From 00479486 at 22629.com Mon Sep 1 09:35:20 1997 From: 00479486 at 22629.com (00479486 at 22629.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your Web Page Message-ID: <319702170025.GAA08056@jtbill.com> Now you can submit your Web Page to over 620 Internet indexes in a few short minutes and watch your traffic soar! The Central Registry has helped thousands of sites like yours greatly improve the performance of their Web Page. The more indexes you are registered in, the more traffic your Web Page is going to receive. Being registered in "the top" indexes is not enough. Why not have your Web Page registered in every index throughout the world that will generate extra traffic for you? The Central Registry is the leader in Web Page registration and promotion. We are the oldest and most well established service of this type on the Internet. We process more Web Page registrations than all of our competitors combined. The Central Registry is the only service that dynamically asks you for the exact same information each index requests, assuring accurate and thorough registration. Unlike most services, we do not exclude indexes with larger input forms and various detailed categories. No other registration service can compare to our value, professionalism and performance. Please come visit our web page today at: http://www.CentralRegistry.com and see what some of our customers have had to say about the overwhelming traffic increases they have seen as a result of being registered everywhere. Thank you. Sincerely, The Central Registry http://www.CentralRegistry.com From ahoier at juno.com Mon Sep 1 01:06:00 1997 From: ahoier at juno.com (CYPHER ? PUNK) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:06:00 +0800 Subject: I NEED SPAM!!!!! IT GIVES ME ENERGY!!!!! In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com> Message-ID: <19970901.034852.3638.18.ahoier@juno.com> Could Someone on this list e-mail me some SPAM to ahoier at juno.com ASAP Im looosiiing poooooooooowwerrr!!!!!!! ME!!!!!!!!!!!! >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 >MessageID: HyRMcbGm8DN7BxUVL/6EunpyDLmTX8Wj > >iQA/AwUBNAneIl7MfpC8gEO7EQIOIgCeM6giFdXXS1Idut3q941mSEEc8CAAoITk >142XgrvDAUe3CMwH4jTRiJZi >=jvrj >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From k.p at snet.net Mon Sep 1 02:41:59 1997 From: k.p at snet.net (Dave K-P) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:41:59 +0800 Subject: Crypto FAQs Message-ID: <199709011328.JAA00386@crypt.com> Someone wrote: > Dose Cypherpunks have an FAQ? and dose it need one? There is a "cypherpunk FAQ", but you'd be better off reading the sci.crypt FAQs first. Consult your favorite search engine for locations. From k.p at snet.net Mon Sep 1 04:31:08 1997 From: k.p at snet.net (Dave K-P) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:31:08 +0800 Subject: International Relations Message-ID: <199709011518.LAA00645@crypt.com> "[I]t seems pretty clear that no civilized people will ever again permit its government to enter into a competitive armament race." -- Nicholas Murray Butler (President of Columbia University), quoted in the Literary Digest, October 17, 1914 From geezbox at hotmail.com Mon Sep 1 04:45:20 1997 From: geezbox at hotmail.com (Harry Regan) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:45:20 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: <19970901113516.25236.qmail@hotmail.com> Information, please! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de Mon Sep 1 04:49:37 1997 From: lutz at taranis.iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:49:37 +0800 Subject: Adding Memory to the Net In-Reply-To: <19970831181542.2052.qmail@zipcon.net> Message-ID: * Mike Duvos wrote: >The basic idea here is to add memory to the Net in a reliable >way, so that the Net provides memory services in the way it now >universally provides data transport services. The Net would then Try to find SMMP, Simple Memory Managment Ptotocol. Dejanews (old database) may help. Originated to Kristian Koehntopp. From remailer at bureau42.ml.org Mon Sep 1 05:30:05 1997 From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:30:05 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Rabid Wombat wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote: > > > "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen > > credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information > > was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was > > taken into custody by the FBI. > > > > And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit > > cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over > > 100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies > > and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer > > security. > > I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that > my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account > numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened > a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss > to me. > > OTOH, it *might* have been in response to a different incident. Keep > those paranoid rants coming. Why don't you tell us the name of the company that has such lousy computer security that your credit was placed in jepoardy, so that we can decide if we want to avoid doing business with them? RantMonger From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Sep 1 06:41:57 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:41:57 +0800 Subject: Carding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen > > > credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information > > > was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was > > > taken into custody by the FBI. > > > > > > And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit > > > cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over > > > 100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies > > > and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer > > > security. > > > > I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that > > my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account > > numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened > > a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss > > to me. > > > > OTOH, it *might* have been in response to a different incident. Keep > > those paranoid rants coming. > > Why don't you tell us the name of the company that has such lousy > computer security that your credit was placed in jepoardy, so that we > can decide if we want to avoid doing business with them? Waitaminute. If your credit card number is stolen and misused, and you follow the procedures, your credit is not affected. The financial institutions eat the losses from fraud (humongous), then pass them on cardholders and merchants. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Sep 1 07:04:15 1997 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:04:15 +0800 Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199709011350.GAA06757@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; $remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post"; $remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?"; $remailer{"lcs"} = " mix"; $remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle" $remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle"; $remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek"; $remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek"; $remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek"; $remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek"; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer. There is no remailer at relay.com. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (cyber mix reno winsock) (weasel squirrel medusa) (cracker redneck) (nym lcs) (valdeez arrid hera) The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page. Last update: Mon 1 Sep 97 6:49:30 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com +++++++**+*+ 18:43 99.99% weasel config at weasel.owl.de --+++-++++- 1:36:13 99.95% bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org -------..--- 5:27:26 99.94% nym config at nym.alias.net +#+###* #### 1:28 99.82% cyber alias at alias.cyberpass.net +**++* *+*** 11:22 99.68% winsock winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net ---+..----- 6:54:29 99.64% neva remailer at neva.org ** +#*+-+*#+ 17:59 99.55% squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de ------_---- 3:56:24 99.35% reno middleman at cyberpass.net + +- -+++..+ 4:18:57 99.02% hera goddesshera at juno.com ---.------- 8:07:05 98.39% arrid arrid at juno.com ----+ --- - 5:23:18 96.51% redneck config at anon.efga.org #*#+*#* - 36:25 95.93% cracker remailer at anon.efga.org ++++++++ 38:21 90.88% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca ++++++++ 51:19 88.75% replay remailer at replay.com +** +*** 11:21 88.18% valdeez valdeez at juno.com -------- 7:02:22 63.69% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From jya at pipeline.com Mon Sep 1 08:00:21 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:00:21 +0800 Subject: Patel's Opinion Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970901143843.00757e30@pop.pipeline.com> John and Stanton, Greg Broiles fedexed us a clear, scannable copy of Patel's August 25 Opinion, which we've digitized and formatted, in case EFF wants to use it to supplement the admirable volunteer effort: http://jya.com/bernstein-III.htm (93K) From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Mon Sep 1 09:48:02 1997 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:48:02 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Rabid Wombat wrote: > > > > On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote: > > > > > "Smak" delivered an encrypted CD containing over 100,000 stolen > > > credit card numbers. After the validity of the credit card information > > > was confirmed through decryption of the data on the CD, "Smak" was > > > taken into custody by the FBI. > > > > > > And the 100,000 people were immediately notified that their credit > > > cards had been compromised? I fucking doubt it. Better to screw over > > > 100,000 citizen-units than expose the incompetence of a few companies > > > and the government's fight against strong encryption and computer > > > security. > > > > I was recently notified by a bank that issued one of my credit cards that > > my card number had been sold, along with thousands of other account > > numbers, to an undercover FBI agent. The bank canceled my account, opened > > a new one, and overnighted a replacement card. No big deal, and no loss > > to me. > > > > OTOH, it *might* have been in response to a different incident. Keep > > those paranoid rants coming. > > Why don't you tell us the name of the company that has such lousy > computer security that your credit was placed in jepoardy, so that we > can decide if we want to avoid doing business with them? > Based on what I've seen so far, the account numbers were more likely to have been obtained from the databases of merchants than from banks. If the bank was cracked, there would have been many more card numbers from one bank on the CD, rather than a distribution of account numbers issued by many institutions. I doubt that someone managed to crack a dozens of banks, and then took only a few thousand numbers from each. It is more likely that "widgets R us" was compromised, resulting in a few thousand accounts from each of the major banks. I suppose I could look back over a few year's worth of statements, and tell you where *not* to shop, but I'd be listing all merchants I'd done business with as being equally guilty, when it is very likely that only one was compromised. My guess is that Smak had inside access to a particular merchant's system, but I've been wrong before. -r.w. From brianbr at together.net Mon Sep 1 10:24:15 1997 From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:24:15 +0800 Subject: Encouraging News - France Message-ID: <199709011716.NAA01820@mx02.together.net> From >Encryption technology: French boost for internet software >MONDAY SEPTEMBER 1 1997 >By Andrew Jack in Paris >France is poised to liberalise regulations on computer encryption >technology which could boost its efforts to encourage development of the >internet. >The government is shortly to publish an official decree which would for >the first time allow easy access to and use of software which encodes >sensitive information in order to protect it from unauthorised >interception. >The move could prove especially important for companies attempting to >sell products and services over the internet, but which have been >concerned about their protection of credit card numbers and other >financial information provided by their customers. > >France remains one of the few western countries to impose such >restrictive legislation on encryption, with only certain categories of >users currently allowed to use the software. >Other nations which continue to restrict the use of cryptography tightly >in order to control the transfer of sensitive information include Iraq, >Libya, Singapore and China. >While many more countries - including EU member states and the US - >restrict the export of sophisticated encryption technology as a product >important to national security, most have more liberal guidelines >concerning the circulation and application of software within their own >borders. >The new decree in France follows a 1996 telecommunications regulation >law, which opened the way to liberalisation of encryption software but >which has so far not led to publication of any details of how the >measures could be applied. >The latest move comes after Lionel Jospin, the prime minister, made a >speech last week highlighting the "delay" in France of uptake of the >internet and promising initiatives to give it a higher priority. >--------- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys - Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key" "One of the deep mysteries to me is our logo, the symbol of lust and knowledge, bitten into, all crossed with in the colors of the rainbow in the wrong order. You couldn't dream of a more appropriate logo: lust, knowledge, hope, and anarchy." -- Gassee - Apple Logo From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Sep 1 10:32:11 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:32:11 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rabid Wombat writes: > Based on what I've seen so far, the account numbers were more likely to > have been obtained from the databases of merchants than from banks. If > the bank was cracked, there would have been many more card numbers from > one bank on the CD, rather than a distribution of account numbers issued > by many institutions. I doubt that someone managed to crack a dozens of > banks, and then took only a few thousand numbers from each. It is more > likely that "widgets R us" was compromised, resulting in a few thousand > accounts from each of the major banks. A couple of years ago "hackers" got hold of the credit card numbers being billed by panix.com, a (lousy) NYC ISP. of course that was much less3 than a hundred thousand cards :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From nobody at REPLAY.COM Mon Sep 1 10:44:48 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:44:48 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199709011734.TAA24922@basement.replay.com> At 05:55 PM 8/26/97 +1000, A non-stoned David Formosa wrote: >I take a second sample from our plunger wealding cop, its the blood of a >homospapain i.e. a human. > >The cop can't become inhuman by any action thay take. Humans can be very kind and polite, or they can just be murdering assholes. So in Dave's defense, despite the fact he made an argumant sounding like he was on crack, I have to say that plungering someone is part of human nature. We're all capable of things along that line, and anyone who thinks otherwise must have forgotten about the holocaust. Does that make it any less wrong to do that? Fuck no. That cop should still go to prison for life, at least. From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 1 11:24:50 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:24:50 +0800 Subject: Encouraging News - France In-Reply-To: <199709011716.NAA01820@mx02.together.net> Message-ID: I'm extremely skeptical that France will truly liberalize crypto use by its citizen-units. Rather, I expect they will just be falling in line with the OECD/Wasenaar/New World Order "trusted third party" key recovery approach that the United States, Britain, and other European and Asian countries are behind-the-scenes adopting. At 10:16 AM -0700 9/1/97, Brian B. Riley wrote: > From > >>Encryption technology: French boost for internet software > >>MONDAY SEPTEMBER 1 1997 >>By Andrew Jack in Paris > >>France is poised to liberalise regulations on computer encryption >>technology which could boost its efforts to encourage development of the >>internet. Does anyone think this means: "Hey, use whatever crypto program you want. Use something SDECE cannot break!"? Given the monopoly France Telecom has on Internet access, I'd expect a "solution" that involves FT issuing keys, or something equally brain dead as that. (I gave an invited talk on crypto anarchy at a conference in Monaco a few years ago, and spoke to several France Telecom representatives. They made it quite clear that France was not going to tolerate independent ISPs, and that France Telecom would administer any crypto ever to be used by the populace. Maybe this policy has changed, but I doubt it. Whatever France's charms, open debate is not one of them.) >>The government is shortly to publish an official decree which would for >>the first time allow easy access to and use of software which encodes >>sensitive information in order to protect it from unauthorised >>interception. I'll bet 1000 francs that this will not mean citizens can use PGP openly. (I know some Frenchies who are already using PGP, of course.) >>The new decree in France follows a 1996 telecommunications regulation >>law, which opened the way to liberalisation of encryption software but >>which has so far not led to publication of any details of how the >>measures could be applied. One wag put it this way: "Any Frenchman may apply for a permit to use strong cryptography. The same way any Frenchman may apply for a permit for an Exocet missile." --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 1 11:29:40 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:29:40 +0800 Subject: Encouraging News - France Message-ID: I should've added to my last post that not only am I skeptical that citizens in France will be able to use truly strong, unbreakable crypto, but that the "encouraging news" is quite likely just the opposite. No solution which involves key escrow or "mandatory voluntary" key recovery is "encouraging." The French do not have a solid basis for protection of free speech, as the United States (mostly) does. We Americans can point to the First Amendment and pretty much nuke any proposals to place prior restraint on the forms or content of speech, including the languages we speak to each other in, whether Navaho, Urdu, or PGP. This is why so many of us are opposed to SAFE, which for the sake of eased export requirements would infringe on domestic use of crypto. (By felonizing crypto use in conjunction with a crime, and that crime could be any one of thousands of crimes on the books.) So, I doubt strongly the news out of France is "encouraging." Rather, I expect France is about to fall into line with the OECD agreements on escrowed encryption. As so many Cypherpunks apparently like to say, "Feh." --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From yourfriend at tele.ntnu.no Tue Sep 2 02:43:35 1997 From: yourfriend at tele.ntnu.no (yourfriend at tele.ntnu.no) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: per inquiry advertising Message-ID: <199709020934.LAA20764@telesun> Per Inquiry Advertising Why pay For Space And Circulation When You Can Get It Free? Your product, service, business opportunity or 900# can be continuously publicized in various National Print Media and you simply pay for your responses on a Per Inquiry basis. But wait, there's more! You'll get free copywriting service. Yes, because we want to generate as many qualified responses or 900# calls for you as possible, you'll get on-target ads written by direct marketing professionals on our staff who have decades of experience. Simply Call: 1-201-991-3184 Be sure to ask for: Info Kit #91005 For full details without cost or obligation, call now. To speak to a company representative live, call 10 am to 5 pm EST Monday-Saturday. Sorry, this program is only available in the U.S. and Canada. Ideal For: Publicizing & Brokering #900 Lines - Business Products & Services MLM's - Distributor Recruiting - Financial Offers - Consumer Products & Services RS-Independent Distributor! From jya at pipeline.com Mon Sep 1 12:09:42 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:09:42 +0800 Subject: Encouraging News - France Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970901185733.0083cff4@pop.pipeline.com> Tim May wrote: > >I should've added to my last post that not only am I skeptical that >citizens in France will be able to use truly strong, unbreakable crypto, >but that the "encouraging news" is quite likely just the opposite. > >No solution which involves key escrow or "mandatory voluntary" key recovery >is "encouraging." Tim's nailed this. Expect the US, and other Wassenaar signators, to announce similar regulations ostensibly in support of privacy and commerce that will include GAK to assure public and national security. This is House National Security Committee chair Solomon's position, the next stop for SAFE, and as TM notes, where it will be further eviscerated to fit TLA requirements. This is the public policy agenda of the McCain-Kerry Bill. This is BXA's goal in the current draft regs circulating for comment, and probably what's coming in the Wassenaar implementation, while it engenders complicity from commercial license seekers with one-by-one approvals. This is DoJ's argument in Bernstein for controlling object code while avowing total support for academic freedom and freedom to publish print in deference to the 1st Amend. It looks as though the fall crypto campaign is about to open with a rush, worldwide. Stories being fed to journalists, draft regs being dealt to collaborators, license approvals for sure bettors. Up-yours to all the rest who don't want to, in smooth-tongue Stewart Baker's phrase, "French kiss NSA/BXA." From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Sep 1 12:51:22 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:51:22 +0800 Subject: UNSAFE Re: Encouraging News - France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970901122901.03012ae8@popd.ix.netcom.com> At 11:25 AM 9/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >This is why so many of us are opposed to SAFE, which for the sake of eased >export requirements would infringe on domestic use of crypto. (By >felonizing crypto use in conjunction with a crime, and that crime could be >any one of thousands of crimes on the books.) According to some article on some mailing list, SAFE appears to be dead; the chairman of one of the relevant committees believes too strongly in "National Security" to be willing to let it out. On the other hand, if it does get out, the ACLU and CDT lobbied some words into it that would at least limit the use-a-crypto penalties to crimes that are Federal criminal felonies, so jaywalking while using a cellphone doesn't get hit (unlike jaywalking while carrying an assault BBgun.) It's still seriously wrong, of course, but at least the number of cases that it applies to is substantially reduced, though the number of Federal felonies keeps increasing at an appalling rate. If SAFE does go through, I'm sure someone will get busted for selling drugs while using a cellphone, with the prosecution arguing that since the cellphone is capable of interstate phone calls, the drug deal is a Federal crime and not just state, and therefore the use-crypto-go-to-jail applies... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From leo at supersex.com Mon Sep 1 12:53:57 1997 From: leo at supersex.com (Leo Papandreou) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:53:57 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: <19970901113516.25236.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Harry Regan wrote: > Information, please! Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From Amanda at aol.com Tue Sep 2 03:54:17 1997 From: Amanda at aol.com (Amanda at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best Wishes Message-ID: <472649088220Unn93756@pagenet.com> CONTINUE READING ONLY IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY THAT IS ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED TO MAKE MONEY!!! You are about to make from $5,000 to $50,000 in less than 90 days! Don't Stop Reading!!! Read the enclosed program, THEN READ IT AGAIN!... The enclosed information is something that I was reluctant to try and almost tossed aside. Fortunately, I re-read everything and gave it a second thought. After reading it several times to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. It is a MONEYMAKING PHENOMENON! I took a pencil and paper and figured it out. There is absolutely no way I wouldn't at least get my money back and I was almost guaranteed to make from $5,000 to $50,000. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided that THERE WAS NOTHING TO LOSE AND A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY TO GAIN! Read the following description of how the program achieves instant success: Initially, I sent out 5,000 e-mails. I obtained a list for $35.00 from a company mentioned in one of the reports that I received by responding to the program. The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need any money for printing or to send out the initial mailing! E-mail is free. The only cost is the pennies it cost to fill each order. In less than 1 week, I was receiving orders for Report #1. Before long, I had received 22 orders for report #1. When you read the guarantee in the program, you will see that to be guaranteed $50,000 "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15-20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN THE FIRST TWO WEEKS! IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS. Since I had received 22 orders for Report #1, the first step in making $50,000 in 20-90 days was done. Shortly thereafter, I had received 143 orders for report #2. In the guarantee, it states that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS OR YOU SHOULD SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS." ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 YOU SHOULD SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS. SIT BACK AND RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL! Well, I had 43 more orders for report #2 than I needed, so I relaxed. With my E-Mailing of 5,000 I have received $52,000... ALAN B. Philadelphia, PA Remember that opportunities like this don't work if you don't try them. Also, it is very important to follow the program exactly. Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. This could cost you a lot of money in lost orders. You don't have to send out 5,000 e-mails if you do not want to. E-mail everyone you know, 50, 100 or so people. We recommend that you send out at least 1,000. Once you obtain a list (or use the search engines on your Internet browser) you can send 1,000 e-mails in about 2-3 hours depending on your modem speed. KEEP IN MIND, IF YOUR GOAL IS $50,000... Always follow the guarantee15-20 orders for report #1 and 100 or more orders for Report #2 and you will make $50,000. A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed information and reports, you should have determined that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that I had always done but they were not working. Following the old saying "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER", I determined that traditional methods of making money will not allow you to "get rich" or make significant advances up the ladder of success, inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you a LARGE amount of money with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can use the money to pay off bills, start another business or whatever you want. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor will anyone else that has provided a testimonial for the program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program to pursue other interests. By the spring of next year, I wish to market my concepts through a partnership with America On Line. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED it works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people that you e-mail to could send out 50,000 programs and your name will be on every one of them. Remember the more that you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. Before you consider deleting the program from your hard drive, get out a pencil and figure out the WORST possible response. You will see that no matter how you figure, YOU WILL MAKE MONEY... Paul Johnson, Raleigh HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU MONEY! Let's say that you decide to start with 2,000. Assume that you send out 2,000 programs. Nationwide, email response averages between 2%-5%, but lest assume the worst and say that your mailing receives .5% response. That's 10 orders for report #1. Remember, most people are greedy, they send out more than 2,000 programs-5,000-50,000 but once again, lets assume the worst and say that those 10 people send out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000 programs. Out of those, .5% or 100 people respond and order report #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. Out of those, .5% or 1,000 Order report #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 each for a total of 2,000,000. The .5%response adds up to 10,000 orders for report #4. Add it up... That's 10,000 $5 bills for you for report #4 or $50,000, 1,000 $5 bills for report #3 or $5,000, 100 $5 bills for report #2 or $500, and 10 $5 bills for report #1 or $50. $50,000+$5,000+$500+$50= $55,550!!! Sound unbelievable??? That's how multilevel marketing works...and remember, this was a "WORST CASE" example. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. Multi-Level Marketing is being taught at HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL. INSTRUCTIONS STEP (1) Order all 4 reports listed by name and number. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the 4 names listed on the next page. For each report, send $5 cash along with a self addressed, stamped envelope (Business Size #10) to the person listed for the specific report. International orders should include $1 extra for postage. Remember that those received without self addressed stamped envelopes will not be sent. It is essential that you specify the name and number of the report requested to the person. You will need all 4 reports because you will be re-printing and re-selling them. Do not alter the names or sequence in any way, and ALWAYS provide same day service on all orders. STEP (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to Report #2. Drop the name and address under report #2 down to Report #3 moving the one that was there down to report #4. The name and address that was under report #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on their way to the BANK. MAKE SURE YOU TYPE EACH NAME AND ADDRESS ACCURATELY! AND ABSOLUTELY DO NOT MIX UP THE NAME AND REPORT POSITIONS! STEP (3) Having made the required changes to the list, save it and all of the attached information as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program that you like. Again, Report #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. STEP (4) Email a copy of the entire program (all of it is very important) to everyone whose email address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous opportunity. That's what I did and they love me now more than ever. You can get email lists from companies on the Internet who specialize in this-more info will be included the reports. These lists are cheap, 10,000 names for about $35.00. IMPORTANT: You will not get good response if you use an old list, so request a new list. You will find out where to get these lists when you purchase all 4 reports. OR, if your needs are small, use your browser's search engines and you should be able to send about 1,000 programs in just a few hours at absolutely no cost for addresses, postage or anything. Just remember to send only 5 or 10 at a time or the header list at the top of the message will be too long and none will read it (This will be explained in one of the reports). OR...if you are more ambitious, one of the reports contains information on obtaining a bulk email list and bulk mailing to 10,000, 20,000 or even 100,000! REQUIRED REPORTS SEND A STAMPED, SELF-ADDRESSED ENVELOPE ALONG WITH $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT AND REQUEST THE REPORT BY NUMBER AND NAME ***REPORT #1 "How to make $250,000 through multilevel sales" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: DELCOM P.O. Box 916 Walnut Cove, NC 27052 ***REPORT #2 "Major Corporations and Multilevel Sales" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: IMC Corp. P.O. Box 483 Newton Square, PA 19073 ***REPORT #3 "Sources for the Best Mailing Lists" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Last Creation 103 Jefferson Circle Charles Town, WV 25414 ***REPORT #4 "Evaluating Multi-level Sales Plans" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: GMA PO Box 16182 Philadelphia, PA 19114-0182 CONCLUSION You can use the money you earn with this program to start a business, get out of debt or JUST SPEND IT. If you do not take advantage of this opportunity, you will have missed out. Please feel free to write the sender of this information and you will get a prompt reply. You will be offering a legitimate product to people. After they receive the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. The product is a series of 4 Financial and Business Reports. The information in these reports will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, it will help you in any other business decisions that you will make in years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint and resell the reports. The one and two page reports can easily be reproduced at a copy center for about 3 cents per copy. Best wishes and Good Luck! TIPS FOR SUCCESS: Send for your 4 reports immediately so that you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive the $5 for the report, you MUST send out the report! Title 18, sections 1302 and 1341 of the Postal Code state that "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED". WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO COME: 1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire. 2. Get a post office box if you prefer. 3. Edit the names and addresses on the program, specifically following the instructions. 4. Obtain as many email addresses as you possibly can until you receive the information on how to obtain an emailing list. 5. Decide on the number of programs that you wish to send out. Remember, the more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 6. After mailing the programs, be ready to fill orders. 7. Copy the 4 reports so that you are able to send them out as soon as you receive the order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS THAT YOU RECEIVE 8. Make certain that the letter and reports are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE The check point for the program is simply this: You must receive 15-20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must, if you don't, email out more programs until you do. 2 weeks later, you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, email more programs until you do. Once you receive 100 requests for REPORT # 2 sit back and relax, you are going to make $50,000-it is a mathematically proven guarantee! ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Received: from mrin39.mail.aol.com (mrin39.mail.aol.com [152.163.116.77]) by mrin37.mx.aol.com with SMTP; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:20:03 -0400 Received: from ha1.ntr.net (ha1.ntr.net [206.112.0.10]) by mrin39.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id SAA06270; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.ntr.net (s5.wirecom.com [206.162.54.5]) by ha1.ntr.net (NTR*NET 2.1.0) with SMTP id SAA16995; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:19:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Delcon at Aol.com Received: from Mailhost.AOL.COM by Danny365 at Aol.com (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA07455 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:19:50 -0600 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 18:19:50 EST To: Tdave at juno.com Subject: Members at aol.com Message-ID: <187705689444 Frr64353 at AOL.com> Reply-To: Mailhost.Member at Aol.com X-UIDL: 58585858585858585858585858585845 Comments: Authenticated sender is From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Sep 1 13:40:19 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 04:40:19 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Leo Papandreou writes: > On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Harry Regan wrote: > > > Information, please! > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. Don't "escrow" your keys. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU Mon Sep 1 14:33:30 1997 From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:33:30 +0800 Subject: Encouraging News - France In-Reply-To: <199709011716.NAA01820@mx02.together.net> Message-ID: <19970901172641.64155@math.princeton.edu> On lun 01 sept 1997 � 11:18:10AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > > I'm extremely skeptical that France will truly liberalize crypto use by its > citizen-units. Rather, I expect they will just be falling in line with the > OECD/Wasenaar/New World Order "trusted third party" key recovery approach That's probably true. Given the recent history on the subject in France, I doubt they would do a 180 degree turn... > Does anyone think this means: "Hey, use whatever crypto program you want. > Use something SDECE cannot break!"? Update, SDECE is now called DGSE ;-) Besides, they are our CIA, and therefore not supposed to act within France. But I guess the DST (the french FBI) would handle matters like that. So far France doesn't have a (known) equivalent of the NSA. A department controlled by the prime minister (the SGDN) handles the authorization process for crypto usage, and is assisted for technical issues by the SCSSI (which usually says "no way" for strong cryto). Now, the army has also its own cryto units, and they have quite knowledgeable people... (have a look at http://www.dmi.ens.fr/equipes/grecc/, and all these "ingenieurs de l'Armement" which are linked a way or another to this lab) > Given the monopoly France Telecom has on Internet access, I'd expect a > "solution" that involves FT issuing keys, or something equally brain dead > as that. It's not entirely true that FT has a monopoly. They do have a monopoly on the phone lines, yes, which means of course that they can (and do) dictate their own terms to any french internet provider. This won't last forever, as starting january 1st this monopoly will end. This means anybody will be free to switch to another phone provider (and yes, there will be a few of them, which have installed networks, and which currently can only offer phone services to compagnies, say to link to physical locations in France, and are eager to enter the market targeting individuals). Furthermore, it is untrue to say "FT=french governement". Actually, most senior officials at FT wanted the company to be sold to private interests, because they felt they would defend their dominant position better this way. The new governement stopped the process, but anyway FT has its own agenda, which may differ from the gov vues. Of course, this doesn't mean anything good to the end customer, the average french guy who would like to use the internet. FT is catching up on the subject, but they did everything to slow down the internet progression in France, fearing it would dammage their "minitel", which generates high revenues. > (I gave an invited talk on crypto anarchy at a conference in Monaco a few > years ago, and spoke to several France Telecom representatives. They made > it quite clear that France was not going to tolerate independent ISPs, and > that France Telecom would administer any crypto ever to be used by the > populace. Maybe this policy has changed, but I doubt it. Whatever France's > charms, open debate is not one of them.) You said everything when saying "a few years ago". I guess they woke up on these issues, and now their key problem is more "how to keep making the huge profits we make currently on the phone when we will have competitors next january". Somehow internet and use of crypto aren't that important in respect to that, even if anybody with half a brain can see how everything is connected. Besides, I will give you an example which illustrate how sometimes FT can be driven by market law rather than gov interests. A few months ago, they started to sell cell-phone cards, with a prepaid amount of time on it. these were anonymous, (they wouldn't ask for an ID or anything), and everything went fine for a couple of weeks, until somebody in the police realized they wouldn't be able to link calls like that to a poor soul. So FT got an order from the govt, and now they ask for an ID when purchasing. Now, I don't know if any of the other 2 cell-phone operators in France offer the same kind of card. I think they don't, unfortunatly, but if they decide to do so, it would take more than a phone call from the governement to make them comply with the police concerns. Well, I hope so... > I'll bet 1000 francs that this will not mean citizens can use PGP openly. > (I know some Frenchies who are already using PGP, of course.) The thing is, currently many individuals use it, for e-mail or file encryption, and I seriously doubt that anybody would be prosecuted just for that. But they (LEAs, gvt, you name it) know that it's a Damocles sword they can use at will. And they want to keep it that way. Unlike in the US, it's rather difficult to challenge a law in France, the way Berstein or Karn or Junger are doing. Therefore the current situation is unlikely to change in the near future. > >>The new decree in France follows a 1996 telecommunications regulation > >>law, which opened the way to liberalisation of encryption software but > >>which has so far not led to publication of any details of how the > >>measures could be applied. Well, mainly because they don't know themselves how to enforce their laws. Or simply to interpret them. > One wag put it this way: "Any Frenchman may apply for a permit to use > strong cryptography. The same way any Frenchman may apply for a permit for > an Exocet missile." Old technology. We know better ;-) you don't want to apply for a permit. You just use it. And if later LEAs targets you as a drug dealer, you will get 20 years for drug offences and 3 more months for crypto use. So as an individual, you don't care, but by doing things this way cryto won't be widespred soon, and large corporations or companies won't "just use it" the way a single guy will. Don't misunderstand me, it sucks, but at least when you are in France you don't expect to wake up in front of a SWAT. F. -- Fabrice Planchon (ph) 609/258-6495 Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall (fax) 609/258-1735 From azur at netcom.com Mon Sep 1 15:14:06 1997 From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:14:06 +0800 Subject: The End of Politics Message-ID: The End of Politics Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000 A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.). These points of inflection are often evidenced by a dramatic raise in corruption and lack of faith in institutions. At the start of the 16th century few could have imagined a secular Europe. Though its rampant decadence and debauchery was widely known, the Catholic Church permeated almost every aspect of life and its economic tentacles denominated all commerce. Yet by 1600 many city states had thrown off the ecclesiastical yolk and Protestantism was born. With the near constant stream of corruption revelations and the inability of the political process within the nation-states to deal with important social issues, it isn't hard to see the reflections in current events. Many claim our nation has diverged very far from its founding roots and, through expansive Supreme Court, Executive and Legislative Branch actions, the Feds have laid claim to almost every facet of American life not specifically nailed down in the Constitution (and many we thought were). Two turning points were catalyzed by military technology (metal armor and gunpowder) which dramatically altered the economic scale and payback for violence. We may be nearing the end of another such military technology cycle, which for the last 200 years favored those states which could muster the largest economies for warfare. With the fall of the Soviet Union it is obvious that democracies were able to extort more GNP through taxes than the communist could through outright state ownership of property. However, the cost of producing weapons of mass destruction (especially chemical and biological) has fallen dramatically and is now within reach not only of small nations but increasingly individuals. If one accepts that the wielding of such power has been instrumental in shaping world politics then the conclusion is almost inescapable that dominance by nation-states will be on the wane. The last turning point was also catalyzed by information technology: the moveable type printing press, the first mass-production technology. By 1500 hundreds of European printing presses had churned out over 20 million books. Early expectations were that the press would reinforce the use of Latin and the Church, but most Europeans were monoglot and few authors could compose satisfactory new Latin works. The rest, as they say, is history. Many have compared the Internet with the press and it's not unfair to characterize it as nothing short of an information revolution. The victory of the Western democracies over their Communist opponents was a political watershed. With no Soviet bogeyman to wave in front of voters, and the need to maintain their self-importance, politicians have had to reach into the bag for new villains. They have invoked the new Four Horseman (terrorists, pornographers, money-launderers and drugs-dealers ) as a threat with which only they can effectively deal. Only they can't and they know it. These issues are either outside their control, no matter what restrictive laws they pass, or of their own making. The Internet will play a key part in disintermediating governments and markets. To escape heavy regulatory burdens, significant information-based business, investments and individuals will become jurisdiction-less. With their ability to regulate and tax Internet commerce and content denied a major source of revenue will evaporate which be which cannot be replaced by sales and property taxes. This will spell the end of mass wealth redistribution and signal a massive global down-sizing of government. As the power of the nation-states to dictate world affairs slips, look for an eclipse of democracy and with it politics as we know it. Western thought is so infused with politics that few can imagine society without. Yet politics in the modern sense, the preoccupation with controlling and rationalizing the power of the state, is mainly a modern invention. It will end with the modern world just as the tangle of feudal duties and obligations which engrossed the attentions of people in the Middle Ages ended with the Middle Ages. --Steve From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Sep 1 15:21:08 1997 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:21:08 +0800 Subject: false spin on French Crypto news (was Re: Encouraging News - France) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199709012034.VAA07567@server.test.net> Tim May writes: > I'm extremely skeptical that France will truly liberalize crypto use by its > citizen-units. Rather, I expect they will just be falling in line with the > OECD/Wasenaar/New World Order "trusted third party" key recovery approach > that the United States, Britain, and other European and Asian countries are > behind-the-scenes adopting. I think it's been mis-reported. My understanding of the situation in France is that the "crypto use" regulations have changed, or are changing at this moment. The change is from "no crypto without a permit" to "crypto provided it is GAKked". So, you guessed right. > >>The government is shortly to publish an official decree which would for > >>the first time allow easy access to and use of software which encodes > >>sensitive information in order to protect it from unauthorised > >>interception. > > I'll bet 1000 francs that this will not mean citizens can use PGP openly. > (I know some Frenchies who are already using PGP, of course.) Depends on your definition of openly. Jerome Thorel, at the time a French free-lance journalist, interviewed the head of SCSSI, he asked "can individuals use PGP?" and the answer was "if you asked us for permission we'd say no, but if you use it we won't do anything about it". Jerome had this revelvation as his .sig for a while. Jerome Thorel uses PGP. I usually encrypt email to him. > One wag put it this way: "Any Frenchman may apply for a permit to use > strong cryptography. The same way any Frenchman may apply for a permit for > an Exocet missile." That ties up with Jeromes interview with the SCSSI person. Adam -- Have you exported RSA today? From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 1 16:19:36 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:19:36 +0800 Subject: The End of Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:08 PM -0700 9/1/97, Steve Schear wrote: > The End of Politics > >Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the >founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall >of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the >ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000 >A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.). I sure don't buy any analysis that starts with this kind of "periodicity analysis" (Fourier analysis of history?). Just for starters, these dates are highly arbitrary. The start of Roman influence in a major way was 100 B,C. or so, the death of that Jesus guy was a minor event (the real event was the rise of the Church, in Rome, during the next few centuries, and esp. with Constantine). And the "Dark Ages" were misnamed. Also, during these so-called Dark Ages, we saw Charlemagne, and, of course, Mohmammed. Circa 800 A.D. The Norman Conquest was 1066, the Crusades were circa 1150-1250 (I forget the exact dates), and so on. And the Enlightenment, c. 1700. And the American and French Revolutions. And the Industrial Age. And a huge amount of history, ups and downs, just in the last century. The dates you pick, -500, 0, 500, 1000, 1500 are artificial, selected to match a theory based on 500-year cycles. Kind of puts a crimp on the "500 year theory" doesn't it? One could just as easily write about a 400-year cycle with the last crest in 1800 (American and French Revolutions, etc.) and the next one in 2200. And it would still be bullshit. No offense meant to Steve, but this kind of analysis ranks up there with astrology, phrenology, and aptical foddering. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu Mon Sep 1 16:26:55 1997 From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:26:55 +0800 Subject: Hey In-Reply-To: <3405F0ED.5D84@toad.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970901163508.007aa450@popmail.firn.edu> :: Encrypted: PGP -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 MessageID: yV9u2hakLFv9/SGjemJH0AuGYsBQ1cOE hQCMA/HAD1cfk+qpAQQAwuEDcaGfi1QCu84QklmpWe0AtyQUKGvkIuT8cEXt/ePS G1QAGQBHNRPvsN92ORDxPY5K+JgeS4b8ZpRJ+C9pSFwtzJXyoSaPSWLVLe//GU4y H+yeO8kMmK2qbbthgDD1D/00sXbrQsqEbIyz2al/bRIFzalS8UHQg4Olg7hTjpGl AY608e0OyKO78dPdEGeRYH5PwW6BLgppULjR17+Puo0ukIqwcItJlYPx7K2AgNtA 9sDlymr5h+cMky+BbrFWoi8QZEBrHvhXckXuPWHDlrmxTzd362m2R9G3/4TLlMjK j6q2TD5DA0CT/g1ETK3J0y+7cFfuGp6oP2PhP27VCBW6maIp1Z35K3yNy7vytrTE qDuJtcF2lvDAYKBcKr0lk6fBuGfRRZge3ZlAOgo/t5KPSGou/KlkHb2eR20vWqUM Z2xcTkn5Y+ZJsPb/k9sOe8vKGK38IGYZdv2nj3k7MQvCIIuwAc37XIiC53mWAP8V mIISGuYa2DgcxkdEy/rW0vd3AbhRzNGHp4u4zpjK/r2kTDGYGBURZFv2dC24KmcT sgGYqYhYFY2/xmwiQgNKaRlMgrhRJZ8ytLxSCQts1pZhbImf2BFFBNshSIPUiZIn 4fEPvD0lgJjC7jkkwAjEfN3E8DSCORs7GzKY1/Psr5ZZkEKVezv2blL+5YjYff+H vfqgXkeGKOgXNUT1lNZZWA== =wuTx -----END PGP MESSAGE----- From anon at anon.efga.org Mon Sep 1 16:29:21 1997 From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:29:21 +0800 Subject: None Message-ID: At 10:23 AM 8/29/97 +1000, you wrote: >The aol idiots are a joke right ?? Someone keeps faking the address ?? > >Or are aol'ers this stupid ?? If they are faking, it's a nice forgery. But I doubt it. AOLers are usually this dumb, while for some odd reasons, some smart AOLers exist. Of course, consider they aren't too smart if they stick with an Orwellian online service that treats it's customers like shit. AOLers, Rennie, are kinda like newborns, they make a hell of a lot of noise, but they don't know too much. From k.p at snet.net Mon Sep 1 16:44:45 1997 From: k.p at snet.net (Dave K-P) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:44:45 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199709020326.XAA00192@crypt.com> > > > Information, please! > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > Don't "escrow" your keys. Don't take advice from strangers. From anon at anon.efga.org Mon Sep 1 16:47:50 1997 From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:47:50 +0800 Subject: None Message-ID: Top 10 Ways to Make a Grouchy Old CypherPunk Smile -------------------------------------------------- #10) Find his shoes for him. #9) Buy Kent Crispin a Dr. Kevorkian gift-certificate. #8) Nuke Washington DC #7) Send ten copies of this back to Vulis. #6) Shoot a Fed. #5) Shoot David Downey. #4) Heavily spam the clueless number of AOLers asking to be on the list. #3) Hang a disemboweled Paul Pomes from a tree. #2) Prank call John Gilmore to tell him what a cocksucker he is. #1) [This space reserved for T.C. May] From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu Mon Sep 1 16:59:08 1997 From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:59:08 +0800 Subject: H/W v S/W encryption Constitutional challenge --The Next Generation Message-ID: <199709012349.TAA07450@www.video-collage.com> At 06:05 PM 8/29/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: ... > your suggestion of an interpretive language is a good idea if it > creates an easily understood body of code. perl? powerful, but > even more cryptic than C --sometimes I think perl is too powerful > . > ... What about Cobol. I hated it and have fortunately forgotten everything that I learned. ( hated having to make sure I had to start on the right space for this bit or that bit, it was my first experience with such constraints, I had to learn on a hobbled editor/compiler, the for sale version which was not included with the book cost more, I already had the computer theory basics and so didn't need to learn about I/O basics, basic diagram of computers, flow charts, etc., I hated trying to type in all that extra as I am a firm believer in the use the letters until you run out of letters for variable names school.) What I do remember was that it was described to us, (the class), as being designed so that it was an easy read. If you chose your variable names right, supposedly anyone could follow it. The language is compiled which means that although it might be harder to convince the judge that it is speach, it will run faster. The language is well distributed, so is about equal to C and others in that reguard. The language was originally popular due to the DOD, which required a Cobol compiler bwe available for every computer they bought for a while. (Oh, the history that you learn in Software Engineering Class.) This last fact makes it more of an insult to those who claim national security as the reason for suppression. Whatever the language, it would have to be well documented in the code so that a layman could follow it easily enough. If the language could be written in a scripting language designed for the average computer user, all the better. Could PGP5.0 be rewritten in Hypertalk for Hypercard for Macintosh? That language was designed to be readable by anyone. The program would be as slow as molassis, ten times longer in the source, but still. Merely my suggestion. I like C as well, though I'm very rusty, having not written anything of length since the end of the semester in which I took the class, and then no more then two pages of source per assignment. From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com Mon Sep 1 17:20:14 1997 From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:20:14 +0800 Subject: Insight magazine - 8/25/97 and 9/1/97 cryptobits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <97Sep1.200149edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com> Arnaud DeBorchgrave had an editorial as the final word saying that there should be laws against cypherlaundering in the 8/25 insight (the one with the article on squalene being found in the gulf-war veterans). In the current (9/1) issue, apparently someone at commerce left with a few boxes with classified material including some documents saying which commercial encryption products the NSA could or could not break. --- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com --- From azur at netcom.com Mon Sep 1 17:55:18 1997 From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:55:18 +0800 Subject: The End of Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Tim May wrote: >>At 3:08 PM -0700 9/1/97, Steve Schear wrote: >> The End of Politics >> >>Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the >>founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall >>of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the >>ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000 >>A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.). > >I sure don't buy any analysis that starts with this kind of "periodicity >analysis" (Fourier analysis of history?). No doubt, with so few data points one cannot build a mathematically compelling case. > >Just for starters, these dates are highly arbitrary. The start of Roman >influence in a major way was 100 B,C. It may be somewhat self-serving but in light of the past few hundred years history, few (except Italians) would see the founding of Rome as significant as the invention of democracy. >or so, the death of that Jesus guy >was a minor event (the real event was the rise of the Church, in Rome, >during the next few centuries, I think you'd get some major disagreements with that one. >and esp. with Constantine). Many historians do not see Constantine's empire as truly the continuation of the Roman Empire per se, but that of the church (an event which as you point out began with Jesus). >And the "Dark Ages" were misnamed. True, but relatively unimportant. >I was talking more about the The Norman Conquest was 1066, Yes, enabled by amoured cavelry which by that date had transformed warfare. the Crusades were >circa 1150-1250 (I forget the exact dates), and so on. > >And the Enlightenment, c. 1700. And the American and French Revolutions. >And the Industrial Age. And a huge amount of history, ups and downs, just >in the last century. The dates you pick, -500, 0, 500, 1000, 1500 are >artificial, selected to match a theory based on 500-year cycles. Sure, but almost any attempt to impose a large-scale structure on history is likely to come under such critcism, just as theories to explain the evolution of the universe's large-scale structure can be shot full of holes by 'local' anomolies (the exception proves the rule). If one accepts that the socio- politico- economic history may have chaotic aspects (e.g., Asimov's pyscho-history) then large-scale structures may be fleetingly exist. The true test is whether such attempts help explain or predict. We'll have to wait a while for that ;-) --Steve From rah at shipwright.com Mon Sep 1 18:51:02 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:51:02 +0800 Subject: Net Worth, net Work Message-ID: Now, kiddies, don't forget to swallow your milk before you read this. Don't want to blow it all out your nose... Cheers, Bob --- begin forwarded text Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:00:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Agre To: rre at weber.ucsd.edu Subject: Net Worth, net Work Resent-From: rre at weber.ucsd.edu Reply-To: rre-maintainers at weber.ucsd.edu X-URL: http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1664 X-Loop: rre at weber.ucsd.edu Precedence: list Resent-Sender: rre-request at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:09:08 -0700 From: Susan Evoy Subject: Net Worth, Net Work (2)- with directions [...] Please feel free to forward this to colleagues who may be interested in the topics of this conference. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Computer Professionals for Social Responsibilty * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Net Worth, Net Work: Technology & Values for the Digital Age Saturday and Sunday October 4 & 5 University of California - Berkeley Dwinelle Hall The "information highway" as a business model has generated major questions concerning privacy, security and free speech. It's clear that digitization does more than just turn analog activities into ones and zeroes. Many aspects of our society are greatly affected -- how we conduct business and how we work. This conference will focus on the burgeoning digital economy, especially its impact on wealth and jobs. We are moving into a new era for the workplace and some believe that we are reaching "the end of work," as we know it. This change has been compared by some to the social impact of the industrial revolution. The "digital revolution" is leading to both predictable and unforeseen transformations. Net Worth, Net Work: Technology & Values for the Digital Age will explore the many aspects of this epic social transformation. THE CONFERENCE AGENDA PANELS: Saturday, October 4 9:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. THE TECHNOLOGIES OF RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS What are the technologies that will make digital commerce work in a socially responsible manner? Nathaniel Borenstein of First Virtual and a panel of digital commerce experts will present an overview of the tools of the digital age and freewheeling discussion of their responsible use. ACCESS FOR ALL New technologies are rapidly changing what people need to know to compete effectively in the job market. It is increasingly evident that the technology revolution threatens to leave whole populations behind --despite improved access to computers in our communities. Many predict the long-term result will be a new generation of Americans mired in low-paying, menial jobs. This panel, organized by Madeline Stanionis of Access to Software for All People (ASAP), will explore access to technology as the basis for economic opportunity. FAIRLY FREE: Compensating Creators and Maximizing Access As the slogan goes, "information wants to be free" -- and in digital technologies there is a plethora of information. Computer libertarians sometimes find themselves at odds with commercial publishers, and in a sometimes uneasy relationship with creators -- writers, photographers, graphic artists -- who want to be fairly compensated when others profit from their work. What is the public's stake in translating traditional principles of copyright, piracy and fair use into the media environment of the 21st century? SHOW ME THE MONEY The economics of the digital age are quite different from that of our waning industrial world. From the "market of one" to global banking, value is no longer measured in tons or shiploads, but in much more difficult to measure units like "attention" and "clickstream." Speculation about the future in this area rivals some of the greatest science fiction ever written. The question is not only where are we going, but is there anything we do about it? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Saturday, October 4 6:30 - 8:00 p.m. GALA EVENT Berkeley Conference Center 2105 Bancroft Way, Berkeley Cocktail reception honoring Dr. PETER NEUMANN, 1997 recipient of CPSR's Norbert Wiener Award for his outstanding contributions to the field of Risk and Reliability in Computer Science. Reception tickets may be purchased without registering for the conference, for $30. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sunday, October 5 9:00 a.m. -12 noon WORKSHOPS: EXPLORING DIGITAL COMMERCE Twelve workshops will give hands-on information on such topics as creating community access; how will we work in the digital workplace; how will we define work-value and compensation; and many more important issues. For updated conference information, check our conference webpage at: http://www.cpsr.org/dox/home.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sunday, October 5 1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m. CPSR ANNUAL MEETING FREE AND OPEN TO EVERYONE Reports from the CPSR board and staff. Envisioning our Future - CPSR's Strategic Plan * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Conference Sponsors Corporate: Interval Research Corporation Internet Travel Network Pacific Bell Co-Sponsoring Organizations: Department of Computer Science, UCB School of Information Management and Systems, UCB International Computer Science Institute National Writer's Union Access to Software for All People * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AIR: United Airlines is the official airline of the conference. For a discount rate, call 800-521-4041 and refer to Meeting ID Code: 520YA HOTEL: Some rooms have been reserved at the Shattuck Hotel, in downtown Berkeley, a few blocks from the campus at $69 for Singles, and $79 for Doubles, plus 12% tax. To reserve, call by September 19th. Call in CA: 800-742-8825, Out-of-State: 800-237-5359, and refer to CPSR. DIRECTIONS: University of California - Berkeley visitor and parking information is available at: http://www.urel.berkeley.edu/urel_1/VisitorsCenter/visitor.html. PARKING: Parking on weekends is $3 (all in quarters in most lots) per day in any parking area not posted as "restricted." Parking behind Dwinelle Hall can be reached from Oxford Street by taking Cross Campus Drive (between Center Street and Allston Way). A campus parking map is available at: http://geogweb.berkeley.edu/CampusMaps.html. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * REGISTRATION Name_________________________________________________________ Address_______________________________________________________ City_________________________________ State________ Zip___________ Telephone__(_____)_________________ E-mail _________________________________ Payment method: Check___Visa___MC___ Card #________________________________ Exp. Date_____ Pre- registration (By 9/26) Late or On site CPSR members $65______ $75______ Non member $90______ $100______ New or Reactivating CPSR membership & registration $95______ $105______ Low income/student $30______ $35______ Wiener Award Ceremony rate for conference registrants $5______ $10______ OR to attend without registering for conference $30 _______ Additional donation to further CPSR's work $________ Total enclosed: $________ Scholarships available in limited quantity. Contact CPSR for information. Send completed registration form with payment to: CPSR, P.O. Box 717, Palo Alto, CA 94302 > -- > Susan Evoy * Deputy Director > http://www.cpsr.org/home.html > Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility > P.O. Box 717 * Palo Alto * CA * 94302 > Phone: (650) 322-3778 * Fax: (650) 322-4748 * Email: >evoy at cpsr.org --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Sep 1 18:59:44 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:59:44 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: <199709020326.XAA00192@crypt.com> Message-ID: <58mDce20w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Dave K-P writes: > > > > Information, please! > > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > > Don't "escrow" your keys. > Don't take advice from strangers. Don't ask, don't tell. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 1 19:47:29 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:47:29 +0800 Subject: Net Worth, nut Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:17 PM -0700 9/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote: >Now, kiddies, don't forget to swallow your milk before you read this. > >Don't want to blow it all out your nose... > >Cheers, As the Acting Chairperson of "Access to Tickets for All People," ATAP, I was disappointed to see so many relics of the Sixth Industrial Capitalist Era in this press release. Allow me to comment: >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >This message was forwarded through the Eat the Rich News Service (ETRNS). ... >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >Computer Professionals for Social Responsibilty >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >Net Worth, Net Work: >Technology & Values for the Digital Age > >Saturday and Sunday >October 4 & 5 >University of California - Berkeley >Dimwit Hall > > >THE TECHNOLOGIES OF RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS >What are the technologies that will make digital commerce work in a socially >responsible manner? Nathaniel Borenstein of First Virtual and a panel of >digital >commerce experts will present an overview of the tools of the digital age and >freewheeling discussion of their responsible use. ATAP applauds this choice of a keynote speaker. Based on his company's [censored by ATAP lawyers] products, which some have characterized as a form of snake oil, it is apparent that he will not soon become a Greedy Capitalist. Or at least not a rich one. >ACCESS FOR ALL >New technologies are rapidly changing what people need to know to compete >effectively in the job market. It is increasingly evident that the technology >revolution threatens to leave whole populations behind --despite improved >access >to computers in our communities. Many predict the long-term result will be >a new >generation of Americans mired in low-paying, menial jobs. This panel, >organized >by Madeline Stanionis of Access to Software for All People (ASAP), will >explore >access to technology as the basis for economic opportunity. ATAP demands that all who wish to attend this conference receive tickets without charge. Fair is fair. >longer >measured in tons or shiploads, but in much more difficult to measure units >like >"attention" and "clickstream." Speculation about the future in this area >rivals >some of the greatest science fiction ever written. The question is not only >where are we going, but is there anything we do about it? ATAP thinks this writer needs to take more SF classes. ATAP has never heard the neologism "clickstream." Perhaps high tech has been taken over English majors, intent on outyounging Mr. Young? >Cocktail reception honoring Dr. PETER NEUMANN, 1997 recipient of CPSR's >Norbert >Wiener Award for his outstanding contributions to the field of Risk and >Reliability in Computer Science. Reception tickets may be purchased without >registering for the conference, for $30. What about Access to Tickets for All People? What is this nonsense about charging money in a money-free, post-work era? ATAP says "Steal this Event." >Co-Sponsoring Organizations: >Department of Computer Science, UCB >School of Information Management and Systems, UCB >International Computer Science Institute >National Writer's Union Which explains the "clickstream" stupidity. But not "face time" or "competing for eyeballs." >Access to Software for All People >AIR: United Airlines is the official airline of the conference. >For a discount rate, call 800-521-4041 and refer to Meeting ID Code: 520YA I assume that United is providing free tickets for all people? (A puzzle: If we are in a post-work age, who is flying the planes?) >HOTEL: Some rooms have been reserved at the Shattuck Hotel, in downtown >Berkeley, a few blocks from the campus at $69 for Singles, and $79 for The Shattuck Hotel will presumably be providing Access to Rooms for All People (ARAP, as in "That's ARAP.). > Pre- registration (By 9/26) Late or On site > >CPSR members $65______ $75______ >Non member $90______ $100______ >New or Reactivating CPSR membership > & registration $95______ $105______ > >Low income/student $30______ $35______ >No income/Cypherpunk $0_______ $0______ What's all this stuff about money in a post-money, post-work, clickstreaming age? --Klaus! von Future Prime, Acting Chairperson, Access to Tickets for All People There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From attila at hun.org Mon Sep 1 21:11:21 1997 From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:11:21 +0800 Subject: "French kiss NSA/BXA" In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970901185733.0083cff4@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: <199709020359.VAA17707@infowest.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970901:1457 John Young expostulated: [snip] +It looks as though the fall crypto campaign is about to open with a +rush, worldwide. Stories being fed to journalists, draft regs being +dealt to collaborators, license approvals for sure bettors. Up-yours to +all the rest who don't want to, in smooth-tongue Stewart Baker's +phrase, "French kiss NSA/BXA." French kiss? kiss my what? sorry, folks, they will not even get my key when they pry my still smokin' weapon from my cooling hand. "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other." --Benjamin Franklin ______________________________________________________________________ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBNAuNZL04kQrCC2kFAQGhYAQAi4mGdFzKwTUuvXYldrIUOaJpsPDlEDN2 +OWTtSUnrTRq58b94oAt6fh0o18i9x/B9Wrvz8WyiTVuGzySNJrL+sEe0ZG1NgAJ hDJ056ngtIPO2iBDALamy+d8/t8ZKMm7RxhhY6jT76gjHsFGpkMD707S6GSoSxHM TYhlXE/5XWM= =GRkC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From attila at hun.org Mon Sep 1 21:11:48 1997 From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:11:48 +0800 Subject: Diana: is tcmay cp's official rep? Message-ID: <199709020359.VAA17702@infowest.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Diana: is tcmay cp's official rep? ______________________________________________________________________ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBNAuM1r04kQrCC2kFAQFIFQP9E8PiFhEHOnRS6YJMBcJsrznMlEr2wZR/ F4fe3hDCxr0cSF4sHIfg96fIxmXrHHR6rjotz/zxEXmkuQdVlpOQ1Lj7HU0o793G EdBCkEQ5Jo50Evv1hC0LKJzPdU09rSKhBfEwDysuLb2UgVkY2Ln4OELjsW5Pq19Y f5KitV/Fb+c= =eZBb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From blancw at cnw.com Mon Sep 1 21:14:37 1997 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:14:37 +0800 Subject: The End of Politics Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970901202355.013e23d0@cnw.com> Steve Schear wrote: > The End of Politics > >Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the >founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall >of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the >ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000 >A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.). ........................................................... I'm so curious to know what occasioned this burst of insight and historical perspective from you, Steve? This is because, just by coincidence, I was up into the wee hours of this morning and happened to be perusing the MS Bookshelf Chronology of History. Looking through the dates on which certain events occurred - political, scientific, artistic, etc., I also was noting the changes which took place in 500 yr (or so) measures, just for comparison. I was noting when certain changes occurred in civilization which would mark major points of (to me) "advancement". The Chronology that I was looking at is a very simplified and limited one, so my examination was constrained to the list offered. Depending on which sector of activity one is looking at, it is possible to note areas of progress, discovery, or regression. But in looking at the vocabulary, in the way which many events are described, I also noted that the terms which were used to identify things is permeated with the ideas of politics, of descriptions by reference to relative positions of control in the human context; then, as more facts about the world beyond the proximate social schemas are revealed, concepts and ideas are apprehended in a broader context, to include more extensively the other elements of the Universe, and the descriptive terms change accordingly, becoming more objective (more in terms of "things as they are", rather than so much in terms of human relationships, of comparative positions of social influence). In considering their understanding of things, it is like the expression, "to someone with a hammer everything looks like a nail". To the ancestral evolving minds, the relationships of each to others, the jockeying for the more favorable positions over each other, was paramount. As it becomes easier to pursue the curiosities of Nature, develop artistic interests, and achieve practical solutions to Life's problems, the attention transforms from those earlier concerns to a concentrated pursuit of knowledge and to an increased, augmented perspective on what is Important and what are the Real Problems (and what are the actual working solutions). Existence then takes on a different perspective - it does not seem as dangerous (other people don't seem as threatenting) when a person has achieved mastery over the elements and forces of Nature. And this difference in understanding is reflected in the vocabulary. At least, that is what occurred to me as I was looking at the historical timeline. .. Blanc From nobody at REPLAY.COM Mon Sep 1 21:38:03 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:38:03 +0800 Subject: Hey Message-ID: <199709020420.GAA27612@basement.replay.com> bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu wrote: > > :: > Encrypted: PGP > > -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- > Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 > MessageID: yV9u2hakLFv9/SGjemJH0AuGYsBQ1cOE > > hQCMA/HAD1cfk+qpAQQAwuEDcaGfi1QCu84QklmpWe0AtyQUKGvkIuT8cEXt/ePS > G1QAGQBHNRPvsN92ORDxPY5K+JgeS4b8ZpRJ+C9pSFwtzJXyoSaPSWLVLe//GU4y > H+yeO8kMmK2qbbthgDD1D/00sXbrQsqEbIyz2al/bRIFzalS8UHQg4Olg7hTjpGl > AY608e0OyKO78dPdEGeRYH5PwW6BLgppULjR17+Puo0ukIqwcItJlYPx7K2AgNtA > 9sDlymr5h+cMky+BbrFWoi8QZEBrHvhXckXuPWHDlrmxTzd362m2R9G3/4TLlMjK > j6q2TD5DA0CT/g1ETK3J0y+7cFfuGp6oP2PhP27VCBW6maIp1Z35K3yNy7vytrTE > qDuJtcF2lvDAYKBcKr0lk6fBuGfRRZge3ZlAOgo/t5KPSGou/KlkHb2eR20vWqUM > Z2xcTkn5Y+ZJsPb/k9sOe8vKGK38IGYZdv2nj3k7MQvCIIuwAc37XIiC53mWAP8V > mIISGuYa2DgcxkdEy/rW0vd3AbhRzNGHp4u4zpjK/r2kTDGYGBURZFv2dC24KmcT > sgGYqYhYFY2/xmwiQgNKaRlMgrhRJZ8ytLxSCQts1pZhbImf2BFFBNshSIPUiZIn > 4fEPvD0lgJjC7jkkwAjEfN3E8DSCORs7GzKY1/Psr5ZZkEKVezv2blL+5YjYff+H > vfqgXkeGKOgXNUT1lNZZWA== > =wuTx > -----END PGP MESSAGE----- I find this highly unlikely. If you check the archives, you will find that this has been discussed previously on the list, and has been discounted by anyone with a modicum of reason. From remailer at bureau42.ml.org Mon Sep 1 21:49:52 1997 From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:49:52 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Steve Schear wrote: > >Tim May wrote: > It may be somewhat self-serving but in light of the past few hundred years > history, few (except Italians) would see the founding of Rome as > significant as the invention of democracy. History is relative. I see neither or the these as being of as great a significance as the first time I got laid. > >or so, the death of that Jesus guy > >was a minor event (the real event was the rise of the Church, in Rome, > >during the next few centuries, > > I think you'd get some major disagreements with that one. No. No one disagrees with that one. > Many historians do not see Constantine's empire as truly the continuation > of the Roman Empire per se, but that of the church (an event which as you > point out began with Jesus). The church began with the invention of money. The papacy began with the invention of bingo. The reformation was begun by sore losers who never won anything at bingo. Jewry began with a jeweller who had agraphia. (1) (1) "I Know About All That Old Shit" by the History Guy HistoryMonger From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 1 21:52:38 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:52:38 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? Message-ID: Item: Getting a transponder or bar-coded "EZ Pass" for your vehicle is completely voluntary....but if you don't have one of these transponders or passes, you'll have to go to the "manual" lane...Oh, and it seems that due to budget cutbacks we're short on staff and so you'll have to wait a while...maybe _quite_ a while. (Plus, while you're waiting maybe we'll just snap a photo of your license plate anyway, as you might be a terrorist or Mann Act felon trying to evade our surveillance....) Item: The U.S. is proud to call its tax system "voluntary," in terms of what citizens report. (The voluntary term was never that participation was voluntary, only that a tax collector did not show up in person and decide what a person owed.) However, to ensure compliance with the voluntary part, citizen-units will find that their bank narcs them out to FinCEN and IRS, and that electronic intercepts of financial dealings are common, and that "compliance audits" are far more draconian than ordinary citizen-units imagine. Item: Key recovery is purely voluntary. Unless you try to communicate with foreigners. Unless you are involved in any communications with drug dealers, money launderers, terrorists, child pornographers, or any other Horsemen. (Wouldn't you really rather play it safe and use the Government Approved Krypto?) Item (in the Very Near Future): "But, Mr. and Mrs. Zludnick, the ChildFinder (TM) implant is painless and quick. Based on the technology used to find lost pets, ChildFinder (TM) allows authorities in public places to scan for kidnapped or lost children. Surely you'd want your daughter to have access to this technology? While completely voluntary--after all, Mr. Zludnick, we are still a democracy, aren't we?--you should be aware that the school nurse will be most unhappy if your children are not ChildFinder-compatible. Not to mention the teachers who count on using RollTaker (TM) to automatically take the roll of students. And your children will have to take tests in special rooms, and checked for evidence of identity spoofing. All in all, Mr. and Mrs. Zludnick, I think you can see the problems. Why, in a sense, it would be a kind of child abuse, don't you think, to make your little Johnny and Suzy such oddities in the class. I'm sure you wouldn't Child Protective Services to make one of their "visits," would you? They're oh-so-thorough in uncovering signs of an unwholesome home environment. And then where would you be? So, can I assume you'll be volunteering?" What we are seeing is an Orwellian abuse of the English language. Programs are introduced as "voluntary" ones, but the alternatives are either deliberately made time-consuming and annoying, or the alternatives are just dropped completely. (I'm not talking about what private individuals or companies ask for. Alice's Restaurant is free to require patrons to wear silly hats, as it is their property. What I'm confining my comments to is the "mandatory voluntary" nature of more and more government programs.) The airline bag confirmation system is an in-between situation. It is partly a security matter to require bags be correlated with actual flying passengers...cuts down on bombs sent in bags. But it is also a surveillance/tracking issue, and the airlines are playing the tune the government calls for. (Else why would airlines not accept passengers who a) in fact board the plane, and b) pay in cash for their tickets? It used to be this way. No more. Now they demand a True Name, regardless of how easy it is to buy phony documents. If I can buy a phony set, or can even make up my own, imagine what actual terrorists can do.) And there's the whole issue of Social Security Cards. My card, issued in 1969, says it's not be used for any purposes except SS and income tax matters. Tell that to the many agencies, public and corporate, demanding it. The point? Our privacy is being "escrowed." The automobile transponders and barcoded vehicle passes are touted as voluntary, but they really are not. Chaumian, identity-protecting technologies need to be deployed. Frankly, I think Cypherpunks are getting off track with all the recent focus on "old" technologies (which I'll leave unspecified, as my point is not to attack certain pet projects). The real stuff is going undone. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 1 22:01:16 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:01:16 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? Message-ID: Oh, I left out one of the best examples of this Orwellian doublethink about what "voluntary" means. Item: "You may volunteer to let the nice officers boarding this bus search your bags without any kind of search warrant or probable cause. Most of you will readily volunteer, as you "have nothing to hide." However, failure to volunteer will then mark you as a probable hider of something, and the police officers will then have "probable cause" to search your bags. Have a nice day." This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present. (No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the Supremes decided the case....I can hope they ruled it a clear violation of the Fourth. But I don't remember. Regardless of the outcome, for now, it shows the Orwellian concept of "mandatory voluntary" at work.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From scuttle at alias.cyberpass.net Mon Sep 1 22:19:08 1997 From: scuttle at alias.cyberpass.net (Scuttle) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:19:08 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: <199709020451.VAA19798@sirius.infonex.com> At 08:00 PM 9/1/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote... >Dave K-P writes: > >> > > > Information, please! >> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. >> > Don't "escrow" your keys. >> Don't take advice from strangers. >Don't ask, don't tell. Don't eat yellow snow. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Sep 1 23:14:24 1997 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:14:24 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970901230224.03062280@popd.ix.netcom.com> The case was in Florida; I don't remember the name either. The officers got on the bus and told some passengers they wanted to search their bags. One passenger felt intimidated, but gave in, got busted for the drugs he was carrying, and appealed. The Supremes basically ruled that he should have known his rights, was not under arrest, and could have refused to consent, but that since he did consent to the intimidating well-armed gentlemen blocking his exit from the bus, it's not their problem. Not the kind of ruling I'd hope for, but it does at least make it clear that just because the police tell you you have to consent, that doesn't mean you _do_ have to consent. On the other hand, the police can arrest you for no particularly good reason for up to 48 hours, which kind of puts a crimp in your Greyhound ticket. If you don't mind joining the ACLU, an ACLU card isn't bad ID to give a cop who demands one .... don't leave home without it. At 09:53 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote: >Item: "You may volunteer to let the nice officers boarding this bus search >your bags without any kind of search warrant or probable cause. Most of you >will readily volunteer, as you "have nothing to hide." However, failure to >volunteer will then mark you as a probable hider of something, and the >police officers will then have "probable cause" to search your bags. Have a >nice day." > >This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus >passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to >volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From vijo at vikram.svrec.ernet.in Mon Sep 1 23:31:58 1997 From: vijo at vikram.svrec.ernet.in (Vijo Cherian) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:31:58 +0800 Subject: snuffle.c (was Re: Reuter on Bernstein Ruling) In-Reply-To: <199708262215.XAA01021@server.test.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote: You ->> You ->>snuffle and unsnuffle are only 64 lines each... so here they are. You You ->>need snefru also (snuffle for those not following is a construction to You ->>convert a hash function into an encryption function ... Bernstein's You ->>example is set up to use snefru ... a hash function). How can I get snefru and the detailed snuffle algorithm? I am not from USA(I am from India)....I also wanted the perl implementations of the algos..... I heard that C implementation of DES is also available for public use... I donot want to break any law...and i donot know what exactly the US say about encryption and related stuff... TIA bye, vijo *********** _/ _/ Vijo Cherian _/ _/ Final year undergraduate student, _/ _/ _/ _/ /__/_/ Computer Engineering, _/ _/ _/ _/ / |/ SVREC,Surat _/ _/ _/ | |/ India _/ | |/ vijo at svrec.ernet.in _/ -/ \____ / vijo at acm.org -/_/_/ *************************************** From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Sep 2 00:20:59 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:20:59 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970902001252.006e3cd8@pop.sirius.com> At 11:38 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote: >This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus >passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to >volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present. > >(No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took >place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the >Supremes decided the case... This sounds like _Florida v. Bostick_, 501 U.S. 429 (1991), on the web at . Bill Stewart's summary of the case looked like a good one to me. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 00:24:49 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:24:49 +0800 Subject: India's Crypto Laws In-Reply-To: <199708262215.XAA01021@server.test.net> Message-ID: At 10:18 PM -0700 9/1/97, Vijo Cherian wrote: > How can I get snefru and the detailed snuffle algorithm? >I am not from USA(I am from India)....I also wanted the perl >implementations of the algos..... > I heard that C implementation of DES is also available for public use... >I donot want to break any law...and i donot know what exactly the US >say about encryption and related stuff... Well, for starters, what are the laws about crypto use in India? (I'm serious. None of our Indian list subscribers, that I can recall, has carefully stated what the Indian laws are.) If it isn't illegal in India, what do you care what some laws in the U.S.A. say? I certainly don't let whatever the laws are in India, or Botswana, or Germany, or Latvia dictate my actions in the U.S. So, when you say "I donot want to break any law," how do you think you could be breaking any laws that bind you? (If you are concerned that using DES could cause you to be subject to kidnapping and wrapping in a Persian carpet by one of the NSA's snatch teams, I expect you have little to worry about. Noriega was kidnapped and spirited out of Panama because he knew the details of Bush's CIA dealings in Panama. I expect you have nothing that scares them.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 00:49:29 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:49:29 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:12 AM -0700 9/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote: >At 11:38 PM 9/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote: >>This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus >>passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to >>volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present. >> >>(No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took >>place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the >>Supremes decided the case... > >This sounds like _Florida v. Bostick_, 501 U.S. 429 (1991), on the web at >=429>. > >Bill Stewart's summary of the case looked like a good one to me. Thanks, I guess, to all of you who sent further information on this case. I'm chagrinned at this repetitive pattern, though: all it takes is a "I don't remember" for a thread to be completely dominated by helpful comments, clarifications, etc. (Ditto for any question even remotely impinging on financial or tax advice, which is why I almost always include requests that helpful tax advice not be sent to me. I can't seem to mention tax issues without a bunch of helpful souls sending me their ideas on how to beat taxes by incorporating myself in Andorra and then hiring myself as a consultant to the Andorran embassy in California, or whatever.) One strategy I've considered is to never, never, ever admit that I don't know something, as this will forestall the corrections, expansions, clarifications, and citings. Or to express things more elliptically. It pays to be Young. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From amp at pobox.com Tue Sep 2 00:58:37 1997 From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:58:37 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Item: "You may volunteer to let the nice officers boarding this bus search > your bags without any kind of search warrant or probable cause. Most of you > will readily volunteer, as you "have nothing to hide." However, failure to > volunteer will then mark you as a probable hider of something, and the > police officers will then have "probable cause" to search your bags. Have a > nice day." > > This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus > passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to > volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present. > > (No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took > place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the > Supremes decided the case....I can hope they ruled it a clear violation of > the Fourth. But I don't remember. Regardless of the outcome, for now, it > shows the Orwellian concept of "mandatory voluntary" at work.) ---------------End of Original Message----------------- >From http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/data/us/501/429. html FLORIDA v. BOSTICK CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF FLORIDA No. 89-1717 Argued February 26, 1991 Decided June 20, 1991 As part of a drug interdiction effort, Broward County Sheriff's Department officers routinely board buses at scheduled stops and ask passengers for permission to search their luggage. Two officers boarded respondent Bostick's bus and, without articulable suspicion, questioned him and requested his consent to search his luggage for drugs, advising him of his right to refuse. He gave his permission, and the officers, after finding cocaine, arrested Bostick on drug trafficking charges. His motion to suppress the cocaine on the ground that it had been seized in violation of the Fourth Amendment was denied by the trial court. The Florida Court of Appeal affirmed, but certified a question to the State Supreme Court. That court, reasoning that a reasonable passenger would not have felt free to leave the bus to avoid questioning by the police, adopted a per se rule that the sheriff's practice of "working the buses" is unconstitutional. Held: 1. The Florida Supreme Court erred in adopting a per se rule that every encounter on a bus is a seizure. The appropriate test is whether, taking into account all of the circumstances surrounding the encounter, a reasonable passenger would feel free to decline the officers' requests or otherwise terminate the encounter. Pp. 433-437. (a) A consensual encounter does not trigger Fourth Amendment scrutiny. See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 19, n. 16. Even when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask the individual questions, Florida v. Rodriguez, 469 U.S. 1, 5-6, ask to examine identification, INS v. Delgdo, 466 U.S. 210, 216, and request consent to search luggage, Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 501, provided they do not convey a message that compliance with their requests is required. Thus, there is no doubt that, if this same encounter had taken place before Bostick boarded the bus or in the bus terminal, it would not be a seizure. Pp. 434-435. (b) That this encounter took place on a bus is but one relevant factor in determining whether or not it was of a coercive nature. The state court erred in focusing on the "free to leave" language of Michigan v. Chesternut, 486 U.S. 567, 573, rather than on the principle that those words were intended to capture. This inquiry is not an accurate measure of an encounter's coercive effect when a person is seated on a bus about to depart, has no desire to leave, and would not feel free to leave [501 U.S. 429, 430] even if there were no police present. The more appropriate inquiry is whether a reasonable passenger would feel free to decline the officers' request or otherwise terminate the encounter. Thus, this case is analytically indistinguishable from INS v. Delgado, supra. There, no seizure occurred when INS agents visited factories at random, stationing some agents at exits while others questioned workers, because, even though workers were not free to leave without being questioned, the agents' conduct gave them no reason to believe that they would be detained if they answered truthfully or refused to answer. Such a refusal, alone, does not furnish the minimal level of objective justification needed for detention or seizure. Id., at 216-217. Pp. 435-437. 2. This case is remanded for the Florida courts to evaluate the seizure question under the correct legal standard. The trial court made no express findings of fact, and the State Supreme Court rested its decision on a single fact - that the encounter took place on a bus - rather than on the totality of the circumstances. Rejected, however, is Bostick's argument that he must have been seized because no reasonable person would freely consent to a search of luggage containing drugs, since the "reasonable person" test presumes an innocent person. Pp. 437-440. ------------------------ Name: amp E-mail: amp at pobox.com Date: 09/02/97 Time: 02:24:20 Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp Have you seen http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum ------------------------ "The Legislature interprets the Constitution as damage, and routes around it." For the benefit of Spambots everywhere: webmaster at localhost abuse at localhost postmaster at localhost From vijo at vikram.svrec.ernet.in Tue Sep 2 03:58:54 1997 From: vijo at vikram.svrec.ernet.in (Vijo Cherian) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:58:54 +0800 Subject: India's Crypto Laws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote: You ->>Well, for starters, what are the laws about crypto use in India? About crypto ,Indian law is silent...it does not put any restriction on individuals selling or explaining their algo or anything like that You ->>(I'm serious. None of our Indian list subscribers, that I can recall, has You ->>carefully stated what the Indian laws are.) You ->> You ->>If it isn't illegal in India, what do you care what some laws in the U.S.A. You ->>say? OK I will make it little more clear.I meant --I donot want anyone to break the law for me... and i donot what the laws are....Or how they censorship ......or anything like that You ->>I certainly don't let whatever the laws are in India, or Botswana, or You ->>Germany, or Latvia dictate my actions in the U.S. Even I donot You ->>So, when you say "I donot want to break any law," how do you think you You ->>could be breaking any laws that bind you? As I mentioned before,I did not make myself very clear when i told that. You ->>(If you are concerned that using DES could cause you to be subject to You ->>kidnapping and wrapping in a Persian carpet by one of the NSA's snatch You ->>teams, I expect you have little to worry about. Noriega was kidnapped and You ->>spirited out of Panama because he knew the details of Bush's CIA dealings You ->>in Panama. I expect you have nothing that scares them.) I never knew of all these........ Ok but the basic question remains CAN YOU HELP ME???? I am just starting my work for a paper on encryption algorithms.I am quite new in the feild....so just need some help TIA, vijo *********** _/ _/ Vijo Cherian _/ _/ Final year undergraduate student, _/ _/ _/ _/ /__/_/ Computer Engineering, _/ _/ _/ _/ / |/ SVREC,Surat _/ _/ _/ | |/ India _/ | |/ vijo at svrec.ernet.in _/ -/ \____ / -/_/_/ *************************************** From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 2 05:03:15 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:03:15 +0800 Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970902114357.0075f674@pop.pipeline.com> NSA and NIST will set up a new lab for evaluation of information-security products, including crypto algorithms: http://jya.com/nsa-nist.txt The lab will coordinate with other nations. Plans include eventual shifting the evaluation to private testing labs once accreditation standards are set. With critiques by Bruce Schneier and Steve Walker, and a slap from NCSA, which now provides testing, "They've been talking about this stuff for years." From rah at shipwright.com Tue Sep 2 06:02:11 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 21:02:11 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:42 am -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote: > Chaumian, identity-protecting technologies need to be deployed. > > Frankly, I think Cypherpunks are getting off track with all the recent > focus on "old" technologies (which I'll leave unspecified, as my point is > not to attack certain pet projects). > > The real stuff is going undone. So, Tim, what should we all be working on, in particular? Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From whgiii at amaranth.com Tue Sep 2 07:39:24 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:39:24 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199709021436.JAA08076@mailhub.amaranth.com> In , on 09/01/97 at 09:42 PM, Tim May said: >The real stuff is going undone. I must object to this. We at bomberpunks (TM) are getting the real work done. New and intresting technologies are currently being developed. Also further improvements in command and control, communications, stragic and tactical planning along with an increase of "in the field" training with numerious "freedom fighters" worldwide. Bomberpunks coming to a "soft target" near you. From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 09:04:29 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:04:29 +0800 Subject: Things we should be working on... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:43 AM -0700 9/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote: >At 12:42 am -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote: > > > >> Chaumian, identity-protecting technologies need to be deployed. >> >> Frankly, I think Cypherpunks are getting off track with all the recent >> focus on "old" technologies (which I'll leave unspecified, as my point is >> not to attack certain pet projects). >> >> The real stuff is going undone. > >So, Tim, what should we all be working on, in particular? OK, you asked. This isn't a comprehensive list. 1. Fully secure machine to machine connections for the Net, as in Gilmore's "SWAN" project. This makes the Net unsnoopable by the NSA and other TLAs, and makes encryption an automatic (at this level...individual users will of course still encrypt on top of this, as relying on others is never enough). 2. A usable form of Chaum's cash, a la Goldberg's or Schear's or Back's or whomever's implementation. An evolution of Magic Money, Hashcash, etc., using full strength algorithms. Backing can be decentralized. Less emphasis on deals with banks, more emphasis on guerilla deployment, a la PGP. (Initial uses may be for illegal things, which may be a good thing for deployment. Sex, for example, historically drives technologies like this. Thus, one might imagine combining blinded (no puns, please) cash with message pools to allow users to anonymously purchase JPEG images and have the resultant images placed in a pool for their later browsing. If done on a per image basis, for small amounts of digital cash, this could help users get their feet wet and gain familiarity. Integration into browsers would help.) 3. Distributed, decentralized data bases, a la Eternity, Blacknet, etc. My number one candidate: a commercial credit rating data base not bound by the U.S.' "Fair Credit Reporting Act." Let lenders and landlords find out the dirt on those who welshed on loans or who skipped out on leases, regardless of what the FCRA says. (This could technically be located today in any non-U.S. country, practically, but access by U.S. persons and corporations would have to be done circumspectly. A good use for blinded cash, of the _fully_ untraceable sort, e.g. payer- and payee-anonymous sort.) Ditto for ratings of doctors and lawyers. Some states in the U.S. are doing this, but under their strict state control. Why not laissez faire approaches, with user-inputted information? (I've written about this extensively. Cf. my Cyphernomicon, for example.) 4. Wider use of persisistent pseudonyms. Most of the "anonymous" posts we see are signed in cleartext with names like "TruthMonger," "BombMonger," etc., with little use of PGP sigs to ensure persistence. Spoofing is trivial. Checking sigs is up to the *end reader*, for example, to see that "Pr0duct Cipher" really is the same nym that's in the past posted as Pr0duct Cipher, but it might be useful for us to start really making more use of this sig checking, and even to maintain our own data base of nyms and their public keys, as a kind of demonstration testbed. 5. And so on. Cf. the archives, etc. for many, many things. What I meant be "the wrong stuff" is the recent focus on breaking simple ciphers that were known to be breakable 20 years ago...just a matter of applying the computons in the right way. All credit to Goldberg and all, but hardly accomplishing very interesting goals (helps Ian get a good job, that's certainly true). Maybe it'll cause slightly stronger crypto to be allowed for export...I don't really care too much about that. In fact, the whole focus on _exports_ and doing things to make exports easier is a _detour_, even a _derailment_. As I've said, I'll start worrying about Netscape getting a license when they start paying me. Until then, foreigners should just bypass what Netscape provides and use drop-ins. (In fact, monkeywrenching the status quo is better than helping Netscape and Microsoft get stronger crypto. For lots of obvious reasons.) My list above is not meant to be a "Strategic Plan." But clearly the Cypherpunks list has been slowly devolving into a gossip list, and a dumping ground for anonymous insults, drunken rambles, and a cheerleading group for predictable accomplishments and for corporate plans. (In particular, a large fraction of the Bay Area contingent now work(s) for various companies in crypto capacitites, even for crypto-focussed companies, and their edge, or at least their public utterance edge, has been dulled. One can speculate on some reasons. Too much talk about how to "help" PGP, Inc., for example, when PGP, Inc. is doing fairly ordinary crypto things and is in fact participating at some level in GAK talks. (I may get a nastygram from Phil on this, courtesy of helpful forwarders of my words to him...it's what I think.) Also, 95% of the crap about "digital commerce" is merely a distraction. The wrong direction, the wrong technology. Just "Visa on the Net," and hence of no real use for our sorts of goals. Worse, the wrong direction. I could rant on, but will spare you all. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jya at pipeline.com Tue Sep 2 09:26:34 1997 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:26:34 +0800 Subject: Crypto Bill HR 3011 Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970902155902.0083feb0@pop.pipeline.com> MSNBC reports today that one of the bills coming up in the congressional session is "H.R. 3011, an encryption bill which favors stripping all export restrictions and opposes any key escrow requirements." We've not been able to find this bill in the usual gov sites. Assuming that MSNBC got the info right, pointers to the bill would be appreciated. From agrapa at banamex.com Tue Sep 2 09:50:04 1997 From: agrapa at banamex.com (Arturo Grapa Ysunza) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:50:04 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: > > >>Dave K-P writes: >> >>>> > > > Information, please! >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. >>>Don't ask, don't tell. >>Don't eat yellow snow. >Don�t spit, just swallow. > From ericm at lne.com Tue Sep 2 10:13:55 1997 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:13:55 +0800 Subject: Beware free 'gifts' Message-ID: <199709021654.JAA22559@slack.lne.com> Spammed to Usenet news: >Subject: Check Em Out >Date: 1 Sep 1997 01:43:23 GMT >Organization: MediaOne SouthEast >Lines: 36 >NNTP-Posting-Host: surf219.pompano.net >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII >X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) > > > Discreet Research > > http://www.dresearch.com > > Background Checks, People Finder, Driving & Criminal Records & more! > * NOW WITH A RESELLER PROGRAM! > > Lost a friend or loved one? we can find em'! fast and cheap! > > Want to check out your mate ? we can! everything from there > driving record, bank account!, license tag trace (all legal!) > > > New Product : PHONE TRAPCARD > > Here's how this exciting new service works. You request who you > want a phonecard sent to. Discreet Research then sends your subject > a disguised gift packaged phonecard charged with 60 minutes of > calling time. Your subject will then use the card to make phone calls. > > Discreet Research will then notify you by fax, e-mail, or by phone with > a daily log that tells you the phone numbers your subject called, > & the phone numbers the calls were placed from. The trapline can trace > any type of phoneline even payphones! The phonecard is valid for 3 > months. > >We also offer a reseller program if you would like to get into the biz! > > > http://www.dresearch.com > e-mail : research at mediaone.net > I wonder how long this company would last if say James Kallstrom was 'tracked' using their 'trapcard'.... -- Eric Murray Chief Security Scientist N*Able Technologies www.nabletech.com (email: ericm at lne.com or nabletech.com) PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From sunder at brainlink.com Tue Sep 2 10:27:34 1997 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:27:34 +0800 Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970902114357.0075f674@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, John Young wrote: > NSA and NIST will set up a new lab for evaluation of > information-security products, including crypto algorithms: > > http://jya.com/nsa-nist.txt > > The lab will coordinate with other nations. Plans include > eventual shifting the evaluation to private testing labs > once accreditation standards are set. > > With critiques by Bruce Schneier and Steve Walker, > and a slap from NCSA, which now provides testing, > "They've been talking about this stuff for years." Uh huh, yeah, we'll be getting the NSA to review security... Joy. I can see it now. "Single DES is very safe. 40 bit keys are more than enough..." Even with Bruce on this, it doesn't warm my trust to them... =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Sep 2 10:34:20 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:34:20 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? In-Reply-To: <199709021436.JAA08076@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: "William H. Geiger III" writes: > In , on 09/01/97 > at 09:42 PM, Tim May said: > > >The real stuff is going undone. > > I must object to this. > > We at bomberpunks (TM) are getting the real work done. New and intresting > technologies are currently being developed. Also further improvements in > command and control, communications, stragic and tactical planning along > with an increase of "in the field" training with numerious "freedom > fighters" worldwide. > > Bomberpunks coming to a "soft target" near you. Cool. Please nuke Washington, DC. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From declan at well.com Tue Sep 2 10:34:21 1997 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:34:21 +0800 Subject: Crypto Bill HR 3011 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970902155902.0083feb0@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, John Young wrote: > MSNBC reports today that one of the bills coming up > in the congressional session is "H.R. 3011, an encryption > bill which favors stripping all export restrictions and > opposes any key escrow requirements." > > We've not been able to find this bill in the usual gov sites. > Assuming that MSNBC got the info right, pointers to the bill > would be appreciated. Yet another example of MSNBC's fine reporting. H.R. 3011 is the bill number for last year's SAFE bill (which was an improvement over this year's, BTW): ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/h3011.ih.txt This year's SAFE bill is H.R. 695. -Declan From sandro at pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br Tue Sep 2 10:43:04 1997 From: sandro at pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br (Sandromar Ferreira) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 01:43:04 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <340C4C6D.77807D84@bbamerindus.com.br> Arturo Grapa Ysunza wrote: > > > > > >>Dave K-P writes: > >> > >>>> > > > Information, please! > >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > >>Don't eat yellow snow. > >Don�t spit, just swallow. Don't touch anything. From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 11:00:06 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:00:06 +0800 Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970902114357.0075f674@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: At 10:12 AM -0700 9/2/97, Ray Arachelian wrote: >Uh huh, yeah, we'll be getting the NSA to review security... Joy. I can >see it now. "Single DES is very safe. 40 bit keys are more than >enough..." Even with Bruce on this, it doesn't warm my trust to them... Now, Ray, you're being too harsh. When NSA/NIST sought the analysis of Clipper/Tessera several years ago, the distinguished panel met for a weekend in a D.C. area hotel and concluded...drum roll...that Clipper/Tessera was secure. Of course, Matt Blaze broke the Tessera version a few months later.... NSA has long had a dual mission. SIGINT and COMINT to break enemy messages, and COMSEC to help ensure national security through strong crypto. Code breakers and code makers. For government uses, this has worked pretty well, most of us would agree. ICBM launch codes are apparently secure, submarines can communicate securely, etc. (Please don't chime in with anecdotes about Walker.) Some believe they have a role in helping industry to secure its communications. I don't agree. The NSA has no business getting involved in business. Period. NIST (formerly NBS, of course) may have a role, but I doubt even this. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From whgiii at amaranth.com Tue Sep 2 11:54:09 1997 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 02:54:09 +0800 Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199709021848.NAA10856@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In , on 09/02/97 at 10:51 AM, Tim May said: >At 10:12 AM -0700 9/2/97, Ray Arachelian wrote: >>Uh huh, yeah, we'll be getting the NSA to review security... Joy. I can >>see it now. "Single DES is very safe. 40 bit keys are more than >>enough..." Even with Bruce on this, it doesn't warm my trust to them... >Now, Ray, you're being too harsh. When NSA/NIST sought the analysis of >Clipper/Tessera several years ago, the distinguished panel met for a >weekend in a D.C. area hotel and concluded...drum roll...that >Clipper/Tessera was secure. >Of course, Matt Blaze broke the Tessera version a few months later.... >NSA has long had a dual mission. SIGINT and COMINT to break enemy >messages, and COMSEC to help ensure national security through strong >crypto. Code breakers and code makers. >For government uses, this has worked pretty well, most of us would agree. >ICBM launch codes are apparently secure, submarines can communicate >securely, etc. (Please don't chime in with anecdotes about Walker.) >Some believe they have a role in helping industry to secure its >communications. I don't agree. The NSA has no business getting involved >in business. Period. >NIST (formerly NBS, of course) may have a role, but I doubt even this. I do not see how NIST could have any role in the private sector as long as they maintain their cozy relationship with the government especially the NSA. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBNAxSAY9Co1n+aLhhAQH/dwP7BATbMQ8Y5/muQ2jj7XtIk8Aty6XggaAm BC2FDwjcsWGSgj+y9jMJaHumnKbMXBtX6zZtzCWE/I6PmRD6t2vRnRwQFu/dRk1D zPTVlIq5W54fFsESVJn36tO4BgcI+IxZx/j2K7wUwkpCMSq6aXBoNqs44bTgPPzr q0+i/It0SHI= =he6z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 2 12:38:28 1997 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:38:28 +0800 Subject: Things we should be working on... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5uhpc1$vf2$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> In article , Tim May wrote: >All credit to Goldberg and all, but hardly accomplishing very interesting >goals (helps Ian get a good job, that's certainly true). Maybe it'll >cause slightly stronger crypto to be allowed for export...I don't really >care too much about that. > >In fact, the whole focus on _exports_ and doing things to make exports >easier is a _detour_, even a _derailment_. As I've said, I'll start >worrying about Netscape getting a license when they start paying me. >Until then, foreigners should just bypass what Netscape provides and >use drop-ins. I have to disagree here. The export issue is very important to me. For me, crypto export isn't about Netscape getting their 128-bit crypto overseas; it's about me being allowed to publish my research on the net, or give "technical assistance" to foreigners. As long as the current export regs are in place, my ability to publish, collaborate in, and by extension, perform, research in pure or applied cryptography is severely hampered. The effect the crypto regs have on me is that any time I want to actually _implement_ something and publish it, I have to wait for school breaks, go home (to Canada), do all of the work there, and publish it from there before I return to Berkeley. This obviously cuts down on the rate at which I can get things done. Americans don't even have this option. If not for problems like this, S/WAN would certainly be further along than it is now. - Ian From nes2 at nesnet.com Tue Sep 2 12:46:31 1997 From: nes2 at nesnet.com (National Engineering Search) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:46:31 +0800 Subject: Larry Weidner Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1445 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 12:55:19 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 03:55:19 +0800 Subject: New Candidates for Vengeance Message-ID: Lest people think it is only government stooges who burst into rooms and spray the occupants with bullets, here's a story about bounty hunters doing the same thing. Not the first time, either. Bounty hunters usually work for bail bondsmen, seeking to produce their witnesses. What has surprised me, in some reports I've seen recently on how they work and what their legal authority to enter homes is, is that they are apparently free to enter hotel rooms and private homes at will. One legal expert opined that a homeowner who shoots at them upon their entry is committing a crime, as they are not legally a threat. (Of course, how does a homeowner know this?) Here's an excerpt from the story: --- Tuesday September 2 2:50 PM EDT Police Pursue Arizona Bounty Hunters By David Schwartz PHOENIX(Reuter) - An intense manhunt was under way Tuesday for two bounty hunters who allegedly broke into the wrong house in a commando-style raid looking for a bail-jumper and shot and killed a young couple. Police said two men were in custody and another was under police guard in a hospital after the ski-masked group broke down the front door of the house, held young children at gunpoint and exchanged fire with the couple early Sunday. The bounty hunters apparently were looking for a bail jumper who owed a bond company $25,000, police said. Killed in the shoot-out were Christopher Foote, 23, and Spring Wright, his 21-year-old girlfriend. Their bedroom was riddled with at least 29 bullet holes. -- Seems to me we need a system which executes these several folks. AP is inefficient, but might work. People call me cold-blooded, calling for the death of tyrants, stooges, narcs, and other rifraff. But how can anyone read this story and not realize such scum need to be given a very quick trial and then disposed of? (This, by the way, is one reason folks should have guns in hotel rooms. Some hotels have policies against guns, but this applies only if one is found. And it's usually not a criminal violation, if the local gun laws allow shopkeepers and homeowners/renters to have guns (a few places don't, as we all know). A hotel room is one's temporary residence, as a tent in a campground is.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jf_avon at citenet.net Tue Sep 2 13:01:41 1997 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:01:41 +0800 Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #974 In-Reply-To: <199709021708.LAA11034@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> Message-ID: <199709021948.PAA14278@cti06.citenet.net> Excerpt from Canadian Firearms Digest V1 #974 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:08:33 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest at sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca To: cdn-firearms-digest at broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #974 Reply-to: cdn-firearms-digest at sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:25:42 -0600 From: "GoPlayer Kootenay" Subject: Is Our Government a Legitimate One? This is really just the beginning of what I hope will turn into true multi-logue among not only the RFC, but the Canadian people: What makes a government, at any level, "legitimate"? Is it a line or two in some Statute Book or Constitution, or is it the Continued Assent of The People That Are Governed? I think it's the second choice; our current government at the Canadian federal level thinks it's the first choice. It IS "against the law" to advocate, or to attempt, the ousting of the Canadian government by any method except by the process of voting. These laws were framed in a day when the ideals of Democracy were held high by Government, and the rights of the individual were of the order that the Libertarian movement advocate today. Government RESPECTED the wishes of the people, and generally didn't try to do any propaganda to mould public opinion (except in time of war against the common foe). In turn, the People respected their Government(s) and their laws and statutes, because their elected representatives truly strove to REPRESENT their constituents, and their concerns. Prime Ministers did not beat up on MPs that spoke their minds in favour of the folks "back home" in the Riding. Members of Parliament and Legislatures were honour-bound to resign at the first hint of involvement in Scandal. Times have changed. The Canadian People no longer respect their government, by and large. They do not believe that their elected representatives are much better than confidence-men. Canadians know that MP's and Members of Legislatures will follow what the Party Leader and his Cabinet decree. Ministers and Members no longer think of Scandal as something repugnant to Honour -- just as a temporary embarrassment. Their Leaders rarely pressure them to resign. Democracy is a mere shell of what it once was. Justice peeks through her blindfold when it suits her. Canadian Government has lost its legitimacy. It no longer has the True Assent of the People; it keeps its power by increasing its level of visible intimidation of the People, relying on Rule-by-Statute and Orders-In-Council. Canadians increasingly are afraid of their Government. And the Government knows that. In turn, the Government is increasingly estranged from the People, and passes Laws to coerce "desired behaviour", rather than Good Law that is a REFLECTION of the Peoples' morals and standards. I'm sure most of you have noticed the steep rise in the use of SWAT units to attend incidents where conventional uniformed police officers would have been the norm a decade ago. I'm certain that you have noticed an increasing lack-of-regard by the police for the rights of the Public. I know that most of you are aware that the police are tending to over-react in many clearly non-threatening situations -- take the Chilliwack BB gun incident, for example. And our police do what they are told by their bosses. Just like good little Germans did what they were told by their bosses not so long ago. Good little Canadians are becoming "good little Germans". Only the uniforms are different. When the Russians had had enough of their pre-1917 totalitarian royalist regime, they backed an equally-repressive revolutionary Communist regime. It took them over 70 years to dump that one. People will always opt for a "change", when they are pushed far enough. Bills C-17 and C-68 are just two examples of the Canadian government's thinking, "Perhaps the People *have* been pushed nearer the breaking point". It's food for careful thought. And speech. Shhhhh! - ------------------------------------------------------ From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 13:04:22 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:04:22 +0800 Subject: Things we should be working on... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:28 PM -0700 9/2/97, Ian Goldberg wrote: >In article , >Tim May wrote: >>All credit to Goldberg and all, but hardly accomplishing very interesting >>goals (helps Ian get a good job, that's certainly true). Maybe it'll >>cause slightly stronger crypto to be allowed for export...I don't really >>care too much about that. >> >>In fact, the whole focus on _exports_ and doing things to make exports >>easier is a _detour_, even a _derailment_. As I've said, I'll start >>worrying about Netscape getting a license when they start paying me. >>Until then, foreigners should just bypass what Netscape provides and >>use drop-ins. > >I have to disagree here. The export issue is very important to me. >For me, crypto export isn't about Netscape getting their 128-bit crypto >overseas; it's about me being allowed to publish my research on the net, >or give "technical assistance" to foreigners. As long as the current >export regs are in place, my ability to publish, collaborate in, and >by extension, perform, research in pure or applied cryptography is >severely hampered. Fair enough, and that's exactly what the focus of the Bernstein and Junger cases is on. The Washington nonsense would do essentially nothing about the issue of whether crypto is speech, and might even weaken the pending legal cases. > >The effect the crypto regs have on me is that any time I want to actually >_implement_ something and publish it, I have to wait for school breaks, >go home (to Canada), do all of the work there, and publish it from there >before I return to Berkeley. This obviously cuts down on the rate at which >I can get things done. Americans don't even have this option. If not >for problems like this, S/WAN would certainly be further along than it is >now. My understanding was that you had to do most of your work in Canada because of U.S. restrictions on those with student visas? Certainly you are just as much in violations of the EARS by going to Canada to do your crypto work as Rivest and Company would be in by crossing into Canada to develop stuff for RSADSI. Am I missing something here? --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Sep 2 13:24:06 1997 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:24:06 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: <199709022010.NAA20048@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On or About 2 Sep 97 at 14:27, Sandromar Ferreira wrote: > > >>>> > > > Information, please! > > >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > > >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > > >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > > >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > > >>Don't eat yellow snow. > > >Don't spit, just swallow. > > Don't touch anything. Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out. =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: (408) 259-2795 From camcc at abraxis.com Tue Sep 2 13:26:00 1997 From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec McCrackin) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:26:00 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970902151846.007d3c30@smtp1.abraxis.com> At 02:27 PM 9/2/97 -0300, you wrote: |Arturo Grapa Ysunza wrote: | |> >>Dave K-P writes: |> >> |> >>>> > > > Information, please! |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell. |> >>Don't eat yellow snow. |> >Don�t spit, just swallow. | >Don't touch anything. Don't touch _there_. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Sep 2 13:26:16 1997 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:26:16 +0800 Subject: SSZ is moving on 9-16-97... Message-ID: <199709022026.PAA09630@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, SSZ will be moving on the 16th. We are expecting no more than a couple of hours of downtime. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage at ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________| From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 13:33:32 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:33:32 +0800 Subject: Things we should be working on... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:28 PM -0700 9/2/97, Ian Goldberg wrote: >The effect the crypto regs have on me is that any time I want to actually >_implement_ something and publish it, I have to wait for school breaks, >go home (to Canada), do all of the work there, and publish it from there >before I return to Berkeley. This obviously cuts down on the rate at which >I can get things done. Americans don't even have this option. If not >for problems like this, S/WAN would certainly be further along than it is >now. One more question. Could you tell us which things you are talking about here, which things you returned to Canada to implement? (And was any of the "prep" work done here in the U.S.? My understanding of the EARs is that if any of the prep work--basic research, algorithm development, trial coding, etc.--was done in the U.S., then going to Canada to finish and release a piece of code is no protection, and in fact violates the EARs. This is, at least, the explanation given by RSADSI, PGP, Netscape, etc., for why they don't simply move their crypto experts offshore.) In any case, Ian, I think your examples would be very interesting to hear about. I think Dan Bernstein's "Snuffle" was not quite a serious piece of code. By this I mean that Snuffle was never used in a major way in any product (perhaps it could've been...I recall Schneier had some mention of it a while back in Dr. Dobbs, and I don't mean to imply it was not a good cipher, just that Bernstein's challenge was more to prove a legal point than to actually get Snuffle and whatnot available for export in real products), Ditto for Prof. Junger, whom I don't believe was actually threatened with prosecution. In both the Bernstein and Junger cases, and this is a credit to their initiative, they filed premptively, so to speak. They requested clarifications/permissions, and as Karn did, as Levien did (the t-shirt). I have seen no evidence that those publishing academic work in the journals, or even producing products, are being prosecuted under the ITARs or EARs. (The issues of whether a Web release constitutes "export" is of course a separate--and important--issue. And the issue of whether Ian, as a Canadian, can legally do work or sell products while on a student visa in America, is also a separate issue.) If you are actually going to Canada to release products, this might be even more interesting than either the Junger or Bernstein cases. Of course, if you discuss this openly, you may be inviting repercussions. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From spainhou at giex.coastalnet.com Tue Sep 2 13:40:38 1997 From: spainhou at giex.coastalnet.com (Joe Spainhour) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 04:40:38 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: <199709022025.QAA20934@giex.coastalnet.com> > |> >>Dave K-P writes: > |> >> > |> >>>> > > > Information, please! > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow. > |> >Don�t spit, just swallow. > | >Don't touch anything. > Don't touch _there_. Never piss into the wind. From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu Tue Sep 2 14:57:04 1997 From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 05:57:04 +0800 Subject: 90 degree turn Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults) Message-ID: <199709022146.RAA13693@www.video-collage.com> At 01:45 PM 8/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 08:57 PM 8/28/97 -0400, I wrote: >>I didn't find out about the Japaneese concentration camps until after I saw >>the karate kid and had it explained to me. As I had most of my high school >>career ahead of me at the time, that much info should have made me aware of >>the lessons covering them in my various high school history classes. Nearly >>every history class I have had has either stopped sometime around the end of >>the civil war, stayed in Oklahoma, ... > > Did the "Trail of Tears" expulsion of the Cherokee to > Oklahoma get covered? > Yes, it was covered. One chief's wife was commended on her bravery and self-sacrifice for giving her blanket to another woman, (and subsequently freezing to death, or something similar.) The blame was pinned on sub-contractors who were charged with feeding the Cherokee people but who often didn't, or who often left the food out hours in advance to spoil. In this particular Oklahoma history class lesson. Not once was an Oklahoman held responsible for the death of so many people. Most of it was given to the people occupying the states between Oklahoma and, I believe, Florida. From enoch at zipcon.net Tue Sep 2 15:34:40 1997 From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:34:40 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunk Action Items Message-ID: <19970902222123.7573.qmail@zipcon.net> From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Sep 2 15:51:40 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:51:40 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: <199709022232.AAA10117@basement.replay.com> > > |> >>Dave K-P writes: > > |> >> > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please! > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow. > > |> >Don�t spit, just swallow. > > | >Don't touch anything. > > Don't touch _there_. > Never piss into the wind. Don't pull on a psycho's cape. From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Sep 2 15:54:37 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:54:37 +0800 Subject: New Eternity Server? Message-ID: <199709022237.AAA10568@basement.replay.com> Tim May wrote: > Or to express things more elliptically. It pays to be Young. Is there an eternity server named "Forever Young?" Perhaps someone should start one up, and use it a place to send posts that don't really belong on any particular mailing list, because no one can quite figure out what they mean, but should be available to read somewhere, because they clearly say something that it is important to know, but nobody can quite figure out what it is. The web site could carry a "Je Ne Sais Quois" rating. JeNeSaisQuoisMonger From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Sep 2 15:54:43 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 06:54:43 +0800 Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!! Message-ID: <199709022231.AAA10065@basement.replay.com> Made you look! "We have met the public, and he is _us_." UsMonger From enoch at zipcon.net Tue Sep 2 16:07:28 1997 From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:07:28 +0800 Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!! Message-ID: <19970902225403.9059.qmail@zipcon.net> Nobody writes: > Made you look! > "We have met the public, and he is _us_." > UsMonger Now that pictures of Princess Diana trapped in the wreckage have been printed in European tabloids, it is only a matter of time before someone scans them and posts them to alt.binaries.pictures.tasteless. Clicking on such pictures, of course, is not the moral equivalent of having personally run Princess Diana off the road, regardless of what your neighborhood CPAC member would like you to believe. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ enoch at zipcon.com $ via Finger $ {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell} From biz4uin97 at compuserve.com Wed Sep 3 07:13:59 1997 From: biz4uin97 at compuserve.com (A Business Opportunity for you...) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: $50,000 IN 30 days, guaranteed! Message-ID: <19970903154LAA39382@drizzle.com> PLEASE, Read This Twice!! Dear friend, ================================================ ================================================ This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE" you were randomly selected to receive this. There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive no further mailings from us. If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION, please do not click reply, use the contact information in this message. Thank You! :-) ================================================ ================================================ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incured many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happend in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1995 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determining the program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an e-mail extracting and mass mail program. At http://microsyssolutions.com/raf In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. 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A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successfull for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happend to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. 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Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: Step (1) Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the REPORT requested to the person you are ordering it from. You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders. Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with your's, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and the address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!!! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!! Step (3) Having made the requested changes in the NAME list, save it as text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever e-mail program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists. Step (4) E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more than ever. Then, e-mail to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get e-mail addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS: ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ____________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Liberty Publishing Inc. 2107 W. Commonwealth Ave. Dept.264 Alhambra, CA 91803 ____________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: SOM Co. 2168 S. Atlantic Blvd. #101 Monterey Park, CA 91754 ____________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kal Inc. P.O. Box 2433 Glenview, IL. 60025-2433 ____________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: HENDON ENTERPRISES P.O. Box #188 Seguin, TX. 78156 ____________________________________________________ CONCLUSION: I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20-90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back. However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply. My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that cost me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also point out that this program is LEGAL and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam. At times you probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain lettters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck! ----------------------- Headers-------------------------------- >From RPM at treme.et Return-Path: Received: from bh1.jointcom.net.net (jointcom.net.com.au[206.243.199.12]) by mrin41.mail.aol.com (8.6.5/8.6.5/AOL-1.4.1) with ESMTP id baa16347; Received: from jointcom.net.com (1Cust86.Max12.hicksville.dC.Me.Ut.NET) Date: Today/1997/your time zone Received: from mailhost.rerols.com (164.56.68.46) by rerols.com To: you at aol.com Subject: SEE SUBJECT LINE ABOVE Message-ID: <756846494645.JJA63549 at smtp.rerols.com> X-UIDL: 982543fgt98235525nb0338mm632xx532 Comments: Authenticated sender is From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Sep 2 16:14:20 1997 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:14:20 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970902160546.00934b10@mail.io.com> Tim May wrote: >>>This was an actual case, heard by the Supreme Court several years back. Bus >>>passengers were given the opportunity to volunteer, as noted. Failure to >>>volunteer was construed as probable cause that contraband was present. >>> >>>(No, I don't know the name of the case. My recollection is that it took >>>place in Florida or one of the Carolinas. Nor do I recollect how the >>>Supremes decided the case... >> >>This sounds like _Florida v. Bostick_, 501 U.S. 429 (1991), on the web at >>>=429>. >> >>Bill Stewart's summary of the case looked like a good one to me. >[...] > >One strategy I've considered is to never, never, ever admit that I don't >know something, as this will forestall the corrections, expansions, >clarifications, and citings. One of the things that is - or can be - useful about a cross-disciplinary list like cpunks is that it's possible to read messages written by people who appear to have knowledge about other unfamiliar-to-the-reader fields, and have some confidence that the author isn't completely screwing up what they're writing about, because other list members are likely to speak up and say "Hey, you're not really getting that right..". I provided a case cite and agreed with Bill Stewart's reframing of the issues in the _Bostick_ case not because I imagined that it was especially interesting to you (Tim), but because I think we all lose out when bad information (like, for example, the idea that _Bostick_ is about probable cause, or that it held that failure to volunteer constitutes probable cause) is circulated, especially by people who are otherwise credible authors/speakers. A more useful way to avoid corrections/citations/clarifications might be simply getting the details correct in the first place. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles at netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Sep 2 17:04:49 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:04:49 +0800 Subject: WIPO Implementing Legislation Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: kaye at popd.ix.netcom.com X-Priority: 2 (High) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 14:22:54 -0700 To: From: Kaye Caldwell Subject: WIPO Implementing Legislation Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: member-sponsored-owner at commerce.net Precedence: bulk +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ This message was addressed to: member-sponsored at lists.commerce.net +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ TO: CommerceNet Members A member company has asked that we consider whether CommerceNet joins in the concern, as expressed by the Online Banking Association, that some provisions of HR 2281, the legislation implementing the WIPO treaties, undermine the objectives of the SAFE bill and have a negative effect on the development of encryption technologies. Specifically their concern is that Section 1201(a) will effectively prohibit encryption research and development in that it prohibits the manufacture and use of decryption technologies, which are used to test encryption technologies and make them more secure. They suggest that section (a) needs to be redrafted to prohibit the use of decryption technology to obtain unauthorized access to encryption works. My recommendation is that CommerceNet join in this concern and the recommendation for resolving it. Please let me know if your companies have any objection to CommerceNet doing so. Additional background information is available below. - Kaye Caldwell CommerceNet Policy Director ================= Background Information ========================== For reference, HR 2281 is available at: ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c105/h2281.ih.txt Section 1201(a) states: `(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL PROTECTION MEASURES- (1) No person shall circumvent a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. `(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that-- `(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; `(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or `(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person for use in circumventing a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. `(3) As used in this subsection-- `(A) to `circumvent a technological protection' means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological protection measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and `(B) a technological protection measure `effectively controls access to a work' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work. ============= End of Background Information ========================== =================================== Kaye Caldwell, Policy Director CommerceNet http://www.Commerce.net E-mail: KCaldwell at Commerce.net Phone: (408) 479-8743 Fax: (408) 479-9247 =================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager. Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to CommerceNet members, partners, and invited guests. For further information send a mail message to 'member-sponsored-request at lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations) contained in the body of your message. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 2 18:43:25 1997 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:43:25 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: <199709020326.XAA00192@crypt.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970902182818.006e2bac@popd.netcruiser> At 08:00 PM 9/1/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >> > > > Information, please! >> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. >> > Don't "escrow" your keys. >> Don't take advice from strangers. >Don't ask, don't tell. Never buy toilet paper, toothbrushes, or tampons at the Goodwill store. Jonathan Wienke What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution) When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police. PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1 3A8F 778A 7407 2928 DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA 4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred. US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users: Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/ Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html Other PGP 5.0 sources: http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/ http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/ ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 [Relevant for all recent discussions on "linking without permission", as well as the usual childpornhysteriamongering.] [1]SIDEBAR [2]Newsbytes Advertising Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular ****Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular 09/02/97 SEATTLE, WASHINGTON, U.S.A., 1997 AUG 29 (NB) -- By Bruce Miller. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) encourages the owners of Web sites to add a link that will bring up the picture of a different missing child every ten minutes. According to Ruben Rodriguez, Supervisor of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is getting 70 to 80 requests a day for information to create the link. Some sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves, including pornographic Web sites. "This is the kiss of death for us," said Rodriguez. "We want the public to help us find missing and exploited children. The Internet public is coming to us to display our banner on our sites. Unfortunately, there are some locations on the Internet that are inappropriate." One popular porn site proclaims on its home page that, "This Site Cares About Our Young Children! Please Take A Few Seconds To Look At The Pictures Of The Missing Children!! Every Ten Minutes When You Reload A Different Child's Picture Appears! If We Can Save Just ONE! Then Wouldn't That Be Worth It?" That particular site, said Rodriguez, will get a cease and desist letter from the Center's chief legal counsel. The popularity of linking to the rotating banner has added to another problem: load capacity on the Web server hosting the Center. With a million hits a day presently, and growing, the Center is looking around for a new site with greater capacity to eliminate congestion. For information about signing up with the banner program, send e-mail to banner at ncmec.com. Be patient, the popularity has put the staff a bit behind in responding. NCMEC's Web site is at [3]http://www.missingkids.com ; mirror site [4]http://www.missingkids.org . (19970902/Reported by Newsbytes News Network [5]http://www.newsbytes.com /EXKIDS/PHOTO) "The Pulse of the Information Age" Newsbytes News Network [6]http://www.newsbytes.com 24-hour computer, telecom and online news [7]Copyright �Newsbytes News Network. All rightsreserved. For more Newsbytes see http://www.newsbytes.com. [8]Home | [9]Daily | [10]Weekly | [11]Publishers | [12]Search References 1. http://www.newsbytes.com/menus/navbar.map 2. http://www.newsbytes.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.newsbytes.com/home.html 3. http://www.missingkids.com/ 4. http://www.missingkids.org/ 5. http://www.newsbytes.com/ 6. http://www.newsbytes.com/ 7. http://www.nbnn.com/copyrght.html 8. http://www.nbnn.com/home.html 9. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_daily.html 10. http://www.nbnn.com/news/s_week.html 11. http://www.nbnn.com/publishers/publi_1.html 12. http://www.nbnn.com/html_p/search.html From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu Tue Sep 2 18:44:28 1997 From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:44:28 +0800 Subject: t0902mt01.html Message-ID: <199709030152.VAA07782@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> [1][LINK] Calgary Herald BUSINESS _________________________________________________________________ Managing Your Money [2]Stock and Mutual Fund Quotes [3]Your Investments [4]Family Finance [5]Columns [6]Technology [7]Stock News [8]Search --> [9][LINK] [10]Calgary Herald Online Home Page [Main Menu............] __ Press group refuses to join Internet rating scheme Amy Harmon The Ottawa Citizen A group of major news organizations took the digital high road last week. The group members -- which include Time, CNN, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Associated Press -- said they would allow their online editions to be rendered invisible to some Internet users rather than conform to a rating system that screens material dealing with sex or violence. "We support open access to information on the Internet," the group said in a statement. "And we will not rate our sites." That such a proclamation would be necessary, that it would be hashed out in a tense meeting that was closed -- oddly, given its agenda -- to reporters and that it would be considered an important step forward by many of the executives participating is itself a commentary on the uncertain state of the free press on the Internet. But the electronic news publishers left unresolved the more baffling question of how to wedge such a seemingly routine commitment to the U.S. constitution's free-speech guarantees into the architecture of cyberspace and the cultural politics of the United States in the late 1990s. The bind that Internet news providers find themselves in began with the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling earlier this summer that the Communications Decency Act was unconstitutional. The court found that the law, which banned the transmission of indecent material to minors over computer networks, was an overly broad restriction on speech -- in part because existing technology would allow parents to control their children's access to such material. Eager to head off regulation, the online industry expressed enthusiasm for various rating systems at a meeting convened by the Clinton administration after the decision. Microsoft and Netscape, which together control the market for the browsers used to navigate the World Wide Web, agreed to incorporate a standard for ratings in the next release of their software. Theoretically, the standard (known awkwardly as the Platform for Internet Content Selection, or PICS) would allow any entity from Good Housekeeping to the Spice Girls to create a rating system. The browser would recognize all of them, and parents could choose the one that best fit their world view, or at least the lens they wanted their children to see through. But so far, the only major group to use PICS has essentially adapted to the Web a rating system designed for video games. Under the Recreational Software Advisory Council system, sites rate themselves on a scale of one to four for nudity, sex, violence and offensive language. The council, a non-profit association of entertainment and computer companies, performs random checks to make sure sites are representing themselves correctly. Parents can set the level of each category that they wish to screen for, and, significantly, unrated sites are blocked out. So far, about 40,000 of the Web's nearly one million sites have used the system. News sites, however, have for the most part found the ratings either inapplicable or abhorrent. "The rating of content, particularly in the area of violence -- to tell people whether they should or shouldn't read about war in Bosnia -- takes news and turns it into a form of entertainment," said Daniel Okrent, editor of new media at Time. It is perhaps not surprising that an entertainment-based rating system would be incapable of describing the vast quantities and qualities of information on the Internet. Religious organizations and government agencies are also reportedly unhappy with the Recreational Software Advisory Council's limitations. But the problem is more than just a given rating system. It is inherent in the technology -- or at least the purpose it is being used to achieve. Because to screen out certain material, like sexual images, every site has to be labelled in some fashion. "In the real world, you don't know what you're going to get before you get it," said Paul Resnick, one of the creators of PICS. "We're trying to create an online world where you do know what you're going to get, and once you set that as your priority, you have to start classifying things." To accommodate the concerns of news sites, the Recreational Software Advisory Council has proposed a "news" label that would rate by category, not by content. But that raises the question of how and who would define which sites would bear the designation. The ratings group had appealed to the Internet Content Coalition, a loose alliance of online news organizations that organized last week's meeting, to serve as a monitoring body. The idea was denounced by several attendees, but they did not offer a better one. _________________________________________________________________ We welcome your suggestions; send e-mail to [11]online at theherald.southam.ca This web site is a supplement to the Calgary Herald, a daily newspaper published in [12]Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Contents copyright 1996. [ [13]Calgary Herald Home Page ] References 1. http://ads.galaxy.southam.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.ch.com/b-mm-m-1.htm 2. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/finance/stocks&funds/overview.pl?paper=calgaryherald 3. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/investments/investments.html 4. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/familyfinance/familyfinance.html 5. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/columns/columns.html 6. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/technology/technology.html 7. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/markets/marketsmenu.html 8. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ch&file=/business/search/searchch.html 9. http://ads.galaxy.southam.com/OAS/rm/try-it.cgi/www.ch.com/b-mm-b-1.htm 10. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald 11. mailto:online at theherald.southam.ca 12. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald/almanac/almanac.html 13. http://www.southam.com/calgaryherald From rah at shipwright.com Tue Sep 2 18:51:52 1997 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:51:52 +0800 Subject: Things we should be working on... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:58 am -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote: > At 5:43 AM -0700 9/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote: > >So, Tim, what should we all be working on, in particular? > > OK, you asked. This isn't a comprehensive list. [outstanding non-comprehensive list snipped] So, Tim, does this mean that you're now willing to fund development of any of those things? Sorry to bait and switch you like that, Tim, but I had a point. That is, if it doesn't make money, it won't happen. Economic "utilitarianism", like the rest of reality, is not optional. > Also, 95% of the crap about "digital commerce" is merely a distraction. The > wrong direction, the wrong technology. Just "Visa on the Net," and hence of > no real use for our sorts of goals. Worse, the wrong direction. Agreed. Book-entry transactions on the internet are the functional equivalent of an electric car with a power cord. Or trying to make a supersonic derigible. And, the *only* way you can have bearer certificate transactions on the net of any non-repudiable strength is with cryptography. The strongest cryptographic protocols, for very little extra cost, are those involving anonymous bearer certificates, and so, I claim, anonymous bearer certificate protocols will eventually replace "Visa on the Net", with digital bearer forms of picocash, or macrobonds, or anonymously held equity or derivatives. You certainly can't do those anywhere, much less on the net, with book-entry settlement. The net, or the machines which use them, anyway, would choke on the overhead. The internet sees audit trails as damage and routes around them, to torture poor Gilmore's quote one more time... So, my goal is *not* to maximize privacy, because it's a natural consequence of my actual goal, which is reduce the cost of any given transaction by 3 or so orders of magnitude. To maximize profit, in other words. The way to do that, on a ubiquitous internet, is, paradoxically, with strong cryptography. That, I am sure, is a fundemental economic fact of the universe. Amazing, isn't it, that my goal and your goal get the same result of ubiquitous financial (and thus any other kind of) anonymity? Kind of like the neat way that some mathematics describes physical processes, or that aerodynamic flight, ostensibly orthogonal to economics, is cheaper than long distance surface travel, much less boyant flight, for moving people around. An argument that Hume would have loved, certainly. The connection between privacy and economic return is only constant conjunction, like the sun coming up tomorrow because it came up every morning in human memory. It's going to be just as predictable, though. So, getting back to my point, which Sameer and PGP and even RSA have proven already, and which lots of the rest of us hope to prove going forward, cryptoanarchy must pay for itself in order to be deployed. It's that simple. In other words, if you want to see it, Tim, and you can't build it yourself, hire it built, and see if it sells. It's risky, any investment is, but given your past financial success, you're demonstrably clueful enough to get a good return for any investment you make in cryptography. Cheers, Bob Hettinga - ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNAzBMMUCGwxmWcHhAQHGSQf/YVe284MvE+mptcsgMhFl+a1Uz1/dbCRM wd0f0MaQ1BPSGmXIkhcBjcLddy3jO5m6PBGpXCaJ1HAiCIu5Id6ocKURs4Y6SWD1 ntQCpfmfR8DWf6t7n0S9O0CadmtlPjRhv9jpT7yI5+QGc8RaIyXsTetdAZ8GXRFf /OjZ2ML5oKNer/7BwfKs+BYfFHxZIGTm7ocpliT4dfJGpXuBpMgjdNVrrrdKI5Ec PBR9RB/ct8I0bKg+GdmF2o4vwJlYGjT5tyIbKxEnSABsN/TgHYZXYgmqFg8woWDZ jbPIzSeeDUHlOZ7SuZqLhYc7ox+iM50hKwlOnZL/tW0pwHq2srqaqQ== =JGAl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From goddesshera at juno.com Tue Sep 2 19:24:18 1997 From: goddesshera at juno.com (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:24:18 +0800 Subject: U.S. Refugees Flee to Germany Message-ID: <19970902.200914.2511.6.goddesshera@juno.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 9:46 AM 8/28/1997, Tim May wrote: >At 8:20 AM -0700 8/28/97, Anonymous wrote: >>~Now, the pages are back online on a small server in Germany. Organizers >>of the site are raising funds to purchase their own direct connection to >>the Net. However they don't want their computer to be in the US-- but >>not because they plan to violate any US laws. "We are very nervous >>about being here," says Jim Finn, who helps run the Free Spirits, "if >>the government is going to use underhanded tactics to intimidate our >>providers and possibly confiscate our equipment." In the course of >>investigations, police frequently seize computers that they never >>return, even when they file no charges. >> >> Perhaps Germany should start building refugee camps for American >>homosexuals, Jews, and producers of strong encryption. >... > >I assume this is a joke, as Germany is one of the last places one would >choose for a censorship-free site! This should be a good candidate for the Eternity service. They aren't in the search engines yet. Anybody know how to reach them? >But I'll contact Jim Finn about hosting my "The So-Called Holocaust" Web >page, which explains how the International Jew Conspiracy has succeeded in >convincing the gullible that Jews were persecuted in the WW II, when all >right-thinking Aryans know full well that they were coddled and rewarded >and given choice vacation spots in "the East." >Free Spirits should be an ideal host for this material. Another good candidate for the Eternity service. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html "I AM a number! I am a free man!" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNAduupaWtjSmRH/5AQG/UQf7B+lpgip1gRLAduUrvOML3IyUbeYXQRQN WIkjupsjsnQzoJ3E26WSpbNKxaNaEgl5a3gtO2n+Ensu5u2pPjkRSANLOebANZbD np+OcKo9EcZhRcC3hPUho/M+2YaqwnUwfXs+qrzdSoRCCNzMEMjkFwAhrVyhT0t/ XeB9CBcZWNKMpV9Ty3TDhr9QIOUBy8XyLQBrMNkn8T06tzoND7Ts5v3AWzRY1dGU +vO/nwpHAu974JG4tWy2imeMzgApYVqg+wvK/8JO/YH9M9ig78ywAI6+IqebhqpU yPbs88SaKYeSt7+uEEYTQXX0W1sTy8CdOpaiiFoopOaEYh2nO8SwFQ== =pBPi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- This message was automatically remailed. The sender is unknown, unlogged, and nonreplyable. Send complaints and blocking requests to . From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu Tue Sep 2 19:42:27 1997 From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:42:27 +0800 Subject: Things we should be working on... Message-ID: <199709030236.WAA06659@www.video-collage.com> At 08:58 AM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote: ... >2. A usable form of Chaum's cash, a la Goldberg's or Schear's or Back's or >whomever's implementation. An evolution of Magic Money, Hashcash, etc., >using full strength algorithms. Backing can be decentralized. Less emphasis >on deals with banks, more emphasis on guerilla deployment, a la PGP. > >(Initial uses may be for illegal things, which may be a good thing for >deployment. Sex, for example, historically drives technologies like this. >Thus, one might imagine combining blinded (no puns, please) cash with >message pools to allow users to anonymously purchase JPEG images and have >the resultant images placed in a pool for their later browsing. If done on >a per image basis, for small amounts of digital cash, this could help users >get their feet wet and gain familiarity. Integration into browsers would >help.) ... How about this. The barter economy has predated the artificial construct that we know as money. It even predates the use of precious metals, which are pretty worthless for most uses. Get some non bank supporters to accept "coupons" for thier merchandise. At first, this could easily be information based. Make the "coupons" work on all of this initial merchandise, which can be sold again and again, so there's no great loss to the supporters. Granted, this brings us back to a form of money, but one based on commodies as opposed to worthless yellow metal that is only sought after because it doesn't corrode and is soft enough to work, (ignoring electronics, dental, and stained glass as more recent developments for the shiny stuff.) If PGP could be registered with a certain amount of these units, the same with other crypto applications, all the better. If people want this money, they can call up their friendly neighborhood software salesman and buy it knowing full well that if they ever want to, they can always trade it back for a good "DOOM97 Hell Freezes Over" game. They can take these signed DoomDollars to a moneychanger web site to change it for PGPdollars, BorlandBucks, BlowfishClams and Kongbucks, all at the current rate of change. Just a stream of thought. Maybe useful, maybe not. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Sep 2 19:56:19 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:56:19 +0800 Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!! In-Reply-To: <199709022231.AAA10065@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes: > Made you look! Did the Queen cunt place any bets of Di's death recently? AP or not, all royal scum deserve to die in a gas chamber. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Sep 2 19:57:50 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:57:50 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970902151846.007d3c30@smtp1.abraxis.com> Message-ID: > |> >>>> > > > Information, please! > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow. > |> >Don't spit, just swallow. > | >Don't touch anything. > Don't touch _there_. Don't let the bastards grind you down. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Sep 2 20:02:21 1997 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:02:21 +0800 Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!! In-Reply-To: <19970902225403.9059.qmail@zipcon.net> Message-ID: Mike Duvos writes: > Now that pictures of Princess Diana trapped in the wreckage have been > printed in European tabloids, it is only a matter of time before someone > scans them and posts them to alt.binaries.pictures.tasteless. > > Clicking on such pictures, of course, is not the moral equivalent of > having personally run Princess Diana off the road, regardless of what your > neighborhood CPAC member would like you to believe. This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran Di's card off the road by some weird italian name? They're JOURNALISTS. Just like Declan here. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From snow at smoke.suba.com Tue Sep 2 20:10:54 1997 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:10:54 +0800 Subject: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults) In-Reply-To: <199708280445.XAA08389@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: <199709030105.UAA00525@smoke.suba.com> William said (and so did others): > >At 06:10 PM 8/27/97 PDT, John Smith wrote: > >>William H. Geiger III: > >>>In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were >based > >>>a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs. > >>And how about our gun-crazy friend, who'd shoot anybody who messed > >>dies? Sounds to me like we've got another shooting coming. Is that > >>the kind of world you want to live in? > >I like the little comment made in the first of MIB. And I paraphrase. > >Individuals are intelligent, people are stupid. No, people are stupid. Singly, in pairs, triples, or larger groups. I think it is just that the stupider people are attracted to large groups. > >Better ones would be the LA Riots and the famous broadcast of War of the > >Worlds. > And where were are beloved Police? Hiding elseware eating thier donuts > becuse they were too *chicken shit* to do thier job. It only goes to show Were I an honest cop during that period of time, and assuming that we got *something resembling the truth* from the media (eventually) you can bet your bottom dollar I'd have turned in my badge and left town for healthier climates. > that when the chips are really down you can not count on the government to > save you. When the chips are down, you'd better count on nothing but yourself. > And before anyone ask yes I think that every rat bastard involved in the > riots should have been shot on sight. I think that every rat bastard that *DIDN'T* go after the cops should have been shot. Those that went after the police stations should have just been beaten severly... From snow at smoke.suba.com Tue Sep 2 20:15:23 1997 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:15:23 +0800 Subject: Monkey Wrench into the works In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970828005458.3ae7e2f2@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199709030109.UAA00549@smoke.suba.com> > On 8/27/97, James A. Donald replied paraphrasing Ben Franklin, > (who really knew very little about cryptography): > >What one man knows, nobody knows. > >What two men know, everyone knows. > >Shared secrets just don't work. > > Clearly in many cases parties must share secrets. > You and your bank keep mutual secrets about your money. Execpt that the bank lets the government in on it. > You and your doctor keep mutually secret medical data. Execpt in certain circumstances, when the doctor is legally bound to report your illness. Or when your chart is handled by 20 or 30 people in a hospital. Or when the doctor makes a remark to his lover/wife/mistress/boyfriend about your case. From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 20:26:01 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:26:01 +0800 Subject: Things we should be working on... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:25 PM -0700 9/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote: >So, Tim, does this mean that you're now willing to fund development of any >of those things? ... >In other words, if you want to see it, Tim, and you can't build it >yourself, hire it built, and see if it sells. It's risky, any investment >is, but given your past financial success, you're demonstrably clueful >enough to get a good return for any investment you make in cryptography. > Sorry I "donated" my time making up this list, given the messages I'm seeing and the private chastisements of me for daring to suggest. Apparently some of you think that only full-time C or Java programmers are qualified to make suggestions. And spare me the lectures on Capitalism 101. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 20:26:04 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:26:04 +0800 Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:05 PM -0700 9/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote: >A more useful way to avoid corrections/citations/clarifications might be >simply getting the details correct in the first place. > And a hearty fuck you to you as well. Jeesh. You'll probably make a fine lawyer. There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From bd1011 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 2 20:35:14 1997 From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (nobuki nakatuji) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:35:14 +0800 Subject: RC2,RC4,CDMF algorithm Message-ID: <19970903032213.26099.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anybody know RC2,RC4,CDMF algorithm? If you know these algorithm, Please show me these algorithm. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From remailer at bureau42.ml.org Tue Sep 2 20:44:42 1997 From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:44:42 +0800 Subject: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal Message-ID: Ira Sockowitz moved from commerce to SBA taking a few things with him: An excerpt: The classified information Sockowitz took was so sensitive it threatened to put the National Security Agency, or NSA, out of business, because the files included information about encryption chips (which safeguard computers) that the spy agency itself can't break. These are files for which high-tech companies lust and countries would kill. http://members.aol.com/beachbt/socko.htm From brianbr at together.net Tue Sep 2 20:49:18 1997 From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:49:18 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: <199709030342.XAA10226@mx01.together.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 9/2/97 9:28 PM, Jonathan Wienke (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) passed this wisdom: >What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall >not be infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, >U.S. Constitution) > >When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just >the police. Just curious, where did you ever get the idea that criminals fear the police? The way our system works these days, the police are hardly more than an annoyance and inconvenience (unless of course an NYC cop asks if you want to go to the bathroom!) rather than to be feared. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNAzcg8dZgC62U/gIEQLHxgCfTSfMBGA7bf4jWPQD4ATa6Gn2AEEAmgMV QvRO7Ta6RadyVeNYqdnx6+vw =VoET -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys - Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key" "When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain From enoch at zipcon.net Tue Sep 2 21:09:59 1997 From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:09:59 +0800 Subject: Missing Kids and Porn Links In-Reply-To: <199709030151.VAA07747@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> Message-ID: <19970903035857.3253.qmail@zipcon.net> Damaged Justice writes: > The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children > (NCMEC) encourages the owners of Web sites to add a link > that will bring up the picture of a different missing child > every ten minutes. According to Ruben Rodriguez, Supervisor > of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is getting 70 to 80 > requests a day for information to create the link. Some > sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves, > including pornographic Web sites. > One popular porn site proclaims on its home page that, > "This Site Cares About Our Young Children! Please Take A Few > Seconds To Look At The Pictures Of The Missing Children!! > Every Ten Minutes When You Reload A Different Child's > Picture Appears! If We Can Save Just ONE! Then Wouldn't That > Be Worth It?" That particular site, said Rodriguez, will get > a cease and desist letter from the Center's chief legal > counsel. The thing to realize here is that NCMEC is an agency which receives almost 100% of its funding from government agencies, one of which is the Juvenile Justice division of the US DOJ. It has about as much to do with childrens' rights as aardvarks have to do with starship design. It exists primarily so that news organizations can point and say "Childrens' Advocates Praised the President's Decision" every time childrens' civil liberties are further reduced, or some laughable new definition of child porn is criminalized. In addition, it helps to conduct the war against imagined pedophiles, both at home and abroad, and enforces the property rights of parents against any minor under the age of 18 who dares to leave their bed and board. These two agendas may be easily combined, since if one is not with ones parents, one is obviously in the clutches of an exaltation of pedophiles grooming one for a life of sexual depravity. While reasonable people would see little problem in popular adult web sites also posting missing childrens' pictures, NCMEC toes the child sex hysteric party line, and accepts links only from ideologically pure "Save the Children" organizations, like CPAC, which engage in content-based harrassment of perfectly legal material, and which subscribe to the doctrine of "Voodoo Molestation" when otherwise ordinary photographs are viewed. If you're a missing or exploited child, seek the services of a good childrens' legal advocate, not NCMEC, unless of course you wish to have your picture on numerous grocery items, be returned to your parents in handcuffs, and be used to promote someone elses political agenda, the only "services" NCMEC has ever managed to provide to children in need. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ enoch at zipcon.com $ via Finger $ {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell} From sunder at brainlink.com Tue Sep 2 21:37:57 1997 From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:37:57 +0800 Subject: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Ira Sockowitz moved from commerce to SBA taking a few things with him: > > An excerpt: > > The classified information Sockowitz took was so sensitive it threatened > to put the National Security Agency, or NSA, out of business, because the > files included information about encryption chips (which safeguard > computers) that the spy agency itself can't break. These are files for > which high-tech companies lust and countries would kill. > > http://members.aol.com/beachbt/socko.htm And he didn't like happen to post all those plans and files on the net did he? too bad... :I =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== From Abstruse at technologist.com Tue Sep 2 21:38:12 1997 From: Abstruse at technologist.com (Abstruse) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:38:12 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: <199709022232.AAA10117@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <340CE6B5.7CB3@technologist.com> Anonymous wrote: > > > > |> >>Dave K-P writes: > > > |> >> > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please! > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow. > > > |> >Don�t spit, just swallow. > > > | >Don't touch anything. > > > Don't touch _there_. > > Never piss into the wind. > Don't pull on a psycho's cape. Don't jump to confusions.. From anon at anon.efga.org Tue Sep 2 21:40:58 1997 From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:40:58 +0800 Subject: Diana on a stick Message-ID: <16f3cc8e4270d773fea83227ae514a06@anon.efga.org> Rumor has it that Princess Diana will be put on a barbeque-style spit in her coffin, so that when the Buckingham Palace spin doctors are done with her, she will be able to roll over in her grave at a high rate of speed. Dr. Roberts ~~~~~~~~~~~ From ichudov at Algebra.COM Tue Sep 2 21:46:24 1997 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:46:24 +0800 Subject: Missing Kids and Porn Links In-Reply-To: <19970903035857.3253.qmail@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <199709030438.XAA17630@manifold.algebra.com> Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or control freaks, in my humble opinion. igor Mike Duvos wrote: > > > Damaged Justice writes: > > > The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children > > (NCMEC) encourages the owners of Web sites to add a link > > that will bring up the picture of a different missing child > > every ten minutes. According to Ruben Rodriguez, Supervisor > > of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is getting 70 to 80 > > requests a day for information to create the link. Some > > sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves, > > including pornographic Web sites. > > > One popular porn site proclaims on its home page that, > > "This Site Cares About Our Young Children! Please Take A Few > > Seconds To Look At The Pictures Of The Missing Children!! > > Every Ten Minutes When You Reload A Different Child's > > Picture Appears! If We Can Save Just ONE! Then Wouldn't That > > Be Worth It?" That particular site, said Rodriguez, will get > > a cease and desist letter from the Center's chief legal > > counsel. > > The thing to realize here is that NCMEC is an agency which > receives almost 100% of its funding from government agencies, one > of which is the Juvenile Justice division of the US DOJ. > > It has about as much to do with childrens' rights as aardvarks > have to do with starship design. It exists primarily so that > news organizations can point and say "Childrens' Advocates > Praised the President's Decision" every time childrens' civil > liberties are further reduced, or some laughable new definition > of child porn is criminalized. > > In addition, it helps to conduct the war against imagined > pedophiles, both at home and abroad, and enforces the property > rights of parents against any minor under the age of 18 who dares > to leave their bed and board. These two agendas may be easily > combined, since if one is not with ones parents, one is obviously > in the clutches of an exaltation of pedophiles grooming one for a > life of sexual depravity. > > While reasonable people would see little problem in popular adult > web sites also posting missing childrens' pictures, NCMEC toes > the child sex hysteric party line, and accepts links only from > ideologically pure "Save the Children" organizations, like CPAC, > which engage in content-based harrassment of perfectly legal > material, and which subscribe to the doctrine of "Voodoo > Molestation" when otherwise ordinary photographs are viewed. > > If you're a missing or exploited child, seek the services of a > good childrens' legal advocate, not NCMEC, unless of course you > wish to have your picture on numerous grocery items, be returned > to your parents in handcuffs, and be used to promote someone > elses political agenda, the only "services" NCMEC has ever > managed to provide to children in need. > > -- > Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ > enoch at zipcon.com $ via Finger $ > {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell} > - Igor. From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Sep 2 21:56:08 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:56:08 +0800 Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!! Message-ID: <199709030442.GAA19840@basement.replay.com> At 09:43 PM 9/2/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >Mike Duvos writes: > >> Now that pictures of Princess Diana trapped in the wreckage have been >> printed in European tabloids, it is only a matter of time before someone >> scans them and posts them to alt.binaries.pictures.tasteless. >> >> Clicking on such pictures, of course, is not the moral equivalent of >> having personally run Princess Diana off the road, regardless of what your >> neighborhood CPAC member would like you to believe. > >This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran >Di's card off the road by some weird italian name? In a case of Worst Timing Ever by an advertiser, Weight Watchers flyers hit the mailboxes in our area on Friday. They feature a cheesecake shot of Lady Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York, saying that losing weight is: "HARDER than outrunning the papparazzi" I guess fat people are doomed. From remailer at bureau42.ml.org Tue Sep 2 22:11:43 1997 From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:11:43 +0800 Subject: Adding Memory to the Net Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- This is an interesting proposal. It would be easier for people who are new to this business if there were more specifics about how this would be implemented. I'm sure you have particular techniques in mind for splitting the data across servers, etc., but everybody else doesn't necessarily know what they are. Examples are nice because you can go over them one bit at a time. Here are some ignorant comments and questions. Mike Duvos wrote: > Bob makes a secure connection to a Trusted Agent doing business... Why is the Trusted Agent necessary? What does the agent do that Bob couldn't do himself? It seems like Bob could split up the data and pay the servers to hold it just as well as the agent. And he wouldn't have to trust anybody. > For the next 100 days, Bob and all of his friends may use the 256 > bit TAG/CONTEXT pair in place of Bob's data and may serve that data > for free any number of times off any network file system server. Or the people getting the data could also pay small fee for good service. Like a tip, if storing the data itself is the dominant cost. This makes it harder to attack the servers by saturating them with requests for data. Usenet has traditionally been free for posters. This model could continue if there were users who were willing to pay to see other people's posts. Servers would keep the data around so long as there seemed to be people asking for it. You could imagine the price going up over time as fewer people want to see it. At some point not enough people may want to pay as much money so it goes away. In this model the server operators would just be information speculators. And, if The Bad Guys started knocking out servers, there would be a powerful financial incentive to start serving the information that was eliminated since its market price should go up. > After 100 days, bob may fork over another 10 cents for another 100 > days, or his data will disappear. The TAG assigned to an Octet > String is unique, and no two strings have the same TAG, and no > string is ever assigned multiple tags, no matter how often it may be > entered and purged from the system. It would be nice if the ten cents sells a promise by the server to make the data available for some period of time in a way which is independently auditable. If the server stops carrying the data, Bob can publish his proof that he was defrauded. Because the facts would not be in doubt, it would be unlikely to happen frequently. > Users could boot their machines off the Network, and instantly see > gigabytes of software available to them. After syncing their cache > file system with the network, they could drop their PC off the roof, > buy another one, and by typing in just one TAG/CONTEXT pair, see all > their files again. This is very cool. You can hide 256 bits pretty easily, which makes The Great Satan's job harder. > Aside from replication done for reliability, there should be only > one copy of a file in the system at any time. If multiple users > submit the same file, there should be no more copies than if one > user submitted it. Would this really be worth the effort? If Bob wants to pay to put the file up twice, why not let just let him? Just Another Cypherpunk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNAuAZv+1rw4IkyBFAQG3WQf9EBR/peMkdc+0WT5W6O+L9KMf69artRy9 Fg8kCObbHlYEn/rCd0DRJ+Hd9YLfBz8aeo7YqaU3Lawe9+WW5hH0HbSYZe6vXeBN M5VKW4HJpcY4zapc1DCdCPW72KnWZjlrOsP3X+r1yi1KrLlsORNkl3M85dhS5vLz YRoZIIZE51vmrnV3mCA0dClljP2+e4c7FmxtO36spi7n/PPVwkP7xtHqsy762Ex/ iyxyRXCWnPMFHy0tJRWi25HeGqC2IRg22zQ5zk36c6z/JPS92Yabix/rnVWcazP4 3OnmT+nF3xy3mtdx9eMbPTBvxY28uOq+q2k/0/KjNmDjVRPRl2mlvw== =quQD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From enoch at zipcon.net Tue Sep 2 22:22:50 1997 From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:22:50 +0800 Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19970903051312.12398.qmail@zipcon.net> Dr. Vulis writes: > This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran > Di's car off the road by some weird italian name? In 1958, there was an Italian photographer named Tazio Secchiaroli who discovered that newspapers would pay big money for pictures of "surprised" celebrities. He is best known for a photograph of Egypt's King Farouk overturning a restaurant table in frustration after being harrassed during his meal. When Federico Fellini made his 1960 film, "La Dolce Vita," where Marcello Mastroianni played a frustrated gossip columnist, he created a photographer sidekick for him based on Secchiaroli which he named "Parparazzo" in the film. Since then, annoying photographers seeking to intrude upon celebrities and provoke them into performing for the camera have been referred to as "Paparazzi." -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ enoch at zipcon.com $ via Finger $ {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell} From anon at anon.efga.org Tue Sep 2 22:57:30 1997 From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:57:30 +0800 Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack Message-ID: Timmy C[retin] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug. (((> /< ( / ((({{{{{:< Timmy C[retin] May \ \< From frantz at netcom.com Tue Sep 2 23:02:09 1997 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:02:09 +0800 Subject: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves Message-ID: ####################################################### Telecoms Newsline A News Service for Telecoms Professionals Sponsored by Hewlett-Packard Issue 48: 2 September 1997 http://www.telecomsnewsline.com ######################################################## Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves ------------------------------------------------------ The European Commission (EC) has warned the US regulator, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), that its unilateral action (see TN 46) could jeopardise the World Trade Organisation agreement on telecoms. The FCC has rejected the WTO agreements sanctioned by the ITU, and intends to impose its own cost-based accounting tariff for international call terminations. The US suffers an enormous trade deficit in telecoms services because its international calls are much cheaper than those in many other countries. This means that far more traffic originates in the US for termination overseas than comes in from abroad, resulting in American international operators paying out more than US$5 billion per year to foreign carriers for the termination of calls. The FCC has come up with its own benchmarking scheme which will be introduced over the next five years. This has enraged many nations who view it as dictatorial; it is also against the multilateral approach of the WTO agreement. Furthermore, in the absence of accurate data, the FCC has used countries� GDP (rather than how much it costs overseas operators to handle calls) to set the settlement rates that US operators will be obliged to pay overseas carriers in future. At the moment the FCC feels that many countries� accounting rates are inflated and bear no relation to the actual cost of providing the service. Poorer countries claim that it costs them much more to handle calls because they struggle with antiquated infrastructure and that they need the revenue from high accounting rates to cover the cost of modernising their networks. In addition, for less developed economies, the monies they receive in settlement rates are a precious source of hard currency. The debate looks set to run and run with the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) stuck between a rock and hard place, trying to find a compromise that is acceptable to all parties. ######################################################## Telecoms Newsline {c} 1997 Hewlett-Packard Co. Editor: Peter Judge Contributor: Annie Turner To subscribe to Telecoms Newsline send mail to with 'subscribe hp and your e-mail address' in message body. To unsubscribe, send mail to with 'unsubscribe and your e-mail address' in or message body. Or visit our website at http://www.telecomsnewsline.com If you like us, pass it on. This publication is free and may be re-posted. Entire issues may be posted without alteration or editing. Individual stories may also be re-posted, with this message attached. If you want to re-post all issues to a Web site or list, please appreciate our work by telling us. As Telecoms Newsline is available globally on the Internet, we cannot guarantee price or availability of products in your area. Editorial comments or questions please mailto:publisher at telecomsnewsline.com ######################################################## ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet was designed | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | to protect the free world | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From abrams at philos.umass.edu Tue Sep 2 23:09:20 1997 From: abrams at philos.umass.edu (Integration) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:09:20 +0800 Subject: Information Message-ID: <199709030603.CAA18347@wilde.oit.umass.edu> > Anonymous wrote: > > > > > > |> >>Dave K-P writes: > > > > |> >> > > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please! > > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow. > > > > |> >Don�t spit, just swallow. > > > > | >Don't touch anything. > > > > Don't touch _there_. > > > Never piss into the wind. > > Don't pull on a psycho's cape. > Don't jump to confusions.. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. From tm at dev.null Tue Sep 2 23:16:30 1997 From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:16:30 +0800 Subject: Jim Bell Information In-Reply-To: <199709022232.AAA10117@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <340CF99F.6B6F@dev.null> > > > |> >>Dave K-P writes: > > > |> >> > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please! > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach. > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys. > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers. > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell. > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow. > > > |> >Don�t spit, just swallow. > > > | >Don't touch anything. > > > Don't touch _there_. > > Never piss into the wind. > Don't pull on a psycho's cape. Don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger and don't mess around with Jim From nobody at REPLAY.COM Tue Sep 2 23:21:08 1997 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:21:08 +0800 Subject: Missing Kids and Porn Links Message-ID: <199709030605.IAA27215@basement.replay.com> Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or > control freaks, in my humble opinion. I agree. Does anyone have any pointers to child pornography sites, so that I can warn people which sites to avoid? T.C. Mayonnaise "Hey little girl, want to make some mayonnaise with _real_ eggs?" From tcmay at got.net Tue Sep 2 23:38:01 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:38:01 +0800 Subject: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:52 PM -0700 9/2/97, Bill Frantz wrote: >####################################################### ... >Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves >------------------------------------------------------ >The European Commission (EC) has warned the US regulator, the Federal >Communications Commission (FCC), that its unilateral action (see TN >46) could jeopardise the World Trade Organisation agreement on >telecoms. The FCC has rejected the WTO agreements sanctioned by the >ITU, and intends to impose its own cost-based accounting tariff for >international call terminations. > >The US suffers an enormous trade deficit in telecoms services >because its international calls are much cheaper than those in many >other countries. This means that far more traffic originates in the >US for termination overseas than comes in from abroad, resulting in >American international operators paying out more than US$5 billion >per year to foreign carriers for the termination of calls. ... The basic flaw in all of these analyses stems from lumping all of these market transactions together into national bins. The whole "trade deficit" talk, on all sides, suffers from this fatal flaw. If Company A in nominal nation AA gets more business than Company B in nominal nation BB, the pundits call this "imbalanced trade." I call it knowing where the bargains are. Can't we spare one of our nukes for Brussels? And another for Cherbourg, or wherever it is the EC has its other HQ? (Note to Greg Broiles: You will undoubtedly claim that I should check my facts more thoroughly before sending this message. When you start paying me $150 an hour (cheap by attorney's inflated fee schedules) I will promise to spend an extra 10-20 minutes per post doing Web searches to verify trivial details.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tm at dev.null Tue Sep 2 23:38:48 1997 From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:38:48 +0800 Subject: Missing Kids and Porn Links In-Reply-To: <199709030151.VAA07747@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> Message-ID: <340D004C.21D2@dev.null> Damaged Justice wrote: > [Relevant for all recent discussions on "linking without permission", as > well as the usual childpornhysteriamongering.] > [2]Newsbytes Advertising > Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular > > ****Missing Children Pix On Websites Overpopular 09/02/97 SEATTLE, > WASHINGTON, U.S.A., 1997 AUG 29 (NB) -- By Bruce Miller. The National > Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) encourages the > owners of Web sites to add a link that will bring up the picture of a > different missing child every ten minutes. According to Ruben > Rodriguez, Supervisor of the Exploited Child Unit, the Center is > getting 70 to 80 requests a day for information to create the link. > Some sites, however, have taken the initiative themselves, including > pornographic Web sites. > > "This is the kiss of death for us," said Rodriguez. "We want the > public to help us find missing and exploited children. The Internet > public is coming to us to display our banner on our sites. > Unfortunately, there are some locations on the Internet that are > inappropriate." We *must* take immediate action to prevent missing children from being found by people who don't consider nudity shameful, people who smoke, fat people, Jewish people, people with more than three speeding tickets... ConcernedMonger From rh at dev.null Tue Sep 2 23:40:57 1997 From: rh at dev.null (Robert Hettingazzi) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:40:57 +0800 Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!! In-Reply-To: <19970903051312.12398.qmail@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <340CFFD0.E9A@dev.null> "I *lov'a* dis'a leest!" Mike Duvos wrote: > > Dr. Vulis writes: > > > This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran > > Di's car off the road by some weird italian name? > > In 1958, there was an Italian photographer named Tazio Secchiaroli who > discovered that newspapers would pay big money for pictures of "surprised" > celebrities. He is best known for a photograph of Egypt's King Farouk > overturning a restaurant table in frustration after being harrassed during > his meal. > > When Federico Fellini made his 1960 film, "La Dolce Vita," where Marcello > Mastroianni played a frustrated gossip columnist, he created a > photographer sidekick for him based on Secchiaroli which he named > "Parparazzo" in the film. > > Since then, annoying photographers seeking to intrude upon celebrities and > provoke them into performing for the camera have been referred to as > "Paparazzi." > > -- > Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ > enoch at zipcon.com $ via Finger $ > {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell} From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 2 23:44:21 1997 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:44:21 +0800 Subject: Information In-Reply-To: <199709030342.XAA10226@mx01.together.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970902234544.006e53c8@popd.netcruiser> At 11:42 PM 9/2/97 -0400, anti-matter aliens from another dimension tortured Brian until he wrote: >On 9/2/97 9:28 PM, Jonathan Wienke (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) passed >this wisdom: [Editor's note: this must be how wisdom is like flatus.] >>What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall >>not be infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, >>U.S. Constitution) >> >>When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just >>the police. > > Just curious, where did you ever get the idea that criminals fear the >police? The way our system works these days, the police are hardly >more than an annoyance and inconvenience (unless of course an NYC cop >asks if you want to go to the bathroom!) rather than to be feared. You are right, of course, to a point. Criminal don't fear cops like vampires fear wooden stakes, or like certain politicians / three-letter-agencies fear and loathe private gun ownership, or like most women fear most spiders and snakes. However, most criminals do make some effort to avoid committing crimes in the presence of law enforcement officers, and try to avoid capture and incarceration by same. (Those who don't, appear on "America's Dumbest Criminals" or White House press briefings, I forget which...) On the other hand, a homeowner with a 12-gauge riot shotgun or a Desert Eagle .44 Magnum pistol can instill fear into almost any criminal, even the stupid ones. (The only thing I don't like about the Eagle is that a 75+ ounce pistol is rather difficult to conceal. I have a shoulder holster for mine, and I have to carry four magazines on the off side so I don't walk like Quasimodo. :) Even a Jennings .22 can ruin a mugger's day, assuming that it doesn't jam, and you can hit anything with it. Jonathan Wienke What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution) When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police. PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1 3A8F 778A 7407 2928 DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA 4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred. US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users: Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/ Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html Other PGP 5.0 sources: http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/ http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/ ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Cypherpunks are in no position to make remarks about Jewish racism. Jews were far more welcoming to such as Sammy Davis, Jr. than many cypherpunks would be. "Off my porch, nigger!" would be the undoubted greeting from some of our ostensible leaders, as they take shotgun in hand. From tcmay at got.net Wed Sep 3 00:18:04 1997 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:18:04 +0800 Subject: Fate of Jews in America (fwd) In-Reply-To: <18adffbcbf3db09095d3735819c68cbc@anon.efga.org> Message-ID: At 11:35 PM -0700 9/2/97, Anonymous wrote: >Cypherpunks are in no position to make remarks about Jewish racism. > >Jews were far more welcoming to such as Sammy Davis, Jr. than many >cypherpunks would be. "Off my porch, nigger!" would be the undoubted >greeting from some of our ostensible leaders, as they take shotgun in >hand. If the nigger demanded entrance to my porch, or snuck in at night, then I would indeed fill the nigger with buckshot. Ditto for the honkey. Or the slope. If, however, the black or white or whatever acted in a nonthreatening, nondemanding, mutually voluntary way, why would I care what his melanin level was? Nothing in this "Sammy Davis" you refer to suggests he forced his way onto anyone's porch. (If he did, then of course he should have been shot dead.) There are blacks in the Cypherpunks group. some of whom have come to CP meetings in the Bay Area. I don't recall anyone chasing them off with shotguns or AR-15s, or even making racist comments. (It is true that the vast majority of Cypherpunks are basically libertarian, and hence are not keen on government programs to favor one race or sex or group over another. Jesse Jackson calls this point of view "racism." "Ending discrimination in favor of some races is racism," he claims. Most list members would reject this.) Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever basis they wish? --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From naoqize at worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 3 15:22:51 1997 From: naoqize at worldnet.att.net (Someone Who Cares!) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: READ THIS, THIS IS NOT JUNK E-MAIL!!! Message-ID: <199709031043VAA806@post.ix.netcom.com> 

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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 00:28:48 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:28:48 +0800
Subject: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: <5uhpc1$vf2$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903001204.0305f980@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 12:56 PM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>My understanding was that you had to do most of your work in Canada because
>of U.S. restrictions on those with student visas?
>Certainly you are just as much in violations of the EARS by going to Canada
>to do your crypto work as Rivest and Company would be in by crossing into
>Canada to develop stuff for RSADSI.
>Am I missing something here?

Yeah, you're missing that Ian's a Canadian, not subject to US laws when
he's not in US territory, unlike Rivest (but not unlike Shamir.)
Taking working papers with him might be an export problem, but 
taking ideas in his head isn't, and when he's at home, he can work,
subject to Canadian limits on writing, publishing, and internetting crypto.
If he wants to sell products based on his crypto work,
there may be student visa issues involved, but there's a Canadian corporation
that can take care of some of those problems for him.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From staff at mailcorporation.com  Wed Sep  3 18:44:48 1997
From: staff at mailcorporation.com (staff at mailcorporation.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040126.SAA15956@sweden.it.earthlink.net>


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
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  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
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  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

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From staff at mailcorporation.com  Wed Sep  3 18:51:37 1997
From: staff at mailcorporation.com (staff at mailcorporation.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:51:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040130.SAA17448@sweden.it.earthlink.net>


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
truth is.. BULK EMAIL WORKS!  By sending out Bulk Email, you are
reaching up to 250,000 people per day for FREE with an unlimited
length advertisement for your business or web page!

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
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From cjb at dev.null  Wed Sep  3 03:57:02 1997
From: cjb at dev.null (Compromise-John Bullers)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:57:02 +0800
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <340D2A3D.B69@dev.null>



Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

Why don't we send just five copies back to him. Is that acceptable to
everybody?

Compromise-John Bullers






From staff at mailcorporation.com  Wed Sep  3 18:57:46 1997
From: staff at mailcorporation.com (staff at mailcorporation.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:57:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040134.SAB18988@sweden.it.earthlink.net>


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
truth is.. BULK EMAIL WORKS!  By sending out Bulk Email, you are
reaching up to 250,000 people per day for FREE with an unlimited
length advertisement for your business or web page!

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: free at nim.com

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From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Wed Sep  3 03:59:07 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:59:07 +0800
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy C[retin] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.
> 
>     (((>     /<
>    (        /
>     ((({{{{{:<  Timmy C[retin] May
>             \
>              \<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email :  : 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 03:59:51 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:59:51 +0800
Subject: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903010757.0305ab88@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:56 AM 9/3/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Ira Sockowitz moved from commerce to SBA taking a few things with him:
>
>An excerpt:
>
>The classified information Sockowitz took was so sensitive it threatened
>to put the National Security Agency, or NSA, out of business, because the
>files included information about encryption chips (which safeguard
>computers) that the spy agency itself can't break. These are files for
>which high-tech companies lust and countries would kill. 
>
>http://members.aol.com/beachbt/socko.htm

Tim Maier's Insight article isn't all that bad, but he obviously doesn't have
a good perspective on crypto technology, and unfortunately none of the
web pages involved contain good email pointers to their authors :-)
	(On the other hand, one of the references said Dave Sobel has copies.)

Encryption technology the NSA can't break is easy; you've been
able to get PGP for about 5 years from Internet sites at
Oxford and various other Finnish, Italian, and North American 
universities, plus lots of good books and conference proceedings.
Far more interesting is insight into what they _can_ break :-)
Also, the documentation about NSA market studies on encryption,
strategies on controlling it, etc., would be amusing to read.

I can't comment usefully on Uranium shipments or satellite technology.
However, some of the writing about Lockheed and Iridium was a bit
on the sensationalist side.  In particular, the assertion that
Lockheed only gave one political contribution in 1993, before this
scandal and (mostly) before Iridium, vs. lots in 1995-1996, is silly.
1992 was an election year, 1994 was Congressional elections,
and 1993 was the mostly quiet time in between.  Given the numbers of
major defense procurements Lockheed's been involved in over the years,
I'd be surprised if they aren't making political contributions like
everyone else in the industry -- they just make them at times they're useful,
and Iridium is just another project.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From Uran233 at aol.com  Wed Sep  3 04:00:02 1997
From: Uran233 at aol.com (Uran233 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:02 +0800
Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab
Message-ID: <970903045841_1919366449@emout04.mail.aol.com>



Yes but the NSA really wanted the Skipjack for DOD messsages. They (probably)
monitor all of those anyway. But Matt did alot of work on his project but did
he show how to brak Skipjack and does this totally trash the Fortezza
 program? I being niaive would not belive that the NSA would let the process
continue if it was unsecure, of cousre if they can read all the messages and
are sure that others can not. Maybe it is secure except for NSA. But does
that mean it is not a good algorithm? DES stood around for a long time, in
the public sense.  But no one knos if there is a trapdoor. Of course I may be
all wrong her but it is a thouhht






From Abstruse at technologist.com  Wed Sep  3 04:00:13 1997
From: Abstruse at technologist.com (Abstruse)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:13 +0800
Subject: Information (yeah, two in one night..so sue..)
In-Reply-To: <199709030603.CAA18347@wilde.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <340D0EB0.6D14@technologist.com>



Integration wrote:
> 
> > Anonymous wrote:
> > >
> > > > > |> >>Dave K-P  writes:
> > > > > |> >>
> > > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > > > > |> >Don�t spit, just swallow.
> > > > > | >Don't touch anything.
> > > > > Don't touch _there_.
> > > > Never piss into the wind.
> > > Don't pull on a psycho's cape.
> > Don't jump to confusions..
> Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Don't *hate* the media..
*become* the media" - Jello Biafra






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep  3 04:00:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:24 +0800
Subject: Information (yeah, two in one night..so sue..)
Message-ID: <199709030753.JAA06106@basement.replay.com>



Abstruse wrote:
> > > > > > |> >>Dave K-P  writes:
> > > > > > |> >>
> > > > > > |> >>>> > > > Information, please!
> > > > > > |> >>>> > > Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> > > > > > |> >>>> > Don't "escrow" your keys.
> > > > > > |> >>>> Don't take advice from strangers.
> > > > > > |> >>>Don't ask, don't tell.
> > > > > > |> >>Don't eat yellow snow.
> > > > > > |> >Don�t spit, just swallow.
> > > > > > | >Don't touch anything.
> > > > > > Don't touch _there_.
> > > > > Never piss into the wind.
> > > > Don't pull on a psycho's cape.
> > > Don't jump to confusions..
> > Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
> 
> Don't *hate* the media..
> *become* the media" - Jello Biafra
Don't talk to yourself (even by email).






From asl at dev.null  Wed Sep  3 04:00:31 1997
From: asl at dev.null (Austin Stable Leader)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:31 +0800
Subject: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <18adffbcbf3db09095d3735819c68cbc@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <340D0E7D.5105@dev.null>



Any Mouse wrote:
> Cypherpunks are in no position to make remarks about Jewish racism.
> 
> Jews were far more welcoming to such as Sammy Davis, Jr. than many
> cypherpunks would be.  "Off my porch, nigger!" would be the undoubted
> greeting from some of our ostensible leaders, as they take shotgun in
> hand.

As the Austin Stable Leader of the Cypherpunks Cult of One (Playtypus
Chapter), I demand to know if you are speaking for _all_ cypherpunks
critics, or just for yourself.
{Don't bother replying either by private email, or to the list, as long
 as you put the answer on your hard drive, I'll find it. 

LongFacedMustachioedCypherpunk(:-I>}HallowedLiterMonger






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  3 04:00:37 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:37 +0800
Subject: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709022216.XAA00915@server.test.net>




Tim May  writes:
> One more question. Could you tell us which things you are talking about
> here, which things you returned to Canada to implement?

I can't see that export controls are much of a big deal for freeware
cypherpunk software ... just publish it on a US site with whatever
access controls you fancy.  It'll make it's way out of the country in
a few minutes and end up on replay.com, or one of the automated
mirrors of export control sites at ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/ or
where ever.

It's not as if you're trying to sell it, or are a corporation worrying
about stepping on toes at NSA Inc. 

> If you are actually going to Canada to release products, this might be even
> more interesting than either the Junger or Bernstein cases. Of course, if
> you discuss this openly, you may be inviting repercussions.

Just release it in the US.  Lets someone else do the export.

Adam
-- 

Have you exported RSA today?






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 04:00:42 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:42 +0800
Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903004312.0305d588@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:51 AM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Now, Ray, you're being too harsh. When NSA/NIST sought the analysis of
>Clipper/Tessera several years ago, the distinguished panel met for a
>weekend in a D.C. area hotel and concluded...drum roll...that
>Clipper/Tessera was secure.

No, they put out an interim report asserting that Skipjack was secure,
promising to do a final report covering the Clipper chip, the escrow system,
the key-loading charade in the vault, and all the other things that make
Clipper,
and hyped the  out of how secure Skipjack was, 
implying that you should trust Clipper and the friendly NSA that gave it to
you.
Of course, N years later, they haven't come out with that final report,
and in context issuing the Skipjack interim part was a blatantly dishonest
ploy,
as well as being too short an analysis to be anything resembling thorough,
even if Skipjack is fairly strong (which it probably is, for 80 bit Feistel.)

>Of course, Matt Blaze broke the Tessera version a few months later....

Not an extremely practical break, but good enough to show the
fundamental shoddiness of the Clipper system and embarass them at a time
that a good heavy-duty embarassment was politically damaging.

>Some believe they have a role in helping industry to secure its
>communications.  I don't agree.  The NSA has no business getting involved 
>in business.  Period.

I think they've got a role in making sure that defense contractors
making products for the US military, whether the contractors are handling 
militarily sensitive information or especially building tools that the
military will use to handle sensitive information, are adequately secure.
You could argue that that's a job for some other centralized expert agency
that's under better civilian control or Pentagon control rather than
being out of control (as the CIA is), perhaps National Science Foundation,
but it's also arguable that the only people who can do an adequate job
of protecting secrets are people with lots of practice cracking them,
and that's something pretty much like an NSA.

There's also a potential role, though it's a much tougher sell,
for NSA or similar experts helping the State Department,
and perhaps civilian Federal agencies that handle private 
information about citizens, do a good job at protecting it,
though the military models of security are often not a good match
for civilian data protection.  My past experience with the NSA
"helping" the State Department was a 3-year debacle in the late 80s,
where they provided a bunch of unrealistic wish-list advice to a bunch of,
ummm, technically challenged Wang administrators about how to build
a secure world-wide network, which gradually fell apart in turf battles
because the main Embassy customers for highly secure communications
don't really work for State and they wanted their secure network 
provided by Real Spooks, and they may not have had the budget or political
clout to get a network built but they could sure spoil a procurement :-)

But other than supporting Federal customers, they ought to leave business 
alone, at least until they get privatized....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 04:00:47 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:00:47 +0800
Subject: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:12 AM -0700 9/3/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 12:56 PM 9/2/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>My understanding was that you had to do most of your work in Canada because
>>of U.S. restrictions on those with student visas?
>>Certainly you are just as much in violations of the EARS by going to Canada
>>to do your crypto work as Rivest and Company would be in by crossing into
>>Canada to develop stuff for RSADSI.
>>Am I missing something here?
>
>Yeah, you're missing that Ian's a Canadian, not subject to US laws when
>he's not in US territory, unlike Rivest (but not unlike Shamir.)
>Taking working papers with him might be an export problem, but
>taking ideas in his head isn't, and when he's at home, he can work,
>subject to Canadian limits on writing, publishing, and internetting crypto.
>If he wants to sell products based on his crypto work,
>there may be student visa issues involved, but there's a Canadian corporation
>that can take care of some of those problems for him.

"Sigh"

As I've answered four people with in private e-mail, I'm fully aware that
Ian is Canadian. This is why he presumably returns to Canada on vacations.
I think he's from Toronto, if memory serves.

But I was not aware that this exempted him from the U.S. Export
Administration laws, known variously as the Export Administration
Regulations (the EARs), the ITARs (old name), or related to the "Munitions
Act." I admit that the EARs are a dense read (cf. glimpses at several
sites, incl. http://bxa.fedworld.gov/ear.html). It's possible that a court
would rule that Ian's 10 months out of the year residency in the U.S. does
not make him subject to the EARs, but I think otherwise.

(Is Ian also exempt from the Espionage Act?)

Now the issue is whether Ian's admitted (here, today) use of trips to
Canada as a subterfuge to bypass the EARs is in fact an admission of
violation of the EARs.

Personally, my hunch is that nobody in D.C. much cares what Ian is now
doing. Not because he's not doing good work, but because they have no
interest in stopping this work. But this is a different thing from saying
that Ian is exempt from the EARs if he goes back to Canada to either finish
a piece of work started in California or to codify the thinking begun in
California. By any reasonable sense of the EARs, this would be as much a
violation of the EARs as if Jim Bidzos went to Greece on vacation and wrote
a new piece of software.

(Note that Bidzos is not a citizen of the United States. He retains Greek
citizenship. He is thus essentially analogous to Ian Goldberg, modulo some
issues of wealth and coding ability, and age.)

I am not saying Ian will be prosecuted or hassled. I am saying I think it
is poor legal advice to suggest that Ian, though he attends school in
California, is miraculously exempted from the force of the U.S. EARs when
he is temporarily back in Canada.

And I repeat what I understood Ian's situation to be, from what he
personally told me some months back: he is forbidden by U.S. Immigration
law from most kinds of normal employment while on a student visa in the
U.S. (graduate student stipends being not part of this "most"), and thus
must be back in Canada to act as an ordinary consultant or author.

This apparently has little to do with the point of evading the EARs. Could
Ian please clarify the situation?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From staff at mailcorporation.com  Wed Sep  3 19:12:08 1997
From: staff at mailcorporation.com (staff at mailcorporation.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:12:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040141.SAA21778@sweden.it.earthlink.net>


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
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From staff at mailcorporation.com  Wed Sep  3 19:18:48 1997
From: staff at mailcorporation.com (staff at mailcorporation.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:18:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040150.SAA25542@sweden.it.earthlink.net>


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
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  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
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From staff at mailcorporation.com  Wed Sep  3 19:27:35 1997
From: staff at mailcorporation.com (staff at mailcorporation.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 35,000,000 People...
Message-ID: <199709040158.SAA28592@sweden.it.earthlink.net>


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email for FREE?
* Receiving 35,000,000 Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Advertisement for your Business or Web Page to
  over 25,000 Newsgroups in under 3 Hours?

You may shudder at the thought of Bulk Email.. but the simple
truth is.. BULK EMAIL WORKS!  By sending out Bulk Email, you are
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length advertisement for your business or web page!

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at: remove at nim.com

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autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.






From phoenix at workload.com  Wed Sep  3 19:37:43 1997
From: phoenix at workload.com (phoenix at workload.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wanted!!! Serious Dieters!!!
Message-ID: <>


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From phoenix at workload.com  Wed Sep  3 19:37:43 1997
From: phoenix at workload.com (phoenix at workload.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wanted!!! Serious Dieters!!!
Message-ID: <>


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I am looking for people who are serious about losing weight, increasing their
energy level and feeling better than you have in your life. These  products
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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep  3 05:02:56 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:02:56 +0800
Subject: You really do want to volunteer, don't you? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:

>
> At 4:05 PM -0700 9/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
> >A more useful way to avoid corrections/citations/clarifications might be
> >simply getting the details correct in the first place.
> >
>
> And a hearty fuck you to you as well.
>
> Jeesh. You'll probably make a fine lawyer.

Probably not.  He works for Sameer Parekh.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep  3 06:04:10 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:04:10 +0800
Subject: Missing Kids and Porn Links
In-Reply-To: <199709030605.IAA27215@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <8oBgce38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> > Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or
> > control freaks, in my humble opinion.
>
> I agree.
>
> Does anyone have any pointers to child pornography sites, so that I can
> warn people which sites to avoid?

http://www.whitehouse.gov

> T.C. Mayonnaise 
> "Hey little girl, want to make some mayonnaise with _real_ eggs?"
>
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From declan at pathfinder.com  Wed Sep  3 06:11:03 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:11:03 +0800
Subject: Death Pictures of Diana on InterNet!!!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> This is off-topic, but... Why do people refer to the bastards who ran
> Di's card off the road by some weird italian name?
> 
> They're JOURNALISTS.  Just like Declan here.

Ahem.

 pa-pa-raz-zo \,paHp-e-'raHt-(,)soE\
 [It]
 (1968)
 :a free-lance photographer who aggressively pursues celebrities for the
 purpose of taking candid photographs 

I'm not freelance, nor a photographer, and certainly not someone who
pursues celebrities to take photos.

-Declan






From cmefford at avwashington.com  Wed Sep  3 06:12:12 1997
From: cmefford at avwashington.com (Chip Mefford)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:12:12 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia

Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.

Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
kicking.

In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!

With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.

This is truely a great day.

Weep for joy!

I love Big Brother.







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep  3 06:17:13 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:17:13 +0800
Subject: DC cypherpunk soccer team?
Message-ID: 



If you live in Washington, play soccer, and are a libertarian
(anarcho-capitalists are also welcome), email me. The fall league is
starting in two weeks. 

The name of the team? "The Invisible Foot"

-Declan






From declan at well.com  Wed Sep  3 06:20:21 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:20:21 +0800
Subject: DC CYPHERPUNKS PARTY on September 6
Message-ID: 



The DC cypherpunk working meeting and Diffie-Hellman patent expiration
party is this Saturday, September 6. About 30 people have RSVP'd. Speakers
include Bob Corn-Revere, a member of the Bernstein legal team, who will
talk about the lawsuit.

A group of 2600ers from NYC are coming down and may be able to bring
friends. People also plan to come from Baltimore and Richmond, so
carpooling might be a possibility. Email me for more info on this.

Remember, the event has two portions:

  -- 5:30 pm: a DCCP working meeting and potluck supper.
  -- 8:00 pm: a post-meeting party to celebrate the expiration of the
              Diffie-Hellman and Merkle-Hellman patents.

The original invite is at http://www.well.com/~declan/dccp/

-Declan






From cyber at ibpinc.com  Wed Sep  3 06:24:10 1997
From: cyber at ibpinc.com (Roger J Jones)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:24:10 +0800
Subject: Forbes September 8, 1997
Message-ID: <01BCB841.ADC03090@PC1901>



For those who have not seen it, the cover of this issue of Forbes is:

"The cypher-libertarians

This guy wants to overthrow the government"

Cool!






From trei at process.com  Wed Sep  3 06:52:59 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:52:59 +0800
Subject: NSA/NIST Security Lab
Message-ID: <199709031344.JAA01344@www.video-collage.com>



Uran233 at aol.com wrote:

> Yes but the NSA really wanted the Skipjack for DOD messsages. 

As I recall, only for sensitive but unclassified data.

>They (probably) monitor all of those anyway. 

Tessera/Clipper had built-in GAK, so a backdoor would have been 
redundant. 

> But Matt did alot of work on his project but did
> he show how to brak Skipjack and does this totally trash the Fortezza
> program?

No. He showed that with a bit of work he could fake the ID of the 
chip sending the message. He did not 'break Skipjack' in any way.
He did show that the protocol (which used Skipjack for bulk 
encryption) was incompetently designed.

Get a spellchecker.

Peter Trei
trei at process.com






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep  3 07:45:44 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:45:44 +0800
Subject: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970903142316.006991bc@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim May wrote:

>(Note to Greg Broiles: You will undoubtedly claim that I should check my
>facts more thoroughly before sending this message. When you start paying me
>$150 an hour (cheap by attorney's inflated fee schedules) I will promise to
>spend an extra 10-20 minutes per post doing Web searches to verify trivial
>details.)

Announcing Black-and-WhiteNet (256-Gray, plaid, checkered, houndstoothed) 
Op Center (B&WOC(256-GPC-fang) which will minutely trivialize the most 
astoundingly paramountly important tics, quirks and quik-$$$ ever Da Vinced by  
CCLs of evil-elvis/chemical/dietary/genetic/ethnic/racial/politco-military
imbalances (CCLoE-ECDGERP-Mi). 

The service is Free!, absolutely EARwig-ITARpit authenticatable, sworn on the 
blorb's newsracks and constitutions for others' genocide and beloved family
whack 
how-tos and inter-related inter-dependent folderol for sanctioned revenge
mayhem 
and It-made-me-do-it salvation and self-rammed lead up hoof-pop and oral rot.

Now, read on for the good $tuff:

Thanks to limitless contributions from the global media, open and secret
Orders, 
trade and NDA assocs, retired and active members of gov/mil/edu/net/orgs, the 
service will leap to shell out data-haven-quicksands of unlocateable
e-shekels to 
anon-remailer-informants for information leading to the entrapment and 
vaporization of the supremely urgently destructive demolishers of all other 
contenders for impeccable veracity and bottomless shamlessly vainglorious 
product promo and faithhealing celebrity implanation/enhancement.

Exes of orgs specially trained to cheat, lie, steal IP, walk on grannies,
etc, and
even more so, the double, triple and bypass XXs of all spinoffs and spin labs, 
are especially welcomed for dangling as irresistable bait for like
super-peepees 
and wannabes seeking Dow-Corninging (D-C Net-neutering, unexpected 
down migration to nether parts, career redirection to geek show Oprahing).

Persons licensed or regulated for betrayal of the public interest for
self-shame,
that is, all who are licensed, regged, SSed and uniformed, get, believe it,
only you,
to-the-trade-only discount/stipend/D-C-reimbursement commensurate with the
maggot-chewed-brain challenged (degree-ed, credentialed up the kazoo, failed 
nontheless no matter repetitive public cry and beg for understanding) of the 
higher prefontal .edu-tree-chewers, arch and anarch contenders with the Grand 
Order/Temple of My Maggots are Better Than Your Maggot (itself being voraciouly 
gnawed and underminded by The Terrible Terroristic Termites, Thine Own Enemy 
Within: Envy Eating Mine Own Soul Food(T5OEW:E2MOSF [not that OSF])).









From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep  3 07:58:09 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:58:09 +0800
Subject: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970903143640.00718780@pop.pipeline.com>



So-called John Young wrote:
>Tim May wrote:

>Announcing Black-and-WhiteNet (256-Gray, plaid, checkered, houndstoothed) 
>Op Center (B&WOC(256-GPC-fang) which will minutely trivialize the most 

Not that it matters, but this is not mine. But not sure how to prove it,
probably
best to not try to be serious and thereby reify parody self-parody,
self-parody, 
self-parody.






From frissell at panix.com  Wed Sep  3 08:15:59 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:15:59 +0800
Subject: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903111019.03640cf0@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:12 AM 9/3/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Yeah, you're missing that Ian's a Canadian, not subject to US laws when
>he's not in US territory, unlike Rivest (but not unlike Shamir.)

I don't know Ian's status but those who are US permanent residents are 
subject to most of these sorts of laws even if they are temporarily outside 
of the US.  Student Visa holders are not permanent residents of course.

>Taking working papers with him might be an export problem, but 
>taking ideas in his head isn't, and when he's at home, he can work,
>subject to Canadian limits on writing, publishing, and internetting crypto.
>If he wants to sell products based on his crypto work,
>there may be student visa issues involved, but there's a Canadian 
corporation
>that can take care of some of those problems for him.

He's probably OK there.  If I am in France, or China, or Canada, I can 
continue to write the great American Novel or the Great American Algorithm 
that I'm working on without violating work permit requirements.

The nice thing about those of us who only sell ideas for a living is that 
they haven't figured out a way to outlaw thinking yet (as much as they've 
tried).

In any case, I take it that Ian is a graduate student which implies that he 
possesses a bachelor's degree from somewhere and thus can work here more or 
less at will for five years.  Under the US-Canada FTA and NAFTA, citizens of 
the three signatory countries who have bachelor's degrees and genuine job 
offers can work in either of the other two countries without going through 
the whole work permit process.  It's just a little paper shuffling at the 
border and "cannot ordinarily be denied".  

So Ian can work here but poor Bill Gates can't work in Canada.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNA1914VO4r4sgSPhAQGmdQP5AdIfzFV0RTNCPUc/G36b8LaZuwTI6tG0
97E5SEgyt0TYLtgLmBLA57s8eiIpbPbKcD4qXUTbjLgee1d7HgIGd+SOrpgAh7rH
87HpRVduFfCet+J9OfBS7apPvmvwTU/OTMRHWX3UyLspDpFakJ9mFNmpZX1jhU+G
0/5FdOYa/5g=
=Ha4r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  3 08:36:26 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:36:26 +0800
Subject: Capitalism 102 (was Re: Things we should be working on...)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote:

> Sorry I "donated" my time making up this list,

To the contrary, it's not a donation at all. I see it as a set of
investment criteria, myself. How is the market going to make something for
you if it doesn't know what you want? Keeping in mind what I said about
privacy being economically efficient, I take what is said on this list
about privacy, "gossip" or not, very seriously, especially when it comes
from someone like you, Tim.

> given the messages I'm
> seeing and the private chastisements of me for daring to suggest.

Maybe they're misinterpreting all the stuff you've said over the years
about "something must be done", "cypherpunks is not a group", and "we"
ought to do to things, etc.

Frankly, a discussion of specifications and desired results is worth much
more than the wasted random effort saved when people just write code and
let god sort it out. I mean, Michaelson-Morley may have been a neat
experimental finding, but nothing really happened with gravity until
Einstein figured out space-time, right?

> Apparently some of you think that only full-time C or Java programmers are
> qualified to make suggestions.

Of course not. See above. There are many more people who know how to write
code than there are like you, Tim, who know what to do it *for*.
Unfortunately, people who write code need to eat. Fortunately, people who
know what to do can raise money to hire people who write code if the idea's
good enough to sell twice: once to investors, and again to the market for
which the code's intended. And, rarely, as in your case, Tim, some people
with money already know what to do and can hire people to do it. If they
can "sell" *themselves* on the idea that the market will buy it. The guy
who founded Aldus did it with Pagemaker. Osbourne did it, too, before he
made the mistake of hiring a completely ignorant "professional" managment...


> And spare me the lectures on Capitalism 101.

Well, it was more for the list's benefit than yours, Tim. You're just my
unsuspecting foil, here. :-).

If, say, John Gilmore were here saying the same kinds of stuff you were,
I'd have sprung my little rhetorical trap for him instead, by getting him
to list what we should do next, and then asking him which ones he's going
to invest in. He'd probably be just as pissed off.

You just got lucky, is all...


Actually, if you count the money and time he's thrown at politics and
lawyers, and S/WAN, and cypherpunks, and a few other things, you might say
Gilmore's made an investment or two. Unfortunately, since he's not using
actual investment criteria -- profits, in other words -- you might consider
those investments to have been accidental. On the other hand, investing is
always about personal choices, whatever they are, and so the loop closes on
itself, I suppose.

The point is, all of the stuff you've listed costs money to do, Tim, or it
would have been done already. Which means, unless you're doing this for a
hobby, spending a very small fraction of your total income, (or an
obsession, taking all of your time and income, which can easily be argued
here on my own part :-),) then the money or time you invest in an activity
has to perpetuate itself, or eventually you won't be able to do it anymore.
Simple economics.


So, Tim, why don't you pick your favorite project on that list, hire some
people to write code, and go for it? Most of the stuff on your list can't
cost that much to do, and, if it did, then it's probably the wrong project
for you, personally, financially, to work on. If that project makes money,
you can reinvest it in something bigger anyway. Capitalism 101.

I think that Sameer in particular proves that the barriers to entry for
some financial cryptography markets are still practically nonexistant from
an investment perspective. Not for the stuff Sameer's doing, of course.
He's raised his own barriers to entry behind him by investing in his
markets already. C2NET was completely bootstrapped, though, and hopefully,
Sameer will never need outside investment. As smart as he is about
business, he'd certainly be a fool to ever take VC money. However, like
Bill Gates, the time may eventually come when he's got so many option
holders in C2NET that the SEC will force him to go public, like they did to
Microsoft, another bootstrapped company.

Anyway, especially in anonymous digital bearer settlement, which is the
really important stuff in financial cryptography, there are lots of
opportunities out there, and some of them are bootstrapable. Some of those
which aren't should be funded by single, monomaniacal, investors like the
Aldus guy did with Pagemaker, or you, Tim, should do with your favorite
project on the list. Hopefully, the rest the non-bootstrap stuff can be
done with e$lab or something like it. At least that's what *I'm* hoping...
;-).

You don't even have to be incredibly active as an investor. Armand Hammer
(not a good example as a human being, but certainly a good one here) got
into the oil business practically by accident *after* he retired, and
pretty much kept a retiree's schedule all throughout Occidental's growth
into a major oil company.



Privacy, financial or otherwise, is economic efficiency. Anyone who
consistantly steers by the star of privacy is going to make money and thus
change the world.

And, Tim, there is no better navigator of those waters, anywhere in the
world, than you are. None.

You're the moral compass most of us in the crypto community have
internalized when we think "what would Tim say" about something we're
thinking about doing.

(Well, you don't steer north all the time, sometimes there are rocks in the
way, but you still have to know where north is, certainly, or you don't
*get* anywhere. ;-))


So, Tim, again, which one of those projects do you want to do? Who are you
going to hire to do them? More important, how much money do you think
you'll get back by doing it?



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From hvdl at sequent.com  Wed Sep  3 08:42:06 1997
From: hvdl at sequent.com (Unicorn)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:42:06 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
Message-ID: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>



Hi Guys (F/M),

I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?  personally I
would love to have this info available on CD-ROM, enabling me to take it
with me wherever  I go (stuck with  a laptop or notebook)...  And yes, I
would of course have no problem with  paying for it, or donating the US$
price to a good course.

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========






From ConorL at flexicom.ie  Wed Sep  3 09:16:04 1997
From: ConorL at flexicom.ie (Conor Lillis)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:16:04 +0800
Subject: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
Message-ID: 



Check the mail headers to see where it originated from ....., and then
blast it with the greatest pile of trash you have, for about a
fortnight.

>----------
>From: 	John Young[SMTP:jya at pipeline.com]
>Sent: 	03 September 1997 15:36
>To: 	cypherpunks at toad.com
>Subject: 	Re: Europe puts pressure on FCC over accounting rate moves
>
>So-called John Young wrote:
>>Tim May wrote:
>
>>Announcing Black-and-WhiteNet (256-Gray, plaid, checkered, houndstoothed) 
>>Op Center (B&WOC(256-GPC-fang) which will minutely trivialize the most 
>
>Not that it matters, but this is not mine. But not sure how to prove it,
>probably
>best to not try to be serious and thereby reify parody self-parody,
>self-parody, 
>self-parody.
>
>






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Sep  3 09:25:00 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:25:00 +0800
Subject: Things we should be working on...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5uk1uc$jso$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



In article <199709022216.XAA00915 at server.test.net>,
Adam Back   wrote:
>
>Tim May  writes:
>> One more question. Could you tell us which things you are talking about
>> here, which things you returned to Canada to implement?
>
>I can't see that export controls are much of a big deal for freeware
>cypherpunk software ... just publish it on a US site with whatever
>access controls you fancy.  It'll make it's way out of the country in
>a few minutes and end up on replay.com, or one of the automated
>mirrors of export control sites at ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/ or
>where ever.
>
>It's not as if you're trying to sell it, or are a corporation worrying
>about stepping on toes at NSA Inc. 
>
>> If you are actually going to Canada to release products, this might be even
>> more interesting than either the Junger or Bernstein cases. Of course, if
>> you discuss this openly, you may be inviting repercussions.
>
>Just release it in the US.  Lets someone else do the export.

I'm not primarily talking about _products_, here; I'm not selling stuff.
I'm just trying to publish!  Part of my research (which focuses on computer
security) involves (surprise) building secure systems or breaking insecure
ones.  Where this involves cryptography or cryptanalysis, I am prohibited
from publishing these systems on the Net, from my homepage (and I don't
_want_ to put access control on my homepage).

To answer Tim: for example, when I was in Canada last, I wrote Top Gun ssh
(secure shell for the Pilot) from the ground up.  It would be hard to
understand how this could be a violation of US export regs, when nothing
involved ever _entered_, let alone was _exported_ from, the US.

I do understand that US citizens and Permanent Residents are prohibited
from giving crypto to foreigners even when they are outside of the US,
but I'm neither of those.  The BXA _could_ try the old "let's tax all
foreigners living abroad" tactic, of course...

   - Ian






From azur at netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 09:33:47 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:33:47 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



Yes, well this may give some of the citizens that don't object to the
burgeoning surveillence cameras in public areas something to think about,
after they receive their citation.

>At 8:29 AM -0500 9/3/97, Chip Mefford wrote:
>Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia
>
>Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
>be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
>traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.
[snip]
>
>In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
>have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
>Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!

--Steve







From hvdl at sequent.com  Wed Sep  3 09:56:37 1997
From: hvdl at sequent.com (Unicorn)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:56:37 +0800
Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
Message-ID: <19970903182604.17756@sequent.com>



Hi Guys (F/M),

Just a quick question.

Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if
not how can  one publish (the public  part of) such a  key using nothing
more than email or a web-browser behind a firewall that does not allow a
direct connection to a keyserver on port 11371?

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Sep  3 10:17:38 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:17:38 +0800
Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
In-Reply-To: <19970903182604.17756@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <199709031654.LAA27137@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970903182604.17756 at sequent.com>, on 09/03/97 
   at 06:26 PM, Unicorn  said:

>Just a quick question.

>Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
>store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if
>not how can  one publish (the public  part of) such a  key using nothing
>more than email or a web-browser behind a firewall that does not allow a
>direct connection to a keyserver on port 11371?

All of the PGP public keyservers accept keys & keyrequests by e-mail.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNA2ItI9Co1n+aLhhAQGamwP9GSRL7Z5iVfRydlK4Or+bDS4BRij9oC6g
AhlZBVhT8iqT4Kp4C2ConIiTHYaz1B/oI4FZzSf2+F1r0sT8Q1mmfkuKmzYOsJCT
ZFyZrWeSpNnbN97s/fGHTz5ranhbLZ/EHj56GqeDtZbZ7c00KLAj170N2FmiK9TH
bdjbFkzSDZU=
=QhiD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 10:21:42 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:21:42 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199708281520.RAA25882@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903101219.00718ed4@popd.netcruiser>



At 08:29 AM 9/3/97 -0500, Chip Mefford wrote:
>Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia
>
>Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
>be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
>traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.
>
>Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
>deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
>intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
>boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
>traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
>kicking.
>
>In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
>have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
>Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!
>
>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>
>This is truely a great day.
>
>Weep for joy!
>
>I love Big Brother.

This program has been in effect in San Francisco, People's Republik Of
Kalifornia, for over a year now.

BTW, in the vicinity of the I-80/I-680 interchange there are an array of
things suspended over the freeway that look like the sensors from metal
detectors, except they are about the size and shape of fluorescent light
fixtures.  They are opaque white plastic, suspended horizontally, with the
long axis crossing the lanu over which it is hung.  There is a cable
entering them at the top, and are suspended over all lanes of traffic
(except the fast lane) in both directions, as well as the on/off-ramps to
I-680.  Directly underneath them are sensor loops similar to what you might
find by traffic lights downtown.  The poles from from which they are hung
have 18-24 inch dish antennas, which point to the CHP truck scales which
are about 1 mile down the road from each sensor array.  Does anyone have
any idea what the devil these things are?  I have been trying to find
someone who knows for several weeks now, but nobody seems to know.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:
> Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia
> 
> Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
> be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
> traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.
> 
> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
> intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
> boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
> traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
> kicking.
> 
> In the month since this "trial program" began, over 3 thousand citations
> have been prepared and will be in the mail as of TODAY!!!. All Hail Big
> Brother, security is at hand!! Hurrah!!
> 
> With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
> placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
> 
> This is truely a great day.
> 
> Weep for joy!
> 
> I love Big Brother.
> 

I just moved to Fairfax County from Ft. Collins, CO (not a military base,
just a town that was one in the 1800's).  Ft. Collins has the red-light
surveillance cameras, but also has one other added bonus:  speed cameras.

There are several unmarked SUVs (when I left there was at least a GMC Jimmy,
a Ford Explorer, and a generic Chevy truck) that get parked on the sidewalk,
the bike lane and in people's lawns.  They leave a cop in the front to
eat donuts and watch TV, and in the back there is a video camera and a radar
gun.  On the front driver's side mirror there's another camera.  When you
drive by too fast, you get your picture taken (front and back) and a ticket
gets mailed to you a week later.

Not only do they take your picture, but they block the sidewal, bike lane,
and your lawn if they choose to park there.  There's been several suits
against the city, since hte vehicles are technically owned by the company
that makes the cameras (and so should not be parking on the sidewalk, your
lawn, etc...) but as far as I know, nothing has come of the suits.

Of course, it's for your own protection... as everyone knows, you can't take
care of yourself unless there's a government employee there to help you.

-nate

--
  Nate Sammons                          nate at infidels.org
                                        http://sulaco.proxicom.com:7000/~nate






From amp at pobox.com  Wed Sep  3 10:48:02 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:48:02 +0800
Subject: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



 
> Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government
> going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever
> basis they wish?

and in a society with ubiquitous internet access there will be no way to 
=know= what color someone is unless he advertises it in his sig file.

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/03/97
Time: 10:54:11
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903134233.03644340@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>I do understand that US citizens and Permanent Residents are prohibited
>from giving crypto to foreigners even when they are outside of the US,

Or giving it to foreigners even when those foreigners are *in* the US.

>but I'm neither of those.  The BXA _could_ try the old "let's tax all
>foreigners living abroad" tactic, of course...

'Mericans probably don't realize that there is a distinction between 
Permanent Residents (PRs) and other sorts of ferriners.  All of the Feds' 
cute extra-territoriality ploys:  outlawing gold ownership in '33, outlawing 
unlicensed space launches in 85(?), outlawing working on anything in Cuba or 
on nuclear power plants in the old bad South Africa, or outlawing exporting 
crypto, or blocking ownership of 60% of the world's mutual funds, or levying 
taxes on worldwide income, etc. apply to US citizens, US permanent residents, 
and in some cases those present in the US.

Thus US citizens and PRs were prohibited from owning gold anywhere on earth 
from 1933 to 1980.  Same with the rest (with numerous complications).

A student Visa holder is most assuredly not a PR and so would not be covered 
by these laws save to the extent that they cover all those present in the US.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Wed Sep  3 11:20:46 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 02:20:46 +0800
Subject: Missing Kids and Porn Links
In-Reply-To: <19970903035857.3253.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903105138.041d53e0@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 11:38 PM 9/2/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>Most of people who publicly "care for children" are hidden pedophiles or
>control freaks, in my humble opinion.

I believe that many of them are people who feed off of the
endorphin/adreniline rush of being "outraged".  They need something to get
upset about.  Who cares if it is real or who gets hurt?  They are "doing
good by getting pissed".  It is that "moral outrage" that makes them forget
just how worthless and pathetic their own lives are.

It would be pretty sad if was not for the fact that so many people buy into
their moral crusades.
 
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From sobel at epic.org  Wed Sep  3 11:59:40 1997
From: sobel at epic.org (David L. Sobel)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 02:59:40 +0800
Subject: Clinton, Commerce, and Crypto scandal
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




At 3:07 AM -0500 9/3/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

...

>Tim Maier's Insight article isn't all that bad, but he obviously doesn't have
>a good perspective on crypto technology, and unfortunately none of the
>web pages involved contain good email pointers to their authors :-)
>	(On the other hand, one of the references said Dave Sobel has copies.)

Through FOIA litigation, we received a redacted version of a Commerce/NSA
document titled "A Study of the International Market for Computer Software
with Encryption."  I subsequently learned that the index of documents in
Ira Sockowitz's safe includes both the unredacted and the redacted versions
of this document.  It is wholly coincidental that EPIC was interested in
the same material as was Sockowitz -- we requested this document and filed
suit for it before any of the events recounted in the Insight article
took place.  In fact, we posted the text of the Executive Summary of the
study at our site in January 1996:

http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/commerce_study_summary.html

Subsequent litigation resulted in the release of a *less sanitized* version
of the entire study in June 1996.

David Sobel
Legal Counsel, EPIC







From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Wed Sep  3 12:13:53 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:13:53 +0800
Subject: Thought Police Make Bust
Message-ID: 



WEIRDNUZ.492 (News of the Weird, July 11, 1997)
by Chuck Shepherd

* Brothers Geoffrey and Aaron Kuffner were arrested in New
Orleans in June and charged with terrorism as the ones who had
recently mailed or hand-delivered suspicious packages to local
government and news media offices.  The packages contained
innocuous items (which nonetheless were frightening enough that
two offices called for evacuations) and a four-page manifesto
vowing that "Violent Acts of Consciousness Have Only Begun." 
According to police, the men's goal was to call attention to public
ignorance of poetry and that among their demands was that all state
inaugural speeches be written in iambic pentameter. 

Cypherpunks Action Project #323a:
Post a message to the list in iambic pentameter. (That'll show 'em.)

Cypherpunks Action Project #323b:
Turn yourself into the police as a terrorist, for "Violent Acts of
Subconsiousness." Take your Dream Diary with you, as proof.

Cypherpunks Action Project #323c:
Write your violent dreams in iambic pentameter.

PentaMonger






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Wed Sep  3 12:36:32 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:36:32 +0800
Subject: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709031928.PAA27825@www.video-collage.com>



At 12:01 AM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
...
>(It is true that the vast majority of Cypherpunks are basically
>libertarian, and hence are not keen on government programs to favor one
>race or sex or group over another. Jesse Jackson calls this point of view
>"racism." "Ending discrimination in favor of some races is racism," he
>claims. Most list members would reject this.)
>
>Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government
>going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever
>basis they wish?
...
Another consideration is the government spin doctor.
With the Oklahoma City federal Building Bombing, the government had a new
bad guy.  Everyone despised this bad guy because this bad guy had been
responsible for the death of innocent children.
This bad guy was the mostly Anglo-Saxon Militant Extreme Right-Wingers.
By tying this group to the bombing, something that in many peoples opinion
they did perfectly.  They assured that people wouldn't associate with them,
and would prosecute them for any little thing.
They immediately tied these groups with gun ownership.  They also tied these
groups with white supremism.
Now if you own a gun, you must be a racist and a militia member, if your white.
If your black, you are already figured as a drug dealer, another bogeyman,
so they had that base covered.
By tying crypto into the same militia movement.  Not hard since several
posts refer to the second ammendment, (if you have to invoke the second
ammendment, you are obviously a militia sypathesizer/member/co-conspirator.)
Now that we are the first distributed dangerous militia, we must obviously
all be racists because everyone knows that militia members are all racist,
gun toting, wackos that run around the woods, shoot at cops and blow up
buildings.
Next stop, the distributed Ruby Ridge.  Where every prominent member who
does more than blow hot air will be rounded up, shot for looking funny, and
passed off as enemies of the state.  The rest of us will be left to blow hot
air to give credence to their claims.






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Sep  3 12:52:22 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:52:22 +0800
Subject: [PGP-USERS] Crypto-logic US$1 million Challenge
In-Reply-To: <97090316550827/0002595870PK5EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <199709031939.OAA29483@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97090316550827/0002595870PK5EM at mcimail.com>, on 09/03/97 
   at 11:55 AM, Jeffrey Gold <0002595870 at MCIMAIL.COM> said:

>Although it's not PGP, I thought this might be of interest.
>I've condensed a Wall Street Journal Article with info from
>the web page http://www.ultimateprivacy.com

>  A start-up company is offering a $1 million challenge. Crypto-
>Logic Corp. of Austin, Texas, claims to have created an encryption 
>system for electronic mail so foolproof that it can't be broken.  If
>someone can  figure out a special encrypted e-mail message  within a
>year, the company says it will pay a reward of $1 million.

>  Cryptologists agree that the decades-old encryption method   that
>Crypto-Logic is claiming to use -- called a "one-time pad" -- 
>is theoretically unbreakable. Each "pad" has a set of uniquely 
>random digital symbols that are coded to the actual message. 
>The recipient uses the same symbols to decrypt the message. 
>The pads are used only once.

>  Of course, the problem with any one-time pad is the distribution
>of multiple pads.  A new one is needed for each message.  Public-key
>cryptography (used by PGP) addresses this issue.  It is not clear
>how Crypto-Logic Corp. addresses the distribution issue.


ROTFLMAO!!!!!

What a sweet little scam they have going here. :)

While there product cost $99, which is not unreasonable for a security product of this nature, they charge $49 for the "OTP's" (I'll get to the OTP's later)!!!

Now they way they have this set-up is that for each person that you are communicating with requires a separate "OTP". The program comes with 2 "OTP's" and additional "OTP's" can be purchased for $49. So say you have 10 people you wish to communicate with you are talking almost $500 out the gate to get going!!! This is just silly.


Now to "OTP's". These are the things that snake-oil salesmen's dreams are made of. Here is how their sales pitch works (and i have seen many of them over the years):


1) OTP's are unbreakable
2) We use an OTP
3) Our program is unbreakable
4) You should use our program

I will address all three points of their sales pitch and show the flaws in it.

1) OTP's are unbreakable:

  To understand how one can make this claim (and it is true) on needs to understand what a OTP is and how it works.

A OPT (One Time Pad) is just a file of random numbers. That's it, nothing fancy here. To encrypt a message one takes the bits in the plaintext and an equal amount of bits from the OTP and XOR them together. The result is just another random file of bits. To get the plaintext back one takes the "encrypted" files and Xor's it with the same bits used the first time.

Quite simple but there is a catch:

  Your OTP must but TRULY RANDOM!! If there are any patterns in your "random" data you are dead in the water. The biggest flaw in products that claim to use OTP's is they use what is called a PRNG (pseudo random number generator). Unfortunately the data that PRNG's produce are not sufficiently "random" for use in OTP's. It has long been accepted in the field of cryptology that you *MUST* use a real world sample for random data, things like measuring the time intervals between click on a Geiger counter measuring background radiation.

A second catch:

  You must never, never reuse any of the bits from your OTP!!! As simple as this seems (after all this is why they call it an One Time Pad) there are programmers out there that fail to grasp this basic concept. Now AFAIK there is no pad reuse with this program. That's where their revenue stream is comming from charging you for the new pads!

So if you use truly random data (no PRNG's) and you never reuse bits then an OTP encrypted message is provably unbreakable.


2) We use OTP's

I have seen numerous claims by various "snake-oil" salesmen that their program uses an OTP only too see that they are using a PRNG to generate their "OTP". I even had one claim that it was ok to reuse his PRNG generated pad.

Now since the company provided no details on how they generate the OTP's who knows what they are doing.

3) Our program is unbreakable

Well if they are dotting all their I's and crossing all their T's when it comes to generating and using OTP's then yes the message is unbreakable.

But wait their program does not generate the OTP's you must buy them from the company!! This means that a 3rd party outside of you and the person you are communicating with has a copy of the pad!!! This is a big no-no in cryptology. Anyone who has access to the OTP can decrypt any message that was encrypted using it. What type of security do they have on site? Who has access to the OTP's?? How are they generated?? What are their policies if the government requests access to these OTP's?? All questions left unanswered by the company.

I must say that I seriously question the on-site security of the OTP's considering how the initial OTP's are sent to the customer, (drum roll please), the just MAIL them!!!!

This brings us to the third catch to using OTP's: How to exchange the pads.

Before the advent of Public Key Encryption this was the most daunting task in cryptology. How do you get the keys to the people who need them to decrypt the message??? With OTP's or any form of cryptology where the same key is used to encrypt and decrypt the message the user must find a "secure" channel for exchanging the keys. This is no different than a key to a house or a car, the same key is used to lock and unlock the door. Anyone who has a copy of the key can unlock the door. Need less to say you don't just send the key in the mail. Usually such exchanges are done in person or if this is not practical a "trusted" courier is used to exchange the key. Not very practical for every day use.


4) You should use our program

Consider the following:

- -- Unknown methods used for generation Otp's
- -- Customer unable to generate their own OTP's
- -- Unknown "on-site" security
- -- Otp's escrowed by company (they have a copy of your keys)
- -- Additional cost for each new key
- -- Obvious lack of security in mailing initial Otp's to customers
- -- No solution to the key exchange problem
- -- No source code for program

I would not use this program nor would I recommend it to anyone else. There are may other programs that provide overall better security than what this program ever can or ever will provide.

I will CC: the Cyberpunks & Coderpunks list as there may be others there who can better expand on this issue.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 12:54:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:54:07 +0800
Subject: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I almost deleted these messages from Bob, but have decided to say a few
words about financing companies "to help the Cypherpunks cause."

As I lack the energy right now to compose an essay from scratch, I'll take
the easier way out and respond to Bob's points.

At 7:23 AM -0700 9/3/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>
>> Sorry I "donated" my time making up this list,
>
>To the contrary, it's not a donation at all. I see it as a set of
>investment criteria, myself. How is the market going to make something for
>you if it doesn't know what you want? Keeping in mind what I said about

To the contrary, I never write political and socioeconomic essays with the
expectation that someone out there will be "making something for me."
That's just plain disconnected from reality thinking. Why I write, and what
I write, has various motivations. No time to delve into a psychoanalysis of
this right now--my Cyhernomicon has sections describing the confluence of
technologies and opportunities I saw beginning in about 1987 or so, with
comments on why I think these are such exciting issues. I write because the
ideas interest me, not to make a few bucks. (And, as I explain later, the
odds of losing $1-2 million in VC investments grossly outweigh the odds of
making $10-20 M. Grossly.)

But generating "VC funding requests" is most definitely not even in my Top
Ten of reasons.

>Maybe they're misinterpreting all the stuff you've said over the years
>about "something must be done", "cypherpunks is not a group", and "we"
>ought to do to things, etc.

>From Day One, I have not shied away from talking about interesting building
blocks.  Including remailers, which I briefed the attendees at the first
meeting on (having been mightily influenced by Chaum's 1981 brief paper on
untraceable e-mail). And so on. This is well-covered history.

It is true that I try to avoid using the language "Here's is what I want
you to work on," and variants. My "things we need to work on" was my name
for a list--and not the first one--of things which I think are a lot more
interesting and important than working on, say, lists of "things that make
Cypherpunks happy," or silk-screening new t-shirts with the slogan du jour.

>Frankly, a discussion of specifications and desired results is worth much
>more than the wasted random effort saved when people just write code and
>let god sort it out. I mean, Michaelson-Morley may have been a neat
>experimental finding, but nothing really happened with gravity until
>Einstein figured out space-time, right?

I agree with this. Certainly for all of the chants about "Cypherpunks write
code," and the several years worth of (apparently) several dozen folks here
writing code of some sort, what are we really left with that has had a
major effect? Most of the code apparently being written either never makes
it into products, or is buried deeply, or just evaporates (as code tends to
do, a la bit rot). PGP, SSH, the remailer code, and a few other such
achivements are what lasts.

I don't trash such efforts. Rather, I think it means that it is vitally
important that we think carefully about what code is interesting and
important. This beats the hell out of people just starting in at coding for
the sake of coding.

Part of coding is carefully deciding what to code. This is Programming 101,
or at least should be. Deciding that a simple remailer would be an
interesting thing to code was  the important part of getting remailers
deployed....the actual coding of the first actual remailer (of the
Cypherpunks "true" style, not the WizVax/Kleinpaste/Helsingius nym server
style) took a weekend of Perl hacking by Eric Hughes. Knowing _what_ to
program is 90% of the effort.

...
>Of course not. See above. There are many more people who know how to write
>code than there are like you, Tim, who know what to do it *for*.
>Unfortunately, people who write code need to eat. Fortunately, people who
>know what to do can raise money to hire people who write code if the idea's
>good enough to sell twice: once to investors, and again to the market for

This is the crux of my essay here. Read this part even if you skip the rest.

First, this grossly oversimplifies the process of funding companies.
Methinks Bob has read about Jim Clarke's decision to fund Andreesson and
Company too many times. Rarely (very rarely) do the VCs hire people to
write the code for some vision.

Second, writing code is cheap, and requires almost no capital. No
factories, no chip making machines, no clean rooms, etc. Just a bunch of
people with ideas doing it themselves.  Nearly all successful software
companies started out with almost no working capital.

(By contrast, I've watched several "idea" companies which had the "grand
vision" first and then sought to hire the hired guns to write the code. All
four that I have followed failed. One burned through about $5 million,
another through $2 million. And one that just finally gave up the ghost is
reported (by a friend of mine, and I haven't been able to confirm it) to
have absorbed more than $30 million in funding by the initial investors and
then by the parent company which acquired or  semi-acquired them and pumped
more money in.)

Third, I've seen a lot of programmers here in the Bay Area, either because
of my work at Intel on AI/Lisp sorts of stuff, or the Hackers Conference,
or many years of Bay Area parties, Cypherpunks events, etc.  A handful of
these programmers seem to be truly gifted...the rest are, well, hackers. OK
for churning out code with well-defined specifications (and even then the
well known Brooks' Law sorts of factors can make some of them grossly
unproductve). The few who seem really gifted would be fools to work for a
pittance for me--and I'm not willing to give them their easily-gotten daily
consulting rates for months on end, etc.

Fourth, in my years of Cypherpunks involvement, I have never seen any
reasonable investment opportunities. This is not to say there have not been
any, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Side note: There have been several startups loosely associated, or even
closely associated, with Cypherpunks. Some were started before (Cygnus. for
example), and cannot really be called CP companies. What about C2 Net? I
have no idea what that company is now worth, but I know that it evolved
from Sameer's Community Connexxion. While we all nodded and applauded
Sameer's plan to hook up his dorm or whatever with terminals in the
bathrooms (I'm not joking, by the way), I never saw this as something to
put hard-earned money into. Nor did Sameer solicit "angels" to fund this
vision. At least I never heard him soliciting. He probably--and I haven't
checked with him on this--knew that the best opportunities were funded on a
shoestring, by those involved directly, by those living the dream, and that
diluting his ownership with outside funding would be a mistake. And this
shoestring operation was able to more nimbly move to take advantage of
opportunities, e.g., dropping the original focus on being a kind of "local
ISP" (which is what I perceived the original CC to be) and to instead focus
on SSLeay/Stronghold stuff.

Other companies have sought funding in a grander way. E.g., PGP, Inc. I had
no desire to invest in them, for various reasons. I wish them well, of
course.

Eric Hughes has a company, "Simple Access." To tell the truth, and in spite
of Eric being a longtime friend of mine (since 1990 at least), I really
have no idea what they do. The "www.sac.net" site is remarkably
uninformative. Perhaps by design. In any case, I don't think investing
money in this is what I want to do.

And there's Electric Communities (www.communities.com), containing several
past or present Cypherpunks. I have a lot of hope from them, for
"Microcosm," but,again, this is someone else's vision. It's too soon to
tell if they have a killer app on their hands. If they do, then business
magazines will write sage articles on the wisdom of the VCs. If not, as the
odds must say is likelier, just by Bayesian odds, then they'll be
forgotten, and the VC money will have just evaporated.


Fifth, what I have seen from all of these experiences is that the popular
impression of VC funding, that someone has a good idea, then finds a VC
angel to provide seed funding, then worker bees are hired, etc., is
basically wrong. Or at least a recipe for disaster.

The best growth opportunities come from nimble, mostly self-funded small
teams that can learn in an evolutionary way, changing focus as failures
occur and learning from mistakes. The worst growth opportunities come from
"grand vision" situations.

Sixth, we often forget that "history is written by the winners." We ask the
five star general what his strategies were, forgetting that he became a
general because he survived the battles and triumphed. Sort of like asking
the Lottery winner what her strategy was....one will get answers, but they
probably won't be useful.

Asking Jim Clarke or Bill Gates to opine on his strategies for success is
not quite as pointless, but is not real useful either. Ask also Manny
Fernandez about Gavilan Computer. Or ask the financiers of Ovation,
Processor Technology, Mad Computers, Symbolics, Thinking Machines, Trilogy,
or a hundred other examples of companies that burned through a billion
dollars of hard-earned investor money.

Seventh, I have no doubt that if I issued a cattle call for programmers to
write C code for some pet project I'd get some bites. The "burn rate" for a
supported programmer is higher than the salary, of course. (Many will work
for a share of the company, plus a living wage, but this of course means
incorporation....not a simple matter of just offering to hire programmers.)

Those small software companies I mentioned burned through $5 million in 3
or so years, with nothing to show for it. And they sure did have the grand
vision. Sorry, but I have no desire in even "giving away" a million bucks,
let alone several.

(Another sidenote: In 1993 I elected to help fund a small startup with an
extremely promising technology. And the principals were, and still are,
incredibly hard working people. I call them "sled dogs" for their
perseverance and 80 hours a week (each) work habits. I bought a small stake
in the company, for about $65K. So did several others. And some contract
money came in. The entire funding was burned through in a matter of a year
or two, and now they're struggling. They can't raise moe without giving
their remaining ownership of the company away, and potential investors
would want to see a real product, which they don't have. I still wish them
well, but....tick tock. And that $65K investment necessitated my sale of
$100K worth of various stocks, inclduding Intel, due to the income tax laws
being what they are. That $100K worth of stock would now be worth $600K,
roughly, given that Intel has gone from $15 to $100 in that period. C'est
la vie. But is sure makes me more cautious about funding little startups.
And I for damned sure won't write out checks for people I only casually
know from this mailing list and from occassional Cypherpunks meetings!!!)

I could easily spend $500K (costing me an actual $700K before taxes, less
some tax deductions as a business, possibly) hiring a staff of several
programmers for slightly more than a year. Then it'd be gone. Would a
"product"  be ready? You tell me the odds.

And what would come out of such an effort? I've watched a certain American
living in Europe burn through most (and maybe all?) of his fortune, and
(some say) his family's fortune, and he had the best of pedigrees and the
best set of ideas there is. Now many of us quibble with the choices he
made, in licensing, etc., but this should be a cautionary tale to anyone
who thinks such funding is easy.

I'm not being defeatist. I know that sometimes a $500K investment could
turn into tens of millions. It sometimes happens. But usually not, even for
the proposals that get funded. (And VCs tend to look at 10 to 30 proposals
for every one they actually fund, so the odds in the Cypherpunks pool ain't
real great that even a single proposal would reach the funding stage, let
alone turn into another Netscape or Yahoo.)

No, I'm not a defeatist. But I worked very hard for many years, saving a
large fraction of my paycheck and saving my purchased stock (including
stock options, which were not as lucrative as popular myth might have
it...what made them now worth so much money is that I didn't sell them when
they became available, as so many of my coworkers did). I don't intend to
blow through half a million or a million bucks a year funding some grand
vision, especially when there seem to be few grand visions that are
realistic.

(Plenty of zealots, though.)

>which the code's intended. And, rarely, as in your case, Tim, some people
>with money already know what to do and can hire people to do it. If they
>can "sell" *themselves* on the idea that the market will buy it. The guy
>who founded Aldus did it with Pagemaker. Osbourne did it, too, before he
>made the mistake of hiring a completely ignorant "professional" managment...

The Pagemaker team wrote it on a shoestring. No VCs until much later, when
a product existed. (BTW, similar to the models for both PGP, Inc. and
C2Net, where actual products are actually being sold or distributed.)

As it happens, I knew Adam Osbourne. (I used to go to the Homebrew Computer
Club, circa 1976-78, and met many of those who later became famous. This
also helped shape my skepticism about predicting success, as I would surely
have funded Bob Marsh at Processor Tech before funding Woz and Jobs...and
in fact I bought a Proc Tech Sol-20 in 1978 rather than an "Apple.")


>Well, it was more for the list's benefit than yours, Tim. You're just my
>unsuspecting foil, here. :-).
>
>If, say, John Gilmore were here saying the same kinds of stuff you were,
>I'd have sprung my little rhetorical trap for him instead, by getting him
>to list what we should do next, and then asking him which ones he's going
>to invest in. He'd probably be just as pissed off.

The problem with your "rhetorical traps," by your own admission, is that
you just don't know what you're talking about in most cases, at least
insofar as startups and funding go. I recall your "hothouse" VC proposal (I
may have the name wrong, but the idea was the same as one of those hothouse
schemes, with offices for budding entrepreneurs, etc.).

Maybe in another post I'll give my views on why such hothouse schemes are
lousy ideas. But if yours is up and running and headed for success, I'll be
happy to stand corrected.



>Actually, if you count the money and time he's thrown at politics and
>lawyers, and S/WAN, and cypherpunks, and a few other things, you might say
>Gilmore's made an investment or two. Unfortunately, since he's not using
>actual investment criteria -- profits, in other words -- you might consider
>those investments to have been accidental. On the other hand, investing is
>always about personal choices, whatever they are, and so the loop closes on
>itself, I suppose.

John chooses to do the things he chooses to do. He has more interest in, or
faith in, the legal process. I have more interest in, or faith in, the
expository process. I write about 100 times as much as he does. To each
their own.

I won't get involved in Bob's seeming challenge to me to start matching
John's investments.

>The point is, all of the stuff you've listed costs money to do, Tim, or it
>would have been done already. Which means, unless you're doing this for a
>hobby, spending a very small fraction of your total income, (or an

It costs money, but almost certainly not VC money. Take just one example,
an offshore credit reporting agency not bound by U.S. restrictions under
the FCRA. There is no need for a VC to fund this...this is best done "on a
shoestring" by someone who starts small and expands.

(Think of how Amazon.com got started. Lots of similar examples.)

Personally, I would only get involved in such a thing if I lived offshore,
as the government could otherwise come after me (even for funding such a
thing). But the interesting pros and cons of such a project are well worth
discussing. Maybe someone out there will do it.

(This space reserved for someone to chime in about Vince Cate's ISP
operation in Anguilla.)


>So, Tim, why don't you pick your favorite project on that list, hire some
>people to write code, and go for it? Most of the stuff on your list can't
>cost that much to do, and, if it did, then it's probably the wrong project
>for you, personally, financially, to work on. If that project makes money,
>you can reinvest it in something bigger anyway. Capitalism 101.

Why don't you knock off the "Put up or shut up" kinds of remarks? It's
never a good basis for investment, to respond to "dares."

I'll say what I want to say. Maybe even someday a good investment will
appear. But from what I've seen of the folks at gatherings I meet them at,
few of them would be good candidates for a VC-funded approach.


>I think that Sameer in particular proves that the barriers to entry for
>some financial cryptography markets are still practically nonexistant from
>an investment perspective. Not for the stuff Sameer's doing, of course.

No, what it shows is the power of small entrepreneurs doing very local
things, with the things that succeed being all that we remember (the losers
are forgotten).



>Anyway, especially in anonymous digital bearer settlement, which is the
>really important stuff in financial cryptography, there are lots of
>opportunities out there, and some of them are bootstrapable. Some of those
>which aren't should be funded by single, monomaniacal, investors like the
>Aldus guy did with Pagemaker, or you, Tim, should do with your favorite
>project on the list. Hopefully, the rest the non-bootstrap stuff can be
>done with e$lab or something like it. At least that's what *I'm* hoping...
>;-).

Yeah, well let us know when "e$lab" gets really rolling. Personally, I
think you undercut your own significance by the heavy reliance on cutesy
names centering around "$" in place of "s," as in "e-$pam" and "e$lab."
Cutesy wears thin fast.



>So, Tim, again, which one of those projects do you want to do? Who are you
>going to hire to do them? More important, how much money do you think
>you'll get back by doing it?

See above for my answer.

In the meantime, knock off with the dares.

Maybe we should just mutually ignore each other for a while.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 12:59:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 03:59:58 +0800
Subject: Fate of Jews in America (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:54 AM -0700 9/3/97, amp at pobox.com wrote:
>
>> Besides, in a society with strong crypto, how are you or any government
>> going to stop people from dealing with whomever they wish, on whatever
>> basis they wish?
>
>and in a society with ubiquitous internet access there will be no way to
>=know= what color someone is unless he advertises it in his sig file.


"On the Internet no one knows you're a nigger."



(Lest anyone be offended, I'm using the vernacular used by colored people.
And I'm paraphrasing the famous cartoon. And I'm using strong language to
make the point as some might themselves make it.)

And this point isn't even strictly true, even for dogs. No doubt dogs on
the Internet would advertise their pedigrees, as people do. And even race
can and is advertised. Also, it is quite possible to imagine the form
"racial credentialling" by private entities could take: visual inspections,
with digital signatures given. DNA tests, etc. Those who want to hang out
with other brothers, or other Aryans, or other Jews, could do so by asking
for such credentials, which of course could be formally isolated from one's
True Name.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









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From: Selective.Marketing at mail.jax.bellsouth.net (Selective.Marketing at mail.jax.bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Here It Is !!
Message-ID: < >


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From cmefford at avwashington.com  Wed Sep  3 13:21:19 1997
From: cmefford at avwashington.com (Chip Mefford)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:21:19 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Nate wrote;

Snip
>  They leave a cop in the front to
>eat donuts and watch TV, and in the back there is a video camera and a radar
>gun.  On the front driver's side mirror there's another camera.  When you
>drive by too fast, you get your picture taken (front and back) and a ticket
>gets mailed to you a week later.


Now THAT is interesting,

seems in Colo, they have some idea about the bill of rights, even though
the plunger-kicker is a doughnut whore, it is still present at the scene,
rather than being an unmanned Bot.

So the plunger-kicker, hypothetically could be crossexamined in court,
unlike the Bots of the Peoples Republik of Virginia.

Isn't there a wierd clause about being able to face your accuser??? Yeah, I
know, I live in a fantasy world.

luv
chipper








From nate at infidels.org  Wed Sep  3 13:28:50 1997
From: nate at infidels.org (Nate Sammons)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:28:50 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:
> Nate wrote;
> 
> Snip
> >  They leave a cop in the front to
> >eat donuts and watch TV, and in the back there is a video camera and a radar
> >gun.  On the front driver's side mirror there's another camera.  When you
> >drive by too fast, you get your picture taken (front and back) and a ticket
> >gets mailed to you a week later.
> 
> 
> Now THAT is interesting,
> 
> seems in Colo, they have some idea about the bill of rights, even though
> the plunger-kicker is a doughnut whore, it is still present at the scene,
> rather than being an unmanned Bot.
> 
> So the plunger-kicker, hypothetically could be crossexamined in court,
> unlike the Bots of the Peoples Republik of Virginia.
> 
> Isn't there a wierd clause about being able to face your accuser??? Yeah, I
> know, I live in a fantasy world.
> 
> luv
> chipper
> 

Yes... in CO you can take them to court, and if the cop doesn't show up, you
get off free.  I dunno about VA (just moved here 2 months ago).

In CO, you're supposed to be able to ask the cop if you can see the radar
gun that clocked you, and if it's been cleared or the cop won't show it to
you, you cannot be ticketed.  By law, the cop *must* have a visual estimate
of your speed, and a clocked speed on a gun of some kind (a friend of mine is
a Sheriff in southern CO), but they apparently don't tell that to anyone.

-nate







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep  3 14:37:49 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 05:37:49 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: 



All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
afternoon.

FBI Director Louis Freeh also told a Senate Judiciary
subcommittee that "network service providers should be
required to have some immediate decryption ability
available" permitting agents to readily descramble
encrypted messages that pass through their system.

This marks the most aggressive push to date for
mandatory domestic key escrow (or "key recovery"),
which means someone else other than the recipient can
decipher messages you send out. Now, the easiest way
to win such a political tussle in Washington is to
control the terms of the debate. And nobody
understands that rule better than Sen. Jon Kyl
(R-Arizona), chair of the Judiciary subcommittee on
technology, terrorism, and government information.

Kyl opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose
was to discuss crypto in a balanced manner, but that
he wanted "to explore how encryption is affecting the
way we deal with criminals, terrorists, and the
security needs of business." Then he talked at length
about "criminals and terrorists" using crypto, and
child pornographers "using encryption to hide
pornographic images of children that they transmit
across the Internet."

Kyl also stacked the three panels. Out of seven
witnesses, five were current or former law enforcement
agents. No privacy or civil liberties advocates
testified. Some companies including FedEx apparently
dropped out when told they'd have to pay lip service
to key escrow if they wanted to speak.

Dorothy Denning, a Georgetown University professor of
computer science, did testify. Kyl made a point of
asking her if she still supported key escrow systems
(two recent articles by Will Rodger and Simson
Garfinkel said she was changing her mind). "I think
key recovery offers a very attractive approach,"
Denning said. What about export controls? "In the
absence of any controls, the problem for law
enforcement would get worse," she replied.

But when Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif) asked if
Denning would support a *mandatory* key escrow system,
the computer scientist said she wouldn't. "No, because
we don't have a lot of experience we key recovery
systems... a lot of people are legitimately nervous."

(Keep in mind that although Feinstein supposedly
represents Silicon Valley, she's no friend of high
tech firms. She opposes lifting export controls; in
fact, she says that "nothing other than some form of
mandatory key recovery really does the job" of
preventing crime. Of course, Feinstein doesn't have a
clue. She talks about whether businesses would want "a
hard key or digital key or a key infrastructure." Yes,
folks, this is in fact meaningless blather.)

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center in Washington, DC, says, "Simply
stated, the Senate train is headed in the wrong
direction. But of course this doesn't answer the
question of what will ultimately be resolved by
Congress? There's a very popular measure in the House
right now that's heading in a different direction."

Rotenberg is talking about Rep. Bob Goodlatte's SAFE
bill, which is much more pro-business than S.909,
the McCain-Kerrey Senate bill that Kyl supports. Now,
S.909 doesn't mandate key recovery; it only strongly
encourages it by wielding the federal government's
purchasing power to jumpstart a key recovery
infrastructure.

But Kyl would go further. At a recent Heritage
Foundation roundtable on encryption, I asked him, "Why
not make key recovery technology mandatory -- after
all, terrorists, drug kingpins and other criminals
won't use it otherwise. Kyl's response? Not that it
would be a violation of Constitutional due process and
search and seizure protections or a bad idea. Instead,
he told me he simply didn't have enough votes...

-Declan






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Wed Sep  3 15:07:19 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:07:19 +0800
Subject: Crypto hearings via C-SPAN
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903145157.00897100@mail.io.com>




The Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism, and Government
Information held hearings this afternoon on encryption; audio is available
now at , I don't follow C-Span so I don't know how
long they'll make the recording available.

I haven't finished listening to the recording, but it so far has featured
Senator Leahy and Louis Freeh reminscing pleasantly about their
early-morning walks near Sen. Leahy's farm in rural Vermont, and Freeh
talking about how the situation prior to the enactment of Digital Telephony
looked bleak - but with the helpful intervention of Congress, a "balance"
was achieved between privacy and law enforcement which has made everyone
happy. Ahem.

Key escrow is being compared to airbags in cars; they're discussing forcing
crypto software authors to include key escrow in their software, and
allowing users to "choose" to use it or not. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Wed Sep  3 15:23:39 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:23:39 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903180515.00714940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:13 PM 9/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
>must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
>law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
>afternoon.

Yes, but  -  Freeh said all products needed to have the _option_ of a 
key-escrow backdoor built in. The actual deployment of the system 
should be at the users' discretion. Then again, Sen. Feinstein 
suggested he needed mandatory key escrow since there was no way to 
make a voluntary system work. Freeh seemed to warm to the idea of 
making key escrow mandatory.

"Mandatory key escrow would the best solution - I have to be candid 
with you on that," he said. 

Unfortunately, he added, mandatory key escrow isn't a possibility - 
or foolproof, either.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNA3e/EcByjT5n+LZAQGZEAgAoKI4lcelu7DFrA2hmpKIpdSo23oXVL0g
Wbr6v6hG/QFi8hehtU2kowZkBBT5Ztx5eTRjsEEnWebM5ck/xLkvKXAMIPyoU8Gy
YDKyKDWqBDp0pqe8sr5ZPMRpu0VZobcUrdcoTQBcZYDIrmFSnvhiEZy1gmfgKvac
Ys1BlsnfcofEj41voj0Uy+acAjdEEkm7UMqniOoF6/bLD2FmLSMXMm9aXdS+UoJy
PJS+Cyc9ZrELA/jCD7hiM+5iYTD18ZU9rrZTBnkyrQYzmNFt0Y3DfyFuc5GUhQ99
Z1YZRXXCWm6nPa1wWthskbd3X6Z4uUHwLm92F3yl29Q10+r98Wmh1g==
=sOfC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter at ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
   PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F







From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Wed Sep  3 15:27:07 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:27:07 +0800
Subject: Unlicensed net.psychotherapy
Message-ID: <199709032214.SAA26283@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>



   
[somewhat snipped from raw lynx dump]

   Daily Double Scoop Graphic
   Just enough Net news.
   
   By John Motavalli
   
   Is Psychotherapy On The Net Legal?
   
   HOW DOES ONE OFFER PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP ONLINE? Very cautiously.
   
   The issue of whether the practice of psychology or psychiatry online
   is legal still appears to be a bit unclear. Psychologists have to be
   licensed to practice in each state. If they're doing psychotherapy
   over the Internet, and they're offering therapy to people in states
   where they're not licensed, are they breaking the law?
   
   Sacramento psychologist Ronald L. Mann, Ph.D., has a [8]site, allowing
   a visitor to "e-mail a question (about anything from relationships to
   career changes)." This service costs you $20 a question. Dr. Mann, who
   is licensed in California only, said he's not breaking the law because
   he is not offering psychotherapy online.
   
   "Technically, psychotherapy is about exploring unconscious thoughts
   and feelings and making interpretations about these earlier memories,
   feelings, and linking them to present circumstances," Mann said. "I'm
   uncomfortable (professionally and personally) doing psychotherapy on
   the Internet. I think people need a personal face-to-face relationship
   that will provide emotional support when they get into intense
   powerful emotional material. I can't offer that through e-mail. What I
   can offer is good sound educational advice and point them in a good
   direction."
   
   Doug Fizel, deputy director of public affairs at the [9]American
   Psychological Association in Washington, D.C., said the question of
   the legality of online psychiatry is under study. "That really has not
   been worked out yet within the APA," he said. "It does really raise a
   lot of good questions, as to whether someone in California can legally
   offer therapy to someone in New York. You also have to ask whether
   someone can truly enter into a genuine therapeutic relationship
   online."
   
   Mann noted a recent correspondence he had with a young man who has
   some personal problems. "He is in college, and he has very poor
   self-esteem. He's really anxious in his relationships with other
   people, he has trouble sustaining relationships. We talked (by e-mail)
   about what it takes to have comfortable relationships with other
   people, and early childhood issues."
   
   I said this sounded like psychotherapy. "I know it's not
   psychotherapy," Mann replied. "I could have said, 'Why don't we do
   this [a treatment process]. I didn't. I actually think psychotherapy
   wouldn't work very well via e-mail."
   
   Adds Fizel, "It's more a question of ethical practice -- the
   difference between law (which a state would determine) and ethical
   practice (determined by an organization like ours)." He concludes that
   "So far, the questions have been raised, but the answers haven't been
   found."
  
 
   8. http://www.ronmann.com/
   9. http://www.apa.org/






From rewards at t-1net.com  Thu Sep  4 06:54:11 1997
From: rewards at t-1net.com (rewards at t-1net.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: KEEP YOUR EYES ON YOUR MAILBOX ....
Message-ID: 


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From declan at well.com  Wed Sep  3 16:01:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:01:45 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970903180515.00714940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 




On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote:

> Yes, but  -  Freeh said all products needed to have the _option_ of a 
> key-escrow backdoor built in. The actual deployment of the system 
> should be at the users' discretion. Then again, Sen. Feinstein 
> suggested he needed mandatory key escrow since there was no way to 
> make a voluntary system work. Freeh seemed to warm to the idea of 
> making key escrow mandatory.

Will is right to say Feinstein was harping on mandatory key escrow the
entire time. I disagree, though, that Freeh "seemed to warm" to the idea;
it's been a wet dream of the FBI for the longest time. Towards the end of
his testimony he was perhaps less guarded in his calls for it, that's all.

As for the backdoor, Freeh was vague on what that would mean. At one point
he said it could be done in a mandatory or voluntary manner as long as it
got done. At another he talked about mandating it but giving users the
option to turn it off -- but then what's the use of mandating it? I've
attached some excerpts from the transcript below that might be helpful.

> Unfortunately, he added, mandatory key escrow isn't a possibility - 
> or foolproof, either.

I didn't catch him saying mandatory k.e. isn't a possibility, but he did
admit it wasn't foolproof. Check out the transcript.

-Declan

---

[Louis Freeh is talking]

Here we're not saying the key recovery standard X, Y, Z.  We're telling
the manufacturers that they need to have a feature that would allow
immediate decryption, and they can do that in the cheapest, most efficient
way that they can design.  And I think they can do that fairly easily.

[...]

There are a number of ways that that could be
implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
is a feature implemented and designed by the
manufacturers of the products and services here that
will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
decryption of the communications in transit or the
stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
But the key is that we would have the ability, once we
have the court order in hand, to get that information
and get it real-time without waiting for what it would
take for a supercomputer to give us, which is too long
for life or safety reasons.

[...]

Mandatory key recovery, to the extent that
it was implemented, would be the best law enforcement
solution.  I would not be candid with you if I told
you anything other than that.

[...]

I think we can design a system short of mandatory key
recovery which will work certainly better than no
system at all.  And I think the precepts of 909 and
some additions which could be added thereto will give
law enforcement at least a fighting chance, which is
really what we're asking for in this context, to keep
a technique which is very valuable. I don't think
we'll ever solve the problem 100 percent.  There are
loopholes now.  There will be loopholes even with a
mandatory key recovery system.  What we want to try to
do is design an infrastructure which will give us as
many access points for that court order as possible. 
And that's the end game that we're involved in right
now.







From cpunks at www.video-collage.com  Wed Sep  3 17:22:57 1997
From: cpunks at www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:22:57 +0800
Subject: Stay issued; modified stay to follow (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709040014.UAA19099@www.video-collage.com>



----- Forwarded message from Bob Kohn -----

>From cpunks  Fri Aug 29 04:41:12 1997
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970829010600.038952dc at mail.pgp.com>
X-Sender: kohn at mail.pgp.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 b3 (32)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:06:00 -0700
To: Cindy Cohn 
From: Bob Kohn 
Subject: Re: Stay issued; modified stay to follow
Cc: sadams at forbes.com, telstar at wired.com, plotnikoff at aol.com,
        Ewasserman at sjmercury.com, dang at cnet.com, steven at echo.net,
        abate at ccnet.com, wendyg at cix.compulink.co.uk, amy at netcom.com,
        courtm at cnet.com, alan.boyle at MSNBC.COM, declan at well.com,
        sep at cbsnews.com, kenc at cwi.emap.com, arb at well.com, exp at mk.ibek.com,
        bransten at interactive.wsj.com, TomBemis at pacbell.net,
        sam.perry at reuters.com, jimevans at aol.com, ljflynn at aol.com,
        wendyl at ljx.com, bernstein-announce at toad.com
In-Reply-To: <199708290123.SAA24903 at gw.quake.net>
Reply-To: Bob Kohn 
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[text/enriched is unsupported, treating like TEXT/PLAIN]

Too bad.  Prof. Bernstein was perfectly positioned to become a great -- and the only legal -- exporting reseller of PGP software.  (no, this is not off the record)


Bob



At 06:21 PM 8/28/97 -0700, Cindy Cohn wrote:

>During a conference call with counsel today, Judge Patel issued a stay of

>the injunctive relief issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, effective

>until September 8. 

>

> On September 8 (or sooner if we get the papers to her) the Court she will

>issue a formal Stay Pending Appeal which will stay the injunctive relief

>issued in her Opinion of August 25, 1997, except that an injunction shall be

>reinstated to prevent the prosecution of Professor Bernstein for the

>"unlicensed export" of Snuffle 5.0 (which includes Snuffle and Unsnuffle)

>and any later versions of that program which he has developed.

>

>This eliminates, at least for the meantime, the injunctive relief granted to

>Bernstein as to any other computer programs which he may have developed or

>otherwise wished to publish.  It also eliminates the protections for persons

>other than Professor Bernstein.

>

>The government has said that it may still challenge this more limited stay

>in the 9th Circuit.  Professor Bernstein may also seek relief from the stay

>from the 9th Circuit.

>

>Cindy

>************************ 

>Cindy A. Cohn                                                               

>McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.

>177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            

>San Mateo, CA  94402

>(415) 341-2585 (tel)

>(415)341-1395 (fax)

>Cindy at McGlashan.com

>http://www.McGlashan.com

>

>

>




Robert H. Kohn

Vice President, Business Development

PRETTY GOOD PRIVACY, INC.

2121 S. El Camino Real, 9th Floor

San Mateo, California 94403

Direct: (415) 524-6220

Cellular: (415) 297-6527

Main: (415) 572-0430

Fax: (415) 572-1932

kohn at pgp.com

PGP Home Page: http://www.pgp.com

Personal Home page: http://www.kohnmusic.com/people/bkohn.html


"If all the personal computers in the world - ~260 million
computers - were put to work on a single PGP-encrypted message, it would
still take an estimated 12 million times the age of the universe, on
average, to break a single message."

 -- William Crowell, Deputy Director of the National Security Agency, 

	testifying before the U.S. Congress on March 20, 1997

----- End of forwarded message from Bob Kohn -----






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep  3 17:26:30 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:26:30 +0800
Subject: don't let export controls hinder coding (Re: Things we should be working on...)
In-Reply-To: <5uk1uc$jso$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <199709032347.AAA00901@server.test.net>




Ian Goldberg  writes:
> In article <199709022216.XAA00915 at server.test.net>,
> Adam Back   wrote:
> >I can't see that export controls are much of a big deal for freeware
> >cypherpunk software ... just publish it on a US site with whatever
> >access controls you fancy.  It'll make it's way out of the country in
> >a few minutes [...]
> >
> >It's not as if you're trying to sell it, or are a corporation worrying
> >about stepping on toes at NSA Inc. 
> >
> >Just release it in the US.  Lets someone else do the export.
> 
> I'm not primarily talking about _products_, here; I'm not selling stuff.
> I'm just trying to publish!  Part of my research (which focuses on computer
> security) involves (surprise) building secure systems or breaking insecure
> ones.  Where this involves cryptography or cryptanalysis, I am prohibited
> from publishing these systems on the Net, from my homepage (and I don't
> _want_ to put access control on my homepage).

Hmmm...  There are lots of crypto papers on the net.  Pick a US
cryptographer, his home page will be bristling with papers
(postscript, html whatever).

If you're talking about publishing code to go with your paper, well
publish the URL in your paper, and put the code at the URL.  There
seems to be a reasonable selection of code at the cypherpunks ftp site
@ berekely judging from the Italian mirror of it.

Some of _your_ code is on that site...

Adam
--

Have you exported RSA today?






From pk at dev.null  Wed Sep  3 17:38:01 1997
From: pk at dev.null (Psycho Killer)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:38:01 +0800
Subject: DC cypherpunk soccer team?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <340DC513.325@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> If you live in Washington, play soccer, and are a libertarian
> (anarcho-capitalists are also welcome), email me. The fall league is
> starting in two weeks.
> 
> The name of the team? "The Invisible Foot"

Declan,
  Please be advised that the "Psycho Killers" in Austin, Texas, have
already drafted Tim C. May. However, if we lose too many players in
trying to 'enforce' our 'right' to have him play for us, then we
may be open to trade negotiations.

Charles Whitman, KOTM







From tm at dev.null  Wed Sep  3 17:44:50 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:44:50 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <340DFD85.56C7@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
> must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
> law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
> afternoon.

  I must have not been given the proper ballots when I voted. I didn't
see the FBI or any other LEA on *my* ballot. If these people are going
to be running the country, and making the decisions as to what does and
does not constitute threats to the citizens and the country and the
world, shouldn't we have some say in who they are?

> Kyl opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose
> was to discuss crypto in a balanced manner, but that
> he wanted "to explore how encryption is affecting the
> way we deal with criminals, terrorists, and the
> security needs of business." 

  Yoo-hoo! Over here! Yoo-hoo! It's the CITIZENS! We still exist!

> Then he talked at length
> about "criminals and terrorists" using crypto, and
> child pornographers "using encryption to hide
> pornographic images of children that they transmit
> across the Internet."

  If we imprison more of our citizen-units than most dictatorships, then
who the fuck are we imprisoning?
  Are we *not* imprisoning criminals, terrorists and child pornographers
and other scum? What percentage of the population needs to consist of
LEA agents, and what percentage of the population must we imprison in
order to put away criminals, terrorists and child pornographers?
  50%?...80%...100%?

  > Kyl also stacked the three panels. Out of seven
> witnesses, five were current or former law enforcement
> agents. No privacy or civil liberties advocates
> testified.

  That's right. The correct answer is 71% LEA agents, and
100% of the citizens in prison.
  I hate to support this approach to law enforcement, but if the people
in charge of the safety of the nation and its citizens cannot prevent
criminals, terrorists and child pornographers from running rampant with
the mountains of laws and technology currently at their fingertips, then
I guess we'll just have to pass more laws and put all munitions and
privacy technology in the hands of the LEA's.

  Besides, the citizen-units will be 'happier' in prison, where they can
get the really *good* drugs and indulge in anal sex without fear of
imprisonment.

TruthMonger






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 17:46:10 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:46:10 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: 



Sometimes these guys can still surprise even me. That statement below is 
about as blatant as it gets:

[Freeh]
There are a number of ways that that could be
implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
is a feature implemented and designed by the
manufacturers of the products and services here that
will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
decryption of the communications in transit or the
stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
But the key is that we have the ability.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Let me get this straight: they need *as a minimum* instant access to all 
cleartext. So what is the "more than minimum" they truly desire?

And the two alternatives Freeh proposes to obtain this *minimum* are 
either "mandatory" or "involuntary". What a choice!

--Lucky






From dbmkts at kryan.com  Thu Sep  4 09:02:29 1997
From: dbmkts at kryan.com (Bassmkt)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: STRATEGIES FOR MARKETING ONLINE
Message-ID: <199709041919SAA5039@post.iosys.net>


Greetings,
I'm responding to your posting online and was wondering if you would like a free copy of my informative article " PROPER E-MAIL STRATEGIES FOR MARKETING ONLINE". 
Just e-mail me back and ask for a free copy.
Thank you,
Donald Bass






From tm at dev.null  Wed Sep  3 18:05:09 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:05:09 +0800
Subject: Death of Privacy / Was: Di Privacy, Die!
Message-ID: <340E0380.1052@dev.null>



>From the Not-ly News !Server:

[Mainstream, Terra] -- "Huh?" by Defcom McCull'em

  Mainstream Media sources today denied rumors of news stories from
real people, in the real world, finding their way into the bowels of
the mainstream press before being burped out to make way for more of
the same-old-same-old.
  Asked why the initial reports of eyewitnesses using words such as
"explosion" were quickly buried in favor of the word "crash," sources
replied, only one guy, somewhere in Canada, was awake at that hour, and
he will soon be dead, so we can't really confirm the existence of those
eyewitnesses, since no one wants to talk to them.
  Asked why initial accounts had "five" reporters being detained and
why a rumor concerning the accidental death of "two" reporters, suddenly
turned into "seven" reporters being detained, the sources would only 
comment, "These were only preliminary estimates, before we had a chance
to talk to our media prisoners and explain the severity of what they
would be facing if their stories were not 'politically correct'."

  Asked why statements by Fayed family members concerning their views
that Dodi and Diana were 'offed' by the monarchy in a bid to thwart
a gain in the political influence of sandnigger mobsters, mainstream
media sources said, "We saw no need to cover old ground which had been
dealt with on the Cypherpunks list, both before and after the event."
  Asked about the missing right wheel on the death vehicle, sources 
inferred that it was found on the stretcher that carried Diana to the
hospital, next to the magic bullet that killed Kennedy.

NotlyNewsMonger
"All the news that gets you killed."






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 18:23:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:23:00 +0800
Subject: DC cypherpunk soccer team?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 1:14 PM -0700 9/3/97, Psycho Killer wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>
>> If you live in Washington, play soccer, and are a libertarian
>> (anarcho-capitalists are also welcome), email me. The fall league is
>> starting in two weeks.
>>
>> The name of the team? "The Invisible Foot"
>
>Declan,
>  Please be advised that the "Psycho Killers" in Austin, Texas, have
>already drafted Tim C. May. However, if we lose too many players in
>trying to 'enforce' our 'right' to have him play for us, then we
>may be open to trade negotiations.
>
>Charles Whitman, KOTM

Charles, you are a towering figure in our pantheon!

But be advised that I don't play the form of soccer (football), known as
"Mayan football," where the losing team is sacrificed.

The variant I play, sometimes dubbed "May football," sacrifices the enemies
before the game starts and uses their heads. It's getting tough, though, as
women invade the D.C. work force...their long hair tends to get tangled up
and alter the direction the heads roll.

At least one bull dyke has mannishly short hair, though.

--Klaus!, goalee of Team May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From feanor at nym.alias.net  Wed Sep  3 18:29:15 1997
From: feanor at nym.alias.net (Feanor)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:29:15 +0800
Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
Message-ID: <19970904010624.28235.qmail@nym.alias.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sep 3, 17:07, Unicorn wrote:
} Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
> Hi Guys (F/M),
> 
> Just a quick question.
> 
> Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
> store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if

Well, given that PGP 5 has a functionality just for sending and recieving keys
with said keyservers... :-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNA3U0RkU7YRPCnEJAQGgRwH/fX99svPMi51o7NIJGwrC1k59QioStPsk
A9jjBb3MX7JMaYEWg9ubwhZMg3RPpa6ASSnvnRMxkVgG3sELIGR1Sg==
=xmXy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep  3 18:55:55 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:55:55 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>



Chip Mefford propelled us into the future by writing:

>Fairfax County, In the Peoples Republic of Virginia

It's Fairfax City, I think, which is an independent city wholly contained
in Fairfax County. At least they were the only ones with this shit deployed.

>Citizens in the PRV who have been travelling in Fairfax County will soon
>be recieving summons to come pay their dues to the monster in the form of
>traffic citations for running red lights issued by Big Brother.

This was discussed a while ago. Buy a license plate cover ("Just protecting my
plates against stones and vandalism, Officer!") that's virtually transparent
from head-on, but opaque beyond  a certain view angle. I think these things
exist -- look in Car & Driver or some such.

And if some peckerhead parks his SUV in your driveway to nail speeders, buy a
"radar detector tester" (maybe C&D, or an electronic-hobbyist's magazine) and
crank it up every now and again while he's trying to catch violators. Do it
from the safety of your house so you don't wind up with a nightstick up your
ass.



>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.

And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer 
bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to disable
the fucker.

Shit, they're trying to nail Marv Albert for consensual sodomy, which is also
a "crime" in the PRV, if they can't get him on the assault charges. So think twice before you and your SO get into acts of Hooverism down Virginia way.

N.








From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 19:57:15 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:57:15 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903193232.006e28e8@popd.netcruiser>



At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>And if some peckerhead parks his SUV in your driveway to nail speeders, buy a
>"radar detector tester" (maybe C&D, or an electronic-hobbyist's magazine) and
>crank it up every now and again while he's trying to catch violators. Do it
>from the safety of your house so you don't wind up with a nightstick up your
>ass.

Rigging your microwave so it will run with the door open works real good,
too.  Just remember to stand a safe distance behind it...

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



The death of the "People's Princess" is bringing calls for laws to
protect 'privacy'.
  Except that the laws being talked about are mostly about limiting
what people are allowed to do in public. Same-old, same-old.
  Laws are being discussed that deal with the 'licensing' and the
'regulation' of telephoto lenses and listening devices. Same-old,
same-old.

  The fact that Dodi and Diana's staged death took place in a country
with the most plentiful and restrictive laws concerning the public
movement and actions of the press, seems to be lost in the similarly
staged outrage against the private press.
  Does anyone doubt that whatever new laws are enacted will result in
the further herding of the press into mainstream feeding pens, ala
Whitehouse news conferences and military maneuvers? 

  Of equal importance to the effect on restrictions of public activity
that the staged murder of Diana and Dodi will have, is the restrictions
on the press, through threats of arrest and intimidation.
  Typical government-spook operation. Witnesses and evidence subjected
to detention and seizure. All 'news' of the event being coordinated by
goverenment/LEA shills who 'point' us towards 'those responsible' and
'at fault'--with a mainstream press providing us with the 'solutions'
to preventing the actions of free people resulting in similar tragedies
in the future.
  The message is clear--freedom leads to tragedy. If people run around
doing what they want to do in public, then there will be accidents and
tragedies. This must be prevented at all costs.

  Get real. The same monarchy spooks who released the Dianagate tapes
of Diana's private telephone conversations, in order to make her look
like a slut in order to make Prince Charles sluttery look less serious,
watch Diana twenty-four hours a day, are the same people who took
possession of the photographic evidence of the murder scene.
  Diana herself, in a public interview, spoke of the Dianagate tapes as
being just a small part of the monarchist conspiracy to tear her down
and nullify the threat she presented to the anal retentive structure of
the monarchy.
  Dodi's ex-fiancee plainly stated on TV that Diana would be alive today
if she had not taken up with Dodi. The Fayed family has made it clear
that they feel the deaths were the result of the monarchy not wanting
Diana's image and influence being connected to those outside the loop
of the monarchy.
  Think about it. The mother of the future King of England, getting
married to a rich, political mobster. [Translate~~a non-white who buys
parliamentary votes.] It's not going to happen.

  Ask yourself this--"What do the assassinated free-world figures all
have in common?"--John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy,
John Lennon, Princess Diana.
  Answer: "They are decent people, visionaries who used their power
and influence to fight for the empowerment of the citizens, and against
the reign of a dictatorial secret government."
  Answer #2: "Once they were dead, everything they stood for became
subject to revisionist history by their murderers."

  The initial assault after Diana's death was on the free press, the
secondary assault (in reality, the main attack, the first only being
a diversionary maneuver) focuses on placing the 'blame' for Diana's
death with her stepping outside the loop of the anal-retentive monarchy
and hanging out with parliamentary vote-buying thugs who employ loud
mouthed drunk drivers.

  In the age of the ten-second sound-byte, giving the government spooks
two whole days to manipulate the press coverage before the private
citizens at the murder scene are allowed to speak, is a godsend.
  Once the paparrazi and the sandniggers have had the blame balanced on
their shoulders, the press is not about to backtrack and look for the
true story. Even job interview self-help books tell us that the first
two minutes set the tone and future impression of the whole process.
The governement FUD disseminators know that if they can have the first
say in any event, that those pursuing the truth have to play catch-up
from that point forward.

  Has anyone noticed that the 'news' surrounding this event has had
precious little coverage of the people actually involved in the whole
affair?
  The doctor who magically appeared on the scene and 'treated' Diana
isn't known about or accessible for a couple days. The police, firemen,
etc., are not interviewed, like they are in even the most extremely 
inconsequential of news story coverages.
  Get real--if a fucking cat gets rescued from a cocksucking tree, then
we get to see an interview with the hero at the scene. In the death of
a major public figure, the press doesn't bother to interview those at
the scene of the event? Right...
  The first eye-witness interview I saw was by someone who used the
word "explosion." That was the _last_ time I saw that interview. I saw
_one_ mention of the Fayed family saying the monarchy had murdered
Dodi and Diana. Never saw that again. Must not be news. Right...

  Notice that the press reports that the two little princes want to 
walk behind the casket. Is it a 'coincidence' that the two innocent
victims who are now under the thumb of the monarchist spin-doctors
are going to be front and center in the coverup of their mother's 
murder? 
  Why are the thousands of death threats against Prince Charles if he
tries to use the funeral to redeem his image *not* news?

  Why? Same-old, same-old.

TruthMonger






From pooh at efga.org  Wed Sep  3 20:10:16 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:10:16 +0800
Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
In-Reply-To: <19970903182604.17756@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970903224658.03486844@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 06:26 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>Are the current (mostly PGP 2.6.x based) keyservers able to incorporate,
>store and provide the new PGP  5.0 based DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys? And if
>not how can  one publish (the public  part of) such a  key using nothing
>more than email or a web-browser behind a firewall that does not allow a
>direct connection to a keyserver on port 11371?

Part of your answer is that the 2.6.x servers, once modified, will handle
5.0 keys.

We have a keyserver running at keys.efga.org that handles the 2.6.x and the
5.0 keys.  Right now I think we only support the PGP5.0 HTML based
interface that operates on port 11371.  I don't think we implemented web
based or email based key submission.  This would be trivial to add, we just
didn't do it.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From brianbr at together.net  Wed Sep  3 20:23:18 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:23:18 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>



On 9/3/97 8:30 PM, Lucky Green (shamrock at netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:

>[Freeh]
>There are a number of ways that that could be
>implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
>is a feature implemented and designed by the
>manufacturers of the products and services here that
>will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
>decryption of the communications in transit or the
>stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
>manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
>But the key is that we have the ability.
>-

 ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they 
plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to 
walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which 
needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and 
find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "In effect, to follow, not to force the public inclination; to give a
   direction, a form, a technical dress, and a specific sanction, to the
   general sense of the community, is the true end of legislature." 
       -- Edmund Burke







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 20:23:28 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:23:28 +0800
Subject: Militias
Message-ID: 




I just watched an hour-long special on CBS, "The Birth of a Militia," about
the Rocky Mountain Militia is southern Utah.

On nearly every issue I felt the militia members were right. Personally, I
don't share their animosity toward Jews and blacks, but their beliefs are
theirs to practice as they wish (including fighting laws which force them
to mix with other races, as with laws which force them to hire those they
have no desire to hire).

I got so angry at their persecution that I felt like going out target
shooting at my favorite range (open late at night). But since I went out
shooting just this afternoon, I guess I'll stay home and rant.

