freedom within those cultures (section B.2.5 on why the wealthy undermine these popular "folk-motes" in favour of centralisation). Usually, the existence of private property (and so inequality) soon led to the destruction of communal forms of self-management (with participation by all male members of the community as in Iceland), which are replaced by the rule of the rich. While such developments are a commonplace in most "primitive" cultures, the Icelandic case has an unusual feature which explains the interest it provokes in "anarcho"-capitalist circles. This feature was that individuals could seek protection from any godi. As the Encyclopaedia Britannica puts it, "the extent of the godord [chieftancy] was not fixed by territorial boundaries. Those who were dissatisfied with their chief could attach themselves to another godi. . . As a result rivalry arose between the godar [chiefs]; as may be seen from the Icelandic Sagas." It is these Sagas on which David Friedman (in The Machinery of Freedom) bases his claim that Medieval Iceland is a working example of "anarcho" capitalism. Hence we can see that artisans and farmers would seek the "protection" of a godi, providing their labour in return. These godi would be subject to "market forces," as dissatisfied individuals could affiliate themselves to other godi. This system, however, had an obvious (and fatal) flaw. As the Encyclopaedia Britannica points out: "The position of the godi could be bought and sold, as well as inherited; consequently, with the passing of time, the godord for large areas of the country became concentrated in the hands of one man or a few men. This was the principal weakness of the old form of government: it led to a struggle of power and was the chief reason for the ending of the commonwealth and for the country's submission to the King of Norway." It was the existence of these hierarchical elements in Icelandic society that explain its fall from anarchistic to statist society. As Kropotkin argued "from chieftainship sprang on the one hand the State and on the other private property." [Act for Yourselves, p. 85] Kropotkin's insight that chieftainship is a transitional system has been confirmed by anthropologists studying "primitive" societies. They have come to the conclusion that societies made up of chieftainships or chiefdoms are not states: "Chiefdoms are neither stateless nor state societies in the fullest sense of either term: they are on the borderline between the two. Having emerged out of stateless systems, they give the impression of being on their way to centralised states and exhibit characteristics of both." [Y. Cohen quoted by Birgit T. Runolfsson Solvason, Op. Cit.] Since the Commonwealth was made up of chiefdoms, this explains the contradictory nature of the society - it was in the process of transition, from anarchy to statism, from a communal economy to one based on private property. The political transition within Icelandic society went hand in hand with an economic transition (both tendencies being mutually reinforcing). Initially, when Iceland was settled, large-scale farming based on extended households with kinsmen was the dominant economic mode. This semi-communal mode of production changed as the land was divided up (mostly through inheritance claims) between the 10th and 11th centuries. This new economic system based upon individual possession and artisan production was then slowly displaced by tenant farming, in which the farmer worked for a landlord, starting in the late 11th century. This economic system (based on a form of wage labour, i.e. capitalistic production) ensured that "great variants of property and power emerged." [Kirsten Hastrup, Culture and History in Medieval Iceland, pp. 172-173] During the 12th century wealth concentrated into fewer and fewer hands and by its end an elite of around 6 wealthy and powerful families had emerged. During this evolution in ownership patterns and the concentration of wealth and power into the hands of a few, we should note that the godi's and wealthy landowners' attitude to profit making also changed, with market values starting to replace those associated with honour, kin, and so on. Social relations became replaced by economic relations and the nexus of household, kin and Thing was replaced by the nexus of cash and profit. The rise of capitalistic social relationships in production and values within society was also reflected in exchange, with the local marketplace, with its pricing "subject to popular judgement" being "subsumed under central markets." [Ibid., p. 225] With a form of wage labour being dominant within society, it is not surprising that great differences in wealth started to appear. Also, as protection did not come free, it is not surprising that a godi tended to become rich also. This would enable him to enlist more warriors, which gave him even more social power (in Kropotkin's words, "the individual accumulation of wealth and power"). Powerful godi would be useful for wealthy landowners when disputes over land and rent appeared, and wealthy landowners would be useful for a godi when feeding his warriors. Production became the means of enriching the already wealthy, with concentrations of wealth producing concentrations of social and political power (and vice versa). Kropotkin's general summary of the collapse of "barbarian" society into statism seems applicable here - "after a hard fight with bad crops, inundations and pestilences, [farmers]. . . began to repay their debts, they fell into servile obligations towards the protector of the territory. Wealth undoubtedly did accumulate in this way, and power always follows wealth." [Mutual Aid, p. 131] The transformation of possession into property and the resulting rise of hired labour was a key element in the accumulation of wealth and power, and the corresponding decline in liberty among the farmers. Moreover, with hired labour springs dependency -- the worker is now dependent on good relations with their landlord in order to have access to the land they need. With such reductions in the independence of part of Icelandic society, the undermining of self-management in the various Things was also likely as labourers could not vote freely as they could be subject to sanctions from their landlord for voting the "wrong" way. Thus hierarchy within the economy would spread into the rest of society, and in particular its social institutions, reinforcing the effects of the accumulation of wealth and power. The resulting classification of Icelandic society played a key role in its move from relative equality and anarchy to a class society and statism. As Millar points out: "as long as the social organisation of the economy did not allow for people to maintain retinues, the basic egalitarian assumptions of the honour system. . . were reflected reasonably well in reality. . . the mentality of hierarchy never fully extricated itself from the egalitarian ethos of a frontier society created and recreated by juridically equal farmers. Much of the egalitarian ethic maintained itself even though it accorded less and less with economic realities. . . by the end of the commonwealth period certain assumptions about class privilege and expectations of deference were already well enough established to have become part of the lexicon of self-congratulation and self-justification." [Op. Cit., pp. 33-4] This process in turn accelerated the destruction of communal life and the emergence of statism, focused around the godord. In effect, the godi and wealthy farmers became rulers of the country and "the old form of government became modified in the course of time." This change from a communalistic, anarchistic society to a statist, propertarian one can also be seen from this quote from an article on Iceland by Hallberg Hallmundsson in the Encyclopaedia Americana, which identifies wealth concentration in fewer and fewer hands as having been responsible for undermining Icelandic society: "During the 12th century, wealth and power began to accumulate in the hands of a few chiefs, and by 1220, six prominent families ruled the entire country. It was the internecine power struggle among these families, shrewdly exploited by King Haakon IV of Norway, that finally brought the old republic to an end." This process, wherein the concentration of wealth leads to the destruction of communal life and so the anarchistic aspects of a given society, can be seen elsewhere, for example, in the history of the United States after the Revolution or in the degeneration of the free cities of Medieval Europe. Peter Kropotkin, in his classic work Mutual Aid, documents this process in some detail, in many cultures and time periods. However, that this process occurred in a society which is used by "anarcho"-capitalists as an example of their system in action reinforces the anarchist analysis of the statist nature of "anarcho"-capitalism and the deep flaws in its theory, as discussed in section F.6. As Miller argues, "[i]t is not the have-nots, after all, who invented the state. The first steps toward state formation in Iceland were made by churchmen. . . and by the big men content with imitating Norwegian royal style. Early state formation, I would guess, tended to involve redistributions, not from rich to poor, but from poor to rich, from weak to strong." [Op. Cit., p. 306] David Friedman is aware of how the Icelandic Republic degenerated and its causes. He states in a footnote in his 1979 essay "Private Creation and Enforcement of Law: A Historical Case" that the "question of why the system eventually broke down is both interesting and difficult. I believe that two of the proximate causes were increased concentration of wealth, and hence power, and the introduction into Iceland of a foreign ideology -- kingship. The former meant that in many areas all or most of the godord were held by one family and the latter that by the end of the Sturlung period the chieftains were no longer fighting over the traditional quarrels of who owed what to whom, but over who should eventually rule Iceland. The ultimate reasons for those changes are beyond the scope of this paper." However, from an anarchist point of view, the "foreign" ideology of kingship would be the product of changing socio-economic conditions that were expressed in the increasing concentration of wealth and not its cause. The settlers of Iceland were well aware of the "ideology" of kingship for the 300 years during which the Republic existed. However, only the concentration of wealth allowed would-be Kings the opportunity to develop and act and the creation of boss-worker social relationships on the land made the poor subject to, and familiar with, the concept of authority. Such familiarity would spread into all aspects of life and, combined with the existence of "prosperous" (and so powerful) godi to enforce the appropriate servile responses, ensured the end of the relative equality that fostered Iceland's anarchistic tendencies in the first place. In addition, as private property is a monopoly of rulership over a given area, the conflict between chieftains for power was, at its most basic, a conflict of who would own Iceland, and so rule it. The attempt to ignore the facts that private property creates rulership (i.e. a monopoly of government over a given area) and that monarchies are privately owned states does Friedman's case no good. In other words, the system of private property has a built in tendency to produce both the ideology and fact of Kingship - the power structures implied by Kingship are reflected in the social relations which are produced by private property. Friedman is also aware that an "objection [to his system] is that the rich (or powerful) could commit crimes with impunity, since nobody would be able to enforce judgement against them. Where power is sufficiently concentrated this might be true; this was one of the problems which led to the eventual breakdown of the Icelandic legal system in the thirteenth century. But so long as power was reasonably dispersed, as it seem to have been for the first two centuries after the system was established, this was a less serious problem." [Op. Cit.] Which is quite ironic. Firstly, because the first two centuries of Icelandic society was marked by non-capitalist economic relations (communal pricing and family/individual possession of land). Only when capitalistic social relationships developed (hired labour and property replacing possession and market values replacing social ones) in the 12th century did power become concentrated, leading to the breakdown of the system in the 13th century. Secondly, because Friedman is claiming that "anarcho"-capitalism will only work if there is an approximate equality within society! But this state of affairs is one most "anarcho"-capitalists claim is impossible and undesirable! They claim there will always be rich and poor. But inequality in wealth will also become inequality of power. When "actually existing" capitalism has become more free market the rich have got richer and the poor poorer. Apparently, according to the "anarcho"-capitalists, in an even "purer" capitalism this process will be reversed! It is ironic that an ideology that denounces egalitarianism as a revolt against nature implicitly requires an egalitarian society in order to work. In reality, wealth concentration is a fact of life in any system based upon hierarchy and private property. Friedman is aware of the reasons why "anarcho"-capitalism will become rule by the rich but prefers to believe that "pure" capitalism will produce an egalitarian society! In the case of the commonwealth of Iceland this did not happen - the rise in private property was accompanied by a rise in inequality and this lead to the breakdown of the Republic into statism. In short, Medieval Iceland nicely illustrates David Weick's comments (as quoted in section F.6.3) that "when private wealth is uncontrolled, then a police-judicial complex enjoying a clientele of wealthy corporations whose motto is self-interest is hardly an innocuous social force controllable by the possibility of forming or affiliating with competing 'companies.'" This is to say that "free market" justice soon results in rule by the rich, and being able to affiliate with "competing" "defence companies" is insufficient to stop or change that process. This is simply because any defence-judicial system does not exist in a social vacuum. The concentration of wealth -- a natural process under the "free market" (particularly one marked by private property and wage labour) -- has an impact on the surrounding society. Private property, i.e. monopolisation of the means of production, allows the monopolists to become a ruling elite by exploiting, and so accumulating vastly more wealth than, the workers. This elite then uses its wealth to control the coercive mechanisms of society (military, police, "private security forces," etc.), which it employs to protect its monopoly and thus its ability to accumulate ever more wealth and power. Thus, private property, far from increasing the freedom of the individual, has always been the necessary precondition for the rise of the state and rule by the rich. Medieval Iceland is a classic example of this process at work. From bix at geekforce.org Tue Nov 10 19:49:38 1998 From: bix at geekforce.org (b!X) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:49:38 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed In-Reply-To: <199811102122.NAA18762@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. (And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS list of all places). - b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 19:53:39 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:53:39 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) Message-ID: <199811110331.VAA22384@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:25:40 -0800 (PST) > From: b!X > Subject: Re: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed > Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment > contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. > > (And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS > list of all places). ARTICLE I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ARTICLE II. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. I'd say that 'shall make no law' is a clear as 'shall not be infringed' and pretty equivalent in meaning. See, no shit-storm (they reserve that for me...;). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Tue Nov 10 20:10:48 1998 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:10:48 +0800 Subject: More on blind signal demodulation Message-ID: <91075612418242@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> There's at least one firm which makes this stuff commercially, their products are available via http://www.appsig.com/prods/index.html. This looks like a one-stop ECHELON shop: you take one or more of their products (pick your type, intended target, and budget), plug as many E1's or E3's or whatever into one side as you can handle (the most impressive one does 16 E3's or 7680 voice/ data channels) and all modem, fax, and voice comms going through the circuit are available on the other side. They have products to do automatic channel/ signal scanning, demuxing, decoding of various data formats, processing of satellite and radio signals ("combines tuning, demodulation, descrambling, decoding, demultiplexing, and output formatting in one chassis"), every kind of mobile phone signal you've ever heard of, digital microwave links, decoding of higher-level protocols like V.42/V.42bis, X.25, HDLC, PPP, every Internet protocol worth doing, etc etc (their terminology is pretty neat, they have for example a 1.5-44.7Mbps "modem for on-the-move applications" :-). Much of the hardware claims to be built to TEMPEST specs. One interesting point is that most of their stuff is for E1's and E3's even though they're a US company. Hmmm.... Peter. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 10 20:40:14 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:40:14 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can call it that) [CNN] Message-ID: <199811110414.WAA22671@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.cnn.com/US/9811/10/kennedy.testimony.ap/ > STAMFORD, Connecticut (AP) -- A Florida judge on Tuesday ordered the > elderly brother of Ethel Kennedy to testify before a Connecticut grand > jury investigating a 1975 slaying in which his two sons are suspects. > > Rushton Skakel, 74, of Hobe Sound, Florida, was ordered to testify > about what he knows about the slaying of Martha Moxley, a 15-year-old > Greenwich girl who was bludgeoned to death with a golf club. ... > The case stalled for years but was revived this spring by the > appointment of a grand jury consisting of a single judge. [remainder deleted] Now if that isn't unconstitutional I don't know what is. He and his lawyer should be screaming bloody murder (figuratively). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 10 20:56:19 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:56:19 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed In-Reply-To: <199811102122.NAA18762@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 7:25 PM -0800 11/10/98, b!X wrote: >Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment >contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. > >(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS >list of all places). > No, you are welcome to _say_ damned near anything you want to say. However, graduate from _saying_ things to grabbing our guns, that's when you'll need killing. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 10 22:18:11 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:18:11 +0800 Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Foregone)(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811100027.AAA07402@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <199811110544.GAA28375@replay.com> Adam Back wrote: > What is annoying is "charity" (social security) at the point of a gun. > Our "conscience" is being decided by government which is acting as a > broker for those lobby for their "need" and for your assets to be > stolen and redistributed to them. > > What people aren't willing to pay for shouldn't happen. Period. If > that means people starve well those complaining loudest had better > dig deeper into their pockets. Imagine one of your kids had an accident and needed more expensive care than you can pay for. Would you accept government "charity"? From jake116 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 10 23:18:14 1998 From: jake116 at hotmail.com (jake) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:18:14 +0800 Subject: Important news from DAVOC (-flash3 site-) Message-ID: <419.436109.95012708jake116@hotmail.com> Greetings from the Underground...... this message is presented to you by the U.S. http://www.DAVOC.com From howree at cable.navy.mil Wed Nov 11 00:39:56 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:39:56 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110156.TAA21708@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111181139.0087e1a0@205.83.192.13> At 07:56 PM 11/10/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:00:44 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: Re: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done >> better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) > >> Roads are the easiest (assuming a government model) things to apply >> road use taxes to, simply tax gasoline, oil, and tires. Scale your tire tax >> based on weight and apply it to bicycles as well, then everyone (execpt >> peds) who uses pays. > >Screw that, tax the shoes. And every man (and woman) will be come a cobbler,,, Reeza! If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From howree at cable.navy.mil Wed Nov 11 00:47:00 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:47:00 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed In-Reply-To: <199811102122.NAA18762@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111182325.00879d50@205.83.192.13> At 07:25 PM 11/10/98 -0800, b!X wrote: >Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment >contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. Observe: --begin pasted text-- Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Amendment II A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. --end pasted text-- While the 2nd does say "well regulated", it should also be pointed out that the 1st does not say "right OF THE PEOPLE", except in the freedom of assembly clause. >(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS >list of all places). So why did you? Reeza! If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From declan at well.com Wed Nov 11 05:44:25 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:44:25 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811111320.FAA09439@smtp.well.com> Without endorsing Tim's "need killing" views, I would like to point out that Mr. b!X has a deeply flawed understanding of the Second Amendment and constitutional history. -Declan At 08:35 PM 11-10-98 -0800, Tim May wrote: >At 7:25 PM -0800 11/10/98, b!X wrote: >>Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment >>contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. >> >>(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS >>list of all places). >> > >No, you are welcome to _say_ damned near anything you want to say. > >However, graduate from _saying_ things to grabbing our guns, that's when >you'll need killing. > > >--Tim May > >Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. >---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- >Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, >ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero >W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, >Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > From bix at geekforce.org Wed Nov 11 05:44:59 1998 From: bix at geekforce.org (b!X) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:44:59 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111182325.00879d50@205.83.192.13> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Reeza! wrote: > Amendment I > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or > prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, > or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to > petition the Government for a redress of grievances. > > Amendment II > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, > the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. > > --end pasted text-- > > While the 2nd does say "well regulated", it should also be pointed out that > the 1st does not say "right OF THE PEOPLE", except in the freedom of > assembly clause. And notice also that the 1st begins with "Congress shall make no law" while the 2nd begins with "a well regulated militia". > >(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS > >list of all places). > > So why did you? Becos the attempted paraody was lame in the same ways that all attempts to nonrationally support 2nd amendment freedoms by calling down the gods of 1st amendment freeomds always are nonrational. (And no, that's not me saying supporting 2nd amendment freedoms is irrational; it's me saying using the 1st amendment to do so is irrational). - b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) From bix at geekforce.org Wed Nov 11 05:46:37 1998 From: bix at geekforce.org (b!X) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:46:37 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110331.VAA22384@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > > Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment > > contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. > > > > (And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS > > list of all places). > > > ARTICLE I. > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, > or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of > speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, > and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. > > ARTICLE II. > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a > free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be > infringed. > > > I'd say that 'shall make no law' is a clear as 'shall not be infringed' and > pretty equivalent in meaning. Same comments as before. Utiizing the text of the 1st to defend one's approach to the 2nd is nonrational, which is what the lame parody attempted to do, and what I was criticizing. - b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 05:51:06 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:51:06 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) Message-ID: <199811111333.HAA23673@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:27:11 -0800 (PST) > From: b!X > Subject: Re: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed > And notice also that the 1st begins with "Congress shall make no law" while > the 2nd begins with "a well regulated militia". > Becos the attempted paraody was lame in the same ways that all attempts to Hey, can I use that spelling of 'because'? I want to irritate a particular wanna-be-english-teacher subsribed to the CDR...;) > nonrationally support 2nd amendment freedoms by calling down the gods of 1st > amendment freeomds always are nonrational. (And no, that's not me saying > supporting 2nd amendment freedoms is irrational; it's me saying using the > 1st amendment to do so is irrational). Yep, you have to use the 9th and 10th as well. In for a penny end for a pound. ARTICLE IX. The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ARTICLE X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 11 05:52:39 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:52:39 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters Message-ID: <199811111339.OAA22865@replay.com> Jim Choate writes: > > What would be the responce of a anarchic system that was based on profit in > regards something like Mitch's impact on Ctl. America and their plea for > food and aid? `Their plea for food and aid' is just that: a plea; it no more creates an _obligation_ to help them than my plea for your money to help rebuild my burned-down house should. Still, in an anarcho-capitalistic system, Mitch would be responded to by private individuals through charitable aid organizations such as the Red Cross (much as it is now). Your asking the question implies that you believe we have or should have an obligation to help Mitch's victims; one that justifies the use of tax money - money that is, in effect, collected at gunpoint from all of us citizen units. By the way, since you're so fond of quoting the US Constitution, please show where the document authorizes the Men With Guns to take their captives'^H^H^H^H^H^Hcitizens' money and give it away to help victims of natural disasters in foreign countries. (Also consider that Mitch is merely one in a long line of natural disasters that have been and continue to be inflicted on various peoples of the world. Some we hear about and some we don't, based on the vagaries of the news media's inclinations and their judgement of how interested the American public will be. We don't end up bailing them all out; only those which one politician or another has decided will make them look `compassionate'. If an equivalent disaster occurred in a less favored nation - say, an earthquake in Iran - you can bet that the US's governmental response would be much less generous.) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 05:55:28 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:55:28 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) Message-ID: <199811111335.HAA23736@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:30:22 -0800 (PST) > From: b!X > Subject: Re: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) > > I'd say that 'shall make no law' is a clear as 'shall not be infringed' and > > pretty equivalent in meaning. > > Same comments as before. Utiizing the text of the 1st to defend one's > approach to the 2nd is nonrational, which is what the lame parody attempted > to do, and what I was criticizing. I'm not using the 1st to justify the second, all I'm saying is the two related phrases are equivalent within the context of the Constitution. It's semantics. Or are you saying that if you go slow enough it's as good as a stop? How slow is slow enough? ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 11 06:06:14 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:06:14 +0800 Subject: Question about insurance managed fire services... Message-ID: <199811111350.OAA23569@replay.com> Jim Choate writes: > > How does company A guarantee that company B won't begin to burn down the > customers of company A so that the economic impact on A is sufficient they > can't participate in the market? How does it do so now? Fucking idiot. Do you imagine that the customers of company A (and their police, security force or other guardian) will stand idly by while their homes (the implied target) are burned? From sorens at workmail.com Wed Nov 11 06:15:28 1998 From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:15:28 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) In-Reply-To: <199811102039.UAA09523@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <3649A4FF.3631965C@workmail.com> Adam Back wrote: > > Vladimir Nuri writes: > > the distinction between govt and business is sometimes an > > arbitrary one. for example govt agencies typically contract > > with private companies to perform govt services. a massive > > example of this is the defense industry. what I would tend > > to propose is a system where this is augmented and finetuned > > to the point the govt become a very efficient sorting mechanism > > for channeling money to businesses that are the most efficient. > > Even when government does sub-contract, the inefficiency is usually I > think pretty horrendous by industry standards: > ... > ... > > it really does seem to me like there is a legitimate role for a > > certain amount of money to be collected for govt service. > > I think you can privatise everything. Things which are called natural > monopolies could be managed by trade organisations or companies > bidding for management getting efficiency related fees. Why should > politicians and the rest manage roads, why not a company. > > > imho it is far, far less than whatis being collected today. > > zero I think woudl be best, or very very close. > > > if taxes were 5-10% people wouldn't give as much a damn about the > > govt and how it worked. > > What all could you spend 5-10% of GNP on that couldn't be privatised? > Sounds like an awful lot of legalised theft yet! > > > libertarians tend to be awfully realistic some times. who pays for > > roads when everyone uses them? > > don't pay not allowed to use. not everyone uses them to drive cars > on. > > There is a real live example of this kind of transition. New Zealand. New Zealand is the nation that coined the term 'cradle to grave socialism' (and also the first to offer women the vote -- coincidence?). In 1986, the country was as close to bankrupt as was possible to be. The socialists were ousted and taxes slashed from 60+% to 28%. A GST was introduced, government monopolies were sold off -- mail delivery, post offices, power generation, water supplies, telephone service, ports, airports, medical, road maintenance etc. Military investment was reduced to a coast guard and a professional infrastructure required for UN involvement. The (almost) immediate result of this divestiture, was for affluence to skyrocket due to the release of the entrepreneurial spirit (remember the kiwi-fruit?) By the early '90s New Zealand was upgraded from 17th standard of living in the world, to 3rd. Since then, taxes have been cut thrice more. Currently income taxes are at 21% and plans have been made to eliminate them entirely in '00. The entire economy is supported by the GST of 12.5% (consumption tax). Welfare still exists, although the population is steadily being weaned off it. Most of the diehard dole-bludgers have moved to Australia (coinciding with a move of many businesses from Australia in the reverse direction), which still has a 45% income tax rate to support them. Much to the chagrin of the doomsaying socialists, the standard of living actually improved for all the population. The atmosphere of economic repression was replaced by cheerful optimism within 6 months of the transition, and has been growing ever since. Currently, along with Argentina, New Zealand is the only other country in the world to be in the black. Income taxes were kept on solely for the purpose of eliminating foreign debt. This is due to be completed by '00. The change in people's attitudes has been radical. During the latest asian economic crisis, New Zealand found itself severely affected by the decrease in its markets. Rather than a return to printing money and increased taxation, New Zealand has further reduced its tax burden in the belief that the free market will find the correct solution. One other interesting change happened at the same time as the above. During the post world war II period, New Zealand (and Australia) were afflicted by something that was known down-under as the 'English disease' -- viz: trade unionism. This second government was virtually abolished in New Zealand by the passing of the Employment Contracts Act of 1986. Under this act, all people are considered to be self-employed in the sense that everyone has the right to negotiate their own employment contract, or to collectively bargain as they see fit. What this means, is that there is no single standard of employer to employee relationship defined by the government (or trade union). For a corporation to require exclusivity of its hired help is considered to be an invalid employment contract under the act. Consequently, becoming an 'employee' in this sense implies that the income, derived from such employment, is tax free. This has been tested in the courts successfully on a number of occasions. Several benefits have ensued from this: firstly, everyone has developed an understanding of how to organize their own financial affairs to minimize their tax burden; secondly, being self-employed means the 20% tax rate can be largely reduced through business write-offs; thirdly, negotiation of contracts, in such an atmosphere, has largely eliminated the 'us and them' mentality between the corporation and the worker. Now it is just a lot of independent co-operating peer companies; fourthly, because there are no 'bosses' as such, people have a lot more latitude on how and where they perform their work. This has led to an incredible amount of home office and business de-centralization and flexibility. Its not yet perfect by libertarian standards, but the direction has been chosen towards a model of government limited to an arbitration function and to provide a common foreign policy. My belief is that the creation of a libertarian environment in the US, is unlikely without much social disruption and bloodshed. Similarly for the EU. A more productive course of action is for libertarian minded folk, to relocate themselves to countries that are amenable to such changes in direction (Max! where can we go? Argentina maybe?), and work to effect the creation of a showcase example of how it can work in practise. With the examples of New Zealand and Argentina and the growth in their stability and affluence, this would be a constructive means of affirming your libertarian beliefs, without violating the principle of not initiating force, fraud or coercion. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 06:21:55 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:21:55 +0800 Subject: Question about insurance managed fire services... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811111402.IAA24089@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:50:12 +0100 > From: Anonymous > Subject: Re: Question about insurance managed fire services... > Jim Choate writes: > > > > How does company A guarantee that company B won't begin to burn down the > > customers of company A so that the economic impact on A is sufficient they > > can't participate in the market? > > How does it do so now? Insurance regulatory agencies who monitor the behavior, investigation by a reasonably impartial fire dept after every fire. That's at least two. > Fucking idiot. Do you imagine that the customers of company A (and > their police, security force or other guardian) will stand idly by > while their homes (the implied target) are burned? What police and security forces? You mean the ones the same insurance company co-oped? What makes you thing that Company A or B will even advertise their actions? Who says the homes will be burned when the residents are even home? It isn't like anyone is going to ask their permission. And I'm the 'fucking idiot'. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 11 06:33:24 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:33:24 +0800 Subject: DCSB: Risk Management is Where the Money Is; Trust in DigitalCommerce Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: DCSB: Risk Management is Where the Money Is; Trust in Digital Commerce Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:40:49 -0500 From: Dan Geer Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Dan Geer -----------------8<----------------cut-here----------------8<----------------- Nominal delivery draft ------------------------------------- Risk Management is Where the Money Is ------------------------------------- Digital Commerce Society of Boston 3 November 98 Daniel E. Geer, Jr., Sc.D. Senior Strategist, CertCo, Inc. 55 Broad Street, NYC, and 100 Cambridgepark Drive, Cambridge geer at certco.com Given my biases, I am going to describe where the future of the security marketplace is and where it is not. I will argue that the financial community is and remains the place to look for "first light" for new security technology. I will give you a rundown of what's new while I predict what little time is left for many of today's products, purveyors and regulators. I will argue that, in many ways, the party's over for the security field as we know it now. I will range broadly because security, as a concept, is universal. "Nothing is so powerful as an idea whose time has come." For security technology, that time is now. IBM calls the three requirements of the "e-business" future as: #1 security, #2 scalability, and #3 integration. Forrester, Gartner, META, Yankee and all the other analysts agree -- the most important enabling technology for electronic business, besides network connectivity itself, is security. AD Little estimates that security, privacy and the legal issues of digital signature together constitute over half of the quantifiable barriers to electronic commerce. There are whole venture funds whose investment focus is around security. Security startups are everywhere; so are security books. The word "security" is hardly rare in employment advertisements. You cannot walk a trade show and not see the word "security" in screaming big type. The number of security meetings is preposterous. Presidential Commissions are busy spending real money on security for the information systems that run the country. "In the future, everyone will each get 15 minutes of fame." That applies to security,too. Today's security specialty companies cannot all survive; they can be eclipsed by the platform vendors too easily. Only platform vendors can deliver security that is integrated enough to scale and invisible enough to ignore. Even the Justice Department knows that once something is in the operating system, any independent market for it collapses. Yes, security's time may well have come, but in a Warhol world, that would mean that it is about time to go. The focus of "security" research today is the study of "trust management" -- how trust is defined, created, annotated, propagated, circumscribed, stored, exchanged, accounted for, recalled and adjudicated in our electronic world. This is natural because security is a means and not an end. This is mature because all technology differentiates along cost-benefit lines. All the security technology that you can buy today enables some aspect of trust management and novel variations show up daily. You can walk out of this hall and buy systems that use passwords that get local machines to trust you enough to let you in. You can buy smart cards that can do your cryptographic calculations for you, respond to challenges, hold your keys inviolable or, more interestingly, have identities of their own and serve merely to introduce you on their own terms. You can buy biometric devices that look at your voice, your face, your retina, your fingerprint, or even the idiosyncrasies of how you learned to type and so say, "Yep, that's the guy." You can get systems that are sufficiently hardened that you can rely on them if for no other reason they are so nearly useless no one would want to break in. You can still get your hands on security systems in the raw and roll your own directly from source-code. You can, anywhere, anytime, spin-up virtual private networks that are trustworthy protectors of your confidentiality however hostile the intervening wires are. You can even deliver privacy between strangers -- nearly a matter of creating trust in order to propagate it. You can put a document into the Eternity Service and trust that it can never be erased or you can put it into a cryptographic file system and trust that it can never be found. Simple? Yes; academics and entrepreneurs alike are busy supplying ways to propagate trust. They have it all wrong. If you ever took a course in probability then you know that many problems are solved by calculating their dual -- the probability of "not X" can be a whole lot more tractable than figuring Pr(X) directly. If you're in a security-based startup company, then you'll know that making money requires making excitement, even if the excitement is somebody else's public humiliation. And all of you can agree that the more important something is, the more it must be managed. Trust management is surely exciting, but like most exciting ideas it is unimportant. What is important is risk management, the sister, the dual of trust management. And because risk management makes money, it drives the security world from here on out. Every financial firm of any substance has a formal Risk Management Department that consumes a lion's share of the corporate IT budget. The financial world in its entirety is about packaging risk so that it can be bought and sold, i.e., so that risk can be securitized and finely enough graded to be managed at a profit. Everything from the lowly car loan to the most exotic derivative security is a risk-reward tradeoff. Don't for a minute underestimate the amount of money to be made on Wall Street, London and/or Tokyo when you can invent a new way to package risk. The impact of Moore's Law on the financial world is inestimable -- computing has made that world rich because it has enabled risk packaging to grow ever more precise, ever more real-time, ever more differentiated, ever more manageable. You don't have to understand forward swaptions, collateralized mortgage obligations, yield burning, or anything else to understand that risk management is where the money is. In a capitalist world, if something is where the money is, that something rules. Risk is that something. Security technology has heretofore been about moving trust around as if risk is definitionally undesirable and reliable trust management simply obviates the issue of risk. It does not come close. In two years time the "trust-hauling" market will be somewhere on the down-slope between legacy and dead. Risk management is going to take over as the dominant paradigm because risk management can subsume trust, but trust management cannot subsume risk. The Internet has made this so. The Internet is irresistible because it lowers barriers to entry on a global basis -- global in both space and time. Ever more important parts of the world's economy exist only in cyberspace, and lead times have entirely collapsed. Every professional fortune teller is bidding geometric increases in the dollar volume of electronic commercial activity. But when there is enough booty available, even absurdly difficult attacks become plausible. This is the world we are in. It will never be possible to really do the job of trust management any more than it is possible to really win an arms race or really preclude your car from being stolen. But risk management -- that is doable and it is doable at a profit. The proof is all around us. We are a score of years down this road. 1978 was a vintage security year; the remarkable papers by Rivest, Shamir & Adleman and Needham & Schroeder were published, both in CACM as it happens. The former introduced public key ideas and the latter created Kerberos. The counterpoint between these two technologies is instructive. Both symmetric cryptosystems, like Kerberos, and asymmetric cryptosystems, like RSA, do the same thing -- that is to say they do key distribution -- but the semantics are quite different. The fundamental security-enabling activity of a secret key system is to issue fresh keys at low latency and on demand. The fundamental security-enabling activity of an asymmetric key system is to verify the as-yet-unrevoked status of a key already in circulation, again with low latency and on demand. This is key management and it is a systems cost; a secret key system like Kerberos has incurred nearly all its costs by the moment of key issuance. By contrast, a public key system incurs nearly all its costs with respect to key revocation. Hence, a rule of thumb: The cost of key issuance plus the cost of key revocation is a constant, just yet another version of "You can pay me now or you can pay me later." Because of the tradeoffs between who pays for what part of the systems cost and who gets the benefit, secret key systems and public key systems have different fields of use. Secret key systems are fast and offer revocation at no marginal cost. Public key systems are slow but they enable digital signature and thus enable proof of action, non-repudiation as it is called. Secret key systems are the default choice within an organization while public key systems are the default choice between organizations, i.e., secret key for where security is an intramural concern intramurally arbitrated, and public key for where security is extramural thereby requiring recourse to a third party judge in cases of dispute. The relentless blurring of what is intramural and what is extramural will favor public key over time. Because a trust management paradigm says that a digital signature is only as valid as the key (in which it was signed) was at the moment of signature, it is only as good as the procedural perfection of the certificate issuer and the timely transmission of any subsequent revocation. **These are high costs.** In fact, the true costs of general public key infrastructure are so extraordinarily high that only our collective ignorance of those costs permits us to propel ourselves toward a general PKI as if it were a panacea. When, not if, the user community at large realizes this, we "security people" will have but two choices, compromise on (gloss over) the quality of trust that public key can deliver or back off from the claims of full trust cheap. In other words, we'll have to fit the benefit to the endurable cost or fit the cost to the requisite benefit. Since, as a rule of thumb, to halve the probability of loss you have to at least double the cost of countermeasures, any finite tolerance of cost means an upper bound on how much security you can get. In the fullness of time, security technology will be evaluated on the same cost-benefit-risk tradeoff on which other technologies are evaluated. This is the price of maturity; this is the price not yet paid. Do not misunderstand me; public key technology, secret key technology, security technology in general are daily reaching new levels of protective capability. What they cannot protect against is being over-sold, and they are being over-sold. Why is that? The days when the Internet was a toy are gone even if a high percentage of its new investors are still coming in merely to avoid looking dowdy. The real question on the table is: When does the Internet become more like the data center. And what does making the Internet more like the data center mean? At a minimum, it means metered use. Discussions are already widespread about requiring Internet postage; large ISPs will probably demand it, existing postal services would love to sell it and data centers, such as the financial giants, will get a better handle on what goes in and out the door. At least one Wall Street bank already does charge-back for network bandwidth consumption and their internal electronic security regime plays a role in assigning those costs just as, in turn, their security group manages the user database via incremental updates rather than fresh full copies so as to minimize their bandwidth charges. That's not postage, but it is close and it is now. Incremental use charges are but one example, interesting mostly because they are a near term step toward making the Internet into a data center. The fundamental value of the data center is the information it holds. The past few years have seen data warehousing, data mining and now connection of the data center to the Web, data publishing if you will. MVS, for example, has a really good web server and someone in the audience will have to convince me that there is a difference between a 1970's central time-share machine and an MVS web server in a swarm of "thin clients" on fast networks. It certainly isn't the direct wire connection -- SSL simulates that well enough. It surely isn't the management model; the MIS director who had declared defeat in desktop configuration management will, you can be sure, rejoice at getting control back. In the mainframe world, you move the computation to where the data is. In a client server world, you move the data to where the computation is. Web servers front-ending corporate databases attached to virtual private networks full of some universal client like a web browser sure sounds like a resurgence of the data center to me. The IBM 390 is a good machine and the Wintel cartel has pretty much ensured that no upstart will enter their space. From Wintel's point of view, using all those desktop cycles for display functions is just fine. Could it be that simple? Financial markets made SUN what it is today and vice versa -- SUN's first big win, the first big demonstration that computing power had risen to such a degree that moving the data to where the computing is made sense, "the network is the computer" and all that. Financial markets, in the sense of traders going head to head, used that power to replace whom you knew with what you know and set off a technology-as-weapon metaphor that has overtaken most of the business world. Financial Markets, in the sense of Exchanges, now rely on a dense spread of computing that exceeds what most of us have to deal with; more than one major bank has 15,000 FTP jobs a night just moving data to or from its data center. Plenty of staff at the NYSE lose $1000 apiece for every 15 minutes the Exchange is late opening due to IT unavailability. No computing equipment is too expensive when trumped with "I can make that back on the first trade." No small country runs its currency anymore. There was once no question that the fundamental purpose of an exchange was to provide "an advantage of time and place" to those who would trade on it and, in so doing, establish efficiency and liquidity baselines against which others would be judged. Beginning first with the "Paperwork Crisis" in the 60's and reaching a crescendo after the "Crash of '87," the Exchanges have been fully committed to electronic commerce before that phrase meant anything. But since the Internet, time and place are meaningless and the Exchanges know it. They are working hard to make oversight, fair play and quality of service into new baselines. Clearly, security technology is #1 in their list of requirements followed closely by scalability and integration. Security in a financial world market that is both nowhere and everywhere is a difficult thing to define well enough to solve, but if there is anything to engineering as a discipline then it is that the heavy work is in getting the problem statement right. So, to return to my central premise, if new security technology is a result of investment and if the investment in security technology is naturally centered within the financial community, what is the problem statement? ** If we get that right, we can predict the future. ** I submit that the problem statement is how to bring a transactional semantic to the Internet. This is not a new problem, but it is an as yet unsolved one. The existing financial markets want transactions because transactions are what they are about and transactions are what they know. Upstarts like the payment vendors want to be the first to deliver transactions and disintermediate the financial firms. Technical legal beagles reason that there is no transaction without recourse, no recourse without contract, no contract without non-repudiation and no non-repudiation without digital signature. Anyone who wants to do business on the Web needs transactions. Hal Varian, an economist and Dean of the Information Management School at Berkeley, taught me that what the Internet changes more than anything else is that it brings the efficiency of auction to markets that never had that option. This is a cover story in this week's "The Industry Standard." Auctions need security technology because what makes an auction an auction is the ability to conclude a transaction which, by its own execution, "discovers" a price. In other words, the nature of the world's economy is changed by the existence of the Internet, but only on the condition that electronic transactions are up to job. So what do I mean by "transaction?" I mean a non-repudiable communication between two parties who can each verify the time-, value- and content-integrity of that communication, who can presume confidentiality of that communication, who can verify the authenticity and authorization of their counterparty and who can present all these evidences to third party adjudication should there be a need for recourse at any arbitrary time in the future. **Every single part of that definition begs the question of security mechanism.** It is on that basis I claim that the security technology of tomorrow will be crafted in response to the unmet needs of financial markets today. As an example, your handwritten signature on a check is what, in principle, authorizes that funds move from A to B. In truth, from a bank's point of view, actually verifying handwritten signatures is a transaction cost that is not worth bearing unless the cost of verification is less than the risk of loss. At the largest banks, the threshold dollar amount below which verification does not really happen is a closely guarded number, but it generally exceeds $20,000 and still they have platoons of people doing this all day, every day. Converting the means of signature verification from a manual process into a machine-able one would radically change the economics of check processing. It would add billions to lines and do it from the cost-avoidance side of the ledger. But that is not all. Some $300B of U.S. payments are made every day of which only $60B are in the form of checks; the balance is largely in cash transactions of $5 or less. From both the merchant's and the bank's perspectives, getting rid of cash would be a huge win because handling costs for small dollar amounts often exceed the profit margins on the underlying sales. While the consumer may well adopt cashless payment out of some sense of convenience, the financial side of the house will enable it to avoid costs. Only this morning, Frost & Sullivan released a study that defines e-commerce as "commercial transactions taking place over the Internet with exchange of value in real time." Web payment sparked numerous startups with numerous different mechanisms. It is too late for you to enter this market, but it is not too late for those payment-systems vendors to rethink what they are trying to do. All of them are suffering because the volume of Web-based retail business has not picked up as fast as their business plans had presumed. For the retail customer, the main thing the Web offers is product discovery; a good print catalog and an 800 number are otherwise hard to beat. It is clear that the real money in Web commerce is in business-to-business commerce, but there the supply chain has a lot more complication and the kinds of security mechanisms need to be better than those for buying a toaster oven. Whereas retail commerce is about small dollar amounts and stranger-to-stranger transactions through a financial intermediary like a credit-card company, business-to-business is more about relationships, the dollar value of the sale is much bigger, and banks play a direct role (through letters of credit, collateralized bills of lading, etc.) B2B commerce does not have a good solution yet. If you want to sell into this market, be aware that the customer will buy either to avoid costs he has now or to make revenue he doesn't have yet. In the case of saving costs, you'll have to sell him the technology on a turnkey basis -- he will not cut you into the transactional revenue stream. If you can really show that your technology will make him revenue he did not have a chance to make otherwise, you may be able to get a piece of the revenue stream, but do not underestimate the cost-avoidance focus of big buyers and sellers. As far out as 2005, over half the Internet-transactions will be transactions converted from paper and credit/debit cards, not new transactions. **When selling into a cost-averse market you automate rather than revolutionize, and you do not get a piece of the action.** Everyone likes to talk about "disintermediating the banks," that is making the intermediary role of banks in commerce less essential by performing that service in some other way. Bill Gates is widely quoted as saying that "Banks are dinosaurs." At the highest end, they are not dinosaurs and they are not about to be disintermediated. Whilst the banks have a natural affection for their income streams, that doesn't prevent disintermediation. Most wiseguys trying to disintermediate the banks misunderstand what banks do. This is what they do: They interpose their balance sheet between the expectations of the counterparties to a transaction and the risk of default on either of their parts. They undertake stop-loss protections against credit risk, insolvency, operational failure, currency fluctuation, diversion of funds delivery, etc. In other words, they manage risk because they can absorb loss. **Electronic commerce payment technology cannot absorb loss, so it cannot and will not disintermediate the banks.** Think of this this way: All public key technology is driven to make a digital signature verifiable, i.e., it is about quality control and guarantee on the signature itself. This is a stunning thing, but it is not the whole equation. The intermediation role that banks play is to guarantee the transaction, i.e., it is broader than just the verification of a signature. The bank's know-how and its balance sheet are not something that can be replaced by a cryptographic calculation. The ability to avoid loss never makes up for the ability to absorb loss. The cryptography guarantees the signature; the bank's capital guarantees the transaction. **Risk control encapsulates trust.** In the midst of this, you might say "What are the standards?" in the sense of "What do the formal standards groups have to say?" The banking world is regulation rich and standards rich, too, which begs the question -- "Which standards matter?" The world of the Internet is making some of the banking-centric standards passe' but, unlike the combination of standards and regulations the banks are familiar with, the standards groups of the Internet cannot take on accountability for the implications of conformance/non-conformance though they continue to define it for others. This makes Internet standards substantially difficult to swallow because there is no accountability, nor can there be. The absence of enforcement guarantees that the only Internet standards that will really get attention are those that promote interoperability across jurisdictional boundaries. Ironically, this is all the pioneers of the Internet ever wanted. What the banks want, and I assure you they will get, is a set of cryptographically sophisticated tools that move the risks of the Internet from open-ended to estimable. In a sense, this is like insurability. It is probably apocryphal, but the story goes that a major investment firm with a Web commerce idea went to a big insurance company to seek stop loss protection. The conversation supposedly went like this: "How big is the potential loss?" "We don't know." "How likely is a loss to occur?" "We don't know." "How much is your company worth?" "This much." "That's the premium; send it in." Whether true or not, it illustrates the point -- the issue is getting a handle on the risk such that it can be priced. Every one of you who has tried to sell security technology has discovered that the only willing customers are those who either (1) have just been embarrassed in public or (2) have just learned that they are facing an audit. Everyone else is an unwilling customer. We've been dumb about this; we've tried to sell security as a means to establish trust but we've done it by railing about threats. It's no damned wonder that we haven't sold much. I know I have often wondered if my market might not explode were I to get just one of the big loss-prevention insurers to make good security practices and technology into an underwriting standard. Then, just like "Do you have sprinklers?" everyone is forced to confront whether they want to pay for security or pay for non-security. I am confident that the insurers could soften up my targets a lot better than I can. Let me tell you, they are about to. Insurability of Web commerce is essential, and no insurer is going to accept "We don't know" as an answer. They will say "Send it all in" and they'll mean it. The demand side for security technology is exploding but it isn't quite the security technology we have on hand. If a digital signature has the uniquely irreplaceable property of providing proof to a judge, then the role of a "trusted third party" is going to become more important over time, not less. Think of it this way: when I get a certificate issued to me by a certifying authority, I do have some risk around whether the CA is well operated or not. This includes the probability they will issue a certificate with my public key but someone else's name and whether when I tell them that my key has been compromised they will spring into decisive action. Most of that risk I can handle by a combination of due diligence and contract. However, when I give my certificate to you and say "Hi, I'm here from Central Services to fix your system" it is you that's in a risky position. You have to say "Is this certificate valid?" That means you have to check that the certificate is not listed as revoked, that the signature on the certificate is well formed, that the certificate authority which issued this certificate itself has an identity certificate that is itself validly signed, that the certificate authority is itself not in any trouble with revocation, and and so forth, ** recursively. ** The full cost of revocation testing is proportional to the square of the depth of the issuance hierarchy. In other words, this exceeds the intellectual capacity of most certificate recipients. This means that most recipients cannot themselves rely on the security technology to establish trust beyond the shadow of doubt. Instead, if recipients are smart, they will turn again to the insurance world just as risk holders have done whenever they cannot afford to carry on their books the consequences of a remotely unlikely event. For the insurer, he will underwrite a guarantee on the transaction for a fee that will reflect his experience with the CA's practices, the kind of transaction undertaken, the dollar amounts involved, etc. This will seem sensible to all parties because it is so familiar. This is risk management underwritten by financial intermediaries. This is where we will shortly be. This is the card eight major banks and CertCo played ten days ago -- the formation of "a global network of compliant businesses that use a common risk management framework." **This is where we securitize the transactional risk of electronic commerce.** There is one potential fly in this ointment, and I do not intend to dwell on it, but I cannot get this far and not mention the threat to strong security apparati of having them undermined by key escrow. Corporate policies and laws alike have always been defined in a territorial way that relies on clearly identifiable borders, physical locations where the policy or the law come to an end. But in the electronic world borders are meaningless. In some sense, sovereignty, based as it was on the idea of a border, is less meaningful now than for some centuries. In its place is a different kind of sovereignty, because the only borders in an electronic world are cryptographic ones. As such, the debate over who may or may not have a key known only to themselves is a proxy discussion for who may or may not have sovereignty within a cryptographically defined space. There are hard questions yet to answer. Compromised keys are revoked effective not to the moment of suspicion of compromise but rather retroactively to the last known time when the key was safe. In the case of escrow, should not a key's owner retroactively revoke it to the moment of its seizure from escrow should the owner later discover that it has been so seized? Or if a revoked key is only revoked by the action of the certifying authority signing a revocation notice in a special key, can that revocation-signing key itself ever be revoked? If it could, would that not invalidate (reverse) any revocations signed in it and what does that mean? I only offer these so that you do not equate my argument about the near-inevitability of investment in public key technology and digital-signature-dependent activities with some presumed infallibility of the technology or our understanding of it. These questions will be settled one way or another, but they remain open as we speak here today, and there is money to be made. I have tried to lay out my estimation on which way the tide is running and which moon's gravity matters. I could be completely wrong, or merely overstating what my biases bring me, but I think not. I think that just as the best estimate of tomorrow's weather is today's, the best estimate of how the Internet and the financial behemoths will interact is for the Internet to be driven, as a side effect, by the cost-reduction and profit-incented strategies of those financial behemoths. They already transcend national boundaries and their investment decisions do run the world. Were this to get enough investment, it might make security a solved problem at least as I define "solved" to mean "consistent with risk management in the insurance style." Since that would collapse the market for novel security add-ons, I strongly suggest that as you prepare your business plans you figure out how to be, as Tom Lehrer would say, a doctor specializing in diseases of the rich. This is a very exciting time and it is a privilege to be a part of it. When we are all relics in rocking chairs, we will still know that we were present at the creation. I know that I will count myself particularly lucky, including for your close attention these past few minutes. Thank you for the honor of speaking with you. END For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help". --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 11 06:49:12 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:49:12 +0800 Subject: charity at the point of a gun (Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Message-ID: <199811111420.PAA25606@replay.com> Anonymous writes: > > Adam Back wrote: > > > What is annoying is "charity" (social security) at the point of a gun. > > Our "conscience" is being decided by government which is acting as a > > broker for those lobby for their "need" and for your assets to be > > stolen and redistributed to them. > > > > What people aren't willing to pay for shouldn't happen. Period. If > > that means people starve well those complaining loudest had better > > dig deeper into their pockets. > > Imagine one of your kids had an accident and needed more expensive care > than you can pay for. Would you accept government "charity"? This is why I buy insurance. But let's go with your example: imagine that I didn't buy insurance (because I didn't want to or couldn't `afford' it or whatever), would I then be entitled to go around the neighborhood (gun in hand) and demand `charity' from all my neighbors? What if my house burns down? Again, can I demand `charity' at gunpoint from my neighbors? What if another motorist hits my parked car and totals it? Can I demand that my neighbors help me buy a new car? What if a $5 million (or use $5 billion if you prefer) operation would save my 88 year-old mother from the cancer that is killing her? Who can I find to pay for that? What if my self-esteem suffers because of frown lines in my forehead? Can I demand `charity' to pay for the plastic surgery? The question isn't and shouldn't be about whether you would `accept' charity (after all desperate people will do lots of things they might not ordinarily do or even believe in), but whether your fellow citizens ought to be REQUIRED to fund the `charity' you would like to receive. From apf2 at apf2.com Wed Nov 11 06:57:56 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:57:56 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981111152214.009317f0@apf2.com> >> Without some government the Bad Guys will be the only ones with anything. >> It is only with the threat of losing their power that leaders do good. If >> they had no power which could be lost or taken they will always do what's >> best for them in the short term, which is usually to shit on the peons. >> Dictators (like Pinochet and Gates) do their dirty deeds because they feel >> no need to placate the masses. > >If they wield no real power, and proceed to do whatever is best for them >in the short term, they will be screwing themselves over in the long >term (or short term, if doing what they want results in someone shooting >them in self defense). > I re-read my original sentence and it seems that your interpretation is possible. I would like to clarify that the power I refer to is only that part of their power which might be lost or threatened. Clearly if they have no power they can't lose it. I want to say that if some or all of their power could be placed in jeopardy they would tend to better behaved. Why do you suppose Clinton spent so much time licking everybodys' boots and repeatedly embellishing his "apologies" to the "public". >And precisely what dirty deeds has Mr. Gates ever done? Excluding those >actions in which the judicious use of state regulation was involved. You obviously think that anything goes in business. Frankly Gates is a perfect example of why you anarcho-BS is doomed to failure. He will do anything (and has) he can to be the only player in every market he touches. He has destroyed otherwise perfectly good businesses and products just to increase his profits. He has violated workers rights to increase his profit. In short he has demonstrated that if you let him murder wouldn't be to far a step to reach his goals. He is the monster that proves that your ideas are actually very very old (caveman days) and are doomed by progress and civilization. Injecting capitalism (investment oriented markets) into barbarism doesn't change the fact that it is still barbarism, which in facts negates the ability to have investment oriented markets, or capitalism. Who would invest if someone with a gun could come and take it without out fear of retribution. > >> This anarcho-capitalist spew is so much crap that the bullshit indicators >> are blaring at top volume. If the people can't control a constitutional >> government, known for having peacefully free elections for over two hundred >> years, then how the hell do think you can convince somebody that the people >> are going to be able to control warlords and monopolies. It's called, "You >> don't like it? Bang, Bang, you're dead!" > >Yah, and then somebody else points a gun at Mr. would-be warlord and >goes Bang, Bang, he's dead (it's unsafe having warlords about --sorta >like scorpions). That is, if Mr. would-be manages to shoot me without >being shot himself. > And so everybody's so busy shooting each other that nobody is investing, and I have to ask, "What happened to the capitalism part of anarcho-capitalism?" >> Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at >> least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting >> anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure >> it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then >> come back and tell us. > >It hasn't happened yet. But then, neither had the USA, before 1776. >The above is not a reasonable argument. WRONG!!!! Parliaments and representative governments did exist in somewhat other forms. 1776 was NOT a revolution it was evolution. It comes from among other things the Magna Carta of England as well as many other concepts astutely compiled by the "forefathers". Your propositions emanate from a basis which existed before there were nations and well before investment and economic development began. In fact, anarchy had to be overcome before consistent development could occur. Once we organized our societies and brought long (relatively) periods of peace to the general populace economic and scientific development began to grow. Certainly you will find it impossible to site any anarchic or nearly anarchic "society" (oxymoron) which has brought sustained significant development. > >You can, of course, as me how it *could* happen. And unfortunately, >you're partially correct, it couldn't happen under current conditions. >The amount of personal firepower that is easily accessible by everyone >is not sufficient to back up the soverignity of each individual. It's >all linked to whether weapons technology is such that individuals can >operate weapons which are just as effective as those wielded by highly >trained and specialized groups. The pendulum of weapons tech. swings >back and forth over time. During the American Revolution, the pendulum >was on the side of individuals, as can be shown by the fact that the >revolutionaries were carrying better weapons than those carried by >professional soldiers, and could use them to equal or larger effect. > You whole thesis is based on violence, the exact opposite of what's required for sustained economic growth. You lose! Consistently wrong answers. You just don't get it. War does not produce wide spread economic growth in those zones affected by the war. It destroys the infrastructure that only an organized government is capable of maintaining. Granted, if you can be the one selling the weapons you might profit for a while. But eventually, those same weapons will be turned on you. The real answer is to keep the government focused on keeping the peace and maintaining the infrastructures using as light a hand as possible--which is never going to be an easy task. But no government is NO GROWTH. The libertarians have at least part of the equation correct. They go a little too far to one extreme. But this is good, they're mostly just extreme enough to pull a wondering government back into the middle where it should be. Your anarcho-spew is rubbish, poorly thought out, and without any real validation. I bet most of the most fervent defenders of gun ownership on this list actually hope never to have to make use of their tunnels, guns, and survival rations. War is simply not good economics, and anarchy is war--constant, festering, sometimes small scale, sometimes large scale, but always war. APF From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 11 07:29:32 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:29:32 +0800 Subject: Question about insurance managed fire services... Message-ID: <199811111459.PAA27953@replay.com> Jim Choate writes: > > From: Anonymous > > > Jim Choate writes: > > > > > > How does company A guarantee that company B won't begin to burn down the > > > customers of company A so that the economic impact on A is sufficient they > > > can't participate in the market? > > > > How does it do so now? > > Insurance regulatory agencies who monitor the behavior, investigation by a > reasonably impartial fire dept after every fire. That's at least two. You really are naive, Jim. Do you think that insurance regulatory agents follow around after all of the insurance companies' employees to ensure they aren't starting fires? Or do you suppose that in an anarcho-capitialistic society (unlike the current sainted `democratic' society), company A would be so stupid as to make the burning of competitors' houses an official company policy which would be found out `if only' there were a government regulator watching it? How long do you suppose that company A can get away with burning down the homes of its competitors before its agents are caught in the act (by company B's investigators if no one else)? No, Jim, such behavior would clearly not be in the best interests of company A's stockholders (that is, it would not be `profitable'). Any why, in a private contractual situation, would the `fire department' not be impartial? How does the government-provided fire department have any advantage in impartiality? > > Fucking idiot. Do you imagine that the customers of company A (and > > their police, security force or other guardian) will stand idly by > > while their homes (the implied target) are burned? > > What police and security forces? The police or security force that the customer contracts with to protect their home of course. Idiot. These exist now in cooperation with government-provided police (though some might naively imagine them to be redundant). Either you are simply being disingenuous or you really are this stupid. > You mean the ones the same insurance > company co-oped? Context, Jim, context. This makes no sense whatsoever without more context. What insurance company are you talking about? And why does an insurance company necessarily have a direct relationship with a security service provider? Or did you mean `co-opted' (a different word altogether)? > What makes you thing that Company A or B will even advertise their actions? > > Who says the homes will be burned when the residents are even home? It isn't > like anyone is going to ask their permission. Indeed. So what prevents anyone from doing this now? I suggest you pretend you had a brain and try to think this through for yourself. There simply isn't anything magical about government-provided services. (While you are doing so, it might be instructive to remember that prior to the late 18th century, there was no such thing as a government-provided police force. Yet, people were still able to have houses without insurance companies burning them down.) > And I'm the 'fucking idiot'. This you have amply and repeatedly demonstrated. From howree at cable.navy.mil Wed Nov 11 07:42:04 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:42:04 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111182325.00879d50@205.83.192.13> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981112000622.0086e100@205.83.192.13> At 05:27 AM 11/11/98 -0800, b!X wrote: > >And notice also that the 1st begins with "Congress shall make no law" while >the 2nd begins with "a well regulated militia". and >Becos the attempted paraody was lame in the same ways that all attempts to >nonrationally support 2nd amendment freedoms by calling down the gods of 1st >amendment freeomds always are nonrational. (And no, that's not me saying >supporting 2nd amendment freedoms is irrational; it's me saying using the >1st amendment to do so is irrational). Let's try this again. Notice how, in each of the amendments below, the 1st is the only one with the text "congress shall make no law". This is implied, understood to be implied, accepted as implied and supreme court ruled to be implied as applicable to each of the rest of the bill of rights, and later to the amendments, wherein it is not so specified as in the 1st. A large part of the reason that 2 thru 10 and the rest do not include that phrase is to prevent the states from doing the very thing that congress was and is prohibited from. Congress cannot pass any law that would infringe freedom of speech, they cannot cause the states by threat or incentive to pass such laws either- say by withholding highway maintenance funding a la 55. Arbitrary out of context interpretations of documents such as this are just that. I grant you no brownie points for comprehension, you may have earned some demerits for instigating a straw man. Go to the back of the class. Reeza! --begin pasted text-- Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Amendment II A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Amendment III No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense. Amendment VII In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. Amendment VIII Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Amendment IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. --end pasted text-- If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 07:45:53 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:45:53 +0800 Subject: Question about insurance managed fire services... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811111515.JAA24410@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:59:32 +0100 > From: Anonymous > Subject: Re: Question about insurance managed fire services... > You really are naive, Jim. Do you think that insurance regulatory > agents follow around after all of the insurance companies' employees > to ensure they aren't starting fires? No, and exactly how you managed to derive that is truly humorous. > Or do you suppose that in an anarcho-capitialistic society (unlike > the current sainted `democratic' society), company A would be so > stupid as to make the burning of competitors' houses an official > company policy which would be found out `if only' there were a > government regulator watching it? How long do you suppose that > company A can get away with burning down the homes of its competitors Until somebody either squeels (not likely since they're dead shortly afterward or let loose and nobody will hire then from then on, not in the business' best interest.) or they do get caught and a connection is made (not very likely since the perp won't be carryin an employee badge). And since company A is the company that will be prosecuting (their own under-the-table employee) the consequences are pretty predictible. How commen is it now for business' to partake in illegal activities in order to further their business ends? How often do you suppose, given that rate, they are caught? I'd say not a lot. I see no reason to suspect that in a anarcho-whatever society that rate will be one whit better. > before its agents are caught in the act (by company B's investigators > if no one else)? Oh, they'll get caught occassionaly but then again, the strategy of forcing company B to keep investigators on call and monitoring their customers property is a good strategy to raise their cost of doing business and as a result their coverage rates. This increase will help convince user of B's service that A looks like a better bang for the buck. > No, Jim, such behavior would clearly not be in the > best interests of company A's stockholders (that is, it would not be > `profitable'). Sure it would, it decreases the cost of doing business and increases the potential market for future consumers of the services. It happens all the time now, it won't go away. > Any why, in a private contractual situation, would the `fire department' > not be impartial? How does the government-provided fire department > have any advantage in impartiality? Because their funds and income is from a known source. Ask yourself this, what happens if a police officer or a fire inspector suddenly starts driving a Porche around and moving out into the uppity neighborhoods and doesn't have a good explanation for it? > The police or security force that the customer contracts with to > protect their home of course. Idiot. These exist now in cooperation > with government-provided police (though some might naively imagine > them to be redundant). Either you are simply being disingenuous or > you really are this stupid. > > > You mean the ones the same insurance > > company co-oped? > > Context, Jim, context. This makes no sense whatsoever without more > context. What insurance company are you talking about? And why does > an insurance company necessarily have a direct relationship with a > security service provider? Or did you mean `co-opted' (a different > word altogether)? Apparently I've strained your short-term memory here, go back and read it again. Which insurance company is obvious - all of them. I'm done now, this isn't about anarcho-anything, this is about you getting your jollies off trying to take cheap shots at me personaly. Whoopie. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 08:20:44 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:20:44 +0800 Subject: ebanking - What's up with that? Message-ID: <199811111539.JAA24547@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, Anyone got a pointer other than the CNN article on the announcement by Excite Inc. and Bank One about their offering a full line of banking services online? I'd be interested in anything on the particulars of the services and he protocols they intend to impliment. Danke. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 08:57:42 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:57:42 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) Message-ID: <199811111618.KAA24654@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:06:22 +1000 > From: Reeza! > Subject: Re: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed > Notice how, in each of the amendments below, the 1st is the only one with > the text "congress shall make no law". > > This is implied, understood to be implied, accepted as implied and supreme > court ruled to be implied as applicable to each of the rest of the bill of > rights, and later to the amendments, wherein it is not so specified as in > the 1st. > > A large part of the reason that 2 thru 10 and the rest do not include that > phrase is to prevent the states from doing the very thing that congress was > and is prohibited from. Read the 10th again you don't understand what it is saying. It *specificaly* says that unless the Constitution assigns it to the feds *or* prohibits it then the states are *exactly* the ones that are able to do what Congress is prohibited from doing. The states are limited by their own consititions which are guaranteed to be representative in nature. The states absolutely have the right to regulate gun laws (as in the Texas constitution) provided they don't infringe (what part of shall not do you not understand) on the actual possession. Licenses and background checks at the state level are absolutely constitutional. State regulation on speech, press, etc. are also completely constitutional as well. And is where such regulation should take place. If you don't like your states laws move to one you do like. That's what it means to live in a democracy, freedom of choice - not homogeneity (on this point ol' Alex was wrong, wrong, wrong). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From stuffed at stuffed.net Thu Nov 12 01:14:37 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED THU NOV 12) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:14:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 09:28:06 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:28:06 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110037.SAA20949@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 7:37 PM -0500 11/10/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > No, I am saying that since EVERY government at one time or another >> treats its citizens like roaches, it's time to radically change the nature >> of it so that it basically can't be called a government any more. >The problem isn't government, it's the people who enforce the government >that abuse it. And the system protects them. Pinochet wasn't handed over to spain now was he. It's the system. >> >Well actualy it's whether it has a tax stamp whether you sell it out of a >> >storefront or a truckbed is irrelevent. Considering the number of >>people wh= > >> Wanna bet? > >Absolutely. I happen to know a whole passel of beer, wine, and liqour >makers. Austin as aswim in micro-breweries. I'd be more than happy to pass >your email address to the enibriated set and let them argue the point with >you. >> Most states have fairly strict laws concerning where liquor can be >> sold. > >Actualy it's not the states (at least Texas and Louisiana), it's the local >cities. The state of Texas doesn't care as long as you pay your liquor >license and don't sell to minors and obey the local zoning ordinances. In N.C, Tennesee (IIRC), Illinois, and North Carolina (especially N.C.) it's the state. >> Which is completely irrelevant as to wheter or not it is currently >> black market or not, which is the context I was working in. >> >> Stay on target. > >I am on target. The fact that a unregulated alcohol industry led to death, >debilitation, and financial hardship justified the imposition of regulation >on alcohol and its related operations. Crap. Pure B.S. What lead to it's regulation was a bunch of broads who didn't want ANYONE drinking, so they pushed for abolition, which was a total disaster, and lead to repeal. >You just don't want the entire picture painted because it cast a harsh light >on the premise that un-regulated economies are good things. While you keep repeating lies and half truths. Ever heard of "Muckraking"? Yellow Journalism? Could it have been that that lead to some of this B.S. regulation? Nah, the press never would have done something like that. Remember the movie "Reefer Madness", and the Jim Crow drug laws of the early 1900's? Couldn't be that people in positions of power at the time had certain agendas and used lies to further them could it. Nah, people in government NEVER behave like that. >> >Not necessarily. The doctor has to have a medicaly supportable reason to >> >dispence those drugs. Otherwise it's just as black market as Joe's. >> Quibble Quibble. You know EXACTLY what I meant. >Yeah, you meant to commit an act of ommission so that your position looks >more favorable than it actualy does. No I didn't, EVEN IF I GET THEM LEGALLY, if I turn around and sell them, it's black market, that was muy fucking point, I'm sorry if you can't comprehend that sort of thing. Let me tell you a true story Jimmy. A while back I had a bit of surgery done to repair a hernia. The Doctor gave me a perscription for a pain killer (related to valium IIRC). 40 caps of it. I hated the shit, and didn't take it after the 2nd day, leaving me clear headed, but in pain. No big deal, I've been in pain before. I traded the rest of those drugs for an old computer. I got them thru the "white" market, with just cause, and legally (I had never taken that kind of thing before and didn't know it's effects), but I "recycled" them thru the black market. Either way, my point is still that the black market is about more than just if the _product_ is illegal, it also relates to the trade. >> >Didn't think of theft? Jesus H. Christ, you gotta be on Joe's drugs. The >> >vast majority of material sold on *ANY* black market is stolen from its >> >rightful owner. It is *the* example of black market trading that most folks >> >think of first. >> >> No, the vast majority (in terms of dollars) of stuff sold on the >> black market is Drugs. > >Really? Drugs are what $10B US a year or so. I bet stolen automobiles when Yeah, like anyone really knows for sure. >taken as a whole gross more loss than that. And what makes you think that >the vast majority of that drugs aren't purchased at the street level with Because I know a lot of people who've bought drugs, and for the most part it was with money they earned or receieved thru legal means. >> >How the hell do you sell something on the black market if you don't have >> >possession of it? And exactly who is going to prosecute anyone for >> Easy, it's called a Con. >> Seriously tho, I said that the _selling_ of stolen goods might not >> be illegal, but the possesion of such things, and the stealing of them are >> seperate acts to the selling of them. >Still doesn't answer my question. Your question is ignorant and irrelevant, but to answer it: Brokers. I have something to sell, but I don't want to hassle with finding a buyer. Joe has a lot of connections, but no goods to sell, and you are a buyer. I let joe know I have product, he makes the deal, and I hire Omar to deliver it to you. Joe never even sees the merchandise, but is effectively the seller. >> There isn't a need to. Shoot them. >Ah, so you admit that the general mechanism to settle inter-personal dispute >under your plan is to allow people to run around shooting each other. No, and for you to even say it in that manner is complete disingenious. You and I are having and "inter-personal dispute", and would never suggest that you be shot for disagreeing with me. Nor would I if, say, we had a car accident and were resolving that (unless you had done something like driving drunk and blatantly violating common sense rules of the road like running a stop sign or a red light, in which case you are a threat to me and others). On the other hand, I catch you in my home uninvited, I hope your life insurance is paid up. I catch you with MY property without my permission, I hope your medical insurance is good, cause you are going to be in a LOT of pain. >Well, at least we've got an honest admission that murder would be legal in >this system. Murder is a legal construct. It is "killing in violation of the law" (no, that isn't the legal defination of murder, I realize that), if you don't have "law", you don't have murder. If you have law, then murder is illegal. You are talking about killing, and in cases (i.e. those not covered by law) killing is legal. If I accidentally hit someone with a car, and they die, that is not murder. If am a cop and shoot someone, it isn't murder. If I am rich and famous (come on, you know the song, sing along "Murder is a crime, unless it is done by a police man, or an Aristocrat Know your rights, these are your rights...) and stab someone, it is not murder, and if I kill someone (in most states) illegally entering my house, it is not murder. Hell, in texas, I can shoot my wife, as long as she is in bed with another person. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 11 09:29:06 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:29:06 +0800 Subject: Cylink Sued for Stock Fraud Message-ID: <199811111641.LAA06325@camel14.mindspring.com> Business Wire reported yesterday that Cylink has been sued in US District Court of New Jersey for securities fraud through a class action. It alleges misrepresentation and false financial statements. http://jya.com/cylink-suit.htm On November 5 Cylink announced revised revenues for the first half of 1998. The day before William Crowell, ex-NSA, was appointed president in a house sweep of the executive team, apparently after discovery of book cooking. William Perry, ex-DoD, is still listed on the board of directors, although the list seems to be out of date, along with the annual report and letter to stockholders on Cylink's Web site. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 10:43:32 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:43:32 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811111750.LAA25041@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:49:23 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > And the system protects them. Pinochet wasn't handed over to spain > now was he. > > It's the system. No, it's the British system. And to be honest it should be the American system also. A country should have jurisdiction only within its own borders. Other countries should have agreements about how persons accussed of crimes should be extradited. In the anarcho-whatever system this is all eliminated because we've eliminated crime in the first place by legitimizing any and all strategies. > In N.C, Tennesee (IIRC), Illinois, and North Carolina (especially > N.C.) it's the state. Then have the law changed in those states or you could move to Texas. > Crap. Pure B.S. What lead to it's regulation was a bunch of broads > who didn't want ANYONE drinking, so they pushed for abolition, which was a > total disaster, and lead to repeal. No, that was prohibition. The taxation of alcohol goes back equaly far in the history of this country. To before the articles of confederation even since Britian required taxes on rum and related items - espcialy if they were from non-British ports - if you would stop knee-jerking responces and think back the Tax Acts were one of the reasons we had a revolution in the first place. Tea, rum, and whiskey were one of the primary motivations. > Ever heard of "Muckraking"? Yellow Journalism? Could it have been > that that lead to some of this B.S. regulation? Nah, the press never would > have done something like that. Actualy, the fact that you admit that the press can be in colussion with the government and the businesses goes a long way toward demonstrating that anarcho-anything won't work because it will be even harder for whistle-blowers and 'social do-gooders' to get their message out (unless they're well heeled and don't mind loosing it all in the process). > Remember the movie "Reefer Madness", and the Jim Crow drug laws of > the early 1900's? Couldn't be that people in positions of power at the time > had certain agendas and used lies to further them could it. People always have agenda's (this is segues nicely into what Blanc was saying about attitudes), that's my point and one of the reasons that anarcho-whatever won't work is because it doesn't recognize this nor does it put any sort of limit on its expression. > Nah, people in government NEVER behave like that. People always behave that way, it's the way people are. Being in government is only another mechanism it gets expressed through. Business is another. > No I didn't, EVEN IF I GET THEM LEGALLY, if I turn around and sell > them, it's black market, that was muy fucking point, I'm sorry if you can't > comprehend that sort of thing. If the doctor gives them to you without a valid medical reason then you didn't get them legaly. Techicaly the doctor is in violation for trafficking and you would be in violation for possession and use of a controlled substance. If you knew full well that you weren't going to use them and took them anyway then you in effect stole them because you misled the doctor into giving them to you. Now if you simply sold them because you didn't like their side effects then only you are legaly culpible. Now, your point that not everything on the black market is stolen is well take as I've said before (you just didn't read it, it at least explains why you keep going over the same issue until you think I'll be badgered into agreeing with you). The exception I take, and am still waiting for refuation of, is that the *majority* of goods on the black market including drugs are related to the theft of material or services from legitimate parties. That you don't seem to grasp (and I'm not so obsessed with making you see it that I'm going to discuss the issue farther). As a history teacher once said: The nice thing about America is anybody can believe anything, whether they know what they are talking about or not. I respect that sentiment. > I hated the shit, and didn't take it after the 2nd day, leaving me > clear headed, but in pain. No big deal, I've been in pain before. I traded > the rest of those drugs for an old computer. I certainly hope that no DEA agents are watching *and* you're not in the US. Admitting to a crime in a public venue, whether in a public park or a mailing list isn't the brightest strategy. If you're not in the US you should probably hope that the NSA (or whomever) is too busy to pass along this to the requisite authorities. I would suggest strongly that for future such public admission you should use a pseudonym or an anonymous remailer. > Either way, my point is still that the black market is about more > than just if the _product_ is illegal, it also relates to the trade. It has to do with something being illegal or not acceptable otherwise you could just open up a store and start trading the items directly. In the vast majority of cases it involves the theft of services or property from the valid rights holder. > Yeah, like anyone really knows for sure. Well that pretty much shoots a hole in your point as well if that is your position. However, since the manufature of vehicles is accounted far to at least the 10's place by auto manufacturers and the sale of legitimate cars is traceable through tax and title I'd say that it is possible to make educated guesses about the scale of the market. > Because I know a lot of people who've bought drugs, and for the > most part it was with money they earned or receieved thru legal means. No, you know some people who have bought drugs, just as I do. However, claiming that the small set you know of personaly qualifies as a lot is an invalid hyperbole. There are millions of drug users in this country, and in your entire life you've only met a few thousand at best. > Your question is ignorant and irrelevant, but to answer it: Brokers. Oh, you mean fences... > I have something to sell, but I don't want to hassle with finding a > buyer. Joe has a lot of connections, but no goods to sell, and you are a > buyer. I let joe know I have product, he makes the deal, and I hire Omar to > deliver it to you. Joe never even sees the merchandise, but is effectively > the seller. You have to have possession in order to pass possesion to Joe so that he can sell it and pass you possession of the receipted funds (minus Joe's cut). Whether that possession is measured in immediate physical control (ie in your pants pocket) or more general (eg stored in a rent-room under an assumed name) is irrelevant. There is also the fact that if you don't produce the item(s) at some point Joe is likely to take his frustration out on you because you tried to take him and his money. The fact that you can produce them is clear evidence that at some point they were in your possession. How many middle-men is between there is irrelevant, since you are driving it and paying the costs you are in possession. > No, and for you to even say it in that manner is complete > disingenious. Your the one who said shoot them, what's the matter find your baby to ugly to look at? You and I are having and "inter-personal dispute", and would > never suggest that you be shot for disagreeing with me. Nor would I if, Yeah, well unless you can convince everyone that anarcho-whatever will also convince the Kennedy boys, OJ, et ali. then it's pretty irrelevant since it will occur whether you or I are involved and the issue is that it occurs, not that you or I are involved. I suspect that the emotionaly challenged will continue to shoot each other irrespective of the political system implimented. If you take guns away they'll knife each other and if you take knives away they'll beat each other to death. Which raises an interesting point, more people are killed by physical assault according to the FBI crime stats than guns each year. > say, we had a car accident and were resolving that (unless you had done > something like driving drunk and blatantly violating common sense rules of > the road like running a stop sign or a red light, in which case you are a > threat to me and others). Ah, I see. So your position is that if somebody runs a stop light then that is grounds to shoot them. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Wed Nov 11 10:46:00 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:46:00 +0800 Subject: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful In-Reply-To: <3648B332.19DA@lsil.com> Message-ID: <199811111809.MAA14591@manifold.algebra.com> >From careful reading of the disclaimer at the bottom of the article, it seems to me that it was a hoax. igor Michael Motyka wrote: > > > I didn't think of this before but add together bees, wind and rampant > tree sex and this stuff will definitely spread. It could even become a > bit of a "problem". > > The people who have packets of seeds should distribute those quickly to > friends before the buggerers get the mailing list and start confiscating > seeds. > > BTW - I believe that citrus hybridize freely, rather like mentha in that > respect. > > Wild and cool. I think he should do apples next. Then strawberries. > Peaches. Beans. A whole fucking farmer's market. > - Igor. From mah248 at nyu.edu Wed Nov 11 10:49:27 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:49:27 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3649D60A.EB13E9A1@nyu.edu> Albert P. Franco, II wrote: > > >> Without some government the Bad Guys will be the only ones with anything. > >> It is only with the threat of losing their power that leaders do good. If > >> they had no power which could be lost or taken they will always do what's > >> best for them in the short term, which is usually to shit on the peons. > >> Dictators (like Pinochet and Gates) do their dirty deeds because they feel > >> no need to placate the masses. > > > >If they wield no real power, and proceed to do whatever is best for them > >in the short term, they will be screwing themselves over in the long > >term (or short term, if doing what they want results in someone shooting > >them in self defense). > > > > I re-read my original sentence and it seems that your interpretation is > possible. I would like to clarify that the power I refer to is only that > part of their power which might be lost or threatened. Clearly if they have > no power they can't lose it. I want to say that if some or all of their > power could be placed in jeopardy they would tend to better behaved. Why do > you suppose Clinton spent so much time licking everybodys' boots and > repeatedly embellishing his "apologies" to the "public". But how can you plausibly threaten the power of he who has the most power? That would imply that a greater power exists -if so, how do we control those who wield *it*? Checks and balances don't work if those in power aren't willing to check others in power (because, for example, they're on the same side). > >And precisely what dirty deeds has Mr. Gates ever done? Excluding those > >actions in which the judicious use of state regulation was involved. > > You obviously think that anything goes in business. Frankly Gates is a > perfect example of why you anarcho-BS is doomed to failure. He will do > anything (and has) he can to be the only player in every market he touches. So? As long as he doesn't initiate force against anyone, I see no reason why he should be physically prevented from doing what he does. I dislike the way he operates, but neither I nor anyone else has the right to initiate force upon him to stop him, so long as he doesn't initiate force himself. My solution to the problematic behavior of Mr. Gates is not to patronize him wherever possible, to within a certain level of convienience. For example, I do not run MS software on my system --it sucks compared to Linux. Other people hate microsoft even more, and actively work against it. These people either work for competing companies, agitate the public to shun microsoft, or write good open source software, in an attempt to remove microsoft's market. > He has destroyed otherwise perfectly good businesses and products just to > increase his profits. He has violated workers rights to increase his > profit. How? What rights have been violated? Did he at any time initiate force against any of these workers? Did he hire soldiers to storm into competitors' offices to murder and destroy everyone and everything? If he has, I certainly haven't heard of it. I suspect that any "rights" which you think have been "violated" turn out to be non-rights, if you're anything other than a socialist. (which you may very well be --in which case, you'd be irrational and very good at doublethink, making intelligent argument futile) > In short he has demonstrated that if you let him murder wouldn't be > to far a step to reach his goals. I do not agree with this appraisal, and do not care, as long as he doesn't initate force, or use the state to initate force. Until then, he has as much right to do what he does as you have to do whatever it is that you do. > He is the monster that proves that your ideas are actually very very old > (caveman days) and are doomed by progress and civilization. Injecting > capitalism (investment oriented markets) into barbarism doesn't change the > fact that it is still barbarism, which in facts negates the ability to have > investment oriented markets, or capitalism. Who would invest if someone > with a gun could come and take it without out fear of retribution. But my point all along is that anyone who takes a gun and tries to take something *is* likely to face retribution --either from those he steals from, or from others who don't wish to be robbed by him. This retribution can take many forms, ranging from death, to ostracism, to a lowering of his reputation, depending upon how severe his crime was. You just haven't been reading what I've been saying, have you? > >> years, then how the hell do think you can convince somebody that the people > >> are going to be able to control warlords and monopolies. It's called, "You > >> don't like it? Bang, Bang, you're dead!" > > > >Yah, and then somebody else points a gun at Mr. would-be warlord and > >goes Bang, Bang, he's dead (it's unsafe having warlords about --sorta > >like scorpions). That is, if Mr. would-be manages to shoot me without > >being shot himself. > > > > And so everybody's so busy shooting each other that nobody is investing, > and I have to ask, "What happened to the capitalism part of > anarcho-capitalism?" Such events would be rare, since it's pretty easy for all parties concerned to figure out the likely result of such an exchange. Mr. would-be-warlord will probably not act on his desires, since he knows that it would at best drop his reputation through the floor, and at worst, result in his death. Unless of course, he's a real lunatic -in which case, he'd have gone out and attacked someone anyway. It's actually better this way. At least we don't have to worry about intelligent would-be-warlords manipulating the state to do their dirty work for them. In sum, the possibility of getting killed tends to put a damper on the would-be-warlord population. > >> Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at > >> least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting > >> anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure > >> it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then > >> come back and tell us. > > > >It hasn't happened yet. But then, neither had the USA, before 1776. > >The above is not a reasonable argument. > > WRONG!!!! Parliaments and representative governments did exist in somewhat > other forms. 1776 was NOT a revolution it was evolution. It comes from > among other things the Magna Carta of England as well as many other > concepts astutely compiled by the "forefathers". Ok, then think of it this way. Instead of having one big, centralized state, where orders are given from on high, and are thus frequently inequitous to lowly individuals, let's go for a more evenly distributed model. Let's carry this distribution to the point where everyone governs himself and his property. Previous attempts at such things would have failed, since humaity lacked communications systems which were fast enough to link such a system together. Previous forms of government all reflect this fact. Communication was always very centralized, and thus governance had to be as well, to keep everyone up to speed on what's going on. As communications technologies improved, states have become more and more decentralized. (go from the mesopotamian warrior-kings, to Rome, to monarchy, to parliamentary government, to the US). And today, we are presented with the internet --the ultimate in decentralized, near instantaneous communications. We aren't very far from making it possible for anyone, anywhere, to communicate with anyone else, wherever they may be. Obviously, this makes it possible to progress even further by decentralizing things even more! The net result is indistinguishable from anarcho-capitalism. I'd be satisfied with it. Do you like it better from this angle? > Your propositions emanate from a basis which existed before there were > nations and well before investment and economic development began. In fact, > anarchy had to be overcome before consistent development could occur. Once > we organized our societies and brought long (relatively) periods of peace > to the general populace economic and scientific development began to grow. > Certainly you will find it impossible to site any anarchic or nearly No, but you couldn't have cited the United States before it existed either. > anarchic "society" (oxymoron) Only if you persist in confusing society with the state. > which has brought sustained significant > development. > > > > >You can, of course, as me how it *could* happen. And unfortunately, > >you're partially correct, it couldn't happen under current conditions. > >The amount of personal firepower that is easily accessible by everyone > >is not sufficient to back up the soverignity of each individual. It's > >all linked to whether weapons technology is such that individuals can > >operate weapons which are just as effective as those wielded by highly > >trained and specialized groups. The pendulum of weapons tech. swings > >back and forth over time. During the American Revolution, the pendulum > >was on the side of individuals, as can be shown by the fact that the > >revolutionaries were carrying better weapons than those carried by > >professional soldiers, and could use them to equal or larger effect. > > > You whole thesis is based on violence, the exact opposite of what's > required for sustained economic growth. Nope, it's based on *reality*. The only way to ensure that no one will inflict violence upon you is to be capable of inflicting at least as much violence upon any attacker. What I'm telling you is that if the above conditions exist, violence will become a very unhealthy trade, and will not be practiced by anyone aside from the occasional lunatic who wants to commit suicide in an interesting fashion. > You lose! Consistently wrong > answers. You just don't get it. I beg to differ. It would appear that *you* just don't get it. Re-read what I've said in the light of my above paragraph, and see if you come to the same conclusion. > War does not produce wide spread economic > growth in those zones affected by the war. It destroys the infrastructure I agree that war destroys infrastructure, and is not going to cause widespread economic growth. I never said otherwise. But lets look at war for a moment, hmm? Those who start wars usually do so because they think they can win them, am I correct? It would be insane to do otherwise. If conditions were such that nobody could be sure of winning, there would be very little incentive to start a war, don't you agree? Of course, in reality, wars are started between nations by their leaders, who supposedly act on the behalf of their people. It is currently possible for the leader of a nation to have an incentive to start a war which his country cannot win, so long as *he* profits by it -in terms of money, power, etc. As long as he doesn't lose personally, he can do whatever he likes (if he's sufficiently amoral, which we must assume that some leaders will be). This is not the same on an individual level, however. It is never in the interest of the attacker to attack someone unless he can be reasonably sure of winning. The attacker cannot divorce himself from the results of his actions, as the leader of a nation can, because he cannot separate his being from his body in any effective sense. That is, if his body loses the fight, he's screwed. The point you raise would seem to be yet another argument for anarcho-capitalism. It would appear that preople have even more incentive not to hurt each other under those conditions than under present ones. > that only an organized government is capable of maintaining. This is untrue. Organized government is not necessary for the maintenence of infrastructure. See my other posts, or "The Market for Liberty". > The real answer is to keep the government focused on keeping the peace and > maintaining the infrastructures using as light a hand as possible--which is > never going to be an easy task. It is an impossible task, as my discussions with Jim Choate have shown. > But no government is NO GROWTH. The > libertarians have at least part of the equation correct. They go a little > too far to one extreme. But this is good, they're mostly just extreme > enough to pull a wondering government back into the middle where it should > be. Your anarcho-spew is rubbish, poorly thought out, and without any real > validation. I've offered plenty of validation. You haven't bothered trying to invalidate these validations, which would be the only way you could logically disprove my arguement. Instead, you've deliberately or unconsciously misunderstood or misread my arguements until they fit in with what you wanted me to have said. At which point, you spewed forth whatever canned response you had ready for what you wished I'd said. > I bet most of the most fervent defenders of gun ownership on this list > actually hope never to have to make use of their tunnels, guns, and > survival rations. You would be correct. I like to count myself among them. I have no desire to hurt or be hurt, rule or be ruled. > War is simply not good economics, 100% correct. > and anarchy is war--constant, festering, > sometimes small scale, sometimes large scale, but always war. Incorrect, for the above reasons. We don't really disagree on the fundamentals. I suggest that you take a very close and unbiased look at the points where we seem to disagree. I suspect that upon closer examination, you will come to the same conclusions that I have. It all hinges on being able to think about *why* the state might be the only possible solution to various problems/required services. This is usually very difficult for most people, as they've had those beliefs drilled into their skulls since they were young. I've found that it's much like a religion, in some respects. At least, all the arguments I've ever had with religious people on the topic of their religion kept ending up much like our current discussion). I've since realized how pointless it is to have such religious arguments. I haven't given up on politial arguments, however, and I hope I never have to. The result is unpleasant to think about. Good luck, and watch out for doublethink! Michael Hohensee From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 11 10:54:23 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:54:23 +0800 Subject: Free Email as Anonymous Remailer Re: NPR is at it again... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111015237.0079f350@idiom.com> >>Some commie law professor broad :-) is talking about how there oughtta be a >>law against anonymous remailers, deja news, and various forms of "illegal" >>email... >>The ganglia twitch... > >like hotmail and yahoo mail??? these are *awesome* remailers. I picked >up a yahoo mail account recently and am blown away with all the *FEATURES*!! >separate folders, filtering, external mailboxes support through POP, >binary attachments, my gosh!!!!! my cup runneth over, for free, TOTALLY >ANONYMOUS check it out cpunks, a cpunk wet dream!! They're NOT SECURE! But Web anonymizers can fix most of the holes. In particular, Hotmail + www.anonymizer.com is a reasonable substitute for the old penet.fi remailer. There are scurrilous rumors that some people actually put bogus information on their free email accounts! (My cat certainly didn't do that :-) But the portal services can keep records of who's connecting to them, at least by IP address, which can be traced back to ISPs, and from there back to phone lines, etc., depending on the extent of records the various ISPs keep. It's not enough without anonymizers. I suspect this is what will replace the current remailer system - chaining through some set of Crowds, Onions, and commercial and free anonymizers to reach a free email system to transmit and receive email. An interesting project would be a free low-volume anonymizer cgi for Apache, given the large number of current users and the much larger number of people who will run web servers once they have cable modems. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 10:54:25 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:54:25 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110052.SAA21018@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 7:52 PM -0500 11/10/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: >> Really, you are saying they couldn't possibly recognize the >> benefits of teaming up and co-locating fire stations, or that they wouldn't >> sub-contract to a company that handled fires? >So, you want to sub-contract out which is going to raise the cost and >doesn't alleviate the insurance company from regulatory and supply issues. >It'd cost a fortune. Sub-contracting can often lead to cost savings. For instance, instead of each insurer having their own fire station network, they could all share one, and only pay a certain cost-per-subscriber. Kind of like today where insurers don't usually own hospitals & doctors offices. >> "reasonable" in cost? There is a LOT if inefficiency in the system >> that competition could eliminate. >Yep, and a lot of people the competition would eliminate as well. I'll live >with the inefficiency as long as the cost is affordable for the quality of >service delivered. I don't mind fireman sitting around eating bar-b-q unless >somebodies house burns down. I am not just talking about firehouses Jim, and I don't mind them barbequing either. >> Read that last bit. They got so carried away, that they spent >> themselves out of existence. >That is one example, I know of several fortune 100 companies that are equaly >extravagant. The problem with Compu-Add was they shot their whole wad. Extravagance isn't always bad. I just spent 1 1/2 weeks (well almost) living at a hotel in Sunnyvale on Playboy's dime. They let us spend a bit of money, stay in nice hotels (Marriot Residence Inn), eat pretty much what we want (I've never hit the meal limits, but I don't eat too fancy) we can get up to a full sized car (they wouldn't let me rent a motorcycle, but that was more insurance than anything), it is a bit on the extravagant side, but I was also working 10 to 15 hour days for 12 straight days (worked before I left to go out there as well). It's sort of a "payment in kind". It isn't the extravagance of Business, it's the idiotic things they spend money on. Microsoft Exchange for instance. About 5 times more expensive than a competitive product, and about 20 times more expensive than the cheapest commercial solution that will work. There is also a lot of free software out there that does the same thing. So no, I am not going to try to say that Business is has to be more efficient than Government, just that the market is usually more efficient than Government. >> Ok, so you limit the senators and congressmen, then the unelected >> beaureacrats have the power since they know the system and run the system. > >Not at all, they are limited in what they can do by the laws. It's not like >they're running around sending bills to people out of the blue and making up >the system as they go along. Despite your protestations to the contrary the >system just don't work that way. Look at the IRS, they make their own rules, and send bills to people randomly. >> Wearing a painted leather jacket & ripped up blue jeans is NOT a >> reason to get hauled off the street, searched and questioned. >If it happened to you and you didn't file a harrassment complaint then you >got what you deserved. If you don't use the system it won't work. Oh, they had an excuse, someone wearing blue jeans and a leather jacket robbed a store--On the other side of town, and I was walking. >Never happened to me or anyone I knew unless they were in particular places >at particular times. If a cop busts people at a corner every nite for >breaking the law it isn't the cops fault, it's the stupid people who keep It is when the law used has been thrown out of court every time it's used, and citizens complain, but the cops still use it to harass people. >> Looking different is not illegal. >> Thinking different is not illegal. >Nobody said it was and it isn't. Now if you happen to fit the description of >another perp well that's just too damn bad. The cops seem to think so. >> With a bunch thrown in at the federal level. Federal Matching Funds >> & etc. >Oh, malarky (and stay away from my business books). It's obvious you never >do accounting. The matching funds are for roads outside of the city or for There are quite a few roads in Chicago that are maintained by state and federal funds. >highways that transit cities. They are not supposed to be used for city >street or FM or RM roads. Supposed to or not, that is what they get used for. LSD in Chicago is maintained in part by federal funds, it is a (mostly) controled access highway entirely within Chicago. >> Then why do they keep building them? > >Because we still hav an Army whose job it is to defend this country you >nit-wit. If we didn't keep fixing them and expanding the system as people Listen Fuckwad: (1) there are paved roads from one coast to the other, as well as railways. (2) There hasn't been a war fought on CONUS since we attacked Mexico. (3) Most of the roads being built with federal funds are for "congestion relief", not roads to new places so troops can move. Most roads being built today are either for Suburbs, or for more efficiently getting people to and from job centers. If you don't believe that, you are a fool There hasn't been a military case for building superhighways since the 1930's and 40's. >move around and expand the Army might find it a tad hard to do their job >when called to it. And yes, I know the Militia is the one who is supposed >to be called in for that sort of stuff - that's a whole other topic. The Army. Marines, and National Guard are fully capable of getting whereever they need to go with our without the current highway system, if they weren't they'd be worthless. Also, it is just as easy for the OpFors to use the roads as it is for the friendlies. I am not saying you are lying with this one, I just can't believe that anyone was foolish enough to fall for it. >> Promote does not mean "give away", it means "promote", do things >> which incourage. > >Absolutely. While I agree that there are some particular issues that need >fixing in a major way that is not the same (as you would have us believe) as >saying as a result the whole system should be scrapped I, and others are saying that there is no way of building a system that cannot, and indeed will not be abused. >> They were the heads of the governments. The skills and abilities it >> takes to get to that level insure that the people who get there have no >> concern for those underneath them. >Oh, you mean insanity, egotism, neurosis, etc.? Well, at least egotism, and a complete disregard for the truth. >> So we agree that any government is doomed from the start, since >> w/out people of honesty and integrity no system will work properly. > >No, *all* people are not such. Most people I know are honest and have >integrity. What has to happen is a set of checks and balances, which we are Most people are honest--TO A POINT, and the integrity people have is getting less and less. If everyone you know is honest and has integrity, then you must not know very many people. None of your friends cheat on their taxes (cheating is dishonest, refusing to pay would show integrity, if AND ONLY IF it follows from a belief that the system has no right to demand your labor) etc? >admittedly short of at the moment. The system isn't perfect, never claimed >to be (read the 1st paragraph if the Constitution), and if it remains so >then it's *OUR* fault and not the systems. Any system is flawed, and I will repeat myself: (a)Any system will work if enough of the people in that system are honest, have integrity, believe in the system and want it to work. Any system. (b)No system will work if a large enough number of people within that system try to cheat, coopt, or otherwise "get over" on that system. Given the above, anarchy will work just as well as any other system in the long run because the world more closely resembles (b) than (a), hence any system will fail. >> No, that face that stares back from the mirror makes every effort >> to be as honest and forthright as it can. It causes grief sometimes, but >> it's the principle. >You claim to be honest yet promote a system that allows slavery, murder, >theft, and other horrendous crimes against man.... No, no, I promote anarchy, you are promoting governments which do those things. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 10:54:54 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:54:54 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110057.SAA21081@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0500 11/10/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: Part what is attributed to me I wrote, some was written by Albert P. Franco, whose original message didn't get modified properly by Eudora. Sorry. I've changed his comments to :: >> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:40:11 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the >> Foregone(fwd) > ::I left the good ol' USA too. I now live in a European country with a strong ::socialistic government and I actually find very little interference in my ::day to day life. In fact there seems to be a much higher awareness that ::each > >I find very little interference in my daily life as well (except when one of >you anarcho-cooks starts dropping bombs and threatening people). >> Crap. They take 60+ percent of your income in taxes, that means >> that they take 60+ percent of your working day. >They take 40% of my income, or are you talking of France taking 60% of your >income. Disagreement over the level or specific policies for spending it do >not justify eliminating the system. Specific levels maybe, but spending policies, yes it does. >> They (at least france) throw up HUGE barriers to anyone wanting to >> start a business, especially if they will need to hire workers. This not >> only makes it difficult for you to start a business (which would never >> happen since you've indicated you like someone else making decisions for >> you) but also increases unemployment (prevents others from creating jobs >> rather than just begging for them). > >And you find that a better place to live then the US? Again, That was Franco, I live in the US, and wrote that part. :: individual is responsible for his and her actions. At the very least there :: aren't as many lawyers claiming everyone is a victim of something or :: another (ie. too hot coffee, slippery floors, home owners that shot the :: poor intruder who didn't get a warning first, etc.) > >What is the percentage of lawyers in France to the total population? > :: Ain't no where perfect, anarcho-whatever was done about 4000 years ago, I :: generally prefer to look forward... >> >> So, the fact that it hasn't been tried in 4000 years means it will >> never work? >> >> I guess it's a good thing the wright brothers didn't take that >> attitude, nor Robert Goddard. > >We tried anarchy, it's called cave men. As to Wright and Goddard, they had >ample evidence in physics (that's been around what 4.5B years) to build >their expectations on. In the field of politics and social system the only >thing we have to go with is our imagination, patience, understanding, and >past practice. 5k years or a little more. > >All of those say anarcho-anything systems won't work. Those haven't been tried in 5 or 6k years, things change. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 11:07:41 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 03:07:41 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110156.TAA21708@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 8:56 PM -0500 11/10/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:00:44 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: Re: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done >> better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) > >> Roads are the easiest (assuming a government model) things to apply >> road use taxes to, simply tax gasoline, oil, and tires. Scale your tire tax >> based on weight and apply it to bicycles as well, then everyone (execpt >> peds) who uses pays. > >Screw that, tax the shoes. Ok, just do it in proportion to the weight rating, and the road usage. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 11 11:09:34 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 03:09:34 +0800 Subject: GOST still used? Message-ID: <199811111837.TAA12319@replay.com> Can anyone report whether GOST is still used anywhere? From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 11:10:30 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 03:10:30 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110138.TAA21400@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 8:38 PM -0500 11/10/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:33:04 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > >> Theft, violence and extortion are already legitimate, not only does >> the government use them all the time, but corporations and indivuduals do >> as well. > >True, at least under a democratic system we can prevent some of the more >gross abuses by government and can address the inter-personal issues with >something besides a nylon jacketed .357. Your anarcho-whatever doesn't even >provide that. So you really think I'd shoot you over this discussion? Some "interpersonal disputes" diserve to be settled with a .357, some with discussion. >> There is no (or little) justice under the current system. When was >> the last time a cop went to jail for a murder that he/she committed while >> on duty. Is OJ behind bars? >Several cops in Houston were fired (they got no-billed by the Grand Jury) >just last week because of a similar issue. There are two cops here in Austin I know. They didn't even get _TRIED_ just waved a miss. >who went to jail because of a murder (they held a kid down on a water bed >and he suffocated) charge. The current public overwatch group was the result >of a police call that got out of hand last year and the police had two >choices - either give the people what they asked for or end loose the civil So this oversight group is less than a year old? Wait, see what it's like in ten years. >rights case. The two cops who beat Rodney King ended up doing time. Which was a total injustice. >Nobody proved to the jury beyond a shadow of a doubt he was guilty. It is >far better to let a dozen guilty men go free than to imprison a single >innocent one. Our legal system may have its problem but I guarantee that a >lot more guilty people get off scott free than innocent people end up in >jail. The cops often play judge and jury, and if you complain you have parking tickets and tow bills the rest of the time you live in that city. >There is more than a little justice under the current system (OJ being the >perfect example - like it or not). If that is justice, then the system NEEDS dismantling. >> We have courts of Law, Justice is ashamed to show her face. >Somehow I doubt that. If justice is ashamed of anything its that citizens of >this country don't participate more and express their views with more >conviction. My wife shows up for every single jury summons she gets (I think she gets them for both of us) she takes a book, wanders down (or up) to the court house, and waits to be dismissed, since she is an educated white middle class person, the lawyers have no use for her. It's the system. > >> We recognize that these interactions exist, but guess what, for any >> sort of anarchy to exist, it has to happen globally. We are as concerned >> about the people on the other side of the planet as we are about the people >> in the next city over. Just not much. > >Which, considering that anarchic systems permit murder, theft, rape, >extortion, etc. without reprisal or limits, means that the vast majority of Every system permits murder, theft, rape and extortion, it just limits it to certain people. > >> No, we assume the opposite, that nothing works for large numbers of >> people, and everyone should be free to find their own level. > >If nothing works for large numbers of people then why should this? Anarchy >isn't freedom, it's opportunity to make huge profits with no responsiblity >and at the expence of others (who are treated as a market commodity and not >human beings). Because some of use prefer to live free. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 11:42:20 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 03:42:20 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <3648A8A0.46A41EFC@nyu.edu> Message-ID: At 9:22 AM -0500 11/11/98, Albert P. Franco, II wrote: >You obviously think that anything goes in business. Frankly Gates is a >perfect example of why you anarcho-BS is doomed to failure. He will do >anything (and has) he can to be the only player in every market he touches. And despite this, and his having large numbers of lawyers on his side, and despite having large quantities of cash to persue advertising, LINUX IS KICKING HIS ASS IN THE SERVER MARKET, and poised to do the same on the desktop. Linux had little corporate funding (some Government thru it's subsidies of colleges and the internet), almost no advertising, and no, or negative mindshare until recently. >He has destroyed otherwise perfectly good businesses and products just to >increase his profits. He has violated workers rights to increase his >profit. In short he has demonstrated that if you let him murder wouldn't be >to far a step to reach his goals. Ah, but if we let HIM, then we'd have that shot as well. >He is the monster that proves that your ideas are actually very very old He is not a monster, he is just doing what many other businessmen have done down thru the years. >And so everybody's so busy shooting each other that nobody is investing, >and I have to ask, "What happened to the capitalism part of >anarcho-capitalism?" You assume that people will always be shooting. Most will figure out that guns really aren't an economical solution to most problems. Remember the "Bad, Bad" wild west? Well, it seems that despite what the movies tell you, you are more likely to get shot today in parts of Chicago or LA than in most of the Old West. Why? Guns really don't pay as a wealth _getter_, only as a wealth keeper. >War is simply not good economics, and anarchy is war--constant, festering, >sometimes small scale, sometimes large scale, but always war. By that comparison, so is life. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From lcottrell at anonymizer.com Wed Nov 11 11:58:10 1998 From: lcottrell at anonymizer.com (Lance Cottrell) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 03:58:10 +0800 Subject: Anonymizer developer positions available. Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Anonymizer Inc. is looking for programers to work on various projects under development. We have two positions available, one short term contract work, the other full time. Contract programmer: Term: 1-2 months Skills: Visual Basic, Windows API, TCP networking Full time development team leader: Skills: C / C++ PERL UNIX TCP Networking / sockets For either position send email and resume to me at . We are looking for people who share our passion for free speech and privacy. -Lance Cottrell Lance M. Cottrell lcottrell at anonymizer.com Anonymizer, Inc. President Voice: (619) 667-7969 Fax: (619) 667-7966 www.Anonymizer.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNknmc8VB0soGGMVrEQIHZwCg8LUShD1hd+EUHbWewgyDbWv0mlUAniBO MXykZTIrYLEIE1F8HskuLhLz =CZu9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 13:19:15 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:19:15 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811111750.LAA25041@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 12:50 PM -0500 11/11/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:49:23 -0500 >> From: Petro >> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone >> (fwd) >> And the system protects them. Pinochet wasn't handed over to spain >> now was he. >> It's the system. >No, it's the British system. And to be honest it should be the American >system also. A country should have jurisdiction only within its own borders. >Other countries should have agreements about how persons accussed of crimes >should be extradited. So leaders should be able to do whatever they want within their own borders w/out the possibility of being held responsible for what they do to citizens of other countries who just happen to be visiting? What about rule by law? >In the anarcho-whatever system this is all eliminated because we've >eliminated crime in the first place by legitimizing any and all strategies. We've also eliminated the government that allowed pinochet to be the kind of person he was. >> In N.C, Tennesee (IIRC), Illinois, and North Carolina (especially >> N.C.) it's the state. >Then have the law changed in those states or you could move to Texas. That was not the point, the point was about black market goods. > >> Crap. Pure B.S. What lead to it's regulation was a bunch of broads >> who didn't want ANYONE drinking, so they pushed for abolition, which was a >> total disaster, and lead to repeal. > >No, that was prohibition. The taxation of alcohol goes back equaly far in Sorry, was thinking prohibition and typing abolition. >the history of this country. To before the articles of confederation even >since Britian required taxes on rum and related items - espcialy if they >were from non-British ports - if you would stop knee-jerking responces and >think back the Tax Acts were one of the reasons we had a revolution in the >first place. Tea, rum, and whiskey were one of the primary motivations. So then you admit you were lying about the deaths and blindness being the cause of regulation, since you claimed it happend in the late 1800's & early 1900's, but the regualtion and taxing went all the way back to the middle ages? >> Ever heard of "Muckraking"? Yellow Journalism? Could it have been >> that that lead to some of this B.S. regulation? Nah, the press never would >> have done something like that. > >Actualy, the fact that you admit that the press can be in colussion with the >government and the businesses goes a long way toward demonstrating that >anarcho-anything won't work because it will be even harder for It prevents businesses from using the Press to manipulate the government into doing something about a problem that doesn't exist. >whistle-blowers and 'social do-gooders' to get their message out (unless >they're well heeled and don't mind loosing it all in the process). That is already/still the case. You piss off the wrong people, you die. >> Remember the movie "Reefer Madness", and the Jim Crow drug laws of >> the early 1900's? Couldn't be that people in positions of power at the time >> had certain agendas and used lies to further them could it. > >People always have agenda's (this is segues nicely into what Blanc was >saying about attitudes), that's my point and one of the reasons that >anarcho-whatever won't work is because it doesn't recognize this nor does it >put any sort of limit on its expression. It INHERENTLY recognizes it, and inherently limits it. No one has the power. THAT'S THE POINT. >> Nah, people in government NEVER behave like that. >People always behave that way, it's the way people are. Being in government >is only another mechanism it gets expressed through. Business is another. Some agendas can't be pushed thru business, or at least not the same way. >> No I didn't, EVEN IF I GET THEM LEGALLY, if I turn around and sell >> them, it's black market, that was muy fucking point, I'm sorry if you can't >> comprehend that sort of thing. > >If the doctor gives them to you without a valid medical reason then you >didn't get them legaly. Techicaly the doctor is in violation for trafficking >and you would be in violation for possession and use of a controlled Damn you're fucking DENSE. I wasn't arguing that, I KNOW that, I ACCEPT THAT, THAT WAS NEVER THE FUCKING ISSUE. >substance. If you knew full well that you weren't going to use them and took >them anyway then you in effect stole them because you misled the doctor into >giving them to you. Now if you simply sold them because you didn't like their >side effects then only you are legaly culpible. If I got them legally, they were a legal commodity, if I dispose of them legally, they move from the "white" market, to the "black" market. That was my entire fucking point. >Now, your point that not everything on the black market is stolen is well >take as I've said before (you just didn't read it, it at least explains why You keep arguing these side points like you don't understand what I am saying. The fact that not everything on the black market was stolen ISN'T the point, the point is that there can be things on the black market that aren't stolen, and aren't inherently illegal (tomatoes, vicadan, alcohol) but are still part of the black market because of the nature of the market and the legal system. >you keep going over the same issue until you think I'll be badgered into >agreeing with you). The exception I take, and am still waiting for refuation >of, is that the *majority* of goods on the black market including drugs are >related to the theft of material or services from legitimate parties. That FUCKING BULLSHIT. YOu JUST brought introduced your thesis that even if most stuff isn't actually stolen, then it is bought with money gained by theft in your last post on this issue. Before that you were maintaining that everything on the black market had to be stolen, and in fact this whole side argument occured because you disagreed with me on the fact that a black market is more defined in terms of the exchange being illegal rather than the product. Tell us Jim, is it a black market if I but a new car, from a registered dealer, with stolen money? Assuming neither he, nor anyone he knows, nor anyone I know, excecpt for me, knows the money is stolen? >As a history teacher once said: >The nice thing about America is anybody can believe anything, whether they >know what they are talking about or not. >I respect that sentiment. And apparently live it every day. >> I hated the shit, and didn't take it after the 2nd day, leaving me >> clear headed, but in pain. No big deal, I've been in pain before. I traded >> the rest of those drugs for an old computer. > >I certainly hope that no DEA agents are watching *and* you're not in the >US. Admitting to a crime in a public venue, whether in a public park or a >mailing list isn't the brightest strategy. If you're not in the US you >should probably hope that the NSA (or whomever) is too busy to pass along >this to the requisite authorities. I would suggest strongly that for future >such public admission you should use a pseudonym or an anonymous remailer. They better be worried about a lot bigger things than that. >> Either way, my point is still that the black market is about more >> than just if the _product_ is illegal, it also relates to the trade. >It has to do with something being illegal or not acceptable otherwise you >could just open up a store and start trading the items directly. In the vast >majority of cases it involves the theft of services or property from the >valid rights holder. My contention all along has been that it isn't about the product, it's about the trade, the market. >> Yeah, like anyone really knows for sure. >Well that pretty much shoots a hole in your point as well if that is your >position. However, since the manufature of vehicles is accounted far to No it doesn't. It is my contention that in the drug trade, most of the people buying come by their money thru mechanisms other than theft. This could be from holding down a Job (as many drug users do), begging, prostitution, or other sources than stealing. (there is some SSI diability fraud there, and I am not denying that theft IS used, just that it's not the primary method). >at least the 10's place by auto manufacturers and the sale of legitimate cars >is traceable through tax and title I'd say that it is possible to make >educated guesses about the scale of the market. Of the Auto Theft Market. Now find a way to prove what percentage of that money goes to support the drug trade. >> Because I know a lot of people who've bought drugs, and for the >> most part it was with money they earned or receieved thru legal means. >No, you know some people who have bought drugs, just as I do. However, No, I know a LOT of people who have bought drugs. Not most of the people who have bought drugs, but a LOT of people. >claiming that the small set you know of personaly qualifies as a lot is an >invalid hyperbole. There are millions of drug users in this country, and >in your entire life you've only met a few thousand at best. Or at worst, but your point is valid. Then again, it applies equally to yourself, that there really is no way of knowing. >> Your question is ignorant and irrelevant, but to answer it: Brokers. >Oh, you mean fences... No Jim, fences purchase a product for (I am given to understand that %5 > I have something to sell, but I don't want to hassle with finding a >> buyer. Joe has a lot of connections, but no goods to sell, and you are a >> buyer. I let joe know I have product, he makes the deal, and I hire Omar to >> deliver it to you. Joe never even sees the merchandise, but is effectively >> the seller. > >You have to have possession in order to pass possesion to Joe so that he can >sell it and pass you possession of the receipted funds (minus Joe's cut). >Whether that possession is measured in immediate physical control (ie in >your pants pocket) or more general (eg stored in a rent-room under an >assumed name) is irrelevant. Yeah, the more I think thru this, joe would either be considered a "seller", or a "trusted third party. >> No, and for you to even say it in that manner is complete >> disingenious. > >Your the one who said shoot them, what's the matter find your baby to ugly >to look at? Produce the text where I said that it is always Ok to shoot someone with whom you have a diagreement. Pull it out. >I suspect that the emotionaly challenged will continue to shoot each other >irrespective of the political system implimented. If you take guns away >they'll knife each other and if you take knives away they'll beat each other >to death. Yeah, and the system protects assholes like OK and the entire Male side of the kennedy clan (well, John got what was coming to him...) >Which raises an interesting point, more people are killed by physical >assault according to the FBI crime stats than guns each year. What is interesting about that? Just shows that your system doesn't do shit to stop killings. >> say, we had a car accident and were resolving that (unless you had done >> something like driving drunk and blatantly violating common sense rules of >> the road like running a stop sign or a red light, in which case you are a >> threat to me and others). > >Ah, I see. So your position is that if somebody runs a stop light then that >is grounds to shoot them. If somebody shows that they have a lack of respect for other peoples saftey, what do you suggest we do with them? Cars are implicated in more deaths every year than occured occured during any 2 years of the Vietnam war, driving in disregard for the law and for saftey is like waundering drunk around waving a loaded .357 What would you suggest be done to someone waundering around drunk off his ass and pointing a .357 at people? -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 11 15:12:38 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:12:38 +0800 Subject: DCSB: Mary Ellen Zurko; Jonah, IBM, Open Source, and Digital Commerce Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:07:03 -0500 To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce at ai.mit.edu From: Robert Hettinga Subject: DCSB: Mary Ellen Zurko; Jonah, IBM, Open Source, and Digital Commerce Cc: "Heffan, Ira" , Roland Mueller Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents Mary Ellen Zurko Security Architect, Iris Associates "Oh Jonah, He lived in a whale", or, How IBM decided to win in ecommerce by embracing standards and donating code Tuesday, December 1st, 1998 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA IBM was faced with the question a year ago of how to move from a slow starter to a leader in security infrastructure for ecommerce. Our traditional response to that sort of question had been "Hey kids, let's buy a company!" However, innovative internal forces recognized the power of the current standards and open source movements. We targeted the IETF PKIX standards as the most likely to move ecommerce forward, hired a team of experts in security and PKI and situated them in MA, drafted existing IBM experts in CDSA and smart cards, put together the first cross IBM/Lotus/Iris team and the first group with a charter to write freeware, and delivered the initial code drop to the MIT web site hosting it in September. The team and the freeware are called Jonah. This talk will cover the background, current status, and future of the Jonah effort. Mary Ellen Zurko is Security Architect at Iris, the folks who brought you Lotus Notes. She previously worked at The Open Group. She spent the four years before Jonah leading research in innovative and usable distributed authorization solutions, which posited the solution of the distributed authentication problem. Her current work on public key authentication and infrastructures is karmic revenge for such hubris. She has published papers in user centered security, roles based access control, WWW security and high assurance operating systems. She is an organizer of the New Security Paradigms Workshops and a member of the IW3C2, which runs the international WWW conferences. This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, December 1, 1998, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $32.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and the speaker's lunch. ;-). The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business attire" (whatever that means), for women. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code. We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, November 28th, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $32.50. Please include your e-mail address, so that we can send you a confirmation If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Upcoming speakers for DCSB are: January Ira Heffan Internet Software and Business Process Patents February Roland Mueller European Privacy Directive We are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, . For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send "info dcsb" in the body of a message to . If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in the body of a message to . We look forward to seeing you there! Cheers, Robert Hettinga Moderator, The Digital Commerce Society of Boston -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 iQEVAwUBNkn8T8UCGwxmWcHhAQH/6wf9EAXIGyox0VsqMHbO23ONy8as3htAahM0 liUOC9nj3Djjz8TCU0RRv2KckdkpyVrt0jb36NgPvgPCrLOpK682o8Q2VBFqaqUB q3+gtrdhpLUYffAJ02PvK9DvOCeb/zyWTmZ6rti/3tgTCHAjuiaL41Ryvg8u6J+A DqFR1Adk+xhnVlpzzelGI1IIBrI9fjqdAza9oK1Ub5LZ9Cc5MaU3417XsnCVVL3j MJRs3BGPiUKwFSeMO6PTSs916wrIoXXiY4KoeFD2qjLqidJbgOQoGZamEkQd5TOJ 1C5cYslIcUsH95TEVWPhs1YjT04WnU964X8FRbxsQtfQ4zk/lSFPbg== =sRPk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb-announce Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb-announce If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Wed Nov 11 15:33:45 1998 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:33:45 +0800 Subject: Free Email as Anonymous Remailer Re: NPR is at it again... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111015237.0079f350@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: > I suspect this is what will replace the current remailer system - > chaining through some set of Crowds, Onions, and commercial and free > anonymizers to reach a free email system to transmit and receive email. > An interesting project would be a free low-volume anonymizer cgi for Apache, > given the large number of current users and the much larger number > of people who will run web servers once they have cable modems. How do you do chaining with a cgi? -- Lucky Green PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. From fisherm at tce.com Wed Nov 11 16:02:01 1998 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:02:01 +0800 Subject: FW: RFC 2440 on OpenPGP Message Format Message-ID: <2C396693FBDED111AEF60000F84104A721C062@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: RFC Editor [SMTP:rfc-ed at ISI.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 5:06 PM > Cc: rfc-ed at ISI.EDU > Subject: RFC 2440 on OpenPGP Message Format > > > A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. > > > RFC 2440: > > Title: OpenPGP Message Format > Author(s): J. Callas, L. Donnerhacke, H. Finney, R. Thayer > Status: Proposed Standard > Date: November 1998 > Mailbox: jon at pgp.com, lutz at iks-jena.de, hal at pgp.com, > rodney at unitran.com > Pages: 65 > Characters: 141371 > Updates/Obsoletes/See Also: None > I-D Tag: draft-ietf-openpgp-formats-08.txt > > URL: ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2440.txt > > This document is maintained in order to publish all necessary > information needed to develop interoperable applications based on the > OpenPGP format. It is not a step-by-step cookbook for writing an > application. It describes only the format and methods needed to read, > check, generate, and write conforming packets crossing any network. > It does not deal with storage and implementation questions. It does, > however, discuss implementation issues necessary to avoid security > flaws. > > This document is a product of the An Open Specification for Pretty > Good Privacy Working Group of the IETF. > > This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. > > This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for > the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions > for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the > "Internet Official Protocol Standards" (STD 1) for the > standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution > of this memo is unlimited. > > This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. > Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list > should be sent to IETF-REQUEST at IETF.ORG. Requests to be > added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should > be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST at RFC-EDITOR.ORG. > > Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending > an EMAIL message to rfc-info at RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body > help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: > > To: rfc-info at RFC-EDITOR.ORG > Subject: getting rfcs > > help: ways_to_get_rfcs > > Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the > author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager at RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless > specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for > unlimited distribution.echo > Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to > RFC-EDITOR at RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC > Authors, for further information. > > > Joyce K. Reynolds and Alegre Ramos > USC/Information Sciences Institute > > ... > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version > of the RFCs. <> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:11:07 -0500 ATT30256 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bin00001.bin Type: application/octet-stream Size: 202 bytes Desc: "message/external-body" URL: From riburr at shentel.net Wed Nov 11 16:23:04 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:23:04 +0800 Subject: Nationalized Public Radio Message-ID: <364A22E6.75DEB52B@shentel.net> National Public Radio (NPR) today announced the appointment of Kevin Klose as the next President and CEO of NPR. His stint at The Washington Post included a position as Moscow Bureau Chief. He is currently Director of the US International Broadcasting Bureau (IBB). No need to hide your shortwave under the floorboards anymore, Voice of America is now on the FM airwaves. Story at: http://www.npr.org/inside/press/981111.klose.html From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 16:37:11 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:37:11 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811120005.SAA26844@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:23:43 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > So leaders should be able to do whatever they want within their own > borders w/out the possibility of being held responsible for what they do to > citizens of other countries who just happen to be visiting? Absolutely. It's what is meant by indipendent nation. It's between the leaders and the citizens. > What about rule by law? What about it? I don't believe in one world governments, it's a bad idea. Within the confines of a given country there should be a rule of law, that rule should not necessarily be the same as any other country. And other countries should most definitely NOT have a say in it. Do you want Germany having a say in our laws (for example)? > That was not the point, the point was about black market goods. No, the point was about freedom of choice. > So then you admit you were lying about the deaths and blindness > being the cause of regulation, since you claimed it happend in the late > 1800's & early 1900's, but the regualtion and taxing went all the way back > to the middle ages? Taxing went on, the regulation of alcohol production didn't occur in this country until after the Civil War. Taxing alcohol is a whole different issue than regulating the quality and methods of production, and is most certainly not equivalent to regulations on where it might be sold and under what conditions. > It prevents businesses from using the Press to manipulate the > government into doing something about a problem that doesn't exist. No it doesn't. The press is a business, and if you don't think they don't try to manipulate more than the government you're in for a surprise. There are cases of the press being manipulated because of the impact of certain story presentation lines on their income. > >whistle-blowers and 'social do-gooders' to get their message out (unless > >they're well heeled and don't mind loosing it all in the process). > > That is already/still the case. You piss off the wrong people, you > die. Actualy not, there are a variety of whistle-blower laws on the book at every level. Also the number of whistle-blowers who are killed currently are pretty small (name 3). A lot of them loose the jobs they blew the whistle on but that is many cases is to be expected (after all if the issue is important enough the business will cease to exist). > >put any sort of limit on its expression. > > It INHERENTLY recognizes it, and inherently limits it. No it doesn't, it does not in any way prevent abuse and further provides no mechanism for the restitution or correction of that abuse. > No one has the power. > > THAT'S THE POINT. No, the point is that whoever is the most ruthless will get ahead. If you don't think that is power then you should sit and think. > Some agendas can't be pushed thru business, or at least not the > same way. Such as? Greed and profit always can be pushed through business, it's what they do. > If I got them legally, they were a legal commodity, if I dispose of > them legally, they move from the "white" market, to the "black" market. Which requires that yot mislead the doctor as to why you want them. > The fact that not everything on the black market was stolen ISN'T > the point, the point is that there can be things on the black market that > aren't stolen, and aren't inherently illegal (tomatoes, vicadan, alcohol) > but are still part of the black market because of the nature of the market > and the legal system. Why would anyone buy a commenly available item on the black market when they could go to the corner store and purchase it? They won't. People who are involved in the black market are there for profit. If they go down to the store and buy say tomatoes at $2/lb. whey would they sell them to you at $1.75/lb? They wouldn't. The alcohol and cigarettes you buy on the black market lack tax stamps are have bogus stamps. Why? Becuase the cost is much lower without the added tax and legitimate distribution expenses. > FUCKING BULLSHIT. YOu JUST brought introduced your thesis that even > if most stuff isn't actually stolen, then it is bought with money gained by > theft in your last post on this issue. Before that you were maintaining > that everything on the black market had to be stolen, and in fact this No, go back - I never said that. I have continously said that the majority of items on the black market are related to a stolen service or product. I stand by that statement. I'd go on but it's been a long day and I'm in no mood for this petty bickering. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bix at geekforce.org Wed Nov 11 16:50:43 1998 From: bix at geekforce.org (b!X) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:50:43 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed In-Reply-To: <199811111320.FAA09439@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote: # Without endorsing Tim's "need killing" views, I would like to point out # that Mr. b!X has a deeply flawed understanding of the Second Amendment and # constitutional history. Which would in no way affect the fact that it's asinine to try and use the First Amendment to make a point about the Second Amendment (as the parody does) because they are approached in entirely different ways to address entirely different things. Which was my central point. - b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) From jvb at ssds.com Wed Nov 11 17:53:27 1998 From: jvb at ssds.com (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:53:27 +0800 Subject: DCSB: Mary Ellen Zurko; Jonah, IBM, Open Source, and Digital Commerce In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Robert Hettinga wrote: > The Digital Commerce Society of Boston > > Presents > > Mary Ellen Zurko > > Mary Ellen Zurko is Security Architect at Iris, the folks who brought you > Lotus Notes. I suggest she be hung by her toes until she repents for that abomination. ;-) jim From jvb at ssds.com Wed Nov 11 18:01:18 1998 From: jvb at ssds.com (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:01:18 +0800 Subject: "social responsibility" was (dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect) (fwd) Message-ID: ** forwarded as requested ** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:04:57 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Choate To: Jim Burnes Subject: Re: "social responsibility" was (dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect) If you want a responce post it publicly. > > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > I am willing to pay for fire protection. I am not willing to pay > > > for "universal health care", "welfare", and other such nonsense. > > > > The Constitution happens to mention that the federal government is detailed > > with taking care of the general welfare. If you don't like that sort of stuff > > then get a Constitutional amendment passed. > > > > Wow. He said it. This proves that Jim hasn't really read any history > since public high school. > > Actually this is the central fallacy of those that haven't bothered to > actually read the federalist papers, the anti-federalist papers or the > constitution, much less say how it should be amended. > > If a constitutional amendment had to have been passed it would have been > to give the federal government unlimited power to do what they believe is > in the interests of our general welfare. Madison explicitly addressed > the issue of unlimited federal power emanating from the welfare clause. > > Had the supreme court bothered to read the founder's writings on this > they would have found it in a week or two. That's assuming their > conclusion was not already decided. > > The constitution is a document that enumerates the powers of the federal > government. It is very specific. As Madison stated, if the general > welfare clause meant what the socialist engineers wished it meant, there > would have been no need to enumerate the specific powers of the federal > government. In fact, it would have been as if the founding fathers had > said: > > "The federal government has unlimited power to do whatever it > feels necessary." > > "The powers of the federal government are as follows" > > (1) > (2) > (3) etc > > Which would be ridiculous on its face. > > The reality of the situation is that Roosevelt kept trying to stack the > Supreme Court. He eventually suceeded in appointing his socialist > crony judges to "reinterpret" the constitution. The first result > of this was that Social (in)Security was ruled constitutional because > it was in "the general welfare". > > This was probably the last nail in the coffin of the Republic. The first > nail was imposing huge export duties on cotton in order to limit demand > outside the country -- in effect driving down cotton prices so it could be > had cheaply by the northern industrial (clothing/textile) markets. > Southern states saw this as blatant price controls. In their inability to > change the taxes they sought to leave the union. A prime example of the > old adage -- "the power to tax is the power to destroy". In this case it > was destroying the union itself. Only after the war was on did the north > use the anti-slavery propaganda to peddle their cause. And use it to good > advantage they did. I'm glad the slaves were emancipated, but I wish > it were done with less blood and more foresight. > > Bear in mind that as a libertarian I view slavery as one of the ultimate > evils. However, the northern industrialists had no leg to stand on > because they were one of the prime beneficiaries of cheap labor and thus > cheap cotton prices during the era of westward expansion. Never mind that > only the wealthy in the south owned slaves. If that was so, why was the > opposition to the feds so virulent? > > By 1913, Jekyl Island was a done deal. The income tax and the federal > reserve banking system were unleashed. A concise discussion of this is > beyond the scope of this posting. Needless to say centralized federal > power was on the move. The system of institutionalized fiat currency was > one of the main causes of the 1929 crash that put Roosevelt in power. It > was that "government breaks your leg, government hands you a crutch, > government becomes savior" mentality that resulted in the endless cycle > of market distortions and power grabs that put us where we are now. > > Does this mean that Roosevelt was "evil". No. Just that, as one > playwrite once said, "the conflict of good against good is much more > interesting". Well-intentioned "good people" have contributed more to the > misery of the human race that any other factor alone. I'm sure that > Roosevelt felt he was doing "good" when he undid the Republic. His > crowning achievment was his stacking of the Supreme Court and the > resulting unlimited expansion of federal power. If this country survives > Y2K it will have to contend with the issue that the scope of the federal > government's power is not unlimited. Something has got to give. Y2K > seems as likely a bifurcation and surfaction point as any. > > Maybe Hettinga is right. Economics, like physics obeys the "reality is > not an option" rule. When centralized bureacracy becomes too expensive > the invisible hand will select something more efficient. > > jim > > > > > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 18:16:47 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:16:47 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can call it that) [CNN] (fwd) Message-ID: <199811120155.TAA27276@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:59:11 -0500 (EST) > From: Rabid Wombat > Subject: Re: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can call it that) [CNN] > Why would this be "unconstitutional?" Juries are to be composed of your peers taken from the community in which the crime occurred. A single judge doesn't make a jury of ones peers. > Are you at all familiar with the case? There seems to be a fair amount of > evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, that would indicate a certain > politically and financially powerful family used its influence to keep > the two prime suspects in the case from coming to trial for over 20 > years. Irrelevant, one doesn't throw away the justice system because it might have been abused. One wrong does not justify another. > One judge is better than nothing. OTOH, maybe a football, a few pine > trees, and some vertical slope would do justice. Actualy 10 guilty men walking free is better than one innocent man in jail, or a justice system that gets abused. > (Or do you think there should be a statute of limitations involved?) Irrelevant. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Wed Nov 11 18:21:24 1998 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:21:24 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can call it that) [CNN] In-Reply-To: <199811110414.WAA22671@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: Why would this be "unconstitutional?" Are you at all familiar with the case? There seems to be a fair amount of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, that would indicate a certain politically and financially powerful family used its influence to keep the two prime suspects in the case from coming to trial for over 20 years. One judge is better than nothing. OTOH, maybe a football, a few pine trees, and some vertical slope would do justice. (Or do you think there should be a statute of limitations involved?) -r.w. On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > Forwarded message: > > > X-within-URL: http://www.cnn.com/US/9811/10/kennedy.testimony.ap/ > > > STAMFORD, Connecticut (AP) -- A Florida judge on Tuesday ordered the > > elderly brother of Ethel Kennedy to testify before a Connecticut grand > > jury investigating a 1975 slaying in which his two sons are suspects. > > > > Rushton Skakel, 74, of Hobe Sound, Florida, was ordered to testify > > about what he knows about the slaying of Martha Moxley, a 15-year-old > > Greenwich girl who was bludgeoned to death with a golf club. > > ... > > > The case stalled for years but was revived this spring by the > > appointment of a grand jury consisting of a single judge. > > [remainder deleted] > > Now if that isn't unconstitutional I don't know what is. He and his lawyer > should be screaming bloody murder (figuratively). > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want > the right answers. > > Scully (X-Files) > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 18:55:37 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:55:37 +0800 Subject: "social responsibility" was (dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect) (fwd) Message-ID: <199811120230.UAA27385@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:27:21 -0700 (MST) > From: Jim Burnes > Subject: Re: "social responsibility" was (dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect) (fwd) > > Actually this is the central fallacy of those that haven't bothered to > > actually read the federalist papers, the anti-federalist papers or the > > constitution, much less say how it should be amended. That's an easy way to brush aside having to prove your point. Especialy after having drawn a completely illogical and incorrect conclusion like this. > > If a constitutional amendment had to have been passed it would have been > > to give the federal government unlimited power to do what they believe is > > in the interests of our general welfare. This sentence makes no sense, mind rewording it so I know specificaly what it is your talking about. No amendment has to be passed. > Madison explicitly addressed > > the issue of unlimited federal power emanating from the welfare clause. Would you mind explaining where providing for the *general* welfare equates to unlimited powers? No government has unlimited powers and providing for the general welfare can't honestly be extrapolated to that conclusion. Within the context of the Constitution general welfare is in reference to building a framework for the expression of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. > > Had the supreme court bothered to read the founder's writings on this > > they would have found it in a week or two. That's assuming their > > conclusion was not already decided. Found what? Whose conclusions, the founding fathers or the sitting supremes? > > The constitution is a document that enumerates the powers of the federal > > government. It is very specific. And prohibits the enumeration of individual liberties by the same government. Rather handy little situation that, since it completely blows holes in any move to derive totalitarian control (which by the way is not democratic). As Madison stated, if the general > > welfare clause meant what the socialist engineers wished it meant, there > > would have been no need to enumerate the specific powers of the federal > > government. Well to be accurate there was no enumeration of the specific powers in the original Constitution, it's why Jefferson (who was in France at the time), Madison, and others fought and supported the Bill of Rights. Because of the 9th and 10th such moves are inherently doomed to failure. In fact, it would have been as if the founding fathers had > > said: > > > > "The federal government has unlimited power to do whatever it > > feels necessary." > > > > "The powers of the federal government are as follows" > > > > (1) > > (2) > > (3) etc > > > > Which would be ridiculous on its face. This entire section is ridiculous. To say on one hand the powers are unlimited and then to proceed to list them weakens the argument, this was also the reason for the 10th. It prevents such extrapolations as this. > > The reality of the situation is that Roosevelt kept trying to stack the > > Supreme Court. Wow, I didn't realize Roosevelt was even alive to participate in the original Constitutional debates. I'm going to stop here since we are obviously off on one of your pet peeves that isn't related to the discussion at hand. To jump 150 years in one fell swoop is pretty extraordinary. The reality is, as Jefferson himself said, that the laws of one generation aren't the laws of another. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 19:18:17 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:18:17 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811120005.SAA26844@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 7:05 PM -0500 11/11/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: >> So leaders should be able to do whatever they want within their own >> borders w/out the possibility of being held responsible for what they do to >> citizens of other countries who just happen to be visiting? > >Absolutely. It's what is meant by indipendent nation. It's between the leaders ^^^ Freudian slip? (no, I am not harrassing you about spelling, I don't have the moral authority on that point. >and the citizens. > >> What about rule by law? > >What about it? I don't believe in one world governments, it's a bad idea. >Within the confines of a given country there should be a rule of law, that >rule should not necessarily be the same as any other country. And other >countries should most definitely NOT have a say in it. There is an expectation that when one travels, one is protected by certain laws, at least the laws of the country that one is traveling to. There are also certain types of crimes that are so morally reprehensible that to allow them to continue is not possible. Or are you willing to go on record as stating that what Stalin did to the Jews (or Hitler for that matter) was acceptable, since we shouldn't have a say in their laws? >Do you want Germany having a say in our laws (for example)? They do already, it's called international trade. Also, if I were a Catholic in a death camp because Jesse Helms ramed thru legislation blaming the Y2K bug on the Holy C, I'd hope someone would intervine. >> That was not the point, the point was about black market goods. >No, the point was about freedom of choice. My comments were in regard to black market goods. > >> So then you admit you were lying about the deaths and blindness >> being the cause of regulation, since you claimed it happend in the late >> 1800's & early 1900's, but the regualtion and taxing went all the way back >> to the middle ages? > >Taxing went on, the regulation of alcohol production didn't occur in this >country until after the Civil War. Taxing alcohol is a whole different issue >than regulating the quality and methods of production, and is most certainly >not equivalent to regulations on where it might be sold and under what >conditions. But you claimed it started in the early 1900's in response to deaths and blindness. >> prevents businesses from using the Press to manipulate the >> government into doing something about a problem that doesn't exist. > >No it doesn't. The press is a business, and if you don't think they don't >try to manipulate more than the government you're in for a surprise. There >are cases of the press being manipulated because of the impact of certain >story presentation lines on their income. It prevents the press from manipulating the government because there ISN'T ONE, or if there is (in the case of extreme libertarian/minarchist) it is so restricted and powerless it can't do anything execpt try to gather more power. Yes, businesses can manipulate the press, and do-gooders can always start their own press and fight back. >> >whistle-blowers and 'social do-gooders' to get their message out (unless >> >they're well heeled and don't mind loosing it all in the process). >> That is already/still the case. You piss off the wrong people, you >> die. > >Actualy not, there are a variety of whistle-blower laws on the book at every >level. Also the number of whistle-blowers who are killed currently are Yeah, and there are laws against Drug Dealing which work real well. >pretty small (name 3). A lot of them loose the jobs they blew the whistle on I wanna say Karen something or other as one case--Silkwood? Point still holds, you speak out, you get in trouble, legal or no. Laws don't prevent things from happening, they simply give society the moral authority to say "We Warned You, Now Off With His Head" or some such. When was the last time you _didn't_ kill someone just because it is illegal? It's only been like twice in my life. Well, and another time a buddy took the gun out of my hands. >but that is many cases is to be expected (after all if the issue is important >enough the business will cease to exist). It's expected, but illegal? >> It INHERENTLY recognizes it, and inherently limits it. > >No it doesn't, it does not in any way prevent abuse and further provides no >mechanism for the restitution or correction of that abuse. It prevents government abuse, it prevents systemic abuse of power and authority. It also makes it easier to get people to resist abuse & to fight back, since the abuse isn't built in, nor do the abusers have any sort of "authority" to fall back on. >> No one has the power. >> THAT'S THE POINT. >No, the point is that whoever is the most ruthless will get ahead. If you Which is different from now HOW? Isn't Billy Gates one of your poster boys for being ruthless? Isn't he so far head of the rest of us that he could be in court for the rest of his life and not spend everything? Yeah, the current system really prevents the ruthless from getting ahead. >> Some agendas can't be pushed thru business, or at least not the >> same way. > >Such as? Greed and profit always can be pushed through business, it's what >they do. Damn, had one when I wrote that. Shit should have sited it. It basically fell into "at least not the same way". Greed is not an agenda, it is an emotion, Profit is an agenda. >> If I got them legally, they were a legal commodity, if I dispose of >> them legally, they move from the "white" market, to the "black" market. >Which requires that yot mislead the doctor as to why you want them. No it doesn't. I just showed you an example of one way to not mis-lead the doctor (I fully inteneded on taken the pills, I just didn't like them) a doctor and still get the meds. >> The fact that not everything on the black market was stolen ISN'T >> the point, the point is that there can be things on the black market that >> aren't stolen, and aren't inherently illegal (tomatoes, vicadan, alcohol) >> but are still part of the black market because of the nature of the market >> and the legal system. >Why would anyone buy a commenly available item on the black market when they >could go to the corner store and purchase it? They won't. People who are You can sometimes find people in Chicago selling cigerattes out of the trunks of their car. Allegedly this were purchased in a state (Indiana or Michigan) with lower taxes, and carried across state lines (which is illegal, if done for purpose of sale) to be sold for less than taxed cigarettes here. I can't speak more to this specifically since I don't know any more. >involved in the black market are there for profit. If they go down to the >store and buy say tomatoes at $2/lb. whey would they sell them to you at >$1.75/lb? They wouldn't. The alcohol and cigarettes you buy on the black >market lack tax stamps are have bogus stamps. Why? Becuase the cost is much >lower without the added tax and legitimate distribution expenses. Sometimes they don't bother with the stamps. This also doesn't mean that the product is stolen, it could simply be purchased in bulk in a lower cost market & transported. Kinda like Blue Jeans in the USSR. >> FUCKING BULLSHIT. YOu JUST brought introduced your thesis that even >> if most stuff isn't actually stolen, then it is bought with money gained by >> theft in your last post on this issue. > > Before that you were maintaining >> that everything on the black market had to be stolen, and in fact this > >No, go back - I never said that. I have continously said that the majority >of items on the black market are related to a stolen service or product. >I stand by that statement. You said: >Actualy a black market is usualy goods gotten through theft or other illegal >means, not necessarily anything related to how or what is sold. If you don't >corrupt free-market to include legitimizing theft as a viable market >strategy then yes, you can in fact have a black market in a free-market. Now, I took that to mean "The black market is usually trade in goods aquired thru theft or other illegal means", rather than "the black market is usually comprised of goods related to a stolen service, or product, or are paid for by money aquired the same way", this was in response to a query were I said: Assuming your definition of "free market" is "a market without regulation", you can't have a black market in a free market since a black market is trade in violation of regulations. In other words, a Black market is when you trade either illegal goods illegally, or legal goods illegally. If there are no illegal goods, and there is no regulations limiting trading, then the black market cannot exist. >I'd go on but it's been a long day and I'm in no mood for this petty >bickering. Yes, it has been a long day, and I'm in the mood to blow large holes in things, but my boss won't let me go to Boston (well, burlington) just yet. I just hope you're a better programmer than those schmucks at where we bought our latest peice of shit e-commerce package. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at playboy.com Wed Nov 11 19:27:24 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:27:24 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you cancall it that) [CNN] (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811120155.TAA27276@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 8:55 PM -0500 11/11/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:59:11 -0500 (EST) >> From: Rabid Wombat >> Subject: Re: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can >>call it that) [CNN] > >> Why would this be "unconstitutional?" > >Juries are to be composed of your peers taken from the community in which >the crime occurred. A single judge doesn't make a jury of ones peers. Jim, "Grand Jury", a jury to see if there is enough evidence to warrant a full trial. >Irrelevant, one doesn't throw away the justice system because it might have >been abused. One wrong does not justify another. Correct, but this isn't a guilty or innocent trial, this is a "is there enough evidence to try this person" type trial. This judge can't throw the perp in jail, only throw another trial where there will be 12 to judge. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From hugh at road.toad.com Thu Nov 12 12:58:32 1998 From: hugh at road.toad.com (Hugh Daniel) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:58:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: ANNOUNCE: SATURDAY Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting - Stanford University Message-ID: <199811122056.MAA15098@road.toad.com> The November Cypherpunks Meeting will be Saturday 11/14 from 1-5pm at Stanford, at the tables outside Tresidder Union, near the bookstore. The tables are on the west side, which is the inside of the U-shape. Coffee and food are available in the building. If the weather is uncooperative, we will also be inside the building. Lucky Green will be talking about his latest work. Hugh Daniel will update us on the new alpha of Linux FreeS/WAN. Bagels and Bagel Parephrenalia will be provided. Directions to Stanford Tresidder Hall Stanford is between El Camino Real and Junipero Serra Blvd, which are between 101 and 280. The Tresidder Parking Lot is on Mayfield Ave, off Campus Drive East. http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/search_map.html?keyword=&ACADEMIC=Tresidder+Union http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?234,312 The upside-down map of Stanford&Vicinity is at http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/vicinity.html Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 21:09:53 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:09:53 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can (fwd) Message-ID: <199811120446.WAA27641@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:52:06 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: Re: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can > call it that) [CNN] (fwd) > Jim, "Grand Jury", a jury to see if there is enough evidence to > warrant a full trial. > > >Irrelevant, one doesn't throw away the justice system because it might have > >been abused. One wrong does not justify another. > > Correct, but this isn't a guilty or innocent trial, this is a "is > there enough evidence to try this person" type trial. > > This judge can't throw the perp in jail, only throw another trial > where there will be 12 to judge. ARTICLE V. No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. ARTICLE VI. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have Assistance of Counsel for his defence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- By definition a jury is more than one, it's the reason they are implimented; to moderate the biases of the individual. Secondly, a judge is not impartial when acting in the stead of the state in two capacities at one time. Especialy when by their very nature they are at least to some degree confrontational. Dem's da rules bubba. The Kennedy lawyers should be throwing civil right shit fits about now. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 11 21:23:52 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:23:52 +0800 Subject: GOST still used? In-Reply-To: <199811111837.TAA12319@replay.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981111195910.008ba910@idiom.com> At 07:37 PM 11/11/98 +0100, Anonymous allegedly wrote: >Can anyone report whether GOST is still used anywhere? If you're asking "_Should_ I use GOST?", the answer is "No, not unless you really, really understand it, and there's something it does much better for you than more open cryptosystems, such as 3DES, RC4, or Blowfish." GOST isn't just one cryptosystem; it's a family with different S-Boxes, one or more sets for the Soviet military, one set commonly seen publicly, some sets made by software writers, etc. The strength depends critically on the values chosen for the S-Boxes, and the Soviet military kept theirs secure. Maybe the Russian Army or other ex-Soviet countries' armies use it, and maybe the KGB understood it well enough for this to be ok, if you think trusting the KGB or Soviet Military Intelligence for advice on cryptosystems can make something ok... But even if you understand the algorithm well enough to know how strong it is, and that's strong enough for you, why bother? There are publicly analyzed algorithms that are strong enough and well-analyzed, like 3DES, and algorithms that are fast and strong, like Blowfish or correctly-used RC4. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 21:36:15 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:36:15 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can (fwd) [a couple of other comments] Message-ID: <199811120514.XAA27764@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > ARTICLE V. > > No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise > infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, > except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, > when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any > person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of > life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness > against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without > due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, > without just compensation. It's important to read that part about depriving life, liberty, or property within the context of forced medication, deprivation of social contacts, etc. before a trial has even been held. A person is innocent until proven guilty, and that means you can deprive him of geographic freedom if they can't pay bail. Outside of that any interruption or loss of income is the responsibility of the state to recompensate. It should also guarantee that if found innocent the incident won't have an impact on current or future career and life opportunities. They're sworn to protect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness with their lives if necessary. That's why their called PUBLIC SERVANTS. Note that property may be taken by the state through due process, private property (my home, personal savings, papers, etc.) can't be siezed for *ANY* reason without just compensation. Businesses and shared accounts (such as 401k's perhaps) are fair game. I break the law and you want to take my house? Fucking get your check book out. Otherwise it's theft and that's a crime in principle and practice. This means that *EVERY* confiscation law on the books yesterday, today, or tomorrow are completely illegal if they allow confiscation of private property in relation to crime. If the LEA's, courts, politicians, etc. really, really, really believe that the people of this country want to allow them to confiscate their property in relation to criminal activity then they should parent an amendment to that effect immediately. I'll tell you now, it ain't got a hope in hell. And when the reckoning day comes on this particular issue it's going to be a doozie. > ARTICLE VI. > > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right > to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and > district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district > have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the > nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses > against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his > favor, and to have Assistance of Counsel for his defence. Note that the right to have *ASSISTANCE* of counsel is guaranteed. This means the state must provide you an attorney to assist in the correct process documentation *EVEN* if you represent yourself. Because it uses the term assistance there can be no implied power of attorney without direct and unconstrained and willing complicity by the accussed. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 23:10:49 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:10:49 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) Message-ID: <199811120647.AAA27853@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:34:10 -0500 > From: Petro > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > There is an expectation that when one travels, one is protected by > certain laws, at least the laws of the country that one is traveling to. Absolutely, that concept does not proscribe them from making a law to recognize the laws of other countries. It doesn't make it right but then again the freedom of choice implies the freedom to make mistakes. It figures that on occassion it'll be a whopper (TM). If Penoche didn't know that Spain could extradite him from England then he needs to hire a new lawyer. There is absolutely no expectation in the concept of freedom that prohibits one from walking into a police station and admitting a crime. This isn't even an issue, neither the British or the Spanish forced him to England. And the Spanish didn't force Britian to sign the treaty recognizing extradition. He got what he deserves. He was stupid to have treated anyone like that and he was stupid to go to England. He is a stupid man. My personal view is I don't care unless I am in that country. If I have an expectation to go somewhere I check on the laws before I'd go. > There are also certain types of crimes that are so morally > reprehensible that to allow them to continue is not possible. Absolutely, and each country should have it's right to choose it's own particular brand of reprehensibility recognized. > Or are you willing to go on record as stating that what Stalin did > to the Jews (or Hitler for that matter) was acceptable, since we shouldn't > have a say in their laws? Well, you have to understand I'm a pantheist. I know it's easy to shrug off and say "so what" but I can't answer this exactly unless you fundamentaly understand literal pantheism. But I'll try. I believe there is no transcendence. As a result everything is divine because that's all there is. To disrespect the uniqueness in anything is a disservice to self. However, concepts of literal sin to my view simply don't exist. The killing of a human by a human is not fundamentaly (think of it as outside of human society, it's close but not close enough) different than a human killing a rabbit, or crushing a rock, or painting a picture. It's an activity, in and of itself it is nothing more than a cold, cosmic event mediated by complete and utter indifference. The universe does not act with anthropocentric motives or mechanations. However, within the concerns of human biology, psychology, and society there is a very real distinction. As a matter of fact there are quite a few. Since they are all a construct of human existance they deserve some level of respect, the freedom of expression in speech and press, not necessarily in action. Because of the fundamental uniqueness of anything, to destroy or change it with willful intent (I wish I could express this better, all I can say is it isn't what normal English means by those two words exactly enough) except in self-defence or survival (eg killing an animal for food) is not moraly (permissible at the level of individual) or ethicaly (the range of permissible acts related to an activity, say a doctor or lawyer) supportable. I am willing to go on record stating that what they did from a national level should concern no nation that is not directly involved. Nations do not have the right to impose their will on other nations, period. Nations may of course dissolve and reform of their own free will and whim. From a personal level everyone should have run over there in about 1936 and kicked their stinking ass as volunteers (the fact that it is not in human nature to participate in mass exhibitions like this voluntarily is another reason that anarcho-whatevers won't work). From a fundamentaly cosmic perspective what they did is completely and utterly irrelevant and of no consequence. At the same time I'm horrified that human beings can do that to other people and live with themselves. The total lack of empathy I find utterly chilling. Poppy Z. Brite in carnate. Let me give you another example, unless the US is attacked directly by Iraq we have no business threatening, let alone initiating, violence. But I'll do what I did the last time we got in a scrap with the rag-head, whatever I can. To do any less might cost somebody their life through my negligent short-term unprincipled self-interest, a sin of ommission for a man of no sins, I won't stop bitching about it either. Does that help any better? Life is a contradiction in motion. > >Do you want Germany having a say in our laws (for example)? > > They do already, it's called international trade. Me selling apples to a German doesn't involve their having a say in my law making unless I'm an idiot in making the laws I operate under. There are treaties, but the assumption is that they are entered into freely and with comprehension. If they don't and do well that's their problem. > Also, if I were a Catholic in a death camp because Jesse Helms > ramed thru legislation blaming the Y2K bug on the Holy C, I'd hope someone > would intervine. Congress can't make laws respecting establishments of religion. Not only can't they support any, they can't prohibit any, they can't even constitutionaly decide what a religion is. Per the 10th that is left to the individual states and their respective representative constitutions. > But you claimed it started in the early 1900's in response to > deaths and blindness. The regulation of the manufacture and sales of alcohol started after the civil war, late 1800' and early 1900's depending on your geography. It's impossible to set a single date since the various laws were'not all initiated at the same time. I believe somebody else is the person who equated prohibition with regulation. In general the laws were put in place because either there was a problem with tainted alcohol (this was a real problem in the very early 1900's because of the use of lead pipes and other amalgams that don't treat people nicely) or excessive consumption by the youth usualy (ala The Great Gatsby). The laws got a lot more draconian after prohibition was renounced. This is when many states really jumped on the taxation band-wagon. The reasoning behind the taxation of alcohol is the same today as it was in Jeffersons day. He said that the taxation was intended to reduce the use because of its debilitating effects. Then of course there is the consideration of what a government can do with that money as well. This taxation is what started the Whiskey Rebellion in the late 1790's. Jefferson finaly repealed it after quite a string of violence in the early 1800's (sorry I don't remember the actual dates, a web search on Whiskey Rebellion would probably turn something up). During the whole thing Washington was riding his fat ass around buying cheap land and forceably moving people who had lived there, in general acting the little tyrant. He was involved in at least two related deaths and had invested in the business and supported the taxation. What's really interesting is that when these taxes were intiated in the early 1700's (originaly by the British) they were imposed on the manufacturer not the consumer even though they were to limit the consumption and not the manufacture. The history of alcohol is long and twisted. > It prevents the press from manipulating the government because > there ISN'T ONE, or if there is (in the case of extreme > libertarian/minarchist) it is so restricted and powerless it can't do > anything execpt try to gather more power. True, but then the news papers (they are not the same as the press - where that commen misconception is from is beyond my keen) would just pander to their extant major supporter, advertisers. How honest do you think that would make them? Not very. If given the choice between the truth or a fatter check newspapers (and their reporters) have in general chosen the way of the greenback. Jefferson said he would never write a line in a newspaper, and didn't. He thought them vile. He however held the free press (he meant unrestrained communication between individuals) in high regard (obviously). > Yes, businesses can manipulate the press, and do-gooders can always > start their own press and fight back. Who do they buy the press parts from? The ink and paper? The distribution channles? Etc. You might be able to start one up but you won't last long in a monotonicly profit driven free-market. If they rake muck too much they won't have a rake anymore. > Yeah, and there are laws against Drug Dealing which work real well. There's probably a lesson in there somewhere... > I wanna say Karen something or other as one case--Silkwood? That was one of the ones I was thinking of. > Point still holds, you speak out, you get in trouble, legal or no. > Laws don't prevent things from happening, they simply give society the > moral authority to say "We Warned You, Now Off With His Head" or some such. They moderate and mediate those actions and in fact do set a limit on what can occur at the social level. I'll say it again, government isn't for regulating individual interactions at the daily level. It's simply too fine grain. It will control trends and behaviours with a good deal of aplomb (if it's not abused) - and I'm talking specificaly of a republican democracy like the US has. Governments address the general parameters of a society. > When was the last time you _didn't_ kill someone just because it is > illegal? Every time. I can think of three times. Two accidents hunting and the third a crazy with a knife. On a personal level I felt my sense of justification from committing such an act didn't equate to me spending time in jail. They're still alive, and I didn't do time. Works for me. In all three times I could have shot them and walked off, I wouldn't have been found and there were no connections. All three times were completely random events, hapinstance. I quit hunting after the second hunting event. I also don't go for long walks on the other side of the tracks at 2am anymore when I can't sleep. Some junior high kid tried to rob me. > It's expected, but illegal? How can it be illegal if there are no bodies to create them, courts to ejudicate them, supposedly unbiased police to enforce them. Now if we agree that human nature isn't going to change then there is still the unanswered (but asked a few dozen times) as to what the exact mechanism is that prevents abuse. Simply saying that people will find out is not historicaly reliable, people just don't volunteer for those sorts of things. Their first reaction is to stay out of it. Even if they find out what do they do about it? Go to a similar business down the street that operates identicaly? > It prevents government abuse, it prevents systemic abuse of power > and authority. Rape is rape, the point is to prevent it. Not just prevent it from your father. > It also makes it easier to get people to resist abuse & to fight > back, since the abuse isn't built in, nor do the abusers have any sort of > "authority" to fall back on. People are more likely to suffer injustice as long as its sufferable. It's a rare event to incite a large population to violence. > Which is different from now HOW? At least now there are limits to how ruthless they may be. You don't see tanks on your street corner, there aren't troops of men running around dragging people out of their homes because they're catholic or read 'Catcher in the Rye' or 'Atlas Shrugged' and shooting them. And people (like us right now) get to bitch about it with as near complete impunity as is possible in a real world. Hell through the amendment process we can concievably bypass the federal government completely. All that is required is the calling of a convention, which the federal government have no authority over (especialy since the right to peaceably assemble is protected and it don't get much more peaceable than a constitutional convention). > Isn't Billy Gates one of your poster boys for being ruthless? Isn't > he so far head of the rest of us that he could be in court for the rest of > his life and not spend everything? What makes Bill Gates reprehensible is not what he did with Microsoft, though the company as a whole should suffer. They certainly made profit together, they should share the flip side of the coin. Why I hold Bill Gates in so low esteem is his moral standing. A perfect example is hurricane Mitch. The World Bank came up with a tad over $100M for releif. Bill makes that in a few days. Here is a man with the means to institute huge social, political, and economic change that at his level is a pittance and he does nothing. He is scum. He made his bed, let him lie in it. He didn't help others when they could have used it at little to no impact to him, why should they extend a helping hand in return? This is another excellent example of why anarcho-whatevers won't work. The psychology of the truly wealthy is so self-interested and goal-oriented instead of principled that they almost become pathological in their lack of empathy. The claim is that succesful business will be some sort of utopic, empathetic social force. It won't be, it isn't in human nature. > Greed is not an agenda, it is an emotion, Profit is an agenda. True, but there are many potential motives that drive profit, greed is the most base one and as a result drives the lower levels of human activity. I gotta stop now, I'm sleepy. If I didn't get around to answering all the questions it's because there are lots of you and only one of me...ask again in a few days and I'll answer it then. Good night. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 11 23:16:12 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:16:12 +0800 Subject: update.401 (fwd) Message-ID: <199811120702.BAA27971@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:30:13 -0500 (EST) > From: physnews at aip.org (AIP listserver) > Subject: update.401 > INFLUENCE OF COSMIC RAYS ON EARTH'S CLIMATE. Do > SUREFIRE QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT, the ability to > interlink two quantum particles with practically 100% certainty, has > been achieved by a NIST group (Quentin Turchette, 303-497-3328), > advancing hopes for ultrapowerful quantum computers. Previously, > physicists obtained entangled particles as a byproduct of some > random or probabilistic process, such as the production of two > correlated photons that occasionally occurs when a single photon > passes through a special crystal. Receiving entangled pairs in this > way is fine for tests of quantum nonlocality (Update 399), but > entangling a large number of quantum particles--essential for > building a practical quantum computer--becomes much less likely if > it is dependent on a probabilistic process. In their "deterministic > entanglement" process, the NIST researchers trap a pair of > beryllium ions in a magnetic field. Using a predetermined sequence > of laser pulses, they entangle one ion's internal spin to its external > motion, and then entangle the motion to the spin of the other atom. > The group believes that it will be able to entangle multiple ions with > this process. (Turchette et al, Physical Review Letters, 26 October > 1998.) > THE PETAWATT is the name for what is currently the world's ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From scoops at quiknet.com Thu Nov 12 00:45:11 1998 From: scoops at quiknet.com (scoops) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:45:11 +0800 Subject: Fwd: GOST Message-ID: <199811120825.AAA03522@toad.com> >Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:50:36 -0800 >To: cypherpunks at toad.com >From: scoops >Subject: GOST > >Jetico a Finnish company (I believe) offers a number of encryption algorithms in its BestCrypt package, among which is GOST which it reports having a 256 key (it also sports Blowfish and DES as I recall). I also remember a few weeks ago reports in the press and on the List of a porn ring broken up and some agent involved saying that the some porn was encrypted in an old KGB program which sounded much like GOST. The implication is that it's transparent to the feds. However I have no idea about various levels at which it might be implimented. I'm sure the real experts on the List will fill you in. From whgiii at openpgp.net Thu Nov 12 01:28:15 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:28:15 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can (fwd) [a couple of other comments] In-Reply-To: <199811120514.XAA27764@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811120908.EAA06616@domains.invweb.net> In <199811120514.XAA27764 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/11/98 at 11:14 PM, Jim Choate said: >I break the law and you want to take my house? >Fucking get your check book out. Otherwise it's theft and that's a crime >in principle and practice. This means that *EVERY* confiscation law on >the books yesterday, today, or tomorrow are completely illegal if they >allow confiscation of private property in relation to crime. >If the LEA's, courts, politicians, etc. really, really, really believe >that the people of this country want to allow them to confiscate their >property in relation to criminal activity then they should parent an >amendment to that effect immediately. I'll tell you now, it ain't got a >hope in hell. And when the reckoning day comes on this particular issue >it's going to be a doozie. The sheeple don't care. The government has waged an effective propaganda campagne and only BadPeople (tm) get their property confiscated. Just like only BadPeople (tm) drink and drive, or consume unapproved plants, or smoke, or think BadThoughts (tm), ...ect. The sheeple have shown time and time again that they are unworthy of freedom and democracy that so many better men have fought and died for. There will not be any popular outcry against this or any other infringements by the sheeple, they are much more interested in worrying about cum stains on party dresses (or whatever the latest circus has to offer). -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From webmaster at 5se.com Thu Nov 12 22:25:30 1998 From: webmaster at 5se.com (5se Investment Research) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:25:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Term Returns: Value vs. Growth Message-ID: <003701be0ecd$dea21000$0c1c9ad1@default> Dear Fellow Investor, Recently two professors from the University of Chicago, Eugene Fama and Ken French, published a study demonstrating the difference in long term returns of value and growth stocks. The study encompassed almost all stocks on every major US exchange. This celebrated study presented overwhelming evidence that market forces tend to overreact to past events, pricing growth stocks too high, and value stocks too low. Because of these reactions, as a group, growth stocks produce below average returns for investors who purchase them at high prices, and value stocks produce above average returns for investors who purchase them at depressed prices. The professors used book to market value to correlate the long term returns. Value stocks having high book to market value and Growth stocks identified by a low book to market value. On average the stocks fitting the value criteria had average annual returns of 21.4% while growth stocks had only 8% average annual returns. Factoring in inflation, the real long term rate of return for value stocks is a bit over 15% but only 2.5% for the growth group. Essentially the study is a good reminder that, when it comes to investing, what goes around comes around. Good companies can experience bad times and be unfairly priced. Apple, IBM, Coke, American Express, and many other excellent companies have experienced the wrath of an unforgiving market, and yet, they are companies with a proven ability to persist in the face of large challenges. Identifying value is simple. All you have to do is look for Good companies experiencing temporary difficulties. This simple strategy will, if you are willing to wait out the storm, reward you with hefty long term returns and lower risk (as the F&F study also showed). Stocks that meet the F&F criteria for value and have solid management in todays market include: Callaway Golf Ensco Corp Reebok Advanta Corp To learn more about the F&F study read Robert Haugen's book "The New Finance" available at http://www.5se.com/5se1.htm Regards, Jeffrey Minich 5se Investment Research New at the 5se site ********************** PortfolioPower! Portfolio Management Model versions for both Excel 95 & 97. Special Upgrade price, only $19.95, for PortfolioPower! Trial Users. Includes a special single-issue online preview of the latest 5se Wealth Building Report. Instant online credit card payment processing and PortfolioPower! order fulfillment with your American Express, Visa, Mastercard, Diners Club, or Discover card. http://www.5se.com/secretproduct.htm From x at x.com Thu Nov 12 06:41:33 1998 From: x at x.com (x) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:41:33 +0800 Subject: Nationalized Public Radio Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981112060242.00737e6c@shell15.ba.best.com> Exceprts from: " Text of RFE/RL President Kevin Klose's Statements Prague, July 4 (RFE/RL) -- The following is a text of introductory remarks by RFE/RL President Kevin Klose today at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty: .... On this Independence Day, 1996, the two-hundredth twentieth celebration of the United States, we are also celebrating the second anniversary of the decision to move Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty to the former federal parliament building here in Prague. We are deeply honored that Mrs. Clinton has chosen our headquarters from which to make an historic, Indpendence Day address. .... History has taught that democracy cannot live in an information vacuum. indeed, a well-informed citizenry is essential for democracy and free-market economies to flourish. This powerful historic truth guides our radios each day. Our servces in 23 languages provide accurate, objective news and information to millions of people across 11 time zones. Citizens in newly-emancipated lands can be freed from the past by the power of information itself to establish civil societies. The stakes are enormous. Civil societies that guard human freedoms across our broadcast regions can guarantee a stable, peaceful future for all of Europe and the world. Our mission to assist democratic change, to combat nationalism and racism, must not falter. .... Here at the radios you will find 350 Czechs and Americans, and men and women from more than 20 other countries, working in harmony and partnership to broadcast truthful information for the sake of our homelands and the futures of our children. Thank you, one and all. Thank you, Mrs. Clinton, for joining us to celebrate our Independence Day. � 1996 Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, Inc. All Rights Reserved. " ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Disclaimer: This is a review and fair use, thank you very much, or should I pack my prison garb now? Since freedom cannot flourish in an information vacuum this posting is probably illegal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- At 06:51 PM 11/11/98 -0500, Frederick Burroughs wrote: > >National Public Radio (NPR) today announced the appointment of Kevin >Klose as the next President and CEO of NPR. His stint at The Washington >Post included a position as Moscow Bureau Chief. He is currently >Director of the US International Broadcasting Bureau (IBB). > >No need to hide your shortwave under the floorboards anymore, Voice of >America is now on the FM airwaves. Story at: > >http://www.npr.org/inside/press/981111.klose.html > > > From dlicence at dataforce.co.uk Thu Nov 12 06:59:12 1998 From: dlicence at dataforce.co.uk (Duncan Licence) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:59:12 +0800 Subject: acceptable user policies Message-ID: <01BE0D59.BC79C560.dlicence@dataforce.co.uk> hey there, I am having to formulate an acceptable user policy for the users. Does anybody know of any online references, or examples of such policies. This would have to include specifications like email use, internet access, games over the LAN - anything that you can get your head around pertaining to such. This of course would have to weigh up between the rights of the users and protection of the network and PCs Your help would be greatly appreciated Duncan From dlicence at dataforce.co.uk Thu Nov 12 08:15:52 1998 From: dlicence at dataforce.co.uk (Duncan Licence) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:15:52 +0800 Subject: acceptable user policies Message-ID: <01BE0D59.D688E9E0.dlicence@dataforce.co.uk> hey there, I am having to formulate an acceptable user policy for the users. Does anybody know of any online references, or examples of such policies. This would have to include specifications like email use, internet access, games over the LAN - anything that you can get your head around pertaining to such. This of course would have to weigh up between the rights of the users and protection of the network and PCs Your help would be greatly appreciated Duncan From stuffed at stuffed.net Fri Nov 13 01:55:23 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED FRI NOV 13) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:55:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981113081000.1148.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + ISLAND EROTICA + BIGGINS + WET WET WEB + INDIAN PORN + PURE PIX + WHITE CHOCOLATE + XXX FEMALES + HARDCORE SEX WITH ZOOM + CUMSHOT QUEENS + XXX 4 FREE + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/31225.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/15219.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/6401.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/9541.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/9140.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From fisherm at tce.com Thu Nov 12 10:27:37 1998 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:27:37 +0800 Subject: DCSB: Mary Ellen Zurko; Jonah, IBM, Open Source, and Digital Commerce Message-ID: <2C396693FBDED111AEF60000F84104A721C069@indyexch_fddi.indy.tce.com> >> Mary Ellen Zurko is Security Architect at Iris, the folks who brought you >> Lotus Notes. >I suggest she be hung by her toes until she repents for that >abomination. IIRC, back in the www-security mailing list days, she wasn't at Iris at all -- so she wasn't there when the original architecture was laid in place. MLF "former Notes admin" ========================================================== Mark Leighton Fisher Thomson Consumer Electronics fisherm at indy.tce.com Indianapolis, IN "Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on Me'" From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 12 10:30:07 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:30:07 +0800 Subject: Censorware Message-ID: <199811121732.SAA18731@replay.com> So, does the ADL censor Farrakan? Will the white supremecists publish their own "screen" to keep their brood pure ? Jewish censorware. Gotta love the irony. Time to re-fluoridate my precious bodily fluids. Thursday November 12 10:32 AM ET ADL And Learning Co. Create Hate Filter BOSTON (Reuters) - The Anti-Defamation League, which has been monitoring hate groups for 85 years, has teamed up with educational software maker The Learning Co. to create a filter that screens out hate sites on the Internet. Dubbed the ADL HateFilter and available from the ADL's Web site (www.adl.org), parents can install the screen on home computers and thereby keep ``bigotry and prejudice out of their homes,'' ADL National Chairman Howard Berkowitz said. The ADL HateFilter sits atop the Learning Co.'s Cyber Patrol product, a filter that is used by both parents and teachers to block children's access to Internet sites ''containing drug information, sexual text, nudity. Things that parents may consider inappropriate for children,'' a spokeswoman for Cambridge, Mass.-based software maker said. The ADL HateFilter does not just screen hate sites, but also provides a link to obtain information about the hate groups, the Learning Co.'s Susan Getgood said. ``We've basically been doing this for 85 years, we just transferred the information to the Internet,'' explained ADL spokeswoman Myrna Shinbaum. The sites filtered are those that in the ADL's judgment advocate hatred, bigotry or even violence toward Jews or other groups on the basis of their religion, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or other immutable characteristics. The ADL, founded in 1913, is holding its 85th annual National Commission meeting in Boston. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/tc/story.html?s=v/nm/19981112/tc/filter _1.html From dlicence at dataforce.co.uk Thu Nov 12 10:56:23 1998 From: dlicence at dataforce.co.uk (Duncan Licence) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:56:23 +0800 Subject: acceptable user policies Message-ID: <01BE0D85.9D742A80.dlicence@dataforce.co.uk> hey there, I am having to formulate an acceptable user policy for the users. Does anybody know of any online references, or examples of such policies. This would have to include specifications like email use, internet access, games over the LAN - anything that you can get your head around pertaining to such. This of course would have to weigh up between the rights of the users and protection of the network and PCs Your help would be greatly appreciated Duncan From jim.burnes at ssds.com Thu Nov 12 11:04:57 1998 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes - Denver) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:04:57 +0800 Subject: "social responsibility" was (dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811120230.UAA27385@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: > > > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:27:21 -0700 (MST) > > From: Jim Burnes > > Subject: Re: "social responsibility" was (dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect) (fwd) > > > > Actually this is the central fallacy of those that haven't bothered to > > > actually read the federalist papers, the anti-federalist papers or the > > > constitution, much less say how it should be amended. > > That's an easy way to brush aside having to prove your point. Especialy > after having drawn a completely illogical and incorrect conclusion like > this. > perhaps. it just seems so unbelievable that someone who had read all these would not understand that the US was founded as a constitutional republic with limited *powers*, a bill of *rights* that points out the rights that people already had and should protect. > > > If a constitutional amendment had to have been passed it would have been > > > to give the federal government unlimited power to do what they believe is > > > in the interests of our general welfare. > > This sentence makes no sense, mind rewording it so I know specificaly what > it is your talking about. No amendment has to be passed. > It makes absolute sense. The constitution enumerates the specific powers of the federal government. Please go get a copy and read it. You would have to create an amendment to give the federal government unlimited powers. For example, if the constitution had been written otherwise prohibition would never have needed an amendment. Legislators would just have said it was for the "general welfare". Having lived in the early 1900's and educated in the previous century they were still under the delusion that they lived in a republic. > > Madison explicitly addressed > > > the issue of unlimited federal power emanating from the welfare clause. > > Would you mind explaining where providing for the *general* welfare equates > to unlimited powers? I can't explain it to you because I don't believe it. I can tell you that that specific clause is what exploded the size and scope of federal power. It was specifically pointed to by the 1937 supreme court re the social (in)security decision. If you would like chapter and verse I can probably track it down. The supremes in 1937 used it and you used it in your email when you said that the general welfare clause was the the reason we had some sort of social contract. I can tell you that if you read the general welfare clause as meaning the feds have the power to do whatever the legislators and the executive believe is in our own best interests -- that opens them up to virtually unlimited powers. I'm sure Hitler, Mao and Stalin believed they were doing what was in the interests of the "general welfare" also. 91 million dead later you have your answer. Oops..I forgot about the Khmer Rouge.. make that 92 million. The problem with that kind of "general welfare" is that it is fundamentally incompatible with individual rights. > No government has unlimited powers and providing for > the general welfare can't honestly be extrapolated to that conclusion. Tell that to Hitler, Mao and Stalin. Tell that to the Japanese Americans that were interned in prison camps. Have we arrived at unlimited power yet, Jim? How about burning children alive in their own church without those responsible being punished? Have we arrived at unlimited power yet, Jim? > Within the context of the Constitution general welfare is in reference to > building a framework for the expression of life, liberty, and the pursuit of > happiness. > As much as I love Jefferson's prose, that is a part of the declaration of independence and not the constitution. The DOI is a document of intent, the constitution is a document of law. The general welfare clause is almost meaningless. Like the DOI it specifies intent, but not a specific delegation of power. The delegation of powers, the seperation of those powers and reservation of individual human rights are what is the motive forces behind the constitution. If the general welfare clause were a law it would have to be found invalid for vagueness. > > > Had the supreme court bothered to read the founder's writings on this > > > they would have found it in a week or two. That's assuming their > > > conclusion was not already decided. > > Found what? Whose conclusions, the founding fathers or the sitting supremes? Read it again, Jim. "bothered to read the *founder's writings* on this" > > > > The constitution is a document that enumerates the powers of the federal > > > government. It is very specific. > > And prohibits the enumeration of individual liberties by the same > government. Rather handy little situation that, since it completely blows > holes in any move to derive totalitarian control (which by the way is not > democratic). You seem to be confusing the concepts of "powers" and "rights". People have rights, institutions have powers. The constitution enumerates the specific *powers* of the federal government. However agenda motivated SC judges in 1937 seemed to ignore the 9th and 10th amendment to the constitution and extend the meaning of the "general welfare" clause to an extra-constitutional extent. They overrode the limited powers of the federal government. > > As Madison stated, if the general > > > welfare clause meant what the socialist engineers wished it meant, there > > > would have been no need to enumerate the specific powers of the federal > > > government. > > Well to be accurate there was no enumeration of the specific powers in the > original Constitution, it's why Jefferson (who was in France at the time), > Madison, and others fought and supported the Bill of Rights. Because of the > 9th and 10th such moves are inherently doomed to failure. Excuse me. There was no enumeration of the powers of the federal government in the original constitution? How exactly do you create a constitution without a mention of the various powers that branches of government are going to have? Not to mention that the arguments with respect to a bill of rights was not that the original constitution bestowed unlimited powers, but that since the constitution only bestowed limited powers that there was no need for a bill of rights. Jefferson was concerned that with no BOR people would not have a guidebook to know when the state was overstepping its mandated powers. > > In fact, it would have been as if the founding fathers had > > > said: > > > > > > "The federal government has unlimited power to do whatever it > > > feels necessary." > > > > > > "The powers of the federal government are as follows" > > > > > > (1) > > > (2) > > > (3) etc > > > > > > Which would be ridiculous on its face. > > This entire section is ridiculous. To say on one hand the powers are > unlimited and then to proceed to list them weakens the argument, this was > also the reason for the 10th. It prevents such extrapolations as this. > I'm sorry it was so unclear to you. Let me reiterate. The 1937 Supreme Court stated that the general welfare clause was a grant of unlimited federal powers to impose "general welfare". You let me know what "general welfare" would limit them to. I was pointing out, as Madison stated, that to read the constitution this way would be to read it as if the constitution had just granted the federal government unlimited powers and then proceeded to enumerate the specific powers. As I pointed out and as appears above "this would be ridiculous on its face". You simply restated that and then proceeded to argue with me. > > > The reality of the situation is that Roosevelt kept trying to stack the > > > Supreme Court. > > Wow, I didn't realize Roosevelt was even alive to participate in the > original Constitutional debates. > Since this was a dicussion of the nails in the coffin of the Republic and since that covers about 150 years it is necessary to cover that time span. > I'm going to stop here since we are obviously off on one of your pet peeves > that isn't related to the discussion at hand. To jump 150 years in one fell > swoop is pretty extraordinary. The reality is, as Jefferson himself said, > that the laws of one generation aren't the laws of another. Yes, the destruction of the constitution is a pet peeve of mine as it is for many people on the list. The reason I even brought it up is that you seemed to be misinformed on the extent of the powers of the federal government granted by the constitution. The whole "social contract" theory is bunk. The reality is that the laws of the previous generations certainly are the laws of succeeding generations. The entire body of English Common Law is based on this concept. The constitution is amendable, that is what Jefferson meant. By all means amend it if you are able, but don't pretend under color of law that the constitution means something other than what it says. Here is the point of this whole dicussion: (1) The constitution chains down the federal government in a prison of specific limited powers. (2) The general welfare clause is not an escape clause from that prison. (3) The general welfare clause is not a justification for transfer payments or other systems of theft. (4)The dismantling of the republic began with the civil war, was accelerated by the formation of the Federal Reserve and new taxation systems and eventually finalized by Roosevelt's stacking of the supreme court when Social (in)Security was challenged in 1937. The subsequent reading by the Supreme that the "general welfare" clause was a delegation of unlimited federal powers essentially destroyed the notion of limited federal power and began the vast bureaucratic machine that we know and love today. jim "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." -- Thos. Jefferson ". . . we are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." - Ayn Rand , The Nature of Government "In questions of power, then, let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson "A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned." --Thomas Jefferson "No man can take another's property from him without his consent. This is the law of nature; and a violation of it is the same thing, whether it be done by one man who is called a king, or by five hundred of another denomination..." --Samuel Adams From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 12 11:35:45 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:35:45 +0800 Subject: acceptable user policies Message-ID: <199811121838.TAA24992@replay.com> Yeah, let me give you the first rule of acceptable user policies. Users shall not spam a maillist multiple times with the same damn request, because a) their question is a lot less likely to be answered by annoyed listmembers, and b) said annoyed listmembers will probably end up mailing the user's ISP and complaining, resulting in disciplinary action against said abusive user. Before you start formulating an acceptable user policy, why don't you go spend some time in news.announce.newusers and learn some netiquette. At 03:11 PM 11/11/98 +0000, Duncan Licence wrote: >hey there, > > I am having to formulate an acceptable user policy for the users. Does >anybody know of any online references, or examples of such policies. >This would have to include specifications like email use, internet >access, games over the LAN - anything that you can get your head around >pertaining to such. This of course would have to weigh up between the >rights of the users and protection of the network and PCs > > > Your help would be greatly appreciated > Duncan From scoops at quiknet.com Thu Nov 12 11:43:34 1998 From: scoops at quiknet.com (scoops) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:43:34 +0800 Subject: GOST Message-ID: <199811112052.MAA06750@toad.com> Jetico a Finnish company (I believe) offers a number of encryption algorithms in its BestCrypt package, among which is GOST which it reports having a 256 key (it also sports Blowfish and DES as I recall). I also remember a few weeks ago reports in the press and on the List of a porn ring broken up and some agent involved saying that the some porn was encrypted in an old KGB program which sounded much like GOST. The implication is that it's transparent to the feds. However I have no idea about various levels at which it might be implimented. I'm sure the real experts on the List will fill you in. From mxm at candseek.com Thu Nov 12 11:49:06 1998 From: mxm at candseek.com (mxm at candseek.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:49:06 +0800 Subject: JOBOP Software Engineer Message-ID: <199811121859.KAA10445@toad.com> Since your address was listed on a software engineering oriented site, I was hoping you could help me out. I am currently looking for individuals with a strong background in C++ development on a Windows NT platform. I represent a leader in software development for the pharmaceutical, cosmetic, and food industries specializing in customized Manufacturing Execution Systems. For this exciting, growth opportunity, I am looking for an individual to play a key role in gathering requirements from clients and relaying that information to an internal development team. In addition to acting as a liaison, this individual will also participate in the development of the system. Position can work from Northern Virginia or Central Connecticut and we will assist in relocation expenses. An ideal candidate will have at least 3 years of experience conducting C++ development on an NT platform. Communication skills are also important due to the interaction with both internal and external clients. Prior project management experience is a plus. Salary to $90,000 with a generous benefits package. If you know of anyone that might be interested, please forward this email or contact me directly. Thank You, Megan McCullough Diedre Moire Corporation 510 Horizon Center Robbinsville, NJ 08691 (609) 584-9000ext275 (609) 584-9575 (fax) mxm at candseek.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 12 11:59:41 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:59:41 +0800 Subject: ANNOUNCE: SATURDAY Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting - Stanford University Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981112110802.00bb2470@idiom.com> The November Cypherpunks Meeting will be Saturday 11/14 from 1-5pm at Stanford, at the tables outside Tresidder Union, near the bookstore. The tables are on the west side, which is the inside of the U-shape. Coffee and food are available in the building. If the weather is uncooperative, we will also be inside the building. Lucky Green will be talking about his latest work. Bagels and Bagel Parephrenalia will be provided. Directions to Stanford Tresidder Hall Stanford is between El Camino Real and Junipero Serra Blvd, which are between 101 and 280. The Tresidder Parking Lot is on Mayfield Ave, off Campus Drive East. http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/search_map.html?keyword=&ACADEMIC=Tresidder+Union http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?234,312 The upside-down map of Stanford&Vicinity is at http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/vicinity.html Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From schear at lvcm.com Thu Nov 12 12:05:46 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 04:05:46 +0800 Subject: Cylink Sued for Stock Fraud In-Reply-To: <199811111641.LAA06325@camel14.mindspring.com> Message-ID: >Business Wire reported yesterday that Cylink has been >sued in US District Court of New Jersey for securities >fraud through a class action. It alleges misrepresentation >and false financial statements. I heard, from a former senior employee, a week or so ago that things were not well there, but had no idea it was this bad (ir I would have shorted the stock, oh well). --Steve From billp at nmol.com Thu Nov 12 12:23:39 1998 From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 04:23:39 +0800 Subject: Crypto fallout Message-ID: <364A01A7.7729@nmol.com> Wednesday 11/11/98 2:26 PM John Young J Orlin Grabbe Emile Zola I visited Jim Omura president of Cylink several times. And bought 6, I recall, CY 1024 public key arithmetic chips for Sandia. At an outrageous price. Omura gave my paper on RSA encryption, posted at jya.com, to Jon Graff. My feeling is that when those who own crypto devices manufactured by Cylink, RSA, Crypto Ag, ... finally realize that PROBABLY their devices have been spiked to transmit the key with the ciphertext there will be a reversal of fortune at these companies. Like the current Cylink problem. http://www.jya.com/cylink-suit.htm The WORD is getting out. Thanks to you guys. And those who read Black and White will realize how to fix their crypto problems TOO. bill Title: Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms Jump to Forum Click Image to Jump to Next Article Go to Text Only Print Version Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms by William H. Payne This article requires special formatting. Please Click Here to Read Send This Article to a Friend: � Your Name: � Email Address of your Friend: � Your Email address: � � � � � Back to Home Page Quick Menu Visit the Button Shop Interactive Forum Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms E-mail the Editor � From palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com Thu Nov 12 12:39:22 1998 From: palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com (palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 04:39:22 +0800 Subject: Enter Symbol's Hacker Contest at the Palm Computing Platform Developer Conference!! Message-ID: <199811122006.MAA11024@toad.com> Symbol announces the first annual Symbol SPT 100 Developer Contest! You could win a Toshiba Tecra 780 DVD 266 MHz Pentium II Notebook by developing the Best SPT 100 Application. Other cool prizes will also be awarded. Everyone who participates will receive a t-shirt. You must be a registered attendee of the Palm Computing Platform Developer Content to participate. Winners will be announced at the Conference, December 1-4. For more details on the contest, and to register for the conference, point your browser to http://www.palmdevcon.com. From sorens at workmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:05:32 1998 From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:05:32 +0800 Subject: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <364B7672.8B6295A3@workmail.com> Jim Burnes - Denver wrote: On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Soren wrote: > There is a real live example of this kind of transition.� New Zealand. > much interesting info deleted What kind of constitution and bill of rights does New Zealand have? Check� this out. � Do I have the right of gun ownership to protect myself or stop tyrannical takeover? That's very funny.� The US, the country that allows most gun ownership (in the 1st world), is the most in need of that right to defend against both illegal and legal criminals. So much for the value of the 2nd amendment. To answer your question though, yes you have the right to buy a gun, just as you have the right to buy a car (a far more lethal instrument in general). You are held to account for what you do with it however (irrespective of whether its a gun or car).� If you kill someone, then you are generally arrested and tried for either murder or manslaughter. Manslaughter is the usual charge if you shoot someone who was threatening to kill you. It all depends on how successful they were in the attempt. Several cases of pissed off people shooting neighbours who were merely harassing them, and getting acquitted of any charges, exist.� Something like 10 murders a year and climbing (fueled by the gangsta rap lovers amongst the maori, mostly. Thank you USA!!). When most violent crime is of the form of being beaten up in a bar, or surprizing a burglar and getting threatened with a club or knife, responding with lethal force is considered not to be very sporting. Hand guns are rare, but there are hand gun clubs.� Seems a lot like a waste of energy to me, preparing for an event that is very unlikely to occur in your lifetime.� Most gun owners are hunters, shooting pig, deer, possums, elk .... Permits are not required. Bow hunting is also quite popular. New Zealand is a parliamentary democracy in the english tradition, with only one house. Recently, MMP (similar to Germany's) system of representation, was passed by referendum. This means that any candidate and/or party that gets 5% of a popular vote, gets a seat in the parliament. The more 5%s you get, the more seats.� Each citizen gets 2 votes.� One for a candidate, and one for a party.� There are currently 6(ish) major political parties.� Under MMP, proportional representation means that the the elected candidates have to form a coalition government. I.e. they all get together and make/break friendships until a clear winner/majority is declared (a very public process). If a clear winner cannot be found, another election is held until something gells. Once that happens, the majority coalition designates a 'prime' minister and a cabinet of ministers, to call the shots.� This is very unlike a presidential executive, in that these ministers are, in effect, hired by the coalition government and not directly elected to office.� Prime ministers do not have to get impeached to remove them from office.� If the majority coalition gets P.O'ed with any minister's track record, he gets fired.� If the population gets P.O'ed with the winning coalition, the coalitions will change to form a new government and new cabinet, to suit the mood(swing) of the populace. This is a very adversarial system for a government to operate under.� There are virtually no bi(multi-)partisan activities (the last was the economic revolution in 1986).� Generally, the opposition is always angling to destabilize the current majority coalition, with lots of rhetoric flying in the press. Consequently, the majority coalition has to keep on their toes and please the population.� Sometimes this leads to some skullduggery and dishonest activities.� The population (and press) have exactly zero tolerance for crooked politicians.� Typically, a Member of Parliament who gets out of line, is out of office within the month, often the week. Ergo, no real need for guns when you have a government that can be dissolved at any time by either a new majority being formed, or the population calling for an election.� Unpopular laws are generally ignored, or become the cause for a new election. This happens on a regular basis. I always had a sneaking suspicion that basing the US republic on the roman model, was not such a good idea.� Look what happened to them.� (Hail Clinton!, long live the emperor! Only until the present emergency lasts, honest! Those huns (drug dealers) and vandals (terrorists) have to be defeated first). Its hard to compare, how NZ's system works in practise, with the self-aggrandizing and self-important poll-doll system in the US (bread and circuses).� Mostly politicians in NZ are the guys who live next door, and who you go fishing with.� They all have a distaste for overinflated egos.� This is deeply ingrained in the national psyche, often to a fault (tall poppy syndrome).� It is a nation of fiercely rugged individualism (even at its collectivist height in the 1970s).� You are still considered to be a wuss if you didn't build your own home, or don't fix your own car or computer (or write your own crypto?), or have your own business, although this is changing under the onslaught of US cultural imperialism and hamburger diplomacy. As it's an island nation, 1 in 5 people has a boat, and generally use it to go fishing.� Again, no permits necessary. A lot of people also build their own boats, although this is changing ...� I suppose the closest comparison in the US, would be to think of it as a cross between Alaska and Hawaii. Hope that answers your questions.� You should look around the NZ web sites for more detail, or better yet, take a month or two and go and check it out.� Christmas is fast approaching, which is the start of summer and the holiday season, all rolled into one. � From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 16:54:42 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:54:42 +0800 Subject: IP: WiredNews: Virus Thrives on HTML Message-ID: <199811130028.QAA17302@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: WiredNews: Virus Thrives on HTML Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:46:31 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Wired News http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16206.html Virus Thrives on HTML by Chris Oakes 5:53 p.m.11.Nov.98.PST An old computer invader has found a new place to thrive. A virus-monitoring group this week posted a computer virus -- called "html.internal" -- that is the first to replicate itself through hypertext markup language, or HTML, the code that defines the common Web page. "Looks like the virus crowd has finally discovered the Internet," said Richard Smith of Phar Lap Software. "HTML pages are extremely mobile.... They're intended to be given out." Other observers point out the demonstration virus requires specific Windows scripting software to carry out its task. They maintain that the virus, therefore, exposes the vulnerability of the secondary software, VisualBasic Script, not plain vanilla Web pages. "It draws attention to the power that's available to the VBScript programmer," said Jimmy Kuo, director of antivirus research at Network Associates. A computer virus typically spreads through shared files, such as word processing documents or email attachments. It most often consists of a program or piece of code that runs invisibly on any computer it manages to infect. Like any virus, it replicates itself. That replication can be threatening in itself if the virus is large, since it will quickly fill a computer's memory and cause a crash. Viruses once depended mainly on floppy disks for their travels, but networks have introduced an easier path. The HTML virus, created by the Virus Information Center and released on Tuesday, was built as a demo and does not present a large security risk in and of itself. It works through Internet Explorer 4.0 and relies on the scripting feature, VBScript, built into the latest Microsoft PC operating system, Windows 98. If security warnings are ignored, the virus will load via a Web page and infect other Web pages on the host computer. Protections already built into Internet Explorer 4.0 would warn users if they encountered the virus, said a Microsoft spokeswoman. Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. All rights reserved. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From billstewart at att.com Thu Nov 12 16:56:44 1998 From: billstewart at att.com (Stewart, William C (Bill), BNSVC) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:56:44 +0800 Subject: FW: Network Associates rejoins Key Recovery Alliance Message-ID: <25683280FF49D2119B480000C0AD590058DFF4@mo3980po13.ems.att.com> Forwarded via Dave Farber's list: -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen Ellis [mailto:ellis at epic.org] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 12:25 PM To: cryptography at c2.net Subject: Network Associates rejoins Key Recovery Alliance As seen on Slashdot.. http://www.slashdot.org Posted by blizzard on Thursday November 12, @09:41AM from the gimme-your-data dept. Andrew Hagen writes "Network Associates, formerly McAfee, developer of PGP, has quietly rejoined the Key Recovery Alliance. Despite withdrawing from the group last December amid pointed concerns over the continued trustworthiness of PGP, NAI apparently rejoined the Key Recovery Alliance (KRA) three months later with their February 1998 acquisition of Trusted Information Systems, a founding member of the KRA. The KRA's major stated goal is creation of "a global infrastructure that supports recovery of encrypted information." NAI has sent me e-mail stating that they might or might not remain in the KRA, that "PGP products will not be affected," and that they have "no interest in enabling key escrow for government access." Network Associates is presently listed on the KRA membership roster." Kathleen Ellis Admin. Dir., Electronic Privacy Information Center Voice Mail: (202)298-0833 http://www.epic.org Keep up with the latest encryption news and events: http://www.crypto.org PGP 5.0 Key ID 9bf725b4 65FF B997 62B8 C396 A527 2D6A 4901 F701 9BF7 25B4 _____________________________________________________________________ David Farber The Alfred Fitler Moore Professor of Telecommunication Systems University of Pennsylvania Home Page: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~farber From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 17:00:15 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:00:15 +0800 Subject: IP: World's biggest hard drive Message-ID: <199811130028.QAA17275@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: World's biggest hard drive Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:15:59 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com WORLD'S BIGGEST DISK DRIVE To mark the centenary of magnetic recording, IBM today unveiled the largest (25gb) hard drive yet produced for PCs. It's shipping limited numbers to PC makers for use in machines that will be ready for Christmas. IBM introduced the first disk drive, back in 1956. It had a capacity of 5mb and was the size of two large refrigerators. The new 25gb drive comes on the 100th anniversary of the Telegraphone, a primitive answering machine. See http://www.ibm.com/News/1998/11/11.phtml From: Alan Farrelly, News Interactive. Australia **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 17:03:22 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:03:22 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Point-Man on 'Y2K' is Low-Balling Magnitude of the Impending Crisis Message-ID: <199811130028.QAA17313@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Clinton Point-Man on 'Y2K' is Low-Balling Magnitude of the Impending Crisis Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:12:41 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Center for Security Policy http://www.security-policy.org/papers/1998/98-C181.html Publications of the Casey Institute of the Center for Security Policy No. 98-C 181 PERSPECTIVE 5 November 1998 Whistling Past the Graveyard: Clinton Point-Man on 'Y2K' is Low-Balling Magnitude of the Impending Crisis (Washington, D.C.): Today's Washington Post features an article about a few of the problems besetting the U.S. government as it grapples, belatedly, with the Year 2000 (or Y2K) "bug." In a perfect (if unintended) metaphor for the trouble on this front now confronting the Clinton Administration -- and, thanks in no small measure to its absence of "leadership" on the issue, the Nation -- the Post headline reads "Y2K Problem Poses Staffing Challenges for Agencies." Yet, the caption on an accompanying photograph quotes John Koskinen, the President's "czar" for the Millennium bug, as saying: "Y2K staffing 'has not turned out to be a major issue at this point, but we are continuing to monitor it.'" Shorthanded Unfortunately, the article proceeds to detail myriad examples that suggest ways in which personnel problems are seriously interfering with the government's Y2K remediation program. For example, the Post reports: "In the scramble to fix computers for the Year 2000, federal agencies have regularly complained that their technology experts were being lured away by better-paying jobs and that qualified contractors were difficult to find." "Of the 24 large agencies required to file quarterly or monthly Y2K progress reports, 13 expressed worries about their computer staffing or staff availability, according to a new General Accounting Office report." "[According to the GAO] four agencies - the departments of Agriculture, Justice and State and the Patent and Trademark Office - [are] facing [acute] Year 2000 staff woes: project delays because of high turnover among contractor staff and losses of skilled information technology employees through retirements and increased recruitment by private-sector companies." A 'Major Issue', Indeed Mr. Koskinen's reassurances notwithstanding, the anecdotal evidence of problems of ensuring compliance of the federal agencies is of great concern for several reasons: The government has historically had a much more difficult time than the private sector hiring and retaining qualified workers in a competitive job market. More often than not, the workers the government does retain have skill sets deemed unimpressive (read, unemployable) by the private sector. Given the complexity of undertaking a comprehensive assessment of the extent of the Y2K-associated staffing problems, anecdotal evidence is all there is to go on in calibrating the magnitude of such problems. It is a well known fact that over 80% of all large high technology projects are completed behind schedule. That the Clinton/Gore Administration continues to assert that the job -- arguably, the largest high technology project ever undertaken with an altogether inflexible deadline -- will be done on-time defies historical experience, to say nothing of common sense. Panic Prevention? The truth of the matter is that, even if the federal government were experiencing no personnel problems in preparing for the Y2K "bug," the Clinton Administration would still be dangerously "behind the power curve." After all, far and away the toughest part of insuring federal agency compliance with Y2K requirements will be the testing, re-remediation and retesting phases -- work that has scarcely even begun in most agencies. In fact, what seems to be going on here is less crisis management than panic management. Unfortunately, Czar Koskinen's wishful thinking about the staffing problem is not an isolated incident. In public speeches, media interviews and through other vehicles, he has consistently understated the magnitude of the problem while substantially overstating the government's preparedness for dealing with it.(1) Koskinen has plenty of company in the Clinton Administration, however. Indeed, even on the one occasion last July, when (after months of refusing to issue public warnings about the Y2K crisis) President Clinton and Vice President Gore finally used the "bully pulpit" to raise an alarm about this impending danger, they failed accurately to describe the severity of the problem. They also refused to take any responsibility for the significant contribution their lack of leadership to date has made to the Nation's Y2K unpreparedness -- and, therefore, to the likely intensity of the coming crisis.(2) The Bottom Line An insert next to the aforementioned Washington Post article on Y2K staffing issues reports the Federal Reserve plans to release some $30-50 billion in additional reserves late in 1999. The reason: to ensure banks will have sufficient money on hand to satisfy depositors who want to hold their savings in cash on the 1st of January 2000. As of April of this year, there was $3.6 trillion on deposit in U.S. banks. Those banks hold only some $49 billion in cash reserves. Thus, even with the additional funds available for withdrawal, banks will have at most only $2.70 for every $100 on deposit. The Clinton-Gore Administration is sorely mistaken if it believes a potentially cataclysmic socio-economic crisis will be avoided if it persists in misleading the American people. The only hope of preventing such a panic-driven outcome is for the administration to provide steady, honest leadership -- addressing candidly the unknown and greatly increasing the priority given by both the private and public sector to accelerating Y2K remediation and damage limitation efforts. - 30 - 1. See the Center's Decision Brief entitled At Last, Clinton-Gore Publicly Address Year 2000 Bug -- But Continue to Lowball Problem, Duck Responsibility For It (No. 98-C 132, 15 July 1998) and the Casey Institute's Perspective entitled New Theory For Clinton-Gore Silence on Y2K Emerges As N.P.R., Gingrich Offer Contrasting Views Of The Danger (No. 98-D 106, 12 June 1998). 2. See the Center's Decision Brief entitled At Last, Clinton-Gore Publicly Address Year 2000 Bug -- But Continue to Lowball Problem, Duck Responsibility For It (No. 98-C 132, 15 July 1998). NOTE: The Center's publications are intended to invigorate and enrich the debate on foreign policy and defense issues. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of all members of the Center's Board of Advisors. � 1988-1998, Center for Security Policy ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 17:03:58 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:03:58 +0800 Subject: IP: [FP] Scanner picks out criminals Message-ID: <199811130027.QAA17253@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ScanThisNews" Subject: IP: [FP] Scanner picks out criminals Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:33:38 -0600 To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com SCAN THIS NEWS 11/11/98 Some people will argue -- after reading the following article -- that systems designed to electronically "recognize" a face in a crowd will never be reliable. They will contend: such systems will never be 100% accurate. Unfortunately, "accuracy" is a very subjective term, and, if the administrators of these systems,(i.e. the ones who can forcibly apprehend the "identified" subjects), deem their system accurate, then the burden of "proving innocence" suddenly becomes that of the accused. At that moment, it no longer matters whether the system was or was not "accurate" -- you're under investigation. -----Original Message----- From: Y2kplanner at aol.com [mailto:Y2kplanner at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 3:09 PM -------------------------- >From the 11/1/98 Sunday London Times www.sunday-times.co.uk - you must register at the site and then search by date. -------------------------- Scanner picks out criminals TRIALS of a computer system that can recognise criminals and terrorists begin this week. The equipment is to be hidden in an unnamed British airport to see if it can pick out criminals even if they have grown a beard or are wearing glasses to hide their identity. The system is the first that can produce three-dimensional scans of a face instantly and then search a database of suspects for a match. It has been devised by Cambridge Neurodynamics, which already produces software that analyses fingerprints and then searches a database for a match. Police in South Yorkshire use its software. Cambridge Neurodynamics says its facial-recognition project will enable security officers at Britain's ports and airports to concentrate on people the computer indicates bear a good likeness to known criminals and terrorists. The alternative is to rely on trained officers to remember faces of people on the wanted list. George Harpur, a Cambridge Neurodynamics systems consultant working on the project, says a computer will be able to store thousands of pictures of wanted people. "It should be like having an extra security officer with the most incredible memory," he says. "We're not intending to replace immigration officers but rather give them a tool that can point them towards the people they are mostly likely to be interested in." The system works by taking pictures of a person as he approaches a video camera. The resulting handful of frames give several two-dimensional pictures. To add depth to the face, two low-power lasers scan its contours from either side. A computer combines the contour information with the images it has of the front of the face. It can then build a virtual model of each traveller's face, which is checked against the database of wanted people. "The airport involved in the trial is particularly interested in the possibility of using the technology to track people who bring in groups of illegal immigrants," says Harpur. "The computer could be alerted to their presence and take a 3D scan of their faces when they pass through passport control. Then the system could track them every time they enter the country and build up evidence against them." The system can also be used to store 3D Photofits of terrorists. Again, it is most likely to be used to take a 3D scan of suspects when they pass through its lasers for the first time. The scan would be stored and the computer would log the suspect's movements. Cambridge Neurodynamics says it can build 3D Photofits from ordinary photographs or video stills but says the system is far more accurate if the suspects are photographed by the system. The team believes 3D scans are necessary because 2D technology can be fooled. It generally measures the distance between facial features but these can change with the angle of the head to the camera. The new computer system can be fooled only if a suspect has surgery to change the shape of his face. Criminals who realise they are about to be scanned and look away or pull a funny face will not trick the computer. It is geared towards seeking similarities around the eyes, which humans use to pick out one another and that do not change with expression and age as much as the rest of the face. The airport trial will last six weeks. If the equipment works, the company will load the software on a powerful workstation computer, rather than a PC, so searches can be speeded up. Cambridge Neurodynamics also plans to approach banks to set up a trial in which the computer would allow only designated staff into security-sensitive areas. Eventually, the technology could be used to verify a customer's identity before he is given money. ++++++++++++++ Nancy Martin y2kplanner at aol.com ======================================================================= Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. ======================================================================= Reply to: ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 17:11:44 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:11:44 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.33: Patent May Threaten E-Privacy Message-ID: <199811130027.QAA17264@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "Ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.33: Patent May Threaten E-Privacy Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:08:59 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.33: Patent May Threaten E-Privacy News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Thursday November 12, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: WIRED news, November 11, 1998 http://www.wired.com Patent May Threaten E-Privacy http://www.wired.com/news/print_version/technology/story/16180.html?wnpg=al l by Chris Oakes, chriso at wired.com The future of a key Web standard that would give consumers control over their online privacy hangs in the balance after news emerged that a entrepreneur will likely be awarded a set of patents on the technology. The technology, the Platform for Privacy Preferences (P3P) is critical to the Internet industry's current effort to show the US government that it can look after the interests of consumers. The specification was to be used in the next versions of America Online, Netscape Communicator, Microsoft Internet Explorer, and many other software products and Web sites. "If somebody owns [P3P], they can prevent other people from using it," said Deirdre Mulligan, staff counsel for the Center for Democracy and Technology. "We put all this work into something that works, then who knows if it's going to get out there." At the core of the issue is one man, Drummond Reed, CEO of Intermind. Reed said that the US Patent and Trademark Office is expected to issue his company a patent on the idea of P3P. Intermind [ http://www.intermind.com/ ] was, until July, a member of the standards group that is collectively developing P3P. He resigned when word spread among the members that he would likely be awarded patents on technologies affecting a broad category of "automated information exchange using software objects." That sounds very much like P3P. The standard is meant to provide a way for consumers and the Web sites they visit to automatically negotiate what can and can't be done with any personal data collected by a site. The technology would reside within both Web browsers and Web sites. On a document [ http://www.intermind.com/W3CMembers/licensing_summary.htm ] on the Intermind Web site, Reed said that his company would request a minimum royalty of US$50,000 per year to a maximum of $2.5 million from companies implementing P3P, plus 1 percent of all revenues directly associated with the technology. Both Microsoft and Netscape declined to comment for this story. "P3P is the nuclear weapon of privacy," said Matt Markus, chief architect and cofounder of Privacy Bank, a company developing an automatic registration service that safeguards a user's privacy. Privacy Bank shifted its company strategy to lessen its dependence on P3P. Markus said he expects the patent will be revoked. "[The patent] is going to hurt young companies who want to help develop the solution," Markus said. "It is the snake in the grass, a complete surprise, it would really shoot the morale at my company if I was depending on [P3P]," he said. Reed acknowledges that some working group members want "to just crucify us" -- but he says his company has been up-front from the beginning that it has held intellectual property rights pertaining to P3P and other Web standards relating to "push" technology. "We have been in communication with the [Consortium] and working group members pretty much from the start," Reed said. "We've been in constant communication with W3C management and key member companies involved in this area." P3P is not yet a final standard, but progress in the World Wide Web Consortium working group has slowed since news of the pending patent seeped out in July, according to Steve Lucas, chief information officer for an Excite division that has been developing P3P-based software. "There are ways of working around P3P," he said. These include custom-made variations on the protocol that circumvent elements covered by the patent, and shifting work toward an older protocol known as the Open Profiling Standard. Lucas said companies are going ahead with work on P3P. But they are simultaneously making contingency plans should the patent have a stifling effect. If Drummond's pending patents stand, the thousands of companies doing business on the Internet could face new laws designed to protect the interests of consumers. The Federal Trade Commission, which would recommend such laws, has given the industry until the end of this year to demonstrate that it can "self-regulate," and P3P is key to that plan. "Some combination of the [P3P and Open Profiling Standard] technologies may be a more transparent way to protect consumers privacy," David Medine, an associate director at the Commission told Wired News earlier this year. Daniel Weitzner, who oversees the development of P3P at the World Wide Web Consortium, insists P3P development is still on track, but echoed the same concerns. "If anyone succeeds in extracting big licensing fees for P3P implementations, that would hamper the availability of the technology," he conceded. "Really the question turns on what happens with that patent." But working on ways to perform privacy negotiations without a standard presents a big obstacle to the industry. "Not having a standard everybody can agree on does create some interoperability problems," Lucas said. "This is a collaborative process about trying to develop socially useful protocols and now we have somebody walking away and saying they own it," added working group member Mulligan of the Center for Democracy and Technology. Weitzner said the issue now is not who said what when but what to do once the patents are issued. He declined to comment on the possibility of mistakes made in the past by W3C management. "The issue is whether or not the patent is valid, not who told what to whom or when," Weitzner said. "The concern I hear is about the attack on openness, not the timing." That issue -- how a patent might affect a Web standard -- is a new one for the W3C. "Our members have not had to face this issue because no one has had to try to stand in the way of openness in a way that Intermind appears to be doing...." The question now is "whether or not they're going to be able to hold up a standard that has a potentially significant social impact." James Glave contributed to this report. Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From walt86 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 13 09:18:14 1998 From: walt86 at hotmail.com (walt86 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:18:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: ''FOR YOUR EYE'S ONLY" Message-ID: <9811131313.AA01924@vibora.ica.luz.ve> Do you know who you're sleeping with? Do you know what your background report says? Who's Caring For Your Children? http://www.nation-search.com To unsubsribe from this list, both remove and undelverable. walt at nation-search.com From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 17:21:11 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:21:11 +0800 Subject: y2k+nukes===???? (drudge) Message-ID: <199811130049.QAA18857@netcom13.netcom.com> ------- Forwarded Message Subject: MILLENNIUM BUG POSES NUCLEAR WEAPONS RISK /Drudge MILLENNIUM BUG POSES NUCLEAR WEAPONS RISK The British American Security Information Council on Thursday is warning all world military powers to de-activate their weapons, to avoid possible "massive and hugely perilous systems failures" brought on by the so-called Millennium bug. The group singles out the United States, bluntly describing the Pentagon's efforts to meet the fast-approaching deadline as "a mess" -- with what it calls "severe and recurring problems across the spectrum." The INDEPENDENT newspaper in London on Thursday outlined the council's warning. "The biggest YK2 danger is not the ultimate nightmare of nuclear weapons either launching or exploding because of faulty computer information. Since it still requires human authorization for a missile or warhead to be launched, this sort of catastrophe is unrealistic. Far more likely, however, is the prospect of a leader, under pressure from hairtrigger response mechanisms, pressing the nuclear button on the basis of inaccurate data." The council would like to see world powers "separate warheads from their delivery vehicles" when the clocks flip 2000-- a move that would dramatically increase the amount of time needed to launch an attack. http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm - - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.inannareturns.com "See God in Every Eye" --Inanna, Goddess of Love V.S. Ferguson author, Inanna Returns and Inanna Hyper-Luminal - - --------------79A25852320ABAABB431D8E6-- - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 17:27:36 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:27:36 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.28: Wiretapping Internet Phone Lines Message-ID: <199811130027.QAA17242@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "Ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.28: Wiretapping Internet Phone Lines Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:13:40 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.28: Wiretapping Internet Phone Lines News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Wednesday November 11, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: WIRED News, November 10, 1998 http://www.wired.com Wiretapping Internet Phone Lines http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16146.html by Declan McCullagh A federal wiretapping law designed to let police snoop on telephone calls could have profound implications for companies that offer Internet phone service. Then again, it might not affect them at all. The 1994 Digital Telephony law, which requires telecommunications companies to wire surveillance technology into their networks, could force Internet telephony firms to configure their systems to be easily wiretapped by law enforcement agencies. A Federal Communications Commission official, who declined to be identified, said the FCC is trying to decide how the law should apply to IP telephony and what types of Internet phone calls should be covered. In a report http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Notices/1998/fcc98282.txt ] released Thursday, the FCC said the law applies to "packet-switching technology" that is "used to provide telecommunications services." "It's a major issue that has to be sorted out," said James Dempsey, senior staff counsel for the Center for Democracy and Technology. "What side of the line does Internet telephony fall on? [Companies] should definitely wake up and pay attention." The wiretapping law, also known as the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, or CALEA, gave the FCC the authority to set standards and timetables. The agency said in September that companies must comply with CALEA by 30 June 2000. The FCC has tentatively ruled that IP telephony using computers is an "information service" and, therefore, not covered by CALEA. But the agency has also said that phone-to-phone IP telephony falls into the category of [ http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Reports/fcc98067.txt ]telecommu nications services. That category includes firms like IDT and Qwest, which allow long-distance customers to phone a local gateway and forward those calls over the Internet to a gateway at the other end. "I think, fundamentally, this is one of the sleeper issues that is going to be affecting the Internet telephony industry into the year 2000 and beyond," said Jeff Pulver, co-founder of the VON Coalition http://www.von.org/ ]. "We all need to be aware of what the legal issues are," Pulver said. "I'm all for what I call 'intelligent regulation.' If we need to comply, then damn it, we should comply. Ignorance is no excuse." "Internet telephony will eventually be included in CALEA," said Alyson Ziegler, director of legislative affairs for the United States Telephone Association [ http://www.usta.org/ ] "It's a matter of time." CALEA's backers say the law was designed to allow authorities to monitor conversations surreptitiously on digital phone lines just as they are now able to tap into analog phone lines. But privacy advocates oppose the measure, arguing that it expands the government's surveillance power. "This is something we've been warning about for years, that the convergence between these technologies will make the distinctions originally contemplated in CALEA ultimately moot," said David Banisar, a lawyer at the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "CALEA will be applied to the Net regardless of what the intent of the law actually was." Even before CALEA became law, indications surfaced that law enforcement would like it to include the Internet. When asked about that possibility during a hearing in August 1994, FBI Director Louis Freeh replied, "It's certainly a possibility -- if, God forbid, someone blows up the World Trade Tower using a PC to PC network." Making an already prickly issue even thornier is the fact that some IP telephony companies use encryption to scramble conversations. NetSpeak, for example, uses RSA encryption [ http://www.netspeak.com/ ]. If two IP phone customers are using public key cryptography to chat in a way that even the IP telephony company can't decode, law enforcement agents are out of luck -- one reason why the FBI has lobbied to ban the manufacture and distribution of encryption devices without key escrow backdoors. Not all companies are complaining about CALEA. Aplio [ http://www.aplio.com/ ] CEO Olivier Zitoun believes his company's products fall into the FCC's definition of computer-to-computer IP telephony. Aplio sells boxes that can be plugged into normal touch-tone phones and used to call an Internet provider, which routes calls over the Net. "We are very different than other phone-to-phone devices or solutions," Zitoun said. "In a way, the discussion of IP-telephony regulation doesn't really apply to us." Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From jim at acm.org Thu Nov 12 17:34:40 1998 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:34:40 +0800 Subject: GOST Message-ID: <364B8752.6A0E8B33@acm.org> Scoops writes: > I also remember a few weeks ago reports in the press and on the List of a > porn ring broken up and some agent involved saying that the some porn was > encrypted in an old KGB program which sounded much like GOST. I saw this report also, and took it to be a standard journalistic garble. It seems more likely to me that the package used by the child porn types was Kremlin, which produces .kgb files. -- Jim Gillogly Trewesday, 23 Blotmath S.R. 1998, 01:09 12.19.5.12.6, 11 Cimi 19 Zac, Third Lord of Night From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 12 17:57:02 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:57:02 +0800 Subject: IP: Push for hearings on Echelon - Global spy system needs scrutiny, says rights group Message-ID: <199811130028.QAA17291@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Push for hearings on Echelon - Global spy system needs scrutiny, says rights group Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:29:44 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: WorldNetDaily http://www.WorldNetDaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981112_xex_push_hearing.shtml Push for hearings on Echelon Global spy system needs scrutiny, says rights group By Stephan Archer Copyright 1998 WorldNetDaily.com In an effort to create some accountability between the country's citizens and the National Security Agency's top-secret global surveillance system known as Echelon, the Free Congress Foundation is urging that congressional hearings be held concerning the NSA's use of the system. Originally, Echelon was designed to spy on the Communist Bloc during the Cold War. However, since the end of the Cold War, the NSA has used it for other questionable purposes that include spying on the citizens of U.S. allies as well as the citizens of other countries, commercial spying, and even domestic spying. In essence, Echelon works through a series of high-tech spy facilities located primarily in five countries: the United States, Canada, England, New Zealand, and Australia. These countries, which are sworn to secrecy about the project in a secret agreement known as UKUSA, all actively take part in this encroachment of privacy into the lives of the people of the world by collecting virtually all fax transmissions, e-mails, and phone calls. Not even cellular phone calls escape the grasp of the Echelon system. "Obviously, we need to have these capabilities," said Wayne Madsen, who worked in the National COMSEC Assessment Center at the NSA's Fort Meade, Maryland, facility back in the 1980s and is currently a senior fellow at the Electronic Privacy Information Center. As an example of our country's need for the system, Madsen said, "No one can argue about using the system to counter terrorism. Where people will have a problem is where Echelon is used for political and business interests." The Echelon system gets most of its data by collecting all transmissions handled by the Intelsat and Inmarsat satellites, which are responsible for much of the electronic communication that takes place between countries. Earth-bound communication is sucked up and absorbed by other spy satellites that the NSA has launched into space. "It's a huge vacuum cleaner," said Madsen. Once these spy facilities collect the phone calls, e-mails, and faxes, of virtually everyone on earth, the Echelon system sorts them through a kind of filter system known as the Echelon dictionary. This dictionary looks for "flag" words in all of the transmitted communication. While it lets a majority of all collected material pass through its filter, it tags those that may pose a threat and tracks all subsequent communication coming from the source of the original "flagged" message. Concerning Echelon's inherent intrusion on people's privacy, Patrick Poole, the deputy director for the Center of Technology Policy at the Free Congress Foundation, said, "While we understand the need for the intelligence power embodied by Echelon, the indiscriminate use of Echelon presents major threats to liberty not only to U.S. citizens but to citizens around the world." And this threat is real. The foundation's report states that U.S. leaders have, in fact, already abused this awesome technology. For example, the report states the following: "In September 1993, President Clinton asked the CIA to spy on Japanese auto manufacturers that were designing zero-emission cars and to forward that information to the Big Three U.S. car manufacturers: Ford, General Motors and Chrysler." "You can assume that all major U.S. corporations are fed items of interest (via Echelon) from time to time to give them a leg up on international competitors," said Madsen. Although this may be seen as a strategic corporate weapon for American businesses, in reality, it's an example of technology that can get out of hand. For example, former Canadian spy Mike Frost stated in his book, "Spyworld," that in 1981, there was an "accidental" cell phone intercept of the American ambassador to Canada that resulted in the U.S. getting outbid by the Canadians in a grain deal with China. The deal brought in $2.5 billion for the Canadian Wheat Board. With this kind of abuse of Echelon's power, the question as to whether or not the U.S. government has been using this power for political purposes can be easily raised. This question is seemingly answered in the foundation's report. "The discovery of domestic surveillance targeted at American civilians for reasons of 'unpopular' political affiliation -- or for no probable cause at all -- in violation of the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments of the Constitution is regularly impeded by very elaborate and complex legal arguments and privilege claims by the intelligence agencies and the U.S. government," the report says. When asked if the system has been used by the U.S. government to spy on its citizens, Madsen told WorldNetDaily that he was sure it has been. "I don't believe that the NSA or the current Administration would hesitate to use this system on American citizens for their own agendas," he said. Outraged by this flagrant abuse of power illustrated by our country's elected officials, Poole said, "While the U.S. is the prime mover behind the Echelon system, it's shameful that the European Parliament is the body holding the constitutional debate in regards to Echelon today." A September 1998 report for the European Parliament by the Omega Foundation said, "Within Europe, all e-mail, telephone, and fax communications are routinely intercepted by the United States National Security Agency. According to the Omega Foundation report, it is this ability of the NSA that brings major concern to the European Parliament. In an effort to bring the issues surrounding Echelon to the forefront of American politics, the Free Congress Foundation plans to send out a report about Echelon to all of the 500 policy organizations in the U.S. as well as to select members of Congress. These select individuals include members from both the House and Senate intelligence committees as well as House and Senate Constitution subcommittees. Copies of the report will also be sent to the congressional leadership of both parties. Although the foundation is hoping to get some action out of these members of Congress, Poole said that support at the grassroots level of our nation's political structure will be a must if this issue isn't to end up buried by the intelligence committees. "For there to be any account and oversight to the Echelon system, the American people are going to have to contact their elected representatives in order to investigate the abuses that we know have occurred in regards to the Echelon system," Poole said. See Free Congress Foundation's report on Echelon. � 1998 Western Journalism Center ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Thu Nov 12 20:10:16 1998 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:10:16 +0800 Subject: JOBOP Software Engineer In-Reply-To: <199811121859.KAA10445@toad.com> Message-ID: What kind of drugs go with the salary? (Most of the people on this list could use the side benefits.) On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 mxm at candseek.com wrote: > Since your address was listed on a software engineering > oriented site, I was hoping you could help me out. > > I am currently looking for individuals with a strong background > in C++ development on a Windows NT platform. > > I represent a leader in software development for the pharmaceutical, > cosmetic, and food industries specializing in customized > Manufacturing Execution Systems. For this exciting, growth > opportunity, I am looking for an individual to play a key role in > gathering requirements from clients and relaying that information > to an internal development team. In addition to acting as a > liaison, this individual will also participate in the development > of the system. > > Position can work from Northern Virginia or Central Connecticut > and we will assist in relocation expenses. > > An ideal candidate will have at least 3 years of experience conducting > C++ development on an NT platform. Communication skills are > also important due to the interaction with both internal and > external clients. Prior project management experience is a plus. > > Salary to $90,000 with a generous benefits package. > > If you know of anyone that might be interested, please forward > this email or contact me directly. > > Thank You, > > Megan McCullough > > Diedre Moire Corporation > 510 Horizon Center > Robbinsville, NJ 08691 > (609) 584-9000ext275 > (609) 584-9575 (fax) > mxm at candseek.com > > > > > From wwcd at earthlink.net Thu Nov 12 20:12:22 1998 From: wwcd at earthlink.net (wwcd at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:12:22 +0800 Subject: Free websites for Automotive industry Message-ID: FREE � FREE � FREE � FREE � FREE � FREE � FREE One of my favorite four letter words. If you like FREE, and you could use ADVERTISING - - - If you are involved in a business related to the automotive industry - - - We need to talk. 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Chris From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 12 20:24:37 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:24:37 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent Message-ID: <199811130259.VAA11936@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> Ron Rivest received on November 10 "US Patent 5835600: Block encryption algorithm with data-dependent rotations:" http://jya.com/rivest111098.htm (22K) From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 12 20:24:52 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:24:52 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811120647.AAA27853@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 1:47 AM -0500 11/12/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Forwarded message: >> There are also certain types of crimes that are so morally >> reprehensible that to allow them to continue is not possible. > >Absolutely, and each country should have it's right to choose it's own >particular brand of reprehensibility recognized. > >> Or are you willing to go on record as stating that what Stalin did >> to the Jews (or Hitler for that matter) was acceptable, since we shouldn't >> have a say in their laws? > >Well, you have to understand I'm a pantheist. I know it's easy to shrug off >and say "so what" but I can't answer this exactly unless you fundamentaly >understand literal pantheism. But I'll try. > >I believe there is no transcendence. As a result everything is divine >because that's all there is. To disrespect the uniqueness in anything is a That's a fancy way of saying you don't believe in anything. No distinctions, nothing is moral, nothing is immoral. >disservice to self. However, concepts of literal sin to my view simply don't >exist. The killing of a human by a human is not fundamentaly (think of it as >outside of human society, it's close but not close enough) different than a >human killing a rabbit, or crushing a rock, or painting a picture. It's an So stealing is functionally equivalent to buying, rape is equivalent to consent, and murder is just part of life. Then where the FUCK do you get off telling me that my "system" is wrong because it will allegedly promote these things, if you aren't even going to accept that they are wrong? >activity, in and of itself it is nothing more than a cold, cosmic event >mediated by complete and utter indifference. The universe does not act with >anthropocentric motives or mechanations. However, within the concerns of Well, no shit sherlock. Lemme guess, youse is one o' dem Colledge Boi's isnt' you? >human biology, psychology, and society there is a very real distinction. As >a matter of fact there are quite a few. Since they are all a construct of >human existance they deserve some level of respect, the freedom of >expression in speech and press, not necessarily in action. Because of the >fundamental uniqueness of anything, to destroy or change it with willful >intent (I wish I could express this better, all I can say is it isn't what >normal English means by those two words exactly enough) except in >self-defence or survival (eg killing an animal for food) is not moraly >(permissible at the level of individual) or ethicaly (the range of >permissible acts related to an activity, say a doctor or lawyer) >supportable. So it isn't OK. >I am willing to go on record stating that what they did from a national >level should concern no nation that is not directly involved. Nations do not >have the right to impose their will on other nations, period. Nations may of >course dissolve and reform of their own free will and whim. From a personal >level everyone should have run over there in about 1936 and kicked their >stinking ass as volunteers (the fact that it is not in human nature to >participate in mass exhibitions like this voluntarily is another reason that >anarcho-whatevers won't work). From a fundamentaly cosmic perspective what >they did is completely and utterly irrelevant and of no consequence. At the >same time I'm horrified that human beings can do that to other people and >live with themselves. The total lack of empathy I find utterly chilling. >Poppy Z. Brite in carnate. You are one confused puppy. You are saying that it would be wrong for nations to get involved, because it isn't any of their business, but it is ok, and in fact proper for PEOPLE to get involved. What are nations? People. People acting in agregate. If a the people have a right, or a responsibility to act, then they have the right to request that their nation act as their proxy (which after all is what nations are allegdely for according to your theory of government) in resolving their problem. >Let me give you another example, unless the US is attacked directly by Iraq >we have no business threatening, let alone initiating, violence. I disagree. If we find that their country is gassing people, we have a responsibility to intervene. My problem with our actions is that it is not done on the principle of preventing the genocide of a people, but on the principle that we need instability in the Middle East to keep cheap oil for us. >But I'll do what I did the last time we got in a scrap with the rag-head, >whatever I can. To do any less might cost somebody their life through my Whatever you can do to what end. to continue to support a state of affairs that does nothing but lead in a circle? To continue to support the murder of a people (the kurds) and the threat of the release of Biological and Chemical toxins in Isreal (which probably diserves to get the shit kicked out of it a time or two for it's arrogance and it's facist ways, but NBC warfare is rather rude and nasty). >Does that help any better? Life is a contradiction in motion. Crap. There can be no contradictions. One must find and resolve them. >> >Do you want Germany having a say in our laws (for example)? >> They do already, it's called international trade. >Me selling apples to a German doesn't involve their having a say in my law >making unless I'm an idiot in making the laws I operate under. There are >treaties, but the assumption is that they are entered into freely and with >comprehension. If they don't and do well that's their problem. Economics drives laws. >> Also, if I were a Catholic in a death camp because Jesse Helms >> ramed thru legislation blaming the Y2K bug on the Holy C, I'd hope someone >> would intervine. > >Congress can't make laws respecting establishments of religion. Not only >can't they support any, they can't prohibit any, they can't even >constitutionaly decide what a religion is. Per the 10th that is left to the >individual states and their respective representative constitutions. Did you duck, or did I just aim right over your head? >> But you claimed it started in the early 1900's in response to >> deaths and blindness. > >The regulation of the manufacture and sales of alcohol started after the >civil war, late 1800' and early 1900's depending on your geography. It's >impossible to set a single date since the various laws were'not all initiated >at the same time. I believe somebody else is the person who equated >prohibition with regulation. In general the laws were put in place because >either there was a problem with tainted alcohol (this was a real problem in >the very early 1900's because of the use of lead pipes and other amalgams >that don't treat people nicely) or excessive consumption by the youth The use of lead pipes was because we didn't know better until then. Time and education would have solved that problem as well as any law. Most business (especially smaller local type businesses) don't want their customers falling down dead, it tends to decrease business. >The history of alcohol is long and twisted. Kinda like your arguments. >> It prevents the press from manipulating the government because >> there ISN'T ONE, or if there is (in the case of extreme >> libertarian/minarchist) it is so restricted and powerless it can't do >> anything execpt try to gather more power. > >True, but then the news papers (they are not the same as the press - where >that commen misconception is from is beyond my keen) would just pander to Ever seen a newpaper in production? They are run on things called "presses", and for many years (1600's, 1700's and 1800's, until the wide spread adpotion of radio) they were the primary (only) source of news. That is probably where the name "The Press" comes from, and why the first amendment attempts to claim freedom for it. >their extant major supporter, advertisers. How honest do you think that >would make them? Not very. If given the choice between the truth or a fatter >check newspapers (and their reporters) have in general chosen the way of the >greenback. While one can point to isolated incidences of that happening, the most honest accusation one can point at the press is that they tend to report what is happening in a way that will sell newspapers rather than slant stories to avoid pissing off potential advertisers. There are simply too many advertisers to worry about. They might kill the occasional story, but in a competitive market, of the opposition believes that there is a market for the story, it'll get told. >Jefferson said he would never write a line in a newspaper, and didn't. He >thought them vile. He however held the free press (he meant unrestrained >communication between individuals) in high regard (obviously). I'd imagine he held certain types of Newspapers in low regard, probably the 1700's version of Weekly World News. There just wasn't a whole lot else being printed back then. >> Yes, businesses can manipulate the press, and do-gooders can always >> start their own press and fight back. > >Who do they buy the press parts from? The ink and paper? The distribution >channles? Etc. You might be able to start one up but you won't last long in >a monotonicly profit driven free-market. If they rake muck too much they >won't have a rake anymore. These days just set up a web site. Other than that, it's fairly easy technically to start a "press", you just get something you want printed typeset (or do it yourself) and pay a press to print it. That is no excuse. >> Yeah, and there are laws against Drug Dealing which work real well. >There's probably a lesson in there somewhere... Yeah, laws don't work real good. >> I wanna say Karen something or other as one case--Silkwood? >That was one of the ones I was thinking of. >> Point still holds, you speak out, you get in trouble, legal or no. >> Laws don't prevent things from happening, they simply give society the >> moral authority to say "We Warned You, Now Off With His Head" or some such. >They moderate and mediate those actions and in fact do set a limit on what >can occur at the social level. I'll say it again, government isn't for >regulating individual interactions at the daily level. It's simply too fine >grain. It will control trends and behaviours with a good deal of aplomb (if It specificly doesn't do that. For every person that says "I'd try pot if it were legal", there are 10 who smoke it, and 20 more who've tried it. >it's not abused) - and I'm talking specificaly of a republican democracy >like the US has. s/has/had/ >> When was the last time you _didn't_ kill someone just because it is >> illegal? >Every time. I can think of three times. Two accidents hunting and the third >a crazy with a knife. On a personal level I felt my sense of justification >from committing such an act didn't equate to me spending time in jail. >They're still alive, and I didn't do time. Works for me. In all three times >I could have shot them and walked off, I wouldn't have been found and there >were no connections. All three times were completely random events, So the law DIDN'T stop you, you already admit you wouldn't have been caught, and in at least one instance you probably SHOULD have capped the person, for the good of soceity, yet you didn't. Why? Because ingrained in all of us (even Mr. May) is the idea that it is wrong to kill other humans wantonly. At times our baser instincts override this conditioning, and there are a few whom it never takes on, and some people can override it at will, but it's still there. It'll still be there when the laws are dust. >hapinstance. I quit hunting after the second hunting event. I also don't go >for long walks on the other side of the tracks at 2am anymore when I can't >sleep. Some junior high kid tried to rob me. You should have killed him, it was your civic duty. >> It's expected, but illegal? >How can it be illegal if there are no bodies to create them, courts to >ejudicate them, supposedly unbiased police to enforce them. Now if we agree Sorry, lost the context, and I can't get it back at this hour. >> It prevents government abuse, it prevents systemic abuse of power >> and authority. > >Rape is rape, the point is to prevent it. Not just prevent it from your >father. But rape is the functional equivelent of painting a flower right? >> It also makes it easier to get people to resist abuse & to fight >> back, since the abuse isn't built in, nor do the abusers have any sort of >> "authority" to fall back on. >People are more likely to suffer injustice as long as its sufferable. It's a >rare event to incite a large population to violence. It wouldn't take a large population, since there is no societal pressure preventing private retribution. >> Which is different from now HOW? > >At least now there are limits to how ruthless they may be. You don't see No there isn't. >tanks on your street corner, there aren't troops of men running around Yet. >dragging people out of their homes because they're catholic or read 'Catcher >in the Rye' or 'Atlas Shrugged' and shooting them. And people (like us right Yet. >now) get to bitch about it with as near complete impunity as is possible in >a real world. Hell through the amendment process we can concievably bypass >the federal government completely. All that is required is the calling of a >convention, which the federal government have no authority over (especialy >since the right to peaceably assemble is protected and it don't get much more >peaceable than a constitutional convention). Try it. Organize it and see what happens. If it looked at all like you had a chance in hell of actually getting one together, you'd be receiveing photographs of you with a cute little mexican boy in the most *intersting* positions imaginable. >> Isn't Billy Gates one of your poster boys for being ruthless? Isn't >> he so far head of the rest of us that he could be in court for the rest of >> his life and not spend everything? >What makes Bill Gates reprehensible is not what he did with Microsoft, >though the company as a whole should suffer. They certainly made profit >together, they should share the flip side of the coin. >Why I hold Bill Gates in so low esteem is his moral standing. A perfect But in a pantheistic universe, his actions are just as sacred as yours. >example is hurricane Mitch. The World Bank came up with a tad over $100M for >releif. Bill makes that in a few days. Here is a man with the means to >institute huge social, political, and economic change that at his level is >a pittance and he does nothing. He is scum. He made his bed, let him lie in He (allegedly) donates large amounts of money to Gun Control, and well, he has created a LOT of jobs, and maybe some of them donate the money. Putting a gun to his head an forcing him to be charitable is still stealing. >it. He didn't help others when they could have used it at little to no >impact to him, why should they extend a helping hand in return? Because they are better than him? (I don't buy this) >This is another excellent example of why anarcho-whatevers won't work. The >psychology of the truly wealthy is so self-interested and goal-oriented The wealthy give more to charity every year than most people make. I used to work for a woman who thought NOTHING of writing a 10,000 check to certain charities. She wasn't paying ME that much in a year. >instead of principled that they almost become pathological in their lack of >empathy. The claim is that succesful business will be some sort of utopic, >empathetic social force. It won't be, it isn't in human nature. Never claimed it would be utopia, in fact I never claimed it would be better for most people than now, I just claim freer. I believe that to be a better way. >I gotta stop now, I'm sleepy. Yeah. I know that feeling. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From nobody at nowhere.to Thu Nov 12 21:12:58 1998 From: nobody at nowhere.to (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:12:58 +0800 Subject: NotSoBlackNet: terrorist pays by money order Message-ID: <88e9a70643e903c58148f5106afd11bd@anonymous> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/15812.html Do Terrorists Troll the Net? by Niall McKay [...] "We fight for our independence," he said during one June conversation. Harkat-ul-Ansar is on the State Department's list of the 30 most dangerous terrorist organizations in the world. Establishing Ibrahim's true identity is difficult. The most compelling evidence that he was acting on behalf of Harkat-ul-Ansar is a US$1,000 money order that he sent to Chameleon in an attempt to buy stolen military software. [...] Although he used several anonymous Hotmail accounts to send his email, Ibrahim always accessed the Net from an Internet service provider in New Delhi [...] Savec0re said he also emailed the individual an encrypted file of information from the Indian atomic research center, including diagrams of reactors and trajectory calculations, and an analysis of five Indian nuclear tests. "The next day I got a call from the so-called FBI agent but he had an amazingly strong Pakistani accent," [...] From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 13 00:59:59 1998 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:59:59 +0800 Subject: oranges spliced with THC gene Message-ID: <19981113084010.27182.qmail@nym.alias.net> http://www.sfbg.com/wire/20.html oranges with spliced-in gene for THC 20-30 seeds already distributed until Janet got her hands in it From fod at brd.ie Fri Nov 13 04:32:28 1998 From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:32:28 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101638.KAA18839@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <364C1FEC.F312A063@brd.ie> Jim Choate wrote: > At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy. > Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're > willing to fund a bigger gun. Under an "anarcho-whatever" people are left to their own devices. This leaves them free to do anything, including institute governments, pass laws, form unions, inject themselves with battery acid, shoot everyone wearing glasses, and climb towers to pick off passers-by with a high-velocity rifle. What people on both extremes seem to miss is that the world is already, and always has been, an anarchy; the experiment is ongoing, and so far "all of the above" is the outcome. Cheers, Frank O'Dwyer. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 05:22:56 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:22:56 +0800 Subject: Nov. 15 column - felons with guns Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:31:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:15:54 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: vin at dali.lvrj.com Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vinsends at ezlink.com From: Vin_Suprynowicz at lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) Subject: Nov. 15 column - felons with guns Resent-From: vinsends at ezlink.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/590 X-Loop: vinsends at ezlink.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vinsends-request at ezlink.com FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED NOV. 15, 1998 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz On the selective doling out of 'constitutional rights' T.T. writes in, in response to the Nov. 5 column in which I admitted being a one-issue voter, rejecting any politician who won't trust me with a gun: "Thank you, Vin, for raising the issue which has been bothering me for quite a while: when I read through the Bill of Rights, I cannot understand why a convicted felon WHO HAS SERVED HIS OR HER TIME is, under the present selective 2nd Amendment rights-lifting, not automatically and permanently stripped of ALL of his or her rights, and not just the Second, plus voting: "Felon = no free speech, freedom to assemble, or, as you say, freedom to go to the church of choice; no 3rd Amendment protections ... hey, quarter those soldiers at will in the forever-felon's house! ... no 4th Amendment protections, or 5th, or 6th (as you point out) nor 7th or 8th. And of course, the 9th and 10th are moot, since they're long-gone anyway for everyone, felon and misdemeanor and non-convicted alike. "But if the power-geeks were to do this, why, then it would be too blatantly obvious what was really happening, wouldn't it? "Best wishes, and thanks for keeping the faith so eloquently." I responded: # # # Yes. Does a felon, once he has "done his time" and "paid his debt to society," again become a member of "the people" to whom all the rights in the Bill of Rights apply, or not? If NOT, then indeed any government agency should be able to arrest anyone who has EVER been convicted of a felony -- even a 90-year-old guy who tended bar in a speakeasy in 1930 -- hold him without bond and without letting him confront his accusers, in some foreign jurisdiction, torture a confession out of him, convict him without a jury trial, and then subject him to a cruel and unusual execution, all in secret. No problem with the Bill of Rights -- it DOESN'T APPLY. Needless to say, under this evil premise, the government should also be able to deny such a person the right to attend church, the right to publish a newspaper or magazine, the right to own property which cannot be seized on a bureaucrat's whim without compensation, etc. On the other hand, if that is NOT the situation which does or should prevail, then it seems to me any former felon who is no longer on "parole" has a right to vote and bear arms, along with all his other pre-existing rights ... which after all are only ACKNOWLEDGED by the Bill of Rights as having been ordained by the Creator, not actually "granted" therein. This business of creating different classes of citizens, with different degrees of legal "disability," is the basis for virtually ALL the invasions of our privacy -- up to and including the police numbering system on our cars -- so frequently justified as "allowing us to check and make sure you're not an escaping felon." (Note what a police state South Africa became, based on the simple notion that one should have to show one's "racial identity card" to any policeman who asked, to determine whether one had a right to be on a given street at a given hour of the day -- and the sad absurdities it created, as visiting Japanese businessmen were given passports declaring they were "white" so they wouldn't have to suffer the indignities visited on South Africa's native east Indian merchants, who carried second-class INTERNAL passports identifying them as inferior "Asians.") There should be no NEED for me to ever "submit to a background check" to prove I'm "not a felon." Felons should be in prison, or in the graveyard. "Parole" is the French word for "promise." If you can't trust a convict to keep his "promise" not to acquire and carry a gun until his sentence expires, then don't let him out on "parole." It's not (start ital)I(end ital) who should have to suffer inconvenience or indignity because the government wardens can no longer tell the difference between me and all these convicted thugs they're allowing to wander the streets in plain clothes. Start repealing one law a day until you have enough jail cells to keep those guilty of violating our REMAINING laws (you might want to to keep murder, forcible rape, and armed robbery on the books, while tossing out drug use, "money laundering," and failure to pay gun "transfer taxes") in stir for their FULL SENTENCES. And set the rest of us free. Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin at lvrj.com The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it. -- John Hay, 1872 The most difficult struggle of all is the one within ourselves. Let us not get accustomed and adjusted to these conditions. The one who adjusts ceases to discriminate between good and evil. He becomes a slave in body and soul. Whatever may happen to you, remember always: Don't adjust! Revolt against the reality! -- Mordechai Anielewicz, Warsaw, 1943 * * * --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 13 07:01:30 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:01:30 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811131436.IAA32048@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:02:52 +0000 > From: "Frank O'Dwyer" > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > Under an "anarcho-whatever" people are left to their own devices. And *that* is the primary failure of the entire theory. It's strongest point is sufficient to kill it. No, actualy, it's strongest point demands that it be killed. Very weak argument epistomologicaly, with little more to offer than didactic charms. The implication is that individuals are making societal policies with no checks and balances (failure 1). In effect, the only way an individual will be restrained is by some sort of natural community action (never mind that people don't voluntarily act that way, failure 2). There is no clear mechanism to arbitrate disagreements other than the above mechanism pretty much eschewing any sort of standard of behaviour which further fosters non-compliant behaviour (failure 3). There is no clear mechanism that protects property or civil rights since the very arbitration mechanism changes (and by implication the standards of ethics/morality it's held to) on a case by case basis mediated by the whim of chance on the compatibility of any two individuals personal views (failure 4). The arbitrary use of violence is at no point addressed (failure 5). One of the primary arguments for anarcho- based systems is to address corruption and unfair competition. Yet at no point does it sufficiently address the guidelines as to what those are let alone limits on their solutions (failure 6). So what we are left with is a system whereby people mediate their actions based on the compatibility of their personal philosophies. As I've said before, anarcho- based systems make the same phsychological mistake that every system other than a democracy makes; if it works for one person the answer should be acceptable to another. The very fact that the contrary to this is one of the reasons behind anarcho- support doesn't seem to impinge upon the concioussness. Anarchy is contradictory at the axiomatic level. Another way to see it is: Let people do what they want and they'll naturaly conform to what I want. There is this same axiomatic problem with Hayek's economics and social theories. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Fri Nov 13 07:35:52 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:35:52 +0800 Subject: Oranges with marijuana genes == HOAX In-Reply-To: <19981113084010.27182.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <199811131453.IAA02761@manifold.algebra.com> I think that the original news release was likely a hoax. It even said something to the effect that "this may be fiction" in the last paragraph. Too bad no one actually pays attention and reads whole articles. ``The South to the Future World Wide Wire Service is a weekly feed of technology and media news commentary and satire published by the San Francisco Bay Guardian. Quotations attributed to public figures who are satirized are often true, but sometimes invented. Some fictional statements may, in fact, be true. Any other use of real names is accidental and coincidental. Editorial questions may be sent to John Paczkowski. ' igor lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > > > > http://www.sfbg.com/wire/20.html > > oranges with spliced-in gene for THC > > 20-30 seeds already distributed until Janet got her hands in it > - Igor. From leif at imho.net Fri Nov 13 08:06:13 1998 From: leif at imho.net (Leif Ericksen) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:06:13 +0800 Subject: JOBOP Software Engineer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <364C4650.F684BA0E@imho.net> Rabid Wombat wrote: > > What kind of drugs go with the salary? > > (Most of the people on this list > could use the side benefits.) > > On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 mxm at candseek.com wrote: > > > Since your address was listed on a software engineering > > oriented site, I was hoping you could help me out. HUMMMM this is the message to the list... the LOW LOW salary of 90K > > Salary to $90,000 with a generous benefits package. > > > > If you know of anyone that might be interested, please forward > > this email or contact me directly. > > > > Thank You, > > > > Megan McCullough > > > > Diedre Moire Corporation NOW if you read the message that I received from Megan in my personal email box not the list I can get 10K more for the LOW LOW salary of 100,000$ Check it out! Hey megan are you reading this???? Do I have to move or Can I live where I do and telecommute? IF I have to move I want 200,000$ US. > > Since your email address was listed on a related web site page > or database, I thought you might help. I am seeking an individual > within the following conditions: > > I am currently looking for individuals with a strong background > in software engineering particularly with Visual C++. My client > is a start up company which was started in 1989 to help clinicians > treat more patients in less time, while the information they must > consider expands at an alarming. They do this by developing software > products that give clinicians access to the information they need to > really impact care and productivity. The software engineer will work > as a part of a development team to identify and develop new > product directions and to modify existing product lines to meet > the needs of individual clients. For this exciting, growth opportunity, > I am looking for someone that has at least 5 years of software > engineering experience using Visual C++. An ideal candidate > will also have hands on experience with COM, Activex, XML, > and SGML. For the right person, the salary can go up to > $100,000 with a generous benefits package. > > Geographic Location of Position: Falls Church, VA > > If you know anyone that might be interested, please forward > this to them or contact: > > Megan McCullough > Diedre Moire Corporation > Voice: 609-584-9000ext275 > Fax: 609-584-9575 > Email: 915602 at candseek.com > > > > > > > 510 Horizon Center > > Robbinsville, NJ 08691 > > (609) 584-9000ext275 > > (609) 584-9575 (fax) > > mxm at candseek.com > > > > > > > > > > From fod at brd.ie Fri Nov 13 09:11:40 1998 From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:11:40 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811131436.IAA32048@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <364C5F24.E537D505@brd.ie> Jim Choate wrote: > > From: "Frank O'Dwyer" > > Under an "anarcho-whatever" people are left to their own devices. [...] > The implication is that individuals are making societal policies with no > checks and balances (failure 1). You are missing the point completely -- there is no reason to suppose that people, left to their own devices, would do anything other than what people left to their own devices have already done, which is to put in place all the present systems of law and government. The problem for both your point of view and that of the "anarcho-whatevers" is that there is no need to speculate about what an anarchy would look like, we already have one. It's just that it doesn't resemble what either of you thinks an anarchy should be. [...] Cheers, Frank O'Dwyer. From frissell at panix.com Fri Nov 13 09:21:30 1998 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:21:30 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811131436.IAA32048@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811131629.LAA09514@mail1.panix.com> At 08:36 AM 11/13/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >So what we are left with is a system whereby people mediate their actions >based on the compatibility of their personal philosophies. Standard interoperation of different protocols. We do it all the time. >As I've said >before, anarcho- based systems make the same phsychological mistake that >every system other than a democracy makes; if it works for one person the >answer should be acceptable to another. The very fact that the contrary to >this is one of the reasons behind anarcho- support doesn't seem to impinge >upon the concioussness. Anarchy is contradictory at the axiomatic level. > >Another way to see it is: Let people do what they want and they'll naturaly > conform to what I want. Who cares what they do as long as they leave me alone. >There is this same axiomatic problem with Hayek's economics and social >theories. He was not an anarchist. If voluntary interaction doesn't work as a social system then we're all in big trouble because persons (you?) who love to command others will have a hard time doing so as everyone becomes rich, mobile, and technologically powerful. If you have figured out a way to push around rich, mobile, and technologically powerful people you're a smarter man than I am. I'm sure the Feds could use your unique insights. BTW we live in a representative republic not a democracy and the theory was that it was to be a representative republic of strictly limited powers. Our representatives have forgotten. Technology and market institutions are teaching them different. DCF From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 13 10:07:09 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:07:09 +0800 Subject: Info Age Crime Terror and War Message-ID: <199811131719.MAA28612@smtp0.atl.mindspring.net> Senator Kyl has issued a long report, "Crime, Terror & War: National Security and Public Safety in the Information Age," which recounts his Subcommittee's hearings and recommendations on encryption, Y2K, terrorism, info war, domestic preparedness, wiretap, and more: http://jya.com/ctw.htm (97K) It describes a plan to combat threats to critical infrastructure and the US homeland which, if implemented, would criminalize much held dear to a few of this list's subscribers; other lurkers will be overjoyed to read Kyl coming to the rescue of careers and budgets of MIB and their suppliers of technological of political control. He wants DoD to get cracking on domestic protection, move over piddling LEA. Civil liberties, nonsense. Crypto genie out of the bottle, more nonsense. Getting government access to encrypted communications, you bet. Through commercial products, yep. Thanks to FT for forwarding. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 10:19:27 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:19:27 +0800 Subject: dbts: Hettinga's Road Trip to London... Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- After much hemming and hawing about plane and hotel arrangements, the final confirmation from some conference organizers arrived this past Monday morning. And, yesterday, the State Department promised me a passport on my doorstep this coming Tuesday. So, it now looks like I'm going to London on next Saturday's redeye to speak at the Internet Trading for Global Securities Markets conference, Tuesday and Wednesday, November 24th and 25th at the Hilton Olympia. Because of some interesting economics of cheap hotel room-nights and dear airfare, I'll be staying at the Hilton Olympia itself, on Kensington High Street in London, from the morning of Sunday the 22nd to the morning of Thursday the 26th. This conference has been in the works for months, but we weren't really sure everything was going to happen until, as usual, the last possible minute. I bet a whole bunch of people registered right on the deadline, or something, and they decided they had enough interest to pull the trigger. Oh, well, after dodging those kinds of bullets myself getting the FC conferences and this summer's Philodox Symposium off the ground, I should have expected it from someone else in the same shoes. We all have Duncan Goldie-Scott to thank for this trip, of course. For the past few months, I've been writing a series of articles on digital bearer transaction settlement for the Financial Times Virtual Finance Report, which Duncan edits. I started with cash, and then bonds, and then equity. This month I did derivatives. I've got three more left to do, I figure; one on micromoney, the other two on the possible macro-, and micro-, economic inplications of digital bearer settlement, and maybe one more, on possible deployment strategy, if we get that far. Since I started these articles, I have gotten quite a few pieces of fan mail from Duncan's subscribers, and it has been quite fun. It also seems that some of those folks are going to be at this conference. In addition, after all the dust settled, Duncan himself was made chairman of the conference, so I expect he's going to have his hands full when I get there. As if that wasn't enough, Duncan has also arranged for me to talk privately to some traders he knows at an investment/merchant bank whose name you would recognize, and that should be quite interesting. Duncan says that they've been reading my articles, and they've got lots of questions to ask. So, Duncan, thanks so much for all your good efforts evangelizing digital bearer transaction settlement to your friends in the City. I'm positively psyched to unleash the word hoarde in the Old World, fire up the patented Hettinga rant machine on that side of the pond, and all that. God help you all. :-). So, if anybody wants to get ahold of me in London for a beer and a schmooze while I'm there, (especially if you know someone crazy enough to pay my extortionate personal appearance fee for some of my scarce free time ;-)), the Hilton Olympia's address is 380 Kensington High Street, London W14 8NL, and phone number's 0171 603 3333. You can, of course, email me as well, but, since this is my first trip to Europe, I expect that internet connections, power, etc., for my trusty PowerBook 540c will be interesting, if not, um, creative. So, it might be a good idea to contact Duncan , or at lest cc: him on your communications with me regarding this trip, or while I'm actually there, as he's going to be the Official Philodox "Bob-Handler" on this trip. :-). Here's hoping that I meet some of you in London week after next! Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 iQEVAwUBNkxutcUCGwxmWcHhAQEqFQf+Nk+po/iJVHlQpVT3es/uokYkYb7T3nbv NbEyDIEJkT4z5Jsp0omGU36/QFgF7iHAu614ehRAY/lhu7l1/ghrJdFKzQR+3lHU UijWKYe3tyk15oBPhUI2e0G1K52MNSmDl9EL4GQ3hpbBCSOM4UO+4W1q3RYnucGA b3p54QXpYeoRefAhSNiEjRc7Vup+EY1i6vkCONekr4+c9UugQ1sbGuRvCzcivXRk g7o0lktxY1+sXaALEcSgB3sOnG0TJj/HPTpVcsjhw1SFKbxLPKJmytPJ8iR7MEi3 9JMk82Lr6AHTfokAQuLOsEMut8yfsjJ8glg2cxrys+Rbo1qGjHyL+g== =RRO6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From stuffed at stuffed.net Sat Nov 14 02:24:50 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED SAT NOV 14) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:24:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981114081000.12518.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + ZEE ASS + CYBER SEX + FACIAL GLORY + SLUTS 4 ALL + LIBRARY OF EROTICA + ADULT PORN PICS + GIRLS OF WWWONDERFUL + FACIAL BABES + WHITE CHOCOLATE + FREE HARDCORE PORN + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/25839.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/26453.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/20538.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/24064.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/5402.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 13 10:31:43 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:31:43 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.28: Wiretapping Internet Phone Lines Message-ID: <364C7187.6E24@lsil.com> This little phone looks nice with one gotcha: they left out encryption. Did they do this just to sell internationally and avoid the privacy issue altogether? Considering how the product is constructed, adding encryption would not be a major step. Mike *********************************************************************** Not all companies are complaining about CALEA. Aplio [ http://www.aplio.com/ ] CEO Olivier Zitoun believes his company's products fall into the FCC's definition of computer-to-computer IP telephony. Aplio sells boxes that can be plugged into normal touch-tone phones and used to call an Internet provider, which routes calls over the Net. "We are very different than other phone-to-phone devices or solutions," Zitoun said. "In a way, the discussion of IP-telephony regulation doesn't really apply to us." From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 10:48:23 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:48:23 +0800 Subject: Duncan Frissell's "Blob" rides again... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:56:02 -0800 To: rah at shipwright.com From: Somebody Subject: Guns on the net.. oooo guns on Ebay... this guy is such a dickhead. http://www.msnbc.com/news/214304.asp A simple search of offerings listed on the Web site on Nov. 11 and 12 revealed the following: two cases of hypodermic needles, five sets of Kevlar body armor, 33 AK-47 semi-automatic rifles, four lots of “Talon” flesh-shredding ammo, one box of contraband Cuban cigars, 11 lots of brass knuckles, 148 lots of federally banned switchblade knives, six UZI submachine guns, one Mas 49/56 sniper rifle, three night vision rifle scopes, one $3,500 pair of Leopard skin pants, a CDRom containing the text of The Anarchist’s Cookbook as well as instructions for how to build cable signal descramblers, how to obtain Microsoft software for free, and how to get college degrees for free, 27 lots of drug accessories and head-shop paraphernalia, and 1,217 lots of ivory items including a “bag of elephant ivory dust.” (Microsoft is a partner in MSNBC.) --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 13 11:20:20 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 03:20:20 +0800 Subject: Info Age Crime Terror and War In-Reply-To: <199811131719.MAA28612@smtp0.atl.mindspring.net> Message-ID: At 9:09 AM -0800 11/13/98, John Young wrote: >Senator Kyl has issued a long report, "Crime, Terror & >War: National Security and Public Safety in the Information >Age," which recounts his Subcommittee's hearings and >recommendations on encryption, Y2K, terrorism, info war, >domestic preparedness, wiretap, and more: > > http://jya.com/ctw.htm (97K) > >It describes a plan to combat threats to critical infrastructure >and the US homeland which, if implemented, would criminalize >much held dear to a few of this list's subscribers; other lurkers >will be overjoyed to read Kyl coming to the rescue of careers >and budgets of MIB and their suppliers of technological of >political control. > >He wants DoD to get cracking on domestic protection, move over >piddling LEA. Civil liberties, nonsense. Crypto genie out of the bottle, >more nonsense. Getting government access to encrypted >communications, you bet. Through commercial products, yep. I'll address one section, near the end of the report: --begin excerpt-- The "genie premise" is that encryption software is free and widely available (PGP being the most frequently cited example), rendering moot any attempt to impose controls over its transfer, manufacture or use. Yet at the same time, manufacturers and sellers of products with encryption features argue that they are losing market share to foreign competition because of export controls. Which raises the question: if users can simply download encryption software for free, why is there still a market for American products with encryption features? The answer must be that the demand for American products is based on something more than encryption features alone. If that is true, it implies the possibility of addressing the needs of law enforcement without jeopardizing market share. In that regard, Chairman Kyl offered a model of the domestic market for information security solutions. The proponents of domestic controls may have done a disservice in focusing on a one-size fits all technical solution such as "key recovery." Such a focus limits the search for acceptable solutions to the cryptography-without due regard to the reality that cryptography is just one piece of the information security puzzle. Chairman Kyl's framework suggests that discrete applications and user groups must be addressed individually, providing an opportunity to identify promising technical solutions for accessibility where and when it is most useful. --end excerpt-- This tells us that the focus of our Cypherpunks efforts should continue to be on "payload" crypto and integration of interesting crypto items into the text or HTML payloads which these other applications work with. It looks obvious from the above--and from our years of seeing Jim Clark and suchlike talk about "meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement"--that the Feds will try to get the applications makers to incorporate key recovery. Ditto for the routers and packet movers. But all this is mooted by two major approaches: 1. Crypto at the message, or text, or payload level. Whatever Netscape or Microsoft or Lotus may do at the application level is made moot if people are using PGP or similar approaches. Furthermore, the constitutional protections are strong at the message level--jailing a person for not writing in an approved language is rather clearly a violation of the First Amendment. (This is a familiar message, about concentrating on the _contents_ of communcation systems. Many of us have been making this point for years and years. But it bears repeating in light of things like "Private Doorbell" and attempts to build CALEA (Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement, aka Digital Telephony) compliance into various systems.) I like the integration of PGP into Eudora, but I would rather have to do manual cut-and-paste operations than have some CALEA-compliant version of Eudora implement GAK-friendly crypto. I'm not accusing the Eudora folks of thinking of doing this, just trying to look ahead a few years to a world where the major ISPs and Web corporations have acquiesced to CALEA pressures. 2. Proxies and offshore remailers. Whatever the U.S. gov't. does, hard to control offshore services. And, again, the crypto needs to be at the payload level, so that all traces of GAK and whatnot can be easily removed. (The "::request-remailing-to" in the text field being a beautiful example of this. Very hard for governments to insist on what can and cannot be inside text fields!) And applications like digital money, if they ever get off the ground, will also benefit from some of the same kinds of thinking. (Ian Goldberg's demonstrations of his variant of Chaumian digital cash were of this sort, using conventional tools with the salient digital cash stuff orthogonal to the basic communications tools. We want this instead of, say, "Netscape Cash," implemented as part of Navigator and fully compliant with TLA wishes.) Anyway, I haven't been able to work up a lot of energy to write stuff here on the Cyphepunks list, for the usual reasons, but reading this Kyl report on plans to further stifle civil liberties motivates me to emphasize the obvious. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From jf_avon at citenet.net Fri Nov 13 11:35:12 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 03:35:12 +0800 Subject: Fwd: Turtles and Rocks(s) Message-ID: <199811131844.NAA01899@cti06.citenet.net> ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== >Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 06:37:41 -0500 >From: Dan MacInnis November 12th, 1998 the Toronto Board of Health announces they want to ban private owner ship of snakes, turtles, any and all exotic pets. Reaction of pet owners was immediate. In this city of just under 3 Million people, most said they would not abide by the law and hide their beloved pets. Where is Allan Rock when they need him? Allan is a resident of Toronto, surely he will leap to their aid and criminalize the ownership of turtles? Surely he knows Aunt Annie well enough to ask her to do it for him? [NOTE by the forwarder: the following paragraphs are a parody of bill C-68, the new firearms control bill. jfa.] But first, let's licence them. Register each, and the owners licenced. Then, we will know where these dangerous critters are, just in case later someone decides to hide a few. Where to put the sticker with the unique number will pose a problem. Later, we can ban them with impunity. The police can use the full force of the Criminal Code to enter and search for turtles and spiders at will. OK, Saskatchewan, this is your time to line up at the trough for jobs as Mirimachi did. We will need a registry office, with 300 employee's, high tech and trained bilingual people. Quebec does not need it, they are getting the RCMP training jobs. Hey, wait, maybe PEI wants it? ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== Ciao jfa Jean-Francois Avon, B.Sc. Physics, Montreal, Canada DePompadour, Soci�t� d'Importation Lt�e Limoges fine porcelain and french crystal JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers Instrumentation & control, LabView programming PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:0xC58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:0x5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C PGP ID:0x6CBA71F7:485888E9FD68415A2945 ACCB366D38486CBA71F7 From jf_avon at citenet.net Fri Nov 13 11:57:46 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 03:57:46 +0800 Subject: national ID cards in the US... Message-ID: <199811131840.NAA01803@cti06.citenet.net> Hi! I received that today. Maybe it can interest some of you. ========== excerpt ============ I Am Not a Number! Policy Spotlight on National ID Cards -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.free-market.net/features/spotlight/9811.html While most of us weren't looking, the U.S. Congress passed two bills that effectively authorize national ID cards. One was a law to reform health insurance that included a provision for a "Unique Patient Identifier." The other was an immigration law that required all U.S. states to include Social Security numbers on drivers' licenses. [snip] ========= end of excerpt ============ Ciao jfa "Cryptography�is�like�literacy�in�the�Dark�Ages.�Infinitely�potent,�for�good�and�ill...�yet�basically�an�intellectual�construct,�an�idea,�which�by�its�nature�will�resist�efforts�to�restrict�it�to�bureaucrats�and�others�who�deem�only�themselves�worthy�of�such�Privilege." _�A�thinking�man's�Creed�for�Crypto/�vbm. From emc at wire.insync.net Fri Nov 13 12:24:44 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 04:24:44 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent In-Reply-To: <199811130259.VAA11936@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199811131924.NAA25772@wire.insync.net> JYA writes: > Ron Rivest received on November 10 "US Patent 5835600: > Block encryption algorithm with data-dependent rotations:" > http://jya.com/rivest111098.htm (22K) So we can't use the rotate instruction with a data-dependent shift count in a block encryption algorithm without a license from Ron? Foo on that. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From cyphrpnk at rainbow.thinkthink.com Fri Nov 13 12:57:23 1998 From: cyphrpnk at rainbow.thinkthink.com (cypherpu) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 04:57:23 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges Message-ID: <199811131959.LAA19533@rainbow.thinkthink.com> I just spoke by phone with john(author of the article in question) at the sfbay guardian The article was distributed without the satire labeling that was present at the website... The article is Satire :( duped and disappointed :( From st_chris at gmx.net Fri Nov 13 13:26:43 1998 From: st_chris at gmx.net (Chris) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 05:26:43 +0800 Subject: How do crack newer Win95 PWL files ? Message-ID: <364C96E2.786E17F1@gmx.net> Does anybody know how the newer Win95 PWL files could be cracked ? I mean not those files which work with GLIDE (Header of those files is: 0xB04D464E = ".MFN", their username starts at position 0x208). I mean PWL files which have the following header: 0xE3828596 and the information begins at 0x252 ! I've pointed out that these PWL files depend in some way on a kind of randomness, a counter how often you have changed your password and may be on the username or the password. So if anybody knows how this could be done please let me know. From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 13 13:27:15 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 05:27:15 +0800 Subject: Info Age Crime Terror and War In-Reply-To: <199811131720.MAA28921@smtp0.atl.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <364C9320.2E73@lsil.com> John, The 1st - encrypted communications are speech. The 4th - plaintext that has been encrypted cannot be "found." The 5th - If your password is memorized then the only way to produce it is as a witness against yourself. So much for the layman's view. What is the current legal thinking and, more importantly, the relevant legal precedents? Aren't they ( LE ) making a bit of a leap when they say that the Constitution defines access to information not just items? It looks like the only way to achieve the information access they want is through modification of the Constitution. There is often a right-leaning political flavor to the CP list but isn't it such right-wingers as Rhenquist and Starr who invented the various forms of immunity that already can be used to subvert the 5th? Now they are trying to establish the legal equivalence of the physical and the virtual. I wish Kyle et al well in their fight against legions of terrorists but I hope that they have an impossible battle ahead of them when it comes to downgrading the Bill of Rights. Besides, more than wanting to protect us little lambs from terrorists, I think they recognize the degree to which technology is changing the world and are trying to resist the power shifts that are likely. The other reasons they give are mostly chaff. Regards, Mike John Young wrote: > > Senator Kyl has issued a long report, "Crime, Terror & > War: National Security and Public Safety in the Information > Age," which recounts his Subcommittee's hearings and > recommendations on encryption, Y2K, terrorism, info war, > domestic preparedness, wiretap, and more: > > http://jya.com/ctw.htm (97K) > > It describes a plan to combat threats to critical infrastructure > and the US homeland which, if implemented, would criminalize > much held dear to a few of this list's subscribers; other lurkers > will be overjoyed to read Kyl coming to the rescue of careers > and budgets of MIB and their suppliers of technologies of > political control. > > He wants DoD to get cracking on domestic protection, move over > piddling LEA. Civil liberties, nonsense. Crypto genie out of the bottle, > more nonsense. Getting government access to encrypted > communications, you bet. Through commercial products, yep. > From stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 13 13:32:41 1998 From: stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 05:32:41 +0800 Subject: network associates back in kra Message-ID: <19981113201903.A25115@tightrope.demon.co.uk> subject says it all roll on gpg -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk http://www.pineal.com/ if we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? - albert einstein From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 13:37:58 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 05:37:58 +0800 Subject: Woops! Lest I forget... (was Re: dbts: Hettinga's Road Trip toLondon...) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From: "Simon Fedida" To: "Duncan" , "Robert Hettinga" Subject: Re: dbts: Hettinga's Road Trip to London... Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:24:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Robert - My name is Simon Fedida, a colleague of Duncan's. Don't forget you are giving a talk at the London Business School on Monday 23 November...so don't accept too many beer invitations on monday!! Looking forward to meeeting you Simon -----Original Message----- From: Robert Hettinga To: Digital Bearer Settlement List ; dcsb at ai.mit.edu ; e$@vmeng.com ; cryptography at c2.net ; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net ; mac-crypto at vmeng.com : : --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From nobody at replay.com Fri Nov 13 13:59:49 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 05:59:49 +0800 Subject: reptilian politicians Message-ID: <199811132049.VAA28800@replay.com> >November 12th, 1998 the Toronto Board of Health announces they > want to ban private >owner ship of snakes, turtles, any and all exotic pets. >Reaction of pet owners was immediate. In this city of just under 3 >Million people, most said they would not abide by the law and >hide their beloved pets. In california, possession of a ferret is illegal. But its illegal for people eat california horses. Or burros, senators, and other asses. Those in the Ferret Underground (TM) find that horsemeat is now cheaper, and the furry ones love it. --Weasels ripped my flesh From jf_avon at citenet.net Fri Nov 13 14:03:41 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:03:41 +0800 Subject: Rememberance Day 1998. Message-ID: <199811132050.PAA06347@cti06.citenet.net> ================= forwarded from CFD V2 #696 ============ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 06:03:49 -0600 From: Dan MacInnis Subject: Rememberance Day 1998. It is past eleven O'clock here. It is November 11th, 1998. On this date every year my mind always returns to thoughts of my uncle, whose body, it's elements long ago returned to the earth, the dust undisturbed in a European grave, the man for whom I was renamed when the sad news reached my mother and grandfather on that early spring morning many years ago. Even as child their wet faces impacted me, forever. It drifted today to Ottawa, where I once stood cold but proud close to one Paul Hellyer, then Minister of National Defense under the Honorable Prime Minister Lester Bowles Pearson. It was Rememberance Day, Paul was delivering the obligatory service beside a Cenotaph, the soldiers, sailors and airmen stood at ease waiting for the ceremonies to end, pretending to listen to his resonant, educated voice. It was a bitter cold day, I knew they would prefer to be at their homes, or in their messes or just anyplace but on parade that day. I was proud to be associated with a government, indeed a country even, with such diversity, such room for individuals to work, play and overcome the challenges each would experience. It honestly was a Free Canada, individuals could aspire to whatever their imaginations deemed them worthy to become. Later that evening, at a Military function, a member of the RCAF suggested to me, each of us with the government issued glass in the right hand, white serviette properly wrapped around it to keep the hand warm and dry for handshaking, that someday he expected I would be Minister of National Defense. Sadly enough, we both believed it. But today is November 11th, 1998, at about 11:50 AM. My pride in the Liberal Party of Canada has been shattered. My belief that issues like Conscription, which polarized our founding peoples for two generations, would never surface, ever again, gone. My belief that MY PARTY stood for individual rights, the only force that would stand between the Elite's and the common person, gone. Forever. So it a doubly sad day for me. My uncle, and my Party. Bill C68 has intruded into the lives of so many Canadians, and if left to stand as is, will undermine everything I stood there that cold Ottawa morning to pay tribute, and everything my uncle died for in that foreign field so long ago. He died with no idea the rifle he carried to fight for our freedoms would become such a divisive symbol a few short years later. On this morning I shall not revisit the implications of C68. Rather, I will ask those struggling to preserve out heritage to continue the fight. Do not surrender. Then, when it becomes our time to let our earthly possessions go, when our bodies begin the journey back to the dust from whence they came and our spirits return to source, perhaps the cold white silk of the casket or the sides of the urn holding our ashes will be a bit warmer knowing we did all we could for those who follow. Anything less of us would be shameful. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Fri Nov 13 14:06:32 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:06:32 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: <199811131959.LAA19533@rainbow.thinkthink.com> Message-ID: <199811132049.OAA05427@manifold.algebra.com> I was not duped! In fact, I pointed the hoax out. Anyway, I feel for you/. igor cypherpu wrote: > > > > I just spoke by phone with john(author of the article in question) > at the sfbay guardian > The article was distributed without the satire labeling that was > present at the website... The article is Satire :( > > duped and disappointed :( > - Igor. From hrook at exchange.microsoft.com Fri Nov 13 14:27:01 1998 From: hrook at exchange.microsoft.com (Harvey Rook (Exchange)) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:27:01 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent Message-ID: <2FBF98FC7852CF11912A0000000000010D19AD69@DINO> It's a little bit more complicated than that. RC-6, which also uses data dependant rotations is patent free. Harv. > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Cordian [mailto:emc at wire.insync.net] > Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 11:25 AM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: Rivest Patent > > > JYA writes: > > > Ron Rivest received on November 10 "US Patent 5835600: > > Block encryption algorithm with data-dependent rotations:" > > http://jya.com/rivest111098.htm (22K) > > So we can't use the rotate instruction with a data-dependent shift > count in a block encryption algorithm without a license from Ron? > > Foo on that. > > -- > Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project > http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html > From hua at teralogic-inc.com Fri Nov 13 15:08:01 1998 From: hua at teralogic-inc.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:08:01 +0800 Subject: Info Age Crime Terror and War Message-ID: <01c001be0f54$4642b940$4164a8c0@mve21> Tim May wrote: > At 9:09 AM -0800 11/13/98, John Young wrote: > > Senator Kyl has issued a long report, "Crime, Terror & > > War: National Security and Public Safety in the Information > > Age," ... > > http://jya.com/ctw.htm (97K) > > I'll address one section, near the end of the report: > ... While I wholeheartly believe that the open-minded and interested public would want to hear these mindless rants responded to with some rationality and reason, I don't believe, for a moment that Kyl & gang are serious about debating anything. (Ok, there is a TEENY chance he is just confused.) My money on the claim that these are yet more rhetoric thrown out to confuse as many people who are easily taken over by sound bites as possible. It's not as easy to explain the practical reasons why crypto restrictions are unenforcible and unreasonable, but it's easy to trumpet the national security cause and to raise the spectre of police not being able to protect lil' Johnny and Mary. What I was hoping for from the pro-crypto ads was something like this: 1. Lil' Suzy writes E-Mail to Lil' Mary to meet at the mall at some well-lighted public place. 2. Child molestor X intercepts E-Mail, but it's weak 40-bit encryption, and he breaks it. 3. Mr. X forges E-Mail from Mary to Suzy changing the meeting location to some dark corner A, and forges E-Mail from Suzy to Mary changing the meeting locaiton to some dark corner B. 4. Mr. X's co-conspirators, Mr. Y and Mr Z intercepts Mary and Suzy at the respective dark corners ... they scream for help ... no one answers at either location ... fade to black ... This is the sort of stuff that would really counter the stupid rhetoric from Sen. Kyl. Ern From davidwatts_98 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 15:20:13 1998 From: davidwatts_98 at yahoo.com (David Watts) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:20:13 +0800 Subject: U.S. Attorney Morgenthau on Money Laundering Message-ID: <19981113224417.16157.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> New York Times November 9, 1998, Monday Editorial Desk On the Trail of Global Capital By Robert M. Morgenthau What are the five largest financial centers in the world? Many will name New York, London, Tokyo and Hong Kong. But how many will guess the fifth? It's the Cayman Islands -- or so, at least, its Government claims on its Web site. It's certainly the case that huge companies -- including hedge funds like Long-Term Capital Management -- have made the Caymans their nominal home. And bank regulators in the United States have confirmed that bank deposits on the islands now total about $500 billion, twice the amount of four years ago and more than the amount on deposit in the New York Federal Reserve District. That is about $14 million for every man, woman and child in the Caymans. The financial community there consists of 575 banks and trust companies. More than 20,000 corporations are chartered on the Caymans. What draws so many capitalists to so unlikely a spot? Secrecy, for one thing. In the United States, capital markets are regulated by requiring transparency in financial dealings. The Caymans, by contrast, have no such openness, no tiresome restrictions on the pursuit of wealth. With respect to regulation, the Caymans have won the race to the bottom. Take, for example, Long-Term Capital Management, which had to be bailed out earlier this year. The fund's basic operations are conducted in Connecticut, but it is chartered in the Cayman Islands. The fund kept the details of its borrowings and investments secret -- a result not obtainable where there must be concerns for the curiosity of regulators. The results were disastrous. No one knew the absurd extent to which Long-Term Capital's confident superstars were leveraging their assets -- until the bubble burst. The Caymans' financial secrecy laws make it easy to hide suspect dealings. It is now well known that the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, whose collapse in 1991 was the biggest banking scandal in history, took advantage of those laws. Beyond the assistance they lend to criminals, secrecy laws aid reckless acts by high-rolling entrepreneurs. But in fact, most of the ''offshore'' Cayman banks are run not from the islands, but from New York. Amazingly, the Cayman Government Web site itself boasts that, of the 575 banks and trust companies ''based'' in the islands, a full 106 actually have a physical presence there! Resort to these institutions is a simple charade. What would happen if a determined American bank inspector flew to the islands and demanded to see the books of one of these institutions? He would be arrested. It's the law. There is yet another explanation for the remarkable blossoming of financial institutions in the Cayman Islands. The islands have no income tax, no capital gains tax, no value added tax, no sales tax, no inheritance tax and no tax treaties. Sophisticated Americans place billions in Cayman investment vehicles like Long-Term Capital that are carefully structured to reduce American tax liability. Citizens of other countries invest billions there so their incomes will be exempt from American taxes. Commendably, the Treasury Department recently resolved to study ways to keep sham transactions from having an impact on tax liabilities, and the Group of Seven industrialized nations has said that hedge funds should ''possibly'' be subject to disclosure rules. But those are only tentative steps. More can be done. The Cayman Islands are a British dependency, and both the governor and the attorney general are appointed by the British Government. This means Britain can end the laissez-faire practices of the islands. And since, from a financial perspective, the islands are an American dependency, Washington can also stop the offshore shenanigans -- for instance, by imposing more prudent oversight of lenders doing business with Cayman entities. The Caymans are only part of the problem. The Isle of Jersey, the British Virgin Islands, Cyprus, Antigua, Liechtenstein, Panama, the Netherlands Antilles, the Bahamas, Luxembourg and, of course, Switzerland all offer ''offshore'' sanctuary. Until action is taken to eliminate these havens, taxpayers and honest players in the financial markets will be at a very unfair disadvantage. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From maxinux at bigfoot.com Fri Nov 13 15:39:21 1998 From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (Max Inux) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:39:21 +0800 Subject: network associates back in kra In-Reply-To: <19981113201903.A25115@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Steve Mynott wrote: >subject says it all > >roll on gpg Well, They were automagically put back on the list when NAI bought TIS, this has no baring on PGP at all. Source code is in stores, and being scanned as we speak, the PGP developers would not let them initiate any KRAP stuff with pgp, they value there dignity and integrity. Max -- Max Inux Hey Christy!!! KeyID 0x8907E9E5 Kinky Sex makes the world go round O R Strong crypto makes the world safe If crypto is outlawed only outlaws will have crypto Fingerprint(Photo Also): 259D 59F7 D98C CD73 1ACD 54Ea 6C43 4877 8907 E9E5 From emc at wire.insync.net Fri Nov 13 15:46:31 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:46:31 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent In-Reply-To: <2FBF98FC7852CF11912A0000000000010D19AD69@DINO> Message-ID: <199811132325.RAA26274@wire.insync.net> Harvey Rook writes: > It's a little bit more complicated than that. RC-6, which also uses data > dependant rotations is patent free. Wasn't that a requirement for being an AES submission? As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of permitting software to be patented. Particularly things like RSA for which obvious prior art existed, and the plethora of microprocessor patents which cover things like doing branch prediction and switching instruction sets in absurdly obvious and simple ways. Then you have the resulting silly lawsuits over the silly patents and other innovation-suppressing and time-wasting exercises. The corporate "Push to Patent" is remarkably similar to the academic "Push to Publish." 90% of the output of either is not worth reading. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From jim at acm.org Fri Nov 13 16:20:45 1998 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:20:45 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent Message-ID: <364CC4AF.E30659DA@acm.org> Eric Cordian [mailto:emc at wire.insync.net] writes: >> So we can't use the rotate instruction with a data-dependent shift >> count in a block encryption algorithm without a license from Ron? "Harvey Rook (Exchange)" writes: > It's a little bit more complicated than that. RC-6, which also uses data > dependant rotations is patent free. It's a little bit more complicated than that. RC6 will be available without licensing charges to anybody if it's tapped as the official winner of the AES bakeoff. If it's not selected, then it's my understanding that RSADSI (Security Dynamics?) may choose to require payment for licensing -- I assume based on the RC5 patent. The current understanding is that AES candidates sign over their rights only if they are selected. Several candidates have been explicitly put into the public domain in advance of the selection process; RC6 is not one of these. Please correct me if it's more complicated than . -- Jim Gillogly Trewesday, 23 Blotmath S.R. 1998, 23:38 12.19.5.12.6, 11 Cimi 19 Zac, Third Lord of Night From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Fri Nov 13 16:29:24 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:29:24 +0800 Subject: nCipher joined KRAP/GAK drive too? Message-ID: <199811132348.XAA27396@server.eternity.org> This arose out of a discussion on ukcrypto about NAI (which PGP Inc is now part of) having recently rejoined the KRA list -- I notice that nCipher are on it too, and there was a earlier exchange on ukcrypto about nCipher... ========= nCipher too are now on the KRAP list (wonder how long for?) Bruce Tober forwards from www.kra.org: > [...] > nCipher Corporation Ltd. nCipher fairly recently made some press release that was commented on on this list as sounding a bit in favour of UK/DTI/GCHQ GAK attempts. Then they claimed that it was just being read incorrectly and the text was neutral and the title that was badly chosen and by hired PR. So nCipher guys, how do you explain the membership of KRAP away? >From the last list discussion, Ian Jackson, who works for nCipher wrote: : We do not have any weakened or GAK products. The Marketing Director : has assured me that we have no plans to produce any. also: : So, in summary, there are no artificial restrictions on the sizes of : keys which can be used, generated or stored by our units, and no : backdoor GAK or key recovery facilities. given the KRAP membership one might have cause to be worry that this may not still be true. Perhaps people using recent nCipher boards or with recent software upgrades ought to read the specs real closely -- to see if it admits to encrypting stuff to GCHQ also! Ian also wrote (in a post marked as not an official nCipher statement): : I personally would feel that putting deliberate backdoors or other : similar things into our products would be highly unethical and I would : have nothing to do with it. and: : This has nothing to do with the spooks or escrow or anything of the : kind. That's what GAK and KRAP is all about -- putting backdoors into products which the government and secret service groups like GCHQ, NSA and ECHELON get the keys to. and: : I do believe that the personal views of senior management at : nCipher - particularly towards the technical end - are opposed to : escrow et al. Perhaps those technical types could have a go at prevailing over whichever marketing type or suit decided to sign up for KRAP. This is not intended to attack Ian, as he seemed pretty much against GAK, and Niko van Someren to some extent too. Not so sure about the other non technical can Someren, but clearly someone in nCipher thinks KRAP and GAK are a good marketing ploy. Otherwise, I figure you're better off giving money to DEC alpha than supporting GAKkers. Alpha's run SSLeay pretty fast. Adam ========= and a second post, with more specifics: ========= I wrote: > nCipher too are now on the KRAP list (wonder how long for?) here we go: http://www.ncipher.com/news/files/press/97/keyrecov.html since May 97! contains such gems as: : We are delighted to support the Key Recovery Alliance," said : Alex van Someren, President of nCipher. so that pin-points at least one GAK enthousiast at nCipher. It also makes for some rather strange contradictions. The flap about nCiphers apparent whole-hearted support for DTI GAK attempts was May this year -- nCipher had already been a paid up KRAP member for a whole year. press release continues (least there is any confusion as to what KRA as an organisation is about): : Encryption makes information readable only to a person holding a : unique "key" which will unlock the data. Encryption is critical to : ensure the security of sensitive information that is either stored : electronically or sent over public networks such as the Internet. : Key recovery is a new method that allows for authorized access : to encrypted information without the need to store or "escrow" : any encryption keys with a third party. Key recovery is an : effective tool to meet commercial, private and institutional needs. institutions obliquely mentioned being presumably the likes of GCHQ and NSA? yet Ian was saying: > : So, in summary, there are no artificial restrictions on the sizes of > : keys which can be used, generated or stored by our units, and no > : backdoor GAK or key recovery facilities. saying there were no key recovery facilities, and : We do not have any weakened or GAK products. The Marketing Director : has assured me that we have no plans to produce any. and no plans to install any. yet this is what KRA is all about, and they were signed up to it already at that time. I suppose someone is now going to try to claim that KRA is all about key recovery for commercial purposes, but not for government -- but this is not the way I understand that KRA came into being at all. I think it is very much a NSA led attempt to further the clipper attempts. If I recall it started in the wake of the NSA/NIST attempts at clipper IV (or whatever number it was at by then) to coerce companies into including software based key escrow. Probably tied up with the permission to use marginally higher key lengths if the company can demonstrate to NSA a plan to introduce GAK in two year time scale (within the US), though I may be forgetting the details. Anyone like to clarify KRAs aims and history? Adam From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Fri Nov 13 16:38:03 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:38:03 +0800 Subject: NAI(L) in PGPs coffin (Re: network associates back in kra) In-Reply-To: <19981113201903.A25115@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199811140004.AAA27507@server.eternity.org> Steve Mynott writes: > subject says it all > > roll on gpg NAI rejoining KRAP would be something of a gift for any competitors of PGP producing PGP compabile replacements if there were any serious contenders. Or perhaps for S/MIME vendors, if they weren't already mostly KRAP members, or pretty neutral / prone to be bribed by defense contracts, and if S/MIME and PKIX weren't so hierarchical in design: I'm not sure S/MIME based offerings are much of an alternative because the hierarchical model, and ability of a CA to restrict what the end user can use keys for (not for certification for example), and generally inability to use clients without cert obtained from another KRA member -- verisign, all add up to bad news. The whole mess can be controlled by GAKkers via the CA, and the CAs are the target for example of the UK GAK attempt being led by the DTI (Department of Trade and Industry -- meant to be representing industry, but instead trying it's level best to put GCHQ / ECHELON interests ahead of business interests, as acknowledged by DTI winning Privacy International's hall of shame award.). To expand briefly on the UK (DTI) current proposal: it seems to be that they are trying to stack the deck by giving signatures made with a key certified by a UK government "licensed" CA given better recognition in law than signatures made by an unlicensed CA. The licensed CA doesn't have to escrow signatures keys, but if it does and provides any service relating to confidentiality keys also it must also keep private keys. (Deliverable to GCHQ / ECHELON within 1 hr 24 hours a day 365 days a year -- GAK on steroids). Someone on ukcrypto coined the phrase `licensed to leak' to express the government coerced baggage that goes with a licensed CA. Indeed roll on the GPG. Adam From jei at zor.hut.fi Fri Nov 13 18:52:10 1998 From: jei at zor.hut.fi (Jukka E Isosaari) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:52:10 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Privacy Group Pushes For Hearings on ECHELON (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 06:52:45 -0700 (MST) From: mea culpa To: InfoSec News Subject: [ISN] Privacy Group Pushes For Hearings on ECHELON Push for hearings on Echelon: Global spy system needs scrutiny, says rights group http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981112_xex_push_hearing.shtml Stephan Archer In an effort to create some accountability between the country's citizens and the National Security Agency's top-secret global surveillance system known as Echelon, the Free Congress Foundation is urging that congressional hearings be held concerning the NSA's use of the system. Originally, Echelon was designed to spy on the Communist Bloc during the Cold War. However, since the end of the Cold War, the NSA has used it for other questionable purposes that include spying on the citizens of U.S. allies as well as the citizens of other countries, commercial spying, and even domestic spying. In essence, Echelon works through a series of high-tech spy facilities located primarily in five countries: the United States, Canada, England, New Zealand, and Australia. These countries, which are sworn to secrecy about the project in a secret agreement known as UKUSA, all actively take part in this encroachment of privacy into the lives of the people of the world by collecting virtually all fax transmissions, e-mails, and phone calls. Not even cellular phone calls escape the grasp of the Echelon system. "Obviously, we need to have these capabilities," said Wayne Madsen, who worked in the National COMSEC Assessment Center at the NSA's Fort Meade, Maryland, facility back in the 1980s and is currently a senior fellow at the Electronic Privacy Information Center. As an example of our country's need for the system, Madsen said, "No one can argue about using the system to counter terrorism. Where people will have a problem is where Echelon is used for political and business interests." The Echelon system gets most of its data by collecting all transmissions handled by the Intelsat and Inmarsat satellites, which are responsible for much of the electronic communication that takes place between countries. Earth-bound communication is sucked up and absorbed by other spy satellites that the NSA has launched into space. "It's a huge vacuum cleaner," said Madsen. Once these spy facilities collect the phone calls, e-mails, and faxes, of virtually everyone on earth, the Echelon system sorts them through a kind of filter system known as the Echelon dictionary. This dictionary looks for "flag" words in all of the transmitted communication. While it lets a majority of all collected material pass through its filter, it tags those that may pose a threat and tracks all subsequent communication coming from the source of the original "flagged" message. Concerning Echelon's inherent intrusion on people's privacy, Patrick Poole, the deputy director for the Center of Technology Policy at the Free Congress Foundation, said, "While we understand the need for the intelligence power embodied by Echelon, the indiscriminate use of Echelon presents major threats to liberty not only to U.S. citizens but to citizens around the world." And this threat is real. The foundation's report states that U.S. leaders have, in fact, already abused this awesome technology. For example, the report states the following: "In September 1993, President Clinton asked the CIA to spy on Japanese auto manufacturers that were designing zero-emission cars and to forward that information to the Big Three U.S. car manufacturers: Ford, General Motors and Chrysler." "You can assume that all major U.S. corporations are fed items of interest (via Echelon) from time to time to give them a leg up on international competitors," said Madsen. Although this may be seen as a strategic corporate weapon for American businesses, in reality, it's an example of technology that can get out of hand. For example, former Canadian spy Mike Frost stated in his book, "Spyworld," that in 1981, there was an "accidental" cell phone intercept of the American ambassador to Canada that resulted in the U.S. getting outbid by the Canadians in a grain deal with China. The deal brought in $2.5 billion for the Canadian Wheat Board. With this kind of abuse of Echelon's power, the question as to whether or not the U.S. government has been using this power for political purposes can be easily raised. This question is seemingly answered in the foundation's report. "The discovery of domestic surveillance targeted at American civilians for reasons of 'unpopular' political affiliation -- or for no probable cause at all -- in violation of the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments of the Constitution is regularly impeded by very elaborate and complex legal arguments and privilege claims by the intelligence agencies and the U.S. government," the report says. When asked if the system has been used by the U.S. government to spy on its citizens, Madsen told WorldNetDaily that he was sure it has been. "I don't believe that the NSA or the current Administration would hesitate to use this system on American citizens for their own agendas," he said. Outraged by this flagrant abuse of power illustrated by our country's elected officials, Poole said, "While the U.S. is the prime mover behind the Echelon system, it's shameful that the European Parliament is the body holding the constitutional debate in regards to Echelon today." A September 1998 report for the European Parliament by the Omega Foundation said, "Within Europe, all e-mail, telephone, and fax communications are routinely intercepted by the United States National Security Agency. According to the Omega Foundation report, it is this ability of the NSA that brings major concern to the European Parliament. In an effort to bring the issues surrounding Echelon to the forefront of American politics, the Free Congress Foundation plans to send out a report about Echelon to all of the 500 policy organizations in the U.S. as well as to select members of Congress. These select individuals include members from both the House and Senate intelligence committees as well as House and Senate Constitution subcommittees. Copies of the report will also be sent to the congressional leadership of both parties. Although the foundation is hoping to get some action out of these members of Congress, Poole said that support at the grassroots level of our nation's political structure will be a must if this issue isn't to end up buried by the intelligence committees. "For there to be any account and oversight to the Echelon system, the American people are going to have to contact their elected representatives in order to investigate the abuses that we know have occurred in regards to the Echelon system," Poole said. See Free Congress Foundation's report on Echelon at: http://www.freecongress.org/ctp/echelon.html -o- Subscribe: mail majordomo at repsec.com with "subscribe isn". Today's ISN Sponsor: Repent Security Incorporated [www.repsec.com] From palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com Fri Nov 13 19:32:49 1998 From: palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com (palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:32:49 +0800 Subject: Enter Symbol's Developer Contest at the Palm Computing Platform Developer Conference!!! (revised message) Message-ID: <199811140313.TAA21615@toad.com> Symbol announces the first annual Symbol SPT 1500 Developer Contest!!!!! You could win a Toshiba Tecra 780 DVD 266 MHz Pentium II Notebook by developing the Best SPT 1500 Application or You could win a EXP PC Card DVD Traveler Bundle by developing the Best Riverbed Scout MTS Application or the Best Puma Satellite Forms Application or the Best IDEAM EZTrak Application. Other cool prizes will also be awarded. Everyone who participates will receive a t-shirt. You must be a registered attendee of the Palm Computing Developer Conference to participate. Winners will be announced at the Conference on December 4. For more details on the contest, and to register for the conference, point your browser to http://www.palmdevcon.com. From palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com Fri Nov 13 22:04:05 1998 From: palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com (palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:04:05 +0800 Subject: Enter Symbol's Developer Contest at the Palm Computing Platform Developer Conference!!! (revised message) Message-ID: <199811140539.VAA02299@toad.com> Symbol announces the first annual Symbol SPT 1500 Developer Contest!!!!! You could win a Toshiba Tecra 780 DVD 266 MHz Pentium II Notebook by developing the Best SPT 1500 Application or You could win a EXP PC Card DVD Traveler Bundle by developing the Best Riverbed Scout MTS Application or the Best Puma Satellite Forms Application or the Best IDEAM EZTrak Application. Other cool prizes will also be awarded. Everyone who participates will receive a t-shirt. You must be a registered attendee of the Palm Computing Developer Conference to participate. Winners will be announced at the Conference on December 4. For more details on the contest, and to register for the conference, point your browser to http://www.palmdevcon.com. From frantz at netcom.com Fri Nov 13 22:22:25 1998 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:22:25 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: <199811131959.LAA19533@rainbow.thinkthink.com> Message-ID: I always thought that crabgrass would be a better carrier for THC genes, and give the DEA maximum fits. However, given that 5 states have passed medical pot initiatives, one over the attempts of their legislature to destroy the previous initiative, perhaps the DEA has enough problems. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Macintosh: Didn't do every-| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | thing right, but did know | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | the century would end. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 22:33:55 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:33:55 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. In-Reply-To: <000001be0c04$5f604620$0100a8c0@p180.Workgroup> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:57 PM -0500 on 11/13/98, Black Unicorn wrote: > If only we could be rid of this pesky cash would could eliminate organized > crime forever. Reminds me of something Vinnie Moscaritolo, my alter ego and Samoan attorney, once said. "'If we could just pass a few more laws' we could all be criminals." Nonetheless, I think that DBS will be much more about economics than privacy or even law. The contrapositive of Unicorn's excellent rant is that the market for money "laundering" and financial privacy is a rediculuously small fraction of the market for economic efficiency. That digital bearer settlement gives us more or less perfect financial privacy if done under certain conditions is much more a happy accident than anything else, just like the cheapest way to do a transaction prior to blind signatures and hash collisions was with book-entry transactions instead of paper bearer certificates. I suppose it *might* turn out that you really *can* do an instantaneously executing, clearing, and settling on-line realtime book-entry transaction, for everything from pico- to quadridollars, and it would be cheaper, both macroeconomically and microeconomically, than a digital bearer one, but I just don't think it's possible at all. And, of course, we wouldn't have coach fare to Cleveland without a bunch of "fanatics" out there, prattling away about slipping the surly bounds of earth, the joy of flight, and all that... ;-). Thank god for the "fanatics", I say, but let's make sure we pay attention to Bill Bradley's adage that it's bad luck to be behind at the end of the game. Whatever is cheapest while still remaining a functional bearer protocol wins, in other words. And, in my book, "functional" means "functionally anonymous". It's just cheaper that way. Having a plane that actually flies is way cheaper than one which just goes fast down the runway, or even one which scoots along nicely off the ground, but only in ground effect. Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 iQEVAwUBNk0f7cUCGwxmWcHhAQErBQgAhaFscqaknL0EMnsiKMWYgoHntw88JE2Z 11K8/oyoG/dX8eus5Wqnh05eVY8JWGQ9Fu3C2uXPZbZCa5wh7tjrmIcWOTDgx8kC Sz11IJJLdcWrdTPw7a1sf/WwhyG4f7NVlyVGNqMVuGrBjImsC5TtG2yU39DVME08 ZR3bVdn6egcCDpve+E7RQ0LYWDHxitxYV3RIaCG/wj9zp5JrMPTAvIgbT+J62T8s bYUNJyf7XQnkcT5275VLAzFYy+3KBRuyp9k6uIhBaBGKBNRUw/wBwTB8NoBMPcd8 AT3276SNz1oBA+Z/R0JPRBrRkAfio2o3DFIXoC5NY49ikpBuyOEQHg== =R0aY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 22:33:58 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:33:58 +0800 Subject: New Electronic Financial Services Links Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: johnmuller at mail.earthlink.net Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:11:55 -0800 To: e-carm at c3po.kc-inc.net, dbs at philodox.com, dcsb at ai.mit.edu From: John Muller Subject: New Electronic Financial Services Links Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ New links that will shortly be added to the ABA Joint Subcommittee on Electronic Financial Services Web site (http://www.abanet.org/buslaw/efss), in no particular order: Dept. of Commerce request for input on data privacy principles "safe harbor" http://www.ita.doc.gov/ecom/menu.htm SEC announces 23 enforcement actions for Internet stock fraud http://www.sec.gov/news/netfraud.htm RISKS Digest Vol. 20 No. 6, Dan Geer - "Risk Management is Where the Money Is" http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/20.06.html European Commission proposes a directive on distance selling of financial services http://europa.eu.int/comm/dg15/en/finances/consumer/891.htm European Commission proposes a framework for the European financial services sector to facilitate cross-border operation http://europa.eu.int/comm/dg15/en/finances/general/fsen.htm European Commission press release: the EU Data Protection Directive takes effect http://europa.eu.int/comm/dg15/en/media/dataprot/news/925.htm Federal Reserve announcement on enhanced settlement services http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/boarddocs/press/BoardActs/1998/19981103/ Federal Reserve announcement of reduction in fees for electronic payment services http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/boarddocs/press/BoardActs/1998/19981104/ OTS policy statement on privacy of customer information http://www.ots.treas.gov/docs/77879.html Journal of Information Law and Technology issue on Globalisation and E-commerce http://elj.warwick.ac.uk/jilt/issue/1998_3/default.htm Papers from the 21st National Information Systems Security Conference http://csrc.nist.gov/nissc/1998/papers.html BCI - Northern Trust 2nd Circuit case under UCC Article 4A and common law seeking a return of funds from an electronic funds transfer http://www.law.pace.edu/lawlib/legal/us-legal/judiciary/second-circuit/test3 /97-7633.opn.html Hogan Systems v. Cybresource 5th Circuit decision on copyright and trade secret claims arising out of third party contractor use of software licensed to a bank http://laws.findlaw.com/5th/9710645CV0.html FTC comments on proposed UCC Article 2B http://www.ftc.gov/be/v980032.htm The ERISA Industry Committee comments to the IRS on the use of new technologies in retirement plans http://www.eric.org/testimony/technologies.htm Council of Europe - model contract clauses on transborder data flows http://www.coe.fr/dataprotection/ectype.htm E*Trade invests in International Securities Exchange, an electronic options exchange in development http://www.etrade.