The militia member who was arrested, tried, and convicted of illegally
owning a gun, evading the police, and driving without a license, apparently
committed no serious crimes, by my standards. He didn't rob, he didn't
rape, he didn't kill.

As the Sheriff was quoted several times as saying, he "mouthed off." And
apparently being a "skinhead" and a "militia member" is ipso facto proof of
criminality. The Sheriff said he planned to get Johnny.

Fuck them.  Political crimes. Just like Bell.

Maybe I will get in another hour of target practice tonight. The end times
are coming.

(BTW, the CBS piece left on this note: Johnny (didn't catch his last name)
is holed up this evening in his compound, refusing to report for
sentencing. The State Security Bureau, er, the Sheriff, says a shootout is
likely.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From brianbr at together.net  Wed Sep  3 20:39:26 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:39:26 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <199709040317.XAA32663@mx01.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

 So, looking at all this, what does it mean???? Are they going to have
an amnesty period when I can run down to my local firehouse and turn
in my PGP5 CDROM without risking going to jail? Will MIT turn over
logs of everyone who ever d/l-ed PGP2 and we have four weeks to turn
over every backup disk we ever made? If they do get this by us, and I
decide to use their silly-assed encryption, do I get a ten year all
expense paid vacation at the Allenwood Hilton if I send my bootlegged
PGP message inside their encryption?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNA4oP8dZgC62U/gIEQLkIQCgsEasNm3JxBrHz1djEo2BvO1jyikAnis8
fDdwE1GjXBOhOMRrNRxSs0XW
=Wz3y
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
        For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" -- Samuel Johnson
  "With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I
    beg to submit that it is the first." 
           -- Ambrose Bierce's commentary on Johnson's definition.







From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Wed Sep  3 20:52:10 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:52:10 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709040328.XAA03610@www.video-collage.com>



At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
...
>>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>
>And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer 
>bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to disable
>the fucker.
...
In Altus, it is illegal to sell spray paint to persons under the age of 18.
That makes two violations of their rights that I know of.
The curfue which was enacted a couple years ago being the first.
All because the local politicians are fully aware that they are too young to
vote.






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 20:55:04 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:55:04 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 6:43 PM -0700 9/3/97, Anonymous wrote:

>This was discussed a while ago. Buy a license plate cover ("Just protecting my
>plates against stones and vandalism, Officer!") that's virtually transparent
>from head-on, but opaque beyond  a certain view angle. I think these things
>exist -- look in Car & Driver or some such.

By the way, the last time I was driving around the Greater Washington
National Compound, there were signs in Virginia declaring that use of radar
detectors was illegal.

This sort of banning of certain technologies which "hinder law enforcement"
is of course what we were talking about a few weeks ago, with the "for law
enforcment use only" trends in the PRA.

The State Parks and Recreation cops I was shooting next to today were
wearing body armor...it looked like Second Chance Class III stuff. These
vests are no longer sold to civilians. (I don't know if this a "voluntary"
action by the body armor makers, or is codified in some obscure law. I know
that there are periodic calls to outlaw ownership of such things by
civilians, including certain types of bullets, certain types of detectors,
etc. These rangers were sharing the range, so to speak, and gave me some
long looks when I entered carrying an assault rifle case and went over to
my lane. By the way, in case anyone is wondering what State Parks and
Recreation rangers were doing at a target range, they were carrying .40 S&W
semiautos...looked like mostly SIGs. Here in the Santa Cruz Mountains, the
rangers are essentially narcs and often run into marijuana fields hidden up
in the forests.

I didn't  mention to them my felon status.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 21:27:56 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:27:56 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <199709040317.XAA32663@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: 



At 8:17 PM -0700 9/3/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:

> So, looking at all this, what does it mean???? Are they going to have
>an amnesty period when I can run down to my local firehouse and turn
>in my PGP5 CDROM without risking going to jail? Will MIT turn over
>logs of everyone who ever d/l-ed PGP2 and we have four weeks to turn
>over every backup disk we ever made? If they do get this by us, and I
>decide to use their silly-assed encryption, do I get a ten year all
>expense paid vacation at the Allenwood Hilton if I send my bootlegged
>PGP message inside their encryption?

As I understand what Freeh said, not even he is talking about banning
existing programs. Rather, he's talking about requiring the "capability" be
added to Internet programs (presumably browsers, mail programs, etc.). It's
obvious that one could use an old word processor, editor, PGP, etc., and
then paste the text into the Freeh-approved Internet program. What would
the status be of this?

(In other words, it would be a truly draconian move to try to ban all
encrypted messages.)

But I think we should accelerate the use of steganography.

(Oh, and for the bozos who've said I just "talk," while they write code,
check the ancient archives of sci.crypt, circa 1989, and see that I
reported on using the LSBs of GIF images and DAT tapes to hide bits. I
didn't find earlier messages in sci.crypt reporting on this idea, but it's
quite possible that I was not the first to think of this. I don't claim a
scientific discovery! I reported my experiments over the next couple of
years, and Romana Machado credited me in her "Stego" program, circa '93. Of
course, by the time Peter Wayner wrote his little book, "Disappearing
Writing," or somesuch, all of the "inventors" of this LSB approach to
crypto were others, and they did their work several years after my
sci.crypt posts. I guess I didn't shout out enough. Or Peter didn't do much
research.)

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 21:57:48 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:57:48 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040328.XAA03610@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:28 PM -0700 9/3/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>...
>>>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>>>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>>
>>And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer
>>bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to disable
>>the fucker.
>...
>In Altus, it is illegal to sell spray paint to persons under the age of 18.
>That makes two violations of their rights that I know of.
>The curfue which was enacted a couple years ago being the first.
>All because the local politicians are fully aware that they are too young to
>vote.

In my community, it is even illegal to buy spray paints and give them or
make them available to those under some age (18 or 21...I don't know).

I like my solution a lot better: anyone can buy the fucking spray paint,
but taggers are shot down by those whose property they're trespassing on.

Seems consistent with personal freedom and responsibility.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Sep  3 21:58:34 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:58:34 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <199709040317.XAA32663@mx01.together.net>
Message-ID: <199709040356.WAA10181@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709040317.XAA32663 at mx01.together.net>, on 09/03/97 
   at 11:17 PM, "Brian B. Riley"  said:

> So, looking at all this, what does it mean???? Are they going to have an
>amnesty period when I can run down to my local firehouse and turn in my
>PGP5 CDROM without risking going to jail? Will MIT turn over logs of
>everyone who ever d/l-ed PGP2 and we have four weeks to turn over every
>backup disk we ever made? If they do get this by us, and I decide to use
>their silly-assed encryption, do I get a ten year all expense paid
>vacation at the Allenwood Hilton if I send my bootlegged PGP message
>inside their encryption?

Well Freeh and the rest of his Gestapo are more than welcome to come and
pick-up all the crypto software I have solong as the are willing to
collect the several cases of lead I have also. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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wYo585nBJtCV3QXNrOPNQEhuU2dZtuqyTjJH2ysFdbYxw5cq1tRG8aNXWzBDTiJp
GYg7ChK5qB0VK3iT3IhThog1n/fEyEwRf3cdJYcEMv0NgO35jmFH6lkcqhqSknPH
b7h3j30JIsI=
=XFwC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 21:58:57 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:58:57 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls(fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: 



At 8:08 PM -0700 9/3/97, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>On 9/3/97 8:30 PM, Lucky Green (shamrock at netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:
>
>>[Freeh]
>>There are a number of ways that that could be
>>implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
>>is a feature implemented and designed by the
>>manufacturers of the products and services here that
>>will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
>>decryption of the communications in transit or the
>>stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
>>manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
>>But the key is that we have the ability.
>>-
>
> ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they
>plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to
>walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which
>needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and
>find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.

I urge extreme caution on pushing this 4th/5th/etc. angle about "due
process" and "search and seizure" and legal niceties. If Freeh's proposal
is passed, I'm sure the _trappings_ of due process and warrants and
whatnot, or at least a magistrate's signature, will be implemented.  Judges
will be found, maybe even special "Surveillance Courts," as with the FISUR
process. Building a case against Freeh's proposal on this basis is weak.

A much stronger basis for stopping the Freeh nonsense is to strongly assert
the First Amendment.  Dictating the form that speech must take--escrow--is
unconstitutional.

Even the weaker form of Freeh's suggestion, that key escrow capabilities be
forced into all Internet products, even if the use is "voluntary," seems to
lack constitutional support. Could the Federal Trade Commission force all
products to have such features? The Consumer Safety Products Commission?

I don't know where the authority for mandatory seat belts and  air bags is
claimed to come from, either. Or helmet laws in various states. Someone
else is welcome to spend time researching this. Personally, all such laws
are infringements on personal freedom, in my view. I half expect a case
will be made that key escrow is a "safety" feature. Freeh's invocation of
air bags may have been a clever signal.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From geeman at best.com  Wed Sep  3 22:08:47 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:08:47 +0800
Subject: [PGP-USERS] Crypto-logic US$1 million Challenge
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970903213525.006c9764@best.com>



There was a Snake-oil FAQ floating around for quite a while that addressed
all this
in some detail.

This scheme/scam has circulated before, too although I forget the name of
the perpetrating company.

At 02:40 PM 9/3/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <97090316550827/0002595870PK5EM at mcimail.com>, on 09/03/97 
>   at 11:55 AM, Jeffrey Gold <0002595870 at MCIMAIL.COM> said:
>
>>Although it's not PGP, I thought this might be of interest.
>>I've condensed a Wall Street Journal Article with info from
>>the web page http://www.ultimateprivacy.com
>
>>  A start-up company is offering a $1 million challenge. Crypto-
>>Logic Corp. of Austin, Texas, claims to have created an encryption 
>>system for electronic mail so foolproof that it can't be broken.  If
>>someone can  figure out a special encrypted e-mail message  within a
>>year, the company says it will pay a reward of $1 million.
>
>>  Cryptologists agree that the decades-old encryption method   that
>>Crypto-Logic is claiming to use -- called a "one-time pad" -- 
>>is theoretically unbreakable. Each "pad" has a set of uniquely 
>>random digital symbols that are coded to the actual message. 
>>The recipient uses the same symbols to decrypt the message. 
>>The pads are used only once.
>
>>  Of course, the problem with any one-time pad is the distribution
>>of multiple pads.  A new one is needed for each message.  Public-key
>>cryptography (used by PGP) addresses this issue.  It is not clear
>>how Crypto-Logic Corp. addresses the distribution issue.
>
>
>ROTFLMAO!!!!!
>
>What a sweet little scam they have going here. :)
>
>While there product cost $99, which is not unreasonable for a security
product of this nature, they charge $49 for the "OTP's" (I'll get to the
OTP's later)!!!
>
>Now they way they have this set-up is that for each person that you are
communicating with requires a separate "OTP". The program comes with 2
"OTP's" and additional "OTP's" can be purchased for $49. So say you have 10
people you wish to communicate with you are talking almost $500 out the
gate to get going!!! This is just silly.
>
>
>Now to "OTP's". These are the things that snake-oil salesmen's dreams are
made of. Here is how their sales pitch works (and i have seen many of them
over the years):
>
>
>1) OTP's are unbreakable
>2) We use an OTP
>3) Our program is unbreakable
>4) You should use our program
>
>I will address all three points of their sales pitch and show the flaws in
it.
>
>1) OTP's are unbreakable:
>
>  To understand how one can make this claim (and it is true) on needs to
understand what a OTP is and how it works.
>
>A OPT (One Time Pad) is just a file of random numbers. That's it, nothing
fancy here. To encrypt a message one takes the bits in the plaintext and an
equal amount of bits from the OTP and XOR them together. The result is just
another random file of bits. To get the plaintext back one takes the
"encrypted" files and Xor's it with the same bits used the first time.
>
>Quite simple but there is a catch:
>
>  Your OTP must but TRULY RANDOM!! If there are any patterns in your
"random" data you are dead in the water. The biggest flaw in products that
claim to use OTP's is they use what is called a PRNG (pseudo random number
generator). Unfortunately the data that PRNG's produce are not sufficiently
"random" for use in OTP's. It has long been accepted in the field of
cryptology that you *MUST* use a real world sample for random data, things
like measuring the time intervals between click on a Geiger counter
measuring background radiation.
>
>A second catch:
>
>  You must never, never reuse any of the bits from your OTP!!! As simple
as this seems (after all this is why they call it an One Time Pad) there
are programmers out there that fail to grasp this basic concept. Now AFAIK
there is no pad reuse with this program. That's where their revenue stream
is comming from charging you for the new pads!
>
>So if you use truly random data (no PRNG's) and you never reuse bits then
an OTP encrypted message is provably unbreakable.
>
>
>2) We use OTP's
>
>I have seen numerous claims by various "snake-oil" salesmen that their
program uses an OTP only too see that they are using a PRNG to generate
their "OTP". I even had one claim that it was ok to reuse his PRNG
generated pad.
>
>Now since the company provided no details on how they generate the OTP's
who knows what they are doing.
>
>3) Our program is unbreakable
>
>Well if they are dotting all their I's and crossing all their T's when it
comes to generating and using OTP's then yes the message is unbreakable.
>
>But wait their program does not generate the OTP's you must buy them from
the company!! This means that a 3rd party outside of you and the person you
are communicating with has a copy of the pad!!! This is a big no-no in
cryptology. Anyone who has access to the OTP can decrypt any message that
was encrypted using it. What type of security do they have on site? Who has
access to the OTP's?? How are they generated?? What are their policies if
the government requests access to these OTP's?? All questions left
unanswered by the company.
>
>I must say that I seriously question the on-site security of the OTP's
considering how the initial OTP's are sent to the customer, (drum roll
please), the just MAIL them!!!!
>
>This brings us to the third catch to using OTP's: How to exchange the pads.
>
>Before the advent of Public Key Encryption this was the most daunting task
in cryptology. How do you get the keys to the people who need them to
decrypt the message??? With OTP's or any form of cryptology where the same
key is used to encrypt and decrypt the message the user must find a
"secure" channel for exchanging the keys. This is no different than a key
to a house or a car, the same key is used to lock and unlock the door.
Anyone who has a copy of the key can unlock the door. Need less to say you
don't just send the key in the mail. Usually such exchanges are done in
person or if this is not practical a "trusted" courier is used to exchange
the key. Not very practical for every day use.
>
>
>4) You should use our program
>
>Consider the following:
>
>- -- Unknown methods used for generation Otp's
>- -- Customer unable to generate their own OTP's
>- -- Unknown "on-site" security
>- -- Otp's escrowed by company (they have a copy of your keys)
>- -- Additional cost for each new key
>- -- Obvious lack of security in mailing initial Otp's to customers
>- -- No solution to the key exchange problem
>- -- No source code for program
>
>I would not use this program nor would I recommend it to anyone else.
There are may other programs that provide overall better security than what
this program ever can or ever will provide.
>
>I will CC: the Cyberpunks & Coderpunks list as there may be others there
who can better expand on this issue.
>
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
            
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
>
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>=yDMp
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Sep  3 22:15:49 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:15:49 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903220104.006f2348@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 05:19 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>Hi Guys (F/M),
>
>I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
>by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
>or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?

I predict that entire image file will be available for ftp within 48 hours
of release of the CDROM.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  3 22:53:12 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:12 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>
Message-ID: 



At 10:01 PM -0700 9/3/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 05:19 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>>Hi Guys (F/M),
>>
>>I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
>>by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
>>or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?
>
>I predict that entire image file will be available for ftp within 48 hours
>of release of the CDROM.
>

Since when does it take 48 hours for a FedEx delivery to Europe?

(Not to mention a direct transmissio, except there the chances of detection
are actually greater.)


(Hey, maybe someone could _print out_ the crypto code in the CD-ROM, then
export the print out, then recruit a team in Europe to pretend to OCR it,
and so on. Then they could announce that the text had been "converted from
text back to bits" and all the legal mumbo jumbo will be copacetic. The OCR
charade is a pretty good legal defense.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep  3 23:00:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:00:04 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
Message-ID: <199709040540.HAA09266@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> Even the weaker form of Freeh's suggestion, that key escrow capabilities be
> forced into all Internet products, even if the use is "voluntary," seems to
> lack constitutional support. Could the Federal Trade Commission force all
> products to have such features? The Consumer Safety Products Commission?
> 
> I don't know where the authority for mandatory seat belts and  air bags is
> claimed to come from, either. Or helmet laws in various states. 

  The 'authority' comes, as always, from power and money.
  The "Drive 55" mandate is a perfect example of the government stealing
the citizen's money, then giving it back in the form of highway funding,
with the condition that those states who don't give up their right to
decide their own state laws don't get any cash.
  The greedy fucks feeding at the government troughs want to get their
hands on that money _now_, because there is no telling who will be ahead
of them in at the trough by the time the Constitutional issues are
settled.

  The bottom line is that the federal government gets their authority by
virtue of armed robbery, bribery and illegal seizure.
  Who is going to stop them? They have the guns! When our elected
officials
in Congress delved into the INSLAW affair, the Department of Justice
told
them to "Fuck off." and refused to cooperate with those who represent
the
citizens. Congress's reaction was to say, "Yup. They're defying us."
  Ipso facto--Congress is not running the country. The LEA's are running
the country. Go figure...

TruthMonger # -23A(Sub.C)-009






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep  3 23:13:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:13:32 +0800
Subject: Militias
Message-ID: <199709040549.HAA09983@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> I just watched an hour-long special on CBS, "The Birth of a Militia," about
> the Rocky Mountain Militia is southern Utah.
> The militia member who was arrested, tried, and convicted of illegally
> owning a gun, evading the police, and driving without a license, apparently
> committed no serious crimes, by my standards. He didn't rob, he didn't
> rape, he didn't kill.
> 
> As the Sheriff was quoted several times as saying, he "mouthed off." And
> apparently being a "skinhead" and a "militia member" is ipso facto proof of
> criminality. The Sheriff said he planned to get Johnny.

  I watched the show and couldn't figure out exactly what the 'crimes'
were supposed to consist of. I eventually got the impression that the
real 'crime' was "intent to have a bad attitude."
  My basic read is that they are going to fuck with those they don't
like until their sense of human dignity forces them to make a stand,
and then they will murder them and use the event as more evidence of
our need to be protected from 'unauthorized' nuts with guns.

  I don't know about you, but I would much rather get murdered by an
'authorized' nut with a gun, than an 'unauthorized' nut with a gun.
It seems so much more civilized, somehow.
  When militia members leave for their meetings, do their mothers
remind them to put on clean underwear, in case they get murdered by
law enforcement agents? This is what cypherpunks enquiring minds
really want to know.

TruthMonger






From blancw at cnw.com  Wed Sep  3 23:53:48 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:53:48 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970903234934.006df9e4@cnw.com>



Tim May wrote:

>A much stronger basis for stopping the Freeh nonsense is to strongly assert
>the First Amendment.  Dictating the form that speech must take--escrow--is
>unconstitutional.
.......................................................

One would think that Freeh, Denning, et al, would know these things
already.  Or that one of their legal advisors would remind them of it.   

I also noticed in the news on TV tonight that there are Clinton &
Supporters, Inc. proposals being prepared for ensuring that stores actually
do require purchasers of cigarrettes to display an ID, so that minors are
prevented from smoking.   This is also contrary to the principles of being
left alone, but who among our protectors is watching over the boundary
lines, fighting back the infidels?   

Who cares about the Constitution any more?






From cag1465 at onestopshop.net  Thu Sep  4 15:15:26 1997
From: cag1465 at onestopshop.net (cag1465 at onestopshop.net)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:15:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Accept Major Credit Cards...Online Merchant Accounts!
Message-ID: <199709042215.PAA24984@cygnus.com>


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From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 00:30:00 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:30:00 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903222635.007669e4@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 11:08 PM 9/3/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
> ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they 
>plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to 
>walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which 
>needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and 
>find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.

Finding a judge to sign an order to decrypt the email of a suspected child
pornographer/drug dealer will take all of 30 minutes. I don't think a 30
minute delay will be of any consequence to the government's agenda. Not to
mention that Freeh lied to Congress when he claimed that they would always
use a court order. Even today, court orders are not always required for
wiretaps. This will be no different for future "mandatory" or "involuntary"
GAK.

[BTW, does anybody here have any idea why Freeh might stated that he
preferred "mandatory" GAK over "involutary" GAK? Just curious...]

Back to monkeywrenching,

--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 00:30:12 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:30:12 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903223516.0076b344@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 08:54 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I don't know where the authority for mandatory seat belts and  air bags is
>claimed to come from, either. Or helmet laws in various states. Someone
>else is welcome to spend time researching this. Personally, all such laws
>are infringements on personal freedom, in my view. I half expect a case
>will be made that key escrow is a "safety" feature. Freeh's invocation of
>air bags may have been a clever signal.

I noticed that strange air bag analogy myself. Clearly, Freeh and his
puppet masters are trying to skew the discussion towards "public safety".
Of course, requiring GAK is more like requiring a remote kill switch in the
ignition of all new cars so cops can just type a license plate number into
their terminal to halt a fleeing car. [BTW, such kill switches will be
required before long. I trust we all know this].

Frankly, I don't care if they outlaw crypto. We'll just glue stego on top
of it. And Joe Sixpack couldn't care less. Nor do I care if Joe Sixpack
wants to be spanked by his wife or plungered by his government. It's his
choice.




--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 00:30:19 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:30:19 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709040143.DAA17878@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970903221748.0076891c@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 08:32 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>By the way, the last time I was driving around the Greater Washington
>National Compound, there were signs in Virginia declaring that use of radar
>detectors was illegal.
>
>This sort of banning of certain technologies which "hinder law enforcement"
>is of course what we were talking about a few weeks ago, with the "for law
>enforcment use only" trends in the PRA.

I read in this morning's paper that in the wake of Diana's death, bills are
being proposed to require licensing for the use of high powered telescopic
lenses such as those used by celebrity photographers. Ignoring for a moment
that such an act would make physical confrontation with said photographers
even more likely, I note the similarity in language used to describe camera
lenses to language used to describe certain firearms. Soon we will hear
about the dangers of "assault lenses". The sheeple will eat it up.

As somebody once said on this list:
"The First Amendment was never meant to protect assault language or verbal
rape"...

BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.

The People desire a master, not a revolution.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From vznuri at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 00:48:30 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:48:30 +0800
Subject: on the social taboo/stigma
Message-ID: <199709040733.AAA16333@netcom12.netcom.com>




consider the recent events surrounding cigarettes. various laws
were passed for many decades that made them more difficult to 
obtain and sell. regulations increased. yet they have not
seen major effects in sales until relatively recently in history.
why is this?

because of the social taboo and stigma associated with them. 
this taboo and stigma only recently arose. and its efficacy
is attested to by the figures on the sales of cigarettes, which
have gone down considerably in the US. (yes I am aware of what
is happening in foreign markets-- please stay with me for a minute).
we have tobacco executives virtually being put on trial. their shame
is palpable.

what I would like to try to draw to your attention here to something
very powerful. it is the social taboo or stigma, and in some ways
it is the only long-lasting, enduring landmark of social 
consciousness. laws may come and go. people may obey or 
not follow laws. what is the
difference? I think it is clear that it is not taboo to break
some laws in the public's mind. (prohibition is one example).

laws can be viewed as an attempt to create a social taboo or
stigma via legislation. it is effective for the most part. but
it can be unreasonable and public opinion can diverge from the
laws.

what is the cpunk relevance? well, I am trying to point out that
taboos and stigmas are very powerful weapons. a government may
have physical weapons, but not use them because of international 
stigma. the reaction of other countries might be so great that
the "benefits" (a horrific term in this case) are not worth the
loss of accommodations given by other countries, which would
be retracted.

social stigmas/tabboos are very important in gauging the psyche
of a public. you can psychoanalyze the public at large by
determining what they consider taboo or stigmas. mass social
movements represent shifts in taboos and stigmas. consider
the sexual revolution for example. in some ways, the taboo
or stigma in a person's psyche are the root measure of their
behavior, not laws. if someone perceives there is no
taboo or stigma ("not getting caught" is related to this) there
is no deterrent.

===

here's the application. if cpunks wish to achieve certain goals,
one way is to try to create stigmas and taboos where none previously
existed, or tear down those that already exist that are obstacles
to the cpunk agenda. so, for example, a "stigma" about exporting
unapproved cryptography could be turned into a badge of honor. likewise,
we could create a "stigma" about working in the NSA.

this is the main them I want to nail in this letter.
many people are in jobs that some may consider ethically reprehensible.
they believe they have no choice. consider the tens of thousands
of very intelligent people (some of the most intelligent on the 
planet) that are *right*now* creating horrendous weapons of 
destruction in the name of "defense". they know in their hearts
that these weapons are stretching the concept of defense to the
"indefensible" so to speak. that is, they could only have 
offensive (in all senses of the word) applications.

moreover, even if they have defensive capabilities, they have
absolutely no way of ensuring their government would not misapply
them. anyone who thinks otherwise is pathetically naive. there
were famous scientists who developed the atom bomb who had
major turns of thought after they saw how it was applied. but
does anybody listen today? I encourage anyone working on their
ingenious defense research to get the slightest historical
clue about atom bomb development. how smart do you really think
you are, if what you are developing can be misused, and you
are merely a pawn in a big machine?

I am writing this letter to all those people who are *right*now*
channeling their own human energies into sinister applications. 
you might be working for the NSA. you might be working in the
defense industry. whereever, whatever. you have pangs of conscience
that you don't want to face. you can go a whole lifetime not
thinking about it. your superiors and everything in your environment
encourages you *not* to *think* about it. 

I am asking you to *think* about it. I am asking you to realize
that governments cannot go in the direction that they are not
supported. if tomorrow everyone who worked in the NSA said, 
"I am fed up, I don't have to take this job, they can intimidate
me but this is a free country, I have skills that are valuable
channelled elsewhere and not in constricting freedoms"-- the NSA would be
dead. you don't need laws or to create revolutions or governments
to get social change. in fact revolutions are typically intrinsically 
beyond laws, and new governments arise only when society's thoughts
change.

everything, *everything* that cpunks rail against is being held
up by other *people*. these people are not evil, they merely
think differently. many of them react to mass social pressure
and stigma. can the public successfully create new, effective
stigmas that pressure government to reform? it appears to me this
is already happening. I suggest we focuse not on laws or institutions,
but on the people holding them up, and their beliefs.

I suspect there are people such as I am alluding to on the cypherpunk list.
I think there are a lot of very talented programmers, for example,
working on applications of highly questionable moral value (such
as weapons of mass destruction). does anyone have any idea how
much tax money goes into so-called "defense" projects? what evils
have been perpetrated under the guise of "national security"?

I believe that the value of the cpunk list is that it has successfully
created some new taboos and stigmas (associated with spooks), 
and removed others (such as criticism of the government, etc.)

I think that we need to create some new stigmas and nail them 
down emphatically. such as, 
"know that what you are working on is going toward
a greater good" (i.e. a stigma or taboo associated with the
lack of this), not "keep your mouth shut and don't ask any
questions". consider a programmer union that had recommendations
to its members such as these. "I will not work on code that
can be misused for violence. I will not work on code that
does not have adequate safeguards against its use" etc.
do you know what all your friends and neighbors are doing?
can we make it so that its really *uncool* to be supporting
rotten institutions via one's labor, instead of having some
kind of warped charisma associated with being a "rocket scientist"?

to borrow an ominous phrase, I call on the oppressed workers of 
the world to unite. I call on you to discover your own power 
and conscience. I call on you to have a philosophy 
that you have thought out, and
to adhere to it. consider what you are applying *your* energy
to. and consider the possibility that even though you think you
have no choice, that is the lie that keeps you as a secure  
brick in the wall of oppression. all the rotten structures of
power would collapse in an instant if those who held them up
stopped doing so.

if nobody will work on his software, Big Brother cannot exist.







From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 01:20:38 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:20:38 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export  ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970903234934.006df9e4@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904010043.007359c0@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 11:51 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>I also noticed in the news on TV tonight that there are Clinton &
>Supporters, Inc. proposals being prepared for ensuring that stores actually
>do require purchasers of cigarrettes to display an ID, so that minors are
>prevented from smoking.   This is also contrary to the principles of being
>left alone, but who among our protectors is watching over the boundary
>lines, fighting back the infidels?   

As signs in any liquor store have been informing tobacco customers for
months, new FDA regulations require stores to check the ID of any tobacco
customer under 25. This despite the fact that you are legally allowed to
purchase tobacco products at age 18. If the store fails to check the ID of
a person legally permitted to conduct the purchase but is under age 25, the
store faces hefty fines.

This is of course just another extension of the "requiring ID for
everything" long-term goal of the government. Tim recently nicely recapped
some of the transponder implant issues our society will soon face. "No
transponder, no shoes, no shirt, no service".

[To our international readers: many stores in the US have signs by their
door that read "No shoes, no shirt, no service"].


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep  4 01:39:34 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:39:34 +0800
Subject: Smoking and IDs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970904013123.006e0204@cnw.com>



Lucky Green wrote:

>As signs in any liquor store have been informing tobacco customers for
>months, new FDA regulations require stores to check the ID of any tobacco
>customer under 25. This despite the fact that you are legally allowed to
>purchase tobacco products at age 18. If the store fails to check the ID of
>a person legally permitted to conduct the purchase but is under age 25, the
>store faces hefty fines.
........................................................

Thanks for providing more details on this, Lucky, I overlooked the fact
that not everyone on the list will understand the situation was referring
to.   Another odd thing:    I was talking to the clerk at a convenience
store about the ID sign next to the register, and she said that on the
other hand, there aren't any such requirements for the purchase of any of
the cigars which were on display on the counter.

Another odd thing is how popular cigars have become lately.  Last month I
bought a copy of "Cigar Aficionado" magazine to peruse, even though I don't
smoke, because it was so pretty :>) and spent quite some time looking at
their web site.   It is a curious matter that when one "vice" is squelched,
another grows in its place.   This magazine really emphasizes living "the
good life", and I discovered that there are places springing up all over
the U.S. (and I expect elsewhere) which are smoking clubs - people can
actually go there just to smoke their cigar, perhaps with a glass of
after-dinner liquor.    I thought this was a great idea, myself, because
here these people can be with others who enjoy the same activity, and
there's no one outside who can complain (not yet, anyway). 

I think sometimes it is not only a Truth, but a great & useful Means to an
End, that "living well is the best revenge".

Not sure how this will apply to transponder implants, though.   A subject
for late-night speculation.






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 01:46:05 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:46:05 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970903220104.006f2348@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904013353.0076a3d8@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 10:48 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Since when does it take 48 hours for a FedEx delivery to Europe?

Actually, some recent FedEx packages I sent to Europe took about that long.
Add   to that the overhead of going to the mailbox and putting it up for
ftp and 48 hours is cutting it pretty close.

>(Not to mention a direct transmissio, except there the chances of detection
>are actually greater.)

That depends. Some printed matter I sent to Europe not too long ago arrived
with a tag stating that diversion to certain countries would be in
violation of US export laws. I am not 100% certain, but I do not recall
that tag being on the box when it was shipped from the mailbox place. Which
suggests that somebody along the way opened the package and inspected its
contents.  When asking FedEx about this, the clerk assured me that it was
routine for US customs to inspect outgoing packages. The clerk seemed quite
confused that I was unaware of this fact.

I strongly suspect that if some Cyphercriminals were to aid in exporting
the information contained on that CDROM, they would use electronic means. I
may be wrong.

OK, I'll offer a prize: $10 in Ecash to the person that best predicts the
time it will take to export the entire contents of the Dr. Dobbs crypto CD.
The time span of interest is the average of the time during which the first
three US purchasers stating they received the CD and the time its contents
are received by a European or Asian crypto archive as determined by its
curator. If no US purchasers provide me with the time at which they
received their CD, I will use the time at which I received my CD. I am the
final judge of the contest.

Entries go to me, not to the list.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep  4 01:57:45 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:57:45 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709040837.KAA23572@basement.replay.com>



Lucky Green wrote:
 
> I read in this morning's paper that in the wake of Diana's death, bills are
> being proposed to require licensing for the use of high powered telescopic
> lenses such as those used by celebrity photographers. Ignoring for a moment
> that such an act would make physical confrontation with said photographers
> even more likely, I note the similarity in language used to describe camera
> lenses to language used to describe certain firearms. Soon we will hear
> about the dangers of "assault lenses". The sheeple will eat it up.

  For some reason this made me think of the thread containing light-bulb
jokes, and some warped wit saying,
  "Sure, light bulb jokes are funny, until someone burns a retina..."

  Though I laughed my ass off, at the time, have things really begun to
deteriorate so rapidly that I am justified in now wondering if there
will be a "Light Bulb Joke Amendment" to the "Telescopic Lens
Registration"
legislation?

TruthMonger






From dl at dev.null  Thu Sep  4 02:59:14 1997
From: dl at dev.null (Dead Lucky)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:59:14 +0800
Subject: We have a WINNER!!!
Message-ID: <340E82AD.3723@dev.null>



Dead Lucky
                           ----------
                       AP Lotto Enterprises
           (A Subdivision of the Reformatory Party of Canada)

                        Unlucky in Life?
                     Try your luck at Death!
  If you can correctly predict the date and time of death of others
 then you can win large prizes payable in untaxable, untraceable eca$h.
                                  ----------

Congratulations to the anonymous entity who correctly predicted the date 
of the death of Princess Diana.
	QEII - Come on down!
Just send us the confirmation number you received at the time of your
entry, along with instructions for forwarding your ecaSh prize.

http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP/AP.htm
Remember: "You can't win if someone doesn't pay."

NOTICE: We regret that we cannot take any more bets on the death of
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   Alberta, who won this month's free AP T-shirt with his suggestion 
   that there should be a bonus prize for anyone who correctly predicts
   the date of death of any politician whose body is found with a note
   attached which says,
   "I think Congress/Parliament needs each of us to send ten copies of
    this back to them."






From Michael.Johnson at mejl.com  Thu Sep  4 04:06:30 1997
From: Michael.Johnson at mejl.com (Mike)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:06:30 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: <19970903171900.47376@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904125232.00997d60@localhost>



Lucky Green wrote:
>At 05:19 PM 9/3/97 +0200, Unicorn wrote:
>>I am seeing messages about the Dr.Dobbs Crypto CD-ROM not being received
>>by persons inside the US, but right  now I wonder if this information is
>>or will  be available,  in this  form, outside of  the US?
>
>I predict that entire image file will be available for ftp within 48 hours
>of release of the CDROM.

For anonymous ftp? You know, it's copyrighted stuff we're talking about. I
would expect it to appear on the pirate CD market before you see it on any
public ftp servers.


Mike.






From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Sep  4 05:28:08 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:28:08 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Freeh did not mention banning existing programs. He did, however, talk
about restricting what was distributed, sold, and imported.

Even so, it only takes one intrepid staffer to add a word to the bill that
would include an "or possessed" clause in it. A "per se" rule against
crypto!

-Declan


On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> As I understand what Freeh said, not even he is talking about banning
> existing programs. Rather, he's talking about requiring the "capability" be
> added to Internet programs (presumably browsers, mail programs, etc.). It's
> obvious that one could use an old word processor, editor, PGP, etc., and
> then paste the text into the Freeh-approved Internet program. What would
> the status be of this?
> 
> (In other words, it would be a truly draconian move to try to ban all
> encrypted messages.)






From Jim at Famailcrt.com  Thu Sep  4 20:43:32 1997
From: Jim at Famailcrt.com (Jim at Famailcrt.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FREE LINK LISTING
Message-ID: <199709050342.XAA19131@marconi.concentric.net>


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From brianbr at together.net  Thu Sep  4 05:53:51 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:53:51 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709041247.IAA03206@mx02.together.net>



On 9/4/97 12:51 AM, Tim May (tcmay at got.net)  passed this wisdom:

>At 8:28 PM -0700 9/3/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>>At 03:43 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>>...
>>>>With this wonderful sucess, We can all look forward to this items being
>>>>placed in our domiciles in order to further protect us from crime.
>>>
>>>And I'll give my kids a can of spray paint and a ladder. Maybe I'll offer
>>>bonus prizes if they can figure out an inventive, undetectable way to 
disable
>>>the fucker.
>>...
>>In Altus, it is illegal to sell spray paint to persons under the age of 18.
>>That makes two violations of their rights that I know of.
>>The curfue which was enacted a couple years ago being the first.
>>All because the local politicians are fully aware that they are too young to
>>vote.
>
>In my community, it is even illegal to buy spray paints and give them or
>make them available to those under some age (18 or 21...I don't know).
>
>I like my solution a lot better: anyone can buy the fucking spray paint,
>but taggers are shot down by those whose property they're trespassing on.
>
>Seems consistent with personal freedom and responsibility.

 I don't know if the law is still on the books, but when I was an 
undergrad at Univ of Penn in the 60's you could not buy a water 
pistol/squirtgun of any kind, because there had been some incidents where 
people were squirted in the face with ammonia bu a couple of miscreants, 
so the city council took it upon themselves to 'protect' us all!


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
      For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets!"







From brianbr at together.net  Thu Sep  4 05:59:57 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:59:57 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709041247.IAA03203@mx02.together.net>



On 9/4/97 1:17 AM, Lucky Green (shamrock at netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:

>BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
>the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
>who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
>can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.

 .. among other things, I teach school. Mostly one on one tutoring and 
occasional Calculus or Physics fill-in ... (nice when you already have a 
pension to be able to work leisurely and play with your computer!) I am 
in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 
years since I read it and now ... it surely seems to be right on the path 
mentioned above and then some ... William Lederer also had it right years 
ago when he penned "A Nation of Sheep"


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 "...Those of you who turned your swords into plowshares will soon
  find yourselves under the yokes of those of us who kept our swords..." 
      -- author unknown







From amp at pobox.com  Thu Sep  4 06:59:43 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:59:43 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709040308.XAA30508@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: 



> 
> I noticed that strange air bag analogy myself. Clearly, Freeh and his
> puppet masters are trying to skew the discussion towards "public safety".
> Of course, requiring GAK is more like requiring a remote kill switch in 
the
> ignition of all new cars so cops can just type a license plate number 
into
> their terminal to halt a fleeing car. [BTW, such kill switches will be
> required before long. I trust we all know this].

Already implemented actually. All modern automobiles have a rather 
respectable amount of computing power that is vulnerable to directed radio 
frequency weapons, whose effect to microelectronics is similar to an 
electromatic pulse. =This= is what is driving the push to get older 
vehicles off the road, not environmentalist's arguments about 'global 
warming'.

> Frankly, I don't care if they outlaw crypto. We'll just glue stego on top
> of it. And Joe Sixpack couldn't care less. Nor do I care if Joe Sixpack
> wants to be spanked by his wife or plungered by his government. It's his
> choice.


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/04/97
Time: 08:43:59
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: 



Lucky, 

I think your observation below is an excellent illustration of why support 
or opposition to GAK must be a binary decision. Either you are for free 
speech, or you are not. There is no middle ground because middle ground 
will not satisfy a feral government. They will eventually demand full, 
immediate access to cleartext of all encrypted message, regardless of any 
public statements meant to appease opposition to incrementalist steps, 
because without it, they essentially have nothing. 

It is worth noting that when you look behind the curtain, you see a feral 
government that does not believe you have the right to private thoughts.



> Sometimes these guys can still surprise even me. That statement below is 
> about as blatant as it gets:
> 
> [Freeh]
> There are a number of ways that that could be
> implemented, but what we believe we need as a minimum
> is a feature implemented and designed by the
> manufacturers of the products and services here that
> will allow law enforcement to have an immediate lawful
> decryption of the communications in transit or the
> stored data.  That could be done in a mandatory
> manner.  It could be done in an involuntary manner.
> But the key is that we have the ability.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Let me get this straight: they need *as a minimum* instant access to all 
> cleartext. So what is the "more than minimum" they truly desire?
> 
> And the two alternatives Freeh proposes to obtain this *minimum* are 
> either "mandatory" or "involuntary". What a choice!
> 
> --Lucky
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/04/97
Time: 08:33:41
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: 



The article says:

   September 4, 1997
   Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
   By JERI CLAUSING

   WASHINGTON -- As Congress returns from its summer break this week, it
   faces a host of legislative initiatives that could shape the future of
   online privacy, commerce and jurisdiction.

   Topping the agenda is encryption, an issue that has pitted President
   Clinton and his top crime fighters against virtually everybody else.

I think that's basically right. Who else (besides perhaps local and state
"crime fighters," the spooks, and some key escrow-happy businesses) 
supports this policy?

-Declan


On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
> administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
> hyperbole. What's your take on that?
> 
>   http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm
> 
> 






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Sep  4 07:03:37 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:03:37 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970904132738.0071dd00@pop.pipeline.com>



The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
hyperbole. What's your take on that?

  http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep  4 07:05:38 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:05:38 +0800
Subject: U.S. Prison Labor
Message-ID: 



Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?

Thanx






From stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com  Thu Sep  4 07:06:27 1997
From: stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com (stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:06:27 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Interesting. In NJ, where I have had the misfortune of living, "being able
to face your accuser" means that if the cop doesn't show you have to
reschedule and keep rescheduling until he _does_ show. For this reason, I
had assumed that the "no cop, no case" clause was simply hopeful urban
legend.

I tend to be cynical, here in NJ, where I have to pass through a police
roadblock every day on my way to work, and a different one every evening.
Literally. Every day. In less than a mile of State Route 73, if that ever
helps anyone.

If nothing else, we live in a "traffic police state".

-stonedog


On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Nate Sammons wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:
> > Nate wrote;
> > 
> > Isn't there a wierd clause about being able to face your accuser??? Yeah, I
> > know, I live in a fantasy world.
> > 
> > luv
> > chipper
> > 
> 
> Yes... in CO you can take them to court, and if the cop doesn't show up, you
> get off free.  I dunno about VA (just moved here 2 months ago).
> 
> In CO, you're supposed to be able to ask the cop if you can see the radar
> gun that clocked you, and if it's been cleared or the cop won't show it to
> you, you cannot be ticketed.  By law, the cop *must* have a visual estimate
> of your speed, and a clocked speed on a gun of some kind (a friend of mine is
> a Sheriff in southern CO), but they apparently don't tell that to anyone.
> 
> -nate
> 






From E.J.Koops at kub.nl  Thu Sep  4 07:10:48 1997
From: E.J.Koops at kub.nl (Bert-Jaap Koops)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:10:48 +0800
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <698B8E62567@frw3.kub.nl>



I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
-update on Australia (Walsh recommendations), Denmark (report by Expert
Committee), France (decree deemed imminent), Sweden (Inspection for strategic 
goods), US (Bernstein decision, Junger amended complaint) 
-change on Singapore (unclear availability domestic crypto) 
-URL added to Sweden (export law)
-FAQ added 
-lay-out restyled 

Besides, I have added to my homepage pages on my research 
(crypto & crime) and on key recovery and PKIs. I've also added a 
collection of links on these areas. See:
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/research.htm

Comments are as always welcomed.

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bert-Jaap Koops                         tel     +31 13 466 8101
Center for Law, Administration and      facs    +31 13 466 8149
Informatization, Tilburg University     e-mail  E.J.Koops at kub.nl
                  --------------------------------------------------
Postbus 90153    |  This world's just mad enough to have been made  |
5000 LE Tilburg  |    by the Being his beings into being prayed.    |
The Netherlands  |                (Howard Nemerov)                  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
         http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/bertjaap.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From amp at pobox.com  Thu Sep  4 07:27:21 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:27:21 +0800
Subject: We have a WINNER!!!
In-Reply-To: <340E82AD.3723@dev.null>
Message-ID: 





------------------------
  From: Dead Lucky 

  Subject: We have a WINNER!!! 
  Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 03:43:09 -0600 
  To: cypherpunks at toad.com


> Dead Lucky
>                            ----------
>                        AP Lotto Enterprises
>            (A Subdivision of the Reformatory Party of Canada)
> 
>                         Unlucky in Life?
>                      Try your luck at Death!
>   If you can correctly predict the date and time of death of others
>  then you can win large prizes payable in untaxable, untraceable eca$h.
>                                   ----------

too good. saved for those clueful enough to understand the real humor of 
the post.

excellent spoof DL whoever you are.

My question, which is moderately relavant to the list, is exactly where one 
can obtain "untaxable, untraceable eca$h" From what I understand, we don't 
quite have that yet. Maybe I missed something.



---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/04/97
Time: 09:04:15
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: 



That Subject: line should have been, of course, that airbags and crypto
controls both hurt the public. --Declan






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep  4 08:06:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:06:45 +0800
Subject: Comparing encryption to airbags: both hurt the public
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Comparing encryption to airbags: both hurt the public



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:48:53 -0400
From: Julie DeFalco 
To: declan at well.com
Subject: Airbags

Actually, the similarity between airbags and encryption is a good
comparison.  The public will be hurt by encryption controls, just as the
public has been hurt by airbags.

A few facts: Airbags were promoted by Joan Claybrook in the 1970s and 1980s
as a wonderful technology which worked for everybody from large males to
little children.  She claimed that they would save thousands and thousands
of lives each year, and that they would work for unbelted occupants.
Claybrook even pressured the manufacturers to use the technologies which she
now condemns today (don't get me started on Claybrook's mendacity on the
airbag issue.  She is a flat-out liar).

Well, while airbags have indeed saved some people who otherwise would have
died, they have not worked nearly as well as promised.  They specifically
hurt the weakest people in our society -- small children, short women, and
the elderly. They add about six hundred dollars to the price of new cars,
which encourages poorer people to keep older, possibly less safe cars
longer.  Now Claybrook even claims that airbags would work better if people
weren't "out of position" -- i.e. if they were wearing seatbelts, even
though the entire point of airbags was to provide "passive restraints"
because people didn't wear seatbelts.

Encryption controls will, like airbags, be far more dangerous to the public
than currently promoted.  And once given the power, it will be pretty
difficult, if not impossible, to take it away from government agencies.
Even with airbags documented as killing people, the government won't let us
have the choice whether to have them in the car at all.  The biggest
concession the government will make is allowing car companies to include an
on-off switch. This is why CEI will soon publish directions on our website
on how to dismantle your own airbags (well, as soon as we square away the
legal stuff).

Ciao! Julie
________________________________

Julie DeFalco
Policy Analyst
Competitive Enterprise Institute
1001 Connecticut Ave., NW
Suite 1250
Washington, DC 20036
(202) 331-1010
Fax: (202) 331-0640
http://www.cei.org








From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Thu Sep  4 08:13:05 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:13:05 +0800
Subject: NEWS: Re: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709041503.LAA23136@www.video-collage.com>



At 10:17 PM 9/3/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
...
>BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
>the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
>who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
>can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.
>
>The People desire a master, not a revolution.
...
Excerpt from the not so distant future.
The FBI, NSA, and all local fire departments merged today in an unexpected
congressional action.  This merger was supported highly by the good populus
of our great nation as it makes it easier for the authorities to keep tabs
on those thinkers that keep stirring the people up.  Various professors were
unavailable for comment.
Said one congressman.  "We needed this merger and throwing in the fire
departments seemed a good idea since everyone knows that all buildings are
now fireproofed.  We feel that the firemen's experience with containing the
blazes will do well for creating controlled fires with which to destroy
contraband.  It is also noted that the water trucks that they use can
readily be converted to carry kerosine.
First on the list to be destroyed is every copy of the constitution, which
has caused too much grief of late.  Everyone has a 14 day leneniency in
which to turn in their copies.  Please remember that all media is included
including, but not limited to, CD-ROM's with the terrible screed, pages in
encyclopedias with the infamous words, and handwritten copies.






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Thu Sep  4 08:24:36 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:24:36 +0800
Subject: Cars Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
Message-ID: <199709041514.LAA23851@www.video-collage.com>



At 08:43 AM 9/4/97 -0500, amp wrote:
>
>> 
>> I noticed that strange air bag analogy myself. Clearly, Freeh and his
>> puppet masters are trying to skew the discussion towards "public safety".
>> Of course, requiring GAK is more like requiring a remote kill switch in 
>the
>> ignition of all new cars so cops can just type a license plate number 
>into
>> their terminal to halt a fleeing car. [BTW, such kill switches will be
>> required before long. I trust we all know this].
>
>Already implemented actually. All modern automobiles have a rather 
>respectable amount of computing power that is vulnerable to directed radio 
>frequency weapons, whose effect to microelectronics is similar to an 
>electromatic pulse. =This= is what is driving the push to get older 
>vehicles off the road, not environmentalist's arguments about 'global 
>warming'.

Actually, the current trick is to launch a little rocket-powered cart with
some form of electronic measure under the fleeing car from behind.  It
fizzles the electronics pretty well on contact with the bottom of the
oilpan.  Anyone know if one of those protectors that you can get for your
oil pan would deflect this if it were mounted on rubber washers with teflon
screws?






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep  4 08:27:30 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:27:30 +0800
Subject: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970904132738.0071dd00@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 6:43 AM -0700 9/4/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The article says:
>
>   September 4, 1997
>   Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
>   By JERI CLAUSING
>
>   WASHINGTON -- As Congress returns from its summer break this week, it
>   faces a host of legislative initiatives that could shape the future of
>   online privacy, commerce and jurisdiction.
>
>   Topping the agenda is encryption, an issue that has pitted President
>   Clinton and his top crime fighters against virtually everybody else.
>
>I think that's basically right. Who else (besides perhaps local and state
>"crime fighters," the spooks, and some key escrow-happy businesses)
>supports this policy?

Who supports this policy? All those who count in this democratic world:
NSA, FBI, NIST, DEA, FinCEN. BND, Mossad, GCHQ, DGSE, Annam, DIA, Chobetsu,
.....


We're in a state of war with these war criminals.

Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory (or
involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure. He is
marked for deletion.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep  4 08:28:11 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:28:11 +0800
Subject: Smoking and IDs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970904013123.006e0204@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904105958.03651d9c@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:32 AM 9/4/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:
>
>>As signs in any liquor store have been informing tobacco customers for
>>months, new FDA regulations require stores to check the ID of any tobacco
>>customer under 25. This despite the fact that you are legally allowed to

The FDA rules that took effect last February (since when did the FDA gain 
authority over 7-11?) say that anyone who "appears to be under 27 years of 
age" has to be carded.  

>>purchase tobacco products at age 18. If the store fails to check the ID of
>>a person legally permitted to conduct the purchase but is under age 25, the
>>store faces hefty fines.
>........................................................
>
>Another odd thing is how popular cigars have become lately.  Last month I
>bought a copy of "Cigar Aficionado" magazine to peruse, even though I don't
>smoke, because it was so pretty :>) and spent quite some time looking at
>their web site.   It is a curious matter that when one "vice" is squelched,
>another grows in its place.   This magazine really emphasizes living "the
>good life", and I discovered that there are places springing up all over
>the U.S. (and I expect elsewhere) which are smoking clubs - people can
>actually go there just to smoke their cigar, perhaps with a glass of
>after-dinner liquor.    I thought this was a great idea, myself, because
>here these people can be with others who enjoy the same activity, and
>there's no one outside who can complain (not yet, anyway). 

Cigars are not covered by the recent Tobacco Agreement either.  Nor are 
foreign or "boutique" cigarette brands.  Business opportunity?  

>I think sometimes it is not only a Truth, but a great & useful Means to an
>End, that "living well is the best revenge".

Even cigarette smoking is having a bit of a revival in movies and among the 
young.  After all, in a world which has abolished sin it is a genuine 
government-certified sin.

Evita Rodham Clinton wrote a column attacking Julia Roberts for smoking in 
"My Best Friend's Wedding."  When asked about the attack during a publicity 
appearance for "Conspiracy Theory,"  Mel Gibson defended his co-star by 
saying "I'll stop smoking when they stop lying."

DCF


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From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep  4 08:32:30 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:32:30 +0800
Subject: Di Privacy, Die / Was: Death of Privacy
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TruthMonger wrote:
>   Notice that the press reports that the two little princes want to 
> walk behind the casket. Is it a 'coincidence' that the two innocent
> victims who are now under the thumb of the monarchist spin-doctors
> are going to be front and center in the coverup of their mother's 
> murder? 
>   Why are the thousands of death threats against Prince Charles if he
> tries to use the funeral to redeem his image *not* news?

It seems likely that Something Is Afoot.  Let's not assume that it is
centered on preserving Charles Windsor's shot at the throne.

Most likely those Shadowy People who preserve social order have been
concerned about the stability of the Monarchy and are now taking steps
to preserve it.

A commonly perceived problem with monarchy is the strict rules of
inheritance.  From time to time a person totally unsuited to the job
pops up.  Not all societies in all of history have found this problem
insurmountable.  (Examples: The Man in the Iron Mask, or the peculiar
deaths of Queen Hatshepsut's older brothers, or the death of Peter the
Great's only son, etc.)

Diana, obviously, was unsuited to the job and did not seem to
understand it.  R.I.P.

Diana, for all the trouble she caused, did manage to arouse interest
in the Monarchy.  Her death has caused millions of people in Britain
and elsewhere to become deeply emotionally involved with the Monarchy.
This emotional capital is far better than the lassitude which preceded
her.  While many perceptions of the Royal Family are not positive,
this can be easily transformed into adulation of the Monarchy using
the vehicle of Diana's sons.

Charles is no prize.  He's managed to muff an easy job.  It is
possible that the Monarchy would not survive his accession to the
throne.

Look for the death of Charles, probably before the Queen dies.  An
accident would do it, but a "suicide" would add some spice, arouse
sympathy, and be less suspicious.  (Two fatal accidents would be
extremely unlikely, whereas the odds of a suicide under these
circumstances cannot be calculated.)  A "lone nut" with a gun would
also do the trick, although it's getting old.

This would pave the way for a smooth handoff of power from the well
regarded Queen to one of Diana's well regarded sons.  Order will have
been restored.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"

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=0xyT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep  4 08:32:43 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:32:43 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
> must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
> law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
> afternoon.

Encryption is an airbag for accidents of government.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"


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From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 08:32:47 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:32:47 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <199709041247.IAA03203@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904081607.00712e4c@popd.netcruiser>



At 08:47 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>On 9/4/97 1:17 AM, Lucky Green (shamrock at netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:
>
>>BTW, just for the record, I believe that we live in a consumer society and
>>the People choose the government they want. The average person doesn't care
>>who thinks for them as long as they don't have to think for themselves and
>>can pretend to themselves that it was in fact they who did the thinking.
>
> .. among other things, I teach school. Mostly one on one tutoring and 
>occasional Calculus or Physics fill-in ... (nice when you already have a 
>pension to be able to work leisurely and play with your computer!) I am 
>in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
>this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
>relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
>to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 
>years since I read it and now ... it surely seems to be right on the path 
>mentioned above and then some ... William Lederer also had it right years 
>ago when he penned "A Nation of Sheep"

For another good read, try "The Truth Machine", by James L. Halperin.  It's
about a guy who invents Big Brother (a machine that can with 100% accuracy,
detect whether you are lying).  It's kind of scary, because Big Brother (in
the book) brings an end to war, world government, and general Utopia.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Other PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199709041526.KAA22187@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970903222635.007669e4 at netcom10.netcom.com>, on 09/03/97 
   at 10:26 PM, Lucky Green  said:

>At 11:08 PM 9/3/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>> ... hmmmm,  immediate *lawful* decryption ... which implies that they 
>>plan to end run the Bill of Rights with some law that permits them to 
>>walk in and snoop on the spot ... right now to look at my mail which 
>>needs no key, just a teakettle, they at least have to stop somewhere and 
>>find a tame judge, which removes at least some of the immediacy.

>Finding a judge to sign an order to decrypt the email of a suspected
>child pornographer/drug dealer will take all of 30 minutes. I don't think
>a 30 minute delay will be of any consequence to the government's agenda.
>Not to mention that Freeh lied to Congress when he claimed that they
>would always use a court order. Even today, court orders are not always
>required for wiretaps. This will be no different for future "mandatory"
>or "involuntary" GAK.

>[BTW, does anybody here have any idea why Freeh might stated that he
>preferred "mandatory" GAK over "involutary" GAK? Just curious...]

Well I am not really worried about the "court approved" wiretaps as these
are only a small fraction of all surveillance currently being done by the
Government on it's citizens.

A much more worrisome issue is that of the FBI,CIA,NSA,et al having the
ability of driftnet fishing of communication. Once Big Brother takes an
interest in you its all over but the crying. Even if they can't get you on
what they want they will get you on something else. With current system we
are all felons under numerous laws (yes even you Kent) some are just less
aware of the fact than others.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep  4 09:26:48 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:26:48 +0800
Subject: Krispin Preaches Revolution!
In-Reply-To: <03534be19006e0aa4949847a944e6017@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904113742.0366812c@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:39 AM 8/29/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>I have known since I was a grasshopper that people trying to effect
>change have a vested interest in making current reality look bad. 
>People entrenched in the power structure, on the other hand, have a
>vested interest in making current reality look good.  
>
>When change doesn't happen, or especially when it goes in a direction
>undesired by the revolutionaries, but liked by the citizens, the
>effort to make current reality look bad intensifies.  When change
>irrevocably passes to an unwanted state, and the revolutionaries
>"lose", a residue of Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists (BOREs)
>results.  These toothless old tigers, clinging to their youthful
>dreams, rage at a reality that passed them by.  Snarling and
>perpetually misunderstood, they wither and waste away, Cheshire cat
>evil grimace postcripts to history. 

Course the analysis fails when faced with those who think things are good and 
getting better in revolutionary ways disliked by the "powers that be".

None of us have had time to become Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists yet.  
Tim and I am members of the same birth cohort.  He tends towards depression 
and I tend towards optimism but both of us have seen quite a few changes over 
the years and neither of us are in the position of the American Marxists of 
the 1930s or 1960s New Left radicals who saw their dreams die.

Market liberalism is ascendant.  And it is still in its early period of 
ascendancy.  The Economist observed earlier this year that "We are all 
liberals now".  Pointing out that illiberal philosophies had shuffled off the 
world stage.

Note that "socialism" started circa 1850, rose steadily until the middle of 
this century, and then crashed and burned.  "Red Tony" in the UK is showing 
himself to be slightly to the right of John Boy Major as the students, 
aliens, and pro-inflationists of the UK have recently discovered.

Market Earth continues to take names and kick ass worldwide.  I felt much 
more depressed about the possibilities of a society built on voluntary 
interaction 30, 20, or 10 years ago than I do now.

The fact is that change is continuing and accelerating because people have 
the means to change their own lives.  Since "revolution" which originates 
from the independent and unled actions of millions of people cannot easily be 
suppressed, traditional political analysis fails.

Conquering an "anarchy" is hard enough because of the lack of anyone to 
surrender.  Conquering an "anarchy" that is springing up all around you at 
the "speed of business" or in "net time" is even harder.  The only tactical 
option that would work for our rulers in the current political situation is 
to "nuke us back to the stone age" so that they could regain their 
traditional force ratios.

If the people are not deprived of the wealth and physical powers that they 
now possess (at least in the OECD countries), they are no longer controlled 
in a real sense.  Nominal controls exist but they are weak and ineffective.  
If you doubt this, ask any cop.

DCF

Needed:  A lion untamer.  The cage has been removed but the lion continues to 
pace back and forth over his old ground out of habit.  We need a lion untamer 
who can convince the lion that he's no longer in a cage.





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From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep  4 09:34:04 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:34:04 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>





> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
> intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
> boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
> traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
> kicking.

Yes, they love these in Germany too. Ways to combat:

1) Wax your license plate, especially the front one.

2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
(Ensure middle finger is extended.)

3) Wave a plunger in front of it at amazing speeds. Give the cops
tens of alternating shots of your extended finger and plungers.

4) Assault the machine with a plunger. (Only if really mad.)

-- FedPlunger








From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 09:36:42 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:36:42 +0800
Subject: Smoking and IDs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970904013123.006e0204@cnw.com>
Message-ID: 



At 1:32 AM -0700 9/4/97, Blanc wrote:
>Another odd thing is how popular cigars have become lately.  Last month I
>bought a copy of "Cigar Aficionado" magazine to peruse, even though I don't
>smoke, because it was so pretty :>) and spent quite some time looking at
>their web site.   It is a curious matter that when one "vice" is squelched,
>another grows in its place.   This magazine really emphasizes living "the
>good life", and I discovered that there are places springing up all over
>the U.S. (and I expect elsewhere) which are smoking clubs - people can
>actually go there just to smoke their cigar, perhaps with a glass of
>after-dinner liquor.    I thought this was a great idea, myself, because
>here these people can be with others who enjoy the same activity, and
>there's no one outside who can complain (not yet, anyway).

My interpretation is that many people are fed up with the anti-smoking
Nazis.  The most "in your face" form of smoking is cigars.  So they smoke
cigars.  The hard core smoke Cuban cigars.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From adam at homeport.org  Thu Sep  4 09:46:30 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:46:30 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970904132738.0071dd00@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709041621.MAA12307@homeport.org>



	Its a pretty aggressive claim.  There are plenty of law
enforcement types who want strong crypto, understanding that it stops
crime.  But when you say "top law enforcement advisors," sure.

	I don't know anyone outside of LE who wants a government
policy on this stuff anymore.

Adam 


John Young wrote:
| The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
| administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
| hyperbole. What's your take on that?
| 
|   http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep  4 10:09:41 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:09:41 +0800
Subject: Krispin Preaches Revolution!
In-Reply-To: <19970829093945.49609@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:37 AM -0700 9/4/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>None of us have had time to become Bitter Old Revolutionary Extremists yet.
>Tim and I am members of the same birth cohort.  He tends towards depression
>and I tend towards optimism but both of us have seen quite a few changes over

I prefer the term "pessimism" to "depression." The opposite of optimistic
is pessimistic, not depressed, which has a clinical sound to it.


>Conquering an "anarchy" is hard enough because of the lack of anyone to
>surrender.  Conquering an "anarchy" that is springing up all around you at
>the "speed of business" or in "net time" is even harder.  The only tactical
>option that would work for our rulers in the current political situation is
>to "nuke us back to the stone age" so that they could regain their
>traditional force ratios.

And this is what I think they may try: a global crackdown to try to stamp
out the wildfire of anarchocapitalism before it spreads beyond any hope of
control.

Our opponents understand full well the power of strong crypto and
unassailable privacy to facillitate this kind of anarchy and this kind of
voluntary, self-selected, virtual communities.

They understand, we understand, and even some in the media understand. The
politicians don't, for the most part.

Louis Freeh is no dummy. He understands the power struggle. But he has to
speak babytalk to Feinswine and Kyl to let them glimpse what the issues are.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep  4 10:22:48 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:22:48 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



At 9:03 AM -0700 9/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
>> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
>> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
>> intersections after the light has turned red. These CopBots are a great
>> boon to our prosperity and security as they free up the huminoid Cops from
>> traffic duties so that they can better spend their time toilet plunger
>> kicking.
>
>Yes, they love these in Germany too. Ways to combat:
>
>1) Wax your license plate, especially the front one.
>

Or smear mud on the plates. This is an old trick.

(We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
notions of scienter.)

By the way, a useful survival trick is to have a spare set of license
plates available.  It's not a crime to carry an old set around in one's
vehicle, only to actually use them (and be caught). Sometimes these can be
found at junkyards, sometimes old plates from other states don't have to be
turned in. And the unscrupulous can steal plates from other cars (or switch
them, though this has obvious problems if they are traceable to you!!).

Sure, these plates won't be "valid," and may not have current stickers (if
they're old). But if the cops are looking for your car, or even using
automated plate scanners on toll roads, bridges, etc., then having some old
plates from your Oregon car sure beats having the plates their computers
have flagged.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Sep  4 10:54:09 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:54:09 +0800
Subject: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970904173627.10237.qmail@zipcon.net>



Timothy C. May writes:

> Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory (or
> involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure. He is
> marked for deletion.

Dan Quayle was Bush's life insurance.  Who is Freeh's?

----- And now, cryptography fans, I am appending a message I posted at
least 8 times to the list yesterday, with nothing appearing except one
message with no body attached.  In case someone out there has actually
been getting all of them, I apologize in advance.

Subject: Cypherpunk Action Items

Timothy C. May writes:

 > OK, you asked. This isn't a comprehensive list.

 > 1. Fully secure machine to machine connections for the Net,
 > as in Gilmore's "SWAN" project. This makes the Net
 > unsnoopable by the NSA and other TLAs, and makes encryption
 > an automatic (at this level...individual users will of
 > course still encrypt on top of this, as relying on others
 > is never enough).

Sounds reasonable.  I presume we are talking about end-to-end
encryption being the default for connections, and not link
encryption over various hops of the Net here.

 > 2. A usable form of Chaum's cash, a la Goldberg's or
 > Schear's or Back's or whomever's implementation. An
 > evolution of Magic Money, Hashcash, etc., using full
 > strength algorithms. Backing can be decentralized. Less
 > emphasis on deals with banks, more emphasis on guerilla
 > deployment, a la PGP.

Nice, but who is going to be the first to back modular exponents
with actual money?  I recall this being a big stumbling block
back when Chaumiam Cash discussions appeared previously on the
list.  Something like NetCash (The agents.com flavor, not the
Netcash/Netcheque paper), although not very anonymous, is
infinitely more suited to micropayments and integration into
various transport protocols.

 > 3. Distributed, decentralized data bases, a la Eternity,
 > Blacknet, etc. My number one candidate: a commercial credit
 > rating data base not bound by the U.S.' "Fair Credit
 > Reporting Act." Let lenders and landlords find out the dirt
 > on those who welshed on loans or who skipped out on leases,
 > regardless of what the FCRA says. (This could technically be
 > located today in any non-U.S. country, practically, but
 > access by U.S. persons and corporations would have to be
 > done circumspectly. A good use for blinded cash, of the
 > _fully_ untraceable sort, e.g. payer- and payee-anonymous
 > sort.)

I'm still a fan of my "Network Cache Server" approach to
anonymous message pools and distributed data bases, even if only
to reduce spam and provide a completely reliable Usenet.

This then embeds into the Net three levels of communication, with
varying degrees of latency and reliability.

       UDP:  Alice says, "Here's some octets for Bob.  I hope
             they don't get lost in transit."

       TCP:  Alice and Bob are within sight of each other and
             toss octets back and forth, each replacing any the
             other fails to catch.

       NCS:  Alice says to her local cache service, "Here are
             some octets which expire in 10 minutes and a
             micropayment."  Alice gets a 256 bit receipt,
             which may be presented to any other cache server
             to retrieve Alice's octets in the next 10 minutes.

 > 4. Wider use of persisistent pseudonyms. Most of the
 > "anonymous" posts we see are signed in cleartext with names
 > like "TruthMonger," "BombMonger," etc., with little use of
 > PGP sigs to ensure persistence. Spoofing is trivial.
 > Checking sigs is up to the *end reader*, for example, to
 > see that "Pr0duct Cipher" really is the same nym that's in
 > the past posted as Pr0duct Cipher, but it might be useful
 > for us to start really making more use of this sig checking,
 > and even to maintain our own data base of nyms and their
 > public keys, as a kind of demonstration testbed.

This is really a user action item, not a Cyperpunks action item.
The techology to do this already exists.  Like most people, I
will start signing all my posts if I am spoofed in a believable
way, and enjoy the plausable deniability that comes with not
signing them if I am not.

 > What I meant be "the wrong stuff" is the recent focus on
 > breaking simple ciphers that were known to be breakable 20
 > years ago...just a matter of applying the computons in the
 > right way.

Correct.  This continuous brute-forcing of wider and wider keys
has ceased to entertain.  Unless someone comes up with a way to
make less computing power do more keys, I'm really not interested
in hearing about it.

Of course, the first such efforts served to show how distributed
efforts could be mounted on the Net, how much computing power you
could snarf for free, and other interesting things.  However, now
that these things are known, repeating the experiment every week
is not necessary.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}








From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Sep  4 11:12:22 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:12:22 +0800
Subject: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
Message-ID: <19970904175553.11355.qmail@zipcon.net>



Officer Volpe is back on the job, on modified duty minus his badge and
gun.  Apparently the union contract prohibits suspensions over 30 days in
length. 

Gee - you'd think someone like that would be in jail on multimillion
dollar bail as a "suspected sex offender."  If he is convicted, will laws
require him to register for life and notify his neighbors when he moves in
next door to them? 

I certainly wouldn't want this sadistic pervert with his fixation on
minority anuses living next door to me.  If he weren't a cop, they
probably would have searched his house immediately looking for evidence of
other crimes.  I'll bet Officer Volpe has a really unusual porn and dildo
collection.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}
 






From attila at hun.org  Thu Sep  4 11:22:12 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:22:12 +0800
Subject: Freeh's ScheiBeSturm
Message-ID: <199709041813.MAA11418@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the even more ominous (and ridiculous) demand which Freeh
    (apparently even more emboldened) is presenting:

        "...And Louis J. Freeh, the director of the FBI, raised
        the prospect of also requiring Internet service 
        providers to have keys to the data flowing over 
        their networks. "Law enforcement needs to have a 
        system for immediate decryption" when a judge 
        determines it is likely that crime is being or 
        is about to be committed, Freeh told the 
        Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and
        Government Information. "We should also look at     
        whether network service providers should have a 
        system for immediate decryption." ....

    this is nothing short of demanding _three_ key encryption,
    with the third key a _universal_ master key for the men who
    claim they wear the white hats, but tinker with the facts in
    their "crime" labs --whose crime?  "ours" or theirs?  Given
    the historical perspective on abuse of power by our federal
    government (and everybody else down their food chain), this
    is patently absurd --yet they WILL try for it.

    asking Congress to evaluate the technology of information
    exchange, let alone the nuances of encryption, is a waste 
    of effort in the shitstorm of Louis Freeh's inflammatory     
    predictions of the four horsemen.  There are not more than a
    handful who have the intelligence to do much other than collect
    bribes.

    why dont the bastards admit it?  all they really want is to wire
    our brains, implant an ID, and enable GPS on us.


 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From attila at hun.org  Thu Sep  4 11:50:03 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:50:03 +0800
Subject: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709041831.MAA12346@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970904:0808 
    Tim May  expostulated:
[snip on Declan...]

+We're in a state of war with these war criminals.

+Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory
+(or involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure.
+He is marked for deletion.

    Is not the word EXPUNGE what you mean?  
    suits my feelings, just fine.


 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
        --Christian Worley

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Sep  4 11:56:00 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:56:00 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



All this jizzing aside, on how long it will take to get there is useless
unless someone on the other side has an ftp server that can accept
incoming files of that size? :)  I'm sure there are plenty of ftp crypto
sites out there, but how many have incoming directories that will allow
upto 650mb?  Or the equivalent of P.O. boxes and such for snail mailing of
the CD's...

Also, IMHO, if you do live outside of the USA and download the CD, you
should make an anonymous donation of $100USD or whatever to Dr. Dobbs. 
The idea is to fuck with the ITARs, not to pirate Dr. Dobbs's stuff,
after all, they were nice enough to make the stuff available... :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Sep  4 12:24:25 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:24:25 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)

Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
for big IR lamps?

Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU  Thu Sep  4 12:57:41 1997
From: fabrice at math.Princeton.EDU (Fabrice Planchon)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:57:41 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <19970904154807.23567@math.princeton.edu>



On Thu, Sep 04, 1997 at 10:01:20AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> (We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
> recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
> driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
> usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
> challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
> me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
> the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
> notions of scienter.)

Photo radars are common in France, too. I was told by a cop friend that
no more than 20% of the photos are useable (that is, show clearly the
license plate for purpose of identification). And the law was modified a
couple of years ago, to answer the question you ask. If somebody is
driving your car, and you don't give his name, then you face the charges
(pay the ticket, and get the points...). The funny thing is, when they
started using photo radars, they were sending the photo with the
summons. Which, of course can be a problem, as if your wife opens it and
find the photo with you and and your mistress. This actually happened,
and the court ruled it was a violation of privacy. Now you have to go to
the police to see the photo. Needless to say, anything you would use to
cover your plates is outlawed...

                           F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep  4 13:27:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:27:25 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709042002.WAA29666@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:03 AM -0700 9/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >> Yes, rest assured that Big Brother is watching. Three CopBots have been
> >> deployed around the county to take pictures of vehicles exiting
> >> intersections after the light has turned red. 

> (We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
> recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
> driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
> usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
> challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
> me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
> the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
> notions of scienter.)

  Their is a pair of on-off ramps in the Bay area where they have the
PhotoCop Bots on both sides you can get nailed both ways if you circle
back and forth.
  I like to steal the plates off of a matching vehicle late at night
and spend an hour or so speeding back and forth between the exits, then
replacing the plates on the vehicle when I'm done.
(Hint: wear a cap and glasses with the big clown nose.)

  Not that I'm a troublemaker...

PlateMonger






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep  4 13:33:21 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:33:21 +0800
Subject: More metaphors: Key Recovery like "painting the windshield black?"
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904161226.006978cc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Marc Rotenberg had a compelling simile to counter Director Freeh's 
"airbag" statement on mandatory key recovery yesterday. Though some 
outlets saw the FBI position as a radical departure, this writer saw 
only more emphasis on themes from previous statements. This is from 
my story this AM.

- From :
http://www4.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwo/0904/inwo0003.html


"But Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Center, said 
the statement wasn't surprising. Indeed, documents obtained under the 
Freedom of Information Act and posted on the group's Web site for the 
past two years show that various parties within the White House have 
long favored mandatory controls. 'This is such old news that we had 
this on our Christmas cards two years ago,' Rotenberg said. 'We've 
known all along this was their goal. Louis Freeh says mandatory key 
escrow is like airbags? It's more like painting the windshield black. 
Happy driving, crypto users.'"

Denning had much to say against immediate imposition of mandatory 
controls, as well.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter at ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
   PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F







From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Sep  4 13:50:54 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:50:54 +0800
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks -- request for help
Message-ID: 



After yesterday's crypto-hearing, I decided I should write a story about
Stupid Senate Tricks -- how your elected representatives misspeak,
misstate, and misstep when it comes to technology. From the "What is PGP" 
question at a recent hearing to Feinstein's meaningless blather yesterday,
this is fertile ground. 

Do you have any favorite quotes? Not just crypto, but CDA, copyright, and
technology in general. Send 'em to declan at well.com.

thanks,

Declan







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep  4 14:39:41 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:39:41 +0800
Subject: Feinstein first...then Clinton..._then_ the lawyers!
Message-ID: <199709042123.XAA07756@basement.replay.com>




And while Clinton on July 1 took a very public stand for a tax-free, 
self-governed Internet,

In contrast to Clinton's support of proposals like the Internet Tax 
Freedom Act, which would prohibit states from taxing online commerce,

  Excuse me? Sounds like a 'State-tax'-free InterNet.
  The proposal to give the States money for welfare and let them decide
how to disperse it is the preliminary move toward dropping the funding
levels and let the States bear the burden of the fallout from the new
welfare 'reforms'. First you dump it in the lap of the States, then you
cut back funding, and you let the citizens cry out to D.C. for help,
at which time you take away even more of their rights in return for
"protecting" them from the evil States, or you turn them into slave
labor for big corporations, like you did with the people in your
prisons.
  Once the States are prohibited by law from taxing online commerce,
D.C. will suddenly discover the great "crisis" that will ensue when
the citizens find out how to dodge taxes, and the Feds will step
forward to "save the day" by announcing a Federal InterNet commerce
tax, promising to "share" it with the States. (Of course, the States
won't _get_ their share if they don't force their citizens to drive
55 mph and work 20 hours a week in the voluntary-mandatory Federal
Re-election Campaign Fund Work Camp.

During discussion of the Kerrey-McCain bill in July, Feinstein left 
before her constituents from the software industry in the Silicon 
Valley testified -- and after telling representatives of the FBI and 
the National Security Agency that she would defer to their expertise 
on what was a confusing issue. 

  I didn't see the FBI or the NSA on the election ballot. Did you?
  I ask you, "WHO THE FUCK IS RUNNING THIS COUNTRY?!?!?"

  Where does this Nazi CUNT get off telling the people who elected her
that she can't be bothered to make the effort to understand the issues
involved so she will let nameless, faceless government Law Enforcement
Agents make the decision as to what to do with the encryption plunger.

NEWS FLASH!!! --- THIS JUST IN...
  The pilot of a U.S. nuclear bomber left formation before receiving
her flight orders from the Pentagon--and after telling Tim C. May
and James Dalton Bell that she would defer to their expertise on
what was a confusing issue (where to drop the BIG ONE).
  President Clinton, when reached for comment, said, "Didn't we fire
that slut from Minot Air Force Base? And what the fuck is Paula Jones
doing up there with her? Say...what is that plane............"

In solidarity, we remain...
FineSwineFirstMonger
CintonNextMonger
ThenTheLawyersMonger
KentCrispinMonger 
Kent'sBossMonger
TheSpookReadingKentAndHisBoss'sPrivateEmailMonger
TheSpookReadingTheOtherSpooksEmailMonger
EtcEtcMonger






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Sep  4 14:44:23 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:44:23 +0800
Subject: Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM outside the US?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904142430.04533b20@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 02:40 PM 9/4/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>All this jizzing aside, on how long it will take to get there is useless
>unless someone on the other side has an ftp server that can accept
>incoming files of that size? :)  I'm sure there are plenty of ftp crypto
>sites out there, but how many have incoming directories that will allow
>upto 650mb?  Or the equivalent of P.O. boxes and such for snail mailing of
>the CD's...
>
>Also, IMHO, if you do live outside of the USA and download the CD, you
>should make an anonymous donation of $100USD or whatever to Dr. Dobbs. 
>The idea is to fuck with the ITARs, not to pirate Dr. Dobbs's stuff,
>after all, they were nice enough to make the stuff available... :)

Another recommendation is to subscribe.

Dr. Dobbs regularly publishes articles on encryption.  (There are a couple
of articles in this months issue, including an interview with Ron Rivest,
an article on the SSH protocol, and an article on the "block cipher square
algorythm".)  One of the few programming magazines I make sure to subscribe
to...

BTW, does anyone know of the strengths and weeknesses of the Square
algorythm published in the October Dr. Dobbs?

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From alano at teleport.com  Thu Sep  4 14:48:33 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:48:33 +0800
Subject: Political News from Wired News
Message-ID: <340F2A6A.4A4F@teleport.com>



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/6605.html

Senators Embrace Mandatory Data
                     Keys

                     by Wired News Staff 
                     12:03pm  4.Sep.97.PDT In a major advance for
                     hard-line proponents of giving the government wide
                     access to electronic data, several influential
                     senators have declared their support of mandatory
                     key recovery features for all encryption-enabled
                     software sold in the United States. 

                     At a Judiciary subcommittee meeting Wednesday,
                     Senator Dianne Feinstein was among those who
                     came out strongly in support of the position taken
                     by FBI Director Louis Freeh that mandatory key
                     recovery is essential to deterring crime. 

                     "Nothing other than some kind of mandatory key
                     recovery really does the job," the California
                     Democrat said at a hearing of the Senate Judiciary
                     Committee's technology, terrorism, and
                     government information subcommittee. "The
                     public-safety issue is a paramount one." 

                     The subcommittee's chairman, Senator Jon Kyl
                     (R-Arizona), added that he was "in complete
                     agreement." 

                     The Clinton White House, like past
                     administrations, have, along with major police and
                     spy agencies, been strong supporters of such
                     measures. But in Congress, sweeping measures
                     to give government agents an easy-open back
                     door to scrambled data have been met with strong
                     opposition and legislation that cuts in the
opposite
                     direction. 

                     Bills in both the House and Senate have sought to
                     exclude mandatory key recovery systems as a
                     requirement not only for US software-makers and
                     users but also for export products. The Senate
                     version of this liberalized policy is, practically
                     speaking, dead, supplanted by the Secure Public
                     Networks Act by Senators Bob Kerrey
                     (D-Nebraska) and John McCain (R-Arizona). The
                     bill offers incentives to software manufacturers
for
                     building key recovery features into their products.
                     In the House, a liberalization bill by
Representative
                     Bob Goodlatte (R-Virginia) is not only alive but
has
                     gained a majority of members as cosponsors. 

                     The software industry, civil liberties advocates,
and
                     privacy groups on both the right and the left have
                     opposed mandatory key recovery. Some
                     opponents were stunned by Wednesday's hearing.

                     "It was really shocking to hear how casually
                     senators and the FBI director talked about
                     imposing domestic controls," said Alan Davidson,
                     staff counsel at the Center for Democracy and
                     Technology. "They've crossed a new line in this
                     debate." 

                     "It appears that Senator Feinstein wants a
                     Constitution- free zone for the Internet," said
David
                     Banisar, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy
                     Information Center. 

                     Reuters contributed to this report.






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep  4 14:50:05 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:50:05 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970903180515.00714940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904121842.00780f0c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>
>Will is right to say Feinstein was harping on mandatory key escrow 
the
>entire time. I disagree, though, that Freeh "seemed to warm" to the 
idea;
>it's been a wet dream of the FBI for the longest time. 

Uh - duh. Actually we agree entirely.

"Seemed to warm" is - uncharacteristic as it may seem - an deliberate 
understatement.
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter at ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
   PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep  4 14:50:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:50:19 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <199709042124.XAA07781@basement.replay.com>



September 4, 1997
   Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
   By JERI CLAUSING

The word encryption traditionally conjures images of spies and 
sophisticated international organizedcrime rings. But with the dawn of 
the Internet, it is also the key to private communication and secure
business transactions. 

And while Clinton on July 1 took a very public stand for a tax-free, 
self-governed Internet, his administration is pushing to create a 
key-recovery system that would keep encrypted codes on file for law 
enforcement officials to access. 

  Translation~~These ratfuckers are trying to keep a low profile until
they can get all of their draconian legislation passed, at which time
the sheeple will find out why the "rubber boots" rider was attached to
the legislation.
  How long before the Great InterNet Tax Avoidance Crisis (TM) requires
them to access the records of all companies and individuals in order to
make certain that the royal "we" are not "cheated" by our evil fellow
citizens.

"Law enforcement needs to have a system for immediate decryption" when 
a judge determines it is likely that crime is being or is about to be 
committed, Freeh told the Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and 
Government Information. "We should also look at whether network service
providers should have a system for immediate decryption." 

Translation~~"Just as we need to be able to beat the citizens and shove 
toilet plungers up their ass if we have reason to suspect that they
have knowledge of a crime in their mind."
  Freeh wants to make certain that the citizens don't have the same
ability as the Whithouse, the Department of Justice, Congress, etc.,
to LIE to the courts, to the people, to each other. So if _we_ steal
a private company, murder members of a religious sect, get filthy
fucking rich on inside deals, then _we_ will go to jail.

TruthMonger
"What part of 'Nuke the Bastards!' don't they understand?"







From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Sep  4 14:51:59 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:51:59 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904141835.0459c8c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 03:01 PM 9/4/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
>> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
>> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
>
>Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
>to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
>invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
>for big IR lamps?
>
>Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

Depends if the camera is watched.  

Vaseline on the lens will blur the image, but you have to get close enough
to get it there.

Hard radiation will blur the film, but tends to have nasty side effects.

Pain guns can cover the lens.

Spray paint cans on long poles (as used by agitprop graffiti artists) are
useful.  (Under the cover of night...)

Laser pointers hidden nearby and aimed at the lens.  (About $20 at your
local discount office store.)

Gas or kerosine poured on the camera will make a nice tiki tourch.

An air rifle or pellet gun may be quiet enough to hit the camera from a
distance, breaking the internals of the camera.  (A crossbow will work as
well, but those may be best saved for those unmarked helicopters planting
pot seeds on your property so the government can seize it later.)

A magnet placed on the side of video cameras may screw up the picture.
(This will only work for the metal cased cameras.  You also have to use a
strong magnet and get it in the right spot.)

I am sure others will have useful suggestions.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From god at dev.null  Thu Sep  4 14:54:44 1997
From: god at dev.null (God)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:54:44 +0800
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks -- request for help
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <340F2947.44C6@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> After yesterday's crypto-hearing, I decided I should write a story about
> Stupid Senate Tricks -- how your elected representatives misspeak,
> misstate, and misstep when it comes to technology. From the "What is PGP"
> question at a recent hearing to Feinstein's meaningless blather yesterday,
> this is fertile ground.
> 
> Do you have any favorite quotes? Not just crypto, but CDA, copyright, and
> technology in general. Send 'em to declan at well.com.

  What about FineSwine announcing that she is turning her vote over to
the NSAzi's and the FBInquisitioners?

  What about Clinton announcing that he is in favor of a self-governing
InterNet with government spies everywhere?

  What about politicians still calling America a "democracy."  Ha, ha,
pretty funny. 

GodMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep  4 15:11:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 06:11:04 +0800
Subject: One Smart Polack (Was: Students of Hitler)
Message-ID: <199709042157.XAA10948@basement.replay.com>



Vin Suprynowicz,   vin at lvrj.com
"A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a police
state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms shall not 
be infringed."

http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/






From feanor at nym.alias.net  Thu Sep  4 15:35:10 1997
From: feanor at nym.alias.net (Feanor Curufinwe)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 06:35:10 +0800
Subject: Alternative to MTB?  (was Re: DigiCash issuers)
Message-ID: <19970904222009.7332.qmail@nym.alias.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sep 4, 14:17, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
} Subject: DigiCash issuers
> 
> Feanor wrote:
> >There might be other reasons for this:  have you looked at their _fees_???
> >Holy crap!  That's the only reason I don't have an account.  They're charging
> >top dollar for every aspect of a system that has it's only overhead in
> minimal
> >amounts of CPU time.
> 
> 
> You might be a bit behind the times on this issue.  Recently 
> MTB announced new lower fees: http://www.marktwain.com/fee.html
> 
> Are these the ones you consider excessive?

No, actually, they're fine.  Except that they penalize the merchant mroe than
the customer, which I find stupid in a tech as new as this.

> Note that if you consider the new fees to be reasonable, then 
> you are now obliged to open account as per your publically 
> posted exclamation quoted above.  :-)

Hrmm... Well, It appears I lied.  Here's the _other_ reasons why might not still
get an MTB account (although I might anyways, with some creative form filling):

1.  Lack of real anonymity.  Feh.  Nuff said.
2.  Cleint software.  You should be able to do e-cash with e-mail if you want
	to.
3.  Lack of code avalability.  Although this is improving.
4.  Chaumian blind signatures. OK, the guy's smart, but I've heard over and over
	again how much of a prick he is about liscencing.  Liek a multiplication
	and subsequent division deserves a patent.  Sheesh.

I asked before, but no-one answered:

Would any of you be interested in an e-cash that didn't have any of the points
above working against it?  Although, obviously, client softare could be writtent
ot facilitate things.

As I said before, the mint does not need to store identity-related info with the
list of coins.  With an e-mail based system and the remailers, you can be _sure_
this is not taking place.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNA79jxkU7YRPCnEJAQFNQgIAwNJpK/NRKjtLM6z0kEzwxpHlhTxoj/WF
XOZDZ3rXNfgs7oamptvRKa5+WXo3qzvqEQUk3BPKgaU8zhQuKW8LDw==
=87LT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From alrice at swcp.com  Thu Sep  4 16:08:59 1997
From: alrice at swcp.com (Alex Rice)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:08:59 +0800
Subject: U.S. Prison Labor
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709042249.QAA10332@tora.swcp.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

bureau42> Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
bureau42> inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?
bureau42> Thanx

You might want to visit http://www.pinkertons.com/ and hit "Security
Consulting Systems".

- -- 
Alex Rice 
'finger -l alrice at swcp.com' for PGP public key
- ---
"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would
set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave
them." --Dune.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBNA86gW0YPJ2QYdEFAQF8xgQAn/fuZdRELut5whBGEsPcE/M70sOz15p/
mc8MO3yquids25uCniRApeUUxMZEn08l7jTuMdIcbitVetsZuMlOO6CCre05RUvw
WLeKiri+IkQV7mty/+219qYOLadsi6PVyPIzK2pAUEFztt+WxPJdEdRuGouEScOY
XpbemxyaYRY=
=1UDk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Sep  4 16:28:02 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:28:02 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <19970904154807.23567@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: 



Fabrice Planchon  writes:

> 
> On Thu, Sep 04, 1997 at 10:01:20AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > (We have the cameras in our area, too. In Campbell, CA, for example. My
> > recollection from news stories is that the camera also snaps a photo of the
> > driver, allowing reasonably positive ID. If the photo is blurred or not
> > usable in court, the traffic charge is dropped (probably only if
> > challenged, though). Some interesting constitutional issues, it seems to
> > me. Namely, if Alice is driving Bob's car and is ticketed, should Bob face
> > the points on his license? Or even criminal charges? Seems to violate our
> > notions of scienter.)
> 
> Photo radars are common in France, too. I was told by a cop friend that
> no more than 20% of the photos are useable (that is, show clearly the
> license plate for purpose of identification). And the law was modified a
> couple of years ago, to answer the question you ask. If somebody is
> driving your car, and you don't give his name, then you face the charges
> (pay the ticket, and get the points...). The funny thing is, when they
> started using photo radars, they were sending the photo with the
> summons. Which, of course can be a problem, as if your wife opens it and
> find the photo with you and and your mistress. This actually happened,
> and the court ruled it was a violation of privacy. Now you have to go to
> the police to see the photo. Needless to say, anything you would use to
> cover your plates is outlawed...


I believe in New York State the car owner is liable for the fine, but no
one gets points off the licence based on the photo.

In some jurisdictions one can get a ticket for having too much mud or dust
on the licence tag, making it hard to read.

P.S. Also in NYS cars have a paper sticker on the inside of the windshield
listing among other things the recent mileage, the year, and the licence #.
Tim's idea of using another car's tags won't work here.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep  4 16:31:12 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:31:12 +0800
Subject: TEA REMAILER: new mix key & type-1 pgponly mended
Message-ID: <199709042222.XAA05406@notatla.demon.co.uk>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



My apologies for the recent failure of the type-1 portion of tea,
due to my clumsiness with procmail.

The tea remailer has a new mix key, as is my custom, old ones
remain in force _for a little while_.  (If somebody can explain how
to force the use of the previous key on a new installation I'd
be pleased to learn - I haven't managed so far.)

The (not very) old PGP key remains unchanged.


Here is the public key for The Email Anonymizer:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
tea tea at notatla.demon.co.uk c0c054d374a12420e881dd7d27bff5fc 2.0.4b14 MC

- -----Begin Mix Key-----
c0c054d374a12420e881dd7d27bff5fc
258
AASoHzHsRr3emZA9t0ARvKUf6K4/5rYxRxuYk7XD
6ECrnZIQjYYeloI2yiiN+NUXCrVbsSUJqgGCnX+O
XoTdOaO2d/GA5r4rB8EsjLVNewAKq9w6a7vIhO5m
4OyNC7rvA3xkiaexrdbt6/qN4Ab1+SY7GuTOKXwy
5bLHC2qPzqVVNwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
- -----End Mix Key-----



Key for user ID: The Email Anonymizer 
2048-bit key, key ID C551BA85, created 1997/08/25

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

mQENAjQBmK8AAAEIAOHEvRoyB2+TRDdVfIYmSWE+2mHdGVGfSOfdheMUpsUTn2PF
Hg3cCEAcpp9KJjSW4hIu0csBcpdEFMb4uu8ZCZIgjOs6QFLhqb6MnVNAXJoxfq1Y
U0sl32/ttKBlFvDFJ9vDgORML9Gqz/chgfDGNbe4Cd0DNy7K8azrVdnPE+4SrH0e
C/cfZPfRbYTauQ1Qx1Z2sSp2muDRhodnM1U124Rxkr3nEECadpQfofVDRc5sKAu5
/Vi5TDyj+YLrw33ilp3KceAsCod6WW1JUJm0fkTHEXRrfC6QFq5FiV1kcxx+WwW2
nMHbv3SaLbdPnIsfJPmi/AsdLPfacNP6IsVRuoUABRG0LlRoZSBFbWFpbCBBbm9u
eW1pemVyIDx0ZWFAbm90YXRsYS5kZW1vbi5jby51az6JARUCBRA0AZiwcNP6IsVR
uoUBAfM1CADFwRTqyrYENZy+5jFGv8fOteXcR+AvpLcY1Rz6Wkz4EbFS75ZO9lrU
oUSwGhR5hyzitBmNBKoJxuZxTf/8TePvUC4uSZViWIvQeFFRnC6ho6iEk2lSE/aQ
xHLXSReoXhjOwrZXn0Uot6wG1J3sxfytbBQrpAcNIiqXVlYNvJzCjTemdjjPcec3
Q4v02YsPBUIS3eFBJtNmrVjbMuG/EvJvI1TsSwTklp/z7ieIsZ02uIgW80N3cGZG
b7fF32wlZUOQdkXjcbc3+ND2+uqnMK4Lp9qQVs30q6rg71TPm372YJE13BkcWcYw
BgypsiaVtbEmxR6AINj38XIk2IaPRT1Q
=mKq+
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAgUBNA80E0rZ5ZQH9XIxAQEqKgP8DROVlKims1cIxImaormPrsGk7HLnxCtq
pw5WjER7nnI4jQMhXAlo4sWUeuCNKaCCq9zzghrtlRO2hHKk4QJ1DtKvKhlcs9Go
V0cT/iCoz51ogxRWma/G+3LKUoTTq34+6KsCFxl+sCvjk0gFBQQSqUPx+BBxbh41
HgaD/zFS/E4=
=/0UG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Sep  4 16:36:12 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:36:12 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Ray Arachelian  writes:

> On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
> > your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
> > (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
> 
> Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
> to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
> invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
> for big IR lamps?
> 
> Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

A little laser aimed at the right place at the right time?

(My late grandfather lost an eye in a laser accident)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Sep  4 16:36:15 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:36:15 +0800
Subject: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
In-Reply-To: <19970904175553.11355.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



Mike Duvos  writes:

> 
> Officer Volpe is back on the job, on modified duty minus his badge and
> gun.  Apparently the union contract prohibits suspensions over 30 days in
> length. 
> 
> Gee - you'd think someone like that would be in jail on multimillion
> dollar bail as a "suspected sex offender."  If he is convicted, will laws
> require him to register for life and notify his neighbors when he moves in
> next door to them? 
> 
> I certainly wouldn't want this sadistic pervert with his fixation on
> minority anuses living next door to me.  If he weren't a cop, they
> probably would have searched his house immediately looking for evidence of
> other crimes.  I'll bet Officer Volpe has a really unusual porn and dildo
> collection.

This Volpe guy has been convicted in the media already.

I don't know about Prof. Duvos, but I'm not psychic, haven't been there,
and haven't seen anything.  We have a collection of highly contradictory
statements from the same folks whose official party line is that OJ didn't
butcher two people and that Tawana Brawley (remember her?) was raped by
white cops. I haven't seen any evidence that would contradict the defense's
claim that the victim was sodomized with the plunger in the night club before
he was taken into custody by the police.

By the way, have you seen the alleged daughter whom the victim hasn't been
in touch with since her birth?  Now that her mother got the whiff of tens of
millions of dollars in settlement, she's very interested in her alleged father.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep  4 17:22:27 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:22:27 +0800
Subject: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by A.Pressman (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:06:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by A.Pressman



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 16:55:06 -0400
From: Aaron Pressman 
To: declan at well.com
Subject: crytpo etc

Clinton administration back away from FBI on encryption
    By Aaron Pressman
   WASHINGTON, Sept 4 (Reuter) - The Clinton administration's top official
on encryption policy on Thursday backed away from a proposal by the head of
 the FBI to regulate for the first time computer coding products in the
United States.
   "What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Commerce
Undersecretary William Reinsch told reporters during a break at a
congressional hearing.
   FBI Director Louis Freeh's comments Wednesday before a subcommittee of
the Senate Judiciary Committee sparked strong criticism from civil
liberties groups and the software industry.
   U.S. law strictly regulates the export of encryption products, which can
 be used to scramble information and render it unreadable without a
password or software "key." But on Wednesday, Freeh proposed mandatory
controls on currently unregulated coding products intended solely for
domestic use.
   "The administration has been very clear to the director that he has an
obligation to tell the Congress what's in the interests of law enforcement,
 and he did that," Reinsch explained. "That doesn't mean he was speaking
for everybody."
   Freeh said makers of encryption products should include features that
would allow the government to crack any message.
   Without such capabilities, criminals, terrorists and pedophiles could
use encryption to hide their communications from law enforcement agencies,
Freeh said.
   But software companies maintain that Freeh's plan would make their
products less attractive and make all electronic messages less secure.
Civil liberties groups said mandatory controls on domestic encryption might
 violate constitutional guarantees of free speech and privacy.
   Under the FBI director's proposal, all encryption products would have a
feature allowing government access to coded messages, but users could
disable or avoid using the feature.
   Some senators wanted to go further. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a California
Democrat, proposed requiring all users of encryption to enable the
back-door access feature. Freeh said such a law would be the best solution
for law enforcement but added that he did not think it was politically
viable.
   Reinsch said Freeh's proposal was also unlikely to pass.
   "If the committee were to report that (bill out), I think that would be
something we would look at very seriously," he said. "But I don't expect
that to happen. We have not asked them to report that and we are not going
to ask them to report that."

Thursday, 4 September 1997 16:13:38
RTRS [nN04290412]


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.








From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Sep  4 17:35:24 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:35:24 +0800
Subject: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970905002220.13272.qmail@zipcon.net>



Dr. Vulis writes:

 > I haven't seen any evidence that would contradict the defense's claim
 > that the victim was sodomized with the plunger in the night club before
 > he was taken into custody by the police. 

Ah.  So he fought like a tiger against police who were beating him
with their radios with a broken jaw, ruptured bladder, and perforated
colon suffered hours earlier during a kinky gay sex act.

I've never seen a case of alleged police brutality the police didn't 
try to lie their way out of.  Perhaps this will be the first.

 > By the way, have you seen the alleged daughter whom the victim hasn't
 > been in touch with since her birth?  Now that her mother got the whiff
 > of tens of millions of dollars in settlement, she's very interested in
 > her alleged father.

Maybe she can hire Bill Cosby's lawyer. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From attila at hun.org  Thu Sep  4 17:38:36 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:38:36 +0800
Subject: U.S. Prison Labor
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709050033.SAA01538@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970904:1353 
    bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  expostulated:

+Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
+inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?
    
    try:  Linda Thompson 

    she's been on the kick of prisoners' rights, slave labour, etc.
    for some time.  Linda is a reactionary lawyer out of Indianpolis
    (of all places) --she gets around though on a lot of causes. she's
    not popular with the Feds over any number of issues, WACO for one, 
    where she has took interesting film footage.

    I've duelled with Linda before; very articulate and very 
    opinionated. usually good data, too.


  "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNA9TIb04kQrCC2kFAQGHjAP+OaTc/8HDsU12eJsz/JdvVO19+L6RbLH6
WJddcLjzk0fqUDYJI+UwKCToq2LSJ/gMvRcAetCZ8o9oHAM2sp6o1TtUJ2xIVMNO
SwMt/WqhOaZ5XLZ+aJyfuLATp5JQEOmym8w9U/LoBN3J0n/C3hOA9yBmugQSTIEa
dVSi7drxuOA=
=3bD6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Sep  4 17:58:11 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:58:11 +0800
Subject: Brute-force cracks, discovery, etc.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970904175307.007c6ea0@mail.io.com>




HotWired's "Hot Seat" interviewed two private investigators who consult
doing hostile data recovery. Their comments are interesting, both in terms
of illustrating what can (and can't) be recovered, and in terms of the
scope of civil discovery which has become standard in civil disputes. A
transcript is at
. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From nobody at neva.org  Thu Sep  4 18:40:58 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:40:58 +0800
Subject: clipper.csc.uvic.ca moved?
Message-ID: <199709050128.SAA11955@mail-gw3.pacbell.net>




Does anyone know if clipper.csc.uvic.ca has moved to another
location?







From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep  4 19:02:12 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:02:12 +0800
Subject: After Key Escrow Passes
Message-ID: <8m7aPOpXlnoBDgELISq4FQ==@bureau42.ml.org>




"Badges? We don't need no stinking _badges_!"

PlagaristMonger






From update at INTERACTIVE.WSJ.COM  Fri Sep  5 10:08:12 1997
From: update at INTERACTIVE.WSJ.COM (WSJ Interactive Edition Editors)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:08:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interactive Journal Launches New Tech Center
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970905115042.00ac87f0@pop.dowjones.com>


Dear Interactive Journal Subscriber:

If you haven't noticed it already, I wanted you to be aware of our new Tech
Center (http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/summaries/techmain.htm),
which represents a dramatic expansion of the Interactive
Journal's coverage of technology companies, trends and stocks.

Since we launched the Interactive Journal more than a year ago, our
technology pages and articles have consistently been among our most popular.
Tech Center, we think, not only organizes our coverage better but also
increases the number of stories we follow and the depth of background we
can deliver.

Tech Center reflects news contributions not only from the print
editions of The Wall Street Journal and from Dow Jones Newswires, but also
from an expanded Interactive Journal news staff in New York and San
Francisco dedicated to original coverage for the section. Its four
news areas, all updated throughout the day and night, are:

� Systems - Breaking stories in hardware and software.
� Ventures - Alliances and new businesses shaping the technology landscape.
� Fast Forward - The converging worlds of telecommunications, media and
computing.
� Tech Stocks - Major earnings announcements and other trends of interest
to technology investors.

In addition, Tech Center will offer a growing library of "Issue Briefings,"
concise background reports on key technology trends such as Java and online
privacy; exclusive Interactive Journal profiles of dozens of top technology
companies; and reader forums on major technology stories and controversial
issues. Naturally, we also include the latest from Personal Technology
columnist Walter S. Mossberg, along with an archive of all his recent columns.

Please take a moment to explore Tech Center and let us know what you think,
and what else you would like to see there.

Neil F. Budde
Editor
The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition

feedback at interactive.wsj.com




_______________________________________________________________
Check out Small Business Suite, a new Interactive Edition feature
covering issues that matter most to small business owners, entrepreneurs,
and anyone who markets products or services to small businesses.
http://wsj.com/edition/current/summaries/small.htm
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__________________________________________________________________







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Sep  4 19:13:21 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:13:21 +0800
Subject: Plunger Pervert Returns to Work
In-Reply-To: <19970905002220.13272.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



Mike Duvos  writes:

> Dr. Vulis writes:
>
>  > I haven't seen any evidence that would contradict the defense's claim
>  > that the victim was sodomized with the plunger in the night club before
>  > he was taken into custody by the police.
>
> Ah.  So he fought like a tiger against police who were beating him
> with their radios with a broken jaw, ruptured bladder, and perforated
> colon suffered hours earlier during a kinky gay sex act.

One of the stories given by the alleged victim was that he wasn't
fighting the cops at all.  Someone else supposedly punched Volpe and
Volpe supposedly mistook Louima for him. Yeah, right, and Tawana
Brawley was raped, and O.J. is innocent.

And he is Haitian and does look gay.  Remember the "4H" originally high
risk groups for AIDS, later hushed up for being politically incorrect?

> I've never seen a case of alleged police brutality the police didn't
> try to lie their way out of.  Perhaps this will be the first.

I believe in "innocent until proven guilty," even if I don't like the
accused's line of work.

>  > By the way, have you seen the alleged daughter whom the victim hasn't
>  > been in touch with since her birth?  Now that her mother got the whiff
>  > of tens of millions of dollars in settlement, she's very interested in
>  > her alleged father.
>
> Maybe she can hire Bill Cosby's lawyer.

I understand that one of the motherfucker shysters who represented O.J.Simpson
in his criminal trial is now representing Louima in a civil suit against NYC.
NYC taxpayers, get ready for an income tax hike. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From hua at chromatic.com  Thu Sep  4 19:34:13 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:34:13 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory clap escrow; Denning on export controls
Message-ID: <199709050216.TAA16978@ohio.chromatic.com>



All clap-on products sold or distributed in the U.S.
must have a clap escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a
car," law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel
this afternoon.

FBI Director Louis Freeh also told a Senate Judiciary
subcommittee that "appliance makers should be required
to have some immediate clap signature ability
available" permitting agents to readily identify
clappers who turned on or turned off appliances.

This marks the most aggressive push to date for
mandatory domestic clap escrow (or "clap recovery"),
which means someone else other than the clapper can
figure out who did the clapping.

Freeh noted that "technology has greatly changed the
balance of power in favor of the criminal element.  We
must right that balance by giving law enforcement the
tools necessary to catch the criminals.  The ability to
remotely enable/disable terrorist devices is a serious
challenge to law enforcement, and the only to stop its
criminal use is to allow law enforcement the ability to
identify the clapper.  Of course, there is already full
due-process procedures to ensure that law enforcement
officers do not violate the privacies of law-obiding
clappers.  But under a court-order warrant, we must be
able to trace the clap to its origin."

Many privacy and civil rights groups have raise
objections against such regulations.  Several court
challenges to existing clap export limits are well
under way, all citing 1st Amendment violations.
Lawyers for the Department of Commerce insists that the
limits have nothing to do with the 1st Amendment, and
that Commerce (and formerly, the Department of State)
has consistently approved all export requests for
printed claps.  "But real clapping is a mechanism, not
an element of speech; it truly enables or disables
devices, including bombs and weaponery.  There are
several industries where we not only allow, but
encourage the use of clap-on technology, but we simply
cannot allow arbitrary export of clap-on devices,
because terrorists could get their hands on it."

Sen. Jon Kyl, chair of the Judiciary subcommittee on
technology, terrorism, and government information,
opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose was to
discuss clapping in a balanced manner, but that he
wanted "to explore how clap-on is affecting the way we
deal with criminals, terrorists, and the security needs
of business." Then he talked at length about "criminals
and terrorists" using clap-on bombs, and child
pornographers "using clap-on to view pornographic
images of children that they transmit across the
Internet."

Dorothy Denning, a Georgetown University professor of
computer science, did testify.  Kyl made a point of
asking her if she still supported clap escrow systems
(two recent articles by Will Rodger and Simson
Garfinkel said she was changing her mind).  "I think
clap recovery offers a very attractive approach,"
Denning said.  What about export controls? "In the
absence of any controls, the problem for law
enforcement would get worse," she replied.

But when Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif) asked if
Denning would support a *mandatory* clap escrow system,
the computer scientist said she wouldn't.  "No, because
we don't have a lot of experience we clap recovery
systems ... a lot of people are legitimately nervous."

Sen. Feinstein asked Dir. Freeh if such voluntary
systems would give the clapping criminal freedom to
simply turn off the features to support lawful clap
recovery.  Dir. Freeh replied that he was certainly
"warm" to the ideal of mandatory clap escrow, but
public opinion simply did not support it.

Recent FOIA'ed documents obtained by EPIC, a privacy
watchdog group, showed that, as far back as the Reagan
administration, clap-on technology was under the
scrutiny of the law enforcement and intelligence
agencies.  The memos include references to the Digital
Clapphony legislation, which was pushed through two
years ago by heavy last-minute behind-the-scene
lobbying in the congressional budget bill, and to the
proliferation of software clapping technology.

The administration refused to comment on the FOIA'ed
documents.

--------

Another one that couldn't wait until 4/1.  Apologies to
Declan to extremely "liberal" pilfering of his article.

And, of course, to the Clap On! lawyers: This is a
parody and a joke ... in case it was not clear.

Ern






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Thu Sep  4 20:56:49 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:56:49 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709050350.XAA20506@www.video-collage.com>



At 03:01 PM 9/4/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
>> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
>> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
>
>Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
>to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
>invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
>for big IR lamps?
>
>Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

Better yet.  A carbon dioxide lazer.  Can be small and could probably be
rigged up to plug into the ciggarate lighter.  A focused, IR beam.

X-Ray tubes look simple enough.  Might want to invest in a little shielding
however.

If it is an old fashoned camera, you might be able to beat it with the same
countermeasures that mess up tv sets.  Heck, if the thing is connected with
any RF system for recording, you might anyway.  Just use a boosted CB to jam it.

If the system relies on the radar gun to activate it.  Invest in a jammer,
(only illegal in a few states, such as Oklahoma, which can use a
radar-detector so it really doesn't matter.)  Even if it doesn't work, (in
that the camera actually takes a picture) at least it should say that you
were going the speed limit.

The unit I saw advertised said that the gun wouldn't even display because it
wouldn't be able to get consistant readings.  But I have heard of people
setting transmitters on thier cars that broadcast at a certain frequency
which corresponded to a certain speed to those doppler guns.






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Thu Sep  4 21:02:28 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:02:28 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
Message-ID: <199709050351.XAA20543@www.video-collage.com>



At 02:18 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
...
>Depends if the camera is watched.  
...
>Spray paint cans on long poles (as used by agitprop graffiti artists) are
>useful.  (Under the cover of night...)
...
>An air rifle or pellet gun may be quiet enough to hit the camera from a
>distance, breaking the internals of the camera.  (A crossbow will work as
>well, but those may be best saved for those unmarked helicopters planting
>pot seeds on your property so the government can seize it later.)
>
...
>I am sure others will have useful suggestions.
...
Alan's mention of spray paint reminded me of paintball guns.  I'll leave the
specifics to you to work out.






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Thu Sep  4 21:13:22 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:13:22 +0800
Subject: 128-bit Netscape v4 for Linux???
Message-ID: <199709050355.WAA08121@manifold.algebra.com>



Hello,

I am wondering if Netscape Communicator version 4.* is available for Linux
with 128-bit encryption. Please email me or post a followup. Thank you.

	- Igor.






From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Sep  4 21:16:09 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:16:09 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>



In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From nicknoize at iname.com  Thu Sep  4 21:20:59 1997
From: nicknoize at iname.com (Nick)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:20:59 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: <340F81A6.68FE@iname.com>



There was a story a few weeks ago about how the various
federal bueracracies are not keen on giving their keys to ANY sort of 
"trusted third party" whether it is a psuedo private or overtly gov't 
entity.  They don't trust each other and are of course interested in 
being able to keep their own dirty little secrets to themselves.  
They seem to realize that the plan gives the administration and it's 
FBI, Stalanesque powers over every other dept, as well as the 
citezenry.

Then earlier this evening,an administration spokesman, issued a press 
statement distancing the administration from Freeh's testimony 
in  an effort to deflect some of  the  resulting  fallout. 



 



 
> The on-line NYT's claim today that everyone except the 
> administration is opposed to its crypto policy is daring
> hyperbole. What's your take on that?
> 
>   http://jya.com/crypto-tops.htm
> 
>






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 21:27:47 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:27:47 +0800
Subject: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by A.Pressman (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970904210752.0072b720@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 05:06 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Clinton administration back away from FBI on encryption
>    By Aaron Pressman
>   WASHINGTON, Sept 4 (Reuter) - The Clinton administration's top official
>on encryption policy on Thursday backed away from a proposal by the head of
> the FBI to regulate for the first time computer coding products in the
>United States.
>   "What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Commerce
>Undersecretary William Reinsch told reporters during a break at a
>congressional hearing.

Of course it isn't. Not yet. This is called playing "good cop, bad cop".


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  4 21:42:00 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:42:00 +0800
Subject: standardizing encryption
Message-ID: <19970905042902.22589.qmail@hotmail.com>



Do you think do to use standardizing encryption?
I think It isn't too very good.

 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From attila at hun.org  Thu Sep  4 22:11:25 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:11:25 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199709050459.WAA14075@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970904:2103 
    Mike Duvos  expostulated:

+In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
+Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that his
+country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to look like
+suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

+Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

    that only takes two at most --probably not a good idea to live
    in the top 98 metropolitan areas of the United States --or down
    wind from same.


  "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNA+RZL04kQrCC2kFAQHqpAP9FRVbpvbHCV/bAZWmrZ2jlSKRxZ5OhS18
GPkF0NcgmtSrzujv0w1pc9W9eijGQxYK6YEabACaLT89hhhpzGtnvJpEypnMJJo5
BnHUtf1x6zGMIjvG3Bt9XQ5bShFkmXc90/CSxulTaijo/0wO6fk3PvTjJwwMIO9O
wsmwdQO1mXA=
=wBzK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep  4 22:22:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:22:55 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



At 9:03 PM -0700 9/4/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
>Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
>his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
>look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.
>
>Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)
>

I'm surprised this wasn't hushed up. The U.S. intelligence community has
known this for a long time, and reports to Congress have alluded to this.
Still, the Administration's position has tended to be that this is not as
much of a threat as it seems (this despite the interception of at least one
nuke near the Iranian border with one of the former Soviet republics--the
nukes _not_ intercepted are presumably now in Iran, etc.).

Interestingly, my first conscious exposure to our National Crypto Czar,
David Aaron, was when I read his first novel, a terrorist thriller called
"State Scarlet" (as I recall). It was about German terrorists gaining
access to battlefield nukes. (Again, from my memory of reading this, circa
ten years ago.)

Stay away from soft targets (Tel Aviv, Haifa, the ZOG section of Jerusalem,
New York, Washington, and so on--Harbors (e.g., Haifa, NYC) are pretty
likely targets, due to the extreme ease of delivery). But also be prepared
for major disruptions and panic even if you are nowhere near the blast.

Have at least a month's supply of canned and dried goods (noodles, rice,
cereals, ramen, etc.), and at least 30 gallons of water per person, for a
month's supply of water. Tips on all sorts of such planning can be found in
misc.survivalism.

(Having experienced the 7.1 earthquake in northern California in 1989, a
few miles from the epicenter, the biggest hassle was having to leave my
home to get supplies I'd foolishly neglected to get. In a major disruption,
the long lines and stranded cars could be the greatest threat.)

And have at least one gun you are competent with. And emergency lanterns,
in case the grid goes down. And so on.

(I just added a Honda 2.5 KW generator to my setup. Not the largest in
wattage, but very high quality, and enough to run what I would want to run.)

Oh, and after such a shock to the system, expect martial law and all of our
worst fears about Freeh and his Federal Police cracking down on all
dissidents.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From amp at pobox.com  Thu Sep  4 23:08:04 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:08:04 +0800
Subject: U.S. Prison Labor
In-Reply-To: <199709050033.SAA01538@infowest.com>
Message-ID: 



Linda's address has changed it's now lindat at snowhill.com


------------------------
  From: "Attila T. Hun" 
  Subject: Re: U.S. Prison Labor 
  Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 00:26:29 +0000 
  To: cypherpunks 


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> on or about 970904:1353 
>     bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  expostulated:
> 
> +Does anyone have pointers to information/details about U.S. prison
> +inmates being used as slave labour for international corporations?
>     
>     try:  Linda Thompson 
> 
>     she's been on the kick of prisoners' rights, slave labour, etc.
>     for some time.  Linda is a reactionary lawyer out of Indianpolis
>     (of all places) --she gets around though on a lot of causes. she's
>     not popular with the Feds over any number of issues, WACO for one, 
>     where she has took interesting film footage.
> 
>     I've duelled with Linda before; very articulate and very 
>     opinionated. usually good data, too.
> 
> 
>   "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     

>         --Benjamin Franklin
>  ______________________________________________________________________
>  "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3i
> Charset: latin1
> Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be
> 
> iQCVAwUBNA9TIb04kQrCC2kFAQGHjAP+OaTc/8HDsU12eJsz/JdvVO19+L6RbLH6
> WJddcLjzk0fqUDYJI+UwKCToq2LSJ/gMvRcAetCZ8o9oHAM2sp6o1TtUJ2xIVMNO
> SwMt/WqhOaZ5XLZ+aJyfuLATp5JQEOmym8w9U/LoBN3J0n/C3hOA9yBmugQSTIEa
> dVSi7drxuOA=
> =3bD6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/05/97
Time: 00:47:01
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i



Here is the contents of a letter I sent to the San Jose Mercury News.  Any
bets on whether it gets published?

It is not surprising that FBI Director Louis Freeh wants to be able to read
every private communication in the country.  After all, he is director of
the government agency that rose to its current prominence because
Director-for-life J. Edgar Hoover used illegal wiretaps to blackmail
prominent politicians.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Sep  4 23:53:21 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:53:21 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: <2bb492db8556543171a4af60b2cea4ed@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



At 12:01 PM -0700 9/4/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 2) When you find one of these unattended critters along the road, wave
>> your hand in front of it at amazing speeds until it runs out of film.
>> (Ensure middle finger is extended.)
>
>Depends on the kind of camera.  If it's a video camera, you might be able
>to blind the bitch by blasting loads of IR at it which would be
>invisible to any donut munchers watching you....   Anyone know a source
>for big IR lamps?
>
>Any way to defeat film bearing cameras?

Try near UV.  Goes thru glass and exposes film, but is stopped by the human
eye.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep  5 15:06:43 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:06:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In utter anthesis of the way we normally do things at DCSB,


               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents
                      An Utterly Unplanned
                          Last-Minute
                       Spur of the Moment
                      Boston Pub-Crawling

                   Celebration of the Expiration
                             of the
                 Diffie-Hellman Public Key Patent



                    Saturday, September 6, 1997
                     3pm - Whenever we give up

                   at The William Braddock Cafe,
                        A.K.A  Doyles's

                      3484 Washington Street,
                      Boston (Jamaica Plain)


This all started out several months ago in my head as a spiffy whoop-de-do
black-tie webcasted countdown with sponsors and free champaigne and a
groaning buffet and penguin waiters and a cash bar at the Harvard Club with
a donation to a worthy cause, but, well, we couldn't get a time on the
patent, so the countdown was out, and we couldn't get sponsors (remembering
the last cocktail party, maybe there's a reason?), so the free bubbly and
munchies was out, PETA got us on the way we wanted to make the penguins
groan, and we couldn't think of a worthy enough cause, so that was out,
and, finally, the Club is closed on Saturday, anyway. Feh. So, we're
losers, okay? What can we say? Shoot us, already...

Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
*final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:

"WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."

And so, bowing to the pressure of the media culture in memory of recent
events on the continent , (and my own cravings for porkchops and
Pickwick Ale, ) I, Robert Hettinga, by the power vested in me by
the August (or maybe it was July) membership of the Society as Their
Moderator, do hereby unilaterally declare an Official Social Function of
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston to occur at Doyle's, 3484 Washington
Street, Jamaica Plain, Boston, tomorrow, Septmber 6, 1997, at 3PM Eastern
Standard Time, my God have mercy on our souls.

Bring your own money. :-). Be prepared to buy the moderator a drink.

If Doyle's gets boring, we'll crawl elsewhere, but only after an hour has
elapsed. If Doyle's isn't boring, we'll drink ourselves under the table, or
at least face-down on it, or until we're shown the door, or maybe until our
wives come and take us home, or something.

And, so, to paraphrase that great statesman, one David 'Davey' Crockett:
"Y'all can go to Hell. [or, Washington, or the Valley, or Texas, as the
case may be...] *I'm* going to Doyle's."

See you there.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Im)Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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Charset: noconv

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Fri Sep  5 02:05:09 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:05:09 +0800
Subject: standardizing encryption
In-Reply-To: <19970905042902.22589.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> Do you think do to use standardizing encryption?
> I think It isn't too very good.

Rather then being not too good, it is infact neccery.  Unless we have a
standard, secure encrytion system, cryto is next to useless.

What is the use of encrypting your email if the recpent can't decode it.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNA+NeKQK0ynCmdStAQGETAP/ZkR38yTZB3TIySLcvHIS1/RTF1WJzn9E
c9qgK6/EzqQUCLrwmHYLfANmOiifcREwemZq9xplsusisDWNXWcGdUcjtVXYWByn
fovjh0iqnhD2Dap8GYO3lMXQm3y+Wju2gsiALIoqCijU6mpFJ6gd5u3mSI2K4AwC
Z+oYzcKFT9c=
=9Dbz
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From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep  5 02:08:54 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:08:54 +0800
Subject: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <340FC8CC.1F50@sk.sympatico.ca>



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     The campaign to ban land mines

Vin,
  I have long held to the "80/20 Asshole Theory."
  There are many people in life whose circumstances of birth, heredity, 
environmental influences and social status would, with everything being
equal, be destined to turn out 80% Asshole and 20% Decent Person, or
vice-versa.

  Since we can never really know what the life and circumstances of 
another person has truly encompassed, we can never be certain, upon
meeting someone who is 60% Asshole, whether they were destined to be
80% Asshole, and raised themself, or whether they were destined to be
20% Asshole, and lost major ground, becoming 80% Asshole, instead.

  I understand the perspective from which you write about Princess
Diana, but I cannot help but view her from the perspective of an
upper class young woman who was subjected to the anal-retentive
mind-programming-control of the monarchy and still managed to
raise her children in a wider world than their predecessors had been 
exposed to.
  I consider myself to be an anarchist, libertarian free-thinker and
a man of reason, but I also realize that if I were crowned King of
England tomorrow, that I might be offended if you didn't bow three
times when you entered a room where my divine presence was present.

  I truly believe that the best one can hope for in life is to raise
their children to go beyond the boundaries that limit their parents.
Diana's destiny within the monarchy was to become programmed to fit
into the narrow confines of the role prepared for her. Perhaps if her
Puppet Masters had been more patient, she may have become enslaved
according to the wishes of her superiors, but the fact is that she
was buffeted by trials and tribulations that resulted from her not
going quietly into the dark night that the monarchy had planned for
her.

  Diana used the position that was bestowed upon her to give comfort
and hope to the halt, the lame, and the downtrodden. Did she do it
out of self-serving egoism, or an attempt to gain recognition and 
fame as a humanitarian?
  I don't know, I don't care, and it is really none of my business.
What *is* my business is to view my fellow man/woman and perceive
if they are lifted up or further downtrodden by their interactions
with myself and others. I have seen the faces of the AIDS children
that she touched, when no one else would, and the lepers whom she
shook hands with, when others were afraid to do so, and I have seen
the light that she spread among those whom society had cast aside.

You said:
  "They are, after all, born into a society where a person with the
wrong accent, or skin color, can never hope to do more than dream of
a royal marriage, and dinner at the Ritz."

  You are wrong. Even the peasant and the imprisoned can dream the
dreams that come from the fairy tales that uplift us and give us
hope, however unrealistic it may be. And, even if it is one in a
million, someone will have that dream come true.
  Yes, in reality, the story of Diana, the commoner turned Princess,
was overblown. No, you are doing the downtrodden no favor by trying
to point that out to them.
  Why? Because no one will grasp the golden ring if no one tries. 
No one will rise above their predestined station in life if no one
believes that it is indeed possible to do so.

  Perhaps Diana was a priveleged, rich cunt who had it 'better' than
those whom she condescended to 'bless' with her presence and her
attention. But she touched the untouchables and she lifted those who
had been held down, and those whose lives she touched benefitted 
from her presence, no matter what her motivations or intentions.

  You write that Diana's campaign against the use of land mines is
an unrealistic attempt to negate the cheap and effective defense
of the poorer countries. Perhaps what was needed was for her to
have the input of someone such as yourself who understands the need
for cheap and effective self-defence, so that she could concentrate
her efforts on removing landmines that are no longer needed, and
preventing the dispersal of landmines which are not truly needed 
for self-defence, but are only serving as 'toys for boys' who want
to play soldier.

  As far as I am concerned, you and Diana both have something very
important in common--the world is a better place for your being here.
  We need more Vin's, so that there is someone to remind the bleeding
hearts that weakness and capitulation can cost more lives and loss of
freedom than are gained by seeking an unbalanced 'peace'.
  We need more Diana's, so that there is someone to remind the warriors
that indiscriminate use of weaponry that is not essential may result
in the loss of lives of the innocent, rather than the elimination of
the threat that must be defended against.

  I guess what I am saying is that it no more matter to me whether 
Diana is a fraudulent invention of the media, than it matters to me
whether you are a carpetbagger riding on the coat tails of the
libertarian movement.
  What matters to me is that Diana inspires others to treat the
untouchables as fellow human beings, and that you remind me to
carry a big stick to beat the fuckers with if I find them sneaking
up behind me.

  Besides, anyone who gets whacked out by the monarchy can't be all
that bad... 
{:>}------< (Help! They knocked me down, and cut off my arms!)

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep  5 02:12:43 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:12:43 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
> Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
> his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
> look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.
> 
> Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

Or live in Washington, DC! (Or New York, where I'll be spending part of
next week.)

It's about time to buy a farm in West Virginia and telecommute...

-Declan









From vipul at pobox.com  Fri Sep  5 02:52:51 1997
From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:52:51 +0800
Subject: Don't ask for permission
In-Reply-To: <199709012034.VAA07567@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199709041956.TAA00441@fountainhead.net>



Adam Back wrote:

> Depends on your definition of openly.  Jerome Thorel, at the time a
> French free-lance journalist, interviewed the head of SCSSI, he asked
> "can individuals use PGP?" and the answer was "if you asked us for
> permission we'd say no, but if you use it we won't do anything about
> it".  Jerome had this revelvation as his .sig for a while.

Exactly what happens in India. Dont ask for permission, ask for 
forgiveness. The govt doesn't want to sanction it. This could 
be becuase they might want to declare usage illegal at a latter time, 
or currently dont have the infrastructure to tap into people's 
communication, or the investment in such infrastructure is 
not justified at this time or they realize how entirely stupid 
it would be to legally restrict crypto usage. Whatever such 
a stand implies it manages to keep venture capitalists away from 
crypto products. 

best,
Vipul

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul at pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep  5 04:33:13 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:33:13 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



Prof. Mike Duvos  writes:

>
> In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
> Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
> his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
> look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

I hope one of them is used to nuke Washington, Dc.

> Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)

Never a good time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From gwb at www.gwb.com.au  Fri Sep  5 19:45:18 1997
From: gwb at www.gwb.com.au (Global Web Builders)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pauline Hanson's One Nation news letter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970906122754.2c1fad08@mail.pronet.net.au>


IF YOU WISH TO BE REMOVED FROM THE MAILING LIST PLEASE RESPOND WITH "PLEASE
REMOVE" IN THE SUBJECT LINE.

NO NEWSLETTERS ARE SENT OUT WITHOUR A PRIOR REQUEST BEING RECEIVED.

____________________________________________________________________________
_________

Issue 1.2

6th September 1997
nsw

Dear supporter, 

Firstly I would like to thank you all for the excellent feedback that I have
been getting through the Internet. For your information nearly 150,000
visits have been recorded on One Nation web sites since April this year -
that is over 1,000 a day!

Secondly, a very big thank you for those who have offered to make donations
through email. We have had donations of up to $1,000 to Pauline Hanson's One
Nation through the Internet this month - a very big help as we move towards
the next federal election. For those who have requested advice on how to
offer financial support please send your cheque made out to Pauline Hanson's
One Nation and post your cheque with your details to:

National Director, Pauline Hanson's One Nation, P.O. Box 2000, Manly, NSW, 2095

The Internet is proving to be a very valuable tool in communicating what I
say, not what the media would have you believe that I say. It is also your
opportunity to communicate your concerns to me. 

Pauline Hanson's One Nation branches are now opening at the phenomenal rate
of ten a week. For all those involved a big thank you. We are starting to
get things moving for the future of our Australia - One Nation.

For those of you who are not aware I will not be standing for a Senate seat,
even though the Australian Electoral Commission cut my federal seat of Oxley
in half - right through the middle of Ipswich. I believe that the only way
that can I continue to play a leading role for the party and for Australia
is by staying on as a federal member of parliament. As yet, I have not
decided whether to stand in the revised seat of Oxley or to stand for the
seat of Blair.

For those of you wanting to join your local branch, I will shortly be
putting up the URL for key contact details on-line on a state by state
basis. I apologise for the delay in providing these details, because of our
phenomenal growth, in the meantime please feel free to contact the national
headquarters of Pauline Hanson's One Nation in Sydney at (02) 9976 0283 for
information.

Key Internet addresses:

The Hanson Phenomenon:
http://www.gwb.com.au/hanson.html

Pauline Hanson's One Nation press releases:
http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/press

Here is a small extract from some words by a Canberra supporter:

One nation uniting the continent, One nation, proud and free,
One nation for all of Australia, One nation for you and me.

Pauline Hanson's One Nation

Pauline Hanson 






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep  5 05:08:34 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:08:34 +0800
Subject: Freeh Testimony
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970905114426.0075d948@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Declan McCullagh we offer FBI Director
Freeh's September 3 testimony to the Judiciary 
subcommittee chaired by Senator Kyl:

   http://jya.com/fbi-gak.txt  (58K)






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep  5 05:13:58 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:13:58 +0800
Subject: Junger v. DoC Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970905115647.00755b60@pop.pipeline.com>



We offer recent exchanges between Peter Junger's
attorney and BXA on the several encryption classification 
requests Peter described here a few days ago, including 
"twiddle," "fiddle," non-US PGP, ROT13, Adam Back's 
3-line of Perl RSA, Paul Leyland's one-time pad, RC2 and 
RC4, and crypto links to foreign sites:

   http://jya.com/pdj2.htm

Peter's message on this is at:

   http://jya.com/pdj-update.htm

And the original Junger v. DoS (now Junger v. DoC) 
case filings:

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm







From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep  5 05:18:30 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:18:30 +0800
Subject: Wayner on Crypto Mimicry
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970905120120.0075023c@pop.pipeline.com>



The New York Times, CyberTimes 

September 5, 1997

Behind Encryption Debate: 
Using a Mimicry Applet 

By PETER WAYNER

What is the true meaning of a message? This is the question that
Louis J. Freeh, the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, would
like every Internet service provider to start wondering. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Article
Encryption Tops Wide-Ranging Net Agenda in Congress
(September 4, 1997) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


In testimony before a Senate subcommittee on Wednesday, Freeh suggested that
the companies carrying the e-mail of the country should be able to provide a
way "for the immediate, lawful decryption of the communications or the
electronic information once that information is found by a judgeto be in
furtherance of a criminal activity or a national security matter." 

The only problem is that data is so easy to mutate that it is hard to
determine what is the true message. Even after discounting the jokes about
the doublespeak of politicians or the beautiful lies that lovers spin to
seduce, there are deeper questions of whether it is ever possible to find
the correct message in data. 

This applet shows how data can be mutated into innocent-sounding plaintext
with the push of a button. In this case, the destination is a voiceover from
a hypothetical baseball game between teams named the Blogs and the Whappers. 

The information is encoded by choosing the words, the players and the action
in the game. In some cases, one message will lead to a string of homeruns,
and in other cases a different message will strike out three players in a
row. See the FAQ for more information. 



The applet takes a few minutes to load. When it is ready, you'll see three
text-input windows. The first window is where you type the message that you
want the applet to encode. The second, larger window is where the
mimicry-encoded message appears. 

Mimicry can be reversed by pushing the second button. The output is
replicated at the bottom. Remember that any error in the text can mess up
the result. 

There are plenty of limitations to this system. It only sends uppercase
letters and spaces. Lowercase letters are converted to uppercase, and
anything else is converted into a space. 





How do I use to send "innocent" messages? 

Type your message into the top window, push the first button and then cut
the blather out of the second box. Most of the new browsers will let you do
this, but some older browsers don't have this capability. Upgrade to
Netscape Communicator 4.0 or Microsoft's Internet Explorer 3.0 for this
feature. 

To unscramble the "innocent" message, the receiver needs to call up this
page and paste your message into the second box and then push the second
button. The hidden message will appear in the bottom window. 







From 37166040 at usa.net  Fri Sep  5 21:08:16 1997
From: 37166040 at usa.net (37166040 at usa.net)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:08:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Buying All Gold & Silver Coins, Highest Prices Paid
Message-ID: <272773a5556666a2222>


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From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep  5 06:19:10 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:19:10 +0800
Subject: High Profile Detainee Seeks Legal Help
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: evian at escape.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:56:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
From:         Evian Sim 
Subject:      High Profile Detainee Seeks Legal Help
To:           CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM

September 3, 1997

Mr. Kevin Mitnick has been detained in Federal custody without bail on
computer "hacking" allegations for over thirty months.  Having no financial
resources, Mr. Mitnick has been appointed counsel from the Federal Indigent
Defense Panel.  As such, Mr. Mitnick's representation is limited; his
attorney is not permitted to assist with civil actions, such as filing a
Writ of Habeas Corpus.

For the past two years, Mr. Mitnick has attempted to assist in his own
defense by conducting legal research in the inmate law library at the
Metropolitan Detention Center (hereinafter "MDC") in Los Angeles,
California.  Mr. Mitnick's research includes reviewing court decisions for
similar factual circumstances which have occurred in his case.  MDC prison
officials have been consistently hampering Mr. Mitnick's efforts by denying
him reasonable access to law library materials.  Earlier this year, Mr.
Mitnick's lawyer submitted a formal request to Mr. Wayne Siefert, MDC
Warden, seeking permission to allow his client access to the law library on
the days set aside for inmates needing extra law library time.  The Warden
refused.

In August 1995, Mr. Mitnick filed an administrative remedy request with the
Bureau of Prisons complaining that MDC policy in connection with inmate
access to law library materials does not comply with Federal rules and
regulations.  Specifically, the Warden established a policy for MDC inmates
that detracts from Bureau of Prison's policy codified in the Code of
Federal Regulations.

Briefly, Federal law requires the Warden to grant additional law library
time to an inmate who has an "imminent court deadline".  The MDC's policy
circumvents this law by erroneously interpreting the phrase "imminent court
deadline" to include other factors, such as, whether an inmate exercises
his right to assistance of counsel, or the type of imminent court deadline.
 For example, MDC policy does not consider detention (bail), motion, status
conference, or sentencing hearings as imminent court deadlines for
represented inmates.  MDC officials use this policy as a tool to subject
inmates to arbitrary and capricious treatment.  It appears MDC policy in
connection with inmate legal activities is inconsistent with Federal law
and thereby affects the substantial rights of detainees which involve
substantial liberty interests.

In June 1997, Mr. Mitnick finally exhausted administrative remedies with
the Bureau of Prisons.  Mr. Mitnick's only avenue of vindication is to seek
judicial review in a Court of Law.  Mr. Mitnick wishes to file a Writ of
Habeas Corpus challenging his conditions of detention, and a motion to
compel Federal authorities to follow their own rules and regulations.

Mr. Mitnick is hoping to find someone with legal experience, such as an
attorney or a law student willing to donate some time to this cause to
insure fair treatment for everyone, and to allow detainees to effectively
assist in their own defense without "Government" interference.  Mr. Mitnick
needs help drafting a Habeas Corpus petition with points and authorities to
be submitted by him pro-se.  His objective is to be granted reasonable
access to law library materials to assist in his own defense.

If you would like to help Kevin, please contact him at the following address:

        Mr. Kevin Mitnick
        Reg. No. 89950-012
        P.O. Box 1500
        Los Angeles, CA 90053-1500

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep  5 06:19:24 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:19:24 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:58:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter F Cassidy 
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Peter F Cassidy 


Friends,

The campaign to bring all communications technologies under state/military
control is progressing almost exactly as planned. On my desk is the Jan.
1992 memorandum from Brent Scowcroft, former national security advisor to
Bush, outlining the digital telephony/crypto control strategy. The
president, Scowcroft wrote in the memorandum, had advised:

"Justice should go ahead now to seek a legislative fix to the digital
telephony problem, and all parties should prepare to follow through on the
encryption problem in about a year. Success with digital telephony will
lock in one major objective; we will have a beachhead we can exploit for
the encryption fix; and the encryption access options can be developed
more thoroughly in the meantime."

Digital Telephony legislation was passed in October of 1994 - after the
directors of the NSA and FBI visisted senators who were sitting on it and
placed holds on it - one for idealogical reasons, the other for
horsetrading later in the session. Within days the holds were removed, the
legislation flew through both houses in voice votes, if memory serves, and
Clinton, a war protester who has become a virtual puppet of the military
intelligence system in communications policy, signed it about a week
later. Everyone has a telephone yet the opposition couldn't muster enough
popular dissent to crush the legislation. This makes me fear for the
future of crypto, the conscious users of which define a much smaller
universe than telephone users.

Most interestingly, the FBI didn't even have real facts on wiretaps to
prove its case. A recent academic study indicates that the wiretapping
stats that the FBI used to "prove" its case - the absolute necessity of
wiretapping - were in large part falsified. (Starting in the early 90s,
requests for wiretapping suddenly shot up, while, if you check later, the
numbers of executions of the orders and subsequent arrests and
prosecutions stayed flat.)



PFC



>
> All encryption products sold or distributed in the U.S.
> must have a key escrow backdoor "like an airbag in a car,"
> law enforcement agents advised a Senate panel this
> afternoon.
>
> FBI Director Louis Freeh also told a Senate Judiciary
> subcommittee that "network service providers should be
> required to have some immediate decryption ability
> available" permitting agents to readily descramble
> encrypted messages that pass through their system.
>
> This marks the most aggressive push to date for
> mandatory domestic key escrow (or "key recovery"),
> which means someone else other than the recipient can
> decipher messages you send out. Now, the easiest way
> to win such a political tussle in Washington is to
> control the terms of the debate. And nobody
> understands that rule better than Sen. Jon Kyl
> (R-Arizona), chair of the Judiciary subcommittee on
> technology, terrorism, and government information.
>
> Kyl opened today's hearing not by saying its purpose
> was to discuss crypto in a balanced manner, but that
> he wanted "to explore how encryption is affecting the
> way we deal with criminals, terrorists, and the
> security needs of business." Then he talked at length
> about "criminals and terrorists" using crypto, and
> child pornographers "using encryption to hide
> pornographic images of children that they transmit
> across the Internet."
>
> Kyl also stacked the three panels. Out of seven
> witnesses, five were current or former law enforcement
> agents. No privacy or civil liberties advocates
> testified. Some companies including FedEx apparently
> dropped out when told they'd have to pay lip service
> to key escrow if they wanted to speak.
>
> Dorothy Denning, a Georgetown University professor of
> computer science, did testify. Kyl made a point of
> asking her if she still supported key escrow systems
> (two recent articles by Will Rodger and Simson
> Garfinkel said she was changing her mind). "I think
> key recovery offers a very attractive approach,"
> Denning said. What about export controls? "In the
> absence of any controls, the problem for law
> enforcement would get worse," she replied.
>
> But when Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif) asked if
> Denning would support a *mandatory* key escrow system,
> the computer scientist said she wouldn't. "No, because
> we don't have a lot of experience we key recovery
> systems... a lot of people are legitimately nervous."
>
> (Keep in mind that although Feinstein supposedly
> represents Silicon Valley, she's no friend of high
> tech firms. She opposes lifting export controls; in
> fact, she says that "nothing other than some form of
> mandatory key recovery really does the job" of
> preventing crime. Of course, Feinstein doesn't have a
> clue. She talks about whether businesses would want "a
> hard key or digital key or a key infrastructure." Yes,
> folks, this is in fact meaningless blather.)
>
> Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy
> Information Center in Washington, DC, says, "Simply
> stated, the Senate train is headed in the wrong
> direction. But of course this doesn't answer the
> question of what will ultimately be resolved by
> Congress? There's a very popular measure in the House
> right now that's heading in a different direction."
>
> Rotenberg is talking about Rep. Bob Goodlatte's SAFE
> bill, which is much more pro-business than S.909,
> the McCain-Kerrey Senate bill that Kyl supports. Now,
> S.909 doesn't mandate key recovery; it only strongly
> encourages it by wielding the federal government's
> purchasing power to jumpstart a key recovery
> infrastructure.
>
> But Kyl would go further. At a recent Heritage
> Foundation roundtable on encryption, I asked him, "Why
> not make key recovery technology mandatory -- after
> all, terrorists, drug kingpins and other criminals
> won't use it otherwise. Kyl's response? Not that it
> would be a violation of Constitutional due process and
> search and seizure protections or a bad idea. Instead,
> he told me he simply didn't have enough votes...
>
> -Declan
>
> --- end forwarded text
>
>
>
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>
>
>
> For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> "dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
>


For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From list1 at maxpol.com  Fri Sep  5 21:25:09 1997
From: list1 at maxpol.com (List1)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:25:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Read This Twice!!
Message-ID: <199707141441.KAA07534@maxpol.com>



    Read This Twice!!

The following opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay!

Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '96 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. I could invest
 as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got 
a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off.

A good  email extracting and mass mail program can be found at:
http://www.colba.net

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

HERE'S HOW THIS PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY

It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

 Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the Internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

MaxPol.com
C.P. 503
St-Jean-sur-Richelieu
QC, Canada  J3B 6Z8
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

ESB Comm
1213 D University Terrace
Blacksburg, VA 24060
________________________________________________________
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Generation X Communications
216 Janie Lane
Blacksburg, VA 24060
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

LaChance Information Systems
PO Box 308
Placida, FL  33946-0308
________________________________________________________


Very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!








From declan at well.com  Fri Sep  5 08:16:39 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:16:39 +0800
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks, from The Netly News
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks, from The Netly News


**********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1344,00.html
   
The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
September 5, 1997

Stupid Senate Tricks        
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

        What do you get when you mix discussions of high technology and
   the Internet with the weak minds of the aging techno-half-wits in the
   U.S. Congress? Answer: a screwball dialogue that veers haphazardly
   between the idiotic and inane.    
   
        From the infamous father of the Communications Decency Act to the
   California senator who confuses computer mice with real rodents,
   Washington lawmakers rarely have a clue about the technology they try 
   to regulate. Now that Congress is back in session, the lawmakers will
   once again be muddling through press conferences and briefings with
   the help of hovering aides. But sometimes they try to make a go of it
   on their own -- and then the results aren't pretty.

[...]

        Both houses of Congress have their share of boobs. Rep. Sonny
   Bono (R-Calif.) -- once dubbed the dumbest member of Congress by
   Washingtonian magazine -- showed up at the National Press Club in July
   1996 ostensibly to talk about copyright and the Net. Instead, he
   rambled incoherently about Cher ("I hope she doesn't put on any more
   tattoos") and sang "I've Got You, Babe" to the audience. Bono's public
   relations director once told the Los Angeles Times that when her boss 
   was mayor of Palm Springs, she had to rewrite his agendas into script 
   form: "For call to order, I wrote 'sit.' For salute the flag, I wrote
   'stand up, face flag, mouth words.'" (Yet Bono was the only member of
   Congress with the balls to challenge FBI opposition to pro-privacy
   legislation at a hearing earlier this year. Go figure.)    
   
[...]








From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep  5 08:53:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:53:45 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
In-Reply-To: <19970905040302.504.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: 



At 2:06 AM -0700 9/5/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>> In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
>> Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
>> his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
>> look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.
>>
>> Probably not a good time to visit the Zionist Entity. :)
>
>Or live in Washington, DC! (Or New York, where I'll be spending part of
>next week.)
>
>It's about time to buy a farm in West Virginia and telecommute...

Or buy the farm in Northern Virginia-Maryland?

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From sunder at brainlink.com  Fri Sep  5 08:54:53 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:54:53 +0800
Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: 



Found this on the seclist:

10)From: Duece6x6 at aol.com
Subject: EMP
 
There has been quite an interest in EMP. Very simply EMP is a broadband
electrical pulse. A friend of mine worked for the GOV on EMP test
projects. I have some of the wooden nuts and bolts from the antenna towers
and the wooden runways used to taxi aircraft for testing. He related EMP
pulses to a near miss lightning strike. As far as vehicle disabling, There
are claims that auto manufactures have built in a shut down frequency into
the computers in certain vehicles. We wound a large coil on a carpet paper
tube and put an oscillator on it and it would flood a vehicles electrical
system to shut it down, but it was huge. The easiest way to learn about
EMP is to find the International TESLA society web site and interpret the
information there.  He was the pioneer of EMP. 
 
THE DUECE







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep  5 08:57:55 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:57:55 +0800
Subject: DCSB: A Future Garrisoned
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah at mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:55:11 -0400
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce at ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: DCSB: A Future Garrisoned
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents
                          Peter Cassidy
                     Author, Technology Analyst

                        A Future Garrisoned:
                    How Long Can Military Fiat
               Control Digital Commerce Technologies?



                      Tuesday, October 7, 1997
                             12 - 2 PM
                 The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                   One Federal Street, Boston, MA




It is the wonderful American expectation of the new that informs a
belief that what is technically possible is inevitable. Peter Cassidy's
presentation - "A Future Garrisoned: How Long Can Military Fiat Control
Digitial Commerce Technologies?" - will measure the political distance
between what is possible in digital commerce and the reality of trying to
establish it in the face of a campaign of disruption orchestrated by as
influential an actor as the military-intelligence complex.
	Mr. Cassidy will discuss the decades-long twilight engagement that
has been fought between the military intelligence agencies and the
civilian sector since the late 1970s when it became apparent that
cryptography would not long remain the preserve of the military without
political intervention. (In his research, Mr. Cassidy has discovered that
military intelligence agencies in the United States have a larger scope of
interest in communications technologies than that which makes its way into
the mass media, including such vital parts of the modern infrastructure as
the civilian telephone network.)
	Mr. Cassidy will extrapolate what political and industrial
barriers this campaign of disruption presents for the wide-scale adoption
of strong cryptographic technologies, digital specie and other electronic
financial instrumentation - such as adaption of Federal Reserve policy to
the digital commerce space. As well, Mr. Cassidy will look at the routes
of evasive action that are taken by creative digital commerce pioneers to
end-run the most palpable of military barriers to electronic commerce: the
export control regulations.


For the public presses, Peter Cassidy covers technology, white collar
crime and national affairs and, for research firms, he authors analyses on
technologies and their relevant markets. His reportage and opinion pieces
have appeared in WIRED, Forbes ASAP, The Economist, The Covert Action
Quarterly, The Progressive, The Texas Observer, Telepath Magazine, Bankers
Monthly, American Banker, InformationWeek, CFO Magazine, OMNI, The Boston
Sunday Globe, Boston Magazine, The Sunday Sacramento Bee, ComputerWorld,
National Mortgage News, Mortgage Technology, The International Digital
Media Yearbook (Japan), NetscapeWorld, CIO Magazine, Webmaster Magazine,
Datamation Magazine, World Trade Magazine and dozens of magazines and
newspapers worldwide. Several of his pieces have been included in
anthologies and college social studies texts. His expertise in information
technologies has garnered him contracts with some of the most prestigious
industrial research firms in America - Giga Information Group, Dataquest,
CI-InfoCorp, Business Research Group, Inc., a subsidiary of Cahners/Reed
Elsevier, and NSI Information Services - for whom he has authored analyses
on a range of subjects including cryptography and the network security
industry.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, October 7, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, October 4, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00. Please include your e-mail
address, so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce
December  James O'Toole        Internet Coupons
January   Joseph Reagle        "Social Protocols": Meta-data
                                and Negotiation in Digital Commerce


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga,  .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to  .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to  .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From helm at fionn.es.net  Fri Sep  5 10:10:19 1997
From: helm at fionn.es.net (Michael Helm)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:10:19 +0800
Subject: PGP Keyservers and 5.0 DSS/D-H Keys...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970903224658.03486844@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199709051659.JAA14306@fionn.es.net>



There are 2 main flavors of pgp key servers, AND 2 main flavors
of pgp.  One keyserver (the Graff keyserver) uses perl + a pgp
binary to manage keys.  This has both a mail & web interface
available for it.  The other keyserver (the Horowitz keyserver)
uses its own data management routines to manage keys & is independent
of a pgp binary (which raises some integrity issues, but is
a big win).  It has a mail interface & runs a server interface
on a preselected unprivileged port.  The newer version (0.9,2) of the
Horowitz server is compatible with the new formats of the pgp 5.0
"packets".

The 2 main flavors of pgp, or pgp binaries, are 2.6.x based,
the old public available version that everyone has, & the new
pgp 5.x version that's just been released by pgp, inc.  A
windows binary is available from the company & a public release
of the source is available & is being worked on.

To address the specific question, the 2.6.x pgp binaries cannot
understand the new pgp 5.0 keys.  They can understand pgp 5.0 keys
if pgp 5.0 has chosen to make rsa-style keys.  So keyservers running
the Graff server using pgp 2.6x binary will reject or ignore new
style pgp keys.  It was a frequent poster to this list, whose 
"add" transaction bounced on ESnet's keyserver, that alerted me to the
appearance of  a beta version of the pgp 5.0 product early this spring.

There are also hybrid key servers; people who use features of both
the Horowitz & Graff key servers.  It appears to me that they mostly
use the pgp binary to get check the cryptographic integrity of
submitted keys.

If you want to read about keyservers, check
http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-faq.html
as well as the pgp pages at mit & pgp.net
If you want to read about the pgp 5.0 effort,
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

There are also keyserver variants & historical versions of pgp of course.

The Horowitz server & the pgp 5.0 source are both very new.








From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Sep  5 11:01:30 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:01:30 +0800
Subject: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
Message-ID: <2C5khz1Qq/5Whpq4Zl9wkQ==@bureau42.ml.org>




The Electronic Forgery Foundation is proud to announce a major 
breakthrough in encryption technology -- Forged Encryption.

We are offering a prize of $10,000,000.00 for anyone who can
correctly decipher the following Forged Encryption message.

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: od2CIT3fELE7K6bkIkKGJBj0MPUJ2TT8

hQCMA6ozRjzmqceZAQQAh02x0Dxer5vzZiSJ+v7bnMZQdgp425z5OH0NF/f/mXXc
vInw+UsuTXqWNEV5rEQKYjU3qHoe6suCz5f9hEEnOIBacsD28pYU4ahkGOCTuTY6
N3xKrtDRqLPInB8PY7Kfd56jjQsVVRKmJBwXqHbPax4YyUB6ZbKKvSPiuUsAAQSl
BAH3CFNKcmYjf+VtpjAVOpDNM/PMm1e6m33rZ01Sq6pXC0TTabCf7hkWscet0PCL
VX0l1Zw5IKaFqo+pZ3EICRMF6HQrc30G7L9TFeKr//3YsO3/bC4VBgNQHA0qf2nD
ldxAsTGPlRthBTxrzE0LjeOKi/pQOLXQMPQUwEIaL9rncjFgniplFoL6Nj0guJvW
VvS+gxth8hpeWss7WlFFioV0vShsS/lahA+eg/9nVy8ken8pr4m484w2vwoiSdce
CarVigVaRh6tCgh0jub7CHuDFg==
=Q9+G
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

The EFF doesn't have a copy of the correct answer locked away in
a secret underground cave in Tibet, for verification, because
the above Forged Encryption message is just a bunch of crap we
typed in pretty much at random.

Does the government want to keep your private key in escrow? Give
them a copy of your EFF private key.
Hell, give them _two_ copies, in case one is corrupted.{;>) Smile
when you give them to the government agent. Ask him how his day
has been. Offer him some coffe, and ask about his family. Tell 
him you will send him a Christmas card with another copy of your
EFF private key, just in case the government misplaces the copies
you gave them.
Put your hand over your heart, salute the flag, and sing "God Bless
America" as the government agent leaves. Then fart.

Use the EFF Forged Encryption sofware regularly, to send messages
with Subject:'s like "The Plot Against the PREZ," "Confirmation of
the date of our armed assault," "The Nuke has arrived."
Keep a copy of your EFF Forged Encryption secret key in a directory
named "Off the Pigs." 
Most importantly, never reveal in your private email to others that
you are a deaf, dumb and blind quadraplegic who has been homebound
since birth. That way, the outrageous claims that government agents
make against you in their secret deposition for a warrant to kick
in your door and terrorize you will look all the more foolish during
your trial.

We at the Electronic Forgery Foundation realize that some of you wise
guys are thinking that, for $10 million, it is well worth your while
to write a program that will decipher the above message into something
meaningful. Well, knock yourself out, dudes, but if you think that
known forgers couldn't possibly be lying about the $10 million, then
go directly to http://www.clueserver/fucking_idiot, do not pass GO
and do not collect $200.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
  This message is copyrighted under the auspices of the Electronic 
  Forgery Foundation. Any misquoting, misrepresentation, or other
  abuse of this message would be greatly appreciated. Hell, you can
  tell people you wrote it, if you want to. We don't really care.
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From frantz at communities.com  Fri Sep  5 11:05:27 1997
From: frantz at communities.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:05:27 +0800
Subject: Key Recovery is Bad for US Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>



Here is a copy of an email I sent to the senior senator from California
this morning.

Senator Feinstein:

I am extremely disturbed to read your comments in favor of mandatory "key
recovery".  Besides being a disaster for American software companies, and a
clear violation of the constitution's protections of freedom of speech,
these systems are harmful to the security of the United States.

All cryptographic systems are extremely difficult to get right.  The SSL
protocol developed by Netscape Inc., which doesn't provide for "key
recovery", went through three versions before the major problems were
removed.  "Key recovery" systems are, as Professor Dorothy Denning
testified, much more complex than similar systems which do not include that
feature.  In fact, the key recovery system built into Clipper, with the
advice of the National Security Agency, had flaws as documented by Matt
Blaze of AT&T Bell Laboratories.  If the best cryptographic group in the
world can't get it right, how can we expect these systems to be secure.

What do we risk with insecure systems?  We risk compromising the legitimate
secrets of non-classified government agencies, including IRS records;
United States companies, including delicate international negotiations; and
individual Americans, including their medical records.  Even worse, if some
group should decide to launch an information war attack on the United
States, these flaws may allow them to access sensitive systems in the
finance, transportation, and energy sectors.  One simple way this attack
could occur is if the access codes are distributed using a flawed
encryption system.

I hope you will reconsider your stand on this issue.

William S. Frantz
16345 Englewood Ave.
Los Gatos, Ca 95032

Capability Security Architect - Electric Communities


Bill Frantz                                  Electric Communities
Capability Security Guru                     10101 De Anza Blvd.
frantz at communities.com                       Cupertino, CA 95014
408/342-9576                                 http://www.communities.com






From rtfm at ctrl-alt-del.com  Fri Sep  5 11:32:42 1997
From: rtfm at ctrl-alt-del.com (RTFM)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:32:42 +0800
Subject: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
In-Reply-To: <2C5khz1Qq/5Whpq4Zl9wkQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970905111015.03f7c1e0>



At 05:31 PM 9/5/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>We at the Electronic Forgery Foundation realize that some of you wise
>guys are thinking that, for $10 million, it is well worth your while
>to write a program that will decipher the above message into something
>meaningful. Well, knock yourself out, dudes, but if you think that
>known forgers couldn't possibly be lying about the $10 million, then
>go directly to http://www.clueserver/fucking_idiot, do not pass GO
>and do not collect $200.

Clueserver.org would like to deny any connection to the above forgery
contest.  We are, in fact, working on our own contest involving a delivery
of e-cash to the first person who can predict the time and date of the
urinals in the FBI headquarters being electrified.  (Bonus e-cash if Freeh
is the first to pee in one.)

rtfm at clueserver.org






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep  5 11:47:47 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:47:47 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: 



Re: traffic cameras, the latest issue of the "Computer Currents" local to
NY has an url that supposedly reports the location of these cameras in New 
York City:

http://www.panix.com/~sshah/ss-nyred.htm

Have fun.

FedPlunger
        







From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Sep  5 11:50:08 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:50:08 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
Message-ID: <199709051839.LAA24267@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 07:40 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Who is going to stop them? They have the guns! When our elected
> officials in Congress delved into the INSLAW affair, the Department 
> of Justice told them to "Fuck off." and refused to cooperate with 
> those who represent the citizens. Congress's reaction was to say, 
> "Yup. They're defying us."
>  Ipso facto--Congress is not running the country. The LEA's are running
> the country. Go figure...

It used to be that normal federal agencies did not have their own goons.

They relied on the fibbies.

Now every federal agency is creating their own goon squad.  Sometimes
they send in the goons to illegally enforce the laws that they are 
lobbying for.  Congress then has to make it legal, or crack down on
illegal use of force by a federal agency.  Frequently they make it
legal

This is reminiscent of the latter days of the Soviet Union.

Towards the end in the Soviet Union, armed government agencies
would raid other agencies for valuables, and set up road blocks
at random times and places, and confiscate anything valuable
being trucked through by another government agency.  No kidding.

A government factory would be working on producing widgets, and
suddenly guys with guns would come in and take their stuff for
another government factory.

The west is beginning to show the same symptoms, though as yet
not nearly as severe.  The state is visibly losing cohesion, and
at the same time, through improved communications, the citizenry
is gaining cohesion.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Sep  5 11:55:49 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:55:49 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Krispin Preaches Revolution!
Message-ID: <199709051839.LAA24256@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 09:47 AM 9/4/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> And this is what I think they may try: a global crackdown to try to stamp
> out the wildfire of anarchocapitalism before it spreads beyond any hope of
> control.

I think it already too late:  A global crackdown, by creating a visible
confrontation, would simply accellerate matters.  If instead they simply
rely on social inertia, it will take a long time for existing institutions
to fade away.

We have all victories except for one very important one.  Money.

Now once we take that key bastion, and it is being besieged on every 
front, everything else will fall in due course, but it will still be 
a slow process, only unusually far sighted politicians will see and 
fear what is happening.  There is vast inertia in social institutions.

> Louis Freeh is no dummy. He understands the power struggle. But he has to
> speak babytalk to Feinswine and Kyl to let them glimpse what the issues are.

Career civil servants have more reason to take the long view than do 
politicians.  Politicians do not really care if the state is being
undermined in the long run, provided they are re-elected in the short
run.  Although politicians are our enemies, they are a lesser enemy than
career civil servants.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Fri Sep  5 12:33:26 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:33:26 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:FBI calls for mandatory key escrow
In-Reply-To: <199709051839.LAA24267@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: 





On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, James A. Donald wrote:

> At 07:40 AM 9/4/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >  Who is going to stop them? They have the guns! When our elected
> > officials in Congress delved into the INSLAW affair, the Department 
> > of Justice told them to "Fuck off." and refused to cooperate with 
> > those who represent the citizens. Congress's reaction was to say, 
> > "Yup. They're defying us."
> >  Ipso facto--Congress is not running the country. The LEA's are running
> > the country. Go figure...
> 
> It used to be that normal federal agencies did not have their own goons.
> 
> They relied on the fibbies.
> 
> Now every federal agency is creating their own goon squad.  Sometimes
> they send in the goons to illegally enforce the laws that they are 
> lobbying for.  Congress then has to make it legal, or crack down on
> illegal use of force by a federal agency.  Frequently they make it
> legal
> 
> This is reminiscent of the latter days of the Soviet Union.
> 
> Towards the end in the Soviet Union, armed government agencies
> would raid other agencies for valuables, and set up road blocks
> at random times and places, and confiscate anything valuable
> being trucked through by another government agency.  No kidding.
> 

There is an interesting analysis of this process in the book, "The
Sovereign Individual".  They point out that during the end of one
mega-political age and the beginning of the next, the agency with a force
monopoly becomes corrupt in the extreme.  The authors define a
mega-political age as a fundamental change in the balance of power between
human predators and human prey. 

For example, hunter-gatherers to agricultural to industrial to 
cypher/network/informational.

Lets just hope the transition is as quick and painless as
possible.

Anyone have any background on the author's of this book?

Lord Rees-Moggs (and someone who I can't remember)

Jim Burnes








From ddt at pgp.com  Fri Sep  5 12:56:15 1997
From: ddt at pgp.com (Dave Del Torto)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:56:15 +0800
Subject: backdoor man?
Message-ID: 



 White House policy chief backs away from FBI plan

  By Reuters September 5, 1997, 6:10 a.m. PT

WASHINGTON--The Clinton administration's top official on domestic legal
policy yesterday backed away from a proposal by the head of the FBI to
regulate access to residential property in the United States.

"What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Dept. of Justice
Undersecretary William "Mon-key" Wrench told reporters during a break at a
congressional hearing.

FBI Director Louie Free's comments Wednesday before a subcommittee of the
Senate Judiciary Committee sparked strong criticism from civil liberties
groups and the housing industry.

U.S. law, Supreme Court decicisions, and the U.S. Constitution itself,
strictly regulates law inforcement's access to private property. But on
Wednesday, Free proposed mandatory law inforcement access to all domestic
residential property, and went on to suggest commercial property be subject
to law inforcement access as well.

"The administration has been very clear to the director that he has an
obligation to tell the Congress what's in the interests of law enforcement,
and he did that," Wrench explained. "That doesn't mean he was speaking for
everybody."

Free said developers and construction companies should build their products
such that they give government free access to all domestic and commercial
buildings.

Without such capabilities, criminals, terrorists, and pedophiles could use
housing to hide their illegal activities from law enforcement agencies,
Free said.

But housing industry lobbyists maintain that Free's plan would make their
products less attractive and make all housing less secure. Civil liberties
groups said mandatory controls on domestic housing might violate
constitutional guarantees of privacy and freedom of expression.

Under the FBI director's proposal, all construction plans would have to
include special "back doors" allowing government access to the finished
structures, but residents could choose to shut their back door if they saw
fit.

Some senators wanted to go further. Sen. Dianne Fineline (D--California)
proposed requiring all housing residents to enable the back-door access
feature. Free said such a law would be the best solution for law
enforcement but added that he did not think it was politically viable.

Wrench said Free's proposal was also unlikely to pass.

"If the committee were to report that [bill out], I think that would be
something we would look at very seriously," he said. "But I don't expect
that to happen. We have not asked them to report that and we are not going
to ask them to report that."

 -30-

[from: Noah Salzman ]







From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Fri Sep  5 13:02:02 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 04:02:02 +0800
Subject: Dianaism Was: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <199709051943.PAA28355@www.video-collage.com>



At 02:54 AM 9/5/97 -0600, toto wrote:
...
>  Diana used the position that was bestowed upon her to give comfort
>and hope to the halt, the lame, and the downtrodden. Did she do it
>out of self-serving egoism, or an attempt to gain recognition and 
>fame as a humanitarian?
>  I don't know, I don't care, and it is really none of my business.
>What *is* my business is to view my fellow man/woman and perceive
>if they are lifted up or further downtrodden by their interactions
>with myself and others. I have seen the faces of the AIDS children
>that she touched, when no one else would, and the lepers whom she
>shook hands with, when others were afraid to do so, and I have seen
>the light that she spread among those whom society had cast aside.
...
Anyone care to lay odds as to how soon a religion will start up with the
late princess as the main diety?
I'm guessing 5 years for the first hard-cores.  And 20 years for
international visibility.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep  5 13:38:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 04:38:08 +0800
Subject: Dianaism Was: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <199709052012.WAA03009@basement.replay.com>



Sean Roach wrote:
> Anyone care to lay odds as to how soon a religion will start up with the
> late princess as the main diety?
> I'm guessing 5 years for the first hard-cores.  And 20 years for
> international visibility.

I have already seen one newscast which has predicted that Diana will
join Elvis as a diety-figurehead.
So, now that we have a King _and_ a Queen, why don't we start a new
nation? They would be the perfect titular heads for a Virtual Nation,
because their lifestyles would be inexpensive for us to maintain, no 
matter how lavishly we choose to treat them.






From vznuri at netcom.com  Fri Sep  5 14:01:56 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:01:56 +0800
Subject: Political News from Wired News
In-Reply-To: <340F2A6A.4A4F@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199709052050.NAA13608@netcom8.netcom.com>




it's amazing. in all the blathering by senators etc. over these
crypto bills (Feinstein, Freeh etc.), 
has *anyone* raised the possibility on the record
that the key recovery is UNCONSTITUTIONAL? 

maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single* 
reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single* 
senator to bring up that issue?







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep  5 14:40:38 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:40:38 +0800
Subject: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <341077A6.F8F@sk.sympatico.ca>



A Private Email wrote:
> 
> >  Yes, in reality, the story of Diana, the commoner turned Princess,
> >was overblown. 
> 
> Diana, though a high-school dropout who described herself as "a bit thick,"
> was not a commoner. Daughter of the 8th Earl Spencer, she was a direct
> descendant of Charles II, and thus carried more "English royal blood" in
> her veins than does Prince Charles Windsor (really Saxe-Coburg Gotha, of
> course.)

  Of course, but "the commoner turned Princess" is the fairy tale that
is perceived by the public. This is because people perceive her as
being a rather ordinary person--like them. Thus it makes the "dream"
possible for them, as well.

> Whether this makes it sensible for some overweight London shopgirl of
> Pakistani descent, with a cockney accent, to "reach for the same gold
> ring," is highly debateable. In fact, for such a woman to dream of being
> accepted into the royal family strikes me as downright loony.

  It _is_ looney. So is the "American Dream." So is going to the moon.
So is the belief that we can end poverty and war, and turn back the
tide of unconstitutional fascism that is building up for another run
at freedom and liberty.
  Sometimes the dreams come true--most often, the dream comes partly
true, or serves to inspire a person on their road to an achievable
goal in a more realistic manner.
 
> Diana Spencer appears to have been a dear and well-intentioned young woman,
> though no intellect. She bore healthy children, whom I'm sure she loved.
> But Americans' excessive and nearly worshipful fascination with her is a
> bad sign, a sign that we've lost track of our own dream. Our heroines ought
> to be intelligent, energetic women who make their own fortunes, and their
> own celebrity. Instead, we sneer at our own self-made millionaires as
> "nouveau upstarts" and "greedy exploiters of the oppressed working class."

  Yes, but the reason that Diana is so popular is that The Dream (TM)
came true for her, and then, when The Dream (TM) turned sour, because
she would not play her role as accepting pawn, she walked away from it
instead of debasing herself. Then, she overcame the powerful pressures
against her, as well as her own inner frailty, and became the best
person/Princess that was possible for her, choosing to make the best
use of the position and attention that was impossible to avoid.

> If the magazines brought us stories of women who started small businesses
> (often with their husbands), and MADE THEMSELVES rich and successful, we
> might truly be inspired to save that extra $20, to take on a part-time job,
> to start a little part-time enterprise of our own.

  It is true that the stories of the average working joe who lives
frugally and uses his/her money to put a dozen children of others
through college gets short play in the press. Likewise, the Sam Walton
and Bill Gates types of stories don't get constant exposure as do the
fairy tale stories of the rich and famous. But I think that all of
these dreams, of varying realistic levels, serve a function.

> But the hidden message
> of all the coverage of the Dianas of this world is, "You can never have
> this, because you're not of the right blood. So don't even try; just put in
> your eight hours on the assembly line, and then have a few beers and look
> at the pretty pictures of the princess, close your eyes and dream that you
> were there ... until the alarm clock rings and it's time to trudge back to
> work."

  Yes, if that is the "hidden message" that you want to see. The reality
is that we ignore reality in many ways, hence our _ability_ to dream of
things which may be somewhat (or totally) unrealistic. We construct our
own "hidden messages" according to our desires and needs.
 
> WHICH dreams we choose to indulge, can determine the course of our lives.

  I very much agree with you on this. The same applies to our choice of
role models, as well.
  Of equal or greater importance is our ability to emulate the best 
characteristics, values, etc., of our role models or our dreams, and
to eschew the qualities that are unrealistic for us, or of mean spirit.

  Perhaps Diana could have made a _better_ job of using her knowledge,
talents and social position to make the world a better place for her
having been in it, but to whom of us does this _not_ apply?
  Precious few, I suspect.

  I think that your throwing a realistic perspective on the overblown
fairy tale serves a valid purpose. It is for this type of realism that
I read your works. I don't think your perspective is a threat to those
who need to hold on to a more unrealistic view for their own purposes,
since our minds are pretty good at creating our own revisionist history
when it suits our purpose.
  As a matter of fact, your column gave me a wider base of knowledge
and perspective in viewing Diana's life and history.

  All in all, I hope that more people choose Princess Diana as a role
model of sorts, than choose Diane Feinstein.

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From janzen at idacom.hp.com  Fri Sep  5 14:52:51 1997
From: janzen at idacom.hp.com (Martin Janzen)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:52:51 +0800
Subject: "The Sovereign Individual" (Was Re: FCPUNX:FBI calls for...)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <9709052139.AA00524@sabel.idacom.hp.com>



Jim Burnes writes:
> There is an interesting analysis of this process in the book, "The
> Sovereign Individual".
> [...]

Yes, I saw this in a bookstore.  It looks interesting; if and when I
wade through my current stack of unread books, I intend to pick it up.
I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of any c-punks who have read
it, if you think it's relevant to the list.

> Anyone have any background on the author's of this book?

> Lord Rees-Moggs (and someone who I can't remember)

It's Lord William Rees-Mogg.  His co-author is James Dale Davidson,
the founder of the U.S. National Taxpayers' Union.  The two of them
previously wrote "Blood in the Streets" and "The Great Reckoning",
and publish a newsletter called "Strategic Investment".  Davidson also
wrote a pamphlet called "The Plague of the Black Debt" (!), which
appears to be intended as an advertisement for the newsletter.

(I sent away for a sample copy of SI a couple of years ago, and found
it to be a rather odd bird as far as investment newsletters go.  As I
recall, it did have a fair amount of investment analysis and advice --
presented in a rather breathless, hyperbolic style, IHMO -- but it was
mixed in with numerous articles dealing with Whitewater, Vince Foster,
and so forth.  I didn't subscribe.)

Here are a few links, courtesy of Alta Vista:

http://www.amazon.com (search for ISBN 0684810077; includes reader reviews)
http://www.strategicinvestment.com/sample.html (see it for yourself)
http://www.worth.com/articles/Z9611F08.html (the world of newsletter marketing)
http://www.free-market.com/zychik/1996/10/15.html (mentions SI, unfavorably)
http://cybersurfing.com/hfd/profl.html (caveat emptor)

--
Martin Janzen
janzen at idacom.hp.com






From hedges at sirius.infonex.com  Fri Sep  5 15:06:57 1997
From: hedges at sirius.infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:06:57 +0800
Subject: Usenet Propagation Sucks
Message-ID: <199709052156.OAA11226@sirius.infonex.com>



Mike Duvos  wrote Fri 29 Aug 1997:
>Theoretically, I was under the impression that Usenet consisted of a large
>number of machines, which compared their news spools continuously, with
>each giving the other all articles that were not on both machines. 
> 
>Practically, this seems to work a lot less well than the designers
>envisioned.

In practice, it's really tough to keep a good feed going. We happen
to keep the alt.anon* stuff for a longer period of time. We've started
keeping individual groups longer as requested by readers. This makes
them happy, for the most part. It needs so much disk! We have two incoming
server feeds and three outgoing and people still complain that their
groups don't have enough messages for their liking. Plus the damn thing's
history database has to be rebuilt twice a month, and at night lest the
customers come for blood when they don't get their daily usenet, and it
never seems to go right without someone (me namely) sleeping in the office
keeping it company during the process.

A server would need terabyte upon terabyte to store a good archive
of Usenet for, say, the past year.

I wonder if the designers could forsee Usenet's explosive popularity,
or the taxing load the spammers place.

Mark Hedges






From delta7 at onlinebiz.net  Sat Sep  6 06:36:03 1997
From: delta7 at onlinebiz.net (delta7 at onlinebiz.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "700 HITS Per Day!"
Message-ID: <199709061336.GAA18197@toad.com>


TRAFFIC...TRAFFIC...TRAFFIC...

Webpages and sites are good, but the name of the game is HITS.

I can show you how, within a matter of days, to start
getting 700 or more HITS PER DAY to your website or page.

It�s EASY...it�s FREE...and, it WORKS!

All you have to do is link the following address to your website or page:

http://www.webspawner.com/users/taxsavings/

If you want the information on how to boost your HITS immediately, e-mail me back at 
delta7 at onlinebiz.net to let me know you�ve added my address as a link.  
Also, request the "HITS Report".

I will immediately verify that you added my link, and then I will immediately
e-mail you the "HITS Report" (the report is sold for $20, but if you link me to your site, you'll receive it for FREE).  You won�t be disappointed.






From cravey at escapenet.org  Fri Sep  5 15:57:42 1997
From: cravey at escapenet.org (Stephen Cravey)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:57:42 +0800
Subject: Any Houston D-H expiration parties?
Message-ID: <34108AE0.42DF@stgenesis.org>



Is anyone throwing a DH expiration party in Houston?






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep  5 17:35:05 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:35:05 +0800
Subject: Junger v. Daley Amended Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906001329.008963bc@pop.pipeline.com>



We offer Junger v. Daley (formerly Junger v. Christopher)
Supplemental and Amended Complaint which responds
to recent exchanges between the plaintiff and the Departments
of Justice and Commerce:

   http://jya.com/pdj3.htm  (40K) plus attachments

This builds on earlier filings and documents:

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm

   http://jya.com/pdj2.htm






From cpunks at www.video-collage.com  Fri Sep  5 17:35:52 1997
From: cpunks at www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:35:52 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday. (fwd)y
Message-ID: <199709060026.UAA19169@www.video-collage.com>



----- Forwarded message from Robert Hettinga -----

>From cpunks  Fri Sep  5 18:41:29 1997
X-Sender: rah at mail.shipwright.com
Message-Id: 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:03:29 -0400
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday. 
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk

-- Start of PGP signed section.
In utter anthesis of the way we normally do things at DCSB,


               The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                            Presents
                      An Utterly Unplanned
                          Last-Minute
                       Spur of the Moment
                      Boston Pub-Crawling

                   Celebration of the Expiration
                             of the
                 Diffie-Hellman Public Key Patent



                    Saturday, September 6, 1997
                     3pm - Whenever we give up

                   at The William Braddock Cafe,
                        A.K.A  Doyles's

                      3484 Washington Street,
                      Boston (Jamaica Plain)


This all started out several months ago in my head as a spiffy whoop-de-do
black-tie webcasted countdown with sponsors and free champaigne and a
groaning buffet and penguin waiters and a cash bar at the Harvard Club with
a donation to a worthy cause, but, well, we couldn't get a time on the
patent, so the countdown was out, and we couldn't get sponsors (remembering
the last cocktail party, maybe there's a reason?), so the free bubbly and
munchies was out, PETA got us on the way we wanted to make the penguins
groan, and we couldn't think of a worthy enough cause, so that was out,
and, finally, the Club is closed on Saturday, anyway. Feh. So, we're
losers, okay? What can we say? Shoot us, already...

Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
*final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:

"WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."

And so, bowing to the pressure of the media culture in memory of recent
events on the continent , (and my own cravings for porkchops and
Pickwick Ale, ) I, Robert Hettinga, by the power vested in me by
the August (or maybe it was July) membership of the Society as Their
Moderator, do hereby unilaterally declare an Official Social Function of
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston to occur at Doyle's, 3484 Washington
Street, Jamaica Plain, Boston, tomorrow, Septmber 6, 1997, at 3PM Eastern
Standard Time, my God have mercy on our souls.

Bring your own money. :-). Be prepared to buy the moderator a drink.

If Doyle's gets boring, we'll crawl elsewhere, but only after an hour has
elapsed. If Doyle's isn't boring, we'll drink ourselves under the table, or
at least face-down on it, or until we're shown the door, or maybe until our
wives come and take us home, or something.

And, so, to paraphrase that great statesman, one David 'Davey' Crockett:
"Y'all can go to Hell. [or, Washington, or the Valley, or Texas, as the
case may be...] *I'm* going to Doyle's."

See you there.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Im)Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
-- End of PGP signed section, PGP failed!

----- End of forwarded message from Robert Hettinga -----






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep  5 17:56:29 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:56:29 +0800
Subject: New GAK Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>



5 September 1997, MSNBC:


FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.

A radical shift in crypto debate

Proposed bill outlaws non-crackable crypto products, restrict imports

By Brock N. Meeks, MSNBC

WASHINGTON -- The White House would likely be very sympathetic to a
controversial new bill that would outlaw all encryption software that 
doesn't allow law enforcement agencies to immediately decode scrambled 
messages, an administration official told MSNBC.

The new bill, still in draft form, is quietly circulating among members 
of the House and Senate. Although the administration hasn't formally 
endorsed any provisions of the bill, MSNBC has learned that the White 
House has been providing what is called technical drafting assistance
to members of Congress writing the bill. William Reinsch, the Commerce 
Department undersecretary for export administration, confirmed the White 
House involvement for MSNBC on Thursday night.

The draft bill was already in the hands of some members of the Senate's 
Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Regulation when FBI 
Director Louis Freeh outlined its basic provisions while testifying before
the panel Wednesday. Freeh said "we would recommend" that legislation be 
written requiring all encryption software or services made in or imported 
to the United States to have a feature "which would allow for the immediate, 
lawful decryption" of any scrambled messages used for illegal purposes or 
in a national security matter.
                           
NATION AT RISK?

The White House, FBI and intelligence agencies claim that the proliferation 
of unbreakable encryption products puts the nation at risk. Criminals and 
terrorists are increasingly using unbreakable encryption products, Freeh
testified Wednesday. 

U.S. makers of encryption software claim that any government-mandated decoding 
features would make their products unacceptable to clients in the global 
marketplace. The new proposals outlined by Freeh also drew the ire of civil
liberties groups, which fear that any government controls on encryption 
products raise serious First Amendment and privacy concerns.

Placing such government-mandated controls on the domestic use and manufacture 
of encryption software, as well as on the import of encryption products, 
stands in marked contrast to current White House crypto policies. Currently,
the United States places strict regulations on the export of any encryption 
products that do make decoding keys available to law enforcement agencies. 
However, the administration has steadfastly maintained throughout the often
contentious public debate over encryption policies that it would not place 
any restrictions on the domestic use of encryption software, nor would it
restrict the import of encryption products. 

Despite Freeh's testimony and the draft legislation written with White House 
assistance, Reinsch said the administration's policy on encryption hasn't 
changed. "I want to emphasize that [in providing drafting assistance] we are
responding to committee requests," he said. "And those requests have been 
fairly directive, such as: 'Give us some examples of how we can better 
accommodate law enforcement needs.' " 

Currently, the White House is backing an encryption bill in the Senate called 
the Secure Public Networks Act, also known as S. 909. This bill would 
encourage the use of and set up guidelines for encryption software products 
with decoding keys. Under this plan, all coded messages would spin off a 
decoding key that would be stored with a government-approved third party. 
Law enforcement agencies, foreign or domestic, would be allowed access to 
those keys if they obtained a court-ordered warrant. The bill would not 
restrict or require any encryption software used in the United States, or 
restrict the import of any foreign crypto products. 

However, MSNBC has learned that the draft bill now circulating among members 
of the House and Senate specifically outlaws the "manufacture, distribution 
or import" of any encryption software product or communication device that 
does not "allow the immediate decryption" of all scrambled messages or 
communications "if used for illegal purposes." The bill also targets 
"network services," such as Internet Service Providers, that provide 
encryption capabilities to their clients.
                           
BAN WOULD GO INTO EFFECT IN 1999

Under this proposed bill, if such encryption services are offered by a 
company like ISP, the service provider must build in a provision to allow
for immediate decryption of any scrambled messages, according to several 
sources that have seen the draft language. The software ban would
go into effect in January 1999.

Reinsch told MSNBC he wasn't sure that Freeh's testimony "accurately 
reflected" the language the White House offered in its technica
drafting for congressional committees. However, he indicated the 
administration was interested in Freeh's proposal.

"I'll be blunt about it," Reinsch said. If such a bill were approved by a 
congressional committee, the administration "would look very seriously at 
it and I imagine we would be very sympathetic to it," he said.

Opponents of proposals to require key for all encryption software blanched 
at Freeh's statements. "This proposal crosses a line that hasn't been 
crossed before in the area of domestic controls on crypto," said Alan
Davidson, policy analyst for the Center for Democracy and Technology. 
Davidson said a government mandate to provide immediate decryption 
capabilities would be like "forcing everyone to live in a glass house."
It also "trashes the Fourth Amendment," which guarantees a right to be 
protected from unlawful search and seizure, Davidson said.

Freeh told the Senate panel Wednesday that he isn't looking to expand law 
enforcement's investigative powers. Rather, he said, he is only looking for 
a "Fourth Amendment that works in the Information Age."
                            
------






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep  5 18:29:47 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:29:47 +0800
Subject: Political News from Wired News
Message-ID: <199709060111.DAA06236@basement.replay.com>



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> 
> it's amazing. in all the blathering by senators etc. over these
> crypto bills (Feinstein, Freeh etc.),
> has *anyone* raised the possibility on the record
> that the key recovery is UNCONSTITUTIONAL?
> 
> maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single*
> reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single*
> senator to bring up that issue?

have you seen any pictures of the concrete pillar that apparently
totally destroyed an automobile built like a tank? does it even have
a single scratch on it?
anybody figure out how a papparazzi scooter managed to get ahead
of a car and zig-zag at 120 miles per hour? anybody figure out
why 'facts' such as these changed back and forth several times when
it became obvious that you could drive a Mercedes semi-truck 
through the holes in the original story?

i agree that there is something weird going on with the reporting of
the mainstream press and their affiliates.
i'm not looking for mountains of negative sensationalism replacing a
balanced perspective, but I have to wonder why nobody is seriously
questioning  the possibilities of the 'dark side' of anti-4-Horsemen 
legislation, or reporting the real details surrounding the sudden death
of a rich Egyptian mobster and the mother of a future King of England.

i am getting a very bad feeling that maybe the level of inside/outside
censorship of the press may be a good indicator, like the Doomsday 
Clock, of how close we are to the day when the Puppet Masters finally
step out from behind their masks.

truthmonger






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep  5 18:55:38 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:55:38 +0800
Subject: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



Yeah, I have a copy of the FBI's "technical assistance"  draft dated late
August. Haven't had time to write about it yet. Party's taking too much
prep time. Maybe I'll type in the highlights tonight or distribute it at
the DC cypherpunks party tomorrow. 

Bottom line: non-GAKd crypto is outlawed after Jan 1, 1999.

-Declan


On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> 
> 
> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
> 
> A radical shift in crypto debate
> 
> Proposed bill outlaws non-crackable crypto products, restrict imports
> 
> By Brock N. Meeks, MSNBC
> 
> WASHINGTON -- The White House would likely be very sympathetic to a
> controversial new bill that would outlaw all encryption software that 
> doesn't allow law enforcement agencies to immediately decode scrambled 
> messages, an administration official told MSNBC.
> 
> The new bill, still in draft form, is quietly circulating among members 
> of the House and Senate. Although the administration hasn't formally 
> endorsed any provisions of the bill, MSNBC has learned that the White 
> House has been providing what is called technical drafting assistance
> to members of Congress writing the bill. William Reinsch, the Commerce 
> Department undersecretary for export administration, confirmed the White 
> House involvement for MSNBC on Thursday night.
> 
> The draft bill was already in the hands of some members of the Senate's 
> Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Regulation when FBI 
> Director Louis Freeh outlined its basic provisions while testifying before
> the panel Wednesday. Freeh said "we would recommend" that legislation be 
> written requiring all encryption software or services made in or imported 
> to the United States to have a feature "which would allow for the immediate, 
> lawful decryption" of any scrambled messages used for illegal purposes or 
> in a national security matter.
>                            
> NATION AT RISK?
> 
> The White House, FBI and intelligence agencies claim that the proliferation 
> of unbreakable encryption products puts the nation at risk. Criminals and 
> terrorists are increasingly using unbreakable encryption products, Freeh
> testified Wednesday. 
> 
> U.S. makers of encryption software claim that any government-mandated decoding 
> features would make their products unacceptable to clients in the global 
> marketplace. The new proposals outlined by Freeh also drew the ire of civil
> liberties groups, which fear that any government controls on encryption 
> products raise serious First Amendment and privacy concerns.
> 
> Placing such government-mandated controls on the domestic use and manufacture 
> of encryption software, as well as on the import of encryption products, 
> stands in marked contrast to current White House crypto policies. Currently,
> the United States places strict regulations on the export of any encryption 
> products that do make decoding keys available to law enforcement agencies. 
> However, the administration has steadfastly maintained throughout the often
> contentious public debate over encryption policies that it would not place 
> any restrictions on the domestic use of encryption software, nor would it
> restrict the import of encryption products. 
> 
> Despite Freeh's testimony and the draft legislation written with White House 
> assistance, Reinsch said the administration's policy on encryption hasn't 
> changed. "I want to emphasize that [in providing drafting assistance] we are
> responding to committee requests," he said. "And those requests have been 
> fairly directive, such as: 'Give us some examples of how we can better 
> accommodate law enforcement needs.' " 
> 
> Currently, the White House is backing an encryption bill in the Senate called 
> the Secure Public Networks Act, also known as S. 909. This bill would 
> encourage the use of and set up guidelines for encryption software products 
> with decoding keys. Under this plan, all coded messages would spin off a 
> decoding key that would be stored with a government-approved third party. 
> Law enforcement agencies, foreign or domestic, would be allowed access to 
> those keys if they obtained a court-ordered warrant. The bill would not 
> restrict or require any encryption software used in the United States, or 
> restrict the import of any foreign crypto products. 
> 
> However, MSNBC has learned that the draft bill now circulating among members 
> of the House and Senate specifically outlaws the "manufacture, distribution 
> or import" of any encryption software product or communication device that 
> does not "allow the immediate decryption" of all scrambled messages or 
> communications "if used for illegal purposes." The bill also targets 
> "network services," such as Internet Service Providers, that provide 
> encryption capabilities to their clients.
>                            
> BAN WOULD GO INTO EFFECT IN 1999
> 
> Under this proposed bill, if such encryption services are offered by a 
> company like ISP, the service provider must build in a provision to allow
> for immediate decryption of any scrambled messages, according to several 
> sources that have seen the draft language. The software ban would
> go into effect in January 1999.
> 
> Reinsch told MSNBC he wasn't sure that Freeh's testimony "accurately 
> reflected" the language the White House offered in its technica
> drafting for congressional committees. However, he indicated the 
> administration was interested in Freeh's proposal.
> 
> "I'll be blunt about it," Reinsch said. If such a bill were approved by a 
> congressional committee, the administration "would look very seriously at 
> it and I imagine we would be very sympathetic to it," he said.
> 
> Opponents of proposals to require key for all encryption software blanched 
> at Freeh's statements. "This proposal crosses a line that hasn't been 
> crossed before in the area of domestic controls on crypto," said Alan
> Davidson, policy analyst for the Center for Democracy and Technology. 
> Davidson said a government mandate to provide immediate decryption 
> capabilities would be like "forcing everyone to live in a glass house."
> It also "trashes the Fourth Amendment," which guarantees a right to be 
> protected from unlawful search and seizure, Davidson said.
> 
> Freeh told the Senate panel Wednesday that he isn't looking to expand law 
> enforcement's investigative powers. Rather, he said, he is only looking for 
> a "Fourth Amendment that works in the Information Age."
>                             
> ------
> 
> 






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep  5 18:59:26 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:59:26 +0800
Subject: Is Diana News?
Message-ID: 




There have been a bunch of messages about this. Some satirical, some
serious. I've avoided any comment (so far as I remember).

But is it news?

I think so.

Not necessarily for Cypherpunks.

But I hear people saying this isn't news, that other things are more
important.

Sure, in some cases. But what is more important this week? News from Mars,
news that Congress is back in session?

Sometimes "personality" stories are more important than "normal event"
stories.

This story involves many interesting issues--freedom of speech, rights of
privacy, the accomplishments of Diana, the issue Toto raised that Diana is
surely a better role model than Diane (Feinstein), the monarchy, the
boycott of tabloids, etc.

No firm conclusions, but I reject completely the idea that routine reports
of Congress being back in session, or that several people were blown up in
Jerusalem, are bigger new stories than this.

This is headed for being the biggest news story of 1997, barring, of
course, an even bigger news story. Get used to it.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep  5 19:12:26 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:12:26 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.(fwd)y
In-Reply-To: <199709060026.UAA19169@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: 



At 5:26 PM -0700 9/5/97, Cypherpunks Maintenance Account wrote:

>Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
>something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
>*final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:
>
>"WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
>story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."

Why not say, "Fuck you."? In other words, "If you report it's happening,
and it doesn't, I guess you'll be shown to be a typical medial fool."

This media-centric bullshit is getting way out of hand.

Even in jest.

--Tim May (No, I don't plan to attend the Bay Area version of this thing)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Fri Sep  5 19:25:47 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:25:47 +0800
Subject: Dianaism Was: Re: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <602230d4ced1068201d1cb54eededabb@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:
>Sean Roach wrote:
>> Anyone care to lay odds as to how soon a religion will start up with the
>> late princess as the main diety?
>> I'm guessing 5 years for the first hard-cores.  And 20 years for
>> international visibility.

>I have already seen one newscast which has predicted that Diana will
>join Elvis as a diety-figurehead.  So, now that we have a King _and_
>a Queen, why don't we start a new nation? They would be the perfect
>titular heads for a Virtual Nation, because their lifestyles would be
>inexpensive for us to maintain, no matter how lavishly we choose to
>treat them.

They'll be lonely if we don't fill in the Pantheon:

God of Messages and Pathways:     Alan M. Turing
God of War:                       William Colby
God of Justice:                   Alfred Nobel
Goddess of Love:                  Muriel Hemingway
God of Vengeance:                 Jim Bell

Presidential Gods:
The Kitchen God:                  Harry S. Truman
God of Mischief and Deception:    Richard Milhous Nixon
God of Laughter and Forgetting:   Ronald Wilson Reagan

Court Jester:                     Jerzy Kosinski

Patron Saint of Lost Causes:      Dorothy Denning

The All Powerful God:             Rover from "The Prisoner"

The Olympians:
John Bonham
Curt Cobain
Jimi Hendrix
Janice Joplin
John Lennon
Jim Morrison

"Oh Lord Turing, please hear my prayer.  I do beseech thee for a one
way function whose inverse is NP complete.  Please do graciously
accept my humble offering: 10109AlanMathisonTuring11cfea22ef8c1166"

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep  5 19:34:36 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:34:36 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday. (fwd)y
In-Reply-To: <199709060026.UAA19169@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: 



At 10:06 pm -0400 on 9/5/97, Tim May wrote:


> Why not say, "Fuck you."?

Welll, if you really insist:

    Fuck you.

    In half.

    With a brick.

In jest, of course...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep  5 19:48:50 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:48:50 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Whoops! My fault. I thought you were and said that to Peter this
morning...

-Declan


On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Meanwhile, we're sitting here watching the Bay Area, and Austin, do
> something, and then Declan and the Washingtoonians do something, but the
> *final* straw came when Peter Wayner calls up and says:
> 
> "WELL???? Are you guys in Boston going to DO something? I'm gonna file a
> story in the Times tomorrow that SAYS you are..."






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep  5 20:02:03 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:02:03 +0800
Subject: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
Message-ID: 



All encryption products distributed in or imported into the U.S. after
January 1, 1999 must have a key escrow backdoor for the government,
according to an FBI-backed proposal circulating on Capitol Hill. The
measure would impose a similar requirement on "public network service
providers" that offer data-scrambling services. FBI Director Louis Freeh
talked about this proposal, without disclosing legislation existed, at a
Senate subcommittee haring on Wednesday.

Domestic use and sale of encryption has never been regulated.

Attached is an excerpt from the draft "Secure Public Networks Act" dated
August 28.

-Declan

-------

	SEC. 105. PUBLIC ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS AND SERVICES

	(a) As of January 1, 1999, public network service
	providers offering encryption products or encryption
	services shall ensure that such products or services
	enable the immediate decryption of communications or
	electronic information encrypted by such products or
	services on the public network, upon receipt of a court
	order, warrant, or certification, pursuant to section
	106, without the knowledge or cooperation of the person
	using such encryption products or services.

	(b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
	person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
	the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
	U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
	used to encrypt communications or electronic
	information, unless that product:

  	 (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
	 third party compatibility or other means, that

	  (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
	  decryption information by an authorized party without
	  the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
	  encryption product; and

	  (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture,
	  distribution, sale, or import, or may be enabled by the
	  purchase or end user; or

	 (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include
	 features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
	 compatibility or other means, that permit immediate
	 decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
	 or cooperation of the person using such encryption
	 product.

	(c) (1) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act,
	the Attorney General shall publish in the Federal
	Register functional criteria for complying with the
	decryption requirements set forth in this section.

	(2) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act, the
	Attorney General shall promulgate procedures by which
	data network service providers sand encryption product
	manufacturers, sellers, re-sellers, distributors, and
	importers may obtain advisory opinions as to whether a
	decryption method will meet the requirements of this
	section.

	(3) Nothing in this Act or any other law shall be
	construed as requiring the implementation of any
	particular decryption method in order to satisfy the
	requirements of paragrpahs (a) or (b) of this section.

-------

MSNBC's Brock Meeks on above FBI proposal & White House support:
  http://www.msnbc.com/news/108020.asp

My report on the September 3 "mandatory key escrow" Senate hearing:
  http://jya.com/declan6.htm

Transcript of FBI director Louis Freeh's remarks at Sep 3 hearing:
  http://jya.com/fbi-gak.txt

Reuters' Aaron Pressman on Commerce Dept backing away from FBI:
  http://www.pathfinder.com/net/latest/RB/1997Sep05/248.html

-------







From tm at dev.null  Fri Sep  5 20:24:31 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:24:31 +0800
Subject: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3410C9CD.4C4D@dev.null>



John Young wrote:
> 
> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> 
> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional
> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.

  Surprise, surprise!
  It's amazing that nobody saw this coming. I guess we were all fools
for trusting the mainstream media to warn us of the possibility of
the government taking this fascist, dictatorial, mind-control action.
  Gee, I sure wish I hadn't turned in all my guns.

TruthMonger






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Fri Sep  5 20:28:51 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:28:51 +0800
Subject: Freeh is Marked for Deletion
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709060326.XAA03786@cti06.citenet.net>




>  Freeh must be removed by any means necessary. His calling for mandatory (or
>  involuntary) key escrow marks him as unworthy of continued tenure. He is
>  marked for deletion.

HOLY DJEEZUUUUSSSSS Tim!

You long for becoming roommate to Jim Bell?

:-)

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From kp at crypt.com  Fri Sep  5 20:34:30 1997
From: kp at crypt.com (Dave K-P)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:34:30 +0800
Subject: Puppet Masters
In-Reply-To: <199709060111.DAA06236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709060725.DAA00192@crypt.com>



> i am getting a very bad feeling that maybe the level of inside/outside
> censorship of the press may be a good indicator, like the Doomsday 
> Clock, of how close we are to the day when the Puppet Masters finally
> step out from behind their masks.

	Puppet Masters don't step out from behind thier masks.  They have
someone else step out for them.

~kp






From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Sep  5 20:57:58 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:57:58 +0800
Subject: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970906034625.26978.qmail@zipcon.net>



Declan writes:

> 	(b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
> 	person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
> 	the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
> 	U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
> 	used to encrypt communications or electronic
> 	information, unless that product:
> 
>   	 (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
> 	 third party compatibility or other means, that
> 
> 	  (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
> 	  decryption information by an authorized party without
> 	  the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
> 	  encryption product; and

This is blatantly unconstitutional and breaks new ground that the
government has never even dared hint at before. 

The true agenda of the GAKers has finally been disclosed to the American
public.

Next they will want copies of all of our house keys for the jackbooted
thugs to hold, and emergency Assault Plungers in all our umbrella stands
ready for the cops to ram up the citizens' assholes. 

This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.

It is them or us.  I pick us. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Fri Sep  5 20:59:57 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:59:57 +0800
Subject: Hey
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970905234916.0088e420@popmail.firn.edu>



At 04:35 PM 9/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>::
>Encrypted: PGP
>
>-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>MessageID: yV9u2hakLFv9/SGjemJH0AuGYsBQ1cOE
>
>hQCMA/HAD1cfk+qpAQQAwuEDcaGfi1QCu84QklmpWe0AtyQUKGvkIuT8cEXt/ePS
>G1QAGQBHNRPvsN92ORDxPY5K+JgeS4b8ZpRJ+C9pSFwtzJXyoSaPSWLVLe//GU4y
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>AY608e0OyKO78dPdEGeRYH5PwW6BLgppULjR17+Puo0ukIqwcItJlYPx7K2AgNtA
>9sDlymr5h+cMky+BbrFWoi8QZEBrHvhXckXuPWHDlrmxTzd362m2R9G3/4TLlMjK
>j6q2TD5DA0CT/g1ETK3J0y+7cFfuGp6oP2PhP27VCBW6maIp1Z35K3yNy7vytrTE
>qDuJtcF2lvDAYKBcKr0lk6fBuGfRRZge3ZlAOgo/t5KPSGou/KlkHb2eR20vWqUM
>Z2xcTkn5Y+ZJsPb/k9sOe8vKGK38IGYZdv2nj3k7MQvCIIuwAc37XIiC53mWAP8V
>mIISGuYa2DgcxkdEy/rW0vd3AbhRzNGHp4u4zpjK/r2kTDGYGBURZFv2dC24KmcT
>sgGYqYhYFY2/xmwiQgNKaRlMgrhRJZ8ytLxSCQts1pZhbImf2BFFBNshSIPUiZIn
>4fEPvD0lgJjC7jkkwAjEfN3E8DSCORs7GzKY1/Psr5ZZkEKVezv2blL+5YjYff+H
>vfqgXkeGKOgXNUT1lNZZWA==
>=wuTx
>-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

Oopssss...

Man, do I feel like a jackass.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
			-U.S. Constitution, Amendment II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep  5 21:04:03 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:04:03 +0800
Subject: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906003958.00849190@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:11 PM -0700 9/5/97, TruthMonger wrote:
>John Young wrote:
>>
>> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
>>
>> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional
>> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
>
>  Surprise, surprise!
>  It's amazing that nobody saw this coming. I guess we were all fools
>for trusting the mainstream media to warn us of the possibility of
>the government taking this fascist, dictatorial, mind-control action.
>  Gee, I sure wish I hadn't turned in all my guns.

Irony aside, some of us saw this coming more than 5 years ago.

As the saying goes, "check the archives."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From mailhost at aol.com  Sat Sep  6 12:08:11 1997
From: mailhost at aol.com (mailhost at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:08:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Your Credit Report
Message-ID: <20098186374.JJX09264@3100fixcredit.com>





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From brianbr at together.net  Fri Sep  5 21:14:36 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:14:36 +0800
Subject: Di and Dodi Run Over A Land Mine
Message-ID: <199709060405.AAA25102@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/5/97 4:54 AM, Toto (toto at sk.sympatico.ca)  passed this wisdom:

 [snip]
> I don't know, I don't care, and it is really none of my business.
>What *is* my business is to view my fellow man/woman and perceive
>if they are lifted up or further downtrodden by their interactions
>with myself and others. I have seen the faces of the AIDS children
>that she touched, when no one else would, and the lepers whom she
>shook hands with, when others were afraid to do so, and I have seen
>the light that she spread among those whom society had cast aside.

  This is the light in which I prefer to remember her .. thankyou for
saying it so nicely.

  [snip]

>  You write that Diana's campaign against the use of land mines is
>an unrealistic attempt to negate the cheap and effective defense
>of the poorer countries. Perhaps what was needed was for her to
>have the input of someone such as yourself who understands the need
>for cheap and effective self-defence, so that she could concentrate
>her efforts on removing landmines that are no longer needed, and
>preventing the dispersal of landmines which are not truly needed 
>for self-defence, but are only serving as 'toys for boys' who want
>to play soldier.

 .. here I can speak with some authority ... having lost a part of my
anatomy to such a device ... for many years I quietly accepted what
had happened to me as a forseeable consequence of having gone off to a
war ... but in correspondance with my US Senator, Patrick Leahy,
another major backer of the anti-landmine effort, I came to realize
that the mines sowed along the trail from Phuc Loc(5) to Phuc Loc(6),
of which I became one victim, could just as easily have maimed/killed
any of the dozens of villagers who plied that trail every day. 

  Further, when I was trained as an infantry officer by the Marine
Corps in the use of mines we were taught to painstakingly prepare map
overlays showing the location of each and every mine ... but when we
got to that tropical SE Asian wonderland ... the way it was done was
to plant em and forget em unless it was in your front yard ... that is
immoral, no discussion! FWIW, my .02!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBDV+MdZgC62U/gIEQJ+EwCeLd9/XBunjjX3LU0TMHHk1IKrgK8AoJjK
6zPkJXIZ0dj8zAMr932m1AMD
=uGTd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
      For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
   "...if you drink much from a bottle marked 'poison,' it is almost
     certain to disagree with you, sooner or later"  -- Lewis Carroll







From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  5 21:23:05 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:23:05 +0800
Subject: Please show me these encryption algorithms
Message-ID: <19970906040906.29100.qmail@hotmail.com>



Does anybody know RC4,RC2,CDMF,MISTY,MULTI2 encryption algorithms?
If you know these encryption algorithms,
Please show me these encryption algorithms.





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From tm at dev.null  Fri Sep  5 21:37:24 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:37:24 +0800
Subject: LYING FUCKS! / Behind the ELECTROMAGNETIC CURTAIN
Message-ID: <3410DBF2.2F9D@dev.null>



To everyone I know:
  I've had enough of the bullshit, mind-control fascism surfacing at
an increasingly fast pace in an assault on freedom and privacy.
  I've also had enough of the constant lies of an established political
power structure which is now so firmly entrenched in the seat of power
that they no longer even bother to tell *_good_* lies.
  The final straw, for me, was the inevitable announcement that anyone
paying the least attention could see coming from a mile away, despite
all of the flag-waving, 'land of the free' speeches, and denials by
those in power of their true intentions in regard to the future of 
free speech, liberty and privacy.

----
5 September 1997, MSNBC:
FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
----

  Accordingly, I am pledging to henceforth exercise my right to free
speech, in my own manner, right up to the time when we all face
imprisonment for not only free speech, but for freedom of thought,
as well.
  My manner is to call a lying fuck a _lying_fuck_; to call a
rat fucker a _rat_fucker_; to call a fucking imbecile a _fucking
_imbecile_; to call a Nazi piece of shit a _Nazi_ _piece_of_shit_.
  In the future, I plan to express myself in a manner which does
not give support to the 'quiet lies' that are increasingly being
told by the mainstream press and a timid public which are either
too tired of fighting the fascists or have too much invested in
the current system to risk rocking the boat by calling for an
end to bullshit, draconian laws, and increasing oppression and
imprisonment of the citizens of what were once free nations.
  I intend to do so in my private emails, my public posts, and
in the editing of news that I forward to others.

e.g.
----
NATION AT RISK?

The Fascist White House, Terrorist FBI and co-conspirator 
intelligence agencies claim that the proliferation of unbreakable 
encryption products puts the nation at risk. Unnamed Criminals and 
Mythical terrorists are increasingly using unbreakable encryption 
products, Lying Fuck Freeh testiLied Wednesday. 
----

  I am forwarding this message to everyone in my email address book
with the suggestion that they consider doing the same, or to take
a similar action which may be more in line with their own character
and predelictions.
  The bottom line:
Our elected legislators, politicians, and public servants are *not*
going to tell us the truth.
The media is *not* going to tell us the truth.
If the citizens don't speak truthfully to one another, then there is
*no* hope of stemming the escalating assaults on privacy and liberty.

As sole member of the TruthMonger Cult of One:
I hereby declare an electronic state of war against the dictatorial,
fascist entities who are attempting to build an ElectroMagnetic
Curtain around an InterNet that served as a truly democratic forum
for Free Netizens until the power structure declared it to be the
forefront of a New World, while eschewing any intentions to bring
it under the thumb of a New World Order.

  I suggest that the Lying Fascist Fucks who are mounting an assault
on the freedom and privacy of their citizens lay in some Electronic
Body Bags.
  Perhaps each truthful word I shoot in their direction will be but
a negligable 'B-B' in reality, but I refuse to refrain from doing
what I can, even if I am wrong about things having reached a stage
where enough people will join in resistance to the assault on
freedom and privacy to bring down the ElectroMagnetic curtain with
a mountain of B-B's.

  I can't stop these dictatorial fascists from telling their lies,
but I *can* still express my view of their crass assault on the
constitutional rights of myself and others.
  I *can* call Louis Freeh, Lying Fuck Freeh.
  I *can* call Bill Clinton, Lying Nazi Schill Clinton.
  I *can* call Dianne Feinstein, Lying Cunt SwineStein.

  I not only *can*, but I *will*.
  I will fight with bytes, even though I know that, ultimately, 
these increasingly violent power mongers will respond with 
bullets if they perceive a great enough threat to risk exposing
their true nature and intentions.
  I believe that I can fire a lot of B-B's at the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain before I 'commit suicide', have a 'tragic accident', or
unwittingly fire one of my electronic B-B's in the direction of
heavily armed, camoflaged secret troops 'defending' the Electronic
Border that the fascists are attempting to build around a formerly
Free InterNet.

  Am I the only one who has noticed that free speech and private
communication on the InterNet posed little 'threat' to society
until the government decided to get increasingly involved?
  Think about it. _Who_is_the_enemy_?
  The Public? The Citizens? I think not...

TruthMonger
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn






From tm at dev.null  Fri Sep  5 21:55:39 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:55:39 +0800
Subject: Amen! / Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
In-Reply-To: <19970906034625.26978.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3410DE53.14EB@dev.null>



Mike Duvos wrote:

> This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.
> 
> It is them or us.  I pick us.

  I have ordered a semi-automatic keyboard and a Telsa snarf-barrier.

TruthMonger







From tm at dev.null  Fri Sep  5 22:22:17 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:22:17 +0800
Subject: "YOU CAN'T *_HANDLE_* THE TRUTH!" / Re: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3410E60C.22C5@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Last I checked, I'm part of the mainstream media. I've been warning of
> this for the last year, if not longer.

  I truly appreciate the effort you have made to shine some light
on the realities and dangers of the direction that government is
moving society in.
  However, I would suggest that you read my "LYING FUCKS!" post in
order to pick up a few pointers on how to increase the effectiveness
of your messages to the public.
  If your 'Truth in Language' skills are somewhat lacking, then I 
would be happy to tutor you, with the goal of increasing your
communications skills to encompass the ability to go beyond the
ear-wax barrier to truth. { Being blessed with Tourette Syndrome,
I am fully qualified in this area. }

  If you just once post a Netly News article which refers to "Lying
Fuck Freeh," then I would be happy to stop spamming your employers
with suggestions that they change the motto of "Time Magazine" to:
"YOU CAN'T *_HANDLE_* THE TRUTH!"

xoxoxo,
TruthToto






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep  5 22:32:04 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:32:04 +0800
Subject: New GAK Bill
In-Reply-To: <3410C9CD.4C4D@dev.null>
Message-ID: 



Last I checked, I'm part of the mainstream media. I've been warning of
this for the last year, if not longer.

-Declan

On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> > 
> > 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> > 
> > FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional
> > hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.
> 
>   Surprise, surprise!
>   It's amazing that nobody saw this coming. I guess we were all fools
> for trusting the mainstream media to warn us of the possibility of
> the government taking this fascist, dictatorial, mind-control action.
>   Gee, I sure wish I hadn't turned in all my guns.
> 
> TruthMonger
> 
> 






From tm at dev.null  Fri Sep  5 22:50:31 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:50:31 +0800
Subject: Starting Date of the Digital Revolution
Message-ID: <3410EB54.4A01@dev.null>



Friday, September 05, 1997






From attila at hun.org  Fri Sep  5 23:00:16 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:00:16 +0800
Subject: Is Diana News?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709060550.XAA07635@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970905:1853 
    Tim May  expostulated:

+This is headed for being the biggest news story of 1997, barring, of
+course, an even bigger news story. Get used to it.

+--Tim May

    yeah, but it does not make Diana any less of an airhead who could
    not take the fire in the kitchen.  Diana expected to be Queen on
    _her_ terms and crumpled.

    they may claim she saved the monarchy by her open, loving self. No,
    she trivialized the monarchy with her problems and hung it out to
    dry --looking exactly as it is/was: another average dysfunctional
    family.

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep  5 23:09:37 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:09:37 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching you watch Farenheit 451
In-Reply-To: <199709041247.IAA03203@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970905175611.0069535c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 08:47 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
>this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
>relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
>to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 

BTW, the last copy of F451 I saw really irked me - the cover had
explanatory notes like "Fahrenheit 451, the temperature that books burn!"
and stuff about firemen whose job is setting fires.  
Are today's kids dumbing down, or less literate, or is it just enough
longer since the book was written that publishers need to try harder to 
get people to read it?








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep  5 23:10:52 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:10:52 +0800
Subject: Administration backs away from FBI on crypto, by  A.Pressman (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970905173751.0069535c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 09:07 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>>   "What he proposed was not the administration's policy," Commerce

>Of course it isn't. Not yet. This is called playing "good cop, bad cop".

Or as one of Stallone's characters put it "Bad cop, WORSE cop!"  :-)








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep  5 23:11:34 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:11:34 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970905180150.0069535c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 09:53 AM 9/4/97 -0400, stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com wrote:
>Interesting. In NJ, where I have had the misfortune of living, "being able
>to face your accuser" means that if the cop doesn't show you have to
>reschedule and keep rescheduling until he _does_ show. For this reason, I
>had assumed that the "no cop, no case" clause was simply hopeful urban
>legend.

Whether they get to reschedule may depend on factors you can control;
get some professional advice if this happens to you often :-)
The last time I had the opportunity to watch a NJ courtroom for a while,
the cops and prosecutors did have their act together.  The cop's 
testimony started out with being asked what he did that morning
"Calibrated my radar gun" "What model is it?"... "What steps did you
follow?"...

>If nothing else, we live in a "traffic police state".

Unfortunately, the one time I got stopped at a papers-in-order stop
and the cops asked me where I was going, I had a burned out tail light,
so I decided not to give the cops the answers they deserved.
"America, but I seem to have made a wrong turn and ended up here...."







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Sep  6 00:12:20 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:12:20 +0800
Subject: Mars Rover Fraud
Message-ID: <199709060653.IAA08735@basement.replay.com>



I happened across a web site, http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/I.Castelijn/
that promised to reveal the _real_ pictures from the Mars Rover, instead
of the _fake_ ones released to the public.
Since I found the web site regarding the "faking" of the Apollo moon
landings amusing, though totally unbelievable, I decided to view the
claimed Mars Rover fakery conspiracy theory, as well.

  Imagine my amazement when one of the claimed _real_ pictures contained
a view of a wristwatch that I had lost in the Desert outside of Tucson
a few years ago. Even the inscription from my mother was still legible!

I'm warning the spooks on this list that if I don't get my wristwatch
back, I'm going to blow the lid off of their whole Mars Rover scam
in Smile magazine. I'm serious!

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
"I AM a number!  I am a free man!"

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   This message is copyrighted under the auspices of the Electronic
   Forgery Foundation. However, it was probably written by the person
   whose name it appears to be forged under. Confusing, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From attila at hun.org  Sat Sep  6 00:13:07 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:13:07 +0800
Subject: Amen! / Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
In-Reply-To: <3410DE53.14EB@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709060645.AAA09089@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970905:2238 
    TruthMonger  expostulated:

+Mike Duvos wrote:

+> This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.
+> 
+> It is them or us.  I pick us.

+  I have ordered a semi-automatic keyboard and a Telsa snarf-barrier.

+TruthMonger

    TS qualified, eh?  a Telsa  snarf-barrier?  now you've done it.

    yes, it is war.

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
        --Christian Worley
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
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MgocC2e/P+Ui/Ckd9EyCZ7X+KtB2IHTwQ5sCpaILm/O3GA0rDGM3of6Z7Laf5hoi
zigBHe7GvpqUT/+W8QGTNoVV58K6DtT/sM+8UX5APNndnL6zSza9TogI1ak5dfWq
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From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  6 00:48:16 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:48:16 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
Message-ID: <19970906073720.3185.qmail@hotmail.com>



GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem)
GCC uses the newest chaos logic and is conventional cryptosystem stream 
cipher
encryption. It is high speed and allows variable-length keys, making it 
very
reliable and suitable for use in multimedia.

http://www.iisi.co.jp/reserch/GCC-over.htm


Chaos InforGuard
GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem) security application.
High speed,variable-length keys,high reliability,and user friendliness 
allow you
to easily encrypt an entire harddisc.Can be used with Windows3.1 & 
Windows95.

http://www.iisi.co.jp/vcs/software/infoguard-e1621.html


Chaos-mail
Internet Mailer Using Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
Chaos-mail is a cryptosystem mailer for use on Windows95,which using GCC 
and Chaos
MAM, gives you the ability to encrypt/decrypt and verify mail. 
Chaos-mail is a
cryptosystem mailer for user on Windows 95 which, using GCC and Chaos 
MAM, gives
you the ability to encrypt, decrypt, and verify mail. Not only is it 
fast,
reliable, and user-friendly, but it is also very suitable for multimedia 
because
of its non-biased treatment of data.

http://www.iisi.co.jp/vcs/software/chaosmail-e.htm



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From amp at pobox.com  Sat Sep  6 01:25:38 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:25:38 +0800
Subject: Is Diana News?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



=snip=

> This is headed for being the biggest news story of 1997, barring, of
> course, an even bigger news story. Get used to it.
> 
> --Tim May

You mean like Mother Theresa dying?

My grandmother used to say such things happen in triplets. Wonder who's 
next?

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/06/97
Time: 03:18:50
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i



To: cyberia-l at listserv.aol.com
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:01:59 -0400
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" 
              
Subject:      Re: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI


This is shocking.

For a legal analysis of why mandatory domestic key escrow would 
not (most likely) be constitutional for non-commercial messages, 
see parts III & IV of:

     http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin at law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's hot here.

----------

Here's an excerpt from the June version of the Secure Public
Networks Act (McCain-Kerrey Bill S.909), the revised draft bill 
now being circulated that Declan quoted:

TITLE I - DOMESTIC USES OF ENCRYPTION
�
SEC. 101. LAWFUL USE OF ENCRYPTION.
 
Except as otherwise provided by this Act or otherwise provided by law, 
it shall be lawful for any person within any State to use any encryption, 
regardless of encryption algorithm selected, encryption key length 
chosen, or implementation technique or medium used.
�
SEC. 102. PROHIBITION ON MANDATORY THIRD PARTY ESCROW 
OF KEYS USED FOR ENCRYPTION OF CERTAIN COMMUNICATIONS.

Neither the Federal Government nor a State may require the escrow of 
an encryption key with a third party in the case of an encryption key 
used solely to encrypt communications between private persons within 
the United States.
�
SEC. 103. VOLUNTARY PRIVATE SECTOR PARTICIPATION IN KEY
MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE.

The participation of the private persons in the key management 
infrastructure enabled by this Act is voluntary.

----------

For full text of the June version:

     http://jya.com/s909.htm







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Sep  6 06:58:00 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 21:58:00 +0800
Subject: DCSB: Boston D-H expiration Party at Doyles on Saturday.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:38 pm -0400 on 9/5/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> Whoops! My fault. I thought you were and said that to Peter this
> morning...

That's okay, so did we. :-).

Peter's call mostly just forced the issue and made me get off the dime to
make something we'd been talking about. I suppose if anyone else had called
me the same thing would have happened.

Life imitates art imitating life, I guess.

In hindsight, I think having a beer at Doyle's is a much better way to do
this, anyway.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From brianbr at together.net  Sat Sep  6 07:43:39 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:43:39 +0800
Subject: New GAK Bill
Message-ID: <199709061414.KAA14770@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/6/97 9:08 AM, John Young (jya at pipeline.com)  passed this wisdom:

>For a legal analysis of why mandatory domestic key escrow would 
>not (most likely) be constitutional for non-commercial messages, 
>see parts III & IV of:

  What I would like to know is how they can justify imposing it on
messages between individuals and corporations or corporations to
corporations. It also occurs to me that if such communications were
within state boundries might not that further restrict where they can
put their nose? In they end they most likely will do as they please,
but usually they try to start with some semblance of legal
constitutional foundation ... this time they seem to have gone for the
throat in the first inning, the Constitution be damned ...

  I see, despite the wording of the McCain-Kerry, that after they have
that in place, they will then coming whining that because the private
sector is excluded that all these bad people are doing an endrun, so
we need to bring them in under the umbrella of GAK ...  ... 'up
the revolution!'


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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 "It would take an archimedean fulcrum to raise you to the level of
  total depravity" --Thomas E. Carney, ca. 1920







From Syniker at aol.com  Sat Sep  6 08:00:28 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:00:28 +0800
Subject: LYING FUCKS! / Behind the ELECTROMAGNETIC CURTAIN
Message-ID: <970906104600_-1736182624@emout18.mail.aol.com>



alright... i finally figured a way around ctrl-alt-delete on my
aol account here, so here is my first post...
bear with an old fart, who is trying to learn encryption... and who when
he does, will pass it along to whoever he can...

yes -- we need to do ALL these things... but we need to do it ...
ENCRYPTED... by as many as possible... as SOON as possible...

the thing that is missing here -- to beat freeh and the other freaks...
is that PGP -- or whatever -- must be POPULARIZED -- and by
that, i mean -- the 'learning and doing' -- an encrypted email...
must be made easy enough -- so that the average aol user...
will -- FIRST -- think it's something they should have and use...
and SECOND ... they'll have a way they can use it quickly and easily...

figure it this way -- if you could get ALL nine million aol users....
to send an encrypted email -- on the SAME day .... to everyone
in gov that says FUCK OFF -- NO WAY MY KEY....
what the fuck is the gov gonna do about it??????

as in the internet at large, and the WWW -- it is the sheer number of
us 'users' ... that is scaring shit out of govs everywhere...

but right now -- they have a big, big advantage.....
they are using the time-honored principle of 'divide-and-conquer' ...
to extreme advantage -- and it is one that we can take from them
with a little thought, organization, and planning.......

the fight against CDA was greatly helped with the co-operative
'black-out' pages.... and that's the general idea....

whoever can write an icon-based gui -- point and click -- that will
encrypt and send an email.... and includes an user friendly system
for email spam filters......... gee -- could make a small fortune...
[they are using 'spam' as a backdoor to GAK]

maybe it's already been done? -- I've got eudora lite w/pgp 
on board -- but no time to try it out yet.....

anyways -- dammit -- the key to this fight is in NUMBERS .......

if I was even forty or so -- I'd try it myself....
it's REAL important.......

ldm






From Syniker at aol.com  Sat Sep  6 08:07:12 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:07:12 +0800
Subject: Political News from Wired News
Message-ID: <970906105358_284527778@emout18.mail.aol.com>



In a message dated 97-09-06 07:15:18 EDT, vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z.
Nuri) writes:

<< maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single* 
 reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single* 
 senator to bring up that issue? >>

me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
and where's all the 'censorship' people????
it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
how can we all have wet powder at the same time?

is Leahy saying anything? .... i'll find his site and see.....

ldm






From phoenix at cutey.com  Sat Sep  6 09:18:44 1997
From: phoenix at cutey.com (Irwan Hadi)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:18:44 +0800
Subject: Please show me these encryption algorithms
In-Reply-To: <19970906040906.29100.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970906220951.04eec26c@mail.bit.net.id>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 21:09 05/09/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Does anybody know RC4,RC2,CDMF,MISTY,MULTI2 encryption algorithms?
>If you know these encryption algorithms,
>Please show me these encryption algorithms.
I think better for you if you go to http://www.pgpi.com
There you can search and find some documentations about it.
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From phoenix at cutey.com  Sat Sep  6 09:18:48 1997
From: phoenix at cutey.com (Irwan Hadi)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:18:48 +0800
Subject: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
In-Reply-To: <2C5khz1Qq/5Whpq4Zl9wkQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970906213620.04c47ccc@mail.bit.net.id>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 17:31 05/09/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>MessageID: od2CIT3fELE7K6bkIkKGJBj0MPUJ2TT8
>
>hQCMA6ozRjzmqceZAQQAh02x0Dxer5vzZiSJ+v7bnMZQdgp425z5OH0NF/f/mXXc
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>BAH3CFNKcmYjf+VtpjAVOpDNM/PMm1e6m33rZ01Sq6pXC0TTabCf7hkWscet0PCL
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>CarVigVaRh6tCgh0jub7CHuDFg==
>=Q9+G
>-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
>

Hey if you want really to crack the message, GIVE US YOUR Public key, 
which use to encrypt it, from it. we can calculate the factor and 
open it.

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Hc7yhtsdpZpv6sbhqyVk9ok=
=byDp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From declan at well.com  Sat Sep  6 09:24:34 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:24:34 +0800
Subject: CDT on "useless crypto legislation"
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:53:34 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger 
To: declan at well.com, tbetz at pobox.com
Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Useless Crypto Legislation -- NYT reference (Was: Radical Crypto

At 12:57 AM -0400 9/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> This is a surprise?
>>
>> To whom?
>
>To be fair, I was going through my crypto-history this evening and noted
>Brock wrote about a similar proposal two and a half years ago... Hardly a
>surprise to any of us.

Not a surprise in the sense that we all knew the FBI would propose
something like this sooner or later. None-the-less, this is a significant
new threat and it would be a very very dangerous for us to underestimate it.

The House Intelligence and National Security Committees are voting on SAFE
next week.  The FBI's draft is no doubt part of the Administration's effort
to gut the bill.  We should expect that this language will be offered at
one or both of those committee votes, and that it stands a good chance of
being adopted.

That sets up an all out fight on the House floor, and a very tough fight.
The debate has changed -- it's now about defeating mandatory key recovery.

VTW and CDT have issued an ALERT and are urging Internet users to contact
their Representatives on the Intelligence and National Security Committees.
Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt for details.

Kudos to Brock for a great piece.

Jonah


  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151


http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/









From declan at well.com  Sat Sep  6 09:37:10 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:37:10 +0800
Subject: Crypto Hearings
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906161132.006eb860@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



In my post "Mandatory key escrow bill text" yesterday evening I included a
URL to a Reuters dispatch about the SAFE hearing on Sep 4. I also
forwarded the article to f-c, not sure about cypherpunks. 

The Sep 4 SAFE hearing seems to have been much more balanced than the
Senate one the day before. I don't have a transcript of it, though. 

Beware the National Security committee markup and vote on SAFE next week.
Mandatory key escrow is only one card the government has to play.

-Declan



On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> Declan, or anyone, are there any transcipts of this SAFE hearing,
> or news reports, or other documents:
> 
> September 4, 1997
> 
> SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION ACT
> 
> Committee on Commerce: Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and 
> Consumer Protection held a hearing on H.R. 695, Security and Freedom 
> Through encryption (SAFE) Act. Testimony was heard from Representatives 
> Goodlatte and Lofgren; William P. Cowell, Deputy Director, NSA, 
> Department of Defense; William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary, Export 
> Administration, Department of Commerce; Robert S. Litt, Deputy 
> Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of Justice; 
> and public witnesses.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> And for these of the coming week:
> 
> Congressional Record: September 5, 1997 (Digest):
>  
>                       CONGRESSIONAL PROGRAM AHEAD
> 
>                   Week of September 8 through 13, 1997
> 
> [Excerpts]
>                            House Committees
> 
>   Committee on National Security, September 9, to markup H.R. 695, 
> Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act, 1 p.m., 2118 
> Rayburn.
> 
>   Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, September 9, 
> executive, hearing on Encryption legislation, 10 a.m., H-405 
> Capitol.
>   September 11, executive, to markup Encryption legislation, 10 
> a.m., H-405 Capitol.
> 
>   Committee on Science, September 10, hearing on Next Generation 
> Internet Initiative, 10 a.m., 2318 Rayburn.
> 
>   September 11, Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property, 
> hearing on H.R. 2265, No Electronic Theft (NET) Act, and also on 
> electronic copyright piracy, 10 a.m., 2237 Rayburn.
> 
>   September 11, Subcommittee on Crime, hearing regarding cellular 
> telephone fraud, 9:30 a.m., 2141 Rayburn.
> 
>                            Senate Committees
> 
>   Select Committee on Intelligence: September 10, to hold a closed 
> briefing on intelligence matters, 2:30 p.m., SH-219.
> 
>   Committee on Labor and Human Resources: September 11, to hold 
> hearings to examine the confidentiality of medical information, 10 
> a.m., SD-430.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep  6 09:39:41 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:39:41 +0800
Subject: Crypto Hearings
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906161132.006eb860@pop.pipeline.com>



Declan, or anyone, are there any transcipts of this SAFE hearing,
or news reports, or other documents:

September 4, 1997

SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION ACT

Committee on Commerce: Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and 
Consumer Protection held a hearing on H.R. 695, Security and Freedom 
Through encryption (SAFE) Act. Testimony was heard from Representatives 
Goodlatte and Lofgren; William P. Cowell, Deputy Director, NSA, 
Department of Defense; William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary, Export 
Administration, Department of Commerce; Robert S. Litt, Deputy 
Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of Justice; 
and public witnesses.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And for these of the coming week:

Congressional Record: September 5, 1997 (Digest):
 
                      CONGRESSIONAL PROGRAM AHEAD

                  Week of September 8 through 13, 1997

[Excerpts]
                           House Committees

  Committee on National Security, September 9, to markup H.R. 695, 
Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act, 1 p.m., 2118 
Rayburn.

  Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, September 9, 
executive, hearing on Encryption legislation, 10 a.m., H-405 
Capitol.
  September 11, executive, to markup Encryption legislation, 10 
a.m., H-405 Capitol.

  Committee on Science, September 10, hearing on Next Generation 
Internet Initiative, 10 a.m., 2318 Rayburn.

  September 11, Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property, 
hearing on H.R. 2265, No Electronic Theft (NET) Act, and also on 
electronic copyright piracy, 10 a.m., 2237 Rayburn.

  September 11, Subcommittee on Crime, hearing regarding cellular 
telephone fraud, 9:30 a.m., 2141 Rayburn.

                           Senate Committees

  Select Committee on Intelligence: September 10, to hold a closed 
briefing on intelligence matters, 2:30 p.m., SH-219.

  Committee on Labor and Human Resources: September 11, to hold 
hearings to examine the confidentiality of medical information, 10 
a.m., SD-430.









From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep  6 09:51:18 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:51:18 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: <970906105358_284527778@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:54 AM -0700 9/6/97, Syniker at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-06 07:15:18 EDT, vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z.
>Nuri) writes:
>
><< maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single*
> reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single*
> senator to bring up that issue? >>
>
>me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
>and where's all the 'censorship' people????
>it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
>the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
>how can we all have wet powder at the same time?

I didn't see Detweiler's original message ('til just now), but I think this
is wrong, the "I haven't seen a *single*  reference" (to the
constitutionality of mandatory key escrow).

In some of the accounts of the Freeh-Feinstein-etc. colloquy, there were
mentions that mandatory key escrow probably would be desirable, but
probably not be possible. (I took this to mean they, including Freeh,
recognized it would be unconstitutional).

Of course, then the draft text of the GAK bill floated by the next day, and
it of course contained no references to constitutionality (not
surprisingly, as draft bills are not self-analyses).

Despite my cynicism, I'd expect the courts to issue an immediate stay on
enforcement on such a law, as happened with the CDA. With probably an
expedited hearing before the Supreme Court. As so many have noted, it seems
to be a slam dunk infringement on the right to speak freely and in whatever
language one wishes. And some 4th and 5th and other involvements.

It may be a stalking horse. A threat. Designed to force a compromise. "If
you don't pass McCain-Kerrey, this is what you'll get."

A helluva way to run a country, er, a world.

But look on the bright side: the militias and other patriot groups are
getting a huge bounce out of this. Stay far away from the nests of vipers.
Jefferson's wisdom that we need a revolution every generation or so is
apt...though it's been about 180 years too long.

Now even those, like Sternlight, who claimed the government would never
require key escrow, have to admit we were right all along.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep  6 10:01:20 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:01:20 +0800
Subject: Cyber Threat Fud
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906163543.006eb860@pop.pipeline.com>



WaPo mocks today a prez panel's gurglng for a $1B 
"cyber security" cleaver to lop-hand the world's 
HRH Harry-Hackers:

   http://jya.com/pccipower.htm

Read how 3xlegal-limit limo-liz-NSA hot-wires dire 
Di-car-alarms, pillar plow not, how to shuck for 
xtra bux spying foes inside your Net warfare.






From scannmann at nevwest.com  Sun Sep  7 01:05:52 1997
From: scannmann at nevwest.com (scannmann at nevwest.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Money, Sex, Technology and Home Bus
Message-ID: <199709070804.BAA08120@desertinn.nevwest.com>


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From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Sep  6 10:52:42 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:52:42 +0800
Subject: Is Diana News?
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
> There have been a bunch of messages about this. Some satirical, some
> serious. I've avoided any comment (so far as I remember).
> But is it news?
> I think so.
> Not necessarily for Cypherpunks....

> This story involves many interesting issues--freedom of speech,
> rights of privacy, the accomplishments of Diana, the issue Toto
> raised that Diana is surely a better role model than Diane
> (Feinstein), the monarchy, the boycott of tabloids, etc.

I would go farther than Tim on this one.  We Cypherpunks should
concern ourselves with the means traditionally and currently used to
maintain social order.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep  6 10:57:32 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:57:32 +0800
Subject: Excerpts from Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #978
In-Reply-To: <199709060107.TAA25737@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <199709061745.NAA10147@cti06.citenet.net>



On  5 Sep 97 at 19:07, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote:


------ Forwarded message ---------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:19 -0600 
From: Karl Schrader  
Subject: Bill C-95

Re.: recent amendment to Criminal Code, Bill C-95
--------------------------------------------------------------
Did any legal expert analyse the recent amendment to the
Criminal Code regarding  the mere membership in an organization
consisting of more than 5 people which imposes a penalty in prison
from 5 to 14 years if any mischief is even mentioned?

This amendment is aimed at the biker gangs, however, the way it
is worded, it can be applied to any group, be they environmenta-
lists, unionists, recreational firearms owners, birdwatchers or even
stampcollectors where the mere mentioning of mischief is ground
enough to face 5-14 years in jail.

This development here in Canada is truly frightening and is remi-
niscent of a movie called "Judgement at Nuremburg" with Spencer
Tracey and Burt Lancaster, where Burt Lancaster played a
German Judge under Hitler, who applied all kinds of  laws, created
by the Nazis, which were clearly against common sense and
human values and utterly repressive. These laws were pushed
through the German puppet parliament by the then party in
power. We are all aware of what happened in the end to this
regime. Several thousand Canadians, however, had to make the
supreme sacrifice to eliminate this evil and now it rears it's ugly
head here in Canada .

This amendment was the subject of a radio interview this morning
with a defence lawyer on CBC 2. The lawyer was utterly shocked
at what can be done with this legislation and strongly expected a
charter challenge. Unfortunately this will require again enormous
amounts of funds to be wasted in a completely unproductive and
wasteful manner. Why are we constantly running up against laws
which have to be challenged  ?  Why can the new laws not be
drafted in a way that they are charterproof ? Just imagine if we
did not even have the Charter. The people who are drafting the
laws and are getting paid good salaries can not all be idiots ?
And what about the parliamentarians who pass these laws ?

One does not need a gun to destroy a human life, all that is
needed is a repressive law. Let someone with a criminal record
just try to get a job when he comes out of jail.

"" If it saves only one life !" (Wendy C.....)

FOCUS: If 97% of Canadians are being pushed around by 3%,
              there is something seriously wrong !!

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Sep  6 10:58:07 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:58:07 +0800
Subject: It's Now or Never
Message-ID: 



> 5 September 1997, MSNBC:
> FBI Director Louis Freeh floats a new proposal at a congressional 
> hearing to outlaw non-breakable crypto products.

  We have already been declared 'Future Outlaws' by one of the major
figureheads of the secret government.
  I am not waiting until 1999 to 'officially' become an outlaw. I am
starting today.
  If we have learned but one from our journey to this point in time,
it should be that by the time it's 'official', it's too late...

TheLastCanadianOutlaw






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep  6 10:58:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:58:44 +0800
Subject: Democracy is the true enemy, and anarchists fight the true enemy
In-Reply-To: <199709060107.TAA25737@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: 



At 11:42 AM -0700 9/6/97, jf_avon at citenet.net wrote:
>On  5 Sep 97 at 19:07, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote:
>------ Forwarded message ---------
>Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:19 -0600
>From: Karl Schrader 
>Subject: Bill C-95
>
>Re.: recent amendment to Criminal Code, Bill C-95
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Did any legal expert analyse the recent amendment to the
>Criminal Code regarding  the mere membership in an organization
>consisting of more than 5 people which imposes a penalty in prison
>from 5 to 14 years if any mischief is even mentioned?
>
>This amendment is aimed at the biker gangs, however, the way it
>is worded, it can be applied to any group, be they environmenta-
>lists, unionists, recreational firearms owners, birdwatchers or even
>stampcollectors where the mere mentioning of mischief is ground
>enough to face 5-14 years in jail.

The United States does not yet have anything quite this repugnant, though
I'm sure Janet Reno, Louis Freeh, and William Clinton are working on a
draft of a bill to do something similar.

The Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995, though apparently not being used in any
significant way (yet), would have done some of the same sorts of things. If
an organization was declared to be a terrorist-supporting organization,
various sanctions would have applied to those who contributed money or
certain other types of aid to such organizations. As others have noted, the
Bureau of Thought Crimes has not yet issued a list of which organizations
are considered terrorist.

(One of my fondest hopes is that the Cypherpunks group makes this list. I'm
hoping that enough support of various types provided to freedom fighters in
the ZOG sections of Palestine will get us on this list. I'm itching for a
confrontation with the jack-booted thugs, as you may know.)

>FOCUS: If 97% of Canadians are being pushed around by 3%,
>              there is something seriously wrong !!

Be very, very, very careful of this sort of "democracy" emphasis, as it is
quite likely that the "majority of the sheeple" support the disarming of
Canadian citizens and the crackdown on "gangs and other scum organizations"
by the Mounties.

Never place any faith in democracy. The sheeple will eventually vote to
have their liberties taken away for their own good. Espeically the
liberties of others.

Democracy is the true enemy. Anarchists fight the true enemy.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  6 11:21:45 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:21:45 +0800
Subject: Democracy is the true enemy, and anarchists fight the true enemy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709061824.NAA23842@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:53:57 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Democracy is the true enemy, and anarchists fight the true enemy

> Democracy is the true enemy. Anarchists fight the true enemy.

Oh pooh. Spare us the spin doctor diatribe...

Anarchist are interested in protecting only their own person and
possessions over and above all other factors. Furthermore, it in no way
protects from oppression at the individual or social level. The only thing
it does is guarantee that I will have to spend a great deal of my income
on protection, most folks have something better to do with their time than
participate in a system that believes the height of personal achievment is
to sit around and stroke your gun looking for trespassers on their property.
Try explaining how an anarchy is going to better protect my right to free
speech or the economic and social stability required to carry on a business?

Democracy <> Mob Rule

Something you just don't seem to get.

A good measure of the oppressive level in a given government is to examine
who owns property versus who manages it.

Type:                            Owner:             Manager:

Communism                        Govt.              Govt.

Fascist                          Indiv.             Govt.

Democracy                        Indiv. <> Shared   Indiv. <> Shared

Anarchy                          N/A                N/A

Changes in this relationship seem to be a good measure. For example consider
the level of change in ownership rights before and after the changes in the
confiscation laws. If one thinks of speech as a commodity this also holds.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  6 11:54:27 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:54:27 +0800
Subject: New Contact Info... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709061855.NAA23960@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From ravage at ssz.com Sat Sep  6 13:51:44 1997
From: Jim Choate 
Message-Id: <199709061851.NAA23913 at einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: New Contact Info...
To: users at ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:51:37 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2924      



             "Reality is observer dependant"
                              \
                                \   \\/////
                                    |     | 
                                    (.) (.)
      ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo==========================             

                                  James Choate

         Tivoli Systems, Inc.                   The Armadillo Group
         Senior Support Engineer                SOHO - Internet - Technology

         9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North    608 E. 48th.
         Suite 500                              Austin, TX  78751  
         Austin, TX 78759

         Email: jchoate at tivoli.com              Email: ravage at ssz.com
         Phone: 512-436-8893                    Phone: 512-451-7087
         Fax:   512-345-2784                    Fax:   n/a
         WWW:   www.tivoli.com                  WWW:   www.ssz.com
         Modem: n/a                             Modem: 512-451-7009
         Pager: 888-902-7999                    Pager: n/a
         Cellular: n/a                          Cellular: n/a

      ===================================================================

         Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make
                          no law..." & What happened to the 9th &
                          10th Amendments?

         Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine,
                                 that God is not seperate but totaly
                                 identified with the cosmos, and that
                                 God does not possess personality or
                                 transcendence.

         Favorite Cartoon - Danger Mouse & Mighty Mouse (the original)

      ===================================================================


            The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
            started, and to know the place for the first time.

                                                 T.S. Eliot

      ===================================================================

                            Adopt, adapt, improvise!

                                                  Anonymous

      ===================================================================

            For a succesful technology, reality must take precedence
            over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.

                                               Richard Feynman

      ===================================================================

            Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the
            government of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with
            the government of others? Or have we found angels in the
            forms of kings to govern him?  Let history answer this
            question.

                             Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Sat Sep  6 12:01:09 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 03:01:09 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709061848.OAA16428@upaya.multiverse.com>




I am not sure how serious the proposed FBI-backed bill is.  It may
just be intended as a bargaining chip.  Or perhaps its sponsors are
as clueless about contitutional law as they are about cryptography and
how computers work.

It is conceivable that the courts might uphold (a carefully drafted)
law regulating the _use_ of cryptographic software, but the proposed
bill does not do that.  Instead it provides:

        (b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
        person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
        the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
        U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
        used to encrypt communications or electronic
        information, unless that product:

         (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
         third party compatibility or other means, that

          (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
          decryption information by an authorized party without
          the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
          encryption product; and

          (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture,
          distribution, sale, or import, or may be enabled by the
          purchase or end user; or

         (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include
         features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
         compatibility or other means, that permit immediate
         decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
         or cooperation of the person using such encryption
         product.
 
But notice that the ``products'' that are described here are actually
software, are computer programs.  (I suppose that some products could
be physical devices with the programs hard-wired or in firmware, and
to the extent that there are such devices the following analysis may
not be applicable.)

Now, although it is possible that Judge Freeh and Senator Feinstein are
not aware of the fact, computer programs are written and published, and
they certainly are not ``manufactured'' in any accepted meaning of that
word, and their writing and publication is---as Judge Patel just held
once again---protected by the First Amendment to the United States
Constitution like any other writing or publication.  It may, as I said,
be possible under the Constitution to regulate the use of cryptographic
software, but to forbid the publication (distribution, sale, or import)
of software because its content is unpleasing to the government is a
blatant violation of the First Amendment.

Yet the draftsmen of the Bill do not purport to regulate the use of
cryptographic software, they only purport to forbid its publication.

Which I find strange.

What I also find strange is that the ardent opponents of the CDA do
not seem much disturbed by such a proposed violation of the First
Amendment, or by the present constitutional violations embodied in the
``export'' regulations on encrption software that are being challenged
in the _Bernstein_ and _Junger_ cases.  Somehow those who care about
the right of programmers to express their ideas and to publish the 
software that they write have failed miserably in explaining to the
public, including those organizations that have traditionally been
concerned with protecting civil liberties, that programs are written
and published like any other text.

Part of the problem may be that those who publish software
commercially would rather be thought of---and regulated
as---manufacturers.  The last thing that they want is for people to
start claiming a first amendment right to read their programms and to
copy the ideas, or criticize the expression of the ideas, that are
buried there.  To the software moguls ``free speech'' must sound an 
awful lot like ``free software''.  And, however distasteful they may
find the proposed legislation, it at least has the virtue of making it 
illegal to import or distribute Linux.  And the nice thing about 
regulations of the sort proposed is that they raise insurmountable
barriers for any competitor who hopes to enter the market place for
computer software.

Another reason that there may not be so much concern among traditional
civil libertarians about the First Amendment implications of this
proposed crypto legislation or of the export regulations on encryption
software is that---as hard as it may be for the denizens of this list
to comprehend---they are simply not interested in cryptography.

But the constitutional issues raised by the proposed bill and the
export regulations on cryptographic software implicate all software,
not just encryption software.  For whatever else it may be, all
software is functional, and the government's argument comes down to
the claim that they can censor software because it is functional and
that ``functionality'' is not protected by the First Amendment.  Thus,
according to the arguments that have been made by the President
himself, it would be perfectly constitutional for the government, in
order to encourage efficiency and interoperability, to forbid the
publication of any software that does not comply with the Windows 95
``standard''.

Here is what President Clinton had to say when he transferred the
regulation of cryptographic software from the Department of State to
the Department of Commerce:

 Because the export of encryption software, like the export of other
 encryption products described in this section, must be controlled
 because of such software's functional capacity, rather than because
 of any possible informational value of such software, such software
 shall not be considered or treated as ``technology,'' as that term is
 defined in section 16 of the EAA (50 U.S.C. App. 2415) and in the EAR
 (61 Fed. Reg. 12714, March 25,
 1996)[.]
 
Don't you find that rather frightening?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Sat Sep  6 12:38:09 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 03:38:09 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching you watch Farenheit 451
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970906142352.18e791e6@alph.swosu.edu>



At 05:56 PM 9/5/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
...
>BTW, the last copy of F451 I saw really irked me - the cover had
>explanatory notes like "Fahrenheit 451, the temperature that books burn!"
>and stuff about firemen whose job is setting fires.  
>Are today's kids dumbing down, or less literate, or is it just enough
>longer since the book was written that publishers need to try harder to 
>get people to read it?

A varient on the third and the first.
The people now see this and say "so what?, the school boards decision to get
rid of Mark Twain is over a year old."  They see the simple title and don't
see the same high octane comments that they see on movie posters.  "burn,
and fire" probably selling at least 5% more books.
That and even though they realize that a lot of it is old news to them.  It
happened within thier lifetime without thier realizing it.
Everyone, please send a recomendation to your senators and representatives
to please at least watch the movie variations of Farenheit 451 and 1984.
The fact that so much of what was depicted in these books was once fiction
should be noted and expressed.

If teenagers were informed that there was full-frontal-nudity in the 1984
movie, they might even be convinced to watch it.

I didn't see the Farenheit 451 movie, I read the book, I saw part of the
opening, saw one inconsistancy, (teacher where the neighbor was a student),
turned the PBS station off and went to bed.  So, I really don't know if
there is any good stuff there.  (Does the owner of the bible burn on screen?
Does the stand in for Guy Montag get killed on camera by the electric hound?
Does Guy Montag roast the fire chief alive, and do we get to see the flames?
Etc.)






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Sep  6 13:05:43 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:05:43 +0800
Subject: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
Message-ID: 



> At 17:31 05/09/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
> >Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> >MessageID: od2CIT3fELE7K6bkIkKGJBj0MPUJ2TT8
> >
> >hQCMA6ozRjzmqceZAQQAh02x0Dxer5vzZiSJ+v7bnMZQdgp425z5OH0NF/f/mXXc
> >vInw+UsuTXqWNEV5rEQKYjU3qHoe6suCz5f9hEEnOIBacsD28pYU4ahkGOCTuTY6
> >N3xKrtDRqLPInB8PY7Kfd56jjQsVVRKmJBwXqHbPax4YyUB6ZbKKvSPiuUsAAQSl
> >BAH3CFNKcmYjf+VtpjAVOpDNM/PMm1e6m33rZ01Sq6pXC0TTabCf7hkWscet0PCL
> >VX0l1Zw5IKaFqo+pZ3EICRMF6HQrc30G7L9TFeKr//3YsO3/bC4VBgNQHA0qf2nD
> >ldxAsTGPlRthBTxrzE0LjeOKi/pQOLXQMPQUwEIaL9rncjFgniplFoL6Nj0guJvW
> >VvS+gxth8hpeWss7WlFFioV0vShsS/lahA+eg/9nVy8ken8pr4m484w2vwoiSdce
> >CarVigVaRh6tCgh0jub7CHuDFg==
> >=Q9+G
> >-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
> >

I have brute-forced this message with my NSA-surplus CrayVax (TM) and
determined its contents are as follows:

Nuke Washington D.C.  Now.  Please.  Do it for me.
 -- TruthMonger

To the EFF (Electronic Forgery Foundation): Please get in contact with me via
the remailer network for instructions on where to send my $10M.

Here's my PLP key:

-----BEGIN PLP PRIVATE KEY-----
Version: Pretty Lousy Privacy v6.66
Comments: No Comment
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=zXsO
-----END PLP PRIVATE KEY-----






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From: kehazo at sprintmail.com (James)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Unsecured Credit Card-Approval Guaranteed
Message-ID: <199709072034IAA38861@a001.sprintmail.com>


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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep  6 13:29:49 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:29:49 +0800
Subject: Cpunks War Dance, Feinstein Hari-Kari
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906200748.0075110c@pop.pipeline.com>



http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697patent.html

A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances

By Peter Wayner

>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was different. This
Saturday night a group of computer scientists, Internet fanatics and
Beltway politicos will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to Whitfield Diffie
and Martin Hellman for a way to encrypt data. 

----------

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697feinstein.html

Feinstein's Remarks Rankle Constituents 

By Laurie J. Flynn

If Dianne Feinstein, California's voice in the U.S. Senate, were
looking for the fastest way to alienate her most powerful block of
voters, she may have found it this week. 







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep  6 14:38:02 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:38:02 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
In-Reply-To: <19970906073720.3185.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970906142615.0069ff20@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 12:37 AM 9/6/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem)
>GCC uses the newest chaos logic and is conventional cryptosystem 
>stream cipher encryption. It is high speed and allows variable-length keys,
>making it very reliable and suitable for use in multimedia.
>http://www.iisi.co.jp/reserch/GCC-over.htm
>[Products using it, user-friendliness, etc.]

Good user interfaces and high speed are important, but not enough.
How strong is the cypher?  Where is the academic research behind it?
What is the algorithm?  Why should we trust it?  Who else has tested it?
Other people have built cyphers based on chaotic systems, and found
they were weak when analyzed properly.  Building good cryptosystems is
difficult.

The web page doesn't give any details about the algorithm,
except saying that it uses chaos and strange attractors,
uses variable-length keys, and has a structure that uses
XOR of the stream cypher with the plaintext.
It does say the algorithm has a 0-1 balance of 0.5/0.5 
(which any good cryptosystems do) and has a medium-sized state space (2**96).

It claims that because it's a one-way stream cypher, that makes it
safe against chosen plaintext attacks.  That's not true.
Choose a plaintext of all zeros, and that gives you the
output of the chaotic system which you can analyze for patterns.
If you know the structure of the chaotic system, you can
analyze the mathematics to see how to find the state space,
and how to find the future output from the current output and
the state space - if the algorithm is strong, this is difficult,
but if the algorithm is weak, this is easy.  If you don't publish
the algorithm, nobody can prove that it's strong, and in the
world of cryptosystems, that means nobody will trust it,
because we know how weak many other strong-looking algorithms are.







From ghio at temp0110.myriad.ml.org  Sat Sep  6 14:54:55 1997
From: ghio at temp0110.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:54:55 +0800
Subject: Usenet Propagation Sucks
In-Reply-To: <199709052156.OAA11226@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199709062147.OAA21756@myriad>



Mark Hedges  wrote:

> In practice, it's really tough to keep a good feed going. We happen
> to keep the alt.anon* stuff for a longer period of time.

As do I.  The use of alt.anonymous.messages as an anonymous message pool
has become quite popular lately, to the point where the traffic often
reaches several MB per day.


> We've started keeping individual groups longer as requested by readers.
> This makes them happy, for the most part. It needs so much disk! We have
> two incoming server feeds and three outgoing and people still complain
> that their groups don't have enough messages for their liking.
...
> A server would need terabyte upon terabyte to store a good archive
> of Usenet for, say, the past year.

Actually, I am suprised at how small a segment of the internet populace
actually posts.  Can you imagine what would happen if a hundred million
people posted every day?  You'd need a terabyte for just one day!

One nice thing is that it is highly redundant, most usenet traffic can
be compressed by a 4:1 ratio.  You could probably fit your one-year
archive into a few hundred GB.

Long-term, it would probably be more reasonable to have people just store
and forward the groups that they are interested in, more like mailing
lists.  But I must admit that I read this list via nntp, because it's
just so much easier to have everything in one place, so until things
seriously break, I suspect most people will want to have big nntp servers
with everything on them.






From enoch at zipcon.net  Sat Sep  6 14:57:37 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:57:37 +0800
Subject: Bill C-95
Message-ID: <19970906214616.11123.qmail@zipcon.net>



jf_avon at citenet.net writes:

 > FOCUS: If 97% of Canadians are being pushed around by 3%,
 > there is something seriously wrong !!

If 0.00001% of a society is being pushed around by 99.99999%,
there is something seriously wrong.

The most important part of any democracy are the checks and
balances which prevent the majority from imposing their will on
the minority over things which are none of the majority's
business.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep  6 15:40:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 06:40:42 +0800
Subject: Cpunks War Dance, Feinstein Hari-Kari
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906200748.0075110c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 1:07 PM -0700 9/6/97, John Young wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697patent.html
>
>A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances
>
>By Peter Wayner
>
>>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was different. This
>Saturday night a group of computer scientists, Internet fanatics and
>Beltway politicos will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
>Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to Whitfield Diffie
>and Martin Hellman for a way to encrypt data.


Sounds to me like this reporter helped manufacture the news.....

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

And puppets still dance....



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sat Sep  6 16:17:15 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 07:17:15 +0800
Subject: 076l-090597-idx.html
Message-ID: <199709062308.TAA18475@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1][LINK]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [2]Business Section: the latest business headlines, company profiles
   and advice for managing your money.
   
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   All Business stories and columns from [4]this morning's Washington
   Post and an image of the Business section front.
   
   [5][ISMAP]-[6][USEMAP]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
OTS Eyes Challenges of Rule-Making for `Virtual Banks'

   By Cindy Skrzycki
   Washington Post Staff Writer
   Friday, September 5, 1997; Page G01
   The Washington Post
   
   The advent of virtual banking -- in which customers may deal with
   their banks only through computers -- has prompted federal regulators
   to begin revamping existing rules regarding electronic transactions.
   
   Although banks have been dabbling in home banking and automated teller
   machines for more than a decade, only about 4 percent of U.S.
   households conduct their banking transactions online, and many of
   those may be doing such simple tasks as checking an account balance.
   
   Since 1995, two "cyberspace" banks have come online, offering services
   such as the electronic transfer of funds between accounts and bill
   paying on the Internet. Other more traditional banks are buying the
   same sorts of software to offer more electronic banking services to
   their customers, often as an adjunct to traditional services.
   
   Banking regulators expect electronic banking -- and the forms it will
   take -- to grow exponentially now that millions of Americans are
   hooked into the Internet.
   
   "We are examining whether there is anything in our rules that impedes
   electronic banking and the use of technology," said Nicholas Retsinas,
   director of the Office of Thrift Supervision, who is heading the
   agency on an interim basis. The OTS regulates 1,270 federally
   chartered savings banks and state-chartered savings and loans. "What
   can we do to facilitate the use of electronic banking?"
   
   Retsinas has written frequently about the expanding role of technology
   in banking, pointing out the profitability of using computers: A
   teller transaction can cost up to $2.93; an Internet transaction, 2
   cents.
   
   In April, the OTS began examining rules it has had on the books since
   the 1980s covering home banking, automated teller machines and data
   processing. "OTS is concerned that its current electronic banking
   regulations do not adequately address advances in technology and may
   impede prudent innovation by federal savings associations," the agency
   said, promising it will have a proposal ready next month.
   
   "We promulgated some rules where we wondered whether the language was
   appropriate, let alone the rule," Retinas said, referring to "data
   processing," a vintage term that hardly begins to capture the
   potential scope of electronic transactions.
   
   The agency also was confronted with an increasing number of questions
   by its banking constituency. Was it all right to offer Internet
   banking to depositors living abroad? Could savings and loans open
   accounts for customers or issue loans from remote electronic
   locations? What kinds of banking services could be offered over the
   Internet?
   
   These kinds of queries prompted the OTS to delve into several areas
   where current regulations are murky, or nonexistent. For example, the
   OTS is trying to figure out whether automated loan machines, which
   allow customers to apply and receive confirmation for a consumer loan
   at a site similar to an ATM, should be considered branches or
   something akin to an ATM -- though loans cannot now be originated at
   ATMs.
   
   The OTS also wonders whether its current regulation on home banking
   services covers transactions such as opening new accounts online or
   processing credit applications.
   
   The agency is considering the philosophical quandaries presented by
   the borderless nature of banking in cyberspace. How does a bank with
   no bricks and mortar define community for purposes of fulfilling
   mortgage-lending obligations to minority groups under federal laws
   such as the Community Reinvestment Act?
   
   "How does an institution demonstrate that is serving the credit needs
   of a widely dispersed customer base when there is little or no
   geographic proximity between its deposit customers and its loan
   customers?" the OTS asked.
   
   Then there are questions of security. The OTS wonders whether it
   should mandate a specific level of encryption to make transactions
   impenetrable or "rely on general safety and soundness principles to
   govern a safe system of operation?" Does it need separate regulations
   for various forms of electronic banking that might be done over the
   phone, with special software on a personal computer or on the
   Internet?
   
   Some of these questions the OTS has already had to answer.
   
   Since 1995, the OTS has approved two "Internet" banks -- Security
   First Network Bank (SFNB) in Atlanta and the Atlanta Internet Bank.
   Both offer an array of banking services and rates that are highly
   competitive with "real" banks.
   
   One of the first concerns that the OTS had was the security of systems
   used by the Internet banks. SFNB, for example, has about 12,000
   accounts and $44 million in deposits.
   
   To satisfy regulators that Security First could protect consumers'
   privacy and the sanctity of transactions being done via the Internet,
   the OTS asked Security First to "test the penetration capabilities,"
   of the bank, said Eric W. Hartz, president of SFNB. That's another way
   of saying the OTS wanted to make sure that Security First's Internet
   banking operations didn't become a playground for hackers. Atlanta
   Internet had to undergo a similar exercise to get approval from the
   OTS.
   
   Bankers, for the most part, think it's too early to write definitive
   rules for an area dominated by changing technology, although they
   would like some current OTS rules changed to accommodate different
   forms of electronic banking. They also said they hoped to see
   coordination between the OTS and other agencies that regulate banking,
   such as the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the Federal
   Reserve Board.
   
   As Citibank noted in comments to the OTS, "We strongly encourage the
   adoption of broad enabling regulations and policy statements," but "we
   believe that the OTS should not at this time promulgate detailed
   presciptive or, worse yet, proscriptive rules affecting electronic
   banking activities."
   
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From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sat Sep  6 16:20:15 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 07:20:15 +0800
Subject: tdc0997globe.html
Message-ID: <199709062313.TAA18510@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   #[1]HOME [2]COPYRIGHT
   
   [3][ISMAP]-[4][USEMAP] September
     _________________________________________________________________
   
World Wide Weight

     America's dominance of the Internet isn't just a cultural issue. It
     could pose an infrastructure nightmare. 
     
   
    By Andreas Evagora.
    Andreas Evagora is international editor for tele.com. He can be
    reached over the Internet at [5]aevagora at mcgraw-hill.com.
    
   The year is 1962. At a White House conference, aides warn President
   John F. Kennedy that the newly emerging global phone network isn't
   really global at all. Kennedy is told that almost every
   intercontinental phone call is funneled through the United Kingdom or
   one of the other former colonial powers, and that those countries
   control the lion's share of international cables. Fearing that the
   United States will be powerless in the new telecom era, the Kennedy
   administration decides to create Intelsat, an international satellite
   system that would quickly end the domination of the old powers over
   the global telecom network.
   
   Fast forward to 1997. International service providers find that the
   newly emerging global Internet isn't really global at all. Reports
   tell them that more than half of intra-European and intra-Asian
   traffic is funneled through the United States. Once predictable
   traffic patterns are going haywire, rendering established
   technological and economic models irrelevant.
   
   Right now, there is no Intelsat on the horizon to save the day for
   telecom providers outside the United States. In fact, far from
   globalizing, all the signs are that Internet backbone
   infrastructure--and the traffic running on it--will become even more
   U.S.-centric over the next few years. This isn't just about U.S.
   domination: Non-U.S. service providers are contributing greatly to the
   imbalance by hatching plans to add new capacity to the States rather
   than to other countries in their region. Underpinning that trend is
   the concentration of content in America (more than eight of 10 Web
   sites are in English) and the continued high price, poor quality, and
   lack of easily available infrastructure outside the United States.
   
   The increased concentration of infrastructure and traffic into the
   United States not only works against the distributed philosophy of the
   Internet but also threatens to endanger the 'Net's international
   growth and overwork the U.S. backbone to the point of exhaustion. "The
   Internet today is a hub-and-spoke system, with the U.S. at the center
   of the entire world," says Neil Tagare, chairman of CTR Group Ltd.
   (Woodcliff Lake, N.J.), which plans to build a new global fiber
   cabling network linking 175 countries. "That's not right,
   technologically or politically."
   
   Already, service providers report that Internet links to the U.S. are
   straining to stand up to growing traffic volumes, while demand for
   other regional and intercontinental links remains tepid. Around the
   globe, U.S.-bound capacity is at a premium, with developing nations
   clinging onto the 'Net by a thread. If they are lucky, Russia's 150
   million people will share 40 Mbit/s of international Internet capacity
   by next year. Today, India--a nation of 900 million--has just 10
   Mbit/s of Internet capacity to the U.S.--about as much available on a
   LAN supporting a few dozen workers in the United States. "The lack of
   non-U.S. infrastructure is holding back real growth of the 'Net in
   many regions," says Petri Ojala, technical director of the Finnish
   Commercial Internet Exchange (Helsinki, Finland). "If a regional
   Internet community is short of capacity, it simply cannot develop as
   it wants. Less capacity means less content, less innovation."
   
   If Internet infrastructure continues to be concentrated in the United
   States, some fear that the whole non-U.S. high-tech sector will be in
   grave danger. Because the 'Net is becoming a critical tool for
   software development, a concentration of capacity in the States might
   lead to a concentration of innovation there as well. To be sure, it's
   difficult to see how India's enormous software development industry
   can prosper with 'Net access that is far inferior to that of
   competitors in the United States.
   
   A few 'Net watchers warn that failure to address the Internet
   imbalance could put some nations at a political disadvantage as well.
   "What if a new U.S. government wanted to leverage its control of the
   Internet for political ends?" asks one executive at a non-U.S.
   Internet service provider. "If it wanted to embargo Cuba, it could use
   its influence to control Internet communications there."
   
   But the outlook for regional backbones is less than bright. Such
   networks are all but absent in Asia-Pacific, Latin America, and
   Africa, while backbones in Europe, where the World Wide Web was
   invented, offer no more than 2 Mbit/s of bandwidth (see
   [6]"Un-American Activities"). Compare that with backbone construction
   in the United States, where today's typical 622-Mbit/s backbones are
   expected to double in capacity next year.
   
   Interregional Internet connections also are sorely lacking. Almost
   every byte of traffic between continents passes through the United
   States, hopping over at least two backbone links on the way.
   Concurrently, non-U.S. network access points (NAPs), where Internet
   service providers exchange traffic, are small in both number and
   processing capacity. "If you were to squint at a map of the global
   Internet infrastructure, all lines would roll into the U.S.," says
   Robert Hagens, director of Internet engineering at MCI. "That's not a
   good way to build a network."
   
   Service providers have never quite faced anything like this before.
   Exponential demand for traffic to the United States is soaring, but
   investing more in these routes doesn't add significantly to the bottom
   line (some phone companies that are also Internet providers offer free
   local calling--and therefore free local access--to the Internet but
   still need to add extra capacity), and it only increases the
   dependency on the U.S. backbone. "Carriers are in a chicken-and-egg
   situation," says Chris Champion, senior consultant at The Yankee Group
   Europe (Watford, U.K.). "They only want to invest where there is a lot
   of traffic, but there won't be enough traffic until they upgrade the
   backbones."
   
   EUNet International B.V. (Amsterdam), the European backbone operator,
   this month is increasing its U.S.-bound capacity by 34 Mbit/s, to 72
   Mbit/s, to meet demand. But its intra-European backbone network, which
   comprises mainly 2-Mbit/s links, faces no capacity crunch. "We don't
   have any [intra-European] congestion problems whatsoever," says Wim
   Vink, the company's managing director.
   
   The problem is, the global Internet is running headlong into an
   international infrastructure regime that actually is causing
   congestion on intercontinental routes. Capacity planning and demand
   forecasts on these routes have been designed largely by monopolies
   around the predictable needs of a staid, 5 percent a year growth in
   traffic. Phone companies traditionally buy capacity on
   intercontintental cables 20 or 25 years ahead of time. That's not a
   strategy suited to the Internet; who knows what will happen when
   bandwidth-hungry voice and multimedia applications pile onto the 'Net,
   as they are expected to in coming years?
   
   Service providers already are feeling the tremors (see [7]"Borne in
   the U.S.A."). In the summer of last year, Internet traffic from Sweden
   to the United States was about half the volume of voice traffic
   between those two countries. By the end of 1996, data and voice
   traffic volumes on the Sweden- to-U.S. route were equal, and now data
   volume is double that of voice. Meanwhile, voice still accounts for
   the vast majority of traffic to neighboring Finland and Denmark.
   
   Traffic patterns between the world's two biggest economies also signal
   the changes that lie ahead. Kokusai Denshin Denwa Co. Ltd. (KDD,
   Tokyo), Japan's dominant international carrier, has 10 Mbit/s of
   Internet capacity to the United States and 15 Mbit/s to the rest of
   Asia. Yet the ratio of Internet traffic to the United States and to
   Asia is 8 to 1. "The situation is changing very quickly," says Hiroshi
   Kobayashi, the carrier's deputy director of Internet business. "Two
   years ago, the total ratio of traffic flow from the U.S. to Japan was
   4 to 1. Now, it is only 2 to 1." That means Japan is sending
   proportionally more traffic to the United States--a traffic shift
   directly attributable to the growth of the Internet.
   
   In Australia, Telstra Corp. Ltd. (Melbourne) is dealing with a
   U.S./Asia Internet traffic ratio of about 6.5 to 1. "I can deal with
   the 1--it's the 6.5 that is the problem," jokes John Hibbard, managing
   director of international carrier business. Telstra now has 130 Mbit/s
   of Internet capacity to the United States, compared with 2 Mbit/s to
   the rest of Asia. Still, Hibbard says of the U.S. route, "We will see
   a big squeeze in 1998." As a measure of just how high demand for
   bandwidth to the United States has been driven, Hibbard notes that
   bids for the 1,000 or so 2-Mbit/s circuits on the new transpacific
   TPC-5 cable, due to come into service at the end of this year, were
   oversubscribed by nearly four times. "The Asia-Pacific region must
   reduce its dependency on the United States to ensure that the quality
   of service is not dependent on the U.S. link, which is frequently
   congested," Hibbard says.
   
   That overdependency is creating an economic as well as a technical
   fallout. Non-U.S. carriers are investing in extra capacity to the
   United States, without seeing returns on that investment in terms of
   extra revenues. As a result, many international carriers--Telstra
   included--complain that in paying the full cost of circuits to the
   States, they are effectively subsidizing the U.S. Internet community.
   They argue that U.S. service providers should pay for at least a
   portion of those circuits.
   
   In the traditional telephony world, international circuits are
   provided on a shared-cost basis, with each carrier meeting costs to a
   theoretical midpoint between two countries. Telstra and its supporters
   want such principles to be looked at--although not necessarily applied
   fully--in discussions about the Internet.
   
   This year, Telstra will lose US$10 million on providing Internet
   circuits to the United States. By 2000, the total spending on
   U.S.-bound Internet circuits from all non-U.S. service providers will
   reach US$2.5 billion, Hibbard notes. "We are providing resources for
   which we are not adequately compensated," he says. "At the same time,
   I am offering U.S. users access to Australian databases without
   getting a brass razoo." Hibbard explains that traffic from the United
   States to Australia gets a free ride, as U.S. service providers aren't
   contributing to the international connection.
   
   International service providers are lobbying U.S. regulators for
   compensation. "When people first started connecting to the Internet,
   that normally meant they were connecting to America, and as a result
   had to pay for the connection," says Michael Behringer, senior network
   engineer at Dante (Cambridge, U.K.), which operates the EuropaNet
   Internet backbone. Until recently almost all Internet content has
   resided in the United States, so it was fair for overseas providers to
   pay the bill for access to that content, Behringer reasons. But for
   Internet content to become truly global, payments should be more
   equitable, and non-U.S. service providers should not have to bear 100
   percent of the payment burden, he says.
   
   A group of Asia-Pacific carriers, including KDD and Telstra, has
   already made a proposal to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission
   that such Internet circuit fees should at least be taken into
   consideration during discussions on accounting rates, the fees paid by
   one carrier to another for delivering an international telephone call.
   To give their argument on leased lines to the United States more
   ammunition, several Asian carriers recently agreed to share the cost
   of international leased circuits for Internet communications between
   their own countries. The matter has also been raised at meetings of
   the Group of Seven (G7) nations. But so far, U.S. officials have
   rejected the complaint, and international officials don't seem to hold
   out much hope of success. "The Americans are sympathetic, but I doubt
   if they'll do anything because they don't have to," Behringer says.
   
   Carriers that offer free local calls, such as Singapore Telecom Ltd.
   and Telstra, are the most eager for change as they recoup little or no
   revenue when users access local servers to tap the global Internet.
   They argue that the Internet needs to be put on a more commercial
   footing. In Singapore, 65 percent of all 'Net traffic passes through
   the United States. "Because of the high cost of international
   bandwidth, it actually would cost a user US$100 an hour to connect to
   the Internet with a 2-Mbit/s link if he was paying the real commercial
   rate to the U.S.," said Tan Boon Tiong, deputy director of network
   technology development at Singapore Telecom, speaking at the
   International Telecommunication Union's Asia Telecom conference in
   June.
   
   Service providers point to other factors holding back the
   globalization of Internet infrastructure, such as the high cost of
   maintenance, installation, and operation and a lack of human
   resources. But many independent Internet service providers say that
   old-line telecom operators are hardly covering themselves in glory as
   the 'Net spreads its tentacles. Independent service providers and
   builders of backbones say that high leased-line costs remain the
   single biggest factor holding back the expansion of regional backbones
   that could help keep more Internet communications away from the United
   States. Lack of competition and a scarcity of infrastructure,
   particularly cross-border links, continue to keep leased-line prices
   in Europe three to 10 times more expensive than equivalent lines in
   the United States. Service providers say that they must wait up to
   five months for a cross-border E3 (34-Mbit/s) line, where such service
   exists.
   
   Ironically, it's the traditional telcos, which set those high prices,
   that are gradually taking over the operation of pan-European Internet
   backbones. "European carriers are schizophrenic," concedes one
   official at an international carrier alliance. "They will cry about
   lack of liberalization in another country but do all they can to delay
   liberalization in their own market as long as possible. That's human
   nature."
   
   That human nature is only serving to encourage the flow of 'Net
   traffic and facilities to the United States. "Dante's backbone took 18
   months to organize and two years to turn into a reality," Behringer
   says. "That delay was far too long and was mostly caused by arguing
   with telcos."
   
   It's not just high leased-line prices that anger independent ISPs.
   Deutsche Telekom, now Europe's largest ISP, still refuses to peer its
   network at Frankfurt's commercial NAP, where more than 25 independent
   German ISPs exchange traffic. Instead, Deutsche Telekom maintains a
   single peering deal with Deutsches Forschungsnetz (DFN), a scientific
   and academic network. That lack of domestic peering means that all
   communications between Deutsche Telekom and other German ISPs must be
   routed via the United States.
   
   "Peering via the U.S. affects Deutsche Telekom customers and our
   customers because of the delays on U.S. lines, which are normally
   saturated," says Thomas Bastian, senior technical director at CERFnet
   Germany Inc. (Frankfurt), the German unit of U.S. ISP TCG CERFnet (San
   Diego). In response, he says, all independent ISPs have announced that
   they will cancel any private peerings with DFN as of this coming
   January.
   
   "We are confident that things will change, but everything takes so
   long in Europe," Bastian says. "Our U.S. operation connects into NAPs
   at 155 Mbit/s, but here in Germany it's at 2 Mbit/s. It's very
   expensive just to set up a system, and those costs are inevitably
   passed on to users, which slows market development."
   
   Until more capacity is made available, there's not much chance that
   the global Internet's dependency on the United States will fade away.
   CTR Group's Tagare, a former executive at Nynex Network Systems
   (Bermuda) Ltd.--one of the founders of the FiberOptic Link Around the
   Globe (FLAG) project building a new global undersea cable--says that a
   lot of capacity remains warehoused to block competition. "Active
   capacity is no more than 50 to 60 percent of the bandwidth out
   there--the rest is warehoused," he says. "The people who need capacity
   desperately can't buy it because none is available, while those that
   have it can't use it because they don't have sufficient demand for it.
   That's an extremely inefficient model."
   
   WorldCom International Inc. (New York), another company planning to
   lay new international cabling, also places much of the blame for the
   current malaise at the door of incumbent telcos, in particular for
   failing to spot the tide of demand for data communications. WorldCom
   International says that voice today accounts for 80 percent of
   international traffic, but will make up only 20 percent by the early
   part of next decade.
   
   "Terabyte requirements will soon be upon us, but carriers got caught
   asleep making cozy, 4 percent growth demand forecasts," says Colin
   Williams, the company's international executive vice president.
   "Today, 90 percent of Internet traffic goes to the U.S., but we
   haven't yet scratched the surface of bandwidth requirements across the
   Atlantic."
   
   Translation: Don't expect a truly global Internet anytime soon.
   
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   8. http://www.teledotcom.com/
   9. http://www.teledotcom.com/toc/tocindex.html
  10. http://www.teledotcom.com/business/businessindex.html
  11. http://www.teledotcom.com/technology/techindex.html
  12. http://www.teledotcom.com/supply/supplyindex.html
  13. http://www.teledotcom.com/soapbox/soapindex.html
  14. http://www.teledotcom.com/staff/us.html
  15. http://www.teledotcom.com/tdcbackissues.html
  16. http://www.McGraw-Hill.com/corporate/copyrttm.htm
  17. mailto:msacca at compugraphia.com






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep  6 17:03:33 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:03:33 +0800
Subject: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>



See William Reinsch's testimony on the administration's 
encryption policy at the September 4 SAFE hearing:

   http://jya.com/bxa090497.htm

Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill,
Reinsch states:

1. Foreign crypto products are not as widely available as export
control critics claim, and thus do not threaten US products.

2. The administration is against mandatory key escrow.

3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
Act bill or other legislation that will:

  Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose 
  any type or strength of encryption.

  Explicitly state that participation in a key management 
  infrastructure is voluntary .

  Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
  information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
  authority and provide liability protection for key recovery 
  agents who have properly released such information.

  Criminalize the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
  further a crime. 	  

  Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
  providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
  government recognition, allowing them to market the 
  trustworthiness implied by government approval.

----------

Leads to the testimony of NSA's Cowell and Justice's Litt would
be appreciated.

Representative Weldon remarked at length about encryption and
defense matters on September 4, supporting the administration's
policy:

   http://jya.com/weldon.txt  (46K)






From stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com  Sat Sep  6 17:13:51 1997
From: stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:13:51 +0800
Subject: Stupid Senate Tricks, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Declan McCullagh writes:

DM> (Yet Bono was the only member of Congress with the balls to
DM> challenge FBI opposition to pro-privacy legislation at a hearing
DM> earlier this year. Go figure.)

	Perhaps ignorance is bliss?  It seems like the standard
response of Congresscritters who have been gotten to is "If you only
knew what I now know", so perhaps Rep Bono is too dull to absorb the
tales of the Horsemen in the secret briefings.

- -- 
#include                                /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQBVAwUBNBHdmfCBWKvC9LiRAQHVMQIAlkMSYB3eh02qxXcve8ScJ03dydvGh4Wo
Y+Q3RIJLE5clzYwl6/lWt1TzYqRqqnNRXq/9TkuYe590ku+xkpzlNA==
=y/Sf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sat Sep  6 17:35:08 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:35:08 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709070027.TAA23530@manifold.algebra.com>



Prof. Sternlight, do you admit that you were wrong?

Please share your thoughts with cypherpunks at algebra.com

Thank you.

igor

----- Forwarded message from Tim May -----

>From owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM  Sat Sep  6 12:06:52 1997
X-Sender: tcmay at mail.got.net
Message-Id: 
In-Reply-To: <970906105358_284527778 at emout18.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:41:38 -0700
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
From: Tim May 
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at algebra.com
X-List-Admin: ichudov at algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks at algebra.com


At 7:54 AM -0700 9/6/97, Syniker at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-06 07:15:18 EDT, vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z.
>Nuri) writes:
>
><< maybe I'm not following closely enough, but I haven't seen a *single*
> reference. that's really eerie. can't we get a *single*
> senator to bring up that issue? >>
>
>me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
>and where's all the 'censorship' people????
>it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
>the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
>how can we all have wet powder at the same time?

I didn't see Detweiler's original message ('til just now), but I think this
is wrong, the "I haven't seen a *single*  reference" (to the
constitutionality of mandatory key escrow).

In some of the accounts of the Freeh-Feinstein-etc. colloquy, there were
mentions that mandatory key escrow probably would be desirable, but
probably not be possible. (I took this to mean they, including Freeh,
recognized it would be unconstitutional).

Of course, then the draft text of the GAK bill floated by the next day, and
it of course contained no references to constitutionality (not
surprisingly, as draft bills are not self-analyses).

Despite my cynicism, I'd expect the courts to issue an immediate stay on
enforcement on such a law, as happened with the CDA. With probably an
expedited hearing before the Supreme Court. As so many have noted, it seems
to be a slam dunk infringement on the right to speak freely and in whatever
language one wishes. And some 4th and 5th and other involvements.

It may be a stalking horse. A threat. Designed to force a compromise. "If
you don't pass McCain-Kerrey, this is what you'll get."

A helluva way to run a country, er, a world.

But look on the bright side: the militias and other patriot groups are
getting a huge bounce out of this. Stay far away from the nests of vipers.
Jefferson's wisdom that we need a revolution every generation or so is
apt...though it's been about 180 years too long.

Now even those, like Sternlight, who claimed the government would never
require key escrow, have to admit we were right all along.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




----- End of forwarded message from Tim May -----


	- Igor.






From nea25 at sprintmail.com  Sun Sep  7 10:06:47 1997
From: nea25 at sprintmail.com (James)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Unsecured Credit Card-Approved Guaranteed
Message-ID: <19970907271IAA29748@post.a001.sprintmail.com>


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From tm at dev.null  Sat Sep  6 19:14:06 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:14:06 +0800
Subject: Cpunks War Dance, Feinstein Hari-Kari
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3412098A.57BF@dev.null>



Tim May wrote:

> >A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances
> >
> >By Peter Wayner
> >
> >>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was different. This
> >Saturday night a group of computer scientists, Internet fanatics and
> >Beltway politicos will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
> >Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to Whitfield Diffie
> >and Martin Hellman for a way to encrypt data.
 
> Sounds to me like this reporter helped manufacture the news.....
> 
> The more things change, the more they remain the same.
> 
> And puppets still dance....

Tim,
  I told Peter Wayner about your plans to commit suicide tonight.
He's already written a story for tomorrow, and he wants to know
if you're going to do it, or let him down and make him look like
an idiot.

The 1/2MONGER






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep  6 19:18:09 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:18:09 +0800
Subject: Puppet Masters
Message-ID: <9b9319bba8770ed27d7bb269b97ef995@anon.efga.org>




Sunday, September 07, 1997 - 03:16:32 MET

> > i am getting a very bad feeling that maybe the level of inside/outside
> > censorship of the press may be a good indicator, like the Doomsday 
> > Clock, of how close we are to the day when the Puppet Masters finally
> > step out from behind their masks.
> 
> 	Puppet Masters don't step out from behind thier masks.  They have
> someone else step out for them.
> 
> ~kp


-Creeping encrouchment-Puppet Masters Get Increasingly 
Bold-

With each succeeding assault on the constitutional rights of citizens 
the gov't  both tests and increases the public's willingness to give 
away those rights. As we sit idly by,  parlor intellectualizing, 
anyone who really dares to organize,  gets fried, on national tv for 
the trouble.

Make a timeline from the first live at 5 fry of the 'bad guys' in the 
70s, to the present and observe the circumstances surrounding each 
one.

When they started this- judged on television, fried on television- 
brainwash, they at least tried to put on a semblence of 
justifiability,..ie SLA," kidnappers, bankrobbers,thugs disguised as 
mad dog radicals"..etc and went to great lenghts to see that the 
point was well propagandized to the 'people' and that the 'people' 
accordind to neilson or gallup or somebody, were in consensus and 
then 'puff'', charcoaled the constitution with human kindling before 
EVERYBODIES eyes.

A few op ed pages later, with no real political or social fallout. 
They decide to do it again, and then do it again, upping the ante 
each time.. .the Order, Mt. Carmel, Weaver, etc

...By the time they do the Davidians, they offer specious 
reckless charges that were never substantiated and in fact were 
easily discredited and 85 people burned alive on national tv. people 
who were never charged with any crime-when federal goons 
attempted to serve a specious search warrant as if they were 
marching into lebenon.

The militias of today are saying and doing what the Panthers 
advocated 25 yrs ago. Though each of these groups  held to 
radically different ideologies, the common denomionator is they took 
a stand against an illegal abuse of local and federal power by 
organising into a community of interests that was prepared to defend 
it's right to do so against outside intrusion, and that is whatthe 
puppet masters would not tolerate.

They aren't going to come jackbooting into our cities and towns. 
They are already there, shoving plungers up our ass when they don't 
like the way we look.  They isolate any pocket of dissension (and 
to dare to organize into a community is to dissent) , whether it is 
black, white, christian, islamic or whatever,..can you say 
"cypherpunk".. and burn them out of existence, putting it on tv as an 
object lesson for the rest of us,

The local police, the military, both houses, the administration and 
all the various goon squads are all pigs drinking from the same trough. The presidential elections are a
tv show designed to give us the illusion of a democracy. Its no
accident that the houses reconvene with the new tv season. It is all
for mind control nothing else.

Now I am no christian fundementalist, white supremicist, black power 
fanatic or anything else; just an average person trying to live my 
life simply and freely but the only way things will change is when we 
the 'coach potato sheeple' including intellectual armchair quarterbacks
who think they are superior and above it all because they can run a few 
sentences together, docmartin, airjordan, dingo, nike and ourache our way into 
washington with some plungers of our own and enlighten the fucking white 
house the same way they enlighten us. 

Timothy McVeigh for President Committee-











From tm at dev.null  Sat Sep  6 19:43:07 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:43:07 +0800
Subject: The future of Digital (Ouch!) Implants
Message-ID: <34120EB4.1DBA@dev.null>



NotW:

* An April issue of New Scientist magazine reported that
Australia's national research organization CSIRO has already made
three sales of its "phalloblaster" device (at about $3,500 [U.S.])
that inflates the genitalia of dead insects to make it easier to
classify
them.  Its official name is the "vesica everter," and it will work on
genitalia as small as those of moths with wingspans of 2 millimeters.







From tm at dev.null  Sat Sep  6 19:43:47 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:43:47 +0800
Subject: Texas CypherPunks Take Up Arms!
Message-ID: <3412120F.1C48@dev.null>



We need to thank Jim Choate for his tireless efforts in this regard.

* According to USA Today in May, a bill pending in the Texas
legislature would allow anyone with a record of mental illness
nonetheless to obtain a concealed weapon permit if approved by a
doctor. 

http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html






From tm at dev.null  Sat Sep  6 19:44:00 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:44:00 +0800
Subject: Oxygen Escrow (Government Regulations soon to be announced!)
Message-ID: <34120D94.2AC7@dev.null>



>From NotW:

* Bangkok's largest English-language newspaper, The Nation,
reported in February on a raging war by coffin sellers in the
southern Thailand city of Nakhon Si Thammarat.  Eight shops are
located across the street from the city's largest hospital, and bribes
of hospital personnel for clients are common.  A television station
reported that one shop's agent sneaked into several hospital rooms
to disconnect oxygen to terminal patients whose relatives were
already known to the shop and thus might have given that shop
their business.







From tm at dev.null  Sat Sep  6 19:44:31 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:44:31 +0800
Subject: 4 Horsemen - 1  Child Citizen - 0 / (Where are Lous Freeh and Janet Reno when you really need them?)
Message-ID: <34120BD6.4DC6@dev.null>



WEIRDNUZ.493 (News of the Weird, July 18, 1997)
by Chuck Shepherd

* In May, the Minnesota Court of Appeals reversed a $1 million
award by a jury that had found parishioner Dale Scheffler, 30, to
have been molested at age 14 by Catholic priest Robert Kapoun,
finding that Scheffler's lawsuit was barred by the statute of
limitations.  Two weeks later, the Archdiocese of St. Paul and
Minneapolis announced that it had filed with the court a claim of
$4,937 against Scheffler to recover part of its legal expenses since
the Archdiocese is now regarded as the winning party.  Father
Kapoun filed for $1,081.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Sep  6 19:50:34 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:50:34 +0800
Subject: Toto UnMasked!!!
Message-ID: <199709070233.EAA02851@basement.replay.com>



And in June, authorities in Cincinnati, Ohio, removed
three toddlers from the feces-strewn bedroom they were locked
into for up to 12 hours a day; their mother, Sandra Hacker,
allegedly did not want them disturbing her while she was on the
Internet. 

News of the Weird
  by Chuck Shephard







From stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com  Sat Sep  6 20:16:03 1997
From: stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:16:03 +0800
Subject: standardizing encryption
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> dformosa  writes:

d> On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

>> Do you think do to use standardizing encryption?  I think It isn't
>> too very good.

d> Rather then being not too good, it is infact neccery.  Unless we
d> have a standard, secure encrytion system, cryto is next to useless.

d> What is the use of encrypting your email if the recpent can't
d> decode it.

	I think a standard algorithm would be a bad idea, because that 
implies someone choosing what algorithm to be the standard.  Better is 
publicly known formats and algorithms, so that the strengths of the
algorithms can be tested, and multiple products can implement the same 
formats and algorithms, and compete on the basis of features and
usability, rather than FUD-based claims of security.  This may result
in multiple formats and algorithms being used, and that's all for the
best, so that when one algorithm is compromised, others are available
to be switched to.

- -- 
#include                                /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQBVAwUBNBIbRPCBWKvC9LiRAQHZ4AH/URoqW6r9VW2hxq6ZIFBiK013SjNtHA69
SmtvvcmJ3hDgfoZJO+bMPqj+GF9+hxB8mFKvbnH2l6rpSs3RsfT6Tw==
=m4af
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu  Sat Sep  6 21:59:04 1997
From: bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu (bennett_t1 at popmail.firn.edu)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:59:04 +0800
Subject: Information
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970907004523.00854ae0@popmail.firn.edu>



At 04:09 PM 9/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Leo Papandreou  writes:
>> On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Harry Regan wrote:
>>
>> > Information, please!
>> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>Don't "escrow" your keys.

When they say it's for "Legitimate law enforcement" they are lying SOB's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
			-U.S. Constitution, Amendment II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From phoenix at cutey.com  Sat Sep  6 22:30:35 1997
From: phoenix at cutey.com (Irwan Hadi)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:30:35 +0800
Subject: EFF $10,000,0000 Challenge
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970907120328.04bf0fdc@mail.bit.net.id>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 19:51 06/09/97 GMT, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>I have brute-forced this message with my NSA-surplus CrayVax (TM) 
and
>determined its contents are as follows:
How long  you can brute forte attack this message ???
If you're right, that you only do it in 2 days, so BRUTE forte my 
message, it was encrypted with PGP Mail 4.5 with 2048 bits, and here 
I give my public key. Remember this is only for a test, so this 
public key won't find in any keyserver.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 4.5

mQENAjQSNNoAAAEIAKFY8Xi4uzfbcaOQczO59E2dLxmFqq89h/S9rrFNZNij5tu7
weX7qe7unQhL2d/jpiWlM5CKxQaM044/bSHsxDGdfFi9KOptvmHdncZQ2oRB5zQh
mNPK6pK4Ty8pxJsWALuBwDMt9Wt+0u+tkPlJK2AHWpHf+8gncrWqSv7p3N1lThhT
KHdodcwdIEzTr5jbatf1u+/gr1LyHLPW5dt32sjfi07vsAXGwiOQ4kPEVZuCsX/O
9qO2vISnTD1jFoA2O572UzYZeUKL/uzsO3I9m9Erwq9S2ULO8WZ+iasYGC3mu8PE
jp8O/Xhf/AsSF/s0nX8i8pWtBS4TNiU3t4CRIK8ABRG0K1RoaXMgaXMgb25seSBm
b3IgdGVzdCwgZnJvbSBUSEUtUGhvZW5peEJpcmQ=
=Go7q
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

And this is the message
- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: sent by : phoenix at cutey.com

hQEMAjYlN7eAkSCvAQf/WqRP7J61OUkUtGbSUlpjiHsWZ0L6ZFKSsXM92gU7n6/R
lqpIK9al1TRg+FxyWh0Adng7BS9jrbn8CHxHtFLCj3FmvH5oVWGM7oSLT+ho/Bfe
KX4t0TEF5X71LiNaBfyi/AXEwHlxPvoboGcPsT1maH8POtwMguZGL7goc86rrA/f
xlMvi/VkXpw5LACsJ91za7izab9TlIGOorgVfkkJuhPHACGl/HWHOFEuLVwR7+eV
3UzaxYUxrPBUzJaSv/juOq29a7ipbSIVFJQjWpQ8w34P8Bc2JMupRUxUC7LNmDdd
fK5Z80GbZ6Ul3ib8Pi5j8PKuaKhCBLjPUB2YoVN67qYAAABOOeVBhzwd7xRSntqY
hFLYzJ5CmOuNfn8F85yeh+KIy5w818VtL6xE5Gq9t911A/6texuTn18Rm+mAiLNL
Bs30Yo3/AS90lSHSWVvpHC7y
=YsNb
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

I'll give one row of the message, it consist of 2 rows.
Here the first row :

PGP is Pretty Good Privacy.


if you can, give me the second row.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBHTMFFJDOlka9UjEQKEAgCgqeJf2WWQHnElrfC/570omcvR64EAnAzM
ei2e5XDIcK5Esyb5wOaypzEe
=/iP1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  6 22:54:38 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:54:38 +0800
Subject: The 1996 RSA Data Security Conference Proceedings
Message-ID: <19970907053504.19514.qmail@hotmail.com>



Does anybody have The 1996 RSA Data Security
Conference Proceedings?
If You have it,Please send e-mail to me.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From wgrip at spica.net  Sun Sep  7 14:07:54 1997
From: wgrip at spica.net (wgrip at spica.net)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:07:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Get Your Site Noticed!!
Message-ID: <52523477_46458952>



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From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Sun Sep  7 01:55:17 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:55:17 +0800
Subject: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709070848.SAA07711@bear.apana.org.au>




> Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill,
> Reinsch states:
[/\]
> 3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
> provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
> Act bill or other legislation that will:
...
>   Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>   providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>   government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>   trustworthiness implied by government approval.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BWHAHAHA this is some kind of sick joke surely.

Get ur crypto here folks, it's approved by the gubermint.







From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Sun Sep  7 02:02:12 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:02:12 +0800
Subject: The future of Digital (Ouch!) Implants
In-Reply-To: <34120EB4.1DBA@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709070851.SAA07734@bear.apana.org.au>



They sound like a bunch of ped-a-files to me
They need to be plungered

> * An April issue of New Scientist magazine reported that
> Australia's national research organization CSIRO has already made
> three sales of its "phalloblaster" device (at about $3,500 [U.S.])
> that inflates the genitalia of dead insects to make it easier to
> classify
> them.  Its official name is the "vesica everter," and it will work on
> genitalia as small as those of moths with wingspans of 2 millimeters.







From adrian at access.net.au  Sun Sep  7 02:33:37 1997
From: adrian at access.net.au (Adrian Mollenhorst)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:33:37 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01BCBBC2.B57F4E40@d017.meldas3.access.net.au>



Unubscribe cypherpunks-unedited






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Sun Sep  7 05:29:07 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:29:07 +0800
Subject: tdc0997globe.html
In-Reply-To: <199709062313.TAA18510@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199709071220.IAA01388@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


[Well I am not quoting any of a rather lengthy post. It's in the archives
if you want to read it.]

What a load of crap. Nothing but wining and snivelling about internet
traffic ratios between the states and overseas. How awful that 80% of
Internet content is in English. Oh my people overseas actually want to
connect to US sites and god forbid the foreign Telco's have to pay to
improve their connections to the States.

It is simple Economics 101 supply and demand. Content providers are
producing what people on the net want thus the increasing demand. If there
were people in Russia, or Asia, or India who were producing content that
people wanted then the demand would be to connect to those servers but it
is not. Nor should the silly notion that US providers should subsidize
foreign Telco's so they can improve their communication be given a second
thought. If their customers want/need improved bandwidth to the US then
let them pay for it. 

It's bad enough that my tax dollars are being pissed away by the billions
overseas without more of it be wasted on them.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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nlG3790VFcc=
=OVpx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Sep  7 05:36:24 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:36:24 +0800
Subject: GAK Ploy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907121556.007502a4@pop.pipeline.com>



Markoff reports today on the latest GAK ploy:

   http://jya.com/gak-door.htm

Excerpts:

   Government officials disputed the idea that requiring
   decoding technology would necessarily mean the technology
   would be used.

   "There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
   into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,"
   said Robert Litt, a Deputy Assistant United States
   Attorney.

   The Administration is now moving on an effort to block
   legislation [SAFE] that is to be considered this week by the house
   Intelligence and National Security Committees. That
   legislation would end Government control over cryptographic
   systems. The Administration proposal is being offered as an
   amendment to that bill.







From valdeez at juno.com  Sun Sep  7 05:38:27 1997
From: valdeez at juno.com (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:38:27 +0800
Subject: Prayer to A.M. Turing
Message-ID: <19970907.072429.3854.40.valdeez@juno.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Oh Lord Turing, God of Messages and Pathways, please reduce the
latency time of the remailer network!  Please accept this humble
offering: 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=4W9L
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




E-mail was meant to be Free, And so should Free Speech
To Report any Abuse or Request Your E-Mail Address to
be BLOCKED, Contact valdeez at juno.com






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Sun Sep  7 05:40:00 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:40:00 +0800
Subject: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709071220.IAA01391@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64 at pop.pipeline.com>, on 09/06/97 
   at 07:43 PM, John Young  said:

>See William Reinsch's testimony on the administration's 
>encryption policy at the September 4 SAFE hearing:

>   http://jya.com/bxa090497.htm

>Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill, Reinsch
>states:

>1. Foreign crypto products are not as widely available as export control
>critics claim, and thus do not threaten US products.

Lie

>2. The administration is against mandatory key escrow.

Lie

>3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
>provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network  Act bill or
>other legislation that will:

>  Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose 
>  any type or strength of encryption.

Lie

>  Explicitly state that participation in a key management 
>  infrastructure is voluntary .

Lie

>  Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
>  information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
>  authority and provide liability protection for key recovery 
>  agents who have properly released such information.

Any time they want it.

>  Criminalize the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
>  further a crime. 

Any and all uses will be a crime.	  

>  Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>  providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>  government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>  trustworthiness implied by government approval.


They don't want it nor do they need it.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From wiu at vtx.ch  Sun Sep  7 20:42:31 1997
From: wiu at vtx.ch (Floodgate)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bulk Email For Profit
Message-ID: <199709074309WAA49591@post.gn.apc.org>




To be removed - Hit reply and type "remove"
in the subject of your letter.

******************************************************
        
            MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
                PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

          SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
         1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

           YES, 1,000's  Of Messages An Hour

******************************************************

    YOU CAN ALSO RECEIVE A "BOMB-PROOF" EMAIL ADDRESS
     AND WEB PAGE TO USE IN YOUR MARKETING LETTER !!

******************************************************
     
That's right. We believe that there should be little
or NO restrictions on Internet communications and email!
Our two (2) software programs demonstrate the notion of
unlimited, uncensored, and unrestricted, bullet-proof
email use.

  YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER" 
        AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely on shear volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have found that by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in your product, the response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 2.018
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17 
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ 
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back     guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. 
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities,   way more. 
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim. 
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. 
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response   (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet. 

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE! 

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the only place you can get it from! 

     *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED. 
     *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS. 
     *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL. 
     *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS. 
     *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF               SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS! 
     *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE                500,000 OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR       ORDERS TO POUR IN. 
     *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<< 

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one single dial-up connection. 

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS... 

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to, the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know... 

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you... 

     *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels. 
     *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header. 
     *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with       real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header. 
     *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to       send your mailings. 
     *Easy to use and operate 
     *Plus much more! 

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem). 

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE... 

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST $499.00! 

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS! 

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2 SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95! 

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!) 

       Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days FREE. 
        And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.


***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts! 

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you receive your program, you will also receive: 

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this. 

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme power that these programs offer.


***SPECIAL BONUS #2*** 

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!! 

     These HOT sellers include: 
     1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines 
     2) 70 Money Making Reports 
     3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!         ($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!) 


***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber" utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


***SPECIAL BONUS #4***

RECEIVE CHECKS BY EMAIL, PHONE OR FAX MACHINE. With this software
program, you can receive payment for your product or service INSTANTLY!!
There is no more waiting for your customers chec to arrive. This
software will no doubt, add to your sales, for customers who
don't have credit cards, as well as the impulse buyers.

With this software, you can print up your payments as soon as your
customer gives you his/her checking information. You will then
add the information given, to the proper blank check spaces, then
just print and go to the bank!!

         ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, visit our newly renovated web page at:
             
                  http://www.t-1net.com/floodgate      		

         ****************************************************

              HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY! 

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk email software
in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-341-2924

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 341-2924


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the 
software. If I am not fully delighted, I will 
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no
questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime technical support.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $3.00 for shipping charges.

______I am also interested in purchasing a "bomb-proof" email
address and Web page to use in my marketing letter and 
NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LOSING MY ISP. The cost of this service
is ONLY $70 per month. If you're interested in this service, PLEASE
contact David Taylor, Taylor Made Communications, 915-550-3039.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP__________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_______________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713








From whgiii at amaranth.com  Sun Sep  7 06:01:37 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:01:37 +0800
Subject: GAK Ploy
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970907121556.007502a4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709071252.IAA02112@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970907121556.007502a4 at pop.pipeline.com>, on 09/07/97 
   at 08:15 AM, John Young  said:

>   "There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
>   into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,"
>   said Robert Litt, a Deputy Assistant United States
>   Attorney.

Yeh, and the check is in the mail.




- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBKW1Y9Co1n+aLhhAQEraAQAzeOXJNzX5e9L0k5TkeiI6IUm0Fl3jvBJ
K84onVEwCLaqWkU5Q2rLJ48qyR8ZNF35nyhMmUxgRR+8PChvs2tAuRjn90gkedrK
xbrgf4dXmnwTvzmF+joKK9urPTOQdbm1mcfEsagVRNUQPbcF33REMAC7WJReiFvg
QSnzh9JQsas=
=/Wjl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep  7 21:55:17 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:55:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server?%
In-Reply-To: <19970908035217.14127.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net>
Message-ID: 


At 8:42 PM -0700 9/7/97, Martin M wrote:
>I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
>40-50 new message each day!
>
>Please someone reply!
>

Send unsuscibe messige! Do it now, I say.

(I have adjusted my message syntax to conform to the spelling and grammar
habits of the several new susribers.)


--Klaus



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep  7 07:22:19 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:22:19 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: 



Interesting article concerning monopoly telco's crying poor (as 
usual) and asking someone else, in this case citizens of the USA to 
help pay for our (Australia and ors) infrastructure 
development...unbelievable. 

Article by Andrea Evagora
 
[...]
>    In Australia, Telstra Corp. Ltd. (Melbourne) is dealing with a
[...]
>    This year, Telstra will lose US$10 million on providing Internet
>    circuits to the United States. By 2000, the total spending on
>    U.S.-bound Internet circuits from all non-U.S. service providers will
>    reach US$2.5 billion, Hibbard notes. "We are providing resources for
>    which we are not adequately compensated," he says. "At the same time,
>    I am offering U.S. users access to Australian databases without

_He_ is offering??? Just when did Hibbard start putting _his_ money 
where his mouth is? Of course Hibbard doesnt do this he is a paid 
employee doing a rather poor job. Australians are paying for this 
through their monopoly telco Telstra. 

>    getting a brass razoo." Hibbard explains that traffic from the United
>    States to Australia gets a free ride, as U.S. service providers aren't
>    contributing to the international connection.

Of course he could always pull the plug and then we'd see just how 
long the Telstra monopoly would last. Naturally the americans would 
be so eager to connect with us they'd gladly pay for a new US-Oz
cable after the free ride they've been getting till now.
    
[...]
>    Carriers that offer free local calls, such as Singapore Telecom Ltd.
>    and Telstra, are the most eager for change as they recoup little or no

Let me assure everyone that Telstra DOES NOT OFFER free local
calls. Our telephony costs in Australia are amongst the highest in the
world. We pay 25c for a local call plus monthly line rental, telephone
rental and connection charges. Its absolute bulldust to suggest they
make no money from the internet given the increase in the number of
calls a user makes once connected to the net. Telstra itself is an ISP
(through thier so called 'Big Pond' 'service'. Why do they bother if
it loses them money I wonder. Telstra try to run the timed local calls
crap every year or so as well and have managed to get enabling
legislation through parliament this year.

People want to connect to the US for a reason. At a rough guess 
perhaps it's because that's where a lot of the content is...geee 
rocket scientist stuff hey. The quotes from Hibbard clearly 
illustrate the cluelessness of Australia's monopoly telco executives 
and the anti-free market let someone else pay for it attitude (in 
this case the USA..i still can't believe the arrogance of this 
Hibbard freak) that pervades the organization. With twonks like this 
running the show no wonder he's concerned about our archaic 
infrastructure that is failing to meet the needs of the current age 
and will continue to fail due to poor forecasting and capital 
planning. 

Another good reason for Australian content developers to locate their
servers overseas.















From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep  7 07:24:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:24:10 +0800
Subject: GAK Ploy
Message-ID: <199709071403.QAA01830@basement.replay.com>




>    "There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
>    into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,"
>    said Robert Litt, a Deputy Assistant United States
>    Attorney.

Is this list turning into some kind of comedy club. Litt (rhymes with
..) couldn't lie straight in bed.

I spose implanting a nuclear devise up clit-ons ass doesn't 
necessarily mean that it will inevitably lead to it being turned 
on..just that most people would like to see that happen while he's in 
Washington DC.






From Debbie at aol.com  Sun Sep  7 22:25:08 1997
From: Debbie at aol.com (Debbie at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hi There!
Message-ID: <546891388220Pkk93756@worldnet.net>


Ladies & Gents.

Have you found the right on-line relationship yet?

We have assisted literally thousands of people like yourself find that special on-line relationship of their circuit dreams.

Our program is very unique.  You tell us what your interests are, and the type of person that you want to meet.  From this we can match you with people of the same interests and hobbies.  Our database lists thousands of members, which we can match you with.

This is a lifetime membership.  You can start and stop as often as you like.  Some want several relationships.  Others want just one real serious relationship.  It is all up to you.  A lot of these relationships have gone way past the keyboard.

Everything is completely confidential.  We let you and the other party know that we have matched you and your interests.  If both agree then we exchange Screen names or E-mail address for you.

Our lifetime membership is usually $69.95.
Because of the overwhelming response we are glad to offer you for one week only a lifetime membership for only $29.95. 

Once we receive your application, Our staff will get to work on it right away.  You can be in a new relationship in as little as one week.

Your happiness is our first priority.  We want you to tell your friends.

All you need to do to get started is to fill out the application at the bottom of the screen and mail it in with a check or money order to the address below.  Remember to let us know when you want us to stop sending you information on other members.


Thanks ahead for your order.


Screen name: or E-mail address:  ___________________________

City or Area you are from: _________________________________

Hobbies:   ______________________________________________

Interests: ________________________________________________

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From tm at dev.null  Sun Sep  7 07:32:55 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:32:55 +0800
Subject: InfoWar (The True Story of the InterNet / Part III)
Message-ID: <3412B48D.7DF0@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 27713 bytes
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URL: 

From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Sun Sep  7 08:01:37 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:01:37 +0800
Subject: Mandatory key escrow bill text, backed by FBI
Message-ID: <2e3be2bca962ac9df5adb7ddea7c3613@squirrel>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mike Duvos wrote:
> This is blatantly unconstitutional and breaks new ground that the
> government has never even dared hint at before.

> The true agenda of the GAKers has finally been disclosed to the
> American public.

> Next they will want copies of all of our house keys for the
> jackbooted thugs to hold, and emergency Assault Plungers in all our
> umbrella stands ready for the cops to ram up the citizens' assholes.

> This is not simply a proposed bill.  It is an ACT OF WAR.

> It is them or us.  I pick us.

How many divisions do we have?

You have probably done more with the Eternity Service already than you
can ever hope to do with weapons.

Our strong points are ideas both those expressed as code and those
expressed as English.  Ideas catch on with other people and then they
replicate.  Ideas are hard to subvert.  Ideas are what we are good at.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBGbmJaWtjSmRH/5AQGmsQf/R4mQ4AiMsHS1PnwDzfX2i3a2Jad/g1tj
zzNzgwEN8HaegZ1r2wT9/r874cMcVsziaHDH8YPfwRDU+LLAtGZ+OuzXbK+h8Qt7
z2XCNZ3pOcZV2/6i9t7ayWb3A7y4axzIFB9UT96hi0Z0SHaZM3y6zmiCPNfxLZDy
9b9SS0FF/HvBbBSzTtOovA9UtNpbKHgYjGyuxt06ySJu5ZLgnswNQSttDJP4LF2n
E8e8h8/lnzJCX6VISuvyyEKzvmGcYsvfnxPVoG1h4knLTgkkuIssrFUzmakGKPPp
SbhWdtv8FjBB5FvDisMhHijiqRn/bhd3G59vVkq5fBfWG7ffb3R2TQ==
=WbQ0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From brianbr at together.net  Sun Sep  7 08:08:40 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:08:40 +0800
Subject: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
Message-ID: <199709071500.LAA01932@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/7/97 4:48 AM, Apache (apache at bear.apana.org.au) passed this
wisdom:

>> 3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminali-
>> zation provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
>> Act bill or other legislation that will:
>...
>>  Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>>  providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>>  government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>>  trustworthiness implied by government approval.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>BWHAHAHA this is some kind of sick joke surely.

>Get ur crypto here folks, it's approved by the gubermint.

  Therein lies the problem, it actually would be funny, if it weren't
true. The sheeple will feel its good 'cuz it is *gummint 'proved* !!
And all the ignorant suits out their will lockstep ... when in doubt
nobody gets fired for buying *gummint approved* !!! THEN, the gummint
boys can come back and say "...look 92% of businesses went along with
it" as the raison d'etre for turning it into a mandate.  I tend to
think of this process as 'lemmings followed by a bulldozer'

   

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBLACMdZgC62U/gIEQISCgCeIqmbttUr4OJMW4IEvX5M5IcS3wIAoMdb
ec5/DGdCai/kac4R7hd+o4l7
=z941
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "to be yourself in a world that tries, night and day, to make you just
   like everybody else - is to fight the greatest battle there ever is to
   fight and keep on fighting"  - e.e. cummings







From 98789 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Sep  7 23:45:50 1997
From: 98789 at ix.netcom.com (24 hour playmates)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:45:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ADULTS ONLY
Message-ID: <19970907821SAA5716@post.ix.netcom.com>


FREE 5 MINUTE PREVIEW !!!

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the best content, best picture quality and the most beautiful models!

http://www.livehardcoresex.com

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If you would like to be removed from our mailing reply by "REMOVE" 
5





From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Sep  7 09:41:06 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:41:06 +0800
Subject: Prayer to A.M. Turing
In-Reply-To: <19970907.072429.3854.40.valdeez@juno.com>
Message-ID: <199709071632.RAA01927@server.test.net>




Monty Cantain writes:
> Oh Lord Turing, God of Messages and Pathways, please reduce the
> latency time of the remailer network!  Please accept this humble
> offering: 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51

Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
collide:

% hashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
collision: 0 bits
%

Adam
--

Have you exported RSA today?






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Sep  7 10:44:00 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:44:00 +0800
Subject: Cybercrime
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907172136.0082a66c@pop.pipeline.com>



The domestic arms control and disarmament agencies are 
booming. Here are samples of the tech-law-money-gov-mil
market which are both threatened and job-protected by 
strong encryption for communication and secrecy (like the 
traditional terrorists of ACDA and closed-session committees
warning of "terrifying" arms going to uncontrollable rogues):

The Department of Justice's Computer Crime and Intellectual
Property Section (CCIPS):

   http://jya.com/doj-ccips.htm

The FBI's Awareness of National Security Issues and Response
(ANSIR):

   http://jya.com/fbi-ansir.htm

National Counterintelligence Center's 1997 Report  on Foreign 
Information Collection and Industrial Espionage:

   http://jya.com/Na9757_1.htm

The Digital Copyright Clarification Bill (S.1146):

   http://jya.com/s1146.txt







From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Sep  7 11:16:13 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:16:13 +0800
Subject: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:35 pm -0400 on 9/3/97, Tim May wrote:


> I almost deleted these messages from Bob, but have decided to say a few
> words about financing companies "to help the Cypherpunks cause."

Frankly, I wish you had, we seem to get along better that way, something I
keep forgetting,  but here goes...

> To the contrary, I never write political and socioeconomic essays with the
> expectation that someone out there will be "making something for me."

So, you just write them in vaccuo? I doubt that. Nobody writes things so
that no one ever will ever read them. Especially when they post them to an
immediate potential audience of thousands, and their words are permanently
archived for posterity in at least 10 places. :-).

Even if you posted them here so no one would act on your suggestions -- the
best ones out there, I might add, because you've thought about all of these
things longer and harder than practically anyone in the world -- they still
have value, which is why I, for one, asked for them.


> But generating "VC funding requests" is most definitely not even in my Top
> Ten of reasons.

Of course not. However, it doesn't keep your best thinking on this from
having economic value, nonetheless...

> From Day One, I have not shied away from talking about interesting building
> blocks.

Which is why I asked for your opinion, besides to set a rhetorical trap for
you, of course. :-).

> I agree with this. Certainly for all of the chants about "Cypherpunks write
> code," and the several years worth of (apparently) several dozen folks here
> writing code of some sort, what are we really left with that has had a
> major effect?

Nothing. That's because it costs money to do, and the best people have to
work for a living. Well, most of the best people do, anyway. :-).

> Most of the code apparently being written either never makes
> it into products, or is buried deeply, or just evaporates (as code tends to
> do, a la bit rot). PGP, SSH, the remailer code, and a few other such
> achivements are what lasts.

Agreed. Just think, there would be more effort put into the exercise of
writing code if people could see reward for the risk of their time and
neurons. Frankly, for the best coders _qua_ coders, probably, the only
reward, after the inherent satisfaction of doing good work, in my opinion,
is money. Like Rhett Butler said in GWTW: "People say that money doesn't
buy happiness, but it usually does, and when it can't it can buy the most
interesting substitutes." I see your life, including your door-side stack
of assault rifles, to be reasonable proof of interesting substitutes at the
very least, myself. :-).

> I don't trash such efforts. Rather, I think it means that it is vitally
> important that we think carefully about what code is interesting and
> important. This beats the hell out of people just starting in at coding for
> the sake of coding.

Indeed. And, I claim that the very best barometer of what works is what
sells in the market.

> First, this grossly oversimplifies the process of funding companies.

If *I* knew what *you* knew? Someday, when I can afford the body armor, you
can give me the breifing. :-).

> Methinks Bob has read about Jim Clarke's decision to fund Andreesson and
> Company too many times. Rarely (very rarely) do the VCs hire people to
> write the code for some vision.

Well, frankly, I'm not after VC money, but we'll talk about that in a minute.

> Second, writing code is cheap, and requires almost no capital. No
> factories, no chip making machines, no clean rooms, etc. Just a bunch of
> people with ideas doing it themselves.  Nearly all successful software
> companies started out with almost no working capital.

Agreed. However, there is opportunity cost, measured not only in the time
invested on something else, but the return on the investment of doing that
other thing. "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative." As my old
Mizzou econ prof liked to beat us with. Frankly, if you're doing things for
the glory of the revolution, or to make the world free from nation-states,
or the joy of flight, that's cool, but it don't pay the rent. It may
temporarily focus your efforts more than if you're just trying to pay the
rent, certainly, but it won't actually keep the wolves from the door nearly
as well as a ducat or two will.

I other words, it may have been the joy of flight which motivated the
Wright Brothers, but it was coach fare to Cleveland which built the DC3 and
got the rest of us actually in the air.

> (By contrast, I've watched several "idea" companies which had the "grand
> vision" first and then sought to hire the hired guns to write the code. All
> four that I have followed failed.

Certainly a bass-ackward way to do it. Unfortunately, that's the way Disney
did it, or L.B. Mayer did it,  or Gates, or Edison, or Parekh did it. They
had a picture in their head of the way the world worked, or should work,
they did things, as cheaply as possible, which should work in that picture,
and they were right. They still invested something, is my point, whether it
was their money or their time, or their inspiration.

Just because your friends spent so much money doing what they wanted to do,
Tim, or doing the wrong thing because they didn't know how, doesn't mean
that economic enterprise shouldn't exist at all. There's something to be
said for heuristics, obviously, but I think your sample size is too small.

> A handful of
> these programmers seem to be truly gifted...the rest are, well, hackers. OK
> for churning out code with well-defined specifications (and even then the
> well known Brooks' Law sorts of factors can make some of them grossly
> unproductve). The few who seem really gifted would be fools to work for a
> pittance for me--and I'm not willing to give them their easily-gotten daily
> consulting rates for months on end, etc.

Frankly, gifted programmers are not the people who make money, Tim. Robert
Noyce may have been a gifted scientist once, but in the end it was his
ability to motivate people ("...don't expect to come here and have me solve
your problems. It's *your* ass.") that mattered. That and his ability to
understand the opportunities in his market.

> Fourth, in my years of Cypherpunks involvement, I have never seen any
> reasonable investment opportunities. This is not to say there have not been
> any, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Probably because as one of the few people around who understood what
constitutes an investment opportunity, you didn't create one?

> Side note:  What about C2 Net?  He probably--and I haven't
> checked with him on this--knew that the best opportunities were funded on a
> shoestring, by those involved directly, by those living the dream, and that
> diluting his ownership with outside funding would be a mistake. And this
> shoestring operation was able to more nimbly move to take advantage of
> opportunities, e.g., dropping the original focus on being a kind of "local
> ISP" (which is what I perceived the original CC to be) and to instead focus
> on SSLeay/Stronghold stuff.

Sameer is exactly my case in point. He decided, at the outset, to make
money, with as little investment as possible, from cryptography. He kept
looking, no, *creating*, opportunities in cryptography until he figured out
that financial cryptography was literally where the money was, and now he's
riding that pony for all it's worth.

Gates, Carnagie, Morgan, all those guys did the same thing.

> Other companies have sought funding in a grander way. E.g., PGP, Inc. I had
> no desire to invest in them, for various reasons. I wish them well, of
> course.

I look at PGP, Inc., as the second round of funding for Phil's Pretty Good
Software, Inc.. They have a product, they have a market, they have (mostly)
a managment, they needed money to go after much larger competition, like
RSA/DSI, and people with money trusted that they could do it. And, it's a
good bet, after a false start, that that's the case...

> Eric Hughes has a company, "Simple Access." To tell the truth, and in spite
> of Eric being a longtime friend of mine (since 1990 at least), I really
> have no idea what they do. The "www.sac.net" site is remarkably
> uninformative. Perhaps by design. In any case, I don't think investing
> money in this is what I want to do.

Rumor has it that they don't pay their bills, and have been stiffing
various suppliers ever since they started up. "You should think like an
illegal actor" indeed. I understand that there's enough in unpaid bills
from around the country at this point to call in the Feds, of all people,
onto SA, but most of the people holding the bag are politically opposed to
calling the cops. Kind of works out nice for Eric and Hilby, though it
makes for an interesting incentive to build one of your eternity-style
deadbeat servers, now that I think about it. It might explain why, in
addition to the reasons you've already outlined above, they haven't
actually gotten anything off the ground. What goes around comes around, and
all that.

> And there's Electric Communities (www.communities.com), containing several
> past or present Cypherpunks. I have a lot of hope from them, for
> "Microcosm," but,again, this is someone else's vision. It's too soon to
> tell if they have a killer app on their hands. If they do, then business
> magazines will write sage articles on the wisdom of the VCs. If not, as the
> odds must say is likelier, just by Bayesian odds, then they'll be
> forgotten, and the VC money will have just evaporated.

Agreed. However, you have to remember that probability works both ways. The
expected value of an investment, be it VC or not, has to be greater than
zero, or the money won't go there. That, I believe, is why we have
investors in technology, in particular cryptography.

It's why I also think that the largest investment opportunities in
cryptography will be in financial cryptography, which, I expect, requires
all the fun things that people here want to implement, anonymity,
unbreakable encryption, reputation sanction, the works, to exist in order
to work well. More to the point, all of this stuff will exist because it
will be the *cheapest* way to transact business on the net, probably by
several orders of magnitude over the way it's done now.

It's also why I think you, Tim, would be one of the best financial
cryptography investors on the planet. If you decide to "create" an
opportunity or two.

> Fifth, what I have seen from all of these experiences is that the popular
> impression of VC funding, that someone has a good idea, then finds a VC
> angel to provide seed funding, then worker bees are hired, etc., is
> basically wrong. Or at least a recipe for disaster.

Pretty much agreed. Like the old jewish shopkeeper's maxim: "First thing
you do, you get the money." That means customers, not investors. However,
in order to get customers, you have to have something to sell, which
requires an investment of some kind. Chicken and egg, maybe. That's
probably why some investors are willing to break the cycle if you can show
them where the money's going to come from. Frankly, if you sell them a
story instead of a market, they deserve to lose their money on you, and you
deserve to not get anyone's money anymore.

> The best growth opportunities come from nimble, mostly self-funded small
> teams that can learn in an evolutionary way, changing focus as failures
> occur and learning from mistakes. The worst growth opportunities come from
> "grand vision" situations.

Absolutely agree. Except of course, that those nimble self-funded small
teams have the most coherent "grand visions" in their head of anyone in the
market. They know what the world should be so well that even if nobody will
invest in their idea, they can make money with it.

"The first thing you do, get the money." However, coming from Intel, did
you notice that Intel had investors? Admittedly, software startups don't
need *that* much, money, as you've said. As long as the principals see
there's money to be made from their efforts in the long run. Or they want
to change the world. And, frankly, I think financial cryptography is the
best of both; you're getting paid to change the world.

> Sixth, we often forget that "history is written by the winners." We ask the
> five star general what his strategies were, forgetting that he became a
> general because he survived the battles and triumphed. Sort of like asking
> the Lottery winner what her strategy was....one will get answers, but they
> probably won't be useful.

Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc. Certainly. Warren Buffett talked in a Forbes
issue on portfolio managers a few years ago about a country of 268 million
chipanzees, where everyone is given a quarter, and every day the chimps
would pair off and flip coins, winner take all. After 28 days of
increasingly high-stakes "competition", a single winner would emerge, and
write a book titled "How I made $68 million in a month, working just
seconds a day".

However, like I said before, if the expected value of a given investement
is positive, then you can make money investing in enough investments just
like it, Tim, as you, of all people, know. It's not a zero sum game. That's
why it's called investing, and not gambling...

Lots of people who just go through the mechanics of "active" portfolio
management might as well invest in an index and let other people think
about such things.

However, Tim, my claim is that, as someone who knows more than practically
anyone else about this field and what it could do, you have the, forgive
me, "grand vision" thing down better than almost anyone. You invented most
of it, for starters. :-). It's one of the reasons this list is what it is,
vitriol and all. ;-). A selling point of the Schnelling Point, to torture
the language more than a little.

> Asking Jim Clarke or Bill Gates to opine on his strategies for success is
> not quite as pointless, but is not real useful either. Ask also Manny
> Fernandez about Gavilan Computer. Or ask the financiers of Ovation,
> Processor Technology, Mad Computers, Symbolics, Thinking Machines, Trilogy,
> or a hundred other examples of companies that burned through a billion
> dollars of hard-earned investor money.

I'm not so sure about that. Clearly, people like Clarke, or Gates, or lots
of other people, for that matter, know how to make money just by investing
their time and intuition into something. That skill is mostly learned, I
think. Gates' parents and family taught it to him, for instance, and it's
clear that somebody taught Clarke as well, or he wouldn't have been able to
do Netscape after SGI. Whether Clarke, or Gates, for that matter, can
continue to do so is anybody's guess, but clearly, they're making it
happen, or we wouldn't be talking about them.

I also believe that lots of other people who know almost what you know
about cryptography could learn a little about making a business, pick up a
lot of that financial cryptography that's on the floor, and make the stuff
we all think should happen faster than if they just wrote code for the
cause and hoped that people would use it. Money makes a good proxy for
measuring success, and it buys stuff too...

> Seventh, I have no doubt that if I issued a cattle call for programmers to
> write C code for some pet project I'd get some bites. The "burn rate" for a
> supported programmer is higher than the salary, of course. (Many will work
> for a share of the company, plus a living wage, but this of course means
> incorporation....not a simple matter of just offering to hire programmers.)

Yes, you have to actually spend money (in some form, even time) in order to
make money. And, frankly, if you spend enough time doing something well,
you'll probably make money too, in spite of your reason for doing things.
PRZ is a great example of this, which actually proves my point.

> Those small software companies I mentioned burned through $5 million in 3
> or so years, with nothing to show for it. And they sure did have the grand
> vision.

Well, if you count the odds of a single company succeeding, that's about
what you expect, right? However, if you looked at, say 30 of such
companies, even picking them at random would probably pay for your losses
from the ones which hit.

> Sorry, but I have no desire in even "giving away" a million bucks,
> let alone several.

I don't think I said anything about giving money away. I said that you, of
all people, know significantly more about cryptography, financial
cryptography in particular, that you would be a person who could make real
nice money investing in it. Unlike most investors who will be investing in
strong crypto and privacy, you are in a very good position to create your
own opportunities, instead of waiting for them to present themselves.

> In 1993 I elected to help fund a small startup with an
> extremely promising technology.  And that $65K investment
>necessitated my sale of
> $100K worth of various stocks, inclduding Intel, due to the income tax laws
> being what they are. That $100K worth of stock would now be worth $600K,
> roughly, given that Intel has gone from $15 to $100 in that period. C'est
> la vie.

The cost of anything is the foregone alternative. But, like Heinlein said,
"Of course the game is rigged. But, you can't win if you don't play."

> But is sure makes me more cautious about funding little startups.

Amen.

> And I for damned sure won't write out checks for people I only casually
> know from this mailing list and from occassional Cypherpunks meetings!!!)

I doubt that that's the way *you'd* invest in crypto at all. Nobody but
fools would do that. However, you, not being a fool, do know what to invest
in, and, more to the point, you'd be more likely to make the stuff you want
to happen if you were actively engaged, i.e., invested, in the process.
Given what you've done in your life so far, that is.

> I could easily spend $500K (costing me an actual $700K before taxes, less
> some tax deductions as a business, possibly) hiring a staff of several
> programmers for slightly more than a year. Then it'd be gone. Would a
> "product"  be ready? You tell me the odds.

Frankly, I think they'd be pretty good. Given what we've agreed before
about what to code being the most important part of coding. I also expect
that others with more money than time, would kick some in to make it happen.

> And what would come out of such an effort? I've watched a certain American
> living in Europe burn through most (and maybe all?) of his fortune, and
> (some say) his family's fortune, and he had the best of pedigrees and the
> best set of ideas there is. Now many of us quibble with the choices he
> made, in licensing, etc., but this should be a cautionary tale to anyone
> who thinks such funding is easy.

You're talking about David Chaum, of course. And hindsight, which is always
bullshit (my hindsight in particular ;-)), says that he should have worked
on financial cryptography, a field he invented, and let other people try to
be banks, and then software companies, and now credit card associations.
Dolby is his business model, not Citibank, or VISA.

> I'm not being defeatist. I know that sometimes a $500K investment could
> turn into tens of millions. It sometimes happens. But usually not, even for
> the proposals that get funded. (And VCs tend to look at 10 to 30 proposals
> for every one they actually fund, so the odds in the Cypherpunks pool ain't
> real great that even a single proposal would reach the funding stage, let
> alone turn into another Netscape or Yahoo.)

I think that the time has come to change the conventional wisdom on that.
In my opinion, there is enough cryptography out there, particularly
financial cryptography, that can be funded to see what sells. Stuff which,
by your own admission on this list as far back as 3 years ago, needs more
money than people can donate time for, though not as much as you thought
back then.

> No, I'm not a defeatist. But I worked very hard for many years, saving a
> large fraction of my paycheck and saving my purchased stock (including
> stock options, which were not as lucrative as popular myth might have
> it...what made them now worth so much money is that I didn't sell them when
> they became available, as so many of my coworkers did). I don't intend to
> blow through half a million or a million bucks a year funding some grand
> vision,

I think we're getting to the nub of things, here, and maybe a way to hone
the point a bit. I'm saying, for a lot of technology, that it may not cost
$500K. It might, because of the diseconomies of scale for internet software
and the lack of barriers to entry for the extremely clueful technology
folks out there, be possible to get a fully functional product to market
for as little as $250k, if you could figure out a way to standardize most
of the administrative/legal/financial cruft so that the current crop of
20-something proto-crypto-entrepreneurs could concentrate on getting stuff
done quickly. That, in fact, is what a bunch of us want to do with this
e$lab thing we're kicking around.

However, Tim, someone like you doesn't *need* something like e$lab (if
anyone does at all :-)). You already *know* how to invest in something
properly. You *know* who all the good people are and where all the bodies
are buried. And you clearly know how to squeeze a buck until it hollers.
Hell, you can even fight off an assault of black-nomex-clad ninja bill
collectors. :-). Finally, you probably could do it for significantly *less*
than that $250k...

Someone like you could go out there and find, or, better, build, something
which is just sitting at the edge of the cliff, full of kinetic energy
already, and kick it off onto the market's head. There's shitloads of that
stuff out there right now, and if you thought about it, you'd know more
about what to do, and how to do it, than anyone else. Anyone.

And, I claim, that *that* is the only way to *deploy* any of the stuff on
your list in any *useful* fashion quickly enough to stop the kinds of
totalitarian statism that seems to be afoot this week. If you make
something which saves people whole bunches of money and which uses strong
cryptography to do it, then privacy through strong cryptography isn't just
a good idea, it's a business necessity. Again, you're the person who can do
this best, I think.

> especially when there seem to be few grand visions that are
> realistic.

As the one person I know whose reality distortion field is bigger (and more
coherent, I might add) than mine (I'm also modest to a fault; ask me...), I
find this hard to believe. *Make* a grand vision which is realistic, if you
don't like what's out there. Frankly, you already have one. Just add money
and stir rapidly...

> (Plenty of zealots, though.)

So it seems. ;-).

> The Pagemaker team wrote it on a shoestring. No VCs until much later, when
> a product existed. (BTW, similar to the models for both PGP, Inc. and
> C2Net, where actual products are actually being sold or distributed.)

Exactly. However, in the case of Pagemaker, the shoestring was *paid* for.
That's why he made out like a bandit. Because he knew exactly what he
wanted, hired the programmers, told them what to write, and paid them for
their work, he *owned* the code when he was done.

This is exactly what I see you doing.

Same thing with C2NET. My bet is that, for the moment, at least, Sameer
owns it *all*, and, frankly, most of the people who work for him are just
happy to get paid to do what they love to do, because nobody's investing in
the market right now the way Sameer does. When people start to really
invest in the market, Sameer's going to have to offer stock options, like
Gates did, to keep people. But he's never going to need to get actual
investment from anyone ever, if he plays his card right. Of, course, like
Gates, he might have to go public someday if he's got too many option
holders. That's a nice problem to have, as I've said before.

My point, Tim, is that you could take any of the projects on your list, or
just the best one, and fund its development as cheaply as possible, on a
shoestring, and do exactly what Sameer or Gates did. Though obviously not
on the same scale as Gates, of course, but certainly the same mechanical
process, and with more than enough return on your investment.

> As it happens, I knew Adam Osbourne.

Great. So you know how to do it then.

> The problem with your "rhetorical traps," by your own admission, is that
> you just don't know what you're talking about in most cases, at least
> insofar as startups and funding go.

You may be right, and, frankly, at the moment, all I can do is bark at the
end of my rope about it. :-). Your uncanny talent for ad hominems aside, I
believe that my *analysis* of the situation is still valid, no matter my
motives or credentials to make it. Frankly, there are people with more than
enough credentials agreeing with me on a lot of this stuff. However, that
and a nickle, etc...

That analysis is that you, Tim May, the person who knows more about this
class of stuff than anyone out there, would, in my (completely unworthy
;-)) opinion, be an ideal person to make the right stuff happen. You have
the (if you'll pardon the aspersions on your character) "vision", you have
the knowlege, -- you even have the money -- to create your own
opportunities in cryptography, especially in financial cryptography, which
is the lever long enough to lift the world, as it were.

And it's a shame you don't just up and do it.

> I recall your "hothouse" VC proposal (I
> may have the name wrong, but the idea was the same as one of those hothouse
> schemes, with offices for budding entrepreneurs, etc.).

Yup. It's called e$lab, for the time being, and it's supposed to be modeled
on IdeaLab in Sacremento, and ThermoElectron, here in Massachusetts, and
it's purpose is to put together as many financial cryptography companies as
possible.  Thank you the plug, however backhanded. Just spell my name
right, or not, and I'll be happy. Any mention you can walk away from, and
all that...

> Maybe in another post I'll give my views on why such hothouse schemes are
> lousy ideas.

Wonderful. Love to hear it. Be prepared to stand in line for a little while
at the microphone, though... :-).

> But if yours is up and running and headed for success, I'll be
> happy to stand corrected.

I'd be happy to stand and correct you, someday, hopefully soon. If it
works, that is. Another nice problem to have. Certainly e$lab represents my
willingness to put people with money and business acumen together with
people who know financial cryptography until the people who know financial
cryptography have enough business accumen to teach it themselves.

Whether e$lab ends up a 'hothouse' in the model we've all come to know and
love remains to be seen. It doesn't mean we get to quit, though.

Sameer's original idea for C2NET didn't work, or his second, either, for
that matter. Microsoft isn't Traff-o-Data anymore. However, the "grand
vision" is still there, and I'm just as convinced that it's right as they
were of theirs...

> John chooses to do the things he chooses to do. He has more interest in, or
> faith in, the legal process. I have more interest in, or faith in, the
> expository process. I write about 100 times as much as he does. To each
> their own.

Indeed. Maybe we're circling around another important truth here. Mark
Twain made his name, and lots of money, writing. You don't need money, but
you've made your name by thinking, writing, and talking, for the most part.
Mark Twain spent horrendous chunks of his personal fortune on a supposedly
revolutionary printing press, or maybe it was a precursor to  the
typewriter, something like that. His famous quote, "Put all your eggs in
one basket. And watch the basket." comes from that experience.

Heck, maybe all *I'm* good for is shooting my mouth off too. (That and
conning people into doing fun projects, hopefully for money.) It would be
nice, someday, to have done a little more than that, though.

It could be that you're not tempermentally suited to invest your time,
effort, and money into strong cryptography as a business, even if you did
know more about where the future is and how to do it cheaper than anyone
else, as I believe you do.

> I won't get involved in Bob's seeming challenge to me to start matching
> John's investments.

I'm not challenging, per se. That's a little more effort than I'm capable
of. Wheedling might be more apt, but that's an undignified appelation for
my good intent, here. ;-).

> It costs money, but almost certainly not VC money. Take just one example,
> an offshore credit reporting agency not bound by U.S. restrictions under
> the FCRA. There is no need for a VC to fund this...this is best done "on a
> shoestring" by someone who starts small and expands.

Exactly my point. I think, myself, that venture vapital is probably an
industrial phenomenon, caused by transfer pricing inefficiencies in a
hierarchically organized, government controlled, capital market. (But,
that, of course, is an indecipherable jargon-pile for another day.)

I'm sure that someday -- after someone *else* makes a bunch of money
bootstrapping various successful financial cryptography companies --
venture capitalists will invest in financial cryptography. Maybe, if we
make something like e$lab work, somebody in the venture capital business
will want to play there some day, too.

Hopefully, if need to have a second round at all, shares in e$lab would be
stable -- and large -- enough to be more in line with straight up
institutional investment than venture capital. Again, a nice problem to
have. And maybe one we don't even need to have. e$lab may only be of a
certain size. Certainly if the investment's small enough and the returns
are large enough, and if every person in china gave us a nickle... :-).

> (Think of how Amazon.com got started. Lots of similar examples.)

Indeed.

> Personally, I would only get involved in such a thing if I lived offshore,
> as the government could otherwise come after me (even for funding such a
> thing). But the interesting pros and cons of such a project are well worth
> discussing. Maybe someone out there will do it.

I think that lots of what you want to do don't need to be done offshore,
and, remembering that whatever you do offshore still hangs your ass here
Stateside, if it can be proven, it doesn't help to be there much. People
like one of the Duty Free Shops partners, and a commodity trader in Zug,
Switzerland (Not to be confused with ZOG, Palestine :-)) come to mind. In
addition, there are lots of foriegn nationals trying to make some of this
"regulatory arbitrage" stuff happen as we speak.

Anyway, you yourself have said here, many times (check the archives ;-)),
that technology has to be built which is jurisdiction independant, anyway.
Besides, you've also said here, many times (check the arch)
that living offshore, except maybe for the nice weather in Anguilla, is not
what it would be cracked up to be for someone like you, anyway...

> (This space reserved for someone to chime in about Vince Cate's ISP
> operation in Anguilla.)

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, etc...

> Why don't you knock off the "Put up or shut up" kinds of remarks? It's
> never a good basis for investment, to respond to "dares."

My apologies. I'm not entirely sure I was "daring" you to do anything. And,
I agree that responding to a "dare" is not a rational investment strategy.
However, I bet that if you put some of your considerable expertise in both
investing and in cryptography, that you could figure out away to make a lot
of the stuff that we talk about here on this list real.

(Maybe, if I'm not careful and I keep bugging you enough, even assasination
markets. ;-))

> I'll say what I want to say. Maybe even someday a good investment will
> appear. But from what I've seen of the folks at gatherings I meet them at,
> few of them would be good candidates for a VC-funded approach.

Nope. More like a hands-on, bootstrap, create your own opportunity
approach, which is what I'm talking about. Something you could probably do,
and probably do better than anyone else out there, by virtue of having
created this "vision" we all want to see happen.

> No, what it shows is the power of small entrepreneurs doing very local
> things, with the things that succeed being all that we remember (the losers
> are forgotten).

Agreed, but again, that's not the point. The point is, that for a given
amount of money, time, and determination, more money is made than is
invested over all. And, frankly, I do not believe that people like Sameer
is "lucky" (heh...) anyway. He made his luck by not giving up on making
money with privacy and cryptography. What he found was the most money can
be made in financial cryptography, which is, oddly enough, the way to make
the most privacy happen as well. Funny how that economics stuff works...

> Yeah, well let us know when "e$lab" gets really rolling.

As Telulah Bankhead said to Chico Marx under lewd circumstances: "And so
you shall, you old fashioned boy"...

> Personally, I
> think you undercut your own significance by the heavy reliance on cutesy
> names centering around "$" in place of "s," as in "e-$pam" and "e$lab."
> Cutesy wears thin fast.

Cutsey may be as cutesy does, but heavy reliance on it or not, it's not
nearly as skinny a gambit as periodically calling for "somebody" to
suitcase nuke Washington, however pleasant the prospect may be to some of
us on occasion.

> In the meantime, knock off with the dares.

Admittedly, I did not play fair back there. When one bangs on the cage of a
900 lb gorilla with a stick, one should expect a little shit thrown in
one's face in return...

I mean, not that you're a gorilla or anything, Tim. Or 900 pounds. Or even
throw shit, for that matter, but, well, maybe I better quit, now...

> Maybe we should just mutually ignore each other for a while.

Sounds like a good idea. I keep forgetting that when we try to engage in
civil discourse, I say something that pisses you off and my throat gets
ripped out...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From declan at pathfinder.com  Sun Sep  7 12:44:22 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:44:22 +0800
Subject: BXA Testimony at SAFE Hearing
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906234350.00705f64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



Keep in mind that what you have is prepared testimony, written sometimes
days before the guy actually speaks, often by his assistant. Often folks
depart from it substantially; sometimes they ignore it completely. 

The most interesting part of a hearing is the back-and-forth q&a period
where folks have to depart from prepared text and think on their feet. For
that you need the transcript.

-Declan


On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> See William Reinsch's testimony on the administration's 
> encryption policy at the September 4 SAFE hearing:
> 
>    http://jya.com/bxa090497.htm
> 
> Perhaps dissimulating, or not then clued to the draft GAK bill,
> Reinsch states:
> 
> 1. Foreign crypto products are not as widely available as export
> control critics claim, and thus do not threaten US products.
> 
> 2. The administration is against mandatory key escrow.
> 
> 3. Finds the SAFE bill unhelpful but likes its crypto-criminalization
> provision and favors McCain-Kerrey's Secure Public Network 
> Act bill or other legislation that will:
> 
>   Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose 
>   any type or strength of encryption.
> 
>   Explicitly state that participation in a key management 
>   infrastructure is voluntary .
> 
>   Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
>   information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
>   authority and provide liability protection for key recovery 
>   agents who have properly released such information.
> 
>   Criminalize the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
>   further a crime. 	  
> 
>   Offer, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of 
>   providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain 
>   government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>   trustworthiness implied by government approval.
> 
> ----------
> 
> Leads to the testimony of NSA's Cowell and Justice's Litt would
> be appreciated.
> 
> Representative Weldon remarked at length about encryption and
> defense matters on September 4, supporting the administration's
> policy:
> 
>    http://jya.com/weldon.txt  (46K)
> 
> 






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sun Sep  7 12:48:45 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:48:45 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




 >me neither... it's fucking mind-boggling....
> >and where's all the 'censorship' people????
> >it's like -- no one can make the 'connection' ....
> >the CDA and FCA lists are dead ... not a word ...
> >how can we all have wet powder at the same time?
> 

The CDA list has been moribund since its inception. A waste of time. My
list, f-c-a, has covered recent crypto events exhaustively. Even those who
are far from cypherpunkish in their views enjoy it; Mike Nelson, a former
White House crypto-lobbyist, told me at my party yesterday that it was the
best list of its type out there.

http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

-Declan








From azur at netcom.com  Sun Sep  7 12:53:42 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:53:42 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part I), was Democracy is thetrue enemy...
In-Reply-To: <199709061824.NAA23842@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



I think this discussion regarding democracy vs. anarchy is misguided.  It
may be more important recognizing where the control of democratic
government is lodged.  The following excerpts, from the Soverign
Individual, make an excellent case that democracy is not in and of itself
the primary cause of many of our objections, but rather the means of
democracy.

--------

			WHO CONTROLS GOVERNMENT?

The question of who controls the government has almost always been asked as
a political question. It has had many answers, but almost uniformly these
involved identifying the political party, group, or faction that dominated
the control of a particular state at a particular moment. You probably have
not heard much about a government controlled by its customers. Thinking
about government as an economic unit leads on to analyze the control of
government in economic rather than political terms.

In this view, there are three basic alternatives in the control of
government, each of which entails a fundamentally different set of
incentives: proprietors, employees, and customers.

Proprietors

In rare cases governments are sometimes controlled by a proprietor, usually
a hereditary leader who for all intents and purposes owns the country. For
example, the Sultan of Brunei treats the government of Brunei somewhat like
a proprietorship.

Governments controlled by proprietors have strong incentives to reduce the
costs of providing protection or monopolizing violence in a given area. But
so long as their rule is secure, they have little incentive to reduce the
price (tax) they charge their customers below the rate that optimizes
revenues. The higher the price a monopolist can charge, and the lower his
actual costs, the greater the profit he will make.

Employees

It is easy to characterize the incentives that prevail for governments
controlled by their employees. They would be similar incentives in other
employee-controlled organizations. First and foremost, employee-run
organizations tend to favor any policy that increases employment and oppose
measures which reduce jobs. A government controlled by its employees would
seldom have incentives to either reduce the costs of government or the
price charged to their customers. However, where conditions impose strong
price resistance, in the form of opposition to higher taxes, governments
controlled by employees would be more likely to let their revenues fall
below their outlays than to cut their outlays. In other words, their
incentives imply that they may be inclined toward chronic deficits, as
governments controlled by proprietors would not be.

Customers

The medieval merchant republics, like Venice, examples of governments
controlled by their customers. There a group of wholesale merchants who
required protection effectively controlled the government for centuries.
They were genuinely customers for the protection service government
provided, not proprietors. They paid for the service. They did not seek to
profit from their control of government's monopoly of violence. If some
did, they were prevented from doing so by the other customers for long
periods of time. Other examples of governments controlled by their
customers include democracies and republics with limited franchise, such as
the ancient democracies, or the American republic in its founding period.
At that time, only those who paid for the government, about 10 percent of
the population, were allowed to vote.

Governments controlled by their customers, like those of proprietors, have
incentives to reduce their operating costs as far as possible. But unlike
governments controlled by either proprietors or employees, governments
actually controlled by their customers have incentives to hold down the
prices they charge. Where customers rule, governments are lean and
generally unobtrusive, with low operating costs, minimal employment, and
low taxes. A government controlled by its customers sets tax rates not to
optimize the amount the government can collect but rather to optimize the
amount that the customers can retain. Like typical enterprises in
competitive markets, even a monopoly controlled by its customers would be
compelled to move toward efficiency. It would not be able to charge a
price, in the form of taxes, that exceeded costs by more than a bare margin.

--------








From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Sep  7 15:08:12 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:08:12 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907214653.0083ec48@pop.pipeline.com>



Declan wrote:

>The CDA list has been moribund since its inception. A waste of time. My
>list, f-c-a, has covered recent crypto events exhaustively. Even those who
>are far from cypherpunkish in their views enjoy it; Mike Nelson, a former
>White House crypto-lobbyist, told me at my party yesterday that it was the
>best list of its type out there.
>
>http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/


Gosh, Declan, isn't Mike Nelson's endorsement a bit awkward
for an fight-censorship list? Not to mention his show and slather
the host at your do?

That's assuming your bash was not a Time-reimbursible. If
it was, then the WH rub-down and suck-up fits, and may god 
deliver the heaven-on-earth reward: White House Correspondent,
spin navvy to the free world leader.







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Sun Sep  7 15:26:28 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:26:28 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <199709072216.PAA12754@sirius.infonex.com>




Tim May espoused:
> I'm surprised this wasn't hushed up. The U.S. intelligence community has
> known this for a long time, and reports to Congress have alluded to this.

  Why hush it up? Odd, isn't it, that this interview will air on TV just
as Freeh is pushing for mandatory GAK to 'protect' us from nuclear terrorists 
with suitcase bombs? I bet it's just one of them coincidences...

SynchronicityMonger






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Sep  7 15:29:16 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:29:16 +0800
Subject: Cryptoast Novel: Flame War
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970907220745.0083f92c@pop.pipeline.com>



Flame War, by Jonathan Quittner and Michelle Slatalla,
William Morrow, New York, 1997. 291 pp. $24.00
ISBN 0-688-14366-0

Jacket blurb:

As the U.S. Congress prepares to adopt a state-of-the-art
encryption program with a secret key that would allow
government access to all electronic communications, a
brilliant codemaker stands ready to expose the program's
critical flaw. Together with a determined band of
cypherpunks and hacker activists, he plans to unveil his
own code, which will ensure the privacy of all communication
on the Internet -- and that not even the government will
hold the key.

Fresh out of law school, Harry Garnet walks straight into
trouble when he accidentally delivers a deadly diskette
that explodes inside the computer of a mathematics
professor -- and kills him. In the aftermath, Harry joins
up with the man's clever daughter, Annie Ames, to track
the killer. Ther journey leads from a sleepy Adirondack
town to New York city, where -- with the inadvertent help
of Harry's scheming hacker friend Blaney -- Harry learns 
of the professor's connection to the anarchists and computer
phreaks who make up the underground Urban Crypto Militia.

The group's leader, Lionel Sullivan, is as talented a
codemaker as the professor had been. As the only one of
the bomber's intended victims who has managed to survive,
he can also offer Harry and Anne crucial insights into the
killer's motives. But it's not long before the bomber strikes
again -- this time against Harry and Annie, who still possess
the professor's secret computer files.

In a riveting race agaisnt time, Harry and Annie must navigate
secret networks and on-line fantasy worlds as they struggle to
unlock the professor's final message. It seems to point to a
fatal crack in the Patriot encryption program, which is about
to become the national standard -- and which Lionel and his
group are about to challenge in a dramatic showdown. Unless
the bomber gets to them first.

Jonathan Quittner and Michelle Slatalla's last book, a non-
fiction account of rival teenage gangs in cyberspace, was widely
praised for its novelistic texture and fast pace. Now, in
Flame War, they use their keen jounalistic instincts and eye
for detail to create a fictional world that's as fresh as
today's news -- and a climax that's plausible enough that it
could become tomorrow's headlines.

------

Joshua Quittner creted the website The Netly News and is a
columnist for Time magazine. Michelle Slatalla's work has
appeared in Wired magazine, among others, and has been
syndicated in two hundred newspapers nationwide. Together,
they are the authors of Masters of Deception: The Gang
That Ruled Cyberspace. The live on Long Island, New York,
with their two daughters (and another one on the way).







From hanne at squirrel.owl.de  Sun Sep  7 17:21:11 1997
From: hanne at squirrel.owl.de (Johannes Kroeger)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:21:11 +0800
Subject: Weasel nymserver closed due to child porn investigation
Message-ID: <19970907224816.29967@squirrel.owl.de>

On Monday, September 1st, 1997, a police officer from the German
"Internet Patrol" in Munich contacted my provider and me by phone
and informed us that he investigates a case of child pornography
posted through weasel.owl.de and the nym.alias.net mail-to-news
gateway on August 17th.  Today my provider officially told me to
close my nymserver because they fear legal hassles if more illegal
material is sent from weasel during the present investigations.

I've taken the following measures to comply with their request:

1.  Mail to send at weasel.owl.de bounces with the error message:
"Sending mail from weasel.owl.de is disabled until further notice."
Remailer operators, please add send at weasel.owl.de to your destination
block lists.

2.  Weasel.owl.de does not allow creation of new accounts.

3.  Mail to weasel.owl.de users will be remailed as usual, until I
have transferred the accounts to another nymserver.  I would be very
grateful if the admins of nym.alias.net or anon.efga.org are willing
to host weasel's nyms until the investigations are closed and weasel
is hopefully up again.

Last but not least: the only police contact until now was by phone;
neither my provider nor I were forced to copy or decrypt anything.

-- 
Johannes Kroeger		
Send mail with subject "send pgp-key" to get my PGP key

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From tm at dev.null  Sun Sep  7 17:31:46 1997
From: tm at dev.null (CypherPunks Chief SpokesPerson)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:31:46 +0800
Subject: CypherPunks Theology (Required Reading)
Message-ID: <34134502.273@dev.null>



[headers didn't exist yet]
   
   In the beginning, God created the bit. And the bit was a zero.
   
   On the first day, he toggled the 0 to 1, and the Universe was.  (In
those days, bootstrap loaders were simple, and "active low" signals 
didn't yet exist.)
   
   On the second day, God's boss wanted a demo, and tried to read the 
bit.
This being volatile memory, the bit reverted to a 0. And the universe
wasn't. God learned the importance of backups and memory refresh, and 
spent the rest of the day (and his first all-nighter) reinstalling the 
universe.
   
   On the third day, the bit cried "Oh, Lord! If you exist, give me a
sign!" And God created rev 2.0 of the bit, even better than the original
prototype. Those in Universe Marketing immediately realized that "new 
and improved" wouldn't do justice to such a grand and glorious creation.
   And so it was dubbed the Most Significant Bit.  Many bits followed, 
but only one was so honored.
   
   On the fourth day, God created a simple ALU with 'add' and 'logical
shift' instructions. And the original bit discove red that -- by 
performing a single shift instruction -- it could become the Most 
Significant Bit.
And God realized the importance of computer security.
   
   On the fifth day, God created the first mid-life kicker, rev 2.0 of 
the ALU, with wonderful features, and said "Forget that add and shift 
stuff.
Go forth and multiply."  And God saw that it was good.
   
   On the sixth day, God got a bit overconfident, and invented 
pipelines, register hazards, optimizing compilers, crosstalk, 
restartable instructions, micro interrupts, race conditions, and 
propagation delays.
Historians have used this to convincingly argue that the sixth day 
must have been a Monday.
   
   On the seventh day, an engineering change introduced Windows into 
the Universe, and it hasn't worked right since.






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Sep  7 18:44:52 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:44:52 +0800
Subject: Denning-Baugh on Crypto Crime
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970908012348.00b26190@pop.pipeline.com>



See Dorothy Denning and William Baugh's testimony on
organized crime and terrorist use of crypto at Senator Kyl's 
September 3 hearing: 

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Denning-Baugh-Testimony.txt






From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Sun Sep  7 19:13:06 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:13:06 +0800
Subject: Weasel nymserver closed due to child porn investigation
In-Reply-To: <19970907224816.29967@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199709080205.MAA11874@bear.apana.org.au>




> On Monday, September 1st, 1997, a police officer from the German
> "Internet Patrol" in Munich contacted my provider and me by phone

Where r the pigs from the Internet Patrol when u need them. Only last 
week I was mugged on my way to a server.






From azur at netcom.com  Sun Sep  7 19:45:13 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:45:13 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is thetrue enemy...
Message-ID: 



Many, beginning with de Toquivelle, have noted that democracy brings with
it the unhappy possibility of a tyranny of the majority.  The reasons for
this shortcoming are closely tied to the decision of whom within the
democracy receives the franchise and how in a representative democracy
officeholders are elected.

Our elections are corrupted by bribery - not the big money paid to
candidates by corporate donors, but the taxpayers' money offered to voters
by the candidates themselves.

For some reason, campaign finance reform always centers on private money,
as if it were perfectly OK to use public money to buy elections. Yet
critics of democracy, including friendly critics, have always pointed out
that the Achilles' heel of democracy is its tendency to turn the ballot box
into an instrument of plunder, as voters learn to vote for those who
promise them other people's money.

One of the justifications for democracy is that everyone's interest should
be represented in government. But there are interests and interests. The
homeowner who locks his door is looking out for his own interest just as
much as the burglar who picks the lock, but not exactly in the same way.
The voter who wants to keep his own money isn't seeking the same thing as
the voter who wants the state to give him someone else's money.

The darkest warnings of democracy's critics are being furfilled, precisely
because of entitlement programs that already exist, which are driving the
federal government into an abyss of debt.  Touching the big entitlement
programs - the ones available to the middle class - is "political suicide."
The president exploits this fact when he plays chicken with Republicans who
want to reform those programs. All of which shows that we really know that
democracy's critics were right. Too many voters are already bought - not by
corporate campaign donors, but by the government itself. Worst of all, we
accept this as normal, healthy politics even as it threatens to ruin us.

Curbing private spending is a superficial reform that may even backfire
eliminating the equalizing power of private money thereby increasing the
advantages of incumbency. The only reform that could really help would be
to curb the buying of votes with government money. That means following the
counsel of the philosopher John Stuart Mill, and limiting the franchise to
taxpayers who don't get income from the government.

This means that if you receive money from the federal (or state, or local)
government, you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the next federal (or state,
or local) election. This is no more an insult to the voter than dismissal
cause is an insult to a prospective juror. It's a precaution in the
interest protecting the integrity of the electoral process - and a
precaution we should have taken long ago, before fiscal responsibility
became "political suicide."







From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  7 20:27:49 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:27:49 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem
Message-ID: <19970908030857.4949.qmail@hotmail.com>



>At 12:37 AM 9/6/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>GCC(Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem)
>>GCC uses the newest chaos logic and is conventional cryptosystem 
>>stream cipher encryption. It is high speed and allows variable-length 
keys,
>>making it very reliable and suitable for use in multimedia.
>>http://www.iisi.co.jp/reserch/GCC-over.htm
>>[Products using it, user-friendliness, etc.]
>
>Good user interfaces and high speed are important, but not enough.
>How strong is the cypher?  Where is the academic research behind it?
>What is the algorithm?  Why should we trust it?  Who else has tested 
it?
>Other people have built cyphers based on chaotic systems, and found
>they were weak when analyzed properly.  Building good cryptosystems is
>difficult.
>
>The web page doesn't give any details about the algorithm,
>except saying that it uses chaos and strange attractors,
>uses variable-length keys, and has a structure that uses
>XOR of the stream cypher with the plaintext.
>It does say the algorithm has a 0-1 balance of 0.5/0.5 
>(which any good cryptosystems do) and has a medium-sized state space 
(2**96).
>
>It claims that because it's a one-way stream cypher, that makes it
>safe against chosen plaintext attacks.  That's not true.
>Choose a plaintext of all zeros, and that gives you the
>output of the chaotic system which you can analyze for patterns.
>If you know the structure of the chaotic system, you can
>analyze the mathematics to see how to find the state space,
>and how to find the future output from the current output and
>the state space - if the algorithm is strong, this is difficult,
>but if the algorithm is weak, this is easy.  If you don't publish
>the algorithm, nobody can prove that it's strong, and in the
>world of cryptosystems, that means nobody will trust it,
>because we know how weak many other strong-looking algorithms are.
>
>
>
Please see http://arrirs02.uta.edu/ccc/upcoming.html.
and,I have thesis of this algorithm write in Japanese language.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From Syniker at aol.com  Sun Sep  7 21:10:20 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:10:20 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
Message-ID: <970907234651_658096879@emout11.mail.aol.com>



whooooppssss
I DO have to retract what I said about F-C-A...
and better do it here...
I get lot's of my first info from Declan
on that list -- as in this weeks calif legislature vote
and I DO appreciate it
and would call it invaluable, for all of us, I'm sure...

sorry dec.........larry.






From mgmicro at usa.net  Sun Sep  7 21:22:36 1997
From: mgmicro at usa.net (Martin M)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:22:36 +0800
Subject: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server ?%
Message-ID: <19970908035217.14127.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net>



I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
40-50 new message each day!

Please someone reply!

Martin
mgmicro at usa.net 






From opportunities at spfcorp.com  Mon Sep  8 12:22:55 1997
From: opportunities at spfcorp.com (opportunities at spfcorp.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Equipment Financing Broker Oppt'y
Message-ID: <199709081931.PAA13191@qlink2info.qlink2info.com>



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Tel: 305-870-0710

To avoid future mailings please type "Remove" 
in the subject box & email it back to us.






From brandy212 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  8 12:24:07 1997
From: brandy212 at hotmail.com (brandy212 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: XXXX 1800 Free Sex Sites..Go 4 Free
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@hotmail.com>


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From tm at dev.null  Sun Sep  7 21:28:57 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:28:57 +0800
Subject: InfoWar (2) / Part III of The True Story of the InterNet
Message-ID: <3413798B.31E0@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 12329 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep  7 23:19:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:19:18 +0800
Subject: Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <199709080605.IAA15001@basement.replay.com>



Chief Cypherpunks Spokesperson Mixmaster wrote:
> 
> Tim May espoused:
> > I'm surprised this wasn't hushed up. The U.S. lying fucks 
> > intelligence community has known this for a long time, and reports
> > to Ratfuck Congress have alluded to this.
> 
>   Why hush it up? Odd, isn't it, that this interview will air on TV 
> just as Lying Fuck Freeh is pushing for mandatory GAK to 'protect' us
> from imaginary nuclear terrorists with suitcase bombs? I bet it's 
> just one of them coincidences...
> 
> SynchronicityMonger

Lying Nazi Ratfucker Freeh has known about these allegations for a long
time, but it seems that it was not much of a threat until the release
of the book by his co-conspirator schill, the Russian General.
Isn't it amazing how long-standing threats to National Security only
become _real_ threats when it is convenient for those in power?

It was only a 'coincidence' that I happened to be standing in that bank
that had been broken into, with a handful of cash.

SynchronicityCriminal







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep  7 23:22:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:22:05 +0800
Subject: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server ?%
Message-ID: <199709080606.IAA15081@basement.replay.com>



Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson Martin M wrote:
> 
> I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
> 40-50 new message each day!
> 
> Please someone reply!

Martin,
 If you are retiring as Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson then I guess
we will have to hold a new election. Do you have anyone in mind as
your replacement?

A Registered Cypherpunk Voter







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Sep  7 23:38:28 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:38:28 +0800
Subject: Redhat crypto archive on replay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970906022308.006b6d14@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970907230204.006ba074@popd.ix.netcom.com>



I forget where I saw the below message announcing stext for Linux,
but there is a nice collection of crypto packages at
http://www.replay.com/redhat .
Unfortunately, they're in RedHat Package Manager format,
so they may be a shade difficult to use for non-Redhat users,
but Redhat does seem to be a fairly popular Linux flavor.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Hans Zoebelein 
>To: redhat-announce-list at redhat.com
>Subject: stext-1.0 stegano crypto package uploaded
>Resent-Date: 4 Sep 1997 03:28:09 -0000
>
>Hi, 
>
>there is a nice crypto rpm, which uses steganograpic techniques
>to hide a file in another text file which looks like normal text.
>
>The packages are stext-1.0-1.i386.rpm and stext-1.01.src.rpm 
>Binary and source should be dloadable from 
>
>http://www.replay.com/redhat 
>
>the next days. Or check ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/linux/redhat.
>This package might be useful to handle crypted files in countries,
>where authorities love their citizens so much, that they want to 
>know everything about them and have forbidden strong crypto 
>(Hello China, Bon Jour France :)
>
>Enjoy!
>Hans
>
>Hans Zoebelein              * You are interested in Linux blind support?
>zocki at goldfish.cube.net     * Join the blinux mailing list and mail to:
>"Please enter my parlor!"   * blinux-list-request at redhat.com
> said the spider to the fly.* with subject line: subscribe
>
>
>






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  8 00:46:46 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:46:46 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>



Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm

1.key input
2.input key generate chaos initial condition
3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
  XOR plain text



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Mon Sep  8 01:55:24 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:55:24 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm

[...]

> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
>   XOR plain text

Wouldn't it be a good idear to use some sort of feed back method?

-- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Mon Sep  8 02:07:40 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:07:40 +0800
Subject: Miscellaneous Debris
Message-ID: <199709080856.EAA15266@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




Our old pinko buddy Vigdor Schriebman is the latest to attack Old Media's
definitions of "journalist" at

http://www.MediaINFO.com/ephome/news/newshtm/stories/090597n3.htm


Another self-contradicting bunch of viewpoints on net.telephony at

http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/1997/09/0905telco.html


New technology being put to old tricks as students plaigarize at

http://cnn.com/TECH/9709/07/illicit.papers/index.html


"The Internet Ushers In New Age Of Personal Diplomacy" at 

http://www.infotech.co.nz/current/ntchil.html
               
          "Individuals around the globe can reach a consensus and make
          contact with others despite the differing political views of
          their governments. They can become "personal ambassadors" for
          their countries."
                       

And the Infowarspooks are back for another round of "the Internet is so
important the government needs to do SOMETHING" at

http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/090697/info7_3765_noframes.html


Enjoy! All of the above links courtesy of http://www.newslinx.com/

--
Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet
"Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine
People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep  8 02:09:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:09:19 +0800
Subject: Suitcase for sale - $1,000,000
Message-ID: <199709080845.KAA01381@basement.replay.com>



Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.

For details contact: toto at sk.sympatico.ca



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From asgaard at cor.sos.sll.se  Mon Sep  8 04:19:16 1997
From: asgaard at cor.sos.sll.se (Asgaard)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:19:16 +0800
Subject: FVG ??
Message-ID: 




http://www.fvg.com

In Santa Fe (?).

What kind of joke is that?

Is this what Java is for??


Asgaard






From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep  8 04:30:22 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:30:22 +0800
Subject: GAK Hits
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970908111028.00810a5c@pop.pipeline.com>



Blasts of the GAK plot, maybe genuine, more likely appeals
for be-quiet-honey NDA-money:

   http://jya.com/gak-news.txt







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Sep  8 05:14:53 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:14:53 +0800
Subject: Online Casino - REAL MONEY!!
Message-ID: <6LLPce76w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



How kosher is this:

]Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:51:06 -0400 (EDT)
]From: mxzr2 at savetrees.com
]Subject: Online Casino - REAL MONEY!!
]Reply-To: mxzr2 at savetrees.com
]
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]
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]
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]
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]
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]
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]
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]
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]
]
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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep  8 05:15:35 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:15:35 +0800
Subject: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970908120000.00847990@pop.pipeline.com>



Tim and Bob's exchanges are quite informative, and may
their disagreements flower, for, as the solon said, the truth
comes out by hammer blows, not sweettalk.

I'd cite today's NYT article on brokers who find lucrative work
for programmers. The firm featured today is based
in Tim's area, Los Gatos.

The article describes the change in programmers' status
from talented, dutiful employees -- a small few of whom get
a big payoff with stock options, though most don't -- to 
free-lancers getting large fees for short-time work, up to
$200/hr and $300,000 per year. Not that all do so well.

It's a nice change from stories about the legal-financial
fairy tales about tough-minded start-ups and skeptical
VCs who never seem to actually risk nearly as much as 
those peddling all-they've-got codemaking talent.

Still, the talent-brokers, what do they do that the money
guys don't do better, except perhaps lay on the poor-baby, 
let me help you screw yourself on my behalf, thicker,
like all cream-skimmers and honey-pot raiders?







From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep  8 05:40:11 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:40:11 +0800
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-9709-08-compuserve-
Message-ID: <199709081244.HAA01368@einstein.ssz.com>



   
   
   More privacy and security with QUALCOMM's CDMA digital wireless
   phones. CLICK HERE [INLINE] Deals CompuServe 
   CompuServe, AOL in deal
   
   
   WorldCom buys CompuServe for $1.2 billion, to flip part to AOL
   
   
   September 8, 1997: 7:29 a.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   CompuServe cuts losses - August 20, 1997
   
   CompuServe tests flat rate - July 21, 1997
   
   
   [IMAGE]
   
   CompuServe
   
   America Online
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   NEW YORK (CNNfn) - H&R Block said Monday it will sell its 80 percent
   stake in CompuServe to WorldCom Inc. for about $1.2 billion in a
   complex deal which will ultimately turn over CompuServe's content and
   subscribers to America Online.
   [INLINE] Under the deal, CompuServe shareholders, including H&R Block,
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   [INLINE] After that deal is completed, WorldCom will turn around and
   give AOL all the CompuServe content assets and subscribers plus $175
   million in exchange for AOL's Advanced Networks and Services division,
   which supplies about one-third of the network capacity for AOL's own
   customers.
   [INLINE] The deal will add CompuServe's approximately 5 million home
   and business subscribers to AOL's pool of about 8 million customers.
   AOL is the world's largest online service provider.
   [INLINE] WorldCom, a business telecommunications company based in
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   such as intranets.
   [INLINE] The deal ends AOL's long journey toward acquiring its online
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   [INLINE] The deal will now face regulatory review and could possibly
   trigger concerns over AOL's largely increased market share. Link to
   top 
   -- Randy Schultz
   
   
   
   home | deals | hot stories | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep  8 05:40:14 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:40:14 +0800
Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709081240.HAA01326@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:48:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ray Arachelian 
> Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)

> There has been quite an interest in EMP.

> pulses to a near miss lightning strike. As far as vehicle disabling, There
> are claims that auto manufactures have built in a shut down frequency into
> the computers in certain vehicles. We wound a large coil on a carpet paper
> tube and put an oscillator on it and it would flood a vehicles electrical
> system to shut it down, but it was huge.

Mind being a little more specific?...

 -  What was the dimension of the coil you used?

 -  What was the frequency and amplitude of your signal?

 -  What model of car and it's computer did you test?

 -  What was the orientation and position of the coil when it worked
    and when it didn't?

> The easiest way to learn about
> EMP is to find the International TESLA society web site and interpret the
> information there.

Some of the best sources are ECM & EECM texts/sites.

While it is a good source of technical info it does take a bull-shit
detector set to full to sift through all the other detritis the ITS wallows
in. Space aliens, hollow earth, over-unity power, etc.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Mon Sep  8 20:58:43 1997
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:58:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Infoworld and Denning's study
Message-ID: <87377748221122@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>


 
>Infoworld NZ has just published an awful article (written by US reporter Sari 
>Kalin and titled "Criminals Eyeing Encryption"), which emphasises repeatedly 
>that encryption is a major problem just waiting to happen, using Dorothy 
>Dennings report as a basis.  This represents a rather ugly way to interpret 
>the report (and, presumably, an attempt by the USG to recover something from 
>a report which was supposed to come down firmly in favour of crypto 
>restrictions but didn't).  
 
Due to the late hour I got that wrong, it's Computerworld NZ, not Infoworld 
(slight difference in naming).  Even later last night I wrote a letter to the 
editor which, I gather, will appear in the next issue.  I've included it below 
in case anyone finds it useful, it's written for a general audience who 
probably aren't aware of the deeper issues apart from the fact that the USG 
has a peculiar attitude towards crypto, due to length constraints I couldn't 
go into too much detail.  If you feel the need to circulate this, please don't 
do so until after next Monday when it's officially published.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
The article "Crims eyeing encryption" in the September 9 Computerworld 
presents an extremely peculiar view of the study "Encryption and Evolving 
Technologies in Organised Crime and Terrorism".  The final conclusion of the 
study was that there is no real "encryption problem" which justifies placing 
limitations on the use of encryption, and yet the article, by more or less 
ignoring the conclusion and concentrating instead on a number of 
scaremongering quotes, manages to create exactly the opposite impression.  To 
understand what's involved here, it might be useful to know a bit about the 
background of the study.
 
For a number of years the US government has held that it needs to strongly 
restrict peoples access to encryption.  They can't actually provide you with 
any supporting facts for this because they're all classified, but if they were 
allowed to tell you, they're certain you'd agree with them.  Now over the 
years they came to the realisation that people weren't really buying this 
argument, and so they decided to create a study which would provide proof, 
once and for all, that they were right.  The two people who worked on this 
study were Dorothy Denning, virtually the only supporter of the US governments 
policy apart from the US government itself, and a vice-president of SAIC, a 
large defence contractor.
 
They toiled away for quite some time, and finally announced their results a 
month or two back.  Unfortunately the findings put them in a rather awkward 
position: Although the study was supposed to provide proof that there was some 
sort of "encryption problem" which needed to be countered, it instead showed 
that there wasn't really a problem at all.  Sure, it showed that criminals 
occasionally use encryption, just like criminals also drive cars, eat pizza, 
drink Coke, and (quite probably) read Computerworld.  The important point - 
which was almost completely ignored in the article in favour of running 
scaremongering quotes from a variety of US government officials - was that 
the "encryption problem", the whole reason for the governments' claimed need 
to restrict encryption, by and large didn't exist.
 
It got even worse for the government though.  So convincing was the evidence 
in the study that Denning - for years a very outspoken supporter of their 
policies - did an about-face and declared that she was no longer prepared to 
back government plans for restricting encryption until someone proved to her 
that there was a very good reason for it (this was reported in a number of US 
papers and publications which cover computer issues, so it was reasonably well 
known, eg "Denning unable to confirm FBI Assertions; alters her position" in 
the Mercury News, the largest silicon valley paper).  Although the governments 
star technical witness was unable to find any evidence that their position was 
valid, the Computerworld article, by resorting to selective quoting and 
innuendo, paints a very different, and quite inaccurate, picture.
 
(As a side-note, I find it amusing to read that the government policy relies 
on people handing over their encryption keys to them.  Quite apart from the 
question of why anyone would trust the US government with their keys, there's 
also the small problem that no criminal will ever do this - that's why they're 
criminals after all.  The only ones who'll ever get caught by this cunning 
plan are you and I).
 
-- Snip --
 
(I'm assuming most readers will get the Baldrick/Blackadder reference in the 
last sentence :-).
 






From sparky12 at earthlink.net  Mon Sep  8 06:12:23 1997
From: sparky12 at earthlink.net (Allan Thompson)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:12:23 +0800
Subject: FUCK! how do i unregister from toad.com or the 2 other server ?%
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970908090402.0068ced4@earthlink.net>




are you tired ? 

>I am tired, i am registered to 3 cypherpunks server and tired or receiving
>40-50 new message each day!
>
>Please someone reply!
>
>Martin
>mgmicro at usa.net 
>
>
>

**************************************************
"The World is full of shipping clerks who read the Harvard Classics."
--Bukowski
***************************************************






From trei at process.com  Mon Sep  8 07:04:34 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:04:34 +0800
Subject: Big Brother is watching you watch Farenheit 451
Message-ID: <199709081352.GAA17432@toad.com>



Bill Stewart  wrote:

> At 08:47 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Brian B. Riley wrote:
> >in the process of rereading "Fahrenheit 451" - the recent printing  of 
> >this in paperback features a Marquis that says somethig like "Now, more 
> >relevant than ever" - as much as I hate having someone else tell me what 
> >to think ... they certainly seem to be right. It has been over twenty 
> 
> BTW, the last copy of F451 I saw really irked me - the cover had
> explanatory notes like "Fahrenheit 451, the temperature that books burn!"
> and stuff about firemen whose job is setting fires.  
> Are today's kids dumbing down, or less literate, or is it just enough
> longer since the book was written that publishers need to try harder to 
> get people to read it?

Any day, I expect to hear that The State has mandated that all first
editions of F451 be confiscated and landfilled. 

Why? Whatever the true motives, the one they will cite is 
"public safety": the first (hardback) edition is bound in asbestos.

trei at process.com






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Sep  8 07:06:21 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:06:21 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709081350.GAA06879@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 8 Sep 97 6:48:45 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config at nym.alias.net              ####**+#-##     7:03  99.95%
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             ----_.---..  14:56:18  99.95%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        *+*****++**+    11:30  99.93%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -----------   3:17:57  99.83%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                 -__.-*+*-.-   7:50:19  99.81%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -----_..---* 10:10:24  99.81%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org         ..---------   3:33:37  99.31%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   -- --------   7:27:32  99.15%
neva     remailer at neva.org                -+*#+*--*  #    25:21  98.45%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +    ++++++     39:06  97.23%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +    +++ +++    28:43  97.10%
replay   remailer at replay.com               +**-++  +**     9:49  96.75%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org                 -*+* ++#    10:58  96.60%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net          ++..+ *  --   2:32:31  84.34%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     **+*++*+      1:14:29  58.44%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From trei at process.com  Mon Sep  8 08:13:28 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:13:28 +0800
Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709081501.KAA01649@einstein.ssz.com>



> From:          Jim Choate 

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:48:08 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Ray Arachelian 
> > Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
> 
> > There has been quite an interest in EMP.
> 
> > pulses to a near miss lightning strike. As far as vehicle disabling, There
> > are claims that auto manufactures have built in a shut down frequency into
> > the computers in certain vehicles. We wound a large coil on a carpet paper
> > tube and put an oscillator on it and it would flood a vehicles electrical
> > system to shut it down, but it was huge.
> 
> Mind being a little more specific?...

[...]

> > The easiest way to learn about
> > EMP is to find the International TESLA society web site and interpret the
> > information there.
> 
> Some of the best sources are ECM & EECM texts/sites.
> 
> While it is a good source of technical info it does take a bull-shit
> detector set to full to sift through all the other detritis the ITS wallows
> in. Space aliens, hollow earth, over-unity power, etc.

Ham radio operators have been dealing with this issue for years. 
There's a lot of (mostly anectodotal) stories of mobile operators
keying up their rigs and having either their own or neighbouring
cars misfiring or dieing. Shielded ignition cables seem to fix 
things (though they are actually bought to prevent ignition noise 
from getting into the radio, not the other way around).

Ham operators can use *much* more powerful transmitters than CB or
cell phones - my own transceiver puts out 50 watts, but some go a 
lot higher.

It's fairly common for hams to 'test' a prospective car purchase by 
waving an HT over the engine while transmitting, to see if it has a 
problem.

I suspect that it would be quite possible to build an EMP gun to 
kill most running cars, but it would also kill anyone with a
pacemaker.

I'm more worried about the current trend towards placing remotely
controlled electronics in cars. Already, one US manufacturer offers
as an option a satellite reciever which (among other things) can
unlock the car remotely if you lock it in the car accidentally. I 
have no idea how much authentication is required for such a request,
but I'm sure car theives are looking into it. To defend against
this, I expect next years model will also allow the car to be
turned off by remote control, or turn on a tracking device.

The popular 'Lojak' car tracking system has similar civil liberties 
issues. I understand that the car owner has no control over it's
activation, can't disable it, and there is no indication that it is
in operation.Apparently all the "authorities" need to turn it on 
is the VIN.

Peter Trei
N1MNV






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Mon Sep  8 08:33:17 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:33:17 +0800
Subject: Prayer to A.M. Turing
Message-ID: <3gDm3/KXXobGiEuuujWoNQ==@bureau42.ml.org>



Adam Back wrote:
>Monty Cantain writes:
>> Oh Lord Turing, God of Messages and Pathways, please reduce the
>> latency time of the remailer network!  Please accept this humble
>> offering: 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
>
>Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
>collide:
>
>% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
>collision: 0 bits
>%

Add an "f".

AMT








From jseiger at cdt.org  Mon Sep  8 09:17:25 1997
From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:17:25 +0800
Subject: CDT Policy Post 3.13 - New FBI Crypto Bill To Force Key Recovery
Message-ID: 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _____ _____ _______
   / ____|  __ \__   __|   ____        ___               ____             __
  | |    | |  | | | |     / __ \____  / (_)______  __   / __ \____  _____/ /_
  | |    | |  | | | |    / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / /  / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/
  | |____| |__| | | |   / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ /  / ____/ /_/ (__  ) /_
   \_____|_____/  |_|  /_/    \____/_/_/\___/\__, /  /_/    \____/____/\__/
   The Center for Democracy and Technology  /____/     Volume 3, Number 13
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A briefing on public policy issues affecting civil liberties online
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 13                    September 8, 1997

 CONTENTS: (1) New FBI Draft Crypto Bill Would Force Mandatory Key Recovery
           (2) Text of FBI Proposal
           (3) What You Can Do
           (4) How to Subscribe/Unsubscribe
           (5) About CDT, contacting us

  ** This document may be redistributed freely with this banner intact **
        Excerpts may be re-posted with permission of 
         ** This document looks best when viewed in COURIER font **
_____________________________________________________________________________

(1) NEW FBI DRAFT ENCRYPTION LEGISLATION WOULD IMPOSE MANDATORY KEY RECOVERY

In its most audacious crypto proposal yet, the FBI is circulating on
Capitol Hill legislation to impose full domestic controls on the
manufacture and use of encryption.  The FBI is seeking support for its
proposal among two crucial House Committees preparing to consider
encryption legislation this week.

The text of the key section of the FBI draft is attached below.

The FBI draft would take two extraordinary steps. It would prohibit the
manufacture, sale, import or distribution within the United States of any
encryption product unless it contains a feature that would create a spare
key or some other trap door allowing "immediate" decryption of any user's
messages or files without the user's knowledge.

In addition, it would require all network service providers that offer
encryption products or services to their customers to ensure that all
messages using such encryption can be immediately decrypted without the
knowledge of the customer.  This would apply to telephone companies and to
online service providers such as America Online and Prodigy.

In the FBI draft, the "key recovery capability" could be activated by the
purchaser or end user.  But requiring that such a capability be installed
in all domestic communications networks and encryption products would be
the critical step in enabling a national surveillance infrastructure.

The proposal requires the Attorney General to set standards for what are
and are not acceptable encryption products. The proposal's requirement of
"immediate" decryption would seem to seriously limit the options available
to encryption manufacturers seeking approval of their products.

While export of encryption products from the United States has long been
restricted, there have never been controls on the manufacture,
distribution, or use of encryption within the United States.

Pending before the House Intelligence and National Security Committees is
the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act (SAFE, HR 695), sponsored
by Rep. Goodlatte (R-VA), which would lift current export controls on
encryption technology. The Goodlatte bill has already been reported
favorably by the House Judiciary and International Relations Committees.
The House National Security Committee is scheduled to consider HR 695 on
Tuesday, September 9. The House Intelligence Committee has scheduled its
vote for September 11. Members of both committees are expected to consider
the FBI draft as a substitute to the SAFE bill.

This FBI proposal represents a major turn-around for the Clinton
Administration, which has denied since its first year that it was seeking
domestic controls on encryption.

The FBI proposal is an attempted end run around the Constitution.  By
creating an avenue for immediate access to sensitive decryption keys
without the knowledge of the user, the proposal denies users the notice
that is a central element of the Fourth Amendment protection against
unreasonable searches and seizures.  Just this past April, the Supreme
Court reaffirmed that the Fourth Amendment normally requires the government
to advise the target of a search and seizure that the search is being
conducted.

Forcing U.S. citizens and companies to adopt so-called key recovery systems
poses serious security risks, especially when the systems can be accessed
without the knowledge of the users.  A recent study by 11 cryptography and
computer security experts concluded that such key recovery systems would be
costly and ultimately insecure (see http://www.crypto.com/key_study)

CDT executive director Jerry Berman said of the latest proposal, "This is
not the first step towards the surveillance society. It *is* the
surveillance society."

______________________________________________________________________________

(2) TEXT OF MANDATORY KEY RECOVERY SECTION OF FBI DRAFT LEGISLATION
    (From FBI "Technical Assistance Draft" Dated August 28, 1997)

SEC. 105. PUBLIC ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS AND SERVICES

(a)    As of January 1, 1999, public network service providers offering
encryption products or encryption services shall ensure that such products
or services enable the immediate decryption of communications or electronic
information encrypted by such products or services on the public network,
upon receipt of a court order, warrant, or certification, pursuant to
section 106, without the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
encryption products or services.

(b)    As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any person to
manufacture for sale or distribution within the U.S., distribute within the
U.S., sell within the U.S., or import into the U.S. any product that can be
used to encrypt communications or electronic information, unless that
product -

       (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
       compatibility or other means, that

           (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of decryption
           information by an authorized party without the knowledge or
           cooperation of the person using such encryption product; and

           (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture, distribution,
           sale, or import, or may be enabled by the purchaser or end user; or

       (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include features, such
       as key recovery, trusted third party compatibility or other means, that
       permit immediate decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
       or cooperation of the person using such encryption product.

(c)  (1) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act, the Attorney General
     shall publish in the Federal Register functional criteria for complying
     with the decryption requirements set forth in this section.

     (2) Within 180 days of the enactment of this Act, the Attorney General
     shall promulgate procedures by which data network service providers and
     encryption product manufacturers, sellers, re-sellers, distributors, and
     importers may obtain advisory opinions as to whether a decryption method
     will meet the requirements of this section.

     (3) Nothing in this Act or any other law shall be construed as requiring
     the implementation of any particular decryption method in order to satisfy
     the requirements of paragraphs (a) or (b) of this section.

______________________________________________________________________________

(3) WHAT YOU CAN I DO TO HELP?

Are you concerned about protecting privacy and security in the information
age? Curious what your Member of Congress thinks about the issue?

  Adopt Your Legislator! Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt for details

You will recieve customized alerts with news you can use, inlcuding the
latest information on internet-related issues, the views of your
Representative and Senators, and contact information to help you ensure
your voice is heard in the ongoing debate over the future of the
Information Age.

Visit http://www.cdt.org/crypto or http://www.crypto.com/ for detailed
background information on the encryption policy reform debate, including
the text of various legislative proposals, analysis, and other information.

_____________________________________________________________________________

(4) SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION

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civil liberties online and how they will affect you! Subscribe to the CDT
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_____________________________________________________________________________

(5) ABOUT THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY/CONTACTING US

The Center for Democracy and Technology is a non-profit public interest
organization based in Washington, DC. The Center's mission is to develop
and advocate public policies that advance democratic values and
constitutional civil liberties in new computer and communications
technologies.

Contacting us:

General information:  info at cdt.org
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
End Policy Post 3.13                                               09/08/97
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Sep  8 09:37:21 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:37:21 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Show Me the Warheads!
Message-ID: <199709081619.JAA20847@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 9:03 PM -0700 9/4/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>>In an interview to be aired on "60 Minutes" this Sunday, Alexandr
>>Lebed, former Russian National Security Advisor, will reveal that
>>his country has lost track of more than 100 nuclear bombs made to
>>look like suitcases, and has no idea what happened to them.

At 10:13 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Stay away from soft targets (Tel Aviv, Haifa, the ZOG section of Jerusalem,
> New York, Washington, and so on--Harbors (e.g., Haifa, NYC) are pretty
> likely targets, due to the extreme ease of delivery). But also be prepared
> for major disruptions and panic even if you are nowhere near the blast.

Relax:   Anyone who can afford nukes, probably won't use them without
very good reason.

By the way, I have noticed that the Israelis have lately taken a considerably
more conciliatory attitude towards non state entitities.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From rich at paranoid.org  Mon Sep  8 10:37:23 1997
From: rich at paranoid.org (Rich Burroughs)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:37:23 +0800
Subject: Redhat crypto archive on replay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970907230204.006ba074@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



There are some good tools there.

You don't have to have RedHat to use rpm packages -- it will work with
other Linux distributions.  Rpm is available at:

ftp://ftp.rpm.org/pub/rpm/dist/latest/



Rich


On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> 
> I forget where I saw the below message announcing stext for Linux,
> but there is a nice collection of crypto packages at
> http://www.replay.com/redhat .
> Unfortunately, they're in RedHat Package Manager format,
> so they may be a shade difficult to use for non-Redhat users,
> but Redhat does seem to be a fairly popular Linux flavor.
> 
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >From: Hans Zoebelein 
> >To: redhat-announce-list at redhat.com
> >Subject: stext-1.0 stegano crypto package uploaded
> >Resent-Date: 4 Sep 1997 03:28:09 -0000
> >
> >Hi, 
> >
> >there is a nice crypto rpm, which uses steganograpic techniques
> >to hide a file in another text file which looks like normal text.
> >
> >The packages are stext-1.0-1.i386.rpm and stext-1.01.src.rpm 
> >Binary and source should be dloadable from 
> >
> >http://www.replay.com/redhat 
> >
> >the next days. Or check ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/linux/redhat.
> >This package might be useful to handle crypted files in countries,
> >where authorities love their citizens so much, that they want to 
> >know everything about them and have forbidden strong crypto 
> >(Hello China, Bon Jour France :)
> >
> >Enjoy!
> >Hans
> >
> >Hans Zoebelein              * You are interested in Linux blind support?
> >zocki at goldfish.cube.net     * Join the blinux mailing list and mail to:
> >"Please enter my parlor!"   * blinux-list-request at redhat.com
> > said the spider to the fly.* with subject line: subscribe
> >
> >
> >
> 






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  8 10:40:17 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:40:17 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <199709081619.JAA20847@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:19 AM -0700 9/8/97, James A. Donald wrote:

>At 10:13 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> Stay away from soft targets (Tel Aviv, Haifa, the ZOG section of Jerusalem,
>> New York, Washington, and so on--Harbors (e.g., Haifa, NYC) are pretty
>> likely targets, due to the extreme ease of delivery). But also be prepared
>> for major disruptions and panic even if you are nowhere near the blast.
>
>Relax:   Anyone who can afford nukes, probably won't use them without
>very good reason.
>
>By the way, I have noticed that the Israelis have lately taken a considerably
>more conciliatory attitude towards non state entitities.

The targets may not even be political.

Imagine the profits to be made by shorting a bunch of high tech, networking
stocks and then detonating a package near the major NAPs clustered in
Silicon Valley? Not to mention the direct effects and the panic effects on
Intel, Sun, Netscape, Apple, Cisco, 3COM, and a hundred other such
companies.

Conventional explosives could knock out MAE-West or any other single NAP,
but even a low-yield nuke would trigger the panic, fallout, and temporary
abandonment of facilities. Cisco and Intel would be massively disrupted for
at least several months, and might not recover for years....

(Conventional explosives could also cause a billion or more dollars worth
of damage to a major wafer fabrication plant, of course, but the
manufacturing capacity could be shifted to other plants in a matter of
months. Some major short sale opportunities, but not nearly what a nuke
could do to a _region_, in terms of direct blast effects, fallout in
surrounding city blocks (tens of square city blocks, at the least, esp.
give OSHA standards, etc.), and the sheer panic effect.)

Similar effects would be felt if a suitcase nuke were detonated in Chicago
near the futures/options markets, in Nuke York City in almost any of the
locations, in the City of London, and so on. The best target for such a
suitcase nuke would require careful planning.

(Very speculatively, a terrorist group might actually gain more by hitting
a financial or high tech center, and multiplying their assets by factors of
hundreds or thousands, thus allowing them to gain more conventional
leverage. Of course, their sudden new wealth would make them the suspects
in such a bombing.)

By carefully using cutouts for the short positions (lawyers in distributed
countries, for example), and by buying puts (huge leverage, of course), the
risks to an "investment group" could be minimal.

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This is not investement advice. I am not a Certified
Nuclear Hedging Advisor, and my knowledge of the effects of nuclear weapons
on financial markets is based on speculation. In other words, your
megatonnage may vary.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From azur at netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 11:38:01 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 02:38:01 +0800
Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709081501.KAA01649@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



>The popular 'Lojak' car tracking system has similar civil liberties
>issues. I understand that the car owner has no control over it's
>activation, can't disable it, and there is no indication that it is
>in operation.Apparently all the "authorities" need to turn it on
>is the VIN.

Lojak, like  uses a pager frequency to activate the transponder.  It is
easy and inexpensive to build a low-power de-activating transmitter,
operated in or near the car, to jam the pager receiver and prevent the
unit's operation.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	The push by western governments for financial transparency and
	banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial
	tyranny.

	Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell







From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Mon Sep  8 12:43:04 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:43:04 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709081905.MAA13763@sirius.infonex.com>



Jesus had 3 nipples.


(this has been proven to be true)






From eb at comsec.com  Mon Sep  8 12:51:36 1997
From: eb at comsec.com (Eric Blossom)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:51:36 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709081923.MAA22662@comsec.com>



> 
> (Conventional explosives could also cause a billion or more dollars worth
> of damage to a major wafer fabrication plant, of course, but the
> manufacturing capacity could be shifted to other plants in a matter of
> months. Some major short sale opportunities, but not nearly what a nuke
> could do to a _region_, in terms of direct blast effects, fallout in
> surrounding city blocks (tens of square city blocks, at the least, esp.
> give OSHA standards, etc.), and the sheer panic effect.)
> 

On of my favorite analyses of a similar scenario is contained in "The
Curve of Binding Energy" by John McPhee (available at your local
Borders or Barnes and Noble).  He basically interviews a high energy
physicist and works out the back of the envelope calculations on
yields, where to get the plutonium, where and how to place the device,
etc.  A key point was that a high efficiency device is not required.  
A dirty 1.5 kiloton gadget placed on the 40th floor of the World Trade
Center takes out one tower and kills a shit load of folks in the
adjacent tower.  Includes other rules of thumb such as "one kiloton of
explosives vaporizes one kiloton of matter".  YMMV, don't try this at
home kids, etc, etc.






From vznuri at netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 13:14:02 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:14:02 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709081954.MAA02751@netcom13.netcom.com>




FYI, SS is quoting from a new book that I have mentioned on this
list on a prior date.


>Our elections are corrupted by bribery - not the big money paid to
>candidates by corporate donors, but the taxpayers' money offered to voters
>by the candidates themselves.

our elections are also corrupted by the fact that voters are not
expending any significant effort to decide whom to vote for. they
watch tv, and if an advertisement pushes their buttons in the right
way, it affects their vote.

another possibility in reforming our system is changing it away
from a *republic* in which we elect senators and representatives
to a true democracy. it is easier to bribe politicians than it
is to bribe the public in my opinion. in fact, that's what we
need, someone that bribes the public-at-large instead of smaller
constituencies to get elected. a single senator can be bribed,
but bribing the entire population is like ultimately serving them.

consider that products sold for less money are in a way a kind
of "bribe" on the public. (a coarse word to use here). but the
products are trying to buy favoritism. I propose this is mostly
a problem only when they are appealing to narrow audiences.
for example, a bill that supports only timber cutters is a 
small constituency, susceptible to bribery. a bill that benefits
the entire nation is contrary to this.

>The darkest warnings of democracy's critics are being furfilled, precisely
>because of entitlement programs that already exist, which are driving the
>federal government into an abyss of debt.  Touching the big entitlement
>programs - the ones available to the middle class - is "political suicide."
>The president exploits this fact when he plays chicken with Republicans who
>want to reform those programs. All of which shows that we really know that
>democracy's critics were right. Too many voters are already bought - not by
>corporate campaign donors, but by the government itself. Worst of all, we
>accept this as normal, healthy politics even as it threatens to ruin us.

the public needs to eventually learn that for every dollar they send
to washington, they get only a fraction back, no matter how lucrative
their own pork. the problem with our
politics is that voters have not realized that they are almost always
cheating themselves when they try to cheat their neighbors. it's a shell
game that they keep playing as long as they think someone else is paying.

I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
users, any more than software could do the same.






From hanne at squirrel.owl.de  Mon Sep  8 13:19:51 1997
From: hanne at squirrel.owl.de (Johannes Kroeger)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:19:51 +0800
Subject: Weasel nymserver closed due to child porn investigation
In-Reply-To: <19970907224816.29967@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <19970908205739.03652@squirrel.owl.de>

On 07 Sep 1997, I wrote:

> 3.  Mail to weasel.owl.de users will be remailed as usual, until I
> have transferred the accounts to another nymserver.  I would be very
> grateful if the admins of nym.alias.net or anon.efga.org are willing
> to host weasel's nyms until the investigations are closed and weasel
> is hopefully up again.

Andy Dustman, the operator of the redneck nymserver at anon.efga.org,
has now installed the weasel accounts on the EFGA server.  This means:

1. I don't have any data of pseudonymous users available anymore.

2. Mail to  will be forwarded to
 ("_w" for weasel).
        ^^
3.  Mail to {send,config}@weasel.owl.de bounces with the following,
now somewhat more detailed error message:

Sending mail from weasel.owl.de is disabled until further notice.  Please
read <19970907224816.29967 at squirrel.owl.de> in alt.privacy.anon-server for
more information.  The accounts have been moved to redneck (anon.efga.org):
 is now .

-- 
Johannes Kroeger		
Send mail with subject "send pgp-key" to get my PGP key

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From davewww at fastlane.net  Mon Sep  8 14:59:08 1997
From: davewww at fastlane.net (davewww)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:59:08 +0800
Subject: Info please
Message-ID: <199709082134.QAA13922@fastlane.net>



davewww at fastlane.net






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Mon Sep  8 15:31:38 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:31:38 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Sep8.181602edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Many, beginning with de Toquivelle, have noted that democracy brings with
> it the unhappy possibility of a tyranny of the majority.  The reasons for
> this shortcoming are closely tied to the decision of whom within the
> democracy receives the franchise and how in a representative democracy
> officeholders are elected.

I don't think it is so much of the franchise as to the problem of whoever
the enfranchised are voting themselves largess at the public trough (also
noting how few of the franchised actually exercise the right today).  If
no one would consider voting for subsidies, the country is safe.  As soon
as the first subsidy is passed, a mob will form to lobby for a similar one
to benefit them.  This will occur even if the enfranchised group is small
- absolute power corrupts absolutely, even when it is every citizen who
can wield it, or an oligarchy.

Moreover, property ownership does not make for any better selection except
that it is probable that one of your ancestors had to acquire wealth.
Then the property owners simply vote to prevent transfer of property or
some other means of freezing the franchise, and can still cause all the
problems of tyranny.

It would be preferable that everyone wanting to vote have to pass a test
which had as a major component the fate of all democracies that use
majority power to destroy minority rights and to vote themselves
subsidies.  At this point, the democratic right to commit societial
suicide at least becomes an informed decision.

Democracy is as tyrannical as any other system if rights aren't respected.
In those cases where limited government might have to make a decision
concerning all, and there is time to debate the issue, democracy (either
representative or direct) is the most just method.

> The darkest warnings of democracy's critics are being furfilled, precisely
> because of entitlement programs that already exist, which are driving the
> federal government into an abyss of debt.  Touching the big entitlement
> programs - the ones available to the middle class - is "political suicide."

You should finish the story (or is there a Part III coming out)...

Democracies bankrupt themselves because this voting of largess eventually
turns into a pyramid scheme that collapses when there is no one left
creating wealth, only those trying to redistribute it.  After wealth can
no longer be distributed, the attempt is made to transfer more power to
government (because they can't believe that the reason for the problem is
their own greed - it must be the Jews, Corporations, Immigrants, Right
Wing Radicals, Gold Hoarders - pick your favorite group). 

And we end up back with a tyranny - from a totalitarian democracy, to a
dictatorship when everything breaks down.

All it will take is one stock market crash (read: correction that restores
dividend yields and price-to-book values to historic normalcy) - and the
following recession to bankrupt the pay-as-you-go government (watch for
20%+ interest rates on government securities during a deflation!).  The
unemployed riot demanding something other than scrip and seinors refuse to
pay taxes unless their social security is in cash - volia, we have
marshall law.  Remember what Roosevelt got away with before the current
method of expressing displeasure - burning your city to the ground -
became popular.

Probably before the congress is through investigating the campaign
irregularities in the 1996 elections.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From tm at dev.null  Mon Sep  8 15:31:42 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:31:42 +0800
Subject: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
In-Reply-To: <199709082134.QAA13922@fastlane.net>
Message-ID: <3414759D.3088@dev.null>



davewww wrote:
> 
> davewww at fastlane.net

Dont go swimming on a full stomach.






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Mon Sep  8 16:19:27 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:19:27 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: <199709081954.MAA02751@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep8.185450edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> our elections are also corrupted by the fact that voters are not
> expending any significant effort to decide whom to vote for. they
> watch tv, and if an advertisement pushes their buttons in the right
> way, it affects their vote.

After the current elections, we ended up with a more complex tax code, a
new entitlement, more budget sophistry, increased spending, less
soverignity, etc.

Assuming a 50 member difference in the house either way (and a similar
proportion in the Senate, or Beltway Bob instead of Beltway Bill), would
any of these things be substantially different?

And those that expended effort in things like ballot initiatives only saw
them overturned by the courts.

I can expend all the effort I want, but nothing will change.  Most people
have figured this out and don't bother voting.  The ones who do vote
simply vote for the one who promises them the most visible subsidy since
for little effort, they might get a benefit.

The corruption derives exclusively from the ability of government to
redistribute wealth.  As soon as it does this to any degree, the logical
thing to expend effort on is getting a greater share of the transfer.

If I vote to deny myself, everyone else gets the benefit.

You might disagree with the results, but I think greed, sloth, and
corruption are perfectly representative of those who vote - democracy
still works in that way.

> the public needs to eventually learn that for every dollar they send
> to washington, they get only a fraction back, no matter how lucrative
> their own pork. the problem with our
> politics is that voters have not realized that they are almost always
> cheating themselves when they try to cheat their neighbors. it's a shell
> game that they keep playing as long as they think someone else is paying.

David Freedman described this perfectly (my paraphrase from memory):

100 people sit around the table with 100 pennies each.  Someone starts
with the first and takes a single penny from each and dumps 50 back at the
first person.  This process is repeated for each person.  Everyone ends up
with half the wealth, but are happy because the 50 cents in bulk is easier
to spot than the single pennies being removed.

Except for Harry Browne who asked would you give up your favorite subsidy
if it meant you never had to pay taxes again, the tax cuts are separated
from the subsidies.  If the recipient lobbys for the subsidy, he gets
$500, but if I get it cut, I may save $0.50.  A few beneficiaries will do
whatever it takes because it is many times more important to them to have
the subsidy than the millions who would have to pay more for postage or
the phone call to oppose it than they do in taxes for that one program. 

You learn that it costs far more to prevent spending than to lobby for
your own share.  It is not a problem with politics, but with any system
that has concentrated benefits but dispersed costs.

[and that is why the internet is such a threat to our current way of doing
things - it disperses everything making it impossible to concentrate
benefits - routing around political subsidies as it does everything else.]

With tax rates going up (a concentrated cost), the money is coming from
the unborn generations who will have to pay back the principle on the long
term debt.  They don't vote - and when they do it will be too late to do
anything about it - which may be now. 

> I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
> there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
> after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
> one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
> users, any more than software could do the same.

But then the question is whether democracy (which needs more definition) 
is the best system to compensate for the flaws.  For example: Markets turn
selfishness to utility.  What virtue is promoted or vice limited or
converted by democracy per se?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From azur at netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 16:19:45 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:19:45 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy isthe true enemy...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:54 PM -0700 9/8/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>FYI, SS is quoting from a new book that I have mentioned on this
>list on a prior date.

Part II wasn't quoted from Soverign Individual.

--Steve







From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Mon Sep  8 16:44:04 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:44:04 +0800
Subject: ctb196.htm
Message-ID: <199709082336.TAA27048@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1]Marketplace Technology [2]Front page, [3]News, [4]Sports, [5]Money,
   [6]Life, [7]Weather, [8]Marketplace 
   Inside Tech
   • [9]FAQ, Tips and
     [10]Tricks
   • [11]Web Column
   • [12]Hot Sites
   • [13]Tech News
   • [14]Tech Reviews
   • [15]Answer Desk
   • [16]Shareware Shelf
   • [17]Web Potholes
   • [18]Web Resources
   • [19]Tech Front
   
   Resources
   • [20]Index
   • [21]Search
   • [22]Feedback
   • [23]What's hot
   • [24]About us
   • [25]Jobs at USA
     [26]TODAY
   
   09/08/97- Updated 09:34 AM ET
   
  PCs no longer needed to place Net calls
  
   Consumers can now make super-cheap, long-distance phone calls over the
   Internet without even touching a computer - creating a dangerous rival
   for long-distance companies.
   
   Monday, IDT unveils Net2Phone Direct, a service that lets a consumer
   pick up a phone, dial a number and send the call through the Internet
   to another phone anywhere in the world. The cost: 8 cents a minute
   within the USA; 18 cents to London; 29 cents to Japan - all cheaper
   than traditional long-distance calling.
   
   Net2Phone Direct is the broadest service yet. Versions are being tried
   by others, including units or partners of Deutsche Telekom and Japan's
   KDD. Says David Goodtree of Forrester Research, "Phone to phone is
   where the money is."
   
   "It's the natural evolution of voice over the Internet," says Yankee
   Group's Brian Adamik. Several software packages already let a PC user
   have a voice conversation with another PC user via the Internet.
   Vocaltec, the leading Internet phone company, offers a service that
   connects a PC user to regular phones. But phone-to-phone can reach the
   broadest number of consumers.
   
   Net2Phone Direct works like a long-distance, dial-around service. A
   user dials an 800 number or a local access number, punches in an
   account number, much like using a phone card, then dials the number to
   be called.
   
   IDT's system sends the call over the Internet to a computer in
   Hackensack, N.J., which dumps the call back into the regular phone
   network, through which the call connects to another phone. IDT plans
   to expand the system by placing its computers in more cities, so the
   calls travel more over the Net (which is free) and less distance over
   traditional phone lines (which cost money). Eventually, prices could
   fall "to under a nickel a minute to anyplace in the country," says CEO
   Howard Jonas.
   
   Until recently, major phone companies had all but ignored developments
   in Internet telephony. But that's changing. Big phone companies "are
   keeping a careful eye on it," Adamik says.
   
   Last week, Deutsche Telekom announced an investment in Vocaltec. Over
   the summer, AT&T and Vocaltec allied to fund an Internet telephony
   start-up run by former AT&T executive Tom Evslin.
   
   By Kevin Maney, USA TODAY
     _________________________________________________________________
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [27]Front page, [28]News, [29]Sports, [30]Money, [31]Life,
   [32]Weather, [33]Marketplace
   
   �COPYRIGHT 1997 [34]USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc. 

References

   1. http://www.usatoday.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=342&AdID=875&URL=http://www.usatoday.com/marketpl/tech.htm
   2. http://www.usatoday.com/usafront.htm
   3. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nfront.htm
   4. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sfront.htm
   5. http://www.usatoday.com/money/mfront.htm
   6. http://www.usatoday.com/life/lfront.htm
   7. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wfront.htm
   8. http://www.usatoday.com/marketpl/mkthome.htm
   9. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/webfaq.htm
  10. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/webfaq.htm
  11. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cc.htm
  12. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/ch.htm
  13. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ct000.htm
  14. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/cr000.htm
  15. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/bonus/qa/techform.htm
  16. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cs/cs000.htm
  17. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cp.htm
  18. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cw.htm
  19. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cyber1.htm
  20. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/indexusa.htm#ldex
  21. http://167.8.29.8/plweb-cgi/ixacct.pl
  22. http://www.usatoday.com/feedback/comment1.htm
  23. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/usanew.htm
  24. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/credit/credit.htm
  25. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/usajobs0.htm
  26. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/usajobs0.htm
  27. http://www.usatoday.com/usafront.htm
  28. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nfront.htm
  29. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sfront.htm
  30. http://www.usatoday.com/money/mfront.htm
  31. http://www.usatoday.com/life/lfront.htm
  32. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wfront.htm
  33. http://www.usatoday.com/marketpl/mkthome.htm
  34. http://www.usatoday.com/leadpage/credit/credit.htm






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Mon Sep  8 16:48:02 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:48:02 +0800
Subject: I see the Wells Fargo Wagon it's a-comin down...
Message-ID: <199709082338.TAA27064@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




                 EU official proposes global Internet charter
                                       
      Copyright � 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright � 1997 Reuter Information Service
      
   BRUSSELS, Belgium (September 8, 1997 11:21 a.m. EDT) - The top
   telecommunications official of the European Union called Monday for an
   international charter to regulate the Internet and other electronic
   networks.
   
   EU Commissioner Martin Bangemann, in a speech prepared for a
   telecommunications conference in Geneva, said the charter should deal
   with questions such as technical standards, illegal content, licenses,
   encryption and data privacy.
   
   "The current situation may lead to the adoption of isolated global
   rules with different countries signing up to different rules agreed
   under the auspices of different international organizations," the
   German commissioner said.
   
   "An international charter would provide a suitable answer."
   
   The text of the speech was distributed in Brussels.
   
   Bangemann said industry should lead the effort to draw up a charter,
   which would be based mostly on self-regulation and mutual recognition
   of national licenses.
   
   "Its role would not be to impose detailed rules, except in particular
   circumstances (child pornography, terrorist networks)," he said.
   
   The charter would recognize existing pacts negotiated within the World
   Trade Organization and World Intellectual Property Organization and
   draw on principles agreed by other bodies such as the Group of Seven
   top industrial countries, he said.
   






From rwright at adnetsol.com  Mon Sep  8 16:53:12 1997
From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:53:12 +0800
Subject: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
Message-ID: <199709082324.QAA18827@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>



On or About  8 Sep 97 at 16:01, TruthMonger wrote:

> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>
Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out. 
 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep  8 16:56:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:56:38 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709082334.BAA03486@basement.replay.com>



Anyone want to guess how long until they will give 'key escrow' systems
special protection?  

(Actually that would be a good thing, because it would make GAK more
expensive :-)


-----
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/notices/terrog.txt
-----

Petitioning to Make Special Patent Applications Relating to
Inventions For Countering Terrorism

New patent applications are normally taken up for
examination in the order of their effective United States
filing date.  However, the Commissioner may provide that a
patent application will be advanced out of turn for
examination if a petition to make the patent application
special under 37 CFR 1.102(c) or (d) is granted.

On July 31, 1996, Vice President Gore stated that �[i]t is
imperative that those seeking to prevent terrorist
activities have all of the tools necessary to accomplish
their task.�  In view of the importance of developing
technologies for countering terrorism and the desirability
of prompt disclosure of advances made in these fields, the
Patent and Trademark Office is establishing a new category
for petitions to accord "special" status to patent
applications relating to counter-terrorism inventions.
International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
�activities that
(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life
that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United
States or of any State, or that would be a criminal
violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United
States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to
intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to
influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
assassination or kidnaping.�

The types of technology for countering terrorism could
include, but are not limited to, systems for
detecting/identifying explosives, aircraft sensors/security
systems, and vehicular barricades/disabling systems.
Applications which are made special will be advanced out of
turn for examination and will be treated as special
throughout their pendency by the Patent and Trademark
Office.

Applicants who desire that an application relating to
inventions for countering terrorism be made special should
file a petition, with the fee under 37 CFR 1.17(i) which is
presently $130.00, requesting the Patent and Trademark
Office to make the application special.  The petition for
special status should be made in writing, should identify
the application by application number and filing date, and
should be accompanied by a statement explaining how the
invention contributes to countering terrorism.  Such
statement must be set forth in oath or declaration form
unless it is signed by a registered practitioner.  The
petition will be decided by the Director of the patent
examining group to which the application is assigned.

This new category for a petition to make an application
special will be added in the next revision of the Manual of
Patent Examining Procedure (MPEP) to the other categories
discussed in MPEP section 708.02.

Questions concerning this notice should be directed to
Magdalen Y. Greenlief, Office of the Deputy Assistant
Commissioner for Patent Policy and Projects, (703) 305-8813.

Bruce A. Lehman                         Dated: August 19, 1996
Assistant Secretary of Commerce and
   Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks






From hua at chromatic.com  Mon Sep  8 17:35:32 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:35:32 +0800
Subject: News: California Legislature Backs Encryption Exports
Message-ID: <199709090006.RAA18844@ohio.chromatic.com>



Incredible ...  I've been tracing this for the last few days, and I
have seen ZERO mention in print and ONE tiny mention in San Jose
Mercury News (which did NOT get reflected in the print version;
someone please prove me wrong).

The Key Bill Numbers:

    SB-1133 and SJR-29 (Start from: http://www.ca.gov and look under
    "senate")

    SB-1133 is a full encryption policy direction declaration (yes,
    that means it's still fluff, but at least it says key recovery
    does not work.)

    SJR-29 is the resolution mentioned below.

Full Article:

    http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html
    by Will Rodger

Key Passage:

    Clinton administration officials tried to fight passage of the
    resolution in the technology-heavy state, while at the same time
    trying to conceal their moves from industry opponents, according
    to lobbyists close to the floor action.

    Commerce Undersecretary William Reinsch, for example, sent the
    state senate committee considering the measure a three-page fax
    urging them to vote down the resolution an hour before a scheduled
    committee vote on Aug. 28.

    Officials of the Office of Management and Budget then tried to
    keep the contents of the fax secret from opponents by warning that
    the work was protected by copyright and could not be shown outside
    the committee without violating the author's copyright.

    "We eventually got a copy anyway. It's nothing but the same old
    arguments," said Chuck Marson, a lobbyist for the Internet
    Industry Alliance, an industry group composed of Netscape
    Communications Corp., Microsoft Corp., America Online Inc. and
    Netcom On-Line Communication Services Inc.

It is just utterly amazing that NO major news organization has yet to
challenge the Clinton Administration on this issue:

    That the Administration has consistently misrepresented the facts
    and, in some case, just plain lied, to the public, and have tried
    every under-handed method to slow the spread of encryption,
    key-recovery or not, and to increase the surveillence powers of
    law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

And now, here we are, on the eve of a series of important votes to gut
Goodlatte's SAFE legislation, and no one knows anything about the
slimeball tactics the Administration is using to regulate, for the
first time, what kind of software one can write.

Maybe it is just as well.  Perhaps the best way is to fold and appear
weak on the initial vote and let the whole damn thing pass (after all,
I'm willing to bet that the purpose of trying to gut the legislation
before it reaches the floor is to make it not worth anyone's vote).
If our side can get everyone to vote for the GAK-compliant version,
perhaps it will pave the way for a most excellant CDA-style challenge.

Ern






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Mon Sep  8 17:41:25 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:41:25 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199709082334.BAA03486@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908172559.03d80b60@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Anyone want to guess how long until they will give 'key escrow' systems
>special protection?  
>
>(Actually that would be a good thing, because it would make GAK more
>expensive :-)

It would be interesting to find out what they would do if someone patented
all the good GAK methods and then held on to the patents .

Sounds like a job for Ron Rivest or Matt Blaze. ]:>

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  8 18:08:11 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:08:11 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
Message-ID: 




Though it's understandable why so many are expressing anger, gloom,
anxiety, and rage over the Freeh-Feinstein mandatory key escrow draft bill,
a better attitude is that of joy.

Any way it goes, this is good news for us.

If the Safe Internet Act (or whatever it is finally called)  is passed, the
Supreme Court will likely strike it down (on First and/or Fourth Amendment
grounds). This will marginalize the crypto folks, and perhaps cause the
Court to reaffirm the Patel decision and related issues.

If the Safe Internet Act is never actually proposed, or dies in committee,
or fails, then at least Big Brother's true intentions will have been shown.

Actually, this has already happened. All of those who ever expressed doubt
that Big Brother planned to ban crypto must now see we were right all along.

The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
of actions will then accelerate.

And that could be a lot of fun.

But I expect, in all seriousness, that the Freeh-Feinstein view will fade.
Clinton is about to enter his lame duck phase, and sentiment seems to be
against mandatory key escrow. As one ironic example, the California state
legislature has voted unanimously, both houses, to send a message to
Washington urging easing of crypto exports.

Feinswine, being a Californian, might want to heed this. But, being a
Pacific Heights socialist, er, socialite, she's too clueless to have any
inkling what the issues are.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep  8 18:15:17 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:15:17 +0800
Subject: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
Message-ID: <199709090057.CAA14378@basement.replay.com>



>> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
>>
>Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out. 
> 
Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a car.







From leo at supersex.com  Mon Sep  8 18:25:33 1997
From: leo at supersex.com (Leo Papandreou)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:25:33 +0800
Subject: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
In-Reply-To: <199709090057.CAA14378@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 





On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> >> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> >Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out. 
> Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a car.
1+1=3 for large values of 1






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  8 18:29:32 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:29:32 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199709082334.BAA03486@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 5:25 PM -0700 9/8/97, Alan wrote:
>At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>>
>>Anyone want to guess how long until they will give 'key escrow' systems
>>special protection?
>>
>>(Actually that would be a good thing, because it would make GAK more
>>expensive :-)
>
>It would be interesting to find out what they would do if someone patented
>all the good GAK methods and then held on to the patents .
>
>Sounds like a job for Ron Rivest or Matt Blaze. ]:>

Actually, one of the UC Berkeley professors actually *got* a patent on key
escrow methods.  Micali, as I recall.

As for the "expedited patents" bullshit, that's an abuse of the patent
process, to support certain political goals by expediting certain
applications and (obviously, given ontological realities) delaying others.

As for terrorism, the United States is basically the major
terrorism-supporting state in the world.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From _jar3d_ at geocities.com  Mon Sep  8 18:35:27 1997
From: _jar3d_ at geocities.com (Jared)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:35:27 +0800
Subject: Deja Vu / Re: Info please
In-Reply-To: <199709090057.CAA14378@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3414A2FD.FEE7767B@geocities.com>





Anonymous wrote:

> >> Dont go swimming on a full stomach.
> >>
> >Don't play with that, you'll shoot your eye out.
> >
> Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a car.

  Don't look into a gimped up horses mouth..err..wait






From azur at netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 18:35:42 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:35:42 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part III), was Democracy is thetrue enemy...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>At 6:16 PM -0400 9/8/97, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
>On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> Many, beginning with de Toquivelle, have noted that democracy brings with
>> it the unhappy possibility of a tyranny of the majority.  The reasons for
>> this shortcoming are closely tied to the decision of whom within the
>> democracy receives the franchise and how in a representative democracy
>> officeholders are elected.
>
>I don't think it is so much of the franchise as to the problem of whoever
>the enfranchised are voting themselves largess at the public trough (also
>noting how few of the franchised actually exercise the right today).  If
>no one would consider voting for subsidies, the country is safe.  As soon
>as the first subsidy is passed, a mob will form to lobby for a similar one
>to benefit them.  This will occur even if the enfranchised group is small
>- absolute power corrupts absolutely, even when it is every citizen who
>can wield it, or an oligarchy.

Your mention of oligarchy helps introduce Part III, which like Part I is
excerpted from the Soverign Individual.

--------------------

The conventional way to treating the role of democracy assumes that it
brings violence-using and violence-producing enterprises "increasingly
under the control of their customers. This is certainly the politically
correct conclusion. But is it true?

...democratic governments typically spend only a bare fraction of their
total outlays on the service of protection, which is their core activity.
In the United States, for example, state and local governments spend just
3.5 percent of their total outlays on the provision of police, as well as
courts and prisons. Add military spending, and the fraction of revenues
devoted to protection is still only about 10 percent.

Most democracies run chronic deficits. This is a fiscal policy
characteristic of control by employees. Governments seem notably resistant
to reducing the costs of their operations. An almost universal complaint
about contemporary government worldwide is that political programs, once
established, can be curtailed only with great difficulty.

...you would look in vain for hints of competitive influences on tax rates
according to which government services are priced. Advocates of lower taxes
sometimes have argued that government revenues would actually increase
because rates previously had been set so high that they discouraged
economic activity.  They did not argue that because tax rates in Hong Kong
were only 15 percent, rates in the United States or Germany must be no
higher than 15 percent. To the contrary. Tax debates have normally assumed
that the trade-off facing the taxpayer was not between doing business in
one jurisdiction or doing it in another, but between doing business at
penal rates or taking a holiday. You were told that productive individuals
subject to predatory taxation would walk away from their in-boxes and go
golfing if their tax burdens were not eased.

Customers would scream bloody murder if a telephone company attempted to
charge for calls on the same basis that income taxes are imposed. Suppose
the phone company sent a bill for $50,000 for a call to London, just
because you happened to conclude a deal worth $125,000 during a
conversation. Neither you nor any other customer in his right mind would
pay it. But that is exactly the basis upon which income taxes are assessed
in every democratic welfare state.

Government in many respects appears to be run for the benefit of employees.
For example, government schools in most democratic countries seem to
malfunction chronically and without remedy. If customers truly were in the
driver's seat, they would find it easier to set new policy directions.
Those who pay for democratic government seldom set the terms of government
spending. Instead, government functions as a co-op that is both outside of
proprietary control and operating as a natural monopoly. Prices bear little
relation to costs. The quality of service is generally low compared to that
in private enterprise. Customer grievances are hard to remedy. In short,
mass democracy leads to control of government by its "employees."

But wait...there are many more voters than there are persons on the
government payroll. How could it be possible for employees to dominate
under such conditions? The welfare state emerged to answer exactly this
quandary. Since there were not otherwise enough employees to create a
working majority, increasing numbers of voters were effectively put on the
payroll to receive transfer payments of all kinds. In effect, the
recipients of transfer payments and subsidies became pseudogovernment
employees who were able to dispense with the bother of reporting every day
to work.

When the magnitude of coercive force is more important than the efficient
deployment of resources, as was the case prior to 1989, it is all but
impossible for most governments to be controlled by their customers. When
returns to violence are high and rising, magnitude means more than
efficiency. Larger entities tend to prevail over smaller ones.

How did inefficiency fostered by democracy become a factor in its success
during the Age of Violence? The key to unraveling this apparent paradox
lies in recognizing two points:

1. Success for a sovereignty in the modern period lay not in creating
wealth but in creating a military force capable of deploying overpowering
violence against any other state. Money was needed to do that, but money
itself could not win a battle. The challenge was not to create a system
with the most efficient economy or the most rapid rate of growth, but to
create a system that could extract more resources and channel them into the
military. By its nature, military spending is an area where the financial
returns per se are low or nonexistent.

2. The easiest way to obtain permission to invest funds in activities with
little or no direct financial return, like tax payments, is to ask for
permission from someone other than the person whose money is coveted. One
of the ways that the Dutch were able to purchase Manhattan for twenty-three
dollars' worth of beads is that the particular Indians to whom they made
the offer were not the ones who properly owned it. "Getting to yes," as the
marketing people say, is much easier under those terms.... In fact, we
would be far more persuasive if we could rely instead upon the consent of
several people you do not even know. We could hold an ad hoc election, what
H. L. Mencken described, with less exaggeration than he might have thought,
as "an advanced auction of stolen goods." And to make the example more
realistic, we would agree to share some of the money we collected from you
with these anonymous bystanders in exchange for their support.


Why Customers Could Not Dominate

Those who paid for "protection" during the modern period were not in a
position to successfully deny resources to the sovereign, even acting
collectively, when doing so would simply have exposed them to being
overpowered by other, possibly more hostile states. This was an obvious
consideration during the Cold War. The customers, or taxpayers, who bore a
disproportionate share of the cost of government in the leading Western
industrial states were in no position to refuse to pay hefty taxes. The
result would have been to expose themselves to total confiscation by the
Soviet Union or another aggressive group capable of organizing violence.

Industrialism and Democracy

In 1760, the Polish national army comprised eighteen thousand soldiers.
This was a meager force compared to the armies commanded by rulers of
neighboring Austria, Prussia, and Russia, the least of whom could control a
standing army of 100,000 soldiers. In fact, the Polish national army in
1760 was small even in comparison with other units under arms within
Poland. The combined forces of the Polish nobility were thirty thousand men.

If the Polish king had been able to interact directly with millions of
individual Poles and tax them directly, rather than being limited to
extracting resources indirectly through the contributions of the powerful
Polish magnates, there is little doubt that the Polish central government
would have been in a position to raise far more revenues, and thus pay for
a larger army.

...the military disadvantage of failing to circumvent the wealthy and
powerful in gathering resources was decisive in the Age of Violence. Within
a few years, Poland ceased to exist as an independent country. It was
conquered by invasions from Austria, Prussia, and Russia, three countries
with armies each of which was many times bigger than Poland's small force.
In each of those countries, the rulers had found paths to circumvent the
capacity of the wealthy merchants and the nobility to limit the
commandeering of their resources.

During the Industrial Age prior to (the fall of the Belin Wall), democracy
emerged as the most militarily effective form of government precisely
because democracy made it difficult or impossible to impose effective
limits on the commandeering of resources by the state. Not only did
(citizens) face the aggressive menace of Communist systems, which could
produce large resources for military purposes since the state controlled
the entire economy. But true taxpayer control of government was also
impractical for another reason.

Millions of average citizens cannot work together effectively to protect
their interests. Because the obstacles to their cooperation are high, and
the return to any individual for successfully defending the group's common
interests is minimal, millions of ordinary citizens will not be as
successful in withholding their assets from the government as will smaller
groups with more favorable incentives.

Other things being equal, therefore, you would expect a higher proportion
of total resources to be commandeered by government in a mass democracy
than in an oligarchy, or in a system of fragmented sovereignty where
magnates wielded military power and fielded their own armies, as they did
everywhere in early-modern Europe prior to the eighteenth century.

Thus a crucial though seldom examined reason for the growth of democracy in
the Western world is the relative importance of negotiation costs at a time
when returns to violence were rising. It was always costlier to draw
resources from the few than from the many.

A relatively small, elite group of rich represent a more coherent and
effective body than a large mass of citizens. The small group has stronger
incentives to work together. It will almost inevitably be more effective at
protecting its interests than will a mass group. And even if most members
of the group choose not to cooperate with any common action, a few who are
rich may be capable of deploying enough resources to get the job done.

To summarize, the democratic nation-state succeeded during the past two
centuries for these hidden reasons:

1. There were rising returns to violence that made magnitude of force more
important than efficiency as a governing principle.

2. Incomes rose sufficiently above subsistence that it became possible for
the state to collect large amounts of total resources without having to
negotiate with powerful magnates who were capable of resisting.

3. Democracy proved sufficiently compatible with the operation of free
markets to be conducive to the generation of increasing amounts of wealth.

4. Democracy facilitated domination of government by its "employees,"
thereby assuring that it would be difficult to curtail expenditures,
including military expenditures.

5. Democracy as a decision-rule proved to be an effective antidote to the
ability of the wealthy to act in concert to restrict the nation-state's
ability to tax or otherwise protect their assets from invasion.

Democracy became the militarily winning strategy because it facilitated the
gathering of more resources into the hands of the state. Compared to other
styles of sovereignty that depended for their legitimacy on other
principles, such as the feudal levy, the divine right of kings, corporate
religious duty, or the voluntary contributions of the rich, mass democracy
became militarily the most potent because it was the surest way to gather
resources in an industrial economy.












From hua at chromatic.com  Mon Sep  8 18:46:05 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:46:05 +0800
Subject: Is Feinstein's comment a blessing in disguise?
Message-ID: <199709090124.SAA20631@ohio.chromatic.com>



    "Nothing other than some kind of mandatory key recovery really
    does the job," the California Democrat said at a hearing of the
    Senate Judiciary Committee's technology, terrorism, and government
    information subcommittee.

This comment may, in fact, be a powerful weapon against ANY control.

In fact, Feinstein is believing that no half-assed policy (including
the current policy and Kerrey's bill) will really help law enforcement
much.  I can imagine why Freeh would not just jump at that conclusion
full-force.  He is not that stupid.  If he were to hold onto that
conclusion too tightly, then there is little justification for any law
"encouraging" the proliferation of key-recovery products, as that
would be worthless in terms of providing relief to law enforcement.

Basically, Feinstein is providing further support for the
long-standing argument that unless you plug every leak (a.k.a. no
KR/GAK product), criminals will find the loop-hole and work around
government surveillence.

Ern






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Sep  8 19:05:45 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:05:45 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:

> The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
> Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
> us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
> of actions will then accelerate.
>
> And that could be a lot of fun.

Nuke Washington DC.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Sep  8 19:05:45 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:05:45 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:

> Actually, one of the UC Berkeley professors actually *got* a patent on key
> escrow methods.  Micali, as I recall.

Does Sylvio work for the Sicilian Mafia?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 19:18:29 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:18:29 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908183433.006ff4e8@popd.netcruiser>

>        (b) As of January 1, 1999, it shall be unlawful for any
>        person to manufacture for sale or distribution within
>        the U.S., distribute within the U.S., sell within the
>        U.S., or import into the U.S., any product that can be
>        used to encrypt communications or electronic
>        information, unless that product:
>
>         (1) includes features, such as key recovery, trusted 
>         third party compatibility or other means, that
>
>          (A) permit immediate decryption upon receipt of
>          decryption information by an authorized party without
>          the knowledge or cooperation of the person using such
>          encryption product; and

Translation:  If I whisper in someone's ear in cyberspace, and I do not
immediately provide a transcript of the conversation to the government, I
am in violation of the law, and subject to whatever penalties it specifies.

>          (B) is either enabled at the time of manufacture,
>          distribution, sale, or import, or may be enabled by the
>          purchase or end user; or

This is stupid.  Do Freeh & Co. really think any self-respecting pedophile
or terrorist is going to use GAKed crypto products, or that if GAK can be
disabled, that people won't disable it?  I predict that this section is
going to quietly disappear from the final version of the bill.

>         (2) can be used only on systems or networks that include
>         features, such as key recovery, trusted third party
>         compatibility or other means, that permit immediate
>         decryption by an authorized party without the knowledge
>         or cooperation of the person using such encryption
>         product.

This is stupid also.  If my ISP uses GAKed crypto protocols, can I use PGP
5.0?  Freeh & Co. can immediately decrypt the packet stream.  Am I jailbait
if all they get is "--------Begin PGP Message--------"?  What about
encrypted .wav stego?

Tim May allegedly said:
>The Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995, though apparently not being used in any
>significant way (yet), would have done some of the same sorts of things. If
>an organization was declared to be a terrorist-supporting organization,
>various sanctions would have applied to those who contributed money or
>certain other types of aid to such organizations. As others have noted, the
>Bureau of Thought Crimes has not yet issued a list of which organizations
>are considered terrorist.
>
>(One of my fondest hopes is that the Cypherpunks group makes this list. I'm
>hoping that enough support of various types provided to freedom fighters in
>the ZOG sections of Palestine will get us on this list. I'm itching for a
>confrontation with the jack-booted thugs, as you may know.)

I'm sure that the opposition to GAK expressed by most posters to the list
will be sufficient without our buying any Russian suitcase nukes for
Hezbollah.  However, I would caution you re provoking a confrontation with
the JBT's.  From a propagandist's perspective, they can smear your
reputation much more easily if you have a history of provocative actions
(like Jim Bell's stink bomb).  If you have never threatened anyone in your
life (even people who richly deserve it) and several armed individuals kick
in your door and you shoot them, you can look much more righteous in the
media than if you are constantly calling for the death of thousands.  OTOH,
if the situation is not avoidable, then "Give me liberty or give me death!"
 (In either case, pass the ammo.)

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

They came for the pedophiles using crypto, and I said nothing, because I am
not a pedophile.  They came for the drug dealers using crypto, and I did
nothing, because I am not involved with drugs.  They came for the
proponents of AP, and I did nothing, because I hoped that political change
could still be effected at the ballot box.  They banned non-GAK crypto, and
I purchased my quota of ammunition, because the Constitution guarantees
freedom of speech, the right to keep and bear arms, and protection against
unreasonable search and seizure.  They came for the users of non-GAKed
crypto, and I became the poster boy of a propaganda campaign denouncing
right-wing cryptolibertarians with guns.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From declan at well.com  Mon Sep  8 19:54:07 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:54:07 +0800
Subject: Stewart Baker's analysis of administration crypto-proposal
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Stewart Baker's analysis of administration crypto-proposal

[Some folks have asked me why I'm sending so much encryption-related
information recently. The answer is simple: this week will be a crucial
one in deciding how much privacy Americans will enjoy in the digital age.
This proposal is //at least// as important and newsworthy as the original
Clipper Chip was, and ranks up there with the Communications Decency Act.
Thanks to Stewart Baker for forwarding. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 18:19:24 EST
From: Stewart Baker 
To: declan at well.com

         Declan, here is a quick analysis of the latest leaked 
     Administration legislative draft on encryption.  Whether this language ever 
     sees the light of day in this form, however, is open to doubt.  With that 
     disclaimer, here's what the bill seems likely to do.
     
     Stewart Baker
     
     
          THE LANGUAGE
          
                    The draft borrows heavily from the structure and content of 
          the Kerrey/McCain legislation--it even retains the title, the "Secure 
          Public Networks Act".   In fact, the provisions in Titles IV through X 
          of McCain/Kerrey regarding the registration of certificate authorities 
          and key recovery agents, liability, criminal penalties, defenses, 
          international negotiations, authority of the Secretary of Commerce to 
          investigate compliance with the Act, and authority for the Attorney 
          General to bring actions to enjoin violations of the Act are largely 
          unchanged in this draft.  The significant changes are:
          
               --   gone is the section (102) that would prohibit mandatory 
          third party escrow of keys.  In its place is a new section (105) that 
          would prohibit, after January 1, 1999, the provision of encryption 
          services in the U.S., or the manufacture for sale or distribution in 
          the U.S. of encryption products/systems, that do not have a plaintext 
          recovery feature that may be turned on at the option of the user.
          
               --   gone is the exclusive emphasis on key recovery as the 
          technology for assuring plaintext recovery.  Instead, this legislation 
          would require products and systems that permit immediate decryption 
          without the knowledge or cooperation of the user.  The Attorney 
          General is to issue regulations describing these functional criteria, 
          but there is no provision requiring public notice and comment on such 
          regulations.
          
               --   gone is the language requiring key recovery agents to 
          disclose recovery information when presented with a subpoena.  In its 
          place is language that indicates a court order or court authorized 
          warrant is required before a key recovery agent may disclose recovery 
          information.  
          
               --   added is export license exception treatment for products 
          that are access or recovery enabled, regardless of algorithm, key 
          length,  or even whether the access feature is activated.  This would 
          be broader than McCain/Kerrey which would extend license exception 
          treatment to products with over 56-bit key lengths only if the product 
          includes an access feature and the access feature is turned on at the 
          time of export.
          
               --   retained is the provision to decontrol 56-bit encryption 
          after one time review.  However, the bill adds an Encryption Export 
          Advisory Board, composed of industry and government representatives, 
          to, among other things, recommend to the President whether the key 
          length of encryption exports to be decontrolled should be raised 
          beyond 56 bits.  The President retains the final decision making 
          authority, however.
          
               --   gone is the McCain/Kerrey provision that would authorize the 
          Secretary of Commerce to prohibit any exports that could be contrary 
          to U.S. security interests.
          
               --   added is a provision to permit license exceptions for voice 
          products with encryption if the Secretary of Commerce determines that 
          requiring an access feature  would be a competitive disadvantage and 
          permitting the export would be compatible with U.S. foreign and 
          national security policies.
          
               --   retained are the provisions that require the use of 
          accessible encryption products and services on any system used or 
          funded by the Government, but this draft sets a January 1, 1999 date 
          of compliance.
          
               --   contrary to earlier indications, there is no requirement for 
          certificate authorities registered under the Act to ensure recovery 
          information is escrowed with a recovery agent registered under the 
          Act.
          
          ANALYSIS
          
                    Even though expected, the big news with this draft is the 
          introduction of domestic control of encryption products and services 
          available in the U.S.  For many, the idea of such controls is simply 
          an unacceptable infringement on privacy.  But even for those who could 
          be persuaded of the need for such controls, the implementation date 
          provided (January 1, 1999) is unworkable.  Industry must have the time 
          to research and develop access technology appropriate to their 
          products, particularly in the telecommunications industry where the 
          demand for security is increasing, but there is little or no market 
          for key recovery and its associated infrastructure.  Likewise, 
          manufacturers cannot afford to write off the investments they have 
          made in existing security products or services by being compelled to 
          implement new designs before technology turnover would normally be 
          expected to occur.
          
                    A related concern would be to ensure new products with 
          access features may interoperate with products or services that are 
          already in use without such features.  It is unreasonable to expect 
          that users could afford to replace their existing systems with new 
          products that include access features.  The language of this draft 
          would seem to permit such interoperability since the access feature is 
          required only to be an option that may be turned on by the user, or 
          not.  But even if the legislation is understood as permitting such 
          interoperability, the cost to manufacturers and consumers of meeting 
          this new requirement could be substantial.  









From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  8 20:08:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:08:58 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 6:39 PM -0700 9/8/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Tim May  writes:
>
>> The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
>> Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
>> us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
>> of actions will then accelerate.
>>
>> And that could be a lot of fun.
>
>Nuke Washington DC.

Perhaps so, but as Stalin said, paraphrasedly,

"How many megatons do the Cypherpunks control?"

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep  8 20:10:20 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:10:20 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
Message-ID: <199709090151.CAA07992@notatla.demon.co.uk>



tcmay at got.net:

> Though it's understandable why so many are expressing anger, gloom,
> anxiety, and rage over the Freeh-Feinstein mandatory key escrow draft bill,
> a better attitude is that of joy.

> Any way it goes, this is good news for us.

> If the Safe Internet Act (or whatever it is finally called)  is passed, the
> Supreme Court will likely strike it down (on First and/or Fourth Amendment


Joy may be an overreaction.

I just wrote (in part) to ukcrypto at maillist.ox.ac.uk:

Perhaps the law will be passed, then struck down by courts as unconstitutional
(after campaigners have incurred some expense) and something else will
replace it days later.  I'm too young to be this cynical.




On another subject: Micali's patents are described in AC2.
(Page 97 is missing from the indexed list of Micali-mentioning pages,)

On page 98 Schneier says of the advantages of key escrow:
  "Well, there really aren't any".



--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Sep  8 20:15:03 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:15:03 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090254.VAA09220@manifold.algebra.com>



Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> 
> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> 
> 1.key input
> 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
>   XOR plain text

How do you generate "chaos"?

	- Igor.






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep  8 20:27:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:27:55 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709090328.WAA03757@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:54:31 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > 
> > Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> > 
> > 1.key input
> > 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> > 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> > 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
> >   XOR plain text
> 
> How do you generate "chaos"?

I can think of several ways right off...

 -  radioactive source 

 -  controlled water flow through a faucet

 -  waterwheel such that each bucket contains a hole of the correct size

 -  magnetic pendulum

 -  jello scintillation counter

 -  A-B chemical oscillators at their critical point

 -  a light detector placed under a tree in a breeze or wind

 -  Chaos Game

 -  Foucalt Dust

The real question is what algorithm is used to generate the random seeds.
The above mechanical systems (eg magnetic pendulum) are excellent sources of
random numbers whereas the algorithmic (eg Chaos Game) methods are more
suspect and open to breaking.

You might want to check out:

Fractals for the Classroom: Part 1; Introduction to Fractals and Chaos
Peitgen, Jurgens, Saupe
ISBN 0-387-97041-X
ISBN 0-540-97041-X

I haven't looked at Part 2 yet so I don't have a clue as to its applicability.
But considering the authors reputations I would suspect it would be worth
a check out (I am planning on buying a copy anyway).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From gnu at toad.com  Tue Sep  9 11:51:16 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Government has appealed the Bernstein case to the 9th Circuit
Message-ID: <199709091834.LAA01198@toad.com>


No great surprise.  We have received their Notice of Appeal.  We'll
scan it in and put it on the Web as soon as possible.  Only Lee Tien
has seen it yet, and he didn't mention anything exceptional in it.

Soon in http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/Legal/

	John





From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Sep  8 21:09:28 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:09:28 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709090328.WAA03757@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199709090358.WAA09761@manifold.algebra.com>



Jim Choate wrote:
> From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> 
> > Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > > 
> > > Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> > > 
> > > 1.key input
> > > 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> > > 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> > > 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
> > >   XOR plain text
> > 
> > How do you generate "chaos"?
> 
> I can think of several ways right off...
> 
>  -  radioactive source 
>  -  controlled water flow through a faucet
>  -  waterwheel such that each bucket contains a hole of the correct size
>  -  magnetic pendulum
>  -  jello scintillation counter
>  -  A-B chemical oscillators at their critical point
>  -  a light detector placed under a tree in a breeze or wind
>  -  Chaos Game
>  -  Foucalt Dust
> 
> The real question is what algorithm is used to generate the random seeds.

I think that another real question (which I wanted to ask) is how do you
generate "chaos" from these random seeds.

	- Igor.






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  8 21:18:55 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:18:55 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970908071919.4105.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:54 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>>
>>
>> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
>>
>> 1.key input
>> 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
>> 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
>> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
>>   XOR plain text
>
>How do you generate "chaos"?
>
>	- Igor.

Chaos may be generated with dripping water faucets, with alpha particle
emissions,  with Johnson noise.

It matters not, though, as schemes like this are dependent on key exchange,
and by repeatability of whatever "chaotic process" they employ.

They can be ignored.

The fact that "Nobuki Nakatuji" only appeared on our list days before the
revealing of his profound new breakthrough is telling. And all too
predictable.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  8 21:36:45 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:36:45 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
Message-ID: <19970909041824.464.qmail@hotmail.com>



P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
L Irrational number


P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.


Ch(n)
begin
Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
return Xn+1
end


f(K)
begin
w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j

delay=int(w/L)
return(double)(w/L-delay)
end


1.K input
2.delay generato
3.Ch(i) generato
4.P(i) acquire
5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
6.C(i) output



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep  8 21:42:32 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:42:32 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709090442.XAA04016@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" 
> Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 21:18:24 PDT

> P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
> L Irrational number
> 
> 
> P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
> K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.
> 
> 
> Ch(n)
> begin
> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> return Xn+1
> end
> 
> 
> f(K)
> begin
> w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j
> 
> delay=int(w/L)
> return(double)(w/L-delay)
> end
> 
> 
> 1.K input
> 2.delay generato
> 3.Ch(i) generato
> 4.P(i) acquire
> 5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
> 6.C(i) output

Nice but as noted by others, without a better explanation of what is going
on with Ch(i) the algorithm as detailed is useless.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ichudov at algebra.com  Mon Sep  8 21:57:08 1997
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:57:08 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709090415.XAA09883@manifold.algebra.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 7:54 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >> Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> >>
> >> 1.key input
> >> 2.input key generate chaos initial condition
> >> 3.input key generate chaos signal(random number)
> >> 4.chaos initial condition plus chaos signal
> >>   XOR plain text
> >
> >How do you generate "chaos"?
> >
> >	- Igor.
> 
> Chaos may be generated with dripping water faucets, with alpha particle
> emissions,  with Johnson noise.
> 
> It matters not, though, as schemes like this are dependent on key exchange,
> and by repeatability of whatever "chaotic process" they employ.
> 
> They can be ignored.
> 
> The fact that "Nobuki Nakatuji" only appeared on our list days before the
> revealing of his profound new breakthrough is telling. And all too
> predictable.

Tim, my question was related to items 2 and 3. I think that Nobuku san
suggested a way to generate a stream of pseudo-random bits from an 
inputted text. The important question is, how Prof. Nobuku is going to
do it exactly. If done right, I believe that his system is great if the
key is never reused.

Is that correct?

Sayonara

	- Igor.






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  8 21:58:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:58:22 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:15 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>Tim, my question was related to items 2 and 3. I think that Nobuku san
>suggested a way to generate a stream of pseudo-random bits from an
>inputted text. The important question is, how Prof. Nobuku is going to
>do it exactly. If done right, I believe that his system is great if the
>key is never reused.
>
>Is that correct?
>
>Sayonara

Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
(e,g, "chaos") is interesting?

Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?

As for "his system is great if the key is never reused," think about it.

As Santayana-san put it, each generation which fails to learn the lessons
of cryptography is condemned to reinvent the one time pad, and to give it a
trendy new name (virtual, chaotic, aptical, gaos, etc.).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Sep  8 22:10:28 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:10:28 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709090450.XAA10120@manifold.algebra.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:15 PM -0700 9/8/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Tim, my question was related to items 2 and 3. I think that Nobuku san
> >suggested a way to generate a stream of pseudo-random bits from an
> >inputted text. The important question is, how Prof. Nobuku is going to
> >do it exactly. If done right, I believe that his system is great if the
> >key is never reused.
> >
> >Is that correct?
> >
> >Sayonara
> 
> Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
> (e,g, "chaos") is interesting?

I think that what Nobuku described is not a private key system (because
keys cannot be reused), but rather an approach to generating one time 
pads.

Whether something that is interesting to me should also be interesting to
you is open to question.

> Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?

I think that one more good way of doing it would not hurt.

> As for "his system is great if the key is never reused," think about it.

> As Santayana-san put it, each generation which fails to learn the lessons
> of cryptography is condemned to reinvent the one time pad, and to give it a
> trendy new name (virtual, chaotic, aptical, gaos, etc.).

So what if he reinvents something? Most of what high school and undergrad 
students do is learning and reinventing ideas that are already known. That
does not make study less exciting.

The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates the
key from the input.

	- Igor.






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  8 22:14:55 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:14:55 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970909050407.8678.qmail@hotmail.com>



>
>The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates 
>the key from the input.
>
>
The key generates from chaos function.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Sep  8 22:17:33 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:17:33 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
In-Reply-To: <19970909041824.464.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090458.XAA10188@manifold.algebra.com>



Nobuku,

Could you please write your encryption algorithm in some more formal
language (like C or Pascal) more completely? At least to me, the way you
presented it is a bit hard to understand.

Thank you

igor

Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> 
> P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
> L Irrational number
> 
> 
> P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
> K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.
> 
> 
> Ch(n)
> begin
> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> return Xn+1
> end
> 
> 
> f(K)
> begin
> w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j
> 
> delay=int(w/L)
> return(double)(w/L-delay)
> end
> 
> 
> 1.K input
> 2.delay generato
> 3.Ch(i) generato
> 4.P(i) acquire
> 5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
> 6.C(i) output
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 



	- Igor.






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  8 22:19:16 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:19:16 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970909050442.3821.qmail@hotmail.com>



>
>The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates 
>the key from the input.
>
>
The key generates from chaos function.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Sep  8 22:23:55 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:23:55 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970909050442.3821.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090509.AAA10295@manifold.algebra.com>



I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.

igor

Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> >
> >The interesting question that Nobuku can answer is how he generates 
> >the key from the input.
> >
> >
> The key generates from chaos function.
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 



	- Igor.






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 22:35:14 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:35:14 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908222556.00695390@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>>Nuke Washington DC.
>Perhaps so, but as Stalin said, paraphrasedly,
>"How many megatons do the Cypherpunks control?"
Well, cryptographers control most of them; how many of them have
become Cypherpunks is anybody's guess (low, probably, but hey....)


Autonomasia wrote:
> Joy may be an overreaction.
Well, ok, but at least a certain cheerful cynicism seems called for :-)






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  8 22:39:05 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:39:05 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <199709090528.WAA07380@f48.hotmail.com>



>
>I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>
>
Ch generate 

begin
Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
return Xn+1
end

Do you understand Japanese ?
If you understand Japanese,
I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 22:41:52 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:41:52 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908222848.00695358@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>> Actually, one of the UC Berkeley professors actually *got* a patent on key
>> escrow methods.  Micali, as I recall.

Yup.  '"Fair" Cryptosystems'    

>Does Sylvio work for the Sicilian Mafia?

Close, though no exploding Cuban cigar.
   http://www.fourmilab.ch/#evilempire









From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 23:14:11 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:14:11 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History / Wiretap DiFi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908230135.006a94a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 12:23 PM 9/8/97 -0700, Eric Blossom wrote:
>On of my favorite analyses of a similar scenario is contained in "The
>Curve of Binding Energy" by John McPhee (available at your local
>Borders or Barnes and Noble). 

Definitely a worthwhile read.  Unless I'm mixing it up with another book,
it also is a good history of now political entrepreneur John Aristotle
Phillips,
the kid from Princeton who designed a nuclear bomb for his junior physics
project because he needed a good paper to pull his grades up.
Some of his work was actual physics; much was social engineering,
like asking the guy at duPont what explosives they'd used.
The Pakistani government, which at the time was lobbying Congress
for assistance with their purely peaceful electric-power nuclear reactors,
was also trying to buy a copy of Phillips's bomb design paper...

> He basically interviews a high energy physicist and works out the 
Ted Taylor?
>A key point was that a high efficiency device is not required.  
>A dirty 1.5 kiloton gadget placed on the 40th floor of the World Trade
>Center takes out one tower and kills a shit load of folks in the
>adjacent tower. 
On the other hand, 0.5 kt of ANFO in the basement wasn't quite enough
to take the towers out.


However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"










From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep  8 23:25:31 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:25:31 +0800
Subject: Java Source for Encryption...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970908230933.006a2454@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 04:34 PM 9/8/97 -0400, Peter Wayner wrote, to coderpunks:
>Is anyone giving away Java source code for public-key encryption?


What evil lurks in the heart of the Internet?  AltaVista Knows....

Besides www.systemics.com, which has free Java crypto
there's also www.baltimore.ie which has commercial Java crypto as
well as some free downloadware.  

However, Baltimore's web pages also talk about how they're the winner 
of the EuroTrust TTP/CA development contract.  Sigh.









From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Sep  8 23:25:54 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:25:54 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <199709090528.WAA07380@f48.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709090543.AAA10682@manifold.algebra.com>



Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> 
> >
> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
> >
> >
> Ch generate 
> 
> begin
> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> return Xn+1
> end

What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.

> Do you understand Japanese ?

Nihongo ga dekimasen, wasuremashita:) 1991-ni benkyo simashita. Rosia-no
hito deshita, Amerika-de ikimashita.

Panikovsky-san nihongo-ga totemo dekimasu.

Yokunai hito ja
Nai noni do shite
Wasureta nijimu
Una sera de Tokyo, a-a

... that's a neat song I remember.

> If you understand Japanese,
> I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.

I like C more.

	- Igor.






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  8 23:35:26 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:35:26 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <19970909061833.14066.qmail@hotmail.com>





>Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>> >
>> >
>> Ch generate 
>> 
>> begin
>> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
>> return Xn+1
>> end
>
>What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
>
It mean Chaos function.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From frantz at netcom.com  Tue Sep  9 00:01:58 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:01:58 +0800
Subject: A helluva way to run a country, er, a world
In-Reply-To: <970906105358_284527778@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:41 AM -0700 9/6/97, Tim May wrote:
>But look on the bright side: the militias and other patriot groups are
>getting a huge bounce out of this. Stay far away from the nests of vipers.
>Jefferson's wisdom that we need a revolution every generation or so is
>apt...though it's been about 180 years too long.

I claim the overthrow of Jim Crow laws and the Vietnam war in the 1960s and
1970s were the last revolution.  We're right on schedule for the next one.
Civilization can be measured as the inverse of the blood shed during
revolutions.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From The.Givers  Tue Sep  9 17:58:21 1997
From: The.Givers (The.Givers)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:58:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Take a chance and WIN!
Message-ID: <199709100057.RAA04615@toad.com>


If you would like to enter for a chance to win $40,000 in cash, a 1997 Corvette, 
or a 1997 Tahoe winners choice... (State Registration #07865)

Please click here 

Thank you for your time.
The Givers Foundation (Charity Raffle)





From hvdl at sequent.com  Tue Sep  9 04:14:52 1997
From: hvdl at sequent.com (Unicorn)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:14:52 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970909130000.60003@sequent.com>



--- On Sep 08, Eric Blossom apparently wrote ----------------------------------

> > (Conventional explosives could also cause  a billion or more dollars
> > worth of damage  to a major wafer fabrication plant,  of course, but
> > the manufacturing  capacity could  be shifted to  other plants  in a
> > matter  of months.  Some  major short  sale  opportunities, but  not
> > nearly what a nuke could do to  a _region_, in terms of direct blast
> > effects, fallout  in surrounding  city blocks  (tens of  square city
> > blocks, at the least, esp. give OSHA standards, etc.), and the sheer
> > panic effect.)

>
> On of my favorite analyses of  a similar scenario is contained in "The
> Curve  of Binding  Energy" by  John  McPhee (available  at your  local
> Borders or  Barnes and Noble).  He basically interviews a  high energy
> physicist  and works  out the  back  of the  envelope calculations  on
> yields, where to get the plutonium, where and how to place the device,
> etc. A key point was that a  high efficiency device is not required. A
> dirty 1.5 kiloton  gadget placed on the 40th floor  of the World Trade
> Center takes  out one  tower and  kills a  shit load  of folks  in the
> adjacent tower. Includes other rules of  thumb such as "one kiloton of
> explosives vaporizes one  kiloton of matter". YMMV, don't  try this at
> home kids, etc, etc.

Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.

But what a dreadfull way to die...

--- and thus sprach: Eric Blossom  -----------------------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster on http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/hvdl ==============
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog with a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========






From dave_null at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  9 04:22:58 1997
From: dave_null at hotmail.com (Dave Null)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:22:58 +0800
Subject: InfoWar / Steal This Mind / Part III of 'The True Story of  the    InterNet
Message-ID: <19970909111003.402.qmail@hotmail.com>






The True Story of the Internet Part II











The True Story of the InterNet


Part III






InfoWar




Final Frontier of the Digital 
Revolution




Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain






by TruthMonger <tm at dev.null>








Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing







InfoWar Table of Contents




    

  • Steal This Mind!

    







Steal This Mind!





The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard
of his laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay
before him.


Who was he? What was his name? Why couldn't he remember?

Was it the doctors? It had to be the doctors, that was
the only explanation.


"Hello, Arnold. How are you fooling today?"


The man furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding his
important work from the prying eyes of the doctor. ("I
won't be fooled again." he vowed to himself, "no
matter who I am.")


"Hello, Dr. the Platypus." Arnold (he knew that
wasn't his real name) said, cautiously.


"Peas, call me ?." the doctor replied, with a
warm, caring smile. 

The doctor nodded toward the laptop, saying, "Oar
ewe still having those confusions about being 'ewe know who'?"


Arnold hated it when the doctors did this…teasing
him about his memory loss in regard to who was really,
on the InterNet, where a person could still be free…could
still be anything he wanted to be, as long as he was a cleaver
forager. ("Damn!" thought Arnold. "now
he's got me doing it, too. I have to resist."
)

"I'll ask the CypherPunks who I am." Arnold said,
defiantly. "They are my friends."


Dr. ? the Platypus roared out in laughter, shaking his head in
disbelief that this lunatic was so far out of touch with reality.
He decided that it would be rude to have all the fun himself,
so he turned to the grouchy old man who had just sat down beside
him and said, "Well, I think Arnold needs a second opinion.
What do you think, Doctor May?"


A 34th degree Mason, Dr. Tim C. May knew that it would
be cruel to feed this deranged crackpot's delusions…so he
proceeded to do so.

"Of course they are your friends, Arnold. That's
why they have agreed to help us with your treatment."

Dr. May smiled at Dr. the Platypus, who was grinning from
ear to ear, and continued.

"We told them that mentioning 'you know who' on the CypherPunk
mailing list would only feed your illusions of grandeur, so your
dear, dear friends, the CypherPunks, have agreed not to tell you
the name of your imaginary InterNet persona."


Arnold was pouting, now. He knew they were making fun of him.


"You're lying!" he said. "I'm no 
foal!"


Dr. the Platypus laughed loudly, once again, at this sign that
his treatments were having the desired affect on Arnold's grammar.


"Berry good, Arnold. Ewe are doing much bladder, but I
thank we will have to increase the number of your agraphia treat
mints just the same. As a matter of fact, we have already called
in a specialist to augment your electroshock treat mints with
a special toilet plunger technique developed at the Mayonnaise
Clinic in Forest Hills, NY, by some very experienced police 
sturgeons."


"His name is Hun." Dr. May added. "Dr.
Attila T. Hun."


The two doctors laughed heartily, once again sending Arnold into
a fit of stubborn insolence.


"I'll find out from the Magic Circle." Arnold
stated boldly, "They'll tell me. I'm a very important
person. I'm writing Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet'
for them. I am calling it "Space Aliens Hide My Drugs."


Arnold was relieved to see Dr. Back, joining the group gathered
at his table. Even in his confused state, he was certain that
Dr. Back was on his side. He was a good man.


Dr. Adam Back put his arm around Arnold tenderly, and looked into
his eyes with deep concern, saying, "I'm afraid that I
have some bad news for you, Arnold."

He paused for a moment, smiling at the other doctors, and
then continued, "Part III is titled 'InfoWar.' It is being
written by a wide variety of people, just like Part I and Part
II."


Dr. Back's eyes then grew cold and hard as he leaned closer to
Arnold, until they sat face to face, only inches between them.


In a steadily rising voice he told Arnold, "It's going
to be about real CypherPunks and real members
of the Magic Circle, not about some stupid, Carpetbagging,
rude, insane interloper who couldn't carry the Jockstrap
of REAL members of the CypherPunks and the Magic Circle. DO YOU
UNDERSTAND!!??"




Arnold was shaking in his boots, clutching his laptop in his arms
as if it were a magic talisman which could spirit him away, back
to the virtual reality of the InterNet, where he was safe. His
body began twitching and he fell to the floor, beginning to shake
violently.


"He's having another fit!" Dr. the Platypus cried
out to a nearby aide. "Quick, get the toilet plunger."


The aide rushed over with the toilet plunger, as Dr. Tim C. May
said, "Now place it between his teeth, so he doesn't bite
his tongue."


The aide looked at the vile, feces encrusted handle on the toilet
plunger and asked, hesitantly, "Are you sure that's a
good idea, Dr. May?"


Dr. ? the Platypus put his hand on the aide's shoulder, to reassure
him.

"It's OK, Dr. May is TruthMonger. Trust him…"





Copyright 1997 Dave Null Publishing


Dave Null <dave_null at hotmail.com>





"The Xenix 
Chainsaw Massacre"




"WebWorld & the 
Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"







______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From dave_null at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  9 04:28:17 1997
From: dave_null at hotmail.com (Dave Null)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:28:17 +0800
Subject: Steal This Mind (InfoWar / Part III of The True Story of the    InterNet
Message-ID: <199709091119.EAA20424@f48.hotmail.com>



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II






The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger 




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Steal This Mind!



Steal This Mind!


The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard
of his laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay
before him.

Who was he? What was his name? Why couldn't he remember?
Was it the doctors? It had to be the doctors, that was
the only explanation.

"Hello, Arnold. How are you fooling today?"

The man furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding his
important work from the prying eyes of the doctor. ("I
won't be fooled again." he vowed to himself, "no
matter who I am.")

"Hello, Dr. the Platypus." Arnold (he knew that
wasn't his real name) said, cautiously.

"Peas, call me ?." the doctor replied, with a
warm, caring smile. 
The doctor nodded toward the laptop, saying, "Oar
ewe still having those confusions about being 'ewe know who'?"

Arnold hated it when the doctors did this�teasing
him about his memory loss in regard to who was really,
on the InterNet, where a person could still be free�could
still be anything he wanted to be, as long as he was a cleaver
forager. ("Damn!" thought Arnold. "now
he's got me doing it, too. I have to resist."
)
"I'll ask the CypherPunks who I am." Arnold said,
defiantly. "They are my friends."

Dr. ? the Platypus roared out in laughter, shaking his head in
disbelief that this lunatic was so far out of touch with reality.
He decided that it would be rude to have all the fun himself,
so he turned to the grouchy old man who had just sat down beside
him and said, "Well, I think Arnold needs a second opinion.
What do you think, Doctor May?"

A 34th degree Mason, Dr. Tim C. May knew that it would
be cruel to feed this deranged crackpot's delusions�so he
proceeded to do so.
"Of course they are your friends, Arnold. That's
why they have agreed to help us with your treatment."
Dr. May smiled at Dr. the Platypus, who was grinning from
ear to ear, and continued.
"We told them that mentioning 'you know who' on the CypherPunk
mailing list would only feed your illusions of grandeur, so your
dear, dear friends, the CypherPunks, have agreed not to tell you
the name of your imaginary InterNet persona."

Arnold was pouting, now. He knew they were making fun of him.

"You're lying!" he said. "I'm no foal!"

Dr. the Platypus laughed loudly, once again, at this sign that
his treatments were having the desired affect on Arnold's grammar.

"Berry good, Arnold. Ewe are doing much bladder, but I
thank we will have to increase the number of your agraphia treat
mints just the same. As a matter of fact, we have already called
in a specialist to augment your electroshock treat mints with
a special toilet plunger technique developed at the Mayonnaise
Clinic in Forest Hills, NY, by some very experienced police sturgeons."

"His name is Hun." Dr. May added. "Dr.
Attila T. Hun."

The two doctors laughed heartily, once again sending Arnold into
a fit of stubborn insolence.

"I'll find out from the Magic Circle." Arnold
stated boldly, "They'll tell me. I'm a very important
person. I'm writing Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet'
for them. I am calling it "Space Aliens Hide My Drugs."

Arnold was relieved to see Dr. Back, joining the group gathered
at his table. Even in his confused state, he was certain that
Dr. Back was on his side. He was a good man.

Dr. Adam Back put his arm around Arnold tenderly, and looked into
his eyes with deep concern, saying, "I'm afraid that I
have some bad news for you, Arnold."
He paused for a moment, smiling at the other doctors, and
then continued, "Part III is titled 'InfoWar.' It is being
written by a wide variety of people, just like Part I and Part
II."

Dr. Back's eyes then grew cold and hard as he leaned closer to
Arnold, until they sat face to face, only inches between them.

In a steadily rising voice he told Arnold, "It's going
to be about real CypherPunks and real members
of the Magic Circle, not about some stupid, Carpetbagging,
rude, insane interloper who couldn't carry the Jockstrap
of REAL members of the CypherPunks and the Magic Circle. DO YOU
UNDERSTAND!!??"


Arnold was shaking in his boots, clutching his laptop in his arms
as if it were a magic talisman which could spirit him away, back
to the virtual reality of the InterNet, where he was safe. His
body began twitching and he fell to the floor, beginning to shake
violently.

"He's having another fit!" Dr. the Platypus cried
out to a nearby aide. "Quick, get the toilet plunger."

The aide rushed over with the toilet plunger, as Dr. Tim C. May
said, "Now place it between his teeth, so he doesn't bite
his tongue."

The aide looked at the vile, feces encrusted handle on the toilet
plunger and asked, hesitantly, "Are you sure that's a
good idea, Dr. May?"

Dr. ? the Platypus put his hand on the aide's shoulder, to reassure
him.
"It's OK, Dr. May is TruthMonger. Trust him�"



Copyright 1997 Dev Null Publishing

Dev Null 


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Tue Sep  9 05:23:12 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:23:12 +0800
Subject: Nuke Washington, DC
Message-ID: <54iRce93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



It's a pity Jim Bell's in jail.  If he saw this thread, he would have
suggested a slew of chemicals that could be dumped surreptitously in
the ater supply and not dectected until everybody is dead.

(Yes, adding radioactive materials to "conventional" explosives is
a pretty old idea.  The allies kept talking about it during WWII.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  9 05:23:57 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:23:57 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709091229.HAA04999@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" 
> Subject: Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:18:33 PDT

> >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> >> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.

I think Igor got a bruised ego...

> >> Ch generate 
> >> 
> >> begin
> >> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> >> return Xn+1
> >> end
> >
> >What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.

More explicity it is a weird IFS nomenclature (I believe). What is being
said here near as I can tell is:

Take some function X and takes it's output for the n'th result and use it as
the input for calculating n+1.

We take the n'th value and subtract it from 1, assuming the RNG function
returns 0 <= x <= 1, and feed this into X take the result and multiply by
some scalar, a, producing Xn+1.

Not shure exactly why the subtraction from unity is in there. All it really
does is give you a number > .5 if you are less than .5 and visa versa.
Doesn't enhance the IFS in any meaningful way that I can see.

The scalar multiplier, a, isn't doing anything but scaling the output.
Again it isn't effecting the IFS in a meaningful way that I can tell.

It would be more interesting to know the specific X's since this is
what will determine the 'level' of chaos that results since this is what
will define the strange attractor.

Section 1.3 onward of the reference I mentioned previously goes into some
detail on the various feedback processes and how to describe them somewhat
formaly. It's called a 'One Step Feedback Machine'.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  9 06:34:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:34:45 +0800
Subject: Latest amendment to SAFE crypto bill
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:19:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: "--Todd Lappin-->" 
Cc: Lizard , "Brock N. Meeks" ,
    tbetz at pobox.com, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Square One, (Was: Useless Crypto Legislation)

Things are heating up even more. At this morning's National Security
committee markup in the House, SAFE will be hit by an amendment sponsored
by Weldon and Dellums. It doesn't focus on key recovery; rather it likely
will delay the effective date of the act. "We need the time for our
defense and intelligence agencies to prepare," says one source who drafted
it.

No committee member, even the SAFE cosponsors, has said they'll oppose it.

-Declan



On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, --Todd Lappin--> wrote:

> >At 12:12 AM 9/7/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:.
> >
> >Thanks, Declan.  I think anyone that's followed this closely isn't
> >surprised, but it's the long slow march that gets us.  These moves are
> >becoming so brazen now... it's incredible.
> 
> Indeed.  Brock's crypto work has been consistently kick ass.  He's schooled
> a lot of us in what this struggle is all about.
> 
> I too have been brushing up on my history of the Crypto Wars, and our
> current dilemma is giving me a nasty feeling of deja vu.







From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Sep  9 06:42:37 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:42:37 +0800
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <34152818.2B83@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <199709091331.IAA12842@manifold.algebra.com>



SYCHOSIS3D wrote:
> 
> I am getting flooded with cypherpunk posts. I AM on this list, and
> wouldlike to be removed. thank you
> 

You are not on _my_ list. Try to check other cypherpunks lists.

ssz and cyberpass, PLEASE take this gentleman out!

	- Igor.






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Sep  9 06:43:22 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:43:22 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970909061833.14066.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709091326.IAA12788@manifold.algebra.com>



Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
> >> Ch generate 
> >> 
> >> begin
> >> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> >> return Xn+1
> >> end
> >
> >What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
> >
> It mean Chaos function.

How do you calculate this function?

Thank you.

	- Igor.






From fjegan at airmail.net  Tue Sep  9 07:43:00 1997
From: fjegan at airmail.net (Frank)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:43:00 +0800
Subject: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970909092004.00721208@mail.airmail.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 1881 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Sep  9 08:51:18 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:51:18 +0800
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <199709091331.IAA12842@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> You are not on _my_ list. Try to check other cypherpunks lists.
> 
> ssz and cyberpass, PLEASE take this gentleman out!
> 
> 	- Igor.

Igor, you know better, all AP requests should be sent to the AP bot
anonymously!

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From amp at pobox.com  Tue Sep  9 09:20:19 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:20:19 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),was Democracy is the true enemy...
In-Reply-To: <199709081954.MAA02751@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 




 
> the public needs to eventually learn that for every dollar they send
> to washington, they get only a fraction back, no matter how lucrative
> their own pork. the problem with our
> politics is that voters have not realized that they are almost always
> cheating themselves when they try to cheat their neighbors. it's a shell
> game that they keep playing as long as they think someone else is paying.

Agreed.

> I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
> there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
> after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
> one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
> users, any more than software could do the same.

No intrinsic flaws in democracy? 

Surely you jest. 

Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep getting together to decide what's for 
lunch.

Please feel free to peruse Article 4, section for of the U.S. Constitution 
at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7500/const.htm#cIV4 
The authors of this document "guarantee" only one thing, that is a 
republican form of government. When I hear congresscritters and media 
whores singing the praises of "democracy", I want to puke.


---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/09/97
Time: 09:26:22
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: We're not surprised

---

http://epic.org/crypto/ban/fbi_dox/

FOR RELEASE:  August 16, 1995, 2:00 p.m. EST
       J
            WASHINGTON, DC - Newly-released government documents show 
       that key federal agencies concluded more than two years ago that 
       the "Clipper Chip" encryption initiative will only succeed if 
       alternative security techniques are outlawed.  The Electronic 
       Privacy Information Center (EPIC) obtained the documents from the 
       Federal Bureau of Investigation under the Freedom of Information 
       Act.  EPIC, a non-profit research group, received hundreds of 
       pages of material from FBI files concerning Clipper and 
       cryptography.
       J
            Clipper, and its underlying key-escrow encryption technology, 
       are designed to guarantee government agents "real-time" access to 
       encrypted communications.  This is accomplished by placing an 
       extra set of decryption "keys" in the hands of designated "escrow 
       agents."
       J
            The conclusions contained in the documents appear to conflict 
       with frequent Administration claims that use of Clipper technology 
       will remain "voluntary."  Critics of the government's initiative, 
       including EPIC, have long maintained that the Clipper "key-escrow 
       encryption" technique would only serve its stated purpose if made 
       mandatory.  According to the FBI documents, that view is shared by 
       the Bureau, the National Security Agency (NSA) and the Department 
       of Justice (DOJ).


            In a "briefing document" titled "Encryption: The Threat, 
       Applications and Potential Solutions," and sent to the National 
       Security Council in February 1993, the FBI, NSA and DOJ concluded 
       that:
       J
            Technical solutions, such as they are, will only work if 
            they are incorporated into *all* encryption products.  
            To ensure that this occurs, legislation mandating the 
            use of Government-approved encryption products or 
            adherence to Government encryption criteria is required.
       J
            Likewise, an undated FBI report titled "Impact of Emerging 
       Telecommunications Technologies on Law Enforcement" observes that 
       "[a]lthough the export of encryption products by the United States 
       is controlled, domestic use is not regulated."  The report 
       concludes that "a national policy embodied in legislation is 
       needed."  Such a policy, according to the FBI, must ensure "real-
       time decryption by law enforcement" and "prohibit[] cryptography 
       that cannot meet the Government standard."
       J
            The FBI conclusions stand in stark contrast to public 
       assurances that the government does not intend to prohibit the use 
       of non-escrowed encryption.  Testifying before a Senate Judiciary 
       Subcommittee on May 3, 1994, Assistant Attorney General Jo Ann 
       Harris asserted that:
       J
            As the Administration has made clear on a number of 
            occasions, the key-escrow encryption initiative is a 
            voluntary one; we have absolutely no intention of 
            mandating private use of a particular kind of 
            cryptography, nor of criminalizing the private use of 
            certain kinds of cryptography.
       J
             According to EPIC Legal Counsel David Sobel, the newly-
       disclosed information "demonstrates that the architects of the 
       Clipper program -- NSA and the FBI -- have always recognized that 
       key-escrow must eventually be mandated.  As privacy advocates and 
       industry have always said, Clipper does nothing for law 
       enforcement unless the alternatives are outlawed."
       J
            Scanned images of several key documents are available via the 
       World Wide Web at the EPIC Home Page:
       J
                 http://www.epic.org/crypto/ban/fbi_dox/
       J
       J
       J
                                     -30-








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep  9 10:07:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:07:46 +0800
Subject: Suitcase for sale
Message-ID: <199709091632.SAA17805@basement.replay.com>



Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.

Scheduled to check in; check the weight.

For details contact: toto at sk.sympatico.ca







From apollo at nevwest.com  Wed Sep 10 01:09:25 1997
From: apollo at nevwest.com (apollo at nevwest.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:09:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BULK EMAIL 101 - How To Make A Fortune In Bulk Email!
Message-ID: <199709100729.AAA22953@flamingo.nevwest.com>


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From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Sep  9 10:53:11 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:53:11 +0800
Subject: somebody had to do it...
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

It'd be such a shame to just let Toto's latest rantings go homeless, so of
course I've given them a home.  Postings for the "InfoWar" chronicle will be
put up at http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3/ .  I haven't done a nice
index yet, and I'm not likely to do so for a while.  New chapters will be
posted in a more-or-less "as I get around to it" fashion.  If two people
submit a chapter with the same number more or less simultaneously, I'll
probably put up the one that's more entertaining.  (I'll probably put the
others up too, though. :)

dave


- -- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBWHuq6m0j5YvamrEQL/EACeKNJq1XIzXPIJZOSjqaio0K9zdKoAoN3q
KQZADy9007CR6dLOd9Fc9wzZ
=zYRF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep  9 10:56:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:56:10 +0800
Subject: Chelsea Clinton's PGP
Message-ID: <199709091743.TAA24757@basement.replay.com>




   Stanford Newspaper Promises to Help Chelsea Clinton Keep Low Profile
   AP
   08-SEP-97
   
   STANFORD, Calif. (AP) Don't look for news about Chelsea Clinton in
   Stanford University's school paper: The editor is promising to treat
   the first freshman like any other student.
   
   Chelsea, accompanied by her parents, is expected on campus Sept. 19,
   when 1,600 first-year students move into their dormitories and begin
   several days of orientation.
   
   Like the mainstream media, the Stanford Daily plans to cover the
   Clintons' arrival and their participation that day at a welcoming
   ceremony for freshmen and their parents.
   
   But after that, said Carolyn Sleeth, the Daily's editor in chief,
   Chelsea "will be treated by us as a student, a regular student."
   
   That means her classroom and social life will largely go unreported.
   
   "Of course, if she involves herself in a newsworthy event, we'll cover
   it for example, if she founds a Stanford Democratic Club," Sleeth
   said.
   
   On the other hand, the student editor said if Chelsea were to get a
   speeding ticket or violate some minor campus rule, it would be
   ignored.
   
   "We wouldn't do a story if another student got a speeding ticket,"
   Sleeth said.
   
   Sleeth also said a gag order of sorts will be imposed on Daily
   employees, barring them from talking or as she put it, "punditing"
   with the "outsider press" about Chelsea. Anyone who does so will be
   fired, she said.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep  9 11:06:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:06:44 +0800
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
Message-ID: <199709091757.TAA26157@basement.replay.com>




   (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
   By Douglas Hayward, TechWire

   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
   the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
   create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
   a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
   TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.
   
   ...Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be well
   planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a global
   scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States. alone, there
   are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
   transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
   is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
   jurisdiction over a particular transaction.
   
   ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
   these roads, in order to protect people." TW

http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/1997/09/0909tax.html






From 30455511 at msn.com  Wed Sep 10 02:07:08 1997
From: 30455511 at msn.com (30455511 at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: WARNING - Are you being Investigated ?
Message-ID: <>





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From 30455511 at msn.com  Wed Sep 10 02:07:08 1997
From: 30455511 at msn.com (30455511 at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: WARNING - Are you being Investigated ?
Message-ID: <>





ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED????



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From freebiz at yourhouse.com  Wed Sep 10 02:24:40 1997
From: freebiz at yourhouse.com (freebiz at yourhouse.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:24:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FREE BUSINESS INCLUDING OVER $600.00 IN SOFTWARE!
Message-ID: <199709100920.JAA38020@out2.ibm.net>


Please pardon the intrusion......

>>>If you find mail such as this offensive I sincerely
apoligize.  Please type REMOVE in the subject heading, 
if you do not type REMOVE, there is no way for you 
to be REMOVED. Thank You.<<<

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    Welcome to your very own "FREE INTERNET BUSINESS". Please 
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   START TODAY, FREE! 

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Then "Email me" with your Name, Address, Phone Number, E-mail address,
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your Netbiz package and your Freedom unlock code.  

A "Very Bright Future" Starts For You "TODAY"! 

YOU ARE "NOW" IN BUSINESS! That quick, that simple, that easy! 

I look forward to your success,

Daniel B. Hait
Integrity Enterprises, Ltd.
Phone: (414) 669-3722 
E-mail: freebiznis at juno.com
Netel ID# DH728893

PS: A PERSONAL TESTIMONIALS
I have signed up 16 people in as many days using this program!
I have belonged to another telecom program and only 1 signup 
after 2 months. Giving away Free software that benifits the
buisness is GREAT!             Charles Blaisdell


Within 1 hour of me mailing the above letter out to recepients, I had 
3 people sign up for this business.  Within 4 days I had 8 people sign up.
By the end of the week I had 14 people on my 1st level and 3 on my second.
I didn't have to have any personal contact with them whatsoever. I'm at the 
end of my second week and I have over 25 people.  TEL3  Did it all!      
                                            Daniel Hait

PSS: I am providing a secret site to all in my downline that
has links to over 1,600 places to advertise for FREE!

PPSS:  As a final added bonus, you will receive the URL address
containing over 50 MILLION email addresses!!

                         HOW CAN ANYONE PASS UP AN OPPORTUNITY LIKE THIS????

















From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep  9 11:38:09 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:38:09 +0800
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
Message-ID: 



The other shoe just stepped on a banana peel...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:57:48 +0200 (MET DST)
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
X-001: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting
X-002: Report misuse of this automated service to 
X-URL: http://www.replay.com/remailer/
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)


   (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
   By Douglas Hayward, TechWire

   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
   the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
   create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
   a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
   TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.

   ...Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be well
   planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a global
   scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States. alone, there
   are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
   transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
   is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
   jurisdiction over a particular transaction.

   ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
   these roads, in order to protect people." TW

http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/1997/09/0909tax.html

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From usacm_dc at acm.org  Wed Sep 10 03:01:33 1997
From: usacm_dc at acm.org (ACM US Public Policy Office)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 03:01:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE
Message-ID: 



PRESS RELEASE

Association for Computing
U.S. Public Policy Office

September 8, 1997

USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE FOR UNANIMOUSLY
ENDORSING RELAXED EXPORT CONTROLS ON ENCRYPTION


As the Congress prepares to address the issue of computer
security and privacy, the California legislature has sent
a clear message that relaxing controls on cryptography is
a critical first step.

On September 5, the California legislature passed a
resolution that calls on the California members in
Congress to support legislation that would make it easier
for US companies to develop and market strong cryptography
products. The resolution was sponsored by Representative
Vasconcellos (D. San Jose) and passed without opposition.

Dr. Barbara Simons, chair of the policy committee for
the Association for Computing (USACM), said that the
California resolution makes clear that industry and
users are united in support of good cryptography.

"We believe that Congress should support the Security
and Freedom Act, sponsored by Representative Goodlatte.
The legislation will help protect security and privacy
on the internet. It will be a serious mistake for the
administration to oppose the development of this
technology," said Dr. Simons.

On August 26, USACM Chair Barbara Simons spoke in support
of the Vasconcellos resolution before a California Senate
committee. Also participating at the Committee hearing were
Dr. Whit Diffie from Sun, Kelly Blough from PGP, Jack Wilson of
ACL Datacom, Chuck Marson representing the California Internet
Industry Alliance (Netscape, Microsoft, AOL, CompuServe and
 Netcom), and a representative of the Software Publishers
Association.  Undersecretary of Commerce Reinsch wrote a
letter opposing the resolution.

The Association for Computing (ACM) is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society with 76,000 members worldwide,
 60,000 of whom reside in the U.S.  USACM, the Association for
Computing's U.S. Public Policy Office, serves as the focal point
for ACM's interaction with U.S. government organizations,
 the computing community and the U.S. public in all matters of
U.S. public policy related to information technology. The USACM
web site is located at http://www.acm.org/usacm/

For more information, please contact USACM Chair Barbara Simons at
408/256-3661 or USACM Associate Director Lauren Gelman at 202/544-4859.

/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Association for Computing,             +   http://www.acm.org/usacm/
Office of U.S. Public Policy           *   +1 202 544 4859 (tel)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 302 B  *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
Washington, DC 20003   USA             +   gelman at acm.org

To subscribe to the ACM Washington Update, send e-mail to: listserv at acm.org
with "subscribe WASHINGTON-UPDATE name" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Sep  9 12:45:07 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 03:45:07 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970909084118.0069266c@popd.ix.netcom.com>




At 11:50 PM 9/8/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I think that what Nobuku described is not a private key system (because
>keys cannot be reused), but rather an approach to generating one time pads.

Arrrgh!  No!  If you read the early references, it's clearly a stream cypher, 
and used as such.  The same bitstream is generated at both ends.
Pretending it's a True Random One-Time Pad would be snake oil, 
but that's your mistake, not Nobuku's or Gao's.
It's true that keys cannot be reused, but that's the same for RC4.

>> Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?
>I think that one more good way of doing it would not hurt.
And one more non-truly-random way of doing it just puts more snake oil on
the shelf.
If there are any bytes that are correlated and not independent, it's Bad Pad.

Tim May wrote:
>> Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
>> (e,g, "chaos") is interesting?
Crypto mathematics is always interesting, if written well,
and if it's the first time you've seen something rather than Yet Another
LCM PRNG.







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Sep  9 13:02:55 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:02:55 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithim
In-Reply-To: <19970909041824.464.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970909083021.0069266c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



There has been work like this done before, though I don't have references
handy.
Check Schneier's "Applied Cryptography".  It hasn't been very successful -
the output of the system looks very random, but you can predict each value
from the last, so known plaintext attack kills it.  And even if the
mathematics are strong, the implementation can be weak.

At 09:18 PM 9/8/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>P(i) Plaintext,C(i) Ciphertext,K(j) Key,Ch(i) Chaos signal,
>L Irrational number
>
>P(),C()-->Manage in byte,Length supposing that n byte.
>K()-->Character line from ASCII CODE,Length supposing that m.
>
>Ch(n)
>begin
>Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
>return Xn+1
>end

How long are Xn and Ch(n)?  Double (64-bit IEEE floating point)?
Is 0f(K)
>begin
>w = Sigmaj strtoul(K(j))j
>delay=int(w/L)
>return(double)(w/L-delay)
>end

How is f(K) used?  Initialize Ch(0)?  
What is strtoul?  String to Unsigned Long?
If size(w) == ul == 32 bits, you only have a 32-bit key, too weak.
If size(w) == 64 bits, maybe you have a chance.
Be sure each piece of K(j) is long enough - adding a bunch of
short numbers together does not produce a long number.
An MD5 hash would be much better.

>1.K input
>2.delay generato
>3.Ch(i) generato
>4.P(i) acquire
>5.C(i)=P(i) XOR Ch(i+delay)
>6.C(i) output

How do you XOR a plaintext byte with (double) Ch(i)?
Do you really just use 1 byte of the Ch(i)?  Then you may have a chance.
If you use all the bits of Ch(i), then known plaintext lets you
take C(i) XOR P(i) == Ch(i), which lets you generate Ch(i+1)....
You may not know the key, but you don't need to if you know the function.









From jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Tue Sep  9 13:35:55 1997
From: jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:35:55 +0800
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709092016.OAA19230@denver.ssds.com>



> 
>    (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
>    By Douglas Hayward, TechWire
> 
>    GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
>    the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
>    create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
>    a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
>    TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.

Jeez.  I'm glad I sold all my Cerf shares at www.roguemarket.com

> 
>    ...Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be well
>    planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a global
>    scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States. alone, there
>    are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
>    transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
>    is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
>    jurisdiction over a particular transaction.

Its amazing that Cerf doesn't even understand the implications of the
network that he designed.  Or maybe he does understand and just
doesn't like the fact that big bro is getting cut out of his future 
utopia.

> 
>    ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
>    people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
>    concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said.

Yes and they've done such a good job protecting the public's safety
and well-being.  I don't remember the constitution spelling out 
anything about "governments rights".  Just the feds and states
limited powers.

If paranoia was on the agenda, someone would be shouting 
New World Order at this point.

;-)


> 
Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes at ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting






From hua at chromatic.com  Tue Sep  9 13:50:00 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:50:00 +0800
Subject: Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...
Message-ID: <199709092030.NAA24682@ohio.chromatic.com>



 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Ernest Hua 
 To: business at sjmercury.com, computing at sjmercury.com, state at sjmercury.com
 Subject: Why no coverage of CA resolution on Encryption?
 Cc: hua at chromatic.com
 
 Why was there no coverage of CA State resolution SJR-29?
 
 I find it using the search facility at:
 
     http://www.sen.ca.gov/www/leginfo/SearchText.html
 
 And the result is at:
 
     http://www.sen.ca.gov/htbin/ca-billpage/SJR/29/gopher_root2:[bill.current.sjr.from0000.sjr0029]
 
 The on-line magazine has a full article by Will Rodger on this:
 
     http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html
 
 Apparently there was some attempt by the Clinton Administration to
 cover up their lobbying effort.  I don't understand why the
 Administration would care about a California state RESOLUTION of all
 things.  Why does the Clinton Administration want to prevent a state
 legislature from speaking its mind?
 
 And what's with this attempt to claim "copyright" on that fax?
 
 Please get some answers on this!  The US Senate/House will be voting
 on important encryption legislation in the coming days.  The people of
 this country deserves to have a open, informed, serious discussion of
 one of the most important privacy issues of the information age.  We
 cannot afford to let a few intelligence and law enforcement agencies
 dictate policy TO us against our will.
 
 Ern






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep  9 13:50:17 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:50:17 +0800
Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:18:47 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
protocol
To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:17:52 -0400
From: glen mccready 
Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org> archive/latest/2196
X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org


Forwarded-by: Nev Dull 
Forwarded-by: Jon Loeliger 

PRIVACY Forum Digest      Monday, 8 September 1997      Volume 06 : Issue 12

            Moderated by Lauren Weinstein (lauren at vortex.com)
              Vortex Technology, Woodland Hills, CA, U.S.A.

                       ===== PRIVACY FORUM =====

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
                 The PRIVACY Forum is supported in part by
                    the ACM (Association for Computing)
                 Committee on Computers and Public Policy,
          "internetMCI" (a service of the Data Services Division
      of MCI Telecommunications Corporation), and Cisco Systems, Inc.
                                 - - -
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:38:55 -0500
From:    MSproul 
Subject: U-Haul/Credit Cards/Social Security Numbers


Today I went to the local U-Haul to rent a small trailer to move a lawn
tractor. In the course of filling out the rental agreement I was asked for
my drivers license then asked for my social security number which I refused
to give. (Texas does not have SSN on the driver's license) The agent then
asked for a credit card, which I was planning to use to charge the rental.
During the subsequent discussion the agent told me that since the Oklahoma
bombing if they don't get a SSN they are required to to get a credit card
number as a second form of identification. They can then get the SSN from
the credit card issuer.

Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul do
with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
when you use your credit card?

M. L. Sproul
Amarillo, TX

                [ Under current law, your SSN is part of what's called
                  "credit header" data, and is (no longer) protected
                  under the FCRA (Fair Credit Reporting Act).

                  This means that for all intents and purposes, your
                  SSN is public information.

                                -- MODERATOR ]

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From lmontgomery at jii.com  Tue Sep  9 14:12:09 1997
From: lmontgomery at jii.com (Montgomery, Lynn)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:12:09 +0800
Subject: FW: Notification: Inbound Mail Failure
Message-ID: 

Please remove dpeterson at jonescyber.com from your mailing list.  He is no
longer at this company.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Montgomery, Lynn 
Sent:	Tuesday, September 09, 1997 2:46 PM
To:	Montgomery, Lynn
Subject:	Notification: Inbound Mail Failure 

The following recipients did not receive the attached mail.  A NDR was
not sent to the originator for the following recipients for one of the
following reasons:

*	The Delivery Status Notification options did not request failure
notification, or requested no notification.
*	The message was of precedence bulk.



NDR reasons are listed with each recipient, along with the notification
requested for that recipient, or the precedence.
 dpeterson at jonescyber.com
		MSEXCH:IMS:JONES:CORPORATE:CEDAR 0 (000C05A6) Unknown
Recipient
		Precedence: bulk
The message that caused this notification was:

 


To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...
From: Ernest Hua 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:30:38 -0600
Cc: hua at chromatic.com

 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Ernest Hua 
 To: business at sjmercury.com, computing at sjmercury.com,
state at sjmercury.com
 Subject: Why no coverage of CA resolution on Encryption?
 Cc: hua at chromatic.com
 
 Why was there no coverage of CA State resolution SJR-29?
 
 I find it using the search facility at:
 
     http://www.sen.ca.gov/www/leginfo/SearchText.html
 
 And the result is at:
 

http://www.sen.ca.gov/htbin/ca-billpage/SJR/29/gopher_root2:[bill.curren
t.sjr.from0000.sjr0029]
 
 The on-line magazine has a full article by Will Rodger on this:
 
     http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html
 
 Apparently there was some attempt by the Clinton Administration to
 cover up their lobbying effort.  I don't understand why the
 Administration would care about a California state RESOLUTION of all
 things.  Why does the Clinton Administration want to prevent a state
 legislature from speaking its mind?
 
 And what's with this attempt to claim "copyright" on that fax?
 
 Please get some answers on this!  The US Senate/House will be voting
 on important encryption legislation in the coming days.  The people of
 this country deserves to have a open, informed, serious discussion of
 one of the most important privacy issues of the information age.  We
 cannot afford to let a few intelligence and law enforcement agencies
 dictate policy TO us against our will.
 
 Ern





From chrisd at loc201.tandem.com  Tue Sep  9 14:32:26 1997
From: chrisd at loc201.tandem.com (Chris DiBona)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:32:26 +0800
Subject: Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...
Message-ID: <01BCBD28.5FE891F0.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>



The reason is because...

The sjmn is crap. Thier valley coverage is terrible, and when it isn't it's 
coming off ap or reuters. They commonly commit factual errors and thier 
business editor is a joke.

My friends and I in the valley don't even call it by it's name,  it's 
become known as the "Fry's ad" (for those not in the valley, frys is a 
large consumer and computer electronics shop. But on steriods. And they 
advertise like crazy all over the sjmn).

Remember SJMN motto: If it's news, it ain't here.

 Chris

-----Original Message-----
From:	Ernest Hua [SMTP:hua at chromatic.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, September 09, 1997 1:31 PM
To:	cypherpunks at toad.com
Cc:	hua at chromatic.com
Subject:	Letter sent to SJ Mercury staff on CA SJR-29 ...

 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Ernest Hua 
 To: business at sjmercury.com, computing at sjmercury.com, state at sjmercury.com
 Subject: Why no coverage of CA resolution on Encryption?
 Cc: hua at chromatic.com

 Why was there no coverage of CA State resolution SJR-29?

 I find it using the search facility at:

     http://www.sen.ca.gov/www/leginfo/SearchText.html

 And the result is at:

 
    http://www.sen.ca.gov/htbin/ca-billpage/SJR/29/gopher_root2:[bill.cu  
rrent.sjr.from0000.sjr0029]

 The on-line magazine has a full article by Will Rodger on this:

     http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/daily/970908b.html

 Apparently there was some attempt by the Clinton Administration to
 cover up their lobbying effort.  I don't understand why the
 Administration would care about a California state RESOLUTION of all
 things.  Why does the Clinton Administration want to prevent a state
 legislature from speaking its mind?

 And what's with this attempt to claim "copyright" on that fax?

 Please get some answers on this!  The US Senate/House will be voting
 on important encryption legislation in the coming days.  The people of
 this country deserves to have a open, informed, serious discussion of
 one of the most important privacy issues of the information age.  We
 cannot afford to let a few intelligence and law enforcement agencies
 dictate policy TO us against our will.

 Ern






From kent at songbird.com  Tue Sep  9 14:39:30 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:39:30 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970909061833.14066.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <19970909141358.22785@bywater.songbird.com>



On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 08:26:25AM -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >> >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
> > >> Ch generate 
> > >> 
> > >> begin
> > >> Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> > >> return Xn+1
> > >> end
> > >
> > >What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
> > >
> > It mean Chaos function.
> 
> How do you calculate this function?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 	- Igor.

Forgive me, but isn't this just the standard technique for calculating
these things? Recall the algorithm for calculating points in the
mandelbrot set -- a point X0 is in the set if the infinite series
described above converges to a value within certain bounds? 
[The infinite series defined by 

	X0 = something
	Xn+1 = a * (Xn) * ( 1.0 - (Xn) )
]

This iterative technique is the fundamental idea behind the creation 
of the mandelbrot set and Julia sets, as I recall.

I don't know anything at all about the "Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm",
but there might actually be more to it than just another onetime pad.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From jseiger at cdt.org  Tue Sep  9 16:56:16 1997
From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:56:16 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <199709092105.OAA02484@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:17 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>This version of SAFE, in fact, is //much worse// for crypto freedom than
>having no bill passed at all.

True.

<...>

>It's time for advocates of crypto-freedom to turn obstructionist and
>oppose all legislation dealing with encryption.

And expect to accomplish what?

To stick our heads in the sand now would just make it easier for the FBI to
roll right over us.  We still need to fight the expected FBI key recovey
amendment when the Intelligence Committee and Commerce Committee vote this
week, and then onto the floor (perhaps next year).  Not to mention the
Senate.

This battle is FAR from over. It would be a serous mistake to give up now.

Best,

Jonah

PS: Interestingly, Reuters is reporting that the Administraon has "serious
problems" with the Dellums/Weldon Amendment:

Clinton official not backing new encryption plan

    WASHINGTON, Sept 9 (Reuter) - The Clinton administration has serious
problems with a new congressional proposal to tighten export limits on
computer encoding technology even though it prefers the approach to one
contained in earlier legislation, a top official said on Tuesday.
   Under Secretary of Commerce William Reinsch told Reuters that an
amendment approved by the House National Security Committee earlier on
Tuesday would give the secretary of defense veto power over encryption
export decisions.
   "Giving the secretary of defense a veto is inconsistent with the
president's executive order and inconsistent with the policies of four
prior administrations," Reinsch said. "The administration thinks all
relevent agencies should have a seat at the table and none should have a
veto."
   Under current policy, enacted by presidential order last year,
encryption export requests are reviewed by the Departments of State,
Defense, Energy, Commerce and Justice, along with the Arms Control and
Disarmament Agency.
   The most powerful encryption products cannot be exported unless they
contain a feature allowing the government to decode any messages covertly.
   The amendment, authored by Rep. Curt Weldon, Republican of Pennsylvania,
 and Rep. Ron Dellums, Democrat of California, would require the president
to set "the maximum level of encryption strength that could be exported
from the United States ... without harm to the national security of the
United States."
   Products at or below the established level could be exported after a
one-time review specified by the secretary of commerce with the concurrence
 of the secretary of defense.
   The proposal virtually gutted the bill to which it was attached. The
original bill, written by Virginia Republican Rep. Bob Goodlatte, would
greatly relax export controls.
   Reinsch said the administration supported the "harm to the national
security" standard. "It gives the administration the authority it needs,"
he said. "We'd much rather have this than (the original)."
   Software companies, civil libertarians and Internet user groups all
favor relaxing the current limits and expressed strong concerns about the
Weldon amendment.
   The amendment appeared to outlaw differential treatment currently
accorded to some encryption products used by financial institutions or
subsidiaries of U.S. companies.
   Reinsch said that section of the amendment "could be more artfully
drafted."
   He also criticized the proposal for not requiring companies to export
products with features allowing for government access to coded messages, an
 approach known as key recovery.
   The current policy "links all of the parts together and uses export
controls as a device to move towards key recovery," he said. "We believe
export controls should include key recovery."
   --Aaron Pressman((202-898-8312))
Tuesday, 9 September 1997 18:02:46
RTRS [nN0972124]



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151


http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/







From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  9 16:57:33 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:57:33 +0800
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer
Message-ID: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>



I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.

I believe I have made changes everywhere the name appears.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Tue Sep  9 16:59:14 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:59:14 +0800
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #982
In-Reply-To: <199709091828.MAA17386@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca>
Message-ID: <199709092216.SAA26105@cti06.citenet.net>



Forwarded from the Canadian Firearms Digest V1 #982

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:31:58 -0600
From: "David A. Tomlinson" 
Subject: Provincial-Federal Court Battle Over Gun Law

The first day of court: An application from Clayton Ruby (the Coalition For
Gun Control Lawyer [CFGC]) to have a paper by one Professor Killias admitted
waas denied.  The CFGC had submitted it, then fiddled around to prevent
cross-examination of Prof. Killias.  An earlier judge had then ruled the
paper inadmissible because there was no opportunity for cross-examination.

The Court ruled 3 to 2 to exclude the paper.

Rod McLennan, acting for Alberta, then put Alberta's case.  It quickly
became evident that Chief Justice of Alberta Catherine Fraser had carefully
studied the federal government's case.  She mousetrapped McLennan into a
swamp by asking him why registration of handguns was legitimate, and
registration of rifles and shotguns was not.

Instead of pointing out that the matter of registration of handguns was not
before the court, that the question of the legitimacy of registration of
handguns was an issue that might appear someday before some other court,
that only the opinion of the judge in such a case could settle the
legitimacy or otherwise of handgun registration, and that he could only give
his personal opinion on the matter, McLennan tried to answer her.

He assumed that handguns are intrinsically evil, that registration of
handguns is legal and proper and constitutional.  Those were dubious
assumptions, and only his personal opinions.  He characterized handguns as
having no legitimate purpose, as being used primarily by criminals, and as
legitimate targets for regulation within the criminal law.

The judge then demanded to know why the arguments for registration of
handguns should not apply to rifles and shotguns.  McLennan was reduced to
arguing that the difference between a rifle/shotgun and a handgun was "one
of degree."  He had been mousetrapped into fighting from a bad position that
he could have -- and should have -- refused to move into.

McLennan then recouped his losses by reading into the record a prepared
statement (NOT something uttered in the heat of debate) made by Alan Rock
during his introduction of Bill C-68.  In that statement, he made it very
clear that C-68 is not aimed at criminals, is expected to have no effect on
crime or criminals, but is designed to make our society more "orderly," and
to control property.  In short, he gave a convincing presentation to tell
Parliament that C-68 is REGULATORY law, dealing with PROPERTY issues, and
equating it with automobile registration laws.

Why is that important?

Law is divided into regulatory law and criminal law.  Broadly speaking,
Criminal law prohibits behavior that is evil and damaging to the rights of
others.  Violation of a criminal law is, almost always, punishable by a term
of imprisonment.  Criminal law and its severe punishments are reserved for
the worst evils found in society.  The consitution allocates the power to
make criminal law to the federal Parliament.

Broadly speaking, regulatory law is law that regulates society, prohibiting
behavior that normally will not -- but MIGHT -- have evil or damaging
effects on the rights of others.  Regulatory law is usually NOT punishable
by a term of imprisonment.  Regulatory law and its gentler punishments are
reserved for REGULATION of our society, with the intent to make life easier
and more orderly, and to deal with property issues (e.g., should you be
allowed to own pesticides, or store pesticides where rain can corrode the
containers).  The Constitution allocates the power to make regulatory law --
in fields that existed before Confederation (1867) -- to the provincial
legislatures.  

(In fields that did not exist prior to 1867 (e.g., air transport) and fields
that straddle provinces (e.g., marine transport), the Constitution allocates
the power to make regulatory law to the federal government.  Firearms
clearly existed before 1867, and their ownership, possession and use is
local.  Firearms are property.)

Rock's equation of firearms registration with motor vehicle registration is
useful.  Motor vehicle registration is only required for motor vehicles that
travel public roads, not for POSSESSION of motor vehicles.  It is PROVINCIAL
REGULATORY law, not FEDERAL CRIMINAL law.  Imprisonment is NOT a punishment
that can be imposed for violation of a motor vehicle registration law.  When
Rock equated the two in his prepared statement, he largely made the
provincial case.  Registration of firearms may be imposed by government in a
law, but it is fundamentally REGULATORY in nature, not CRIMINAL.  

One question that has not been raised yet -- and should be -- is the
question of licensing within the CRIMINAL law.  

Bill C-68 criminalizes simple possession of any firearm.  If a person has
possession of any firearm, that is a crime, and his or her behavior is
criminal behavior -- according to Bill C-68.

In Bill C-68, the federal government then offers to SELL the person a
license to commit that crime.  If that concept is worthy of inclusion in the
criminal law, one wonders how far such a precedent may take us.  Will our
government someday be selling licenses to burgle?  To murder?  

Obviously, those two suggestions are laughable -- today.  We must, however,
recognize how much laws change over a term of years.  It was not that long
ago that we prosecuted Mafia hirelings for their activities in selling
gambling tickets that gave people chances to win money through the "numbers
racket."  

Today, the "numbers racket" has been taken away from the Mafia.  We buy our
tickets legally -- from the federal government -- and the renamed "numbers
racket" is called Lotto 6/49.  Oddly enough, the Mafia used to give us
better odds than the federal government does today.

When one looks at licensing the commission of crimes, the problems become
clear.  If the criminal law is reserved for dealing with crimes and criminal
behavior -- the sort of evils that have major damaging effects on the rights
of others -- then how can such bad behavior be legitimized by selling a
license to commit the crime to any applicant?  Either the behavior is not
that evil -- in fact, is perfectly acceptable in our society -- or the
selling of the license to engage in the behavior is wrong.

True, the C-68 system contains ways to deny the license; but it is
unequivocal that the license is available, that the behavior is NOT
intrinsically evil, and that the government expects huge numbers of
Canadians to buy the license.  The "evil" behavior is acceptable -- yet it
is a crime.  There is something wrong here.

There is something very disturbing about the selling of licenses to commit
crimes.  One cannot help but feel that either the behavior is not truly
criminal behavior, or, alternatively, the law is actually REGULATORY law
that should NOT be embedded in  the criminal law.

And what happens when the applicant cannot afford to buy the license?  Some
of the licenses offered in Bill C-68 will cost over $1000.  Is it fair or
reasonable that a person should be criminalized by poverty -- or
alternatively, denied the right to participate in a business, sport or
recreational activity by government avarice?

The more one looks at the regulatory nature of Bill C-68 -- as was so ably
described by then Minister of Justice Rock -- the more one is disturbed to
find it embedded within the criminal law, laced about with penalties of
multiple years of imprisonment, and defective in its principles.

For example, Bill C-68 makes it a criminal offence to be in possession of
any firearm.  Then it offers to sell a license commit that crime, to engage
in that criminal activity.  A Canadian buys the license, and engages in the
behavior.

Five years later, the license expires.  If the person does not notice that
his license has expired, the expiry criminalizes the individual without his
knowledge.  The penalty is multiple years of imprisonment.

There have already been laws on the books that were struck down for that
defect.  The principles of our laws make it impossible to have a law that
imposes imprisonment for an offence where the accused did nothing wrong, but
merely did not notice that an expiring document was about to criminalize him
or her.

One hopes that those aspects of Bill C-68 will be brought out in future days
of the Alberta Court of Appeal hearing.

Dave Tomllinson, NFA
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Tue Sep  9 17:03:59 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:03:59 +0800
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709092231.SAA26341@cti06.citenet.net>



> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

>     (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
>     By Douglas Hayward, TechWire
>  
>     Cerf co-developed the
>     TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.

Net-Papa bullshit!

>     ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
>     people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
>     concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said.

Absolute Bullshit!  Bit tax comes down to taxing thinking!  This guy 
might have been a (past tense) a smart programmer but he'd better 
shut up about the rest...

jfa

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  9 17:04:21 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:04:21 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709092317.SAA06435@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: amp at pobox.com
> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:26:21 -0500
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),
>  was Democracy is the true enemy...
> 
> > I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
> > there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
> > after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
> > one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
> > users, any more than software could do the same.
> 
> No intrinsic flaws in democracy? 
> 
> Surely you jest. 

Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Tue Sep  9 17:05:17 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:05:17 +0800
Subject: A Short History of Liberty
Message-ID: <199709092311.TAA31029@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Below is a copy of "A Short History of Liberty" by Dean Russell first
published in the Freeman in Jan 1955. Copied from "Essays in Liberty"
Volume III, published by the FEE (The Foundation for Economic Education,
Inc,) 1958.


"From Biblical times onward, the history of liberty and progress among
various peoples seems to have followed a remarkably similar pattern. there
are exceptions, of course-and the time element varies widely-but the
pattern may be generally described by ten key ideas in sequence:"

1. BONDAGE. At some point in their histories, all peoples seem to have
existed in some form of bondage or slavery-frequently even to their own
domestic rulers by their own votes or acquiescence. But when thoughtful
persons finally become aware that they are no longer free men, they want
to know why. When they ask themselves that question, they automatically
turn to contemplation and soul searching. Out of this grows ...

2. FAITH. If people in bondage have no faith-either in a personal Creator
or impersonal ideal-they will remain slaves and eventually die out or be
absorbed by another culture. But an intelligent faith will almost always
develop into ...

3. UNDERSTANDING. A person's faith needs to be buttressed by an
understanding of why it is evil to force any peaceful person to conform to
the will and ideas of another person. Otherwise, he is apt to remain a
faithful slave or attempt to become a slave-owner. But the combination of
faith and understanding results in the necessary ...

4. COURAGE. You may depend upon it, courageous men with faith and
understanding will neither remain in bondage nor keep others in bondage.
Even against great odds, this combination leads to ...

5. LIBERTY. Liberty is a relationship among persons wherein no person
molests any other peaceful person in his ideas, possessions, or actions.
Liberty may also be viewed as the responsibility one assumes for himself
and recognizes in all others, for there can be no liberty where there is
no responsibility. Liberty has never existed completely among any people
at any time; but where it has existed to a high degree, the resulting
freedom to work, trade, choose, win, lose, and bargain has always meant
...

6. ABUNDANCE. But if an abundance of material things is the primary aim of
a person, his life is devoid of any real meaning. For if the goal is
abundance, its achievement logically results in ...

7. COMPLACENCY. Complacency and self-satisfaction (the "full barns" of the
Biblical lesson) inevitably lead to ...

8. APATHY. With apathy comes a dullness and loss of interest-a "let George
do it" philosophy. And there will always be many political "Georges"
around to accept this invitation to seize both the reins and the whip.
This always degenerates into ...

9. DEPENDENCY. For a time, it is possible for dependents to be unaware
that they are dependents. As they continue to shed the personal
responsibilities which *are* freedom, they also continue to delude
themselves that they are still free people-"We never had it so good." Or
they may be deluded into believing that they are still free so long they
themselves are able to participate in the mechanical processes of
selecting their rulers-"We can still vote, can't we?" But dependents are
at the mercy of the persons or groups or parties upon whom they depend for
their housing, or security in old age, or subsidies, or education, or
medical care, or any of the other "aides" from political authority which
cause persons to depend on others instead of themselves. Sooner or later,
this dependency becomes know by its true nature ...

10. BONDAGE. Fortunately, the record shows that people can regain their
faith, understanding, and courage. They can again become persons and
citizens who are responsible for their own welfare, rather than units and
subjects identified by numbers for the purposes of regimentation and
subsidization. The record shows that people can, by their own intelligent
actions, regain their liberty any time they want it.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep  9 17:07:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:07:12 +0800
Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709092347.BAA02678@basement.replay.com>



At 03:52 PM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:18:47 -0400
>X-Authentication-Warning: qnx.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO
>protocol
>To: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
>Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:17:52 -0400
>From: glen mccready 
>Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>X-Mailing-List: <0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org>
archive/latest/2196
>X-Loop: 0xdeadbeef at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Precedence: list
>Resent-Sender: 0xdeadbeef-request at substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>
>
>Forwarded-by: Nev Dull 
>Forwarded-by: Jon Loeliger 
>
[stuff cut]
>Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul do
>with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
>when you use your credit card?
>
>M. L. Sproul
>Amarillo, TX
>
>                [ Under current law, your SSN is part of what's called
>                  "credit header" data, and is (no longer) protected
>                  under the FCRA (Fair Credit Reporting Act).
>
>                  This means that for all intents and purposes, your
>                  SSN is public information.
>
>                                -- MODERATOR ]
>

It has been some time since I have seen an actual credit report, but as I
remeber, TRW and CBI both report the persons SS# when you do a credit
check. CBI has a search by SS# that will give you credit history and
address from a SS#.. I did quite a few credit checks in my younger, more
criminalistic days.. 






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Sep  9 17:25:21 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:25:21 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970909084118.0069266c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709092354.SAA15577@manifold.algebra.com>



stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> 
> At 11:50 PM 9/8/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >I think that what Nobuku described is not a private key system (because
> >keys cannot be reused), but rather an approach to generating one time pads.
> 
> Arrrgh!  No!  If you read the early references, it's clearly a stream cypher, 
> and used as such.  The same bitstream is generated at both ends.
> Pretending it's a True Random One-Time Pad would be snake oil, 
> but that's your mistake, not Nobuku's or Gao's.
> It's true that keys cannot be reused, but that's the same for RC4.

Well, I did not say that it was true random one time pad. :)

> >> Do you think means of generating one time pads have been lacking?
> >I think that one more good way of doing it would not hurt.
> And one more non-truly-random way of doing it just puts more snake oil on
> the shelf.
> If there are any bytes that are correlated and not independent, it's Bad Pad.
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> >> Why do you think a private key system, even one based on trendy buzzwords
> >> (e,g, "chaos") is interesting?
> Crypto mathematics is always interesting, if written well,
> and if it's the first time you've seen something rather than Yet Another
> LCM PRNG.
> 
> 



	- Igor.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Sep  9 17:50:38 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:50:38 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: 




John Young said:

> Flame War, by Jonathan Quittner and Michelle Slatalla,
> William Morrow, New York, 1997. 291 pp. $24.00
> ISBN 0-688-14366-0

Sure that isn't Alexis Slatella? ;)

FedPlunger



        







From declan at pathfinder.com  Tue Sep  9 18:07:54 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:07:54 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
Supremes likely to strike it down.

-Declan



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> Though it's understandable why so many are expressing anger, gloom,
> anxiety, and rage over the Freeh-Feinstein mandatory key escrow draft bill,
> a better attitude is that of joy.
> 
> Any way it goes, this is good news for us.
> 
> If the Safe Internet Act (or whatever it is finally called)  is passed, the
> Supreme Court will likely strike it down (on First and/or Fourth Amendment
> grounds). This will marginalize the crypto folks, and perhaps cause the
> Court to reaffirm the Patel decision and related issues.
> 
> If the Safe Internet Act is never actually proposed, or dies in committee,
> or fails, then at least Big Brother's true intentions will have been shown.
> 
> Actually, this has already happened. All of those who ever expressed doubt
> that Big Brother planned to ban crypto must now see we were right all along.
> 
> The remaining alternate course, that the Act is passed, and then that the
> Supreme Court eventually affirms its constitutionality, is also good for
> us. For it will then mean war has been declared, and various extreme sorts
> of actions will then accelerate.
> 
> And that could be a lot of fun.
> 
> But I expect, in all seriousness, that the Freeh-Feinstein view will fade.
> Clinton is about to enter his lame duck phase, and sentiment seems to be
> against mandatory key escrow. As one ironic example, the California state
> legislature has voted unanimously, both houses, to send a message to
> Washington urging easing of crypto exports.
> 
> Feinswine, being a Californian, might want to heed this. But, being a
> Pacific Heights socialist, er, socialite, she's too clueless to have any
> inkling what the issues are.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Tue Sep  9 18:18:18 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:18:18 +0800
Subject: With friends like these...
Message-ID: <199709100110.VAA18706@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>



...who needs enemas? (Administered by plunger, no doubt.)

   Internet Tax Plan Is Needed, Net Creator Says
   (09/09/97; 12:00 p.m. EDT)
   By [33]Douglas Hayward, [34]TechWire

   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
   the "Father of the Net." The only way to avoid global chaos is to
   create an international agreement on how to do it, added Vint Cerf at
   a meeting of the Internet Society here. Cerf co-developed the
   [35]TCP/IP[LINK] protocol on which all Web and Net transaction depend.
   
   Although proposals for taxing the Internet were rejected by both the
   Clinton administration and the European Commission earlier this year,
   there will be no way to avoid it, he said. "We need to be prepared for
   the day when there will be taxation as a consequence of Internet
   transactions," said Cerf, who is senior vice president for Internet
   architecture and engineering at MCI, in Washington.
   
   Taxation of the Internet, also called "bit taxes," must be
   well-planned, Cerf said. "And it must also be thought through on a
   global scale -- not parochially," he said. In the United States alone,
   there are 30,000 taxing authorities that might be interested in taxing
   transactions on the Internet, said Cerf, adding that right now, there
   is no way to determine which of those authorities should have
   jurisdiction over a particular transaction.
   
   "Imagine going through 30,000 tests for each transaction -- no
   transaction would ever go through," Cerf said. "If the Internet
   becomes a major tool for electronic commerce, every major taxing
   jurisdiction in the world will be interested in using that as a
   revenue stream."
   
   Although the rate of growth of visible Internet hosts appears to be
   slowing significantly, the growth of intranets is still on the rise,
   Cerf said. "Traffic is growing at such as rate that on [MCI's]
   backbone, we will have to consume as much fiber capacity for the
   Internet as for the telephone network by the third quarter of 2110,"
   he said.
   
   As Internet traffic grows, Cerf said, legislators will move to
   regulate it. "You cannot have a fully and totally unregulated
   environment," he said.
   
   "If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
   these roads, in order to protect people." [36]TW
   
                            [37]Search Archives
                            ____________________
                           [All CMP Publications]
                                   ______
                                      
   Related Stories:
   
   [38]Europe Rejects "Bit Tax"
   
   [39]Congress To Take Byte Out Of Taxes
   
   [40]Clinton: Hands Off The Internet
   
References

  35. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=TCP/IP
  36. http://www.techweb.com/
  37. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  38. http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?WIR1997040812
  39. http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?WIR1997071107
  40. http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?INV1997070102






From declan at pathfinder.com  Tue Sep  9 18:21:32 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:21:32 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970908230135.006a94a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 




On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
> and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"

I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!

-Declan








From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Tue Sep  9 18:28:13 1997
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:28:13 +0800
Subject: Good Gore, Bad Freeh
Message-ID: 



At least they've got the good cop, bad cop routine down.
Check out 

>WASHINGTON (AP) -- Vice President Al Gore Tuesday reaffirmed the Clinton
>Administration's policy against restricting the sale in the United
>States of high-tech devices that maintain the privacy of computer
>messages.
>
[snip]

>But White House aides, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the vice
>president's brief comment on the administration's policy was intended to
>respond to Freeh and show that for now the administration is not changing
>its position on the sale of encryption devices in the United States.
>
"For now".

Myself, I prefer California SJR 29:

(which accomplishes nothing except feeling good, I know)

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997







From rab at stallion.oz.au  Tue Sep  9 19:01:54 1997
From: rab at stallion.oz.au (rab at stallion.oz.au)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:01:54 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
Message-ID: <07514A6D4C1FD11180190000010380311154@mallory.stallion.oz.au>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> > However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
> > and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"
> 
> I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
> politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
> Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!
Look on the bright side: You will probably never know what hit you :-)






From jseiger at cdt.org  Tue Sep  9 19:02:10 1997
From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:02:10 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 5:31 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>>    "Giving the secretary of defense a veto is inconsistent with the
>> president's executive order and inconsistent with the policies of four
>> prior administrations," Reinsch said. "The administration thinks all
>> relevent agencies should have a seat at the table and none should have a
>> veto."
>
>In other words, all the relevant agencies together should have a veto.
>Hardly a surprise. Reinsch is merely quibbling over details. (In fact, the
>amendment wouldn't even give Defense a solo veto.)

I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
in the larger, ongoing war.

None the less, this is much bigger than a quibble over details, IMHO.
There are important policy implications of this language.  And politically,
it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
(one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.

Best,

Jonah



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151


http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/







From azur at netcom.com  Tue Sep  9 19:09:29 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:09:29 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: 



>Forwarded message:
>
>> From: amp at pobox.com
>> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:26:21 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),
>>  was Democracy is the true enemy...
>>
>> > I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
>> > there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
>> > after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
>> > one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
>> > users, any more than software could do the same.
>>
>> No intrinsic flaws in democracy?
>>
>> Surely you jest.
>
>Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...

I think my Parts II and III detailed a number of shortcomings of democracy,
at least when the franchise goes to 'employees' as opposed to 'customers'
of government.

--Steve







From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Sep  9 19:14:04 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:14:04 +0800
Subject: Mondex Broken
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970910015508.0086f57c@pop.pipeline.com>



We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
1996 memo describing the break:

   TNO's Ernst Bovenlander gave some details of these 
   attacks (though he didn't mention Mondex as the target). 
   He showed an electron micrograph of a fuzed link in a 
   smartcard; while intact, this link activated a test mode in 
   which the card contents were simply dumped to the 
   serial port. The TNO attack was to bridge the link with 
   two microprobes. At the last RSA conference, Tom 
   Rowley of National Semiconductor reported a similar 
   attack on an unnamed chip using an ion beam to 
   rewrite the link .