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+Home?gxml=pr111098c.html Electronic Markets Vol. 11 No. 3 on electronic contracting http://www.electronicmarkets.org/netacademy/publications.nsf/all_pk/929 Adrian McCullagh article on Trust in Electronic Commerce http://www.acs.org.au/president/1998/past/io98/etrust.htm CheckFree and others form the Electronic Banking Association http://www.e-banking.org/ John Muller johnmuller at earthlink.net "Things are not as they seem, neither are they otherwise" --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 22:34:24 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:34:24 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From: "Black Unicorn" To: , "dbs" Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:57:51 -0600 Keywords: dbs MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ tboyle at rosehill.net comments: [...] > But I simply cannot comprehend the breadth of the agreement > on this dbs conference, and depth of conviction, that DBS money > should be designed with the **deliberate objective** of being > untraceable, for purposes of law enforcement or taxation. In the case of some DBS advocates you are overstating the matter. In the case of others, vastly understating it. > I have a lot of respect for you guys' intellect but I think > you're wrong on two fundamental points: > > 1. Rule of law. Money laundering is a critical piece in > organized crime. The democratic countries have banking laws. > Do you think these laws should be followed, or NOT? (Scurrying > of feet as all the DBS readers avoid answering.) Well let's examine this. The view that all democratic countries have banking laws really begs the question. "What are the differences between said laws." I can tell you with solid authority, they are many. I've often repeated this story here and elsewhere. It's all a matter of public record. Set the way-back-machine to just after Reagan has entered office. Ole Ron began to crack down on tax evasion and in particular offshore havens. Taxes would be cut, it was reasoned, but only if loopholes were filled and evaders rooted out. (Those of us old enough to remember might even recall nodding at the sense of it). This policy was particular hard on certain Caribbean nations. This was the time of operation Tradewinds (search for it in the congressional record) and other IRS black projects where the IRS actually violated local law to spy on foreign banks even going so far as to drug guards, steal the briefcases of banking executives, perform unwarranted searches, bribe foreign officials and all manner of nonsense to root out tax evaders which might also be U.S. citizens. For a long while there was a project which opened and Xeroxed all the incoming mail at JFK which appeared to originate from offshore havens. This wasn't in the 50's mind you, but the 80s. It was acts like these which prompted the Swiss to strengthen their banking secrecy during the Second World War. Just another day in the park in the U.S. Just recently this year Mexico nearly indicted several U.S. law officials for breaking Mexican law during the investigation of several Mexican banks. Clearly the practice hasn't abated much in the last 15 years.. (Note also that today all these methods (except for drugging guards maybe) have their legal equivalents in the United States, which is in itself a powerful statement). This continued for some time back when Ron was at the helm until the United States finally began to threaten to revoke the U.S. charters of certain banks it considered uncooperative. At this point a visitor, unannounced, flew into D.C. and literally dropped by the White House with no press coverage or fanfare at all in the late evening. That visitor was Margaret Thatcher and she proceeded to explain to Ron over the course of a few hours that if he kept it up many of the British Protectorates would literally have their economies crippled. Literally overnight the matter was dropped and the offshore centers left to quietly continue their business. So much for democratic countries with universal ideas about banking law, or the rule of "law and order" in banking regulation. This is but one example. So: Rule of Law - means little in the global-political scheme of things Democratic Countries Have Banking Laws - none of which are consistent or consistently applied Money Laundering is a Key Piece of Organized Crime - This begs a definition of Money Laundering. "Concealing the proceeds of a criminal act" sounds legitimate, but consider that it has been held to apply to a store clerk who sold food stamps for cash and deposited the proceeds in his personal (non-anonymous) checking account: Indicted in Federal Court for Money Laundering with a maximum possible term of 35 years. (This is a prosecutorial tactic to get a guilty plea to the basic theft charge). Consider also that third parties often take it on the chin with the wide definition currently applied. Case in point: Ma and Pa travel agency innocently accepts a deposit from notorious attorney of drug dealer. Their entire holding account is seized including the deposits of some 700 other potential travelers. After 7 years of fighting the seizure, the money is finally returned, without interest. (Effectively halfing the value of the funds). The business is ruined, its reputation in tatters. Ma and Pa fight it out in bankruptcy, lose their house, most of their retirement proceeds, etc. In the process this case sets the precedent that any amount of illicit funds ($1) deposited in any size account ($500 million) will render the entire account liable to seizure and permit it to be held in lieu of forfeiture hearings. That can go on for 7 years or so. Money which is "laundered" has its title literally revert to the U.S. Treasury. This means third parties who innocently accept these funds are liable for their return, even if they are passed on in the course of business. Beginning to seem silly? Money laundering is an invented offense. It's definition in the United States has grown so broad so as to be laughable, if not so frightening. Do not think that these are isolated incidents. So, money laundering in its commonly understood sense might be key to organized crime, but what passes for money laundering in the United States has little to do with it. Myth: Money Laundering laws have a serious impact on organized crime. This is increasingly nonsense. The United States spends close to $22,000.00 to seize $1.00 of illicit funds. Money Laundering today is extremely sophisticated and enforcement doesn't catch the drug dealers, it catches professional money launderers. Today if you are a drug lord you drop $30 million in cash with a professional launderer who cuts you a "clean" check for 85% of that figure or so on the spot and takes the risk of laundering the funds on his own. Myth: Money Laundering can be detected accurately and effectively and leads to drug and organized crime convictions. Nonsense. Assume for sake of argument that you could detect 99% of fraudulent transactions with the measures in place (entirely impossible) and that your false positive rate was only 1% (also entirely impossible). SWIFT alone processes $2 trillion per day. That's on the order of $600 trillion per year, just in SWIFT. (Add another $1.3 billion for CHIPS and $989 million for Fedwire daily. Oh, don't forget the foreign exchange markets, oh and NYSE, oh and NASDAQ, oh and international letters of credit, oh and...) The most sinister estimates of the global criminal economy (primarily drug money) run around $400 billion per year. Your false positives will identify $6 trillion in naughty funds that are actually pure just in SWIFT. Your correct hits will identify $396 billion in naughty funds in all systems worldwide. In this example you will have 15 times as many false hits as correct hits ignoring the lionshare of world financial systems. This is under the very best of circumstances. It's a losing game.. It's a game only the mathematically challenged or politically motivated will play. In fact, money laundering is a tack on offense that is brought to bear after an arrest on other charges has been made. The number of cases that originate with a money laundering investigation is vanishingly small. The payment system today eats up over 1.5% of the GNP primarily because of nonsense regulations like CTR's and other transaction reporting requirements which can cost up to $15 per transaction and (as we see above) have little if any effect on professional money laundering. Given these numbers the degree of "fraud" in the world financial system is far better than in the credit card system, which has pretty much reached equilibrium. (Fraud accounts for about 5% of credit card costs. Customer service accounts for about 15%). > There is a certain logic in the notion of having a legislative > process and laws. Our laws in the U.S. weren't written by > angels up in heaven, but they are better than some other places. In the case of money laundering regulation I should say almost _no_ other places. > If DBS participants advocate that money laundering laws are > not to be followed, I'm sorry but YOU GUYS have the burden > of logically arguing your position. So shut up and quit > raggin' on *me* about it. I would just like to see them applied with rationality. It's fairly clear that that's too much to ask of the United States. Interestingly enough it's typically multi-party systems of government that have a balanced approach to money laundering. Perhaps this is because grandstanding with things like "the war on drugs" isn't as effective outside of a two party system. Sheds new light on your comment about democracies and banking regulations. Some jurisdictions get along quite well without the nonsense perpetrated in the United States. Like Switzerland. Switzerland has one of the nicest things in a cash economy I have seen. A freely circulated 1000CHF note. It's worth about $750. (The United States phased out $500 bills long ago to deal with laundering). In Switzerland you can drop a 1000CHF note at a restaurant and no one bats an eye. In the U.S. you cant take a cab home from the International Terminal unless you have something smaller than a $50. Somehow Switzerland has manage to survive without looting in the streets and rampant crime. Luxembourg is in a similar situation. I tried to purchase a car some years ago outside of D.C. with cash. Completely legitimate transaction. No interest nonsense for me to worry about. No waiting for the car while the check clears. Simple. Right? The dealership called the police, convinced they were striking a blow against drug dealers. It's really gone too far. > 2. Practicality. Without at least a fig leaf of cooperation > with banking authorities and other police, DBS will not be > permitted. Transactions denominated in DBS won't be enforceable > in courts, and fraud won't be a crime. Reporting fraud in DBS > deal would be like reporting a fraud in purchase of heroin. Practicality? Of course any student of political science will understand that where government enforcement of contracts fails or falls short, organized crime tends to move in. Reporting fraud in the purchase of heroin to the right enforcement cartel tends to be much more effective in rendering results than U.S. courts I'd wager. Clearly, the United States would not benefit by forcing DBS underground. Several jurisdictions will permit DBS and enforce it. (I'm involved in the legislative process for one such law in a European jurisdiction now). If you believe that DBS should be outlawed then you must agree that cash should be outlawed. There is effectively no difference but velocity. > The principal reason for failure of electronic money, other > than cards used in physical establishments, is you can't trust > the seller to send you the goods. That's why everybody is > using credit cards, and bearing the 2-3% charge for "insurance". > > You guys seem to think untraceable DBS will be accepted, if > only a good enough encryption algorithm can be found???? 1% of the GNP. Instant 1% growth for changing a system of clearing. Think about that for awhile. > I think your ideas have a fatal, logical weakness. Without > any practical means to verify who got your money, or even > a legal *right* to enforce a contract, what good is dbs? > It's not even money. It's more like a coupon or something. What you are missing is that all your arguments apply equally to cash. Why is cash used if this is so? Prove to me that you just gave me six $100 bills. You are, "without any practical means to verify who got your money or even a legal *right* to enforce a contract" if the transaction is larger than $500. If only we could be rid of this pesky cash would could eliminate organized crime forever. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 13 22:36:17 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:36:17 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Message-ID: Long-time DCSBers will remember Unicorn's talk on money laundering to us a few years ago... This more recent rant of his on the Digital Bearer Settlement list is about the best articulation of his position that I've seen him write. Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text From: "Black Unicorn" To: , "dbs" Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:57:51 -0600 Keywords: dbs MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ tboyle at rosehill.net comments: [...] > But I simply cannot comprehend the breadth of the agreement > on this dbs conference, and depth of conviction, that DBS money > should be designed with the **deliberate objective** of being > untraceable, for purposes of law enforcement or taxation. In the case of some DBS advocates you are overstating the matter. In the case of others, vastly understating it. > I have a lot of respect for you guys' intellect but I think > you're wrong on two fundamental points: > > 1. Rule of law. Money laundering is a critical piece in > organized crime. The democratic countries have banking laws. > Do you think these laws should be followed, or NOT? (Scurrying > of feet as all the DBS readers avoid answering.) Well let's examine this. The view that all democratic countries have banking laws really begs the question. "What are the differences between said laws." I can tell you with solid authority, they are many. I've often repeated this story here and elsewhere. It's all a matter of public record. Set the way-back-machine to just after Reagan has entered office. Ole Ron began to crack down on tax evasion and in particular offshore havens. Taxes would be cut, it was reasoned, but only if loopholes were filled and evaders rooted out. (Those of us old enough to remember might even recall nodding at the sense of it). This policy was particular hard on certain Caribbean nations. This was the time of operation Tradewinds (search for it in the congressional record) and other IRS black projects where the IRS actually violated local law to spy on foreign banks even going so far as to drug guards, steal the briefcases of banking executives, perform unwarranted searches, bribe foreign officials and all manner of nonsense to root out tax evaders which might also be U.S. citizens. For a long while there was a project which opened and Xeroxed all the incoming mail at JFK which appeared to originate from offshore havens. This wasn't in the 50's mind you, but the 80s. It was acts like these which prompted the Swiss to strengthen their banking secrecy during the Second World War. Just another day in the park in the U.S. Just recently this year Mexico nearly indicted several U.S. law officials for breaking Mexican law during the investigation of several Mexican banks. Clearly the practice hasn't abated much in the last 15 years.. (Note also that today all these methods (except for drugging guards maybe) have their legal equivalents in the United States, which is in itself a powerful statement). This continued for some time back when Ron was at the helm until the United States finally began to threaten to revoke the U.S. charters of certain banks it considered uncooperative. At this point a visitor, unannounced, flew into D.C. and literally dropped by the White House with no press coverage or fanfare at all in the late evening. That visitor was Margaret Thatcher and she proceeded to explain to Ron over the course of a few hours that if he kept it up many of the British Protectorates would literally have their economies crippled. Literally overnight the matter was dropped and the offshore centers left to quietly continue their business. So much for democratic countries with universal ideas about banking law, or the rule of "law and order" in banking regulation. This is but one example. So: Rule of Law - means little in the global-political scheme of things Democratic Countries Have Banking Laws - none of which are consistent or consistently applied Money Laundering is a Key Piece of Organized Crime - This begs a definition of Money Laundering. "Concealing the proceeds of a criminal act" sounds legitimate, but consider that it has been held to apply to a store clerk who sold food stamps for cash and deposited the proceeds in his personal (non-anonymous) checking account: Indicted in Federal Court for Money Laundering with a maximum possible term of 35 years. (This is a prosecutorial tactic to get a guilty plea to the basic theft charge). Consider also that third parties often take it on the chin with the wide definition currently applied. Case in point: Ma and Pa travel agency innocently accepts a deposit from notorious attorney of drug dealer. Their entire holding account is seized including the deposits of some 700 other potential travelers. After 7 years of fighting the seizure, the money is finally returned, without interest. (Effectively halfing the value of the funds). The business is ruined, its reputation in tatters. Ma and Pa fight it out in bankruptcy, lose their house, most of their retirement proceeds, etc. In the process this case sets the precedent that any amount of illicit funds ($1) deposited in any size account ($500 million) will render the entire account liable to seizure and permit it to be held in lieu of forfeiture hearings. That can go on for 7 years or so. Money which is "laundered" has its title literally revert to the U.S. Treasury. This means third parties who innocently accept these funds are liable for their return, even if they are passed on in the course of business. Beginning to seem silly? Money laundering is an invented offense. It's definition in the United States has grown so broad so as to be laughable, if not so frightening. Do not think that these are isolated incidents. So, money laundering in its commonly understood sense might be key to organized crime, but what passes for money laundering in the United States has little to do with it. Myth: Money Laundering laws have a serious impact on organized crime. This is increasingly nonsense. The United States spends close to $22,000.00 to seize $1.00 of illicit funds. Money Laundering today is extremely sophisticated and enforcement doesn't catch the drug dealers, it catches professional money launderers. Today if you are a drug lord you drop $30 million in cash with a professional launderer who cuts you a "clean" check for 85% of that figure or so on the spot and takes the risk of laundering the funds on his own. Myth: Money Laundering can be detected accurately and effectively and leads to drug and organized crime convictions. Nonsense. Assume for sake of argument that you could detect 99% of fraudulent transactions with the measures in place (entirely impossible) and that your false positive rate was only 1% (also entirely impossible). SWIFT alone processes $2 trillion per day. That's on the order of $600 trillion per year, just in SWIFT. (Add another $1.3 billion for CHIPS and $989 million for Fedwire daily. Oh, don't forget the foreign exchange markets, oh and NYSE, oh and NASDAQ, oh and international letters of credit, oh and...) The most sinister estimates of the global criminal economy (primarily drug money) run around $400 billion per year. Your false positives will identify $6 trillion in naughty funds that are actually pure just in SWIFT. Your correct hits will identify $396 billion in naughty funds in all systems worldwide. In this example you will have 15 times as many false hits as correct hits ignoring the lionshare of world financial systems. This is under the very best of circumstances. It's a losing game.. It's a game only the mathematically challenged or politically motivated will play. In fact, money laundering is a tack on offense that is brought to bear after an arrest on other charges has been made. The number of cases that originate with a money laundering investigation is vanishingly small. The payment system today eats up over 1.5% of the GNP primarily because of nonsense regulations like CTR's and other transaction reporting requirements which can cost up to $15 per transaction and (as we see above) have little if any effect on professional money laundering. Given these numbers the degree of "fraud" in the world financial system is far better than in the credit card system, which has pretty much reached equilibrium. (Fraud accounts for about 5% of credit card costs. Customer service accounts for about 15%). > There is a certain logic in the notion of having a legislative > process and laws. Our laws in the U.S. weren't written by > angels up in heaven, but they are better than some other places. In the case of money laundering regulation I should say almost _no_ other places. > If DBS participants advocate that money laundering laws are > not to be followed, I'm sorry but YOU GUYS have the burden > of logically arguing your position. So shut up and quit > raggin' on *me* about it. I would just like to see them applied with rationality. It's fairly clear that that's too much to ask of the United States. Interestingly enough it's typically multi-party systems of government that have a balanced approach to money laundering. Perhaps this is because grandstanding with things like "the war on drugs" isn't as effective outside of a two party system. Sheds new light on your comment about democracies and banking regulations. Some jurisdictions get along quite well without the nonsense perpetrated in the United States. Like Switzerland. Switzerland has one of the nicest things in a cash economy I have seen. A freely circulated 1000CHF note. It's worth about $750. (The United States phased out $500 bills long ago to deal with laundering). In Switzerland you can drop a 1000CHF note at a restaurant and no one bats an eye. In the U.S. you cant take a cab home from the International Terminal unless you have something smaller than a $50. Somehow Switzerland has manage to survive without looting in the streets and rampant crime. Luxembourg is in a similar situation. I tried to purchase a car some years ago outside of D.C. with cash. Completely legitimate transaction. No interest nonsense for me to worry about. No waiting for the car while the check clears. Simple. Right? The dealership called the police, convinced they were striking a blow against drug dealers. It's really gone too far. > 2. Practicality. Without at least a fig leaf of cooperation > with banking authorities and other police, DBS will not be > permitted. Transactions denominated in DBS won't be enforceable > in courts, and fraud won't be a crime. Reporting fraud in DBS > deal would be like reporting a fraud in purchase of heroin. Practicality? Of course any student of political science will understand that where government enforcement of contracts fails or falls short, organized crime tends to move in. Reporting fraud in the purchase of heroin to the right enforcement cartel tends to be much more effective in rendering results than U.S. courts I'd wager. Clearly, the United States would not benefit by forcing DBS underground. Several jurisdictions will permit DBS and enforce it. (I'm involved in the legislative process for one such law in a European jurisdiction now). If you believe that DBS should be outlawed then you must agree that cash should be outlawed. There is effectively no difference but velocity. > The principal reason for failure of electronic money, other > than cards used in physical establishments, is you can't trust > the seller to send you the goods. That's why everybody is > using credit cards, and bearing the 2-3% charge for "insurance". > > You guys seem to think untraceable DBS will be accepted, if > only a good enough encryption algorithm can be found???? 1% of the GNP. Instant 1% growth for changing a system of clearing. Think about that for awhile. > I think your ideas have a fatal, logical weakness. Without > any practical means to verify who got your money, or even > a legal *right* to enforce a contract, what good is dbs? > It's not even money. It's more like a coupon or something. What you are missing is that all your arguments apply equally to cash. Why is cash used if this is so? Prove to me that you just gave me six $100 bills. You are, "without any practical means to verify who got your money or even a legal *right* to enforce a contract" if the transaction is larger than $500. If only we could be rid of this pesky cash would could eliminate organized crime forever. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From 01143572 at amdiscount.net Sat Nov 14 14:53:29 1998 From: 01143572 at amdiscount.net (01143572 at amdiscount.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:53:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Confidential Scanner Service Message-ID: <> CONFIDENTIAL SCANNING SERVICE First item scanned $5.00. Second item scanned $4.00. Each additional item scanned $3.00 We will scan and send file to your e-mail address within 24 hours after receipt. If you would like your photo returned you must enclose a self addressed and stamped envelope Files should be checked as soon as possible for your satisfaction. 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If you would like your photo returned you must enclose a self addressed and stamped envelope Files should be checked as soon as possible for your satisfaction. All photos received without directions for return will be destroyed after 10 days We accept Master Card ,Visa, Cash or Money Order (no checks) Required Information E-mail address_____________________ Save as _________________File (Gif or JPEG) for the web or (TIF) for artwork. Required information for mature or adult photos I AM 18 YEARS OF AGE OR OVER AND THERE ARE NO PERSONS IN THESE PHOTOS UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE. Signed by:____________________________________________ Required information for credit card MC_____ Visa_____ Card #________________________Expiration_____________ Name of cardholder____________________________________________________ Address _____________________________________________________________ City_______________________________ST_________ZIP________________ Mail form and payment or payment information to: American Discount Services 8515 Douglas Suite 32 Des Moines, IA 50322 For additonal information call 515-270-9651 From scoops at quiknet.com Fri Nov 13 23:54:56 1998 From: scoops at quiknet.com (scoops) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:54:56 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811140726.XAA03250@cyberpass.net> At 12:43 AM 11/14/98 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote in Response to Black Unicorn: >--- begin forwarded text > Scoops response: Mr. Hettinga your comments on the federal abuses on money laundering prosecutions are right on. As an attorney I have seen time and time again the mere *threat* of bringing a money laundering charge enough to make innocent defendants take pleas. We all know that the crime of money laundering was invented to catch mafiosos and other scofflaws. However the gradual broadening of the intent of the statute now just catches ordinary people in the course of either legal or illegal activities that involve a bank -- or other financial institution. A bookkeeper is accused of embezzling $10,000 from his employer and puting the money in his checking account. Lets say he has a reasonable defense to his actions. Was the money laundering statute intended to cover this crime? No. Will a federal prosecutor (or even state) lay on a money laundering charge? Of course. The deal is, if the guy loses, he gets six months on the embezzlement and a *minimum* of five or seven years on money laundering. So you tell me? Does he plead even if he could beat the embezzlement rap? Of course. A quick story. True unfortunately. A guy sells parts for jet planes. Expensive. Usual tab $50,000 to $200,000. One day he sends an invoice for $100,000 instead of $10,000. He's got no reason to immediately notice that it's'wrong. He uses the U.S. mail. That's mail fraud. He asks his secretary to see what she can do. That's conspiracy. He gets fed up and calls the buyer who he thinks is a dead beat. That's wire fraud. In the middle of the mess he changes his bank account from Bank of America to Wells Fargo. That's money laundering. The buyer complains to a U.S. attorney. A grand jury indicts. He's looking at something like 40 years. The man's nearly in a coma that something like this could happen. It's Alice in Wonderland. Naturally, all his money is seized and he can't afford a private attorney and gets a competent but not overly zealous federal public defender. If the man had actually stolen $100,000, with restitution and if it was his first offense, he get maybe a couple years. Maybe probation. But he doesn't even have the money! Naturally, after a few months in a federal detention facility (he can't make bail because the feds have his assets) he starts listening to the other horror stories of other fish caught in the net. He sees what happens to them. You fight and there's a 98% chance that you lose. And if you lose you get the maximum. But if you plead out, we're looking at a slap on the wrist -- say a year or two. In his mind he hasn't committed anything even remotely like a crime and he feels he completely innocent. But he also knows that he's already been in jail for about 1/2 of his sentence. He vows to leave Amerika as soon as he's out. He perjures himself. Admits his guilt under oath. He shows remorse for his crime. The feds drop everything except some offense that he can get a "5 and 5" -- five months in, five months on house arrest (ankle bracelet). He takes a felony hit on his record. He loses all his licenses. He's ordered to pay costs of $50. He's already been in 5 months. He's released the next day after they strap on the bracelet. His life is ruined. His business is dead. He is bankrupt. The feds won't give any of the money back unless he sues them. He's got no money for an attorney. He's done. This is not fiction. This happens hundreds of times a day all over this country. Oh, did I mention the fine? Yeah, it's only $5000. But here's the latest twist in federal jurisprudence. The Assistant U.S. Attorney has been to a new training program to insure compliance with paying fines and restitution. In his plea agreement the new criminal has agreed that in the event he does not pay the fine on schedule, the feds may retry him on ALL the original charges and he waives double jeopardy. Unconstitutional you say. Sure. But that's not what the Supreme Court says. Amerika. Love it or leave it. >> But I simply cannot comprehend the breadth of the agreement >> on this dbs conference, and depth of conviction, that DBS money >> should be designed with the **deliberate objective** of being >> untraceable, for purposes of law enforcement or taxation. > >In the case of some DBS advocates you are overstating the matter. In the >case of others, vastly understating it. > >> I have a lot of respect for you guys' intellect but I think >> you're wrong on two fundamental points: >> >> 1. Rule of law. Money laundering is a critical piece in >> organized crime. The democratic countries have banking laws. >> Do you think these laws should be followed, or NOT? (Scurrying >> of feet as all the DBS readers avoid answering.) > >Well let's examine this. The view that all democratic countries have >banking laws really begs the question. "What are the differences between >said laws." I can tell you with solid authority, they are many. > >I've often repeated this story here and elsewhere. It's all a matter of >public record. > >Set the way-back-machine to just after Reagan has entered office. Ole Ron >began to crack down on tax evasion and in particular offshore havens. >Taxes would be cut, it was reasoned, but only if loopholes were filled and >evaders rooted out. (Those of us old enough to remember might even recall >nodding at the sense of it). > >This policy was particular hard on certain Caribbean nations. This was the >time of operation Tradewinds (search for it in the congressional record) >and other IRS black projects where the IRS actually violated local law to >spy on foreign banks even going so far as to drug guards, steal the >briefcases of banking executives, perform unwarranted searches, bribe >foreign officials and all manner of nonsense to root out tax evaders which >might also be U.S. citizens. For a long while there was a project which >opened and Xeroxed all the incoming mail at JFK which appeared to originate >from offshore havens. This wasn't in the 50's mind you, but the 80s. It >was acts like these which prompted the Swiss to strengthen their banking >secrecy during the Second World War. Just another day in the park in the >U.S. Just recently this year Mexico nearly indicted several U.S. law >officials for breaking Mexican law during the investigation of several >Mexican banks. Clearly the practice hasn't abated much in the last 15 >years.. (Note also that today all these methods (except for drugging >guards maybe) have their legal equivalents in the United States, which is >in itself a powerful statement). This continued for some time back when >Ron was at the helm until the United States finally began to threaten to >revoke the U.S. charters of certain banks it considered uncooperative. At >this point a visitor, unannounced, flew into D.C. and literally dropped by >the White House with no press coverage or fanfare at all in the late >evening. That visitor was Margaret Thatcher and she proceeded to explain >to Ron over the course of a few hours that if he kept it up many of the >British Protectorates would literally have their economies crippled. > >Literally overnight the matter was dropped and the offshore centers left to >quietly continue their business. > >So much for democratic countries with universal ideas about banking law, or >the rule of "law and order" in banking regulation. > >This is but one example. > >So: > >Rule of Law - means little in the global-political scheme of things >Democratic Countries Have Banking Laws - none of which are consistent or >consistently applied > >Money Laundering is a Key Piece of Organized Crime - > >This begs a definition of Money Laundering. "Concealing the proceeds of a >criminal act" sounds legitimate, but consider that it has been held to >apply to a store clerk who sold food stamps for cash and deposited the >proceeds in his personal (non-anonymous) checking account: Indicted in >Federal Court for Money Laundering with a maximum possible term of 35 >years. (This is a prosecutorial tactic to get a guilty plea to the basic >theft charge). Consider also that third parties often take it on the chin >with the wide definition currently applied. Case in point: Ma and Pa >travel agency innocently accepts a deposit from notorious attorney of drug >dealer. Their entire holding account is seized including the deposits of >some 700 other potential travelers. After 7 years of fighting the seizure, >the money is finally returned, without interest. (Effectively halfing the >value of the funds). The business is ruined, its reputation in tatters. >Ma and Pa fight it out in bankruptcy, lose their house, most of their >retirement proceeds, etc. In the process this case sets the precedent that >any amount of illicit funds ($1) deposited in any size account ($500 >million) will render the entire account liable to seizure and permit it to >be held in lieu of forfeiture hearings. That can go on for 7 years or so. >Money which is "laundered" has its title literally revert to the U.S. >Treasury. This means third parties who innocently accept these funds are >liable for their return, even if they are passed on in the course of >business. Beginning to seem silly? Money laundering is an invented >offense. It's definition in the United States has grown so broad so as to >be laughable, if not so frightening. Do not think that these are isolated >incidents. > >So, money laundering in its commonly understood sense might be key to >organized crime, but what passes for money laundering in the United States >has little to do with it. > >Myth: Money Laundering laws have a serious impact on organized crime. > >This is increasingly nonsense. The United States spends close to >$22,000.00 to seize $1.00 of illicit funds. Money Laundering today is >extremely sophisticated and enforcement doesn't catch the drug dealers, it >catches professional money launderers. Today if you are a drug lord you >drop $30 million in cash with a professional launderer who cuts you a >"clean" check for 85% of that figure or so on the spot and takes the risk >of laundering the funds on his own. > >Myth: Money Laundering can be detected accurately and effectively and leads >to drug and organized crime convictions. > >Nonsense. Assume for sake of argument that you could detect 99% of >fraudulent transactions with the measures in place (entirely impossible) >and that your false positive rate was only 1% (also entirely impossible). >SWIFT alone processes $2 trillion per day. That's on the order of $600 >trillion per year, just in SWIFT. (Add another $1.3 billion for CHIPS and >$989 million for Fedwire daily. Oh, don't forget the foreign exchange >markets, oh and NYSE, oh and NASDAQ, oh and international letters of >credit, oh and...) The most sinister estimates of the global criminal >economy (primarily drug money) run around $400 billion per year. Your >false positives will identify $6 trillion in naughty funds that are >actually pure just in SWIFT. Your correct hits will identify $396 billion >in naughty funds in all systems worldwide. In this example you will have >15 times as many false hits as correct hits ignoring the lionshare of world >financial systems. This is under the very best of circumstances. It's a >losing game.. It's a game only the mathematically challenged or >politically motivated will play. In fact, money laundering is a tack on >offense that is brought to bear after an arrest on other charges has been >made. The number of cases that originate with a money laundering >investigation is vanishingly small. > >The payment system today eats up over 1.5% of the GNP primarily because of >nonsense regulations like CTR's and other transaction reporting >requirements which can cost up to $15 per transaction and (as we see above) >have little if any effect on professional money laundering. Given these >numbers the degree of "fraud" in the world financial system is far better >than in the credit card system, which has pretty much reached equilibrium. >(Fraud accounts for about 5% of credit card costs. Customer service >accounts for about 15%). > >> There is a certain logic in the notion of having a legislative >> process and laws. Our laws in the U.S. weren't written by >> angels up in heaven, but they are better than some other places. > >In the case of money laundering regulation I should say almost _no_ other >places. > >> If DBS participants advocate that money laundering laws are >> not to be followed, I'm sorry but YOU GUYS have the burden >> of logically arguing your position. So shut up and quit >> raggin' on *me* about it. > >I would just like to see them applied with rationality. It's fairly clear >that that's too much to ask of the United States. Interestingly enough >it's typically multi-party systems of government that have a balanced >approach to money laundering. Perhaps this is because grandstanding with >things like "the war on drugs" isn't as effective outside of a two party >system. Sheds new light on your comment about democracies and banking >regulations. > >Some jurisdictions get along quite well without the nonsense perpetrated in >the United States. Like Switzerland. Switzerland has one of the nicest >things in a cash economy I have seen. A freely circulated 1000CHF note. >It's worth about $750. (The United States phased out $500 bills long ago >to deal with laundering). In Switzerland you can drop a 1000CHF note at a >restaurant and no one bats an eye. In the U.S. you cant take a cab home >from the International Terminal unless you have something smaller than a >$50. Somehow Switzerland has manage to survive without looting in the >streets and rampant crime. Luxembourg is in a similar situation. > >I tried to purchase a car some years ago outside of D.C. with cash. >Completely legitimate transaction. No interest nonsense for me to worry >about. No waiting for the car while the check clears. Simple. Right? >The dealership called the police, convinced they were striking a blow >against drug dealers. > >It's really gone too far. > >> 2. Practicality. Without at least a fig leaf of cooperation >> with banking authorities and other police, DBS will not be >> permitted. Transactions denominated in DBS won't be enforceable >> in courts, and fraud won't be a crime. Reporting fraud in DBS >> deal would be like reporting a fraud in purchase of heroin. > >Practicality? > >Of course any student of political science will understand that where >government enforcement of contracts fails or falls short, organized crime >tends to move in. Reporting fraud in the purchase of heroin to the right >enforcement cartel tends to be much more effective in rendering results >than U.S. courts I'd wager. Clearly, the United States would not benefit >by forcing DBS underground. Several jurisdictions will permit DBS and >enforce it. (I'm involved in the legislative process for one such law in a >European jurisdiction now). If you believe that DBS should be outlawed >then you must agree that cash should be outlawed. There is effectively no >difference but velocity. > >> The principal reason for failure of electronic money, other >> than cards used in physical establishments, is you can't trust >> the seller to send you the goods. That's why everybody is >> using credit cards, and bearing the 2-3% charge for "insurance". >> >> You guys seem to think untraceable DBS will be accepted, if >> only a good enough encryption algorithm can be found???? > >1% of the GNP. Instant 1% growth for changing a system of clearing. Think >about that for awhile. > >> I think your ideas have a fatal, logical weakness. Without >> any practical means to verify who got your money, or even >> a legal *right* to enforce a contract, what good is dbs? >> It's not even money. It's more like a coupon or something. > >What you are missing is that all your arguments apply equally to cash. Why >is cash used if this is so? Prove to me that you just gave me six $100 >bills. You are, "without any practical means to verify who got your money >or even a legal *right* to enforce a contract" if the transaction is larger >than $500. > >If only we could be rid of this pesky cash would could eliminate organized >crime forever. > >--- end forwarded text > > >----------------- >Robert A. Hettinga >Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 14 00:03:39 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:03:39 +0800 Subject: Fwd: Turtles and Rocks(s) In-Reply-To: <199811131844.NAA01899@cti06.citenet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981113232903.007da2d0@idiom.com> The Libertarian Party of California is on record as being in favor of re-legalizing ferrets, which are not legal pets in California, though officials apparently look the other way while pet stores blatantly aid and abet illegal ferret-possession. Their most recent press release on the subject was titled Release: Ferrets (There is no formal record of the Republican response to this obvious terrorist threat, or whether the Green Party's position was more strongly influenced by animal rights activists who support releasing ferrets or deep ecologists who don't want the non-native wild animals more widely dispersed :-) At 01:43 PM 11/13/98 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: >==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== >>Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 06:37:41 -0500 >>From: Dan MacInnis > >November 12th, 1998 the Toronto Board of Health announces they want to >ban private >owner ship of snakes, turtles, any and all exotic pets. > >Reaction of pet owners was immediate. In this city of just under 3 >Million people, most said they would not abide by the law and hide their >beloved pets. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 14 00:39:15 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:39:15 +0800 Subject: Free Email as Anonymous Remailer Re: NPR is at it again... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111015237.0079f350@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981114002632.007caa30@idiom.com> At 11:47 PM 11/11/98 +0100, Lucky Green wrote: >On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: >> An interesting project would be a free low-volume anonymizer cgi for Apache, >> given the large number of current users and the much larger number >> of people who will run web servers once they have cable modems. >How do you do chaining with a cgi? Looks easy enough to do, if a bit ugly, where "ugly" is somewhat equivalent to "build yet another local proxy widget to hide the gory details", though it's not really much uglier than doing a good anonymizer, and getting details like cookies and Java/script right are harder. Define "encrypted" as "PGP or something like it". It may be possible to gain some efficiencies by using SSL, but not critical. Take a cgi script and use POST to hand it an encrypted block containing: Response-Key: HTTP Request, either vanilla URL or cgi URL with GET or POST data. Maybe some digicash Maybe some additional data The script fetches the URL, handing along any data, packages the response in HTTP reply format, and encrypts it with the response key for the client proxy to unpack. To chain these, have the client nest the requests, doing a URL that points to another anonymizer script and POSTs an encrypted block. Eventually you'll get to a non-anonymizing URL; it may be interesting to include any expected cookies in the block, so the client can hand them to the destination web server, or to gain some efficiencies by having the cgi script fetch any IMG requests, and sending a bundle of HTTP reply packets instead of just a single one. The problems - - How can easily can you break the system? --- Does it leave too many open connections that can be followed? --- Does the decreasing size of the requests and increasing size of responses make it too easy to trace? --- What other obvious security holes are there? - Timeouts or other problems? - Denial of service attacks? Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From vin at shore.net Sat Nov 14 00:49:13 1998 From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:49:13 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent In-Reply-To: <364CC4AF.E30659DA@acm.org> Message-ID: When the always well-informed John Young reported that the US Patent Office had issued MIT Prof. Ron Rivest US Patent 5835600 for a "Block encryption algorithm with data-dependent rotations," Eric Cordian growled: > So we can't use the rotate instruction with a data-dependent shift > count in a block encryption algorithm without a license from Ron? > > Foo on that. Really, Mr. Cordian, you should read a patent before you foo at it. See: http://jya.com/rivest111098.htm This particular patent is probably less than it first appears to be. When a patent is marked as "divisional" of a specific application, it means it has been broken off and separated from a prior patent application. In this case, when Rivest sought a patent for RC5, a block cipher which is notable for the elegant simplicity that has become Ron's trademark style, the Patent Examiner suggested that he refile the application in two parts: one on the encryption method, and a second on the key-schedule structure. The patent on the RC5 encryption method, US5724428 -- which has generally been referred to as the RC5 patent -- was issued March 3, 1998, with the same title ("Block encryption algorithm with data-dependent rotations") and an identical Abstract to this more recent patent, US5835600, which was issued Nov. 10. See: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05724428__&language=en This latest patent, US5835600, only covers the design of the key schedule used in RC5 (and RC6). Period. The data-dependent rotation claims were in the earlier RC5 patent. Even Ron's initial RC5 patent, however, referred to data-dependent rotations only in the context that they are used in RC5. It surely is not any universal IP claim. Among the relevant prior work Rivest cited in his original application (and US5724428) was Wolfram Becker's work for IBM in the 1970s -- patented in US4157454 -- which seems to rely on data-dependent rotations too. Note that the Patent Examiners determined that Becker's work did not impinge upon or otherwise disqualify Rivest's specific RC5 claims. (I wouldn't hazard a guess as to whether RSA's RC5 patent covers IBM's MARS algorithm, as some have suggested, just because MARS also uses data-dependent rotations. Some on this list may be competent to dice the issues that fine but I am not.) Mr. Cordian ventured an additional opinion or two: |>As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of permitting software to be |>patented. Particularly things like RSA for which obvious prior art |>existed.... Eric Michael Cordian is a Persistant Network Nym which has been around for quite a while. It recently caught to eye of some crypto mavens on these lists when Cordian revealed himself as both a pseudonym and a collective identity. E.M. Cordian has been the net persona behind which a group of self-described cryptographic professionals have raised $7,500 in donations to underwrite the "DES Analytic Crack Project," an ambitious effort "to develop ANSI C code which will break DES in under one day on a $5k workstation." See: http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html Now, it seems to me reasonable, albiet academic, to argue whether or not software should be patentable. It is also certainly reasonable to argue whether or not cryptographic algorithms should be patentable. On the other hand, it seems to me unreasonable, willfully ill-informed, and/or malovelent to declare -- in the face of several judicial rulings which have firmly ratified the RSA PKC patent -- that "prior art" exists which should have invalidated that patent. Horseshit! Stanford and Cylink couldn't find it, despite a highly motivated and well-funded search. They doubtless would have paid you handsomely for your evidence and definitive testimony, but you missed your chance. Now you'll -- collectively, Sirs? -- just have to settle for being another cadre in the crowd that hoots and sneers at Ron Rivest whenever he comes up with something new which significantly enhances our cryptographic arsenal (and has the gall to patent it or otherwise claim IP ownership.) Seems like a demeaning role for a group of professionals which claim to collectively have "decades of practical experience in successfully implementing the most complex computer algorithms." Suerte, _Vin PS. Regarding the debate about whether RC6 will be freely available, my understanding (as a consulant to RSA) is that Jim Gillogly has it right. If RC6 is selected as the American AES, RSA (now a subsidary of Security Dynamics) will relinquish all patent rights and royalty expectations. If RC6 is not selected as the AES -- and given the decades of conflict, antagonism, and competition between the spooks of the NSA and RSA, RC6 is surely a remote long shot -- RSA will offer it as a commercial product. The two RC5 patents appear to cover RC6. The AES evaluation process will provide an invaluable high-stress testbed for Rivest's innovative use of data-dependent rotations. When the AES is chosen by the NSA -- whichever algorithm is finally chosen -- the cryptographic community will know a lot more about the security and viability of this particular Rivest design. Then we can start wondering what Rivest will come up with for Ron's Code (RC) 7. ----- Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548 -- <@><@> -- From talon at who.net Sat Nov 14 02:09:07 1998 From: talon at who.net (Jason Burton) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:09:07 +0800 Subject: Privacy and the internet Message-ID: <199811140949.BAA21751@toad.com> Does anyone know what I should do if someone was posting sensitive information on a website? And what if the webmaster of the domain doesnt respond to the request for removal of information. IS there something that say's what is and isn't able to be published "personal information" on the internet. If someone can reply I'd appreciate it. Seeking council. Jason Burton - Starloop Security security at starloop.com From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 14 06:41:07 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:41:07 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:22 AM -0500 on 11/14/98, scoops wrote: > At 12:43 AM 11/14/98 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote in Response to Black > Unicorn: > >--- begin forwarded text Oops. Looks like you weren't watching your >'s :-). You're actually responding to Unicorn, not me. *He* was responding to something Todd Boyle said (well, probably trolled, given his past behavior :-)) on the DBS list. A sad story, though... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Sat Nov 14 07:18:46 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:18:46 +0800 Subject: Will Price (NAI employee) on KRA Message-ID: <199811141455.OAA30151@server.eternity.org> This comment on NAI's KRA(P) membership by Will Price , a crypto type who works for PGP was forwarded to the ukcrypto list by Ian Goodyer (uk-crypto list admin). Not sure where it was posted originally, or perhaps Will asked Ian to forwarded it. Adam ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:43:07 +0000 To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk From: "Ian D. Goodyer" Subject: Re: Escrow - news Here is a response from Will Price who was formally from PGP inc and now of course is with NAI. ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've commented about this on this list before I believe. This appears to be a case of really old news suddenly being dredged up for no apparent wholesome reason -- which strikes me as quite odd because Wired was apparently so eager to break this ancient story that they didn't wait to ask anyone from NAI about it. NAI being listed on the KRA page is *solely* a result of our TIS acquisition. I really doubt anyone here actually called some KRA person and officially renewed our membership. Frankly, I doubt anyone here actually knows who to talk to there -- if there even is a "there". As I have said before, due to the TIS acquisition, NAI now has a bunch of products which contain key escrow features. Eliminating or modifying these features such that they work in a less big brother-like fashion will take significant time -- indeed entire TIS products were based around managing key escrow infrastructures. Don't get me wrong, TIS had a lot of other great products, but it will take time to redesign and rethink some of them in the context of export and key escrow. I'm not sure there's much point in withdrawing from KRA when those products still exist. These issues have no effect whatsoever on the PGP group. As always, we continue to publish full source code which effectively solves all the export issues for us. Robert Guerra wrote: > I just picked this up from another mailing list that I am on. Perhaps the > folks at NAI can clarify things? > > - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:55:06 +0000 > From: Ross Anderson > Reply-To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk > To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk > Subject: Escrow - news > > (1) Network Associates has quietly rejoined the Key Recovery Alliance > - - see http://www.kra.org. - -- Will -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0.2 iQA/AwUBNkySo6y7FkvPc+xMEQIuygCfYosXGISVrKd4dYWwM8xOrVdd4WAAn3dT XvDG6FMapZpjmvjucF67fwM5 =xa+R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Will Price, Architect/Sr. Mgr., PGP Client Products Total Network Security Division Network Associates, Inc. Direct (408)346-5906 Cell/VM (650)533-0399 PGPkey: ------- End of forwarded message ------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 14 08:00:14 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 00:00:14 +0800 Subject: Privacy and the internet (fwd) Message-ID: <199811141538.JAA03813@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 04:46:03 -0500 > From: Jason Burton > Subject: Privacy and the internet > > Seeking council. > That's exactly what you should do, get a lawyer. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at wire.insync.net Sat Nov 14 09:07:17 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 01:07:17 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811141648.KAA27226@wire.insync.net> Vin writes: > On the other hand, it seems to me unreasonable, willfully ill-informed, > and/or malovelent to declare -- in the face of several judicial rulings > which have firmly ratified the RSA PKC patent -- that "prior art" exists > which should have invalidated that patent. Horseshit! Judicial rulings notwithstanding, a description of that which is now known as RSA Public Key Cryptography was published in a book of algorithms which pre-dated by quite a few years its patenting and commercial promotion by the current patent holders. That exponentiation modulo the product of two distinct odd primes was not easily reversable given knowlege of the modulus and the exponent was hardly a closely guarded mathematical secret, even decades before this fact was employed by cryptographers. All of this was extensively discussed here on Cypherpunks back when disputes over the RSA patent were newsworthy, and I suggest you grep the archives for more specifics. My point was that the US is one of the few countries to permit the patenting of abstract mathematics, albeit it under the guise of some practical "method and apparatus" jargon. The fact that the patent couldn't be successfully challenged even though its mathematical underpinnings were well known years prior reflects badly only upon the notion of mathematical patents, and hardly refutes the facts in evidence. > Stanford and Cylink couldn't find it, despite a highly motivated and > well-funded search. They doubtless would have paid you handsomely for > your evidence and definitive testimony, but you missed your chance. Again, (patent not invalidated) != (no prior art) But then, I'm sure you knew that. > Now you'll -- collectively, Sirs? -- just have to settle for being > another cadre in the crowd that hoots and sneers at Ron Rivest whenever > he comes up with something new which significantly enhances our > cryptographic arsenal (and has the gall to patent it or otherwise claim > IP ownership.) One "foo on that" at the notion of patenting mathematics in general, and of patenting ciphers employing data dependent rotates in particular, hardly constitutes hooting and sneering directed at Ron Rivest, whose work is greatly respected in the cryptographic community. But then, I'm sure you knew that too. I'm also pleased to report that the DES Analytic Crack Project is plodding along towards its goal of an algebraic inverse to DES. While the project will generate $10k in sponsorship money when fully subscribed, we have started it off with a much smaller number of sponsors, as quite a few potential sponsors have indicated an interest in seeing some preliminary research results prior to remitting funds. Since we are not hurting for funds at the moment, we have decided to devote 100% of our effort to the project at this time, and will probably not have a further "pledge break" until 8-round DES bites the dust. Then we will try to get the project fully subscribed, do the 16-round crack, and write up the final report. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From stuffed at stuffed.net Sun Nov 15 01:13:57 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED SUN NOV 15) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 01:13:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981115081000.10264.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + HARDCORE SEX WITH ZOOM + MY BUTT COLLECTION + ABSOLUTE XXX + CATIJANA'S PUSSY PICS + EXCESSIVE + SEX CARNIVAL + WAANAADOOUS + DILDO MANIA + A1 HARDCORE + TITS 4 FREE + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/20453.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/4919.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/1906.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/5819.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/1663.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From garp at chadmarc.com Sat Nov 14 10:06:54 1998 From: garp at chadmarc.com (garp at chadmarc.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 02:06:54 +0800 Subject: Welcome to the Risk Professionals Discussion Area! Message-ID: <199811141736.MAA00113@ns.bccg.com> Thank you for participating in our conferencing system, John. Please save this message. It contains important information, such as your login name and password (see below). Our web conferencing offers online Help for all major features. If you have questions about a feature, look for the help button on the menubar. Here is your login information. Be sure to keep it somewhere safe! Your Login Name: cypherpunks Your Password: cypherpunks You can change your password, email address, and other items by selecting "Profiles" from the "More" button on the menubar. Please be sure to come back and visit us at: http://chat.bccg.com:8080/~GARP We hope you enjoy participating in our conferences! Sincerely, garp at chadmarc.com From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 14 10:20:42 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 02:20:42 +0800 Subject: Will Price (NAI employee) on KRA In-Reply-To: <199811141455.OAA30151@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <199811141804.NAA20445@camel7.mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:57:53 -0800 (PST) : To: jya at pipeline.com From: prz at pgp.com (Philip Zimmermann (via an auto-responder)) Subject: Got your message : Thanks for your message. Sometimes it takes a day or two to get through all my email. I will get back to you, or have someone from our company get back to you, as quickly as I can. Thanks for your patience. If you need to speak with someone immediately, please call our corporate offices at 408 988-3832 [called, got voicemail: closed until Monday.]. If you need to contact me by phone, see the contact information on my web page at http://www.pgp.com/phil. In December 1997 my company, Pretty Good Privacy Inc, was acquired by McAfee Associates, which is now known as Network Associates [ref. kra.org]. If you haven't seen it already, you should take a look at the latest version of PGP, version 6, available in both commercial and freeware forms, for Windows and Mac, available for Web downloading from our company's web site at http://www.pgp.com. The best site with the best all-around information about PGP, including frequently asked questions, is http://www.pgpi.com, which is in Norway. They have information on where to get PGP if you live outside of the US or Canada, for commercial or freeware use. They also provide pointers into our own domestic web site here to help you easily find where to get the latest versions of PGP in the US, for business or freeware. They also tell you how to download the PGP source code for peer review, and where to get the Unix versions. You can also download PGPfone from there. -Philip Zimmermann From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 14 10:27:13 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 02:27:13 +0800 Subject: Will Price (NAI employee) on KRA In-Reply-To: <199811141455.OAA30151@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <199811141757.MAA12938@camel7.mindspring.com> Forwarded: To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk Subject: Re: Escrow - news Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:42:26 +0000 From: Ross Anderson : Will Price writes: > NAI being listed on the KRA page is *solely* a result of our TIS > acquisition On his most recent speaking tour of Europe, at which he promoted PGP v 6, Phil Zimmermann assured us categorically that NAI had at his insistence withdrawn from the KRA. It now appears that either (1) he lied to us (2) he was himself lied to by NAI management or (3) NAI has rejoined. > I really doubt anyone here actually called some KRA person and > officially renewed our membership. Frankly, I doubt anyone > here actually knows who to talk to there -- if there even is a > "there". You marketed version 6 of your product on the back of a claim that you'd left the KRA. Yet NAI is now listed on the KRA website as a member, and this is clearly doing your product material harm. Either it's not true that you're a member, in which case your lawyers will be able to extract so much money from KRA that it goes out of business, whereupon the world will cheer and buy your product, or it is true, in which case the damage will continue. There is a deeper issue for the community here. For many years we have tended to trust products because we know the technical people involved. This has been the foundation for trust of other kinds. For example, some years ago, a certain country's foreign ministry asked me for a reference on Entrust prior to buying their products; my response was that I knew both Paul van Oorschot and Mike Wiener, and in my opinion they were both very competent. As a result of this, purchasing decisions may have been taken with a significant effect on national intelligence, economic competitiveness and even military preparedness. As the country in question is a NATO member, its diplomatic comsec (or lack of it) affects the UK directly. Now, in one weekend, we have two cases where assurances from credible technical people turned out to be unsatisfactory. Where does that leave us? Since I gave that reference for Entrust, the University here has tightened up on liability. We must take care not to give references that are untruthful or even misleading. We are urged to err on the side of caution. So next time a foreign ministry asks me whether Entrust products are kosher, I probably have to reply: `You cannot prudently trust any third party to sell you trustworthy comsec products. Recall Britain's selling old Enigmas to allies in the Commonwealth; think of the fuss over red-threading; check out the trapdoor in Sesame; and read up on key escrow. The only way you can get good kit is if you build it yourself. If you don't have the skills, then I suggest you get some bright graduates to check out our PhD programme - see ' A very traditional view of the world. Has nothing really changed since the 1960's? Ross ---------- Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:55:45 GMT Message-Id: <199811141455.OAA30151 at server.eternity.org> From: Adam Back To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Will Price (NAI employee) on KRA This comment on NAI's KRA(P) membership by Will Price , a crypto type who works for PGP was forwarded to the ukcrypto list by Ian Goodyer (uk-crypto list admin). Not sure where it was posted originally, or perhaps Will asked Ian to forwarded it. Adam ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:43:07 +0000 To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk From: "Ian D. Goodyer" Subject: Re: Escrow - news Here is a response from Will Price who was formally from PGP inc and now of course is with NAI. ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've commented about this on this list before I believe. This appears to be a case of really old news suddenly being dredged up for no apparent wholesome reason -- which strikes me as quite odd because Wired was apparently so eager to break this ancient story that they didn't wait to ask anyone from NAI about it. NAI being listed on the KRA page is *solely* a result of our TIS acquisition. I really doubt anyone here actually called some KRA person and officially renewed our membership. Frankly, I doubt anyone here actually knows who to talk to there -- if there even is a "there". As I have said before, due to the TIS acquisition, NAI now has a bunch of products which contain key escrow features. Eliminating or modifying these features such that they work in a less big brother-like fashion will take significant time -- indeed entire TIS products were based around managing key escrow infrastructures. Don't get me wrong, TIS had a lot of other great products, but it will take time to redesign and rethink some of them in the context of export and key escrow. I'm not sure there's much point in withdrawing from KRA when those products still exist. These issues have no effect whatsoever on the PGP group. As always, we continue to publish full source code which effectively solves all the export issues for us. Robert Guerra wrote: > I just picked this up from another mailing list that I am on. Perhaps the > folks at NAI can clarify things? > > - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:55:06 +0000 > From: Ross Anderson > To: ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk > Subject: Escrow - news > > (1) Network Associates has quietly rejoined the Key Recovery Alliance > - - see http://www.kra.org. - -- Will -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0.2 iQA/AwUBNkySo6y7FkvPc+xMEQIuygCfYosXGISVrKd4dYWwM8xOrVdd4WAAn3dT XvDG6FMapZpjmvjucF67fwM5 =xa+R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Will Price, Architect/Sr. Mgr., PGP Client Products Total Network Security Division Network Associates, Inc. Direct (408)346-5906 Cell/VM (650)533-0399 PGPkey: ------- End of forwarded message ------- From apf2 at apf2.com Sat Nov 14 11:21:12 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 03:21:12 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: <199811131959.LAA19533@rainbow.thinkthink.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981114194714.0093bd00@apf2.com> Nobody that has been on this list very long could have been duped...We all know that some group of MIB types would have swooped down on the guy, and he would have been just another heart attack statistic... At 14:49 13/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >I was not duped! In fact, I pointed the hoax out. > >Anyway, I feel for you/. > >igor > >cypherpu wrote: >> >> >> >> I just spoke by phone with john(author of the article in question) >> at the sfbay guardian >> The article was distributed without the satire labeling that was >> present at the website... The article is Satire :( >> >> duped and disappointed :( >> > > > > - Igor. > From tboyle at rosehill.net Sat Nov 14 11:49:00 1998 From: tboyle at rosehill.net (Todd Boyle) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 03:49:00 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001be1005$2f0dff80$0100a8c0@P180.Workgroup> >Oops. Looks like you weren't watching your >'s :-). You're actually >responding to Unicorn, not me. *He* was responding to something Todd Boyle >said (well, probably trolled, given his past behavior :-)) on the DBS list. I don't altogether enjoy living in the world I've created. My intent in posting my ideas is so that they'll either be verified, or be neutralized or corrected by enzymes on your excellent list! But I'm still stuck on these points: * Thieves exist in large numbers, throughout the world including my own immediate area. Many more potential thieves in line, behind them. * If thieves could hide the money they stole, there would be substantial increase in frequency and severity of theft; mostly fraud, employee embezzlement, and white collar theft but also blatant scams and grift that is impractical today. We're already seeing annual increases in embezzlement in the Seattle area from 10-50% over the last 10 years, getting similar to the rates around Los Angeles, for example. * Reducing trackability of money increases the severity and frequency of collusive crimes. Large-scale political corruption, kickbacks and monopolies in the commercial sector, and a whole range of outright criminal blackmail become harder to prosecute. With DBS you wouldn't be able to prove a damned thing. * The biggest single financial problem I have is mandatory levies (tax, utilities, monopolies) by the corrupt government. Your DBS will make this much worse by making it even easier to channel cash to politicians. * Fraud, embezzlement and corruption are in riotous equilibrium. DBS reduces pressure on laundering, requiring other measures that hit my civil liberties somewhere else (physical IDs, cops, etc.) * Untraceable money *obviously* reduces tax collections. What the IRS fails to collect from tax dodgers, eventually, I must pay more. You seem to have a subconscious belief that DBS will shrink the government sector. This is a false assumption. The government long ago achieved the power to tax *as much as it wants*. There is no natural immunity in our culture or legal system. The public sector has stabilized at 25% or 35% of the GNP, which is apparently the maximum the animal can tolerate without falling over dead (people striking, quitting work, and business moving overseas.) Gimmicks like DBS will certainly not reduce the public sector in our lifetimes. It will require an evolution in individual awareness and behavior. In mean time, managing the out-of-control government sector is your civic duty, to your less intelligent wives, pensioners, and children and neighbors. The preferred way to manage the governmt is the democratic process, and public discourse and debate such as this list. Breaking ranks and disobeying the law breeds further breakdown in obedience of the whole legal framework. There are lots of dumber and more dangerous elements in the population. The system is already *quite* unfair to them. When the superintelligent can steal through high-tech money schemes, and the wealthy classes violate their own legal framework, why shouldn't the thief just come and steal our cars, or fuck your daughter? Frankly, we need laws, a lot more than we need DBS. Now, what is your solution to prevent the use of DBS in large-scale financial fraud, political payoffs, etc.? Or is that outside your scope, and such problems should be solved by wiretaps, surveillance or what? Don't tell me these problems are minor or will just disappear! Do you know how much money is already wasted on audits and law enforcement in this country? Auditing is already hideously expensive, and the only solid facts in the entire audit process are the goddamn bank statements. You need a coherent argument on this problem. You need measures within the DBS technology itself, to address the need. Opponents of DBS will raise all these demagogic arguments. You'll be hooted off the podium. I fear you'll end up damaging the reputation of legitimate forms of peer-to-peer electronic payments, which are badly needed in the economy. Todd Boyle CPA Kirkland WA tboyle at rosehill.net From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 14 12:01:31 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 04:01:31 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811110052.SAA21018@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981114005026.007cb920@idiom.com> At 12:18 PM 11/11/98 -0500, Petro or other people wrote: > Sub-contracting can often lead to cost savings. For instance, >instead of each insurer having their own fire station network, they could >all share one, and only pay a certain cost-per-subscriber. Government subcontracting can be yet another excuse for graft and kickbacks or it can be an opportunity for the private sector to seriously compete for government business, or at least an opportunity to compete for graft :-) Sometimes this can save money for the public, though seldom as much as letting services be provided by the private sector. >>> Looking different is not illegal. What's that, white boy? >>> Thinking different is not illegal. Always has been, anywhere, any time.... > Listen Fuckwad: > (1) there are paved roads from one coast to the other, as well as >railways. > (3) Most of the roads being built with federal funds are for >"congestion relief", not roads to new places so troops can move. Of course they are, and everybody's pretty much known it all along, but "defense" was the excuse used for having the Feds get into the road-building business on a much more massive scale than ever before. Much of it corresponded nicely with "urban renewal", the 60s policy of making cities more beautiful by replacing black peoples' houses with freeways. Once (white) people got used to freeways, they mostly stopped complaining about expenditures, and started complaining that they didn't have _their_ freeway yet. > The Army. Marines, and National Guard are fully capable of getting >whereever they need to go with our without the current highway system, if >they weren't they'd be worthless. No, but the industrial base that keeps the military functioning does benefit from the highway system. > (2) There hasn't been a war fought on CONUS since we attacked Mexico. Excuse me? Are you talking about some recent attack on Mexico, or are you referring to the Mexican War of 1846? Or are you contending that the Confederate States weren't part of the Contiguous United States, and therefore the Union's ReConquest of the South wasn't in CONUS? Or that the Indian wars in the west weren't wars, just Police Actions, or that the various ex-Mexican territories weren't States yet, and thus not CONUS? Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 14 12:34:49 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 04:34:49 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:55:00 -0400 To: tboyle at rosehill.net Cc: dbs at philodox.com Subject: Re: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Ryan Lackey Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ Also Sprach Todd Boyle (tboyle at rosehill.net): > > * If thieves could hide the money they stole, there would be substantial > increase in frequency and severity of theft; I think this is definitely true. Particularly if it is *easy* to hide the money stolen, as criminals may be expert in a particular field of crime that is *not* financial -- it's already easy for a white-collar criminal to hide money, using the same skills used in white-collar crimes of other sorts, but not so easy for an armed robber. > * Reducing trackability of money increases the severity and frequency > of collusive crimes. Reducing trackability and improving the velocity of money *does* do this, but it's a side effect of the more important (and wider spread) effect of useful forms of money: increasing the severity and frequency of all kinds of collusion and cooperation! This is what money is for -- exchange. That criminal exchange uses DBS is just saying that criminal exchange is a form of exchange. > > In mean time, managing the out-of-control government sector is your civic > duty, to your less intelligent wives, Heh...I'd be afraid of saying this if I were married or ever planning to be :) On an archived list, no less... :) > > You need a coherent argument on this problem. You need measures within > the DBS technology itself, to address the need. Opponents of DBS will > raise all these demagogic arguments. You'll be hooted off the podium. This technology is layered (ooh, bad word to use in relation to money and payment systems :). I think you will agree with me that the correct place for financial restraints (particularly voluntary ones, for auditing purposes, which IMO are the most important -- it allows you to say you are doing something, specify how it can be measured, and then have it measured, rather than just having some vague after-the-fact threat of enforcement if they catch you) on digital token money is not at the following layers: * Sub-atomic layer * Atomic layer * Hardware layer * Network connection layer and you seem to be making the case that it doesn't belong at the human/legal layer. However, there are two layers in the middle: * application (core DBS protocols, etc.) and * presentation (graphical clients, etc.) I believe the correct place for any voluntary restraints on DBS money is not at the DBS protocol layer, but at a higher level. This can be built into the clients people choose to use for managing their money, generate auditing reports, etc. This provides people with the freedom to use clients tailored to their legal requirements -- a corporation's internal financial system should be far more complicated and constrained than my personal wallet -- and makes it relatively easy for everything to interoperate. You can even design things at the levels higher than the DBS level to escrow parts of coins with third parties, this requiring their participation or approval for any transaction -- sort of a "registered DBS system". If you believe taxes are a worthwhile thing, a government could mandage the use of such a system where the IRS was a party to each and every transaction. This would work perfectly well technically, and would not compromise the integrity of the protocols -- it's just a business decision on the part of an issuer of electronic cash. It's easy to see how this could work with insurance schemes, split control of coins, etc. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 14 12:34:55 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 04:34:55 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From: "Michael Alexander" To: Subject: Re: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:52:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Michael Alexander" >From: "Black Unicorn" > That's on the order of $600 >trillion per year, just in SWIFT. (Add another $1.3 billion for CHIPS and >$989 million for Fedwire daily. Oh, don't forget the foreign exchange as a minor correction, SWIFT 's main service is to exchange payment messages to feed into e.g. Fedwire or CHIPS so that would be double counting >The payment system today eats up over 1.5% of the GNP primarily because of >nonsense regulations like CTR's and other transaction reporting ... >1% of the GNP. Instant 1% growth for changing a system of clearing. Think >about that for awhile. slowly on that: payment systems costs represent what economists call 'specific taxes' that is they inflict deadweight losses on the economy. More efficient payment instruments such as some being based on bearer certificates would per se lower GDP but lead to higher demand in theory. Its effect would be as instant as a cut in other broad ones such as income or capital gains that is it involves lag. On the actual percentage of payment systems costs as % of GDP my estimates are way higher. By simply taking clearing float days of the major retail, business and interbank instruments, the figure is more like >2% with current (low) interest for the U.S. and even higher for Europe. This does not take into account that a more efficient payment system with a higher money velocity would lower the demand for transaction money among other effects. Michael For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help". --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Nov 14 13:11:46 1998 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 05:11:46 +0800 Subject: DBS, Privacy, Money Laundering nonsense. In-Reply-To: <000001be1005$2f0dff80$0100a8c0@P180.Workgroup> Message-ID: <001001be1010$5fda8470$1c86e5cf@svb.schloss.li> > >Oops. Looks like you weren't watching your >'s :-). You're actually > >responding to Unicorn, not me. *He* was responding to something > Todd Boyle > >said (well, probably trolled, given his past behavior :-)) on > the DBS list. > > I don't altogether enjoy living in the world I've created. My > intent in posting my ideas is so that they'll either be verified, > or be neutralized or corrected by enzymes on your excellent list! > > But I'm still stuck on these points: Ok let's work on them: > * Thieves exist in large numbers, throughout the world including my > own immediate area. Many more potential thieves in line, > behind them. > > * If thieves could hide the money they stole, there would be substantial > increase in frequency and severity of theft; mostly fraud, employee > embezzlement, and white collar theft but also blatant scams and > grift that is impractical today. You miss the point entirely. Thieves CAN hide the money they stole today. It's not even particularly hard. See my previous post for an idea of how hard it is to detect a thief hiding his money. >We're already seeing annual > increases > in embezzlement in the Seattle area from 10-50% over the last > 10 years, > getting similar to the rates around Los Angeles, for example. And so...? Classic logical flaw. After the fact, therefore because of the fact. High tech is available now that wasn't before The rate of embezzlement is higher therefore high tech is to blame. Clearly, therefore: Merlyn waved his hands the moon passed before the sun therefore Merlyn caused the moon to pass before the sun. I'll wager the percentage of embezzlement in your area has increased in rough proportion to the growth of the local economy. Check for me and get back to us. > * Reducing trackability of money increases the severity and frequency > of collusive crimes. Large-scale political corruption, kickbacks > and monopolies in the commercial sector, and a whole range of > outright criminal blackmail become harder to prosecute. With > DBS you wouldn't be able to prove a damned thing. You could hardly reduce the trackability of money anymore today. A 500 million dollar fraud transferred through the world financial system hides in about 20 trillion in funds which move every day. That FinCEN actually can detect crime via its network is a fantasy. I've just been over the math which demonstrates how difficult a task it really is. Review it. Crimes are discovered and caught by good police work. The fact that the constitution makes "good police work" that much harder is a price to live with in a free society. Choose your poison. Clearly technologies like wiretaps and funds tracking are sold as investigatory tactics which result in new cases being brought, but (at least in the case of money laundering) this just isn't the case. It's simply not supported by the numbers. What you don't hear today is how many cases get dropped because of lack of evidence with plain ole banking today. It's painfully easy to make money vanish. Given that a police state has the lowest incidence of crime you need to make a fundamental decision about what kind of world you want to live in. A story for your consideration in the meantime: The AIDS rate in Cuba is a fraction of the AIDS rate in the rest of the world. This despite the fact that prostitution is rampant, and Cuba is a third (even fourth) world country. Why is this so? Because Castro ordered all HIV+ citizens into HIV camps and isolated them from the rest of the population immediately, like "civilized" countries used to do with Scarlet and Yellow fever before people infected with a life threatening disease became a minority group worthy of political protection. So is it worth the price? Perhaps you view the threat of DBS as so significant that it requires dramatic, even draconian measures to prevent its adoption. Unfortunately, you have painted yourself into a corner because DBS and cash are identical except with respect to medium of exchange. > * The biggest single financial problem I have is mandatory levies > (tax, utilities, monopolies) by the corrupt government. Your > DBS will make this much worse by making it even easier to > channel cash to politicians. Then, by your argument, we should ban Cash as well. What if I told you that a new technology would allow armed robbers unprecedented mobility, the ability to escape the scene of a crime in an instant, and provided them with the ability to traverse long distances in making their escape while protected from scrutiny. What if this same technology gave them the means to conceal from the view of any law enforcement the proceeds of their heist and could make their path entirely untraceable to police? Well, I suppose automobiles are going to have to go. > * Fraud, embezzlement and corruption are in riotous equilibrium. DBS > reduces pressure on laundering, requiring other measures that hit > my civil liberties somewhere else (physical IDs, cops, etc.) Again, there is no pressure on laundering today. It's a trivial exercise. Money laundering regulation has bred a cadre of professional launderers. Even by the best numbers the authorities seize less than 0.006% of illicit funds and spend 20000 times what they seize to seize it. > * Untraceable money *obviously* reduces tax collections. What the IRS > fails to collect from tax dodgers, eventually, I must pay more. Vote with your feet. (I don't really agree with this assessment, but regardless, if you believe it, reduce your tax burden by expatriating). Again, taxes in countries with less financial regulation (almost all of the non-U.S. countries) are typically less, if not substantially less than in the U.S. How do you explain this if your point is true? > You seem to have a subconscious belief that DBS will shrink the government > sector. This is a false assumption. The government long ago achieved the > power to tax *as much as it wants*. There is no natural immunity in our > culture or legal system. Again, then move. I don't really care what DBS does to the government sector. I only care what it does to the costs of transactions. I handle the political and regulatory issues by moving. (You might take John Walker's example. He bailed primarily to avoid the "bullshit factor" not the tax). > The public sector has stabilized at 25% or 35% of the GNP, which is > apparently the maximum the animal can tolerate without falling over dead > (people striking, quitting work, and business moving overseas.) Uh, all those conditions are present today. > Gimmicks like DBS will certainly not reduce the public sector in our > lifetimes. It will require an evolution in individual awareness and > behavior. Again, see above. > In mean time, managing the out-of-control government sector is your civic > duty, to your less intelligent wives, pensioners, and children and > neighbors. The preferred way to manage the governmt is the democratic > process, and public discourse and debate such as this list. Again, vote with your feet. I'm too busy for civil disobedience, voting in sham elections, and the two party system. Grass roots political activism changes nothing in my experience. Even if it did, I still just don't have the time. I prefer supporting political processes that are forward looking and interested in DBS. These do exist. > Breaking ranks and disobeying the law breeds further breakdown in > obedience of the whole legal framework. Which laws? Those of the United States? Well get cracking, the U.S. has 195 countries to invade, overthrow and pacify to harmonize foreign ideas about how things should be done with the much more enlightened and effective crime preventing methods prevailing in the United States today. Stop laughing, the integrity of the whole legal framework is at stake. Actually, after some reflection I think that you're right. Now if only we could get all those blacks back in line we could get some real law and order done. How did we allow their civil disobedience to gain them anything? Are we going to _reward_ that kind of behavior? It's a threat to the entire system. Now where did I put my sheets? > There are lots of dumber and more > dangerous elements in the population. The system is already *quite* > unfair to them. When the superintelligent can steal through high-tech > money schemes, and the wealthy classes violate their own legal framework, > why shouldn't the thief just come and steal our cars, or fuck > your daughter? I see. So DBS is going to be responsible for an increase in property and violent crimes? DBS will cause the poor to rise up because "Da Man" has more power now? Of course this is silliness of the highest degree. The tendency to overstate the power of DBS in here seems to be an affliction of both sides now. It's a technology, not a way of life. Get over it. > Frankly, we need laws, a lot more than we need DBS. I won't even comment on the need for yet more regulation other than to say that healthcare in e.g. Switzerland is a fraction of the cost of health care in e.g. the United States because physicians don't have to carry $10 million dollars in liability insurance. > Now, what is your solution to prevent the use of DBS in large-scale > financial fraud, political payoffs, etc.? Or is that outside your > scope, and such problems should be solved by wiretaps, surveillance or > what? What's your solution to prevent the use of cash and international wire transfers in large-scale financial fraud, political payoffs, etc.? Or is that outside your scope? > Don't tell me these problems are minor or will just disappear! I'm telling you they already exist. What are you going to do about it? You're an accountant. You should have answers for these things. > Do you > know how much money is already wasted on audits and law enforcement in > this country? Auditing is already hideously expensive, and the only > solid facts in the entire audit process are the goddamn bank statements. I think you might find that the cost of auditing is directly linked to the likelihood of a civil suit against the auditors in the United States. Address tort reform if you want to impact that. You're a CPA, get cracking. These aren't issues that are specific to DBS, they are endemic to the current system > You need a coherent argument on this problem. You need measures within > the DBS technology itself, to address the need. Opponents of DBS will > raise all these demagogic arguments. You'll be hooted off the podium. In the U.S. perhaps. I'm not a resident there anymore so I could care less. Any DBS system can be made to comply with country laws based on internet address location or the front end dealer's compliance requirements. The underwriter in the system passes the responsibility for compliance to the local issuer, which is as it should be. What's the big deal? You think a global system has to comply with the highest level of regulation of any of the participating actors...? Of course that's nonsense. The United States, much as it might like to be, is not the final authority on world financial regulation and is unlikely to be any time in the near future (thank god). Opponents of DBS may raise all these arguments but they, and you, still have not addressed the basic point that all these things are already possible with cash. Will they ban cash, and if so when and by what means? > I fear you'll end up damaging the reputation of legitimate forms of > peer-to-peer electronic payments, which are badly needed in the economy. I'm unconcerned about "legitimate forms of peer-to-peer electronic payments" because I am unaware of any. Even mondex isn't truly peer to peer. The silliness quotient of this discussion exceeded my tolerance level after the "evils of civil disobedience" discussion. (I also don't read cypherpunks anymore so I won't see replies not copied to me personally). From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Sat Nov 14 16:06:29 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:06:29 +0800 Subject: TIS & PGP -- who is pulling the strings (Re: Will Price (NAI employee) on KRA) In-Reply-To: <199811141455.OAA30151@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <199811142333.XAA32197@server.eternity.org> To comment on Will Price's comments I forwarded earlier today: Will Price wrote: > I've commented about this on this list before I believe. This appears > to be a case of really old news suddenly being dredged up for no > apparent wholesome reason -- which strikes me as quite odd because > Wired was apparently so eager to break this ancient story that they > didn't wait to ask anyone from NAI about it. I didn't heard anything other than speculation as to whether the TIS acquisition would result in NAI rejoining KRA. The news is that it now is listed again (or at least someone noticed that it is now listed). Perhaps I was not paying attention, but I didn't hear anyone from PGP announce that NAI had rejoined (or automatically rejoined) KRA as a result of TIS merger. > NAI being listed on the KRA page is *solely* a result of our TIS > acquisition. I really doubt anyone here actually called some KRA > person and officially renewed our membership. Frankly, I doubt anyone > here actually knows who to talk to there -- if there even is a > "there". Surely some of your TIS GAKware colleagues know all about KRAP -- being major league GAKkers, and having specifically signed up in the first place, being leading contributers to the KRAP/GAK drive effort. > As I have said before, due to the TIS acquisition, NAI now has a > bunch of products which contain key escrow features. Watch terminology here. TIS stuff contains GAK -- "key escrow" or "message recovery" where the government has the master keys. All commercial PGP versions 5.x and higher contain key recovery in the form of PGP's "Corporate Message Recovery" (CMR) design. Even the personal use versions know how to cooperate in providing corporate backdoors. Now CMR is clearly much less objectionable than TIS stuff, tho' politically debatable I would argue. TIS stuff is outright GAK. But I think part of the point of KRA was to coerce/bribe crypto companies to demonstrate working and workable NSA master key type GAK. The problem people have had with PGP building a CMR / CKE mechanism is you as a side effect demonstrate a method which would be workable as an NSA master key GAK system. Clearly all that is missing is software configuration and the NSA to publish a key, and a law requiring use of it. Yeah, OK so there was always encrypt to self, but giving the NSA ammunition is bad (viz the quotes from US government saying that Key Recovery works and using PGP 5.x as an example). I think that helping the US government claim that GAK is workable is a bad result for a company with PGP's privacy stance to end up contributing to. I am glad that CMR was kept out of the OpenPGP spec. > Eliminating or modifying these features such that they work in a > less big brother-like fashion will take significant time -- indeed > entire TIS products were based around managing key escrow > infrastructures. Don't get me wrong, TIS had a lot of other great > products, but it will take time to redesign and rethink some of them > in the context of export and key escrow. Will seems to be saying here that NAI is planning to remove GAK from the TIS products acquired in the NAI purchase of TIS. Firstly this is interesting because I wonder who is pulling the strings inside NAI -- consider: NAI paid a lot more for TIS than they paid for PGP. TIS has lots of US government defense contracts (presumably partly as bribery for assistance to US Government with KRAP/the GAK drive). Secondly he comments that it will take significant time to make the TIS products less big brother like. I don't buy this. You've got the source code -- just release a patch to fill the GAK field with garbage. Sounds like a days work tops. > I'm not sure there's much point in withdrawing from KRA when those > products still exist. Sure there is. The bad PR of being in KRAP alone should make it worth quiting. This was why PRZ arranged the pull out last time around. Secondly pulling out of KRA would be a nice way to back up your claims that NAI intends to remove the GAK from the bought TIS products. If NAI intends to do this, what is the point of being a member of KRA which is all about acheiving the reverse -- about putting GAK into products. > These issues have no effect whatsoever on the PGP group. Glad to hear it. The effect it does have is in reputation damage due to PR fall out. Some people may prefer not to buy from a company supporting the US government in it's attempts to force key escrow onto users. NAI is pulling in two directions, TIS and KRA membership, and PGP privacy stance. Adam From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 14 16:51:46 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:51:46 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811150026.BAA28478@replay.com> Shouldn't we be using "Mr. Cordian's" real name? Matt Blaze (mab at research.att.com), also occasionally known as "M.F. Tones", and even less often as "Mr. Rouge" (There should be an accent mark there actually). From billp at nmol.com Sat Nov 14 18:03:39 1998 From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:03:39 +0800 Subject: nm web site Message-ID: <364E3019.18B0@nmol.com> Saturday 11/14/98 6:13 PM John Young http://www.jya.com/index.htm J Orlin Grabbe http://www.aci.net/kalliste/ As a result of jy's persuasive arguments http://jya.com/whpfiles.htm, we are going to put up a web site. But unlike you-all's sites ours will be somewhat positive 1 masm mixed language programming ... and Microsoft bugs 2 8032 forth programming and hardware 3 pc hardware 4 pro se litigation against the government 5 cypto nonsense 6 ... But, most important, we have learned by your pioneering web information dissemination efforts. And mistakes at other websites. Like bouncing balls. You guys, in my opinion, are the some of the most brilliant, perhaps with the exception of the X-rated sites, at getting the info out there. And yes, we will use THUMBNAIL photos. Of schematics, main boards, .... etc. Simplicity exudes brilliance. Perhaps there is a converse? Thoughtfully, I hope bill From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 14 18:34:09 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:34:09 +0800 Subject: NSA on OS Flaws Message-ID: <199811150212.VAA01270@camel8.mindspring.com> An NSA team presented at NISSC98 in October "The Inevitability of Failure: The Flawed Assumption of Security in Modern Computing Environments:" http://jya.com/paperF1.htm (62K) Abstract Although public awareness of the need for security in computing systems is growing rapidly, current efforts to provide security are unlikely to succeed. Current security efforts suffer from the flawed assumption that adequate security can be provided in applications with the existing security mechanisms of mainstream operating systems. In reality, the need for secure operating systems is growing in today�s computing environment due to substantial increases in connectivity and data sharing. The goal of this paper is to motivate a renewed interest in secure operating systems so that future security efforts may build on a solid foundation. This paper identifies several secure operating system features which are lacking in mainstream operating systems, argues that these features are necessary to adequately protect general application-space security mechanisms, and provides concrete examples of how current security solutions are critically dependent on these features. Keywords: secure operating systems, mandatory security, trusted path, Java, Kerberos, IPSEC, SSL, firewalls. ----- The paper advocates greater research on vulnerabilities of operating systems which allow malicious attackers to circumvent application-level security, including cryptographic protection. Ways to get around hardware and software crypto are outlined. Covert channels are a prime concern, as well as benign use inadverdently allowing malicious intrusion. An extensive list of references trace the twenty-five year history of OS flaws and examine why so little has been done to correct known deficiencies which undermine seemingly unbreachable applications. Readings about DTOS, Fluke, Flash and other developments of the NSA-sponsored Synergy program are illuminating. The recent republication of early compsec documents by CSRC is appropriate to this topic, particularly, "Subversion: The Neglected Aspect of Computer Security," by Philip Myer, June 1980, a thesis at NPS: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/history/myer80.pdf Not that NSA would ever exploit OS weaknesses not warned about. ----- Thanks to JM/RH for pointing to the NISSC papers. From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 14 19:31:08 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:31:08 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811150307.EAA08300@replay.com> At 09:35 PM 11/14/98 -0500, John Young wrote: > >An NSA team presented at NISSC98 in October >"The Inevitability of Failure: The Flawed Assumption >of Security in Modern Computing Environments:" ... >Not that NSA would ever exploit OS weaknesses not warned >about. > Part of the context for this: NSA is trying to encourage their new testing program for security products. My feeling is that program, in turn, is intended to preserve the spaces for all the employees involved in the failed TCSEC/Rainbow testing program. I say "failed" because it hasn't caught on in the private sector, it's expensive and, of course, the laughable "C2 in '92." If you can't trust your OS, Dum-dum-Dah! NSA to the rescue with testing! The new Common Criteria is to replace TCSEC/Rainbow next year, but if it walks like a duck.... From whgiii at openpgp.net Sat Nov 14 20:11:12 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:11:12 +0800 Subject: hello -- do not read Message-ID: <199811150355.WAA26773@domains.invweb.net> This is a test, this is only a test. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From PaulMerrill at acm.org Sat Nov 14 20:11:25 1998 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:11:25 +0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <199811150307.EAA08300@replay.com> Message-ID: <364E789E.850EA9CD@ACM.Org> Anonymous wrote: <> > failed TCSEC/Rainbow testing program. I say "failed" > because it hasn't caught on in the private sector, it's expensive and, > of course, the laughable "C2 in '92." While I was never a great fan of the Rainbow Series, to say that it failed because it hasn't caught on in the private sector is not holding very close to the point of it all. The "typical" private sector approach to security is to do nothing 'til the hackers come over the iInternet and wreak havoc the throw up a proxie server/firewall and go back to normal practices until the next "event" and try to plug That Hole. C2 by 92 was an effort on the part of the govenment/military to stop those practices on their own parts. True, not ompletely succesful, but hey what the Hell, how many of the efforts by them folk are? PHM From blancw at cnw.com Sat Nov 14 20:30:08 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:30:08 +0800 Subject: y2k+nukes===???? (drudge) In-Reply-To: <199811130049.QAA18857@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <000201be104e$53bf6be0$398195cf@blanc> >From Vladimir Z. Nurid: : Far more likely, however, is the prospect of a leader, : under pressure from hairtrigger response mechanisms, : pressing the nuclear button on the basis of inaccurate : data." ................................................. So what are your plans for Dec 31, 1999, VZN. Doing anything special? .. Blanc I'm gonna buyme a Ford Truck 'n cruiseitupndown thu ro-oad.... From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 14 20:31:28 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:31:28 +0800 Subject: Test [no reply] Message-ID: <199811150416.WAA05933@einstein.ssz.com> Test From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 14 20:38:03 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:38:03 +0800 Subject: Test 2 [no reply, loop test, last one] Message-ID: <199811150419.WAA06039@einstein.ssz.com> Test 2 From whgiii at openpgp.net Sat Nov 14 20:51:13 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:51:13 +0800 Subject: loop test #1 Message-ID: <199811150436.XAA27826@domains.invweb.net> Loop, loop, loop -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From whgiii at openpgp.net Sat Nov 14 21:12:15 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:12:15 +0800 Subject: loop test #2 Message-ID: <199811150453.XAA28128@domains.invweb.net> Loop test #2 -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From whgiii at openpgp.net Sat Nov 14 21:30:57 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:30:57 +0800 Subject: loop test #3 Message-ID: <199811150503.AAA28459@domains.invweb.net> Loop test #3 -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 14 22:06:22 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 14:06:22 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) Message-ID: :-) Bwahahaha! Isn't this fun??? Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: vin at shell1.shore.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 00:31:21 -0500 To: Robert Hettinga , dcsb at ai.mit.edu From: Vin McLellan Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) Cc: Matt Blaze Status: U Out on the Cypherpunks List, "Anonymous" claimed to reveal the real identity of E.M. Cordian, the organizer of the DES Analytical Crack. See: http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html >Shouldn't we be using "Mr. Cordian's" real >name? Matt Blaze (mab at research.att.com), also >occasionally known as "M.F. Tones", and even less >often as "Mr. Rouge" (There should be an accent mark >there actually). In response, Robert Hettinga declared: >Just to clear the air a smidge. > >If Matt Blaze says he's looking for an algebraic inverse to DES, I tend to >believe him... Jeeze, Rob! This is your attempt to help "clear the air?" I do not for a moment believe that Eric Michael Cordian is a pseudonym for Matt Blaze ! You should maybe query Matt directly before you endorse E.M. Cordian as Matt Blaze in drag. You could confuse a whole lot of people who trust your insider knowledge of these steamy Net Affairs. To anyone familiar with Blaze's essays, speeches, & on-line posts, a scan of Mr. Codrian's FAQ and published comments should make it apparent that this suggestion is unlikely, if not perposterous. The real Matt Blaze would also not be making these absurd and false claims that some mysterious "book" describing a cryptosystem identical or equivalent to the RSA public key cryptosystem was published "years" before Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir and Len Adelman first published their RSA PKC algorithm in April, 1977. (It's well documented in the Cypherpunk archives, Codrian assures us;-) There was no such book. Cordian's statement is just not true. The real Matt Blaze -- the guy who wrote the pithy Afterward to Schneier's Applied Cryptography,II -- would know that this is not true. (Actually, I'd bet that even Robert Hettinga knows that this is untrue.) Mind you, if the real Matt Blaze announced that he was seeking $500 from twenty people to fund a private research project which he felt had a meaningful chance of casting DES as a NP-hard combinatorial problem and attacking it with an appropriate combinatorial algorithm, I'd send a check off tomorrow. The real Matt Blaze would not have 15 donors -- as Mr. Cordian reports -- but be stimied on how to get five more. I wish Mr. Cordian well in his algebraic attack on DES -- but, unfortunately, he is not the real Matt Blaze. Not even a near-clone. We could do with a few more professionals with Blaze's talent, energy, and integrity in general circulation. Suerte, _Vin ----- "Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege." _ A Thinking Man's Creed for Crypto _vbm. * Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + * 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548 --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 14 22:08:38 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 14:08:38 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 00:47:21 -0500 To: Vin McLellan , dcsb at ai.mit.edu From: Robert Hettinga Subject: Re: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) Cc: Matt Blaze Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Hettinga At 12:31 AM -0500 on 11/15/98, Vin McLellan wrote: > (Actually, I'd bet that even Robert Hettinga knows that this is > untrue.) Moi? ;-) Now *why* would I do that to you, Vin? Don't let those ol' Snakes of Medusa bite you, pal. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help". --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 14 22:52:06 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 14:52:06 +0800 Subject: penis test #1 Message-ID: <199811150636.HAA23965@replay.com> penis test one From whgiii at gulf.net Sat Nov 14 22:58:06 1998 From: whgiii at gulf.net (whgiii at gulf.net) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 14:58:06 +0800 Subject: List Test Message-ID: <199811150631.BAA30075@domains.invweb.net> Just another test, sorry. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From bmm at minder.net Sat Nov 14 23:55:07 1998 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:55:07 +0800 Subject: rainbow series In-Reply-To: <364E789E.850EA9CD@ACM.Org> Message-ID: Amen. In my experience, no network I've _ever_ been associated with (private, public, miltary, or whatever) has ever proactively pursued a security model. Security has always been defined as preventing a well-defined (and well-experienced) exploit from being repeatedly used. Rainbow series, feh! Even the folks who should know better call NT4 C2 compliant. CYA is the TLA of the day. On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Paul H. Merrill wrote: > Anonymous wrote: > <> > > failed TCSEC/Rainbow testing program. I say "failed" > > because it hasn't caught on in the private sector, it's expensive and, > > of course, the laughable "C2 in '92." > > While I was never a great fan of the Rainbow Series, to say that it > failed because it hasn't caught on in the private sector is not holding > very close to the point of it all. The "typical" private sector approach > to security is to do nothing 'til the hackers come over the iInternet > and wreak havoc the throw up a proxie server/firewall and go back to > normal practices until the next "event" and try to plug That Hole. > > C2 by 92 was an effort on the part of the govenment/military to stop > those practices on their own parts. True, not ompletely succesful, but > hey what the Hell, how many of the efforts by them folk are? > > PHM > From bluefish at swipnet.se Sun Nov 15 16:22:33 1998 From: bluefish at swipnet.se (bluefish at swipnet.se) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:22:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Put America's Best Chili Recipes on Your Christmas List Message-ID: <199811160022.QAA25244@toad.com> AMERICA's BEST CHILI RECIPES ARE NOW HERE!!! Check out our special 2 for 1 offer All orders received December 15, 1998 are guaranteed to be delivered by Christmas. Nothing is more American than a hot bowl of Chili, but if you ask a hundred people about how to make the best bowl of chili you'll probably get a hundred different answers. America's Best Chili Recipes hopes to help answer this question by offering fifty of the most diverse Chili recipes that you will find anywhere. 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Our book normally sells for $12.95 +$2.00 shipping/handling. However, this Holiday Season you can get Ameica's Best Chili Recipes for only $9.95, and we'll pay for shipping and handling -- a savings of $5.00. GET TWO COPIES AND SAVE EVEN MORE!!! Give a copy this Christmas to a friend or relative. If you buy a copy of America's Best Chili Recipes we'll send you an additional copy for only $5.00. That's two copies for only $14.95, 50% off the regular price. ORDER NOW!!! All orders received by December 15, 1998 are guaranteed to be delivered in time for Christmas. You can also have us mail your gift to your friend or relative for you. Please use the form below : ============================================================= ORDER FORM Yes, I'd like to own my own copy of America's Best Chili Recipes. I have filled out this form to help expedite my order: Please check-off your order: ____ One Copy of America's Best Chili Recipes for $9.95 (A savings of $5.00) ____ Two Copies of America's Best Chili Recipes for $14.95 (A savings of $14.95) Name: Address: City: State: Zip: E-mail Address: (For order confirmation) Please send payment to: America's Best Recipes 12762 Brookhurst St. Suite 438-B Garden Grove, CA 92840 (714) 375-5458 From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 15 06:15:09 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 22:15:09 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) Message-ID: :-) --- begin forwarded text To: Vin McLellan cc: Robert Hettinga , dcsb at ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 05:33:22 -0500 From: Matt Blaze That you for CCing the enclosed message. I must admit that I'm rather puzzled by it. This is the first I've head of an "E.M Cordian," or for that matter "M.F. Tones" or "Mr. Rogue." I am quite sure, however, that I am none of these people. I have also never seen, or claimed to have seen, any description of the RSA algorithm, other than the the recently declassified public key historical material from GCHQ, that predates R, S and A's original paper on the subject. I don't subscribe to the cypherpunks mailing list (or, for that matter, DCSB), and I've only just now scanned over the web page mentioned in your message, so I'm unclear as to what might be going on. Perhaps someone is confused about the $7.00 "better DES challenge" that I offered last year (which was solved this year by the EFF DES brute force hardware). Whatever this is about, however, I assure you that any use of my name in connection with a solicitation for funds for some sort of "analytical DES cracking" effort, or any suggestion that I'm involved in such a project, is absolutely false and perhaps fraudulent. Feel free to forward this as you see fit. Thanks -Matt Blaze > Out on the Cypherpunks List, "Anonymous" claimed to reveal the real >identity of E.M. Cordian, the organizer of the DES Analytical Crack. See: >http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html > >>Shouldn't we be using "Mr. Cordian's" real >>name? Matt Blaze (mab at research.att.com), also >>occasionally known as "M.F. Tones", and even less >>often as "Mr. Rouge" (There should be an accent mark >>there actually). > > In response, Robert Hettinga declared: > >>Just to clear the air a smidge. >> >>If Matt Blaze says he's looking for an algebraic inverse to DES, I tend to >>believe him... > > Jeeze, Rob! This is your attempt to help "clear the air?" > > I do not for a moment believe that Eric Michael Cordian > is a pseudonym for Matt Blaze ! > > You should maybe query Matt directly before >you endorse E.M. Cordian as Matt Blaze in drag. You could confuse a whole >lot of people who trust your insider knowledge of these steamy Net Affairs. > > To anyone familiar with Blaze's essays, speeches, & on-line posts, >a scan of Mr. Codrian's FAQ and published comments should make it apparent >that this suggestion is unlikely, if not perposterous. > > The real Matt Blaze would also not be making these absurd and false >claims that some mysterious "book" describing a cryptosystem identical or >equivalent to the RSA public key cryptosystem was published "years" before >Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir and Len Adelman first published their RSA PKC >algorithm in April, 1977. (It's well documented in the Cypherpunk >archives, Codrian assures us;-) > > There was no such book. Cordian's statement is just not true. The >real Matt Blaze -- the guy who wrote the pithy Afterward to Schneier's >Applied Cryptography,II -- would know that this is not true. > > (Actually, I'd bet that even Robert Hettinga knows that this is >untrue.) > > Mind you, if the real Matt Blaze announced that he was seeking $500 >from twenty people to fund a private research project which he felt had a >meaningful chance of casting DES as a NP-hard combinatorial problem and >attacking it with an appropriate combinatorial algorithm, I'd send a check >off tomorrow. > > The real Matt Blaze would not have 15 donors -- as Mr. Cordian >reports -- but be stimied on how to get five more. > > I wish Mr. Cordian well in his algebraic attack on DES -- but, >unfortunately, he is not the real Matt Blaze. Not even a near-clone. > > We could do with a few more professionals with Blaze's talent, >energy, and integrity in general circulation. > > Suerte, > > _Vin > >----- >"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for >good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by >its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who >deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege." >_ A Thinking Man's Creed for Crypto _vbm. > > * Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + * > 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548 > > --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From schneier at counterpane.com Sun Nov 15 06:31:05 1998 From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 22:31:05 +0800 Subject: Electronic Commerce: The Future of Fraud Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981113183112.0096f750@mail.visi.com> This appeared in my November newsletter, CRYPTO-GRAM, but I thought it general enough interest to send it here. Bruce Electronic Commerce: The Future of Fraud Fraud has been perpetrated against every commerce system man has ever invented, from gold coin to stock certificates to paper checks to credit cards. Electronic commerce systems will be no different; if that's where the money is, that's where the crime will be. The threats are exactly the same. Most fraud against existing electronic commerce systems -- ATM machines, electronic check systems, stored value tokens -- has been low tech. No matter how bad the cryptographic and computer security safeguards, most criminals bypass them entirely and focus on procedural problems, human oversight, and old-fashioned physical theft. Why attack subtle information security systems when you can just haul an ATM machine away in a truck? This implies that new commerce systems don't have to be secure, but just better than what exists. Don't outrun the bear, just outrun the people you're with. Unfortunately, there are three features of electronic commerce that are likely to make fraud more devastating. One, the ease of automation. The same automation that makes electronic commerce systems more efficient than paper systems also makes fraud more efficient. A particular fraud that might have taken a criminal ten minutes to execute on paper can be completed with a single keystroke, or automatically while he sleeps. Low-value frauds, that fell below the radar in paper systems, become dangerous in the electronic world. No one cares if it is possible to counterfeit nickels. However, if a criminal can mint electronic nickels, he might make a million dollars in a week. A pickpocketing technique that works once in ten thousand tries would starve a criminal on the streets, but he might get thirty successes a day on the net. Two, the difficulty of isolating jurisdiction. The electronic world is a world without geography. A criminal doesn't have to be physically near a system he is defrauding; he can attack Citibank in New York from St. Petersburg. He can jurisdiction shop, and launch his attacks from countries with poor criminal laws, inadequate police forces, and lax extradition treaties. And three, the speed of propagation. News travels fast on the Internet. Counterfeiting paper money takes skill, equipment, and organization. If one or two or even a hundred people can do it, so what? It's a crime, but it won't affect the money supply. But if someone figures out how to defraud an electronic commerce system and posts a program on the Internet, a thousand people could have it in an hour, a hundred thousand in a week. This could easily bring down a currency. And only the first attacker needs skill; everyone else can just use software. "Click here to drop the deutsche mark." Cryptography has the potential to make electronic commerce systems safer than paper systems, but not in the ways most people think. Encryption and digital signatures are important, but secure audit trails are even more important. Systems based on long-term relationships, like credit cards and checking accounts, are safer than anonymous systems like cash. But identity theft is so easy that systems based solely on identity are doomed. Preventing crime in electronic commerce is important, but more important is to be able to detect it. We don't prevent crime in our society. We detect crime after the fact, gather enough evidence to convince a neutral third party of the criminal's guilt, and hope that the punishment provides a back-channel of prevention. Electronic commerce systems should have the same goals. They should be able to detect that fraud has taken place and finger the guilty. And more important, they should be able to provide irrefutable evidence that can convict the guilty in court. Perfect solutions are not required -- there are hundred of millions of dollars lost to credit card fraud every year -- but systems that can be broken completely are unacceptable. It's vital that attacks cannot be automated and reproduced without skill. Traditionally, fraud-prevention has been a game of catch-up. A commerce system is introduced, a particular type of fraud is discovered, and the system is patched. Money is made harder to counterfeit. Online credit card verification makes fraud harder. Checks are printed on special paper that makes them harder to alter. These patches reduce fraud for a while, until another attack is discovered. And the cycle continues. The electronic world moves too fast for this cycle. A serious flaw in an electronic commerce system could bankrupt a company in days. Today's systems must anticipate future attacks. Any successful electronic commerce system is likely to remain in use for ten years or more. It must be able to withstand the future: smarter attackers, more computational power, and greater incentives to subvert a widespread system. There won't be time to upgrade them in the field. Why Cryptography is Harder Than it Looks: http://www.counterpane.com/whycrypto.html Security Pitfalls in Cryptography: http://www.counterpane.com/pitfalls.html Subscribe to CRYPTO-GRAM: http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram.html ********************************************************************** Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems Phone: 612-823-1098 101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis, MN 55419 Fax: 612-823-1590 Free crypto newsletter. See: http://www.counterpane.com From stockmarketupdate1998iktrmjy at mci.com Sun Nov 15 23:51:16 1998 From: stockmarketupdate1998iktrmjy at mci.com (stockmarketupdate1998iktrmjy at mci.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: MAJOR "BUY" ALERT Message-ID: <> Company: Internet Stock Market Resources Symbol: I S M R Price: 1 3/4 ($1.75/share) The venerated German brokerage house, Bentegestgautgen Financials has issued a "STRONG BUY" on I S M R with a target price of $8.50. I S M R is the leader of financial on-line information and is currently profitable. I S M R has a public float of only 300,000 shares. For more information on I S M R go to: http://quicken.excite.com/investments/quotes/ ctl. From stockmarketupdate1998iktrmjy at mci.com Sun Nov 15 23:51:16 1998 From: stockmarketupdate1998iktrmjy at mci.com (stockmarketupdate1998iktrmjy at mci.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: MAJOR "BUY" ALERT Message-ID: <> Company: Internet Stock Market Resources Symbol: I S M R Price: 1 3/4 ($1.75/share) The venerated German brokerage house, Bentegestgautgen Financials has issued a "STRONG BUY" on I S M R with a target price of $8.50. I S M R is the leader of financial on-line information and is currently profitable. I S M R has a public float of only 300,000 shares. For more information on I S M R go to: http://quicken.excite.com/investments/quotes/ ctl. From gitpro at mailcity.com Mon Nov 16 00:07:03 1998 From: gitpro at mailcity.com (gitpro at mailcity.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mako Capital shares to triple in next few months, projects research company Message-ID: <199811160806.AAA27640@toad.com> Mako Capital shares to triple in next few months, projects research company! Mako Capital intent to merge with Sports Group International and market Spalding Sports Drinks worldwide. OTC BB � MAKO 3/4 What do Kiki Vandeweghe, Dorothy Hamill, Joe Namath, Bill Walton, Larry Holmes and Clyde Drexler all have in common? They are all shareholders of a dynamic sports drink company called Sports Group International Mako Capital On October 19, 1998 Mako Capital made a blockbuster announcement that was obviously overlooked by the investment community. Mako signed a letter of intent to merge with Sports Group International. Sports Group is a dynamic company with an experienced, proven management team. Sports Group has revolutionary products in the multi-billion dollar sports drink market. We instantly fell in love with their oxygenated water. This is water with seven times the oxygen of H20. It is a big hit with marathon runners and we feel that there is a huge market for this product. They also have newly formulated sports drinks to satisfy every market. Sports drinks designed for kids, women and bodybuilders. They also have powdered products. The key to this company is that their sports drinks are marketed under the Spalding name. Spalding is one of the most recognized names in sports. You can�t buy that type of name recognition. We are told that the company has 1.2 million cases pre-sold for 1999 which should bring in more than twenty million in revenue and 15% in profit (approximately 3 million). That would be better than one dollar per share in earnings. Sports Groups management team is headed by Kiki Vandeweghe, the former NBA All Star and Dean Miller, the star executive of Megafoods. As president of Megafoods, Dean saw the company grow from a couple of stores to 70 stores and $800 million in revenue. Realizing that much of the great success behind Gatorade was the advertising campaign featuring Michael Jordan, SGI has procured promotions and endorsements from athletes who are current shareholders like, Clyde Drexler, Kiki Vanderweghe, Bill Walton, Larry Holmes, Joe Namath, Dorothy Hamill and others. Mako Capital has the right combination of great products, a proven management team and a name recognized around the world, which will lead them into the next millenium. We are looking for the stock to trade $2 - $3 short term and $5 - $7 by summer of 1999. For more information contact: Financial Internet Group 800-959-9122 Disclaimer: Mako Capital has paid Freedom Rock Partners 150,000 shares of free trading stock and options to purchase 100,000 shares at $1.00. For more information please see our disclaimer. NOTE: For those on the internet who do not want to recieve exciting messages such as this..... *We strive to comply with all state and federal laws and to send ads only to interested parties. *This ad is not intended for nor do we knowingly send to Washington State residents. * OR CLICK_HERE_TO_GOTO_REMOVE-LIST.COM (http://remove-list.com) Remove-List is a free public service offering to help the general public get removed from commercial mailings lists and has not sent this message. If you want their help please add your name to their list and we you will not receive a commercial email from us or any other member bulk emailer. From stuffed at stuffed.net Mon Nov 16 01:19:09 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED MON NOV 16) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:19:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981116081001.19480.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + BUTT NAKED BABES + WET CUMSHOTS & WILD HARDCORE + ADULT INTERNET XXX + INTERNET AFFAIRS + ADULT ARTWORK OF ARTISTS + A SEXY GIRL + FREE HARDCORE PORN + ASIAN XXX NYMPHO + FREE PORN 4 ALL + SIBERIAN DAWGY DAWG + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/15066.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/16154.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/16042.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/20342.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/30693.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 15 09:43:21 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:43:21 +0800 Subject: Non Explosive Weapons Message-ID: <199811151721.MAA32349@smtp0.atl.mindspring.net> Richard Danzig, new Navy Secretary, op-eds in the NYT today about the threat of "Non Explosive Weapons (NEW)," posed by WMD and information warfare. http://jya.com/mil-panic.htm He terms them "weapons of mass disruption" which may lead to mass panic and will require the military and law enforcement agencies to unite in a new kind of US national defense, while, you bet, at the same time obeying law against domestic military operations. In passing, he notes that the military has encryption to protect itself against information attacks but that the public and infrastructure does not. Cavalry to the rescue. Danzig's message is remarkably similar to the Kyl report noted here a few days ago, and may indicate what's long been coming in the way of deploying military forces while falsely proclaiming Posse Comitatus is being fulfilled. Or that the law is about to be changed to meet the urgent threats of the Info Age, media-decorted, to be sure, like WMD Freddy or our own media-terrifying Toto. Bruce Hoffman's recently published "Inside Terrorism," lays out the full panoply of outlaw and lawful terrorism, by groups and nations, cults and religions. Like the "Thugs" of India who killed 1 million over 1200 years -- an impressive persistence. Hoffman claims that terrorism works in most cases. The reasons why have been discussed here, though not his depth and range of successes. And that the military seldom knows what to do about it except to engage in even greater terrorism itself, particularly against perceived supporters of the enemy. That's food for thought for those calling for military protection at home, whether by the military or the increasingly militarized and armed LEAs and support agencies. This linkage of WMD terrrorism and information threats appears to be the policy strategy to demonize information in order to criminalize it. "Information threats" under this policy does not mean anything protected by the 1A or WTO copyright, see how it works, is that clear motherfucker, do you need a missile in the head to get the point you fucking terrorist, read the NEWs, this aint TV Cops, Joe 6-Pack, it's high-tech GI Joe sapping your bunker, night-vision video rolling, family suicide by Semtex. From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 15 09:43:33 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:43:33 +0800 Subject: Non Explosive Weapons Message-ID: <199811151724.MAA21167@smtp0.atl.mindspring.net> Richard Danzig, new Navy Secretary, op-eds in the NYT today about the threat of "Non Explosive Weapons (NEW)," posed by WMD and information warfare. http://jya.com/mil-panic.htm He terms them "weapons of mass disruption" which may lead to mass panic and will require the military and law enforcement agencies to unite in a new kind of US national defense, while, you bet, at the same time obeying law against domestic military operations. In passing, he notes that the military has encryption to protect itself against information attacks but that the public and infrastructure does not. Cavalry to the rescue. Danzig's message is remarkably similar to the Kyl report noted here a few days ago, and may indicate what's long been coming in the way of deploying military forces while falsely proclaiming Posse Comitatus is being fulfilled. Or that the law is about to be changed to meet the urgent threats of the Info Age, media-decorted, to be sure, like WMD Freddy or our own media-terrifying Toto. Bruce Hoffman's recently published "Inside Terrorism," lays out the full panoply of outlaw and lawful terrorism, by groups and nations, cults and religions. Like the "Thugs" of India who killed 1 million over 1200 years -- an impressive persistence. Hoffman claims that terrorism works in most cases. The reasons why have been discussed here, though not his depth and range of successes. And that the military seldom knows what to do about it except to engage in even greater terrorism itself, particularly against perceived supporters of the enemy. That's food for thought for those calling for military protection at home, whether by the military or the increasingly militarized and armed LEAs and support agencies. This linkage of WMD terrrorism and information threats appears to be the policy strategy to demonize information in order to criminalize it. "Information threats" under this policy does not mean anything protected by the 1A or WTO copyright, see how it works, is that clear motherfucker, do you need a missile in the head to get the point you fucking terrorist, read the NEWs, this aint TV Cops, Joe 6-Pack, it's high-tech GI Joe sapping your bunker, night-vision video rolling, family suicide by Semtex. From emc at wire.insync.net Sun Nov 15 09:51:46 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:51:46 +0800 Subject: DES Trolls Message-ID: <199811151736.LAA28829@wire.insync.net> Vin McLellan, apparently not satisfied with only one flame, makes this response to a very conveniently appearing anonymous remailer troll saying something silly about Matt Blaze: > The real Matt Blaze would also not be making these absurd and false > claims that some mysterious "book" describing a cryptosystem identical > or equivalent to the RSA public key cryptosystem was published "years" > before Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir and Len Adelman first published their > RSA PKC algorithm in April, 1977. (It's well documented in the > Cypherpunk archives, Codrian assures us;-) Here the disingenuous Vin gives his own description of my prior post, which he then proceeds to loudly refute, and I certainly didn't use the word "identical" or the word "equivalent." I stated that descriptions of "that which is now known as RSA" have appeared in print, and that the one-way characteristics of the RSA trap-door function were also previously known. The arguments for invalidation of the RSA patent were based on two central claims. First, that work which contained similar material was distributed by preprint and presented at conferences more than one year before the RSA patent was applied for. This would include the Diffie-Hellman paper on "Multiuser Cryptographic Techniques", the early Merkle-Hellman work, and the Pohlig-Hellman work. The second claim that may be made against RSA is that the system is "obvious." Support for this claim may be found in books dating all the way back to the 19th century which discuss both the cryptographic usefulness of one-way functions, and the factorization of the product of two primes as one example of such a function. Quoting "Cyberlaw": "There are a number of references in the prior art, moreover, to using the problem of factoring composite numbers in cryptography, dating back to the 19th century. "In 1870, a book by William S. Jevons described the relationship of one-way functions to cryptography and went on to discuss specifically the factorization problem used to create the "trap-door" in the RSA system." > There was no such book. Cordian's statement is just not true. Only a complete moron would place himself in the position of trying to prove such an all-encompassing negative. > (Actually, I'd bet that even Robert Hettinga knows that this is > untrue.) People_insulted_by_Vin_in_this_thread++; > The real Matt Blaze would not have 15 donors -- as Mr. Cordian reports > -- but be stimied on how to get five more. If you had correctly read the FAQ, you would see that we have 5 sponsors, and 15 open sponsorships. We are not stimied, we are writing and debugging many thousands of lines of extremely complex code, and do not wish to be distracted by further marketing activities at this time. > I wish Mr. Cordian well in his algebraic attack on DES All together now. "Bwahahahahahahhahaahah!" This concludes my response to Vin, who may now return to his regularly scheduled trolling lessons. Now, if this weren't all hilarious enough, Matt Blaze, who is usually smarter than this, feels an urgent need to leap in with... > Whatever this is about, however, I assure you that any use of my name > in connection with a solicitation for funds for some sort of > "analytical DES cracking" effort, or any suggestion that I'm involved > in such a project, is absolutely false and perhaps fraudulent. Let me state for the record that the DES Analytic Crack Project has made no claims about any of the prople working on it, other than that they are competent implementors of complex algorithms. Matt Blaze is not associated with the project, and if any other crypto notables wish a similar public statement made about them, they have only to email and request it. Sponsorships for the project are being solicited on the basis of the statement of work in the FAQ, and work product to date. They are not being solicited based on any representation that various individuals with recognizable names are associated with the project. Anonymous trolls making such allegations, followed by irate rebuttals by shills, and scientists who should know better, are clearly an attempt at disruption. Continued such antics will be met with an appropriate legal response. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From whgiii at openpgp.net Sun Nov 15 09:55:58 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:55:58 +0800 Subject: Link test [1432] Message-ID: <199811151735.MAA05811@domains.invweb.net> hi -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Sun Nov 15 10:18:01 1998 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:18:01 +0800 Subject: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811120446.WAA27641@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:52:06 -0500 > > From: Petro > > Subject: Re: Elder Kennedy ordered to tesify to Grand Jury (if you can > > call it that) [CNN] (fwd) > > > Jim, "Grand Jury", a jury to see if there is enough evidence to > > warrant a full trial. > > > > >Irrelevant, one doesn't throw away the justice system because it might have > > >been abused. One wrong does not justify another. > > > > Correct, but this isn't a guilty or innocent trial, this is a "is > > there enough evidence to try this person" type trial. > > > > This judge can't throw the perp in jail, only throw another trial > > where there will be 12 to judge. > What part of Petro's response did you fail to understand? THe "elder Kennedy" is not on trail. A grand jury is convened to determine if enough evidence exists to bring trail. Those brought before a grand jury are almost always witnesses, or potential witnesses, as is the elder Kennedy. A grand jury hearing and a criminal trail are two completely seperate processes. All the grand jury can do is determine whether or not to indite, whereupon the accused has the right to a fair trail before a jury as you state. Anyway, the injustice in this matter is that the two most likely suspects, who were both dating the victim up to her death, have never been brought to trial. Just another abuse by america's "royal family." The murder weapon was a golf club belonging to, as I recall, the father of one of the boys. Both boys were seen with her on the night of her death. No trial for over twenty years, plenty of expensive legal manuvering to prevent one. And now Jim complaining that a single judge is insufficient to determine if an inditement should be handed down. Perhaps prof. Froomkin is reading the list and can pass on an informed legal opinion? I've never seen any regulations baring a judge from serving in the capacity of a grand jury, OTOH, IANAL. -r.w. From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Sun Nov 15 10:37:16 1998 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:37:16 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, but could Bob Hettinga be Vin McLellan's sock puppet? On Sun, 15 Nov 1998, Robert Hettinga wrote: > :-) > > Bwahahaha! > > Isn't this fun??? > > Cheers, > Bob Hettinga > From nobody at replay.com Sun Nov 15 10:52:34 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:52:34 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811151830.TAA09841@replay.com> 9 Nov 98 Carl Johnson #05987-196 P.O. Box 4000, Springfield, Missouri 65801-4000 I thought that given the fact that The Kontrollers seem to be Lying Out of Their Dirty Little AssHoles (TM) at every turn, in regard to my incarceration and legal situation, that I might as well use my time in Prison to improve my knowledge of Law & Politics. I am assuming that The Usual (TM) legal defenses are not an option for me, since my Public Defender seems to be too ashamed of his role in my Legal Case that he has not once contacted me. Perhaps it would be best for me to study the possibility of presenting an SOG-Z0G AmericaLand of the The Freeh Defense (TM). If you know of any Cpunx Shit Disturbers who are familiar with Zionist Occupational Government concepts literature and legal defense histories, I would be happy to study whatever material they could send me. (Information from The Flat Earth Society would also come in handy, to prepare a Back Up Defense, eh?) Tell Zog that Chuck and Squeaky say, "High!" CJ From nobody at replay.com Sun Nov 15 10:57:23 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:57:23 +0800 Subject: DES Trolls In-Reply-To: <199811151736.LAA28829@wire.insync.net> Message-ID: <199811151841.TAA10404@replay.com> >>>>> "Mr. Roug�" == Eric Cordian burbled: > Continued such antics will be met with an appropriate legal response. All together now. "Bwahahahahahahhahaahah!" ;-) -- BobMonger ;-) From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 15 11:33:06 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 03:33:06 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:27 PM -0500 on 11/15/98, Rabid Wombat wrote: > No, but could Bob Hettinga be Vin McLellan's sock puppet? Um, it's *meat* puppet, Rab, meat puppet... Or, better, "Bwahahahahahahah!" Seriously. Like most normal people, I hate saying facially outrageous things in well-known watering holes and being wrong, but it's particularly annoying when you're consistantly ambushed by self-appointed, um, holes of another kind. Vin did this kind of vigorous error correction on me twice now, on my own turf, in the past three weeks. Not only were both flames about two standard deviations outside the bounds of altruistic desires to correct the record, which even *I* can excuse once in a while ;-), this kind of silly dreck is getting to be a positive habit with Mr. McLellan. I mean, Socrates was right, and all that, but he was also a pain in the ass. I fixed my problem with Mr. McLellan this morning, though. Mr. McLellan can crusade against threats to his world view on someone else's list, I figure. So, yup, mea fucking culpa. As Frank Lloyd Wright was fond of saying when he'd been caught in a stretcher, or at least vigorously propounding an error, "Well. There you are!" Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From emilhusb at online.no Mon Nov 16 04:52:55 1998 From: emilhusb at online.no (emilhusb at online.no) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 04:52:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Find Out Anything About Anyone On The Net !!!! /"][ Message-ID: <199811161355.OAA16542@dns.commnet.it> YOU can easily learn how to investigate and learn EVERYTHING about your employees, neighbors, friends, enemies, and or anyone else !!! It is absolutely amazing !!! 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If you are a Washington resident or otherwise wish to be removed from this list, go to global remove site if you want your address removed from future mailing. http://209.84.246.162/remove.htm This Global Communication has been sent to you by: PAVILION ADVERTISING SERVICES Offices: London, Paris, Berlin, Hong Kong From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 15 13:06:01 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 05:06:01 +0800 Subject: Plug: Check out wasp.org... Message-ID: http://www.wasp.org/ is a site which belongs to WASP's author, and DBS and DCSB member, Steven Smith. When it's finished, the current version is about 70%-there alpha, WASP will be an open source web application delivery platform written in JAVA for XML/HTML. Steve and I were talking about using WASP for digital commerce, financial cryptography, and dbts applications Friday night, at Anthony's Pier 4, during the Constitution Yacht Club awards banquet. (Naw, not *that* kind of yacht club. CYC, while I'm plugging things, for those of you who sail in Boston, charges all of $75/yr, and it mostly does 'round-the-bouy races and cookouts, all out of a one-room prefab houseboat clubhouse tied up at the Constitution Marina in Charlestown. Steve graciously answered a cattlecall on the DCSB list for crew this summer, and now does foredeck on Corisan, the 1968 Columbia 38-footer a bunch of us old farts race on every Thursday night in Boston harbor, when it's warm enough to, anyway.) So, seeing that WASP is still being built, and Steve is crypto-clueful, I thought I'd spam the crypto community (and a few others :-)) about WASP so that Steve could get some comments on what he has now, and requests for new stuff he can add to WASP. And, of course, since it's open source, to solicit WASP additions, if WASP indeed doesn't suck, both crypto and otherwise, from other clueful people both inside the country and otherwise. :-). The following is from Steve's FAQ on WASP, sans links, so it might read strangely here in text. Cheers, Bob Hettinga > 1. What is the WASP? > > The WASP is an OpenSourceTM platform (library) for developing complex web >applications. It is written in Java and runs under any system which will >support the Java Servlet API. (eg. Sun's JavaWebServer, Apache (via Live >Software's JRun), NetScape, IIS and others.) > > The current version is: 0.7a. Download it now. I think this is 70% to a >1.0 release. 0.8a will be out by 11/16 and will include the >DataAccessObject (org.wasp.data.*). > > 2. How does the WASP work? > > The WASP parses .wasp files which consist of standard HTML and some >additional XML tags that are used to control the behavior of the WASP. >All .wasp files should be consistent with XML syntax. The WASP allows you >to add new tags and functionality easily. The default set of tags provide >standard script features, including: variable substitution, conditional >processing, looping, dynamic SQL queries (for prototyping only), >interfaces to Data Access Objects, etc. Session management is provided by >the underlying Servlet API and WASP applications have access request, >session, and global namespaces. See the Javadoc. > > 3. Who can use the WASP? > > Anyone can use it for Free! Better yet, you can download the source. >The WASP is released under the Library General Public License (LGPL), so >if you make any improvements to the WASP, the results must be free as >well. WARNING: This software is still alpha stage. It works, but there >are no Makefiles or INSTALL instructions yet. You're on your own. An >example .wasp page will be posted soon. > > 4. Why would I want to use the WASP? > > That is probably the subject for an entire whitepaper which I don't have >time to write. I wrote this software because all the methods I have found >for developing web applications suck in some way or other. Even >monumental OpenSource treasures like Apache and Perl leave something to be >desired when considering a complex application. Before I go trashing >everyone else's stuff though, let me tell you why The WASP doesn't suck: > > It is easily extended so you can make it do whatever you want. It is >written in Java so you can use any server OS or Database. It seperates >HTML from SQL and Java application logic, thereby allowing designers to >design and programmers to program. It is fast and scaleable. It will run >well enough on your hopped up 486 linux box and it will scream on your 10 >CPU Sparc Mega Server. If you run NT, I'm sure it'll work there too. >(Shame on you for wasting good hardware!) It encourages the development of >reusable business objects. It can talk to dynamic data sources/services >that are not SQL-Based! (Important for complex distributed object >applications.) It is OpenSource, so when you run into a bug, you can fix >it! It is comprehendable by any experienced object programmer. (Only >~3000 lines of code) It is Free! > > 5. What's wrong with the other stuff? > > The other standard methods for developing web apps all suffer from one or >more of the following: > > They involve editing single files containing 5 or more programming >lanugages, all with different syntax, and which execute in 5 different >places at 5 different times. They require you to surf the tech-support >websites of your tools vendors hoping for clues to some bug. They yield >unmaintainable / throwaway solutions. They tie you to a single vendor's >hardware, operating system, or database. They force you to use some arcane >GUI environment to create your "application". This process always feels >like Voodoo to me. M1CR0S0F4 R00LZ D00D!!!1!!1!. They cost money whether >they work well or not. > > 6. What can I do for the WASP? > > I will be setting up a database here soon to keep track of a wishlist, >bugs, etc. In the meantime, consult the source code and look for XXX in >the comments. These indicate areas that need work. Obviously, general >stuff like cleaning up error paths/exception handling would help. Anyone >with experience in the area of Enterprise Java Beans who could offer >suggestions on how to implement the Data Access stuff in the approved Java >framework would be greatly appreciated. I understand the EJB isn't baked >yet. I guess I'll buy a book on it after I finish the contract I'm on. > > After the Parser is reworked, the Page cache might be reworked to >serialize and write to disk or use some persistant store. The WASP caches >pages to avoid expensive parsing but I haven't yet measured how much >memory this uses. (RAM sure is cheap these days!) > > Also, if you really want a pure OpenSource stack of software, someone >needs to implement an OpenSource servlet runner. That is truely a >"chasing taillights" problem (as the Halloween Document put it) so it >should be easily enough accomplished. If no one steps up to plate, maybe >I'll get around to it, but don't hold your breath. I'm enjoying writing >WASP applications too much! > > There is a net-CVS repository for the WASP code. Read-only access has >not been set up yet. Contact steven.t.smith at pobox.com to obtain access. > > 7. What about the LGPL and Java Virtual Machine? > > I'm no licensing expert. Ostensibly, I want this program to be freely >used and improved while not enriching the lawyers, taxmen and all the >other parties that surround commercial software. Mostly, however, I want >to share this cool program with my friends. If anyone else can use it, >that would be great! If anyone could help me debug it, that would be even >greater! That's why I chose to OpenSource. > > What exactly defines a program running inside a JVM is not immediately >obvious. I just assumed that Java classes are all kind of like libraries. >That's why I chose to use the LGPL. > > In my view, the WASP consists of every class in the org.wasp.* heirarchy. >I don't consider any Data Access code that is specific to your >website/application and which may be "linked" into the WASP at runtime, to >be "part of" of the WASP or create some kind of derivative work. If you >do write additional Taglets which are of general use, I expect those to be >included in the WASP. This is sort of "enforced" by Taglets registering >themselves via code in the main org.wasp.engine.Servlet.init(), thereby, >in my view, making them part of the WASP. Data Access stuff that is >custom to your application can be configured in via initialization >parameters and thusly not considered to be part of the WASP. > > For what it's worth, the more you poke around this stuff, the more you >realize that Software isn't a THING at at all. All those phantasms people >use to think about it are simply anachonistic hold-overs from industrial >era, scarcity thinking. Software Licenses and the businesses they support >begin to look like so many Voodoo incantations and pointless >pontifications about angels on the head of pin. Or worse, they seem like >the rules of a silly boardgame which is played with real money, and in >which the house (government, lawyers, VCs, Investment Banks and corporate >shareholders) always wins. Casinos at least offer better odds. I believe >a programmer is better off figuring out how to get people to actually use >and propagate code in ways that enrich each of us individually and empower >individuals generally. > > 8. Who wrote it? > > Me. (steven.t.smith at pobox.com) And whoever I could sucker into helping >me. ;-) See the CONTRIBUTORS file for details. ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From frantz at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 13:48:10 1998 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 05:48:10 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:27 AM -0700 11/15/98, Rabid Wombat wrote: >No, but could Bob Hettinga be Vin McLellan's sock puppet? Having met both of them (in the same room yet), not bloody likely. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Macintosh: Didn't do every-| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | thing right, but did know | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | the century would end. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From davidwatts_98 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 16:35:50 1998 From: davidwatts_98 at yahoo.com (David Watts) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:35:50 +0800 Subject: U.S. Attorney Morgenthau on Money Laundering Message-ID: <19981115235850.2195.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Can't blame the Feds for this one; Morgenthau is actually the District Attorney for Manhattan, not the U.S. Attorney. My bad. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 15 17:04:19 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:04:19 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811160044.TAA15729@camel14.mindspring.com> Robert Hettinga wrote: >I fixed my problem with Mr. McLellan this morning, though. Mr. McLellan can >crusade against threats to his world view on someone else's list, I figure. Ye gods, Robert, what'd you do to Vin, told TRW the facts of his Ponzi, sent his name to the IRS assassin bot with e-$3, broadcast his secret key, revealed his criminal nyms, told his deadbeat kids where he really hides, scrambled his biometrics so he'd never access offshore stashes, crayoned his sweetie's moniker, skills and number on John Glenn's overalls, or merely plonked, readied, aimed as is the privilege of demigodish ganglia atwitching. From jf_avon at citenet.net Sun Nov 15 17:26:11 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:26:11 +0800 Subject: Search and Seizure abuse... Message-ID: <199811160059.TAA27744@cti06.citenet.net> Note to elected officials: please inquire on this event an reply. Thanks JFA ========== forwarded from the Canadian Firearms Digest, V2 #701 ======== Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:23:49 -0600 From: Marstar Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #699 I WOULD LIKE TO ADD MY TWO CENTS WORTH, THIS IS A VERY SENSITIVE SUBJECT WITH US.... 1. Ask to see the search warrant. NFA: The searchers are required to SHOW you a COPY of the warrant or TELL you what is in it before executing it, and LEAVE you a copy of it when they leave.. 100% RIGHT, BUT WHEN THE PERSON POINTING THE MP-5 AT YOU TELLS YOU TO SHUT-UP AND MOVE AWAY, WHAT WOULD SUGGEST ?? 2. Ask the person in possession of the warrant to identify himself and all of those with him and to indicate whether those persons are authorized to aid in the execution of the warrant. WITH 40 PEOPLE ALREADY TEARING THINGS APART AND AN ENTIRE SWAT TEAM ON HAND HOLDING YOU AND YOUR EMPLOYEES AT GUNPOINT, THEY REFUSE TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES, HOW SHOULD WE IMPRESS THEM WITH OUR DEMANDS ?? TO ADD A BIT OF CHALLENGE TO THE AFFAIR MOST OF THE PEOPLE WERE IN CIVILIAN CLOTHES AND WORE NO ID....MOST OF THE TRUCK AND CARS WERE UNMARKED.... HAD WE NOT TAKEN PICTURES WE WOULD NOT EVEN KNOW WHO HAD "VISITED" US. 3. Request time to review the warrant and to obtain advice with respect to the appropriate course of conduct. EXCELLENT IDEA, WHEN I REACHED FOR THE PHONE TO CALL OUR LAWYER TWO OF THE SWAT TEAM SMEMBERS WITH MP-5s POINTED AT ME INSTRUCTED ME "TO GET THE HELL AWAY FROM THE PHONE" THE FACT THAT I TOLD THEM I WANTETO CALL MY LAWYER DID NOT SEEM TO IMPRESS THAT AT ALL.... AS FOR HAVING TIME TO REVIEW THE WARRANT, THEY DID NOT SEEM INTERESTED IN HEARING ANY ARGUMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.... IS THERE SOME OTHER APPROACH I SHOULD HAVE USED ?? 4. Read the warrant carefully to determine: the premises covered WE ADVISED THE OFFICER IN CHARGE THAT THIS WAS INCORRECT...."NOT IMPORTANT" WAS THE REPLY the specific documents or objects it covers WE ALSO ADVISED THEM OF THE ERRORS IN THIS SECTION...."IT DOES NOT MATTER" REPLIED THE ONE IN CHARGE OF THE RAID.... the alleged offence(s) subject of the warrant NEW: Read the DATE and TIMES that the warrant authorizes search. THESE POINTS WERE CORRECT.... Often, the warrant is invalid because they were supposed to do the search YESTERDAY, or EARLIER TODAY, and entry can then be legally refused. CC s. 488 forbids the execution of a search warrant AT NIGHT, unless "(a) the justice [who issues it] is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for it to be executed by night, (b) the reasonable grounds are included in the Information [laid before the justice to get the warrant], AND (c) the warrant authorizes that it be executed by night." 5. At the same time that the warrant is being reviewed, instruct someone to make the following calls (if not already made): legal counsel I INDICATED ABOVE WHAT HAPPENED WHEN WE ATTEMPTED TO USE THE PHONE, WE WERE SOME TIME INTO THE SEARCH BEFORE MY WIFE WAS ABLE TO CALL OUR LAWYER.... individuals named in the warrant whose offices are to be searched each should be advised that the search is pending and cautioned that they must not remove, alter or destroy any documents or other material in their offices. HEY THAT MANY PEOPLE CARRYING SUB MACHINE GUNS, SHOTGUNS, STUN GRENADES, HANDGUNS, ETC, ETC....HAVE MY INSTANT OBEDIENCE ASSURED.... >NFA: ADD the local news media GOOD LUCK, IN OUR CASE THEY CLOSED OFF OUR ROADWAY AND TURNED AWAY EVERYBODY WHO SHOWED UP.... FEW PEOPLE APPRECIATE THE "HOSPITALITY" OF ARMED POLICE AT YOU GATE.... >NFA: ADD NFA HQ: (403)439-1394 or NFA- (add prov.branch # here WE WERE UNABLE TO CONTACT THE NFA FOR SEVERAL HOURS.... >NFA NOTE: If told that you must sit down and not use the phone, ask: "Am I under arrest?" If the answer is "No, not YET!" then no one has any right to TOUCH you, or to hinder your use of the telephone. WE TRIED THAT APPROACH BUT I'M A CHICKEN AT HEART, TWO MP-5s POINTED AT MY MID-SECTION MADE ME THAT WAY.... If an officer DOES touch you, then ask again: "Am I under arrest?" If the answer is no, then say: "In that case, take your hand off me -- or I will arrest YOU for assault." [Yes, you ARE authorized to do that by Canadian law, CC s. 494(1) and (3)]. 6. Do not "agree" that the search can be expanded beyond the limits described in the warrant. IN OUR CASE THEY DID ABSOLUTELY AS THEY PLEASED, THEY HAD GUNS AND WE DID NOT.... 7. Do not answer any substantive questions. NFA: More people are convicted from what they SAY than from any other cause. You have a right to SILENCE. USE IT. Unless you know as much about firearms law as the NFA does, you have NO IDEA whether or not you ARE guilty - -- because you may SEEM to be guilty, and yet the NFA can often tell your lawyer why you are NOT. YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.... 8. Do not attempt to impede, physically or ot otherwise, the person executing the warrant. NFA: That is obstruction, and a criminal offence. AND IF YOU HAVE A PUMPED UP BUNCH OF PEOPLE CARRYING AUTOMATIC WEAPONS WITH FINGERS ON THE TRIGGER DON'T EVEN THINK OF GIVING THEM A PROBLEM.... THESE PEOPLE WILL SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER....THEY PROVED THAT ON A NUMBER OF RAIDS IN THE PAST FEW YEARS.... 9. If any documents exist in respect of which solicitor-client privilege may exist, identify the documents and their location and indicate to the search officer that the documents are subject to solicitor-client privilege and that you require that the appropriate procedures be followed to protect the privilege. OH YEAH, THAT IS GAURANTEED TO IMPRESS THEM, HELL WE EVEN HAVE PICTURES OF AN OFFICER STEALING DOCUMENTS.... 10. Keep an accurate log (or copy) of all documents seized. NFA: the searchers are required to file an "Information" with the court to get a search warrant. Unless the justice blocks it, the "Information" is a public document. After executing the warrant, the searchers must file a "Return" with the court, explaining what they did with the warrant and listing what they took. SO: After being searched, go to the court that issued the warrant and request a copy of the Information and Return relating to that warrant. You should be able to get them for the cost of photocopying, and they are VALUABLE. IN OUR CASE THEY SEALED THE WARRANT THEREBY DENYING ACCESS TO ALL WHO ASKED.... THEY WILL GIVE YOU WHATEVER RECEIPTS THEY FEEL LIKE GIVING YOU....WHEN THEY PLEASE.... ALL OF THE ABOVE INFORMATION IS ACCURATE AND A MATTER OF COURT RECORD. WE CHALLENGED THE WARRANTS AND THEY WERE DECLARED ILLEGAL.... WE CHALLENGED THE RAID UNDER TWO SECTIONS OF THE CANADIAN CHARTER, WE WON.... I THINK WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS "DON'T EXPECT THINGS TO GO DOWN IN A SMOOTH AND ORGANIZED MANNER, THEIR PEOPLE ARE RUNNING ON ADRENALIN, YOU ARE UPSET AND NERVOUS, THE HEAD MAN IS TRYING TO IMPRESS HIS MEN, DON'T BE A HERO, DON'T DO ANYTHING STUPID, LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY. SORRY FOR DRAGGING ON BUT EVEN AFTER 3.1/2 YEARS THIS EVENT STILL HAS ME FURIOUS. JOHN F ST AMOUR Definition:��FASCISM:�n.:��a�political�and�economic�movement,�strongly�nationalistic,�magnifying�the�rights�of�the�state�as�opposed�to�those�of�the�individual,�in�which�industry,�though�remaining�largely�under�private�ownership,�and�all�administrative political�units,�are�controlled�by�a�strong�central�government. ��������------------------------------------------------- "One�of�the�ordinary�modes�by�which�tyrants�accomplish�their�purpose,�without�resistance,�is�by�disarming�the�people�and�making�it�an�offense�to�keep�arms".��-�Joseph�Story,�U.S.�Supreme�Court�Justice. ��������------------------------------------------------- the�German�gun�control�laws�were�enacted�by�the�"liberal"�Weimar�Republic�government�that�preceded�Hitler,�and�were�a�strong�aid�to�his�coming�to�power�--�because�they�disarmed�Hitler's�opponents,�and�Hitler's�adherents�ignored�them�--�as�criminals�have�always�ignored�gun�control�laws. Disarming�the�public�is�a�frequent�first�step�toward�dictatorships�and�genocides.��Once�the�disarming�is�complete,�the�public�is�helpless�against�those�who�have�the�guns.��������------------------------------------------------- "Both�oligarch�and�tyrant�mistrust�the�people,�and�therefore� �deprive�them�of�their�arms." ���������������������������������--�Aristotle,�"Politics" ------------------------------------------------- PGP�keys:�http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP�ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E�F87CC86FAEFEF891� PGP�ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0�254011193237822C From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 15 18:16:55 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:16:55 +0800 Subject: update.402 (fwd) Message-ID: <199811160146.TAA08818@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:04:23 -0500 (EST) > From: physnews at aip.org (AIP listserver) > Subject: update.402 > PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE > The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News > Number 402 November 13, 1998 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben > Stein > > IMMISCIBLE QUANTUM LIQUIDS. The wavelike overlap of > cooled alkali atoms known as Bose Einstein condensation (BEC) > represents a new form of condensed matter in which physicists can > pursue studies of fluid dynamics, sound propagation, persistent > currents, and many of the coherence phenomena occurring in other > "super" states such as superfluids and superconductors. One notable > BEC innovation introduced in the past year by Wolfgang Ketterle > and his colleagues at MIT was the development of an all-optical trap > (Update 362) which can hold condensate atoms in a number of > distinct (hyperfine) internal states. And just as helium-3 (which has > a magnetic substructure) is a more complex superfluid than > nonmagnetic helium-4, so the multi-component MIT condensate > ought to exhibit behavior not seen in single-component BEC. > Indeed, at the New Horizons in Science meeting in Boston last week > Ketterle reported that when he immersed his BEC in a uniform > magnetic field and a stream of radio waves, those portions of the > condensate in different hyperfine states (m=0 and m=1) quickly > segregated themselves into alternating domains (differing in energies > equivalent to only a few nanokelvins) as if they were oil and > vinegar. Furthermore, these layers unexpectedly persist; in effect > this arrangement of the condensate constitutes a metastable > macroscopically occupied excited state. > THE ARROW OF TIME has been directly measured by two groups > of physicists, one at CERN in Geneva > (www.cern.ch/cplear/Welcome.html) and one at Fermilab > (http://fnphyx-www.fnal.gov/experiments/ktev/ktev.html) near > Chicago. Time reversal (T) is one of those symmetries, along with > charge conjugation (or C, the operation which turns particles into > antiparticles) and parity (or P, the reversal of a particle's > coordinates from x,y,z to -x,-y,-z) that were once thought to be > preserved in interactions at the atomic level. But then experiments > showed that P, C, and the combination CP were not sacred. And > since the triple symmetry of CPT is still thought to be valid, T by > itself was thought to be vulnerable. That is, it is not thought that > physics does differentiate between the forward or backward > movement of time. The two groups have now seen evidence for this > T violation in the observed decay rates for neutral K mesons. > (Science, 2 Oct.; Science News, 31 Oct.) > SONIC BANDGAPS, frequency ranges in which sound waves are ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From riburr at shentel.net Sun Nov 15 18:25:43 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:25:43 +0800 Subject: Satellites Brace for Space Storm Message-ID: <364F851E.DE3676C@shentel.net> AP story explains the real reason for the latest showdown with Iraq; Satellite damage from a brush with the lion's tail, the Leonid meteor storm. America's satellite fleet, born under a bad sign, will be sprinkled with high velocity fairy dust in the wake of Comet Tempel-Tuttle. Communications satellites and GPS face the highest risk. The latest Persian Gulf skirmish is mentioned a couple times. Apparently the loss of UN monitors and star-crossed destiny was too much for US security interests. With the loss of satellite services a remote possibility, reestablishment of UN monitoring was paramount. Residents of Baghdad will look at the starry display as a chilling reminder of who controls their destiny. � Satellites Brace for Space Storm By Paul Recer AP Science Writer http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-11/15/221l-111598-idx.html � From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 15 19:09:30 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:09:30 +0800 Subject: Could E.M. Cordian be Matt Blaze in Disguise? (Nah!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:34 PM -0500 on 11/15/98, John Young wrote: > Ye gods, Robert, what'd you do to Vin, told TRW the facts of his Ponzi, > sent his name to the IRS assassin bot with e-$3, broadcast his secret key, > revealed his criminal nyms, told his deadbeat kids where he really hides, > scrambled his biometrics so he'd never access offshore stashes, > crayoned his sweetie's moniker, skills and number on John Glenn's > overalls, or merely plonked, readied, aimed as is the privilege of > demigodish ganglia atwitching. Bwahahahahah! (Or something like it, anyway...) Nope. Nothing *that* serious. Something completely childish. He probably won't even notice. ;-). Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:10:24 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:10:24 +0800 Subject: IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom? Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA00989@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom? Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:27:52 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Wired News http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16217.html Y2Kaboom? by Declan McCullagh 12:27 p.m.12.Nov.98.PST WASHINGTON -- America and Russia should shut down their nuclear arsenals rather than risk Armageddon because of Year 2000 glitches, a military research group says in a report released Thursday. Y2K errors could cause the systems to go haywire, leading to erroneous early warning reports or even triggering an accidental launch of a nuclear missile, the British American Security Information Council warned in a 36-page report. Both superpowers keep their arsenals in a constant state of readiness -- a Cold War-era strategy that could backfire with devastating results if the computer gremlins strike. "If Y2K breakdowns were to produce inaccurate early-warning data, or if communications and command channels were to be compromised, the combination of hair-trigger force postures and Y2K failures could be disastrous," said the author of "The Bug in the Bomb: The Impact of the Year 2000 Problem on Nuclear Weapons." Nuclear weapons systems are laced with embedded systems -- controlling functions such as ballistics and sensors -- that have not been declared free from Y2K worries, the report says. Most missles also keep track of time since the last monthly or yearly servicing, which could transform weapons into plutonium-packed paperweights if the systems shut down on 1 January 2000. A Defense Department official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said nuclear weapons systems have received the Pentagon's full attention and will be in good shape. He added that military leaders are already discussing Y2K issues with their Russian counterparts. Those assurances are not enough to allay the fears of Michael Kraig, the report's author. "There are two problems together that make up one big problem: The sorry state of the [Russian] program and the fact that they don't know information about it," said Kraig, a BASIC fellow. "They're still committed to launch-on-warning and hair-trigger alert status. That, combined with the fact that their program is in such a sorry state, makes us worry." BASIC lobbies for international agreements restricting arms sales and supports complete nuclear disarmament. The Defense Department has been battling accusations that it lags behind other federal agencies in making Y2K repairs, something the agency's top officials are acutely aware of. "I think we're probably going to be the poster child for failure," John Hamre, deputy secretary of defense, told Fortune 500 executives in July. "Nobody cares if the Park Services computers don't come on. OK? But what's going to happen if some do in the [Department of Defense]?" The Clinton administration's September quarterly report on federal agencies says: "The Department of Defense has a massive Year 2000 challenge which must be accomplished on a tight schedule. The Department has improved its rate of progress in addressing the challenge, but the pace must be increased to meet government-wide milestones." The administration's report says that as of this summer, 42 percent of the Pentagon's most vital systems -- 2,965 in all -- have been Y2K cleared. But numbers alone don't reveal the complexity of the Defense Department's Y2K woes, Kraig argues. "There are severe and recurring problems across the entire DOD Y2K remediation program, including ill-defined concepts and operating procedures, ad-hoc funding and spotty estimates for final costs, lax management, insufficient standards for declaring systems 'Y2K compliant,' insufficient contingency planning in case of Y2K-related failures, and poor inter-departmental communications," Kraig wrote. In the preface, Paul Warnke, BASIC's president and chief arms-control negotiator under President Carter, says: "The only prudent course may be to de-alert those nuclear systems where date-related malfunctioning in associated command, control, and communications systems poses even a remote possibility of accidental launch." Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. All rights reserved. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:10:27 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:10:27 +0800 Subject: IP: [FP] Governors push national ID plan - WND Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA01034@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "ScanThisNews" Subject: IP: [FP] Governors push national ID plan - WND Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:44:40 -0600 To: ignition-point at majordomo.pobox.com SCAN THIS NEWS FRIDAY NOVEMBER 13, 1998 [excerpts from:] Governors push national ID plan Rewrite of executive order could be key http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981113_xex_governors_pu.shtml By David M. Bresnahan Copyright 1998 WorldNetDaily.com The National Governors Association would like to have a national ID system, and plans to work with the White House to reinstate Executive Order 13083 to make that a reality. The bipartisan NGA is claiming much of the credit for stopping Executive Order 13083, but they also plan to help craft a revised version of the order that will alter the relationship between states and the federal government. An internal document used by the NGA to inform all governors of their goals and objectives was made available to WorldNetDaily, along with a "Fact Sheet on Federalism" used by the White House staff. Both documents were provided by a Republican source. Each document shows that both the White House, and the nation's Governors, plan to put the currently suspended executive order into effect. [snip] "This is because of demands by citizens, businesses, and the federal government to make all government more accessible and open," claims the NGA. "Pressures for uniformity and simplification come from globalization in trade and telecommunications policy, regional environmental quality solutions, and a greater need for some type of personal identification mechanism to combat fraud, crime, illegal immigration, and mismanagement of funds. [snip] Congress passed the "Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996," which authorized the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the Department of Transportation to establish a national ID system through the use of driver's licenses. Those guidelines are spelled out in Section 656 (b) of the act. They include the use of Social Security numbers on all licenses, and in all data bases beginning Oct. 1, 2000. The act also calls for digitized biometric information to be a part of each license, or "smart card." The biometric information will include fingerprints, retina scans, DNA prints, and other similar information. Thousands of letters of protest were received by the Department of Transportation during a public comment period, which concluded in October. The exposure of the plan in WorldNetDaily, and the outcry that followed, prompted Congress to place a moratorium on the national ID, as well as the medical ID law. [snip] Congress included three clauses in the omnibus appropriations bill to withhold funds for implementation of the national ID, medical ID and Executive Order 13083. Apparently the governors are not pleased with those actions, according to their document. [snip] The documents obtained by WorldNetDaily clearly show that the NGA would like to facilitate a national ID system, and the organization believes Executive Order 13083, with some revisions, is needed to facilitate that. ------------------------------------------ David M. Bresnahan (David at talkusa.com) is a contributing editor of WorldNetDaily.com, is the author of "Cover Up: The Art and Science of Political Deception," and offers a monthly newsletter "Talk USA Investigative Reports." David M. Bresnahan - Investigative Journalist P.O. Box 1168, West Jordan, UT 84084-7168 off: (801) 562-5362 fax: (801) 562-1341 book orders: 800-338-8824 website: http://talkusa.com e-mail: david at talkusa.com ------------------------------------------ For more on the NGA, go to their web page at: http://www.nga.org/ where you'll find articles on such tipics as: "o Voice of the Governors: 50 States Surge Past Deadline To Extend Children� s Health "o News: Governors Report on Legislative Record and Condition of the Federal-State Partnership "o Policy Forum: New Flexibility, New Opportunities: Strengthening State-Local Workforce Systems Using the Workforce Investment Act [Thanks to Jim Groom for the article link] ======================================================================= Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. ======================================================================= Reply to: ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:10:35 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:10:35 +0800 Subject: IP: Stranger than fiction.... Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA00977@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Stranger than fiction.... Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:09:20 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: London Times http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?2182225 Computer bobbies to take over from PCs POLICE in Greater Manchester are to test plans to replace some police stations with unstaffed computer kiosks that resemble hole-in-the-wall bank machines. People anxious to report an emergency or speak to a policeman would use a touch screen to be put through by telephone, and eventually by video link, to the nearest control room. They would be able to ask the time or receive directions electronically, at the touch of the screen. Senior officers believe that the machines, known as customer interaction points or communications kiosks, will appear in every high street and will become as familiar as cash machines and the old blue police boxes. The hole-in- the- wall proposals - which will be tested in Salford as part of a plan to reduce the number of police stations - grew from a review of the Greater Manchester Police force's property as part of a budget crisis. Supporters of the plan insist that the need to cut costs is only a means to push through an inevitable and welcome technological change which more adequately reflects changing police methods. Stuart Render, the force spokesman, said that most people reported crime, from burglaries to emergencies, over the telephone, and increasingly by mobile phone. They rarely needed to go to a police station, except to present documents. The kiosks would release money for frontline officers instead of tying it up in property. The first machines could be in libraries, supermarkets or on the street, he said. "In the future in every high street there will probably be some kind of hole-in-the-wall police contact point where you will be able to make contact with a 24-hour control room or find out things about community safety and so on. That way technology gives us flexibility and accessibility to improve our level of service and keep officers on the front line rather than having them manning police stations." The pilot scheme will be discussed as part of the larger rationalisation at a meeting of the Police Authority on Friday. Chief Superintendent Chris Wells, Divisional Commander in Salford, said: "None of the existing police stations will close until replacement facilities have been installed. "The vast majority of people that access our service do not visit a police station, they use a telephone. We are looking to increase our effectiveness and these proposals together with new technology will take us in that direction." He said people would be able to see town centre maps and get basic directions from the kiosks, as well as information on crime prevention, details about area constables, missing persons, Crimestoppers and witness support. Senior officers acknowledge that their biggest problem will be persuading a sceptical public of the advantages. Barry Evans, the force's director of information technology, is aware of the need to "carry a myriad of people" along with him and that the machines must prove their worth. Karen Garrido, chairwoman of the Boothstown police and community consultative group, based in Salford, is opposed to the scheme. Boothstown police station is scheduled to be closed within 12 months. She said: "I am totally against the closure. The people should be asked what they want and I don't think they will want a little box or a hole in the wall instead." A spokesman for Age Concern, which has offices in Eccles, Salford, said: "We believe it would be quite daunting for an old person who does not have a telephone to leave their home and use one of these machines." Copyright 1998 Times Newspapers Ltd. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:10:44 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:10:44 +0800 Subject: IP: U.S. Must Re-Think Strategy to Counter WMD Threat Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA01045@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: U.S. Must Re-Think Strategy to Counter WMD Threat Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:14:50 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: US Newswire http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/Current_Releases/1113-110.txt Weapons Expert: U.S. Must Re-Think Military Strategy U.S. Newswire 13 Nov 11:04 Weapons Expert: U.S. Must Re-Think Military Strategy to Counter Weapons of Mass Destruction Threat To: National Desk Contact: Paige McMahon, 301-320-8053. WASHINGTON, Nov. 13 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The United States must devise a military force structure that makes possible a rapid response to future crises involving the manufacture and use of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), according to Dr. Robert W. Chandler, an expert in the strategic use of WMD and author of the just-published The New Face of War (AMCODA). "The U.S. military mindset is rooted in conventional warfighting tactics," said Chandler, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel and former NATO advisor. "While we're waiting for carriers to get in position and making sure our fighters have a place to park, Iraq is working feverishly to hide and disperse the targets, which are the labs and equipment they use to manufacture biological and chemical weapons. At this moment, they're unbolting machinery and moving it to sheds, to civilian residential areas, and out into the desert. By the time we get around to bombing the factories, they will be empty." "Wouldn't it be nice to destroy their weapons of mass destruction before they are hidden? Targets are perishable, like vegetables and fruit. If you wait too long to destroy them, by the time you hit the target it's rotten. That is to say, they've been altered to the point where they have little or no value," said Chandler, who predicted Iraq's intent to use weapons of mass destruction to alter the balance of power in the region in his first book, Tomorrow's War, Today's Decisions (AMCODA, 1996). "Absent a U.S. ability to strike quickly and deliberately, we have no choice but Saddam's current game, where he plays the Roadrunner and we are the wiley coyote," Chandler said. "Saddam Hussein sees peace with U.N. weapons inspections as a losing proposition. From his perspective, the only chance to end the hated weapons inspections and end the U.N.'s economic sanctions is to force his countrymen to endure another bombing in the anticipation that it will satisfy world opinion, and lead to the lifting of sanctions. Dictators like Saddam Hussein need to pay off those who keep them in power military, police, and other elites with economic rewards. The sanctions cut into that ability and weaken his grip. "The U.S. must create a Global Reconnaissance and Strike Complex to develop the military strategy and fighting forces necessary to meet the challenges of WMD proliferation. We must mass firepower, not forces, and we must make time work to our advantage." ------ Dr. Chandler lives and works in McLean, Va., and is available for broadcast and print interviews. You may contact Chandler directly at his office, 703-356-6927 (evenings/weekends: 703-883-0324). For more information, contact Paige McMahon, 301-320-8053. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 11/13 11:04 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:11:52 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:11:52 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.39: Fed May Give FBI Access to Your Internet Voice Calls & Email. Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA01023@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "Ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.39: Fed May Give FBI Access to Your Internet Voice Calls & Email. Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:51:34 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.39: Fed May Give FBI Access to Your Internet Voice Calls & Email. News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday November 13, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: CNET news, November 12, 1998 http://www.news.com Fed mulls wiretap access to Net http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28695,00.html By John Borland, jborland at cnet.com Staff Writer, CNET News.com Federal regulators are struggling over a decision that could give the FBI and other law enforcement officials wiretap access to Internet voice calls, and possibly access even to the content of data messages such as email. The Federal Communications Commission [ http://www.fcc.gov/ ] released a proposal http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Notices/1998/fcc98282.txt ] last week for implementing the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), a measure that requires telephone companies to provide law enforcement with access to digital call information. But the report left untouched the issue of whether the FBI http://www.fbi.gov/ ] would get new powers to tap Net calls. An FCC staffer, who asked to remain anonymous, said the question of how Net calls will be treated remains wide open, and may be decided during another round of public comments. Congress passed CALEA in 1994, after law enforcement officials complained that digital technology undermined their ability to tap telephone lines. The bill was intended to give the FBI and other police agencies the same access to digital communications, that they already have to traditional phone lines. Yet the technological landscape has changed since Congress' action. Voice transmissions using Internet technologies have moved from hobbyists' basements and into the corporate mainstream. Companies like Qwest are building whole business strategies around Net-based telephony, while the amount of data traffic on public networks has soared. The FBI wants access to these Net calls, and the leading industry proposal being reviewed by the FCC allows this. But civil liberties groups warn that this access goes beyond the original law's bounds, which don't apply well to Internet communications. "Congress said very explicitly that the CALEA law was not intended to apply to Internet communications," said Barry Steinhardt, president of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "Over the long term this is the ability to get packet-switched data, not just voice information." The sticking point lies in the way that law enforcement gets its power to tap lines, and in the way that permission fails to translate into the world of the Internet. Many people associate a wiretap with a listening post able to overhear the entire content of a call. This type of tap requires a law enforcement agency to meet a fairly high standard of evidence, to show it needs access to a certain phone line. But the vast majority of wiretaps fall into a category known as "tap and trace," in which phone companies give up information about a call's origin and destination without giving officials access to the actual call. This type of access is much easier for law enforcement officials to obtain, as they don't require evidence as strong as what is needed for standard wiretaps. The "tap-and-trace" system doesn't carry over well to Net calls, which are broken down and transmitted in individual packets of information. Telephone company officials say it is impossible, at today's level of technology, for telephone carriers to hand over the header information in these packets--which would identify the call's origin and destination--without also handing over the actual content of the call itself. "For us it's impossible to do just the one thing," said Grant Seiffert, vice president of governmental relations for the Telecommunications Industry Association [ http://www.tiaonline.org/ ]. "Once you've opened the can of worms, the whole can stays open." The EFF, along with the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT), the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), and the Electronic Privacy Information Center(EPIC), have lobbied the FCC hard to keep Net calls out of the wiretapping law for this reason. "The FBI is saying, 'Trust us, give us the whole message and we'll strip out the call content,'" Steinhardt said. "We just don't trust them." For its part, the FBI says it needs access to the Net calls, or criminals will be able to hide in the telecommunications loophole. Officials have repeatedly said they will not violate court orders to look at the content of calls or data messages The argument doesn't sway civil liberties groups. "If it's not feasible, the telcos shouldn't have to hand the information over," Steinhardt said. "[The FBI] shouldn't be given access to information they're not entitled to." Comments on the issue of tapping Net calls, as well as the rest of the FCC's digital wiretapping plan, are due December 14. Telephone companies are not required to comply with the CALEA provisions until June 30, 2000. Related news stories � Dutch ISPs could face wiretap law April 14, 1998 http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21084,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel � FBI wiretap plan scrutinized February 16, 1998 http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,19177,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel � Dutch ISP won't tap email November 14, 1997 http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,16395,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel � Watchdogs howl at FBI wiretap plans August 11, 1997 http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,13264,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel Copyright � 1995-98 CNET, Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:11:57 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:11:57 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.38: NAI [PGP] FlipFlop Back to Pro Key Recovery Group Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA01011@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "Ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.38: NAI [PGP] FlipFlop Back to Pro Key Recovery Group Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:50:46 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.38: NAI [PGP] FlipFlop Back to Pro Key Recovery Group News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday November 13, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: WIRED News, November 12, 1998 http://www.wired.com NAI Back in Key Recovery Group http://www.wired.com/news/print_version/technology/story/16219.html?wnpg=al l Wired News Report Computer-security giant Network Associates Inc. has quietly rejoined a global coalition promoting a controversial technology that could give the US government access to encrypted data. Network Associates [ http://www.nai.com/ ], which owns cryptography software firm PGP and firewall vendor Trusted Information Systems, dropped out of the Key Recovery Alliance [ http://www.kra.org/ ] last December to protect the PGP brand, which some civil-liberties advocates say was tainted by its association with the alliance. Activists charge that the alliance promotes technology that poses a threat to civil liberties. The alliance says it is not a lobbying group but does support the concept of key recovery, a system in which a copy of the secret key that unlocks scrambled data is placed in escrow. "We would assume that the acquisition of Trusted Information Systems would be a contributing factor with the change of that policy," said David Sobel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "TIS is widely regarded as the originator of the whole concept of key escrow," Sobel said. Several executives are former employees of the National Security Agency, which is believed to be a prime advocate of key recovery in Washington. Currently, the Clinton administration bars the export of strong encryption products that do not include a key-recovery component. The policy has long irked security software companies who see the policy as giving foreign competition an unfair advantage. Civil liberties advocates dislike key recovery because they feel it is the start of a slippery slope toward so-called mandatory key recovery, which would give the government access to private data. While the Key Recovery Alliance says it is not a political action committee or lobbying group, the group is often held up by politicians as an example of industry support for the administration's policy. Last December, a Network Associates executive said the Key Recovery Alliance created a misunderstanding about the company's position on the issue. "We want people to understand that Network Associates' position and PGP's position is to encourage the government and industry to move towards a policy that allows export of strong cryptography without mandatory key recovery," Gene Hodges, director of product management at Network Associates, told Wired News last December. An attorney with the Center for Democracy and Technology said that Network Associates opposes mandatory key recovery, but that the company may be hedging its bets against future shifts in Administration policy. "There are other companies in the Key Recovery Alliance who are steadfastly opposed to the administration's policy and mandatory key recovery, yet I think they are part of the alliance because they feel they need to be," said Alan Davidson Lynn McNulty, director of government affairs for RSA [ http://www.rsa.com/ ] Data Security, said the company is likely not expecting negative political fallout, one year after the PGP acquisition. "The commercial [version of] PGP has kind of been absorbed [into Network Associate's product line]," McNulty said. "The personal verison kind of enjoys folklore status among the civil libertarians." No representative from either Network Associates or the Key Recovery Alliance was available for comment Thursday. Related Wired Links: Another Network Associates U-Turn on Key Recovery? 