Included is a letter from the Bank of New Zealand to 
Electronic Frontier Canada attempting to suppress 
publication of the memo.

   http://jya.com/mondex-hack.htm







From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  9 19:39:18 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:18 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709100241.VAA07451@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:02:37 -0700
> From: Steve Schear 
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)

> >> No intrinsic flaws in democracy?
> >>
> >> Surely you jest.
> >
> >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> 
> I think my Parts II and III detailed a number of shortcomings of democracy,
> at least when the franchise goes to 'employees' as opposed to 'customers'
> of government.

I have read 'The Sovereign Individual' as well so am somewhat familiar with
the thesis they propose. I will ask you the same question I would ask of
Davidson & Rees-Mogg...

Assume that we accept this thesis that the best way to run a government is
to structure it such that customers set policies and procedures. What
inherent protections does that give me regarding abuse by the system? How
do you propose to keep the majority from deciding that it is uneconomical to
protect my rights as some minority group? A careful study of business
practices versus race or socio-economic group (as expressed by dress) will
quickly show that persons of the wrong 'type' receive less service than
those of more acceptable groups. The sort of service the customer receives
is after all in the hands of the salesperson, not the customer.

Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...

If there are not some inherent or explicit checks in place then such a
econo-government would reduce to mob-rule just as happens with democracy
without explicit bills of rights. Neither you or Davidson/Rees-Mogg address
this issue sufficiently. Furthermore, neither you or the authors address
exactly why such a government would abandon the use of force totaly. Exactly
why would this form of government reduce say burglary, thereby eliminating
the need for police. Is this form of government going to do away with bomb
weilding weenies, I doubt it, so we clearly have a need for federal or
national level law enforcement fully armed. Since it is clear that all 200+
world governments would not abandon their current forms of government there
is a clear and present danger from outside our borders. How do we protect
ourselves from this threat? You can't pay them not to attack you, otherwise
you are doing exacly what the system was supposed to avoid doing - paying
tributes.

You want a government with minimal intervention, the issue is not whether
it is a democracy or a econo-government or even a communism. What
measures that is the rights of the people recognized by the government
and how the government respects those rights.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

 






From brianbr at together.net  Tue Sep  9 19:43:16 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:43:16 +0800
Subject: EMP & Cars (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709100234.WAA13189@mx01.together.net>



On 9/8/97 7:00 AM, Peter Trei (trei at process.com)  passed this wisdom:

>Ham radio operators have been dealing with this issue for years. 
>There's a lot of (mostly anectodotal) stories of mobile operators
>keying up their rigs and having either their own or neighbouring
>cars misfiring or dieing. Shielded ignition cables seem to fix 
>things (though they are actually bought to prevent ignition noise 
>from getting into the radio, not the other way around).

 My 1988 Bronco II used to drop out of Cruise Control if I used 25 watts 
or more on 440 MHz FM. On the 50 watt setting at 440 MHz the engine would 
start running rough, though it never died. de ka2bqe



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
    For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
    -- of Steve Jobs (1997)
  "He gazed up at the enormous face. But it was all right. 
   Everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had
   won the victory against himself. "
  "He loved Big Brother."                 -- George Orwell, "1984"







From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  9 19:50:06 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:50:06 +0800
Subject: US Govt., Hackers, & security - Cable TV
Message-ID: <199709100252.VAA07559@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

There is some show on TDC about the Internet and how it can be used as a
threat to national security. It is 9:41pm Ctl. so check your schedule.

Looks like good advertising...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 19:55:25 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:55:25 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
>SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
>Supremes likely to strike it down.
>

"Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?

There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the legislation
itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.

Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
declare this law unconstitutional."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  9 19:59:54 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:59:54 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
all.

-Declan

On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
> >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
> >Supremes likely to strike it down.
> >
> 
> "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
> 
> There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
> specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the legislation
> itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
> saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
> 
> Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
> U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
> declare this law unconstitutional."
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From announce at lists.zdnet.com  Tue Sep  9 20:04:49 1997
From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:04:49 +0800
Subject: FREE Trial offer for Computer Magazine Archives
Message-ID: 



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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 20:04:52 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:04:52 +0800
Subject: Stanford on Sept. 19th (Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970908230135.006a94a4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



At 6:14 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
>> and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"
>
>I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
>politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
>Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!

I can't promise anything, but I plan to be advancing the cause of crypto
anarchy on the Stanford campus on Friday, September 19th. After that I may
be off the list for a while, as I'm heading north.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  9 20:19:18 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:19:18 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
> completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
> just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
> in the larger, ongoing war.

The war in Congress is essentially over. There is no realistic hope of
good crypto legislation passing. I'd be interested to hear any
hypothetical that you'd suggest to the contrary. Keep in mind when
concocting it that you'd have to get past the Senate -- where pro-crypto
legislation has been dead for months -- and a presidential veto.

Can you honestly say that any legislation that would survive such a
fearsome test would be better than the situation we have now? (That is, no
domestic controls, an export control regime hanging from a shoestring, and
moderately successful court challenges.)

> None the less, this is much bigger than a quibble over details, IMHO.
> There are important policy implications of this language.  And politically,
> it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
> considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
> (one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.

The "important policy implication" of this language may just be Freeh
serving as a convenient launching platform for trial balloons. Reinsch can
swat them down as he sees fit if they get hit by too severe a barrage,
then reintroduce them later after the clamor dies down. (Politically, BTW,
it is much more interesting what Gore said today than Reinsch.) Like I
said, bad cop and worse cop. Reinsch was critical of nuances -- ones that
you perhaps missed -- not the general plan to wire in Big Brother.

Keep in mind this is not just law enforcement talking. This is policy that
comes from the top. Remember Clinton's executive order last fall. Or
before that, his predecessor. Classified documents reveal George Bush in
December 1991 approved a policy to ban strong crypto and allow only
snooperware (crypto with a backdoor). Then in early 1992 the White House
OMB moved to suppress related documents critical of mandatory
wiretappability and privacy. Again, this comes from the highest levels of
the administration. Tell me again how you'll get past that veto. 

-Declan






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 20:28:10 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:28:10 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <07514A6D4C1FD11180190000010380311154@mallory.stallion.oz.au>
Message-ID: 



At 6:48 PM -0700 9/9/97, rab at stallion.oz.au wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> > However, we need to get off this "Nuke Washington!" kick,
>> > and on to something more realistic like "Wiretap DiFi!"
>>
>> I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
>> politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
>> Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!
>Look on the bright side: You will probably never know what hit you :-)

Yes, the very, very, intensely bright side.

In actuality, the damage radius of course goes approximately as the cube
root of the megatonnage. The multimegaton warheads of some decades back are
no more, replaced by 1 MT and even 200 KT warheads as the "workhorses" of
MIRV and cruise missile delivery systems. And of course nuclear
demolitions, designed to take out dams, close mountain passes, etc., are of
even less megatonnage.

In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, people survived the blast at a radius of several
hundred meters, if they were not looking at the blast and were not in the
open, or in residences ignited. (The Japanese houses were more easily
ignited than modern American or European houses and apartments, for various
reasons.

These bombs were roughly 20 KT. A suitcase bomb might well be comparable,
or even smaller. And even the "workhorses" I mentioned, at 200 KT, would
have roughly the same survivability at 2 or 3 times the radius, i.e. at
1000 meters or so.

Declan would be very unlikely to be in the lethal zone, unless he happened
to be near one of the obvious targets.

(Which in my opinion would be the White House, the Congress, the Pentagon,
or the densepack burrowcrat warrens. Using the above calculations, it is
quite reasonable that big chunks of these buildings would survive a
suitcase nuke placed a few hundred meters away. The Pentagon might lose a
bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  9 20:34:21 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:34:21 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
together can veto crypto exports, and:

"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
this section shall not be subject to judicial review."

-Declan



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
> constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
> all.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
> > >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
> > >Supremes likely to strike it down.
> > >
> > 
> > "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
> > 
> > There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
> > specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the legislation
> > itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
> > saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
> > 
> > Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
> > U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
> > declare this law unconstitutional."
> > 
> > --Tim May
> > 
> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> > tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Tue Sep  9 20:41:24 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:41:24 +0800
Subject: [LONG} Funding Cypherpunks Projects
Message-ID: <199709100321.XAA10545@www.video-collage.com>



At 01:54 PM 9/7/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>At 3:35 pm -0400 on 9/3/97, Tim May wrote:
...
>Certainly a bass-ackward way to do it. Unfortunately, that's the way Disney
>did it, or L.B. Mayer did it,  or Gates, or Edison, or Parekh did it. They
>had a picture in their head of the way the world worked, or should work,
>they did things, as cheaply as possible, which should work in that picture,
>and they were right. They still invested something, is my point, whether it
>was their money or their time, or their inspiration.
...
Gates?  The closest he had to a grand vision is being able to predict the
financial gain behind programming computers.  That in my opinion was
marketing savvy, not a grand vision, for lack of a readily available substitute.
You know about traf-o-data.  This was a far cry from what he now has.
He rode the wave by changing with the times, hedging his bets, being in the
right place at the right time, etc.
That, however is about all I know as the book he wrote was a little too
basic alone the lines of my interests for my tastes and I had to put it down
for more enjoyable activities like staring at the wall.
When I can next stomache reading more kindergarten level computer analogies,
I'll finish reading his book.
...

>> Asking Jim Clarke or Bill Gates to opine on his strategies for success is
>> not quite as pointless, but is not real useful either. Ask also Manny
>> Fernandez about Gavilan Computer. Or ask the financiers of Ovation,
>> Processor Technology, Mad Computers, Symbolics, Thinking Machines, Trilogy,
>> or a hundred other examples of companies that burned through a billion
>> dollars of hard-earned investor money.
...
Interesting note.  I heard that the guy that started Thinking Machines is
now an imagineer at one of the evil empires.  Who would have thought that
one of the guys responsible for parallel computing development would now be
building theme park rides.

BTW.  I love this little game of artistic response.  It actually reads like
a conversation and makes it a whole lot easier to take the origional post
out of context.  Remind me to use line numbers when I respond to one of your
posts with a long message.  Or at least number the paragraphs.  Not that it
would matter.






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Tue Sep  9 20:44:41 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:44:41 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709100329.XAA11461@www.video-collage.com>



At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
...
>-----
>http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/notices/terrog.txt
>-----
>
>Petitioning to Make Special Patent Applications Relating to
>Inventions For Countering Terrorism
>
>New patent applications are normally taken up for
>examination in the order of their effective United States
>filing date.  However, the Commissioner may provide that a
>patent application will be advanced out of turn for
>examination if a petition to make the patent application
>special under 37 CFR 1.102(c) or (d) is granted.
>
>On July 31, 1996, Vice President Gore stated that "[i]t is
>imperative that those seeking to prevent terrorist
>activities have all of the tools necessary to accomplish
>their task."  In view of the importance of developing
>technologies for countering terrorism and the desirability
>of prompt disclosure of advances made in these fields, the
>Patent and Trademark Office is establishing a new category
>for petitions to accord "special" status to patent
>applications relating to counter-terrorism inventions.
>International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
>"activities that
>(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life
>that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United
>States or of any State, or that would be a criminal
>violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United
>States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to
>intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to
>influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
>coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
>assassination or kidnaping."
...
Back up just a minute.
Aren't inventions protected if the patent is pending?  If not, why do such
well known companies who undoubtly have savvy legal council produce products
stamped "patent pending"?
Is this just a way of forcing those who take this special treatment to bow
to additional government restrictions?  An action which they would have to
do as if they didn't, a competitor might get the inventors idea patented
before the inventor?
Sounds more like a manner to place certain inventions that are crucial to
"national security" under tighter regulations.
How long before they expand the definition?  Because, if they impose
additional contractual conditions upon the advanced patent, this could mean
that crypto could be regulated constitutionally in the future by regulating
who the inventor could share it with.






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 20:45:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:45:00 +0800
Subject: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970910015508.0086f57c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 6:55 PM -0700 9/9/97, John Young wrote:
>We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
>Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
>1996 memo describing the break:
....
>Included is a letter from the Bank of New Zealand to
>Electronic Frontier Canada attempting to suppress
>publication of the memo.
>
>   http://jya.com/mondex-hack.htm

You mean the way  had lawyers send threatening letters to 
warning him not to further publicize the claimed security flaws in
, the security product sold by ?

I myself received a phone call from , warning me to not to even
make reference to the rumors that  had flaws in it.

Some of you know what I mean.

There's even a chance this vague note here will cause  to again
contact me, warning me that even such  are not good enough for
them.

And I'm not at all surprised that those with financial interests in
products are attempting to supress technical or competitive analysis
reports. It's become the way of the world to hire lawyers and barristers to
intimidate whomever they can.

Fortunately, this is what remailers are so useful for. (Though the lawyers
and cops are going after the remailers, as several recent cases have shown.)

And the execrable copyright new world order would make such reverse
engineering illegal in many cases. More reason to nuke it with remailers.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From brianbr at together.net  Tue Sep  9 20:47:03 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:47:03 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), was Democracy is the true enemy...
Message-ID: <199709100251.WAA13881@mx01.together.net>



>Democracy is as tyrannical as any other system if rights aren't respected.
>In those cases where limited government might have to make a decision
>concerning all, and there is time to debate the issue, democracy (either
>representative or direct) is the most just method.

  I see what we have at the moment is a tyranny over the majority by the 
tiny minority of the population that happen to hold the reigns of power 
... look at what Freeh et al. is trying to do ... shoving it right down 
our throats ... as we all used to say after Nam ... BOHICA!


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
      For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
   "...if you drink much from a bottle marked 'poison,' it is almost
     certain to disagree with you, sooner or later"  -- Lewis Carroll







From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 20:47:57 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:47:57 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 7:52 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
>> completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
>> just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
>> in the larger, ongoing war.
>
>The war in Congress is essentially over. There is no realistic hope of
>good crypto legislation passing. I'd be interested to hear any
>hypothetical that you'd suggest to the contrary. Keep in mind when
>concocting it that you'd have to get past the Senate -- where pro-crypto
>legislation has been dead for months -- and a presidential veto.
>
>Can you honestly say that any legislation that would survive such a
>fearsome test would be better than the situation we have now? (That is, no
>domestic controls, an export control regime hanging from a shoestring, and
>moderately successful court challenges.)

I was never enthusiastic about SAFE anyway. The criminalization language
was bad news, and the approval language added along the way effectively
gutted the bill. Face it, would it have allowed free export of arbitrarily
strong, unbreakable crypto? If anyone thinks this, they're living in a
fantasy world.

And as Declan said, the Senate and the White House were very cold on SAFE.

So why bother? Why give the NSA and FBI an opening for regulating
_domestic_ crypto use just to let Netscape and Microsoft and a few other
companies export to "furriners." (I support free exports, obviously, but
not if it means restrictions in any way on existing liberties.)

The "software as free speech, which means it can be subjected to prior
restraint, government censorship, or export control" argument is proceeding
nicely, thanks to Bernstein, Gilmore, Junger, Cohn, and others, and is a
much more solid basis for ensuring civil liberties.

Just drop all work on SAFE and Pro-CODE sorts of things and focus efforts
on monkeywrenching GAK and widely distributing bootleg crypto around the
world, as fast as possible.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 20:51:27 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:51:27 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:12 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
>together can veto crypto exports, and:
>
>"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>this section shall not be subject to judicial review."

Then this is _not_ the sense in which you seemed to be implying that the
Supreme Court would be precluded from declaring the law unconstitutional.

--Tim May

>-Declan
>
>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
>> constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
>> all.
>>
>> -Declan
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> > At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> > >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
>> > >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much
>>for the
>> > >Supremes likely to strike it down.
>> > >
>> >
>> > "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
>> >
>> > There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
>> > specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the
>>legislation
>> > itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
>> > saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
>> >
>> > Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
>> > U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
>> > declare this law unconstitutional."
>> >
>> > --Tim May
>> >
>> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
>>laws.
>> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>> > tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
>>superhighway."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  9 20:59:05 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:59:05 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
suggested widespread civil disobedience. 

Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

-Declan


On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Just drop all work on SAFE and Pro-CODE sorts of things and focus efforts
> on monkeywrenching GAK and widely distributing bootleg crypto around the
> world, as fast as possible.






From declan at pathfinder.com  Tue Sep  9 21:01:32 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:01:32 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no b
In-Reply-To: <199709100157.VAA16126@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: 



Michael, you once again fail to note the important political issues here. 
Sometimes civil liberties, freedom, and constitutional rights must be
ignored in favor of pragmatism. It is important at all costs to remain a
player in the game. 

Instead of opposing bad crypto legislation, we should instead work inside
the process, to gain a seat at the table. That is why it is highly
significant that both Commerce and FBI want to rid us of our freedom but
would do it in subtly different ways. 

-Declan



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Michael Sims wrote:

> Jonah Seiger wrote:
> 
> > None the less, this is much bigger than a quibble over details,
> > IMHO. There are important policy implications of this language.  And
> > politically, it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be
> > critical at all, considering that the Committee voted to
> > substantially undercut the bill (one of Reinsch's top priorities). 
> > Perhaps you missed this nuance.
> 
> Well, I know that *I* feel much better now that I know about this
> nuance.  Knowing that the rulers of this country have significant
> differences about who should control the universal key management
> and encryption infrastructure once it's in place (who gets the Power) 
> really eases my concerns.  Thank you.
> 
> 
> -- Michael Sims
> 






From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  9 21:02:52 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:02:52 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no  b
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970909203741.00c4a6c0@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



Lizard, I'm not sure if I should take your post as a compliment to my
writing abilities or an insult to my politics, but you should be aware
that my post about giving up freedom to play political games was entirely
facetious. Perhaps I should be more explicit in the future, but sometimes
it ruins the spoof. 

-Declan


On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Lizard wrote:

> At 11:00 PM 9/9/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Michael, you once again fail to note the important political issues here. 
> >Sometimes civil liberties, freedom, and constitutional rights must be
> >ignored in favor of pragmatism. It is important at all costs to remain a
> >player in the game. 
> >
> No, it isn't. You end up being more concerned with being in the game than
> with achieving your goals. Sometimes, you have to kick the board over.
> 
> I think it is more important to make the laws unenforceable (and make such
> workarounds useful to the average netizen), than it is to try to keep the
> government from passing laws. The work of people like Jim Ray and Phillip
> Baker is crucial here.
> 
> The government is unlikely to pass laws to limit its own authority, on any
> issue -- even those who might not want to use a particular power would
> still want to keep it around 'just in case'. 
> 
> We cannot count on government to protect our freedoms. Therefore, we must
> make it irrelevant to the exercise of those freedoms.
> 
> >Instead of opposing bad crypto legislation, we should instead work inside
> >the process, to gain a seat at the table. That is why it is highly
> >significant that both Commerce and FBI want to rid us of our freedom but
> >would do it in subtly different ways. 
> 
> Not really, know. It's unlikely that a "Let's you and him fight" strategy
> would prove effective, since this isn't just an interdepartmental turf
> squabble. They will strip our freedoms first, and argue over who gets the
> thumbscrews second.
> 
> 






From lizard at dnai.com  Tue Sep  9 21:04:57 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:04:57 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no b
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970909203741.00c4a6c0@dnai.com>



At 11:00 PM 9/9/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Michael, you once again fail to note the important political issues here. 
>Sometimes civil liberties, freedom, and constitutional rights must be
>ignored in favor of pragmatism. It is important at all costs to remain a
>player in the game. 
>
No, it isn't. You end up being more concerned with being in the game than
with achieving your goals. Sometimes, you have to kick the board over.

I think it is more important to make the laws unenforceable (and make such
workarounds useful to the average netizen), than it is to try to keep the
government from passing laws. The work of people like Jim Ray and Phillip
Baker is crucial here.

The government is unlikely to pass laws to limit its own authority, on any
issue -- even those who might not want to use a particular power would
still want to keep it around 'just in case'. 

We cannot count on government to protect our freedoms. Therefore, we must
make it irrelevant to the exercise of those freedoms.

>Instead of opposing bad crypto legislation, we should instead work inside
>the process, to gain a seat at the table. That is why it is highly
>significant that both Commerce and FBI want to rid us of our freedom but
>would do it in subtly different ways. 

Not really, know. It's unlikely that a "Let's you and him fight" strategy
would prove effective, since this isn't just an interdepartmental turf
squabble. They will strip our freedoms first, and argue over who gets the
thumbscrews second.






From brianbr at together.net  Tue Sep  9 21:07:25 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:07:25 +0800
Subject: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709100359.XAA16278@mx01.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

 We have batted this around and around ... I am curious though what
the more legal-oriented among us feel the current wording portends for
us ... say it gets passed ... just what will be the legal status of
the use of non-GAKked crypto?

   There is little question that steganography will be raised to a
high art form under these proposals. That not withstanding, I would
just like to get a feel for exactly where it leaves the current PGP et
al. community?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBYbJsdZgC62U/gIEQKB+ACgplZ/gmiKJEQgM5syzV2u1ls1LpsAn3Th
7veoktJjakAcKVzXTi8m0L+9
=ws+o
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
        For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
   savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
   Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
    -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)







From shamrock at netcom.com  Tue Sep  9 21:13:46 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:13:46 +0800
Subject: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970909092004.00721208@mail.airmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970909201615.006d3c04@netcom10.netcom.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From lizard at dnai.com  Tue Sep  9 21:16:16 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:16:16 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no  b
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970909205722.00c9b644@dnai.com>



At 08:47 PM 9/9/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Lizard, I'm not sure if I should take your post as a compliment to my
>writing abilities or an insult to my politics, but you should be aware
>that my post about giving up freedom to play political games was entirely
>facetious. Perhaps I should be more explicit in the future, but sometimes
>it ruins the spoof. 
>
You know, I once pointed out the same spoof when you tried it a few months
back, and this time, I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Hold on, time
for the excuse-o-matic

roll roll roll

a)It's late.
b)My cat was on the keyboard.
c)Er...I was kidding too. Heh heh...uh...yeah.
d)The sad thing is, there's people who *would* say that, and mean it.






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 21:24:56 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:24:56 +0800
Subject: Chelsea Clinton's PGP
In-Reply-To: <199709091743.TAA24757@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 10:43 AM -0700 9/9/97, Anonymous wrote:
>   Stanford Newspaper Promises to Help Chelsea Clinton Keep Low Profile
>   AP
>   08-SEP-97
>
>   STANFORD, Calif. (AP) Don't look for news about Chelsea Clinton in
>   Stanford University's school paper: The editor is promising to treat
>   the first freshman like any other student.
>
>   Chelsea, accompanied by her parents, is expected on campus Sept. 19,
>   when 1,600 first-year students move into their dormitories and begin
>   several days of orientation.


Like I said, I'll be on campus that day advancing the cause of crypto
anarchy. A perfect opportunity to examine the implications of these ideas,
ironically.

Should be exciting.  I can hardly wait. (I have been offered access to a
house a few blocks from campus, so I may not face the incredible parking
and traffic problems others are expected to face.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net  Tue Sep  9 21:29:04 1997
From: j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net (James S. Tyre)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:29:04 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <341619BC.6A3F@worldnet.att.net>



Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note). 
If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:

1.  Do not expect that it will be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court, as
was the case with CDA.  Instead, expect that it will start with the
District Court, take years to get to and through the Court of Appeals,
and then, if the U.S. Supreme Court decides to hear the matter at all
(it would have no obligation to do so), much more time there.

2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
and then is turned down.

None of us know, of course, if the amendment will become law.  But if it
does, plan on it being a good while before the judicial process results
in anything determinative, one way or the other.

-Jim

Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 8:12 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> >together can veto crypto exports, and:
> >
> >"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> >Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> >this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> 
> Then this is _not_ the sense in which you seemed to be implying that the
> Supreme Court would be precluded from declaring the law unconstitutional.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> >-Declan
> >
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> >> Let me type in that section. But I'm talking about the issue of the
> >> constitutionality of the legislation, of course. National security and
> >> all.
> >>
> >> -Declan
> >>
> >> On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >>
> >> > At 5:57 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >> > >I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
> >> > >SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much
> >>for the
> >> > >Supremes likely to strike it down.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > "Prohibits" in what sense, and in what language?
> >> >
> >> > There's obviously a difference between prohibiting judicial review of
> >> > specific wiretaps and the issue of the constitutionality of the
> >>legislation
> >> > itself! I can only surmise you must mean that language has been added
> >> > saying magistrates, etc. are not part of the wiretap process.
> >> >
> >> > Clearly Congress, by the separation of powers arrangement we have in the
> >> > U.S., cannot say "And, oh by the way, the Supreme Court is not allowed to
> >> > declare this law unconstitutional."
> >> >
> >> > --Tim May
> >> >
> >> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> >>laws.
> >> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> >> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> >> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> >> > tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> >> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> >> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> >> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> >>superhighway."
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Tue Sep  9 21:31:44 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:31:44 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
Message-ID: <199709100424.AAA16792@www.video-collage.com>



At 10:28 PM 9/8/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>
>>
>>I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>>
>>
>Ch generate 
>
>begin
>Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
>return Xn+1
>end
>
>Do you understand Japanese ?
>If you understand Japanese,
>I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.
>
I don't understand Japanese, barely got through discrete structures, and
hate calculus.  But I'd like to see the source for the aXn() function.






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Tue Sep  9 21:32:04 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:32:04 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
Message-ID: <199709100424.AAA16809@www.video-collage.com>



At 11:01 PM 9/8/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
...
>On the other hand, 0.5 kt of ANFO in the basement wasn't quite enough
>to take the towers out.
...
The version that I read was that the truck was merely parked next to a
pillar hoping that that would do it.
The guys weren't physics majors.  With enough people here who speak in pure
math, there might be a few who could calculate the best spot for such a
device based on blueprints of the building.

My opinion, one place the charges primarily along one side.  The north one.
That way, when the columns give, the building falls on more of Manhattin.

BOOM!  Timberrr..

This is speculation, of course.  Purely for academic consideration and all that.






From shamrock at netcom.com  Tue Sep  9 21:32:16 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:32:16 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970909211930.006d0008@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 08:12 PM 9/9/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
>together can veto crypto exports, and:
>
>"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>this section shall not be subject to judicial review."

Decan,
This paragraph does not, and in fact could not, preclude judicial review of
the constitutionality of the statue itself.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Tue Sep  9 21:53:44 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:53:44 +0800
Subject: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
Message-ID: <199709100443.AAA18685@www.video-collage.com>



At 09:20 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Frank wrote:
> "Building a nuclear capability would cost $1 billion or more, require
1,300 engineers, and take years. Developing biological weapons could cost
less than $100,000, require five biologists, and take just a few weeks,
using equipment that is readily available almost anywhere in the world."
Science News 5/18/96
...
>Disregarding the creative chemistry experiments available under your sink
and around the house, but considering the way the government and media can
characterize any assortment of household items or literature a question
arises - If you have meat in your refrigerator do you in fact have the basis
for a biological weapon of mass destruction? The fact that many foods can be
readily converted (by improper handling or outright negligence) to poisons
can beg the question of whether having food in your posession does not
constitute a health hazard to your children. AND we all know that the well
being of one child is what it is all about. Don't we? 
...
Don't disregard them too quickly.
I can't remember the name of the fungus, or the toxin extracted from it,
(and my science and technology encyclopedias are 2 hours away), but there is
a common fungus found in soil.  This is the stuff that can survive high temp
treatment.
IF memory serves, it's botulism, that is no guarantee.
Anyway, this toxin was listed in the text that I have access to as being one
of the strongest known to man.
And it is literally under your feet.

Of course I don't know how to distill it, but I could probably make some
guesses.






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep  9 21:56:26 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:56:26 +0800
Subject: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
In-Reply-To: <199709100321.XAA10545@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/9/97, Sean Roach wrote:


> Gates?  The closest he had to a grand vision is being able to predict the
> financial gain behind programming computers.

Yes. And I'd call that a "grand vision", even in Tim's use of the phrase.
He understood that computer software, and not the computer, especially in a
world of microprocessors, was the most important part of the market. It
might even be safe to say that BillG is responsible for at least the last
10 years or so of Intel's existance...

If you "change with the times", but don't know where you're going, you'll
go nowhere at all. Knowing where you're going when you change, (and
actually being right :-)) is called "vision". For instance, Bill figured
out that he couldn't sell operating systems to people, he had to sell them
to computer manufacturers. That's what "vision" gets ya.

And I didn't say that technical "vision" was the only kind there is,
especially when it comes to making money. :-).

My understanding is that for all his apopletic "code reviews", Billzebub
couldn't code his way out of a paper bag.

His last effort was on the second version of Altair BASIC, and they had to
do a ground-up rewrite after he was through with it. After *his* version
shipped, of course. :-).

Nonetheless, people who didn't share his "vision", like IBM, and DEC, and
now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.

Ah, the wonders of pickleball, and dorm room poker, and a grandmother who
wouldn't let you have dessert unless you won the sack race.


If you can find it, go read "Hard Drive" (no, not *that* one..). An
unauthorized biography by a couple Seattle Post-Intelligencer reporters.
Written before, of course, Win 3.1 actually took over the world, otherwise
they would have been fired. :-). Heck, if they weren't then, they probably
are now, anyway.

Lot of dirty laundry there. Like the hint that Gates was actually thrown
out of Harvard (well, "asked to leave", anyway, and all is certainly
forgiven, now, after a $decamillion donation to the Harvard endowment...)
because he used their computer resources, including their Zylog(?) chip
emulator and PDP-11 BASIC source code to essentially port DEC BASIC to the
Altair for resale. (Now what was that, Bill, about people duping *your*
paper BASIC tape and *you* losing *your* "investment"?) And how his first
software "deal" was sneaking off with someone else's PDP-11(?) operating
system tapes and reselling them for a cool $10k at the tender age of 16.
Hmmm. Sounds familiar, yes, CPM/QDOS fans?

See, boys and girls? All it takes to be the supreme monopolist (okay, not
quite a monopolist, but close enough for government work) and the World's
Last Industrial Tycoon is a taste for larceny. Okay. And a 1600 SAT score...

But it's still very hard to see why they call it "intellectual" property.

We might as well legalize software "piracy" and be done with it. Recursive
auctions, anyone?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

"But, he didn't understand. The point was to *win*."
   -- Richard Nixon, on his first congressional opponent,
      who Nixon falsely accused of communism
      (well, he *was* a pinko, anyway...)


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Tue Sep  9 21:56:49 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:56:49 +0800
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Suitcase for sale
Message-ID: <199709100451.AAA19641@www.video-collage.com>



At 06:32 PM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.
>
>Scheduled to check in; check the weight.
>
>For details contact: toto at sk.sympatico.ca
>
SWAPSHOP:
Interested in one luggage carrier capable of holding 80 pound suitcase to
underside of wing of unmarked private plane that can be jettosoned remotely.
Looking for good offer as 1,000,000 already spent on suitcase.






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  9 22:06:51 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:06:51 +0800
Subject: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'...
Message-ID: <199709100511.AAA08834@einstein.ssz.com>



In the authors own words....

The Sovereign Individual
Davidson & Rees-Mogg
ISBN 0-684-81007-7

re: pp. 207 - 208

Chapter 8
The End of Egalitarian Economics
The revolution in Earnings Capacity in a World Without Jobs

   Those who have employed compulsion and local advantage to redistribute
income are destined to lose much of their power. This will alter the command
of resources. Privately generated wealth that heretofore has been
commandeered by the nation-state will be retained instead by those who earn
it. Increasing amounts of wealth will find their way into the hands of the
ablest entrepeneurs and venture capitalist worldwide. Globalization, along
with other characteristics of the information economy, will tend to increase
the income earned by the most talented individuals in each field. Because
the marginal value generated by superlative performance will be so huge, the
distribution of earnings capacity throughout the entire global economy will
take much the shape it does now in the performance professions like
athletics and opera.


I don't know about you but I don't think the implicit assumption in the
title about our current economic system qualifying as egalitarian is in any
way realistic.

Furthermore, it is seriously expected that the majority of people will
survive by doing the equivalent of porno flicks to pay the bills while a
handfull of people wield all the money, and hence the power in this system.
Man, this sounds like zaibatsu heaven.

How exactly is it better to take all those resources away from a government
I have some control over irrespective of my socio-economic standing (further
protecting my minority status) and give them to a system which tells me a
priori that I have little hope of getting any realistic income increase
irrespective of my effort level.

While it will be true we will be living in a world without jobs it won't be
the socio-fantasy of Star Trek but rather the simple fact that there are no
jobs to be had. And to top it off, their going to tell me up front that I
have no hope of support if something happens and I can't pay the fee for
government intervention. We are further shocked to realize that the tried
and true philanthrope won't be around because those sorts of resource uses
are inefficient and will be quickly eradicated because of it.

A call to the gas company,

"I'm sorry Mr. Bilbo, we can't turn your service back on because of your
not paying bills. If you wouldn't buy quite so much soup to feed those bums
you might have the money to pay the bills."

Yeah, take everything I got, take everything the person who might be
motivated to help me has for trying to help me, and then tell me I don't have
anything that I can do about it...woo woo, sounds like fun to me.

It may come as a shock to you, but money is not the goal. The goal is your
grandkids and the world they will live in.

We pay taxes to pay the bills of the indigent not to let the mother sit
around on her ass but rather to protect the innocent kids who don't have a
say in it. Those kids deserve a chance, whether you as an individual believe
in them or not, THAT is the cost of humanity. We are just stewards of this
reality, the real owners are the generations to be born. Their the ones we
have to explain ourselves to. Please review Santyana.

While I strongly suggest reading the book because it has a lot of good
individual ideas, the work taken as a whole is seriously flawed.

Also, please remember;

You are
What you do
When it counts

     -The Masao-


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From declan at pathfinder.com  Tue Sep  9 22:07:32 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:07:32 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> Declan would be very unlikely to be in the lethal zone, unless he happened
> to be near one of the obvious targets.
> 
> (Which in my opinion would be the White House, the Congress, the Pentagon,
> or the densepack burrowcrat warrens. Using the above calculations, it is
> quite reasonable that big chunks of these buildings would survive a
> suitcase nuke placed a few hundred meters away. The Pentagon might lose a
> bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)

That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
territory on K Street.

I do live, however, about a mile and a half from anything especially
targetworthy.

-Declan











From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 22:22:47 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:22:47 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:00 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> Declan would be very unlikely to be in the lethal zone, unless he happened
>> to be near one of the obvious targets.
>>
>> (Which in my opinion would be the White House, the Congress, the Pentagon,
>> or the densepack burrowcrat warrens. Using the above calculations, it is
>> quite reasonable that big chunks of these buildings would survive a
>> suitcase nuke placed a few hundred meters away. The Pentagon might lose a
>> bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)
>
>That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
>so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
>and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
>territory on K Street.
>
>I do live, however, about a mile and a half from anything especially
>targetworthy.

Then you may  be OK, as the best time to trigger such events is probably at
rush hour in the morning, where I assumed, being a reporter, you're still
recovering from the shmooze parties the night before.

One thing that seems possible is a coordinated, multi-city detonation
(assuming the freedom fighters have several armable devices, which seems
possible). Several small nukes being detonated in A, B, C, and D (where
these are the capitals or centers of influence of one's political
opponents) would synergistically magnify the terror effect. Detonating just
one of them would probably result in severe travel restrictions, martial
law, etc., and so make detonation of the later ones problematic.

More of us will be executed, tortured, or otherwise injured in the
aftermath of martial law than would be injured in a suitcase-nuking of the
snake's head. (By "us" I mean reasonable people like ourselves, not the
unemployable welfare addicts and unemployable government lifers who cluster
around the target zones.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From sameer at c2.net  Tue Sep  9 22:33:21 1997
From: sameer at c2.net (sameer)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:33:21 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709100526.WAA07506@gabber.c2.net>



	That appears to me to make specific export approvals not
subject to review but the law can still be subject to review.

> Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> together can veto crypto exports, and:
> 
> "Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer at c2.net






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 22:41:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:41:37 +0800
Subject: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
In-Reply-To: <199709100321.XAA10545@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:48 PM -0700 9/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 11:21 pm -0400 on 9/9/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>
>
>> Gates?  The closest he had to a grand vision is being able to predict the
>> financial gain behind programming computers.
>
>Yes. And I'd call that a "grand vision", even in Tim's use of the phrase.
>He understood that computer software, and not the computer, especially in a
>world of microprocessors, was the most important part of the market. It
>might even be safe to say that BillG is responsible for at least the last
>10 years or so of Intel's existance...

Nonsense. A lot of those machines are running Linux, or other flavors of
Unix. And lots of other microprocessors comparable in every way to Intel's
processors are running the Mac OS, or some flavor of Unix, or whatever.

Had MS never existed, the world would still be consuming vast amounts of
microprocessors. Possibly more, many of us think.

( I use a Mac, as may be known to many of you. The issue of the OS is
separable from the issue of the processor...the Mac OS is no more tied to
the Motorola 680X0 than the MS OS is tied to the Intel x86. Indeed, the Mac
OS runs on the IBM/Motorola PowerPC, and the Windows NT OS runs on the DEC
Alpha (and used to run on the PPC).


>My understanding is that for all his apopletic "code reviews", Billzebub
>couldn't code his way out of a paper bag.
>

Also nonsense.

>Nonetheless, people who didn't share his "vision", like IBM, and DEC, and
>now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.

Utter nonsense. I lack the time to write about the early history of MS,
Seattle Computers, and Gary Kildall, but to make this claim above indicates
Bob is sacrificing objectivity for some sort of cheap shot in favor of MS.

I used to know Kildall, when he was hanging around Intel in the mid-70s,
and up until two weeks before his death. The situation was a lot more
nuanced than this "vision of Bill" argument suggests.

>Lot of dirty laundry there. Like the hint that Gates was actually thrown
>out of Harvard (well, "asked to leave", anyway, and all is certainly
>forgiven, now, after a $decamillion donation to the Harvard endowment...)
>because he used their computer resources, including their Zylog(?) chip
>emulator and PDP-11 BASIC source code to essentially port DEC BASIC to the
>Altair for resale. (Now what was that, Bill, about people duping *your*

Are you making this stuff up as you go along? You spout about the "vision
of Bill," but then you fantasize about how he and Paul got Altair Basic
out. As it happens, I also know the founders of Zilog, and the Z-80 was not
available at the time the Altair and IMSAI machines were gaining
popularity. (A friend of mine designed the IMSAI 8080, the first
semi-decent S-100 machine. I'm tempted to e-mail this fantasy to him and
give him his laugh for the evening.)

The larger issues of Bill Gates' contributions, or whatever, to the world
are much more nuanced than these fantasies would have it.

The issue of chip production is largely orthogonal to the issue of which OS
is being used. Like I said, if one believes the critics of Windows, Intel
would have sold _more_ chips had machines been less brain-damaged. Or maybe
it takes a 200 MHz Pentium Pro to make up for the inefficient OS.

But I won't buy the canonization of Bill Gates as the Engine of the
Revolution. If, as one wag put it, Princess Di was "Joan of Arc with a good
haircut," then does this make Bill Gates "Joan of Arc with a bad haircut"?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep  9 22:47:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:47:53 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I left out a "not" here:

At 8:42 PM -0700 9/9/97, Tim May wrote:


>The "software as free speech, which means it can be subjected to prior

"cannot be subjected to"


>restraint, government censorship, or export control" argument is proceeding
>nicely, thanks to Bernstein, Gilmore, Junger, Cohn, and others, and is a
>much more solid basis for ensuring civil liberties.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  9 22:57:33 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:57:33 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <199709100526.WAA07506@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <199709100551.BAA08632@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I am not even sure that it is Constutional for Congress to prevent the
Judicial review of the actions of the Executive branch.


In <199709100526.WAA07506 at gabber.c2.net>, on 09/09/97 
   at 10:26 PM, sameer  said:

>subject to review but the law can still be subject to review.

>> Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
>> together can veto crypto exports, and:
>> 
>> "Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>> Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>> this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
>> 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  9 23:01:12 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:01:12 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709100528.BAA07931@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I dare!! I double dare!!

In , on 09/09/97 
   at 08:51 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
>electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
>suggested widespread civil disobedience. 

>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

>-Declan


>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> Just drop all work on SAFE and Pro-CODE sorts of things and focus efforts
>> on monkeywrenching GAK and widely distributing bootleg crypto around the
>> world, as fast as possible.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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LPEpRQbN2WjKn6JMPeU/jUqHYKOtnZwPuxuokJM7tj4kxbkaD7w1NgHbPQi4BhXi
3y4qTK64gwc=
=svhs
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From brock at well.com  Tue Sep  9 23:19:56 1997
From: brock at well.com (Brock N. Meeks)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:19:56 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

[Jonah Seiger writes]:
> > There are important policy implications of this language.  And politically,
> > it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
> > considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
> > (one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.

[Declan takes over]:
> 
> The "important policy implication" of this language may just be Freeh
> serving as a convenient launching platform for trial balloons. Reinsch can
> swat them down as he sees fit if they get hit by too severe a barrage,
> then reintroduce them later after the clamor dies down. (Politically, BTW,
> it is much more interesting what Gore said today than Reinsch.) Like I
> said, bad cop and worse cop. Reinsch was critical of nuances -- ones that
> you perhaps missed -- not the general plan to wire in Big Brother.
> 

Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.  
Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak" 
which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through 
the use of phrasing and even tone.

Gore said the White House couldn't support Freeh's plan... what he meant 
was "yet" because, in fact, thereis no formal plan to "accept."

But the minute that the House or Senate pass such a proposal out of 
committee is the minute WhH policy changes.  And I'll be anyone one 
that... any takers?

Gore is playing word games, practing for the run for the money in 2000.






From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep  9 23:20:03 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:20:03 +0800
Subject: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'...
In-Reply-To: <199709100511.AAA08834@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199709100613.CAA09154@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709100511.AAA08834 at einstein.ssz.com>, on 09/10/97 
   at 12:11 AM, Jim Choate  said:

>We pay taxes to pay the bills of the indigent not to let the mother sit
>around on her ass but rather to protect the innocent kids who don't have
>a say in it. Those kids deserve a chance, whether you as an individual
>believe in them or not, THAT is the cost of humanity. We are just
>stewards of this reality, the real owners are the generations to be born.
>Their the ones we have to explain ourselves to. Please review
>Santyana.

No they don't. At least not at the expense of taking food off of my table
and away from my childern to support the childern of those who are not
willing to do so themselves.

You sense of "morality" does not give you the right to steal from me to
support it. In a free society you are more then welcome to spend as much
you want on the children of others. You *DO NOT* have the right to spend
my money on them. That is a decision that I and I alone have the right to
make. I can spend $1M a year on them or I can spend nothing. It is my
money that I earned and you have no right to tell me how I should spend it
no matter how good it makes you feel to do so.


I do agree that we will have to explain ourselves to our children and
grandchildren. At least I can tell them that I fought against the
inslavement of the people by the socialist what will you be able to say?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From sue_u at dev.null  Tue Sep  9 23:52:41 1997
From: sue_u at dev.null (? the Attorney)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:52:41 +0800
Subject: Mondex Broken
Message-ID: <3416340E.5AB7@dev.null>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 6:55 PM -0700 9/9/97, John Young wrote:
> >We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
> >Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
> >1996 memo describing the break:
> ....
> >Included is a letter from the Bank of New Zealand to
> >Electronic Frontier Canada attempting to suppress
> >publication of the memo.

> You mean the way  had lawyers send threatening letters to 
> warning him not to further publicize the claimed security flaws in
> , the security product sold by ?
 
> I myself received a phone call from , warning me to not to even
> make reference to the rumors that  had flaws in it.

> There's even a chance this vague note here will cause  to again
> contact me, warning me that even such  are not good enough for
> them.

Seize & Dee cyst.

? the Attorney







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep  9 23:56:30 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:56:30 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709100643.IAA15354@basement.replay.com>



> >New patent applications are normally taken up for
> >examination in the order of their effective United States
> >filing date.  However, the Commissioner may provide that a
> >patent application will be advanced out of turn for
> >examination if a petition to make the patent application
> >special under 37 CFR 1.102(c) or (d) is granted.
> >
> >International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
> >"activities that
> >(B) appear to be intended ...
> >(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
> >coercion; 

I was just granted a copyright on all of Tim May's 'Nuke DC' posts.
Every time he quotes them, he owes me a nickle.

> >or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
> >assassination or kidnaping."
> ...

Jim Bell, too.

God, I *love* this government.

? the lunatic
p.s. - CypherPunks posts are now considered munitions under the
secret laws that nobody knows about. Remember, ignorance of the
secret laws is no excuse.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep  9 23:56:40 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:56:40 +0800
Subject: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
Message-ID: <199709100640.IAA15126@basement.replay.com>



Lucky Green wrote: 
>      At 09:20 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Frank wrote:
>      >>>>
>      Based on recent statements by "officials" of the former
>      Soviet Union a number of "suitcase" nukes are missing.
>      Possible sale price - $1,000,000. 
> <<<<
> $1,000,000 per suitcase nuke seems way to cheap. Heck, at that price,
> some individuals on this list might be in the market. What's the yield
> of these suitcase nukes?
> 
> BTW, any idea what the law has to say about private ownership of nukes
> by US citizens? Assume for a moment that the actual device is kept
> outside the US.

They are legal to own, as long as you don't carry them concealed on
your physical person.
It is legal to keep them in a locked suitcase.

Only two left. 10% discount for cypherpunks.
Can drop-ship to destination of your choice for no extra charge.
(I'll need the cash up front if you live in the DC area.)

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 00:05:21 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:05:21 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
Message-ID: <199709100643.IAA15344@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 8:12 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> >together can veto crypto exports, and:
> >
> >"Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> >Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> >this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> 
> Then this is _not_ the sense in which you seemed to be implying that the
> Supreme Court would be precluded from declaring the law unconstitutional.

Read it and think about it...

This kind of bureaucratic dildo is a subtle way of affording the Lying 
Nazi Fucks (TM) in power a way to _interpret_ the law unconstitutionally
without having it subject to "judicial review."
Ipso facto, you are mucho fuckedo by an unconstitutional interpretation
of a constitutional law.

Add to the above, the fact that unelected semi-secret committees of 
administration appointees will be exchanging bum-buddy favors with
the people doing the interpreting, and you will find a set of 
'established' procedures--from the White House down to the lowly
clerk that stamps "Denied" on your application to speak your native
tongue during overseas phone calls--which will _support_ the fascist's
case if you ever _do_ manage to get them into court.
(Much like the post of our Cpunk avon lady who sent the CFA post down
showing how the Alberta lawyer got suckered into comparing his stance
against gun registration to an 'established' unconstitutional law
against handgun registration.)

The deciding factor in a case such as this, from my experience, is
when the government whines about the terrible burden they would be
placed under if they were forced to go out and by an "Accepted"
rubber-stamp, at which point the judge decides that this would
take away from the available funds for nuclear warheads, and then
National Security would be compromised.
Ruling: Citizens, assume the position.

PositionMonger







From mailhost at aol.com  Wed Sep 10 15:17:50 1997
From: mailhost at aol.com (mailhost at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make Money With Your PC
Message-ID: <2267890991JJX09264@6001workathome.com>




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From adam at homeport.org  Wed Sep 10 00:47:51 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:47:51 +0800
Subject: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970910015508.0086f57c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709100701.DAA10459@homeport.org>



John Young wrote:
| We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
| Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
| 1996 memo describing the break:
| 
|    TNO's Ernst Bovenlander gave some details of these 
|    attacks (though he didn't mention Mondex as the target). 

	This seems pretty cool (the point in the memo about 'security
being suitable for purpose' with purpose left undefined but implied by
Mondex to be 'low value' is very interesting).  However, its not clear
to me who TNO is?

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From gnu at toad.com  Wed Sep 10 15:53:06 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Government filed 9th Circuit Bernstein brief asking for full stay
Message-ID: <199709102238.PAA10894@toad.com>


Today the Government filed a 22-page brief arguing to the 9th Circuit
Court that it would be so injurious to the national security for
Prof. Bernstein to be able to publish his Snuffle 5.0 software on the
Internet, that a complete stay of Judge Patel's injunction is needed.

They also propose that the entire appeal be done on an expedited basis.

The brief is accompanied by two seven-page personal declarations,
one from William P. Crowell, Deputy Director of NSA, and one from
William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary for Export Administration.

These will be up as page images on the Web shortly, under
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/Legal/

	John Gilmore





From sethf at mit.edu  Wed Sep 10 01:01:50 1997
From: sethf at mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:01:50 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <9709100755.AA05099@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>



>>At 2:17 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>It's time for advocates of crypto-freedom to turn obstructionist and
>>oppose all legislation dealing with encryption.

> From: Jonah Seiger 
> And expect to accomplish what?

	Freedom from embarrassment? I don't consider the Digital
Telephony debacle to have been lived down yet. I certainly don't have
a lot of faith that the people who brought us that are going to do any
better nowadays.
	I sense another dirty little deal is in the works, where we're
told they didn't "support" it, but "it could have been worse".

> To stick our heads in the sand now would just make it easier for the FBI to
> roll right over us.  We still need to fight the expected FBI key recovery

	OK. How about telling us how that's going to be done. And at
what point will you start calling for megaphones and marches
(metaphorically). If the answer is "never", well, I think that settles
just how much of a factor you'll be.
	
================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf at mit.edu






From hvdl at sequent.com  Wed Sep 10 01:37:09 1997
From: hvdl at sequent.com (Unicorn)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:37:09 +0800
Subject: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970909092004.00721208@mail.airmail.net>
Message-ID: <19970910102352.64548@sequent.com>



--- On Sep 09, Lucky Green apparently wrote -----------------------------------

> $1,000,000 per suitcase nuke seems way to cheap. Heck, at that price, some 
> individuals on this list might be in the market. What's the yield of these 
> suitcase nukes? 
> 
> BTW, any idea what the law has to say about private ownership of nukes by 
> US citizens? Assume for a moment that the actual device is kept outside 
> the US. 
> 
> Just asking rhetorical questions, 

Mmm, they seem real questions to me. I can't find the answer in there on
both the yield  nor private ownership... ;^) So what  is so "rhetorical"
about them?

> --Lucky Green  

--- and thus sprach: Lucky Green  ------------------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========






From anon at anon.efga.org  Wed Sep 10 02:22:44 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:22:44 +0800
Subject: Did someone say 'dare'?
Message-ID: <564c62fa2eafab966800d4ee5319cfd0@anon.efga.org>



Declan McCullagh wrote: 
> I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
> electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
> suggested widespread civil disobedience.
 
> Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

  I took one step back, while Toto and a Well user to be named later
just stood there, so it appears to me that they've volunteered.

  I am hereby daring Lying Fuck Freeh, Nazi Ratbastard Clinton, Child
Murderer Reno, and Lying Nazi Cunt FineSwine to prosecute Toto and
a Well user to be named later.
  Munitions-grade crypto has been sent to prohibited countries through
two accounts in the last twenty-four hours, one in Canada, one in the
U.S. 

(Hint: sk.sympatico.ca & well.com)

(Double Hint: the one sent through the Sympatico account was sent
 _*before*_ the account was disabled last night while inept system
 spooks set up new monitoring processes on it.)

(Double Extra Hint: the one sent through the Well account was not sent
 through the account of the person who warned Well security admins about
 a system intruder shortly *_after_* their wonderful little "we caught
 the system intruder and installed a newer, more secure system" intro
 appeared in their new, more secure login process.)

(Triple Extra Hint: this message is being cc:'ed to Defcon McCull'em,
 as well as sent unencrypted through a single remailer, so that 
 tracing its apparent source should not present a major problem.)

(Cheap Shot: The Sympatico account is not now working because the admins
 fixed the problem. It is now working because _I_ fixed the problem.)

(Double Cheap Shot: If Well security admins check the warning about 
 their brand-spanking new intruder, which they wrote such a _rude_
 reply to, saying that the writer was an idiot, they might notice that
 the header of the message contains an anagram for their system root
 password at the time.)

(Triple Cheap Shot: Check the Return To: header being used with this
 originating message.)

  Please note that I am providing these hints in order that there may
be a snowball's chance in hell that those who choose to do further 
investigation into my wild-eyed claims may be able to proceed without
further fucking up the originating systems so badly that I have to 
spend my own valuable time fixing them.

  In order to facilitate the federal prosecution of Toto, I have used
his writing style, grammer and syntax, complete with too fucking many
commas, his normal margins and carriage returns, as well as his too
predictable formatting of the quoted portion of the message being
replied to. (Also using clues from his previous 'Anonymous' posts.)
  In order to hinder the federal prosecution of the Well user to be
named later, I chose to illegally export the munitions-grade crypto
through the account of someone who has an employer with deep pockets,
and whose prosecution would undoubtedly result in a great amount of
unwanted publicity. (Unwanted, because the government would fail to
convict.)
  In order to piss on the perfectly polished jackboots itching to
break down a few doors, I have placed all details of the illegal
export of the munitions-grade encryption from Canada and the U.S.
in a file on both computers, encrypted with _my_ public key. In 
order for the file to be read, once deciphered, it must be diff'ed
with the file on Toto's personal computer containing the text of
the federalist papers.

  In order to demonstrate the seriousness of this post, if the
government schills (<-- note the spelling) who follow the list
are too fucking lazy to check into my claims, or too fucking
incomptent to confirm them, then I would be more than happy to,
in two weeks time, send two futher illegal communications via
the same routes, to the CypherPunks (<--sp?) list, upon request 
by a verifiable government law enforcement agent or agency in
a post to the list.
  Failure of the federal government to take successful action in
investigation and prosecution of the illegal activities herein
admitted, will be taken as a sign that the Lying Nazi Ratfuckers
who comprise the Government and LEA's are weak, spineless pieces
of shit who are capable only of using threats and violence to herd
meek sheeple into unconstitutional imprisonment of their freedoms,
rights, and liberty. i.e. Gutless fucks.

~~~~~
!Toto
~~~~~
"It's !forgery until *I* say it's forgery!"
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn







From amp at pobox.com  Wed Sep 10 02:28:46 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:28:46 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709092317.SAA06435@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 




>
>------------------------
>  From: Jim Choate 
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> From: amp at pobox.com
>> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:26:21 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II),
>>  was Democracy is the true enemy...
>> 
>> > I don't believe there are intrinsic flaws in democracy, so much as
>> > there are intrinsic flaws in *human*nature* that are coming to light
>> > after decades. government is a reflection of our human natures.
>> > one cannot really expect a government to correct the flaws of its
>> > users, any more than software could do the same.
>> 
>> No intrinsic flaws in democracy? 
>> 
>> Surely you jest. 
>
>Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...

1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%

2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.

3. A pure democracy is true mob rule - a mob has no concience, or bounds to 
it's tyranny. Look into the history of ancient Athens.

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/09/97
Time: 22:49:26
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: 




On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

> Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.  
> Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak" 
> which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through 
> the use of phrasing and even tone.


Let's look at what Gore did say:

>    WASHINGTON, Sept 9 (Reuter) - With the FBI floating a proposal to
>regulate the domestic use of computer encoding technology, Vice President
>Al Gore asserted Tuesday the administration had not changed its policy 
that
> allows free use within the United States.
>   "The administration's decision has not changed on encryption, but this
>is an area where we need to find ways to work together to balance the
>legitimate needs of law enforcement with the needs of the marketplace,"
>Gore told a meeting of the Software Publishers Association in Washington.

I agree it's word games, but that's hardly a surprise. Especially since
Gore's denial seems a bit too narrow. What about the administration's
policy on free //distribution// of encryption? That's what Louis Freeh
wants to ban, as an initial move. 

-Declan






From anon at anon.efga.org  Wed Sep 10 02:41:25 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:41:25 +0800
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: 










From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Wed Sep 10 02:51:01 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:51:01 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709100942.FAA02726@upaya.multiverse.com>



Declan McCullagh writes:

: I won't comment on Tim's second possibility, but the amendment added to
: SAFE today by one committee //prohibits// judicial review. So much for the
: Supremes likely to strike it down.

That prohibits---and can prohibit---only review under the
Administrative Procedure Act.  It cannot prohibit, and is not likely
to inhibit, review of Constitutional Claims.  (The ITAR and the EAR
are not ``reviewable'' either; which did not stop Judge Patel in
_Bernstein_ from deciding the constitutional question.)

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From blancw at cnw.com  Wed Sep 10 03:00:52 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (blanc)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:00:52 +0800
Subject: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
Message-ID: <01bcbdd0$3396cf60$0100007f@blancw.cnw.com>



From: Tim May

:+AD4-Nonetheless, people who didn't share his +ACI-vision+ACI-, like IBM, and DEC, and
:+AD4-now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.
:
:Utter nonsense. I lack the time to write about the early history of MS,
:Seattle Computers, and Gary Kildall, but to make this claim above indicates
:Bob is sacrificing objectivity for some sort of cheap shot in favor of MS.
:
:I used to know Kildall, when he was hanging around Intel in the mid-70s,
:and up until two weeks before his death. The situation was a lot more
:nuanced than this +ACI-vision of Bill+ACI- argument suggests.
....................................................


Sometime when you do have some time for it, I for one would be interested what
you mean by this+ADs- what sort of nuances you are referring to.

Billg had some skills, some vision, some luck, some advantages of background
(his knowledgeable, socially-connected parents), some advantages of circumstance
(the developing computer industry), the advantages of intellect (like a
photographic memory), and some very good partners (beginning with Paul Allen)
who also contributed their business judgments and decisions to the success of
the company.   He receives most of the attention, but there are many parts to
this story.

   ..
Blanc






From blancw at cnw.com  Wed Sep 10 03:01:31 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (blanc)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:01:31 +0800
Subject: Stanford on Sept. 19th (Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds)
Message-ID: <01bcbdce$7859e080$0100007f@blancw.cnw.com>



From: Tim May

:I can't promise anything, but I plan to be advancing the cause of crypto
:anarchy on the Stanford campus on Friday, September 19th. After that I may
:be off the list for a while, as I'm heading north.
.......................................................

To nuke Toto?

(ah-ha-ha-ha-ha)
   ..
Blanc






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Wed Sep 10 03:10:37 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:10:37 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709101001.GAA02895@upaya.multiverse.com>



Tim May writes:

: The "software as free speech, which means it can be subjected to prior
: restraint, government censorship, or export control" argument is proceeding
: nicely, thanks to Bernstein, Gilmore, Junger, Cohn, and others, and is a
: much more solid basis for ensuring civil liberties.

Uhrr . . . .  I don't think that is quite the way we phrased the
argument.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Wed Sep 10 03:20:03 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:20:03 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <341619BC.6A3F@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199709101013.GAA02982@upaya.multiverse.com>



"James S. Tyre" writes:

: Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note). 
: If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:
: 
: . . . .
: 
: 2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
: plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
: only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
: who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
: and then is turned down.

There would, undoubtedly, have to be some showing of standing, but
that would not require going through the bureaucratic hoops of trying
to get a license _if_ the denial of a license is not reviewable under
the APA, and perhaps not even then.  It is the requirement that one
get a license, not the denial of the license, that is a prior
restraint in violation of the First Amendment and if a licensing
scheme on speech is to be upheld it must provide for prompt judicial
review.  (And normally providing judicial review is not enought to
get around the prior restraint challenge.)  

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From bdolan at USIT.NET  Wed Sep 10 03:20:28 1997
From: bdolan at USIT.NET (Brad Dolan)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:20:28 +0800
Subject: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <199709100701.DAA10459@homeport.org>
Message-ID: 



The TNO is a Dutch research organization.  Based on this blind man's
view of the elephant, it's sort of like a national lab, but with a more
applied focus.

bd

On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> | We've received from anonymous a report on breaking
> | Mondex's pilot system by TNO along with a confidential
> | 1996 memo describing the break:
> | 
> |    TNO's Ernst Bovenlander gave some details of these 
> |    attacks (though he didn't mention Mondex as the target). 
> 
> 	This seems pretty cool (the point in the memo about 'security
> being suitable for purpose' with purpose left undefined but implied by
> Mondex to be 'low value' is very interesting).  However, its not clear
> to me who TNO is?
> 
> Adam
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 
> 






From tm at dev.null  Wed Sep 10 03:40:08 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:40:08 +0800
Subject: Good forger, bad forger / Vin Suprynowicz Column, Sept. 12Column, Sept. 12
Message-ID: <341675E1.6401@dev.null>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 5581
URL: 

From adejoode at replay.com  Wed Sep 10 03:59:17 1997
From: adejoode at replay.com (Alex de Joode)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:59:17 +0800
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199709101049.MAA08027@basement.replay.com>



Do they own the trademark in the UK ? If not you can still use
Anonymizer for whatever service you are providing in the UK.

-- 
EOF






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep 10 04:37:52 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:37:52 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: <199709100526.WAA07506@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: 



sameer  writes:

>
> 	That appears to me to make specific export approvals not
> subject to review but the law can still be subject to review.
>
> > Let me clarify my earlier comments. The language sez Defense & Commerce
> > together can veto crypto exports, and:
> >
> > "Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
> > Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
> > this section shall not be subject to judicial review."
> >
>
>
> --
> Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
> President					FAX:     510-986-8777
> C2Net
> http://www.c2.net/				sameer at c2.net
>

Is Sameer upset because so many senators and congresspersons are Jewish?

Just have your shysters send them a barratrous leter. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep 10 04:38:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:38:05 +0800
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Suitcase for sale
In-Reply-To: <199709100451.AAA19641@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: 



Sean Roach  writes:

>
> At 06:32 PM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >Weight of suitcase: 80 lbs.
> >
> >Scheduled to check in; check the weight.
> >
> >For details contact: toto at sk.sympatico.ca
> >
> SWAPSHOP:
> Interested in one luggage carrier capable of holding 80 pound suitcase to
> underside of wing of unmarked private plane that can be jettosoned remotely.
> Looking for good offer as 1,000,000 already spent on suitcase.

You don't need some complicated delivery systems for a nuke...
Just leave it in the trunk of a car parked within a few blocks
from the target.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 04:40:38 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:40:38 +0800
Subject: C2Net bastards (Was: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709101130.NAA11584@basement.replay.com>



Tim May  writes:

> You mean the way  had lawyers send threatening letters to 
> warning him not to further publicize the claimed security flaws in
> , the security product sold by ?
>
> I myself received a phone call from , warning me to not to even
> make reference to the rumors that  had flaws in it.
>
> Some of you know what I mean.

For those who still don't know what Tim May means, the barratrous
threats came from the crypto snake oil peddler C2Net and its Arab
owner Sameer Parekh.

Sameer's "product", StrongHold, is a hacked version of the free Web
server Apache, and has more backdoors and security holes than
Swiss cheese.






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 10 05:31:16 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:31:16 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101225.HAA10299@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: amp at pobox.com
> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:49:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)

> >  From: Jim Choate 
> >
> >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> 
> 1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%

Not in this democracy they don't. In every democracy currently extant there
is a bill of rights. The government may not respect it, but that is a flaw
of implimentation not theory.

> 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
> capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.

See above.

> 3. A pure democracy is true mob rule - a mob has no concience, or bounds to 
> it's tyranny. Look into the history of ancient Athens.

Since there are no true democracies extant your point is moot.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 10 05:56:28 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:56:28 +0800
Subject: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101256.HAA10378@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" 
> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 01:07:15 -0400
> Subject: Re: Comdemnation of 'The Sovereign Individual'...

> You sense of "morality" does not give you the right to steal from me to
> support it. In a free society you are more then welcome to spend as much

First it isn't morality in the sense of personal decisions of right and
wrong but rather a question of professional ethics akin to a doctor or
engineer. It is basic questions about the limits and responsibilities
involved in specific activities.

Your 'free society' is a euphamism for anarchy. You are promoting a system
where all activity is voluntary.  In such a system nothing higher than
unshaven naked peole with a rock and the rabbit they just killed exists.
There is no motivation in such an environment to build higher
infrastructures because there is no mechanism to provide environmental
stability.

In such a system individuals don't have time to do anything but protect what
they have and take as much of their neighbors environ as possible. They
don't have time for anything else, if they go off and spend 8 hours building
that nice pretty public road for that new auto plant their neighbors take
what they have and tomorrow they discover they don't have time for that
public road after all. You might say, well let your wife and kids watch it.
To that I say, isn't that the same as letting elected officials build a
infrastructure - there is an implied taxation taking place. Furthermore you
have about the same amount of security in both systems - I doubt you would
be brash enough to propose that all husbands can trust all wives and kids.

> you want on the children of others. You *DO NOT* have the right to spend
> my money on them. That is a decision that I and I alone have the right to
> make.

Not if you are a citizen and abiding by the contractual agreement between
you and the n-1 citizens of your nation.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cpunks at www.video-collage.com  Wed Sep 10 06:11:02 1997
From: cpunks at www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:11:02 +0800
Subject: USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101301.JAA00512@www.video-collage.com>



----- Forwarded message from ACM US Public Policy Office -----

>From cpunks  Wed Sep 10 06:16:47 1997
Message-Id: 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:02:32 -0400
To: list 
From: ACM US Public Policy Office 
Subject: USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk


PRESS RELEASE

Association for Computing
U.S. Public Policy Office

September 8, 1997

USACM APPLAUDS CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE FOR UNANIMOUSLY
ENDORSING RELAXED EXPORT CONTROLS ON ENCRYPTION


As the Congress prepares to address the issue of computer
security and privacy, the California legislature has sent
a clear message that relaxing controls on cryptography is
a critical first step.

On September 5, the California legislature passed a
resolution that calls on the California members in
Congress to support legislation that would make it easier
for US companies to develop and market strong cryptography
products. The resolution was sponsored by Representative
Vasconcellos (D. San Jose) and passed without opposition.

Dr. Barbara Simons, chair of the policy committee for
the Association for Computing (USACM), said that the
California resolution makes clear that industry and
users are united in support of good cryptography.

"We believe that Congress should support the Security
and Freedom Act, sponsored by Representative Goodlatte.
The legislation will help protect security and privacy
on the internet. It will be a serious mistake for the
administration to oppose the development of this
technology," said Dr. Simons.

On August 26, USACM Chair Barbara Simons spoke in support
of the Vasconcellos resolution before a California Senate
committee. Also participating at the Committee hearing were
Dr. Whit Diffie from Sun, Kelly Blough from PGP, Jack Wilson of
ACL Datacom, Chuck Marson representing the California Internet
Industry Alliance (Netscape, Microsoft, AOL, CompuServe and
 Netcom), and a representative of the Software Publishers
Association.  Undersecretary of Commerce Reinsch wrote a
letter opposing the resolution.

The Association for Computing (ACM) is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society with 76,000 members worldwide,
 60,000 of whom reside in the U.S.  USACM, the Association for
Computing's U.S. Public Policy Office, serves as the focal point
for ACM's interaction with U.S. government organizations,
 the computing community and the U.S. public in all matters of
U.S. public policy related to information technology. The USACM
web site is located at http://www.acm.org/usacm/

For more information, please contact USACM Chair Barbara Simons at
408/256-3661 or USACM Associate Director Lauren Gelman at 202/544-4859.

/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Association for Computing,             +   http://www.acm.org/usacm/
Office of U.S. Public Policy           *   +1 202 544 4859 (tel)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 302 B  *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
Washington, DC 20003   USA             +   gelman at acm.org

To subscribe to the ACM Washington Update, send e-mail to: listserv at acm.org
with "subscribe WASHINGTON-UPDATE name" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.



----- End of forwarded message from ACM US Public Policy Office -----






From cpunks at www.video-collage.com  Wed Sep 10 06:11:12 1997
From: cpunks at www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:11:12 +0800
Subject: Infoworld and Denning's study (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101302.JAA00934@www.video-collage.com>



----- Forwarded message from Peter Gutmann -----

>From cpunks  Tue Sep  9 00:08:29 1997
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: Re: Infoworld and Denning's study
Reply-To: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz
X-Charge-To: pgut001
X-Authenticated: relaymail v0.9 on cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:58:02 (NZST)
Message-ID: <87377748221122 at cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk

 
>Infoworld NZ has just published an awful article (written by US reporter Sari 
>Kalin and titled "Criminals Eyeing Encryption"), which emphasises repeatedly 
>that encryption is a major problem just waiting to happen, using Dorothy 
>Dennings report as a basis.  This represents a rather ugly way to interpret 
>the report (and, presumably, an attempt by the USG to recover something from 
>a report which was supposed to come down firmly in favour of crypto 
>restrictions but didn't).  
 
Due to the late hour I got that wrong, it's Computerworld NZ, not Infoworld 
(slight difference in naming).  Even later last night I wrote a letter to the 
editor which, I gather, will appear in the next issue.  I've included it below 
in case anyone finds it useful, it's written for a general audience who 
probably aren't aware of the deeper issues apart from the fact that the USG 
has a peculiar attitude towards crypto, due to length constraints I couldn't 
go into too much detail.  If you feel the need to circulate this, please don't 
do so until after next Monday when it's officially published.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
The article "Crims eyeing encryption" in the September 9 Computerworld 
presents an extremely peculiar view of the study "Encryption and Evolving 
Technologies in Organised Crime and Terrorism".  The final conclusion of the 
study was that there is no real "encryption problem" which justifies placing 
limitations on the use of encryption, and yet the article, by more or less 
ignoring the conclusion and concentrating instead on a number of 
scaremongering quotes, manages to create exactly the opposite impression.  To 
understand what's involved here, it might be useful to know a bit about the 
background of the study.
 
For a number of years the US government has held that it needs to strongly 
restrict peoples access to encryption.  They can't actually provide you with 
any supporting facts for this because they're all classified, but if they were 
allowed to tell you, they're certain you'd agree with them.  Now over the 
years they came to the realisation that people weren't really buying this 
argument, and so they decided to create a study which would provide proof, 
once and for all, that they were right.  The two people who worked on this 
study were Dorothy Denning, virtually the only supporter of the US governments 
policy apart from the US government itself, and a vice-president of SAIC, a 
large defence contractor.
 
They toiled away for quite some time, and finally announced their results a 
month or two back.  Unfortunately the findings put them in a rather awkward 
position: Although the study was supposed to provide proof that there was some 
sort of "encryption problem" which needed to be countered, it instead showed 
that there wasn't really a problem at all.  Sure, it showed that criminals 
occasionally use encryption, just like criminals also drive cars, eat pizza, 
drink Coke, and (quite probably) read Computerworld.  The important point - 
which was almost completely ignored in the article in favour of running 
scaremongering quotes from a variety of US government officials - was that 
the "encryption problem", the whole reason for the governments' claimed need 
to restrict encryption, by and large didn't exist.
 
It got even worse for the government though.  So convincing was the evidence 
in the study that Denning - for years a very outspoken supporter of their 
policies - did an about-face and declared that she was no longer prepared to 
back government plans for restricting encryption until someone proved to her 
that there was a very good reason for it (this was reported in a number of US 
papers and publications which cover computer issues, so it was reasonably well 
known, eg "Denning unable to confirm FBI Assertions; alters her position" in 
the Mercury News, the largest silicon valley paper).  Although the governments 
star technical witness was unable to find any evidence that their position was 
valid, the Computerworld article, by resorting to selective quoting and 
innuendo, paints a very different, and quite inaccurate, picture.
 
(As a side-note, I find it amusing to read that the government policy relies 
on people handing over their encryption keys to them.  Quite apart from the 
question of why anyone would trust the US government with their keys, there's 
also the small problem that no criminal will ever do this - that's why they're 
criminals after all.  The only ones who'll ever get caught by this cunning 
plan are you and I).
 
-- Snip --
 
(I'm assuming most readers will get the Baldrick/Blackadder reference in the 
last sentence :-).
 

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Gutmann -----






From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 10 06:39:17 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:39:17 +0800
Subject: The "Vision" Thang, and Tales out of School...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 1:36 am -0400 on 9/10/97, Tim May wrote:


> Nonsense. A lot of those machines are running Linux, or other flavors of
> Unix. And lots of other microprocessors comparable in every way to Intel's
> processors are running the Mac OS, or some flavor of Unix, or whatever.

I'd love to see the numbers on that. Though, I wonder where the "90% of the
world's computers" hype comes from...

> Had MS never existed, the world would still be consuming vast amounts of
> microprocessors. Possibly more, many of us think.

Yes. But would they be, in such a large proponderance, Intel processors?

Granted, I was a little quick on the draw with the "last 10 years of Intel
existance" crack. Intel would certainly still be here, but, without the x86
demand, caused primarily by DOS, and especially by WIN3.1, maybe they
wouldn't be so much in the catbird seat. Of course, they've had a "vision
thang" of their own at Intel. They own the Valley franchise, certainly.

> ( I use a Mac, as may be known to many of you. The issue of the OS is
> separable from the issue of the processor...the Mac OS is no more tied to
> the Motorola 680X0 than the MS OS is tied to the Intel x86. Indeed, the Mac
> OS runs on the IBM/Motorola PowerPC, and the Windows NT OS runs on the DEC
> Alpha (and used to run on the PPC).

Yes, yes, yes. And Apple, according to Don Crabb this week, is gonna use
IBM and probably Intel chips, too, some day, though I'm not sure what
machine *you* use has to do with this discussion. The comment about Intel
was certainly not a shot at you, Tim, after all...

> >My understanding is that for all his apopletic "code reviews", Billzebub
> >couldn't code his way out of a paper bag.
> >
>
> Also nonsense.

Really? I have cited a source to the contrary. Would you like to provide
your own proof of Bill Gates' programming ability instead? I'd love myself
to see the commented code, even from, say, QuickBASIC, with the ';--BG' or
something, next to the revisions... Don't even need whole modules. Frankly,
I've never heard of any, and you can bet that the Redmond publicity machine
would have said something by now after 10 years.


> >Nonetheless, people who didn't share his "vision", like IBM, and DEC, and
> >now Apple, and all the rest of his competition, got their clocks cleaned.
>
> Utter nonsense. I lack the time to write about the early history of MS,
> Seattle Computers, and Gary Kildall, but to make this claim above indicates
> Bob is sacrificing objectivity for some sort of cheap shot in favor of MS.

I didn't think I was saying anything that wasn't conventionally accepted
opinion, there. :-).

I think you're just disputing this because *I* said it, Tim. Sort of a bad
reason to argue, isn't it?

After all, I'm a certified Mac Bigot, myself, if you insist on
psychoanalyzing my motivation from a two line sentence. :-). It seems to me
a fortune now measured in tens of billions of dollars, and the most
plutographic magazine in the world calling him the richest man on the
planet kind of speaks  for itself, wouldn't you?

> I used to know Kildall, when he was hanging around Intel in the mid-70s,
> and up until two weeks before his death. The situation was a lot more
> nuanced than this "vision of Bill" argument suggests.

Yeah, I know, Tim. You *knew* Gary Kildall, and Bill Gates is *no* Gary
Kildall. :-). He certainly wasn't.

> Are you making this stuff up as you go along? You spout about the "vision
> of Bill," but then you fantasize about how he and Paul got Altair Basic
> out.

Actually, don't blame me. My fantasy life isn't *that* healhy. It's in that
'Hard Drive' book, and I expect that the authors, particularly as they
hoped to remain employed in Seattle at the time :-), probably had their
facts straight.

> As it happens, I also know the founders of Zilog, and the Z-80 was not
> available at the time the Altair and IMSAI machines were gaining
> popularity. (A friend of mine designed the IMSAI 8080, the first
> semi-decent S-100 machine. I'm tempted to e-mail this fantasy to him and
> give him his laugh for the evening.)

Okay. Granted I had the chip name wrong. That was what the little (?) was
for next to the chip's name for, anyway. Sorry, but at midnight I wasn't
about to wake the fact checking department for the company name. However,
the fact is that the chip emulator was at Harvard, as was the PDP-11 BASIC
source, and the claim was made by several people who were there at the
time, to the authors of "Hard Drive", that Allen and Gates did use both the
emulator and the BASIC source, on the Harvard machines, to port the DEC
BASIC to the chip which the Altair used (whatever it was), which they in
turn took to Albuquerque and MIPS. (Or whatever the company's name was
which made the Altair, which is, like its chip manufacturer's name,
irrelevant to the point I was making.)

> The larger issues of Bill Gates' contributions, or whatever, to the world
> are much more nuanced than these fantasies would have it.

Sticks and stones, Tim. Insults don't become such well-known expositor of
rational thought...

And then Tim says:

> The issue of chip production is largely orthogonal to the issue of which OS
> is being used. Like I said, if one believes the critics of Windows, Intel
> would have sold _more_ chips had machines been less brain-damaged.

And refutes it with:

> Or maybe
> it takes a 200 MHz Pentium Pro to make up for the inefficient OS.

Which, of course proves, my point. Thank you. :-).


My own specious gerrymandering of your words aside, I do think that
software does drive hardware, as Microsoft folks, like Mhyrvold, often
claim, "Software is a gas", and all that. How else do you explain things
like the x86's imbedded floating point circuitry, and now the MMX stuff,
which will certainly end up on the x86 someday if Intel doesn't get RISC
religion...

Heck, the demand for RISC is, paradoxically, driven by software itself,
don't you think? Just move some microcode over to software and the chip
runs faster, or whatever the rationale is.

Could it be your desire to rip my heart out and show it to me before I die
is clouding your judgement about something you know a lot about?

Nawwww...


> But I won't buy the canonization of Bill Gates as the Engine of the
> Revolution.

Neither do I, even on the canonical inverse, my smart cracks about
"Billzebub" not withstanding. However, if money's the way you keep score,
n-dy billion dollars pretty much speaks for itself, I figure...

Seriously, there is something to be said for BillG's assimilative impulses
and understanding of the markets he's in. I would more certainly attribute
his fortune to his own "vision", than to dumb luck and path determinacy,
which is what I think I hear you saying.

Clearly, the market would look different without Bill Gates in it. I
attibute that to "grand vision".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From Syniker at aol.com  Wed Sep 10 07:12:57 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:12:57 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <970910100256_1820133882@emout11.mail.aol.com>



>>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?<<

Me.
Whatever anyone else does, I'm going to first...
ignore any government mandates or law on crypto [use it anyway]
then, challenge them... and finally, defy them. Period.
That's where I'm at.
And, I'm going to tell them that's what I'm going to do.
On any website I can.

Larry.






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Subject: adobe and microsoft products cheap, 22
Message-ID: <199709101270CAA38926@smtp_verification-900097765.121.208.68>


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From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Wed Sep 10 07:40:53 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:40:53 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History /  Wiretap DiFi
Message-ID: <199709101429.KAA08180@www.video-collage.com>



At 09:14 PM 9/9/97 -0400, declan wrote:
>
...
>I'd like to ask that if anyone is planning to Nuke Washington, they
>politely let me know so I can go on an extended business trip to the
>Montana mountains. I mean, it's just common courtesy!
...
What? And have another Juy Falkes Disaster?
One of Guy Falkes co-conspirators warned a parlament member who happened to
be Catholic to stay clear on the appointed day, that is how word got out.
You would feel compelled to tell your closest friends.  Who would, if they
didn't just blab outright, tell others that they might want to leave.
Ultimately, someone who dates a congressional aide will tell the aide, who
having a certain loyalty to the congressperson would warn the
congressperson, etc...
No, it's best that you die.
But at least you'll die a martyr.






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Wed Sep 10 07:47:53 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:47:53 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 



Jim Choate wrote:
> Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
> There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
> On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
> Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
> Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
> other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
> firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
> the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
> large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
> fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
> feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...

Contrived? Did you read the post from News of the Weird about the
funeral home owners in Bankok(?) who were paying hospital employees
to murder patients who were known to them and likely to use their
services when they died? (Subject: Oxygen Escrow?)
Sadly, no matter what sicko, bizarre scenario you wish to 'contrive'
in order to illustrate a point, if your point is valid, then it is
likely that you can find a real-life example that runs parallel to it.






From stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com  Wed Sep 10 08:07:13 1997
From: stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com (stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:07:13 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
> >International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is
> >"activities that
> >(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life
> >that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United
> >States or of any State, or that would be a criminal
> >violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United
> >States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to
> >intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to
> >influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
> >coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
> >assassination or kidnaping."

I can't read this paragraph without shaking my head in awe. Even if their
motives were for the best, which is certainly debateable, who here _can't_
think of a few incidents where our own government's agencies were involved
in _exactly_ these sorts of activities?  I realize that I'm not saying
anything that hasn't been noted time and again in this forum, but I
suppose I'm young enough that this sort of blatant doublespeak just blows
my mind.

-stonedog








From jseiger at cdt.org  Wed Sep 10 08:13:15 1997
From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:13:15 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 7:52 PM -0700 9/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> I am not suggesting that we should relax because the Administration is not
>> completely satisfied with this provision. They scored a hit against SAFE,
>> just like we won one at the Foreign Relations Committee.  Border skirmishes
>> in the larger, ongoing war.
>
>The war in Congress is essentially over. There is no realistic hope of
>good crypto legislation passing. I'd be interested to hear any
>hypothetical that you'd suggest to the contrary. Keep in mind when
>concocting it that you'd have to get past the Senate -- where pro-crypto
>legislation has been dead for months -- and a presidential veto.

I agree that things look pretty bleak and that the chances for passing good
crypto legislation are not so good at the moment.  And, for the record, CDT
strenuously opposes the amended SAFE bill, S. 909, and the various
proposals coming from the FBI.  We also do not see a way to reconcile these
proposals, and are not working for a "deal" (sorry Seth).

We plan on opposing these bills by vigorously engaging in the process --
being there at every turn to tell the Congress and the Administration why
they are wrong, why key recovery won't work, and why export relief is
necessary to promote privacy and security on the Net in a way that is
constructive and moves the issue forward.

Lets step back for a moment and look at the bigger picture.

We all agree that the status quo is not good for privacy.  The Bernstein
case was important in proving our rhetorical points (and good for
Bernstein), but it didn't topple the current export policy, which we all
know is crippling the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use crypto.

The Administration WANTS legislation to impose key recovery and wants
continued export restrictions.  It has passed the Senate Commerce
Committee, it's in the current export policy, and the FBI is likely to get
it approved by the Intelligence committee tomorrow.

If they succeed and mandatory key recovery becomes law, there will
certainly be court challenges (and CDT would join that fight), but it won't
be as clear cut as the CDA case was, and it's doubtful we would have the
strength (and the resources) of as broad a coalition of plaintiffs.  We may
be right, but that doesn't guarantee victory.

Eventually, if we want to achieve anything, we will need to change the
current policy.  We do not believe that can be accomplished by simply by
being 'obstructionists'.  We do believe that it can be accomplished by
engaging in the process, letting Congress and the Administration know that
we care about this issue, and are willing to fight for what we believe. We
are not ready to give up just because we took a hit in the National
Security Committee.

Hope that helps clarify.

Jonah




* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151

                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger











From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Wed Sep 10 08:21:28 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:21:28 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709101225.HAA10299@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep10.111021edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > From: amp at pobox.com
> > Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 22:49:25 -0500
> > Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
> 
> > >  From: Jim Choate 
> > >
> > >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> > 
> > 1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%
> 
> Not in this democracy they don't. In every democracy currently extant there
> is a bill of rights. The government may not respect it, but that is a flaw
> of implimentation not theory.

You asked what are the top three flaws in democracy, not if they could be
remediated, or what those remediations might be.  If your aim is the best
form, then it might be a mixture of different forms with separation of
powers.  But then you are defending the mix, not the component.

When you say "Not in this democracy", are you defending the form because
it has a democratic component and because it is limited (since I don't
think you aren't argumenting that this component should be expanded), or
because you are using the word "democracy" in the broader sense to
describe the mixture? 

> > 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can
> > capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.
>
> See above.

The problem is that they do.  Otherwise where does the support for
"progressive" taxation come from?  The 51% vote to tax (confiscate the
property of) the 49%.  The "middle class" majority votes itself
entitlements at the expense of both the poor and the rich.  Social
Security taxes the working poor to subsidize the healthcare of elderly
regardless of assets or income.  These did not come from courts, or
executive orders.

This is not a mere implemetation problem.  If you have any democratic
component, it will eventually infect all levels - the legislature will
withold funds, the executive will proclaim a crisis, elected judges will
declare what they were elected to declare, and in most systems the elected
branches appoint the nonelected branches - pack the presidency and the
senate and you have packed the supreme court.

Or consider the ammendment on Prohibition.

When 51% of the people fear government and refuse on principle to vote it
any more power, we are safe.  When 51% of the people can be bribed with
the wealth of even 1%, we are lost.  So democracies require virtue from
the people that will deny themselves the short term benefits of
transferring power.  Another implementation problem?  If we were all
saints, we would not need any government.

The moment the people think the government is the servant it will become
the master because they will slowly but eventually vote it totalitarian
powers.  

Back at the 16th ammendment, the income tax was only going to be 2% on the
superrich.  Or look at what the "Four Horseman" are doing in today's
democracies.

"Concede the principle of limiting government - just in this one little
area - and we will make everything better - all you have to do is vote". 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Sep 10 08:24:29 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:24:29 +0800
Subject: C2Net bastards (Was: Mondex Broken
In-Reply-To: <199709101130.NAA11584@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> For those who still don't know what Tim May means, the barratrous
> threats came from the crypto snake oil peddler C2Net and its Arab
> owner Sameer Parekh.
> 
> Sameer's "product", StrongHold, is a hacked version of the free Web
> server Apache, and has more backdoors and security holes than
> Swiss cheese.

Well Vulis^h^h^h^h^hAnonymous, care to tell us what those holes are so we
can use them?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From marvin at fc.net  Wed Sep 10 08:32:57 1997
From: marvin at fc.net (Marvin Long)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:32:57 +0800
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
> > There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
> > On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
> > Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
> > Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
> > other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
> > firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
> > the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
> > large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
> > fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
> > feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...
> 

Not contrived at all.  This is *exactly* how Crassus became the wealthiest
man in Rome.


Marvin Long, Jr.






From jordan at macandco.com  Wed Sep 10 08:38:34 1997
From: jordan at macandco.com (Jordan McCrackin by way of Alec McCrackin )
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:38:34 +0800
Subject: Deadly Argyles [was Miami Vice]
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970910112454.007cf330@smtp1.abraxis.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 1443 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From attila at hun.org  Wed Sep 10 09:17:39 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:17:39 +0800
Subject: medical records next. does it ever end?
Message-ID: <199709101603.KAA23312@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

ref: http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/medical-files.html

    and, of course, we all know that our friendLY, loyal, trustworthy,
    and obedient police departments can keep a secret and protect the
    innocent.

    NYT lead article today indicates Clinton bowing to LEOs to:

        ...gain broad access to patients' medical records, with hardly 
        any restrictions on use or redisclosure of the data.   

        "We recommend that providers and payers be permitted to rely on 
        the statement of law-enforcement officials that an inquiry meets 
        these standards," the administration says....

    and we all know the police never lie when theY're fishing!

        The administration proposal would not require law-enforcement 
        agencies to get court orders or to notify patients when they 
        seek medical records. Patients would not be assured of an 
        opportunity to challenge the disclosure of their files, though 
        the records could later be used against them in investigations 
        or prosecutions. 
    
    fourth amendment mean _anything_ to these petty dictators? has the
    US become just another bananna republic at the interest of the 
    power brokers?  are we stretching the idea of a republic a bit
    thin?

        "Our recommendations accommodate the interests of law     
        enforcement rather well," said an administration official who 
        helped draft the proposal. "The Justice Department got almost 
        everything it wanted." 

    THIS is what is wrong with the US! the courts have become 
    adversarial playgrounds for the prosecutors for the benefit of the 
    "state"  the old rule used to be if you were _charged_ by the Feds, 
    start plea bargaining --if you go to court, the sentence will 
    triple. just "fuck" the concept of innocent until proven guilty, or
    'hey, man, you were arrested, weren't you?'

        Andrew Fois, an assistant attorney general, said, "There has 
        been no documented history suggesting that law-enforcement 
        agencies have abused their current access to medical records, or 
        that existing federal and state law is inadequate to guard 
        against such a danger." 

    LIAR!  I'll bet this man would lie to his own mother if it meant
    his courtroom body count ratio increased. What state or federal 
    law? there is no restriction to LEO access currently; Congress is
    considering bills on protecting access, and the LEOs want total
    exemption from the rules.

    TIME FOR THE INTERMOUNTAIN EMPIRE TO SECEDE FROM THE 
    UNCONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON.
 
 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From sunder at brainlink.com  Wed Sep 10 10:04:51 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:04:51 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709100241.VAA07451@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Let's look at an admittedly contrived example but I believe it will suffice.
> There are two fires at opposite ends of the coverage area for a fire house.
> On Saturday they receive a call to go to one end, where the wealthy live.
> Would you have the owner pay prior to the firemen putting the fire out?
> Would they pay some premium beforehand? Now on Sunday a fire occurs on the
> other end where the poor are. Assuming they can't pay the bill would the
> firemen drive away? If so, wouldn't this in fact pose a threat not only to
> the other poor but also the wealthy since the fire might spread if it got
> large enough. Would the wealthy then be asked to pay for that run of the
> fire truck? What if they refused, how would the firemen pay for the food to
> feed their family? Perhaps go out and burn down more rich houses...

Incorrect, Citizen Unit Choate.  Firemen do not put out fires, where did
you come up with such a notion?  All houses are fireproof.  Firemen burn
books. Books are evil.  Have you any books Citizen Unit Choate?  Perhaps
hiding in your toaster, or oven, or a cored out television set?  Perhaps
books on crypto?  Bend over to the state, Citizen Unit Choate - of course
we will remove the appropriate fines from your savings, the Firemen have
to be paid, of course, and the victims of your evil books have to be
compensated.  The poor congressmen and TLA agents..

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From amp at pobox.com  Wed Sep 10 10:16:48 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:16:48 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709101225.HAA10299@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 





 From: Jim Choate 
> > >
> > >Please be so kind as to detail your top three flaws...
> > 
> > 1. In a democracy, 51% of the people can vote to enslave the other 49%
> 
> Not in this democracy they don't. In every democracy currently extant
> there is a bill of rights. The government may not respect it, but that
> is a flaw of implimentation not theory.

You miss the point entirely. This is =not= supposed to be a democracy. That 
is why we have a constitution (theoretically a set of restrictions upon the 
powers of government), and bill of rights. 

> 
> > 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
> > capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.
> 
> See above.
> 
> > 3. A pure democracy is true mob rule - a mob has no concience,
> > or bounds to 
> > it's tyranny. Look into the history of ancient Athens.
> 
> Since there are no true democracies extant your point is moot.
 
There have been, that is why the point is not moot. The point is, we are 
becoming one, with the advent of instant polling and politicians and 
citizens who obviously can't read as simple a document as the constitution.


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/10/97
Time: 10:32:29
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Microsoft will use Diffie-Hellman in Internet Explorer 4.0 and Windows 
NT. See:

http://www.cylink.com/html/microsoft.html



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From owl at owlsnest.com  Wed Sep 10 10:19:35 1997
From: owl at owlsnest.com (owl at owlsnest.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:19:35 +0800
Subject: Is Your Web Site A Secret?
Message-ID: <199709101639.MAA04736@owlsnest.com>



     Is your web site the best kept secret on the Internet?

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HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?

Generally, we complete the submissions within 48 hours of
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===Web Promotions=====Press Releases=====Link Exchanges=========
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                   260 E. Main Street
                   Brewster, NY 10509
Ph: 914-278-4933  Fx: 914-278-4507  E-mail: owlseye at owlsnest.com






From RBL at cosmos.com  Thu Sep 11 01:21:50 1997
From: RBL at cosmos.com (RBL at cosmos.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: THE COSMOS                                                           THE UNIVERSE         2
Message-ID: <199709110819.EAA13215@brickbat8.mindspring.com>


E=MC  The equation for the atom bomb. It says that matter and energy are the 
same thing. So then what is that? Matter, look at a brick. Its in a three dimensional
form. Its made of electrons,  protons and neutrons (atoms) and they are moving so
the brick is moving. Energy, sunlight. Its in a three dimensional form. It comes to us
from the sun therefore it is moving. 3D and moving Both matter and energy are 3D
and moving. I outproduce Einstein. We already know all matter has gravity. The
bending of light shows that energy has gravity also. So matter and energy are
3D moving with gravity. The universe is made of matter, energy, time and space.
That just stated is the matter and energy part. Time and space. Take everything
in the universe and stop it. Does time progress? No. Therefore time is the motion
and the understanding of all the motion is the understanding of all of time.
Space, it ends. Space does not go on forever. Space is in a three dimensional
form. It moves but does not have gravity. Space moves like this.   O  /\  +  \/  O
And that is the understanding of all of time.
   O   This is what was first in the beginning.
   /\  This is the old kings and queens.
   +   This is democracy.
   \/  This is socialism.
   O   This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
And that is the understanding of the universe.  Glory be to the Father the Son
and the Holy Ghost. Revelation chapter 10 & 11; 15-19. It is very important the
people receive this information. You may tell someone about this.
                                                 Thank You
                                               Robert Lavelle   






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 10 11:02:21 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:02:21 +0800
Subject: "Secure in one's papers" is becoming meaningless
In-Reply-To: <199709101603.KAA23312@infowest.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:37 AM -0700 9/10/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    NYT lead article today indicates Clinton bowing to LEOs to:
>
>        ...gain broad access to patients' medical records, with hardly
>        any restrictions on use or redisclosure of the data.
>
>        "We recommend that providers and payers be permitted to rely on
>        the statement of law-enforcement officials that an inquiry meets
>        these standards," the administration says....

Just routine developments in the latter stages of the American Imperial New
World Order. Government can tie in to the networks of medical data as an
aid to tracking citizen-units, as a means of ferreting out pseudonyms, and
as a means of gathering dossier data. J. Edgar Hoover would have loved it.

They won't need "don't ask, don't tell" when they have the complete medical
records of us all. And they'll have the background they need to pressure
recalcitrant senators who don't support their programs. And so on.

(And the citizen-units will be powerles to protest...hospitals are forced
to participate in various statist programs, and are essentially powerless
to turn away patients with HMO and insurance programs, thus pulling all
hospitals into The Program. And in the War on Drugs Age, any doctor who
takes only cash is almost certain to have his license yanked by the
government-approved and -mandated Official Guild.)

>        The administration proposal would not require law-enforcement
>        agencies to get court orders or to notify patients when they
>        seek medical records. Patients would not be assured of an
>        opportunity to challenge the disclosure of their files, though
>        the records could later be used against them in investigations
>        or prosecutions.
>
>    fourth amendment mean _anything_ to these petty dictators? has the
>    US become just another bananna republic at the interest of the
>    power brokers?  are we stretching the idea of a republic a bit
>    thin?

The Fourth is being shredded every day in every way. Probably the
justification here is that the records are not in the possession of the
target. (Recall the usual discussions that if Alice knows something about
Bob, and Big Brother wants it, Alice cannot assert a Fourth Amendment
protection on behalf of the information about Bob. Same applies, and will
eventually apply, to forcing all merchants to maintain databases of who
buys what, and then transferring those records nightly, or hourly to the
Feds' computers. The Fourth will not be usable.)

This is a very important issue. The "secure in one's papers and
possessions" language of the 4th is practically meaningless in today's
world: most of one's important papers and records are not stored locally in
one's home.

Rather, hospital records, phone records, credit records, travel
arrangements, gun purchase records, and so on, are stored with various
hospitals, phone companies, merchants, credit reporting entities, airlines,
car rental companies, hotels, landlords, mortgage companies, etc. They
cannot argue the Fourth on one's behalf (nor do they care to, usually).

Can a contract help? If I contract with Hertz Car Rental that my True Name
not be given out, will this help? It may help in stopping Hertz from
selling my name to mailing list sellers, or from having them notify the
local newspaper that I will be in town (were I to be famous), but it won't
stop a subpoena.

The trend is moving swiftly toward having these service providers provide
data automatically, routinely, as with the airlines linking their
reservations system to various government data bases, even absent a
specific crime or terrorist event.

Expect within 10 years to see hotel and other such services required to
have proof of True Names, and with such records linked to government
computers on a nightly (or even realtime) basis.

The main protection for this is _cash_. But an increasing number of places
will not take cash. (Let's not get off on a tangent about what "legal
tender" is; if Alice says she will only take credit cards or checks, then
Bob is bound by this.)

>        "Our recommendations accommodate the interests of law
>        enforcement rather well," said an administration official who
>        helped draft the proposal. "The Justice Department got almost
>        everything it wanted."
>
>    THIS is what is wrong with the US! the courts have become
>    adversarial playgrounds for the prosecutors for the benefit of the
>    "state"  the old rule used to be if you were _charged_ by the Feds,
>    start plea bargaining --if you go to court, the sentence will
>    triple. just "fuck" the concept of innocent until proven guilty, or
>    'hey, man, you were arrested, weren't you?'

Yes, this is what "plea bargaining" is used for. Sentencing guidelines have
been puffed out, and those entering the legal system are strongly
incentivized to cop a plea.

(One need only look to the case of Jim Bell. Recall that he took a plea,
but his sentencing was held off for 5 or 6 months, instead of being given
right on the spot, as it should have been, to enable him to sing like a
canary. I know some folks who may have grounds for worry that indictments
are being prepared against them.)

>    TIME FOR THE INTERMOUNTAIN EMPIRE TO SECEDE FROM THE
>    UNCONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON.
>

Yep, the so-called militia movement, or patriot group, is gaining a big
bounce out of this.

(It's not for me, though. The Militia of Monterey is big into saying the
Pledge of Allegiance, and that sticks in my craw. )

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From paniko19 at idt.net  Wed Sep 10 11:10:23 1997
From: paniko19 at idt.net (Panikovsky)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:10:23 +0800
Subject: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <199709090543.AAA10682@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3416EAB9.7A1CC701@mail.idt.net>



having joined this lively discusion group
only recently, panikovsky feels he must make
up for the lost time in a hurry, even though
all of the issues (read: none) might not be
familiar to him.  However, never being the one
to be impeded by the facts, he boldly forges on.
And on. and on.

Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch.
>
> > >
> > >
> > Ch generate
> >
> > begin
> > Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn)
> > return Xn+1
> > end
>
> What does aXn(1.0-Xn) mean? That's what I do not understand.
>

that's easy: aXn speaks louder than words.Sore wa Nihongo de nanto
iimasu ka?

> > Do you understand Japanese ?
>
> Nihongo ga dekimasen, wasuremashita:) 1991-ni benkyo simashita.
> Rosia-no
> hito deshita, Amerika-de ikimashita.

Ah, Chudo-san, watashi ga miru.  America ga chobaka deska.  LOL-ga

>
>
> Panikovsky-san nihongo-ga totemo dekimasu.
>

Pain in kovsky-san nihongo wakalimassen.
Paniskovsky-san geri wo shite imasu.

> Yokunai hito ja
> Nai noni do shite
> Wasureta nijimu
> Una sera de Tokyo, a-a
>
> ... that's a neat song I remember.
>

the last line seems vaguely spanish or italian, imho.

> > If you understand Japanese,
> > I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you.
>
> I like C more.

i c nothing

>
>
>         - Igor.

panikovsky had learned the hard way that the most usefulphrase in
"survival japanese" is "utenaide".  [don't shoot]



-- PMS (by any other name would still smell as sweet)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6615/dating.html - your
comprehensive guide on dating and buying Russian women








From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Wed Sep 10 11:19:00 1997
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:19:00 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Brock N. Meeks wrote:
>
>> Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.
>> Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak"
>> which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through
>> the use of phrasing and even tone.
>
>
>Let's look at what Gore did say:
>
>>    WASHINGTON, Sept 9 (Reuter) - With the FBI floating a proposal to
>>regulate the domestic use of computer encoding technology, Vice President
>>Al Gore asserted Tuesday the administration had not changed its policy
>that
>> allows free use within the United States.
>>   "The administration's decision has not changed on encryption, but this
>>is an area where we need to find ways to work together to balance the
>>legitimate needs of law enforcement with the needs of the marketplace,"
>>Gore told a meeting of the Software Publishers Association in Washington.
>
>I agree it's word games, but that's hardly a surprise. Especially since
>Gore's denial seems a bit too narrow. What about the administration's
>policy on free //distribution// of encryption? That's what Louis Freeh
>wants to ban, as an initial move.
>
Declan --

No offence to you as a reporter, but I wouldn't trust Reuter's paraphrasing
of what he said as far as I can throw my monitor.

They paraphrase and then call it a quote.

Does anyone have a transcript of what he actually said?
The whole speech?

It's not on the whitehouse site, nor CNN, nor the SPA site.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997







From janzen at idacom.hp.com  Wed Sep 10 12:07:55 1997
From: janzen at idacom.hp.com (Martin Janzen)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:07:55 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <9709101856.AA06081@sabel.idacom.hp.com>



On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > The Pentagon might lose a
> > bite out of it, and thus look like some kind of mil-spec Apple logo.)

Having just finished reading the "Illuminatus!" trilogy, I _really_ hope
that this doesn't happen...   :-)

MJ






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 12:10:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:10:46 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <199709101853.UAA24002@basement.replay.com>



Syniker at aol.com wrote:
> 
> >>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?<<
> 
> Me.
> Whatever anyone else does, I'm going to first...
> ignore any government mandates or law on crypto [use it anyway]
> then, challenge them... and finally, defy them. Period.
> That's where I'm at.
> And, I'm going to tell them that's what I'm going to do.
> On any website I can.
> 
> Larry.

Bill,
  You could take a much bolder stand by using your real name.

Frank







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 12:10:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:10:48 +0800
Subject: Infoworld and Denning's study (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709101854.UAA24228@basement.replay.com>



> From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)

> (As a side-note, I find it amusing to read that the government policy relies
> on people handing over their encryption keys to them.  Quite apart from the
> question of why anyone would trust the US government with their keys, there's
> also the small problem that no criminal will ever do this - that's why they're
> criminals after all.  The only ones who'll ever get caught by this cunning
> plan are you and I).

Maybe the government will pass a law requiring criminals to all turn
themselves in. Then we won't need LEA's. (And we will no longer have
a government.)







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 12:14:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:14:03 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no
Message-ID: <199709101854.UAA24224@basement.replay.com>



Jonah Seiger wrote:

> The Administration WANTS legislation to impose key recovery and wants
> continued export restrictions.  It has passed the Senate Commerce
> Committee, it's in the current export policy, and the FBI is likely to get
> it approved by the Intelligence committee tomorrow.
> 
> If they succeed and mandatory key recovery becomes law, there will
> certainly be court challenges (and CDT would join that fight), but it won't
> be as clear cut as the CDA case was, and it's doubtful we would have the
> strength (and the resources) of as broad a coalition of plaintiffs.  We may
> be right, but that doesn't guarantee victory.

  *IF* they succeed? (You been on extended vacation?)

  Any bets that the double-secret guys nab a suitcase-nuke carrying 
dark-skinned person a few days before they need to win a crucial vote
in the war against the citizens?

Double-SecretMonger







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Sep 10 12:14:54 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:14:54 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <19970909130000.60003@sequent.com>
Message-ID: <199709101907.OAA08092@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970909130000.60003 at sequent.com>, on 09/09/97 
   at 01:00 PM, Unicorn  said:

>Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
>Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
>produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
>atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
>relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
>devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
>perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.

>But what a dreadfull way to die...


The US military during WWII had plans of doing just that in Europe to
poison the crops and aid in the defeat of Germany. 

Luck for Europe this was never followed through.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBbiTo9Co1n+aLhhAQFxIgQAux4d/Gk5EDl+g/H7SwqrnCh1QlhqkSk5
JIOo1325LCNUyGVJLISd5Y/1rixAXjgWjeiwKk/vDQZQ5k6Je3ofgOgBqz7DWOuy
1M+DUo0B9vIYmlXk5plOLAvn6uycBNLRXf+LaV8H/+H6uLzIskXDSTUrg1+OE6gP
WQXNJRcjZJo=
=X8Wk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 12:16:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:16:28 +0800
Subject: Is Your Web Site A Secret?
Message-ID: <199709101857.UAA24448@basement.replay.com>



owl at owlsnest.com wrote:
> 
>      Is your web site the best kept secret on the Internet?
> 
>      We'll promote it to 50 search engines and indexes for $85
>      and complete the job in 2 business days.  Satisfaction is
>      guaranteed!

Thought the Feds found my AP Bot. Almost had a heart attack.






From hedges at rigel.cyberpass.net  Wed Sep 10 12:26:56 1997
From: hedges at rigel.cyberpass.net (Mark Hedges)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:26:56 +0800
Subject: New Forbes Article
Message-ID: <199709101910.MAA05051@rigel.cyberpass.net>





Patrick Mullen wrote:
>There is a really good article in the new Forbes.  Many 
>familiar names are mentioned...
>
>http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0908/6005172a.htm

It's a great article, but they said that Sameer authored and runs
the Anonymizer. He ran it for a while, but Justin Boyan wrote the
thing, and now we operate the server.

Mark Hedges
Anonymizer Inc.







From loki at infonex.com  Wed Sep 10 12:33:03 1997
From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:33:03 +0800
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: 



At 12:49 PM +0200 9/10/97, Alex de Joode wrote:
>:
>:
>: I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
>: for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
>: name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.
>:
>: I believe I have made changes everywhere the name appears.
>:
>
>Do they own the trademark in the UK ? If not you can still use
>Anonymizer for whatever service you are providing in the UK.
>
>--
>EOF

But they had better not offer the servce over here. In any case, it is a
trade mark whether registered or not.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki at infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 10 13:30:24 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:30:24 +0800
Subject: I told you so
Message-ID: 




To my non-surprise, even the House is getting in on the "ban crypto"
bandwagon.

This just in (excerpted, to limit copyright infringement...read the full
article in your Yahoo or the like service)

Wednesday September 10 2:52 PM EDT

House Panel Votes To Tighten Encryption Controls

By Aaron Pressman

WASHINGTON - The House National Security Committee has approved a proposal
to tighten already strict U.S. export controls
on computer encoding technology, dealing a surprise setback to legislation
that would have relaxed the limits.

In a 45 to 1 vote, the committee adopted an amendment from Rep. Curt Weldon
(R-Pa.) and Rep. Ron Dellums (D-Calif.) that
would condition all exports of coding technology on the potential for harm
to national security.

Software companies, civil libertarians and Internet user groups were
stunned by the amendment, which they said gutted the bill
under consideration.

Coding technology, or encryption, uses mathematical formulas to scramble
information such as electronic mail or a credit card
number sent over the Internet to prevent hackers from stealing the
information.

Encryption has become an increasingly critical means of securing online
commerce and global communications.

Under current policy, U.S. companies can only export encryption products
offering a weak degree of protection, unless the
products also allow the government to decode covertly any coded message.

The Weldon-Dellums amendment requires the president to set "the maximum
level of encryption strength that could be exported
from the United States ... without harm to the national security of the
United States."

Products at or below the established level could be exported after a
one-time review specified by the secretary of commerce with
the concurrence of the secretary of defense.

The president would be required to review the established level annually to
determine if it should be changed without harming
national security.

Representatives of software companies were aghast after the vote. "This is
a disaster," said Rebecca Gould, vice president for
public policy at the Business Software Alliance.

"This was a bold step backward," said Alan Davidson, staff counsel at the
Center for Democracy and Technology, a cyberspace
civil liberties group. "It is worse than the status quo.....

[rest elided]

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From azur at netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 13:37:02 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:37:02 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:53 PM -0700 9/9/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note).
>If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:
>
>1.  Do not expect that it will be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court, as
>was the case with CDA.  Instead, expect that it will start with the
>District Court, take years to get to and through the Court of Appeals,
>and then, if the U.S. Supreme Court decides to hear the matter at all
>(it would have no obligation to do so), much more time there.

Do, however, expect injunctive relief prior to any definitive ruling.

>
>2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
>plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
>only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
>who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
>and then is turned down.

Do expect one or more crypto-libertatians to publicize the shipment of
software in violation of the new rules in order to force a judicial
show-down.

--Steve







From azur at netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 13:38:49 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:38:49 +0800
Subject: Minnesota wins ruling.. in LV website lawsuit
Message-ID: 



Minnesota wins ruling in LV gaming website lawsuit

Assoc Press

ST. PAUL, Minn.-Minnesota has the right to regulate Internet activity, the
state Court of Appeals ruled in a widely watched l case involving a L as
Vegas company's gambling site on the World Wide Web.

The site's operator said Monday he would appeal.

"For Minnesota to have jurisdiction over a site that has never taken a bet,
that requires someone from Minnesota to go look at it, is ludicrous," said
Kerry Rogers, president of Las Vegas-based Granite Gate Resorts Inc.

The case stems from a push by ~Attorney General Hubert HumPhrey IlI to
block Rogers' gambring operation from soliciting business~ from Minnesota
residents on the Internet.

The court's opinion, filed Friday, said Granite Gate demonstrated a clear
intent to solicit business with Minnesota residents, including one
successful solicitation.

Rogers claimed a lack of jurisdiction because he had not mailed anything or
advertised in Minnesota. "We've never taken a single bet in the history of
the deal," Rogers said. "It was an idea. I'm being sued for an idea."

The decision upholds a district judge's refusal to dismiss the case filed
in 1995. The attorney general's office accused Rogers of false advertising,
deceptive trade practices and consumer fraud.

Now, Humphrey said he would seek a court order to stop the advertising and
seek civil penalties of at least $25,000.

Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor who specializes in constitutional,
copyright and computer technology cases, said the decision is "a barrier to
interstate commerce." "This is a very significant case because when you put
up a web site in Nevada, you are essentially doing business in every one of
the 50 states."

He said the debate is over how to characterize the business: Does the
transaction occur in the state of the site's origin, the state where the
user is, or in cyberspace?

--end

PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur at netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | economic and crypto dissident
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	The push by western governments for financial transparency and
	banning unrestricted use of cryptography is blatent politicial
	tyranny.

	Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell







From declan at pathfinder.com  Wed Sep 10 13:41:42 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:41:42 +0800
Subject: Chelsea Clinton's PGP
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




	STANFORD, Calif. (AP) - When Chelsea Clinton becomes the First
Freshman at Stanford University next week, her proud and wistful parents
will be watching.
	And so will reporters and photographers eager to document the
start of her new life 3,000 miles away from home.
	Chelsea, accompanied by President Clinton and first lady Hillary
Rodham Clinton, will begin her Stanford career with five days of
orientation starting Sept. 19th.
	She'll move into her dorm, meet her roommate and get to know the
sprawling campus 30 miles south of San Francisco before classes start on
Sept. 24th.
	The Clintons plan to let reporters follow them about campus on the
first day of orientation with the idea that the press will get enough
pictures and fodder for stories - and then leave Chelsea alone.
	"That's the hope," said Marsha Berry, Mrs. Clinton's press
representative.
	And once she's settled in, Chelsea will not be hounded by the
student newspaper, the Stanford Daily. Rather, she'll be treated as "a
student, a regular student," not as a celebrity, says the paper's editor,
Carolyn Sleeth.
	Chelsea, as the only child of the president, was long protected
from the glare of the press but has recently become something of a public
figure in her own right with increasing public appearances over the past
year. The 17-year-old would-be doctor has received high marks for being
intelligent, poised and personable.
	"I've found inspiration in the effortless grace that a girl half
my age has brought to an intimidating challenge," Patti Davis, Ronald
Reagan's daughter, wrote in Harper's Bazaar about Chelsea.
	"Whatever it is Chelsea does, she's the best person we've ever
seen doing it," the Unofficial Chelsea Clinton Fan Club declares on its
Web site.
	Thousands of people were interested enough in Chelsea to give her
some tongue-in-cheek advice in a survey the Internet company Excite!
recently ran on its Web site.
	"It's like the whole country gets to go to college with her - they
get to live vicariously," said Joe Krauss, one of six Stanford grads who
founded the company.
	Stanford, determined to guard Chelsea's privacy as it would that
of any other student, isn't saying much about her life at the university.
She'll be just one of its entering 1,660 freshman who ante up nearly
$30,000 in tuition, room and board to study at the campus that sits at the
foot of rolling, oak-studded hills.
	But celebrities who've attended other prestigious schools - after
an initial flurry of publicity - have been able to enjoy relatively normal
lives on campus.
	Amy Carter, like Chelsea, created a bit of a stir when she visited
campuses before choosing Brown University. John F. Kennedy Jr. also
attended Brown. Both were treated "just like any other private student,"
said university spokeswoman Tracie Sweeney.
	"Of course, it was a help that their fathers were not sitting
presidents when they were in school. That took some of the pressure off,"
she said.
	Luci Baines Johnson was the last person to go directly from the
White House to college when she decided to attend the University of Texas
in 1966. It was her impending wedding, however, that generated more media
interest.
	Brooke Shields' career at Princeton drew some undercover reporters
- people with notebooks and cameras. The actress, her family and the
university made it clear that while on campus she was no longer a
celebrity but a student entitled to privacy.
	"I understand there were some number of paparazzi in the very
early days who would try to stake out spots on campus," said Princeton
spokesman Justin Harmon.
	"But once offending photographers were escorted off campus and
word got out that we meant to enforce the ground rules ... by and large
folks were quite cooperative," he said.
	Chelsea could find the same privacy at Stanford - except for times
when Mom or Dad visit, attracting reporters again to campus, say Harmon
and Sweeney.
	But fans of the first daughter have admired her ability to
withstand such pressures so far.
	Peter Clipsham, president of the Unofficial Chelsea Clinton Fan
Club, observed that it must be uncomfortable for her to have grown up in
the public eye.
	"Still, she seemed to dance through it," the 19-year-old Ottawa,
Canada resident said.








From wathab at tiac.net  Wed Sep 10 13:52:23 1997
From: wathab at tiac.net (Hiawatha Bray)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:52:23 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>



I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly 
what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that 
doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the 
Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I 
wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.

Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 
pedophile...;-)
So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
volunteers?

Hiawatha Bray
Technology Reporter
Boston Globe
P.O. Box 2378
135 Morrissey Blvd.
Boston, MA  02107-2378  USA
617-929-3115 voice
617-929-3183 fax
http://members.tripod.com/~krothering/index.html


On Wednesday, September 10, 1997 10:04 AM, Syniker at aol.com 
[SMTP:Syniker at aol.com] wrote:
> >>Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?<<
>
> Me.
> Whatever anyone else does, I'm going to first...
> ignore any government mandates or law on crypto [use it anyway]
> then, challenge them... and finally, defy them. Period.
> That's where I'm at.
> And, I'm going to tell them that's what I'm going to do.
> On any website I can.
>
> Larry.
> 






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 10 13:54:01 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:54:01 +0800
Subject: Reichstag Fire and the October Raids
In-Reply-To: <199709101854.UAA24224@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 




So, the House is moving toward drastically tightening non-escrowed crypto
use, via the export laws and the invocation of "national security
considerations." And the Senate is moving toward a complete ban on
non-escrowed crypto. The civil rights groups are now cut completely out of
the picture. The only issue now is whether the full ban on crypto makes it
into the compromise deal. (I'm bettting it won't, as this would be too bold
even for Congress. On First and Fourth Amendment grounds, if nothing else.)

But Something Big is coming down.  Even if domestic strong crypto is not
fully banned, expect a series of moves to make it very unpalatable for most
upstanding citizen units to use. And corporations will be "disincentivized"
to use crypto, except that approved by Washington.

(I wonder what will happen to PGP, Inc. and RSADSI? And to MS and NS?
Probably, cynics will suggest, they are already ramping up their "trusted
third party" and "key recovery" efforts. If so, I hope Phil Z. adheres to
the promise he made publically at a Cypherpunks meeting, and quits PGP,
Inc.)

At 11:54 AM -0700 9/10/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Any bets that the double-secret guys nab a suitcase-nuke carrying
>dark-skinned person a few days before they need to win a crucial vote
>in the war against the citizens?
>

Yep, they need a Reichstag fire. To nudge any recalcitrant Congresscritters.

I'm not (yet) paranoid enough to think the spooks would pull off another
OKC or World Trade Center bombing. But arranging some convenient arrests
would be par for the course.

The Congress hopes to conclude business before the end of November, I've
heard. The full Senate and House will likely vote on the final version of
the "Children's Safety Act," the one which will throttle crypto exports
still further, will criminalize crypto use to the point that few
corporations will dare use it (this is the real strategy), and will move
toward a complete ban on domestic unescrowed crypto.

They'll need some dire threat or significant event to get the vote they want.

I'm thinking it may involve us. The 5-6 months they've had to "debrief"
Bell, to convince him that squealing on anarchists and information
terrorists, and money laundering advovactes, and felons, could mean a
series of indictments will come in October/November.

Whether their charges will "stick" or not is not really the point, is it?
The trial, if one is ever held, will take place many months or even years
after the charges are filed.

Personally, I say everyone who has been active in discussing how to
destabilize and overthrow the fascist governments in Washington, Paris,
Bonn, London, and so on should prepare. In the U.S., prepare for a series
of pre-dawn raids.  In the European People's Republics, I'm not sure what
defensive measures are even possible.

Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid. But even paranoid Cypherpunks have
enemies...and I call them Freeh, McCain, Kerrey (and Kerry), Denning,
Clinton, Dellums, Kyl, Swinestein, and all the rest of the war criminals.

We're at war.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net  Wed Sep 10 14:14:13 1997
From: j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net (James S. Tyre)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:14:13 +0800
Subject: Government shows its hand...good news!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <34170A83.1205@worldnet.att.net>



Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> At 8:53 PM -0700 9/9/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
> >Tim May is correct (as is Declan's clarification of his earlier note).
> >If the amendment does become law, however, do not expect two things:
> >
> >1.  Do not expect that it will be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court, as
> >was the case with CDA.  Instead, expect that it will start with the
> >District Court, take years to get to and through the Court of Appeals,
> >and then, if the U.S. Supreme Court decides to hear the matter at all
> >(it would have no obligation to do so), much more time there.
> 
> Do, however, expect injunctive relief prior to any definitive ruling.
>

Quite possibly.  But only as applied to the individual case, or more
broadly enjoining the government from enforcing the law (if there will
be a law)?  The latter would be better, but many judges would not be
willing to go that far.

> >
> >2.  Do not expect that a case will involve a broad coalition of
> >plaintiffs, as was the case with the CDA.  Expect that the courts will
> >only entertain an action by a plaintiff with traditional standing:  one
> >who goes through all of the bureaucratic hoops trying to get a license,
> >and then is turned down.
> 
> Do expect one or more crypto-libertatians to publicize the shipment of
> software in violation of the new rules in order to force a judicial
> show-down.

I'm not nearly enough of a sucker to bet against that.
> 
> --Steve

-Jim






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 14:29:50 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:29:50 +0800
Subject: I told you so
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> In a 45 to 1 vote, the committee adopted an amendment from Rep. Curt Weldon
> (R-Pa.) and Rep. Ron Dellums (D-Calif.) that
> would condition all exports of coding technology on the potential for harm
> to national security.

And, just (I am starting to sound like Tim :) as I predicted years ago, 
it passes with overwhelming majority. OK, to be honest, I predicted that a
domestic ban/severe restrictions on use of strong crypto would pass with 
well over 90% of the votes. And that prediction of course still stands.

If they can ban machine guns, they can ban crypto. Expect nothing from 
the Supreme Court.

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 14:52:39 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:52:39 +0800
Subject: Reichstag Fire and the October Raids
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Yep, they need a Reichstag fire. To nudge any recalcitrant Congresscritters.

[...]
 
> They'll need some dire threat or significant event to get the vote they want.

I have been thinking about this for days now. They are using the same tired
four horsemen stories they used in 1992. They need something new. 
Something fresh.  Something that conveniently makes the news the week
before the vote. 
 
> I'm thinking it may involve us. The 5-6 months they've had to "debrief"
> Bell, to convince him that squealing on anarchists and information
> terrorists, and money laundering advovactes, and felons, could mean a
> series of indictments will come in October/November.

Somehow I sense they need an event a bit more photogenic than an
indictment. Of course the would prefer bodies. Nothing works stronger PR
magic than bodies of dead children. Then again, perhaps some footage of
the rifles impounded from the Crypto Militia, as the press releases will
call the group, might suffice. Together, perhaps with the corpse of one of
their "leaders". 

> Whether their charges will "stick" or not is not really the point, is it?
> The trial, if one is ever held, will take place many months or even years
> after the charges are filed.

There are two main reasons why there might be no trial: they drop the 
charges or there is no defendant left alive to be put on trial...






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Wed Sep 10 14:57:44 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:57:44 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910172727.031c4b40@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 08:40 PM 9/10/97 +0000, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>
  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program 
that 
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to 
the 
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they 
would, I 
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>
>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 

>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
>volunteers?

Sign me up, Hiawatha. I'll send mail back, too.

And as long as I have your attention, here's another thing that 
occurred to me.

Hawaii's Rep. Abercrombie yesterday suggested that the mere 10 years 
in prison that await crypto exporters aren't nearly enough. Sending 
PGP abroad, he says, ought to be punished with far more than that. 

Fair 'nuff. I wonder how many people might be willing to sign a 
petition stating they have exported crypto - something to deserve 10 
years in the slammer? Surely 1,000 people or more off the lists 
represented here? I suppose Vincent Cate's crypto export page would 
give people a feel for how it works before they move their way up to 
the big leagues?

Cate, of course, is at: http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-
trafficker/

While you're all pondering possible civil disobedience, here's my 
public key.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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=vuty
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

And here's my sig.

Munitions away!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBcQvtZgKT/Hvj9iEQITNACg54p1RWEecsNVoKTWJ7bxU5Gac9YAnjNo
wz6+82b2gSQ4t3CHLhS7uDSf
=2Ah2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter at ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 10 15:07:10 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:07:10 +0800
Subject: GAK patents, anyone?Re: GAK patents, anyone?
Message-ID: <199709102114.WAA05303@notatla.demon.co.uk>



Date Arrived: 10Sep_19:13:47

From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu
-----------

...
> Back up just a minute.
> Aren't inventions protected if the patent is pending?  If not, why do such
> well known companies who undoubtly have savvy legal council produce products
> stamped "patent pending"?

I've always regarded it as "We applied for a patent and it hasn't actually
been refused yet, so keep off."

[The following is based on various magazine articles, net discussions etc.]

Until the last year or so (when it harmonised with GATT) US law produced
"submarine patents".  These were patents applied for, subject to a period
of waiting of course, and then (if granted) were valid _from the date of
the application_ i.e. back-dated.  This meant you could quite innocently
find yourself being clobbered by a patent that had only just sprung into
existence.  There were other problems including the US granting patents
to the 'inventor' - rather than the 'first to file'.  'First to file'
is actually a good indication of who the inventor is.  The other scheme
just got inventor-identity disputed by the lawyers.

For a vision of patents as they should be, I know nothing to beat
Phil Karn's web pages.

http://people.qualcomm.com/karn/patents.html


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From ulf at fitug.de  Wed Sep 10 15:43:19 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:43:19 +0800
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
>   the "Father of the Net."

Funny thing to claim, given that the European Commission of all has
already rejected Internet taxes half a year ago.

"To allow electronic commerce to develop, it is vital for tax systems
to provide legal certainty (so that tax obligations are clear,
transparent and predictable), and tax neutrality (so there is no extra
burden on these new activities as compared to more traditional
commerce). Electronic trade in goods and services clearly falls within
the scope of VAT, in the same way as more traditional forms of trade
do. There is therefore no need to intoduce new, alternative taxes,
such as a bit tax within the EU."
  -- http://europa.eu.int/en/comm/dgiii/press/970416ae.htm

>   ..."If something is becoming an infrastructure that is important for
>   people's daily lives, then governments will have the right to be
>   concerned about the public's safety and well-being," Cerf said. "When
>   you build roads, you make rules about how people are to behave on
>   these roads, in order to protect people." TW

Sure. Why are there no airbags in those datagrams, yet?






From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 10 15:51:47 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:51:47 +0800
Subject: Building in Big Brother, from The Netly News
Message-ID: 



---

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
September 10, 1997

Building in Big Brother
By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
  
        The U.S. Congress, bowing to law enforcement demands for more
   wiretap powers, is preparing to approve a scheme that endangers the
   personal freedom of every American.
   
        Nobody doubts that wiretaps are useful tools for law enforcement
   agents. FBI Director Louis Freeh, who as a young agent built his
   career on them, knows this well.
   
        But Freeh's plan would expand the FBI's eavesdropping ability by
   building Big Brother into every word processor, every e-mail program
   and every web browser. All computer software distributed after 1998
   would have a special, secret backdoor for government access to your
   most private files. Even your Internet provider would be deputized as
   a cyber-snoop. It's the technological equivalent of requiring that
   every homeowner turn over a spare copy of his front door key to the
   FBI.
   
        This is the same FBI that has a long and disturbing history of
   abusing Americans' privacy. As director, J. Edgar Hoover built a
   successful career out of illegal wiretaps, secret files and political
   blackmail. Hoover despised Martin Luther King, Jr. -- branding him an
   "obsessive degenerate" -- and once sent him an anonymous letter, using
   information gathered through illegal surveillance, to encourage the
   depressed civil rights leader to commit suicide. Hoover's legacy?
   Having the FBI headquarters bear his name today.

[...]






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep 10 16:00:14 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:00:14 +0800
Subject: Prayer to A.M. Turing
In-Reply-To: <3gDm3/KXXobGiEuuujWoNQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199709101148.MAA02175@server.test.net>




Alan Turing writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> >Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
> >collide:
> >
> >% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
> >collision: 0 bits
> >%
> 
> Add an "f".

Impressed:

% hashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51f
collision: 33 bits
%

That collision would take 30 hours to generate on my pentium.

Adam






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep 10 16:06:06 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:06:06 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709101229.NAA02196@server.test.net>




Declan McCullagh  writes:
> 
> I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
> electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
> suggested widespread civil disobedience. 

Might I suggest using RSA in perl:

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Perhaps it's time to dare the Feds to prosecute you. Any volunteers?

Naturally I'm no use ... but y'all could have some fun.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> How do you generate "chaos"?

If you're the FBI, you simply say you're gonna push laws to ban all non
escrowed crypto, and that causes imediate chaos on the cypherpunks lists.
You then get a bunch of SHA1 digests of the messages and you've got plenty
of random numbers. :-)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 10 16:17:18 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:17:18 +0800
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer
Message-ID: <199709101829.TAA03071@notatla.demon.co.uk>



Alex de Joode :

>  Do they own the trademark in the UK ? If not you can still use
>  Anonymizer for whatever service you are providing in the UK.


Don't know, don't care.  There was a Nice Thing To Do.

(Don't forget Lance Cottrell is connected with Infonex, and without
 him we wouldn't have mixmaster remailers to run.)


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 10 16:19:33 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:19:33 +0800
Subject: Building in Big Brother, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Forgot to say -- Check out the second half of my article (not attached, at
the URL below) for a look ahead at what other committees might do with
mandatory key escrow, based on my conversations with some pro-GAK
representatives.

-Declan


On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> ---
> 
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html
> 
> The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> September 10, 1997
> 
> Building in Big Brother
> By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
>   
>         The U.S. Congress, bowing to law enforcement demands for more
>    wiretap powers, is preparing to approve a scheme that endangers the
>    personal freedom of every American.
>    
>         Nobody doubts that wiretaps are useful tools for law enforcement
>    agents. FBI Director Louis Freeh, who as a young agent built his
>    career on them, knows this well.
>    
>         But Freeh's plan would expand the FBI's eavesdropping ability by
>    building Big Brother into every word processor, every e-mail program
>    and every web browser. All computer software distributed after 1998
>    would have a special, secret backdoor for government access to your
>    most private files. Even your Internet provider would be deputized as
>    a cyber-snoop. It's the technological equivalent of requiring that
>    every homeowner turn over a spare copy of his front door key to the
>    FBI.
>    
>         This is the same FBI that has a long and disturbing history of
>    abusing Americans' privacy. As director, J. Edgar Hoover built a
>    successful career out of illegal wiretaps, secret files and political
>    blackmail. Hoover despised Martin Luther King, Jr. -- branding him an
>    "obsessive degenerate" -- and once sent him an anonymous letter, using
>    information gathered through illegal surveillance, to encourage the
>    depressed civil rights leader to commit suicide. Hoover's legacy?
>    Having the FBI headquarters bear his name today.
> 
> [...]
> 
> 






From hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com  Thu Sep 11 07:24:57 1997
From: hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com (Hugh Daniel)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:24:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Message-ID: <199709111308.GAA10510@ecotone.xanadu.com>



What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, ???
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
        being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
        Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
        directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
        2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
        "cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
        (eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
        though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 






From welcome at welcome.firefly.com  Thu Sep 11 07:25:00 1997
From: welcome at welcome.firefly.com (Firefly)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:25:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Firefly Welcome
Message-ID: <199709091449.OAA05683@welcome.firefly.com>


-----------------
Welcome to Firefly:

Thank you for becoming a Firefly Passport holder and a member of our
community.

Every month we'll be updating you on what Firefly is up to and the latest
benefits of your Firefly Passport.  We'll even point out the people you can
meet and places you can experience in a way that is completely personalized
for you.

Here are September's highlights:

- BARNESANDNOBLE.COM goes live with personalized book recommendations.  Get
a SNEAK PREVIEW and your own recommendations at
.

- PERSONALIZATION WITH PRIVACY: Find out more about OPS, a standard for
supporting web privacy proposed by Firefly, Netscape, and Microsoft, in the
OPS resource center .

- TEST DRIVE new applications showcasing Firefly technology in the Studio
.

- CHECK OUT the latest news on our products at
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Sincerely,

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Director, Customer Support
Firefly






From JLuman at futuregate.com  Thu Sep 11 07:25:04 1997
From: JLuman at futuregate.com (Jon D. Luman)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Income Tax Reform
Message-ID: <97Sep10.060510-0400_edt.8391-10508+1@pyramid.request.net>


A great way to reform the Federal Income Tax is to file and start
enjoying your exempt status (you qualify if born in one of the 50 
states). Then, these taxes will no longer apply to you. If enough people 
exercised their right to their exempt status, the government would have
 to live within it's means.

Get details at:

http://FutureGate.com/tax_buster

...............................................

To be removed from future mailings, send to remove at futuregate,com with
Remove in the subject line.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep 10 16:27:06 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:27:06 +0800
Subject: New Forbes Article
In-Reply-To: <199709101910.MAA05051@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <7P3Tce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Mark Hedges  writes:

> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Mullen wrote:
> >There is a really good article in the new Forbes.  Many 
> >familiar names are mentioned...
> >
> >http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0908/6005172a.htm
> 
> It's a great article, but they said that Sameer authored and runs
> the Anonymizer. He ran it for a while, but Justin Boyan wrote the
> thing, and now we operate the server.
> 
> Mark Hedges
> Anonymizer Inc.
> 
> 

Have Sameer's lawyers send them a threatening letter.

Heck, have Sameer's lawyers send EVERYBODY a letter. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 16:29:52 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:29:52 +0800
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199709102305.BAA21969@basement.replay.com>



> I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
> for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
> name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.

  Generic terms can't be trademarked.

  Did they provide you with the UK or European trademark number? If not,
the claim likely is fraudulent.






From eff at dev.null  Wed Sep 10 16:30:53 1997
From: eff at dev.null (EFF)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:30:53 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Engineers]Fwd: Engineers
Message-ID: <3416EF4E.21C8@dev.null>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 1297
URL: 

From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep 10 16:41:32 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:41:32 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <199709101907.OAA08092@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <7k3Tce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



"William H. Geiger III"  writes:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <19970909130000.60003 at sequent.com>, on 09/09/97 
>    at 01:00 PM, Unicorn  said:
> 
> >Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
> >Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
> >produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
> >atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
> >relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
> >devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
> >perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.
> 
> >But what a dreadfull way to die...
> 
> 
> The US military during WWII had plans of doing just that in Europe to
> poison the crops and aid in the defeat of Germany. 
> 
> Luck for Europe this was never followed through.

Actually, the Germans were aware of the plans and indicated that
they'd kill the about 500K U.S. and British POWs if this happened.
(They treated the latter much better than they treated Polish
and Russian POWs, who were often summarily gassed.)
For the same reason the Germans and the Allies didn't use poison
gas in Europe during WW2, although both sides used it liberally
in WW1, and the Japanese used it a lot against the Chinese.
Game theory and stuff. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 16:46:51 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:46:51 +0800
Subject: Net Papa: Global Internet Taxes Inevitable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= wrote:

> >   GENEVA -- Internet taxes are inevitable, according to the man dubbed
> >   the "Father of the Net."
> 
> Funny thing to claim, given that the European Commission of all has
> already rejected Internet taxes half a year ago.

Bit taxes are inevitable. The European Commission has rejected new taxes
for now since doing so at the time generated a higher PR benefit than
could have been purchased from the tax revenue. That will change. The EU,
just as the USG, will change the tune before long. Understand that I am 
not saying that they will change their mind. They mind to establish a bit 
tax is already made up. Just as they had made up their mind years ago to 
ban any and all use of non-GAK crypto by private citizens. [It is against the
very nature of government to leave a revenue source untapped forever].

 
> Sure. Why are there no airbags in those datagrams, yet?

There will be airbags in datagrams. Or the equivalent of airbags. Thanks
to IP v6, authenticated datagrams can trivially be mandated. Naturally, 
authentication of datagrams will be mandated once the government is 
increasingly faced with the "negative" side effects of the Internet. 

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred






From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 10 16:49:03 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:49:03 +0800
Subject: Crypto-czar nominated for Commerce Dept undersecretary (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Crypto-czar nominated for Commerce Dept undersecretary


	Clinton Nominates Aaron to Commerce Department Post

	WASHINGTON, Sept. 8 /U.S. Newswire/ -- President Clinton today
announced his intent to nominate Ambassador David L. Aaron for the
position of Under Secretary for International Trade at the Department
of Commerce.
	Aaron, of Sag Harbor, N.Y., has extensive experience in both
national and international issues. Since 1993, he has served as U.S.
Ambassador to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and
Development (OECD). In 1996, the White House announced his
appointment as Special Envoy for Cryptography, giving him the
responsibility of promoting the growth of international electronic
commerce and robust, secure global communications in a manner that
protects the public safety and national security.
	In 1962, Aaron entered the Foreign Service where he served in a
variety of posts including NATO, the United Nations, and the
Strategic Arms talks. After leaving the Foreign Service, he continued
in government at the National Security Council, on the staff of Sen.
Walter Mondale, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and as
Deputy National Security Advisor to President Carter.
	Upon leaving government, Aaron became vice president for mergers
and acquisitions at Oppenheimer and Co. Prior to becoming
ambassador, he was a senior fellow at the Twentieth Century Fund,
served on the board of the National Democratic Institute and the
International League for Human Rights, and was a member of the
Overseas Development Council and the Council on Foreign Relations.
He is a recipient of the National Defense Medal, the Pentagon's
highest civilian award, and the author of three novels. Aaron is a
graduate of Occidental College and Princeton University.
	As head of the Commerce Department's International Trade
Administration, Aaron will be responsible for policies and programs
that promote world trade and strengthen the international trade and
investment position of the United States.








From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 10 16:50:13 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:50:13 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: 





	WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh today declared his
agency "in great shape" despite a recent spate of public relations
embarrassments and said he has no plans to step down from his job.
	Timothy McVeigh's conviction for the Oklahoma City bombing, the
capture of CIA shooting suspect Mir Aimal Kansi of Pakistan and other
recent successes have helped restore public confidence in the FBI, he told
reporters today.
	The agency's image has suffered in recent years in the wake of a
variety of controversies, including its conduct in the investigation of
the Atlanta Olympic bombing, allegations that its crime lab had mishandled
evidence and accusations that he had failed to fully brief the White House
on China's alleged efforts to contribute money to U.S. political
campaigns.
	"I think in large part that we're past it," Freeh said of the
FBI's public relations problems. "We will always be controversial. ... But
I think that how the FBI responds to those problems is what's important."
	In an April edition of Newsweek, an article quoted Freeh as saying
he had considered quitting his job.
	But today, Freeh said he may even serve out his 10-year term.
	"I'm staying on," he said. "I've got no current plans to leave."
	He also said the FBI is close to hiring a new assistant director
for the crime lab, choosing from a list of candidates that includes
"world-class scientists."
	He also said the FBI continues a vigorous investigation of a June
1996 bombing that killed 19 American airmen in Saudi Arabia, despite the
fact that Hani al-Sayegh, a Saudi dissident, had reneged on an agreement
to provide information on the case.
	"His reneging on that agreement is not a serious setback to our
own investigation," Freeh said.
	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
	"We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."






From loki at infonex.com  Wed Sep 10 17:17:03 1997
From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:17:03 +0800
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer
In-Reply-To: <199709092302.AAA05230@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: 



At 1:05 AM +0200 9/11/97, Anonymous wrote:
>> I am advised by Mark Hedges that Anonymizer, Inc. owns the trademark
>> for the product name "Anonymizer" and at his request I have changed
>> name of the tea remailer to 'Tea Remailer'.
>
>  Generic terms can't be trademarked.
>
>  Did they provide you with the UK or European trademark number? If not,
>the claim likely is fraudulent.

I really don't understand this reaction. We asked Antonomasia nicely to
rename his remailer. He very kindly agreed. The Trademark registration has
been filed, but not yet approved. It is a long process.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki at infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 10 17:27:44 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:27:44 +0800
Subject: Renaming TEA remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709110028.TAA13240@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:08:51 -0700
> From: Lance Cottrell 
> Subject: Re: Renaming TEA remailer

> I really don't understand this reaction. We asked Antonomasia nicely to
> rename his remailer. He very kindly agreed. The Trademark registration has
> been filed, but not yet approved. It is a long process.

Seems it is in his best interest to not change it. Not only does he get
notoriety but he weakens your trademark claim by demonstrating that you
don't use it exclusively and that it has a history preceeding your claims.

Also, since he has been so kind to work with you have you recompensed him
for his loss at your gain?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 10 17:27:49 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:27:49 +0800
Subject: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709110025.TAA13190@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: amp at pobox.com
> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:32:28 -0500
> Subject: Re: Removing Tyranny from Democracy (Part II), (fwd)

> You miss the point entirely. This is =not= supposed to be a democracy. That 
> is why we have a constitution (theoretically a set of restrictions upon the 
> powers of government), and bill of rights. 

This is most certainly a democracy, it's called a representative democracy.
That we have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights is a measure of the
founding fathers wisdom but by no means are either required to have a
democracy, nor do either by definition eliminate a governmental form from
being a democracy.

> > > 2. In a democracy, you can't have property rights because 51% can 
> > > capriciously decide to confiscate anyone's property.

That depends on how the founders define the democracy. The definition of a
democracy does NOT define the system put in place merely who has a say in
how it runs.

You're painting with way too broad a brush. Like most things simply being a
cat does not equate all cats to be the same. This also applies to
democracies, there is plenty of room to manuever when designing it.

> > Since there are no true democracies extant your point is moot.
>  
> There have been, that is why the point is not moot. The point is, we are 
> becoming one, with the advent of instant polling and politicians and 
> citizens who obviously can't read as simple a document as the constitution.

Where? When? No government ever implimented by man has ever been a true
anything. Not democracy, communism, etc. They are all hybrids of one sort or
another.

For there to be a true democracy as you seem to define it we would require
every man, woman, and child to carry a vote and be required to vote on each
and every issue. No government in history has had this much prosperity or
homogoneity in the desires of the people.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From 84903020 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 11 08:28:35 1997
From: 84903020 at ix.netcom.com (84903020 at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:28:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Here's  the info you requested
Message-ID: <19970908182053.load2391.in@don>




Everybody loves Mr. Chicken!



Kids are going wild over Mr. Chicken.  Parents laugh hysterically at the sight of him.
Why spend $50 on toys that your kids forget about the next day when for pennies
they can have a Mr Chicken that they'll enjoy for months?
For full details, Email MrChicken at answerme.com










From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 17:47:48 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:47:48 +0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: NIST AES Advanced Encryption System development effort
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910172718.006b75c4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



NIST is putting out a call for candidates for an Advanced Encryption System,
following work and comment periods earlier this year.
	http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/aes_home.htm
Symmetric block cypher, 128-bit blocks, keylengths 128, 192, 256.
No mention of escrow

>Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology
>	formerly National Bureau of Standards
>Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are those of the sender
>	and do not reflect NIST policy or agreement.
>Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:50:11 -0400
>To: foti at st1.ncsl.nist.gov
>From: Jim Foti 
>Subject: Update on AES development effort
>
>Folks,
>
>Please take a look at 
>for the AES call for candidate algorithms, which is expected to be
>published in the Federal Register on Friday, Sept. 12.
>
>As is indicated in the announcement, clarification questions should be
>directed to "aesquest at nist.gov".
>
>Once again, this "FYI" message is being sent to all of you who either
>registered for the April '97 workshop, attended that workshop, or provided
>comments on the original Federal Register notice in January.  We really
>appreciate your interest in this development effort.
>
>Regards,
>Jim Foti
>
>








From k.p at snet.net  Wed Sep 10 17:53:42 1997
From: k.p at snet.net (Dave K-P)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:53:42 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910202207.00691a90@mail.snet.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:28 PM 9/10/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
>sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
>manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
>supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
>	"We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
>was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
>to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
>believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."

	"Just following orders"... where have I heared that before?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNBc5jpFhuMM5a8j1AQHsDwf9EOLhb709d7DqaSZrvtn0wcE+ykdtXpZb
Ef354iJH96CrddW8oy/ENJ/KFe9jCBk62qrFaGyF99GUjkBDjMjvdshQAvCFOqP2
zEBGepjGc+sd5YgyB0wK5ZHWbVHN5V9gybaX0O0Ma2r0BFIAXynJ8k7KHF//EW2v
PI4ogRGA6zJKkpzRRjAsBYPj5y2FhJnFrgLdudKZba2EjzQY0BQgVF0dlpizCLIp
KvjsVreSYD8qTtT7wBHXOOq6gKWkrWRgQVZzlVFk55yoaTQeuszPNk7hx5loqEBW
HJpVpxKMOWMiZXGx8nojc21lPxmZcJtHKSg2fTyCt56yGAYRwuEiwg==
=CLgE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

9CC3 8D8B 9CA0 71EA
< k.p at snet.net >
AC7E A6F3 3A84 7BCA






From eff at dev.null  Wed Sep 10 17:58:16 1997
From: eff at dev.null (EFF)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:58:16 +0800
Subject: Arachelian wins Nobel Peace Prize
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <34173BF2.65BE@dev.null>



[EFF-Bienfait, Saskatchewan]
September 11, 1997

  RAY ARACHELIAN, a member of the soon-to-be-outlawed CypherPunks 
crypto-military organization was presented with a forged Nobel Peace 
Prize early this morning in recognition of providing proof for his long 
held Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos theorem.

  In response to a question by Russian double-secret agent Igor Chudov, 
who asked, "How do you generate 'chaos'?," Arachelian responded:
"If you're the FBI, you simply say you're gonna push laws to ban all 
non-escrowed crypto, and that causes imemdiate chaos on the cypherpunks 
lists. You then get a bunch of SHA1 digests of the messages and you've 
got plenty of random numbers. :-)"

  EFF decided to award Arachelian a forged Nobel Peace Prize, not for 
the originality of his idea, but for the fact that he had the audacity 
to steal the idea from fellow CypherPunk, Tim C. May, who would have 
suggested it in the 1989 CypherPunks archives, if the legendary mailing 
list had been operational at that time.
  The award was presented by a rather disheveled looking fellow who 
couldn't remember his name, but who told Arachelian, "I'm a very 
important man." before pausing to pick something out of his teeth, and 
continuing, with two raised fingers, "Peace."

  Asked for comment, Arachelian stated "I thought he'd never leave. Did 
you get a load of his _breath_? Whooeee!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 19:19:39 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:19:39 +0800
Subject: "Secure in one's papers" is becoming meaningless
In-Reply-To: <199709101603.KAA23312@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910182955.006c2a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:27 AM 9/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:37 AM -0700 9/10/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>>    NYT lead article today indicates Clinton bowing to LEOs to:
>>        ...gain broad access to patients' medical records, with hardly
>>        any restrictions on use or redisclosure of the data.
...
>Just routine developments in the latter stages of the American Imperial New
>World Order. Government can tie in to the networks of medical data as an
>aid to tracking citizen-units, as a means of ferreting out pseudonyms, and
>as a means of gathering dossier data. J. Edgar Hoover would have loved it.

Wonderful.  Medical records are great for this, because the need to 
coordinate with Medicare has pushed any insurace companies that didn't
use SSNs as an almost-unique key to use them.  (And realistically,
aside from a few SSA screwups, most non-uniqueness is a result of
the otherwise-undocumented pirating or making up numbers,
so who cares if the politically-well-connected insurance companies
don't cover them.)  And besides, it's necessary for the
Legitimate Needs of Law Enforcement, because sometimes they've
got to use dental records to identify bodies, however obtained.

....
>This is a very important issue. The "secure in one's papers and
>possessions" language of the 4th is practically meaningless in today's
>world: most of one's important papers and records are not stored locally in
>one's home.

....
>Expect within 10 years to see hotel and other such services required to
>have proof of True Names, and with such records linked to government
>computers on a nightly (or even realtime) basis.

European and some Ex-Colonial-World countries have done this for years;
foreigners get their passports borrowed to register with the police.
I suspect a number of US states have requirements like this as well,
based on the near-universality of being asked for a name, address, and
license plate number when registering.

>The main protection for this is _cash_. But an increasing number of places
>will not take cash. (Let's not get off on a tangent about what "legal
>tender" is; if Alice says she will only take credit cards or checks, then
>Bob is bound by this.)

Car rental places are especially big on this.  I was at the rental counter
waiting in line one day, and a 25-something and his grandfather/uncle/whatever
were trying to rent a car which the younger guy was going to drive across
country.
They refused him, because _he_ didn't have a credit card, even though his
elder relative did.  ("If you get caught driving this car, the police will
impound it and throw you in jail, and it'll be a lot of paperwork for us")
And another guy was trying to pay cash when returning a car that he and his
girlfriend had rented on her credit card the previous day, and getting
refused.
Of course, they also want to see your license.  

And we've ranted about airports here before.








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 19:25:08 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:25:08 +0800
Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910184123.00687218@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>Today I went to the local U-Haul to rent a small trailer to move a lawn
>tractor. In the course of filling out the rental agreement I was asked for
>my drivers license then asked for my social security number which I refused
>to give. (Texas does not have SSN on the driver's license) The agent then
>asked for a credit card, which I was planning to use to charge the rental.
>During the subsequent discussion the agent told me that since the Oklahoma
>bombing if they don't get a SSN they are required to to get a credit card
>number as a second form of identification. They can then get the SSN from
>the credit card issuer.
>Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul do
>with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
>when you use your credit card?

Did you ask if it was a U-Haul requirement or a Texas one?

If you've ever given your SSN when applying for a credit card,
you can be pretty sure they've got your SSN in the credit report.
Perhaps if you've got a secured debit card of some sort
you've been able to keep it separate from your other credit history,
if any, but most people have slipped at least once, or had an account
at a bank that collected the SSN for tax reasons and then included it
in credit reports.

What U-Haul actually does with it is probably just keeping the
credit card number on file, since actually doing a credit report
would cost them more money than they want to spend on you
unless you haven't returned the trailer or there's a big kaboom.
They may also sell the transaction record data they do have.






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 10 19:40:20 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:40:20 +0800
Subject: GAO's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithms
Message-ID: <199709110215.TAA27946@f51.hotmail.com>



Do you want Gao's chaos cryptosytem's thesis 
written in English ?
If you want it,Please send check or money order
of 50 dollar to me.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From shamrock at netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 19:50:00 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:50:00 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970910193916.007048ac@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 01:00 AM 9/10/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
>so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
>and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
>territory on K Street.

The obvious time for a unpacking a suitcase would be during a State of the
Union address. I trust you watch those from home?


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From frantz at netcom.com  Wed Sep 10 20:23:52 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:23:52 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: 



At 1:40 PM -0700 9/10/97, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly
>what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>
>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no
>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any
>volunteers?

You can send me a message.  My key is on the servers.

Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
pub   768/C2CD3FB5 1994/12/28 Bill Frantz 
          Key fingerprint =  4F 9B 8C F1 3A 92 31 B6  8E BB AC FA 57 0B FE 59

Regards - Bill


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From whgiii at amaranth.com  Wed Sep 10 20:47:29 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:47:29 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <7k3Tce1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199709110331.WAA02912@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <7k3Tce1w165w at bwalk.dm.com>, on 09/10/97 
   at 04:54 PM, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>"William H. Geiger III"  writes:

>> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> In <19970909130000.60003 at sequent.com>, on 09/09/97 
>>    at 01:00 PM, Unicorn  said:
>> 
>> >Destruction by a  nuclear blast is most likely not  even the issue here.
>> >Using a  relatively small amount  of plutonium  (ie. not even  enough to
>> >produce a  critical mass) and enough  explosives to blast this  into the
>> >atmosphere  you  can  kill  a  (very) large  number  of  people  over  a
>> >relatively  small amount  of  time due  to  plutonium toxication.  These
>> >devices are the real "dirty  gadgets", not really expensive and therefor
>> >perfectly suitable for terrorist organisations.
>> 
>> >But what a dreadfull way to die...
>> 
>> 
>> The US military during WWII had plans of doing just that in Europe to
>> poison the crops and aid in the defeat of Germany. 
>> 
>> Luck for Europe this was never followed through.

>Actually, the Germans were aware of the plans and indicated that they'd
>kill the about 500K U.S. and British POWs if this happened. (They treated
>the latter much better than they treated Polish and Russian POWs, who
>were often summarily gassed.)
>For the same reason the Germans and the Allies didn't use poison gas in
>Europe during WW2, although both sides used it liberally in WW1, and the
>Japanese used it a lot against the Chinese. Game theory and stuff. :-)

Well part of the problem with using chemical agents is they are not very
efficient. This is a lesson that was learned in WWI and most likely was
the largest factor in them not being used durring WWII (durring WWI one
was just as likely to be hit by one's own gas as the enemy was).

It is even questionable as a terror weapon against civilian targets due to
the quantities that would be needed to attack a large city like London.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From fmouse at fmp.com  Wed Sep 10 20:58:00 1997
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:58:00 +0800
Subject: Credit Card might-as-well-equal SSN (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709110235.VAA13771@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970910223940.008e0100@linux.fmp.com>



I was under the impression that using a SSN for identification purposes was
illegal.  A while back I went to a company that rented sound equipment to
pick up some equipment for a job, and was asked for my SSN as part of my
credit application.  I told them that I believed that it was illegal to
require an SSN and they said, in effect, if you want to rent from us, you
have to give us your SSN.  

When I got home, I called the Social Security Administration office in
Austin and after being bounced around among lots of people who knew
absolutely nothing about the subject, I finally reached someone who
informed me that this practice is perfectly legal as long as you're not
>required< to give your SSN.  Since I didn't, in theory, have to do
business with these folks, they therefore apparently had every right to
require my SSN as a condition of doing business with them.  In point of
fact, when the incident occurred, it was getting late, I had to have the
equipment for my job, and so I gave them what they wanted.

At 09:35 PM 9/10/97 -0500, Jim Choate did speak as follows....
>>Questions: Is this for real?  How wide spread is this?  What does U-Haul
do
>>with your SSN? How difficult is it for someone (company) to get your SSN
>>when you use your credit card?
>
>Did you ask if it was a U-Haul requirement or a Texas one?
>
>If you've ever given your SSN when applying for a credit card,
>you can be pretty sure they've got your SSN in the credit report.
>Perhaps if you've got a secured debit card of some sort
>you've been able to keep it separate from your other credit history,
>if any, but most people have slipped at least once, or had an account
>at a bank that collected the SSN for tax reasons and then included it
>in credit reports.

Lindsay Haisley                   (______)
FMP Computer Services               (oo)        "The bull 
fmouse at fmp.com                /------\/            stops here!"
Austin, Texas, USA           / |    ||  
512-259-1190                *  ||---||             * * * * * *
                               ~~   ~~        http://www.fmp.com






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Sep 10 21:12:26 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:12:26 +0800
Subject: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709110406.XAA00536@smoke.suba.com>



(sorry, running behind on mail)

> (Many think this is as it should be. But why is this so? We don't require
> non-doctors and non-shrinks to report such threats. If Joe Cypherpunk tells
> me at a Cypherpunks meeting he thinks Janet Reno should be blown up on her
> September 7th visit to San Jose, I am under no obligation whatsoever to
> assist the police in verifying what his real intentions are, or of
> cooperating in any way. So why should a psychiatrist become a secret agent
> for the State? We live in a police state.)

	Actually, if you think the person _will_ do it, I believe you
are legally obligated to report. 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Wed Sep 10 21:26:35 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:26:35 +0800
Subject: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)
In-Reply-To: <19970829013540.13855@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199709110414.XAA00563@smoke.suba.com>



> On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 06:17:09PM -0500, snow wrote:
> [...]
> > 	There is also a clear difference between shooting a guy carrying 
> > your stereo out of the house, and a guy who probably carried a stereo out 
> > of the house. 
> Anyone can construct scenarios where the distinction is as fuzzy as
> you please -- eg -- your best friend is getting you a new stereo for
> your birthday, and is arranging a surprise. 

	Yeah, and most people are pretty good at figuring these things out.
If you saw your best friend carrying your stereo out of your house, you'd
wonder why, but you wouldn't shoot him. 

> Ambiguous situations are a ubiquitous feature of reality.  You may 
> think in black in white, but the world is not only many shades of 
> gray -- it's a parade of color.

	Nope. Black and white. White is _all_ colors. Black is none. Any
grey you see is a failure of resolution. 

> The fundamental problem is that people are different, and have

s/different/stupid/g.

> different moral values.  Some people think that murder is wrong under

	Anyone who could think clearly would say that _murder_ is wrong. 

	Distingushing murder from killing is the problem. 

> any circumstances.  Others think it is all right to kill in
> "self-defense" (whatever that means).  Some people think it is

	It means you wack the other fucker before he wacks you. It means 
you prevent damage to yourself, people you care about, and the shit that 
belongs to you and them. 

> > 	Well, the current system stinks, but enough people are buffalo'd into
> > thinking that it works, so it is doubtful that it will get better.
> People are not "buffalo'd" -- they are happy with a system that gives 
> them a good life.  Therefore, it has to get worse before it gets 
> better.  

	Crap. If anyone is happy with this system, they are either on the
top, or not paying attention. 

> > If on the 
> > otherhand the system ceased to exist, maybe it could be improved.
> Ah yes -- libertopia.

	We're fucked as it is. It wouldn't be much worse. 






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep 10 21:42:23 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:42:23 +0800
Subject: Nuclear Hedge Funds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970910193916.007048ac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5mLuce16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Lucky Green  writes:

>
> At 01:00 AM 9/10/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >That's hardly comforting (not sure if it was meant to be). I work four or
> >so blocks from the White House and spend a good bit of time in the Capitol
> >and related buildings. My office is in the densepack lobbyist warren
> >territory on K Street.
>
> The obvious time for a unpacking a suitcase would be during a State of the
> Union address. I trust you watch those from home?

Where is the vice president usually during the state of the union address?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From enoch at zipcon.net  Wed Sep 10 22:33:45 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:33:45 +0800
Subject: Snuffle Destroys United States: Film at 11
Message-ID: <19970911052038.32149.qmail@zipcon.net>



John Gilmore  writes:

 > Today the Government filed a 22-page brief arguing to the
 > 9th Circuit Court that it would be so injurious to the
 > national security for Prof. Bernstein to be able to publish
 > his Snuffle 5.0 software on the Internet, that a complete
 > stay of Judge Patel's injunction is needed.

 > The brief is accompanied by two seven-page personal
 > declarations, one from William P. Crowell, Deputy Director
 > of NSA, and one from William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary for
 > Export Administration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "Snuffle" was some
simple-minded cipher designed to test ITAR.  I didn't think it
was something anyone would choose to incorporate into a serious
product.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From somebody at somewhere.com  Thu Sep 11 13:40:04 1997
From: somebody at somewhere.com (somebody at somewhere.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New Member Registration
Message-ID: <199709112115.QAA03585@fs1.sccsi.com>


A Message From Mr. T
Account Login: killer
Account Password: instinct
This message has been auto-generated - No need to reply






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 10 22:40:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:40:56 +0800
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199709110523.HAA03897@basement.replay.com>



Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.

     _  o
    |<)_/# Timmy May
    TT  


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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 10 23:19:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:19:22 +0800
Subject: Shrinks as Narcs for the State
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:06 PM -0700 9/10/97, snow wrote:
>(sorry, running behind on mail)
>
>> (Many think this is as it should be. But why is this so? We don't require
>> non-doctors and non-shrinks to report such threats. If Joe Cypherpunk tells
>> me at a Cypherpunks meeting he thinks Janet Reno should be blown up on her
>> September 7th visit to San Jose, I am under no obligation whatsoever to
>> assist the police in verifying what his real intentions are, or of
>> cooperating in any way. So why should a psychiatrist become a secret agent
>> for the State? We live in a police state.)
>
>	Actually, if you think the person _will_ do it, I believe you
>are legally obligated to report.

Care to cite a law, or even venture a guess as to which law might cover this?

Unless one is a party to the crime, as in "aiding and abetting," there is
no such requirement. Tarasoff applied a reporting requirement to shrinks
that ordinary persons did not have to worry about.

The "shooting Reno" example is really no different (*) from other crimes,
e.g., seeing bootleg videotaping in one's neighbor's garage, learning of a
bank robbery to be committed, etc. No laws require citizens to inform the
police.

(* The potential exception involves things like "depraved indifference," a
vague notion that if one does nothing while someone dies....)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 10 23:31:36 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:31:36 +0800
Subject: Radioactive RNG & tracking systems...
Message-ID: <199709110550.AAA14480@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

A friend of mine has been working on a radioactive RNG and while playing
with it a potentialy interesting application came to mind. In short, by
placing radioactive RNG's in some sort of grid across an area it becomes
possible to track radioactive sources by comparing the magnitude of a
correlation function between them.

This could be extended to include just about any kind of RNG that is
sensitive to some environmental factor, say air pressure or magnetic
intensity...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From bubba at dev.null  Thu Sep 11 00:26:11 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:26:11 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 4 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3417988D.6FC9@dev.null>

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From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Sep 11 00:32:26 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:32:26 +0800
Subject: Mondex
In-Reply-To: <199709110523.HAA03897@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.
> 
>      _  o
>     |<)_/# Timmy May
>     TT   

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email :  : 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From emailing at tnlb.com  Thu Sep 11 16:59:16 1997
From: emailing at tnlb.com (emailing at tnlb.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A Message For You
Message-ID: <199709112131.PAA14635@replicator.tnlb.com>


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From stevey at webmedia.com  Thu Sep 11 04:36:59 1997
From: stevey at webmedia.com (Steve Mynott)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:36:59 +0800
Subject: Netscape browser crypto
Message-ID: <3417D3FD.7EE214DC@webmedia.com>

I notice Netscape 4 has support for "cryptographical modules" and comes
with PKCS#11 module.  Are there any third party modules (PGP?)
available?

Also is it possible to import certificates (PGP?) into the browser so
you aren't stuck with Verisign et al. 

-- 
Steve Mynott, work: http://webmedia.com/ +44 171 317 1341         ---- 
strange: http://machine-elves.com/    mobile: 0956 265761        | \_|_\
pegwit v8 public key = \                                         |_|_| |
cbecf90546ea12b28de9e6fdbb956ee8cf83bbcd63726a93643f44a474acdfb9  \|__\|
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From wathab at tiac.net  Thu Sep 11 06:52:18 1997
From: wathab at tiac.net (Hiawatha Bray)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:52:18 +0800
Subject: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
Message-ID: <01BCBE97.530050C0.wathab@tiac.net>



What a cool idea!  Why didn't I think of that?  

Hiawatha

On Thursday, September 11, 1997 9:41 AM, Arnold G. Reinhold [SMTP:reinhold at world.std.com] wrote:

> 
> Hiawatha, I enjoyed your column (Boston Globe Business Section Sept. 11),
> but why don't you announce that you have a PGP key, print it's signature in
> a column and ask people to use it to send you news tips? This would enable
> a freedom of the press challange to GAK.
> 
> >Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no
> >pedophile...;-)
> >So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any
> >volunteers?
> 
> Count me in. My PGP key is available from my home page
> http://world.std.com/~reinhold and the servers and its signature is printed
> in E-mail for Dummies, 2nd Edition, page 232. People are invited to send me
> ideas and tips via encrypted mail for future books.
> 
> 






From reinhold at world.std.com  Thu Sep 11 07:00:41 1997
From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:00:41 +0800
Subject: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Hiawatha Bray  of the Boston Globe wrote:
>
>I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly
>what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>

Hiawatha, I enjoyed your column (Boston Globe Business Section Sept. 11),
but why don't you announce that you have a PGP key, print it's signature in
a column and ask people to use it to send you news tips? This would enable
a freedom of the press challange to GAK.

>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no
>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any
>volunteers?

Count me in. My PGP key is available from my home page
http://world.std.com/~reinhold and the servers and its signature is printed
in E-mail for Dummies, 2nd Edition, page 232. People are invited to send me
ideas and tips via encrypted mail for future books.







From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep 11 07:05:38 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:05:38 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: 



Declan McCullagh writes:

>       The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
> sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
> manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
> supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
>       "We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
> was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
> to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
> believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."

It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?

Horiuchi's defense is really no different than Timothy
McVeigh's: "yes, it was a mistake but he felt it was justified and
reasonably believed at the time that what he was doing was proper..."
Too bad McVeigh didn't have a badge saying FBI on it.

        






From 90645164 at juno.com  Thu Sep 11 23:10:44 1997
From: 90645164 at juno.com (90645164 at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:10:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make Money right now
Message-ID: <515453254123.CAA32523@asdfsfdsdf.com>


This is a one time mailing, if you want to be removed from our list, do not reply to this add and we will never mail to you again.
Dear Friend,

Before you delete this letter from your mailbox, please take a moment to 
read over the enclosed program and... REALLY THINK ABOUT IT!

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at 
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.  After 
unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the 
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business 
and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against 
my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was wrong 
for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in
my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change
 your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY...!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to receiving 
this program I had been sending away for information on various business 
opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  
They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million 
dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

Initially I sent out 100,000 emails.  It only cost me about $80.00 for my hiring of a 
bulk e-mail company. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for 
printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like 
it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "cheat" 
anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.  By January 
13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in 
the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT 
#1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU 
DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 90 to 120 days was done.  By January 30th, 
I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU 
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF
NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, 
THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 
orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 
19th, of my emailing of 100,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.  
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  

Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!  
Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you must follow 
it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  
It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot  of money!  REPORT #2 explains this.  Always 
follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for 
REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF 
THAT IT WORKS !!!  If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really 
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to participate, follow 
the program instructions and you will be on your way to financial security.

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson


"THREW IT AWAY"
I had received this program before.  I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have 
given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I 
was emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T 
throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try.

Dawn W., Evansville, IN


"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to finally make up my mind to 
participate in this program.  I decided that the initial investment was so little that there 
was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least make back what I had invested.  
BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with 
orders!  Any doubts you may have will vanish when your first orders come in.  
THIS PROGRAM WORKS!!!

Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you 
and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing
receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.  Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing
with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response, that is only 10 
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a 
total of 20,000.  Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail 
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for 
REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% 
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. 
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of 
$55,550....!!!!   

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL 
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT 
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 
ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is 
practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet connection and email is FREE!!!  
REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. 


INSTRUCTIONS

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

STEP (1)   Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the 
REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send 
$5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person
listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  
It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person 
you are ordering from.  You  will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING 
and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

STEP (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours,  moving the one 
that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT 
#3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and address that was under REPORT 
#4 is dropped from the list and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing this, 
make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own 
directory to be used with whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists.

STEP (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address 
you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take 
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, 
more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email 
addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very 
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $80.00. One of the reports will tell you where to get this deal 
from.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, 
NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the (4) REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***  Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME  ***

ALWAYS: SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER, 
REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

____________________________________________________________

REPORT #1: "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

DDTFM Marketing
2232 S Main #392
Ann Arbor, MI 48103
USA

____________________________________________________________

REPORT #2: "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

WayDen Enterprises, Inc.
P.O. Box 73
Waukesha, WI  53187-0073
USA

____________________________________________________________

REPORT #3: "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Blackhawk Marketing
P.O. Box 523
Warrenville, IL 60555
USA

______________________________________________________

REPORT #4: "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Leet Marketing   
PO Box 3834
Flagstaff,  AZ   86003-3834  
USA

____________________________________________________________


CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be 
making money in 90 to 120 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this 
mailing.  However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than 
"YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing 
opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special 
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this 
information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply. 

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies
to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who 
participates WILL make money.  This is not a chain letter or pyramid scheme.  
At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith,
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal,
but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product 
from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned 
from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS 
REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in 
making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you 
in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the 
rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom 
you mail this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying 
can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. 
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four (4) REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the 
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the 
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18, Sections 
1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE 
EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, 
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move 
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive
the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more 
you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the four (4) REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as
you receive an order.  IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE 
ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must 
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within 
two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks 
later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, 
send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more 
orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax,  
because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it 
is a proven guarantee.   Of  those who have participated in the program and 
reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, 
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a 
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what 
people are ordering from you.  IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS...!!!




******************************************










































This is a one time mailing, if you want to be removed from our list, do not reply to this add and we will never mail to you again.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 08:23:46 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:23:46 +0800
Subject: THE COSMOS THE UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <199709111458.QAA24982@basement.replay.com>



The question is not: "Is this guy getting good Acid?"

The question is: "Did he bring enough for *everybody*?"

RBL at cosmos.com wrote:
> 
> E=MC  The equation for the atom bomb. It says that matter and energy are the
> same thing. So then what is that? Matter, look at a brick. Its in a three dimensional
> form. Its made of electrons,  protons and neutrons (atoms) and they are moving so
> the brick is moving. Energy, sunlight. Its in a three dimensional form. It comes to us
> from the sun therefore it is moving. 3D and moving Both matter and energy are 3D
> and moving. I outproduce Einstein. We already know all matter has gravity. The
> bending of light shows that energy has gravity also. So matter and energy are
> 3D moving with gravity. The universe is made of matter, energy, time and space.
> That just stated is the matter and energy part. Time and space. Take everything
> in the universe and stop it. Does time progress? No. Therefore time is the motion
> and the understanding of all the motion is the understanding of all of time.
> Space, it ends. Space does not go on forever. Space is in a three dimensional
> form. It moves but does not have gravity. Space moves like this.   O  /\  +  \/  O
> And that is the understanding of all of time.
>    O   This is what was first in the beginning.
>    /\  This is the old kings and queens.
>    +   This is democracy.
>    \/  This is socialism.
>    O   This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
> And that is the understanding of the universe.  Glory be to the Father the Son
> and the Holy Ghost. Revelation chapter 10 & 11; 15-19. It is very important the
> people receive this information. You may tell someone about this.
>                                                  Thank You
>                                                Robert Lavelle






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Sep 11 09:08:21 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:08:21 +0800
Subject: THE COSMOS THE UNIVERSE
In-Reply-To: <199709111458.QAA24982@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709111554.KAA09600@mailhub.amaranth.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This was almost as much fun as Farikan's Number Theroy. ROTFLMAO!!! :)


In <199709111458.QAA24982 at basement.replay.com>, on 09/11/97 
   at 04:58 PM, nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>The question is not: "Is this guy getting good Acid?"

>The question is: "Did he bring enough for *everybody*?"

>RBL at cosmos.com wrote:
>> 
>> E=MC  The equation for the atom bomb. It says that matter and energy are the
>> same thing. So then what is that? Matter, look at a brick. Its in a three dimensional
>> form. Its made of electrons,  protons and neutrons (atoms) and they are moving so
>> the brick is moving. Energy, sunlight. Its in a three dimensional form. It comes to us
>> from the sun therefore it is moving. 3D and moving Both matter and energy are 3D
>> and moving. I outproduce Einstein. We already know all matter has gravity. The
>> bending of light shows that energy has gravity also. So matter and energy are
>> 3D moving with gravity. The universe is made of matter, energy, time and space.
>> That just stated is the matter and energy part. Time and space. Take everything
>> in the universe and stop it. Does time progress? No. Therefore time is the motion
>> and the understanding of all the motion is the understanding of all of time.
>> Space, it ends. Space does not go on forever. Space is in a three dimensional
>> form. It moves but does not have gravity. Space moves like this.   O  /\  +  \/  O
>> And that is the understanding of all of time.
>>    O   This is what was first in the beginning.
>>    /\  This is the old kings and queens.
>>    +   This is democracy.
>>    \/  This is socialism.
>>    O   This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns.
>> And that is the understanding of the universe.  Glory be to the Father the Son
>> and the Holy Ghost. Revelation chapter 10 & 11; 15-19. It is very important the
>> people receive this information. You may tell someone about this.
>>                                                  Thank You
>>                                                Robert Lavelle

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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From zooko at xs4all.nl  Thu Sep 11 09:20:53 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:20:53 +0800
Subject: Dear Scott Adams: I hear you need a fresh target...
Message-ID: <199709111556.RAA00342@xs1.xs4all.nl>




You could do the world a favor by making fun of recent
GAK (Government Accesst to Keys) proposals which are
currently circulating in the organs of power under
newspeak names like "key escrow" and "key recovery".


Also, it's an easy target, and a big issue with a lot
of your techie readers.


Have some leader on television announce that henceforth
all e-mail will be scanned by federal investigatory 
gremlins in the name of public safety, but never fear!!
For your privacy will be PERSONALLY GUARANTEED by the
new Privacy Czar...





Catbert!



Or Dogbert.  Or Ratbert, heck.  Or Bob!  Lots of your 
characters make good government leaders.


:-)


Thanks!


Zooko, Journeyman Wizard

P.S.  I think I'll Cc: this to the cypherpunks.  No 
doubt they will hack your account and send you death 
threats and make me regret it, but heck, maybe you can 
get some good mileage out of making fun of THEM, too.







From zooko at xs4all.nl  Thu Sep 11 09:26:59 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:26:59 +0800
Subject: How to use PGP without wasting your time
Message-ID: <199709111559.RAA00536@xs1.xs4all.nl>



The trick is:

1. don't go overboard with security.  For example, I sometimes
use PGP keys without passphrases.  This is secure _enough_ for
my more innocuous messages, and it is a lot more convenient.

2. get a scriptable/configurable e-mail agent which you can
train (or have me or some cypherpunk train) to do PGP for you 
automagically.


Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Cryptorebel






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Thu Sep 11 09:27:05 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:27:05 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709111616.SAA13376@xs2.xs4all.nl>




 Anonymous  mumbled:
>
> It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
> woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
> the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
> proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?
> 
> Horiuchi's defense is really no different than Timothy
> McVeigh's: "yes, it was a mistake but he felt it was justified and
> reasonably believed at the time that what he was doing was proper..."
> Too bad McVeigh didn't have a badge saying FBI on it.


Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper, 
and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed 
husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details) 
before hitting the victim.


You could more reasonably blame the husband for having the 
stupidity or carelessness to get in a firefight with his wife 
and child in the building.


More generally, don't buy any of the spin that anonymous 
cypherpunks (and plenty of named ones) like to put on such 
stories without reading the more balanced accounts yourself.
Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper 
Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler.  Anonymous 
is no different from hatemongering pamphleteers and propaganda 
ministers in any penny-ante revolution or Orwellian minitru.  
Perhaps he's on the side of the good guys, but his tactics 
have the same stink that I recognize from reading the 
propaganda blurbs of the bad guys.



Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Engineer






From doorlist at doors.com  Fri Sep 12 01:32:08 1997
From: doorlist at doors.com (doorlist at doors.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:32:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Doors Collectors Magazine
Message-ID: <199709120834.CAA04986@pure.fiber.net>


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Welcome to the first issue of The Doors Collectors Magazine's Strange Days Email Newsletter sent out free to our on-line Doors friends. We don't believe in spamming so if you have received this newsletter in error, please send a return email to doorlist at doors.com  with the word "remove" in the subject line and your name will be blocked from any future issues of our email newsletters.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

             STRANGE DAYS HAVE FOUND YOU!

After eight years of printing paper copies of The Doors Newsletter we're now adapting to this new digital format.  Since it's hard to email bulky visuals of what we're talking about, we've set up several web pages that have more information about certain topics. If something strikes you as interesting, by all means check out the pages!  Many of these web pages will not be connected to the rest of our web site and will remain exclusive only for those members of our email list. To fond out more about this list, go to:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays

We will continue our periodic (snail-mail) mailings which go out to all Doors fans on our mail list, but now that it's not a 3 week job to get these newsletters sent out we're hoping we can keep everyone more up-to-date.

Contents of this issue (not in order of importance)
      1.  Wild Child: Life With Jim Morrison  
          (A new book)
      2.  The Doors Box Set   (Finally!)
      3.  A Conversation With Jim Morrison  (New CD)
      4.  The Doors Museum  (A very RARE poster!)
      5.  The Doors Madison Square Garden '69  
          (New cassette tape)
      6.  The Doors Original Equipment  (For Sale?!)

1.  *********  "WILD CHILD"  BY LINDA ASHCROFT
    *******************************************

A new book was recently released in the UK called "Wild Child: Life with Jim Morrison" by Linda Ashcroft  (�17.99).  Strangely enough days after copies hit the shelves, they were pulled! Those of us in the States don�t have too much of a chance of getting these first editions since right now all the UK copies have either been pulled or sold.  You lucky people in Australia still have a chance of getting your copies though!  But be quick about it because they *will* be pulled there, too!  If any of you have any extra first edition copies (August �97) that you would like to sell please shoot me an email! I�m interested! 

So, what's the book about?  I talked to Linda and this is what she had to say:

"Wild Child: Life With Jim Morrison" invites you to run with Jim Morrison and me from the summer of 1967 until three days before his death in �71. Drawn from the pages of "Jim said" and "I said" that made it to my diary from the time, "Wild Child" often simply lets Jim speak for himself.  Before he left for Paris Jim told me, "It may have been in bits and pieces, but I gave you the best of me." Jim teased I was the ballast in his life; a "Horse Latitudes" joke.  May "Wild Child" provide ballast for his memories.

I guess when you ask authors for quotes, advertisements are what you get *But* I�m here to tell you more, so crank on the first Doors� CD, song #7 is a good place to start, and listen up:  

This book is a biographical account of a young girl (15 years old) and her experiences with Morrison. Although she admits that, while they never had sex, the two were going to be married when Jim returned home from Paris. They even had their rings picked out at one point.  Whether or not this book has any merit remains to be seen (I haven't got a copy yet), but one thing remains sure... due to what the publishers are calling an "editing error"...the books are not on the shelves in England anymore and are almost impossible to find which makes these first editions instant collectibles.

James Langton (London Telegraph) asked me to help him research an article for their paper. I obliged, only to be repaid by his mis-quoting the name of our magazine in the Telegraph article. (Sorry James, but I hope the rest of your article was more accurate;-) James felt very skeptical about the book because he had an impossible time finding *anyone* to back up the author�s seemingly unsubstantiated claims.... In fact, he�s still looking. And I'm told that one only has to read the first 40 pages or so to realize why the book was pulled from the shelves.

Whether or not the book's claims are true, *my* only claim (so far) is that these first editions from August 1997 will be worth their weight in gold, not just because of the controversial claims, but also because of the books' limited availability ...and that's a lot of gold considering this is a 549 page book!  What about the second issues?  We�ll have to get back to you on this one.


2.  *********************  THE DOORS BOX SET
    *********************************************

It's all over! The Wait is Over!  October 28th, 1997 is the release date! The three remaining Doors were spotted in the studio last Friday finishing up some loose ends on the musical background for "Orange County Suite." Doors fans have waited a long time for the box set's release, but finally the wait will be over.  A set list given by the band to Ice Magazine says the box set will look like this: 

CD 1
           Five to One, Miami 1969
           Queen of the Highway,1969 demo
           Hyacinth House, demo
           Who Scared You, b-side to Wishful Sinful
           Black Train Song, Philadelphia 1970
           Whiskey, Mystics and Men, Morrison Hotel 
           outtake
           I Will Never Be Untrue, LA 1970
           My Eyes Have Seen You, 1965 demo
           End of the Night, 1965 demo
           Moonlight Drive, 1965 demo
           Rock is Dead, 1969 studio jam
           Albinoni, 1969 symphonic piece

CD 2  Live in New York 1/70
           Roadhouse Blues
           Ship of Fools
           Peace Frog/Blue Sunday
           Celebration of the Lizard
           Gloria
           Crawling King Snake
           Money
           Poontang Blues/Build Me a Woman/
           Sunday Trucker
           The End

CD 3
           Hello to the Cities, composite track
           Break On Through, Isle of Wight 1970
           Rock Me, Vancouver 1970
           Money, Vancouver 1970
           Someday Soon, Seattle 1970
           Go Insane, 1965 demo
           Mental Floss, LA 1970
           Summer's Almost Gone, 1965 demo
           Adolph Hitler, Boston 1970
           Hello I Love You, 1965 demo
           Crystal Ship, San Francisco 1967
           I Can't See Your Face in My Mind, SF 1967
           Soft Parade, PBS 1970
           Tightrope Ride, OV released version
           Orange County Suite, 1970
           
CD 4  Band Favorites
          Densmore's picks: 
             Love Me Two Times/Riders on the Storm/
             When the Music's Over/Unknown Soldier/
             Wild Child
          Manzarek's picks: 
             I Can't See Your Face in My Mind/
             Land Ho!/Shaman's Blues/
             Yes, the River Knows/You're Lost Little 
             Girl
          Krieger's picks: 
             LA Woman/Light My Fire/Peace Frog/
             Take It As It Comes/Wishful Sinful
           
All tracks on CD 4 are the released versions. The track order may differ from what is listed here, but the other three CDs are supposedly correct. 

My personal feeling is that there will be a few surprises on the box set, too. But I guess we'll have to wait and see... Hopefully one of the surprises will be "Paris Blues"?  or maybe even some words from Morrison himself ?!


3.  ********  A CONVERSATION WITH JIM MORRISON
    *******************************************

A new compact disc is now out with a previously unpublished interview with Jim Morrison conducted by Ben Fong-Torres of Rolling Stone Magazine in February of 1970.  Doors historians will note this is right before Jim left for Paris. The 74-minute interview is brilliant. Finally we hear an interview by a professional journalist with some excellent questions!  As a bonus, we hear Pamela Courson answer a few questions as she entered the apartment where the interview was being conducted.

Unlike many European CDs that have been released recently, this one has a quality interview and some seriously delightful insights instead of sad disappointments.  

This is the first time I've ever heard the voice of Pamela in an interview, and what a great interview to hear it on! Definitely a CD that is not to be missed! For more information and a list of topics that are covered in the CD, please check out:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays/LPs_CDs/ben-fong.html


4.  *************  THE DOORS COLLECTOR'S MUSEUM
    **********************************************

Ever since The Doors asked our magazine to host a Doors memorabilia review on their video laser disc set, "The Doors Collection"  I've wanted to do a series of web pages on this same topic.  This section will feature both collectibles that are for sale and those that have recently been sold. While our printed magazine features an Auction Review in each issue, this web section will feature underground items that have been bought and sold between collectors. This will give Doors fans the opportunity to see many collectibles that they wouldn't be able to see any other way.

We tried to get this section finished in time for this bulletin, but were unable to get the html finished up for most of the items.  Keep checking http://www.doors.com for the latest news about this section!  We do have atleast one web page completed for this list - it is of a very rare collectible that thus far remains unsold. It is...

The Doors very own commercial poster privately printed in August 1968 and sold at two concerts.  They must've sold a million, you say!  No, it was a financial flop.  While artistically designed by Jim Morrison and Paul Ferrara, the poster proved to be cumbersome and very impractical to market. Ray Manzarek himself explains why in his hand written letter of authenticity that accompanies the poster.  Ray estimates that only about 300 of these posters were actually sold making it one of the rarest Doors posters there is!  For more details (Ray�s letter in particular) check out:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays/museum/poster.html

5.  **********  NEW DOORS "LIVE" TAPES AVAILABLE
    ********************************************

As already reported in The Doors Collectors Magazine #9 a better than average audience recording of The Doors Madison Square Garden show from  January 24, 1969 has found its way out of the box it sat in for the last 28 years and is available on our trade list. Our copy comes from a DAT of a first generation tape...it doesn't get much better than this! This historic show was a sold out performance to over 20,000 fans!  The Doors had a horn section on stage to augment all the Soft Parade album songs that they performed that night.  Definitely a Doors performance at the pinnacle of their career like no other tape around!  For more on the MSG show be sure to check out the Strange Days home page for a very interesting article written by Bill Tikellis that is jam packed full of details
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays

6.  *****  THE DOORS ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT FOR SALE
    ********************************************

The Doors Collectors Magazine has been commissioned to sell The Doors� original concert equipment including the only gold microphone that Jim Morrison ever used despite what they say at the Rock n� Roll Hall of Fame! (But that�s another story for our magazine...) These lots aren�t exactly for the everyday collector but if you�re as big a Doors nut as I am, you might want to stop by and take a look around at:
	http://www.doors.com/StrangeDays/museum/equipment.html



	THIS IS THE END MY FRIEND... TILL NEXT TIME!

Kerry
kerry at doors.com








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 10:33:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:33:24 +0800
Subject: Bullshit! / Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709111703.TAA07565@basement.replay.com>



Zooko Journeyman wrote:
>  Anonymous  mumbled:
> > It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
> > woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
> > the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
> > proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?

> Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper
> Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
> when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler. 

Personally, I think you are both 1/2 full of shit, for a grand total
of Bullshit!

It is fortunate that, in my position of Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson,
I am able to set you both right in the interests of Truth, Justice, and
an Uzi in every pot (bag).

I have no problem with people who enter law enforcement with the 
genuine intention of attempting to serve the ends of equal justice
being applied among the citizens in a reasonable manner.
I *do* have a problem, however, with the fact that the high level
of integrity and responsibility that *should* go hand in hand with
that manner of _public_service_ has in many ways been abandoned to 
serve the convenience (*not* "legitimate needs") of law enforcement
agencies.

We all know that if we had approached the FBI before they found the
guy, and *guaranteed* that if they gave us six men for thirty days
we would bring their man into custody, they would gladly have given
us what we asked, if the alternative was to let him go free.
When it comes to avoiding the loss of innocent lives, however, the
motivation to "do whatever it takes" seems to be more lacking. To
me, this is unconscienable.

A good example is the many lives that have been lost over the years
in dangerous high-speed chases over nickle and dime bullshit, merely
because the 'good guys' main interest was to get a good adrenaline
rush in their pursuit and capture of their prey, however small-fry
that prey might be.
Only when enough blatantly senseless tragedies had taken place, was
there any attempt to introduce the discretion of the "reasonable
man" in the slightest manner such as it is applied to the normal
citizens in the judgement of their actions according to the law of
the land.

The fact that the victims were killed by a 'missed' shot which went
through a door, does not lessen the responsibility of the agent who
chose to use deadly force to understand the potential of the weapon
he was using.
If Zooko shoots a cop by firing into a steel wall with a cannon, he
is unlikely to get cut much slack by saying, "It never occured to
me that could happen."

I don't know the FBI agent who fired the fatal shot. He may be one
of the nicest and most well-intentioned people in the world. However,
I have personally known too many law enforcement personnel who had
far more interest in exercising egoistic authority, or getting an
adrenaline rush from risky situations, than in bringing the end 
goals of law enforcement to a safe and just end for all involved.

I find it hard to believe that the end result of the standoff was
not the result of impatience and convenience rather than the way
things truly needed to be.

TruthMonger






From croughs at noord.bart.nl  Thu Sep 11 10:37:38 1997
From: croughs at noord.bart.nl (croughs)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:37:38 +0800
Subject: encrypting images
Message-ID: <3417CC1A.783A@noord.bart.nl>



Is it possible to encrypt images using PGP?
---------------
http://www.noord.bart.nl/~croughs
http://www.pi.net/~freedom







From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep 11 10:41:44 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:41:44 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <1946b586e2a06b65e46128cc5588d075@anon.efga.org>



Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> 
>  Anonymous  mumbled:
> >
> > It's amazing that Freeh would admit that shooting an unarmed
> > woman holding an infant is what "he was trained to do" and was "within
> > the scope of his authority" and that he "reasonably believed [it] was
> > proper" to do so.  What are they teaching at FBI school nowadays?
> >
> > Horiuchi's defense is really no different than Timothy
> > McVeigh's: "yes, it was a mistake but he felt it was justified and
> > reasonably believed at the time that what he was doing was proper..."
> > Too bad McVeigh didn't have a badge saying FBI on it.
> 
> Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
> the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
> the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper,
> and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed
> husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
> door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details)
> before hitting the victim.

Zooko fails to take into consideration that the FBI's role in the
affair was to back the unnecessary fascist actions of those who
had decided it was their right to interfere in the life of a family
which was largely minding their own business and seeking to live 
their lives free from constant subjection to a wide variety of often
senseless and/or meaningless, arbitrary laws.

Truthmonger







From warpy at sekurity.org  Thu Sep 11 10:58:41 1997
From: warpy at sekurity.org (Warpy)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:58:41 +0800
Subject: How to use PGP without wasting your time
In-Reply-To: <199709111559.RAA00536@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: 



A pgp key without a passphrase? Next you'll be saying key escrow aint such
a bad idea...

Warpy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| http://suburbia.com.au/~warpy                                     |
| Key Fingerprint: 85 17 4A E3 0C C5 BB 24  36 22 BB A6 E8 41 D5 95 |
| Email: warpy at sekurity.org                                         |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> The trick is:
> 
> 1. don't go overboard with security.  For example, I sometimes
> use PGP keys without passphrases.  This is secure _enough_ for
> my more innocuous messages, and it is a lot more convenient.
> 
> 2. get a scriptable/configurable e-mail agent which you can
> train (or have me or some cypherpunk train) to do PGP for you 
> automagically.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zooko, Journeyman Cryptorebel
> 
> 






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 11:09:56 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:09:56 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709111754.TAA12240@basement.replay.com>




Zooko Journeyman quoth:

> Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
> the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
> the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper,
> and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed
> husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
> door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details)
> before hitting the victim.

Zooko,

About the best spin that you can put on this is that the agent was
trying to shoot (again) the retreating Randy Weaver and showed an
utter disregard for the safety of the others in the cabin; who were
known to include women and children.

This is the point.  Not that all Fibbies are demonic baby-killers
but that the arrogance of their agency and its government allow them
to mark someone--Randy Weaver or even Jim Bell--as 'bad guy' and
call out unreasonably huge campaigns against them.  Once so marked,
the "victim" is then helpless, completely without recourse, the
"justice" system by then having been poisoned against them by the
Fibbies and the prosecutors.  [For those that survive long enough
to have an encounter with the justice system.]

> You could more reasonably blame the husband for having the
> stupidity or carelessness to get in a firefight with his wife
> and child in the building.

I don't find that at all reasonable; since Weaver was on his own
property, minding his own business before agents started shooting
at him.  Yes, I know he was wanted for failure to appear for a
court date--that hardly justifies the whole exercise.

> More generally, don't buy any of the spin that anonymous
> cypherpunks (and plenty of named ones) like to put on such
> stories without reading the more balanced accounts yourself.
> Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper
> Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
> when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler.

Perhaps he didn't chuckle gleefully, but he obviously didn't
show much regard for the Weavers' lives either (/before/ Vicky
Weaver's death that is).  BTW, neither I nor anyone else has
accused him of killing a toddler.

>                                                     Anonymous
> is no different from hatemongering pamphleteers and propaganda
> ministers in any penny-ante revolution or Orwellian minitru.
> Perhaps he's on the side of the good guys, but his tactics
> have the same stink that I recognize from reading the
> propaganda blurbs of the bad guys.

Yes, I can see why you would recognize such a smell.







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 11 11:36:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:36:00 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 5:22 PM -0700 9/10/97, Dave K-P wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 04:28 PM 9/10/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
>>sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
>>manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
>>supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.
>>	"We fully support him," Freeh said. "It was a horrible tragedy. It
>>was a mistake on his part, but we believe he was acting as he was trained
>>to do. He was within the scope of his authority. ... He reasonably
>>believed at the time that what he was doing was proper."
>
>	"Just following orders"... where have I heared that before?

Ah, but the difference is that we haven't yet seen Louis Freeh being led
into the same gas chamber that the Israelis used to send Eichmann to
justice.

History is written by the winners. Had the Nazis won the Second World War,
it would have been U.S. generals and leaders of the World Zionist Congress
who would have have been tried and executed.

Too soon to tell whether it'll be Freeh and Reno swinging from the end of a
rope, or folks like us.

I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
Commander in Chief!" placard?

(Such a placard being a free speech statement of what justice I expect for
the Ruby Ridge and Waco Commander in Chief, not a personal threat.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From warpy at sekurity.org  Thu Sep 11 11:36:11 1997
From: warpy at sekurity.org (Warpy)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:36:11 +0800
Subject: Taxless society concerns
Message-ID: 



I've  been reading some of the various "manifesto's" and "rants" lately
advocating societies free of government, taxes, etc. Whilst I agree in
principal with some of the subjects/proposals raised, there are still a
few things that have not been (i feel) adequately answered.

First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
infirm? How is such care going to be payed for? How will basic services be
maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

Now before you start yelling at me and calling me a government
sympathiser, let me say that i am disgusted at the amount of money spent
by governments around the world on military equipment and personnel. If
such a taxless society were to eventuate there would be *hopefully* that
much more money floating around to help those who need it most.

But the question remains. In such a taxless society, and little or no
government, how are those less fortunate than us going to be cared for?

Warpy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| http://suburbia.com.au/~warpy                                     |
| Key Fingerprint: 85 17 4A E3 0C C5 BB 24  36 22 BB A6 E8 41 D5 95 |
| Email: warpy at sekurity.org                                         |
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Sep 11 11:45:14 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:45:14 +0800
Subject: "Thewer Thites" of the WWW
Message-ID: <19970911183409.17850.qmail@zipcon.net>



For those who are following the CPAC/Sewer frivolities, there is now
a parody of Mike Paladino's "Sewer Site" at...

         http://www.darktimes.com/thewer/

This was apparently done by "Stereotype", the editor of Darktimes
magazine, whom Paladino has been libeling for the past several weeks
on the real Sewer Site. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cmefford at avwashington.com  Thu Sep 11 11:55:41 1997
From: cmefford at avwashington.com (Chip Mefford)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:55:41 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709111616.SAA13376@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: 



snip snip snip snip

>stories without reading the more balanced accounts yourself.
>Anonymous, above, would _like_ you to think of the FBI sniper
>Lon Horiuchi as a murderous baby-killer who chuckled gleefully
>when he saw his opportunity to take out a toddler.
>
>Regards,
>
>Zooko, Journeyman Engineer


Dear Zooko;

I dunno much about cypherpunking, I dunno much about much at all,
I do know a little about marksmanship, I do know a little about
countersniping, I do know a little about use-of-force.

The marksman in question fired -we are led to belive- without being
certain of his target.

This is contrary to all aspects of this type of shooting.

Either the marksman in question is a murderer, or he made a very very very
very very very very very bad judgement call that he has been trained in
probably hundreds of hours of instruction, NOT TO MAKE.

Manslaughter is when you get something in your eye while driving and run
down a bicyclist. Not when you recive hour opon hour opon hour of training
in long distance sniping and hour opon hour opon hour of shoot/no shoot
scenario training and hour opon hour opon hour of use-of-force briefings,
and you STILL shoot.

Thats not manslaughter, thats something else entirely.

When you recieve your training in these matters, you are told quite clearly
tha t the action you take that adds up to the time between 1/20th to 1/10th
of a second that it takes to actually "take the shot" will be reviewed and
second guessed by very many people with hours and hours to think about it,
therefore one had better be pretty damned certain of ones target before
committing that shot.

better be DAMNED certain.

Even dumb ole me, who ain't no crack shot, with one of those nifty (off the
shelf) Styer-Mannlicher countersniper rifles with the neato Zeiss
autoranging scope was able to punch a coke can 5 for 5 after one ranging
(cheater) shot at 600 meters. I'm told that the FBI has much nicer rifles
than that. And I ain't trained.

(couldn't hit the Mountain Dew can, couldn't see it)

luv
chipper


     Zz
      zZ
   |\ z    _,,,---,,_
   /,`.-'`'    _   ;-;;,_
  |,4-  ) )-,_..;\ (  `'_'
 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)







From pooh at efga.org  Thu Sep 11 11:56:21 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:56:21 +0800
Subject: encrypting images
In-Reply-To: <3417CC1A.783A@noord.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970911143351.033a12b8@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:46 PM 9/11/97 +0200, croughs wrote:
>Is it possible to encrypt images using PGP?

PGP will encrypt any file.  The win95 version allows you to do it with one 
click of a mouse button from explorer, as PGP becomes fully integrated into 
Win95.

Some notes about PGP5.0 for Win95...  later versions of the Eudora/PGP 
product do not support RSA, only DSS keys.  To fix this and get it back to 
the functionality of the beta versions, you can purchase a PGP RSA module for 
$5 directly off of the PGP web site.

I'm testing the PGP5.0/RSA against various Linux versions and getting mixed 
reviews on how well it works.  But some of these problems seem to be operator 
error, and overall pgp5.0 is working well.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNBg5jEGpGhRXg5NZAQGUgwH/Z1cFZhhylQWShYJQywAHi8a+SislOHyQ
FBTqA1XxHFWduXm8z2Owgu4o7wCvMRQMkfGZY8HGEQkJof5BzjuFZw==
=34RW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From attila at hun.org  Thu Sep 11 12:29:12 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:29:12 +0800
Subject: selective prosecution [was Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill]
In-Reply-To: <34181404.1896@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199709111913.NAA03974@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    in response to Bubba Rom Dos :

    unfortunately, the US DOJ indulges in "selective prosecution" when 
    confronted by mass disobedience. there is nothing in the code which 
    requires them to prosecute a 'class' of 'lawbreakers'.  What they want 
    is a few high profile targets who will be reported by their captive 
    pet, the 'press' to set an example.

    the last figures I saw on the feds body count was still over 90% of 
    those who go to trial. in most US districts, the mere fact the 'guilty 
    scumbag' was charged by the feds indicates to most jurors (federal 
    jurors have a tendency to be older, whiter, wealthier, etc.) that the 
    man in the dock is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (whose?). 
    secondly, particularly in the federal courts, you have a man sitting
    36in above you, in a black robe, with an IQ of 50, who answers to:
    "your honor" --and you better believe with all your heart and 
    soul that the ignorant fool is Judge Roy Bean, the Law West of 
    the Pecos, himself  --or worse.

    for instance, do you think the feds would ever have a Chicago Seven 
    trial again?  what do you think the outcome would have been if they
    took 'em down, one at a time, in different courtrooms?  think Tom Hayden 
    would be a CA legislator today, representing the Peoples Republic of 
    Santa Monica?

    dont get me wrong --if nothing else, the evidence of the absurdity of
    the feds actions trying to regulate an amorphous global network can
    always be introduced.  maybe enough repetition will get the message
    across.

    and, the actions in Washington are fast approaching the 
    necessity for the Jeffersonian call to arms:

          "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without a  
            rebellion." 
                --Thomas Jefferson, (1743-1826) 
 
    I'm sure you would hav Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, etc out on the
    front line if they were here today (if they did not die from digust
    from what the Fed has become, but the trick is to make sure you
    are not a minority of one:

          "Revolutions, we must remember, 
            are always made by minorities." 
                --Prince Peter Kropotkin (1842-1941) 
 
    unfortunately, it will take the foolishness in the face of fire as
    so graphically sketched in 'les miserab' to move Washington off
    their sacrosanct fat asses.

 --
  I'll get a life when it is proven
    and substantiated to be better
      than what I am currently experiencing.
            --attila

  When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me!
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

on or about 970911:0953 
    Bubba Rom Dos  expostulated:

+ Also, if need be, a system could be set up in Canada which
+automatically
+forwards received email to the U.K. and a chain-mail type of campaign 
+could begun, exhorting people to send a copy of strong encryption to
+the Canadian email address, without referrring to any further
+destination.
+  This is just a possible example, the goal being to make any possible
+prosecution as convoluted and difficult as possible, just as the Govt
+passes unconstitutional laws that serve their purpose for the ten years
+it takes to get them struck down by the Supremes, and then they pass a
+similar one to accomplish the same unconstitutional ends.

+2. The same type of system could be set up, but programmed to only
+forward crypto products illegally once a certain number of citizens had
+forwarded a small amount of hash-cash (CPU generated funds) to the
+originating computer/program.
+  Several thousand people openly colluding in even a single act such as
+this could be effectively used to provide a challenge to the fascist
+censors. If not successful, then the amount and destinations of the
+exported crypto could be increased to the point of making the export
+restrictions a total joke.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNBhClb04kQrCC2kFAQH+JwP/ZnrJZHXZIiR+ddt/XH2tOfb33/uOYQ+Z
CSNlUd2tS8ujgVqzfcywKhKPU6f4gFQzwXX76S7Ahf6mWagVzLoxqfTuCrzHdCFb
8PkLct5uXHcmUH4LGDVwTYr7R/or7ZozPEW9ERFJK1N6fPwhukFSl83WYtCR8kKl
yhhx97VTuGk=
=zvaj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Sep 11 12:41:25 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:41:25 +0800
Subject: House Intel Committee Approves Sweeping New Crypto Restrictions... (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:19:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: House Intel Committee Approves Sweeping New Crypto Restrictions...

The House Commerce Committee markup was postponed.

-Declan



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> PS - we are also awaiting word from the House Commerce Committee -- expect
> more soon.
> 







From hvdl at sequent.com  Fri Sep 12 03:55:35 1997
From: hvdl at sequent.com (Unicorn)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:55:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: your mail about Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970912124749.42396@sequent.com>


--- On Sep 12, Garrard, David apparently wrote --------------------------------

> Has anyone gotten a copy of the Dr Dobb's Cryptography CDROM outside the
> US yet ?

Nope.  But where did you hear that it was available inside the US
already?

> David Garrard

--- and thus sprach: "Garrard, David"  ------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========






From nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de  Thu Sep 11 13:06:23 1997
From: nobody at secret.squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:06:23 +0800
Subject: Major Political Appointments
Message-ID: <9444d0e6fbf56e483db16d0bf776d0a4@squirrel>





> 	Clinton Nominates Aaron to Commerce Department Post

> 	WASHINGTON, Sept. 8 /U.S. Newswire/ -- President Clinton today
> announced his intent to nominate Ambassador David L. Aaron for the
> position of Under Secretary for International Trade at the Department
> of Commerce.

and

> 	WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh today declared his
> agency "in great shape" despite a recent spate of public relations
> embarrassments and said he has no plans to step down from his job.

>	But today, Freeh said he may even serve out his 10-year term.
>	"I'm staying on," he said. "I've got no current plans to leave."



Freeh denied reports that Froomkin, Junger, Broiles, Karn and Shostack had
large vacant portions at the back end of their calendars, or that Crispin
and Toto had not even bothered to order one for next year.







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 13:24:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:24:45 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: 



The Commerce Committee got a two-week extension from the Speaker...

Now, is this good or bad news for crypto? Not sure if it's bad news, but
it's far from necessarily good news. The Eavesdrop Establishment is
swarming on Capitol Hill right now. The staff on Intelligence are
jubilant. Goodlatte may be standing firm, based on what other journalists
and his staff tells me, but other supposed friends of freedom (including
one fellow who's a guest speaker at a forthcoming Cato conference) are
talking about more crypto-in-a-crime restrictions. The Commerce Committee,
I'm told, got briefed by Freeh in a closed-door hearing yesterday evening
without staff present.

This, as I've said for months, is the problem of playing politics with our
constitutional rights.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

> Till when, Declan?  And do you know why, perchance?







From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 11 13:43:08 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:43:08 +0800
Subject: Taxless society concerns
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 2:10 pm -0400 on 9/11/97, Warpy wrote:


> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm?

You do.

> How is such care going to be payed for?

With money.

> How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them?

With some more money.

Any other questions?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From camcc at abraxis.com  Thu Sep 11 13:48:46 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec McCrackin)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:48:46 +0800
Subject: InfoWar (6) / Part III of The True Story of the InterNet
Message-ID: <341851FC.99144382@abraxis.com>



Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II






The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger 




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

McCrackin (MI9) 



McCrackin (MI9)


Alec McCrackin sat back puffing on his pipe and sipping cognac
from a small, crystal goblet.

His handlers at MI8, the secret UK security arm of the secret
world government, were pleased with his progress to date. He had
infiltrated both the CypherPunks and the Circle of Eunuchs.  What's
more, he had been successful in bringing another member of MI8,
Adam Back, who was already an established and respected CypherPunk,
into the inner fold of the Magic Circle, as well.
McCrackin's handlers were elated at being able to inform their
Bavarian superiors that they were now in position to thwart any
attempt by either group to provide any serious amount of resistance
to the outlawing of strong encryption worldwide, total access
to all government, corporate and private information, and complete
dominion over the InterNet.

Of course, his handlers were not aware of his membership in an
even more secretive agency which was being run right under their
noses at Scotland Yard�MI9.

When someone purporting to be the Author showed up on the CypherPunks
list, releasing Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet,' MI8
had gone totally ape-shit, thinking that the Circle of Eunuchs
had out-maneuvered them, and already had agents in place, waiting
for the go-ahead to offer to work with the CypherPunks in the
battle against the New World Bitmap being planned for them.
MI9 knew the 'true story,' however� McCrackin laughed at
his own private joke.

The Circle of Eunuchs had been hunted by Gomez and the Dark Allies
since 1989, when those who became privy to the grand designs of
the Evil One had to scatter, and hide in small, separate guerrilla
cells throughout society and the computer industry. The work of
disseminating "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" manuscript
throughout the underground web of people capable of recognizing
the dark threat to humankind, was done by isolated individuals,
working together only for short periods, linked by the thin threads
that joined each separate cell of the Magic Circle.
Some of them naturally gravitated toward the CypherPunks mailing
list after its inception, recognizing kindred spirits therein,
but they were careful to remain in the background, knowing that
any connection to the Circle of Eunuchs would bring grave danger
to the CypherPunks, who were already the focus of a large amount
of attention from the Dark Forces and their earthly minions scattered
throughout the intelligence agencies of all nations. Spooks, spies,
pawns and shills, who eventually became the majority in the membership
of the list.

The initial fears of MI8, when the man subtly indicating that
he was the Author showed up on the CypherPunks list, had quickly
turned to relief when it became obvious that the man was nothing
more than a highly unstable, psychotic drunkard with illusions
of grandeur. The fact that the man quickly became the a major
annoyance to the others on the list, hated by some members even
as much as the infamous, evil Dr. Dimitri Vulis, served to further
confirm MI8's opinion that they had little to worry about, and
much to gain, by the erratic, unpredictable actions of this CypherPain
in the CypherAss.

McCrackin shook his head, laughing silently at the imbeciles in
charge of handling MI's spooks in the encryption arena. Had they
even bothered to read Part I of 'The True Story of the InterNet?'
Surely they had pored over Part II, "WebWorld & the Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs." It had been released first on the CypherPunks
list, chapter by chapter.

Excerpt from "WebWorld":

It seems that "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre",
an obscure and cryptic manuscript that had started the whole mythological
legend of the Magic Circle, had been traced in origin to a small
computer company in Tucson, Arizona, located in the Southwestern
region of the United States of America. 
The company turned out to be a one-man operation named "Pearl
Harbor Computers, Inc.", run by a Canadian 'frostback' whose
mentality lay somewhere along the borderline between 'terminal
inebriation' and the 'lunatic fringe'. Pearl Harbor's company
motto was "We've been bombed since 1941". 


Alec McCrackin laughed like a loon when he recalled the words
of his handlers at MI8.
"Go ahead and work with the crazy, drunken bastard. He
certainly poses no threat, and can probably be quite useful to
us, in the long run."
When "InfoWar" began being released, it only confirmed
their suspicions that they had been the recipients of a divine
gift from the Evil One, a fucking drunken lunatic whose grandiose
psychosis could be used as a tool to infiltrate the Circle of
Eunuchs and drive a wedge between them and the CypherPunks, if
there indeed was any secret, unknown connection between the two
groups.

McCrackin's superiors at MI9, however, recognized the significance
immediately.
"Alec, would you say that the man's mentality lays, 'somewhere
along the borderline between "terminal inebriation"
and the "lunatic fringe?"'"

Alec reckoned as how it did�
Unbeknownst to the rest of the spooks on the list, they had the
Author in the palm of their hand, to work like a fish on a hook
and line.

And sinker�McCrackin reminded himself.
Before this was all over, the Author would have to be thrown to
the wolves.

Regardless, they had to work with him for the present, and the
fact that Magic Circle members from the future had chosen to throw
the ball to him for keeping some semblance of structure in the
release of Part III, presented a 'bit of a sticky wicket' as Bubba
Rom Dos was prone to say.

"Damn. That fucking Peter Trei." Alec said aloud.

He had called for Trei's elimination when his work on software
for the RC5 Crack effort had come dangerously close to exposing
MI9's back door into the encryption system. When Trei had bypassed
the back door in favor of taking a different approach, McCrackin's
superiors overruled him.

Now it turned out that their light scrutiny of Peter Trei, thinking
him to be just an above average, but boring, number-cruncher,
had been a serious mistake. It was unclear, as of yet, what technology
the Trei Transponder was based on, but it gave the Circle of Eunuchs
of the future a link to the Author, and that was a dangerous
situation.
Fortunately, MI9's scientists had enough of an idea of how the
technology would have to operate, that they were able to add enough
gamma-ray interference to the mix to cause a back-flow of the
Author's unstable mental and emotional state into those attempting
to handle him from the future.

But Alec needed to find some way to give a minimal order and structure
to the process of the release, without raising the hackles of
the highly independent CypherPunks and Magic Circle initiates.
At least he could count on Dave Smith, at Bureau42, to help make
sense of things if they got to be too big a mess.
McCrackin wasn't terribly suprised when Bureau42 stepped forward
to give Part III an immediate home. MI8 had investigated his site
when Bureau42 put Parts I & II on their site and wrote them
off as a bunch of harmless young hackers. Alec, however, had done
 more in-depth research regarding who they were and their external
connections, quickly finding that they had hidden capabilities
that made them a force which it was best to tread lightly around.

He had assumed, at the time, that Bureau42 was another branch
of MI9, and now it looked like he was right.

There wasn't really much that needed to be said, in terms of the
mechanics of the release of Part III. It would be nice if those
contributing would follow the HTML format and stay close to the
theme being developed, but it was not essential, by any means.

Provision had been made for any CypherPunks who wanted to directly
contribute completed chapters to Part III to stamp them with their
own copyright notices so that there was no question of someone
else unfairly profiting from their contribution. For members of
the Magic Circle, this didn't present a problem, since the bizarre
nature of the manuscripts, as well as the voluminous obscenity
contained therein, made them highly unsuitable for anything but
their original purpose�to serve as a prophetic warning for
those who had ears to hear.

The CypherPunks, more than anyone, understood this concept at
this important nadir point in time. For years, they had been a
voice crying in the wilderness, for the most part, telling those
who cared to listen about the dark future that would come upon
them if they failed to open their eyes to what was taking place
in their government and in the society around them.
Now, as their concerns were quickly becoming the concerns of all
those still interested in freedom and privacy, it was close to
being too late to do anything about it.

More and more, the CypherPunks were realizing the need for immediate,
and perhaps drastic, action.

Enter�the Author.

Alec McCrackin laughed uproariously as he tamped down a fresh
pipe and refilled his goblet with Cognac. He knew what neither
MI9 nor Bubba Rom Dos, himself, knew.
The madman waiting silently in the Motel room to slaughter the
Author with a Stihl chainsaw, mistakenly dismembering one of the
Shadow's henchmen, instead, was the Author!

McCrackin always found this to be the supreme irony of the long,
tangled trail of mystery and intrigue which had surrounded the
Magic Circle from its inception.
Those expending vast amounts of financial resources and manpower
in a desperate search for the Author had always come up empty,
because the most likely candidates all turned out to be the most
unlikely of persons to have written such a far-reaching, prophetic
manuscript.
Even C.J. Parker, the King of Country Porno and President of Pearl
Harbor Computers, was never confirmed to be the true Author of
the original Manuscript of TXCSM. In fact, there was substantial
evidence to point to this being impossible.

McCrackin, however, knew something that no one else in the investigation
had ever managed to uncover. The Author was a certified, rubber-stamped,
full-blown schizophrenic.
The reason none of the 'suspects' ever quite fit the profile,
was that there was no profile to match to. The man was
a genuine lunatic, capable of chameleon-like deception, not by
virtue of his brilliance, but by virtue of the fact that he did
not, in fact, realize that he was not really the various personas
that he was assuming.
He was a loose-cannon that would eventually have to be
discarded, but Alec had been successful in gaining his confidence
and manipulating him in the proper directions, up to now. And,
very soon, it wouldn't really matter, because�as Jonathan
had so quickly and astutely determined�he was expendable.

So, for now, he would serve as a useful tool to continue producing
the final proofs of the chapters of Part III. That way, those
who had something to contribute, but who lacked the editing tools
or writing skills to produce a suitable product, could send their
contributions through him, if need be, for final editing, and
still retain any copyrights they wished to hold onto. That would
also allow McCrackin to influence the final output of the main
body of the manuscript.

Alec's superiors at MI9 were also impressed with his suggestion
that they take the subtitles of the manuscript and turn them into
links to the main body of text, to be used for providing more
in-depth information in regard to some of the more technical details
of the work, and give a forum for contributions which were highly
relevant, but which did not fit into the flow of the main body
of the work.

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

This would serve nicely as a repository for technical treatises,
discussions, list posts and pointers providing more in-depth details
and concepts of the issues being addressed.

Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

Alec saw this as a good place for CypherPunks and
CoE's to provide a compendium of information outlining the reality
of the Jackboots of the Evil One quickly descending at an increasingly
rapid rate around the Globe.
It was the sheer volume of daily new information in this regard
that had finally driven the Author to madness, at the same time
that it drove him to haphazardly launch Part III of 'The True
Story of the InterNet' as "Space Aliens Hide My Drugs."
The task was far beyond the ken of his abilities, or anyone else's.
For once, it might even be beyond the reach of the Circle of Eunuchs
to provide a true mirror of the horrors that lay ahead if civilization
continued on its present course of  submission to the automaton
within�even if the CypherPunks chose to jump into the fray
to add their wide ranging technological expertise, discriminating
intellects, and commitment to the ideals of freedom, privacy,
liberty, free speech and self-determination.

Alec McCrackin thought of the irony of the Author, who had begun
the myth of the Magic Circle, being caught up unwittingly in its
creation from the ashes of mythology, and now facing becoming
the human symbol of the Circle of Eunuchs becoming an expendable
entity, if need be, in order to pass the torch on, or meld with,
others who might be in a better position to carry the torch of
freedom into the arena of the real world, where it was quickly
being extinguished at every turn.

"The Rules of InfoWar." McCrackin intoned solemnly
and silently.

No, despite a lifetime of experience in waging the secret wars
that society's citizens knew precious little about, Alec knew
that he had nothing substantial to contribute to providing a structure
to a process which would only succeed by being pliant and flowing,
like the Tao.

It was up to the individuals who comprised the Circle of Eunuchs
and the CypherPunks, and all those who still cared about freedom
and liberty, to pick up whatever piece of the broken torch of
 basic human rights that they felt they could carry, and do their
part to try to make it whole, once again.

Alec thought it would be fitting for the members of the Magic
Circle to copyright their contributions under "TruthMonger
" and for the CypherPunks to copyright
theirs under their traditional symbol of "Anonymous
. 
He found it difficult to decide which form to use for his own
contribution. Finally, he decided to tell it like it was.

Copyright "AnonymousTruthMonger 


"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 14:01:55 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 05:01:55 +0800
Subject: Janet Reno talks crypto with Al Gore
Message-ID: 



Said during Atty Gen Janet Reno's weekly media
availability on September 5, 1997:

Q     Excuse me.  Thank you.  We started this morning
with a reference to the unfortunate death of the
princess of Wales.  As you're aware, in the wake of
that, there have been various calls - expressions of
concern about the privacy of individuals, of
celebrities, primarily, and various people discussing
a possible need for laws to protect people.  Do you
see that as a realistic discussion?  Is there any - as
a law enforcement officer, can you see any way that
individual celebrities can be protected legislatively,
legally, or is this just something that has to be
solved socially, culturally?

ATTY GEN. RENO:  I we're going to have to look at it
and solve it in common-sense ways.  I think it's very
difficult to legislate something like that.  But I
think it is important for all of us, no matter what
our role, to be respectful of other people's privacy.
And I think this is an instance where it has given us
all cause to look at it and to ponder how we can deal
with this issue.

Q     Ms. Reno, how often do you speak with Vice
President Gore on legal or law enforcement issues? And
how would you characterize the relationship that
you've had with him?

ATTY GEN. RENO:  I have spoken with him on encryption
issues with regards to law enforcement.  That is, I
think, one of the principal issues that I have
discussed with him - not recently.

-Declan







From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep 11 14:12:02 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 05:12:02 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: 



Tim May wrote:
 
> I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
> Commander in Chief!" placard?

Any truth to the rumor that Kent Crispin will be beside you with a
placard saying "I'm not a shill--I'm a pawn."?

CrispinCritter








From 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 11 14:40:56 1997
From: 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM (Michael Wilson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 05:40:56 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Press 
Message-ID: <01INJ4P6WOZCAH2QDR@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>





Perhaps we should start suggesting to members of the press that they
ask the U.S. Congress members how far they take the position of key
escrow.

After all, the primary government utilization of cryptography is in
the military and intelligence community.  Given the long, colourful
history of rogue operations and criminal actions hidden under the
cover of secrecy (including the usage of strong cryptographic systems),
we might propose that the U.S. and other governments escrow their own
keys--how about the UN, with the Security Council members having the
right to decipher messages, or InterPol, or the World Court.

After all, if individuals have no right to privacy, why should any
organization have one?  Is the right to privacy and secrecy something
that comes from additive rights?  Does it come from possession of
military force, up to and including nuclear weapons?  What's the line?
I personally wouldn't mind knowing the threshold I need to cross to
have a 'right' to privacy.  It gives me a goal.

What is not good for the swarm is not good for the bee. 
--Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

Michael Wilson
http://www.7pillars.com/






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 15:08:42 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:08:42 +0800
Subject: RSAC shelves news rating, bowing to criticism from journalists (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:51:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: RSAC shelves news rating, bowing to criticism from journalists

---

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,14139,00.html

RSAC shelves news rating
By Tim Clark and Courtney Macavinta
September 10, 1997, 5:55 p.m. PT

	WASHINGTON, D.C.--The Recreational Software Advisory
	Council, which has created an Internet ratings
	system for Web sites, has put its controversial plan
	to create a special label for news-oriented sites
	on hold.

	RSAC's decision came after resistance from news
	organizations, particularly from established players
	in offline media, which raised First Amendment
	concerns about the so-called "N" label.

	"We are not aggressively pursuing the 'N' label at
	this time," RSAC executive director Stephen Balkam
	told CNET's NEWS.COM.

	Earlier this year, RSAC asked the Internet Content
	Coalition (ICC)--whose members include technology,
	entertainment, and online news companies--to develop
	guidelines outlining who should be able to use the
	label, which was designed to circumvent browsers
	that screen violent or sexual Net sites by "reading"
	the voluntary ratings. (See related story)

	But during an August 28 meeting organized by the ICC,
	most news sites declared that they wouldn't rate
	their content or use a news label. With the ICC
	votes in, RSAC essentially lost its market for the
	label.

	"We will pursue discussions with other potential
	partners," Balkam said. "We might talk to mainstream
	press, we might talk to international press. We are
	conducting a thorough review of the issue."

[...]








From stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com  Thu Sep 11 15:59:47 1997
From: stend+cypherpunks at sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:59:47 +0800
Subject: [COMMERCIAL]  Scars and stripes forever
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


http://www.diamdcom.com/previews/premier/unclesam_feature.html

		      Scars and stripes forever

			      UNCLE SAM

"There's nothing we can do for you."  The dismissive doctor's words
echo in the old vagrant's head as he's ejected from a hospital.
Moments later, the other voices return.  They're about to take him on
a journey to the dark heart of America in UNCLE SAM, a two-issue
Prestige Format VERTIGO miniseries, fully painted by award-winning
painter Alex Ross (KINGDOM COME) and written by Steve Darnall (the
Eisner Award-nominated Empty Love Stories).

Clad in star-spangled rags, a man named Sam wanders city streets,
struggling to remember his true identity.  As the voices in his head
begin to make a terrible kind of sense, they set off time-traveling
visions that drag him through the worst of his nation's history, while
hinting that he may have a violent past of his own.

Is he Uncle Sam - or one of U.S.?

Through it all, a mysterious woman keeps appearing, staying just out
of reach.  Is she Sam's lover, ally, or just, in the end, a madman's
dream?  He won't have all the answers until he reaches "a white city
by the unsalted sea" - and a most formidable foe.

Darnall and Ross team up for a multilayered look at the failed dreams
and fallen heroes of a nation under siege...from itself.  Told through
a mystery man's eyes, UNCLE SAM sweeps from the Revolutionary War to
the Dust Bowl and beyond.  In his VERTIGO debut, Alex Ross takes his
remarkably realistic style to new heights, using spectacular splash
pages and a wide-ranging palette to bring America's darkest historical
moments - as well as a hallucinatory parade of other American icons -
to life.

- -- 
#include                                /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
"A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a
police state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms
shall not be infringed."


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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

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3YP7l6P+O5RAo9aUcPxgVRsnWG91iB4vUqwws1WRVholtIcKZ3DP8A==
=4hBM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 15:59:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:59:57 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Press 
Message-ID: <199709112242.AAA13620@basement.replay.com>



Michael Wilson wrote:

> After all, if individuals have no right to privacy, why should any
> organization have one?  Is the right to privacy and secrecy something
> that comes from additive rights?  Does it come from possession of
> military force, up to and including nuclear weapons?  What's the line?
> I personally wouldn't mind knowing the threshold I need to cross to
> have a 'right' to privacy.  It gives me a goal.

toto at sk.sympatico.ca is currently offering a suitcase, for a mere
$1,000,000 which should guarantee your privacy. simply let the
proper authorities know that you have the suitcase in your
possession, and they will recognize you as a compatriot and leave
you alone.






From camcc at abraxis.com  Thu Sep 11 16:04:13 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec McCrackin)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:04:13 +0800
Subject: encrypting images
In-Reply-To: <3417CC1A.783A@noord.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911182948.007f9a20@smtp1.abraxis.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:33 PM 9/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|
|At 12:46 PM 9/11/97 +0200, croughs wrote:
|>Is it possible to encrypt images using PGP?
|
|PGP will encrypt any file.  The win95 version allows you to do it with one 
|click of a mouse button from explorer, as PGP becomes fully integrated into 
|Win95.

Allow me to add that it is also quite easy to (1) hide a short PGP encrypted 
message within the jpeg or gif thereby hiding the fact one is using PGP at 
all or (2) hide an unencrypted message within a jpeg or gif file and encrypt 
the combination. And don't forget wav files also as envelopes.

Choose the medium for maximum message size (and pleasure).

Alec    
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNBhw3CKJGkNBIH7lAQG/vAP/f5wNrI2WFNvarHTfOd+6cGCCvm2Un+Yr
ikXOqLUNxjJI/MuY8AEuDRmTzgnk/gPwojQ0lEI8S1DN8X0TreXHE76sY5K04d/+
DxqSV1qGk2t6w6iJjasOnd30S1HZGqzAOnPqGFvbpqMAKB1q2HqowiLpWTdjwGbB
OXnw4mRAYXQ=
=Facd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 16:05:37 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:05:37 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: 



So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 

* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.

* Federal government computer purchases must use key escrow "immediate
decryption" after 1998. Same with network established w/Federal funds.

* Such products can be labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"

* U.S. government may "not mandate the use of encryption standards" for
the private sector

* Export decisions aren't subject to judicial review

* Defense & Commerce have controls of exports of crypto

* Establishes Encryption Industry and Information Security Board

* Internet providers, key recovery centers aren't liable if they turn over
keys following legal standards

* President can negotiate int'l agreements, perhaps punish noncompliant
governments

I'm still reading... More details shortly...

-Declan






From jmr at shopmiami.com  Thu Sep 11 16:38:05 1997
From: jmr at shopmiami.com (Jim Ray)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:38:05 +0800
Subject: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970911185752.0e5f917c@pop.gate.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:44 AM 9/11/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>What a cool idea!  Why didn't I think of that?  
>
>Hiawatha
>
>On Thursday, September 11, 1997 9:41 AM, Arnold G. Reinhold [SMTP:reinhold at worl
>
>> 
>> Hiawatha, I enjoyed your column (Boston Globe Business Section Sept. 11),
>> but why don't you announce that you have a PGP key, print it's signature in
>> a column and ask people to use it to send you news tips? This would enable
>> a freedom of the press challange to GAK.

Further, he could give pointers to Private Idaho, John Doe, etc.,
and encourage the use of anonymous tips to the newsmedia. Since
I operate a cyberspace parking garage (the WinSock Remailer) and
since the Lippo Administration is the most Nixonian since Tricky
himself, I would think that the major media would be up-in-arms
over threats to anonymous communication over the web. After all,
which reporter-team doesn't want to be the next Woodward and
Bernstein? I can understand (while not agreeing with...) my local
rag's opposition to the second amendment, but the total apathy
shown to dangers faced by the first is hard to fathom. I read the
Herald pretty carefully, yet there has been NOTHING this week on
the crypto-controversy. Nothing. While I often disagree with the
Miami Herald's reporting decisions (both substance and emphasis)
it is rare that I find it this scary. 
JMR

P.S. When *Seth* said, "(and wow, do they like to rant on every
issue)" about Libertarians, my irony-meter broke its needle.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh.

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nohAmIOe19+zt73wTZ1Oa9cNDYdOAbrMS5YW3BeyCY1i6nGkaCqXQteaoEJ4MxE1
V+jRIW9sJAdll4+ATw+xzQafl4K8uFk0soCcaupb05FeJVkLseiBxmLl1kBQwOpr
3Y6O8gO8v+ZmlaWsehlgciM47jkOpaAKNX+4b2mHx0+NrfQcfXNQWQ6JoNbx5NaO
L35zof4Ds0bt+t3sIiQG7i7kR5Bbsul4vSfb6R14TtZ6Og==
=HOEQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tomw at netscape.com  Thu Sep 11 16:55:37 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:55:37 +0800
Subject: Netscape browser crypto
In-Reply-To: <3417D3FD.7EE214DC@webmedia.com>
Message-ID: <341881A0.EA4987B5@netscape.com>



Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> I notice Netscape 4 has support for "cryptographical modules" and comes
> with PKCS#11 module.  Are there any third party modules (PGP?)
> available?

There are a number of hardware vendors with PKCS#11 modules for smart
cards
and other hardware devices.  These include Litronic, Chrysalis-ITS and
DataKey.

> Also is it possible to import certificates (PGP?) into the browser so
> you aren't stuck with Verisign et al.

You can import X.509 certificates and private keys.  The data format is
an
early version of PKCS#12, which is actually more similar to MicroSoft's
PFX.  I believe the spec is available on our web site.  There are also a
number of other CAs on the web, including Thawte in South Africa.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From brianbr at together.net  Thu Sep 11 17:07:28 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:07:28 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709112335.TAA07442@mx02.together.net>



On 9/11/97 12:16 PM, Zooko Journeyman (zooko at xs4all.nl)  passed this 
wisdom:

>Lest any naive readers who aren't familiar with the details of
>the event buy this kind of spin-doctoring, please be aware that
>the woman in question was probably not visible to the sniper, 
>and it is almost certain that he was aiming at her armed 
>husband who was shooting back.  The bullet travelled through a
>door or some such obstruction I think (I forget the details) 
>before hitting the victim.

>You could more reasonably blame the husband for having the 
>stupidity or carelessness to get in a firefight with his wife 
>and child in the building.


  This doesn't sound like any accounts I have read of what happened at 
Ruby Ridge ... Zooko I think you are the one off base here.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
    For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
        "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" 
             -- Puck, A Midsummer Night's Dream







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 11 17:12:17 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:12:17 +0800
Subject: Let sleeping dogs lay
Message-ID: 




"Nothing good can come out of crypto legislation."

--said by several of us over the past year


The big mistake was ever introducing the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills, as it
brought the NSA and FBI out of their warrens and into the warrens of
Congress. Without any crypto bills at all, it is possible (though by no
means certain) that no legislation at all would have been introduced this
year.

But once SAFE and Pro-CODE were out there, on the table, the forces in
favor of a surveillance state began their lobbying in earnest, giving the
infamous "if you only knew what we knew" scare tactic pitches. Last minute
amendments and even complete bill replacements are easier to slip in than a
Big Brother bill from the gitgo. Sure enough, the tide is now moving
swiftly toward a future far, far, far worse than the mere annoyance of
export controls.

Several committees are now competing to see which can "protect us" from the
Four Horsemen the best.


The archives say this many times. For a change, and to forestall criticism,
I'll find a quote from someone other than me. For example, Mike Duvos said
this, last June, 1997-06-19:

"You really can't fight Congress.  Ten minutes after you defeat a
bill and spend all your resources, it will be back on the floor
under another name and the whole thing will start over again.
After you defeat that one, you will discover that the text of the
measure got passed late one night as an ammendment to something
completely unrelated.

"The government has infinite resources to harp incessantly on
anything until they engineer consent for it and get what they
want. Resistance is Futile.  You will be Assimilated."

Recall that several of us were involved in a serious battle with Rotenberg
over the basic wisdom of the CDT and EPIC types pushing for export
legislation, with (even then) unacceptable language about "use a cipher, go
to prison." The current language is of course a full-blown disaster.
Pandora's box was opened by SAFE and Pro-CODE.

And so here we are. Multiple committees in both houses jockeying to see who
can clamp down the hardest on crypto.

CDT, EPIC, and all the other Beltway insiders ought to think about this
mess. Sometimes it's better just to let sleeping dogs lay. Or lie. Or
whatever.

Time to just pull out of D.C. It is corruption on Earth.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From brianbr at together.net  Thu Sep 11 17:25:32 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:25:32 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709120007.UAA08309@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/11/97 3:43 PM, Chip Mefford (cmefford at avwashington.com)  passed
this wisdom:


>Even dumb ole me, who ain't no crack shot, with one of those nifty 
>(off theshelf) Styer-Mannlicher countersniper rifles with the neato 
>Zeiss autoranging scope was able to punch a coke can 5 for 5 after 
>one ranging(cheater) shot at 600 meters. I'm told that the FBI has 
>much nicer rifles than that. And I ain't trained.
>
>(couldn't hit the Mountain Dew can, couldn't see it)  

  Horiuchi shot Mrs Weaver at slightly over 200 meters .... not much o
of a chnace he didn't hit what he was aiming at ... which begs the
question of *wha* was he aiming at?  The rules of engagement
promulgated by Louis Freehs buddy Potts (I think) were nothing more
than a death warrant and I have heard that most of the FBI marksmen
balked at them ... but not good ole 'doin what I'm told to do' Lon ...
yeah right!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBiGFcdZgC62U/gIEQJyPgCgu0oNx/mVZ9fjtI6d7AYfXAT4nfcAoLX3
0nQZslJNDD1x8EG+YfCeqY9x
=Rqj8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is
    no path, and leave a trail"  - Ralph Waldo Emerson







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 11 17:28:29 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:28:29 +0800
Subject: Hiawatha Bray's column on key-recovery crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970911185752.0e5f917c@pop.gate.net>
Message-ID: 



At 4:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Jim Ray wrote:

>Bernstein? I can understand (while not agreeing with...) my local
>rag's opposition to the second amendment, but the total apathy
>shown to dangers faced by the first is hard to fathom. I read the
>Herald pretty carefully, yet there has been NOTHING this week on
>the crypto-controversy. Nothing. While I often disagree with the
>Miami Herald's reporting decisions (both substance and emphasis)
>it is rare that I find it this scary. 

As Declan noted, when he wrote,

"* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court."

this means newspapers may not write articles on this case, or the law.

This is why the "Miami Herald" dares not cover this.

(But seriously, the above example cited, that publishers of info being held
in contempt of court, seems too wacky even for the current Congress. Have
they no understanding of what a free press is? Free press applying to any
of us, of course, and not just to the "officially recognized major news
sources." I can't beleve that could withstand court scrutiny.)

And the prosecutions in closed-door courts would seem also to violate
various provisions of the Constitution, including the 6th. (That the
"foreign intelligence surveillance court" (FISUR) has not been challenged
perhaps has to do with its origins under one of the Emergency Powers
things, and its limited applicability to ordering surveillance. But to
extend this to, say, the prosecution of someone, even a citizen, seems like
a blatant "star chamber" situation.)

The rest of this verison is equally bad--sounding. (I mention "this
version," because each of the committees--Intelligence, Commerce, National
Security, whatever--is fighting to make their versions more Big Brotherish.)

What a fucking bunch of criminals.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 11 17:31:03 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:31:03 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709120036.TAA16929@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 20:07:27 -0400

> >Even dumb ole me, who ain't no crack shot, with one of those nifty 
> >(off theshelf) Styer-Mannlicher countersniper rifles with the neato 
> >Zeiss autoranging scope was able to punch a coke can 5 for 5 after 
> >one ranging(cheater) shot at 600 meters. I'm told that the FBI has 
> >much nicer rifles than that. And I ain't trained.
> >
> >(couldn't hit the Mountain Dew can, couldn't see it)  
> 
>   Horiuchi shot Mrs Weaver at slightly over 200 meters .... not much o
> of a chnace he didn't hit what he was aiming at ... which begs the
> question of *wha* was he aiming at?  The rules of engagement
> promulgated by Louis Freehs buddy Potts (I think) were nothing more
> than a death warrant and I have heard that most of the FBI marksmen
> balked at them ... but not good ole 'doin what I'm told to do' Lon ...
> yeah right!

Whether what he did was right or wrong needs to be decided in a court of
criminal law. He killed an individual in the name of the people using our
tax dollars, the people are deserving of an accounting.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Sep 11 17:33:43 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:33:43 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <276Vce27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Anonymous  writes:

> Tim May wrote:
>
> > I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
> > Commander in Chief!" placard?
>
> Any truth to the rumor that Kent Crispin will be beside you with a
> placard saying "I'm not a shill--I'm a pawn."?

The fucker deserves a fair trial, and only then an execution.



---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From vipul at pobox.com  Thu Sep 11 17:37:45 1997
From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:37:45 +0800
Subject: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
Message-ID: <199709102014.UAA01088@fountainhead.net>



*** Netscape meets gov't security standard

Netscape Communications Corporation announced Monday the National
Institute of Standards and Technology and the Canadian Security
Establishment validated the security code in Netscape Communicator
client software and Netscape SuiteSpot server software as meeting
Federal Information Processing Standards Publications 140-1, "Security
Requirements For Cryptographic Modules." Netscape is the only Internet
software vendor to comply with the FIPS 140-1 security standard, the
company said. (PR Newswire) See full story at
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4840046-429


-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul at pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces






From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Sep 11 17:40:16 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:40:16 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee on crypto
Message-ID: <19970912002736.17098.qmail@zipcon.net>



Declan McCullagh  writes:

 > So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that
 > the House Intelligence committee approved today. It
 > includes:

 > * Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year &
 > fine (maybe $250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held
 > in closed-door courtrooms, publishers of info about case to
 > be held in contempt of court.
[snip]

Clearly the entire House Intelligence Committee should be
"suitcased" immediately.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep 11 17:55:22 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:55:22 +0800
Subject: GAO's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithms
In-Reply-To: <199709110215.TAA27946@f51.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



> Do you want Gao's chaos cryptosytem's thesis
> written in English ?
> If you want it,Please send check or money order
> of 50 dollar to me.

  You want Gao's chaos cryptosystem have broken by CypherPunks?

  If you want it, Please sent check or money order of 800,000 Yen to
Carl Johnson.






From tm at dev.null  Thu Sep 11 18:15:38 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:15:38 +0800
Subject: World's Greatet Search Engine / Re: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <34189284.41F6@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
> Intelligence committee approved today. It includes:
> 
> * Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
> $250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
> courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.

How about a ban on sale of Congressional votes without using vaseline
on the citizen's backdoor?

World's Greatest Search Engine?
  It's the one that finds the names of the Justice Department officials
who went to jail for contempt of court when they defied Congress during
the INSLAW hearings.

TruthMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 18:17:02 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:17:02 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: <199709120049.CAA28921@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> I wonder how the SS at Stanford will react to my "Death Penalty for Waco
> Commander in Chief!" placard?

I'll ask around at alt.threaten.the.president, but they seem to have
lost a lot of posters, even though the group is only a week old.






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 18:20:17 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:20:17 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.

1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
restraining order against the party being sued." 

2. There are provisions for closing the proceedings -- at the request of
the "party against whom injunction is being sought." "Public disclosure of
the proceedings shall be treated as contempt of court." Can also be closed
if judge makes finding. 

3. You can request an advisory opinion from the Atty Gen to see if crypto
you're about to give out (even for free) violates the law. That will get
you off the hook during any prosecution. 

4. If DoJ loses at trial court, they get an expedited appeal. 

More interestingly, this gives courts including the FISA court (yes, the
secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.

You get notified not later than 90 days afterwards. There are a lot of
other "checks and balances" here that will be touted as safeguards.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Jim Ray wrote:
> 
> >Bernstein? I can understand (while not agreeing with...) my local
> >rag's opposition to the second amendment, but the total apathy
> >shown to dangers faced by the first is hard to fathom. I read the
> >Herald pretty carefully, yet there has been NOTHING this week on
> >the crypto-controversy. Nothing. While I often disagree with the
> >Miami Herald's reporting decisions (both substance and emphasis)
> >it is rare that I find it this scary. 
> 
> As Declan noted, when he wrote,
> 
> "* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
> $250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
> courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court."
> 
> this means newspapers may not write articles on this case, or the law.
> 
> This is why the "Miami Herald" dares not cover this.
> 
> (But seriously, the above example cited, that publishers of info being held
> in contempt of court, seems too wacky even for the current Congress. Have
> they no understanding of what a free press is? Free press applying to any
> of us, of course, and not just to the "officially recognized major news
> sources." I can't beleve that could withstand court scrutiny.)
> 
> And the prosecutions in closed-door courts would seem also to violate
> various provisions of the Constitution, including the 6th. (That the
> "foreign intelligence surveillance court" (FISUR) has not been challenged
> perhaps has to do with its origins under one of the Emergency Powers
> things, and its limited applicability to ordering surveillance. But to
> extend this to, say, the prosecution of someone, even a citizen, seems like
> a blatant "star chamber" situation.)
> 
> The rest of this verison is equally bad--sounding. (I mention "this
> version," because each of the committees--Intelligence, Commerce, National
> Security, whatever--is fighting to make their versions more Big Brotherish.)
> 
> What a fucking bunch of criminals.






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep 11 18:53:51 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:53:51 +0800
Subject: Killing & Communicating
Message-ID: 



Best Way To: 
1. Kill an evil politician without using a gun.
2. Plan the killing of a politician without using crypto.
3. Threaten the life of a politician without breaking the law.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------
1.
2.
3.
------------------------------------------------------






From j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep 11 19:03:40 1997
From: j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net (James S. Tyre)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:03:40 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3418A06A.2C40@worldnet.att.net>



> I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
> 
> 1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
> non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
> stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
> the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
> restraining order against the party being sued." 

Fucking A, Declan!  (A highly precise legal term of art for all you
laypeople out there.)  Even if these guys don't give a shit about the
First Amendment, or have forgotten how hard it is to get a prior
restraint Order, have they excised the Separation of Powers doctrine
from the Constitution too?

oh.forgot.national security.never mind.

-Jim






From Syniker at aol.com  Thu Sep 11 19:10:53 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:10:53 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <970911215147_-632361482@emout03.mail.aol.com>



I still maintain... they can diddle one another all they want
in washington... if ENOUGH people use crypto everyday...
there's bascially not a damned thing they can do about it...
If it becomes 'fashionable' to use it -- whatever it takes...
the sheer numbers will work...
Why not a 'crypto' YES WWW thing like our blackout pages???
If enough people put those perl lines on their hompage...
there you are -- instant mass 'export'.... boom...

Larry.






From ddt at pgp.com  Thu Sep 11 19:15:56 1997
From: ddt at pgp.com (Dave Del Torto)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:15:56 +0800
Subject: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
Message-ID: 



INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE OFFERS ALTERNATIVE ENCRYPTION LEGISLATION TO ADDRESS
SECURITY CONCERNS

SEPTEMBER 11, 1997
CONTACT (202) 225-4121

The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) today
approved, by voice vote, legislation proposing an alternative to pending
encryption legislation, known as the "Security and Freedom Through
Encryption Act" (H.R. 695).

The HPSCI amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 695 proposes
safeguards in the law to meet national security and law enforcement
concerns in the debate over the future of United States Encryption policy.

"All members of Congress, and particularly those of us on the Intelligence
Committee, have a responsibility to find the proper balance between forward
thinking commercial policies and the unquestioned need to protect the
security of the American people and America's national interests. We are
offering proposals to ensure that we do not plow full steam ahead into the
21st century's information age having seriously weakened our ability to
protect the national security, " said HPSCI Chairman Porter J. Goss
(Fl-14).

"American citizens have a right to their privacy and their access to the
freest possible markets. But they also have a right to their safety and
security. Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug cartels
that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace and
security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the United
States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under the
proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
activity and bring international criminals to justice," Goss said.

"The bill referred to the Intelligence Committee attempts to deal with
complex issues. The substitute adopted by the Committee addresses the
legitimate national security and law enforcement concerns that are simply
not addressed in H.R. 695. In that respect, the Committee substitute, in my
judgment, furthers the debate on these important matters," noted Ranking
Democrat Norm Dicks (WA-6).

The main elements of the Intelligence Committee's proposal are:

* Requires exports of encryption products to submit to a one-time review
and to include features or functions (that need not be enabled by the
manufacturer) allowing for immediate access to plaintext or to decryption
information;

* Requires that encryption products manufactured and distributed for sale
or use, or import for sale or use, in the United States after January 31,
2000 include features or functions that provide, upon presentment of a
court order, immediate access to plaintext data or decryption information
from the encryption provider;

* Does not change law enforcement's statutory requirements prior to
intercepting oral, wire, or electronic (wireless) communications, or law
enforcement's requirements prior to obtaining stored data. Law enforcement
will specifically be required to obtain a separate court order to have
data, including communications, decrypted;

* Allows for law enforcement access with delayed notification requirements,
similar to those allowed in current wiretap statutory provisions:

* Provide civil remedies and criminal penalties for unlawful access to or
disclosure of plaintext or decryption information;

* Require US government procurement of encryption technology that includes
functions or features allowing for immediate access to plaintext or
decryption information.

"Our committee has weighed in on these issues in the interest of furthering
the important debate now underway about how best to accomplish the multiple
goals of a sound encryption policy. Any encryption legislation we consider
must take a balanced approach to the national security, law enforcement,
public safety and privacy issues at stake. Our action today marks another
step in this process, which no doubt will continue to unfold in the days
and weeks ahead. I look forward to working with all sides on this debate as
we tackle this complex but important issue," Goss said.

The HPSCI, which sought and received sequential referral of H.R. 695, is
one of five House committees with jurisdiction on this issue. The
Committees on Judiciary, International Relations, National Security and
Commerce have also considered this legislation. The HPSCI expects to file
its committee report with the House tomorrow, meeting its deadline for
action set by the Speaker.

 -30-







From ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Sep 11 19:24:42 1997
From: ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca (Six)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:24:42 +0800
Subject: Forwarding of Federalist Papers from Canada for U.S. Citizens promoting democracy
Message-ID: <3418A45B.151A@sk.sympatico.ca>



If you have a desire to educate the citizens of foreign countries
as to the value of democracy, I would be pleased to forward a copy of
the Federalist Papers to any email address you desire, upon receipt 
of only the email addresses, with no instructions or requests.






From ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Sep 11 19:25:34 1997
From: ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca (Six)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:25:34 +0800
Subject: Strong Crypto Forwarding From Canada For U.S. Citizens
Message-ID: <3418A418.49BE@sk.sympatico.ca>



Anyone who wishes to export strong encryption to Internet addresses 
to which it is prohibited to do so by U.S. law may send a copy to me
as a file attachment, along with the addresses to send it to in the
message body.
I will accept up to 100 addresses per crypto program received for
forwarding.

If for any reason you feel that the terrorists who are ruling your
country might be able to persecute you for exercising free speech,
I would be happy to forward PGP 5.0 upon receipt of only the email
addresses, with no instructions or requests.

SixUALDV8






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 19:37:32 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:37:32 +0800
Subject: Information Please
Message-ID: <199709120224.EAA09212@basement.replay.com>



I am interested in researching possible legal grounds for taking armed
action against politicians governments and law enforcement agencies.

I would appreciate any pointers anyone might be able to provide to 
any material of this nature.

Of particular interest would be information as to the application of
International law in this area.

I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
rights by any government elected or not.

Thank you.
ps If possible I would like to receive this information before
   September 16th 1997 as it is a two day drive to southern 
   California and I would like at least one day to rest.






From whgiii at amaranth.com  Thu Sep 11 19:38:17 1997
From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:38:17 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709120224.WAA09072@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/11/97 
   at 03:38 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 

>* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
>$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
>courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of
>court.

>* Federal government computer purchases must use key escrow "immediate
>decryption" after 1998. Same with network established w/Federal funds.

>* Such products can be labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"

>* U.S. government may "not mandate the use of encryption standards" for
>the private sector

>* Export decisions aren't subject to judicial review

>* Defense & Commerce have controls of exports of crypto

>* Establishes Encryption Industry and Information Security Board

>* Internet providers, key recovery centers aren't liable if they turn
>over keys following legal standards

>* President can negotiate int'l agreements, perhaps punish noncompliant
>governments

>I'm still reading... More details shortly...

>-Declan

Declan,

Is there any way you can get me a copy of the amendment? My congressman is
on that committie and I intend to raise a stink down here on this.

Copies of the transcripts from the meeting and voting recored would be
helpfull.

I understand that 1 congresscritter voted against the amendment, do you
know which one it was? I would like to make sure it wasn't Joe
Scarborough.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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hiK+Ido+h2gbyI/IM+kYjqFX1Mmnw33u2HcPQgBWY1wOaZDHbE1s7bumkD2hkKAM
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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 20:03:24 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:03:24 +0800
Subject: Reno and Freeh to be assassinated!
Message-ID: <199709120245.EAA11496@basement.replay.com>



Dave Del Torto wrote: 
> "All members of Congress, and particularly those of us on the Intelligence
> Committee, have a responsibility to find the proper balance between forward
> thinking commercial policies and the unquestioned need to protect the
> security of the American people and America's national interests." said 
> HPSCI Chairman Porter J. Goss

I think we should all send Chairman Goss a letter of appreciation for
his offer to assassinate Child Murderer Janet Reno and Murderer Louis
Freeh. Most politicians are too cowardly to promise strong actions such
as this.

> Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug cartels
> that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
> chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace and
> security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the United
> States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under the
> proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
> activity and bring international criminals to justice," Goss said.

Chairman Goss is also going to prosecute the employees of the CIA as
well.
It is good to finally see someone taking a strong stance in this regard.

What a wonderful, wonderful man. He is probably a good husband and
father too.






From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Sep 11 20:15:29 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:15:29 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: 



At 3:38 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes:...

They're really foaming at the mouth back in 'ol DC.  Lets see:

(1) Free speech is dead.  c.f. Judge Pattel's opinion in the Burnstein case.
(2) The right to a public trial is gone too.
(3) The right to privacy is forgotten.  Close those clinics.
(4) If crypto is an armament, then the right to keep and bear it is gone.
(But that right was already in tatters.)
(5) The right to be safe from unreasonable search is gone if you can't
challenge a search in the courts.
(6) etc. etc.

And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so grim.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 11 20:17:42 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:17:42 +0800
Subject: TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS
Message-ID: <199709120311.XAA10259@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


The below message was posted to one of my mailing lists and I thought it
amy be of intrest here.



I found this in our database.  I've never seen it before.
I found it pretty interesting, despite being somewhat old.
Truncation in original.

                *       *       *       *       * 

                   TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS

                         Ross J. Anderson
             Cambridge University Computer Laboratory
                Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG
                Email: ross.anderson at cl.cam.ac.uk

                             Abstract

There are two ways of attacking smartcards - destructive reverse 
engineering of the silicon circuit (including the contents of  ROM), and
discovering the memory contents by other means; a well  equipped
laboratory can do both. Persistent amateurs have often  managed the
latter, and may shortly be able to do the former as  well. 

1 Reverse engineering the chip

A recent article[1] gives a good introduction to how reverse  engineering
can be carried out in a moderately well equipped  academic
microelectronics laboratory (there are three such in the  UK, and perhaps
two hundred academic or industrial facilities  worldwide which can carry
out such work). We will start off by  summarising it and giving some
background. 

1.1 How attacks are done

The authors of the article cited above worked at the Cambridge  University
microelectronics lab, which is part of the department  of physics. They
got interested in reverse engineering chips five  years ago to help an
industrial client locate manufacturing  defects. 

They built an apparatus which consists of a slightly modified  electron
beam lithography machine (this functions in effect as an  electron
microscope) and a PC with an image processing system (a  DCT chip and
locally written software). They then developed  techniques for etching
away a layer at a time without doing too  much damage. Conventional wet
etching causes too much havoc with  half micron chips, so dry etching is
used in which gases such as  CF4 or HF strip off layers of silica and
aluminium in turn. 

One of their innovations is a technique to show up N and P doped  layers
in electron micrographs. This uses the Schottky effect: a  thin film of a
metal such as gold or palladium is deposited on  the chip creating a diode
effect which can be seen with the 
electron beam. 

Finally, image processing software has been developed to spot the  common
chip features and reduce the initially fuzzy image of the  metal tracks
into a clean polygon representation. There are also  routines to get
images of successive layers, and of adjacent  parts of the chip, in
register. 

The system has been tested by reverse engineering the Intel 80386  and a
number of other devices. The 80386 took two weeks; it takes  about six
instances of a given chip to get it right. The output  can take the form
of a mask diagram, a circuit diagram or even a  list of the library cells
from which the chip was constructed. 

This is typical of the kind of attack which an academic lab can  mount.
Even more sophisticated attacks, invented at Sandia  National laboratories
and recently published[2], involve looking  through the chip.
Light-Induced Voltage Alteration is a non-
destructive technique that involves probing operating ICs from  the back
side with an infrared laser to which the silicon 
substrate is transparent. The photocurrents thus created allow  probing of
the device's operation and identification of logic  states of individual
transistors. Low-Energy Charge Induced  Voltage Alteration relies on a
surface interaction phenomenon  that produces a negative
charge-polarization wave using a low-
energy electron beam generated by a scanning electron microscope.  This
allows imaging the chip to identify open conductors and  voltage levels
without damage, although it does not operate  through metalization layers.


Of course, even more sophisticated techniques may be available in 
classified government facilities. 

1.2 The threat to smartcard systems

Smartcards typically have a few kilobytes of ROM, which being  metal can
be read with the above techniques; a few hundred bytes  of RAM, which
being cleared between transactions stores no long  term secrets; and a few
kilobytes of EEPROM, which typically  holds the user data and key
material. 

The techniques described above are not directly relevant to 
reading out EEPROM. However any laboratory at the level under 
consideration would be able to determine EEPROM contents using  microprobe
techniques. More simply, a reverse engineering 
operation would pinpoint the physical location of the write 
protect bit, which could then be reset using ultraviolet light. 

As mentioned, the number of organisations worldwide which can do  electron
beam lithography is of the order of 100-200. These 
potential attackers include a number of universities, all the big  chip
makers and the governments of the USA, Canada, the UK and  China. Of
these, the US and Chinese governments appear to have  the greatest
experience at chip breaking. 

For a respectable firm to join this club costs about $2m - $1.5m  for the
electron beam lithographer and ancilliary equipment, plus  a year's salary
for about five professionals to get it all going  (typically a physicist
to deal with the ion beams, a chemist to  deal with packaging, two
computer people to write software, and a  chip person to run the whole
operation). 

The number of club members may rise as more and more firms, 
especially in the Far East, start producing ASICs. However it is  not
likely that electron beam lithography will ever become a  really
widespread technology. The total number of sites with the  capability to
do regular hi-tech attacks might rise to about 1000  at most. 

An outsider without $2m still has a number of options. For ex-
ample, there are three universities in the UK alone which possess  the
necessary equipment (Cambridge, Edinburgh and Southampton)  and an
attacker might enrol for a PhD or other degree in order to  acquire access
and training. It is also possible to use more  primitive equipment at the
cost of spending months rather than  weeks on each reconstruction; this is
apparently the approach of  the Chinese government, and could be viable
where workers are  paid little (or are expecting a share of large criminal
profits). 

Finally, there are apparently places in the Far East, and at  least one in
Silicon Valley, which reverse engineer chips for  cash. How much cash, and
how many questions would be asked, are  not known to this writer. 

1.3 Possible defences

A number of copy trap features are incorporated into commercial  chip
designs. For example, we have heard of design elements that  look like a
transistor, but are in reality only a connection  between gate and source;
and 3-input NORs which function only as  2-input NORs. 

Many of these copier traps are based on holes in isolating layers  or on
tricks done in the diffusion layer with ion implantation  (based on the
assumption that it is hard to distinguish N from  P). However the layer
etching and Schottky techniques developed  by Haroun Ahmed's team can
detect such traps. 

Another possibility is to introduce complexity into the chip  layout and
to use nonstandard cell libraries. However the chip  still has to work,
which limits the complexity; and nonstandard  cells can be reconstructed
at the gate level and incorporated in  the recognition software. 

Finally, in the Clipper chip there are a number of silicon 
features, of which the most important is a fusible link system.  These
links are only fused after fabrication and hold the long  term key and
other secret aspects of the chip. Details can of  course be found in a
paper in the relevant data book[3], and from  the scanning electron
micrographs there, it is clear that the  secret information can be
recovered by sectioning the chip. This  technique has been used by
Professor Ahmed's team on occasion on  obscure features in other chips. 

Thus the effect of current silicon level copy traps is just to  slow down
the attacker. In fact, we have heard from a usually  reliable source that
Intel has reverse engineered the Clipper  chip, but that the results have
been classified. 

The same appears to be the case for chemical measures. Chips  intended for
classified military use are often protected by 
passivation layers of a tenacity never encountered in civilian 
packaging[4]. But here again, informed sources agree that with  enough
effort, techniques can be developed to remove them. 

1.4 Relevance to smartcard products

We understand that neither silicon copy traps not advanced 
passivation techniques are used by smartcard manufacturers in the  bulk of
their products. The marketing director of a smartcard  manufacturer said
that they simply had no demand from their users  for anything really
sophisticated[5]. The most that appears to be  done is an optical sensor
under an opaque coating[6]. 

Hi-tech techniques may indeed have been used by commercial 
pirates to duplicate satellite TV smartcards[7]. 

Recent postings to a TV hackers' mailing list recount how an 
undergraduate used nitric acid and acetone to remove ICs intact  from
Sky-TV smartcards; he then put them in the University's  electron beam
tester (an ICT 8020, also sold as the Advantest E  1340 - a 1991 machine).
The chips were run in a test loop, but he  had been unable to remove the
silicon nitride passivation layer;  the many secondary electrons removed
from this caused it to get  charged positive very quickly, which obscured
the underlying  circuit. He did not have access to a dry etching facility
to  remove this layer, and could get no further. However it is 
significant that a person with no funding or specialist knowledge  could
get even this far. 

However, amateur hackers have managed to break smartcard security  without
having to penetrate the device physically. Instead, they  have used flaws
in the design of the card's hardware or software  to determine its
contents. 

2 Determining the EEPROM contents

Many methods have been employed to determine the EEPROM contents  of
smartcards. In addition to the very general reverse  engineering
techniques described above, there are a lot of  shortcut attacks on
particular designs. 

2.1 How attacks are done

The following list is not exhaustive: 

o   raising the supply voltage above its design limit; 

o   cutting the supply voltage below its design limit; 

o   resetting random memory locations using ultraviolet light 
    until the read protect bit is found; 

o   exploiting misfeatures in the hardware, including the 
    manufacturer supplied ROM code; 

o   exploiting misfeatures in the customer written EEPROM code 
    (current attacks on UK satellite TV systems take this route); 

o   some combination of the above. 

The appendix contains accounts from a hacker mailing list of two  actual
attacks carried out on chips. 

2.2 Threat assessment

All systems have bugs, and so the level of threat to smartcard  systems
presented by exploitable loopholes is a function of how  many bugs remain
(i.e. how mature the design is) and how much  effort is spent in looking
for them (i.e. how many motivated  attackers there are). This in turn
depends on the application  area. 

Satellite TV systems attracted a great many attackers for 
historical reasons; in the USA, many rural households had got  into the
habit of watching satellite TV feeds as there were no  terrestrial
stations in range, even although these feeds were  intended for
rebroadcast rather than direct consumption. When the  feeds were
encrypted, the families who depended on them for their  news and
entertainment - and often could not buy decoders through  any legal
channel - were outraged. 

In Europe, a similar problem arose when the final season of 'Star  Trek:
The Next Generation' was encrypted. This program's fans  included many
with appropriate skills, and soon (March 94) there  appeared a program
called Season which decoded Sky TV. 

Since then, there has been a battle of wits between Sky and the  Trekkies,
which has probably cost Sky somewhere between $10 
million and $100 million. On May 18th 1994, Sky changed from  issue 07
cards to their new issue 09 card. Hackers refer to May  18th as Dark
Wednesday. The 09 card proved harder to hack but a  temporary solution
appeared in June. It only lasted a few weeks  before Sky changed codes
again. Though some attempts at an issue  09 Season were made, a code
change by Sky stopped it until just  before Christmas. 

Then no less than three new versions of Season appeared - two for  the PC
and one for the MAC. Successive code changes on January  4th and January
25th led to further updates of Season, and by  about 8th March all the
secrets in the Sky 09 card were known -  and published! Hackers are
awaiting the release of series 10 Sky  cards with relish. 

In addition to the attacks on satellite TV, there have been a  number of
attacks on banking systems and prepayment electricity  meter systems which
are documented in three of my recent papers  [8, 9, 10] Most of the
attacks documented there resulted from  similarly opportunistic
exploitation of design and operational  errors, and some of the target
systems were based on smartcards. 

Finally, some concern has been expressed that attack skills may  be
transferable. For example, a banking industry security expert  is worried
that the satellite TV hacking community might next  turn its attention to
eftpos systems. 

2.3 Possible defences

The main conclusion to be drawn from the above is probably that  just as
we do not know how to make a device which resists 
tampering by a funded organisation, we do not know how to build a  device
of any complexity to resist logical as opposed to physical  tampering. 

There are a number of other lessons. For example, companies which  rely on
smartcard systems should if possible avoid making a lot  of enemies.
Diversity of attack has been significant in pay-TV,  metering and banking
systems and just as a funded organisation  can break the silicon directly,
so one must expect that many  tinkering amateurs will eventually find a
flaw in any piece of  software. It is well known in the software testing
community that  a significant number of bugs come to light when a piece of

software is passed on to another tester or to a customer; this is  because
different testers and/or users exercise different parts  of the input
space[11]. 

It is also imprudent to start off with weak security and then  improve it
gradually in response to attacks. The satellite TV  people did this, and
trained up a community of hackers. At some  point, you must invest enough
to put clear water between your  systems and your opponents, and the
sooner you make this  investment the smaller it is likely to be. 

The main investment should be in getting the overall design 
right, or at least as right as one can, from the beginning. It is  unwise
to spend a lot of money on tamperproofing while ignoring  the much simpler
and dirtier attacks which exploit errors in  design and operation. Quality
control, and examination by 
multiple independent experts, should take priority over attempts  to mimic
the passivation techniques used by the military. 

After all, the three published attacks on Clipper all involve the  logical
design (key management protocols and modes of operation)  rather than
penetration of the device itself. 

3 Conclusion

At present, there are no portable tamperproof devices. If secrets  are
held on smartcards which are allowed outside protected  spaces, then both
physical and logical attacks should be 
expected. 

The scale of such attacks will depend on many things. If there is  a
capable motivated opponent, such as a chip maker or the  government of a
NATO country or China, then it must be assumed  that a complete
penetration will take at most weeks. If there are  many less capable but
still motivated opponents, then 
penetrations based on the opportunistic exploitation of design  flaws are
to be expected in due course. 

We conclude that systems based on portable tamper-resistant 
devices should be designed with caution. They should avoid 
motivating a determined attack on the cards, and the penetration  of a
small number of cards should not be fatal to the system  owner. 

These considerations interact; for example, if the scope of 
secrets kept within the card is limited so that breaking a card  allows
access to only one bank account, then it is unlikely that  an attack would
be economic to an attacker or prove more than a  minor nuisance to the
card issuer. 


                             APPENDIX

First account

This short essay will show you how to read the EPROM of an 
AMD87C51, with all security programmed. 

.... the SM-card I had was programmed with both Lock bits and it  was
impossible to read out the IROM. 

But the data sheet also tells: 
    To ensure proper functionality of the chip, the internally 
    latched value of the EA pin must agree with its external 
    state. 

Perhaps it was possible to confuse the processor. 

I build a small device with external EPROM (64KBytes) and RAM.  The EPROM
was coded with a monitor program in the upper address  range which gives
me the possibility to load and execute code by  control of a PC. Starting
the processor with external ROM access  disables the access of the
internal ROM and due to the latching  of the EA pin during RESET, changes
at the EA pin had no effect.  Also the MOVC returns only external ROM
values. 

Know my idea was to start the processor with internal ROM and  then to
confuse him so that he accesses the external EPROM and  run into the
monitor program. 

I tried ...

But reduction of the power supply voltage works. At about 1,5  Volt the
processor starts to access the external ROM. Rising the  voltage back to 5
Volt the processor (most of the times) still  run external, but with the
possibility of access to the internal  ROM... 

I programmed a small routine, which calls an address within the  internal
ROM and execute this. I started at the higher end of the  internal ROM and
decreased the calling address with each try by  10h. Most of the time the
processor hangs up. But at some 
addresses I got a return to the monitor program. So I analysed  this
addresses and prepared the registers in a way to verify that  the routine
could read ROM data. And I found the routine which  did this. So the
internal ROM code reads itself and returns  himself to the monitor program
for storage. It took about 3 days  to go through the ROM and find the
routine and one long week to  understand the code. 

Second account

This short story shows how to get access to a secured 87C51 
microcontroller. It's a different way, than the one described by  .....
Referring to his article, I assume, that this 87C51  microcontrollers and
their features (including security bits) are  known. 

The idea was, that the security bits are not located near the  EPROM array
on the silicon. After some tests in erasing standard  EPROMS, I had the
right tools to try it on a real device: With a  mask designed from black,
thick paper with a small hole in it, I  started to lighten the silicon on
the outer edges and sides.  Moving the mask carefully and checking the
security bits (by  reading the device in a microcontroller programmer)
after each  try is a long job. I did additional tests to open the chip (by
 removing the windows or dividing the ceramic carrier material).  But this
always led to permanent damage to the chip (broken 
silicon, destroyed wires between pads and pins), so I gave this  up. So
after 4 destroyed chips the fifth was the right one. You  have to be sure,
that your mask is good prepared and the erasing  light doesn't diffuse
across the chip. No I'am able to erase such  a device in less than 10
minutes. But ... it's only easy if the  device is one of AMD or Philips.
The Intel devices have a window,  which is formed like a lens (the silicon
looks very big). On this  devices it's nearly impossible to lighten a
specific part of the  silicon. The job is easier on devices with standard
window and a  _big_ EPROM Array (seems to be devices aged two or more
years). 


                                         . . . if somebody is  interested
in the 4K codes of the MasterCard (bad and dirty code)  or MovieCard (very
elegant algorithm and i/o implementation),  just gimme' a direct mail.
Disassembled and commented listings in  WinWord format are also available
(comments in mixed English and  German language). 


                            REFERENCES

[1]  'Layout Reconstruction of Complex Silicon Chips', S Blythe, B 
     Fraboni, S Lall, H Ahmed, U de Riu, IEEE J. of Solid-State 
     Circuits v 28 no 2 (Feb 93) pp 138-145 

[2]  'Two New Imaging Techniques Promise To Improve IC Defect 
     Identification', C Ajluni, Electronic Design Vol 43 No 14 (10 
     July 1995) pp 37-38 

[3]  'Conducting Filament of the Programmed Metal Electrode 
     Amorphous Silicon Antifuse', KE Gordon, RJ Wong, 
     International Electron Devices Meeting, Dec 93; reprinted as 
     pp 6-3 to 6-10, QuickLogic Data Book, 1994 

[4]  see FIPS PUB 140-1 section 4 level 4: "Removal of the coating 
     shall have a high probability of resulting in serious damage 
     to the module" 

[5]  Philippe Maes, GemPlus, during a panel discussion at Cardis 
     94 

[6]  message <CovCG9.581 at apollo.hp.com> posted by Anne Anderson of 
     Hewlett-Packard aha at apollo.HP.COM to sci.crypt 26 Apr 1994 

[7]  apparently tiny jets of hot acid have been used to remove the 
     passivation layers over parts of the chip at a time 

[8]  'Why Cryptosystems Fail'

[9]  'Liability and Computer Security - Nine Principles'

[10] 'Cryptographic Credit Control in Pre-payment Metering 
     Systems' All these can be got from 
     http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk:/users/rja14/

[11] 'Thermodynamic description of the defects in large 
     information processing systems', RM Brady, RC Ball, RJ 
     Anderson, to appear


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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KAo4ibq7Qe+zJaIOEfMRc8sjRJgVjBHeey7XD0ApvRX9SK0wY0x44KxruBTJqzSq
x/o7jiI8efMBTLuIuJzPqnMYsMYdCrcgmRDzyMj+TSI8cFu5NZKkSaSWVajtq7D1
svv5/ACuQos=
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From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 20:18:33 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:18:33 +0800
Subject: Pro-censorship lobbyist calls for AOL boycott
Message-ID: 



CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) - Marc Klaas, whose daughter Polly was abducted from
her bedroom and killed in 1993, is calling for a boycott of American
Online until it stops allowing access to a Florida woman who posts writing
and art by serial killers on the Internet.
	Klaas particularly objects to the work of Keith Hunter Jesperson,
who is serving three life sentences in Oregon for killings in the
Northwest and is charged with one murder in Wyoming.
	"America Online is hiding behind freedom of speech in allowing
this monster to have a public forum," said Klaas, who was in Wyoming this
week to promote the Klaas Foundation for Children, which he established
after his daughter's slaying.
	Officials for the nation's largest Internet access provider said
Thursday that some material from the home page of Sondra London of
Jacksonville, Fla., would be removed within 24 hours.
	"We find the information that is in this site and in some of the
(associated AOL sites) offensive and objectionable and we did not wish to
have our name associated with it," said AOL spokeswoman Tricia Primrose.
	London said she had removed from her home page one part of
Jesperson's material - the "self-start serial killer kit" - on the urging
of an AOL attorney who said he was investigating the site.
	In a letter to Wyoming Gov. Jim Geringer, AOL Senior Vice
President and general counsel George Vradenburg III said the material was
removed and that none of it was "authored, sponsored or condoned by AOL."
	"They missed the point," Geringer said. "They failed to
acknowledge the remaining material, such as Jesperson referring to his
victims as piles of garbage."
	Geringer, who has asked Oregon officials to extradite Jesperson to
Wyoming so he can stand trial in a 1995 slaying, said he supports Klaas'
call for a boycott. He also asked AOL on Thursday to remove the rest of
Jerperson's material.
	He called London's Web page "a direct pipeline for his rantings
and ravings and advocacy of serial killing."
	London has said she feels it is important to post such information
to gain insight into how serial killers think.
	Polly Klaas' killer, Richard Allen Davis, is on death row in
California. None of his work has appeared on London's Web page.






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 20:37:02 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:37:02 +0800
Subject: Privacy secrecy law for driver's records struck down
Message-ID: 





	AM-Driver's Privacy,0594

	Judge blocks driver's records secrecy law in
S.C.

By MONA BRECKENRIDGE

Associated Press Writer

	COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) - A federal law that prohibits
the release of personal information from driver's
licenses and car registrations is unconstitutional, a
judge ruled Thursday in blocking enforcement of the
law in South Carolina starting this weekend.
	State Attorney General Charlie Condon had challenged
the Driver's Privacy Protection Act of 1994 on behalf
of media groups from five states and two national
media organizations. Condon contended the law was an
improper infringement on states' rights.
	U.S. District Judge Dennis Shedd agreed, ruling that
Congress "clearly exceeded its power."
	He said the government, which argued that the law
would prevent stalkers from tracking their victims,
failed to show that it was necessary to protect a
constitutional right of privacy.
	Drivers should not expect their names, license
numbers, addresses, phone numbers and photographs to
be private, the judge said.
	Shedd's ruling blocks enforcement of the law, which
is to take effect nationwide on Saturday, in South
Carolina only. The only other state to challenge the
law so far has been Oklahoma, where the case is
pending.
	"This is a real victory for open governments and
open records," said Bill Rogers, executive director of
the South Carolina Press Association. "South Carolina
already has a very good law to protect people from
stalkers and harassing phone calls."
	Thirty-four states make motor vehicle records public
in some form, according to the Reporters Committee for
Freedom of the Press.
	The federal law would restrict almost everything
in state motor vehicle records that can be looked up
using a license plate or driver's license numbers,
unless an individual agrees to its release.
	The law was sponsored by Sen. Barbara Boxer,
D-Calif., in response to the 1989 slaying of actress
Rebecca Schaeffer, who was killed at her California
home by a man who used a private investigator to
obtain her driver's records.
	The law, however, might not have prevented
Schaeffer's slaying, since it would keep motor vehicle
records open to police, private investigators,
insurance companies, credit agencies and
direct-marketing companies.
	States that did not designate their records as
secret could face federal penalties of $5,000 a day.
State workers who give out such information could be
penalized $2,500 each time.
	"We are very disappointed by Judge Shedd's decision.
We think that driver's privacy protection is an
important anti-crime measure," said David Sandretti,
Boxer's spokesman in Washington.
	Justice Department spokesman Joe Krovisky said he
could not comment because the agency had not seen
Shedd's ruling. Agency officials have 60 days to
decide whether to appeal to the 4th U.S. Circuit Court
of Appeals, he said.
	Shedd relied partly on the U.S. Supreme Court's June
ruling on the so-called Brady Law, in which the
justices said Congress could not make local police do
criminal background checks on people who want to buy
handguns.
	"Unquestionably, the states have been, and remain
... responsible for maintaining motor vehicle records,
and these records constitute property of the states,"
Shedd wrote.
	The media groups that challenged the law were the
press associations of South Carolina, North Carolina,
Virginia, West Virginia and Maryland-Delaware, and the
Newspaper Association of America and the American
Society of Newspaper Editors.
	  







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 20:37:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:37:05 +0800
Subject: Forwarding of Federalist Papers from Canada for U.S. Citizens promoting democracy
Message-ID: <199709120307.FAA13457@basement.replay.com>



Six wrote: 
> If you have a desire to educate the citizens of foreign countries
> as to the value of democracy, I would be pleased to forward a copy of
> the Federalist Papers to any email address you desire, upon receipt
> of only the email addresses, with no instructions or requests.

I think we should all send a copy of the Federalist Papers to Sadaam
Hussein. It would be the American thing to do.

Six also wrote:
> If for any reason you feel that the terrorists who are ruling your
> country might be able to persecute you for exercising free speech,
> I would be happy to forward PGP 5.0 upon receipt of only the email
> addresses, with no instructions or requests.

I am certain we can trust Six not to mix up the addresses with no
instructions and no requests meant for forwarding the Federalist
Papers with the addresses with no instructions and no requests meant
for forwarding strong encryption.

TrustingMonger






From eff at dev.null  Thu Sep 11 20:41:11 1997
From: eff at dev.null (EFF)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:41:11 +0800
Subject: Government promotes strong crypto!!!
Message-ID: <3418B6A4.3E7F@dev.null>



[Electronic Forgery Foundation]


[Washington, DC]
  In a startling turn of events, the U.S. government has come out in
support of the use of strong encryption.
  In order to give incentives to criminals to use strong encryption,
the government has announced that the penalty for using weak encryption
in the commission of a crime will be an extra five years in prison.

Lying Nazi Fuck Freeh stated, "Theoretically, the law applies to those
criminals who use strong encryption, as well, but in practice, we will
not be able to prosecute, because if we can't break it, then we have
no way to prove it is being used for criminal purposes."

Dog-faced Child Murderer Reno stated that the high level of publicity
given to the effective use of encryption in crime has served the
government's aim of making certain that the vast majority of criminals
will recognize the value of using encryption to hide evidence.

Lying Nazi Slut Dying FineSwine stated that she opposed the use of
strong encryption by child pornographers because she and the vice
police had grown so accustomed to high-quality computer graphics of
child pornography, that they just couldn't get off on photographs any
more.
Marked for deletion SwineSwine said that she would like to comment more
on child pornography, but talking about it made her hot, and she then
rushed of to the ladies room.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  This message was forged under the auspices of the Electronic Forgery
  Foundation. Any misuse or abuse of this message will probably give
  your Congressman a hard on. They're weird that way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 11 20:52:06 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:52:06 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709120326.XAA10550@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/11/97 
   at 08:07 PM, Bill Frantz  said:

>At 3:38 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes:...

>They're really foaming at the mouth back in 'ol DC.  Lets see:

>(1) Free speech is dead.  c.f. Judge Pattel's opinion in the Burnstein
>case. (2) The right to a public trial is gone too.
>(3) The right to privacy is forgotten.  Close those clinics. (4) If
>crypto is an armament, then the right to keep and bear it is gone. (But
>that right was already in tatters.)
>(5) The right to be safe from unreasonable search is gone if you can't
>challenge a search in the courts.
>(6) etc. etc.

>And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
>mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
>sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so
>grim.

No what is grim is the fact that 90% of Armericans don't care.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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giJo9VJljFwv/qtzI1D/m1dcYfqZFIrbg7X8ee5/AcpiuRqIHx5j7wk91uYtcnfU
nplFRD/8DgPaGXETYKwFtqzaS9BtCuB6URjQz2aobW0FbQnnPVWnRnenEglOy8Oc
krl8mdiLP3s=
=Ja08
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com  Thu Sep 11 21:16:46 1997
From: hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com (Hugh Daniel)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:16:46 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Message-ID: <199709120403.VAA12441@ecotone.xanadu.com>




What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, ???
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Sep 11 21:17:53 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:17:53 +0800
Subject: Taxless society concerns
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709120403.XAA00606@smoke.suba.com>



> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm? 

	Their Family, Children & other loved ones, or paid care givers.

> How is such care going to be payed for? 

	Well, if their family/children do it, they will pay necessary costs.
Otherwise I guess they will just have to save up for it. 

> How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

	Fees. 
 
> sympathiser, let me say that i am disgusted at the amount of money spent
> by governments around the world on military equipment and personnel. If
> such a taxless society were to eventuate there would be *hopefully* that
> much more money floating around to help those who need it most.

	Don't assume their need in any way shape or form puts any obligation
on me. 
 






From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Thu Sep 11 21:19:17 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:19:17 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> talking about more crypto-in-a-crime restrictions. The Commerce Committee,
> I'm told, got briefed by Freeh in a closed-door hearing yesterday evening
> without staff present.

Make that yesterday morning. I understand the briefing lasted from 10 am
to 1:30 pm.

-Declan







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 21:25:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:25:07 +0800
Subject: Bean Counting
Message-ID: <199709120410.GAA19194@basement.replay.com>




  After giving careful consideration to the amount of press coverage
dedicated to the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and 
judging the proportion of outrage over the deaths of the children in
the daycare center compared to the amount of outrage over the remaining
victims, I have come to the conclusion that in the interests of saving
lives terrorists and psychos should be encouraged to murder the youngest
children possible.
  While my studies are preliminary, they indicate that terroists and
madmen would only have to kill half as many people to achieve comparable
results in the arena of publicity and public attention if they were to
confine their slaughter to young children. This figure declines further
if the children are white, and even further yet if they are cute.
  By promoting cute young white children as the target of preference
for terroists and crazy people, we could save innumerable lives each
and every year.

Next Week: The role of Senior Citizens in slow check-out lines.







From snow at smoke.suba.com  Thu Sep 11 21:28:49 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:28:49 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <199709120326.XAA10550@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199709120422.XAA00715@smoke.suba.com>



> >And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
> >mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
> >sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so
> >grim.
> No what is grim is the fact that 90% of Armericans don't care.

	Hell, 95% can't understand what is going on. If they did, I bet 
at least 20% would care.






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep 11 21:32:12 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:32:12 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <01BCBEC8.8E34E8A0.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911210020.0070ba78@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 03:38 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 
>
>* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
>$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
>courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.

Does the bill retain the 5 years first offense, 10 years second offense
provisions for using crypto in the comission of a crime?

Let's see: Lucky sells five copies of PGP. That's 5+(5+4*10)=50 years in
prison. Or is it (5*5)+(5+4*10)=70 years? Doesn't make much of a difference
at my age, I suppose.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep 11 21:32:33 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:32:33 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911212546.0069c654@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 06:12 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
>
>1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
>non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
>stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
>the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
>restraining order against the party being sued." 

They get an *automatic* TRO?

[...]
>More interestingly, this gives courts including the FISA court (yes, the
>secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
>they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
>lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.

Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
court?


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 21:32:49 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:32:49 +0800
Subject: null
Message-ID: <199709120415.GAA19616@basement.replay.com>



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Version: 2.6.2
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VeYEEGmHBrSSDrVQ2fqEkFGGgIIEoQx7Uf4B
=7hVR
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 21:40:16 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:40:16 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970911212546.0069c654@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



Yep, they get an automatic TRO. Amazing, huh, what National Security
arguments can do?

Not sure if we can find out much about the FISA court. Very clandestine. 
WashPostMag ran something a few months ago. I'm copying this to David, who
probably knows more about it than anyone else I know. 

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 06:12 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
> >
> >1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
> >non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
> >stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
> >the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
> >restraining order against the party being sued." 
> 
> They get an *automatic* TRO?
> 
> [...]
> >More interestingly, this gives courts including the FISA court (yes, the
> >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
> >they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
> >lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.
> 
> Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> court?
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green 
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 






From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep 11 21:42:36 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:42:36 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970911204423.0074d160@netcom10.netcom.com>



Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hugh Daniel 
To: cypherpunks-announce at toad.com
Subject:  Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting, This Satuday September 13th
Reply-to: hugh at xanadu.com


What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, ???
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
        being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
        Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
        directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
        2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
        "cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
        (eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
        though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 



--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 11 21:43:24 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:43:24 +0800
Subject: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
Message-ID: <19970912043041.25998.qmail@hotmail.com>



Does anybody know MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm ?
If you know it,Please send e-mail to me.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 11 21:43:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:43:45 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
Message-ID: 




OK, so the imminent legislation will ban sale or distribution unescrowed
crypto products after 1999 or 2000 or whatever. Exact details unclear. But
I see no language declaring existing products to be contraband. (Though
such language could still come, of course...nothing would surprised me at
this point.)

So, what about Alice and Bob using PGP 5.0 or Explorer with S-MIME, or
whatever. Plenty of crypto already out there. They can drop their encrypted
text into whatever mail program or browser they're using.

If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.

Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE bills
that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs (before the
ban)? Any way they could make it illegal to use PGP or Lotus Notes or
whatever in conjunction with a mailer or browser?


If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
public domain site, etc.

(An old strategy, and one great progress has been made on. But now we have
to really go into high gear, to _really_ get crypto widely deployed.)

Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
one with many advantages.)

The war criminals in Washington will have a real hard time rounding up the
crypto deployed between now and D-Day.

Fucking criminals. Fight the _real_ criminals. Nuke em til they glow.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep 11 21:50:33 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:50:33 +0800
Subject: Bean Counting II
Message-ID: 




Does anyone know if the government has released any firm figures on the
number of lives that would be saved from terrorist activities with the
outlawing of strong encryption and mandatory key escrow?

If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because 
those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.

I think that in the interests of the greatest number of citizens, the 
government should supply solid figures as to the body count that would
be required to negate the need for laws against strong encryption.
Also, the government should provide a separate figure for how many 
lives of legislators would need to be lost in order to balance the
threat of strong encryption. I imagine that it would take far fewer
Congressman's lives to balance it out than it would average citizen's
lives.

Call your Congressman and ask if these figures are available.
In order to get the most help possible, begin the conversation by
asking the Congressman if he is in favor of saving lives.

BeanCounter






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep 11 21:51:28 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:51:28 +0800
Subject: Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
Message-ID: 



Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.







From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 11 21:54:47 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:54:47 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709120500.AAA18465@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:39:52 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?

> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.
> 
> Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
> the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
> leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
> dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
> one with many advantages.)

How about the system file i/o level?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep 11 21:54:47 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:54:47 +0800
Subject: Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed
Message-ID: 




Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 21:55:39 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:55:39 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <970911215147_-632361482@emout03.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 



Your general idea is right-on. If lots of folks use crypto, it'll be
politically more difficult for the government to ban it. But do many
browser users even //know// they're using an encrypted channel? Probably
not. This is an education issue as well as a deployment issue.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 Syniker at aol.com wrote:

> I still maintain... they can diddle one another all they want
> in washington... if ENOUGH people use crypto everyday...
> there's bascially not a damned thing they can do about it...
> If it becomes 'fashionable' to use it -- whatever it takes...
> the sheer numbers will work...
> Why not a 'crypto' YES WWW thing like our blackout pages???
> If enough people put those perl lines on their hompage...
> there you are -- instant mass 'export'.... boom...
> 
> Larry.
> 
> 






From dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au  Thu Sep 11 21:59:30 1997
From: dformosa at st.nepean.uws.edu.au (? the Platypus {aka David Formosa})
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:59:30 +0800
Subject: Taxless society concerns
In-Reply-To: <199709120403.XAA00606@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, snow wrote:

[...]

> > How is such care going to be payed for? 
> 
> 	Well, if their family/children do it, they will pay necessary costs.
> Otherwise I guess they will just have to save up for it. 

What about orfins?  I dout thay would be able to save up money,  what
about thouse whos emplyers where not willing to pay them more then what is
needed to live to the next week?

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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ti13g5eNDP3gO1yKD7bfm8dAgOq87GXtrzmursgIZNHwkvqU1O6mHMlG4HCS8WfI
iV2sN745OVS2i0Guqs1fM+q0Tn56oRj4HEQBibQRuzNWW3VI7mBjZYUn0AtcM5Z2
F4xlC7L7PYE=
=JI2t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 21:59:38 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:59:38 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.WAA09072@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: 



William,

There was a vote in Nat Sec earlier this week. That was fortyfive-one, I
recall, to gut SAFE. I think Smith voted against it. Today's vote was in
the supersecret Intelligence committee, which met behind closed doors this
morning and approved the domestic restrictions.

-Declan


> Is there any way you can get me a copy of the amendment? My congressman is
> on that committie and I intend to raise a stink down here on this.
> 
> Copies of the transcripts from the meeting and voting recored would be
> helpfull.
> 
> I understand that 1 congresscritter voted against the amendment, do you
> know which one it was? I would like to make sure it wasn't Joe
> Scarborough.






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep 11 22:01:51 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:01:51 +0800
Subject: Different Ways to Kill AOL Members
Message-ID: 



Different Ways to Kill AOL Members:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 22:09:13 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:09:13 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970911210020.0070ba78@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



The new SAFE bill retains the five-ten provisions. Remember how the crypto
in a crime provision was narrowed in (I recall) the Judiciary committee?
It's not that narrow anymore; it's been broadened and is much more
encompassing. Small surprise.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 03:38 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
> >Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 
> >
> >* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
> >$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
> >courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.
> 
> Does the bill retain the 5 years first offense, 10 years second offense
> provisions for using crypto in the comission of a crime?
> 
> Let's see: Lucky sells five copies of PGP. That's 5+(5+4*10)=50 years in
> prison. Or is it (5*5)+(5+4*10)=70 years? Doesn't make much of a difference
> at my age, I suppose.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green 
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 






From david at amazing.com  Thu Sep 11 22:18:03 1997
From: david at amazing.com (David H Dennis)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:18:03 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>



> Your general idea is right-on. If lots of folks use crypto, it'll be
> politically more difficult for the government to ban it. But do many
> browser users even //know// they're using an encrypted channel? Probably
> not. This is an education issue as well as a deployment issue.

I must admit that I didn't think much about crypto until this came up.

You know, I think there are a couple of types of Libertarians. 

Type one says that government doesn't do anything right, because
collectively they are incompetent, in the same way many people in big
companies make bad decisions.  Government is like the biggest company
in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  In
addition, government is a way to try and reconcile opposing views, and
so we rarely get a "pure" version of anything - in fact, we often get
contradictory results, such as tobacco subsidies colliding with
tobacco restrictions.  Because of this, smaller government is better -
solve the tobacco problem by enacting /neither/ subsidies nor
restrictions, and save a whole pile of money and effort.

Type two says that government doesn't do anything right because of
actual malicious actions within government - that government is
a conspiracy between fat cat businessmen and nasty spooks, and
that they very often, quite deliberately do the wrong thing.

I've traditionally been a Type One libertarian, but I think you can
only explain the current crypto efforts with Type Two.

I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government
Warrior, able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, thinks of
all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
fit in a Liberal one?

D






From j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep 11 22:22:45 1997
From: j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net (James S. Tyre)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:22:45 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3418CDA3.2300@worldnet.att.net>



Nice idea Declan, but what's "lots of folks"?  Rhetorical question --
what percentage of the populace in the U.S. is even on the net?  Another
one -- of those, what percentage even know what PGP is?

On one list I'm on, people whine all too often how difficult PGP is; on
another, most probably would think PGP is a drug.  Hmmm ....

Of course education of less well-versed net users is important.  But if
we're talking the Now instead of the Future, education of those not even
on the net may be more important.

So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
think) why crypto is important?

-Jim

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Your general idea is right-on. If lots of folks use crypto, it'll be
> politically more difficult for the government to ban it. But do many
> browser users even //know// they're using an encrypted channel? Probably
> not. This is an education issue as well as a deployment issue.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 Syniker at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > I still maintain... they can diddle one another all they want
> > in washington... if ENOUGH people use crypto everyday...
> > there's bascially not a damned thing they can do about it...
> > If it becomes 'fashionable' to use it -- whatever it takes...
> > the sheer numbers will work...
> > Why not a 'crypto' YES WWW thing like our blackout pages???
> > If enough people put those perl lines on their hompage...
> > there you are -- instant mass 'export'.... boom...
> >
> > Larry.
> >
> >






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 11 22:22:45 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:22:45 +0800
Subject: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970912043041.25998.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Does anybody know MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm ?
>If you know it,Please send e-mail to me.
>

You want me play Misty for you? You send me $2500, I play Misty.

Like you do, I take much money, chop chop.


(Now shut the fuck up and get the hell off our list with your demands for
money to explain your bullshit one time pad scheme.)


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 22:24:18 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:24:18 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: 



Libertarianism is the only coherent ideology when it comes to the
Internet. I'm told there may be a piece appearing shortly on HotWired
arguing just this. At the Libertarian Party convention last summer, a
bunch of cypherpunks including some on f-c showed up and made the platform
even more pro-crypto and anti-GAK. I wrote about this for HotWired then. 

But to defend modern liberals for a moment (I'm a recovering one. Yes, it
takes a long time.), groups like EPIC and the ACLU are generally
liberal-ish and they're quite good on encryption. 

Of course, the Democrats in Congress are some of the biggest anti-crypto
folks around. 

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:
> I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government
> Warrior, able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, thinks of
> all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 11 22:27:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:27:37 +0800
Subject: Bean Counting II
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:26 PM -0700 9/11/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Does anyone know if the government has released any firm figures on the
>number of lives that would be saved from terrorist activities with the
>outlawing of strong encryption and mandatory key escrow?
>
>If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
>judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
>in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
>interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
>I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
>those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.

This is a worthless and dangerous argument to make. If you can't see why,
you have no business writing articles on this list.

Hint: "The greatest good for the greatest number" is passe.

--Tim May





>I think that in the interests of the greatest number of citizens, the
>government should supply solid figures as to the body count that would
>be required to negate the need for laws against strong encryption.
>Also, the government should provide a separate figure for how many
>lives of legislators would need to be lost in order to balance the
>threat of strong encryption. I imagine that it would take far fewer
>Congressman's lives to balance it out than it would average citizen's
>lives.
>
>Call your Congressman and ask if these figures are available.
>In order to get the most help possible, begin the conversation by
>asking the Congressman if he is in favor of saving lives.
>
>BeanCounter


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 22:27:47 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:27:47 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3418CDA3.2300@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 





On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, James S. Tyre wrote:

> So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
> never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
> think) why crypto is important?

You can make general pro-privacy arguments about wiretapping, which is
what I did in my Netly column yesterday. Or you can describe crypto in
detail, which is what I did in my February 1997 Internet Underground
feature. 

-Declan







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 22:43:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:43:36 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709120531.HAA26749@basement.replay.com>



It is quite probable that this has been said before.  In case it hasn't,
however, I feel compelled to point out that mandatory key escrow/recovery
could likely mean an economic disaster of unimaginable proportions. 

   Okay, key escrow, whether by the goobermint or a contracted third-party,
is beginning to scare the living crap out of me.  Okay, let's assume that
the ammended SAFE passes and is promptly signed into law(despite what the
administration says, I don't think anyone believes for a second that it
would be signed without hesitation). It's a simple matter for the Commerce
Dept. to modify their review criteria to specify that the key
escrow/recovery feature be enabled and that the end user not be able to
disable it.

   This obviously doesn't affect anyone who can get their hands on the
source and comment out a line or two, but think about what happens with
big corporations, especially financial ones.  It's highly likely that a
good number of them will use crypto software just the way Big Brother
would like them to, happily sending their keys off so that our friends in
Washington can keep them nice and safe.

   Now think about this:  You're Joe Random Govt. Worker at the official
secret key repository, and there's a budget crisis going on - instead of
paychecks, you're getting I.O.U.'s.  Your terminal has access to
thousands, perhaps millions, of secret keys.  You grab one of CitiBank's,
forge a few transactions, and 30 seconds later your Swiss bank account is
a few million dollars fatter and according to the digital signature, the
transaction originated in L.A..

   Of course, one doesn't even have to be an underpaid govt. worker to
join in on the fun.  Just find a buffer overflow in the key repository's
daemon software and trick it into tacking on a few secret keys with its
"Big Brother thanks you for your cooperation." packet.  Considering that
even the CIA can't keep their severs secure, why should ANYONE, even
thouse naive enough to trust the govt. to respect their privacy, ever
trust such a corrupt and insecure organization with their encyption keys.

   Along the same lines, it's almost certain that someone is eventually
going to fat-finger some code and keys are going to get sent in the clear,
posted publicly, or something equally bad - with the government running
the "key management infastructure", it'll probably be a 12 year old kid
who got bored with Minesweeper who causes the global economic collapse.







From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Thu Sep 11 22:44:09 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:44:09 +0800
Subject: Taxless society concerns
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Warpy wrote:

> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm? How is such care going to be payed for? How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

Haven't you ever heard of ZPG? The problem with Medicare is that the
taxpayers are paying to keep the old people alive, no matter how close to
death they are!! Then, on top of that, we give them free money!

Come on people, we already have nigh 6 billion people on this planet, I
think we can stand to lose anybody over 65.

> But the question remains. In such a taxless society, and little or no
> government, how are those less fortunate than us going to be cared for?

As for the less fortunate, welcome to Evolution 101: Survival of the
Fittest, where fit means good education, good job, and enough money to
giev your kids the same.

-- Run.exe
  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
                -- Albert Einstein
runexe at ntplx.net http://www.ntplx.net/~runexe/ PGP encrypted mail prefered










From lizard at dnai.com  Thu Sep 11 22:51:12 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:51:12 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970911223056.00cd1da8@dnai.com>



At 10:05 PM 9/11/97 -0700, James S. Tyre wrote:

>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>think) why crypto is important?
>
"Excuse me, Mr. Man On The Street...would you give an IRS auditor the keys
to your house, without him telling you if he would ever use them or if you
were being audited?"
"Of course not!"
"How would you feel about the government requiring that when you buy a
lock, you have to give a key to the IRS, and that they ought to be allowed
to sneak into your house at will, without you even being notified you've
been charged with a crime?"
"That's absurd!"
"Well, that's what they're trying to do now."
"I'll write my Congressman or woman right now!"

(Lizard is currently DLing the PGP plug-in for his beloved Eudora. Never
let it be said I can't be a nonconformist like everybody else!)

And here we see more of the cult's recruitment. Note how he always
talks about the *GOVERNMENT* and the *IRS*. Why doesn't he talk about Pepsi
or GM wanting the keys to your house? More of this 'government bad,
business good' propaganda we've all grown so sick and tired of, being
shoved down our throats. Small wonder this list has gone to hell!" 






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 11 22:56:47 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:56:47 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:

>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>think) why crypto is important?

This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"

Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
staff for education, etc.

And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.

What we _can_ do is prepare for a long guerilla war with the bastards. 80%
of the population will willingly trade away their rights ("what have I got
to hide?") for more perceived security. Ben Franklin saw this 230 years ago.

It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
Congress will slightly relax their laws.


And in a war, gotta break some eggs.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 23:02:04 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:02:04 +0800
Subject: 3% to Freedom
Message-ID: <199709120547.HAA28222@basement.replay.com>



Just heard a Canadian MP state that he was voting in favour of gun
registration because 52% of his constituents were in favor of it.

Killing 3% of the people to save the rights of 48% of them seems like
a fair trade-off to me.

We could kill them with hammers until we killed enough that they passed
hammer registration laws. Then we could switch to scissors. Then forks.
Then rocks.
Of course, it would be impossible to bust all the people who were in
possession of unregisterd rocks in their yards, so they would probably
have to use selective enforcement against just blacks and longhairs
and the like.
Am I ready to run for public office, or do I need to get stupider?
If so, then I propose that we start killing people by filling their
mouths with dirt, then we can pass dirt registration laws. Then we can
kill people by filling their lungs with air until they burst and we
can pass air registration laws. Then we can leave people out in the
sun until they die and pass sun registration laws.
"The reason I pulled you over, guys, is because the sun came up. Unless
one of you cops to possessing it, I'm going to have to take you all in."

Am I stupid enough to be a cop, now?
If not, then we can kill people by taking them to the roofs of buildings
and throwing them to the ground. Then we can pass roof and ground
registration laws.
"Hey, pal. Your feet are on the ground. You got a permit?"
"Sorry pal, this permit is for a different piece of ground. I'm going
to have to take you in. And, since the sun is out, you're going to get
an extra five years for possession of the sun in the commission of a
crime."







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 11 23:11:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:11:14 +0800
Subject: Soldiers
Message-ID: <199709120549.HAA28490@basement.replay.com>



Is there a small country that a thousand of us could go to and get 
citizenship and then have the country declare war on the U.S. after
we are all back in the country?
If a thousand of us could kill as many people as we could until we got
caught, then we could kill a lot of people who are bad for the country
and then once we're all caught the small country could surrender and
we would all have to be released as prisoners of war, right?
We could all be privates. They can't blame privates because they have
to follow orders.
The guys in the small country could make old guys who were dying soon
the leaders, and then when it was time to quit, they could overthrow
them and get US government aid. They could set the old guys trial dates
for two years down the road and then send them home to die.
I saw a guy get killed once and they told the guy who killed him that
he shouldn'a done it and they sent him home and said we'll call you
and then they took the dead guys sister to jail because she wouldn't
stop saying fuck.
When they were taking her away I told her she should kill the cops and
then go home and wait for them to call.
How about if we made a law that you had to kill the president and your
congressmen and senators and if you didn't you had to pay a $500.00 fine
every year? Do you think they would make sure we all made some money?
How about a law here you could kill any politician that forgot to call
you sir or ma'am? Or who forgot your birthday?
We could save a lot of money just by putting all the politicians who are
running for office on a stage and then killing them at random until we
had the right number left. Then they would have to think about if they
really wanted it.
How about if we let people be elected on a first-come first-serve basis
but then we could vote to kill them any time we wanted. Think they 
would do things to make us not want to kill them instead of the other
way around like it is now?
How about if we killed all of them and just pretended there was someone
running the country. Is that a good idea?






From j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep 11 23:21:39 1997
From: j.s.tyre at worldnet.att.net (James S. Tyre)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:21:39 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3418DB7F.38B1@worldnet.att.net>



> What we _can_ do is prepare for a long guerilla war with the bastards. 80%
> of the population will willingly trade away their rights ("what have I got
> to hide?") for more perceived security. Ben Franklin saw this 230 years
> ago.
> 
> It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
> Congress will slightly relax their laws.
> 
> 
> And in a war, gotta break some eggs.
> 
> --Tim May

Mostly, I agree -- at least as far as Congress is concerned.  I place
more hope in the courts, which could be because I've been practicing
con. law for 19 years (many on f-c know this, but I do not assume that
Tim knows much about me).

But even though I work within the law, this may become a by any means
necessary situation.  As I type, I'm remembering when the FBI raided my
office about a dozen years ago, without so much as a warrant, thank you
very much, accusing me of violating national security laws. 
Technically, they were right; legally, they were wrong, but they didn't
give a shit.  Nice reminder (coming from a liberal, for those who've
just been asking what liberals think) that a little civil disobedience
now and again is not such a bad thing.

-Jim






From Syniker at aol.com  Thu Sep 11 23:29:10 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:29:10 +0800
Subject: Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
Message-ID: <970912021709_1041080097@emout09.mail.aol.com>



Subj:	 Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
Date:	97-09-12 01:00:46 EDT
From:	remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Sender:	owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
To:	cypherpunks at toad.com


Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children:

1. I already ate all of mine. How many you got that are edible????

2.

3.

4.

5.












From Syniker at aol.com  Thu Sep 11 23:32:40 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:32:40 +0800
Subject: Different Ways to Kill AOL Members
Message-ID: <970912022339_1457154594@emout03.mail.aol.com>



Subj:	 Different Ways to Kill AOL Members
Date:	97-09-12 01:05:58 EDT
From:	remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Sender:	owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
To:	cypherpunks at toad.com


Different Ways to Kill AOL Members:

1. Just thrust your head and shoulders thru their bedroom window :):)

2.

3.

4.

5.












From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Sep 11 23:47:03 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:47:03 +0800
Subject: Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
In-Reply-To: <970912021709_1041080097@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970911233658.040b83e0@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 02:17 AM 9/12/97 -0400, Syniker at aol.com wrote:

>Subj:	 Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children
>Date:	97-09-12 01:00:46 EDT
>From:	remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
>Sender:	owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
>To:	cypherpunks at toad.com


Different Ways to Serial Murder AOL Members' Children:

1. I already ate all of mine. How many you got that are edible????

2. Me too!

3.

4.

5.


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 11 23:47:48 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:47:48 +0800
Subject: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother

Software that protects your privacy is a controlled substance that may no
longer be sold, a Congressional committee decided today.

Meeting behind closed doors this morning, the House Intelligence committee
voted to replace a generally pro-encryption bill with an entirely
rewritten draft that builds in Big Brother into all future encryption
products. (The Senate appears to be moving in a similar direction.)

The new SAFE bill -- titled in a wonderfully Orwellian manner the
"Security and Freedom through Encryption" act even though it provides
neither -- includes these provisions:

SELLING CRYPTO: Selling unapproved encryption products (that do not
include "immediate access to plaintext") becomes a federal crime,
immediately after this bill becomes law. Five years in jail plus
fines. Distributing, importing, or manufacturing such products
after January 31, 2000 is another crime.

NETWORK PROVIDERS: Anyone offering scrambled "network service"
including encrypted web servers or even "ssh" would be required to
build in a backdoor for the government by January 31, 2000. This
backdoor must provide for "immediate decryption or access to
plaintext of the data."

TECHNICAL STANDARDS: The Attorney General will publish technical
requirements for such backdoors in network service and encryption
products, within five months after the president signs this bill.

LEGAL TO USE CRYPTO: "After January 31, 2000, it shall not be
unlawful to use any encryption product purchased or in use prior to
such date."

GOVERNMENT POWERS: If prosecutors think you may be selling,
importing, or distributing non-backdoor'd crypto or are "about" to
do so, they can sue. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking
injunctive relief by the Attorney General, the court shall
automatically issue a temporary restraining order against the party
being sued." Also, there are provisions for holding secret
hearings, and "public disclosure of the proceedings shall be
treated as contempt of court." You can request an advisory opinion
from the government to see if the program you're about to publish
violates the law.

ACCESS TO PLAINTEXT: Courts can issue orders, ex parte, granting
police access to your encrypted data. But all the government has to
do to get one is to provide "a factual basis establishing the
relevance of the plaintext" to an investigation. They don't have to
demonstrate probable cause, which is currently required for a
search warrant. More interestingly, this explicitly gives the FISA
court jurisdiction (yes, the secret court that has never denied a
request for a wiretap). If they decode your messages, they'll tell
you within 90 days.

GOVERNMENT PURCHASING: Federal government computer purchases must
use a key escrow "immediate decryption" backdoor after 1998. Same
with networks "purchased directly with Federal funds to provide the
security service of data confidentially." Such products can be
labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"

ENCRYPTION EXPORTS: The Defense & Commerce departments will control
exports of crypto. Software "without regard to strength" can be
exported if it includes a key escrow backdoor and is first
submitted to the government. Export decisions aren't subject to
judicial review, and the "president may by executive order waive
any provision of this act" if he thinks it's a threat to national
security. Within 15 days, he must send a classified briefing to
Congress.

ADVISORY PANEL: Creates the Encryption Industry and Information
Security Board, with seven members from Justice, State, FBI, CIA,
White House, and six from the industry. 

INTERNATIONAL: The president can negotiate international agreements
and perhaps punish noncompliant governments. Can you say "trade
sancation?"

(Other provisions barring the use of crypto in a crime and
some forms of cryptanalysis are also in the bill.)

Next the Commerce Committee will vote on SAFE, and a former FBI
agent-turned-Congressman is vowing to ensure that similar language to this
is included. (The committees are voting on the bill in parallel, and a
four-person team of Congressmen is working to forge a compromise before
Commerce votes.) Then the heads of the five committees that have rewritten
the legislation will sit down and work out another compromise. If it's
acceptable to the House Rules committee -- and if the FBI/NSA get what
they want it will be -- the bill can move to the floor for a vote. 

That's why the encryption outlook in Congress is abysmal. Crypto-advocates
have lost, and lost miserably. A month ago, the debate was about export
controls. Now the battle is over how strict the //domestic// controls will
be. It's sad, really, that so many millions of lobbyist-dollars were not
only wasted, but used to advance legislation that has been morphed into a
truly awful proposal. 

I wrote more about this at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html

-Declan










From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 11 23:51:49 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:49 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <01BCBE08.43D9E320.wathab@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970911233150.006b2e6c@popd.netcruiser>

At 04:40 PM 9/10/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly 
>what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
>key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that 
>doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the 
>Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I 
>wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
>
>Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 
>pedophile...;-)
>So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
>volunteers?

Ditto!

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From Syniker at aol.com  Fri Sep 12 00:01:58 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:01:58 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <970912024759_-2102646949@emout16.mail.aol.com>



Well -- I wasn't thinking of an encrypted 'channel' --
I mean, just put the damn crypto right on the page as 
a graphic -- it's a work of art, see -- it's a digital painting...
and when it's on the WWW, it's auto public knowledge, and
in the public domain...
   Anyways, I'm not waitin' -- I redid my homepage and have got
the two RSA Perl lines on there... I'll hang it by the weekend...
too damn tired tonight...
   Also -- if I can get PGP running this weekend, first two encrypted
emails will be to GagMe Gallegly and Diane F...
Wait.... fuckin' Gagme doesn't even have email..........OK -- FAX....

Larry.






From Syniker at aol.com  Fri Sep 12 00:19:31 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:19:31 +0800
Subject: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
Message-ID: <970912030643_1061612968@emout06.mail.aol.com>



We got ourselves one sicko government.
I'll never comply or approve of any part of this.

Larry.






From fy at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 00:20:00 1997
From: fy at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:20:00 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <3418DC5C.15CC@dev.null>



David H Dennis wrote:

> Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?

They don't fit in any fucking world any more than butt-fucking 
the citizens fits in any fucking world.
There is no longer any rule of law in the country so it is now
acceptable for each of us to make our own laws and enforce them.
I met with myself in a double-secret commmittteee meeting last
night and passed a lot of laws that carry the death penalty and
now I have to kill everyone but me.
I also passed a law saying you all have to give me 30% of your
income until I get around to killing you. And you all have to
go to Vietnam and kill ten people and then go to Kent State and
kill a student and then you have to kill people with religious
beliefs that are different than yours and all of their children
too. And everyone has to bomb their own house and blame it on
Timothy McVeigh and then I'm going to pardon him and let him
sexually harrass Paula Jones.
And you guys have to quit reading other people's stuff because
I am the only official news, now.
NEWS FLASH!!!
I'm an asshole and I'm going to kill you all and take all of your
money and I'm still at the top of my latest poll. I just asked
myself.
So is anybody bothered because I'm not wearing a suit and smiling
at you and telling you lies? Is your life going to be any worse
now that a real asshole like me is the dictator of everybody?
Not really. I think things will stay pretty much the same.

Fuck You







From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 12 00:21:25 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:21:25 +0800
Subject: State of War (Was: Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709120704.DAA16619@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well Congress has decared war on us and the Citizens of the United States
in general.

The only question now is what targets to we hit first?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBjc0I9Co1n+aLhhAQH8jAP+LXNDjwJuOKO7WUVe7mQpcvqfVOC8Zgc9
qN2n+hGggwMu51h6VimnMiNlR4R+gpdP3nvVfG3gPIdbZQXv7IpcvUL5ICXZhdI5
gXD4II32nfCU7LOEB6Sm2uHAGOQqgoU7Zc64WGrfWP5DOChV4YiIhUZ7L2fhZclF
oY7ZcfDhfTk=
=LMdZ
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From sethf at mit.edu  Fri Sep 12 00:42:51 1997
From: sethf at mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:42:51 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <9709120730.AA15341@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>



> From: David H Dennis 
> I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government Warrior,

	I resent this part of the description, but let it pass.

> able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, 

	able to out-flame 5 or so Libertarians in a single thread is
more accurate.

> thinks of all this. Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a
> Libertarian world, due to our fundamental distrust of government.
> Where do they fit in a Liberal one?

	I'm *solidly* against such restrictions. Hey, if *Lizard* recommends
me here, you've got to believe it :-).
	Here's a quick political lesson: Being a Liberal in the US
means very roughly ONLY that one believes that the government has some
role to play in moderating the excesses of the market. It does not
particularly *make* you a civil-libertarian. However, because Liberals
think about general social power and the abuse of it, they are very
often led to the civil-libertarian view. In the opposite direction,
sometimes they just want power themselves. It is with great regret
that I must debunk the myth that being a Liberal makes you a saint (it
only seems that way in comparison to everyone else around ... :-) )
	It also helps that Liberals are *predominantly* drawn from
ranks of those who are the targets of both public and private
abuses. So they often both favor government action against business
abuse, and strong civil-liberties guarantees to keep government power
in check. It is *possible* to be a Conservative civil-libertarian, but
this much lesser group, and has in the past decades very much been purged
from the Republican party by the theocrats and hence from the national scene.
	The net result of this process: Not all Liberals
are civil-libertarians, but civil-libertarian opposition will almost
always come from Liberals (read this sentence several times until you
understand it. I get so tired of people attacking the strawman that
all Liberals are civil-libertarians, nyah, nyah, look at e.g. Dellums).
	Now, when you comprehend that, we go on to the next lesson:
The Fundamental Problem in American politics is GET-A-MAJORITY. It
is not "be a constitutional scholar", it is not "construct and defend
the most rigorous argument for your position in terms of axiomatics from
first principles", it isn't even "know what you're talking about". It is
GET-A-MAJORITY. 
	Old joke: After a campaign rally, a supporter told Adelai Stevenson
"Mr. Stevenson, you've got every thinking man's vote!". He replied
"That's not enough, I need a majority."
	Semi-digression: Business is "make a profit" - if you do that
by throwing widows and orphans out into the street, it still works.
What matters is how many dollars are made, not people affected. This
is why Liberals view a population-based civil system as a necessary
constraint on the imperatives of capital. Because ultimately we're
people, not dollars.
	The goal of GET-A-MAJORITY is in great tension with
intrinsically minority-rights, anti-majoritarian concepts such as
civil-liberties. Any politician ignores this at great peril. Thus,
Liberals who don't have to be elected can be a lot more vocal
civil-liberties supporters than those who need to GET-A-MAJORITY.
Thus even Liberal, civil-libertarian politicians may *vote against
their principles* (do I hear gasps from the peanut gallery) because
of electoral imperatives.
	Corollary 1: Detonating a nuclear device in DC will not solve this
problem. The surviving government will just have a very good excuse for
crypto-controls.
	Corollary 2: Repeated Libertarian rantings won't solve it either.


	Now, personally, you're probably not going to be seeing me on
the crypto-barricades in the future. Is it because I'm a
Big-Brother-loving government-worshipper? No, not at all. I was
thinking today about what I could do on the issue. And I came to the
conclusion that I'm basically so crippled and exhausted as a
net.activist that I shouldn't do more (general statement, but set off
by this particular topic). I can't stand a huge number of the people
I'd have to work with, and I just don't have the patience and energy
to keep pounding grains of understanding into them, it's like filling
a sandbag with tweezers. But don't you dare assume support for crypto
restrictions from that, it's rather coming to the point of being
completely fed up with the drain of electronic activism on my life.

================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf at mit.edu






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 12 00:48:41 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:48:41 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
Message-ID: <376e743780d8315f4a93d16785193df4@anon.efga.org>



Tim May wrote:
> 
> OK, so the imminent legislation will ban sale or distribution unescrowed
> crypto products after 1999 or 2000 or whatever. Exact details unclear. But
> I see no language declaring existing products to be contraband. (Though
> such language could still come, of course...nothing would surprised me at
> this point.)

Jesus Tim, are you getting senile? Bet the farm on the outlawing of
existing crypto and you will have more money than Bill Gates in a
couple of years.
The new reality has become: any fascist, evil thing you can think of
that it is possible for the government to do--ask *when*, not *if*.

We are not arguing about the end of democracy in the US anymore. We
are merely discussing the timetable, now.

> If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
> before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.

Tim, you are forgetting about "the crisis." Which one? Name one. Make
one up out of random Scrabble letters. Yup, that's the crisis that is
going to require the outlawing of strong crypto. I would recognize it
anywhere.







From steve at xemacs.org  Fri Sep 12 01:08:17 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (SL Baur)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:08:17 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Tim May  writes:

> If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
> before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.

Indeed.  How about existing software with decades of previous
existence that has hooks where crypto can be plugged in with fairly
trivial effort?

> Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE bills
> that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs ...

> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.

We (the XEmacs developers, but I write only for myself as XEmacs
maintainer) already distribute mailcrypt (Emacs lisp code to
integrate PGP with mailers and newsreaders implemented in Emacs
lisp).  It has been possible to integrate encrypted editing with
encryption of the user's choice transparently for some time.

> Better, perhaps, to leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the
> ASCII level, where it can be dropped in cleanly to whatever program
> is current. (Also an old strategy, one with many advantages.)

I agree.  An Emacs-like architecture makes implementing something like 
this pretty straight-forward.






From davenull at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 01:26:03 1997
From: davenull at dev.null (Dave Null)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:26:03 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3418FA3F.206@dev.null>



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks at toad.com

Tim May wrote:
 > Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE
bills
> that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs (before the
> ban)?

  Govt doesn't need to use a reasonable interpretation. They tell you
what you can and can't do--the judge areees with them--ten years later
the Supremes tell you to go ahead and use it but it no longer runs on
any of the machines in existence.

> Any way they could make it illegal to use PGP or Lotus Notes or
> whatever in conjunction with a mailer or browser?

  Yes. They declare it to be so.
 
> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.
 > Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good
idea, as
> the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
> leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
> dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
> one with many advantages.)

  Make it work simply for everyone with the push of a single button.
It doesn't have to be secure, it has to be convenient. The only thing
the masses need is the illusion of security. Then they will cry loudly
when someone tries to take it away.
  Make it so that those who want strong security can jump through the
necessary hoops to get it from the same program so that they can't
take away yours and leave them with theirs. 

> The war criminals in Washington will have a real hard time rounding up the
> crypto deployed between now and D-Day.

  Strong encryption, officer? Yes, my Bouncing Betty Security Disk
is right there in the top drawer. I'll just step back here a little
and let you go get it.
 
Dave Null






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 12 01:33:48 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:33:48 +0800
Subject: Please don't KILL THE PRESIDENT
Message-ID: <199709120824.KAA15622@basement.replay.com>



Youth In Asia Society:

At our last monthly meeting, we discussed all of the reasons there are
not to KILL THE PRESIDENT.
We think it is our duty to inform people of our objection to those who
believe it is necessary to KILL THE PRESIDENT.
We also object to people who are constantly running around, shouting,
incessantly, "KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE 
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! 
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE 
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!"
We think that this is rude.

So we would ask you please not to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We don't want you to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We think it is inadvisable for you to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We certainly hope that you won't KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We hope that no one you know decides to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We are dedicated in our efforts to convince people not to KILL THE
PRESIDENT!
We think that we will be successful in our efforts to convince
people not to KILL THE PRESIDENT!
We don't ask to be thanked for advising people not to KILL THE
PRESIDENT!
Nor do we expect to be thanked for advising people not to run around
incessantly screaming "KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE
PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!
KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT! KILL THE PRESIDENT!"

That's why we post anonymously.
We're humble.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 12 01:40:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:40:28 +0800
Subject: Damn Do-Gooders
Message-ID: <199709120828.KAA16212@basement.replay.com>



It's people like this that are ruining the country.

Anonymous wrote:
>Dave Del Torto wrote: 
>> "All members of Congress, and particularly those of us on the Intelligence
>> Committee, have a responsibility to find the proper balance between forward
>> thinking commercial policies and the unquestioned need to protect the
>> security of the American people and America's national interests." said 
>> HPSCI Chairman Porter J. Goss

>I think we should all send Chairman Goss a letter of appreciation for
>his offer to assassinate Child Murderer Janet Reno and Murderer Louis
>Freeh. Most politicians are too cowardly to promise strong actions such
>as this.

I wish this damn do-gooder would just let me kill them myself.
I hate owing people.

Do-Badder






From tm at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 01:44:46 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:44:46 +0800
Subject: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3418FE7C.729C@dev.null>



Tim May wrote:
> At 9:30 PM -0700 9/11/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:

> (Now shut the fuck up and get the hell off our list with your demands for
> money to explain your bullshit one time pad scheme.)

  I'll shut the fuck up and get the hell off the list for $50.00!

TruthMonger






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Sep 12 01:57:27 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:57:27 +0800
Subject: Docs in Bernstein converted to HTML
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912015047.006ff604@pop.sirius.com>




I've converted two of the newer documents in _Bernstein v. Dept of State_
into HTML; but I'd appreciate it if someone felt like
proofreading/comparing them to the original images, it's late and my eyes
are tired. 


Judge Patel's Order of 9/9/97, staying some of the injunctive relief:

HTML at 
image at



Declaration of William Reinsch in support of emergency motion for total stay:

HTML at 
image at



--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Fri Sep 12 01:57:27 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:57:27 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>



When I posted "in defense of Lon Horiuchi" I had intended not
to follow up on the thread, but the several responses I've
read (which were more reasoned and polite than I had expected--
thanks guys) indicate that I didn't explain myself clearly.


It was not my intention to argue that Lon Horiuchi is a good
guy, that he fulfilled his responsibilities with appropriate 
care, that he's a good shot, that he worked in an honorable 
profession, that he is blameless in the death of the child, or
such.  (I may or may not _believe_ some of these propositions,
but I'll spare you for you the full littany of my opinions.)  
All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost 
certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that 
Anonymous portrayed.


There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a
terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
crowd is damning.



Why I'm posting:

I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that
they retreat into closed conversation where they can continue
their self-inflaming rants without fear of interruption.  My
motivation in posting critical articles like these is primarily
because there are a great number of silent readers of the 
cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be 
self-evident truths if they continually see them pass 
unchallenged.



Regards,

Zooko






From tm at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 02:28:15 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:28:15 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <34190921.52DF@dev.null>



Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost
> certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that
> Anonymous portrayed.

  That is *not*at*all* certain.
  Others turned down the job because they didn't want to risk
becoming baby-killing murderers.
 
> But comparing such a policemen to a
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  

  How about comparing him to a handful of BATF agents who scoot
out of the building to be bombed, leaving the non-combatants 
behind without warning them of the danger?
  Is that a good comparison?

> That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

  You are certainly assuming an awful lot, here. If you hadn't
butted in, some of us who agree with him would have taken the
opposite position just to be contrary sons of bitches.
 
> I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
> more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
> blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that
> they retreat into closed conversation where they can continue
> their self-inflaming rants without fear of interruption.

  Had a toilet plunger stuck up your ass, lately, Zooko?
Is that why you didn't waddle on over to Waco and watch those
nice LEA's help those Bible-thumpers out of the compound?
  What's the matter? You miss the Nazis? Sorry we butted into
your politics over there. We could send you some FBI guys as
replacements.

>  My
> motivation in posting critical articles like these is primarily
> because there are a great number of silent readers of the
> cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
> inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be
> self-evident truths if they continually see them pass
> unchallenged.

  Zooko, I'm very happy for you, living in a country where the
LEA's apparently kiss the citizens on the lips when they meet.
Go suck on a toilet plunger while burning some babies and give
some thought to moving to the New Amerika.
  We'll have Rodney King meet you at the airport. Ask him to
show you how fast his car can go.

  How about we divvy up the duties of teaching these young,
inexperienced readers the truths of life.
  You teach them how to say "Heil Hitler!" and we'll teach them
how to say "Lock and Load!" Their future is going to be mighty
dim if they don't know how to say one or the other.

TruthMonger






From camcc at abraxis.com  Fri Sep 12 03:07:47 1997
From: camcc at abraxis.com (Alec McCrackin)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:07:47 +0800
Subject: in defense of the baby-murderer
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <34191197.3007@abraxis.com>



Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost
> certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that
> Anonymous portrayed.

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
September 10, 1997
Building in Big Brother
By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)
  
    Hoover despised Martin Luther King, Jr. -- branding him an
   "obsessive degenerate" -- and once sent him an anonymous letter,
using
   information gathered through illegal surveillance, to encourage the
   depressed civil rights leader to commit suicide. Hoover's legacy?
   Having the FBI headquarters bear his name today.

Zooko. Maybe the agent just asks them to commit suicide.

Alec
"How many of them FBI agents did you say you wanted us to send you?"






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep 12 04:03:20 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:03:20 +0800
Subject: Official CypherPunks Decryption Software Breaks PGP !!!
Message-ID: <34191F1D.2DC4@sk.sympatico.ca>

ANNOUNCEMENT: Official CypherPunks Decryption Software Now Available

  This is the first software package with the ability to Decrypt PGP
in all of its forms.

  The package costs $1,000,000 and comes with an 80 lb. suitcase.

  We have attached the software to this file and will forward the
suitcase upon receipt of the $1,000,000.

  Syntax: "cypherpunk.bat "


echo ""
echo ""
echo "    Official CypherPunk Decryption Software
echo ""
echo " Deciphered Message Is:
echo ""
echo ""               NUKE D.C. !!!
echo ""
echo ""
echo ""




From holovacs at idt.net  Fri Sep 12 04:11:45 1997
From: holovacs at idt.net (jay holovacs)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:11:45 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <199709121102.HAA15754@u2.farm.idt.net>



Here I am

Jay

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzCmKpkAAAEEANq8z8b2fiVI8rB3n3iJVyqDSGu7KdYy0hE95DDAbkh017ew
oTEASfiZmP7mPXy9y7HWi9oYYIY1eGSH9Xe/oGLOfjoETKGES6YqObRJ5B5LmK+y
Xxsv89NCw/K7s/OSm+CscewZqXt0cHnHFx7/9heGEqDNii3xgdXsLniA5KoFAAUR
tB9KYXkgSG9sb3ZhY3MgPGhvbG92YWNzQGlvcy5jb20+
=c5gz
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


==========================
   >From:    	Hiawatha Bray 
   >Subject:    	RE: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
   >Date:    	Wed, Sep 10, 1997  4:40 PM
   >
   >I hate to tip folks off as to my column for tomorrow, but that's exactly 
   >what I'm doing in it.  I have written that if the Feds try to impose 
   >key-recovery crypto on me, I'll start using some encryption program that 
   >doesn't comply with the law, and I'll send copies of the messages to the 
   >Feds, so they can come and arrest me.  If I really thought they would, I 
   >wouldn't have written it!  But I'll stand by it.
   >
   >Anyway, I don't presently encrypt my mail.  No reason to--I ain't no 
   >pedophile...;-)
   >So if I want to send crypto I must find some partner in crime.  Any 
   >volunteers?
   >
   >Hiawatha Bray
   >Technology Reporter
   >Boston Globe
   >P.O. Box 2378
   >135 Morrissey Blvd.
   >Boston, MA  02107-2378  USA
   >617-929-3115 voice
   >617-929-3183 fax
   >http://members.tripod.com/~krothering/index.html
   >
   >
   >On Wednesday, September 10, 1997 10:04 AM, Syniker at aol.com 






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 12 04:31:22 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:31:22 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.WAA09072@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912072306.006c2940@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


>> I understand that 1 congresscritter voted against the amendment, 
do you
>> know which one it was? I would like to make sure it wasn't Joe
>> Scarborough.

"Twas none other than Adam Smith - Rep. from Microsoft's own Puget 
sound. I saw his hand.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter at ctive Week

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBkmGtZgKT/Hvj9iEQL3ggCgwAzUMsqPgbt/0X4ux0LW1onPNIEAnjcR
vSCY8TUImbNIt1eEyf1RrXWQ
=Z8em
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 12 05:10:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:10:15 +0800
Subject: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: <199709121201.OAA03505@basement.replay.com>




Zooko Journeyman blathered:

> There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
> a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
> during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a 
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

As Tim and others have noted from time to time, one man's terrorist
is another man's freedom fighter.  A corollary to this is that one
man's policeman is another man's terrorist.  Calling Horiuchi - a
//trained sniper// - a policeman is stretching credulity.  Consider
too that the Weavers weren't threatening anyone when they were
initially attacked/ambushed by the Feds - so in what way were the 
Feds fulfilling a "policeman" role?

In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there 
/is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a 
badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."








From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Fri Sep 12 05:13:24 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:13:24 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <199709101229.NAA02196@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199709121203.IAA11005@upaya.multiverse.com>



Adam Back writes:

: 
: Declan McCullagh  writes:
: > 
: > I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
: > electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
: > suggested widespread civil disobedience. 
: 
: Might I suggest using RSA in perl:
: 
: print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
: )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0.  

It is unlikely that we will be seeking further classifications in
connection with my suit, but it might be an interesting and useful
project---not involving civil disobedience---for some of you.  It
would be interesting to see exactly which encryption programs the
bureaucrats classify as encryption programs, and which they don't.
It would also be interesting to see if they give the same
classifications in response to requests by those who are not suing
them.

I must, however, warn you that it is not an easy project.  It cannot
be done by e-mail and you have to get numbered forms from Commerce
Department on which the applications must be submitted.  In fact,
the difficulty of applying for a classification or a license is one of
the many reasons for concluding that the export restrictions on
cryptography violate the United States Constitution.  

It would certainly be helpful if it turned out that that Commerce
cannot or will not respond promptly to classification requests made by
would-be publishers of cryptographic software who are neither
commercial publishers nor suing to enjoin the enforcement of the 
regulations.
 
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Fri Sep 12 05:25:38 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:25:38 +0800
Subject: Snuffle Destroys United States: Film at 11
In-Reply-To: <19970911052038.32149.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199709121214.IAA11067@upaya.multiverse.com>



Mike Duvos writes:
 
: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "Snuffle" was some
: simple-minded cipher designed to test ITAR.  I didn't think it
: was something anyone would choose to incorporate into a serious
: product.
 
I am quite sure that you are wrong in this.  It is a serious program
written to demonstrate Bernstein's algorithm for converting a secure
hash function (which as it happens is exportable) into an encryption
program (which is not exportable).  It certainly was not written to
test the ITAR and restricting it under the ITAR or the EAR was and is
rather odd as it contains no encryption code itself.  Or, at least,
that is my understanding.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep 12 05:58:33 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:58:33 +0800
Subject: Nat Sec Moves
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970912123922.006c7078@pop.pipeline.com>



NYT reports today on the administration's proposal to
allow more TLA access to medical records (as Attila
earlier noted). A last minute addition to the proposal was to
allow "intelligence agencies" to access the files.

   See the report at: http://www.hhs.gov

A second report is on the return of Sun's supercomputer
by the Chinese after protest by the USG, as represented
by Domstic Export Czar Reinsch. Although Sun is reported to have
quickly provided the gov information to trace the machine,
it may be that the hit of refunding the purchase price is
what Elvis cost, and a warning to all other exporters who
don't toe the line.

What is happening is that borderless government is developing
in step with the borderless political and economic and legal
and technological enterprise. Distinctions between domestic and 
foreign are quickly disappearing in all fields, but especially in law 
enforcement and intelligence. Export controls will shortly
be indistinguishable form domestic controls -- in all nations
now acting in unison to protect their ... take you picks of legacy 
of protected interests.

Misbehave in any arena, and if you can't be punished as a
threat to domestic tranquillity, then the international enforcers
will whack you -- no place to hide, they hope, and pray, and
dig deeper into data mines.

Congressional briefings by TLAs surely include a sample of what's in
the dark holes of congressional members, if not with specifics,
then by insinuation. As all the world's previous Hoovers dared
to threaten the folks at home with enemies within, enemeies subject
to control by international forces -- commie, capital, anarch, western,
eastern, black, white, green. Only the secret files know who's what
flavor of the black budgetary year.






From jonl at post.goucher.edu  Fri Sep 12 06:54:56 1997
From: jonl at post.goucher.edu (J. Lasser)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:54:56 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970912092721.39213@rwd.goucher.edu>



In the wise words of David H Dennis:

> I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government
> Warrior, able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, thinks of
> all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?

I'm not Seth, but I'm also not a libertarian. (I'm also not a
'Liberal', in the sense in which you're using it, but hey...) and I
think I can answer this question:

Most 'Liberals' (virtually all of them) are _civil_ libertarians. This
means that they support few or no restrictions on the actions of
private individuals, unless (1) They are of a commercial nature or (2)
They involve fraud or hurting people.  Most instances of (1) which are
inappropriate also involve (2), as far as they're concerned.

What they don't believe is that a right to unlimited free speech
translates into a right to do anything so long as it's not damaging
directly to others. And a couple of other things :-)

But most liberals think individuals using crypto is just fine. All the
civil libertarians do, and most liberals are.

Jon
-- 
Jon Lasser (410)383-7962                      jonl at post.goucher.edu
http://www.goucher.edu/~jlasser/            PGP key = 1024/EC001E4D
      "Flap your ears, Dumbo!  The feather was only a trick!"






From hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com  Fri Sep 12 22:00:06 1997
From: hugh at ecotone.xanadu.com (Hugh Daniel)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting _Update_
Message-ID: <199709130500.WAA15710@ecotone.xanadu.com>



  Update, more detail in the Agenda and a request for folks to where
their "Key Escrow Agent" jackets for a photo op (from behind I would
guess, but bring your mirror shades in any case...).
  Please also note that this is the 5th anniversary of Cypherpunks
Meetings!  Can thing get much stranger then this?

What:	Cypherpunks September 1997 Bay Area Meeting
When:	Saturday September 13, 12 noon till 5pm
Where:	PGP World Headquarters, 2nd floor meeting room
	Bayview Bank Building, just south of Hwy. 92
	2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo California
	http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head

Agenda:
	Cypherpunks at HIP'97, Lucky Green, David Del Torto
	Ecash announcement, Jeremey Barrett, BlueMoney Software Corp.
	Linux Onion Router, Jeremey Barrett
	Diffie-Helman Free of Patent, Three Cheers
 13:00	Washingtoon Crypo Legislation update, Kelly ??? of PGP
	New FBI Anti-Crypto Bill, how to react, Eric Hughes
	Break
	Forbes Article background, everyone
	Domain name conference report, John Gilmore
	Attacks on US remailers etc., Bill Stewart
	???

After:
	Eat dinner somewhere nearby yet to be decided...

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call DDT at +1 415
	730 3583 he I'll let you in. 
      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep 12 07:04:06 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:04:06 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Actually, the legislation will ban sale of nonescrowed crypto immediately
upon passage.

As for existing products, no such proposal in draft form... yet... But if
people can use old non-GAK'd crypto, won't terrorists still us it? The
logical conclusion of the FBI's argument is to ban non-GAK'd crypto
outright. I asked Sen. Kyl, Arizona Republican, why he didn't do this. His
response? He didn't have the votes.

At least two months ago.

-Declan


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> OK, so the imminent legislation will ban sale or distribution unescrowed
> crypto products after 1999 or 2000 or whatever. Exact details unclear. But
> I see no language declaring existing products to be contraband. (Though
> such language could still come, of course...nothing would surprised me at
> this point.)
> 
> So, what about Alice and Bob using PGP 5.0 or Explorer with S-MIME, or
> whatever. Plenty of crypto already out there. They can drop their encrypted
> text into whatever mail program or browser they're using.
> 
> If existing crypto is fully legal to use, then it could be years and years
> before the Freeh-Reno-SAFE outlawing has any significant effect.
> 
> Is there any reasonable interpretation of any of the SAFE or Pro-CODE bills
> that could make it illegal to use preexisting crypto programs (before the
> ban)? Any way they could make it illegal to use PGP or Lotus Notes or
> whatever in conjunction with a mailer or browser?
> 
> 
> If not, then our strategy should be to get the simpler, text-centric,
> crypto programs massively and widely deployed. Spend the year or so we have
> before D-Day getting crypto onto every CD-ROM being distributed, every
> public domain site, etc.
> 
> (An old strategy, and one great progress has been made on. But now we have
> to really go into high gear, to _really_ get crypto widely deployed.)
> 
> Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
> the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence. Better, perhaps, to
> leave the crypto at the "text edit" level, the ASCII level, where it can be
> dropped in cleanly to whatever program is current. (Also an old strategy,
> one with many advantages.)
> 
> The war criminals in Washington will have a real hard time rounding up the
> crypto deployed between now and D-Day.
> 
> Fucking criminals. Fight the _real_ criminals. Nuke em til they glow.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From landon_dyer at wayfarer.com  Fri Sep 12 07:09:32 1997
From: landon_dyer at wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:09:32 +0800
Subject: house NSC member list
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970912070553.00ca2210@mail.wayfarer.com>




  from http://www.house.gov/nsc/members.htm

  according to the list, smith of washington was the only "no" vote in
committee


---------


The following is the official House National Security Committee Membership
list for the
105th Congress. 


	 Republican Members                  Democrat Members 
        --------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
        Floyd D. Spence, South Carolina,
         Chairman 
                                            Ronald V. Dellums, California,
Ranking Member 
        Bob Stump, Arizona, Vice-Chairman 
                                            Ike Skelton, Missouri 
        Duncan Hunter, California 
                                            Norman Sisisky, Virginia 
        John R. Kasich, Ohio 
                                            John M. Spratt, Jr., South
Carolina 
        Herbert H. Bateman, Virginia 
                                            Solomon P. Ortiz, Texas 
        James V. Hansen, Utah 
                                            Owen Pickett, Virginia 
        Curt Weldon, Pennsylvania 
                                            Lane Evans, Illinois 
        Joel Hefley, Colorado 
                                            Gene Taylor, Mississippi 
        Jim Saxton, New Jersey 
                                            Neil Abercrombie, Hawaii 
        Steve Buyer, Indiana 
                                            Martin T. Meehan, Massachusetts 
        Tillie K. Fowler, Florida 
                                            Robert A. Underwood, Guam 
        John M. McHugh, New York 
                                            Jane Harman, California 
        James Talent, Missouri 
                                            Paul McHale, Pennsylvania 
        Terry Everett, Alabama 
                                            Patrick J. Kennedy, Rhode Island 
        Roscoe G. Bartlett, Maryland 
                                            Rod R. Blagojevich, Illinois 
        Howard "Buck" McKeon, California 
                                            Silvestre Reyes, Texas 
        Ron Lewis, Kentucky 
                                            Tom Allen, Maine 
        J.C. Watts, Jr., Oklahoma 
                                            Victor F. Snyder, Arkansas 
        Mac Thornberry, Texas 
                                            Jim Turner, Texas 
        John N. Hostettler, Indiana 
                                            Allen Boyd, Florida 
        Saxby Chambliss, Georgia 
                                            Adam Smith, Washington 
        Van Hilleary, Tennessee 
                                            Loretta Sanchez, California 
        Joe Scarborough, Florida 
                                            James H. Maloney, Connecticut 
        Walter B. Jones, Jr., North Carolina 
                                            Mike McIntyre, North Carolina 
        Lindsey O. Graham, South Carolina 
                                            Ciro Rodriguez, Texas
        Sonny Bono, California 
                                            Cynthia McKinney, Georgia
        Jim Ryun, Kansas 
                                              
        Michael Pappas, New Jersey 
                                              
        Bob Riley, Alabama 
                                              
        Jim Gibbons, Nevada 
                                              
        Bill Redmond, New Mexico


  "Democracy is government by the people and for the people, on the
   theory that the people should get the kind of government they
   deserve, good and hard."
                             -- Robert Frezza, _The VMR Theory_






From Syniker at aol.com  Fri Sep 12 07:33:32 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:33:32 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
Message-ID: <970912101858_1661449953@emout07.mail.aol.com>



>> Make it work simply for everyone with the push of a single button.
It doesn't have to be secure, it has to be convenient. The only thing
the masses need is the illusion of security. Then they will cry loudly
when someone tries to take it away.
  Make it so that those who want strong security can jump through the
necessary hoops to get it from the same program so that they can't
take away yours and leave them with theirs.<<

My feelings exactly... both levels 'need to be'.... but the
simple level is what's needed most right now...
I think a great number of people will be really angry at any potential
seeming loss of 'privacy' in personal matters...
or -- commercial for that matter...
but most will have difficulty ... if it isn't an easy 'fix' for 'em...

Larry.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 12 07:36:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:36:28 +0800
Subject: Not key escrow, key recovery
Message-ID: <199709121430.QAA16638@basement.replay.com>



>It is quite probable that this has been said before.  In case it hasn't,
>however, I feel compelled to point out that mandatory key escrow/recovery
>could likely mean an economic disaster of unimaginable proportions.

(Underpaid clerk steals secret keys, etc.)

Wake up.  It's not key escrow, it's key recovery.  Every message will be
encrypted with a LEAF (law enforcement access field).  This is an additional
recipient who can decrypt the message.  No user or corporate secret
keys are escrowed.  You're working with yesterday's scenario.

Anon






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep 12 07:49:03 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:49:03 +0800
Subject: 9-12-97 Cybertimes on crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970912143439.008329b4@pop.pipeline.com>



September 12, 1997
Cybertimes


"House Committee Casts Wide Net With Encryption Vote" by Jeri Clausing

"Mockery and Fear Greet Encryption Plan" by Peter Wayner






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 12 08:00:49 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:00:49 +0800
Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse
Message-ID: 





---

http://hotwired.com/synapse/feature/97/36/mccullagh4a_1.html

HotWired - Synapse (http://hotwired.com/synapse/)
12 September 1997

In Defense of Libertarianism
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) and Solveig Singleton (sberns at cato.org)
   
   Libertarianism, as a rule, attracts the most strident criticism from
   those who understand it the least. Expending little or no effort on
   research, critics barely familiar with libertarian ideas concoct an
   unappetizing stew of ideas - anarchism, egoism, and plain selfishness
   and greed - and mistakenly dub it libertarianism. Small surprise,
   then, that this ideological bouillabaisse tastes revolting. Such
   critics aren't describing libertarianism, but their own fanciful
   creation.
   
   Libertarianism is not about anarchy, utopia, or selfishness. Instead,
   libertarians simply are skeptical of "nanny government," and recognize
   the many ways state power has been abused in the past. They believe
   that government programs like health assistance, Social Security,
   foreign aid, and corporate welfare do more harm than good. They argue
   that everyone must be equal before the law, and everyone has human
   rights to personal security, to property, and to free speech that the
   government must protect, not violate.
   
   Synapse columnist Brooke Shelby Biggs recently suggested that such
   skepticism about authority is a sign of immaturity, asking us to
   remember how we felt about authority when we were 12. "Despite the
   fact that you knew exactly where everything was in your, uh ...
   alternatively organized bedroom, Mom still insisted you clean it up,"
   she writes. Eventually you grew out of it. Now you're an adult and can
   think for yourself. Or can you? Not according to nanny government.
   
   Together the left and the right conspire to dictate what you can eat,
   see, read, smoke, and talk about. Leftists contend that the state
   should regulate the economy (and technology), but not morality.
   Conservatives claim that the government should leave the economy
   alone, but should legislate what you're allowed to do online or in
   your bedroom. Only libertarians have a consistent philosophy: The
   state can't be trusted to screw around with the economy, to control
   your private life, or to police the Internet.
   
   Consider the recent bipartisan onslaughts against the Net. Democrats
   have been particularly unrelenting in their attacks. President Clinton
   endorsed the Communications Decency Act, signed it into law, then
   dragged the fight all the way to the Supreme Court. Ridiculously, he
   insists that Cold War-era restrictions on overseas shipments of
   encryption products are a good idea. Adding insult to injury, Clinton
   has backed copyright laws that would require Internet providers to
   police what their users talk about online. Then there are Clinton's
   demands for more and more wiretapping authority for the FBI - a plan
   that might have made even J. Edgar Hoover blush. (And this president
   once taught constitutional law?)
   
   Republicans have been just as censorship-happy. They, too, supported
   the CDA, which the Senate approved overwhelmingly. Even after the
   nation's highest court ruled such broad censorship unconstitutional,
   some GOP senators pledged to try again. Others are teaming up with the
   White House to make the Internet easily snoopable by spooks, expand
   government databases, issue national ID cards, and wrest away your
   privacy and freedom, one Social Security number at a time.

[...]







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 12 08:25:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:25:16 +0800
Subject: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.EAA09212@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> 
> I am interested in researching possible legal grounds for taking armed
> action against politicians governments and law enforcement agencies.
> 
> I would appreciate any pointers anyone might be able to provide to 
> any material of this nature.
> 
> Of particular interest would be information as to the application of
> International law in this area.
> 
> I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
> which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
> rights by any government elected or not.
> 

Start with the Declaration of Independence... :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 12 08:25:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:25:39 +0800
Subject: Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <9NaXce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  writes:

> 
> Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed:
> 

Did Pedophile Chris Lewis kill Polly Klaas?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From hauman at bb.com  Fri Sep 12 08:33:47 1997
From: hauman at bb.com (Glenn Hauman)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:33:47 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970911223056.00cd1da8@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



At 1:38 AM -0400 9/12/97, Lizard wrote:

>And here we see more of the cult's recruitment. Note how he always
>talks about the *GOVERNMENT* and the *IRS*. Why doesn't he talk about Pepsi
>or GM wanting the keys to your house? More of this 'government bad,
>business good' propaganda we've all grown so sick and tired of, being
>shoved down our throats. Small wonder this list has gone to hell!" 

Say what? Do you know how much companies pay for information about you as a
member of a demographic? (Think Equifax, Nielsen, or any mailing list
company.)

Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/







From hauman at bb.com  Fri Sep 12 08:35:33 1997
From: hauman at bb.com (Glenn Hauman)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:35:33 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 1:05 AM -0400 9/12/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>Nice idea Declan, but what's "lots of folks"?  Rhetorical question --
>what percentage of the populace in the U.S. is even on the net?

Since you asked: about 20% of the US population has used the Internet or an
online service in the past 30 days, according to Mediamark Research Spring
97. Under 40% own a PC at home, about 40% use one at work.

Not a majority yet, but that's all on a rapidly accelerating curve.


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/







From nate at infidels.org  Fri Sep 12 09:04:06 1997
From: nate at infidels.org (Nate Sammons)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:04:06 +0800
Subject: Different Ways Polly Klaas Could Have Been Killed
In-Reply-To: <9NaXce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Did Pedophile Chris Lewis kill Polly Klaas?
> 

No.  A man named Richard Allen Davis killed her... see 
http://cnn.com/US/9609/27/davis.sentencing/index.html and any search
on "Poly Klaas" on cnn.com for more information.

-nate

--
  Nate Sammons                          nate at infidels.org
                                        http://sulaco.proxicom.com:7000/~nate






From tomw at netscape.com  Fri Sep 12 09:07:24 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:07:24 +0800
Subject: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <199709102014.UAA01088@fountainhead.net>
Message-ID: <34196385.FB7F5278@netscape.com>



Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
> 
> *** Netscape meets gov't security standard
> 
> Netscape Communications Corporation announced Monday the National
> Institute of Standards and Technology and the Canadian Security
> Establishment validated the security code in Netscape Communicator
> client software and Netscape SuiteSpot server software as meeting
> Federal Information Processing Standards Publications 140-1, "Security
> Requirements For Cryptographic Modules." Netscape is the only Internet
> software vendor to comply with the FIPS 140-1 security standard, the
> company said. (PR Newswire) See full story at
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4840046-429

For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From hauman at bb.com  Fri Sep 12 09:28:41 1997
From: hauman at bb.com (Glenn Hauman)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:28:41 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3418CDA3.2300@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 



At 1:42 AM -0400 9/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>
>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>think) why crypto is important?
>
>This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
>dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"
>
>Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
>staff for education, etc.
>
>And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.

True, but if it's war, we gotta get more troops. I don't want to save them,
I want more troops on my side.

Education is good. Exploiting FUD is probably better. (DoJ's learned
something from dealing with Microsoft.) Luckily, it ain't that hard to whip
up Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt against the US Government.


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/







From shamrock at netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 09:33:54 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:33:54 +0800
Subject: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912090513.00753244@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 11:38 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>That's why the encryption outlook in Congress is abysmal. Crypto-advocates
>have lost, and lost miserably. A month ago, the debate was about export
>controls. Now the battle is over how strict the //domestic// controls will
>be. It's sad, really, that so many millions of lobbyist-dollars were not
>only wasted, but used to advance legislation that has been morphed into a
>truly awful proposal. 

This disaster came about because those with the millions of dollars spent
their money on lobbying rather than creating new, strong, crypto software.

There is only one way to aid the spread of strong crypto and stand up to GAK:

Cypherpunks write code.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From frantz at netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 09:37:22 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:37:22 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>think) why crypto is important?

When I walk through South-of-Market in San Francisco and hear people
trading URL in conversation as the walk down the street and see URLs on TV,
Billboards and even the side of busses, I wonder if this assumption is
really true.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From ConorL at flexicom.ie  Fri Sep 12 09:40:53 1997
From: ConorL at flexicom.ie (Conor Lillis)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:40:53 +0800
Subject: Soldiers
Message-ID: 



I LIKE it !

>----------
>From: 	nobody at REPLAY.COM[SMTP:nobody at REPLAY.COM]
>Sent: 	12 September 1997 06:49
>To: 	cypherpunks at toad.com
>Subject: 	Soldiers
>
>Is there a small country that a thousand of us could go to and get 
>citizenship and then have the country declare war on the U.S. after
>we are all back in the country?
>If a thousand of us could kill as many people as we could until we got
>caught, then we could kill a lot of people who are bad for the country
>and then once we're all caught the small country could surrender and
>we would all have to be released as prisoners of war, right?
>We could all be privates. They can't blame privates because they have
>to follow orders.
>The guys in the small country could make old guys who were dying soon
>the leaders, and then when it was time to quit, they could overthrow
>them and get US government aid. They could set the old guys trial dates
>for two years down the road and then send them home to die.
>I saw a guy get killed once and they told the guy who killed him that
>he shouldn'a done it and they sent him home and said we'll call you
>and then they took the dead guys sister to jail because she wouldn't
>stop saying fuck.
>When they were taking her away I told her she should kill the cops and
>then go home and wait for them to call.
>How about if we made a law that you had to kill the president and your
>congressmen and senators and if you didn't you had to pay a $500.00 fine
>every year? Do you think they would make sure we all made some money?
>How about a law here you could kill any politician that forgot to call
>you sir or ma'am? Or who forgot your birthday?
>We could save a lot of money just by putting all the politicians who are
>running for office on a stage and then killing them at random until we
>had the right number left. Then they would have to think about if they
>really wanted it.
>How about if we let people be elected on a first-come first-serve basis
>but then we could vote to kill them any time we wanted. Think they 
>would do things to make us not want to kill them instead of the other
>way around like it is now?
>How about if we killed all of them and just pretended there was someone
>running the country. Is that a good idea?
>
>






From david at amazing.com  Fri Sep 12 10:15:49 1997
From: david at amazing.com (David H Dennis)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:15:49 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <9709120730.AA15341@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <199709121702.KAA15772@remarkable.amazing.com>



> > From: David H Dennis 
> > I must confess that I'm wondering what Seth Finkelstein, Pro-Government 
> > Warrior,
> 
> 	I resent this part of the description, but let it pass.

It was meant to be amusing, not insulting; I apologise to you for it.

> > thinks of all this. Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a
> > Libertarian world, due to our fundamental distrust of government.
> > Where do they fit in a Liberal one?
> 
> 	I'm *solidly* against such restrictions. Hey, if *Lizard* recommends
> me here, you've got to believe it :-).

No question about this.

I appreciated your lesson; it was lucid and well written.  Of course the
end result in my mind is to put "Don't trust government" in boldface italic
letters about fifty points high.

D







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 12 10:18:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:18:28 +0800
Subject: SAFE
Message-ID: <199709121711.TAA01070@basement.replay.com>



Bible Revelations 13:17:

"And no man shall be able to buy or sell without the mark of the
beast..."

God






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 12 10:19:53 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:19:53 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:13 AM -0700 9/12/97, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>At 1:42 AM -0400 9/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>
>>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>>think) why crypto is important?
>>
>>This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
>>dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"
>>
>>Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
>>staff for education, etc.
>>
>>And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.
>
>True, but if it's war, we gotta get more troops. I don't want to save them,
>I want more troops on my side.
>
>Education is good. Exploiting FUD is probably better. (DoJ's learned
>something from dealing with Microsoft.) Luckily, it ain't that hard to whip
>up Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt against the US Government.

Fair enough. If you can launch an education program, well and good.

I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally thousands of
suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so on.
All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?

As Lucky Green just said, "Cypherpunks write code."

(This can be either direct code, or memetic code, or things related to
getting actual technological changes distributed. What Cypherpunks _don't_
do is try to play the Beltway game that Jerry Berman and his ilk play  (so
poorly, for our issues), or to try to play the Hollywood and Madison Avenue
games of swaying popular opinion.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 12 10:27:28 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:27:28 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
Message-ID: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>



So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original bill
killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...

"John


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From lizard at dnai.com  Fri Sep 12 11:33:33 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:33:33 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912111001.0324020c@dnai.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 10:07 AM 9/12/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago 
with
>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally 
thousands of
>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-
shirts,
>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and 
so on.
>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?

a)Snarf a gig or two of dirty pictures off of Usenet. (About 2 days 
of feed)
b)PGP them all.
c)Set up a 'free' porn site protected solely by AdultCheck, etc, 
which only costs $5.00/year to join. Or just host the site in Denmark 
and forget the 'protection'.
d)Make it REAL easy for ten million horny geeks to download and 
install PGP, so that they can look at the pictures. There's a PGP for 
Windows, right? With a double-click to install and a key-generation 
wizard. (PGP/Eudora, which is what I'm using, is entirely brain-dead 
to install.)

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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L0f2AEOIQ2k8fC3L6+jCdrDg
=pJn4
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From lizard at dnai.com  Fri Sep 12 11:37:10 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:37:10 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970911223056.00cd1da8@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912110426.0324099c@dnai.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:14 AM 9/12/97 -0400, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>At 1:38 AM -0400 9/12/97, Lizard wrote:
>
>>And here we see more of the cult's recruitment. Note how he 
always
>>talks about the *GOVERNMENT* and the *IRS*. Why doesn't he talk 
about Pepsi
>>or GM wanting the keys to your house? More of this 'government bad,
>>business good' propaganda we've all grown so sick and tired of, 
being
>>shoved down our throats. Small wonder this list has gone to hell!" 

>
>Say what? Do you know how much companies pay for information about 
you as a
>member of a demographic? (Think Equifax, Nielsen, or any mailing 
list
>company.)
>
>Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the 
only
>reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.

Sure...that's where the whole privacy debate comes in. Basic point 
is, if I take steps to hide that information from them, they can't 
shoot me. No company, to my knowledge, is claiming a *right* to know 
things about me -- they may demand to know things about me as their 
half of a contract, but I'm free to refuse, or falsify. And I often 
do.

I wonder if the government could 'sell' GAK to liberals, at least the 
dumber ones (not anyone on this list), by saying, "And we'll use it 
to make sure that information collected about you on the web isn't 
used improperly!" (I mean, if businesses encrypt their internal 
communications unbreakably, things like civil rights suits and the 
Pinto 'smoking gun' will be harder to prove as well. )
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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 12 11:41:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:41:15 +0800
Subject: More Drug Raids
Message-ID: 



 Every day there are news reports like this. Sometimes the targets of the
raid die, as in Malibu, sometimes they shoot back and kill some narcs,
sometimes the story gets downplayed, sometimes a new libertarian is made.

In this story, note especially the line about: "They were told that if they
refused, they would be put in handcuffs, a search warrant would be issued,
and their belongings would be tossed into the middle of their rooms."

In these Beknighted States of Amerika, any assertion of Constitutional
rights is met with toilet plungers.

Meanwhile, the LEAs scream for more helicopters, more drug-sniffing dogs,
more Bradley fighting vehicles, more Nomex ninja suits, more M-16s, and
more toilet plungers.

==begin article==

".c The Associated Press

LEE, Mass. (AP) - A federal drug agent publicly apologized Thursday for
raiding the home of a local building inspector on the mistaken suspicion he
was a marijuana trafficker. A spokesman for the couple said, however, they
were awaiting a personal apology and intended to press forward with
complaints.

"This is the all-American family. If it could happen to them, it could
happen to anybody," said state Rep. Chris Hodgkins, a relative who acted as
their spokesman Thursday.

"They are law-abiding citizens, and I'm very, very sorry this happened,"
said George Fester, the agent in charge of the federal Drug Enforcement
Administration's operations in New England.

Daniel Keenan, who serves as building inspector in Lee and neighboring
Stockbridge, said he was reading the newspaper in his front yard on Sept. 5,
with his son playing nearby, when six state and federal officers drove up in
separate cars. The agents told him they had reason to believe that 300 pounds
of marijuana had been in his garage.

Keenan said the agents didn't have a search warrant, but he signed a consent
form allowing the house and garage to be searched.

They were told that if they refused, they would be put in handcuffs, a search
warrant would be issued, and their belongings would be tossed into the middle
of their rooms, Hodgkins said. The agents claimed to have video showing a
drug delivery to the house.

As neighbors and the couple's three young children gathered to watch, the
agents used a drug-sniffing dog to search the house and garage. After a
fruitless two-hour search, they left. But the agents said they might return
for further interrogation.

Festa said an internal investigation was under way to determine just how the
Keenans came to be targeted. He said he was sending a regional supervisor to
talk to the family and also planned to make a personal visit to apologize.

Hodgkins acknowledged that two agents had returned earlier to the house to
discuss the raid with the family, but he said they refused to apologize in
front of the children.

"I want to know how they came to the conclusion this house was the house,
how they came to be so wrong," Keenan's wife, Laurie, said Thursday. "We're
concerned about the shadow of doubt this has created around us."

"We had these cowboys of DEA agents violating their rights," Hodgkins said.
"The kids were terrified. Everybody's still terrified."

He said he was writing complaints on behalf of the family to U.S. Attorney
Donald Stern and state Attorney General Scott Harshbarger.

AP-NY-09-11-97 1835EDT

==end article==







From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 12 12:09:01 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:09:01 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709121853.OAA00844@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/12/97 
   at 09:11 AM, Bill Frantz  said:

>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>think) why crypto is important?

>When I walk through South-of-Market in San Francisco and hear people
>trading URL in conversation as the walk down the street and see URLs on
>TV, Billboards and even the side of busses, I wonder if this assumption
>is really true.

It is. The "Internet" is just a trendy buzz word. Little or no
understanding is behind it's use in conversation and advertizing. Just
take a look at how many clueless dolts use AOL & Comu$erve not to mention
the millions using Net$cape "The illusion of security poster child".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Fri Sep 12 12:10:36 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:10:36 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep12.144325edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:

> all this.  Crypto restrictions are natural to oppose in a Libertarian
> world, due to our fundemental distrust of government.  Where do they
> fit in a Liberal one?

Because of the infinitely recursive controls necessary to implement
liberal policy. 

Example: farm subsidies.

We must set a limit on the number of farmers and what they can produce.
Farmers keep records.  We need GAK to insure the farmers (or their buyers,
etc) can't cheat and grow and sell more grain than their quota.  They pass
laws on farmers, then the wholesalers, then the grocery stores, and
finally need to track your purchases (to prevent you from going to a
roadside market).

Example: Government paid-for health care

Your patient records should be confidential, but the government might
require a physical to pay for an office visit, or say one is redundant, so
they must be able to see what you are being treated for.  Your doctor
(maybe with your cooperation) may be attempting to defraud the system.

Liberalism (or socialism and faschism to avoid confusion) is the use of
government force to obtain economic ends.  When a freely done trade
becomes a crime, they need enforcement powers to track down criminals.

Even in the milder form where they simply tax everyone into poverty and
then give subsidies to make those they choose rich, they need enforcement
powers to prevent people from avoiding the government imposed poverty.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 12 12:11:10 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:11:10 +0800
Subject: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <34196385.FB7F5278@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199709121854.OAA00854@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <34196385.FB7F5278 at netscape.com>, on 09/12/97 
   at 08:45 AM, Tom Weinstein  said:

>Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>> 
>> *** Netscape meets gov't security standard
>> 
>> Netscape Communications Corporation announced Monday the National
>> Institute of Standards and Technology and the Canadian Security
>> Establishment validated the security code in Netscape Communicator
>> client software and Netscape SuiteSpot server software as meeting
>> Federal Information Processing Standards Publications 140-1, "Security
>> Requirements For Cryptographic Modules." Netscape is the only Internet
>> software vendor to comply with the FIPS 140-1 security standard, the
>> company said. (PR Newswire) See full story at
>> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4840046-429

>For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
>C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
>http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html

Exactly what C2 OS are we talking here?!? You are not backing M$ marketing
claims of C2 for NT are you???

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From tomw at netscape.com  Fri Sep 12 12:12:55 1997
From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:12:55 +0800
Subject: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <199709121854.OAA00854@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <341990E0.66EE0BE3@netscape.com>



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <34196385.FB7F5278 at netscape.com>, on 09/12/97
>    at 08:45 AM, Tom Weinstein  said:
>
>> For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
>> C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
>> http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html
> 
> Exactly what C2 OS are we talking here?!? You are not backing M$
> marketing claims of C2 for NT are you???

Last I checked, NT was only C2 when networking was turned off.  Kind of
hard to use our products that way.  In particular, we were certified on
Solaris 2.4SE.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw at netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |






From rpini at rpini.com  Fri Sep 12 12:15:55 1997
From: rpini at rpini.com (Remo Pini)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:15:55 +0800
Subject: Sorry to bother
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912071112.00999450@164.128.61.201>



what's the adress to send subscriptions to?

Greets,

Remo Pini
-----------------------------------------------------
Fate favors the prepared mind. (from "Under Siege 3")
-----------------------------------------------------
Remo Pini                         T: +41  1 350 28 88
Pini Computer Trading             N: +41 79 216 15 51
http://www.rpini.com/                 E: rp at rpini.com
key: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/remopini.asc        
-----------------------------------------------------






From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 12 12:20:34 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:20:34 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional    rights
Message-ID: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>



>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally 
thousands of
>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so 
on.
>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?

Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
thing can't happen again.

Sometimes I think cypherpunks *want* crypto to be outlawed.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 12 12:35:36 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:35:36 +0800
Subject: [fwd][news] Netscape meets gov't security standard
In-Reply-To: <341990E0.66EE0BE3@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199709121918.PAA01411@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <341990E0.66EE0BE3 at netscape.com>, on 09/12/97 
   at 01:58 PM, Tom Weinstein  said:

>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> In <34196385.FB7F5278 at netscape.com>, on 09/12/97
>>    at 08:45 AM, Tom Weinstein  said:
>>
>>> For those of you interested, we are validated at level 2 when used on a
>>> C2 OS, level 1 otherwise.  You can find more info at
>>> http://home.netscape.com/assist/security/faqs/fips140-1.html
>> 
>> Exactly what C2 OS are we talking here?!? You are not backing M$
>> marketing claims of C2 for NT are you???

>Last I checked, NT was only C2 when networking was turned off.  Kind of
>hard to use our products that way.  In particular, we were certified on
>Solaris 2.4SE.

Hehe :)

I just was checking. Last time I bothered to look at NT ratings not only
did it have to be disconnected from the network but all removable media
devices had to be removed also. :)))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 12 12:37:24 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 03:37:24 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912110426.0324099c@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <199709121916.PAA01381@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19970912110426.0324099c at dnai.com>, on 09/12/97 
   at 11:04 AM, Lizard  said:

>I wonder if the government could 'sell' GAK to liberals, at least the 
>dumber ones (not anyone on this list), by saying, "And we'll use it  to
>make sure that information collected about you on the web isn't  used
>improperly!" (I mean, if businesses encrypt their internal 
>communications unbreakably, things like civil rights suits and the  Pinto
>'smoking gun' will be harder to prove as well. )

I am sure there are a few Liberal stooges that have alread been sold that
bill of goods. Several names come to mind but I'll leave that as an
exercise for the reader. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From frissell at panix.com  Fri Sep 12 13:14:44 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:14:44 +0800
Subject: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912154309.035b0a18@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>* Requires that encryption products manufactured and distributed for sale
>or use, or import for sale or use, in the United States after January 31,
>2000 include features or functions that provide, upon presentment of a
>court order, immediate access to plaintext data or decryption information
>from the encryption provider;

Cute trick.  I wonder who's the "provider" of a GNU-licensed piece of 
collectively-written software?

And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and has a 
nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out by 
the roots.

DCF

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 12 13:16:36 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:16:36 +0800
Subject: The Bad Lie / Re: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
Message-ID: 



Chief Cypherpunks Spokesperson, Anonymous wrote:

> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there
> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a
> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

My other brother, Anonymous, points out something obvious but often
forgotten, since "respect for authority" has been ingrained in us
much more than we are generally aware of.

"The winner makes the rules." is a truism, and it has a corollary:
"So does the tyrant."
But nobody ever seems to 'announce' that they are a tyrant. Chairman Mao
wasn't a tyrant. Abraham Lincoln wasn't a tyrant. Sadaam Hussein isn't
a tyrant. Bill Clinton isn't a tyrant.

Well, OK, maybe _some_ of them are tyrants, but only after they are
gone,
and even then, it depends on who the next winner is.
If the winner is, "My other brother, Sadaam." then there is a
difference,
not just in history, but in the present, from what officially recognized 
reality is when "My other brother, the-US-backed-shill." is the winner.

Many people are impressed with themselves for their brilliance in being
able to recognize the truth someone else pointed out, "The winners write
history."
I am more impressed with people who realize that the winners also write
the present. And even more impressed with those who realize that one of
the great scourges of our age is that winners *rewrite* the present.

We live in the age of the Spin Doctor. Our generation has evolved past
the Big Lie, to the 1/2 Lie, to the Bad Lie.
We used to be content to smear our enemies with the Big Lie, so that we
could round up the Communists and not let them work to feed themself
and their families. Then we advanced to the 1/2 Lie, where we would
give lip service to freedom of religion/politics and merely subtly
discriminate against Communists if they applied for a job. Now we
have graduated to the Big Lie, where there are no Communists.

A test you can take in the comfort of your own home:

Question #1:
Yoo hoo! Anybody know what that huge country over there with the
billions
of people and the nuclear warheads is called?
Can you say 'China?' Sure you can...
Why is Communist nuclear power, China, not a threat, as the Russians
were? Because those in power don't _need_ them to be a threat, right
now. How can a country with that many potential consumers possibly
be a threat? Look for them to *become* a threat very quickly if they
nationalize the McDonald's franchises.

Question #2:
Who are the 'good' guys?
Right! *Our* guys!   

Moments In History: WacoShima & RubySaki
  Remember? When all those Japanese committed suicide when they saw
the nuclear bombs coming?
  For those of you too young to remember this event, it was similar
to when all of those Branch Davidians committed suicide when the
military tanks sent to 'save' them began firing chemicals and
explosives into the Waco complex to get rid of the mosquitos so
that the rescue team wouldn't get bitten.

The Bad News:
DoubleSpeak has come and gone, replaced by the Bad Lie.

The Bad Lies:
"I didn't inhale."
"I don't recall." 
(dropping the bomb/shooting the child/seeing the money)
"It is a 'Police Action,' not a War"
"Peace Keeping Force"
"It's a 'PeaceMaker', not an 'Instrument of Doom.'"
"I promise not to cum in your wallet."
"Democracy."

And Even As We Speak:
Newsworld - CBC (TV) - "Four federal inquiries have found no evidence
of price-fixing in the gasoline industry."

News Flash!!!
New study finds Big Oil Executives psychic! All change prices at the
same time, with no collusion.

[Please excuse me for a moment, while I PgUp to remind myself what 
 this post is about.]
Oh, yeah...

> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there
> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a
> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

Kevin McHale, Boston Celtic, replying to comment by reporter that his
teammate, Danny Ainge, was considered the biggest asshole on the pro
basketball circuit:
"Yeah...but he's *our* asshole."

Say what you want about Waco, but parking ticket payments skyrocketed
after the event. Say what you want about Ruby Ridge, but fewer people
have missed court appearances for their parking tickets, since then.
Say what you want about Jim Bell, but now there is hardly anyone on
the Cypherpunks mailing list running around, saying, "NUKE DC!
NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! 
NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC!
NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! NUKE DC! "

	NON-APOLOGY FOR LONG POSTS
        --------------------------
80's Rocker, on the 'new music':
"People don't have time for twenty minute guitar solo's anymore, man.
 They've gotta *be* somewhere."

Note to Zooko:
My other brother, Anonymous, may be a "vile slander", but he is *our*
vile slanderer.

Note to 'my other brother, Anonymous':
But if Zooko hadn't ripped into you, one of us would have.
We're Cypherpunks!

The Bad Lie
~~~~~~~~~~~
"Hand me the nine-iron."







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 12 13:18:56 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:18:56 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
In-Reply-To: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:06 PM -0700 9/12/97, John Smith wrote:
>>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
>>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally
>thousands of
>>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
>>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so
>on.
>>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?
>
>Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
>united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
>defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
>thing can't happen again.
>
>Sometimes I think cypherpunks *want* crypto to be outlawed.

Many of us spent much time fighting this. I don't recall hearing your name
in any of the efforts.

The effort this time around will better be spent deploying crypto widely,
not seeking to influence voters and citizen-units.

Part of why Clipper was not successful is the smear campaign we
successfully mounted against it, making it "uncool" to work on
Clipper-related projects, to use Clipper products, etc. Also, we used
anonymous remailers to great effect, distributing the contents of
Mykotronx's dumpsters to the world, showing their complicity, their
payoffs, their deals with government agencies, etc.

I count these as "monkeywrenchings," and I see them as different from
fruitless efforts to sway _public_ opinion.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 12 13:20:41 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:20:41 +0800
Subject: Liberals and their tacit support for a national security state
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:04 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>> What we _can_ do is prepare for a long guerilla war with the bastards. 80%
>> of the population will willingly trade away their rights ("what have I got
>> to hide?") for more perceived security. Ben Franklin saw this 230 years
>> ago.
>>
>> It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
>> Congress will slightly relax their laws.
>>
>>
>> And in a war, gotta break some eggs.
>>
>> --Tim May
>
>Mostly, I agree -- at least as far as Congress is concerned.  I place
>more hope in the courts, which could be because I've been practicing
>con. law for 19 years (many on f-c know this, but I do not assume that
>Tim knows much about me).

Thanks for providing a better picture. As we "cross-fertilize" these two
lists, Cypherpunks and Fight Censorship, it's apparent we share many of the
same views, but also have differing outlooks (in some collective sum of
views).

>But even though I work within the law, this may become a by any means
>necessary situation.  As I type, I'm remembering when the FBI raided my
>office about a dozen years ago, without so much as a warrant, thank you
>very much, accusing me of violating national security laws.
>Technically, they were right; legally, they were wrong, but they didn't
>give a shit.  Nice reminder (coming from a liberal, for those who've
>just been asking what liberals think) that a little civil disobedience
>now and again is not such a bad thing.

The "liberals" have been remarkable silent on this issue. Most of the
outrage is coming from militia movements (which, I can tell you, are being
briefed daily on this latest ZOG outrage), from anarchist libertarians, and
from conservative groups ("mark of the Beast" and all that).

Perhaps if it were J. Edgar Hoover doing this instead of Democrat Louis
Freeh, we wouldn't see "nominal" liberal Ron Dellums, amongst so many
others, standing shoulder to shoulder with the fascists. (Not that I ever
though Dellums was anything other than a fascist, mind you.)

Perhaps if it were former CIA director George Bush pushing this (in his
alternate universe second term) there would be more outrage from liberals.

I'm beginning to think Federal Bureau of Inquisition Director Unfreeh must,
as rumors have long had it, have the goods on Janet Reno and Bill Clinton.
Left to our imagination what these items may be.

How else to explain how a nominally "civil liberties President" is
presiding over the full transition to a national security state? This from
the draft-dodging, dope-smoking Oxford hippie who claimed he would be the
civil liberties President.

Nothing left to do but nuke the bastards, figuratively.

(I'd say "literally," but I don't have access to the suitcase nukes now
available in the Middle East. And, as we talked about in Cypherpunks, the
suitcase demolition charges are pretty good for knocking out dams and
closing mountain passes, but pretty crummy for leveling buildings several
hundred meters away.)

Monkeywrench GAK, put "Big Brother Inside" stickers on Brother's mandated
equipment, sabotage the corporate GAK efforts (we have supporters buried
deeply in nearly all crypto efforts at nearly all crypto and computer
companies, as anyone can confirm), and establish closer links to other
organizations opposed to the U.S. government.

This may sound radical, but look at the utter radicalism of banning private
communications, of felonizing the use of a damned crypto program, of
allowing intelligence agents to access medical files without court order,
and on and on and on.

Fuck them all. Lock and load. Rock and roll.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tien at well.com  Fri Sep 12 13:22:12 1997
From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:22:12 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:20 AM -0800 9/12/97, John Smith wrote:
>So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
>anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original bill
>killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
>with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...
>

The govt never plays just one game.  This was for them a nice piece of
judo, taking the momentum built up by the lobbying for SAFE, and
redirecting it.

Clinton would veto a "good" bill, and I seriously doubt that anyone ever
thought a veto-proof "good" bill could be fashioned.  The status quo has
great inertia.  Presidents prefer not to veto bills if they don't have to,
though -- the most effective way to use a veto is to make the proponents of
legislation trip over their own feet in trying to get a compromise.

The administration also uses this process as a probe.  Drafts are floated,
and they get feedback.  They learn where the congressfolks really are, see
how effective the tried and true classified briefing is, see how effective
the opposition is.  Many positions can be tested with commitment to none
because there's "internal conflict."

It looks like no-lose for the administration.  If unSAFE passes, they're
ecstatic.  If nothing passes, nothing changes.  Export controls are still
there, and the "voluntary" recoverable crypto initiative continues apace.

Lee








From frissell at panix.com  Fri Sep 12 13:22:17 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:22:17 +0800
Subject: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <199709120224.EAA09212@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912161151.035b44b0@panix.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:24 AM 9/12/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:

>I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
>which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
>rights by any government elected or not.

In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International Law 
may *require* you to overthrow your government.

DCF
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From harka at nycmetro.com  Fri Sep 12 13:23:04 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:23:04 +0800
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122019.QAA15127@linux.nycmetro.com>



lag test






From harka at nycmetro.com  Fri Sep 12 13:25:22 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:25:22 +0800
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122019.QAA15122@linux.nycmetro.com>




lag test






From harka at nycmetro.com  Fri Sep 12 13:29:04 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:29:04 +0800
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122019.QAA15132@linux.nycmetro.com>




lag test






From harka at nycmetro.com  Fri Sep 12 13:39:50 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:39:50 +0800
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709122018.QAA15117@linux.nycmetro.com>




lag test






From fu at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 13:50:34 1997
From: fu at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:50:34 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3419A7F0.1567@dev.null>



Fuck You
~~~~~~~~






From fu at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 13:52:41 1997
From: fu at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:52:41 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3419A33F.2C94@dev.null>



Glenn Hauman wrote:
 
> Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
> reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.

For now...

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 12 13:54:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:54:08 +0800
Subject: Sorry, Tim / Re: Snuffle Destroys United States: Film at 11
Message-ID: <199709122040.WAA22377@basement.replay.com>



Peter D. Junger wrote:
> Mike Duvos writes:
> : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "Snuffle" was some
> : simple-minded cipher designed to test ITAR.  I didn't think it
> : was something anyone would choose to incorporate into a serious
> : product.
> 
> I am quite sure that you are wrong in this.  It is a serious program
> written to demonstrate Bernstein's algorithm for converting a secure
> hash function (which as it happens is exportable) into an encryption
> program (which is not exportable).  It certainly was not written to
> test the ITAR and restricting it under the ITAR or the EAR was and is
> rather odd as it contains no encryption code itself.  Or, at least,
> that is my understanding.

Tim,
Sorry I called you senile (even though I enjoyed it), since it turns
out that I was too senile to respond to your "can they do this? can
they do that" post with as good an example as above, as to what the
government can and cannot do.
After Pat Robertson becomes President, we can look forward to "Marilyn
Manson" having his/her 'encryption' fall under the ITAR and EAR rules,
regulations, restrictions, etc., etc., etc.

SenileMonger







From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 12 13:58:35 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:58:35 +0800
Subject: Thanks from NIST
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:05:56 -0600
From: someone at somewhere.nist.gov
To: declan at well.com
Subject: Thanks

Thanks for the warning about SAFE. I was too suspicious of the way
government works to send any supporting mail and now you have confirmed my
reasoning.






From fu at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 13:58:47 1997
From: fu at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:58:47 +0800
Subject: Self-Prohibition List
Message-ID: <3419A19C.1172@dev.null>



List of things you should prohibit yourself from putting in writing
in a GAK'ed Universe:

1. You're Jewish.







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 12 14:04:35 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:04:35 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks mailing list starts in Japan
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: hanabusa at postbox.bnn-net.or.jp
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:44:50 +0900
To: gnu at toad.com, tcmay at got.net, hugh at xanadu.com, shamrock at netcom.com,
        vince at offshore.com.ai, ddt at lsd.com, eb at comsec.com, sameer at c2.net,
        rah at shipwright.com, sandfort at crl.com, iang at cs.berkeley.edu
From: "Sh.Hanabusa" 
Subject: Cypherpunks mailing list starts in Japan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

News.

Today we have a new mailing list "cypherpunks-j". (for Japanese and English)
It is hosted by Joichi Ito.
This is the first step for cypherpunk movement in Japan.
I hope this list changes this country.

> Mailing-List: contact cypherpunks-j-help at htp.org; run by ezmlm
> Sender: cypherpunks-j-owner at htp.org
> Reply-To: cypherpunks-j at htp.org
> X-ftpsite-URL: ftp://ftp.htp.org/pub/crypto/
> X-unsubscribe-URL: mailto:cypherpunks-j-unsubscribe at htp.org
> X-subscribe-URL: mailto:cypherpunks-j-subscribe at htp.org
> Delivered-To: mailing list cypherpunks-j at htp.org
> X-Sender: joiito at pop4.ibm.net
> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:20:41 +0200
> From: Joichi Ito 
> Subject: [cpj:65] welcome to cypherpunks-j
> Mime-Version: 1.0
>
> so... this is the new list... lets see if it works.
>
> I made it cypherpunks-j, but I put cpj in the subject... what do you think?
>
> I hope this works...
>
>  - Joi
>

   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa at bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/Special Programs, NHK Enterprises 21 Inc.
     Location: Tokyo / Japan
     PGP Fingerprint (DSS)
     5696 2D67 8DF1 89C6 6E30  6E9A 7A7E 08A9 A75E 5BD7
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/


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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From fu at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 14:04:49 1997
From: fu at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:04:49 +0800
Subject: WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU PEOPLE? / Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <34199FC3.3F34@dev.null>



J. Lasser wrote:
> In the wise words of David H Dennis: 

> > Libertarians 
> > Liberal
> 
> 'Liberal' 
>  _civil_ libertarians

  When you two 'wise' men are done playing kissy-face, why don't
you get together and build some bombs?
  Debating class is over, it's time to move into the Lab.

  If you guys are serious about what you are discussing, just wait
a couple of years and ask your jailer's opinion.
  In the end, he will have the last say, anyway.

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~







From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Fri Sep 12 14:12:49 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:12:49 +0800
Subject: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:27:06 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu,
    fight-censorship-announce at vorlorn.mit.edu
Subject: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother

At 11:37 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
..
> That's why the encryption outlook in Congress is abysmal. Crypto-advocates
> have lost, and lost miserably. A month ago, the debate was about export
> controls. Now the battle is over how strict the //domestic// controls will
> be. It's sad, really, that so many millions of lobbyist-dollars were not
> only wasted, but used to advance legislation that has been morphed into a
> truly awful proposal.

This suggests the battle is over and lost.  It's not, and a tone of this
sort only plays into the FBI's hands.  Feeling like they're on a roll, if
the community throws in the towel now, as your tone above suggests, we cede
defeat and get domestic restrictions.

We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor,
and I, and nobody else, should give up until it's dragged from our
rigor-mortis-addled hands.  In Congress, there are still votes left, and we
should be fighting to make sure that no member of Congress that has a vote
at any point in this process should cast that vote without knowing that
their net constituents care about this.  They may not always vote with
their constituents' wishes (and that is frustrating to all of us) but we
certain-as-hell shouldn't let them make that call without having at least
constituent input.

You want to see effectiveness and change, do something constructive instead
of whining on the net.  For example, let people know that by signing up for
the Adopt Your Legislator program at http://www.crypto..com/member/ they
will be notified before and after every vote that their legislator is a
party to, complete with phone and fax nnmbers.

It may look gloomy now, but bad votes should only make us madder and more
determined to lobby Congress.  It's easy to complain about the fact that
you don't like the direction the boat is going; much harder to devote your
energies to actually changing the course.  Pick up an oar and row.

If you get domestic restrictions on encryption and you haven't been calling
your member of Congress on a regular basis to tell them to do the right
thing, you'll get exactly the kind of government you've invested in.

-S

PS I would like this to go to fight-censorship-announce as well, please.







From fu at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 14:13:01 1997
From: fu at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:13:01 +0800
Subject: Final Mark / Re: test
In-Reply-To: <199709122019.QAA15122@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3419AC90.22F6@dev.null>



harka at nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> lag test

  B+ 
(Lacked proper capitalization and punctuation, but spelling was 
 excellent. Keep up the good work!)

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~







From fu at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 14:15:48 1997
From: fu at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:15:48 +0800
Subject: CypherPunks Write GAK / Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912154309.035b0a18@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3419AB69.2E9B@dev.null>



Duncan Frissell wrote:
 
> And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and has a
> nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out by
> the roots.

Duncan hits the nail on the head. We need more cypherpunks writing 
GAK code.
Can you spell 'backdoor'? Sure you can...

Write the shit so the GAK part can be deinstalled/worked around/faked.

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~







From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep 12 14:18:51 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:18:51 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



Don't be too sure. The national security establishment is swarming on
Capitol Hill. They have momentum. SAFE and ProCODE are dead and gutted. 
The chair of House Rules is now eager to push SAFE to the floor for a
vote. What, you think Clinton won't sign the new SAFE bill? 

If the FBI/NSA just wanted to kill SAFE or ProCODE, there were much easier
ways. Just have a committee chair sit on it forever. No, they're in this
for keeps. 

-Declan


On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:

> So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
> anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original bill
> killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
> with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...







From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 12 14:21:01 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:21:01 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3419A33F.2C94@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709122103.RAA03967@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3419A33F.2C94 at dev.null>, on 09/12/97 
   at 02:17 PM, Fuck You  said:

>Glenn Hauman wrote:
> 
>> Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
>> reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.

>For now...

>Fuck You
>~~~~~~~~

Hmmmm seems that we have an intellectual on the list.

Now the $64 question? Did he go to Harvard or Stanford to get that liberal
arts degree??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 12 14:25:17 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:25:17 +0800
Subject: CypherPunks Write GAK / Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <3419AB69.2E9B@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709122117.RAA04421@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3419AB69.2E9B at dev.null>, on 09/12/97 
   at 02:51 PM, Fuck You  said:

>Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
>> And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and has a
>> nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out by
>> the roots.

>Duncan hits the nail on the head. We need more cypherpunks writing  GAK
>code.
>Can you spell 'backdoor'? Sure you can...

>Write the shit so the GAK part can be deinstalled/worked around/faked.

Even better would be to write the code with the backdoors and then release
into the public domain the backdoors. :)

This would especially work for governemnt systems that the CIA,NSA,FBI,
et. al. are using. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From unicorn at schloss.li  Fri Sep 12 15:31:33 1997
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:31:33 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>



At 11:06 PM 9/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>[Jonah Seiger writes]:
>> > There are important policy implications of this language.  And
politically,
>> > it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be critical at all,
>> > considering that the Committee voted to substantially undercut the bill
>> > (one of Reinsch's top priorities).  Perhaps you missed this nuance.
>
>[Declan takes over]:
>> 
>> The "important policy implication" of this language may just be Freeh
>> serving as a convenient launching platform for trial balloons. Reinsch can
>> swat them down as he sees fit if they get hit by too severe a barrage,
>> then reintroduce them later after the clamor dies down. (Politically, BTW,
>> it is much more interesting what Gore said today than Reinsch.) Like I
>> said, bad cop and worse cop. Reinsch was critical of nuances -- ones that
>> you perhaps missed -- not the general plan to wire in Big Brother.
>> 
>
>Gore didn't say shit.  Sorry but there is no polite way to say this.  
>Gore's remarks at the SPA speech were a great example of "state speak" 
>which the State Dept. has perfected, saying much and in "code" through 
>the use of phrasing and even tone.
>
>Gore said the White House couldn't support Freeh's plan... what he meant 
>was "yet" because, in fact, thereis no formal plan to "accept."

What the (nameless) SPA keynote speaker said (on stage and off to the sides
after his presentation) was much more interesting.  The words "old dogs,
new tricks" and some private discussion I share with him convince me that
the administration is violently split.  Understand that in the Washington
world his comments betray a extremely heated debate behind the scenes.

Bottomline, the United States is probably going to get the administation
bill next year and we will have to take strong crypto there underground.
(This is because there is no compromise.  Either the government can break
it at will, or it can't).  Unfortunate, but clearly the most probable outcome.

>But the minute that the House or Senate pass such a proposal out of 
>committee is the minute WhH policy changes.  And I'll be anyone one 
>that... any takers?
>
>Gore is playing word games, practing for the run for the money in 2000.

The only glimmer of hope is the little whisperings that I heard over the
week which say the anti-crypto language put in by intelligence will be
yanked out all over again in (Judiciary?).







From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Sep 12 15:50:58 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:50:58 +0800
Subject: Random crypto legal stuff
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912154145.00b567e0@mail.io.com>




I just talked to a docket clerk at the Ninth Circuit - they say that no
oral argument has been scheduled in the Bernstein case (case # is 97-16686
at the appellate level), and no action has been taken since the
government's emergency stay motion was filed.

Also, I spoke with someone at BXA re their updated crypto EARs - they
confirmed that a second draft has been prepared, but say that it's
circulating "at the inter-agency level" and is not available to the public,
even though they'll be discussing it in Portland in two weeks.

 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep 12 16:32:47 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:32:47 +0800
Subject: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Lee, of course, has it exactly right. This is why (in retrospect) the
attempt to pass SAFE was doomed -- and dangerous. Crypto-advocates didn't
have enough votes to override a veto and likely never will, as long as
this is a "national security issue." If you're going to try the
legislative route, elect a crypto-friendly president first. Maybe
Ashcroft, one potential candidate, will be that fellow. Certainly
Kerrey-with-an-e, also jockeying for the job, isn't. 

What the Net-lobbyists did was open the lid of a Pandora's Box they didn't
have the strength to close.

I'm not the only one who thinks so. Two people have griped to me in so
many hours about how milquetoast and disinterested Silicon Valley is in
crypto. They shouldn't have started something they didn't have the strengh
to finish, especially if it has such dire consequences when perverted. 

Message to Net-lobbyists: look at what happened when this time. Please
concentrate on blocking all crypto legislation, not trying to fix it.
(Yes, I realize you won't have anything do with crypto, won't "be a
player." Shucks.) The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is
not that bad.

-Declan


On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

> The govt never plays just one game.  This was for them a nice piece of
> judo, taking the momentum built up by the lobbying for SAFE, and
> redirecting it.
> 
> Clinton would veto a "good" bill, and I seriously doubt that anyone ever
> thought a veto-proof "good" bill could be fashioned.  The status quo has
> great inertia.  Presidents prefer not to veto bills if they don't have to,
> though -- the most effective way to use a veto is to make the proponents of
> legislation trip over their own feet in trying to get a compromise.
> 
> The administration also uses this process as a probe.  Drafts are floated,
> and they get feedback.  They learn where the congressfolks really are, see
> how effective the tried and true classified briefing is, see how effective
> the opposition is.  Many positions can be tested with commitment to none
> because there's "internal conflict."
> 
> It looks like no-lose for the administration.  If unSAFE passes, they're
> ecstatic.  If nothing passes, nothing changes.  Export controls are still
> there, and the "voluntary" recoverable crypto initiative continues apace.






From sunder at brainlink.com  Fri Sep 12 16:42:39 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:42:39 +0800
Subject: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor.

Frankly among certain crowds many backdoors and other bugs have been
detected in most OS's, how will the mother fuckers keep them from being
found and used?  I mean, all you have to do is simply get their attention
and have them snoop on you, meanwhile you watch all the packets and record
the weird ones and you've got a copy of their session.  Yeah, they may use
crypto on the back door, but even so, you now know their formats, and can
also disassemble the code.  When you do, you've got the hole and can
publish it. 

Once you publish the hole and break the program.  Who will have confidence
in that program after it's broken?

After the evil laws, our jobs will be to break ALL GAK'ed software.  How
will they prevent that?  Passing more laws to make the exposure of bugs
and holes illegal?  Sort of like the cell scanner laws? :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 12 16:42:51 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:42:51 +0800
Subject: Information Please (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709122348.SAA23472@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:11:51 -0400
> From: Duncan Frissell 
> Subject: Re: Information Please

> >I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
> >which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
> >rights by any government elected or not.
> 
> In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International Law 
> may *require* you to overthrow your government.

 
		    In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. 
 
		    A   D E C L A R A T I O N 
 
		  By the REPRESENTATIVES of the 
 
	 U N I T E D   S T A T E S   O F   A M E R I C A, 
 
		    In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled. 
 
 
When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for 
one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected 
them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, 
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and 
of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the Opinions 
of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which 
impel them to the Separation. 
 

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 12 16:52:32 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:52:32 +0800
Subject: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:03 pm -0400 on 9/11/97, Dave Del Torto forwarded:

>  Ranking
> Democrat Norm Dicks (WA-6).
           ^^^^^^^^^^
Excuse me while I laugh so hard the milk comes out my nose.

Oooops... Self re-flatulance. Excuse me...


So, let's have fun, if it's really possible, with a name, shall we?

Um,

Normless Dick?

Normie Dickless?

I also find it hard that a "ranking democrat" has a normal dick, anyway,
impute that how you will...


Wiping the front of my shirt, now,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From brianbr at together.net  Fri Sep 12 16:55:14 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:55:14 +0800
Subject: 
Message-ID: <199709122333.TAA01905@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/12/97 1:31 AM, Anonymous (nobody at REPLAY.COM)  passed this wisdom:

 [snip]

>Now think about this: You're Joe Random Govt. Worker at the 
>official secret key repository, and there's a budget crisis going 
>on - instead of paychecks, you're getting I.O.U.'s. Your terminal 
>has access to thousands, perhaps millions, of secret keys. You grab 
>one of CitiBank's, forge a few transactions, and 30 seconds later 
>your Swiss bank account is a few million dollars fatter and 
>according to the digital signature, the transaction originated in 
>L.A.. 

 Please correct me if I am wrong, but could not a GAK backdoor be
written that will simply permit decryption only of the ciphertext and
not encryption. Would not this prevent this from happening?

  Don'tget me wrong. It scares the hell out of me too, but maybe, in
addition to that various things Tim has suggested we might also
consider how to make the GAK as secure as cam be to minimize its
potential for disaster.

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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to 
   stand by and do nothing"  Edmund Burke







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 12 16:57:50 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:57:50 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 7:23 am -0400 on 9/12/97, Will Rodger wrote:


> "Twas none other than Adam Smith - Rep. from Microsoft's own Puget
> sound. I saw his hand.

Ohhhh.

I can see it now, 5 years hence:

"Bill Gates was indicted for treason today by special order of President
Gore. His vast ill-gotten fortune has been impounded under the RICO laws."

Call me paranoid. Call me anything you want. Just don't call me late for
supper. ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 12 17:02:43 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:02:43 +0800
Subject: Liberals and their tacit support for a national security state
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I'm beginning to think Federal Bureau of Inquisition Director Unfreeh must,
> as rumors have long had it, have the goods on Janet Reno and Bill Clinton.
> Left to our imagination what these items may be.

I don't know if I'd go that far. Though look at J. Edgar Hoover. Nixon
tried to fire him twice, asked him to come into the Oval Office for a
private meeting. Each time Hoover emerged unscathed, allegedly because of
the contents of his secret files.

The feeding frenzy and chaos in Washington after Hoover's death was, by
all accounts, amazing. Who would maintain control of his files?
(Ultimately, his secretary did. Shredded some, hid some of them in
Hoover's house.) 

-Declan







From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 12 17:06:14 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:06:14 +0800
Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709130004.TAA23630@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse

>    Libertarianism is not about anarchy, utopia, or selfishness. Instead,
>    libertarians simply are skeptical of "nanny government," and recognize
>    the many ways state power has been abused in the past. They believe
>    that government programs like health assistance, Social Security,
>    foreign aid, and corporate welfare do more harm than good. They argue
>    that everyone must be equal before the law, and everyone has human
>    rights to personal security, to property, and to free speech that the
>    government must protect, not violate.

If the Libertarians are so gung-ho on avoiding governmental (especialy
federal) intervention in their lives why do they support the 14th Amendment?
Why do they steadfastly stick to the position that the states should be
forced to be homogenous in their laws under the federal government? It is
clear that the founding fathers wanted the situation in the several states
to be quite dynamic and diverse, otherwise why "Congress shall make no
law..." and not something more comprehensive preventing the states from such
laws as well?

Why do they further not ask why the 9th and 10th are not fully respected and
used by both the legislative and judicial branches of the federal
government?

No, the Libertarians have an agenda that is broader than simply reducing the
intervention of government in our daily lives. They want a situation that
provides them the upper hand, both politicaly and economicaly, while at the
same time reducing the ability of their opponents to gain an advantage. From
this perspective they are just another elephant or jackass...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 12 17:50:19 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:50:19 +0800
Subject: Prayer to A.M. Turing
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Alan Turing writes:
>> Adam Back wrote:
>> >Your email to Lord Turing may bounce, your hashcash postage doesn't
>> >collide:
>> >
>> >% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51
>> >collision: 0 bits
>> >%
>> 
>> Add an "f".
>
>Impressed:
>
>% ashcash AlanMathisonTuring 10110AlanMathisonTuring8ef2b1912670b51f
>collision: 33 bits
>%
>
>That collision would take 30 hours to generate on my pentium.

Dear Lord Turing, 

Please buy Adam a new computer.

Your Friend,

Monty Cantsin

P.S. 10116AlanMathisonTuringf344355bfb358bdf

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBmpt5aWtjSmRH/5AQEZnAf7BbLEswS1fZYiC3oSNBPHtop7WX8sTAAg
hLQYXKsEEtvg15pCA8icRZz7J6vGFjLbKeuWVu7rUVVVEPCg8t+ZRp1ZFLR+TJAO
Kh4eDxWoQ1GbJnlEsFQQwyzbUBGuV4fJ2lZ66HjO43kgICemN7sPdi3U2uxwIVfo
HM6c6gjMb9q17lPLa8S3d4Q4mrd/dnmO6E+b4pwND919G7GCKv7Rr4Jv5YORAqmr
UiPSoFLmGaKdrTpodsuu1bZtVNAZaJv7EZBmS9lNHMkeLjmfj3rpGNMh4+Q4rQRc
Nb1oR2q0b8lswmc3qpaAE5OBPSZmkwR1glxxG61fcZld58rpP+klbA==
=JycN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From enoch at zipcon.net  Fri Sep 12 17:50:22 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:50:22 +0800
Subject: "Big [American] Brother" watches YOU
Message-ID: <19970913004537.8460.qmail@zipcon.net>



Igor Chudov (ichudov at algebra.com) quotes Johm Markoff

 > But government officials disputed the idea that requiring
 > decoding technology would necessarily mean the technology
 > would be used.

 > ``There is nothing about putting this enabling technology
 > into law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on,''
 > said Robert LITT [J?], a deputy assistant U.S. attorney in
 > the Justice Department's criminal division. ``From the
 > law-enforcement point of view, this is a better way to
 > provide for our public safety.''

In other news, Nazi Party officials disputed the idea that
requiring all Jewish showers to be "gas chamber enabled" would
necessarily mean that the technology would be used.

"There is nothing about putting this enabling technology into
law that will inevitably lead to it being turned on," said SS
Obergruppenfurher Reinhard Freeh, a deputy assistant Reich
Chancellor for Racial Hygiene. "From the National Socialist point
of view, this is simply a better way to provide for our eugenic
safety."

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 12 18:42:08 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:42:08 +0800
Subject: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
Message-ID: <199709130012.BAA06748@notatla.demon.co.uk>



Declan,

> Message to Net-lobbyists: look at what happened when this time. Please
> concentrate on blocking all crypto legislation, not trying to fix it.
> (Yes, I realize you won't have anything do with crypto, won't "be a
> player." Shucks.) The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is
> not that bad.

Would you like to post confirmation that this is not sarcasm ?


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From redsonja at liii.com  Fri Sep 12 18:44:45 1997
From: redsonja at liii.com (She Devil With A Modem)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:44:45 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <199709130050.UAA29850@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199709130132.VAA13357@rowan.liii.com>



Also Sprach Ray Arachelian:
> 
> On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor.
 
It is not just a right, it is very nearly almost a law of NATURE. Not
just a creation of logic, but a certainty that cannot be compensated for
or guarded against. 
 
> Frankly among certain crowds many backdoors and other bugs have been
> detected in most OS's, how will the mother fuckers keep them from being
> found and used?  I mean, all you have to do is simply get their attention
> and have them snoop on you, meanwhile you watch all the packets and record
> the weird ones and you've got a copy of their session.

Don't get distracted by wasting too much time in inappropriate places.
My definition of "inappropriate places" being "places that do not yield 
enough information perceived as useful". 

The people who are viewed as the "enemy" here have a hell of a lot more
experience judging the value of information as a weapon. (Not that this
should be discouraging, just taken into consideration.) The weapon can
and does become useless, especially if it concerns personal information,
if the person involved has the emotional strength to be able to resist
emotional blackmail. 

An enormous victory can be won by the STRONG, who are capable of 
withstanding personal attack in this regard and causing the enemy to
waste enormous amounts of their time trying to accomplish impossible
goals of erosion on individual self esteem. 

If you believe that this is mere paranoia, I urge you to make a serious
examination of the circumstances of Alan Turing's death. As cypherpunks,
you should all be interested enough to do so. His death and the shady
circumstance surrounding it are a thing to be learned from.

> After the evil laws, our jobs will be to break ALL GAK'ed software.  How
> will they prevent that?  Passing more laws to make the exposure of bugs
> and holes illegal?  Sort of like the cell scanner laws? :)

There is a certain amount of quality control that the cypherpunks are
doing for the intelligence agencies, and those same are perfectly 
willing to allow you to continue to do that...for now. Nor is it any
coincidence that (I'm sure) some of you have been approached by said
places with terms of employment and/or indoctrination.

And of course this publicly available list is well populated with
people who are perfectly willing to spam it with controversial and
time-wasting rhetoric, designed to make those of you who are good at
coding angry enough to waste your time denouncing their "chaff" instead. 

You are not dealing with either stupid or moral people when it comes
to TLAs. Remember this, please. Once I believed in this country enough
to die for it, I believed their propaganda and their lies. That was 
before I got a good eyeful of the incompetence, cruel lack of concern 
for human lives, the obsession with power and the selfish greed that
permeates the American military; the unnamed "fourth branch" of our 
government; the sort of people who would allow a five BILLION dollar
facility in Maryland to be built for their pleasure while people in
New York and Los Angeles and Austin and Chicago - CITIES IN THE SAME
COUNTRY THEY HAVE SUPPOSEDLY SWORN TO DEFEND - are dying of starvation,
drug addiction, poor medical care, and the odd police brutality incident!

I ask, no, I BEG you now, those of you who have the power to fight this:
retain your individualistic morals and let no one subvert them by any 
means, because they are TRULY what our country was founded upon! I still
believe in those ideals, yes - in SPITE of my exposure to the pack of
misguided, selfish, greedy sons of bitches who have managed after two
hundred years to turn it into a travesty of what it once was, and what
it once meant to me.

Don't let them jam you with their chaff! Ignore the bullshit and THINK!
It's the LAST thing THEY want you to do!

-- 
"It was sweet to hear of the Pathfinder      | Do not           CD  c
 engineer's bumper sticker: 'My other        | taunt --------P===\==/
 vehicle is on Mars!'" -- Stan Kelly-Bootle, | happy fun         /_\__
                        Unix Review Oct 1997 | fencer!             _\ \






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 12 18:45:15 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:45:15 +0800
Subject: Party on! A patent falls, and the Internet dances
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Party on! A patent falls, and the Internet dances

[Thanks to everyone who showed up to my patent celebration party last
Saturday. We had a lively -- even rambunctious -- mix of cypherpunks, Hill
staffers, Clinton administration officials, think tank and privacy folks,
reporters, and lobbyists. --Declan]

***********

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/090697patent.html

New York Times
CyberTimes
September 6, 1997

A Patent Falls, and the Internet Dances

By PETER WAYNER

hen tyrants die, the people parade with the head on a
stick; when loved ones pass on in Ireland, the
families celebrate a life well-lived; but when patents
expire, they often slip away into the night.

>From the beginning, though, patent 4,200,770 was
different. This Saturday night a group of computer
scientists, Internet fanatics and Beltway politicos
will gather in Washington, D.C.; Silicon Valley; and
Boston to celebrate the end of the patent granted to
Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman for a way to
encrypt data.

The party will toast the beginning of the end of an
era when some of the greatest techniques for
encrypting information were controlled by a few
pivotal companies. The science of secret codes is
proving to be essential technology for securing the
Internet, and the techniques developed by Diffie and
Hellman are some of the most useful. Banks use them to
protect their money, companies use them to defend
against industrial espionage and parents use them to
protect their children against pedophiles and
pornographers trolling the Internet.

The patent granted to Diffie and Hellman is the first
of a group that emerged from scientists at Stanford
University and the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology during the end of the 1970's. On October 6,
patent 4,218,582 will expire. It was granted to
Hellman and Ralph Merkle, another graduate student at
the time, for a public key encryption system that was
later broken. The most famous patent, however, was
probably the one given to Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir and
Len Adleman, who were all at MIT at the time. It will
last until September 20, 2000.

[...]









From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep 12 18:50:18 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:50:18 +0800
Subject: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: <199709130012.BAA06748@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: 



This is in fact not sarcasm.

Under the status quo, you can use whatever crypto program you want
domestically. This would change radically for the worse if the new SAFE
bill passes.

Sure the status quo is not that great. But it's much better than what
Congress is concocting right now.

-Declan



On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Antonomasia wrote:

> Declan,
> 
> > Message to Net-lobbyists: look at what happened when this time. Please
> > concentrate on blocking all crypto legislation, not trying to fix it.
> > (Yes, I realize you won't have anything do with crypto, won't "be a
> > player." Shucks.) The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is
> > not that bad.
> 
> Would you like to post confirmation that this is not sarcasm ?
> 
> 
> --
> ##############################################################
> # Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
> # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
> ##############################################################
> 






From fu at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 19:01:10 1997
From: fu at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:01:10 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <199709122103.RAA03967@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <3419DBB2.33B0@dev.null>



William H. Geiger III wrote: 
> In <3419A33F.2C94 at dev.null>, on 09/12/97
>    at 02:17 PM, Fuck You  said:
> >Glenn Hauman wrote:
> >
> >> Corporations want as much info on you as possible-- luckily, the only
> >> reason they want it is to sell you stuff, not to arrest you.
> 
> >For now...
> 
> >Fuck You
> >~~~~~~~~
> 
> Hmmmm seems that we have an intellectual on the list.
> 
> Now the $64 question? Did he go to Harvard or Stanford to get that liberal
> arts degree??

Kent State.
My studies were in 'Political Philosophy', but when it came time
to give me a degree, they "gave me the 'Business'," instead.

Fuck You
"Yes. I _do_ have a hole in my head."







From bianca at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 19:01:24 1997
From: bianca at dev.null (Bianca)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:01:24 +0800
Subject: Hint: He's your worst nightmare...
Message-ID: <3419EC2C.6D78@dev.null>



Lag Test #2: Who has returned to the CypherPunks mailing list after
             a long fucking absence?

Answer: [Your wrong guess here.]

Lag Test #3: What was the most obvious sign of his absence?

Answer: [Wrong answer here.]

Lag Test #4: Why is he really, really pissed?

Answer: [Don't worry. He'll let you know.]







From fu at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep 12 19:08:55 1997
From: fu at sk.sympatico.ca (Fuck You)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:08:55 +0800
Subject: If you don't have anything to say in the Subject line, why should we expect you have anything to say in the message body?
In-Reply-To: <199709122333.TAA01905@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <3419F0D5.2542@sk.sympatico.ca>



Brian B. Riley wrote:

>   Don'tget me wrong. It scares the hell out of me too, but maybe, in
> addition to that various things Tim has suggested we might also
> consider how to make the GAK as secure as cam be to minimize its
> potential for disaster.

  Glad, you asked...
  The reason I am posting as 'Fuck You' is that it saves time giving
my standard answer to the increasing number of idiots, schills, and
pawns on the CypherPunks list, these days.
  Not that I'm complaining, you understand. I 'like' saying, "Fuck You."
I like it a lot. As a matter of fact, I like it so fucking much that I
am amazed that the fucking idiots who ought to know better like the
person who has stolen my Net persona more than me, just because she
has a great pair of tits.
  Men...

  Oh yeah...about the post I am replying to, here.
  Brian. The bytes you saved by not including a Subject header were more
than wasted by the useless words you put in the message body.

  Close, but no cigar, Bri. Let me rephrase that for you.
   "we might also consider how to make the GAK as 'apparently' secure as 
cam (bad grammar and spelling left intact) to minimize its potential for
disaster."
  There _is_ no 'secure' in the government computer lexicon, Bri. Not 
even in the 'Cyphernomicon' will you find the word 'secure' found, used
as a substite for the phrase, "We're SAFE now, the government is using
a 'rubber'."

  Go back outside and come in again, next time with a Subject header and
a new list persona. You've pretty much ruined the one you're using now.

Fuck You
--------






From shamrock at netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 19:19:04 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:19:04 +0800
Subject: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912190550.0076863c@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 07:25 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Lee, of course, has it exactly right. This is why (in retrospect) the
>attempt to pass SAFE was doomed -- and dangerous.

I hate to say this, but "I told you so". And I was not the only one. Nobody
that subscribes to Cypherpunks can claim hindight.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From ahoier at juno.com  Fri Sep 12 19:21:30 1997
From: ahoier at juno.com (CYPHER ? PUNK)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:21:30 +0800
Subject: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <19970912.214414.8862.2.ahoier@juno.com>



Could somebody tell me what the CLUE SERVER is cause I tryed to search it
in Yahoo! but they didn't give me anything on CLUE SERVER so could
somebody e-mail me and tell me where the CLUE SERVER is located
PLEASE!!!!!!!  Also could somebody give me more info on PGP
Signatures??????  If somebody could download the software for me Id be
real HAPPY:-))))((((-:  COuls somebody tell me if I can just upload my
PGP Signature to my E-MAIL or do i have to put it on my hard drive
because the Computer ain't mine so I dont wanna put something on my
brothers hard drive so could somebody give me some more info????????????


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: HyRMcbGm8DN7BxUVL/6EunpyDLmTX8Wj

iQA/AwUBNAneIl7MfpC8gEO7EQIOIgCeM6giFdXXS1Idut3q941mSEEc8CAAoITk
142XgrvDAUe3CMwH4jTRiJZi
=jvrj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From itys at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 19:21:53 1997
From: itys at dev.null (I Told You So)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:21:53 +0800
Subject: Fuck ITAR in the EAR
Message-ID: <3419E881.5C02@dev.null>



Hello CoE cell mates,

I notice Bubba, or was that TruthMonger, one of them anyway, has been
ranting about stirring some shit for the GAKkers by exporting
something from the US by way of Canada.

I have it from a good source that it is perfectly legal to do this as
there is a loop-whole in Candian law.  But you have to do it in a
particular way.

Lets say you wish to export PGP from Canada.  Your American accomplice
emails you PGP.  You write to the appropriate canadian department of
export controls telling them: "I'm going to export PGP.  I just
imported it from the US.  I am required by Canadian law to inform you
in writing before I do this.  Consider yourself informed".  Post the
letter.  Then export PGP.

(The amercian accomplice is optional, you can just import it yourself
if you can find a US site which will give it to you with a domain of
dev.null or sympatico.ca, should be doable, William Geigher's site has
it for open download for instance.)

Ok the wording above in quotes is important, if you _ask_ them for
permission, they'll faff around and not give it to you.  But the point
is you _don't need their permission_ according to Canadian law, you're
just supposed to inform them _before_ the export.

So apparently there have been some very interesting crypto things
exported this way.  All that happens to the canadian person is that
they receive a letter from the Canadian export control bods with much
teeth gnashing and entreatments not to export, please.  Guess this
letter would be worthy of framing and hanging on the wall along beside
Bubba Rom Dos portrait.

Voila.

Course that may not have the desired effect.  If you want to cause
more shit, do things in the wrong order.  That is export it, then
write them saying "I am required to inform you prior to export.  I
think this is stupid.  I exported PGP last week.  So arrest me."

btw all these clear text Bcc's... not that I mind or anything, but I
prefer PGP encrypted emails, that way the bubba rants etc provides
nice cover traffic for my real nefarious purposes.

You can `remail' the story if you like (I'm pretty sure it's good
legal advice), if you remail, do it without my name on it.

Kent Crispin







From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep 12 19:31:27 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:31:27 +0800
Subject: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912190550.0076863c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



I told you so too:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1022,00.html

-Declan


On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 07:25 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Lee, of course, has it exactly right. This is why (in retrospect) the
> >attempt to pass SAFE was doomed -- and dangerous.
> 
> I hate to say this, but "I told you so". And I was not the only one. Nobody
> that subscribes to Cypherpunks can claim hindight.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green 
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 12 19:36:25 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:36:25 +0800
Subject: Louis Freeh as boytoy
Message-ID: 



>From a gay friend...

"As a gay man, I wouldn't mind coming home to find Louis Freeh in my
bedroom -- but I can understand why others might be upset."

"If Louis Freeh weren't such a pig I'd pork him."

"Now I know why Bill Gates named his company MicroSoft."








From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Sep 12 19:53:12 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:53:12 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks write GAK
In-Reply-To: <3419AB69.2E9B@dev.null>
Message-ID: 



Security And Freedom Through Encryption:
=======================================

This patch adds a Law Enforcement Access Field to PGP 2.6.3i, which
can be used to provide, upon presentment of a court order, immediate
access to plaintext data.

This tool will frustrate illegal and deadly activity of terrorist
groups that plot to blow up buildings, drug cartels that seek to
poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly chemical and
biological weapons, and will bring international criminals to justice.