25.Feb.98 http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/10530.html Network Associates Disavows Key Recovery Tie: 8.Dec.97 http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/9010.html Pretty Good Privacy Not Looking So Great: 3.Dec.97 http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/8906.html Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:11:59 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:11:59 +0800 Subject: IP: Meteorites swarming toward us Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA01056@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Meteorites swarming toward us Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:35:17 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Connecticut Post http://www.connpost.com/local3.html Meteorites swarming toward us Saturday, November 14, 1998 By MARIAN GAIL BROWN Staff writer Early next week you might switch on your television only to be greeted by a big blank screen. When you pick up the phone to blast the place that sold you the thing, the line is dead. You get in your car to return that worthless object. You want the quickest route, so you hit a switch that displays a map, using a global positioning satellite, to direct you. Nothing happens. Is this Armageddon? Have aliens from outer space finally taken over? Well, the truth is out there. � Cue the X-Files music. � It's the peak of the Leonid meteor storm, arriving in our hemisphere early Tuesday and astronomers say it promises to be this millennium's last great pyrotechnic pageant in space . Thousands of meteors -remnants of comet Temple-Tuttle - will bombard upper levels of the Earth's atmosphere. While these shooting stars are expected to put on quite a light show, there is a down side. The meteors are the single greatest natural threat to 500-plus Earth-orbiting satellites. And some scientists say they could play havoc with satellites that deal with communication, navigation and spy technology. When the last major Leonid meteor shower took place in 1966, there were only a handful of satellites in space. Some 350 of the 500-plus orbiting satellites have a 5 percent chance of being struck by meteors or knocked out of service, according to projections. "It's like firing a thin shotgun blast into a really big flock of geese," says Ernie Hildner, director of the Space Environment Center, a division of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration that provides weather reports on space. "Everyone knows some of them are going to get killed or hurt. It's just a matter of waiting and seeing because we know it's going to happen, but we don't know which satellites it will affect." With plans by government and commercial industry to launch 1,200 additional satellites within the next 10 years, "space is definitely getting crowded," says Greg Hughes, a spokesman for The Aerospace Corp. The company, based in El Segundo, Calif., provides primary engineering, oversight and scientific expertise for all Department of Defense space launches. "And there's supposed to be another meteor shower next November. So, the question is: will this factor into satellite launches? We hope it will, because space is gradually becoming more crowded and the next time a major Leonid shower comes around in another 33 years, we may not be so lucky." To protect their multibillion- dollar investment in space, satellite owners have tilted many of their satellites so their solar panels don't take a direct hit. For instance, the Hubble telescope, made in Connecticut, will be shifted so that it faces away from the meteor showers. "The satellites that are up there are changing their orientation, especially if they have sensitive instrumentation," says Russell Patera, senior engineering specialist with the Center for Orbital Re-entry and Debris Studies. "That means that these satellites will be facing with their edges out. So, that if they are hit, hopefully, it will only be a glancing blow." More troublesome than a direct hit, perhaps, is the damage the space debris from comet Temple- Tuttle does. "It can vaporize into a thin plasma that short-circuits the electrical impulses of a satellite," Patera says, adding that such a disturbance also could knock out satellite transmissions. And what happens in the minutes after such an event could be critical to whether a satellite can be repaired, Patera says. "That's why satellite engineers everywhere will be constantly on call to protect their company's investments. There has already been a lot of pre-planning as to what to do [in a worst-case scenario], he says. "But everybody will be on the alert." The particles, burned off from comet Temple-Tuttle's 33-year orbit around the sun, will drizzle down on any spacecraft or satellites orbiting high up in Earth's atmosphere as close as 200 to 24,000 miles from Earth. Instead of seeing a smattering of meteors or, as they are more commonly known, shooting stars, stargazers in some parts of the world could see as many as 200 to 5,000 an hour, a veritable galactic fireworks display. The best viewing will be in Asia for this shower. For his part, Bob Crelin, 39, a graphic designer from Branford, is looking forward to the shooting-star show. "All you need is a blanket, some heavy clothes, something warm to drink and a really dark sky, away from the city lights," says Crelin of the Astronomical Society of New Haven. "It's best viewed without a telescope or binoculars because meteor showers occur across a vast distance. So you want to be able to see the whole sky, not an isolated part of it," Crelin says. "That's the best way to appreciate a shooting star, seeing it streak across the horizon." Crelin recalls the excitement of seeing a Perseid meteor shower as a child growing up in the 1960s as though it were yesterday. "I was on Cape Cod with my parents and we were driving back from someplace for dinner," Crelin says. "I looked out [of the window] and it was like literally raining stars all around us. They were streaking across the sky. And I remember thinking that this was some kind of giant fireworks show at first because this was the summer. I was just totally jazzed." Perhaps, that's what fuels his interest in astronomy. These days, Crelin owns four telescopes, some so powerful that they enable him to see beyond the Milky Way and our own galaxy. "I have one that lets me see things that are 50 million light years away," says Crelin, adding that for the Leonid shower he will take his own advice and leave all his telescopes at home. For his part, Michael Dzubaty, a medical office manager from West Haven, plans to camp out in a nearby park from midnight to about dawn. "This is the peak part of the Leonid period, which occurs only once every 33 years. Usually, what happens is you have a double shot of intense meteor showers" in two consecutive Novembers, Dzubaty says. No one is really sure whether this year's Leonid shower will be better than the 1999 one. "So, you don't want to take any chances missing either of them." But if you've seen one batch of shooting stars haven't you seen them all? "It's hard to put into words, but nah," says the 51-year-old amateur astronomer. "Imagine a series of shooting stars and then every once in a while a colossal fire ball like from out of 'Deep Impact' or 'Armageddon.'" Connecticut Post 410 State Street Bridgeport, CT 06604 203-330-6456 � 1998 Connecticut Post. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:12:33 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:12:33 +0800 Subject: IP: Text: Clinton Continues Nat'l Emergency on WMD Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA00965@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Text: Clinton Continues Nat'l Emergency on WMD Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:18:44 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: USIA http://www.usia.gov/current/news/latest/98111212.tlt.html?/products/washfile /newsitem.shtml 12 November 1998 TEXT: CLINTON CONTINUES EMERGENCY ON WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION (They continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat) (280) Washington -- President Clinton November 12 extended the national emergency regarding weapons of mass destruction that he originally declared on November 14, 1994 with respect to the unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States posed by the proliferation of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons ("weapons of mass destruction") and the means of delivering such weapons. Following is the White House text: (begin text) THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary November 12, 1999 NOTICE CONTINUATION OF EMERGENCY REGARDING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION On November 14, 1994, by Executive Order 12938, I declared a national emergency with respect to the unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States posed by the proliferation of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons ("weapons of mass destruction") and the means of delivering such weapons. Because the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them continues to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States, the national emergency first declared on November 14, 1994, and extended on November 14, 1995, November 12, 1996, and November 13, 1997, must continue in effect beyond November 14, 1998. Therefore, in accordance with section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1622 (d)), I am continuing the national emergency declared in Executive Order 12938. This notice shall be published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress. WILLIAM J. CLINTON THE WHITE HOUSE November 12, 1998 (end text) ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Nov 15 19:16:31 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:16:31 +0800 Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.37: Privacy Group Pushes For Hearings on ECHELON Message-ID: <199811160253.SAA01000@netcom13.netcom.com> From: "Ama-gi ISPI" Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 6.37: Privacy Group Pushes For Hearings on ECHELON Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:49:50 -0800 To: ISPI Clips 6.37: Privacy Group Pushes For Hearings on ECHELON News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday November 13, 1998 ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: WorldNetDaily, November 12, 1998 http://www.worldnetdaily.com Push for hearings on Echelon: Global spy system needs scrutiny, says rights group http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981112_xex_push_hearing.shtml A WorldNetDaily Exclusive Copyright 1998 WorldNetDaily.com By Stephan Archer In an effort to create some accountability between the country's citizens and the National Security Agency's top-secret global surveillance system known as Echelon, the Free Congress Foundation is urging that congressional hearings be held concerning the NSA's use of the system. Originally, Echelon was designed to spy on the Communist Bloc during the Cold War. However, since the end of the Cold War, the NSA has used it for other questionable purposes that include spying on the citizens of U.S. allies as well as the citizens of other countries, commercial spying, and even domestic spying. In essence, Echelon works through a series of high-tech spy facilities located primarily in five countries: the United States, Canada, England, New Zealand, and Australia. These countries, which are sworn to secrecy about the project in a secret agreement known as UKUSA, all actively take part in this encroachment of privacy into the lives of the people of the world by collecting virtually all fax transmissions, e-mails, and phone calls. Not even cellular phone calls escape the grasp of the Echelon system. "Obviously, we need to have these capabilities," said Wayne Madsen, who worked in the National COMSEC Assessment Center at the NSA's Fort Meade, Maryland, facility back in the 1980s and is currently a senior fellow at the Electronic Privacy Information Center. As an example of our country's need for the system, Madsen said, "No one can argue about using the system to counter terrorism. Where people will have a problem is where Echelon is used for political and business interests." The Echelon system gets most of its data by collecting all transmissions handled by the Intelsat and Inmarsat satellites, which are responsible for much of the electronic communication that takes place between countries. Earth-bound communication is sucked up and absorbed by other spy satellites that the NSA has launched into space. "It's a huge vacuum cleaner," said Madsen. Once these spy facilities collect the phone calls, e-mails, and faxes, of virtually everyone on earth, the Echelon system sorts them through a kind of filter system known as the Echelon dictionary. This dictionary looks for "flag" words in all of the transmitted communication. While it lets a majority of all collected material pass through its filter, it tags those that may pose a threat and tracks all subsequent communication coming from the source of the original "flagged" message. Concerning Echelon's inherent intrusion on people's privacy, Patrick Poole, the deputy director for the Center of Technology Policy at the Free Congress Foundation, said, "While we understand the need for the intelligence power embodied by Echelon, the indiscriminate use of Echelon presents major threats to liberty not only to U.S. citizens but to citizens around the world." And this threat is real. The foundation's report states that U.S. leaders have, in fact, already abused this awesome technology. For example, the report states the following: "In September 1993, President Clinton asked the CIA to spy on Japanese auto manufacturers that were designing zero-emission cars and to forward that information to the Big Three U.S. car manufacturers: Ford, General Motors and Chrysler." "You can assume that all major U.S. corporations are fed items of interest (via Echelon) from time to time to give them a leg up on international competitors," said Madsen. Although this may be seen as a strategic corporate weapon for American businesses, in reality, it's an example of technology that can get out of hand. For example, former Canadian spy Mike Frost stated in his book, "Spyworld," that in 1981, there was an "accidental" cell phone intercept of the American ambassador to Canada that resulted in the U.S. getting outbid by the Canadians in a grain deal with China. The deal brought in $2.5 billion for the Canadian Wheat Board. With this kind of abuse of Echelon's power, the question as to whether or not the U.S. government has been using this power for political purposes can be easily raised. This question is seemingly answered in the foundation's report. "The discovery of domestic surveillance targeted at American civilians for reasons of 'unpopular' political affiliation -- or for no probable cause at all -- in violation of the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments of the Constitution is regularly impeded by very elaborate and complex legal arguments and privilege claims by the intelligence agencies and the U.S. government," the report says. When asked if the system has been used by the U.S. government to spy on its citizens, Madsen told WorldNetDaily that he was sure it has been. "I don't believe that the NSA or the current Administration would hesitate to use this system on American citizens for their own agendas," he said. Outraged by this flagrant abuse of power illustrated by our country's elected officials, Poole said, "While the U.S. is the prime mover behind the Echelon system, it's shameful that the European Parliament is the body holding the constitutional debate in regards to Echelon today." A September 1998 report for the European Parliament by the Omega Foundation said, "Within Europe, all e-mail, telephone, and fax communications are routinely intercepted by the United States National Security Agency. According to the Omega Foundation report, it is this ability of the NSA that brings major concern to the European Parliament. In an effort to bring the issues surrounding Echelon to the forefront of American politics, the Free Congress Foundation plans to send out a report about Echelon to all of the 500 policy organizations in the U.S. as well as to select members of Congress. These select individuals include members from both the House and Senate intelligence committees as well as House and Senate Constitution subcommittees. Copies of the report will also be sent to the congressional leadership of both parties. Although the foundation is hoping to get some action out of these members of Congress, Poole said that support at the grassroots level of our nation's political structure will be a must if this issue isn't to end up buried by the intelligence committees. "For there to be any account and oversight to the Echelon system, the American people are going to have to contact their elected representatives in order to investigate the abuses that we know have occurred in regards to the Echelon system," Poole said. See Free Congress Foundation's report on Echelon at: http://www.freecongress.org/ctp/echelon.html � 1998 Western Journalism Center --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips at ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy at ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph Sun Nov 15 21:42:39 1998 From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:42:39 +0800 Subject: 0/1 knapsack Message-ID: Hey guys, I found this in a web site. |---v A knapsack that holds a total....and N indivisible objects.... My quetion is does indivisible means that the object cannot be divided as dividing a grain of rice? Does this imply I can divide an array of integers but not the integers? -------------------------------------------- If I'm going to use 0/1 knapsack algo then I'll just place a tag on each element let us say 1 for true and 0 for false? which ever element satisfy the condition? What is dynamic programming approach (wavefront calculation)? Is it with the use of pointers? or different concept? Thanks. Bernie From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl Sun Nov 15 21:42:55 1998 From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:42:55 +0800 Subject: Itchy Trigger-Fingers in DC Message-ID: <3143d573c2c0be736c2caf37ceea9ff6@anonymous> D.C. police top list of fatal shootings 'We shoot too often' November 15, 1998 Web posted at: 8:54 p.m. EST (0154 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- Police in the nation's capital fire their weapons at a rate more than double those in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago or Miami and kill a higher proportion of people than comparable police forces elsewhere in the country. An investigation by The Washington Post showed that throughout the 1990s, more people were killed by District of Columbia police officers per resident than in any other large American city. "We shoot too often, and we shoot too much when we do shoot," Terrance W. Gainer, the executive assistant police chief, told the newspaper. In the last five years, the Post said, Washington's officers fatally shot 57 people, three more than police in Chicago, where the police force is three times as large and the population is five times larger. Deaths and injuries from police shootings have resulted in almost $8 million in court settlements and judgments against the district in the last six months, the report said. "The spate of police shootings in the district this decade is closely tied to the training and supervision of officers and the way the department investigates cases and holds officers accountable," the newspaper said. It said police shootings began to rise at the same time the department added a large number of new, ill-prepared recruits and adopted the light-trigger, highly advanced Glock 9 mm handgun as the department's service weapon. On the other side of the coin, eight district police officers were slain in Washington from 1990 to 1997, a number the Post said was surpassed in only a half-dozen other U.S. cities, each much bigger than the district. After meeting last week with Post reporters to discuss their findings, Police Chief Charles Ramsey, who took office this year, tightened the department's policy on using force. He also announced that in January, the department will begin additional training for all officers in firearms and alternatives to the use of deadly force. Copyright 1998 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 15 23:44:35 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:44:35 +0800 Subject: Privacy and the internet In-Reply-To: <199811140949.BAA21751@toad.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981115145719.00944580@idiom.com> At 04:46 AM 11/14/98 -0500, Jason Burton wrote: >Does anyone know what I should do if someone was posting sensitive >information on a website? >And what if the webmaster of the domain doesnt respond to the request for >removal of information. >IS there something that say's what is and isn't able to be published >"personal information" on the internet. >If someone can reply I'd appreciate it. >Seeking council. They don't call this The Net Of A Million Lies for nothing :-) Depends substantially on what kind of information it is, what jurisdictions you, the web site, and the poster are in, and whether you're interested in seeking legal counsel as well as just hacker advice. IANAL, but there are a range of torts from libel or slander to invasion of privacy to emotional distress that sometimes apply, if you're into that sort of approach; if the person the information is about is a public figure, this seldom works, and if the information is true, you've also got a much more limited case. Alternatively, there's the Big Gun Flame War approach of making sure everyone knows what an unresponsive loser the web site providers are, though that does lose the opportunity to quietly get the information to go away, even if it hasn't already been sucked down by Altavista, Yahoo, Hotbot, and DejaNews. Most web sites are either on big commercial hosting sites with relatively responsive abuse at wherever contacts, or else they're smaller sites which get connectivity and/or hosting service from larger providers. So find out who their upstream providers are, and talk with them about their customer. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 15 23:44:37 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:44:37 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters In-Reply-To: <199811111339.OAA22865@replay.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981115231531.00955100@idiom.com> >Jim Choate writes: >> What would be the responce of a anarchic system that was based on profit in >> regards something like Mitch's impact on Ctl. America and their plea for >> food and aid? I see three aspects in which government affects disaster aid in this case. 0) Some of the aid is being given to Central American governments for distribution, rather than to private groups such as the Red Cross; presumably this is because they've got a known infrastructure, they're easy to find :-), they won't rip off too much of the money, and also some of the repair work is fixing roads that they own, If Central America were anarchist, the road money would go to road-maintenance companies or collectives, and the rest would probably be handled between by the Catholic Church and other international charities, plus by the local charities which would be bigger because they'd be doing jobs governments do know. 1) Real charities have to ask people for money to do good things, while governments like the US's can just take and spend the money, and tell their subjects that they should feel good about it, and in cases like this, most taxpayers won't mind too much, though it'd be nice if the Feds would buy a few less nukes in return. Rampant theft is a bad thing for the economy in the long term, but short-term incremental changes can be relatively efficient. Also, in an anarchist society, charities would generally keep a reasonable amount of money on hand for emergencies like this, larger than they do today, but smaller than governments' slush funds. 2) There is some synergy between the skills and equipment needed for disaster relief and those needed for military adventurism, like transportation equipment, strong people, and medical supplies, and if the military aren't busy killing people and breaking things, they've usually got the spare time to go transport food and medical supplies and build the occasional road or two. Even purely defensive military forces aren't directly contributing to society sitting around idle - even a peaceful anarchist society needs some protection against invaders, though there are more efficient and safer approaches than a standing army - and even though they'd be smaller, they can still be helpful. This synergy does occasionally pay off in other ways - policeman are awfully expensive resources to use for directing traffic, but if they're going to be walking a beat anyway to watch for Bad Guys and be available when citizens need them, street corners are a fine place to do it. On the other hand, in a free society, the most common police functions are either not done (like drug wars) or done by the public (like stopping thieves on the street), and hired professionals can be used for higher-skilled activities, like detective work and bounty hunting. Meanwhile, in an anarchy, people would have more money, because they wouldn't be wasting as much of society's resources on unnecessary government functions (though they'd still buy the ones they wanted), and governments wouldn't be interfering with their businesses. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 16 02:02:02 1998 From: stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:02:02 +0800 Subject: Escrow - news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19981116092031.A3359@tightrope.demon.co.uk> cc: added to cypherpunks On Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 03:42:26PM +0000, Ross Anderson wrote: > On his most recent speaking tour of Europe, at which he promoted > PGP v 6, Phil Zimmermann assured us categorically that NAI had at > his insistence withdrawn from the KRA. > > It now appears that either (1) he lied to us (2) he was himself > lied to by NAI management or (3) NAI has rejoined. I assume you are refering to the meeting at Cambridge University that you chaired. My subjective impressions of that meeting were that PZ was certainly sincere. I seem to recall he told us that he was unware NAI had even orginally been a member of KRA until he was telephoned by a journalist in his car and was opposed to this. Presumably this was before NAI bought TIS and rejoined (?) I would add an option (4) PZ didn't know -- cockup not conspiracy But all this leads to a lack of confidence in the future of the PGP product, which is too precious to be left in the hands of one (American) company, whose policy is in doubt. I am not currently convinced by their actions that NAI are serious about strong crypto and I believe that a truly free and open version of PGP (GPG?) would be superior. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk http://www.pineal.com/ i would rather have my ignorance than another man's knowledge, because i have got so much more of it. -- mark twain From brownrk1 at texaco.com Mon Nov 16 03:52:22 1998 From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:52:22 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F858D@MSX11002> Closest ciommon relative of hemp is of course hop (*Humulus lupulus* IIRC) which is, as you all know, widely used to flavour beer. I believe it already has some THC content, or something very similar. Ken Brown Bill Frantz wrote: > > always thought that crabgrass would be a better carrier for > THC genes, and give the DEA maximum fits. However, > given that 5 states have passed medical pot initiatives, > one over the attempts of their legislature to destroy the > previous initiative, perhaps the DEA has enough problems. :-) From stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 16 04:20:28 1998 From: stevem at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:20:28 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F858D@MSX11002> Message-ID: <19981116115915.A5751@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 05:17:32AM -0600, Brown, R Ken wrote: > Closest ciommon relative of hemp is of course hop (*Humulus lupulus* > IIRC) which is, as you all know, widely used to flavour beer. I believe > it already has some THC content, or something very similar. lupulin ... I had a friend who claimed to get stoned off smoking hops and hop extract. There were inaccurate claims dating back to at least the 60s that hops could be crossed with hemp to produce a psychoactive plant similar to the recent Orange hoax. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk http://www.pineal.com/ the chief value of money lies in the fact that one lives in a world in which it is overestimated. -- h. l. mencken From inform at what2read.com Mon Nov 16 21:20:55 1998 From: inform at what2read.com (Information What2Read) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:20:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Black Book Source Message-ID: <36492CF3.8F99F883@what2read.com> www.WHAT2READ.COM Your on-line source for books by African Americans and other prominent blacks. � Find books to help you with your holiday cooking and entertaining; � Beautiful gift books, books for children and books for sheer reading enjoyment. � We also have book reviews and books listed by category including bestsellers biographies fiction--popular and literary inspirational � Over 400,000 titles available and all at DISCOUNT prices. COME VISIT US! www.what2read.com � LIST UNSUBSCRIBE ***************************************** You can unsubscribe from this list at: http://www.bidwhist.com:81/guest/RemoteListSummary/What2ReadGeneral What2Read, Inc. 5310 S. Cornell Ave. Suite 3 Chicago, IL 60615 � � � From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 16 05:21:46 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:21:46 +0800 Subject: BEATING THE TEMPEST Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- BEATING THE TEMPEST: December 1998 Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. Most computer users would be startled to realize that somebody parked outside their home with the right kind of (very expensive) receiving equipment can read the data that appear on their computer screens. The receiver uses the monitor's radio emanations to reconstruct the screen's contents. The U.S. Department of State and other organizations spend a fortune buying shielded hardware to defeat these signals, known as Tempest radiation, after the code name for a government program aimed at tackling it. Now Ross Anderson, a computer scientist at the University of Cambridge, and graduate student Markus G. Kuhn say they have developed methods for controlling Tempest radiation. What's different about their techniques is that they run in software, making them much cheaper and easier to deploy. The story began, Anderson says, when Microsoft made its $20-million investment in Cambridge's computer science lab and said the company was particularly interested in ways to control software piracy. Most approaches call for some kind of copy protection; Anderson's idea was to design something that would enable detection of offenders rather than prohibit copying, which is a nuisance loathed by consumers. Their concept was to make computer screens broadcast the serial number of the software in use. In principle, properly equipped vans could patrol business districts looking for copyright infringements. In researching the broadcast idea, Anderson and Kuhn came up with fundamental discoveries about Tempest. In particular, they observed that emissions relating to screen content are mostly found in the higher bands--above 30 megahertz, in the UHF and VHF bands. So altering those frequencies could change the Tempest radiation. Anderson and his colleagues have fashioned a couple of prototypes that rely on different frequency-alteration methods. One of the lab's prototypes, built using a black-and-white video display capable of monitoring and receiving Tempest radiation, filters the top frequencies. As a result, the fonts become unreadable to the eavesdropping receiver. On-screen, the fonts look comfortably legible and nearly normal. Filtering text requires display software that supports grayscale representation of fonts, but most computers have this ability. Therefore, Anderson believes this technology could be easily built into existing machines, although the fonts' interference with graphics makes it more likely they would be included in a security product than in, say, a general operating system. The second prototype takes advantage of the display technique known as dithering, a method of mixing extra colors from a limited palette based on the principle that if the dots that make up the display are small enough, the human eye will perceive the mix as a solid color. Given a monitor of today's high resolutions, the human eye cannot distinguish between a solid medium gray and a pattern of black-and-white pixels that adds up to the same gray. But the pattern of black and white is much easier for the snooping receiver to detect, one consequence being that the computer could be programmed to broadcast a different signal from the one that actually appears on the screen. The demonstration on display at Anderson's lab serves as a nice example, in which the word "Oxford" on the display appears as "Cambridge" on the receiver. Aside from stemming electronic eavesdropping, these prototypes could open the way to new types of security attacks on computers, Anderson and Kuhn suggest. A virus could be designed to find and then broadcast information stored on a machine without a user's knowledge. The game of spy versus spy goes on. WENDY M. GROSSMAN is a freelance writer based in London. - ---------- yeah, yeah....it's old news, but a new article, and from "Unscientific Scamerican" no less. Regards, Ken Williams Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/ E.H.A.P. Head of Operations http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org NC State CS Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ _____________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNlAdPZDw1ZsNz1IXAQFNNQf/Q23VtU0+xj6Cq4Eppm5TMqwd7DzE0k62 wR+hCqa7FXEEHbr+RSK7vdL3PmtaF6zUYAy9+Yn2C7lHnotVCRJ65hEIC+sDx5Rg AdF9Y8wCiGUenAeFr54uSz8amo6aKXB6eoAFxJSwqp2xsQMqn9rGcEMOUOLi/OtO b5Lj+e8gk9RREgjhPEIhHeVxqeJsKzB+A35FYr46T8du5+IYQyQucWGJEf/5zLga Cr1N/8oPOXU4x+o0eUQmafvWNTyvuScu9+QdLyKxhgeRQyOe7U/TljNcp6kJs0q8 D+qlEADpzbKdm8uNAv0e7xRDe5J+CCdEKhUzs0A76TgXR7g6c+Czjg== =KXvR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 16 05:36:17 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:36:17 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) Message-ID: <199811161315.HAA10512@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:15:31 -0800 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: Re: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters > >Jim Choate writes: > >> What would be the responce of a anarchic system that was based on profit in > >> regards something like Mitch's impact on Ctl. America and their plea for > >> food and aid? > > I see three aspects in which government affects disaster aid in this case. [remainder deleted] The question was how would an anarchic system work in this respect, not how do governments, relief organizations, and the general public act now. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ogrenivek at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 05:56:49 1998 From: ogrenivek at yahoo.com (Joel O'Connor) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:56:49 +0800 Subject: BIOS Message-ID: <19981116133827.5746.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Anyone know how to reset a BIOS password on a Toshiba Satellite Pro 430CDT laptop? Any input would be greatly appreciated. == Ogre bounces like sonar. . .Peace. Ogre _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 16 09:15:44 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:15:44 +0800 Subject: Haiku Message-ID: <199811161613.RAA08773@replay.com> Dear old method, Encryption from the old days Security once Read block, write block Quickly through the S boxes Look, no moving parts Particle flies Gas ionizes briefly Hear a speaker click Ron's bored today Security is algebra Algebra is good Pretty damn great Genie out, bottle broken Privacy for you --Tasty aliens certified my pugs From stuffed at stuffed.net Tue Nov 17 01:20:26 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED TUE NOV 17) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:20:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! 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In-Reply-To: <199811160253.SAA00989@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199811161652.IAA02780@smtp.well.com> I hope that in the future, "Believer" would see fit not to distribute Wired News articles in full. Not only does it violate civil and criminal copyright law, but it's also just plain rude. -Declan At 06:53 PM 11-15-98 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > >From: believer at telepath.com >Subject: IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom? >Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:27:52 -0600 >To: believer at telepath.com > >Source: Wired News >http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16217.html > >Y2Kaboom? > by Declan McCullagh > > 12:27 p.m.12.Nov.98.PST > WASHINGTON -- America and Russia should > shut down their nuclear arsenals rather than risk > Armageddon because of Year 2000 glitches, a > military research group says in a report released > Thursday. > > Y2K errors could cause the systems to go > haywire, leading to erroneous early warning > reports or even triggering an accidental launch of > a nuclear missile, the British American Security > Information Council warned in a 36-page report. > > Both superpowers keep their arsenals in a > constant state of readiness -- a Cold War-era > strategy that could backfire with devastating > results if the computer gremlins strike. > > "If Y2K breakdowns were to produce inaccurate > early-warning data, or if communications and > command channels were to be compromised, > the combination of hair-trigger force postures > and Y2K failures could be disastrous," said the > author of "The Bug in the Bomb: The Impact of > the Year 2000 Problem on Nuclear Weapons." > > Nuclear weapons systems are laced with > embedded systems -- controlling functions such > as ballistics and sensors -- that have not been > declared free from Y2K worries, the report says. > Most missles also keep track of time since the > last monthly or yearly servicing, which could > transform weapons into plutonium-packed > paperweights if the systems shut down on 1 > January 2000. > > A Defense Department official, who spoke on > condition of anonymity, said nuclear weapons > systems have received the Pentagon's full > attention and will be in good shape. He added > that military leaders are already discussing Y2K > issues with their Russian counterparts. > > Those assurances are not enough to allay the > fears of Michael Kraig, the report's author. > > "There are two problems together that make up > one big problem: The sorry state of the > [Russian] program and the fact that they don't > know information about it," said Kraig, a BASIC > fellow. "They're still committed to > launch-on-warning and hair-trigger alert status. > That, combined with the fact that their program > is in such a sorry state, makes us worry." > > BASIC lobbies for international agreements > restricting arms sales and supports complete > nuclear disarmament. > > > The Defense Department has been battling > accusations that it lags behind other federal > agencies in making Y2K repairs, something the > agency's top officials are acutely aware of. > > "I think we're probably going to be the poster > child for failure," John Hamre, deputy secretary > of defense, told Fortune 500 executives in July. > "Nobody cares if the Park Services computers > don't come on. OK? But what's going to happen > if some do in the [Department of Defense]?" > > The Clinton administration's September quarterly > report on federal agencies says: "The > Department of Defense has a massive Year > 2000 challenge which must be accomplished on > a tight schedule. The Department has improved > its rate of progress in addressing the challenge, > but the pace must be increased to meet > government-wide milestones." > > The administration's report says that as of this > summer, 42 percent of the Pentagon's most vital > systems -- 2,965 in all -- have been Y2K > cleared. > > But numbers alone don't reveal the complexity of > the Defense Department's Y2K woes, Kraig > argues. > > "There are severe and recurring problems across > the entire DOD Y2K remediation program, > including ill-defined concepts and operating > procedures, ad-hoc funding and spotty > estimates for final costs, lax management, > insufficient standards for declaring systems 'Y2K > compliant,' insufficient contingency planning in > case of Y2K-related failures, and poor > inter-departmental communications," Kraig > wrote. > > In the preface, Paul Warnke, BASIC's president > and chief arms-control negotiator under > President Carter, says: "The only prudent > course may be to de-alert those nuclear > systems where date-related malfunctioning in > associated command, control, and > communications systems poses even a remote > possibility of accidental launch." > > Copyright � 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. All rights reserved. >----------------------- >NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is >distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior >interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and >educational purposes only. For more information go to: >http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml >----------------------- > > >**************************************************** >To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: > majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com >with the message: > (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address > >or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address >**************************************************** >www.telepath.com/believer >**************************************************** > From bix at geekforce.org Mon Nov 16 12:36:49 1998 From: bix at geekforce.org (b!X) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 04:36:49 +0800 Subject: IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom? In-Reply-To: <199811161652.IAA02780@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote: # I hope that in the future, "Believer" would see fit not to distribute Wired # News articles in full. Not only does it violate civil and criminal # copyright law, but it's also just plain rude. Hey Congress gets to insert the full test of articles into the Congressional Record as much they want, why can't we? ;) - b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) From Marita.Nasman-Repo at DataFellows.com Tue Nov 17 05:01:08 1998 From: Marita.Nasman-Repo at DataFellows.com (Marita Näsman-Repo) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 05:01:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: MEDIA RELEASE: Data Fellows and Nokia Announce New OEM Agreement Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981117145845.00b6d100@smtp.datafellows.com> Media Release For immediate release Data Fellows and Nokia Announce New OEM Agreement Data Fellows' F-Secure SSH Client and Server To be Bundled in Three Nokia Router Product Lines Espoo, Finland, November 12, 1998 -- Data Fellows, the global leader in data security software and Nokia have signed OEM bundling agreement. Under the terms of the agreement, Nokia will bundle F-Secure SSH Server and F-Secure SSH Client software in each unit of various Nokia routing products: the Nokia IP400 family of router/firewall products, the Nokia VPN200 series, and the Check Point VPN-1 RemoteLink line versions of these products sold through various VAR (Value Added Reseller) channels. F-Secure SSH Client provides Windows, Macintosh and all Unix users with secure connections over the Internet and other untrusted networks to corporate resources running F-Secure SSH Server -- in this case, the Nokia firewall/router products. F-Secure SSH provides proven, ICSA-certified end-to-end security between the client workstation and the Nokia router/firewall unit, or any other server running the software. The software offers strong authentication and encryption based on industry standard algorithms such as 3DES, IDEA and Blowfish, as well as data privacy for all data transmission. All data, including the initial user ID and password, exchanged between the Client and Server flows transparently through an encrypted tunnel. The new OEM agreement is the second between Nokia Telecommunications and Data Fellows. The VPN200 series enables a company of any size to set up network connections to all plant sites, using maximum-security standards. Both product families are compatible, enabling simultaneous management and control. "F-Secure SSH has become de facto standard for secure remote administration, maintenance and management of crucial corporate resources such as firewalls, routers, switches, web servers and mail gateways," says Petri Laakkonen, president of Data Fellows Inc. "By bundling the software with leading router/firewall solutions, Nokia and Data Fellows will make remote maintenance and administration of mission-critical network resources much more secure, affordable and easier to adapt even to most distributed global organizations." "This co-operation will strengthen Nokia's security solutions. Our products are in use for data applications where security is of the utmost importance. We are pleased to be able to offer our customers one of the most advanced, secure range of Firewall systems on the market," says Brian NeSmith, Vice President, Nokia IPRG. With offices in San Jose, CA, and Espoo, Finland, privately-owned Data Fellows is the leading technology provider of data security solutions for enterprise networks. The company's F-Secure data security product line includes F-Secure Workstation Suite, consisting of malicious code detection and removal, unobtrusive file and network encryption, and personal firewall functionality, all integrated into a policy-based, centralized management architecture; F-Secure Anti-Virus, with multiple scanning engines (including F-PROT and AVP), is the most comprehensive, real-time virus scanning and protection system for all Windows platforms; F-Secure VPN+ provides a software-based, IPSec-compliant Virtual Private Network solution for large corporate networks as well as remote and small office networks; F-Secure FileCrypto, the first and only product to integrate strong real-time encryption directly into the Windows file system; F-Secure SSH, providing secure remote login, terminal, and other connections over unsecured networks (it is the most widely used secure remote administration tool); and F-Secure NameSurfer for remote Internet and Intranet DNS administration, with an easy-to-use WWW user interface that automates and simplifies DNS administration. Nokia is the world's leading mobile phone supplier and a leading supplier of mobile and fixed telecom networks including related customer services. Nokia also supplies solutions and products for fixed and wireless datacom, as well as multimedia terminals and computer monitors. In 1997, net sales totaled FIM 52.6 billion ($ 9.8 billion). Headquartered in Finland, Nokia is listed on five European Stock Exchanges and on the New York Stock Exchange (NOK.A), has sales in 130 countries and employs more than 42,000 people world-wide. For more information, contact Data Fellows Inc Petri Laakkonen 675 North First Street, 8th floor San Jose, CA 95112 tel 408-938-6700 fax 408-938-6701 Petri.Laakkonen @datafellows.com http://www.DataFellows.com or info at datafellows.com. Ms Arja Suominen, Vice President, Communications Nokia Telecommunications Tel: (Int.) + 358 9 5113 8193 Fax: (Int.) + 358 9 5113 8199 http://www.nokia.com http://www.iprg.nokia.com -- Marita.Nasman-Repo at DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com From jf_avon at citenet.net Mon Nov 16 14:01:15 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:01:15 +0800 Subject: Attempt by UK govt to plug tax hole... Message-ID: <199811162035.PAA21574@cti06.citenet.net> >From Caribbean Week, business section, updated Nov. 15 1998 (?) ================================================= Global initiatives present challenges to BVI BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS - Proposed initiatives created for "combating harmful preferential tax regimes" could present special challenges to offshore financial centres such as the BVI, Chief Minister, Ralph O'Neal has told the Legislative Council. While the BVI Government has been cooperative with the international community in its "ambitious attempts to create a new international standard," he said he welcomes the offer of the British Government to appoint a UK financed consultancy to ascertain the full implication the proposed initiatives will have on overseas territories. Initiatives arose from recommendations made by the Organisation of Economic Cooperative Development (OECD) as well as concerns expressed by the European Union, and the group of seven major industrialized countries, the G7. In September, a seminar was held to sensitise the overseas territories to the attitude of the international community, the UK Government's resolve to tackle harmful tax competition, and its commitment to work with the overseas territories to ensure that their concerns were factored into the ongoing dialogue on the harmful tax competition. Both the Director of Financial Services and the Financial Secretary represented the BVI. Of the concerns noted by the Chief Minister were OCED initiatives to counter the spread to tax havens and harmful preferential regimes, and the creation of an OECD list which classifies many countries including the BVI and other UK overseas territories as tax havens. He further noted "the fact that Luxembourg and Switzerland, both members of the OECD, could choose to abstain from adopting the report and from cooperating on the initiatives but still not appear in the OECD black list" is viewed by some persons as "proof of some hidden agenda by ... the industrialised world to reduce the attractiveness of offshore financial centres for legitimate cross-border business." "Our expectations of the new Labour Government are high. All we ask ... is to help us to help ourselves and to ensure that the competition for cross border financial services occurs on a level playing field," he added. A special public sector/private sector task force has been commissioned to brainstorm and develop the territory's response to the proposals. The Director of Financial Services is the chairman. Jean-Francois Avon, B.Sc. Physics, Montreal, Canada DePompadour, Soci�t� d'Importation Lt�e Limoges fine porcelain and french crystal JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers Instrumentation & control, LabView programming PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:0xC58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:0x5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C PGP ID:0x6CBA71F7:485888E9FD68415A2945 ACCB366D38486CBA71F7 From declan at well.com Mon Nov 16 14:21:22 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:21:22 +0800 Subject: IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom? In-Reply-To: <199811161652.IAA02780@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: <199811162120.NAA28775@smtp.well.com> The fact that one entity is enaging in appropriate behavior does not excuse the rest. -Declan At 11:30 AM 11-16-98 -0800, b!X wrote: >On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote: > ># I hope that in the future, "Believer" would see fit not to distribute Wired ># News articles in full. Not only does it violate civil and criminal ># copyright law, but it's also just plain rude. > >Hey Congress gets to insert the full test of articles into the Congressional >Record as much they want, why can't we? ;) > > >- b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) > From declan at well.com Mon Nov 16 14:43:39 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:43:39 +0800 Subject: IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom? Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981116163420.00af85b0@mail.well.com> Make that "inappropriate" behavior. >The fact that one entity is enaging in appropriate behavior does not excuse the >rest. -Declan At 11:30 AM 11-16-98 -0800, b!X wrote: >On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote: > ># I hope that in the future, "Believer" would see fit not to distribute Wired ># News articles in full. Not only does it violate civil and criminal ># copyright law, but it's also just plain rude. > >Hey Congress gets to insert the full test of articles into the Congressional >Record as much they want, why can't we? ;) > > >- b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force) > From strongintstock4j3s at mci.com Tue Nov 17 06:57:32 1998 From: strongintstock4j3s at mci.com (strongintstock4j3s at mci.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:57:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T D Price: 2 1/2 ($2.50/share) QNETD is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNETD has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNETD's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNETD is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quote.yahoo.com gg. From strongintstock4j3s at mci.com Tue Nov 17 06:57:32 1998 From: strongintstock4j3s at mci.com (strongintstock4j3s at mci.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:57:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T D Price: 2 1/2 ($2.50/share) QNETD is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNETD has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNETD's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNETD is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quote.yahoo.com gg. From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu Mon Nov 16 15:17:22 1998 From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:17:22 +0800 Subject: IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:20 PM -0500 11/16/98, Declan McCullagh wrote: > The fact that one entity is enaging in appropriate behavior does not excuse > the rest. I think it is appropriate. Take "Believer" to court and hope I don't happen to be sitting on the jury. Matt From jim.burnes at ssds.com Mon Nov 16 15:24:40 1998 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes - Denver) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:24:40 +0800 Subject: Attempt by UK govt to plug tax hole... In-Reply-To: <199811162035.PAA21574@cti06.citenet.net> Message-ID: > ================================================= > Global initiatives present challenges to BVI > > BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS - Proposed initiatives created for "combating > harmful preferential tax regimes" Man, that is what I call a loaded statement. It speaks volumes. > > While the BVI Government has been cooperative with the international > community in its "ambitious attempts to create a new international standard," First I heard about this. Is this some sort of NWO move to "harmonize" tax levels worldwide so that no one can escape their clutches? Someone should tell New Zealand, which apparently is rescinding income taxes altogether after 2000. > he said he welcomes the offer of the British Government to appoint a UK > financed consultancy to ascertain the full implication the proposed initiatives > will have on overseas territories. My guess is that the Cayman Islands are going to buy some political representation (as if they already haven't) > > Initiatives arose from recommendations made by the Organisation of > Economic Cooperative Development (OECD) as well as concerns expressed > by the European Union, and the group of seven major industrialized > countries, the G7. In September, a seminar was held to sensitise the overseas > territories to the attitude of the international community, the UK > Government's resolve to tackle harmful tax competition "Harmful tax competition". "Sensitise". ROTFLOL. > Of the concerns noted by the Chief Minister were OCED initiatives to counter > the spread to tax havens and harmful preferential regimes, and the creation of > an OECD list which classifies many countries including the BVI and other UK > overseas territories as tax havens. Countering tax havens with what? Gunboat diplomacy? Tax the hell out of your citizens or we bomb you! jim From jf_avon at citenet.net Mon Nov 16 16:04:16 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:04:16 +0800 Subject: Attempt by UK govt to plug tax hole... Message-ID: <199811162324.SAA26858@cti06.citenet.net> On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:13:46 EST, Nilsphone at aol.com wrote: >NOTE the word "harmful" below, used three times, mainly meaning >"harmful competition by offering lower tax rates". etc. OK guys, it seems the topic interests you... :-) I just thought of dropping it and see what happen... :-) Please *don't* forget to Cc me if you post only to Cypherpunks since I'm not on it anymore. I'm on e$pam though (e$@vmeng.com) Ciao jfa " There can be no compromise on basic principles. There can be no compromise on moral issues. There can be no compromise on matters of knowledge, of truth, of rational conviction." -Ayn Rand "The government has no source of revenue, except the taxes paid by the producers. To free itself -for a while- from the limits set by reality, the government initiates a credit con game on a scale which the private manipulator could not dream of. It borrows money from you today, which is to be repaid with money it will borrow from you day after tomorrow, and so on. This is known as "deficit financing." It is made possible by the fact that the government cuts the connection between goods and money. It issues paper money, which is used as a claim check on actually existing goods-but that money is not backed by any goods, it is not backed by gold, it is backed by nothing. It is a promissory note issued to you in exchange for your goods, to be paid by you (in the form of taxes) out of your future production." -Ayn Rand From Nilsphone at aol.com Mon Nov 16 16:18:37 1998 From: Nilsphone at aol.com (Nilsphone at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:18:37 +0800 Subject: Attempt by UK govt to plug tax hole... Message-ID: <8125e8d2.3650b1aa@aol.com> NOTE the word "harmful" below, used three times, mainly meaning "harmful competition by offering lower tax rates". Now, this is very interesting, if unsurprising. Theoretically, there is no particular reason why competition in tax rates, i.e. essentially in the provision of government services at a lower price, should be "harmful" in any sense differing from competition in supplying any other service. Naturally, the supplier of a particular service (or product) tends to think of competition in his own arena as "harmful", whereas competition in any other is generally a "public good". This is obviously nothing but self- serving; the putative robber barons of the last century presumably thought of competiton in petroleum, rail transportation and whatnot as "harmful", as did United and American when airline service opened to competition some 20 years ago. What makes the assertions of the British and other G7 governments particularly irksome is that they simultanaeously advocate competition in most areas, except their own, and at the same time make a - usually implicit - claim to represent some kind of public good, and a claim to holding the moral high ground. Regards Nils Andersson In a message dated 1998-11-16 12:34 Pacific Standard Time, jf_avon at citenet.net writes: > > From Caribbean Week, business section, updated Nov. 15 1998 (?) > > ================================================= > Global initiatives present challenges to BVI > > BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS - Proposed initiatives created for "combating > harmful preferential tax regimes" could present special challenges to > offshore > financial centres such as the BVI, Chief Minister, Ralph O'Neal has told the > Legislative Council. >............. > the UK > Government's resolve to tackle harmful tax competition......... > Of the concerns noted by the Chief Minister were OCED initiatives to counter > the spread to tax havens and harmful preferential regimes............ From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 16 16:42:40 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:42:40 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Newsgroups: talk.politics.crypto Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:28:04 -0500 (EST) From: "K. M. Ellis" To: protozoa at tux.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-cryptography at c2.net Crack open your palm pilots and take note! And please repost widely. Our mailing list (dccp at eff.org), along with the rest of eff.org, is sadly out of commission. DC Cypherpunks will hold a meeting at the Electronic Privacy Information Center office in Washington, DC. DATE: Soon! Saturday, November 21, 1998 TIME: 5pm Featured speaker: Richard Schroeppel, University of Arizona rcs at cs.arizona.edu The Hasty Pudding Cipher "NIST is organizing the search for a new block cipher, the Advanced Encryption Standard. The Hasty Pudding Cipher is my entry in the AES competition. The design goals for HPC are medium security, speed, and flexibility. Hasty Pudding works with any block length and any key size. It is optimized for 64-bit architectures, operating at 200 MHz on large data blocks. Hasty Pudding introduces a new feature, Spice, which allows useful non-expanding encryption of small blocks, even single bits. The cipher includes some unusual design principles." Location: Electronic Privacy Information Center 666 Pennsylvania Ave. SE, at the corner of Pennsylvania and 7th in South East DC Across the street from Eastern Market Metro station (Orange & Blue Line) To get into the building, go around to the 7th street side next to the flower shop and use the call box to call the EPIC office. We'll buzz you in. True to DCCP form, we'll probably hit a local resturaunt afterwards for dinner. If you need more explicit directions, please contact Kathleen Ellis at (202)298-0833 or ellis at epic.org. For more information about the DC Cypherpunks, see our web page at http://www.isse.gmu.edu/~pfarrell/dccp/index.html --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 16 16:48:02 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:48:02 +0800 Subject: IP: Feds Assault the Free Press Message-ID: <199811170017.QAA28789@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: Feds Assault the Free Press Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:34:40 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: Insight Magazine (published by Washington Times) Feds Assault the Free Press By Kelly Patricia O'Meara A journalist and his wife have drawn the wrath of federal law enforcement. Their 'crime': allegedly removing a tiny piece of TWA Flight 800 wreckage for independent study. It was FBI Special Agent James Kinsley who insisted the accused subjects be handcuffed and driven in separate FBI vehicles to U.S. District Court in Uniondale, N.Y. Secured by heavy manacles, the prisoners were paraded before media eager to get a look at the husband and wife team charged with the alleged crime of stealing evidence from the hangar where the wreckage of doomed TWA Flight 800 is being assembled. . . . . But something was very wrong. The prisoners were Jim Sanders, author of nonfiction books including The Downing of TWA Flight 800, and his petite, soft-spoken wife Liz, a retired flight-attendant trainer for TWA. The two spent hours in holding cells under the court house not far from where the 747 exploded in a deadly fireball on July 17, l996, before being allowed to plead not guilty to the government's charges. If convicted, this couple, who just celebrated their silver wedding anniversary, face up to 10 years in prison. TO ACCESS COMPLETE ARTICLE: http://www.insightmag.com/articles/story3.html ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Nov 16 16:51:23 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:51:23 +0800 Subject: IP: 61% of IT Professionals Plan to Pull Money from Banks Message-ID: <199811170017.QAA28800@netcom13.netcom.com> From: believer at telepath.com Subject: IP: 61% of IT Professionals Plan to Pull Money from Banks Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:05:20 -0600 To: believer at telepath.com Source: http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/3072 Category: Programmers'_Views Date: 1998-11-13 17:53:32 Subject: 61% of IT Professionals Plan to Pull Money from Banks Link: http://year2000.dci.com/articles/1998/11/11poll.htm Comment: In an on-line poll of over 6,000 IT professionals (high), 61% plan to take cash out of their banks. This is from DCI (Nov. 11). * * * * * * * * . . . Almost eighty percent are taking steps to minimize the impact of the Millennium Bug : 62.4 percent plan to avoid traveling by plane, 61.5 percent will withdraw money from the bank, and 58.6 percent will purchase extra supplies in case of a shortage. Link: http://year2000.dci.com/articles/1998/11/11poll.htm November 11, 1998 Pointing the Y2K Finger An online Year 2000 poll conducted recently by ZD Network News and The Harris Poll Online reveals a mixture of confidence and prudent preparation among a group of Y2K-savvy professionals. Of the 6,320 people who filled out the survey, 56.8 percent identified themselves as full-or part-time I.T. professionals. Not surprisingly, 84 percent claimed to have a "good" or "complete" understanding of the Year 2000 problem. More than half are clear on who is to blame. Sixty-one percent of respondents believe those who build, sell and use computers, along with business leaders, are responsible for the Year 2000 problem. And don't look to place the blame on Uncle Sam. Only 23.6 percent of those surveyed say they will blame the government in the event of Y2K disruptions. Happily, the news isn't all bad. A large percentage of respondents (75.2 percent) said their companies have taken steps toward Y2K compliance. Sixty-two percent believe their company will be able to make the necessary changes and create contingency plans in time to meet the Jan. 1st deadline. A healthy 84.8 percent of respondents whose companies are actively working on Y2K believe compliance goals will be reached. However, only 24.1 percent reported that the process was already complete. Over half of those surveyed feel they are more concerned about Y2K than the majority of people. But panic has yet to set in. When asked to predict the impact of Y2K only 21.3 percent said they thought it would be "very serious." Almost two-thirds believe the results of Y2K will fall somewhere in the middle ground between "negligible effects" and "doomsday." Respondents are taking precautions nonetheless. Roughly three-fourths of survey participants have checked their PCs for Y2K compliance. Almost eighty percent are taking steps to minimize the impact of the Millennium Bug : 62.4 percent plan to avoid traveling by plane, 61.5 percent will withdraw money from the bank, and 58.6 percent will purchase extra supplies in case of a shortage. � Copyright 1998 by DCI (978) 470-3880 ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo at majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email at address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email at address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **************************************************** From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 16 17:23:31 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:23:31 +0800 Subject: Non Explosive Weapons Message-ID: <3650C67B.358@lsil.com> John, NEW is such a goddamned brilliant acronym. Now I'll get in trouble if I start making *major cojones capacitors*. Mineral oil will become a controlled substance if possessed in quantities greater than 1/2 pt or used in any manner other than that described on the label. Vacuum pumps will be contraband. Like ROM burners. Danzig... > Above all, we should stop thinking and organizing in terms of > anachronistic distinctions between "here" and "abroad," between > "military" and "civilian," among "crime," "war" and "natural > occurrence." Nonexplosive weapons erode all such boundaries. > > This does not require the militarization of America. The protections > guaranteed in the Constitution against arrest and investigation > can remain strong. > Tune in next week when: ((( A == B ) && ( A != B )) == TRUE ) or how to babble BULLSHIT from a position of power. Either dangerous or stupid. Who pays his weekly check? I can't help but think that these guys are just looking for a new "main gig in life" that lets them shorten the commute between home and the war zone. Why don't they go start a war somewhere else? Here are some amusing sites - http://www.ntcip.org/ http://www.tcip.org/ Yet another infrastructure system getting ready for the hackers. Won't even be able to trust traffic lights soon. Yet another excuse for insurance rate changes. I guess I'd prefer automation with fewer features but better reliability and security to soldiers in the streets. No luck there though, too practical, it would be too inexpensive and what would we do with all those soldiers? Mike The Danzig's Dictionary good == bad there == here imaginary == real speech == threat thought == terrorism civilian == suspect suspect == convict yours == ours ours == mine mine == mineallmine Not up to Bierce specs, sadly From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 16 17:45:47 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:45:47 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:50 AM -0500 11/14/98, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 12:18 PM 11/11/98 -0500, Petro or other people wrote: >> Sub-contracting can often lead to cost savings. For instance, >>instead of each insurer having their own fire station network, they could >>all share one, and only pay a certain cost-per-subscriber. > >Government subcontracting can be yet another excuse for graft and kickbacks >or it can be an opportunity for the private sector to seriously compete >for government business, or at least an opportunity to compete for graft :-) >Sometimes this can save money for the public, though seldom as much >as letting services be provided by the private sector. We weren't talking about Government Contracting (which I'll agree with you would be politely called a scam), but rather in a crypto-anarchic enviroment whereby an insurer or several insurers would pay a subcontractor (the local fire prevention/suppression company). >>>> Looking different is not illegal. >What's that, white boy? It's not illegal for me to die my hair Green and Pick, and wear a Tutu and black patent leather pumps. In this case, it probably should be, but isn't. >>>> Thinking different is not illegal. >Always has been, anywhere, any time.... Not in any legal book in this country. >> Listen Fuckwad: >> (1) there are paved roads from one coast to the other, as well as >>railways. >> (3) Most of the roads being built with federal funds are for >>"congestion relief", not roads to new places so troops can move. > >Of course they are, and everybody's pretty much known it all along, >but "defense" was the excuse used for having the Feds get into the >road-building business on a much more massive scale than ever before. >Much of it corresponded nicely with "urban renewal", the 60s policy >of making cities more beautiful by replacing black peoples' houses with >freeways. Once (white) people got used to freeways, they mostly >stopped complaining about expenditures, and started complaining that >they didn't have _their_ freeway yet. So it's time for the feds to get out. We can't afford more roads, and they aren't needed. >> The Army. Marines, and National Guard are fully capable of getting >>whereever they need to go with our without the current highway system, if >>they weren't they'd be worthless. >No, but the industrial base that keeps the military functioning >does benefit from the highway system. It benefits far more from the rapidly deteriorating rail system, and besides, we have enough roads. >> (2) There hasn't been a war fought on CONUS since we attacked Mexico. >Excuse me? Are you talking about some recent attack on Mexico, >or are you referring to the Mexican War of 1846? Actually, I was thinking of the one that Teddy Rossevelt was in, unless I have my history confused. >Or are you contending that the Confederate States weren't part of the >Contiguous United States, and therefore the Union's ReConquest >of the South wasn't in CONUS? Or that the Indian wars in the west >weren't wars, just Police Actions, or that the various ex-Mexican >territories weren't States yet, and thus not CONUS? If IRC, Roosevelt Attacked (or counterattacked) Mexico in the late 1800's or early 1900's. That would have been after the Indian Wars, After the UnCivil War. Anyway, there hasn't been a war fought on the Main Land USA in a LONG fucking time, and the next one's going to be another UnCivil war where the roads will help both sides. It's a crap excuse. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From guy at panix.com Mon Nov 16 19:45:51 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:45:51 +0800 Subject: vznuri Message-ID: <199811170312.WAA16677@panix7.panix.com> The cypherpunks list, believe it or not. ---guy Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Sep 28 20:36 321/17595 IP: The virtual president Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Sep 28 20:36 79/3123 IP: NATIONAL ID Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Sep 28 20:36 223/9504 IP: Military's secret pla Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 00:29 143/6354 IP: NSA listening practic Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 00:29 105/4741 IP: Senate Passes Y2K Lia Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 00:29 112/5414 IP: Fwd: [Spooks] CIA Ope Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 00:36 99/3988 IP: Fwd: [Spooks] NSA All Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 00:54 141/6335 IP: [FP] National registr Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 01:01 110/4767 IP: Group 'No Privacy for Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 18:08 110/4714 IP: Secret Courts Approve Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 18:23 100/4856 IP: Army goes offline in Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 18:25 110/4919 IP: Chinese Govt Bans Con Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 18:41 112/5126 IP: Attn Should Turn to ' Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 18:55 118/5374 IP: Secrecy might be weak Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 19:00 127/5446 IP: Navy investigating GS Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 19:01 124/5481 IP: Courts OK record numb Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 19:23 112/5938 IP: Innovative Approach t Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 19:27 169/7133 IP: FW: Release: seizing Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 19:32 308/15711 IP: Big Brother Is Monito Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Sep 30 19:40 655/38595 IP: The Great Superterror Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 1 20:04 712/29029 IP: [Part 1 & 2] THE IMPE Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 1 20:17 129/5442 IP: Clear and present dan Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 1 20:50 221/8585 IP: Europe's Echelon eave Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 19:49 189/8609 IP: ISPI Clips 5.11: Cana Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 19:49 201/9263 IP: ISPI Clips 5.9: Canad Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 20:07 165/7272 IP: ISPI Clips 5.10: 'Dea Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 20:18 174/8292 IP: Got a Cause and a Com Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 20:23 154/7268 IP: CNS - Justice Departm Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 20:37 233/11556 IP: Wired News - The Gold Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 20:41 260/11948 IP: ISPI Clips 5.12: New Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 3 20:43 533/25290 IP: ISPI Clips 5.13: Iden Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 6 23:51 163/7361 IP: Cyberwar: Proper Vigi Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 6 23:51 114/5057 IP: "The Internet 1998: T Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 6 23:51 165/6251 IP: Did EU Scuttle Echelo Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 6 23:52 191/8744 IP: Heavy Leonid meteor s Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 6 23:52 161/8036 IP: Fwd: [Spooks] CIA nee Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 7 00:20 227/8036 IP: ISPI Clips 5.15:Priva Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 7 00:21 200/9659 IP: "Big Brother" Watches Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 7 00:22 148/5787 IP: New Surveillance Face Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 7 00:59 273/10144 IP: SOROS: Must have econ Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 7 01:00 287/14344 IP: Worth Reading: Fwd fr Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 7 01:09 509/21869 IP: Spycam City: The surv Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 7 01:14 472/21014 IP: Y2K- a futurist view: Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 8 17:38 65/2984 IP: Borderless World Talk Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 8 17:40 214/10771 IP: ISPI Clips 5.26: Coal Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 9 21:34 181/8420 IP: Canadian Military Rea Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 9 21:34 366/18076 IP: ISPI Clips 5.29: What Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 9 21:34 171/8006 IP: Privacy, Other Issues Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 11 01:46 129/7274 IP: This Country *Needs* Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 11 01:46 124/5312 IP: Different Approaches Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 11 01:46 201/8911 IP: Oops! Police Fire Tea Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 11 01:46 95/4639 IP: A Poll / A Thousand L Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 11 01:46 133/6607 IP: Congress Poised To Ap Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Oct 12 18:39 128/6122 IP: Tracking: Machines to Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Oct 12 18:39 174/7869 IP: ISPI Clips 5.30: U.S. Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Oct 12 18:44 144/6372 IP: Secret Marine trainin Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 18:10 259/13402 IP: Tracking: NYT on FBI' Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 18:11 76/3376 IP: Tracking: F.B.I.'s ne Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 18:16 210/9713 IP: Privacy Fears: FBI's Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 18:26 209/9563 IP: ISPI Clips 5.32: FBI Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 18:30 256/14040 IP: Fw: Every word on the Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 18:48 323/16174 IP: ISPI Clips 5.35: F.B. Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 19:11 420/17694 IP: "The Billion Dollar T Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 13 19:17 784/37858 IP: FBI Intentionally Obs Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 14 16:29 175/7603 IP: ISPI Clips 5.42: Poll Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 14 16:29 110/4572 IP: Fwd: 10/13/98 MSNBC S Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 14 16:30 148/6224 IP: Surveillance: Candid Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 14 16:34 220/9929 IP: ISPI Clips 5.38: TRUS Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 14 16:36 233/11213 IP: The Road to Biometric Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 16 01:47 72/3457 IP: ** National ID Alert Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 16 01:47 53/2539 IP: HOUSE APPROVES Y2K BI Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 16 01:47 61/2964 IP: ISP not liable for cu Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 16 18:19 167/8226 IP: Silent Weapon of Mass Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 16 18:20 208/9472 IP: ISPI Clips 5.47: High Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 16 18:19 167/8226 IP: Silent Weapon of Mass Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 16 18:20 208/9472 IP: ISPI Clips 5.47: High Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 20:45 92/4345 IP: FBI Says Some U.S. Ci Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 20:45 167/9391 IP: ATTN: Does Any Listee Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 20:45 116/5722 IP: One-Stop Shopping for Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 20:45 99/5051 IP: Tracking: Bar Codes/E Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 20:46 202/9270 IP: ISPI Clips 5.49: More Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 20:50 134/6125 IP: FCC To Propose Resolv Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 21:07 178/8868 IP: ISPI Clips 5.51: Your Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Oct 17 21:24 268/13202 IP: ISPI Clips 5.50: Nati Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 18 22:20 94/4275 IP: Fwd: Evaluation of Ve Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 18 22:21 102/5080 IP: 'Intelligent' compute Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 18 22:24 123/6385 IP: Tracking: Plastic Pas Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 18 22:27 140/5480 IP: High-tech Anti-crime Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 18 23:02 102/5080 IP: 'Intelligent' compute Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Oct 19 21:10 212/9989 IP: Brave New World of Im Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Oct 19 21:12 178/5676 IP: WEBSITE: Military Ope Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Oct 19 23:25 234/12001 IP: [FP] National ID back Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 20 17:40 52/2531 IP: Privacy Under Threat Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 20 17:41 132/6655 IP: Former FBI Workers Fi Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 20 17:42 194/9676 IP: Privacy Rules Send U. Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 20 17:45 203/8763 IP: Biometric Weekly: 10- Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 23 04:12 162/7357 IP: Enhanced Ability to T Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 25 01:42 135/6658 IP: FCC Proposes Rules fo Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Oct 25 01:42 101/5154 IP: Senate Passes Forward Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:21 226/9958 IP: CIA admits drug traff Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:22 177/8405 IP: 'Grass-Roots' Lobbyis Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:23 273/13170 IP: ISPI Clips 5.69: EU L Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:23 542/22831 IP: Bioterrorism: America Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:23 180/8338 IP: ISPI Clips 5.68: No D Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:23 117/5569 IP: [FP] Microsoft puts s Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:23 166/7339 IP: Cell phone tapping st Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Oct 27 22:25 159/6947 IP: Europe May Block Flow Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 28 23:28 52/2440 IP: Electronic March Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Oct 28 23:40 101/4255 IP: Congress to Get Echel Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 29 00:03 54/2733 IP: Crypt Wars, UK-Style Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 29 00:08 79/3609 IP: No dirty trick, just Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 29 00:12 128/5724 IP: Wanted: Y2K Workers Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 29 00:22 121/5855 IP: DNA bank launched as Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 29 00:23 151/8666 IP: ECHELON: America's Sp Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Oct 29 00:58 868/39860 IP: New Evidence Exposes Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 30 04:14 120/5665 IP: One Million Sign Peti Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 30 04:14 204/9156 IP: FCC Proposes Location Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 30 20:25 180/8027 IP: Internet Allows Lies Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 30 20:25 264/14432 IP: Cyber force behind pr Vladimir Z. Nuri Fri Oct 30 20:26 104/4335 IP: Thousands to Demand R Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 18:57 249/12405 IP: 18-year-old rebels ag Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 19:22 118/4744 IP: Anthrax Scare Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 19:31 93/5005 IP: Sen. Moynihan Warns o Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 19:54 112/5461 IP: Privacy: Dangers of s Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 20:03 125/5556 IP: [FP] R 141331Z-OCT-98 Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 20:05 119/5754 IP: More clinics receive Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 20:12 152/6895 IP: FBI: Anthrax Threat L Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 20:30 162/7955 IP: ISPI Clips 6.03: Priv Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 20:41 175/8944 IP: Farah: The cops are o Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 21:04 346/18519 IP: [FP] The DoD DNA Regi Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 2 21:05 625/27262 IP: Fatal Flaws: How mili Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Nov 4 16:40 174/7874 IP: ISPI Clips 6.05: U. o Vladimir Z. Nuri Wed Nov 4 16:47 307/15045 IP: [FP] L.A. DMV Tries t Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Nov 7 16:39 176/8125 IP: ISPI Clips 6.14: Anon Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Nov 7 17:44 256/9577 IP: Crunch Time for Y2K S Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Nov 7 17:45 472/23537 IP: TOTALITARIAN TECHNOLO Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Nov 7 17:45 120/5526 IP: Discover Alien Life W Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Nov 7 17:45 162/7283 IP: ISPI Clips 6.10: Wash Vladimir Z. Nuri Sat Nov 7 17:45 170/7785 IP: ISPI Clips 6.17: FCC Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 9 00:44 141/6402 IP: [FP] Free-Market.Net Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 9 00:44 193/9192 IP: Privacy Int'l Big Bro Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 9 00:44 257/12935 IP: [FP] Your Banker, the Vladimir Z. Nuri Mon Nov 9 17:17 173/8091 IP: NSA Threatens To "OUT Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Nov 10 18:33 81/4565 IP: Clinton Wants Loophol Vladimir Z. Nuri Tue Nov 10 20:15 130/6154 IPINFO: Re: IP: Clinton W Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Nov 12 20:25 55/2703 IP: World's biggest hard Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Nov 12 20:29 113/4701 IP: WiredNews: Virus Thri Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Nov 12 20:35 166/7882 IP: [FP] Scanner picks ou Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Nov 12 20:50 185/9136 IP: Clinton Point-Man on Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Nov 12 21:21 218/9416 IP: Push for hearings on Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Nov 12 21:22 209/9636 IP: ISPI Clips 6.28: Wire Vladimir Z. Nuri Thu Nov 12 21:25 247/11048 IP: ISPI Clips 6.33: Pate Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 22:02 107/4502 "IP: Text: Clinton Continues Nat'l Emergency on W" Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 22:02 199/8908 "IP: ISPI Clips 6.38: NAI [PGP] FlipFlop Back to " Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 22:04 247/11875 "IP: ISPI Clips 6.37: Privacy Group Pushes For He" Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 22:17 117/5653 "IP: U.S. Must Re-Think Strategy to Counter WMD T" Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 22:28 135/6239 "IP: Stranger than fiction...." Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 22:31 167/6675 "IP: Wired News: Y2Kaboom?" Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 22:49 165/7151 "IP: [FP] Governors push national ID plan - WND" Vladimir Z. Nuri Sun Nov 15 23:21 189/9276 "IP: Meteorites swarming toward us" From blancw at cnw.com Mon Nov 16 20:38:03 1998 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:38:03 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811161315.HAA10512@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <000401be11e0$df151580$368195cf@blanc> >From Jim Choate: : The question was how would an anarchic system work in this respect, not how : do governments, relief organizations, and the general public act now. ................................................ The answer is that you cannot know in advance. Since anarchies are not formal societies, there would exist no centralized formal structures, so therefore such behavior cannot be predicted. Responses to emergeny situations would depend upon the psychology of those who are living in anarchy. Predicting how they would "work", when no one is coerced to function, requires imagining the potential for normal responses available to those who are free from remote control, who can decide for themselves whether they care, and what they're going to do about it, if anything. .. Blanc From webmaster at starloop.com Mon Nov 16 21:46:07 1998 From: webmaster at starloop.com (Jason Burton) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:46:07 +0800 Subject: Privacy and the internet In-Reply-To: <199811140949.BAA21751@toad.com> Message-ID: Something I can tell you about this.. My name is Jason Burton; and this is the URL : http://exchange.worldaccessnet.com/dmca/narc.html that is posting the information.. Now, if that were you, what would you do? Thanks I'd appreciate any help... Jason Burton - webmaster at starloop.com PGP FINGERPRINT: 29B3 C18B 233E 7666 6BCF E9BF E5A4 CD93 C6E6 A77B At 02:57 PM 11/15/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 04:46 AM 11/14/98 -0500, Jason Burton wrote: >>Does anyone know what I should do if someone was posting sensitive >>information on a website? >>And what if the webmaster of the domain doesnt respond to the request for >>removal of information. >>IS there something that say's what is and isn't able to be published >>"personal information" on the internet. >>If someone can reply I'd appreciate it. >>Seeking council. > >They don't call this The Net Of A Million Lies for nothing :-) > >Depends substantially on what kind of information it is, >what jurisdictions you, the web site, and the poster are in, >and whether you're interested in seeking legal counsel >as well as just hacker advice. IANAL, but there are a range >of torts from libel or slander to invasion of privacy to >emotional distress that sometimes apply, if you're into >that sort of approach; if the person the information is about >is a public figure, this seldom works, and if the information >is true, you've also got a much more limited case. > >Alternatively, there's the Big Gun Flame War approach of >making sure everyone knows what an unresponsive loser the >web site providers are, though that does lose the opportunity to quietly >get the information to go away, even if it hasn't already been >sucked down by Altavista, Yahoo, Hotbot, and DejaNews. > >Most web sites are either on big commercial hosting sites with >relatively responsive abuse at wherever contacts, or else they're >smaller sites which get connectivity and/or hosting service >from larger providers. So find out who their upstream providers are, >and talk with them about their customer. > Thanks! > Bill >Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com >PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 16 21:56:25 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:56:25 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811101638.KAA18839@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981116173649.008a3d20@idiom.com> At 10:38 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Your right, let me spell it out. Free-markets as depicted by >anarcho-whatever theories legitimize theft, physical violence, extortion, etc. Nonsense. Governments are the ones who claim legitimacy for their theft, violence, and extortion. Free markets consider those things to be bad, though in some free markets they're for sale anyway. >They further a priori abandon any precept of social institution and >leave it all on the shoulder of the individuals. Nonsense again. Social institutions aren't a market issue, though some services provided by them can also be provided by markets, i.e. hiring people to do things. They're a social issue, and people will form social institutions to do things if they want. Absence of coercion doesn't mean absence of cooperation. Anarchists are perfectly good at having schools, churches, volunteer fire companies, theater groups, and soup kitchens, and they still raise their kids, live inside if they want, do fun things together, and do necessary things together. Just because you don't have a social institution that announces that it has the job of killing anybody who competes with it or fails to obey its proclamations of the will of the majority doesn't mean you don't have social institutions. >Additionaly they abandon such concepts of justice, equity, etc. >because they describe no mechanism to handle these issues. You've sure got the cart before the horse here. Most anarchists I know, whether leftists or libertarians, care more about justice and equity than any government I've encountered (maybe not more than the citizens ruled by the government, but more than the government itself.) We just don't think a State is a good or likely way to get them, given too much experience to the contrary, even if some occasional groups of people have some limited success running a limited government for short periods of time. > And finaly, they don't even attempt to recognize >the international interactions and cultural differences that drive them. You're building assumptions into your terminology here.... it's only international if you've got nations. But assuming you mean interactions between groups of people living in different places who act different, sure, we recognize them, whether they're across an ocean, or a Big River, or just across town. Doesn't mean we can't peacefully trade with each other, and doesn't mean that some of them won't occasionally try to rip us off. >They make the same mistake as every other form of non-democratic system, >they assume because it works for one it works for all. Huh? I've been told time and time again "This is a democracy, majority rules, it's America and you'll do it our way, love it or leave it, conform or we'll beat you up." Democracy means that other people can tell you what to do, and if it works for them you'd better hope it works for you because you're stuck with it. There are other systems where smaller groups of people can tell everybody else what to do, which can be worse than democracy, like monarchies or slave states, but somehow the purported "limited government" have been much less limited in theory than in practice, and justice and equity are for those people who are more equal than others. >Not even hardly. At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy. >Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're >willing to fund a bigger gun. A bigger gun than Congress can fund with your money and mine? Wow! >I'm going to stop now, this particular vein of discussion is bereft of any >and all positive attributes when one tries to justify slavery and theft. Wait, did the attributions get switched around here, and this line wasn't by Jim Choate? If not, what was your draft card number, Jim? Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 16 22:00:08 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:00:08 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811111618.KAA24654@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981116175329.008a3570@idiom.com> At 10:18 AM 11/11/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Read the 10th again you don't understand what it is saying. > >It *specificaly*[sic] says that unless the Constitution assigns it to the feds >*or* prohibits it then the states are *exactly* the ones that are able to do >what Congress is prohibited from doing. The states are limited by their >own consititions[sic] which are guaranteed to be representative in nature. >The states absolutely have the right to regulate gun laws .... >State regulation on speech, press, etc. are also completely constitutional The 14th supersedes this somewhat; states can't violate federal-constitutional rights in ways that they could before it when they had the 10th to permit them. > If you don't like your states laws move to one you do like. > >That's what it means to live in a democracy, freedom of choice - not >homogeneity (on this point ol' Alex was wrong, wrong, wrong). Some freedom of choice - if you don't like what the government forces on you, move. "Democracy" means that if 50% of the people vote for a system like that, you're stuck with it. Now, it's certainly better than systems like serfdom or Sovietism, where you weren't allowed to move either, and it's also better to have non-homogeneity available nearby. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 16 22:00:46 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:00:46 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811161315.HAA10512@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981116170417.008a3750@idiom.com> At 07:15 AM 11/16/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >> I see three aspects in which government affects disaster aid in this case. >[remainder deleted] >The question was how would an anarchic system work in this respect, not how >do governments, relief organizations, and the general public act now. Wasn't explicit enough for you, even with comparisons in the sections? Let's try again, then, deleting most of the how-it-works-today parts, and flagging the new material with ++ 0) If Central America were anarchist, the road money would go to road-maintenance companies or collectives, and the rest would probably be handled between by the Catholic Church and other international charities, plus by the local charities which would be bigger because they'd be doing jobs governments do know. 1) ++ They'd still have to ask, and people would be more willing to give, ++ because they know it's their job, and because they've got ++ more money that they're not wasting on governments. Also, in an anarchist society, charities would generally keep a reasonable amount of money on hand for emergencies like this, larger than they do today, but smaller than governments' slush funds. 2) Even purely defensive military forces aren't directly contributing to society sitting around idle - even a peaceful anarchist society needs some protection against invaders, though there are more efficient and safer approaches than a standing army - and even though they'd be smaller, they can still be helpful. ++ But yes, this part may be easier in a collectivist militarist society ++ than in a peaceful anarchist society. On the other hand, ++ even without socialized roadbuilding, there'll still be ++ road-builders who can be hired, and there may be more pilots ++ if transportation isn't a licensed activity, though ++ insurance companies (or self-insurance) reduce this effect a bit. ++ Also, without government-subsidized uneconomical roadbuilding in the ++ National Forests, there'd be more business for non-road-based ++ transportation of logging in remote forests, so technology ++ for doing that would be more developed. My guess is we'd have a ++ lot more blimps than today, partly as communications platforms, ++ though it really is faster to haul Hueys somewhere in a hurry. 3) ++ Better economies in Central America ++ I missed this entirely in my first analysis - part of the problem ++ has been the weakness of the Central American economies which ++ makes it harder for them to do their own relief efforts. ++ So much of that area is in bad shape because of US-supported ++ military regimes, either dictatorships and juntas, or places like ++ Nicaragua where the only way to get rid of the Somoza dictators ++ was for a bunch of Commies to overthrow them, which not only had ++ the devastation of a civil war and the inherent stupidity and ++ mismanagement of a Commie government, but also had a US embargo ++ against them interfering with the foreign trade that could have ++ helped pull them out of the hole they were in. ++ ++ How much of this would go away if either we were anarchist? ++ Depends on when you suppose it would have changed here, ++ but even 25 years of US anarchy starting tomorrow would be a ++ major help to Central America, by eliminating support for militarism ++ and by ending the Drug War (though that has more effect on ++ Mexico and South America than on Honduras and Guatemala.) ++ Without the Drug War in the US, prices of cocaine would be ++ low enough that they wouldn't displace food crops as much, ++ and marijuana and opium would primarily be grown in the US, ++ and drugs would probably be legal or near-legal in Latin America, ++ so there'd be a lot less corruption and violence associated with the ++ narcotics business, which would leave both hurricane-hit and ++ non-hurricane-hit parts of Latin America better able to fund recovery. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 16 22:06:11 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:06:11 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tinted oranges In-Reply-To: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F858D@MSX11002> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981116162959.008a1dd0@idiom.com> At 11:59 AM 11/16/98 +0000, Steve Mynott wrote: >lupulin ... I had a friend who claimed to get stoned off smoking hops >and hop extract. Back in the 60s (well, 70s) we could get stoned smoking just about anything; didn't matter if it was psychoactive or not, as long as you really _wanted_ to believe you'd get stoned from it. :-) I mean, if it worked with banana peels, it'd work with just about anything... On the other hand, an acquaintance of mine and some of his druggie friends decided to try smoking caffeine pills to see what would happen. Once. :-) You do not want to try this. He said it hits you with all the bad caffeine side effects, all at once. >There were inaccurate claims dating back to at least the 60s that hops >could be crossed with hemp to produce a psychoactive plant similar to >the recent Orange hoax. I have heard of people grafting hop vines onto cannabis roots, which can ostensibly get THC into the hops while looking like an innocent non-contraband plant. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From sunny at mail.gklub.com Tue Nov 17 14:09:46 1998 From: sunny at mail.gklub.com (sunny at mail.gklub.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:09:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Request Message-ID: <199811172209.OAA28463@toad.com> Greetings! I am looking for people who are serious about making money in network marketing. I would like to request the chance to send you information on the company that I promote. If you are completely happy where you are right now, then I simply wish you the best.Are you really making money? WHAT ABOUT YOUR DOWNLINE? If you are in any way dissatisfied or disappointed with your experience in the network marketing industry, please email me back so I can send you some information that could be the turning point in your networking efforts. If you would like to learn more about a company that is leading this industry in the right direction, please send a reply email back with"More Info" in the subject line. God Bless, Renee @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Required Sender Information: Imagetech Pob 1167 Atlantic Beach, N C 28512 919.493.3898 sunny at mail.gklub.com Further mailings to you may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply with REMOVE as the subj From bhurle1 at gl.umbc.edu Tue Nov 17 02:09:18 1998 From: bhurle1 at gl.umbc.edu (hurley bryan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:09:18 +0800 Subject: Does anyone have FTP acess to Litronic.com? Message-ID: I just picked up a Moniker Crypto Card, made by Litronic, Fortezza Compliant, PCMCIA v2.1 type 2 card. Seems all the software went behind a $600month, 6mo min, ftp site as of oct 1, 1998. I don't want to seem like a warez d00d, I am looking for software to use this card, or further info, but may be up the river. Its a risc processor in a card to do fast crypto and store info on it. Thanks Bryan From sorens at workmail.com Tue Nov 17 03:25:32 1998 From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:25:32 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) In-Reply-To: <000401be11e0$df151580$368195cf@blanc> Message-ID: <3651632E.E0474BB@workmail.com> Blanc wrote: > > >From Jim Choate: > > : The question was how would an anarchic system work in this respect, not how > : do governments, relief organizations, and the general public act now. > ................................................ > > The answer is that you cannot know in advance. Since anarchies are not formal > societies, there would exist no centralized formal structures, so therefore such > behavior cannot be predicted. Responses to emergeny situations would depend > upon the psychology of those who are living in anarchy. Predicting how they > would "work", when no one is coerced to function, requires imagining the > potential for normal responses available to those who are free from remote > control, who can decide for themselves whether they care, and what they're going > to do about it, if anything. > Simple, they would work anarchically. If the guy whose house is burning down is an assh*le, then let it burn. Somewhen in the last 50 odd years, equality of opportunity (to not be an assh*le), got confused with egalitarianism (all people get the same treatment, assh*les included). Anarchy is admitting that egalitarianism can never work without promoting assh*lism. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bin00003.bin Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2214 bytes Desc: "S/MIME Cryptographic Signature" URL: From riburr at shentel.net Tue Nov 17 04:05:37 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:05:37 +0800 Subject: Expect the expected Message-ID: <36516202.3AA7EE66@shentel.net> While visiting the Goddard Space Flight Center's website at http://pao.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc.html (for some Leonid lowdown), you are given an antiMiranda inoculation and subjected to a full cavity body search: U.S. GOVERNMENT COMPUTER If not authorized to access this system, disconnect now. YOU SHOULD HAVE NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY By continuing, you consent to your keystrokes and data content being monitored. 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Let us show YOU how to make YOUR computer earn money while YOU sleep! Call us now - 901-751-8800 http://www.alice.net ******************************************************************* From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 17 05:51:50 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:51:50 +0800 Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) Message-ID: <199811171319.HAA14962@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:53:29 -0500 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: Re: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed (fwd) > >State regulation on speech, press, etc. are also completely constitutional > > The 14th supersedes this somewhat; states can't violate > federal-constitutional rights in ways that they could before it > when they had the 10th to permit them. Where? Speech is a right not an immunity or privilige and the 14th doesn't extend a single right only federaly mandated immunities and priviliges. That is unless you're willing to let your rights become priviliges or immunities given by the federal government. Not exactly what a right started out to be. The 14th is great spin-doctor bull-shit. > Some freedom of choice - if you don't like what the government forces > on you, move. "Democracy" means that if 50% of the people > vote for a system like that, you're stuck with it. Actualy ours requires 75%. > Now, it's certainly better than systems like serfdom or Sovietism, > where you weren't allowed to move either, and it's also better > to have non-homogeneity available nearby. True, but this is confusing a particular implimentation (however flawed) with the principles behind it. Not the most accurate representation. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 17 05:51:54 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:51:54 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811171328.HAA15035@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:36:49 -0500 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > At 10:38 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Your right, let me spell it out. Free-markets as depicted by > >anarcho-whatever theories legitimize theft, physical violence, extortion, etc. > > Nonsense. Governments are the ones who claim legitimacy for > their theft, violence, and extortion. Nonsense, in this country the people chose to give the federal government specific duties in regards violence and when it could be used and how. It's nowhere near as one-sided as you would have anyone believe. > Free markets consider those things > to be bad, though in some free markets they're for sale anyway. I find NOTHING in free-market theory that says violence is bad let alone that it won't be prevelant. I hear a lot of folks claim this is the natural result but then again, that's what Trotsky and his ilk did back at the beginning of this century. Simply claiming something about a potential system is not the same as demonstrating that it actualy works that way. > Nonsense again. Social institutions aren't a market issue, They are if they impact what people do with their income. Simply saying that we're going to ignore the political and economic impact of a sector of human indeavour simply because it doesn't if within a nice little chart is a disservice. > though some services provided by them can also be provided by markets, > i.e. hiring people to do things. They're a social issue, and > people will form social institutions to do things if they want. Which takes money and time which has to come and go somewhere. > Absence of coercion doesn't mean absence of cooperation. Please demonstrate what about anarchy will coerce (there is no other term) individuals to do what is best for their neighbor. In the process you will need to demonstrate as well why other systems prevent or prohibit such expression currently. > Anarchists are perfectly good at having schools, churches, > volunteer fire companies, theater groups, and soup kitchens, > and they still raise their kids, live inside if they want, If taken as individual instances, trying to argue from the specific to the general in this case raises a whole can of worms that none of you are answering, though I must admit some very nifty side-steps. > Just because you don't have a social institution that announces > that it has the job of killing anybody who competes with it or > fails to obey its proclamations of the will of the majority > doesn't mean you don't have social institutions. Nobody claimed that Bill, straw-man. > You've sure got the cart before the horse here. > Most anarchists I know, whether leftists or libertarians, > care more about justice and equity than any government > I've encountered (maybe not more than the citizens > ruled by the government, but more than the government itself.) > We just don't think a State is a good or likely way to get them, > given too much experience to the contrary, even if some occasional > groups of people have some limited success running a limited government > for short periods of time. Explain how it works, it's that simple (and repeated for about the umpteenth time). I find another aspect of anarchism pretty interesting, that is the level of cooperation and homogeneity it would require for people to work together. They have to give up various expressions of their religions and personal beliefs in order to participate, othewise they let the assholes house burn or whatever. Sounds suspicously like socialism where each person is expected to participate and produce according to the good of the many. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 17 05:53:43 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:53:43 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) Message-ID: <199811171328.OAA17299@replay.com> Soren writes: > Simple, they would work anarchically. If the guy whose house is > burning down is an assh*le, then let it burn. Now you know why Choate fears anarchy. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 17 06:12:42 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:12:42 +0800 Subject: Some interesting computational articles [/.] Message-ID: <199811171338.HAA15187@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://slashdot.org/ > Linux at Supercomputing '98 Linux Posted by sengan on Monday November > 16, @03:14PM > from the where-we-kick-ass dept. > John A. Turner writes "Haven't seen anything on /. about how much > Linux-related stuff there was at Supercomputing '98 so thought I'd > mention it. One of the best things was a panel discussion titled > "Clusters, Extreme Linux, and NT". There's a nice summary of the > Linux-related events at SC '98 at the Extreme Linux site " Note that > reactions to Red Hat's support options announcements included One area > in which Linux is far ahead of the pack is clustering. Has any > participant written up a summary we could post? Update Rahul Dave has > written a report for us. > Read More... > 18 comments > Chaos in the Machine Science Posted by CmdrTaco on Monday November > 16, @02:19PM > from the science-is-cool dept. > carter writes "It appears Georgia Institute of Technology & Sudeshna > Sinha of the Institute of Mathematical Science in Madras, India, > published the first design for a chaotic computer. Such computers > could in theory could preform trillions of operations a second. Think > of how fast your kernels will compile with one of those things. :-) " > Read More... > 28 comments > Overview, Chip challange and Progress Hardware Posted by CmdrTaco on > Monday November 16, @10:45AM > from the stuff-to-read dept. > J Widjaja writes "Infoworld carries an article which describe recent > advances and challange on chip technology. This article gives nice > overview of chip industry direction." > Read More... > 11 comments ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 17 07:56:53 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:56:53 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811171524.JAA15577@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:17:12 +0100 > From: Anonymous > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > This is the central disconnect between you and the other side. You > obviously have as a core assumption that people should be /required/ > to do what is best for their neighbor. Not even close junior. > Most anarchists would reject that assumption. As would I. > Instead, an anarchist would say "The best thing I > can do for my neighbor (and the only thing I 'owe' him) is to leave > him alone." That is, I have no affirmative obligation to do anything > for my neighbor to make his life better. You also have no right to do anything to make their life worse either. THAT is my objection to anarchism, it has zero, nada, null, nul, nil, none, zipo recognition of others peoples rights and an individuals responsibility to respect them. It further refuses to recognize that to help others is to help oneself in many cases. Get your facts straight (but that's probably asking too much). ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 17 07:58:24 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:58:24 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811171517.QAA25352@replay.com> Jim Choate writes: > Bill Stewart > > Absence of coercion doesn't mean absence of cooperation. > > Please demonstrate what about anarchy will coerce (there is no other term) > individuals to do what is best for their neighbor. Jim, This is the central disconnect between you and the other side. You obviously have as a core assumption that people should be /required/ to do what is best for their neighbor. Most anarchists would reject that assumption. Instead, an anarchist would say "The best thing I can do for my neighbor (and the only thing I 'owe' him) is to leave him alone." That is, I have no affirmative obligation to do anything for my neighbor to make his life better. All that being said, it may be in my own best interests to do "what is best" for my neighbor; then, if my house should catch fire, I have a much better chance that my neighbor will help extinguish the fire. > In the process you will > need to demonstrate as well why other systems prevent or prohibit such > expression currently. Non sequitur. I'm pretty nice to my neighbors now. Aren't you? This has nothing to do with any government. The defenders/proponents of anarchy here aren't saying that government prevents the function of any of the anarchist mechanisms. Rather that government is an unnecessary and onerous burden on its subjects. > Explain how it works, it's that simple (and repeated for about the umpteenth > time). What's to explain? As has been described on this list countless times, the examples of natural 'anarchist' behavior abound in everyday life. Who makes you get up each morning and go to work? What is it that (only) government does that makes it possible for you to go to the grocery store, or buy gasoline, or go to the movies, or sell your professional services, or any of the other countless aspects of life that would go on with or without government? > I find another aspect of anarchism pretty interesting, that is the level of > cooperation and homogeneity it would require for people to work together. > They have to give up various expressions of their religions and personal > beliefs in order to participate, othewise they let the assholes house burn > or whatever. Why so? I do not share a religion with any of my neighbors, yet I would gladly help if one of their houses was on fire. I do not share a religion with most of the people I work with (or race, gender and other attributes); yet I have no difficulty working with most of them. What "expressions" would I see from my neighbors were it not for the Wise and Just Hand of Government? Or do you mean I should be /Required/ to live and work with people whose personal beliefs or religion I find offensive or repugnant? From stuffed at stuffed.net Wed Nov 18 02:18:39 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED WED NOV 18) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 02:18:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: 100S OF FREE PICS'N'LINKS EVERY DAY! Message-ID: <19981118081000.18355.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> + 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + BLOWJOB HEAVEN + BRIEN'S WORLD XXX + ANAL LAND + STAR WHORES + SEX THINKERS + NAKED BLONDES + ARNO'S STEAMY WOMEN + OBSCENE ORAL CUMSHOTS + HOT PICS + OBSESSION + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/4294.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/5854.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/11546.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/16620.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/23217.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From staym at accessdata.com Tue Nov 17 11:08:17 1998 From: staym at accessdata.com (staym at accessdata.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:08:17 +0800 Subject: 0/1 knapsack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3651BA33.7DBF@accessdata.com> P.S. If you're considering writing a cipher based on them, don't. Every knapsack-based encryption algorithm has been broken. -- Mike Stay Cryptographer / Programmer AccessData Corp. mailto:staym at accessdata.com From staym at accessdata.com Tue Nov 17 11:08:52 1998 From: staym at accessdata.com (staym at accessdata.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:08:52 +0800 Subject: 0/1 knapsack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3651B9D4.6061@accessdata.com> A knapsack is a container that can only hold so much of something. You have a collection of objects with a weight and/or volume and a value. You want to maximize the value. Fractional knapsack problems concern things like flour and sugar, that you can measure out a fractional unit of. In 0/1 knapsack problems, you have a collection of objects: either you put in the TV or you don't; no half-TV's. Quoting from _Introduction to Algorithms_ (Cormen, Leiserson, & Rivest), 'Dynamic programming, like the divide-and-conquer method, solves problems by combining the solutions to subproblems. ("Programming" in this context refers to a tabular method, not to writing computer code.) ... Divide-and-conquer algorithms partition the problem into independant subproblems, solve the problems recursively, and then combine their solutions to solve the original problem. In contrast, dynamic programming is applicable when the subproblems are not independent..." -- Mike Stay Cryptographer / Programmer AccessData Corp. mailto:staym at accessdata.com From mah248 at nyu.edu Tue Nov 17 11:35:18 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:35:18 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811171328.HAA15035@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3651C7E5.2C737F0B@nyu.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:36:49 -0500 > > From: Bill Stewart > > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > > > > Just because you don't have a social institution that announces > > that it has the job of killing anybody who competes with it or > > fails to obey its proclamations of the will of the majority > > doesn't mean you don't have social institutions. > > Nobody claimed that Bill, straw-man. Now wait a minute, which side was it that said that an "anarchistic society" was an oxymoron? You know, that we can't have a society without a state? The state is nothing but an organization which kills anyone who doesn't obey its will (however that will is determined, or however many orders it will give you before disobedience is fatal). By saying this, you *are* saying that it is necessary to "have a social institution that announces that it has the job of killing anybody who competes with it or fails to obey its proclamations of the will of the majority" in order to have *any* social institutions (i.e., to have a society). *We* weren't the ones who raised that strawman. ;) > Explain how it works, it's that simple (and repeated for about the umpteenth > time). We have, haven't you been listening? Michael Hohensee From mah248 at nyu.edu Tue Nov 17 11:42:21 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:42:21 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811171328.OAA17299@replay.com> Message-ID: <3651C408.69196C1F@nyu.edu> Anonymous wrote: > > Soren writes: > > Simple, they would work anarchically. If the guy whose house is > > burning down is an assh*le, then let it burn. > > Now you know why Choate fears anarchy. Fortunately for the alleged assh*le, there are likely lots of people (i.e. _firemen_) who are willing to come and put out his fire, if Mr. assh*le has contracted with them or someone else who has in turn contracted with them. If they didn't, they would be marked (correctly) assh*les, and nobody would contract with them anymore, and they'd get real poor real fast. Michael Hohensee From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 17 11:51:02 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:51:02 +0800 Subject: DCS-NY: Dec. 15 Meeting: Win Treese of Open Market Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: dcs-ny-announce at piermont.com To: "recipient list suppressed" Subject: DCS-NY: Dec. 15 Meeting: Win Treese of Open Market Reply-To: dcs-ny-rsvp at piermont.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) From: "Perry E. Metzger" Date: 17 Nov 1998 12:54:49 -0500 Lines: 110 Sender: owner-dcs-ny-announce at piermont.com [If you know of people who may be interested in this meeting, please feel free to forward this message to them.] The next luncheon meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of New York (DCS-NY), will be held on Tuesday, December 15th at 12:00. If you are interested in attending, please RSVP and send in your check (as explained below) as soon as possible. [Note: This month, DCS-NY will be on the third Tuesday of the month, not the second, because of scheduling conflicts.] This Month's Luncheon Talk: Does Internet Commerce Really Need a PKI? Win Treese Corporate Systems Architect Open Market, Inc. treese at openmarket.com It is now commonplace to claim that a "good PKI" [Public Key Infrastructure] is the technology that will enable the widespread growth of Internet commerce. But what does Internet commerce need from a PKI? Based on our experiences with many kinds of businesses, we will examine some of the real-world security requirements and how public-key systems may be appropriate or inappropriate solutions to those problems. Win Treese is Corporate Systems Architect at Open Market, Inc., (http://www.openmarket.com) a leading vendor of software for Internet commerce. At Open Market, he has worked on many different products and systems, with a particular focus on security for commerce applications. He has previously worked at Digital Equipment Corporation's Cambridge Research Lab and at MIT's Project Athena. He is co-author of the book "Designing Systems for Internet Commerce" (http://www.treese.org/Commerce). In addition, he chairs the IETF Working Group on Transport Layer Security (TLS), and is program chair for the 8th USENIX Security Symposium (http://www.usenix.org/events/sec99/). WHAT IS DCS-NY? The Digital Commerce Society of New York (DCS-NY) is a spin-off of DCS-Boston (DCSB). We meet once a month for lunch at the Harvard Club of New York -- usually on the second Tuesday of the month -- to explore the implications of rapidly emerging internet and cryptographic technologies on finance and commerce. If you are interested in attending our next luncheon meeting, please follow the directions located below. If you merely wish to be added to our e-mail meeting announcements list, you may send your e-mail address to "dcs-ny-rsvp at piermont.com". Perry PS We would like to thank John McCormack for his invaluable assistance in procuring the venue for our meetings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HOW TO RSVP: The meeting will start at 12:00 noon on December 15th at the Harvard Club, which located at 27 West 44th St. in Manhattan. The cost of the luncheon is $49.00. To RSVP, please: A) Send a check for $49.00 (payable to "The Harvard Club of New York") to: Harry S. Hawk DCS-NY LUNCHEON Piermont Information Systems, Inc. 175 Adams St., #9G Brooklyn, New York 11201 Please include along with your check: 1) The name of the person attending 2) Their daytime phone number 3) Their e-mail address B) Send an email message to dcs-ny-rsvp at piermont.com indicating that you have sent your check. The receipt of your check is your actual RSVP. We use the email to insure that nothing gets lost in the mail. You will get email from us once the check is received. Making final arrangements for our room requires that we have a good idea of how many attendees we will have. Because of this, it is very important that you RSVP quickly so that we will be able to get a larger room if necessary. All checks must be received no later than Friday December 11th. If you are uncertain that your check will arrive by the correct date, please use a messenger or express mail service. The late fee is $75 per person paid with a corporate check or money order. We will always try to accommodate everyone we can, even at the last minute. However, we can not guarantee that those who have not RSVPed will be seated. *Please* try to RSVP. Please note that the Harvard Club dress code requires jacket and tie for men and comparable attire for women. If you have special dietary requirements, please check with us by email before you RSVP. We are looking forward to seeing you! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Perry --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 17 12:01:06 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:01:06 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) Message-ID: <199811171915.NAA16466@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:00:53 -0500 > From: Michael Hohensee > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > > > Just because you don't have a social institution that announces > > > that it has the job of killing anybody who competes with it or > > > fails to obey its proclamations of the will of the majority > > > doesn't mean you don't have social institutions. > > > > Nobody claimed that Bill, straw-man. > > Now wait a minute, which side was it that said that an "anarchistic > society" was an oxymoron? It wasn't me, I said it was axiomaticaly contradictory. A oxymoron is two terms with contradictory meaning used together (eg deafening silence). You know, that we can't have a society > without a state? Than anarchy is sooooo screwed. The state is nothing but an organization which kills > anyone who doesn't obey its will (however that will is determined, or > however many orders it will give you before disobedience is fatal). That's your rather self-serving definition. A state, used as a synonym for government, has a much broader group of responsiblities. By > saying this, you *are* saying that it is necessary to "have a social > institution that announces that it has the job of killing anybody who > competes with it or fails to obey its proclamations of the will of the > majority" in order to have *any* social institutions (i.e., to have a > society). Demostrate please. I have not said, nor said anything that implies that. I have said that people have a right to self defence and as an extension the need of armies and other such institutions are an extension of that. I also believe that police should exist and should have the responsibility to use deadly force, just not in as many instances as now. Anarchist would leave it to the individual to decide, a bad precidence. > *We* weren't the ones who raised that strawman. ;) No, *YOU* are exactly the ones who raised it. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mah248 at nyu.edu Tue Nov 17 12:15:26 1998 From: mah248 at nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:15:26 +0800 Subject: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811171524.JAA15577@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3651CB97.A1032AAB@nyu.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:17:12 +0100 > > From: Anonymous > > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > > > This is the central disconnect between you and the other side. You > > obviously have as a core assumption that people should be /required/ > > to do what is best for their neighbor. > > Not even close junior. Is that so? Are you saying, then, that you aren't in favor of the "right to medical care", you were so big on earlier? You're saying that you don't support taxation to pay for this universal medical care? That's not what you said before. :) > > Most anarchists would reject that assumption. > > As would I. > > > Instead, an anarchist would say "The best thing I > > can do for my neighbor (and the only thing I 'owe' him) is to leave > > him alone." That is, I have no affirmative obligation to do anything > > for my neighbor to make his life better. > > You also have no right to do anything to make their life worse either. > > THAT is my objection to anarchism, it has zero, nada, null, nul, nil, > none, zipo recognition of others peoples rights and an individuals > responsibility to respect them. Since when have we said this? Just because I'm not *obligated* to help someone doesn't mean that I'm going to do anything to make his/her life worse. The lack of an obligation to help does not necessarily imply the existance of one to harm. Furthermore, if you'd bothered to read Anon's next paragraph (and you must have, you cut it out), you'd have seen an example of why it is in one's self-interest to help one's neighbors. We respect others because doing so increases the odds of their respecting us. This isn't a particularly complicated line of reasoning, and just about everyone understands it (unless, of course, they're anti-social statists, who imagine that force is the best solution to every interaction). > It further refuses to recognize that to help others is to help oneself in > many cases. You really *do* have a reading disability, don't you? Here, I'll quote what you appear to have missed: Anon wrote: :All that being said, it may be in my own best interests to do "what is :best" for my neighbor; then, if my house should catch fire, I have a :much better chance that my neighbor will help extinguish the fire. Ok, Jim, here it comes. The meaning of this paragraph is: to help others is to help oneself in many cases. You think we don't recognize this fact? Hell, we *rely* on it. > Get your facts straight (but that's probably asking too much). Read the entirety of someone's post without reading what you *want* the author to have said into it. Hell, just try reading *all* of a post before you say such silly things (but that's probably asking too much). Michael Hohensee From brownrk1 at texaco.com Tue Nov 17 12:36:39 1998 From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:36:39 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F8596@MSX11002> Michael Hohensee wrote: > Anonymous wrote: >> Soren writes: >> > Simple, they would work anarchically. If the guy whose house is >> > burning down is an assh*le, then let it burn. >> Now you know why Choate fears anarchy. >Fortunately for the alleged assh*le, there are likely lots of people >(i.e. _firemen_) who are willing to come and put out his fire, if Mr. >assh*le has contracted with them or someone else who has in turn >contracted with them. If they didn't, they would be marked (correctly) >assh*les, and nobody would contract with them anymore, and they'd get >real poor real fast. >Michael Hohensee No-one's yet noticed that my Jim's house burning down is a problem for his neighbours. Not just for the fear and distress it causes them but because the fire might spread to their houses. Which is why we have fire brigades. And why they are nearly always paid for out of tax. Almost the last thing in the world anyone does privately. Of course, that applies to cities, not to the country - but cities are where it's at. Ken Brown. From sorens at workmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:23:12 1998 From: sorens at workmail.com (Soren) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 05:23:12 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) In-Reply-To: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F8596@MSX11002> Message-ID: <3651EA63.6F2CC61E@workmail.com> Brown, R Ken wrote: > > > No-one's yet noticed that my Jim's house burning down is a problem for > his neighbours. Not just for the fear and distress it causes them but > because the fire might spread to their houses. Which is why we have > fire brigades. And why they are nearly always paid for out of tax. > Almost the last thing in the world anyone does privately. > > Of course, that applies to cities, not to the country - but cities are > where it's at. > Tax supported fire brigades are a very recent invention, and are often still privately run (at least in my neck of the woods). In the above circumstance (my [sic] Jim's house), one would have to weigh the relative risks against the possible rewards. If Jim is such an assh*le to live next to, I might be more inclined to soak my own house in the expectation that Jim will be hitting the road after his house has burned down. Given that humans tend to go in for self-organization, there are likely to be a multitude of societies that naturally form in an anarchy. Presumably they would be heavily ghettoized a-la Snow Crash, but there will always be plenty of room for various stripes of socialist/neo-fascists to form their own societies. What they can't do with impunity, is tell me that I am, ipso facto, a member of their society. Undoubtably they would be inclined to try, but in the absence of a highly organized and militarized support group, in the form of the 'monopoly merchants', they will have a harder time of it. Personally, I believe that states inevitably arise out of anarchic assemblages of societies. Chalk it up to human frailty. Where anarchy is beneficial, is in terminating obsolete state structures in order to allow newer and (hopefully) more appropriate social structures to form. The current form in the US is rather pathetic. A 'great society' that has as its paramount goal the perpetuation of a 19th century hierarchical model for human interaction. I would have said 18th century, but Abe took care of the restructuring 130 years ago. In the 19th century, the model for state formation was based upon geographical limitations. The technologies of the day meant that the territory you could force to knuckle under was severely constrained. Starting from scratch today, it would make more sense to create societies out of like minded individuals from wherever they live on the planet (and off it?). The phylums of the Diamond Age are, IMHO, a good model for this. This should give the socialists among us great cheer and hope. Rather than attempting to coerce all individuals within an arbitrary geographical region to knuckle under and pay taxes. I would suggest a good PR and proselytization campaign with the intention of recruiting good tax-paying and benefit consuming suckers -- er ... subscribers, wherever they may live. Its not like this model hasn't been successful in the past, viz: the Mormons, Scientologists, Roman Catholic Church, Marxism, the Moonies, Amway, Herbal Life, and certain aspects of the music industry. Think of it, rather than trying to disenfranchize 50 million north americans, there exists already a highly indoctrinated group of people in China (some 2 billion at last count) who would gladly subscribe to your brand of socialism, even if just to get away from their current model. At the very least, this would breathe new life back into Radio America. It would also legitimize the need for US military troops stationed in 100+ locations around the world. They could be seconded to the IRS to enforce compliance. On the other hand, maybe I'm missing the point. Maybe the use of coercion and force *is* the raisson d'etre for the state. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 17 13:31:24 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 05:31:24 +0800 Subject: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) Message-ID: <199811172004.OAA16707@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Brown, R Ken" > Subject: RE: Question about anarchic systems and natural disasters (fwd) > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:30:18 -0600 > No-one's yet noticed that my Jim's house burning down is a problem for > his neighbours. I noticed, it's been interesting the way it was dealt with... > Of course, that applies to cities, not to the country - but cities are > where it's at. We have volunteer fire depts. here in Texas (and most other states I've been in). Typicaly they have no equipment, no training, and no money. But, hey, they'll save the slab. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 17 17:20:41 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:20:41 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: declan at mail.well.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:44:01 -0500 To: politech at vorlon.mit.edu From: Declan McCullagh Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-politech at vorlon.mit.edu Reply-To: declan at well.com X-Loop: politech at vorlon.mit.edu X-URL: Politech is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ Cabe Franklin forwards this statement from Wes Wasson, director of marketing for Network Associates' security division: >"NAI officially withdrew from the Key Recovery Alliance in late 1997. In May >of 1998, NAI acquired Trusted Information Systems, which had been an active >member of the KRA. NAI subsequently reliquished the leadership role TIS had >taken in the organization. NAI Labs' TIS Advanced Research Division continues >to monitor the KRA's activities from a technical perspective, but Network >Associates in no way advocates mandatory key recovery." >- Cabe Franklin (NAI PR) >415-975-2223 TIS supports export controls on encryption products. My article: http://www.well.com/user/declan/pubs/cwd.shadow.cryptocrats.0298.txt -Declan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology To subscribe: send a message to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu with this text: subscribe politech More information is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From Announcements_reply at rpkusa.com Wed Nov 18 13:23:24 1998 From: Announcements_reply at rpkusa.com (Jack Oswald / CEO / RPK Security Inc.) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:23:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: RPK SECURITY ADDS NOTED XIONICS EXECUTIVE GARY AMBROSINO TO BOARD OF DIRECTORS Message-ID: <199811182105.NAA27862@proxy3.ba.best.com> You have received this message because at some time in the past your name was submitted to our e-mail mailing list database. If you do not wish (or no longer wish) to receive announcements, updates and news concerning the RPK Encryptonite Engine or the RPK InvisiMail e-mail security products, please forward this message to remove at rpkusa.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONTACT Paula Miller Lyn Oswald Nadel Phelan, Inc. RPK Security Inc. 408-439-5570 x277 212-488-9891 paulam at nadelphelan.com lynoswald at rpkusa.com FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE RPK SECURITY ADDS NOTED XIONICS EXECUTIVE GARY AMBROSINO TO BOARD OF DIRECTORS San Francisco, California, October 27, 1998 - RPK Security Inc. (www.rpkusa.com), a technology leader in fast public key encryption, today announced that Gary Ambrosino, recent vice president and general manager of Xionics Document Technologies (Nasdaq:XION), will join its Board of Directors. Following a recent round of seed financing, Mr. Ambrosino's addition to the Board is part of RPK's overall strategy to expand its management team. Prior to joining RPK, Mr. Ambrosino spent five years at Xionics where he led the marketing and early stage sales program for the company's Multifunction Peripherals embedded control technology. Mr. Ambrosino has headed several seed stage technology companies, and spent eight years with Hewlett-Packard. "We are pleased to welcome Gary to our Board of Directors," said Jack Oswald, president and CEO of RPK Security. "His experience in driving business development and his extensive industry knowledge will be extremely valuable in the next phase of growth and deployment of our Encryptonite software and FastChip encryption technology into applications like secure remote printing." "RPK Security has now reached, on schedule, several significant milestones," said Mr. Ambrosino. "These milestones include completion of a very low cost, high-speed encryption chip, the release of the Encryptonite development platform, and continued growth in acceptance of RPK InvisiMail, the world's easiest-to-use secure E-mail add-in." RPK's core technology, the patented RPK Encryptonite Engine, is an exceptionally fast public key algorithm for encryption, authentication and digital signatures. It offers a unique combination of the benefits of public key systems and the high performance characteristics of symmetric or "secret key" systems. RPK Encryptonite is available as a software toolkit or a high speed ASIC capable of large key encryption speeds of up to 100 megabits per second. Applications include streaming video and audio narrowcasting, secure cellular and satellite telephones, and VPN implementation. Developed outside of the U.S., the RPK Encryptonite Engine is available globally with strong encryption, unlike competing products that are restricted by U.S. export regulations. ABOUT RPK SECURITY Founded in 1995, RPK Security, Inc. is a technology leader in fast public key encryption. RPK's cryptographic research and product development is based in New Zealand, Switzerland and the U.K, with worldwide sales and marketing in San Francisco, CA. Contact RPK at www.rpkusa.com or (212) 488-9891. From vznuri at netcom.com Wed Nov 18 14:34:03 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:34:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: CJ Update In-Reply-To: <199811181521.KAA16375@smtp2.atl.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <199811182233.OAA08408@netcom13.netcom.com> the CJ update is sad/interesting. the story about the psychologist asking him about his tax resistance or failure to file a return is a big red flag. that's jim bell's problem. so it looks like a lot of this is about trying to scare the bejeezus out of people who think that paying taxes is bogus. notice how the psychologist implied that not filing taxes or being a tax protester is a sign of insanity.. well hell I'm sure that's what the english royalty felt about the colonies at the time!! we have met the enemy, and the enemy is us!! CJ complains that letters are not getting to him, or that his mail is being read. I propose CJ try to set up a secure conversation with someone and establish a code with the outside world. being a cpunk with a lot of intelligence he will understand this very well. also you could even set up codes in which you are not using actual words. but transmitting something else that the authorities will not interfere with, but which contains info. for example chess-by-mail moves could conceal codes. (I heard one rumor they were censored during WWII) also ingenious schemes could be used to determine if you are missing mail. CJ numbers all his letters to the outside world and uses a single point of contact to send mail to. that person also numbers all mail sent to CJ. CJ then knows what is not received. both sides should catalog/inventory what they are sending/receiving. if CJ is fighting the truth, I don't think he is wise. did he really plant a bomb?? if so, I think it would be wise to plea bargain on that one. CJ doesn't realize that they may have far more knowledge about what they can get him for than he does, and he may regret not taking a plea bargain down the road. CJ, don't try to be a joan-of-arc, or you might get burned at the stake. sounds like what would be very valuable to CJ right now is a little law books on the charge relevant to him, and maybe a book like "defending yourself in court for dummies" good luck CJ-- I think you will get out of the hole onto a strict probation, like Bell.. From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph Wed Nov 18 00:05:29 1998 From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:05:29 +0800 Subject: statgraphics.... Message-ID: Could someone give me a copy of statgraphics for dos or windows? I would gladly appreciate it. Thank you very much. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If a student is particular about his studies, especially while he is too young to know which are useful and which are not, we shall say he is no lover of learning or of wisdom; just as, if he were dainty about his food, we should say he was not hungry or fond of eating, but had a poor appetite. " ---- PLATO By the way, it's Bernie not Bernardo. metaphone at altavista.net `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph Wed Nov 18 16:54:10 1998 From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:54:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: manners.... In-Reply-To: <3653653A.1FD92C2B@students.wisc.edu> Message-ID: > Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: > > > > Could someone give me a copy of statgraphics for dos or windows? > > I would gladly appreciate it. > > > > Thank you very much. > > > > I will assume this is a piece of commercial software and respectfully > tell you to go fuck yourself. What kind of fucking list do you think > this is? Well I thought this list was a list of intellectuals, not only good in hacks and coding and programming and the likes but also well "tailored" with their manners, I have posted similar mails asking something but I have never received one like this. At least the less obvious thing to do is to ignore my message, simply delete it!, is that a hard thing to do? I have sent mails asking for something but it is OK with me if they are ignored. My apologies to the list members. Maybe it's time to REMOVE my name in the list. Thank you. It was nice having sent and replied by the members. Thank you for your great help especially for the last months. From jim at acm.org Wed Nov 18 17:26:12 1998 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: manners and piracy Message-ID: <365371F6.2D9A3CB0@acm.org> Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: > > Could someone give me a copy of statgraphics for dos or windows? > > I would gladly appreciate it. and then took issue with somebody obscenely taking him to task for asking these lists for a pirated version of this software: > Well I thought this list was a list of intellectuals, not only good in > hacks and coding and programming and the likes but also well "tailored" > with their manners, Bernardo, this package costs in the neighborhood of $900 US. What makes you think the mannered intellectuals you expect to find on these lists would either condone or contribute to software piracy on this scale? Or that they would not take violent verbal objection to the suggestion that they would do so? Take your piracy requests elsewhere. These aren't warez lists. -- Jim Gillogly 29 Blotmath S.R. 1998, 01:12 12.19.5.12.12, 4 Eb 5 Ceh, Ninth Lord of Night From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 18 02:46:34 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:46:34 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811180930.EAA005.87@whgiii> In , on 11/17/98 at 07:35 PM, Robert Hettinga said: >TIS supports export controls on encryption products. My article: > http://www.well.com/user/declan/pubs/cwd.shadow.cryptocrats.0298.txt I doubt that TIS really cares one way or the other so long as they keep their fat government contracts. Of course those same contracts require keeping the government happy (ie: supporting GAK), TIS and others (being the corporate whores that they are) will sell out their own mothers (and the rest of us along with them) if it looked good on the bottom line. A real shame that PGP had to get mixed up with these vipers. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From pleontks at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 18:59:54 1998 From: pleontks at hotmail.com (John C) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:59:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Re: Snowball fight '98 - '99 Message-ID: <19981119025920.3377.qmail@hotmail.com> > GOTCHA!!! > > \ | / > > \\ \ | | / // > > \\\ \\ // /// > > \\\ ####### /// > > \\## ##// > > -- ## ## -- > > -- ## squish!! ## -- > > //## ##\\ > > // ### ### \\ > > /// ####### \\\ > > /// // \\ \\\ > > // / | | \ \\ > > / | \ > > > > You have just been hit with a snow ball! > > > It's the start of..... > > Snow Ball Fight '98/'99!!!! > > > > One rule to this game.... > > You can't hit someone who has already hit you! > > Now...go out there and hit as many people > > as you can before they get you!! > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph Wed Nov 18 19:47:26 1998 From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 19:47:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: manners and piracy In-Reply-To: <365371F6.2D9A3CB0@acm.org> Message-ID: I don't intend to pirate anything or make someone do it in any case. Well anyway thank you for your reply. What I'm trying to point out is this it is OK with me if you say "Take your piracy requests elsewhere" it is not OK with me if you say " ...fuck yourself" gets? On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Jim Gillogly wrote: > Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: > > > Could someone give me a copy of statgraphics for dos or windows? > > > I would gladly appreciate it. > > and then took issue with somebody obscenely taking him to task for > asking these lists for a pirated version of this software: > > > Well I thought this list was a list of intellectuals, not only good in > > hacks and coding and programming and the likes but also well "tailored" > > with their manners, > > Bernardo, this package costs in the neighborhood of $900 US. What makes > you think the mannered intellectuals you expect to find on these > lists would either condone or contribute to software piracy on this > scale? Or that they would not take violent verbal objection to the > suggestion that they would do so? > > Take your piracy requests elsewhere. These aren't warez lists. > -- > Jim Gillogly > 29 Blotmath S.R. 1998, 01:12 > 12.19.5.12.12, 4 Eb 5 Ceh, Ninth Lord of Night > From life229 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 05:17:41 1998 From: life229 at hotmail.com (mschneider) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:17:41 +0800 Subject: Discover your family SECRETS! Message-ID: <419.436117.30631192life229@hotmail.com> Your Parents and Grandparents tell the real story of their lives with the help of MY LIFE & FAMILY MEMORIES WORKBOOK! "A Guide For Writing Your Personal And Family History" Designed with careful thought, this unique Workbook provides 135 pages of step by step instruction. It's Simple! It's Easy! It's Fun! It's only $24.95! Your parents and grandparents will be deeply moved that you think their life story is important enough to be saved for future generations. Can be shipped direct to your loved one in a decorative Christmas Gift Mailer with a gift card enclosed. HURRY! IN TIME FOR CHRISTMAS! ORDER NOW by FAX: Simply print out this order form and fax it to (407) 349-2921 Attach your check and make check payable to: My Life & Family, Inc. for $24.95. FL residents add 6% sales tax for a total of $26.45 or CALL 1-407-349-2921 We can take Checks by Phone. Name: _______________________________________________________________ Street Address: ________________________________________________________ City: ____________________________State: _____________ Zipcode: __________ YOUR Phone Number: _______________________________________ YOUR Email Address:________________________________________ Bank Name:_____________________________Check #________Amount:__________ Address:______________________________________________________________ #'s at bottom of check from left to right:_______________________________________ � YES! Enclose gift card signed as follows:____________________________________ SHIP TO: Name if different from above: _______________________________________ Street Address:_________________________________________________________ City:_____________________________State:_____________ Zip Code:___________ Tape Check Here to Fax to (407) 349-2921 Or mail to: ML&F PO box 1290 Geneva, Fl 32732 From tee2e at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 21:27:44 1998 From: tee2e at hotmail.com (tee2e at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:27:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xtra CASH $ ! Message-ID: <199811190526.FAA31970@out1.ibm.net> X-Info: X-Info:Sent using Zenith Bulk Emailer (FREE) STOP Before you act in haste PRINT this and read it a few times! It makes more sense after you look it over and think about it. Take the chance you never know what will happen!!! You are about to make up to $50.000-In less than 90 days Read the enclosed program Then read it AGAIN! The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable and is a way to get a considerable amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return foe a minimal effort and money required. This is the letter that got my attention, Read on and I'm sure you will agree that this is a great plan! BEGINNING OF THE LETTER.. Dear friend, The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later, I re-read everything and gave some thoughts and study to it. Please do the same. It's so simple to do. And you won't be left out in the cold to figure it all out yourself. Look further down in this letter for information you will receive from Abot Marketing. They give you 10.000 fresh email addresses and give you the locations of the best software " free software" to send large quantities of email. They even give you easy to understand, proven, step by step instructions for success with this program. In fact, they helped me get started and I'm so thankful. It's hard to believe that this is as simple as it is, but it really is SIMPLE. You will even get support from them via email anytime you need it. You won't get this kind of help from any other programs of this nature. It makes all the difference in the world. My name is Anne Bowman, I am 31-years-old graduate student desperately trying to finish my degree and begin working in my chosen field --that is, if I am lucky enough to find a job in the crowded market. Like most people in this day and age, it is hard to make ends meet and being a student does not help the situations at all.( If I ever have to buy one more box of macaroni and cheese I think I would have to scream). I returned to school after having worked for years with little potential for achieving what I had expected out of life. I figured if I returned to school and receive my Ph.D there would be several opportunities for me out there to achieve my goals. After seeing my fellow graduate students receive their degrees and depressingly, not find respectable position in their chosen field I began to think, "Oh no, not again". Four extra in school and an extra $20.000 in students loan on top of the first $18.000, what will I do if the same happens to me? I began to doubt my! ! patience for long term investment in schooling and decided enough was enough, "Why can't I make real money now instead of waiting to graduate with no guarantee of a lucrative return for all my efforts!" I am writing to share my experience with other hopeful students out there, as well as ANYONE looking for an opportunity to take their financial situation into their hands. I hope you will consider this opportunity seriously and that this will change your life FOREVER!!, FINANCIALY!!!!!! And once you get started it takes so little of your time. In mid Octomber97 I received this program. I didn't send or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. I TOOK THIS AS A SIGN!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, it made perfect sense. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMEN. I could invest as much as I wanted to start (about as much as it cost for a pizza!), without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determining that the program is ********LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER**********, I decided " I have NOTHING TO LOOSE" Initially I sent 15,000 emails, (without any costs to me), only a couple of hours of my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the time to fulfill my orders. There is a vast on-line market available to everyone who owns a computer. Following the advice of a person from whom I received this letter, I am telling you like it is and hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. After you receive the reports they should explain you everything to you. You may have some general questions, however, and after I send you report #1, please feel free to contact me and I will give you any advice you need. In one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT#1. By mid November, I had received 40 orders for REPORT#1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making $50.000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By the beginning of December, I had received 174 orders for report#2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE: "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT#2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50.000 GOAL". Well, I had 174 orders for REPORT#2, 74 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By January 20th, of my emailing of 15.000, I received $54,ooo with more coming in everyday. The great thing about this program is you can begin the process over and over again without any limit on potential income. I paid off ALL my student loans and together with everything I have learned in school. I am now saving in order to open up my own business related to my field as soon as I graduate. Please take time to read the attached program. It will CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must fallow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place on the list. It doesn't work, you'll loose out on a lot of money! REPORT#2 explains this. "ALWAYS" follow the GUARANTEE, 15 to 20 orders of REPORT#1 and 100 or more orders of REPORT#2 and you will make $50.000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I am a living proof that IT WORKS. If you chose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you chose to participate, follow the program and you will on your way to financially security. To my fellow graduated students out there, good luck to you and I sympathize. And to all other persons in financially trouble consider this letter as a sign and please take advantage of this opportunity. YOU WON'T BE DISAPPOINTED! Sincerely, Anne Bowman THE END OF THE.LETTER The following testimonial was at the bottom of this letter but it was too good to leave it down there so I moved it up here. It is exactly how I felt and feel now. "The first week after I started this program was torture. I couldn't wait to see if it is was really going to work after I mailed out my first batch of letters. I chuckle every day now when I walk out of the post office with my envelopes. This is so easy, I still can't believe it's happening!" Don Masterson, Troy, NY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ >From here down is the instructions portion of this letter.. This is a legal, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMEN. Print the letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN. You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see. Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash. This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line populations desirous of additional income. This is a legitimate, LEGAL, moneymaking opportunity. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank! This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for! Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter and your financial dreams will come true ! When followed correctly, this electronic, multi-level business marketing program works perfectly..100% EVERY TIME! Thousand of people have used this program to -Raise capital to start their own business -Pay off debts -Buy homes, cars, etc. -Even retire! This is your chance, so don't pass it up! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTILEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Basically, this is what we do: We send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that cost next to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in U.S allows you to recruit new multi-level business on-line (via your computer). The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports costing $5.00 each. Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include: $5.oo cash The name and number of the report they are ordering The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. The $5.oo cash is yours! This is the most EASIEST electronic multi-level business anywhere. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -----INSTRUCTIONS------ THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST DO: 1.ORDER all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't have them). For each report, send $5.00 cash, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, AND YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS(in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to report. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You will need all 4 reports, so you can save them on your computer and resell them. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT- Do not alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in anyway other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "d" or you will loose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will understand. Why it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tasted and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of the available reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address under REPORT#1 with your name and address, moving the one that was there down to REPORT#2. c. Move the name and address that was under REPORT#2 down the REPORT#3. d. Move the name and address that was under REPORT#3 down the REPORT#4. e. The name and address that was under REPORT#4 is removed from the list and HAS NO DOUBT COLLECTED THEIR 50 GRAND. Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address accurately!!!! 3.Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names and save it to your computer. Make no changes to the instructions portion of this letter. 4. Now you are ready to start an advertising campaign on the internet! Advertising on the internet is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of free places to advertise, but email, by far proven itself to be the best medium for this program. And the emailers best friend is email lists. You can buy these lists for under $20/20.000addresses or you can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of the mailing for you. Be sure that you ad campaign IMEDIATELY! Each day that passes while you think about it, is a day without profit. 5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! Always provide same day service on all other orders! This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the reports. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Available reports ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ***Order each report by number and name*** Notes: - Always send $5.00 cash for each report - Always send your order via first class mail - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper!!! - On one of those sheets of paper include : a)the number and name of the report you are ordering, b)your email address, c) your postal address (using the printer is the best way to do this) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ REPORT#1 "HOW TO MAKE 250,000 THROUGH MULTILEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT#1 FROM: T Evans 297 Castro St. #B San Francisco CA,94114 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ REPORT#2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTILEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT#2 FROM: Mateescu F Str.Abatorului bl.1 ap.15 Sibiu-2400 ROMANIA **********IMPORTANT NOTE********** US DOLLARS CURRENCY only and $5 bill must be new, at least made in 1993 and don't fold it. Once again, make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least "two" sheets of paper! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ REPORT#3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" Christian S PO BOX 1092, JKB 11010 INDONESIA ORDER REPORT#3 FROM: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ REPORT#4 "EVALUATING MULTILEVEL SALES PLANS" J.F.J P.O. BOX 342 McCormick, SC 29835-0342 USA ORDER REPORT#4 FROM: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HERE IS HOW THIS AMZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Let's say you decide to start small jut to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the INTERNET will easily get a larger response). Also assume that everyone else in your organization gets only 10 down line members. Folow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 10 members with $5$50 2nd level --10 members from those 10($5x100)..$500 3rd level--10 members from those 100($5x1000)$5.000 4th level--10 members from those 1000($5x10000)$50.000 THIS TOTALS-------------------------------$55,550 Remember friends this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! Think about it!!!!. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20 for a chance to make $55,000). You obviously already have an internet connection and email is free!! REPORT#3 shows you the most productive method for bulk emailing and purchasing e-mail lists. Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even work on trade! About 50,000 new people get on-line every month.!!!!!!! **********TIPS FOR SUCCESS****************** *TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional and follow the directions accurately. *Send foe the four reports immediately so you will have them when the others start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you must send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. postal and lottery Lows. *Always provide some-day service on the orders you receive. *Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly the results will undoubtedly successful! *ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOUSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL HAVE SUCCESS. I CAN' T STRESS ENOUGHHOW IMPORTANT THIS NEXT SECTION IS!!!! If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT#1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT#2, you CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERNT report. You can KEEP TRACK OF YOUR PROGRESS BY watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of emails and start the whole process again! THERE IS NO LIMITS TO THE INCOME YOU WILL GENERATE FROM THIS BUSINESS! NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contract your local office of the SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION(a federal agency) for free help answers to questions. Also, the INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes. *****TESTIMONIALS****** The first week after I started this programwas torture. I couldn't wait to see if it was really going to work, after I emailed out my first batch of letters. I chuckled every day when I walk out of the post office with my envelopes. This is so easy I still can't believe is happening! Don Masterson, Troy , NY This program does work but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it's won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I AM A LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do chose to participate, follow the program exactly and you will on your way to financial security. Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving " junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it won't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. .Well, the laugh was on me!! Within 2 weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5.oo bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I am a believer now. I've joined Doris in her "hobby" . I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race", and it is not for me. We own it all to MLM. Frank T., Bel-Air, MD I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. Any doubts you have, will vanish when you first orders come in. I even checked with U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan is legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!! Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely, profitable and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for a minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq. Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. Marry Rockland, Lansing, MI I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have g *** Get The Zen Bulk Emailer FREE - Where To Get it *** *** FAX/CALL +1 212 2082904 (US) or FAX +44 (01772) 492507 (UK) *** *** Or Download From FireFox Freeware *** From declan at well.com Wed Nov 18 06:14:41 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:14:41 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811181350.FAA27641@smtp.well.com> William -- your speculation may be true, but for now we can settle for fact: they do support export controls. It makes sense, too: export ctrls create an artificial market for key recovery crypto, which TIS will be happy to sell to you. -Declan At 04:26 AM 11-18-98 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: >In , on 11/17/98 > at 07:35 PM, Robert Hettinga said: > >>TIS supports export controls on encryption products. My article: >> http://www.well.com/user/declan/pubs/cwd.shadow.cryptocrats.0298.txt > >I doubt that TIS really cares one way or the other so long as they keep their fat government contracts. Of course those same contracts require keeping the government happy (ie: supporting GAK), TIS and others (being the corporate whores that they are) will sell out their own mothers (and the rest of us along with them) if it looked good on the bottom line. > >A real shame that PGP had to get mixed up with these vipers. > >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------- >William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net >Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 > >Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice >PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. >OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html >--------------------------------------------------------------- > From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 18 07:21:21 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:21:21 +0800 Subject: Nov. 22 bonus column - Year 2000 Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:29:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: vin at dali.lvrj.com Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vinsends at ezlink.com From: Vin_Suprynowicz at lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) Subject: Nov. 22 bonus column - Year 2000 Resent-From: vinsends at ezlink.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/596 X-Loop: vinsends at ezlink.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vinsends-request at ezlink.com FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA DUE TO LENGTH, PLEASE CONSIDER THIS YOUR BONUS ESSAY FOR NOVEMBER FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED NOV. 22, 1998 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz I don't know nothin' 'bout no Y2K OK, I admit it: I've been ducking the "Y2K" question. It's the most frequent inquiry I get, these days. And last weekend, while participating in an electronic chat room organized by the Liberty Roundtable, I had the questions come up several more times: "What do you see happening in the Y2K crisis? To what part of the country should we move to be safest?" For those who have been in a cave, "Y2K" is shorthand for the problem that develops because -- computer memory having been at a premium -- the programmers who set up many of our mainframe computers back in the 1970s and '80s created only a two-digit field for "year." Now -- starting April 1, 1999, if not sooner -- operators are going to try to program the computers that monitor our utility grids and phone systems, the factory machinery that generates "just-on-time delivery" of goods, even our railroad and airport switching equipment, giving those machines their instructions for the first quarter of the year "00." But (pardon my anthropomorphing) many of those computers will "assume" the year 00 happened 99 years ago. Anecdotes are already circulating about mortgage holders being billed for 99 years of delinquent interest, or supermarket debit machines rejecting as "expired" brand new debit cards which carry expiration dates ending in "00" or "01. " So far, opinion among thoughtful people has been split on the likely repercussions. Some perfectly wise folks argue that our economy and technology are the most innovative and resourceful ever devised. Even if your bank's ATMs go on the fritz for a couple of days, even if the railroad switching equipment bogs down and produce deliveries to your supermarket grow spotty for a few weeks, armies of well-paid technicians will hurl themselves into developing "work-arounds." To this way of thinking, survivalists who foresee the collapse of large segments of our urban culture, putting a premium on ownership of a cow and a well and a garden for the first time in 50 years, are merely engaging in wishful thinking. Generally a bunch of Bible-thumpers (as this line of thought goes), they would find it mighty handy for some kind of cosmic rain of brimstone to wipe away the urban Sodom and Gomorrah they view as the cause of all their problems, proliferating as that urban culture does the legions of the socialists, the welfare queens, the abortionists, the enviro bug-worshippers, the gun-grabbers. How fitting and handy to envision them all killing each other off, fighting over the last moldy crust of bread. And, if the Y2K "crisis" were about to occur in perfect isolation, that argument would hold some water (even if this revelation of a nation divided into urban-versus-rural, East-versus-West, gun-lover versus gun-hater, would be worth some further study, all by itself.) But remember, Y2K is "shorthand." And as it turns out, it stands for a lot more than just "Year 2000." The problem is that -- not exactly simultaneously, but all within the next couple of years -- a few other problems are likely to crop up. Without predicting a specific order: # # # 1) The fractional reserve banking system that dates back to the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1912-13 is in deep crisis. Buoyed by the supposed guarantee that the International Monetary Fund (our long-suffering friends, the U.S. taxpayers) would bail out any failures, our "private" bankers (and those of Japan) have been recording trumped-up double-digit returns by loaning billions to such bankrupt chicken farms as Malaysia, Indonesia, Russia, Brazil, and Mexico. These loans are no good. And they are pyramided and leveraged atop one another like something out of Dr. Seuss. In this country, too, the pursuit of ever-higher returns and the presumption that everyone can live the good life on credit have encouraged foolish loans and investments based on the notion that the federal government "insures all deposits," and that we can always pay off our debts with that raise we hope to get next year. Once these assumptions start to unravel, the only debate will be whether to describe the fallout with references to "dominoes," or that old favorite, the "house of cards." Remember, as Jimmy Stewart explains to his depositors every year in "It's a Wonderful Life," the current system is based on the assumption (are you noticing that word crop up a lot?) that only a small percentage of depositors will ever want to take all their money out at the same time. Otherwise, the banks would be, well, bankrupt. This kind of fraud is only legal because the government specifically licenses people to do it, on the theory that it "creates more credit, to promote economic growth." 2) Then comes that old stalwart, the New York Stock Exchange. Prices there have been many times what can be justified by traditional price-to-earning ratios for years. That sounds arcane, but what it means is that few investors are buying stocks these days because they've always wanted to own a piece of Hammermill or Coca-Cola, and look forward to reading the annual reports and living off the dividends in their golden years. Dividends? Mere pennies! Folks buy these stocks today because the guy who's selling them made an 18 to 21 percent return in 1997, and the buyer hopes to realize 18 to 21 percent when he sells them in the year 2000. When the holder of a mutual fund can no longer even tell you what products or services are offered by the underlying firms that issued the stocks in his or her "portfolio," what you have is a "bubble." Think tulip bulbs, Everglades building lots, Cabbage Patch dolls, baseball cards, beanie babies. # # # 3) Today's dollar is intrinsically worthless. First it was made of gold; then it said "pay to the bearer in gold;" then silver, now it's a certificate redeemable for exactly nothing. Dollar-denominated Treasury bonds are also intrinsically worthless. They are merely a promise to tax our children or grandchildren to pay us back in still more paper -- Libertarians call them "extortion futures." Bill Clinton is one of the luckiest men in history ... so far. Most rational (non-Keynesian) economic models would predict that -- at the rate at which the United States has been printing and passing worthless green paper for the past 30 years -- we should be in the midst of a hyperinflation that would make the Weimar Republic look boring. But the funniest thing happened: All over the world, people love and respect America as the font of freedom, and figure the dollar must really be worth something -- certainly more than their worthless domestic ruble or zlotny. So they hide dollars in their mattresses. Those dollars don't come back to these shores to bid up the price of American goods. So we're fine ... so far. But there's a reason why the guys who get arrested by your local bunko squad are called "con artists." Their stock in trade is "confidence." Remember Y2K? Imagine now that the ATM machines stop working. Since the nation's major railroad switching yards are now entirely computerized -- the old manual switches were torn out years ago -- the grocery store runs out of fresh produce. Some computer messes up at the sewage treatment plant, and before they can figure out a manual override some sewage backs up into the reservoir. Suddenly you're warned to boil your cooking water, like some barefoot Third World peasant. Without explanation, the phones go dead. Long lines form as folks start panic-buying remaining supplies of gasoline, kerosene lanterns, and canned goods -- price no object. There are a few fistfights over the last rolls of toilet paper. Pressed by jealous mobs to "do something," blustering politicians declare that anyone who stores too much stuff is a "hoarder." Neighbors are encouraged to turn in neighbors -- offered a reward from the seized goods when they're "redistributed." Every electronic alarm in the city goes off all at once, leaving police and fireman scurrying around, clueless. Some looting starts -- after all, it's the "hoarders" who are the real criminals, right? TV pictures of all this go out overseas, until the broadcasts are limited "to prevent panic." What has just been lost? "Confidence." Now folks want to draw out their bank accounts in cash. They want to sell their stocks ... but how can everyone sell when the prices are falling so quickly that there are no buyers, and the phone lines to your broker are tied up for days on end? 4) There is no "Social Security Trust Fund." The thief you keep sending back to Congress helped them spend it all. Already, the retirement age is being raised, and there's serious talk of "means testing" payments -- only making full payments to the drunks and losers and compulsive gamblers who accrued no other savings or assets. Kind of like taxing all the industrious little ants, but only paying off the lazy grasshoppers. Sound like a "guaranteed annuity" to you? Assurances of ongoing "Trust Fund" solvency are based on the optimistic assumption (there's that word again) that Social Security payments by younger workers will continue at current levels. But what if there's a recession, with big layoffs? What if the computers at the IRS are rumored to be down as of late 1999? What if lots of people decide to just stop filing and paying federal taxes in early Year 2000, on the theory, "They're off line, anyway. If we ALL stop, they can't come find ALL of us"? (This would never have happened in the 1950s, of course, when American taxpayers -- generally paying less than 5 percent of gross income so you could still support a family on one salary -- considered it "our" government and were proud to do their patriotic duty at tax time. But since then the liars have brought us Vietnam, Watergate, Chinagate, Filegate, Ruby Ridge, and Waco ... IRS auditors and drug police routinely referring to average Americans as "scum" and gleefully seizing our homes, businesses and bank accounts, tens of thousands of young people jailed for marijuana despite popular votes to legalize the stuff, defendants railroaded by smug federal politician-judges without even being allowed to read the Bill of Rights to their juries. Still consider it your "patriotic duty" to feed this beast with half of what you earn? Or did you think your pal the congressman was suddenly, desperately searching for "an alternative to the IRS" just out of the goodness of his heart?) And what happens now to the carefully-drawn charts that show Social Security is "sound until the year 2012"? # # # Irresponsible speculation? If so, I'm not alone. Appearing in Las Vegas on Tuesday, Nov. 17, U.S. Sen. Bob Bennett, R-Utah, chairman of a Senate Special Committee on the Year 2000 Technology Problem, said turn-of-the-century computer glitches could cause "an economic downturn" in the United States and abroad. "Potentially, this could tie up huge parts of the economy," Sen. Bennett told John G. Edwards of the Las Vegas Review-Journal, after a private meeting with executives at the Comdex computer trade show. "There will be a problem. There is no question that we can't fix everything that needs to be fixed (over the next 14 months)." Sen. Bennett told the newspaper he believes less developed countries in Asia, Africa and South America will be most affected by Y2K problems, though they're reportedly "working hard" to resolve the computer glitches. "My current assumption is that the United States will overcome this without overwhelming, crippling problems," the senator proclaimed. Then he said he is also concerned about how the millennium bug will affect the health care industry. "I wouldn't want to get sick in some rural hospital," the senator said, cheerily. Meantime, the Sacramento Bee reported (also on Nov. 17) results of an August poll that shows most California cities and counties have a plan to eradicate the year 2000 bug ... "but less than half have set aside the money to pay for it." Feeling reassured? Into this potential maelstrom, toss three wild cards: 1) If Americans, hypothetically told at some future date that stocks and bonds have fallen to one-third of their previous nominal values, could be counted on to behave like sophisticated, diversified investors, saying "Oh well, you win some, you lose some," then the market could indeed fall by two thirds without causing a meltdown. But the behavior of large groups of people, once they start moving, is rarely so rational. Would you want to be the last one on your block to cry "Sell"? When a market crashes, folks lose their jobs. What happens then to folks who have no hard savings or supplies but plenty of debt ... who have barely been keeping their heads above water? What liberties -- yours as well as theirs -- would they then gladly trade for a steady supply of hot porridge? 2) The kind of people who gravitate to government "service" never voluntarily accept blame, but they (start ital)are(end ital) always looking for ways to expand their power. Can you spot any aspects of these "Y2K" scenarios that might give government agencies an excuse to seize more power; to further restrict our freedoms under the guise of "offering relief and restoring order"; and then to blame the whole situation on someone else. "Greedy capitalists," perhaps, who have been operating with "too little regulation"? 3) We will be increasingly reassured that "the best minds" are hard at work re-writing computer code to prevent any of this from happening. But computer nerds and denizens of the Internet are, in my experience, the most free-thinking, libertarian ... even anarchist residents of our little global village. They are immensely confident in their self-sufficiency. And they do not like Big Brother -- especially when he threatens to mess with their privacy and freedom. So ... what if a few of them are only (start ital)pretending(end ital) to fix the problem? It may take a village to raise a socialist, but it wouldn't take many Y2K saboteurs to seize this opportunity to "topple the state." # # # A long way around to a relatively short answer: No, I'm not a professional financial advisor. But yes, I know exactly what is going to happen. Everything listed above is going to happen. I just don't know (start ital)when(end ital) each thing is going to happen, or in what particular order -- which is what you really need to know, if you think about it. But since there's no real penalty for being "too prepared" -- other than perhaps looking a bit foolish -- I will fearlessly give a little (absolutely amateur) advice, which should apply in the face of almost (start ital)any(end ital) unforeseen emergency. (And if you start preparing yourself for the smaller emergencies now, at least you'll be part-way home.) Pay down your debts. Turn a hobby into a second, part-time business ... a small but separate income stream. Diversify. Owning a bunch of "funds" with different names, which are in fact all dollar-denominated electronic blips at some government-regulated bank or brokerage house, is not sufficient. Do you own any bullion-value gold coins (not coins with grossly-inflated "collector value," but coins priced at no more than twice their meltdown worth)? Have you hidden away any bags of "junk silver" (pre-1965 real silver dimes and quarters, now selling at about four times face value)? Do you have a supply of greenbacks somewhere other than "in the ATM?" Enough to live on for a week? A month? Rich folks can look into Swiss annuities. But even those of moderate means can think about a beat-up looking American pickup truck ... with enough dough left over to stockpile an extra water pump, an extra fuel pump, extra tires and wheels, an extra battery ... and some wrenches, you yo-yo. Don't panic. Don't sell everything and move somewhere to become an unemployed stranger ... unless you really have the assets, the manpower, and the handyman skills to set yourself up right. Do consider whether you could dig a well (or drink out of the creek) and plant a vegetable garden where you live, should things get tough for a time. If not, do you have friends or relatives within driving distance, where such things are possible? Would they take you in if you arrived as an unwashed beggar? For how long? But what if you were to contact them now, asking permission to store some supplies there, and even to help finance their plans to fix up a room in the loft, to till and fence a bigger garden, or to share the costs and ownership of a four-wheel-drive vehicle? What then? Do you have water and non-perishable food stored to get you through a week? A month? (Freeze-dried gourmet camper's fare is fine for the well-heeled, as are surplus Army MREs. But bulk rice, oats, and dried peas in plastic tubs are surprisingly cheap, if you shop around.) More than a week's supply of toilet paper, soap, and other hygiene products? Pet food? The doctors and insurance companies don't want you to stockpile the prescription medicines you legitimately need, do they? How hard have you worked at outsmarting them? As a last resort, think "veterinarian." Do you have alternative ways to heat and light your home, if the power were to go down? (Residents of blizzard country will actually have a head start, here.) If not, is that because you look forward to someday living in a "government resettlement camp"? Could you protect your family and belongings from home invaders, if the police could not be reached? Would your neighbors help? Would you help (start ital)them(end ital)? Do you even know their names? Do you own any firearms? Are they listed on government pre-confiscation lists? Why? Do you know why shotguns and handguns are generally better home-defense weapons than rifles? Do you know with what types of bullets or shells it's best to load such weapons for home defense? Got any? Why not? Afraid that once you start to learn new stuff it might become a habit? Dying during a crisis is not the worst thing that can happen to you. I imagine that watching the suffering of those who counted on you to protect them can be much worse. Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin at lvrj.com The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it. -- John Hay, 1872 The most difficult struggle of all is the one within ourselves. Let us not get accustomed and adjusted to these conditions. The one who adjusts ceases to discriminate between good and evil. He becomes a slave in body and soul. Whatever may happen to you, remember always: Don't adjust! Revolt against the reality! -- Mordechai Anielewicz, Warsaw, 1943 * * * --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 18 08:34:19 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:34:19 +0800 Subject: CJ Update Message-ID: <199811181521.KAA16375@smtp2.atl.mindspring.net> Received today by e-mail: November 16, 1998 Springfield, Missouri To: friends of Carl Johnson, The Last Canadian Outlaw (name of his last album) From: Alia Johnson I saw CJ today at the Springfield facility for the criminally disturbing. We spent five hours, a lot of laughing, a little crying, and talking, with lots of cameras and mikes on us. The controllers would not let me take notes! First, CJ's great hope and request to his friends is to hang in there with him. He intends to go all the way with this to trial, being his own defense lawyer, even though he believes that since the Feds know they will lose, they will try to get him to plea bargain down to "walking his dog without a leash" as he puts it. He is definitely on a mission. He received John's package, nothing from Declan. He has received about half the mail I sent him. They are reading his mail to his lawyers, supposedly forbidden. CJ has been without glasses and without his teeth for the whole time since he was arrested. JEFF GORDON STILL HAS CJ'S TEETH. However, his vision has improved! He is also without proper medication for his Tourette's. The shrink told him that the amphetamines he had been prescribed and which were working well would probably be stolen by the staff anyway. CJ is very conscious of managing his neurological condition, with coffee, sugar, fasting, and self-control. He does complain that he was so pleased with himself that he got through his last rage attack without hurting himself or acting it out that he punched a wall in celebration and hurt his hand! Even though he is supposed to be his own lawyer, he has not even been informed about his indictment nor has he been informed about anything else about his case. At Springfield he has been in lockup for things that he purportedly did at the Florence, Arizona prison. The shrink gets a message this past weekend that suddenly I am coming down, and this morning before I get there he rushes in to tell CJ he's finally moving him out of lockup into the open ward! Wolfson later tells me that over two weeks ago he notified the federal marshalls that CJ can be moved back to Arizona, but he had not told CJ that. I don't know whether it's true. He actually took me to task for coming on such short notice. CJ was very happy that the things he has sent out have been posted, and it is clear that the support of the cypherpunks community is important to him. He did not talk to me about particular defense strategies for obvious reasons. He did indicate that the story that I relayed to John about the incident in the federal courthouse in Estevan involving a supposed gasoline "bomb" (a version of which incident was part of a story by Declan) was a surprise to him; he seemed both surprised and amused about what actions had been attributed to him. To say I know and understand nothing about this incident is an understatement. I mention it only because it is part of Jeff Gordon's original complaint, a significant part I assume since CJ has never been known to do physical injury to a human being. CJ has not seen the stories by Declan nor what has been posted; I sent a hundred pages of stuff to Larry Dowling his Austin lawyer, including copies of Declan's articles. I had not sent these things to CJ on the assumption that they would be censored. CJ suggested that I ask Dowling to sent them with the instruction on the envelope "open in the presence of the inmate only". Again, he wants to see these things because his spirit is hanging on the support from John and the rest of the community, although he said very clearly that he is doing this on his own and would do it alone if he had to. Just before I left to come here, having finally been cleared as a visitor, I got a call from Linda Lou Reed, saying that she had not done a couple of things needed to get his music CD together, since she has been out of town. CJ and I talked about how to get this together and I will work on it with other Tucson friends. Someone had the idea of selling the CD's to support a legal defense fund. I will report progress as it occurs. And speaking of legal defense support, thanks to John and others who made suggestions about legal support. After many hours of discussion the family decided that it was not the most intelligent thing to put up the meagre family fortunes against the federal government, and therefore we intend at this point to trust CJ's defense to his stated (and historically effective) plan to be his own defense, or to public defenders. With some trepidation I brought this up to CJ, and he was relieved; he said that he had been worried that we would try to pay for a defense in this case, which again he intends to push all the way through no matter what compromises are offered to him, and that our paying for his defense was not what he wanted. Therefore I would like to put out to those who know the situation to help CJ to obtain relevant legal information and consultation as he goes into this, in whatever form it is available. If there are costs that I personally can afford to support, I am happy to. CJ has made repeated requests for access to legal books at Springfield, and they disappear into nowhere, no yes, no no. An interesting point: CJ related that Dr. Wolfson had asked him about his filing of IRS tax forms! As if they were on a fishing expedition looking for other things to get CJ on, as they did with Jim Bell. I confronted Wolfson about this, asking how it was relevant to the issue Wolfson was supposed to be investigating, which is CJ's competence to understand the charges against him and to stand trial. At that exact moment he jumped up and said that he urgently needed to answer a page which he had received five minutes before. I overheard the conversation which he had suddenly urgently to engage in, and it was a trivial conversation about returning a copy of a document to someone. But when he returned to me he said "Well I have three reasons for having asked that." Already suspicious, to have three reasons. The main reason Wolfson said was that CJ says he has attention deficient disorder (ADD) associated with the Tourette's, and that asking if someone filed taxes was a good indicator of their attention span! (Could I be making this up?) I said, why not pick something like, can you make it through the college registration process? He replied, "I'm not used to working with educated people." Other "reasons" he gave: 1) I want to give a thorough medical, psychological, social and legal picture as part of my judgment whether someone is capable of understanding the charges against him, because if I leave significant things out of my report I am more likely to be receiving a subpoena to wherever CJ is being tried, and that's inconvenient for me; and 2) there are all these wacko people who question the authority of government to levy taxes, put people to trial, etc., and I need to determine whether he's one of those and therefore suffering as part of a mass delusion (his words)... he lost me there a little bit. I didn't know whether that would be evidence of sanity or insanity. Anyway he seems to be sending off CJ into the next stage with a report that CJ might have Tourette's, is not schizophrenic, and in his experience is not dangerous. CJ does have some mighty interesting observations about how things are done in this federal nuthouse situation, which god willing we will all get to hear someday. Meanwhile he has sent out certain information to Declan on specific incidents in the facility which he observed, but is concerned that it was not received. Our expectation is that CJ will be returned to Tucson and then extradited to Washington, but clearly as a form of harrassment the marshalls are taking their own sweet time about everything. CJ's "case manager" at Springfeld is Bob Harris. The phone number there is 417 862 7041, and CJ's prisoner number is 05987-196. Any correspondence to anywhere in the prison system needs to have that number on it. John Bogart in Tucson (520 624 8196) is the public defender in CJ's local case, pending his extradition to Washington state. The family retained Larry Dowling in Austin, a very old friend of CJ's and his lawyer for a long time, for a small amount to look after CJ's rights during incarceration; we have not retained him to go the full way in this defense, for the reasons stated above. Supposedly John Bogart will be informed when the marshalls actually choose to move CJ (after the fact). Therefore I suggest that those who want to write to CJ write him soon and by fast mail at U.S. Medical Center, POB Box 4000, Springfield, Missouri 65801. Larry Dowling's address is 606 West 11th, Austin, 78701. I assume he might be willing to forward it to CJ on the assumption that CJ will in fact be moved. Larry has been a true friend throughout this and past tribulations. CJ has said that since he has been incarcerated for three months now with no indication to him as to formal charges, it is time to act to get him out of Springfield. I concur, and unless I hear within a week that he is being moved, I will take some of the cypherpunk friends up on their offer to begin to address this case through the local ACLU. CJ's greatest fear is that he will do something that will justify involuntary drug administration, and he will be defeated in that way. He is also afraid that he will simply be killed in prison. However, all in all I found CJ in pretty good spirits, and clearly feeling "on purpose" vis a vis his goals with his cypherpunk activities. I related to him during our talk that one of my sons just took some time off from university so that he would have time to actually read, and that he had accurately predicted to his friends exactly how I would respond to the news: "Honey, I'm so proud!" CJ said that's how I seemed to feel now about his arrest. It is, finally. I trust that CJ, in spite of a pattern of sometimes shooting himself in the foot, is brilliantly inspired by important libertarian values and goals. I appreciate the education and inspiration I have gained from getting to know this side of his life and some of the people, technologies, issues and ideas of which previously I had only vague notions. Alia Johnson (lodi at well.com) my phone 510 548 2008; my fax 510 848 7842. From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 18 08:43:12 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:43:12 +0800 Subject: CJ Update Corrected Message-ID: <199811181540.KAA25521@smtp2.atl.mindspring.net> This is attorney protected information. Received today by e-mail: November 16, 1998 Springfield, Missouri To: friends of Carl Johnson, The Last Canadian Outlaw (name of his last album) From: Alia Johnson I saw CJ today at the Springfield facility for the criminally disturbing. We spent five hours, a lot of laughing, a little crying, and talking, with lots of cameras and mikes on us. The controllers would not let me take notes! First, CJ's great hope and request to his friends is to hang in there with him. He intends to go all the way with this to trial, being his own defense lawyer, even though he believes that since the Feds know they will lose, they will try to get him to plea bargain down to "walking his dog without a leash" as he puts it. He is definitely on a mission. He received John's package, nothing from Declan. He has received about half the mail I sent him. They are reading his mail to his lawyers, supposedly forbidden. CJ has been without glasses and without his teeth for the whole time since he was arrested. JEFF GORDON STILL HAS CJ'S TEETH. However, his vision has improved! He is also without proper medication for his Tourette's. The shrink told him that the amphetamines he had been prescribed and which were working well would probably be stolen by the staff anyway. CJ is very conscious of managing his neurological condition, with coffee, sugar, fasting, and self-control. He does complain that he was so pleased with himself that he got through his last rage attack without hurting himself or acting it out that he punched a wall in celebration and hurt his hand! Even though he is supposed to be his own lawyer, he has not even been informed about his indictment nor has he been informed about anything else about his case. At Springfield he has been in lockup for things that he purportedly did at the Florence, Arizona prison. The shrink gets a message this past weekend that suddenly I am coming down, and this morning before I get there he rushes in to tell CJ he's finally moving him out of lockup into the open ward! Wolfson later tells me that over two weeks ago he notified the federal marshalls that CJ can be moved back to Arizona, but he had not told CJ that. I don't know whether it's true. He actually took me to task for coming on such short notice. CJ was very happy that the things he has sent out have been posted, and it is clear that the support of the cypherpunks community is important to him. He did not talk to me about particular defense strategies for obvious reasons. He did indicate that the story that I relayed to John about the incident in the federal courthouse in Estevan involving a supposed gasoline "bomb" (a version of which incident was part of a story by Declan) was a surprise to him; he seemed both surprised and amused about what actions had been attributed to him. To say I know and understand nothing about this incident is an understatement. I mention it only because it is part of Jeff Gordon's original complaint, a significant part I assume since CJ has never been known to do physical injury to a human being. CJ has not seen the stories by Declan nor what has been posted; I sent a hundred pages of stuff to Larry Dowling his Austin lawyer, including copies of Declan's articles. I had not sent these things to CJ on the assumption that they would be censored. CJ suggested that I ask Dowling to sent them with the instruction on the envelope "open in the presence of the inmate only". Again, he wants to see these things because his spirit is hanging on the support from John and the rest of the community, although he said very clearly that he is doing this on his own and would do it alone if he had to. Just before I left to come here, having finally been cleared as a visitor, I got a call from Linda Lou Reed, saying that she had not done a couple of things needed to get his music CD together, since she has been out of town. CJ and I talked about how to get this together and I will work on it with other Tucson friends. Someone had the idea of selling the CD's to support a legal defense fund. I will report progress as it occurs. And speaking of legal defense support, thanks to John and others who made suggestions about legal support. After many hours of discussion the family decided that it was not the most intelligent thing to put up the meagre family fortunes against the federal government, and therefore we intend at this point to trust CJ's defense to his stated (and historically effective) plan to be his own defense, or to public defenders. With some trepidation I brought this up to CJ, and he was relieved; he said that he had been worried that we would try to pay for a defense in this case, which again he intends to push all the way through no matter what compromises are offered to him, and that our paying for his defense was not what he wanted. Therefore I would like to put out to those who know the situation to help CJ to obtain relevant legal information and consultation as he goes into this, in whatever form it is available. If there are costs that I personally can afford to support, I am happy to. CJ has made repeated requests for access to legal books at Springfield, and they disappear into nowhere, no yes, no no. An interesting point: CJ related that Dr. Wolfson had asked him about his filing of IRS tax forms! As if they were on a fishing expedition looking for other things to get CJ on, as they did with Jim Bell. I confronted Wolfson about this, asking how it was relevant to the issue Wolfson was supposed to be investigating, which is CJ's competence to understand the charges against him and to stand trial. At that exact moment he jumped up and said that he urgently needed to answer a page which he had received five minutes before. I overheard the conversation which he had suddenly urgently to engage in, and it was a trivial conversation about returning a copy of a document to someone. But when he returned to me he said "Well I have three reasons for having asked that." Already suspicious, to have three reasons. The main reason Wolfson said was that CJ says he has attention deficient disorder (ADD) associated with the Tourette's, and that asking if someone filed taxes was a good indicator of their attention span! (Could I be making this up?) I said, why not pick something like, can you make it through the college registration process? He replied, "I'm not used to working with educated people." Other "reasons" he gave: 1) I want to give a thorough medical, psychological, social and legal picture as part of my judgment whether someone is capable of understanding the charges against him, because if I leave significant things out of my report I am more likely to be receiving a subpoena to wherever CJ is being tried, and that's inconvenient for me; and 2) there are all these wacko people who question the authority of government to levy taxes, put people to trial, etc., and I need to determine whether he's one of those and therefore suffering as part of a mass delusion (his words)... he lost me there a little bit. I didn't know whether that would be evidence of sanity or insanity. Anyway he seems to be sending off CJ into the next stage with a report that CJ might have Tourette's, is not schizophrenic, and in his experience is not dangerous. CJ does have some mighty interesting observations about how things are done in this federal nuthouse situation, which god willing we will all get to hear someday. Meanwhile he has sent out certain information to Declan on specific incidents in the facility which he observed, but is concerned that it was not received. Our expectation is that CJ will be returned to Tucson and then extradited to Washington, but clearly as a form of harrassment the marshalls are taking their own sweet time about everything. CJ's "case manager" at Springfeld is Bob Harris. The phone number there is 417 862 7041, and CJ's prisoner number is 05987-196. Any correspondence to anywhere in the prison system needs to have that number on it. John Bogart in Tucson (520 624 8196) is the public defender in CJ's local case, pending his extradition to Washington state. The family retained Larry Dowling in Austin, a very old friend of CJ's and his lawyer for a long time, for a small amount to look after CJ's rights during incarceration; we have not retained him to go the full way in this defense, for the reasons stated above. Supposedly John Bogart will be informed when the marshalls actually choose to move CJ (after the fact). Therefore I suggest that those who want to write to CJ write him soon and by fast mail at U.S. Medical Center, POB Box 4000, Springfield, Missouri 65801. Larry Dowling's address is 606 West 11th, Austin, 78701. I assume he might be willing to forward it to CJ on the assumption that CJ will in fact be moved. Larry has been a true friend throughout this and past tribulations. CJ has said that since he has been incarcerated for three months now with no indication to him as to formal charges, it is time to act to get him out of Springfield. I concur, and unless I hear within a week that he is being moved, I will take some of the cypherpunk friends up on their offer to begin to address this case through the local ACLU. CJ's greatest fear is that he will do something that will justify involuntary drug administration, and he will be defeated in that way. He is also afraid that he will simply be killed in prison. However, all in all I found CJ in pretty good spirits, and clearly feeling "on purpose" vis a vis his goals with his cypherpunk activities. I related to him during our talk that one of my sons just took some time off from university so that he would have time to actually read, and that he had accurately predicted to his friends exactly how I would respond to the news: "Honey, I'm so proud!" CJ said that's how I seemed to feel now about his arrest. It is, finally. I trust that CJ, in spite of a pattern of sometimes shooting himself in the foot, is brilliantly inspired by important libertarian values and goals. I appreciate the education and inspiration I have gained from getting to know this side of his life and some of the people, technologies, issues and ideas of which previously I had only vague notions. Alia Johnson (lodi at well.com) my phone 510 548 2008; my fax 510 848 7842. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 18 08:53:48 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:53:48 +0800 Subject: CJ Update Corrected (fwd) Message-ID: <199811181618.KAA19330@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:30:56 -0500 > From: John Young > Subject: CJ Update Corrected > This is attorney protected information. Not now. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From stuffed at stuffed.net Thu Nov 19 01:29:13 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED THU NOV 19) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 01:29:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: STUFFED NOW HAS LINKS TO 100S MORE PHOTOS! Message-ID: <19981119081000.5781.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> CHECK OUT ALL THE NEW STUFF IN STUFFED! + BIG PUSSY HEAVEN + GOOEY GONADS + ORAL XXX + FREE PORN 4 ALL + EABO'S EBONY ECSTACY + XXX SOFTLY + MAD MAX'S ULTIMATE BABES + ASIAN SLUTS + INTO THE NIGHT + NICE BUTTS + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From brownrk1 at texaco.com Wed Nov 18 09:43:32 1998 From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 01:43:32 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F859D@MSX11002> Vin McLellan (or someone using his name), in an otherwise closely argued posting, subtly missed the point with: [...snip...] > I was never impressed by the absolutist argument against > patents on math-based processes. Mr. Cordian summarized > this POV: "The fact that the [RSA] patent couldn't be > successfully challenged even though its mathematical > underpinnings were well known years prior reflects badly only > upon the notion of mathematical patents, and hardly refutes the > facts in evidence." By that logic, it seems to me, a basic > knowledge of physics could invalidate almost all patents > for mechanical inventions.) > [...snip...] > The real point is surely that a patent for a device invented by someone with a basic knowledge of physics is used to protect the *invention* not the *knowledge*. They are not used to prevent anyone else inventing another device using the same basic knowledge of physics. Even if it is perfectly just for the RSA (or any other) patent "taken as a whole" to be used to protect "not merely a disembodied mathematical concept but rather a specific machine"; that *doesn''t* mean it is neccessarily just to use the patent to protect that "disembodied mathematical concept" when it is used in some other "specific machine". But software patents *are* used to try to stop people employing the same algorithms in other inventions. So, despite the ingenuous ruling of the court they *are* being used to try to control "disembodied mathematical concepts" - in other words ideas. I have no idea if Watt had a patent on the steam governor. But I bet he didn't try to take one out on Boyle's Law. Ken Brown From vin at shore.net Wed Nov 18 09:48:05 1998 From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 01:48:05 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vin McLellan wrote: >> Now, it seems to me reasonable, albiet academic, to argue whether or not >>software >> should be patentable. It is also certainly reasonable to argue whether >>or not >> cryptographic algorithms should be patentable. >> >> On the other hand, it seems to me unreasonable, willfully ill-informed, >> and/or malovelent to declare -- in the face of several judicial rulings >> which have firmly ratified the RSA PKC patent -- that "prior art" exists >> which should have invalidated that patent. Eric Michael Cordian -- the "Nym" or pseudonym for someone who says he is a group of people, and who has been collecting $500 donations from folks willing to help the Cordian Group sponsor an algebraic attack on the DES (See the "DES Analytic Crack Project" at http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html) -- spun off an individual voice to respond: >Judicial rulings notwithstanding, a description of that which is now known >as RSA Public Key Cryptography was published in a book of algorithms which >pre-dated by quite a few years its patenting and commercial promotion by >the current patent holders. When I read Cordian's claim, I asked Ron Rivest if he had ever heard of such a thing. Prof. Rivest was curious, but said was all news to him. To the best of his knowledge, he said, there had never been anything like a description of the RSA public key cryptosystem published prior to the paper he, Adi Shamir and Len Adelman, published in April, 1977: "On Digital Signatures and Public Key Cryptosystems." Last year, former Cylink attorney Pat Flinn suggested that one possible challenge to the RSA patent might be to highlight the similarity between the RSA PKC and the Pohlig-Hellman crypto system, invented at Stanford University in 1975. For an invention to be patentable, of course, it must be useful, novel, and non-obvious. Flinn argued that the reformulation of the Pohlig-Hellman algorithm with a modulus that was the product of two prime numbers was a potentially "obvious" enhancement. But not even Pat Flinn claimed to know anything about a "description of that which is now known as RSA Public Key Cryptography" being published somewhere -- anywhere -- years before the RSA cryptosystem was invented and named at MIT. As Matt Blaze pointed out, there have also been recent reports about secret research into public-key cryptosystems by cryptographers within the British cryptographic service, GCHQ, in the early 1970s. According to former NSA Director Bobby Ray Inman, the NSA was working on PKC even earlier. Until last December, when the Brits released a GCHQ historical paper written by John Ellis in 1987, there had been little or no unclassified information available about this pioneering research. See: http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/122497encrypt.html We still don't know what was done at the NSA, by whom, and when. Secret government R&D, however, is not really relevant to intellectual property claims on public key crypto. Full publication of the details of an invention -- in exchange for a limited-duration property right -- is really at the heart of the patent process. Except in extraordinary circumstances, the NSA doesn't play in this league. In the commecial world, on the other hand, it's hard to think of priceless information being kept secret (particularly when it is only worth something if it is on a bargaining table.) In the lawsuits between Stanford/Cylink and RSA Data Security over the scope and validity of the Stanford and RSA patents, "obvious prior art" -- certainly evidence that the RSA cryptosystem had been published by someone other than the MIT inventors before 1977 -- would have been worth tens of millions of dollars. It might have been potentially worth that much to Pat Flinn himself. Since I knew that no mention of such a document or book had ever emerged in Cylink's multi-year campaign to invalidate the RSA patent, it seemed a safe bet to challenge Mr. Cordian directly. "There was no such book. Cordian's statement is just not true," I declared. Mr. Cordian replied with dry scorn: >>> Only a complete moron would place himself in the position of trying to >>> prove such an all-encompassing negative. (Not light of hand, our Mr. Cordian. Yet not all negative propositions are impossible to prove. For the rest, I'll leave it to the List and other readers to decide which of us deserves a Dunce Cap for placing himself in an untenable position.) Mr. Cordian didn't press his initial argument that a cryptographic algorithm, even if embodied in a pseudo-mechanical device or process, doesn't deserve patent protection. Since 1981, the US Courts have allowed a process which includes a mathematical algorithm to be patented -- if the algorithm is merely part of an otherwise patentable process. For the RSA cryptosystem, this seems reasonably straightforward to those without a religious bias. To quote the Federal Court in the Schlafly Case, affirmed by the Circuit Court: "Taken as a whole, the RSA patent is entitled to patent protection. The claims of the patent make use of known structures, a communications channel, an encoding device and a decoding device, to produce a practical invention, i.e. a means for securely transmitting messages across an insecure line. The messages are comprised of word signals that are transformed from one state, plaintext, to another state, ciphertext, by the patented invention. The word signals are then transmitted across an insecure line and transformed by the decoding device from ciphertext into plaintext. As such, the claimed invention is not merely a disembodied mathematical concept but rather a specific machine designed to transform and transmit word signals." (I was never impressed by the absolutist argument against patents on math-based processes. Mr. Cordian summarized this POV: "The fact that the [RSA] patent couldn't be successfully challenged even though its mathematical underpinnings were well known years prior reflects badly only upon the notion of mathematical patents, and hardly refutes the facts in evidence." By that logic, it seems to me, a basic knowledge of physics could invalidate almost all patents for mechanical inventions.) The second traditional attack upon the RSA public key cryptosystem, noted above, is the charge that it was "obvious" or insufficiently novel. Section 103 of the US Patent Act provides that a patent is invalid "if the differences between the subject matter sought to be patented and the prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole would have been obvious at the time the invention was made to a person having ordinary skill in the art...." If, as Mr. Cordian claimed, there was "a description of that which is now known as RSA Public Key Cryptography" published in some book years before the 1976 (re)discovery of the RSA cryptosystem by Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman, it would have -- and clearly should have -- invalidated the RSA patent under that rule. So what do we get when Mr. Cordian finally chooses to reveal to a curious List the source of his amazing report that the RSA public key cryptosystem was actually published in the _19th_ Century? Patrick J. Flinn! Hey, what a surprise! As his hallowed source, Mr. Cordian cites a footnote from Flinn's impassioned 1997 denunciation of the RSA patent in the Cyberlaw journal. Read one-time Cylink attorney Flinn at http://www.cyberlaw.com/rsa.html (and a brisk bare-knuckle retort from Bob Haslam, RSADSI's attorney, at http://www.cyberlaw.com/rthrsa.html.) Flinn led the team of patent and litigation lawyers that represented Cylink Corporation in its suit against RSA Data Security Inc. to determine the validity and scope of the RSA PKC patent after the breakup of an early RSA/Cylink licensing partnership. In a separate case, Flinn's team also represented Cylink and Stanford University against RSADSI in a suit which sought to define the validity and scope of the so-called Stanford patents: the Hellman-Merkle Patent and the Diffie-Hellman Patent. Critics of Flinn's Cyberlaw article characterized him as a one-time Cylink gunslinger who had already failed in several attempts to invalidate the RSA patent -- and who was finally bounced from the case in 1996 when Cylink decided that further litigation was futile and potentially disasterous. Cylink subsequently negotiated the purchase of a license for the RSA public key cryptosystem from RSADSI. RSA's attorneys, as you might expect, rudely dismissed Flinn's list of potential vulnerabilities in the RSA patent in Cyberlaw. They pointed out that Flinn's arguments were being published, rather than heard in a courtroom, because those same arguments had failed to impress several judges and hearing officers. "As a matter of fact," declared RSA attorney Bob Haslam, "none of Mr. Flinn's three arguments about the supposed invalidity of the RSA Patent have ever been remotely successful in actual litigation." To its credit, Flinn's Cyberlaw article doesn't really try to be anything but a determined advocate's last-ditch list of legal attacks that might -- with a good tailwind behind them -- potentially chip, limit, or even invalidate RSA's teflon-coated PKC patent. Flinn's Cyberlaw presentation drew notably unsympathetic responses from the law profs and IP experts on the Cyberia mailing list -- although they seemed to admire his style and gall in publishing a case he wasn't going to be allowed try before a judge or jury. For all that, the pretentions of Flinn's Cyberlaw footnote on 19th Century Mathematics turned out to be _far, far_ less than what Mr. Cordian had claimed. Mr. Cordian must have discovered this when he went back and pulled up his source data. Then -- to put it diplomatically -- Mr. Cordian seems to have decided to flim-flam the List a little. Rather than admit an error, a little over-enthusiasm in his recollection of the facts, Cordian decided bluff it out. He quoted for us only the beginning of Flinn's footnote, and he ignored the rest of the footnoted text -- which, quite inconveniently for him, seemed to directly refute his initial claim. (A nymed net-gent like Mr. Cordian -- who hides his real identity behind the Cordian pseudonym -- can perhaps risk his reputation a little more carelessly than the rest of us. If he soils this one, after all, he can just pony up for a new identity.) Wrote Mr. Cordian: >Quoting "Cyberlaw": > > "There are a number of references in the prior art, moreover, > to using the problem of factoring composite numbers in > cryptography, dating back to the 19th century. > > "In 1870, a book by William S. Jevons described the > relationship of one-way functions to cryptography and went > on to discuss specifically the factorization problem used > to create the "trap-door" in the RSA system." Actually, the first line of Cordian's quote is from the main text of Flinn's article: http://www.cyberlaw.com/rsa.html. The second line is from Flinn's Footnote # 64. The _full_ text of Footnote # 64 reads as follows: [64] In 1870, a book by William S. Jevons described the relationship of one-way functions to cryptography and went on to discuss specifically the factorization problem used to create the "trap-door" in the RSA system. In July, 1996, one observer commented on the Jevons book in this way: In his book The Principles of Science: A Treatise on Logic and Scientific Method, written and published in the 1890's, William S. Jevons observed that there are many situations where the 'direct' operation is relatively easy, but the 'inverse' operation is significantly more difficult, One example mentioned briefly is that enciphering (encryption) is easy while deciphering (decryption) is not. In the same section of Chapter 7: Introduction titled 'Induction an Inverse Operation', much more attention is devoted to the principle that multiplication of integers is easy, but finding the (prime) factors of the product is much harder. Thus, Jevons anticipated a key feature of the RSA Algorithm for public key cryptography, though he certainly did not invent the concept of public key cryptography. Solomon W. Golomb, On Factoring Jevons' Number, CRYPTOLOGIA 243 (July 1996) (emphasis added). (The conflict between the 1870 and 1890 dates cited in different paragraphs for the pub date of Jevon's "The Principles of Science" is as published in the original Cyberlaw article. I have no explanation, but the 1870 date seems most likely. William Stanley Jevons, an astonishingly prolific American economist, philosopher, and logician, was born 1835 and died in 1882. He is probably the W.S. Jevons cited here, but I can't be sure since I can find this title among the list of Jevon books in the Library of Congress.) The Cryptologia journal, unfortunately, is not yet available on-line, and the Golomb article doesn't seems available elsewhere. Might be worth digging that up. I'd love to read more of what Shannon Award winner Sol Golomb had to say about the relationship between Jevon's 19th Century mathematical research and public key cryptography. I think it is appropriate to note, however, that Prof. Golomb did _not_ conclude that the functionality of the RSA public key cryptosystem was "obvious" to anyone familiar with Jevons' work. Suerte, _Vin ----- "Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege." _ A Thinking Man's Creed for Crypto _vbm. * Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + * 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548 From 915604 at candseek.com Wed Nov 18 10:51:17 1998 From: 915604 at candseek.com (915604 at candseek.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:51:17 +0800 Subject: JOBOP Systems Engineer Message-ID: <199811181800.KAA07960@toad.com> Since your email address was listed on a related web site page or database, I thought you might help. I am seeking an individual within the following conditions: I am working for one of the leading technology software companies in the Business software industry. We are seeking people experienced in Unix system and/or Windows NT administration. This person will work in any of three areas (New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Ohio) They will join either of two groups; Systems Engineering or Post Sales Implementation. This position requires; 3-5 years experience with Unix and/or Windows NT administration, prior experience in project management or pre-sales support of software product, excellent communication skills, a solid understanding of network management, GREEN CARD (minimum) and ability to travel within a well-defined territory(and occasionally, outside the territory). We offer an opportunity to become involved with leading edge technology, and excellent compensation package (to $80,000 plus bonus), outstanding benefits (including company paid medical and dental, 401K, tuition reimbursement etc.), outstanding working environment and an opportunity to work for one of the largest, most recognizable companies in the software industry . Geographic Location of Position: New Jersey, Pennsylvania or Ohio If you know anyone that might be interested, please forward this to them or contact: Dave Eide Quest_IT Voice: 609-584-9000 ext. 273 Fax: 609-584-9575 Email: 915604 at candseek.com From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 18 11:19:01 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 03:19:01 +0800 Subject: National Security KRA Framework Message-ID: <199811181839.NAA01188@smtp2.atl.mindspring.net> These are excerpts from US Patent 5835596: "International cryptography framework" issued on November 10, 1998, to inventors Keith S. Klemba, Santa Clara, CA, and Roger Merckling, Gieres, France and assigned to Hewlett Packard. Source: http://www.patents.ibm.com/patlist?icnt=US&patent_number=05835596&x=19&y=4 It's an update of US Patent 5651068 issued for the same methodology in July, 1997. Summaries of the patents are also available at < http://www.uspto.gov >. INTERNATIONAL CRYPTOGRAPHY FRAMEWORK SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION The invention provides a four-part technology framework that supports international cryptography, which includes a national flag card, a cryptographic unit, a host system, and a network security server. Three of the four service elements have a fundamentally hierarchical relationship. The National Flag Card (NFC) is installed in the Cryptographic Unit (CU) which, in turn, is installed into a Host System (HS). Cryptographic instructions on the Host system cannot be executed without a Cryptographic Unit, which itself requires the present of a valid National Flag Card before its services are available. The fourth service element, a Network Security Server (NSS), can provide a range of different security services including verification of the other three service elements. The framework supports the design, implementation, and operational elements of any and all national policies, while unifying the design, development, and operation of independent national security policies. The invention thus gives standard form to the service elements of national security policies, where such service elements include such things as hardware from factors, communication protocols, and on-line and off-line data definitions. [Snip drawing and detailed descriptions.] APPLICATION OF THE FRAMEWORK The invention has various applications. In particular, the framework is ideally suited for various national security schemes and operates consistently across a variety of local laws. For example the framework could be used to support a key escrow policy. Key escrowing is a process where the keys or family keys used for cryptography are kept by a third party, in the national context, typically a government agency. This allows the third party to decrypt information when, for example, a law enforcement agency is required to see the contents of an encrypted message. For example if the policy of nation-X requires key escrow, then when nation-X NFC's are put into circulation they contain a key escrowed by nation-X. Law enforcement would be able to use the electronic stamp on a message to determine that the message was encrypted under the policy of nation-X. It would also be able to determine unique identification information of the specific NFC used to enable the CU. If nation-X agrees to cooperate, the escrowed key for the NFC involved may be obtained to decrypt the suspicious message. The actual encryption algorithm used in nation-X may be the same encryption algorithm that is used in nation-Z, such that when a user from nation-X visits nation-Z it is only necessary to put a NFC from nation-Z into the CU. The encryption algorithm in the CU remains the same, but what is governing the use of cryptography is the policy of nation- Z. For example, the policy of nation-Z may require a trap door, such that the government of nation-Z is able to take a back door into the users system to read the deciphered text. In this case the nation-Z NFC provides a back door rather than an escrowed key to law enforcement. Several such schemes are known in the art and it is a feature of the invention that the framework is readily adapted to accommodate such schemes as may be implemented in a particular national policy without affecting the basic hardware, or data structures of a user system, with the exception of the NFC. Thus, the encryption algorithms in CU may be the same encryption algorithms used everywhere. The NFCs control the use of these encryption algorithms in accordance with the local law. Because the NSS is a trusted third party that validates proper local use of the framework, it is not possible to use cryptography unless a locally accepted NFC is installed in the CU. In the example above, even though the encryption engine operates properly in nation-X, it would not operate in nation-Z unless the NFC was replaced with a nation-Z's NFC. For international communication of encrypted information, (e.g. where an encrypted message is generated in nation-Z and sent to nation-X) the involvement of cryptography for such messages will be independently controlled by two NFCs -- the X flag card in nation-X and the Z-flag card in nation-Z. The invention therefore offers the ability to support government policy, whatever that policy may be, and still provide uniform cryptographic services. In addition to the nationalization issues that are illustrated above, within a certain nation there may be multiple encryption policies (e.g. nation-X might have a policy for banking that is more liberal than its policy for manufacturing). Accordingly, the framework is adapted to operate within each country under several different national policies, or with several different levels of encryption. For example, just as there are different stamps for first class and priority mail, the framework may allow for different levels of encryption based on the type of NFC installed. It is a feature of the framework that CUs may have the major standard encryption algorithms built-in (e.g. DES, RSA, DSS, MD5). However, it is also possible to install custom algorithms into the CU providing that the policy in the governing NFC permits this type of activity. Software algorithms can be transferred completely or partially into the CU from either the NFC or the NSS. Hardware algorithms can be added to the CU via the NFC. The actual encryption of a message may involve the NFC, CU, or NSS, or any combination thereof. As soon as the NFC is removed from the CU these custom algorithms are no longer operative, perhaps not even present, in the CU. [End excerpts] From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 18 11:27:04 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 03:27:04 +0800 Subject: CJ's Teeth/Glasses In-Reply-To: <9F00F15E736BD11196B700A0C98448FE0A97BD@WR-SEA-SERVER-2> Message-ID: <199811181850.NAA03064@smtp2.atl.mindspring.net> Jeff, Alia Johnson reports that CJ has not had his teeth and glasses returned. Can you tell me, or refer me to someone who can, what is needed to get that done. Or if I have no right to get involved who else should make the request. Got a Fedex account ready for use. Thanks much, John From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 18 11:32:15 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 03:32:15 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics Message-ID: <199811181903.UAA22584@replay.com> Declan McCullagh writes: >TIS supports export controls on encryption products. My article: > http://www.well.com/user/declan/pubs/cwd.shadow.cryptocrats.0298.txt Two problems here. First, you are using the present tense in saying that TIS "supports" export controls, but your article is from nine months ago. There have been many changes since then, including loosening of the crypto export rules, the acquisition of TIS by Network Associates, and a recent statement that TIS has backed off from its leadership role in advocating key recovery. What is TIS's current policy? It certainly sounds like it is changing. You should find out before claiming to know what it is. Second, even in the context of last February, what you wrote is: > Some of the firms selected also endorse restrictions. Trusted Information > Systems recently circulated a policy paper calling for "sensible" > legislation to "make the export of 56-bit current interim DES controls > permanent and permit the export of stronger encryption when it is combined > with a key recovery system." (Which, coincidentally, TIS is happy to sell > you...) At the time, this would have represented a LIBERALIZATION of export laws. 56 bit exports were only allowed in the context of a promise to add key recovery even for 56 bit keys. The statement you have quoted calls for allowing 56 bit key export permanently, and only requiring key recovery for stronger encryption. True, it was not a call for full elimination of restrictions, but it was a step in the right direction. You are falling into the tiresome pattern of extremists who claim that moderates are lackeys for the other side. It's like an anti-abortion fanatic who says that those who oppose murdering abortion doctors are baby killers. Try reporting the facts instead of altering them to fit your biased views. From vin at shore.net Wed Nov 18 12:12:07 1998 From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:12:07 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent In-Reply-To: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F859D@MSX11002> Message-ID: I conceed your point. Nicely reasoned. Thank you. _Vin At 12:12 PM -0500 11/18/98, Brown, R Ken wrote: >The real point is surely that a patent for a device invented by someone >with a basic knowledge of physics is used to protect the *invention* >not the *knowledge*. They are not used to prevent anyone else inventing >another device using the same basic knowledge of physics. > >Even if it is perfectly just for the RSA (or any other) patent "taken as >a whole" to be used to protect "not merely a disembodied mathematical >concept but rather a specific machine"; that *doesn''t* mean it is >neccessarily just to use the patent to protect that "disembodied >mathematical concept" when it is used in some other "specific machine". >But software patents *are* used to try to stop people employing the same >algorithms in other inventions. So, despite the ingenuous ruling of >the court they *are* being used to try to control "disembodied >mathematical concepts" - in other words ideas. > >I have no idea if Watt had a patent on the steam governor. But I bet he >didn't try to take one out on Boyle's Law. > > >Ken Brown ----- Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548 -- <@><@> -- From fnorky at chisp.net Wed Nov 18 13:01:57 1998 From: fnorky at chisp.net (Douglas L. Peterson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:01:57 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <36532901.A0A9255B@chisp.net> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > William -- your speculation may be true, but for now we can settle for > fact: they do support export controls. It makes sense, too: export ctrls > create an artificial market for key recovery crypto, which TIS will be > happy to sell to you. Wouldn't this only work if import controls were put in place? Right now there is very little to keep me from buying non-GAK software from someone other than TIS. -Doug www.TheServerFarm.net From fnorky at chisp.net Wed Nov 18 13:02:40 1998 From: fnorky at chisp.net (Douglas L. Peterson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:02:40 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <36532C1C.C79813E3@chisp.net> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > You're not a US corporation that hopes to use the same software > domestically and abroad, for instance. Good point. I was thinking from the point of view of an individual or small business. I'm glad I don't have any government contracts. > At 01:07 PM 11-18-98 -0700, Douglas L. Peterson wrote: > >Declan McCullagh wrote: > >> > >> William -- your speculation may be true, but for now we can settle for > >> fact: they do support export controls. It makes sense, too: export ctrls > >> create an artificial market for key recovery crypto, which TIS will be > >> happy to sell to you. > > > >Wouldn't this only work if import controls were put in place? Right now > >there is very little to keep me from buying non-GAK software from > >someone > >other than TIS. > > > >-Doug > >www.TheServerFarm.net > > -Doug www.TheServerFarm.net From declan at well.com Wed Nov 18 13:07:29 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:07:29 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811182025.MAA21320@smtp.well.com> You're not a US corporation that hopes to use the same software domestically and abroad, for instance. At 01:07 PM 11-18-98 -0700, Douglas L. Peterson wrote: >Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >> William -- your speculation may be true, but for now we can settle for >> fact: they do support export controls. It makes sense, too: export ctrls >> create an artificial market for key recovery crypto, which TIS will be >> happy to sell to you. > >Wouldn't this only work if import controls were put in place? Right now >there is very little to keep me from buying non-GAK software from >someone >other than TIS. > >-Doug >www.TheServerFarm.net > From mail at vipul.net Wed Nov 18 13:45:32 1998 From: mail at vipul.net (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:45:32 +0800 Subject: VSNL Censors Indian Internet Sites. Message-ID: <19981119021626.A682@fountainhead.vipul.net> 17 November, 1998 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Vipul Ved Prakash, 2233328. VSNL Censors Indian Internet Sites NEW DELHI, INDIA - VSNL, the Indian Internet monopoly, has been illegally blocking Internet access to a number of Indian web sites for the last several weeks, a Delhi-based Internet presence provider revealed today. The block affects only Indian citizens in India - users anywhere else in the world are not affected. One of the sites targeted is Sense/NET, (www.sensenet.net). Sense/NET lets users of VSNL's text-based shell account use the graphical Netscape browser over their shell accounts, while using only the normal shell account facilities that VSNL provides. With Sense/NET, the common man can surf the Internet just like with VSNL's premium TCP/IP service, but at a fraction of the cost. General Logic, the startup company behind the Sense/NET service, is not taking the blocking of its server lightly. "We did not so much as receive any communication from VSNL about this step, which has the potential to seriously affect our business," said Dr. Pawan Jaitly, a director of the company. "It seems very strange, too, that a security breach was attempted on our server over the Internet just days before the blockage." The censored server, at the (currently blocked) IP address of 208.222.215.97, hosts a number of other web sites including the largest Yellow Pages of Indian exporters and importers available on the Internet and the corporate web sites of the Apple Publishing Technology Center, NewGen Software, and Educational Consultants India Limited. The award-winning web site of Connect magazine, the first Indian print publication to launch a web edition, is also located on the General Logic server. Sense/NET users and others affected by the block who called up VSNL's help desk to request clarification on this issue and access to the sites were told by VSNL staffers that they did not know what the problem was, and that they themselves could not access the sites in question. No official intimation or even acknowledgement about the block has been forthcoming from VSNL. This is not the first time VSNL has blocked access to selected sites on the Internet. On September 19, 1998, online activist Dr. Arun Mehta's writ petition was admitted for hearing in the court of Justice Anil Dev Singh, Delhi High Court, against VSNL, challenging its blockage of certain Internet sites. The sites listed in the petition provide information and software for voice transmissions over the Internet. The petition argues that this action "is wholly without basis in law and amounts to arbitrary and illegal censorship of the petitioner's Fundamental Right to freedom of speech, expression and information as well as an illegal denial of his right to freedom to practice his chosen profession." The petition seeks affirmation that the constitutional rights to free speech apply equally in cyberspace, and it also opens up the issue of VSNL's ban on Internet telephony to judicial scrutiny. The matter will come up for hearing on December 9, 1998. The case is being argued by Mr. Ashok Aggarwal. The Exporters and Importers Yellow Pages web site hosted on General Logic's recently blocked server is a vital e-commerce resource for over sixty-five thousand traders who earn India valuable foreign exchange. "This ban will hurt Indian exporters as well. By banning access to sites... VSNL is cynically choosing to let the nation suffer severe loss if in the process it can safeguard its own monopolistic profits," said Dr. Mehta. "Ironically, VSNL also blocked Educational Consultants, a public sector government organization, with its action." General Logic was able to move all the web sites that were the victims of VSNL's action to a non-blocked area within hours. "Most of our clients didn't even notice their sites and email messages were being blocked by VSNL," said Dr. Jaitly. The Sense/NET site remains blocked, however. "What VSNL is doing is completely illegal. A website is a means of expression and is covered by the right to expression of all indian citizens under article 19(1)a of the Indian Constitution. This can only be restricted under article 19(2) on 'reasonable grounds' which include obscenity, but certainly not the provision of competitive services at reasonable cost," commented Rishab Aiyer Ghosh, managing editor of First Monday, a European journal on Internet law. Last year a duo of computer whiz-kids in Cochin released Shellsock, a software package that made it possible for users of VSNL shell accounts to browse the 'Net graphically. VSNL quickly set about working on ways to break Shellsock, and eventually succeeded in restricting the environment on its shell accounts to the extent that Shellsock was unable to function. General Logic launched its Sense/NET service soon after, with the goal of providing TCP/IP Internet 'tunneling' service to users worldwide, not just in India. "There are other countries suffering under the yoke of state censorship of the Internet, like China, whose authoritatian government, without warning, blocked access to the BBC web site for its citizens," said Dr. Mehta. "VSNL is a monopoly that is crippling India's progress on the Internet front." Even Microsoft, he observed, which holds an effective monopoly in the operating system market worldwide, has no mandate by any government in the market - it has to keep forging ahead or lose to its competitors. "VSNL does not have that motivation, and so it is that the Indian consumer and India suffer." Besides the threat of censorship and poor service, another risk with state monopoly Internet access providers is that they can read your mail, and monitor your communications, as the data flows through their systems. Jaitly disclosed that his company is working on providing strong military grade encryption as part of its Internet tunneling services, to provide secure private networks across untrusted links for business and personal use. "We envision Sense/NET as a sort of 'Meta ISP' providing secure, uncensorable Internet tunneling service to people in places where local access providers are unable or unwilling to deliver full access," said Vipul Ved Prakash, Director of research at General Logic. "We believe in every individual's fundamental right to access human knowledge without restriction. Our message to these people is: 'There's light at the end of the tunnel.'" It's not all crypto-anarchy and dreams of digital revolution, however. Sense/NET is a valuable service for ordinary users who are attempting to make the most effective use of their VSNL shell accounts with the limited services provided. Many of the subscribers to the service are students and other low income groups, who simply cannot afford VSNL's higher priced services. A case in point is that of Pranav Lal, a New Delhi student. Pranav is blind, and VSNL's shell account is next to useless for him. Sense/NET on the other hand allows him to use voice-enabled software to surf the 'net. "I can't afford the VSNL TCP/IP account, but for me it is vital that I am in touch with my peers over the world over the Internet," says Pranav. "Sense/NET is great because it lets me handle my email and navigate the web really simply." "We see the global free flow of ideas across national borders, enabled by digital data communications and encryption technology, as the most liberating development of the 20th century," said Ashish Gulhati head of development at General Logic. "Regulation is futile," he added. The company expects its services will be most in demand in countries where authoritarian regimes are in power. "It's shocking that this kind of thing continues to go on in India," observed Dr. Mehta. "We're the world's largest democracy, on the brink of entering the 21st century as a major player in the global software industry. But we're still enslaved by laws created during the British Raj, even in high priority areas like telecom." [1324 Words] _________________________________________________________________ Notes: 1. Dr. Arun Mehta's petition is at . 2. The Forum for Rights to Electronic Expression articles are at 3. Censored sites: + http://www.sensenet.net/ (Currently blocked) + http://www.trade-india.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.aptc-india.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.edcil.org/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.newgensoft.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.newgen.net/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.connectmagazine.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.net2phone.com/ (Currently blocked) + http://www.vocaltec.com/ (Currently blocked) + http://www.netspeak.com/ (Currently blocked) 4. Email addresses: + Dr. Arun Mehta - amehta at cerf.net + Ashish Gulhati - ashish at generalogic.com + Ashok Agarwal - ashokagr at del2.vsnl.net.in + Dr. Pawan Jaitly - pawan at generalogic.com + Rishab Aiyer Ghosh - ghosh at firstmonday.dk + Vipul Ved Prakash - vipul at generalogic.com _________________________________________________________________ Rev: SNPR v0.06 1998/11/17 15:58:14 webmaster at generalogic.com -- VIPUL VED PRAKASH Cryptography. "Everything is what mail at vipul.net | Distributed Systems. | it is because it got http://vipul.net/ | Network Agents. | that way." 91 11 2233328 | Perl Hacking. | 198 Madhuban IP Extension | Linux. | d'arcy thompson. Delhi, INDIA 110 092 / Networked Media. / From declan at well.com Wed Nov 18 13:57:57 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:57:57 +0800 Subject: FC: More on Network Associates and its crypto-politics In-Reply-To: <199811181903.UAA22584@replay.com> Message-ID: <199811182114.NAA06149@smtp.well.com> If anonymous has any evidence that TIS' policy has changed from earlier this year, I'd like to hear it. I guess if anonymous wants to call me an "extremist," I'll take it as a compliment. Personally I think of myself as pragmatic. -Declan At 08:03 PM 11-18-98 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >Declan McCullagh writes: > >>TIS supports export controls on encryption products. My article: >> http://www.well.com/user/declan/pubs/cwd.shadow.cryptocrats.0298.txt > >Two problems here. First, you are using the present tense in saying that >TIS "supports" export controls, but your article is from nine months ago. >There have been many changes since then, including loosening of the crypto >export rules, the acquisition of TIS by Network Associates, and a recent >statement that TIS has backed off from its leadership role in advocating >key recovery. What is TIS's current policy? It certainly sounds like >it is changing. You should find out before claiming to know what it is. > >Second, even in the context of last February, what you wrote is: > >> Some of the firms selected also endorse restrictions. Trusted Information >> Systems recently circulated a policy paper calling for "sensible" >> legislation to "make the export of 56-bit current interim DES controls >> permanent and permit the export of stronger encryption when it is combined >> with a key recovery system." (Which, coincidentally, TIS is happy to sell >> you...) > >At the time, this would have represented a LIBERALIZATION of export laws. >56 bit exports were only allowed in the context of a promise to add key >recovery even for 56 bit keys. The statement you have quoted calls for >allowing 56 bit key export permanently, and only requiring key recovery >for stronger encryption. True, it was not a call for full elimination >of restrictions, but it was a step in the right direction. > >You are falling into the tiresome pattern of extremists who claim that >moderates are lackeys for the other side. It's like an anti-abortion >fanatic who says that those who oppose murdering abortion doctors are >baby killers. Try reporting the facts instead of altering them to fit >your biased views. > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 18 20:58:08 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:58:08 +0800 Subject: What's up with algebra.com? Message-ID: <199811190440.WAA00215@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, Anyone heard what the status of algebra.com is? I've removed them from the SSZ distribution list temporarily, when they come back I'll re-add the site. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Wed Nov 18 21:16:40 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:16:40 +0800 Subject: What's up with algebra.com? In-Reply-To: <199811190440.WAA00215@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811190500.XAA00326@manifold.algebra.com> Its back on. I am REALLY tired of antispammers. They are responsible for a lot more problems than spammers themselves. It is all the fault of the bullshit antispam software running on sites that feed me mail. igor Jim Choate wrote: > > > Hi, > > Anyone heard what the status of algebra.com is? > > I've removed them from the SSZ distribution list temporarily, when they come > back I'll re-add the site. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want > the right answers. > > Scully (X-Files) > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > - Igor. From bab282 at psu.edu Wed Nov 18 21:29:33 1998 From: bab282 at psu.edu (Blake Buzzini) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:29:33 +0800 Subject: Crypto Coops/Internships (Other Than NSA)?? Message-ID: <001001be137a$32401170$88e3ba92@ruby-river> Does anyone know of any cryptology-related coop/internship programs other than the one offered by the NSA? Blake Buzzini, PSU From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 18 21:30:17 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:30:17 +0800 Subject: Test (algebra.com is back) Message-ID: <199811190514.XAA00928@einstein.ssz.com> Test (algebra.com) is back... From bab282 at psu.edu Wed Nov 18 21:33:07 1998 From: bab282 at psu.edu (Blake Buzzini) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:33:07 +0800 Subject: Crypto Coops/Internships (Other Than NSA)?? Message-ID: <001101be137c$48e4f6f0$88e3ba92@ruby-river> Does anyone know of any cryptology-related coop/internship programs other than the one offered by the NSA? Blake Buzzini, PSU From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 18 21:35:30 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:35:30 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers... Message-ID: <199811190522.XAA01164@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, I have a question related to Goldbach's Conjecture: All even numbers greater than two can be represented as the sum of primes. Is there any work on whether odd numbers can always be represented as the sum of primes? This of course implies that the number of prime members must be odd and must exclude 1 (unless you can have more than a single instance of a given prime). Has this been examined? I'm assuming, since I can't find it explicitly stated anywhere, that Goldbachs Conjecture allows those prime factors to occur in multiple instances. I've pawed through my number theory books and can't find anything relating to this as regards odd numbers. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 18 21:53:37 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:53:37 +0800 Subject: A tad more on Goldbach's Conjecture.... Message-ID: <199811190543.XAA01436@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, I figure I'll share the thought I'm trailing.... Given Goldbach's Conjecture as true then it has a geometric interpretation. Given a triangle of even area greater than two it can be tiled with a set of triangles, with areas given by primes, exactly. I'm using equilaterals as a test case since they're easy to deal with geometricaly. So, if one can show that this is true then Goldbach's follows. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From listmaster at extensis.com Thu Nov 19 14:05:18 1998 From: listmaster at extensis.com (listmaster at extensis.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: *QX-Tools. What Are you waiting for? 6 Stars? Message-ID: Extensis QX-Tools 4.0 Takes the Prize-again, and again, and again. http://www.extensis.com/qxtools * 5 STARS! -Publish Magazine, December 1998 * 5 STARS! -Computer Arts UK, November 1998 * 4 1/2 MICE! -MacWorld, December 1998 * 4 MICE! -MacUser UK, October 1998 * 4 DIAMONDS!-Emediaweekly, September 1998 We have received such enthusiasm from customers and reviewers, alike-we just had to share! At Extensis, we never get tired of having multiple wingdings attached to our reviews, and the quotes are even better! Judge for yourself. "QX-Tools 4.0 belongs among your most valuable XTensions. QX-VectorEdit's ability to import PostScript and PDF alone is worth the price." - Publish, 12/98 "Some inventions are so obvious, you wonder why no one thought of them before-enter Extensis QX-Tools 4.0. QX-Tools is an excellent collection of XTensions and it's a good value too-even if you only use half of them"-Computer Arts, 11/98 "QX-Tools 4.0 enables designers to transcend XPress' limitations and work more efficiently and intuitively."-eMediaweekly, 9/98 So, what are YOU waiting for? Six Stars? Check out Extensis QX-Tools, and get the Quark you REALLY want! To download a demo, get information, or to buy on-line, visit http://www.extensis.com/qxtools Or call Extensis at 1(800) 796-9798 or (503) 274-2020. Extensis QX-Tools is fully compatible with QuarkXPress 4.0.3 or later, and is available for both Mac and Windows. PS. We have made every effort to ensure this message is being sent only to people who have expressed interest in Extensis products. If we have sent this to you in error, please accept our apologies and reply with "REMOVE" in the subject line for automatic exclusion from future communications. If you know someone who would like to be on our mailing list have them send an email to listmaster at extensis.com with "ADD" in the subject line and their email address in the body. P.P.S. This message is intended for North American customers. If you are located outside of North America and have received this message, please visit http://www.extensis.com/wheretobuy/ to find the nearest local distributor in your country. From emc at wire.insync.net Wed Nov 18 22:35:46 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:35:46 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers... In-Reply-To: <199811190522.XAA01164@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811190620.AAA02077@wire.insync.net> Jim Choate writes: > Hi, > I have a question related to Goldbach's Conjecture: > All even numbers greater than two can be represented as the sum of primes. All even numbers greater than two can be represented as the sum of TWO primes. > Is there any work on whether odd numbers can always be represented as the > sum of primes? Goldbach originally suggested that all numbers greater than two could be expressed as the sum of three primes, if one tossed in 1 as a prime number. Euler pointed out that this was equivalent to even numbers greater than two being expressed as the sum of two primes. This seemed a somewhat cleaner formulation, and it was adopted. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From fnorky at chisp.net Wed Nov 18 22:57:02 1998 From: fnorky at chisp.net (Douglas L. Peterson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:57:02 +0800 Subject: CJ Update Corrected Message-ID: <3653B9AF.59B78D59@chisp.net> John Young wrote: > > This is attorney protected information. > > Received today by e-mail: > > November 16, 1998 > Springfield, Missouri > > To: friends of Carl Johnson, The Last Canadian > Outlaw (name of his last album) > > From: Alia Johnson > > I saw CJ today at the Springfield facility for the > criminally disturbing. We spent five hours, a lot of > laughing, a little crying, and talking, with lots of > cameras and mikes on us. The controllers would not > let me take notes! [large snip] > CJ has been without glasses and without his teeth for > the whole time since he was arrested. JEFF GORDON > STILL HAS CJ'S TEETH. However, his vision has > improved! He is also without proper medication for > his Tourette's. The shrink told him that the > amphetamines he had been prescribed and which were > working well would probably be stolen by the staff > anyway. CJ is very conscious of managing his > neurological condition, with coffee, sugar, fasting, > and self-control. He does complain that he was so > pleased with himself that he got through his last > rage attack without hurting himself or acting it out > that he punched a wall in celebration and hurt his > hand! Someone should talk to Larry Dowling (the lawyer looking out for CJ's rights) about this. This seems to be a violation of the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). -Doug www.TheServerFarm.net From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 19 00:35:15 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:35:15 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811190754.IAA15057@replay.com> ##### # ###### # # # # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # ##### # ###### ##### # # # #### ##### #### # # # #### ###### ##### ## ## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ## # # # # # # # ##### # # ##### # # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #### # # #### ##### #### # # ##### # ###### # # # # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # ##### # ###### FUCK micro$oft. Kill them all. Nuke Redmond. Sodomize bILL gATES. Cut his micro$oft prick and shove it up his own ass. Rabid motherfucking whoremongerz at redmond. From holist at mail.matav.hu Thu Nov 19 03:57:20 1998 From: holist at mail.matav.hu (holist) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:57:20 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811191115.DAA14438@toad.com> I only subscribed to this list a few weeks ago. I break my silence in defense of Bernardo B. Terrado, who was viciously attacked by Adam Hupp and then rather more graciously advised by Jim Gillogly. Having read a significant amount of material on the ideological (rather than the technical) background of cypherpunks (Tim May's writings, mainly) it seems to me rather obvious that a relative newcomer to these circles would come to expect to find people who may not be "mannered intellectuals", but who are certainly not erstwhile defenders of intellectual property, particularly asthe concept is applied to software today. I understand that there may be other reasons why it is unwise to post requests for warez on these lists, but moral outrage at the thought of software piracy was not one I expected to read here. Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for pornography that I receive every two days, regular as clockwork, from the cypherpunks list, not to mention the great deal of other entirely useless, automatically generated advertising. Unlike most of you lucky people in the States, I pay through the nose for on-line time. Perhaps priorities could do with rethinking. holist From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 05:29:32 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:29:32 +0800 Subject: Forwarded mail... Message-ID: <199811191312.HAA02344@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 03:15:07 -0800 (PST) > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: holist You should consider subscribing through one of the normal CDR nodes, the toad.com site is unreliable. > come to expect to find people who may not be "mannered intellectuals", but > who are certainly not erstwhile defenders of intellectual property, > particularly asthe concept is applied to software today. Now just exactly what makes you believe that I want other people deciding what happens to the results of my labor? I support Open Source software, however not to the extent I want somebody else to decide without my input whether any given piece happens to Open Source. > requests for warez on these lists, but moral outrage at the thought of > software piracy was not one I expected to read here. Then perhaps you need to work on your morality. > Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for > pornography So what? How exactly does pornography map to stolen software? > Unlike most of you lucky people in the States, I pay through the nose for > on-line time. Sounds like a personal problem to me. > Perhaps priorities could do with rethinking. I agree, you need to do some rethinking. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Thu Nov 19 06:02:47 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:02:47 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199811191115.DAA14438@toad.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, holist wrote: >> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 03:15:07 -0800 (PST) >> From: holist >> To: cypherpunks at toad.com >> >> I only subscribed to this list a few weeks ago. I break my silence in >> defense of Bernardo B. Terrado, who was viciously attacked by Adam Hupp and >> then rather more graciously advised by Jim Gillogly. "viciously attacked" ??? He was begging for warez! Any self-respecting, patriotic Amercian citizen would have reporting him to the IRS for not paying his "Warez Tax". He should be glad that i'm not that person. >> Having read a significant amount of material on the ideological (rather than >> the technical) background of cypherpunks (Tim May's writings, mainly) it >> seems to me rather obvious that a relative newcomer to these circles would >> come to expect to find people who may not be "mannered intellectuals", but >> who are certainly not erstwhile defenders of intellectual property, >> particularly asthe concept is applied to software today. You calling me a "warez pup"? >> I understand that there may be other reasons why it is unwise to post >> requests for warez on these lists, but moral outrage at the thought of >> software piracy was not one I expected to read here. A "pat on the back" and $500 in e-cash instead? >> Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for >> pornography that I receive every two days, regular as clockwork, from the >> cypherpunks list, not to mention the great deal of other entirely useless, >> automatically generated advertising. Are you now complaining about quality free pr0n links??? Where is your gratitude? >> Unlike most of you lucky people in the States, I pay through the nose for >> on-line time. Yes, CJ is lucky to have the IRS alright. >> Perhaps priorities could do with rethinking. Tell me about it! You need some help with yours? >> holist >> >> Regards, Ken Williams Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/ E.H.A.P. Head of Operations http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org NC State CS Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ _____________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 07:26:45 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:26:45 +0800 Subject: Goldbach & two or more primes... Message-ID: <199811191437.IAA02597@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, I'm aware of the Goldbach Reduction by Fermat. The problem is once this theorem is placed in the geometric domain the fact that n-prime factors can be reduced to 2 prime factors is critical and a hinderance. It simply isn't possible to tile a even aread triangle with two smaller congruent triangles whose area is prime. As a result Goldbach's older form is more applicable. If it can be shown that such a tiling is always possible then by extension of Fermat's conjecture the two prime supposition is proved. Reductionism can be a friend or an enemy, swords cut both ways. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 08:01:10 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:01:10 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers... In-Reply-To: <199811190522.XAA01164@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811191526.JAA05438@manifold.algebra.com> Jim Choate wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a question related to Goldbach's Conjecture: > > All even numbers greater than two can be represented as the sum of primes. Hold on right here, Jim. Do you mean a sum of DIFFERENT primes? Because any number greater than 1 can be represented as a sum of some 2s and some 3s. E.g. 8 = 3+3+2, 9 = 3+3+3, 10 = 3+3+2+2, etc. Since this is so boring, I assume that the primes must be different. > Is there any work on whether odd numbers can always be represented as the > sum of primes? Well, take 11, for example, it cannot be repsesented as a sum of different primes. It cannot, pure and simple. So, the above hypothesis is incorrect. No need for high powered math here. > This of course implies that the number of prime members > must be odd and must exclude 1 (unless you can have more than a single > instance of a given prime). Has this been examined? Why, let's say 5 = 3+2, it is a sum of an even number of primes. I suggest that first "examination" should always include playing with trivial examples. > I'm assuming, since I can't find it explicitly stated anywhere, that > Goldbachs Conjecture allows those prime factors to occur in multiple > instances. If multiple instances are allowed, it is an enormously boring conjecture for 5 grade school students. any number above 1 may be represented as a sum of some 3s and some 2s. Big deal. > I've pawed through my number theory books and can't find anything relating > to this as regards odd numbers. - Igor. From Richard.Bragg at ssa.co.uk Thu Nov 19 08:03:12 1998 From: Richard.Bragg at ssa.co.uk (Richard.Bragg at ssa.co.uk) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:03:12 +0800 Subject: manners Message-ID: <802566C1.00536A3E.00@seunt002e.ssa.co.uk> There are ways and means. If someone requests software that is NOT free then a simple NO will surfice. A list of contacts to purchase would aid income for the producer. An additional approach would be to suggest alternatives that are free. There is never any call to be rude. From jim at acm.org Thu Nov 19 08:05:14 1998 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:05:14 +0800 Subject: Piracy and cypherpunks Message-ID: <36543A3F.37AC99B@acm.org> holist writes: > Having read a significant amount of material on the ideological (rather than > the technical) background of cypherpunks (Tim May's writings, mainly) it > seems to me rather obvious that a relative newcomer to these circles would > come to expect to find people who may not be "mannered intellectuals", but > who are certainly not erstwhile defenders of intellectual property, > particularly asthe concept is applied to software today. Hurm. Does Tim May advocate passing around unlicensed copies of an $895 Statgraphics program? I think I must have missed that post. In any case, cypherpunks are not a monolithic bunch. While many (like me) are wild-eyed libertarians of one flavor or another, others are feds, corporate shills, government apologists, prepubescent hackers, and (d'oh) working professionals in the computing industry. I, for example, do believe that the concept of intellectual property makes sense in some cases -- e.g. the inventions of public-key encryption and the RSA algorithm, which were important breakthroughs that merit substantial rewards, and I recognize that this is probably not a majority cypherpunk opinion. I do appreciate patents on all the ticky-tack trivial modifications of every silly algorithm that nobody else thought was worth patenting. However, pirating commercial software is not a good way to make your protest. If you don't want to pay for it, write your own version and make it freely available. > Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for > pornography that I receive every two days, regular as clockwork, from the > cypherpunks list, not to mention the great deal of other entirely useless, > automatically generated advertising. The difference is that the porn spammers don't read the lists they spam, so complaining on the list does no good. The piracy request came from a fairly regular poster to this list. Big difference. One kind of complaint might lead to a behavioral change, and the other leads only to more noise. If I be mannered and intellectual when addressing wannabe software pirates, I'll quote Catullus: Pedicabo et irrumabo, Mentula! -- Jim Gillogly 29 Blotmath S.R. 1998, 15:12 12.19.5.12.12, 4 Eb 5 Ceh, Ninth Lord of Night From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 08:35:20 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:35:20 +0800 Subject: manners (fwd) Message-ID: <199811191606.KAA03196@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Richard.Bragg at ssa.co.uk > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:14:44 +0000 > Subject: manners > There are ways and means. If someone requests software that is NOT free > then a simple NO will surfice. A list of contacts to purchase would aid > income for the producer. > An additional approach would be to suggest alternatives that are free. > > There is never any call to be rude. Agreed, just be sure you can recognize the difference between rude and simply uncomfortable directness. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 08:38:05 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:38:05 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd (fwd) Message-ID: <199811191607.KAA03257@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:01:31 -0500 > From: Ray Arachelian > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd > numbers... > Bullshit: 7+5+(-1)=11. Last I heard, negative numbers weren't excluded from > being primes. 7 is different from 5, -1 is different from 7 and from 5. Shit! I wasn't even thinking of negatives.... Thanks. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 08:40:05 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:40:05 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811191556.JAA03049@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers... > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:26:56 -0600 (CST) > From: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov @ home) > > All even numbers greater than two can be represented as the sum of primes. > > Do you mean a sum of DIFFERENT primes? None of the references that I've looked at state it clearly but I assume that it must be or else we could just use 1 for everything. > > Is there any work on whether odd numbers can always be represented as the > > sum of primes? > > Well, take 11, for example, it cannot be repsesented as a sum of different > primes. It cannot, pure and simple. Sure it can, 1 + 3 + 7. It can't be the PRODUCT of two lower primes since it wouldn't be prime then. This sum by the way CAN'T be reduced to two primes so Fermat's Conjecture applied to odds is clearly false. The only proviso is the number we want to sum TO must be greater than 2. ALL numbers can be represented as sums of primes, the question is whether you allow repeats or not. > > This of course implies that the number of prime members > > must be odd and must exclude 1 (unless you can have more than a single > > instance of a given prime). Has this been examined? > > Why, let's say 5 = 3+2, it is a sum of an even number of primes. In the number theory realm, I agree. In the geometric real (in particular using equilateral triangles) those constraints hold. Note that the smallest number of sums for your example above is odd. The reason that you must exclude the problem becomes trivial if you aren't required to sum the 1's. > I suggest that first "examination" should always include playing > with trivial examples. No kidding? > If multiple instances are allowed, it is an enormously boring conjecture > for 5 grade school students. > > any number above 1 may be represented as a sum of some 3s and some > 2s. Big deal. Actualy they are simply sums of 1's, its actualy first grade math. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sunder at brainlink.com Thu Nov 19 08:45:35 1998 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:45:35 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers... In-Reply-To: <199811191526.JAA05438@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <365440DB.A689C02@brainlink.com> "Igor Chudov @ home" wrote: > Well, take 11, for example, it cannot be repsesented as a sum of different > primes. It cannot, pure and simple. Bullshit: 7+5+(-1)=11. Last I heard, negative numbers weren't excluded from being primes. 7 is different from 5, -1 is different from 7 and from 5. -- =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Sunder |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 19 08:53:39 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:53:39 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of oddnumbers... In-Reply-To: <199811190522.XAA01164@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 12:22 AM -0500 11/19/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Hi, > >I have a question related to Goldbach's Conjecture: > >All even numbers greater than two can be represented as the sum of primes. > >Is there any work on whether odd numbers can always be represented as the >sum of primes? This of course implies that the number of prime members >must be odd and must exclude 1 (unless you can have more than a single >instance of a given prime). Has this been examined? > >I'm assuming, since I can't find it explicitly stated anywhere, that >Goldbachs Conjecture allows those prime factors to occur in multiple >instances. > >I've pawed through my number theory books and can't find anything relating >to this as regards odd numbers. Whoops, jumped the gun on that last one, didn't read thru a second time. Sorry. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From jim at acm.org Thu Nov 19 09:04:52 1998 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:04:52 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers Message-ID: <365448AE.D504F2D6@acm.org> Ray Arachelian wrote: > "Igor Chudov @ home" wrote: > > Well, take 11, for example, it cannot be repsesented as a sum of different > > primes. It cannot, pure and simple. > Bullshit: 7+5+(-1)=11. Last I heard, negative numbers weren't excluded from > being primes. 7 is different from 5, -1 is different from 7 and from 5. If this is boiling down to a definition of primes, I'll haul out my Hardy & Wright, page 2: A number p is said to be prime if (i) p > 1, (ii) p has no positive divisors except 1 and p. ... It is important to observe that 1 is not reckoned as a prime. My number theory class at college (admittedly that was three decades ago) also started the prime series at 2 and went up from there. The term "odd primes" always meant 3 and above, not 1 and above. YMMV. -- Jim Gillogly 29 Blotmath S.R. 1998, 16:29 12.19.5.12.12, 4 Eb 5 Ceh, Ninth Lord of Night From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 19 09:06:55 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:06:55 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of oddnumbers... In-Reply-To: <199811190522.XAA01164@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 12:22 AM -0500 11/19/98, Jim Choate wrote: >Hi, > >I have a question related to Goldbach's Conjecture: > >All even numbers greater than two can be represented as the sum of primes. > >Is there any work on whether odd numbers can always be represented as the >sum of primes? This of course implies that the number of prime members >must be odd and must exclude 1 (unless you can have more than a single >instance of a given prime). Has this been examined? > >I'm assuming, since I can't find it explicitly stated anywhere, that >Goldbachs Conjecture allows those prime factors to occur in multiple >instances. > >I've pawed through my number theory books and can't find anything relating >to this as regards odd numbers. Well, since all primes over 2 are odd, and the sum of two odd numbers is always even, there goes that theory. Unless they changed the rules on primes since I last checked. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From icollins at scotland.net Thu Nov 19 09:14:03 1998 From: icollins at scotland.net (Iain Collins) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:14:03 +0800 Subject: manners In-Reply-To: <802566C1.00536A3E.00@seunt002e.ssa.co.uk> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at toad.com]On > Behalf Of Richard.Bragg at ssa.co.uk > Sent: 19 November 1998 15:15 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: manners > > > There are ways and means. If someone requests software that is NOT free > then a simple NO will surfice. A list of contacts to purchase would aid > income for the producer. > An additional approach would be to suggest alternatives that are free. > > There is never any call to be rude. It is _rude_ to ask for stolen goods - particularly when implicating everyone on this list as an accessory to intent to commit piracy - who does not report this luser to the authorities in the - process. It is also rude to send inappropriate posts to this mailing list. This is the cypherpunks mailing list - Not an IRC or hotline channel. Warez requests are wholly inappropriate for this list, please read the FAQ! The suggestion to seek free alternatives is well grounded, although I'd add that they would more appropriately be sent directly to the poster (with a polite note referring him to the FAQ). Regards, Iain Collins, From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 09:30:16 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:30:16 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd In-Reply-To: <365440DB.A689C02@brainlink.com> Message-ID: <199811191653.KAA06166@manifold.algebra.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > > > "Igor Chudov @ home" wrote: > > > Well, take 11, for example, it cannot be repsesented as a sum of different > > primes. It cannot, pure and simple. > > Bullshit: 7+5+(-1)=11. Last I heard, negative numbers weren't excluded from > being primes. 7 is different from 5, -1 is different from 7 and from 5. I have no idea where you heard it, but primes are numbers greater than 1, by definition. - Igor. From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de Thu Nov 19 09:44:05 1998 From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:44:05 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811191607.KAA03257@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <36545295.436F8BB6@stud.uni-muenchen.de> Goldbach's conjecture is claimed to have been proved by Benschop. See http://www.ams.org/preprints/11/199805/199805-11-001/199805-11-001.html M. K. Shen From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 09:46:56 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:46:56 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers (fwd) Message-ID: <199811191722.LAA04172@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:18:26 -0500 > From: Ray Arachelian > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers > So I guess I have to take back 7+5+(-1) and go with Jim's 1+3+7, but fuck, > that won't work either since 1 isn't a prime... So I guess Igor is right on > this one. Sorry Jim... A prime is defined as *ANY* number (note the definition doesn't mention sign or magnitude nor does it exclude any numbers a priori) that has no multiplicative factors other than itself and 1. 1 * 1 = 1 so it is clearly prime. Now, if a particular branch of number theory wants to extend it and make it only numbers >=2 that is fine, I'm not working in that branch anyway. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 09:50:54 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:50:54 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd (fwd) Message-ID: <199811191719.LAB04034@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:53:50 -0600 (CST) > From: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov @ home) > I have no idea where you heard it, but primes are numbers greater than 1, > by definition. Actualy a prime is any number which has no multiplicitave factors other than itself and 1. Does that mean negatives can't be prime numbers? So, -3 breaks down to: -3 * 1 = -3; 3 * -1 would be another set of factors so negatives can't be primes in the strictest sense. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sunder at brainlink.com Thu Nov 19 09:57:01 1998 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:57:01 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers In-Reply-To: <365448AE.D504F2D6@acm.org> Message-ID: <365452E2.CE92ED6A@brainlink.com> Jim Gillogly wrote: > > Ray Arachelian wrote: > > "Igor Chudov @ home" wrote: > > > > Well, take 11, for example, it cannot be repsesented as a sum of different > > > primes. It cannot, pure and simple. > > > Bullshit: 7+5+(-1)=11. Last I heard, negative numbers weren't excluded from > > being primes. 7 is different from 5, -1 is different from 7 and from 5. > > If this is boiling down to a definition of primes, I'll haul out my Hardy & > Wright, page 2: > > A number p is said to be prime if (i) p > 1, (ii) p has no positive > divisors except 1 and p. ... It is important to observe that 1 is not > reckoned as a prime. > > My number theory class at college (admittedly that was three decades ago) > also started the prime series at 2 and went up from there. The term > "odd primes" always meant 3 and above, not 1 and above. Well, I suppose negative numbers can't be included because 1 can't be included: 1*1*1*1=1 and the idea is that a prime can only have itself and 1 as factors, where 1 can be factored by itself over and over to an infinite number of 1's, and by that definition you can exclude -1 since -1=(-1*1*-1*1), and so if we take -5 and factor it to -5 and 1 it's good, but it can also be factored to -1 and 5. IMHO 1 and -1 being shunned in this way is a bit silly, but whatever... :^) (Same applies to zero since 0=0*0*0*0*0, but zero has the built in difference of that it can't be divided by itself at all.) So I guess I have to take back 7+5+(-1) and go with Jim's 1+3+7, but fuck, that won't work either since 1 isn't a prime... So I guess Igor is right on this one. Sorry Jim... Any other ideas on 11? =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Sunder |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== From sunder at brainlink.com Thu Nov 19 10:16:43 1998 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:16:43 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811191722.LAA04172@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <36545A30.EFE1ABCF@brainlink.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Actually the issue is 1=1*1, 1=1*1*1 ... 1=1^n. If 1 is prime, then -1 must > be prime since -1=1^n where n is odd and 1=1^n where any n is used. The fact > that 1 can be factored from itself recursively is the issue. Duh! I must not have had enough caffeine this morning. Above should say -1=-1^n where N is odd. -- =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Sunder |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== From Sid.Phillips at PSS.Boeing.com Thu Nov 19 10:17:24 1998 From: Sid.Phillips at PSS.Boeing.com (Phillips, Sidney R) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:17:24 +0800 Subject: Goldbach Conjecture Message-ID: For a reference on the Goldbach Conjecture see: http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/math/GoldbachConjecture.html From sunder at brainlink.com Thu Nov 19 10:17:24 1998 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:17:24 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811191722.LAA04172@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <365456C4.5D18C1C6@brainlink.com> Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:18:26 -0500 > > From: Ray Arachelian > > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers > > > So I guess I have to take back 7+5+(-1) and go with Jim's 1+3+7, but fuck, > > that won't work either since 1 isn't a prime... So I guess Igor is right on > > this one. Sorry Jim... > > A prime is defined as *ANY* number (note the definition doesn't mention > sign or magnitude nor does it exclude any numbers a priori) that has no > multiplicative factors other than itself and 1. > > 1 * 1 = 1 so it is clearly prime. > > Now, if a particular branch of number theory wants to extend it and make it > only numbers >=2 that is fine, I'm not working in that branch anyway. Actually the issue is 1=1*1, 1=1*1*1 ... 1=1^n. If 1 is prime, then -1 must be prime since -1=1^n where n is odd and 1=1^n where any n is used. The fact that 1 can be factored from itself recursively is the issue. (If the above weren't true, then -1 could be prime without affecting whether -3's lack of primality: -3=-1*3 and -3=1*-3.) (See: http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/1isprime.html ) -- =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Sunder |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== From jvb at ssds.com Thu Nov 19 10:31:34 1998 From: jvb at ssds.com (Jim Burnes) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:31:34 +0800 Subject: [XCERT-ANNOUNCE] Network Associates Relationship (fwd) Message-ID: Thought this might be of some interest considering the current NAI thread. jim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:13:27 -0800 From: Tim Gage To: xcert-announce at xcert.com Subject: [XCERT-ANNOUNCE] Network Associates Relationship TO: Xcert Friends and Partners FROM: Thomas Nolan, president and CEO DATE: November 18, 1998 RE: Network Associates Relationship _______________________________________ I'm pleased to report that Xcert International and Network Associates Inc. (NAI) recently announced a technology licensing agreement where NAI will integrate Xcert's software as the default PKI in their Net Tools Secure product suite. This relationship will PKI enable NAI's security offerings-including a suite of best-in-class security applications that encompasses firewall, intrusion protection, vulnerability scanning, encryption, authentication, anti-virus and security management. NAI is a company with approximately $1 Billion in revenue, 5,000 enterprise customers, presence on 60 million desktops and 80% plus penetration into the Global 2000. This is a significant win for Xcert and provides for joint marketing and sales activities, including licensing of certain NAI applications to Xcert, pre-notification of NAI product and technology direction and, most important, the ability for Xcert to work with NAI to sell general purpose PKI into their installed customer base.. Xcert was selected over its competitors because of its superior technology, principally the ability to interoperate with other vendors. NAI's market-leading Total Network Security solution will seed Xcert's technology into the market and will also provide NAI's customers with "hooks" to seamlessly build Xcert's general purpose PKI infrastructure and products into their networks. This is a significant win for Xcert. The NAI adoption of Xcert as their preferred PKI provider adds value to Xcert's brand recognition. This news is yet another compelling endorsement of Xcert's products. In addition, the ability to work with NAI's customer base provides substantial opportunity to Xcert. I am sure you will share my enthusiasm for this momentous milestone on Xcert's road to major market share. ------------------------------------------------------------- For Immediate Release: NETWORK ASSOCIATES TO SHIP COMPREHENSIVE PKI FROM XCERT INTERNATIONAL WITH ALL SECURITY PRODUCT SUITES Network Associates Customers to Receive Scalable Open-Standards Certificate Management Integrated Into Net Tools Secure Product Line SANTA CLARA, Calif., November 17 - Network Associates, Inc. (Nasdaq: NETA) unveiled the next step in its integrated security strategy today by announcing a technology partnership with Xcert International that will bring full open-standards PKI (public key infrastructure) functionality to all Network Associates customers as a standard feature of its integrated security product suites. Beginning in the first quarter of 1999, all integrated security suites from Network Associates will include the new Net Tools PKI server, an enterprise-scaleable PKI server based on Xcert's award-winning digital certificate management technology. "Network Associates has been very aggressive in driving much needed open standards and interoperability in the security space," said Sanjay Kalra, president of Icons, Inc., a leading nationwide PKI consulting firm. "By working with Xcert to include a complete standards-based PKI in all of their security application suites at no extra charge, Network Associates is making things like universal client VPNs and active response firewalls a reality for customers of all sizes. This announcement is the perfect follow-up to their previous PKI partnerships with VeriSign and Entrust." As a result of this partnership, Network Associates customers will be able to broadly deploy integrated security solutions that interoperate through secure and authenticated channels. With this announcement, Network Associates becomes the first vendor to enable secure, scaleable integration between individual security applications by providing flexible PKI functionality out of the box and universally supporting existing PKI solutions like those from partners like VeriSign (Nasdaq: VRSN), Entrust Technologies (Nasdaq: ENTU) and Xcert. Network Associates customers will be licensed to use the new Net Tools PKI with any Network Associates application. Under the terms of the agreement, Network Associates will integrate Xcert's award-winning PKI technology into its Net Tools Secure product line, a suite of best-in-class security applications spanning firewall, intrusion protection, vulnerability scanning, encryption, authentication, anti-virus, and security management. Xcert's flexible open architecture has received multiple industry accolades this year, including a recent Editor's Choice selection from Network Computing that praised Xcert's technology as the "best strategic choice for PKI in the enterprise." Xcert's technology was selected by Network Associates because of its broad support of all industry PKI standards, including x.509, PGP, LDAP, and PKCS #7, 10, and 11. "Network Associates is committed to promoting broad interoperability and open standards in the security industry," said Peter Watkins, general manager of the Net Tools Secure division at Network Associates. "This agreement makes it even easier for our customers to deploy scaleable, standards-based, security applications that work together in concert to actively respond to changing security threats." "This technology license agreement expands Network Associates' best-of-breed security offerings to include the industrial-strength PKI necessary for conducting business-to-business electronic commerce and communications," said Thomas Nolan, President and CEO of Xcert International. "Network Associates customers will be able to broadly deploy distributed security applications, regardless of whether or not they have a general PKI solution. Because Xcert's technology supports all certificate standards, Network Associates customers will also be able to interact seamlessly with business partners who have disparate PKI solutions in use." While other security application vendors have recently discussed plans to integrate their products, none have addressed universal PKI support, an essential element to making integrated security a secure and scaleable reality for enterprise customers. As a result of this agreement, Network Associates customers will be able to broadly deploy distributed security applications such as remote VPN and client-side encryption across large user populations. The new Net Tools PKI will also support more robust certificate management for authenticated communications between integrated Network Associates security applications. Through a concept known as "Active Security", Network Associates is enabling its security products to operate in concert, actively communicating events between applications and adapting security policies of these applications for real-time active response when critical security threats are detected. With headquarters in Santa Clara, California, Network Associates, Inc. is a leading supplier of enterprise network security and management software. Network Associates' Net Tools Secure and Net Tools Manager offer best-of-breed, suite-based network security and management solutions. Net Tools Secure and Net Tools Manager suites combine to create Net Tools, which centralizes these point solutions within an easy-to-use integrated systems management environment. For more information, Network Associates can be reached at (408) 988-3832 or on the Internet at http://www.nai.com. Based in Walnut Creek, California, Xcert International Inc. is the premier developer of Public Key Infrastructure technology. Xcert's products provide privacy and authenticity for conducting secure Internet business transactions. Xcert develops, manufactures and distributes Certificate Authority and public key infrastructure solutions that use secure directory services to provide organizations and individuals with a ubiquitous and secure method of communicating with each other over the Internet. Xcert also licenses its underlying PKI technology to selected service providers and third party developers worldwide. Xcert can be reached on the World Wide Web at http://www.xcert.com. FOR MORE INFORMATION: Ruby Qurashi, Tim Gage Xcert International Inc. 925-274-9300 Ext .108 rubyq at xcert.com / timg at xcert.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- XCERT-ANNOUNCE: Xcert Software Announcements Mailing List to remove yourself from this mailing list, please send mail containing "unsubscribe xcert-announce" in the body to majordomo at xcert.com From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 19 10:32:55 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:32:55 +0800 Subject: learn computer forensics with the boys from the US Treasury Message-ID: <199811191740.SAA22354@replay.com> COURSE TITLE: Computer Encryption/Decryption LENGTH OF PRESENTATION: Lecture Laboratory Practical Exercise Total 2:00 2:00 2:00 6:00 DESCRIPTION: Advancing computer technology, coupled with a growing user awareness of privacy and security issues, has resulted in the widespread use of program, electronic mail, and data file encryption techniques. Today seemingly all sophisticated applications have their own optional encryption schemes including WordPerfect, Word, Lotus, Excel, and a host of others. The computer investigator can expect to encounter encrypted (unreadable) files when examining seized computer evidence. This course demonstrates software tools which will enable the student to decreypt many different files, and examines features of the most commonly used encryption/decryption tool used today: PGP. http://www.ustreas.gov/fletc/ffi/scers.htm From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 19 10:39:44 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:39:44 +0800 Subject: Piracy and cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <36543A3F.37AC99B@acm.org> Message-ID: At 7:33 AM -0800 11/19/98, Jim Gillogly wrote: >holist writes: >> Having read a significant amount of material on the ideological (rather than >> the technical) background of cypherpunks (Tim May's writings, mainly) it >> seems to me rather obvious that a relative newcomer to these circles would >> come to expect to find people who may not be "mannered intellectuals", but >> who are certainly not erstwhile defenders of intellectual property, >> particularly asthe concept is applied to software today. > >Hurm. Does Tim May advocate passing around unlicensed copies of an $895 >Statgraphics program? I think I must have missed that post. In any case, >cypherpunks are not a monolithic bunch. While many (like me) are wild-eyed >libertarians of one flavor or another, others are feds, corporate shills, >government apologists, prepubescent hackers, and (d'oh) working professionals >in the computing industry. I, for example, do believe that the concept of >intellectual property makes sense in some cases -- e.g. the inventions of >public-key encryption and the RSA algorithm, which were important >breakthroughs >that merit substantial rewards, and I recognize that this is probably not a >majority cypherpunk opinion. I do appreciate patents on all the >ticky-tack trivial modifications of every silly algorithm that nobody else >thought was worth patenting. Somewhat off-topic, though issues of property, ownership, law, enforcement, etc., are related to Cypherpunks and/or anarchocapitalist topics. Anyway, I've expressed my views in many posts, mostly in the early years of the list, and in the 1994 Cyphernomicon. Off the top of my head, without reference to these earlier items, here are a few points. Some of them may contradict other points (I contain multitudes): -- "warez" distribution is not a primary purpose for Cypherpunks, either at the physical meetings I've been to, or in the 6 years of the list -- I generally pay for my programs, though this has often made me a sucker (paying $400 for a product which failed to perform, or where the company ceased to exist) -- I have "borrowed" programs, e.g., pirated them. I think most of us have. This is not my normal practice, but, then, I don't blithely write out checks for $400 or $795 for programs I have only _heard_ about, or have only read _reviews_ of. (Corporations have the resources, and the number of potential "seats," to make evaluation purchases feasible. In many cases, even most, the companies are given copies for evaluation. Private individuals usually have no such paths available to them. I'm not arguing for a "right of theft" for individuals, just noting some obvious differences. An individual who has "borrowed" a copy of a program is in a somewhat different position than, for example, a corporation which has made 30 illegal copies of that program for their office use. And not just because of the number of copies, in my view.) -- all issues of intellectual property are also issues of _enforceability_. To the extent anonymous remailers, information markets, regulatory arbitrage, systems like "BlackNet" ("BlackeBay," anyone?), and other crypto anarchy technologies proliferate, enforcement of any particular nation's intellectual property laws will become problematic. -- finally, the U.S. position on patentability and copyrightability of software and words is not the only position one may find morally supportable. We do not, for example, allow "ideas" to be patented or copyrighted (I don't mean "expressions of ideas," as in patents, or "precise words," as in copyrights. Rather, I mean that we do not allow a person to "own" an idea. To imagine the alternative, cf. Galambos.) Long term, I expect current notions about intellectual property will have to change. I'm a big believer in "technological determinism." For example, in my own view (which I have debated with some well known cyberspace lawyers over the years), the widespread deployment of video cassette recorders (VCRs) necessarily changed the intellectual property laws. The Supreme Court, in Disney v. Sony, uttered a bunch of stuff about time-shifting, blah blah, but the real reason, I think, boiled down to this: "VCRs have become widespread. If people tape shows in their own homes, even violating copyrighted material, there is no way law enforcement can stop them short of instituting a police state and doing random spot checks. The horse is out of the barn, the genie is out of the bottle. The law has to change. But rather than admit that copyright is no longer practically enforceable, we have to couch our decision in terms of "time-shifting" and other such fig leaves." So, too, will anonymous remailers, black pipes, information markets, regulatory arbitrage, and suchlike change the nature of intellectual property. What form these changes will take, I don't know. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com Thu Nov 19 10:59:25 1998 From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:59:25 +0800 Subject: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math Message-ID: <36545A6A.85BCB07A@dev.tivoli.com> http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/1isprime.html -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we started, and to know the place for the first time. T.S. Eliot Tivoli Systems James F. Choate 9442 Capital of Texas Hwy. N. 512-436-1062 Austin, Tx. 78759 jchoate at tivoli.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math Ask Dr. Math - Questions and Answers from our Archives Back to About Numbers || All Levels || Search Dr. Math Why is 1 Not Considered Prime? Date: 20 Mar 1995 12:22:37 -0500 From: ioostind at cln.etc.bc.ca (Ian Oostindie) Subject: Why 1 is prime My friend, Roger Gillies told me he received some useful math information from you and gave me your e-mail address. I thought of you when a grade six student stumped me with a classic. Well, at least a classic in my mind. Just recently a grade six student asked me "Why is 1 not considered prime?" I tried to answer but as usual could not since I do not understand this either. I thought it may lie in the fact that "we" don't use the true definition or we are interpreting it wrong. A prime is normally described as a number that can be expressed by only one and itself. We exclude all non-natural numbers from the set that we will be working on and then everything is fine except for when we work with 1. 1 = 1 x 1. That is, one equals 1 times itself and there is no other combination. Now to the grade six student in Faro Yukon, I said there may be a small print clause in the contract with the math gods that says you can only write it once since 1 also equals 1x1x1x1x... This would not work for other primes such as two: 2 does not equal 1x2x2x2x... Likewise, 3 does not equal 1x3x3x3x... Patterns are very important to mathematics, I further explained, and this is a pattern I see being broken. I showed this in a slightly different way to the grade sixer but in essence the same. My question to you, Dr. Math, is what is the small print in the contract with the Math gods and how do we explain it to the grade six kids that are supposed to know it? Thank you very much for any consideration you make. Date: 25 Mar 1995 16:21:45 -0500 From: Dr. Ken Subject: Re: Why 1 is prime Hello there! Yes, you're definitely on the right track. In fact, it's precisely because of "patterns that mathematicians don't like to break" that 1 is not defined as a prime. Perhaps you have seen the theorem (even if you haven't, I'm sure you know it intuitively) that any positive integer has a unique factorization into primes. For instance, 4896 = 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and this is the only possible way to factor 4896. But what if we allow 1 in our list of prime factors? Well, then we'd also get 1 * 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and 1^75 * 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and so on. So really, the flavor of the theorem is true only if you don't allow 1 in there. So why didn't we just say something like "a prime factorization is a factorization in which there are no factors of 1" or something? Well, it turns out that if you look at some more number theory and you accept 1 as a prime number, you'd have all kinds of theorems that say things like "This is true for all prime numbers except 1" and stuff like that. So rather than always having to exclude 1 every time we use prime numbers, we just say that 1 isn't prime, end of story. Incidentally, if you want to call 1 something, here's what it is: it's called a "unit" in the integers (as is -1). What that means is that if we completely restrict ourselves to the integers, we use the word "unit" for the numbers that have reciprocals (numbers that you can multiply by to get 1). For instance, 2 isn't a unit, because you can't multiply it by anything else (remember, 1/2 isn't in our universe right now) and get 1. This is how we think about things in Abstract Algebra, something sixth graders won't need to worry about for a long time, but I thought I'd mention it. -Ken "Dr." Math Submit your own question to Dr. Math _____________________________________ Math Forum Home || The Collection || Quick Reference || Math Forum Search _____________________________________ Ask Dr. Math � 1994-1998 The Math Forum This page was created by the Forum SmartPage suite of web tools. Sun Nov 15 23:38:44 1998 From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 11:10:28 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:10:28 +0800 Subject: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math (fwd) Message-ID: <199811191827.MAA04861@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:50:34 -0600 > Subject: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math > http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/1isprime.html > > math gods that says you can only write it once since 1 also > equals 1x1x1x1x... This would not work for other primes > such as two: 2 does not equal 1x2x2x2x... Likewise, 3 does > not equal 1x3x3x3x... Whether the 1 is there or not is irrelevant, 3x3x3x3... is not 3 in the first place. 3x1x1x1x1.... IS 3. > Patterns are very important to mathematics, I further > explained, and this is a pattern I see being broken. > Date: 25 Mar 1995 16:21:45 -0500 > From: Dr. Ken > Subject: Re: Why 1 is prime > Yes, you're definitely on the right track. In fact, it's precisely > because of "patterns that mathematicians don't like to break" > that 1 is not defined as a prime. Perhaps you have seen the > theorem (even if you haven't, I'm sure you know it intuitively) > that any positive integer has a unique factorization into primes. > For instance, 4896 = 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and this is the only possible > way to factor 4896. But what if we allow 1 in our list of prime > factors? Well, then we'd also get 1 * 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and > 1^75 * 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and so on. So really, the flavor of the > theorem is true only if you don't allow 1 in there. This definition of a prime has one serious drawback. It ignores the fundamental identity theorem of arithmatic: 1 * n = n So, as a result we're in the interesting and potentialy untenable situation of defining a identity theorem, base our math on it, and then come along one day and say it doesn't apply anymore WITHOUT making any other changes to the structure of the theories.... This is VERY BAD science/math. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 11:12:33 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:12:33 +0800 Subject: Anyone know where to get EURISKO? Message-ID: <199811191834.MAA05016@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, Anyone got a clue on where to get a copy of EURISKO (language isn't important since I want to convert it to Perl)? I'm playing with some number theory stuff and since EURISKO was pretty good at I'd be interested in seein the specifics of Lenet's approach. All I've been able to find so far are very general descriptions in the various AI sites. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From stuffed at stuffed.net Fri Nov 20 03:14:11 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED FRI NOV 20) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:14:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: STUFFED NOW HAS LINKS TO 100S MORE PHOTOS! Message-ID: <19981120081000.21237.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> CHECK OUT ALL THE NEW STUFF IN STUFFED! + WHAT'S WRONG WITH SEX? + CYBERIAN GIRLS + STAR WHORES + MATURE WOMEN + LAND O LEZ + XXX FREE PUSSY + INDIAN PORN + ASS HUMPER + SMUT FOR FREE + EXXXTACY PORNO + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From mgraffam at idsi.net Thu Nov 19 11:21:34 1998 From: mgraffam at idsi.net (mgraffam at idsi.net) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:21:34 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199811191115.DAA14438@toad.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, holist wrote: > I understand that there may be other reasons why it is unwise to post > requests for warez on these lists, but moral outrage at the thought of > software piracy was not one I expected to read here. I for one am not a tremendous fan of copyright as applied to software today. I support the theory .. as a programmer I can appreciate the effort that goes into software development and I don't wish to see such developers harmed by piracy. OTOH, the consumer has a vested interest in sampling software before he pays for it. I wouldn't buy a car if I wasn't allowed to test drive it first. If someone offered me a car that I could not test drive, and that I could not return if it is defective, I certainly wouldn't buy the thing. As a consumer it is a bad move, though it certainly helps the car manufacturers (they can make a defective product with no worries). A prime example of this is Win98 .. a friend of mine was running win95 happily and smoothly (well, as smooth as win95 gets). He upgraded to 98. It crashed several times during the install procedure, and make his win95 set up unusable in the process. He can't return his win98 upgrade and get his money back (due to copyright), and he wasn't allowed to test it all out before spending the cash. In a word, he is screwed. We can't ignore the programmer's need to get paid and we can't ignore the consumer's need to a fair shake. We need to find a common ground. Now, for small $40 word processors, a sampling system is probably not worth the trouble. But for expensive or important packages (like OS's) sampling the software first is a good thing. > Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for > pornography that I receive every two days, regular as clockwork, from the > cypherpunks list, not to mention the great deal of other entirely useless, > automatically generated advertising. That is spam. Cypherpunks is an open list (any messages sent in are distributed freely). Why not find a nice free web-based email service with mail filtering? Filter the porn out before you even get the mail forwarded to your, or before you read it over the web or POP or whatever. Michael J. Graffam (mgraffam at idsi.net) "Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine." Henry David Thoreau "Civil Disobedience" From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 19 11:36:35 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:36:35 +0800 Subject: manners In-Reply-To: <802566C1.00536A3E.00@seunt002e.ssa.co.uk> Message-ID: At 8:21 AM -0800 11/19/98, Iain Collins wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at toad.com]On >> Behalf Of Richard.Bragg at ssa.co.uk >> Sent: 19 November 1998 15:15 >> To: cypherpunks at toad.com >> Subject: manners >> >> >> There are ways and means. If someone requests software that is NOT free >> then a simple NO will surfice. A list of contacts to purchase would aid >> income for the producer. >> An additional approach would be to suggest alternatives that are free. >> >> There is never any call to be rude. > >It is _rude_ to ask for stolen goods - particularly when implicating >everyone on this list as an accessory to intent to commit piracy - who does >not report this luser to the authorities in the - process. Nonsense. I am not "implicated" as an accessory to anything. Speak for yourself only. There is no basis in law for the notion that several hundred subscribers to a mailing list are implicated in something because others talk about it. Get real. As for the claim that we are "lusers" if we don't report this request, let us know how your own report is received. I will check for your posts regularly, and report you to the proper authorities if you fail in your self-declared duty here. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 19 12:30:38 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:30:38 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks is not a moderated list In-Reply-To: <199811191115.DAA14438@toad.com> Message-ID: At 3:15 AM -0800 11/19/98, holist wrote: >I only subscribed to this list a few weeks ago. I break my silence in >defense of Bernardo B. Terrado, who was viciously attacked by Adam Hupp and >then rather more graciously advised by Jim Gillogly. > >Having read a significant amount of material on the ideological (rather than >the technical) background of cypherpunks (Tim May's writings, mainly) it >seems to me rather obvious that a relative newcomer to these circles would >come to expect to find people who may not be "mannered intellectuals", but >who are certainly not erstwhile defenders of intellectual property, >particularly asthe concept is applied to software today. > >I understand that there may be other reasons why it is unwise to post >requests for warez on these lists, but moral outrage at the thought of >software piracy was not one I expected to read here. Don't confuse the views you hear from some particular person(s) to be the collective, group views of the list, or the views of me, and so on. (This applies to your point below about porn, too.) > >Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for >pornography that I receive every two days, regular as clockwork, from the >cypherpunks list, not to mention the great deal of other entirely useless, >automatically generated advertising. > >Unlike most of you lucky people in the States, I pay through the nose for >on-line time. > >Perhaps priorities could do with rethinking. You seem to think the Cypherpunks mailing list is some kind of moderated, edited forum, with porn ads sent deliberately by the Governing Body of Editors. What goes out to the *reflector* is what comes in. Nothing more, nothing less. You are of course free to create your own moderated, edited list. Oh, and please learn to attach Subject names to your posts. And "cypherpunks at toad.com" is not one of the preferred list addresses...hasn't been for a year or two. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 12:32:55 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:32:55 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811191719.LAB04034@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811191948.NAA07880@manifold.algebra.com> Jim Choate wrote: > > > Forwarded message: > > > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd > > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:53:50 -0600 (CST) > > From: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov @ home) > > > I have no idea where you heard it, but primes are numbers greater than 1, > > by definition. > > Actualy a prime is any number which has no multiplicitave factors other than > itself and 1. > > Does that mean negatives can't be prime numbers? > > So, -3 breaks down to: > > -3 * 1 = -3; 3 * -1 would be another set of factors so negatives can't be > primes in the strictest sense. Negatives are not primes by definition. - Igor. From nobody at nowhere.to Thu Nov 19 12:38:03 1998 From: nobody at nowhere.to (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:38:03 +0800 Subject: simple socket forwarder Message-ID: <4a450e23d08fc272ab3f6260ccf0edcd@anonymous> Does anyone have a simple packet forwarder to run on a unix system? I want to set up a daemon on an account to just redirect traffic from a particular port to another host for some basic anonymity, but I don't have experience doing socket coding, nor a book. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 12:41:00 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:41:00 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers In-Reply-To: <365456C4.5D18C1C6@brainlink.com> Message-ID: <199811191950.NAA07904@manifold.algebra.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:18:26 -0500 > > > From: Ray Arachelian > > > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers > > > > > So I guess I have to take back 7+5+(-1) and go with Jim's 1+3+7, but fuck, > > > that won't work either since 1 isn't a prime... So I guess Igor is right on > > > this one. Sorry Jim... > > > > A prime is defined as *ANY* number (note the definition doesn't mention > > sign or magnitude nor does it exclude any numbers a priori) that has no > > multiplicative factors other than itself and 1. > > > > 1 * 1 = 1 so it is clearly prime. > > > > Now, if a particular branch of number theory wants to extend it and make it > > only numbers >=2 that is fine, I'm not working in that branch anyway. > > Actually the issue is 1=1*1, 1=1*1*1 ... 1=1^n. If 1 is prime, then -1 must > be prime since -1=1^n where n is odd and 1=1^n where any n is used. The fact > that 1 can be factored from itself recursively is the issue. People, please open ANY math book and see the definition for yourselves. 1 is not a prime by definition. Not because of any other reason. Besides, -1=1^n is just not true for any n. igor > (If the above weren't true, then -1 could be prime without affecting whether > -3's lack of primality: -3=-1*3 and -3=1*-3.) > > (See: http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/1isprime.html ) > > > -- > > =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== > .+.^.+.| Sunder |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. > ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ > <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ > ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. > .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... > ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== > - Igor. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 12:41:38 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:41:38 +0800 Subject: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811191827.MAA04861@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811191953.NAA07957@manifold.algebra.com> Jim Choate wrote: > > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:50:34 -0600 > > Subject: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math > > > http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/1isprime.html > > > > > > math gods that says you can only write it once since 1 also > > equals 1x1x1x1x... This would not work for other primes > > such as two: 2 does not equal 1x2x2x2x... Likewise, 3 does > > not equal 1x3x3x3x... > > Whether the 1 is there or not is irrelevant, > > 3x3x3x3... is not 3 in the first place. > > 3x1x1x1x1.... IS 3. > > > Patterns are very important to mathematics, I further > > explained, and this is a pattern I see being broken. > > > Date: 25 Mar 1995 16:21:45 -0500 > > From: Dr. Ken > > Subject: Re: Why 1 is prime > > > Yes, you're definitely on the right track. In fact, it's precisely > > because of "patterns that mathematicians don't like to break" > > that 1 is not defined as a prime. Perhaps you have seen the > > theorem (even if you haven't, I'm sure you know it intuitively) > > that any positive integer has a unique factorization into primes. > > For instance, 4896 = 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and this is the only possible > > way to factor 4896. But what if we allow 1 in our list of prime > > factors? Well, then we'd also get 1 * 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and > > 1^75 * 2^5 * 3^2 * 17, and so on. So really, the flavor of the > > theorem is true only if you don't allow 1 in there. > > This definition of a prime has one serious drawback. > > It ignores the fundamental identity theorem of arithmatic: > > 1 * n = n it is not a theorem, it is a part of the definition of multiplication. It is, in truth, arithmetics. igor > So, as a result we're in the interesting and potentialy untenable > situation of defining a identity theorem, base our math on it, and then > come along one day and say it doesn't apply anymore WITHOUT making any > other changes to the structure of the theories.... > > This is VERY BAD science/math. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want > the right answers. > > Scully (X-Files) > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > - Igor. 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If you are a Washington resident or otherwise wish to be removed from this list, go to global remove site if you want your address removed from future mailing. http://209.84.246.162/remove.htm This Global Communication has been sent to you by: PAVILION INTERNATIONAL SERVICES Offices: London, Paris, Berlin, Hong Kong From schear at lvcm.com Thu Nov 19 13:08:27 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:08:27 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: <199811132049.OAA05427@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: >Nobody that has been on this list very long could have been duped...We all >know that some group of MIB types would have swooped down on the guy, and >he would have been just another heart attack statistic... I raised a similar thread last year. I caused quite a bit of comment. Since then I've discussed the possibility of employing a common yeast or other organism to allow individuals to create their own home pharmacies with friends and acquintances in this sector. Their opinions vary but all assured me that desktop genetic engineering and production capabilities are likely no more than 10 years away and that fed measures to prevent this will likely be singularly ineffective. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 13:32:14 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:32:14 +0800 Subject: simple socket forwarder In-Reply-To: <4a450e23d08fc272ab3f6260ccf0edcd@anonymous> Message-ID: <199811192049.OAA08505@manifold.algebra.com> Anonymous wrote: > > Does anyone have a simple packet forwarder to run > on a unix system? I want to set up a daemon on an > account to just redirect traffic from a particular port > to another host for some basic anonymity, but I don't > have experience doing socket coding, nor a book. > It seems that what you need is called a proxy server. There was a perl script floating around that worked as a proxy server. If you do it for web accesses, consider using Crowd, a distributed network of anonymizing proxy servers. - Igor. From jf_avon at citenet.net Thu Nov 19 13:36:29 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:36:29 +0800 Subject: Search and Seizure abuse... Message-ID: <199811192050.PAA01218@cti06.citenet.net> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:22:14 -0800, Steve Schear wrote: NOTE: I AM NOT ON CYPHERPUNKS. PLEASE Cc ME DIRECTLY. >>We're out of luck here! Owning explosive is verboten! >>And real soon, passing gaz with a high content of methane will be an >>indictable offence! :-) > >Certainly you're not constraining a response to an illegal use of force to >legal means ;-) Well, maybe, maybe not. It depends. No use of becoming a martyr if nobody cares... Blowing a SWAT team would be just the right thing to get forever in the klink, while blowing up the story over the net might blow-up the klinks themselves... It is all a question of return on investment, and what price you can afford. Happily enough, we now have strong encryption and the net. There is much less need to spill blood in order to disseminate information. >>Everything you own is a privilege given to you by the Ruler. Didn't you >>know that komrade? > >Rights are what you insist you have and can make stick through any means at >your disposal. If the use of force was optimal, historically, we'd have been living in paradize since the first fight of all time happened. Only, it doesn't work that way... > Our colonial revolutionaries certainly didn't limit the >scope of their rights by what King George allowed. I wholeheartedly agree, but neither did they live in the same context. Beside, it was the only way they could act. Nowadays, we have the phone and the net. But I agree that without threath of physical action, no govt (itself based ultimately on physical threath) will ever stop doing just as it pleases him. Only, you don't have to come up with big house blow-up things. Only the menace of physical resistance and of the dissemination of information suffice. The govt is fed by the voluntary actions of the citizenry. The day large groups decide to stop paying taxes, the govt will simply starve and grind to a halt. Ciao jfa Jean-Francois Avon, B.Sc. Physics, Montreal, Canada DePompadour, Soci�t� d'Importation Lt�e Limoges fine porcelain and french crystal JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers Instrumentation & control, LabView programming PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:0xC58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:0x5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C PGP ID:0x6CBA71F7:485888E9FD68415A2945 ACCB366D38486CBA71F7 From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 13:39:26 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:39:26 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811192052.OAA08530@manifold.algebra.com> I would certainly appreciate pot yeast. Yeast generally is a very tasty thing, and pot yeast will be truly yummy. You could cook pot bread, pancakes, etc. igor Steve Schear wrote: > > > >Nobody that has been on this list very long could have been duped...We all > >know that some group of MIB types would have swooped down on the guy, and > >he would have been just another heart attack statistic... > > I raised a similar thread last year. I caused quite a bit of comment. Since > then I've discussed the possibility of employing a common yeast or other > organism to allow individuals to create their own home pharmacies with > friends and acquintances in this sector. Their opinions vary but all > assured me that desktop genetic engineering and production capabilities are > likely no more than 10 years away and that fed measures to prevent this > will likely be singularly ineffective. > > > - Igor. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 14:14:44 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:14:44 +0800 Subject: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math (fwd) Message-ID: <199811192129.PAA06344@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Math Forum - Ask Dr. Math (fwd) > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 10:48:53 -0800 > From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" > jim, don't be a bonehead. > what would it gain you if one defined 1 as prime?!?!? > "very bad science/math"?? yeah, coming from you!! Quite sendin this shit to my private email, send it to the list. It gains a consistency at the axiomatic level that isn't there now. If it won't do anything to the math you shouldn't object to adding it (course you'll have to add 'applies to all primes except 1' to a lot of theorems. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 19 14:17:27 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:17:27 +0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: Snowball fight '98 - '99 Message-ID: <199811192045.VAA07824@replay.com> Guess what time it is? That's right! It's time to FUCK OFF! Why don't you jam a rusty nail in your snowball, shove it up your ass, spin it around violently, and get back to me when you're dead. Thanks. At 12:42 PM 11/19/98 -0700, ethena at usa.net wrote: > > > GOTCHA!!! > > > \ | / > > > \\ \ | | / // > > > \\\ \\ // /// > > > \\\ ####### /// > > > \\## ##// > > > -- ## ## -- > > > -- ## squish!! ## -- > > > //## ##\\ > > > // ### ### \\ > > > /// ####### \\\ > > > /// // \\ \\\ > > > // / | | \ \\ > > > / | \ > > > > > > You have just been hit with a snow ball! > > > > It's the start of..... > > > Snow Ball Fight '98/'99!!!! > > > > > > One rule to this game.... > > > You can't hit someone who has already hit you! > > > Now...go out there and hit as many people > > > as you can before they get you!! > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl Thu Nov 19 14:20:57 1998 From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:20:57 +0800 Subject: simple socket forwarder Message-ID: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote: >Anonymous wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a simple packet forwarder to run >> on a unix system? I want to set up a daemon on an >> account to just redirect traffic from a particular port >> to another host for some basic anonymity, but I don't >> have experience doing socket coding, nor a book. >> > >It seems that what you need is called a proxy server. > >There was a perl script floating around that worked as a proxy server. > >If you do it for web accesses, consider using Crowd, a distributed >network of anonymizing proxy servers. > > - Igor. > I want to use it as a proxy for NNTP. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Nov 19 14:47:32 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:47:32 +0800 Subject: simple socket forwarder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811192204.QAA09232@manifold.algebra.com> HyperReal-Anon wrote: > ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote: > >Anonymous wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone have a simple packet forwarder to run > >> on a unix system? I want to set up a daemon on an > >> account to just redirect traffic from a particular port > >> to another host for some basic anonymity, but I don't > >> have experience doing socket coding, nor a book. > > > >It seems that what you need is called a proxy server. > >There was a perl script floating around that worked as a proxy server. > >If you do it for web accesses, consider using Crowd, a distributed > >network of anonymizing proxy servers. > > I want to use it as a proxy for NNTP. > Use that perl script or some other proxy server then. - Igor. From schear at lvcm.com Thu Nov 19 15:32:50 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:32:50 +0800 Subject: learn computer forensics with the boys from the US Treasury In-Reply-To: <199811191740.SAA22354@replay.com> Message-ID: I see that the Mac and various Unix varients are not well represented in these courses... --Steve From mail at vipul.net Thu Nov 19 15:42:31 1998 From: mail at vipul.net (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:42:31 +0800 Subject: VSNL Censors Indian Internet Sites. Message-ID: <19981120042043.A2051@fountainhead.vipul.net> ( My 19th nov. post to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net never showed up on the list, so I reposting. Thanks. ) 17 November, 1998 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Vipul Ved Prakash, 2233328. VSNL Censors Indian Internet Sites NEW DELHI, INDIA - VSNL, the Indian Internet monopoly, has been illegally blocking Internet access to a number of Indian web sites for the last several weeks, a Delhi-based Internet presence provider revealed today. The block affects only Indian citizens in India - users anywhere else in the world are not affected. One of the sites targeted is Sense/NET, (www.sensenet.net). Sense/NET lets users of VSNL's text-based shell account use the graphical Netscape browser over their shell accounts, while using only the normal shell account facilities that VSNL provides. With Sense/NET, the common man can surf the Internet just like with VSNL's premium TCP/IP service, but at a fraction of the cost. General Logic, the startup company behind the Sense/NET service, is not taking the blocking of its server lightly. "We did not so much as receive any communication from VSNL about this step, which has the potential to seriously affect our business," said Dr. Pawan Jaitly, a director of the company. "It seems very strange, too, that a security breach was attempted on our server over the Internet just days before the blockage." The censored server, at the (currently blocked) IP address of 208.222.215.97, hosts a number of other web sites including the largest Yellow Pages of Indian exporters and importers available on the Internet and the corporate web sites of the Apple Publishing Technology Center, NewGen Software, and Educational Consultants India Limited. The award-winning web site of Connect magazine, the first Indian print publication to launch a web edition, is also located on the General Logic server. Sense/NET users and others affected by the block who called up VSNL's help desk to request clarification on this issue and access to the sites were told by VSNL staffers that they did not know what the problem was, and that they themselves could not access the sites in question. No official intimation or even acknowledgement about the block has been forthcoming from VSNL. This is not the first time VSNL has blocked access to selected sites on the Internet. On September 19, 1998, online activist Dr. Arun Mehta's writ petition was admitted for hearing in the court of Justice Anil Dev Singh, Delhi High Court, against VSNL, challenging its blockage of certain Internet sites. The sites listed in the petition provide information and software for voice transmissions over the Internet. The petition argues that this action "is wholly without basis in law and amounts to arbitrary and illegal censorship of the petitioner's Fundamental Right to freedom of speech, expression and information as well as an illegal denial of his right to freedom to practice his chosen profession." The petition seeks affirmation that the constitutional rights to free speech apply equally in cyberspace, and it also opens up the issue of VSNL's ban on Internet telephony to judicial scrutiny. The matter will come up for hearing on December 9, 1998. The case is being argued by Mr. Ashok Aggarwal. The Exporters and Importers Yellow Pages web site hosted on General Logic's recently blocked server is a vital e-commerce resource for over sixty-five thousand traders who earn India valuable foreign exchange. "This ban will hurt Indian exporters as well. By banning access to sites... VSNL is cynically choosing to let the nation suffer severe loss if in the process it can safeguard its own monopolistic profits," said Dr. Mehta. "Ironically, VSNL also blocked Educational Consultants, a public sector government organization, with its action." General Logic was able to move all the web sites that were the victims of VSNL's action to a non-blocked area within hours. "Most of our clients didn't even notice their sites and email messages were being blocked by VSNL," said Dr. Jaitly. The Sense/NET site remains blocked, however. "What VSNL is doing is completely illegal. A website is a means of expression and is covered by the right to expression of all indian citizens under article 19(1)a of the Indian Constitution. This can only be restricted under article 19(2) on 'reasonable grounds' which include obscenity, but certainly not the provision of competitive services at reasonable cost," commented Rishab Aiyer Ghosh, managing editor of First Monday, a European journal on Internet law. Last year a duo of computer whiz-kids in Cochin released Shellsock, a software package that made it possible for users of VSNL shell accounts to browse the 'Net graphically. VSNL quickly set about working on ways to break Shellsock, and eventually succeeded in restricting the environment on its shell accounts to the extent that Shellsock was unable to function. General Logic launched its Sense/NET service soon after, with the goal of providing TCP/IP Internet 'tunneling' service to users worldwide, not just in India. "There are other countries suffering under the yoke of state censorship of the Internet, like China, whose authoritatian government, without warning, blocked access to the BBC web site for its citizens," said Dr. Mehta. "VSNL is a monopoly that is crippling India's progress on the Internet front." Even Microsoft, he observed, which holds an effective monopoly in the operating system market worldwide, has no mandate by any government in the market - it has to keep forging ahead or lose to its competitors. "VSNL does not have that motivation, and so it is that the Indian consumer and India suffer." Besides the threat of censorship and poor service, another risk with state monopoly Internet access providers is that they can read your mail, and monitor your communications, as the data flows through their systems. Jaitly disclosed that his company is working on providing strong military grade encryption as part of its Internet tunneling services, to provide secure private networks across untrusted links for business and personal use. "We envision Sense/NET as a sort of 'Meta ISP' providing secure, uncensorable Internet tunneling service to people in places where local access providers are unable or unwilling to deliver full access," said Vipul Ved Prakash, Director of research at General Logic. "We believe in every individual's fundamental right to access human knowledge without restriction. Our message to these people is: 'There's light at the end of the tunnel.'" It's not all crypto-anarchy and dreams of digital revolution, however. Sense/NET is a valuable service for ordinary users who are attempting to make the most effective use of their VSNL shell accounts with the limited services provided. Many of the subscribers to the service are students and other low income groups, who simply cannot afford VSNL's higher priced services. A case in point is that of Pranav Lal, a New Delhi student. Pranav is blind, and VSNL's shell account is next to useless for him. Sense/NET on the other hand allows him to use voice-enabled software to surf the 'net. "I can't afford the VSNL TCP/IP account, but for me it is vital that I am in touch with my peers over the world over the Internet," says Pranav. "Sense/NET is great because it lets me handle my email and navigate the web really simply." "We see the global free flow of ideas across national borders, enabled by digital data communications and encryption technology, as the most liberating development of the 20th century," said Ashish Gulhati head of development at General Logic. "Regulation is futile," he added. The company expects its services will be most in demand in countries where authoritarian regimes are in power. "It's shocking that this kind of thing continues to go on in India," observed Dr. Mehta. "We're the world's largest democracy, on the brink of entering the 21st century as a major player in the global software industry. But we're still enslaved by laws created during the British Raj, even in high priority areas like telecom." [1324 Words] _________________________________________________________________ Notes: 1. Dr. Arun Mehta's petition is at . 2. The Forum for Rights to Electronic Expression articles are at 3. Censored sites: + http://www.sensenet.net/ (Currently blocked) + http://www.trade-india.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.aptc-india.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.edcil.org/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.newgensoft.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.newgen.net/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.connectmagazine.com/ (Now accessible on a new server) + http://www.net2phone.com/ (Currently blocked) + http://www.vocaltec.com/ (Currently blocked) + http://www.netspeak.com/ (Currently blocked) 4. Email addresses: + Dr. Arun Mehta - amehta at cerf.net + Ashish Gulhati - ashish at generalogic.com + Ashok Agarwal - ashokagr at del2.vsnl.net.in + Dr. Pawan Jaitly - pawan at generalogic.com + Rishab Aiyer Ghosh - ghosh at firstmonday.dk + Vipul Ved Prakash - vipul at generalogic.com _________________________________________________________________ Rev: SNPR v0.06 1998/11/17 15:58:14 webmaster at generalogic.com -- VIPUL VED PRAKASH Cryptography. "Everything is what mail at vipul.net | Distributed Systems. | it is because it got http://vipul.net/ | Network Agents. | that way." 91 11 2233328 | Perl Hacking. | 198 Madhuban IP Extension | Linux. | d'arcy thompson. Delhi, INDIA 110 092 / Networked Media. / From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 16:09:11 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:09:11 +0800 Subject: VSNL Censors Indian Internet Sites. (fwd) Message-ID: <199811192330.RAA06852@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:20:43 +0000 > From: Vipul Ved Prakash > Subject: VSNL Censors Indian Internet Sites. > ( My 19th nov. post to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net never showed up on > the list, so I reposting. Thanks. ) > > > 17 November, 1998 > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > Contact: Vipul Ved Prakash, 2233328. > > > VSNL Censors Indian Internet Sites The SSZ list got it. I even forwarded it to a friend who is working on an Indian telco/telcom project. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From chrisharwig at hetnet.nl Thu Nov 19 16:23:00 1998 From: chrisharwig at hetnet.nl (kryz) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:23:00 +0800 Subject: Fw: 1998-11-10 VP Unveils a Vietnam Veterans Virtual Wall on the Internet In-Reply-To: <19981117171159.5.MAIL-SERVER@pub1.pub.whitehouse.gov> Message-ID: ---------- | Date: dinsdag 17 november 1998 16:12:00 | From: The White House | To: Public-Distribution at pub.pub.whitehouse.gov | Subject: 1998-11-10 VP Unveils a Vietnam Veterans Virtual Wall on the Internet | | | THE WHITE HOUSE | | Office of the Vice President | ________________________________________________________________________ | For Immediate Release November 10, 1998 | | | | VICE PRESIDENT GORE UNVEILS A VIETNAM VETERANS | "VIRTUAL WALL" ON THE INTERNET AS PART | OF A NEW VETERAN'S EDUCATION INITIATIVE | | Also, Highlights New World War II Veterans Stamps | | | Washington, DC -- Vice President Gore announced today the creation | of a Vietnam veterans "virtual wall" as part of a new web site to enable | users to search for names and hear personal remembrances of Vietnam | veterans. | | "For 15 years, people have come to the Vietnam Wall to run their | hands across the names and remember those who never came home," Vice | President Gore said. "Now, anybody who can run their hands across a | computer keyboard will be able to make contact with those names and | learn even more -- that these names belong to people who were brothers | and sons, husbands and wives, mothers and daughters and that their | courage helped make our freedom possible." | | The web site -- a joint project of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial | Fund and Winstar Communications, Inc. -- will become available in two | stages: | | Starting Veterans' Day, users will be able to tap into a new | web site on which they can click onto a deceased veteran's name | and hear audio remembrances from family members or friends. | | Starting January 1999, users will be able to walk up to an | on-line virtual wall that recreates the look and feel of the | Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall, run their hands over a | veteran's name as it appears on the actual memorial, and hear | audio remembrances from family members or friends. | | The virtual wall is part of a nationwide program, The Young | Americans Vietnam War Era Studies Project, to help educate students at | over 17,000 American public and private high schools about the Vietnam | War. | | The project will include Vietnam-era high school curriculum guides | that, among other things, will include an introduction to the Vietnam | War; a look at the politics of the war; and information about those who | served. An Internet Education Center will focus on the historical, | social, and political aspects of the war. | | The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund also created a traveling replica | of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, which is currently located in New | York, to allow grieving survivors and families to view the memorial in | their own communities. On Veterans Day, the traveling exhibit will | include kiosks to enable Americans to record their remembrances of the | war for posting on the virtual wall. | | Earlier today, the Vice President unveiled the U.S. Postal | Services' Celebrate the Century stamp series that includes three new | World War II-related stamps: | | the "World War II" stamp that pays tribute to the 16 million | men and women who served and sacrificed in uniform during that | war; | | the "Women Support War Effort" stamp that honors the | contributions of home front war workers, without whom | soldiers, sailors, pilots, and marines could not have achieved | victory; and | | the "GI Bill 1994" stamp that salutes the legislation that | provided benefits for veterans. | | The Vice President praised the American Battle Monuments Commission | and the U.S. Postal Service for coming together to make these | commemorative stamps available to the American public. | | ### | From emc at wire.insync.net Thu Nov 19 16:43:09 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:43:09 +0800 Subject: simple socket forwarder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811200013.SAA03517@wire.insync.net> Someone expresses a software need: > >> Does anyone have a simple packet forwarder to run > >> on a unix system? I want to set up a daemon on an > >> account to just redirect traffic from a particular port > >> to another host for some basic anonymity, but I don't > >> have experience doing socket coding, nor a book. The quick and dirty solution here is to log into localhost with ssh and forward the port. You can screen the ssh, detach it, and forget about it. For instance, if I want to forward connects on port 9999 on unix.com to the NNTP port on news.naughty.net, I simply say screen ssh -R 9999:news.naughty.net:119 localhost Then type the password to the account you are running it on, and detach it. It will live until the next reboot, happily forwarding connects to the appropriate destination. You can also do this with a bounce, or with some of the Hax0r socket utilities, but this is the quickest solution that's probably already there. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 17:00:00 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:00:00 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture Message-ID: <199811200034.SAA07327@einstein.ssz.com> If we go with the flow and exclude 1 (so we don't have to rewrite all our theorems) and assume that all even numbers greater than 2 can be represented as a sum of two prime factors we have a problem... How does one sum 4? 2 + 2? We certainly can't use 3 + 1. If we allow repetition *and* the number 2 as a prime then all even numbers can be written as a string of 2's summed appropriately. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 17:20:35 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:20:35 +0800 Subject: Digital cockroaches, 5 IP's per body by 2000 [CNN] Message-ID: <199811200055.SAA07410@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9811/19/cockroach.cdx.idg/ > (IDG) -- LAS VEGAS - People think they're wired now, but they haven't > seen anything yet. Just wait until the world is populated with silicon > cockroaches - wireless devices that can communicate with each other > and the Internet, said John Sidgmore, CEO of MCI WorldCom, in his > keynote at Comdex/Fall '98. [text deleted] > "Everyone will have an average of five IP objects on their body by > 2000," he predicted. Eventually there will even be digital eye glasses > with voice control that would offer all sorts of information to the > wearer. "Sony is working on the technology, so it'll happen. It'll > cost $20." MORE COMDEX NEWS [INLINE] IDG.net home page IDG.net's [text deleted] > "Industry explosions like this are extremely, exceedingly rare," > Sidgmore said. "I think 40, 50 years from today people will look back > and say this was the Golden Age of Communications." [text deleted] ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph Thu Nov 19 17:31:56 1998 From: bbt at mudspring.uplb.edu.ph (Bernardo B. Terrado) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:31:56 +0800 Subject: manners and piracy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > how could someone giving you a "copy of statgraphics" not be > considered priracy? or were you looking for a donation. if so, you > should have been much more explicit about what you wanted. > > > Well anyway thank you for your reply. > > What I'm trying to point out is this > > it is OK with me if you say "Take your piracy requests elsewhere" > > it is not OK with me if you say " ...fuck yourself" > > what we're trying to point out is this > it is not OK with us if you send warez requests to the list. It is the duty of all to say "Hey! respect intellectual property!" I too am against piracy, now I know that that software i.e statgraphics is not a shareware. Thank you. Exactly my point it is OK if you say "it is not OK with us if you send warez requests to the list." it is not OK if you say ".... fuck yourself" From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 19 17:35:02 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:35:02 +0800 Subject: Search and Seizure abuse... In-Reply-To: <199811192050.PAA01218@cti06.citenet.net> Message-ID: At 12:46 PM -0800 11/19/98, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: > >NOTE: I AM NOT ON CYPHERPUNKS. PLEASE Cc ME DIRECTLY. > Sorry, I won't do this. Anyone who wants to start a discussion on a mailing list SHOULD BE ON THAT MAILING LIST! I have no animosity toward Jean-Francois Avon, but it seems to me he has a couple of times subscribed, unsubscribed, posted blind to the list, posted Canadian gun issues to the list, said he doesn't read the Cypherpunks list anymore, etc. Jeesh. I know it's de rigeur to trash the CP list these days, as in "I no longer have time to wade through the trash on the Cypherpunks list," but people who don't have time to read the list should not then post to it. Jeesh. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From petro at playboy.com Thu Nov 19 18:02:09 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:02:09 +0800 Subject: learn computer forensics with the boys from the US Treasury In-Reply-To: <199811191740.SAA22354@replay.com> Message-ID: At 4:45 PM -0500 11/19/98, Steve Schear wrote: >I see that the Mac and various Unix varients are not well represented in >these courses... That could be because cops only catch the Dumb Ones, which means the ones using Windows. -- petro at playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy. petro at bounty.org-----for everthing else. They wouldn't like that. They REALLY Economic speech IS political speech. wouldn't like that. From par04783 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 10:18:31 1998 From: par04783 at yahoo.com (par04783 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:18:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: re your site Message-ID: <199811201814.KAA07613@toad.com> We'll Submit Your Site To Over 900 Search Engines, Directories, & Indices For A "One Time Cost" Of Only $39.95 *** 100% Money Back Guarantee *** *** Immediately Increase Your Sites Exposure *** For Less Than 4 Cents Each We Will Submit Your Web Site To Over 900 Of The Net's Hottest Search Engines, Directories & Indices. If your site isn't listed in the Search Engines, how can people find you to buy your products or services? For just $39.95 we'll take the work load off your back instead of you trying to do it manually which can take days to do. We're the professionals that are here to help you have a shot at having a successful marketing experience with the internet. You know as well as we that your time is best utilized managing your business and not sitting at some keyboard hours upon hours trying to save less than 4 cents for each submission. See how it's kind of crazy to try to tackle this on your own. It's just not cost effective to try to do this yourself to save just $39.95. See why businesses both large and small have come to us to utilize our services. Hotels, Motels, On-Line Stores, Travel Agents, Colleges, Universities, Governments, Fortune 500 companies, Movie Studios, Chambers Of Commerce and many, many more. Shouldn't you give us a call now? To Learn More, Call Us At The Numbers Below. Call us toll free at (800) 771-2003 in the USA or Canada or (916) 771-4739 outside the USA and we'll provide you with all the necessary information to get you submitted Right Away. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 19 18:22:26 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:22:26 +0800 Subject: Search and Seizure abuse... In-Reply-To: <199811200118.UAA09201@cti06.citenet.net> Message-ID: (Apparently Bob H., juding from the cc: list, forwarded my message to Jean-Francois. I am responding to Jean-Francois' comments, but also am copying the Cypherpunks list.) At 5:15 PM -0800 11/19/98, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: >On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:40:47 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote: > >>:-). >> >>Why don't you just subscribe to cypherpunks and get it over with? >> >>Cheers, >>Bob > >Because of practical time constraints. I am quite active on the firearms >front and if I start getting CPunks stuff, I'll take forever, >notwithstanding what TM said on the topic in 1995 about how little time it >actually take to screen and process the list volume. Yeah, and your "news" items on Canadian gun laws, along with a dozen other people bombarding the CP list with "urgent news," are adding to the clutter. And to the lack of serious discussion. Too many lists, especially, I am sad to say, uncensored lists, are being bombarded by news items. The fact is, there are far, far better ways to get all the news one wants. I refer to Yahoo, Excite, Lycos, Wired, Dejanews, and at least a dozen other such general sites. Not to mention various and sundry sites for news magazines and networks. Some people, even some people actually subscribed to the CP list, routinely bounce a dozen news messages at a time to the CP list. One thing I've taken to doing is to use the "Option-Click" command in Eudora to group _all_ of the messages from one author together and highlight them...then I delete them all at one time. (So, Detweiler, now you know why I may not be responding to your non-news articles...I've been forced to delete the dozens of "vznuri" articles from "Ignition point" and other such news spammers.) >>Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:02:23 -0800 >>To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >>From: Tim May > >>At 12:46 PM -0800 11/19/98, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: >>> >>>NOTE: I AM NOT ON CYPHERPUNKS. PLEASE Cc ME DIRECTLY. >>> >> >>Sorry, I won't do this. >> >>Anyone who wants to start a discussion on a mailing list SHOULD BE ON THAT >>MAILING LIST! > >But, Tim, I have no intention on starting a discussion, I just spam CPunks >with information pertaining to freedom and, to some extent, ITAR. Consider >me as a news service... :-) Your stuff is often days behind what we've already seen, notwithstanding the fact that this list is not a news dump site. (It's especially ironic when one of the news spammers forwards an article written by Declan McCullagh. Declan writes it, the Web sites carry it, "ignition point" newsspams it to subscribers, then some subscriber to "ignition point" who isn't bothering to read the list forwards it to the CP list. Sometimes with a clueless "Hey, thought you guys might be interested in this.") >I refrain to post personnal opinions and simply forward topics that are >freedom-related. Since crypto and firearms are very close cousins indeed, I >think that it might be on topic. You will note that whenever I post on the >CFD, I use a crypto-flavored *.sig file. Come on guys, stop nitpicking! >And among all of CPunks, especially you, Tim May! If you can't do your own analysis, you have no business blindly spamming lists you are not even subscribed to. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 19 18:24:48 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:24:48 +0800 Subject: manners and piracy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:59 PM -0800 11/19/98, Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: > >It is the duty of all to say "Hey! respect intellectual property!" If you send me a check for $350 I will agree to issue the statement "Hey! respect intellectual property!" But it is by no means a duty of anyone to make any kind of political statement. Final hint: Cypherpunks don't respond well to "argument ad shame on 'em." That is, to arguments along the lines of "It is the duty of all to protect X." Or to condemn Y. Or to support Z. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From vortexia at doxx.net Thu Nov 19 18:34:03 1998 From: vortexia at doxx.net (Vortexia) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:34:03 +0800 Subject: The South African Internet Industry Message-ID: <003b01be142b$346d9a60$c9e431ce@vort.nis.za> Hi, the following is the situation as it stands with the development of internet in south africa, and how things are being monopolised by 2 groups, fighting for power, at the cost of the average internet user. The 2 current groups fighting at the moment for power are the ISPA (the internet service providers association) and the telecomms company, guaranteed a monopoly on all telecomms in this country until 2003. The fight to date has gone as far as telkom trying to claim that the internet falls under their telecomms monopoly law and therefore they get a monopoly on it in this country. This was rejected by SATRA (South African Telecomms Regulations Authority) but the internet was still placed as a telecomms service, subject to the telecomms acts. Up until this time, the fights between the ISPA and Telkom have not as yet had much bearing on the average internet user in this country, however suddenly the hacking scene in south africa emerged, and 3 months ago some kiddie hackers decided to fdisk a bunch of servers. Under our laws nothing could be done to them, but 3 months later they break into Telkom, they do no damage, just browse around the system, telkom has them arrested etc. Under our legal system however, their computers were seized, but no one was actually allowed to view the contents of the harddrives etc on the machines. Including the fact that even if they were allowed to look on those harddrives, the data on those harddrives was encrypted according to the 2 hackers. So to sum up the situation in this country: Our backbone infrastructure of our internet (the telephone lines and digital lines etc) are being monopolised by one company that is state controlled (Telkom) The hacking scene is rising into the picture fast, and no one is ready to deal with it yet in the industry The laws of this country protect no one from anything on the internet Suddenly though there is a fight to create new laws in this country. The law currently says the following A.) You cannot be prosecuted for damaging or erasing data on a machine that is not yours, due to the fact that all property that falls under the laws which refer to damaged property, has to be corporeal, computer data is not considered as such. B.) You cannot be prosecuted for breaking and entering if you penetrate a computer as breaking and entering under the current law has to refer to a physical structure that you break into. C.) You cannot be prosecuted for violations of copyright if you pirate international software, and 99% of software in south africa is imported from outside, this is due to the copyright act of 1978 stating the following: A Computer program is defined as "a set of instructions fixed or stored in any manner and which, when used directly or indirectly in a computer, directs its operation to bring about a result" A computer program will be subject to copyright if it is original and if the author is a South African citizen or domiciled or resident in the Republic, or if it is first published or mad in the Republic. Copyright initially vests in the author of a work but it may be transferred to third parties. With the above as our current law, there is a move to change various parts of what is currently law. Everything they are changing it to seems to be based on the computer laws in the UK, and certain things from singapore. They are also looking to form legislation that may or may not allow for attempted decryption of logs on a harddrive, and the entry of decrypted logs into evidence, the restriction of encryption in this country, the allowance for semi-tangible evidence etc etc etc. My question is, does anyone know where I can find information regarding the UK laws as regards cyber crime, how the courts handle electronic logs, how the courts handle encryption in the UK, and if anyone has any comments on the above I would love to hear them. Cheers Andrew Alston (System Administrator) From bab282 at psu.edu Thu Nov 19 19:41:10 1998 From: bab282 at psu.edu (Blake Buzzini) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:41:10 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture In-Reply-To: <199811200034.SAA07327@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <002201be1434$5ce50380$88e3ba92@ruby-river> I could be wrong, but I thought Goldbach's conjecture was that every even number could be expressed as the sum of *two* primes. This doesn't prohibit repetition. Therefore, under Goldbach's conjecture: 4 -> 2 + 2 6 -> 3 + 3 but NOT 2 + 2 + 2 8 -> 5 + 3 but NOT 2 + 2 + 2 etc... But I am a lowly freshman, so what do I know... Blake Buzzini, PSU -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com] On Behalf Of Jim Choate Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:34 PM To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture If we go with the flow and exclude 1 (so we don't have to rewrite all our theorems) and assume that all even numbers greater than 2 can be represented as a sum of two prime factors we have a problem... How does one sum 4? 2 + 2? We certainly can't use 3 + 1. If we allow repetition *and* the number 2 as a prime then all even numbers can be written as a string of 2's summed appropriately. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 19:56:28 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:56:28 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Message-ID: <199811200339.VAA08272@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Blake Buzzini" > Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:17:54 -0500 > I could be wrong, but I thought Goldbach's conjecture was that every even > number could be expressed as the sum of *two* primes. This doesn't prohibit No, that was Fermat, Goldbach just says every even number greater than two can be represented as a sum of primes. Basicaly Fermat says that if we have n primes we can reduce them to 2 primes only, in all cases. Which happens to exclude using equilateral triangles as a test bed since you can't tile a equilateral with only two other equilaterals, you could use rectangles though. So basicaly from a geometric perspective Fermat says that given a rectangle of even area it is possible to divide it with a bisector into two rectangles of prime area. It's interesting that Fermat doesn't mention that the only prime that can use two as a factor is 4. And you can't factor 2 at all since we eliminate 1 as a potential candidate (another issue of symmetry breaking simply so we don't have to write '....works for every prime but 1' on all our theorems). > repetition. Therefore, under Goldbach's conjecture: > > 4 -> 2 + 2 > 6 -> 3 + 3 but NOT 2 + 2 + 2 > 8 -> 5 + 3 but NOT 2 + 2 + 2 The real issue for me is the interaction of primes (ie n * 1 = n) and the identity theorem (ie n * 1 = n). They're opposite sides of the same coin. It doesn't really matter now since it doesn't look like I'm going to get a copy of EURISKO in this lifetime to play with. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 19 20:03:52 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:03:52 +0800 Subject: Catastrophic Terrorism Message-ID: <199811200342.WAA23775@smtp3.atl.mindspring.net> Ex-CIA head John Deutch and two NatSecs write in November Foreign Affairs on "Catastrophic Terrorism: Tackling the New Danger:" http://jya.com/ct-tnd.htm (36K) They propose three new orgs to prevent and respond to terrorist use of WMD on a large scale: 1. National Terrorism Intelligence Center (Mil/Intel/LEA) 2. National Information Assurance Institute (Gov/Corp/Tank) 3. Catastrophic Terrorism Response Offices (Intel/Plan/Train/Task/Direct) Paralleling Senator Kyl and others, the proposals are based on the increased domestic use of the military while proclaiming civil liberties will be protected. And though there is considerable detail about how the military, intelligence agencies and law enforcement will work together - US and foreign - and the vast purchases of sevices and equipment that will be needed, there's next to nothing about how civil liberties will be protected. Reference is made to America's marshalling its patriotism and technology to win the Cold War, and the wondrous inventions developed to do that. Again, though, no mention is made of the price of military industrialism, which is to be expected of our finest catastrophe-obessessed minds unable to imagine a world without endless national security threats to grow their pork. From schear at lvcm.com Thu Nov 19 20:14:37 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:14:37 +0800 Subject: Piracy and cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <36543A3F.37AC99B@acm.org> Message-ID: I tried to take a crack at it in Laissez Faire City Times http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.16/pageone.html Tim May wrote: >At 7:33 AM -0800 11/19/98, Jim Gillogly wrote: >-- all issues of intellectual property are also issues of _enforceability_. >To the extent anonymous remailers, information markets, regulatory >arbitrage, systems like "BlackNet" ("BlackeBay," anyone?), and other crypto >anarchy technologies proliferate, enforcement of any particular nation's >intellectual property laws will become problematic. > > >-- finally, the U.S. position on patentability and copyrightability of >software and words is not the only position one may find morally >supportable. We do not, for example, allow "ideas" to be patented or >copyrighted (I don't mean "expressions of ideas," as in patents, or >"precise words," as in copyrights. Rather, I mean that we do not allow a >person to "own" an idea. To imagine the alternative, cf. Galambos.) > > >Long term, I expect current notions about intellectual property will have >to change. > >I'm a big believer in "technological determinism." For example, in my own >view (which I have debated with some well known cyberspace lawyers over the >years), the widespread deployment of video cassette recorders (VCRs) >necessarily changed the intellectual property laws. The Supreme Court, in >Disney v. Sony, uttered a bunch of stuff about time-shifting, blah blah, >but the real reason, I think, boiled down to this: > >"VCRs have become widespread. If people tape shows in their own homes, even >violating copyrighted material, there is no way law enforcement can stop >them short of instituting a police state and doing random spot checks. The >horse is out of the barn, the genie is out of the bottle. The law has to >change. But rather than admit that copyright is no longer practically >enforceable, we have to couch our decision in terms of "time-shifting" and >other such fig leaves." > >So, too, will anonymous remailers, black pipes, information markets, >regulatory arbitrage, and suchlike change the nature of intellectual >property. > >What form these changes will take, I don't know. > >--Tim May From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Thu Nov 19 20:19:23 1998 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:19:23 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199811190754.IAA15057@replay.com> Message-ID: Hey, asshole, keep my name outta this. On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Anonymous wrote: > ##### # ###### > # # # # > # # # ##### > # # # # > # # # # > ##### # ###### > > ##### > # # # #### ##### #### # # # #### ###### ##### > ## ## # # # # # # # # # # # # # > # ## # # # # # # # ##### # # ##### # > # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # > # # # #### # # #### ##### #### # # > > ##### # ###### > # # # # > # # # ##### > # # # # > # # # # > ##### # ###### > > > FUCK micro$oft. Kill them all. Nuke Redmond. > Sodomize bILL gATES. > Cut his micro$oft prick and shove it up > his own ass. > Rabid motherfucking whoremongerz at redmond. > > From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Thu Nov 19 20:24:49 1998 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:24:49 +0800 Subject: manners In-Reply-To: <802566C1.00536A3E.00@seunt002e.ssa.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 Richard.Bragg at ssa.co.uk wrote: > There are ways and means. If someone requests software that is NOT free > then a simple NO will surfice. A list of contacts to purchase would aid > income for the producer. > An additional approach would be to suggest alternatives that are free. > > There is never any call to be rude. > Way to go, Dick! From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Thu Nov 19 21:06:25 1998 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:06:25 +0800 Subject: Piracy and cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The best defence for the programmer is to make the software so buggy, complex, and poorly documented that enough revenue is obtained through support contracts and fees, supplemental documentation, training courses, and the like to cover the potential losses to piracy. NT comes to mind. ;) On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Steve Schear wrote: > I tried to take a crack at it in Laissez Faire City Times > http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.16/pageone.html > > Tim May wrote: > >At 7:33 AM -0800 11/19/98, Jim Gillogly wrote: > >-- all issues of intellectual property are also issues of _enforceability_. > >To the extent anonymous remailers, information markets, regulatory > >arbitrage, systems like "BlackNet" ("BlackeBay," anyone?), and other crypto > >anarchy technologies proliferate, enforcement of any particular nation's > >intellectual property laws will become problematic. > > > > > >-- finally, the U.S. position on patentability and copyrightability of > >software and words is not the only position one may find morally > >supportable. We do not, for example, allow "ideas" to be patented or > >copyrighted (I don't mean "expressions of ideas," as in patents, or > >"precise words," as in copyrights. Rather, I mean that we do not allow a > >person to "own" an idea. To imagine the alternative, cf. Galambos.) > > > > > >Long term, I expect current notions about intellectual property will have > >to change. > > > >I'm a big believer in "technological determinism." For example, in my own > >view (which I have debated with some well known cyberspace lawyers over the > >years), the widespread deployment of video cassette recorders (VCRs) > >necessarily changed the intellectual property laws. The Supreme Court, in > >Disney v. Sony, uttered a bunch of stuff about time-shifting, blah blah, > >but the real reason, I think, boiled down to this: > > > >"VCRs have become widespread. If people tape shows in their own homes, even > >violating copyrighted material, there is no way law enforcement can stop > >them short of instituting a police state and doing random spot checks. The > >horse is out of the barn, the genie is out of the bottle. The law has to > >change. But rather than admit that copyright is no longer practically > >enforceable, we have to couch our decision in terms of "time-shifting" and > >other such fig leaves." > > > >So, too, will anonymous remailers, black pipes, information markets, > >regulatory arbitrage, and suchlike change the nature of intellectual > >property. > > > >What form these changes will take, I don't know. > > > >--Tim May > > > > From bab282 at psu.edu Thu Nov 19 21:06:44 1998 From: bab282 at psu.edu (Blake Buzzini) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:06:44 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811200339.VAA08272@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <002301be143f$6f8624f0$88e3ba92@ruby-river> >From _Elementary Theory of Numbers_ by William J. LeVeque, pg. 6: "It was conjectured by Charles Goldbach in 1742 that every even integer larger than 4 is the sum of two odd primes. (All primes except 2 are odd, of course, since evenness means divisibility by two.)" >From _Excursions in Number Theory_ by C. Stanley Ogilvy and John T. Anderson, pg. 82: "Goldbach's conjecture. Is every even number expressible as the sum of two primes?" >From _Goldbach's Conjecture_ by Eric W. Weisstein (http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/math/GoldbachConjecture.html): "Goldbach's original conjecture, written in a 1742 letter to Euler, states that every Integer >5 is the Sum of three Primes. As re-expressed by Euler, an equivalent of this Conjecture (called the ``strong'' Goldbach conjecture) asserts that all Positive Even Integers >= 4 can be expressed as the Sum of two Primes." Am I misreading somewhere? Blake Buzzini, PSU -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM] On Behalf Of Jim Choate Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:39 PM To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Forwarded message: > From: "Blake Buzzini" > Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:17:54 -0500 > I could be wrong, but I thought Goldbach's conjecture was that every even > number could be expressed as the sum of *two* primes. This doesn't prohibit No, that was Fermat, Goldbach just says every even number greater than two can be represented as a sum of primes. Basicaly Fermat says that if we have n primes we can reduce them to 2 primes only, in all cases. Which happens to exclude using equilateral triangles as a test bed since you can't tile a equilateral with only two other equilaterals, you could use rectangles though. So basicaly from a geometric perspective Fermat says that given a rectangle of even area it is possible to divide it with a bisector into two rectangles of prime area. It's interesting that Fermat doesn't mention that the only prime that can use two as a factor is 4. And you can't factor 2 at all since we eliminate 1 as a potential candidate (another issue of symmetry breaking simply so we don't have to write '....works for every prime but 1' on all our theorems). > repetition. Therefore, under Goldbach's conjecture: > > 4 -> 2 + 2 > 6 -> 3 + 3 but NOT 2 + 2 + 2 > 8 -> 5 + 3 but NOT 2 + 2 + 2 The real issue for me is the interaction of primes (ie n * 1 = n) and the identity theorem (ie n * 1 = n). They're opposite sides of the same coin. It doesn't really matter now since it doesn't look like I'm going to get a copy of EURISKO in this lifetime to play with. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 21:38:03 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:38:03 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Message-ID: <199811200520.XAA08942@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Blake Buzzini" > Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:37:09 -0500 > >From _Elementary Theory of Numbers_ by William J. LeVeque, pg. 6: > > "It was conjectured by Charles Goldbach in 1742 that every even integer > larger than 4 is the sum of two odd primes. (All primes except 2 are odd, > of course, since evenness means divisibility by two.)" Ok, so this one says it was Goldbach himself and in particular states two odd primes completely eliminating 4 from the get go ... > >From _Excursions in Number Theory_ by C. Stanley Ogilvy and John T. > Anderson, pg. 82: > > "Goldbach's conjecture. Is every even number expressible as the sum of two > primes?" This one is the second version... > >From _Goldbach's Conjecture_ by Eric W. Weisstein > (http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/math/GoldbachConjecture.html): > > "Goldbach's original conjecture, written in a 1742 letter to Euler, states > that every Integer >5 is the Sum of three Primes. As re-expressed by Euler, > an equivalent of this Conjecture (called the ``strong'' Goldbach conjecture) > asserts that all Positive Even Integers >= 4 can be expressed as the Sum of > two Primes." And finaly a third completely different slant. They at least get Fermats contribution right. > Am I misreading somewhere? Well I'd say that all three of your references tended to contradict each other. Which one do you want to stand on? This is my quote: > No, that was Fermat, Goldbach just says every even number greater than two > can be represented as a sum of primes. Basicaly Fermat says that if we have > n primes we can reduce them to 2 primes only, in all cases. Which happens to > exclude using equilateral triangles as a test bed since you can't tile a > equilateral with only two other equilaterals, you could use rectangles > though. So basicaly from a geometric perspective Fermat says that given a > rectangle of even area it is possible to divide it with a bisector into two > rectangles of prime area. > > It's interesting that Fermat doesn't mention that the only prime that can > use two as a factor is 4. And you can't factor 2 at all since we eliminate > 1 as a potential candidate (another issue of symmetry breaking simply so we > don't have to write '....works for every prime but 1' on all our theorems). I'll stand by this statement. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 22:15:37 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:15:37 +0800 Subject: COPA/CDA II blocked until 12/4/98 [/.] Message-ID: <199811200557.XAA09091@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19981119S0021 > [IMAGE] TechWeb - The Technology News Site [INLINE] > Technology News - [INLINE] [INLINE] . [INLINE] Judge Blocks CDA II > (11/19/98, 8:34 p.m. ET) > By John Gartner, TechWeb > > A federal judge on Thursday issued a temporary restraining order > preventing the Justice Department from enforcing the Child Online > Protection Act (COPA), an anti-pornography law Congress passed in > October. > > Judge Lowell Reed's decision will delay enforcement of the law until > at least Dec. 4. The injunction came in response to a lawsuit filed by > free speech advocates, filed just one day after the legislation was > signed by President Clinton. [text deleted] ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From npusa at newpostoffice.com Fri Nov 20 14:17:51 1998 From: npusa at newpostoffice.com (npusa at newpostoffice.