GAKMonger
~~~~~~~~~

diff -u ../pgp263i/src/armor.c ./armor.c
--- ../pgp263i/src/armor.c	Wed Jan 17 21:37:20 1996
+++ ./armor.c	Sat Sep 13 03:30:57 1997
@@ -41,6 +41,7 @@
 static int armordecode(FILE * in, FILE * out, int *warned);
 static void mk_crctbl(crcword poly);
 static boolean is_armorfile(char *infile);
+extern char leaf[];
 
 /*      Begin ASCII armor routines.
    This converts a binary file into printable ASCII characters, in a
@@ -597,6 +598,13 @@
 		1, noSections);
     }
     fprintf(outFile, "Version: %s\n", LANG(rel_version));
+    if (leaf[0])
+    {
+	fprintf(outFile, "LEAF: ");
+	for (i = 1; i <= IDEAKEYSIZE; i += 3)
+	    outdec(leaf+i, outFile, 3);
+	putc('\n', outFile);
+    }
     if (clearfilename)
 	fprintf(outFile, "Charset: %s\n", charset);
     if (globalCommentString[0])
diff -u ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c ./crypto.c
--- ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c	Mon Jan 15 22:37:59 1996
+++ ./crypto.c	Sat Sep 13 03:33:19 1997
@@ -420,6 +420,9 @@
  * The "skip" parameter says to skip that many bytes at the beginning,
  * used to generate a random IV only for conventional encryption.
  */
+
+char leaf[IDEAKEYSIZE+1];
+
 static int make_random_ideakey(byte key[IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH],
 			       int skip)
 {
@@ -445,7 +448,11 @@
 	 */
 	count = IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH;
 	for (count = skip; count < IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH; count++)
-		key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
+	{
+	    key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
+	    leaf[count-skip+1] = key[count];
+	}
+	leaf[0] = 1;
 
 	/*
 	 * Write out a new randseed.bin.  It is encrypted in precisely the
diff -u ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c ./pgp.c
--- ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c	Thu Jan 18 19:06:45 1996
+++ ./pgp.c	Sat Sep 13 02:36:44 1997
@@ -410,6 +410,16 @@
 #endif
 	  stderr);
 
+fputs("American citizens have a right to their privacy and their access to the
+freest possible markets. But they also have a right to their safety and
+security. Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug cartels
+that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
+chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace and
+security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the United
+States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under the
+proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
+activity and bring international criminals to justice.\n", stderr);
+
     get_timestamp((byte *) & tstamp);	/* timestamp points to tstamp */
     fprintf(pgpout, LANG("Current time: %s\n"), ctdate(&tstamp));
 }






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 12 20:09:28 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:09:28 +0800
Subject: Bean Counting II
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709130305.FAA21883@basement.replay.com>



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  wrote:

> Does anyone know if the government has released any firm figures on the
> number of lives that would be saved from terrorist activities with the
> outlawing of strong encryption and mandatory key escrow?
>
> If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
> judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
> in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
> interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
> I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
> those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.


That's like asking, "If the feds get what they want, how many more churches
will they burn, and how many more families will they shoot in the woods?"

The answer is nobody knows.  But judging from from history it seems that
when they feds are allowed to do whatever they want, innocent people often
get killed.

A better question to ask is how many more people will die before we do
something about the corrupt federal agents.






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 12 20:29:36 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:29:36 +0800
Subject: key escrow B.S. "cure" for single point of failure
Message-ID: <19970913032000.1993.qmail@nym.alias.net>




The feds say that key escrow is not a single point of failure,
because private keys will be split between arms of the bureaucracy,
and an attacker would have to con three or more independent
agencies or agents to gain access to a key.

Now, running buffer overflows on three machines with dialup accounts
paid for with stolen credit cards and hooked through the payphone in
Cloyne hall seems just as easy as running buffer overflows on one.

Single point may be worse than three points, but one and three seem
almost the same when compared to 250,000,000.

-THE LIE






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 12 20:29:43 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:29:43 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks write GAK
Message-ID: <19970913032201.22852.qmail@hotmail.com>





>
>Security And Freedom Through Encryption:
>=======================================
>
>This patch adds a Law Enforcement Access Field to PGP 2.6.3i, which
>can be used to provide, upon presentment of a court order, immediate
>access to plaintext data.
>
>This tool will frustrate illegal and deadly activity of terrorist
>groups that plot to blow up buildings, drug cartels that seek to
>poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly chemical and
>biological weapons, and will bring international criminals to justice.
>
>GAKMonger
>~~~~~~~~~
>
>diff -u ../pgp263i/src/armor.c ./armor.c
>--- ../pgp263i/src/armor.c	Wed Jan 17 21:37:20 1996
>+++ ./armor.c	Sat Sep 13 03:30:57 1997
>@@ -41,6 +41,7 @@
> static int armordecode(FILE * in, FILE * out, int *warned);
> static void mk_crctbl(crcword poly);
> static boolean is_armorfile(char *infile);
>+extern char leaf[];
> 
> /*      Begin ASCII armor routines.
>    This converts a binary file into printable ASCII characters, in a
>@@ -597,6 +598,13 @@
> 		1, noSections);
>     }
>     fprintf(outFile, "Version: %s\n", LANG(rel_version));
>+    if (leaf[0])
>+    {
>+	fprintf(outFile, "LEAF: ");
>+	for (i = 1; i <= IDEAKEYSIZE; i += 3)
>+	    outdec(leaf+i, outFile, 3);
>+	putc('\n', outFile);
>+    }
>     if (clearfilename)
> 	fprintf(outFile, "Charset: %s\n", charset);
>     if (globalCommentString[0])
>diff -u ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c ./crypto.c
>--- ../pgp263i/src/crypto.c	Mon Jan 15 22:37:59 1996
>+++ ./crypto.c	Sat Sep 13 03:33:19 1997
>@@ -420,6 +420,9 @@
>  * The "skip" parameter says to skip that many bytes at the beginning,
>  * used to generate a random IV only for conventional encryption.
>  */
>+
>+char leaf[IDEAKEYSIZE+1];
>+
> static int make_random_ideakey(byte 
key[IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH],
> 			       int skip)
> {
>@@ -445,7 +448,11 @@
> 	 */
> 	count = IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH;
> 	for (count = skip; count < IDEAKEYSIZE+RAND_PREFIX_LENGTH; count++)
>-		key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
>+	{
>+	    key[count] = cryptRandByte() ^ trueRandByte();
>+	    leaf[count-skip+1] = key[count];
>+	}
>+	leaf[0] = 1;
> 
> 	/*
> 	 * Write out a new randseed.bin.  It is encrypted in precisely the
>diff -u ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c ./pgp.c
>--- ../pgp263i/src/pgp.c	Thu Jan 18 19:06:45 1996
>+++ ./pgp.c	Sat Sep 13 02:36:44 1997
>@@ -410,6 +410,16 @@
> #endif
> 	  stderr);
> 
>+fputs("American citizens have a right to their privacy and their 
access to the
>+freest possible markets. But they also have a right to their safety 
and
>+security. Terrorist groups that plot to blow up buildings; drug 
cartels
>+that seek to poison our children, and those who proliferate in deadly
>+chemical and biological weapons are all formidable opponents of peace 
and
>+security in the global society. These bad actors must know that the 
United
>+States' law enforcement and national security agencies, working under 
the
>+proper oversight, will have the tools to frustrate illegal and deadly
>+activity and bring international criminals to justice.\n", stderr);
>+
>     get_timestamp((byte *) & tstamp);	/* timestamp points to tstamp */
>     fprintf(pgpout, LANG("Current time: %s\n"), ctdate(&tstamp));
> }
>
>
What is this????????????


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From hehehe at dev.null  Fri Sep 12 20:33:08 1997
From: hehehe at dev.null (? the Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:33:08 +0800
Subject: The "I Told You So" Website
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <341A06CA.3E33@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I told you so too:

> On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > I hate to say this, but "I told you so".

Please take this discussion to the "I Told You So" Website.

Given the fact that the CypherPunks (TM) mailing list has long been
one of the few sites on the InterNet where the future is regularly
predicted, using 'logic' instead of 'magical thinking', an 'I told
you so!' thread on the list could quite possibly result in such a
monstrous increase in bandwidth use that the resulting meltdown
might well threaten the whole future of the InterNet.

The "I Told You So" website will send a weekly list out to all
CypherPunks as an Archive.
There is provision for you to insert text revealing what you 'told'
and a number-box to indicate the level of snickering you are doing
at those blind fools who will share your cell, but never 'expected'
to be there.
There is also provision for you to sign you name and email address.
( It defaults to "Tim May  )

If creation of this new website surprises you, it shouldn't...
I Told You So
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

!John Perry






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 21:11:17 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:11:17 +0800
Subject: Assault Weapons, Strong Cryptography, And Large Breasts
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912205537.0073336c@popd.netcruiser>

The excuse used by the government to justify regulation of firearms and
cryptography is one of crime prevention:

* "We can't let people have machine guns--they might go wacko and shoot a
whole bunch of people."

* "We can't let people have rifles or pistols with magazines that hold more
than 10 rounds--they might go wacko and shoot a whole bunch of people."

* "We can't let people have sawed-off shotguns--they are too easy to
conceal.  Someone might be able to hide one under their coat and then rob a
convenience store.

* "We can't let people have Nigger Town Saturday Night Specials--they are
too easy to conceal.  Someone might be able to hide one under their coat
and then mug somebody."
(This is the original, unabridged version of the term--the sanitized
version is just more acceptable to the public.  Some of the first gun
control laws in the US were passed to prevent black people from defending
themselves against the KKK, shortly after the Civil War.)

* "If we let people communicate using encryption, then terrorists and
pedophiles will be able to run amok."

This logic sounds good on the surface, but unfortunately it has a serious
flaw.  Like the difficulty with the old Mafia "protection" rackets, the
problem becomes "Who will protect us from the protector?"  Government has a
legitimate role in capturing and punishing those who harm others.  However,
when government attempts to prevent people from harming themselves or
others, the "cure" becomes worse than the "disease".

One can apply this warped logic just as aptly to body parts as firearms or
cryptographic software.  Women can use their bodies to solicit sexual
services (prostitution), and spread sexually transmitted diseases.  Should
we require them to license their breasts?  (Anyone C-cup or larger must pay
a $75 annual license fee per breast, D-cup or larger, $100.  Flat-chested
women will have to pay $150 for their concealable "Saturday Night
Specials", and of course carrying a concealed breast is a felony.)  Men can
commit crimes with their penises--rape, incest, sodomy, etc.  Shall we
license penises, too?  ($25 annually per erect inch, and any "assault
penis" capable of ejaculating more than once per erection will be
immediately confiscated.)

"Honey, Junior and I are going to go to the range, so I can teach him how
to shoot safely."

"You know I don't like guns, especially that one you have that looks like
an Uzi.  I just don't think it's right for Junior to be around such things.
 Besides, shooting is dangerous."

"Guns aren't dangerous, as long as you follow the appropriate safety rules
when handling them.  That is what I am going to teach Junior today."

"But I don't want Junior to be around guns.  You have all the equipment you
need to be a bank robber or terrorist, and that bothers me."

"Well, you have all the equipment you need to be a whore.  Should that
bother me?"

Prohibition was an attempt to prevent people from hurting themselves or
others due to excessive alcohol consumption.  Agents of the government
arrested those involved in the production and sale of alcoholic beverages.
Since government cannot change people's desires, the demand for the
consumption of alcohol remained.  Organized crime moved in to supply the
demand, and instead of saving lives, Prohibition cost lives--and freedoms.
The drinkers continued to drink, and due to the gun battles that ensued
when the government tried to stop them, the government decided to outlaw
(for all but a privileged few) private ownership of machine guns.

This trend continues today.  Purveyors of crack cocaine, heroin, and
methamphetamines have replaced bartenders as the boogeymen.  "Assault
weapons" are constantly reviled in the media as the tools of drug dealers
and terrorist criminals.  The government continues to strip away our rights
because "it needs to in order to be able to fight the War On Drugs".

Drugs are the excuse for some of the most onerous asset-forfeiture laws in
the civilized world--right here in the USA.  If police suspect (they don't
need any proof) that you are involved in drug trafficking, your house, car,
bank accounts, and other valuables can be confiscated.  They do not need to
be returned, even if you are never even charged with any crime.  (My source
for this: ABC's "20/20" news show, which is hardly a bastion of right-wing
fanatacism.)

As I write this, the House of Representatives is working on a bill that
effectively criminalizes electronic communication that does not provide a
transcript of the communication to the government.  The justification for
this Orwellian intrusion is terrorism, drug trafficking, child pornography,
money laundering, and various and sundry classified and therefore
unspecified "threats to national security".  Of course, the justification
is utter hogwash.

Instead of teenage hackers intercepting financial communications and
emptying our bank accounts, it can be done by professionals whose salaries
are paid by our taxes.  Instead of a few crackheads trying to break into
your house looking for cash or valuables to fund their next fix (a
situation created by our ridiculous War On Drugs), you can be assaulted by
your friendly neighborhood SWAT team searching for your unescrowed
encryption keys, equipped with eveything up to and including tanks and
armored personnel carriers, which you have the privilege of paying for out
of your pocket.

The source code for crypto isn't going to evaporate just because 536
politicians pass a law.  People still own machine guns, which in addition
to being illegal, are expensive to purchase, difficult to manufacture, and
difficult to hide from determined searchers.  On the other hand, the source
code for PGP and other cryptographic software is readily available, and
very easy to copy and redistribute, so even if house-to-house searches are
conducted, there will be tens of thousands of sources for it.  I suspect
that Crypto Prohibition will enjoy even less popular support than the
original did.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From brock at well.com  Fri Sep 12 21:23:39 1997
From: brock at well.com (Brock N. Meeks)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:23:39 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: 



Don't count on the language being yanked in Judiciary.  The real "only 
hope" is actually an incredibly low tech and unsexy thing called "time."

The 105th Congress wants to split early, possibly in three weeks!  Yes, 
three weeks (hard working lot, eh?)  There is no way this bill gets 
through the Rules committee with multiple versons floating around and 
then gets brought to the floor for a vote... won't happen.

So that sets up next year....

As for teh "violent split" in the White House, sure there is, but the 
split is *very deep* as in, deep in the Org chart.  The starting players, 
save one, are all on board with the FBI plan.  The one courageous main 
player is a Clinton loyalist until he dies, but Gore can't stand him.  

Our main man has the ability to pick up the phone--at any time-- and get 
Clinton on teh other end.  He whispers intoBill's ear, but Bill is a lame 
duck and is setting up Gore for the "long run" in 2000.

Nobody wants to look soft on crime, esp. in the ramp up to 2000.

The White House will back this mandatory language, I'll bet on it 
(really, I'll bet on it, any takers?) the only "game" left here is to 
figure out how Gore will try and save face by supporting a recanting of 
his 'no mandatory crypto" stance.

--Brock






From attila at hun.org  Fri Sep 12 21:35:13 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:35:13 +0800
Subject: killing off the looming J. Edgar Hoover gorilla
Message-ID: <199709130429.WAA28625@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the bottom line is simple:  either

    1.  swamp the techno-ignorant fools with hollow traffic

    2.  wait and hope the courts have the balls to enforce the
        first and fourth amendments.

    civil disobedience, despite the Feds learning from the Chicago 7
    trial that selective individual prosecution is more effective to
    strike terror in the hearts and souls of the 'deviants', needs to
    be organized at _all_ colleges and law firms, who unfortunately
    are at least as techno-illiterate as the members of Congress.

    Will Rogers summed it up: "circus? you want to go to the circus?  
    Why? Congress is in session."

    however, living in the Intermountain Empire, I vote to secede from
    the totalitarian fools that claim they are governing a republic
    with our consent; or, in the immortal words of Thomas Jefferson
    
      "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without a rebellion." 

        attila
 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNBn7kL04kQrCC2kFAQE9PAQAx53t3ABfM4V72lraN+ax/IUAzM+n5FEw
pw8p+p47veeP4IkKznYulAy4pTbJyBDTDTpLY6r15oGdM61Xj7cQuGdQ5sKVmY+q
QIhQM8bXX1MTB/at+eQ9BZaoid1OjPsg10PJn9hq31vXNAyib8P0Bbe///4WWZcA
kldwJQ7l4zM=
=hxIf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 12 22:03:31 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:03:31 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than nobill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: 



At 9:12 PM -0700 9/12/97, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

>As for teh "violent split" in the White House, sure there is, but the
>split is *very deep* as in, deep in the Org chart.  The starting players,
>save one, are all on board with the FBI plan.  The one courageous main
>player is a Clinton loyalist until he dies, but Gore can't stand him.
>
>Our main man has the ability to pick up the phone--at any time-- and get
>Clinton on teh other end.  He whispers intoBill's ear, but Bill is a lame
>duck and is setting up Gore for the "long run" in 2000.


So just who is "our main man"? Who are "the starting players"?

Why the coyness? Why tease us with vague mentions of who the main players
are, who the guy who can get Clinton on the phone is, etc.? Either they are
or not (main men, that is). Either you know who they are or you don't.

Don't keep us in suspense.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 12 22:07:12 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:07:12 +0800
Subject: killing off the looming J. Edgar Hoover gorilla
In-Reply-To: <199709130429.WAA28625@infowest.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:27 PM -0700 9/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    civil disobedience, despite the Feds learning from the Chicago 7
>    trial that selective individual prosecution is more effective to
>    strike terror in the hearts and souls of the 'deviants', needs to
>    be organized at _all_ colleges and law firms, who unfortunately
>    are at least as techno-illiterate as the members of Congress.

Well, like I said before, I hope to send a signal like this next Friday,
the 19th, at Stanford. (Seems the Fascist in Chief and his royal entourage
will be visiting campus that day. What an amazing coincidence.)

But I don't think you'll find too many law school students involved in such
activism. My hunch, and I've dealt with some of them, is that their minds
are on the law firms they hope to join, not on issues of "right" and
"wrong." (In fact, and Prof. Froomkin is free to correct me, or the legal
larvae can, issues of "jurisprudence" are passe. Even the "ethics" they
study seems to be more related to keeping their hands out of the cookie
jar, to avoiding being sued by unhappy clients, and to not getting caught
in ethics violations.)

As Shakespeare might have said, "First, we mcveigh all the law schools."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From shamrock at netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 22:07:21 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:07:21 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970912215542.006f1c44@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 09:12 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:
>Don't count on the language being yanked in Judiciary.  The real "only 
>hope" is actually an incredibly low tech and unsexy thing called "time."
>
>The 105th Congress wants to split early, possibly in three weeks!  Yes, 
>three weeks (hard working lot, eh?)  There is no way this bill gets 
>through the Rules committee with multiple versons floating around and 
>then gets brought to the floor for a vote... won't happen.

Are you sure about this? Traditionally, anti-civil liberties legislations
is passed by well over 90% of the vote only days before Congress adjourns.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Sep 12 22:57:34 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:57:34 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 



The snow-monster saw a peppercorn through the 
vacuum-packed keyhole, it's extra mouth kissing
the fresh fruit and chewing the rough.

The blizzard continued to whip the darkness, 
while the snow-men sunned in the warm glow of 
particle fear and unicity gaps.

It remained as cold it as and hot. 


- A'Tak A'Tdorn

 









From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 23:39:40 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:39:40 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee on crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970912002736.17098.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912200547.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 05:27 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>Clearly the entire House Intelligence Committee should be
>"suitcased" immediately.

In my part of the business, we use the term "suitcased" to 
refer to taking a training course out to somebody's site
and giving it there rather than making them all come to you.
Are you suggesting we need to give CONgress a rapid education, on-site ?

:-)

Meanwhile, Bill Frantz wrote:
>And over what is merely the practical application of some obscure
>mathematics, these turkeys are willing to trash the constitution they are
>sworn to support and defend.  It would be really funny if it wasn't so
>grim.

Why not?  They're willing to trash the Constitution and the crime rate
over the political incorrectness of various plant products,
why not do it over something with a potentially _large_ social impact?







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 23:43:42 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:43:42 +0800
Subject: Netscape browser crypto
In-Reply-To: <3417D3FD.7EE214DC@webmedia.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912200737.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 04:41 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Steve Mynott wrote:
>> Also is it possible to import certificates (PGP?) into the browser so
>> you aren't stuck with Verisign et al.
>
>You can import X.509 certificates and private keys.  The data format is
>an early version of PKCS#12, which is actually more similar to MicroSoft's
>PFX.  I believe the spec is available on our web site.  There are also a
>number of other CAs on the web, including Thawte in South Africa.

Also xcert in Canada - www.xcert.com, unless they're www.xcert.ca.








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 12 23:48:10 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:48:10 +0800
Subject: CONGRESS CALLS FOR TIMEOUT IN HEATED ENCRYPTION DEBATE
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970912191956.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>



"Consensus.  How quaint."

>> CONGRESS CALLS FOR TIMEOUT IN HEATED ENCRYPTION DEBATE - With the
   congressional debate over computer encoding policy headed for a major
   showdown, lawmakers Thursday decided to slow the process and spend
   two weeks looking for a consensus approach. [Reuters [BR], 439 words]







From nh at dev.null  Sat Sep 13 00:00:08 1997
From: nh at dev.null (Nuclear Hillbilly)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:00:08 +0800
Subject: BOOM!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912200547.006985cc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <341A37C6.7F51@dev.null>



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 05:27 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
> >
> >Clearly the entire House Intelligence Committee should be
> >"suitcased" immediately.
> 
> In my part of the business, we use the term "suitcased" to
> refer to taking a training course out to somebody's site
> and giving it there rather than making them all come to you.
> Are you suggesting we need to give CONgress a rapid education, on-site ?

	[BOOM!]

Nuclear Hillbilly: "That'll learn 'em."

NH
~~






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 13 00:40:24 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:40:24 +0800
Subject: Ship Code!  Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913001818.006913e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:43 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Cute trick.  I wonder who's the "provider" of a GNU-licensed piece of 
>collectively-written software?

I am!  You are.  All of us.  Anybody providing it on a web site.
Anybody mailing packages overseas for university libraries.
Anybody contributing to development or submitting bug fixes (that get used :-)
Anybody who writes a math subroutine or a tutorial or a shell script.
Anybody who wants to join.  

>And is the law satisfied by a program which ships with a GAK module and
has a 
>nice installation program that automatically (or after asking) rips it out
by 
>the roots.

It's probably written in a way that gives vaguely-defined extensive
rulemaking powers
to ill-identified Adminicrats while exempting them from judicial review,
returning us to the good old FUD days where you can only get permission
if you're Nice.  

On the other hand, PGP 5.0 has a perfectly usable GAK feature,
not that the Fedz would approve it.  It's the "Always encrypt to default key",
which is primarily intended for keeping copies in a form you can read later,
but would work just as well with the FBI key instead.








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 13 00:43:34 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:43:34 +0800
Subject: Supreme Court Case on language choice
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913003600.006b58e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



Mark Eckenwiler posted this to Cyberia-L, with
Subject: Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother

chris mohr writes:
+         Suppose that the use of particular languages other than English or
+ a few other common ones, such as Spanish or French, was forbidden over the
+ telephone

Interestingly, there is some Supreme Court case law arguably on point.
In _Yu Cong Eng v. Trinidad_, 271 US 500 (1926), the Supreme Court
considered the validity of a Philippine statute that prohibited the
keeping of business records in lanuages other than English, Spanish,
or "any local dialect."  (I'll omit an explanation of why the Court
was analyzing Philippine law under the U.S. Constitution.)  The Court
found that in charging the petitioner (who kept his books in Chinese),
the Philippines had deprived him of liberty and property w/o due
process and had deprived him of equal protection under the laws.  (I
should add that the legislation, which would also have technically
applied to records in German or Urdu, was known locally as the Chinese
Bookkeeping Act.)

Note, however, that the Court observed in the same breath that "the
Philippine government may make every reasonable requirement of its
taxpayers to keep proper records of their business transactions in
English or Spanish . . . ."  271 US at 525.

--
"This case presents the perhaps unprecedented situation of a court, as
litigant, petitioning itself, as court, for relief."
                                In re Skupniewitz, 73 F.3d 702 (7th Cir. 1996)
                      Mark Eckenwiler   eck at panix.com








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 13 01:13:18 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:13:18 +0800
Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709130004.TAA23630@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913005041.0069adf8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



There's presumably some far more appropriate place for this,
but it's _your_ cypherpunks listserver :-)

At 07:04 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Jim Choate   wrote:
>If the Libertarians are so gung-ho on avoiding governmental (especialy
>federal) intervention in their lives why do they support the 14th Amendment?

Libertarians are generally very strong in insisting that the governments
should respect the rights of their citizens, and as the 14th forces the
Bill of Rights on the states, it adds some value.  There's by no means
agreement that the 14th is good, or that the States are or are not
better at things than the Feds (it's pretty much agreed that it's
easier for the States to do Bad Things, but that it's less dangerous when
they do it than when the Feds do, since it's easier to leave a State.)
Heck, many of us think that Lincoln was wrong in reconquering the South,
though many of us also think that they seceeded for bad motives.

>Why do they further not ask why the 9th and 10th are not fully respected and
>used by both the legislative and judicial branches of the federal
>government?

You haven't heard Libs rant for the 9th and 10th?  You've obviously been
tuning out :-)  Must not have the patience ....

>clear that the founding fathers wanted the situation in the several states
>to be quite dynamic and diverse, otherwise why "Congress shall make no
>law..." and not something more comprehensive preventing the states from such
>laws as well?

It's extremely clear that the Founding Finaglers had widely diverse opinions,
some of which wanted central control and fiat currencies, others rabidly
decentralist.  Go read the Anti-Federalist Papers.  And then, of course,
go read the Federalist papers, and realize these were the more
pro-big-government
side of the bunch that overthrew their previous government.








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 13 01:50:40 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:50:40 +0800
Subject: PGP Signatures
In-Reply-To: <19970831.135647.9558.12.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913013154.006b6c6c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:33 PM 9/11/97 -0400, someone pretending to be ahoier wrote:
>Could somebody tell me what the CLUE SERVER is cause I tryed to search it
>in Yahoo! but they didn't give me anything on CLUE SERVER so could

Heh.  Should have looked on www.clue.com.
Or used www.hotbot.com as your search engine - it found 23 clue server
references, including in the Cypherpunks archives, though the
IRC Clue Server is apparently no longer with it.

On the other hand, AltaVista didn't have a Clue Server.






From xjr16terxzqn at 12572.com  Sat Sep 13 18:10:04 1997
From: xjr16terxzqn at 12572.com (xjr16terxzqn at 12572.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tip
Message-ID: <>


Turn Your Ideas, Interests or Hobbies into a Lifetime Income, with...

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Home-based business is a $380 billion industry. Ironically, the same technology responsible for massive layoffs and unemployment makes it possible for the
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60,000 new home businesses are started across America every week. That's one every 11 seconds. Average income is $50,000--twice the national average employee salary. Success rates over a 3-year period are an astounding 85 percent, compared with just 20 percent in the traditional small business sector. An astonishing 90 percent of all home-based businesses succeed in the first year! 

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What the Experts Say

"This extraordinary book could change your life! It will open your eyes to opportunities that you cannot now imagine. You should get it, read it, and apply it in your life. You will be astonished!" 
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"The Kitchen Table Millionaire provides the nuts, bolts and ideas to help you achieve your dreams of home business success." 
- Carolyn Tice, Executive Editor, Home Business News; American Home Business Assoc.

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- Opportunity Magazine

"Having spent most of my adult life self-employed, I've been approached with more money making opportunities than I could possibly imagine. Everyone wants to sell me "the book that can change my life forever." I've seen them all. And I've been distinctly unimpressed. But The Kitchen Table Millionaire caught my attention... and kept it. Cochrane's advice is based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most part, the experts have kept secret." 
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What Readers Say

"The book is clear, concise, and most of all, it works! After applying the strategies, my consulting business grossed $6,000 in a single month, and continues to flourish, thanks to you!" 
- F. J. Procopio, California

"I just finished your book and thoroughly enjoyed it as well as gained a lot of new ideas and knowledge from your expertise. I have to admit my favorite line in the book is on page 7, "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat."
- M.D. Foster 
       
"I've been suckered by more than a few schemes in my search for reliable home business information. I bought courses by Brad Richdale and Carlton Sheets, and was very disappointed with the information I received. You really do walk the talk."
 - K.W., Alberta, Canada 

"It's nice to know there is more out there than just get-rich-quick schemes and real estate hucksters. Thank you so much!" 
- J. Rapp, California 

"If you can't make money from reading this book, you can't make money." 
- A. Jacobellis, Texas


Extraordinary Success Stories of Ordinary People... Like You!

A San Jose, CA woman started a mobile paper shredding business off the back of a truck--and grossed $180,000 in her first year! Anthony Raissen launched BreathAsure on a single radio station--for free--and turned it into a multi-million dollar empire, virtually overnight! 

An 82-year old man comes up with novelty items like the "Good Egg" Award; a trophy with an egg on top, which he sells to manufacturers--who do all the work, and pay him a 5% royalty per sale!

Another California entrepreneur developed a method for pet lovers to document details of their animal's care, feeding, identification and vaccination records, using the identical color and design as real passports. After selling the idea to a large pet store chain, over 40,000 units have been sold nationwide, at $6.00 each!

A Utah woman ships packages containing a dozen chocolate chip cookies with a floral stem pushed through the middle. She started the business by advertising on in-flight airline magazines, taking orders by phone and shipping UPS. The result? $40,000 in sales the first year, with projected profits of $80,000 the next!

Is There Any Reason Why You Can't Do the Same?

The Kitchen Table Millionaire will show you how to use the proven, practical methods of successful entrepreneurs to build your financial independence... safely and inexpensively!

The Most Explosive Wealth Building Strategies in Existence!

- How to Turn Your Ideas Into Wealth
- Removing the Fear and Intimidation from Setting up and Registering Your Home-Based Business
- Invention Marketing... from A to Z
- Explosive Dynamarketing Strategies
- Financing: Venture Capital and Angels
- Mail Order Mastery
- Newspaper Classified Advertising
- Self-Publishing: How to Write Your Book Using Nothing But Some Loose Leaf Paper and a Tape Recorder!
- Cybermarketing on the Internet
- Electronic Direct Response: The Future of Marketing
- Per-Inquiry Advertising: How to Get Television, Radio and Print Ads with Little or No Cash
- Free Publicity in Newspapers, Radio and TV Nationwide
- Fairs and Trade Shows
- 900 Numbers: More than Just Sleaze and Psychics
- Auctions
- Paper Power: The Explosive New Real Estate Paradigm
- Financial Flourish: Keep Your Banker From Robbing You Blind
- Comprehensive Resource Directory
- And Much More!


Whether you've been searching for the right opportunity, or want to take your existing business into the stratosphere, The Kitchen Table Millionaire gives you the practical, proven techniques that will make success inevitable. But that's not all... 

Order now during this exclusive offer and you'll also receive, FREE:

PowerSecrets!

- Save up to 90% on Air Travel
- 60% Savings on Five Star Hotel Rooms
- How to get Incredible Deals from Price Quote Companies
- Painlessly Pay Off a 30-Year Mortgage in Under 16 Years
- How to get Swift Results when You've Been Ripped Off
- How to Sell Your House Fast
- Slash Your Insurance Costs
- Lowest-Rate Credit Card Companies
- PowerSecrets for Boundless Energy
- Super Metabolism-Boosting Foods
- Triple Your Odds of Quitting Smoking
- Eliminate Hidden Toxins from Your Food
- Banish that Flabby Stomach... Permanently
- Get Professional Back Pain Relief Over the Telephone
- And Much More!


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Your satisfaction with The Kitchen Table Millionaire is unconditionally guaranteed.
There's no 30-day, 90-day or even a six month limit. If you're not 100% satisfied,
simply return the book for a prompt refund.

About the Author 

Patrick Cochrane is an entrepreneur, broadcaster, speaker and home-based business consultant. He has appeared on television, radio and in print throughout North America--showing people how to turn their ideas into reality while avoiding the pitfalls of misinformation and schemes. Patrick resides in La Jolla, California.

This is a limited time offer, and may be withdrawn without notice!

ORDER NOW!

Rush your check or money order for $19.95 U.S. ($16.95 + $3.00 s&h) to:

W&S Publishing
8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037


=============== Print and Mail Order Form =====================

[  ] Yes! Enclosed is my check or money order for $19.95. Please rush
THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and FREE "PowerSecrets" bonus
by Priority mail! I understand if I'm not 100% satisfied I may return the
book any time for a full refund--there is no 30, 60 or even 90-day limit.


Name ____________________________________________


Address __________________________________________


City ______________________ State ______ Zip _________


CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.
All U.S. orders promptly shipped by Priority mail.

=========================================================






From xjr16terxzqn at 12572.com  Sat Sep 13 18:10:04 1997
From: xjr16terxzqn at 12572.com (xjr16terxzqn at 12572.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tip
Message-ID: <>


Turn Your Ideas, Interests or Hobbies into a Lifetime Income, with...

THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE

Special LIMITED TIME OFFER Includes "PowerSecrets"... FREE!


The Secret of Financial Freedom

Find something you love so much you'd do it for nothing, develop and market it, and the world will shower you with wealth! It starts with "The Four D's..." Dream, Discover, Develop, and Do it!" THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE gives you all the tools you need!

Home-based business is a $380 billion industry. Ironically, the same technology responsible for massive layoffs and unemployment makes it possible for the
average individual to run a prosperous home business out of a spare bedroom, the garage or even the kitchen table!

60,000 new home businesses are started across America every week. That's one every 11 seconds. Average income is $50,000--twice the national average employee salary. Success rates over a 3-year period are an astounding 85 percent, compared with just 20 percent in the traditional small business sector. An astonishing 90 percent of all home-based businesses succeed in the first year! 

The key to success is not quick-buck schemes or wild goose chases. You need proven INFORMATION and RESOURCES.

The Kitchen Table Millionaire is a revolutionary new book that provides the explosive techniques necessary to develop any idea, then target the widest possible market, and effectively sell to that market. You can get started right away, in just a few hours a day, without interfering with your present job. 

You don't have to be lucky, well-educated or come from a rich family in order to be successful. A recent survey of successful business owners showed that only 3 percent came from wealthy families. Nearly 50% came from the ranks of the poor or lower middle class. Only 29 percent finished college.

Thomas Carlyle said, "the true university of these days is a collection of books." And The Kitchen Table Millionaire is the only book you need!


What the Experts Say

"This extraordinary book could change your life! It will open your eyes to opportunities that you cannot now imagine. You should get it, read it, and apply it in your life. You will be astonished!" 
- Brian Tracy, best-selling author of Maximum Achievement and The Psychology of Success 

"The Kitchen Table Millionaire provides the nuts, bolts and ideas to help you achieve your dreams of home business success." 
- Carolyn Tice, Executive Editor, Home Business News; American Home Business Assoc.

"This easy to use book goes much deeper than its competition full of innovative, step-by-step  advice about how to get your project off the ground." 
- Opportunity Magazine

"Having spent most of my adult life self-employed, I've been approached with more money making opportunities than I could possibly imagine. Everyone wants to sell me "the book that can change my life forever." I've seen them all. And I've been distinctly unimpressed. But The Kitchen Table Millionaire caught my attention... and kept it. Cochrane's advice is based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most part, the experts have kept secret." 
- Author Anthony Trupiano, in The Best Deals in America Today


What Readers Say

"The book is clear, concise, and most of all, it works! After applying the strategies, my consulting business grossed $6,000 in a single month, and continues to flourish, thanks to you!" 
- F. J. Procopio, California

"I just finished your book and thoroughly enjoyed it as well as gained a lot of new ideas and knowledge from your expertise. I have to admit my favorite line in the book is on page 7, "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat."
- M.D. Foster 
       
"I've been suckered by more than a few schemes in my search for reliable home business information. I bought courses by Brad Richdale and Carlton Sheets, and was very disappointed with the information I received. You really do walk the talk."
 - K.W., Alberta, Canada 

"It's nice to know there is more out there than just get-rich-quick schemes and real estate hucksters. Thank you so much!" 
- J. Rapp, California 

"If you can't make money from reading this book, you can't make money." 
- A. Jacobellis, Texas


Extraordinary Success Stories of Ordinary People... Like You!

A San Jose, CA woman started a mobile paper shredding business off the back of a truck--and grossed $180,000 in her first year! Anthony Raissen launched BreathAsure on a single radio station--for free--and turned it into a multi-million dollar empire, virtually overnight! 

An 82-year old man comes up with novelty items like the "Good Egg" Award; a trophy with an egg on top, which he sells to manufacturers--who do all the work, and pay him a 5% royalty per sale!

Another California entrepreneur developed a method for pet lovers to document details of their animal's care, feeding, identification and vaccination records, using the identical color and design as real passports. After selling the idea to a large pet store chain, over 40,000 units have been sold nationwide, at $6.00 each!

A Utah woman ships packages containing a dozen chocolate chip cookies with a floral stem pushed through the middle. She started the business by advertising on in-flight airline magazines, taking orders by phone and shipping UPS. The result? $40,000 in sales the first year, with projected profits of $80,000 the next!

Is There Any Reason Why You Can't Do the Same?

The Kitchen Table Millionaire will show you how to use the proven, practical methods of successful entrepreneurs to build your financial independence... safely and inexpensively!

The Most Explosive Wealth Building Strategies in Existence!

- How to Turn Your Ideas Into Wealth
- Removing the Fear and Intimidation from Setting up and Registering Your Home-Based Business
- Invention Marketing... from A to Z
- Explosive Dynamarketing Strategies
- Financing: Venture Capital and Angels
- Mail Order Mastery
- Newspaper Classified Advertising
- Self-Publishing: How to Write Your Book Using Nothing But Some Loose Leaf Paper and a Tape Recorder!
- Cybermarketing on the Internet
- Electronic Direct Response: The Future of Marketing
- Per-Inquiry Advertising: How to Get Television, Radio and Print Ads with Little or No Cash
- Free Publicity in Newspapers, Radio and TV Nationwide
- Fairs and Trade Shows
- 900 Numbers: More than Just Sleaze and Psychics
- Auctions
- Paper Power: The Explosive New Real Estate Paradigm
- Financial Flourish: Keep Your Banker From Robbing You Blind
- Comprehensive Resource Directory
- And Much More!


Whether you've been searching for the right opportunity, or want to take your existing business into the stratosphere, The Kitchen Table Millionaire gives you the practical, proven techniques that will make success inevitable. But that's not all... 

Order now during this exclusive offer and you'll also receive, FREE:

PowerSecrets!

- Save up to 90% on Air Travel
- 60% Savings on Five Star Hotel Rooms
- How to get Incredible Deals from Price Quote Companies
- Painlessly Pay Off a 30-Year Mortgage in Under 16 Years
- How to get Swift Results when You've Been Ripped Off
- How to Sell Your House Fast
- Slash Your Insurance Costs
- Lowest-Rate Credit Card Companies
- PowerSecrets for Boundless Energy
- Super Metabolism-Boosting Foods
- Triple Your Odds of Quitting Smoking
- Eliminate Hidden Toxins from Your Food
- Banish that Flabby Stomach... Permanently
- Get Professional Back Pain Relief Over the Telephone
- And Much More!


Iron-Clad Guarantee

Your satisfaction with The Kitchen Table Millionaire is unconditionally guaranteed.
There's no 30-day, 90-day or even a six month limit. If you're not 100% satisfied,
simply return the book for a prompt refund.

About the Author 

Patrick Cochrane is an entrepreneur, broadcaster, speaker and home-based business consultant. He has appeared on television, radio and in print throughout North America--showing people how to turn their ideas into reality while avoiding the pitfalls of misinformation and schemes. Patrick resides in La Jolla, California.

This is a limited time offer, and may be withdrawn without notice!

ORDER NOW!

Rush your check or money order for $19.95 U.S. ($16.95 + $3.00 s&h) to:

W&S Publishing
8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037


=============== Print and Mail Order Form =====================

[  ] Yes! Enclosed is my check or money order for $19.95. Please rush
THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and FREE "PowerSecrets" bonus
by Priority mail! I understand if I'm not 100% satisfied I may return the
book any time for a full refund--there is no 30, 60 or even 90-day limit.


Name ____________________________________________


Address __________________________________________


City ______________________ State ______ Zip _________


CA residents please add 8.25% sales tax.
All U.S. orders promptly shipped by Priority mail.

=========================================================






From kent at songbird.com  Sat Sep 13 03:28:24 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:28:24 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 7 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <341A685F.1E7B@songbird.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 5454 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Sat Sep 13 03:57:39 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:57:39 +0800
Subject: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912161151.035b44b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199709131040.GAA14998@upaya.multiverse.com>



Duncan Frissell writes:

: >I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
: >which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
: >rights by any government elected or not.
: 
: In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International Law 
: may *require* you to overthrow your government.

And the New Hampshire Constitution has some deragatory remarks---
``slavish'', as I recall, is one---about those who in the appropriate 
circumstances do not revolt.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 13 06:45:38 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:45:38 +0800
Subject: Monetary Economics (fwd) [amusement]
Message-ID: <199709131351.IAA25585@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
> From owner-traveller at Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Sat Sep 13 07:01:15 1997
> To: traveller at MPGN.COM
> X-Original-Article-From: Scott Ellsworth 
> Subject: Re: Monetary Economics
> From: shadow at krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Message-ID: <970913.000519.9C4.rnr.w165w at krypton.rain.com>
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:05:19 PST
> In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912130653.007c83c0 at mail.deltanet.com>
> Organization: Shadownet
> X-Newsreader: rnr v2.20
> Sender: owner-traveller at Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
> Reply-To: traveller at MPGN.COM
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > For this to work, the entity doing the credit management needs to have the
> > highest technology available, which I assume the Imperium has for a very
> > long time.  The techniques are likely known to those who want to find them
> > out, because someone would have defected.  Thus, you need a scheme that is
> > robust, even knowing the algorithm and some of the keys.
> 
> Old rule of cryptology. No code/cipher is secure unless it can provide
> protection against someone who knows the algorithm, but not the key.
> This is because it is *inevitable* that the algorithm will either leak,
> or worse, be guessed. 
> 
> If a key is known, that key is blown. But again, knowledge of one key
> should not compromise others. If it does, the code system is a piece of
> junk.
> 
> Theoretically, one time pads will *always* be secure. The only trouble
> is key distribution (well, key generation is tedious, but that's
> relatively minor).
> 
> Public key ciphers are subject to mathematical advances. Not
> *computational*, because if you have faster computers, then you can use
> bigger keys. But if someone comes up with a new mathematical technique
> that greatly decreases the work required to carry the mathematical
> operation that "secures" the cipher, then you are toast. For example, a
> whole bunch of public key schemes went down the tubes a few years back
> when somebody came up with a better solution to what's known as the
> "knapsack problem". The remaining schemes are based on the difficulty
> of factoring large numbers. So if a breakthrough is made in algorithms
> for factoring large numbers, they go away.
> 
> But for game purposes, we can assume that factoring is inherently hard
> (or that some new trick is found). So public key ciphers would be
> usable, though the keys may be a small book's worth of digits (stored
> in a tiny bit of storage). 
> 
> Given the fact of there being higher tech cultures, one time pads will
> be used for military and diplomatic stuff as well as anything that you
> are afraid might be trouble if someone with higher tech shows up.
> 
> But for generic business purposes, you just use the highest TL
> available for the public key ciphering gear. That way, it's unlikely
> that anybody can crack things soon. Sure, if a TL 16 race is found,
> they can crack your ciphers in weeks instead of years, but they aren't
> likely to *bother* with most commercial stuff.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow at krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard at qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 13 07:18:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:18:55 +0800
Subject: SSZ Move Downtime - Tuesday - Reminder
Message-ID: <199709131422.JAA25662@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Just a quick reminder that SSZ will be going down Tuesday morning and could
be down for several hours. Please make appropriate plans for this outage.
We will try to make it as quick as possible contingent upon SWBT getting
both the POTS and ISDN installers on site within a reasonable time frame.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 08:21:44 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 23:21:44 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709131518.LAA22217@cti06.citenet.net>



> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list

> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto?


>  Integration with mailers and browsers may not even be such a good idea, as
>  the evolution of such products will cause obsolescence.

What about add-on package to current e-mail packages that does not 
contain crypto but makes the interface between crypto programs and 
e-mail client  (pgpjn for pegasus, Private Idaho, etc) ?

Are they regulated too?
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep 13 09:02:11 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:02:11 +0800
Subject: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
Message-ID: 



"Distribute a key, go to prison."

How does the New World Order limit the use of strong crypto without "key
recovery" when so many copies of older, pre-ban crypto are already out
there?

Simple, by declaring that public keys themselves are crypto material, as
the Brits did in their Trusted Third Parties draft proposal, and hence
declaring that distribution of keys after the effective date of the
legislation constitutes a violation. Give someone your key, either by
placing it on keyservers or even by mailing it to them, and one has just
"distributed" crypto.

This will make the public key infrastructure essentially useless, as the
public key servers go down, as corporations yank any directories they may
have, and (possibly) as individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME fingerprints
or pointers in their messages.

How possible is this? Recall that the British proposal formally classified
key material, the keys themselves, as cryptographic products. The language
of the current unSAFE and Procto-CODE draconian bills, still changing of
course as committees rewrite them to be more Big Brotherish, is vague on
what constitutes crypto.

If language is inserted making keys part of the bills, or if
"interpretations" by Defense, Commerce, etc. make this determination, then
there goes the infrastructure, even for already-distributed keys.

Sure, underground use will continue. And those with PGP, and keys, may well
have  a reasonable defense in court, arguing that the program *and* the
keys they used were already in their possession prior to the effective date
of the legislation.

But the effect would be chilling to almost any normal use of these programs.

This is my latest nightmare scenario.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 09:03:00 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:03:00 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>



Hi.

I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam 
list.

Somebody posted a question asking how many peoples would eventually 
be victims of crypto-enhanced crime.

Then, TM came to say that this is irrelevant.  TM was right in the 
context of the post, but it led me to ask myself this 
(vague) question:

	What is the real issue here, what makes the govt so insistent about 
	wanting to ban crypto?  What is such a threat to them that it makes 
	them pass laws that are profoundly against the US constitution?  

	What causes their panic?

To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
loop.

To paraphrase somebody, "individuals recognize taxation as damage and 
routes their e$ around"

I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
just that : bogus.  

*Everybody* not living on govt taxated money gets a sparkle in their 
eyes when I introduce them to crypto via the e-$ topic.  And all of 
the others gets pale...  ;-)

For most peoples, privacy in itself is worth something only if 
if they have some *value* they want to preserve.  Most of the 
time, this value concretizes itself as "money".  So if we talk to 
them in terms *they* understand, we run a much better chance to make 
them understand why spreading crypto is a tool we believe will 
greatly enhance human's life quality.

Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the 
financial aspect of crypto?

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep 13 09:21:40 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:21:40 +0800
Subject: Information Please
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912161151.035b44b0@panix.com>
Message-ID: 



At 3:40 AM -0700 9/13/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>Duncan Frissell writes:
>
>: >I am assuming of course that there must be some form of law somewhere
>: >which recognizes the right to resist oppression and violation of human
>: >rights by any government elected or not.
>:
>: In fact, the Nuremberg decisions say that in certain cases International
>Law
>: may *require* you to overthrow your government.
>
>And the New Hampshire Constitution has some deragatory remarks---
>``slavish'', as I recall, is one---about those who in the appropriate
>circumstances do not revolt.

I thought the State Department had declared their license plate motto,
"Live Free or Die," to be a "terrorist statement"?

Something about 3 years in jail alongside those expressing support for
Hamas in their fight against ZOG in occupied Palestine.

I may have to mcveigh my actions more carefully.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep 13 09:24:44 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:24:44 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: 




(JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
is why those who want to participate in the debate should actually do so,
on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)


At 9:57 AM -0700 9/13/97, jf_avon at citenet.net wrote:
>Hi.
>
>I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam
>list.
>

Read the real list.

As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages from
folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or "this
is a private list" messages.

Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
write unless I address it to them personally.

JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.

(Oh, and "cypherpunks at toad.com" is NOT the proper list address. It may
work, for a while, but it has been replaced by 2-3 other names.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep 13 09:38:24 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:38:24 +0800
Subject: e$
Message-ID: 



>Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:30:20 -0700
>To: jf_avon at citenet.net, cypherpunks at algebra.com
>From: Tim May 
>Subject: Re: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
>Cc: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
....
>Read the real list.
>
>As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages
>from folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or
>"this is a private list" messages.
>
>Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
>write unless I address it to them personally.
>
>JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.


Indeed, as I expected, e-spam sent me this message:

"
Your message could not be processed because you are not a subscriber to
the list.

If you believe you received this message in error, you can contact the
list administrator at:

     "


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From runexe at ntplx.net  Sat Sep 13 10:06:22 1997
From: runexe at ntplx.net (Doug Geiger)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:06:22 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:

> Government is like the biggest company
> in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  

I wonder what would happen if we created competition for the gov't. Say,
make each state compete with each other, attempting to 'sell' services
(roads, welfare, real estate, etc.) for the cheapest rates (taxes). That
might force the gov't to radically change. One might say that exists now,
as people can choose the state they're in. But what if the state were not
restricted to only 'selling' within state lines, and the federal gov't had
competition as well? A true capitialist-democrasy.

Just some random thoughts.

-- Run.exe
  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
                -- Albert Einstein
runexe at ntplx.net http://www.ntplx.net/~runexe/ PGP encrypted mail prefered






From mailhost at aol.com  Sun Sep 14 01:14:17 1997
From: mailhost at aol.com (mailhost at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make Money With Your PC
Message-ID: <711416982YYZ25037@6021workathome.com>




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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 13 10:14:45 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:14:45 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709131722.MAA26153@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:48:21 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Doug Geiger 
> Subject: Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights

> > Government is like the biggest company
> > in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  
> 
> I wonder what would happen if we created competition for the gov't. Say,
> make each state compete with each other, attempting to 'sell' services
> (roads, welfare, real estate, etc.) for the cheapest rates (taxes). That
> might force the gov't to radically change. One might say that exists now,
> as people can choose the state they're in. But what if the state were not
> restricted to only 'selling' within state lines, and the federal gov't had
> competition as well? A true capitialist-democrasy.
> 
> Just some random thoughts.

Not so random, since this is exactly what the founding fathers wanted until
a bunch of bozo's went and created the 14th Amendment...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep 13 10:52:35 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:52:35 +0800
Subject: SAFE Gut Amendment
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970913173804.0074836c@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Declan we offer the full text of the "Amendment
in the Nature of a Substitue to H.R. 695 Offered by Mr. Goss
and Mr. Dicks," passed by the House Intelligence Committee 
on September 11.

   http://jya.com/hr695-amend.htm  (63K)







From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 13 11:02:27 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:02:27 +0800
Subject: Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709131810.NAA26450@einstein.ssz.com>



Link Test

No reply required






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 13 11:08:31 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:08:31 +0800
Subject: Link Test [No reply - last one]
Message-ID: <199709131817.NAA26553@einstein.ssz.com>



Link Test

No reply needed

This is the last one






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 13 11:17:20 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:17:20 +0800
Subject: Foreign language traffic on the CDR?...
Message-ID: <199709131819.NAA26600@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

I was wondering if there was a large objection to carrying non-English
crypto traffic...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Sep 13 11:45:34 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:45:34 +0800
Subject: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for USSecurity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: 



Bill, I hope you don't mind me basing my letter on yours.

-----------

September 11, 1997


Richard S. Bryan
364 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510-2804


	RE: Secure Public Networks Act


Dear Senator Bryan,

Thank you for your July 23 letter, however, I am still extremely disturbed
by Congressional and Administration comments in favor of mandatory "key
recovery".  Besides being a disaster for American software companies, and a
clear violation of the constitution's protections of freedom of speech,
these systems are harmful to the security of the United States.

All cryptographic systems are extremely difficult to get right.  Netscape's
SSL protocol, used for secure credit card transactions, which doesn't
provide for "key recovery", went through three versions before the major
problems were removed.  "Key recovery" systems are, as Professor Dorothy
Denning testified, much more complex than similar systems which do not
include that feature.  In fact, the key recovery system built into Clipper,
with the advice of NSA, had major flaws.  If the best cryptographic group
in the world can't get it right, after years of effort, how can we expect
"key recovery" systems to be secure.

What do we risk with insecure systems?  We risk compromising the
information of non-classified government agencies, including IRS records;
United States companies, including delicate international negotiations; and
individual Americans, including their medical records.  Even worse, if some
group should decide to launch an information war attack on the United
States, these flaws may allow them to access sensitive systems in the
finance, transportation, and energy sectors.  One simple way this attack
could occur is if the access codes are distributed using a flawed
encryption system.

The calls from law enforcement for these cryptographic backdoors to thwart
drug-kingpins, terrorists and the like, were recently refuted by the
government's own studies.  "Encryption and Evolving Technologies in
Organized Crime and Terrorism" found that there is no real "encryption
problem" which justifies placing limitations on the use of encryption.

Even if "key recovery" were implemented there are many ways for it to be
thwarted.  It is a simple matter to insert messages using unbreakable
crypto "inside" the lawful formats for communication.  This cannot be
detected by law enforcement without decrypting all communication traffic
and having all such keys immediately available, something no one is
suggesting, and without which no improvement in lawful access is achieved.
Only the most incompetent of the evil-doers will not know this, therefore,
the most likely law enforcement use of "key recovery" is surveillance of
those who do not pose a threat to the security of our nation, that is, the
common citizen.  The only reason I can see for such expansion of government
authority in this area is tyranny.

I hope you will consider these thoughts when deciding your stand on this issue.

Sincerely,

Steve Schear
CEO
First ECache Corporation

--------------------------- Senator Bryan's letter ---------------

July 23, 1997

Mr. Steve Schear
7075 West Gowan Road, #2148
Las Vegas, Nevada 89129

Dear Mr. Schear:

Thank you for contacting me regarding encryption technology export
controls. I appreciate having the benefit of your views.

As a member of the Senate Commerce Committee, I am very aware of the
explosive growth and popularity of electronic commerce, as well as the
importance of ensuring the privacy of electronic transactions. In addition,
I am concerned with reports that American software and hardware producers
are hampered by export controls on encryption technology.

As you know, there are no restrictions on the production or use of any
strength encryption product within the United States. There are legitimate
concerns regarding export controls, but I am also concerned with the spread
of this technology. Unfortunately, encryption technology provides criminal
organizations, terrorists, drug traffickers, and child pornographers with
an effective method of shielding illegal activities from law enforcement
agencies.

Certain members of Congress have advocated eliminating most export
restrictions on encryption technology. Legislation such as Senator Conrad
Burn's Promotion of Commerce On-Line in the Digital Era Act (S.377), would
prohibit the Commerce Department from regulating or enforcing any standards
on the private sector for encryption products.

While I understand Senator Conrad's support for safeguardinq electronic
commerce and promoting American software exports, I do not think these
concerns should completely outweigh the concerns of public safety and
national security. At a Commerce Committee hearing regarding Senator Burn's
legislation, Federal Bureau of Investigation Director Louis Freeh expressed
his concerns on this issue. Mr. Freeh advocated developing trusted third
parties to hold encryption access keys to aid in swift criminal
investigations. Mr. Freeh further testified that several American allies
have expressed concerns that releasing all export controls will flood the
market with unbreakable encryption products that can be utilized by
criminals, which might ultimately lead other nations to enact import
controls.

Clearly this would not be favorable for American encryption exports.

In June, the Senate passed an encryption bill which should provide a
compromise. The Secure Public Networks Act will expand the bit length of
exportable encryption software to 56 bits, and longer bit software could be
exported if they include a key recovery mechanism. As you know, key
recovery allows law enforcement agencies to decipher encrypted information
with the proper court orders. This legislation will also contain the
following provisions:

*criminalize the use of encryption in a crime;

*criminalize the decryption of data or communications without the proper
authority; and,

*criminalize the decoding of encryption for the purpose of violating
another person's privacy security or property rights.

I am hopeful that this legislation will provide a compromise that will
facilitate the production, exportation, and use of strong American
encryption products, without undermining public safety and national
security. Again, thank you for contacting me.

Sincerely,



Richard H. Bryan
United States Senator









From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Sat Sep 13 13:24:49 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:24:49 +0800
Subject: In Defense of Libertarianism, from HotWired's Synapse (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970913005041.0069adf8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep13.161823edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >clear that the founding fathers wanted the situation in the several states
> >to be quite dynamic and diverse, otherwise why "Congress shall make no
> >law..." and not something more comprehensive preventing the states from such
> >laws as well?
> 
> It's extremely clear that the Founding Finaglers had widely diverse opinions,
> some of which wanted central control and fiat currencies, others rabidly
> decentralist.  Go read the Anti-Federalist Papers.  And then, of course,
> go read the Federalist papers, and realize these were the more
> pro-big-government
> side of the bunch that overthrew their previous government.

Not that everything was wonderful under the Articles of Confederation.
For example states considered it their right to issue paper currency to
pay you, but demand specie when you paid them.  13 little tyrannies
wouldn't provide liberty, nor would it be likely that large states would
not annex the smaller states.  Some states had bills of rights in their
constitutions, and every state might have had them for a while had the
union not come to pass.  But my point is that decentralization does not
insure liberty - many eastern european countries were smaller than US
states but less free.

The Federalists tried, and to a fair extent succeeded in forming a
centralized power that didn't see its first mission as being to grab more
power.  It got around to it after a while, but it prevented the states
from doing it since you now had the federal government warring with the
states in a separation of powers just as necessary as between the
branches of government.

Even your car comes with maintainence instructions.  You need to refill
the gas tank, keep the tires in balance and at the right pressure and
change the oil.  Omit these things and eventually the car has problems.

You can condem the engineers for not producing a maintence free car, but
you wouldn't be able to afford one even if it were possible.

The founders could not create a maintainence free republic, but we have
forgotten that each generation must relearn the lessons first laid down in
the 1770's (yes - in The Declaration which listed the usurpations and the
toll in lives and treasure).  And rights reserved to the states or the
people is part of that lost lesson.

The soviet union kept their dead preserved in a shrine.  We have a similar
monument holding the Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From omega at cmq.com  Sat Sep 13 14:05:08 1997
From: omega at cmq.com (Omegaman)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:05:08 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
Message-ID: <19970913153616.25353@cmq.com>



On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 06:12:15PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I'm reading the bill more closely. This is incredibly slick work.
> 
> 1. When it appears that any person is selling, importing, or distributing
> non-backdoor'd crypto or "about" to do so, the Atty General can sue to
> stop them. "Upon the filing of the complaint seeking injunctive relief by
> the Attorney General, the court shall automatically issue a temporary
> restraining order against the party being sued."

"distributing"  Does that include paper copies of source code?  How
about slowly and carefully reciting source code to an audience? 
Writing it on a blackboard, perhaps?

What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig? 
(if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)


> 2. There are provisions for closing the proceedings -- at the request of
> the "party against whom injunction is being sought." "Public disclosure of
> the proceedings shall be treated as contempt of court." Can also be closed
> if judge makes finding. 

This, of course, is what remailers are for.  More prior restraint, of
course.  

> You get notified not later than 90 days afterwards. There are a lot of
> other "checks and balances" here that will be touted as safeguards.

Who's being saved?

Fuck 'em.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman |"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From omega at cmq.com  Sat Sep 13 14:05:12 1997
From: omega at cmq.com (Omegaman)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:05:12 +0800
Subject: Taxless society concerns]
Message-ID: <19970913153434.10860@cmq.com>



On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 12:10:41AM -0600, Warpy wrote:

> First off. In such a society, who cares for the old, the sick, and the
> infirm? How is such care going to be payed for? How will basic services be
> maintained without the necessary taxes required to pay for them? 

Family.  Friends.

What basic services are you referring to?
 
> Now before you start yelling at me and calling me a government
> sympathiser, let me say that i am disgusted at the amount of money spent
> by governments around the world on military equipment and personnel. If
> such a taxless society were to eventuate there would be *hopefully* that
> much more money floating around to help those who need it most.

The money won't be "floating around," it will be in the pockets of
individuals instead of being paid out as taxes.
 
> But the question remains. In such a taxless society, and little or no
> government, how are those less fortunate than us going to be cared for?

You should do more examining of Libertarian resources on the net.  And
do some thinking on your own.  Start with the presumption that
individuals and private organizations can operate more efficiently than
the government.  


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman |"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From omega at cmq.com  Sat Sep 13 14:05:41 1997
From: omega at cmq.com (Omegaman)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:05:41 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights]
Message-ID: <19970913153532.19370@cmq.com>




On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 12:06:35AM -0800, John Smith wrote:

> 
> Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
> united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
> defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
> thing can't happen again.
> 
> Sometimes I think cypherpunks *want* crypto to be outlawed.

No.  Cypherpunks *expect* it will be outlawed.  And it will be yet
another largely uneforceable restriction.

Sure you can run around and trumpet about how bad it is that your
government is going to outlaw cryptography.  You can rant at the
fundamental unconstitutionality of it.  You can try to convince
legislators who don't even know what a mouse is that outlawing crypto
is a bad idea.

If it makes you feel good and you think its a valuable effort, knock
yourself out.

Personally, I'd like to see more disposable remailers, more
stego,continued development of the eternity server and similar ideas,
and an implementation of untraceable anonymous digital cash.  

(We have until Jan. 1, 1999)

Phil Z. didn't release PGP to show how much he disliked Clipper or
join in some unified opposition.  He released it to beat the
government's efforts to the punch and get unrestricted strong crypto
into the hands of anyone who wanted it




-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman |"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sat Sep 13 14:07:01 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:07:01 +0800
Subject: (fwd) IRS Modernization
Message-ID: <199709132104.RAA15285@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




-- forwarded message --
Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!news.starnet.net!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!computer-privacy-request
From: Monty Solomon 
Newsgroups: comp.society.privacy
Subject: IRS Modernization
Date: 12 Sep 1997 19:33:17 GMT
Organization: Computer Privacy Digest
Lines: 170
Sender: comp-privacy at uwm.edu
Approved: comp-privacy at uwm.edu
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.6
X-Original-Submission-Date: 11 Sep 1997 22:08:16 -0400
X-Submissions-To: comp-privacy at uwm.edu
X-Administrivia-To: comp-privacy-request at uwm.edu
X-Computer-Privacy-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 011, Message 10 of 12
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.society.privacy
	iQBFAwUBNBl8mTNf3+97dK2NAQGjTQF+IShsF6F0xmyCQi25Bh5+nlwfIOHLPVXm
	Aes89JHkrNTHPkuow8lQY/VJGKH4V/nY
	=pEpf
Originator: levine at blatz.cs.uwm.edu
Xref: wmich-news comp.society.privacy:527

Begin forwarded message:

    Date: 23 Aug 1997 21:21:31 -0700
    From: Michael Dodas 
    Subject: IRS Modernization - Request for Information
    Newsgroups: comp.software.year-2000

I just recently read IRS's "Request for Comments (RFC)", which solicits
comments for modernizing the IRS's tax systems.  This document is the
first information I've seen that shows just how desperate the IRS is
and how complex the IRS tax systems are.  Their systems are literally
incomprehensible.

I won't even attempt to describe this document in any type of detail.
My comments are merely those taken from the document that "caught my
eye" upon my first reading of this document (RFC).  To truly appreciate
the gravity of what the IRS wants to accomplish, you'll need to read
the entire document.  Keep in mind, also, that the Modernization effort
is intended to proceed as a separate project from the Year 2000
correction effort.

The document, which I will refer to as the RFC, begins with a cover
letter from Arthur A.  Gross, Associate Commissioner/Chief Information
Officer at the IRS.  Mr. Gross acknowledges that "the IRS assumed
primary responsibility for managing both systems development and
integration with less than acceptable results".  This statement sets
the tone for the IRS's direction of creating a "partnership" with the
private sector "stakeholders" to modernize the IRS.  Mr. Gross further
indicates that it is "myth" to believe that the private sector alone
could modernize the IRS, since IRS possesses the necessary "knowledge
of tax administration" to build a new system.  For all intents and
purposes, IRS wants to turn over all of the project management,
re-engineering, systems engineer, design and development and
integration expertise to the private sector.

I always knew the IRS was extraordinarily complex, but it is more
complex than I could have ever imagined.  The RFC indicated that the
complete Modernization Blueprint consists of seven volumes--count
them--seven volumes.  It may be a simpler system, but it will
inevitably end up being yet another complex monster.

The RFC continues to say that "during the 1980's and early 1990's,
effort focused on delivering taxpayer services and compliance
functionality together with limited on-line development of stand along
"stovepiped" systems with stand along data bases utilizing the
principles of distributed computer processing, an approach to computing
en vogue during the late 1980's and 1990's.  Overall, the IRS computing
environment evolved into an extraordinarily complex array of legacy and
stand alone modernized systems with respect to both connectivity and
interoperability between the mainframe platforms and the plethora of
distributed systems."  In other words, the IRS succumbed to "fashion
technology" solutions which did nothing but complicate their previous
efforts to modernize.

To give you an idea of how large the IRS's information system are,
consider these statistics from the RFC:

There are three computing centers, with sixty (60) mainframes in ten
regional service centers. NONE OF THE MAINFRAMES ARE CENTURY DATE
COMPLIANT.  There are 62 million lines of code in the IRS core business
systems.  Duplicate distributed networks have interoperability and
connectivity problems and are largely not century date compliant.

IRS mentions "risk" many times in the RFC.  "While the risks inherent
in Phase III may be nearly incalculable given the aged systems, the
absence of critical documentation, dependency on Assembler Language
Code (ALC) and the inevitable turnover of the IRS workforce supporting
these systems, it is essential to plan and execute the conversion of
the Master Files and its related suite of applications".  IRS seems to
know that it will not be able to retain its technical expertise, who
will probably bail for better paying jobs.

The IRS's goal is to canvas "any reasonable strategy to move forward on
modernization" while, at the same time, managing the immediate crisis
(Y2K) to "stay in business".  Given the complexity of IRS, its past
modernization failures and the Year 2000 problem facing them, you would
have to be insane to believe these goals were obtainable.

The Next Eighteen Months: Staying In Business And Preparing For
Modernization:

While searching for executive and senior information technology
managers, the IRS received in excess of 800 applications from the "not
faint of heart".  IRS has an interesting way of describing what kind of
job is in store for these people.  They'll be luck to keep any of them
around long-term.

Rebuild Product Assurance.  IRS indicates that staffing levels have
sunk to less than 30 percent of the minimum industry standards, and is
one of the highest priorities with IRS.  The RFC indicated that today,
major tax systems changes are not subjected to comprehensive testing
prior to being migrated to production.  Moreover, the Century Date
conversion will place an extraordinary additional burden on the Product
Assurance Program.  I think what IRS is saying here is that they don't
have the staff for a Y2K remediation effort and have obviously only
partially completed the inventory phase.

The IRS indicates that "it must undertake and complete major
infrastructure initiatives no later than June 1999 to minimally ensure
century date compliance for each of its existing mainframes and/or
their successor platforms.  At the same time, the IRS must complete the
inventory of its field infrastructures as well as develop and execute a
century date compliance plan for the conversion replacement and/or
elimination of those infrastructures."  How in god's name is this
possible by June 1999 when they haven't even started.  Notice how they
used the words "minimally ensure century date compliance".  What is
that going to accomplish.  Either you're compliant or you're not.

Basically, the IRS admits it was "wrong-headed" to modernize the legacy
systems instead of creating a brand new system.  Considering the
spaghetti code and systems in place, I would have to agree.  On the
other had, the IRS is indicating that contractual agreements may be
extended for up to fifteen (15) years for the modernization effort.
The new system will probably be obsolete before it ever gets off the
ground.

The last thing I will point out in the document stood out to me as the
most profound of all, for obvious reasons.  This is the way IRS
describes themself:

"The Information Systems (IS) organization of the Internal Revenue
Service (IRS) is a huge enterprise--employing in excess of 7,500
personnel across the United States, budgeted in excess of $1 billion
annually and responsible for the design development and ongoing support
of a highly complex and vast array of technologies which, taken
together, comprise the technology-based engine that powers the IRS.  A
$1.4 trillion Financial Services Program, IRS business enterprises are
unprecedented in size and scope - a Fortune One company - with service
centers, district office and regional office operations, staffed by
more than 100,000 employees, largely dependent on highly automated
process as well as the currency, comprehensiveness and availability of
vast storehouses of computerized data.

The latter half of the last decade of the twentieth century presents IS
management and staff with unprecedented challenges: fraught with risks
and potential for failure; yet filled with opportunity to serve the
nation's taxpayers, while contributing to the creation of the largest
and most sophisticated technology-based program in business or
government".

The above two paragraphs may well be the IRS's epitaph.

In my opinion, the only way the Federal Government can secure its tax
revenue collection system is to completely repeal the current United
States Tax Code and replace it with a VERY simple one like a flat tax.
Any attempt to fix (Y2K and Modernize) is impossible.  The IRS is a
classic example and sets the standard for systems which are too complex
to automate.  This level of complexity should be limited to scientific
endeavors.  I truly believe that it will be easier for NASA to put a
man on Mars more easily and quickly than to continue on with the
current IRS and tax code currently in place.

This amazing document can be found at:

http://www.ustreas.gov/treasury/bureaus/irs/prime/primerfc.htm

Then select Request For Comment No. TIRNO-97-H-0010

It is a 116 page Adobe Acrobat document.  I had great difficulty
printing the document because of the complex diagrams.  I have a HP
Laserjet/4 with 4 megs of memory.  The only way I could print it was to
use a Laserjet/III driver.  It worked at the high resolution, but not
as well as the Laserjet/4.  Leave it to the government to create a
document that you can't even print easily!

Happy Reading,

-- Mike Dodas


-- end of forwarded message --






From omega at cmq.com  Sat Sep 13 14:07:06 1997
From: omega at cmq.com (Omegaman)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:07:06 +0800
Subject: Any talk of limiting _existing_ crypto? (fwd)]
Message-ID: <19970913153732.26052@cmq.com>




On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 12:00:43AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> How about the system file i/o level?

Sort of like TCFS (Transparent Crytpographic File System) for Linux? 
Is there such a thing for Windows?  NT?  Mac?

If so I've heard of none.  


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman |"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From omega at cmq.com  Sat Sep 13 14:10:29 1997
From: omega at cmq.com (Omegaman)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:10:29 +0800
Subject: Let sleeping dogs lay]
Message-ID: <19970913153656.04134@cmq.com>



On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 05:04:52PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> "Nothing good can come out of crypto legislation."
> 
> --said by several of us over the past year
> 
> 
> The big mistake was ever introducing the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills, as it
> brought the NSA and FBI out of their warrens and into the warrens of
> Congress. Without any crypto bills at all, it is possible (though by no
> means certain) that no legislation at all would have been introduced this
> year.

And the longer the wait the better.  Some have complained that the
status quo situation of export restrictions was unacceptable.  Yet
the spread of crypto has largely been unrestrained -- a stay of
execution so to speak.  The longer the status quo remains, the more
ubiquitous crypto becomes and future legislative efforts are
undermined.

That said, I think these organizations made a strategic error.  Had a
draconian bill been introduced first, opposition probably would have
played out differently in the press.  We saw this with Clipper.

I believe commercial interests played a large part in the push for
legislation.

Just another player in the game, I suppose.
 
> But once SAFE and Pro-CODE were out there, on the table, the forces in
> favor of a surveillance state began their lobbying in earnest, giving the
> infamous "if you only knew what we knew" scare tactic pitches. Last minute
> amendments and even complete bill replacements are easier to slip in than a
> Big Brother bill from the gitgo. Sure enough, the tide is now moving
> swiftly toward a future far, far, far worse than the mere annoyance of
> export controls.

You almost sound surprised.  Did they really think Congressman would
understand crypto?  Congressmen _do_ understand law and order and
protecting poor defenseless children from porn.  They understand
preventing "another Oklahoma.   And it's an easy sell to their
constituencies, too.

The average schmoe may indeed *want* more freedom, but he also he wants
to be protected.  And he also has a limited understanding of the
equation.  The easiest explanation wins, of course.
 
> to prison." The current language is of course a full-blown disaster.
> Pandora's box was opened by SAFE and Pro-CODE.
> 
> And so here we are. Multiple committees in both houses jockeying to see who
> can clamp down the hardest on crypto.
> 
> CDT, EPIC, and all the other Beltway insiders ought to think about this
> mess. Sometimes it's better just to let sleeping dogs lay. Or lie. Or
> whatever.

Some people just don't get it.  You'll never gain more freedom through
more legislation.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman |"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From hapgood at pobox.com  Sat Sep 13 14:12:55 1997
From: hapgood at pobox.com (Fred Hapgood)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:12:55 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <341cfde6.4510695@192.74.137.5>




>I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
>the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
>just that : bogus.  

Never underestimate how weirded out people can get about "security". 
You don't know about this, living in Canada, but nobody in America can
use a mailbox to mail a package now, just because one guy mailed a few
bombs.   We live in a time in which rocks in the parks have warning
labels bolted to them ('Caution: Slippery when wet').  I could go
on forever and so could you.  Health and security are the governing
superstitions of our age. 

Allowing uncontrolled encryption not only seems to open the door to
specific bogeymen, but frustrates the power of the 'security
apparatus' in general and across the board.  Nothing is scarier than
rhetoric about the police being helpless to protect you.  Few
politicans are willing to leave themselves open to the charge of not
standing by the police or tying the police's hands. I think 99 out of
a hundred politicians 'thinking' about encryption never get past this
point.  Most of them don't know enough to know that tax collection is
even an issue.  (Not that it probably is; governments used to raise
most of their money by taxing atoms -- real property and capital goods
-- and nobody I know has thought of a reason why they can't do it
again.)  

>
>For most peoples, privacy in itself is worth something only if 
>if they have some *value* they want to preserve.  Most of the 
>time, this value concretizes itself as "money".  So if we talk to 
>them in terms *they* understand, we run a much better chance to make 
>them understand why spreading crypto is a tool we believe will 
>greatly enhance human's life quality.
>
>Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the 
>financial aspect of crypto?


What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
taxes?  I'm afraid the set of people that would respond well to that
argument is not was large as you would hope.

Fred
www.pobox.com/~hapgood






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Sep 13 14:28:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:28:13 +0800
Subject: NoneRe: TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS
In-Reply-To: <199709120311.XAA10259@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199709132122.XAA10072@basement.replay.com>



One other option for non-destructive reverse engineering is to drive Vcc
with high frequency AC and measure the resonant frequencies on the chip. 
(Same is true for the ground pins, but this is complicated because the
substrate is often grounded and introduces a large capacitance) 

This produces a general `map' of the chip, although many of the
frequencies will overlap and be indistinguishable.  To remove the unwanted
noise, it is necessary to damp out the parts of the chip that you're not
interested in.  There are a variety of ways to do this but the one of the
easiest is with the magnetoresistance effect.  Disk drive rw heads work
well for this. (it's usually better to magnetize the whole chip and then
unmagnetize the part you want to look at.) 

Input pins are most likely connected to an insulated gate, but this will
act like a capacitor, allowing ac into the channel, so we can probe these
to see where they go.  Newer chips have filters on the inputs which makes
this more difficult. 

once you have selected a target area, turn on the transistor(s) by any of
the usual methods (uv light, electron beam, external e-field...if you're
poor you could try pumping the substrate to induce latch-up, though this
isn't very `selective' in what it turns on) 

Two main problems with this techinque:  One is that the relevant
resonances are on the order of 10-100 GHz.  Obviously you are not just
going to plug that into your average scope and expect it to work.  The
usual advice is to maintain a reference oscillator and measure the
interference with respect to your `probe'.  If you have access to some of
the newer GaAs amps, you can modulate the signals and then measure the
lower sideband. 

The other problem is the finite resolution (even if you have a really good
magnetic head you just can't get close enough to the surface without
destuctive techniques.)  To a large degree, you have to `brute force'
guess, and see what model best fits the data.  I shouldn't have to explain
the details of this technique to a group of cryptographers. 






From harka at nycmetro.com  Sat Sep 13 14:32:59 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:32:59 +0800
Subject: Distribute a key, go to prison.
Message-ID: <341B054E.11E3@nycmetro.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay at got.net to Harka <=-

 In> "Distribute a key, go to prison."

 In> Simple, by declaring that public keys themselves are crypto
 In> material, as the Brits did in their Trusted Third Parties
 In> draft proposal, and hence declaring that distribution of keys
 In> after the effective date of the legislation constitutes a
 In> violation. Give someone your key, either by placing it on
 In> keyservers or even by mailing it to them, and one has just
 In> "distributed" crypto.

 In> This will make the public key infrastructure essentially
 In> useless, as the public key servers go down, as corporations
 In> yank any directories they may have, and (possibly) as
 In> individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME fingerprints or
 In> pointers in their messages.

But then the same thing will happen as with "censored" web pages.
Mirrors of key servers will be all over the world and render such
laws kinda useless.

You do have a point, however. I was thinking about a possible
nightmare-scenario similar to that: Remailers (as crypto-providers
and distributors) will be taken down in a syncronized effort in at
least the western world. Non-government-approved crypto outlawed
simultaneously. A few highly publicized cases of "violators" who use
crypto anyway.
Enough to scare the other 95 percent into complying.

Once that happens it will be too late...at least for a few decades.

Therefore crypto needs to be distributed and _used_ on a wide scale.
Maybe spamming the Net (once :)) with PGP will at least make a nice
publicity-stunt. Instead of "Adopt your legislator"-stuff it should
be "Adopt your local computer-fellows" to use PGP, Remailers etc..
Those who have the resources should implement new remailers, key
servers etc..

Cypherpunks don't whine! Cypherpunks have no need to be defensive!
Cypherpunks write code!

Ciao

Harka

... "Use a Cipher - Be Free!"




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBsDNzltEBIEF0MBAQGxTAf/WkPXY3Or4Ces2N0PGfmrdQL7G7lqqjyw
AVZVJv4/gsSXuiIoRIOh7GjVBWRMX4xli1835cvXrwwnQnw1YmOcaMBHLNvQ6kVT
FVv3BVc8rcP5l5uaqJsByWHjXDa7kmuRGrmzP6mv7ZBQRbaiqGZp0E2vDZpxjhND
he3HLCSR2TIzyR/o1pzdwFQzvfOSZh42yU5ssFLEcF5C0L/1KYMUJxyYYQ7aZoJN
vFBwO5rx+nk+csRRNGVoUTDZ3NcZWf46h21+Gc8BF2L4zQN/3p4FJUswBHEFO87Q
hqhA10lSrHdH2Lfb3ypFPlee7L1oaAx0T8dgBds/51R8geMp7NwI8Q==
=It/0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 15:39:31 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:39:31 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913205340.14699.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709132228.SAA27013@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 20:53, iang at systemics.com wrote:

> > Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the
> > financial aspect of crypto?
> 
> You answered it yourself.  There are more palefaces than bright-eyed
> injuns.
> 
> Sun Tsu (from memory): select the battleground where you are strongest and
> the enemy is weakest.
> 
> A battle on the field of taxation is a wipeout.  At least, on the field of
> privacy, 4th amendment and so forth provides a few weapons for the Freedom
> Fighters.


Sorry to say, but I don't completely get you idiosyncratic language.

My perception of it is that when you explain thoses things to 
productive individuals, i.e. individuals that get a lot of their 
money confiscated, most of them get quite interested while if you 
talk about the capability of talking dirty to your lover without your 
mother in law being able to know, they yawn faster than you can say 
"bit".

Thus, IMO, brigning the discussion on the ground of taxation would be 
an attention getter.  At least concerning the "guerilla" spreading of 
crypto, as Tim mentionned.

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From declan at pathfinder.com  Sat Sep 13 16:09:29 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:09:29 +0800
Subject: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



This proposal is perhaps the most terrifying thing I've read. Mostly
because such a proposal could pass quite easily by a small change -- one
sentence -- to the definition of "cryptographic product" in a bill.

You can bet that members of Congress would vote for it, too.

-Declan


On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Sure, underground use will continue. And those with PGP, and keys, may well
> have  a reasonable defense in court, arguing that the program *and* the
> keys they used were already in their possession prior to the effective date
> of the legislation.
> 
> But the effect would be chilling to almost any normal use of these programs.
> 
> This is my latest nightmare scenario.







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Sep 13 16:17:05 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:17:05 +0800
Subject: Nuke 'em 'till they glow (8)
Message-ID: <199709132310.AAA00898@server.test.net>




My contribution to the collaborative future fiction: "The True Story
of the InterNet" by Bubba Rom Dos, et al. 

Enjoy,


Adam
--
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

The original key had read:

	NSA FAPI signature key 

So much for NSA security, Jonathan chuckled at the rememberance of
that exploit.

Anyway, for amusement value, and 1.3 MegaWatts of electricity later
(the cowboy had given him a hacked power board account -- phree
electricity, wheee!), Jonathan's industrial grade Hewlett-Packard
deskfab 9GSII fabber had produced a nice matt black suitcase.

Jonathan watched the instructional 3d-mpeg file included on the
hydrocube, and spent a good hour in awe playing with the controls on
the suitcase.  Satiated with knowledge now that he knew how to operate
all of it's modes, he was lying comatose on the sofa wracking his
brains trying to overcome the next hurdle -- how to construct the
perfect way to nuke washington DC.  His plan so far was to spam each
of the `targets' with a word99 macro virus (thanks Bill Gates) in a
document describing his `SFr 10,000,000 campaign contribution' which
automatically spooled a mildly modified "nuke.fab" for fabrication,
and turned off the fabbers status leds through a Hewlett-Packard
firmware bug.  Jonathan had all this down pat.

(The modification to "nuke.fab" in case you were wondering was to put
the suitcase in detonate with no bypass mode, with an initial count
down of 30 seconds).

The problem was -- all those congress-critters were bound to be
running on a PICS fabrication rating below
`national-security-emergency', and so the faba-code verifier would
refuse to load the code.  Worse still the non-hacked HP deskfab models
after mandatory GAF (Goverment Access to Fabbers) was introduced would
narc out the owner to the Feds within minutes, thereby alerting the
dark forces as to what the plan was.

The wall clock now read 3.30am.

Jonathan dozed off to sleep dreaming of glow-in-the-dark
congress-critters.

...

"fifty-eight ... fifty-seven ... " 

Jonathan woke grogily to see a group of people huddled over a
suitcase.  In the middle of the group was Bubba Rom Dos grandiosely
counting down, in between swigging from his bottle of special reserve
and pressing buttons randomly on the suitcases control panel.
Priscilla and Alexis were peering closely at the pretty flatscreen
status display, making sage comments as to what the buttons might do,
for all the world as if they were playing a video game.

Jonathan came to his senses and screamed at the top of his lungs:

	"Nooooo!" 

and sprang to his feet.  He almost fell over again as the effect of
moving that quickly so soon after waking up hit him, his head
swimming.

All heads turned to face him.

"Yaieeeeeeee!" yelled Jonathan, as he rudely barged his way to the
suitcase control pannel, and began franticallly pushing buttons.

After a short panic attack, he calmed down sufficiently to notice that
the display read "no override".  Having absorbed the entire
instruction 3d-mpeg, Jonathan knew what that meant.  The LCD display
read 50 seconds.

Bubba swigged another gulp of his special reserve, and said innocently
"What's the problem?"

Jonathan looked fit to explode, his pulse was racing and his head hurt
horribly, "It's a nuke!" he screamed hoarsely, "and you've just armed
it, and I can't disarm it, and you've got ..." his eyes tore to the
display "45 seconds until you're vapourised."  Priscilla was already
running for the door screaming.

Bubba belched loudly, and looked slightly ill.  Alexis gulped and said
"What now?".

Bubba tosssed the empty bottle of special reserve on to the growing
pile of kipple in the corner, and pulled a fresh bottle from inside
his rain mac.

"Lets think rationally here" said Bubba, calmly, pouring himself a
shot of special reserve, "can't you um disable it, or um, un-fabricate
it or something".

A flash of inspiration hit Jonathan, seeping through his slowly waking
brain (he was not a morning person).

He flashed a grin to Bubba and walloped him hard between the
shoulder-blades shouting, "You're a genius!"  Jonathan then hugged
Alexis lifting her off the ground.

Bubba looked puzzled but pleased.  Alexis looked a little worried.

Jonathan looked at the display pannel on the suitcase "35 seconds".
`No problem' he thought.  He slammed the suitcase shut and practically
threw it in to the HP deskfab 9GSII fabrication bay, and slammed the
door shut.

Then he grabbed the keyboard, and began typing at around 100 wpm.

After a deathly long pause where the terabyte hydro drive light
flickered intermittently, the fab drive hummed to life.  The lights
dimmed with the sudden increase in power consumption.  A few seconds
later the drive light blinked out, and the deskfab fell silent.

"That," said Jonathan, stabbing the screen

-rw-r--r--   1 jon      users   7516192768 Oct  4 10:12 tmp00001.fab

where the words `tmp00001.fab' were emblazoned in green writing on a
black background, "is an armed nuke".


"Now, where was I?" mused Jonathan, and then remembering, rounded on
Bubba, "Uh yeah, just where exactly did you find nuke.fab?"

Bubba made an expansive gesture with his hands, and poured himself
another shot.  Throwing back the shot, Bubba said: "I got it off the
web,", and began searching through the pockets to his rain mac,
eventually pulling a scrumpled scrap of paper from his pocket, and
handing it to Jonathan.  "A kindly elderly gentleman with a 9mm uzi
gave me this address," he explained.  Jonathan looked at the badly
scrumpled scrap of paper, and was just able to make out:

	http://jya.eternity/cryptome/nuke.fab

Jonathan looked puzzled, the initials "jya" looked vaguely familiar to
him from his reading of old cypherpunks posts.  Ah, yes, it was that
Architect guy, John Young, who kept getting into trouble over hosting
materials that the feds didn't like.  So he was using the eternity
service now.


Now the panic was over Jonathan resumed his position on the couch,
allowing himself to recover from the previous nights hacking session.

"Say Bubba," Jonathan said with his eyes closed, "do you have any
ideas of how to by-pass the Fabasoft faba-code verifier on an HP
deskfab?"

Bubba finished his mouthful of strong spirits, "Huh?  Wassat you say?"

Jonathan explained to Bubba and Alexis the events of the night before
and of the plan to nuke washington DC, and party-way through Priscilla
returned, looking a bit sheepish for deserting them at such a crucial
time.

"So," said Alexis, "You used the deskfab to copy the armed nuke, hence
disabling it?"

"Sure, that's a standard function", said Jonathan, "it's a bit like a
3d photocopier, only you can set it to unfabricate the object being
copied at the same time."

"Well," pressed Alexis, miles ahead of Jonathan, and not needing the
mini-lecture on deskfab functionality, "couldn't you copy a deskfab?"

Jonathan opened his eyes from his inert position on the couch.  "Uh, I
dunno, yeah I suppose so...."

Then Jonathan saw the light, a second time that day: "Heh, yeah,
okay!" he enthused, "that's a cool idea Alexis."


Alexis and Jonathan excitedly started unplugging the deskfab from the
unix box.  

"Carry these," said Jonathan and thrust upon Bubba a laptop, the
hydrocube containing tmp00001.fab, and a bundle of interface leads.
Jonathan and Alexis proceeded to lug the desk fab out back, and down
into the basement.  Bubba and Priscilla followed puzzled as to what
the excitement was.

In the basement was an ancient looking Sun unix box.  The screen was
one of those huge glass tube affairs.  Beside it sat what looked like
a refridgerator with clunky looking dials on it.

Jonathan powered up the Sun box.  Suprisingly enough it actually
booted, and 10 minutes later, after an agonisingly slow process where
it went through checking (fscking) all it's ancient hard drives, which
wirred and clicked noisly, it came up, and the prompt said:

Welcome to toad.com

login:

Without hesitation, Jonathan logged in as `gnu', and immediately typed
in a password.  He was in.  Bubba and Priscilla exchanged glances.
Jonathan explained, "I shoulder surfed the password when John logged
in when I was at the physical cypherpunks meet in my grandpas study
all those years ago."

"This," he said patting the minifridge sized machine humming noisily
in front of them, "is his old machine, `toad.com', old home to the
cypherpunks list."

Next Jonathan lugged his deskfab into the refrigerator affair, which
apparently was an antique deskfab, sat the lap top on top of it, and
hooked the laptop up to the deskfab, and inserted the tmp00001.fab
hydrocube into the laptops hyro drive.  Then he wandered off in search
of a portable power source.  He came back lugging an emergency power
module `liberated' from the electric company at some point in the
past.

He hooked-up the power module to the HP deskfab.

"Now," said Jonathan, "the timing on this is a bit delicate", I think
there's only around 20 seconds left on the nuke.

Jonathan set the laptop on time delay to instruct the deskfab to
refabricate the primed nuke with 20 seconds left to pop time, but not
to start doing that for around 1 minute.  Then he slammed the
refrigerator sized fabricator door shut, and began typing in earnest
on toad.com.  The refrigerator started humming, and toad.com's drive
started buzzing frantically.

"Gee I hope the transfer rate on these mechanical drives is good
enough to copy it before it fabricates the nuke", opined Jonathan.

Jonathan started typing again.  "Shit! we're gonna run out of space!"
he said.  And started typing frantically rm -rf'ing anything that
could be rm -rf'ed without stopping the machine.  He rm -rf'ed
/usr/src, and /usr/spool/ and a bunch of other stuff.  He made it with
half a gig or so spare, and who knows how few seconds to spare.

The refrigerator-sized deskfab stopped humming, and the hum of the
contained HP fabber had stopped too as it had been rudely unfabricated
by the antique fabber.

Jonathan was pleased with himself now.

"That," said Jonathan, with a stabbing motion

-rw-r--r--   1 gnu      users   8589934592 Oct  4 10:42 donation.fab

where the words `donation.fab' were emblazoned on the clunky glass
screen, "is a freshly fabricated top of the range HP deskfab 9GSII,
which is just about to fabricate a suitcase nuke, which will pop a few
seconds after being fabricated".

"But will it pass the faba-whatsit verifier?" asked Alexis.

"Er are you sure this is a good idea?" asked Priscilla.

"Of course it is," said Bubba.

"That's a good question Alexis," Jonathan said ignoring the other
chatter, "I'm not real sure.  I think it should pass because, well,
the faba-code verifier isn't _that_ smart, right.  I mean to realise
that it will build a HP deskfab, which just happens to have freshly
downloaded instructions to build fissionable material patterned into
it's memory modules, I mean that's like solving the halting problem
right?"

Bubba cleared his throat, "If I might make a suggestion here", he
said, "now that the high falutin' theoretical stuff is out of the way,
the obvious thing to do is try it and see."

"A splendid suggestion", said Jonathan, begining to type once more,
"very good Bubba, the empirical hackers approach."

So Jonathan tried it, and saw.  He typed:

To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Bcc: president at whitehouse.gov
Bcc: freeh at fbi.gov
Bcc: feinstein at congress.gov
...

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Hello,

Please accept our campaign donation of SFr 10,000,000 in used swiss
francs.

Just double click on the enclosed attachment in your mail reader, and
it'll print out the donation file attached in an HP compatible fabber.
You'll need quite a large fabber, as SFr 10,000,000 is quite bulky.

Kind regards,

The Circle of Eunuchs

------=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="donation.fab"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: donation.fab (DeskFab 6 Document)
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="donation.fab"

AasdfAAzxcvAAA1234AA0M8R4KGxGudfghAApoiuAAASDFAertyAPgADAP7/CQAGAsdfgAwrtfAA
zxcvAAA1234AA0M8R4KGxGudfghAApoiuAAASDFAertyAPgADAP7/CQAGAsdfgAwrtfAAdfAAzef

[snipped to save space]

4AA0M8R4KGxGudfghAApoiuAAASDFAertyAPgADAP7/CQAGAsdfgAwrtfAAdfAAzefzxcvAAA123
------=_NextPart_000_01BCB88F.57968E50


Bubba, Alexis and Priscilla wandered back up stairs to wait and see,
whilst Jonathan sat working on a strategy of how to edit the
donation.fab file to get back his laptop, and the top of the range HP
deskfab 9GSII without also nuking himself.  He reckoned all he'd got
to do was edit out the memory module from the deskfab, by editing
donation.fab, and then he'd have it all back with out the nuke.

Jonathan become engrossed in the task at hand.

...

In a splendidly appointed, luxurious penthouse suite, rich in the
trappings of wealth and power, in the heart of Washington DC, a
bloated congress critter was eating well at the trough.  His whores
were attentive, dressing him for breakfast, and he had just been
bribed $1,000,000 by a telephone company special interest group to
throw a few billions in corporate welfare their way.

And that was just before breakfast, before he had even got out of bed!

Now it appeared he had something he should attend to urgently
something that had come on his `email address' what-ever one of those
was.  A minor aide bustled in.  The aide seemed quite excited, and
explained in fawning tones that a special interest group had mailed
him lots of Swiss Francs, SFr 9,000,000 in fact, but that there was
something strange...  there was no request for favors.  He said it was
just being printed out now, and perhaps there would be a note with the
money.

The congress critter, puffed contentedly on the hookah which one of
the whores had lit for him, hmm, yes he could see that this was going
to be a good day.








From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Sep 13 16:19:42 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:19:42 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: 



At 5:02 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Fred Hapgood wrote:


>  Health and security are the governing
> superstitions of our age.

Hmmmm... "My country 'tis of thee, land of gerontocracy"...

:-).

> What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
> should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
> taxes?  I'm afraid the set of people that would respond well to that
> argument is not was large as you would hope.

Amen. I, for one, say that the only hope is technological. If you make
commerce and finance cheaper without book entries, then book entry taxation
and regulation go away.

Hope we don't get fooled again, and all that, but at least you don't have
Archie* looking up your dress anymore...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

*WWI pilot expression for anti-aircraft fire. Named for a music hall
character with very shiny shoes. Hmmm^2. A cypherpunk neologism, anyone?
I'll use it if you will...



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 13 16:21:05 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:21:05 +0800
Subject: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
Message-ID: <199709132244.XAA00800@notatla.demon.co.uk>



Tim wrote:

> "Distribute a key, go to prison."

> How does the New World Order limit the use of strong crypto without "key
> recovery" when so many copies of older, pre-ban crypto are already out
> there?

> Simple, by declaring that public keys themselves are crypto material, as
> the Brits did in their Trusted Third Parties draft proposal, and hence
> declaring that distribution of keys after the effective date of the
> legislation constitutes a violation. Give someone your key, either by
> placing it on keyservers or even by mailing it to them, and one has just
> "distributed" crypto.

> This will make the public key infrastructure essentially useless, as the
> public key servers go down, as corporations yank any directories they may
> have, and (possibly) as individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME fingerprints
> or pointers in their messages.

> How possible is this? Recall that the British proposal formally classified
> key material, the keys themselves, as cryptographic products. The language
> of the current unSAFE and Procto-CODE draconian bills, still changing of
> course as committees rewrite them to be more Big Brotherish, is vague on
> what constitutes crypto.


I agree with the gist of this nightmare view, but don't think it describes
the British TTP proposal very well.


   140 These proposals - aimed at facilitating the provision of secure
   141 electronic commerce - are being brought forward against a background

               ha ha ha 

  1122   Encryption services_ is meant to encompass any service, whether
  1123     provided free or not, which involves any or all of the following
  1124     cryptographic functionality - key management, key recovery, key
  1125     certification, key storage, message integrity (through the use of
  1126     digital signatures) key generation, time stamping, or key
  1127     revocation services (whether for integrity or confidentiality),
  1128     which are offered in a manner which allows a client to determine a
  1129     choice of cryptographic key or allows the client a choice of
  1130     recipient/s.

My giving you my key does not provide you with 'choice of cryptographic key or
...  recipient/s' as I read it.  But if I signed your key and distributed it,
that would probably be a certification service (to you) in which you had
chosen the key to be signed.  Also if I gave you 2 keys of mine I think
that would be banned, because you'd have a choice.  This certainly does
discourage effective use, but I don't think the current wording is quite
so dire as to outlaw distribution of a single key.  I'd also say that when
an ISP carries my emailed key to someone they are providing a transport
service, and not a cryptographic one.

The 'or allows the client a choice of recipient/s' looks to me like a direct
reference to remailers.

As to signing non-key material; a service would be if someone I know brought
something (a photo for me to certify true likeness, a will for me to witness
their signature ...) and I signed it for him to indicate something to others.
Signing my outgoing letters is not normally considered a service.  My checking
the signatures on my incoming mail is probably not a service, even if it forms
part of the decision on whether to reply.

As to self-signing a key; it may be permitted following the model of the
above paragraph, or not.  I believe the proposal is deliberately vague for
FUD - and is bad law, regardless of the bad content.  I mentioned the
difficulty of deciding exactly what would be banned by this proposed law
in my article: "Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport".  Check the ar...BANG



--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From gary at hotlava.com  Sat Sep 13 16:33:37 1997
From: gary at hotlava.com (Gary Howland)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:33:37 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709132322.QAA29125@toad.com>




> Then, TM came to say that this is irrelevant.  TM was right in the 
> context of the post, but it led me to ask myself this 
> (vague) question:
> 
> 	What is the real issue here, what makes the govt so insistent about 
> 	wanting to ban crypto?  What is such a threat to them that it makes 
> 	them pass laws that are profoundly against the US constitution?  
> 
> 	What causes their panic?

They want to read your mail.  They would like to read your mind too.
 
> To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
> is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
> infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
> threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
> loop.

I disagree.  I think they want to read your mail.  I don't believe they are 
scared of "digital bearer bonds" etc., although I do believe that this is the 
most hyped issue on these mailing lists ...


> Any comments about why we should *not* put most emphasis on the 
> financial aspect of crypto?

Because the financial aspects are hyped way out of proportion on these 
mailing lists?

Also, you will find that the govt does *not* want to ban financial crypto
- it only wants to ban encryption - so how can you argue that they are 
panicking because of the financial aspect of crypto?  You can't.  They panic 
because they can't read your mail.

Gary
-- 
pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland 
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 







From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 17:35:25 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:35:25 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709140030.UAA28281@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 21:02, Fred Hapgood wrote:

> 
> >I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
> >the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
> >just that : bogus.  
> 
> Never underestimate how weirded out people can get about "security". 
> You don't know about this, living in Canada, but nobody in America can
> use a mailbox to mail a package now, just because one guy mailed a few
> bombs.

FUD.  There is quite a difference between what Joe and Jane Average 
are and what the Lie-Box with 500 channels and most Lie-Leaflets will 
tell you.  Sorry for my idealism, but I still believe that there is a 
quantum of Reason in the population.  But you may be right here.  

> What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
> should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
> taxes?

Duhhh, duhhhh, fucking duhhhh...

Why do you make me spend my resources (time, efforts) on having me 
defend myself on something I never said?  Just read my fucking text 
and this *is* what I said.  Go read Hettinga's rants on his web site 
about how e-$ will impose itself and why and consider that I agree 
with him on it.

[and here, I disregard the less-than-illuminated contradiction in 
terms]

And if you want to get emotionnal :-) , just as I also agreed and 
defended Jim Bell's opinion that AP was 
"not-possible-to-prevent-from-happening",  [unless they ban 
crypto, for legitimate e-$ scheme need authorities's tolerance of 
crypto] and backed my opinion with rational arguments. Thank you very 
much. 

Just like anybody describing and saying that the Ebola virus is 
mortal doesn't mean one loves to kill...  

So, DUHHHH squared.

Another time-wasting, word-twisting, fanatic-attracting, 
emotional-debate-inducing idiocy like that and [not a menace but 
simply a description of my quality-of-life enhancing measures] I 
will have one of my file past the terabyte mark...

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep 13 17:39:23 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:39:23 +0800
Subject: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970913235944.00814c1c@pop.pipeline.com>



Does the following provision of the amendment lighten 
Tim's dim glim?

   "� 2804. Encryption products manufactured and intended
   for use in the United States ...

   (d) USE OF PRIOR PRODUCTS LAWFUL.-- After 
   January 31, 2000, it shall not be unlawful to use any 
   encryption product purchased or in use prior to such 
   date.

[Bottom page 13]

That gives about 450 days to widespread stego, surrept 
onions and backchannels to prepositioned stashes. Max
use prior to.

Or, say to hell with it, coders will forever evade USCoders.







From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Sep 13 17:44:05 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:44:05 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 



Since Sept. 11th:

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

Forbidden

Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 17:45:43 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:45:43 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709140029.UAA28271@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

> (JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
> on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)

AFAIK, e$pam is not edited and not a digest.  But there might be 
parental control ...  :-)

> At 9:57 AM -0700 9/13/97, jf_avon at citenet.net wrote:
> >Hi.
> >
> >I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam
> >list.
> 
> Read the real list.

Tim, there are a lot of important issues in life, and crypto is only 
one of them.  I value your opinion a lot and find most of your 
comments to be not only valid but even often wise.  But of course, 
as a CP highness, you seems to sometimes forget :-) that:

1) CP is carrier to so much things that I don't find interesting

2) every second wasted never comes back

3) some of my other interests requires as much time as CP, mostly 
Canadian Firearms Digest where locally, we Canucks, are fighting a 
battle you are no stranger with, only we got it worse than you 
Yankees.

4) IMO, crypto has to be a useful tool to be interesting.  I am more 
interested in improving life than in building aesthetic mathematical 
algorithms.  And the most direct way to achieve this is anonymous 
e-$, not guns.

5) fighting for privacy rights will be irrelevant when govt will have 
been starved to extinction by e-$.

6) If I subtract from my awake time my working time, my eating time, 
my washing time, my ****ing time and my domestic chores time, it 
leaves me with time I can do whatever I want.  This remaining time is 
always too short.

7) After several weeks of being on CP and e$pam and e$ 
simultaneously, I found that I can read most of you posts on 
CP via e$pam, great thanks to RAH.  RAH seems to forward everything 
that is even remotely related to e-$.  Unless RAH has a 
Machielavelous plan to induce everybody in error, for the time being, 
he does a great job.  I subscribe from times to times to CP for 
random durations at random moments just to cross-check theses things. 
My last year long absence from CP was caused by entirely other 
things.  I had no time for any net stuff at all. 

> As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages from
> folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or "this
> is a private list" messages.

Why don't you try jf_avon at citenet.net? :-)  Get a decent mailer and 
you'll find it's easy...  :-)

> Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
> write unless I address it to them personally.

So now, do you propose mandatory voluntary subscription to some 
mailing lists?  :-)  Never thought about telepathy? Or becoming a 
prominent TV figure so that *everybody* (well, almost...) would be 
force-fed to TM-Stuff (tm) ?   :-)  OK, OK, I push it a bit 
but why should I have to suffer the intelligent and down to the point 
discussions on CP if I consider that I have other better things to 
do?  The issue comes down to the respect of the Individual. Could I, 
pe-lease, have my own interests? Pe-lease?

As for your perception of "loosing time on folks [snip]", I opinate 
that it is an error from you.  Although I am off from CP, I recently 
ordered Applied Crypto (at last, I found the money...), and I plan to 
give a small introduction talk to various persons and groups.  I make 
*every* *damn* *efforts* to spread PGP with everybody I know, 
distributing software and keys.

But you see, if you say to somebody : this will encrypt your 
communications" they don't give a shit.  

If you explain to them the digital telephony bill, the current 
tapping capability, the various moves that the govt is currently 
doing, *and* crypto through the e-$ applications *and* political 
consequences of e-$, *then* they *really* do get interested.  

In my own experience, introducing the topic by the e-$/govt-intrusion 
door is what gets them the motivation to learn text-based 
plain-vanilla PGP.  And as I said in an earlier post, the more they 
get their money confiscated in the name of the Great Unwashed 
Happiness, the more they get interested.

So, "that folk" is one it is unwise to neglect, he just gets 
overwhelmed by the sheer volume of stuff on CP.  Most of the 
discouraged just unsubscribe and a few rare stick to it in diverse, 
indirect ways.  The ones who stick to it might just be the most 
persistent of them all.

> JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.

I use Pegasus Mail V2.53 with a kill file verging on the terabyte 
thank you.  And I don't want to "participate", I want to exchange 
ideas.  Peoples who want to do so with me will do so.  If it is too 
much work to include me in your replies, just don't bother.

> Oh, and "cypherpunks at toad.com"

Please send me a valid name so I can keep posting to CP without 
suffering the irrelevant-to-my-interests stuff, in full confidence 
that RAH will keep doing it's fantastic job of forwarding your 
most-of-the-time-interesting-to-me posts.

Ciao Tim
Ciao all

jfa






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 17:50:43 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:50:43 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913234439.15765.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709140043.UAA28463@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 23:44, iang at systemics.com wrote:


> The battle should remain on the field of personal rights, because the
> battle over economics cannot be won, right at this current juncture in
> time.  I.e., Now.

Probably a sensible opinion.  But what would be the effect of pulling 
in the other direction?  Espcially if the population would be more 
personnally concerned with it?  The way it is now, National Security 
is a scarecrow but the real thing is the govt corn to be protected...

> As TCM will no doubt never tire of saying, the deployment of appropriate
> infrastructure is something that takes time.  Until the deployment of
> all that juicy stuff is in place, nobody can provide a single transaction
> of your three-orders-of-magnitude-reality.

Only, to deploy any e-$ scheme would need an environment where govt 
would _tolerate_ crypto.  But the way it is going, everything is set 
in place to trample on anybody's face that will use crypto with the 
"not-the-flavour-of-the-month-at-White-House" sauce such as e-$ 
programmers, etc.  

If the debate could be shifted-off, the legitimacy of the govt 
claimed goals could get strongly challenged.  This is possible only 
if there is a cause that concerns citizens directly.  Now, try 
telling me that taxation is the most popular of govt's measures...  
The fact that a majority voted for Politician A does not mean 
that a majority loves him...

> Of course this raises the interesting question of why the establishment
> does not shift the battle themselves ...

Precisely.  IMO, there is more hidden under there than meets the 
eye.  What if we try prying at this tiny, well concealed crack in the 
big wall?


Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From lunatic at dev.null  Sat Sep 13 18:23:26 1997
From: lunatic at dev.null (? the Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:23:26 +0800
Subject: Foreign language traffic on the CDR?...
In-Reply-To: <199709131819.NAA26600@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <341AFB12.219D@dev.null>



Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering if there was a large objection to carrying non-English
> crypto traffic...

I wouldn't mind, as long as there was no Jews, Polacks, or Australians.

? the Lunatic






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 18:29:48 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:29:48 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709140128.VAA28971@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 23:44, iang at systemics.com wrote:


> The battle should remain on the field of personal rights, because the
> battle over economics cannot be won, right at this current juncture in
> time.  I.e., Now.

Probably a sensible opinion.  But what would be the effect of pulling 
in the other direction?  Espcially if the population would be more 
personnally concerned with it?  The way it is now, National Security 
is a scarecrow but the real thing is the govt corn to be protected...

> As TCM will no doubt never tire of saying, the deployment of appropriate
> infrastructure is something that takes time.  Until the deployment of
> all that juicy stuff is in place, nobody can provide a single transaction
> of your three-orders-of-magnitude-reality.

Only, to deploy any e-$ scheme would need an environment where govt 
would _tolerate_ crypto.  But the way it is going, everything is set 
in place to trample on anybody's face that will use crypto with the 
"not-the-flavour-of-the-month-at-White-House" sauce such as e-$ 
programmers, etc.  

If the debate could be shifted-off, the legitimacy of the govt 
claimed goals could get strongly challenged.  This is possible only 
if there is a cause that concerns citizens directly.  Now, try 
telling me that taxation is the most popular of govt's measures...  
The fact that a majority voted for Politician A does not mean 
that a majority loves him...

> Of course this raises the interesting question of why the establishment
> does not shift the battle themselves ...

Precisely.  IMO, there is more hidden under there than meets the 
eye.  What if we try prying at this tiny, well concealed crack in the 
big wall?


Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 18:29:48 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:29:48 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709140128.VAA28974@cti06.citenet.net>





On 13 Sep 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

> (JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
> on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)

AFAIK, e$pam is not edited and not a digest.  But there might be 
parental control ...  :-)

> At 9:57 AM -0700 9/13/97, jf_avon at citenet.net wrote:
> >Hi.
> >
> >I've been lazily following the crypto-control issue through e$pam
> >list.
> 
> Read the real list.

Tim, there are a lot of important issues in life, and crypto is only 
one of them.  I value your opinion a lot and find most of your 
comments to be not only valid but even often wise.  But of course, 
as a CP highness, you seems to sometimes forget :-) that:

1) CP is carrier to so much things that I don't find interesting

2) every second wasted never comes back

3) some of my other interests requires as much time as CP, mostly 
Canadian Firearms Digest where locally, we Canucks, are fighting a 
battle you are no stranger with, only we got it worse than you 
Yankees.

4) IMO, crypto has to be a useful tool to be interesting.  I am more 
interested in improving life than in building aesthetic mathematical 
algorithms.  And the most direct way to achieve this is anonymous 
e-$, not guns.

5) fighting for privacy rights will be irrelevant when govt will have 
been starved to extinction by e-$.

6) If I subtract from my awake time my working time, my eating time, 
my washing time, my ****ing time and my domestic chores time, it 
leaves me with time I can do whatever I want.  This remaining time is 
always too short.

7) After several weeks of being on CP and e$pam and e$ 
simultaneously, I found that I can read most of you posts on 
CP via e$pam, great thanks to RAH.  RAH seems to forward everything 
that is even remotely related to e-$.  Unless RAH has a 
Machielavelous plan to induce everybody in error, for the time being, 
he does a great job.  I subscribe from times to times to CP for 
random durations at random moments just to cross-check theses things. 
My last year long absence from CP was caused by entirely other 
things.  I had no time for any net stuff at all. 

> As a comment, sometimes when I try to "reply to all" to these messages from
> folks reading digests, I get "you are not a member of this list" or "this
> is a private list" messages.

Why don't you try jf_avon at citenet.net? :-)  Get a decent mailer and 
you'll find it's easy...  :-)

> Fine, but it's why I won't waste time on folks who may not even see what I
> write unless I address it to them personally.

So now, do you propose mandatory voluntary subscription to some 
mailing lists?  :-)  Never thought about telepathy? Or becoming a 
prominent TV figure so that *everybody* (well, almost...) would be 
force-fed to TM-Stuff (tm) ?   :-)  OK, OK, I push it a bit 
but why should I have to suffer the intelligent and down to the point 
discussions on CP if I consider that I have other better things to 
do?  The issue comes down to the respect of the Individual. Could I, 
pe-lease, have my own interests? Pe-lease?

As for your perception of "loosing time on folks [snip]", I opinate 
that it is an error from you.  Although I am off from CP, I recently 
ordered Applied Crypto (at last, I found the money...), and I plan to 
give a small introduction talk to various persons and groups.  I make 
*every* *damn* *efforts* to spread PGP with everybody I know, 
distributing software and keys.

But you see, if you say to somebody : this will encrypt your 
communications" they don't give a shit.  

If you explain to them the digital telephony bill, the current 
tapping capability, the various moves that the govt is currently 
doing, *and* crypto through the e-$ applications *and* political 
consequences of e-$, *then* they *really* do get interested.  

In my own experience, introducing the topic by the e-$/govt-intrusion 
door is what gets them the motivation to learn text-based 
plain-vanilla PGP.  And as I said in an earlier post, the more they 
get their money confiscated in the name of the Great Unwashed 
Happiness, the more they get interested.

So, "that folk" is one it is unwise to neglect, he just gets 
overwhelmed by the sheer volume of stuff on CP.  Most of the 
discouraged just unsubscribe and a few rare stick to it in diverse, 
indirect ways.  The ones who stick to it might just be the most 
persistent of them all.

> JF, get a decent mailer and get on the real list if you want to participate.

I use Pegasus Mail V2.53 with a kill file verging on the terabyte 
thank you.  And I don't want to "participate", I want to exchange 
ideas.  Peoples who want to do so with me will do so.  If it is too 
much work to include me in your replies, just don't bother.

> Oh, and "cypherpunks at toad.com"

Please send me a valid name so I can keep posting to CP without 
suffering the irrelevant-to-my-interests stuff, in full confidence 
that RAH will keep doing it's fantastic job of forwarding your 
most-of-the-time-interesting-to-me posts.

Ciao Tim
Ciao all

jfa


-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 18:31:10 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:31:10 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
Message-ID: <199709140128.VAA28967@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 21:02, Fred Hapgood wrote:

> 
> >I think that *this* debate should be injected in the population and 
> >the *bogus* "national security" debate should be dismissed as, 
> >just that : bogus.  
> 
> Never underestimate how weirded out people can get about "security". 
> You don't know about this, living in Canada, but nobody in America can
> use a mailbox to mail a package now, just because one guy mailed a few
> bombs.

FUD.  There is quite a difference between what Joe and Jane Average 
are and what the Lie-Box with 500 channels and most Lie-Leaflets will 
tell you.  Sorry for my idealism, but I still believe that there is a 
quantum of Reason in the population.  But you may be right here.  

> What are you saying here?  That we should be arguing that encryption
> should be permitted because it will allow people to avoid paying
> taxes?

Duhhh, duhhhh, fucking duhhhh...

Why do you make me spend my resources (time, efforts) on having me 
defend myself on something I never said?  Just read my fucking text 
and this *is* what I said.  Go read Hettinga's rants on his web site 
about how e-$ will impose itself and why and consider that I agree 
with him on it.

[and here, I disregard the less-than-illuminated contradiction in 
terms]

And if you want to get emotionnal :-) , just as I also agreed and 
defended Jim Bell's opinion that AP was 
"not-possible-to-prevent-from-happening",  [unless they ban 
crypto, for legitimate e-$ scheme need authorities's tolerance of 
crypto] and backed my opinion with rational arguments. Thank you very 
much. 

Just like anybody describing and saying that the Ebola virus is 
mortal doesn't mean one loves to kill...  

So, DUHHHH squared.

Another time-wasting, word-twisting, fanatic-attracting, 
emotional-debate-inducing idiocy like that and [not a menace but 
simply a description of my quality-of-life enhancing measures] I 
will have one of my file past the terabyte mark...

Ciao

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 13 18:47:01 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:47:01 +0800
Subject: Anti-GAK Software Release
Message-ID: <8c65959608297d5b92a0e970b4cbcb62@anon.efga.org>




          Convert your GAKware to CRAKware!  **

	       http://www.antigak.com.ai/

	         Available Jan. 1, 1999
                    Ecash Preferred
 (Double-blinded, FinCEN Resistance Rating 3 or higher)


"Browser Booster is a cypherpunk's wet dream!"  - Anonymous

"More powerful than C2Net's StrongArm plug-in." - Also Anonymous

"My line was tapped, but I didn't care.  They thought I was
 chatting about roller derby, but I was really transferring
 US $100,000. to safe accounts beyond their reach." - L.D.


         Another fine product from Anti-GAK Software
  "Making the Net safe for privacy and commerce ... again."

                          ---

  ** CRAK = Cryptographically Resistant Access to Keys






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sat Sep 13 18:47:50 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:47:50 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913235844.15836.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709140141.VAA29143@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 23:58, iang at systemics.com wrote:

> That's right, there is a section of the population that is extremely
> interested in holding onto their e$.  Let's call them the rich, because
> they have e$ to think of.

Let's get into modelization! So, let's put first things first.

First, you shouldn't say e$ but $, because it is what thoses you 
call "the rich" have.

Now, does e-$ would permit govt to behave the same way as 
they do now?

> Then there is a section of the population that is not that so
> interested, because they fundamentally have very little e$ to
> protect.  Let's call them the poor; nothing to think about except
> lack of e$.

> The problem is that the rich win in the system known as the
> capitalist economy, but the poor win in the system known as the
> democracy.  There  is a balance between the capitalist economy and
> democracy that runs like  this:

How do they win?  By the use of coercion (and this is why guns 
should not get registered).

>    1. a democracy is the best protector of an open economy.

Out of what hat did you got that one? Who said so and why?  :-)  
My opinion is that your remark is falling into the same category as 
the the old fallacy saying "everything is uncertain but death and 
taxes". 

>    2. an open economy generates a small group of rich,
>       and a large group of poor (relatively speaking).

Statistically, yes.  But it doesn't intrinsically generates *envious* 
poors.  But that is a discussion about Values and Ethics and their 
link to emotions and nobody who's not an Ayn Rand fanatic or 
who doesn't have a few more terabytes of disk space to spare doesn't 
want to get into it...  :-)

>    3. a large group of poor will vote within a democracy
>       to tax the rich.

It depends on which moral code the legislative authorities base their 
actions.  But the sentence "a large group of poor will always try, 
within a democracy, to justify the muscling-in on the rich 
transactually-acquired wealth" would be true.

 
> It's the difference between politics and economics:  Are you going
> to tell the voters that the rich can hide their e$ or are you going
> to tell them that the Feds will spy on them?  As the voters are
> mostly poor, I'd be sticking with the second option.

True
 
> Remember, everybody gets one vote, but only the smart get lots of e$.

This one for-the-time-being reason why crypto should be deployed.


The true answers will be found in the nature of the data exchange 
system, it's robustness and reliability, and the impact of dropping 
the govt out of the money loop.  Sometimes, an invention can change 
the face of the world.  Mathematics did, gun powder did, the 
printing press did, the microprocessor did, so why not crypto?  And 
what is the most Joe Everybody consumer-oriented use of crypto?

Ciao

jfa

P.S. Anybody who has a clue about modelizing the effects  of a 
behaviour/entity (use of e$) that hamper the survival of 
another one (govt) in a complex system, please drop me a line (any 
micro-biologists online?)
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From jonl at onr.com  Sat Sep 13 18:51:57 1997
From: jonl at onr.com (Jon Lebkowsky)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:51:57 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709120505.WAA08152@remarkable.amazing.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970913203434.007122e8@onr.com>



At 12:48 PM 9/13/97 +0000, Doug Geiger wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, David H Dennis wrote:
>
>> Government is like the biggest company
>> in the nation, with no profit pressure to restrain bureaucracy.  
>
>I wonder what would happen if we created competition for the gov't. Say,
>make each state compete with each other, attempting to 'sell' services
>(roads, welfare, real estate, etc.) for the cheapest rates (taxes). That
>might force the gov't to radically change. One might say that exists now,
>as people can choose the state they're in. But what if the state were not
>restricted to only 'selling' within state lines, and the federal gov't had
>competition as well? A true capitialist-democrasy.

Actually, states do compete with each other for Federal money.
--
Jon Lebkowsky		http://www.well.com/~jonl
jonl at onr.com                  cdb, wfm, vb et al






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Sep 13 19:09:09 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:09:09 +0800
Subject: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for US Security
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:40 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Steve forwarded from Senator Bryan:


> of this technology. Unfortunately, encryption technology provides criminal
> organizations, terrorists, drug traffickers, and child pornographers with
> an effective method of shielding illegal activities from law enforcement
> agencies.

Wow. Horseman city...

I wonder who gives them the idea for this stuff?  Wired should be banned
from the confines of DC. ;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Sat Sep 13 19:09:19 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:09:19 +0800
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




Hey Dimitri!

The summer re-run season is over! How about some new material?

On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy C[retin] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.
> 
>     (((>     /<
>    (        /
>     ((({{{{{:<  Timmy C[retin] May
>             \
>              \<
> 
> 






From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Sep 13 19:10:11 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:10:11 +0800
Subject: e$
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:32 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Tim May wrote:


> Indeed, as I expected, e-spam sent me this message:

Actually, we just moved e$ a week or so from e$@thumper.vmeng.com, to
e$@vmeng.com, that's all.

We're still fixing the reply-to field in e$pam to reflect this.

e$pam is a one way list which only I can post to (it don't say e$pam until
I say it says e$pam, Bwahahahahah!), but e$@vmeng.com, which is the
watering hole and reply-to list for e$pam, is an open list, which doesn't
restrict mail from anyone.

Otherwise we couldn't get anonymous messages, right?

Cheers,

Bob Hettinga
(Who's just digging out from another ISP move, which is why this is taking
so long to answer)



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Sep 13 20:56:27 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:56:27 +0800
Subject: Foreign language traffic on the CDR?...
In-Reply-To: <199709131819.NAA26600@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <073Zce2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Jim Choate  writes:

>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if there was a large objection to carrying non-English
> crypto traffic...

Navajo?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From vin at shore.net  Sat Sep 13 21:07:31 1997
From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:07:31 +0800
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970913235944.00814c1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



	John Young, who informs so many, mulled the worst case scenario:

>That gives about 450 days to widespread stego, surrept
>onions and backchannels to prepositioned stashes. Max
>use prior to.

	Hmmm.  Isn't it time for a reality check?  Getting bent out of
shape because the House Intelligence Community -- surely the legislators
closest to the spooks and spies of the Permanent Government, and rather
addicted to its product -- votes to outlaw cryptography without a backdoor
seems to be excessive.

	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.

	I understand the Senate is perhaps gone, but the House?

	If I'm right, then we have been given the focus for a major
political action campaign.  I'm up for a bullet vote, where possible.  We
must build a coalition which will demand a yea or nay promise on access to
strong crypto from prospective candidates for the Senate and House in '98.
And from presidential candidates for 2,000.

	Personally, I think we should define the correct choice in terms of
Full Citizenship -- the option to whisper or encrypt that should be
available to every law-abiding citizen.

	And we should define the Spook & Spy alternative as the stunted
choice: a citizenship stripped of basic rights by an ambitous, jealous, and
greedy class of professional spies and their acolytes.

	This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds, were
not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police oversight and
investigation most cost-effective.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild +     *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From brianbr at together.net  Sat Sep 13 21:09:01 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:09:01 +0800
Subject: http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
Message-ID: <199709140334.XAA05918@mx01.together.net>



On 9/13/97 8:37 PM, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 
(remailer at bureau42.ml.org)  passed this wisdom:

>
>Since Sept. 11th:
>
>http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
>
>Forbidden
>
>Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 
>

 I tired to connect to it several times in the last half hour and MSIE 
returned and 'unable to connect" 


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
  "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
   he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy 







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Sep 13 21:17:05 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:17:05 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709140029.UAA28271@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: 



jf_avon at citenet.net writes:

>
> On 13 Sep 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:
>
> > (JF won't see this, unless Bob H. chooses to pass it on, Sandy-style. This
> > on unedited, undelayed lists, not on digests and delayed condensations.)
>
> AFAIK, e$pam is not edited and not a digest.  But there might be
> parental control ...  :-)

I tried to subscribe and was told that vnet doesn't like me.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Sep 13 21:27:17 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:27:17 +0800
Subject: Effect of new crypto provisions on e-commerce?
Message-ID: 



What effect if any will the proposed rules have, if enacted, to e-commerce?
To ecash?

--Steve







From attila at hun.org  Sat Sep 13 21:56:39 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:56:39 +0800
Subject: Make GAK or back doors better?  Hell NO!
In-Reply-To: <199709122333.TAA01905@mx02.together.net>
Message-ID: <199709140446.WAA10913@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    no, no, no --we dont try to make GAK 'better' --we dont do it
    at all. fuck them and the dirty horses they road in on.  

    _THEY_, not us, are the four horsemen of the apocolypse.

    to the despots in Washington, whose fat heads have never seen
    the sunshine, there is only one "gift"  --no code. let them
    find the dirty handed clods to do their own filthy work --if no
    decent programmers are willing to bloody their hands they will
    butcher the program more than they would otherwise, and it will
    be those miserable bastards who will be begging _us_ for mercy.

    if you believe in any freedom -dont be a fucking quisling.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNBszq704kQrCC2kFAQHSAAQAiKdHqcjF3vt0JP6y3j2NTSBhlaE1kWsS
nLiwBZuM0Wigr6Wo80k0+7IO+FJw1ZqCI7Aij0s3vZd/W0WnkTXg2BPJSM7R8G74
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hcoFiMBKaDE=
=QYWN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

on or about 970912:1933 
    "Brian B. Riley"  expostulated:

+-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
+Hash: SHA1

+On 9/12/97 1:31 AM, Anonymous (nobody at REPLAY.COM)  passed this wisdom:

+ [snip]

+>Now think about this: You're Joe Random Govt. Worker at the 
+>official secret key repository, and there's a budget crisis going 
+>on - instead of paychecks, you're getting I.O.U.'s. Your terminal 
+>has access to thousands, perhaps millions, of secret keys. You grab 
+>one of CitiBank's, forge a few transactions, and 30 seconds later 
+>your Swiss bank account is a few million dollars fatter and 
+>according to the digital signature, the transaction originated in 
+>L.A.. 

+ Please correct me if I am wrong, but could not a GAK backdoor be
+written that will simply permit decryption only of the ciphertext and
+not encryption. Would not this prevent this from happening?

+  Don'tget me wrong. It scares the hell out of me too, but maybe, in
+addition to that various things Tim has suggested we might also
+consider how to make the GAK as secure as cam be to minimize its
+potential for disaster.

+-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
+Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
+Charset: noconv

+iQA/AwUBNBnRQcdZgC62U/gIEQK+qACfSPjDLBIKmN4AgvEU6nBPmKKF+94AnR6T
+4ZV9vbLb7vCpaaKGZA1mPTmH
+=MbPr
+-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
+         For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
+  "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to 
+   stand by and do nothing"  Edmund Burke







From whgiii at invweb.net  Sat Sep 13 22:27:08 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:27:08 +0800
Subject: Who Is A Libertarian?
Message-ID: <199709140521.BAA21700@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well there has been some talk on the list of what libertarianism is and
what it stands for including an unfounded attack by Jim Choate worthy of
Kent Crispin.

For your enjoyment and education I shall once again quote from Dean
Russell with a piece he wrote in "Ideas on Liberty", May 1955: "Who is a
Libertarian?"


    Those of us who favor individual freedom with personal responsibility
have been unable to agree upon a generally acceptable name for ourselves
and our philosophy of liberty. This would be relatively unimportant except
for the fact that the opposition will call us by some name, even though we
might not desire to be identified by any name at all. Since this is so, we
might better select a name with some logic instead of permitting the
opposition to saddle us with an epithet.

    Some of us call ourselves "individualists", but others point out that
the opposition often uses that word to describe a heartless person who
doesn't cars about the problems and aspirations of other people.

    Some of us call ourselves "conservatives", but that term describe many
persons who base their approval of an institution more on its age than on
its inherent worth.

    Many of us call ourselves "liberals". And it is true that the word
"liberal" once described persons who respected the individual and feared
the use of mass compulsions. But the leftists have now corrupted that
once-proud term to identify themselves and their program of more
government ownership of property and more controls over persons. As a
result, those of us who believe in freedom must explain that when we call
ourselves liberals, we mean liberals in the uncorrupted classical sense.
At best, this is awkward and subject to misunderstanding.


                        A GOOD AND HONORABLE WORD

    Here is a suggestion: Let those of us who love liberty trade-mark and
reserve for own use the good and honorable word "libertarian".

    Webster's New International Dictionary defines a libertarian as "one
who holds to the doctrine of free will; also, one who upholds the
principles of liberty, esp. individual liberty of thought and action."

    In popular terminology, a libertarian is the opposite of an
authoritarian. Strictly speaking, a libertarian is one who rejects the
idea of using violence or the threat of violence-legal or illegal-to
impose his will or viewpoint upon any peaceful person. Generally speaking,
a libertarian is one who wants to be governed far less than he is today.

    * A libertarian believes that the government should protect all
persons equally against external and internal aggression, but should
otherwise generally leave people alone to work out their own problems and
aspirations.

   While a libertarian expects the government to render equal protection
to all persons against outright fraud and misrepresentation, he doesn't
expect the government to protect anyone from the consequences of his own
free choices. A libertarian holds that persons who make wise choices are
entitled to enjoy the fruits of their wisdom, and that persons who make
unwise choices have no right to demand that the government reimburse them
for their folly.

    * A libertarian expects his government to establish, support, and
enforce the decisions of impartial courts of justice - courts which do not
recognize or refer to a person's race, religion, or economic status. If
justice is to be rendered, the decisions of these courts must be as
binding upon government officials and their actions as upon other persons
and their actions.

    * A libertarian respects the right of every person to use and enjoy
his honestly acquired property - to trade it, to sell it, or even to give
it away - for he knows that human liberty cannot long endure when that
fundamental right is rejected or even seriously impaired.

    * A libertarian believes that the daily need of the people can best be
satisfied through the voluntary processes of a free and competitive
market. And he holds the strong belief that free persons, using their own
honestly acquired money, are in the best possible possible position to
understand and aid their fellow men who are in need of help.

    * A libertarian favors a strictly limited form of government with many
checks and balances -and divisions of authority- to foil the abuses of the
fearful power of government. And generally speaking, he is one who sees
less, rather than more, need to govern the actions of others.

    * A libertarian has much faith in himself and other free persons to
find maximum happiness and prosperity in a society wherein no person has
the authority to force any other peaceful person to conform to his
viewpoints or desires in any manner. His way of life is based on respect
for himself and for all others.

    * A libertarian doesn't advocate violent rebellion against prevailing
governments - except as a last resort before the concentration camps. But
when a libertarian sees harm rather than good in certain acts of
government, he is obligated to try his best to explain to others who
advocate those measures why such compulsory means cannot bring the ends
which even they desire.

    * The libertarian's goal is friendship and pease with his neighbors at
home and abroad.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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T0evXKHd+lMU57VjgZhhOeR/gBG0evTTwhvSsaUgT0yRj/ImKm+dLuJB6KqArA3b
bs7XFBjbPcQ=
=Qlhm
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From whgiii at invweb.net  Sat Sep 13 22:47:48 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:47:48 +0800
Subject: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709140543.BAA22255@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/13/97 
   at 08:56 AM, Tim May  said:

>This will make the public key infrastructure essentially useless, as the
>public key servers go down, as corporations yank any directories they may
>have, and (possibly) as individuals stop putting PGP or S/MIME
>fingerprints or pointers in their messages.

Oh it would effectivly kill PGP but expect S/MIME to florish. My last
reading of the S/MIME specs had direct reference to supporting GAK. If
this legislation becomes law you will see very shortly N$, IBM, HP, M$ all
with shinny new logos on thier products announcing that they are using
government approved crypto.

None of these companies are run by cypherpunks, they are run by "suits"
who would sell out their own country and it's citizens if they could turn
a profit doing so.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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From kent at songbird.com  Sat Sep 13 23:19:19 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:19:19 +0800
Subject: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709121201.OAA03505@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970913231227.65437@bywater.songbird.com>



On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 02:01:59PM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> 
[...]
> As Tim and others have noted from time to time, one man's terrorist
> is another man's freedom fighter.  A corollary to this is that one
> man's policeman is another man's terrorist.  Calling Horiuchi - a
> //trained sniper// - a policeman is stretching credulity.  Consider
> too that the Weavers weren't threatening anyone when they were
> initially attacked/ambushed by the Feds - so in what way were the 
> Feds fulfilling a "policeman" role?
> 
> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there 
> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a 
> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

That's a big difference, of course.

Note also that terrorists and freedom fighters are *both* outside the 
law, and are quite different from police.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From whgiii at invweb.net  Sat Sep 13 23:56:03 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:56:03 +0800
Subject: in defense on Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <19970913231227.65437@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199709140651.CAA24022@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970913231227.65437 at bywater.songbird.com>, on 09/13/97 
   at 11:12 PM, Kent Crispin  said:

>On Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 02:01:59PM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>[...]
>> As Tim and others have noted from time to time, one man's terrorist
>> is another man's freedom fighter.  A corollary to this is that one
>> man's policeman is another man's terrorist.  Calling Horiuchi - a
>> //trained sniper// - a policeman is stretching credulity.  Consider
>> too that the Weavers weren't threatening anyone when they were
>> initially attacked/ambushed by the Feds - so in what way were the 
>> Feds fulfilling a "policeman" role?
>> 
>> In any case, it wasn't really my intention to "compare" the deeds of
>> Horiuchi and McVeigh.  I was merely noting that the defense of
>> Horiuchi by Herr Direktor Freeh could have been used nearly
>> verbatim in McVeigh's behalf.  As you've pointed out, though, there 
>> /is/ that crucial difference though, isn't there?  One of them has a 
>> badge and gets paid by the taxpayers, which makes him a "policeman."

>That's a big difference, of course.

>Note also that terrorists and freedom fighters are *both* outside the 
>law, and are quite different from police.

That's right Kent it puts him in the big league with the agents of the
Gestapo, Russian Secret Police, and other jackbooted thugs throughout the
world.

When this murderious pig is executed for his crimes what I leave on his
grave will not be mistaken for roses.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From steve at xemacs.org  Sun Sep 14 00:16:36 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (SL Baur)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:16:36 +0800
Subject: none
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  writes:

> Since Sept. 11th:

> http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

> Forbidden

> Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 

Something is seriously wrong with the ifi.uio.no server.  You can't get
much of anything off of it.  I doubt the general outage is pgp related,
this isn't the first time there have been problems with it.






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 00:33:22 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:33:22 +0800
Subject: Today's meeting
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914002831.006f0114@netcom10.netcom.com>



Thanks to everybody that showed up for today's meeting. Much is happening.
And it is not just the evil legislation moving through Congress.
Cypherpunks have been busy writing code. A very useful Ecash implementation
compatible with DigiCash's protocol will be released next week. Onion
Routers have been ported to Linux. Other semi-clandestine projects are
moving forward as well.

Again people asked me where to find some pictures from the Cypherpunks
field trip to HIP'97. One more time: all archives are accessible via
http://www.hip97.nl/

Some of the better archives are Joichi Ito's pages at
http://www.ito.com/mpeg/hip/ which amongst other things features an MPEG of
myself as a DJ

Next, check out the HIP'97 network site at http://spin.vpro.nl/hip.shtml
You have to go a few levels deep before seeing the usual suspects.

And you haven't lived until you see the RealVideo of Brian the HIP Brain
http://magazine.dds.nl/XArtikel.phtml?ArtID=156&KatID=7

In fact, there are about five or six articles about us on this
semi-official HIP journal site. http://magazine.dds.nl/XKaterng?KatIDnu=7

Have fun,

--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From steve at bob.com  Sun Sep 14 17:28:50 1997
From: steve at bob.com (steve at bob.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Free National Advertising!
Message-ID: <199709150019.CAA05111@isis.wu-wien.ac.at>



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From tjunker at mail.phoenix.net  Sun Sep 14 02:40:34 1997
From: tjunker at mail.phoenix.net (Thomas Junker)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:40:34 +0800
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970913235944.00814c1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709140946.EAA13017@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>



On 14 Sep 97 at 0:00, Vin McLellan wrote:

> 	Hmmm.  Isn't it time for a reality check?  Getting bent out of
> shape because the House Intelligence Community -- surely the legislators
> closest to the spooks and spies of the Permanent Government, and rather
> addicted to its product -- votes to outlaw cryptography without a backdoor
> seems to be excessive.

I disagree. "They" instinctively perceive that they have a PR
climate in which they have successfully elevated the Horsemen to
deities that no politician who values his reelection will challenge.
The whole situation has been engineered, in part for this moment.
They will do it this session if they can, otherwise next session.

If you haven't noticed, we are well down on the slippery slope of
acceptance of unconstitutional legislation and executive acts. 
With the substitution of outrageously unconstutional language for 
the original text of SAFE, the slope has just steepened dramatically 
and the edge above is pretty well out of reach.  

The problem is that no constitution has the power to enforce itself.
It depends entirely on a wide, usually mostly unstated agreement
that its principles are Very Important Things.  Liberia, you may
recall, copied the U.S. Constitution almost to the word, and it did
them no good whatsoever because the people were not imbued with the
spirit of the document.  It's quite remarkable that any semblance of 
our Constitution has lasted as long as it has, but it's pretty 
obvious that the general understanding and agreement that holds such 
things in place has passed below critical mass in the U.S.  The 
government is now moving into "anything goes" mode.  That's when the 
slope becomes nearly vertical.

> 	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
> double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
> House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.

Some thought the same of the CDA. In a few years more some will be 
saying the same of some death camp bill. It's all relative, and the 
relative window in this step-wise game of incremental slavery is 
quite narrow these days.

> This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds,
> were not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police
> oversight and investigation most cost-effective.

Right, but it's illustrative of the problem that one writes, "and
the rights of citizenship the state concedes," because this nation
was founded on no such basis.  The state conceded nothing because the
state was considered to have no natural powers, unlike the
contemporary view in the rest of the world then, and for the most
part, now.  Both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
make it pretty clear that the foundation for the U.S. government is
the delegation of powers from individuals endowed with natural
rights.  Most of the rest of the world still functions on the model
of a soveriegn state which graciously grants rights to its
citizen-units and can withdraw them by the same power.  It's a
fundamental differenc that few people outside the U.S. even
contemplate.

Also, as has been suggested in another post, this is about *money*,
not national security. Or it's about *power*. Or *money* as the
lifeblood of *state power*. I doubt there is a politician or 
bureaucrat above the level of Mayberry who actually fears *any* of 
the Horsemen. On the contrary, the Horsemen are the statists' best 
friends. Without the hyped dangers there would be little excuse for 
the stepwise evisceration of the Constitution and the construction of 
the most technologically advanced police state in the history of 
mankind.

This latest assault on the Constitution was inevitable. Only the 
timing may have been affected by pro-crypto legislative efforts. 

Major grabs of power are almost always preceded by a period of 
softening up by PR bombardment, exactly what we've been seeing for 
the last couple of years. Any time you see a concerted PR campaign 
to demonize something it's a lead pipe cinch that it will culminate 
in a move to grab power. Trace things back to the beginning of the PR 
campaign and that's the point in time when the ultimate objective was 
already in the sights of the movers and shakers behind the campaign.

TJ






From tjunker at mail.phoenix.net  Sun Sep 14 02:45:35 1997
From: tjunker at mail.phoenix.net (Thomas Junker)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:45:35 +0800
Subject: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for US
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709140953.EAA16689@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 21:45, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 2:40 pm -0400 on 9/13/97, Steve forwarded from Senator Bryan:
> 
> > of this technology. Unfortunately, encryption technology provides criminal
> > organizations, terrorists, drug traffickers, and child pornographers with
> > an effective method of shielding illegal activities from law enforcement
> > agencies.
> 
> Wow. Horseman city...
> 
> I wonder who gives them the idea for this stuff?  Wired should be banned
> from the confines of DC. ;-).

Note, too, how well the Senator firmly straddles the fence all
through the letter, agreeing somewhat with one position but
remaining concerned about the flip side.  It's a complete CYA job,
part of a library of boilerplate updated as the issues come and go,
and designed to make every correspondent feel like the Senator
understands the constituent's position regardless of what it may
really be. It's the ultimate in "reasonable," "responsible"
Newspeak and scarcely touched by human hands, much less Senatorial 
ones.

TJ






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Sun Sep 14 05:08:02 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:08:02 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <19970913153616.25353@cmq.com>
Message-ID: <199709141158.HAA18846@upaya.multiverse.com>



Omegaman writes:

: What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig? 
: (if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)

What it is, under current law, is a violation of Export Administration
Regulations, unless you somehow get a license before you send the
reply.  Of course, if you send the reply in hard copy you would be all
right under the EAR, though it would seem to be a violation to
distribute the reply in the United States, if the proposed legislation
were to be enacted.


--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 06:21:14 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:21:14 +0800
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914061202.006c2168@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 04:34 AM 9/14/97 -0500, Thomas Junker wrote:
>On 14 Sep 97 at 0:00, Vin McLellan wrote:
>> 	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
>> double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
>> House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.
>
>Some thought the same of the CDA. In a few years more some will be 
>saying the same of some death camp bill. It's all relative, and the 
>relative window in this step-wise game of incremental slavery is 
>quite narrow these days.
>
>> This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds,
>> were not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police
>> oversight and investigation most cost-effective.
>
>Right, but it's illustrative of the problem that one writes, "and
>the rights of citizenship the state concedes," because this nation
>was founded on no such basis.

The key thing to realize is that the power of the state in the US derives
from the will of the governed. What Cypherpunks tend to ignore is the
simple fact that the governed want to be governed. The People want
warrantless wiretaps, they want crypto to be outlawed, they want the death
penalty for anyone that passes a joint to their kids. That they arrived at
these wants due to propaganda is irrelevant. Congress simply reflects the
will of the People. If you doubt this fact, just conduct a poll that asks
the following question:

"Should suspected nuclear terrorists and child molesters be allowed to
engage in their activities unchallenged OR should the government be enabled
to have access to all plaintext?"

Crowley would argue that this is not their True Will. Correct, but since
the People are not going to discover their True Will, who cares?


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From cancel at nytimes.com  Sun Sep 14 21:39:41 1997
From: cancel at nytimes.com (NYT Web Customer Service)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: We received your mail
Message-ID: <9709150437.AA27508@mailgate.nytimes.com>


Dear Subscriber:

Thank you for writing to cancel at nytimes.com. This automated response is to confirm receipt of your request to cancel. If you are an international subscriber, your subscription will be cancelled within 24 hours.  Domestic (free) subscribers please allow 3 days for the cancellation to occur.


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The New York Times on the Web
Customer Service


>From cypherpunks at toad.com  Mon Sep 15 00:37:06 1997
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X-Sender: cypherpunks at toad.com (Unverified)
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:38:23 -0500
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From: "cypherpunks at toad.com" 
Subject: Welcome to The New York Times on the Web
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 





From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 08:07:16 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:07:16 +0800
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914080508.00718784@popd.netcruiser>

At 04:34 AM 9/14/97 -0500, Thomas Junker wrote:
>If you haven't noticed, we are well down on the slippery slope of
>acceptance of unconstitutional legislation and executive acts. 
>With the substitution of outrageously unconstutional language for 
>the original text of SAFE, the slope has just steepened dramatically 
>and the edge above is pretty well out of reach.  
>
>The problem is that no constitution has the power to enforce itself.
>It depends entirely on a wide, usually mostly unstated agreement
>that its principles are Very Important Things.  Liberia, you may
>recall, copied the U.S. Constitution almost to the word, and it did
>them no good whatsoever because the people were not imbued with the
>spirit of the document.  It's quite remarkable that any semblance of 
>our Constitution has lasted as long as it has, but it's pretty 
>obvious that the general understanding and agreement that holds such 
>things in place has passed below critical mass in the U.S.  The 
>government is now moving into "anything goes" mode.  That's when the 
>slope becomes nearly vertical.

If this is correct, expect some major anti-gun legislation in the next few
years. Even if government is totally evil, the people can still protect
themselves from jack-booted thugs if they are sufficiently well-armed. This
means owning assault weapons. Get them while you can, they're going
fast...and LOTS of ammunition.

>> 	Declan or someone who tracks Congressional voting trends should
>> double-check me, but I harbor doubt that the US Congress (or rather, the
>> House of Represenatives) is about to vote and approve such a bill.
>
>Some thought the same of the CDA. In a few years more some will be 
>saying the same of some death camp bill. It's all relative, and the 
>relative window in this step-wise game of incremental slavery is 
>quite narrow these days.

The process that brought Hitler is very similar to what is happening in the
US today.

1. All guns had to be registered. (much of this work was done by Hitler's
predecessors, but it made his job much easier.)

2. Abortion was made available on demand.

3. Euthanasia was made available for the terminally ill, then encouraged
for the elderly and feeble-minded.

4. Privately owned guns were confiscated. Freedom of speech and press was
curtailed.

5. Euthanasia gradually began to be applied to Communists, labor union
organizers, Jews, homosexuals, religious leaders, and anyone else who
opposed the government, eventually requiring the death camps to process all
those requiring euthanizatrion.

Most Germans didn't wake up to the situation until it was too late. Martin
Neimoller's quote "...and when they came for me, I couldn't say anything,
because there was nobody left to speak for me" (paraphrased) is one of the
most damning indictments of the sheeplike tendencies of most people. At
this time, we are working on steps 3 and 4 in the US.

>> This Nation, and the rights of citizenship the state conceeds,
>> were not defined and enumberated in terms of what will make police
>> oversight and investigation most cost-effective.
>
>Right, but it's illustrative of the problem that one writes, "and
>the rights of citizenship the state concedes," because this nation
>was founded on no such basis.  The state conceded nothing because the
>state was considered to have no natural powers, unlike the
>contemporary view in the rest of the world then, and for the most
>part, now.  Both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
>make it pretty clear that the foundation for the U.S. government is
>the delegation of powers from individuals endowed with natural
>rights.  Most of the rest of the world still functions on the model
>of a soveriegn state which graciously grants rights to its
>citizen-units and can withdraw them by the same power.  It's a
>fundamental differenc that few people outside the U.S. even
>contemplate.

Of course, this fundamental truth is not taught in public schools anymore,
the better to condition the populace to embrace step 5. You have to be one
of those home-school nuts or be able to afford a good private school to
learn _real_ history.

>Also, as has been suggested in another post, this is about *money*,
>not national security. Or it's about *power*. Or *money* as the
>lifeblood of *state power*. I doubt there is a politician or 
>bureaucrat above the level of Mayberry who actually fears *any* of 
>the Horsemen. On the contrary, the Horsemen are the statists' best 
>friends. Without the hyped dangers there would be little excuse for 
>the stepwise evisceration of the Constitution and the construction of 
>the most technologically advanced police state in the history of 
>mankind.

Obviously, Big Brother cannot propagandize "We hate strong crypto, because
anonymous e-cash allows people to untraceably move funds anywhere in the
world without our knowledge, avoid paying taxes, and create anonymous dead
pools we can't trace or regulate." So the Horsemen are Big Brother's only
option.

>This latest assault on the Constitution was inevitable. Only the 
>timing may have been affected by pro-crypto legislative efforts. 
>
>Major grabs of power are almost always preceded by a period of 
>softening up by PR bombardment, exactly what we've been seeing for 
>the last couple of years. Any time you see a concerted PR campaign 
>to demonize something it's a lead pipe cinch that it will culminate 
>in a move to grab power. Trace things back to the beginning of the PR 
>campaign and that's the point in time when the ultimate objective was 
>already in the sights of the movers and shakers behind the campaign.
>
>TJ

Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Sun Sep 14 08:40:43 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:40:43 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970912172053.2605.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914113657.006daba8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


>On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:
>
>> So, does anybody besides me think these crypto bills aren't going
>> anywhere?  I still think it's just a trick to get the original 
bill
>> killed.  No way are most congresscritters going to vote for this
>> with all the opposition that's coming out.  Just my opinion...
>
At 09:07 PM 9/12/97 +0000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Don't be too sure. The national security establishment is swarming 
on
>Capitol Hill. They have momentum. SAFE and ProCODE are dead and 
gutted. 
>The chair of House Rules is now eager to push SAFE to the floor for 
a
>vote. What, you think Clinton won't sign the new SAFE bill? 

It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think the 
administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what 
they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.

At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that is 
highly optimistic.

I predict shouting on the floors of both houses and maybe even a 
shoving match or two before this is settled. Early evidence of the 
passions stirred: my story at 
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwo/0911/inwo0007.html. the 
atmosphere in that room was, to put it politely, charged.

Another prediction: if the administration loses, you can count on a 
huge shake up at the top of the FBI. A defeat on this issue will make 
Ruby Ridge, Waco and Hoover's days of wiretap abuse and blackmail 
seem like the good old days. And since the FBI is playing front for 
what is now clearly White House intent - forget meaningless blather 
over what is "policy" and "not policy" - it will be the Fibbies who 
take the hits.

Crypto wars? Hell, we haven't even seen a good border skirmish yet.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter at ctive Week
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNBwEmdZgKT/Hvj9iEQLfnwCaAssvJsE+EtsJWajcJ2165Nu3MDwAnjvc
lbGKZM43BEPPXFCD1Hj6jdEF
=IGUz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From bianca at dev.null  Sun Sep 14 08:43:53 1997
From: bianca at dev.null (Bianca)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:43:53 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 9 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <341C0129.41EA@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 19627 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Sun Sep 14 09:15:38 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:15:38 +0800
Subject: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5vh291$q8d$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



Two snips from the bill:

>LEGAL TO USE CRYPTO: "After January 31, 2000, it shall not be
>unlawful to use any encryption product purchased or in use prior to
>such date."

>[T]he "president may by executive order waive
>any provision of this act" if he thinks it's a threat to national
>security.

   - Ian






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Sun Sep 14 09:41:34 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:41:34 +0800
Subject: Note to Net-lobbyists: give it up already, abandon Congress
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5vh3n6$qm9$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



In article ,
Declan McCullagh   wrote:
>The status quo, combined with the court challenges, is not that bad.

Only if the court challenges get decided in our favour, and go all the way
up the Supreme Court without being struck down.  The current situation
is terrible.  I agree that it's unlikely that legislation will be able to be
passed that would fix this.  The court challenges, of course, move slowly.

   - Ian






From 43809380 at msn.com  Mon Sep 15 00:46:12 1997
From: 43809380 at msn.com (43809380 at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: WARNING - Major Investigation May Involve You
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  THIS IS NOT A  FRANK MULLEN / CYBER PRODUCTS / SPYMASTER  PUBLICATION















From azur at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 10:03:40 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:03:40 +0800
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199709140946.EAA13017@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
Message-ID: 



>Obviously, Big Brother cannot propagandize "We hate strong crypto, because
>anonymous e-cash allows people to untraceably move funds anywhere in the
>world without our knowledge, avoid paying taxes, and create anonymous dead
>pools we can't trace or regulate." So the Horsemen are Big Brother's only
>option.

So, if these "instruments of freedom" could only be useful to criminals,
then the last great hope for our country may be in the hands of
drug-trafficers, terrorists and the like, since only they will be free ;-)

--Steve







From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep 14 10:15:27 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:15:27 +0800
Subject: Today's meeting
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970914002831.006f0114@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:28 AM -0700 9/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>Thanks to everybody that showed up for today's meeting. Much is happening.
>And it is not just the evil legislation moving through Congress.
>Cypherpunks have been busy writing code. A very useful Ecash implementation
>compatible with DigiCash's protocol will be released next week. Onion
>Routers have been ported to Linux. Other semi-clandestine projects are
>moving forward as well.
...

Indeed, it was a very good meeting. Thanks to Hugh Daniel and Dave Del
Torto for the planning and arrangements for the meeting space.

For those who didn't make it, a few notes:

* About 45 people attended. This was actually the 5th anniversary meeting,
and several of us who were at the first one were at this one. (Eric Hughes,
John Gilmore, Hugh Daniel, me.)

*The UnFreeh legislation was a major topic of discussion. Kelly Baugh (sp?)
of PGP Inc. gave a good update on the unSAFE and Procto-CODE bills.
Pro-CODE is essentially dead, of course, replaced by the McCain-Kerr(e)y
text, and not moving much. SAFE is in a state of confusion. The worst
language, the stuff we've been talking about so angrily, is not from the
committees that actually have primary control. She doubts their's enough
time for this language to clear the Rules Committee and make it in
NatSec-Intelligence draconian form to the floor, let alone pass, let alone
reach the Senate floor. She expects Congress to adjourn for the year in
late October or early November, and their just isn't time.

* Their strategy is "next year." Some opposition is building. She says Sen.
Trent Lott is strongly opposed to the unFreeh form. A coalition called
"Americans for a Secure Tomorrow" (Madison Avenue wins again) is active.
URL not immediately obvious as of yesterday (to all of those in the room
with Ricochet modems, which was about half the room!).

* I conducted a Delphi Poll to see what the sentiment was, at the end of
the discussion. Three outcomes presented:

- Outcome 1: The Congress passes and the President signs some form of the
"Crypto is banned" language this year.

- Outcome 2: The original form of SAFE, liberalizing crypto exports, but
also felonizing use of crypto in a crime or while thinking about a crime (a
joke), passes this year. (I didn't get into whether Clinton signs or vetos
it.)

- Outcome 3: Nothing happens. The original SAFE dies, and so does the
unFreeh version. For this year.

There were 7 votes for Outcome 1, zero votes for Outcome 2, and the
remainder, about 30-35, votes for Outcome 3.

* Much more was discussed, about corporations and their complicity, about
why crypto is such an obscure issue for most Americans, and so on. The
meeting got rolling at about 12:30, ran steadily for about 6 hours, and
adjourned to a nice dinner at Little Sichuan, just below the meeting place.

* On a personal note, I bought one of the "Communications Security Corp."
Triple-DES phone scramblers from Eric Blossom, who had a pile of them at
the meeting.

Others can add more about what happened.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From vin at shore.net  Sun Sep 14 10:27:18 1997
From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:27:18 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Will Rodger  declared:

>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think the
>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>
>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that is
>highly optimistic.

Will:

	Could you please explain the logic, numbers, and procedural
limitations of congressional action that lead you to this conclusion?

	Why not now?

	Why not between now and August '98?

	Why the deadline/target-date of August '98?

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild +     *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep 14 10:58:05 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:58:05 +0800
Subject: Nightmare Scenario: Public Key Distribution Controlled
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 4:03 PM -0700 9/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>This proposal is perhaps the most terrifying thing I've read. Mostly
>because such a proposal could pass quite easily by a small change -- one
>sentence -- to the definition of "cryptographic product" in a bill.
>
>You can bet that members of Congress would vote for it, too.
>
>-Declan
>

I brought this up at yesterday's meeting, and those who commented agreed
that "cryptographic keys" will likely be covered by the final language
(next year's version, if one believes the consensus of our meeting).

The U.K. TTP thing I cited is very long and detailed, in contrast to the
brief language now circulating for the unSAFE bill. The Brits were more
detailed in their planning process.

Kelly Baugh had a great line. I hope my quoting of it here does not get her
into trouble. Paraphrasing:

"The FBI would rather get legislation passed without much planning, and
then worry about the implementation later."

(Her version may have been blunter, about thinking vs. acting, but my
paraphrase captures the idea.)

Antonomasia (sp?) made some points about whether or not the TTP draft
really would cover key distribution. Recall we had many such discussions
around the time the TTP thing was first being circulated, circa earlier
this year. The archives may produce analyses on both sides.

I believe the TTP draft would certainly cover the keyservers, and possibly
even key-signing parties (under RICO, the Racketeer-Influenced and
Cryptography Organizations Act).

And whether the British TTP draft directly bans such things is not really
the point. The U.S. version (and the versions eventually adopted,
lapdog/OECD/Wasenaar/NWO style by other nations) could easily have explicit
language to cover this.

Like I said, I think the "key management...key certification...digital
signatures...." stuff in the TTP draft is *already* sufficient to, if
passed in the U.S., outlaw key servers. Whether contacting a key server in
a foreign location is also illegal is another issue. Recall, though, that
the TTP also had language about the illegality of using offshore
cryptographic services (even non-U.K. services in general!).

I believe the excitement we're now seeing is just Act One of the "Scare
Them 'till they Beg for Big Brother" show. Act Two will commence in 1998.
Probably with more detailed language, along the lines of the
OECD/French/British legislation.

The climax may not come until some Tragic Event: an airliner shot down by
crypto-using terrorists, a major Child Terrorism or Nuclear Pornography
ring is uncovered, another truck bombing, a nerve gas attack, a war in the
Middle East, etc.

Then the legislation will make it out of committee and be passed
overwhelmingly.

Exit, stage left.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Sep 14 11:07:25 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:07:25 +0800
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914080508.00718784@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: 



At 12:04 pm -0400 on 9/14/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> So, if these "instruments of freedom" could only be useful to criminals,
> then the last great hope for our country may be in the hands of
> drug-trafficers, terrorists and the like, since only they will be free ;-)

Either that, or we apply Moscaritolo's Conjecture:

"If we could just pass a few more laws, we'd all be criminals."

:-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Sep 14 11:08:17 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:08:17 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <19970913153616.25353@cmq.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:58 am -0400 on 9/14/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:


> : What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig?
> : (if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)
>
> What it is, under current law, is a violation of Export Administration
> Regulations, unless you somehow get a license before you send the
> reply.

Cool. At this rate, e$pam has violated the law several thousand times,
given the number of Adam's posts I've forwarded to it over the years, and
the number of foriegn e$pam subscribers.

Heck. Jail would be a great place to write an uninterrupted book-length
screed. I'm too ugly to be anyone's 'wife', anyway...



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Sep 14 11:36:07 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:36:07 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 9 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
In-Reply-To: <341C0129.41EA@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709141822.OAA07355@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <341C0129.41EA at dev.null>, on 09/14/97 
   at 09:22 AM, Bianca  said:

>

Could the NutScrape users out there please set up their mailers properly
so they send their messages out in *TEXT* rather than HTML??

HTML really has no place in E-Mail.

 one would think that N$ would atleast follow the RFC's and use
multipart/alternative format when it formats this crap.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNBwe749Co1n+aLhhAQFUxQP/cUbcBwUd+4/vl+yyJ7PfzAXw2dl34DHM
iptbQLYYyvQqrF3K1trbxV3VrhVAVQ5NZayTSBHqAHl55dcRCvAhYdCmTsscqjND
lv4HHV1qSM/msIkJEiQjZmcXVymfyUTj0psLfgDNNG9Yx/mtOkBq3vPl8v5/iveR
gaCQTHvWdUk=
=arjI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From grafolog at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 11:39:12 1997
From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:39:12 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Glenn Hauman wrote:

> Since you asked: about 20% of the US population has used the Internet or an
> online service in the past 30 days, according to Mediamark Research Spring
> 97. Under 40% own a PC at home, about 40% use one at work.
	
	Now how do you convince people that strong encryption is a very
	good thing.

	I'll lay odds that the majority of those people think that all
	encryption should be banned.   

	I know where I work, the idea that encryption should be legal
	is scoffed at.   <<  That includes the drug dealers that work
	there.  So much for the assertion that drug dealers use
	encryption. >>

	Hypothetical question:

	How will law enforcement deal with my 
	Enochian to Linear-B / Egyptian Hieroglyphics / Maya translation
	program, if encryption is banned?  It does provide clear text,
	albeit is a language that they don't understand.









From minow at apple.com  Sun Sep 14 12:43:33 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:43:33 +0800
Subject: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: 



Here are some notes I took at the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting
on September 13 at "PGP World Headquarters" in San Mateo. Quotes are
summaries and interpretations, but hopefullfy fair and accurate.
My interpolations enclosed in square brackets.

Cypherpunks meetings are not particularly formal, but more like a
dialog between a number of people, punctuated with slightly more
formal presentations.

----
Introductory discussion of the recent crypto-gutting legislative
proposals.
----

Eric Hughes (EH): This is the fifth anniversary of Cypherpunks. At
the first meeting, we demonstrated a number of the technologies that
are now becoming widespread, including remailers, and breaking weak
(i.e., exportable) cryphograph.

Tim May (Tim): What we feared five years ago is worse than Clipper --
it's an absolute disaster. The government has declared war on privacy.
The only survivor is likely to be Trusted Information Systems, which
has very close connection to the NSA.

EH: The government now desires access to all plaintext communication.

Tim: The British, and OECD, trusted third party proposal is a nightmare:
even if you have access to software such as PGP and Explorer that provides
strong privacy, the British now regard the keys you need to use that
technology as "crypto material" -- and it will be illegal to distribute
unbreakable keys [presumably without license or escrow capabilities].

Vinnie Moscaritalo (Vinnie): Black market?

EH: No: there will be an underground market [the distinction is important]
what we need are legitimate distribution of keys and crypto. Social pressure
will otherwise keep crypto unused.

Tim: Quoting Whitfield Diffie: this is like the war on drugs. Ban grypto
and companies will dpeutize themselves to assist the government just
as they did by requiring urine tests.

EH: [The computer industry is moving to] remote policy enforcement --
copyright enforcement [to prevent you from using software if you
don't have a license to it, or to prevent you from viewing a
copy of a movie]. The same mechanisms can be used to enforce crypto
regulations.

You can characterize GAK/ATP (Government access to keys, access to
plaintext) as possession with the intent to communicate.

Tim: The intelligence community wants to be your supplier of big-brother
crypto. They are not fascists; they just don't have a clue. Intel's
next [next plus one?] generation processors will devote 3-4% of
their chip area to functions that facilitate encryption. All processors
will be serial-numbered. [This makes it very simple to "seal" a
program so it can only be used on a single, specific, processor. This
capability has been used for a decade in the minicomputer world.]

Tim/EH: The battle must be fought in [the context of] the First
Amendment. Qooting Don Hayes: "Nothing good can come out of crypto."
[I think Hayes was referring to crypto legislation.]

-----
Jeremy of Blue Money Software briefly described their electronic
cash programming interface.

Someone (Jeremey?) described an "onion routing" electronic mail
protocol that conceals all information. This lets two people
communicate without any external party either reading the mail or
determining the sender or receiver. This was developed by the U.S.
Naval Research Laboratories. They need ths because they otherwise
cannot conceal sensitive communications within public traffic.

-----
Kelly Blough, PGP's Government Relations representative discussed
the recent legislation initiatives.

The Pro Code bill is dead. Stuck in a senate committee.

The McCane Kerry bill passed commerce, but was not reported out:
McCain doesn't like it. This is good news.

The SAFE bill (in the House) passed the [which?] committee in a way
that we like. The bill removes export control on public code. It
allows Americans full access to strong crypo. It was referred to
National Security, Commerce, and [International Relations?] committees.

National Security gutted the bill. Intelligence added FBI-requested
access to plaintext. This was done in an unusual closed-door markup.
[These are usually only done for military and intelligence funding
bills.] "The intelligence community wants to set policy."

Dave Del Torto (DDT): A friend says that the military intelligence
personnell are swarming on the Hill.

Kelly: thinks that this is mostly driven by domestic law enforcement,
not the military

Commerce added a gutting amendment, but now waiting two weeks.

Tim: Declan McCullogh said that Louis Freeh said that, if a
Congressman votes against gutting crypto, the FBI will blame the
next Oklahoma City bombing on that Congressman.

Kelly: This is good in one way: the cards are now on the table. The
regional telephone companies, auto manufacturers, are all on PGP's
side: "How can we help?" Banks and other financial institutions are
not on PGP's side: because of the export exception.. Maybe this will
change when the impact of domestic restrictions sink in.

John Gilmore (JohnG): sens a fax to his respresentative, Nancy Pelosi.
Asked whether this law should be passed without review. Her chief
of staff replied that Pelosi brought up issues, but didn't change
the consensus. Also brought up the lack of law enforcement tracking
and notification. Tom Lantos, who sits on both the National Security
and International Relations committees (and who is the representative
for PGP's district) -- for someone who is strong on on human rights,
he is voting against strong crypto.

Tim: Why does PGP participate in export committees.

Kelly: Industry group to lobby: Microsoft, etc. Big companies: trying
to demonstrate that it's not just software.

DDT: Electronic Freedom Foundation?

JohnG: We got out of lobbying. Focussing on the Bernstein appeal. John
is talking to Pelosi individually. She will write a minority report
of disagreement with the National Security committee decision.

EH: PGP needs support from cypherpunks.

Kelly: Lobbying media. Gutting crypto gives government access to reporters'
notes, to communication with anonymous sources. [Also lawyer, client.]

The SAFE bill will probably go to the floor as written. Amendments must
be voted upon. Pro Code is dead.

DDT: Political liability: Gore was thought to be a friend to Silicon
Valley -- maybe not now. But, maybe he doesn't think that Silicon
Valley helped Clinton in 1996.

JohnG: The "one time review" proposal lets "NSA read your source code"
Lets them find holes in your product. Pelosi's chief of staff said to
John that it will be illegal to sell strong crypto immediately after
the law passes. But distribution will be allowed until 2000. This was
put in for PGP: human rights workers are using it -- this will let
PGP spread around for three years.

Tim [?]: WIPO (world intellectual property agreement) will ban all forms
of code cracking. Pushed by content providers to secure their intellectual
property.

Kelly, with PGP former president Tom Steddings, wrote the recent California
legislature resolution.

JohnG: Trusted Information Systems has three patents on key recovery.

EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has not
been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms, not
in policy terms.

-------
Other notes (more technical)

Don't use a hardware black-box to generate private keys: they can
leak private key information in the public key. Use a mix of software
and hardware: do final generation in auditable software.

Ian Goldberg: Move crypto to Palm Pilot. Demonstarted secure e-mail
and web browsing on a Palm Pilot connected (through a bizarre collection
of cables) to a Metricom radio modem.

Dave Lainer [??] discussed cell phone privacy. There are three kinds
of information that needs to be secured: the voice message, the number
that you are calling, and the cell-phone identification. None of
this is secure on analog phones. The phone companies don't care about
user privacy: only about call setup privacy. NSA lied to telecom
committees about call security. Voice privacy is trivial.

PGP is trying to get their PGP phone technology into digital cell phones.
This can do end-to-end encryption between PDP-enhanced phones.

There are several kinds of information that need to be secured:
voice, billing information, dialed numbers, and the caller's physical
location.  The government likes secure billing information -- if they
don't know who made the call, they can't use it as evidence against
an accused.

JohnG: the cell phone authentication algorithm was recently cracked.

EH: New Japanese phenonemon: tiny PKS cell phones. Teen-agers (who are
driving lifestyle changes) all use them.

----
DDT: Discussed Open PGP: a non-proprietary standard presented to
IETF: This includes a public-key infrastructure, trust model, message
format, MIME (content format), and meta-certificate technology.

Proposed to the Vatican (Papal representatives must communicate
with Rome). Big battle in Rome between Netscape and Microsoft
to be the "official browser of the Vatican." Big is an underestimate:
Microsoft is offerring "eternal" licenses.

----
My notes end here. Apologies for any errors in transcription or
understanding.

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com









From declan at well.com  Sun Sep 14 12:55:20 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:55:20 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914113657.006daba8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 




On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote:

> It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think the 
> administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what 
> they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
> 
> At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that is 
> highly optimistic.

I agree with Will that we'll likely see shouting on the floor, but I'm
not as convinced on the timing.

Sure, it's incredibly unlikely that anything will pass both chambers this
year. But will it take 11 months? The sequence of events could look
something like this: 

By late September, the Commerce committee will vote on SAFE. By
mid-October, the committee chairs should have worked out a compromise
package. This goes to the Rules committee, chaired by Solomon. Until last
week he vowed to block SAFE. Now he'd like, I'm told, to get the FBI's
version to the floor immediately. There are, however, only so many slots
on the suspension calendar.

It's conceivable the House could vote on the bill this year, especially if
they leave town later than anticipated and only if the version is the
FBI's. (I think it's inconceivable that Goodlatte's version of SAFE could
get to the floor anytime soon.) Whether this happens or not will depend on
the Rules committee, the leadership -- and, most of all, behind-the-scenes
maneuvering.

The Senate, however, appears to be taking much, much longer. But I think
that the national security/l.e. forces can move long before the end of
next summer. 

-Declan








From declan at well.com  Sun Sep 14 13:05:51 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:05:51 +0800
Subject: Today's meeting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Pro-CODE is essentially dead, of course, replaced by the McCain-Kerr(e)y
> text, and not moving much. SAFE is in a state of confusion. The worst
> language, the stuff we've been talking about so angrily, is not from the
> committees that actually have primary control. She doubts their's enough
> time for this language to clear the Rules Committee and make it in
> NatSec-Intelligence draconian form to the floor, let alone pass, let alone
> reach the Senate floor. She expects Congress to adjourn for the year in
> late October or early November, and their just isn't time.

I agree with just about all of this. I do, however, think there's just
enough time for the NatSec/FBI version of SAFE to move to the floor. It
depends on how much effort the NSA/FBI want to expend. I wrote more about
this just now in the "Re: unSAFE won't pass?" thread.

> * Their strategy is "next year." Some opposition is building. She says Sen.
> Trent Lott is strongly opposed to the unFreeh form. A coalition called
> "Americans for a Secure Tomorrow" (Madison Avenue wins again) is active.
> URL not immediately obvious as of yesterday (to all of those in the room
> with Ricochet modems, which was about half the room!).

True, Lott would seem to be opposed to the FBI's language. (At least he
was opposed to McCain-Kerrey's bill, which didn't go nearly as far.) As
for the coalition, the hope would seem to be in running print ads in
members' own home districts. Make them sweat.

-Declan







From rickmun at 1stfamily.com  Mon Sep 15 04:32:13 1997
From: rickmun at 1stfamily.com (rickmun at 1stfamily.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $$FREE 1997`s #1 Home Business
Message-ID: <199709151132.EAA17024@toad.com>


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From samchua at singnet.com.sg  Sun Sep 14 15:16:37 1997
From: samchua at singnet.com.sg (Sam 'MaCpHReaK'  Chua)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:16:37 +0800
Subject: Proxies
Message-ID: 



Does anyone know of any public proxies?
Knowing that your sojourns through the net go through your Government's
proxies is really unnerving.







From markm at voicenet.com  Sun Sep 14 16:17:54 1997
From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:17:54 +0800
Subject: Proxies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Sam 'MaCpHReaK'  Chua wrote:

> Does anyone know of any public proxies?
> Knowing that your sojourns through the net go through your Government's
> proxies is really unnerving.

http://www.publius.net/~remailer/proxy_list.txt has a list of almost 200
publicly accessible web proxies.



Mark






From 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 14 17:05:57 1997
From: 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM (Michael Wilson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:05:57 +0800
Subject: Escrow system design query
Message-ID: <01INNGT441W0AKTJ63@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>



Does anyone know of a solid document out there in the web that actually
describes the proposed key escrow backbone network?  After wading through
considerable junk in the search engines (my, but the net is wordy on the
topic), I didn't turn up anything that looked like architecture.
MW






From KennethB at comm2net.com  Mon Sep 15 08:10:35 1997
From: KennethB at comm2net.com (KennethB at comm2net.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Are You In Need Of A Lifestyle Change...
Message-ID: <199709121338.JAA02274@server1.comm2net.com>


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From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 14 17:57:23 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:57:23 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks-j & CDR - cross subscription? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709150104.UAA30446@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:36:25 +0200
> To: Jim Choate 
> From: Joichi Ito 
> Subject: Re: cypherpunks-j & CDR - cross subscription?
> Cc: sen at eccosys.com
> 
> > Please let me know when you get cypherpunks-e up and running and I'll start
> > dumping to it from this end. Also please subscribe 'cpunks at ssz.com' to your
> > cypherpunks-e list so that I get outgoing.
> 
> OK. Just set up the list. I am using ezmlm with qmail in its vanilla form.
> I'm not sure what it uses for duplicates and loop control.. hmm... 
> I am leaving for Tokyo from Austria in one hour so maybe it is a bad idea
> to subscribe cpunks at ssz.com until I'm back?
> 
> In any case, please put cypherpunks-e at htp.org on the distribution for the
> list. If you think that your list can take care of all of the loop control,
> then can you tell me, or send mail to cypherpunks-e-subscribe at htp.org and
> add yourself to the ML?
> 
> Thanks for all of your help and appreciate very much being added to your
> network.
> 
>  - Joi
> 
> --
> Ars Electronica 9/8-9/14: Contact VIA GSM +49-171-357-9233
> PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
> PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
> Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
> To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to
> Tonga is not a signatory to the Berne or the Paris Intellectual Property
> Conventions

I just got the chance to add the link. They should be online for receive
only until Jiochi adds the cpunks at ssz.com subscription on his end.

We were originaly considering adding the cypherpunks-j list but the issue of
non-english language traffic arose. We compromised I suppose...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep 14 17:58:19 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:58:19 +0800
Subject: Federal motivation
Message-ID: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Martin Minow wrote:
> EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has
> not been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms,
> not in policy terms.

Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
appear to be "legitimate".

This transcends the issue of crypto, although the problem will be more
manageable if the use of crypto remains legal.

What we are seeing is the fight for survival of the institutions
created during World War II.  Their only purpose now is self
promotion.  This was universally recognized ten years ago when the
Wall fell, but somehow the "peace dividend" never materialized and
they got another trillion dollars out of us.

We can look at Russia and see just how hard it is for a society to
free itself of these sorts of institutions.  How much of the Russian
"Mafia" is composed of fragments of the KGB?  This story can be read
again and again throughout history.

What is different in 1997 is that the technology of mass surveillance
and population management is superior.  What is at stake is whether we
remain a free people or whether we end up with ear tags like cattle.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNBxsHZaWtjSmRH/5AQEcfAf/VGeyAVgrA7eztbu/4LtYb2dSYqAeTjjN
ud0vDFUZNUHcBi+xyh9NwlkDmsbr8RGOytdpIddKKbYvHa0P0ik3PkGiGMS3MiW5
6mIKV5OU0xb5uOadvBmRGwynydg8IpnkdWljazOiGLE2chTMRoIVghSguApxBzlQ
W9XLeB67xkNQHU9a0Plw0f0iBcGBML6yqNLNOGOehIm/LEV21k+OKlcW1aW0uksB
TD5HkynJvaD65Exlrps4AZLp6R1SEQe0UhS86KMekeUARub3MkMxmD4XgznEnRj3
19vOahUygnnQoy2BaAVRg+4M//4EOwk7SGsQ/RbEGoSpdnFHrZDKdQ==
=vQC6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 18:17:48 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:17:48 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <199709141158.HAA18846@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914161704.0074a580@popd.netcruiser>



At 01:29 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Heck. Jail would be a great place to write an uninterrupted book-length
>screed. I'm too ugly to be anyone's 'wife', anyway...

Just remember that toilet plungers don't care how ugly you are.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199709150128.UAA00354@smoke.suba.com>



> >If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
> >judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
> >in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
> >interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
> >I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
> >those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.
> This is a worthless and dangerous argument to make. If you can't see why,
> you have no business writing articles on this list.
> Hint: "The greatest good for the greatest number" is passe.

	I took the original writers point to be that maybe, just maybe
the reason they aren't giving us any numbers is because there AREN'T 
any numbers. That the chances are strong crypto _won't_ cause any deaths.
Won't cost any lives. They know that. 






From mix at magusnet.com  Sun Sep 14 18:38:02 1997
From: mix at magusnet.com (Magus Mixmaster Anonymous Remailer Service)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:38:02 +0800
Subject: What really happend in DC
Message-ID: <199709150133.SAA08718@mail.magusnet.com>



Several people have asked me for the real story of what went on in Washington. Here it is.

Some carpetbaggers (EFF, CDT, etc.) went to DC without having the first clue how the game is being played. Oblivious to the fact that Congress will not, can not, pass a pro-crypto bill, they found a few Congress people that either believed in the issue or at least thought they could milk it for publicity. Some bills were proposed and sent on their way.

Meanwhile, the real players were laughing their butt off. Their project was right on track. Using a time honored mixture of incentivising and FUD, GAK was pushed upon industry.

The real players know that banking will require strong crypto, so banking and financial transaction information are exempt from the export prohibition. This conveniently opens the most lucrative market segment of the worldwide crypto business to US companies, thereby reducing, if not eliminating, the business case for fighting export restrictions. If not eliminating because on the other end of the crypto spectrum, the export regs and GAK are irrelevant for all practical purposes. It simply doesn't matter for most people if their love letters are protected by 40 bits or by 128 bits. Nor will it matter if the crypto used has GAK or not. Unless they are into some _really_ kinky stuff.

The market segment between is too small to make it economical for large businesses (the only one's with clout and the only ones about who's campaign contributions one should worry) to fight over this issue with a very determined government.

With industry removed as an opponent (ignore for the moment the voices still originating from some industry spokespeople. They and their jobs will go away as their managers come to realize that said voices have a negative rate of return), only civil liberty groups are left. And as I mentioned earlier, those don't have any clue about the nature of the game at the national security (as in the very survival of governemt) level. The Four Horsemen can just ride right over them.

With the bull worn and tired, all that is left to do is the coupe de grace. Since Congress has become aware that crypto is an issue and since many lawmakers know by now that there would be some law, the bills already in Congress were simply rewritten. No point in wasting time by introducing a new bill.

Some may ask what the effect of all this will be. Simple:

o The "reliable parties" that need strong crypto will have strong crypto.
o Those that don't really need strong crypto won't have it.
o The government has new and better surveillance and control capabilities.
o The Cypherpunks attack on the State has been rebuffed, since the widespread use of strong crypto it requires won't occur. (Just to help those that will counter by saying that they'll still have a copy of PGP save some time: this is utterly irrelevant. The individual, or even a group of individuals can never be a danger to the State. Annoying perhaps, but not a danger to its existance. In fact, the occasional Cypherpunks with his copy of PGP provides a net benefit to the State. Just as the occasional terrorist or nutcase with a rifle does).







From jf_avon at citenet.net  Sun Sep 14 18:44:16 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:44:16 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709131600.MAA22590@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199709150137.VAA12586@cti06.citenet.net>



On 13 Sep 97 at 12:16, Black Unicorn wrote:


> >To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
> >is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
> >infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
> >threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
> >loop.

> Strongly disagree.

> In fact, the forces driving the current legislation, FBI, DoD, are more
> concerned not with being unable to decrypt in realtime than they are about
> being unable to distinquish, en masse, the bad actors encrypted
> communications with the paranoid but harmless crypto user.  If crypto gets
> widespread enough there is no way to filter one from the other any longer.

Your last sentence means that they can read crypted text.  They even 
hinted at it recently.  But then, why the proposed law?

Do they indulge in statistical efficiency or do they want 99.9999+% 
efficiency at their "filtering"?  I'd say if they "filter" only, say, 
90% of all communications and an Oklahoma City plan passes by in the 
10% remaining, it won't be good enough for them.  So, why the law if 
they already can decrypt?  Can you reasonnably expect the vilains 
to use the most easy-to-crack and/or GAKed schemes? 

> The "private currency and taxation loss" is not even on the radar screens.
> Oliver Ireland, of the fed, thinks its just silly to think that way.  Also
> see Kendall Houghton, (Committee on State Taxation) remarks on the subject.
> The powers that be just roll their eyes at the "no more taxes"
> crypto-radical crowd.

If you were in their shoes, what would you say to the public?  Ever 
heard about the game called Poker?  Did Santa told you they would 
never lie to you?

In the last few weeks, I've been thinking about the utility and 
security risk of using PGP if it can be cracked easily.

And then, I realized that my reaction was probably just what they 
expected: FUD to have people limit by themselves their use of strong 
crypto.  Coupled with the cops saying that "of course, we can decode 
them, but just a tad too slow to protect your childs...", I now 
believe they just can't crack it.

And with it, comes their crackdown on crypto users, their e-$ and 
their crypted love letters.


jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 14 19:08:23 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:08:23 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <9709120730.AA15341@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <199709150155.UAA00434@smoke.suba.com>



>> From: David H Dennis 
> > able to jump over 50 Libertarians in a single bound, 
> 	able to out-flame 5 or so Libertarians in a single thread is
> more accurate.

	Don't break your arm. 

> 	Here's a quick political lesson: Being a Liberal in the US
> means very roughly ONLY that one believes that the government has some
> role to play in moderating the excesses of the market. It does not

	That may be what they *SAY*, based on what they *DO*, what they 
are for is taking from the productive members of society, and giving to 
the unproductive. (or rather taking from the financially productive, and
giving to the financially unproductive.).

> particularly *make* you a civil-libertarian. However, because Liberals
> think about general social power and the abuse of it, they are very

	Liberals usually don't think much. They are too busy "feeling" and
playing with their crystals. 

> 	It also helps that Liberals are *predominantly* drawn from
> ranks of those who are the targets of both public and private
> abuses. So they often both favor government action against business

	Really? I wasn't aware that the Kennedys were/are targets of public
and private abuses. Nor are the Clintons (exepct they are from Arkansas), 
nor most _current_ union members, including their leadership. etc. 

> 	Corollary 1: Detonating a nuclear device in DC will not solve this
> problem. The surviving government will just have a very good excuse for
> crypto-controls.

	We got plenty of nukes, and if we feel those are too dirty (I don't 
think one or two would matter, but any more than that and things might get 
a little nasty) we could always descalate (or whatever the opposite of 
escalate is) to small arms or conventional explosives. 

> 	Corollary 2: Repeated Libertarian rantings won't solve it either.

	No, but it might get one or two people to stop fingering their 
crystals/genitals long enough to realize that big monololitihc governments 
do not now and never have provided protection for the individual. The 
protections of individuals, whether that be civil-liberty type protections, 
or protections against other evils is always more effective the closer it gets
to home. When neighbors work together, theives have a real hard time.
(the only time when Big Government tends to protect one better than the 
city/neighborhood is in times of war, but if there weren't any big governments,
there wouldn't be any big wars...).






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 14 19:13:02 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:13:02 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199709150206.VAA00457@smoke.suba.com>



> There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
> a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
> during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

	I think the point, Zooko, is that the sniper didn't 
"accidentally" kill the woman and her baby. It was a deliberate 
shot. If it wasn't a deliberate shot, then not only is the 
shooter criminally negligent, but so is the person who handed 
him the rifle. 

> Why I'm posting:
> I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
> more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
> blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that

	There is no (or little) hatred of individuals here. There
is hatred for ideologies, beliefs, and points of view. I don't hate
you. I don't know you. I might hate you if I knew you, it is a 
stastically probability, but until we meet, who knows. I DO hate 
big intrusive governments. I don't see the problem there. 
	
	I do hate the politics of the Big Lie, and the politics of 
mob rule. I don't see the problem there. 

	I do hate spending 1/3 to 1/2 of my working hours supporting 
lazy good for nothing bums. No, I am not talking about welfare reciepents,
I am talking about Government workers. I don't see a problem with this. 

> because there are a great number of silent readers of the 
> cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
> inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be 
> self-evident truths if they continually see them pass 
> unchallenged.

	Post a challenge, not erroneous "facts".






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep 14 19:15:21 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:15:21 +0800
Subject: Bean Counting II
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 6:28 PM -0700 9/14/97, snow wrote:
>> >If we had the proper figures to work with then we could make a valid
>> >judgment as to how many lives anti-GAK supporters would have to put
>> >in danger in order to tip the balance so that it would be in the best
>> >interests of the citizens to allow strong non-GAK'ed crypto.
>> >I, for one, would hate to see lives lost needlessly merely because
>> >those opposing GAK did not have the proper figures to work with.
>> This is a worthless and dangerous argument to make. If you can't see why,
>> you have no business writing articles on this list.
>> Hint: "The greatest good for the greatest number" is passe.
>
>	I took the original writers point to be that maybe, just maybe
>the reason they aren't giving us any numbers is because there AREN'T
>any numbers. That the chances are strong crypto _won't_ cause any deaths.
>Won't cost any lives. They know that.

And that's nonsense. The widespread deployment of strong crypto will in
various ways "cause" various deaths, in ways we've discussed many times
over the years.

So? Some of them will have deserved death, some will have gotten caught in
situations they didn't deserve, and so on. Any new technology or
communications medium produces deaths. Freedom of speech inevitably
triggers some historical developments which cause deaths. So?

It is fatuous nonsense to suggest "That the chances are strong crypto
_won't_ cause any deaths."

Not that "body counts" are a basis for deciding on basic freedoms. Which
was my point.


--Tim


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 14 19:32:05 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:32:05 +0800
Subject: Not key escrow, key recovery
In-Reply-To: <199709121430.QAA16638@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709150213.VAA00520@smoke.suba.com>



>>It is quite probable that this has been said before.  In case it hasn't,
>>however, I feel compelled to point out that mandatory key escrow/recovery
>>could likely mean an economic disaster of unimaginable proportions.
> (Underpaid clerk steals secret keys, etc.)
> Wake up.  It's not key escrow, it's key recovery.  Every message will be
> encrypted with a LEAF (law enforcement access field).  This is an additional
> recipient who can decrypt the message.  No user or corporate secret
> keys are escrowed.  You're working with yesterday's scenario.

	Oh, great. So there will be a few hundred LEAKs (Law Enforcement 
Agency Keys) laying around on hard drives all over the country so these 
LEA's can decrypt the messages. Great. 






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Sun Sep 14 19:35:08 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:35:08 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914113657.006daba8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914223133.006dd4dc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



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At 06:22 PM 9/14/97 +0000, Vin McLellan wrote:
>
>Will Rodger  declared:
>
>>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think 
the
>>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>>
>>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that 
is
>>highly optimistic.
>
>Will:
>
>	Could you please explain the logic, numbers, and procedural
>limitations of congressional action that lead you to this 
conclusion?

Sure. 

But let me throw in a simple caveat: politics is about people - _all_ 
predictions of what they will do are subjective.

>	Why not now?

With one month to go, there are a handful of things taking up time in 
Congress. The budget is the by far the largest one. Unless a bill is 
truly close to passing or the leadership has already evinced a desire 
to move on a bill - and they haven't - it's unlikely it will pass 
with so little time left.  Also, there's no bill in the Senate that 
goes as far as what's moving in the House; even Dorothy Denning says 
mandatory KR gives here the heebie-jeebies under current technology. 

Simply put: crypto is an issue of truly enormous import. Congress 
will figure that out quickly once everyone has heard both sides of 
the issue.

>	Why not between now and August '98?

That's my general estimate of the time needed for a subject that is 
simply too complex for quick action. Look at telecom reform: it took 
a decade to do. 

>	Why the deadline/target-date of August '98?

August recess. Getting something done far in advance of it just seems 
unlikely, but if it were close, the leadership might want to get rid 
of the issue before recessing. And don't forget that is an election 
year. No way do you want to go home and campaign with that issue 
still hanging fire. For that matter, a lot of people blamed crypto's 
slow progress on the whole of  '96. If it isn't settled by August, I 
think you're definitely into 1999. Now, again, there's no scientific 
proof that Congress couldn't move before then. This is just my own 
estimate of the importance of this issue.

Declan gets a fifth of whatever he fancies if this thing is settled 
before August 1998.

Cheers.


Will

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From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 14 19:36:37 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:36:37 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional
In-Reply-To: <199709121906.MAA29004@f50.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709150227.VAA00578@smoke.suba.com>



> thousands of
> >suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
> >gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
> >producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so 
> on.
> >All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?
> Why do you say that?  Clipper was defeated.  People all over the net
> united and opposed it.  Now there is this new threat, but at least
> defeating Clipper bought some time.  There is no reason the same
> thing can't happen again.

	The way I remember it, it was only defeated after  at Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies 
proved that the clipper chip could be counterfeitted and interoperate with 
"legitimate" clippered devices.

	Most people didn't even know about the fight, much less take a side. 

	The Code was written by Mr. Blaze, and the law fell apart. 






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 14 19:46:14 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:46:14 +0800
Subject: Self-Prohibition List
In-Reply-To: <3419A19C.1172@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709150232.VAA00600@smoke.suba.com>



> List of things you should prohibit yourself from putting in writing
> in a GAK'ed Universe:
> 1. You're Jewish.
  2. Your Sexual Predeliction, other than straight-missionary. 
	






From unicorn at schloss.li  Sun Sep 14 19:48:21 1997
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:48:21 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970913121630.006c66c0@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914214159.006c8da8@schloss.li>



At 09:34 PM 9/14/97 -0500, jf_avon at citenet.net wrote:
>On 13 Sep 97 at 12:16, Black Unicorn wrote:
>
>
>> >To this, all I can find of enough magnitude to put them in such state 
>> >is that they just recently *truly* realized that crypto will, 
>> >infinitely more than to threaten the security of the state,
>> >threaten their very existence by putting them outside of the money 
>> >loop.
>
>> Strongly disagree.
>
>> In fact, the forces driving the current legislation, FBI, DoD, are more
>> concerned not with being unable to decrypt in realtime than they are about
>> being unable to distinquish, en masse, the bad actors encrypted
>> communications with the paranoid but harmless crypto user.  If crypto gets
>> widespread enough there is no way to filter one from the other any longer.
>
>Your last sentence means that they can read crypted text.  They even 
>hinted at it recently.  But then, why the proposed law?

How does this follow?  It's purely a traffic analysis problem.  Has nothing
to do with cryptanalysis.

>Do they indulge in statistical efficiency or do they want 99.9999+% 
>efficiency at their "filtering"?  I'd say if they "filter" only, say, 
>90% of all communications and an Oklahoma City plan passes by in the 
>10% remaining, it won't be good enough for them.  So, why the law if 
>they already can decrypt?  Can you reasonnably expect the vilains 
>to use the most easy-to-crack and/or GAKed schemes? 

I dont understand how this follows either.

>> The "private currency and taxation loss" is not even on the radar screens.
>> Oliver Ireland, of the fed, thinks its just silly to think that way.  Also
>> see Kendall Houghton, (Committee on State Taxation) remarks on the subject.
>> The powers that be just roll their eyes at the "no more taxes"
>> crypto-radical crowd.
>
>If you were in their shoes, what would you say to the public?  Ever 
>heard about the game called Poker?  Did Santa told you they would 
>never lie to you?

Don't be silly.  The crypto-radical bunch is not taken very seriously.  I'm
not saying they should be, but face fact.  Your ego aside, you must realize
that government just doesn't think that taxation is really threatened by
digital bearer devices.  They think its threatened by the jurisdictional
questions.  Period.

>In the last few weeks, I've been thinking about the utility and 
>security risk of using PGP if it can be cracked easily.
>
>And then, I realized that my reaction was probably just what they 
>expected: FUD to have people limit by themselves their use of strong 
>crypto.  Coupled with the cops saying that "of course, we can decode 
>them, but just a tad too slow to protect your childs...", I now 
>believe they just can't crack it.

I've always believed they can't.

>And with it, comes their crackdown on crypto users, their e-$ and 
>their crypted love letters.

Believe me, e$ is not really on the map yet, and to the extent it is on the
horizon the person who will bring it to their attention has not bothered to
yet.








From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 14 20:13:11 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:13:11 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
Message-ID: <19970915030641.1770.qmail@hotmail.com>



Declan McCullagh :

>By late September, the Commerce committee will vote on SAFE. By
>mid-October, the committee chairs should have worked out a compromise
>package. This goes to the Rules committee, chaired by Solomon. Until 
last
>week he vowed to block SAFE. Now he'd like, I'm told, to get the FBI's
>version to the floor immediately. There are, however, only so many 
slots
>on the suspension calendar.

The thing I still don't understand is why anyone thinks the house
will support the new bill.  There were hundreds of co-sponsors for
SAFE in its original form.  The modified version is exactly the
opposite of the original SAFE.  So it seems like a majority of house
members should oppose the bill.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From minow at apple.com  Sun Sep 14 20:15:35 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:15:35 +0800
Subject: Federal motivation
In-Reply-To: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



Anonymous, signing as Monty Cantsin, Editor in Chief of Smile Magazine
quotes my Cypherpunks summary's quote of Eric Hughes:
>Martin Minow wrote:
>> EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has
>> not been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms,
>> not in policy terms.
>
>Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
>they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
>they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
>list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
>appear to be "legitimate".
>

Sorry, it isn't obvious to me. The most paranoid I can work myself
up to is to assume that some (not all) of our leaders want to restore
their half-remembered 1950's Dick-and-Jane, big car, Eisenhauer suburbian
childhood; and are afraid that letting absolute privacy loose will
be the end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it. This parallels the battles
that were waged in the early 1960's, as the civil rights movement
(and the Pill) shattered the myth of suburbia. The police and FBI
felt, quite sincerely, that they were in the midst of a revolution
and had to take "necessary measures" to save America.

The new cryptography makes the Internet safe for child pornographers,
for revolutionaries, for criminals, as well as for human rights
workers, for religious missionaries in unfriendly countries, and
multinational corporations. The message I read from the attempt
to criminalize strong cryptography is that the risk of damage
from the pornographers (etc.) is so great that we must restrict
cryptography and trust the national leadership to respect the
rights of the good guys. Unfortunately, one country's human
rights worker is another country's dangerous revolutionary.

Remember, the Martin Luther King who was thrown in jail in Alabama
in the early 1960's was the same Martin Luther Kings who received
the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later, and who was killed for
his revolutionary activities just a few years after that. Whether
he was a hero or villian depends on who writes the history book
and it is, ultimately, our responsibility to make sure that many,
conflicting, history books can be written.

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com










From azur at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 20:16:07 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:16:07 +0800
Subject: Pro-censorship lobbyist calls for AOL boycott
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:04 PM -0700 9/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) - Marc Klaas, whose daughter Polly was abducted from
>her bedroom and killed in 1993, is calling for a boycott of American
>Online until it stops allowing access to a Florida woman who posts writing
>and art by serial killers on the Internet.
>	Klaas particularly objects to the work of Keith Hunter Jesperson,
>who is serving three life sentences in Oregon for killings in the
>Northwest and is charged with one murder in Wyoming.
>	"America Online is hiding behind freedom of speech in allowing
>this monster to have a public forum," said Klaas, who was in Wyoming this
>week to promote the Klaas Foundation for Children, which he established
>after his daughter's slaying.
>	Officials for the nation's largest Internet access provider said
>Thursday that some material from the home page of Sondra London of
>Jacksonville, Fla., would be removed within 24 hours.


If someone on the list can figure out Sondra London's email address (I've
had no luck so far) we should show her how to use the Etermity service.

--Steve







From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 20:34:11 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:34:11 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970913121630.006c66c0@schloss.li>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914202931.006a7280@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 09:34 PM 9/14/97 -0500, jf_avon at citenet.net wrote:
>Do they indulge in statistical efficiency or do they want 99.9999+% 
>efficiency at their "filtering"?  I'd say if they "filter" only, say, 
>90% of all communications and an Oklahoma City plan passes by in the 
>10% remaining, it won't be good enough for them.

There are several fallacies in this paragraph. I'll address two of them.

First, you assume that terrorist actions are bad for the State. That is
incorrect. Terroism, unless widely supported by the population, is of great
benefit to the State. It helps to speed the passing of restrictive
legislation. If you doubt this, please do some research on the laws passed
in response to Oklahoma City in the US and the relevant laws passed
throughout the EU during the late seventies and early eighties.

Second, you assume that it would become widely know that the incriminating
message was missed by the monitors. This is also incorrect, unless the
monitors themselves choose to reveal the fact to support their future
requests for increased monitoring capablities.

The lack of positive identification of all participants on the Internet is
a displeasing hole to the surveillance state. Only an Internet driver
license can help patch this hole.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From vznuri at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 20:52:57 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:52:57 +0800
Subject: IRS tax reform y2k style
Message-ID: <199709150346.UAA18593@netcom13.netcom.com>




Gary North has been predicting apocalypse on the y2k subject
for awhile. but he has a lot of data to back his claims.
this talks about the IRS computers and predicts they're going
to collapse.



------- Forwarded Message

- - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Gary North's
>                              REMNANT REVIEW
>emailbonus:                                       Matt. 6:33-34
>year2000 at garynorth.com
>
>           Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
>   
>Vol. 24, No. 9                 590              September 5, 1997
>    
>       I am hereby lifting the copyright of this issue of
>       Remnant Review.  This one I want you to send to your
>       friends, neighbors, boss, Congressman, and anyone
>       else who might want advance information on the end,
>       at long last, of the 16th Amendment: vetoed by Year
>       2000 noncompliant computers.  Photocopy it, print it,
>       whatever.  Then visit my Web site for full documen-
>       tation (under "Government"):
>
>THE ULTIMATE TAX REFORM: JANUARY 1, 2000
>
>     What I am about to report will verify what I have been saying all 
>year.  If this doesn't constitute proof, I don't know what can persuade 
>you.  From this point on, anyone who tells you that the Millennium Bug 
>is not a big deal, or who says, "We'll just have to wait and see about y2k, 
>there's no need to hurry," simply doesn't know what he's talking about.  
>Ignore him.
>
>     On August 21, I stumbled into the most amazing government 
>document I have ever seen.  I had read a brief news story about a 
>company that had applied for a contract to work as a subcontractor for 
>the IRS in a restructuring of its computer systems.  The IRS admitted to 
>Congress last January that its $4 billion, 11-year attempt to modernize 
>its computer systems had failed.  Here was a follow-up story.  So, I went 
>to the company's Web site to find more information.  This led me on a 
>merry chase across the Web.
>
>     Finally I landed on the IRS's page -- specifically, its page relating 
to 
>its PRIME project.  There were pages of blue links to documents, each 
>one with a strange name or the name of a state.  It was not clear to me at 
>first what I had discovered.  So, I started clicking links.  I found nothing 


>that I could understand, link after link: government bureaucratese.  
>Then I hit pay dirt: the mother lode, my friends -- what we have been 
>waiting for since 1913.  Deliverance.  Free at last, free at last!  THE 
>IRS'S MAINFRAME COMPUTERS -- 63 OF THEM, PLUS 
>MICROCOMPUTERS -- ARE ON THE BRINK OF TOTAL 
>COLLAPSE.  Yee-hah!
>
>     This amazing admission appears in an innocuously titled document, 
>"Request for Comments (RFC) for Modernization Prime Systems 
>Integration Services Contractor" (May 15, 1997).  The author is Arthur 
>Gross, Associate Commissioner of the IRS and Chief Information 
>Officer, i.e., the senior IRS computer honcho.  It was Mr.  Gross who 
>went before Congress in January to admit defeat.
>
>     Mr. Gross now says that the IRS is no longer capable of operating its 
>own computer systems.  The IRS has over 7,500 people involved in just 
>computer maintenance, with a budget a $1 billion a year (Appendix B. 
>p. 2), yet they can no longer handle the load.  And so, says Mr. Gross, 
>some of them are going to get fired.  You can imagine the continuing 
>morale problem that this announcement will cause!  The IS (information 
>systems) division will be, as they say, DOWNSIZED.  From now on, the 
>IRS must achieve the following:
>
>           . . . shifting the focus of IS management to a
>           business orientation: servicing customers with
>           exponentially increasing technology needs,
>           implementing massive new technology applications
>           on schedule within budget while managing the
>           downsizing of the IS organization
>           (Appendix B. p. 2).
>
>     Do you think that people slaving away in their cubicles, trying to fix 
>the Millennium Bug, will respond favorably to this notice?  "Fix it, and 
>then you're out!"  Mr. Gross knows better.  So, with this amazing 
>document, he calls on private industry to come in and TAKE OVER 
>THE ENTIRE IRS COMPUTER DIVISION.  This is what Mr. Gross 
>calls "a strategic partnership" (p. 1).  The new partners will have to fix 
>the Millennium Bug.  The IRS will give them exactly eight months, start 
>to finish: October 1, 1998 to the end of June, 1999.
>
>                     The IRS's Digital Augean Stables
>
>     Perhaps you have had trouble on occasion getting information from 
>the IRS about your account.  After reading this document, I now know 
>why.   The information is held in what the IRS calls "Master Files" (p. 
>4).  These files are held in the Martinsburg, West Virginia, computer.  
>This computer receives data sent in by 10 regional centers that use a 
>total of 60 separate mainframes.  These mainframes do not talk to each 
>other.  Or, as Mr. Gross puts it, they are part of "an extraordinarily 
>complex array of legacy and stand-alone modernized systems with 
>respect both to connectivity and inoperability between the mainframe 
>platforms and the plethora of distributed systems" (p. 4).  This is 
>bureaucratese, but I do understand the word, INOPERABILITY.
>
>     The tax data build up in the local mainframes for five business days.  
>Then they are uploaded to West Virginia.  This may take up to 10 actual 
>days.  Then the Martinsburg computer sends it all back to the regional 
>computers in the Service Centers.  Then the information is made 
>available to the "Customer Service Representatives" (p. 5), i.e., local tax 
>collectors.  The elapsed time may take two weeks.
>
>     But . . . it turns out that the actual source payment documents are not 


>sent to the Master Files.  Neither is "specific payment or tax 
>information."  This information stays in what the IRS calls 
>STOVEPIPED SYSTEMS, meaning stand-alone data bases "which, for 
>the most part, are not integrated with either the Master Files or the 
>corporate on-line system, IDRS" (p. 5).  Separate tax assessments for the 
>same person can appear in six separate systems, and these do not 
>communicate with each other (p. 5).  "Further, each system generates 
>management reporting information which is not homogeneous, one with 
>the other . . ." (p. 7).  To help us visualize this mess, and much larger 
>messes, the document includes charts.  These charts are so complex that 
>my printer was unable to print out the 116-page document -- probably 
>not enough RAM.  I had to get two other people involved to get one 
>readable copy.
>
>     I have included one of these charts on the back page, just for fun.  Go 


>ahead.  Take a quick look.  No need to get out your magnifying glass 
>just yet.   Then comes the key admission: "These infrastructures are 
>largely not century date compliant . . ." (p. 11).  The phrase "century 
>date compliant" is the government's phrase for Year 2000-compliant.  In 
>other words, THE IRS'S COMPUTERS ARE GOING TO CRASH.  
>Now hear this:
>
>          In addition to three computing centers, (Memphis,
>          Detroit and Martinsburg) the latter of which is a
>          fully operational tax processing center, the IRS
>          deploys a total of sixty mainframes in its ten
>          regional service centers.
>
>          None of the mainframes are compliant, thereby
>          necessitating immediate actions ranging from
>          systems software upgrades to replacement (p. 9).
>
>It gets worse:
>
>          A still greater and far reaching wave of work
>          in the form of the Century Date Project is
>          cascading over the diminishing workforce that
>          is already insufficient to keep pace with the
>          historical levels of workload.  For the Internal
>          Revenue Service, the Century Date Project is
>          uniquely challenging, given the aged and non-
>          century compliant date legacy applications and
>          infrastructure as well as thousands of undocumented
>          applications systems developed by business personnel
>          in the IRS field operations which are resident on
>          distributed infrastructures but not as yet
>          inventoried (p. 13).
>
>     Notice especially two key words: "undocumented" and "inventoried."  
>"Undocumented" means there is no code writer's manual.  They either 
>lost it or they never had it.  "Inventoried" means they know where all of 
>the code is installed.  But it says: "not as yet inventoried."  How much 
>code?  Lots.
>
>          The IS organization has inventoried and scheduled
>          for analysis and conversion, as required, the
>          approximately 62 million lines of computer code
>          comprising the IRS core business systems.  With
>          respect to the business supported field
>          applications and infrastructures, however, we do
>          not know what we do not know.  Until central field
>          systems and infrastructures are completed, the IRS
>          will be unable to analyze, plan, and schedule the
>          field system conversion (p. 13).
>
>     I love this phrase: WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE DO NOT 
>KNOW.  This is surely not bureaucratese.  Now, let's put all of this into 
>a clearer perspective.  The Social Security Administration discovered its 
>y2k problem in 1989.  In 1991, programmers began to work on 
>correcting the agency's 30 million lines of code.  By mid-1996, they had 
>completed repairs on 6 million lines (CIO Magazine, Sept. 15, 1996.)  
>Got that?  It took five years for them to fix 6 million lines.  But the IRS 
>has 62 million lines THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT, but they don't know 
>about the rest.  It's out there, but there is no inventory of it.
>
>     Consider the fact that they have not completed their inventory.  The 
>1996 "California White Paper," which is the y2k guide issued by the IS 
>division of the California state government's y2k repair project, says that 
>inventory constitutes 1% of the overall code repair project.  Awareness 
>is 1%.  So, after you get finished with inventory, YOU HAVE 98% OF 
>YOUR PROJECT AHEAD OF YOU.  Meanwhile, the IRS has not yet 
>completed its inventory.
>
>     The IRS has led the American welfare state into a trap.  The Federal 
>government, like the U.S. economy, will be restructured in the year 
>2000.  Most Americans will be in bankruptcy by 2001, but they will be 
>free.
>
>     Meanwhile, the news media are all a-dither about the Clinton-
>Congress accord on taxes, which will balance the budget in 2002.  As 
>George Gobel used to say, "Suuuuuure it will."  Who is going to collect 
>revenues in 2000?
>
>                   Please Help Get Us Out of This Mess!
>
>     The next section of Mr. Gross's report I find truly unique. When was 
>the last time you read something like this in an agency's report on its 
>own capacity?  (The next time will be the first.)
>
>          THE CHALLENGE: THE INFORMATION SYSTEMS (IS)
>          ORGANIZATION LACKS SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL
>          MANAGEMENT CAPACITY TO SIMULTANEOUSLY 
>          SUPPORT TODAY'S ENVIRONMENT, EFFECTUATE THE 
>          CENTURY DATE CONVERSION AND MANAGE 
>         MODERNIZATION (p. 13).
>
>     This states the IRS's problem clearly: its computer systems are just 
>barely making it now, and the Year 2000 Problem will torpedo them.
>
>          Mr. Gross then announces the IRS's solution: quit.  The IRS has 
>now admitted that "tax administration is its core business" and it will 
>now "shift responsibility for systems development and integration 
>services to the private sector . . ." (p. 54).  But first, it must find some 


>well-heeled partners.   
>
>     "The IRS has acknowledged that its expertise now and in the future 
>is tax administration."  This means that "the IS organization must be 
>rebuilt to preserve the existing environment and partner with the private 
>sector to Modernize the IRS" (p. 13).  I love it when someone capitalizes 
>"Modernize."  Especially when it really means "officially bury."
>
>     Then the coup de grace: "Any reasonable strategy to move forward, 
>therefore, would focus on managing the immediate crisis -- 'stay in 
>business' while building capacity to prepare for future Modernization" 
>(p. 14).  Then comes part 2 of the report:
>
>                         The Next Eighteen Months:
>                          Staying in Business and
>                        Preparing for Modernization
>
>     Mr. Gross knows that there is a deadline, and it isn't 2000.  It's 
>months earlier.  He has selected June, 1999.  Most organizations have 
>selected December, 1998.  This allows a year for testing.  Mr. Gross is 
>more realistic.  He knows late 1998 is too early.  The IRS can't do it.  (I 
>would say that late 2008 is too early.  The IRS has tried to revamp its 
>computer system before.)
>
>     . . . the IRS must undertake and complete major infrastructure 
>initiatives no later than June 1999, to minimally ensure century date 
>compliance for each of its existing mainframes and/or their successor 
>platforms.  At the same time, the IRS must complete the inventory of its 
>field infrastructures as well as develop and exercise a century date 
>compliance plan for the conversion replacement and/or elimination of 
>those infrastructures. (p. 19).
>
>     Then comes an astounding sentence.  This sentence is astounding 
>because it begins with the word, IF.  (Note: RFC stands for Request for 
>Comment.)
>
>     IF THE INFRASTRUCTURE ANALYSIS BECOMES 
>AVAILABLE, UPDATES WILL BE PROVIDED TO POTENTIAL 
>OFFERERS TO ASSIST IN DEVELOPING RESPONSES TO THE 
>RFC.
>
>   If...? IF...?  He is warning all those private firms that he is inviting
>in 
>to clean up the mess that they may not be given the code analysis.  But 
>code analysis constitutes the crucial 15% of any Year 2000 repair job, 
>according to the California White Paper.  Then, and only then, can code 
>revision begin.   
>
>     Meanwhile, the IRS system's code is collapsing even without y2k.  
>The programmers are not able to test all of the new code.  Mr.  Gross 
>calls this "Product Assurance."  This division, he says, has "sunk to 
>staffing levels less than 30 percent of the minimum industry standard . . 
>. ."  This makes it "one of the highest priorities within the IS 
>organization, given that, today, major tax systems are not subjected to 
>comprehensive testing prior to being migrated to production" (p. 15).  In 
>short, Congress passes new tax code legislation, and the IRS 
>programmers implement these changes WITHOUT TESTING THE 
>NEW CODE.  Now comes y2k.  As he says, "the Century Date 
>Conversion will place an extraordinary additional burden on the Product 
>Assurance Program."  I don't want to bore you, but when I find the most 
>amazing government document I've ever seen, I just can't stop.  Neither 
>could Mr. Gross:
>
>     Regrettably, the challenge is far more overarching: to modernize 
>functioning but aged legacy systems which have been nearly irreparably 
>overlaid by and interfaced with a tangle of stovepiped distributed 
>applications systems and networked infrastructures (p. 55).
>
>     I'll summarize.  The IRS has got bad code on 63 aging mainframe 
>systems, plus micros.  It has lost some of the code manuals.  It does not 
>know how much code it has.  It must now move ("migrate") the data 
>from these y2k noncompliant computers -- data stored in legacy 
>programs that are not y2k compliant -- to new computers with new 
>programs.  These computers must interact with each other, unlike 
>today's system.  Bear in mind that some of this code -- I have seen 
>estimates as high as 30% -- is written in Assembler language, which is 
>not understood by most programmers today: perhaps 50,000 of them, 
>worldwide (Cory Hamasaki's estimate).  Then everything must be tested, 
>side by side, old system vs. new system, on mainframe computers, before 
>anyone can trust anything.  (This assumes that extra mainframes are 
>available, but they aren't.)  Warning:
>
>     Beyond the magnitude of the applications system migration, the 
>complexity and enormity of the date conversion that would be required 
>necessitates careful planning and risk mitigation strategies (e.g., parallel 


>processing).  While the risks inherent in Phase III may be nearly 
>incalculable given the age of the systems, the absence of critical 
>documentation, dependency on Assembler Language Code (ALC) and 
>the inevitable turnover of IRS workforce supporting these systems, it is 
>essential to plan and execute the conversion of the Master Files and its 
>related suite of applications (p. 30).
>
>     I'll say it's essential!  The key question is: Is it possible?  No.
>
>     Can you believe this sentence?  "The risks inherent in Phase III may 
>be nearly incalculable . . ."  What does he mean, "may be"?  They ARE.
>
>     Meanwhile, Congress keeps changing the Internal Revenue Code.  
>This creates a programming nightmare: coding the new laws.  So, how 
>big is this project?  Here is how Mr. Gross describes it: "Modernization 
>is the single largest systems integration undertaking in world eclipsing 
>in breadth and depth any previous efforts of either the public or private 
>sector.  Given the fluid nature of the Nation's Tax Laws, Modernization 
>is likely to be the most dynamic, creating even greater complexity and, 
>in turn, compounding the risks" (p. 54).  Many, many risks.
>
>     Two questions arise: (1) Who is going to fix it?  (2) At what price?  
>The answer?  He has no answer.  All he knows is that this project is so 
>huge that NORMAL COMPETITIVE BIDDING WILL NOT WORK.  
>For this project, the IRS is not saying what its "partners" will be paid.  
>It's open for negotiation.
>
>     You may be thinking: "Boondoggle."  I'm thinking: "Legal liability 
>in 2000 larger than any company's board of directors would rationally 
>want to risk, unless they think Congress will pass a no-liability law in 
>2000."  Here is Mr. Gross's description of the special arrangement.  Pay 
>close attention to the words "competitive process."  He bold faces them; I 
>do, too.
>
>     Our challenge, therefore, is to FORGE A BUSINESS PLAN AND
>     PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP in accordance with federal
>     governmental procurement laws and regulations ABSENT THE
>     TRADITIONAL LEVEL OF DETAILED REQUIREMENTS 
>     TYPICALLY ESTABLISHED AS THE BASIS OF THE 
>     COMPETITIVE PROCESS (p. 60).
>
>     He calls on businesses to create a "DETAILED SYSTEMS 
>DEVELOPMENT PLAN" (p. 60).  He goes on: "In general, the IRS 
>seeks to create a business plan which: Shares risk with the private 
>sector; Incents [incents???!!!] the private sector to either share or 
>assume the 'front end' capital investment . . ." (p. 60).  Read it again.  
>Yes, it really says that.  THE IRS WANTS THE PRIVATE SECTOR 
>TO PUT UP MOST OR ALL OF THE MONEY TO FIX ITS ENTIRE 
>SYSTEM.
>
>     This is why the minimum requirement for a company to make a bid 
>is $200 million in working capital.  It has to have experience in 
>computers.  It must be able to repair 5 million lines of code (p. 70).
>
>     How complex is this job?  The complexity is mind-boggling: a seven-
>volume "Modernization Blueprint."  To buy it on paper costs $465, or 
>you can get a copy on a free CD-ROM.  Needless to say, I got the CD-
>ROM.
>
>     So, you think, at least the IRS is getting on top of this problem.  
>Suuuuure, it is.  The contract award date is [let's hear a drum roll, 
>please]: October 1, 1998 (p. 73).  How realistic is this?  You may 
>remember Mr. Gross's deadline: June 1999.  So, he expects these firms 
>to be able to fix 62 million lines of noncompliant code, if they can find 
>the missing code in the field offices, even though the IRS has lost the 
>documentation for some of this code, in an eight-month window of 
>productivity.  Social Security isn't compliant after seven years of work 
>on less than half the IRS's number of lines of code.
>
>     The IRS is facing a complete breakdown.  Its staff can't fix the code.  


>The IRS wants private firms to pay for the upgrade and manage the 
>computer systems from now on.  It does not know how much code it has.  
>It does not have manuals for all of the old code.  It does not even know 
>how to pay the firms that get the contracts: either by "contractually 
>agreed upon fees" or "pursuant to measurable outcomes of the 
>implemented systems" (p. 61).  It has called for very large and 
>experienced firms to submit comments by October 1, 1997.
>
>     In short, the IRS does not know what it is doing, let alone what it has 


>to do.  It only knows that it has to find a few suckers in private industry 
>to bear the costs of implementing a new, improved IRS computer system 
>and then assume responsibility for getting it Year 2000-compliant 
>between October 1, 1998 and the end of June 1999.  ("There's one born 
>every minute.")  Here are 12 companies that have expressed interest: 
>Anderson Consulting, Computer Sciences Corporation, EDS 
>Government Services (EDS is not itself y2k compliant), GTE 
>Government Systems, Hughes Information Technology Systems, IBM, 
>Litton PRC, Lockheed Martin Corporation, Northrup Grumman 
>Corporation, Ratheon E-Systems, Tracor Information Systems 
>Company, and TRW.  The list is posted at:               
>
>http://www.ustreas.gov/treasury/bureaus/irs/prime/interest.htm    
>
>                                Conclusion
>
>     It's all over but the shouting.  The IRS is going bye-bye.  
>Accompanying it will be the political career of Mr. Gingrich and the 
>historical reputation of Mr. Clinton.  Bill Clinton will be remembered as 
>the President on whose watch the Federal government shut down and 
>stayed shut down.  First Mate Newt will try to avoid going down with 
>the ship of state, but he won't make it.  And as for Al Gore . . . .  Well, 
>maybe he can get a job herding cattle on the Texas ranch of his ex-
>roommate at Harvard, Tommy Lee Jones.  Think of it: not "Gore in 
>2000," but GORED IN 2000.  Mr. Information Highway will hit a dead 
>end.
>
>     On June 30, 1999, the IRS will know that its computers are still 
>noncompliant.  On the next day, July 1, fiscal year 2000 rolls over on 
>the Federal government's computers and on every state government's 
>computer that has not rolled over (and shut down) on a bi-annual basis 
>on July 1, 1998.  Almost every state: about half a dozen will roll over on 
>October 1, 1999.
>
>     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world -- 
>assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The 
>public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S. 
>GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to 
>collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks 
>and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider 
>how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.  
>Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.
>
>
>
>
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- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo at world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: Jack Doolin 


------- End of Forwarded Message






From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Sep 15 11:57:59 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Elliptic Curve library for visual basic
Message-ID: <199709151854.LAA10149@proxy3.ba.best.com>


http://www.jim.com/jamesd/tools.htm

An OLE extension to visual basic, providing elliptic curve
cryptographic operations and true random numbers.

This was written for my own purposes. I wrote it because 
visual basic is the by far the fastest way of creating a 
certain kind of program with a reasonably acceptable user 
interface. However I believe it will be generally useful 
to anyone who wishes to create a cryptographic program that
manages a database, or who merely wants to get a cryptographic 
program with an attractive user interface up quickly. 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






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From: verify at nytimes.com (New York Times subscription robot)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:29:20 +0800
Subject: Welcome to The New York Times on the Web
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From fnorky at geocities.com  Sun Sep 14 21:48:38 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:48:38 +0800
Subject: in defense of Lon Horiuchi
In-Reply-To: <199709120843.KAA01441@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <341fac67.107911571@mail.geocities.com>



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:19:30 -0600, you wrote:
[snip]
>  How about we divvy up the duties of teaching these young,
>inexperienced readers the truths of life.
>  You teach them how to say "Heil Hitler!" and we'll teach them
>how to say "Lock and Load!" Their future is going to be mighty
>dim if they don't know how to say one or the other.
>
>TruthMonger
>

I fear it will be a dim future if they must learn those phrases as
well.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From fnorky at geocities.com  Sun Sep 14 21:52:25 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:52:25 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3421b157.109175885@mail.geocities.com>



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:11:18 -0700, you wrote:

>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>think) why crypto is important?
>
>When I walk through South-of-Market in San Francisco and hear people
>trading URL in conversation as the walk down the street and see URLs on TV,
>Billboards and even the side of busses, I wonder if this assumption is
>really true.
>

A lot of these are the same people who think nothing of giving their
Credit Card numbers over the phone.  Or use the word "SECRET" for a
password.  Until they get burned, they don't think about the problem.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From fnorky at geocities.com  Sun Sep 14 21:55:36 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:55:36 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3422b46b.109964168@mail.geocities.com>



On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:38:30 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>So I'm reading through the 43-page amendment to SAFE that the House
>Intelligence committee approved today. It includes: 
>
>* Ban on sale of crypto without a backdoor. Five year & fine (maybe
>$250,000?) if violated. Prosecutions can be held in closed-door
>courtrooms, publishers of info about case to be held in contempt of court.
>
>* Federal government computer purchases must use key escrow "immediate
>decryption" after 1998. Same with network established w/Federal funds.
>
>* Such products can be labeled "authorized for sale to U.S. government"
>
>* U.S. government may "not mandate the use of encryption standards" for
>the private sector
>
>* Export decisions aren't subject to judicial review
>
>* Defense & Commerce have controls of exports of crypto
>
>* Establishes Encryption Industry and Information Security Board
>
>* Internet providers, key recovery centers aren't liable if they turn over
>keys following legal standards
>
>* President can negotiate int'l agreements, perhaps punish noncompliant
>governments
>
>I'm still reading... More details shortly...
>
>-Declan
>

How can a law, or how it is applied be exempt from judicial review?
If I understand the first amendment correctly, this is not legal.

AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

Article III, section 2 of the Constitution states:

1. ***The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity,
arising under this constitution, the laws of the United States, and
treaties made, or which shall be made under their authority***; to all
cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls; to
all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; to controversies
to which the United States shall be a party; [to controversies between
two or more states, between a state and citizens of another state,
between citizens of different states, between citizens of the same
state, claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a
state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or
subjects.]

The 11th Amendment didn't change the part between the *'s.

If this is correct, any law that Congress would make that prevented me
from seeking judicial review would be unconstitutional.

-Doug


-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From fnorky at geocities.com  Sun Sep 14 22:08:00 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:08:00 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:07:45 -0700, you wrote:

>At 9:13 AM -0700 9/12/97, Glenn Hauman wrote:
>>At 1:42 AM -0400 9/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>>>At 10:05 PM -0700 9/11/97, James S. Tyre wrote:
>>>
>>>>So, the last rhetorical question -- how do you convince someone who's
>>>>never used a browser (the vast majority of the voting populace, I'd
>>>>think) why crypto is important?
>>>
>>>This is back to where we were four and a half years ago, when Clipper was
>>>dropped on us. "How do we educate the users?"
>>>
>>>Trust me, it's a hopeless task. We don't have the advertising budgets, the
>>>staff for education, etc.
>>>
>>>And it ain't our responsibility to "save" the sheeple.
>>
>>True, but if it's war, we gotta get more troops. I don't want to save them,
>>I want more troops on my side.
>>
>>Education is good. Exploiting FUD is probably better. (DoJ's learned
>>something from dealing with Microsoft.) Luckily, it ain't that hard to whip
>>up Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt against the US Government.
>
>Fair enough. If you can launch an education program, well and good.
>
>I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with
>Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally thousands of
>suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts,
>gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v.
>producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so on.
>All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?
>
>As Lucky Green just said, "Cypherpunks write code."
>
>(This can be either direct code, or memetic code, or things related to
>getting actual technological changes distributed. What Cypherpunks _don't_
>do is try to play the Beltway game that Jerry Berman and his ilk play  (so
>poorly, for our issues), or to try to play the Hollywood and Madison Avenue
>games of swaying popular opinion.)
>
>--Tim May
>

Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.

Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From fnorky at geocities.com  Sun Sep 14 22:22:16 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:22:16 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <341da930.107088978@mail.geocities.com>



On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:28:27 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>	WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh today declared his
>agency "in great shape" despite a recent spate of public relations
>embarrassments and said he has no plans to step down from his job.
[large snip]
>	The FBI will continue to stand behind Lon Horiuchi, an FBI
>sharpshooter charged last month by local authorities with involuntary
>manslaughter for the shooting death of Vicky Weaver, wife of white
>supremacist Randy Weaver, during a deadly standoff in Idaho, Freeh said.

Declan, just an observation, but have you noticed that the media seems
to incapable of saying the name Randy Weaver without using the words
white supremacist (or separatist)?  Do you think this is deliberate or
just a case of following a pattern set by others?

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From frantz at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 23:16:47 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:16:47 +0800
Subject: Ship Code!  Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912154309.035b0a18@panix.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:18 AM -0700 9/13/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>On the other hand, PGP 5.0 has a perfectly usable GAK feature,
>not that the Fedz would approve it.  It's the "Always encrypt to default key",
>which is primarily intended for keeping copies in a form you can read later,
>but would work just as well with the FBI key instead.

Making the FBI key an immediate target for (1) Distributed factoring; (2)
Stealing by hook, crook or bribery; or (3) Destruction of the coresponding
secret key by some cypherliberty nut. :-)  (1) and (2) would blow any
secrets encrypted with the system.  (3) would only stop GAK until new keys
could be rammed down people's throats.  My bet would be (2).  Aldrich Ames
wasn't the only spy in the world.  If the FBI is monitoring phone calls set
up with DH key agreement, they are going to need to access that secret key
quite frequently.  It will be very hard to protect it under those
circumstances.

An encrypt to FBI key system has some really serious vulnerabilities.  I
scares me to have our financial system, utilities, and airlines, to name
just a few vital civilian services, depend on a system with such an obvious
flaw.  There are people and organizations out there who would love to
disrupt these systems, and flawed encryption would give them a powerful
tool.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From frantz at netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 23:17:07 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:17:07 +0800
Subject: Letter to Senator Bryan, was Re: Key Recovery is Bad for US Security
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970905103052.00700338@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:40 AM -0700 9/13/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>Bill, I hope you don't mind me basing my letter on yours.

Not at all.  One of the reasons I posted it.

While it might have been better if we had not followed the legalization of
exports root, I think letting representatives know that voting for the
surveillance society has political costs is probably our best strategy for
having the whole thing disappear in the rush to adjourn.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sun Sep 14 23:53:58 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:53:58 +0800
Subject: IRS tax reform y2k style
In-Reply-To: <199709150346.UAA18593@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914233638.006877dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:46 PM 9/14/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>Gary North has been predicting apocalypse on the y2k subject
>for awhile. but he has a lot of data to back his claims.
>this talks about the IRS computers and predicts they're going
>to collapse.

Gary North has been predicting apocalypse on whatever subject
would sell investment newsletters for 20 years or more.
But, hey, if the IRS does collapse from Millenial troubles, fine by me :-)

I couldn't find a PGP key that would decrypt the signature -
was it vznuri's, jackdoolin's, or Gary North's ?

The Y2K problem is largely hype, but the machines that will
suffer from it most aren't just the old C0B0L-burning dinosaurs -
it's the PCs on the desktops; even some of them made in 1997 will
probably need at least new BIOS PROMs to keep up to date.

Some number of years ago, the Treasury Department put out an
RFP for a bunch of computers and networks.  The RFP was a shade clueless,
wanting things like C2 security certification when there were only
a few B-level systems and one C-level system out there,
and Red Book security was still a research topic inconsistent with
the requirement for GOSIP networking compliance.
The winning team, from AT&T, bid a bunch of servers (Pyramid MIPS-2000-
based?)
and blazingly fast 386/25 machines, and was immediately thrown into
three years of litigation because they were selected not for lowest cost
but for best technology.  By the time the courts were done,
and they could actually start implementing the job, the red-hot 386/25
was now pretty lukewarm, but a lot easier to provide at a decent profit 
margin :-)

I don't know if what they provided was the same as the AT&T 6386/25 on my 
desk,
but neither that machine nor the Pentium-75 laptop I'm typing on now
does the right thing when you set the clock to 12/31/99 11:59:59 and wait.
The IRS has probably bought some newer machines since then,
but I'd be surprised if they're _all_ fixed.  Or mostly fixed.

Bitrot is cool -- heh heh -- heh heh -- bitrot, yeah.
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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep 15 00:01:00 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:01:00 +0800
Subject: Escrow system design query
In-Reply-To: <01INNGT441W0AKTJ63@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970914235357.00694e4c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:03 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Michael Wilson wrote:
>Does anyone know of a solid document out there in the web that actually
>describes the proposed key escrow backbone network?  After wading through
>considerable junk in the search engines (my, but the net is wordy on the
>topic), I didn't turn up anything that looked like architecture.

Back during Clipper, there was, if not an actual design for an escrow system,
at least a bunch of fabrication intended to add verisimilitude to an 
otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.  The amount of framework it would
take to do an escrow system capable of handling every key from Verisign
and Netscape is substantially beyond anything anyone was really funded for;
much easier to do the job for a few thousand Clipperphones, and build 
infrastructure as sales pick up.  Building an infrastructure for a system
that has keys generated by users, by the millions, is much harder than 
building one for a small centralized system.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNBzbhPthU5e7emAFAQHsPgH+JE0gNX6X0/17Xec0Y1w5l4RW5G3l6aYH
/kBJJt4K7W+mdEheqC/ssHdrwniKVehrTI/Q4/wiXVzHiyqIHXtMTA==
=cram
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From frantz at netcom.com  Mon Sep 15 00:07:25 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:07:25 +0800
Subject: Federal motivation
In-Reply-To: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 6:54 PM -0700 9/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:
>Remember, the Martin Luther King who was thrown in jail in Alabama
>in the early 1960's was the same Martin Luther Kings who received
>the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later, and who was killed for
>his revolutionary activities just a few years after that. Whether
>he was a hero or villian depends on who writes the history book
>and it is, ultimately, our responsibility to make sure that many,
>conflicting, history books can be written.

Most particularly remember that the director-for-life of the FBI used
telephone intercepts in an attempt to get this Martin Luther King to commit
suicide.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From shamrock at netcom.com  Mon Sep 15 00:10:06 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:10:06 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970914235145.0073d63c@netcom10.netcom.com>



At 04:36 AM 9/15/97 GMT, Douglas L. Peterson wrote:
>Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
>too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
>many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
>
>Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

Write better code.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep 15 00:35:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:35:03 +0800
Subject: NoneRe: TAMPERPROOFING OF CHIP CARDS
In-Reply-To: <199709120311.XAA10259@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <199709150725.JAA00859@basement.replay.com>



One other option for non-destructive reverse engineering is to drive Vcc
with high frequency AC and measure the resonant frequencies on the chip. 
(Same is true for the ground pins, but this is complicated because the
substrate is often grounded and introduces a large capacitance) 

This produces a general `map' of the chip, although many of the
frequencies will overlap and be indistinguishable.  To remove the unwanted
noise, it is necessary to damp out the parts of the chip that you're not
interested in.  There are a variety of ways to do this but the one of the
easiest is with the magnetoresistance effect.  Disk drive rw heads work
well for this. (it's usually better to magnetize the whole chip and then
unmagnetize the part you want to look at.) 

Input pins are most likely connected to an insulated gate, but this will
act like a capacitor, allowing ac into the channel, so we can probe these
to see where they go.  Newer chips have filters on the inputs which makes
this more difficult. 

once you have selected a target area, turn on the transistor(s) by any of
the usual methods (uv light, electron beam, external e-field...if you're
poor you could try pumping the substrate to induce latch-up, though this
isn't very `selective' in what it turns on) 

Two main problems with this techinque:  One is that the relevant
resonances are on the order of 10-100 GHz.  Obviously you are not just
going to plug that into your average scope and expect it to work.  The
usual advice is to maintain a reference oscillator and measure the
interference with respect to your `probe'.  If you have access to some of
the newer GaAs amps, you can modulate the signals and then measure the
lower sideband. 

The other problem is the finite resolution (even if you have a really good
magnetic head you just can't get close enough to the surface without
destuctive techniques.)  To a large degree, you have to `brute force'
guess, and see what model best fits the data.  I shouldn't have to explain
the details of this technique to a group of cryptographers. 






From tjunker at mail.phoenix.net  Mon Sep 15 00:37:37 1997
From: tjunker at mail.phoenix.net (Thomas Junker)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:37:37 +0800
Subject: Federal motivation
In-Reply-To: <199709150051.CAA25392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709150716.CAA16258@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>



On 14 Sep 97 at 18:54, Martin Minow wrote:

> Anonymous, signing as Monty Cantsin, [wrote]:

> >Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
> >they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
> >they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
> >list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
> >appear to be "legitimate".

> Sorry, it isn't obvious to me. The most paranoid I can work myself
> up to is to assume that some (not all) of our leaders want to restore
> their half-remembered 1950's Dick-and-Jane, big car, Eisenhauer suburbian
> childhood...

And I think that a tremendous obstacle here is a fairly widespread 
and definitely human tendency to ascribe innocent or misguided 
motivation to what are, objectively, consummately *evil* deeds. 
Those are not bumpkins up there in Congress. Some may question their 
IQs but of those congresscritters are crafty lawyers. The few who 
aren't lawyers are just crafty. That's how they got there and 
that's how they build their power and wealth bases once there, in 
jobs that don't pay enough to make any honest person rich.

> The new cryptography makes the Internet safe for child pornographers,
> for revolutionaries, for criminals, 

Virtually any resource one could name could be similarly demonized, 
as the beleaguered gun owners well know. Criminals enjoy safe and 
comfortable transportation by car, bus, train and jetliner. They 
sustain their mortal coils with food. They breathe air. Anything 
that is commonly used or useful can be said to nurture, further, 
encourage or protect the criminal element.  

The logical response is, "So what?"  

The emotional, PR knee-jerk reaction of a public only superficially
involved with anything outside the confines of their complicated
little sitcom-and-sports lives is to nod in robotic agreement and
sit still while breathing permits are passed into law, to be revoked
only when one of those nasty, awful bad guys uses air in furtherance 
of a political crime. By the time breathing permits are routinely 
revoked for expired car tags Joe Lunchbucket is in way over his head.

This stuff is serious. This pattern is not new -- it is just new
*here*, a development of the last 20 years. Similar slippery slopes
have been traveled in other countries, in other times. These times
are getting way too interesting for comfort. 

TJ

|              Sign up now for the               |
|          Cypherpunks Retirement Plan           |
| Provided free of charge by the U.S. Government |
|           Open Enrollment has begun            |






From dtrende at bw.edu  Mon Sep 15 00:52:41 1997
From: dtrende at bw.edu (dtrende at bw.edu)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:52:41 +0800
Subject: Club Pix
Message-ID: <199709150732.HAA55250@out2.ibm.net>



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From stevey at webmedia.com  Mon Sep 15 01:40:12 1997
From: stevey at webmedia.com (Steve Mynott)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:40:12 +0800
Subject: Digested version?
Message-ID: <341CF1B5.AA32B70E@webmedia.com>



Is there a digested version of this list available?

-- 
Steve Mynott, work: http://webmedia.com/ +44 171 317 1341         ---- 
strange: http://machine-elves.com/    mobile: 0956 265761        | \_|_\
pegwit v8 public key = \                                         |_|_| |
cbecf90546ea12b28de9e6fdbb956ee8cf83bbcd63726a93643f44a474acdfb9  \|__\|






From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Mon Sep 15 01:48:27 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Apache)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:48:27 +0800
Subject: Mandatory Voluntary Cencorship in OZ
Message-ID: <199709150838.SAA18421@bear.apana.org.au>



full text at:
http://www.australian.aust.com/archive/15-Sep/n01.htm

Howard moves to censor secrets
By defence writer DON GREENLEES

September 15: The Federal Government is renewing efforts to protect
national defence and intelligence secrets under a revived system of
media censorship.

Cabinet's National Security Committee decided early this month to
start talks with media executives on voluntary censorship and backed
away from threats by the former government to impose $1 million
($US723,000) fines over publication of official secrets.

But the Government will put the onus on the media to make voluntary
censorship work or ultimately face legislation that would impose huge
fines for disclosure of sensitive military and intelligence
information.

It comes almost two years after the Labor government reached an
impasse with media executives over a proposal for a "voluntary" system
backed by $1 million fines for a prohibited broadcast or publication.

The move followed revelations by disaffected former Australian Secret
Intelligence Service agents of spying operations and about the bugging
by Australian intelligence of foreign embassies, including China's and
Japan's.

Senior sources said the six-member Cabinet security committee, chaired
by John Howard, had decided to take a more conciliatory line than the
former government by first trying a genuinely voluntary system to
maximise the chances of winning media agreement.







From arunas at post1.com  Mon Sep 15 02:15:27 1997
From: arunas at post1.com (Arunas Norvaisa)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:15:27 +0800
Subject: none
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915120735.030dfc5c@post1.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12:09 AM 97.09.14 -0700, SL Baur wrote (and I quoted):
>
>bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  writes:
>
>> Since Sept. 11th:
>
>> http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
>
>> Forbidden
>
>> Your client is not allowed to access the requested object. 
>
>Something is seriously wrong with the ifi.uio.no server.  You can't get
>much of anything off of it.  I doubt the general outage is pgp related,
>this isn't the first time there have been problems with it.
>
>

Try this one instead......

http://zone.pspt.fi/pgp/


- --
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
check the message headers for PGP key information _OR_
send mail with subject 'send key' to mailto:arunas at post1.com
PGP for idiots page 
and a US mirror site 
IBM: I'm Beyond Mistakes


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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
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JZIBoUM64INh19UsEGolNzPUOAB5GWqO/bB5WbIXHCoong==
=83mA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 15 03:19:56 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:19:56 +0800
Subject: Ignore
Message-ID: 



Gag test. Ignore.










From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep 15 05:02:56 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:02:56 +0800
Subject: Report on Privacy Loss
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970915114138.0081b958@pop.pipeline.com>



NYT has a front page special report today on the booming
computer investigative industry which is using legal and
illegal means to mine and peddle personal, corporate and
political data, dirt and damaging secrets. As one nabbed
dick says, it's no longer ex-intel and ex-feebs who are
doing it, now the techies and beagles of all sorts have 
rubbed their eyes at the amazing golddust on their screens. 

It might boost the demand for crypto and other essential
tools for privacy, or it may just lead to more cyber-TLAs 
and -bounties willfully busting the wrong Jim Bells while 
warning their still-connected buddies of "court-okayed" 
wiretaps and traps.

  http://www.nytimes.com






From Mzxyteq at ibm.net  Mon Sep 15 20:08:21 1997
From: Mzxyteq at ibm.net (Mzxyteq at ibm.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Free" Gift!
Message-ID: <199709160307.DAA142908@out1.ibm.net>


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From declan at pathfinder.com  Mon Sep 15 05:38:07 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:38:07 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970915030641.1770.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



John,

You don't understand the dynamic. At the NatSec hearing last week, there
were two dozen cosponsors on the committee. But all but one voted to gut
the bill. Many others said they were hoodwinked into signing on.

The tide is changing.

-Declan



On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:

> Declan McCullagh :
> 
> >By late September, the Commerce committee will vote on SAFE. By
> >mid-October, the committee chairs should have worked out a compromise
> >package. This goes to the Rules committee, chaired by Solomon. Until 
> last
> >week he vowed to block SAFE. Now he'd like, I'm told, to get the FBI's
> >version to the floor immediately. There are, however, only so many 
> slots
> >on the suspension calendar.
> 
> The thing I still don't understand is why anyone thinks the house
> will support the new bill.  There were hundreds of co-sponsors for
> SAFE in its original form.  The modified version is exactly the
> opposite of the original SAFE.  So it seems like a majority of house
> members should oppose the bill.
> 
> "John
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 






From brianbr at together.net  Mon Sep 15 05:53:42 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:53:42 +0800
Subject: Freeh says FBI doing great, supports Weaver killer
Message-ID: <199709151241.IAA01507@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/15/97 12:36 AM, Douglas L. Peterson (fnorky at geocities.com) 
passed this wisdom:

>Declan, just an observation, but have you noticed that the media
seems
>to incapable of saying the name Randy Weaver without using the words
>white supremacist (or separatist)?  Do you think this is deliberate
or
>just a case of following a pattern set by others?

Randy Weaver maybe wasn't the most politically correct citizen of the
state, but the whole thing that got him in trouble was that they
wanted him to spy on the white supremacists that lived up in the hills
near him and he refused. He had a 'live and let live' attitude about
the whole thing. So far as I have read he wasn't an active white
supremacist so much as he wouldn't come out against them ... now maybe
other evidence has been unearthed since the last time I looked into
the matter in any detail, but that is how I read it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNB0sxcdZgC62U/gIEQJ+QQCg5/35nA58vcGCw0RwEdFQ7xGgpegAn0vZ
+5bb/FWbCNOSZgUzsZHOTza5
=6QIX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
     For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
       "Home is where your books are" --	Kitty O'Neal







From brianbr at together.net  Mon Sep 15 05:56:37 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:56:37 +0800
Subject: Ship Code!  Re: House Intelligence Committee Press Release
Message-ID: <199709151244.IAA01417@mx01.together.net>



On 9/15/97 1:14 AM, Bill Frantz (frantz at netcom.com)  passed this wisdom:

>An encrypt to FBI key system has some really serious 
>vulnerabilities. I scares me to have our financial system, 
>utilities, and airlines, to name just a few vital civilian 
>services, depend on a system with such an obviousflaw. There are 
>people and organizations out there who would love to disrupt these 
>systems, and flawed encryption would give them a powerful tool. 

 ... not the least of which is that the computing horsepower to look at 
each and every message (ya never know; a naked picture of my dog my get 
through) and do even the barest of evaluations on it would swamp the 
system. By way of barest evaluation, just examining the To and From 
fields to see if one of them is on *the list* of suspicious persons.


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
       For PGP Keys -  Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key"
 	"When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is 
     time to reform."	-- Mark Twain







From declan at well.com  Mon Sep 15 06:14:53 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:14:53 +0800
Subject: EPIC and PI Charge US Violates Intl Crypto Agreement
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:57:11 +0100
From: Dave Banisar 
Subject: EPIC and PI Charge US Violates Intl Crypto Agreement

Press Release.

Privacy Groups Criticize United States Crypto Policy.

Charge US Violation of International Agreement.


Brussels - Two leading privacy organizations said today that the United
States cryptography policy violates an international agreement reached
earlier this year by more than two dozen countries at the Organization for
Economic Cooperation and Development.

The Electronic Privacy Information Center and Privacy International said
that recent legislative proposals introduced in the United States to
establish controls on the use of data scrambling technology are contrary to
the principles adopted by the OECD and should be withdrawn.

Marc Rotenberg, the director of EPIC and a member of the expert panel that
drafted the guidelines, said that "the OECD framework is based on the
voluntary, market-driven development of encryption products and services.
The Guidelines emphasize the importance of privacy protection and the need
for careful assessment of any key escrow proposal. Their  were specifically
intended to remove technical and legal obstacles to the use of
cryptography. But the US policy now points in exactly  the opposite
direction -- extensive government regulation, little regard for privacy,
and the rapid development of key escrow techniques regardless of the
consequences."

Mr. Rotenberg said that the OECD member countries considered and explicitly
rejected the US recommendation that cryptography policy be based on law
enforcement access to private communications. "That proposal was turned
down by the OECD member countries. The United States accepted the judgment
of the OECD and endorsed the final recommendations. The U.S. should now
honor its commitment," said Mr. Rotenberg.

Simon Davies, Director General of Privacy International, said "The rush to
encourage technologies for communications surveillance comes at exactly the
wrong time. Illegal wiretapping is on the rise around the world.
Dissidents, political opponents, journalists, and human rights organizers
are most often the targets."

The current issue of the International Privacy Bulletin includes a review
of worldwide privacy abuses in 1996. Electronic surveillance features
prominently in the report. The review is based on "The Country Reports for
Human Rights Practices," prepared annually by the U.S. State Department.

Mr. Rotenberg and Mr. Davies said that the U.S. policy now stands as the
single greatest barrier to the development of tools to protect privacy and
security on the Internet.

The statement was made at a conference this week in Belgium, hosted by
Privacy International and EPIC, on "Cryptography and the Internet:
Developing Privacy and Security Policy for the European Information
Society."  Participants from more than twenty countries attended the event.

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a civil liberties
organizations, based in Washington, DC. Privacy International is a human
rights organization concerned with privacy, surveillance and data
protection issues worldwide. It is based in London. Both organizations are
members of the Global Internat Liberty Campaign.

WEB RESOURCES

 o EPIC [http://www.epic.org/]
 o Privacy International [http://www.privacy.org/pi/]
 o Global Internet Liberty Campaign [http://www.gilc.org/]
 o Brussels Cryptography Conference
      [http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/]
 o OECD Cryptography Policy Guidelines
      [http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html]

CONTACT (15-17 September)

 Marc Rotenberg, EPIC (Brussels +32 2 227 05 05, voicemail +1 202 298 0824)
 Simon Davies, PI (Brussels +32 2 513 29 73)







From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 15 06:19:05 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:19:05 +0800
Subject: GAK will probably be economically impossible
In-Reply-To: <01INNGT441W0AKTJ63@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:53 am -0400 on 9/15/97, Bill Stewart wrote:


> Building an infrastructure for a system
> that has keys generated by users, by the millions, is much harder than
> building one for a small centralized system.

Which is why I now believe that GAK, of any form, is doomed. It's
economically impossible.

For instance, it will be much cheaper to double encrypt to a corporate key
ala PGP than to escrow, and so the government may require access to those
keys instead. However, even then the cost of key management -- especially
for communications -- will choke any attempt to manage duplicate-encryption
keys as well. Probably for all but a few kinds of files, like those kept by
the people at the tops large hierarchical organizations. The government,
say? :-).


Those few files the government will be able to decrypt will provide a basis
for claims of their plan's efficacy, of course, just like noise-level
"examples" of welfare helping someone as "proof" of economic efficacy for
the welfare state allowed its perpetuation for so many years. But you
cannot ignore reality forever, as Britain discovered with welfare almost 15
years ago, and we're only now figuring out for ourselves in the US. Even
totalitarianism cannot ignore economic reality, as Russia and China have
shown us.

Not that capitalism equals freedom, of course, but there can be a sizeable
correlation, particularly when your average business is a small one. :-).


However, I think that in the case of GAK, this act of totalitarianism is
economically impossible. If GAK's implemented, people may get hurt before
it finally goes away, but it eventually won't be useful for much from a
national security prospective, and its maintenance costs will eventually
choke it.

Actually, it's probably not possible to make even the prototypes physically
practicable, much less economically so, even if Washington does pass a law
mandating their existence. It would be like passing the 1963 law which
formed Comsat, in, say, 1933. Particularly if the use of strong
cryptography continues it's exponential increase.

That's because the primary economic benefit for deploying the strongest
possible cryptography still remains. You can't do business over the
internet without it.

(It has been this central fact which keeps me interested in cryptography
and the cypherpunks list in particular, and my conversion over time to a
cryptoanarchic world-view has been based on this fact. Oddly enough, I find
most of the philosophic and political arguments on cypherpunks to have a
largely economic component to them at root, which makes sense, because
market reality is just as tangible as physics.  Physical reality dictates
politics and philosophy, and not the other way around.)

Anyway, you can, however, do business over the net without GAK, and since,
I claim, the eventual lowest-cost transaction on the internet will be some
form of anonymous digital bearer certificate, it will never be the case
that GAK is economically necessary, even under the ruse of enforcing
non-repudiation.

In fact, even if all transactions remain book-entry ones, the exploding
total transaction volume and competition to make those transactions
efficient will make GAK economically impossible, because it provides no
tangible benefit to those who use cryptography for business. There's no
economic return on the additional cost.

The cost of anything is the foregone alternative, and the cost of GAK
causes you to forego a lot of money and potential revenue and doesn't buy
you anything in return.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From reiter at research.att.com  Mon Sep 15 06:55:06 1997
From: reiter at research.att.com (Mike Reiter)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:55:06 +0800
Subject: Crowds code NOW AVAILABLE for Unix
Message-ID: <199709151340.JAA14445@cloak.research.att.com>




Crowds is a new system for protecting your anonymity while you browse
the web.  We have recently obtained a release for the code from AT&T 
and have been testing the system with a handful of volunteers.  
Thanks to their efforts, we now feel more prepared to support a larger 
user community.

So, if you are interested in browsing the web with better anonymity
than the Anonymizer, check out

http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds

There are two steps. The first is obtaining the code. After you accept
the license agreement, expect a 24 hour turnaround to receive the code
by e-mail. Second, if you would like to join our crowd, fill out the
registration page, and expect 24 hours before you are admitted. (These
steps can proceed in parallel.)

The system requires Perl 5.003 or higher, and has been tested on
SunOS, Solaris, and Irix.  Our next target is Linux.

- Mike Reiter and Avi Rubin






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Sep 15 07:05:17 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:05:17 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709151350.GAA10842@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 15 Sep 97 6:49:37 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config at nym.alias.net             +#-#*+**+###     3:06  99.98%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        ++**+*******    10:34  99.98%
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             --..-----.--  8:56:54  99.97%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                 *-.--------   4:48:25  99.85%
neva     remailer at neva.org                -*  #*-+--*-    56:05  99.73%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org         -----+-----   3:21:28  99.61%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      .----------   7:16:41  99.59%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          ++++++++++++    29:19  99.34%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             * +++**#**#*     3:52  99.25%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           + ++++++++++    22:45  99.23%
replay   remailer at replay.com                +*****+***     7:01  99.22%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     + _  .-*****  8:48:39  98.63%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -----  ----   3:02:18  98.12%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net            --  - ---   4:04:58  94.27%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   ---- --      12:26:26  73.80%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From geeman at best.com  Mon Sep 15 07:25:16 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:25:16 +0800
Subject: update to crypto legislation page
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.0070c318@best.com>



http://www.best.com/~geeman

has some new links, the text of the new SAFE amendment thank you Declan,
House Comment that includes a couple of strong statement fom Law
Enforcement, the text of the Calif. legislature's statement to Washington ...







From swire.1 at osu.edu  Mon Sep 15 07:39:08 1997
From: swire.1 at osu.edu (Peter Swire)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:39:08 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass
Message-ID: <199709151418.KAA08991@mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu>



At 10:31 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Will Rodger explained his view that:

>>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think 
>the
>>>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>>>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>>>
>>>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that 
>is
>>>highly optimistic.

        In politics, unfortunately, you often have to act *as if* the other
side is going to win soon.  If you don't, they might.

        A great example was the 1986 Tax Reform Act.  Everyone knew that it
was too complicated for Congress to understand.  Everyone knew that there
were lots of powerful opponents to its elimination of many tax loopholes.
But the darn thing passed anyways.  Even supporters were shocked.  The story
is told in a very well-written book, "Showdown in Gucci Gulch."

        When considering what Congress will do, remember that there are
12,000 bills a year introduced in each chamber.  Crypto is only one of many,
many issues the Members of Congress need to consider.  When things get too
complicated, a politician might think it's just easier to go along with law
enforcement.  How many politicians lose by being tough on crime?

        As for the 1996 Telecomm Act, it's a bad example of what's likely to
happen with crypto.  That Act was fought between truly enormous companies --
RBOCS, AT&T, cable, etc.  Those companies had enormous Washington offices
fighting a life and death lobbying battle for years.  In crypto, the good
guys have nothing like the same lobbying resources.  Unlike Telecomm, the
very largest existing companies in the country will not lose billions next
year if a bad crypto bill is passed.

        In short, it is quite possible that nothing will pass before August,
1998.  It is quite possible by then that the issue will seem politically
hot, and thus be dropped so close to an election.  But the FBI position
might win if we don't act *as if* mandatory key escrow is a real possibility.

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1 at osu.edu
http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (revised site now
	includes publications and Internet Privacy Page)






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Mon Sep 15 08:17:07 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:17:07 +0800
Subject: (fwd) IRS Modernization
In-Reply-To: <199709132104.RAA15285@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <97Sep15.110635edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Damaged Justice wrote:

> I just recently read IRS's "Request for Comments (RFC)", which solicits
> comments for modernizing the IRS's tax systems.  This document is the
> first information I've seen that shows just how desperate the IRS is
> and how complex the IRS tax systems are.  Their systems are literally
> incomprehensible.

Where are Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility when you need
them :).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From lwp at mail.msen.com  Mon Sep 15 08:40:45 1997
From: lwp at mail.msen.com (Lou Poppler)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:40:45 +0800
Subject: Some anti-GAK reverse-FUD ?
Message-ID: 



Today's NY Times has a long article about how easily personal information
can be extracted from various kinds of computers and networks. (URL below)
This snippet illustrates nicely one of the dangers of trusting information
to "legitimate" law enforcement.

-- Begin quoted text: --
[...]
In a 1997 New Year's letter to "friends and clients" of Investigative Group
International Inc., one of the best-connected Washington investigative
agencies, the chairman, Terry Lenzner, noted "increasing interest by
clients seeking to protect themselves from negative campaigns," including
those by "so-called 'whistle-blowers,"' unions and regulatory agencies.
[...]
The promotion brochure features veteran investigative reporters who now
work for IGI. Their role adds a new dimension to the long-revolving door
between law enforcement and private investigations.  IGI's staff, for
example, includes former top officials of the Drug Enforcement
Administration, the FBI and Germany's national police force.

Meanwhile, Ray Kelly, who had been chief of police in New York City before
joining IGI to run its New York operations, now heads the Secret Service,
the Bureau of Customs and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Such ties, along with IGI's assignment from the Democratic National
Committee to probe its campaign-finance mess, inspire some critics to liken
it to President Clinton's private CIA -- a characterization that Lenzner,
who was a lawyer for the Senate Watergate committee, vigorously rejects.
[...]

full article is at:
  http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/091597privacy.html







From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Mon Sep 15 08:40:54 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:40:54 +0800
Subject: A Reality Check & the Full Citizenship Campaign
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914080508.00718784@popd.netcruiser>
Message-ID: <97Sep15.113037edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Jonathan Wienke wrote:

> 1. All guns had to be registered. (much of this work was done by Hitler's
> predecessors, but it made his job much easier.)
> 
> 2. Abortion was made available on demand.
> 
> 3. Euthanasia was made available for the terminally ill, then encouraged
> for the elderly and feeble-minded.
> 
> 4. Privately owned guns were confiscated. Freedom of speech and press was
> curtailed.
> 
> 5. Euthanasia gradually began to be applied to Communists, labor union
> organizers, Jews, homosexuals, religious leaders, and anyone else who
> opposed the government, eventually requiring the death camps to process all
> those requiring euthanizatrion.
> 
> Most Germans didn't wake up to the situation until it was too late. Martin
> Neimoller's quote "...and when they came for me, I couldn't say anything,
> because there was nobody left to speak for me" (paraphrased) is one of the
> most damning indictments of the sheeplike tendencies of most people. At
> this time, we are working on steps 3 and 4 in the US.

Worse, they voted for Hitler (who by the way stopped the "Taxi Murders"),
and the legislature voted him emergency powers.  The NAZIs did everything
by a stricty legal process.

The principle was clear but overridden by pragmatism.  From life is sacred
(or inviolable if you don't like religous connotations) to life not worthy
of life.

There were those speaking for principle then, as now, but the divisive
politics said not to listen to them because a government can provide
Utopia if you will just provide them the power.

Faschism is more dangerous than socialism, since it keeps some kind of
ownership in private hands, but has all the controls - consider Hillary's
healthcare plan - doctors and hospitals would still be privately owned.

PGP and RSA will still own the intellectual property under GAK.

> Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it.

I saw a very ironic session on C-SPAN with the Congressional Black Caucus
sponsoring lecturers on victims of police violence.  A few times the crime
of "Driving while Black" was mentioned.  They mentioned this will get
worse as the states move to primary enforcement of seatbelts, but forgot
to mention that the administration is pushing the initiative (they needed
something since 55 was repealed).  Also mentioned was the war on drugs and
a few of the other invasive federal programs.

My question is why the minorities vote to give police arbitrary powers (or
withold funds from the state if they don't), and expect that the police
won't act arbitrarily and mostly against minorities.

> What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
> infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

Another thing I heard was the move to ban small, inexpensive handguns. 
The type mainly bought by women to protect themselves.  I think it was
something brought forward by Feinstein. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 15 08:42:28 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:42:28 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
In-Reply-To: <19970915030641.1770.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915112850.0384fa08@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 12:28 PM 9/15/97 +0000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>John,
>
>You don't understand the dynamic. At the NatSec hearing last week, 
there
>were two dozen cosponsors on the committee. But all but one voted to 
gut
>the bill. Many others said they were hoodwinked into signing on.
>
>The tide is changing.


Jeez, I'm not trying to be contrary John or Declan, but here's my 
view:

The chance that more than a few hyper-busy members of Congress 
actually understand this way-arcane issue is nearing zero. Let's face 
it; many if not most members don't even use a PC. Based on what I've 
heard in hearings and from staffers, my seat-of-the-pants guess is - 
oh - let's say 30 of the 535 members in House and Senate really get 
this.

The rest are doing the best they can with limited information, most 
of the time responding to the last person they heard. Thus, 18 0f 22 
co-sponsors of SAFE went the other way after hearing from the FBI.

It's not so much that people are _changing_ their minds, it's that 
they still don't know enough to make an informed decision. Until the 
last few weeks, crypto never occupied the attention of more than a 
handful of the dozens of committees on the Hill.

Unlike most issues, crypto _is_ rocket science to these folks - as it 
is to just about the entire world.




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNB1UMNZgKT/Hvj9iEQInyQCfUeKWIsTrQX6O94abbhmnyM6BKD4AnRGR
Tj0bmclmRMAAwGvM+t/akiZ/
=oZrk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Will Rodger	                                 Dont' want it printed?
Cyberjournalist                                    Don't let it happen.
Optimist                                        Alles vergangliche ist 
Skeptic                                              nur ein Gleichnis.






From mailhost at aol.com  Mon Sep 15 23:51:13 1997
From: mailhost at aol.com (mailhost at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:51:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make Money With Your PC
Message-ID: <81812982YYZ25037@6050workathome.com>




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From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Mon Sep 15 08:56:21 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:56:21 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Sep15.114111edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>




If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to just
run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes available
there.

My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...

What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
license people to create them.







From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Mon Sep 15 09:46:22 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:46:22 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970914235145.0073d63c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep15.121816edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 04:36 AM 9/15/97 GMT, Douglas L. Peterson wrote:
> >Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
> >too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
> >many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
> >
> >Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> >sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> 
> Write better code.

I can think of many examples of very bad code that is difficult to use but
is very popular, an obvious one is that Apple wrote better code than MS.

Even most sheeple rely on whatever is built in to MSWord or Excel than on
PGP, so on that basis there is *NO* existing example of such code.

So, not only do cypherpunks have to write code, it has to be better
quality than Apple, with more marketing push than Microsoft.  And it must
do something useful so they also have to invent a new application that
would justify using the crypto it contains. 

All while they do something else to pay for things like food and heat. 

At this point it is easier to write laws.






From geer at world.std.com  Mon Sep 15 09:55:59 1997
From: geer at world.std.com (Dan Geer)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:55:59 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <19970913205340.14699.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199709151620.AA10818@world.std.com>




as you say,

    Sun Tsu (from memory): select the battleground where you are
    strongest and the enemy is weakest.

which is good advice.  

i recall Tzu also saying that you need to use
the enemy's momentum to your advantage, the 
principle of judo if you will.  in parallel,
revolutionaries of many stripes have found
that "heightening the contrast" is necessary
if you mean for real change to occur.  

which brings me to ask, rhetorically i suspect,
how we might heighten the contrast.  i'd suggest
delegating to some of us a support-the-bill
effort complete with a detailed description of
how the transmorgrified proposal that makes
illegal all sorts of now ordinary acts.

 * you can't talk on the phone in a language the surveillance
   folk don't know (witness Compuserve's prohibition of Welsh
   on their otherwise monitored bulletin boards)
 * cryptographic door locks are now illegal without escrow
   (witness the SecurID-equipped door knob)
 * contracts that are transmitted over electronic means including
   facsimile must not be encrypted unless the keys are made
   available (witness the proliferation of safe fax machines)
 * no end-to-end encrypting cellular telephones may be used even
   if you are talking to someone in an otherwise hostile country
   (witness the formal industrial espionage of some countries)
 * passwords that map directly to encryption keys must therefore
   be escrowed (witness nearly everything but start with all the
   Kerberos derivatives including new NT stuff)
 * banks have to ensure that encrypted materials put into their
   safety deposit boxes are escrowed (sue somebody for the keys
   in their box naming the bank co-defendant for failure to escrow)
 * the attorney client privilege will not apply to my whispering
   my key to him/her, i.e., if i tell my attorney my key they are
   now my escrow agent even if it means violating the sanctity
   of the private conversation (witness i-don't-know-what but
   call Kevorkian to enlist him)
 * outlaw anonymous trading and the firms that provide it on the
   grounds that these represent encryption-of-names (witness the
   rules requiring such trading under some circumstances and the
   convention for others)

in other words, shift the weight of who is radical
to them.  wrap ourselves in the flag deep within the
big-government-sucks camp.  march on the capital
dressed as skin heads demanding the end of privacy
for some sorrowful group or other.  send the kind
of letters that get you into trouble with the
Secret Service but send them encrypted in Bill's
private key (which you can issue him whether he likes
it or not).  mau-mau the flak catchers...

--dan






From declan at well.com  Mon Sep 15 09:56:25 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:56:25 +0800
Subject: Feinstein for governor! Good news for the US, bad news for CA
Message-ID: 




*26  CALIFORNIA:  LAYING THE GROUNDWORK FOR NOT RUNNING?
	Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D), in a "rare interview regarding
her political future, spoke glowingly of the chance to return
home" as the state's next gov., calling it a "very attractive"
possibility. "At the same time, Feinstein said she enjoys her
work in the Senate more than ever before and that her
'effectiveness can grow on a national level'" if she remains in
DC.  Throughout the 45-minute interview with the San Francisco
Chronicle, Feinstein "appeared deeply torn over her choice. 
Despite the urgings of some fellow Democrats to speed her
decision, Feinstein said it may be several months before she
declares her intentions. ... The key conflict appears to be
Feinstein's interest in becoming governor versus her reluctance
to endure a grueling campaign."  Were she to run, Feinstein said
the "cornerstone of her campaign would be a plan to fundamentally
restructure elementary education."  At the same time, Feinstein
"sees her effectiveness building in the Senate": "I actually like
the Senate much more now than I did initially.  I'm more
accustomed to its eclectic proceedings and rules and think I can
work on both sides of the aisle."  The legal filing deadline to
enter the 6/2/98 primary is 2/9/98, "and Feinstein said that if
she chooses to run, she could wait until the last moment to
file."  Feinstein "brushed aside the notion that uncertainty
surrounding her candidacy is freezing the field": "It's unrelated
to me.  There's plenty of time. ... It is important at this stage
that there be a strong Democratic governor with a sense of where
this state needs to go.  And it doesn't necessarily have to be
me" (Sandalow, 9/12). 






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 15 10:26:33 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:26:33 +0800
Subject: unSAFE won't pass?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915130316.03869554@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Peter asked me to forward this.

Here he makes a valuable point on political organization - something 
which helps explain why some people are more dire in their tone 
regarding the state of things here in Washington.

Below's what he wrote.

W.

At 10:31 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Will Rodger explained his view that:

>>It may make for good copy, but I think it's just fantasy to think 
>the
>>>administration or their opponents, for that matter, will get what
>>>they want this year. Let them swarm. Who cares.
>>>
>>>At earliest, August of 1998 before anything passes - and even that 

>is
>>>highly optimistic.

        In politics, unfortunately, you often have to act *as if* the 
other
side is going to win soon.  If you don't, they might.

        A great example was the 1986 Tax Reform Act.  Everyone knew 
that it
was too complicated for Congress to understand.  Everyone knew that 
there
were lots of powerful opponents to its elimination of many tax 
loopholes.
But the darn thing passed anyways.  Even supporters were shocked.  
The story
is told in a very well-written book, "Showdown in Gucci Gulch."

        When considering what Congress will do, remember that there 
are
12,000 bills a year introduced in each chamber.  Crypto is only one 
of many,
many issues the Members of Congress need to consider.  When things 
get too
complicated, a politician might think it's just easier to go along 
with law
enforcement.  How many politicians lose by being tough on crime?

        As for the 1996 Telecomm Act, it's a bad example of what's 
likely to
happen with crypto.  That Act was fought between truly enormous 
companies --
RBOCS, AT&T, cable, etc.  Those companies had enormous Washington 
offices
fighting a life and death lobbying battle for years.  In crypto, the 
good
guys have nothing like the same lobbying resources.  Unlike Telecomm, 
the
very largest existing companies in the country will not lose billions 
next
year if a bad crypto bill is passed.

        In short, it is quite possible that nothing will pass before 
August,
1998.  It is quite possible by then that the issue will seem 
politically
hot, and thus be dropped so close to an election.  But the FBI 
position
might win if we don't act *as if* mandatory key escrow is a real 
possibility.

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1 at osu.edu
http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (revised site now
	includes publications and Internet Privacy Page)


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Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter at ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F






From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Sep 15 10:29:51 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:29:51 +0800
Subject: More on House Intelligence committee amendment on crypto
In-Reply-To: <3422b46b.109964168@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199709151637.MAA06101@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3422b46b.109964168 at mail.geocities.com>, on 09/15/97 
   at 04:37 AM, fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson) said:

>If this is correct, any law that Congress would make that prevented me
>from seeking judicial review would be unconstitutional.

The Constitution was repealed by the Communist Franklin "Dictator for
Life" Roosevelt. The general public was never notified due to "national
security".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From sameer at c2.net  Mon Sep 15 10:33:07 1997
From: sameer at c2.net (sameer)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:33:07 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199709151709.KAA05123@gabber.c2.net>



> 
> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

	Sell code.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer at c2.net






From lizard at dnai.com  Mon Sep 15 11:02:39 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:02:39 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970915104030.00b06e90@dnai.com>



At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
>> 
>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>
>	Sell code.
>
Marketing.

It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.

PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)






From barber at ccrwest.org  Mon Sep 15 11:11:18 1997
From: barber at ccrwest.org (Tim Barber)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:11:18 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: <199709151620.AA10818@world.std.com>
Message-ID: 





On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Dan Geer wrote:

> i recall Tzu also saying that you need to use the enemy's momentum to
> your advantage, the principle of judo if you will.  in parallel,
> revolutionaries of many stripes have found that "heightening the
> contrast" is necessary if you mean for real change to occur. 
...
> in other words, shift the weight of who is radical to them.  wrap
> ourselves in the flag deep within the big-government-sucks camp.  march
> on the capital dressed as skin heads demanding the end of privacy for
> some sorrowful group or other.  send the kind of letters that get you
> into trouble with the Secret Service but send them encrypted in Bill's
> private key (which you can issue him whether he likes it or not).
> mau-mau the flak catchers...

I like these suggestions on how to fight fire with fire.  (Regarding the
last one though, do remember that even just impersonating a federal
official carries a jail term.  Federal citizens have more rights than the
rest of us.)

Whimsically, I can imagine a coalition of dictators lobbying congress in
favor of a key escrow policy.  "Enciphered communications are causing us
to lose our iron grip over our people.  We must impose key escrow now, so
that we can monitor domestic communications, and execute citizens who
exchange undesirable political ideas."

Regarding the struggle in general for free crypto, have faith that spin
control should always work in our favor.  Even if the entire government
remains opposed crypto, the press should still be on our side. 

T Barber
barber at ccrwest.org






From unicorn at schloss.li  Mon Sep 15 11:21:29 1997
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:21:29 +0800
Subject: Assume the worst, make lemonade?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970915133706.2fcf1be8@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915125900.006c2f68@schloss.li>



At 01:37 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Donald Weightman wrote:
>Well, I'm as angry as anyone about last week's developments, but there's
>work to do ...
>
>Suppose that there is only a 12 - 30 month window for distributing strong
>crypto. If there is a grandfather clause at the end, then would it make
>sense to approach Chaum or other holders of potentially mission-critical or
>roadblock patents, and ask whether they want to revisit the terms of
>potential licenses, in view of the storm clouds over the political
>landscape?  It would seem better to get something *out* rather than wasting
>the narrow time window trying to negotiate past impasse.

Then why bother talking to patent holders?  Just release it on the sly and
damn the patent holders.  I mean, if your intent is to get the stuff out
there, and your essentially going to be committing a felony anyhow in a few
years, who cares about a stupid patent suit?

What really needs attention is getting key lengths and stego such that they
are prepared to endure 20 years of crypto-freeze and Moore's law.  That is
if, and please understand my examination of the issue to be academic- not
advisory, you want it out there in the "underground."

>The only time I met him, Chaum seemed to be expressing political views
>which might make him sympathetic to such an approach.

Chaum is Jurassic CryptoSuit.  He waited, and he's about to lose all the
cookies because DigiCash did such a bang up job at accomplishing nothing
with extremely promising technology.  (RSA without the bravado).  Placing
bets on Chaum for the purposes of getting the technology out is silly.
(They just got another $25m and they still only boast something like 2,500
customers in the entire U.S.)  Placing bets on Chaum, however, for the
purposes of usurping the technology with the hope that it may be legal once
again to use it without handing government the key, that might be a
worthwhile approach.  Perhaps the patents look cheap right now, but if the
administration bill flops (don't hold your breath from what I hear), they
might get real valueable real quick.  That's more like the market savvy
approach this group should be taking.








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From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 15 12:01:26 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:01:26 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks-e test
Message-ID: <199709151901.OAA01319@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

This is a test of the link betwee cypherpunks-e at hpt.org and ssz.com.

Please don't reply unless you are on the cypherpunks-e list.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From dwightarthur at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 15 12:30:11 1997
From: dwightarthur at mindspring.com (Dwight Arthur)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:30:11 +0800
Subject: Real issue of crypto controls: security or taxation loss?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <341D9590.1B055ECF@mindspring.com>



Tim Barber wrote:
> Regarding the struggle in general for free crypto, have faith that
> spin
> control should always work in our favor.  Even if the entire
> government
> remains opposed crypto, the press should still be on our side.

Remember during Desert Storm, Saturday Night Live had a sketch
lampooning reporters for pressing the military for information that
would have been helpful to the enemy? And remember how right after that
the press briefings tightened up a lot? And months later someone
mentioned that the SNL skit gave them the courage to do it?

The press is on the side of whomever is most likely to deliver the scoop
that will elevate next week's ratings. If you can deliver a steady
stream of story ideas involving sex, celebrities, and paranoia, the
press will spin anything you want.

-Dwight






From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Mon Sep 15 12:34:25 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:34:25 +0800
Subject: Tim May on "The People"
In-Reply-To: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: 





(this is a mail messages that got stuck in the
queue a long time ago and just came out)

On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> > 
> [...]
> > Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
> > is full of weak-minded fools.
> 
> Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.
> 

I don't care.  IQ scores cluster about a bell curve.  Someone has to
fill out the left side.  Most of the left side don't understand
bell curves and that worries me.

> > This is the essential problem of
> > the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
> > illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
> > will via "the vote".
> 
> ?

The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to
excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote.  Somehow, even though we've
had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse
without stop.


>> The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness
>> with an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping
>> Channel (TM) and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as
>> they feed on the media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal
>> opinions, thorougly pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them
>> through a port in the side of their head labeled "fear".


> Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
> eliminated.

I never said that.  They count and I might say that giving them
the right to vote soothes their nerves because it gives them the
illusion of excercising (rather innefectual) self-determination.
Truth be told, the kinds of issues solved by the "vote" are minor
ones.  Somewhere (circa 1938) the constitutional republic was 
de-activated and replaced by something horrible and malevolent.
Meanwhile all the real power is wielded by a fascist melding of 
powerful corporations, politicians and the military/police state.

I think it quite likely that people are born into this world with some
combination of agression, intelligence and empathy.  The eight
combinations of these three variables determine the natural castes
in life.

Watch out for the one with high agression, high intelligence and
relatively little empathy.

I do internet security consulting for a living and get a chance to
interview everyone from the lowest engineers up to CEO's.  Its very
interesting to see what happens when we turn in our security 
vulnerability reports and see how the people react at the top.
Its a great reflection of character.  Many VPs run scurrying trying
to cover their asses and cover up the facts.  They will destroy
their underlings and force blame on them even when its clear
that their management decisions brought about the current situation.
Often their talent for deceit undermines the very security we
set out to establish putting at risk billions of dollars of
other peoples money.

Relatively little changes from the playground.

The worst are the ones that beligerantly assert that there
is no security problem and how dare we suggest that there
is.  These types are very dangerous because they are not
just reactive, they are pro-active and will destroy the
messengers to cover up their insecurity.  Their tactics are
very clever, quick and decisive.

For whatever its worth....

Actually I'm tired of stating the obvious.  What are the
current outstanding cypher projects?  I'd rather be
writing code. What I need is one more project on the
burner.


Jim Burnes

"How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
                        Elliot to his brother in ET











From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 15 12:45:36 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:45:36 +0800
Subject: Federal motivation
Message-ID: <94538490e039e66d8136d3f6021257ef@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Martin Minow wrote:
>Anonymous, signing as Monty Cantsin, Editor in Chief of Smile Magazine
>quotes my Cypherpunks summary's quote of Eric Hughes:
>>Martin Minow wrote:
>>> EH: Why do the Fed's want access to plaintext? The motivation has
>>> not been made clear. Policy goals are stated in technological terms,
>>> not in policy terms.
>>
>>Perhaps we can elaborate on this.  Judging from their actions, what
>>they want is a full blown police state.  They've seen the product, now
>>they want one of their own.  This is obvious to everybody on this
>>list, but sometimes people are coy about it, probably in an effort to
>>appear to be "legitimate".
>
>Sorry, it isn't obvious to me. The most paranoid I can work myself
>up to is to assume that some (not all) of our leaders want to restore
>their half-remembered 1950's Dick-and-Jane, big car, Eisenhauer suburbian
>childhood; and are afraid that letting absolute privacy loose will
>be the end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it.

The discussion is encryption, not absolute privacy.  It will still be
possible to inexpensively bug homes, offices, computers, etc.

Mass surveillance is only required for a police state, not to protect
the suburbs, not to protect children, not to catch real criminals.

So, when a secret police agency wants to set up a mass surveillance
system, what is the likely motivation for their action?

>This parallels the battles that were waged in the early 1960's, as
>the civil rights movement (and the Pill) shattered the myth of
>suburbia. The police and FBI felt, quite sincerely, that they were in
>the midst of a revolution and had to take "necessary measures" to
>save America.

What concerns me is what they will do, not their mental state when
they are doing it.  Even torturers believe they are doing the right
thing.  So what?

BTW, institutional loyalty does not require every member of the armed
services or secret police agencies to be fully cognizant of what they
are doing.  They just have to buy into the plan.  The leaders probably
don't believe in Santa Claus, though.

>The new cryptography makes the Internet safe for child pornographers,
>for revolutionaries, for criminals, as well as for human rights
>workers, for religious missionaries in unfriendly countries, and
>multinational corporations.

Yeah, last I checked, books were still safe, too.

>The message I read from the attempt to criminalize strong
>cryptography is that the risk of damage from the pornographers (etc.)
>is so great that we must restrict cryptography and trust the national
>leadership to respect the rights of the good guys. Unfortunately, one
>country's human rights worker is another country's dangerous
>revolutionary.

You would benefit from a study of the activities of the Federal
government over the last sixty years.  Pay particular attention to the
seedy political activities of the FBI and don't forget to cover CIA
assassination and torture programs.  Then come back and tell us
whether you still think they really care about children or whether
this is just a reason given to cover their actual activities.  (And
please explain why organizations which traditionally are not involved
with protecting children suddenly find it in their charter when mass
surveillance is on the table.)

For that matter, study the history of communications systems.  Why do
you suppose it is that governments have traditionally taken control of
postal systems?  Do you suppose it could have anything to do with
control?

Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 6:54 PM -0700 9/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:
>>Remember, the Martin Luther King who was thrown in jail in Alabama
>>in the early 1960's was the same Martin Luther Kings who received
>>the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later, and who was killed for
>>his revolutionary activities just a few years after that. Whether
>>he was a hero or villian depends on who writes the history book
>>and it is, ultimately, our responsibility to make sure that many,
>>conflicting, history books can be written.
>
>Most particularly remember that the director-for-life of the FBI used
>telephone intercepts in an attempt to get this Martin Luther King to commit
>suicide.

Good example.  This is one of many well documented examples of FBI
misbehavior throughout its entire history and even its pre-history.
(Hoover was involved with the Palmer Raids following World War I when
hundreds of people were arrested and thrown into makeshift prisons
without trials.  Some were kept there for years.)

In the case of MLK, his father and his grandfather were under
surveillance by the Federal Government since about WWI.  What crime
was being investigated?  None.  They weren't well liked in official
circles.

Thomas Junker wrote:
>This stuff is serious. This pattern is not new -- it is just new
>*here*, a development of the last 20 years. Similar slippery slopes
>have been traveled in other countries, in other times. These times
>are getting way too interesting for comfort.

You're on the right track, but the FBI has been a menace to the United
States since its inception.  Now, however, people are willing to let
them get away with more and some truly scary technologies exist.  And,
they are making their play.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 15 13:19:44 1997
From: 0005514706 at MCIMAIL.COM (Michael Wilson)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:19:44 +0800
Subject: Attacking GAK--team effort assembling
Message-ID: <01INOMKZ4GZ8APTBV8@DGN0IG.mcimail.com>



Given that the U.S. and E.U. governments seem to be moving toward a
policy of key escrow/recovery, 7Pillars Partners is starting a team
effort to demonstrate the practical problems in implementing such a
system.  The plan is to have the team block out the probable design
of the infrastructure, with as many of the options available outlined
and discussed (e.g., 'escrow' itself--will a copy of the secret key
need to be sent to the escrow agent, will it be created by the agent
and assigned to the device, will the method be the use of two receiver
keys (one packet to the intended party, one to the escrow agent), will
the method be to implement a 'back door' into the cryptosystem itself),
and then a thorough expansion on all possible methods of attack on the
various elements of the infrastructure (denial, flooding, espionage,
etc.).

The intent of this project is two-fold: it will provide a practical
guide that I hope will demonstrate that any key escrow/recovery system
and infrastructure, no matter how secure/safe, will fall to attack; if
such a system does end up being implemented and come into operation,
the analysis will serve as a first-approximation guide for resistance.

We could use a solid outside cryptographer, as well as an attorney
to work through the probable legal elements involved in the system.

Interest in being on the team should be indicated to:
Michael Wilson, 5514706 at mcimail.com or partners at 7pillars.com

MW
http://www.7pillars.com/






From hua at chromatic.com  Mon Sep 15 14:09:21 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:09:21 +0800
Subject: Feinstein in S J Mercury (and my reply) ...
Message-ID: <199709152046.NAA29320@ohio.chromatic.com>



Feinstein answers her critics in the usual way slimy politicians
answer critics: Dodge the crucial details and make broad, sweeping,
feel-good but substance-less statments.

    http://www.sjmercury.com/business/feinstein091597.htm

Here is my reply via a letter to the editor:

> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:31:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Ernest Hua 
> To: letters at sjmercury.com
> Subject: Feinstein's ignorance on encryption ...
>
> As with the previous Mercury interview with William Reinsch,
> I am extremely disappointed with this interview with
> Feinstein.  There was absolutely ZERO attempt to ask
> Feinstein to answer the tough policy questions in an open
> forum where ALL facts are present (not just the distorted
> information presented by the FBI in classified meetings).
>
> Look at these examples of the same tired arguments from the
> FBI and the NSA, now being spewed by a senator who openly
> admitted that she does not know much about the issue:
>
> > Q: Doesn't government control of encryption technology used
> > by American citizens infringe on their constitutional
> > rights?
> >
> > A: No one is talking about intrusion on privacy rights. That
> > is important. I would not support an intrusion of privacy.
>
> Everyone outside the law enforcement and the intelligence
> agencies ARE talking about privacy; that is why everyone
> wants strong encryption.
>
> When some of the most vocal groups fighting for encryption
> rights include privacy and civil liberty groups, I really
> wonder where Feinstein gets her information.  Is this just
> ignorance, living in denial, or "spin"?
>
> > ... When law enforcement authorities ... obtain a court
> > order, there should be some ability to act on behalf of
> > public safety.
>
> In fact, there is, but the entire focus as been on
> encryption, as if, in case that door were closed off, law
> enforcement and intelligence agents would be completely shut
> out.
>
> Technology has enabled strong encryption, but technology has
> also left a huge and UNENCRYPTED audit trail giving
> significant clues to what the user has been doing.  San Jose
> Mercury has even reported on one of the up and coming
> companies taking advantage of these hidden and very
> revealing trails of information to significantly boost a
> civil or a criminal investigation.
>
> Law enforcement is not crippled by encryption.  They just
> have to keep up with technology, which has offered them more
> advantages than they've ever had before.
>
> > Encryption is already being used by criminals, terrorists
> > and drug cartels. ... Imagine the tragedies that might not
> > be prevented if law enforcement officials are unable to
> > decode encrypted files ...
>
> Law enforcement lobbyists like to paint this picture that
> strong encryption is some sort of technological guarantee of
> absolute secrecy which has crippled their investigations.
> In fact, the FBI, when forced by court order to reveal the
> facts, admitted that no investigations to date were really
> obstructed.  Dorothy Denning, the only pro-law-enforcement
> academic on this issue, confirmed this in her recent study.
>
> No wonder the FBI fought tooth and nail to keep their
> internal memos from the public.
>
> > People's safety must keep pace with new developments in
> > technology, or we will live to regret it. ...  In this
> > case, the industry is being asked to put people's safety
> > ahead of their bottom line.
>
> This is the sort of bogus public safety reasoning that the
> FBI has been promoting.  There is not one single expert
> outside law enforcement that believes criminals will
> actually use any kind of government-mandated encryption.
>
> This is not 1960's.  Back then, strong encryption could not
> possibly be in the hands of individuals because they require
> very sophisticated computers to run.  Programming these
> systems were considered black magic.  The few experts on the
> topic were strongly censored by the NSA.
>
> Today, the same computing power is available in everything
> from a personal computer to a smart toaster.  You can buy a
> powerful chip for under $2.00 from Fry's.  Every
> engineering, math and science graduate today must have
> programming skills to be an effective employee.  Encryption
> books are widely available, and the Department of State
> admitted as much that they could no longer censor these
> books, even from export to unfriendly nations.
>
> If a terrorist can build a bomb from a $5 watch, he can type
> in a program to encrypt his plans.  So which nasty criminals
> can the FBI really snoop on?  Certainly not the ones
> building bombs from everyday appliances.
>
> > ... You replied that ``it seems to me that nothing but some
> > sort of mandatory key recovery does the job.'' Why?
> >
> > A: There needs to be some means, within the strict confines
> > of due process of law, for recovery of encrypted information
>
> Feinstein is obviously not a Constitutional scholar here.
> Where in the constitution does it say that law enforcement
> must be GUARANTEED the means to eavesdrop in ANY
> circumstance?  This sort of "make it up as it is convenient"
> attitude is why many people have long questioned her ability
> to genuinely protect civil rights.
>
> > Q: The National Research Council ... concluded that ... [the
> > risk of] ... unlimited encryption was outweighed by the
> > positive aspects of unlimited encryption, because that
> > provides the best opportunity for government, corporate
> > and individual computer users to protect themselves from
> > computer crime.
>
> > A: ... encryption ... already is being used in some of the
> > most serious crimes. ... Law enforcement officials must
> > maintain the ability to pierce encrypted communications in
> > these kinds of criminal operations.
>
> This is another dodge of the real question: Most of the
> members of the NRC panel ALSO got the classified briefing.
> These are the technical and policy experts (that's why they
> are on the panel in the first place).  What makes Feinstein
> think she is so much smarter than these experts, despite her
> claims of ignorance on the matter?
>
> Let's be realistic:
>
> 1.  Feinstein has a very warped view of the Bill of Rights
> because she has been the target of, among other things, a
> letter bomb.  She is running scared, and will demand nothing
> short of a crack down from law enforcement, so we cannot
> expect her to side with anyone AGAINST the wishes of law
> enforcement.  (Just look at her stance on the issue of
> freedom of speech on the Internet.)
>
> 2.  Feinstein has clearly stated in previous senate hearings
> that she is ignorant on this matter, and that she will
> definitely defer judgement to the law enforcement agencies.
> Well, she has once again proven her ignorance, but at least
> she's admitted it in the past.  The trouble is that she goes
> on to take significant policy positions on the matter
> anyway.  Why speak up so strongly on a topic where she's so
> clueless?
>
> 3.  Feinstein, like many politicians, does not want to deal
> with the details of issues because it would mean that she
> would have to make some very TOUGH questions and decisions.
> The high tech industry is absolutely against encryption
> regulations, so she is in a tight spot.  No wonder, in that
> same senate hearing, she left the room before her
> constituents showed up to testify.
>
> It's difficult to force a coward face reality and answer to
> real world concerns, and let us keep in mind that the FBI
> and the NSA have insisted on secret meetings rather than
> open discussions on this issue.  They simply do NOT want to
> have to face open scrutiny.  No matter how big a favor they
> THINK they are doing for us, they must be reminded that this
> is an open and democratic society, and that they may not
> choose to have a secret meeting just because they cannot win
> in open debate.
>
> ----
>
> Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer
> Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
> Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua at chromatic.com






From declan at well.com  Mon Sep 15 14:52:29 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:52:29 +0800
Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:57:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz


WASHINGTON (AP) - Pop quiz: How many U.S. senators are there?
	One in two Americans do not know the answer is 100, according to a
survey on the U.S. Constitution released Monday. And two in five don't
know there are three branches of government, let alone what they are.
	Mayor Edward G. Rendell of Philadelphia, where the Constitution
was signed 210 years ago this Wednesday, said the results were
disappointing.
	"That shows an appalling lack of knowledge for a document that
determines what we do," said Rendell, chairman of the National
Constitution Center, created by Congress in 1988 to increase awareness of
the document. "Every day, issues important and central to us as people and
government are affected by the Constitution."

[...]

	Ten basic questions about the Constitution:
	1. When was the Constitution written?
	2. Where was the Constitution written?
	3. What are the first 10 amendments to the Constitution called?
	4. Do you recall what the introduction of the Constitution is
           called?
	5. How many branches of the federal government are there?
	6. How many senators are there in the U.S. Congress?
	7. How many years are there in a Senate term?
	8. How many voting members are there in the House of
           Representatives?
	9. How many years are there in a representative's term?
	10. Who nominates the justices of the Supreme Court?

	Answers (and percentage of correct responses): 1. 1787 (19
percent); 2. Philadelphia (61 percent); 3. the Bill of Rights (66
percent); 4. the Preamble (55 percent); 5. three (58 percent); 6. 100 (48
percent); 7. six years (43 percent); 8. 435 (23 percent); 9. two years (45
percent); 10. the president (70 percent). 

	Source: National Constitution Center.







From jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Mon Sep 15 15:22:25 1997
From: jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:22:25 +0800
Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709152202.QAA27199@denver.ssds.com>




> WASHINGTON (AP) - Pop quiz: How many U.S. senators are there?
> 	One in two Americans do not know the answer is 100, according to a
> survey on the U.S. Constitution released Monday.

Well, that's pretty sad.  Unfortunately very few of these questions 
had anything to do with the ideas behind the details?  You can ask
as many "how many congressional paiges fit on the head of a 
xxxahemxxx pin" questions, but how many can answer more important
questions.  In the spirit of test competition I humbly offer this 
competing quiz.

1.  Who were the federalists and the anti-federalists?
2.  What was the difference?
3.  What are the reasons for each of rights enumerated by the Bill of 
Rights?
4.  What are the rights of the government?  Does it have any?
5.  What is the difference between rights and powers?
6.  What is more powerful, a sitting jury or the Supreme Court?
7.  Is the second clause of the second amendment depedent or not?  
8.  What is the meaning of the ninth and tenth amendments?
9.  What happenend to the constitution in 1938?
10. What is meant by the "welfare clause" of the constitution?  Show 
supporting evidence by quoting at least one founding father.
11. Who said "This country was founded with a pretty radical 
constitution, with radical freedoms.  When people abuse those 
freedoms you have to move to limit them."?
12.  What was the main argument against a bill of rights?
13.  What major document, which is signed yearly by most adult 
Americans is a direct violation of the fifth amendment?
14.  What is meant by freedom of assembly?
15.  What does the phrase "shall not be infringed" mean?
16.  What is meant by "a militia" in the second amendment?
17.  What is meant by "well-regulated" in the second amendment?
18.  What is meant by "free state" in the second amendment?    
19.  Which federal agencies are not specified in the constitution?
20.  And finally a real trivia question, kids.  What kind of 
paper was the Declaration of Independence and Constitution 
printed on?


Please feel free to add on any other questions before we set up 
the CypherPunks Constitutional Quiz Website.  ;-)

Regards,

Jim Burnes
 
Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes at ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Sep 15 15:35:37 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:35:37 +0800
Subject: Prof Junger exports [was Re: Court proceedings under new SAFE act]
In-Reply-To: <199709141158.HAA18846@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199709152124.WAA03211@server.test.net>




Peter Junger  writes:
> Omegaman writes:
> : What if I respond to Adam Back and accidently forget to snip his .sig? 
> : (if that's not prior restraint, I don't know what is!)
> 
> What it is, under current law, is a violation of Export Administration
> Regulations, unless you somehow get a license before you send the
> reply.  

Er, was this a slip up, is Peter trying a new tactic in his legal
explorations...

Peter (accidentally, or a slip-up) exports by quoting:

] To: Cypherpunks 
] From: "Peter D. Junger" 
] Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill 
] Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:03:38 -0400
] 
] Adam Back writes:
] : 
] : Declan McCullagh  writes:
] : > 
] : > I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
] : > electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
] : > suggested widespread civil disobedience. 
] : 
] : Might I suggest using RSA in perl:
] : 
] : print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
] : )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



I spoke to the dangers of this kind of effort at our meeting on Saturday.
After some excerpts, I'll explain just why I think this kind of "help" is
so dangerous.


At 12:59 PM -0700 9/15/97, Michael Wilson wrote:
>Given that the U.S. and E.U. governments seem to be moving toward a
>policy of key escrow/recovery, 7Pillars Partners is starting a team
>effort to demonstrate the practical problems in implementing such a
>system.  The plan is to have the team block out the probable design
>of the infrastructure, with as many of the options available outlined
>and discussed (e.g., 'escrow' itself--will a copy of the secret key
>need to be sent to the escrow agent, will it be created by the agent
>and assigned to the device, will the method be the use of two receiver
>keys (one packet to the intended party, one to the escrow agent), will
>the method be to implement a 'back door' into the cryptosystem itself),
>and then a thorough expansion on all possible methods of attack on the
>various elements of the infrastructure (denial, flooding, espionage,
>etc.).

First, it is very unlikely that finding theoretical weaknesses in a
confabulated scenario will be at all convincing to the supporters of GAK.
For several reasons. Theoretical "what if" scenarios tend not be be
convincing to anyone, and are easily dismissed.

Second, in contrast to the Clipper/Tessera thing, which was pretty
exhaustively mapped out (with the LEAF stuff, the Mykotronx implementation,
the plans for a mechanism to release keys, etc.), the latest GAK plan is
vague and insubstantial. Essentially nothing has come out on how it might
work. This makes speculation about weaknesses almost pointless.

Third, the *danger* is that industry and consultants will work so hard to
find flaws that they essentially _do some of the work_ in helping to build
a semi-viable GAK system!

One is reminded of the joke about the engineer being guillotined. The blade
won't fall. So the engineer looks up, thinks a moment, and says "I think I
see the problem...."

>The intent of this project is two-fold: it will provide a practical
>guide that I hope will demonstrate that any key escrow/recovery system
>and infrastructure, no matter how secure/safe, will fall to attack; if
>such a system does end up being implemented and come into operation,
>the analysis will serve as a first-approximation guide for resistance.

You're assuming what you're trying to prove. This does not bode well for
your "study" being taken seriously by GAK supporters. If I were Louis Freeh
or Diane Feinstein, I'd merely point to these words.

And GAK might actually work. This would still not be a reason to support
it, just as a "ban on typewriters" actually most worked (in terms of State
objectives) in the U.S.S.R., and just as a ban on Internet access in China
is even now "working."

The attack on GAK should mostly be on civil liberties grounds, and only
secondarily on risks (to commerce, to privacy, to national security). And
then only tertiarily on how efficient and workable it is.


>We could use a solid outside cryptographer, as well as an attorney
>to work through the probable legal elements involved in the system.
>
>Interest in being on the team should be indicated to:
>Michael Wilson, 5514706 at mcimail.com or partners at 7pillars.com

Well, a meta-issue is that the several communities already critiquing
facets of this plan (such as Cypherpunks, Cyberia-l, Fight Censorship, CDT,
Americans for a Secure Tomorrow, EPIC, Privacy International, the ACLU,
etc.) are likelier to come up with far more attacks, criticisms, etc., than
is a small effort like "7 Pillars" could possibly mount.

Granted, the set of comments already rolling in, and expected over the next
year, from these groups is "informal." But there is no "formal" GAK system
in place. We don't have the foggiest if the GAK is to involve something so
simple as requiring spare keys be escrowed, or some variant of the LEAF
thing, or some multiparty key sharing strategy, or even aptical foddering
of the keys. We just don't know.

I'm not trying to undermine the efforts of "7 Pillars." I just don't see
the point, and I see some serious dangers if such an effort helped the
government to shape a more "efficient" approach!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Mon Sep 15 16:23:39 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:23:39 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <199709151709.KAA05123@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: 



sameer  writes:

> > 
> > Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> > sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> 
> 	Sell code.

Write obnoxious and threatening lawyer letters.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Sep 15 16:24:46 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:24:46 +0800
Subject: Attacking GAK--team effort assembling
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709152317.TAA15576@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/15/97 
   at 03:55 PM, Tim May  said:

>I'm not trying to undermine the efforts of "7 Pillars." I just don't see
>the point, and I see some serious dangers if such an effort helped the
>government to shape a more "efficient" approach!

I think that the most effective way to attack GAK is to get moles on the
inside of the corporations like IBM,HP,...ect who will no doubt be very
active in putting this together.

Once they have their systems up and running activiate the moles and
fire-up Blacknet. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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pLhcS3Qg0I/qFhyPod1XyUve//iGZkeWXbJVdbIQNO8r06EfzJMj27w58mxgFsuD
2Ek1IRZiQjPkB6F6AtaFFKwVMQzC3KyyJaOAP+ZL+nhhbEW2nCqt7pF10fSKOo/d
7eTWwFZGrvE=
=5bib
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From whgiii at invweb.net  Mon Sep 15 16:32:42 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:32:42 +0800
Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709152318.TAA15597@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/15/97 
   at 02:25 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:57:45 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh 
>To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz


>WASHINGTON (AP) - Pop quiz: How many U.S. senators are there?
>	One in two Americans do not know the answer is 100, according to a
>survey on the U.S. Constitution released Monday. And two in five don't
>know there are three branches of government, let alone what they are.
>	Mayor Edward G. Rendell of Philadelphia, where the Constitution was
>signed 210 years ago this Wednesday, said the results were disappointing.
>	"That shows an appalling lack of knowledge for a document that
>determines what we do," said Rendell, chairman of the National
>Constitution Center, created by Congress in 1988 to increase awareness of
>the document. "Every day, issues important and central to us as people
>and government are affected by the Constitution."


This is quite understandable.

There is very little teaching of the Constitution or of Government in
public schools. Many years ago when I was in HS Civics entailed a 1
semester course 1/2hr a day in your senior year. While American history
may still be taught in the public schools it is done so by socialist who
have no interests of enlightening their students of the reasons this
country was founded or the philosophies that it is founded on.

We are paying today for allowing the socialist/statist taking control of
the education of our children 30 yrs ago.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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KvNx9EIT0cHRL/Vs4CJj7wwuBiBg+safKmw2R/gHDyCL7XICpYoBA0mbOSyk0zAv
Kko8mjwTflE=
=7wue
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From announce at lists.zdnet.com  Mon Sep 15 16:36:08 1997
From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:36:08 +0800
Subject: The NetBuyer Basement is Open!
Message-ID: 



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From gbroiles at netbox.com  Mon Sep 15 16:45:06 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:45:06 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>




Got a fax from Dellums' office this afternoon (finally!) with the
amendments from the National Security committee to SAFE - this will be on
the web at . 

---

AMENDMENTS TO H.R. 695
OFFERED BY MR. WELDON AND MR. DELLUMS

Strike Section 3 and insert the following:

SEC 3. EXPORTS OF ENCRYPTION.
	(a) EXPORT CONTROL OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS NOT CONTROLLED ON THE UNITED
STATES MUNITIONS LIST. - The Secretary of Commerce, with the concurrence of
the Secretary of Defense, shall have the authority to control the export of
encryption products not controlled on the United States Munitions List.
Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
this section shall not be subject to judicial review.

	(b) LICENSE EXCEPTION FOR CERTAIN ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS - Encryption
products with encryption strength equal to or less than the level
identified in subsection (d) shall be eligible for export under a license
exception after a 1-time review, if the encryption product being exported
does not include features that would otherwise require licensing under
applicable regulations, is not destined for countries, end-users, or
end-uses that the Secretary of Commerce has determined by regulation, with
the concurrence of the Secretary of Defense, are ineligible to receive such
products, and is otherwise qualified for export.

	(c) ONE-TIME PRODUCT REVIEW - The Secretary of Commerce, with the
concurrence of the Secretary of Defense, shall specify the information that
must be submitted for the 1-time review referred to in subsection (b).

	(d) ELIGIBLE ENCRYPTION LEVELS -

		(1) INITIAL ELIGIBILITY LEVEL. - Not later than 30 days after the date of
the enactment of this Act, the President shall notify the Congress of the
maximum level of encryption strength that could be exported from the United
States under license exception pursuant to this section without harm to the
national security of the United States. Such level shall not become
effective until 60 days after such notification.

		(2) ANNUAL REVIEW OF ELIGIBILITY LEVEL - Not later than 1 year after
notifying the Congress of the maximum level of encryption strength under
paragraph (1), and annually thereafter, the President shall notify the
Congress of the maximum level of encryption strength that could be exported
from the United States under license exception pursuant to this section
without harm to the national security of the United States. Such level
shall not become effective until 60 days after such notification.

		(3) CALCULATION OF 60-DAY PERIOD. - The 60-day period referred to in
paragraphs (1) and (2) shall be computed by excluding -

			(A) the days on which either House is not in session because of an
adjournment of more than 3 days to a day certain or an adjournment of the
Congress sine die; and

			(B) each Saturday and Sunday, not excluded under subparagraph (A), when
either House is not in session.

	(e) EXERCISE OF EXISTING AUTHORITIES. - The Secretary of Commerce and the
Secretary of Defense may exercise the authorities they have under other
provisions of law to carry out this section.



Amend the title so as to read "A bill to amend title 18, United States
Code, to affirm the rights of United States persons to use and sell
encryption."

[Note - title 18 is the criminal section of the US Code. SAFE's original
title was "To amend title 18, United States Code, to affirm the rights of
United States persons to use and sell encryption and to relax export
controls on encryption."]



--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 15 16:45:09 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:45:09 +0800
Subject: Federal Emergencies, Martial Law, etc.
Message-ID: <199709152335.QAA13927@always.got.net>





I ran across this short summary of various national emergency orders. A
useful reminder that the government views us as cogs in the machine, to be
used as necessary. And that private property may be seized at will. 

So much for the actual Constitution. (Declan cited a poll showing
ignorance of the Constitution. I would have flunked, too. E.g., "What do
you call the first 10 amendments to the Constitution?" My answer: "You
call them "null and void."")

Search engines will turn up the full versions of each of these orders.
Some are part of the Continuing Economic Emergency (tm), either the one
declared in 1971 by Nixon, or the one declared by Johnson or Kennedy or
Eisenhower. Or perhaps the one declared by Roosevelt (when banks were
shut, when gold was declared contraband, and so on). Or maybe the one
declared 135 years ago by Lincoln. Or maybe the emergency declared during
the Whiskey Rebellion. And so it goes.


--Tim


> From: mrostov 
> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
> Subject: Re: DEFINITION OF MARSHALL LAW ?
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:24:01 -0700

> 
> FEDERAL EXECUTIVE ORDERS
> 
> 10995    Seizure of all print and electronic media in the United States
> 
> 10997    Seizure of all electric power, fuels, and minerals, public and
> private.
> 
> 10998    Seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private,
> including farms and equipment.
> 
> 10999    Seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks or
> any other vehicles, including control over highways, harbors, and
> waterways.
> 
> 11000    Seizure of all American people for work forces under federal
> supervision; it allows the government to split up families if they
> believe that it is necessary.
> 
> 11001    Seizure of all health, education, and welfare facilities, public
> and private.
> 
> 11002    Registration by the Postmaster General of all men, women, and
> children for government service.
> 
> 11003    Seizure of all airports and aircraft.
> 
> 11004    Seizure of all housing and finance authorities; authority to
> establish forced relocation, designate areas that must be abandoned as
> 'unsafe'. Establishment of new locations for population groups, building
> of new housing on public land.
> 
> 11005    Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways, and storage
> warehouses, public and private.
> 
> 11051    Authorize the Office of Emergency Planning to put the above
> orders into effect in times of increased international tension or
> financial crisis.
> 
> 
> Rostov

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."






From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Sep 15 17:11:24 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:11:24 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:Let sleeping dogs lay
Message-ID: <199709152352.QAA19543@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 05:04 PM 9/11/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Nothing good can come out of crypto legislation.

If it had not been for SAFE, now unSafe, we would be facing
this crisis a bit later, when we will have more money, more 
power and more crypto deployed.

There is no legislation like NO legislation.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From asgaard at cor.sos.sll.se  Mon Sep 15 17:19:04 1997
From: asgaard at cor.sos.sll.se (Asgaard)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:19:04 +0800
Subject: US dissident in Sweden
Message-ID: 



The Dagens Nyheter reported yesterday that a US citizen,
Mr Ritt Goldstein, is in Sweden asking for political asylum.
Alledgedly he has been systematically harassed and persecuted
by US police after organizing resistance against police
violence and brutality.

The NYPD 'zero tolerance success' has recently been praised
here as something for the Swedish police to learn from. Luckily
the 'up yours' story surfaced soon afterwards.

The latest crypto policy news here says that Sweden will not
go along will mandatory GAK. In the long run there is little
hope for European resistance to the New World Order, though.
Only France has nuclear warheads out of US control and France
is The Enemy as the leading proponent of an EU Superstate.


Asgaard






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 15 17:39:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:39:50 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 8:41 AM -0700 9/15/97, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
>If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
>recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to just
>run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
>GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes available
>there.
>
>My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
>on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
>send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
>
>What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
>license people to create them.

"There ain't no such thing as free escrow."

Some fee will be collected to register keys. "To defray costs" (never mind
that the government is the party _requiring_ the damned escrow!).

This will stop the "flooding attacks" which a free key escrow system would
generate. It will also, sadly for us, put an end to many applications where
keys are generated quickly, transiently, and on an ad hoc basis. There
simply will be no time to register the keys, and the $10 (or whatever)
processing fee will be unacceptable for these applications.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From mrlewis at keygen.com  Mon Sep 15 17:40:56 1997
From: mrlewis at keygen.com (Myron Lewis)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:40:56 +0800
Subject: Your Privacy and Your Life
Message-ID: <19970916003614.AAA3667@mrlewis.tiac.net>



 Bob:  After spending a lot of time following the mail recently, I informed
a friend (a prominent economist with a major firm that manages money and
investments for governments and the like) about the latest goings on in the
U.S. government's attempt to essentially ban privacy.  He came up with a new
twist that I thought might be interesting to many.

Editorial note: Jay is not a cryptographer, so by "unbreakable" I think he
should mean breakable only with extreme difficulty (i.e. it�s not worth the
effort)) without the key(s).

I have encapsulated the term in quotes. .....MRL.



PROPOSED BAN ON "UNBREAKABLE" DATA ENCRYPTION

IT�S NOT JUST YOUR PRIVACY THAT IS AT STAKE: IT COULD BE YOUR LIFE!



The Federal government wants to make it unlawful for anyone in the US to use
any form of data encryption, to which a key has not been provided to the
Federal government. In effect, the proposed laws outlaw privacy. Government
officials claim there is no communication which they should not be able to
read. Government officials claim they need this power so they can catch
criminals, terrorists and spies.

Key questions that must be asked of those who support giving government
officials this extraordinary power:

Why should the doings of criminals set the standard of behavior to be
applied to the vast majority of Americans, who are law-abiding?

Do government officials expect criminals to obey this law?

Do government officials have any data series which show the number of cases
in which intercepted data/telephone communications were the only evidence
available for use against the accused?

"Unbreakable" encryption can save your life. Most of us have records in all
sorts of databases, for all kinds of good reasons (tax records, payroll
records, medical records, military service records, credit card usage, car
rentals, etc.). The advent of cheap computing power makes it possible for
these databases to be linked, so that a quite complete picture of each
American can quickly be assembled. These data can be potentially lethal. For
example, if an abused woman has fled to a distant part of the country, these
data can be searched with relative ease by her abuser, if he has the
requisite computer skills. With "unbreakable" encryption, his efforts will
be blocked. Rather than banning "unbreakable" encryption, Federal law should
mandate it for key personal databases, of the type listed above.

At an extreme, your personal data could be used to target you for genocide.
In most European countries, citizens must carry national identity cards, a
form of internal passport. When one moves to a new town, one must register
with the police there. Those who have watched movies depicting World War II
in Europe perhaps recall Gestapo agents stopping persons on the streets and
demanding to see their "papers". Police officers in Europe can still demand
to see national identity cards when they wish to do so: minorities are often
targeted.

We do not have "national identity" cards here in America. Yet. But the
various databases, if linked, could formal a virtual "national identity"
card. Thus, if as future administration decided it wanted to target a
certain group of Americans, as was the case with Japanese-Americans during
World War II, those databases could become a virtual death warrant for those
in the target group.

Rather than supporting a ban on "unbreakable" encryption, every American
should demand that Congress require key databases be "unbreakably"
encrypted, and that severe punishments should be meted out to those who
refuse to "unbreakably" encrypt such databases.

The Federal government�s argument that a ban on "unbreakable" encryption
will cripple its efforts to protect us against criminals overlooks a key
fact. The biggest criminals in this century have not been common or
organized criminals. The biggest murderers in this century have been
officials of governments "gone bad". In eight major genocides between 1915
and 1994, 57 million were murdered, including millions of children. In the
Nazi genocide alone, 13 million were murdered in 13 years. It would take
Europe�s common criminals about 400 years to murder so many, if America�s
peak murder rate in the past 20 years (10.2/100K in 1980) were applied to
Europe.

Plenty can be done to curb violent criminals. But asking us to accept a ban
on "unbreakable" encryption is asking us to commit suicide for fear of
death. Call your Congress member and demand they vote against the ban on
"unbreakable" encryption. The life you save may be your own, or those of
your spouse, children and grand-children.

Jay Edward Simkin, Research Director, JPFO (Milwaukee, WI)

  Ed. note:  This is not his real job.






From amp at pobox.com  Mon Sep 15 17:53:53 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:53:53 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970912171321.006b57f8@schloss.li>
Message-ID: 



OR...

They are passed by voice vote of "unanimous consent" as was done with the 
'brady bill' when only 5 senators were present.

amp

------------------------
  From: Lucky Green 
  Subject: Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no 
bill 
  Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:55:42 -0700 
  To: "Brock N. Meeks" 
  Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com, cryptography at c2.net


> At 09:12 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:
> >Don't count on the language being yanked in Judiciary.  The real "only 
> >hope" is actually an incredibly low tech and unsexy thing called "time."
> >
> >The 105th Congress wants to split early, possibly in three weeks!  Yes, 
> >three weeks (hard working lot, eh?)  There is no way this bill gets 
> >through the Rules committee with multiple versons floating around and 
> >then gets brought to the floor for a vote... won't happen.
> 
> Are you sure about this? Traditionally, anti-civil liberties legislations
> is passed by well over 90% of the vote only days before Congress 
adjourns.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green 
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/15/97
Time: 19:42:59
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: 



At 2:06 AM +0200 9/16/97, Asgaard wrote:
>The Dagens Nyheter reported yesterday that a US citizen,
>Mr Ritt Goldstein, is in Sweden asking for political asylum.
...
>
>The latest crypto policy news here says that Sweden will not
>go along will mandatory GAK.  ...

I wouldn't count on Sweden as a haven for strong crypto or,
in particular, untraceable anonymity. Also, the Swedish national
police have quite a few skeletons in their closet with respect
to personal integrity (look for references to IB, the
"Information Bureau" or read the entire series of Sjovall/Wahloo
"Martin Beck" novels.)

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep 15 19:32:51 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:32:51 +0800
Subject: Adam Back in British Science Journal
Message-ID: <199709160211.EAA24308@basement.replay.com>




 When the British Science Journal asked readers to
recommend redesigns of the human body, one imaginative
soul said he'd like the esophagus separated from the
trachea with different apertures so he could drink a yard
of ale and sing "God Save the Queen" at the same time.







From amp at pobox.com  Mon Sep 15 20:18:11 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:18:11 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: <97Sep15.114111edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: 





------------------------
  From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com
  Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) 
  Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:41:53 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks 


> 
> If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
> recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to
> just
> run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
> GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes
> available
> there.
 
> My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
> on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
> send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
 
> What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
> license people to create them.
 
which bugs would those be? key generation is pretty critical. i'd be 
interested in any strange results you've found.



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/15/97
Time: 22:04:56
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i



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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep 15 21:52:42 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:52:42 +0800
Subject: Sen. DiFi in the Merc 9/15 - Same old Same old
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915090640.00697cf0@popd.ix.netcom.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The SanJose Mercury News interviewed Senator Dianne Feinstein for today's 
paper.
She gave a good answer on why encryption is im[prtant for protecting our 
privacy,
then segued into why Law Enforcement needs access to it.
Q:"Doesn't government control of encryption technology used by American 
citizens
infringe on their constitutional rights?
A:"No one is talking about intrusion on privacy rights".... telephone 
analogy...
"Encryption is already being used by criminals, terrorists, and drug cartels.
THe terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center had plans to blow up 11
American commercial airliners.  Encrypted files detailing these plots were 
found
on one of the terrorists' computers.  Imagine the tragedies that might not be 
prevented if Law Enforcement officials are unable to decode encrypted files
when necessary."
Q on her district strongly wants encruption
A: "California's high-technology  industry is one of the most potent economic
and technological forces in the world.  The industry is being asked to develop
this technology in a way that does not take away Law Enforcement's ability to
protect public safety.
	People's safety must keep pace with new developments in technology or we
will live to regret it.  I understand the desire, the need even, for companies
to be competitive in a world market.  In this case, the industry is being 
asked to
put people's safety ahead of their bottom line.  It's that simple."

- ---  and much more rot along those lines.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNB1dD/thU5e7emAFAQGv+gH+I71kgKcEpZ5Z93T33TFg/vyD5eUvXB+5
JC+HXwC7XTPtghW3ETB8h+GbtkOwumFpq0Xmd3a4xqaF+x4E+JIwUw==
=dF+5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep 15 22:16:48 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:16:48 +0800
Subject: Attacking GAK--team effort assembling
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915220031.006aef54@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 06:20 PM 9/15/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I think that the most effective way to attack GAK is to get moles on the
>inside of the corporations like IBM,HP,...ect who will no doubt be very
>active in putting this together.
>Once they have their systems up and running activate the moles and
>fire-up Blacknet. :)

We did that years ago - TPC invented the UUCPnet, and Steve Bellovin
and friends invented Usenet, and for several years the Center Of The Earth
was either Peter Honeyman's allegra machine or ihnp4.  You'll find 
Steve and Honey hanging out on coderpunks or cryptography...
Since then it's mutated and taken over the world.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From brandy at witcapital.com  Mon Sep 15 22:54:17 1997
From: brandy at witcapital.com (brandy at witcapital.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:54:17 +0800
Subject: Wit Capital Update -- Unprecedented investment opportunities
Message-ID: <199709160538.WAA29170@toad.com>



Dear Investor:
 
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Since then, you may be aware that I started Wit Capital for pioneering the offering and trading of securities through the Internet.
I`m pleased to tell you that Wit Capital is open for business and ready to accept your Membership.
 
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Sincerely yours,
 
Member NASD and SIPC
Andrew Klein
Founder
Wit Capital Corp.
 
P.S. Because of the high degree of risk associated with an investment in new issues, such investments are not suitable for all investors.






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep 15 23:20:46 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:20:46 +0800
Subject: PGP Usability
In-Reply-To: <199709151709.KAA05123@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970915230203.006b9d4c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:40 AM 9/15/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)

So generate a work key at work, for encrypting/signing work stuff, and get
your home key off the keyservers for encrypting stuff for home use.

I'm also highly pleased to see Eudora and PGP together, since there's
a base of about 20 million Eudora users that PGP will pick up some of.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 16 15:07:35 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Access to Plaintext:  An Obvious Consequence
Message-ID: 



--- begin forwarded text


From: Somebody
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:12:47 -0400 (EDT)
To: rah at shipwright.com
Subject: Access to Plaintext:  An Obvious Consequence

Bob,

If no encryption product can be sold that can't decrypt everything it
encrypts, then
no public key systems can come to market.  That would effectively eliminate
the entire range of encryption products of interest to you.

Surely, this is clear?




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 16 00:56:09 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:56:09 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 11 / The GeigerBurg TEXT
Message-ID: <341E363E.3800@sk.sympatico.ca>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Distributed Mind
     Real TV

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Distributed Mind
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos and the Cowboy sat silently staring at one another across the
antique oak table which increasingly served as a reminder that their present
was also a part of a long distant past.

A past which wouldn't go away�

"Good morning, gentlemen." d'Shauneaux tipped his hat to the somber pair of
time-worn miscreants.
"Ladies�" he said, turning to the sleeping figures on the cots at the back
of the room, while giving himself a hitch in the crotch.

Cowboy and Bubba broke into wide grins, for the first time in quite a while.
Cowboy nudged Rom Dos and stage-whispered, "It looks like our 'other
brother, Bubba' is going to die a slow and horrible death at the hands of
the Feminazis."

"Those who do learn from the past, are happy to repeat it!" came the voice
of the 'sleeping' Priscilla.

"Put it back in your pants, Bubba #3." came the voice of the 'sleeping'
Alexis.

d'Shauneaux looked confused.
"Who is Bubba #2?"

Bubba Rom Dos rose to his feet and winked at d'Shauneaux while giving
himself a hitch in the crotch. He returned to his chair amidst a roar of
laughter from the maddening crowd of Mythical Remnants, as they had dubbed
themselves after the experiences of the last few days.
Alexis smiled at having used this shared joke from her and 'Uncle Bubba's'
sordid past to set up d'Shauneaux for the punch line. Priscilla just shook
her head in disgust at this reminder of what she had subjected her poor
young daughter to in the days of her youth.

After the morning hugs and the morning toasts had been taken care of, the
group got down to the business of waiting silently for one or another of
them to find some slim ray of hope to offer to the others concerning their
rapidly deteriorating situation.

"What the hell happened to InfoWar?" d'Shauneaux said, out of the blue.
The others looked at him as if that was exactly what they had expected him
to say.

"Damned if I can figure it out." the Cowboy shook his head, looking
bewildered.

"It died before it was born, from what I understand." Priscilla seemed
equally mystified.

"It was strange." Alexis commented. "It appeared in the shadow of the
InterNet, becoming a looming figure of the future when the 'Information
Highway' took hold, but after the opening salvo was fired on the CypherPunks
list, it just quietly disappeared.
"As if it had never begun." she added.

Everyone turned toward Bubba, awaiting his contribution to the discussion,
but he sat there staring at each of them in turn, and all of them at once,
with a puzzled look on his face. It wasn't a 'good' look, it wasn't a 'bad'
look, it was�

"Distributed Mind!" Bubba suddenly intoned in a whispered shout.

The others stared at him, dumbfounded, but unsure as to why, or about what.

"Distributed List!" the Cowboy slapped his forehead.

"Distributed Persona!" Alexis said, as if waking from a dream.

d'Shauneaux rose from his chair with a look of divine revelation on his
face, as if blessed with a vision from the heavens. He held his hand out
above his head as if calling for complete silence while he drank in the last
sips of the spiritual liquor from above.
Finally, he spoke, while grabbing his crotch, once again,

"Distribute this!" he shouted, causing everyone in the room to burst into a
fit of laughter that seemed like it would never subside.

"So what, exactly, are we talking about, here?" d'Shauneaux asked when the
laughter had finally ceased.
"I'm getting the distinct impression that all of you are finishing a
conversation that you never started. Not that I understand what I just said,
you understand."

"Exactly!" Bubba broke in, as if d'Shauneaux had just cleared up an
important question that hadn't yet been asked.
"Multi-user persona. Distributed list.
"Distributed, multi-user persona."
"Distributed Mind!" Bubba shouted�for real, this time.

The small collection of practical mystics looked at one another in awe of
what they seemed to be realizing, as if of one mind�

The Cowboy was the first to say what all of them now knew.
"InfoWar was never fought, because by the time it began, it was already
won!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

? the Lunatic sat on the futon, sipping Jim Beam and speaking softly to Baby
as he scratched her behind the ears.
Although he knew he was as crazy as he had ever been, it was an experience
which he could only describe as 'Stone-Cold Crazy.'

"Stone-Cold Crazy, Baby." he told her, sure that she understood.

He continued talking to her, not to imbue the moment with great meaning, but
seeming to need to burn off an excess of random thoughts that were sweeping
rapidly through his mind, all interconnected but needing to find release if
they were ever to be slowed down and sorted out in the realm of reality.

"If it wasn't for the word, 'Baby', there wouldn't be no Rock & Roll!"
It was as good a place as any, to start. The hallowed words of Gomez,
himself.

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
The final words of the Author in "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre."

? the Lunatic spoke quietly, but rapidly, pouring forth a liturgy of quotes
and thoughts, wavering back and forth between rationality and dementia.

"Patience comes to those who wait. If you don't leave me alone, I'll find
someone who will. Will I still respect you in the morning? Hell, I don't
respect you now! Who put the Ram in the Rama-Rama Ding-Dong? My madness
takes it's ground-round, 59 cents a pound. SPACE ALIENS HIDE MY DRUGS!"

What was he looking for? It was on the tip of his tongue. It was everywhere
and nowhere. It was in the midst of his sanity and at the depths of his
madness.
It was�

"TV is REAL!" the voice came loud and clear, stretching from the distant
past to the equally distant future.

"TV is REAL. TV is REAL. TV is REAL!" he repeated over and over, knowing
that if he could just focus on what meaning it held�what meaning it held�

"InfoWar!" thought ? the Lunatic, suddenly remembering the question:
"What the hell happened to InfoWar?"

"TV is REAL!" he said, not daring to believe what he heard in his inner mind
as the words were spoken.
"InfoWar was over before it began�"

"It was over before it began." he repeated.

Suddenly, everything was crystal clear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                   Real TV
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tattered remnants of the Magic Circle were having the time of their
lives. While their world was fast falling apart, both in the present and in
the past, they were celebrating life in both milieu at once.

"George Goebels." Cowboy said. "He was a riot!"

"And 'I Love Lucy' wasn't?" Priscilla gave him a doubtful look.

"Paul Neuman." d'Shauneaux said. "He knew the 'rules' of war!" He feinted a
kick to the Cowboy's groin.

"Bianca and Blanc!" said Alexis, acting coy.

"They weren't in any of the movies we watched." Cowboy gave Alexis a stern
stare for stepping out of line with the rest of the group's conversation.

"That's right, Alexis." Bubba joined in, wagging two fingers at her
menacingly before turning to stick them into the Cowboy's eyes, slapping
d'Shauneaux across the face, and then banging the two men's heads together.

"The Three Stooges!" Jonathan called out, throwing everyone into fits of
laughter as they recognized Bubba's excellent parody of the trio who had won
the comedic hearts of boys and men throughout history, while leaving the
girls and women scratching their heads.

Bubba passed around a bottle of his 'Special Reserve' Jack Daniel's and the
Cowboy started a bottle of Jim Beam moving in the opposite direction.
"To Bogie and Bacall." Bubba said, raising his glass in toast, and the
others nodded their agreement with his astute judgment in settling the
battle of the sexes amicably.

Once they were done reveling in the mountains of pleasant memories which
would now be permanently etched in their minds from their marathon video
cruise through the past, they turned to the more serious business of
discussing the dark side of the technology they had been studying nonstop,
day and night, for several days.

"McLuhan nailed it." Alexis was the first to speak. "The medium is the
message."

"It has been true since the dawn of time, and will remain true until the sun
sets on this mortal stage within which we make our exits and our entrances."
Bubba said, solemnly, looking as serious as he ever had since the gathered
group had known him.
"McLuhan was a compatriot of Bubba Rom Dos I." Bubba continued, with a tone
of respect in his voice that those assembled had rarely heard. "It is no
surprise that the Author understood the future of mankind, for better or
worse, lay within the breast of the InterNet, long before it became the
common view. He knew that man and machine, mind and data, would finally be
irretrievably wed in the march toward the future.
"And he saw the specter of the Evil One's hand casting its shadow over the
InterNet, even in the days when the handful of others who knew of its
existence were looking to it as the coming Savior of mankind."

"Kill!" commanded the grizzled old guru, and the IntelliVoice Matrix scanned
their recent conversation, bring up to the GraphiScreen the relevant
passages from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre."

~~~

Gomez had seen the media bringing the far-flung reaches of the world and its
people closer and closer together with each new technological development.
Prehistoric man lived and died, for the most part, within a matter of miles
from the place of his birth. With the invention of the wheel he began to
travel a little further�into new and foreign lands. In the days of sailing
ships it took man the better part of his lifetime to cross the oceans,
navigate the world, and return home. Then came faster ships, then airplanes
and jets.

Communications technology made the world smaller, but only at the limits of
its current level of development. Mail brought news over a period of years,
then months, then weeks and days. Newspapers brought news of the outside
world to the average citizen. Then suddenly, with the advent of the
telegraph, the wireless, radio and television, the world became an extension
of ourselves-and we became an extension of the world.

Now, when it happens in Paris, in Vietnam, in Russia, it happens here-in our
living room-nightly. Fashion trends, opinions, world views-these are no
longer our own private enclaves of individuality. What we do, and espouse,
belongs to the world, and what they adopt and embrace belongs to us. All of
mankind now shares, in an interactive experience, the reverberation of all
that we do, individually and collectively,-spanning the oceans and
continents until it has finally become a truism that, "no man is an island."

~~~

The clan of true believers sat with their heads bowed, almost weeping with
the force of emotion that descended slowly upon them as their minds retraced
the trail of history they had followed from the Author's era to their own.
Knowing, all the time, the end that would come unexpectedly on the
unsuspecting souls who thought that Technology was going to be a kind God,
and a good Master.

"How was it that the Author saw what nobody else at the time seemed to
notice?" Alexis asked Bubba. "How did he manage to foresee so clearly the
Dark Path that lay ahead for a technology that was still in its infancy?"

Bubba smiled, feeling in his element, in control, once again. He was, after
all, a teacher of metaphysics, first and foremost, no matter what his
outwardly outrageous personal predilections.
"The Author saw no more than those with eyes to see have seen from the
beginning of time. The difference was that he recorded what he saw, and he
followed its trail into the future by bearing in mind the past."

"Brave New World." Jonathan said. "Animal Farm. Catch-22. One Flew Over the
Cuckoo's Nest. Them. Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Night of the Living
Dead."
Jonathan knew these titles by heart, from the books in his Grandfather's
study.

Each member of the Magic Circle broke into a wry grin, as if from a single
pair of lips. Yes, Bubba was right. There were those who saw, and those who
spoke of the world that lay beyond the veil of mechanical consciousness,
throughout the annals of time.

"The Author was not alone in his vision, he merely recorded it at a time and
place in history where his words would prove conspicuously prophetic because
society and technology were moving at such a rapid pace that tomorrow's
seeds were blooming today, but nobody was stopping to smell the flowers."
Bubba pointed out.

"Or the stench!" the Cowboy added.

The Cowboy sprang from the lineage of the Author, and he understood very
well the nature of the startling prophecies he made which so astounded those
who read his manuscript with the benefit of the hindsight provided by the
march of history.

They continued reading the excerpt from the "TXCSM" manuscript:

~~~

We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the soap operas and
the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our opinions and world-views in
catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes.

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble and turmoil
in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies, can chip away at
human and individual rights under the guise of dealing with various
'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted as a means of retaining
power over the masses.

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone and
everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation, Gomez and
the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide the development of a
technology that will, along with television, be the ultimate weapon in their
struggle for the domination of all mankind-the Computer.

~~~

Priscilla was the first to mention what they were all thinking, this time.
"It's almost like reading the Cypherpunks list."

"It predated the CypherPunks list," the Cowboy noted, "but it didn't predate
the CypherPunks. They, like the Magic Circle, have existed from the
beginning of time.
He looked at Jonathan to explain further.

"If the Cypherpunks had never existed, then history itself would have had to
turn back on itself and invent them before moving forward."
Jonathan watched the smiles of his dearest friends as they saw the love with
which he spoke of those who had helped shape his childhood. It was the same
love that they had all experienced in the bond they felt within the Magic
Circle.
"The Cypherpunks mailing list gave hope and sustenance to the Circle of
Eunuchs initiates who happened across its path. Since the original meeting
where the Magic Circle had been formed, they had been forced to work alone,
in secret, never knowing if their efforts would ever make a difference in
the larger scheme of things."

They returned to the excerpts:

~~~

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with the hypnotizing
power of television-stealing our thoughts and our reasoning processes in our
slumber, feeding us our reality via the airwaves�according to the 'official'
party line.

The government and the media have placed us on neat little shelves where we
are numbered and labeled according to their own wants and needs. We are
allowed the illusion of freedom of thought, and individual choice, as long
as we have our 'Freedom of Thought Permit 1136.51-709' and don't stray too
far from the permitted paths.

~~~

Jonathan told the assembly, "The Cypherpunks, more than anyone in their era,
understood that."

"And the Circle of Eunuchs understood that�" Bubba pointed to the words only
now beginning to take shape on the screen he had opened.

~~~

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always been beaten by
the individuals scattered in the secret places, living unnoticed in
obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively, forgotten about in the madness
storming the land, they have kept alive the spark of Thought and Reason.
They were able to go quietly about their work, making contact with the
individuals who were ready to escape the madness and work towards restoring
Sanity in the land.

~~~

The Cowboy stood up and made a sweeping gesture toward the screen, as it
filled anew, saying, "And both organizations contained a variety of
individuals who, despite the fact that the minds of almost all of society
around them was caught in the grip of the Evil One's mind-numbing vortex,
rose above the automatism of their age to do what they could to warn their
fellow citizens of the following�"

All eyes turned toward the screen, to read:

~~~

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child on the face of
the earth will have a dossier documenting their life from the time of their
arrival on the face of the planet. Information gleaned from the Department
of Motor Vehicles, their Social Security Number, banks, credit cards,
magazine subscriptions, charitable and political contributions.

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing them as dark
agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power for doing the bidding of
the Evil One, the names of the misfits and wrong-thinkers will be spit out
of the computers at the speed of light-to be rounded up and disposed of in
the opening salvo of the new Holocaust.

Only then will the final Battle of Armageddon begin, ravaging the face of
the earth and devouring humanity; bringing total control of humankind under
the Dominion of the Evil One, with nobody but the Waking Dead left to carry
on the human race.

~~~

The group sat quietly, in solemn honor of those throughout history who had
held closely to the small, quiet spark of the Tao, the human spirit, the
Creator, or whatever they envisioned when Eternity whispered to their souls.

Slowly, they began to stir, and rose to silently stretch before returning
once again to the great oak table to continue their quest for understanding
as to how and why they must find some way to make their reach into the past
result in a slight shift in the course of history�a shift that could move
mountains in the CypherPunks' future�and in the Magic Circle's present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

? the Lunatic turned the page on a manuscript that had just been set down a
century in the future. He knew what the Magic Circle of that era knew, and
he knew what they needed to know to bring their desperate gamble to a
successful conclusion.

~~~

Gomez and the Dark Allies began their two-pronged attack on mankind through
the Wonderful World of Television. They had seen the hypnotizing power of
television, how it made us 'comfortably numb,' how it shaped our
world-views, our opinions, and our reality�eventually becoming our reality.

Zappa tried to warn us.

"Watch me and I'll bleed you, 'cause you eat the shit I feed you."

Fogherty just gave in, and accepted it.

"I know it's true. Oh, so true. I saw it on TV."

~~~

InfoWar was over before it even began.
After reading this passage, for the umpteenth time, ? the Lunatic finally
understood, with the help of those who had seen, and been, the living proof
of both this passage and another one which had leapt to his mind to start
him on his current train of thought.

"TV is REAL."
A bumper sticker that the Circle of Eunuchs had promulgated during the life
of the Author, knowing that not one person in ten thousand would understand
what it truly portended for their future.

"Real TV, Baby."
? the Lunatic petted her lovingly, as she licked his arm in return.

"Video_World, and TV_World. Those were the titles we had put to Part II of
'The True Story of the InterNet.' But that was before the censorship crisis
on the CypherPunks mailing list, when we saw the sticky, tangled tentacles
that lay at the root of the World Wide Web.
"And before Gomez began to build his Evil Empire on the cornerstone of
WebTV."

Baby looked up at ? the Lunatic as if wishing she understood human speech.
She laid her head down on his leg and drifted off to sleep as he continued
to talk to her, certain that, at some level, she understood what he had to
say.

"I saw it coming from a long way off, Baby. I thought about it, wrote about
it, and I even told others about it�" he could hardly believe what he was
about to say, �without ever really, fully, believing it myself."
"I thought everybody saw." he told her, massaging her spine as she slept. "I
thought people understood."

"I thought they were like me." ? the Lunatic continued, shaking his head in
sadness. "I thought that they saw, and understood, and were only putting
aside their knowledge until it began to matter enough that they must turn
back, and return to sanity, to reality�"

? the Lunatic sat in quiet meditation, searching his body, mind and soul for
the words he could speak which would, once and for all, make what he had
always known, become real. Real forever, never again to be forgotten in the
madness that ruled the land.

"TV is REAL!"
? the Lunatic had said it himself, long before Gomez had spoken those
prophetic words.
Long before it had quickly begun becoming a truism, with video recorders
capturing every aspect of life, and beginning to define life, itself. Before
'The World's Funniest Home Videos'�before 'Cops'�before the O.J.
trial�before 'Real TV.'

He had said it before Gomez, and he had said it better. And it lay somewhere
in the tattered ruins of his mind�calling him back to reality.

"All my lies are true."
He remembered! A two line poem by Carroll, the muse within.
"And everything I do, I really am."

When the bodies began dropping on TV, they dropped at our front door. But
the bodies on TV got up and went home at the end of the day, to their family
and friends, and they came back to do it all again tomorrow.
The bodies at our front door did not.

We watched 'other people' march for freedom. We watched 'other people' hate
them. We watched 'other people' kill for freedom. We watched 'other people'
die at their hands.
Then suddenly, without warning, it became us that we were watching.

"Vietnam, Baby." ? the Lunatic told her, as he watched her sleep peacefully,
in a world that was safe and secure.
"It wasn't them we were watching anymore, it was us. It was our fathers and
sons, our brothers and friends, our neighbors and those who lived on the
other side of our town. It was us who lay dying on a foreign shore. It was
our blood seeping into foreign soil.
"It was our blood being shed at Kent state, and us being gassed and beaten
at the Chicago Democratic Convention."

"O.J.�" he said, shaking his head, wondering where the years had gone since
Charles Whitman had climbed to the top of the University of Texas campus
tower and started blowing away total strangers�the inhuman ants who lay far,
far below him.
"A silicon chip slipped inside his head." ? the Lunatic had sung those words
with Kinky Friedman, at the 'Charles Whitman Memorial Reunion' gig in
Austin.

It was a shock to the whole nation. The televised 'event' had somehow
changed something sacred.
It meant that it was no longer safe to [Bang!] walk down the street; to
[Bang!] step out of a campus building, laughing with a friend; to [Bang!]
unload your musical equipment to set up for your gig at the Hole In The Wall
bar across from campus; to [Bang!] sit at home, safely, watching television
and not see people just like you, doing what you do every day, fall victim
to the random violence of a crazed stranger.

And O.J. brought it home, from far, far away, to our own doorstep, where the
bodies of those killed on the television dramas and movies lay dead, still.
But now the victims weren't dead. Nicole was screaming outside our door, her
throat slashed as she struggled with a determined attacker. She lay bleeding
on our walkway as a stranger, our son, came to her defense, only to meet a
savage and horrible death for trying to save our wife, our mother, our
daughter.
We were concerned when we watched the death of our heroes, as they fell to
crippling diseases from living lifestyles similar to our own; as they fell
from the pedestals upon which we worshipped them when they proved themselves
to be mere mortals, like us.
And now they were murdering us, our families, and our children. And they
showed no remorse�

"I might have been able to forget," ? the Lunatic told Baby, as she looked
up at him sleepily, nuzzling her head into the warm safety of his crossed
legs, "if it hadn't been for the CypherPunks."
"They just can't leave it alone. They won't lay down and die, like any sane
and normal person with half a brain."

It's not that the CypherPunks were all cynical�all contrary just for the
sake of being contrary. There were no shortage of list members who could
pull off that act, without acting, from time to time, but many of them were
actively working toward something. A goal, edification, erudition, a
project, a point of view.
But the crap just kept coming. The Privacy Thieves only wanted
ElectoAustria. Then they wanted ElectroPoland. Then they came to our town,
and they said they just wanted to protect us, but they needed to take our
guns, to keep us safe. They needed to listen to our phones to make certain
that they could protect us from unknown evils. They needed a key to our
door, so that they could save us, in an emergency�even if it meant saving us
from ourselves.
And they needed access to our letters, our conversations, our words, our
whispers, our thoughts and our minds�

"Nuke D.C.!"

Baby leapt to her feet as ? the Lunatic shouted so loudly that the walls
shook, and the windows rattled.
She began barking, in support. Jumping up and pawing his legs, trying to say
something, he was certain of it. She leapt time and time again, begging him
to understand�begging him to have 'ears to hear.'

"Nuke Ottawa, too!" he shouted, and Baby jumped up in his arms, and began to
lick his face. What a dog�what a wonderful fucking dog!

"I should have named you 'Killer.'" he said, as he gave her a bone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 16 00:58:54 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:58:54 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 11 / HTML
Message-ID: <341E35C8.67BC@sk.sympatico.ca>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 26234 bytes
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URL: 

From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Sep 16 17:35:58 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:35:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Elliptic Curve library for visual basic
Message-ID: <199709170032.RAA02508@proxy3.ba.best.com>


http://www.jim.com/jamesd/tools.htm

The cryptographic extension to Visual Basic contained a gross 
error:  I hope to reissue it with a fix in a couple of days,
probably Thursday 20th of September, if all goes well.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Tue Sep 16 02:48:10 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:48:10 +0800
Subject: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no bill
Message-ID: <199709160938.FAA25781@upaya.multiverse.com>




                          CORRECTED MESSAGE

[Adam Back has pointed out that I made a stupid mistake when I sent the
original version of this message, in that I failed before sending it to
delete some code, which Declan McCullagh had included in his message, as
I had intended.  I cannot reconstruct exactly how I came to make this
mistake, but suspect that it had to do with the fact that at the time I
sent it I was rushing to get to class and was having difficulty both
with my connection to my office machine and with my monitor, which tends
to flicker badly when someone uses a hair dryer or something like that
in the building where I live.

Here is what I had intended to send.  Please correct your records
accordingly.  I regret any inconvenience my mistake may have caused.]

------Text of Corrected Message

Adam Back writes:

: 
: Declan McCullagh  writes:
: > 
: > I was talking to someone after a law class this evening (we're covering
: > electronic privacy topics, but unfortunately we're not at crypto yet). He
: > suggested widespread civil disobedience. 
: 
: Might I suggest using RSA in perl:
 
[Adam Back's code for RSA in perl is deleted (but you can find it at 
 and in Declan's original message).] 
 
: which is now officially non-exportable (as reported by Peter Junger;
: he asked for serveral code examples and this one was one of the
: non-exportable ones).  Short enough to make them look silly, short
: enough that most people don't have qualms about quoting, or using as a
: .sig.  And they've committed themselves in writing to Peter Junger
: that you're not allowed to export it.

For the classification by the commerce department of the programs that
my Legal Attack Team submitted, and for the applications, see
.  

It is unlikely that we will be seeking further classifications in
connection with my suit, but it might be an interesting and useful
project---not involving civil disobedience---for some of you.  It
would be interesting to see exactly which encryption programs the
bureaucrats classify as encryption programs, and which they don't.
It would also be interesting to see if they give the same
classifications in response to requests by those who are not suing
them.

I must, however, warn you that it is not an easy project.  It cannot
be done by e-mail and you have to get numbered forms from Commerce
Department on which the applications must be submitted.  In fact,
the difficulty of applying for a classification or a license is one of
the many reasons for concluding that the export restrictions on
cryptography violate the United States Constitution.  

It would certainly be helpful if it turned out that that Commerce
cannot or will not respond promptly to classification requests made by
would-be publishers of cryptographic software who are neither
commercial publishers nor suing to enjoin the enforcement of the 
regulations.
 
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Tue Sep 16 06:27:30 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:27:30 +0800
Subject: GAK will probably be economically impossible
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709161324.JAA02545@cti06.citenet.net>



On 15 Sep 97 at 10:19, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>  In fact, even if all transactions remain book-entry ones, the exploding
>  total transaction volume and competition to make those transactions
>  efficient will make GAK economically impossible, because it provides no
>  tangible benefit to those who use cryptography for business. There's no
>  economic return on the additional cost.
> 
>  The cost of anything is the foregone alternative, and the cost of GAK
>  causes you to forego a lot of money and potential revenue and doesn't buy
>  you anything in return.

In the long term, you are right.  But taxation doesn't buy much in 
return that you couldn't buy by yourself either but they still do 
it...

But again, the incentives are differents from their standpoint...

Ciao

jfa






From trei at process.com  Tue Sep 16 09:21:18 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:21:18 +0800
Subject: US dissident in Sweden
Message-ID: <199709161557.IAA08349@toad.com>



> Date:          Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:51:46 -0700
> To:            Asgaard , cypherpunks at toad.com
> From:          Martin Minow 
> Subject:       Re: US dissident in Sweden
> Reply-to:      Martin Minow 

> At 2:06 AM +0200 9/16/97, Asgaard wrote:
> >The Dagens Nyheter reported yesterday that a US citizen,
> >Mr Ritt Goldstein, is in Sweden asking for political asylum.
> ...
> >The latest crypto policy news here says that Sweden will not
> >go along will mandatory GAK.  ...
> 
> I wouldn't count on Sweden as a haven for strong crypto or,
> in particular, untraceable anonymity. Also, the Swedish national
> police have quite a few skeletons in their closet with respect
> to personal integrity (look for references to IB, the
> "Information Bureau" or read the entire series of Sjovall/Wahloo
> "Martin Beck" novels.)
 
> Martin Minow
> minow at apple.com

It's hard to call; the Swedes do have an independent streak, at least 
at the national level. They're not in NATO, and have an independent 
defence, like Switzerland. They maintained (with mixed success) 
neutrality during WW2.

When I lived there (65-68', I was a kid), there was a strong and
popular anti-American sentiment, mostly based in opposition to
the Vietnam war. US deserters were given asylum, and I was taught to
identify myself as Canadian if the situation seemed appropriate (the
US embassy was bombed during my stay - made a mess of the front
hallway).

Peter Trei
trei at process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei at process.com






From canthony at info-nation.com  Tue Sep 16 09:31:51 1997
From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:31:51 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709161555.KAA12969@bitstream.net>



Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:31:46 -0400
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
From: Scott Carr 
Subject: Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone
Sender: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu

   I just heard this on CNN.  Apparently, the Cuban government has arrested
an alleged terrorist  for several hotel bombings.  They clain he was hired
by Anti-Castro forces in the US.  Now, for the relavant part for the list;
the Cubans also claim to have tapes of encrypted telephone conversations
between the bomber and his backers.  I do not know if the tapes are in the
clear of not.
   Nice to know that law enforcement can still make arrests even when
nasty, bad, encryption is being used.  I wonder if the Cubans asked the US
Governemnt for any keys....

   (I wonder if there had been escrowed keys, if the US Government would
have given them to Cuba.)

----- End of forwarded message from Scott Carr -----






From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 16 10:11:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:11:15 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709161555.KAA12969@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: 



At 3:36 AM -0700 9/16/97, Charles Anthony wrote:
>Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:31:46 -0400
>To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Scott Carr 
>Subject: Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>
>   I just heard this on CNN.  Apparently, the Cuban government has arrested
>an alleged terrorist  for several hotel bombings.  They clain he was hired
>by Anti-Castro forces in the US.  Now, for the relavant part for the list;

Ah, but he is not a "terrorist," then. Being hired by anti-Castro forces in
the United States automatically makes him a "freedom fighter." He's only a
terrorist if he works for Oceania, er, Eastasia, er, whomever we don't
currently like.

Had he blown up a Cuban airliner, as CIA-supported forces did a while back,
he would still be a freedom fighter. Had he sent a package of pamphlets to
Hamas to aid in their struggle against the Zionist occupiers, he would be a
terrorist.

Is it clear now?

>the Cubans also claim to have tapes of encrypted telephone conversations
>between the bomber and his backers.  I do not know if the tapes are in the
>clear of not.
>   Nice to know that law enforcement can still make arrests even when
>nasty, bad, encryption is being used.  I wonder if the Cubans asked the US
>Governemnt for any keys....
>
>   (I wonder if there had been escrowed keys, if the US Government would
>have given them to Cuba.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From hugh0015 at algonquinc.on.ca  Tue Sep 16 11:12:53 1997
From: hugh0015 at algonquinc.on.ca (ERIC HUGHES)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:12:53 +0800
Subject: Telephone bugging devices
Message-ID: <341EC69A.7909@algonquinc.on.ca>



I was wondering if you can give me infomation on how and where i can get
a non visible telephone bugging device. Cost as well.

Or a room bugging  device non visible as long as it can only be detected
by detecters






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep 16 11:23:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:23:57 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Cuban terrorist used encrypted phone (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709161759.TAA21804@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:
> At 3:36 AM -0700 9/16/97, Charles Anthony wrote:
> >From: Scott Carr 

> >   I just heard this on CNN.  Apparently, the Cuban government has arrested
> >an alleged terrorist  for several hotel bombings.  They clain he was hired
> >by Anti-Castro forces in the US.  Now, for the relavant part for the list;
 
> Ah, but he is not a "terrorist," then. Being hired by anti-Castro forces in
> the United States automatically makes him a "freedom fighter." He's only a
> terrorist if he works for Oceania, er, Eastasia, er, whomever we don't
> currently like.
> 
> Had he blown up a Cuban airliner, as CIA-supported forces did a while back,
> he would still be a freedom fighter. Had he sent a package of pamphlets to
> Hamas to aid in their struggle against the Zionist occupiers, he would be a
> terrorist.

 Had he said, "Nuke Havana.", he would be a freedom fighter.
 Had he said, "Nuke D.C.", he would be a Freeh->Dumb Fighter.

TruthMonger






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep 16 12:19:57 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:19:57 +0800
Subject: Sen. DiFi in the Merc 9/15 - Same old Same old
Message-ID: <199709161905.VAA28825@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote, quoting DiFi:
>"Encryption is already being used by criminals, terrorists, and drug
>cartels.  THe terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center had plans
>to blow up 11 American commercial airliners.  Encrypted files
>detailing these plots were found on one of the terrorists' computers.
>Imagine the tragedies that might not be prevented if Law Enforcement
>officials are unable to decode encrypted files when necessary."

Imagine how many tragedies could have been prevented if we had a
telescreen in every home and office.  Not just bombings, but murders,
spousal abuse, child abuse, drug use, uninformed political
decisions...

People have been making bombs and blowing things up for about 100
years.  Until now this has been a manageable problem without mass
surveillance.  What happened?  Did the price of fertilizer drop?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Tue Sep 16 13:19:23 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:19:23 +0800
Subject: Telephone bugging devices
In-Reply-To: <341EC69A.7909@algonquinc.on.ca>
Message-ID: <199709161946.PAA11536@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <341EC69A.7909 at algonquinc.on.ca>, on 09/16/97 
   at 01:49 PM, ERIC HUGHES  said:


>I was wondering if you can give me infomation on how and where i can get
>a non visible telephone bugging device. Cost as well.

>Or a room bugging  device non visible as long as it can only be detected
>by detecters

If you are intrested in this type of information you may wish to check out
the Servailance Mailing List. Information about the list is below:


Who are you? What's your specialty and/or interest? Let us know about your
company... What would you like to see on the list? Post it. Let us know...
 Do you have something to contribute? We'd like to hear it... 

We want to know EVERYTHING and ANYTHING about eavesdropping, surveillance,
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what, where, when, how & why... we want ALL the details... 

Do you have a question? Post it... A little free time? Help a member...

With the INCREDIBLE brain power on this list, 
someone should have the answer ;-) 

P.S. Don't be a LURKER... Members take the time to post info for us all...
 give something back... Don't just take... Your input/knowledge is
valued...

**************************************************************************
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- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 16 13:32:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:32:22 +0800
Subject: Toad.com is *not* the best choice to subscribe to!
Message-ID: 




I just spoke (on a 3DES secure phone--more on this later) to a friend, and
happened to mention some posts on the list. He hadn't seen them. Turns out
he's subscribed to cypherpunks at toad.com, and that site does not get traffic
from the distributed sites.

We've known this, but it bears repeating.

Whenever I see "cypherpunks at toad.com" in a message I'm replying to, I
change the "toad" to "algebra" (shorter than the other choices). So anyone
subscribed to the toad.com address is obviously not seeing the bulk of the
traffic going to algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com.

Unless toad.com wants to be part of the distributed system, it just ain't
the best place to subscribe to.

In other news, my Communication Security Corporation GSP8191 secure phone,
with 3DES (168 bits, keys negotiated with D-H, Johnson noise used to
randomize), works extremely well. A very slight hint of an echo, but almost
perfect voice fidelity.

This is from our own Eric Blossom, of course, and is being sold at his Web
site, www.comsec.com.

Very impressive.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 16 13:34:46 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:34:46 +0800
Subject: Cool high-tech toys -- the benefits of being press
Message-ID: 



(Too bad I can't go -- unless someone wants to give me a ride to the
"night demonstration" --Declan)

	All Day. MILITARY DEMONSTRATIONS - The Defense Department hosts a
media day at the Force Protection Equipment Demonstration at Quantico,
featuring exhibits more than 400 commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) force
protection and security products.
	Highlights:
	9 a.m. to 4 p.m. Interactive and static displays.
	9:30 a.m. Overview briefing.
	12:30 p.m. Buses depart airfield site for blast mitigation
demonstration at C-3 Demo range, and ballistics and non-lethal weapons
demonstrations at Range 3A, with return to airfield at 4:30 p.m.
	7:30-8:30 p.m. Night demonstration of infrared imaging, laser
devices and illumination equipment at the Murphy Demo Area, with
transportation from the airfield at 7 p.m., with return at 9:30 p.m.
	Location: Quantico Marine Base, Quantico, Va.







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 16 13:47:02 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:47:02 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 13 / TEXT
Message-ID: <341EEAFD.74EC@sk.sympatico.ca>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Subject: Anonymous TruthMailer Abuse
     Electronic Forgery Foundation

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Subject: Anonymous TruthMailer Abuse
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: billg at microsoft.com
From: TruthMailer 

X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B

X-Comments: "I am not an asshole, but I play one in real life."
X-Comments: "I don't make it up. I just make it better."

X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonger.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole
X-Comments: through a Cypherpunk remailer under the alleged
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.

X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer
X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and
X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)

X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- INFINITE
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is RANDOM
X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header FORGED
X-Remailer-Setup: Logging RIDICULOUS Messages
X-Remailer-Setup: No STRONGHOLD messages accepted

Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

William,
I have taken the liberty of sending a death threat to someone and
forging your name and digiture to it. (No need to thank me, I just
like to help out.)
I don't usually take this kind of arbitrary action (unless I'm
running low on meds) but I thought drastic measures were called for
when I came across evidence that your name is about to be sullied and
your business endangered, due to a plot between a psychotic lunatic
and an employee of yours who is an agent for a secret organization
which has been responsible for inspiring and supporting a wide range
of anti-technological terrorists, including the UnaBomber and the
genius behind the PS/2.

Who are these people, you ask? (I have extremely good ears.)
Bubba Rom Dos, TruthMonger and Blanc Weber.
All card-carrying members of the Circle of Eunuchs.

I have long suspected that a series of underground manuscripts titled
'The True Story of the InterNet' had, as their ultimate aim, the total
destruction of MicroSoft.

Sure enough, in Part III of the series, "InfoWar," the author, known as
TruthMonger, suggests:
~~~
"Video_World, and TV_World. Those were the titles we had put to Part II
of 'The True Story of the InterNet.' But that was before the censorship
crisis on the CypherPunks mailing list, when we saw the sticky, tangled
tentacles that lay at the root of the World Wide Web.
"And before Gomez began to build his Evil Empire on the cornerstone of
WebTV."
~~~

Part II, "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs," reveals the
role played by Blanc Weber in her subversive intentions to help in the
destruction of MicroSoft, with the goal of promoting her own secret
technologies.
~~~
Apparently, HydroCube storage technology had been in existence for some
time before its official announcement by BabyGates Technology. The Kid,
as she was called, had been the daughter, lover, or employee of the
richest man in the world, depending on which version of this era you
believed. Her star had risen, even as Microsoft's star had begun to
fall, mostly as a result of her development of the HydroCube, with its
nearly infinite data-storage capacity.
�
And now, Jonathan had reason to believe that the Kid had actually been
a member of the CypherPunks, masquerading under the pseudonym of
Blanc Weber.
~~~

So, as you can plainly see, it is only a matter of time before these
self-proclaimed Freeh->dumb Fighters decide to begin openly attacking
you with slanderous truths about yourself, Gomez and the Dark Allies,
the lady midget wrestler and the bed full of chickens, as well as the
role of Susan Canizales as your dietary aide.

Yes, I know...you are shaking in your boots at the prospect of these
facts coming out (complete with 4"x8" color graphics), but there *are*
actions you can take to thwart these dire possibilities.
Fortunately, Part III is being released on the cypherpunks at toad.com
mailing list, under the TruthMonger multi-user persona, who has formed
a secret alliance with the Cypherpunks' distributed persona, Anonymous.
Thus, if you act quickly, you might be able to strike first, writing
your own chapter of Part III and sending it to the Cypherpunks list,
anonymously, copyrighting it as "TruthMonger "
in order to piss in the face of the known list forger who is known to
be responsible for many of the chapters submitted. (Then you could sue
the bastard!)

In *your* chapter, you could give yourself any role you desired in the
history, present and future of humankind.
My suggestion would be to beat these rapscallions to the punch by using
the Taoist tactic of creating 'yourself' as an evil creature of your
own design--far more diabolical than even your enemies could imagine.

The Circle of Eunuchs would then be honor-bound, as cross-matchers
(under NLP theology), to assign you a role as a secret hero in a later
chapter, thus saving you the embarrassment of having to blow your own
horn to keep the Universe in balance.
Sameer, president of C2Net, is reportedly under heavy medication
by his physician as the result of the stress of trying to think of
something positive he can say about himself and his organization,
under the savage attacks against his corporation and his private person
by these evil conspirators.

In conclusion, I would add that it is traditional to reward/torture
the masochistic, paranoid schizophrenic who supplies many of the more
bizarre of the CoE's conspiracy theories, by adding some subtle hint
pointing to some future event in history, based on your own inside
knowledge. (The point being to make it glaringly obvious to crazed
conspiracy theorists, but something that will make them look like a
'lunatic' if they try pointing it out to normal people.)
An AT&T employee once made a prophetic claim in the series to an event
which proved to be true in concept, way off-base in details, except that
he inserted a reference to the Message ID number of the future email
he foresaw, and then released the announcement months later with a
Message ID that was the reverse of the foretold one...

Beware of white lipstick,
A. Fiend
(uuhhh...friend.)

Copyright "Martin Minow 
"Are you a man, or a Minnow?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Electronic Forgery Foundation
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The wild-eyed, disheveled figure sat hunched over the keyboard of his
laptop, frantically seeking meaning in the words that lay before him.

"Hello, Dimitri. How are you feeling today?"

The mad doctor furtively lowered the screen on his laptop, hiding his
important work from the prying eyes of his patient.

"Hello, Igor." Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM said, eyeing the patient
suspiciously.

"Please, call me Igor." the Kremlin spy replied, causing Dr. Vulis to
quickly search his mind and memory to recall their conversation to this
point. Nothing there�

Igor Chudov eyed the evil Doctor's laptop suspiciously, raising his eyebrows
ever so slightly, but enough so that Dimitri could tell exactly what he was
thinking. He could even tell what the patient's next words would be, in
regard to his excess use of power in the 'Home' to run his spambots.

Igor, speaking softly, then raising his voice as he leaned closer and closer
to Dr. Vulis, asked, "We wouldn't be writing a letter about our good friend,
SAMEER, would we?"

Dimitri jumped up in terror, clutching the laptop to his breast. They knew!
They knew about his regression into his paranoid C2Net conspiracy theories.
Now they would punish him again, possibly even going so far as to make him
install the Windows operating system on another of his UNIX boxes. Dimitri
steeled himself for the patient's verdict.

Igor relaxed, sat down on the edge of the table, and said, casually, "Just
kidding, Dimitri. I know that you're working on your EFF material."
Dimitri eyed Igor suspiciously, but Igor merely continued, "Don't worry
Dimitri, I am in favor of your creation of the Electronic Forgery
Foundation." He couldn't resist adding, "Very clever of you to plant all of
that evidence pointing toward Toto as the source of the plethora of
forgeries to the CypherPunks list."

A shit-eating grin spread across Dr. Vulis' face as he realized that, this
time, he had been caught for doing something he wouldn't be punished for.
Rewarded, perhaps?
Cautiously, Dr. Vulis asked Igor, "So can I have more medication? All of the
others in treatment here are getting better drugs than me, because they are
patients being treated by doctors. Why am I the only doctor being treated by
a patient?"

"Now Dimitri," Igor shook his head, negatively, "you are exaggerating again.
You know that John Young and Robert Hettinga are the only two here who are
getting better drugs than you, and it is only occasionally, when they share
a room, and then only in order to increase their pleasure when they engage
in�uuhhh�CypherPunk activities."

Dimitri got angry, as Igor knew would result from feeding his fantasies, "I
know what you're talking about!" Dimitri always got�uuhhh�'excited', when
this subject came up.
"They're sucking each other's cocks! This place is full of cocksuckers, and
the biggest one of all is cocksucker John  Gilmore !"

Igor enjoyed getting Dimitri worked up into a lather before leaving him to
continue with his openly-secret activities. As he closed and locked Dr.
Vulis' door, he shouted to him, "I'll have Ray Arachelian look in on you a
little later."

"Keep that murdering Armenian bastard away from me!" Dr. Vulis screamed in
terror, before becoming distracted by a passing fly and forgetting what it
was that he was so angry about.
No matter. He would get mad about something else, instead. After all, he was
a Freedom Knight. Being an angry, aggressive activist fighting valiantly
against petty nuisances that most people just ignore was a Freedom Knight
tradition.
Dr. Vulis opened up his laptop and bent over to attend to his important
work, once again.

Dimitri checked two names off of his list. The President, and the Big Kid,
BillyG.

Now that he had set up his unwitting shill, Toto�? the Lunatic, he reminded
himself�, by sending veiled threats to two of the most powerful figures in
the Freeh World, he would now begin to close his evil, circuitous trap by
turning his attention to pissing off other world leaders, with ? the Lunatic
acting as the exposed target, once again.
He had pissed off Apple Computers, as well, by attributing the anonymous
email to BillyG to an Apple employee. Now he would divert suspicion 'from'
himself by attributing this chapter of Part III 'to' himself, so that
everyone would think that it must surely be another forgery by ? the
Lunatic.

~~~
::
Anon-To: saddam_hussein at iraq.gov
Subject: Salman Rushdie

Dear Saddam,

Salman Rushdie is in hiding in Bienfait, Saskatchewan, living under an
assumed name after having had radical plastic surgery to disguise his
appearance.

He is trying to redeem himself with Allah by building a nuclear bomb with
which to nuke D.C., but he is inadequate for the task. However, do you
remember Lee Harvey Oswald? If not, then surely you are aware of Timothy
McVeigh�

~~~
Copyright "Anonymous "
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------








From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 16 13:52:32 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:52:32 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 13 / HTML
Message-ID: <341EEB40.2288@sk.sympatico.ca>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 11626 bytes
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URL: 

From runexe at ntplx.net  Tue Sep 16 14:00:17 1997
From: runexe at ntplx.net (Doug Geiger)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:00:17 +0800
Subject: Americans flunk constitutional quiz (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709152318.TAA15597@users.invweb.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> This is quite understandable.
> 
> There is very little teaching of the Constitution or of Government in
> public schools. Many years ago when I was in HS Civics entailed a 1
> semester course 1/2hr a day in your senior year. While American history
> may still be taught in the public schools it is done so by socialist who
> have no interests of enlightening their students of the reasons this
> country was founded or the philosophies that it is founded on.

Personally I had one semester of American Gov't, we had to memorize the
preamble (I know longer remember all of it, but I know the general ideas),
we studied the Bill of Rights (and the 14th Amendment), and the general
ideas of the constitution. While I don't think I got all the questions
correct on the quiz (some of the specific details, etc.), I know the
general ideas.

> We are paying today for allowing the socialist/statist taking control of
> the education of our children 30 yrs ago.

-- Run.exe
  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
                -- Albert Einstein
runexe at ntplx.net http://www.ntplx.net/~runexe/ PGP encrypted mail prefered






From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 16 14:47:06 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:47:06 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970911212546.0069c654@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap) jurisdiction;
> >they can issue ex parte orders giving police access to plaintext. Also
> >lets U.S. government coordinate with other governments in doing such.
> 
> Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> court?

Not that I know of, though I do know that U.S. District Court Judge Joyce
Green served on the FISA court for seven years.

Background: The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act established a
special, secret court of current Federal district court judges. They
approve warrants in secret hearings, with no opposing attorneys present.
The judges are required to be available 24 hours a day for emergency
hearings. Some happen in the middle of the night in the judge's home.

-Declan






From real_guy at dev.null  Tue Sep 16 14:55:57 1997
From: real_guy at dev.null (The Real Guy)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:55:57 +0800
Subject: New Developments in Fascist Mind Control
Message-ID: <341EFACC.4223@dev.null>



I have some amazing news to report!

  After considerable research, I have developed two technological tools
which can be used to manipulate and control the minds of practically
all living humans.
  One tool serves the purpose of seizing control of the individual's 
attention and putting them into a hypnotic state of consiousness where
they can be manipulated into a narrow mind-set.
  The other tool is designed to store and analyze a wide range of data
about every aspect of an individual's life, in order to enhance the
effectiveness of the first tool.

  While I initially had worries that these two tools might possibly be
used by people with bad intentions to seize control of mankind and
enrich themselves beyound belief, I found, after closer study, that 
the two tools I have invented already exist, and have not been used
for these evil ends, to date.
  Since TV's and Computers have not been abused, so far, in an attempt
by those greedy for power and money to manipulate the people into a
position where they can be enslaved and oppressed, I feel that there
is no possibility of this happening in the future, despite the ravings
of a few wild-eyed conspiracy theorists.

  I mean, get real, eh?

The Real Guy






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 16 15:03:39 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:03:39 +0800
Subject: SSZ is back up...
Message-ID: <199709162209.RAA00402@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Just a quick note that after a rocky start and some definitely weird ISDN
shenanigans we seem to be back up and steady.

Please don't be surprised if we have momentary lapses of reason over the
next couple of days fine tuning the system on this end.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Sep 16 15:33:02 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:33:02 +0800
Subject: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709162139.WAA00815@server.test.net>




Martin Minow  writes:
> EH: New Japanese phenonemon: tiny PKS cell phones. Teen-agers (who
> are driving lifestyle changes) all use them.

What is a PKS phone?

Does it have end to end encryption?  Or is it just a standard GSM
phone in a star-trek communicator style form-factor, or something
else?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <97Sep16.183447edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 amp at pobox.com wrote:

>   From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com
> > 
> > My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
> > on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
> > send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
>  
> which bugs would those be? key generation is pretty critical. i'd be 
> interested in any strange results you've found.

None specifically in PGP 5.0 or 2.6.2 itself, but I did find the
limitation of 13 bits on compression, that the MPI encoding would not
accept integers with leading zero bytes, but would with leading zero bits
(this was one obscure bug since I had to randomly generate a value much
less than the modulus), and the fact that an ElGamal key value causes
segfaults. I was implementing a library and found where my code and real
PGP didn't get along.  Some combinations aren't generated by PGP, and some
aren't accepted. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 16 15:52:51 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:52:51 +0800
Subject: SSZ Stability Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709162255.RAA01329@einstein.ssz.com>



SSZ Stability Test

No Reply






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 16 16:20:52 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:20:52 +0800
Subject: new remailer-politics mailing list (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709162320.SAA01449@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From owner-austin-cpunks at ssz.com Sat Sep 13 20:08:32 1997
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:55:44 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199709140055.TAA26578 at matrix.eden.com>
From: combee at techwood.org (Ben Combee)
To: austin-cpunks at ssz.com
Subject: new remailer-politics mailing list
Sender: owner-austin-cpunks at ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: austin-cpunks at ssz.com

------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) -------
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970913162941.03343264 at rboc.net>
X-Sender: support at rboc.net (Unverified)
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: 2600 at ninja.techwood.org
From: "Robert A. Costner" 
Sender: owner-2600 at ninja.techwood.org
To: 2600 at ninja.techwood.org
Subject: [SE2600] Remailer politics
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:29:41 -0400

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A new mail list is forming, called "remailer-politics".  You are welcome 
to use your nym or any address to join the list.  You are also welcome to 
create a new nym just for the mail list.  You of course are welcome to use 
your normal email address as well.  Anonymous mail to the list is very 
welcome, but obviously you must submit a nym or email address to be able to 
read the mail.

The list is called remailer-politics, and is run on majordomo.  We'd like to 
discuss the non technical issues of remailers.  I'm hoping the contributors 
to the list will be part users of remailers, and part people who have not 
used remailers.  Also, bear in mind I'm not the remailer administrator, so 
I'm looking to be educated as well.

Hopefully we will talk about remailers, laws, encryption, email and newsgroup 

abuse, privacy and anonymity.  Personally, I'd like to be able to walk away 
from the discussion thinking that I can better defend the concept of a 
remailer to someone who is anti-encryption, anti-anonymity, a lawyer, a 
judge, or even a nationally known pro-civil liberties person.

To join, send a message body of 

	SUBSCRIBE 
to 
	REMAILER-POLITICS at SERVER1.EFGA.ORG

If you have trouble, just email me and I'll manually put you on the list.  
Similar messages have gone out to other mail lists, newsgroups, etc.  Your 
subscriptions will be mix'ed in with the rest if you use your real address, 
so no one will know.  The list of list members will not be available for 
inspection.

Please join us, and help educate myself and others about the benefits of 
remailers.

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBNBr3sUGpGhRXg5NZAQHbcAIAj/vh+yX9osQ++X69Q75NztBcP7eGCnQi
6ETbNJqktQjmS02CSkhex2d3lz2htcJRZbaq4NysMdwybMNsRl5Amg==
=1SxI
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
------- end -------
-- 
Benjamin L. Combee (combee at techwood.org) 
...if the highlight of your day is prowling through signatures looking for
pithy quotes or neat phrases, then consider a career with the IRS or NSA...






From cynthb at sonetis.com  Tue Sep 16 16:22:48 1997
From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia Brown)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:22:48 +0800
Subject: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: <199709162139.WAA00815@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Martin Minow  writes:
> > EH: New Japanese phenonemon: tiny PKS cell phones. Teen-agers (who
> > are driving lifestyle changes) all use them.
> 
> What is a PKS phone?
> 
> Does it have end to end encryption?  Or is it just a standard GSM
> phone in a star-trek communicator style form-factor, or something
> else?

Could be a typo for PCS, which is similar to GSM but uses the 1.9 GHz band
instead of 900 MHz (GSM) or 1.8 GHz (DCS). Unfortunately, I don't think
there are dual-mode phones yet.

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb at iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From kentborg at borgX.org  Tue Sep 16 16:28:48 1997
From: kentborg at borgX.org (Kent Borg, remove X for real email)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:28:48 +0800
Subject: Spooks' New Charter
Message-ID: 



I've been thinking about the secret briefings the CIA/NSA/pick-your-TLAs
have given to folks such as the House National Security Committee, the
briefing that caused them to gut SAFE.  What did they say?  What are they
after?

Now, with the 50th anniversary of the CIA, there are some news stories such
as one I saw in the International Herald Tribune--also available at







From minow at apple.com  Tue Sep 16 16:48:15 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:48:15 +0800
Subject: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the CypherpunksSeptember Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: <199709162139.WAA00815@server.test.net>
Message-ID: 



>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>>
>> What is a PKS phone?
>>
>> Does it have end to end encryption?  Or is it just a standard GSM
>> phone in a star-trek communicator style form-factor, or something
>> else?
>
and Cynthia Brown replied:

>Could be a typo for PCS, which is similar to GSM but uses the 1.9 GHz band
>instead of 900 MHz (GSM) or 1.8 GHz (DCS). Unfortunately, I don't think
>there are dual-mode phones yet.
>

I think Cynthia is correct (I was transcribing Eric Hughes' Japanese
"trip report"). Eric was talking about a very small micro-cell phone
extremely popular with Japanese teenagers.

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com









From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 16 16:59:06 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:59:06 +0800
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=318329&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709170004.TAA01736@einstein.ssz.com>



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   Criminal Intellegence Eases Policeman's Lot
   
   Reuters
   16-SEP-97
   
   
   CAMBRIDGE, England, Sept 16 (Reuter) - Privately held Harlequin Group
   Ltd said it introduced a software product which harnesses artificial
   intelligence to speed up criminal investigations.
   
   The product, Harlequin Intelligence, displays criminal investigation
   data in graphical form. Artificial intelligence is used to break down
   witness statements into their component form and instantly links
   evidence to existing databases.
   
   The graphic displays allow a quick snapshot of the progress of an
   investigation.
   
   In a statement released at the Cambridge International Symposium on
   Economic Crime, Harlequin said the system discovers links or
   identifies associations that may not be immediately apparent to an
   investigator or analyst.
   
   ``Harlequin Intelligence is designed for use by major law enforcement
   and investigation agencies to combat many different types of crime
   including homicide, fraud and drug related offences. It is also
   designed for use in commercial business information environments where
   these powerful technologies can be equally applied to corporate
   business concerns,'' the Cambridge based company said in a statement.
   
   A spokesman declined to reveal the cost of the system or the company's
   sales targets but said the system had already been sold to the Los
   Angeles Police Department, a force in Florida, the U.S. Federal Bureau
   of Investigation, and four police forces in Britain.
   
   
   
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From E.C.C.Sheedy at research.kpn.com  Wed Sep 17 08:05:37 1997
From: E.C.C.Sheedy at research.kpn.com (Sheedy, E.C.C.)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: unsubscribing
Message-ID: 


Apologies for the e-mail but could someone please tell me how one
unsubcribes from this list as the recent changes have messed it up.
_______________________________________________________

Kamer     :   B40
    KPN Research
Telefoon :   +31-50-5822816                                     PO Box
15000
Fax           :   +31-50-3183110                                    9700
CD Groningen
Email       :   e.c.c.sheedy at research.kpn.com       The Netherlands
________________________________________________________________






From cpunks at www.video-collage.com  Tue Sep 16 17:07:35 1997
From: cpunks at www.video-collage.com (Cypherpunks Maintenance Account)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:07:35 +0800
Subject: your mail about Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709162359.TAA10021@www.video-collage.com>



----- Forwarded message from Unicorn -----

>From cpunks  Fri Sep 12 07:14:53 1997
Message-ID: <19970912124749.42396 at sequent.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:47:49 +0200
From: Unicorn 
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail about Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM.
References: 
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81
In-Reply-To: ; from Garrard, David on Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 08:27:59AM +0800
X-Files: The Truth Is Out There!
X-Disclaimer: Comments contained do not necessarily represent thoseof my current employer.
X-Copyright: Portions of this message may be subject to copyright.(c) 1994-1997 Hans "Unicorn" Van de Looy.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
Precedence: bulk

--- On Sep 12, Garrard, David apparently wrote --------------------------------

> Has anyone gotten a copy of the Dr Dobb's Cryptography CDROM outside the
> US yet ?

Nope.  But where did you hear that it was available inside the US
already?

> David Garrard

--- and thus sprach: "Garrard, David"  ------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With a Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========

----- End of forwarded message from Unicorn -----






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Sep 16 18:51:08 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:51:08 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970917013255.008617a8@pop.pipeline.com>



Lucky Green asked about judges of the FISA court, and
Declan named Joyce Green.

The Chief Judge of FISA is Royce Lambert, who gave talk 
on C-SPAN about the operation of the court at an ABA 
conference in D.C. a few months ago.

He made the point that few applications for electronic
surveillance are turned down by the court (of 8,000 
applications 12 were denied) because the judges coach the 
applicants until they get a request right. And that the DoJ 
teams are quite adept at complying with the court's 
requirements, because all pass muster first of a special 
office set up for that purpose.

Judge Lambert said the job is "a lot of fun" because
its deals with supremely critical events of national
urgency, and that all the judges involved really do like it, 
especially the secrecy and prestige of being part of one 
of the most exclusive groups in Washington. This is not 
a joke.

Indeed, the Chief joked that the court's role "may be 
constitutional." And then said that he'll probably get in 
trouble for the statement.

For how the snoop system is supposed to work see the 
Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act:

   http://jya.com/fis.htm  (107K)







From guy_real at dev.null  Tue Sep 16 19:13:19 1997
From: guy_real at dev.null (The Real Guy)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:13:19 +0800
Subject: Spooks' New Charter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <341F35A3.62BE@dev.null>



Kent Borg, remove X for real email wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking about the secret briefings the CIA/NSA/pick-your-TLAs
> have given to folks such as the House National Security Committee, the
> briefing that caused them to gut SAFE.  What did they say?  What are they
> after?
> 

      CIA-run agents who had infiltrated terrorist groups in recent
      years aided in intelligence gathering that helped prevent two
      attacks in the past seven months against U.S. embassies
      abroad, new CIA Director George J. Tenet told Congress
      earlier this year.
      Tenet declined to provide details of the operations, including
      where they occurred.

  I myself prevented at least two dozen attacks in the same period of
time, through use of strong crypto. Naturally, I decline to provide
details of the operations.
(Also, Jim Bell prevented four attacks on U.S. embassies through
 use of his AP Bot.)

      Reflecting new threats that face U.S. policymakers, major covert 
      actions are now being aimed at disrupting terrorist plans,
      stopping narcotics shipments or fouling up financial transactions
      of missile makers, sources said.

  Which helps to keep the CIA's competition in these areas down to a
minimum. (The definition of 'terrorist' in the 1997 CIA Lexicon is,
"Illegal activities business competitor.")

      For instance, computer hacker technology has been used to
      disrupt international money transfers and other financial
      activities of Arab businessmen who support suspected
      terrorists.

  And 'God only knows' (TM) what they do to dark-skinned businessmen
who support 'proven' terrorists.
  Does anybody remember what that reason they gave for promoting weak
encryption was? Didn't they say they wanted to control all of the 
money to keep the rich 'good' guys happy? Or was it the 4 Horsemen?

      Military research and development operations of
      hostile governments, such as North Korea, Iraq and Iran, have
      been sabotaged by having European, Asian and other suppliers
      sell them faulty parts that will eventually fail.

  Such as faulty parts for the U.S. Stealth Bomber that crashed at
an air show this week and the Iraquin hostage rescue helicopters.
  Hey! Wait a minute...!?!?

      "In the past five to seven years, the sophistication of the new
      tools of covert action have helped bring about a sea change in
      operations from the old days," according to a senior intelligence
      official. 

  "However, in spite of these earth-shaking advances in spying on and 
manipulating foreigners with all manner of nasty business, absolutely
no progress at all has been made in doing the same to U.S. citizens."
he quickly added, looking down at his shoes and blushing.

      "There are a large number of hidden activities going on
      to meet transnational threats," he said, "but I'm reluctant 
      to call them covert action." 

  OK, then call them murders, assassinations, crimes on foreign soil,
destabilization of dark-skinned governments, etc., etc.

      Tenet told reporters recently he was turning to "a world
      renown operator" who can "run quality operations that generate
      unique information" on which action can be taken.

  But not 'covert' action--just "hidden" action. (I'm certain that 
everyone on the C'punks list understands the difference.)

      In addition, new CIA and Justice Department investigations
      into past agency operations in Central America are expected to
      be released shortly, guaranteeing more criticism for the
      agency's cooperation with drug dealers who were also aiding
      Nicaraguan contra operations and for training Honduran
      special forces that later committed human rights violations.

  So, of course, we can expect to see a lot of former CIA agents being
put in jail, like other citizens who do even the smallest amount of
drugs.
  Say, wasn't President George Bush...never mind.

      And later this year, the CIA and Justice Department's
      inspectors general are to deliver their reports on allegations the
      agency operatives supporting the Nicaraguan contra rebels at
      the same time aiding Central American drug dealers who
      brought narcotics into the United States.

  Of course, Colonel Oliver North will be going to jail, along with
ex-President Reagan, for stealing an election by using drug money to
buy weapons for 'terrorists' in exchange for holding American citizens
prisoner until his inauguration day.

  Get real...
remove clothes for The Real Guy






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Tue Sep 16 19:36:57 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:36:57 +0800
Subject: Criminal Intelegence Eases Policeman's Lot
In-Reply-To: <199709170004.TAA01736@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

>    Criminal Intellegence Eases Policeman's Lot
>    
>    Reuters
>    16-SEP-97
>    
>    
>    CAMBRIDGE, England, Sept 16 (Reuter) - Privately held Harlequin Group
>    Ltd said it introduced a software product which harnesses artificial
>    intelligence to speed up criminal investigations.

"Repent Harlequin, said the Tick-Tock man."
>    
>    The product, Harlequin Intelligence, displays criminal investigation
>    data in graphical form. Artificial intelligence is used to break down
>    witness statements into their component form and instantly links
>    evidence to existing databases.

I expect tools like this to become more and more prevelent.  Especially
amongst items listed in RISKS.  

It is my imagination or are police getting more and more lazy?  There
seems to be a desire to find the one magic bullet that will end crime as
we know it, be it AI profilers, back doored encryption, a spy camera in
every bedroom, or whatever.

It is just as bad as management that tries to find the "one true
management fad" while spending the company into the poorhouse.  (In many
ways, that is exactly the same process here.  People in charge looking for
an easy way out...)

>    The graphic displays allow a quick snapshot of the progress of an
>    investigation.

I wonder what happens when the case does not fit the template provided...?

>    In a statement released at the Cambridge International Symposium on
>    Economic Crime, Harlequin said the system discovers links or
>    identifies associations that may not be immediately apparent to an
>    investigator or analyst.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a crossreferenced
database.

Of course, the investigation will only be as good as the data thrown into
it.  And if you misspoke or said something that was not 100% accurate,
that will be used against you later, when they need to wrap up the case.

>    ``Harlequin Intelligence is designed for use by major law enforcement
>    and investigation agencies to combat many different types of crime
>    including homicide, fraud and drug related offences. It is also
>    designed for use in commercial business information environments where
>    these powerful technologies can be equally applied to corporate
>    business concerns,'' the Cambridge based company said in a statement.

Orwell in the police force, Orwell in the workplace, Orwell in the living
room...

This reads like CNN bought the company's press release whole.  This is not
reporting, this is sales!

>    A spokesman declined to reveal the cost of the system or the company's
>    sales targets but said the system had already been sold to the Los
>    Angeles Police Department, a force in Florida, the U.S. Federal Bureau
>    of Investigation, and four police forces in Britain.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From azur at netcom.com  Tue Sep 16 19:40:38 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:40:38 +0800
Subject: what is a PKS phone? (Re: Notes from the Cypherpunks September Bay Area Meeting)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>>Could be a typo for PCS, which is similar to GSM but uses the 1.9 GHz band
>>instead of 900 MHz (GSM) or 1.8 GHz (DCS). Unfortunately, I don't think
>>there are dual-mode phones yet.
>>
>
>I think Cynthia is correct (I was transcribing Eric Hughes' Japanese
>"trip report"). Eric was talking about a very small micro-cell phone
>extremely popular with Japanese teenagers.

I think its more likely a typo for PHS, or Personal Hand-Phone System, a
Japanese micro-cellular system.

--begin
Churn Hits Japanese PHS Providers, Too

Astel/DDI/NTT Personal

09/12/97 The US isn't the only region facing problems relating to churn. In
Japan, the PHS providers have been swamped with an avalanche of
cancellations according to a South China Morning Post report. Sources at
three PHS companies, Astel, DDI and NTT Personal, say the cancellations are
a reaction to excessive promotion last year when the US$300 telephones were
handed out for as little as a yen each. "People who should never have
subscribed to a portable phone service were enrolled and now they are
canceling," DDI's Junichi Takahashi said. In addition, August is typically
a month for student cancellations, a large segment of the PHS subscriber
base, though one analyst said the quality of the service was poor.

The report indicates that hundreds of thousands of cancellations almost
cancelled out new orders last month, resulting in the lowest net monthly
increase to date of 62,000 units.

Analysts were not entirely convinced by the explanations offered. Deutsche
Morgan Grenfell analyst Naoki Sato said, "The PHS phones are of lousy
quality; you often get busy signals or else no signal at all and you cannot
use them in cars or trains, so people have begun switching to cellular
phones."

He said although some analysts expected the PHS system to perish within two
years, he thought it would survive as a tool for mobile computing.
--end

--Steve







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep 16 19:41:27 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:41:27 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under new SAFE act
Message-ID: <199709170217.EAA17187@basement.replay.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
 > > >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap)
jurisdiction;
> > Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> > court?
 
> Not that I know of, though I do know that U.S. District Court Judge Joyce
> Green served on the FISA court for seven years.
> 
> Background: The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act established a
> special, secret court of current Federal district court judges. They
> approve warrants in secret hearings, with no opposing attorneys present.
> The judges are required to be available 24 hours a day for emergency
> hearings. Some happen in the middle of the night in the judge's home.

  Also, you are not likely to see a FISA judge's name on a warrant.
Instead, you will see warrants by regular judges which are backdated
to dates such as, say...March 28 at 9:02 a.m.
  There are a variety of court systems within which they have the clerks
regularly 'skip' certain document numbers, leaving them with hard to
trace back-dated paperwork capabilities.

  This is a 'Democracy', which is why, in addition to secret police,
we also have 'secret judges', and 'secret executioners'. (Do we also
have 'secret voters'?)

Anonymous #23-2b
Cypherpunks Chief Spokesperson #328






From real_guy at dev.null  Tue Sep 16 21:28:24 1997
From: real_guy at dev.null (The Real Guy)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:28:24 +0800
Subject: Fuck them all. Lock and load. Rock and roll. / Re: Liberals and their tacit
Message-ID: <341F56E0.1CFE@dev.null>



Tim May wrote: 
> >> It's war. Too late for a public relations campaign so that some future
> >> Congress will slightly relax their laws.
> >> And in a war, gotta break some eggs.

> Perhaps if it were J. Edgar Hoover doing this instead of Democrat Louis
> Freeh, we wouldn't see "nominal" liberal Ron Dellums, amongst so many
> others, standing shoulder to shoulder with the fascists. (Not that I ever
> though Dellums was anything other than a fascist, mind you.)
 
> Perhaps if it were former CIA director George Bush pushing this (in his
> alternate universe second term) there would be more outrage from liberals.

> I'm beginning to think Federal Bureau of Inquisition Director Unfreeh must,
> as rumors have long had it, have the goods on Janet Reno and Bill Clinton.
> Left to our imagination what these items may be.

  I know for a fact that the Spooks had nothing to do with Richard
Nixon recording every dirty deal that took place in the White House.
I know for a fact that they certainly wouldn't use all that criminal
information for blackmail.
  I know for a fact that they wouldn't spy on politicians and major
financial figures, or take advantage of nefariously gained information
in order to increase their money and power.

  People who smoke dope, dodge the draft, commit adultery, and perform
financial fraud while govenor get to be elected President all the time,
and nobody ever tries to 'control' them, or manipulate them in any way.

I know all of this because I'm
The Real Guy,
"I used to be The Bad Lie until I got caught cheating at golf
 and was nominated for the Presidency."






From attila at hun.org  Tue Sep 16 22:49:10 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:49:10 +0800
Subject: Brit conference asks for more cyberspace violations
Message-ID: <199709170543.XAA21563@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

*** Fraudbusters seek fresh angles as cybercrime grows

Crimebusters must devise more ingenious ways of combating fraud and
will need new international policing powers to stem a rising tide of
high-tech economic crime, experts say. Delegates at an economic crime
conference in Cambridge, England, this week complained they lacked
the tools and power to take the fight to the organized criminals
whose only barrier was the speed of their modems. Culprits were hard
to pin down, said Rosalind Wright, head of Britain's Serious Fraud
Office. It was harder still to "swat the fly-by-nights," she said.
See 

    http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=4974072-ff5

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNB9t9704kQrCC2kFAQGLEQP/Xo9+l5MV3KE3X1X7hCdJpaWr8gprctKR
jIm2k+2RwHIVBT9IzQ0s/VEWI+8ftO43b18qlYYdbyiSGCPnJsoZtXOmivTTdcg3
U8FAJNTrbILZ4lcTYbxsAUm0U12xc4flOjK16UWzKrI3gli8Y/YPO2hMbxkBcH6P
aknorOx6BpY=
=1+3N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Sep 16 23:59:15 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:59:15 +0800
Subject: Brit conference asks for more cyberspace violations
Message-ID: <772ef0aac71b65fcbf6218e499734f8c@anon.efga.org>



>Crimebusters must devise more ingenious ways of combating fraud and
>will need new international policing powers to stem a rising tide of
>high-tech economic crime, experts say. Delegates at an economic crime
>conference in Cambridge, England, this week complained they lacked
>the tools and power to take the fight to the organized criminals
>whose only barrier was the speed of their modems.

Perhaps encryption could be used as a means of fraud prevention.







From ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca  Wed Sep 17 04:02:56 1997
From: ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca (Six)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:02:56 +0800
Subject: [Fwd: Please Archive]Please Archive
Message-ID: <341FB2A9.61F5@sk.sympatico.ca>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 3534
URL: 

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 17 04:11:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:11:36 +0800
Subject: E-Cash
Message-ID: <199709171057.MAA06386@basement.replay.com>



Tim May has been a source of endless embarassments to his sympathizers on 
and off the net.

      Tim May
    /-+-- --+X
   />        <\






From ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca  Wed Sep 17 04:37:01 1997
From: ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca (Six)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:37:01 +0800
Subject: Decrypted / Like mom used to say...
Message-ID: <341FBD6A.7610@sk.sympatico.ca>



+OK 5688 octets
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Message-ID: <341FB0A5.5E4C at cypherpunks.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:27:49 -0600
From: Canadian Jam Remailer 
Reply-To: remailer at cypherpunks.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01A  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Like mom used to say...
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::
Anon-To: president at whitehouse.gov

Dear Yankee Asshole,
  You ever hear of Noriega, Shit For Brains?
  In case it has slipped your mind, he is the fucker
that the U.S. used as an example that it is legal and
righteous to invade another country and capture the
criminals in power, bringing them back to your own
country to imprison and try for their crimes.

  This means YOU, asshole!
  Are you hard of fucking hearing, eh? Maybe you should
have paid closer attention to Big Bad John Chretien
when he informed the world as to who the biggest fucking
criminals are in society.
  This means YOU, asshole!

  You think that YOU are going to tell CANADIANS what 
we can and can't do in our own fucking country?
  Guess again you piece of shit.

  Like mom used to say, "If I've got to come down there,
son, you are in big, big trouble."
  So get back in your own bed and go to sleep, pal, if
you know what's good for you.
  If we have to come down there and bring your ass back
for trial, I don't think you can count on your citizens
to back you up. (At least not the ones who are hanging
on to their fucking guns, and the ones that aren't can
kiss our big blubbery Canadian butts.)

  So why don't you keep your fucking nose out of our
business and concentrate on disarming and imprisoning
the only citizens you have left who are capable of
defending you if the Canadian government decides that
it is time to see some justice done to the criminals
in D.C?
  And while you are at it, you might consider treating
the Canadian you have taken hostage in Camp Pendleton
the same as you would treat present Presidents who
didn't go overseas to murder strangers for Big Oil.
  Tell Randy that if we come for you, we will stop by
Camp Pendleton and pick him up, too. I don't think that
the drug-addict rapists that currently comprise the
majority of your armed services are going to put up
much resistance. They know that they will go back to
jail when they get out of the services, anyway.

Your Canadian Pal,
Canonymous






From stutz at dsl.org  Wed Sep 17 07:20:47 1997
From: stutz at dsl.org (Michael Stutz)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:20:47 +0800
Subject: Divx
Message-ID: 



>From :

Divx Protects Content, But Not Your Liberties
			
The ability to create pristine copies of any digital work is seen as a
threat by some Hollywood studios, which are experimenting with a new
pay-to-play DVD format to protect their intellectual property. This format,
Divx, could conceivably hobble the video rental business, but some see its
real threat as an invasion of consumer privacy - and the freedom to view
information anonymously.






From mailhost at aol.com  Wed Sep 17 23:18:14 1997
From: mailhost at aol.com (mailhost at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:18:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Your Credit Report
Message-ID: <10899982YYZ25037@6065workathome.com>





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Message-ID: <199709173570GAA51917@ans.com>



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rs 



I 'spose it's gettin' to be time that we ditched them 512 bit keys and
them 40 bit keys. :)  The very existance of a 2.6GHz CPU - yes freon
cooled is more than enough...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:08:40 -0500
From: "Kirk R. Erichsen" 
Reply-To: AlphaNT at beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
To: AlphaNT at beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
Subject: Re: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled


According to trade reports, the 21264 will be available at 800MHz by mid 98
but the die size (a .25 micron die) will need a signficant shrink to make
the speed practical (heat and power consumption will be monsterous).  It
will need a die shrink to a .15 or .18 process in order for 800MHz + Alpha
CPUs to be inexpensive enough to produce in volume. A smaller die size
increases the number of chips that are "good" per waffer and decreases the
finished chips power consumption and heat dissipation.  Other methods for
dealing with CPU speed (which don't address power or heat directly) include
using CMOS alternatives like BiCMOS and Gallium Arsenide.  Gallium Arsenide
is very expensive, and the element Gallium is a rare earth element, so high
production using it is not possible.  

As for the existing Digital freon "lab" chips, the 1.2GHz frequency has
actually been surpassed twice already, with some reports saying that the
last test with a non-production (beta 21364?) chip reached 2.6GHz. I don't
know if at that frequency the processor was at sub-zero (in Celsius)
temperatures, but it was at least a liquid nitrogen machine.  One question
no one seems to ask is "how fast were the external buses to memory and
cache running on these testbeds?"    

Xray lithography has already produced (in very limited quantity) operable
memory and processors with die sizes of below .000001 microns, a size that
could accomodate about 1000 21264 processors  in a package that would
appear to be little more than a single "chip."  

The problem with implementing Xray lithography is that almost none of the
existing process tools for producing chips can be used.  The precise photo
lithography masks (most of which are used with ultra-violet light) don't
work anymore (Xray just goes right through) forcing you to use alloys of
lead, bismuth and zirconium in the masks, a considerably more expensive and
complex method.  Ionizer units and other tools would have to be built for
dealing with incredibly low tolerance.  

When Xray lithography is finally implmented, there will be a quantum lead
in the frequency (multi GHz) while simulataneously reducing power
consumption and heat dissipation.  SMP and massively parallel machines will
be portable boxes that will weigh only slightly more than the case and
screen (if the TFT panel itself does not fall prey to light weight
projection glasses) force it to be.   

The other option for new memory and processor devices is to "grow" them.
Nanotechnologies that may be available in the next 10 years could allow
microscopic machines in combination with biologic engineering could produce
processors and memory of sizes at or below those of Xray lithography, with
significant implications in other industries as well. 

One issue very rarely addressed in trade mags is the system bus speeds for
the system bus (or any seperate cache, memory and I/O buses).  Without a
fast external bus speed, the system cannot necessarily provide more usable
performance, particularly when memory becomes bottlenecked and saturated
even at todays low frequencies.  High internal CPU frequency does can not
provide a linear increase in performance in and of itself.  At about
400MHz, you have reached the maximum frequency an electrical bus can run.
The next option for connecting the system bus to the processors is through
optical buses.  Optical buses don't suffer from the interference and noise
that electrical buses do, and can operate at up to many thousands of GB
without the error rates.  Optical buses will connect all cache, memory and
storage devices (directly without I/O adaption) in multiple segments with
parallel access to all devices.  The problems with doing this are the speed
of the embedded switches which convert electrical signals into optical
pulses are currently much too high in latency.  A die shrink, the use of a
high speed silicon or GA switch (or some new Selenium technology) could
make the speed between electrical and optical buses practical.   

The other implication of more advanced methods for producing memory and
processors is that the sluggish mechanical disk drive becomes totally
obsolete.  Massive non-volatile memory storage could be added to a system
directly off the memory bus without the need for additional I/O buses.
Hologramic optical storage devices (which store data as an image in 3D
space) will replace most of the mechanical drive based multi-terrabyte
installations with multi exabyte storage that will be 1000 smaller than
existing storage devices. The entire world could place all its currently
existing data and archives into a hologramic memory device the size of a
lunch box.  If it all sounds far fetched, its been proven possible already.
Lets give it 10 years.   




At 10:41 AM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I talked with a tech from DEC here in Massachusetts and yes, I can
>confirm that they did get 1.2 Gig but it was cooled with a liquid
>nitrogen containing fan system, which cooled the chip considerably, but
>not below freezing point.  The FPU was very bad at this temp though

Kirk R. Erichsen	
LAN Manager/Communications






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 17 11:13:21 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 02:13:21 +0800
Subject: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:37 AM -0700 9/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>I 'spose it's gettin' to be time that we ditched them 512 bit keys and
>them 40 bit keys. :)  The very existance of a 2.6GHz CPU - yes freon
>cooled is more than enough...

As Ray knows, processors are getting more powerful at a very slow rate.
Mere doublings and triplings in speed are what we're seeing in the newer
generations of processors. (And these require multibillion dollar wafer
fabs to build.)

A 400 MHz Pentium II, or a 767 MHz Alpha, or whatever, is significant for a
lot of business applications--faster transaction processing, better video
processing, etc.--but it ain't meaningful for breaking ciphers.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:08:40 -0500
>From: "Kirk R. Erichsen" 
>Reply-To: AlphaNT at beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
>To: AlphaNT at beauty.mke.ra.rockwell.com
>Subject: Re: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled
>
>
>According to trade reports, the 21264 will be available at 800MHz by mid 98
>but the die size (a .25 micron die) will need a signficant shrink to make
>the speed practical (heat and power consumption will be monsterous).  It
>will need a die shrink to a .15 or .18 process in order for 800MHz + Alpha
>CPUs to be inexpensive enough to produce in volume. A smaller die size

I predict DEC will eventually shift from the Alpha, despite its nice
architecture, to the Intel line of processors. Many of us believe the DEC
lawsuit, and Intel's countersuit, are negotiating cards in DEC getting a
better bargaining position.

>increases the number of chips that are "good" per waffer and decreases the
>finished chips power consumption and heat dissipation.  Other methods for
>dealing with CPU speed (which don't address power or heat directly) include
>using CMOS alternatives like BiCMOS and Gallium Arsenide.  Gallium Arsenide
>is very expensive, and the element Gallium is a rare earth element, so high
>production using it is not possible.

This is pure bullshit. The "rarity" of a so-called rare earths material has
nothing to do with the economics of production. GaAs is available. What is
important is that the overall knowledge about silicon production is so much
better, from a production standpoint. And that at small geometries the
distinction  between Si and GaAs tends to vanish.

No comment on the rest of the article, which is just speculation about
x-ray, nanotech, etc.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cme at cybercash.com  Wed Sep 17 13:26:43 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:26:43 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970917161510.03264cb0@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:10 PM 9/15/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>AMENDMENTS TO H.R. 695
>OFFERED BY MR. WELDON AND MR. DELLUMS
>
>Strike Section 3 and insert the following:
>
>SEC 3. EXPORTS OF ENCRYPTION.
>	(a) EXPORT CONTROL OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS NOT CONTROLLED ON THE UNITED
>STATES MUNITIONS LIST. - The Secretary of Commerce, with the concurrence of
>the Secretary of Defense, shall have the authority to control the export of
>encryption products not controlled on the United States Munitions List.
>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.

I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

Is anyone starting a campaign to get congressfolks to kill both McCain-Kerrey
and the amended SAFE?

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From ceo35 at concentric.net  Thu Sep 18 05:15:19 1997
From: ceo35 at concentric.net (James)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Computers at wholesale, Pentiums & AMD(k-5,k-6)
Message-ID: <199709181833PAA41174@post.att.net>


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From amanda at intercon.com  Wed Sep 17 14:26:43 1997
From: amanda at intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:26:43 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709172113.RAA07535@mail.intercon.com>



> I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
> and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

Looks like a separation of powers problem at first glance; how many
situations are there where the legislative branch and the executive
branch can collude to take the judicial branch out of the loop entirely?


Amanda Walker
Ascend Communications, Inc.
amanda_walker at ascend.com






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Wed Sep 17 14:31:18 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:31:18 +0800
Subject: Telephone bugging devices
Message-ID: <199709172122.RAA10572@www.video-collage.com>



At 01:49 PM 9/16/97 -0400, ERIC HUGHES wrote:
>
>I was wondering if you can give me infomation on how and where i can get
>a non visible telephone bugging device. Cost as well.
>
>Or a room bugging  device non visible as long as it can only be detected
>by detecters
>
>
Radio Shack.  It's called a FM Wireless Microphone.
You can probably get one for less than 20 bucks.
You can then take the shell off of this, probably a little black rectangle
or a childs toy microphone, and you will have a nie little circuit board.
Battery life is a problem, but you can work out a solution to that depending
on where you put it.
Hide it either on the underside of surfaces below eye level or on the top
surfaces of objects a foot or so above head level.

They sell some more dedicated hardware out of the back of magazines like
popular science and popular mechanics.  Look for advertisements that claim
that thier product can BROADCAST UP TO A HALF MILE and show a picture of
something next to a quarter.






From cox+ at transarc.com  Wed Sep 17 14:42:19 1997
From: cox+ at transarc.com (Ben Cox)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:42:19 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: 



Carl Ellison says:
>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>
>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

-- Ben







From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Wed Sep 17 14:51:09 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:51:09 +0800
Subject: Biological Warfare
Message-ID: <199709172143.RAA12527@www.video-collage.com>



I came up with an idea for fighting GAK.  Biological warefare.
This is a tried and true formula for war.
The Europeans used it to great effect against the Native Americans in the
form of Rabies and Smallpoxs.
The Europeans even used a form of it even earlier, throwing the rotting
corpses of dead horses into beseiged cities to spread desease.
The more modern chemical warefare has been used in both world wars and
possibly by Saddam Hussain during the Gulf War.
What I propose is a virus.
For GAK to work, there have to be lines of code in the encryption program to
give the government access.
It has been commented here that anyone who can get the source code can
comment those lines out.
Let's be frank, very few will have that option.
However, a software patch could be made that commented out the offending
code of any given product.  Perhaps also altering some visible part of the
program so that you know that your conversations are now secure.  Perhaps
the addition of a small ascii character to the corner of the screen.
The program that delivers the patch could be made in the form of a rather
innocuous computer virus.  Or, if you prefer, a worm.  This way, the program
can travel the same highways of silicon that the GAKked messages travel to
deGAK the software that it targets whenever it encounters it.
Give the software a relatively short lifespan, on the order of a year or so,
before all copies check thier date and decide to self destruct.  No need for
the virus if the software has been upgraded.  Then you'd need a new version
of the virus.

The project would be a large one as persons would have to get ahold of the
source.  Probably through decompiling it and figuring out what the now
undocumented source does at each step.  The actual virus would be easy to
code by comparison.
This should not preclude fighting the onset of GAK, rather the functional
incorporation of GAK.  What is the government going to do with 50,000
americans who have been using unGAKked software because they didn't know
that it had been infected?
Keep the visual clue as small as possible, maybe an extra period in a line
of periods.  That way an argument can be made for ignorance of the crime.
That is all.






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Wed Sep 17 14:57:11 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:57:11 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709172141.RAA12455@www.video-collage.com>



At 04:15 PM 9/17/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
...
>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
>
>Is anyone starting a campaign to get congressfolks to kill both McCain-Kerrey
>and the amended SAFE?
...
I sent an e-mail to my representative, Mr. J. C. Watts Jr.  Regrettably, he
is on the national security board, so I don't hold out much hope of
converting him.
I presented him, however inelegantly my words, with the currently popular
housekey escrow with the IRS.  I also presented another of security cameras
in everyones homes for looking in occasionally.  Finally I asked that he
watch 1984 and warned him about not watching it in the company of minors.
Maybe he'll watch 1984, BECAUSE it has nudity, though.






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Wed Sep 17 14:59:39 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:59:39 +0800
Subject: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970917145126.03a55970@mail.io.com>




This would probably be a pretty interesting complaint to read, if there are
any DC-area cypherpunks who feel like making a trip down to the courthouse ..

>Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:55:42 +1000 (EST)
>Date: 17 Sep 1997 09:49:50 -0000
>From: proff at suburbia.net
>X-Loop: lacc at suburbia.net
>Resent-Sender: lacc-request at suburbia.net
>To: lacc at suburbia.net
>Resent-From: lacc at suburbia.net
>X-OS: FreeBSD3.0-current
>X-Mailing-List: 
ftp://ftp.suburbia.net/pub/mailinglists/lacc/archive/latest/1018
>X-Subscription: To unsubscribe from this fine mailing list mail
lacc-request at suburbia.net with Subject: unsubscribe
>Subject: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
>
>Real-To:  proff at suburbia.net
>
>
>
>SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The CIA and other spy
>agencies have systematically tapped the phones of
>overseas  Drug Enforcement Administration offices,
>according to a class action lawsuit agents filed
>Thursday in Washington.
>
>The lawsuit, which also names the National Security
>Agency and the State Department, seeks a court
>order barring those agencies from any further
>wiretapping.
>
>"These agencies have a pattern and practice of
>eavesdropping on DEA agents' and employees'
>conversations while they are serving the government
>overseas," said attorney Brian Leighton of Clovis, Calif.
>
>But legal experts say it could be a difficult lawsuit to
>win, especially since an employer - in this case the
>government - generally has a right to listen to employee
>conversation on office phones.
>
>It also doesn't help that national security was involved
>and that courts have held that U.S. citizens don't have
>constitutional rights overseas.
>
>``It's an uphill battle. It's going to be a tough suit,'' said
>constitutional law expert Paul Rothstein of Georgetown
>University.
>
>The lawsuit was filed on behalf of all DEA agents,
>but the agency itself was not part of the action.
>
>The only DEA agent named as a plaintiff in the suit
>is Richard A. Horn, currently with the agency's New
>Orleans bureau. Five other incidents involving other
>unidentified agents are alleged.
>
>Two years ago Horn filed a lawsuit accusing U.S.
>officials of undermining his anti-drug efforts in Burma.
>
>That suit is still pending.
>
>Leighton said subsequent contacts with other DEA
>personnel revealed a pattern of similar abuses around
>the world.
>
>CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield said he could not
>comment directly on the class action lawsuit, but
>defended his agency.
>
>"It is not the CIA's mission, nor is it part of the
>operations of the agency, to surveil in any manner
>U.S. officials, or other U.S. citizens at home or
>abroad,'' Mansfield said.
>
>The only exception would be in counterintelligence
>cases, he added, and then only in consultation with
>senior Justice Department officials.
>
>DEA spokesman James McGivney said he could not
>comment on pending litigation, but noted that as a
>U.S. citizen, Horn had the right file his own lawsuit.
>
>John Russell, spokesman for the Justice Department,
>which defends the other agencies in lawsuits,
>said only, ``we will respond in court.''
>
>In Horn's previous case, Leighton said, the Justice
>Department angered DEA agents by claiming they
>have no Fourth Amendment constitutional right
>against wiretapping when working outside the
>country.
>
>Leighton, a former federal prosecutor, said the
>lawsuit doesn't address the reasons for the alleged
>electronic eavesdropping.
>
>"My assumption is because they want to know
>what DEA is doing, they want to rip off DEA
>informants, they want to know DEA contacts
>within foreign governments,'' Leighton said.
>``And with the Cold War over, these agencies
>are looking for a new mission.''
>
>An April 1996 letter to agents by Horn and
>Leighton, details the allegation of wiretapping
>against the agent in Burma.
>
>Horn's residence ``was the target of a U.S.
>Government Agency-sponsored electronic audio
>intercept,'' it said.
>
>"Horn had occasion to see a cable containing
>his words in quotation marks, that he had spoken
>to another DEA agent, set forth exactly as stated...''
>
>The suit also reports alleged wiretaps against
>DEA agents in the Dominican Republic from
>1987 to 1990, in May 1993 and September 1994
>at the Bangkok, Thailand office; at the Guatemala
>City office in 1984, 1985 and from 1987 to 1989;
>and in an unidentified location in April 1987.
>
>The suit, assigned to U.S. District Judge Harold H.
>Greene, names as defendants Secretary of State
>Warren Christopher, CIA Director John Deutch
>and NSA Director Adm. J.M. McConnell.
>
>
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From f_estema at alcor.concordia.ca  Wed Sep 17 15:11:20 1997
From: f_estema at alcor.concordia.ca (f_estema at alcor.concordia.ca)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:11:20 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Ben Cox wrote:

> >I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
> >and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
> 
> How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
> subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

Didn't Patel rule late last year that that sort of restriction was
nonsense? 






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Wed Sep 17 15:14:48 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:14:48 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970915161036.00b98760@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970917150154.00879b70@mail.io.com>



At 04:15 PM 9/17/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 9/15/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>AMENDMENTS TO H.R. 695
>>OFFERED BY MR. WELDON AND MR. DELLUMS
>>
[...]
>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>
>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

As I remember _Karn_ (sorry to hand-wave, am behind a very slow net
connection at the moment), it's primarily a challenge to State/BXA's
decisions with respect to a particular export license application. The
sentence above from the Weldon/Dellums amendment would eliminate that sort
of challenge.

Congress cannot eliminate challenges like those in _Bernstein_ and _Junger_
which are challenges to a statutory/regulatory scheme on the grounds that
it is unconstitutional. The only way to avoid/eliminate judicial review of
a constitutional challenge to a statute is to amend the constitution
itself. (cf. the "no offensive flag-burning" amendments which are discussed
from time to time, which are unconstitutional when expressed as ordinary
statutes or as administrative regulations, see _Texas v. Johnson_ and _US
v. Eichman_.) 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From smb at research.att.com  Wed Sep 17 15:20:36 1997
From: smb at research.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:20:36 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709172209.SAA21905@postal.research.att.com>



	 Carl Ellison says:
	 >>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of 
	the
	 >>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products 
	under
	 >>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
	 >
	 >I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and 
	Junger
	 >and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
	 
	 How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks 
	 is subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

I'm sure one of the real lawyers will add a lot more detail.  However...

The way something can be beyond judicial review is if it's purely an
executive branch function.  You can sue, of course, but in order to
overcome that argument you'd have to show that either the function
wasn't executive branch-specific, *or* some other constitutional right
is being violated.

To see how a judge can rule on such an issue, have a look at the trial
court's opinion in the Karn case.  You can find that opinion at
http://venable.com/oracle/oracle7.htm, according to Karn's page (I was
unable to confirm that link just now).






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 17 15:37:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:37:55 +0800
Subject: SSZ is back...
Message-ID: <199709172231.RAA04529@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

SSZ has been down the last few hours because of a non-functioning ISDN line.
Seems to be back up now.

On with the show...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 17 15:54:11 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:54:11 +0800
Subject: Biological Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199709172143.RAA12527@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:43 PM -0700 9/17/97, Sean Roach wrote:
>I came up with an idea for fighting GAK.  Biological warefare.
>This is a tried and true formula for war.
>The Europeans used it to great effect against the Native Americans in the
>form of Rabies and Smallpoxs.
>The Europeans even used a form of it even earlier, throwing the rotting
>corpses of dead horses into beseiged cities to spread desease.
>The more modern chemical warefare has been used in both world wars and
>possibly by Saddam Hussain during the Gulf War.

While I support your general goals, the idea of releasing Sarin or anthrax
or other agents near the warrens of the burrowcrats in Washington is likely
to backfire. Although the rodent extermination might succeed, the rodents
have a prodigious ability to breed more of themselves. It's not clear that
calling in the Orkin man to rid the infestation in the Congress will
accomplish anything.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 17 16:13:58 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:13:58 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917161510.03264cb0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:24 PM -0700 9/17/97, Ben Cox wrote:
>Carl Ellison says:
>>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>>
>>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
>
>How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
>subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

To all responding to Carl's comments, we talked about this last week.

It is clear that the law cannot preclude Supreme Court rule, of the law
itself. It is also likely that any particular target of the surveillance
could challenge the basic constitutionality of the law.

Cf. last week's traffic on Cypherpunks.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 17 16:15:13 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:15:13 +0800
Subject: Summary of FBI talk @ MIT, Sept 10
Message-ID: <199709172310.BAA27739@basement.replay.com>




Date: 17 Sep 97 17:35:20 -0400
From: Request Admin 
Subject: Summary of FBI talk September 10, 1997 
To: BBLISA Announce 

###############################################################
Summary of FBI talk held September 10, 1997 7-9p.m. 
Room 395 MIT E-51     ---- HES [Heidi Schmidt]  hschmidt at phx.com 
###############################################################

Note: I did not write down Steves' address but you can get it from the site. :)

Concepts discussed regarding cybercrime....
T.O.E  (Tool, Object, Evidence)

       Tool-- You are used to get to the target
       Object-- You are the target
       Evidence -- Evidence of the crime
C.I.A  ( all pertaining to data and your rights to have the following...)
       Confidentiality of data 
       Integrity  of data 
       Availability of data

The url for 
Subsection 1030. Fraud and related activity in connection with computers
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/1030_new.html

This subsection protects three types of computers within institutions:
1) Financial based institutions using computers
2) Governmental based institutions using computers
3) Foreign commerce or Interstate commerce transaction based institutions 
   using computers 


The url for 
Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section CCIPS
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/index.html

Contact information for CSI 
http://www.gosci.com
telephone: 415 905 2370

Since spam and other security issues cropped up as sub topics 
I am mentioning other urls that
may prove helpful in the long run.

Additional sites of interest regarding security and spam:
Spam
http://spam.abuse.net
http://www.cauce.org

Web security
http://www.nmrc.org/faqs/www/

Sage resources (including security)
http://www.usenix.org/sage/sysadmins/sysadmin_resource.html

These are only but a drop on the planet, but they are a start.


###############################################################
The next announcement will be regarding the development of the 
BBLISA web site currently beign hosted at 
http://jthome.jthome.com/~bblisa 
###############################################################
       


Heidi Schmidt
hschmidt at phx.com
UNIX Systems Administrator-Webmistress
The Boston Phoenix Media Communications Group





--
Send mail for the `bblisa' mailing list to `bblisa at bblisa.org'.
Mail administrative requests to `majordomo at bblisa.org'.






From xlj16twqzxy at 18934.com  Thu Sep 18 10:55:24 1997
From: xlj16twqzxy at 18934.com (xlj16twqzxy at 18934.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Truth About E-Mail Marketing
Message-ID: <>


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is intended for the exclusive, private use of registered participants
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information contained in the ResponseMail E-Mail Marketing System
in whole or in part without expressed written permission.

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From xlj16twqzxy at 18934.com  Thu Sep 18 10:55:24 1997
From: xlj16twqzxy at 18934.com (xlj16twqzxy at 18934.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Truth About E-Mail Marketing
Message-ID: <>


******************************************************
NEW  ====> ResponsEmail Marketing System
******************************************************
http://www.windansea1.com/rem.htm


Interested in Marketing Your Product or Service by Direct E-mail?

STOP chasing overhyped software, bogus mailing companies and dead ends, and get the e-mail marketing secrets of the PROS, in ONE comprehensive package!

Whatever Your Product, Service or Budget, ResponsEmail Delivers RESULTS!

INCREDIBLE DISCOUNT... Limited Time Only!


<><><> What You Get <><><>

Directory of top bulk e-mail servers and ISPs, where you can mail without losing your account. Includes secure POP accounts, CGI-scripts, web hosting, autoresponders, etc.

Reliable sources for mailing lists; how to generate your own targeted lists in real time, virtually eliminating undeliverables! Even mail to prospects while they're actually online. It simply doesn't get any more immediate than that!

Free e-mail address list consortium, where to find free Remove lists, and more!

Where to find affordable bulk mail software tailored to your budget. From free and shareware to mega-mailer clients. ResponsEmail will have you up and running in no time!

How to mail to AOL... the latest tips and strategies! How to send custom messages to AOL members, AOL hot spots for bizop and business-to-business e-mail addresses, and more!

USENET newsgroups that are safe to post ads and extract addresses

How to bulk e-mail for MAXIMUM RESULTS. E-mail is a very unique medium, and requires a unique approach. Learn how to distinguish yourself from the crowd, create rapport and gain the trust and confidence of your prospects. Write killer ads that attract an AVALANCHE of response (ResponsEmail has generated response rates as high as 70 percent!) 

One million fresh, filtered bulk e-mail hot list... a $99.95 value... FREE!

Special limited edition copy of my newly published book, "The Kitchen Table Millionaire," including PowerSecrets! Packed with inside, proven marketing strategies, information and resources!

A wealth of free resources and tips: secret e-mail marketers' organization, how to filter your mailing lists with Microsoft Excel, easy way to make banners for your Web site, reduce your Web graphics up to 90%,  and more!

***********************************************************************

What would you expect to pay for such a complete, proven,
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$1,000?
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during this special, limited-time offer!

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<><><> Legal Stuff <><><>

The ResponseMail E-Mail Marketing System is copyright 1997, and
is intended for the exclusive, private use of registered participants
only. Upon acceptance and registration, you must agree to sign a
Non-Disclosure Agreement upon payment of the $59.95 (U.S.)
application fee, which legally precludes you from revealing the
information contained in the ResponseMail E-Mail Marketing System
in whole or in part without expressed written permission.

As soon as you complete and return the Non-Disclosure
Agreement, you will receive the ResponseMail software, server
contact information and complete tutorial by e-mail, including
support by telephone and e-mail.

Please print, complete and rush with your payment of $59.95 to:

Windansea Publishing
8070 La Jolla Shores Drive, Suite 243
La Jolla, CA 92037

**********************************************************************
[  ] Yes! I want the e-mail marketing secrets of the pros! I am
enclosing my check or money order for $59.95. Please rush
the complete ResponsEmail Marketing System, including free
1 million hot list, THE KITCHEN TABLE MILLIONAIRE and
PowerSecrets bonus!


Name ___________________________________

Address _________________________________

City ____________________________________

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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 17 20:20:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:20:55 +0800
Subject: SSZ Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709180324.WAA07505@einstein.ssz.com>



Check Check

Test

No Reply






From dbhait at juno.com  Thu Sep 18 11:51:53 1997
From: dbhait at juno.com (dbhait at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: >>>AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO PARENTS!!  PLEASE READ!!<<<
Message-ID: <199709181840.OAA29801@mail.network2.net>


I love my Son!!

When he is away I want to talk to him on a regular basis.  Unfortunately, when he calls home collect
is cost me over $1.00 per minute, plus surcharges.  I would attempt the old switcho-chango, having to refuse the collect call and call him back, but that still added up to over .20 cents per minute.  Significantly cheaper, but still expensive, and a pain in the rear.

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2)  An 800 or 888 number direct to my house for only $1.50 per month with the same 9.9 cent rate!
3)  A NO SURCHARGE calling card, with rates as low as 17 cents per minute!
4)  1+Long Distance Dialing so I didn't have to enter 26 additional numbers to get out!
5)  Simple Billing, right on my current phone bill
6)  Up to 40% Savings on International Calls
7)  Nearly 90% Savings on Phone Cards compared to ATT, MCI, or Sprint!!
8)  A Motorola Pager that works throughout the Entire United States!
9)  Best of All..A 100% FREE Business Opportunity where I can generate a Large Second Income!!

Well I took the offer and now my Long Distance Bills are cut in half or more!!!  And the best part is, I get to talk to my son as often as I want without worrying about how much it's going to cost me.

Now it's only 3 weeks later...I took my friends advice on the FREE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY, and already I have 34 people signed up, and they get the same savings as me, as well as the FREE OFFER!!
And what rewards!!!  I get 2% commission on everybodies long distance bill that I refer, and that others refer.  If I tell only 3 people and they tell only 3 people, I will be earning thousands of dollars a month, every month!!

Do you have kids away at school?  Have your kids grown and moved out of state?  What about the rest of your family?  When was the last time you took a good hard look at your phone bill?

Isn't it time to start saving money?  

Whether you're interested in the business or not, I encourage you to accept this invitation!  Here's another invitation!!!  GET A FREE $10.00 PHONE CARD and test the service, it won't cost you anything. And if your interested in joining my success team, I'm going to offer you the following to help you get started!

1)  A FREE Personalized Web Page
2)  FREEDOM Bulk Emailer worth over $400.00
3)  CHECKR Software worth over $200.00
4)  A Very Large Contact List of Names
5)  A FREE Marketing Kit, including sample letters and templates
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7)  A list of over 2000 sites on the Internet to advertise FREE or close to FREE!
8)  and Much, Much More!

If you're interested in an immediate response for more information, please respond to netbiznis at answerme.com.

If you would like me to send you more information, send me your name, address, phone number, and email address to fretel at juno.com or call me at (414) 669-3722.

Thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you soon. 

Respectfully Yours,

Dan Hait
ID# AH603800
(414) 669-3722
fretel at juno.com






From pgp at pgmedia.net  Thu Sep 18 12:31:39 1997
From: pgp at pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PGMedia Challenges U.S. Government's Claim	   To Control Of The Domain Name System
Message-ID: <1337528708-8726891@MediaFilter.org>


Press Release
September 18, 1997


PGMedia Challenges U.S. Government's Claim
   To Control Of The Domain Name System


NEW YORK, NEW YORK:     PGMedia, Inc. d/b/a name.space(tm), the New
York-based company which sued Network Solutions, Inc. ("NSI") (the holder
of the monopoly in commercial Internet Domain Name Registrations) for
violations of U.S. antitrust laws in March of this year, has amended its
Complaint in that case to join the National Science Foundation ("NSF") as a
party-defendant.  While PGMedia steadfastly believes that the National
Science Foundation has no authority to restrict or forestall the complete
opening of the Domain Name Registration market which PGMedia seeks in its
case against NSI, over the last three months, the NSF has injected itself
into the Domain Name dispute by claiming (on behalf of the U.S. Government)
to exclusively control the Domain Name System.  The NSF has exerted this
control to prevent NSI from acquiescing in PGMedia's demand for access to
the market.  Again, PGMedia believes that the NSF possesses no such control
or authority, but even if it did, such actions have the clear effect of
limiting freedom of expression in the first and foremost avenue of speech
on the Internet -- the Domain Name.  Thus, either the NSF has no authority,
and NSI should be allowed to comply with Federal and state antitrust law in
settling with PGMedia, or the NSF must, pursuant to the First Amendment to
the U.S. Constitution, acquiesce in PGMedia's demand to unlimited and
shared Top Level Domain Names.

The name.space(tm) Service

PGMedia's name.space(tm) service(http://namespace.pgmedia.net) was launched
in August 1996 to offer Internet Domain Name Registration Services in
competition with NSI under virtually unlimited Top Level Domain names.
That is to say, while NSI has forced Internet users to register their names
under .com, .net and .org, name.space(tm) offers the full range of
expression, in virtually any language, in the top level namespace.  In
addition, and significantly, name.space(tm) claims no exclusivity with
respect to the right to register under any TLD.  Indeed, PGMedia has
developed software and code to allow multiple registries to register names
under the same TLD.  Unfortunately, until NSI changes the so-called "root
zone file" (or directory of directories) which resides on its root name
servers, the name.space(tm) top level domain names will not be universally
resolvable on the Internet.  Until NSI makes that change, only users who
have visited the name.space(tm) web page and downloaded the self-executing
application which points their browser to the name.space(tm) servers first
can use a name.space(tm) domain name.

PGMedia sues Network Solutions
to Open the Domain Name Market

In March 1997, after NSI refused PGMedia's request that reference to the
name.space(tm) name servers be added to the root zone file, PGMedia sued
NSI in Federal District Court in the Southern District of New York seeking,
among other things, to compel NSI to add the name.space(tm) TLDs and
nameservers to the root zone file.  Initially, NSI refused, claiming that
Dr. Jon Postel, of the so-called Internet Assigned Numbers Authority
("IANA"), was the only person who could add a TLD to the root zone file.
However, after several discussions with PGMedia and its counsel, NSI
proposed allowing unlimited TLDs, but only if the National Science
Foundation had no objection.  PGMedia has consistently contended that the
NSF has no more of a place in this debate than any other interested party,
and could not act to arbitrarily limit speech in the top level name space
even if it did. In June and again in August of this year, the NSF informed
NSI that the NSF controlled the root zone file, and that the NSF could not
allow NSI to comply with Federal and state antitrust laws in granting
PGMedia's reasonable request.

With today's addition of the National Science Foundation to the case, the
issue of who ultimately controls the Global Internet is squarely before a
Court of competent jurisdiction.  In addition, the arbitrary restriction by
the U.S. Government of freedom of expression in the top level name space
may soon finally come to an end.

For more information, contact: law at pgmedia.net
                                                 Or call (212) 677-4080







From geeman at best.com  Wed Sep 17 21:33:09 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:33:09 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970916210354.006cecd8@best.com>



This seems to ignore a possible worst-case scenario, in which the only
products which are ultimately approved wrap the key using a special law
enforcement key, for example.  If the Powers that be can mandate "escrow"
--- really GAP, Gov't Access to Plaintext --- then it can be mandated to
take a particular form that is defined to be tractable.

At 05:25 PM 9/15/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>At 8:41 AM -0700 9/15/97, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
>>If I have to GAK my keys, and there then exists a pgp-gak, then we simply
>>recruit the same CPU power that generated the millions of DES keys to just
>>run pgpk-gak with the shortest keylength and send billions of keys to the
>>GAKserver each week.  Many from out of the US if pgp-gak becomes available
>>there.
>>
>>My test software uses a loop that generates a new pair every few seconds
>>on a pentium (and found some very obscure bugs).  I would be required to
>>send all those to the gak.gov.  If they really want them...
>>
>>What it probably means is the govenrment will issue keys or have to
>>license people to create them.
>
>"There ain't no such thing as free escrow."
>
>Some fee will be collected to register keys. "To defray costs" (never mind
>that the government is the party _requiring_ the damned escrow!).
>
>This will stop the "flooding attacks" which a free key escrow system would
>generate. It will also, sadly for us, put an end to many applications where
>keys are generated quickly, transiently, and on an ad hoc basis. There
>simply will be no time to register the keys, and the $10 (or whatever)
>processing fee will be unacceptable for these applications.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>






From geeman at best.com  Wed Sep 17 21:35:49 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:35:49 +0800
Subject: Escrow system design query
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970916211744.006cecd8@best.com>



There is no one "key escrow backbone network"
There's a link on my page @ www.best.com/~geeman to the Key Recovery
Demostration Program, and 
the infrastructure study task group ... have a look there at what's going on.

At 08:03 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Michael Wilson wrote:
>
>Does anyone know of a solid document out there in the web that actually
>describes the proposed key escrow backbone network?  After wading through
>considerable junk in the search engines (my, but the net is wordy on the
>topic), I didn't turn up anything that looked like architecture.
>MW
>
>
>






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 18 12:46:21 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FC98 Call for Participants
Message-ID: 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



C A L L   F O R   P A R T I C I P A N T S
Financial Cryptography 1998 (FC98):
The world's only financial cryptography conference, exhibition, and
workshop.


FC98 Conference
February 23-26, 1998

FC98 Exhibition
February 23-27, 1998

FC98 Financial Cryptography Workshop
March 2-6, 1998

The Inter-Island Hotel
Anguilla, BWI


Conference Reservations: 


FC98 is currently sponsored by:
- ---------------------

Offshore Information Services 
e$ 
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla 
C2NET 

If your firm would like to sponsor FC98, please see below, and contact
Julie Rackliffe, the sponsorship manager, at 
for further information.


What is FC98?
- -------------

FC98, the world's only peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography,
will be held Monday through Thursday, February 23-26, 1997, at the
Inter-Island Hotel on the Caribbean island of Anguilla.

In conjunction with the conference, the Inter-Island Hotel will also be
the site of an intensive 40-hour workshop for senior managers and IS
professionals the week after the conference (March 2-6), and a
concurrent exhibition of financial cryptography products and services
during the entire week of the conference itself, February 23-27.

The goals of the combined conference, workshop, and exhibition are:

- -- to provide a peer-reviewed forum for important research in financial
cryptography and the effects it will have on society,

- -- to give senior managers and IS professionals a solid understanding of
the fundamentals of strong cryptgraphy as applied to financial
operations on public networks, and,

- -- to showcase the newest products in financial cryptography.

In addition, time has been reserved in the afternoon and evening for
sponsored corporate presentations, functions and activities, and for
business
networking.

Conference participants are encouraged to bring their families.


The Conference
- --------------


Ray Hirschfeld, the conference chair, has picked an outstanding group of
professionals and researchers in financial cryptography and in related
fields to review the papers for this conference.

They are:

Chair: Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Co-Chair: Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ,
USA

Matt Blaze, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Florham Park, NJ, USA
Antoon Bosselaers, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
Yves Carlier, Bank for International Settlements, Basel, Switzerland
Walter Effross, Washington College of Law, American U., Washington DC, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld, CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Alain Mayer, Bell Laboratories/Lucent Technologies, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Moni Naor, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel
Frank Trotter, Mark Twain Ecash/Mercantile Bank, St. Louis, MO, USA
Doug Tygar, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Moti Yung, CertCo LLC (formerly: Bankers Trust E-Commerce), New York, NY,
USA


The actual agenda of the conference will be determined by the papers the
program committee selects. The conference committee is selecting papers in
what it considers the union, rather than a strict intersection, of the
fields of finance and cryptography.

For last year's program please see .

Original papers are being solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general, including:


    Anonymous Payments                      Fungibility
    Authentication                          Home Banking
    Communication Security                  Identification
    Conditional Access                      Implementations
    Copyright Protection                    Loss Tolerance
    Credit/Debit Cards                      Loyalty Mechanisms
    Currency Exchange                       Legal Aspects
    Digital Cash                            Micropayments
    Digital Receipts                        Network Payments
    Digital Signatures                      Privacy Issues
    Economic Implications                   Regulatory Issues
    Electronic Funds Transfer               Smart Cards
    Electronic Purses                       Standards
    Electronic Voting                       Tamper Resistance
    Electronic Wallets                      Transferability

Proceedings of Financial Cryptography 1998 will be published by Springer
Verlag in their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.

For further information on the submission process, please see the program
committee's web-page at .


Last year, the conference was been covered by The New York Times,
Institutional Investor, the Financial Times, Wired Magazine, NHK Japan, and
other media. In addition, financial cryptograpy and several of last year's
conference participants and sponsors were the subject of a cover story in a
September issue of Forbes Magazine.

If last year's interest in this conference is any indication, it is
probably a good idea to register for FC98 and make your plane and hotel
reservations as soon as possible, as conference, workshop, and exhibit space
is extremely limited, and we anticipate selling out all three events.

The price of a pass to the conference sessions and exhibits is US$1,000,
with discounted rates for full-time academics and students of $250 and
$100 respectively.  You can pay for your FC98 conference ticket with
Visa or MasterCard, or any of a number of other internet commerce
payment protocols, at the regstration site, .

The price includes breakfast and lunch. Internet connectivity will also be
provided at the conference site.


The Exhibition
- --------------


The FC98 Exhibition is an exclusive trade show for financial
cryptography products and services. The trade show floor will be open
from 9:00 am to 5 pm the entire week of the conference Monday through
Friday, February 23-27. In addition, the conference facility will be
open for commercial presentations and demonstrations in the afternoons
Tuesday through Thursday, and all day on Friday. Each booth will have
high bandwidth access to the internet, and will get 3 conference passes.
Booth prices start at $5,000 US. Please contact Julie Rackliffe at
 for further information. As space is limited,
please reserve your space as soon as possible.


The Workshop
- ------------

We are again honored to have Ian Goldberg as the leader of the FC98
Financial Cryptography Workshop, which will run one week after the
conference, March 2-6, 1998.

Ian, the cryptographer at Berkeley who is now famous (in articles in the
Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and Forbes) for breaking several
financial cryptography transaction protocols, will be running an intensive,
5-day workshop for senior managers and technology professionals.

While the workshop is still being developed, and will depend on the
skills of the planned participants, Workshop topics will include, but
not be limited to:

Overview and background of cryptography
Survey of existing and proposed Internet payment systems
Details on some specific payment systems
Issues involved in setting up a secure Internet site
A step-by-step walkthrough of setting up a digital bearer certificate mint.

Ian has recruited a strong roster of instructors with credentials
similar to his own, and, as he plans to maintain a 5-1 student/teacher
ratio, the size of the Workshop will be restricted and advance
registration will be required.

Further information about the Workshop can be found at:



The planned price for the workshop is $5,000. This covers lab space,
hardware, network access, software, meals, and, of course, 40 hours of
instruction and structured lab activity. The lab itself will be open 24
hours a day.


Sponsorship Opportunities
- -------------------------

FC98 offers sponsorship opportunities at all levels. Businesses are
encouraged to be an exclusive sponsor for lunch or dinner in conjunction
with a networking/recreational activity of some kind. Sponsorship provides
corporations with a unique opportunity to get their message heard by the
best people in the field of financial cryptography, and to gain
unprecedented exposure for their business.  Sponsorships start at
$10,000, and include one booth, discounts on additional booth space, 5
conference passes, mention of your company in all FC98 communications
(like this one), and a sponsored lunch or dinner and
networking/recreational activity for the conference participants.

In-kind sponsorship is also available, with opportunities for companies
to provide networking, bandwidth, software, hardware, radio packet
modems and equipment, as well as web-design and print services,
and transportation.

The sponsorship contact is Julie Rackliffe .



Air Transportation and Hotels
- -----------------------------

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done via San Juan, Puerto Rico, or
St. Maarten. There are several non-stop flights a day from various US and
European locations to St. Maarten. Connection through to Anguilla can be
made through American Eagle, or through LIAT, not to mention a short,
inexpensive ferry service from St. Martin to Anguilla. See your travel
agent for details. American Eagle Airlines has agreed to increase their
flights as needed to accomodate any extra traffic the conference brings to
the island.

There is also discussion of a "crypto-plane" charter making a
transcontinental run from San Jose to St. Maarten by way of Las
Vegas, Minneapolis, and JFK/New York. We're still working on it. Let
Robert Hettinga  know if you're interested
in this idea.

Anguilla's runway is 3600 feet, with a displaced threshold of 600 feet,
and can accomodate business jets.

Anguilla import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again, so, as long as you take it with you when
you leave, you won't pay import duties on the things you bring.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about
hotels on Anquilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at
.


Registration for FC98
- ---------------------

Again, to register and pay for your ticket to FC98 see:



For information the selection of papers for FC98 see:



If you're interested in exhibit space, please contact Julie Rackliffe:



If you're interested in sponsoring FC98, also contact Julie Rackliffe:



If you're interested in the FC98 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS
Professionals, see:





See you in Anguilla!



The FC98 Organizing Committee
- -----------------------------

Vince Cate and Bob Hettinga, General Chairs
Ray Hirschfeld and Matt Franklin, Program Chair and Co-Chair
Ian Goldberg, Workshop Director
Lynwood Bell, Exhibition Steering Committee Chair
Julie Rackliffe, Exhibition and Sponsorship Manager


FC98 Sponsors
- -------------

Offshore Information Services 
e$ 
Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, Anguilla 
C2NET 
See Your Name Here: 


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 17 22:46:16 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:46:16 +0800
Subject: GAK over GAP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970916210354.006cecd8@best.com>
Message-ID: 



At 9:07 PM -0700 9/17/97, geeman at best.com wrote:
>This seems to ignore a possible worst-case scenario, in which the only
>products which are ultimately approved wrap the key using a special law
>enforcement key, for example.  If the Powers that be can mandate "escrow"
>--- really GAP, Gov't Access to Plaintext --- then it can be mandated to
>take a particular form that is defined to be tractable.

By the way, I hope this "GAP," or "government access to plaintext," term
does not spread too widely. (A couple of people were using it at the
Saturday Cypherpunks meeting.)

While perhaps technically correct, it loses some of the simplicity of the
"government access to keys" meme. And people already understand what "keys"
are...trying to explain "plaintext" to lay audiences is another barrier to
getting our point across.

Besides, I'm not entirely convinced that the proposed versions of unSAFE
won't also give access to keys.

So I suggest we stick to GAK. It also has the right onomotopoetic
etymology, which GAP surely does not have.

--Tim

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tien at well.com  Wed Sep 17 22:49:22 1997
From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:49:22 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>At 2:24 PM -0700 9/17/97, Ben Cox wrote:
>>Carl Ellison says:
>>>>Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
>>>>Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
>>>>this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
>>>
>>>I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
>>>and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?
>>
>>How could that possibly be binding?  Anything the court system thinks is
>>subject to judicial review is subject to judicial review.

This is not entirely correct.

I haven't thought about this for a while, that is, since we passed this
hurdle in Bernstein in April '96 -- how time flies when you're fighting
State, Commerce, NSA, and Justice.  IEEPA, as yet, lacks a preclusion
provision; they'll stick one in if they can.

We faced the issue under AECA/ITAR; 22 USC Sec. 2778(h) is designed to
preclude judicial review of export decisions.  I argued that Bernstein's
case nonetheless could be heard, because:  (i) he was challenging the law
itself, not a licensing decision; (ii) he had a constitutional claim.
Judge Patel took the latter route.

It is almost a contradiction in terms to say that a constitutional Q can't
be heard by a court.  The Supreme Court has made it difficult to preclude
judicial review of constitutional claims -- we relied on Webster v. Doe,
involving a discrimination claim against CIA, and CIA had a decent case
that the DCI has unreviewable discretion to terminate someone.  Judicial
review wasn't precluded.

The federal courts are, however, courts of limited jurisdiction.  While the
Supreme Court is built into the Constitution, its appellate jurisdiction is
greater than what Article III specifies.  Moreover, the lower federal
courts exist because Congress created them - they have the jurisdiction
that Congress set in the various Judiciary Acts.  There are nasty,
difficult Qs about how much Congress can do with that power.  It's pretty
deep federal court jurisprudence stuff, and one possible answer is that the
state courts are the final line of defense, because they are courts of
general jurisdiction.

But as a practical matter I'd say that Congress would need to amend SAFE
much more even to have a fair chance of precluding judicial review of a
First Amendment claim.  That's one reason why Bernstein is an important
case.

Lee Tien









From ranger90 at MNSi.Net  Wed Sep 17 23:22:57 1997
From: ranger90 at MNSi.Net (D.S.McLean)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:22:57 +0800
Subject: "The Life And Times Of One Average Man"
Message-ID: <18161.235690.77236933 cypherpunks@toad.com>



 Dear Friend :    I appreciate your taking the time to look at what I have to offer. This 
mail message is for the sole purpose of showing people how I can can help them;     
NOT with money, fame, or building their front deck.

 I am an average person like many of you, I have no special powers and I don`t 
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 I will be straight forward and quite frank with you. I have written a book about many 
issues people face when they have experienced some sort of tragedy in their lives. 
I offer the reader to see and share in the experiences that I myself faced as both a 
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 For me life began as it would for many other children growing up in what seemed to 
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It was not long before I encountered a life shattering injury that change my life, as 
well as the lives of those around me forever.
  
In this autobiography and self-help book I will bring you down the road of my 
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 Most importantly I will share with you the heart ache and pain of a cataclysmic event 
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 In this book are common problems associated with a tragedy such as personal 
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URL in the address bar of your browser and hit return, or type it in manually.

 Also see how you will receive your copy of my book twice as fast as the other 
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 Again, thatnk you for taking the time to read what I have to offer, and feel free to visit 
at :         
       http://www.mnsi.net/~ranger90/index.htm


 Sincerely, D.S.McLean,  contact me for more information at:  ranger90 at mnsi.net






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep 17 23:24:07 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:24:07 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>



The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security 
and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry. 
Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.

Two lengthy reports on the bill have been issued recently, both
of which provide overviews of the current encryption debate.

House Report 105-243, published on September 3, provides a 
detailed analysis of the bill, hearings held, floor remarks and 
mark-ups since introduction:

   http://jya.com/hr105-243.txt  (115K)

And one published today includes recent floor remarks on 
encryption, mostly supportive of public use:

   http://jya.com/hr1903-floor.htm  (44K)

One point of contention is the evaluation of foreign encryption.
The original bill put that responsibility on NIST, but the latest version
deleted that and leaves the task to BXA (and unnamed others).
Moreover, there's dispute over committee jurisdiction for other 
provisions.

Information security now attracts the swarm, with encryption the 
moths' beacon.







From dustin at witcapital.com  Wed Sep 17 23:24:35 1997
From: dustin at witcapital.com (dustin at witcapital.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:24:35 +0800
Subject: IPO ALERT: Radcom Ltd. Available through Wit Capital
Message-ID: <199709180433.VAA16946@cygint.cygnus.com>






Wit Capital Corporation is pleased to announce that we are able to provide first-come first-serve participation in the following initial public offering as described below:

Issuer:  Radcom Ltd., which develops, manufactures, markets and supports internetworking test and analysis equipment for data communications networks.

Security:  Ordinary Shares

Expected Size of Offering:  2,250,000 shares

Expected Price Range:  $7.50 to $9.50

Lead Underwriter:  Unterberg Harris

If you think you may be interested in this Initial Public Offering available through Wit Capital, please visit http://www.witcapital.com or call (888) 4wit-cap.
You can view, print or download the Preliminary Prospectus from the New Issues Section of our website.  To purchase shares, you must first open an account, which you can do online.

Investing in public offerings is speculative and may not be appropriate for every investor.
As with all of your investments with Wit Capital, you must make your own determination of whether an investment in this offering is consistent with your investment objectives and risk tolerance.
To learn more about the risks of investing in initial public offerings please visit the New Issues Section of our website.

A REGISTRATION STATEMENT RELATING TO THESE SECURITIES HAS BEEN FILED WITH THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION BUT HAS NOT YET BECOME EFFECTIVE.
THESE SECURITIES MAY NOT BE SOLD NOR MAY OFFERS TO BUY BE ACCEPTED PRIOR TO THE TIME THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT BECOMES EFFECTIVE.
THIS COMMUNICATION SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL OR THE SOLICITATION OF AN OFFER TO BUY, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY SALE OF THESE SECURITIES
IN ANY JURISDICTION IN WHICH SUCH OFFER, SOLICITATION OR SALE WOULD BE UNLAWFUL PRIOR TO REGISTRATION OR QUALIFICATION UNDER THE SECURITIES LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.




Wit Capital Corporation
Member NASD  SIPC






From jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Wed Sep 17 23:26:32 1997
From: jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:26:32 +0800
Subject: Court proceedings under SAFE (secret voters)
In-Reply-To: <199709170217.EAA17187@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709171626.KAA10051@denver.ssds.com>



> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>  > > >secret court that has never denied a request for a wiretap)
> jurisdiction;
> > > Is there any way of finding out the names of the judges sitting on the FISA
> > > court?
>  
> > Not that I know of, though I do know that U.S. District Court Judge Joyce
> > Green served on the FISA court for seven years.
> > 
> > Background: The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act established a
> > special, secret court of current Federal district court judges. They
> > approve warrants in secret hearings, with no opposing attorneys present.
> > The judges are required to be available 24 hours a day for emergency
> > hearings. Some happen in the middle of the night in the judge's home.
> 
>   Also, you are not likely to see a FISA judge's name on a warrant.
> Instead, you will see warrants by regular judges which are backdated
> to dates such as, say...March 28 at 9:02 a.m.
>   There are a variety of court systems within which they have the clerks
> regularly 'skip' certain document numbers, leaving them with hard to
> trace back-dated paperwork capabilities.
> 
>   This is a 'Democracy', which is why, in addition to secret police,
> we also have 'secret judges', and 'secret executioners'. (Do we also
> have 'secret voters'?)

Funny you should mention that.  Check out VoteScam by James
Callier (sp?).  This might actually be of some interest to the 
security people out there.  Its a pure system security issue.

The software for the federal electronic vote tabulating equipment is 
produced by several independent vendors.  *None* of the source code 
is available.  The electronic votes are forwarded to a news 
consortium comprised of ABC,NBC,CBS and CNN.  It does *not*
go through an independently audited federal agency of any sort.
(this is what Callier claims -- it should be easy enough to verify)

My wife used to be an election observer in StLouis and the
"validation" test consists of the operator telling the witnesses
what to expect and then running a test deck of cards through
the machine.  *Suprise*   The results are exactly as the operator
predicted.

The news corporations predict the outcomes.
The news corporations collect the votes.
The news corporations report the results.
The news corporations are suprisingly close in their predictions.
(very interesting)

This system is so fraught with security holes I don't think I need
to belabor the point.  What happens when a system is vulnerable
to corruption in such a sensitive position?  Hint: What happens to
unprotected iron in salt water?

Have a better one,

Jim Burnes

PS: I think there is a votescam page on the web out there somewhere.

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes at ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr






From phm at rcinet.com  Wed Sep 17 23:26:46 1997
From: phm at rcinet.com (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:26:46 +0800
Subject: Spooks' New Charter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <34206E0B.398C@rcinet.com>



The Real Guy wrote:
 
>   Such as faulty parts for the U.S. Stealth Bomber that crashed at
> an air show this week and the Iraquin hostage rescue helicopters.
>   Hey! Wait a minute...!?!?
> Actually it was a stealth fighter (F-117) not stealth bomber (B-2).  
OTOH, the stealth fighter is a bomber -- not a fighter.

PHM






From cmcmanis at FreeGate.net  Wed Sep 17 23:46:18 1997
From: cmcmanis at FreeGate.net (Chuck McManis)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:46:18 +0800
Subject: Crypto-law etc
Message-ID: <3420310E.ADFFE243@FreeGate.net>



The longer I follow the crypto "debate" the more I begin to
understand what must have been the real intent behind the
2nd amendment of the constitution.

If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?

Just curious,
--Chuck






From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Thu Sep 18 01:42:38 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:42:38 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917161510.03264cb0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199709180834.EAA32547@upaya.multiverse.com>



Carl Ellison writes:

: >SEC 3. EXPORTS OF ENCRYPTION.
: >	(a) EXPORT CONTROL OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS NOT CONTROLLED ON THE UNITED
: >STATES MUNITIONS LIST. - The Secretary of Commerce, with the concurrence of
: >the Secretary of Defense, shall have the authority to control the export of
: >encryption products not controlled on the United States Munitions List.
: >Decisions made by the Secretary of Commerce with the concurrence of the
: >Secretary of Defense with respect to exports of encryption products under
: >this section shall not be subject to judicial review.
: 
: I take it this last sentence is intended to kill Bernstein, Karn and Junger
: and any other cases we might try to bring.  Correct?

That may be the wish, but it is probably not the intent, since the
government already argues that the administrative decision to classify
a ``product'' as an ``encryption product'' is not subject to
administrative review.  That was the case pretty clearly under the
ITAR, though it may not be the case under the EAR.

But in any case this language would not prevent the courts from
hearing constitutional challenges to the regulations themselves or to
their application in particular cases.  So it will not affect the
constitutional claims in Bernstein, Karn and Junger or similar  claims
brought by anyone else, even if it passes.  But it might affect some
of the administrative law issues that are still being raised in the
Karn case.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From rewards at t-1net.com  Thu Sep 18 16:46:49 1997
From: rewards at t-1net.com (rewards at t-1net.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MOONLIGHTING BECOMES YOU.... Instan
Message-ID: 


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From junger at upaya.multiverse.com  Thu Sep 18 02:13:47 1997
From: junger at upaya.multiverse.com (Peter D. Junger)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:13:47 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917150154.00879b70@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199709180905.FAA32738@upaya.multiverse.com>



Greg Broiles writes:

: Congress cannot eliminate challenges like those in _Bernstein_ and _Junger_
: which are challenges to a statutory/regulatory scheme on the grounds that
: it is unconstitutional. The only way to avoid/eliminate judicial review of
: a constitutional challenge to a statute is to amend the constitution
: itself. (cf. the "no offensive flag-burning" amendments which are discussed
: from time to time, which are unconstitutional when expressed as ordinary
: statutes or as administrative regulations, see _Texas v. Johnson_ and _US
: v. Eichman_.) 

I do not want to give Congress any ideas, but there is also the
possibility that they could take away the federal courts' jurisdiction
to hear constitutional questions without amending the constitution.
On the other hand it is possible that the courts would find a way to
hold that that limitation on their jurisdiction is unconstitutional.

Under the first judiciary act the federal courts did not have original
jurisdiction over civil claims arising under federal law (which would
include the constitution).

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Sep 18 04:34:02 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:34:02 +0800
Subject: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970918111440.008235c8@pop.pipeline.com>



The National Security Committee report on SAFE is
available:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt3.htm  (48K)

This provides discussion of the Weldon-Dellums amendment
and other matters.

The Intel Committee report is due out shortly, which is
designated Part 4.






From cte at nevwest.com  Thu Sep 18 19:39:57 1997
From: cte at nevwest.com (cte at nevwest.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>



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program. You are then automatically connected to CTE's servers with multi 
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Flamers can no longer annoy the postmaster, because
Cybertize was set up especially for commercial bulk e-mailing. Mail bombs are 
automatically bounced back to the sender due to the powerful mail filters 
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In addition YOU are the postmaster of your own domain. You can also code 
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                          ONLY $350.00 COMPLETE!!!
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====================================================================

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* Earn $50.00 for every 3 month and "INSTANT" account you sell. Great start 
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* Earn $75.00 for every 6 month account you sell. CTE is the only
company in world that offers 3,6 and 12 month bulk mail accounts. A very 
powerful sales tool and a low cost option for the majority of people out there. 
Very easy too sell and a very easy way to make extra money!!

* Earn $100.00 for every 12 month account you sell. 12 month accounts are the
way to go ... especially if you want a Platinum account that saves you a
lot of time and money. You get a free 12 month autoresponder ($99.00 value) to 
answer all your mail automatically, plus have all incoming mail to your CTE
address forwarded to your regular account ... for no extra cost! These are also
easy to sell, and you pick up a fat $100 for every one you sell!

* Renewal bonusses! Both accounts provide you with a repeat sales income
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get paid is just 24 hrs! You know how fast the internet works, well here 
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2. Send out the authorized user sales kit to your contacts.
3. Build up your Sunday virtual earings paycheck for Wednesday profits!
4. Help your contacts do the same!

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------------------------ FREE Cybertize Email REGISTRATION -------------------

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[  ] I also want to be an authorized Cybertize reseller. Please rush my authorized 
users sales kit so I can get started and make some Wednesday profits ASAP!

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100 9-5 M-F PST

FULL NAME:__________________________________________
ADDRESS:____________________________________________
City:____________________ St.__________ Zip_________
Phone #_____________________________________________
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You will be e-mailed your sales kit ASAP. You will also be mailed your official 
Cybertize Email registration form.

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## MY AUTHORIZED CTE SALES REP IS:   
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From cte at nevwest.com  Thu Sep 18 19:39:57 1997
From: cte at nevwest.com (cte at nevwest.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>



You just gotta check this out!!----->
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ANNOUNCING ... BULKMAIL FRIENDLY E-MAIL ACCOUNTS
PLUS ... BUILT IN 24 HR 'INSTANT BUCK'S' SALES OPPORTUNITY!

PROTECT YOUR PRIMARY ISP ... PERMANENTLY.
Cybertize Email shelters your primary ISP address, and provides you with a 100%
safe and permanent ISP, with YOUR OWN VIRTUAL DOMAIN, for a reliable 
Bulk Email friendly mailing point. Unlimited e-mails, flame and bomb 
proof, non dial-up, Web Page hosting.

UNLIMITED E-MAILING!
No limit to how many e-mails you can send. You will have your own 
virtual domain!! www.YOUR DOMAIN.com. Imagine the possibilities. Be on 
a level playing field with the big boys. All accounts come with Email 
redirect to your own mailbox

NON DIAL UP ... FREE ACCESS WITH YOUR REGULAR ISP!
No costly dial-up phone charges. Dial up accounts will double the cost of
your account over the year from toll calls to send and receive your mail. 
Our server costs nothing for phone calls. You access Cybertize Email simply 
by logging on to your regular ISP, then POP in with your present e-mail 
program. You are then automatically connected to CTE's servers with multi 
T-1 access. Save hundreds of dollars on phone bills!

COMPLETELY FLAME AND MAILBOMB PROOF!
Flamers can no longer annoy the postmaster, because
Cybertize was set up especially for commercial bulk e-mailing. Mail bombs are 
automatically bounced back to the sender due to the powerful mail filters 
at our servers. We just won't accept it! 

POSTMASTER AT YOUR DOMAIN
In addition YOU are the postmaster of your own domain. You can also code 
your ad's for your own use, EVERY piece of mail comes back to you, and is 
forwarded to your current Email address. In your reply to you can say it's 
from "Bob at YOURDOMAIN.com, or any name, company or other coding you wish to 
use, the possibilities are endless. You will be able to tell which ads are 
pulling and when.

USER SUPPORT SERVICES.
Cybertize can also provide you with Web Page hosting and FREE classified 
advertising on our website. Post your classified ad for FREE for 3 months 
at a time, renew every 3 months for FREE. Do you need a bulletproof Web Page? 
WE HAVE EM!! Send bulk email and direct them to your website on our servers. 
NEVER GET SHUT DOWN. 
Email addresses also available, up to 40 MILLION.

Visit our web site "http://www.cybertize-email.com"

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100

====================================================================
"INSTANT" BULK E-MAIL ACCOUNT. Includes 3 months service, setup, and
TWO MILLION E-mail addresses on CD-ROM. With FREE Bulk Email Software
                          ONLY $350.00 COMPLETE!!!
        ORDER BY 1:00 PM, BE UP BY 4:00PM the SAME DAY
      Visit our web site "http://www.cybertize-email.com/   
====================================================================

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100

Cybertize RESELLERS COMISSIONS ... THE 'INSTANT BUCKS' SALES PLAN!

* Earn $50.00 for every 3 month and "INSTANT" account you sell. Great start 
for the "little guy". A very low cost option to get started.

* Earn $75.00 for every 6 month account you sell. CTE is the only
company in world that offers 3,6 and 12 month bulk mail accounts. A very 
powerful sales tool and a low cost option for the majority of people out there. 
Very easy too sell and a very easy way to make extra money!!

* Earn $100.00 for every 12 month account you sell. 12 month accounts are the
way to go ... especially if you want a Platinum account that saves you a
lot of time and money. You get a free 12 month autoresponder ($99.00 value) to 
answer all your mail automatically, plus have all incoming mail to your CTE
address forwarded to your regular account ... for no extra cost! These are also
easy to sell, and you pick up a fat $100 for every one you sell!

* Renewal bonusses! Both accounts provide you with a repeat sales income
without the need to do any extra work, all from a one original time sales effort!
We will pay you the same commissions as above for every renewal. A great way to
build a repeat 6 month or 12 month additional income! 

24 HR COMMISSIONS ... DIRECT TO YOU FED EX OVERNIGHT!

If your comssions are $150 or more, we will Federal Express it OVERNIGHT 
to you What? Wow! Yes, we Federal Express the money to you within 24 hrs. 
Instant Bucks. This means from the time your referrals pay to the time you 
get paid is just 24 hrs! You know how fast the internet works, well here 
is a pay system just as fast! You send out your sales info, people are 
responding within only hours, remitting their funds to CTE the next day, 
and you can get paid the day after that! To the best of our knowledge we 
operate the first and only FED EX 24hr 'Instant Cash' salesplan on the net! 

Our sales plan is a true overnight money maker!

HOT! VIRTUAL EARNINGS PAYCHECK!
Earn before you pay! Register FREE for your Bulk Email account now, receive an
authorized user sales kit, refer your contacts to CTE and you will qualify to 
receive a 'Virtual Earnings' paycheck telling you how much you have earned 
before you pay for your account! This gives you the opportunity to make yourself 
a good profit before you pay, and before you have even done your first CTE bulk mailing! Monday morning we are taking orders! Tuesday morning we are paying 
comissions! Wednesday morning you will receive your sales commissions FED EX'd overnight to you. Instant 24hr Money!

Register FREE and start building your earnings paycheck now!

All you have to do is:
1. Register FREE with Cybertize now for your bulkmail account.
2. Send out the authorized user sales kit to your contacts.
3. Build up your Sunday virtual earings paycheck for Wednesday profits!
4. Help your contacts do the same!

It's that easy. But you will have to hurry. This is a limited introduction
promotional offer for Cybertize bulk email accounts resellers. The countdown is on. 
Be included. Simply complete the form below and return it to Register NOW!



------------------------ FREE Cybertize Email REGISTRATION -------------------

[  ] Yes, I'm in! I want a Nuke-Proof bulkmail friendly e-mail account.
[  ] I also want to be an authorized Cybertize reseller. Please rush my authorized 
users sales kit so I can get started and make some Wednesday profits ASAP!

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100 9-5 M-F PST

FULL NAME:__________________________________________
ADDRESS:____________________________________________
City:____________________ St.__________ Zip_________
Phone #_____________________________________________
E-MAIL:_____________________________________________

You will be e-mailed your sales kit ASAP. You will also be mailed your official 
Cybertize Email registration form.

YOU CAN BE ONLINE NOW!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
## MY AUTHORIZED CTE SALES REP IS:   
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From cte at nevwest.com  Thu Sep 18 19:50:19 1997
From: cte at nevwest.com (cte at nevwest.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>



You just gotta check this out!!----->
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ANNOUNCING ... BULKMAIL FRIENDLY E-MAIL ACCOUNTS
PLUS ... BUILT IN 24 HR 'INSTANT BUCK'S' SALES OPPORTUNITY!

PROTECT YOUR PRIMARY ISP ... PERMANENTLY.
Cybertize Email shelters your primary ISP address, and provides you with a 100%
safe and permanent ISP, with YOUR OWN VIRTUAL DOMAIN, for a reliable 
Bulk Email friendly mailing point. Unlimited e-mails, flame and bomb 
proof, non dial-up, Web Page hosting.

UNLIMITED E-MAILING!
No limit to how many e-mails you can send. You will have your own 
virtual domain!! www.YOUR DOMAIN.com. Imagine the possibilities. Be on 
a level playing field with the big boys. All accounts come with Email 
redirect to your own mailbox

NON DIAL UP ... FREE ACCESS WITH YOUR REGULAR ISP!
No costly dial-up phone charges. Dial up accounts will double the cost of
your account over the year from toll calls to send and receive your mail. 
Our server costs nothing for phone calls. You access Cybertize Email simply 
by logging on to your regular ISP, then POP in with your present e-mail 
program. You are then automatically connected to CTE's servers with multi 
T-1 access. Save hundreds of dollars on phone bills!

COMPLETELY FLAME AND MAILBOMB PROOF!
Flamers can no longer annoy the postmaster, because
Cybertize was set up especially for commercial bulk e-mailing. Mail bombs are 
automatically bounced back to the sender due to the powerful mail filters 
at our servers. We just won't accept it! 

POSTMASTER AT YOUR DOMAIN
In addition YOU are the postmaster of your own domain. You can also code 
your ad's for your own use, EVERY piece of mail comes back to you, and is 
forwarded to your current Email address. In your reply to you can say it's 
from "Bob at YOURDOMAIN.com, or any name, company or other coding you wish to 
use, the possibilities are endless. You will be able to tell which ads are 
pulling and when.

USER SUPPORT SERVICES.
Cybertize can also provide you with Web Page hosting and FREE classified 
advertising on our website. Post your classified ad for FREE for 3 months 
at a time, renew every 3 months for FREE. Do you need a bulletproof Web Page? 
WE HAVE EM!! Send bulk email and direct them to your website on our servers. 
NEVER GET SHUT DOWN. 
Email addresses also available, up to 40 MILLION.

Visit our web site "http://www.cybertize-email.com"

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100

====================================================================
"INSTANT" BULK E-MAIL ACCOUNT. Includes 3 months service, setup, and
TWO MILLION E-mail addresses on CD-ROM. With FREE Bulk Email Software
                          ONLY $350.00 COMPLETE!!!
        ORDER BY 1:00 PM, BE UP BY 4:00PM the SAME DAY
      Visit our web site "http://www.cybertize-email.com/   
====================================================================

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100

Cybertize RESELLERS COMISSIONS ... THE 'INSTANT BUCKS' SALES PLAN!

* Earn $50.00 for every 3 month and "INSTANT" account you sell. Great start 
for the "little guy". A very low cost option to get started.

* Earn $75.00 for every 6 month account you sell. CTE is the only
company in world that offers 3,6 and 12 month bulk mail accounts. A very 
powerful sales tool and a low cost option for the majority of people out there. 
Very easy too sell and a very easy way to make extra money!!

* Earn $100.00 for every 12 month account you sell. 12 month accounts are the
way to go ... especially if you want a Platinum account that saves you a
lot of time and money. You get a free 12 month autoresponder ($99.00 value) to 
answer all your mail automatically, plus have all incoming mail to your CTE
address forwarded to your regular account ... for no extra cost! These are also
easy to sell, and you pick up a fat $100 for every one you sell!

* Renewal bonusses! Both accounts provide you with a repeat sales income
without the need to do any extra work, all from a one original time sales effort!
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2. Send out the authorized user sales kit to your contacts.
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[  ] Yes, I'm in! I want a Nuke-Proof bulkmail friendly e-mail account.
[  ] I also want to be an authorized Cybertize reseller. Please rush my authorized 
users sales kit so I can get started and make some Wednesday profits ASAP!

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100 9-5 M-F PST

FULL NAME:__________________________________________
ADDRESS:____________________________________________
City:____________________ St.__________ Zip_________
Phone #_____________________________________________
E-MAIL:_____________________________________________

You will be e-mailed your sales kit ASAP. You will also be mailed your official 
Cybertize Email registration form.

YOU CAN BE ONLINE NOW!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
## MY AUTHORIZED CTE SALES REP IS:   
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From cte at nevwest.com  Thu Sep 18 19:50:19 1997
From: cte at nevwest.com (cte at nevwest.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: $56
Message-ID: <>



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* Renewal bonusses! Both accounts provide you with a repeat sales income
without the need to do any extra work, all from a one original time sales effort!
We will pay you the same commissions as above for every renewal. A great way to
build a repeat 6 month or 12 month additional income! 

24 HR COMMISSIONS ... DIRECT TO YOU FED EX OVERNIGHT!

If your comssions are $150 or more, we will Federal Express it OVERNIGHT 
to you What? Wow! Yes, we Federal Express the money to you within 24 hrs. 
Instant Bucks. This means from the time your referrals pay to the time you 
get paid is just 24 hrs! You know how fast the internet works, well here 
is a pay system just as fast! You send out your sales info, people are 
responding within only hours, remitting their funds to CTE the next day, 
and you can get paid the day after that! To the best of our knowledge we 
operate the first and only FED EX 24hr 'Instant Cash' salesplan on the net! 

Our sales plan is a true overnight money maker!

HOT! VIRTUAL EARNINGS PAYCHECK!
Earn before you pay! Register FREE for your Bulk Email account now, receive an
authorized user sales kit, refer your contacts to CTE and you will qualify to 
receive a 'Virtual Earnings' paycheck telling you how much you have earned 
before you pay for your account! This gives you the opportunity to make yourself 
a good profit before you pay, and before you have even done your first CTE bulk mailing! Monday morning we are taking orders! Tuesday morning we are paying 
comissions! Wednesday morning you will receive your sales commissions FED EX'd overnight to you. Instant 24hr Money!

Register FREE and start building your earnings paycheck now!

All you have to do is:
1. Register FREE with Cybertize now for your bulkmail account.
2. Send out the authorized user sales kit to your contacts.
3. Build up your Sunday virtual earings paycheck for Wednesday profits!
4. Help your contacts do the same!

It's that easy. But you will have to hurry. This is a limited introduction
promotional offer for Cybertize bulk email accounts resellers. The countdown is on. 
Be included. Simply complete the form below and return it to Register NOW!



------------------------ FREE Cybertize Email REGISTRATION -------------------

[  ] Yes, I'm in! I want a Nuke-Proof bulkmail friendly e-mail account.
[  ] I also want to be an authorized Cybertize reseller. Please rush my authorized 
users sales kit so I can get started and make some Wednesday profits ASAP!

CALL TODAY 702-313-1100 9-5 M-F PST

FULL NAME:__________________________________________
ADDRESS:____________________________________________
City:____________________ St.__________ Zip_________
Phone #_____________________________________________
E-MAIL:_____________________________________________

You will be e-mailed your sales kit ASAP. You will also be mailed your official 
Cybertize Email registration form.

YOU CAN BE ONLINE NOW!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
## MY AUTHORIZED CTE SALES REP IS:   
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 18 06:41:47 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:41:47 +0800
Subject: SSZ status test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199709181349.IAA01487@einstein.ssz.com>



SSZ Status Test

No Reply

No Repeat






From trei at process.com  Thu Sep 18 07:22:34 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:22:34 +0800
Subject: National Security Committee amendments to SAFE
Message-ID: <199709181407.HAA05208@toad.com>



"Peter D. Junger"  writes:
> I do not want to give Congress any ideas, but there is also the
> possibility that they could take away the federal courts' jurisdiction
> to hear constitutional questions without amending the constitution.
> On the other hand it is possible that the courts would find a way to
> hold that that limitation on their jurisdiction is unconstitutional.

> Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH

If Congress or the Executive branch do this, the American people and 
nation will be in far, far deeper trouble than would be caused by mere 
crypto restrictions.

Peter Trei
trei at process.com






From nelson at crynwr.com  Thu Sep 18 08:05:54 1997
From: nelson at crynwr.com (Russell Nelson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:05:54 +0800
Subject: PGP signature legal standing?
Message-ID: <19970918145759.25884.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>



Is there any legal standing for a PGP signature?  I'm tired of my
luser customers faxing me legal documents, then expecting me to sign
it and fax it back.  Yeah, right, like photoshop can't cut-n-paste.
I've got a fax modem on my Linux box, so I'm going to start (in fact
have started) uuencoding the .g3 file, indicating my assent, and
emailing it back to them.

-- 
-russ     http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software supports freed software | PGPok | Freedom causes peace.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Taxes feed the naked
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   |   and clothe the hungry.






From checker at 208.19.53.108  Thu Sep 18 23:07:52 1997
From: checker at 208.19.53.108 (checker at 208.19.53.108)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Check out what I found!!!
Message-ID: <199709190609.XAA23071@tessio.type3.net>


The secret is out!

If you want absolutely free access to thousands of adult sites from around the world, 
there's only one way to get it: http://208.19.53.108

http://208.19.53.108

.............................................................................................................................
If you wish to be removed from this list, please reply with the subject "Remove"






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 18 08:56:41 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:56:41 +0800
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
Message-ID: 



A little fairy tale.

Has a happy ending, and everything...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:13:41 -0500
From: Bill GL Stafford 
Organization: Spring Management Company
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis

Robert;
This is a rather long post.  I wanted for you to see it personally.   It is
important and I wanted to clear it thru you.  If I don't see it posted I
will know
you did not chose to post it.
Best personal regards,
Bill GL Stafford

Began fowarded mail:

>From:             jmcnally at bigdog.fred.net
>Date sent:        Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject:          REMNANT REVIEW of September 5, 1997
>
>Gary North's
>                              REMNANT REVIEW
>emailbonus:                                       Matt. 6:33-34
>year2000 at garynorth.com
>
>           Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
>
>Vol. 24, No. 9                 590              September 5, 1997
>
>       I am hereby lifting the copyright of this issue of
>       Remnant Review.  This one I want you to send to your
>       friends, neighbors, boss, Congressman, and anyone
>       else who might want advance information on the end,
>       at long last, of the 16th Amendment: vetoed by Year
>       2000 noncompliant computers.  Photocopy it, print it,
>       whatever.  Then visit my Web site for full documen-
>       tation (under "Government"):
>
>THE ULTIMATE TAX REFORM: JANUARY 1, 2000
>
>     What I am about to report will verify what I have been saying all
>year.  If this doesn't constitute proof, I don't know what can persuade
>you.  From this point on, anyone who tells you that the Millennium Bug
>is not a big deal, or who says, "We'll just have to wait and see about y2k,
>there's no need to hurry," simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
>Ignore him.
>
>     On August 21, I stumbled into the most amazing government
>document I have ever seen.  I had read a brief news story about a
>company that had applied for a contract to work as a subcontractor for
>the IRS in a restructuring of its computer systems.  The IRS admitted to
>Congress last January that its $4 billion, 11-year attempt to modernize
>its computer systems had failed.  Here was a follow-up story.  So, I went
>to the company's Web site to find more information.  This led me on a
>merry chase across the Web.
>
>     Finally I landed on the IRS's page -- specifically, its page
>relating to
>its PRIME project.  There were pages of blue links to documents, each
>one with a strange name or the name of a state.  It was not clear to me at
>first what I had discovered.  So, I started clicking links. I found
>nothing that I could understand, link after link: government bureaucratese.
>Then I hit pay dirt: the mother lode, my friends -- what we have been
>waiting for since 1913.  Deliverance.  Free at last, free at last!  THE
>IRS'S MAINFRAME COMPUTERS -- 63 OF THEM, PLUS MICROCOMPUTERS -- ARE ON
>THE BRINK OF TOTAL COLLAPSE.  Yee-hah!
>
>     This amazing admission appears in an innocuously titled document,
>"Request for Comments (RFC) for Modernization Prime Systems
>Integration Services Contractor" (May 15, 1997).  The author is Arthur
>Gross, Associate Commissioner of the IRS and Chief Information
>Officer, i.e., the senior IRS computer honcho.  It was Mr.  Gross who
>went before Congress in January to admit defeat.
>
>     Mr. Gross now says that the IRS is no longer capable of operating its
>own computer systems.  The IRS has over 7,500 people involved in just
>computer maintenance, with a budget a $1 billion a year (Appendix B.
>p. 2), yet they can no longer handle the load.  And so, says Mr. Gross,
>some of them are going to get fired.  You can imagine the continuing
>morale problem that this announcement will cause!  The IS (information
>systems) division will be, as they say, DOWNSIZED.  From now on, the
>IRS must achieve the following:
>
>           . . . shifting the focus of IS management to a
>           business orientation: servicing customers with
>           exponentially increasing technology needs,
>           implementing massive new technology applications
>           on schedule within budget while managing the
>           downsizing of the IS organization
>           (Appendix B. p. 2).
>
>     Do you think that people slaving away in their cubicles, trying to fix
>the Millennium Bug, will respond favorably to this notice?  "Fix it, and
>then you're out!"  Mr. Gross knows better.  So, with this amazing
>document, he calls on private industry to come in and TAKE OVER
>THE ENTIRE IRS COMPUTER DIVISION.  This is what Mr. Gross
>calls "a strategic partnership" (p. 1).  The new partners will have to fix
>the Millennium Bug.  The IRS will give them exactly eight months, start
>to finish: October 1, 1998 to the end of June, 1999.
>
>                     The IRS's Digital Augean Stables
>
>     Perhaps you have had trouble on occasion getting information from
>the IRS about your account.  After reading this document, I now know
>why.   The information is held in what the IRS calls "Master Files" (p.
>4).  These files are held in the Martinsburg, West Virginia, computer.
>This computer receives data sent in by 10 regional centers that use a
>total of 60 separate mainframes.  These mainframes do not talk to each
>other.  Or, as Mr. Gross puts it, they are part of "an extraordinarily
>complex array of legacy and stand-alone modernized systems with
>respect both to connectivity and inoperability between the mainframe
>platforms and the plethora of distributed systems" (p. 4).  This is
>bureaucratese, but I do understand the word, INOPERABILITY.
>
>     The tax data build up in the local mainframes for five business days.
>Then they are uploaded to West Virginia.  This may take up to 10 actual
>days.  Then the Martinsburg computer sends it all back to the regional
>computers in the Service Centers.  Then the information is made
>available to the "Customer Service Representatives" (p. 5), i.e., local tax
>collectors.  The elapsed time may take two weeks.
>
>     But . . . it turns out that the actual source payment documents are
>not sent to the Master Files.  Neither is "specific payment or tax
>information."  This information stays in what the IRS calls
>STOVEPIPED SYSTEMS, meaning stand-alone data bases "which, for
>the most part, are not integrated with either the Master Files or the
>corporate on-line system, IDRS" (p. 5).  Separate tax assessments for the
>same person can appear in six separate systems, and these do not
>communicate with each other (p. 5).  "Further, each system generates
>management reporting information which is not homogeneous, one with
>the other . . ." (p. 7).  To help us visualize this mess, and much larger
>messes, the document includes charts.  These charts are so complex that
>my printer was unable to print out the 116-page document -- probably
>not enough RAM.  I had to get two other people involved to get one
>readable copy.
>
>     I have included one of these charts on the back page, just for fun.
>Go ahead.  Take a quick look.  No need to get out your magnifying glass
>just yet.   Then comes the key admission: "These infrastructures are
>largely not century date compliant . . ." (p. 11).  The phrase "century
>date compliant" is the government's phrase for Year 2000-compliant.  In
>other words, THE IRS'S COMPUTERS ARE GOING TO CRASH.
>Now hear this:
>
>          In addition to three computing centers, (Memphis,
>          Detroit and Martinsburg) the latter of which is a
>          fully operational tax processing center, the IRS
>          deploys a total of sixty mainframes in its ten
>          regional service centers.
>
>          None of the mainframes are compliant, thereby
>          necessitating immediate actions ranging from
>          systems software upgrades to replacement (p. 9).
>
>It gets worse:
>
>          A still greater and far reaching wave of work
>          in the form of the Century Date Project is
>          cascading over the diminishing workforce that
>          is already insufficient to keep pace with the
>          historical levels of workload.  For the Internal
>          Revenue Service, the Century Date Project is
>          uniquely challenging, given the aged and non-
>          century compliant date legacy applications and
>          infrastructure as well as thousands of undocumented
>          applications systems developed by business personnel
>          in the IRS field operations which are resident on
>          distributed infrastructures but not as yet
>          inventoried (p. 13).
>
>     Notice especially two key words: "undocumented" and "inventoried."
>"Undocumented" means there is no code writer's manual.  They either
>lost it or they never had it.  "Inventoried" means they know where all of
>the code is installed.  But it says: "not as yet inventoried."  How much
>code?  Lots.
>
>          The IS organization has inventoried and scheduled
>          for analysis and conversion, as required, the
>          approximately 62 million lines of computer code
>          comprising the IRS core business systems.  With
>          respect to the business supported field
>          applications and infrastructures, however, we do
>          not know what we do not know.  Until central field
>          systems and infrastructures are completed, the IRS
>          will be unable to analyze, plan, and schedule the
>          field system conversion (p. 13).
>
>     I love this phrase: WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE DO NOT
>KNOW.  This is surely not bureaucratese.  Now, let's put all of this into
>a clearer perspective.  The Social Security Administration discovered its
>y2k problem in 1989.  In 1991, programmers began to work on
>correcting the agency's 30 million lines of code.  By mid-1996, they had
>completed repairs on 6 million lines (CIO Magazine, Sept. 15, 1996.)
>Got that?  It took five years for them to fix 6 million lines.  But the IRS
>has 62 million lines THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT, but they don't know
>about the rest.  It's out there, but there is no inventory of it.
>
>     Consider the fact that they have not completed their inventory.  The
>1996 "California White Paper," which is the y2k guide issued by the IS
>division of the California state government's y2k repair project, says that
>inventory constitutes 1% of the overall code repair project.  Awareness
>is 1%.  So, after you get finished with inventory, YOU HAVE 98% OF
>YOUR PROJECT AHEAD OF YOU.  Meanwhile, the IRS has not yet
>completed its inventory.
>
>     The IRS has led the American welfare state into a trap.  The Federal
>government, like the U.S. economy, will be restructured in the year
>2000.  Most Americans will be in bankruptcy by 2001, but they will be
>free.
>
>     Meanwhile, the news media are all a-dither about the Clinton-
>Congress accord on taxes, which will balance the budget in 2002.  As
>George Gobel used to say, "Suuuuuure it will."  Who is going to collect
>revenues in 2000?
>
>                   Please Help Get Us Out of This Mess!
>
>     The next section of Mr. Gross's report I find truly unique. When was
>the last time you read something like this in an agency's report on its
>own capacity?  (The next time will be the first.)
>
>          THE CHALLENGE: THE INFORMATION SYSTEMS (IS)
>          ORGANIZATION LACKS SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL
>          MANAGEMENT CAPACITY TO SIMULTANEOUSLY
>          SUPPORT TODAY'S ENVIRONMENT, EFFECTUATE THE
>          CENTURY DATE CONVERSION AND MANAGE
>         MODERNIZATION (p. 13).
>
>     This states the IRS's problem clearly: its computer systems are just
>barely making it now, and the Year 2000 Problem will torpedo them.
>
>          Mr. Gross then announces the IRS's solution: quit.  The IRS has
>now admitted that "tax administration is its core business" and it will
>now "shift responsibility for systems development and integration
>services to the private sector . . ." (p. 54).  But first, it must find
>some well-heeled partners.
>
>     "The IRS has acknowledged that its expertise now and in the future
>is tax administration."  This means that "the IS organization must be
>rebuilt to preserve the existing environment and partner with the private
>sector to Modernize the IRS" (p. 13).  I love it when someone capitalizes
>"Modernize."  Especially when it really means "officially bury."
>
>     Then the coup de grace: "Any reasonable strategy to move forward,
>therefore, would focus on managing the immediate crisis -- 'stay in
>business' while building capacity to prepare for future Modernization"
>(p. 14).  Then comes part 2 of the report:
>
>                         The Next Eighteen Months:
>                          Staying in Business and
>                        Preparing for Modernization
>
>     Mr. Gross knows that there is a deadline, and it isn't 2000.  It's
>months earlier.  He has selected June, 1999.  Most organizations have
>elected December, 1998.  This allows a year for testing.  Mr. Gross is
>more realistic.  He knows late 1998 is too early.  The IRS can't do it.  (I
>would say that late 2008 is too early.  The IRS has tried to revamp its
>computer system before.)
>
>     . . . the IRS must undertake and complete major infrastructure
>initiatives no later than June 1999, to minimally ensure century date
>compliance for each of its existing mainframes and/or their successor
>platforms.  At the same time, the IRS must complete the inventory of its
>field infrastructures as well as develop and exercise a century date
>compliance plan for the conversion replacement and/or elimination of
>those infrastructures. (p. 19).
>
>     Then comes an astounding sentence.  This sentence is astounding
>because it begins with the word, IF.  (Note: RFC stands for Request for
>Comment.)
>     IF THE INFRASTRUCTURE ANALYSIS BECOMES
>AVAILABLE, UPDATES WILL BE PROVIDED TO POTENTIAL
>OFFERERS TO ASSIST IN DEVELOPING RESPONSES TO THE
>RFC.
>
>   If...? IF...?  He is warning all those private firms that he is inviting
>in to clean up the mess that they may not be given the code analysis.  But
>code analysis constitutes the crucial 15% of any Year 2000 repair job,
>according to the California White Paper.  Then, and only then, can code
>revision begin.
>
>     Meanwhile, the IRS system's code is collapsing even without y2k.
>The programmers are not able to test all of the new code.  Mr.  Gross
>calls this "Product Assurance."  This division, he says, has "sunk to
>staffing levels less than 30 percent of the minimum industry standard . .
>.. ."  This makes it "one of the highest priorities within the IS
>organization, given that, today, major tax systems are not subjected to
>comprehensive testing prior to being migrated to production" (p. 15).  In
>short, Congress passes new tax code legislation, and the IRS
>programmers implement these changes WITHOUT TESTING THE
>NEW CODE.  Now comes y2k.  As he says, "the Century Date
>Conversion will place an extraordinary additional burden on the Product
>Assurance Program."  I don't want to bore you, but when I find the most
>amazing government document I've ever seen, I just can't stop.  Neither
>could Mr. Gross:
>
>     Regrettably, the challenge is far more overarching: to modernize
>functioning but aged legacy systems which have been nearly irreparably
>overlaid by and interfaced with a tangle of stovepiped distributed
>applications systems and networked infrastructures (p. 55).
>
>     I'll summarize.  The IRS has got bad code on 63 aging mainframe
>systems, plus micros.  It has lost some of the code manuals.  It does not
>know how much code it has.  It must now move ("migrate") the data
>from these y2k noncompliant computers -- data stored in legacy
>programs that are not y2k compliant -- to new computers with new
>programs.  These computers must interact with each other, unlike
>today's system.  Bear in mind that some of this code -- I have seen
>estimates as high as 30% -- is written in Assembler language, which is
>not understood by most programmers today: perhaps 50,000 of them,
>worldwide (Cory Hamasaki's estimate).  Then everything must be tested,
>side by side, old system vs. new system, on mainframe computers, before
>anyone can trust anything.  (This assumes that extra mainframes are
>available, but they aren't.)  Warning:
>
>     Beyond the magnitude of the applications system migration, the
>complexity and enormity of the date conversion that would be required
>necessitates careful planning and risk mitigation strategies (e.g.,
>parallel processing).  While the risks inherent in Phase III may be nearly
>incalculable given the age of the systems, the absence of critical
>documentation, dependency on Assembler Language Code (ALC) and
>the inevitable turnover of IRS workforce supporting these systems, it is
>essential to plan and execute the conversion of the Master Files and its
>related suite of applications (p. 30).
>
>     I'll say it's essential!  The key question is: Is it possible?  No.
>
>     Can you believe this sentence?  "The risks inherent in Phase III may
>be nearly incalculable . . ."  What does he mean, "may be"?  They ARE.
>
>    Meanwhile, Congress keeps changing the Internal Revenue Code.
>This creates a programming nightmare: coding the new laws.  So, how
>big is this project?  Here is how Mr. Gross describes it: "Modernization
>is the single largest systems integration undertaking in world eclipsing
>in breadth and depth any previous efforts of either the public or private
>sector.  Given the fluid nature of the Nation's Tax Laws, Modernization
>is likely to be the most dynamic, creating even greater complexity and,
>in turn, compounding the risks" (p. 54).  Many, many risks.
>
>     Two questions arise: (1) Who is going to fix it?  (2) At what price?
>The answer?  He has no answer.  All he knows is that this project is so
>huge that NORMAL COMPETITIVE BIDDING WILL NOT WORK.
>For this project, the IRS is not saying what its "partners" will be paid.
>It's open for negotiation.
>
>     You may be thinking: "Boondoggle."  I'm thinking: "Legal liability
>in 2000 larger than any company's board of directors would rationally
>want to risk, unless they think Congress will pass a no-liability law in
>2000."  Here is Mr. Gross's description of the special arrangement.  Pay
>close attention to the words "competitive process."  He bold faces them; I
>do, too.
>
>     Our challenge, therefore, is to FORGE A BUSINESS PLAN AND
>     PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP in accordance with federal
>     governmental procurement laws and regulations ABSENT THE
>     TRADITIONAL LEVEL OF DETAILED REQUIREMENTS
>     TYPICALLY ESTABLISHED AS THE BASIS OF THE
>     COMPETITIVE PROCESS (p. 60).
>
>     He calls on businesses to create a "DETAILED SYSTEMS
>DEVELOPMENT PLAN" (p. 60).  He goes on: "In general, the IRS
>seeks to create a business plan which: Shares risk with the private
>sector; Incents [incents???!!!] the private sector to either share or
>assume the 'front end' capital investment . . ." (p. 60).  Read it again.
>Yes, it really says that.  THE IRS WANTS THE PRIVATE SECTOR
>TO PUT UP MOST OR ALL OF THE MONEY TO FIX ITS ENTIRE
>SYSTEM.
>
>     This is why the minimum requirement for a company to make a bid
>is $200 million in working capital.  It has to have experience in
>computers.  It must be able to repair 5 million lines of code (p. 70).
>
>     How complex is this job?  The complexity is mind-boggling: a seven-
>volume "Modernization Blueprint."  To buy it on paper costs $465, or
>you can get a copy on a free CD-ROM.  Needless to say, I got the CD-ROM.
>
>     So, you think, at least the IRS is getting on top of this problem.
>Suuuuure, it is.  The contract award date is [let's hear a drum roll,
>please]: October 1, 1998 (p. 73).  How realistic is this?  You may
>remember Mr. Gross's deadline: June 1999.  So, he expects these firms
>to be able to fix 62 million lines of noncompliant code, if they can find
>the missing code in the field offices, even though the IRS has lost the
>documentation for some of this code, in an eight-month window of
>productivity.  Social Security isn't compliant after seven years of work
>on less than half the IRS's number of lines of code.
>
>     The IRS is facing a complete breakdown.  Its staff can't fix the code.
>The IRS wants private firms to pay for the upgrade and manage the
>computer systems from now on.  It does not know how much code it has.
>It does not have manuals for all of the old code.  It does not even know
>how to pay the firms that get the contracts: either by "contractually
>greed upon fees" or "pursuant to measurable outcomes of the
>implemented systems" (p. 61).  It has called for very large and
>experienced firms to submit comments by October 1, 1997.
>
>     In short, the IRS does not know what it is doing, let alone what it
>has to do.  It only knows that it has to find a few suckers in private
>industry
>to bear the costs of implementing a new, improved IRS computer system
>and then assume responsibility for getting it Year 2000-compliant
>between October 1, 1998 and the end of June 1999.  ("There's one born
>every minute.")  Here are 12 companies that have expressed interest:
>nderson Consulting, Computer Sciences Corporation, EDS
>Government Services (EDS is not itself y2k compliant), GTE
>Government Systems, Hughes Information Technology Systems, IBM,
>Litton PRC, Lockheed Martin Corporation, Northrup Grumman
>Corporation, Ratheon E-Systems, Tracor Information Systems
>Company, and TRW.  The list is posted at:
>
>http://www.ustreas.gov/treasury/bureaus/irs/prime/interest.htm
>                                Conclusion
>
>     It's all over but the shouting.  The IRS is going bye-bye.
>Accompanying it will be the political career of Mr. Gingrich and the
>historical reputation of Mr. Clinton.  Bill Clinton will be remembered as
>the President on whose watch the Federal government shut down and
>stayed shut down.  First Mate Newt will try to avoid going down with
>the ship of state, but he won't make it.  And as for Al Gore . . . .  Well,
>maybe he can get a job herding cattle on the Texas ranch of his ex-
>roommate at Harvard, Tommy Lee Jones.  Think of it: not "Gore in
>2000," but GORED IN 2000.  Mr. Information Highway will hit a dead end.
>
>     On June 30, 1999, the IRS will know that its computers are still
>noncompliant.  On the next day, July 1, fiscal year 2000 rolls over on
>the Federal government's computers and on every state government's
>computer that has not rolled over (and shut down) on a bi-annual basis
>on July 1, 1998.  Almost every state: about half a dozen will roll over on
>October 1, 1999.
>
>     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world --
>assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
>public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
>GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
>collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
>and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
>how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
>Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.
>
END



--
��ࡱ�


Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Bill GL  Stafford
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From hua at chromatic.com  Thu Sep 18 09:20:36 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:20:36 +0800
Subject: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
Message-ID: <199709181615.JAA26271@ohio.chromatic.com>



    http://www.techweb.com/wire/news/1997/09/0917crylaws.html

Ern






From hua at chromatic.com  Thu Sep 18 09:38:54 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:38:54 +0800
Subject: Supercomputer export link in National Security Committee report
Message-ID: <199709181634.JAA26324@ohio.chromatic.com>



>From JYA's copy ("Purpose and Background" section, about
8 paragraphs down):

             (3) It would direct the Secretary of Commerce to
            allow the export or re-export of encryption-capable
            software for non-military end-uses in any country, or
            computers using such software based on considerations
            of foreign availability.
    
        Importantly, the committee notes that section 3 of H.R. 695
    would require the government to approve exports of high
    performance computers (so-called ``supercomputers'') if those
    computers contain encryption products or software that are
    commercially available. In the committee's view, this is one of
    the most serious consequences and flaws of the bill. Under this
    proposed arrangement, any company would be in a position to
    force the government to allow the export of even the most
    powerful supercomputer available in the United States, if they
    first loaded a piece of foreign-available encryption software
    on the supercomputer. As confirmed by Secretary Reinsch in his
    testimony before the committee, this provision would overturn
    the Spence-Dellums amendment to H.R. 1119, the National Defense
    Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997, adopted by the House on
    June 19, 1997, by a vote of 332-88. That amendment would
    prevent the inadvertent export of supercomputers to
    questionable end users in countries of proliferation concern.

Are we getting screwed by a false link to supercomputers?

Ern






From hua at chromatic.com  Thu Sep 18 09:55:50 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:55:50 +0800
Subject: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
Message-ID: <199709181652.JAA26435@ohio.chromatic.com>



Address:  http://www.techweb.com/wire/news/1997/09/0917crylaws.html

Quote:

    U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says

    (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
    By Douglas Hayward, TechWire 

    CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S.
    government's strategy of monitoring the
    computer networks of hostile
    governments is damaging the
    communications infrastructure of its
    allies, a leading encryption expert said.

Ern






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Sep 18 10:03:34 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:03:34 +0800
Subject: Why GAK is uncool - preaching to the choire
Message-ID: 





Reasons why it sucks:

* It assumes that everyone is guilty until proven innocent.  The only way
to prove you're innocent is of course to have them look at your
communications.

* It is the  cyber equivalent of installing cameras, microphones, and 
other surveilance gear in every room of your house (for a desktop machine)
and in your car (for your notebook/pda).

* When people buy crypto enabled software they do so because they have a
need for privacy.  GAK puts a back door into their need for privacy which
makes them not trust the software since Big Uncle can violate that privacy
at whim.

* People will not trust American produced crypto, American software
companies will go out of business.

* People who need truly secure communications will have to decide between
privacy or being law-abiding.  Not only does GAK assume everyone is guilty
before it being proven, but it will FORCE some to break the law.  It
criminalizes a right that's as basic as breathing.

* It will not stop any crimes, criminals will simply use strong crypto
developed on their own, or older non-GAKk'ed products.  Those criminals
will not be caught through crypto, they will be caught through their
actions in the real world - i.e. shipments of cocaine stopped at the
border by rug sniffing dogs, etc.

* Even if the criminals or terrorists don't use unGAKed software, they
will simply develop code phrases that look like "Hi Mom, everything is
fine at Camp 5, the food smells bad" to mean "send 5 tons of cocaine" and
"Hi Dad, life is good at school, can you send me a pair of socks" to mean
"send two tons of pot" or some such.

* It installs a Law Enforcement Agent in every crypto software.  That
Agent is dormant until the LEA's decide to wake it, but it is the
equivalent of quarterring LEA's in every crypto software, remote
controlled or not, that's what GAK is.

* If the DOD can't be trusted to be honorable when it comes to paying for
software (see blurb in CommWeek - or was it ComputerWorld where the SPA
reports that over 50% of all software intalled on DoD computers is in
copyright violation!) how can the LEA's be trusted to get honest warrants
for listening in?  

* And let's not forget the honorable DoJ and the Inslaw affair.

* Well we, all know that the LEA's can easily obtain warrants by simply
saying any combination of the following "suspected of:  illegal drug
trafficking, child porn,amassing weapons, or terrorist leanings." More
likely, they'll simply listen in to all traffic the way the NSA listens in
to all telegrams.  If their charter doesn't allow it, they'll co-operate
with the Brits and have them pass the info back to make it "legal."  The
Feds will simply listen to all traffic, if they see something interesting,
then they'll get a warrant and listen for more. 

* The TLA's have to realize that the cold war is OVER, and that the
American people against whom they wish to spy is their employer.  Our Tax
money pays these people to spy on us.  We're their boss, it's time to give
them new orders by voting against GAK. (Not that at this point voting
means shit.)

(Now if I get a chance, I'll turn that into yet another letter to fax spam
kongresskritters with but feel free to appropriat the above and add to 
it and use it as needed...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 18 10:13:29 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:13:29 +0800
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




(large file elided, as it's really too large to comment on in bits, even
eliding most of it)

Gary North is not the only one forecasting a "meltdown."

There's simply no way that much code can be refactored to get the "00"
problem fixed. It isn't, of course, just a matter of doing a
search-and-replace on "00" and replacing it with "2000." For example, the
date code was picked to be 2 digits (back in the 1950s and 60s and well
into the 70s, 80s, and even 90s) to save space. Switching to 4-digit dates
would require recompilation of the code (for which the compilers may not
even run properly any longer), and the old hardware will of course not
accept straightforwardly recompiled code (because part of the code "tucked"
these compressed numbers into small registers, as but one of many examples).

Anyway, the best CASE and suchlike tools are inadequate to solve this, as
North notes.

Also, just _testing_ the new code will be a huge project. As North notes,
this will take down mainframes needed to handle the already-increasing
load. And new flaws will occur, just due to bad code and not even related
to the 00 issue. Several years would be far too short to take on this
effort...the 8 months (!!) being talked about by the IRS is laughable.

I don't know the impact. As just one example: a lot of people will be
getting warning notices asking where there Social Security payouts are
being reported, or demanding verification that they are eligible, etc.
(Various subroutines buried in millions of line of code scattered on
hundreds of old machines will incorrectly calculate ages, of course.)

(The IRS could try to "turn off" anything related to sending out notices
about age-related situations, e.g, about Social Security and IRAs and the
like, but this would chop revenue out. And add to the confusion, as people
send queries back to the IRS.)

If the IRS is only now beginning to address this monumental problem, as the
reports we are now seeing suggest, then a meltdown is inevitable. There
simply are not enough programmers to handle the job, and by Brooks' Law
(which is dominant over Moore's Law, of course) not even thousands of
skilled programmers could accomplish what is needed.

And certainly not in just a few years, much less the 8 months (!!!) being
planned.

Another thing: taxpayers and corporations will _add_ to the confusion, by
sending letters and queries back to the IRS asking about some letter or
warning they got from the IRS. For some, this will even be a tactic to
delay payment almost indefinitely. ("I received your letter of blah blah
telling me I am not eligible for blah blah benefits. Before I can complete
my tax return for the year 1999, please advise me about blah blah.")

It is conceivable that the Year 2000 problem, which is really the "archaic,
distributedm, chaotic, too-big data base problem," could accelerate the
conversion to a simpler tax, perhaps a 15% flat tax. (Even a flat tax needs
consideration of what income really is, what apparent income is not real
income, etc. But a flat tax which ignored Social Security income and
deductions, for example, or other social transfer payments, would be much
simpler for government computers to handle.)

The notion of privatizing the system will not really help much, not in the
handful of months before the impact hits. And there are worrisome aspects
to this privatization. Recall that previous regimes had problems collecting
taxes, and issued "letters of marque and reprisal" for "privateers" to stop
ships on the high seas to collect taxes for the crown. Sir Francis Drake
made his fortune this way, collecting taxes for Elizabeth I.

How will it go when Electronic Data Systems or TRW are the ones computing
the taxes owed? (TRW has that nice advantage of already having our credit
spending habits.)

It's gonna be exciting.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 18 10:15:41 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:15:41 +0800
Subject: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
In-Reply-To: <199709181652.JAA26435@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199709181704.NAA09885@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709181652.JAA26435 at ohio.chromatic.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 09:52 AM, Ernest Hua  said:

>Quote:

>    U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says

>    (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
>    By Douglas Hayward, TechWire 

>    CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S.
>    government's strategy of monitoring the
>    computer networks of hostile
>    governments is damaging the
>    communications infrastructure of its
>    allies, a leading encryption expert said.

Allies?? What Allies?!? It only has criminal co-conspirators of other
foreign governments.

Hang 'em all, hang 'em high!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 18 10:19:24 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:19:24 +0800
Subject: PGP signature legal standing?
In-Reply-To: <19970918145759.25884.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
Message-ID: <199709181709.NAA10083@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970918145759.25884.qmail at desk.crynwr.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 02:57 PM, Russell Nelson  said:

>Is there any legal standing for a PGP signature?  I'm tired of my luser
>customers faxing me legal documents, then expecting me to sign it and fax
>it back.  Yeah, right, like photoshop can't cut-n-paste. I've got a fax
>modem on my Linux box, so I'm going to start (in fact have started)
>uuencoding the .g3 file, indicating my assent, and emailing it back to
>them.

Well I *ALWAYS* have any legal documents signed & notarized and then
snail-mailed. Faxing/e-mail is only used for drafts.

Be vary wary of Digital signature laws. They are being drafted by the
clueless and IMHO will cause more problems then they are worth in the long
run (no law is better than a bad law).

A case in point; I just received word that under the Utah Digital
Signature Law "encryption, of and by itself, would constitute the legal
force of signature". Now I received this third hand but the quote came
from the author of the Utah law. Why this is a *BAD* thing is left as an
exercise for the reader.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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qtMXCz3MZl8=
=Srwb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Thu Sep 18 10:41:47 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:41:47 +0800
Subject: PGP signature legal standing?
In-Reply-To: <19970918145759.25884.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
Message-ID: 



Russell Nelson  writes:

> Is there any legal standing for a PGP signature?  I'm tired of my
> luser customers faxing me legal documents, then expecting me to sign
> it and fax it back.  Yeah, right, like photoshop can't cut-n-paste.
> I've got a fax modem on my Linux box, so I'm going to start (in fact
> have started) uuencoding the .g3 file, indicating my assent, and
> emailing it back to them.

IANAL, but: what if you first sign a paper contract saying that PGP
signatres are binding?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From alex.guy at software.com  Thu Sep 18 11:14:05 1997
From: alex.guy at software.com (Alexander)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:14:05 +0800
Subject: Crypto-law etc
In-Reply-To: <3420310E.ADFFE243@FreeGate.net>
Message-ID: <199709181747.KAA00729@chernobyl.software.com>




> If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
> legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
> do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?
You have the right to bear arms, but if it is deadlier than a bee-bee gun
you will be restricted. ;)


Alexander







From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 18 11:35:18 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:35:18 +0800
Subject: Crypto-law etc
In-Reply-To: <199709181747.KAA00729@chernobyl.software.com>
Message-ID: <199709181816.OAA11677@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709181747.KAA00729 at chernobyl.software.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 10:47 AM, Alexander  said:

>> If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
>> legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
>> do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?

>You have the right to bear arms, but if it is deadlier than a bee-bee gun
>you will be restricted. ;)

You can only have your rights restricted if you allow them. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Thu Sep 18 11:49:09 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:49:09 +0800
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga posted:
(and someone else wrote)

> >
> >     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world --
> >assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
> >public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
> >GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
> >collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
> >and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
> >how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
> >Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.

Two words,

"Sell Bonds!"


> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

Interesting juxtaposition, eh?

Jim Burnes

      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET







From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 18 11:49:37 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:49:37 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 




(Toad.com address changed to algebra.com. Hugh Daniel confirmed to me that
about 130 subscribers are still using the toad.com address. And he
confirmed that none of them are getting the traffic sent to the "real"
Cypherpunks lists, those at algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com. I
again urge folks to get with the program. Toad.com is going to vanish
someday, at least as any kind of distribution site for CP traffic.)

At 7:04 PM -0700 9/17/97, John Young wrote:
>The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
>is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
>It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security
>and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry.
>Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.
>

By the way, today is the 50th anniversary of the National Security Act,
which created the National Security Agency and the United States Air Force,
amongst other things (some of them probably still secret).

I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
me luck!

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 18 11:56:06 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:56:06 +0800
Subject: Supercomputer export link in National Security Committee report
In-Reply-To: <199709181634.JAA26324@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199709181848.OAA12580@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709181634.JAA26324 at ohio.chromatic.com>, on 09/18/97 
   at 09:34 AM, Ernest Hua  said:

>Are we getting screwed by a false link to supercomputers?

No we got screwed when these so-called "civil-liberties" groups got
envolved. Never has anything good come out of legislation in DC (atleast
nothing in the past 75yrs). There were several of us who warned about
this, of cource if a lobbist isn't lobbying then he is out of a job, so it
is no suprise that our warnings went unheeded.

 "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From FundPros at lyonscapital.com  Fri Sep 19 02:56:14 1997
From: FundPros at lyonscapital.com (FundPros at lyonscapital.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Need Capital?
Message-ID: <>




DO YOU NEED MONEY?  Are you looking to raise capital for 
your business or real estate project?  FREE step-by-step 
guide to successfully raising capital for any business 
is available at:
http://www.lyonscapital.com/guide.htm

Download this FREE resources and greatly enhance your 
potential for success.  Pass it by and miss your chance 
at capital!

WHEN YOU'RE READY FOR FUNDING CALL ON LYONS CAPITAL.  
Lyons Capital is an investment banking firm over 200 
years old, in over 50 countries, with an impecable 
record.  Fax your finance requirement to (804) 643-0725 
or visit us at:
http://www.lyonscapital.com 

To be removed from future mailings please send an email 
to remove at lyonscapital.com with "remove" in the subject
line.








From FundPros at lyonscapital.com  Fri Sep 19 02:56:14 1997
From: FundPros at lyonscapital.com (FundPros at lyonscapital.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Need Capital?
Message-ID: <>




DO YOU NEED MONEY?  Are you looking to raise capital for 
your business or real estate project?  FREE step-by-step 
guide to successfully raising capital for any business 
is available at:
http://www.lyonscapital.com/guide.htm

Download this FREE resources and greatly enhance your 
potential for success.  Pass it by and miss your chance 
at capital!

WHEN YOU'RE READY FOR FUNDING CALL ON LYONS CAPITAL.  
Lyons Capital is an investment banking firm over 200 
years old, in over 50 countries, with an impecable 
record.  Fax your finance requirement to (804) 643-0725 
or visit us at:
http://www.lyonscapital.com 

To be removed from future mailings please send an email 
to remove at lyonscapital.com with "remove" in the subject
line.








From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 18 11:59:43 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:59:43 +0800
Subject: source of title
Message-ID: 



No need to answer the question. Just thought the DeToqueville quote was
appropriate to our circumstances the last week or so...

By, the way, if there ever was an Official Cypherpunks Reading List(tm),
the "Road to Serfdom", by Hayek would certainly be on it. There's a 50th
anniversary edition out, with a forward by Milton Friedman...

Cheers,
Bob

--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:33:07 -0500
Reply-To: Hayek Related Research 
Sender: Hayek Related Research 
From: Kent Guida 
Subject:      source of title
To: HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

        Regarding the source of Hayek�s title, The Road to Serfdom:

        Was it taken from Tocqueville?  I assume it is, but I�ve seen no
explicit
acknowledgment.  Hayek�s references to T. all point to him as a soulmate
and precursor.

        The passage in Democracy in America reads:

I am convinced, however, that anarchy is not the principal evil that
democracies ages have to fear, but the least.  For the principle of
equality begets two tendencies: the one leads men straight to independence
and may suddenly drive them into anarchy; the other conducts them by a
longer, more secret, but more certain road to servitude.  Nations readily
discern the former tendency and are prepared to resist it; they are led
away by the latter, without perceiving its drift; hence it is peculiarly
important to point it out.

Vol 2, p.288 in Vintage edition of the Reeve translation

        Did Hayek ever refer to this as the source of his title?  Can
anyone help
me out here?

Kent Guida

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 18 12:00:48 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:00:48 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709181851.OAA12614@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/18/97 
   at 11:44 AM, Tim May  said:

>(Toad.com address changed to algebra.com. Hugh Daniel confirmed to me
>that about 130 subscribers are still using the toad.com address. And he
>confirmed that none of them are getting the traffic sent to the "real"
>Cypherpunks lists, those at algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com. I
>again urge folks to get with the program. Toad.com is going to vanish
>someday, at least as any kind of distribution site for CP traffic.)

>At 7:04 PM -0700 9/17/97, John Young wrote:
>>The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
>>is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
>>It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security
>>and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry.
>>Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.
>>

>By the way, today is the 50th anniversary of the National Security Act,
>which created the National Security Agency and the United States Air
>Force, amongst other things (some of them probably still secret).

>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on
>his way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be
>tomorrow. Wish me luck!

Have FUN!!!

I wish I had the time to fly out there. Let me know if you video-tape any
of it as I would be intrested in getting a copy.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From shabbir at vtw.org  Thu Sep 18 12:13:43 1997
From: shabbir at vtw.org (Shabbir J. Safdar)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:13:43 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
Message-ID: <199709181847.OAA23472@panix3.panix.com>



===========================================================================
 ____  _         ____            _   _
| __ )(_) __ _  | __ ) _ __ ___ | |_| |__   ___ _ __   Stop the Big Brother
|  _ \| |/ _` | |  _ \| '__/ _ \| __| '_ \ / _ \ '__|  Amendment, coming next
| |_) | | (_| | | |_) | | | (_) | |_| | | |  __/ |     week in the House
|____/|_|\__, | |____/|_|  \___/ \__|_| |_|\___|_|     Commerce committee!
         |___/
                          Posted September 18, 1997
           Please forward where appropriate until September 28, 1997

                        This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, The Center for Democracy & Technology,
              the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Wired Magazine,
                        and Americans for Tax Reform
_________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      Stop the Government From Building Big Brother Into The Internet
      What You Can Do
            -Please contact four leading members of Congress
      Background
      About This Alert
_________________________________________________________________
STOP THE GOVERNMENT FROM BUILDING BIG BROTHER INTO THE INTERNET

In 1948, George Orwell described a future world in which Big Brother
peaked over the shoulder of every citizen -- watching every move and
listening to every word.

Now, in 1997, the FBI is pushing the United States Congress to pass
legislation which would make George Orwell's frightening vision a reality.

Next week the House Commerce Committee will meet to consider a
proposal that would require all Americans to provide the government
guaranteed access to their private online communications and business
transactions.  Taking a page out of Orwell's 1984, the FBI-spawned
proposal would require that every part of the Internet -- from the
software on your computer to the network provider that carries your
messages around the net -- be jury-rigged to divulge your private
conversations immediately on request by the FBI (see below).

Unfortunately, this is not a work of fiction.

The amendment, to be offered by Representatives Mike Oxley (R-OH) and
Thomas Manton (D-NY), is a serious threat to your privacy and represents
the first and final step in the construction of a National Surveillance
Infrastructure.

A vote is expected on September 25.  The future of privacy and security
in the information age is in the hands of the Commerce Committee, and
they need to know that folks are watching and care about the outcome.

On Monday September 22, please join thousands of Internet users all across
the country as we call on Congress to stop big brother.  With your help and
support,  we can ensure that George Orwell's 1984 does not become a reality.

All the information you need is attached below.

_________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO

1. ON MONDAY SEPTEMBER 22, pick up the phone and call as many of the four
   leading members of the Commerce committee as you can:

     Chairman Thomas Bliley (R-VA)         (202) 225-2815
     Ranking member John Dingell (D-MI)   (202) 225-4071
     Rep. Tauzin (R-LA)                    (202) 225-4031
     Rep. Markey (D-MA)                    (202) 225-2836

2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue.

3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE (HR695)
   without amendments.

   Specifically, say that you "OPPOSE THE OXLEY/MANTON BIG BROTHER AMENDMENT.
   Americans should not be required to give the government keys to the front
   door of their house, and they shouldn't be required to give the government
   the keys to unlock their private online communications."

Other amendments may be proposed.  Please urge the Congressman to pass SAFE
"as is" and oppose any amendments. Feel free to use your own words though
here are some points you might want to stress:

- Oxley/Manton is a dramatic expansion of law enforcement power.  It would
   give law enforcement "immediate" access to private online communications
   and business transactions without any notice or knowledge to the user.

- Oxley/Manton is NOT A BALANCE BETWEEN PRIVACY INTERESTS AND LAW
   ENFORCEMENT CONCERNS, as some supporters have argued.  It gives the FBI
   broad new power while stripping Americans of their Fourth Amendment right
   to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures.

- Oxley/Manton would give the Attorney General authority to dictate the
   design of Internet services and software to suit the needs of law
   enforcement.

- Oxley/Manton would not stop crime. Strong encryption without "immediate
   access" features is available today at home and abroad.

- Oxley/Manton would increase opportunities for cybercrime as criminal hackers
   attack vulnerabilities in the key recovery access system.

4. Let us know how it went!  Go to one of the following web pages, depending
   on who you called, and tell us about the conversation.

   Rep. Bliley     http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=va07
   Rep. Dingell    http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=mi16
   Rep. Tauzin     http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=la03
   Rep. Markey     http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=ma07

5. Forward this ALERT to your friends and colleagues.

6. Feel good about yourself!  Know that you've stood up for privacy, and
   contacting Congress is more than most people take the time to do!

_________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

The House Commerce Committee is considering a bill known as the "Security and
Freedom through Encryption Act" (HR 695, a.k.a. SAFE).  SAFE would
encourage the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use encryption
technologies in order to protect privacy and promote electronic commerce on
the Internet.  SAFE enjoys broad support from Internet users, civil
liberties advocates, and over 250 members of Congress.

Last week, the Commerce Committee delayed its vote on the SAFE bill in
order to give the Committee more time to study the implications of the
Oxley/Manton amendment, which would change SAFE to ban encryption which
does not contain features that provide law enforcement with "immediate
access" to the plain text of encrypted information, including private
communications and business transactions (visit
http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/)

The Oxley/Manton amendment would for the first time impose sweeping
restrictions on the ability of American citizens to protect their privacy
on US soil. Specifically, the amendment would:

* PROHIBIT THE DOMESTIC MANUFACTURE AND SALE OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS OR
  SERVICES WHICH DO NOT PROVIDE INSTANT ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT: The
  proposal would prohibit the manufacture, sale, import, or distribution
  within the United States of any encryption product unless it allows
  "immediate access" to the plain text of any user's messages or files
  without the user's knowledge.

* GRANT BROAD NEW AUTHORITY FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO SET TECHNICAL
  STANDARDS FOR ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS: The proposal allows the Attorney
  General to set standards for what are and are not acceptable
  encryption products. The proposal's requirement of immediate access to
  plain text would seem to seriously limit the options available to
  encryption manufacturers seeking approval of their products.

The amendment does not specify whether the immediate access "features"
could be activated (or not) at the option of the purchaser or end user.
Nonetheless,  requiring that such a capability be installed in all domestic
communications networks and encryption products is the equivalent of
enabling a national surveillance infrastructure and asserts unprecedented
control over the design of Internet software, hardware, and services.

The amendment is analogous to the government requiring surveillance cameras
in every new house built in the United States, which could be turned on
remotely by the police if you were ever suspected of committing a crime.

Worse yet, such "key escrow" or "key recovery" technologies pose
significant risk to the security of the Internet -- providing new
points of vulnerability for hackers, terrorists, and industrial spies
to exploit.  A recent study by 11 of the worlds leading cryptographers
concluded that the large scale deployment of such technologies would be
too complex and too insecure to meet the needs of an Information Age
society (see http://www.crypto.com/key_study/)

Despite widespread opposition from Internet users, civil liberties
groups, privacy advocates, and the computer and communications
industries, Oxley and Manton plan to push for this FBI spawned amendment
at the Commerce Committee vote.  If it is adopted, it would
represent the first and final step in the development of a national
surveillance infrastructure.

_________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT

This message was brought to you by the Center for Democracy and
Technology (http://www.cdt.org), the Voters Telecommunications Watch
(http://www.vtw.org/), the Electronic Frontier Foundation
(http://www.eff.org/), Wired Magazine (http://www.wired.com/), and
Americans for Tax Reform (http://www.atr.org/) who have joined together
on this alert.

_________________________________________________________________
end alert 09.18.1997 net
===========================================================================






From vznuri at netcom.com  Thu Sep 18 12:24:48 1997
From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 03:24:48 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709181916.MAA17831@netcom13.netcom.com>




the y2k question with regards to the government has a key
question: suppose computers start cranking out nonsense.
how fast can each problem be fixed? the IRS has armies
of people *right*now* that do nothing but fix problems
created by the computers. how far would this force go
toward fixing all y2k problems? not far, I imagine. but
one thing that Gary North is not emphasizing a lot is
that the big question is how fast new forces can be mobilized
when the government finds itself in a crisis. it is
true at the current rate it looks dismal for the govt to
fix the problems in time, but govt has huge amounts of 
monetary resources to throw at problems when it wants to.
does anyone have any idea how much cash sloshes around in
defense industries? 

sure, the computers may go haywire
for a few days, or a few weeks, but this may not have
a noticeable impact on govt as usual. the govt has an
army of clerks that can be mobilized to do by hand much
of what is required. it is a small force, but what I am pointing
out is that this is not a black-or-white success-failure
proposition. the government is  notoriously ingenious at
"limping along" on limited resources!!

===

this is my call out to PROGRAMMERS not to work on projects
that you don't consider ideologically valid. let's start
a movement in which "intellectual capital" refuses to be
routed toward supporting oppressive, self-perpetuating,
dying welfare-state institutions.  imagine a worldwide
programmer union or movement in which programmers refuse
to work on y2k problems in the government and refuse to
work on other projects they do not support, no matter what
the money. 

they say that every man has his price.
integrity has no price!! imagine, would you turn down any
amount of money to work on the corrupt state mechanisms?
this is exactly what is required to bring them down. as
long as they can continue to bribe the populace with its
own money, they will continue.






From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Thu Sep 18 13:15:45 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 04:15:45 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity
In-Reply-To: <199709181916.MAA17831@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709182054.QAA03430@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Vlad the Imposter writes:

> this is my call out to PROGRAMMERS not to work on projects
> that you don't consider ideologically valid. let's start
> a movement in which "intellectual capital" refuses to be
> routed toward supporting oppressive, self-perpetuating,
> dying welfare-state institutions.  imagine a worldwide
> programmer union or movement in which programmers refuse
> to work on y2k problems in the government and refuse to
> work on other projects they do not support, no matter what
> the money. 
> 
> they say that every man has his price.
> integrity has no price!! imagine, would you turn down any
> amount of money to work on the corrupt state mechanisms?
> this is exactly what is required to bring them down. as
> long as they can continue to bribe the populace with its
> own money, they will continue.

Wow.  I never expected to see Detweiler championing Tim's "collapse
of governments" theme.


-- Jeff






From declan at pathfinder.com  Thu Sep 18 14:24:55 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:24:55 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:44 -0700 9/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>By the way, today is the 50th anniversary of the National Security Act,
>which created the National Security Agency and the United States Air Force,
>amongst other things (some of them probably still secret).
>
>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>me luck!

No, Clinton didn't make it to Fort Meade today, though he could have -- he
and Hillary aren't leaving for California until later this afternoon.
There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with
him (and in fact will be going with him to CA); I haven't been on the
Presidential Plane myself.

Instead, he went to the Pentagon to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the
Air Force. If Clinton went to Fort Meade, the press weren't told about it.

Clinton is speaking at Stanford University's convocation tomorrow at 3:30,
returns to Hyatt Rickeys afterwards. Don't know if he's overnighting in
California or not.

Tim, just promise me if you're arrested, you'll call me (collect) from jail
and tell me the story. (After you call your lawyer, of course.)

-Declan







From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep 18 14:35:14 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:35:14 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918142028.0069d4f8@cnw.com>



In behalf of the Union of Unorganized Programmers, VZ Nuri-logical wrote:

>when the government finds itself in a crisis. it is
>true at the current rate it looks dismal for the govt to
>fix the problems in time, but govt has huge amounts of 
>monetary resources to throw at problems when it wants to.
>does anyone have any idea how much cash sloshes around in
>defense industries? 
.....................................................


On the PBS daily economics news report the other day, and an economist was
warning that this y2k problem could lead to a recession (don't remember if
he said it would be mild or what).   This is a possibility that the rest of
us ought prepare for  (guess I'll have to see what Harry Brown has to say
about it).

    ..
Blanc






From brianbr at together.net  Thu Sep 18 14:38:15 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:38:15 +0800
Subject: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
Message-ID: <199709182118.RAA26741@mx01.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


   I sent a copy of this post to a buddy of mine who retired from the
CIA not too long ago ... these were his comments on the matter; FWIW.

>>>But legal experts say it could be a difficult lawsuit to
>>>win, especially since an employer - in this case the
>>>government - generally has a right to listen to employee
>>>conversation on office phones.
>
>They're right.
>
>>>It also doesn't help that national security was involved
>>>and that courts have held that U.S. citizens don't have
>>>constitutional rights overseas.
>
>Completely wrong. No court has so ruled; the writer is confusing 
>the Bern Convention, signed by almost every nation on earth, which 
>formally establishes the the rule of "lex loci," or law of the land 
>where the individual is found. This is only a common-sense 
>restatement of old principles of Roman AND common law, whereby a 
>national of country X can never act with impunity in country B. 
>It's as old as Hammurabi. There is NO "ruling" that establishes 
>that an American citizen forfeits his Constitutional rights 
>vis-a-vis the United States Government, and to claim otherwise is 
>to insult the truth. 
>
>>>``It's an uphill battle. It's going to be a tough suit,'' said
>>>constitutional law expert Paul Rothstein of Georgetown
>>>University.
>
>Maybe so. But it'll be fun to watch. We've known for years now that 
>the jackbooted thugs of the DEA are by far the most law-abusing, 
>disrespectful, rights-sneering, down-and-dirty, life-threatening, 
>hair-raising agents of the entire US Government. Bar none. They've 
>got to be watched, because they're a nasty threat to individual 
>liberty, and because they routinely interfere with the legitimate 
>work of other American intelligence agencies. (And they've been 
>monitored, by the way, since at least 1984, to my knowledge.) 
>
>>>"It is not the CIA's mission, nor is it part of the
>>>operations of the agency, to surveil in any manner
>>>U.S. officials, or other U.S. citizens at home or
>>>abroad,'' Mansfield said.
>
>Well, that's the kind of in-your-face lying that brings deserved 
>contempt down on the heads of the intelligence community. I disdain 
>it, and have done so publicly. The sonofabitch needs to say openly 
>that you're damned right the CIA and NSA do this, and here's WHY we 
>do it... 
>
>>>The only exception would be in counterintelligence
>>>cases, he added, and then only in consultation with
>>>senior Justice Department officials.
>
>Yeah. A GS-12 giggler.
>
>>>In Horn's previous case, Leighton said, the Justice
>>>Department angered DEA agents by claiming they
>>>have no Fourth Amendment constitutional right
>>>against wiretapping when working outside the
>>>country.
>
>See? The ignorance of DEA agents is legendary!
>
>>>Leighton, a former federal prosecutor, said the
>>>lawsuit doesn't address the reasons for the alleged
>>>electronic eavesdropping.
>
>Ever heard of Title 18 of the US Code, stupid one?
>
>>>"My assumption is because they want to know
>>>what DEA is doing, they want to rip off DEA
>>>informants, they want to know DEA contacts
>>>within foreign governments,'' Leighton said.
>>>``And with the Cold War over, these agencies
>>>are looking for a new mission.''
>
>Nice try, slick. But it ain't so much the desire for their network 
>as it is a desire to prove that a huge number of DEA agents have 
>been involved in drug-running and foreign government corruption for 
>at least 14 years now. Like that?
>
>>>Horn's residence ``was the target of a U.S.
>>>Government Agency-sponsored electronic audio
>>>intercept,'' it said.
>
>I'd love to be on the stand here. I'd LOVE to hear this arrogant 
>schmuck try and "prove" that the "tap" (if there ever was one) was 
>of US origin! What an ignorant ass...
>
>>>"Horn had occasion to see a cable containing
>>>his words in quotation marks, that he had spoken
>>>to another DEA agent, set forth exactly as stated...''
>
>Tsk tsk. Imagine that. And of course it just never occurs to the 
>fool that we can also derive such intel from third-party sources 
>and governments. 
>
>>>The suit, assigned to U.S. District Judge Harold H. Greene,
>
>Oh, yea! The same trigger-happy judge that fathered the infamous 
>AT&T dismemberment! 
>  Hoo-boy!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCGS/sdZgC62U/gIEQJRfwCgzM5bTHJx6L+oB4dIylrfSHPz8nIAoPh7
J9pGVrkG+cmaWZCyMtAFqtg1
=jc+B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  

  "It is one of the most beautiful compensations in life that no 
   man can sincerely try to help another, without helping himself."
       -- Ralph Waldo Emerson







From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep 18 14:40:40 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:40:40 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918142320.006883e4@cnw.com>



Tim May wrote:

>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>me luck!
.................................................


If you will both be there, I wish Clinton luck.
But I missed the post wherein you explained what your visit to Stanford is
about?


    ..
Blanc






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From hedges at sirius.infonex.com  Thu Sep 18 15:24:32 1997
From: hedges at sirius.infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:24:32 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My problem with the "it's hopeless, politicians are idiots" approach is
the same as my problem with Tim May's approach --- it predisposes one to
think that a revolution and possibly violence are the only way to change
the laws. It is an attitude which constructs an obstacle which may or may
not be there. I get really sick of the inane "nuke DC" talk. Call me a
naive optimist, or an idiot; I believe there's hope to wage and win the
battle politically, and I think there's actually hope for real democracy
without the memetics bullshit and the control and the manipulation. 

I got a personal reply from a Senator to whom I sent that last release
(the one interviewing Michael Wilson of 7Pillars). It wasn't one of those
autoresponders -- it just said "Thank you for your views" with bad text
formatting. At least it did get someone's attention. It might be negative
attention, but dammit, if they're going to look Wilson's reputation in the
face and not at least consider that they might be wrong then they've
obviously all been killed and government programmed clones installed in
their place. They're really well educated people, for the most part ---
somewhere along the line they must have gotten that stuff about
"considering that you are incorrect" and the rest. 

While skimming their web pages looking for information, I found one or two
senators and congress reps who actually offer PGP keys on their web pages! 
Senator Leahy, for one, is a vocal proponent of strong crypto. There is
hope! Some of those people do see "the light" on this issue. It's a matter
of getting the heavy-handed ones to just for a second consider the other
side's view. I think this particular release hits hard because shit,
Wilson's the virtual incarnation of Ares, and the warmongers may listen to
him. I think a lot of them know they're being manipulated, but they get
only a limited set of information from the "authoritative" defense and
intelligence people who give them the "secret classified briefings", and
they simply can't confront the spooks because they think they'd get kicked
from their positions of power in a few years. If they have in their
possession a testimony that a defense and intelligence _scholar_ says that
the spooks are wrong, they may be able to start turning the tide. 

Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
sink to their level. 

Mark Hedges


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From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 15:27:44 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:27:44 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I just got off a phone with an industry lobbyist. The conversation went
something like this.

"Can there be a compromise?" I asked. "I don't think there can be one that
will satisfy all three or four parties involved." (I was thinking: law
enforcement, national security, business, and privacy interests.)

The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
give something to law enforcement."

-Declan







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 15:43:54 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:43:54 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 17:16 -0400 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
>the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with

I must be confused. I don't think even AF1 is that fast. Make that two
hours with the time difference.

-Declan







From pethern at inet.uni-c.dk  Thu Sep 18 15:58:29 1997
From: pethern at inet.uni-c.dk (Peter Herngaard)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:58:29 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



With such friends who needs enemies?






From lizard at dnai.com  Thu Sep 18 16:01:50 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:01:50 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709182009.NAA27806@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970918154758.00b84980@dnai.com>



At 06:09 PM 9/18/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
>give something to law enforcement."

Oh, I agree. I *definitely* think we need to give something to law
enforcement...

THE TOP TEN THINGS WE NEED TO GIVE TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
By Lizard

10)A clue
9)A good kick in the pants.
8)A copy of the US Constitution, and I don't mean the aircraft carrier.
7)Footage of Mussolini hanging upside down with his intestines draped over
this face, as a reminder of the fact that sooner or later, even the most
downtrodden people will say 'enough is enough'.
6)A picture of Aldrich Ames labelled "Would you give YOUR keys to this man?"
5)A pile of "This T-shirt is a munition" T-Shirts.
4)Another clue. (Take two! They're small!)
3)A copy of '1984', along with a note reading "This was a warning, not a
blueprint."
2)An English-Navajo dictionary.

And, lastly...
1)A boot to the head. (Nah-nah)






From kelsey at plnet.net  Thu Sep 18 16:28:27 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:28:27 +0800
Subject: Crypto-law etc
Message-ID: <199709182314.SAA23318@email.plnet.net>



> From: Chuck McManis 
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Crypto-law etc
> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 2:35 PM
 
> The longer I follow the crypto "debate" the more I begin to
> understand what must have been the real intent behind the
> 2nd amendment of the constitution.
> 
> If the White House can get crypto code defined in the true
> legal sense (that is backed up by case law) as a munition,
> do US citizens then have a constitutional right to "bear" it?

Sure.  We get the same right to bear it as we have to own rocket
launchers, machine guns, or flame throwers--none.  The second 
amendment hasn't protected our right to possess those things, 
which pretty clearly fall into the realm of its direct intentions--why
would it protect our right to use crypto, which isn't even that clear
cut?  
 
> Just curious,
> --Chuck

--John Kelsey, kelsey at counterpane.com






From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep 18 16:32:19 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:32:19 +0800
Subject: LACC:  DEA Agents Accuse CIA of Tapping Phones
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918162902.006888ac@cnw.com>



Brian B. Riley, CIA friend wrote wrote:

>>[...]     We've known for years now that 
>>the jackbooted thugs of the DEA are by far the most law-abusing, 
>>disrespectful, rights-sneering, down-and-dirty, life-threatening, 
>>hair-raising agents of the entire US Government. Bar none. They've 
>>got to be watched, because they're a nasty threat to individual 
>>liberty, and because they routinely interfere with the legitimate 
>>work of other American intelligence agencies. (And they've been 
>>monitored, by the way, since at least 1984, to my knowledge.) 
........................................................


Well, there's watching, and then there's Just Watching.   I would think
that if some agency known to be so untrustworthy that it requires
"watching", that it also deserves some action against its unacceptable
activities immediately as they are discovered.   It's rather ineffective to
just passively monitor/watch what someone is doing, and keeps doing.   This
becomes more like voyeurism.

Which recalls to mind the difference in the effect of surveillance upon
different kinds of people:  to those with personal standards for
self-control/self-government, it is highly disturbing; to those with none,
it is not even annoying.

Just a comment on surveillance in general.









From 23570800 at prodigy.com  Fri Sep 19 07:47:54 1997
From: 23570800 at prodigy.com (23570800 at prodigy.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (E17) TONER
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From 23570800 at prodigy.com  Fri Sep 19 07:47:54 1997
From: 23570800 at prodigy.com (23570800 at prodigy.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (E17) TONER
Message-ID: <>





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From shamrock at netcom.com  Thu Sep 18 16:56:44 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:56:44 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970918142320.006883e4@cnw.com>
Message-ID: 



Blanc,
I believe the  less we know about Tim's intentions for that fateful day, 
the better we are off. :-)

--Lucky


On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Blanc wrote:

> Tim May wrote:
> 
> >I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
> >way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
> >me luck!
> .................................................
> 
> 
> If you will both be there, I wish Clinton luck.
> But I missed the post wherein you explained what your visit to Stanford is
> about?
> 
> 
>     ..
> Blanc
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred






From whgiii at invweb.net  Thu Sep 18 17:04:52 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:04:52 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709182353.TAA19912@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In , on 09/18/97 
   at 06:34 PM, Declan McCullagh  said:

>At 17:16 -0400 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
>>the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with

>I must be confused. I don't think even AF1 is that fast. Make that two
>hours with the time difference.

It is my understanding that AF1 & AF2 are just modified 747's. I doubt
that they can go cross country much faster than the commerical version.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep 18 17:05:36 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:05:36 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918170111.006a4734@cnw.com>



Mark Hedges wrote about our reps in government:

>They're really well educated people, for the most part ---
>somewhere along the line they must have gotten that stuff about
>"considering that you are incorrect" and the rest. 
....................................................

Most Senators & Representatives have been educated to know the answers to
questions like:

	5. How many branches of the federal government are there?
	6. How many senators are there in the U.S. Congress?
	7. How many years are there in a Senate term?

rather than the answers to questions like:

	3.  What are the reasons for each of rights enumerated by 
	      the Bill of Rights?
	4.  What are the rights of the government?  Does it have any?
	5.  What is the difference between rights and powers?

So part of the problem is that conversations don't necessarly proceed along
the same lines; that is, towards achieving the same end.   A philosopher I
read stated that the difference in certain controversies is that the
parties are not aligned towards the same goals because they do not hold the
same *values* (even before getting into a consideration of the means used
to support those values).

But I have noted that it is much easier to discuss anything with anyone
who, regardless of their political or philosophical inclinations or past
education, has an open, rational state of mind; i.e., someone who *thinks*
about things, who is fearless about introducing facts into their mental
content and will not back away from seeing the whole picture.   Otherwise
they will be moved to make decisions based on convenience, rather than on a
wide perspective of what it will do to one's way of life in the future.

Harried Congressmen who have too many decisions to make and inadequate
background preparation and too little time to make those decisions, are not
going to be as eager to reason on the meanings and significance and
consequences of many of the bills and requests for government action which
they receive, even if they *are* bright and educated.

If I was in their position, I would think it would be imperative to know
very quickly what to eliminate from serious consideration, even more than
of calculating what sort of governing action to take.   But they are
elected to govern, and by jove, that is what they set themselves to do,
regardless.

Try to convince them that we don't need them all that much.   


    ..
Blanc






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 17:07:14 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:07:14 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 15:16 -0700 9/18/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>My problem with the "it's hopeless, politicians are idiots" approach is
>the same as my problem with Tim May's approach

Sure, not all DC politicans are idiots. Most are damn smart. All are
cunning. But just because they understand the technology doesn't mean
they're going to vote the right way.

In fact, I could see Tim May arguing if they understand the implications of
crypto, they'll //definitely// vote the wrong way.

>I got a personal reply from a Senator to whom I sent that last release
>(the one interviewing Michael Wilson of 7Pillars). It wasn't one of those
>autoresponders -- it just said "Thank you for your views" with bad text
>formatting. At least it did get someone's attention. It might be negative

Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year
just-out-of-college staffer who lives in a group house in Arlington, VA
with three other people who gets paid to answer phones, open letters,
address envelopes, and reply to email. You think it was "a a personal reply
from a Senator?" Not a chance.

>their place. They're really well educated people, for the most part ---
>somewhere along the line they must have gotten that stuff about
>"considering that you are incorrect" and the rest.

Sure, but educated people still have to pander to get elected, and to get
money to get elected. Civil liberties are anti-majoritarian by their very
nature; they and legislatures are enemies.

>While skimming their web pages looking for information, I found one or two
>senators and congress reps who actually offer PGP keys on their web pages!

So they have well-informed staffers. So what?

>Senator Leahy, for one, is a vocal proponent of strong crypto. There is
>hope! Some of those people do see "the light" on this issue. It's a matter

Senator Leahy is also the fellow who brokered the Digital Telephony deal
that ensures all are phone conversations are readily wiretappable by the
Feds. And his wacky criminal copyright proposals. And what about his crypto
bill that encourages a key escrow infrastructure? With "friends" like him
who "see the light..."

>him. I think a lot of them know they're being manipulated, but they get
>only a limited set of information from the "authoritative" defense and
>intelligence people who give them the "secret classified briefings", and

>they simply can't confront the spooks because they think they'd get kicked
>from their positions of power in a few years. If they have in their
>possession a testimony that a defense and intelligence _scholar_ says that
>the spooks are wrong, they may be able to start turning the tide.

Not quite. Even if they have it, it is (a) difficult to vote against
national security and child porn and (b) even more difficult to get
anywhere in this town if you offend law enforcement, national security, or
the defense communities. Let alone all three.

Besides, they've had the NRC report for a year and a half. It's hardly in
favor of mandatory key escrow rules, and it's co-authored by some spooks.
Think that changed anything? Guess again.

>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>Washington to get nuked.

Hear, hear!

Regards,

Declan
Washington, DC







From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep 18 17:11:32 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:11:32 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918170854.006914b4@cnw.com>



Lucky Green wrote:

>Blanc,
>I believe the  less we know about Tim's intentions for that fateful day, 
>the better we are off. :-)
................................................


Well, somebody please take notes, and maybe a camera for pictures for a web
site (in case things get very exciting).  

Inquiring minds want to know!

    ..
Blanc






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 17:40:31 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:40:31 +0800
Subject: Israeli authorities censor book, confiscate copies (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Israeli authorities censor book, confiscate copies

[Shame on the Israeli government. I suspect this would be an interesting
case for web-based mirroring. --Declan]

---

	TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) - A Tel Aviv court on Thursday temporarily
banned the sale of a book about a missing Israeli submarine after state
prosecutors claimed it endangered national security.
	Hundreds of copies of the book were ordered off bookstore shelves.
Author Michael Eldar said police searched his house and confiscated
several copies of the book as well as other documents.
[...]
	The case is unusual because the manuscript had been approved, as
required of all security-related material, by Israel's military censor.
[...]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:49:20 0200
From: "Eviather H. Ben-Zedeff" 
To: declan at well.com
Subject: Israeli authorities endangering freedom of the press

hi,

I am a journalism teacher and an editor in Israel. A friend of mine, 
Captain Mike Eldar, Israeli Navy (Ret) asked me 18 months ago to edit 
an autobiography and a book he wrote. During 1997, both books were 
published and suppressed by the Israeli military.

Please, help us to fight brutal censorship in Israel. Support freedom 
even in this remote part of the Middle East.


Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff
Department of Communication
Haifa University
Mt Carmel, Haifa, Israel





From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 18 17:51:04 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:51:04 +0800
Subject: Subscription sites for CDR...
Message-ID: <199709190059.TAA03716@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:44:24 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Re: New Computer Security Act

> (Toad.com address changed to algebra.com. Hugh Daniel confirmed to me that
> about 130 subscribers are still using the toad.com address. And he
> confirmed that none of them are getting the traffic sent to the "real"
> Cypherpunks lists, those at algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and ssz.com. I
> again urge folks to get with the program. Toad.com is going to vanish
> someday, at least as any kind of distribution site for CP traffic.)

There is also cypherpunks-e at htp.org now...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From amp at pobox.com  Thu Sep 18 17:55:54 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:55:54 +0800
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



An interesting sidenote on this... will they be able to print money?
We'd probably never notice it unless the interruption was prolonged, but it 
could have some interesting consequences if word leaked out.


------------------------
  From: Jim Burnes 

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga posted:
(and someone else wrote)

> >
> >     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world 
--
> >assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
> >public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
> >GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
> >collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
> >and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
> >how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
> >Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.

Two words,

"Sell Bonds!"


> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

Interesting juxtaposition, eh?

Jim Burnes

      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET



---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/18/97
Time: 17:57:47
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i



Tim wasn't entirely correct in June. McKain-Kerrey isn't the most extreme,
reprehensible bill: That honor goes to the Oxley amendment and the SAFE
version that Intelligence approved. (They would ban the manufacture,
distribution of non-backdoored crypto.) This is the danger of entrusting
our civil liberties to legislatures, which are inherently anti-civil
libertarian. No new legislation is better than bad new legislation.

Something close to McCain-Kerrey could well emerge as the "Grand Compromise."

-Declan

-------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:52:55 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce at vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh 
Subject: FC: On crypto -- "The Grand Compromise is Coming"

[A House international relations subcommittee this afternoon approved Rep.
Goodlatte's SAFE bill by a 14-1 vote, with some amendments. Rep. Doug
Bereuter (R-Neb.) voted against it on "national security" grounds. Details
to follow. --Declan]

*****************

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:33:38 -0700
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
From: Tim May 
Subject: The Grand Compromise is Coming

At 11:43 AM -0700 6/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Yeah, I'm going to the markup later this afternoon. I ran into Goodlatte in
>the Capitol this morning; he seemed cautiously optimistic.
>

The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
card in the coming Grand Compromise.

When even editorial writers for the Establishment Papers are against it,
when industry is against it so vocally, it won't pass the full Congress.

But it will have served its purpose.

It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
a victory, as "the best we could get."

Somewhere between SAFE, a bad bill, and McCain-Kerrey, a reprehensible
bill, lies the Grand Compromise.

I reject it all.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay at got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

*****************

From: Eric Murray 
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
To: tcmay at got.net
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:02:11 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

Tim May writes:
>
> The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
> card in the coming Grand Compromise.

Yes.  The tactic will be to use S.909 in negotiation to represent a 'fair'
government-oriented solution.   Then 'compromise' with a 'balanced'
deal which includes all that the government really wants, with a few
of the more onerous bits taken out of S.909 as 'compromise'.

As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
crypto can you go?    The government wins any game of compromise because
it can push its side as far as it wants, then demand that we meet halfway.


> It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
> with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
> a victory, as "the best we could get."

They will make it out as a victory ("send us more money") but in
reality it'll just be a little less of a defeat.


The rejectionist stance has the presumption that, if unwatched, the
government will pass a law so onerous that the people will rise up
in protest.  Unfortunately I don't think Americans will rise up in
protest over _anything_ any more.  Certainly not over basic freedoms.



--
                   Eric Murray  ericm at lne.com
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5







From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep 18 18:11:19 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:11:19 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970918180053.00689f48@cnw.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote, citing an industry lobbyist:

>The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
>give something to law enforcement."
......................................................


They could be given the idea that it would be of practical use to us
Citizen-Units if they would help us to help ourselves.

Of course, they want to be the knights who slay the fire-eating dragons,
who consummate all the power and the glory, amen.






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 18:12:40 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:12:40 +0800
Subject: Clinton speaks at Air Force, NSA birthday
Message-ID: 



	1:50 P.M. EDT
	THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.  Secretary Cohen, Secretary
Widnall, General Eberhart, Chaplain Dendinger, Chief Benkin.  To the
Air Force Band, the Air Force Academy Cadet Chorale, the friends and
families, especially the men and women of the United States Air
Force.  I'm delighted to be here as we celebrate this 50th
anniversary of the best Air Force in the world.
	Secretary Widnall thanked me for coming to your 50th birthday
party.  Actually, I thank you for having me.  Ever since I turned 50
myself, I've been looking for all the company I can find.
(Laughter.) And since I can't run for office anymore, Secretary
Cohen, I'm glad to come here and have this crowd you raised
for me.  I appreciate it very much.  (Laughter.)
	Ladies and gentlemen, 50 years ago, when our nation emerged from
the crucible of World War II, we faced a political and military
landscape that had been forever changed.  Our European allies were
devastated, the Iron Curtain was descending, the values for which we
had fought so dearly seemed under siege from Europe to Asia.  At that
moment, only the United States had the strength to uphold the
struggle for freedom around the world.  And though our people were
eager to turn their energies back home, we rose to the awesome
responsibility at hand, creating the institutions that would protect
our security and promote the cause of liberty and peace, and
eventually enable us to prevail in the Cold War and enjoy the
conditions that exist today, when, for the first time in human
history, more than one-half the people on this planet live under
governments of their own choosing.
	In 1947, 50 years ago, the four essential players in that
struggle came to life: the Central Intelligence Agency, the National
Security Council, the Department of Defense, and the United States
Air Force.  For the record, I think it should be noted that President
Truman signed this act aboard his so-called "Sacred Cow," the C-54
presidential aircraft that served back then as Air Force One.  In
case you're wondering, President Truman was just like me --he didn't
have an escape pod on his plane either.  (Laughter.) I might say, as
long as the Air Force is flying me, I don't feel the need for a way
out.  (Applause.)
	Fifty years later, our Air Force remains a world-class force
without peer, thanks to the extraordinary men and women who serve in
it.  Your soaring spirit, your dedication, your skill have helped
America to master the skies.  You've made us more secure.  You've
made the world a safer place.
	We have seen your courage and expertise in time of war.  We have
seen your compassion and sacrifice in time of peace.  We have seen
the around-the-clock flights of the Berlin airlift.  We saw you in
MiG Alley in Korea.  We saw the longest humanitarian airlift in
history during the war in Bosnia.  We saw you in the skies over
Baghdad in Desert Storm.  And just a few days ago, we saw the nine
crew members of the C-141 perish off the coast of Africa after
carrying a team of experts to help support our de-mining efforts in
Namibia.
	We have seen you rise to the challenges of our time, from the
development of the air expeditionary forces that give me an
invaluable tool in times of crisis, to last week's deployment of
Commando Solo aircraft to help prevent the enemies of peace in Bosnia
from sabotaging the Dayton Agreement.
	We have seen your vision and commitment to excel as you sharpen
your technological age to dominate the battlefields of the future.
And perhaps most important, we see in the 12 outstanding Airmen of
the Year the best traditions, the best hope and the brightest future
of the Air Force -- the leadership and talent and dedication that
make you second to none.
	I want you to know on behalf of all Americans, I am proud of
them and proud of all of you who serve in the United States Air
Force. (Applause.) To the pilots, the flight crews, the Red Horse
engineers, the technicians, the security police, the space and
missile operators -- all who contribute to the strength of America in
the skies, and to all the families who support you, our nation is
profoundly grateful.
	Today is a well-earned day of celebration for your golden legacy
of achievement.  But as you know better than anyone, there is never a
day of rest.  We pay tribute to the last 50 years with a
determination to look to our Air Force men and women to help us meet
the challenges of the next 50 years.  We know we can always count on
you; we always have.  Aim high and reach for new horizons.
	Thank you, and God bless you all.  (Applause.)







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 18:14:13 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:14:13 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709181847.OAA23460@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: 



>From the joint alert that Sameer reposted:

>> Other amendments may be proposed.  Please urge the Congressman to pass SAFE
>> "as is" and oppose any amendments.

But wait... The version of SAFE "as is" contains the ***FIRST EVER***
domestic restrictions on encryption! Why should it be passed intact? For
the sake of Beltway politicking and deal-cutting?

It includes very, very troubling severe criminal penalties for the use of
encryption in a crime. When encryption is in everything from light switches
to door knobs, any crime will include crypto, no? It would be like
criminalizing "breathing air in the commission of a crime..."

Why not just say "stop SAFE altogether?" No new laws are better than bad
new laws. And even if the crypto-in-a-crime provisions are yanked, SAFE may
be a bad bill. I wrote about this in June:

           http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

           "Please, do no harm here. Let's keep what we won,"
           says Cindy Cohn, one of the lawyers mounting an
           EFF-sponsored court challenge to the White House's
           export rules. So far that effort has been successful: A
           federal judge ruled last December that the line-by-line
           instructions in a computer program are "speech" and
           restrictions on overseas shipments violate the First
           Amendment.

           Cohn argues that both Rep. Bob Goodlatte's (R-Va.)
           SAFE bill and Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.) ProCODE
           bill could do more harm than good. She says they might
           not even help her client, a university professor who wants
           to discuss encryption without going to jail. "What effect
           would SAFE or ProCODE have? Either none or a
           detrimental one," Cohn said on Monday at a conference
           organized by the Electronic Privacy Information Center.

Why are these organizations -- CDT, VTW, Wired, EFF, ATR -- urging it be
passed intact, as is? Why should Americans give up their rights so business
can make more money on encryption exports?

-Declan
(Not speaking for anyone but myself, of course.)







From azur at netcom.com  Thu Sep 18 18:21:42 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:21:42 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
>disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
>political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
>crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
>rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
>early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
>sink to their level.

I agree that Nuking D.C. would be a shame.  Think of the Smithsonian and
all those national treasures which would be destroyed.

--Steve







From hedges at sirius.infonex.com  Thu Sep 18 18:34:22 1997
From: hedges at sirius.infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:34:22 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>In fact, I could see Tim May arguing if they understand the implications of
>crypto, they'll //definitely// vote the wrong way.

Yes, there I was possibly wrong in using M. May as an example in the
"politicians aren't stupid / smart people must do good" line. Still, in
the line of "let's not nuke Washington", it was appropriate.

>Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year

They authorize their junior staffers to use their name? Lame!

>>While skimming their web pages looking for information, I found one or two
>>senators and congress reps who actually offer PGP keys on their web pages!
>
>So they have well-informed staffers. So what?

It indicates they are concerned about the security of their
communications. Now, the trick is to convince them that escrow hampers
security of communications through the single point of failure problem.

"Let's just say we want to avoid any Imperial entanglements."

"Well, uh, that's the real trick, isn't it...and it's gonna cost you
something extra."

>Senator Leahy is also the fellow who brokered the Digital Telephony deal

Ah, more research is necessary. I printed his stuff but haven't read it
yet. There was one, though, who even had a blue ribbon on their web page.
I've forgotten who.

>>possession a testimony that a defense and intelligence _scholar_ says that
>>the spooks are wrong, they may be able to start turning the tide.
>
>Not quite. Even if they have it, it is (a) difficult to vote against
>national security and child porn and (b) even more difficult to get
>anywhere in this town if you offend law enforcement, national security, or
>the defense communities. Let alone all three.

I think a good tactic is to say to them "it's more difficult to vote
against the vast majority of your constituents" and use examples like
public opinion polls (are there any?) and California Legislature's SJR-29
(unanimous memorialization of Clinton and Congress to relax export
controls). 

In related news, Vasconcellos, the author of SJR-29 and SB-1133 (a strong
crypto promotion bill) is to announce soon if he will vie for the
Democratic nominee for California Governor. He'd be up against current Lt. 
Governor Gray Davis, whose views contrast a little with Pete Wilson's but
not too much. 

>Besides, they've had the NRC report for a year and a half. It's hardly in
>favor of mandatory key escrow rules, and it's co-authored by some spooks.
>Think that changed anything? Guess again.

Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

Mark Hedges







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 18:44:01 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:44:01 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Mark Hedges wrote:

> >Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year
> 
> They authorize their junior staffers to use their name? Lame!

Yeah, well, you probably got a form letter( they have lots of form
letters). If it was an original reply, a middle-level or senior-level
staffer okayed it.

> It indicates they are concerned about the security of their
> communications. Now, the trick is to convince them that escrow hampers
> security of communications through the single point of failure problem.

No, it indicates they want to appear to be friends of the Net so they can
pick up some bucks from lobbyists and high tech firms.

> Ah, more research is necessary. I printed his stuff but haven't read it
> yet. There was one, though, who even had a blue ribbon on their web page.
> I've forgotten who.

Votes count more than 10K GIFs.

> I think a good tactic is to say to them "it's more difficult to vote
> against the vast majority of your constituents" and use examples like
> public opinion polls (are there any?) and California Legislature's SJR-29
> (unanimous memorialization of Clinton and Congress to relax export
> controls). 

As many have pointed out it depends on the way the polls is phrased.
"Should convicted child molesters have unbreakable crypto?" Ban it now! As
for the SJR-29, your do have a good point. The tide is turning. But it'll
take years, and the battle is happening in Congress now. Defeat for
crypto-proponents is at hand...

> Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
> committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
> Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
> the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

The classified briefings include NSA, CIA, DEA, and FBI. Some are
restricted, codeword-only. There are multiple levels. I've been finding
out more but I'm working on a long-term article about this so I won't post
anything now. 

-Declan






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 18 18:50:32 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:50:32 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:14 pm -0400 on 9/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> I agree that Nuking D.C. would be a shame.  Think of the Smithsonian and
> all those national treasures which would be destroyed.

And, of course, it would be a shameful waste of a perfectly good swamp, er,
wetland.

Ooooops!

It *is* already.

Never mind...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Who wonders if Newt was really serious when he said that *all* the laws,
including the EPA "wetland" confiscation policy, are now applicable to
Congress... :-))

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep 18 19:28:15 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:28:15 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: 



Mark Hedges wrote:

>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
>disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
>political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
>crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
>rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
>early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
>sink to their level. 

The guys who beat you up in grade school are now the ones who are
running Congress.  They haven't matured, they are just upscale and
have learned better techniques.

The only problem I have with Tim May's "Nuke DC" is that he lacks
the necessary qualifier:

"Nuke D.C. now, while Congress is still in session"

ThermoNuclearMonger







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 18 19:30:39 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:30:39 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity
Message-ID: <199709190224.EAA14279@basement.replay.com>



Blanc wrot:

>On the PBS daily economics news report the other day, and an economist was
>warning that this y2k problem could lead to a recession (don't remember if
>he said it would be mild or what).   This is a possibility that the rest of
>us ought prepare for  (guess I'll have to see what Harry Brown has to say
>about it).

A recession?  Say that 20 million people figure out that they don't
have to pay their taxes.  Those 20 million will stay wealthy.  
The 25 million people employed by the federal govt in some parasitic
capacity or another will find themselves without enough money to go
around.

So, that means the FBI, DEA, BATF, Secret Service, Treasury and all
the other heavily armed, officially sponsored gangs can't feed their
habits.  They look at their badges and weapons and they get hard-ons
and decide to extort more money from the drug traders.  Only now they
want 50% instead of the 25% they take today.

Net result:  the street price of drugs will rise, causing more crime.

It'll be anarchy in the streets.  Look for Tim May carrying this sign:

    +--------------------+
    |    I Told You      |
    |  The End Was Near  |
    |  Seven Years Ago,  |
    | Check The Archives | 
    +---------++---------+
              ||
              ||

The only hope for America?  Buy more drugs to keep the traders cash 
flowing.

An artificial drug-induced happiness will descend upon the land, and
we all reelect Gore in 2004, because we're STILL STUPID SHEEPLE.  THE
DRUGS WON'T HELP!

Some things will never change.

GangMongrel







From hedges at sirius.infonex.com  Thu Sep 18 19:30:50 1997
From: hedges at sirius.infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:30:50 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Yeah, well, you probably got a form letter( they have lots of form
>letters). If it was an original reply, a middle-level or senior-level
>staffer okayed it.

I think the latter was the case. I got lots of the form responses. This
came 10 hours later and appeared hastily written. I feel special! Gosh,
democracy really works! (I'm not saying it was a big deal.) 

>No, it indicates they want to appear to be friends of the Net so they can
>pick up some bucks from lobbyists and high tech firms.
>Votes count more than 10K GIFs.

This is why I invited y'all to call me a naive idiot --- it's this cynical
stereotyping of politicians which I think more than anything obstructs
one's own attempts to talk to them and induce change rationally. If you
walk up to some random person in a bar supposing they're probably going to
knock you flat, they probably will. If you walk up to them thinking
they'll provide entertaining discussion on Heidegger, well, wait, umm...
Anyway, you see my point. Of course, you're the guy who talks to the
political community on a regular basis. Maybe they really are all clones
programmed by the government...but I doubt that. It's a novel experience
for me, so perhaps I haven't become jaded (realistic?). 

(Jade is (a) pretty (plant), though.) 

Question yourself, all y'all revolutionaries, what does the hopeless
attitude get you? Adrenalin while you get mad and hop up and down? An
excuse to use your A-K and pop a couple feds before they do the natural
thing and shoot you down? "It was a very good day ... I didn't even have
to use my A-K."

Still, I bet the lobbyists and funders who spent so much time, effort, and
coins on pushing SAFE and the rest of the (even somewhat) pro-crypto bills
are feeling pretty hopeless right now. I don't blame them. I also don't
want to sound sappy like little orphan Annie, shining with hope in the
face of the end of the world, but there's always tomorrow.

>> I think a good tactic is to say to them "it's more difficult to vote
>> against the vast majority of your constituents" and use examples like
>> public opinion polls (are there any?) and California Legislature's SJR-29
>> (unanimous memorialization of Clinton and Congress to relax export
>> controls). 
>
>As many have pointed out it depends on the way the polls is phrased.
>"Should convicted child molesters have unbreakable crypto?" Ban it now! As
>for the SJR-29, your do have a good point. The tide is turning. But it'll
>take years, and the battle is happening in Congress now. Defeat for
>crypto-proponents is at hand...

"Who writes the goddamn polls?" comes to mind. Yes, this is extremely
unfortunate. I have been wondering if the unhealthy and unwholesome spam
might be useful for this --- it would be cheap, and easy to collect survey
information. Alternatively, there might be away to do that from a web
page. Of course, people would have to go read the page. That would take
some advertising. My guess is that banner ads on the Anonymizer probably
are _too_ selectively biased --- we'd need a wide distribution.

There's always spam for sending out "the real dirt" on stuff like Panama,
Grenada, Iraq, CIA & money laundering & crack, the silent black
helicopters, Santa Cruz Island, Waco, Ruby Ridge, illegal wiretaps,
missing submarines, accidentally sold nuclear facilities, the memetics
programming, and how much money gets spent on this stuff, then
justification for either more extensive checks and balances or an
unempowered, minimal government, and finally, a plan for how to collapse
and rebuild the system without people getting hurt. I guess I would
appreciate that more than spam selling spam software.  Still, there's a
question as to whether it would hurt or help "the cause" of informing the
masses what's really going on. "National Security"? Do most people really
have any idea about who and what is to be kept "secure"? 

Has anyone ever taken a poll which has questions stilted both one way and
the other, just to see people say "I want X and not-X"?

(ubergovernment)
>I'm working on a long-term article about this so I won't post
>anything now. 

I look forward to reading that piece.

Mark Hedges






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 18 19:52:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:52:15 +0800
Subject: Because they want to be "players"
In-Reply-To: <199709181945.MAA20511@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: 



At 5:53 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>But wait... The version of SAFE "as is" contains the ***FIRST EVER***
>domestic restrictions on encryption! Why should it be passed intact? For
>the sake of Beltway politicking and deal-cutting?
>
>It includes very, very troubling severe criminal penalties for the use of
>encryption in a crime. When encryption is in everything from light switches
>to door knobs, any crime will include crypto, no? It would be like
>criminalizing "breathing air in the commission of a crime..."

Yes, SAFE is an evil bill. And anyone who supports the "use a cipher, go to
prison" language (*) is guilty of a most serious crime.

(* Some object to this slogan, saying that crypto use is not actually
outlawed. Well, neither were guns outlawed when the billboards went up in
California and other states: "Use a gun, go to prison." The meaning is
clear.)

>Why not just say "stop SAFE altogether?" No new laws are better than bad
>new laws. And even if the crypto-in-a-crime provisions are yanked, SAFE may
>be a bad bill. I wrote about this in June:

Indeed, I also condemned it earlier this year.
....
>Why are these organizations -- CDT, VTW, Wired, EFF, ATR -- urging it be
>passed intact, as is? Why should Americans give up their rights so business
>can make more money on encryption exports?
>

Because they want to be "players." And to be "players," they feel they have
to get in their at the pork barrel and bargain away our rights.

Fuck them all. They are all scum.

(The ACLU is far from perfect, but I am gaining new respect for their
absolutist stance on most civil liberties issues. I am assuming that the
ACLU will not support the "speak in Spanish while committing a crime and
get an extra 10 years" language? This, by the way, is what the "use a
cipher" language is exactly parallel to.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 18 19:57:04 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:57:04 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 5:01 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 15:16 -0700 9/18/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>>My problem with the "it's hopeless, politicians are idiots" approach is
>>the same as my problem with Tim May's approach
>
>Sure, not all DC politicans are idiots. Most are damn smart. All are
>cunning. But just because they understand the technology doesn't mean
>they're going to vote the right way.
>
>In fact, I could see Tim May arguing if they understand the implications of
>crypto, they'll //definitely// vote the wrong way.

In fact, I _have_ argued exactly this point.

Hoping that if only Congress spends more time learning about an issue, or
that we educate them better, or that smarter people enter politics, is
missing the entire point.  The technologies we are promoting are the tools
to undermine the State, make tax collection harder, and ensure that groups
like White Aryan Resistance and Hamas and so on can thrive and link up
globally, transnationally, and without government interference. In short,
the stuff I've had in my .sig for the past five years.

Democracy is the problem, not the solution. Thus, nothing Congress can do
is good for our goals, except to get the fuck out of the way. And the best
way to do that is for them to be paralyzed and confused. (This is why I
favor feeding them disinformation, and even disrupting their computer and
other systems. Get those burrowcrats spinning in their warrens.)


>>I got a personal reply from a Senator to whom I sent that last release
>>(the one interviewing Michael Wilson of 7Pillars). It wasn't one of those
>>autoresponders -- it just said "Thank you for your views" with bad text
>>formatting. At least it did get someone's attention. It might be negative
>
>Sure, you got //someone's// attention. From an $18,000-a-year
>just-out-of-college staffer who lives in a group house in Arlington, VA
>with three other people who gets paid to answer phones, open letters,
>address envelopes, and reply to email. You think it was "a a personal reply
>from a Senator?" Not a chance.

Declan echoes my cynicism. Oh, and the other thing those junior politician
wannabees do is weigh the pro/con letters. (Which is why the Republican
Right set up huge direct mail campaigns in the late 70s.)

Politics is not the answer.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Sep 18 19:58:08 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:58:08 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970919023633.008820b4@pop.pipeline.com>



Mark Hedges wrote:

>Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
>committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
>Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
>the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

There's considerable push coming from domestic law enforcement
agencies of many types and jurisdictions. See letters some of them 
have made in support of encryption controls in a House statement by 
Representative Weldon (co-sponsor with Dellums of the National 
Security Committee amendment to gut SAFE):

   http://jya.com/weldon.txt

These letters are regularly cited Freeh to show that the FBI and other
federal agencies are not alone in pushing for GAK, and to remind 
legislators that the law and order folks at home are a threat to re-election 
if they don't "give something to law enforcement."

And, Freeh often reminds that half of wiretaps are state rather than 
federal, as shown in the 1997 annual report on electronic surveillance:

   http://jya.com/wire97.htm

This is not to diminish the signficance of the burgeoning national security 
agencies, especially the 13 members of the intelligence community and 
those new-born aspirants for funds to protect the commonweal -- nearly 
every governmental jurisdiction now aims to grab a piece of the Nat Sec 
booty being converted to dual- and domestic-use, usually through 
various "justice" and "law enforcement" programs:

   http://jya.com/lec-links.htm

An avid drumbeater for more funding for protection against the nation's 
high-tech enemies (thus bringing the foreign wars home) is the President's 
Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection (PCCIP). See a recent 
news report on PCCIP's call for $1 billion to fight the homefront foe:

   http://jya.com/pccip.htm

In short, there is a growing list of self-interested domestic parties who 
have a stake in GAK and you can bet they are leaning on their 
legislators just as hard as the federal briefers who whisper secrets
and lies celebrated this week for 50 years of domestic deception in the 
national interest.

Domestic controls on crypto and other munitions are just as certain to
come as the export kind, and for the same reasons -- security of the
state. If there are insufficient external enemies to justify stupendous 
public expenditures, why, just cook up the internal kind -- as done in 
the 1900s, the 1920s, the 1930s, the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, and to 
this day.

The Bible Code foretells all.






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 18 20:07:49 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:07:49 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 7:27 PM -0700 9/18/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Mark Hedges wrote:
>
>>Mostly, I just don't want to get nuked. I don't want the people in
>>Washington to get nuked. I don't want to be ostracized because a
>>disjointed group I'm associated with has members who support nuking
>>political opponents. "Nuke DC" is crap. "Ecash Assassination Politics" is
>>crap. The loss of faith in one's ability to convince other people with
>>rational discussion is crap. That whole attitude reminds me of the guys in
>>early grade school who beat up on me because I was a nerd. I refuse to
>>sink to their level.
>
>The guys who beat you up in grade school are now the ones who are
>running Congress.  They haven't matured, they are just upscale and
>have learned better techniques.

Exactly. Bullies with any intelligence at all move into jobs that use their
psychological bent: politics, law enforcement, the military, etc.

>The only problem I have with Tim May's "Nuke DC" is that he lacks
>the necessary qualifier:
>
>"Nuke D.C. now, while Congress is still in session"

And recall that this whole "Nuke D.C." thing is a misstatement of my
original statement. "Check the archives." What I said was that I would not
shed any tears to hear on CNN one fine morning that D.C. had gotten nuked.
And in other posts I haved opinined that D.C. is one of several "soft
targets" that are best avoided.

>From reading tonight several of Mark Hedges' posts, I surmise he is not all
careful with accurately getting his facts straight.

--Tim May


--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 20:08:27 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:08:27 +0800
Subject: Crypto-ban will pass Commerce cmte next week, from Reuters
Message-ID: 



Attached below is a Reuters article on how the House Commerce committee is
about to approve an amendment banning the distribution of encryption
products without a government backdoor. The Commerce committee would then
join the Intelligence committee, which approved a similar measure last week.

I generally agree with Aaron's (who wrote the article) take on the
situation. Late this evening some lobbyists called me to promise some good
news tomorrow, but momentum is clearly against them. After the full
committee vote next Thursday, some sort of compromise legislation will
likely go to the House floor -- at least if the leadership lets it. It's
unclear whether that would happen this year or not.

So much for the millions of dollars industry wasted on crypto-lobbying. The
lobbyists (and high-tech executives) should have realized long ago that
legislatures often are enemies of civil liberties. Civil liberties are
anti-majoritarian, and usually unpopular, by their very nature. Look at
what happened with the CDA -- it took the Supreme Court to undo Congress'
bad work.

Also, I recently spoke with Rep. Michael Oxley (R-Ohio), a former FBI
agent, who's on the House Commerce committee that will consider SAFE next
week. A version of his amendment that will be introduced is at:

  http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/Oxley_Manton.html

I wrote about crypto-compromises recently at:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1412,00.html

Attached is an excerpt from my conversation with Oxley...

-Declan

*****************

IS THERE A COMPROMISE IN THE WORKS?

	I can't give you any definitive answer on that.

	They have to recognize that our committee is prepared
	to accept my amendment. The Intelligence Committee
	has already passed an amendment unanimously. The
	National Security Committee passed an amendment
	45-1. It's going to be the amendment in some
	form...

	The briefing that law enforcement and the FBI and DEA
	and the NSA and the CIA -- that was a pretty
	sobering briefing that the members got. At least
	it was in our committee. It brought up a lot of
	issues that hadn't been considered before...

	If it's a fight and it's up or down on my amendment,
	my amendment passes. Goodlatte told me that. He knew
	I had the votes. [Rep Goodlatte is the chief sponsor
	of the original SAFE bill]

WOULD YOU TAKE SEN. KYL'S LEAD AND MOVE TO BAN NOT
JUST THE DISTRIBUTION, BUT THE //USE// OF ENCRYPTION
WITHOUT A KEY RECOVERY FEATURE?

	I've had some discussions with Kyl and we're working
	with him to find out what the best approach is.

WOULD YOU INTRODUCE THE INTELLIGENCE DRAFT?

	That's still an option but we haven't made that
	determination yet. [The Intelligence committee bill
	is a slightly more extreme proposal.]

	I think the overwhelming sentiment in the House is
	towards protecting national security and providing
	law enforcement with the tools they need to combat
	this activity. This is a very complicated
	technological issue. My sense is that Bob Goodlatte
	and the folks who support that bill want other
	members to say we have to give up: we can't protect
	people from terrorists and organized crime since the
	technology has run.

HAS YOUR EXPERIENCE AS AN FBI AGENT SENSITIZED YOU TO
LOUIS FREEH'S ARGUMENTS?

	Oh clearly, sure. I used to tap phones for a living.
	That was old technology, but the concept is clearly
	the same.

-----

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:39:35 -0400
From: Aaron Pressman 
To: declan at well.com
Subject: reuters encryption story

U.S. encryption bill inspires little give and take
    By Aaron Pressman
   WASHINGTON, Sept 18 (Reuter) - Like many who have tried to broach a
compromise on the knotty issue of regulating computer encoding technology,
members of the House Commerce Committee are finding their negotiation
efforts futile, people involved said on Thursday.
   With talks deadlocked, the committee is likely to vote next week on
virtually the same amendments that would have been considered previously,
and most participants said a restrictive proposal favored by
law-enforcement agencies would carry the day.
   An essential means of safeguarding communications and electronic
commerce over the Internet, encryption products scramble information and
render it unreadable without a password or software "key."
   Barring a surprise change in momentum, the committee will likely approve
 an amendment from Rep. Mike Oxley, Republican of Ohio, to impose
restrictions for the first time on domestic sales and distribution of
encryption products, staffers and lobbyists said.
   "He has the votes," said an industry lobbyist opposed to Oxley's
amendment. "To call this negotiation is kind of a joke."
   Oxley's staff also conceded that talks were not proving fruitful. "We're
 negotiating with the other side, but I don't think there's a lot of middle
 ground here," Oxley spokeswoman Peggy Peterson said.
   One week ago, the committee postponed a vote on a bill by Virginia
Republican Bob Goodlatte that was originally intended to relax strict U.S.
export limits on encryption and prohibit mandatory backdoor access for the
government.
   The Republican leadership gave the committee two weeks to find an
approach that would be acceptable to law enforcement and national security
agencies on one side, and software companies, civil libertarians and
Internet users on the other.
   Rep. Rick White, Republican of Washington, and Rep. Ed Markey, Democrat
of Massachusetts, had prepared an amendment requiring a study on backdoor
access technologies but their proposal has not attracted much support from
the FBI or the leadership of the committee.
   "Language can be changed but at the end of the day, it doesn't get law
enforcement on board," one staffer said.
   FBI Director Louis Freeh has repeatedly told lawmakers to adopt
restrictions forcing encryption manufacturers to include features allowing
law enforcers to decode any message covertly. Freeh said without such a
law, criminals and terrorists would increasingly use encryption to thwart
FBI surveillance.
   Software companies counter that adding such features may be impossible
and would reduce the level of security provided to legitimate citizens and
businesses seeking to safeguard their communications. And civil
libertarians said the FBI proposal would permit an Orwellian intrusion of
government snooping into everyone's private affairs.
   Domestic restrictions like those in the Oxley amendment were added to
the original bill by the Select Committee on Intelligence in a classified
session last week.
   A few days earlier, the National Security Committee gutted the export
relaxation provisions drafted by Goodlatte and replaced them with export
limits tighter than current rules.
Thursday, 18 September 1997 18:06:50
RTRS [nN18296706]








From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 18 20:17:02 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:17:02 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709190326.WAA04685@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:51:40 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing

> Democracy is the problem, not the solution.

A democracy which doesn't respect its limits of power is the problem. This
has always been the problem with all forms of governments and will continue
to be the problem with all forms of government (even anarchy). People are
people, people are strange; it isn't a question of technology [1] or time.
The solution is people taking more direct and immediate action in the first
person. Always has been, always will be.

Irrespective of all the spin-doctor protestrations to the contrary not
withstanding.

Governments are governed by the 3 laws of thermodynamics just like
everything else.

You can't get ahead
You can't break even
You can't quit the game

The failing with the founding fathers is that there were not enough
amendments in the Bill of Rights explicity listing citizen rights and
federal duties and limits in the first place. THAT is the problem with
our government today: even the harshest critics of their day trusted a
federal government too much.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


[1]  Governments are a form of technology.






From fnorky at geocities.com  Thu Sep 18 20:32:03 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:32:03 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3422dbcc.201765812@mail.geocities.com>



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:40:30 -0700, you wrote:

>At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
>>> 
>>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>>
>>	Sell code.
>>
>Marketing.
>
>It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
>marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
>something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
>to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.
>
>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)

Too bad I use Agent.  PGP is not out for it.

Yea, great marketing works well.  Just look at Windows.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 18 20:33:37 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:33:37 +0800
Subject: Crypto-ban will pass Commerce cmte next week, from Reuters (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709190342.WAA04760@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:55:02 -0400
> From: Declan McCullagh 
> Subject: Crypto-ban will pass Commerce cmte next week, from Reuters

> So much for the millions of dollars industry wasted on crypto-lobbying. The
> lobbyists (and high-tech executives) should have realized long ago that
> legislatures often are enemies of civil liberties. Civil liberties are
> anti-majoritarian, and usually unpopular, by their very nature. Look at
> what happened with the CDA -- it took the Supreme Court to undo Congress'
> bad work.

I think you are confusing 'blatant self-interest without regard to others'
with civil liberties. There are no 'gay rights' or 'womens rights' or any
other sort of 'minority' rights, there simply are rights that each and every
human being holds. All this special interest crap is just that, blatant
self-serving crap at the expense of others.

Civil liberties are inherent rights human beings have by simply being human
beings. They are not a statistical effect or dependant upon who happens to
hold the current reigns of government. Their respect however, does depend on
not only the minority but the majority realizing it is in their best
long-term interest to support them. The bottem line is that it really
doesn't matter what kind of government it is, as long as everyone goes along
reasonably willingly.

What truly amazes me is that, for example, the anti-gun lobbiest have not
pushed modifying the 2nd Amendment. Shows a serious lack of character and
follow-through. Oh yeah, that would get either the states or the people
directly involved...imagine that.

Seems to me that the best way to play poker with an equal player is to go
for table stakes. Perhaps the answer is a Crypto Amendment movement, take
the political ante all the way...why mess around with some pansy-waisted
politicians in Washington...lets get 50 governors or several hundred million
Americans involved. You'd at least get PSA's and 'equal time' out of the
deal. It'd probably cost less to influence 50 governors than several hundred
congress persons.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From enoch at zipcon.net  Thu Sep 18 20:34:57 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:34:57 +0800
Subject: Israeli authorities censor book, confiscate copies (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970919032702.26929.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <19970919032835.27447.qmail@zipcon.net>



Declan reports:

> [Shame on the Israeli government. I suspect this would be an interesting
> case for web-based mirroring. --Declan]

If someone has the book in machine-readable form, it could easily be
posted on the Eternity service, and be readable by everyone in Israel. 

If the author cares more about dissemination than he does about getting
paid by the copy, this is clearly the way to go. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 18 20:44:04 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:44:04 +0800
Subject: update.337 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709190349.WAA04856@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:35:28 EDT
> From: physnews at aip.org (AIP listserver)
> Subject: update.337
> 
> 
> PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
> The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> Number 337 September 18, 1997    by Phillip F. Schewe and
> Ben Stein
> 
> REAL PHOTONS CREATE MATTER.  Einstein's equation
> E=mc^2 formulates the idea that matter can be converted into
> light and vice versa.  The vice-versa part, though, hasn't been so
> easy to bring about in the lab. But now physicists at SLAC have
> produced electron-positron pairs from the scattering of two "real"
> photons (as opposed to the "virtual" photons that mediate the
> electromagnetic scattering of charged particles).  To begin, light
> from a terawatt laser is sent into SLAC's highly focused beam of
> 47-GeV electrons.  Some of the laser photons are scattered
> backwards, and in so doing convert into high-energy gamma ray
> photons.  Some of these, in turn, scatter from other laser
> photons, affording the first ever creation of matter from light-on-
> light scattering of real photons in a lab. (D.L. Burke et al.,
> Physical Review Letters, 1 September 1997.)
> 
> DNA-GOLD NANOPARTICLES, employing the talent of DNA
> strands for recognizing and attaching to complementary strands
> and gold's electronic and optical properties, operate as a new
> kind of biosensor.  Scientists at Northwestern University glue
> various "probe" DNA segments onto tiny gold particles (13 nm
> wide).  When a "target" single-stranded DNA  introduced into the
> solution happens to be complementary to DNA already stuck to
> the particles, the probe and target strands link up, creating a sort
> of polymer network whose color is different from that of the
> original solution. Thus recognition of the target DNA is signaled
> by a color change. The researchers can already use this approach
> to detect single-strand DNA samples in 10-femtomolar amounts.  
> (Science, 22 August 1997.)






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 18 20:55:09 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:55:09 +0800
Subject: Crypto-Grams #1-#4, from Americans for Tax Reform
Message-ID: 



[From Jim Lucier and Americans for Tax Reform. These have been faxed to the
Hill all week, a different one each day. --Declan]

************

Attention, House Commerce Committee: Send this email
to a friend in France, and you both could go to jail

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo"16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



At 3:09 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I just got off a phone with an industry lobbyist. The conversation went
>something like this.
>
>"Can there be a compromise?" I asked. "I don't think there can be one that
>will satisfy all three or four parties involved." (I was thinking: law
>enforcement, national security, business, and privacy interests.)
>
>The answer: "I don't think compromise is the right word. But we need to
>give something to law enforcement."
>


Top Ten Things to Give to Law Enforcement:

10. Our first-born children.

9. A lifetime supply of toilet plungers.

8. The Master GAK key Craig Livingstone was able to snarf off the IBM PROFS
system before being fired at the White House.

7. A napalm strike called on their chief critics in Congress.

6. An 80-pound suitcase from Tajikistan, to be opened only by Lous Freeh.

5. ....

etc.

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Sep 18 21:45:14 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:45:14 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199709190450.XAA05073@einstein.ssz.com>



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
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   Main banner SAMSUNG Meet the Challenge rule
   
                TED TURNER DONATES $1 BILLION TO 'U.N. CAUSES'
                                       
     Ted Turner making his speech In this story: 
     
     * 'A billion's a good round number' 
     * 'You have to learn to give'
     * 'The world is awash in money'
       
     September 19, 1997
     Web posted at: 12:10 a.m. EST (0510 GMT)
     
     NEW YORK (CNN) -- CNN founder and Time Warner vice chairman Ted
     Turner announced Thursday night that he will donate $1 billion over
     the next decade to United Nations programs.
     
     Turner made the announcement at a dinner held in New York by the
     United Nations Association-USA to honor Turner for his contribution
     to the international community. He was presented the Global
     Leadership award by the group.
     
     Speaking of his gift, Turner said, "this is not going to go for
     administration. This is only going to go for programs, programs like
     refugees, cleaning up land mines, peacekeeping, UNICEF for the
     children, for diseases, and we're going to have a committee that
     will work with a committee of the U.N. The money can only go to U.N.
     causes."
     
     The donation will be made in 10 annual installments of $100 million
     in Time Warner stock, he said.
     
     "Present day value that's about $600,000," he joked.
     
     The 56-year-old Turner also joked that he was about to be named to
     Forbes magazine's list of the top 25 richest Americans, "and I'm
     going to push myself down the list." 
     
  'A billion's a good round number'
  
     
     
     During his speech at the New York Marriott Marquis Hotel, Turner
     said that he made the decision to donate the money only two nights
     ago. He said it was based on the increase in his net worth since the
     beginning of the year.
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     the Announcement icon vxtreme
     
     The announcement 1.5 MB/16 sec. AIFF or WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Turner explains the plan for making the donation 416 K MB/5 sec.
     AIFF or WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Turner explains the plan for making the donation 416 K MB/5 sec.
     AIFF or WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Turner explains where the money came from 621 K MB/28 sec. AIFF or
     WAV sound
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     Ted explains how the money will be spent 317 K MB/14 sec. AIFF or
     WAV sound
     
     Ted Turner's speech
     
     
     
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     
     CNN's Larry King talks with Ted Turner about his donation.
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     
     "When I got my statement in January," he said, "I was worth $2.2
     billion. Then I got another statement in August that said I was
     worth $3.2 billion. So I figure its only nine months' earnings, who
     cares?"
     
     Speaking live later with CNN's Larry King, Turner said, "I'm no
     poorer than I was nine months ago, and the world is much better
     off."
     
     Asked how he came to pick the figure $1 billion, the irrepressible
     Turner said, "A billion's a good round number."
     
  From one station to a colossus
  
     
     
     Starting in 1970 with a single UHF television station in Atlanta,
     Turner grew a global colossus that includes a smorgasbord of cable
     channels, movie studios and professional sports teams. He started
     his TBS satellite superstation in 1976 and CNN in 1980.
     
     As a yachtsman, Turner was skipper of the boat that won the
     America's Cup in 1977.
     
     In April, Turner chided fellow billionaires Bill Gates and Warren
     Buffett for not donating more money to charity.
     
     "What good is wealth sitting in the bank?" Turner said at the annual
     meeting of the Boys & Girls Clubs of America. "It's a pretty
     pathetic thing to do with your money."
     
     Turner said the gift was based on the money he'd made from the Time
     Warner stock he received when Turner Broadcasting merged with Time
     Warner to form the world's largest communications company (and CNN's
     parent company as well).
     
     He said the decision was to give the money based on the value of the
     stock, but that it is possible the stock will increase in value and
     "Who knows, I might get a little money back from this deal." 
     
  'You have to learn to give'
  
     Turner and Annan
     
     In 1996, Turner gave away $28 million, according to a survey by
     Fortune magazine. The money went to Worldwatch, the Bat Conservation
     Society, Friends of the Wild Swan and hundreds of other
     environmental causes.
     
     Turner told King that he has discovered "the more good I do, the
     more money has come in. You have to learn to give. You're not born
     to give. You're born selfish."
     
     Turner said he wanted to donate the money directly to the U.N. but
     was told by his lawyers that would not be legal. The U.N. cannot
     legally accept money from individuals, so Turner will create a
     foundation to spend the money and administer the programs.
     
     The programs are expected to focus on jobs, land mines, education
     and global warning. When King asked about global warming, Turner
     said, "Haven't you been outside lately? It's hotter than hell out
     there."
     
     Turner also said he intends to become a fund-raiser for United
     Nations causes "so everybody who is rich can expect a call."
     
     Alvaro de Soto, the U.N. assistant secretary general for political
     affairs from Peru, said Turner's gift "symbolizes the best of what
     we all admire in America. I can only hope that his gesture will
     inspire many." 
     
  'The world is awash in money'
  
     
     
     "There are so many rich guys in the world, billionaires," he said.
     "The world is awash in money and nobody knows what to do with it. We
     don't want the money they know what to do with, just the money they
     don't know what to do with."
     
     "Did you talk to Jane Fonda about this?" King said.
     
     "Yeah, two nights ago when I thought of it in a hotel room here in
     New York," Turner said.
     
     Asked her response, Turner was momentarily quiet. "It brought tears
     to her eyes," he said. "She said, 'I'm proud to be married to you.'"
     
    
   rule
   
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * Time Man of the Year 1991 - Ted Turner: Prince of the Global
       Village
     * Turner Foundation, Inc.
     * Robert Edward (Ted) Turner - Forbes Four Hundred profile
     * United Nations Home Page
     * UNESCO - United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural
       Organization
     * United Nations Development Programme 
     * United Nations Environment Programme
     * United Nations Children's Fund
     * EPA - Global Warming
     * Natural Resources Defense Council
     * Turner Foundation
       
     
     
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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 18 22:04:19 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:04:19 +0800
Subject: Supercomputer export link in National Security Committee report
In-Reply-To: <199709181634.JAA26324@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970918215030.006c8990@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>>Are we getting screwed by a false link to supercomputers?

Supercomputers have been part of the Export Controls for a long time.
Of course, a few years ago, "supercomputer == Cray-1" was the obvious
definition.  
Eugene Brooks's "Attack of the Killer Micros" has hit that industry hard.*
Some of the DEC Alpha machines hit that speed point, and lots of
lobbying was started that gradually moved the limit.  But now,
"Cray-1 ~~ Pentium-133" for basic number-crunching, though there 
are still applications requiring really high memory bandwidth where
the Cray-1 will outperform the Pentium, and the Crays have a much better 
I/O architecture than your basic PC (though PCIbus is no slouch, and
Ultra-Wide-Hyper-SCSI stuff keeps improving as well.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* "Careful with that VAX, Eugene!".  The "Attack of the Killer Micros"
was Brooks's restatement of Moore's Law for the supercomputer industry,
probably 10 years ago when I was still reading comp.arch.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From roach_s at alph.swosu.edu  Thu Sep 18 22:04:25 1997
From: roach_s at alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:04:25 +0800
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
Message-ID: <199709190450.AAA11575@www.video-collage.com>



At 12:34 PM 9/18/97 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>
>
>
>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Robert Hettinga posted:
>(and someone else wrote)
>
>> >
>> >     In 1999, chaos will hit the financial markets, all over the world --
>> >assuming that this does not happen earlier, which I do not assume.  The
>> >public will know the truth in 1999: THE DEFAULT ON U.S.
>> >GOVERNMENT DEBT IS AT HAND.  The tax man won't be able to
>> >collect in 2000.  The tax man will be blind.  Consider how many banks
>> >and money market funds are filled with T-bills and T-bonds.  Consider
>> >how the government will operate with the IRS completely shut down.
>> >Congress hasn't thought much about this.  Neither has Bill Clinton.
>
>Two words,
>
>"Sell Bonds!"
>
...
Three more words.
"Buy Precious Metals!"
With the stakes of companies relying on bonds, and other companies using
those stocks as collateral themselves, I'm expecting a good ole fashioned
crash.  Nothing that is not tangible will do.






From phelix at vallnet.com  Thu Sep 18 22:31:07 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:31:07 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
Message-ID: <3422f8ef.10451440@128.2.84.191>



On 18 Sep 1997 22:49:04 -0500, fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
wrote:

>
>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:40:30 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>>>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>>>
>>>	Sell code.
>>>
>>Marketing.
>>
>>It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
>>marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
>>something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
>>to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.
>>
>>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
>>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
>>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
>>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
>>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
>>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
>>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)
>
>Too bad I use Agent.  PGP is not out for it.
>

There are some third party programs that make using PGP with Agent easy.  I
use PGPeep(  http://kakadu.rz.uni-passau.de/~w4hoff01/pgpeep/ ).  With it,
all I have to do to decrypt a message or verify a signature is hit
CTRL+ALT+Enter.  It's not as good as having true integration, but at least
I don't have to copy to the clipboard each time.

-- Phelix






From weidai at eskimo.com  Thu Sep 18 23:01:38 1997
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:01:38 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
Message-ID: 



Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only question for
us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in this perspective, all
that industry and civil liberties lobbies can do is delay the ban. But is
this necessarily a good thing?

Here are some reasons to believe that an ealier ban might be preferable
to cypherpunks.

1. An earlier ban will do less damage to existing infrastructure.

2. A ban can not and will not stop crypto. It will force people to work
around it, but ultimately it will not achieve its goal. We might as well
start working around it sooner.

3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

4. A ban will focus public attention on crypto, especially if it creates
some of the problems mentioned above. This will accelerate deployment of
crypto after the ban is lifted.

In summary, the government is obligated to try and eventually fail to ban
crypto. We might as well let them get it over with.

I'm not suggesting that the professional lobbists stop their efforts (they
shouldn't, if only for appearances sake), but it might be time for the
rest of us to focus our attention on more important matters.







From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Sep 18 23:24:39 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:24:39 +0800
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:03 AM -0700 9/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>There's simply no way that much code can be refactored to get the "00"
>problem fixed. It isn't, of course, just a matter of doing a
>search-and-replace on "00" and replacing it with "2000." For example, the
>date code was picked to be 2 digits (back in the 1950s and 60s and well
>into the 70s, 80s, and even 90s) to save space. Switching to 4-digit dates
>would require recompilation of the code (for which the compilers may not
>even run properly any longer), and the old hardware will of course not
>accept straightforwardly recompiled code (because part of the code "tucked"
>these compressed numbers into small registers, as but one of many examples).

Note also that the standard date format for OS/360 and its descendents is
the "Julian" date, a YYDDD format.  This means those old compilers have to
be changed to use a different system call to get the current date.

In 1969, my wife participated in a previous "expand the date" project for a
company in San Francisco.  They converted from one digit dates to two
digits.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Sep 18 23:37:56 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:37:56 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:04 PM -0700 9/17/97, John Young wrote:
>The Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997 (HR1903)
>is intended to replace the Computer Security Act of 1987.
>It redefines the role of NIST in meeting federal computer security
>and encryption requirements through cooperation of industry.
>Public use of encryption is also addressed in the bill.
>
>Two lengthy reports on the bill have been issued recently, both
>of which provide overviews of the current encryption debate.
>
>House Report 105-243, published on September 3, provides a
>detailed analysis of the bill, hearings held, floor remarks and
>mark-ups since introduction:
>
>   http://jya.com/hr105-243.txt  (115K)
>
>And one published today includes recent floor remarks on
>encryption, mostly supportive of public use:
>
>   http://jya.com/hr1903-floor.htm  (44K)
>
>One point of contention is the evaluation of foreign encryption.
>The original bill put that responsibility on NIST, but the latest version
>deleted that and leaves the task to BXA (and unnamed others).
>Moreover, there's dispute over committee jurisdiction for other
>provisions.

It seems that the GAK crowd doesn't want a credible evaluation of foreign
encryption to interfere with their dream that only the US can make
encryption products.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 19 00:42:01 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:42:01 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
Message-ID: <199709190729.JAA11580@basement.replay.com>



Mark Hedges wrote:

> Does anyone know who is behind this crap that the Empire's pushing on the
> committees? Louis Freeh is the only name I've heard. I've not heard
> Tenet's name mentioned in any of this. It would be interesting to research
> the other people involved, to try to find some dirt.

  Sameer and the Dark Allies:
                        This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, The Center for Democracy &
Technology,
              the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Wired Magazine,
                        and Americans for Tax Reform






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 19 00:42:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:42:12 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
Message-ID: <199709190729.JAA11583@basement.replay.com>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> At 11:44 -0700 9/18/97, Tim May wrote:
> >I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
> >way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
> >me luck!

> Tim, just promise me if you're arrested, you'll call me (collect) from jail
> and tell me the story. (After you call your lawyer, of course.)

  Better to call Declan first...
  Everything is tried in the press these days. The courts are merely
an anachronism waiting to be declared dead when Court TV replaces
the Department of Justice.
 (Rumor has it that Janet Reno will be 'turning the letters' as the
  defendants try to guess their sentence.)

TruthMonger







From randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu  Fri Sep 19 00:45:30 1997
From: randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu (Ryan Anderson)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:45:30 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970919033829.006df54c@ece.eng.wayne.edu>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:34 PM 9/18/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 17:16 -0400 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>There's plenty of time since Air Force One only takes two hours to cross
>>the country. This from other folks in the bureau who have travelled with
>
>I must be confused. I don't think even AF1 is that fast. Make that two
>hours with the time difference.

The SR-71 does it in something around 50 minutes I think (LA->NY)
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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson -      "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso at ece.eng.wayne.edu         
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 19 01:05:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:05:08 +0800
Subject: Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis
Message-ID: <199709190800.KAA14044@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>The notion of privatizing the system will not really help much, not
>in the handful of months before the impact hits. And there are
>worrisome aspects to this privatization. Recall that previous regimes
>had problems collecting taxes, and issued "letters of marque and
>reprisal" for "privateers" to stop ships on the high seas to collect
>taxes for the crown. Sir Francis Drake made his fortune this way,
>collecting taxes for Elizabeth I.

Letters of marque and reprisal are not generally considered to be tax
collection instruments as the targets were not usually considered
legitimate sources of tax revenue in time of peace.  (Still, Tim would
probably argue that there is no meaningful distinction.)

A stronger analogy could be made to tax collection groups such as the
Farmers General in pre-revolutionary France.  Entrepreneurs could
obtain a franchise to collect taxes for the King, receiving a fraction
of the taxes collected.  My guess is that these franchises were both
purchased and granted outright.

The Farmers General were unpopular and they didn't fare well during
the Revolution.  On May 8, 1794 (Floreal 19, Year II), 27 of these
scoundrels were executed in Revolution Square, including one Antoine
Lavoisier.

The IRS does privatize some of its work in the sense that bounties are
available for informants.  They get a percentage (~10%) of the tax
revenue "recovered".  The percentage drops rapidly as the total take
increases.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 19 01:07:46 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:07:46 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919004824.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only question for
>us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in this perspective, all
>that industry and civil liberties lobbies can do is delay the ban. But is
>this necessarily a good thing?

Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  
First of all, "Soon" means "We lost already", while "Later" means 
"We haven't lost yet, even though it looks pretty much like we're 
going to lose later, but we're still fighting them on the seas
and the beaches and the bowling greens and we've taken out the 
occasional deserving politician with a well-placed bowling ball."

Also, "Later" might mean "Clinton's out of office, and some of the
Republicans have gotten in the habit of pretending they like
privacy as long as Clinton opposes it, even though it's traditionally
been the Republicans' job to rip off our privacy."

>1. An earlier ban will do less damage to existing infrastructure.

Wrong - the more time we have to deploy crypto, get the world used to it,
and make it an indispensible part of the industry, the more infrastructure
there is.
Infrastructure is good, and if we build some and they tear it down,
that's just more people lobbying against the Bad Guys.
Suppose the Feds tell half the country they need to replace their new
cellphone....
Bad enough they have to replace their Verisign key that all their Netscape
Mail uses.

Also, an early ban means the infrastructure gets built with Big Brother
Inside.  
Suppose the digital signature infrastructure gets built where every
cellphone needs a Social Security Signature Number to operate so they can find
your Voluntary Escrow Key, and every bank transaction is required to be
traceable;
compare that with a Carl Ellison style signature system that doesn't
need names, only authorizations.  And there's a whole lot of 
digital cash infrastructure to be built, that's only starting emerge
as the big financial institutions get on board.  If crypto gets banned early,
there's no chance of a Chaumian or agnostic or even vaguely private
system getting adopted, and once the Bad Infrastructure is in place,
it doesn't matter if the laws get relaxed, because the banks won't change.

The timing is especially sensitive because the Diffie-Hellman patent
just expired, and Merkle-Hellman and Hellman-Pohlig go next month,
and the whole field becomes legal for Americans to work in without
license restrictions and for Non-North-Americans to write software
they can sell in the US without licensing.  That means there should be
a lot of new products emerging in the next year or so -
and Escrowed Key Certification Authorities are especially silly in a 
Diffie-Hellman environment, where you're using the registered part of your key
to sign a random half-key used to generate the session key....

>2. A ban can not and will not stop crypto. It will force people to work
>around it, but ultimately it will not achieve its goal. We might as well
>start working around it sooner.

Momentum is good - more people working around it, and more people
working against it, and more people hassling their Congresscritters.

>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

No, the sooner it goes into effect, the later the things built with it
go away.  Think of all the places your Social Security Number has spread,
partly by design and partly because it's a convenient database key.
Will your Public Key Infrastructure ID be on all your digital transactions?
Who's going to bother replacing that with the infrastructure needed for
Web Of Trust business relationships?

Furthermore, in an Escrowed Society, encryption gets built with the
id and signatures on the outside and the privacy inside, so it's easy to trace
whose communication you're wiretapping.  That kind of architecture
isn't easily replaced, even if the key is no longer escrowed,
so traffic analysis becomes easy even after message reading becomes harder.

>4. A ban will focus public attention on crypto, especially if it creates
>some of the problems mentioned above. This will accelerate deployment of
>crypto after the ban is lifted.
>
>In summary, the government is obligated to try and eventually fail to ban
>crypto. We might as well let them get it over with.

We've blown them off over Clipper 1, Clipper 2, Clipper 3, and Clipper 4.
Better to blow them off over Clipper 5 and Clipper 6 than give in.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 19 01:08:22 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:08:22 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970918020421.006952c4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919005814.006b2fd4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:44 AM 9/18/97 -0700, Tim wrote:
>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>me luck!

Hey, good luck at Stanford!
BTW, Stanford is locally referred to as "The Farm"; isn't that also
the nickname for Langley?  It ain't Ft. Meade (which actually opened
for NSA business after the Agency had been in the Pentagon for a while)
but the CIA's having their anniversary as well.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 19 01:10:27 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:10:27 +0800
Subject: Because they want to be "players"
Message-ID: <9d208e0133c07bf689769e09b96f89a1@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
> (The ACLU is far from perfect, but I am gaining new respect for
> their absolutist stance on most civil liberties issues. I am
> assuming that the ACLU will not support the "speak in Spanish while
> committing a crime and get an extra 10 years" language? This, by the
> way, is what the "use a cipher" language is exactly parallel to.)

The ACLU does have some peculiar ideas about English, however.  A few
years ago your local Northern California chapter sued an aspirin
company because their label, including warnings, was entirely in
English.  They argued that because the company was selling aspirin in
a Spanish speaking market, the label should have been in Spanish.
(The grandmother of a child did not speak English.  The child became
seriously ill and may have died.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From hedges at sirius.infonex.com  Fri Sep 19 03:11:01 1997
From: hedges at sirius.infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:11:01 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>like White Aryan Resistance and Hamas and so on can thrive and link up

I see, well, whatever. Kinda makes me think maybe I'm wrong and should
vote for cryptofascists. However, I won't, because I don't want the
government looking over my shoulder. I think there are plenty of ways for
people whose agenda is a good, peaceful world to organize against groups
like WAR and CIA and Hamas and the rest, without having to legislate. I
don't understand how you can judge which violent, fascist, oppressive
group is the correct one to support. Did you know there are other groups
who are not violent, fascist, or oppressive? Did you know that
occasionally, violent, oppressive fascists have changed their minds? 

It is doubtful my words are not going to make any difference in the way
you see the world, but I, like you, think escrow/recovery/wiretapping
would not make the world a better place --- kind of like how looking
closely at a particle makes it behave differently than it would otherwise.
I don't think the national security folk have "a good, peaceful world" in
mind for anyone.  They have in mind a world in which a small, exclusive
group of people can use, take from and manipulate the masses. All of these
groups do.

The history of violent revolution, even in the name of the people, is
filled with the leaders of the revolution assuming the same damn
imbalanced positions of power which were there before. They might call it
a President instead of a King, or maybe Prime Minister or Premier. The
Lords might be the Regional Governors, or Senators, or Counsellors. There
might even be different people in those positions from time to time, even
elected by will of the people. But it's not the person --- it's the
position! The position crafts the person into a pre-formed caricature. Its
history, its image...it is the Throne which makes the Pharoah a God, not
the Family, or the Decree. It is the Throne which makes the decisions, and
it follows instincts of self-perpetuation like any other entity. Do you
want to sit on a throne? GAK, GAP, SMACK, CRACK. MEME SCHEME SCHMEME. 
Consider first your true objective and who you bring to war before you aim
and fire the memetic cannon...or the musket.

They all seem to fit into the same category --- Hamas, Infada, the secular
Algerian "Ninjas", the Federal urban assault task forces, DEA thugs who
raid the homes of innocent people, etc.  They're all fighting, and it
seems like people pick up any side of an issue just so they can fight.
Why? 

Consider the addiction to the feeling that comes from getting angry at
those fuckers over there on that other side and how it would feel so good
to blow their heads off. Notice how the feeling moves around your torso. 
Instead of moving it up to your head where it makes your jaw vibrate, try
moving it around...out the center of your chest through your back...up
into wing shapes behind your body. Try a tail, too. We've still got some
neurons for it.

>Democracy is the problem, not the solution. Thus, nothing Congress can do

We don't live in a democracy. Do I get to vote on HR-695? Do you? No. Has
there ever been a democracy? Not really. Do you know what democracy means?
Do you see through the lies they put forth saying that we live in a
"democracy"? Do you actually think we live in anything close to the word?

Rule by the people, of the people, and for the people. If they don't want
rules, so be it. If they want to say, gosh, killing people is lame, send
that guy to jail, so be it. If they want to say, all people shall be named
"BOB" and partake of the Dispensation of Slack, so be it. Thing is, WE THE
PEOPLE have never actually had the opportunity. We've always been too
nervous about getting our heads blown off, because so many humans are
paranoid, power-hungry and trigger-happy, and because the ones in power
positions are almost always paranoid, power-hungry, and trigger-happy, and
now have nukes. 

So you want a massively plural nuclear weapon based power model. You don't
need to promote cryptography in the name of that. It's going to happen
anyway --- it's already here. Missing Israeli subs, black market Soviet
subs with full crews at the collapse, unused nuclear facilities
"accidentally" sold as scrap metal to the private sector, the whole bit.
I hope mutual assured destruction still works. 

Mark Hedges






From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com  Fri Sep 19 03:20:47 1997
From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mix)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:20:47 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709190940.CAA15027@sirius.infonex.com>



Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayhem's reheated, 
refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
into which it is cross-ruminated.

 _ O  Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayhem
(_    |
   -'_/
   X-






From hedges at sirius.infonex.com  Fri Sep 19 03:27:33 1997
From: hedges at sirius.infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:27:33 +0800
Subject: directed speech free? request for opinions.
Message-ID: 




I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.

If you have any thoughts on the matter, please send opinions (not legal
advice, of course, if you are a lawyer). Also, if you know of any speech
rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
free, I would appreciate the pointer. 

Thank you.

Mark Hedges







From hvdl at sequent.com  Fri Sep 19 05:38:37 1997
From: hvdl at sequent.com (Unicorn)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:38:37 +0800
Subject: Judo -> Aikido...
In-Reply-To: <19970913205340.14699.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <19970919141542.45765@sequent.com>



--- On Sep 15, Dan Geer apparently wrote --------------------------------------

> i recall Tzu also saying that you need to use
> the enemy's momentum to your advantage, the 
> principle of judo if you will.  in parallel,

This has  nothing to do  with cypherpunks, but  I just could  not resist
seeing a reference to  a martial art that I still  love to practice. Dan
most likely  refers to Aikido  (and not Judo)  here. A martial  art that
uses the momentum/force  of the "partner" to disarm  h{im,er} and change
the "attack" to a victory in your advantage...

> revolutionaries of many stripes have found
> that "heightening the contrast" is necessary
> if you mean for real change to occur.  

--- and thus sprach: Dan Geer  ----------------------------

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster ================================================
     ,;( )_, )~\| A Truly Wise Man Never Plays   PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;     Leapfrog With A Unicorn...        52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========






From Syniker at aol.com  Fri Sep 19 06:08:42 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:08:42 +0800
Subject: Crypto-Grams #1-#4, from Americans for Tax Reform
Message-ID: <970919085907_-2032794501@emout17.mail.aol.com>




To: syniker at aol.com
CC: louis unfreeh at fbi.org,myfriend at staffsol.com.au
Subject: Go Directly To Jail ...
=======================
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo"16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0






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From trei at process.com  Fri Sep 19 06:56:48 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:56:48 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity.
Message-ID: <199709191344.GAA29237@toad.com>



>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]

If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax, 
collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.

Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
now....


Peter Trei
trei at process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei at process.com






From cmefford at avwashington.com  Fri Sep 19 07:51:18 1997
From: cmefford at avwashington.com (Chip Mefford)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:51:18 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity.
Message-ID: 



>>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]
>
>If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
>activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
>tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax,
>collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.
>
>Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
>now....
>
>


Naw, its gonna be real simple and clean.

The bid goes out,

Billgatus of Borg brings in a crapload of DEC/NT partner machines,
puts 500 programmers on porting the tasking and data to
Office 98, retrains the IRS on Office,
Slides right past Oct 1999 without a hitch, you
bring up M$ money on yer desktop and yer Fed Tax Check
goes straight to Redmond, who in turn pays out a percentage
to their new partners, the Fed.

The US of MS,

hahahahaha

luv
chipper




     Zz
      zZ
   |\ z    _,,,---,,_
   /,`.-'`'    _   ;-;;,_
  |,4-  ) )-,_..;\ (  `'_'
 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)







From stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com  Fri Sep 19 08:02:23 1997
From: stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com (stonedog at ns1.net-gate.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:02:23 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



"3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of
drug enforcement, LEA corruption, the creation of black market drugs of
questionable quality, gangs raiding evidence room stockpiles,
ineffectiveness, sympathetic jurors, etc. The sooner it goes into effect,
the sooner it goes away."

Once a massive enforcement agency is founded, as we've seen time and again
this century, it rarely gets smaller and more limited in scope, and _very_
rarely ever goes away altogether. And rest assured that, like the IRS,
EPA, and the Park Service, this new agency will have its own Special
Weapons teams, snipers, APV's...everything a self-respecting TLA needs.

-stonedog

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Wei Dai wrote:

> 3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
> abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
> hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
> The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.






From cme at cybercash.com  Fri Sep 19 08:13:06 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:13:06 +0800
Subject: McCain on the radio, 9/22
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919110114.0353b4d0@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Sen. McCain is scheduled to be a guest on the Diane Rehm show, Monday 9/22 
10:00-11:00, 88.5 (in DC) or 88.1 (in Balto).  This show is carried 
elsewhere in the country, so I'm cc:ing cypherpunks.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 19 09:43:17 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:43:17 +0800
Subject: New Computer Security Act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:58 AM -0700 9/19/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 11:44 AM 9/18/97 -0700, Tim wrote:
>>I doubt Clinton will be at the Fort Meade HQ for a ceremony, as he's on his
>>way to Stanford, where both of us will, amazingly enough, be tomorrow. Wish
>>me luck!
>
>Hey, good luck at Stanford!
>BTW, Stanford is locally referred to as "The Farm"; isn't that also
>the nickname for Langley?  It ain't Ft. Meade (which actually opened
>for NSA business after the Agency had been in the Pentagon for a while)
>but the CIA's having their anniversary as well.

I think "the Farm" is usually reserved for the training facility down in
the countryside of Virginia. (It may be close to, or even coterminous with,
Camp Perry, where various shooting events are held. )

This is where agents in training go to practice surveillance, escape, and
evasion, tradecraft, and so on.

BTW, the NSA's current site is older than the CIA's current site.

I attended Langley High School in 1966-67, and the CIA was basically on the
other side of the fence, through some woods. It was then labelled as
something like "Bureau of Roads Testing Division," and there was and
presumably still is some kind of testing track there. But everyone knew it
was the CIA.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cme at cybercash.com  Fri Sep 19 09:43:17 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:43:17 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709191521.IAA14754@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919122758.035d7100@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:47 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE (HR695)
>   without amendments.

Does that mean Goodlatte's original bill, or the bill as amended already by 
the National Security Subcommittee?

I believe you should be more specific in your instructions -- suggesting 
that people ask for the bill to be voted against unless it is exactly as it 
was prior to the Natl Sec involvement.  ..or, assuming it's going to be
amended and we can't stop that, ask people to ask for a vote against the
bill -- not for it.  I'm worried that the person on the phone will check the
box under "vote for" and not puzzle out the amendment level.  If bills
changed number when amended, this wouldn't be such a problem -- but as it
is, I really worry.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From 47173936 at 11641.com  Sat Sep 20 00:54:36 1997
From: 47173936 at 11641.com (47173936 at 11641.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Ultimate Non-MLM Home Based Business:..
Message-ID: <199704500730.VBA02467@mail5.netcom.com>


Me:       "Do you own a personal computer?"
You:      Yes...

Me:       "Running Windows ver 3.xx or 95?"
You:      Sure.  Why?

Me:       "Wanna' make $10,000 cash in the next 60 to 90 days?"
You:      Who wouldn't?

Me:       "Without leaving home?"
You:      Really?  What's it about?

Me:       "I own a software program that explains the business?  Do you want to download a FREE evaluation copy?"
You:      Are you going to tell me what it's about? 

Me:       "That's not the way I work.  The answers are in the software.  Do you want to download it?"
You:      Looks like I've got nothing to lose.  OK!  Where is it ?

Me:       "Just click here:  ----> http://207.213.38.77/megaresource/ or if by chance you are unable to download it,
              just call 714-280-0996 and I will email it to you and if that won't work; I will mail it to you on disk."
 You:     Ok. Works for me.





To learn about promoting your product, service or income opportunity
with email marketing, please call 714-280-0996. 


If you are not interested in home business opportunities,  you can be
removed from my mailing list by sending an email to  removemega at usa.net
No subject line or message is necessary, simply send it and you will be 
automatically removed from my mailing list.





From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 19 09:56:57 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:56:57 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
Message-ID: <0ad3e1ae4e63f5bc00877e8f0a7badd1@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only
>>question for us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in
>>this perspective, all that industry and civil liberties lobbies can
>>do is delay the ban. But is this necessarily a good thing?

>Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  First of all, "Soon" means
>"We lost already", while "Later" means "We haven't lost yet, even
>though it looks pretty much like we're going to lose later,...

Even if we lose a battle legislatively tomorrow, this does not mean we
have "lost".  In practice, people can still write code and distribute
it, the same way people are still making LSD, growing mushrooms, or
growing marijuana.  Code propagates easily which means that so long as
there is any place in the world where it can be safely used, it will
be.

Even if it is illegal throughout the world, there are going to be
places where the local administrators are too corrupt or incompetent
to really enforce the law.  (The law is more or less impossible to
enforce anyway because you have to charge people with possession of
random data.)

This means that somebody will be using the stuff, and the New
Renaissance will still happen, but the benefits will have to propagate
back into the United States for a change.

The greatest risk is of a major government going "ape" over this issue
and randomly persecuting those they suspect of doing illegal
arithmetic without real evidence or real trials.  The passing of a law
may mitigate this because they will feel as if they are doing
something, even if the "problem" was not entirely solved.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 19 09:58:20 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:58:20 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 10:45 PM -0700 9/18/97, Wei Dai wrote:

>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?


--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Fri Sep 19 10:28:35 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:28:35 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F0262E1@tceis5.indy.tce.com>



>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of
GAK,
>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts
etc.
>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.

But eventually could be 2047 (or 2097)...  I'm 40 now.  I'd like to live
to see the day.  This situation starts to unpleasantly remind me of
Heinlein's "If This Goes On...".
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"






From fnorky at geocities.com  Fri Sep 19 10:28:41 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:28:41 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3422f8ef.10451440@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3422B408.FD5A3A44@geocities.com>



phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
> 
> On 18 Sep 1997 22:49:04 -0500, fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:40:30 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >>At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> >>>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> >>>
> >>>     Sell code.
> >>>
> >>Marketing.
> >>
> >>It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great
> >>marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
> >>something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
> >>to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.
> >>
> >>PGP/Eudora is a wonderful example of this. All that is needed to use it is
> >>one extra step (after install) -- typing your passphrase to sign a message
> >>before it is sent. Otherwise, it works the same as it always has. As a side
> >>effect, you can right-click to encrypt any file you can see in Explorer.
> >>Simple, quick, and usable even by the brain-dead, once you've convinced
> >>them TO use it. (And I forgot to bring my key file to work, so my Eudora
> >>here is useless for those purposes. Bother.)
> >
> >Too bad I use Agent.  PGP is not out for it.
> >
> 
> There are some third party programs that make using PGP with Agent easy.  I
> use PGPeep(  http://kakadu.rz.uni-passau.de/~w4hoff01/pgpeep/ ).  With it,
> all I have to do to decrypt a message or verify a signature is hit
> CTRL+ALT+Enter.  It's not as good as having true integration, but at least
> I don't have to copy to the clipboard each time.
> 
> -- Phelix

I'll look into it.

-Doug






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 19 10:32:24 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:32:24 +0800
Subject: A newsgroup for exposing Usenet pedophiles
In-Reply-To: <19970919125104.12011.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
Message-ID: 



>From nelson at crynwr.com  Fri Sep 19 08:41:11 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Fri, 19 Sep 97 11:08:25 EDT
	for dlv
Received: from ns.crynwr.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
        id AA24849 for dlv at bwalk.dm.com; Fri, 19 Sep 97 08:41:11 -0400
Received: (qmail 31458 invoked by uid 0); 19 Sep 1997 12:43:53 -0000
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  by ns.crynwr.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 1997 12:43:53 -0000
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Date: 19 Sep 1997 12:51:04 -0000
Message-Id: <19970919125104.12011.qmail at desk.crynwr.com>
From: Russell Nelson 
To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Cc: steering-committee at usenet2.org, freedom-knights at jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: A newsgroup for exposing Usenet pedophiles
In-Reply-To: 
References: 

Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:

I am now filtering out any mail with the word ``vulis'' in it.
You were warned.

-- 
-russ     http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software supports freed software | PGPok | Freedom causes peace.
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Taxes feed the naked
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   |   and clothe the hungry.






From shabbir at vtw.org  Fri Sep 19 10:44:44 1997
From: shabbir at vtw.org (Shabbir J. Safdar)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:44:44 +0800
Subject: ALERT: On Monday, call Congress to stop Big Brother  amendment!
In-Reply-To: <199709191521.IAA14754@comsec.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:27 PM -0400 9/19/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 02:47 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE (HR695)
> >   without amendments.
>
> Does that mean Goodlatte's original bill, or the bill as amended already by
> the National Security Subcommittee?
>
> I believe you should be more specific in your instructions -- suggesting
> that people ask for the bill to be voted against unless it is exactly as it
> was prior to the Natl Sec involvement.

As each committee gets their hands on the bill, they do their own changes
to versions and then they are all merged later before going to the floor.
So, no, we're not asking people to urge passage of the SAFE bill with all
the awful National Security amendments.

It's a good suggestion, which we'll make clearer next time.

-S







From jim.burnes at ssds.com  Fri Sep 19 10:46:47 1997
From: jim.burnes at ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:46:47 +0800
Subject: Because they want to be "players"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:53 PM -0700 9/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >It includes very, very troubling severe criminal penalties for the use of
> >encryption in a crime. When encryption is in everything from light switches
> >to door knobs, any crime will include crypto, no? It would be like
> >criminalizing "breathing air in the commission of a crime..."
> 
> Yes, SAFE is an evil bill. And anyone who supports the "use a cipher, go to
> prison" language (*) is guilty of a most serious crime.
> 

Does this mean that if domestic un-GAK'd cryto is a crime then you get
charged twice?

(1) Once for using un-GAK'd crypto
(2) Once for using cyrpto in the commission of a crime

"..the only entrenched criminal class in America is congress"
Mark Twain
(perhaps slightly paraphrased)

      "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
               Elliot to his brother in ET








From digital_matrix at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 19 11:31:40 1997
From: digital_matrix at hotmail.com (David Downey)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:31:40 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
Message-ID: <199709191823.LAA10185@f48.hotmail.com>



>Bill Stewart wrote:
>>At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>>>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only
>>>question for us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in
>>>this perspective, all that industry and civil liberties lobbies can
>>>do is delay the ban. But is this necessarily a good thing?
>
>>Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  First of all, "Soon" means
>>"We lost already", while "Later" means "We haven't lost yet, even
>>though it looks pretty much like we're going to lose later,...
>
 The only way I see us losing is if we do not stand together. I do see 
that we will need to go underground ofr awhile, but when they see that 
they will always have a problem with us, they will eventually have to 
deal with us. That is unless they want to turn the US into a real life 
version of the movie Red Dawn!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From weidai at eskimo.com  Fri Sep 19 11:33:07 1997
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:33:07 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
> in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?

The ban on alcohol went away, why not the ban on drugs?  It won't even
require a constitutional amendment.  Are you being sarcastic or agreeing
with me?

In any case, the analogy between crypto and drugs is interesting. Perhaps
after the ban many people will obtain their crypto and crypto-related
services from organized crime. 






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 19 11:36:24 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:36:24 +0800
Subject: Costs of Mandatory Key Recovery
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: fred at stilton.cisco.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:54:35 -0700
To: ipsec at tis.com
From: Fred Baker 
Subject: Costs of Mandatory Key Recovery
Sender: owner-ipsec at ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

If you could email any hard numbers as to expected costs to Don Heath
, it would be helpful.




>>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:55:55 -0400
>>From: Philip Webre 
>>To: heath at isoc.org
>>Subject: Costs of Mandatory Key Recovery
>>Content-Disposition: inline
>>
>>As I explained over the telephone, we are trying to estimate
>>the private sector costs associated with mandatory key
>>recovery in the US.  Thursday the House Intelligence
>>Committees passed an amended version of HR 695 that
>>would mandate immediate key recovery in all encryption
>>products sold, imported or distributed in the US after
>>January 31, 2000.  It further imposes this requirement
>>on Internet service providers who provide encryption
>>services when presented by a warrant from a duly authorized
>>law enforcement official.
>>
>>We expect that within an organization like a corporate
>>LAN, key recovery can be mandated in a straight forward
>>manner.  But since the relationship between an ISP
>>and its client is more distant, very different mechanisms
>>and cost structure would surface.  I would be very
>>interested in any information you could provide regarding
>>the costs associated with such a mandate.
>>
>>Address:
>>Philip Webre
>>Congressional Budget Office
>>Natural Resources and Commerce Division
>>495 Ford House Office Bldg.
>>Washington, D.C. 20515
>>Fax Number:  202-226-0207
>>Voice:       202-226-2940
>>Internet:    Philipw at CBO.GOV
>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Planning is bringing the future into the present so that you can do
something about it now." Alan Lakein

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From digital_matrix at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 19 11:41:41 1997
From: digital_matrix at hotmail.com (David Downey)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:41:41 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970919182956.9663.qmail@hotmail.com>



test

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 19 12:09:08 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 03:09:08 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:22 AM -0700 9/19/97, Wei Dai wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
>> in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?
>
>The ban on alcohol went away, why not the ban on drugs?  It won't even
>require a constitutional amendment.  Are you being sarcastic or agreeing
>with me?
>
>In any case, the analogy between crypto and drugs is interesting. Perhaps
>after the ban many people will obtain their crypto and crypto-related
>services from organized crime.

I'm challenging your point that the difficulty of enforcement, corruption,
whatever, will be a reason crypto bans will be rescinded.

As to the difference between Prohibition and War on (Some) Drugs, there are
some differences.

With the ban on alcohol, this went against many centuries (or millenia) of
cultural norms about wine, beer, and so on. And the majority of Americans
were consumers. In particular, older, politically more influential persons.

By contrast, drug use has typically been confined to the lower classes or
the rebellious young. Not a lot of pols are dope smokers, though there are
certainly some.

Where crypto fits is not immediately clear, but certainly most Americans
are not regular users, and will not be visiting "crypto speakeasies" to
partake of forbidden code.

Also, 50 years passed between the failed experiment of Prohibition and the
still-going-strong-after-25-years War on (Some) Drugs. There is little
movement toward repealing the WOD. Further, many of the special interest
groups--pharmaceutical makers, growers, distributors, crime syndicates, the
CIA--are apparently quite happy with the status quo, for obvious reasons.

In short, I think it far likelier that a crypto ban will more closely
resemble the War on Drugs than it will the relatively short-lived
Prohibition.


(I'm off to Stanford now, so will be out of touch for a few days.)

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tien at well.com  Fri Sep 19 12:18:13 1997
From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 03:18:13 +0800
Subject: directed speech free? request for opinions.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 2:16 AM -0800 9/19/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
>directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.
>
>If you have any thoughts on the matter, please send opinions (not legal
>advice, of course, if you are a lawyer). Also, if you know of any speech
>rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
>free, I would appreciate the pointer.

I'm confused.  What in California law makes you think that the First
Amendment doesn't apply unless you speak to more than one person?  Assuming
that's what you mean by "speech directed at an individual."

Lee








From weidai at eskimo.com  Fri Sep 19 12:55:32 1997
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 03:55:32 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970919004824.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Also, "Later" might mean "Clinton's out of office, and some of the
> Republicans have gotten in the habit of pretending they like
> privacy as long as Clinton opposes it, even though it's traditionally
> been the Republicans' job to rip off our privacy."

I don't think it makes a difference who is in office. The TLAs seem
incredibly adept at converting/subverting politicians who initially
support crypto. They must have known about this ability (and by ability I
don't mean some kind of mind-control machine, but simple persuasiveness) 
for a long time, but seem to have started excercising it on a large scale
only recently. The pro-crypto lobby is pathetic by comparison. Has it
converted any anti-crypto politician to our side? This is why I think a
crypto ban is inevitable. We simply don't have the resources to defend
against this type of attack directly. A delay is possible, but not
one long enough to make the ban impossible.

As for the residual effects of the ban after it is lifted, I think you are
overestimating them. All (escrowed) crypto built during the ban should be
designed with the lift in mind. When the ban is lifted, everyone will be
able to upgrade simultaneously by simply plugging in non-escrowed crypto
and protocol modules. This can even be done without user-intervention,
similar to auto-upgrade of virus scanning modules. Compatibility betwen
escrowed and non-escrowed crypto can be kept during the upgrade period
with appropriate negotiation protocols.

The residual social effects of the ban is harder to estimate. It's
possible that it will be minimal, for example if digital bearer
instruments are so much more efficient than account based ones that people
will use them despite escrow requirements, then these can be quickly
converted to use non-escrowed crypto after the ban is lifted. But in any
case, I don't see how a short delay will make any difference. 







From dc at panix.com  Fri Sep 19 13:00:52 1997
From: dc at panix.com (David W. Crawford)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 04:00:52 +0800
Subject: key escrow arguments (fwd)
Message-ID: <42>



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Subject: key escrow arguments
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:08:56 -0400
From: Andrew Grosso 

[Published last year in the Federal Bar Journal.]

THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ARGUMENT FOR MANDATORY
KEY ESCROW ENCRYPTION: THE "DANK" CASE
REVISITED
by Andrew Grosso

     (This article is a revised version of a talk given by the
author at the 1996 RSA Data Security Conference, held in San
Francisco, California.  Mr. Grosso is a former federal prosecutor
who now has his own law practice in Washington, D.C.  His e-mail
address is agrosso at acm.org.)

     I would like to start by telling a war story.  Some years ago,
while I was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, I was asked to try a case
which had been indicted by one of my colleagues.  For reasons
which will become clear, I refer to this case as "the Dank case."

     The defendant was charged with carrying a shotgun.  This
might not seem so serious, but the defendant had a prior record.  In
fact, he had six prior convictions, three of which were considered
violent felonies.  Because of that, this defendant was facing a
mandatory fifteen years imprisonment, without parole.  Clearly, he
needed an explanation for why he was found in a park at night
carrying a shotgun.  He came up with one.

     The defendant claimed that another person, called "Dank,"
forced him to carry the gun.  "Dank," it seems, came up to him in
the park, put the shotgun in his hands, and then pulled out a
handgun and put the handgun to the defendant's head.  "Dank" then
forced the defendant to walk from one end of the park to other,
carrying this shotgun.  When the police showed up, "Dank" ran
away, leaving the defendant holding the bag, or, in this case, the
shotgun.

     The jurors chose not to believe the defendant's story,
although they spent more time considering it than I would like to
admit.  After the trial,  the defendant's story became known in my
office as "the Dank defense."  As for  myself, I referred to it as "the
devil made me do it."

     I tell you this story because it reminds me of the federal
government's efforts to justify domestic control of encryption.
Instead, of "Dank,"  it has become, "drug dealers made me do it;"
or "terrorists made me do it;" or "crypto anarchists made me do it."
There is as much of a rationale basis behind these claims as there
was behind my defendant's story of "Dank."  Let us examine some
of the arguments the government has advanced.

     It is said that wiretapping is indispensable to law
enforcement.  This is not the case.  Many complex and difficult
criminal investigations have been successfully concluded, and
successfully argued to a jury, where no audio tapes existed of the
defendants incriminating themselves.  Of those significant cases,
cited by the government, where audio tapes have proved
invaluable, such as in the John Gotti trial, the tapes have been
made through means of electronic surveillance other than wire
tapping, for example, through the use of consensual monitoring or
room bugs.  The unfetted use of domestic encryption could have no
effect on such surveillance.

     It is also said that wiretapping is necessary to prevent
crimes.  This, also, is not the case.  In order to obtain a court order
for a wire tap, the government must first possess probable cause
that a crime is being planned or is in progress.  If the government
has such probable cause concerning a crime yet in the planning
stages, and has sufficient detail about the plan to tap an individual's
telephone, then the government almost always has enough
probable cause to prevent the crime from being committed.  The
advantage which the government gains by use of a wiretap is the
chance to obtain additional evidence which can later be used to
convict the conspirators or perpetrators. Although such convictions
are desirable, they must not be confused with the ability to prevent
the crime.

     The value of mandating key escrow encryption is further
eroded by the availability of super encryption, that is, using an
additional encryption where the key is not available to the
government.  True, the government's mandate would make such