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:17:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: An Invitation To Our "Netparty" For Young Professionals Message-ID: <36120.220947222223900.191338@localhost> ************************************************************** Do You Wish To Continue Receiving Invitations To Our Events? Please let us know by sending an e-mail to npevents at newpostoffice.com or by calling us at 212.969.0293. ************************************************************** Networking parties are "a genuinely original idea" -- Crain's New York Business "In New York, it is possible to bring together hundreds of people and their business cards for a networking evening. And if sometimes the evening also leads to romance, that is a fringe benefit." -- The New York Times Netparty ********* After-Work Networking Events For Young Professionals ******************************* Wednesday, November 25, 6 p.m. - 11 p.m. at Webster Hall (Thanksgiving Eve -- The Year's Biggest Event!) (125 E. 11th St., btwn 3rd and 4th Aves., NYC) Friday, December 4, 6 p.m. - 11 p.m. at The Roxy (1000+ Expected at One of NYC's Largest Nightclubs) (515 W. 18th St. at 10th Ave., NYC) *************************************************** Hi. We are sending you this message to invite you (and, if you would like, a few interesting friends) to one of the after-work business/social events we sponsor. Our Netparty has become New York's best-attended event for young professionals. Over 1,000 people attended our most recent Netparty and over 1,500 are expected for this week's Thanksgiving Eve Event. WHAT IS A NETPARTY? A Netparty is a "networking party" -- an opportunity for young professionals to network with each other on a business level (we encourage you to exchange business cards) and to interact with each other on a social level. Crain's New York Business has called networking parties "a genuinely original idea." Netparty events are held at Manhattan's hottest nightclubs -- but the music is never so loud that you cannot talk and the crowd is comprised entirely of young (20's, 30's, 40's) professionals. We're inviting doctors, teachers and entrepreneurs, attorneys, advertising executives, actresses, sales professionals, writers, investment bankers and many other professionals to our upcoming event. You may feel free to forward this e-mail to others who you think may be interested as well. THE NEXT NETPARTIES: Wednesday, November 25 at Webster Hall Friday, December 4 at The Roxy Friday, December 11 (Location To Be Announced) Friday, December 18 at Creation Our next Netparty will take place this Wednesday, November 25. For this event, we will be returning to the Grand Ballroom of Webster Hall (125 E. 11th St., between 3rd and 4th Aves.) for what we believe will be our biggest event of the year -- our Thanksgiving Eve Event. Over 1500 people are expected to attend. In addition to networking opportunities, this event will feature a coffee bar, DJ and dancing. Doors open at 6 p.m. and you must arrive by 10 p.m to be guaranteed admission. Please note that you are welcome to enjoy Webster Hall even after our Netparty ends -- in fact Webster Hall will be holding a party for Jerry Springer's new movie "Ringmaster" right after our Netparty. Coming in December -- more great network events at New York's best nightspots. Please mark your calendars so that you might join us at The Roxy on Friday, December 4 and at our debut at a new nightspot -- "Creation" -- on Friday, December 18. We will also hold an event on Friday, December 11; however the location for that event has not yet been finalized. ADMISSION, DRESS CODE, AGES Admission to our events is only $8 at the door. It is not necessary to make a reservation, just show up! Please note that for the Wednesday, November 25 Thanksgiving Eve Event at Webster Hall, you must arrive by 10 p.m to be guaranteed admission. No jeans or sneakers are permitted at our events and business attire or "Friday casual" attire is requested. You must be 21 to attend. The event is designed for those in their 20's, 30's and 40's; the majority of attendees are in their 20's and 30's. QUESTIONS? We are always available to answer any questions you might have. If you would like to e-mail us, simply write to npevents at newpostoffice.com. If you should experience any problems in communicating with us by e-mail, or, if a quicker response to your question is required, please telephone us at (212) 969-0293. We hope to see you this Wednesday, November 25 at Webster Hall and at our December Netparties. -- Jeff @ Netparty Netparty Events, PO Box 2518, New York, NY 10021 (212) 969-0293 From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 19 22:35:14 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:35:14 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811200611.HAA24436@replay.com> Rabid Wombat crapped: > >Hey, asshole, keep my name outta this. > Nigga-lovin' asswipe, get yerself off this list. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Nov 19 23:33:00 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:33:00 +0800 Subject: More Goldbach's Conjecture Message-ID: <199811200702.BAA09369@einstein.ssz.com> Well there are two more definitions, from the same book [1], that are not equivalent: pp. 335 For all natural numbers x, if x is even, non-zero, and not 2, then there exist prime numbers y and z such that x is the sum of y and z. pp. 673 ...every even number, n>6 (it at least takes care of my question about 4), is the sum of two odd primes. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] VNR Concise Encyclopedia of Mathematics From nobody at replay.com Fri Nov 20 01:08:38 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:08:38 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811200841.JAA04096@replay.com> Moahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah u STOOPID dickheads and fuckwads supporting CUNTS like micro$oft or even working there. FUCK YOU lousy cockroaches. I, the great tormentor and terminator will stamp you out and exterminate you like the pests you are. HaHaHaHaHaHa mothafuckaz. You will all die and give way to a better world, better people and better systems. Long live Unix, Mac, Amiga and TERROR. From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de Fri Nov 20 02:54:26 1998 From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:54:26 +0800 Subject: More Goldbach's Conjecture In-Reply-To: <199811200702.BAA09369@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <36553180.613A5017@stud.uni-muenchen.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > Well there are two more definitions, from the same book [1], that are not > equivalent: > > pp. 335 > > For all natural numbers x, if x is even, non-zero, and not 2, then there > exist prime numbers y and z such that x is the sum of y and z. > > pp. 673 > > ...every even number, n>6 (it at least takes care of my question about 4), > is the sum of two odd primes. > [1] VNR Concise Encyclopedia of Mathematics Evidently there is a printing error. 'n>6' should read 'n>=6'. Then they are equivalent (if one considers 4 = 2 + 2 to be known). M. K. Shen From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl Fri Nov 20 03:55:51 1998 From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:55:51 +0800 Subject: New postage stamp Message-ID: <99c4e400f183f816a06750cf9b8dc791@anonymous> I hear they are coming out with a new "Monica Lewinsky" postage stamp. Initially, it will cost $.35. However, if you lick it, it will be considerably more expensive. From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 20 04:28:55 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:28:55 +0800 Subject: CJ's Teeth/Glasses In-Reply-To: <9F00F15E736BD11196B700A0C98448FE0A9880@WR-SEA-SERVER-2> Message-ID: <199811201206.HAA30839@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> Jeff, Alia has written that you sent CJ's teeth to him at the AZ Correctional Corporation of America but he never got them (nor stuff she sent). Guess that's an indication of the superior quality of gov-regged private-run jails -- or mails. Thanks for the reminder that CJ inquiries got to go through gov-regged private-run attorneys who are ever in conference and don't return calls. John At 10:36 AM 11/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >John, > >I have responded directly to Alia on this matter. It is *normal* for us >to deal with the defense attorney on these types of situations, but not >necessarily a requirement. I would need something from either CJ or his >attorney authorizing me to discuss the situation with you. > >Jeff From bullwinkle at 3253137429 Fri Nov 20 20:51:41 1998 From: bullwinkle at 3253137429 (bullwinkle at 3253137429) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:51:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ecstasy: The way to true happiness Message-ID: <199811210451.UAA11792@toad.com> Ecstasy - The Seduction Audio Cassette Tape! Can Modern Technology be used to put women into a more "receptive mood?" Can Modern Technology be used to make women "more attractive" to men? 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If you would like not to recieve any other mailings of this type please goto: http://3625362989/ From nobody at seclab.com Fri Nov 20 05:10:28 1998 From: nobody at seclab.com (DOOM Anonymous Untraceable User) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 21:10:28 +0800 Subject: Pothead Survivalists Elude Massive Search Message-ID: <199811201230.NAA06988@rogue.seclab.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:53:29 -0500 From: Anarchist News Service Reply-To: news at overthrow.com Organization: Utopian Anarchist Party MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "news at overthrow.com" Subject: Pothead Survivalists Elude Massive Search; One Dead, Two Still Eluding a Continent-wide Manhunt Pothead Survivalists Elude Massive Search One Dead, Two Still Eluding a Continent-wide Manhunt November 18, 1998 Reprinted from Revolutionary Times, November, 1998 Much thanks to our comrade and friend of anarchy, Terry Mitchell, editor of Revolutionary Times Cortez, Colorado -- Like the plot of a farfetched Hollywood movie, three potheads have proven impossible for police and the military to catch, and the cops are stumped. On May 29th, police officer Dale Claxton stopped a stolen water truck 50 miles east of Cortez, Colorado. Before he could exit his patrol car, three men, dressed in camouflage military fatigues, raked his car with rifle fire. He was struck four times and killed. The chase was on, and the three were determined not to be captured. Then men then drove to their own pickup and continued on with their water truck. It didn't take long for police backups to discover officer Claxton's body and put out an All Points Bulletin. A short while later, another lone policeman stopped the water truck, lights flashing. As he sat behind the large tanker, a pickup pulled up behind him and stopped. One camo clad man, wearing a combat helmet, rose up from the pickup bed, pointed his rifle over the top, and began firing. At the same time, the drive reemerged from the pickup, blasting away at the cop. The officer was struck in the back, covered by his bulletproof vest, and his leg. Then, seeing he was down and dazed, they abandoned the tanker and sped off again. Police set up roadblocks on all the key roads, expecting to be able to use "stop sticks" and their cars to apprehend the shooters. But, the savvy survivalists raced up, guns blazing, and literally shot their way through a state-of-the-art roadblock. Afterwards, police picked up close to 5000 spent casings. The skill and boldness of the three left Colorado police stunned and frightened. They had no idea who the three were and, had it not been for a bitter ex-girlfriend who snitched them out, they never would have. She identified the men as Alan "Monty" Pilon, 30, Jason McVean, 26, and Robert Mason, 26. Police quickly raided the mobile homes of the three, ripping them to shreds. At one home they found a pickup truck loaded with food, ammunition and other gear; as though they had been planning to leave for the countryside as soon as they had secured the water truck. At another of the three's home, police found a small amount of weed, a pipe, and a pack of papers. Also found was a map indicating the locations of 17 cache sites in the desert mountain region. As with any situation where the powers of the state were challenged, the government responded with overwhelming force; an army of 200 National Guard and active duty military, plus 300 state, local and federal police. An enormous manhunt began for the trio in western Colorado and eastern Utah. Helicopters using latest-generation night vision equipment scoured the cliffs and valleys in vain. Special listening, motion and heat sensing equipment was brought in, but detected no movement or sound that could lead them to the three. Police found the pickup abandoned with tracks leading into the brush. But this presented another problem; FBI and Colorado SWAT teams going through the tamarisk complained "they can stand ten feet apart and not see each other." A geyser of propaganda erupted, claiming the three were suspects in the robbing of a gambling casino a year before and that they were members of the Four Corners Militia. These lines were repeated over and over in print and on television. But there were obvious holes in the stories. First, there is no Four Corners Militia. The entire militia connection was a fabrication designed to smear all paramilitary groups with a broad brush. Second, if the men were suspects, why had they never been picked up or even questioned about the robberies? On July 5th, a Colorado social worker driving along a desert highway spotted a pair of combat boots beside the road. Having heard all the intense "gotta hate 'em" propaganda, he quickly dialed the police on his cell phone. But this was not going to be just another easy snitch. As he sat looking at the surrounding area, he caught the reflection of sunlight off the telescopic sight of a rifle. Just then the dirt began to kick up around him with bullet strikes, and he sped away to clean up his pants. Sheriff's Deputy Kelley Bradford raced to the scene, only to be met with a hail of gunfire that left him shot twice and lucky to be alive. That brought the total to one policeman killed, four wounded, and six police cars riddled by bullets. The cops were freaking out. Then came a strange twist to the tale. Robert Mason was found dead, a victim of what police claim was a suicide. His body was found in a bunker-like structure just back from the highway were his boots were set. He was wearing body armor and had several pipe bombs near him. Oddly enough, he was shot between the eyes, a place rarely chosen for suicide. He may have actually been executed on the spot by the police, or shot by his accomplices. Cooperation between local police agencies and Navajo Nation police was sabotaged by racism from the white officers. Navajo police complained that their reports of sightings of the men were ignored. Local police responded by saying the Navajos "were difficult to work with." SWAT teams ran here and there chasing reports that came in through their sources. Searchers found the 17 cache sites marked on a map discovered at one of the residences, but they had already been cleaned out. The map had actually been turned over to the US Army Topographical Intelligence Division where sites were matched to military maps, which were then given to the police. The mighty Colorado River was effectively closed off to bat traffic, with rafters pulled to the shore by police and questioned. A ban on boating was put into place for a time, but was called off after it began to impact local economies. At the present time, the search has been scaled back significantly. Blackhawk helicopters make routine patrols over the Colorado/Utah borders looking for the two surviving masked me. Rumors are flying in Colorado, with the latest being that the two are being hidden by local supporters. ----- Editor's (Terry Mitchell's) commentary: While I do not support the theft of other people's vehicles, I have a high respect for the determination of the three to not be stopped. Had they pooled their money, all were gainfully employed, and bought a water truck instead of stealing one, the entire incident would not have happened. From the looks of things, the theft was part of their plan to immediately pull back from the cities and into the desert. Do they know something we don't? Their struggles have revealed something important to all oppressed victims of the War on Drugs -- the emperor truly wears no clothes. We have all heard about how high-tech devices used by the police and military can "count the kernels on an ear of corn from outer space" and how their is no longer any place to hide. Well, this is bullshit. Those pot smoking gunmen have proven that people can fight the government , win, and disappear indefinitely. Big Brother isn't as tough as he would have you believe. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." ----- Terry Mitchell is editor of Revolutionary Times and head of the Green Panthers, a radical marijuana legalization organization. The Green Panthers can be reached at http://www.greenpanthers.org , at panthers at eos.net . or at Panthers Press, PO Box 31231, Cincinnati, OH 45231, 513-522-6264, Fax:513-522-6234 . The Green Panthers provide free referrals to defense lawyers who specialize in marijuana defense in all 50 states, among other activities. Revolutionary Times is printed by Panthers Press and can be reached at the above address. A one-year subscription costs $20. Other contributors to Revolutionary Times includes Thomas Chittum, author of Civil War II: The Coming Breakup of America , soon to be available in the UAP Book's "Leaders of the Far Right" section at http://www.overthrow.com , and available now from UAP Book and is Amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0929408179/utopiananarchist . ----- For more anarchist news and information, contact: Utopian Anarchist Party Post Office Box 12244 Silver Spring, MD 20908 uap at overthrow.com http://www.overthrow.com From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 20 05:27:23 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 21:27:23 +0800 Subject: More Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Message-ID: <199811201307.HAA09998@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:08:16 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen > Subject: Re: More Goldbach's Conjecture > Evidently there is a printing error. 'n>6' should read 'n>=6'. Then > they are equivalent (if one considers 4 = 2 + 2 to be known). Or they don't like: 2 + 2 or, 3 + 3 Take your pick, either are equaly likely. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 20 06:00:25 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:00:25 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - the various definitions Message-ID: <199811201329.HAA10119@einstein.ssz.com> Now before somebody gets a bee in their bonnet.... Yes, the VNR has a typo in respect to the '6', it should be >2. As to the various other definitions that folks have been submitting. I'm not real sure what their exact point is since it's agreed by all that it's: ...all even numbers greater than 2..., and Goldbach believed it had to be three prime factors while Fermat pointed out it could always be 2. As to the two defintions that accredit the reduction from 3 to 2 to Goldbach while leaving Fermat out of the picture fail to explain why Fermat's point is called Fermat's in the first place. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Fri Nov 20 06:58:35 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:58:35 +0800 Subject: manners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811201423.GAA28061@smtp.well.com> At 10:48 AM 11-19-98 -0800, Tim May wrote: >Nonsense. I am not "implicated" as an accessory to anything. Speak for >yourself only. > >There is no basis in law for the notion that several hundred subscribers to >a mailing list are implicated in something because others talk about it. >Get real. One might as well claim that all the millions of subscribers to the LA Times are "implicated" as accessories to an act that was described in the paper's pages. -Declan From declan at well.com Fri Nov 20 07:16:35 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:16:35 +0800 Subject: Fwd: FC: For Judge Reed, nixing CDA II was a difficult decision Message-ID: <199811201436.GAA00614@smtp.well.com> >X-Sender: declan at mail.well.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 >Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:12:22 -0500 >To: politech at vorlon.mit.edu >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: FC: For Judge Reed, nixing CDA II was a difficult decision >Sender: owner-politech at vorlon.mit.edu >Reply-To: declan at well.com >X-Loop: politech at vorlon.mit.edu >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ > > > >http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16387.html > > by Declan McCullagh > 3:00 a.m. 20.Nov.98.PST > > US District Judge Lowell A. Reed Jr. is a > reluctant free speech advocate. > > It took him all day Thursday to accept > that the CDA II, scheduled to take effect > on Friday, would have let federal > prosecutors punish any American who > operates Web sites with material deemed > "harmful to minors." > > By the time he finally decided to bar the > Justice Department from enforcing the > law, he painstakingly outlined how > difficult his decision was. "The court has > and will give careful analytical deference > to" an act of Congress, he said. > > Reed's reluctance is easy enough to > understand. In language sure to give > even the most steely-nerved judge the > jitters, the US Supreme Court has called > any court's decision to strike down an act > of Congress "the gravest and most > delicate duty that [it can be] called upon > to perform." > > [...] > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology >To subscribe: send a message to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu with this text: >subscribe politech >More information is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From mhahn at tcbtech.com Fri Nov 20 07:21:23 1998 From: mhahn at tcbtech.com (Mark Hahn) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:21:23 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811200339.VAA08272@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981120094101.00946d40@mail.aosi.com> At 09:39 PM 11/19/98 -0600, Jim Choate instructed: >It's interesting that Fermat doesn't mention that the only prime that can >use two as a factor is 4. And you can't factor 2 at all since we eliminate >1 as a potential candidate (another issue of symmetry breaking simply so we >don't have to write '....works for every prime but 1' on all our theorems). I thought I was following along until I got here, and got very lost. First question: I think the first sentence implies 4 is prime, so I must have the emphasis wrong. Unless you are saying that you cannot factor 4 as 2*2 because < of something I missed >. So the only factorization of 4 is 4*1, hence four is prime. The other explanation is "Whoosh" the whole conversation when over my head and I'm lost. -MpH -------- Mark P. Hahn Work: 212-278-5861 mhahn at tcbtech.com Home: 609-275-1834 TCB Technologies, Inc Consultant to: The SoGen Funds 1221 Avenue of the Americas, NY NY From foreigncur at usa.net Fri Nov 20 23:40:18 1998 From: foreigncur at usa.net (foreigncur at usa.net) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:40:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ad: Unlimited Flat Rate Long Distance Calling? 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CALL (800)600-0343, ext, 2197 NOW! ----------------------------------------------------- To be removed from this and other mailings send an email to Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 20 08:01:10 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:01:10 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Message-ID: <199811201515.JAA10514@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:41:01 -0600 > From: Mark Hahn > Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) > At 09:39 PM 11/19/98 -0600, Jim Choate instructed: > >It's interesting that Fermat doesn't mention that the only prime that can > >use two as a factor is 4. And you can't factor 2 at all since we eliminate > >1 as a potential candidate (another issue of symmetry breaking simply so we > >don't have to write '....works for every prime but 1' on all our theorems). > > I thought I was following along until I got here, and got very lost. First > question: I think the first sentence implies 4 is prime, so I must have > the emphasis wrong. No, I made a typo. I got so focused on primes last nite that I seem to have typed it in instead of 'even'. I didn't notice it when I saw it posted to the list. My mistake, sorry for the confusion. What started this whole enquiry for me was the realization that the multiplication identity axiom is related to the definition of a prime. Then add on top of that the reason we exclude 1 is so we don't have to write '...except for the prime 1' on the end of lots of number theory (re Richard Feynman's comment during the Challenger Investigation). It was the realization that if we go ahead and include 1 so the axioms are in line with each other (and use our cut&paste feature for the '...1...') then perhaps it would provide a more consistent base and just maybe some of the extant problems in number theory might become solvable in other ways. My original intention was to get a copy of Doug Lenat's EURISKO theorem proving program and change the definition of prime in its database and note the results (after converting it to Perl from LISP). What started all that is that I'm slowly going through 'An Introduction to Algebraic Structures' by J. Landin (Dover) creating a cheat-sheet of number theory that eventualy I hope to post on my webpage for reference. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From protozoa at tux.org Fri Nov 20 08:29:04 1998 From: protozoa at tux.org (K. M. Ellis) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:29:04 +0800 Subject: ANNOUNCE: DC Cypherpunks Meeting Sat, Nov 21st Message-ID: Crack open your palm pilots and take note! And please repost widely. Our mailing list (dccp at eff.org), along with the rest of eff.org, is sadly out of commission. DC Cypherpunks will hold a meeting at the Electronic Privacy Information Center office in Washington, DC. DATE: Soon! Saturday, November 21, 1998 TIME: 5pm Featured speaker: Richard Schroeppel, University of Arizona rcs at cs.arizona.edu The Hasty Pudding Cipher "NIST is organizing the search for a new block cipher, the Advanced Encryption Standard. The Hasty Pudding Cipher is my entry in the AES competition. The design goals for HPC are medium security, speed, and flexibility. Hasty Pudding works with any block length and any key size. It is optimized for 64-bit architectures, operating at 200 MHz on large data blocks. Hasty Pudding introduces a new feature, Spice, which allows useful non-expanding encryption of small blocks, even single bits. The cipher includes some unusual design principles." Location: Electronic Privacy Information Center 666 Pennsylvania Ave. SE, at the corner of Pennsylvania and 7th in South East DC Across the street from Eastern Market Metro station (Orange & Blue Line) To get into the building, go around to the 7th street side next to the flower shop and use the call box to call the EPIC office. We'll buzz you in. True to DCCP form, we'll probably hit a local resturaunt afterwards for dinner. If you need more explicit directions, please contact Kathleen Ellis at (202)298-0833 or ellis at epic.org. Kathleen Ellis Admin. Dir., Electronic Privacy Information Center Voice Mail: (202)298-0833 http://www.epic.org Keep up with the latest encryption news and events: http://www.crypto.org PGP 5.0 Key ID 9bf725b4 65FF B997 62B8 C396 A527 2D6A 4901 F701 9BF7 25B4 From drg at pgh.org Fri Nov 20 08:45:39 1998 From: drg at pgh.org (Dr.G) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:45:39 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: <199811192052.OAA08530@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:51:58 -0600 (CST) > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" > To: Steve Schear > Cc: apf2 at apf2.com, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, drg at pgh.org > Subject: Re: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges > > I would certainly appreciate pot yeast. > I would certainly appreciate some pot. > Yeast generally is a very tasty thing, and pot yeast will be truly yummy. > > You could cook pot bread, pancakes, etc. > > igor > You use pot for medicine too, and the local supply in nil. I may have to drive to the big Apple. > Steve Schear wrote: > > > > > > >Nobody that has been on this list very long could have been duped...We all > > >know that some group of MIB types would have swooped down on the guy, and > > >he would have been just another heart attack statistic... > > > > I raised a similar thread last year. I caused quite a bit of comment. Since > > then I've discussed the possibility of employing a common yeast or other > > organism to allow individuals to create their own home pharmacies with > > friends and acquintances in this sector. Their opinions vary but all > > assured me that desktop genetic engineering and production capabilities are > > likely no more than 10 years away and that fed measures to prevent this > > will likely be singularly ineffective. > > > > A cannabis garden is a pharmacy in an organic platform. -DrG > > > > > > - Igor. > From petro at www.playboy.com Fri Nov 20 09:00:33 1998 From: petro at www.playboy.com (Petro) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:00:33 +0800 Subject: Piracy and cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:44 PM -0500 11/19/98, Rabid Wombat wrote: >The best defence for the programmer is to make the software so buggy, >complex, and poorly documented that enough revenue is obtained through >support contracts and fees, supplemental documentation, training courses, >and the like to cover the potential losses to piracy. NT comes to mind. ;) A lot of software products seem to fit that description these days. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From petro at www.playboy.com Fri Nov 20 09:07:06 1998 From: petro at www.playboy.com (Petro) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:07:06 +0800 Subject: manners and piracy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:59 PM -0500 11/19/98, Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: >> how could someone giving you a "copy of statgraphics" not be >> considered priracy? or were you looking for a donation. if so, you >> should have been much more explicit about what you wanted. >> > Well anyway thank you for your reply. >> > What I'm trying to point out is this >> > it is OK with me if you say "Take your piracy requests elsewhere" >> > it is not OK with me if you say " ...fuck yourself" >> what we're trying to point out is this >> it is not OK with us if you send warez requests to the list. >It is the duty of all to say "Hey! respect intellectual property!" >I too am against piracy, now I know that that software i.e statgraphics >is not a shareware. Go fuck yourself. I have no responsibility to do anything YOU regard as a duty. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From asgaard at cor.sos.sll.se Fri Nov 20 09:14:29 1998 From: asgaard at cor.sos.sll.se (Asgaard) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:14:29 +0800 Subject: Anon GSM in New York? In-Reply-To: <99c4e400f183f816a06750cf9b8dc791@anonymous> Message-ID: Since I'll be visiting New York shortly I wonder if there are any GSM-net provider there issuing anonymous sim cards for cash that would fit in my Ericsson SH888? Asgaard From stuffed at stuffed.net Sat Nov 21 01:14:51 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED SAT NOV 21) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:14:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: STUFFED NOW HAS LINKS TO 100S MORE PHOTOS! Message-ID: <19981121081000.4944.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> CHECK OUT ALL THE NEW STUFF IN STUFFED! + PUSSY SEX VIDEOS + MEGA XXX MOVIES + PREMIUM PICTORIALS + PORN MIX + XXXPOSE + XXX ASIAN SLUTS + HARDCORE SEX WITH ZOOM + BLACK NYMPHOS + WACK OFF ZONE + ADUDE'S PLACE + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Fri Nov 20 09:16:05 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:16:05 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811201619.KAA17451@manifold.algebra.com> Dr.G wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:51:58 -0600 (CST) > > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" > > To: Steve Schear > > Cc: apf2 at apf2.com, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, drg at pgh.org > > Subject: Re: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges > > > > I would certainly appreciate pot yeast. > > > > I would certainly appreciate some pot. Well, I never smoked pot because I do not like the idea of smoking anything and inhaling all this tar, soot, etc. I saw my friends having real fun with pot and thought that pot bread or something like that would be great. Perhaps I sound very ignorant... ignoramus > > Yeast generally is a very tasty thing, and pot yeast will be truly yummy. > > > > You could cook pot bread, pancakes, etc. > > > > igor > > > > You use pot for medicine too, and the local supply > in nil. I may have to drive to the big Apple. > > > Steve Schear wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Nobody that has been on this list very long could have been duped...We all > > > >know that some group of MIB types would have swooped down on the guy, and > > > >he would have been just another heart attack statistic... > > > > > > I raised a similar thread last year. I caused quite a bit of comment. Since > > > then I've discussed the possibility of employing a common yeast or other > > > organism to allow individuals to create their own home pharmacies with > > > friends and acquintances in this sector. Their opinions vary but all > > > assured me that desktop genetic engineering and production capabilities are > > > likely no more than 10 years away and that fed measures to prevent this > > > will likely be singularly ineffective. > > > > > > > > A cannabis garden is a pharmacy in an organic platform. > > -DrG > > > > > > > > > > > > - Igor. > > > - Igor. From bab282 at psu.edu Fri Nov 20 10:07:29 1998 From: bab282 at psu.edu (Blake Buzzini) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:07:29 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811200520.XAA08942@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <002701be14a9$088b5490$88e3ba92@ruby-river> First, let me add yet another reference. This one is from _Number Theory in Science and Communication_ by M.R. Schroder, pg. 96: "One of the most enduring (if not endearing) conjectures is the famous Goldbach conjecture, asserting that every even number >4 is the sum of two primes." I would argue they're all essentially equivalent. Here's how they all agree: Goldbach's conjecture is that every even number is expressible as the sum of TWO primes. The variations are: (1)Goldbach's "original" conjecture versus his revised conjecture after communication with Euler and (2) excluding four while adding an odd-primes-only condition (four IS the sum of two EVEN primes, namely 2 and 2). I think these variations are simply different depths/points of view of the same idea and one who focuses on semantic differences is missing the point. Cutting to the chase, Goldbach's conjecture concerns the sum of EXACTLY TWO primes stands, and your statement "If we allow repetition *and* the number 2 as a prime then all even numbers can be written as a string of 2's summed appropriately" is thereby contradicted. Let me conclude with this inspirational quote from a man whose name escapes me: "Young men should write proofs, old men should write books." ; ) Blake Buzzini, PSU -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM] On Behalf Of Jim Choate Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 12:20 AM To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Forwarded message: > From: "Blake Buzzini" > Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:37:09 -0500 > >From _Elementary Theory of Numbers_ by William J. LeVeque, pg. 6: > > "It was conjectured by Charles Goldbach in 1742 that every even integer > larger than 4 is the sum of two odd primes. (All primes except 2 are odd, > of course, since evenness means divisibility by two.)" Ok, so this one says it was Goldbach himself and in particular states two odd primes completely eliminating 4 from the get go ... > >From _Excursions in Number Theory_ by C. Stanley Ogilvy and John T. > Anderson, pg. 82: > > "Goldbach's conjecture. Is every even number expressible as the sum of two > primes?" This one is the second version... > >From _Goldbach's Conjecture_ by Eric W. Weisstein > (http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/math/GoldbachConjecture.html): > > "Goldbach's original conjecture, written in a 1742 letter to Euler, states > that every Integer >5 is the Sum of three Primes. As re-expressed by Euler, > an equivalent of this Conjecture (called the ``strong'' Goldbach conjecture) > asserts that all Positive Even Integers >= 4 can be expressed as the Sum of > two Primes." And finaly a third completely different slant. They at least get Fermats contribution right. > Am I misreading somewhere? Well I'd say that all three of your references tended to contradict each other. Which one do you want to stand on? This is my quote: > No, that was Fermat, Goldbach just says every even number greater than two > can be represented as a sum of primes. Basicaly Fermat says that if we have > n primes we can reduce them to 2 primes only, in all cases. Which happens to > exclude using equilateral triangles as a test bed since you can't tile a > equilateral with only two other equilaterals, you could use rectangles > though. So basicaly from a geometric perspective Fermat says that given a > rectangle of even area it is possible to divide it with a bisector into two > rectangles of prime area. > > It's interesting that Fermat doesn't mention that the only prime that can > use two as a factor is 4. And you can't factor 2 at all since we eliminate > 1 as a potential candidate (another issue of symmetry breaking simply so we > don't have to write '....works for every prime but 1' on all our theorems). I'll stand by this statement. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 20 10:07:46 1998 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:07:46 +0800 Subject: packet socket forwarder Message-ID: <19981120172017.27052.qmail@nym.alias.net> Does anyone have a simple packet forwarder to run on a unix system? I want to set up a daemon on an account to just redirect traffic from a particular port to another host for some basic anonymity, but I don't have experience doing socket coding, nor a book. From coax_k at beavisandbutthead.com Fri Nov 20 10:11:56 1998 From: coax_k at beavisandbutthead.com (Judd Howie) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:11:56 +0800 Subject: NYM Message-ID: <003101be14ac$10552ae0$57eb18d2@irix2> Could anyone please suggest some reliable and online nym servers besides nym.alias.net? Preferably free. TIA. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Fri Nov 20 10:14:15 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:14:15 +0800 Subject: More Goldbach's Conjecture In-Reply-To: <199811200702.BAA09369@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811201742.LAA18097@manifold.algebra.com> Jim Choate wrote: > > > Well there are two more definitions, from the same book [1], that are not > equivalent: > > pp. 335 > > For all natural numbers x, if x is even, non-zero, and not 2, then there > exist prime numbers y and z such that x is the sum of y and z. > > pp. 673 > > ...every even number, n>6 (it at least takes care of my question about 4), > is the sum of two odd primes. These conjectures are equivalent for numbers > 6. I think that the discussion of whether numbers 4 and 6 can be expressed as sum of two primes is completely uninteresting. Also, since 6 = 3+3, I question why they put strict inequality (> 6) in the definition on p 673. I think that they could say n > 4. Not that it matters in any respect. So I do not see them as "substantially" different, and the difference between these conjectures does not lead us to any profound thoughts. - Igor. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 20 10:14:31 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:14:31 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Message-ID: <199811201733.LAA11400@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:27:39 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) > Jim Choate wrote: > > > What started this whole enquiry for me was the realization that the > > multiplication identity axiom is related to the definition of a prime. Then > > add on top of that the reason we exclude 1 is so we don't have to write > > '...except for the prime 1' on the end of lots of number theory (re Richard > > Feynman's comment during the Challenger Investigation). It was the > > realization that if we go ahead and include 1 so the axioms are in line with > > each other (and use our cut&paste feature for the '...1...') then perhaps it > > would provide a more consistent base and just maybe some of the extant > > problems in number theory might become solvable in other ways. My original > If you 'define' 1 to be 'prime', you are 'defining' Goldbach's > conjecture 'away'! Duh. I'll give you a hint, more than that single problem goes away. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de Fri Nov 20 10:31:13 1998 From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:31:13 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811201515.JAA10514@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3655A68B.CB9EE8DE@stud.uni-muenchen.de> Jim Choate wrote: > What started this whole enquiry for me was the realization that the > multiplication identity axiom is related to the definition of a prime. Then > add on top of that the reason we exclude 1 is so we don't have to write > '...except for the prime 1' on the end of lots of number theory (re Richard > Feynman's comment during the Challenger Investigation). It was the > realization that if we go ahead and include 1 so the axioms are in line with > each other (and use our cut&paste feature for the '...1...') then perhaps it > would provide a more consistent base and just maybe some of the extant > problems in number theory might become solvable in other ways. My original > intention was to get a copy of Doug Lenat's EURISKO theorem proving program > and change the definition of prime in its database and note the results > (after converting it to Perl from LISP). What started all that is that I'm > slowly going through 'An Introduction to Algebraic Structures' by J. Landin > (Dover) creating a cheat-sheet of number theory that eventualy I hope to post > on my webpage for reference. If you 'define' 1 to be 'prime', you are 'defining' Goldbach's conjecture 'away'! M. K. Shen From bab282 at psu.edu Fri Nov 20 10:33:08 1998 From: bab282 at psu.edu (Blake Buzzini) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:33:08 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811201515.JAA10514@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <002901be14ac$575bd880$88e3ba92@ruby-river> A group is only as useful as the special and similar properties items in the group share. Primes are no exception. One isn't included in the set of primes because it has special properties beyond or inconsistent with the properties of primes. As to the notion that implementing your brilliant idea "would [perhaps] provide a more consistent base and just maybe some of the extant problems in number theory might become solvable in other ways", all I can say is Puhleez... In Gauss, Fermat, Wiles, et al versus Jim Choate, I'd put my money on the former. Sorry for the rude response, I just don't like being sent hostile messages to my personal email account. Blake Buzzini, PSU -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM] On Behalf Of Jim Choate Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 10:16 AM To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:41:01 -0600 > From: Mark Hahn > Subject: RE: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) > At 09:39 PM 11/19/98 -0600, Jim Choate instructed: > >It's interesting that Fermat doesn't mention that the only prime that can > >use two as a factor is 4. And you can't factor 2 at all since we eliminate > >1 as a potential candidate (another issue of symmetry breaking simply so we > >don't have to write '....works for every prime but 1' on all our theorems). > > I thought I was following along until I got here, and got very lost. First > question: I think the first sentence implies 4 is prime, so I must have > the emphasis wrong. No, I made a typo. I got so focused on primes last nite that I seem to have typed it in instead of 'even'. I didn't notice it when I saw it posted to the list. My mistake, sorry for the confusion. What started this whole enquiry for me was the realization that the multiplication identity axiom is related to the definition of a prime. Then add on top of that the reason we exclude 1 is so we don't have to write '...except for the prime 1' on the end of lots of number theory (re Richard Feynman's comment during the Challenger Investigation). It was the realization that if we go ahead and include 1 so the axioms are in line with each other (and use our cut&paste feature for the '...1...') then perhaps it would provide a more consistent base and just maybe some of the extant problems in number theory might become solvable in other ways. My original intention was to get a copy of Doug Lenat's EURISKO theorem proving program and change the definition of prime in its database and note the results (after converting it to Perl from LISP). What started all that is that I'm slowly going through 'An Introduction to Algebraic Structures' by J. Landin (Dover) creating a cheat-sheet of number theory that eventualy I hope to post on my webpage for reference. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net Fri Nov 20 10:43:29 1998 From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:43:29 +0800 Subject: Militiamen Assault Federal Command Post Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:22:20 -0500 From: Anarchist News Service Reply-To: "news at overthrow.com" Organization: Utopian Anarchist Party MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.anarchism,alt.society.anarchy,alt.law-enforcement,alt.politics.youth,alt .society.high-school,alt.politics.radical-left,dc.general,alt.evil,alt.nuke. the.USA,alt.parents.stupid,alt.politics.drinking-age,alt.politics.libertaria n,alt.politics. To: "news at overthrow.com" Subject: Militiamen Assault Federal Command Post; Shots Exchanged, No Injuries Militiamen Assault Federal Command Post Shots Exchanged, No Injuries November 17, 1998 Andrews, NC -- An unknown number of militiamen attacked a federal command post late last week, exchanging fire with agents. No injuries on either side were reported, and the unknown number of militiamen were said to have fled. The Rudolph Command Post, in Andrews NC, is the base from which more than 200 federal agents are conducting a search for Eric Rudolph, suspected bomber of a number of abortion clinics and of the 1996 Olympics. Federal agents say that bullets whizzed by their heads and that one agent was barely grazed when nearly a dozen shots were fired into their headquarters. Eric Rudolph, 32, has been charged in numerous bombings, including one that killed a police officer, and has fled into the woods of Western North Carolina. The eighty agents that had been assigned to the case, until recently, when their number was boosted to 200, have been unable to locate Rudolph. ANS correspondants on the scene that the local residents overwhelmingly support Rudolph, and that many have pledged that they would support and shelter him if they felt it necessary. Rudolph is linked to far-right Christian organizations. ANS's North Carolina correspondents are not sympathetic to these organizations. ----- For more anarchist news and information, contact: Utopian Anarchist Party Post Office Box 12244 Silver Spring, MD 20908 uap at overthrow.com http://www.overthrow.com From ptrei at securitydynamics.com Fri Nov 20 11:21:29 1998 From: ptrei at securitydynamics.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:21:29 +0800 Subject: January Bay Area meeting date. Message-ID: The 1999 RSA Data Security Conference will be held in San Jose, Sunday January 17th thru Thursday, January 21. It will bring a lot of out-of-town members of these mailing lists into the Bay Area. Last year, the date of the January Cypherpunks Physical Meeting was shifted so that conference attendees who stayed over the weekend could turn up. Several did, and I gave a repeat performance of my conference presentation. I'd like to suggest shifting the date again. The physical meetings seem to be normally held second Saturdays, which suggests a Jan 9 date. If it could be moved up to the 16th, people could arrive on Friday (or early Saturday) and attend the cpunk meeting. Many conference attendees will be staying over that Saturday night to take advantage of the cheaper airfares. Peter Trei From mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de Fri Nov 20 11:21:29 1998 From: mok-kong.shen at stud.uni-muenchen.de (Mok-Kong Shen) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:21:29 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811201733.LAA11400@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3655B4B9.77434085@stud.uni-muenchen.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > > I'll give you a hint, more than that single problem goes away. But what would you gain in return for your defining 1 to be prime? M. K. Shen From hrook at exchange.microsoft.com Fri Nov 20 11:41:27 1998 From: hrook at exchange.microsoft.com (Harvey Rook (Exchange)) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:41:27 +0800 Subject: Message-ID: <2FBF98FC7852CF11912A0000000000010D19AD81@DINO> Oh my God! I'm so wrong! I feel so ashamed. Thank you for pointing this out and correcting me. ob cipher. I have working implementations of RC-4 and RC-6 with C++ source. Drop me a line if you'd like a copy. Harv hrook at microsoft.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Anonymous [mailto:nobody at replay.com] > Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 12:41 AM > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: > > > Moahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah > u STOOPID dickheads and fuckwads supporting > CUNTS like micro$oft or even working there. > FUCK YOU lousy cockroaches. I, the great > tormentor and terminator will stamp you > out and exterminate you like the pests you > are. > HaHaHaHaHaHa mothafuckaz. > You will all die and give way to a better > world, better people and better systems. > Long live Unix, Mac, Amiga and TERROR. > From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 20 11:45:14 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:45:14 +0800 Subject: Digital cockroaches, 5 IP's per body by 2000 [CNN] Message-ID: <3655BB59.76A8@lsil.com> > "Everyone will have an average of five IP objects on their body by > 2000," he predicted. > This is just blue sky space cadet baby wish babble. AKA : typical marketing spew. The kind of thing you can engage in when your house is paid off, your bank account is flush and you have a golden parachute. PureCrap*. Why would I voluntarily wear five independent tracking devices? So Louis Freeh can do telemetry and administer electroshock from Windows 2000? Move the bars closer, baby, I just love a cage. Please, yes I'll pay, just squeeze me. Everybody is trying to be the master of tomorrow's slave. ( phrase not my own ) Just say NO, Mike *All of the smell and none of the fertilizer, not even good for growing tomatoes. Anyone know a URL for Starion nee Comsec( 3DES telephones ) ? From ichudov at Algebra.COM Fri Nov 20 12:08:10 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:08:10 +0800 Subject: Militiamen Assault Federal Command Post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811201901.NAA18802@manifold.algebra.com> I am not convinced that the bullets that struck the command post were not simply hunting bullets that went astray. igor Secret Squirrel wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:22:20 -0500 > From: Anarchist News Service > Reply-To: "news at overthrow.com" > Organization: Utopian Anarchist Party > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Newsgroups: > > alt.anarchism,alt.society.anarchy,alt.law-enforcement,alt.politics.youth,alt > > .society.high-school,alt.politics.radical-left,dc.general,alt.evil,alt.nuke. > > the.USA,alt.parents.stupid,alt.politics.drinking-age,alt.politics.libertaria > n,alt.politics. > To: "news at overthrow.com" > Subject: Militiamen Assault Federal Command Post; Shots Exchanged, No > Injuries > > Militiamen Assault Federal Command Post > Shots Exchanged, No Injuries > > November 17, 1998 > > Andrews, NC -- An unknown number of militiamen attacked a federal > command post late last week, exchanging fire with agents. No injuries > on either side were reported, and the unknown number of militiamen were > said to have fled. The Rudolph Command Post, in Andrews NC, is the base > from which more than 200 federal agents are conducting a search for Eric > Rudolph, suspected bomber of a number of abortion clinics and of the > 1996 Olympics. > > Federal agents say that bullets whizzed by their heads and that one > agent was barely grazed when nearly a dozen shots were fired into their > headquarters. > > Eric Rudolph, 32, has been charged in numerous bombings, including > one that killed a police officer, and has fled into the woods of Western > North Carolina. The eighty agents that had been assigned to the case, > until recently, when their number was boosted to 200, have been unable > to locate Rudolph. ANS correspondants on the scene that the local > residents overwhelmingly support Rudolph, and that many have pledged > that they would support and shelter him if they felt it necessary. > > Rudolph is linked to far-right Christian organizations. ANS's North > Carolina correspondents are not sympathetic to these organizations. > > ----- > > For more anarchist news and information, contact: > > Utopian Anarchist Party > Post Office Box 12244 > Silver Spring, MD 20908 > > uap at overthrow.com > http://www.overthrow.com > > > > - Igor. From custer at ravenhillstudios.com Fri Nov 20 14:43:09 1998 From: custer at ravenhillstudios.com (custer at ravenhillstudios.com) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:43:09 +0800 Subject: Raven Hill Videos As Low As $6.99 Message-ID: <199811202156.NAA09781@toad.com> Dear Valued Customer, Raven Hill Studios Spanking Videos As low as $6.99. This is not a Joke. Come to our new site for complete details. http://www.ravenhillstudios.com http://www.ravenhillstudios.com http://www.ravenhillstudios.com Thank You Aaron Webmaster Raven Hill Studios From mib at io.com Fri Nov 20 14:43:40 1998 From: mib at io.com (mib) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:43:40 +0800 Subject: The Missing Thirteenth Amendment Message-ID: <3655E706.14A0D644@io.com> The Missing Thirteenth Amdendment http://www.nidlink.com/~bobhard/orig13th.html - d. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 20 15:54:48 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 07:54:48 +0800 Subject: NSA Threatens To "OUT" Republicans Over Hubbell Investigation In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B277@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981119201514.00b60bd0@idiom.com> At 08:57 PM 11/9/98 -0800, Matthew James Gering wrote: >Yes, I assumed as much. But it is electronic circuits that are EMP/nuclear >hardened, not the "encryption technology." ...... >, encryption is mathematics, period. National >security fearmongering to spite Clinton does not help the encryption >awareness/freedom campaign. Encryption is NOT just "mathematics, period". It's mathematics, plus operations, password management, key distribution, keeping track of who's allowed to see what, plus hardware and operating systems to run the mathematics on, and unless you're running it in wetware, it's also computer security to protect the hardware and operating systems. And it's black operations to go out and steal the other guys' hardware and keys and yellow-sticky-notes and crack their OSs. In some contexts, especially real people's contexts, your PC may be a fine place to run the encryption, but in an NSA / DoD context, especially when there's a war on, the safest way to manage many of these things is to use dedicated tamper-resistant hardware with the users on one side and the communication network on the other, where you don't have to worry about the user virusing their PC or using their girlfriend's name as the new password every other week, because it's in a black box that just works (or just works if you have the right key token and the right PIN.) EMP hardening has the pleasant side effect that it generally provides TEMPEST quieting/shielding as well. Also, in military environments, using special hardware instead of crypto software running on vanilla PCs is that rampant theft _is_ a problem, but that supply sergeant who'd be happy to requisition that PC for use in more remunerative environments isn't going to steal and sell the crypto bump-in-the-wire box; it's bad enough to lose any classified or sensitive information that was on the PC without also losing the encryption/signature keys. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Fri Nov 20 16:30:13 1998 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:30:13 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <83762d986d152f062f0bd96df4654a34@anonymous> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: >| Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:46:14 +0800 (CST) >| From: Bernardo B. Terrado >| To: Jim Gillogly >| Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com, coderpunks at toad.com >| Subject: manners and piracy >| >| I don't intend to pirate anything or make someone do it in any case. >| >| Well anyway thank you for your reply. >| What I'm trying to point out is this >| it is OK with me if you say "Take your piracy requests elsewhere" >| it is not OK with me if you say " ...fuck yourself" >| Bernardo Terrado: take your motherfucking, goddamned sorry warez ass to FUCKING hell! personally, i have nothing against an individual who wants to get some free shitty pirated software (*i'm* certainly NO warez pup, mind you), i'm a very open-minded anarchist/libertarian, i use Linux, GNUware, etc...(shit! those bloodsucking faggots at the IRS have enough to develop a profile of me now), but what *really* FUCKING offends me is when some cocksmoker like your sorry fucking "Rico Suave" self come onto this list and gets FUCKING offended by a motherFUCKing word like "FUCK". FUCK YOU Bernardo! no wait, F U C K Y O U, bernardo! FUCK YOU. Sincerely FUCK OFF, Bernardo, you stupid fucknut. -- PureFUCK, just another disgruntled taxpayer -- fingerFUCK Bernardo's mom for PureFUCK's PGP key >| gets? >| >| On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Jim Gillogly wrote: >| >| > Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: >| > > > Could someone give me a copy of statgraphics for dos or windows? >| > > > I would gladly appreciate it. >| > >| > and then took issue with somebody obscenely taking him to task for >| > asking these lists for a pirated version of this software: >| > >| > > Well I thought this list was a list of intellectuals, not only good in >| > > hacks and coding and programming and the likes but also well "tailored" >| > > with their manners, >| > >| > Bernardo, this package costs in the neighborhood of $900 US. What makes >| > you think the mannered intellectuals you expect to find on these >| > lists would either condone or contribute to software piracy on this >| > scale? Or that they would not take violent verbal objection to the >| > suggestion that they would do so? >| > >| > Take your piracy requests elsewhere. These aren't warez lists. >| > -- >| > Jim Gillogly >| > 29 Blotmath S.R. 1998, 01:12 >| > 12.19.5.12.12, 4 Eb 5 Ceh, Ninth Lord of Night From francearewcwinners at juno.com Fri Nov 20 17:54:27 1998 From: francearewcwinners at juno.com (Real Madrid) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:54:27 +0800 Subject: Top teams revised FOR YOU BRITS Message-ID: <19981120.202740.-66453.3.FranceareWCwinners@juno.com> HERE HERE HERE ALLAN AND JEFF ARE YOU HAPPY no numbers >ASTON VILLA >MANCHSETER UNITED >ENGLAND >real madrid >holland >FEYNORD >france >itlay >brazil >BAYERN MUNICH HAPPY ALLAN ARE YOU get me that deal with NIKE ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From francearewcwinners at juno.com Fri Nov 20 17:57:51 1998 From: francearewcwinners at juno.com (Real Madrid) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:57:51 +0800 Subject: Top players in the world revised: Message-ID: <19981120.202740.-66453.2.FranceareWCwinners@juno.com> !! FOR YOUENGLISH FANS !!! FOR YOU BRITS !!!VILLA MANCHESTER ARSENAL !! These are some very good revised players that could be called the best in the world-no number ranks! You oppinions Matter! alittle. Pass on to soccer lovers! Add! Take away! There are English now >INCE-ENGLAND-LIVERPOOL-DEFENSIVE MIDFIELD >OWEN-ENGLAND-LIVERPOOL-STRIKER-ONLY 18!!!!! >BECKHAM-ENGLAND-MANCHESTER UNITED-MIDFIELD >ADAMS-ENGLAND-ARSENAL-SWEEPER >CAMBELL-ENGLAND-MANCHESTER UNITED-DEFENDER HAPPY NOW ALLAN+JEFF >Zidane- France-Juventus-Attacking midfield >Ronaldo-Brazil-Inter-Striker >Thuram-France-Parma-Defender >Chivalert-Paraguay-River Plate-Goal Kepper >Davids-Holland-Juventus-Defensive Midfield >R.Carlos-Brazil-Real Madrid- WIDE Defender >Hierro-France-Real Madrid-Center Defender >Raul-Spain-Real Madrid-Attacking Midfield/Striker >Seedorf-Holland-Real Madrid-Midfield >Rivaldo-Brazil-Barcelona-Attaking Midfield >Dessally-France-Chelsea-Center Defender >Frank De Boer-Holland-Ajax-Center Defender >Van der Sar-Holland-Ajax-Goal Keeper >Del Piero-Italy-Juventus-Striker >Mijatovic-Yugoslovia-Real Madrid-Striker >Suker-Croatia-Real Madrid-Striker IS THIS OK RYANS GOING BACK TO PAXON JAV!!!!! ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From nobody at replay.com Fri Nov 20 18:04:20 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:04:20 +0800 Subject: none In-Reply-To: <83762d986d152f062f0bd96df4654a34@anonymous> Message-ID: <199811210137.CAA27845@replay.com> >>>> PureFUCK fucking wrote: [a whole lot of fucking text deleted] > i use Linux, GNUware, etc... [more fucking text deleted] don't *real* fucking linux hackers say `fscking'? just fucking curious... -- NotTheBobMonger ;-) From palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com Fri Nov 20 18:28:09 1998 From: palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com (palmdeveloper at palmdevcon.com) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:28:09 +0800 Subject: Register Today for Palm Dev Con -- Win Great Prizes! Message-ID: <199811210203.SAA11016@toad.com> Be a Part of the New Force in Handheld Computing! Point your browser to http://www.palmdevcon.com and register now for the 1998 Palm Computing Platform Worldwide Developer Conference. Hear Keynotes from the industry's leading experts in handheld computing including Mark Bercow, Jeff Hawkins, Donna Dubinsky and more! Choose from over 90 hours of sessions --including introductory & advanced technical, sponsor, and business and enterprise sessions. And, be the first to see hot new and pre-release technologies! Register TODAY! http://www.palmdevcon.com Those who pre-register qualify to win great prizes, including Palm devices for a year and a trip to SuperBowl XXXIII! (On-site registrants will not be eligible, so register now!) Your email was included on a list provided by Palm Computing, Inc. Should you wish to be deleted from this list, please respond back to "postmaster at palmdevcon.com". From nobody at replay.com Fri Nov 20 19:18:58 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:18:58 +0800 Subject: m'men / baiting Message-ID: <199811210255.DAA02118@replay.com> At 01:01 PM 11/20/98 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >I am not convinced that the bullets that struck the command post >were not simply hunting bullets that went astray. Pessimist. From nobody at replay.com Fri Nov 20 19:21:22 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:21:22 +0800 Subject: do not fold spindle or mutilate Message-ID: <199811210255.DAA02082@replay.com> At 08:15 PM 11/19/98 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >Encryption is NOT just "mathematics, period". It's mathematics, >plus operations, password management, key distribution, >keeping track of who's allowed to see what, >plus hardware and operating systems to run the mathematics on, >and unless you're running it in wetware, it's also >computer security to protect the hardware and operating systems. >And it's black operations to go out and steal the other guys' >hardware and keys and yellow-sticky-notes and crack their OSs. Actually, to a sufficiently advanced civilization, these are all describable with mathematics. >In some contexts, especially real people's contexts, >your PC may be a fine place to run the encryption, >but in an NSA / DoD context, especially when there's a war on, >the safest way to manage many of these things is to use >dedicated tamper-resistant hardware with the users on one side Nota bene: tamper-detection + zeroizing >> tamper resistance. --Pasty aliens spied my mugs From zzq2 at juno.com Fri Nov 20 19:28:14 1998 From: zzq2 at juno.com (John P Walker) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:28:14 +0800 Subject: Mea Cupla Message-ID: <19981120.221100.-1897.3.zzq2@juno.com> I am afraid I just accidently posted a completely off topic message. This is because the address of cypherpunks and my friend are next to each other in my address book, and I clicked on the wrong one. Again, I am very sorry to waste your time. -John ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From zzq2 at juno.com Fri Nov 20 19:32:02 1998 From: zzq2 at juno.com (John P Walker) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:32:02 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Top players in the world revised: Message-ID: <19981120.220631.-1897.2.zzq2@juno.com> --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: francearewcwinners at juno.com (Real Madrid) To: FranceareWCwinners at juno.com Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com, skain0285 at aol.com, agreaves at netreach.net, Jav885 at aol.com, zzq2 at juno.com, greg at juno.com, UBshaggin at aol.com, SB0702 at aol.com, SlvurCloud at aol.com, Tippy51587 at aol.com, Shon941 at aol.com, Michael200000 at juno.com, schnook27 at aol.com, 007 at aol.com, scottbrown at Exeloncorps.com, ray at aol.com, errorlie at aol.com, case_s at aol.com, LalaJeff at aol.com, bob at aol.com, Hotgirl at aol.com, dazedcow at aol.com, ronaldo at aol.com, RealMadrid at aol.com, dumbblonde at aol.com, prostitute at aol.com, johnsmith at aol.com, nudegirl at aol.com, umb at aol.com, joe at aol.com, janitor at aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:22:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Top players in the world revised: Message-ID: <19981120.202740.-66453.2.FranceareWCwinners at juno.com> !! FOR YOUENGLISH FANS !!! FOR YOU BRITS !!!VILLA MANCHESTER ARSENAL !! These are some very good revised players that could be called the best in the world-no number ranks! You oppinions Matter! alittle. Pass on to soccer lovers! Add! Take away! There are English now >INCE-ENGLAND-LIVERPOOL-DEFENSIVE MIDFIELD >OWEN-ENGLAND-LIVERPOOL-STRIKER-ONLY 18!!!!! >BECKHAM-ENGLAND-MANCHESTER UNITED-MIDFIELD >ADAMS-ENGLAND-ARSENAL-SWEEPER >CAMBELL-ENGLAND-MANCHESTER UNITED-DEFENDER HAPPY NOW ALLAN+JEFF >Zidane- France-Juventus-Attacking midfield >Ronaldo-Brazil-Inter-Striker >Thuram-France-Parma-Defender >Chivalert-Paraguay-River Plate-Goal Kepper >Davids-Holland-Juventus-Defensive Midfield >R.Carlos-Brazil-Real Madrid- WIDE Defender >Hierro-France-Real Madrid-Center Defender >Raul-Spain-Real Madrid-Attacking Midfield/Striker >Seedorf-Holland-Real Madrid-Midfield >Rivaldo-Brazil-Barcelona-Attaking Midfield >Dessally-France-Chelsea-Center Defender >Frank De Boer-Holland-Ajax-Center Defender >Van der Sar-Holland-Ajax-Goal Keeper >Del Piero-Italy-Juventus-Striker >Mijatovic-Yugoslovia-Real Madrid-Striker >Suker-Croatia-Real Madrid-Striker IS THIS OK RYANS GOING BACK TO PAXON JAV!!!!! ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From riburr at shentel.net Fri Nov 20 20:53:01 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:53:01 +0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <83762d986d152f062f0bd96df4654a34@anonymous> Message-ID: <36564138.F1EC2D99@shentel.net> Mixmaster wrote: > Bernardo Terrado: take your motherfucking, goddamned sorry warez ass to FUCKING hell! [flying fuckfest snipped...]Oh shit! Bwahhaahaaa, HAHABWAAAHAHAAAA!!!DAMN! Now look what you made me do, I gotta change my pants. Harumffff, BWFFFFAHAAHAAAAAA!!! Jeeezuz. Sheesh. You go wash your mouth before you kiss your mother. Goddamn. begin: vcard fn: Rick Burroughs n: Burroughs;Rick email;internet: riburr at shentel.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Fri Nov 20 22:47:53 1998 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:47:53 +0800 Subject: Free Email as Anonymous Remailer Re: NPR is at it again... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981114002632.007caa30@idiom.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the slow reply. Any http anonymizer not using link padding is subject to trivial traffic analysis. See the "Pipe-net" thread in the archive. Also see the graphs at http://www.onion-router.net/Vis.html What makes the graphs all the more impressive is that the OR people used to argue against my claim that you need link padding. They don't argue any more. ;-) --Lucky On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 11:47 PM 11/11/98 +0100, Lucky Green wrote: > >On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: > >> An interesting project would be a free low-volume anonymizer cgi for Apache, > >> given the large number of current users and the much larger number > >> of people who will run web servers once they have cable modems. > >How do you do chaining with a cgi? > > Looks easy enough to do, if a bit ugly, where "ugly" is somewhat equivalent to > "build yet another local proxy widget to hide the gory details", > though it's not really much uglier than doing a good anonymizer, > and getting details like cookies and Java/script right are harder. > > Define "encrypted" as "PGP or something like it". It may be possible > to gain some efficiencies by using SSL, but not critical. > Take a cgi script and use POST to hand it an encrypted block containing: > Response-Key: > HTTP Request, either vanilla URL or cgi URL with GET or POST data. > Maybe some digicash > Maybe some additional data > The script fetches the URL, handing along any data, > packages the response in HTTP reply format, and encrypts it with the > response key for the client proxy to unpack. > > To chain these, have the client nest the requests, doing a > URL that points to another anonymizer script and POSTs an encrypted block. > Eventually you'll get to a non-anonymizing URL; > it may be interesting to include any expected cookies in the block, > so the client can hand them to the destination web server, > or to gain some efficiencies by having the cgi script fetch > any IMG requests, and sending a bundle of HTTP reply packets > instead of just a single one. > > The problems - > - How can easily can you break the system? > --- Does it leave too many open connections that can be followed? > --- Does the decreasing size of the requests and > increasing size of responses make it too easy to trace? > --- What other obvious security holes are there? > - Timeouts or other problems? > - Denial of service attacks? > > Thanks! > Bill > Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com > PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 > -- Lucky Green PGP v5 encrypted email preferred. From strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net Sat Nov 21 15:14:06 1998 From: strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net (strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 15:14:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T D Price: 3 1/2 ($3.50/share) QNETD is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNETD has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNETD's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNETD is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quote.yahoo.com ggi. From strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net Sat Nov 21 15:14:06 1998 From: strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net (strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 15:14:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T D Price: 3 1/2 ($3.50/share) QNETD is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNETD has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNETD's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNETD is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quote.yahoo.com ggi. From itcmex at fastnet.com.mx Sat Nov 21 16:31:41 1998 From: itcmex at fastnet.com.mx (itcmex at fastnet.com.mx) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:31:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oportunidad de Negocio Diferente Message-ID: <199811220128.TAA21045@mail.netmex.com> � QUIERE GANAR BASTANTE DINERO ? ===========>>>>>> http://209.116.145.95 Obten GRATIS software para enviar Correo Masivo (promocion limitada) _________________________________________________________ Si usted no desea recibir mas OPORTUNIDADES DE NEGOCIOS regrese este E-mail insertando "remove" en el subject. Por su tiempo GRACIAS. _________________________________________________________ From drg at pgh.org Sat Nov 21 07:01:26 1998 From: drg at pgh.org (Dr.G) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 23:01:26 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges In-Reply-To: <199811201619.KAA17451@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:19:32 -0600 (CST) > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" > To: "Dr.G" > Cc: ichudov at Algebra.Com, schear at lvcm.com, apf2 at apf2.com, > cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges > > Dr.G wrote: > > > > On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:51:58 -0600 (CST) > > > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" > > > To: Steve Schear > > > Cc: apf2 at apf2.com, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, drg at pgh.org > > > Subject: Re: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges > > > > > > I would certainly appreciate pot yeast. > > > > > > > I would certainly appreciate some pot. > > Well, I never smoked pot because I do not like the idea of smoking > anything and inhaling all this tar, soot, etc. That is true with a joint. But a water pipe, like an aqua pipe, removes 95% of all of that tar and other crap. It is in the test results envelope in every aqua pipe package. That pipe is available in most cigar & pipe tobacco shops. I saw my friends having > real fun with pot and thought that pot bread or something like that > would be great. > > Perhaps I sound very ignorant... > No, just somewhat uninformed, as most people are regarding cannabis. You can vaporize pot and/or eat pot, for medicinal purposes. -JG From stuffed at stuffed.net Sun Nov 22 01:14:57 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED SUN NOV 22) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: STUFFED NOW HAS LINKS TO 100S MORE PHOTOS! Message-ID: <19981122081000.12042.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> CHECK OUT ALL THE NEW STUFF IN STUFFED! + XTACY + PADDERSON'S PLAYHOUSE + ASIA ILLUSTRATED + PORNCAST + TECHNOPORN + ORGASM 4 ALL + TOKYO GIRLS + ALL THAT ASS + FABULOUS HARDCORE PORN + SUGAR PIE + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 21 09:36:53 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:36:53 +0800 Subject: EMSEC Docs Message-ID: <199811211701.MAA04223@camel14.mindspring.com> Thanks to JM's pointers we offer three related May 1998 USAF docs on emissions security: AFI 33-203 - Emissisions Security http://jya.com/afi33-203.htm (61K) AFSSI 7010 - Emission Security Assessments http://jya.com/afssi-7010.htm (110K) AFSSM 7011 - Emission Security Countermeasures Reviews http://jya.com/afssm-7011.htm (515K) Or, a zipped package of the three: http://jya.com/afemsec.zip (146K) While there's a fair amount in the last two docs about security for classified NONSTOP and HIJACK systems, we'd welcome more detail to fill in the deleted parts. From strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 22 02:08:19 1998 From: strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net (strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 02:08:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T D Price: 3 1/2 ($3.50/share) QNETD is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNETD has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNETD's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNETD is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quote.yahoo.com ggi. From strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 22 02:08:19 1998 From: strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net (strongmarketstock75bbn at worldnet.att.net) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 02:08:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T D Price: 3 1/2 ($3.50/share) QNETD is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNETD has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNETD's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNETD is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quote.yahoo.com ggi. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 21 12:07:31 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:07:31 +0800 Subject: How to make non-neutral charge batteries... In-Reply-To: <199811100313.VAA15569@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981121134111.00b98100@idiom.com> At 09:13 PM 11/9/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >The two vertical plates above are not a capacitor. They simply represent >some mechanism to hold charge, Leyden Jars for example. A Leyden Jar _IS_ a capacitor, which _IS_ a mechanism to hold charge. Capacitors don't have to come from a factory in plastic or ceramic packaging; they're simply two (or more) conductive surfaces separated by insulation; that insulation can be air (or probably even vacuum), though there are much better insulators around, which commercial capacitors normally use. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 21 12:08:16 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:08:16 +0800 Subject: Digital cockroaches, 5 IP's per body by 2000 [CNN] In-Reply-To: <3655BB59.76A8@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981121141105.00b9d9a0@idiom.com> At 10:56 AM 11/20/98 -0800, Michael Motyka wrote: >> "Everyone will have an average of five IP objects on their body by >> 2000," he predicted. >This is just blue sky space cadet baby wish babble. AKA : typical >marketing spew. [....] >Why would I voluntarily wear five independent tracking devices? So Louis >Freeh can do telemetry and administer electroshock from Windows 2000? A while back I stopped wearing a wristwatch because I was normally carrying about 5 things that did or should know what time it was, between pagers, cellphone, etc. IP is less likely, but maybe it'll happen. There's no reason to assume the IP devices are transmit-connected to the outside world; if you've wearing or carrying multiple devices that talk two each other, and CPU is nearly free, might as well put a Layer 3 protocol on them as well as Layer 1 and Layer 2, so your Gargoyle-Vision eyeglasses and left or right earpieces can operate independently and wireless, regardless of whether you're carrying the backpack microCray or just one or more of the beltpack or pocketsized WhereAmIGPS receiver, VoicePDA, Sony WalkPerson, more flexible hearing aid, 1-way pager, or broadcast news receiver, all of which can be smaller and more convenient because they share the same output displays rather than each having their own, as well as having the two-way IPcellphone, shoephone, email, and web, and the one-or-two-way pickup of data feeds from museums, data-billboards, traffic reports, sidewalk-toll-collection, and air tax. But even the two-way devices don't _have_ to support tracking you - some of the Mobile IP protocols are better at that than others, so the Feds may know that somebody with a DHCP address is tunneled into the microcell on the streetcorner, but not who, or alternatively they may be able to see the outside of the tunnel to trace you but not see the insides. After all, the military's happy to develop location-hiding protocols, like onion routing, even if the FBI and other parts of the military want traceability and eavesdropping. >Anyone know a URL for Starion nee Comsec( 3DES telephones ) ? If that's Eric Blossom's company, Altavista should know where to find it. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Sat Nov 21 12:51:17 1998 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:51:17 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <5bc6aa72d01810e8c3dc57cbcb82e8b6@anonymous> ++Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:37:45 +0100 ++From: Anonymous ++To: cypherpunks at toad.com ++Subject: Re: none ++ ++>>>> PureFUCK fucking wrote: ++ ++[a whole lot of fucking text deleted] ++ ++ > i use Linux, GNUware, etc... ++ ++[more fucking text deleted] ++ ++don't *real* fucking linux hackers say `fscking'? ++just fucking curious... ++ ++-- NotTheBobMonger ;-) hi NotTheBobMonger! well, yes, you are absoFUCKINGlutely correct; we do indeed generally use "fsck" instead of "GO FUCK YOURSELF, bernardo terrado". i decided to make an exception for Bernardo "Go Fuck Yourself" Terrado though. i generally say "FUCK" every April too though when the IRS *violently* tosses my fucking salad. Regards, -- PureFUCK -- finger tossmyfsckingsalad at irs.gov for my NSA approved, backdoored, and sold out by NAI, PGP key From riburr at shentel.net Sat Nov 21 12:52:48 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:52:48 +0800 Subject: "The FBI has become part of the heart, soul and fabric of America" Message-ID: <365721A6.ACC013F4@shentel.net> The new Strategic Information an Operations Center is unveiled at FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. Counterterrorism, computer and violent crime units have dibs on the center's resources. George Bush cut the ribbon and reporters were given one last look at tax dollars before they cross over the event horizon. Subject of this post is a quote from Attorney General Reno at the unveiling. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-11/21/077l-112198-idx.html Also, a press release from the DOJ (marked "Not For Release"), announcing a photo op of the Attorney General with Brady "Instant Check" employees at the FBI Complex at Clarksburg, WVa on thursday, Nov. 19. Photo op was announced Nov. 18, media responses were required close of business the same day. National Instant Check System for handgun, rifle and shotgun sales begins operation on Nov. 30. http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1998/November/553at.htm I'm neutral on gun registration but the giant sucking sound from WVa is bothering my chickens. � From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 21 13:53:42 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:53:42 +0800 Subject: How to make non-neutral charge batteries... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811212131.PAA16124@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:41:11 -0500 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: Re: How to make non-neutral charge batteries... > At 09:13 PM 11/9/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >The two vertical plates above are not a capacitor. They simply represent > >some mechanism to hold charge, Leyden Jars for example. > > A Leyden Jar _IS_ a capacitor, which _IS_ a mechanism to hold charge. No shit Bill..... > Capacitors don't have to come from a factory in plastic or ceramic packaging; > they're simply two (or more) conductive surfaces separated by insulation; > that insulation can be air (or probably even vacuum), though there are > much better insulators around, which commercial capacitors normally use. No shit twice Bill, I make mine for my Tesla Coil out of copper sheeting and BIG (3ft x 6ft) plates of glass that were scrapped from a constuction site. Know what? If you take the Layden Jar, put a charge on the inside plate and then remove the OUTSIDE plate which is required to get it there, IT STILL HOLDS A CHARGE. Don't believe it? Try this: Take one plane of glass and two copper sheets. Place a glass between alternating copper layers thusly: Cu > ----------------------- --------------------------- < glass ----------------------- < Cu Then place a charge on it by using a standard battery. Then remove the metal plates leaving just the glass. Where do YOU believe the charge is stored, on the metal plates? If so....BUUUUUZZZZZZZ....wrong answer. If it were so we'd get a discharge if we connect the two metal sheets together after removing from the glass plate, you won't. If you put two metal plates on the glass and connect them again you'll get a spark. The charge RESTS ON THE SURFACE OF THE INSULATOR, the metal plates are there so that we can get an even charge distribution QUICKLY across the insulating dielectric. You could do it using just a couple of wires touching opposite sides of the glass but it will take a whopping long time to get the charge on the dielectric plate because it's an insulator and it has very few surface electrons (one of the characteristics of an insulator) to help distribute it. I'll let you in on another little secret. If you take two Leyden Jars and charge the inside plates of the two jars alternately and then connect them with a wire you'll get a spark clearly demonstrating charge flow, even if the outside plates aren't connected. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 21 13:55:57 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:55:57 +0800 Subject: Oh, a warning about playing with glass & charge.... Message-ID: <199811212138.PAA16195@einstein.ssz.com> If you do decide to play with charges stored on glass plates wear eye protection because every once in a while the mechanical stress is more than the glass can take and it will shatter. One way you can do this is to go to your local video arcade and purchase one of the glass sheets they use to cover their pinball machines. Then carry that glass plate by the edge in your hand as you scuff your feet across a nylon pile carpet (again wear safety glasses). The result about 1 out of 100 times, or if you've got lots of patience and can afford hours to scuff feet on carpet, is that the glass plate will shatter with a report about equivalent to a .22. Anyone watching should also wear eye protection as the shards can go 20ft. or moe. It's best if you do this on a cold dry day. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 21 14:21:33 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 06:21:33 +0800 Subject: Another charge question for you physics genius'es Message-ID: <199811212202.QAA16288@einstein.ssz.com> Get yourself a 10,000 mike electrolytic cap. I prefer one of the cylindrical blue ones that have the 8-32 threaded terms on the top. Put a screw in each terminal. Short the screws with commen copper connection wire. Let it sit for several days to be sure there is no charge on it. Then remove the wire and let it sit for a couple of weeks. Then I dare you to touch it to your tongue. The question is: Where did that charge that just knocked the shit out of you come from? ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 21 14:26:39 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 06:26:39 +0800 Subject: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd) Message-ID: <199811212205.QAA16339@einstein.ssz.com> I guess Bill's decided to play around with his filtering software.... Forwarded message: > From cypherpunks at openpgp.net Sat Nov 21 16:02:59 1998 > From: cypherpunks at openpgp.net > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:58:50 -0500 > Message-Id: <199811212202.QAA16288 at einstein.ssz.com> > Errors-To: whgiii at openpgp.net > Reply-To: cypherpunks at openpgp.net > Originator: cypherpunks at openpgp.net > Sender: cypherpunks at openpgp.net > Precedence: bulk > To: ravage at einstein.ssz.com > Cc: whgiii at openpgp.net > Subject: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Loop: ssz.com > Content-Type: text > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] > X-Loop: openpgp.net > > > We are sorry, but this system sensed the following request which may have been > inadvertedly sent to this list: > > GET YOURSELF A 10,000 MIKE ELECTROLYTIC CAP. I PREFER ONE OF THE CYLINDRICAL > > If your posting was intentional, please accept our apologies and resend your > mail message, making sure you do not include anything that may look like a > request in the first line of the body of the actual message. If this was > indeed a request please resend it to listproc > Your entire message > is copied below. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get yourself a 10,000 mike electrolytic cap. I prefer one of the cylindrical > blue ones that have the 8-32 threaded terms on the top. Put a screw in each > terminal. Short the screws with commen copper connection wire. Let it sit > for several days to be sure there is no charge on it. > > Then remove the wire and let it sit for a couple of weeks. Then I dare you > to touch it to your tongue. > > The question is: > > Where did that charge that just knocked the shit out of you come from? > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want > the right answers. > > Scully (X-Files) > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 21 15:28:34 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:28:34 +0800 Subject: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd) Message-ID: <199811212307.RAA16588@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "William H. Geiger III" > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:05:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd) > In <199811212205.QAA16339 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/21/98 > at 04:05 PM, Jim Choate said: > > >I guess Bill's decided to play around with his filtering software.... > > No, listproc has some internal filtering to prevent message loops, subscribe requests, error messages, ect from going out to the main list. Unfortunately these settings can not be adjusted in the list settings but are set at compile time for the software. > > I have a shitload of error messages in my mailbox I have to sort through and figure out wether listproc is going to be too much of a PITA. I may have to get majordomo installed on the system and use that if this becomes too much of a problem (I really don't have time to be continually babysitting the system). > > Ahhh the joy and fun of running a CP node. :) :) Good luck and apologies for my incorrect conclusion. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 21 15:45:04 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:45:04 +0800 Subject: Message-ID: <199811212304.AAA22006@replay.com> wrote: >Moahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah >u STOOPID dickheads and fuckwads supporting >CUNTS like micro$oft or even working there. >FUCK YOU lousy cockroaches. I, the great >tormentor and terminator will stamp you >out and exterminate you like the pests you >are. >HaHaHaHaHaHa mothafuckaz. >You will all die and give way to a better >world, better people and better systems. >Long live Unix, Mac, Amiga and TERROR. You are confusing the rest of us with Paul Merrill . Please remedy this situation immediately. Some of us do not support the Legion of Idiots as he does. From whgiii at openpgp.net Sat Nov 21 16:09:45 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:09:45 +0800 Subject: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd) Message-ID: <199811212259.RAA015.03@whgiii> In <199811212307.RAA16588 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/21/98 at 06:03 PM, Jim Choate said: >Forwarded message: >> From: "William H. Geiger III" >> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:05:10 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd) >> In <199811212205.QAA16339 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/21/98 >> at 04:05 PM, Jim Choate said: >> >> >I guess Bill's decided to play around with his filtering software.... >> >> No, listproc has some internal filtering to prevent message loops, subscribe requests, error messages, ect from going out to the main list. Unfortunately these settings can not be adjusted in the list settings but are set at compile time for the software. >> >> I have a shitload of error messages in my mailbox I have to sort through and figure out wether listproc is going to be too much of a PITA. I may have to get majordomo installed on the system and use that if this becomes too much of a problem (I really don't have time to be continually babysitting the system). >> >> Ahhh the joy and fun of running a CP node. :) >:) >Good luck and apologies for my incorrect conclusion. FWIW when a message is rejected both the sender and myself should get CC'd a copy of the message and the reason for the reject so no messages should be "lost". Some of the filtering is nice, like those elmz blank subject error messages are filtered out by the program. Unfortunatly a "good" message gets filtered and I need to manually forward it to the list. Since I don't have any subscribers yet this has not been a problem. :) -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From PaulMerrill at acm.org Sat Nov 21 16:10:06 1998 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:10:06 +0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <199811212304.AAA22006@replay.com> Message-ID: <365751AD.DE3C8DBF@ACM.Org> I am not sure which of these assholes I feel sorrier for, the asshole with absolutely no clue about anything but fow to say "Moahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah" or the dipwad that shows some signs of being capable of detecting clues, but never learned how to read. While I do use Microsoft products, I am not a supporter of them. BTW if you (insist on placing words in my mouth, at least try not to be such a chickenshit about it by thoroughly hiding yourself while attempting to smear me all over. -- and you missed the H. Paul *H.* Merrill PHM Anonymous wrote: > > wrote: > > >Moahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah > >u STOOPID dickheads and fuckwads supporting > >CUNTS like micro$oft or even working there. > >FUCK YOU lousy cockroaches. I, the great > >tormentor and terminator will stamp you > >out and exterminate you like the pests you > >are. > >HaHaHaHaHaHa mothafuckaz. > >You will all die and give way to a better > >world, better people and better systems. > >Long live Unix, Mac, Amiga and TERROR. > > You are confusing the rest of us with Paul Merrill . > Please remedy this situation immediately. Some of us do not support the > Legion of Idiots as he does. From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sat Nov 21 21:49:35 1998 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:49:35 +0800 Subject: Rivest Patent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <019b01be15d3$818348a0$a3283480@games> > >I have no idea if Watt had a patent on the steam governor. But I bet he > >didn't try to take one out on Boyle's Law. I seem to recall that he tried to patent the idea of feedback - and was refused. He got the govenor patent though. I think the biggest problems are not so much in the extensions to the internationally accepted scope of patentability that the US patent office has uniquely indulged in in the past but the more recent accretions. Business models and experimental data are now being allowed - what possible justification can there be for giving the first person to mechanically sequence a piece of DNA exclusive commercial rights to exploit that knowledge. Ulitmately the US PTO has become an international object of ridicule and contempt. The PTO operates under a condition of moral hazard - it knows that it is likely to be sued for refusing a patent but cannot be sued for incompetently (or for that matter even maliciously granting one). One enterprising chappie even patented PEM - using the RFC as a reference in the claim! There are numerous examples of similar negligence. I can provide several examples of US patents issued with identical independent claims, in one case near identicaly worded. Rather than debate the PTO's actions of 20 years ago it would seem more appropriate to discuss their current actions. Phill From vortexia at doxx.net Sun Nov 22 05:36:29 1998 From: vortexia at doxx.net (Vortexia) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:36:29 +0800 Subject: Question about general patents Message-ID: <003401be161a$2b4a4140$c9e431ce@vort.nis.za> I was wondering... what is the current law in the United States about patenting of software programs, and does anyone know where I can find out if there are any standard international laws about the patenting of software. I have products that I and the rest of my company have designed that we need patented, unfortunatly the South African patent act reads like this: (Republic of South Africa, Patents act no. 57 of 1978) Section 2.2.1: Anything which consists of a discovery; a scientific theory; a mathematical concept; a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work or any other aesthetic creation, a scheme, rule or method for performing a mental act, playing a game or doing business, a program for a computer; or the presentation of information, is not regarded as an invention for the purposes of the Patents Act. If there is any other way to protect my software and my designs internationally, or under any international treaties etc, and anyone knows of such a way, please drop me an email, it would be much appreciated. Cheers Andrew Alston From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 22 07:24:00 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:24:00 +0800 Subject: KRA on NAI/KRA Message-ID: <199811221443.JAA09869@camel14.mindspring.com> Phil and Cabe, For your info. Response will be very welcome. John --------- Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:27:31 -0800 To: pgp-users at joshua.rivertown.net, cryptography at c2.net From: Dave Del Torto Subject: KRA on ADK vs KR, NAI membership Cc: coderpunks at toad.com, ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Summary: (1) The Key Recovery Alliance will analyze the viability of PGP's ADK technology as an alternative to escrowing of keying material and intends to publish its position. (2) Network Associates IS a member of the KRA as of July 2, 1998. Note that date is ~6 months after NAI represented itself as having withdrawn. (3) Corporate contacts for KRA member-companies are not public information. I have also inquired about who the KRA contact person is at NAI. dave -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0 Comment: Get interested in computers -- they're interested in YOU! iQA/AwUBNlgRApBN/qMowCmvEQLm7wCgx+7sBVgBQsXisQLJswx3w7a16Q0Anii3 XOzJzZxEMqd9YnMlz93U+iXX =eHxw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ................................. cut here ................................. My Inquiry to the KRA: To: info at kra.org Subject: request for information -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello, I have some questions about the KRA. 1. In your FAQ , you state that one of the organization's goals is to: "Serve as a focal point for industry efforts to develop commercially acceptable solutions for recovery of encrypted information" This seems to allow that there may be valid encrypted _data_ recovery methods other than _key_ recovery using the KRA's "common key recovery block" (still under discussion). However, I'm not aware of the KRA's public position on the recovery of plaintext using cryptographically sound and ethically responsible alternatives to the escrowing of keys in organizational situations, e.g. PGP's Additional Decryption Key (ADK) mechanism. What is the KRA's public position on PGP's ADK? 2. A public debate has recently arisen because the KRA website's member roster indicates that Network Associates (NAI) is a member of the KRA. NAI representatives, however, have publicly contraindicated this. Can you clarify NAI's membership status in the KRA, specifically: A. On what date (if ever) did NAI apply for membership in the KRA? B. Is the KRA in possession of any evidence (letter, etc) to show that NAI was or is a member of the KRA? C. If NAI was a member of the KRA at any time, on what date did a corporate officer of NAI formally withdraw NAI from the KRA, if ever? D. Regarding KRA membership policy, if a company is not a member itself but acquires another company that is a KRA member, but, does this acquisition automatically confer membership status on the parent company, or is a formal request to "expand" the company's membership necessary? E. If NAI was not a member of the KRA at the time of its Trusted Information Systems (TIS) acquisition, did the KRA receive a request from any NAI representative to expand TIS's membership to all of NAI? 3. KRA member companies are listed with their web URLs, but no individual contact name/phone/email is provided for any of them. Can you supply a complete listing of the designated contacts (corporate representatives) at each of the KRA member organizations, should one want to discuss with them their respective companies' KR positions or proposals? For example, if, in fact, the KRA website is correct to list NAI as a member, then who is NAI's official KRA representative? Thank you in advance for your prompt clarification. dave ____________________________________________________________________________ Dave Del Torto +1.415.334.5533 CSO & VP Security Consulting Level Seven Digital Labs PGP Key: Fingerprint: 9b29 031d 70de f566 e076 b108 904d fea3 28c0 29af / Size: 4096 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0 iQA/AwUBNlUMapBN/qMowCmvEQKt8wCg0i6ZZj1a6aL/TrzM/jqv4wKBEnoAoK4e xkwtQCiBJDHuBUWFRzCRBA/K =fg+B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ................................. cut here ................................. The KRA's prompt reply (signed by me to indicate what I received): -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:31:50 -0800 To: Dave Del Torto From: Michael LoBue Subject: Re: request for information Cc: Majdalany at kra.org, Bobbie at kra.org Mr. Del Torto, Thank you for your inquiry about a KRA member company. I am member of the Alliance's secretariat staff addressing their business and administrative needs. This puts me in a position to answer some of your questions directly. Others I will pass along to appropriate Alliance member representatives for response. About the KRA's public position on PGP's ADK, obviously it was not adequately addressed for your needs in the Alliance's existing materials. I will ask a more appropriate and knowledgeable spokesperson to respond to your questions and concerns. Concerning Network Associates membership in the KRA, in response to your question I have verified that our files contain an executed Membership Agreement for Network Associates (dated July 2, 1998), as well as a properly completed Application for Membership of that same date. As an aside, the KRA has retained our firm to manage their business and administrative affairs. Our business is solely the management of industry associations. Thus, we have no conflict of interest as our clients are the 'associations' themselves and not any of the individual member companies. For the management of our client associations (currently 4) we employ certain practice standards. One important practice area is the impartial recognition of membership. Simply put, we exercise no discretionary judgment about whether a company is a member or not. If a company completes the required steps to become a member (execute an agreement, complete an application and pay the appropriate dues) they become a member. In other words, membership is binary...complete all the steps --> become a member; omit any of these steps --> NOT a member. Ever since the the Alliance was formally constituted as a California nonprofit corporation (October 1997), rigorous application processes have been in place. It is true that a number of companies, including NAI I believe, were attending meetings under the name of the KRA during much of 1997. However, until the Alliance was formally constituted, involving membership agreements, applications and payment of dues, it's not entirely accurate to characterize those companies participating in 1997 as 'members' of the Alliance. Indeed, some of this current 'public debate' about NAI's relationship with the KRA goes back to their public statement that they 'withdrew' from the organization. The fact of the matter is that they simply did not choose to become an actual member at the time the organization was formally constituted. When it was reported that they withdrew, there was in fact no entity from which to withdraw. Regarding the listing of individual representatives from member companies, it is the Alliance's policy not to do this. For whatever it's worth, this is a standard practice of industry associations. I am passing your message along to the designated NAI representative and inviting him to respond. At the risk of stating the obvious, it is not uncommon for companies in any industry, especially hi-tech, to have multiple opinions within their management teams. And, to have these opinions expressed in public forums. It has been my experience that it is dangerous to infer corporate and product strategies from a companies membership in industry groups. Companies join industry associations for all manner of reasons, not all of which they share with the market. I'm not suggesting any thing other than the fact that our industry makes for extremely "complex business" and there's no reason to believe that this complexity of actions, strategies and motivations isn't going to appear in a company's involvement in industry associations. Sorry for the length of this reply. However, it's clear that there are a great many concerns behind your questions and I've tried to reach those concerns. I hope this response has been useful to you. Regards, Michael LoBue KRA Secretariat Staff --end KRA response-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0 iQA/AwUBNlWtuJBN/qMowCmvEQI6WACgv0CZt3KmzptfQxO/2FJ2aqAA/v8An1C6 +q4Uh8H0LuwMKpou5cVS14v6 =ssZt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From searchmaster80 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 22 23:55:53 1998 From: searchmaster80 at hotmail.com (searchmaster80 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:55:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5000+ URL Submissions to Search Engines/Directories - $99 !!- *AD* Message-ID: <199811230755.XAA28163@toad.com> ========================================================== This is a one time mailing. You will be automatically removed from this list. ========================================================== Effective web site promotion is an essential part of just about any successful Internet marketing program. Search engine submission is the most effective and inexpensive way to advertise your web site on the Internet. 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The staff at Mall-Cartay.com From ericm at lne.com Sun Nov 22 09:57:50 1998 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 01:57:50 +0800 Subject: Question about general patents In-Reply-To: <003401be161a$2b4a4140$c9e431ce@vort.nis.za> Message-ID: <199811221728.JAA09524@slack.lne.com> Vortexia writes: > > I was wondering... what is the current law in the United States about > patenting of software programs, and does anyone know where I can find out if > there are any standard international laws about the patenting of software. You can't patent a computer program under US patent law either. You can patent an algorithim or a method however. -- Eric Murray N*Able Technologies www.nabletech.com (email: ericm at the sites lne.com or nabletech.com) PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From landon at best.com Sun Nov 22 09:58:44 1998 From: landon at best.com (landon dyer) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 01:58:44 +0800 Subject: Hey, what does he know? In-Reply-To: <000101be1631$ca7052c0$7fa795cd@big-boy.teletactics.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981122084708.00a283f0@shell9.ba.best.com> At 08:03 AM 11/22/98, you wrote: >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2168153,00.html well, no matter wh'appens, microsoft is going to come out of this smelling like a rose >"By the time the government's case is done, who knows how the industry will >look?" he said. "And furthermore, it could open the door to more government >regulation of the technology industry overall." putting on my favorite cryptoparanoia hat, over the next five years: o MS gets what it wants -- more regulation, forcing it to stop selling OSs with computers. instead, if you by an MS OS, you'll rent it annually. ["please, janet, don't throw me in that briar patch!"] to do this, MS has to get intel to put crypto hooks in the wintel architecture; microcode burned-in at the chip fab that prevents MS operating systems from running on other h/w o intel gets what it wants: no clones. if you want to run linux on your AMD K-10, feel free. if AMD wants to get in the game, they'll have to visit ft. meade o the government gets what it wants, because the crypto hooks in the wintel architecture allow KRAP to proceed without any pesky legislation -- just behind-doors agreements with MS and intel a more cynical person than me might note that sun's "java OS" that would run anywhere would be a *lot* more difficult to suborn at the chip level i haven't figured out how the communications infrastructure is going to be noodled. maybe it doesn't have to be. expect ipsec to die a long, slow death -- a delaying tactic, the best kind for the feds, because it prevents any sucessors from getting up a head of steam. [i don't know beans about the current status of ipsec] long about 2020 or so it'll be a federal offense to own an EPROM burner, a processor with re-flashed microcode, an unlicensed logic analyzer, or a copy of linux... :-) [stay tuned for a short story about the freedom fighters of 2025, hacking secure communications on copies of the last architectures known not to be compromised ("daddy, what's a PDP-10?"), running ITS on souped-up gigahertz pocket portables, getting packets through on covert channels involving the coat-tails of the (now ubiquitous) KRAP session key negotiations...] -landon [re-lurking] From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 22 10:29:51 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 02:29:51 +0800 Subject: Oh, a warning about playing with glass & charge.... In-Reply-To: <199811212138.PAA16195@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 1:38 PM -0800 11/21/98, Jim Choate wrote: >If you do decide to play with charges stored on glass plates wear eye >protection because every once in a while the mechanical stress is more than >the glass can take and it will shatter. > And when you do your "...and then take away one of the copper plates" experiment, you'll find that force is needed. Force times distance is energy. The energy to pull one of the plates away equals the 0.5CV^2 energy no longer stored in the capacitor. The energy stored is not stored either on the plate or on the insulator. It is in the electric field. A free-standing single conductor can of course store a charge. And can of course have an electric field. Frankly, Jim, you no doubt have a lot of practical experience building Tesla coils, Van de Graf generators, whatever. But you also have what can only be described as "crankish" notions about how electromagnetism works (pace last week's discussion of charges inside conductors, a la Gauss), about prime numbers, and so on. --Tim May "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, just the way the President did." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 22 11:46:43 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 03:46:43 +0800 Subject: Oh, a warning about playing with glass & charge.... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811221916.NAA18764@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:05:41 -0800 > From: Tim May > Subject: Re: Oh, a warning about playing with glass & charge.... > And when you do your "...and then take away one of the copper plates" > experiment, you'll find that force is needed. Force times distance is > energy. The energy to pull one of the plates away equals the 0.5CV^2 energy > no longer stored in the capacitor. This is true ONLY if the dielectric doesn't touch either plate and is simply used to increase the storage capability (via Gauss' Law) of the capacitor over an air gap type of the same physical structure. The reason you have this force is the induced charge on the surface of the dielectric and the electrostatic attraction this causes with the charge on the plate. If the plate ACTUALY TOUCHES there is NO INDUCED CHARGE via Gauss's Law, it's a REAL charge stored on the surface of the insulating dielectric and the plate remains NEUTRALY charged. Why is there no induced charged? Because as you place charge on the conducting plate it induces a charge via Gauss' Law on the dielctric. Since the metal has outer orbital electrons available (which an insulator doesn't) the charge in the plate gets transported to the surface of the insulator and bonds there (remember unlike charges attract) with the induced charge. Why does the charge storage increase because of the dielectric? The electrical moment of the atoms is greater than that of the air. This is another reason the charge once deposited on the dielectric surface will stay there when the plate is removed. If you go back and look at the examples in your physics books that your basing your position on you'll find that in EVERY case there is an air gap between the plates and the dielectric. Remove the air gap and the behaviour of the charge and hence it's explanation changes accordingly. > The energy stored is not stored either on the plate or on the insulator. It > is in the electric field. Q: Where does the electric field come from Tim? A: The charges (ie electrons and protons) that are sitting on the surface of the dielectric (where the di- comes from). The electric field strength is a measure of the wavelength of the photons those two contrary sets of particles are bouncing back and forth between themselves. Q: Explain why the charge sitting on the surface of that dielectric will stay on the metal plate when the metal plate is removed. The metal plate is a conductor so as it is removed it effectively carries the charge of the part of the dielectric that it still retains contact with. Why would that e- choose to move TOWARD a ne- charge when it's sitting there with an opposite charge already in a minimum energy configuration? A: It won't. To do so violates the minimal energy requirements of the system as well as the standard behaviour of charges (ie like repel, opposite attract). Another experiment.... Try removing the metal foil when there is a charge and when there isn't. You won't find an appreciable difference. As to the energy required to remove the foil, yes force times distance is energy and it's the energy requisite to overcome the inertia of the metal foil. There is also a small additional force caused by Gauss' Law because the the distance between the e- (for example) stored on the dielectric and the metal plate will form a 'virtual' charge on the surface of the plate. However, since the plate itself is neutral (by definition) there will be a contrary charge on the opposite side. Hence, you won't loose a single coulomb of charge to the metal plate. You can check this by using either an electronic charge meter (1-800-OMEGA if you're interested) or you can use a gold leaf electrometer. If the charge varies as Tim claims then the angle between the leaves should change (ie get smaller). It won't. As to the force, the maximal force will occur when the plate is removed as a single piece perpendicular to the surface of the dielectric. If you roll or peel it off it will for all intents and purposes come free effortlessy because you won't have to fight the electrostatic force. -------------------------------------- < Cu + ------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- < Cu - ------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- < Cu + ------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- < Cu - NOTE: there is NO air gap between the glass and the Cu sheeting. I use normal old cinter blocks to press them together as tightly as I can. Another experinment: Build the stack as shown above and remove each later one at at time with and without charge. Note the behaviour of the metal plate. It will tend to go with the glass plate that is being removed. Because of induced charges via Gauss' Law the foil will tend to go with the glass plate as it's removed. --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Cu + --------------------------------------------- As the top plate is removed the air gap will force a virtual charge to build up on the surface of the foil. As a consequence an opposite and equal charge will build up on the other side of the foil and it will be + and in opposition to the + charge already sitting on the bottem glass plate. The induced charge on the top of the Cu will be - and will be attracted to the + charge on the bottem of the top plate. This of course assumes you're using very thin foil. If it's very thick at all you won't see this because of gravity. I tend to use very heavy foil so that I don't get shocks from these various induced fields when I'm handling the plates. Be sure to use heavy rubber gloves. Rubbermaid kitchen gloves intended for industrial washing are sufficient unless you're going to use a high voltage and charge. Anybody who wants to understand the theory (despite Tim's claims to the contrary) is welcome to check out: Physics Jay Orear ISBN 0-02-389460-1 Chpt. 16, Electrostatics pp. 308 - 338 in particular, pp. 327, 16-6 Dielectrics ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Sun Nov 22 14:05:56 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 06:05:56 +0800 Subject: Hey, what does he know? Message-ID: <199811222134.WAA14380@replay.com> At 09:23 AM 11/22/98 -0800, landon dyer wrote: >> long about 2020 or so it'll be a federal offense to own an EPROM >burner, a processor with re-flashed microcode, an unlicensed logic >analyzer, or a copy of linux... :-) A CPLD, a compiler, a computer-controlled radio, a soldering iron... :-( From holist at mail.matav.hu Sun Nov 22 14:27:11 1998 From: holist at mail.matav.hu (holist) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 06:27:11 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811222154.NAA25646@toad.com> I'm sorry if this is gnawing at old bones for you, but I recently heard from a rather paranoid, anonymous source here in Hungay that PGP was compromised, Zimmermann sold out to the Feds, all versions except possibly early DOS versions of PGP have back doors in them. He is also claiming that the CIA have already provided the backdoor-key to PGP 5.0 to the Hungarian Secret Services. Is he being too paranoid, or what? The reason I am asking cypherpunks, which I realise is not really a list dedicated to PGP, about them, is that their credentials to my mind would be sufficient to discredit. I have heard this rumour in sufficiently bogus intellectual contexts before (Cyberconf8, if that rings a bell to anyone - wouldn't blame you if it didn't) where it seemed blatantly obvious that it was entirely unfounded, as the people who were spreading it could not recognise code if they saw it, and seemed only an attempt to appear to be in the know. This source, however, seems different. Can I have some reassurance, please? And could you possibly suggest how someone unable to check the code themselves could go about authenticating a version of PGP? It is fated to become a rather important issue here soon. thank you holist From riburr at shentel.net Sun Nov 22 14:54:00 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 06:54:00 +0800 Subject: Hey, what does he know? In-Reply-To: <199811222134.WAA14380@replay.com> Message-ID: <36589027.723BEA18@shentel.net> Anonymous wrote: > At 09:23 AM 11/22/98 -0800, landon dyer wrote: > > >> long about 2020 or so it'll be a federal offense to own an EPROM > >burner, a processor with re-flashed microcode, an unlicensed logic > >analyzer, or a copy of linux... :-) > > A CPLD, a compiler, a computer-controlled radio, a soldering iron... :-( Uncrippled DNA ~x~ From whgiii at openpgp.net Sun Nov 22 15:42:51 1998 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:42:51 +0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <199811222154.NAA25646@toad.com> Message-ID: <199811222216.RAA002.10@whgiii> In <199811222154.NAA25646 at toad.com>, on 11/22/98 at 01:54 PM, holist said: >I'm sorry if this is gnawing at old bones for you, but I recently heard >from a rather paranoid, anonymous source here in Hungay that PGP was >compromised, Zimmermann sold out to the Feds, all versions except >possibly early DOS versions of PGP have back doors in them. >He is also claiming that the CIA have already provided the backdoor-key >to PGP 5.0 to the Hungarian Secret Services. Is he being too paranoid, or >what? >The reason I am asking cypherpunks, which I realise is not really a list >dedicated to PGP, about them, is that their credentials to my mind would >be sufficient to discredit. I have heard this rumour in sufficiently >bogus intellectual contexts before (Cyberconf8, if that rings a bell to >anyone - >wouldn't blame you if it didn't) where it seemed blatantly obvious that >it was entirely unfounded, as the people who were spreading it could not >recognise code if they saw it, and seemed only an attempt to appear to be >in the know. This source, however, seems different. >Can I have some reassurance, please? And could you possibly suggest how >someone unable to check the code themselves could go about authenticating >a version of PGP? It is fated to become a rather important issue here >soon. This is FUD. Goto: http://www.pgpi.com Download the source code to the version of PGP you want to run and compile it yourself. You are free to examine the code and insure that there are no "backdoors" in it. This is the advantage of PGP over the various S/MIME products on the market. PGP source code is available for peer review, Netscape, Microsoft, (add your S/MIME vendor here) is not. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From landon at best.com Sun Nov 22 15:46:56 1998 From: landon at best.com (landon dyer) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:46:56 +0800 Subject: Hey, what does he know? In-Reply-To: <199811222134.WAA14380@replay.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981122145914.00ad4a30@shell9.ba.best.com> At 05:28 PM 11/22/98 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Anonymous wrote: > >> At 09:23 AM 11/22/98 -0800, landon dyer wrote: >> >> >> long about 2020 or so it'll be a federal offense to own an EPROM >> >burner, a processor with re-flashed microcode, an unlicensed logic >> >analyzer, or a copy of linux... :-) >> >> A CPLD, a compiler, a computer-controlled radio, a soldering iron... :-( > >Uncrippled DNA ~x~ oh, yes. "for the children..." now it all makes sense :-) -landon ''^`` ('O-O') +--------------------oooO--(_)--Oooo---- -- - - - | landon dyer ooo0 Some days it's just not worth | landon at best.com ( ( ) Oooo. gnawing through the straps... +----------------------\ (----( ) )------ --- -- - - - \_) ) / (_/ From schear at lvcm.com Sun Nov 22 17:06:46 1998 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:06:46 +0800 Subject: Free Email as Anonymous Remailer Re: NPR is at it again... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981114002632.007caa30@idiom.com> Message-ID: >On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: > >> At 11:47 PM 11/11/98 +0100, Lucky Green wrote: >> >On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Bill Stewart wrote: >> >> An interesting project would be a free low-volume anonymizer cgi for >>Apache, >> >> given the large number of current users and the much larger number >> >> of people who will run web servers once they have cable modems. >> >How do you do chaining with a cgi? >> >> Looks easy enough to do, if a bit ugly, where "ugly" is somewhat >>equivalent to >> "build yet another local proxy widget to hide the gory details", >> though it's not really much uglier than doing a good anonymizer, >> and getting details like cookies and Java/script right are harder. >> Could something like Hot Lava's proxy http://www.hotlava.com/software/ be a good starting point? --Steve From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 22 19:57:42 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:42 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] Message-ID: <199811230327.VAA20072@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://lwn.net/1998/1119/Trojan.html > THE TROJAN HORSE > > > Bruce Perens > > > There's a problem that could very badly effect the public perception > of Linux and Open Source. I want people to think about this, and > hopefully "head it off at the pass" before it happens. > > Perhaps it's already on your system today: a trojan-horse program. It > might be a game, or more likely a system utility. It's author uploaded > it to an FTP archive, where it was then picked up by your favorite > Linux distribution, who wrote it onto the CD-ROM that you bought. It > works just fine, but hidden away in the program is a special feature: > a secret back-door past your system's security. > > Perhaps the author of this attack is tired of hearing about what great > hackers we are, and wants to take us down a notch. He's patient - he > will wait until his program is distributed to tens of thousands of > Linux systems before he says a word. But say is what he'll do - he's > not really interested in breaking into your system. What he wants is > the publicity, bad publicity for us, and lots of it. We've left the > gates open for this trojan horse. Let's talk about how to close them, > and hope we have enough time to solve this problem before our > reputation is hurt. [mnoga tekct oodalyaty] ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 22 20:47:21 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:47:21 +0800 Subject: Wired: AOL selling E-Stamps Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981122223921.00c0f550@idiom.com> http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/16374.html AOL's E-Stamp of Approval Wired News Report 12:20 p.m. 19.Nov.98.PST Is it time for stamp collectors to go online? America Online (AOL) and E-Stamp, an online postage firm, said on Thursday they will make Internet postage service available to customers of AOL, CompuServe, AOL.COM, and AOL's Digital City. AOL and E-Stamp's service will allow customers to securely purchase postage online and print "digital stamps" on envelopes, labels, or documents using their personal computer and a standard printer. Customers must first install E-Stamp software. They can then buy postage by credit card, electronic fund transfer, or check. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From rmiles at Generation.NET Sun Nov 22 21:08:13 1998 From: rmiles at Generation.NET (Vlad Stesin) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:08:13 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: <199811230327.VAA20072@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: I don't quite understand the logic behind this. The fact that the program's source is available is itself a proof that there are no backdoors. Anyone can read the source code and make sure it's OK. However, this argument does hold against non-OSS. It can even be used to promote Linux (and other free open-source operating systems), since someone could distribute some win32 trojans on download.com, tucows.com and others. Regards, -- Vlad Stesin vstesin at cs.mcgill.ca On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > X-within-URL: http://lwn.net/1998/1119/Trojan.html > > > THE TROJAN HORSE > > > > > > Bruce Perens > > > > > > There's a problem that could very badly effect the public perception > > of Linux and Open Source. I want people to think about this, and > > hopefully "head it off at the pass" before it happens. > > > > Perhaps it's already on your system today: a trojan-horse program. It > > might be a game, or more likely a system utility. It's author uploaded > > it to an FTP archive, where it was then picked up by your favorite > > Linux distribution, who wrote it onto the CD-ROM that you bought. It > > works just fine, but hidden away in the program is a special feature: > > a secret back-door past your system's security. > > > > Perhaps the author of this attack is tired of hearing about what great > > hackers we are, and wants to take us down a notch. He's patient - he > > will wait until his program is distributed to tens of thousands of > > Linux systems before he says a word. But say is what he'll do - he's > > not really interested in breaking into your system. What he wants is > > the publicity, bad publicity for us, and lots of it. We've left the > > gates open for this trojan horse. Let's talk about how to close them, > > and hope we have enough time to solve this problem before our > > reputation is hurt. > > [mnoga tekct oodalyaty] > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Technology cannot make us other than what we are. > > James P. Hogan > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 22 22:26:08 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:26:08 +0800 Subject: PGP compromised? In-Reply-To: <199811222154.NAA25646@toad.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981123002423.00c18210@idiom.com> At 01:54 PM 11/22/98 -0800, holist wrote: >I'm sorry if this is gnawing at old bones for you, but I recently heard from >a rather paranoid, anonymous source here in Hungay that PGP was compromised, >Zimmermann sold out to the Feds, all versions except possibly early DOS >versions of PGP have back doors in them. >He is also claiming that the CIA have already provided the backdoor-key to >PGP 5.0 to the Hungarian Secret Services. Is he being too paranoid, or what? Pure disinformation. It does have a few locally-customized twists to it. As another poster said, you can get the source from www.pgpi.com, check it out yourself, and compile it yourself. There are some versions that have features allowing you to encrypt data to multiple recipients, and some versions allow you to set this with one or more recipients as the default (e.g. yourself, or your corporate security officer.) But you do not need to set this. There are also some design bugs in the early DOS versions that make them weaker than the later DOS versions or the newer versions, so you don't want to use anything before 2.5 anyway. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 22 22:28:33 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:28:33 +0800 Subject: update.403 (fwd) Message-ID: <199811230600.AAA20501@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:40:29 -0500 (EST) > From: physnews at aip.org (AIP listserver) > Subject: update.403 > CLUSTERING AND COLLAPSE IN GRANULAR MATERIAL. > DOES CHAOS AFFECT THE COURSE OF AN ARMS RACE? > Yes, it may, particularly when great disparities exist between two > nations' economies (as is the case with the US and Iraq), according > to a new mathematical model developed by researchers in Japan > (Mitsuo Kono, Chuo University, kono at fps.chuo-u.ac.jp, 011-81- > 426-74-4161). In an attempt to mathematically model the feedback > between two adversarial nations as each builds up arms stocks, > British scientist Lewis F. Richardson published in 1949 a well- > known set of equations with variables describing such things as a > nation's military spending levels and parameters quantifying factors > such as a nation's internal pressure against military spending. This > model suffered from shortcomings, most notably that its linear > equations provided all too predictable results; critics noted that > many arms races spiral unpredictably out of control. In the > Japanese researchers' model a nation's reaction to an enemy's > weapons buildup is not automatically to build more weapons but is > instead a function of the difference in weapons and military > spending between two nations. This approach leads to more > realistic nonlinear differential equations which quantify concepts > normally unknown to physics, concepts such as fear, threat, > grievance, and fatigue. Their model shows an arms race can > progress in a mathematically chaotic fashion when the economic > situation of the two countries is different, but is more predictable > when the economies are more comparable (Tomochi and Kono in > the journal Chaos, December 1998.) > CORRECTION. A typo affecting a single letter can completely > reverse the meaning of a sentence. Thus in Update 402 in the > sentence "It is not thought that physics does differentiate between > the forward or backward movement of time," "not" should be > changed to "now." ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From BSB009 at webmail.bellsouth.com Mon Nov 23 14:39:54 1998 From: BSB009 at webmail.bellsouth.com (BSB009 at webmail.bellsouth.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:39:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Book: "Brothers Beware: Games Black Women Play" Message-ID: Sisters are saying: "Burn This Book" Brothers are saying: "Free at Last!" You decide . . . Call Today To Order This Book - (800) 830-2047 It will make a great Christmas Gift Brothers Beware: Games Black Women Play by A. Marshall ISBN:0-9658299-3-6 Price: $12.00 $3 Shipping - COD Charges are FREE for a limited time. ____________________________ Brothers Beware: Games Black Women Play is a book that pulls no punches when it details the many tricks and manipulative games for which black women are notorious. This book is an honest, no holds barred, uncensored discussion about dating in the African American community. The number of eligible black men is constantly decreasing. Therefore, black women are doing whatever is necessary to find and keep a good black man. Many of her secrets are exposed in this book. The author interviewed several black women who revealed many of the techniques used by Sisters to get what they want, and who they want, any time they want. These women were especially helpful on the hilarious chapter entitled: "Games Women Play On Each Other." The author had no need whatsoever to embellish - The TRUTH was definitely sensational enough. ____________________________ Chapters "Was She Born This Way?" "What He Has Have To Be With Her" "What Have You Done For Me Lately?" "Lies Women Tell Men" "She's Got The Power" "The Dating Game" "The Sympathy Game" "The Suicide Game" "Honey, I'm Pregnant" "She Loves Me . . . She Loves Me Not" "Games Church Women Play" "Young Women and Old Fools" "Games Women Play on Each Other" "Was It Really Worth It?" _______________________________ Ordering Information Brothers Beware: Games Black Women Play ISBN:0-9658299-3-6 Price: $12.00 $3.00 Shipping - COD Charges are free for a limited time. Wholesale Discounts Available ______________________________ Order by Phone 800-830-2047 - 24 hrs From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 22 22:47:33 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:47:33 +0800 Subject: [spam 03.92/10.00 -pobox] Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - a question about prime sums of odd numbers... In-Reply-To: <199811190522.XAA01164@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981123012140.00bab940@idiom.com> At 12:20 AM 11/19/98 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote: >> Is there any work on whether odd numbers can always be represented as the >> sum of primes? > >Goldbach originally suggested that all numbers greater than two could be >expressed as the sum of three primes, if one tossed in 1 as a prime >number. Euler pointed out that this was equivalent to even numbers >greater than two being expressed as the sum of two primes. > >This seemed a somewhat cleaner formulation, and it was adopted. well, you can express any odd number >= 7 as the sum of 3 + an even number, so if Goldbach's conjecture is true, then three primes are enough for the odd natural numbers except 1, which is a special case, and 3 and 5 which are prime anyway. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From marketnewstoday11_24_98iilli at worldnet.att.net Mon Nov 23 15:29:03 1998 From: marketnewstoday11_24_98iilli at worldnet.att.net (marketnewstoday11_24_98iilli at worldnet.att.net) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:29:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! . Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T Price: 3 1/2 ($3.50/share) QNET is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNET has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNET's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNET is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quicken.excite.com/investments/quotes From marketnewstoday11_24_98iilli at worldnet.att.net Mon Nov 23 15:29:03 1998 From: marketnewstoday11_24_98iilli at worldnet.att.net (marketnewstoday11_24_98iilli at worldnet.att.net) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:29:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: "SIZZLER" INTERNET STOCK! . Message-ID: <> Company: Quest Net Corp. Symbol: Q N E T Price: 3 1/2 ($3.50/share) QNET is a provider of global Internet and Intranet digital networking solutions. QNET has strategic alliances with MCI WorldCom, BellSouth Corp. and PSINet, among others. QNET's business model, according to independent analysts, is projected for unprecedented exponential growth. QNET is rated an immediate and "STRONG BUY". For more information go to: http://quicken.excite.com/investments/quotes From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 23 04:44:08 1998 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:44:08 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199811222154.NAA25646@toad.com> Message-ID: <19981123115415.A26238@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Sun, Nov 22, 1998 at 01:54:42PM -0800, holist wrote: > I'm sorry if this is gnawing at old bones for you, but I recently heard from > a rather paranoid, anonymous source here in Hungay that PGP was compromised, > Zimmermann sold out to the Feds, all versions except possibly early DOS > versions of PGP have back doors in them. This is probably bullshit since the source is available to open view... However, given that few have the technical skills to audit this source I wonder how easy it would be to insert a backdoor and what form it would take? -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk http://www.pineal.com/ substitute "damn" every time you're inclined to write "very"; your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. -- mark twain From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 23 05:25:15 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:25:15 +0800 Subject: Reptilian Nazi $oftware Message-ID: <199811231300.OAA23807@replay.com> While playing Spin the Whiskey Bottle with my dog, an entirely accidental motion caused a search engine to barf this up: http://www.letr.com/swat.html "Here's the ultimate 'SWAT' program - from intelligence gathering to incident command - with add on modules for tracking , training and performance evaluations ! ... "Complete detailed information on suspect description and history Information includes: o Religious and cultural background o political affiliations o psychological and medical disorders o likes and dislikes o family members o close relationships o employer and co-workers o motivational factors "Designed by Sergeant Gary Rovarino LASD SWAT Team Leader" (is _anyone_ taking names???) I _thought_ I also saw, but can't be sure: "We get almost as high writing and selling this software as our users do kicking in doors and shooting greasers in the back!" - Trembley Nerdwater, programmer [A Deep Gargling Source To Be Named Later reveals that when they get the foreign language versions of this software working, sales to Third World Nazi ButtFucktatorships should almost rival sales to police forces in U.S. and European Nazi ButtFucktatorships.] Optional modules include: o Instant Download From Deathlist Computer For those slow nights when the squad is in danger of losing its edge. Includes Random Hit Selector, Semiautomatic Route Selector, and optional route selection by pizza and titty bar locations. o Family Member and Associates Deathlist Upload For tidying up those loose ends. New data found on or near the perp's body can be entered in the field. o Special OKC Witness List For units with assigned responsibility for keeping the lid on _that_ one! Includes on line link to DOJ, FBI, ATF and specially assigned judges for authorization of special field actions against witnesses who have suddenly recovered their memories, gotten religion, have been reading unauthorized radical literature such as the U.S. "Constitution." Remember our motto, "Loose Lips Can Always Be Stapled Together." o Waco Tutorial Learn from the masters! No prisoners, no survivors! No bad press! Includes tips on obscuring causes of death by agglutinating bodies together! Confound medical examiners by combining pieces of perps to make remains that have been shot, gassed, burned, asphyxiated, strangled, decapitated, disemboweled, etc.! o Portable Press Dossier Be able to pull up the files of inquisitive reporters in real time! Get instant and unprecedented cooperation! Buy now and get testosterone supplements* at no additional charge! You must provide your own adrenalin. Remember! The rush is not on the radio -- it's going through the door! *suppositories only ButtFuckMonger From fod at brd.ie Mon Nov 23 05:49:11 1998 From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:49:11 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <36595F29.C39B997A@brd.ie> Vlad Stesin wrote: > I don't quite understand the logic behind this. The fact that the > program's source is available is itself a proof that there are no > backdoors. Anyone can read the source code and make sure it's OK. Anyone can, but does anyone? Also be aware that most people don't compile from source--it would be easy to doctor the source, compile a binary, and ship the trojan binary alongside the unmodified source. > However, this argument does hold against non-OSS. Yes it does, but not quite in the same way. For example, I believe that in days of yore some attackers managed to insert a back door into some DEC OS by breaking into the coding environment (I don't recall the details, does anyone else?). So in other words, not only _could_ this happen with non-OSS, it _has_ happened, and no doubt it happens reasonably often. In short, this is a real problem, but it seems to be that the likes of Linux ought to be able to leverage its decentralised and parallel development model to address it in a more comprehensive manner than any closed centralised model could ever hope to achieve. "Many eyes" _should_ make for defence in depth against this--but it does look like some process is needed, and the Linux folk will need some kind of argument to convince people that it works. Perhaps a start would be for individuals to essentially certify software that they had personally checked, offering repositories with detached signatures for specific versions of software compiled in a certain way. Software that hadn't yet been certified or which didn't match sufficient independent signatures could then be referred to a human for checking, and if it was OK then that version of the software could also be signed. This would also serve as a highly visible "yes, we have checked this for back doors" statement..."and here are 1,000s of signatures to prove it" :) Cheers, Frank O'Dwyer. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 23 09:11:07 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:11:07 +0800 Subject: Issues of crypto, politics, & chaos [sciencedaily.com] Message-ID: <199811231622.KAA21494@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/order_chaos.htm > Posted 10/8/98 > Encryption Advance For Secure Global Communications > Scientists at the Department of Energy's Los Alamos National > Laboratory have achieved a significant advance in demonstrating the > viability of an unbreakable encryption scheme for transmitting secure > communications to and from satellites. > > Posted 9/9/98 > Mathematicians Prove That Group Decisions Can Be Impossible To Predict > For several years, some political scientists and others have argued > that group decisions such as elections are impossible to > anticipate-even if the preferences of the voters are well established > and the decision-making rules are set. Now there's a mathematical > proof to back that proposition. > > Posted 9/4/98 > Chaos-Based System That "Evolves" Answers May Be Alternative To > Current Computers > A revolutionary new computing technique that uses a network of chaotic > elements to "evolve" its answers could provide an alternative to the > digital computing systems widely used today. Described for the first > time in the September 7 issue of Physical Review Letters this > "dynamics-based computation" may be well suited for optical computing > using ultra-fast chaotic lasers and computing with silicon/neural > tissue hybrid circuitry. [text deleted] ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From minow at pobox.com Mon Nov 23 10:39:43 1998 From: minow at pobox.com (Martin Minow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:39:43 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Frank O'Dwyer opines: > >Yes it does, but not quite in the same way. For example, I believe that >in days of yore some attackers managed to insert a back door into some >DEC OS by breaking into the coding environment (I don't recall the >details, does anyone else?). describes how the inventors of Unix inserted a backdoor into the Unix login program. It's well worth reading. However, there is no indication that this trojan horse ever shipped to customers. >So in other words, not only _could_ this >happen with non-OSS, it _has_ happened, and no doubt it happens >reasonably often. I doubt it. Martin Minow minow at pobox.com From jim.burnes at ssds.com Mon Nov 23 10:43:29 1998 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes - Denver) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:43:29 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: <36595F29.C39B997A@brd.ie> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Frank O'Dwyer wrote: > > Vlad Stesin wrote: > > I don't quite understand the logic behind this. The fact that the > > program's source is available is itself a proof that there are no > > backdoors. Anyone can read the source code and make sure it's OK. > > Anyone can, but does anyone? Also be aware that most people don't > compile from source--it would be easy to doctor the source, compile a > binary, and ship the trojan binary alongside the unmodified source. > True enough. Groups that produce software that play a critical role in security almost always sign the binaries. > Yes it does, but not quite in the same way. For example, I believe that > in days of yore some attackers managed to insert a back door into some > DEC OS by breaking into the coding environment (I don't recall the > details, does anyone else?). Break into the coding environment? Does that mean they broke into the VMS development shop? > In short, this is a real problem, but it seems to be that the likes of > Linux ought to be able to leverage its decentralised and parallel > development model to address it in a more comprehensive manner than any > closed centralised model could ever hope to achieve. "Many eyes" > _should_ make for defence in depth against this--but it does look like > some process is needed, and the Linux folk will need some kind of > argument to convince people that it works. Already proven. The emergent behavior of the Linux development model does not need centralized process to coordinate it. People who had access to the source and were aware of the teardrop attack hacked a patch to it almost immediately. The patch was widely available the next day. How long did it take for microsoft? jim From stuffed at stuffed.net Tue Nov 24 03:08:05 1998 From: stuffed at stuffed.net (STUFFED TUE NOV 24) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:08:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: STUFFED NOW HAS LINKS TO 100S MORE PHOTOS! Message-ID: <19981124081000.4856.qmail@eureka.abc-web.com> CHECK OUT ALL THE NEW STUFF IN STUFFED! + DREAM GIRLS + BRIEN'S WORLD XXX + CHERRY BUSTER'S FREE XXX + JACK'S HOUSE OF SLUTS + MAIDENJUICE + WACK IT OFF + THE XXX PLACE + THE NUDE FILES + 2 PERVERSE 4 U + NUDE PICS + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 23 11:24:49 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:24:49 +0800 Subject: how to insert plausibly deniable back-doors (Re: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News]) In-Reply-To: <36595F29.C39B997A@brd.ie> Message-ID: <199811231837.SAA14774@server.eternity.org> I reckon an easy and plausibly deniable way to insert a backdoor is to purposefully make the software vulnerable to buffer overflow (the good old unchecked gets(3) type of bug, of which a new one is found weekly in sendmail). Then send the target an encrypted spam or whatever which their program decrypts, and in the process exploits the buffer overflow and allows you to execute arbitrary code, which you use to patch the binary, or install a keyboard sniffer or whatever. Works better with DOS/windows -- with no protection -- you could format the disk if you wanted. unix a bit more tricky, but doable nonetheless -- enough OS security vulnerabilities to send along a program to obtain root, and then patch the binary. Nice and deniable too, if someone finds the vulnerability, you go `whoops!' and remove it. I spent a few hours examining pgp263i for buffer overflow opportunities, but found no exploitable opportunities in that quick search. Areas where things almost work from offerflow is fixed size buffer for storage of -----BEGIN BLAH----- lines, and I did wonder about the decompression code also -- quite hairy, and undefined behaviour may just be obtainable with the right carefully corrupted message sent in. This exercise ought to be done on pgp5.x and 6.x. I have spent some time looking at the code in general -- yuck -- OO overdone, very hard to read due to the many many levels of inheritence and so on, you really need to run it under a debugger to even figure out what would happen half the time. I think I preferred pgp263 for readability and clarity. Werner Koch's GNUPG gets an A+ for coding clarity also -- way better than either pgp2.x and pgp5.x. Adam From fod at brd.ie Mon Nov 23 11:55:39 1998 From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:55:39 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3659B025.756B888A@brd.ie> Martin Minow wrote: > Frank O'Dwyer opines: > > > >Yes it does, but not quite in the same way. For example, I believe that > >in days of yore some attackers managed to insert a back door into some > >DEC OS by breaking into the coding environment (I don't recall the > >details, does anyone else?). > > describes how the inventors > of Unix inserted a backdoor into the Unix login program. It's well > worth reading. However, there is no indication that this trojan > horse ever shipped to customers. No, that is a different incident. These were external attackers who managed to patch the source, and as far as I know it did ship. Could be an urban myth I guess, but it's clearly a plausible attack. > >So in other words, not only _could_ this > >happen with non-OSS, it _has_ happened, and no doubt it happens > >reasonably often. > > I doubt it. OK, "reasonably often" is overstating it, perhaps :) Cheers, Frank O'Dwyer. From fod at brd.ie Mon Nov 23 11:59:32 1998 From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:59:32 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3659B24C.2E121981@brd.ie> Jim Burnes - Denver wrote: > Already proven. The emergent behavior of the Linux development model > does not need centralized process to coordinate it. People who had > access to the source and were aware of the teardrop attack hacked a > patch to it almost immediately. The patch was widely available the > next day. How long did it take for microsoft? Agreed, but that's a different issue. Here we're talking about deliberately inserted back doors. Those can get extremely nasty, and may be unpatchable. Examples include "data kidnap" (encrypting the target's information in situ and demanding a ransom for the decryption key), and "data cancer" (slow corruption of the target's information, ensuring that the backups are also corrupted). Quickly patching the software that delivers those attacks isn't anough--you need a defence against it being introduced and activated in the first place. I haven't heard of any real examples of such attacks, but that's not especially comforting. Cheers, Frank O'Dwyer. From jim at acm.org Mon Nov 23 13:37:43 1998 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 05:37:43 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] Message-ID: <3659C59C.9979534D@acm.org> Frank O'Dwyer writes: > Here we're talking about > deliberately inserted back doors. Those can get extremely nasty, and may > be unpatchable. Examples include "data kidnap" (encrypting the target's > information in situ and demanding a ransom for the decryption key), and > "data cancer" (slow corruption of the target's information, ensuring > that the backups are also corrupted). ... I haven't heard of any real > examples of such attacks, but that's not especially comforting. The "data kidnap" scenario was tried with the "PC CYBORG (AIDS) virus" (actually a Trojan) scare of 1989, where a disk with a database application was sent to a number of recipients. I think it scrambled the FAT. It gave a post office box in Panama for the ransom payments. -- Jim Gillogly Highday, 3 Foreyule S.R. 1998, 20:23 12.19.5.12.16, 8 Cib 9 Ceh, Fourth Lord of Night From radinfo at real.com Mon Nov 23 14:17:47 1998 From: radinfo at real.com (radinfo at real.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:17:47 +0800 Subject: RealSystem G2 Ships Message-ID: <199811232054.MAA10652@fmaila1.real-net.net> TO REAL DEVELOPER PROGRAM MEMBERS RealSystem G2, the next generation media delivery system is complete and ready for purchase and production deployment! Built from a completely new codebase, RealSystem G2 is the result of 2 years of software development and engineering breakthroughs. RealSystem G2 incorporates revolutionary advances, like SureStream, RealVideo G2 (including compelling new video technology from Intel Corporation), RealAudio G2 and SMIL support. 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Kristi Larsen Real Developer Program RealNetworks, Inc. Visit the Devzone Today! http://www.real.com/devzone -----Feature Detail------- RealSystem G2 is a complete, modular, open standards-based, cross-platform software media system, with full support for RTSP and SMIL. Some of the most exciting features of RealSystem G2 include: + SureStream, a breakthrough technology that dynamically monitors and adjusts throughput up or down based on network capacity. + RealAudio G2 which delivers 80% greater frequency response and superior packet loss resilience. + RealVideo G2, incorporating Intel Streaming Web Video technology, delivering 30 frames per second support. + Support for SMIL and advanced streaming media datatypes, RealText, RealPix, and RealFlash allowing you to create rich multimedia presentations. + The ability to serve native datatypes like AU, MPEG, AIFF, WAV, VIV and more. + An extensible, Standards-based, open architecture, with support for SMIL, RTSP, and IP Multicast. + Advanced Networking, featuring Caching support, Splitting, Firewall support, and Load Balancing. --------------------------------------------- For information about this e-mail including how to subscribe or unsubscribe from future announcements, please visit: http://www.real.com/mailinglist From apf2 at apf2.com Mon Nov 23 15:16:22 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:16:22 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - the various definitions In-Reply-To: <199811201329.HAA10119@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981124060343.009788e0@209.204.247.83> At 07:29 20/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >Now before somebody gets a bee in their bonnet.... > >Yes, the VNR has a typo in respect to the '6', it should be >2. > >As to the various other definitions that folks have been submitting. I'm not >real sure what their exact point is since it's agreed by all that it's: > >...all even numbers greater than 2..., and Goldbach believed it had to be >three prime factors while Fermat pointed out it could always be 2. Math works because in most (we would like to say all...) cases it is WELL DEFINED. Subtle differences in the definition of a problem can drastically alter the solution. Goldbach's Conjecture states that any EVEN OR ODD number can be expressed by a sum of three primes. The reduction only speaks of EVEN numbers. They are EQUIVALENT but not exactly the same thing. Don't lose sight of the domains of the two statements. He never stated that ODD numbers could be expressed as sums of TWO primes. It is very important to get all of the information assembled before running out to test the conjecture! Goldbach's original conjecture allowed for even numbers to be done with two primes but since it included the odd numbers too, he had to allow for a third prime. > >As to the two defintions that accredit the reduction from 3 to 2 to Goldbach >while leaving Fermat out of the picture fail to explain why Fermat's point >is called Fermat's in the first place. > Kind of an aside to this, I was playing with the ideas of repetitious members of the sum and found that most numbers can be expressed by a lot of different combinations of different primes. That is 17=11+3+3=11+3+1=9+5+3=7+5+5, etc. The higher the number the more combinations possible. I only worked with prime numbers as the result of the sum. But cursory inspection leads to the conclusion that all numbers can be expressed in many ways by sums of two and three primes. Depending on where you start to calculate (2,3,4,5,6, ...) as the first number you can always use 3 as the third prime when summing to an odd number, Therefor after a certain point you don't need to include 1 (as Goldbach appears to have allowed in his original conjecture). I would like to know if there is ANY number n>7 for which only one sum of primes may be found. Since there were so many possible combinations, it seems that you can take or leave the restriction of no repeats. But, if there exists some number for which only one possible combination exists then perhaps there exists a number for which the one and only combination has a repeated component. When I get a few more minutes to tinker with this I'll try to run some tests to find such a number. I used do this type of tinkering in high school. If I had had a PII 300 and MathCAD back then I would have never left Mathematics!! It was quite fun seeing the multiple solutions popping out. APF From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 23 15:31:55 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:31:55 +0800 Subject: Goldbach's Conjecture - the various definitions (fwd) Message-ID: <199811232253.QAA22907@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:03:43 +0100 > From: "Albert P. Franco, II" > Subject: Re: Goldbach's Conjecture - the various definitions > Math works because in most (we would like to say all...) cases it is WELL > DEFINED. Subtle differences in the definition of a problem can drastically > alter the solution. Absolutely. > Goldbach's Conjecture states that any EVEN OR ODD > number can be expressed by a sum of three primes. No, Goldbach's says specificaly EVEN numbers. > lose sight of the domains of the two statements. He never stated that ODD > numbers could be expressed as sums of TWO primes. Nobody said he did. > It is very important to get all of the information assembled before running Absolutely. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Nov 23 15:44:21 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:44:21 +0800 Subject: building a better zyklon-B (Re: KRA on ADK vs KR, NAI membership) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811232255.WAA17039@server.eternity.org> Writing about PGP's key recovery mechanism (CMR (Commercial Message Recovery) or ADK (Additional Decryption Key)), Dave Del Torto quotes from a letter he sent to info at kra.org: > I'm not aware of the KRA's public position on the recovery of > plaintext using cryptographically sound and ethically responsible > alternatives to the escrowing of keys in organizational situations, > e.g. PGP's Additional Decryption Key (ADK) mechanism. I don't see that ethics has any bearing on the difference between Key Escrow, and PGP's CMR "message recovery" design. They are both just yet another protocol to allow third parties to decrypt encrypted traffic. Ethics enter into the discussion when one one starts to argue about which third parties will be able to eavesdrop on the traffic. This issue is largely orthogonal to the general technique used. Parties which people are most concerned about having access to data are the spooks and governments via organisations such as NSA, GCHQ, ECHELON etc. In a commercial setting there is also some political debate about whether the employee has any expectation of privacy. One might also argue about whether it is ethical to design software which helps or makes it easy for third parties to gain access to the plaintext in general. > What is the KRA's public position on PGP's ADK? So one has to be clear of one's aims in asking KRA if they think PGP's CMR or ADK is a nice technology for adding NSA backdoors to crypto. Say, for example that they decided that CMR is neater than their CKRB mechanism. Now what? NSA/KRA lobby companies to include a modified CMR with the NSA's public key as a mandatory additional recipient? And NAI gets `asked' by the NSA to burn an NSA public key into PGP 7. Adam From jadler at soundcode.com Mon Nov 23 15:56:21 1998 From: jadler at soundcode.com (Jim Adler) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:56:21 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (RAM) under Windows") Message-ID: <002801be0ae3$cc8c3ff0$0a000080@choochoo> SCNSM 1.0 Beta, a non-swappable memory allocator for Windows 3.x/95/98, is available and can be downloaded from http://soundcode.com/content/download/products/scnsm/default.htm (docs) http://soundcode.com/content/download/products/scnsm/scnsm10b.zip (source) The SCNSM driver supports allocation of non-swappable memory on Windows 3.x/95/98. The principal design goal of SCNSM is to provide memory that will not be swapped to disk, under any circumstances. Typically, security applications require such memory to store private keys, passwords, and sensitive intermediate results of cryptographic calculations. SCNSM uses the same technique as allocating DMA buffers for hardware device transfers. The idea being that Windows doesn't swap DMA buffers and therefore won't swap this buffer either. The SCNSM source-code is copyrighted freeware. The intent here is to end the perennial nuisance of having sensitive security data swapped to disk which undermines the public's confidence in commercial security products. Please send any questions or bugs to me or support at soundcode.com. Jim ================ Jim Adler Soundcode, Inc. www.soundcode.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 23 16:02:39 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:02:39 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (RAM) under Windows") (fwd) Message-ID: <199811232327.RAA23206@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: "Jim Adler" > Subject: Re: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (RAM) under Windows") > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:47:48 -0800 > SCNSM 1.0 Beta, a non-swappable memory allocator for Windows 3.x/95/98, is > available and can be downloaded from [text deleted] > The SCNSM driver supports allocation of non-swappable memory on Windows > 3.x/95/98. The principal design goal of SCNSM is to provide memory that will > not be swapped to disk, under any circumstances. Typically, security > applications require such memory to store private keys, passwords, and > sensitive intermediate results of cryptographic calculations. [text deleted] Sounds cool, but I have a couple of questions: 1. Is it OpenSource? 2. I assume since it never swaps to disk the memory requirements for the computer are large. What is the minimum suggested if one runs say 5 apps that each require 16M each, 5*16M & OS overhead? And what is the suggested OS overhead with no swap to disk? (OK, that last one might be a 3rd question) ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 23 16:04:08 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:04:08 +0800 Subject: Goldbach & Sum's of two primes to odd numbers Message-ID: <199811232323.RAA23119@einstein.ssz.com> Somebody explain how to odd numbers added together make a third odd number. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. 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(86)-755-332 1197 Pager: 191-548 4749 From ryan at systemics.ai Mon Nov 23 17:28:57 1998 From: ryan at systemics.ai (Ryan Lackey) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:28:57 +0800 Subject: Digital bearer postage stamps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19981123210116.C1071@arianrhod.@> Quoting Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com): > I wonder if these guys have heard of double spending? > > Does anyone know whether this is some kind of 2-d barcode (it must be) or > is it something else? > > Cheers, > Robert Hettinga It's a 2-d barcode, with a bunch of info encoded into it.. Short answer: they use statistical security measures to prevent double spending, but they have a *scary* reputation and limitless resources to pursue fraud, something no one else really has. I would not be brave enough to double spend with this system from my home state, if I were in the US. Longer rambling answer: The E-stamp folks are pretty hardcore as far as security goes, I recall. They use a Dallas Semiconductor iButton (plug: check out the ibuttonpunks mailing list....) as a local value store, after paying for postage at a central location, and do other security measures I don't quite recall -- perhaps encoding your local post office, such that the local post office could keep its own database of double spenders, or having a global double spending database. The post office is pretty much protected from fraud, in any case -- much more than existing letters (which can be forged against high-speed equipment using a phosophor pen). I'm not sure how E-stamp protects itself from fraud, or protects its customers from E-stamp committing fraud, but I'm fairly convinced there is at least statistical security for the USPS against users. I believe the USPS published a standard during the search for a new postage system -- they did a pretty good job of it, I just never bothered to buy a copy. If someone bought a copy and mailed it to jya, it would be doing everyone a service. (Even if you have the nerve to commit bank wire fraud, check fraud, armed robbery, espionage, sedition, etc., you probably still aren't brave/reckless enough to commit postal fraud, though -- USPS inspectors make IRS auditors look passive) Cheers, Ryan ryan at venona.com From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 23 17:33:37 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:33:37 +0800 Subject: A tad more on Goldbach's... Message-ID: <199811240103.TAA23512@einstein.ssz.com> I figure I'll drop a couple of more points on this since nobody else seems to have twigged to them.... Goldbach's original conjecture is crap. There is NO way that 3 odd numbers will ever equal an even number. Odd + Odd is Even. Even + Odd is Odd. Fermat was a hell of a lot more charitable to the original assertion than I would have been. Goldbach's existing conjecture can be worded another way: Any even number may be represented by the sum of 3 even numbers provided two of the numbers are 1 less than a prime and we add 2. It's obvious that an even number can always be the sum of other even numbers, it's axiomatic. The question actualy is: Is the set of even numbers whose members are one less than the corresponding member of the primes sufficient, when added to 2, to sum to all the even numbers. As far as I can find nobody has written a lot on patterns of even numbers 1 less than the odds. There's not even a name for the set that I can find. As to somebodies assertion that an odd number can be represented by the sum of two odds, better study your math a tad better. Odd + Odd is *always* Even, never Odd. Happy Thanksgiving! ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From max at 192.168.100.6 Tue Nov 24 10:21:04 1998 From: max at 192.168.100.6 (Maxim Bugaenko) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:21:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: unscribe Message-ID: <365B0981.966548AE@192.168.100.6> From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 23 18:38:03 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:38:03 +0800 Subject: A tad more on Goldbach's... In-Reply-To: <199811240103.TAA23512@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: At 5:03 PM -0800 11/23/98, Jim Choate wrote: >I figure I'll drop a couple of more points on this since nobody else seems to >have twigged to them.... Your reputation capital has already dropped so many points that I'm not sure you _can_ drop a couple of more points. Please take your bizarre theories about Goldbach's Conjecture to some mathematics journals and see if you can get published. Writing dozens of crankish articles about your theories about prime numbers, and tiling triangles, and such is just plain eccentric. (Eccentric curve cryptography?) And basing big chunks of your argument on why 1 or 2 or whatever should or should not be defined as prime is just plain sophistry. Ditto for your bizarre theories about how electric fields work, about how charges inside conducting spheres don't follow Gauss's Law, and other crankish theories about electricity. Give it a rest. --Tim May "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, just the way the President did." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 23 18:39:12 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:39:12 +0800 Subject: A tad more on Goldbach's... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811240217.UAA23902@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:06:11 -0800 > From: Tim May > Subject: Re: A tad more on Goldbach's... > Ditto for your bizarre theories about how electric fields work, about how > charges inside conducting spheres don't follow Gauss's Law, and other > crankish theories about electricity. Bullshit Tim. I NEVER said that. You and the other physics geniuses who stated that an internal charge on a conducting sphere doesn't get propogated out to the surface of the sphere are the ones who are claiming that Gauss' Law doesn't apply. Don't give me credit for your stupidity. You give it a rest. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From minow at pobox.com Mon Nov 23 22:40:24 1998 From: minow at pobox.com (Martin Minow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:40:24 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: <199811230327.VAA20072@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: Vlad Stesin writes: >I don't quite understand the logic behind this. The fact that the >program's source is available is itself a proof that there are no >backdoors. Anyone can read the source code and make sure it's OK. > You're missing the point that Thompson and Ritchie made in "Reflections on Trusting Trust." To summarize: 1. They added a Trojan Horse function to the login sources. 2. They added code to the C compiler that recognized the login source code and inserted the Trojan Horse function, then they erased it from the login sources. 3. They added code to the C compiler that recognized the C compiler sources and added the code noted in step 2 above. 4. They then erased the source from the C compiler. Now, 1. If you recompile login using a distributed C compiler, the Trojan Horse will be added to the executable, but will not be visible in the source. 2. If you recompile the C compiler using an existing C compiler, it will add the Trojan Horse insertion function, but this, too, will not be visible in the C sources. I might have missed a step or two here, but you probably get the picture. The only way to detect the Trojan Horse is to read the executables. In the actual case, if I remember correctly, Ken and Dennis didn't try to conceal all their tracks, so the Trojan Horse was visible in the global symbol (nm) listing. >From personal experience, I am aware of at least one manufacturer of safety-critical computer-controlled hardware who read the assembly language output by the compiler to validate the actual machine instructions that were generated. Martin Minow minow at pobox.com From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 24 00:53:09 1998 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:53:09 +0800 Subject: A tad more on Goldbach's... Message-ID: <19981124082003.1500.qmail@nym.alias.net> Tim May scolds Jim Choate: > Ditto for your bizarre theories about how electric fields work, about how > charges inside conducting spheres don't follow Gauss's Law, and other > crankish theories about electricity. > > Give it a rest. No doubt it would be rude to point out that it was Tim May's aggressive defense of off-topic postings that has made cypherpunks a safe haven for the likes of Jim Choate. As for Choate, perhaps his least charming trait is his insistence on posting his incoming private email to the mailing list, as though cypherpunks were his personal mailbox. He even scolds people who have the courtesy to take off-topic discussions to private email. This behavior is exactly the opposite of appropriate mailing list etiquette. Choate is like a little boy who feels a fart coming on when in the bathroom, and who runs into the living room to share it with guests. His particular stench has been fouling the list for far too long. From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 24 01:11:41 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:11:41 +0800 Subject: Space Aliens Address cpunx Message-ID: <199811240839.JAA02315@replay.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [Bienfait Nutly News] THE COALDUST SALOON, SCENE OF MUCH DEBAUCHERY of late, was host tonight to Guest Sprinkler Jeff Gordon on the annual Golden Showers of Nuggets celebration of Notable Peons, with numerous notable peed-ons in drunken attendance (when not staggering outside to do some notable peeing-on, themselves). Lamely trying to establish some common philosophical ground with the rowdy crowd, Jeff tried to cast his organization's mission as embodying "less is more." Realizing that "you have less, we have more" is not exactly what the Taoist concept means, the attendees raised catcalls to a pitch sufficient to shatter beer mugs within a radius of 100 yards. That in turn led to outpourings of grief so profound that Jeff was momentarily forgotten in the frenzy to order refills. Trying another tack, Jeff launched into his "Nation of Laws" speech, ignoring shouted questions about selective prosecution, institutional revenge-taking, political hit lists, taxpayer suicides, and his organization's complicity in incidents of mysterious death more numerous than those trailing behind El Prez Klinton himself. When he delivered the line about "the price we pay for a civilized society," the extremes of apoplectic laughter so engendered were alarming enough that he paused in the interest of avoiding the necessity to explain deaths of attendees by traumatic mirth to the Canadian authorities. When he resumed, so many of the recovering crowd had gone to the restrooms to clean themselves up after pissing their pants and some of them vomiting from the effect of convulsive laughter that his later points were largely lost. The question and answer period was somewhat stunted by Jeff's seemingly uncontrollable habit of asking each questioner's SS number. He didn't seem to comprehend that out of his usual institutional context such requests set off everyone's alarm bells, being the hyperparanoid rebel fucks that they are. Of those who persisted, two threw Jeff curve balls he seemed unprepared to catch. One asked him his relationship to the Gordon who penned the Treasury's notorious Gordon Report of 1981, in which the author proposed using Letters of Marque and Reprisal against uncooperative tax haven nations, denying their flag airlines landing rights in the U.S., and blatantly stated that the U.S. must use every means at its disposal to pressure other nations to change their laws, even their constitutions, if necessary, to conform with the wishes of the U.S. Treasury and submit themselves to U.S. extraterritorial jurisdiction. Jeff seemed flustered, then changed the subject. The other asked him if it wasn't true that since the USG can create money at will out of thin air, and that therefore tax collections are obviously not needed to run the government, but that since increasing the money supply one-sidedly to fund government would obviously lead to hyperinflation, that the true function of the income tax and therefore the IRS is to take money out of circulation and destroy it to keep the money supply in balance. Jeff stammered, a few syllables slipping out as if to ask, "How did you...? who told you...?" Jeff hurriedly gathered his things and made his exit, trailed by the slow-thinking guer^H^H^Horillas he brought as bodyguards, his APC kicking up streams of packed snow as he sped away down the road. Declan "Chainsaw" McCullough didn't seem to notice Jeff's premature withdrawal (as, indeed, he hadn't seemed to notice Jeff's entrance), and continued trying to charm two buxom blonde reportwhores with his tales of journalistic derring-do and wildly exaggerated claims of his manly proportions. Blanc, tiring of this reportwhore's incessant questions about her panties, settled the issue once and for all (or at least for _that_ evening) by slipping them off while seated, and placing them over my head in such a way that I could see out the legholes while inhaling her womanly fragrance. My dizziness prevented me from noticing much else for the rest of the evening, my reaction to The Scent being not unlike that of a cat to catnip. I was told later that after collapsing to the floor I squirmed my way from table to table, making the complete circuit of the Coal Dust Saloon, confirming everyone's suspicions that I can't be taken anywhere. But then, neither can they. I was recovered enough at night's end to help with the ritual decontamination of the Saloon that always follows the infectious presence of government thugs. In addition to the spiritual cleansing, some half-dozen subminiature bugging devices were recovered, followed by much entertaining speculation on which local asswipe they should be planted on to encourage the most dangerous life forms around to feed on each other. TruthMonger "Just because you have part of me locked up doesn't mean you have all of me locked up." When I heard them say, "You have the right to remain bent over. Anything you say or we imagine you said or would like to tell people you said can and will be used against you. You have the right to an attorney who works for us. If you cannot afford one, an attorney will be provided to help you cop a plea. Your ass belongs to us," I realized the Revolution had already begun. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNIOCSM5WpAclQcU1AQEayQQAxK8pV2vaImguCj6dmGBTvzWrkgZWMwIy dfxDsf2akW+tbKZlj2PhMSrR1akBEd0LEsbekVf0bP7d/EAzNAMtB2FUezFhEtE3 BrV6fodfNzNsMMSR/i+tb+wN/6vSYXyqJmCyTfIzUnmHFHvtNf0WfIbEZi6wliQi KtsjgvL3A2A= =kYIE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From P.Hinsberger at globus.net Tue Nov 24 01:56:56 1998 From: P.Hinsberger at globus.net (Patrick Hinsberger ) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:56:56 +0800 Subject: IP-Adresses Message-ID: <365A79AE.7FE2AAE4@globus.net> Hi, my English is fuck, but I hope that anybody unerstand me If I`ve got a IP-Adress, f.E. 126.0.202.146 and our proxy denies this Adress, I can transform this adress in one number... ((126*256)+0)*256+202)*256+146 = 7E 00 CA 92 Is there a mistake? Can I connect with this adress to a Website? (Netscape Navigator and Proxy from Bull Systems...) - at Hinse@- Please give reply direct to my E-Mail adress, and not to the group... From CarolMoore at kreative.net Tue Nov 24 18:37:08 1998 From: CarolMoore at kreative.net (Carol Moore) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:37:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Y2K Privatization Opportunities In-Reply-To: <273792.365B0B1E@dehnbase.org> Message-ID: <365B6C0C.7016E77@kreative.net> Libertarians: Whatever the extent of Y2K related problems that actually develops, there is one thing for certain: The private sector will be up and running smoothly before much of the government sector. Y2K will be a fantastic opportunity to promote and achieve privatization. So let's start planning for taking advantage of that opportunity and stop arguing about how bad it will or will not be. Somebody want to start the "Y2K Privatization Coalition"?? CarolMoore at kreative.net http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore From K1cZS9PLE at ps.quotron.com Tue Nov 24 21:07:29 1998 From: K1cZS9PLE at ps.quotron.com (K1cZS9PLE at ps.quotron.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:07:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Call my Bedroom Directly ! ! ! ! ! ! Message-ID: If you don't want me to Contact you again, Alas, please Write me at sorry at chickmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Call My Bedroom Directly!!! DO it with me in MY BED!!! CALL me NOW Before My Parents COME HOME!!! My Phone Number is 1-664-410-3282. Judy (Any Guy 18 or over only, please. I don't want to get into any trouble!) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- P.S. Some of you may wanna call my brother's bedroom. (I think he's gay, but I'm not sure.) It's 1-664-410-4403 Call him now! BUT don't tell him you get this from me. Okay?!!!!! From ZDUEmail at mail.training.com Tue Nov 24 09:26:40 1998 From: ZDUEmail at mail.training.com (ZDU Email) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:26:40 +0800 Subject: Welcome to ZDU Message-ID: Thank you for subscribing to ZDU. The information you need to login to ZDU from our Home Page at http://www.zdu.com is as follows: User Name: Jolly Password: HRS59VTF Please note: the username is case sensitive, e.g. the mixed case 'XyZzY' is not the same as the all lower case 'xyzzy'. We hope that you enjoy our site! --The ZDU Staff Ref:[\\650363-1\\] From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 24 09:28:01 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:28:01 +0800 Subject: trusting code Message-ID: <199811241515.QAA32114@replay.com> At 01:12 PM 11/23/98 +0000, Frank O'Dwyer wrote: >Vlad Stesin wrote: >> I don't quite understand the logic behind this. The fact that the >> program's source is available is itself a proof that there are no >> backdoors. Anyone can read the source code and make sure it's OK. > >Anyone can, but does anyone? Yes we do, but applied skeptics also consider the problem is also trusting your compiler, and the rest of the OS (incl. memory manager, keyboard driver, the email program your PGP utility may plug into, BIOS, etc.) What version of Microsoft compilers will begin checking for Mozilla code and compiling 'differently'? See Ritchie's Turing award article on Trusting Trust... From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 24 09:29:27 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:29:27 +0800 Subject: open source Message-ID: <199811241513.QAA31885@replay.com> At 10:48 AM 11/23/98 -0700, Jim Burnes - Denver wrote: >Break into the coding environment? Does that mean they broke into >the VMS development shop? It is reasonable to believe that the US government (and others) finds a patriotic "contact" with access to source, inside various big code shops (MSoft, Lotus, the corporation formerly known as DEC, etc.) If it were otherwise we would not be getting our tax dollars' worth, eh? --Maced aliens confide in my fugs From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 24 10:50:59 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:50:59 +0800 Subject: A bit more on Goldbach's and Primes Message-ID: <199811241801.MAA26092@einstein.ssz.com> Goldbach's Conjecture: Any even number >2 can be represented as the sum of two prime numbers. Goldbach's Extension: Any even number >=6 can be represented as the sum of three even numbers. 2 plus two evens that are each 1 less than a prime. Process: 1. Pick an even number 2. Select largest prime that is smaller by at least 4. 3. Add 1. 4. The difference between 1 and 3 should be a p-1. Add one to the difference and it must be in the list of primes. If it's not then go back to 2. and select the next smaller prime because the odd number that comes from (p-1)+1 isn't prime for that prime. Observation: This technique could be used to extrapolate potential unknown primes from known primes since it produces a much smaller list of potential candidates than simply testing consecutive odds via a sieve. It also is not as porous as Mersenne Prime tests. 2+(largest_known_prime-1)+(next_smallest_unknown_prime-1)=big_even_number So, we need a way of guestimating the magnitude of the next prime and pick big_even_numbers that are appropriate. Observation: For a given x the number of primes Happy Thanksgiving! Forwarded message: > From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Tue Nov 24 12:35:18 1998 > Message-ID: <365B0981.966548AE at 192.168.100.6> > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:31:13 +0000 > From: Maxim Bugaenko > Reply-To: slaike at mika.dp.ua > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: unscribe > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Precedence: bulk > X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com > X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com > X-Loop: ssz.com > X-Language: English, Russian, German > > 1. You MUST spell correctly. 2. send a message to majordomo at domain.name with an empty title and the body consisting of 'unsubscribe '. Note that if you don't unsubscribe from the same account you subscribed with it will fail. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Tue Nov 24 12:11:50 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:11:50 +0800 Subject: A bit more on Goldbach's and Primes In-Reply-To: <199811241801.MAA26092@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <199811241918.NAA00906@manifold.algebra.com> Jim Choate wrote: > > > > Goldbach's Conjecture: > > Any even number >2 can be represented as the sum of two prime numbers. > > > Goldbach's Extension: > > Any even number >=6 can be represented as the sum of three even numbers. 2 > plus two evens that are each 1 less than a prime. Jim, The "extension" is just a trivial consequence of the original conjecture. Proof: Take any even number N >= 6. According to the original conjecture, there are two prime numbers P1 and P2 such that N=p1+p2. Rewriting this: N = 2 + (p1-1) + (p2-1). That is, two plus two evens that are each one less than a prime. That's eighth grade math. > > Process: > > 1. Pick an even number > 2. Select largest prime that is smaller by at least 4. > 3. Add 1. > 4. The difference between 1 and 3 should be a p-1. Add one to the > difference and it must be in the list of primes. If it's not then if it is not then it must have not been in the list of primes. > go back to 2. and select the next smaller prime because the odd > number that comes from (p-1)+1 isn't prime for that prime. > > > Observation: > > This technique could be used to extrapolate potential unknown primes from > known primes since it produces a much smaller list of potential candidates > than simply testing consecutive odds via a sieve. It also is not as porous > as Mersenne Prime tests. Bullshit. Your "technique" ASSUMES that you already know the "largest prime that is smaller by at least 4". > 2+(largest_known_prime-1)+(next_smallest_unknown_prime-1)=big_even_number > > So, we need a way of guestimating the magnitude of the next prime and pick > big_even_numbers that are appropriate. > > Observation: For a given x the number of primes So we could note the points where x/ln(x) increases by 1. > Your observation is incorrect. Consider x = 8. x/ln(x) =~ 3.84, but the number of primes < 8 (2,3,5,7) is 4, that is more than 8/ln(8). I suggest checking observations more carefully. igor > Even Number Sum's: > > 6, 2+2+2 > 8, 2+2+4 > 10, 2+2+6 > 12, 2+4+6 > 14, 2+6+6 > 18, 2+4+12 > 20, 2+2+16 > 22, 2+2+18 > 24, 2+4+18 > 26, 2+6+18 > 28, 2+4+22 > 30, 2+6+22 > 32, 2+2+28 > 34, 2+2+30 > 36, 2+4+30 > 38, 2+6+30 > 40, 2+2+36 > > ... > > 100, 2+2+96 > > ... > > 398, 2+8+388 Note: this breaks since 8 isn't available. 9 ain't a > prime. > > 2+14+382 next smaller doesn't work since 14 isn't there. > 15 isn't prime. > > 2+18+378 that one works! > > ... > > 666, 2+4+660 > > ... > > 758, 2+6+750 > > ... > > 1,032, 2+10+1020 > > ... > > 1,044, 2+4+1038 > > ... > > 6,236, 2+6+6228 > > ... > > 7,920, 2+12+7906 Note: can't use 7,919 since it's delta is <4. > > > Iterated Sums: > > 2+2+2=6 > 2+2+4=8 > 2+2+6=10 > 2+2+10=14 > > 2+4+2=8 > 2+4+4=10 > 2+4+6=12 > 2+4+10=16 > > 2+6+2=10 > 2+6+4=12 > 2+6+6=14 > 2+6+10=18 > > > 1st 1,000 Primes & their p-1's: > > p p-1 > ------------------------------- > > 2 1 > 3 2 > 5 4 > 7 6 > 11 10 > 13 12 > 17 16 > 19 18 > 23 22 > 29 28 > 31 30 > 37 36 > 41 40 > 43 42 > 47 46 > 53 52 > 59 58 > 61 60 > 67 66 > 71 70 > 73 72 > 79 78 > 83 82 > 89 88 > 97 96 > 101 100 > 103 > 107 > 109 > 113 > > > 127 131 137 139 149 151 157 163 167 173 > > > 179 181 191 193 197 199 211 223 227 229 > > > 233 239 241 251 257 263 269 271 277 281 > > > 283 293 307 311 313 317 331 337 347 349 > > > 353 359 367 373 379 383 389 397 401 409 > > > 419 421 431 433 439 443 449 457 461 463 > > 467 479 487 491 499 503 509 521 523 541 > > 547 557 563 569 571 577 587 593 599 601 > > 607 613 617 619 631 641 643 647 653 659 > > 661 673 677 683 691 701 709 719 727 733 > > 739 743 751 757 761 769 773 787 797 809 > > 811 821 823 827 829 839 853 857 859 863 > > 877 881 883 887 907 911 919 929 937 941 > > 947 953 967 971 977 983 991 997 1009 1013 > > 1019 1021 1031 1033 1039 1049 1051 1061 1063 1069 > > 1087 1091 1093 1097 1103 1109 1117 1123 1129 1151 > > 1153 1163 1171 1181 1187 1193 1201 1213 1217 1223 > > 1229 1231 1237 1249 1259 1277 1279 1283 1289 1291 > > 1297 1301 1303 1307 1319 1321 1327 1361 1367 1373 > > 1381 1399 1409 1423 1427 1429 1433 1439 1447 1451 > > 1453 1459 1471 1481 1483 1487 1489 1493 1499 1511 > > 1523 1531 1543 1549 1553 1559 1567 1571 1579 1583 > > 1597 1601 1607 1609 1613 1619 1621 1627 1637 1657 > > 1663 1667 1669 1693 1697 1699 1709 1721 1723 1733 > > 1741 1747 1753 1759 1777 1783 1787 1789 1801 1811 > > 1823 1831 1847 1861 1867 1871 1873 1877 1879 1889 > > 1901 1907 1913 1931 1933 1949 1951 1973 1979 1987 > > 1993 1997 1999 2003 2011 2017 2027 2029 2039 2053 > > 2063 2069 2081 2083 2087 2089 2099 2111 2113 2129 > > 2131 2137 2141 2143 2153 2161 2179 2203 2207 2213 > > 2221 2237 2239 2243 2251 2267 2269 2273 2281 2287 > > 2293 2297 2309 2311 2333 2339 2341 2347 2351 2357 > > 2371 2377 2381 2383 2389 2393 2399 2411 2417 2423 > > 2437 2441 2447 2459 2467 2473 2477 2503 2521 2531 > > 2539 2543 2549 2551 2557 2579 2591 2593 2609 2617 > > 2621 2633 2647 2657 2659 2663 2671 2677 2683 2687 > > 2689 2693 2699 2707 2711 2713 2719 2729 2731 2741 > > 2749 2753 2767 2777 2789 2791 2797 2801 2803 2819 > > 2833 2837 2843 2851 2857 2861 2879 2887 2897 2903 > > 2909 2917 2927 2939 2953 2957 2963 2969 2971 2999 > > 3001 3011 3019 3023 3037 3041 3049 3061 3067 3079 > > 3083 3089 3109 3119 3121 3137 3163 3167 3169 3181 > > 3187 3191 3203 3209 3217 3221 3229 3251 3253 3257 > > 3259 3271 3299 3301 3307 3313 3319 3323 3329 3331 > > 3343 3347 3359 3361 3371 3373 3389 3391 3407 3413 > > 3433 3449 3457 3461 3463 3467 3469 3491 3499 3511 > > 3517 3527 3529 3533 3539 3541 3547 3557 3559 3571 > > 3581 3583 3593 3607 3613 3617 3623 3631 3637 3643 > > 3659 3671 3673 3677 3691 3697 3701 3709 3719 3727 > > 3733 3739 3761 3767 3769 3779 3793 3797 3803 3821 > > 3823 3833 3847 3851 3853 3863 3877 3881 3889 3907 > > 3911 3917 3919 3923 3929 3931 3943 3947 3967 3989 > > 4001 4003 4007 4013 4019 4021 4027 4049 4051 4057 > > 4073 4079 4091 4093 4099 4111 4127 4129 4133 4139 > > 4153 4157 4159 4177 4201 4211 4217 4219 4229 4231 > > 4241 4243 4253 4259 4261 4271 4273 4283 4289 4297 > > 4327 4337 4339 4349 4357 4363 4373 4391 4397 4409 > > 4421 4423 4441 4447 4451 4457 4463 4481 4483 4493 > > 4507 4513 4517 4519 4523 4547 4549 4561 4567 4583 > > 4591 4597 4603 4621 4637 4639 4643 4649 4651 4657 > > 4663 4673 4679 4691 4703 4721 4723 4729 4733 4751 > > 4759 4783 4787 4789 4793 4799 4801 4813 4817 4831 > > 4861 4871 4877 4889 4903 4909 4919 4931 4933 4937 > > 4943 4951 4957 4967 4969 4973 4987 4993 4999 5003 > > 5009 5011 5021 5023 5039 5051 5059 5077 5081 5087 > > 5099 5101 5107 5113 5119 5147 5153 5167 5171 5179 > > 5189 5197 5209 5227 5231 5233 5237 5261 5273 5279 > > 5281 5297 5303 5309 5323 5333 5347 5351 5381 5387 > > 5393 5399 5407 5413 5417 5419 5431 5437 5441 5443 > > 5449 5471 5477 5479 5483 5501 5503 5507 5519 5521 > > 5527 5531 5557 5563 5569 5573 5581 5591 5623 5639 > > 5641 5647 5651 5653 5657 5659 5669 5683 5689 5693 > > 5701 5711 5717 5737 5741 5743 5749 5779 5783 5791 > > 5801 5807 5813 5821 5827 5839 5843 5849 5851 5857 > > 5861 5867 5869 5879 5881 5897 5903 5923 5927 5939 > > 5953 5981 5987 6007 6011 6029 6037 6043 6047 6053 > > 6067 6073 6079 6089 6091 6101 6113 6121 6131 6133 > > 6143 6151 6163 6173 6197 6199 6203 6211 6217 6221 > > 6229 6247 6257 6263 6269 6271 6277 6287 6299 6301 > > 6311 6317 6323 6329 6337 6343 6353 6359 6361 6367 > > 6373 6379 6389 6397 6421 6427 6449 6451 6469 6473 > > 6481 6491 6521 6529 6547 6551 6553 6563 6569 6571 > > 6577 6581 6599 6607 6619 6637 6653 6659 6661 6673 > > 6679 6689 6691 6701 6703 6709 6719 6733 6737 6761 > > 6763 6779 6781 6791 6793 6803 6823 6827 6829 6833 > > 6841 6857 6863 6869 6871 6883 6899 6907 6911 6917 > > 6947 6949 6959 6961 6967 6971 6977 6983 6991 6997 > > 7001 7013 7019 7027 7039 7043 7057 7069 7079 7103 > > 7109 7121 7127 7129 7151 7159 7177 7187 7193 7207 > > 7211 7213 7219 7229 7237 7243 7247 7253 7283 7297 > > 7307 7309 7321 7331 7333 7349 7351 7369 7393 7411 > > 7417 7433 7451 7457 7459 7477 7481 7487 7489 7499 > > 7507 7517 7523 7529 7537 7541 7547 7549 7559 7561 > > 7573 7577 7583 7589 7591 7603 7607 7621 7639 7643 > > 7649 7669 7673 7681 7687 7691 7699 7703 7717 7723 > > 7727 7741 7753 7757 7759 7789 7793 7817 7823 7829 > > 7841 7853 7867 7873 7877 7879 7883 7901 7907 7919 > - Igor. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 24 12:58:37 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:58:37 +0800 Subject: A bit more on Goldbach's and Primes (fwd) Message-ID: <199811242017.OAA26647@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: A bit more on Goldbach's and Primes > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:18:13 -0600 (CST) > From: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov @ home) > According to the original conjecture, there are two prime numbers P1 and > P2 such that N=p1+p2. > > Rewriting this: N = 2 + (p1-1) + (p2-1). > > That is, two plus two evens that are each one less than a prime. > > That's eighth grade math. No, shit. It's a pity nobody seem to have ever carried it through and published it. > > Process: > > > > 1. Pick an even number > > 2. Select largest prime that is smaller by at least 4. > > 3. Add 1. > > 4. The difference between 1 and 3 should be a p-1. Add one to the > > difference and it must be in the list of primes. If it's not then > > if it is not then it must have not been in the list of primes. Exactly, I've a latter version that covers the various boundary conditions and what they mean. 9 and 15 for example aren't prime so because that number doesn't appear in the list of primes you know that this prime won't work as a candidate and you go pick the next lower one. If this is your only objection with this algorithm then I'm covered. > > Observation: > > > > This technique could be used to extrapolate potential unknown primes from > > known primes since it produces a much smaller list of potential candidates > > than simply testing consecutive odds via a sieve. It also is not as porous > > as Mersenne Prime tests. > > Bullshit. > > Your "technique" ASSUMES that you already know the "largest prime that > is smaller by at least 4". But you do. You have a list of known primes as I said originaly. Should have looked at the list of the first 1000 primes that was attached. If you don't want an array you could always impliment a Seive of Eratosthanese for example to generate them as required. This is an approach I'm looking at currently with a Perl implimentation. Hell, even if you start off with only 2 and 3 defined as prime you can generate the others, though it doesn't appear to be sufficient to prove primality. It does reduce the number of candidate odd numbers to examine for primality. Given [ 2, 3 ] and Goldbach's Extension: 6 = 2 + 2 + 2 p = 3, p = 3 8 = 2 + 2 + 4 p = 3, p = 5 We do a Seive of Eratosthanese and find 5 is prime so we now have: [ 2, 3, 5 ] 10 = 2 + 4 + 4 p = 5, p = 5 12 = 2 + 4 + 6 p = 5, p = 7 So we check 7 and find it's prime and we now have: [ 2, 3, 5, 7 ] And so on. The real advantage comes into play for very large primes since they get more sparse implying that a strictly direct approach (eg applying a Seive to every odd number) gets more and more non-primes to sift through. This technique reduces that set considerably because it gives you a known list of primes that you look through for existance. > > 2+(largest_known_prime-1)+(next_smallest_unknown_prime-1)=big_even_number > > > > So, we need a way of guestimating the magnitude of the next prime and pick > > big_even_numbers that are appropriate. > > > > Observation: For a given x the number of primes > So we could note the points where x/ln(x) increases by 1. > > > > Your observation is incorrect. > > Consider x = 8. x/ln(x) =~ 3.84, but the number of primes < 8 (2,3,5,7) is > 4, that is more than 8/ln(8). I'd say round up the 3.84. This is modulo math so fractions like this are impossible to deal with in this context because they aren't defined. The normal process is that if a fraction is produced it rounds up to the next larger integer (re the Camel & Banana problem). It's not my observation. If you go and look on The Primes webpage or any number theory book that covers limits on primes then you will find this asymptote given as the most commenly used. > I suggest checking observations more carefully. I did, you should check your conclusions more carefuly before you jump into something. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 24 13:20:01 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 05:20:01 +0800 Subject: Limit on number of primes....a (silly) typo... Message-ID: <199811242042.OAA26750@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, Just to let you know, I had typed x/ln(x) as the asymptotic limit for the number of primes less than x. This is incorrect. It should be, x/log(x) I guess I did it by habit. Sorry. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Nov 24 14:40:37 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 06:40:37 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks with guns Message-ID: <199811242151.NAA21976@smtp.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/16433.html A group of San Francisco Bay Area cypherpunks recently spent hundreds of dollars per person on "defensive handgun" and "practical rifle" courses at the Front Sight firearms training institute in Aptos, California. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 24 15:06:57 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:06:57 +0800 Subject: :-) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:39:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org Cc: bostic at bostic.com Subject: Is there any Substance to this Email ?? Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:43:51 -0500 From: glen mccready Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/274 X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org Precedence: list Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org Status: U Forwarded-by: Chris Wedgwood From: tph at longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Win 98 Snitch? Message-ID: <7279b8$ahr1 at eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Mark Statzer (mstatz at net66.om) wrote: : Microsoft slapped two more lawsuit against one teenager and one : retired worker for using pirated Windows 98 software. : For your information on how Microsoft actually trace : PIRATED/COPIED/UNLICENSED Windows 98: : Whenever you logon into the Internet, during the verifying password : duration. Your ISP (Internet Service provider eg:SingNET, PacNET, : CyberNET, SwiftNET) will download a SUB-REGISTRY ENCRYPTED HEXADECIMAL : (containing all your PROGRAMS serial numbers installed into Win98!!) : file from your Windows 98 registry. Then they send this SUB-REGISTRY : to Microsoft for verification. And ONLY Microsoft knows how to decode : this encrypted hexadecimal file. If Microsoft verified that the serial : numbers are authentic, then they WILL REGISTER THOSE NUMBERS FOR YOU : A-U-T-O-M-A-T-C-A-L-L-Y !!! : And if Microsoft denied those serial numbers, then they will send an : E-Mail to the ISP you dialed into and your ISP will start tracing : everyone who logons to their systems. That's why during sometime for : no reason your Internet started slowing down. And if your ISP verified : that the SUB-REGISTRY ENCRYPTED HEXADECIMAL file is yours, they will : send : your information over to Microsoft Singapore. And there they will : decide whether to take actions or not. And then, if they _do_ decide to take action, black helicopters start circling your house, using mind-control rays to bend you to Microsoft's will. If this doesn't cut it (say, you're wearing a tin-foil hat), the men in black show up and remove your whole computer, and then use their memory-zapping thingy to erase any memory of ever having a computer. You'll then be officially branded as a dangerous outlaw subversive type (even though you no longer have your PIRATE/COPIED/UNLICENSED software, you've demonstrated that you're the type of person who will _get_ such software) and will not be able to get jobs, insurance, loans, etc. MS will tap your phone, and their agents will follow your every move. : There is already 54 cases in Singapore regarding uses of : PIRATE/COPIED/UNLICENSED Windows 98. Finally, when the revolution comes, MS will see to it that your house is high on the list of sites for the UN invaders to hit with tactical nukes. : Is there any Substance to this Email ?? It's all true. I had to go public with this information, even though the MS stormtroopers will doubtless show up at any second now. The people have a right to know. DON'T EVER GO ON LINE!!! YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!!!! : Do you Guys think that there exists such a registry in Windows 98 : Has microsoft sued anybody for illegal use of it ?? Sued? SUED???!!? When MS gets through with you, you're going to WISH that they'd jusT SUED you! These people are EVIL!!! They kidnapped my dog and G$%@^RB. f NO CARRIER --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Tue Nov 24 16:00:34 1998 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:00:34 +0800 Subject: open-pgp / s/mime interoperability Message-ID: <199811242259.WAA04469@server.eternity.org> On the IETF s/mime list Jon Callas (PGP/NAI employee and co-author of IETF open-pgp draft for cypherpunks not following open-pgp) wrote: : I'd like to note that PGP is supported by NAI, Microsoft, Novell, : and more that are coming soon. curious as to what form Microsoft support of PGP will come in. Integrated PGP support with microsoft mail clients in later versions? Jon also wrote: : there is no reason why you can't have PGP : messages backed by X.509 certificates, and it is trivial to use S/MIME : with OpenPGP certificates. I'm planning on writing a short : informational RFC on how to do it once we all get RFC numbers for our : respective systems. open-pgp public keys aren't based on X.509 keys, so I would've thought s/mime implementation would barf on them. Are you basing this on the fact that you can extract the actual public key and repackage it as an X.509 public key? In this way you could take the same key into the X.509 / s/mime world, but you would lose open-pgp sigantures on the key, so it would lose it's certification. More recently we've been hearing that PGP6.x? or a future version of PGP does or will allow one to carry along X.509 keys, or perhaps even work directly with X.509 keys. Is this what you are referring to? (Separate question: any due date on the netscape plugin -- I want one of those!) Adam (message from IETF s/mime list the above is quoted from below). ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:54:29 -0800 To: Stefan_Salzmann/HAM/Lotus at lotus.com, ietf-smime at imc.org From: Jon Callas Subject: Re: Difference between SMIME and PGP At 05:20 PM 11/4/98 +0100, Stefan_Salzmann/HAM/Lotus at lotus.com wrote: I am struggling on the difference between SMIME and PGP. One of my customers wants to make the decision between using SMIME and PGP. I have been talking already with them but we got stuck in detailes. Basically its quit clear. SMIME will be supported by all important industry leaders such as Netscape, Microsoft, Novell etc. I'd like to note that PGP is supported by NAI, Microsoft, Novell, and more that are coming soon. Further SMIME supports the hierarchical trust model and PGP only supports the "web of trust" model. Actually, this is false. PGP supports all trust models, direct trust, hierarchical trust, and web of trust. As I said in my previous message, PGP supports 255 levels of hierarchy. However, I forgot to say that OpenPGP does not mandate *any* trust model. As a matter of fact, the OpenPGP working group has rejected any mandate of trust model. You are permitted to use an OpenPGP certificate with PKIX evaluation rules, and still be OpenPGP compliant! Now with PGP Version 6.0, PGP will support also X.509 certificates. Those can also be loaded into an PGP client than an SMIME Client can do it. So where is the difference now? Is it just the fact that the industry decided to go with SMIME or are there more differences (advantages for SMIME) when looking more closely. Actually, the industry hasn't decided to go with anything. Furthermore, there is no reason why you can't have PGP messages backed by X.509 certificates, and it is trivial to use S/MIME with OpenPGP certificates. I'm planning on writing a short informational RFC on how to do it once we all get RFC numbers for our respective systems. For instance using RSA public key encryption versus Deffie Helman public key encryption. How about Digital Signature Standard (DSS)? I have red about DSS and understand that DSS is the standard that provides the Digital Signature Algorithm. Before applying it there has to be calculated an Digest using SHA. I always thought that calculating the digest would be the signature already!! So why using the DSA in addition? Will the digest be decrypted using the Deffie Helman private key? The issue of algorithm is orthogonal to message encoding. The PGP-S/MIME question is really one of message encoding format. Each requires DSS, and allows RSA. The DSS (Digital Signature Standard) describes how to make a signature using DSA (Digital Signature Algorithm) and SHA1 (Secure Hash Algorithm). That's how they relate. You could (for example) use DSA with RIPEMD-160, but it wouldn't be DSS because DSS specifies the hash algorithm you should be using for the signature. DSA is a signature-only algorithm. Consequently, you aren't doing a "decryption" with it when you evaluate a signature. I recommend you look in a crypto source book, like Schneier's "Applied Cryptography" or Menezes, van Oorschot, and Vanstone's "Handbook of Applied Cryptography" for details of how DSS is done. There is also source code available from a wide variety of places. Users that apply Deffie Helman exchange their public values in order to derive an secret key that will be known at both party sides. Is that secret key the private key used to encrypt message digests or is the private key generated by the DSA algorithm? Like I said, DSS has its own signature-only key. As for "Diffie-Hellman" depending on the variant of DH you're using, you may or may not have an actual key. Many real-time systems use ephemeral DH merely to exchange symmetric keys. In OpenPGP, we use the Elgamal system for encryption. S/MIME is using an X9.42 algorithm that is very close (if not identical) to Elgamal. In PGP further exist key rings that contain the public keys of other users? How does that work with X.509 Certificates that actually contain the public key. If there has to be a public key revoked, it happens in the key ring. Would it be possible to export that revoked certificate. If not the revoked public key would resist only lokally. Most systems, be they PGP or X.509, use something akin to a directory to store certs, revocations, etc. Typically, these are HTTP or LDAP based systems. Are there any differences/advantages between RSA and Deffie Helman? Again, this is orthoganal to encoding, as these are merely algorithms. But yes, of course. The security of RSA is based upon the difficulty of factoring large numbers. Most people who toss around the term "Diffie-Hellman" use it to cover an entire family of algorithms whose security is all based on the difficulty of solving discrete logs. These include DSA, X9.42, Schnorr, and Elgamal. They are all approximately of the same strength. There are also a wide variety of advantages and disadvantages. Frequently, these are the same. For example, in RSA encryption and signatures are the same, which is simple, but leads to some hygenic problems. A signature-only system like DSA is less flexible, but easier to export, and enforces good key hygene (meaning that it is bad practice to use the same key for signatures as for encryption). I could go on with a discussion of all this, but this thread is already off-topic for this mailing list. Feel free to mail me privately or phone. You see I am very confused right now and I have the feeling that all my security theories woun�t match with those used in PGP. There are many good reasons for being confused. One of the most important ones is that there really aren't a lot of differences between the systems. They are all trying to solve the same problem, but each has a slightly different slant to it. I really would appreciate it if there would be someone helping my to remove all that dust of my mind... Thank you in advance You're welcome. Jon ----- Jon Callas jon at pgp.com CTO, Total Network Security 3965 Freedom Circle Network Associates, Inc. Santa Clara, CA 95054 (408) 346-5860 Fingerprints: D1EC 3C51 FCB1 67F8 4345 4A04 7DF9 C2E6 F129 27A9 (DSS) 665B 797F 37D1 C240 53AC 6D87 3A60 4628 (RSA) From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 24 16:37:45 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:37:45 +0800 Subject: Limit on number of primes....a (stupid) idiot... Message-ID: <199811250002.BAA20907@replay.com> Jim Choate is so stupid that even when he accidentally gets something right, he quickly "corrects" himself so that he is wrong again: > I had typed x/ln(x) as the asymptotic limit for the number of primes less > than x. > > This is incorrect. It should be, > > x/log(x) Wrong, doofus. x/ln(x) is the correct asymptotic limit. What role could logs to the base 10 possibly play? Do you think God favors the number 10? What a fool you are! From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 24 16:58:23 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:58:23 +0800 Subject: Pi(x) - How many primes below x? Message-ID: <199811250025.SAA27462@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.utm.edu/research/primes/howmany.shtml#pi_def > Consequence Three: The chance of a random integer x being prime is > about 1/log(x) > 1.1. pi(x) is the number of primes less than or equal to x > [up] 2. The Prime Number Theorem: approximating pi(x) > > Even though the distribution of primes seems random (there are > (probably) infinitely many twin primes and there are (definitely) > arbitrarily large gaps between primes), the function pi(x) is > surprisingly well behaved: In fact, it has been proved (see the next > section) that: > > The Prime Number Theorem: The number of primes not exceeding x is > asymptotic to x/log x. > > In terms of pi(x) we would write: > > The Prime Number Theorem: pi(x) ~ x/log x. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com Tue Nov 24 17:02:32 1998 From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (chat-register at yahoo-inc.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:02:32 +0800 Subject: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat Message-ID: <199811250004.QAA06009@e4.yahoo.com> Welcome to Yahoo! Please save this message for future reference. This confirmation message is sent to all users when they create a new account with Yahoo. During registration we require users to enter their email address. This confirmation notice is then sent to that address. If you DID NOT request this account, we encourage you to REMOVE it by doing the following: If your email software supports it, you can simply click on the link below. 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All Yahoo! information is paid for through advertising. Q. What if I forget my Yahoo! ID or password A. Just click on the Help is Here link at the bottom of the login page. We'll ask you some basic questions to confirm your identity, then send you the information to the email address listed in your account. Q. How do I change my password or Yahoo! ID? If you would like to change your Yahoo Password in My Yahoo!, just click Acct Info at the top of the page. Unfortunately, we do not have the ability to change your Yahoo! ID. You will have to create a new account if you wish to have a new Yahoo! ID. Please note that if you do re-register, you will need to re-set all of your preferences for your My Yahoo! and other Yahoo! personalized services. Q. What is an Alias? A. Under your Yahoo! ID, you may add additional names for use in our various services, such as Chat and Classifieds. Q. How is the Yahoo! ID stored? A. Your Yahoo! ID is stored as a cookie on your computer. This way, you only need to login once. If you upgrade your computer software, change computers, delete your internet files, or click Sign Out at any time, it will clear the cookie from the computer's hard drive. Just return to the login page and enter your Yahoo! ID and Yahoo Password in the spaces provided and click Sign In to restore the information. You do not need to register again. Q. I use a public terminal, how do I sign out? A. If you are using a public computer, you should always sign out to clear your Yahoo! ID and cookie from the computer's hard drive. Just click the Sign Out button or link near the top of the main page. Thank you for using Yahoo! [208.198.164.2] From webmaster at afterfive.com Tue Nov 24 17:10:47 1998 From: webmaster at afterfive.com (Sabres Webmaster) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:10:47 +0800 Subject: Buffalo Sabres Chat Registration Message-ID: <9811250036.AA24783@exchange.afterfive.com> Following is your Chat information (Please save this info!) ----------------------------------- username: cpunk password: 4199 Remember, the username and password are both CASE SENSITIVE! From register at oreg-r01.web.aol.com Tue Nov 24 18:15:24 1998 From: register at oreg-r01.web.aol.com (Netscape AOL Instant Messenger) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:15:24 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohelsux) Message-ID: <365BA4CD@oreg-r01.web.aol.com> Thank you for registering for Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! Your registration for screen name aohelsux has been received. Please reply to this message within 48 hours to complete the registration process. Simply reply to the present message and type 'OK' as the text of your message. From coins at registered-e-mail.com Wed Nov 25 10:27:51 1998 From: coins at registered-e-mail.com (coins at registered-e-mail.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:27:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why should I buy Gold Coins? Message-ID: /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// If you wish to be removed from our future mailings, please reply with "Remove" in the subject header and our software will automatically block you from our future mailings. If you do not care for this type of advertising, we apologize for the intrusion. We do, however, thank you for your time. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Many serious investors have chosen Coins because they want not only the highest profit potential, but Liquidity, Security and Privacy. The Coin market is free of Governmental Regulations. By current Law, Numismatic Coins cannot be confiscated. The classic Supply and Demand formula is in full swing with Money coming out of the Stock Market and being Directed into Rare Coins. The upside potential offers Collectors and Investors the Opportunity to see Substantial Growth over the next 3 - 5 years. Whether your interest is to Buy, Sell or Trade, we would like to be your Rare Coin & Precious Metals Dealer. For more information, or for a free Appraisal and/or Newsletter, please e-mail us at coins at registered-e-mail.com with "coin info" as the Subject. From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 24 19:13:09 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:13:09 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohelsux) Message-ID: <199811250241.DAA01847@replay.com> This does wonders for my opinion of AOL. Even the administration has no clue. AOL administration spammed the Cypherpunks list, using an address for Cypherpunks which has been defunct for over a year now, with: >Thank you for registering for Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! > >Your registration for screen name aohelsux has been received. > >Please reply to this message within 48 hours to complete >the registration process. Simply reply to the present message >and type 'OK' as the text of your message. P.S. "Well they just responded to an address someone gave them," like certain advocates of AOL, lamers, and Microsoft we have on the list have said, is not an excuse. It's easy to set up domain validation. The spammers just don't care. From bmm at minder.net Tue Nov 24 19:13:49 1998 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:13:49 +0800 Subject: Announce - "Registration" Mail List Message-ID: In order to relieve the CDR list of some of the flood of "You have successfully registered" messages, and because some people feel there is a need for such a thing, I have created a new mailing list for the specific purpose of being used for registering for online services, reg at minder.net. Subject lines of mail from the list with be prepended with "[r]" for easy filtering, whether automated or by eye. It is a majordomo list, so those who are familiar with majordomo can subscribe in the usual fashion. For those who are not familar with majordomo, to subscribe send a message to "majordomo at minder.net" with "subscribe reg" (without the quotes) in the body of the message. Cheers, -Brian From PaulMerrill at acm.org Tue Nov 24 19:41:17 1998 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:41:17 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohelsux) In-Reply-To: <199811250241.DAA01847@replay.com> Message-ID: <365B735E.4E839979@ACM.Org> Again, some clueless asshole that can't tell the difference between solicited responses and Unsolicited spam mouths off. If you would like to talk about someone, talk about the jerk who set up an AIM name using the outdated address, not the company that repsonded. PHM AKA PHMerrill at AOL.Com (among other names and addresses) Anonymous wrote: > > This does wonders for my opinion of AOL. Even the administration has no clue. > > AOL administration spammed the Cypherpunks list, using > an address for Cypherpunks which has been defunct for over a year now, with: > > >Thank you for registering for Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! > > > >Your registration for screen name aohelsux has been received. > > > >Please reply to this message within 48 hours to complete > >the registration process. Simply reply to the present message > >and type 'OK' as the text of your message. > > P.S. "Well they just responded to an address someone gave them," like > certain advocates of AOL, lamers, and Microsoft we have on the list have > said, is not an excuse. It's easy to set up domain validation. The spammers > just don't care. From nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl Tue Nov 24 20:58:22 1998 From: nobody at sind.hyperreal.art.pl (HyperReal-Anon) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:58:22 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohelsux) Message-ID: <6ece424b07b03e6b239e826cfb06531d@anonymous> >Thank you for registering for Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! Hey Tim, do you have a spare semi-auto I can borrow? You'll get it back if AOL's security is as low as their intelligence. From nobody at nowhere.to Tue Nov 24 21:00:26 1998 From: nobody at nowhere.to (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:00:26 +0800 Subject: Y2K Report Card Message-ID: <50a20d7167d9f00b008bf7c81c8b6ee0@anonymous> AGENCIES GET NEW REPORT CARDS ON Y2K READINESS Saying "the picture is a gloomy one," Congressman Stephen Horn, chair of the House subcommittee responsible for overseeing government progress on averting the Y2K problem, has given out new report cards to federal agencies. Three departments flunked: Justice; Health & Human Services; and State. The Defense Department gets a D-minus. Three departments get A grades: Small Business Administration; Social Security Administration; and the National Science Foundation. The Social Security Administration began working on the problem in 1989, eight years before most other government agencies. - USA Today, Nov. 24, 1998 From nobody at replay.com Tue Nov 24 21:37:49 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:37:49 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohelsux) Message-ID: <199811250510.GAA13692@replay.com> >Again, some clueless asshole that can't tell the difference between >solicited responses and Unsolicited spam mouths off. If you would like >to talk about someone, talk about the jerk who set up an AIM name using >the outdated address, not the company that repsonded. > >PHM > >AKA PHMerrill at AOL.Com (among other names and addresses) Again, the clueless asshole known as Paul *H.* Merrill jumps up and defends AOL, incompetently-written web sites, and morons everywhere. Someone told AOL to mail cypherpunks at toad.com. AOL could have checked to see if the originating site was under the toad.com domain. This is trivial. They didn't. It's rather easy to just require that somebody trying to mail an address under the toad.com domain submit the request from an address under toad.com. In other words, Paul, you believe that if somebody goes and types your address into some system and asks it to send you 512MB of MPEG video, that's okay because it was solicited. It wasn't solicited by you but somebody solicited it. Oops. That's "blatent propoganda." I'd better rephrase. In other words, Paul, you believe that if somebody goes and types YOUR address into fifty different systems, signs you up for a bunch of mailing lists, and generally causes you a lot of inconvenience, that's okay because it was solicited. You don't know who it was solicited by, but somebody obviously did. If you then object to the sites sending you mail rather than just silently unsubscribing yourself every week, are you then just 'some clueless asshole'? Are spammers now not to be held accountable for their spamming because they bought a list of addresses from someone who claimed that the people all asked to be on the mailing list? Why don't we just sign Cypherpunks up for Ignition-Point, the FP list, the ACLU action advisories, Sixdegrees, and whatever else we can find? Or should We just sign up Paul, really, because he doesn't have a problem with this. In fact I'm sure we could make some 'marketting research' to show that he might be interested. Hey let's get the entire CDR subscription list and sign everybody up for FP and ACLU because if you're on Cypherpunks you're obviously interested in those things. The root of the problem is sites which require email addresses for no good reason, and/or don't have the decency to perform a simple check to see if the domains match. They're lazy. They're irresponsible. When confronted, no matter how civil, they react much like you do, Paul, and they don't want to be inconvenienced by having to fix their usually badly-designed web sites. If I recall correctly Tim has the same opinion and has stated it a few times as have others so I'm not alone. Now I leave you, Paul, so you can go back to your 24 hour vigil and you and your quick response team can scour the net for attacks against AOL and the true clueless assholes, and defend them with your last breath. Yet Another 'Clueless Asshole' From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 24 22:01:24 1998 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:01:24 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohels Message-ID: <19981125052004.20490.qmail@nym.alias.net> Do you even bother to read the posts you try to flame? Read the last part of that. Paul H. Merrill wrote: > >Again, some clueless asshole that can't tell the difference between >solicited responses and Unsolicited spam mouths off. If you would like >to talk about someone, talk about the jerk who set up an AIM name using >the outdated address, not the company that repsonded. > >PHM > >AKA PHMerrill at AOL.Com (among other names and addresses) > >Anonymous wrote: >> >> This does wonders for my opinion of AOL. Even the administration has no clue. >> >> AOL administration spammed the Cypherpunks list, using >> an address for Cypherpunks which has been defunct for over a year now, with: >> >> >Thank you for registering for Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! >> > >> >Your registration for screen name aohelsux has been received. >> > >> >Please reply to this message within 48 hours to complete >> >the registration process. Simply reply to the present message >> >and type 'OK' as the text of your message. >> >> P.S. "Well they just responded to an address someone gave them," like >> certain advocates of AOL, lamers, and Microsoft we have on the list have >> said, is not an excuse. It's easy to set up domain validation. The spammers >> just don't care. From usa150 at mail.mcafee.com Wed Nov 25 00:18:04 1998 From: usa150 at mail.mcafee.com (Tom Jud - US 5-200 Sales) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:18:04 +0800 Subject: NAI Special offers to expire Soon Message-ID: <199811250730.XAA22029@mail.mcafee.com> Call Today To Receive A FREE Nuts & Bolt's '98 CD! TOTAL VIRUS DEFENSE THE NEXT GENERATION Total Virus Defense (TVD) will be a truly integrated product line combining the best of Network Associates and Dr. Solomon's anti-virus technology. The integration of Network Associates and Dr. Solomon's technologies will also yield the most compelling set of central management tools ever offered by a single anti-virus vendor. Our new Total Virus Defense line will offer superior integrated solutions all three of the most critical virus management issues: Simple initial deployment of anti-virus products, Easy central configuration by domain or individual machine, and a Fully automated update and upgrade process. 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In the Phillipines call: NEXUS (632)759 6630 and ask for Melody, Jenny or Joey Or ICS (632)721 4502 and ask for Mona In Malaysia call: MCSB Systems (M)Bhd at +603-241-6922 and ask for Lilly or Tele-Sales or Persoft Systems Sdn Bhd at +603-711-8711 and ask for Leong King Ping/Lim Soe Cheng In Singapore call Iverson Computer Associates Pte Ltd at +65-378-7116 and ask for Herni or Worldtech Technologies Pte Ltd at +65-352-1955 and ask for Angie From jim.burnes at ssds.com Wed Nov 25 00:18:07 1998 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes - Denver) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:18:07 +0800 Subject: Y2K Report Card In-Reply-To: <50a20d7167d9f00b008bf7c81c8b6ee0@anonymous> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Anonymous wrote: > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:55:01 +0900 (JST) > From: Anonymous > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Y2K Report Card > > AGENCIES GET NEW REPORT CARDS ON Y2K READINESS > > > Saying "the picture is a gloomy one," Congressman > Stephen Horn, chair of the House subcommittee > responsible for overseeing government progress on > averting the Y2K problem, has given out new report > cards to federal agencies. Three departments > flunked: Justice; Health & Human Services; and > State. Wonder what the implications of this are? > The Defense Department gets a D-minus. So this means they flunked too. Since having the DOD non compliant could be a national security risk. That means they flunked, but we couldn't say so. How many nukes are going to be checking the number of days since they last talked to launch control? What are the chances they are date sensitive? What happens if they should lose contact for greater than a certain number of days? Do they assume we've been nuked? How about the russians? The Chinese? What if the entire US DOD C&C network goes down. Is it an EMP? Is it infowar? Is it Y2K? > Three departments get A grades: Small Business > Administration; Social Security Administration; > and the National Science Foundation. Was this graded on a curve? ;-O I thought SSA was still two years off target. > The Social > Security Administration began working on the > problem in 1989, eight years before most other > government agencies. > This A/B/C/D/F stuff worked in school, but on a complex remediation effort doesn't really mean anything. Is that an 'A' for effort? jim From Frank.Brueckner at mch.sni.de Wed Nov 25 00:19:58 1998 From: Frank.Brueckner at mch.sni.de (Frank Brueckner) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:19:58 +0800 Subject: OpenPGP / S/MIME Interoperability In-Reply-To: <199811242259.WAA04469@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <365BB786.4C2E2448@mch.sni.de> Adam Back reported that Jon Callas wrote: > [...] there is no reason why you can't have PGP > messages backed by X.509 certificates, and it is trivial to use S/MIME > with OpenPGP certificates. I'm planning on writing a short > informational RFC on how to do it once we all get RFC numbers for our > respective systems. It wouldn't be bad to include this activity in the discussion hosted by . Am I right ? Regards Frank Br�ckner Siemens Information and Communication Networks Directory Team http://www.siemensmeta.com/ From P.Hinsberger at globus.net Wed Nov 25 02:29:28 1998 From: P.Hinsberger at globus.net (Patrick Hinsberger ) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:29:28 +0800 Subject: buttsniffer Message-ID: <365BCFF0.388EBD13@globus.net> Hi folk! Anybody knows how to use Buttsniffer? I can listen to ethernet frames in our network, but after a few minutes I`ve got a huge File with over 50MB... I read that there is an option to listen only to POP3 password and so funny things... At the moment I listen the network with the options : buttsniff -d 0002 pws.txt e Please mail me directly!!! ThanX (and Sorry for my fucKKK English!!!) - at HiNSe@- � � From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 25 06:28:35 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:28:35 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! (fwd) Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Good thing I keep all my money in a steel case buried somewhere along the Appalachian trail. No bank accounts, no credit cards. Ken Williams Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/ E.H.A.P. Head of Operations http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org NC State CS Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ _____________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:56:41 -0700 (MST) From: mea culpa To: InfoSec News Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! >From: ISPI Clips 6.51 >From: WorldNetDaily, November 23, 1998 Big Brother Banks? FDIC has snooping plans http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981123_xex_big_brother_.shtml David M. Bresnahan, David at talkusa.com Contributing Editor, WorldNetDaily Are you a potential criminal? Are you a threat to banks, airlines, a potential spy, or perhaps an IRS tax protester? The government would like to know and they are about to force banks to be their detectives. The federal government wants banks to investigate you. Soon your banker will know more about you than anyone else in town. Banks must not only determine your correct identity, they must also know how you make your money, and how you spend it. Once you establish a pattern of deposits and withdrawals, banks must inform federal agencies when you deviate. Bank customers may soon find themselves explaining to the FBI, Internal Revenue Service, and the Drug Enforcement Agency why they made a $15,000 deposit to their bank account. According to current Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation plans, banks will soon establish "profiles" of their customers and report deviations from those profiles. If you sell a car, for example, and place the proceeds in your account while you shop for a new one, a red flag may go off in the bank computer. Such a situation puts law abiding citizens in a situation where they must prove they are innocent, says Scott McDonald of the watchdog group Fight the Fingerprint. An uproar from grass roots Americans is the only thing that will stop the current plans for the FDIC "Know Your Customer" program, according to McDonald. His organization has led the charge against the national ID, medical ID, and computerized information about private aspects of people's lives. A recent announcement by the FDIC provides for citizen comment prior to implementation of their new banking regulations. The deadline for comments is Dec. 27, 1998. "The FDIC is proposing to issue a regulation requiring insured nonmember banks to develop and maintain 'Know Your Customer' programs," according to a recent FDIC information package sent to Congress to provide notice of proposed rulemaking, and to banks for comment. "As proposed," the 29-page FDIC document begins, "the regulation would require each nonmember bank to develop a program designed to determine the identity of its customers; determine its customers' source of funds; determine the normal and expected transactions of its customers; monitor account activity for transactions that are inconsistent with those normal and expected transactions; and report anytransactions of its customers that are determined to be suspicious, in accordance with the FDIC's existing suspicious activity reporting regulation. By requiring insured nonmember banks to determine the identity of their customers, as well as to obtain knowledge regarding the legitimate activities of their customers, the proposed regulation will reduce the likelihood that insured nonmember banks will become unwitting participants in illicit activities conducted or attempted by their customers. It will also level the playing field between institutions that already have adopted formal 'Know Your Customer' programs and those that have not." Many banks across the country have already begun to implement such programs, according to the FDIC. A quick search of the Internet found many stories in press accounts of problems reported at such banks. There have been a number of stories dealing with banks requiring fingerprints to open accounts and to cash checks. There are several lawsuits presently underway testing the right of banks to make that requirement. McDonald has been fighting that issue, along with fingerprints on driver's licenses for some time. He pointed out the many errors found on credit reports and suggested that banks will soon make similar errors when they begin creating profiles of their customers. The FDIC is selling the planned regulations by pointing out the need for prevention of financial and other crime. "By identifying and, when appropriate, reporting such transactions in accordance with existing suspicious activity reporting requirements, financial institutions are protecting their integrity and are assisting the efforts of the financial institution regulatory agencies and law enforcement authorities to combat illicit activities at such institutions," says the FDIC. The proposed regulation is, according to FDIC spokesperson Carol A. Mesheske, authorized by current law. It comes from the statutory authority granted the FDIC under section 8(s)(1) of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act (12 U.S.C. 18189s)(1), as amended by section 259(a)(2) of the Crime Control Act of 1990 (Pub. L. 101-647). The FDIC claims that the law requires them to develop regulations to require banks to "establish and maintain internal procedures reasonably designed to ensure and monitor compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act. Effective 'Know Your Customer' programs serve to facilitate compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act." The proposed regulations will mandate that all banks insured by the FDIC must maintain an intelligence gathering department that screens out customers and keeps an eye on existing customers. Before you decide to move your money to a credit union, you should know that the FDIC is not the only federal organization making such plans. "Each of the other Federal bank supervisory agencies is proposing to adopt substantially identical regulations covering state member and national banks, federally-chartered branches and agencies of foreign banks, savings associations, and credit unions. There also have been discussions with the Federal regulators of non-bank financial institutions, such as broker-dealers, concerning the need to propose similar rules governing the activities of these non-bank institutions," reports FDIC attorney Karn L. Main in the proposal. The purposes for the regulation are to protect the reputation of the banks, to facilitate compliance with the law, to improve safe and sound banking practices, and to protect banks from being used by criminals as a vehicle for illegal activities. Current customers will be subjected to the new regulation in the same way new customers will be scrutinized. The FDIC does not wish to permit any loop hole which would leave any bank customer unidentified or unsupervised. Each bank will create profiles. The first profile will determine the amount of risk a potential customer might present by opening an account. The system of profiling potential customers will be different from one bank to the next, since the FDIC does not provide a uniform program. The purpose of the profile is to identify potential customers who might use a bank account for funds obtained through criminal activity. The next profile will be one that is used by automated computers to determine when suspicious activity is taking place in an account. When activity in the account does not fit the profile, banks will notify federal authorities so they can investigate. Banks are expected to identify their customers, determine normal and expected transactions, monitor account transactions, and determine if a particular transaction should be reported. The FDIC has sent copies of the proposal to all banks and is asking for input. The questions asked by the FDIC in the proposal do not From declan at well.com Wed Nov 25 07:16:24 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:16:24 +0800 Subject: Y2K Report Card In-Reply-To: <50a20d7167d9f00b008bf7c81c8b6ee0@anonymous> Message-ID: <199811251438.GAA17901@smtp.well.com> At 12:45 AM 11-25-98 -0700, Jim Burnes - Denver wrote: >> cards to federal agencies. Three departments >> flunked: Justice; Health & Human Services; and >> State. > >Wonder what the implications of this are? HHS? Think Medicare, Medicaid, etc. -Declan From nobody at replay.com Wed Nov 25 07:47:18 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:47:18 +0800 Subject: Nuts & Bolts: the ultimate trojan horse Message-ID: <199811251509.QAA22018@replay.com> At 11:30 PM 11/24/98 -0800, Tom Jud - US 5-200 Sales wrote: > >Call Today >To Receive A FREE Nuts & Bolt's '98 CD! What a perfect Trojan cover. A program that's *supposed* to scan your disk, and *supposed* to dial home for "updates". And its free, too! From register at oreg-r01.web.aol.com Wed Nov 25 07:54:29 1998 From: register at oreg-r01.web.aol.com (Netscape AOL Instant Messenger) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:54:29 +0800 Subject: Welcome to Netscape AOL Instant Messenger (AIM)! Message-ID: <365C4502@oreg-r01.web.aol.com> Welcome to Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! Thank you for confirming your Netscape AOL Instant Messenger account. We're glad you've joined the fastest growing Internet online community in the world. To help maintain an online environment that you feel comfortable with, you can set your own buddy controls. You can decide who can see if you're online as well as who can and can't get in touch with you while online. For your convenience, your controls have been initially set to allow other users to contact you online if they know either your e-mail address or your screen name. You may change your buddy controls any time when signed on to Netscape AOL Instant Messenger by doing the following: (On Windows): 1) Click on the "Netscape AOL Instant Messenger" button and select "Options" 2) Select "Edit Preferences" 3) Click on the "Controls" tab By entering the screennames of people for whom you would like to set special control settings (e.g., "block" the following users from contacting me or "allow" the following users to contact me) - you can maintain an online environment that is comfortable for you. In the future, you can change your settings by returning to the "Controls" area. Thanks for joining Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! Now you can instantly chat with your AOL and Internet friends with real-time text messages! You can even add your Internet friends to your Buddy List group. It's easy and it's FREE! Remember, to communicate instantly with friends on Internet, they have to register for Netscape AOL Instant Messenger too. Invite your friends to register by sending them a personalized invitation! Sending an invitation encouraging your friends to join is quick and convenient. All you have to do is the following: 1. Sign on to Netscape AOL Instant Messenger. 2. Click the "Netscape AOL Instant Messenger" button and select "Sign On A Friend." 3. Enter the e-mail addresses of your friends and co-workers. We'll send them an invitation -- personalized by you -- inviting them to join the Netscape AOL Instant Messenger service. For help and additional information, please visit our website http://www.netscape.com. For quick tips on getting started with Netscape AOL Instant Messenger, see the information below. See you in cyberspace! ------------------------------------------- Quick Tips on Getting Started ------------------------------------------- Signing On to Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Once you've registered, downloaded, and installed Netscape AOL Instant Messenger, you're ready to start using it. Here's what you need to do to sign on (the following instructions apply to Windows 95/NT): 1. First, make sure that you're connected to the Internet via your Internet Service Provider, school, or office network. 2. Launch Netscape AOL Instant Messenger by double-clicking the AOL Instant Messenger program icon. (If you aren't sure how to locate Netscape AOL Instant Messenger, click the Start menu and then select Programs. From Programs, select AOL Instant Messenger and then the AOL Instant Messenger program icon.) 3. When you see the "Sign On" window, type or select the screen name and password you chose during registration in the space provided and click the "Sign On" button. 4. Netscape AOL Instant Messenger will then sign you on. Setting Up Your Buddy List Once signed on, you'll see the main Netscape AOL Instant Messenger window which contains two tabs: a box with names in it, and a row of buttons at the bottom. This box is your Buddy List window, and it shows you the screen names of your buddies online. Your Buddy List window will have three sample groups that you can use to begin organizing your buddies: 1) Buddies; 2) Family, and 3) Co-Workers. (You can change the names of these groups by highlighting the group name and typing over it - or just add new ones.) Personalize your Buddy List by adding your friends' screen names. To add a new buddy, click on the "List Setup" tab, click the "Add Buddy" button, and type a friend's screen name. Do this for each buddy you want to add. To add a new group, click the "Add Group" button, and type the name of the new group (like "soccer team"). Once you've added your buddies, click the "Online" tab. If you can't remember someone's screen name, use the "Find a Buddy" function to first see if the person is a registered Netscape AOL Instant Messenger ser or not. If the person is a registered user, you can look up his or her screen name here. Sending Your Buddy an Instant Message When you see a buddy's name in your Buddy List, it means the person is online and that you can send your buddy an Instant Message (which is a private, personalized, text message). There are two ways to send an Instant Message: 1) Double-click on your buddy's screen name, and a "Send Instant Message" window will appear. Type your message in the bottom part of the window, and click "Send." Or, 2) Highlight your buddy's screen name and click on the "IM" button. (If your buddy's screen name is not on your Buddy List group, then click on the "IM" button and type in his or her screen name and a message.) Either way, after clicking the "Send" button, your message will "pop up" on your buddy's computer screen. Then your buddy can send messages back to you for an instant, private, one-to-one chat. From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 25 07:54:48 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:54:48 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811251500.JAA10213@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:00:29 -0600 (CST) >> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" >> To: Ken Williams >> Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com >> Subject: Re: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! (fwd) >> >> Ken Williams wrote: >> > >> > >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> > >> > >> > Good thing I keep all my money in a steel case buried somewhere >> > along the Appalachian trail. No bank accounts, no credit cards. >> >> That may be good, but your decision is not costless. You are losing >> all the interest that could accrue on the money and it is constantly >> diminished by inflation. >> >> Is it worth it? It's your call, but I do not see what you do as something >> that is unquestionably wise. >> >> igor Hi, Actually, the interest that would be earned through savings accounts and/or any other bank-related investments is insignificant when compared to returns on business investments that can be made without the interference of the banks and government agencies. FYI, I was kidding about the money in the steel case on the App Trail, but I really do not have any bank accounts or credit cards. I have yet to find an honest banker/bank that can be trusted. Ken -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNlwe6ZDw1ZsNz1IXAQHR8ggAsozCBphanXiW0ydJk7XJCrEWPib2uTX4 2Y+9KpZoFIc7rMvTrdABv9mTwtY3HgtzNOptQcl/hF0oD1Z2i3+YELRI+4xDu+Qe vh/9KATLj3bqfUJ7BC2AmQVqK3rpf5MjL8p5x1dpGvDLRU3tW+FQJBi8trfX7pRg fZVj5V1Ck8VqZhT80LXmewgTlgKlNQIQQzkozFkFtf9jEbjJW4mkWjZErElKFgPn fGTQKslKK95bb6KQEpS/9Lx1TcRBxSeUnKn8u/TYuTN8Q/NfqiSU+VWMN2+3HGMZ /qUyy34LTcsgu0N9wNj5NBnHdQ7Cd23aPttJT1ZmRTo+rVe6BGuZIQ== =Mvxn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Wed Nov 25 07:57:01 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:57:01 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811251500.JAA10213@manifold.algebra.com> Ken Williams wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Good thing I keep all my money in a steel case buried somewhere > along the Appalachian trail. No bank accounts, no credit cards. That may be good, but your decision is not costless. You are losing all the interest that could accrue on the money and it is constantly diminished by inflation. Is it worth it? It's your call, but I do not see what you do as something that is unquestionably wise. igor > Ken Williams > > Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/ > E.H.A.P. Head of Operations http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org > NC State CS Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu > PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ > > _____________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov > > > - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:56:41 -0700 (MST) > From: mea culpa > To: InfoSec News > Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! > > > >From: ISPI Clips 6.51 > >From: WorldNetDaily, November 23, 1998 > > Big Brother Banks? FDIC has snooping plans > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981123_xex_big_brother_.shtml > David M. Bresnahan, David at talkusa.com > Contributing Editor, WorldNetDaily > > Are you a potential criminal? Are you a threat to banks, airlines, a > potential spy, or perhaps an IRS tax protester? The government would like > to know and they are about to force banks to be their detectives. > > The federal government wants banks to investigate you. Soon your banker > will know more about you than anyone else in town. Banks must not only > determine your correct identity, they must also know how you make your > money, and how you spend it. Once you establish a pattern of deposits and > withdrawals, banks must inform federal agencies when you deviate. > > Bank customers may soon find themselves explaining to the FBI, Internal > Revenue Service, and the Drug Enforcement Agency why they made a $15,000 > deposit to their bank account. According to current Federal Deposit > Insurance Corporation plans, banks will soon establish "profiles" of their > customers and report deviations from those profiles. > > If you sell a car, for example, and place the proceeds in your account > while you shop for a new one, a red flag may go off in the bank computer. > Such a situation puts law abiding citizens in a situation where they must > prove they are innocent, says Scott McDonald of the watchdog group Fight > the Fingerprint. > > An uproar from grass roots Americans is the only thing that will stop the > current plans for the FDIC "Know Your Customer" program, according to > McDonald. His organization has led the charge against the national ID, > medical ID, and computerized information about private aspects of people's > lives. > > A recent announcement by the FDIC provides for citizen comment prior to > implementation of their new banking regulations. The deadline for comments > is Dec. 27, 1998. > > "The FDIC is proposing to issue a regulation requiring insured nonmember > banks to develop and maintain 'Know Your Customer' programs," according to > a recent FDIC information package sent to Congress to provide notice of > proposed rulemaking, and to banks for comment. > > "As proposed," the 29-page FDIC document begins, "the regulation would > require each nonmember bank to develop a program designed to determine the > identity of its customers; determine its customers' source of funds; > determine the normal and expected transactions of its customers; monitor > account activity for transactions that are inconsistent with those normal > and expected transactions; and report anytransactions of its customers > that are determined to be suspicious, in accordance with the FDIC's > existing suspicious activity reporting regulation. By requiring insured > nonmember banks to determine the identity of their customers, as well as > to obtain knowledge regarding the legitimate activities of their > customers, the proposed regulation will reduce the likelihood that insured > nonmember banks will become unwitting participants in illicit activities > conducted or attempted by their customers. It will also level the playing > field between institutions that already have adopted formal 'Know Your > Customer' programs and those that have not." > > Many banks across the country have already begun to implement such > programs, according to the FDIC. A quick search of the Internet found many > stories in press accounts of problems reported at such banks. There have > been a number of stories dealing with banks requiring fingerprints to open > accounts and to cash checks. There are several lawsuits presently underway > testing the right of banks to make that requirement. > > McDonald has been fighting that issue, along with fingerprints on driver's > licenses for some time. He pointed out the many errors found on credit > reports and suggested that banks will soon make similar errors when they > begin creating profiles of their customers. > > The FDIC is selling the planned regulations by pointing out the need for > prevention of financial and other crime. > > "By identifying and, when appropriate, reporting such transactions in > accordance with existing suspicious activity reporting requirements, > financial institutions are protecting their integrity and are assisting > the efforts of the financial institution regulatory agencies and law > enforcement authorities to combat illicit activities at such > institutions," says the FDIC. > > The proposed regulation is, according to FDIC spokesperson Carol A. > Mesheske, authorized by current law. It comes from the statutory authority > granted the FDIC under section 8(s)(1) of the Federal Deposit Insurance > Act (12 U.S.C. 18189s)(1), as amended by section 259(a)(2) of the Crime > Control Act of 1990 (Pub. L. 101-647). > > The FDIC claims that the law requires them to develop regulations to > require banks to "establish and maintain internal procedures reasonably > designed to ensure and monitor compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act. > Effective 'Know Your Customer' programs serve to facilitate compliance > with the Bank Secrecy Act." > > The proposed regulations will mandate that all banks insured by the FDIC > must maintain an intelligence gathering department that screens out > customers and keeps an eye on existing customers. Before you decide to > move your money to a credit union, you should know that the FDIC is not > the only federal organization making such plans. > > "Each of the other Federal bank supervisory agencies is proposing to adopt > substantially identical regulations covering state member and national > banks, federally-chartered branches and agencies of foreign banks, savings > associations, and credit unions. There also have been discussions with the > Federal regulators of non-bank financial institutions, such as > broker-dealers, concerning the need to propose similar rules governing the > activities of these non-bank institutions," reports FDIC attorney Karn L. > Main in the proposal. > > The purposes for the regulation are to protect the reputation of the > banks, to facilitate compliance with the law, to improve safe and sound > banking practices, and to protect banks from being used by criminals as a > vehicle for illegal activities. > > Current customers will be subjected to the new regulation in the same way > new customers will be scrutinized. The FDIC does not wish to permit any > loop hole which would leave any bank customer unidentified or > unsupervised. > > Each bank will create profiles. The first profile will determine the > amount of risk a potential customer might present by opening an account. > The system of profiling potential customers will be different from one > bank to the next, since the FDIC does not provide a uniform program. The > purpose of the profile is to identify potential customers who might use a > bank account for funds obtained through criminal activity. > > The next profile will be one that is used by automated computers to > determine when suspicious activity is taking place in an account. When > activity in the account does not fit the profile, banks will notify > federal authorities so they can investigate. > > Banks are expected to identify their customers, determine normal and > expected transactions, monitor account transactions, and determine if a > particular transaction should be reported. > > The FDIC has sent copies of the proposal to all banks and is asking for > input. The questions asked by the FDIC in the proposal do not > - Igor. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 25 09:41:58 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:41:58 +0800 Subject: Is Open Source safe? [Linux Weekly News] In-Reply-To: <36595F29.C39B997A@brd.ie> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981124135414.008dec10@idiom.com> >Frank O'Dwyer opines: >>Yes it does, but not quite in the same way. For example, I believe that >>in days of yore some attackers managed to insert a back door into some >>DEC OS by breaking into the coding environment (I don't recall the >>details, does anyone else?). At 09:43 AM 11/23/98 -0800, Martin Minow wrote: > describes how the inventors >of Unix inserted a backdoor into the Unix login program. It's well >worth reading. However, there is no indication that this trojan >horse ever shipped to customers. Well, try logging in as "ken", and I think the password was "nih" :-) (At least when I was starting my Unix career, it was still common to have logins "ken" and "dmr" around as a courtesy, though eventually computer security changed that practice.) Also, mixing up DEC and Unix has long tradition; back in 1979, there was an article in one of the Oakland or SF papers about "Hackers at Berkeley" cracking security on "the Unix, a computer made by DEC", which was really about abusing answerback on VT100s. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 25 10:01:30 1998 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 02:01:30 +0800 Subject: NSA Scientific Advisory Board Message-ID: <199811251725.MAA14239@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> The NSA Scientific Advisory Board has been functioning since 1953: http://jya.com/nsa-sab97.htm The 1997 annual report briefly describes what it does and what it costs to do it. However, its closed meetings are not announced in the Federal Register as required by regulations governing such FACA orgs. Names of members, minutes and studies are not available. We've made a request for info to the NSA office which handles the matter (301) 688-6449. Any information on the board would be welcome. Skimpy annual reports on the NSA SAB, like the one for 1997 above, as well as for all other federal advisory committees, from 1972 to 1997 are available at: http://policyworks.gov/org/main/mc/index-r.htm From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 25 10:05:18 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 02:05:18 +0800 Subject: Dr. Strangelove on the Y2K Opportunity In-Reply-To: <50a20d7167d9f00b008bf7c81c8b6ee0@anonymous> Message-ID: At 11:45 PM -0800 11/24/98, Jim Burnes - Denver wrote: >How many nukes are going to be checking the number >of days since they last talked to launch control? >What are the chances they are date sensitive? >What happens if they should lose contact for >greater than a certain number of days? Do they >assume we've been nuked? How about the russians? >The Chinese? What if the entire US DOD C&C network >goes down. Is it an EMP? Is it infowar? Is it >Y2K? (in best Dr. Strangelove German accent) Ah, but vat vud be ze point of a system designed to automatically respond to a decapitation of command attack, you see, if it could not independently decide that it must implement its emergency war orders? Vy vud ve have programmed them if not to let their processors decide? Zat ist der beauty von dem system, mein fellow Cypherpunks! (Dr. Strangelove can no longer restrain his excitement and rolls out of the room in his wheelchair.) Hundreds of missile silos, dozens of submarines...all with densepacked code written in the 60s by persons long retired or dead. All potentially set for Launch on Warning under the Emergency War Orders. Worse, the Sovs had more primitive systems, more fragile systems, with at least a couple of accidental launches that we know about (exploded in their silos). And no money to even maintain their systems, let alone upgrade and remediate their flawed code. (There is much evidence that the Sovs also are using this "we may not be able to control all of our systems" ploy as more leverage for more bailouts, more handouts, more buyouts of their obsolete technology. "Send us another $50 billion and we'll promise to spend some of it hiring programmers to start looking at our Y2K problems...the rest we'll of course deposit in the Swiss bank accounts set up for our KGB, GRU, Red Army, and Party apparatchniks. And our Mafia...mustn't forget our Mafia.") As I have been predicting for most of this year, the smartest thing our DOD may do is to use the information chaos of Y2K to go for a DECCOM (Decapitation of Command) strike as the clock hits midnight in Moscow. Knock out their sub pens on the Kola Peninsula, hit the missile facilities in Semipalatinsk, knock out Vladivostok, and do a lay down over Moscow. A one-way ticket back to the 19th century. A few megadeaths may be a reasonable price to pay, esp. Russkie megadeaths. As the potato chip ad puts it, "they'll make more." In any case, the nuclear accident/counterforce strike scenario is just one of many reasons I plan to be safely at home as Y2K unfolds, with certain friends and family, stocked up with various supplies and prepared to watch the fun unfold. Safely away from large cities and targets. --Tim May "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, just the way the President did." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 25 10:15:17 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 02:15:17 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! (fwd) Message-ID: <365C3CDB.6F34@lsil.com> I spotted the *rhetorical* steel case in the first note. The disturbing thing here is the requirement to report deviations from a pattern. That is where it becomes a NaziReptilianProctoscope$ystem. It's my fucking money, I can do whatever the fuck I want with it, whenever the fuck I want to. I wish those fuckers would look at the Fourth Amendment. The structuring stuff looks like it could get pretty wierd: how I move my money should not matter but maybe it does. Why do reptiles have such a bad name? Some of my favorite politicians are reptiles. BTW - the FDIC site state that there is no statutory requirement for a 'Know Your Customer' system. You could also say that they are not interested in little guys, that they need this stuff to do their job, but if the laws are written so that anyone can be targeted without a warrant then there is a *big* problem. Especially worrisome is automated pattern analysis without a warrant - a violation of the 4th. So, what are the alternatives to keeping your money in a standard financial institution? Seems to me that keeping it at home is pretty risky - eventually some low-life will figure it out and then you'll have to choose between your cash and your left nut. Keeping it all tied up in goods is not any bargain either. A small fraction perhaps... Mike >From the FDIC site. Pardon the formatting - it's straight from the .gov. ************************************************************************ http://www.fdic.gov/search97cgi/s97_cgi.exe?action=View&VdkVgwKey=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efdic%2Egov%2Fbanknews%2Fmanuals%2Fexampoli%2F98FINREC%2Ehtm&DocOffset=1&DocsFound=11&QueryZip=know+your+customer&Collection=www&SortField=Score&SortOrder=Desc&SearchUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efdic%2Egov%2Fsearch97cgi%2Fs97%5Fcgi%2Eexe%3Faction%3DFilterSearch%26QueryZip%3Dknow%2Byour%2Bcustomer%26Filter%3Dfilters%252Fallwww%252Ehts%26ResultTemplate%3Dfdic%252Ehts%26QueryText%3Dknow%2Byour%2Bcustomer%26Collection%3Dwww%26SortField%3DScore%26SortOrder%3DDesc%26ResultStart%3D1%26ResultCount%3D25&ViewTemplate=view%2Ehts&ServerKey=Primary&AdminImagePath=&Theme=Power&Company=FDIC "Know> " Policy One of the most important, if not the most important means by which financial institutions can hope to avoid criminal exposure to the institution from customers who use the resources of the institution for illicit purposes is to have a clear and concise understanding of each customer's practices. The adoption of " " guidelines or procedures by financial institutions has proven extremely effective in detecting suspicious activity by customers of the institution in a timely manner. Even though not required by regulation or statute, it is imperative that financial institutions adopt " " guidelines or procedures to enable the immediate detection and identification of suspicious activity at the institution. The concept of " " is, by design, not explicitly defined so that each institution can adopt procedures best suited for its own operations. An effective " " policy must, at a minimum, contain a clear statement of management's overall expectations and establish specific line responsibilities. While the officers and staff of smaller banks may have more frequent and direct contact with customers than their counterparts in large urban institutions, it is incumbent upon all institutions to adopt and follow policies appropriate to their size, location, and type of business. Objectives Of " " Policy 1.A " " policy should increase the likelihood the financial institution is in compliance with all statutes and regulations and adheres to sound and recognized banking practices. 2.A " " policy should decrease the likelihood the financial institution will become a victim of illegal activities perpetrated by a customer. 3.A " " policy that is effective will protect the good name and reputation of the financial institution. 4.A " " policy should not interfere with the relationship of the financial institution with its good customers. At the present time there are no statutory mandates requiring a " " policy or specifying the contents of such a policy. However, in order to develop and maintain a practical and useful policy, financial institutions should incorporate the following principles into their business practices: 1.Financial institutions should make a reasonable effort to determine the true identity of all customers requesting the bank's services; 2.Financial institutions should take particular care to identify the ownership of all accounts and of those using safe-custody facilities; 3.Identification should be obtained from all new customers; 4.Evidence of identity should be obtained from customers seeking to conduct significant business transactions; and 5.Financial institutions should be aware of any unusual transaction activity or activity that is disproportionate to the customer's known business. An integral part of an effective " " policy is a comprehensive knowledge of the transactions carried out by the customers of the financial institution. Therefore, it is necessary that the " " procedures established by the institution allow for the collection of sufficient information to develop a "transaction profile" of each customer. The primary objective of such procedures is to enable the financial institution to predict with relative certainty the types of transactions in which a customer is likely to be engaged. Internal systems should then be developed for monitoring transactions to determine if transactions occur which are inconsistent with the customer's "transaction profile". A " Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:30:04 -0800 > From: Tim May > Subject: Dr. Strangelove on the Y2K Opportunity > As I have been predicting for most of this year, the smartest thing our DOD > may do is to use the information chaos of Y2K to go for a DECCOM > (Decapitation of Command) strike as the clock hits midnight in Moscow. > Knock out their sub pens on the Kola Peninsula, hit the missile facilities > in Semipalatinsk, knock out Vladivostok, and do a lay down over Moscow. > > A one-way ticket back to the 19th century. A few megadeaths may be a That's MEGA-wishful thinking (not to mention more than a tad nuts). The results of a major nuclear strike would take the human race to a civilization level more akin to the Sumarians (at best). The ecological, technological, medical, etc. failures would be impossible to deal with at our current level of technology. Potentialy a billion or more people would survive short-term. Nobody in there right mind would want to trade places with them. Within 20 years the vast majority of the survivors would be dead. If there would be more than 50M in 60 years over the entire planet I'd be surprised. If I were setting policy I'd point a bunch/most of my nukes at myself. The kindest thing I can do for my people is to kill them, the worst thing I could do for my enemy is leave them alive - they'll eat themselves. Then I'd sit back and say: "Fuck with us and we suicide. Oh, we'll take you with us but slowly and by your own hand." In the process nuke their major grain belts, water resources, and raw metal sites, leave their cities and major population centers standing and occupied. It ain't winnable by either side except by avoidance. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From apf2 at apf2.com Wed Nov 25 11:52:22 1998 From: apf2 at apf2.com (Albert P. Franco, II) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:52:22 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981125194905.0088b530@209.204.247.83> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 12535 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jf_avon at citenet.net Wed Nov 25 12:42:48 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:42:48 +0800 Subject: Interesting tidbit about media controlling and censoring opinions, Web Polls data manipulated, etc. Message-ID: <199811252000.PAA24863@cti06.citenet.net> On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:03:53 -0600, Ed "Saipan" D. (via CFD V2#714) wrote: >Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:48:13 -0600 >From: dongres >Subject: Anne MacLelland has promised [several paragraph snipped] [THE FOLLOWING REVEALS A VERY DISTRUBING TENDENCY. JFA.] [snip] >The problem now is missinformation. Public forums >that generaly shows we are in the majority, are being removed while media incresed >their pitch. You may have noticed the latest one on Sympatico showed 85% against >gun control and 15% for it. Now set for 0% to 0%, while sysop says he didn't >noticed and his female helper ("webmistress") emailed me that there's "no any >conspiracy" even 'though I never suggested there's any to beggin with. When I >asked Angus Reids Poll info about their gun control poll they said that they know >only what is on their website. (And that one wasn't there) They asked me who ever >mention such poll!!! (as if it didn't existed?) Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. I >haven't seen the evidence yet. "That's all I'm saying" (to put it in Randy Scott's >words ;-) [THE FOLLOWING IS IS A VERY INTERESTING OBSERVATION... JFA. ] >See, we have to work on demystifying all the "news" we are getting and NEVER TAKE >ANY at face value. Did you noticed often on the news they show a "talking head" >with the sound off and CBC own comentator narates what has been said. This is to >train us to get used to it (communist regime trick I've seen so often) so they can >put anything to anybody's mouth when needed - and sometimes they do already. >Nothing new under the Sun. [large snip] >Ed "Saipan" D. >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ From jf_avon at citenet.net Wed Nov 25 12:58:51 1998 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:58:51 +0800 Subject: Fwd: "A MASSIVE BREACH OF PRIVACY" Message-ID: <199811252000.PAA24853@cti06.citenet.net> ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== >From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" [Breitkreuz is an elected member of the Canadian Parliement (Reform Party)] >To: "'firearms digest'" >Subject: "A MASSIVE BREACH OF PRIVACY" >Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:07:23 -0500 PUBLICATION: Vancouver Sun DATE: 98.11.25 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A1 / Front BYLINE: Jeff Lee SOURCE: Vancouver Sun Feds fear data sold rather than shredded: Huge cache of sensitive government documents uncovered in Burnaby. The federal government believes tonnes of highly-sensitive material, including tax records, unemployment insurance claims and parole records were sold intact by a Lower Mainland company that was supposed to shred and recycle the material, The Vancouver Sun has learned. Federal agencies found more than 110 tonnes of unshredded files in a Burnaby warehouse last July that were being offered for sale by West Document Shredding (1995) Inc. But they have been unable to determine what happened to nearly another 200 tonnes they know the company was given by National Archives, the federal agency responsible for disposing of classified and non-classified documents no longer required by the government. And the amount of confidential material sent to West that wasn't shredded may actually be much higher -- as much as 600 to 700 tonnes -- said sources who spoke on condition of anonymity, because the company also obtained documents directly from a number of other government departments . The RCMP's National Security Intelligence Service, which investigated the security breach, believes all documents were sent to pulp mills for recycling, even though they weren't shredded, Sergeant John Ward said. ``We're quite sure that no national security issues were compromised, at least from our investigation. But I can tell you that we are not happy about this at all,'' he said, adding that the issue involved a massive breach of privacy. But John Billings, a regional director of Public Works, said he can't say for certain the material didn't fall into the hands of people who might use it for improper purposes. Sources said confidential information such as social insurance numbers has a commercial value in criminal circles and can be used for such purposes as obtaining false identification. According to a public works memo obtained by The Sun, West apparently sold the material unshredded because it could get a higher price per tonne than if it had to tear it into unreadable strips as required under the terms of its contract. Les Billett, the owner of West, denied Tuesday he sold any confidential documents intact. He said his company couldn't handle the volume of material the government provided. Billett said only a small part of the 110 tonnes seized came from the government. He said most of it was commercial office paper and estimated that only 20 or so tonnes was government records. But Ward said police confirmed all of the material seized came from the government, and that it was indeed being offered for sale unshredded. Many of the nearly 22,000 boxes sent for destruction contained what the government calls ``designated'' or protected confidential information originating from Revenue Canada, Citizenship and Immigration, Human Resources, National Parole Board, Indian and Northern Affairs, and a number of other departments. The RCMP was also among the agencies whose confidential documents were found in the tonnes of material seized, he said. Most were low-level security records from various detachments, as well as the E Division headquarters, he said. West's contract called for the company to obtain, shred and recycle 400 tonnes of material from the National Archives warehouse in Burnaby over a one-year period. It would also get up to 450 tonnes of material directly from other agencies. In return, West was supposed to pay the government $30.17 for every tonne it took. Records show public works received at least $7,282, meaning West paid for about 241 tonnes of documents, Billings said. But lading bills at the federal storage centre show West actually received 292 tonnes, not including any material obtained directly from other agencies. ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 25 13:12:15 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 05:12:15 +0800 Subject: How to reign the federal government in... Message-ID: <199811252030.OAA30458@einstein.ssz.com> Start a political party, but the likes of which has never walked the face of the Earth. The individual states when acting in a clear majority (>=75%) may pass Constitutional amendments without the involvement or interference of federal processes. The IRS, for example, could be shut down tomorrow or significantly modified via this mechanism without involvement at the federal level. What is needed is a political party that has a representative site in each state capital. Their job is to get proposed amendments to the Constitution on the floor of each body for vote. Think nationaly, act by state. There could be no appeal to the Supreme Court for constitutionality because it IS the Constitution. There are no requirements in the Constitution to notify or otherwise register such acts with the federal authorities. In short, it's none of their business if the people acting at the state level change the laws at the federal level. They must either comply or quit their jobs. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Wed Nov 25 13:14:33 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 05:14:33 +0800 Subject: Dr. Strangelove on the Y2K Opportunity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811252016.OAA13071@manifold.algebra.com> Tim May wrote: > Worse, the Sovs had more primitive systems, more fragile systems, with at > least a couple of accidental launches that we know about (exploded in their > silos). And no money to even maintain their systems, let alone upgrade and > remediate their flawed code. ... > As I have been predicting for most of this year, the smartest thing our DOD > may do is to use the information chaos of Y2K to go for a DECCOM > (Decapitation of Command) strike as the clock hits midnight in Moscow. > Knock out their sub pens on the Kola Peninsula, hit the missile facilities > in Semipalatinsk, knock out Vladivostok, and do a lay down over Moscow. > > A one-way ticket back to the 19th century. A few megadeaths may be a > reasonable price to pay, esp. Russkie megadeaths. As the potato chip ad > puts it, "they'll make more." I don't quite understand this. Look at this from the standpoint of the person in control of the American arsenal. The goal of this person, to me, seems to be prevention of American deaths (perhaps by a threat of mutual annihilation). You say that there is a possibility of a scenario A that some Russian missiles may be launched accidentally, without a first attack from the US. To prevent this, you suggest scenario B: a preventative attack against Russia. I think that your scenario has a higher mathematical expectation of the number of american deaths than waiting to see if Russians attack first. Under scenario B, attack on Russia is a 100% probability event. The conditional probability of a counterattack is high as well, with the probability higher (in my judgment) than the probability of a _accidental_ unprovoked attack in scenario A. The conditional expectation of the number of warheads reaching their targets, assuming that it is a authorized retaliatory strike, is again higher (in my opinion) than the number of warheads that would be launched accidentally. What his means is that scenario B has a higher expectation of american fatalities. I do not see a point in doing this. - Igor. From Nilsphone at aol.com Wed Nov 25 13:15:28 1998 From: Nilsphone at aol.com (Nilsphone at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 05:15:28 +0800 Subject: Interesting tidbit about media controlling and censoringopinions, Web Pol... Message-ID: <4d95422.365c6a69@aol.com> I have noticed something else: Our networks (NBC, ABC, CBS etc) will interview a politician, on camera, and then immediately afterwards tell the viewers/listeners WHAT HE SAID! I am not talking about commentary, extrapolations, consequences, comparison with other opinions, commantaries about the truth or falsehood of what whas said, no, the TVnetspeakcritter will say "Well, we heard President Ougadougou Cleptocrate say that....." even when the interviewee spoke English, or was dubbed. Bye the way, for reasons related to those in the original mail, I much prefer subtitles to dubbing, as the speaker's voice gives away many clues, even if I am unfamiliar with his language. Regards Nils Andersson >[THE FOLLOWING IS IS A VERY INTERESTING OBSERVATION... JFA. ] >See, we have to work on demystifying all the "news" we are getting and NEVER TAKE >ANY at face value. Did you noticed often on the news they show a "talking head" >with the sound off and CBC own comentator narates what has been said. This is to >train us to get used to it (communist regime trick I've seen so often) so they can >put anything to anybody's mouth when needed - and sometimes they do already. >Nothing new under the Sun. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 25 14:12:36 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:12:36 +0800 Subject: Intellectual Property is like a banana (McNealy) Message-ID: <199811252140.PAA30769@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.cadence.com/features/vol3No3/mc_nealy > Do We Worry Too Much About Protecting IP? > > --> By Scott McNealy > > It seems as if everyone�s always worried about intellectual property, > or IP. We worry about its proprietary nature and how to protect it. > But let�s take a different angle on IP and also intellectual capital > inside a company, because I think we all worry way too much about > protecting it. > > IP has the shelf life of a banana. It just doesn�t last, yet we�re all > worried about protecting it, hiding it, securing it, storing it in a > vault. As a result, we absolutely prevent our competitors from getting > ahold of it, but we also prevent our employees from getting ahold of > it. We prevent our customers � and our suppliers and our partners � > from getting access to it. As a result, by the time the people who > need access to it get that access, it�s so old that it is effectively > a banana we wouldn�t want to eat. [text deleted] ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 25 14:16:38 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:16:38 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You!(fwd) In-Reply-To: <365C3CDB.6F34@lsil.com> Message-ID: At 9:22 AM -0800 11/25/98, Michael Motyka wrote: >BTW - the FDIC site state that there is no statutory requirement for a >'Know Your Customer' system. You could also say that they are not >interested in little guys, that they need this stuff to do their job, >but if the laws are written so that anyone can be targeted without a >warrant then there is a *big* problem. Especially worrisome is automated >pattern analysis without a warrant - a violation of the 4th. This is not at all clear. If Alice has information about Bob, and the cops seek information from Alice about Bob, and Alice provides it, Bob cannot generally (as I understand constitutional law) claim any violation of his Fourth Amendment protections against unlawful search and seizure. Now maybe Alice can, if they are her records. (As this transfers the "papers" she is "secure in" to her.) But not if she gives them up voluntarily or is subject to other regulations. Specifically, if the Alice Bank, subject to banking regs and suchlike, gives up information on Bob the Customer, no Fourth A. issues are likely involved. (There may be contractual issues, if Alice has promised Bob that she won't give up Bob's secrets, and so on.) I'm not approving of the Feds examining the records of banks, only noting that the Fourth is not implicated here. From what I know of the law. (Legal beagles would probably mutter about a penumbra of the Fourth, an expectation of privacy, etc.) --Tim May "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, just the way the President did." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From fnorky at chisp.net Wed Nov 25 14:28:22 1998 From: fnorky at chisp.net (Douglas L. Peterson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:28:22 +0800 Subject: How to reign the federal government in... In-Reply-To: <199811252030.OAA30458@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <365C8A52.CF56EC1C@chisp.net> Jim Choate wrote: > > Start a political party, but the likes of which has never walked the face of > the Earth. Ok, what kind? > The individual states when acting in a clear majority (>=75%) may pass > Constitutional amendments without the involvement or interference of federal > processes. Ok, lets look at Article V. of the US Constitution. Article. V. The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate [Possibly abrogated by Amendment XVII]. As per Article V, two thirds of the States can call a Convention to propose Amendments. I believe this would be 33 of our current 50 states. Territories and other holding would have no say in this. At this point, if three fourths of the states agree to any proposed Amendments, it becomes the law of the land. We only need two thirds of the States to start the process, but this must be done by their Legislatures. > The IRS, for example, could be shut down tomorrow or significantly modified > via this mechanism without involvement at the federal level. I assume this would be either by nullifying Amendment 15 or modifying it to a great degree. Nothing else would work. > What is needed is a political party that has a representative site in each > state capital. Their job is to get proposed amendments to the Constitution > on the floor of each body for vote. Actually, it would not be to get the proposed amendments on the floor. You would be putting the proposal for a Convention to amend the Constitution on the floor. In addition, depending on the State, the party would likely need to have a member elected to that States Legislature. Another possibility, again depending on the State is to have a State Constitutional amendment directing that States Legislature to vote for a Convention by a specific date. > Think nationaly, act by state. > > There could be no appeal to the Supreme Court for constitutionality because > it IS the Constitution. > > There are no requirements in the Constitution to notify or otherwise > register such acts with the federal authorities. In short, it's none of > their business if the people acting at the state level change the laws at > the federal level. They must either comply or quit their jobs. That is why Article V was written as it was. It provides a backdoor to keep the federal government from getting out of control. -Doug www.TheServerFarm.net From mgering at ecosystems.net Wed Nov 25 14:58:14 1998 From: mgering at ecosystems.net (Matthew James Gering) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:58:14 +0800 Subject: [ISN] Feds Want Banks to Spy on All Customers...Even You! (fwd) Message-ID: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B2CA@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com> Albert, please do NOT post HTML. plain-text ASCII with < 80 char wrap ONLY. Matt plain-text version follows: -----Original Message----- From: Albert P. Franco, II [mailto:apf2 at apf2.com] > >Good thing I keep all my money in a steel case buried somewhere >along the Appalachian trail. No bank accounts, no credit cards. > >Ken Williams > >>From: ISPI Clips 6.51 >>From: WorldNetDaily, November 23, 1998 > >Big Brother Banks? FDIC has snooping plans >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19981123_xex_big_brother_.shtml >David M. Bresnahan, David at talkusa.com >Contributing Editor, WorldNetDaily > >Are you a potential criminal? Are you a threat to banks, airlines, a >potential spy, or perhaps an IRS tax protester? The government would like >to know and they are about to force banks to be their detectives. Isn't this called prior restraint? Isn't it specifically illegal for the government to treat all members of the public as criminals a priori? This certainly sounds like one of the grossest cases of Feds-That-Should-Die(TM) that I have ever heard. I'm sure that the founding fathers would have been stocking up on gun powder and lead over this one. And I'm NOT one of the many Libertarian/Money-Gun-and-Gold-Stashing types on this list. I far and away prefer to work inside the system peacefully. But, it does give me pause to think about it! When a supposedly NON-LEA agency such as the FuckingDICks begins creating regulations of this sort it is the most blatant proof that the constitution has died. Perhaps it is time to start draft the next version of the Declaration of Independence... Actually, we wouldn't need to change much. It was an excellent document then and now and perhaps it is time shake the dust off of it! Here's my take on a new version, (read carefully the changes in some cases are subtle): THE DECLARATION of INDEPENDENCE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action of the New Continental Consensus, July 4, 1999 The Declaration of the People of the United States of America ------------------------------------------------------------------------ WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, Privacy and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shown, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. *But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpation, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government*, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these people; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present Federal Government of the United States of America is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpation, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World. It has refused its Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good. (Agencies such as the NSA and CIA whose actions are wholly unsupervised and unchecked.) It has forbidden its Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till its Assent and modification should be obtained; and when so suspended, it has utterly neglected to attend to them. (Bastardization of state and local voters measures threw inappropriate judiciary interference.) It has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only. (Pick any agency... none allow for direct representation in their regulatory actions. Public comment IS NOT direct representation!) It has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with its Measures. It has investigated, harassed, terrorized, and killed members of Representative Bodies repeatedly, for opposing with its manly Firmness its Invasions on the Rights of the People. It has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolution, to allow others to act; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of the Annihilation, have not been returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposing them to all the Dangers of Invasion from it, and the Convulsions within. It has endeavored to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new ownership of Lands and Properties. It has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing its Assent to Laws for respecting Judiciary Powers. (You can't sue them unless they say it's OK... And when you do who do you sue?) It has made Judges dependent on its Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries. *It has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance.* It has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent or oversight of our Legislatures. (NSA, CIA, IRS, ATF, etc.) It has affected to render the Military and National Security Forces independent of and superior to the Civil Power. *It has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving its Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:* FOR quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us; FOR protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: FOR cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World: (ITAR, etc.) FOR imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: FOR depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury: (Try to fight an "infraction" in California!) FOR transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended Offences: (Hi CJ!) FOR abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighboring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rules into these Colonies: (Ever been to a US territory?) FOR taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: (Let's hear it for the IRS and NSA, and now FDIC!) FOR suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever. (Who actually makes tax regulation?!) It has abducted Government here, and declared us under of its Protection and thus waging War against us. It has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People. It is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of Mercenaries to complete the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized Nation. It has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive to bear Arms and false testimony against their Countrymen, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. It has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Profiteering Drug Peddlers, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions. (Don't forget Noriega and his CIA buddies. You wouldn't get even money on the bet that they have changed their ways...) It has subverted the very essence of the Constitution and Bill of Rights which gave it birth by perpetrating the following acts of barbarism and contempt for the people: Confiscation of Personal Properties being routinely executed without the most minimum attempt at DUE PROCESS; Routine and massive warrant-less searches and seizures of the personal communications of the people; Commonplace denial of competent legal defense and availability of juries of one's peers; Unconstitutional restrictions of the movement of the people and their assets; Unconstitutional restrictions of the peoples' right to assemble, publicly and privately and secretly; IN every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury and imprisonment in State Mental Institutions. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People. NOR have we been wanting in Attentions of our International Brethren. They have warned us from Time to Time of Attempts by our Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over them. They have reminded us of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. They have appealed to our native Justice and Magnanimity, and they have conjured us by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been denied the Voice of Justice and of Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Union in the Spirit of Freedom, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends. WE, therefore, the People of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in GENERAL CONSENSUS, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these States, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United States are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the Federal Government, and that all political Connection between them and the Federal Government of the USA, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Signed, The names of course will be changed to protect the innocent... I may not be up to the task of editing TJ, but you get the point! I was going to send this through an anonymizer and sign it Thomas In Payne. But Fuck the MIBs. This is MY Opinion Freely Stated as I'm guaranteed by the Constitution they are so hell bent on destroying. This adaptation of such a revered document as our dear Declaration of Independence is meant to provoke thought and perhaps one last effort by many to halt the erosion of the effectiveness of what was perhaps the most important statement of what a government should be that the world has ever known. It is time that we take back our Constitution from the MIB. My only question is HOW? APF From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 25 14:59:45 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:59:45 +0800 Subject: How to reign the federal government in... (fwd) Message-ID: <199811252222.QAA31143@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:53:06 +0000 > From: "Douglas L. Peterson" > Subject: Re: How to reign the federal government in... > As per Article V, two thirds of the States can call a Convention to > propose Amendments. I believe this would be 33 of our current 50 states. > Territories and other holding would have no say in this. At this point, > if three fourths of the states agree to any proposed Amendments, it becomes > the law of the land. > > We only need two thirds of the States to start the process, but this > must be done by their Legislatures. Which is exactly what I said. The goal of the party would be to get proposed amendments on the floor each state legislature for vote. > > The IRS, for example, could be shut down tomorrow or significantly modified > > via this mechanism without involvement at the federal level. > > I assume this would be either by nullifying Amendment 15 or modifying it > to a great degree. Nothing else would work. That's the way I see it as well, which is the point after all. > > What is needed is a political party that has a representative site in each > > state capital. Their job is to get proposed amendments to the Constitution > > on the floor of each body for vote. > > Actually, it would not be to get the proposed amendments on the floor. You > would be putting the proposal for a Convention to amend the Constitution > on the floor. In addition, depending on the State, the party would likely > need to have a member elected to that States Legislature. Actualy it is. The Convention is only to create the amendment, the actual vote takes place in the state legislatures, not the convention. > That is why Article V was written as it was. It provides a backdoor to > keep the federal government from getting out of control. Absolutely. Now, let's kick the beggar in! ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jtl at molehill.org Wed Nov 25 15:23:25 1998 From: jtl at molehill.org (Todd Larason) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:23:25 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis In-Reply-To: <199811252258.QAA31290@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <19981125145946.A9497@molehill.org> On 981125, Jim Choate wrote: > Or when Congress is directed by 2/3 of the state legislatures a convention > can be called for *proposing* amendments Note that although it's clear that this is only for proposing amendments, our history leaves some doubt that's what would actually happen. The current constitution came ouf of a constitutional convention called under the Articles of Confederation to discuss amendments, but was finally enacted under procedures *it* specified, not the procedures specified in the Articles. > The only sticky wicket I see is the ...proposed by Congress. Does this mean > that Congress can decide which of the two it will recognize? Historically, Congress has always specified, at the time it proposes the amendments. I believe all but the repeal of prohibition were handled using the legislature method. -- ICQ UIN: 125844100 From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 25 15:28:59 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:28:59 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis Message-ID: <199811252258.QAA31290@einstein.ssz.com> ARTICLE V. [Constitution: how amended; proviso.] The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions of the three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which shall be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of it's equal Suffrage in the Senate. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Congress can propose amendments if 2/3 of both houses agree Or when Congress is directed by 2/3 of the state legislatures a convention can be called for *proposing* amendments Irrespective of which of the above two processes causes an amendment to be considered a part of the Constitution when 3/4 of the state legislatures vote for it, or by the constitutional conventions called in 3/4 of the state agree on it. The decision of which method to use may be *proposed* by Congress. It's after 1808 and we're not considering state representation in the Senate so I'll skip the last two phrases. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only sticky wicket I see is the ...proposed by Congress. Does this mean that Congress can decide which of the two it will recognize? Or does it mean that Congress can merely express its desire? Or does this apply only to the bills that were developed in the Congress? There's no time line for Congress to decide, could this be used to hinder such a process? Note that it's important to recognize that we're talking about 3/4n conventions and not a single convention attended by 3/4n representatives of the states. The tense of the sentence leaves no doubt. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Nov 25 15:35:42 1998 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:35:42 +0800 Subject: Bank record privacy In-Reply-To: <365C3CDB.6F34@lsil.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981125144737.03a03cf0@gabber.c2.net> At 01:31 PM 11/25/98 -0800, Tim May wrote: >I'm not approving of the Feds examining the records of banks, only noting >that the Fourth is not implicated here. From what I know of the law. > >(Legal beagles would probably mutter about a penumbra of the Fourth, an >expectation of privacy, etc.) No quibbles from me, Tim is correct. Bank record privacy for individuals and small (< 5 partners) partnerships is governed by the Financial Privacy Act of 1978 (12 USC 3401 et seq). I've got a short discussion of it online as part of a larger (and incomplete) survey of federal privacy statutes at . There are cites to a few of the bigger/older bank record privacy cases there, if people are interested in reading further. Don't expect confidentiality against the government from a US-chartered (federal or state) financial institution; you may be able to extract money from the bank following a disclosure which didn't conform to the complicated rules for disclosures, but banks are in the business of keeping cops and shareholders, not customers, happy. There's no real risk that customers will switch banks because of poor privacy policies because they've all got the same policies. As a general rule, there's no protected/significant expectation of privacy in information which is disclosed to third parties, absent a special relationship which would preserve that privacy. The class of special relationships (roughly, spouse, attorney, doctor, minister) is based on history/custom and legislation, so you can't create a new one just because you want to - not even with a contract, because the other party can be compelled to disclose the information (despite the contract) by subpoena or via a search warrant. (The Fifth Amendment would only bar such compelled disclosure if the information tended to incriminate the disclosing party, and the disclosing party were a natural person, not a corporation.) -- Greg Broiles��������|History teaches that 'Trust us' gbroiles at netbox.com�|is no guarantee of due process. |_Kasler v. Lundgren_, 98 CDOS 1581 |(March 4, 1998) From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 25 15:36:07 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:36:07 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) Message-ID: <199811252312.RAA31545@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:59:46 -0800 > From: Todd Larason > Subject: Re: Article V - an analysis > Note that although it's clear that this is only for proposing amendments, our > history leaves some doubt that's what would actually happen. The current > constitution came ouf of a constitutional convention called under the Articles > of Confederation to discuss amendments, but was finally enacted under > procedures *it* specified, not the procedures specified in the Articles. Why is this problematic? When the convention was called it was with the express goal of replacing the articles. A tacit a priori admission they were faulty and needed replacement. Now, why would they ratify the new Constitution under the old rules in such a situation? They wouldn't. One day the old rules apply, the next day the new rules apply. It makes more sense to ask folks to recognize the new rules under their own aegis than some problematic hold-over. No, the intent of the Constitution was to intentionaly break the ties with the status quo and precedence. > Historically, Congress has always specified, at the time it proposes the > amendments. I believe all but the repeal of prohibition were handled using > the legislature method. Did Congress accept the prohibition amendments without a priori specifying their submission and implimentation mechanism? ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl Wed Nov 25 15:44:50 1998 From: s1180 at qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl (Jan Dobrucki) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:44:50 +0800 Subject: open-pgp / s/mime interoperability In-Reply-To: <199811242259.WAA04469@server.eternity.org> Message-ID: <365C8E1D.2A56D16D@qmail.pjwstk.waw.pl> Abstract: "Should I buy PGP or S/MIME?" Well, I just want to remind something, something that someone else has mentioned not so long ago, and it's this: PGP is Open Source, while S/MIME is not. This means PGP and it's algorithms have been scrutinized over, while S/MIME has not... Although this might not be enough to decide weather to use PGP or S/MIME, I would give a '+' to PGP for making an effort to be accountable, and a '-' for S/MIME for being secretive. Sincerely, Jan Dobrucki DSA is a signature-only algorithm. Consequently, you aren't doing a "decryption" with it when you evaluate a signature. I recommend you look in a crypto source book, like Schneier's "Applied Cryptography" or Menezes, van Oorschot, and Vanstone's "Handbook of Applied Cryptography" for details of how DSS is done. There is also source code available from a wide variety of places. From jtl at molehill.org Wed Nov 25 15:48:02 1998 From: jtl at molehill.org (Todd Larason) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:48:02 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811252312.RAA31545@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <19981125151157.B9497@molehill.org> On 981125, Jim Choate wrote: > Why is this problematic? When the convention was called it was with the > express goal of replacing the articles. A tacit a priori admission they were > faulty and needed replacement. But that wasn't the goal, at least not the stated goal. The Convention was called under the procedures specified in the Articles. The Convention itself decided to change the rules for ratification. > > Historically, Congress has always specified, at the time it proposes the > > amendments. I believe all but the repeal of prohibition were handled using > > the legislature method. > > Did Congress accept the prohibition amendments without a priori specifying > their submission and implimentation mechanism? Congress specified in both (all) cases. For the original prohibition amendment, they submitted it to state legislatures. For the repeal amendment, they submitted it to state conventions. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 25 15:56:59 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:56:59 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) Message-ID: <199811252328.RAA31856@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:11:57 -0800 > From: Todd Larason > Subject: Re: Article V - an analysis (fwd) > On 981125, Jim Choate wrote: > > Why is this problematic? When the convention was called it was with the > > express goal of replacing the articles. A tacit a priori admission they were > > faulty and needed replacement. > > But that wasn't the goal, at least not the stated goal. The Convention > was called under the procedures specified in the Articles. The Convention > itself decided to change the rules for ratification. Which is by definition within the powers of such a convention. Their charter is to come together in order to build a consensus and create from that a charter for future operations. The litmus test is whether the states are willing enough to go along with it to actualy do it. They were so the point was moot. The states called the convention in order to create new proposals for government, the convention went back to the states with a proposal, the states looked it over and voted for it. It's important to remember as well that the original Constitution had to be ratified by all 13 original states and not simply 3/4 of them. The choice was unanimous. > Congress specified in both (all) cases. For the original prohibition > amendment, they submitted it to state legislatures. For the repeal amendment, > they submitted it to state conventions. So, however the bill get's to Congress they must specify a method for the states to enact. Now the question is how long does Congress get? If Congress sits around and does nothing can it stall long enough that they can kill the amendment process by their own internal procedures? There is certainly no time limit imposed by the Constitution so the implication is that Congress has to wait until the states decide whether that takes a day or a century. But at the same token there is no implicit time constraint on Congress either. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 25 16:06:01 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:06:01 +0800 Subject: Nov. 29 column - Christmas book giving Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:40:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:38:45 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: vin at dali.lvrj.com Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vinsends at ezlink.com From: Vin_Suprynowicz at lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) Subject: Nov. 29 column - Christmas book giving Resent-From: vinsends at ezlink.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/599 X-Loop: vinsends at ezlink.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vinsends-request at ezlink.com Status: RO FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED NOV. 29, 1998 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Give a dangerous book for Christmas Pickings have been a little slim, I must admit, for my annual Christmas book column. At the risk of emulating the editors of Rolling Stone, with whom I parted ways when they started dismissing all the best music of the '70s as "derivative" (heck, what isn't, Parker and Coltrane are "derivative," and I happened to (start ital)like(end ital) Eric Carmen and the Raspberries) -- I must admit a certain deja vu at reviewing the 1998 literary crop. These volumes don't just remind me of better works which made the list in former years, they often (start ital)cite(end ital) those books, at length. 1) Well worth mentioning is a "how-to" paperback of about 180 pages, and one of the few volumes I've read cover-to-cover of late, "Boston on Guns & Courage," by the pseudonymous Boston T. Party, available from Javelin Press, P.O. Box 31, Ignacio, Colo. 81137-0031. The book is $17, or $10.20 apiece for six to 31 copies, but the publishers quirkily request payment only in cash (that gets you an autographed copy) or payee-blank (negotiable) money orders , threatening to return checks of money orders with a named payee. Mr. Party is of the opinion that the "thugs" who outlawed the private possession of gold in 1933 "should have been strung up from the first day," and properly dismisses many modern gun owners as "serfs with guns," demanding "If you won't fight for your Liberty, then sell your guns to us now before they're confiscated without compensation." He then spends the bulk of his book running through the options for Americans who have finally decided to arm themselves against incipient tyranny, running through the pros and cons of each caliber and type of weapon; gun safety; current and likely future gun control laws; how to buy guns without having them registered ... a handy little book, even if it's sketchy in places. Of course, I disagree with many of the author's specific recommendations. (In .308 battle rifles, if you can believe it, Mr. Party actually favors the tin-and-plastic Belgian FN-FAL over the sturdy American M-14 and its civilian version, the M-1A. Of taste there is certainly no accounting. And it's a tad careless to recommend the Soviet Tokarev SVT 40 -- "very nicely made" -- given the weapon's well-known propensity to shred its own firing pins, isn't it?) But in this author we find a kindred spirit, correctly reporting that "The feds hope to 'decapitate' the Freedom Movement by simultaneously arresting and/or eliminating several hundred key people," something they've already demonstrated with their infiltration via agents provocateurs of the burgeoning 1990s militia movement, albeit not quite "simultaneously." The author quotes Arthur B. Robinson explaining "The gun controllers are not deterred by the facts about guns and crime, because their primary fear is not of criminals. They fear ordinary Americans whose lives and freedom their policies are destroying. In this fear and in their world, they are on target." He gathers together great swatches from books which have already made this "Most Dangerous" list in previous years (and which are still highly recommended), including L. Neil Smith's "Pallas," Bill Branon's "Let Us Prey," Jim Bovard's "Lost Rights" (Laissez-Faire Books at 800-326-0996), Claire Wolfe's "101 Things To Do Till the Revolution" (Loompanics at 800-380-2230, or Laissez-Faire), and of course John Ross' masterful novel of the put-upon gun culture, "Unintended Consequences" ($28.95 from hard-to-find Accurate Press in St. Louis, so try Paladin Press at 800-392-2400, or else Loompanics), from which we again hear: "These government slugs ban our guns and they ban our magazines and they ban our ammo. They ban suppressors that make our guns quieter and then they ban outdoor shooting ranges because our guns are too loud. They ban steel-core ammunition because it's 'armor-piercing,' then they close down our indoor ranges where people shoot lead-core bullets because they say we might get lead poisoning. ... "If we sell one gun that's gone up in value, they can charge us with dealing firearms without a federal dealer's license, which is a felony. If we get a dealer's license, they say we are not really in business, and report us to our local authorities for violating zoning ordinances by running a commercial venture out of a residence. ... "Then, if they suspect we've ignored the $200 tax process, on the guns where the wood and steel is too long or too short, they'll spend over a million dollars watching us for months, then they'll shoot our wives and children or burn us all alive," for which no federal agent has ever spent a single night in jail. And this, mind you, in a nation with a Constitution which guarantees the federal government will never, in any way, "infringe" the right of the people to keep and bear military-style arms. # # # 2) With a lot less politics and a lot more pictures, my second selection this year is also a gun book, Timothy Mullin's "Testing the War Weapons," in which the author actually carries around and test fires virtually every surplus military long arm a modern American can lay hands on (and several we cannot -- who's going to buy (start ital)me(end ital) a Flapper-era, $3,500, fully-automatic Belgian FN-D?), from the widely-ridiculed Italian Carcano ("the JFK rifle"), to the grossly overrated German Gewehr 3. Based on his own quite sensible criteria, Mr. Mullin then fearlessly reports which of these guns actually prove far handier in the field than one might expect ... and which prove quite the opposite. It's a marvellous project well carried out, in which anyone interested in old (or not-so-old) military firearms is likely to find a few pleasant surprises - and probably something to argue with. One very big demerit to the editors at Paladin Press (P.O. Box 1307, Boulder, CO 80306) for the mediocre quality of the B&W photo reproductions in "Testing the War Weapons," and for the horrendous proofreading. But this is still a wonderful book, in 8X10 trade paperback at about $40. 3) No, our friends and relatives are not going to be reading only about guns this holiday season. Anyone interested in alternative medicine or the "War on Drugs" should be happy to receive Steve Kubby's heartfelt and (in the end) heartwarming book, "The Politics of Consciousness," from Loompanics Unlimited, P.O Box 1197, Port Townsend, Wash. 98368. Again, Mr. Kubby's work stands on the shoulders of such predecessors as Jack Herer ("The Emperor Wears No Clothes", Hemp Publishing, Van Nuys, Calif.), Terence McKenna ("The Archaic Revival," from Bantam Books, and "Food of the Gods," from HarperCollins), and Schultes & Hofmann ("Plants of the Gods," Healing Arts Press, Rochester, Vermont) which are widely cited here, and highly recommended (by me) in their own right. Mr. Kubby (this year's Libertarian candidate for governor of California, I believe) is one of those who has come to realize that the War on Drugs is not merely puritanism given the backing of armed government in violation of the First Amendment, but something much more insidious and evil yet: nothing less than the denial of the mental and spiritual health which mankind is meant to be allowed to achieve, through the direct religious experiences of the entheogenic (hallucinogenic) plants. Chapter headings like "The War on Freedom," "Criminalizing Nature," "Western Civilization is the Disease," "Molecular Theology," and "Downloading the Cosmic Design" give some idea of the delightful subversiveness of this 150-page, 8X10 paperback, with its psychedelic cover. But if you want to do some smug Drug Warrior's psyche more harm than would likely be accomplished by 250 micrograms of orange sunshine, simply get him or her to read the six-page chapter "Manna from Heaven." What (start ital)was(end ital) the bread that fell like rain from heaven in Exodus Chapter 16, verse 4? What (start ital)was(end ital) the "small round thing" that "lay as small as the hoar frost on the ground," which had to be eaten immediately in the morning, lest it "breed worms and stink"? What (start ital)was(end ital) the God-given substance which was so holy to the Israelites that they later placed the last of it in a golden pot in the Ark of the Covenant (Hebrews, Chapter 9, verse 3)? Order up a bunch of Mr. Kubby's liberating book, and spread them around. # # # 4) Finally comes a book I firmly and fearlessly recommend, while I also feel obliged to place my readers' interests above any possible sensitivity of the author, and thus to offer an unusual caveat: Just as some patrons of the visual arts have found delight in the very refusal of such "primitives" as Grandma Moses to study the rules of perspective and photographic realism, celebrating on its own terms the resultant cross between "professional" painting and the decorative folk art of the quilted bedspread, so must I note that the novel "TEOTWAWKI -- The End of the World as We Know It," by James Wesley, Rawles (comma as written), soon to be released in trade paperback from Huntington House Publishing as "Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse," succeeds in a similar dimension between professional fiction and the delightfully naive tale-telling of children and the childlike. I got my copy - an 8X10 Internet download with a color-copied cover -- from Mike McNulty (author of the Academy Award-nominated video "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" -- which should be on this list even if it's not a book) and Bob Glass, publisher of the promising new magazine "The Partisan: Journal of the American Freedom Fighter" ($20 per year from P.O. Box 1085, Longmont, CO 80502) at this year's Soldier of Fortune Expo. Still hunting for the first good book to be based on the upcoming "Y2K" crisis, I dug in ... and discovered that Mr. Rawles has indeed put together a thoughtful, thought-provoking, and well-researched survival manual, indicating in highly pragmatic terms how folks might well prepare for social unrest or breakdown of our established economic, commercial and political order in years to come -- prepare not just to squat on some piece of dirt, mind you, but to actually maintain a civilized lifestyle. Then, Mr. Rawles opted to deck out this intriguing, useful research as a work of fiction so bad -- by any traditional measure -- as to cross the line on many occasions into unintentional knee-slapping hilarity. The good guys pray to Jesus before each militia foray, and resist dividing up the gear even of their dead comrades, since that would be "stealing." The bad guys are -- I think I've got this right -- homosexual communists who actually carry around copies of Mao's Little Red Book, and who get their nourishment by preserving the best body parts of the little human babies they murder in their travels. Eventually, Idaho is invaded (of course) by a gang of U.N. mercenaries out of Brussels, though of course they and their tank columns are eventually defeated by the ingenuity and just plain spunk of the outnumbered Patriot defenders. Subtlety? Ambiguity? Not here in God's country, pardner. This thing makes the movie "Red Dawn" (which I also love) look restrained. And yet, in the midst of the nonsense, Mr. Rawles really can write a quite moving, effective, and realistic scene, as when a lone patriot rifleman in a well-chosen position sacrifices himself to inflict dozens of casualties on an advancing enemy column, holding them up for most of a day. But I have given fair warning: Just as Mr. Churchill admitted democracy was a terrible system -- except when compared to all the alternatives -- so is TEOTWAWKI a jaw-droppingly lunkheaded piece of fiction ... behind which is hidden a quite useful book, the first useful working sketch of a "Y2K" scenario which I have yet discovered ... unless we count "Atlas Shrugged" or "A Canticle for Liebowitz" or "A Boy and His Dog," of course. Which we probably should. (Mr. Rawles also sells pre-1899 antique firearms, which can be purchased via mail order without federal controls, via Clearwater Trading Co., P.O. Box 642, Penn Valley, Calif. 95946 -- e-mail rawles at usa.net -- a fine fellow, surely.) Order one of his remaining self-published copies through the same Penn Valley address at about $28, or via Patriot Products, 6595 Odell Place, Suite G, Boulder CO 80301, or ask your local bookstore to locate a copy of the new Huntington House edition, "Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse" (ISBN 1-56384-155-X) from their wholesalers, or via the Huntington House toll free order line at 800-749-4009. And have a merry Christmas. Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin at lvrj.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin at lvrj.com The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it. -- John Hay, 1872 The most difficult struggle of all is the one within ourselves. Let us not get accustomed and adjusted to these conditions. The one who adjusts ceases to discriminate between good and evil. He becomes a slave in body and soul. Whatever may happen to you, remember always: Don't adjust! Revolt against the reality! -- Mordechai Anielewicz, Warsaw, 1943 * * * --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jtl at molehill.org Wed Nov 25 16:09:17 1998 From: jtl at molehill.org (Todd Larason) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:09:17 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811252328.RAA31856@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <19981125153435.C9497@molehill.org> On 981125, Jim Choate wrote: > > > Why is this problematic? Whether it's problematic or not depends on your goals. It gives reason to doubt that your interpretation of the effects of a Convention called under the current constitution would hold, as (as you now say), such a Convention has the power to change the rules by definition. >It's important to remember as well > that the original Constitution had to be ratified by all 13 original states > and not simply 3/4 of them. The choice was unanimous. It didn't have to be: Article. VII. The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the same. There was a time period (I don't know how long, but certainly no more than a few months) where some states were operating underthe Constitution and others were still under the Acts. > So, however the bill get's to Congress they must specify a method for the > states to enact. Now the question is how long does Congress get? I don't think it specifies, but what has always happened is that the *same resolution* which proposes the amendment specifies which ratification method will be used. > If Congress > sits around and does nothing can it stall long enough that they can kill the > amendment process by their own internal procedures? There's only a time limit because Congress has started specifying one, in the same resolution which proposes the amendment and specifies the ratification method. (Exception: in the case of the ERA, I believe they later extended the limit). The power to specify a time limit isn't mentioned in the Constitution as you note, but has also never been tested. -- ICQ UIN: 45940202 From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 25 16:52:57 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:52:57 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) Message-ID: <199811260035.SAA32058@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:34:35 -0800 > From: Todd Larason > Subject: Re: Article V - an analysis (fwd) > On 981125, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > Why is this problematic? > > Whether it's problematic or not depends on your goals. It gives reason to > doubt that your interpretation of the effects of a Convention called under the > current constitution would hold, as (as you now say), such a Convention > has the power to change the rules by definition. How? Explain what part of Article V leaves this hole open. Explain the relevance of the operational proceedures used during the transition from the Articles to the current Constitution to the modification of the Constitution itself within the bounds of its own structure? Congress wasn't even involved in that original process because it didn't technicaly exist until after the ratification. Why would a precedence involving state legislatures be found to hold on a national legislature? There is also the issue that the Constitution once duly implimented is the supreme law of the land and it takes precedence over precedence. This is apples and oranges. Bottem line, if 3/4 of the states ratify there isn't anything that keeps it from being law. The most that Congress can say is whether it's a direct vote in the legislature or a vote by convention. > There was a time period (I don't know how long, but certainly no more than > a few months) where some states were operating underthe Constitution and > others were still under the Acts. Which is relevant how? > I don't think it specifies, but what has always happened is that the *same > resolution* which proposes the amendment specifies which ratification method > will be used. That can't work if the resolution comes from the states. Only Congress has the authority to decide that issue. So the only way a proposed amendment can be placed up for debate and at the same time specify how it is to be voted on at the state level is if it comes from Congress in the first place. A proposal submitted by the states would force the debate of how it was to be decided. Once that was settled it would be passed back to the appropriate state legislature for direct vote or the initiation of a convention if sufficient votes could be found. > There's only a time limit because Congress has started specifying one, in the > same resolution which proposes the amendment and specifies the ratification > method. (Exception: in the case of the ERA, I believe they later extended the > limit). The power to specify a time limit isn't mentioned in the Constitution > as you note, but has also never been tested. I assume your speaking of the prohibition amendments again and their limits (7 years I seem to remember). That raises an interesting point. Suppose that the states submit an amendment proposal, can Congress modify it? I'd say not because of the 10th. If they could then the power of the states to submit amendments would be moot. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fnorky at chisp.net Wed Nov 25 16:53:40 1998 From: fnorky at chisp.net (Douglas L. Peterson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:53:40 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis In-Reply-To: <199811252258.QAA31290@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <365CAF45.27B97897@chisp.net> Jim Choate wrote: > > ARTICLE V. > > [Constitution: how amended; proviso.] [snip] > The only sticky wicket I see is the ...proposed by Congress. Does this mean > that Congress can decide which of the two it will recognize? Or does it mean > that Congress can merely express its desire? Or does this apply only to the > bills that were developed in the Congress? There's no time line for Congress > to decide, could this be used to hinder such a process? It seemed very clear to me that the "proposed by Congress" is refering to any amendment proposed by Congress. -Doug From fnorky at chisp.net Wed Nov 25 16:54:36 1998 From: fnorky at chisp.net (Douglas L. Peterson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:54:36 +0800 Subject: How to reign the federal government in... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811252222.QAA31143@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <365CAEA9.791CDC76@chisp.net> Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:53:06 +0000 > > From: "Douglas L. Peterson" > > Subject: Re: How to reign the federal government in... > > > As per Article V, two thirds of the States can call a Convention to > > propose Amendments. I believe this would be 33 of our current 50 states. > > Territories and other holding would have no say in this. At this point, > > if three fourths of the states agree to any proposed Amendments, it becomes > > the law of the land. > > > > We only need two thirds of the States to start the process, but this > > must be done by their Legislatures. > > Which is exactly what I said. The goal of the party would be to get proposed > amendments on the floor each state legislature for vote. [snip] > > > What is needed is a political party that has a representative site in each > > > state capital. Their job is to get proposed amendments to the Constitution > > > on the floor of each body for vote. > > > > Actually, it would not be to get the proposed amendments on the floor. You > > would be putting the proposal for a Convention to amend the Constitution > > on the floor. In addition, depending on the State, the party would likely > > need to have a member elected to that States Legislature. > > Actualy it is. The Convention is only to create the amendment, the actual > vote takes place in the state legislatures, not the convention. > The actual vote takes place in the state legislatures AFTER the convention. The party would need to work for the convention or the proposed amendments would never get the the state legislatures. -Doug www.TheServerFarm.net From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Wed Nov 25 17:35:40 1998 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:35:40 +0800 Subject: Maturity Is Needed Message-ID: In response to: cyp >Jim Choate is so stupid that even when he accidentally gets something >right, he quickly "corrects" himself so that he is wrong again: > >> I had typed x/ln(x) as the asymptotic limit for the number of primes less >> than x. >> >> This is incorrect. It should be, >> >> x/log(x) >>Wrong, doofus. x/ln(x) is the correct asymptotic limit. What role could >>logs to the base 10 possibly play? Do you think God favors the number 10? >>What a fool you are!Your observations over the years usually seemed >>thoughtful, and intelligent, and therefore helpful. What an human waste this guy is. It reminds me of the old days of Reputation. A boorish attack reflects more poorly on the attacker than the victim, if it is an inappropriate attack. Even if stupid, or just mistkaen, a comment here is intended toward a larger, instructive purpose. This idiot just wastes bandwidth. Life's too short for this crap. Perhaps it's worth trying to reason with people a bit: Victorian times, like ours today, were a period of huge changes, which meant behavioral changes. It cannot be an accident that manners, good form, and respectable society merged into the legendary image of modern social graces. It was done of efficiency, and, so, of necessity. Inefficient entities decay in capitalism. Manners were needed for efficiency. Only today do they seem quaint, or insulting of class or social station. They were where the action was, among professionals trying to forge new economic relationships. This immature jerk is gonna lose. An Educated Observer From fnorky at chisp.net Wed Nov 25 17:48:30 1998 From: fnorky at chisp.net (Douglas L. Peterson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:48:30 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811252328.RAA31856@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <365CBB46.34293003@chisp.net> Todd Larason wrote: >> >> Why is this problematic? When the convention was called it was with the >> express goal of replacing the articles. A tacit a priori admission they were >> faulty and needed replacement. > >But that wasn't the goal, at least not the stated goal. The Convention >was called under the procedures specified in the Articles. The Convention >itself decided to change the rules for ratification. If you look at the relevent section of the Articles of Confederation, you will see this is not a problem. The Articles of Confederation Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this Confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State. The convention, the States, and the current Congress did as was required under Article XIII. -Doug www.TheServerFarm.net From jtl at molehill.org Wed Nov 25 17:57:28 1998 From: jtl at molehill.org (Todd Larason) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:57:28 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811252328.RAA31856@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <19981125173059.A10113@molehill.org> On 981126, Douglas L. Peterson wrote: > The Articles of Confederation > Article XIII. > > ... And the Articles of this Confederation shall > be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be > perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made > in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress > of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures > of every State. > The convention, the States, and the current Congress did as was > required under Article XIII. The Convention did not. It produced a document which, by ITS rules, went into effect after having been ratified by 9 of 13 states, not all 13 as required by Article XIII. -- ICQ UIN: 55350095 From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Wed Nov 25 18:22:07 1998 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:22:07 +0800 Subject: Maturity Is Needed Message-ID: <7ef9c8cd7e2dd595bbaa7feafa5a775d@anonymous> In response to: ein >Jim Choate is so stupid that even when he accidentally gets something >right, he quickly "corrects" himself so that he is wrong again: > >> I had typed x/ln(x) as the asymptotic limit for the number of primes less >> than x. >> >> This is incorrect. It should be, >> >> x/log(x) >>Wrong, doofus. x/ln(x) is the correct asymptotic limit. What role could >>logs to the base 10 possibly play? Do you think God favors the number 10? >>What a fool you are!Your observations over the years usually seemed >>thoughtful, and intelligent, and therefore helpful. What an human waste this guy is. It reminds me of the old days of Reputation. A boorish attack reflects more poorly on the attacker than the victim, if it is an inappropriate attack. Even if stupid, or just mistkaen, a comment here is intended toward a larger, instructive purpose. This idiot just wastes bandwidth. Life's too short for this crap. Perhaps it's worth trying to reason with people a bit: Victorian times, like ours today, were a period of huge changes, which meant behavioral changes. It cannot be an accident that manners, good form, and respectable society merged into the legendary image of modern social graces. It was done of efficiency, and, so, of necessity. Inefficient entities decay in capitalism. Manners were needed for efficiency. Only today do they seem quaint, or insulting of class or social station. They were where the action was, among professionals trying to forge new economic relationships. This immature jerk is gonna lose. An Educated Observer From vznuri at netcom.com Wed Nov 25 18:52:02 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:52:02 +0800 Subject: the economist on cybercash Message-ID: <199811260230.SAA07169@netcom13.netcom.com> on disappointing/lackluster acceptance of digital cash.. mondex,visa,1st virtual,digicash etc http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/current/index_fn7557.html From PaulMerrill at acm.org Wed Nov 25 21:58:05 1998 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:58:05 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohelsux) Message-ID: <000a01be18fe$981008a0$1544ae98@default> >>Again, some clueless asshole that can't tell the difference between >>solicited responses and Unsolicited spam mouths off. If you would like >>to talk about someone, talk about the jerk who set up an AIM name using >>the outdated address, not the company that repsonded. >> >>PHM >> >>AKA PHMerrill at AOL.Com (among other names and addresses) > >Again, the clueless asshole known as Paul *H.* Merrill jumps up and defends >AOL, incompetently-written web sites, and morons everywhere. > I obviously don't defend morons everywhere -- I didn't defend Mr Anonymous. >Someone told AOL to mail cypherpunks at toad.com. AOL could have checked to see >if the originating site was under the toad.com domain. This is trivial. They >didn't. It's rather easy to just require that somebody trying to mail an >address under the toad.com domain submit the request from an address under >toad.com. > I regularly send from one domain while requesting a "something" to be dealt with through another domain. (A little something called work, for instance. Shoot, even the ACM.Org address doen't pass that check but it certainly is valid and unambiguously mine. >In other words, Paul, you believe that if somebody goes and types your >address into some system and asks it to send you 512MB of MPEG video, that's >okay because it was solicited. It wasn't solicited by you but somebody >solicited it. > My point exactly -- so when you want to ream someone for the half gig MPEG, ream the requester. >Oops. That's "blatent propoganda." I'd better rephrase. In other words, >Paul, you believe that if somebody goes and types YOUR address into fifty >different systems, signs you up for a bunch of mailing lists, and generally >causes you a lot of inconvenience, that's okay because it was solicited. You >don't know who it was solicited by, but somebody obviously did. If you then >object to the sites sending you mail rather than just silently >unsubscribing yourself every week, are you then just 'some clueless asshole'? > The totality is not Okay. But the individual systems that were solicited to send are not at fault, assuming that they give me an out. OTOH the asshole that requested it all is quite another topic. That "spammer" is the one that should be taken to task. >Are spammers now not to be held accountable for their spamming because they >bought a list of addresses from someone who claimed that the people all >asked to be on the mailing list? > there is a significant difference between buying a list and answering a request. Granted that the net effect of having a confirmation message sent to some one person shows little difference, but the methodology and intent are nt the same at all. >Why don't we just sign Cypherpunks up for Ignition-Point, the FP list, the >ACLU action advisories, Sixdegrees, and whatever else we can find? Or should >We just sign up Paul, really, because he doesn't have a problem with this. >In fact I'm sure we could make some 'marketting research' to show that he >might be interested. Hey let's get the entire CDR subscription list and >sign everybody up for FP and ACLU because if you're on Cypherpunks you're >obviously interested in those things. The analogous activities have been going on for many years and they have never been a Good Thing. > >The root of the problem is sites which require email addresses for no good >reason, and/or don't have the decency to perform a simple check to see if >the domains match. They're lazy. They're irresponsible. When confronted, no >matter how civil, they react much like you do, Paul, and they don't want to >be inconvenienced by having to fix their usually badly-designed web sites. > Anyone that believes that a domain check will do anything other than check a domain is delusional. Hey, they even think like the post awful -- one person, one email address. >If I recall correctly Tim has the same opinion and has stated it a few >times as have others so I'm not alone. > >Now I leave you, Paul, so you can go back to your 24 hour vigil and you and >your quick response team can scour the net for attacks against AOL and the >true clueless assholes, and defend them with your last breath. > Why, thank you. But it is not really needed. >Yet Another 'Clueless Asshole' > I never cease to be amazed at how little grasp of the concept of causality so many presumably technically literate people are today. When one wishes to remove a problem, it is a much better approach to attack the cause than to attack the symptom. PHM From PaulMerrill at acm.org Wed Nov 25 22:09:23 1998 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:09:23 +0800 Subject: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohels Message-ID: <005d01be1901$01b2a860$1544ae98@default> -----Original Message----- From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer To: paul h. merrill ; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 12:20 AM Subject: Re: Re: Netscape AOL Instant Messenger Confirmation (kB3bEjeb1I aohels >Do you even bother to read the posts you try to flame? Read the last part of >that. > Yes, I do. I do not buy the domain check idea due to the unworkability in a changing and multi-faceted society. I do not buy the concept the anyone that sends a piece that you don't want is a "spammer" (there really are enough of them out there already without diluting the Title through misnomers.) I do not buy attacking symptoms and ignoring causes -- and in this case Causers. PHM >Paul H. Merrill wrote: >> >>Again, some clueless asshole that can't tell the difference between >>solicited responses and Unsolicited spam mouths off. If you would like >>to talk about someone, talk about the jerk who set up an AIM name using >>the outdated address, not the company that repsonded. >> >>PHM >> >>AKA PHMerrill at AOL.Com (among other names and addresses) >> >>Anonymous wrote: >>> >>> This does wonders for my opinion of AOL. Even the administration has no clue. >>> >>> AOL administration spammed the Cypherpunks list, using >>> an address for Cypherpunks which has been defunct for over a year now, with: >>> >>> >Thank you for registering for Netscape AOL Instant Messenger! >>> > >>> >Your registration for screen name aohelsux has been received. >>> > >>> >Please reply to this message within 48 hours to complete >>> >the registration process. Simply reply to the present message >>> >and type 'OK' as the text of your message. >>> >>> P.S. "Well they just responded to an address someone gave them," like >>> certain advocates of AOL, lamers, and Microsoft we have on the list have >>> said, is not an excuse. It's easy to set up domain validation. The spammers >>> just don't care. From BADJEEP97 at aol.com Thu Nov 26 02:17:43 1998 From: BADJEEP97 at aol.com (BADJEEP97 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:17:43 +0800 Subject: CABLE TV DESCRAMBLER........Now Only $7.00 ! Message-ID: This is really cool! PREMIUM CHANNELS........Descrambled! EASY to assemble plans for only $7.00 ! YOU WILL BE WATCHING all your FAVORITE PAY STATIONS featuring MOVIES, SPORTS. Adult entertainment, and any other scrambled signal NEXT WEEK! You can EASILY assemble a cable descrambler in less than 30 minutes! You have probably seen many advertisments for similar plans......... BUT OURS are BETTER! 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WE have secured a supply of the capacitors directly from the manufacturer and We WILL include one with your plans for an ADDITIONAL $10.00 only! All you need now is the EASY TO ASSEMBLE plans to show you how this educational device in 30 MINUTES! It is LEGAL, providing of course you use these plans for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES only. See first hand and LEARN how this SIMPLE circuitry works! If you intend to use these plans for any other purpose DO NOT ORDER them. IT'S FUN TO BUILD! We're sure you'll enjoy this project! This is a unique opportunity for hobbiest of ANY skill level to learn simple circuitry! Learn how easy descrambling is! $ 7.00 for plans only $10.00 for variable capacitor only $17.00 for The easy to assemble plans and one variable capacitor! Please send check or money order payable to: Kraftworks P.O. Box 11752 San Rafael, Ca. 94912 WE pay postage and handling! Please allow 14 days for delivery. This is a one time only mailing! You have already been placed on our remove list and will not receive another offer from us! Thank You From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 26 11:24:00 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:24:00 +0800 Subject: ATF funding voice recognition research Message-ID: <199811261657.RAA16004@replay.com> ATF - Proof of concept task - Prototype automated firearms licensing and verification system which integrated voice recognition and reverse voice recognition, telecommunication, Internet to query ATF database across LANs and WANs http://www.0-1.com/y_ats.htm The company doing the research seems to be a beltway-bandit ("minority owned" mil-welfare) type place. They're also evaluating sniffers for DISA... "Semtex --better than duct tape" From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 26 11:24:02 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:24:02 +0800 Subject: enemy of the state movie Message-ID: <199811261745.JAA08594@netcom13.netcom.com> fun wired article on new movie "enemy of the state" with privacy /cpunk implications. bamford quoted, info on NSA, rotenberg, spy satellites, etc. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/16507.html happy xgiving folks I am thankful for cyberspace From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 26 11:24:02 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:24:02 +0800 Subject: salon article reply Message-ID: <199811261801.KAA09463@netcom13.netcom.com> dear Mr. Lasica: your article is mostly fair and accurate but fails to delve into some obvious and basic issues. 1st, check out david brin's recent book on privacy.. you cover only a tiny facet of the issues, of people that argue privacy should be protected. consider a very interesting alternative view.. 2nd: it is easy to take any digital image of a naked woman and paste the head of any other person on top of it, to the point that it is indistiguishable from a real picture. tell this to the mother of the daughter who's naked pictures were posted. 3rd: you fail to mention anonymity/pseudonymity, the starkly obvious solution to all the pseudo-problems you raise. your article is fairly mild but reflects the constant refrain of journalists to phrase every news story as some kind of looming or scary crisis. the issues you speak of have been debated among cpunks for years with more insight. not expecting you to know abut cpunks, but you coulda done a teeny better on that article. a decent article nonetheless on important issues.. please purchase a few clues from the nearest cpunks and try,try again. take care From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Nov 26 11:24:30 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:24:30 +0800 Subject: old posts saved/archived/privacy article, salon Message-ID: <199811261752.JAA08923@netcom13.netcom.com> salon article on how old posts are saved on the net, and how it affects privacy. "I felt helpless and violated" sez one poor hapless chic http://www.salonmagazine.com/21st/ From holist at mail.matav.hu Thu Nov 26 11:28:48 1998 From: holist at mail.matav.hu (holist) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:28:48 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811261817.KAA27682@toad.com> I wonder if this is also old hat to you people. If it turns out to be another FAQ, I promise to read some. At a conference in Budapest yesterday (held by Network Associates) I was interpreting for a certain professor Christoph Fischer, from Karlsruhe University. He claimed to be a premier international hacker-hunter and described several fascinating cases, such as industrial espionage performed by the French secret service commissioned by French companies at Boeing and Siemens (the latter resulting in a 6 billion Deutschmark railway contract going to a French company rather than Siemens), as well as a case of extortion in Germany, when someone he referred to as "some crazy person" attempted to blackmail the German government by threatening to fly model aircraft into the turbines of commercial jet aircraft at take-off, which, as it turned out, is indeed a feasible means of causing a major disaster. The professor was called in by a panicky German government, about ready to send off the cash, to try to locate "the crazy person". The extortionist was sending the notes via e-mail, using what the professor referred to as "e-mail anonymiser servers" in the US. "This is not too widely publicised", he went on to say, "but all insiders are aware that all e-mail anonymiser services in the U.S. are operated by the FBI." He went on to say it took them about ten minutes to discover with the help of their American friends which account the mail was originating from. A more serious obstacle was posed by the fact that it was an AOL account and that the subscriber had specified a bogus credit-card number generated by widely available software for generating feasible bogus credit-card numbers, and installed the internet applications from one of those AOL CD-ROMs that were published in very large numbers. They were forced to begin monitoring some 30 thousand phonelines (another very interesting fact: according to the professor, during the so-called "4+2" negotiations just before the Berlin wall came down, the two Germanies agreed to provide the FBI with direct access to the backbone of the German telephone network - consequently all German telephone calls and a high percentage of all European international calls, so they could listen in on those without even making an effort - in fact, he claimed, it is easier for the FBI to listen to German phonecalls than it is for the German authorities themselves), which, in addition to costing a horrendous amount of money, resulted in a bunch of data every day that took them two days to process. So, Fischer said, it would have been hopeless if the fellow had not owed the German tax authority one and a half million Marks - the tax authority busted him (following the lines of their own, independent investigation), took his computer, and he was busted. Quite a few of the messages to cypherpunks seem to come from anonymous remailers in the US. Comments? holist From jim.burnes at ssds.com Thu Nov 26 12:03:02 1998 From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes - Denver) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 04:03:02 +0800 Subject: enemy of the state movie In-Reply-To: <199811261745.JAA08594@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > fun wired article on new movie "enemy of the state" > with privacy /cpunk implications. bamford quoted, > info on NSA, rotenberg, spy satellites, etc. > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/16507.html > In this article Judy DeMocker writes.... The scenario of an innocent man being digitally hounded through tunnel and building, traced to pay phones and 7-Eleven surveillance systems, and exposed by a digital trail of personal information, is overblown. Most store cameras are not hooked up to outside systems, and databases are not so rapidly accessible that a government agent could pull up a suspect's past addresses, personal history, bank, and telephone records in the blink of an eye. I don't know about pay phone tracing, though I imagine voice print identification could be done. Don't know what 7-eleven does with their videocams other than record it onto video tape, but I can speak about the databases... Pulling up a suspects past addresses, personal history, bank and telephone records can be done very quickly. Past addresses and personal history could be pulled very rapidly through credit agencies. Mean income level, kids, their ages, past employment etc. I've seen this done in about 20 or 30 seconds. Bank records could probably be snatched from FINCEN. Telephone records might take a court order if done legally, but I wouldn't put it past FBI or CIA to infiltrate telephone companies. CIA was already found to be infiltrating the press when investigated by the Church commission. What have they done since? For those that have done background investigations on these agencies this is a little like expecting to be shocked when told "sister smokes!" For those that have been to busy to check or care it might come as a surprise. For Wired it's inexcusable. If they would be remove just 5% of the hype and replace it with a little reality it might be a lot for valuable. Wired's editors need to pay a little bit more attention to detail. That being said I haved enjoyed some of the articles, such as those by Declan and Charles Platt. A little less flourescent ink, a little more content. jim From JamezHill at Audiophile.com Thu Nov 26 12:23:06 1998 From: JamezHill at Audiophile.com (James Hillenbrand) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 04:23:06 +0800 Subject: Anon Mail Server? Message-ID: <4.1.19981126144821.00944b80@pophost.suffolk.lib.ny.us> What is a good server that I could send mail through anonymously.. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -------==== James Hillenbrand ====------- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ICQ NUMBER (UIN) : 7621556 PERSONAL E-MAIL : JamezHill at Audiophile.com ALT. E-MAIL : MegaHertz at Audiophile.com HOMEPAGE : http://www.ThePentagon.com/DaMaGe NOTES : Pumpin' BASS lower than you can hear and louder than you can stand! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From weidai at eskimo.com Thu Nov 26 16:07:43 1998 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:07:43 +0800 Subject: PipeNet 1.1 and b-money Message-ID: <19981126153349.A12001@eskimo.com> I've discovered some attacks against the original PipeNet design. The new protocol, PipeNet 1.1, should fix the weaknesses. PipeNet 1.1 uses layered sequence numbers and MACs. This prevents a collusion between a receiver and a subset of switches from tracing the caller by modifying or swaping packets and then watching for garbage. A description of PipeNet 1.1 is available at http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai. Also available there is a description of b-money, a new protocol for monetary exchange and contract enforcement for pseudonyms. Please direct all follow-up discussion of these protocols to cypherpunks. From smoyzis at ameritech.net Thu Nov 26 16:26:32 1998 From: smoyzis at ameritech.net (Steve Moyzis) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:26:32 +0800 Subject: PipeNet 1.1 and b-money Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981126175936.4c4f8cc2@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> I don't know if this was supposed to have gone to Bugtraq, or it came to me because I 'visited' their "snoop server" acoupla times. If you already rec'd the original, then "Never Mind". >Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:33:49 -0800 >From: Wei Dai >To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Cc: onions at itd.nrl.navy.mil >Subject: PipeNet 1.1 and b-money >Sender: owner-onions at itd.nrl.navy.mil > >I've discovered some attacks against the original PipeNet design. The new >protocol, PipeNet 1.1, should fix the weaknesses. PipeNet 1.1 uses layered >sequence numbers and MACs. This prevents a collusion between a receiver >and a subset of switches from tracing the caller by modifying or swaping >packets and then watching for garbage. > >A description of PipeNet 1.1 is available at >http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai. > >Also available there is a description of b-money, a new protocol for >monetary exchange and contract enforcement for pseudonyms. > >Please direct all follow-up discussion of these protocols to cypherpunks. > From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 26 18:19:38 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:19:38 +0800 Subject: Rootfest Message-ID: <199811270149.CAA30480@replay.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/98/11/26/1841245.shtml "RootFest is a conference for the computer underground, as well as the computer security professionals, engineers, networking people, feds, script kiddies, and anyone else who would like a chance to meet people and learn. When: RootFest 99 will be held May 21-23, 1999. Where: Minneapolis, Minnesota,..." RootMonger From nobody at replay.com Thu Nov 26 20:58:34 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:58:34 +0800 Subject: Old Hat Message-ID: <199811270421.FAA13900@replay.com> On the morning of Thurs, 26-Nov-98 at 10:17:48 -0800, holist unwisely said: > "This is not too widely publicised", he went on to say, > "but all insiders are aware that all e-mail anonymiser > services in the U.S. are operated by the FBI." > Quite a few of the messages to cypherpunks seem to come > from anonymous remailers in the US. > > Comments? Comment? COMMENTS? How about this, FUDSpreaderBreath: Stick Fischer and his claims up your ass. This is not too widely publicised , I went on to say, but all insiders are aware that this kind of FUD is unadulterated ratshit. While there is no doubt _some_ official presence in the remailer network, the proposition advanced here is preposterous. > He went on to say it took them about ten minutes to > discover with the help of their American friends which > account the mail was originating from. It would probably take more than ten minutes just to find the phone number of their FBI contact, much less find him at his desk and not humping some summer intern, much less expect that he would know a remailer from his no doubt ultra-tight asshole, much less have him run down the pointy-haired manager to give him permission to find and communicate with a suitably cleared propellor head, much less find that the remailer in question was, indeed, operated either by them or by their snaky friends over at the NSA, much less check their surreptitious logs for the offending traffic, much less find that that traffic indeed did not originate from another remailer _not_ under their control, etc. etc. Ten minutes, in bureaucrat time, is about what it takes to rub two brain cells together to make a realistic approximation of a human thought. By this time, action in the physical universe is still a long, long way off. This report is likely to be nothing more than a complete fabrication of the facts, even if the underlying case was real. > just before the Berlin wall came down, the two Germanies > agreed to provide the FBI with direct access to the > backbone of the German telephone network Except that telephone networks don't have "backbones." More fantasy. And there was no single "German telephone network," and probably still isn't. > it is easier for the FBI to listen to German phonecalls > than it is for the German authorities themselves), which, > in addition to costing a horrendous amount of money, > resulted in a bunch of data every day that took them two > days to process. Highly doubtful. First, it's not in the FBI's brief to be doing large-scale foreign-based surveillance of foreign telephone systems. Second, there is no reason to believe that the FBI would have a substantially easier time of processing large amounts of resulting data than would the Germans. The Germans know how to use computers, too, and being congenitally statist, they no doubt have more facilities in place closer to the sources of information than do U.S. authorities at home or abroad. This claim also ignores the fact that the FBI have their hands full right at home and don't have the resources to be conducting large-scale surveillance of the phone calls of entire foreign nations. Oh, sure, we see increasing extraterritorial operation by small numbers of FBI, but that doesn't equate to monitoring the entire German phone system(s) or a significant segment thereof and identifying some nitwit dialing in to AOL. Is AOL even _in_ Germany? If so, what is it called, GOL? Gassholes On Line? The idea that a state security apparatus would find an AOL account to be a significant obstacle is laughable. > So, Fischer said, it would have been hopeless if the > fellow had not owed the German tax authority one and > a half million Marks - the tax authority busted him > (following the lines of their own, independent > investigation), took his computer, and he was busted. So we are to believe that after monitoring the entire German telephone system to identify who was calling in and using a particular AOL account, and successfully pegging him, the Germans were powerless to do anything, and had to call down their Tax Zombies to have an excuse to grab the guy's computer, which presumably then provided them with the "evidence" against him. Right. If the German authorities overhear in a bar that you might have forbidden literature, they will be there the same night, ransacking your home. How is it that with evidence that a certain person was the user of an AOL account they had identified as the source of extortionary messages, they were powerless to break down his door? I could admire the FUD spreaders just a teensy bit if they weren't so completely brain dead. They can't even invent a plausible FUD scenario. That the USG is operating one or more remailers is a no-brainer. That they are operating _all_ U.S. remailers is beyond the realm of reality. That the FBI has more than a casual hand in such things is not likely. Running remailers would be right up the NSA's, uh, alley, but maintaining a traffic watch on virtually _all_ remailers worldwide would be much more their style. Now _there's_ an opportunity for the spooks to have some real fun, though it's anything but certain they would be willing to "share," for a variety of reasons. The capabilities they have are protected as secrets even more than the information they gather. FUDBusterMonger It Ain't FUD til I SAY it's FUD! From Wolfgang.Scherer at gmx.de Thu Nov 26 22:55:49 1998 From: Wolfgang.Scherer at gmx.de (Wolfgang Scherer) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:55:49 +0800 Subject: Old Hat In-Reply-To: <199811270421.FAA13900@replay.com> Message-ID: <13918.17985.297162.770002@farmer.simul.de> >>>>> "A" == Anonymous writes: A> Is AOL even _in_ Germany? If so, what is it called, GOL? A> Gassholes On Line? Yes it is. It's called AOL. "Alles On-Line" == "All [of it] On Line". But it also translates well to "Arschl�cher On-Line" == "Assholes On Line". :) From brownrk1 at texaco.com Fri Nov 27 03:19:41 1998 From: brownrk1 at texaco.com (Brown, R Ken) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:19:41 +0800 Subject: Evil Bandwidth Plot Exposed Message-ID: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F85CB@MSX11002> We're still getting clueless people forwarding us email virus hoaxes. Pen-Pal, Buddy Frogs, Good Times, whatever. And I just realised who has to be responsible! Who has a motive for this "crime"? These things do no-one any real harm, they just take up bandwidth. Networks get saturated and maybe we have to buy more kit. It must be the router manufacturers. Maybe there is a secret team at Cisco or IBM generating new hoaxes to keep the email market growing. From emc at wire.insync.net Fri Nov 27 10:12:19 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 02:12:19 +0800 Subject: A tad more on Goldbach's... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199811271736.LAA15186@wire.insync.net> Tim Writes to Jim Choate: > Ditto for your bizarre theories about how electric fields work, about > how charges inside conducting spheres don't follow Gauss's Law, and > other crankish theories about electricity. Don't forget Mr. SQUID, which can read the registers on your tamper-resistant smartcard from several miles away. :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 27 11:55:42 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 03:55:42 +0800 Subject: Scientific American: Science and the Citizen: BEATING THE TEMPEST: (fwd) Message-ID: <199811271931.NAA02644@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: >From stugreen at realtime.net Fri Nov 27 00:31:17 1998 Sender: root at coney.lsd-labs.com Message-ID: <365E45CB.549F4085 at realtime.net> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:25:15 +0000 From: Stu Green X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ravage at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Scientific American: Science and the Citizen: BEATING THE TEMPEST: December 1998 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.sciam.com/1998/1298issue/1298techbus4.html From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 27 16:18:38 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:18:38 +0800 Subject: Otaku Defined Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 05:31:08 -0500 X-Sender: dphelan at mailhost.pavilion.co.uk Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:45:22 +0000 To: "Lord Myren" , wear-hard at haven.org From: David Phelan Subject: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Otaku Defined (was Re: Japanese Technomads ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Resent-From: wear-hard at haven.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5977 X-Loop: wear-hard at haven.org Precedence: list Resent-Sender: wear-hard-request at haven.org Status: U At 13:16 25/11/1998 PST, Lord Myren wrote: >Otaku is translated from japanese meaning "fan." This is a somewhat >flawed translation in that there is no way to transfer the powerful >connotative meaning. > >Unfortunately, I believe something was lost in the translation in the >article. Otaku is rarely used in refence to things other than anime. >This article may have failed the translation or may just be a minor >mislabeling. Otaku can be used in reference to things other than anime, >however it is rarely ever so. >From a no-longer online magazine called JapanInterface (used to be at http://www.php.co.jp/japaninface/): Nerds of a Feather Defining OTAKU by Bill Marsh IN TOKYO a recently arrived friend calls, wants to know daishikyu (ASAP, yesterday) what otaku means. He's just been told by a mutual acquaintance that no serious student of contemporary Japan could possibly not know this word-yet his Japanese accuser, when asked to define otaku, refuses even to try. It isn't easy. Once upon a time, this word-which taken alone translates as "[your] honorable house"-was no more than an obsequious, laboriously indirect way to say "you" or "you and yours." Snobs and bluestockings will use it, but there's nothing inherently sinister about the expression. The story doesn't end there. Japan has long produced bumper crops of korekuta ("collectors" of rare stamps, cars, etc) and mania (folks with a "mania" for Beatles bootlegs, etc) who gather at conventions to compare notes and stockpiles. Haughty yet insecure, many greet each other by asking, Otaku wa nani o nasatteru desu ka? This fastidious formula for inquiring "What're you into?" or "What's your thing?" became a trademark, prompting trend-watchers to smugly label them otaku-zoku (nerd tribes). Enter Tsutomu Miyazaki, arrested in 1989 and eventually charged with the abduction and murder of four little girls. Here was a man capable of videotaping himself cutting up a dead child and sending her bones, the video, and photos of her sandals and clothes to the victim's parents in a cardboard box. When a search of his premises uncovered an eclectic collection of 5,000 videotapes, the image of otaku as benign, shy dorks disintegrated. Surprise! Japan's police and media, used to playing to the crowd and blandly riding herd on the occasional misfit, discovered during the affluent 1980s that their grip on a population easily tamed by fears of what the neighbors might think was slipping. Popping up all over were intense, asocial creatures on very private missions for very private gods. Shunning contact with all but their brethren in obsession, they sent to o-mawari-san (the neighborhood cops who in Japan regularly "check up" on each household) a silent but clear message: Nothing personal, but what I'm into is the kind of thing you and people like you would never understand. Are otaku garden-variety nerds? Psychopaths? Undesirables? What otaku connotes depends on who you ask. Example: A producer friend recently berated his director on an NHK project for shooting from otaku camera angles. The point? He wanted to make a TV program for general audiences, not film-school coteries. The foreword to the superb but dated (1989) Otaku no hon (The Otaku Book, published by JICC) argues that otaku are strictly a post-1980 phenomenon, not the latest gimmick in the ephemeral parade of zoku (tribes) that postwar youth-culture reportage has served up. Their break with the values of seken (the "real world," as the editor parenthetically labels it in English) is not a byproduct of kodoku (isolation) or seijuku (adolescence). Rather, otaku desire to dokuji no sekai ni chujitsu ni ikiru (live faithfully in their own world) and find a ba (place, outlet) to meet others who onaji genso o kyoyu suru (share the same fantasy). The editor offers the example of the rorikon (otaku with a "Lolita complex"): deeply unwilling to become men (i.e., husbands and salarymen), they partake instead of kyodo genso (communal fantasy) via comic books about kaku no bi-shojo (imaginary beautiful girlchildren). Their female equivalents in ambivalence are the yaoi-zoku, girls hooked on perverted, plotless, sexually explicit parodies of conventional comics about the friendship between cute boys. Obviously neither homosexual nor homophobic, both groups prefer the chaste option of onani (onanism) to the perceived compromises of marital consummation. Otaku no hon presents an amazing variety of strategies for sidestepping the social compact. Even familiar types like hakka ("hackers"), gema ("gamers," computer game freaks), or aidorian ("idol-ians," who fixate on singing idols) seem more over the top than their American counterparts. Others, like kamera-kozo ("li'l camera monks" who sneak crotch shots with concealed strobe cameras) and akushon banda ("action banders" devoted to cracking officially "secure" radio and computer systems), aggressively court risks to enact their pranks. Whatever their stripe, the otaku are out there in droves, rifling through the latest aniparoetchimangadojinshi (animation-parody-pervert-comic-connoisseur-mag) at the corner bookstore, terrified that any minute they'll be eaten alive by common sense. from Pop Japanese, Bill Marsh's ongoing column in MANGAJIN magazine Hope that is useful Dave Ph -------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Phelan dphelan at pavilion.co.uk CCIE# 3590 http://freepages.pavilion.net/users/dphelan "Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation." -- Edward R. Murrow -- Subcription/unsubscription/info requests: send e-mail with subject of "subscribe", "unsubscribe", or "info" to wear-hard-request at haven.org Wear-Hard Mailing List Archive (searchable): http://wearables.ml.org --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 27 18:18:12 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:18:12 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (RAM) under Windows") (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811232327.RAA23206@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981127120630.00902100@idiom.com> At 05:27 PM 11/23/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >> From: "Jim Adler" >> The SCNSM driver supports allocation of non-swappable memory on Windows >> 3.x/95/98. The principal design goal of SCNSM is to provide memory that will >> not be swapped to disk, under any circumstances. Typically, security >> applications require such memory to store private keys, passwords, and >> sensitive intermediate results of cryptographic calculations. >1. Is it OpenSource? Is this a religious argument? I think he said it was copyrighted freeware, so use it and leave the copyright notices in and you're ok. >2. I assume since it never swaps to disk the memory requirements for the > computer are large. What is the minimum suggested if one runs say > 5 apps that each require 16M each, 5*16M & OS overhead? Bad Assumption. The memory requirements are whatever you want; if you're storing a few private keys, or intermediate calculation results, the requirements are very small; if you're storing 16MB databases, they're much larger. For today, 16MB seems large enough that I'd think you'd use a crypto-disk or instead of nailing it into RAM, but the boundaries between huge, routine, and small keep moving in this business, so maybe you do now, and you will soon enough. Does anybody know if Win95/98 keeps RAMdisks in RAM, or swaps them out to real disk along with other least-recently-used data? Since I've got 48MB RAM on my laptop, I keep a 2MB RAMdisk around for PGP decrypts, and for temporary storage of things like emailed ZIP files. > And what is the suggested OS overhead with no swap to disk? > (OK, that last one might be a 3rd question) That's a good question. My guess is that it's probably 0-2KB, plus however big the drivers are, might be as big as 64KB, but presumably isn't 1MB. In other words, too small to worry about on recent machines, where an extra 16MB RAM costs $10, but if you're using that spare 4MB 386 as a remailer, you've got to be more careful. On the other hand, if the driver does anything for real-mode DOS processes running on top of Windows, it wouldn't surprise me if you've got to nail down 640KB while they're running? But you knew that job was clunky when you took it. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 27 18:18:25 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:18:25 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811252328.RAA31856@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981127000007.008f8af0@idiom.com> At 03:34 PM 11/25/98 -0800, Todd Larason wrote: >On 981125, Jim Choate wrote: >> If Congress >> sits around and does nothing can it stall long enough that they can kill the >> amendment process by their own internal procedures? > >There's only a time limit because Congress has started specifying one, in the >same resolution which proposes the amendment and specifies the ratification >method. (Exception: in the case of the ERA, I believe they later extended the >limit). The power to specify a time limit isn't mentioned in the Constitution >as you note, but has also never been tested. The most recent amendment (27th?) sat around for nearly 200 years before 3/4 of the states ratified it, (preventing Congress from raising their salaries during their current term.) The power to specify a time limit doesn't need separate mention; the time limit is either part of the proposed amendment, or it isn't, and it's part of the negotiations for getting Congress to pass it. The more dangerous problem is that people keep suggesting a Constitutional Convention, which has basically no limits on its scope (especially given the one previous precedent, which substantially increased Federal power beyond the limits of the Articles, and didn't require unanimous consent to adopt its product, though the Articles required it for changing them.) Even if the states _say_ they're limiting their delegation to specific tasks, that doesn't mean the ConCon won't exceed them, and if it gets sufficient media/public support, it can get away with it. Don't expect the 2nd, 9th, or 10th amendments to survive a ConCon at all, or the 1st to have any meaning resembling its current limited one, or the 4th or 5th to get by without "except for drugs or other politically incorrect substances" attached to it, or the definitions of rights or powers to resemble what you want. (There have been some Libertarian proposals to add "and this time we mean it" to the end of the 9th and 10th, or to add a period after the 1st's "Congress shall make no law", but they're not in keeping with the spirit of the age :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 27 18:27:21 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:27:21 +0800 Subject: manners.... In-Reply-To: <3653653A.1FD92C2B@students.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981127122206.00902100@idiom.com> At 08:54 AM 11/19/98 +0800, Bernardo B. Terrado wrote: >Well I thought this list was a list of intellectuals, not only good in >hacks and coding and programming and the likes but also well "tailored" >with their manners, I have posted similar mails asking something but I >have never received one like this. At least the less obvious thing to do >is to ignore my message, simply delete it!, is that a hard thing to do? Yo, Bernie - until you started asking for pirated commercial software, I was wondering whether you were trolling by asking newbie questions or just a real newbie who hadn't looked at any of the literature yet. Knapsacks are, after all, broken long ago, and anything written since about 1980 that talks about them will also say that. I'd recommend getting Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography" and spending a while with it, then looking for academic stuff beyond that if you want, and also reading the documentation for PGP for practical stuff (in particular, Phil's comments on Snake Oil.) There are also some FAQs out there, such as the sci.crypt FAQ. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 27 18:30:09 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:30:09 +0800 Subject: bogus Hungarian disinformation. In-Reply-To: <199811261817.KAA27682@toad.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981126220233.008f83d0@idiom.com> At 10:17 AM 11/26/98 -0800, holist wrote: >I wonder if this is also old hat to you people. If it turns out to be >another FAQ, I promise to read some. > [Bogus saga deleted, about extortionist using anonymizers threatening > the German government, and claiming the FBI runs the anonymizers.] I haven't _seen_ Lance Cottrell's NSA ID badge, but many of the hard-core cypherpunks have them - it's amazing how official things look when they're laminated in plastic! Even the one with Hugh Daniel in a tie... Anonymizers don't do very well for extortion yet. Sending the anonymous message is the easy part - paper mail is much better at anonymity, since there's much more of it, and the default collection methods in most countries are anonymous. Then you've got to get the targets to READ email - some do, some don't. Email to most politicians is like paper mail to most of them - gets sorted by the pound, and if there's money attached you'll get a thank-you note. It's collecting the ransom money that's hard - without Digicash, there's no good anonymous payment mechanism. >Quite a few of the messages to cypherpunks seem to come from anonymous >remailers in the US. I usually post anonymous postings from the Netherlands, myself. It simplifies jurisdictional questions. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 27 18:37:24 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:37:24 +0800 Subject: European Commission proposal on legal framework for e-commerce Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981126234500.008f8af0@idiom.com> Forwarded from cyberia-l -- The EU's latest attempts to make electronic commerce convenient while ensuring tax collection and preventing collapse of governments :-) ========= ==== ]] THe text of the new draft is not on line yet, but will probably appear at ]] http://europa.eu.int/comm/dg15/en/index.htm in the next few days (there is ]] a what's new button on the left hand bar) >>> Should be on line on Nov 23rd } Another URL to remember to get acces to european documents } concerning Internet law is : } http://www2.echo.lu/legal/en/labhome.html and for "what's new : } http://www2.echo.lu/legal/en/labnew.html =============== http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p_action.gettxt=gt&doc=IP/98/999|0|RAPID&lg=EN IP/98/999 Brussels, 18 November 1998 Electronic commerce: Commission proposes legal framework A proposal for a Directive to establish a coherent legal framework for the development of electronic commerce within the Single Market has been put forward by the European Commission. The proposed Directive would ensure that information society services benefit from the Single Market principles of free movement of services and freedom of establishment and could provide their services throughout the European Union (EU) if they comply with the law in their country of origin. Such services are defined as those provided normally against remuneration, at a distance, by electronic means and in response to the individual request of a customer. The proposed Directive would establish specific harmonised rules only in those areas strictly necessary to ensure that businesses and citizens could supply and receive information society services throughout the EU, irrespective of frontiers. These areas include definition of where operators are established, electronic contracts, liability of intermediaries, dispute settlement and role of national authorities. In other areas the Directive would build on existing EU instruments which provide for harmonisation or on mutual recognition of national laws. The Directive would apply only to service providers established within the EU and not those established outside. "The Single Market's legal framework, combined with the single currency, provide the European Union with a unique opportunity to facilitate the development of electronic commerce", commented Single Market Commissioner Mario Monti. "Electronic commerce adds a new dimension to the Single Market for consumers in terms of easier access to goods and services of better quality and at lower prices. Electronic commerce will promote trade, stimulate innovation and competitiveness and create sustainable jobs. This proposal should ensure that the Union reaps the full benefits of electronic commerce by boosting consumer confidence and giving operators legal certainty, without excessive red tape." The global electronic commerce market is growing extremely fast and could be worth ECU 200 billion by the year 2000. Worldwide, 86 million people were connected to the Internet by the end of 1996 and by 2000, this is expected to reach 250 million individuals. Within the EU, it is estimated that more than 400,000 jobs related to the information society were created between 1995 and 1997 and that one in four news jobs is derived from these activities. Scope The proposal for a Directive, which was foreseen in the Commission's April 1997 electronic commerce Communication (see IP/97/313), covers all information society services, both business to business and business to consumer services, including services provided free of charge to the recipient e.g. funded by advertising or sponsorship revenue and services allowing for on-line electronic transactions such as interactive teleshopping of goods and services and on-line shopping malls. Examples of sectors and activities covered include on-line newspapers, on-line data-bases, on-line financial services, on-line professional services (such as lawyers, doctors, accountants, estate agents), on-line entertainment services such as video on demand, on-line direct marketing and advertising and services providing access to the World Wide Web. Establishment/supervision/transparency The proposal would define the place of establishment as the place where an operator actually pursues an economic activity through a fixed establishment, irrespective of where websites or servers are situated or where the operator may have a mail box. This definition is in line with the principles established by the EU Treaty (Article 52) and the case law of the European Court of Justice. Such a definition would remove current legal uncertainty and ensure that operators could not evade supervision, as they would be subject to supervision in the Member State where they were established. The proposal would prohibit Member States from imposing special authorisation schemes for information society services which are not applied to the same services provided by other means. It would also require Member States to oblige information society service providers to make available to customers and competent authorities in an easily accessible and permanent form basic information concerning their activities (name, address, e-mail address, trade register number, professional authorisation and membership of professional bodies where applicable, VAT number). On-line contracts For electronic commerce to develop its full potential, it must be possible for contracts to be concluded on-line unrestricted by inappropriate rules (such as a requirement that contracts be drawn up on paper). The proposal would therefore oblige Member States to adjust their national legislation to remove any prohibitions or restrictions on the use of electronic media for concluding contracts. In addition, the proposal would ensure legal security by clarifying in certain cases the moment of conclusion of the contract, whilst fully respecting contractual freedom. These provisions would complement the proposal for a Directive on electronic signatures (see IP/98/423). Liability of intermediaries To facilitate electronic commerce, it is necessary to clarify the responsibility of on-line service providers for transmitting and storing information from third party (i.e. when service providers act as "intermediaries"). To eliminate existing legal uncertainties and to avoid divergent approaches at Member State level, the proposal would establish an exemption from liability for intermediaries where they play a passive role as a "mere conduit" of information from third parties and limit service providers' liability for other "intermediary" activities such as the storage of information. The proposal strikes a careful balance between the different interests involved in order to stimulate co-operation between different parties and so reduce the risk of illegal activity on-line. Commercial communications Commercial communications such as advertising and direct marketing, which are an essential part of most electronic commerce services, would be subject to clearly defined rules under the proposed Directive. The proposal defines what constitutes a commercial communication and makes it subject to certain transparency requirements to ensure consumer confidence and fair trading. In order to allow consumers to react more readily to harmful intrusion, the proposal requires that commercial communications by e-mail are clearly identifiable. In addition, for regulated professions (such as lawyers or accountants), the proposal lays down the general principle that the on-line provision of services is permitted and that national rules on advertising shall not prevent professions from operating Web-sites. However, these would have to respect certain rules of professional ethics which should be reflected in codes of conduct to be drawn up by professional associations. Implementation Rather than inventing new rules, the proposal would seek to ensure that existing EU and national legislation were effectively enforced. The development of a genuine Single Market based on mutual confidence between Member States - is stimulated by strengthening enforcement mechanisms. The proposal would seek to do so by encouraging the development of codes of conduct at EU level, by stimulating administrative co-operation between Member States and by facilitating the setting up of effective, alternative cross-border dispute settlement systems. The proposal would also require Member States to provide for fast, efficient legal redress appropriate to the on-line environment and to ensure that sanctions for violations of the rules established under the Directive were effective, proportionate and dissuasive. Mutual recognition/derogations The proposed Directive would clarify that the Single Market principle of mutual recognition of national laws and the principle of control in the country of origin must be applied to information society services so that such services provided from another Member State are not restricted for reasons falling within the scope of the proposal which would not cover taxation, personal data (the free movement of which is covered by Directive 95/46 see IP/98/925), the activities of notaries, representation and defence of clients before a court, gambling activities. Furthermore, the proposed Directive would not interfere with the application of the Brussels Convention on jurisdiction, recognition and enforcement of judgements in civil and commercial matters and the Rome Convention on the law applicable to contractual obligations. The proposed Directive would also allow Member States on a case by case basis to impose restrictions on information society services supplied from another Member State if necessary to protect the public interest on grounds of protection of minors, the fight against hatred on grounds of race, sex, religion or nationality, public health or security and consumer protection. However, such restrictions would have to be proportionate to their stated objective. Moreover, such restrictions could only be imposed (except in cases of urgency) after: * the Member State where the service provider was established had been asked to take adequate measures and failed to do so and * the intention to impose restrictions had been notified in advance to the Commission and to the Member State where the service provider was established. In cases of urgency, the reasons for the restrictions (and the urgency) would have to be notified in the shortest possible time to the Commission and to the Member State of the service provider. Where the Commission considered proposed or actual restrictions were not justified, Member States would be required to refrain from imposing them or urgently put an end to them. The proposal for a Directive on a legal framework for electronic commerce will be forwarded to the European Parliament and the EU's Council of Ministers for adoption under the co-decision procedure. ========================================== From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Fri Nov 27 20:09:52 1998 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:09:52 +0800 Subject: open-pgp / s/mime interoperability Message-ID: <91222019014234@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> >: there is no reason why you can't have PGP >: messages backed by X.509 certificates, and it is trivial to use S/MIME >: with OpenPGP certificates. I'm planning on writing a short >: informational RFC on how to do it once we all get RFC numbers for our >: respective systems. >open-pgp public keys aren't based on X.509 keys, so I would've thought >s/mime implementation would barf on them. Actually S/MIME *could* support the use of PGP keys, but there's a field (the SubjectKeyIdentifier) missing from the CMS SignerInfo which prevents this. This is rather inconsistent, because the same field is present in the RecipientInfo. I'm currently arguing in favour of adding it to SignerInfo on the basis that any argument against it would also apply to RecipientInfo. Not sure whether it'll work though - a couple of list members seem convinced that exactly the same thing which is currently in RecipientInfo won't work if used in SignerInfo. Peter. From declan at well.com Fri Nov 27 20:09:53 1998 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:09:53 +0800 Subject: Fwd: FC: EU eavesdropping on Iridium satellite phone system Message-ID: <199811280332.TAA02042@smtp.well.com> any reactions? some of my newspaper colleagues are thinking of writing about this... >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:12:45 -0800 (PST) >From: Declan McCullagh >To: politech at vorlon.mit.edu >Subject: FC: EU eavesdropping on Iridium satellite phone system >X-No-Archive: Yes >Sender: owner-politech at vorlon.mit.edu >Reply-To: declan at well.com >X-Loop: politech at vorlon.mit.edu >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:08:00 +0100 >From: Erich Moechel >To: Declan McCullagh , declan at well.com >Subject: EU eavesdropping on Iridium System > > >It is really a ghastly paper, we obtained. It is the first ever "Enfopol" >paper that leaked out from United European Police Working Group. >Not even the EU's STOA-commission that brought Echelon in2 EU- >Parliament this spring was given the predecessor 2 "Enfopol 98" >cu >me > >The European Surveillance Union > >Erich Moechel 20.11.98 > >Europol Seeks a Broad Structure for Tapping Mobile >Communications > >Austrian officials' appetite for coldly broadening their authority to >monitor private citizens is in no way a unique case in Europe. > >As a Europol internal document obtained by Telepolis shows, >massive attempts on the part of European police forces are >underway to acquire the ability to eavesdrop on the Iridium system, >currently in a sensitive stage of expansion. > >The document entitled "Enfopol 98" from the group "Police >Cooperation" dated September 3, 1998, deals with the "observation >of telecommunications" and primarily addresses the so-called >satellite-supported personal communication systems (S-PCS), but >also the Internet. On the recommendation of the European Union, a >list of points desired by the European police was drawn up as a >"Draft for a Recommended Resolution" in order to simplify the >passage of the resolution. The terrestrial gateway stations are to >provide comprehensive access via Iridium and other Mobile Satellite >Services (MSS) since they are "collective and simple locations for >monitoring solutions." > >http://www.telepolis.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/1667/1.html >-.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- > q/depesche taeglich ueber >internationale hacks--.-zensur im netz >crypto--.-IT mergers--.-monopole >& die universalitaet digitaler dummheit >subscribe http://www.quintessenz.at >-.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- >Certified PGP key http://keyserver.ad.or.at >-.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- >erich-moechel.com/munications >++43 2266 687201 fon ++43 2266 687204 fax >-.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- -.-.- --.- > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology >To subscribe: send a message to majordomo at vorlon.mit.edu with this text: >subscribe politech >More information is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 28 02:14:56 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:14:56 +0800 Subject: Remailer test, ignore Message-ID: <199811280951.KAA20086@replay.com> This string is to be used for tracing this message. 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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 28 08:24:27 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:24:27 +0800 Subject: European Commission proposal on legal framework for e-commerce (fwd) Message-ID: <199811281558.JAA04252@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:45:00 -0500 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: European Commission proposal on legal framework for e-commerce > A proposal for a Directive to establish a coherent legal framework for the > development of electronic commerce within the Single Market has been put > forward by the European Commission. That's pretty gutsy, put your goal in plain english in the first sentence. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 28 08:25:04 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:25:04 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) Message-ID: <199811281551.JAA04132@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:06:30 -0500 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: Re: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory > (RAM) under Windows") (fwd) > >1. Is it OpenSource? > Is this a religious argument? I think he said it was copyrighted freeware, > so use it and leave the copyright notices in and you're ok. Where does he say that Bill? And while it ain't religious, there are some perferences to having it open source versus controlled source. > >2. I assume since it never swaps to disk the memory requirements for the > > computer are large. What is the minimum suggested if one runs say > > 5 apps that each require 16M each, 5*16M & OS overhead? > > Bad Assumption. The memory requirements are whatever you want; Wrong, since the ENTIRE OS is run under this it's not nearly that simple. The OS's internal swap page as well as by extension the contexts they point to are going to be sitting in there. The app should also encrypt the address spaces of the system structures. > if you're storing a few private keys, or intermediate calculation results, > the requirements are very small; if you're storing 16MB databases, > they're much larger. For today, 16MB seems large enough that > I'd think you'd use a crypto-disk or instead of nailing it into RAM, > but the boundaries between huge, routine, and small keep moving > in this business, so maybe you do now, and you will soon enough. Where in that description does it say it allows particular apps to use this product? > Does anybody know if Win95/98 keeps RAMdisks in RAM, or swaps them > out to real disk along with other least-recently-used data? You don't know this but you're willing to try to rake me.... Talk about unprepared. > > And what is the suggested OS overhead with no swap to disk? > > (OK, that last one might be a 3rd question) > > That's a good question. My guess is that it's probably 0-2KB, > plus however big the drivers are, might be as big as 64KB, > but presumably isn't 1MB. In other words, too small to worry about > on recent machines, where an extra 16MB RAM costs $10, > but if you're using that spare 4MB 386 as a remailer, > you've got to be more careful. Your guess is pretty much worthless. What we'd like is an aswer from the person who wrote it. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 28 08:26:41 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:26:41 +0800 Subject: Article V - an analysis (fwd) Message-ID: <199811281557.JAA04199@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:00:07 -0500 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: Re: Article V - an analysis (fwd) > The most recent amendment (27th?) sat around for nearly 200 years > before 3/4 of the states ratified it, (preventing Congress from > raising their salaries during their current term.) > The power to specify a time limit doesn't need separate mention; > the time limit is either part of the proposed amendment, or it isn't, > and it's part of the negotiations for getting Congress to pass it. Really? Where do you see that in the Constitution? > The more dangerous problem is that people keep suggesting a > Constitutional Convention, which has basically no limits on its scope And where do you see unlimited power assigned at under Article V? > (especially given the one previous precedent, which substantially > increased Federal power beyond the limits of the Articles, > and didn't require unanimous consent to adopt its product, > though the Articles required it for changing them.) That isn't a precedence. > Even if the states _say_ they're limiting their delegation to > specific tasks, that doesn't mean the ConCon won't exceed them, > and if it gets sufficient media/public support, it can get away with it. Sure it does, then the states remove their support and it isn't a convention anymore. ARTICLE V. [Constitution: how amended; proviso.] The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions of the three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which shall be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of it's equal Suffrage in the Senate. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 28 08:57:58 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:57:58 +0800 Subject: native onani Message-ID: <199811281632.RAA12035@replay.com> At 07:24 AM 11/27/98 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote: > Obviously >neither homosexual nor homophobic, both groups >prefer the chaste option of onani (onanism) to the perceived compromises of >marital consummation. Worse than that, they use a geijing word for masturbation... --If the spice girls mud-wrestled shonen knife, who would win? From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 28 09:12:07 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 01:12:07 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) Message-ID: <199811281641.RAA12739@replay.com> Jim Choate misses the point, as usual: > Wrong, since the ENTIRE OS is run under this it's not nearly that simple. > The OS's internal swap page as well as by extension the contexts they point > to are going to be sitting in there. The app should also encrypt the address > spaces of the system structures. The original message said: > From: "Jim Adler" > The SCNSM driver supports allocation of non-swappable memory on Windows > 3.x/95/98. The principal design goal of SCNSM is to provide memory that will > not be swapped to disk, under any circumstances. Typically, security > applications require such memory to store private keys, passwords, and > sensitive intermediate results of cryptographic calculations. What is Choate thinking when he says the ENTIRE OS is run under this? This is a driver which is used by the application to allocate specific memory buffers in non-swappable memory. It allows the app to lock down those buffers so that they won't swap to disk. These buffers can then be used to hold sensitive data. It is neither possible nor desirable to run the ENTIRE OS out of such buffers. It is not possible because the OS is already written. It is Windows 3.x/95/98 (see above). That OS does not make the special driver calls which would be necessary to allocate non-swappable memory. You would have to rewrite Windows to use the special calls, which isn't possible for a luser like Choate. And it's not even desirable. There is no reason to make the ENTIRE OS use non-swappable memory. Most memory is simply not that sensitive. It holds public data, or data which is already on the disk in some form. Putting the ENTIRE OS into non-swappable memory gives up much of the advantage of having virtual memory in the first place. It would be a giant step backwards in OS architecture. Here's what Choate had to say when Bill Stewart tried to politely help him out: > You don't know this but you're willing to try to rake me.... > Talk about unprepared. > Your guess is pretty much worthless. It's bad enough to have to endure more of Choate's idiocy, but it is especially offensive to see him hassling Bill Stewart, one of the most consistently informative and valuable list members. Bill's a thick- skinned guy and it's probably no big deal to him, but it further illustrates what a negative contribution Choate makes here. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 28 10:07:18 1998 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:07:18 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) Message-ID: <199811281744.LAA04641@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:41:53 +0100 > From: Anonymous > Subject: Re: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) > What is Choate thinking when he says the ENTIRE OS is run under this? My mistake. Since it really does only handle individual apps it's of limited utility in the Windows world because of the numerous ways to get system level access. > This is a driver which is used by the application to allocate specific > memory buffers in non-swappable memory. It allows the app to lock down > those buffers so that they won't swap to disk. These buffers can then > be used to hold sensitive data. Considering that this doesn't prohibit apps from getting access to that memory, it only prohibits that memory page from being written to disk, it has limited utility. It's only real protection is against disk scans. For example a bogus service could gain system level and initiate a DMA transfer of that non-swappable ram into their own address space. > It is neither possible nor desirable to run the ENTIRE OS out of > such buffers. Sure it is. It's the entire reason to have big online memory pools. Idealy you'd have a computer with nothing but gig's and gig's of ram and no hard drive at all. > It is not possible because the OS is already written. > It is Windows 3.x/95/98 (see above). That OS does not make the special > driver calls which would be necessary to allocate non-swappable memory. > You would have to rewrite Windows to use the special calls, which isn't > possible for a luser like Choate. No, simply provide it enough ram it never has to swap out to disk except in the case of updates to files. If ram's that cheap we could do away with the drive completely. > And it's not even desirable. There is no reason to make the ENTIRE OS > use non-swappable memory. They why do I (and you unless youre using a tty) keep adding ram to my Win/Linux/Solaris/AIX/HP/etc. boxes to reduce the swapping that is taking place? It's slow, we put up with it because we can't afford those hundreds of meg's of ram to hold our app and the entire database file (for example). > Most memory is simply not that sensitive. > It holds public data, or data which is already on the disk in some form. > Putting the ENTIRE OS into non-swappable memory gives up much of the > advantage of having virtual memory in the first place. It would be a > giant step backwards in OS architecture. No, it wouldn't. The question of swap or virtual space is one of economics and not computer architecture. If it were economicaly feasible there would be no drives just fast main ram. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From za at fz.ml.org Sun Nov 29 02:43:28 1998 From: za at fz.ml.org (za at fz.ml.org) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:43:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cheap Travel Service Message-ID: <199811291036.AA20605@scooby.stat.uconn.edu> This message complies with the PROPOSED United States Federal requirements for commercial email bill, Section 301. For additional info see: www.senate.gov~murkowski/commercialemail/EMailAmendText.html Required Sender Information:SDCT,6006 Greenbelt Ed, Suite 340, Greenbelt, MD Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by clicking To be taken off our list please hit reply and put delete as the subject. Taking a $3.5 Trillion Industry by Storm >>>The Demand is Outrageous >>>The Profits are Spectular >>>The Clients are happy. >>>Let me show you how to Make $2-3,000 Per week to Start. This is not MLM >>3 Min. Overview 888 220 6954 >>3 Min. Marketing Plan 888 540 0942 >>Testimonial Line 716 720 6951 >>Fax-on-Demand 716 720-2776, Doc. 1 For sign-up information, Send email to: >>mailto:merchantman-info at autoresponder.freeyellow.com From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 28 10:50:43 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:50:43 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) Message-ID: <199811281827.MAA04760@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > From: Jim Choate > Subject: Re: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:44:04 -0600 (CST) > > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:41:53 +0100 > > From: Anonymous > > Subject: Re: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) > > > What is Choate thinking when he says the ENTIRE OS is run under this? > > My mistake. Since it really does only handle individual apps it's of limited > utility in the Windows world because of the numerous ways to get system > level access. I forgot to add that I'd still be interested in knowing if the utility would support the entire OS being run under this and what the memory constraints would be. If I had 2 of the Samsung 4G memory modules w/ battery back-up I could run an entire machine without a hard-drive. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Sat Nov 28 12:12:44 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 04:12:44 +0800 Subject: Pi(x) - How many primes below x? Message-ID: <199811281943.UAA27500@replay.com> Here are a couple of overdue Choate blooper corrections. Regarding the Prime Number Theorem, Choate originally wrote: > I had typed x/ln(x) as the asymptotic limit for the number of primes less > than x. > > This is incorrect. It should be, > > x/log(x) It should be noted that ln(x) is the logarithm to the base e of x. log(x) is somewhat ambiguous as to the base, but when it is contrasted with ln(x) as Choate does here, it implies that the base is 10. In fact the correct formula uses the base e, and x/ln(x) is not "incorrect" as Choate is claiming. When Choate's error was pointed out, he responded by quoting http://www.utm.edu/research/primes/howmany.shtml, which says that the formula is x/log x. What Choate failed to notice is that the web page clearly states that its logs are to the base e. In other words, the "log x" on that page is equivalent to the "ln(x)" which Choate originally wrote. Choate's original formula was the right one, and in writing that his formula was incorrect, he only displays his own confusion. With regard to his ludicrous model of a spark gap inside a conductive sphere, Choate originally wrote: > The spark gap generates sparks and that builds up free electrons in the > space inside the sphere (whether it is gas filled or a vacuum is > irrelevant). As that charge builds up it will be all of one type, electrons. > Now the electrons repel each other and therefor move in a circular motion > with the spark gap as the center. They strike the surface of the sphere and > tunnel through to the outside surface where they reside. The amount of > charge at any one point is related to the curvature of the surface at that > point. Since a sphere is constant curvature the charge will be evenly > distributed. It will continue to build up so long as you supply power to the > spark gap. In an ideal world it will get bigger and bigger. In the real > world at some point insulation breaks down and normal current flow takes > place. He believes that the spark gap emits electrons, which strike the inside surface of the sphere and "tunnel through" to the outside. He says that the charge will continue to build up so long as you supply power to the spark gap. Here is another message in which he made the same point: > This is in addition to the charge that steadily builds up in the shell as > the electrons accrete over time. This can be modelled with an integral of > the flow rate of the current in the battery (it after all is Coulombs/s). > It's not too hard (k * I). (I'm not going to go into what happens as the > charge on the shell builds up as we're discussing here the applicability of > wave equations as a reliable model). > > So what do you get? A hell of a charge that will go bang at some point when > some insulation give way. When it was pointed out how ignorant this idea was, and how it violates Gauss's Law, Choate tried to backpedal by proposing that the battery itself was charged in the first place. He even drew a picture: > 2N e- 1N p+ > > | | > | | > |-------------| |--------------| > | | | | > | | | | > | | > | | > |------0 0------------------0 0--| > \ > \ > spark gap switch It should be obvious that this device fails to generate the phenomena which he describes above. In the first place, since it has a net negative charge, the charge will appear on the outside of the sphere BEFORE THE SWITCH IS THROWN. There is no spark active, no electrons being emitted, yet a negative charge appears on the outside of the conductive sphere. This is an elementary application of Gauss's Law. Then, when the switch is thrown, there will be a spark, and some of the charges will neutralize each other, but of course the net charge will stay the same, by conservation of charge. The phenomenon Choate described of electrons being emitted by the spark gap, moving outward and striking the sphere, and then tunnelling through to make charge appear on the outside, will occur only in Choate's deluded imagination. Furthermore, there will be no "build up" of charge. The charge will be there from the moment the device is put into the sphere, long before the switch is thrown. Throwing the switch will have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the outside of the sphere. Michael Motyka spent several days trying to patiently explain all this to Choate, to no avail. He finally gave up in frustration. Choate is almost completely immune to enlightenment. He has certainly proved that patience and politeness make no dent in his thick skull. We shall see whether blunt frankness is any more effective. From howree at cable.navy.mil Sat Nov 28 14:40:52 1998 From: howree at cable.navy.mil (Reeza!) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:40:52 +0800 Subject: native onani In-Reply-To: <199811281632.RAA12035@replay.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981129071146.00881b40@205.83.192.13> At 05:32 PM 11/28/98 +0100, Anonymous wrote: > >At 07:24 AM 11/27/98 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote: >> Obviously >>neither homosexual nor homophobic, both groups >>prefer the chaste option of onani (onanism) to the perceived compromises of >>marital consummation. > > >Worse than that, they use a geijing word for masturbation... > > >--If the spice girls mud-wrestled shonen knife, who would win? > Vince McMahon. Reeza! If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing you good, you should run for your life. -stolen from a cypherpunk sig From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 28 15:34:12 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:34:12 +0800 Subject: govt/business incest Message-ID: <199811282300.PAA20157@netcom13.netcom.com> on the incestuous relationship between govt and business... heh doesn't mention the DEFENSE industry, #@&%^* also for anyone interested, noam chomsky has many good books out on these subjects ------- Forwarded Messagone Subject: [exploration] Corporate Welfare: A Media Issue At Last? (fwd) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:24:26 -1000 From: Jonathan David Boyne To: Undisclosed recipients:; By Norman Solomon / Creators Syndicate For many years, across the United States, huge quantities of >tax breaks and subsidies have been going to corporations. >Occasionally, the media spotlight falls on an example of how >government policies stand Robin Hood on his head -- shaking down >the poor and middle class while handing over the proceeds to >wealthy individuals and big businesses. > > Sometimes called "corporate welfare," this pattern of >legalized rip-offs has been widespread -- yet little of the story >seems to emerge in major news outlets. Overall, the coverage is >sporadic at best. In mass media, the broader picture has been >missing -- until the last few weeks. > > November brought a series of breakthroughs, thanks to two >gifted reporters and a news weekly that allowed them to engage in >rigorous journalism. All month, beginning with a cover story on >"What Corporate Welfare Costs You," Time magazine featured >extraordinary exposes by Donald Barlett and James Steele. > > Corporate welfare, they write, is "a game in which >governments large and small subsidize corporations large and >small, usually at the expense of another state or town and almost >always at the expense of individuals and other corporate >taxpayers." > > Barlett and Steele report that "the federal government alone >shells out $125 billion a year in corporate welfare." Meanwhile, >"a different kind of feeding frenzy is taking place" at the state >and local level -- where "politicians stumble over one another in >the rush to arrange special deals for select corporations." > > In theory, the giveaways create jobs. In practice, the >theory is hogwash: "Time's investigation has established that >almost without exception, local and state politicians have doled >out tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to businesses that are >in fact eliminating rather than creating jobs." > > Often, when localities roll out the gold carpet for firms, >government coffers shrink -- and services for the public >diminish. As Barlett and Steele document in excruciating detail, >one of the common results is health-threatening pollution that >goes unchallenged. The most vulnerable neighborhoods tend to be >where low-income people live. > > The big hogs at the tax-funded trough include popular brands >-- Intel and Dow, General Motors and Mercedes-Benz, Exxon and >Shell, UPS and Procter & Gamble, to name just a few. Some are the >parent companies of media empires, such as Walt Disney (ABC), >General Electric (NBC) and -- as the Time series acknowledges -- >Time Warner. > > "The king of corporate welfare may be Archer Daniels >Midland," according to Time. "The global agricultural-commodities >dealer has artfully preserved one of the more blatant welfare >programs -- a subsidy for ethanol that has already cost taxpayers >more than $5 billion in the 1990s. Some $3 billion of that has >gone to ADM." > > Year after year, Archer Daniels Midland has poured several >million dollars into the nightly PBS "NewsHour" television show >hosted by Jim Lehrer. ADM is also an underwriter of National >Public Radio news. And the savvy firm buys a lot of image ads on >commercial TV network programs that discuss political issues. Not >surprisingly, ADM hasn't been subjected to much tough reporting >on the national airwaves. > > Corporate welfare is an important issue. But it can easily >be spun in dubious directions. For instance, in an article >addressed "To Our Readers," Time's editor-in-chief Norman >Pearlstine throws a wide curve that breaks sharply downward and >to the right. > > "Ending corporate welfare as we know it is essential," >Pearlstine contends. But then comes the english: "Rather than >give corporations uneven and unfair exemptions, it may make more >sense to simply do away with both corporate welfare and corporate >taxation." > > Now there's an idea that Time Warner can get behind: Stop >taxing corporations! > > Another hazard is the temptation to put all forms of >government assistance in the same "welfare" category. It would be >a big mistake to equate government aid to dependent corporations >with safety-net subsidies for children, seniors and others >struggling at the bottom rungs of the economic ladder. > > Government should not be using tax dollars to help the rich >get richer. But government has no business refusing to help >Americans get the nutrition, health care, housing and other >basics that are everyone's human right. > > Welcome as it is, the occasional blockbuster expose of >corporate abuses -- even in a media outlet as influential as Time >magazine -- won't accomplish very much. Without an "echo effect," >these issues are likely to remain muted. > > The need to speak up and take action is a burden that falls >on people in every community. Large corporations have been >ripping us off for decades. Our initial efforts to force >restitution will not be televised. > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER >========== >CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic >screeds are not allowed. Substance�not soapboxing! These are sordid matters >and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright >frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects >spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL >gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; >be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and >nazi's need not apply. > >Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > >======================================================================== >To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: >SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] LISTSERV at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: >SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] LISTSERV at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >Om > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't lose your email when you move, change jobs, or switch ISP's. Click here to get free and permanent email from NET at DDRESS! http://ads.egroups.com/click/153/0 Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com From fod at brd.ie Sat Nov 28 15:51:16 1998 From: fod at brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:51:16 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811281827.MAA04760@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <366086B6.2E880D74@brd.ie> Jim Choate wrote: > If I had 2 of the Samsung 4G memory modules w/ battery back-up I could run > an entire machine without a hard-drive. If you had no hard drive why the hell would you worry about disk swapping? Cheers, Frank O'Dwyer. From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 28 16:35:54 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:35:54 +0800 Subject: german hacker death suspicious Message-ID: <199811282258.OAA19939@netcom13.netcom.com> there used to be a lot of conspiracy literature circulating on the itnernet on the huge industry/black market of satellite decoding software, TV decoding software, and encryption systems.. I personally never figured this out but if someone could point out that material, I'd love to go back and look at it here's a pretty heavy article TCM will love ------- Forwarded Message Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:12:03 -0700 Subject: Murder or suicide? Hacker's death in October still a mystery Murder or suicide? Hacker's death in October still a mystery Copyright � 1998 Nando Media Copyright � 1998 The Associated Press http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/112798/world37_28777_noframes.html BERLIN (November 27, 1998 3:15 p.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) -- He was a gifted computer whiz -- one of the best, one who'd made the jump from illegal tinkering to the legitimate, potentially lucrative business of making codes crack-proof from hackers like himself. But when Boris Floriciz was found hanging from a tree in a Berlin park on Oct. 22, his belt around his neck and his feet dragging the ground, it drew attention even outside the tight-knit world of hackers. His friends wonder whether he was caught up in the murkier side of the trade -- one of spies, espionage and black-market criminals. Was it suicide, as police suspect? Or homicide? At 26, Floriciz seemed headed for a great future. He'd just finished his computer science degree. International firms sought him as a consultant. He was happy, say his friends, who cannot believe he would take his own life. Floriciz's friends wonder if he had become a threat to someone on the wrong side of the business, leading to his death. "That was not a personal decision," Andy Mueller-Maguhn, a friend and fellow member of the Chaos Computer Club said. "For sure not. That was murder." >From childhood, Floriciz looked destined to be an engineer. He was always taking things apart to see how they worked. "Radios, television, clocks, the lawnmower - - -- nothing was safe from him," his father told Stern magazine. He dissembled a telephone booth to get at computer data inside. He was the first hacker to crack the microchips on Deutsche Telekom telephone cards, used at pay phones in Germany. His homemade card reloaded as the credit ran out. After getting caught in 1995 and sentenced to probation, Floriciz "felt the need to draw the line," said Mueller-Maguhn. He joined Chaos, a 10-year-old group of computer devotees, and he went back to college, earning his diploma in September by developing a scrambler to encode telephone calls on high-speed, digital lines. German media reports say Floriciz also was working on cracking decoders for pay television -- a booming business spreading across Europe. One of the key players is Robert Murdoch, whose digital broadcasting research firm NDS Ltd. contacted Floriciz two years ago about being a code-design consultant. "He was an exceptionally talented engineer," said Margot Field, spokeswoman at the firm's London headquarters. NDS wanted to hire him, but couldn't move forward because Floriciz hadn't yet graduated or completed his compulsory military service. The firm's last contact with him was in June. NDS apparently wasn't the only one interested in Floriciz. His father says Floriciz talked several times about being approached by people he suspected worked for spy agencies, which are believed to have mined the hacker world for talent in the past. Just a few months ago, Germany's spy agency tried to hire a hacker to get secrets out of Iran's military computers, the Chaos club said. But the contact vanished when the hacker got Chaos involved. Floriciz may also have attracted black marketeers of counterfeit chips for telephone cards and mobile phones. Deutsche Telekom estimates it loses millions of dollars each year from counterfeit cards. And industry officials worry that TV decoder chips offer gangsters even bigger profits on the black market. Money wasn't a lure for Floriciz, his friends say. He preferred to post his research on the Internet for all to see -- and use. "It was all the same to him if others raked in the bucks from what he developed," one friend, Daniel, told Stern. "The main thing for him was that he had proven what he was great at." Mueller-Maguhn says Floriciz's open attitude about his work might have threatened those who didn't want competitors horning in on their business. "He had lots of jobs, but he didn't want to become a slave of one company," he said. "Maybe that was a problem." Floriciz left his mother's apartment on Oct. 17 at about 2 p.m. She didn't think he'd be gone long, because he didn't take his laptop computer. He never came back. Calls to his mobile phone went unanswered. A passerby found his body five days later. His phone, keys, ID card and money were with him, evidence police say points to suicide. No sign of a struggle. Nothing stolen. No drugs. Detectives are waiting for test results -- fingerprint fragments or chemical traces -- before making a final determination. The Chaos Computer Club is putting together its own report, which it plans to release at its annual convention Dec. 27-29 in Berlin. Already, the death notice on the club's Web site states what Floriciz's friends believe happened: "The circumstances under which he disappeared and his extraordinary capabilities lead us to the conclusion that he became a homicide victim." By PAUL GEITNER, Associated Press Writer  From vznuri at netcom.com Sat Nov 28 19:28:51 1998 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:28:51 +0800 Subject: y2k/gary north delusions Message-ID: <199811290304.TAA06582@netcom13.netcom.com> I've been reading gary north for quite awhile and think he is quite brilliant on some issues. for example he was quoting statistics about amt of time it takes to fix code, cost per line, govt agencies etc. a long, long time ago. he really zeroed in on the govt bureacrat "ostrichism" early on.. anyway I hate to say that I think he is really losing his mind lately.. no there are going to be some serious y2k problems, but imho the bottom approaches "garbage".. any talk of riots, mobs, martial law, stockpiling weaponry, roving bandits etc. seems to me to be really way off base to say the least. now people have been talking about this, but I've never seen gary north go quite that crazy. all the quoting of obscure, fictitious b-grade movies in this article makes me think he is really living in a fantasy world. now this is a shame because some of his research is some of the most solid and ahead-of-time than anyone on the entire net, by far. his site is a work of art in tedious archival, compilation, indexing. gary, take it easy. take a vacation. take a deep breath. well posted for your own opinion ------- Forwarded Message Gary North's REALITY CHECK Issue #33 November 17, 1998 CLOCKS TICK, BUT MOST PEOPLE IGNORE THE SOUND Tonight we will go through the Leonid meteor shower. Scientists tell us that this one will not match the 1966 shower, nor will it match the one a year and a day from now. But we will probably lose a few major satellites. Any company that has insured satellites has just entered a higher-risk period. Astronomy is a precise science. It can predict events such as this one with remarkable accuracy. The astronomers do not know how intense this shower will be, but they know for certain that tonight will be the highest density night. Some think it will be a bump in the highway, but others think it could be worse for our satellites. This reminds me of y2k forecasts. I shall go out tonight to see the shooting stars. I was on top of a hill in a desert area in 1966, lying on the trunk of a car, looking up. I did not know about the Leonids. I just happened to be in the right place to see them. The shooting stars came every few minutes. Never in history had there been so many -- and records of the Leonids go back to the tenth century. I'll never forget it. I'll never forget y2k, either. IGNORING THE OBVIOUS There are millions of people who know that y2k is coming. They will put this out of their minds until the last minute. They will pay no attention until events force themselves on men's perception. Then they will say, "Why didn't anyone tell me?" There are several answers: (1) the watchmen did not believe the evidence; (2) risks to the reputations of watchmen are high and rewards are few; (3) almost no one would have listened anyway. Let me give another example. I have mentioned in "Remnant Review," but not on my Web site, since it is not a y2k issue. But it is surely an ignored deadline issue. Brady II goes into effect in just a few days: December 1. >From that day forward, U.S. residents will not be able to buy a shotgun or a rifle without registering and paying a fee. Their names will be placed in an FBI computer, even though this is illegal and the authorities know it's illegal. Where is the ACLU? If this law applied only to Blacks, the ACLU would be fighting it. But since it applies to everyone, we hear nothing. There is a scene in "The Trigger Effect" where the two male characters go into a gun store a few days after the power has been off. So do a lot of others. They are told that they cannot buy handguns. There is a waiting period. But they can buy rifles and shotguns. They buy a shotgun with what little cash they can scrape together. As of December 1, this scene will be inaccurate. There will be an extra fee and the loss of privacy. The next step: a prohibition on private gun sales. To sell your gun to your next door neighbor, you will have to take your gun to a gun dealer, who will register the transaction and impose the 5-day waiting period. The President has said that it is his goal to shut down gun shows. I think he will be successful. Now, I'm not too worried about being in any computer. They will all be dead on 1/1/2000. But what is obvious is that those who dilly-dally now will find themselves competing with people who have cash in 2000. The collapse of the banks over the next 16 months will transfer wealth to the drug dealers on a massive scale. They will have cash, and they will be dealing in consumer goods that will function as money. Drugs are divisible, recognizable to users, have a very high value-to-volume ratio, and are durable. There is no doubt in my mind that in those geographical areas where addiction is high, the drug lords will take over the functions of government. They will be armed. They will have money. They are ruthless. And the police will be absent. The inner cities of the United States will become warlord societies within two years. Do not live anywhere near one of these areas. The criminals and addicts will fan out to extract wealth from contiguous areas. The police will be hard-pressed to respond. It will take time for martial law to be imposed, and in most places, there will not be any military presence. Neighborhood defense will be based increasingly on what local residents can muster. If the locals are disarmed, then they will be sitting ducks. Neighborhoods will set up roadblocks with cars. The two-car family will become a one-car family. The number- one defensive measure a neighborhood can take is a roadblock. Criminals will have to get into a neighborhood on foot. They will have to get out the same way. Easy transportation will disappear in 2000. Urban life will move to a crawl. On that day, you had better have your water, your food, your non-hybrid seeds, and your ammunition. Nobody else talks like this. The watchmen are in the "peace, peace" mode. That's easy talk in the days before the shooting starts. The function of the watchman in the Old Testament was military. He warned of an invading army. That's what I'm doing. The army has already invaded the central cities. It is well armed, well organized, and ruthless. It will move outward in 2000. Rent "The Friendly Persuasion." It's a great movie. Pay close attention to the pacifism of the Quaker men in the weeks before the Confederates invaded and the militarism on the day before. Talk of peace is cheap before the shooting starts. What I am saying is obvious, but it is not politically correct. Today's watchmen are afraid of politically liberal media reporters who might say, "These people recommend buying guns! Oh, woe! Oh, horrors!" I pay no attention. When I think of any reporter, I think: "Dead man typing." He will have no job, no career, no pension, and no readers in 15 months. He will be at the mercy of those around him. The mentality of the typical reporter is that of the wife on "the Trigger Effect." A liberal to the core, she wanted no part of a shotgun. The movie centers around her ideology and the costs that it imposed. It was not a good movie, but it surely did portray her in a bad light, which was well deserved. The clock is ticking. Brady II is coming. And millions of people will walk into a Wal-Mart SuperCenter next month and through all of next year and wonder: "Why didn't someone tell me I would have to register this transaction?" (See the three reasons, above.) ACROSS THE BOARD The shock of recognition that rifle-buyers will have in the next few months will be paralleled in 1999 on an international scale. "What do you mean, I can't get cash out of this bank?" "What do you mean, you're out of solar panels?" (http://www.solarextreme.com) "What do you mean, I can't buy an inverter?" "What do you mean, I can't get delivery of a diesel generator?" "What do you mean, you don't have any deep cycle golf cart batteries?" "What do you mean I can't get delivery of a wood burning stove?" In 2000, it will be food, water, and electricity. But there will be no seller to complain to. To complain, you have to be able to speak to someone. You won't be able to. Let's start with the basics: water. An urban adult uses 75 to 100 gallons of water a day. This doesn't count watering the lawn. In 2000, how many people will be under your roof? Remember, your children may show up on your doorstep, with wives and children. Families will pull together for survival in 2000. Estimate the number of people under your roof in 2000. Now, how much water will you need per day? What if the municipal water authority shuts down? It's goodbye showers. Goodbye flushing toilets. Hello sponge baths and thunder mugs. I don't think the reality of the power cut-off will hit most families until someone says, "Mom, the toilet won't flush." Then the realization will dawn at last. A new, unpleasant world has arrived. Disease will begin to spread by the end of the week. Every time you take a shower, think of 2000. Every time you flush a toilet, think of 2000. Ask yourself: How will I do this in 2000? People will not do this. No, not even those who have read my warnings for two years. They will not go through the mental exercise of planning ahead for the basics -- and water is near the top of any list of basics, right below heat in the winter. There are millions of people who live in high-rise apartments today. There will be fewer in February, 2000. Let's assume that for the first three months in 2000, you will not get paid. The banks will be down. You will not be able to write a check or use a credit card. What will you do? What will your neighbors do? What if it's a year? If it's a year, it could be a decade. What will you do? What is your exit strategy? Have you and your spouse sat down with pencil and paper and written down your family's exit strategy? No? Why not? It's not that I haven't nagged you. What of your adult children? Which ones will be able to make it through three months of no paychecks? Of those that can't, how many will wind up on your doorstep in late 1999? Or will you wind up on theirs? Should you head for the hills? Wrong question. What solid evidence do you have that you shouldn't? Should you stay where you are? What items will you need in your possession in 2000 and 2001 to make your decision to stay put a wise one for you and all of your closest relatives, who will show up on your doorstep if they know that you have prepared? That is to say, have you prepared for every close family member who will be in trouble in 2000? No? Why not? The clock is ticking. Let me give a simple example. How will you wash clothes for everyone? Let's assume that you have water. (Dreamer!) You can buy a 40-lb. tub of Wind Fresh laundry detergent from Sam's Club for $10. It will do 160 loads. For one person, that's a year of washing. What if you have 10 people under your roof? You will need 10 tubs for just one year. But this product may not be readily available in 2001. You had better buy 20 tubs. I'll bet you don't have 20 tubs, even though you can afford $200. You lack the storage space. More important, 20 tubs of detergent point to all the other things you will need under conditions that would mandate 20 tubs of detergent. So, people refuse to buy enough detergent. Now, what about your neighbors? They will be dirty. Their clothes will be dirty. You will be clean. You will not have lost 30 pounds. You will be the target of envy on a scale you can barely imagine today. You will be despised. Will you be ready for this psychologically? Of course, you can warn your neighbors now. They will not prepare, but they will remember. There will be a stream of beggars at your door from 2000 onward. You may know their names. "Please, please, we're desperate." It won't be a lie. When a society loses the division of labor, it loses just about everything that the urban "good life" requires. If you keep even a fraction of these things -- clean clothes, for instance -- you will be resented. Envy is a powerful force. "He doesn't deserve it. It's not right that he should have so much. No one should have so much." Here is a piece of information you may not have. Sam's Club offers a special service. It has a 50-page notebook with all of its products listed, with order numbers. Go to the manager and ask for a copy. Take it home. Make a shopping list. You can order everything at one time. Rent a U-Haul or borrow a pick-up truck and pick up everything. The average adult consumes 1000 lbs of food for a year. Half should be vegetables. You can grow them. Buy non-hybrid seeds. (http://arkinstitute.com) Half can be grains. You can buy 200 lbs of white rice at Sam's Club for under $60. The same for pinto beans. In terms of food, $300 will feed you for a year. You'll hate the taste by mid-2000, but you'll eat. How many of you will spend a whole $300 on food? Not many. Why not? Because if they might need this much food, they'll need water, and they know they can't get enough water in 2000. They would have to move, or put in four 1,500-gallon cisterns and gutters, or buy a swimming pool. They won't do it. My suggestion: rent "The Trigger Effect." Then make up your mind about where you should live in 2000. For those who want a public presentation, which can be used to persuade people who have not read much about y2k, my Harrison, Arkansas y2k town meeting tape is effective. You can see representatives of the public utilities and a local bank deal with y2k. The question and answer session is especially useful. It sells for $39.95: call 903-839-8822. - - -------------------------------------------- Reality Check - - -------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this list, send a message containing "unsubscribe" to: remnant-list-request at cliffslanding.com If you have questions please contact ice at ballistic.com. - - --------------60B23B773DFEE8A7DA22A23D-- - - --------------12214D0997E9CA46C4BB380C-- - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 28 21:00:56 1998 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:00:56 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) Message-ID: <199811290431.WAA05894@einstein.ssz.com> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:26:46 +0000 > From: "Frank O'Dwyer" > Subject: Re: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) > Jim Choate wrote: > > If I had 2 of the Samsung 4G memory modules w/ battery back-up I could run > > an entire machine without a hard-drive. > > If you had no hard drive why the hell would you worry about disk > swapping? I wouldn't because I'd have enough RAM to cover the requisite resources of my OS and apps. You have the cart before the horse. ____________________________________________________________________ Technology cannot make us other than what we are. James P. Hogan The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at replay.com Sun Nov 29 10:43:15 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 02:43:15 +0800 Subject: "Export" controls Message-ID: <199811291808.TAA01251@replay.com> A few speculations on export controls. As we all know, the concentration of so-called hard crypto is the same inside and outside US borders. Or, for that matter, inside and outside "free world" (heh heh) borders. I would even say that anyone with a computer and net link in the world has about equal access to the crypto software. And no one I know ever bothers do download anything from US-based sites with those somnambulistic export-control buttons - it is so much simpler do download it from somewhere else. If we put aside the theory of deranged government, what logic can explain this situation ? Effective domestic crypto regulation. Export farce is just a neat way of scaring companies and individual contributors from developing and providing cryptographic systems within US. Export regulations are the new high point of double-speak. Anyone providing domestic crypto runs the risk of violating EARs. Manufacturers are ultimately responsible when their products end up overseas, and there is nothing in EARs that absolves them from that responsibility. [ For example, try to buy one of IBM crypto-cards - give them a call and ask what does it take to purchase one with hard crypto on it (semi-hard - they stop at 3DES) ] Regular sales channels are closed for crypto today in US. No one dares sell crypto hardware to anonymous public. No one dares to post crypto software for US customers to download with a single-click. Small developers (like that guy from Sunnyvale) are harassed with subpoenas. The end result is a tremendous slow down of crypto systems distribution in the US. Which was the intent. Now the question: is there a way to build a case which will bring down crypto export controls because they demonstrably prevent DOMESTIC sales and therefore constitute DOMESTIC restrictions. Say, if company starts selling some hard crypto products in a storefront for cash only - how would BIX react ? Would a US citizen have to produce ID in order to buy ? From helper1 at privacy-consultants.com Sun Nov 29 14:24:28 1998 From: helper1 at privacy-consultants.com (helper1 at privacy-consultants.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:24:28 +0800 Subject: Passport Guatemala/Nicaragua now even faster/2-3 weeks! Message-ID: <199811292130.NAA01216@privacy-consultants.com> Hello fellow Privacy Seeker, Sorry, it took a little longer to respond, as I just came back from my trip to Central America. I made the first deliveries, and both programs run very well. As we are getting into the christmas season things are getting somewhat busy. Please read below all additional expalanations and act accordingly. Some general guidelines, organized like a FAQ: 1. What is included? Gua: passport with entry-exit stamp of another Central American country, driver's license and cedula Nica: passport with exit stamp, driver's license and cedula 2. What is extra? Gua: name change 3000, naturalization papers 1500 Nica: name change 2000, naturalization papers 1000 3. Special features: Holders are entitled to naturalization in Spain after only two years' residency. This is valid for both countries. 4. Discounts available? As this is already a real bargain and is addressed to agents only, I will grant a 15% on orders of 2 or more GIVEN AT THE SAME TIME. 5. What is needed? Gua: Possible by mail: YES Validity of pp: VALID FOR LIFE Prolongation: EVERY 5 YEARS (AT ANY Guatemala EMBASSY OR CONSULATE) Docs legalized,notarized & registered: YES - IN ALL THE RIGHT COMPUTERS, REGISTRATION, LEGAL STAMPS, ETC. Dual nationality permitted: YES Residency possible: YES Extradition legally possible:DEPENDS ON YOUR FIRST NATIONALITY. EXTRADITON IS BETWEEN GOVT. TO GOVT. AGREEMENTS New identity/name change possible:YES (additional USD 5,000) Birth Certificate included: NO, AS THIS IS BY NATURALIZATION Double taxation agreements: DEPENDS AGAIN ON GOVT.-TO-GOVT. AGREEMENTS Travel opportunities: EXCELLENT - AS GOOD AS ANY SWISS OR CANADIAN PASSPORT! List of visa requirements: SEE BELOW Fee: US$ 10,000 Time frame: appr. 2-3 weeks after receipt of application & funds Fee for spouse: SAME AS FOR HUSBAND Fee for children under 18: DEPENDS Fee for children over 18: SAME AS FOR ADULT Photo requirements: 6 PHOTOS IN COLOR, showing the ears, no earrings or glasses 4 Photos in color for Cedula and Driver's License If you opt for name change, I do not need a copy of your current passport! Nica: same as above, except the following changes: travel opportunities: more limited, still working on a comprehensive visa list, difficult to get! Best advise is to check with your local airline, and ask them how visa requirements are for Nicaraguaians to travel to your favorite countries Fee: USD 7,500 Photo requirements: same If you opt for name change, I do not need a copy of your current passport! 6. Terms: Payment shall be 50 % deposit and the balance on delivery in 2-3 weeks. This includes delivery by courier worldwide, if personal delivery is requested, the client must bear with the additional costs. If interested, please inquire for the wire instructions, payments by wire transfer only. 7. Misc: THESE ARE NOT CHEAP FAKES!! This deal is possible based on long lasting personal relationships and donations to political groups. There is no intermediary in between, I do it myself!! 8. How to order: Please respond to privacy at privacy-consultants.com, I will give you: - the application form - the wire instruction - the address where to mail the photos Please bear in mind that this offer expires on Dec 31, 98. After that date prices will go up, some 60%!! Don't loose any more time now and reply asking me for the application form. Cordially Dr. Georg Adem ************************************************************************ "One person with a belief is equal to a force of ninety nine who only have interest." "In the land of the blind the one-eyed is king, until the other find out he can see. Then they kill him" Our home page: http://privacy-consultants.com/ or full mirror at: http://nauru-banker-net.com/ email to: assistant at privacy-consultants.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our affiliated site: http://www.1-trust.net/ or: http://onetrust.net/ providing top-notch offshore services, credit cards, etc. email to: quest at 1-trust.net WE SELL PRACTICE, NOT THE THEORY! *************** Providing Privacy Consultancy Since 1978 **************** We strongly encourage encryption!! Here you get our public key: http://privacy-consultants.com/pgpkey_home.html P.S.: Last, but not least: Don't get fooled by cheap imitators, I saw what they deliver, and it is just not worth the paper it was printed on, at some back yard printer shop in Guatemala City! Stay with the person whom you can trust if it comes to passports, I know the ropes of this business better than anybody else! From vinjac at usa.net Mon Nov 30 07:52:01 1998 From: vinjac at usa.net (vinjac at usa.net) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 07:52:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tired of the Rat Race? Read and Build Wealth!! Message-ID: <199811301544.AAA22752@aics.co.jp> THIS IS IT FOLKS!! This is THE LETTER you've been READING about in the NEWS lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. If you saw it, you know that their conclusion was that while most people did not make the $55,000, as discussed in the plan, EVERYONE who followed the instructions was able to make 100 to 160 times their money at the VERY LEAST. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. "This is one of the most exciting opportunities with the MOST income potential on the internet today!" --48 Hours. Hi, my name is Susan. After I saw this letter aired on the news program, I decided to get some of my skeptical questions answered. Question #1 - Does it really work? Until I try it, I can only go on the testimony of people I don't know, so I will only know if I try it. I've never done this type of thing, but I decided it was time to try something. If I keep doing what I am doing I'll keep getting what I've got. Besides, people 70 years old have been surveyed and they have consistently said that the 2 regrets they have had in their lives were that; 1) They wish they had spent more time with their families and 2) They wish they had taken more chances Upon hearing this again, and hearing what the MEDIA said about it, I decided that at 42, I was going to take a small chance and see what would come of it. Question #2 - Is it legal? - Yes, (Refer to title 18, Section 1302 & 1342 of the U.S. Postal and Lottery Laws) This opportunity isn't much of a risk and could turn out to actually be a bit of fun. Bottom Line; The risk is only $20 and time on the Internet. The following is a copy of the letter that the media was referring to: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ This is a LEGAL, MONEYMAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, READ the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!! You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see! Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash! This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional income. This is a legitimate, LEGAL, moneymaking opportunity. It does not require you to come in personal contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank! This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for! Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams can come true! When followed correctly, this electronic, multi- level marketing program WORKS! Thousands of people have used this program to: - Raise capital to start their own businesses - Pay off debts - Buy homes, cars, etc., - Even retire! This is your chance, Don't pass it up! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basically, this is what we do: We send thousands of people a product that they paid us $5.00 US for, that costs next to nothing to produce and e-mail back to them. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-level business online (via your computer). The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports costing $5.00 each. Each order you receive is to include: * $5.00 cash United States Currency * The name and number of the report they are ordering * The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered. To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. THAT'S IT! The $5.00 is yours! This is the EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere! FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS! +++++++++ I N S T R U C T I O N S +++++++++ This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. * Within a few days you are to receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "d" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember that this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. c. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. d. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to REPORT#4. e. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is removed from the list and has NO DOUBT collected large sums of cash! Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. 4. Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB can be very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another avenue, which you could use for advertising, is e-mail lists. You can buy these lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you can pay someone to take care of it for you. BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY! 5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will help guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! To grow fast be prompt and courteous. -------------------------------------- AVAILABLE REPORTS *Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME* Notes: - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA THE QUICKEST DELIVERY - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address. _________________________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Inter-Line Systems PO Box 175 Milford, NJ 08848 _________________________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Galactic Whispers PO Box 291 Pittstown, NJ 08867 _________________________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: DEM 3 Tallyho Lane Bow, NH 03304 _________________________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: INFO-MEDIA PUBLICATIONS 100 E. WHITESTONE BLVD. SUITE 148-133 CEDAR PARK, TEXAS 78613 _____________________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------- HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$ ---------------------------------------------------- Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 10 members with $5.............$50 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).....................................$500 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)...................................$5,000 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)..................................$50,000 THIS TOTALS ---------------------------------->$55,550 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Lots of people get 100s of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT#3 shows you the most productive methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists. Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even work on trade! About 50,000 new people get online every month ****TIPS FOR SUCCESS**** * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received." *ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ************YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE************ Follow these guidelines to help assure your success: If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 50 orders for REPORT #2. If you don't, continue advertising until you do. Once you have received 50 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash can continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. **T E S T I M O N I A L S** This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 19 weeks, with money still coming in. Phillip A. Brown, Esq. I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on the first try!! D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA I am nearing the $90,000 mark from this program. I have used several forms of advertisement. I used regular mail and bulk e-mail. The regular mail that I used was very expensive for two reasons. I purchased a very select list of names and the postage. The third time I sent e-mails out, I did so in the quantity of 1 million. So, after 3 times participating in this program I am almost at the $90,000 mark. That isn't too bad. I hope the same success for you. Raymond McCormick, New Cannan, Ct. You have great potential for extra earnings that is available at your fingertips! You have unlimited access to wealth, but you must be willing to take that first step! The Media ALREADY PROVED That !!!! You could be making an obscene amount of money! I have given you the information, materials, and opportunity to become financially better off. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!- THINK ABOUT IT - Your risk is only $20.? HOW MUCH DO YOU SPEND ON LOTTO TICKETS- for NO RETURN? ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!! From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 29 17:04:21 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:04:21 +0800 Subject: Evil Bandwidth Plot Exposed In-Reply-To: <896C7C3540C3D111AB9F00805FA78CE2013F85CB@MSX11002> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981128000814.008f6cb0@idiom.com> At 04:40 AM 11/27/98 -0600, Brown, R Ken wrote: >We're still getting clueless people forwarding us email virus hoaxes. >Pen-Pal, Buddy Frogs, Good Times, whatever. > >And I just realised who has to be responsible! Who has a motive for this >"crime"? These things do no-one any real harm, they just take up >bandwidth. Networks get saturated and maybe we have to buy more kit. It >must be the router manufacturers. Maybe there is a secret team at Cisco or >IBM generating new hoaxes to keep the email market growing. A long time ago, in a network far far away, when there were wolves in Wales and Netnews still mostly ran over UUCP instead of that newfangled Arpanet, and the Center of the Earth was either allegra or ihnp4, there were some people who accused Bell Labs and probably in particular Mark Horton of spreading Netnews as part of a plot by The Phone Company to increase telephone usage, since more netnews volume meant more long-distance minutes. (Everybody tried to avoid knowing what the phone bills for allegra and ihnp4 _were_, because even internal funny-money creates some responsibility if you know you're spending more than $1M/year of it :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From riburr at shentel.net Sun Nov 29 19:54:47 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:54:47 +0800 Subject: Net control attempted at the local level (Va.) Message-ID: <36620EED.954CB5D8@shentel.net> A couple of recent Washington Post articles demonstrate Virginia's attempt at internet regulation. A case of restricting access to internet sites by public libraries in Loudoun Co. was ruled against by a federal court: http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-11/27/020l-112798-idx.html A copy of the ruling: http://www.techlawjournal.com/courts/loudon/81123op.htm � � Virginia's governor, James Gilmore III, has appointed a commission on internet technology to recommend policies on guiding internet business and protecting internet users. Guidelines are touted by state officials as being the first in the nation to *protect* residents. Ratification of the recommendations is scheduled to take place at the College of William and Mary on wednesday, Dec. 2, 1998. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-11/29/216l-112998-idx.html Draft agenda of the meeting to be held on Dec. 2, titled "The State's Role in Responsible Internet Growth", is at: http://www.sotech.state.va.us/intagend.htm � From guy at panix.com Sun Nov 29 20:03:59 1998 From: guy at panix.com (Information Security) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:03:59 +0800 Subject: SIGH... NOT!! THC tainted oranges Message-ID: <199811300337.WAA02625@panix7.panix.com> > From: "Dr.G" > > I would certainly appreciate some pot. You need something stronger to ease the pain of being Grubor. > You use pot for medicine too, and the local supply > in nil. I may have to drive to the big Apple. Sorry, you've been sentenced to life in Pittsburgh. ---guy Boo hoo hoo > YOUR SEARCH REQUEST IS: > JOHN GRUBOR > > 1ST STORY of Level 1 printed in FULL format. > > Copyright 1982 U.P.I. > > March 31, 1982, Wednesday, AM cycle > > SECTION: Regional News > > LENGTH: 129 words > > DATELINE: PITTSBURGH > > BODY: > A disbarred Butler County attorney who admitted stealing $28,000 from a > client was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison Wednesday by an Allegheny > County Common Pleas Court judge. > > John Grubor, 36, of Butler, broke down and cried after Judge Robert E. > Dauer imposed the 11-to-23-month prison term to be served at the state > Correctional Institution at Greensburg, Westmoreland County. > > The judge also ordered that Grubor spend five years on probation after > completing the prison sentence. > > Grubor pleaded guilty last month to one count of theft by failure to > make required dispostion of funds entrusted to him. He admitted he bilked a > client out of $28,000 in a workmen's compensation settlement. > > The state Supreme Court disbarred Grubor as a result of the theft. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 29 20:12:17 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:12:17 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811281827.MAA04760@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981129212227.008e9440@idiom.com> >Jim Choate wrote: >> If I had 2 of the Samsung 4G memory modules w/ battery back-up >> I could run an entire machine without a hard-drive. Yeah - it can be quite nice to do that, both for security and speed. Hugh Daniel's done some work on making Unix run on systems with read-only root drives - there are some SCSI drives which support read-only mode again, and there are PCMCIA flash cards which have write-protect switches and look like disks to the OS, so you can set them up the way you want and then go to read-only. Not as many choices if you're running Microsoftware instead of an operating system, though PCs give you some way to fake things out. At 11:26 PM 11/28/98 +0000, Frank O'Dwyer wrote: >If you had no hard drive why the hell would you worry about disk >swapping? You need to jumpstart the machine somehow, and unless you burn the OS into PROMs, the easiest way is disk drives. On the other hand, if Win9X wants to swap something to disk, and there's no disk there, it could get pretty grouchy. A long time ago, when disks and memory were both more expensive, one of the memory companies (Kingston? EMC?) made some SCSI boxes with lots of memory in them, so the operating system doesn't need to know that it's silicon and not rotating metal. They also had UPS battery backup in them. FSCK sure goes faster when you don't need to wait for mechanicals. Some PCMCIA memory cards today just look like more RAM; others can look like disks. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 29 20:18:26 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:18:26 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199811281744.LAA04641@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981129221723.008e9950@idiom.com> At 11:44 AM 11/28/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >My mistake. Since it really does only handle individual apps it's >of limited utility in the Windows world because of the numerous ways >to get system level access. [....] >Considering that this doesn't prohibit apps from getting access to that >memory, it only prohibits that memory page from being written to disk, it >has limited utility. It's only real protection is against disk scans. Sure; it's only trying to do a limited scope of security protection. Trying to protect an entire Win95/98 system is a much bigger job (about like trying to keep water in an upside-down sieve :-) Even running entirely in RAM doesn't prevent applications from stealing keystroke, or stealing each others' RAM, or crashing the graphics subsystem, or hosing the network. Windows NT, under some limited circumstances, has been rated C2 Orange Book, but that only means you can't steal most things without creating a log file entry. Don't expect Win95/98 to be something it's not. >No, it wouldn't. The question of swap or virtual space is one of economics >and not computer architecture. If it were economicaly feasible there would >be no drives just fast main ram. Computer architecture is _always_ a technical and economic tradeoff. Why not just run everything out of Level 1 Cache or registers? Disk drive makers keep making faster, cheaper, bigger drives, DRAM makers keep making DRAM faster, cheaper, and bigger, blazingly-fast SRAM makers keep making SRAM blazinglyer, in-between technology makers keep making flash ram and bubble memory in-betweener, bus makers make busses faster, etc., and the whole mess keeps evolving together. Back in the mid-80s, Princeton University got some SDI money for the Massive Memory Machine Project, researching what you could do if you had enough memory for anything you wanted. Even with the CS approaches of the time, you'd do a lot of things differently. Their non-massive toy machine was a 1.5MIPS VAX with 128MB RAM - which took 10 extension racks to hold all the RAM. These days 128MB is cheap, as are 500 MIPS P2s, but 50GB of RAM is still bigger than most machines' busses will hold, and even 2GB of DRAM is a lot bigger and more power-hungry than most laptops can really support, much less 2GB of fast SRAM. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From riburr at shentel.net Sun Nov 29 20:26:56 1998 From: riburr at shentel.net (Frederick Burroughs) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:26:56 +0800 Subject: Net control attempted at the local level (Va.) In-Reply-To: <36620EED.954CB5D8@shentel.net> Message-ID: <366217D6.CE665406@shentel.net> Developing Internet Policy for Commonwealth, the first comprehensive state internet legislation anywhere in the nation: �http://www.sotech.state.va.us/102898.htm From registration at evguide.intervu.net Sun Nov 29 20:57:19 1998 From: registration at evguide.intervu.net (eyeQ Registration) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:57:19 +0800 Subject: eyeQ Signup (SID=2e4628740b7a7d730a7f6d783e3a10) Message-ID: <199811300424.UAA11343@evguide.intervu.net.> To complete the registration process, please reply to this e-mail. Make sure that "SID=2e4628740b7a7d730a7f6d783e3a10" appears somewhere in the subject line. Thank you for using eyeQ! eyeQ From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 29 21:06:56 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:06:56 +0800 Subject: Fwd: FC: EU eavesdropping on Iridium satellite phone system In-Reply-To: <199811280332.TAA02042@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981129233444.008ea910@idiom.com> Hugh Daniel and various other people have commented (or ranted :-) about the difference in wiretap capabilities between satellite systems that do space-to-space relay connections for user-to-user calls and systems that always include a ground segment even if it's not needed, and which move traffic mostly on the ground instead of in space. The primary reasons for doing this have been to reduce interference by government PTTs or other monopoly telecom providers who get a cut of the financial action this way, but it also makes the system accessible to every wiretap-happy police force whose territory the terrestrial segment passed through, and the US government has probably been one of many players trying to maximize government access. At 10:21 PM 11/27/98 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >any reactions? some of my newspaper colleagues are thinking of writing >about this... >>---------- Forwarded message ---------- .... >>As a Europol internal document obtained by Telepolis shows, >>massive attempts on the part of European police forces are >>underway to acquire the ability to eavesdrop on the Iridium system, >>currently in a sensitive stage of expansion. .... >>http://www.telepolis.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/1667/1.html Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From nobody at dragoncon.net Sun Nov 29 21:29:20 1998 From: nobody at dragoncon.net (dctest Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:29:20 +0800 Subject: dctest remailer - remailer@dragoncon.net Message-ID: <199811300459.XAA05002@inferno.serversystems.net> A new remailer will be up for the next two weeks. This is an attempt to play with and test the Win95 Reliable remailer software available at ftp://ftp.efga.org/privacy remailer at dragoncon.net is a Cypherpunk Type I remailer w/o Mix, which uses RSA keys. The operator had problems getting the later key types to work properly. Please send comments about the configuration and operation to admin at dragoncon.net From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 29 21:48:02 1998 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:48:02 +0800 Subject: Frames security hole Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981130001506.008e9e40@idiom.com> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:27:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Lindsay.Marshall at newcastle.ac.uk Subject: Frames security hole There is a description and demo of a security hole with frames in web browsers at http://www.securexpert.com/framespoof/start.html - there is a version that works without javascript enabled as well. http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay ------------------------------ I checked it out, and it's way cool. You open some frame-using target page, such as www.citibank.com, in Netscape or Internet Exploder, and cliok on their hack, and a new frame appears on the target page, replacing some frame that belonged there. They say they can fake out Netscape's "key" icon that claims that an https: page is secure, though I didn't have any handy frame-based https pages to test with. Technical Discussion: http://www.securexpert.com/framespoof/tech.html Some defenses http://www.securexpert.com/framespoof/defense.html ==> but the rel defense is getting your browser vendor to fix the browser. Meanwhile, don't trust any web page with frames with any information you care too much about. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From gnu at toad.com Sun Nov 29 21:55:23 1998 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:55:23 +0800 Subject: Internet Society: 1999 Board of Trustees Call for Nominations Message-ID: <199811300505.VAA00944@toad.com> I'm currently serving a 3-year term on the Board of Trustees of the Internet Society, and have volunteered for the nominations committee. The board is elected by the membership; every year five or six Trustees are elected to three-year staggered terms. I would like to see talented people who care about the future of society serve on the board. I know there are many such among the cypherpunks. If you are willing to serve on the Board, please nominate yourself, or if you know someone who's willing to serve and who you think would be good, please nominate them. Send such nominations to isoc-noms at isoc.org. The message below gives all the details. Not everyone nominated will be on the ballot; the nominations committee will winnow it to a list of ten or fifteen people. And among those people, only the top five vote-getters will be elected by the membership. Anyone who the nominations committee doesn't pick for the ballot, can get on it anyway, if they submit a petition from 65 Internet Society members to put their name on the ballot. That's how I got on the ballot when I was elected a few years ago. (IETF is a great place to run around and get people to sign your petition.) Being a Trustee makes you responsible for the acts of the Internet Society. And you get to help decide what those acts will be. It's an unpaid, volunteer job. You get to fly (at your own expense) to the board meetings a few times a year. ISOC has done many good things, like training people in a hundred countries how to set up the first Internet node there. Like publicly stating (in RFC 1984) that it will ignore US export controls when designing worldwide Internet crypto protocols. Like working hard to resolve the mess around domain-name and IP-address administration, and the mess around the "Internet" trademark. ISOC also provides the organizational structure for the IETF and the Internet Architecture Board. ISOC will probably do many more good things -- particularly if it has good people as Trustees! Whether or not you want to be a Trustee, I encourage you to join the Internet Society as a member -- see http://www.isoc.org/isoc/membership/ John Gilmore Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981118080715.00927100 at pop.isoc.org> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:07:15 -0500 From: Internet Society Subject: 1999 Board of Trustees Call for Nominations 1999 Internet Society Board of Trustees Elections Call for Nominations On 26 February 1999, ballots will be posted for the election of new Internet Society Trustees. Election Day is scheduled for 3 May 1999, when received ballots will be opened and tallied. Internet Society members will be asked to elect FIVE Trustees who will serve three year terms. The role of a Trustee is detailed in the Internet Society By-Laws (not included in this notice but available on the Internet Society web server): http://www.isoc.org/trustees/ This notice is a call from the ISOC Nominations Committee for nominations of candidates for election. Nominations are to be forwarded to this committee via: - electronic mail to: isoc-noms at isoc.org or - fax to +1 703 648 9887 or - postal mail to: Internet Society 12020 Sunrise Valley Drive, Suite 210 Reston, VA 20191-3429 U.S.A. Attention: 1999 Nominations Committee Nominations are to reach the committee no later than 17 December 1998 in order to ensure due consideration of the nomination by the committee. Nominations (in the form of agreed nominations, suggestions or volunteers) are to include the name of the nominated individual, contact details and a brief explanation of the basis of the nomination. The committee will confirm with the candidates their willingness to stand for election as a nominated candidate if so selected. Nominees will also be requested to provide the committee with further personal details (in the format of a curriculum vita) as they relate to the selection guidelines that are to be applied by the committee, and provide to the committee a statement indicating their willingness and ability to devote an appropriate level of time to activities associated with the position of Trustee of the Internet Society. It is intended that the committee's selection process will result in 10 candidates for election as nominated candidates. This list will be passed to the Elections Committee on 19 December 1998, as well as informing voting members of the Society of the selected nominees. Additional candidates for election to the Board of Trustees may be nominated by membership petition, filed with the Chair of the Nominating Committee no later than 22 January 1999. A petition for the 1999 election will require the signatures of sixty-five voting ISOC members (1% of the total voting members). Specific details of the petition process will be included in the announcement of nominated candidates on 19 December 1998. Following the closure of the petition period, the list of the nominated and petitioned candidates will be announced 29 January 1999. The Election Committee will mail the ballots out to ISOC voting members on 26 February 1999 and the election date is set to be 3 May 1999. Sincerely, Kees Neggers Chair, ISOC Nominations Committee Kees.Neggers at SURFnet.nl tel: +31 302 305 305 fax: +31 302 305 329 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A. The 1999 ISOC Nominations Committee membership 1. Kees Neggers, Netherlands 2. John Gilmore, US 3. Jun Murai, Japan 4. Leni Mayo, Australia 5. Steve Wolff, US 6. Kim Claffy, US 7. Jill Foster, UK Committee Email address: isoc-noms at isoc.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ B. Nominations Committee Selection Guidelines Candidates for ISOC Trustee should have a demonstrable involvement in the Internet. Such involvement may range from participation as a technology developer, researcher, user, network operator, policy maker (e.g. in government), sponsor of research and development. ISOC is interested in broadly-based representation on the Board of Trustees and seeks to identify candidates from industry, education and non-profit sectors and from government. The selection criteria will be directed to selecting a broad range of interests, and will include criteria of regional location, current activities, relevant experience and professional background. Ten candidates will be selected by this committee, using the criteria as outlined above. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. A Profile of the current Board of Trustees "#" marks board positions that are expiring. "&" marks board members who have indicated that they will not or cannot be candidates for re-election. The current membership (as of 1 November, 1998) of the Board of Trustees is as follows: #&Scott Bradner 1993-1999 USA Vint Cerf 1992-2001 USA #&Susan Estrada 1993-1999 USA #&David Farber 1993-1999 USA John Gilmore 1997-2000 USA Christian Huitema 1995-2001 France Geoff Huston 1992-1995, 1998-2001 Australia Christine Maxwell 1997-2000 France Jun Murai 1997-2000 Japan Kees Neggers 1992-1996, 1998-2001 Tim O'Reilly 1995-2001 USA Jose Luis Pardos 1997-2000 Spain <104056.110 at compuserve.com> #George Sadowsky 1996-1999 USA Ben Segal 1997-2000 Suisse #Vacancy Donald Heath Ex-officio USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ D. Procedures for Nomination and Election of Trustees 1. Trustee Positions to be Filled The Board of Trustees will advise the Nominating Committee of the number of Trustee positions to be filled by vote of the individual members at each annual election. The Board may also advise the Nominating Committee of its desires with respect to the backgrounds of individuals to be nominated in order to achieve the balance of experience and qualifications required by the provisions of By-Law Article III, Section 2, which provides that "the Board shall seek to have among the Trustees representative individuals from industry, from educational and nonprofit organizations and from government." 1.1 Date of Election The Board of Trustees will annually adopt a timetable for Trustee elections. The election date shall be not less than 40 days prior to the next Annual Meeting of the Society. 1.2 Use of Electronic Mail All communications concerning the nomination and election of Trustees shall be in the form of electronic mail except the ballot, which shall be in the form of first class postal mail or FAX. Members of the Society who are not reachable by electronic mail may participate in the nomination process by postal mail or FAX. 2. Nominating Committee The Board of Trustees will annually appoint a Trustee Nominating Committee. The Nominating Committee will consist of 7 individual members of the Society, 5 of whom shall constitute a valid quorum. The Chair of the Nominating Committee shall be a member of the Board of Trustees. At least 2 members of the Nominating Committee shall be individual members of the Society not currently serving in any elected or appointed capacity in the Society. 2.1 Nominations by Committee The Nominating Committee will notify the members of the Society of the procedures for nominating individuals for election to the Board of Trustees, and will provide a minimum period for receiving nominations of 30 days. The number of individuals nominated shall exceed the number of Trustees to be elected. 2.2 Nominations by Petition The Nominating Committee will notify the voting members of the Society of the names of individuals nominated by the committee for election to the Board of Trustees not less than 105 days prior to the date established for Trustee elections. Additional nominations for election to the Board of Trustees may be made by petition filed with the Chair of the Nominating Committee not less than 75 days prior to the election. Petitions may be filed electronically. The Nominating Committee shall specify the number of signatures of voting members required for petitions, which shall be at least fifty voting members of the Society, or 1% of the total number of voting members of the Society, whichever is greater. 2.3 Candidates for Election The Nominating Committee will provide the names of a completed slate of candidates for election to the Elections Committee not less than 74 days prior to the election date. 3. Elections Committee The Board of Trustees will annually appoint an Elections Committee composed of three voting members of the Society which will be responsible for establishing and supervising elections. The Chair of the committee shall be a Trustee whose term of office does not expire during the year of the election. 3.1 Eligibility to Vote All individual members of the Society in good standing are eligible to vote. An individual member is in good standing if his or her annual dues are not more than 60 days past due on the date of mailing of the ballot. 3.2 Ballot The Trustee election shall be conducted by written ballot of the individual members, which shall be mailed to each member of the Society in good standing not less than 60 days prior to the date of the election. 3.3 Voting Each voting member will be entitled to as many votes as there are Trustee positions to be filled by vote of the members. Votes may be cumulated on behalf of one or more candidates for election. A member may use fewer than the total number of votes available if he or she so chooses. 3.4 Receipt of Ballots All ballots for Trustee elections shall be received by the Chair of the Elections Committee by 5 PM local time on the day prior to the date of the election, at the place established by the Elections Committee for delivery of the ballots. 3.5 Counting of Ballots The counting of ballots will take place on the election date, at a time and place established by the Elections Committee. At least two members of the Elections Committee shall be present at the counting of the ballots. The committee will establish procedures to ensure the privacy, validity and accuracy of all ballots. 3.6 Certification of Vote The Elections Committee shall certify the results of the annual Trustee election to the Board of Trustees within 10 days following the election, forwarding a list of the candidates and the number of votes each candidate has received. 3.7 Challenges No challenge to any Trustee nomination or election procedure or result may be brought except by an individual member in good standing. Any challenge must be addressed to the President of the Society with a recital of the reasons for the challenge, and must be received within 20 days of the election date. The President, after consultation with the Chairs of the Nominating and Elections Committees and the members of the Board of Trustees, shall advise the author of the challenge of the Board's decision, which shall be final, within 40 days of the election date. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1999 ISOC Nomination and Trustee Election Committee Timetable November 17, 1998 . Nominations Period Opens December 17, 1998 . Nominations Period Closes December 19, 1999 . Nominations Committee Announcement January 22, 1999 . . Petition Period Closes January 29, 1999 . . Candidate Announcement February 26, 1999 . Ballots Posted March 1, 1999 . . . Election Period Opens May 3, 1999 . . . . Election Date May 3, 1999 . . . . Challenge Period Opens May 13, 1999 . . . . Elections Committee Certifies Result May 23, 1999 . . . . Challenge Period Closes June 12, 1999 . . . . ISOC Response to Challenge Period Closes June 21, 1999 . . . ISOC Board of Trustees Annual General Meeting ------------------------------------------------------------------------ F. Assumption of Office of Elected Trustees The term of office of elected Trustees shall commence at the adjournment of the next Board meeting following the completion of the election process. The term of office for departing Trustees shall end at the adjournment of the next Board meeting following the completion of the election process. The Board meeting is defined as having one agenda, which may extend over several days. The new Board may convene an organizational meeting after the completion of the meeting of the outgoing Board. From vaneijk59 at sara.nl Mon Nov 30 16:10:47 1998 From: vaneijk59 at sara.nl (vaneijk59 at sara.nl) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:10:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199811302354.IAA00671@sy-name.kure-j.ac.jp> addresses like CompuServe, MCI, ANON's, etc. This causes a tremendous amount of undeliverables. After completion of removal of duplicates and initial filtering we were left with the base of 10 Million addresses worth fine tuning to finish the project. Remember, we are not here to produce the CD with the gad zillion millions that our competitors are so proud to put their names on these days. We ARE here to produce the very BEST CD list as far as quality of addresses go We then ran a program that contained 300+ keywords to remove addresses with vulgarity, profanity, sex-related names, postmaster, webmaster, flamer, abuse, spam, etc., etc. Also eliminated all .EDU, mil, .org, .GOV, Genie, Delphi, GNN, Wow etc. We also filtered out all addresses found in any of our 1300+ domains list. We also filtered out addresses in excess of 30,000 which have proven to be affiliated with anyone found to be opposed to our using direct bulk email as a advertising medium. We have also purged the list to be free of any "web poison" addresses created by those who are opposed to us conducting legitimate business on the internet today. If you do not know what web poisoned addresses are, please look it up now. One list we recently purchased had over 90% poisoned addresses. The "bottom line" here is that you can go out on the world market today and purchase every lists for thousands of dollars and NOT have anymore worth owning than what we have compiled for you here today. You use these addresses, you will experience increased response, increased sales, and a host of other positives that far exceeds any hoped for results when using the competitor's inferior products. Our customers purchase our products over and over and over. Most of the competition ever succeeds is selling a second product to anyone after they purchase the first. So, you see, our list will save people hundreds of dollars buying all others that are out there on CD and otherwise. Using ours will be like using the 200+ million that we started with, but a lot less money and a lot less time!! We have always said, "You can buy from the REST or you can buy from the BEST". Your choice. _____________________________ What others are saying: "I received the CD on Friday evening. Like a kid with a new toy, I immediately started bulking out using the new email addresses. Over the course of the weekend, I emailed out over 500,000 emails and I received less than TWENTY undeliverables!! I am totally satisfied with my purchase!! Thanks Premier!!" Dave Buckley Houston, TX "This list is worth it's weight in gold!! I sent out 100,000 emails for my product and received over 55 orders! Ann Colby New Orleans, LA **************************************** HERE'S THE BOTTOM LINE The CD is comprised of 7 million PREMIUM & SUPER clean addresses -ready for mailing upon receipt of the CD. Each file contains exactly 100,000 email addresses. There are only AOL & Mixed addresses on this CD. You have 50 files of 100,000 each of AOL to equal 5,000,000 addresses. The AOL addresses are less than 6 weeks old and have been collected throughout the production schedule. The remaining files are comprised of General Internet addresses. There are 20 files of 100,000 each, totaling 2,000,000 premium addresses. NO Compuserve! No Delphi! No Genie! No Prodigy! NO Filler Addresses! Simply the Best of the Best!!! >>> ONLY $200.00! This price is effective for the next seven days, thereafter the price will be $299.00 so ORDER NOW! Remember, bottom-line you always get what you pay for! All lists are completely free of any Duplicates. We also on a continual basis, add New Names and Remove Undeliverables and Remove Requests. The result is the Cleanest Email Addresses Available Anywhere to use over and over again, for a FRACTION of the cost that other companies charge. Typical rates for acquiring email lists are from 1cent to as high as 3 cents per email address - that's "INFORMATION HIGHWAY" ROBBERY!. We continually work on our CD. Who knows when those other CDs were made. We're constantly adding and deleting addresses, removes. Etc. It all comes back to quality. Don't even hesitate on this one or you will miss out on the most effective way to market anywhere...PERIOD! If you have any further questions or to place an order, you can call toll free at: 800-600-0343 Ext. 2693 To order our email package, simply print out the EZ ORDER FORM below and fax or mail it to our office today. We accept Visa, Mastercard, AMEX, Checks by Fax. _________________ EZ Order Form _____Yes! I would like to order MILLIONS Vol. 2 email addresses for only $200.00. *Please select one of the following for shipping.. ____I would like to receive my package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $15 for shipping. (outside US add an additional $25 for shipping) ____I would like to receive my package 2 DAY delivery. I'm including $10 for shipping. (outside US add an additional $25 for shipping) DATE_____________________________________________________ NAME____________________________________________________ COMPANY NAME___________________________________________ ADDRESS_________________________________________________ CITY, STATE, ZIP___________________________________________ PHONE NUMBERS__________________________________________ FAX NUMBERS_____________________________________________ EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________________________ TYPE OF CREDIT CARD: ______VISA _____MASTERCARD CREDIT CARD# __________________________________________ EXPIRATION DATE________________________________________ NAME ON CARD___________________________________________ AMOUNT $____________________ (Required) SIGNATURE:x________________________ DATE:x__________________ You may fax your order to us at: 1-212-504-8192 CHECK BY FAX SERVICES! If you would like to fax a check, paste your check below and fax it to our office along with all forms to: 1-212-504-8192 ****************************************************** ***24 HOUR FAX SERVICES*** PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE AND FAX IT TO US AT 1-212-504-8192 ******************************************************* If You fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check. All checks will be held for bank clearance. (7-10 days) Make payable to: "GD Publishing" From martinusl at hotmail.com Mon Nov 30 06:06:00 1998 From: martinusl at hotmail.com (Martinus Luther) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:06:00 +0800 Subject: y2k/gary north delusions Message-ID: <19981130131031.26101.qmail@hotmail.com> VNZ quoted Gary North: > Astronomy is a precise science. It can predict > events such as this one with remarkable accuracy. > The astronomers do not know how intense this > shower will be, but they know for certain that tonight > will be the highest density night. Actually they were 10 or 12 hours out - which in Europe at any rate had the effect that the highest density night was't the one predicted :-) But I agree with you. This whole apocalyptic take on the thing is (almost certainly) wrong. (Of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for it... if you honestly thought that spending a few hundred dollars could save you from a 1% chance of death, you'd probably do it. If the 99% turns out to be true what have you got - a year's supply of baked beans & sardines in tomato sauce) Computers will crash - or rather more seriously applications will produce bad results, this is much more an application problem than an OS problem - in fact things are already going wrong. But it won't happen all in one big bang on the 1st of January. Things will get slowly worse for the next year, the rate of problems will go up, more people will be knocking up quick-and-dirty work-arounds and fewer people working on new projects. North looks at it as a programming problem - but it's not, not when it actually hits, it then becomes ann operations problem. And operators, system programmers & system administrators are used to working with computer systems that don't work. They do it every day. And the peopel who rely on computer systems are used to working when they go down. And if they aren't there are all those middle-aged middle-managers they laid off in the downsizing who can come back and show them how it used to be done. There will be hassle and hard work and very possibly a depression. But there is very, very unlikely to be the kind of catastrophic failure that North seems to long for. And even if it does fall out that way, he's wrong about cities as well. We *know* cities survive a hell of a beating, we saw it again and again in WW2. (Take a look at a picture of Hamburg in August 1943. They rebuilt that. Themselves, starting the day after) The complete physical destruction of the infrastructure of a city does not kill a city. A city is made of *people*, not buildings. People with the skills that make cities work, and people who - just because they are in a city - need to get along to make cities work. If all our big systems go down we will rebuild them. And what's more we'll rebuild them quickest in the big cities, because it's the big cities that have the concentration of people with the skills, and perhaps more importantly, the motivation to rebuild them. (Anyway, despite North, in the event of a complete collapse of business and government probably the worst place to be is the outer suburbs. You need fuel to get around (in the inner cities everything is close by). If there are refugees from cities they have to pass through the suburbs - and there is a lot more to steal there than there is on the open countryside & a lot fewer people to stop you than in the city centres.) *Real* rural life will continue of course, because people have the land and the skills to use it. And becauwse they tend to have stores. I don't know if it would be a very prosperous rural life for most people in the "developed" parts of the world though. I wonder what the sudden withdrawl of pesticides, herbicides, fertiliser, & fuel to fly the crop-sprayer would do to yields on the average American industrial farm? If the year 2000 is half as bad as North says it will be there will be a massive change in the balance of economic power away from North America and towards the so-called Third World. It looks like Gary North isn't really interested in the year 2000 problem. What he is interested in seems to be guns. He's latched on to this issue because it allows him to think and write more about guns. And, like so many other gunwankers he seems to get off fantasising about the total collapse of civil society because that way he gets to feel good about his guns. All this obession with death and destruction is a bit strange in someone rumoured to be a Christian. Of course where I am in London it's all academic. The nearest genuine open country is maybe 150 miles away, in a different nation, on the other side of the Channel. Most of what passes for countyside in the south of England is really exurbia, a sort of huge extended suburbia got up to look rural. Less than one percent of the population actually works on the land. We have more computer programmers than farmers. Most people in London have never even met a farmer. If it all falls over we will just have to put it back up again because there is no-where else to go. Hey, maybe North is right about the USA. Maybe all the programmers will leave town to starve in the country. Maybe the systems will never get fixed. Maybe heavily armed gangs will take over the cities. Maybe you never will rebuild your civilization. I hope not. But if it does turn out that way we'll send you some foreign aid. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 30 07:40:55 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:40:55 +0800 Subject: F.U.D. ... or "The Webmaster of this site is on more than weed" Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi, I came across a funny article about a "CIA, DEA, FBI, Lucent Technologies, Replay.com, Seed-bank.com Grand Conspiracy" at http://members.tripod.com/~spookbusters/sunnysnooping.htm Made for some interesting reading, and certain aspects of the site do merit discussion/investigation. Regards, Ken Williams Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/ E.H.A.P. Head of Operations http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org NC State CS Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ _____________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNmKwiJDw1ZsNz1IXAQFV/Qf/TJLUEDFq8wJhgO7LLEAbBnwnZHm8jWjm 7J5KquhZXopBzZtTXb/GCitu7Wzo+MZZLi2UrtPysnyEJGgBBAqLN38NShwwS4bT iwd5MyUW37l4Ha4S2rn3HdneVcJlHLn53y9f6xaMDyW1uXbbVtfDEdXCnFXO5In1 URraEyPeNCYvvj5n2gcUeePIK1N+zLHgyRcaaAgjpVWFo6/lV/51YuLbWtC7obqS J76Ixeu1qbLV9LiYq4BsiBB8E+AemZ3Cq8U/8L1zjiUNxj5APgVG3QlNV1jjdO9H t/8c0s602IcVJJYMZhhBs4eCNvIi1dpi5Hn7VeUxsKnANm8OwJm6Fg== =GUk5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 30 07:40:56 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:40:56 +0800 Subject: more FUD! Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Interesting FUD-related thread on my message board that is tied in to the mail i just sent... http://www.genocide2600.com/~tattooman/wb/messages/1011.html Regards, Ken Williams Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/ E.H.A.P. Head of Operations http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org NC State CS Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ _____________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNmKxg5Dw1ZsNz1IXAQFkfggAxXMR36cFDQj7drU1u2mqOrNyxIl9Ao0t SwqmoRApPwZgfnS9AG4OvVFj4DZ/vcU0YQp+lNFdlJmP/xI4CpSN+8iKS03avYdD IlasuNLV26bICpqy4cZvux1bZl2W3aaKyfPhK6nA27E83C+O3itiihqkPj/BW91Y jgCF9acVGp/axdGqjtevxXEn2cF7jqR3XzekNTtYjOj1kKhTcto9B6eZzlFu1xBy RHQa95t6SeIKsmXaEbAK0J+ztn5YomuLTT1knlZg0z3myCQ/FOuyy9/DPIU99ijv mSaGoByccUH72/H0pTyUHhmSMYAW2tTQyWqJdKnHwMGcn7V5INa1Jg== =EwZu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 30 10:34:05 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 02:34:05 +0800 Subject: custom protocol = job security Message-ID: <199811301742.SAA04040@replay.com> At 08:54 AM 11/30/98 -0600, Brown, R Ken wrote: >> Dianelos Georgoudis[SMTP:dianelos at tecapro.com] described a security system > >If I was a bank I would be very wary of proposals like "We would write our >own transmission protocol. " That seems to introduce yet more complexity, custom protocol = job security From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 30 11:05:56 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 03:05:56 +0800 Subject: F.U.D. ... or "The Webmaster of this site is on more than weed" Message-ID: <199811301823.TAA08331@replay.com> Ken Williams writes: > I came across a funny article about a "CIA, DEA, FBI, Lucent > Technologies, Replay.com, Seed-bank.com Grand Conspiracy" at > http://members.tripod.com/~spookbusters/sunnysnooping.htm This is a critique of an article describing a way to do anonymous email and how to use remailers. The original article proposed using the Lucent privacy proxy at www.lpwa.com as an intermediary to a free email server like hotmail. The critique got all hot and bothered over the fact that Lucent is a government contractor and so the original post must have been a plant by the FBI. In fact, the LPWA-Hotmail technique is suitable for moderately secure anonymity but not for lawbreaking. This poster has used the technique occasionally for over a year. It is certainly better than hotmail alone, since hotmail includes the originating IP address in its outgoing email. By using LPWA, the originating IP field holds the LPWA IP address, and the actual originating IP address is not revealed. However, as LPWA clearly states in their privacy policy (http://lpwa.com:8000/policy.html), they keep logs of connections, and will make those available to law enforcement if presented with a court order. This would make it possible to track down the originating IP which sent the mail. Despite its limitations, this technique has the advantages of ease of use and moderate security. All you have to do is to set the lpwa.com proxy in your browser, and use hotmail for email. You can both send and receive email, which is hard to do with any other technique. It is comparable in security and convenience to the late anon.penet.fi server, which did much to increase awareness of anonymity technologies on the net. (The original article was titled "Quick and Dirty Anonymity", which seems an accurate enough description.) From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 30 11:07:44 1998 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 03:07:44 +0800 Subject: "Export" controls Message-ID: <3662E37B.2ADC@lsil.com> > Export farce is just a neat way of scaring companies and individual > contributors from developing and providing cryptographic systems > within US. > 100% accurate, but old, conclusions. > Anyone providing domestic crypto runs the risk of violating EARs. > Manufacturers are ultimately responsible when their products end up > overseas... > Can you give me an example of a commercial vendor who has suffered because someone bought a "dangerous" product ( Windows, for example ) at retail and carried it out of the country in a suitcase? My guess would be that anything sold at retail would pose no problem for the manufacturer unless domestic regulations were in place. Even then the retailer is the first in line for questioning. > [ For example, try to buy one of IBM crypto-cards - give them a call > and ask what does it take to purchase one with hard crypto on it > Save me the phone call and describe your experience. BTW - IBM derives a large portion of its revenues from government contracts. They would be pretty easy to convince. An non-dependant might be different. > Would a US citizen have to produce ID in order to buy ? > Not until there are domestic regulations. Except for firearms, cigarettes, alcohol and prescription drugs I can't think of any. My guess would be that start-up manufacturers could get their tails twisted long before the retail shelf: Personal Audits Business Audits Supplier problems ( caused by similar techniques being threatened or applied ) FCC EMI Test Delays and Failures Credit Problems Lots of Traffic Tickets for everyone. It could be fun to try an embedded product. Make some development kits then try to license it. Let a manufacturer with some resources handle the heavy lifting. If you have trouble with that give 'em the bird - just write a damn book, source, VHDL etc. You can even export that. My favorites are: Secure phone - I know it exists already but still fun Disk encryptor - SCSI/EIDE, a bump in the wire between the motherboard and the disk drive. With its own smartcard/keypad interface, keys are never seen by OS. It doesn't solve the security problem while the system is on but it sure as hell makes the disk useless to opponents once it has been shut off. Good storage. Effectively shredded if you destroy the smart card or forget the key. The proper way to keep your data as long as the courts respect the Fifth Amendment. Oh well, Mike From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 30 11:09:26 1998 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 03:09:26 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) Message-ID: <19981130180002.17576.qmail@nym.alias.net> Bill Stewart wrote: > Back in the mid-80s, Princeton University got some SDI money for the > Massive Memory Machine Project, researching what you could do if > you had enough memory for anything you wanted. Even with the > CS approaches of the time, you'd do a lot of things differently. > Their non-massive toy machine was a 1.5MIPS VAX with 128MB RAM - > which took 10 extension racks to hold all the RAM. > These days 128MB is cheap, as are 500 MIPS P2s, but 50GB of RAM > is still bigger than most machines' busses will hold, > and even 2GB of DRAM is a lot bigger and more power-hungry than > most laptops can really support, much less 2GB of fast SRAM. There used to be a rule of thumb that you'd want roughly a megabyte per megahertz. Today, with our 200+ MHz processors, we tend to have considerably less memory than this. My Gateway PC from a couple of years ago came with a 200 MHz Pentium Pro but only 32 MB of memory. Most PCs today are not well balanced architecturally. They should really have a couple hundred megabytes of memory. Memory is cheap enough today that this can be added, but the motherboard configuration may limit the amount. If you had this much memory, swapping to disk would be a smaller problem. As for the idea of running without a disk drive, see the handheld PDAs like the PalmPilot and the Microsoft WinCE machines. The problem with these from the security standpoint is that the memory is non-volatile. With a PC, we don't worry too much about junk in memory because we turn it off occasionally. We are concerned about the disk because that is where the persistent storage is. But with a memory-only machine, you end up using your memory as a de-facto disk drive, so that the contents of memory become just as sensitive as the contents of disk would be on a PC. Someone who gets hold of your PDA can dump out memory and find sensitive data which is stored there. Theoretically you can use a password to protect data, but then there are tradeoffs between security and ease of use, and you may end up leaving data exposed for extended periods. But speaking of using passwords to protect data, how about an encrypted swapfile for a PC? There are fast enough ciphers today that the virtual memory system could encrypt data as it swaps to the disk, and decrypt as it loads back into memory. You'd type in the passphrase at boot time. This would solve the problem of sensitive data leaking onto the disk via the swapfile. There could still be traces in memory, but at least this most obvious leak would be plugged. You don't have to wait for apps to be rewritten to use secure memory allocation drivers, you get the benefit immediately. Can existing encrypting-filesystem drivers be used for swapfiles? From die at die.com Mon Nov 30 12:14:50 1998 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:14:50 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19981130180002.17576.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <19981130143320.A2756@die.com> On Mon, Nov 30, 1998 at 06:00:02PM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > > But speaking of using passwords to protect data, how about an encrypted > swapfile for a PC? There are fast enough ciphers today that the virtual > memory system could encrypt data as it swaps to the disk, and decrypt > as it loads back into memory. You'd type in the passphrase at boot time. Why the hell would you need a passphrase or any persistant security for something transient like the swap ? Might just as well choose a completely random key (from /dev/urandom perhaps) and make every effort to erase and forget it on system shutdown or crash. In fact an algorithm that initialized a crypto engine and then forgot the key used would be ideal, provided only that it remains possible to recover blocks of swap out of order from the order they were written in (they are quite likely to get swapped back in a very different order than they were written out, so simple stream ciphers are hard to use). There is nothing in a swapfile of value beyond an instantation of the OS, except of course for snooping and debugging crashes. The only real hastle with doing this in real OS's is that the swap may get initialized before a lot of randomness gets collected on startup. One might have to start encrypting swap after it was enabled (but probably before much actual swapping). -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From pooh at efga.org Mon Nov 30 12:14:51 1998 From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:14:51 +0800 Subject: dctest remailer - remailer@dragoncon.net In-Reply-To: <199811300459.XAA05002@inferno.serversystems.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981130141527.03bf1130@rboc.net> Currently no encrypted email is apparently getting through the dctest remailer. I'll look into fixing the problem later. Only non encrypted remailer mail is working. At 05:00 AM 11/30/98 -0000, dctest Anonymous Remailer wrote: >A new remailer will be up for the next two weeks. This is an attempt to >play with and test the Win95 Reliable remailer software available at >ftp://ftp.efga.org/privacy > >remailer at dragoncon.net is a Cypherpunk Type I remailer w/o Mix, which uses >RSA keys. The operator had problems getting the later key types to work >properly. Please send comments about the configuration and operation to >admin at dragoncon.net > > -- Robert Costner Phone: (770) 512-8746 Electronic Frontiers Georgia mailto:pooh at efga.org http://www.efga.org/ run PGP 5.0 for my public key From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 30 12:54:00 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:54:00 +0800 Subject: Big Brother Banks? FDIC has snooping plans Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text >Big Brother Banks? FDIC has snooping plans >By David M. Bresnahan >Copyright 1998 WorldNetDaily.com > > > Are you a potential criminal? Are you a threat to banks, airlines, a >potential spy, or perhaps an IRS tax protester? The government >would like to know and they are about to force banks to be their >detectives. > >The federal government wants banks to investigate you. Soon your >banker will know more about you than anyone else in town. Banks >must not only determine your correct identity, they must also know >how you make your money, and how you spend it. Once you >establish a pattern of deposits and withdrawals, banks must inform >federal agencies when you deviate. > >Bank customers may soon find themselves explaining to the FBI, >Internal Revenue Service, and the Drug Enforcement Agency why >they made a $15,000 deposit to their bank account. According to >current Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation plans, banks will >soon establish "profiles" of their customers and report deviations >from those profiles. > >If you sell a car, for example, and place the proceeds in your >account while you shop for a new one, a red flag may go off in the>bank > computer. Such a situation puts law abiding citizens in a >situation where they must prove they are innocent, says Scott >McDonald of the watchdog group Fight the Fingerprint. > >An uproar from grass roots Americans is the only thing that will >stop the current plans for the FDIC "Know Your Customer" >program, according to McDonald. His organization has led the >charge against the national ID, medical ID, and computerized >information about private aspects of people's lives. > >A recent announcement by the FDIC provides for citizen comment >prior to implementation of their new banking regulations. The >deadline for comments is Dec. 27, 1998. > >"The FDIC is proposing to issue a regulation requiring insured >nonmember banks to develop and maintain 'Know Your Customer' >programs," according to a recent FDIC information package sent >to Congress to provide notice of proposed rulemaking, and to >banks for comment. > >"As proposed," the 29-page FDIC document begins, "the >regulation would require each nonmember bank to develop a >program designed to determine the identity of its customers; >determine its customers' source of funds; determine the normal >and expected transactions of its customers; monitor account >activity for transactions that are inconsistent with those normal and >expected transactions; and report anytransactions of its customers >that are determined to be suspicious, in accordance with the >FDIC's existing suspicious activity reporting regulation. By >requiring insured nonmember banks to determine the identity of >their customers, as well as to obtain knowledge regarding the >legitimate activities of their customers, the proposed regulation will >reduce the likelihood that insured nonmember banks will become >unwitting participants in illicit activities conducted or attempted by >their customers. It will also level the playing field between >institutions that already have adopted formal 'Know Your >Customer' programs and those that have not." > >Many banks across the country have already begun to implement >such programs, according to the FDIC. A quick search of the >Internet found many stories in press accounts of problems reported >at such banks. There have been a number of stories dealing with >banks requiring fingerprints to open accounts and to cash checks. >There are several lawsuits presently underway testing the right of >banks to make that requirement. > >McDonald has been fighting that issue, along with fingerprints on >driver's licenses for some time. He pointed out the many errors >found on credit reports and suggested that banks will soon make >similar errors when they begin creating profiles of their customers. > >The FDIC is selling the planned regulations by pointing out the >need for prevention of financial and other crime. > >"By identifying and, when appropriate, reporting such transactions >in accordance with existing suspicious activity reporting >requirements, financial institutions are protecting their integrity and >are assisting the efforts of the financial institution regulatory >agencies and law enforcement authorities to combat illicit activities >at such institutions," says the FDIC. > >The proposed regulation is, according to FDIC spokesperson Carol >A. Mesheske, authorized by current law. It comes from the >statutory authority granted the FDIC under section 8(s)(1) of the >Federal Deposit Insurance Act (12 U.S.C. 18189s)(1), as amended >by section 259(a)(2) of the Crime Control Act of 1990 (Pub. L. >101-647). > >The FDIC claims that the law requires them to develop regulations >to require banks to "establish and maintain internal procedures >reasonably designed to ensure and monitor compliance with the >Bank Secrecy Act. Effective 'Know Your Customer' programs >serve to facilitate compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act." > >The proposed regulations will mandate that all banks insured by >the FDIC must maintain an intelligence gathering department that >screens out customers and keeps an eye on existing customers. >Before you decide to move your money to a credit union, you >should know that the FDIC is not the only federal organization >making such plans. > >"Each of the other Federal bank supervisory agencies is proposing >to adopt substantially identical regulations covering state member >and national banks, federally-chartered branches and agencies of >foreign banks, savings associations, and credit unions. There also >have been discussions with the Federal regulators of non-bank >financial institutions, such as broker-dealers, concerning the need >to propose similar rules governing the activities of these non-bank >institutions," reports FDIC attorney Karn L. Main in the proposal. > >The purposes for the regulation are to protect the reputation of the >banks, to facilitate compliance with the law, to improve safe and >sound banking practices, and to protect banks from being used by >criminals as a vehicle for illegal activities. > >Current customers will be subjected to the new regulation in the >same way new customers will be scrutinized. The FDIC does not >wish to permit any loop hole which would leave any bank >customer unidentified or unsupervised. > >Each bank will create profiles. The first profile will determine the >amount of risk a potential customer might present by opening an >account. The system of profiling potential customers will be >different from one bank to the next, since the FDIC does not >provide a uniform program. The purpose of the profile is to >identify potential customers who might use a bank account for >funds obtained through criminal activity. > >The next profile will be one that is used by automated computers >to determine when suspicious activity is taking place in an account. >When activity in the account does not fit the profile, banks will >notify federal authorities so they can investigate. > >Banks are expected to identify their customers, determine normal >and expected transactions, monitor account transactions, and >determine if a particular transaction should be reported. > >The FDIC has sent copies of the proposal to all banks and is >asking for input. The questions asked by the FDIC in the proposal >do not ask whether the regulations should be put into place, only >how to implement them in the best way. None of the questions in >the proposal are directed to bank customers. > >The FDIC reassures banks that because the requirements will be >universally applied to all banks it will not hurt their business and >drive away customers. The proposal does not mention penalties for >non-compliance, nor is there any mention of regulations to provide >access to bank records by customers so errors can be found and >corrections made. > >"If 'Know Your Customer' programs are required, insured >nonmember banks can more easily collect the necessary >information because customers cannot turn readily to another >financial institution free of such requirements," stated the proposal. > >Comments from the public may be sent to Robert E. Feldman, >Executive Secretary, Attn: Comments/OES, Federal Deposit >Insurance Corporation, 550 17th Street N.W., Washington, DC >20429 or faxed to (202) 898-3838 or e-mailed to >comments at FDIC.gov. > >-------------------------- >GunsSaveLives Internet Discussion List > >This list is governed by an acceptable use >policy: http://www.wizard.net/~kc/policy.html >or available upon request. > >To unsubscribe send a message to >majordomo at listbox.com > >with the following line in the body: > >unsubscribe gsl > >GUNSSAVELIVES (GSL) IS A PRIVATE UNMODERATED LIST. >THE OWNER TAKES NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR CONTENT. ALL >RIGHTS RESERVED. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From hab at gamegirlz.com Mon Nov 30 13:23:49 1998 From: hab at gamegirlz.com (HaB) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 05:23:49 +0800 Subject: more FUD! Message-ID: <36630035.92E6B606@gamegirlz.com> Hello. First time poster. Been reading for awhile now and I feel like a goof for having to ask, but what does FUD stand for anyway? Thanks... HaB From emc at wire.insync.net Mon Nov 30 13:28:38 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 05:28:38 +0800 Subject: Sternbot on RSA Message-ID: <199811302026.OAA18677@wire.insync.net> Vin has now cloned his vigorous defense of the RSA patent to several Usenet newsgroups, posting his "summary" of the discussion. Sternlight now leaps in, to add his two cents worth. In talk.politics.crypto David Sternlight wrote: > I simply cannot believe the post by Cordian below. His argument seem to > be: Good morning, David. We've missed you on the Cypherpunks List. > 1. I am right and the court is wrong. No, David. Vin's argument is that since the patents were upheld in court, no knowlege of the specific algorithms or methods used to construct the patented entity pre-dated the work which led to the patent. In point of fact, such things do not automatically invalidate patents. Certainly the concept of trapdoor functions, their cryptographic utility, and that multiplication of primes was such a function, were known prior to the development of the RSA Public Key Cryptosystem. I vaguely recall that encipherment by modular exponentiation has also been published as an algorithm, albeit prior to the recognition that it had utility in constructing public key systems. > 2. I vaguely recall a paper that might have been prior art. Certainly the notion that the difficulty of factoring composites could be employed in the construction of cryptographically useful things was prior art. The description of encryption by modular exponentiation I recall would have been additional prior art. > 3. It is disingenuous to say there has been no invalidating prior art > even though the court has found the patent valid. There is a huge difference between "prior art" and "invalidating prior art" under patent law. Indeed, to invalidate the patent, it would have been necessary not only to find a description of the mathematical methods used in the construction of the RSA algorithm, but also a claim for the specific use for secure communication over insecure data links. > 4. Cylink's arguments must be right even though they lost in court. Some of Cylink's points were factually accurate. A system which permits the patenting of applied mathematics, which many engineers could have independently derived, is hardly likely to stun us with a brilliant interpretation of the various shades of meaning surrounding such claims and counterclaims. Again, losing in court does not equate to ones facts being in error, any more than it equates to the mathematics being patented being unknown prior to their incarnation in the patented application. > 5. RSA won because nobody could afford to litigate against them, even > though Cylink did. RSADSI's aggressive litigation posture discouraged people from ignoring their patent, and given that the patent could be licensed for much less than a lengthy court fight, kept litigation to a minimum. Cylink was pretty much the sole exception to this, and that was a legal fight internal to PKP. > 6. Anyone can patent anything and nobody could afford to oppose them > (N.B. Presumably not IBM, not DEC, not DuPont, ..oh well, you get the > idea) Yes, David. Practically anything can be patented. The power of patents is in defending them, not in applying for them, or in receiving them. > 7. Rich, smart companies with big legal departments license bogus > patents rather than litigating. Well, that depends on how you define bogus. I consider patenting applied math to be bogus. Your mileage may vary. > 8. Someone who opposes me is a troll. Someone who responds to a one line comment about the mathematical underpinnings of RSA being previously known, with several multipage essays whose central thesis is that such a claim cannot possible be true, because the patent would have been invalidated by the courts, is a troll who either understands nothing about how patents work, or is blowing a foghorn on behalf of the patent holder. > 9. If someone takes the time to oppose me, someone must be funding him. Vin has already outed himself as someone who has done work for RSADSI. He has vociferously defended various key recovery schemes implemented in their products against critics. This, combined with his rabid insistance that the RSA patent is something novel and unique, does equate to what some of us might describe as a "vested interest" in the matter, directly funded or not. > 10. The patent office never refuses patents on "method and apparatus" > except in the case of perpetual motion machines. Patent examiners generally rely only upon the material presented with the patent application when reviewing it, and expect people to do their own searches, and correctly cite related patents. Litigation is generally the means by which patents are challenged, not by the patent office refusing them, except in extrordinary circumstances, perpetual motion machines being one well-known example. > 11. Security Dynamics is paying for those who oppose me. I merely asked if Vin intended to bill them for the time he spent writing his rants. A rhetorical question. > 12. Such opposition is "a tirade". Suggesting that I would have to retire my nym after criticizing the RSA patent and taking several pages to say a paragraph of material certainly qualifies as a tirade in my book, especially when combined with a lot of irrelevent innuendo unrelated to the topic being discussed. > 13. No corporations are buying products with GAK, key recovery, etc. > (N.B. in That is what "no corporate demand" means). To an economist, perhaps. It would be more accurate to say that demand as a function of whether such features are included is a pretty flat function. > 14. Someone who opposes stronger escrow/GAK/key recovery than RSA is > offering must be suspect. Your point here eludes me. > I could go on ... And you usually do, and on, and on, and on... > but it seems to me, knowing nothing about the parties involved and > having no views on their personalities, that on the basis of the post > below Cordian is uh, um, er, a few clauses short of a syllogism. I simply believe that patents on applied math are inappropriate. Given that they are allowed, it seems silly to cite the fact that the courts uphold them as evidence for anything, particularly claims that they are new, novel, and non-obvious. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From sanford at lsil.com Mon Nov 30 14:30:50 1998 From: sanford at lsil.com (Sanford Whitehouse) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 06:30:50 +0800 Subject: more FUD! In-Reply-To: <36630035.92E6B606@gamegirlz.com> Message-ID: > Hello. > > First time poster. Been reading for awhile now and I feel like a goof > for having to ask, but what does FUD stand for anyway? > > Thanks... > > HaB > > Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. From mparson at ocx.net Mon Nov 30 14:52:37 1998 From: mparson at ocx.net (Michael Parson) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 06:52:37 +0800 Subject: more FUD! In-Reply-To: <36630035.92E6B606@gamegirlz.com> Message-ID: <199811302158.PAA10066@fargo.ocx.net> In message <36630035.92E6B606 at gamegirlz.com>, you write: > Hello. > > First time poster. Been reading for awhile now and I feel like a goof > for having to ask, but what does FUD stand for anyway? Fear Uncertainty Doubt -- Michael Parson Sr. Systems Administrator IXC Internet Services From mdpopescu at geocities.com Mon Nov 30 15:29:15 1998 From: mdpopescu at geocities.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:29:15 +0800 Subject: more FUD! Message-ID: <001701be1cb2$85869a20$LocalHost@DEVELOP> -----Original Message----- From: HaB To: Date: mar�i, 01 decembrie 1998 01:46 Subject: Re: more FUD! >First time poster. Been reading for awhile now and I feel like a goof >for having to ask, but what does FUD stand for anyway? Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Alleged technique of large companies to make people think twice before buying products from lesser companies by casting doubt over the reliability of the product and its creator. Thinking twice is known to be a Bad Thing. Mark From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 30 16:35:08 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:35:08 +0800 Subject: Old Hat 2 Message-ID: <199811302325.AAA15856@replay.com> Here's what is likely going on right now, though its availability to LE is questionable: NSA probably maintains surveillance of all or nearly all encrypted remailers. They log and archive the content of all traffic. First arrivals of messages in the remailer "cloud" provide source identification in many cases, so a database is gradually built of all the originating email addresses and IP addresses that have ever sent messages to a remailer. The same is true for the messages exiting the cloud, although many of those go to public lists or newsgroups. Sometimes, perhaps even often, the remailer cloud is so little utilised that one-hop or even multi-hop chained remalings are easily identified as to source and final destination. All goes into the database. Spook-style stylometers develop profiles of the users. Over time, more and more of the unidentified profiles become linked to known users. All it takes is one slip, or one piece of bad luck of low traffic levels. Linkage is also done on a probabilistic basis, many-to-many. Little human intervention is used except to develop and tune the correlation mechanisms. Filters aimed at content that might help correlate messages with senders is more important to the spooks than Echelon Dictionary filters. The priorities in getting a handle on something like the remailer cloud are quite different than the priorities in scanning ordinary traffic for content. Ultimately, though, the regular content filters come into play, but in this ongoing exercise of cat and mouse, the bulk of the effort is directed at developing the combination of surveillance and intelligent processing that can provide the basis for identifying, at least to some knowable probability, the sources and destinations of given remailer messages. Source and destination correlation can benefit greatly from knowledge of conventional email correspondent relationships. Most nonprofessional-spook people who send encrypted remailed email to a non-public destination are also likely to correspond with that destination in the clear. Archival logging of traffic is like a time machine - even if one ceases conventional correspondence with another, any past traffic can reveal the correspondence relationship. Mathematical correlation, given a very large amount of raw data consisting of timestamped message events, can reveal quite a lot about likely correspondence relationships. Even given a remailer network full of chaff, with reordered message pools and such, just running correlations on the end point data - who sent and when, and who received and when - can develop likely correspondent pairs. Be assured that the manipulation of such data relies heavily on probablistic clustering supported by database mechanisms not seen much in business environments. Instead of having firm relationships within an order or two of magnitude of the terminal node population, I would want something that allows having very large numbers of fuzzy relationships numbering many orders of magnitude greater than the node population. Nodes A, B, C and D send and receive remailer traffic. Everything that A has ever sent is clearly related to A, but each item can and likely would also have a probabilistic relationship to B, C, and D. The probability assignments would be updated as later analysis and later data more clearly identify who may have received which messages. Content comes into play here, too. At any time it is possible to query the database for the likely correspondents of A, and the likely messages A may have sent to B, C, or D, and get a result ordered by confidence. Similarly, it is possible to query for the likely sender(s) and recipient(s) of a given message. Occasionally, data may be firmed up - meaning achieving higher confidence levels of the relationships - by access to someone's PC, by whatever means, by stylometry, by specific content of public messages, and by fortuitous traffic analysis successes owing to the paucity of remailer traffic. It's also certain that to provide realistic cases that can be fully revealed to measure the efficacy of the various algorithms and methods involved, spooks use the remailer network themselves. That's the only way they can be sure to have any traffic that can be fully analyzed as a yardstick for the guessing games played by their software. A few rules of thumb result from even cursory examination of the likely environment: 1. Do not send clear messages through the remailers except to public lists and newsgroups. Sending clear messages to private correspondents provides the watchers with rich style and content material linked to a correspondent. It is usually easy then to link it back to you, and a firm correspondent pair is then established in their database. 2. Do not switch between clear and encrypted, remailed communication with the same correspondent. If your correspondent relationships are mapped via clear, conventional mail, those mappings can be applied to your encrypted, remailed mail to greatly narrow down the possible recipients, and quite likely combine with traffic analysis to correlate your outgoing message with one arriving at your correspondent. If the only communications you have with your deep contacts is by encrypted, chained remailer, only fortuitous or statistical correlation analysis or access to your or your correspondent's host machines will tie the two of you together. 3. Do not send traffic to significant correspondents when traffic levels are likely to be low. Good luck at guessing this. Probably the best way to get a handle on traffic levels is to run a remailer yourself. 4. Send lots of chaff. Chain some messages through the remailer cloud every day. If you have time and the ability, write and release something that will allow large numbers of people to send lots of chaff. 5. Ultimately, the only way the remailers will provide what might be described as Pretty Good Security will be when we have software that maintains a regular or random rate of messages to and from the remailer cloud, a stream into which the meaningful messages can be inserted with no visible change in traffic. Until then, the best we can do is try to keep traffic levels up, and to send and receive frequently enough to frustrate end-to-end traffic analysis. 6. Don't send anything that can have grave consequences. 7. Take names. Always take names. Some day... FUDBusterMonger It Ain't FUD til I SAY it's FUD! From petro at playboy.com Mon Nov 30 17:25:53 1998 From: petro at playboy.com (Petro) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:25:53 +0800 Subject: y2k/gary north delusions In-Reply-To: <19981130131031.26101.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:10 AM -0500 11/30/98, Martinus Luther wrote: >*Real* rural life will continue of course, because people have the land >and the skills to use it. And becauwse they tend to have stores. I don't >know if it would be a very prosperous rural life for most people in the >"developed" parts of the world though. I wonder what the sudden >withdrawl of pesticides, herbicides, fertiliser, & fuel to fly the >crop-sprayer would do to yields on the average American industrial farm? >If the year 2000 is half as bad as North says it will be there will be a >massive change in the balance of economic power away from North America >and towards the so-called Third World. So true. All these would be rambo's with their Gas Guzzling SUV's, 4WD Pickup Trucks, and 2 days supply of fuel stored up, and 4 months supply of food right above their belt. Hell, half of 'em will die from heart attacks trying to get out of the city. >It looks like Gary North isn't really interested in the year 2000 >problem. What he is interested in seems to be guns. He's latched on to >this issue because it allows him to think and write more about guns. >And, like so many other gunwankers he seems to get off fantasising about >the total collapse of civil society because that way he gets to feel >good about his guns. All this obession with death and destruction is a >bit strange in someone rumoured to be a Christian. Nah, a lot of christians are obsessed with Death & Destuction. >Hey, maybe North is right about the USA. Maybe all the programmers will >leave town to starve in the country. Maybe the systems will never get Not all. Most couldn't FIND the country. >fixed. Maybe heavily armed gangs will take over the cities. Maybe you >never will rebuild your civilization. I hope not. But if it does turn >out that way we'll send you some foreign aid. Crap, if we go down, you will to. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather na�ve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro at playboy.com From jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Mon Nov 30 17:28:22 1998 From: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu (Ken Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:28:22 +0800 Subject: somebody clue this person in please! Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- i'm laughing too damned hard to do it myself. Regards, Ken Williams Packet Storm Security http://www.Genocide2600.com/~tattooman/ E.H.A.P. Head of Operations http://www.ehap.org/ ehap at ehap.org NC State CS Dept http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/ jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu PGP DSS/DH/RSA Keys http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jkwilli2/pgpkey/ _____________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Received: from cc02mh.unity.ncsu.edu (cc02mh.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.144]) by cc01mh.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00863 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:04:29 -0500 (EST) From: ILovToHack at aol.com Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by cc02mh.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05341 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ILovToHack at aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id QVOZa08724 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:01:47 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:01:47 EST To: jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: more FUD! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Casablanca - Windows sub 224 In a message dated 11/30/98 10:15:50 AM EST, jkwilli2 at unity.ncsu.edu writes: > Get Your Private, Free, Encrypted Email at http://www.nsa.gov I looked around there site and couldnt find anything about geting a e-mail could you please be more specific. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNmM9eZDw1ZsNz1IXAQGp2ggAyiZR2yTdawgv5Dcrh4dOxpK1RCZD3+rL YgQEf9JlvhG43KpK5ZXJNwG46gLZ/G1utg1Ux3DfsotBgce8Y5xO1GdXm+SmSw3S fXlPSeeY93B+NQ5xaRHyLmMzV/YLMspNYKPZYuA+AI5XIWyL2fcWR8TcOpISWQ5r UQphc7KBhZfDIObJ5nJzkv8gIDHn4qvlBqhNcjukw3GvJ9Edm8vS/P3Jlm9wiuXW +kXWEVTX21xdBnG3iYdnQOyG69cmSQWKVN64Hetbi1tf0um2BJXQj82VOJtwbTp/ KFF650etU6OhrCnhV/Z/LYYNBYbG5r4/en2TbPyumIWd1DgujU8oNg== =ed5P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ichudov at Algebra.COM Mon Nov 30 18:05:29 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:05:29 +0800 Subject: Old Hat 2 In-Reply-To: <199811302325.AAA15856@replay.com> Message-ID: <199812010116.TAA16536@manifold.algebra.com> Anonymous wrote: > > > Here's what is likely going on right now, though its > availability to LE is questionable: > > NSA probably maintains surveillance of all or nearly all > encrypted remailers. They log and archive the content of > all traffic. First arrivals of messages in the remailer > "cloud" provide source identification in many cases, so Well... I just realized that the huge amount of spam that is being relayed through remailers, might actually increase remailer security for all of us. I understand that the remailer operators probably have bandwidth limitations, but at least some spam is good. Please do not fight spam as much as you do. igor > a database is gradually built of all the originating > email addresses and IP addresses that have ever sent > messages to a remailer. The same is true for the messages > exiting the cloud, although many of those go to public > lists or newsgroups. Sometimes, perhaps even often, the > remailer cloud is so little utilised that one-hop or even > multi-hop chained remalings are easily identified as to > source and final destination. All goes into the database. > Spook-style stylometers develop profiles of the users. > Over time, more and more of the unidentified profiles > become linked to known users. All it takes is one slip, > or one piece of bad luck of low traffic levels. Linkage > is also done on a probabilistic basis, many-to-many. > Little human intervention is used except to develop and > tune the correlation mechanisms. Filters aimed at content > that might help correlate messages with senders is more > important to the spooks than Echelon Dictionary filters. > The priorities in getting a handle on something like the > remailer cloud are quite different than the priorities in > scanning ordinary traffic for content. Ultimately, though, > the regular content filters come into play, but in this > ongoing exercise of cat and mouse, the bulk of the effort > is directed at developing the combination of surveillance > and intelligent processing that can provide the basis for > identifying, at least to some knowable probability, the > sources and destinations of given remailer messages. > > Source and destination correlation can benefit greatly > from knowledge of conventional email correspondent > relationships. Most nonprofessional-spook people who send > encrypted remailed email to a non-public destination are > also likely to correspond with that destination in the > clear. Archival logging of traffic is like a time machine - > even if one ceases conventional correspondence with > another, any past traffic can reveal the correspondence > relationship. > > Mathematical correlation, given a very large amount of raw > data consisting of timestamped message events, can reveal > quite a lot about likely correspondence relationships. > Even given a remailer network full of chaff, with reordered > message pools and such, just running correlations on the > end point data - who sent and when, and who received and when > - can develop likely correspondent pairs. > > Be assured that the manipulation of such data relies heavily > on probablistic clustering supported by database mechanisms > not seen much in business environments. Instead of having > firm relationships within an order or two of magnitude of > the terminal node population, I would want something that > allows having very large numbers of fuzzy relationships > numbering many orders of magnitude greater than the node > population. Nodes A, B, C and D send and receive remailer > traffic. Everything that A has ever sent is clearly > related to A, but each item can and likely would also > have a probabilistic relationship to B, C, and D. The > probability assignments would be updated as later analysis > and later data more clearly identify who may have received > which messages. Content comes into play here, too. > > At any time it is possible to query the database for > the likely correspondents of A, and the likely messages > A may have sent to B, C, or D, and get a result ordered > by confidence. Similarly, it is possible to query for > the likely sender(s) and recipient(s) of a given message. > Occasionally, data may be firmed up - meaning achieving > higher confidence levels of the relationships - by access > to someone's PC, by whatever means, by stylometry, by > specific content of public messages, and by fortuitous > traffic analysis successes owing to the paucity of remailer > traffic. > > It's also certain that to provide realistic cases that can > be fully revealed to measure the efficacy of the various > algorithms and methods involved, spooks use the remailer > network themselves. That's the only way they can be sure > to have any traffic that can be fully analyzed as a yardstick > for the guessing games played by their software. > > A few rules of thumb result from even cursory examination > of the likely environment: > > 1. Do not send clear messages through the remailers > except to public lists and newsgroups. Sending clear > messages to private correspondents provides the > watchers with rich style and content material linked > to a correspondent. It is usually easy then to link > it back to you, and a firm correspondent pair is then > established in their database. > > 2. Do not switch between clear and encrypted, remailed > communication with the same correspondent. If your > correspondent relationships are mapped via clear, > conventional mail, those mappings can be applied to > your encrypted, remailed mail to greatly narrow > down the possible recipients, and quite likely > combine with traffic analysis to correlate your > outgoing message with one arriving at your > correspondent. If the only communications you have > with your deep contacts is by encrypted, chained > remailer, only fortuitous or statistical correlation > analysis or access to your or your correspondent's > host machines will tie the two of you together. > > 3. Do not send traffic to significant correspondents > when traffic levels are likely to be low. Good > luck at guessing this. Probably the best way to > get a handle on traffic levels is to run a remailer > yourself. > > 4. Send lots of chaff. Chain some messages through the > remailer cloud every day. If you have time and the > ability, write and release something that will allow > large numbers of people to send lots of chaff. > > 5. Ultimately, the only way the remailers will provide > what might be described as Pretty Good Security will > be when we have software that maintains a regular > or random rate of messages to and from the remailer > cloud, a stream into which the meaningful messages > can be inserted with no visible change in traffic. > Until then, the best we can do is try to keep traffic > levels up, and to send and receive frequently enough > to frustrate end-to-end traffic analysis. > > 6. Don't send anything that can have grave consequences. > > 7. Take names. Always take names. Some day... > > FUDBusterMonger > > It Ain't FUD til I SAY it's FUD! > - Igor. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Mon Nov 30 18:34:36 1998 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:34:36 +0800 Subject: gunnuts and Y2K In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199812010154.TAA17022@manifold.algebra.com> > At 8:10 AM -0500 11/30/98, Martinus Luther wrote: > >It looks like Gary North isn't really interested in the year 2000 > >problem. What he is interested in seems to be guns. He's latched on to > >this issue because it allows him to think and write more about guns. > >And, like so many other gunwankers he seems to get off fantasising about > >the total collapse of civil society because that way he gets to feel > >good about his guns. All this obession with death and destruction is a > >bit strange in someone rumoured to be a Christian. Well... I think that dismissing someone's thoughts on the basis of psychobabble is never a good idea. Gary North's psyche may or may not be fucked up, but even fucked up people oftentimes come up with good ideas. On the other hand, the above is a good observation that I happen to agree with. If you browse misc.survivalism (a useful newsgroup) you would see a lot of gunnuts who can't have a single good idea of their own, except for inventing scenarios where their guns may become useful. I am not suggesting that all gunnuts are stupid, or that it is imprudent to own firearms to prepare for various contingencies, not at all. I am even very much pro-second amendment. But objectively, there is a large category of people who are bored with their current lifestyle and gleefully expect a "total breakdown" of the society so that they could shoot live man sized targets instead of boring paper targets. They are likely to be disappointed by Y2K, or so I expect. (again, my expectation that social breakdown is not likely to happen does not preclude me from reasonable preparations) The interesting question that arises out of all this, is trying to predict what these people's impact on the actual Y2K events would be. Would there be a big number of unprovoked shootings at groups of blacks who happen to walk down on a wrong street? How should people behave in order not to get shot by mistake? Would those people contribute to any unrest that could happen? Which areas are best avoided? igor From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 30 18:34:50 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:34:50 +0800 Subject: student project suggestion; PGP trap and trace Message-ID: <199812010207.DAA22493@replay.com> Given: if the adversary captures your PGP keyring, he will know your contacts. Your secure contacts. Therefore: it would be mighty nice if access to your keyring's address list required a passphrase (which perhaps was valid for several hours, it being a pain to retype a decent passphrase). You will note that the PGP plugins for Eudora allow any buffoon with access to your machine to discover who you talk to securely. --Laced aliens fried my pugs From austin at zks.net Mon Nov 30 18:41:51 1998 From: austin at zks.net (Austin Hill) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:41:51 +0800 Subject: Freedom & AnonymousIP network Message-ID: <000b01be1cd0$6ce561e0$1901a8c0@austin.zks.net> This may be of interest to members of this list or people that you may all know. If you have any questions, or know of ISPs who support privacy on the Internet, please forward this to their attention. Thanks. -Austin --------------------------------------------------------------- Freedom Partnership Program: Value-Added Service For ISPs Zero-Knowledge Systems is currently in seeking ISPs to join as "Founding Members" in the Freedom Network. Freedom is revolutionary software that provides the first complete privacy solution to Internet users, including email, web-browsing, chat, telnet and Usenet. By allowing users to create and manage multiple authenticated identities and using full-strength cryptography, Internet users can also block SPAM and manage their person information. See http://www.zks.net for full details. Being a member of the Freedom Network will allow an ISP to differentiate itself from the competition while fighting for on-line privacy. The Freedom Partnership Program has been designed to be revenue generating and cost reducing for ISPs. Freedom software is provided free of charge to all ISPs. Internal beta-testing of the Freedom network will begin in mid-December, 1998 and the "Founding Members" of the Freedom Network should be prepared to begin working with our technical staff at that time. Beta testing should last 4-8 weeks. The Freedom server software runs on a Linux or Solaris operating system and needs to run on a dedicated machine. Server participants should be able to contribute a T-1 during the beta testing period. Members will also be entitled to proceeds from the revenue sharing program (after the beta testing period). The revenue sharing program is designed to provide ISPs with 110% - 130% of bandwidth costs. Participation has its advantages. Founding Member ISPs will receive "Preferred Member" status on our web-site and software. When users of the Freedom client do a search for an ISP by telephone area code, Founding Members will be the recommended ISP in a given geographical area. All Founding Members will be listed in relevant press releases made by Zero-Knowledge Systems. Founding Members will also be guaranteed to earn 10% on all click-thru sales (web-link program) for the next two years. Participating ISPs will also get "Prominent Placement" - have their company name/logo displayed on a high-traffic area of our web-site. Distinctive buttons and banners will be given to all founding members receive to put on their web-site. Initially, the Freedom Network will be comprised of 15 Founding Member ISPs which will be located around the world. We plan to have an ISP in each of the following areas: Canada(3) - east coast, central, west coast; U.S.A.(7) - northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest, west coast, silicon valley, Midwest; United Kingdom(1); Holland(1); Germany(1); Australia(1); and, the Caribbean(1). If you are interested in becoming a "Founding Member" or simply joining the Freedom Network or know of an ISP that would be interested, please contact Greg Adelstein, Director of Business Development, Zero-Knowledge Systems, greg at zks.net or 514-286-2636. -------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________________ Austin Hill Zero-Knowledge Systems Inc. President Montreal, Quebec Phone: 514.286.2636 Ext. 226 Fax: 514.286.2755 E-mail: austin at zks.net http://www.zks.net Zero Knowledge Systems Inc. - Nothing Personal PGP Fingerprints 2.6.3i = 3F 42 A2 0D AF 78 20 ED A2 BB AD BE 8B 40 5E 64 5.5.3i = 77 1E 62 21 B3 F0 EB C0 AA 6C 65 30 56 CA BA C4 94 26 EC 00 keys available at http://www.nai.com/products/security/public_keys/pub_key_default.asp _________________________________________________________________________ From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 30 18:41:54 1998 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:41:54 +0800 Subject: NYT (online only?) article on DigiCash Chapt. 11 Message-ID: ...Wherein I get quoted in the NYT, for the first time in my life, using "bummed out". Oh, well. At least they spelled my name right... :-). Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:35:32 -0500 To: Digital Bearer Settlement List From: Robert Hettinga Subject: Electronic Cash for the Net Fails to Catch On Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Subscribe: X-Web-Archive: http://www.philodox.com/dbs-archive/ --- begin forwarded text Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:28:03 -0500 From: "Robert A. Hettinga" Reply-To: rah at philodox.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rah at shipwright.com Subject: Electronic Cash for the Net Fails to Catch On http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/11/cyber/articles/28cash.html November 28, 1998 Electronic Cash for the Net Fails to Catch On By PETER WAYNER here are two conflicting epigrams that rule the computer industry. The first is that the pioneer gets all of the gold, and the second is that the pioneer gets all of the arrows in the back. Several recent high-profile failures in the electronic payment industry suggest that efforts to develop versions of electronic cash for the Internet are so far reaping more arrows than riches. Christine M. Thompson The most recent signal came as Digicash, a closely watched electronic payment company based in Palo Alto, Calif., filed for bankruptcy protection. The company was known for a collection of tools that made it possible for people to spend small amounts of money over the Internet using what is known as a digital wallet, software that handles transactions in a manner similar to cash. One advantage of the Digicash system is that, unlike credit cards, it allowed consumers to make purchases anonymously. While several major banks expressed interest in the Digicash system and a few actually began offering accounts, the company was unable to generate enough mass interest among merchants or consumers. Consumers were reluctant to use Digicash because there weren't many merchants who accepted it, and merchants didn't sign up to participate because consumers weren't demanding it as a payment option. Other companies that have tried to develop digital cash systems haven't fared much better. Last August, another pioneer, First Virtual, shut down its system for processing electronic cash transactions and began to focus on a new business, interactive messaging, according to a company spokeswoman, Cindy Alvarez. Another company, CyberCash, still offers a system called CyberCoin, but most of the company's revenue comes from processing credit card transactions. Industry observers suggest that one reason electronic payment systems haven't taken off is that consumers have become more comfortable using credit cards to make purchases online. Bill Curry, a spokesman for Amazon.com, said credit cards are used for "the overwhelming majority" of transactions on the company's site. "I think the reason is that we do have an encrypted secure server, and we guarantee the transaction. If there are unauthorized charges on your account as a result of shopping at Amazon.com, we'll pay the $50 that's not covered by your credit-card issuers." Bill Trevor, director of customer service at CDNow, said most of CDNow's customers enter their credit-card numbers on the site. "Our experience is showing that in the month of October, roughly four fifths of our customers felt secure enough to put their credit card in our online form. Almost all of the rest are checks or money order. There are a couple of percentage points for people who call us, fax us or e-mail their credit-card number, but it's less than 3 percent." Companies that process credit card transactions have found more success than the wallet-based businesses. CDNow allows customers to send a separate e-mail message with the credit card number encrypted with PGP, a significantly higher-grade of encryption than is normally used to protect most browser-based transactions. Companies that process credit card transactions for e-commerce Web sites have found more success than the wallet-based businesses, like Digicash. Keith Miller is an executive vice president of Ibill, a company that processes credit card transactions for Web merchants. "We looked into that whole thing when we started a couple of years ago," he said, referring to companies that were building separate software packages for processing payments. "Back then, our biggest competitors were the wallet companies. We went after the market saying, why do we need to reinvent something when we have something that works and is simple, easy and quick?" In the end, Ibill chose to make it simple for people to buy something online by typing a credit card number into a browser. The browser uses a security method known as SSL (Secure Socket Layers) to protect the data. This doesn't offer the same protection as the carefully designed wallets, but has so far been acceptable to consumers. This approach has become so popular that one of the wallet pioneers, Cybercash, has developed a similar system and now derives more profits from simple SSL-based credit card transactions than through the wallets the company continues to develop. What remains to be seen is whether digital cash systems will ever find a market. Paul Kocher, an expert on cryptography who has analyzed many digital payment mechanisms, said it would take the support of a major player for an electronic cash system to be successful. "If someone like Visa or IBM threw their weight behind a system and got a lot of backers, it might take off. I don't see how a small company like Digicash could ever get a system deployed and working." Digicash's plans for the future are uncertain, in part because the company must pay off past debts by holding what amounts to an auction of its technology. But the fact that some companies are interested in Digicash's patents indicates that there may still be hope for some sort of electronic payment system. In particular, industry observers say that these systems' ability to allow consumers to make purchases online anonymously may yet prove valuable. Related Articles Got a Dime? Citibank and Chase End Test of Electronic Cash (November 11, 1998) Code Br eaker Cracks Smart Cards' Digital Safe (June 22, 1998) Scott Loftesness, the interim chief executive of Digicash, said the company is exploring many different options and has already received one offer for some of its patents. One of the patents provides an easy way for someone to sign or authorize a document without reading it, a process that is often called a "blind signature." This is the foundation for the anonymity Digicash offers its customers and may also have a variety of other untapped applications. Robert Hettinga, a digital cash consultant and one of the organizers of the Financial Cryptography conference held annually in Anguilla, said, "I would like to try to get a syndicate together to buy the [blind signature] patent. We would hold it and license it in a way that everyone could use it. I would be really bummed out if they took that patent and locked it away for another eight years." Others are more cynical about the possibility that any micropayment model will ever become dominant. William Powar, a former Visa executive who is now a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley, said one problem with digital wallet systems is that they are designed for small one-time purchases. "There's no market where pay per use is significant," he said. "Look at the cable model." Powar points out that while newspapers, magazines and cable operators offer one-time consumption options through newsstands or special cable subscriptions, the bulk of their revenue comes from subscriptions and advertising. This suggests to him that micropayment systems won't be a crucial part of the future of the Internet, which would diminish the need for digital cash systems. In the near future, the electronic digital transaction industry is focusing on another goal: processing bills for utilities, credit card companies, telephone companies and others who normally bill customers via postal mail. Several new ventures, like Ibill, as well as established companies like Netscape Communications Corp., are working on technologies to allow consumers to pay their bills online. Netscape's system, called BillerXpert, will let consumers pay bills over the Web using, among other options, the payment mechanism designed by CyberCash. The bill presentment industry hopes to save money on postage while also providing additional services, like personalized content. Related Sites These sites are not part of The New York Times on the Web, and The Times has no control over their content or availability. Digicash CyberCash Amazon.com CDNow Ibill Netscape Communications Corp. Peter Wayner at pwayner at nytimes.com welcomes your comments and suggestions. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 30 19:27:36 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:27:36 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199812010220.DAA25133@replay.com> Subject: naughty bits At 12:25 AM 12/1/98 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >NSA probably maintains surveillance of all or nearly all >encrypted remailers. They log and archive the content of Well shit yes, I pay enough taxes, you bet they do, or I'm not getting my fucking dollars worth. I only send via anon when I care only about the honest readers' opinion. Like I'd send dangerous shit over the IP. May as well fax it plaintext to the Ukraine. Bwah hah hah. If you were really going to pull a prank, you'd create a one-shot yahoo/hotmail/etc account from a cafe then wipe that platter clean (both FAT and lean). ---If your Correlators have pegged me, well, hello. Nice game. From emc at wire.insync.net Mon Nov 30 19:45:59 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:45:59 +0800 Subject: SternFUD on RSA Message-ID: <199812010235.UAA19311@wire.insync.net> :) David Sternlight opines: > I am not on the Cypherpunks list. Given the tone of some posters I > don't' see that as a useful list. I wonder who won the pool on how long you would last before departing in a tiff. :) But I digress. > You already made this argument. It could have been (and perhaps was) > made in court. Despite that the patent was upheld. That is "I am > right and the court is wrong." I think that regulations which permit applied math to be patented are counterproductive, as do many other countries. Given that such regulations are in place in the United States, one would expect them to be upheld by the courts. Whether any of this is "wrong" in some abstract sense is a religious debate, in which I am uninterested. Let us examine the two statements: I. Certainly, given what was known at the time widespread data communications created a commercial demand for secure communication over insecure lines, a person setting out to create a software solution to the problem, knowing what was then known about cryptography, trapdoor functions, and other techniques, would almost certainly have employed modular exponentiation or discrete logs to solve the problem. If RSA hadn't been patented at the time it was, it most certainly would have been independently discovered by multiple individuals and widely employed, without the present licensing restrictions. Prior published works on cryptographic trapdoor functions involving the factoring of composites and possibly even encryption by modular exponentiation existed long before the RSA patent. II. Obvious prior art sufficient [in the current regulatory environment surrounding patents in the US] to invalidate the RSA patent in court has never been published. Now, given that these two statements are not opposites of each other, one is not going to refute the first by stating the second, no matter how big a bullhorn one employs. >> There is a huge difference between "prior art" and "invalidating prior >> art" under patent law. Indeed, to invalidate the patent, it would >> have been necessary not only to find a description of the mathematical >> methods used in the construction of the RSA algorithm, but also a >> claim for the specific use for secure communication over insecure data >> links. > It seems to me you are agreeing with my comment here. I have only argued that obvious prior art exists. I have also stated that I would favor a regulatory climate in which such obvious prior art would preclude a patent being granted. I have never stated that we currently live in such a regulatory climate. In fact, we do not. > Pretty far-fetched response. They tried to overturn the patent on > grounds of prior art. They failed. End of story. Many words, like "prior art," have specific legal meanings which differ from their common English usage. Kind of like economists arguing that there is no "demand" for food by poor people, because they have no money with which to purchase it. I use the term "obvious prior art" to mean prior publication of the essential methods and techniques with which a technically skilled person, given the same problem to solve, would arrive at the same or a similar solution. Put two graduate students at opposite ends of a wire, with the world's prior-to-1977 writings on cryptography, trapdoor functions, the intractablity of factoring the product of primes, and the modular exponentiation problem. I suspect the RSA Public Key Cryptosystem would not be long in emerging, even if one employed particularly dense graduate students. That is what I mean when I use the term "obvious prior art." > Again, it seems you've conceded my point here. What part of "nobody" > don't you understand? I was proceeding upon the assumption that the enumerated "points" you claimed I was making were ones with which you disagreed. If that is not the case, I am prepared to declare early victory. "Nobody could afford to litigate [against RSADSI]" is misleading, as even the wealthy don't employ the expensive option, when a cheap one is available. Besides, I have never contested that the current regulatory climate supports the patenting of things like RSA even in the presence of prior publication of the essential mathematical elements. >>> 6. Anyone can patent anything and nobody could afford to oppose them >>> (N.B. Presumably not IBM, not DEC, not DuPont, ..oh well, you get the >>> idea) >> Yes, David. Practically anything can be patented. The power of >> patents is in defending them, not in applying for them, or in >> receiving them. > Again you concede my point by ignoring the operative clause. What > part of "nobody" don't you understand? There were plenty of companies who had the financial power to squash RSADSI like a grape, and probably change the regulatory climate as well. There was no incentive for them to do so, and they probably have applied mathematical patents of their own which they are fond of. Had RSADSI sat on the patent, and refused to license it to others, both they and their patent would probably have had a very short life span. >>> 7. Rich, smart companies with big legal departments license bogus >>> patents rather than litigating. >> Well, that depends on how you define bogus. I consider patenting >> applied math to be bogus. Your mileage may vary. > RSA didn't patent applied math. They patented processes which may > use, or be described in part with applied math. Yes, the "method and apparatus" transformation. > The facts are that rich, smart companies litigate patents all the > time so your contention is false on its face. They rarely litigate patents where the cost to litigate is enormous, the technology may be cheaply licensed, and the chances of success, or of even trying to explain the topic to the average layman, are minimal. >> Someone who responds to a one line comment about the mathematical >> underpinnings of RSA being previously known, with several multipage >> essays whose central thesis is that such a claim cannot possible be >> true, because the patent would have been invalidated by the courts, is >> a troll who either understands nothing about how patents work, or is >> blowing a foghorn on behalf of the patent holder. > Another guilty plea. Well, I suppose Vin could just be a bored essayist in need of something to practice on. (Snicker) >>> 9. If someone takes the time to oppose me, someone must be funding him. >> Vin has already outed himself as someone who has done work for >> RSADSI. He has vociferously defended various key recovery schemes >> implemented in their products against critics. This, combined with >> his rabid insistance that the RSA patent is something novel and >> unique, does equate to what some of us might describe as a "vested >> interest" in the matter, directly funded or not. > Another failed refutation. Your words were unequivocal. I think you are having some difficulty separating out the sarcasm here. Besides, the suggestion that Vin has a vested interest in defending the RSA patent hardly translates into an assertion that everyone who disagrees with me on some subject is someone's paid agent. Abstraction from the specific to the general is not an accepted tool of inference. You, for instance, are probably quibbling for entirely different reasons. > I think the problem with most of your post is that you have taken the > odd exception or the odd passing issue and tried to make them out to > be the general case; in short your post was highly overblown as well > as redolent of personal attack. Had you discussed the issue more > temperately in terms of your factual claims it might have been more > useful. That sometimes happens when one party "summarizes" a flame war, and posts it elsewhere. Deal. >>> 10. The patent office never refuses patents on "method and apparatus" >>> except in the case of perpetual motion machines. >> Patent examiners generally rely only upon the material presented with >> the patent application when reviewing it, and expect people to do >> their own searches, and correctly cite related patents. Litigation is >> generally the means by which patents are challenged, not by the patent >> office refusing them, except in extrordinary circumstances, perpetual >> motion machines being one well-known example. > See above. You were unequivocal. "Practically anything" is not unequivocal, and is a correct description of the current patent review climate. > There may be cases of the sort you refer to, but it is not a general > argument which can then be applied to the case of the RSA patent. You > have repeatedly make the logical error of claiming that a specific > proved a general, and then applying the claimed general to a different > specific. Vin alleged that RSA being granted a patent proffered compelling evidence of the unique worth of the thing being patented. It is correct to apply general comments about the patent-granting climate to this specific case. For a better example of confusing generals and specifics, you may re-read your own comments on "if someone opposes me, someone must be funding them" above, incorrectly abstracting my comments about Vin to the general population. :) >>> 11. Security Dynamics is paying for those who oppose me. >> I merely asked if Vin intended to bill them for the time he spent >> writing his rants. A rhetorical question. > GIven the rest of your post, the inference was direct. If you did not > intend to imply that, you should not have used that languaging. Bzzzzzzzz. Wrong Answer. And we will have to deduct additional points for abstracting again from Vin to the general population vis a vis "Security Dynamics is paying for those who opppose me." The best you can get on this mid-term is now a C. :) >>> 12. Such opposition is "a tirade". >> Suggesting that I would have to retire my nym after criticizing the >> RSA patent and taking several pages to say a paragraph of material >> certainly qualifies as a tirade in my book, especially when combined >> with a lot of irrelevent innuendo unrelated to the topic being >> discussed. > Since most of his post was factual, it was not a tirade. Most of the factual material refuted nothing I was claiming, and refuted things I wasn't claiming, such as Jevon's book containing a complete description of PKC, as opposed to being the earliest known work which contained something related to the topic. Again, an attempt to impress people with the volume of the evidence, rather than with its quality, which when combined with the occasional snide remark, meets my definition of "tirade." > You are trying to discredit the bulk of his post with a > characterization of a small portion that doesn't apply to the whole, > and may not even apply to the portion. His post is discredited because it fails to address any of my points about the RSA patent, and instead argues forcibly for a collection of self-evident surrogate issues, carefully selected for their ability to be easily confused with the real ones. >>> 13. No corporations are buying products with GAK, key recovery, etc. >>> (N.B. in That is what "no corporate demand" means). >> To an economist, perhaps. It would be more accurate to say that >> demand as a function of whether such features are included is a >> pretty flat function. > You didn't say that. You said "no corporate demand". I understand the > word "no" because English is my mother tongue. "Demand" in common English usage means that something is being clamored for. In Economic terms, it means half of the phrase "supply and demand" which is something entirely different, said economic demand existing for anything which is purchased. > that the demand curve has a particular (flat) shape, did you make that > up or did you rely on empirical evidence? I believe that surveys by privacy groups long ago showed that GAK/Key Escrow/Key Recovery was not being clamored for by corporate America, although attempts were being made to incentivize it by the intelligence and law enforcement communities. > Your statement that "demand as a function of" X is a pretty flat > function is also nonsense economics. Perhaps you meant to say that the > _quantity demanded_ is invariant over whether these features are > included or not. I was using "demand" in its ordinary English usage. You were using it as an economic term, in an attempt to call the mere fact that GAK/Key Escrow/Key Recovery-enabled software was purchased at all "demand" for it. Which, to use one of Clinton's favorite phrases, was "technically accurate, although misleading." :) > Or perhaps you meant to say that the demand curve as a function of X > was 'one-to-one onto' itself. Uh, no. That was definitely not what I was saying. I don't think it is what you are trying to say either, but thanks for using "1-1" and "onto" in a sentence about functions. > To test your hypothesis, you'd have to show that if two versions were > offered simultaneously, one with and one without X, no corporate buyer > would prefer the version with X. That would kind of depend on how "X" was priced, would it not? If you give things away for free, people will probably take one in case they need it someday, as it costs them nothing. This does not equate to "demand," or "clamoring." > I leave the reason that would the the dispositive experiment as an > exercise. Hint: It's utility economics. Hint: It's not quite English. >>> 14. Someone who opposes stronger escrow/GAK/key recovery than RSA is >>> offering must be suspect. >> Your point here eludes me. > You said that he opposed escrow/GAK/key recovery except up to the > point offered by RSA. That translates as he opposes such things if > they were stronger than those offered by RSA. Nothing suspect about > that--he simply agrees with the decision point RSA chose as to how > strong to make such things. That's one possible explanation. To test your hypothesis, we should see how well Vin's agreement tracks RSA's inclusion of additional encrow/GAK/recovery features in the future. He may have to change the name of "The Privacy Guild" to something less impressive. >>> I could go on ... >> And you usually do, and on, and on, and on... > And now you're diverging from the facts and logic of the matter to > personal attack. It reveals the same flaw that invalidated your > original post. I'm sure you've been attacked before, by people a lot less nice than myself. :) >> I simply believe that patents on applied math are inappropriate. >> Given that they are allowed, it seems silly to cite the fact that the >> courts uphold them as evidence for anything, particularly claims that >> they are new, novel, and non-obvious. > Had you said that we could have had a rational discussion. Points in > the discussion would have included: > 1. Even patent law agrees with you; the RSA patent is a process > patent and not a patent on applied math. Hmmm. Well, patents on pure math are not allowed, ergo, math must be suitably transformed in order to be patented. > 2. Patents purely on applied math, are, as far as anyone here knows > not allowed. You may exponentiate to your heart's content as long as > you don't practice the RSA algorithm as part of a crypto system. There is a fundamental difference between telling me I cannot practice modular exponentiation to communicate with people without licensing it, and telling me I cannot make RDRAMs without licensing that. I am unlikely to replicate the RDRAM design by accident. I am quite likely to derive a given bit of mathematics given the application for it. If RSA can be patented, why not something like Householder transforms, or cluster analysis, or the quadratic formula? Sounds like the slippery slope to me. > 3. The court didn't uphold a patent on applied math; it upheld a > process patent on a crypto system that, among other things, uses > applied math. So does almost any engineering design. There is a fundamental difference between a physical machine whose design required the use of mathematics, and an abstract mathematical transformation, which may exist only in an instance of some computer program performing a certain task. > 4. The particular process patent was found to be new, novel, and > non-obvious. There was ample opportunity for Cylink to try to refute > that. They failed. End of story. Again, returning to the top of our discussion, the existence of "obvious prior art" for RSA in the common English sense meaning of "obvious prior art" has little to do with whether patents are upheld in the current regulatory climate in the United States. It would be simple to test your hypothesis, by simply giving trapdoor functions replete with useful identities to two people, and telling they have to construct a common secret unknown to a third party monitoring their communication. I cannot imagine a technically skilled person taking very long to make the transition from some "one-way" functions, to a practical implementation of D-H, RSA, or whatever. That would be my definition of "obvious." > Now we've discussed all the above substance before, and my purpose in > reciting the four points isn't to re-open the topic, but to show that > your definition of what the topic is is simply incorrect. My posts. My topic. Your posts. Your topic. Works for me. :) > Given that, I don't propose to discuss the above four points yet > again. They aren't there to reopen the discussion, but to show that > your statement of the issue is inaccurate. My statement is point "I" at the beginning of this message. Please re-read it and tell me whether or not you agree with it. -- Sponsor the DES Analytic Crack Project http://www.cyberspace.org/~enoch/crakfaq.html From nobody at replay.com Mon Nov 30 19:52:21 1998 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:52:21 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199812010320.EAA00631@replay.com> Perhaps of interest to locals... EE380 Computer Systems Colloquium Fall Quarter 1998-1999 Lecture #10 Date: Wednesday, Dec 2, 1998 Time: 4:15-5:30 pm Location: NEC Auditorium (B03) Gates Computer Science Building Internet: Live on the Net! See instructions on the Web page http://www-leland.stanford.edu/class/ee380 ********************************************************************** Title: Cracking the Data Encryption Standard: Technology, Design, and Politics Speaker: John Gilmore The Electronic Frontier Foundation About the talk: Sometimes it takes good engineering to straighten out twisted politics. In 1997, working in conjunction with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, John Gilmore decided to demonstrate this by building a custom computer that would be able to solve the Data Encryption Standard, an encoding scheme the United States Government had been promoting for "secure" business and financial communications since the 1970s. It had long been suspected the Government was pressing citizens to use this standard because its intelligence agencies were secretly able to decode DES-encrypted messages. It appears this theory was right. DES *was* crackable -- easily and affordably -- which Mr. Gilmore demonstrated in July, 1998 by using his "DES Cracker" system to solve in less than three days a coded message that had been produced as part of a DES-decryption contest. In this presentation Mr. Gilmore will discuss the design of the DES Cracker system and explain some of the politics surrounding the DES controversy. Note: A full description of the DES Cracker system, including complete hardware and software design details, appears in the book, "Cracking DES: Secrets of Encryption Research, Wiretap Politics, & Chip Design," published by O'Reilly. Further details can also be found at: http://www.eff.org/descracker/ About the speaker: John Gilmore is an entrepreneur and civil libertarian. He was an early employee of Sun Microsystems, and co-founded Cygnus Solutions, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), the Cypherpunks, and the Internet's "alt" newsgroups. He has twenty-five years of experience in the computer industry, including programming, hardware and software design, management, and investment, and is a significant contributor to the worldwide open source (free software) development effort. Mr. Gilmore's advocacy efforts on encryption policy aim to improve public understanding of this fundamental technology for privacy and accountability in open societies. He led the team that built, in conjunction with the EFF, the world's first published DES Cracker. He is a board member of the Internet Society and the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Further background information may be found at: http://www.cygnus.com/~gnu/ Contact information: John Gilmore gnu at toad.com From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 30 20:03:16 1998 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:03:16 +0800 Subject: Securing data in memory (was "Locking physical memory (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19981130180002.17576.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: At 10:00 AM -0800 11/30/98, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: >There used to be a rule of thumb that you'd want roughly a megabyte >per megahertz. Today, with our 200+ MHz processors, we tend to have >considerably less memory than this. My Gateway PC from a couple of >years ago came with a 200 MHz Pentium Pro but only 32 MB of memory. > >Most PCs today are not well balanced architecturally. They should >really have a couple hundred megabytes of memory. Memory is cheap >enough today that this can be added, but the motherboard configuration >may limit the amount. If you had this much memory, swapping to disk >would be a smaller problem. Some of us are more balanced... My G3 Powerbook has 160 MB of RAM for a 240 MHz processor. My recollection is that "Amdahl's Law" was only a rule of thumb within an order of magnitude or so. I'm not a computer architect, so I don't what a good ratio today would be. --Tim May "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, just the way the President did." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. From emc at wire.insync.net Mon Nov 30 20:15:13 1998 From: emc at wire.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:15:13 +0800 Subject: Sternlight on Cypherpunks Message-ID: <199812010354.VAA19426@wire.insync.net> Sternlight has denied us! David Sternlight writes: > I am not on the Cypherpunks list. Given the tone of some posters I > don't' see that as a useful list. > I never participated in that list. It was suggested to me by a very > senior member of the list that all the wrangling typical of that list > meant it wasn't worth the time, and I took his advice. I never had sex with that woman. -Bill Clinton I never participated in that list. -David Sternlight Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't David join the list some time ago, and depart with a giant PLONK when someone called him a "statist"? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"