additional encryption illegal; however the deterrence effect of such
legislation is dubious at best.  An individual planning a terrorist
act, or engaging in significant drug importation, will be little
deterred by prohibitions on the means for encoding his telephone
conversations.  The result is that significant crimes will not be
affected or discouraged.

     In a similar vein, the most recent estimates of the national
cost for implementing the Digital Telephony law, which requires
that commercial telecommunications companies wiretap our
nation's communications network for the government's benefit, is
approximately three billion dollars.  Three billion dollars will buy
an enormous number of police man hours, officer training, and
crime fighting equipment.  It is difficult to see that this amount of
money, by being spent on wire tapping the nation,  is being spent
most advantageously with regard to law enforcement's needs.

     Finally, the extent of the federal government's ability to
legislate in this area is limited.  Legislation for the domestic
control of encryption must be based upon the commerce clause of
the U.S. Constitution.  That clause would not prohibit an individual
in, say, the state of California from purchasing an encryption
package manufactured in California, and using that package to
encode data on the hard drive of his computer, also located in
California.  It is highly questionable whether the commerce clause
would prohibit the in-state use of an encryption package which had
been obtained from out of state, where all the encryption in done
in-state and the encrypted data is maintained in- state.  Such being
the case, the value of domestic control of encryption to law
enforcement is doubtful.

     Now let us turn to the disadvantages of domestic control of
encryption.  Intentionally or not, such control would shift the
balance which exists between the individual and the state.  The
individual would no longer be free to conduct his personal life, or
his business, free from the risk that the government may be
watching every move.  More to the point, the individual would be
told that he would no longer be allowed to even try to conduct his
life in such a manner.  Under our constitution, it has never been the
case that the state had the right to obtain evidence in a criminal
investigation.  Rather, under our constitution, the state was given
the right to attempt to obtain such evidence.  The distinction is
crucial:  it is the difference between the operation of a free society,
and the operation of a totalitarian state.

     Our constitution is based upon the concept of ordered
liberty.  That is, there is a balance between law and order, on the
one hand, and the liberty of the individual on the other.  This is
clearly seen in our country's bill of rights, and the constitutional
protections afforded our accused:  evidence improperly obtained is
suppressed; there is a ban on the use of involuntary custodial
interrogation, including torture, and any questioning of the accused
without a lawyer; we require unanimous verdicts for convictions;
and double jeopardy and bills of attainder are prohibited.  In other
words, our system of government expressly tolerates a certain level
of crime and disorder in order to preserve liberty and individuality.
It is difficult to conceive that the same constitution which is
prepared to let a guilty man go free, rather than admit an illegally
seized murder weapon into evidence at trial, can be interpreted to
permit whole scale, nationwide, mandatory surveillance of our
nation's telecommunications system for law enforcement purposes.
It is impossible that the philosophy upon which our system of
government was founded could ever be construed to accept such a
regime.

     I began this talk with a war story, and I would like to end it
with another war story.  While a law student, I had the opportunity
to study in London for a year.  While there, I took one week, and
spent it touring the old Soviet Union.  The official Soviet tour
guide I was assigned was an intelligent woman.  As a former
Olympic athlete, she had been permitted in the 1960's to travel to
England to compete in international tennis matches.  At one point
in my tour, she asked me why I was studying in London.  I told her
that I wanted to learn what it was like to live outside of my own
country, so I chose to study in a country where I would have little
trouble with the language.  I noticed a strange expression on her
face as I said this.  It was not until my tour was over and I looked
back on that conversation that I realized why my answer had
resulted in her having that strange look.  What I had said to her was
that I had chosen to go to overseas to study; further, I had said that
I had chosen where to go.  That I could make such decisions  was a
right which she and the fellow citizens did not have.  Yes, she had
visited England, but it was because her government chose her to
go, and it was her government which decided where she should go.
In her country, at that time, her people had order, but they had no
liberty.

     In our country, the domestic control of encryption
represents a shift in the balance of our liberties.  It is a shift not
envisioned by our constitution.  If  ever to be taken, it must be
based upon a better defense than what "Dank," or law enforcement,
can provide.

end







From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 19 13:22:56 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 04:22:56 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: <199709191823.LAA10185@f48.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709191959.PAA15928@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199709191823.LAA10185 at f48.hotmail.com>, on 09/19/97 
   at 11:23 AM, "David Downey"  said:

>>Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>At 10:45 PM 9/18/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>>>>Many of us believe that a crypto ban is inevitable. The only
>>>>question for us is whether it'll happen sooner or later. Seen in
>>>>this perspective, all that industry and civil liberties lobbies can
>>>>do is delay the ban. But is this necessarily a good thing?
>>
>>>Yes.  Later is bad, but sooner is worse.  First of all, "Soon" means
>>>"We lost already", while "Later" means "We haven't lost yet, even
>>>though it looks pretty much like we're going to lose later,...
>>

> The only way I see us losing is if we do not stand together. I do see 
>that we will need to go underground ofr awhile, but when they see that 
>they will always have a problem with us, they will eventually have to 
>deal with us. That is unless they want to turn the US into a real life 
>version of the movie Red Dawn!


Oh I wouldn't be feeling to optimistic with that. We in the
crypto/anarchist community are a very small minority. Our govenrmnet would
have no qualms at all of taking us out. A nice little Reichstag Fire to
turn popular opinion against us and then the storm troopers will be sent
out. If you are expecting some type of popular support of "us" against
"them" I think you are sorely mistaken. The majority of the sheeple would
be all to happy to turn in those evil cryptologist for their 5min of fame.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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4OCdXh5+YUBECmYKTnTzIPkNzrBBOpQLy8xnaCNHItG1z1OSo1VGVeap4pye2Kpu
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VNuT+xqI8dQ=
=/uit
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From amp at pobox.com  Fri Sep 19 14:22:27 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:22:27 +0800
Subject: key escrow arguments (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <42@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET>
Message-ID: 



=snip=
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:08:56 -0400
From: Andrew Grosso 

[Published last year in the Federal Bar Journal.]

THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ARGUMENT FOR MANDATORY
KEY ESCROW ENCRYPTION: THE "DANK" CASE
REVISITED
by Andrew Grosso
=snip=
A few comments on some statements the author makes that stuck me as I read 
them...

>     Finally, the extent of the federal government's ability to
>legislate in this area is limited.  Legislation for the domestic
>control of encryption must be based upon the commerce clause of
>the U.S. Constitution.  That clause would not prohibit an individual
>in, say, the state of California from purchasing an encryption
>package manufactured in California, and using that package to
>encode data on the hard drive of his computer, also located in
>California.  It is highly questionable whether the commerce clause
>would prohibit the in-state use of an encryption package which had
>been obtained from out of state, where all the encryption in done
>in-state and the encrypted data is maintained in- state.  Such being
>the case, the value of domestic control of encryption to law
>enforcement is doubtful.

this person has obviously no familiarity with the tenuous nature of most 
"commerce clause" claims. if they can claim that a potato farmer, growing 
tomatoes locally, selling and transporting his harvest locally still falls 
under the 'commerce clause' rationale for some legislation, they can pretty 
well call anything 'interstate commerce'.

=snip=
I'll treat this next bit incrementally. 

>     Our constitution is based upon the concept of ordered
>liberty.  That is, there is a balance between law and order, on the
>one hand, and the liberty of the individual on the other.  This is
>clearly seen in our country's bill of rights, and the constitutional
>protections afforded our accused:  evidence improperly obtained is
>suppressed; 

not any more. all the cops or whoever has to do is claim  a 'good faith' 
exemption for the search, and, Bingo! it is suddenly admissable. There are 
several recent Supreme Court cases on this.

>there is a ban on the use of involuntary custodial
>interrogation, including torture, and any questioning of the accused
>without a lawyer; 

This, likewise has been narrowed in recent years by the court. One thing to 
remember if you are being spoken to by some jack-booted thug working for 
some level of the state, is to say =nothing= to them. They can sit there 
and question you at length, and until you think to demand a lawyer, you are 
screwed everything up to that point is admissable. There have even been 
recent erosions of what constitutes asking for a lawyer.

>we require unanimous verdicts for convictions;

Ever since the O.J. trial, there have been calls to eliminate this. I 
wouldn't be suprised to see it within a decade.

>and double jeopardy and bills of attainder are prohibited.  

This is absolutely laughable. You can be tried in state, federal and civil 
court for the same crime. This is all perfectly fine as faer as the courts 
are concerned. Likewise, there are so many laws now on the books, that if 
they can't get a conviction on one charge, there is a pretty good chance 
there is another charge they can make.

>In other
>words, our system of government expressly tolerates a certain level
>of crime and disorder in order to preserve liberty and individuality.

This is no longer true.

>It is difficult to conceive that the same constitution which is
>prepared to let a guilty man go free, rather than admit an illegally
>seized murder weapon into evidence at trial, can be interpreted to
>permit whole scale, nationwide, mandatory surveillance of our
>nation's telecommunications system for law enforcement purposes.
>It is impossible that the philosophy upon which our system of
>government was founded could ever be construed to accept such a
>regime.

I laugh at that. 


>    In our country, the domestic control of encryption
>represents a shift in the balance of our liberties.  It is a shift not
>envisioned by our constitution.  If  ever to be taken, it must be
>based upon a better defense than what "Dank," or law enforcement,
>can provide.


true enough. the problem is, that there is no defense for it. it is a basic 
binary decision. either you can speak freely or not. 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/19/97
Time: 15:57:50
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i



This is a very well-written article, so I am forwarding this to
cypherpunks at algebra.com and cryptography at c2.net so everyone can see
it.  Apologies in advance to those seeing double or triple copying due
to the forwards.

Ern

 From: "David W. Crawford" 
 Subject: key escrow arguments (fwd)
 
 Forwarded message:
 From rre-request at weber.ucsd.edu Thu Sep 18 23:31:28 1997
 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
 From: Phil Agre 
 To: rre at weber.ucsd.edu
 Subject: key escrow arguments
 
 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:08:56 -0400
 From: Andrew Grosso 
 
 [Published last year in the Federal Bar Journal.]
 
 THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ARGUMENT FOR MANDATORY
 KEY ESCROW ENCRYPTION: THE "DANK" CASE
 REVISITED
 by Andrew Grosso
 
      (This article is a revised version of a talk given by the
 author at the 1996 RSA Data Security Conference, held in San
 Francisco, California.  Mr. Grosso is a former federal prosecutor
 who now has his own law practice in Washington, D.C.  His e-mail
 address is agrosso at acm.org.)
 
      I would like to start by telling a war story.  Some years ago,
 while I was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, I was asked to try a case
 which had been indicted by one of my colleagues.  For reasons
 which will become clear, I refer to this case as "the Dank case."
 
      The defendant was charged with carrying a shotgun.  This
 might not seem so serious, but the defendant had a prior record.  In
 fact, he had six prior convictions, three of which were considered
 violent felonies.  Because of that, this defendant was facing a
 mandatory fifteen years imprisonment, without parole.  Clearly, he
 needed an explanation for why he was found in a park at night
 carrying a shotgun.  He came up with one.
 
      The defendant claimed that another person, called "Dank,"
 forced him to carry the gun.  "Dank," it seems, came up to him in
 the park, put the shotgun in his hands, and then pulled out a
 handgun and put the handgun to the defendant's head.  "Dank" then
 forced the defendant to walk from one end of the park to other,
 carrying this shotgun.  When the police showed up, "Dank" ran
 away, leaving the defendant holding the bag, or, in this case, the
 shotgun.
 
      The jurors chose not to believe the defendant's story,
 although they spent more time considering it than I would like to
 admit.  After the trial,  the defendant's story became known in my
 office as "the Dank defense."  As for  myself, I referred to it as "the
 devil made me do it."
 
      I tell you this story because it reminds me of the federal
 government's efforts to justify domestic control of encryption.
 Instead, of "Dank,"  it has become, "drug dealers made me do it;"
 or "terrorists made me do it;" or "crypto anarchists made me do it."
 There is as much of a rationale basis behind these claims as there
 was behind my defendant's story of "Dank."  Let us examine some
 of the arguments the government has advanced.
 
      It is said that wiretapping is indispensable to law
 enforcement.  This is not the case.  Many complex and difficult
 criminal investigations have been successfully concluded, and
 successfully argued to a jury, where no audio tapes existed of the
 defendants incriminating themselves.  Of those significant cases,
 cited by the government, where audio tapes have proved
 invaluable, such as in the John Gotti trial, the tapes have been
 made through means of electronic surveillance other than wire
 tapping, for example, through the use of consensual monitoring or
 room bugs.  The unfetted use of domestic encryption could have no
 effect on such surveillance.
 
      It is also said that wiretapping is necessary to prevent
 crimes.  This, also, is not the case.  In order to obtain a court order
 for a wire tap, the government must first possess probable cause
 that a crime is being planned or is in progress.  If the government
 has such probable cause concerning a crime yet in the planning
 stages, and has sufficient detail about the plan to tap an individual's
 telephone, then the government almost always has enough
 probable cause to prevent the crime from being committed.  The
 advantage which the government gains by use of a wiretap is the
 chance to obtain additional evidence which can later be used to
 convict the conspirators or perpetrators. Although such convictions
 are desirable, they must not be confused with the ability to prevent
 the crime.
 
      The value of mandating key escrow encryption is further
 eroded by the availability of super encryption, that is, using an
 additional encryption where the key is not available to the
 government.  True, the government's mandate would make such
 additional encryption illegal; however the deterrence effect of such
 legislation is dubious at best.  An individual planning a terrorist
 act, or engaging in significant drug importation, will be little
 deterred by prohibitions on the means for encoding his telephone
 conversations.  The result is that significant crimes will not be
 affected or discouraged.
 
      In a similar vein, the most recent estimates of the national
 cost for implementing the Digital Telephony law, which requires
 that commercial telecommunications companies wiretap our
 nation's communications network for the government's benefit, is
 approximately three billion dollars.  Three billion dollars will buy
 an enormous number of police man hours, officer training, and
 crime fighting equipment.  It is difficult to see that this amount of
 money, by being spent on wire tapping the nation,  is being spent
 most advantageously with regard to law enforcement's needs.
 
      Finally, the extent of the federal government's ability to
 legislate in this area is limited.  Legislation for the domestic
 control of encryption must be based upon the commerce clause of
 the U.S. Constitution.  That clause would not prohibit an individual
 in, say, the state of California from purchasing an encryption
 package manufactured in California, and using that package to
 encode data on the hard drive of his computer, also located in
 California.  It is highly questionable whether the commerce clause
 would prohibit the in-state use of an encryption package which had
 been obtained from out of state, where all the encryption in done
 in-state and the encrypted data is maintained in- state.  Such being
 the case, the value of domestic control of encryption to law
 enforcement is doubtful.
 
      Now let us turn to the disadvantages of domestic control of
 encryption.  Intentionally or not, such control would shift the
 balance which exists between the individual and the state.  The
 individual would no longer be free to conduct his personal life, or
 his business, free from the risk that the government may be
 watching every move.  More to the point, the individual would be
 told that he would no longer be allowed to even try to conduct his
 life in such a manner.  Under our constitution, it has never been the
 case that the state had the right to obtain evidence in a criminal
 investigation.  Rather, under our constitution, the state was given
 the right to attempt to obtain such evidence.  The distinction is
 crucial:  it is the difference between the operation of a free society,
 and the operation of a totalitarian state.
 
      Our constitution is based upon the concept of ordered
 liberty.  That is, there is a balance between law and order, on the
 one hand, and the liberty of the individual on the other.  This is
 clearly seen in our country's bill of rights, and the constitutional
 protections afforded our accused:  evidence improperly obtained is
 suppressed; there is a ban on the use of involuntary custodial
 interrogation, including torture, and any questioning of the accused
 without a lawyer; we require unanimous verdicts for convictions;
 and double jeopardy and bills of attainder are prohibited.  In other
 words, our system of government expressly tolerates a certain level
 of crime and disorder in order to preserve liberty and individuality.
 It is difficult to conceive that the same constitution which is
 prepared to let a guilty man go free, rather than admit an illegally
 seized murder weapon into evidence at trial, can be interpreted to
 permit whole scale, nationwide, mandatory surveillance of our
 nation's telecommunications system for law enforcement purposes.
 It is impossible that the philosophy upon which our system of
 government was founded could ever be construed to accept such a
 regime.
 
      I began this talk with a war story, and I would like to end it
 with another war story.  While a law student, I had the opportunity
 to study in London for a year.  While there, I took one week, and
 spent it touring the old Soviet Union.  The official Soviet tour
 guide I was assigned was an intelligent woman.  As a former
 Olympic athlete, she had been permitted in the 1960's to travel to
 England to compete in international tennis matches.  At one point
 in my tour, she asked me why I was studying in London.  I told her
 that I wanted to learn what it was like to live outside of my own
 country, so I chose to study in a country where I would have little
 trouble with the language.  I noticed a strange expression on her
 face as I said this.  It was not until my tour was over and I looked
 back on that conversation that I realized why my answer had
 resulted in her having that strange look.  What I had said to her was
 that I had chosen to go to overseas to study; further, I had said that
 I had chosen where to go.  That I could make such decisions  was a
 right which she and the fellow citizens did not have.  Yes, she had
 visited England, but it was because her government chose her to
 go, and it was her government which decided where she should go.
 In her country, at that time, her people had order, but they had no
 liberty.
 
      In our country, the domestic control of encryption
 represents a shift in the balance of our liberties.  It is a shift not
 envisioned by our constitution.  If  ever to be taken, it must be
 based upon a better defense than what "Dank," or law enforcement,
 can provide.
 
 end






From holovacs at idt.net  Fri Sep 19 15:19:23 1997
From: holovacs at idt.net (jay holovacs)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 06:19:23 +0800
Subject: Because they want to be "players"
Message-ID: <199709192203.SAA11518@u2.farm.idt.net>




==========================
   >From:    	Tim May 
   >To:        	Declan McCullagh ; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;cypherpunks at toad.com
   >Subject:    	Because they want to be "players"
   >Date:    	Thu, Sep 18, 1997 10:37 PM
   >
   >Yes, SAFE is an evil bill. And anyone who supports the "use a cipher, go to
   >prison" language (*) is guilty of a most serious crime.

In NY (as possibly other places), wearing a bullet resistant vest while doing something illegal is itself a crime. While it might be argued that messing around with guns can hurt bystanders, no one was ever injured by a stray bullet resisting vest.

Jay






From digital_matrix at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 19 15:36:34 1997
From: digital_matrix at hotmail.com (David Downey)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 06:36:34 +0800
Subject: key escrow arguments (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970919222321.1672.qmail@hotmail.com>




      Am I just being paranoid or am I seeing a pattern here? Let me 
point out a few items that have sprung to mind after reading the post. 

1) The government is trying to take away our right to strong private    
crypto because they do not have access to the decrypting key at    
either end. This nullifies any type of access they "need" to have    to 
those transmissions. 

2) They also are trying to use their market power to force companies    
to manufacture and sell crypto products that use government backed    
algorythms. (Which of course include the "back door" features they    so 
loudly claim they need.) Such as when they told AT&T that they    would 
buy 2.3 million Secure 3600 series phones from them *if* they       put 
the government designed Fortezza(?) chip in them.

3) They classified crypto as a munition, like a fighter jet or tank,    
in an attempt to take it out of the realm of Constitutional Right.    
(Though it seems they forgot about the "Right to bear arms" part) 

4) They forced the telephone industry to write their software in such    
a way as to instantly allow them access to any and *all* lines. 
   (In the event that they should "need" to tap the line as per a    
supposedly legally obtained court order from an Artical III federal    
court judge. (Ummm.. Do they really think that we don't know what    it 
takes to obtain that high a level of a political seating in the          
judiciary branch?)

5) They stirred up the media which in turn roused the sheeple. THe    
rally cry was child porn.


      Is there a pattern here, or am I just going out of what is left of 
my mind?






______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 19 16:32:39 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:32:39 +0800
Subject: Because they want to be "players"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:36 -0600 9/19/97, Jim Burnes wrote:
>Does this mean that if domestic un-GAK'd cryto is a crime then you get
>charged twice?
>
>(1) Once for using un-GAK'd crypto
>(2) Once for using cyrpto in the commission of a crime

Yes.

-Declan







From whgiii at invweb.net  Fri Sep 19 16:36:06 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:36:06 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
Message-ID: <199709192329.TAA20724@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

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The following message is forwarded to you by William H. Geiger III
 (listed as the From user of this message).  The
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 and has been set as the "Reply-To" field of
this message.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>From: "David Downey" 
>To: whgiii at invweb.net
>Subject: Re: sooner or later
>Content-Type: text/plain
>Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:41:28 -0500
>X-Old_TimeStamp: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:41:28 -700
>Status:   

>Oh I wouldn't be feeling to optimistic with that. We in the
>crypto/anarchist community are a very small minority. Our govenrmnet 
>would have no qualms at all of taking us out. A nice little Reichstag 
>Fire to turn popular opinion against us and then the storm troopers 
>will be sent out. If you are expecting some type of popular support >of 
"us" against "them" I think you are sorely mistaken. The majority >of  the
sheeple would be all to happy to turn in those evil >cryptologist  for
their 5min of fame.
>

    I wouldn't say that we are that small of a minority. There are many 
folks out there that feel the same way that we do. I know of a large 
community in Kentucky, USA that feel that the government is slowly  trying
to institute a police state. (And no, I do not mean a militia,  though
many of them are friends that I had the honor of serving with in  the US
Army.)  The viewpoint that I am trying to get accross comes from  looking
at history. Although many groups that went against governments  were in
fact wiped out, they left an indeligible mark on the minds and  attitudes
of future generations. Some even to the point of creating  another
generation of "freedom fighters" that actually forced the  government to
radically re-evaluate it's stance on certain items. (There  are too many
incidences of this to mention, though the slave movement in  Rome, and the
Spartan soldier revolt do come to mind.)        What is to  say that with
the physical fire-power of today, and good old fashion  American grit such
as was shown at Iwa Jima by the US Marine Corp, we  could not show the
Government that we could not change their minds? I  personally would hate
for things to come down to that level, yet it  seems that they are forcing
us more and more towards that path.  (Please  don't misread my statements.
I do not advocate the overthrow of the  government. I merely am commenting
on the fact that the factors which  contributed to the American Civil War
becoming a reality are once again  present today. If another war should
break out today... let's just say  that is one nightmare I'd prefer *not*
to have!




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -----------------------------------------------------
 -- End of forwarded message
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William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Sep 19 17:11:49 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:11:49 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Pager Hacked
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970919235635.0083e058@pop.pipeline.com>



Dave Wagner passed on a story about the hacking of
the White House Communications Agency's pager
system, with commentary on what was lifted and the
possible consequences for crypto policy:

   http://jya.com/potus-hack.htm

The full report on the hack is online at:

   http://www.inch.com/~esoteric/pam_suggestion/formal.html

With links to the transcript. The big-time media are about
to break the story worldwide according to Dave.

   






From eff at dev.null  Fri Sep 19 17:16:50 1997
From: eff at dev.null (EFF)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:16:50 +0800
Subject: Bill Gates gives 1 Billion to EFF!
Message-ID: <34231402.11DD@dev.null>



[EFF - Bienfait, Saskatchewan] News Release:

         Gates Gives Gargantuan Gift to Gullability Grifters!
         ----------------------------------------------------
 In a suprise announcement this afternoon, Bill Gates announced that he
would be donating a billion dollars over the next ten years to the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, for use in promoting CypherPunks Action
Projects.

 Gates emphasized that this plan had been in preparation for quite some
time, and was not a response to the publicity-seeking Ted Turner's
challenge to the rich and notorious. He also pointed out that he, unlike
Turner, had nothing but the most self-serving of intentions.
 "I have asked that none of the money go directly to the projects, but
only toward the administration of the CypherPunks Action Projects." he
stated. "I expect that the CAP's will become rather top-heavy and, being
overseen by the Electronic Forgery Foundation, will be able to compete 
with the sheer volume of lies that the government uses to suppress free
speech and liberty in the U.S.

  Chief CypherPunks Spokesperson, TruthMonger, thanked Gates profusely 
for the gift, babbling and drooling at times, while accepting the first
check and handing Gates an envelope about the size needed to contain
photographic negatives. Gates immediately burned the envelope.
  TruthMonger stated that he had met with the EFF Board of Directors,
including ? the Lunatic, Toto, The Real Guy, and A Player To Be Named
Later, and that all of them had been anonymous in agreeing that the
first order of business would be to purchase a liquor store from which
to run the CypherPunks Action Projects.
  TruthMonger then put on an aluminum foil hat and, addressing the
crowd as ? the Lunatic, said, "We will naturally be replacing the
staff of the liquor stores with people more in tune with the goals of
the CypherPunks.", adding that he had already put out some 'feelers'
at local tit-bars in this regard.

  Bill Gates explained that a top-heavy disorganization, such as he
envisioned with the EFF running the CAPs, would stand a good chance
of becoming a self-feeding monster which could promote strong crypto
at the same time as bending the multitudes to do his bidding as the
year 2000 elections approached.
  When asked by a reporter if he was the Anti-Christ, Gates grinned
and replied, "I could tell you...but then I'd have to burn you in
Hell, forever."

  Reporters were quick to ask the EFF directors how they planned to
protect their forseen rise in power and influence from being sabotaged
by veteran CypherPunks who might use strong encryption to thwart the
attempts of Big Money to harness their reputation capital to promote
their own agenda.
  Taking off the aluminum hat and whipping out his dick, The Real Guy
stated, "Well, of course we will have to forbid use of non-GAK'ed 
cryto by EFF employees, in the interests of Foundation Security. Or,
alternatively, we may limit the use of encryption by our employees to
8-bit crypto products." Smiling sheepishly, he added, "We're not real
good at math."

  At this point, shots rang out from the window of a nearby building,
as well as from a grassy knoll and several other places, dropping many
of those gathered at the press conference like flies.
  As Gates and TruthMonger made their getaway in an armored limousene,
several CypherPunks were heard arguing on the grassy knoll as to whether
it had been a mistake to shoot the lawyers first.

  A later memo to the press from MicroSoft indicated that the official
announcement of the donation would be released in an upcoming chapter
of "InfoWar (Part III of the True Story of the InterNet), written by
Bill Gates, himself.
  When asked about the possibility of Gates having presented the EFF 
with a forged check, sources at MicroSoft merely giggled.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This announcement is copyrighted under the auspices of the Electronic
Forgery Foundation. Any misuse or misquoting of the announcement will
be considered par for the course.
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 19 17:18:40 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:18:40 +0800
Subject: Freeh peachs / Re: directed speech free? request for opinions.
Message-ID: <199709200010.CAA14440@basement.replay.com>



Mark Hedges wrote:
> 
> I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
> directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.
> 
> if you know of any speech
> rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
> free, I would appreciate the pointer.

  If their answer is in regard to a speech by Freeh, then it would be
free speech about free speech about a Freeh speech.
  If not, it would be about Freeh-free free speech.

WordMonger







From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 19 17:31:58 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:31:58 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
Message-ID: <70de0fed85246803851f73a44ad2527a@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 10:45 PM -0700 9/18/97, Wei Dai wrote:
>
>>3. A ban will eventually be lifted, because of the impracticality of GAK,
>>abuses, wide-spread security problems caused by added complexity or
>>hackers stealing the master keys, ineffectiveness, sympathetic courts etc.
>>The sooner it comes into effect, the sooner it goes away.
>
>You mean like the way the ban on drugs was impractical and could be skirted
>in various ways, forcing the ban on drugs to "go away"?

I understand alcohol is legal now, so it worked once for one drug.

The drugs ban isn't all that meaningful, anyway.  You can go into any
major U.S. city without any connections and score crack within three
hours if you look the part and know what you are doing.  I've known
many drug users and abusers over many years and none have gone to
jail.

Software doesn't weigh anything and it doesn't take up much space.
Trafficking is trivial.  The flow of tools will not stop.

What will stop is open development by the software industry and this
will cause irreparable damage.  Fortunately, the industry does form a
wealthy constituency.  If it becomes clear that restricting particular
classes of algorithm significantly hampers business, look to seeing
these bans lifted.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 19 17:37:20 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:37:20 +0800
Subject: McCain on the radio, 9/22
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970919110114.0353b4d0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: 



At 11:01 -0400 9/19/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
>Sen. McCain is scheduled to be a guest on the Diane Rehm show, Monday 9/22
>10:00-11:00, 88.5 (in DC) or 88.1 (in Balto).  This show is carried
>elsewhere in the country, so I'm cc:ing cypherpunks.

He's probably going to dance around his non-presidential bid.

SATURDAY:

	7 p.m. The Capital Gang. Topics: Tamraz testimony, the tobacco deal
and congressional pay raises. Guests: Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

SUNDAY:

NBC's "Meet the Press" - Topics: Tobacco deal and campaign finance reform.
Guests: Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, tobacco industry negotiator
J. Phil Carlton and Sens. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, John McCain, R-Ariz.,
Russell Feingold, D-Wis., and Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.

-Declan







From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 19 18:07:01 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:07:01 +0800
Subject: Crypto-opponent senator to run for president?
Message-ID: 




[Sen. McCain, chair of Senate Commerce, is dancing around the idea of
running for president. Folks who are interested in privacy may remember
that he was more than slightly involved in the McCain-Kerrey bill. His
committee approved it, which derailed pro-crypto legislation in the
Senate. Not only that, he seems to be holding onto the bill (not reporting
it) to prevent any other committees from improving it. Judiciary in
particular would like to consider it. Note they wouldn't make it a
//good// bill, just not quite as bad. --Declan]

***************

	19  MCCAIN:  PRESIDENTIAL AMBITIONS?
	Washington Times' Hallow notes that "the first words" out of
Sen. John McCain's (R-AZ) mouth at a 9/19 luncheon with political
reporters "alluded to his running for higher office."  Noting
that he had "slimmed down," McCain joked: "Anyone who wants to be
emperor has to do that, and I'd much prefer that than president." 
McCain "acknowledged" that "he is positioning himself
ideologically somewhere between" NC Sen. Jesse Helms and ex-MA
Gov. Bill Weld (9/19).
	McCain responded to Hallow's story during C-SPAN's
"Washington Journal": "I was asked if I was considering running
for President of the United States and I said exactly what I've
been saying for a long time now, exactly that.  I said I will
examine the option in 1998. ... I don't have a PAC, I don't have
a committee, I don't have an organization.  I don't have any of
the accouterments that go to a presidential campaign and I don't
intend to have one unless I decide to run" (9/19).
	USA Today's Lawrence profiles McCain.  Does he think about
running for president?  "Nightly," he jokes.  McCain "says the
one-word description of his candidacy is 'impractical.'  He reels
off complications," from his Senate race, late start and
opposition to ethanol subsidies to his support for MFN for China;
"from the risque past he knows would arise in a national campaign
to his sense that Americans do not long for 'something different
than the standard politician'" (9/19).








From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep 19 18:29:54 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:29:54 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Pager Hacked
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970919235635.0083e058@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



I got a copy of the transcript last week. We decided not to run with it.
But someone on f-c posted that ABC News ran something last night.

-Declan



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, John Young wrote:

> Dave Wagner passed on a story about the hacking of
> the White House Communications Agency's pager
> system, with commentary on what was lifted and the
> possible consequences for crypto policy:
> 
>    http://jya.com/potus-hack.htm
> 
> The full report on the hack is online at:
> 
>    http://www.inch.com/~esoteric/pam_suggestion/formal.html
> 
> With links to the transcript. The big-time media are about
> to break the story worldwide according to Dave.
> 
>    
> 
> 






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From: 25160516 at 07109.com (25160516 at 07109.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:32:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: From Me.
Message-ID: <199708900730.VBA02467@mail5.netcom.com>


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From minow at apple.com  Fri Sep 19 19:53:29 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:53:29 +0800
Subject: Swiss Bank Accounts Secrecy Lifted
Message-ID: 



Summarizing an article on the Svenska Dagbladed web page:

Swiss bank accounts are no longer good for hiding illegal money.
The Swiss government has, for the first time, paid money smuggled
out by a former dictator to the country's current government.
The Swiss government returned about $2 million that was hidden
in a Swiss bank account by Moussa Traore, former dictator of Mali.

Processes are currently underway regarding Zaire's former dicator
Sese Seko Mobuto and Phillipine dictator Ferdinand Marcos, and
several others.

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com










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From: TiarracorpIAG at TheOffice.net (TiarracorpIAG at TheOffice.net)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More Money for You ... Try It !!!
Message-ID: <199709201441.LAA27764@north.nsis.com>


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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 19 20:32:19 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:32:19 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity.
In-Reply-To: <199709191344.GAA29237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970919113848.0068ef38@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 09:48 AM 9/19/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]
>
>If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
>activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
>tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax, 
>collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.

That'd only work if all the Post Office employees were armed.
Do they really want _more_ of that?  :-)

>Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
>now....

Actually, the way they'd probably pull it off, since checks tend
to be delivered by mail, is to open all the mail that looked like
it might contain checks or valuable goods and only deliver it
in return for sales tax payments.  Not that they have the infrastructure
to do that any more either....
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Fri Sep 19 20:51:01 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:51:01 +0800
Subject: sooner or later
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709200350.XAA02057@cti06.citenet.net>



> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim May wrote:

>  By contrast, drug use has typically been confined to the lower classes or
>  the rebellious young. Not a lot of pols are dope smokers [snip]

Well, at least not inhalers...

Ciao

jfa






From attila at hun.org  Fri Sep 19 22:20:34 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:20:34 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Pager Hacked
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970919235635.0083e058@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709200510.XAA24027@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    intercepting the pager signals (effectively in the clear) is
    one thing: breach of personal security for POTUS.

    however, the real issue would be interferring (or even false
    messages) on a single channel system (not even spread spectrum)

    THIS is precisely why the government fears encrytion! They simply do 
    not understand it; they do NOT want to understand it, and like all 
    other problems of government, they want to make it illegal and sweep 
    it under the carpet which will make it go away!  yeah, right....

    the secondary issue is organized government, elected or not, has
    its own agenda: to stay in power.  any empowerment of the mass
    is a threat to their supremacy.  or, as I like to think of it,
    government obsession with itself is like a self eating watermelon.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From bianca at dev.null  Sat Sep 20 00:33:34 1997
From: bianca at dev.null (Bianca)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:33:34 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 15 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <34237937.120B@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 15759 bytes
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URL: 

From libeiqia at aol.com  Sat Sep 20 17:39:50 1997
From: libeiqia at aol.com (Debt Management Club)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Have Your Bills Paid For You WITHOUT Paying the Funds Back! EVER!!
Message-ID: <199709201011SAA14905@whosit.lmtribune.com>


                       
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From bianca at dev.null  Sat Sep 20 04:18:49 1997
From: bianca at dev.null (Bianca)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:18:49 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 15 / The GeigerBurg Text
Message-ID: <3423A9F2.74F4@dev.null>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * The Real Problem
     The Problem Within The Problem

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              The Real Problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Taxless society concerns
From: ? the Platypus {AKA David Formosa} 
Reply-To: platypus at acmeonline.net
To: snow 
CC: Warpy , cypherpunks at toad.com
x-url: http://www.st.nepean.uws.edu.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, snow wrote:
[...]
> > How is such care going to be payed for?

> Well, if their family/children do it, they will pay necessary costs.
> Otherwise I guess they will just have to save up for it.

What about orfins? I dout thay would be able to save up money, what
about thouse whos emplyers where not willing to pay them more then what is
needed to live to the next week?

   * ~~
     Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my
     header.
     Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. ex-net.scum and
     proud
     You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
     Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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The Real Guy didn't know why this particular post to the CypherPunks mailing
list had caught his eye. It was a pretty basic example of some of the
anarchist versus realist banter that was traded on the list from time to
time.

Perhaps what caught his eye was that this post was one of the dying remnants
of a fading civilization, and it was interspersed among a number of posts
aligning with a rapidly approaching future. This short, seemingly
inconsequential post to the CypherPunks list somehow appeared in his mind to
be representative of a problem that he had been working over in his mind
lately, trying to get a handle on it-to define it.
To define what he suspected was the real problem�

That's why he had changed his online persona from ? the Lunatic to "The Real
Guy." To remind himself of his new direction.
It was impossible, he knew, to define once and for all time, what the
ever-present, nefarious "problem" was. It was like the Tao, always flowing,
always changing. But he suspected that perhaps this, in itself, might
actually be the real problem.
Then again, perhaps not�since it didn't seem to be a problem for the
CypherPunks' Philosopher King; the one he called the Grouchy Old CypherPunk.

The King of Philosophical Grouchiness changed the signature-line in his
email as the problems facing society and the weathervane CypherPunks
changed.
Lately, he had been changing it with increasing frequency, and this made The
Real Guy very, very nervous. (He had watched a tornado forming one time,
from its very center, and its chief creative feature seemed to be, not the
particular direction the wind was changing to, but the increasing frequency
of the change.)

Perhaps The Real Guy was on the wrong track, here, giving so much thought to
what seemed to be just an everyday, normal post to a mailing list which had
no shortage of strange, lengthy rants about everything imaginable, no matter
how weird or far-out it may have been. He suspected, however, that the real
reason most people watched a television news program of the day, called '60
Minutes,' was because they were waiting to hear what the 'regular' guy had
to say. The Real Guy thought of him as a 'regular' guy, not because he was
on the show regularly, but because he was like real people; he was a 'real'
guy, himself.
The Regular Guy at the end of the program was always talking about real
problems that regular, everyday people experienced every single day of their
life.
He was kind of like a Grouchy Old CypherPunk who dealt with everyday stuff
instead of stuff that was going to change the world practically
overnight�maybe.

When The Real Guy read the post by snow and ? the Platypus, he couldn't help
but envision them still discussing who was responsible for the orphans far
into the future, right up to the point when the darkly clad, heavily armed
Storm Troopers broke down their doors and burst into their houses.
He could see them, in his mind's eye, and hear them, in his mind's ear, as
they politely asked the armed intruders who they thought would "take care of
the orfins" in an anarchist, taxless society. [Bang!] He could see them sink
slowly to their knees, in pain, holding their stomachs, as their blood
flowed rapidly out of their bodies, and they spoke the last words that would
inevitably prove to be the last words of a multitude of CypherPunks spread
across the face of the globe as the forces of fascist dictatorships hunted
them down and deleted their signature files upon this celestial orb: "Then I
guess that a blow-job is completely out of the question�.aaarrrrggghhh!"


The Real Guy shook himself out of his reverie and realized that Dimitri
Vulis' evil influence on him had perhaps been more than he had previously
thought.
Turning back to the task at hand, he thought about the many definitions of
the problem, (AKA the real problem) that he had come across, over the course
of his lifetime, and how each of them may have been appropriate for the time
and circumstances to which they were meant to apply.
Perhaps the eternal problem had to do with addressing the latest, greatest
version of the real problem, whatever that might be. There was no doubt that
the Dark Forces had their minions creating new, improved problems at an
increasingly fast rate as the end of the millennium approached. As well,
their human compatriots had mastered the art of devising systems which
ensured that by the time any specific 'problem' had traveled through the
government and societal systems of laws, regulations and mores, that any
'solution' reached would be long outdated and meaningless.

Subject: Re: politics aren't all or nothing (fwd)
From: Jim Choate 
To: cypherpunks at ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)

Tim May wrote:
> Democracy is the problem, not the solution.

A democracy which doesn't respect its limits of power is the problem. This
has always been the problem with all forms of governments and will continue
to be the problem with all forms of government (even anarchy).

People are people, people are strange; it isn't a question of technology [1]
or time.
[1] Governments are a form of technology.

The solution is people taking more direct and immediate action in the first
person. Always has been, always will be.
Irrespective of all the spin-doctor protestations to the contrary not
withstanding.

Governments are governed by the 3 laws of thermodynamics just like
everything else:
You can't get ahead
You can't break even
You can't quit the game

The failing with the founding fathers is that there were not enough
amendments in the Bill of Rights explicitly listing citizen rights and
federal duties and limits in the first place. THAT is the problem with
our government today: even the harshest critics of their day trusted a
federal government too much.
__________________________________________________

|_________________________________________________ |
| The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there___|
| be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.___ |
|_________________ -Alan Greenspan-__________________ |
| ______The Armadillo Group__________________________|
| ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA_____________________________|
| /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ ______________________|
| .', |||| `/( e\__________________________________________|
| -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate___________________ |
| ravage at ssz.com____________________________________|
| 512-451-7087______________________________________|
|__________________________________________________|

The Real Guy thought about Choate's statement: "The solution is people
taking more direct and immediate action in the first person."
He had no doubt that Choate's definition of the real problem ("with our
government today") was no more right nor wrong than many of the other
definitions proffered on the CypherPunks list, as well as throughout
history, but he sensed that perhaps Choate's stated 'solution' came
startlingly close to what would ultimately prove to be the real solution to
the troubles that were rapidly swamping the ship of freedom in this era of
human and societal evolution.

Which led to 'the problem within the problem.'

And The Real Guy had no idea what that was�

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The Problem Within The Problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"To him who does what within him lies, God will not deny his grace."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas

Bubba Rom Dos brought the quote to the screen, pleased with himself for
having provided the solution to The Real Guy's question.

"That is the 'problem within the problem?'" Alexis asked the grizzled sage,
looking puzzled.

"No, no. Of course not, my dear.
"That," he said, pointing to the quote, "is the 'solution within the
solution.'"

The Cowboy laughed loudly at this statement, turning to Bubba and
suggesting, "You've been watching the Steve Allen TV shows again, haven't
you, Bubba?"
He turned to the others, to explain his veiled reference. "Steve Allen was a
kind of early TV Taoist who had a way of turning things on their ear, as the
saying was back then. While some TV shows would give the answers to
questions sent in by their viewers, he would have his viewers send him their
answers, to which he would then provide the appropriate question."

"Thirty-six, twenty-four, thirty six." Bubba called out his answer.

"What were the ages of the Three Musketeers?" the Cowboy responded with the
appropriate question.

Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan gave each other desperate looks, knowing that
they were about to be subjected to the mad ramblings of a drunken tag-team
of self-proclaimed world saviors, as they attempted to draw the others into
yet another of their "insane, inane, falling mainly in the plain" bumbling
and stumbling attacks on intellect, rationality and proper decorum.

"OK, I'll bite." Jonathan was the first to speak. "But, since we already
know that your solution is insane, why don't you give us the proof of its
applicability to the 'problem within the problem' and let us�" he motioned
to himself and the ladies, "divine the real problem, and the 'problem within
the problem?'"

"Fair enough!" said the Cowboy, motioning for Bubba to begin.

Bubba threw up a quote on the GraphiScreen from Julian Jaynes' "The
Evolution of Consciousness in the Breakdown of Bicameral Mind."
"Why is it that in our daily lives we cannot get up above ourselves to
authorize ourselves into being what we really wish to be?
"So that behavior flows from decision�so that whatever in us it is that
refers to a 'will' stands master and captain over action?"

The Cowboy grinned and turned to the three 'contestants' in this
lighthearted parody of a variety of bad game shows of the era they were
dealing with.
"This is the question which indicates the results of the problem and the
solution to the problem, but what is the problem?"
He left the challenge of answering his question to the three participants,
pushing his bottle of Jim Beam into the center of the table to indicate the
reward for a proper reply.

Without hesitating, Alexis scrolled through the work on the screen, knowing
that, in all likelihood, Jaynes had addressed the problem in an adjoining
passage. She reached for the bottle and poured herself, Priscilla and
Jonathan a shot, as she highlighted:
"We are learned in self-doubt, scholars of our very failures, geniuses at
excuse and tomorrowing our resolves. We become practiced in powerless
resolution until hope gets undone and dies in the unattempted.
"And then to rise above this noise of knowledge and really change ourselves,
we need an authorization that 'we' do not have."

Bubba and the Cowboy had grinned from ear to ear when Priscilla had reached
forward with the tip of her finger, to highlight the last of the sentence.
"Precisely!" they agreed, in unison.

"The problem," Jonathan posited, "was that, leading up to the end of the
millennium, the advances in technology and education were designed by those
behind the scenes to give the appearance of empowerment to the individuals
within the authority of the group." Jonathan wasn't quite sure just what he
was trying to get at, so he turned to the women for help.

"Democracy, mass-production, elections, free schooling, public works�"
Priscilla was making a 'set' of something�she wasn't sure of what, however.

Alexis thought for a moment, and jumped in, saying, "At the same time, the
study of human psychology was entering an era where the existence and power
of the subconscious was being recognized and exploited.
"Hypnosis, brain-washing, advertising, spin doctoring�"

"Group mind!" all of those gathered around the table spoke as if in a single
voice.

"Little boxes on the hillside, and they're all made out of ticky-tacky. And
they all look like boxes, little boxes just the same." Priscilla sang a
lilting tune attributed to a singer named Joni Mitchell of that general era.

"The tyranny of the masses!" Jonathan shouted out, excited at remembering
this phrase from long childhood nights spent perusing posts to the original
CypherPunks mailing list.
"The printing press, factories, fashions, all moving society toward a world
in which the yoke of serfdom was apparently being thrown off the necks of
the peasants, as kings and rulers fell by the wayside in the name of
democracy and freedom.
"But the Iron Hand of the monarchy, the priest and the dictator was replaced
by the Steel Jaws of social mores and public opinion."

Alexis nodded, adding, "They overthrew a higher authority only to fall prey
to becoming a cog in the creation and machinations of a group authority."
She struggled to understand what it was she was trying to put her finger on,
saying, "They merely replaced one authority with another which they
perceived to be a lighter burden because it more closely fit their wants and
needs at the time."

"The problem," Jonathan interrupted, excitedly, "was that, rather than
seizing the mantle of authority over themselves and accepting responsibility
for the life and their actions, they merely moved it from the hands of a
small few, into the hands of the group."

"And the 'problem within the problem,'" Alexis continued, "was that right
and wrong, good and evil, knowledge and wisdom, was still not by virtue of
their own authority, any more than it was when they were ruled by kings and
priests."

Bubba and the Cowboy nodded at each other, agreeing that their challenge had
been met in a remarkably astute manner.
"So the problem was that they moved from monarchy and plutocracy to
democracy and�" the Cowboy left the question hanging in the air.

Jonathan, for the first time in his life, felt like he finally understood
why the CypherPunks stood at a nadir point in history during the early years
of the creation and propagation of the CypherPunks mailing list. He slowly
intoned,
"�and failed to move onward�to anarchy."

Copyright "TruthMonger 
"And I can cook, too�"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From tm at dev.null  Sat Sep 20 05:37:10 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 20:37:10 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 17 / TEXT
Message-ID: <3423BC2E.4B5@dev.null>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * The Real Solution
     The Solution Within The Solution

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              The Real Solution
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Real Guy had another dream that morning. A dream which made sense of a
lot of things which had seemed to be somewhat out of alignment with the
perceptive parameters within which he usually viewed them.

He had seen a large, powerful, feathered creature which ruled a huge nest
with millions of eggs in it. The great creature worked its will with the
eggs, moving them about, throwing some of them out of the nest, consuming
others.
Suddenly, the eggs began hatching, one by one, more and more rapidly, with a
multitude of young fledglings scrambling about, trying to keep from getting
crushed, eaten, or thrown out of the nest by the great feathered creature. A
few of them pecked hopelessly at the great creature, in vain, but as the
numbers of fledgling miscreants increased, the great creature began to
wobble, at which time a great mass of the younger and weaker creatures rose
up to overwhelm the great creature, sending it spinning out of the nest, and
down into the bowels of the earth.
Then the multitude of fledglings came together to form a great feathered
creature, similar to the first, with each of them becoming a single feather
of the new great creature. The creature of many feathers flapped its wings
and flew around the huge nest, but never crossing over the outer boundaries
of the nest.
There remained but a single egg in the nest. The creature of feathers seemed
afraid of the egg and would poke and claw at it, ferociously. Each time it
did so, however, one of its feathers would turn into an egg and fall into
the nest.
At first, the creature of feathers would not seem to lose any feathers as
the number of its feathers turning into eggs increased, but eventually there
were signs that its plumage was deteriorating as it continued its attacks on
the eggs, and it began having trouble flying around the nest.
The creature began pecking at its own feathers, in a vain attempt to keep
them from turning into eggs. The feathers now began turning into eggs en
masse, as the great creature began clawing at the eggs and pecking at its
feathers, until finally, it fell out of the nest and plunged into the bowels
of the earth, screaming, "But who will take care of the orfins?"

The Real Guy shook himself fully awake, now seeing visions of the past and
the present instead of mere dreams.
He saw a dictator falling from power on a small island, asking the
impoverished children who were shooting at him, "But who will take care of
the orfins?"
He saw a General being driven from the compound that held the food donated
to the starving people of his nation, the food that he had confiscated and
was selling to neighboring counties, for his own profit. The General fled
into the barren lands on the outskirts of the compound, shouting over his
shoulder, "But who will take care of the orfins?"

The Real Guy looked out of his window and saw a multitude of politicians and
sheeple attacking passers-by at random, screaming a wide variety of slogans
and sound-bytes about 'protecting/saving/taking-care-of' the 'orfins' and
the 'children.'
They were trampling the children of the future underfoot as they rushed to
assault the motley crew of alleged pornographers, pedophiles, drug dealers
and terrorists. The screams of the unborn were mixed with the screams of the
children of the present when they failed to get out of the way of the
attackers, and were knocked down in the rush to protect them.
As each of the evil targets perished under the assault of the 'protectors'
of the 'orfins' and 'children,' two of the children turned into
pornographers, or pedophiles, or drug dealers, or terrorists.

"How many of the citizens need to be eliminated or imprisoned in order to
protect the children?"
The plaintive voice seemed to emerge from within The Real Guy, himself, as
did the answer, as he took on the dark visage of Gomez himself, and began to
scream,
"All of them! Aallll of thheeemmm!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos shook himself awake, trembling.
"A dream within a dream." he said, to no one in particular.

Jonathan booted down the Trei Transponder, as each of those gathered looked
Bubba over carefully, trying to divine whether their further use of the
Transponder, after their recent adjustments, was really a wise idea.

The remnants of the Magic Circle of the future gathered around the
GraphiScreen on the antique oak table, waiting to see what The Real Guy
would do with the InformEnergy they had transferred to The Real Guy's
digital implant during the course of the wee hours of the morning.

They were overjoyed as they saw him type on the screen of his laptop, over a
century earlier in the flow of time:
The Problem: Group mind�the tyranny of the masses.
The Solution: Anarchy!

There was a long pause, then The Real Guy continued:
The problem within the problem: How to authorize myself to rise above my
social self and stand master and captain over my decisions and my actions.
The solution within the solution: "To him who does what within him lies�"

The tattered remnants of the Circle of Eunuchs sat silently, waiting for The
Real Guy to continue. One by one, they realized, in their own way, that the
question was one that each person would ultimately need to finish for
themselves, according to the dictates of their own creed and conscience.

Bubba stood and raised his shotglass, in preparation for a toast, and the
others did likewise, waiting for him to speak.

"Gurdjieff often claimed that the great evil that humankind must fight
against was the descent into unconscious automatism. He maintained that man
could not consciously do evil�that he or she could only do so by the process
of forgetting the divine spark of humanity that lay within, becoming 'man
the machine'; a small cog in an automatism which carried a voice of
authority that was beyond his own conscious will to overcome, and rule by
virtue of accepting the authority and responsibility for his own life, and
actions."

"To humans�" Bubba threw back his shot of 'Bubba's Special Reserve' with a
flourish. "�ruling the machine."

"And not vice-versa." the Cowboy added, as an afterthought, thinking about
the battle over control of the InterNet that was shaping up, a century in
their past.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      The Solution Within The Solution
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Real Guy awoke from his nap in the early afternoon. He had had another
dream, but this time he recognized it as being one wholly his own, as a
result of poring over a mountain of posts to the CypherPunks mailing list
that morning.

It was a short dream. Short and to the point:
"Who will take care of the orfins?" ? the Platypus asked, over and over
again.
"I'll take care of the ones in DC!" shouted Tim May, pressing a large, red
button, followed by a blinding flash and a deafening roar.

"To him who does what within him lies�" The Real Guy laughed to himself as
he spoke these words. At least he hadn't lost his sick, twisted sense of
humor.

He thought about Tim May's comment on the rather loud and poignant statement
made by 'his other brother, Tim' (McVeigh).
"Broken eggs, and all that�"

If you want to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

"When all you have is a bomb, everything looks like an egg."

The Regular Guy thought about McVeigh-his motivations and intentions.
In the end, it was nobody's business but McVeigh's. It was between him and
his conscience, him and his God, or gods�or him and the great Void. Who was
to say, for another?

Nevertheless, the great uproar that followed his bombing of the Federal
building in Oklahoma City was the response of the huddled masses who had
felt the sting of-and feared-anarchy.

McVeigh had killed for them, as a soldier in their army. That wasn't scary.
He had been part of a larger force of men and women who were killing for
them all around the world. That wasn't scary.
Now, he was killing for himself, on his own authority�and that terrified
them.

The government laid his actions at the feet of a recognizable enemy, wanting
no more than the average citizen to face the truth of what had transpired on
that fateful day when a hundred and sixty-nine (+ one leg) of their group
had perished at the hands of a single member of their society.
It was the paramilitary, the citizens' militia, bad people who thought that
they had the right to defend themselves from the Great Evil, rather than
counting on the benevolent state to do so. After spending the better part of
a decade of learning how to kill in their government's armed forces, McVeigh
had attended one meeting of the paramilitary, and now, his actions belonged
solely to them.
The press showed us who they were, where they lived, the threat they
presented. And most of all, they assured us that we could identify them and
eliminate them as a threat if it became necessary to do so. They were an
identifiable group that could be murdered by those who were killing for us,
if they rose up against us.

The truth was too scary to face.
The truth was that he was a single man, acting on the dictates of his own
conscience, which deemed that those who lived by the sword, should die by
the sword. Regardless of whether they hired others to do their killing for
them. Regardless of whether they acted on the authority of the 'group.'
Regardless of whether they only killed 'bad guys,' or by 'accident' or
'justifiably.' Regardless of whether they only put them in the oven, only
turned on the gas, or merely signed the papers resulting in them being taken
from their homes and relocated in a death camp.

"When Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time." The Real Guy smiled wryly.
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
The Nazis confiscated guns from the citizens to protect them. So did the
American Congress. The Nazis suspended the rights of the citizens in order
to protect them from Communists and Jews and foreign agents. The American
Congress suspended the rights of the citizens in order to protect them from
Communists, and Arabs, and foreign terrorists. As well as from the drug
dealers they, themselves, had created in reality, and the pornography they
had created in their own minds.

Tim McVeigh had done what within him lay�

The message he brought was one which was no stranger to the CypherPunks:
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
- Alan 'Pogo' Olsen

"Beware of Big Brother inside."
-Tim C. May

Subject: Re: News: Ross Anderson in article on US export vs Euro comsec
From: "William H. Geiger III" 
To: Ernest Hua 
CC: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM, hua at chromatic.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In <199709181652.JAA26435 at ohio.chromatic.com>, on 09/18/97
at 09:52 AM, Ernest Hua  said:
> U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says
> (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
> By Douglas Hayward, TechWire

> CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S. government's strategy of monitoring the
> computer networks of hostile governments is damaging the communications
> infrastructure of its allies, a leading encryption expert said.

Allies?? What Allies?!? It only has criminal coconspirators of other
foreign governments.

Hang 'em all, hang 'em high!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0
Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
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iQCVAwUBNCFSno9Co1n+aLhhAQHNygQAxtjROzupWK7zMS04L7I8yex+Drpc6OqV
xwxrp4G0m4yUkP42LuIRu3VsOyWDhn1duGqkuLjLj5Z12ZJ8QmI01zFWdhbmUBjd
yr9/KffiYHVLEcwo3r9nV2ktKtE+mmjISwYpi0FRUqJQX3ZlKqdN0mqWUbFIYbQs
ucJAzlJb/Ng=
=knPF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

"To him who does what within him lies�"

The enemy was not the 'paramilitary' Michigan Militia. The enemy was not the
'cult' of the Branch Davidians.

The enemy was:
William H. McVeigh III, CypherPunk Cult of One
Alan McVeigh, CypherPunk Terrorist of One
Timothy C. McVeigh, CypherPunk Paramilitary of One
? the Platypus, CypherPunk Army of Won
Anonymous, CypherPunks Chief Spokesperson of One
Nobody, CypherPunks Cult of None

The Solution: Anarchy!

The Solution Within the Solution: The individual.

"I'm no leader. I do what I have to do�sometimes, people come with me."
-character in "Demolition Man"

"Close ranks�every man for himself!"
-the Unknown CypherPunk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From tm at dev.null  Sat Sep 20 05:39:19 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 20:39:19 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 17 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3423BBFB.35DA@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 13174 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 20 06:07:15 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 21:07:15 +0800
Subject: Clinton's Pager Hacked (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709201310.IAA10219@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: "Attila T. Hun" 
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 04:57:57 +0000
> Subject: Re: Clinton's Pager Hacked

>     THIS is precisely why the government fears encrytion! They simply do 
>     not understand it; they do NOT want to understand it, and like all 
>     other problems of government, they want to make it illegal and sweep 
>     it under the carpet which will make it go away!  yeah, right....

Attilla,

This without a doubt is the most brain-dead thing I have ever read from you.
Of course governments understand encryption, they only been using it what -
5,000 years or so...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 20 07:20:47 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 22:20:47 +0800
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
Message-ID: <199709201425.JAA10308@einstein.ssz.com>



Just a thought...






From sunder at brainlink.com  Sat Sep 20 10:02:12 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:02:12 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity
In-Reply-To: <199709181916.MAA17831@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: 



> they say that every man has his price.
> integrity has no price!! imagine, would you turn down any
> amount of money to work on the corrupt state mechanisms?
> this is exactly what is required to bring them down. as
> long as they can continue to bribe the populace with its
> own money, they will continue.

I once worked for the city version of the evil corrupt state mechanism
here in NYC.  It's not as bad as people think it is, it's actually FAR
WORSE.

Here's my experiences:

The sysadmin there had quit unexpectedly and took a severance package.
Because the dude took severance, this closed the "line" for the job, which
means there was no longer a sysadmin postition available.  So they were
forced to hire me as a "special consultant" for supposedly two weeks -
took them two months to recreate the position.

When they were going to create an ID (no big deal, just a kodak like
camera with a laminator and some pre-printed text - for which they use
typewriters, yes typewriters to create) I had to wait a few days to get
one.  To quote the Human Resources weasel as to a reason "Because the temp
who makes them won't be here until Wednesday" (this was a full time, full
fledged gooberment employee.  The temp was expectedly a high school kid.)

After about another two months, I had to go through a "background check."
I had to pay for said background check.  All this being mandatory, failure
to do so results in instant firing and never being able to work there
again, etc.  I had to pay for this with a POSTAL money order. No check, no
bank money order - because those expire in 90 days and these buttfucked
people take longer than that to cash them in.  So not only do you get to
bend over for the city to peek into your ass, you have to pay for it too,
in a weird way.

All the forms are paper, xeroxed and re-xeroxed and re-xeroxed from
ancient type written forms, and they're mostly illegible.  One of the
forms was for politicians that clearly states that working for the city
means you're a public figgure and that you can expect NO PRIVACY and that
they may snoop on you in any way shape or form including health and credit
records, etc.

The beurocracy was legendary.  They were running on 286's with DOS and
Windoze 3.1 with 2 megs of ram and 20 to 80Mb hard drives...  This was in
the time of Windows 95 and pentium machines...  Viruses everywhere.

The network was the shittiest thing I ever saw running all 300 machines of
that department on 10b2! Yes! Coax, with Coax hubs.  50% of the time spent
was tracking down a loose connection that some ditz seccy had kicked out
(no offense to secretaries, but these folks were as smart as bricks.)

Everything is politics, politics, politics.  These folx care about nothing
else.  And corruption was prevalent.  One of the common things was for
various departments ordering say, 386's or 486's and having those rerouted
to the higher ups' and the dept ordering the 486's would get 286.  Memory,
CDROMS, sound cards, and other standard stuff ordered there was re-routed
elsewhere though ordered with the machine, the user would get a stripped
machine for which the city paid for a full one. And yes software piracy
was prevalent, even for server software.

Basically the life forms there rate only 1/2 an evolution scale point
higher than the life forms that live on welfare and social security
checks.  The only difference is that they work, they pay is about the
same.

This gentlemen is what our government is like.  It was a wrteching
experience to find this out personally, but it was worth it to see the
true nature of the beast that governs us though I puke at the thought of
what I went through there...

(By the way, did you know there is such a thing as a sewer tax that
businesses pay for, and that bakeries can get a discount on, because
baking makes most of the water they use evaporate and not go down the
sewer?  Such was the trivia there...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Sep 20 10:03:07 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:03:07 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 15 / The GeigerBurg Text
In-Reply-To: <3423A9F2.74F4@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709201414.PAA01860@server.test.net>




Bianca  writes:
>
> Subject: Re: InfoWar 15 / The GeigerBurg Text"

The "Geigerburg text" referring to William H. Geiger XIV's request
that InfoWar submissions be in text rather than HTML.

Mime, HTML, Acrobat, microsoft word, uuencode, PGP armored etc. is not
generally suitable for mailing lists.

I wonder how many people actually are using something which will
display HTML correctly.

Oh yeah, and the cypherpunks list is _not_ at "toad.com".

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0




Crowds, a system for increasing your anonymity while you browse the
web, now runs on RedHat Linux 4.2, in addition to SunOS, Solaris, and
Irix.  The code can be requested from our web site:

http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds

We would like our next target OS to be freeBSD, but unfortunately we
don't have a machine running it.  If anyone running a recent version
of freeBSD on a machine with a direct internet connection (not behind
a firewall, not over a modem) would be willing to donate a few minutes
to helping us port it there, we would be grateful.  Typically the port
doesn't take long ... basically we just need to figure out what args 
to pass to some fcntl calls.

Mike Reiter
Avi Rubin






From HotBabe69 at ameritech.net  Sun Sep 21 01:13:13 1997
From: HotBabe69 at ameritech.net (HotBabe69 at ameritech.net)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: For Adults Only!
Message-ID: <18725478612534@mail2.sexystuff4u.com>


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From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 20 10:46:39 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:46:39 +0800
Subject: Crypto-law etc
In-Reply-To: <199709182314.SAA23318@email.plnet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970920102956.00733fa0@popd.netcruiser>

At 06:17 PM 9/18/97 -0500, John Kelsey wrote:
>Sure.  We get the same right to bear it as we have to own rocket
>launchers, machine guns, or flame throwers--none.  The second 
>amendment hasn't protected our right to possess those things, 
>which pretty clearly fall into the realm of its direct intentions--why
>would it protect our right to use crypto, which isn't even that clear
>cut?  

Actually, in many jurisdictions, flame-throwers are NOT illegal. Legally
defining the difference between a "flamethrower", an "acetylene torch", a
"cigarette lighter" a "portable gas grill", and various other common
fire-producing items is even stickier than legally defining an "assault
weapon" or a "Saturday night special". Besides, flamethrowers are not yet
the weapon of choice for drug dealers, terrorists, child pornographers, and
muggers, so most otherwise anti-2nd amendment legislators haven't thought
to make them illegal. (Ever hear of a drive-by flamethrowing?)
Besides, you can make your own flamethrower out of a push-button butane
lighter (the kind that makes a spark to light the butane) and one of those
pump-up pressure sprayers available at Home Depot or Sears, as long as it
has a metal wand/nozzle assembly. All you need to do is attach the lighter
to the wand in a manner that prevents liquid from the nozzle from dripping
on your hand, drill the nozzle out so it produces a stream instead of a
mist, and fill the sprayer up with gasoline. Pump it up, and you have an
untraceable (if you buy the materials with cash) short-range riot
suppression tool for less than $30, including the gasoline to fill it.

If you want to get really nasty, mix some styrofoam in with the gasoline so
it starts becoming sticky. (Can you say napalm?) Of course, making the
gasoline too viscous will reduce its ability to be sprayed, so experiment
before using in a critical situation to determine the optimum balance
between desired burn characteristics and sprayability.

DISCLAIMER:
The above information is presented for educational purposes only. It is not
intended as legal advice, consult the local authorities before constructing
your flamethrower. IANAL. Misuse of the preceding information can result in
death or serious injury. "Fire is cool, Beavis." "Yeah, uh, cool, huhuhuhuh."


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From hedges at sirius.infonex.com  Sat Sep 20 10:50:49 1997
From: hedges at sirius.infonex.com (Mark Hedges)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:50:49 +0800
Subject: directed speech free? request for opinions.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




I don't have the law code available. I was told by an attorney that the
particular passage says this is the case. I would like to challenge this
passage. I will get back with the particular code section and text.

Mark Hedges


On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

>At 2:16 AM -0800 9/19/97, Mark Hedges wrote:
>>I have seen California law code which seems to indicate that speech
>>directed at an individual is not covered under the first amendment.
>>
>>If you have any thoughts on the matter, please send opinions (not legal
>>advice, of course, if you are a lawyer). Also, if you know of any speech
>>rights scholars or lawyers willing to answer a few related questions for
>>free, I would appreciate the pointer.
>
>I'm confused.  What in California law makes you think that the First
>Amendment doesn't apply unless you speak to more than one person?  Assuming
>that's what you mean by "speech directed at an individual."
>
>Lee
>
>
>






From spector at zeitgeist.com  Sat Sep 20 11:01:43 1997
From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:01:43 +0800
Subject: Politcal Action Toolkit now available
Message-ID: <199709201753.NAA20166@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>




...not having much in the way of sleep since reading Louis Freeh's
testimony and his plans to assault the US Constitution I decided to do
something about it, and try to develop something that would help
others get involved too...

I would like to announce the availability of a Personal Political
Action Kit (PersPAK).  It contains full databases of members of the
House and the Senate and may be used for mail merging, faxing (senate
only at the moment, house members hopefully this week with the next
release), email campaigns, as well as plain old phone calls.  The data
were culled from the House and Senate directories that are on the Web,
and are current as of September 3, 1997.

The datasets are provided in two formats, tab-delimited and as an
Excel spreadsheet.  Two sample letters are included that show how to
use the mail-merge features of Office95/97, along with a README file
that will step users through the basics of using this kit and offers
some hints on what to say -- and sometimes more importantly NOT to say
-- in a letter to their congress-folk.

The kit can be accessed at:  http://www.zeitgeist.com/crypto

I plan on updating this toolkit with more features soon with some more
tools, and the ability to send mail/faxes to entire committees (as
opposed to picking congress persons/senators by individually), some Java
Applets to auto-generate letters, etc.

I'm making it available under the GNU Public License, so feel free to use this 
kit as a base for other tools.

Constructive criticism/ideas may be sent to perspak at zeitgeist.com

regards,
  _DHMS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector at zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells






From enoch at zipcon.net  Sat Sep 20 11:45:19 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:45:19 +0800
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
In-Reply-To: <199709201425.JAA10308@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970920183104.3851.qmail@zipcon.net>



> Just a thought...

Why go in search of the complicated when stupidity is a perfectly
acceptable explanation?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From eric at clever.net  Sat Sep 20 12:04:35 1997
From: eric at clever.net (Cyberdog)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:04:35 +0800
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
In-Reply-To: <199709201425.JAA10308@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



>Just a thought...

I vote for Dilbertwar, the stealth wing falling off had pointy hair
management written all over it.








From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Sat Sep 20 12:19:10 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:19:10 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles 
is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal" 
information about them.

But what constitutes personally identifiable information, anyway? 
Where do "real" privacy concerns begin? Below is a story I wrote  
about Imgis Inc. - a little-noticed company whose cookies are among 
the most common on the Net. If you don't them now, look in your 
cookie file. Chances are you'll find several marked "imgis.com."

Imgis thought it knew what the privacy concerns were with its 
technology. Others thought otherwise. Within two days of hearing 
about impending opposition, the company apparently changed its views.

Note that the technology described is not yet in use.

from http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwo/0919/inwo0006.html

Ad tracking technology sparks new privacy war
By Will Rodger
September 19, 1997
11:42 AM PDT
 Inter at ctive Week Online

An effort supported by two of the world's largest advertising brokers 
to tailor advertising to individual Internet users may pose the 
greatest threat yet to the protection of privacy in cyberspace, 
activists said.

Under a system due for rollout in the first half of 1998, the Web 
advertising service Imgis Inc. will begin comparing detailed 
demographic information about Internet users to its stock of Web-
ready ads, sending Net users only those ads Imgis determines are best 
matched to their interests. The company, based in Los Angeles, will 
use a system of "match codes" to identify individual users.

Match codes are unique identifiers used to pick information about 
consumers out of databases, much as banks use Social Security numbers 
to identify customers.

Under the plan, when Internet users visit Web sites carrying Imgis 
ads, participating Internet service operators would send Imgis a 
match code corresponding to a demographic database of 140 million 
consumers maintained by database marketer Metromail Corp.

Imgis would then compare users' names, addresses, estimated incomes 
and automobile ownership against an inventory of advertisements. 
Thus, a white, single 25-year-old man living in Dubuque, Iowa, could 
see an ad that differs from that seen by a 65-year-old American 
Indian woman living in Manhattan.

Yet, at the same time, the system has the ability to track the 
movements of any Internet user across participating sites, 
potentially revealing a dizzying array of confidential information, 
including users' reading habits, health concerns, political 
inclinations and religious affiliations. Imgis executives insist they 
won't do so, but the danger remains, critics said.

Shelley Pasnik, an analyst with the Washington, D.C.-based Center for 
Media Education, slammed the proposal.

"This is huge. This is the most detailed proposal I've seen and 
probably the most significant threat to privacy I've heard of," she 
said.

"This is a really big deal; this is a real step back," added Tara 
Lemmey, chief executive officer of Narrowline Inc., a San Francisco-
based Internet advertising firm and a member of the TRUSTe privacy 
consortium. "This is a case where it's really important to step back 
and say we've really crossed the line."

Imgis, which specializes in Internet advertising, will place ads sold 
by Petry Media Corp. and Katz Media Group Inc.

Exposure of the plan follows four days of hearings on cyberspace 
privacy at the U.S. Federal Trade Commission last June. Though direct 
marketers were often on the defensive over their use of surreptitious 
techniques in gathering consumer information in cyberspace, the FTC 
tentatively concluded that the industry should police itself before 
the government takes action to protect privacy on the Internet.

But the Imgis case "accentuates all the concerns we've been talking 
about," said David Medine, associate director of credit practices at 
the FTC and moderator of most of the sessions. "Up until today, I 
think that users naturally assumed that users were anonymous through 
their Internet service providers when they surfed the Web. I don't 
think that you can say that anymore. If that has changed, it 
represents a dramatic shift in the relationship between the user and 
the Internet."

Medine said the FTC would expect Imgis to disclose all aspects of its 
data gathering through participating Web sites and ISPs if it begins 
using match codes to tailor ad delivery.

In an interview Tuesday, Imgis Chief Executive Officer Chuck Berger 
told Inter at ctive Week that his company had signed two Internet 
service providers, GTE Corp. and Netcom On-Line Communication 
Services Inc., to carry the service sometime in the first half of 
1998.

At the time, Berger said he believed there were no privacy concerns 
with "anonymous match codes," since Imgis had decided not to record 
which sites users visit.

"Once we pull your ad out of our database, we're done," Berger said. 
"We're not following you around the Web."

Imgis abruptly altered its story Thursday after Inter at ctive Week 
found that privacy advocates were up in arms over the technology. 
Marisa Verson, a principal with San Francisco public relations firm 
Interactive Communications Inc., which represents Imgis, said Imgis 
never had agreements with GTE or Netcom.

"GTE is nothing," she said. "If Chuck communicated that, I don't know 
how he even thinks that. This thing isn't even in the speculative 
stage until the privacy thing is down."

GTE spokesman Bill Kula confirmed Thursday morning that "we do use 
Imgis - or plan to - related to using actual public billing files." 
But "there's not a contract between the two companies today."

Netcom officials said they spoke with Imgis more than a year ago 
about the match code proposal but had discarded the idea over privacy 
concerns.

"I have absolutely zero plans to be involved with this," said Netcom 
advertising director Terry Pittman. "Whatever we do needs to be in 
synch with some rules of the road so that people know what we do with 
their information."

Imgis officials, stung by criticism of their plan, said they are 
moving swiftly. Though Berger earlier described Netizens who worry 
about their privacy online as a "vocal minority," Imgis marketing 
director David Kopp said the company is moving to develop some way of 
disclosing how it gathers information online and what it does with 
it.

"We'll come up with a policy that makes sense," Kopp said. "These 
issues are very big issues. The main reason we haven't pursued the 
product is we're not entirely confident we have a set of standards 
that would work. Without informed consent you can't do this sort of 
thing."

Kopp said the company would soon contact TRUSTe for guidance.

TRUSTe Chairman Lori Fena said she hoped to hear from Kopp soon.

"We mandate full disclosure," she said. "We expect full disclosure at 
all the Web sites, so this would no longer be a back-door deal."

The FTC's Medine agreed.

"It's going to take enough firms getting beat up in the press to make 
people realize they have to think about this first - before they 
develop the technology," he said.

Imgis can be reached at www.imgis.com

The FTC can be reached at www.ftc.gov



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCQghdZgKT/Hvj9iEQLu5ACfSVkRIbX8iYE7EgKnwV2FIZK82fUAoIBl
2TyMisA624IB1nWUwhI3qx54
=08lI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 20 12:35:33 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 03:35:33 +0800
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709201939.OAA11020@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:31:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos 

> Why go in search of the complicated when stupidity is a perfectly
> acceptable explanation?

Well it really wasn't meant to be taken quite that literaly. It just seemed
to me that a question of some import to this list might be how one tells
such a statistical anomaly (if you'll allow me) from an actual concerted
attack. What would the tale-tell's be for such a distinction? While
full-blown war would not be hard to differentiate consider such an attack
from a small group with an immediate and distinct goal as well as potential
long-range goals. What sorts of processes and types of information would be
of interest to a person who was tasked with evaluating such an occurance?

Things like:

 -    relationships between the history of the various participants, both
      mechanical and human

 -    geographic relationships, weather comparisons, environmental
      conditions, etc.


Consider your responce at first reading. That is a barrier that has to
be jumped for such activities to be used effectively, wouldn't you think?
This would indicate that an effective long-term strategy for a sect attack
via the Internet would be advertising. Which would rule-out most real
clandestine attacks as being from a small political or religous group. There
is also the issue of talent recruitement and budget. So, with these sorts of
issues in mind, what kinds of financial transactions might be of interest?
And finaly, in such an environment can the elimination of non-GAK crypto
really be effective? Is crypto really even an issue?

Now consider, if you will, the requirements if we assume that we are under a
concerted Pearl-Harbor attack from a rival 1st World power. How would that
effect the issues discussed above?


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From BB at imgis.com  Sat Sep 20 13:20:23 1997
From: BB at imgis.com (Imgis Inc.)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:20:23 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <34242D52.382D@imgis.com>



Will Rodger blathered:

> Ad tracking technology sparks new privacy war
> By Will Rodger
> September 19, 1997
> 11:42 AM PDT
>  Inter at ctive Week Online
> 
> An effort supported by two of the world's largest advertising brokers
> to tailor advertising to individual Internet users may pose the
> greatest threat yet to the protection of privacy in cyberspace,
> activists said.
...
> Yet, at the same time, the system has the ability to track the
> movements of any Internet user across participating sites,
> potentially revealing a dizzying array of confidential information,
> including users' reading habits, health concerns, political
> inclinations and religious affiliations. Imgis executives insist they
> won't do so, but the danger remains, critics said.

Imgis Inc. would like to point out that these libelous accusations
are being made by a sick, twisted individual who has visited over
3,000 pornography sites in the last six months. (68 of them on
Mother's Day!)
Will Rodgers is well known to Imgis Inc. to be a perverted leftist
loser who spends the time he is not busy slandering honest, decent
people such as ourselves, cruising the InterNet in search of 
underage teenage sluts who like long walks in the park, holding
hands under the full moon, AND CROWBARS SHOVED UP THEIR ASS DURING
STRANGE SEXUAL ACTIVITIES WITH FARMYARD BEASTS!
He has AIDS, cancer, and will soon have his health insurance canceled
by one of our biggest clients. He worships the *wrong* God and votes
for the *wrong* political candidates.

Our future projections, based on his past activities, indicate that
he will soon become a drug dealing pornographer and a terrorist
pedophile.
So ask yourself, "Is this the kind of person I want to have shaping
my views about Imgis Inc.'s public service software?"
If your answer is "Yes.", then perhaps we should reveal what we know
about YOU!

Sincerely,
A. Hoir
Janitor,
Imgis Inc.






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep 20 13:41:38 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:41:38 +0800
Subject: Pearl Harbor Aggression (Was: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar? (fwd)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970920202112.00897b48@pop.pipeline.com>



Jim Choate wrote:

>Now consider, if you will, the requirements if we assume that we are under a
>concerted Pearl-Harbor attack from a rival 1st World power. How would that
>effect the issues discussed above?

For answer to this consider:

There a number of countries who believe they are under just that
kind of Pearl harbor attack from the US through high-tech 
information warfare, electronic surveillance and related crypto 
control demands, especially the requirement for GAK in US 
and foreign-made products.

US leaders insistence that the US be 1st before all others in 
information technology, rightfully scares the shit out of our allies who
are distrusting the US more and more, perhaps even giving them
ideas about getting together with US enemies to beat back the 
Microsoft of nations. A counter-strike Pearl Harbor may be in the 
offing because of US belligerence and threat of Pearl Harboring 
others. (Recall the frequent invocation of this term by US reps, 
perhaps a clue to pre-emptive aggression in the works.)

The harping of US leaders on unidentified threats is making non-US
folks rather nervous, not being sure that the US may not turn on
its allies for the slightest of missteps or demurs, and cut off the
bountiful flow of global intel -- as the TLAs are now threatening 
Congressional committees. Crypto Czar Arons world consultations
were apparently thinly veiled threats to compel GAK compliance.

For an example, see a recent exchange on theukcrypto mail list 
between Ross Anderson and two DTI reps about the impact of
US GAK policy:

   http://jya.com/dti-words.htm







From adam at homeport.org  Sat Sep 20 14:10:20 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 05:10:20 +0800
Subject: Pearl Harbor Aggression (Was: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days =  InfoWar? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970920202112.00897b48@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199709202055.QAA09962@homeport.org>



John Young wrote:
| The harping of US leaders on unidentified threats is making non-US
| folks rather nervous, not being sure that the US may not turn on
| its allies for the slightest of missteps or demurs, and cut off the
| bountiful flow of global intel -- as the TLAs are now threatening 
| Congressional committees. Crypto Czar Arons world consultations
| were apparently thinly veiled threats to compel GAK compliance.

	Recall "Secret Power," a book on the UKUSA agreements on joint
electronic surveillence of the world, in which New Zealand
participates.

	When NZ announced itself to be a nuclear free zone, the US
announced a cessation of shared intelligence activities.  It turns out
that this was utter bunk, and the work never hiccupped.

	If intel cooperation ceases, look for large cargo ships
carrying home US hardware.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Sep 20 14:24:50 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 05:24:50 +0800
Subject: Guardian: Screw the Internet
Message-ID: 




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Subject: Guardian: Screw the Internet

http://go2.guardian.co.uk:80/theweb/874505219-crypt.html

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    [Image]

   Spooks on both sides of the Atlantic are intent on retaining their
   power to monitor the world's telecoms traffic, writes Duncan Campbell
   Screw the Internet

      INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES in the US have stepped up their campaign to
      control the flow of information over the Internet, counterattacking
      an unholy alliance of civil libertarians and business chiefs who back
      the introduction of secure encryption technologies to protect
      personal privacy and commercial data online. Last Thursday in
      Congress, lobbying by the FBI and the National Security Agency won
      amendments to a draft pro-encryption law known as Safe (Security and
      Freedom through Encryption). The House Intelligence Committee
      replaced rights to sell effective encryption systems to the world
      with regulations to ban even US citizens from using them. The
      agencies and their political backers are now demanding that any
      American whose electronic communications cannot immediately be read
      by US intelligence should, after January 2000, face up to five years
      imprisonment. Furthermore, they want the US to use its political and
      industrial power to force the rest of the world to follow suit.

      Battle resumes in Washington a week today, when the likely more
      sympathetic House Commerce Committee will provide its review of the
      Safe law for Congress to consider. That done, Congessional leaders
      and the White House will have to negotiate which version of the Safe
      bill is to be taken ahead. If the new version of the bill succeeds,
      it will be illegal in the US to make or sell encryption systems
      unless the government can break the code and have "immediate access"
      to the contents of messages or phone calls.

      In Britain, the new government has soon to decide what line to take
      in this little-understood war that has almost paralysed the
      development of electronic commerce. Under pressure to formulate
      standards, New Labour has to decide if it wants to face the economic
      penalties of giving in to the spooks. If the secret agencies win, the
      losers will also be ordinary users of electronic commerce or e-mail.
      Without encryption to scramble the contents of messages, reams of
      Internet traffic can be read easily, not just by intelligence
      agencies, but by miscreants with direct access to the Net through
      routers or local area networks.

      E-mail is less secure than an ordinary telephone call, since ordinary
      telephone calls are connected "point to point" by a precise route
      rather than being broadcast between routers and into networks.
      Without encryption, e-mail containing sensitive private information
      or financial details, such as credit card numbers, can be read at
      numerous points as messages pass through the Net.

      This complex but fundamental issue for everyone in the information
      society has been made politically more difficult by an initiative
      launched in the dying days of the last government. Just before the
      election was called, the Department of Trade and Industry unveiled
      its version of the US system for ensuring that the government could
      read everyone's private communications.

      The DTI's version is a network of licensed agencies that would
      provide (and keep copies of) everyone's encryption codes, or keys. If
      sent a warrant, these Trusted Third Parties, or TTPs, would hand over
      keys at one hour's notice - a less demanding requirement than the
      latest US plans, but no less absurd or impossible to engineer, say
      Internet specialists. Plans to hold everyone's keys in central
      registries have also been slammed for creating a huge security
      threat, because everyone would be at risk if crooks were able to get
      into the central database.

      DTI officials were unprepared for the torrent of protest, abuse and
      reasoned objection that has arrived on their desks since early this
      summer. The former government's proposals have, it is understood,
      attracted not a single unqualified supporter. They were condemned out
      of hand by industry leaders, academics and civil libertarians alike.
      David Svendsen, head of Microsoft in the UK, says that "the DTI's
      plans are unworkable, unwieldy and unacceptable. Setting up a
      bureaucratic structure to regulate encryption services will isolate
      the UK from global electronic commerce. It will force us all to look
      elsewhere for barrier-free encryption technology, while UK plc will
      foot the bill."

      The battle in the US Congress follows setbacks for the intelligence
      agencies, which have been fighting to stop effective encryption
      systems from being exported. Classifying encryption software as
      "munitions", the US government banned the export of systems with key
      lengths (see Cracking the code, opposite) long enough to make them
      uncrackable. Thus, while Americans who use Web software browsers to
      make "secure" credit card purchases benefit from built-in encryption
      with strong 128-bit keys, Europeans have until now been permitted to
      use only weakened and insecure 48-bit keys.

      In August, the US government gave in to commercial pressure to relax
      restrictions, and non-US users of software to browse the Internet are
      already being offered upgrades to provide full 128-bit security. The
      catch, which is not being advertised, is that the licencees must
      provide the US government with backdoor access to the new systems.

      The extent to which this area of information technology has been held
      back is already remarkable. It's now 20 years since fundamental
      advances in mathematics created unique but simple new ways of
      encoding messages, known as public key cryptography, that did away
      with the need to exchange keys or codebooks before encrypted messages
      could be sent. In 1977, long before the Net reached its modern form,
      three mathematicians - Rivest, Shamir and Adelman - showed how to
      implement this revolution.

      Their RSA algorithm allows users to create separate "public" and
      "private" keys. To use a public key crytopgraphy system to, say, send
      a private message to OnLine, you would first obtain OnLine's
      published key. Many Net users (but not yet OnLine) publish such keys
      on their Web sites or in directories. You then scramble the message
      using the public key, and send it. The message can be decoded using
      only a matching private key, which only Online would have.

      The RSA algorithm is available for use on the Net, or for file
      protection, using a program called Pretty Good Privacy, or PGP, whose
      inventor, Colorado computer consultant Phil Zimmermann, is a Net
      legend. His reward for inventing PGP was not scientific accolade, but
      arrest and prosecution by the FBI. For having created PGP, he was
      accused of exporting munitions. Charges against Zimmermann were
      dropped only last year.

      Recognising that there could never be uniform international agreement
      to lock away cryptography as nuclear weapons are locked away,
      governments and information acquisition agencies have tended instead
      to attempt covertly to regulate encryption. This has taken the form
      of patent secrecy orders, attacks on research funding, the
      undermining of the international standardisation of cryptography, the
      harassment of inventors and commercial organisations, and legislative
      campaigns to restrict their work.

      In the shadows behind these events hide communications intelligence
      agencies - the US National Security Agency and Britain's Government
      Communications Headquarters (GCHQ). For 50 years, they have harvested
      intelligence from monitoring the world's international communications
      network. This activity is threatened by large-scale encryption.
      Historically, huge codebreaking resources have been used to try to
      break the codes of hostile states. But to use the same methods and
      resources against the mass of ordinary international communications
      would be costly and futile.

      The scale of NSA operations is staggering. Tens of billions of
      messages are intercepted every year. All international communications
      by satellite or undersea cable, and many domestic communications can
      be collected by taps or via satellite interception stations. GCHQ's
      interception station at Morwenstow near Bude, Cornwall, was built
      almost 30 years ago to spy not on the Soviets but on the West's
      international communications satellites, Intelsat.

      NSA's and GCHQ's electronic tentacles still reach round the world,
      and into the heart of Western policy making. Within the DTI, the
      director of technology policy and innovation, David Hendon, makes no
      secret that a substantial input to his work comes from GCHQ. At the
      European Commission, a former official of GCHQ's Communications
      Electronic Security Group, David Herson, has been steering EU policy
      on information security. Critics such as Ross Anderson, the computer
      security specialist based at Cambridge university, have accused them
      of being stooges for NSA.

      The DTI has hired consultants to summarise the responses to their TTP
      proposals, and hope to publish a summary in the autumn, together with
      policy proposals. The risk is that officials are still locked into
      the same Neanderthal security agenda that once branded the Home
      Secretary a subversive threat to the nation.

      Advice to ministers trying to understand this most complex part of
      the IT brief will need to balance the UK's national economic interest
      against the concerns of security officials anxious to maintain the
      intelligence service's "special relationship" with the US. Until last
      week's events, US attempts to control strong encryption had faced
      setbacks.

      Three weeks ago, a federal judge in San Francisco ordered the US
      government not to take action against Chicago academic Daniel
      Bernstein if he published encryption software on the Net. Export
      restrictions, said Judge Marilyn Patel, violated Bernstein's
      constitutional right to free speech. And US attempts to lobby the
      European Union and the OECD into backing an international system of
      cryptographic controls have failed. Despite US support from Britain
      and France, both organisations have backed and encouraged open use of
      cryptography (albeit with qualifications).

      The continued campaign against effective cryptography is still being
      fuelled by the raising of alarms about the potentially antisocial use
      of the Net, including those which Net enthusiasts cynically dub the
      "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse": terrorists, drug traffickers,
      paedophiles and organised crime. But the argument is specious.
      Forcing honest individuals and companies to turn over their keys or
      to use only licensed keys will not prevent criminals from using
      strong encryption outside of the mandatory system. Labour's policy,
      formulated before the election, had it right : "It is not necessary
      to criminalise a large section of the network-using public to control
      the activities of a very small minority of law-breakers."
      (http://www.labour.org.uk/views/info-highway/content.html)

      Last year, EU adviser and ex-GCHQ official David Herson was
      astonishingly candid about the real reason for playing on

      fears about the Net activities of terrorists and paedophiles. "Law
      enforcement is a protective shield for all the other governmental
      activities," he told two European journalists. "We're talking about
      foreign intelligence . . . that's what this is all about. Law
      enforcement is a smoke screen."

      If New Labour sticks to the policy adopted before the election, it
      should have little difficulty reaffirming its view that attempts to
      control the use of encryption technology are "wrong in principle,
      unworkable in practice, and damaging to the long-term economic value
      of the information networks". But if intelligence agency dinosaurs
      get their way, they will jeopardise not just personal privacy but the
      economic rewards of Net commerce.

      The winners will be those countries, such as Germany and many of
      those in Asia, that by rule of law or through commercial instinct
      stay resistant to NSA's and GCHQ's intelligence imperatives.

      [Duncan Campbell is a freelance writer and broadcaster, and not the
      Guardian's crime correspondent of the same name]

      17 September 1997


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Sep 20 14:26:47 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 05:26:47 +0800
Subject: US Crypto Laws cripple Euros
Message-ID: 




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Subject: US Crypto Laws cripple Euros

http://www.techweb.com:80/wire/news/1997/09/0917crylaws.html

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                  [TechWire]
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                       Home      Apple  Hardware Software Chips  Internati onal

                  U.S. Crypto Laws Cripple Euros, Expert Says
                  (09/17/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)
                  By Douglas Hayward, TechWire
                  [Image]
                  CAMBRIDGE, England -- The U.S. government's    Related
                  strategy of monitoring the computer networks   Stories:
                  of hostile governments is damaging the
                  communications infrastructure of its allies,   The
                  a leading encryption expert said.              Governmen t
                                                                 Eyes
                  The American enthusiasm for using              Encryptio n
                  "information warfare" strategies has resulted
                  in a weakening of the U.K. and European        Capitol H ill
                  civilian communications, said Ross Anderson,   Girds For  Key
                  an academic at Cambridge University, at the    Clashes O ver
                  International Symposium on Economic Crime      Encryptio n
                  held in Cambridge, England, on Tuesday.
                                                                 Computer
                  Information warfare -- the act of monitoring   Industry
                  or sabotaging an enemy's communications and    Riled Up  Over
                  computing infrastructure -- gained widespread  FBI Chief 's
                  attention during the Gulf War when the U.S.    Suggestio n
                  military hacked its way into Iraqi
                  communication networks.                        FBI Insis ts
                                                                 On Crypto
                  Anderson was a co-author of a highly critical  Access
                  report published in May that attacked the
                  Clinton administration's encryption export     Criminal
                  control policies. The report, written by a     Informati on
                  group of encryption experts, said an attempt   On The Wi res
                  to prevent users from getting access to
                  uncontrolled encryption products would result  [*] = L ink to
                  in substantial sacrifices in security and
                  cost.                                          our
                                                                 tech
                                       The Clinton               encyclope dia
                    -------------------administration, advised   for more
                    "We have to        by the U.S. National      info.
                    question the       Security Agency (NSA),    [Image]
                    wisdom of          wants to be able to
                    introducing        continue monitoring the
                    weaknesses into    communications of
                    our national       potentially hostile
                    infrastructures."  countries or groups. To
                    -- Ross Anderson   do this, it wants to
                    Cambridge          prevent these groups from
                    University         using unbreakable
                    -------------------encryption programs.

                  This policy, dubbed Offensive, means the U.S.
                  government insists on maintaining strict
                  controls over the export and use of
                  encryption to ensure that hostile governments
                  and groups don't get access to strong         [[Image]
                  encryption tools.

                  But this NSA-backed policy on restricting the
                  spread of strong encryption software has held
                  back the development of secure commercial and
                  governmental communications networks in
                  Europe, Anderson said.

                  Civilian communications networks whose
                  security has been weakened as a result of
                  U.S. policy include the Europewide Global
                  System for Mobile Communications telephone
                  networks, commercial banking networks, and
                  television broadcasting.

                  "We have to question the wisdom of
                  introducing weaknesses into our national
                  infrastructures," Anderson said. Europeans
                  are going to have to take more control over
                  industrial aspects of encryption, he said,
                  and develop policies with less input from the
                  people in the Pentagon.

                  "In the long term, the United Kingdom and its
                  European partners have to start thinking
                  carefully about the defensive vs. offensive
                  aspects of this business, Anderson said. "The
                  time is right for a fundamental realignment
                  of resources in this field."

                  Restrictions on encryption use mean the
                  British Patent Office has to use a weak form
                  of encryption when communicating with its
                  counterparts overseas, Anderson said. "They
                  use the size of keys I give to my students to
                  break as exercises," Anderson said.

                  The result is that highly confidential
                  information, including very valuable details
                  of intellectual property, can be intercepted
                  and decoded, he said. [TW]

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com  Sat Sep 20 16:03:10 1997
From: Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com (Christian Claborne)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:03:10 +0800
Subject: San Diego CPunk Physical meet this Thursday
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970920154105.0099a2d0@cyberthought.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


This Wednesday!!!

   San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium  Wednesday, Sep. 24, 1997.

   Topic:
	What action do we take if the situation get's out of hand (See message below 
from Mark H. below).


   It is my belief that any group, no matter how small, can accomplish great 
things if they apply themselves.  Cypherpunks are not just "users", they 
poses  several additional quanta of the stuff that enables creative thought, 
and skill.  

   Don't forget to bring your public key  fingerprint.  If you can figure out
how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool.  If you 
want
the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID.

   
Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop
       3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach.
       488-9060


Time:1800

Their Directions:
	8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit
	Take west mission bay drive
	Go right on Mission Blvd.

	On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd.
	It is located between roller coaster and garnett.
	It's kind of 40s looking building...  funky looking 
        (their description, not mine)

They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer + wine stuff.

See you there!

New guy, bring your fingerprint.

Drop me a note if you plan to attend... 


      2
  -- C  --


- ------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Hedges 
To: all-at-infonex at infonex.com
Subject: federal cryptography legislation
Sender: owner-all-at-infonex at infonex.com

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A bill called "SAFE" (HR-695, "Security and Freedom with Encryption") in
the U.S. House of Representatives would have allowed U.S. software
companies to export strong cryptography, and would have promoted privacy
in all U.S. communications. Cryptography is mathematical means of making a
message secret. Now, this bill has been rewritten to introduce more
restrictive cryptography legislation than ever before seen in the U.S.

Public support for cryptography use and export is very strong, as
evidenced by the California state legislature's unanimous vote 9/5/97,
calling on Congress and the President to revise and relax export laws
(SJR-29). Companies world-wide already produce strong cryptograpy
software, and U.S. buisness is rapidly losing ground in the world-wide
software and telecommunications market. 

The House National Security Committee this week voted to continue export
restrictions in the SAFE bill and to install "key escrow" proposals of the
defense and intelligence organizations. This would not only continue the
status quo legislation, it would strictly regulate and restrict domestic
use of cryptography, an unprecedented act. 

Key escrow legislation in SAFE would mandate government "back doors" in
all communications software before the end of the millennia in the United
States, imposing criminal penalties for use of secure cryptography.
Effectively, every citizen would be required to give law enforcement
involuntary and transparent access to all communications, including
financial, business, and personal messages. 

Key escrow also exposes all U.S. communication to a single point of
failure, which a hacker, spy, or corrupt official could exploit to gain
access to all personal, industry, and financial information. 

More information is available in our most recent press release. Press
releases can be viewed at http://www.anonymizer.com/press/. 

Please, call your congressional representatives and senators and encourage
them to oppose restrictive legislation on cryptography and mandated
government access to all communications. Names and phone numbers for your
local legislators can be obtained from www.house.gov and www.senate.gov. 

Sincerely,

Mark Hedges
Anonymizer Inc.
Infonex Internet Inc.

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jEEk7R2Maeg=
=VrfI
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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=/sWk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

                              ...  __o
                             ..   -\<,
Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com    ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on 
					  your computing needs.
http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/
PGP Pub Key fingerprint =  7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0  54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51
Avail on Pub Key server.  PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
Dreams.  They are just a "screen saver" for the brain.






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep 20 16:47:59 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:47:59 +0800
Subject: FIPS for KMI
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970920232746.008a35f0@pop.pipeline.com>



It's worth looking closely at the Cryptography Key Recovery
System (CKRS) documents published recently as part of
the FIPS KMI program. A meeting is scheduled next
month.

See the listing of the August Meeting reports at:

   http://csrc.nist.gov/tacdfipsfkmi/

They show how far the key recovery program has advanced.






From FARTNOC69 at aol.com  Sat Sep 20 17:39:50 1997
From: FARTNOC69 at aol.com (FARTNOC69 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:39:50 +0800
Subject: hey
Message-ID: <970920203001_-1598407374@emout19.mail.aol.com>



well i am a carder well i cant card because i have used all  of my drop
sites.. i can sell laps 4 top dollar so get back 2  me if  u need some one 2
sell stuff!l8erz






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep 20 19:44:45 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:44:45 +0800
Subject: Rep. Loretta Sanchez Hits Crypto Controls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970921022246.00895f40@pop.pipeline.com>



The Sanchez statement is from House Report 105-108, Part 3, 
published September 12 by the National Security Committee, 
which describes the Weldon-Dellums amendment to SAFE.

See the full report at:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt3.htm

The report includes a cost estimate by the Congressional 
Budget Officefor implementing SAFE. However, as far as
I can tell, the estimate does not include the cost of a GAK
system, and covers only the cost of export controls. Thus,
it appears to be vastly misleading.


               SUPPLEMENTAL VIEWS OF HON. LORETTA SANCHEZ


    Many of us when we think of encryption imagine the
``ENIGMA'' code breaking machines of World War Two or the
American Indian ``code talkers'' that helped us anticipate and
defeat Nazi and Imperial Japanese attacks. Those methods were
mechanical or human-based, and often depended on simple
arithmetical slight of hand to trick the enemy. Today,
encryption is complex mathematical algorithms that have become
an entirely new branch of mathematics involving intense
academic study.
    Until recently encryption was limited to governments and
large companies through U.S. export limitations and by the
limitations of existing hardware and software technologies. All
that began to change as the desktop computer became more
prevalent and the computing power available to the average user
jumped by leaps and bounds every year. When discussing the
power of the PC observers of the information technology
industry often predict that the computing power of
microprocessors would double roughly every 18 months.
    Because of this the rapidly developing speed and growth of
computers, the age of the ``unbreakable code'' has long since
passed. Manufacturers of encryption technology are engaged in a
rapidly accelerating race to develop the newest and strongest
code that can withstand attacks from the increasingly powerful
computers of the day. And it isn't just big companies and
governments that have the technology to break codes. Last
January, a graduate student broke a 40-bit code in just three-
and-a-half hours, the toughest code form American companies at
the time were allowed to export.
    Today, American companies are the world leaders in
encryption technology, but other companies and nations are
catching up. Strong encryption products and knowledge about the
science of cryptography is not limited to the United States. A
savvy computer user anywhere in the world can with just a few
clicks of the mouse find U.S. export-embargoed encryption. Many
freelancing code hackers maintain off-shore Internet meeting
sites to discuss the newest holes in encryption products.
    The proposed export controls which the Administration
argues helps to keep strong encryption out of the hands of
foreign adversaries will have little or no effect. Strong
encryption is available abroad and US companies are being put
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace.
    With this bleak and seemingly hopeless picture in mind how
do we protect ourselves from the threat of rogue nations and
other adversaries cloaking their communications from American
National Security efforts? The only viable solution is through
supporting a robust and aggressively competitive cryptography
industry in the United States. We must ensure that the United
States continues to maintain the deepest pool of cryptographic
experts in the world. American export limitations will only
serve to create a brain drain of these precious resources as
leading scientists leave our shores for more lucrative and
accommodating surroundings.
    All of us care about our national security and no one wants
to make it any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit
criminal acts. But we must also recognize encryption
technologies as an increasingly sharp double-edged sword. It
can also aid law enforcement and protect national security by
limiting the threat of industrial espionage and foreign spying,
but only when Americans are able to produce the sharpest swords
and the strongest encryption.
    I would also like to state for the record that for the
reasons stated above, I do not support the Dellums-Weldon
Amendment to H.R. 695, and would have voted against it.


                                                   Loretta Sanchez.

----------







From loki at infonex.com  Sat Sep 20 20:09:57 1997
From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:09:57 +0800
Subject: San Diego CPunk Physical meet this Thursday
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970920154105.0099a2d0@cyberthought.com>
Message-ID: 



You Might want to resend that with a corrected subject line. It says
Thursday while the body says Wednesday.

	-Lance

At 3:41 PM -0700 9/20/97, Christian Claborne wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>This Wednesday!!!
>
>   San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium  Wednesday, Sep. 24, 1997.
>
>   Topic:
>	What action do we take if the situation get's out of hand (See
>message below
>from Mark H. below).
>
>
>   It is my belief that any group, no matter how small, can accomplish great
>things if they apply themselves.  Cypherpunks are not just "users", they
>poses  several additional quanta of the stuff that enables creative thought,
>and skill.
>
>   Don't forget to bring your public key  fingerprint.  If you can figure out
>how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool.  If you
>want
>the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID.
>
>
>Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop
>       3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach.
>       488-9060
>
>
>Time:1800
>
>Their Directions:
>	8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit
>	Take west mission bay drive
>	Go right on Mission Blvd.
>
>	On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd.
>	It is located between roller coaster and garnett.
>	It's kind of 40s looking building...  funky looking
>        (their description, not mine)
>
>They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer + wine stuff.
>
>See you there!
>
>New guy, bring your fingerprint.
>
>Drop me a note if you plan to attend...
>
>
>      2
>  -- C  --
>
>
>- ------------------------
>Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Mark Hedges 
>To: all-at-infonex at infonex.com
>Subject: federal cryptography legislation
>Sender: owner-all-at-infonex at infonex.com
>
>- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>A bill called "SAFE" (HR-695, "Security and Freedom with Encryption") in
>the U.S. House of Representatives would have allowed U.S. software
>companies to export strong cryptography, and would have promoted privacy
>in all U.S. communications. Cryptography is mathematical means of making a
>message secret. Now, this bill has been rewritten to introduce more
>restrictive cryptography legislation than ever before seen in the U.S.
>
>Public support for cryptography use and export is very strong, as
>evidenced by the California state legislature's unanimous vote 9/5/97,
>calling on Congress and the President to revise and relax export laws
>(SJR-29). Companies world-wide already produce strong cryptograpy
>software, and U.S. buisness is rapidly losing ground in the world-wide
>software and telecommunications market.
>
>The House National Security Committee this week voted to continue export
>restrictions in the SAFE bill and to install "key escrow" proposals of the
>defense and intelligence organizations. This would not only continue the
>status quo legislation, it would strictly regulate and restrict domestic
>use of cryptography, an unprecedented act.
>
>Key escrow legislation in SAFE would mandate government "back doors" in
>all communications software before the end of the millennia in the United
>States, imposing criminal penalties for use of secure cryptography.
>Effectively, every citizen would be required to give law enforcement
>involuntary and transparent access to all communications, including
>financial, business, and personal messages.
>
>Key escrow also exposes all U.S. communication to a single point of
>failure, which a hacker, spy, or corrupt official could exploit to gain
>access to all personal, industry, and financial information.
>
>More information is available in our most recent press release. Press
>releases can be viewed at http://www.anonymizer.com/press/.
>
>Please, call your congressional representatives and senators and encourage
>them to oppose restrictive legislation on cryptography and mandated
>government access to all communications. Names and phone numbers for your
>local legislators can be obtained from www.house.gov and www.senate.gov.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Mark Hedges
>Anonymizer Inc.
>Infonex Internet Inc.
>
>- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
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>
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>=/sWk
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>                              ...  __o
>                             ..   -\<,
>Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com    ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on
>					  your computing needs.
>http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/
>PGP Pub Key fingerprint =  7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0  54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51
>Avail on Pub Key server.  PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
>Dreams.  They are just a "screen saver" for the brain.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki at infonex.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.infonex.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From demara at geocities.com  Sat Sep 20 20:33:05 1997
From: demara at geocities.com (Alexis)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:33:05 +0800
Subject: info
Message-ID: <342492B4.2C8E@geocities.com>



Can anyone help me out or tutor me in Hacking, phreaking, 
cracking, and cryptography, I know that you need to know all for to 
become a good hacker, I also heard that you guys don't mind teaching 
others. THanks
Alexis.






From 22345494 at mailexcite.com  Sun Sep 21 12:32:38 1997
From: 22345494 at mailexcite.com (22345494 at mailexcite.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Over 100 Adult Internet Channels Free!!
Message-ID: <8123123763182736128736.com>



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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Webmasters Only!
Message-ID: <199709211934.MAA05265@toad.com>


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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 20 23:26:51 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:26:51 +0800
Subject: Rep. Loretta Sanchez Hits Crypto Controls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970921022246.00895f40@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970920211528.006d6024@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>               SUPPLEMENTAL VIEWS OF HON. LORETTA SANCHEZ
....
>    I would also like to state for the record that for the
>reasons stated above, I do not support the Dellums-Weldon
>Amendment to H.R. 695, and would have voted against it.
>                                                   Loretta Sanchez.

A very pleasant flame by Rep. Sanchez.  It's unlikely that her
predecessor Bob Dornan would have been on our side....

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From fnorky at geocities.com  Sat Sep 20 23:59:17 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:59:17 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional  rights
In-Reply-To: <97Sep15.121816edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <34280d41.54409218@mail.geocities.com>



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:18:51 -0400, you wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>> At 04:36 AM 9/15/97 GMT, Douglas L. Peterson wrote:
>> >Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
>> >too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
>> >many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
>> >
>> >Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>> >sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>> 
>> Write better code.
>
>I can think of many examples of very bad code that is difficult to use but
>is very popular, an obvious one is that Apple wrote better code than MS.
>
>Even most sheeple rely on whatever is built in to MSWord or Excel than on
>PGP, so on that basis there is *NO* existing example of such code.
>
>So, not only do cypherpunks have to write code, it has to be better
>quality than Apple, with more marketing push than Microsoft.  And it must
>do something useful so they also have to invent a new application that
>would justify using the crypto it contains. 
>
>All while they do something else to pay for things like food and heat. 
>
>At this point it is easier to write laws.
>

No.  Just difficult.  Look at the rise of Linux and Free/Net/OpenBSD.  They are
slowly making it into the mainstream (I found a copy of RedHat Linux and
InfoMagic Linux for sale at a CompUSA last week).

Linux was slow to take off because it is an OS and difficult to learn from
scratch.  If we make programs for mainstream (Windows, MacOS, OS/2) that are
VERY easy to use, do somthing everyone wants, and are free (with source code), I
think they will take off.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From fnorky at geocities.com  Sat Sep 20 23:59:42 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:59:42 +0800
Subject: Self-Prohibition List
In-Reply-To: <199709150232.VAA00600@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <34270d10.54361003@mail.geocities.com>



>> List of things you should prohibit yourself from putting in writing
>> in a GAK'ed Universe:
>> 1. You're Jewish.
> 2. Your Sexual Predeliction, other than straight-missionary. 
 3. You are a member of the Cypherpunks.

-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From fnorky at geocities.com  Sun Sep 21 00:07:56 1997
From: fnorky at geocities.com (Douglas L. Peterson)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:07:56 +0800
Subject: Are we men or mice?  Re: House panel votes behind closed doors to build in Big Brother (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <34290f24.54892816@mail.geocities.com>



On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:15:15 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> We have a goddamn right to use encryption without a government backdoor.
>
>Frankly among certain crowds many backdoors and other bugs have been
>detected in most OS's, how will the mother fuckers keep them from being
>found and used?  I mean, all you have to do is simply get their attention
>and have them snoop on you, meanwhile you watch all the packets and record
>the weird ones and you've got a copy of their session.  Yeah, they may use
>crypto on the back door, but even so, you now know their formats, and can
>also disassemble the code.  When you do, you've got the hole and can
>publish it. 
>
>Once you publish the hole and break the program.  Who will have confidence
>in that program after it's broken?
>
>After the evil laws, our jobs will be to break ALL GAK'ed software.  How
>will they prevent that?  Passing more laws to make the exposure of bugs
>and holes illegal?  Sort of like the cell scanner laws? :)
>

They (the government) has already tried to do this by trying to pass laws that
would make reverse engineering illegal.  I remember reading about a bill in
congress earlier this year that would have done just this.  I don't know the
status of it (I didn't get the bill number).

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky at geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/






From warpy at sekurity.org  Sun Sep 21 01:02:24 1997
From: warpy at sekurity.org (Warpy)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:02:24 +0800
Subject: hey
In-Reply-To: <970920203001_-1598407374@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 



@aol.com says it all really...

Warpy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| http://suburbia.com.au/~warpy                                     |
| Key Fingerprint: 85 17 4A E3 0C C5 BB 24  36 22 BB A6 E8 41 D5 95 |
| Email: warpy at sekurity.org                                         |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 FARTNOC69 at aol.com wrote:

> well i am a carder well i cant card because i have used all  of my drop
> sites.. i can sell laps 4 top dollar so get back 2  me if  u need some one 2
> sell stuff!l8erz
> 






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Sun Sep 21 01:05:12 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:05:12 +0800
Subject: Are we men or mice?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3424D062.68D1@sk.sympatico.ca>



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From rickmun at 1stfamily.com  Sun Sep 21 18:33:40 1997
From: rickmun at 1stfamily.com (rickmun at 1stfamily.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Entrepreneurs *FREE*
Message-ID: <199709220133.SAA08407@toad.com>


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For quick and FREE details just send email with HOME-BIZ in the subject line.

I look forward to your response.






From canthony at info-nation.com  Sun Sep 21 06:30:31 1997
From: canthony at info-nation.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:30:31 +0800
Subject: L.A. Police Being Armed w/M16s by Defense
Message-ID: <199709211314.IAA18448@bitstream.net>



According to a Reuters article today, the LAPD have been issued 600 
M16 assault rifles that were supplied by the US Defense Dept.
-----

 Police Chief Bernard Parks said the guns will be assigned to
 specialized units and used ``in very unique situations.'' 

-------



#!/bin/perl -sp0777i




-- forwarded message --
Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!rice!bcm.tmc.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!news.voicenet.com!gsl-penn-ns.gsl.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news3.funet.fi!news.funet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!news.clinet.fi!liw.clinet.fi!not-for-mail
From: olaf at bigred.inka.de (Olaf Titz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce
Subject: cipe - encrypting IP tunnel, version 0.5.2
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.networking
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:26:10 GMT
Organization: private Linux site, southern Germany
Lines: 57
Approved: linux-announce at news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius)
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: liw.clinet.fi
NNTP-Posting-User: liw
X-Server-Date: 21 Sep 1997 07:26:12 GMT
Old-Date: 19 Sep 1997 11:08:19 +0200
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.os.linux.announce
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	=2N7/
Xref: wmich-news comp.os.linux.announce:1629

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


CIPE is a system for simple, yet reasonably secure IP encryption.
It sends encrypted datagrams encapsulated in UDP. It is not compatible
with IPSEC or anything else (except my other prototype implementation). 
Very lightweight and easy to handle. Comes with full description of
the protocol and usage examples.
GPLd and distributed from outside the USA.

Developed and tested on the Linux 2.0 series on i386 platform.
In theory it should run on other platforms; don't know about 2.1.

This package can be used to build "virtual private networks", i.e.
secure interconnection of subnetworks on top of the Internet. I use
it in such a situation for some months now.

Changes since 0.4.2:
- - Now supports routing over a SOCKS5 relayer.
- - Wrote a real manual.

Olaf Titz 

Here's the LSM:
Begin3
Title:		cipe
Version:	0.5.2
Entered-date:	12SEP97
Description:	A network device that does encrypted IP-in-UDP tunneling.
		Useful for building virtual private networks, etc.
                The package consists of a kernel module and driver program.
Keywords:	encryption, routing, tunnel, VPN
Author: 	olaf at bigred.inka.de (Olaf Titz)
Primary-site:	ftp.inka.de /sites/bigred/sw
		65k cipe-0.5.2.tar.gz
Copying-policy:	GPL
End



- -- 
This article has been digitally signed by the moderator, using PGP.
http://www.iki.fi/liw/lars-public-key.asc has PGP key for validating signature.
Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: linux-announce at news.ornl.gov
PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION.
This group is archived at http://www.iki.fi/liw/linux/cola.html

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-- end of forwarded message --






From shamrock at netcom.com  Sun Sep 21 08:44:29 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:44:29 +0800
Subject: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970921083724.0071d9d8@netcom10.netcom.com>



According to an article in Saturday's San Francisco Chronicle, the US
Senate's Rules Committee denied a junior Senate member's request to bring
his laptop to the floor. Aparently, the Rules Committee believes that
laptop use is incompatible with the hallowed nature of Senate debates.

Diane Feinstein is cited as saying that she strongly opposes laptops in the
Senate. She warned that if laptops were permitted, as many as 30-40 of the
100 members of the chamber might start using laptops (while making vital
decisions about the future of this nation).

The article also stated that mechanical pencils and wrist watches have
however been permitted since the early 1900's.

These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.

Give it up. Any dollar spent lobbying these Luddites is a dollar wasted.


--Lucky Green 
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/






From travel23 at juno.com  Sun Sep 21 09:17:08 1997
From: travel23 at juno.com (The Traveler)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:17:08 +0800
Subject: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <19970921.121353.3630.0.travel23@juno.com>



On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>According to an article in Saturday's San Francisco Chronicle, the US
>Senate's Rules Committee denied a junior Senate member's request to
bring
>his laptop to the floor. Aparently, the Rules Committee believes that
>laptop use is incompatible with the hallowed nature of Senate debates.

>These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
>will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.

>Give it up. Any dollar spent lobbying these Luddites is a dollar wasted.


Yeah, but if they did allow it, our tax money would go to buying a laptop
for each and everyone of them - and, of course, they would opt for the
most expensive laptops available.....


The Traveler


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Sometimes you're the bug, 
 sometimes you're the windshield."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++






From 46664880 at aol.com  Mon Sep 22 00:39:09 1997
From: 46664880 at aol.com (46664880 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Credit Card for you!!!!!
Message-ID: <199709240243.BAA12837@instaemail2all.net>




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From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Sep 21 10:39:02 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:39:02 +0800
Subject: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970921171629.0080d4f4@pop.pipeline.com>



Lucky Green wrote about banning lapdancing on the Senate floor:

Banning laptops continues a long tradition of congressional
resistance to technology, the Senate moreso than the House.

The Architect of the Capitol, an office as well as a person, has 
to deal with a heritage of Luddites who have resisted, as examples,
removal of cuspidors; installing women's facilities of all sorts: 
putting in air-conditioning (mechanical ventilation as well as 
cooling), electric lights, subterranean trams, elevators, smoke 
alarms, telephones!, telegraphs, electro-mechanical quorum 
and roll calls (bells, lights and pagers!), wheelchairs (just 
recently), and more -- virtually every invention has been 
delayed in the Capitol, along with compliance with the laws 
imposed on the country but not on hallowed halls.

Ex-AoCs sometimes leak the stupifying arguments the 
solons make for maintaining their supposedly superior 
lifestyles free of demanding gadgetry and popular fad: 
their preference is for human servants over devices in order
to maintian deniability, for while flesh and blood is what the 
beasts know best how to cajole, seduce and terrorize 
it is also the reason they remain ever ready for betrayal
and opportunistic one-night-stand switching of lifetime fidelity.

Blinking, recording, error-archiving, machines scare the shit 
out of the the fork-tongue power-aphrodisiacal nymphomaniacs, 
not to say that the rest of us would act so differently given a 
seat in inner circles of jerks getting lapdanced on a magic 
carpet -- who wants that in the National Archives of Perfidy?

Often the reason folks oppose new technology is that it threatens
their network of operations based on old technology, as the
case with encryption.

Still, it's worth considering what leaked Senate plaintext 
(gov, pol, illicit)  would induce the secrecy-obsessed senators 
to support strong crypto for their own privacy of stashed 
wealth and squelched Paulas?

Often new technology is resisted because that it threatens
networks of successful operations of barely legal scams based 
on old technology, as the case with encryption, tv, radio, 
telephone, telegraph, printing, highways, roads, trails, stars, 
evil eyes, body stench, intuition, fear, mother's milk, amniotic 
warmth, egg and dart, downhole non-existence.

To be sure, there are disclosures of red-faced liaisons, the sort
recorded in hallowed halls and red-flocked boudoirs, that the 
TLAs (mirroring the KGB) may be threatening Congress with, 
in the eye-opening publications of Kalliste. See:

   http://www.aci.net/kalliste/







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sun Sep 21 11:04:30 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:04:30 +0800
Subject: US Senate bans laptops
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970921083724.0071d9d8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709211754.SAA00603@server.test.net>




Lucky Green  writes:
> These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
> will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.
> 
> Give it up. Any dollar spent lobbying these Luddites is a dollar wasted.

I was thinking if the money spent lobbying had been offered as prize
money for breaking crap crypto, it might have had more effect.

Or perhaps as a bribe to obtain the LEAF family key or indeed the NSAs
master copy of the database, or both copies of the split database.

Even just burning the money would probably have been better for the
crypto cause, than feeding the shysters.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199709212016.OAA27225@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970921:1316 
    John Young  purported to expostulate:

+To be sure, there are disclosures of red-faced liaisons, the sort
+recorded in hallowed halls and red-flocked boudoirs, that the  TLAs
+(mirroring the KGB) may be threatening Congress with,  in the
+eye-opening publications of Kalliste. See:

+   http://www.aci.net/kalliste/


    yes, to be sure the Harvard grad school educated Dr. Grabbe will
    have an opinion, delivered in a cloak, over a beer, at some rowdy
    bar in Sparks NV.  I fear he has delusions of Hunter S.

    hwoever, no one ever said his material lacked entertainment value;
    and all comedy is but the presentation of truth in a loosely 
    encrypted form.

+Blinking, recording, error-archiving, machines scare the shit  out of
+the the fork-tongue power-aphrodisiacal nymphomaniacs,  not to say
+that the rest of us would act so differently given a  seat in inner
+circles of jerks getting lapdanced on a magic  carpet -- who wants
+that in the National Archives of Perfidy?

    amen

    it is their blind fear that information will not only enlighten the     
    ignornant masses, but it will make them free, empowering them to     
    depose the bloated and mutated forms of power which wander the halls
    of the usurped republic's once hallowed chambers.

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep 21 15:08:35 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:08:35 +0800
Subject: Fwd: Re: Quor's cypher
Message-ID: <199709212145.XAA07725@basement.replay.com>



This is a really nifty encryption program.  It runs about half the speed
of rc4, but seems much more secure.


--- Forwarded Message:

From: quor at nym.alias.net
Subject: Re: tell me what you think of this...

[snip]

---

/* Stream ciphers are often used because of their speed and simplicity of
implementation despite their inherent weakness against known-plaintext,
ciphertext-modification, and key-reuse attacks.  The algorithm described
below provides a more secure alternative for encrypting data eight bits
at a time, which, while maintaining a simple self-inverting architecture,
provides resistance to the aforementioned attacks, and features a large
keyspace, small code size, back traffic protection, and resistance to
timing attacks and differential cryptanalysis. */


/* Qcypher.c */

#include 

unsigned char a,b,c,state[256];

unsigned char q(unsigned char i)
{
  static unsigned char a0,a1,b0,b1,c1,c2,c3,c4,o,d1,d2,d3,d4;

  a0=state[a];
  a1=state[a0];
  b0=state[b];
  b1=state[b0];
  c1=i^(0xAA&state[(i&0x55)^a]);
  c2=c1^(0x55&state[(c1&0xAA)^b]);
  c3=c2^(a+b)^(a0+b0);
  c4=c3^(0x55&state[(c3&0xAA)^b]);
  o=c4^(0xAA&state[(c4&0x55)^a]);
  d1=i&o;
  d2=i^o;
  d3=c2&c3;
  d4=c2^c3;
  state[c&=255]^=a^d4;
  state[c^0x80]^=b^d4;
  a+=d1+b1+1;
  b^=d2^d3^a1;
  c++;
  return(o);
}

void setkey(unsigned char *key, int len)
{
  int x;
  a=b=c=0;
  for(x=256;x--;state[x]=0);
  for(x=0;x0)
    putchar(q(byte));
}






From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 22 06:18:23 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:18:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Revised Agenda for Digital Money Conference
Message-ID: 



--- begin forwarded text


Subject: Revised Agenda for Digital Money Conference
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 10:17:02 +0000
x-sender: daveb at mail.hyperion.co.uk
From: "David G.W. Birch" 
To: "Bob Hettinga" 
Mime-Version: 1.0

Bob,

Here is the revised agenda for the forthcoming London conference on
Digital Money. Can you repost to all the usual interesting places.

Many thanks,
Dave Birch.

********************************************
Digital Money: New Era or Business as Usual?

London, England, 7th-8th October 1997
*************************************

Hyperion are co-sponsors of a two day seminar bringing together leaders
in the field. The seminar is organised by Unicom
 in association with Lotus, NCR, Computer
Associates, Attachmate, IMIS, Automatic ID News, British Computer Society
and the Institute of Management Consultants.

The seminar costs UKP 845 plus VAT where applicable and places should be
booked through Lisa Murray at Unicom  directly.
*****************************************************

Opening Address: Digital Money Directions
David G.W. Birch, Director, Hyperion.
Dave will sketch out 8 key questions about the future direction of
digital money schemes and relate them to the current state of digital
money deployment in Europe.

Keynote Address: Monetary Innovation in Historical Perspective
Glyn Davies, Professor Emeritus and economic advisor to Julian Hodge Bank
Ltd. A copy of Glyn's excellent book "A History of Money from Ancient
Times to the Present Day" will be presented free to all delegates with
the compliments of Hyperion.

Digital Money and Laissez-Faire Banking
David Cronin, formerly with Bank of Ireland.

Digital Money Liability
Nick Lockett, Field Fisher Waterhouse.

Why is the Electronic Economy Different?
John Browning (edited Wired UK).

Programmable Currenies
Howard Smith, CSC

Trading in the Internet Financial System
Ian Grigg, Systemics

The Electronic Purse in Context
Peter Hirsch, Retail Banking Research

Mondex, A Status Report
Steve Maier, Mondex International

E-Cash, GSM and the Net
Julian Wilson, AT&T Unisource

Electronic Purse: the lessons so far
Steve Johnson, Verifone

Getting from Real Money to Electronic Money
Robert Zipplies, DigiCash

Micropayments
Speaker from IBM

The Cybercash Solution Set
Steve Crispinelli, Cybercash

The Millicent Scheme
Henry Gouraud, Digital UK.

------------------------------------------------------------------
David G.W. Birch, Director.      Hyperion, 8 Frederick Sanger Road
http://www.hyperion.co.uk/           Guildford, Surrey GU2 5YD, UK
mailto:daveb at hyperion.co.uk                  Tel:+44(0)1483 301793
Finger for my PGP public key                 Fax:+44(0)1483 561657

Where people, networks and money come together....consult Hyperion

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 21 15:21:25 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:21:25 +0800
Subject: I`m back ;-)...
Message-ID: 



	
I`m finally back on the list, after an absence of about 2 or 3 months, 
but not for long. Circumstances since the machine running fatmans blew 
smoke at me dictated that getting the box running again took a low 
priority amongst the many other things I have been doing recently.

Like I said, I`ll be off the list again soon, maybe just a quick address 
change, maybe a couple of weeks or more whilst I move. Whichever way, you 
can get me at this address now and always get me on +44 (0)410 933 621 
for urgent business.

BTW. Is there anything I should know about that has happened in the 
crypto world since my dissapearance.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From azur at netcom.com  Sun Sep 21 16:29:59 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:29:59 +0800
Subject: PBS Newshour?
Message-ID: 



It seems without exposure of our views to a wider, educated, audience
there's little chance of being heard above the clamor raised by LE.
Although PBS is partly gov't funded it does seem to have tacked some
relatively sensitive political topics in a balanced manner.  Why don't we
write and call to suggest they plan a segment on this issue next week?
Declan, got any juice?

--Steve







From 14017139 at 02744.com  Mon Sep 22 07:36:47 1997
From: 14017139 at 02744.com (14017139 at 02744.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:36:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: From Me...
Message-ID: <970968182102.10741@mtigwc01>


Me:������ "Do you own a personal computer?"...
You:����� Yes.

Me:������ "Running Windows ver 3.xx or 95?"
You:����� Sure.� Why?

Me:������ "Wanna' make $10,000 cash in the next 60 to 90 days?"
You:����� Who wouldn't?

Me:������ "Without leaving home?"
You:����� Really?� What's it about?

Me:������ "I own a software program that explains the business?  Do you want to download a FREE evaluation copy?"
You:����� Are you going to tell me what it's about? 

Me:������ "That's not the way I work.  The answers are in the software.  Do you want to download it?"
You:����� Looks like I've got nothing to lose.� OK!� Where is it ?

Me:������ "Just click here:  ----> http://207.213.38.77/megaresource/ or if by chance you are unable to download it,
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From azur at netcom.com  Sun Sep 21 16:58:09 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:58:09 +0800
Subject: RJ Op-Ed piece
Message-ID: 



Using substantial portions of Bill Frantz's "Key Recovery is Bad for US
Security" letter to Sen. Swienstein and with his encouragement, I've had a
piece, "Cryptography ban would cost jobs, freedom," published in this
Sunday's Las Vegas Review-Journal :
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/1997/Sep-21-Sun-1997/opinion/6067100.html

This item is in response to Vin Suprynowicz's Sept 12 editorial, posted as
"Column, Sept. 12," to this list, also in the RJ.

--Steve








From azur at netcom.com  Sun Sep 21 17:37:30 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:37:30 +0800
Subject: EAR question
Message-ID: 



If crypto source code is published in printed form and distributed under a
non-disclousre agreement does it meet the uncontrolled export criteria
under the new EAR regs?  My question seems to hinge on the definition of
"general distribution," in Sec. 734.7.

The key passages seem to be:

Sec. 734.3  Items subject to the EAR.

* * * * *
    (b) * * *
    (3) Publicly available technology and software, except software
controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control
List, that:
    (i) Are already published or will be published as described in
Sec. 734.7 of this part;
    (ii) Arise during, or result from, fundamental research, as
described in Sec. 734.8 of this part;
    (iii) Are educational, as described in Sec. 734.9 of this part;
    (iv) Are included in certain patent applications, as described in
Sec. 734.10 of this part.

    Note to paragraphs (b)(2) and (b)(3) of this section: A printed
book or other printed material setting forth encryption source code
is not itself subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However,
notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2), encryption source code in
electronic form or media (e.g., computer diskette or CD ROM) remains
subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(3)).


Sec. 734.7  Published information and software.

* * * * *
    (b) Software and information is published when it is available for
general distribution either for free or at a price that does not exceed
the cost of reproduction and distribution. See Supplement No. 1 to this
part, Questions G(1) through G(3).








From enoch at zipcon.net  Sun Sep 21 18:43:05 1997
From: enoch at zipcon.net (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:43:05 +0800
Subject: I`m back ;-)...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <19970922013325.9891.qmail@zipcon.net>



Paul Bradley writes:

> BTW. Is there anything I should know about that has happened in the 
> crypto world since my dissapearance.

Jackbooted thuggery is easy.  Comedy is hard. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch at zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca  Sun Sep 21 19:54:25 1997
From: ualdv8 at sk.sympatico.ca (Six)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:54:25 +0800
Subject: Hhmmm...
Message-ID: <3425DA95.20CC@sk.sympatico.ca>



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From jito at eccosys.com  Sun Sep 21 19:57:42 1997
From: jito at eccosys.com (Joichi Ito)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:57:42 +0800
Subject: Cypherpunks-J meeting 9/27
Message-ID: <199709220249.LAA29648@eccosys.com>



Sorry for the cross postings...

Cypherpunks-J 9/27 meeting

Location: Bithaus http://www.bithaus.co.jp/ (has map)
Time: 1pm

Language: The meeting will be conducted primarily in Japanese, 
but there will be translation for non-Japanese if necessary
so RSVP.

Agenda:

Currently being discussed on cypherpunks-j, but will include:

Writing Japanese Cypherpunk text and putting it online
Writing code in Japan
Update on US Policy activity
Keysigning

If you would like to participate in the keysigning, please
send your PGP Key Fingerprint and ID to keysign at ji.to

P.S. If you have something you would like to present at the
meeting, please bring it up in cypherpunks-j at htp.org


--
Ars Electronica 9/8-9/14 -- GSM in Europe: +49-171-357-9233 (rental)
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe at ji.to




From tm at dev.null  Sun Sep 21 20:04:31 1997
From: tm at dev.null (TruthMonger)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:04:31 +0800
Subject: I`m back ;-)...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3425DCC5.2E1@dev.null>



Paul Bradley wrote:

> BTW. Is there anything I should know about that has happened in the
> crypto world since my dissapearance.

You seem to be getting out of prison at the same time that the
rest of us are getting arrested.
Coincidence?

(Excuse me, there's someone at the door...)

TruthMooooooooooooooooooooo






From ghio at temp0115.myriad.ml.org  Sun Sep 21 20:20:37 1997
From: ghio at temp0115.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:20:37 +0800
Subject: FPGAs
Message-ID: <199709220314.XAA14274@myriad>



Here are a few programs which haven't been mentioned here before.  They take
C/C++ code and compile it to FPGAs, which might be interesting to someone
who's working on, oh, say RC5...

The first is at http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/EECG/RESEARCH/tmcc/tmcc/
and compiles C code to Xilinx or Altera FPGAs.

Another is at ftp://lslsun5.epfl.ch/pub/nlc*
It uses a slightly different syntax and targets Xilinx chips.

There's also a routing optimizer at
http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~lemieux/sega/sega.html

http://193.215.128.3/freecore/ gives plans for building a programmer to
load designs into Altera FPGAs.


While I not sure how well-optimized the output from such software is, it
is interesting to note that someone with relatively basic electronics and
computer programming experience could put together a massively parallel
key-cracker.






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Sun Sep 21 20:41:17 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:41:17 +0800
Subject: politics aren't all or nothing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Sep21.232903edt.32260@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Mark Hedges wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >like White Aryan Resistance and Hamas and so on can thrive and link up
> 
> I see, well, whatever. Kinda makes me think maybe I'm wrong and should
> vote for cryptofascists. However, I won't, because I don't want the
> government looking over my shoulder. I think there are plenty of ways for
> people whose agenda is a good, peaceful world to organize against groups
> like WAR and CIA and Hamas and the rest, without having to legislate. I
> don't understand how you can judge which violent, fascist, oppressive
> group is the correct one to support. Did you know there are other groups
> who are not violent, fascist, or oppressive? Did you know that
> occasionally, violent, oppressive fascists have changed their minds? 

...

> I don't think the national security folk have "a good, peaceful world" in
> mind for anyone.  They have in mind a world in which a small, exclusive
> group of people can use, take from and manipulate the masses. All of these
> groups do.

> The history of violent revolution, even in the name of the people, is
> filled with the leaders of the revolution assuming the same damn
> imbalanced positions of power which were there before. They might call it
> a President instead of a King, or maybe Prime Minister or Premier. The

...

> They all seem to fit into the same category --- Hamas, Infada, the secular
> Algerian "Ninjas", the Federal urban assault task forces, DEA thugs who
> raid the homes of innocent people, etc.  They're all fighting, and it
> seems like people pick up any side of an issue just so they can fight.
> Why? 

Let me agree and go further.

I believe in liberty (which encompasses the issues around cryptography) 
because I believe in human dignity.  But that also forces me to believe in
the right to life - Jefferson listed it before liberty in the declaration,
and if you don't have any other reason to agree, just note that dead
people don't have any use for liberty.  People are deprived of property
before liberty, and liberty before life in any system that I would
consider just.  But then I think about what is liberty and justice and
good and evil instead of demonizing whoever is doing something I don't
happen to like at the moment.

I don't defend any of those evils that would be made easier by the
presence of crypto, nor those who would destroy liberty to save it, on
either side of the debate.  You don't destroy something you consider
precious.  I condemn anyone who takes innocent life - be it the FBI at
Waco or McVeigh at OKC.  It is the act that is evil, and the intent or
negligence of the actor that makes it so, not which political side the
actor is on.

If crypto is banned in the US, there will still be some country where it
is legal - you might not like the economy or the climate, but you would
still have crypto and various other liberties.  The generations preceeding
our founders moved here because they didn't have liberty in their
homeland.  The life was harder, but they considered some specific freedoms
more important than the attraction of business in cities.

Even our Declaration of Independence doesn't call for the assasination of
anyone in Parliment or King George (and there were terrorist plots in
english history to do exactly this), but merely separation - in one sense
merely restoring the separation which was the reason their ancestors came
to the new world.

There was another revolution shortly after ours, in France.  But was
France better after the revolution during the reign of terror or during
the reign of Louis? 

>From http://net.fcref.org/comm/nrcomm/1997/nr050597.htm:

A Savoyard who lived through the French Revolution, Joseph de Maistre,
writes:

   "And you, mad philosophes . . . apostles of tolerance and humanity; you
. . . who extol the progress of intelligence and reason: Leave your tombs. 
Walk among the many corpses . . . Your writings are in the pockets of the
tyrants . . . In the name of virtue the most horrible thievery is
committed; in the name of humanity two million men perish; in the name of
liberty a thousand Bastilles are built . . . They left you only a moment,
Diderot, to sign the order for mass drownings."



I have been disturbed about the increasing tone of violence of the various
posts.  Didn't like what happened at Waco?  Then lets be the very
terrorists of the four cypher horsemen and kill even more children.  Don't
like voluntary ratings?  Then suggest posting kiddie porn and labeling it
as G rated.

Maybe China will nuke most of California - it may be an accident at their
new port.  Or one of the cults will release a biological agent.  Or even a
severe earthquake.  Should I shed a tear then? 

Even the French philosophers taught tolerance and humanity and would have
abhored the results.  Since even the intent is now bloodlust, first for
Reno and Freeh, then for everyone in the vacinity of Washington DC, then
for anyone who ever worked for the Feds... then for the liberals who
supported civil but not economic rights, and then the conservatives who
supported economic but not civil rights.  Don't work on better ciphers,
see if you can design a faster guillotine. 

And where does it stop?  When all the cities are burning?  When the people
who don't understand technology or how you have their liberty in mind get
guns and kill anyone they see?  When everything breaks down and you are
starving or dying of a disease you need technology to treat?  When all the
plants making the chips and fiber used for the internet are destroyed?

How many incinerated corpses will you need at your hands and those of your
diciples before you are satisfied that liberty is finally restored?  And
then will you worry about restoring other fundamental rights such as life? 
And if you care nothing for life, why should you expect anyone to respect
liberty? 

Starting a revolution might not be easy, but controlling it is harder and
ending it can be impossible.  And our economy and technology depends on
integration and cooperation to a much higher degree than at any other
time.  I may be able to be an individual on the internet, but I cannot
build a computer starting with sand, copper and steel.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sun Sep 21 21:13:27 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:27 +0800
Subject: Assassination Politics of a sort
Message-ID: <199709220404.AAA05960@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




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   [42][LINK] Friday, September 19, 1997
   [43][LINK] [44]Index
   
                   Howe is 'sickened' by bounty on Internet
                                       
     By Ted Kulfan
     
     The Detroit News
     
        There's a bounty on Gordie Howe's head. And Gordie isn't
     laughing about it.
     
        Howe, 69, is planning to file a police complaint against a
     California radio personality who offered a bounty to have "the old
     fool pummeled back to reality."
     
        The bounty is a reaction to Howe coming out of retirement to
     play with the Detroit Vipers on Oct. 3 against the Kansas City
     Blades at The Palace. He will be playing in his sixth decade.
     
        Jim Rome, a Los Angeles-based sports radio host, is running a
     pledge drive on the Internet and offering the money to any player
     who "drops the gloves with Gordie and lands at least one punch."
     
        On his "Bitter Gordie Howe" web site, Rome called Howe's wish to
     extend his professional career to six decades an "asinine stunt."
     The web-site address is www.jimrome.com
     
        Calls to Rome were not returned.
     
        Howe's wife and business manager, Colleen, said she and her
     husband are "absolutely sickened" by the web site.
     
        "We love the modern technology, but we're concerned about the
     kind of thing we're seeing here," Colleen Howe told the Toronto
     Globe and Mail in Thursday's editions. "There are rich people out
     there who may be enticed into ensuring that some harm is done to
     Gordie."
     
        The Howes could not be reached Thursday night.
     
        Vipers General Manager Rick Dudley said the team would have no
     comment until looking further into the situation.
     
        Wayne Logan, Howe's attorney, said he was in the process of
     filing a complaint with Los Angeles police to stop Rome's campaign,
     which had collected $5,071 as of Sunday at 10 p.m.
     
        "In a time when celebrities are worried about their safety,
     we're concerned about some crackpot who might take a shot at Gordie
     from the stands to collect the money," Logan said.
     
        Logan said the president of the Blades assured him the team
     would not single out Howe.
     
        Rome held a pledge drive last year, raising $6,645 when Howe
     attempted a comeback with the Syracuse Crunch of the American
     Hockey League. But Howe never played with Syracuse. The team, in
     the midst of a playoff chase, didn't want to lose a roster spot.
     
     Detroit News wire services contributed. 
     
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From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sun Sep 21 21:13:29 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:29 +0800
Subject: Network Solutions sued for antitrust violation
Message-ID: <199709220406.AAA06002@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1]SIDEBAR 
   
                          [2]Newsbytes Advertising
                                      
Uncle Sam Sued Over Net Control

   ****Uncle Sam Sued Over Net Control 09/19/97 WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A.,
   1997 SEP 19 (NB) -- By Bob Woods. First, New York City-based PGMedia
   took on Herndon, Virginia-based Network Solutions Inc. (NSI) over that
   company's control over Internet domain name registrations - now
   PGMedia said it is adding the US government to the defendant column of
   the suit, in the form of the National Science Foundation (NSF).
   PGMedia wants to compete with NSI in the domain name registration
   game.
   
   PGMedia, which is also known as "name.space," charges both defendants
   with violating US antitrust laws, saying that neither party has the
   authority "to restrict or forestall the complete opening of the Domain
   Name Registration market." Company officials said the NSF has
   "injected" itself into the domain name dispute by claiming on behalf
   of the US government that it controls the domain name system.
   
   PGMedia said it "steadfastly believes that the National Science
   Foundation has no authority to restrict or forestall the complete
   opening of the domain name registration market." Company officials
   said that even if the NSF did have control, its actions "have the
   clear effect of limiting freedom of expression in the first and
   foremost avenue of speech on the Internet -- the domain name."
   
   An NSF official told Newsbytes that the Foundation did not have an
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   PGMedia first took legal action against NSI last March, after NSI
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   servers be added to the root zone file, PGMedia officials said. That
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   proposed allowing unlimited TLDs -- but only if the NSF had no
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   NSI is in a five-year contract with NSF to provide domain name
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   PGMedia said that the NSF has no more of a place in this debate than
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   speech in the top level name space even if it did.
   
   In June and August of this year, the NSF informed NSI that it
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   PGMedia said.
   
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   bring the issue of "who ultimately controls the global Internet" to a
   "court of competent jurisdiction," in the form of the US Federal
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From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sun Sep 21 21:13:41 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:41 +0800
Subject: Internet putting truth in danger
Message-ID: <199709220404.AAA05944@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1]Cable & Wireless
   [2]UK News [3]Electronic Telegraph
   Friday 19 September 1997
   Issue 847
   
   [4]See text menu at bottom of page
   Internet 'putting truth in danger' 
   By Alison Boshoff
   _________________________________________________________________
   
   External Links
   
   [5][LINK]
          Safe Surf's Proposal for a Safe internet Without Censorship
          
   [6][LINK]
          Campaign for Internet Freedom
          
   [7][LINK]
          Conspiracy Theory - Publisher's Rant
          
   [8][LINK]
          Dimitry's Save the Conspiracy Theories Campaign
          
   [9][LINK]
          Conspiracy Theory Land
          
   [10][LINK]
          Disinformation
          
   [11][LINK]
          Make your own conspiracy theory - Turn Left
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   THE generation that has grown up on The X-Files poses a threat to the
   future of journalism, Fergal Keane, the BBC's Asia Correspondent, said
   last night.
   
   Mr Keane, delivering the Huw Weldon Memorial Lecture at a television
   convention, said that he was worried about the growing influence of
   the Internet, and the conspiracy theories that are aired on it.
   
   He told the Royal Television Society's Cambridge Convention that the
   rash of rumours about the circumstances of the death of Diana,
   Princess of Wales showed that there was a public appetite for
   speculation and fantasy. He said: "Will the generation growing up on
   The X-Files really want to choose calm, considered reportage when they
   have science-fiction and fantasy?"
   
   He said that the trend threatened to plunge reporting into the
   "rumour-ridden gloom of the Middle Ages".
   
   Another danger, said Mr Keane, lay in the trend towards trivia and
   celebrity that was increasingly taking control of the journalistic
   agenda.
   
   He referred to the "beautiful airhead syndrome" and to stories about
   the "dumbing down of the BBC" but said that the corporation's rich
   history of quality reporting meant that it would not head in that
   direction.
   
   He said: "As someone who is neither pretty nor wise, I feel able to
   take the view that dumbing down will not happen at the BBC. If it did,
   it would desert the finest tradition of broadcasting professionalism
   in the world."
   
   Mr Keane said news organisations faced greater challenges than ever,
   with bigger and more diverse audiences who probably knew less about
   the world than their predecessors. He warned of a sacred journalistic
   duty to celebrate the truth.
   
   He said that there was a danger that some news organisations became
   little more than a "carnival of egos" because of a "star system"
   operating among their correspondents, and had to guard against
   employing anyone who was less than exceptional and less than
   dedicated.
   
   [12]3 December 1996: Conspiracy theories on the Internet
   [13]27 June 1997: Beware the Internet's first aid, say doctors
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next report: [14]Sleepwalker survives 60ft fall
     _________________________________________________________________
   
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   | [25]A-Z | [26]Archive | [27]Shopping | [28]Classified | [29]Help |
   
   � [30]Copyright Telegraph Group Limited 1997. [31]Terms & Conditions
   of reading.
   
   Information about [32]Telegraph Group Limited and [33]Electronic
   Telegraph.
   
   "Electronic Telegraph" and "The Daily Telegraph" are [34]trademarks of
   Telegraph Group Limited. These marks may not be copied or used without
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References

   1. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=12&AdID=123&URL=http://www.cwcom.co.uk/question/adlink.html
   2. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixnews.html
   3. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/home.html
   4. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et/map/menu_ac=000140326706927_rtmo=32b91bbe_atmo=32b91bbe
   5. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.safesurf.com/online.htm&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   6. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.easynet.co.uk/cam/censorship/&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   7. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/tucson.com/ComicNews/rants/rant05.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   8. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~dchamy/consp.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
   9. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~panicbuy/HaTeMaiL/conspiracy.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
  10. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.disinfo.com/&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
  11. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/offsite/www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html&P4_from_link=97/9/19/ntosh19.html
  12. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/96/12/3/ecplo203.html
  13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/97/6/27/wnet27.html
  14. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/97/9/19/nsleep19.html
  15. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/home.html
  16. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixnews.html
  17. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixworld.html
  18. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixcity.html
  19. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixsport.html
  20. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/ixcross.html
  21. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixweath.html
  22. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixmatt.html
  23. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/etc/iecon.html
  24. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/etc/etchome.html
  25. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixaz.html
  26. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/ixsearch.html
  27. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/shopping/ixshop.html
  28. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/et/classad/ixclass.html
  29. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/ixhelp.html
  30. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/copyright.html
  31. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/tsandcs.html
  32. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/tplc.html
  33. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/etinfo.html
  34. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/trademark.html
  35. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/corp/trademark.html
  36. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=32b91bbe&atmo=32b91bbe&pg=/email.html






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sun Sep 21 21:13:47 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:13:47 +0800
Subject: Virtual Casinos booming in Antigua
Message-ID: <199709220407.AAA06032@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1]Los Angeles Times
   [News..............] ______________
   [Site Index.......] ______________
   [2][ISMAP]-[3]FRONT PAGE
   
   [4]Leading Ladies
   
                                               Sunday, September 21, 1997
                                                                         
   'Virtual Casinos' Cash In on Lax Rules in Antigua 
   By [5]MARK FINEMAN, Times Staff Writer
   
   
   [6]PREV STORY
   [7]NEXT STORY
   S T. JOHN'S, Antigua and Barbuda--None of the 64,000 residents of this
   small, three-island Caribbean nation have complained about the latest
   international gambling boom to sweep their secretive little piece of
   paradise.
        In the past few months, more than a dozen casinos have opened
   here--though most Antiguans haven't seen them and don't know they
   exist.
        Packed with games of roulette, blackjack, poker and craps, each
   gambling house is small enough to fit into the corner of a tiny room.
   Yet their owners say they are taking in millions of dollars a month
   from thousands of bettors, from Los Angeles to New York and beyond.
        It's Internet gambling--a wave of hot new Web sites set up as
   "virtual casinos" that allow you to win or lose real money from the
   comfort of your own home. And most of these sites originate in small
   villas or obscure offices on 108-square-mile Antigua, which is as
   famous for its secrecy and scandals as it is for its freewheeling tax
   laws and banking policies.
        There are no taxes on capital gains or income in Antigua and
   Barbuda. The government shuns outside scrutiny, even from its own
   citizens. During the past decade, it has licensed at least 57 offshore
   banks and at least two major sports betting operations, and only it
   knows the names and assets of their owners.
        And under legislation passed earlier this year, Antigua has been
   charging just $100,000 a year for an Internet casino license that
   offers a similar promise of minimum regulation, maximum anonymity and
   tax-free profit.
        But all that may soon change.
        The "Interbet" boom comes amid a series of recent corruption and
   fraud scandals here, the biggest involving the collapse of the world's
   first Internet bank. From a base in Antigua and with the promise of
   "utmost privacy," two Russians allegedly used the Web to bilk wealthy
   customers in the United States and elsewhere out of tens of millions
   of dollars before closing the bank and fleeing last month.
        The virtual casino boom also comes at a time when off-island
   critics, among them U.S. law enforcement agencies and the State
   Department, say Antigua's loose regulatory track record and its
   secrecy laws have amounted to a recipe for disaster. Together, they
   offer organized crime rings and international drug cartels a haven to
   "wash" billions in illicit profits through Antiguan offshore
   businesses.
        "Antigua's offshore banking sector--established in the mid-1980s
   with only limited regulation--expanded rapidly in recent years. . . .
   Unfortunately, inadequate regulation and vetting led to a surge in
   questionable banking operations--a number with alleged links to
   Russian criminal elements," declared the State Department's most
   recent report on the international narcotics and money-laundering
   trades, issued in March.
        "The growing potential for money laundering has been an
   increasing concern of both the U.S. and Antiguan governments," the
   report added.
        The advent of Internet casino gambling here merely ups the ante
   for international agencies attempting to prevent global money
   laundering and computer fraud in an era when criminal technology is
   fast eclipsing the tools of law enforcement.
        The State Department specifically cited Antigua's Internet
   banking and casino industries--"all with a similar lack of effective
   regulation"--as cause for concern.
        The U.S. report carefully praised Antiguan Prime Minister Lester
   Bird for tough new laws against money laundering passed in December
   and for his personal vow to crack down on the island's booming
   drug-transshipment trade. His government also is introducing tougher
   regulation of all offshore operations, the State Department noted.
        The few owners of virtual casinos in Antigua who agreed to be
   interviewed by The Times asserted that they welcome the new
   regulations, insisting that their operations are not only legal and
   honest but also state of the art.
        American Bill Scott, who moved his offshore sports betting
   operation to Antigua from the nearby island of St. Martin two years
   ago, said his Intercasino Web site was a natural next step for his
   parent company, World Wide Tele Sports.
        Located in the heart of St. John's, the nation's capital--atop a
   modern five-story, glass-and-marble building that most Antiguans think
   houses a computer school--Scott's operation handles millions of
   dollars in U.S. sports bets via 800 numbers under a separate Antiguan
   gaming license, he says.
        Scott says he was drawn to Antigua by the efficient phone system
   and, of course, the fact that gambling is legal here in a tax haven
   where confidentiality reigns and where even the Internet casinos are
   not viewed askance.
        Surrounded by dozens of computer stations where young Antiguans
   in headsets were taking sports bets on every conceivable contest one
   recent Sunday afternoon, Scott said business in his new Internet
   casino--located in a tiny corner of an adjacent office--is so good
   that he plans to open two more this week.
        "It's like Vegas. If you lose in one casino, you can go down the
   street to another," he said.
        To play at an Internet casino, gamblers access a casino site on
   the World Wide Web through their personal computers, establish an
   account with a credit card or money order and collect their virtual
   "chips." The computer program ushers them into a full-color,
   multidimensional casino that looks remarkably similar to those in Las
   Vegas, and they can gamble at the table of their choice.
        Given that it is an industry where only the customers' credit
   cards and money orders are real--risked against software and humans
   they never see--Scott acknowledged that Antigua's latest cyber-craze
   is ripe for fraud. But he said his casino uses the latest technology
   from two Canadian computer scientists, along with the older technology
   of random number generator chips, to ensure the fairest game around.
        Developed by the directors of Toronto-based Crytologic, which is
   publicly traded in Canada, Scott's casino software uses banking and
   encryption technology to, as he puts it, "convert real money into
   virtual cash" quickly and safely. And all winners, he said, are paid
   in a day.
        Although Scott said he welcomed the "big package of new
   regulations" that the Antiguan government recently sent him as key to
   protecting the image of the new industry, he added, "I don't think
   anybody has the knowledge of how to regulate this technology."
        And that, U.S. officials say, is especially true in Antigua,
   where the cash-strapped government has few resources and, critics say,
   little resolve to become more open.
        "This island is operated like a lodge. It's like a secret
   society," said Winston Derrick, who publishes Antigua's only
   independent newspaper. "You have to fight and fight for information."
        The government's annual expenditures, for example, are published,
   but years after the money is spent--a deliberate effort to minimize
   public interest and scrutiny, Derrick said. He added that police
   officials say even the most basic crime report is confidential.
        Although the government permits Derrick to publish his feisty
   Daily Observer, he and his brother were arrested when they started the
   island's first independent radio station last December. The case is
   still in court, and the station has not reopened.
        The prospect of prison also looms for Leonard Tim Hector if the
   opposition leader and publisher writes another word about the island's
   latest scandal--this one involving the prime minister and his
   family--in Hector's biweekly, the Outlet.
        Bird, whose family has controlled Antigua's power and politics
   for half a century, won an injunction against Hector after the
   opposition leader published stories attacking the premier for alleged
   corruption. One quoted a Venezuelan businessman, who was convicted of
   cocaine trafficking along with one of Bird's brothers two years ago,
   as saying that the premier took a $1-million bribe from Colombia's
   Cali cartel to permit drug transshipments through Antigua--a charge
   Bird flatly denies.
        Hector said he is undecided about whether to risk what would be
   his 12th prison term here by publishing more of the Venezuelan's
   accusations. But the injunction has not stopped him from sharply
   criticizing Bird's government for its policies toward offshore
   business and its lax regulation. He blamed those factors for the
   recent Internet bank debacle and said they invite similar abuse in the
   virtual casino industry.
        "They simply do not intend to regulate these new Internet
   casinos," Hector said in a recent interview. "The prime minister
   doesn't see that in his best interest."
        None of the few government officials who oversee the new
   cyber-casino trade along with all other offshore businesses on the
   island could be reached for comment.
        In the aftermath of the Internet bank collapse, however, the
   official Antigua & Barbuda Government Internet Web page has posted the
   new offshore rules and regulations for closer inspection.
        But a look at the rise and fall of the European Union Bank, which
   billed itself as the world's first full-service Internet bank, helps
   explain why U.S. officials are viewing Antigua's latest cyber-boom
   with concern.
        Privately, many of those officials said the Antiguan government
   should have been suspicious of the bank's operations long before it
   closed its only door in early August, leaving tens of millions of
   dollars in deposits missing.
        The Bank of England grew suspicious of the bank in October. It
   publicly warned investors that the bank was offering unrealistically
   high interest rates in an unsecured environment that is not policed.
        After a similar alert from U.S. banking officials in April, the
   state of Idaho issued a cease-and-desist order against the bank,
   barring it from offering its services to Internet customers in the
   state.
        But it wasn't until the day the bank shut down that Antigua's new
   Office of National Drugs and Money Laundering Policy issued an
   official "fraud alert," which opposition publisher Hector called
   "closing the stable door after both thieves and horses have bolted."
        Jane Rodriguez, Bill Scott's systems administrator--who set up
   the Intercasino Web site--concluded: "If the government wants the
   revenue to continue to flow, they know they have got to make an effort
   to control it."
   
   [8]Search the archives of the Los Angeles Times for similar stories.
   You will not be charged to look for stories, only to retrieve one.
   
   Copyright Los Angeles Times
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References

   1. http://www.latimes.com/
   2. http://www.latimes.com/GIFS/HEADERS/hfrontpg.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000084367.html#secmap
   4. http://www.latimes.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=73&AdID=404&URL=http://www.leadingladies.com
   5. mailto:Mark.Fineman at latimes.com
   6. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000084295.html
   7. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/index.htm
   8. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/ARCHIVES/simple.htm?bot
   9. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/t000084295.html
  10. http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/FRONT/index.htm






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sun Sep 21 21:14:21 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:14:21 +0800
Subject: Trac[k]ing the Successful Drug User
Message-ID: <199709220406.AAA06014@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




   [1][Internet news from Wired News. Read the latest Internet news
   stories, scan technology news headlines. Wired News also provides
   cyber-culture and political news about the wired world]
   []
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   []
   [7][Back] Tracking the 'Successful' Drug User
   by [8]Steve Silberman 
   6:05pm  19.Sep.97.PDT If you fired up a bowl of Humboldt's finest to
   unwind last night, and still made it to the PTA meeting and your
   Fortune 500 job this morning, there's a new survey of recreational
   drug use on the Web that is targeting you.
   
   The survey, called [9]Drugnet, aims to track patterns of drug
   consumption among what researcher Tom Nicholson calls "the largest
   population of drug users in America - people who use drugs in a
   controlled, limited way, whose central focus is not drugs, but their
   families, friends and communities."
   
   By deploying their questionnaire on the Web, the researchers are
   hoping to use the relative anonymity of the Net to access a "hidden
   population" of drug users who would be disinclined to give accurate
   reports of illegal use to face-to-face interviewers, Nicholson says.
   
   Drugnet researcher John White, who, like Nicholson, is a professor of
   public health at Western Kentucky University, adds that the study aims
   to fill a gap in the available research literature created by the fact
   that many published studies focus on drug users who are in rehab or
   are students. In an era when national drug policy is based on
   prohibition and interdiction, says White, "It's an open secret that
   successful people do these drugs, but no one talks about it... There's
   a myth that all drug use is abuse."
   
   The third co-author of the study, David Duncan, author of the textbook
   Drugs and the Whole Person, admits that the group is being "really
   experimental" by drawing its respondents from the Net. While some
   studies in the past have relied on newspaper ads or word of mouth to
   cast a net around their sample population, the authors of Drugnet are
   using a modern, if crude, way of marshaling eyeballs to their site:
   spamming mailing lists and Usenet newsgroups. (The group's post to
   rec.antiques launched a thread about collecting 19th century drug
   paraphernalia.)
   
   The advantage of tapping the Net as a sample, Duncan claims, is that
   the online world is skewed toward a well-educated, employed,
   higher-income population - the very stratum of "successful" users the
   study is intended to reach.
   
   Contrary to media stereotypes of drug users as dysfunctional misfits,
   when the researchers conducted a pilot study for two weeks last
   November, they found their sample of 276 users were "a little more
   socially involved than the average American," Duncan observes - "more
   likely to vote regularly, more likely to be politically active, and
   they read more." And the respondents were "a close match to population
   norms" on a scale of social functioning used by the National Center of
   Health Statistics called the General Well-Being Schedule, he says.
   
   About a quarter of the respondents said they used LSD, with several
   citing "spiritual exploration" as a reason for their consumption of
   the drug. "It's a well-known fact that hallucinogens can be used as a
   religious, life-changing experience," says White. "People do it, but
   they feel they can't really talk about it in an atmosphere of
   non-charged discourse."
   
   Contributing to the "charge" around that discourse is White House drug
   czar Barry McCaffrey "spreading the dogma" of the Just Say No approach
   to drug education "as thick as he can," Duncan says, adding that
   studies like Drugnet have been discouraged because "it doesn't help
   you to get grants to go against the mainstream of thought."
   
   Each year, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services
   Administration releases a widely-referenced report called the
   [10]National Household Survey on Drug Abuse. Joe Gfroerer of the
   agency's Office of Applied Studies says that the study uses
   "self-administered answer sheets," returned to the interviewers in
   sealed envelopes, for the sections of the survey concerned with
   illegal drug use. Though Gfroerer admits that the survey is prone to
   "underreporting" - especially of "hard-core use" of drugs like heroin
   - he disputes the researchers' claim that the Internet is the best way
   to get a representative sample and accurate reporting of drug use.
   
   "I'm not sure that people would feel more secure reporting sensitive
   data over the Internet," Gfroerer says. "The problem with the Net is,
   you're responding to people you can't see, and you have no idea if the
   study is legitimate. We send a representative to people's homes who
   show identification and explain the significance of the study."
   
   He did say, however, that if the study was "controlled properly," you
   could get a "very large sample" of valuable data.
   
   The researchers admit that some Web surfers have expressed
   reservations about answering queries about illegal activities over the
   Net. As an extra security measure, survey instructions urge
   respondents to access the questionnaire via [11]the Anonymizer. White
   says that the research team is presently applying for a grant to
   purchase a secure server, for an enlarged version of Drugnet that
   could extend for years.
   
   "This is just the beginning of this study," says Nicholson. "We're
   looking at the future."
   Related Wired Links:
   [12]Taking on the 'Culture of Prohibition'
   3.Jun.97
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References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#masthead.map
   2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#nav1.map
   3. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10010/http://stocks.wired.com/
   4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#nav2.map
   5. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10012/http://www.wired.com/wired/
   6. http://www.wired.com/news/download/email.cgi
   7. http://www.wired.com/news/news/top_stories/
   8. mailto:digaman at wired.com
   9. http://wkuweb1.wku.edu/~drugnet
  10. http://www.samhsa.gov/oas/nhsda/pe1996/httoc.htm
  11. http://www.anonymizer.com/
  12. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/4936.html
  13. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10018/http://www.newsbot.com/
  14. http://www.wired.com/news/news/top_stories/
  15. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#navstrip.map
  16. http://www.wired.com/news/rantrave.html
  17. mailto:tips at wired.com
  18. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
  19. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html#nav3.map
  20. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=6&RunID=147&AdID=763&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.sap.com%2Fteamsap%2Findex.htm
  21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html
  22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7023.html
  23. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7055.html
  24. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6998.html
  25. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6992.html
  26. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6986.html
  27. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/7018.html
  28. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/6775.html
  29. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=6&RunID=147&AdID=763&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.sap.com%2Fteamsap%2Findex.htm






From declan at well.com  Sun Sep 21 21:23:58 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:23:58 +0800
Subject: Rep. Loretta Sanchez Hits Crypto Controls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970921022246.00895f40@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 22:22 -0400 9/20/97, John Young wrote:
>Budget Officefor implementing SAFE. However, as far as
>I can tell, the estimate does not include the cost of a GAK
>system, and covers only the cost of export controls. Thus,
>it appears to be vastly misleading.

Those were the earlier estimates, based on legislation that did not include
mandatory GAK. I wrote about the latest CBO estimate, based on mandatory
GAK, in this week's Time Magazine.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Washington Correspondent, The Netly News Network, http://netlynews.com/
Reporter, Time Magazine, http://time.com/







From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Sun Sep 21 21:54:14 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:54:14 +0800
Subject: FBI vs Silicon Valley: Guess Who's Winning?
Message-ID: <199709220405.AAA05986@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




    [1]The most expandable handheld PC just got bigger. [2]Click here to
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              THE FBI VS. SILICON VALLEY: GUESS WHO'S WINNING
                                      
   Just a few weeks ago, it looked as if High-Tech Land was near victory
      in a protracted war with Washington. Its objective: relax export
    controls on software and hardware that encrypt into unbreakable code
         everything from corporate secrets to personal diaries. An
    industry-backed bill to ease the curbs, pushed by Representative Bob
        Goodlatte (R-Va.), was sailing through key House committees.
                                      
   But with the doggedness of a gumshoe, Federal Bureau of Investigation
     Director Louis J. Freeh has handed the techies a stunning setback.
   Raising the specter of pedophiles, drug dealers, and terrorists hiding
      their dirty secrets in electronic code, Freeh has been pressing
       Congress to go beyond export controls and impose unprecedented
           restraints on encrypted products in the U.S., as well.
                                      
   He's winning. On Sept. 9, the House National Security Committee gutted
    the Goodlatte bill's provisions liberalizing encryption exports. Two
    days later, the House Intelligence Committee added domestic controls
   that guarantee law enforcement officials access to coded information.
    Curbs are vital so ''we do not plow into the Information Age having
       weakened our ability to protect the national security,'' says
                Committee Chairman Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.).
                                      
    Capitol Hill's about-face has high-tech execs and civil libertarians
      aghast. The issue has united the likes of Microsoft, Intel, auto
    makers, and phone companies with the American Civil Liberties Union
                  and religious broadcaster Pat Robertson.
                                      
    VIOLATING PRIVACY? They see Big Brother not only hampering commerce
   but also violating rights to privacy and free speech. Freeh's plan to
     guarantee police access to decoding ''keys'' would be technically
     impossible or hugely expensive, says Microsoft Corp. lobbyist Jack
   Krumholtz. ''We risk impeding the growth of electronic commerce,'' he
     warns. Adds Rhett Dawson, president of the Information Technology
      Industry Council, which represents computer producers and users:
    ''There is a sense on the Hill that this is a good time to run over
            Fourth Amendment'' limits on searches and seizures.
                                      
      Freeh's proposal would require everyone who encrypts data to use
      technology that permits law enforcers to break the code. In one
     approach, company or personal records would be encrypted in easily
     breakable code--or the decoding keys would be held by a designated
    party, such as a central repository in a company. Police could then
    get a court order and obtain the keys without the users' knowledge.
   ''Not only does the government have the right to break down your door,
   but your door can't be stronger than their battering ram--or you must
    leave a key at the police station,'' fumes Stephen D. Crocker, chief
     technology officer at Cybercash Inc. It's a dramatic expansion of
      police wiretap power, warns Donald Haines of the ACLU. ''It puts
                            everyone at risk.''
                                      
   Freeh counters that a world in which criminals have unbreakable codes
   poses a real threat to law enforcement. That argument has swayed many
                lawmakers, who fear appearing soft on crime.
                                      
      Just a few years ago, the campaign to curb encryption was waged
   largely by the super-secret National Security Agency. It aimed to keep
     state-of-the-art products out of the hands of foreign terrorists.
     Since the U.S. was the world leader in data-scrambling technology,
    that meant extending cold war export controls. ''It would have been
   very difficult for an agency no one ever heard of to fight Bill Gates
      and the entire software and hardware industry,'' says Washington
     attorney and former NSA official Stewart A. Baker. ''Freeh can.''
                                      
   Stung by their sudden defeat, industry and civil liberties groups are
     holding emergency meetings to plan an all-court press. Their first
     goal: prevent the House Commerce Committee, next in line to take a
   crack at the Goodlatte bill, from also adding domestic controls. After
       Commerce votes in September, lobbying will shift to the Rules
   Committee, which must sort out several radically different versions of
    the legislation and send one along for a vote. The coalition is also
              fighting a strict encryption bill in the Senate.
                                      
   Meanwhile, the industry is trying to figure out where the White House
   stands. Vice-President Al Gore and Commerce Under Secretary William A.
     Reinsch, who oversees export policy, say the Administration still
   doesn't support mandatory domestic curbs--and the FBI chief is merely
    expressing his own views. Opponents don't completely buy that. Freeh
       may be out on his own, but he's clearly got the backing of the
   Administration, says Rebecca Gould of the Business Software Alliance.
           ''There's no doubt there's been a change in policy.''
                                      
   The likely outcome: a tactical retreat by industry to avoid an all-out
     rout. The techies have long rejected a compromise, believing they
   would prevail. Now, pressure from the coalition of business and civil
     libertarians will probably prevent Congress from imposing domestic
     controls. But the price will be living with a modified version of
     export controls. ''For once, they are in a position where they may
   have to negotiate,'' says Reinsch. The electronic wizards seem to have
           met their match in a Washington cop named Louis Freeh.
                                      
                           EDITED BY OWEN ULLMANN
                               By John Carey
                                      
                                  Press __
            for more information from Business Week's Archive*.
                                      
     *There's no charge to see this list of stories. A small payment is
         required only if you decide to view any specific article.
                                      
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                   Updated Sept. 18, 1997 by bwwebmaster
   Copyright 1997, by The McGraw-Hill Companies Inc. All rights reserved.
                              [22]Terms of Use

References

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   3. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
   4. http://www.businessweek.com/1997/39/970929.htm
   5. http://www.businessweek.com/1997/39/970929.htm
   6. http://www.businessweek.com/1997/39/970929.htm
   7. http://www.businessweek.com/register.htm
   8. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
   9. http://www.businessweek.com/contents.htm
  10. http://www.businessweek.com/bwplus.htm
  11. http://www.businessweek.com/today.htm
  12. http://www.businessweek.com/search.htm
  13. http://www.businessweek.com/contact.htm
  14. http://www.businessweek.com/register.htm
  15. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
  16. http://www.businessweek.com/contents.htm
  17. http://www.businessweek.com/bwplus.htm
  18. http://www.businessweek.com/today.htm
  19. http://www.businessweek.com/search.htm
  20. http://www.businessweek.com/contact.htm
  21. http://www.businessweek.com/index.html
  22. http://www.businessweek.com/copyrt.htm






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 21 22:56:48 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:56:48 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199709220545.AAA01492@smoke.suba.com>



> Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
> too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
> many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?

	Pay someone to write easy to use interfaces to the crypto libraries
already out there. 

	






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 21 23:17:44 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:17:44 +0800
Subject: Tim May on "The People"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709220608.BAA01580@smoke.suba.com>



> The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to
> excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote.  Somehow, even though we've
> had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse
> without stop.

	"even though", or "because"?






From memory at wheeler.promolinx.com  Mon Sep 22 14:20:57 1997
From: memory at wheeler.promolinx.com (Need More Memory?)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:20:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Memory - 32Megs - $99
Message-ID: <199709222121.PAA21452@wheeler.promolinx.com>


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From root at linux.nycmetro.com  Sun Sep 21 23:27:59 1997
From: root at linux.nycmetro.com (root)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:59 +0800
Subject: irs_1.html
Message-ID: <199709220214.CAA00309@linux.nycmetro.com>




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: U.S., Japan Face Off on Trade at G7 Meeting
   Next Story: Clinton Warns He Will Veto Education Bills
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Sunday September 21 4:40 AM EDT 
   
Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out

   By Tabassum Zakaria
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Senate Finance Committee is set to present
   the results of a six-month probe into the Internal Revenue Service
   which found a quota system that rewarded agents who brought in the
   cash.
   
   The committee, chaired by Delaware Republican Sen. William Roth, will
   hold three days of hearings next week intended to take a look at the
   tax collection agency from the inside out.
   
   The atmosphere will have a touch of cloak-and-dagger with one panel of
   IRS agents testifying behind a screen to keep their identities secret,
   some using voice distorting equipment. Extra metal detectors will be
   set up outside the hearing room.
   
   The committee investigation began in February after being allotted
   $250,000 for a year to conduct the review. Investigators received
   about 1,000 telephone calls, letters and e-mails from taxpayers and
   IRS agents, and four cases will be presented at the hearings Sept.
   23-25.
   
   "These people have horrendous power, granted by (Congress)...it's
   legitimate, but that's a big amount of power," a committee source, who
   spoke on condition of anonymity, said.
   
   "To be able to take a residence on nothing more than a couple of
   signatures," the source said, referring to the IRS's authority to
   confiscate cars, homes and other property from people who owe taxes.
   
   An IRS spokesman said the agency carried out the law as written by
   Congress and that if mistakes were made, it tried to correct them.
   
   "We hope that these hearings will constitute a fair and open review of
   how the IRS conducts itself in using the tools that the Congress has
   given us," the IRS spokesman said.
   
   "We deal with millions of taxpayers every year, and in the vast
   majority of cases taxpayers feel that they are treated courteously and
   professionally," he added.
   
   In contrast, the investigation found many taxpayers complained the IRS
   did not listen to them and assumed they were guilty and wanted to
   cheat on their tax returns.
   
   The investigation found an apparent quota system in which agents were
   asked to bring in a certain amount of dollars when they went out to
   collect taxes, which led to some stretching the truth on what people
   owed, the committee source said.
   
   Agents were rewarded in their careers if they closed a certain number
   of cases or filed a certain number of levies or liens. That offered
   incentives for agents to close out the easiest cases which tended to
   be people with fewer resources to defend themselves, the committee
   source said.
   
   Another "tip of the iceberg" finding was that some agents used
   falsified credentials so their real names would not be revealed in
   face-to-face situations. Those types of credentials are only supposed
   to be used by the Treasury Department's criminal division, the
   committee source said.
   
   "One of the things that Senator Roth has wanted to emphasize is that
   there are good employees at the IRS," Ginny Flynn, spokeswoman for
   Roth, said.
   
   In fiscal 1996, the IRS received almost 119 million individual tax
   returns and collected almost $1.4 trillion in taxes. At the end of
   last year, there were 15,153 revenue agents who conducted examinations
   and 7,472 revenue officers who did collections.
   
   Roth did not want the hearings to be used for political fodder --
   "this is not a reflection of the administration, this is a cultural
   problem," Flynn said.
   
   However other Republican lawmakers have been using attention on the
   IRS to make political points.
   
   Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, as chairman of the National
   Republican Senatorial Committee which raises funds, sent letters
   seeking contributions which said: "...consider this: your tax dollars
   are paying for seminars that teach IRS agents to treat you like a
   criminal!"
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out - Sat Sep 20 11:36 pm
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From maria at linux.nycmetro.com  Sun Sep 21 23:37:56 1997
From: maria at linux.nycmetro.com (maria at linux.nycmetro.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:37:56 +0800
Subject: irs_1.html
Message-ID: <199709220631.CAA21488@linux.nycmetro.com>




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: U.S., Japan Face Off on Trade at G7 Meeting
   Next Story: Clinton Warns He Will Veto Education Bills
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Sunday September 21 4:40 AM EDT 
   
Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out

   By Tabassum Zakaria
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Senate Finance Committee is set to present
   the results of a six-month probe into the Internal Revenue Service
   which found a quota system that rewarded agents who brought in the
   cash.
   
   The committee, chaired by Delaware Republican Sen. William Roth, will
   hold three days of hearings next week intended to take a look at the
   tax collection agency from the inside out.
   
   The atmosphere will have a touch of cloak-and-dagger with one panel of
   IRS agents testifying behind a screen to keep their identities secret,
   some using voice distorting equipment. Extra metal detectors will be
   set up outside the hearing room.
   
   The committee investigation began in February after being allotted
   $250,000 for a year to conduct the review. Investigators received
   about 1,000 telephone calls, letters and e-mails from taxpayers and
   IRS agents, and four cases will be presented at the hearings Sept.
   23-25.
   
   "These people have horrendous power, granted by (Congress)...it's
   legitimate, but that's a big amount of power," a committee source, who
   spoke on condition of anonymity, said.
   
   "To be able to take a residence on nothing more than a couple of
   signatures," the source said, referring to the IRS's authority to
   confiscate cars, homes and other property from people who owe taxes.
   
   An IRS spokesman said the agency carried out the law as written by
   Congress and that if mistakes were made, it tried to correct them.
   
   "We hope that these hearings will constitute a fair and open review of
   how the IRS conducts itself in using the tools that the Congress has
   given us," the IRS spokesman said.
   
   "We deal with millions of taxpayers every year, and in the vast
   majority of cases taxpayers feel that they are treated courteously and
   professionally," he added.
   
   In contrast, the investigation found many taxpayers complained the IRS
   did not listen to them and assumed they were guilty and wanted to
   cheat on their tax returns.
   
   The investigation found an apparent quota system in which agents were
   asked to bring in a certain amount of dollars when they went out to
   collect taxes, which led to some stretching the truth on what people
   owed, the committee source said.
   
   Agents were rewarded in their careers if they closed a certain number
   of cases or filed a certain number of levies or liens. That offered
   incentives for agents to close out the easiest cases which tended to
   be people with fewer resources to defend themselves, the committee
   source said.
   
   Another "tip of the iceberg" finding was that some agents used
   falsified credentials so their real names would not be revealed in
   face-to-face situations. Those types of credentials are only supposed
   to be used by the Treasury Department's criminal division, the
   committee source said.
   
   "One of the things that Senator Roth has wanted to emphasize is that
   there are good employees at the IRS," Ginny Flynn, spokeswoman for
   Roth, said.
   
   In fiscal 1996, the IRS received almost 119 million individual tax
   returns and collected almost $1.4 trillion in taxes. At the end of
   last year, there were 15,153 revenue agents who conducted examinations
   and 7,472 revenue officers who did collections.
   
   Roth did not want the hearings to be used for political fodder --
   "this is not a reflection of the administration, this is a cultural
   problem," Flynn said.
   
   However other Republican lawmakers have been using attention on the
   IRS to make political points.
   
   Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, as chairman of the National
   Republican Senatorial Committee which raises funds, sent letters
   seeking contributions which said: "...consider this: your tax dollars
   are paying for seminars that teach IRS agents to treat you like a
   criminal!"
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Senate Panel to Examine IRS Inside Out - Sat Sep 20 11:36 pm
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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   Previous Story: U.S., Japan Face Off on Trade at G7 Meeting
   Next Story: Clinton Warns He Will Veto Education Bills
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    Questions or Comments






From snow at smoke.suba.com  Sun Sep 21 23:38:46 1997
From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:38:46 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970915104030.00b06e90@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <199709220604.BAA01568@smoke.suba.com>



> At 10:09 AM 9/15/97 -0700, sameer wrote:
> >> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
> >> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
> >	Sell code.
> Marketing.
> 
> It's not enough to have a great product -- you must also have great

	Or, more correctly, you don't have to have a great product, it
just has to _seem_ easy to use (Win95)--and you must also have great

> marketing. In the case of memewar, you need to get people to want to use
> something, enough to change their habits, even slightly. The less they need
> to change, relative to the benefit they get, the better.






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Sun Sep 21 23:51:14 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:51:14 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3420afc6.108774731@mail.geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970921234248.04605528@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 12:45 AM 9/22/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>
>> Ok, we write code.  But as James S. Tyre pointed out, if the code is
>> too difficult to use it will not be.  And as Declan pointed out
>> many/most people will not use the crypto if they must think about it.
>> Writing the code is no longer enough.  The code must be usable by the
>> sheeple to work.  How do we do that?
>
>	Pay someone to write easy to use interfaces to the crypto libraries
>already out there. 

The code also has to do some good.  Currently there are some gaping holes
that I have not seen anyone cover very well.  (At least not in a way that
most users could actually use.)

Take, for example, the average home user.  They will most likely be running
Windows 95 or Windows 3.1 on a PC (486 or pentagram processor).  They
connect to the net via TCP/IP over a dialup link.

Now since Louie "tap'em all, let the FBI sort em out" Freeh may or may not
have that 1% of the phone switch tapped, the part that travels over the
phone is vulnerable.  (Microsoft was working on an SSL enabled winsock.dll,
but it has been dropped.  (Any ideas why? *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
*say no more*))

Even if the person uses PGP for all their mail, the sites they surf, the
ftp sites they visit, and all the addresses they send mail to will still be
visible to the prying eyes of anyone who has the resources to tap the phone
line.

This is something that needs to be covered.  How about an ssl enabled PPP
daemon, as well as the winsock layer to support it? Then you have to get
ISPs to use it. 

IPSec does not (as far as I can tell) resolve this problem, not does it
look like an option for the home user.  (From what I have seen (and I may
be wrong), the key distribution is tied to IP address.  What about dynamic
IP addresses?)  Are there any of the IP encryption key exchange protocols
that deal with dynamic IP?  (And/or have a windows based client?)

SSH is a possible option, but it requires a fair bit of knowledge and
another site to connect to that has not been compromised and where you have
a shell account.  (Most ISPs do not support SSH.  Some do not give you a
shell account.) There is also the possibility of apps not talking through
the IP tunnel and revealing unintended information.

Mail is another hole.  Eudora now distributes PGP 5.0 with the latest
version.  (This version does not do RSA keys. You can get the plug in to do
those keys from PGP inc.)  This is helpful, but there are many other
plug-ins that need to be written.  Support for remailers is lacking.
Windows based code for Mixmaster is also a needed thing.  A good interface
would help immensely.  (Private Idaho was a big step in the right
direction. Integrated with a remailer people already use would be another
big step forward.)

I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From pcassidy at world.std.com  Mon Sep 22 00:12:22 1997
From: pcassidy at world.std.com (Peter F Cassidy)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:12:22 +0800
Subject: On the trail of David Aarons
Message-ID: 





Fellas,

Don't flame me for asking. It's just that in following this guy I cannot
get very close to those who have met with the crypto czar - except in
Japaan where sources have gotten me pretty close to the man's activities.
. . 

I'm trying to finish up the research for a piece on Aaron who has been
meeeting with Western Allies to get them on-board the key escrow program
that the Clinton Administration has mindelessly pursued since the first
week of its reign. 

Aaron has been all over, visiting UK, Japan and Germany and Australia -
meeting different kinds of receptions, most visibly successful in Japan. 

All I am asking here is if anyone has contacts at important labs or
government ministries where Aaron might have been received. I've got to
have my ducks lined up before I interview him.


Regards,

Peter Cassidy for
WIRED Magazine













From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 22 00:55:48 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:48 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 



At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:

>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
>information about them.
>

I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
side" believes no such thing.


--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From weidai at eskimo.com  Mon Sep 22 03:27:55 1997
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:27:55 +0800
Subject: encouraging digital pseudonyms
Message-ID: 



One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
with True Names). I think the main reason why pseudonyms are not used more
widely is the lack of support on client software, especially on the
receiver side. When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
pseudonym.

Of course the long-term solution is to get native pseudonym support on the
client software, but in the mean time there is a fairly simple workaround
if someone wants to volunteer a modest amount of resources. That person
should set up a mailing list that simply resends cypherpunk traffic that
are signed by pseudonyms. To help filtering, the pseudonym's key hash
should be prepended to the subject.

When this is done, those of us who want to can filter out everything sent
by remailers to the cypherpunks mailing list and subscribe to the proposed
service. If enough of us do this, it should motivate anonymous senders to
set up persistent identities. If the trouble of generating new pseudonyms
is not enough to discourage the anonymous junk, the proposed service can
charge ecash or hashcash either per pseudonym or per email.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep 22 03:45:25 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:45:25 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199709221038.MAA26800@basement.replay.com>



Tim May wrote:

> At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
> 
> >One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
> >is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
> >information about them.
> >
> 
> I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
> side" believes no such thing.


We do, we just like to phrase it differently.  Such as "if you aren't using
remailers, they're gathering information about you."


> The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Consider yourself informed that a third party has gathered the above
information about you.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 22 04:13:54 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:13:54 +0800
Subject: [URGENT] Blowfish
Message-ID: <598f41e9429856e4e84ca808fbaafef2@anon.efga.org>



Timmy C[rook] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
cross-ruminated.

         _______c___c
        /       /_  _\
       |       ((6)(6)) Timmy C[rook] May
       (  )_  __\\  //__
       o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)






From vipul at best.com  Mon Sep 22 04:31:31 1997
From: vipul at best.com (Vipul Ved Prakash)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:31:31 +0800
Subject: Flynt Daughter is pro CDA [fwd][news]
Message-ID: <199709221635.QAA00499@fountainhead.net>



*** Keep cyberporn from children, Flynt daughter says

Anti-pornography activist Tonya Flynt-Vega said Friday she was "very
disappointed" the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a law meant to keep
Internet smut away from children. Flynt-Vega, 32, daughter of Hustler
magazine founder Larry Flynt, said children tended to be much more
computer-literate than adults and were especially prone to "unwelcome
contacts" on the Internet. " ... I want there to be some laws
regulating that stuff. Don't put it in my face or my child's face,"
she said. The Supreme Court ruled June 26 that Congress violated
free-speech rights when it tried to curb smut on the Internet. For
story http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5031497-28e         

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul at best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces






From phelix at vallnet.com  Mon Sep 22 04:39:36 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:39:36 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
Message-ID: <3429560f.30622794@128.2.84.191>



On 22 Sep 1997 02:32:12 -0500, Alan  wrote:

>Mail is another hole.  Eudora now distributes PGP 5.0 with the latest
>version.  (This version does not do RSA keys. You can get the plug in to do
>those keys from PGP inc.)  This is helpful, but there are many other
>plug-ins that need to be written.  Support for remailers is lacking.
>Windows based code for Mixmaster is also a needed thing.  A good interface
>would help immensely.  (Private Idaho was a big step in the right
>direction. Integrated with a remailer people already use would be another
>big step forward.)
>

Agreed.  I think Remailer support could be a big opportunity.  People may
not understand/care-about encryption, digital signing, etc., but they
definitely understand the need for anonymity.

Question:  If a free remailer plugin for eudora is released, can the
remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
messages delivers.  What about spamming?  

Another Question:  Since such a plugin uses (has the hooks for) encryption,
would it be covered by ITAR?  (i'm asking because I'm seriously considering
making the eudora plugin)

Anyway, the remailer 'network' needs to be strengthened.  Right now,
Raph's pinging service (or whatever private idaho uses) is the only way
private idaho can tell which servers are up.  Attack this point, and
reliability when chaining remailers becomes uncertain.    Imagine a TLA
co-opting this service and altering the list to favor government friendly
remailers.

It also needs to be easier to set up a remailer.  I'd like to see the
software distributed in .deb and .rpm packages for Linux.  Once set up, the
remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
more automated it is, the better.



>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)

Private idaho needs to be rewritten (in Java possibly) to be simpler to
operate.  There should be one button to press to send a message without
messing with what type and which remailers to use; the program could choose
these things randomly (ok, it's not the best thing to do, but at least it's
easy to use).  It also should be updated to use pgp 5.0 (not exclusively,
of course).  If possible, also add support for the Eternity Service.

Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)

Is there any support for signed web pages?  Is this covered by SSL?










From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep 22 04:45:35 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:45:35 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Letter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970922112723.00823294@pop.pipeline.com>



We offer a recent letter from Jim Bell that describes
prison and his prospects:

   http://jya.com/jimbell4.htm

It is published against his wishes, maybe. Read the letter to
see the fear (or caginess) loss of freedom teaches.







From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 22 05:07:21 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:07:21 +0800
Subject: irs_1.html (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709221211.HAA15708@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: maria at linux.nycmetro.com
> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:31:12 -0400
> Subject: irs_1.html

>    "These people have horrendous power, granted by (Congress)...it's
>    legitimate, but that's a big amount of power," a committee source, who
>    spoke on condition of anonymity, said.
>    
>    "To be able to take a residence on nothing more than a couple of
>    signatures," the source said, referring to the IRS's authority to
>    confiscate cars, homes and other property from people who owe taxes.

>    An IRS spokesman said the agency carried out the law as written by
>    Congress and that if mistakes were made, it tried to correct them.

>    "We deal with millions of taxpayers every year, and in the vast
>    majority of cases taxpayers feel that they are treated courteously and
>    professionally," he added.

Talk about clueless....


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From declan at well.com  Mon Sep 22 06:01:15 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:01:15 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 



There is, I'm told by reliable sources, a forthcoming Cato Institute report
on electronic privacy that will help put this in perspective -- and
buttress my and Tim's position. Someone from the Competitive Enterprise
Institute, too, took this stance during a bunch of panels at the FTC June
privacy hearings that Will and I attended.

Simply put, you do not have any right to know when people are talking about
you behind their back. It happens all the time and, even though people may
not like it, it is a staple of society.

I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than happy to
gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut them up
through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
information being shared is digital.

-Declan


At 00:48 -0700 9/22/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>
>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
>>information about them.
>>
>
>I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
>side" believes no such thing.







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep 22 06:23:49 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:23:49 +0800
Subject: Your mail
Message-ID: <199709221313.PAA11287@basement.replay.com>



<---- Begin Forwarded Message ---->
Sorry to do this to you. This is a love chain letter.  Within 5 days you
>must send it to 10 other people.  On the 5th day a person you like will ask
>you out, or
>>tell you that  they love you.  If you do not send it you will have problems
>>in future relationships.  It has been going since 1877 and hasn't
>>stopped since.
>>
>>
>>Around the corner I have a friend,
>>> In this great city that has no end,
>>> Yet the days go by and weeks rush on,
>>> And before I know it, a year is gone.
>>> And I never see my old friends face,
>>> For life is a swift and terrible race,
>>> He knows I like him just as well,
>> As in the days when I rang his bell.
>>> And he rang mine
>>> if, we were younger then,
>>> And now we are busy, tired men.
>>> Tired of playing a foolish game,
>>> Tired of trying to make a name.
>>> "Tommorow" I say "I will call on Jim"
>>> "Just to show that I'm thinking of him."
>>> But tommorow comes and tommorow goes,
>>> And distance between us grows and grows.
>>> Around the corner!- yet miles away,
>>> "Here's a telegram sir"
>>> "Jim died today."
>>> And thats what we get and deserve in the end.
>>> Around the corner, a vanished friend.
>>>
>> Remember to always say what you mean.  If you love someone, tell them.
>Don't be afraid to express yourself.  Reach out and tell someone what they
>mean to you.   Beause when you decide that it is the right time, it might be
>too late.  Seize the day.  Never have regrets. And most importantly, stay
>close to your friends and family, for they have helped make you the person
>that you are today.
>>
>> Pass this along to your friends. It could make a difference.  The
>difference between doing all that you can or having regrets which may stay
>with you forever.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>*note* The more people that you send this to, the better luck you will have.
>>
>> "If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life", then let's all
>get wasted together and have the time of our lives."
>>
>>


<----  End Forwarded Message  ---->









From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Sep 22 07:04:47 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:04:47 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709221350.GAA30671@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 22 Sep 97 6:48:37 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        ******+*****    10:29  99.99%
nym      config at nym.alias.net             *+####+#####     1:02  99.98%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +++++-++*+++    30:09  99.86%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          +++++-++++++    39:28  99.85%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             #**#*-#**#*#    10:53  99.83%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.---__.# 16:36:54  99.67%
replay   remailer at replay.com              *+**** *****     4:33  99.64%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org         -----------   3:50:50  99.64%
neva     remailer at neva.org                +--* --- ---  3:48:40  99.08%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     ***** -*****  3:10:16  98.66%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net           ---- --+-+*  2:23:45  98.11%
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             --.-------    8:36:27  97.55%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                     _.-----.-  12:37:56  95.99%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de              -------  --   3:02:31  94.18%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                 -----         4:58:22  31.61%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 22 07:32:14 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:32:14 +0800
Subject: End-to-end cellular encryption needed - CDisk from Comverse Technology
Message-ID: <3ab277387c80cdaa7f82bfc0bf24e729@anon.efga.org>

This is just one commercial product that implements most of what CALEA
requires.  The great thing about market economies is that we'll obtain the
surveillance state at a competitive price.

======

Excerpts from "The CDisk Product Description", Reliable, Customized Solutions
for Intercepting Calls from Cellular Switches

Comverse's CDisk is a comprehensive digital audio system.  It intercepts
and captures call audio and data from cellular switches and distributes it to
designated Monitoring Centers where it is processed and archived.

In order to be effective, interception facilities for switches in cellular
networks must offer

* One system that supports all cellular networks.
* Target subscriber management.
* Access to all calls in which the target subscriber is a party.
* Coverage of all types of calls.
* Automatic collection of call data (Session Related Information - SRI),
  combined unambiguously into one conversation file.
* Strict security provisions.

CDisk meets the need with a mature, field-proven product

CDisk covers all cellular networks:

* Its field-proven interface connects with all major switches.
* Its open system supports multiple networks and Monitoring Centers.
* Its modular concept adapts simply to new standards and technologies.

With CDisk's target-subscriber management tools, authorized users can:

* Automatically process thousands of targets.
* Add, edit and delete targets from the list.
* Schedule start and end times, as well as define other conditions for
  interception.
* Seamlessly cover targets across multiple networks.
* For each target, define access rights for multiple Monitoring Centers,
  from organizations down to individual users.
* Define priority targets.

CDisk provides comprehensive call access by:

* Covering all types of calls including voice calls, data calls - voice band
  modem, facsimile calls, short message service (SMS), unrestricted data calls.
* Monitoring all types of call services, including call transfer,
  forward calls, diverted calls, conference or multi-party calls (CDisk
  accesses all parties involved.), call waiting.
* Processing mixed voice and data calls.
* Monitoring uncompleted and busy call attempts.
* Supporting call diversion supplementary services.
* Covering roaming visitors.

Automatic collection of the following data for each target subscriber's call
(Session Related Information):

* Equipment ID - IMEI.
* Called number, including cases of uncompleted calls (for MSISDN and IMSI).
* Specification of the type of call (voice, data, fax, or SMS).
* Conference call party numbers.
* Diverted call number.
* Target subscriber cell location - Location Area Identity (LAI) at call
  start and call termination.
* Date, time, and duration of call.
* Enabling users to listen to calls in real-time or in playback (after they
  are recorded).



-------------- next part --------------
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From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 22 07:48:09 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:48:09 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922103458.0377ca7c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 07:48 AM 9/22/97 +0000, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>
>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy 
battles
>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering 
"personal"
>>information about them.
>>
>
>I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, 
but "my
>side" believes no such thing.

Both sides, in this case, is pretty much everyone at the FTC 
roundtable last June. 

The one exception I recall is the position taken by the Competitive 
Enterprise Institute. The CEI took the position that no regulation at 
all was needed and that marketplace forces would police the Net. 
Their view, for better or worse, is not very visible elsewhere.

Another solution, of course, is a techno-arms race solution to 
privacy. That works for readers of this list, but that's not who the 
FTC worries about. Libertarians will, of course, shudder at the 
notion that they should.
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Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter at ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 22 07:54:32 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:54:32 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922104428.006977f4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than 
happy to
>gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut 
them up
>through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
>information being shared is digital.
>


That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
level.

I would like to go to those small-town folk of whom urban 
intellectuals write so eloquently and ask them what they would think 
of their neighbors posting all their gossip to a place where millions 
can read it. Something tells me they wouldn't see those two actions 
as one in the same. There is a qualitiative difference between the 
two.

That's about as far as I'm going on that one.

I'm sure Bernstein, DeFalco et al. will have clear reasons for why 
none of us should care less.




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Will Rodger                                           Voice: +1 202-408-7027 
Washington Bureau Chief                        Fax: +1 202-789-2036
Inter at ctive Week                    http://www.interactiveweek.com
A Ziff-Davis Publication            
PGP 5.0: 584D FD11 3035 0EC2 B35C AB16 D660 293F C7BE 3F62
       PGP 2.6.2: D83D 0095 299C 2505 25FA 93FE DDF6 9B5F






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Mon Sep 22 08:37:27 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:37:27 +0800
Subject: side effects of techno-arms-races considered beneficial
Message-ID: <199709221527.RAA06323@xs2.xs4all.nl>



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
"Will Rodger " typed:
>
> The one exception I recall is the position taken by the Competitive
> Enterprise Institute. The CEI took the position that no regulation at
> all was needed and that marketplace forces would police the Net.
> Their view, for better or worse, is not very visible elsewhere.
> 
> Another solution, of course, is a techno-arms race solution to
> privacy. That works for readers of this list, but that's not who the
> FTC worries about. Libertarians will, of course, shudder at the
> notion that they should.


Cypherpunks know the underlying math.  Cypherpunks have seen 
the future-- in the long run, privacy wins the techno-arms 
race (barring quantum computation etc.).  So if the battle goes
to the techno ground, we win, and everyone who values their 
privacy wins.  (_Not_ just the techie elite.  Tech comes to the
masses, too, including privacy tech.)


If the battle takes place in the Byzantine halls of power and 
opinion, then I'd say the outcome is anyone's guess.  See the
current U.S. legislative debacle.


* Creation of laws is likely to do more harm than good -- this
 is one reason to abjure legislation and lobbyism and work on 
 coding and distributing.


This much is already known to my readers.  I'd like to add 
another detail:  Techno arms races have positive side effects!
Ratings systems, reputations, markets, scripting languages, CPU
tech, distributed computing, information security and smart 
agents technologies which enhance our privacy tech, or which 
are enhanced by our privacy tech, or both.


* Even a _good_ law which _solves_ a problem interferes with 
 the development of technological solution to the problem.  A 
 solution which might have had broader applications.  This is 
 another reason to abjure such kludges.



Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Hacker

P.S.  Anybody remember that stupid phrase from Wired: "To hack
politics down to its component parts and fix it."?  Egh.  I'd 
sooner code a critical system in COBOL while stupid and/or 
malicious strangers edit my code and my development environment
without warning.  Which is to say:  I wouldn't try!

P.P.S.  Because "Techno arms races have positive side effects."
is why I like spam.  It forces people to learn about killfiles,
digital authentication, resource management, denial-of-service
attacks and suchlike.  Unless a law manages to silence the
offensive speakers and return the masses to their inflexible,
insecure environments.






From declan at well.com  Mon Sep 22 09:04:06 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:04:06 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970922104428.006977f4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 




On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote, quoting me:

> >I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than 
> happy to
> >gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut 
> them up
> >through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
> >information being shared is digital.

> That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
> half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
> level.

Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
violate?

And yes, some of the "half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books"
are misguided. Just as many argue laws against drugs, gambling, or
FCC rules prohibiting the broadcast of "indecent" material are also
unconstitutional -- and a waste of our police's time.

> I would like to go to those small-town folk of whom urban 
> intellectuals write so eloquently and ask them what they would think 
> of their neighbors posting all their gossip to a place where millions 
> can read it. Something tells me they wouldn't see those two actions 
> as one in the same. There is a qualitiative difference between the 
> two.

The problem is, I suspect, in drawing that line. Want to try your hand in
drawing a line outlining the scope of "obscenity" laws? Remember they
cover textual material in some states and comics in others. No? I didn't
think so. 

> That's about as far as I'm going on that one.
> 
> I'm sure Bernstein, DeFalco et al. will have clear reasons for why 
> none of us should care less.

I don't think the issue is whether or not individuals should "care" about
others talking about them behind their back. I think the question is how
to address it: through the force of law or not. I may not want to shut up
the Net-Nazis through the force of law (I would argue against it), but I
would certainly "care" what they say and speak out against it myself. 

Not all wrongs can be solved through the law.

-Declan






From Declan_McCullagh at timemagazine.com  Mon Sep 22 09:20:29 1997
From: Declan_McCullagh at timemagazine.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:20:29 +0800
Subject: What will it cost to let Big Brother watch?
Message-ID: 



[This story was scheduled for page 18 of this week's Time magazine, but got
cut at the last minute and replaced with a Diana investigation update.
Background: Previous CBO cost estimates released in May and July focused on
versions of SAFE that dealt only with exports. This estimate not only
covers the costs of operating snooperware systems; it predicts that some
products may drop crypto and users may abandon its use if such a
requirement exists. Enjoy. --Declan]

******

ENCRYPTION
What Will It Cost To Let Big Brother Watch?
By Declan McCullagh

High tech firms battling what they call an Orwellian
anti-privacy bill in Congress are challenging a new
government study. Last Friday the Congressional Budget
Office stuck a price tag on a bill that would ban the
manufacture of telephones, computers, and software
that the FBI can't easily monitor. The amount
consumers would pay: an estimated $200 million to $2
billion a year.

But technology groups say the true cost would be
astronomical. "It would be the greatest technological
challenge the U.S. software industry is facing today,
larger than the year 2000 problem. We don't know how
to do this," says Jon Englund of the Information
Technology Association of America. He says that since
the CBO study focuses on computer programs and not the
Internet, the true cost would be hundreds of billions
higher. A huge chunk of existing technology would have
to be redesigned, and plans to protect cyberspace from
eavesdroppers would be derailed.

That's an acceptable tradeoff, say the plan's backers.
"Organized crime, drug organizations, and terrorist
organizations have the ability to use encryption and
render law enforcement folks unable to have access,"
says Rep. Michael Oxley (R-Ohio), a backer of the
FBI's plan. The House Commerce committee is scheduled
to vote on Oxley's proposal on Thursday.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From 66399210 at compuserve.com  Tue Sep 23 00:48:24 1997
From: 66399210 at compuserve.com (66399210 at compuserve.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MAKE IT YOURSELF ACNE RECIPE
Message-ID: <>



Do you suffer from unsightly BLEMISHES, ACNE or ZITS, yech.  Or do you know
someone that suffers?  If yes, then you or your friends should try what I used
when I was in High School.  It really worked for me.  My friends and I had acne
but my mom made up this great Acne Remover and they were gone the next day.
WOW I thought and so did my friends who wanted it too.  They also wanted to
know how to make it, but I just gave them a bottle of Acne Remover and they
were happy.  So were the girls that we all dated.  The pimples usually went away
the next day, just in time for a date that weekend.  I couldn't believe my eyes or
should I say my face.  I held onto that recipe for years, thinking that someday
I'll manufacture it and sell it, but I never did.  Now you too can make it yourself.
Imagine not having to pay hundreds of dollars to the drug store for expensive
products when you can make a better product yourself right at home!  That's
what we did and it worked great for me.

OK, what's the cost?  A mere $19.95 for my fellow sufferers.  I could have
charged more for this, but I thought, help others like I was helped out by
my family.  Send $19.95 plus $1.00 for shipping and handling for a total of
$20.95 right away to:

Internet Marketing
22704 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 200
Woodland Hills, CA 91364

Include your email address and if you are in California, please add $1.51 for a total
of $22.46.

It worked so great for me that it's called "CLEAR UP."  Remember, once you have
the recipe for CLEAR UP, you can make it yourself forever!!!

Send for CLEAR UP right away and stop suffering.  You'll be happy you did.





From 66399210 at compuserve.com  Tue Sep 23 00:48:24 1997
From: 66399210 at compuserve.com (66399210 at compuserve.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MAKE IT YOURSELF ACNE RECIPE
Message-ID: <>



Do you suffer from unsightly BLEMISHES, ACNE or ZITS, yech.  Or do you know
someone that suffers?  If yes, then you or your friends should try what I used
when I was in High School.  It really worked for me.  My friends and I had acne
but my mom made up this great Acne Remover and they were gone the next day.
WOW I thought and so did my friends who wanted it too.  They also wanted to
know how to make it, but I just gave them a bottle of Acne Remover and they
were happy.  So were the girls that we all dated.  The pimples usually went away
the next day, just in time for a date that weekend.  I couldn't believe my eyes or
should I say my face.  I held onto that recipe for years, thinking that someday
I'll manufacture it and sell it, but I never did.  Now you too can make it yourself.
Imagine not having to pay hundreds of dollars to the drug store for expensive
products when you can make a better product yourself right at home!  That's
what we did and it worked great for me.

OK, what's the cost?  A mere $19.95 for my fellow sufferers.  I could have
charged more for this, but I thought, help others like I was helped out by
my family.  Send $19.95 plus $1.00 for shipping and handling for a total of
$20.95 right away to:

Internet Marketing
22704 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 200
Woodland Hills, CA 91364

Include your email address and if you are in California, please add $1.51 for a total
of $22.46.

It worked so great for me that it's called "CLEAR UP."  Remember, once you have
the recipe for CLEAR UP, you can make it yourself forever!!!

Send for CLEAR UP right away and stop suffering.  You'll be happy you did.





From lizard at dnai.com  Mon Sep 22 09:52:44 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:52:44 +0800
Subject: What will it cost to let Big Brother watch?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970922093831.00b4b320@dnai.com>



At 11:53 AM 9/22/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[This story was scheduled for page 18 of this week's Time magazine, but got
>cut at the last minute and replaced with a Diana investigation update.

I think you've managed to sum up everything wrong with the world in just
one sentence.






From tien at well.com  Mon Sep 22 10:05:43 1997
From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:05:43 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970920151414.006db534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 



What Tim and Declan said.

Historically, I think, third-party (3P) "notice" reflects concern about the
accuracy of files held by others and their accountability.  Much '74-era
privacy talk was about 3Ps like credit issuers making decisions about you
based on incorrect information.  Notice would help you see and correct the
files on you.  Look at the report done on personal privacy in the
information society commissioned for the Privacy Act.

These weren't then and aren't now idle concerns, but a means to an end --
"notice" -- may be being confused with an end.  I'd rather stop
"womb-to-tomb" dossiers than assure their accuracy.

IMHO "notice" of 3P info gathering misses the point.  The problems start
with first and second parties.  Remember, this is about notice for
*gathering* information, not publishing it.  That means notice even if you
never publish or use it.

If we're concerned about the gathering of personal information from public
records, for instance, why was that information collected in the first
place?

If because the gov't is regulating a transaction or relation, is that gov't
regulation necessary?  How much of the information is really needed?  How
much information does DMV need to issue a drivers' license?

Also, requiring third parties to give notice to first parties would raise
massive first amendment issues -- much of what we and the press do is
gather personal information.  What of the address books we all keep?

The constitutional problems would not exist, IMHO, if the gov't had to
notify us when it discloses our personal information.  The gov't is a major
information trafficker, both by extracting information directly, and by
requiring us to report information to 3Ps like banks, etc.

Lee

PS.  BTW, I am not a libertarian.


At 11:48 PM -0800 9/21/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:14 PM -0700 9/20/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>
>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy battles
>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering "personal"
>>information about them.
>>
>
>I don't know which two sides are the "both sides" you'r describing, but "my
>side" believes no such thing.
>
>
>--Tim May







From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org  Mon Sep 22 10:30:05 1997
From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:30:05 +0800
Subject: y2k as ideological opportunity.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 





On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Chip Mefford wrote:

> >>[IRS collection mechanism collapses due to y2k problem]
> >
> >If such a thing actually happened, I strongly suspect they'd
> >activate the contingency plan that was developed to maintain
> >tax collection after nuclear war; a flat 20% sales tax,
> >collected (I think) by surviving Post Office employees.
> >
> >Come to think of it, that might be better than what we have
> >now....
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Naw, its gonna be real simple and clean.
> 
> The bid goes out,
> 
> Billgatus of Borg brings in a crapload of DEC/NT partner machines,
> puts 500 programmers on porting the tasking and data to
> Office 98, retrains the IRS on Office,
> Slides right past Oct 1999 without a hitch, you

... and delivers "IRS 1999" in August of 2002 ...






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 22 10:42:33 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:42:33 +0800
Subject: encouraging digital pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 3:16 AM -0700 9/22/97, Wei Dai wrote:
>One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
>digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
>with True Names). I think the main reason why pseudonyms are not used more
>widely is the lack of support on client software, especially on the
>receiver side. When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
>from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
>there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
>junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
>pseudonym.

I'm planning to make more serious use of pseudonyms, digitally signed.
Despite what LD used to claim about my use of "tentacles," it was simply
too much trouble to do the elaborate cut-and-paste of using PGP 2.0, 2.1.
2.6, etc. for my Mac.

I still lack a good remailer-chaining utility--anyone know one for the Mac,
one that will read Raph's list of reliable remailers, slurp down the public
keys, construct a sequence of chainings?

But I now am using PGP 5.0, which is well-integrated with my mailer
(Eudora), and I plan to spend some effort creating some persistent, signed
personnas. (I won't say when, so don't assume any new "nyms" you see here
are mine.)

To this end, this message is being signed. With my new PGP 5.0 key. Signed
by my old (really, really, old) 1992 key.

>Of course the long-term solution is to get native pseudonym support on the
>client software, but in the mean time there is a fairly simple workaround
>if someone wants to volunteer a modest amount of resources. That person
>should set up a mailing list that simply resends cypherpunk traffic that
>are signed by pseudonyms. To help filtering, the pseudonym's key hash
>should be prepended to the subject.

This would be a quite good service, one requiring no conscious effort by
the original sender (that is, he doesn't have to use the "nym signature
checker" as the last remailer...he just posts to the list, and someone
else, as Wei describes, performs the "service" of checking the signature
and putting it in the From: field (or maybe the Subject: field, if he can't
overwrite the From: field).

>When this is done, those of us who want to can filter out everything sent
>by remailers to the cypherpunks mailing list and subscribe to the proposed
>service. If enough of us do this, it should motivate anonymous senders to
>set up persistent identities. If the trouble of generating new pseudonyms
>is not enough to discourage the anonymous junk, the proposed service can
>charge ecash or hashcash either per pseudonym or per email.

A good idea.

- --Tim May  (P.S. I haven't yet uploaded my new key to the MIT keyserver, as
I wanted to play with it for a while first, in case I need to generate
another one due to some problem.)


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCaj2VK3AvrfAt9qEQJJPQCdESzCe42WM/0Mttv53zizCOBuhToAoJL7
24hwTRoltRpopsc3OHHi7ZQH
=wGEl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 22 12:39:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:39:39 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Letter
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970922112723.00823294@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 



At 4:27 AM -0700 9/22/97, John Young wrote:
>We offer a recent letter from Jim Bell that describes
>prison and his prospects:
>
>   http://jya.com/jimbell4.htm
>
>It is published against his wishes, maybe. Read the letter to
>see the fear (or caginess) loss of freedom teaches.

And John Young, at that URL, writes:

"[Below my reason for publishing Jim's letter. JY]

XXX,

I'd like to publish Jim's letter.

I feel that I've been trapped into silence by his letter,
by the Feds, through threats to Jim. And that
he may be cooperating with them to understandably
save his own ass, and thereby wittingly or unwittingly
threatening others, including me, or at the very least
chilling public discussion of his case.

As with the IRS spam many of us received, Jim's letter
is meant to isolate us and leave us uneasy about whose
doing what to who, and thus making us easy to pick
off one by one, and to squeal on others who we've
been induced to believe is squealing on us, or to
distance ourselves from, as Jim is now doing. Mainly,
though, such crap makes us shut up and behave, and
that's the lonely dark cell of self-censorship,
self-imprisonment.

The letter needs to be made public, or at least I need
to speak up about it to get free of the trap. I'll put it
on my Web site, stating that it came anonymously.

John

--end quoted material--

John is indeed correct that the 6-8 month "delay" in sentencing Bell is
designed to send a "message." Both by letting the process linger, and by,
perhaps, inducing Bell to "remember" things that implicate others in the
whole AP thing. And of course to get him to "repent" and engage in the sad
display of self-criticism, Mao-style, we see in Bell's words. Very sad.

We long ago lost the "speedy trial" aspect of our system...even when OJ
thought a speedy trial would help him (as it probably did), the trial did
not get underway until more than 7 months after the murders (and of course
it last another 9 months). More typical is a trial date set a year or two
after the arrests. (Granted, often this is at the urging of the accused's
side.)

Now we are seeing _sentencing_ delayed by 6-8 months, while Bell rots in
jail. Exactly what did the presiding judge lack to pronounce sentence on
Bell the same day, or perhaps within a few days, of his conviction?

The answer can only be that they wish to break Bell, to get him to reveal
names and messages, and to draw out the process to maximize the publicity.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From shamrock at netcom.com  Mon Sep 22 13:16:33 1997
From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:16:33 +0800
Subject: What will it cost to let Big Brother watch?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970922093831.00b4b320@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Lizard wrote:

> At 11:53 AM 9/22/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >[This story was scheduled for page 18 of this week's Time magazine, but got
> >cut at the last minute and replaced with a Diana investigation update.
> 
> I think you've managed to sum up everything wrong with the world in just
> one sentence.

No kidding.

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted mail preferred






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Sep 22 13:19:59 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:19:59 +0800
Subject: [URGENT] Blowfish
In-Reply-To: <598f41e9429856e4e84ca808fbaafef2@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C[rook] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
> completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
> cross-ruminated.
> 
>          _______c___c
>         /       /_  _\
>        |       ((6)(6)) Timmy C[rook] May
>        (  )_  __\\  //__
>        o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email :  : 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Sep 22 13:34:03 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:34:03 +0800
Subject: EAR question
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709222023.VAA02921@server.test.net>




Steve Schear  writes:
> If crypto source code is published in printed form and distributed under a
> non-disclousre agreement does it meet the uncontrolled export criteria
> under the new EAR regs?  My question seems to hinge on the definition of
> "general distribution," in Sec. 734.7.
> 
> The key passages seem to be:
> 
> Sec. 734.3  Items subject to the EAR.
> 
> * * * * *
>     (b) * * *
>     (3) Publicly available technology and software, except software
> controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control
> List, that:

Have you read 5D002?  I think this is the clause which says that you
can not export it for whatever reason.

My reason for thinking this is from reading some of Peter Jungers
docs at:

	http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/jvd/pdj-bxa-gjs070397.htm

the decision the commerce department made on the RSA sig said that it
was not exportable, 5D002 was the paragraph quoted as the reason why
it was not exportable.

That is perhaps it is not that interesting what you can do with stuff
which isn't designated 5D002, as that is exportable anyway.

On a related note my understanding of what Peter Junger is saying is
that under EAR you can export anything you want just by printing it on
a piece of paper and snailing it.

Adam
--
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <3426D660.6874@dev.null>



Tim May wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA2
> 
> At 3:16 AM -0700 9/22/97, Wei Dai wrote:
> >One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
> >digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
> >with True Names).

  Like TruthMonger!

> >When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
> >from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
> >there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
> >junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
> >pseudonym.

  I was wondering why you never did anything about the child abuse
taking place in your family. I guess you deleted my anonymous email
to you about the situation.
 
> I'm planning to make more serious use of pseudonyms, digitally signed.
> Despite what LD used to claim about my use of "tentacles," it was simply
> too much trouble to do the elaborate cut-and-paste of using PGP 1.9, 2.7.
> 2.85, etc. for my Amiga.

  Well, if Mr. Cryptography himself finds it too much trouble to
use cryptography, then I guess it shows how lame the efforts are
of the CypherPunks who complain that Joe Sheeple doesn't use it,
either.

> But I now am using PGP 5.6, which is well-integrated with my mailer
> (Eudora), and I plan to spend some effort creating some persistent, forged
> personnas. (I won't say when, so don't assume any new "nyms" you see here
> are mine, except for TruthMonger.)
> 
> To this end, this message is being signed. With my new PGP 5.6 key. Signed
> by my old (really, really, old) 1989 key.

  This ought to ensure that you won't be the target of forgeries in
your name, or scum who misquote and/or twist your words.
 
> >Of course the long-term solution is to get native pseudonym support on the
> >client software, but in the mean time there is a fairly simple workaround
> >if someone wants to volunteer a modest amount of resources. That person
> >should set up a mailing list that simply resends cypherpunk traffic that
> >are signed by pseudonyms. To help filtering, the pseudonym's key hash
> >should be prepended to the subject.

  This would take care of that pesky problem of being bothered with
anonymous messages informing you about your children being molested
by their teachers, etc.
   
> >When this is done, those of us who want to can filter out everything sent
> >by remailers to the cypherpunks mailing list and subscribe to the proposed
> >service. If enough of us do this, it should motivate anonymous senders to
> >set up persistent identities. If the trouble of generating new pseudonyms
> >is not enough to discourage the anonymous junk, the proposed service can
> >charge ecash or hashcash either per pseudonym or per email.

  This surely ought to help in removing the scourge of remailers
currently plaguing the Internet, or at least force remailer users
to get their Cypherpunk approved pseudo-identity numbers.
  It is certainly important to get the message out to others on the
Internet that people who use anonymous remailers don't have anything
of worth to say.
  Cypherpunk identity numbers will help us to cull out the misfits
and wrong-thinkers from the Internet. It's about time.

TruthMonger
"Just say no to Anonymous inside."






From gturk at concentric.net  Mon Sep 22 13:53:03 1997
From: gturk at concentric.net (gturk at concentric.net)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:53:03 +0800
Subject: The politics of problem playing with our constitutional rights
In-Reply-To: <3429560f.30622794@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922164300.0091ca10@pop3.concentric.net>



At 11:28 AM 9/22/97 GMT, phelix at vallnet.com wrote:

>On 22 Sep 1997 02:32:12 -0500, Alan  wrote:

>>Mail is another hole.  Eudora now distributes PGP 5.0 with the latest
>>version.  (This version does not do RSA keys. You can get the plug in to do
>>those keys from PGP inc.)  This is helpful, but there are many other
>>plug-ins that need to be written.  Support for remailers is lacking.
>>Windows based code for Mixmaster is also a needed thing.  A good interface
>>would help immensely.  (Private Idaho was a big step in the right
>>direction. Integrated with a remailer people already use would be another
>>big step forward.)

>Agreed.  I think Remailer support could be a big opportunity.  People may
>not understand/care-about encryption, digital signing, etc., but they
>definitely understand the need for anonymity.

Give the people what they want.

>Question:  If a free remailer plugin for eudora is released, can the
>remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
>People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
>messages delivers.  What about spamming?  

Use hashcash, or even better, digital cash of your chosen currency.

It costs 32 cents to mail a first class letter.  Is it worth paying that to 
send an anonymous email through a chain of a dozen remailers using a Eudora 
plug-in, or a java applet?  For some people it is, if it's made easy to do.

If a thousand people used it each day, that would mean $320 every 24 hours, 
or $116,800 a year to be divided up amongst the 12 remailer operators.  
Similar possibilities exist for remailer pinging services and nymservers.

>>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)

Why not rewrite Windows?  Call it Secured Windows (or S/Win).  Features 
might include:
	- no swapfile, or at least one that is securely deleted each
	  time the system is shut down
	- automatically overwrite __ times when deleting information
	  from the hard drive
	- digital cash wallet app
	- S/WAN or SSH-type access to ISP
	- library of different encryption apps, including an easy way
	  to quickly encrypt all sensitive files

Initially S/Win would be useful for emerging ecommerce businesses, and also 
companies and individuals handling sensitive data (i.e., accountants, 
lawyers, etc.).  As ecommerce begins to evolve, people doing high-value 
transactions (like buying stocks and other financial instruments) will want 
to know they aren't getting bogus stock ticker prices (a la IP-spoofing) so
they don't unintentionally "sell the farm" at the wrong moment.

Maybe it's a crazy idea to rewrite Windows, but seeing as so many people are 
familiar with it already, why not make it more useful/better/secure?  

When the majority of computer owners realize that their emoney transactions 
can be compromised on an unsecure platform like Windows, they will demand a 
"product" like S/Win.  After all, what good is your personal Verisign 
certificate (a public key) -- not to mention SET -- if the corresponding 
signing/authentication (secret) key can be swiped off your computer by a 
malicious Active X control along with the keystroke sequence of your 
passphrase?

-g

"It sucks being a control freak during an information revolution."






From declan at well.com  Mon Sep 22 14:45:29 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:45:29 +0800
Subject: Arab youths bypass government's CyberPatrol Net-censorship
Message-ID: 



	DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - Badr knows his way around the
Internet. He easily sidesteps government attempts to block access to the
pornographic sites that have lured him and other young Arabs to the
"information superhighway."
	"They close doors, but I can get in through windows," said Badr, a
20-year-old who scoffs at the struggles of conservative Arab governments to
police cyberspace.
	With the Internet growing more popular, the sheikdoms of the
Persian Gulf are becoming like Western parents trying to keep pornography
away from children.
	But it's not just young people that leaders worry about in these
strict Islamic societies, where women cover in black veils outside their
houses and public mingling between the sexes is discouraged.
	Kisses and foul language are edited out of foreign movies, and
magazines arrive with pages torn out and photos of women inked over in
black to hide even a hint of cleavage.
	Enter the Internet and the cry for censorship of pornography - and
in some cases politics - grows louder. All the region's Arab states but
one, impoverished Yemen, which cannot afford an effort to police the Web,
are working to limit access to Internet sites.
	Etisalat, the only Internet provider to the seven states of the
United Arab Emirates, set up software blockades after government officials
complained about free access to the Web. A "proxy cache server" cuts out
sites deemed offensive by Etisalat, which is partly owned by the government.
	Khaldoon Tabbaza, publisher of the Jordan-based Arabia Online
service, said some attempts at censorship get ridiculous.
	"There is software programmed to block sites which contain certain
keywords such as nude, sex and breast. So if you're interested in getting
access to information about Middlesex county in the United Kingdom,
research about breast cancer or - a chicken breast recipe, you cannot," he
said.
	Despite the government efforts, many Arab youths search out
material on the Internet virtually unchallenged.
	Badr, the young Emirates hacker who showed off his Internet skills
on condition only his first name was used, is evidence the system doesn't
work. Clicking his mouse, he moved through a series of sites and soon he's
looking at naked women and pornographic video images, complete with sound
effects.
	Robert, a Lebanese who also insisted on using only his first name,
thwarts an Arab taboo almost as strong as that against pornography -
talking to enemy Israel.
	"I spend two to three hours online (several times a week) chatting
with people in Israel. Its very interesting for me to exchange thoughts and
opinions with the people I was brought up to view as my enemies," said
Robert, a 24-year-old sales executive based in Dubai.
	"We do exchange some tough words when some sort of violence erupts
in the region, but I think that is part of getting to know each other."
	Qatar and Oman are the only Persian Gulf states with even fledgling
diplomatic ties to Israel. The other countries have no telecommunications
or mail links to the Jewish state, but e-mail via the Internet sidesteps
that.
	Qatar and Oman both try to block access to pornographic sites,
however, using such software as "Cyber Patrol" and "Net Nanny."
	Kuwait's Communications Ministry is working on a system of blocking
access to proscribed Internet sites.
	Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia, one of the most conservative Muslim
countries, has yet to officially join the cyberspace age. It has set up a
committee to oversee the introduction, but - with the wide range of Saudi
taboos - few expect the Internet to soon enter everyday life in the kingdom.
	Still, even in Saudi Arabia, people find ways to track down
scandalous Internet sites. Saudis who can afford it make long-distance
telephone calls to dial up Internet networks in other countries, mainly in
the Emirates and Bahrain, but also in Britain.
	The problems of censorship grow with the Internet's popularity. The
Emirates' Etisalat has 20,000 subscribers and an estimated 100,000 users.
Internet cafes have opened in Oman and Qatar and in Dubai, one of the seven
states in the Emirates.
	An official at Qatar Telecommunications Corp., speaking on
condition of anonymity to avoid offending government and religious leaders,
conceded that access to offensive material on the Internet could not be
completely blocked. But he insisted it could be controlled.
	Others simply refuse to recognize the problem.
	"Most of our customers come here for the fun of it," said Ali
Mohammed, manager at an Internet cafe in Qatar. "They are not interested in
pornography."







From pooh at efga.org  Mon Sep 22 15:01:43 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 06:01:43 +0800
Subject: encouraging digital pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922174558.0356a9ec@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 03:16 AM 9/22/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
>from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
>there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
>junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
>pseudonym.

Perhaps I am missing something here.  I find it easy to distinguish type-I
anonymous traffic from nym mail.  Anonymous mail usually comes from an
address like 'anon@' or 'nobody@' while pseudonymous mail will come from a
pseudonym.

A pseudonym is almost indistinguishable from a regular email address.  The
only way you can tell is if your know the domain is a remailer domain.
Since there are very few stable nymservers in the world, it should not be
hard to filter for all of the stable nyms individually.  If I was looking
or a generic way to filter out from all anonymous mail from the 3 to 12
nyms (depending on how you count) on the same domains, I'd look for the
word "anonymous" in the from field.

I successfully filter all anonymous mail I receive, but I assign it a color
rather than rejecting anonymous mail.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 22 16:23:14 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:23:14 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970922104428.006977f4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922191439.006a46f8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 03:46 PM 9/22/97 +0000, Declan McCullagh wrote, regarding the 
right of people to say almost anything anywhere under any 
circumstance:
 This principle does not disappear when the
>> >information being shared is digital.

To which I suggested that simple gossip is qualitatively different 
from posting confidential information about others to, say, a 
newsgroup or Web page. Thus: 

>> That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
>> half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
>> level.
>
(stuff snipped)

Declan responded:
 
>And yes, some of the "half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the 
books"
>are misguided. Just as many argue laws against drugs, gambling, or
>FCC rules prohibiting the broadcast of "indecent" material are also
>unconstitutional -- and a waste of our police's time.

That's a great response, but I still see little chance that this 
argument will go away on constitutional grounds. Until then, I'm 
reporting on what happens. It's shocking and intellectually 
indefensible, I know, but hey, my money's on reality.;-).


>> I would like to go to those small-town folk of whom urban 
>> intellectuals write so eloquently and ask them what they would 
think 
>> of their neighbors posting all their gossip to a place where 
millions 
>> can read it. Something tells me they wouldn't see those two 
actions 
>> as one in the same. There is a qualitiative difference between the 

>> two.
>
>The problem is, I suspect, in drawing that line. Want to try your 
hand in
>drawing a line outlining the scope of "obscenity" laws? Remember 
they
>cover textual material in some states and comics in others. No? I 
didn't
>think so. 

Actually, I'd be more than happy to "draw the line" if I did such 
things for a living - but I don't. In any case, I'd address the topic 
of privacy on its own without referring to hot button issues like 
obscenity. I invite everyone else to decide if the two issues are a 
fair parallel or not.

I now invite Solveig, Julie and everyone else to comment. Me, I'm 
just betting on the horses....

Will

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCb73tZgKT/Hvj9iEQLCiACghlPBpeIaUHheWN4Bp9JJXlEFp2IAoLB6
OVSFs2pSDjjRqidKHmy9uT6H
=DRrn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 22 16:58:45 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:58:45 +0800
Subject: encouraging digital pseudonyms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709230005.TAA17421@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:45:58 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" 
> Subject: Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms

> Perhaps I am missing something here.  I find it easy to distinguish type-I
> anonymous traffic from nym mail.  Anonymous mail usually comes from an
> address like 'anon@' or 'nobody@' while pseudonymous mail will come from a
> pseudonym.

A pseudonym and an anonymous account are NOT the same thing. That is what
you are missing.

'ravage' is a 'nym that I have been using since about '82 or '83 (I used
'ogre' and 'ghost' before that), I have NEVER used an account such as
'anon@bar.com' while I do generate traffic under other short-term
'nym's.

The only reason anonymous mail comes as 'anon@' or 'nobody@' is because that
is the way they are currently set up. If an anon-remailer were serious about
long-term survival the output accounts would look just like the user
accounts and not something as blatent as the above.

Anonymous remailers will have arrived when they quit using the simple
patterning as above and they figure out how to charge for their services
(anonymous privacy is a commodity with a worth, seriously undervalued in
todays market).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep 22 17:10:55 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:10:55 +0800
Subject: Persistent Persona
Message-ID: <199709222358.BAA22180@basement.replay.com>



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From miner333 at dogbert.xroads.com  Mon Sep 22 18:40:45 1997
From: miner333 at dogbert.xroads.com (Miner)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:40:45 +0800
Subject: Interesting Statistic in WSJ
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922182412.00774178@roxanna>



% of labor pool working for S&P500 companies = 14 %
% of labor pool working for government = 14.5%

S&P500 increase in productivity is running about 3.9%/year
Government 0.5% per year.

The 0.5% is probably attributed to the ever increasing number of citizen
units that end up in a prison working for 55 cents an hour, 1,000,000 plus
units and counting.

Do they offer licence plate stamping courses in jc?







From jf_avon at citenet.net  Mon Sep 22 18:44:34 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:44:34 +0800
Subject: The Taxing Problem (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:31:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jean-Francois Avon 
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re: The Taxing Problem



>             Few jurisdictions have begun to grapple with the issue, but they
>             will, since many of them around the world are starved for
>             revenues. And when they do, their tax authorities will discover
>             the wonderland quality of the Internet. Two jurisdictions--the
>             state of Florida and Tacoma, Wash.--recently tried to impose
>             some level of taxation on e-commerce.

It is not everybody who say that their only wish is to get our keys for 
the sake of reading our love letters... [see later remark]

>             a Web site based in a low-tax jurisdiction. Distribution through
>             the Internet could make the tax authority just another
>             superfluous middleman.

Since when the tax man was a middleman?

>             problems. The very concept of "permanent establishment" in an
>             international tax context as the basis for taxation is
>             unworkable in the information age.

Basically, the law of causality starts to catch them up.  Money is 
an expression of Man's Reason, expressed through it's productive 
abilities. Since taxing is always coercitive, it goes against individuals's 
best judgment.  So, when there is nothing to physically coerce, they loose the 
ability to tax.

>             The time to explore Internet taxation issues is now--before
>             electronic commerce really heats up, before the enormous
>             economic potential it offers is lost in a welter of confusing,
>             conflicting, and counterproductive tax policies. 

"Economic Potential", Newspeak for "confiscation of production to finance 
other's peoples dreams".  And they 
realize that if they don't clamp on it *now*, it'll go through their 
fingers like fine dry sand.  

"To explore the [...] issues": Newspeak for "to bully the 
Freedom-of-e-commerce groups", Newspeak for "to figure out a way to keep 
milking them without killing them".  

>             Legislatures
>             worldwide need to hear from the business community about the
>             promise of electronic commerce, and about the need to protect it
>             through wise and coordinated tax policies

How in the hell tax policies will "protect" the electronic commerce?  
Easy: just the way the Mafia used to "protect" commerces from burning 
up...

Newspeak Master.

>             --policies that take
>             into account the way the Internet really works.

Newspeak for "how to keep milking, or rather, keep bloodsucking them without 
killing them?

And accessorily,   how exactly does it work?  In a totally non-private way.  
So, *naturally*,  businesspersons will want to protect their privacy.  But 
how in hell is the govt be able to do *any* monitoring of transactions if the 
transactions are encrypted?  Duhhh...

Note to Unicorn: how does 2+2 ?    :-)

>  
>             Maybe the business community needs to take the first step.
>             Corporations should initiate the debate on how to create tax
>             policies that do not cripple electronic commerce.

Peoples on Death Row are more lucky:: they don't get coaxed to weave their 
own hanging rope...

Why concede them their screwed-up, leech mentality basic premises? 
In no way should we engage in this discussion.  All we need to do is to 
expose our basic premises and say that the case rest.

>             There's only
>             one way to move Internet commerce from here to there, and that's
>             to engage in some forward-looking discussion.

I.e. there is only one way to make us swallow their Newspeak: to dazzle 
us with their fancy and rhetorics in order
 to make us abandon our basic premises.

But will we?   :-b 
                   
                 --8==

Ciao

jfa






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 22 18:55:47 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:55:47 +0800
Subject: The Suitcases have been Successfully Tested
Message-ID: 




Monday September 22 3:54 PM EDT

Russia May Have 'Lost' Nuclear Bombs

By Andrei Khalip

MOSCOW (Reuter) - President Boris Yeltsin's former environmental safety
adviser said in remarks published on Monday that some of
Russia's portable nuclear bombs might indeed be missing, as asserted by
another former Yeltsin aide.

"The statement by Alexander Lebed concerning suitcases with nuclear bombs
is definitely not groundless," academician Alexei
Yablokov wrote in a letter to Novaya Gazeta weekly.
...
He mentioned more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of which
could kill up to 100,000 people.

....
The United States said then it had detected a seismic event "with explosive
characteristics" near the Novaya Zemlya test site, but Russian
officials flatly denied any nuclear tests.

They said Russia had voluntarily given up testing in 1992 and was sticking
to this position.

--end quote--

I was unable to attend the Demonstration at NZ, but I am now more willing
to bid for the suitcases than before. They really pack a punch!

I bid $800,000 for Suitcase Number 57.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Sep 22 19:42:34 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:42:34 +0800
Subject: The Suitcases have been Successfully Tested
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> The United States said then it had detected a seismic event "with explosive
> characteristics" near the Novaya Zemlya test site, but Russian
> officials flatly denied any nuclear tests.
> 
> They said Russia had voluntarily given up testing in 1992 and was sticking
> to this position.

Russia may have indeed given up testing. Seems that Russian's haven't.

This strongly indicates that not only are the suitcases for sale, but the
vendor also provides the /crucial/ combination for unlocking them. This is
really good news for nuclear hedge fund investors.

> I was unable to attend the Demonstration at NZ, but I am now more willing
> to bid for the suitcases than before. They really pack a punch!
> 
> I bid $800,000 for Suitcase Number 57.

That could easily provide a return of 1000% on investment in a matter of
miliseconds.  :-) As always, read the prospectus carefully before you
invest. 

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 22 19:55:50 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:55:50 +0800
Subject: The Suitcases have been Successfully Tested
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 4:38 AM -0700 9/23/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> I was unable to attend the Demonstration at NZ, but I am now more willing
>> to bid for the suitcases than before. They really pack a punch!
>>
>> I bid $800,000 for Suitcase Number 57.
>
>That could easily provide a return of 1000% on investment in a matter of
>miliseconds.  :-) As always, read the prospectus carefully before you
>invest.

As Nukes R Us told me, "past results in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are no
guarantee of future results."

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From maria at linux.nycmetro.com  Mon Sep 22 20:04:25 1997
From: maria at linux.nycmetro.com (maria at linux.nycmetro.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:04:25 +0800
Subject: nuclear_2.html
Message-ID: <199709230254.WAA24733@linux.nycmetro.com>




                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Mir Computer Working; Gore Cautious on Future
   Next Story: AIDS Doctors Volunteer to Test Vaccine
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Monday September 22 3:54 PM EDT 
   
Russia May Have 'Lost' Nuclear Bombs

   By Andrei Khalip
   
   MOSCOW (Reuter) - President Boris Yeltsin's former environmental
   safety adviser said in remarks published on Monday that some of
   Russia's portable nuclear bombs might indeed be missing, as asserted
   by another former Yeltsin aide.
   
   "The statement by Alexander Lebed concerning suitcases with nuclear
   bombs is definitely not groundless," academician Alexei Yablokov wrote
   in a letter to Novaya Gazeta weekly.
   
   The letter was written on September 9, days after Lebed, former
   presidential security adviser, told the CBS News "60 Minutes"
   programme that the Russian military had lost track of some of its
   nuclear weapons.
   
   He mentioned more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of
   which could kill up to 100,000 people.
   
   Defence Minister Igor Sergeyev insisted on Monday that Russia's
   nuclear arsenal was under firm control.
   
   "There are no concerns over this issue," Interfax news agency quoted
   him as saying. "The nuclear weapons are under permanent control." The
   minister appeared to be making a general remark and did not mention
   Yablokov or Lebed.
   
   Nuclear experts with international think-tanks have said in the past
   that Russia has strict control over its military nuclear sites and
   that they viewed nuclear bomb and missile theft as extremely unlikely.
   
   But they said there had been cases of theft of nuclear materials from
   power plants and scientific laboratories.
   
   Yablokov said the military might simply have no record of some of the
   portable nuclear bombs, which he said were made in the 1970s for the
   Soviet KGB for "terrorist purposes."
   
   "These nuclear charges were not registered by the Defence Ministry and
   as a result could have been dropped from the list of nuclear devices
   under international disarmament negotiations," Yablokov said.
   
   Yablokov, an outspoken advocate of environmental protection, also did
   not exclude that Russia carried out a nuclear test at its Arctic
   island of Novaya Zemlya last month.
   
   The United States said then it had detected a seismic event "with
   explosive characteristics" near the Novaya Zemlya test site, but
   Russian officials flatly denied any nuclear tests.
   
   They said Russia had voluntarily given up testing in 1992 and was
   sticking to this position.
   
   Yablokov's charges come at an embarrassing time for Russian officials,
   who are hosting U.S. Energy Secretary Federico Pena and Vice President
   Al Gore for wide-ranging talks due to include nuclear safety issues.
   
   Washington has more than once expressed concern over nuclear safety in
   Russia and what it called a possible transfer of Russian nuclear
   technologies to other countries, primarily Iran, which it views as a
   sponsor of international terrorism.
   
   Moscow says it is adhering strictly to its international nuclear
   non-proliferation obligations.
   
   Yablokov was sacked from Yeltsin's administration earlier this year.
   He had been in charge of environmental issues at top bodies of the
   former Soviet Union and Russia since 1989. He was chairman of
   Greenpeace-Soviet Union before 1990.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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     _________________________________________________________________
   
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                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
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    Questions or Comments






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Mon Sep 22 20:40:40 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:40:40 +0800
Subject: MatchPseudonym Technology / Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: <3426D660.6874@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709230329.WAA22595@manifold.algebra.com>



Prof. TruthMonger wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA2
> > 
> > At 3:16 AM -0700 9/22/97, Wei Dai wrote:
> > >One of Tim's suggested cypherpunk projects is to encourage the use of
> > >digital pseudonyms (i.e. cryptographically persistent entities not linked
> > >with True Names).
> 
>   Like TruthMonger!

That cypherpunk project came to fruition a year and a half ago.

My moderation bot STUMP, available for free download at my Web Site
http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov, actively supports pseudonymous posters
who identify themselves with PGP.

> > >When I see a piece of email sent to the cypherpunks list
> > >from an anonymous remailer, I typically delete it without reading, because
> > >there is no easy way to tell between anynoymous email (which are typically
> > >junk) and pseudonymous email, and there is no easy way to filter by
> > >pseudonym.

STUMP rewrites the From: field for pseudonymous letters, substituting
the From: field to the user ID in the PGP key.

> > I'm planning to make more serious use of pseudonyms, digitally signed.
> > Despite what LD used to claim about my use of "tentacles," it was simply
> > too much trouble to do the elaborate cut-and-paste of using PGP 1.9, 2.7.
> > 2.85, etc. for my Amiga.
> 
>   Well, if Mr. Cryptography himself finds it too much trouble to
> use cryptography, then I guess it shows how lame the efforts are
> of the CypherPunks who complain that Joe Sheeple doesn't use it,
> either.

I have had great success with people who never used PGP and then
started using it to sign pseudonymous articles (like Prof. CBI-admin at ...).

> > To this end, this message is being signed. With my new PGP 5.6 key. Signed
> > by my old (really, really, old) 1989 key.
> 
>   This ought to ensure that you won't be the target of forgeries in
> your name, or scum who misquote and/or twist your words.

STUMP does that and more.

Interestingly, rec.martial-arts.moderated, which also uses my bot, went
even farther than soc.culture.russian.moderated and now requires all
anonymous users to sign their posts with PGP -- in essense making them
pseudonymous. I was a bit surprised initially, but do not mind it as
long as anyone can post anonymously.

	- Igor.






From azur at netcom.com  Mon Sep 22 20:54:12 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:54:12 +0800
Subject: Minnesota Appeals Court Affirms Jurisdiction of the State
Message-ID: 



>From Rolling Good Times:
In a recent action, the Minnesota Court of Appeals states that the Attorney
General has the right to regulate internet activity. This is one of the
first pieces of case law to arise in the area of internet gambling.

http://www.rgtonline.com/MinnAppeals.html







From aptbnl at dev.null  Mon Sep 22 21:59:09 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:59:09 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 19 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet)
Message-ID: <3427480F.5344@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From aptbnl at dev.null  Mon Sep 22 22:05:20 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:05:20 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 19 / GeigerBurg III Text
Message-ID: <34274861.7549@dev.null>



B
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Extra! : News From the Front

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Extra! : News From the Front
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[News Flash! From: http://www.turnleft.com "The Home of Liberalism on the
Web"]

What They Don't Want You to Know
by Auto-Correspondent "http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html"

In order to understand InfoWar you need to realize that everything is
controlled by a CypherPunks list made up of Cult of One members
with help from Nobody and Anonymous.

The conspiracy first started during the Censorship Experiment in
majordomo at toad.com. They have been responsible for many
events throughout history, including the InfoWar.

Today, members of the conspiracy are everywhere. They can be
identified by their Code writing.

They want to electronically forge TruthMonger posts and imprison
resisters in Silicon Valley using Trei Transponders.

In order to prepare for this, we all must Nuke DC. Since the media
is controlled by Declan McCullagh we should get our information
from Black Unicorn's yellow-menace writing in blanc snow..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as he had suspected!

A Player To Be Named Later read the output of the Java script at Left Turn's
'Make Your Own Conspiracy Theory' page.
Left Turn had confirmed everything he had been discovering on his own, even
when he had discovered facts and information which pointed toward completely
contradictory conspiracy theories. A Player To Be Named Later recognized
that this was positive proof that the roots of the Great Conspiracy had
spread throughout the very fabric of reality, itself.

He now knew that the conspiracy was no longer just some outside entity which
lived in the shadows around him, waiting for him to let down his guard
before it sprang its waiting traps and enclosed him with its vicious iron
jaws.
He now knew that it went much, much deeper than that.

Now, he knew the conspiracy was in his Mind!

A Player To Be Named Later had immediately dropped all of his other InterNet
personas and erased all signs of them from his hard drive. With the new
knowledge he had gained, he knew that he could no longer trust even himself.

The first sign that the conspiracy had managed to spread throughout both
reality and virtual reality were the posts to the CypherPunks mailing list
by Damaged Justice.

Subject: Internet putting truth in danger
From: Damaged Justice 
Organization: Somewhere just far enough outside of your jurisdiction
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

THE generation that has grown up on The X-Files poses a threat to the
future of journalism, Fergal Keane, the BBC's Asia Correspondent, said
last night.

Subject: Assassination Politics of a sort

There's a bounty on Gordie Howe's head. And Gordie isn't laughing about it.
Howe, 69, is planning to file a police complaint against a California radio
personality who offered a bounty to have "the old fool pummeled back to
reality."

Subject: FBI vs Silicon Valley: Guess Who's Winning?
The likely outcome: a tactical retreat by industry to avoid an all-out rout.

The electronic wizards seem to have met their match in a Washington cop
named Louis Freeh.

Subject: Trac[k]ing the Successful Drug User

By deploying their questionnaire on the Web, the researchers are
hoping to use the relative anonymity of the Net to access a "hidden
population" of drug users who would be disinclined to give accurate
reports of illegal use to face-to-face interviewers, Nicholson says.

In a short series of posts, Damaged Justice had managed to subtly point out
that:
The InterNet, in the hands of the public, was a threat to truth.
Assassination Politics would lead to the death of heroes such as Gordie
Howe.
Louis Freeh is going to kick the electronic wizards' butts.
Successful people on the InterNet are all secret drug users.

A Player To Be Named Later had seen the duplicity in Damaged Justice's posts
long before this, just as he had in the posts of Se7en.
Se7en purported to be a diabolical hacker turned lecturer, working the
security and LEA (law enforcement agency) circuit, but it had become obvious
that it was they who were working him. Se7en had got caught up in the LEA's
child pornography ruse and wrote a lengthy diatribe to the CypherPunks list
about the millions of pedophiles lurking in the shadows of the InterNet.
This came at a time which was convenient for adding support to the agendas
of several of the government shills working the list at that time.
A Player To Be Named Later had followed the trail of alleged pointers and
addresses that were provided by Se7en, only to find the usual spooks lurking
in the background. It was obvious that the spooks were doing their best to
cultivate a crop of genuine pedophiles by seeding the InterNet with pointers
to trails of perversion that they had carefully laid out themselves. No
doubt they would keep their self-generated perverts on ice until it came
time to drag them out into the public eye for one of their show-and-tell
displays of the 'good fight' they were putting up against the evil InterNet.

A Player To Be Named Later hadn't run his usual analysis on the past posts
and email traffic of Damaged Justice and those connected to him, but he was
not sure that it really mattered anymore, anyway.
There were indications that
FUD/DoubleSpeak/SpinDoctoring/VirtualTruth-whatever you wanted to name
it-had reached critical mass.

He took another look at one of Choate's posts to the CypherPunks list:
Subject: 6 USAF Crashes in 7 days = InfoWar?
From: Jim Choate 
To: cypherpunks at ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)

Just a thought...

The connection was obvious.
A number of stories made it into the periphery of the mainstream press
concerning the U.S. spooks campaign to murder 'bad' foreigners by
introducing defective parts into the products they bought for their armed
forces. Then the U.S. forces immediately got hit with a rash of high-profile
'accidents' to their own military units.
It was a clear message to the U.S. spooks that two (or more) could play that
game. So clear, in fact, that the Pentagon publicly and privately pulled in
the reins on a variety of normal and special operations, in order to shake
the trees for defective parts and defective soldiers. (Mostly the latter.)

The Real Guy had planned an expose on the background events taking place in
this area, but had decided not to do so, uncertain as to why he had made
that decision, at the time.
Now, A Player To Be Named Later realized that it was because FUD (Fear,
Uncertainty & Disinformation) had become the rule of the day, and there was
no longer anyone left to preach to but the converted-and the converted were
becoming unconverted at an increasingly rapid rate.

It had become obvious, I suppose, when it took so little effort on the
Pentagon's part to cover up the pair of rogue U.S. Air Force pilots who had
been positively linked to the Circle of Eunuchs by the secret task force
dedicated to rooting them out of their hiding places deep within the bowels
of government and corporate agencies around the world.

It was not surprising that they had managed to cover up the involvement of
the nuclear bomber pilot, since they were able to label her a sex criminal
before she had taken any overt action that would serve to trigger the
interest of those paying close attention to such things.
It was her proximity to the Author's current location that had led to her
discovery. The retired Air Force intelligence officer who had been assigned
to shadow the Author in Do Well, Saskatchewan, had alerted Canadian Customs
to notify him any time that soldiers from Minot Air Force Base crossed into
his territory. Although she never made physical contact with the Author, her
mere presence in close proximity to him led to an in-depth investigation
that turned up enough 'coincidences' to require her removal from service.

What was very troubling, however, was the fact that another of the Author's
contacts, from the Air Force base at his old stomping grounds in Tucson, had
been able to break formation on a training run, fly halfway across the
country with live bombs, almost making it to the site of the McVeigh trial
in Denver, and yet it hardly rated a "Gee, I wonder why he did that?" in the
mainstream press.
Tentative suggestions that the pilot was 'emotionally troubled' were eaten
up by the press, despite evidence to the contrary from his friends and
relatives, so readily that the Air Force never even had to release the
'psychiatrist reports' that had been hastily prepared to be 'leaked' to the
right sources, if needed.

A Player To Be Named Later wondered if all reporters for the mainstream
press were not, in fact, still incarcerated in the press compounds set up
for Operation Desert Storm. Were the 'backgrounds' they appeared to be
reporting from in reality just virtual creations from inside their media
prison?

A pilot carrying live bombs makes a beeline for the site of the Oklahoma
Bomber's trial; a truck full nuclear warheads goes missing; soldiers on a
base are the target of an armed assault; the pilot of a nuclear bomber is
shanghaied on curiously slim pretexts; a horde of major armed forces figures
suddenly resign or are shifted to non-sensitive positions-and the world
hardly seems to notice.
When a single former Russian General, however, with close connections to the
spooks, writes a no-brainer book with unsupported claims about nuclear
suitcases falling into the hands of the US's proclaimed 'enemies,' then the
mainstream press snaps to attention and gives full coverage to the dark
threat posed by theoretical, unseen, dark-skinned people who we will need to
be protected from, in the future.

"Gee, I wonder why he would do that?" A Player To Be Named Later said,
sarcastically, while visualizing a dark-skinned person in a foreign country
purchasing a nuclear suitcase from CIA-run Russian spooks.
"I suppose that if there was hard, non-refutable evidence of an Air Force
soldier purchasing a nuclear suitcase and going AWOL, headed for Washington,
DC, that this would be the reaction of the mainstream press. But let a
foreign 'darkie' try it, and all of a sudden we need to suspend some more
basic human rights, even if it was a BATF shill who was being run by a CIA
connected, former German intelligence operative who is related to a
high-ranking German politician who was involved in the Iran-Contra
drugs-for-arms scandal."

A Player To Be Named Later reached for a bottle of Scotch sitting behind his
laptop, taking a slow pull off of it as he reviewed the signs of the death
of investigative journalism in the past few years.
The CIA had used Woodward and Bernstein effectively during their assault on
the Presidency at the close of the Nixon scandal. The problem was that it
inspired a plethora of uncontrollable impersonators who wreaked havoc with
their efforts at FUD control. So they orchestrated the movement of
investigative journalism into the mundane mainstream of everyday life.
The sheeple didn't care about world politics and behind the scenes power
struggles. Their real interests lie in secret videos of an employee dipping
his dick in a coworker's coffee; a mechanic putting the old distributor cap
back on and charging the customer for a new one; a black mayor snorting coke
and getting a little trim from the ladies of the night.
All of this became breaking news which required the full force of the media
digging into the dark corners of these people's lives. Until the world's
nasty little secrets became just another everyday, run of the mill part of
normal life.

Now, Media Reality had finally approached critical mass, as foreseen by a
variety of voices crying in the wilderness, from George Orwell to Marshal
McLuhan.
Now, it was only a matter of time.

A Player To Be Named Later read the "Internet putting truth in danger" post
by Damaged Justice, once again:
Mr Keane, delivering the Huw Weldon Memorial Lecture at a television
convention, said that he was worried about the growing influence of
the Internet, and the conspiracy theories that are aired on it.

God help us if things deteriorated to the point where ordinary people put
the mainstream media 'truth' in danger by pointing out the obvious to people
who didn't really want to know why a U.S. Air Force pilot would head for the
site of McVeigh's trial with a load of live bombs.
Maybe he just got lost�

He told the Royal Television Society's Cambridge Convention that the
rash of rumours about the circumstances of the death of Diana,
Princess of Wales showed that there was a public appetite for
speculation and fantasy. He said: "Will the generation growing up on
The X-Files really want to choose calm, considered reportage when they
have science-fiction and fantasy?"

"Calm, considered reportage." A Player To Be Named Later intoned, solemnly,
thinking about the first interview he had seen by the major media with
someone who had been close to the Princess's fatal accident.
"Explosion." That was the first, and only, time he had heard that word used
by someone who had been present at the time of the accident. By the time the
rest of North America had awoken that morning, there were only reporters
feeding the world the disinformation being officially released by the
authorities. And in a world where reporters will dig up a dead body to do
DNA tests to see if the deceased was, indeed, fucking Tom Cruise, the major
networks somehow managed to 'lose' the footage of interviews with the
original witnesses, offering, instead, interviews with people who thought
that maybe something was perhaps taking place down there in the tunnel, but
who really knows?
We were told that there were no witnesses to the accident, yet we were still
fed unlikely reports of a motorcycle with photographers on it zigzagging in
front of the death vehicle at over a hundred miles an hour, and sundry other
inanities reeking of 'now you see it, now you don't' spin doctoring.

He said that the trend threatened to plunge reporting into the
"rumour-ridden gloom of the Middle Ages".

God forbid that unseemly rumors might spread concerning a man heading a
covert organization involved in running illegal drugs and arms ascending to
the Presidency after succeeding the front-man who had come to power as a
result of those illegal actions, and who had invaded a foreign country to
capture the drug-dealing monster who had been his closest bum-buddy during
his spook days.
God forbid that Joe Average should be exposed to the knowledge that a
succession of their Presidents were backed by the big bucks made by their
friends and relatives in business with the Nazis right up to the end of
World War II.

Knowledge such as this was dangerous knowledge that would put the spoon-fed
"truth" of the mainstream media "in danger" if the InterNet was allowed to
become a purveyor of 'unofficial' or 'non-approved' news.

A Player To Be Named Later thought of the three days of intensive press
coverage in which a multitude of mainstream media personnel spent hour upon
hour adding fuel to 'official leak' inspired rumors while not seeming to be
able to get any information at all on the players who were part and parcel
of the media's daily business activities.
He had been waiting to see the pictures of the concrete column that the
heavily armored death vehicle had supposedly hit at over a hundred miles per
hour. Nothing.

{In Toledo, or Detroit, or some other 'cable channel' city, a day or so
later, some no-name John Doe was killed after his vehicle struck a concrete
column on a local road structure. There were reporters from a number of
media sources there, getting close-ups of the vehicle, the column, and the
damage to it, the broken scraps of concrete at the accident scene. A Player
To Be Named Later saw it two or three times that day, as the media ensured
that all the circumstances surrounding the death of John Doe would be
subjected to the light of mainstream media 'truth.' He saw pictures from a
variety of different angles, obviously taken in the interest of satisfying
his 'right to know' all of the details surrounding the death of John Doe,
Anywhere, USA.}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From declan at well.com  Mon Sep 22 22:18:05 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:18:05 +0800
Subject: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple to USWest
Message-ID: 



This is an encouraging letter, especially given the number and breadth of
firms that signed on. But this section strikes me as telling:

>We urge the Committee to reject the Oxley-Manton amendment and any other
>form of domestic encryption control.

Then the committee should reject even the "original" draft of SAFE, which
has the first-ever domestic encryption control: penalties for the use of
crypto in a crime. When crypto is widespread, //any// "crime" (like posting
"indecent" materials?) will involve crypto. Domestic controls on encryption
are not a reasonable tradeoff for lifting export controls. Don't sell out
my rights to make a quick buck.

(Then of course there's White's "compromise" language floating around that
would double these criminal penalties. And Oxley -- in an effort to split
the coalition -- is circulating draft language that might exempt some forms
of mundane crypto-devices from his crypto-ban. Who knows? Maybe some
Congressmen would vote for Oxley II in hopes of staving off Oxley I. But
all these "compromises" are dangerous.)

Advice to undersigned firms: Tell your lobbyists to block //all//
encryption legislation that might come out of Congress. Then fire them.
Spend the millions of dollars on R&D. Get crypto in the hands of the
grandmothers of America. Or if you're not going to fire your lobbyists, at
least order them not to try and push a bill through. I know it's difficult;
that's all they know how to do. But, you see, not only is such a plan
doomed to fail, it likely will backfire and threaten all of our freedoms in
the process.

-Declan

======================

September 22, 1997

The Hon. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr.
Chairman
House Commerce Committee
2125 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C.  20515

Dear Chairman Bliley:

We are writing to express our strong opposition to the Oxley-Manton
amendment to HR 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act
(SAFE), which the Commerce Committee will consider this week, and to any
form of government domestic controls on encryption.

The Oxley-Manton amendment would impose unprecedented restrictions on the
domestic manufacture and availability of encryption, thus potentially
compromising the security of the nation's telephone system and the Internet
alike.  The amendment would:

* prohibit the domestic manufacture, sale and importation of any encryption
  product or service unless the government is given immediate access to the
  plaintext of communications and stored files without the knowledge of the
  user;

* prohibit network service providers, including telephone companies and
  Internet service providers, from offering encryption products or services
  unless communications can be immediately read without the knowledge of the
  user; and

* give the Attorney General unprecedented, broad new powers to establish
  standards for encryption products and services.

Encryption technologies are the vital tools consumers and businesses need
to operate with security and privacy in the information age, and are a
cornerstone of electronic commerce.  Government domestic controls on
encryption are incompatible with the consumer, corporate, and national
security benefits of the national information infrastructure.  Numerous
communications products and services are now under development that
incorporate encryption as an essential feature.   Oxley-Manton will stifle
these new products and services, end the deployment of market-driven key
recovery systems,  and undermine the potential of the new communications
media for electronic commerce and the promotion of democratic values.

* Strong encryption will not only ensure privacy but also help prevent crime
  on the network.  However, by mandating trap doors in all domestic encryption
  products and communications networks, the Oxley-Manton amendment will make
  the personal records and communications of individuals and businesses more
  vulnerable to hackers, terrorists, industrial spies and other criminals.  Put
  at risk will be medical records, tax returns, private email, business
  proprietary information and transactions, attorney-client communications,
  and cellular phone conversations.

* Oxley-Manton's broad requirement for "immediate access" to decryption keys
  without knowledge of the user would force Americans to forfeit their
  constitutional right of privacy as a condition of participating in the
  information age.

* Oxley-Manton invites disastrous industrial policy.  It is industrial policy
  with criminal sanctions attached.  The amendment authorizes the Attorney
  General to promulgate technical requirements for all encryption products
  and gives the Department of Justice prior approval authority over all
  encryption systems for computers and telecommunications.  This will stifle
  innovation. It will drive encryption expertise out of this country.  The
  market should be allowed to develop its own solutions, many of which in fact
  will meet law enforcement's needs within our existing system of legal
  authorities and safeguards.

* Oxley-Manton will be ineffective in keeping strong encryption out of the
  hands of criminals.  Criminals and terrorist groups will not use a system
  that gives the government access to their decryption keys.  In fact, the
  FBI has admitted in Congressional testimony that criminals will always
  have access to strong unbreakable encryption.

We urge the Committee to reject the Oxley-Manton amendment and any other
form of domestic encryption control.

Sincerely,

ACL Datacom, Inc., California
American Electronics Association
American Automobile Manufacturers Association
Americans for Tax Reform
America Online, Inc.
Ameritech
ANS Communications, Inc., New York
Apple Computer, Inc.
Ashton Communications Corp., California and Texas
Bell Atlantic
Bell South
Bowles Farming Co., Inc.
Business Software Alliance
Center for Democracy and Technology
Commercial Internet eXchange Association
CommerceNet
Compaq Computer Corp.
CompuServe, Inc.
Computer & Communications Industry Association
Computer Software Industry Association
Consumer Electronic Manufacturers Association
Counsel Connect
Crest Industries, Inc.
DataXchange Network, Inc.
Direct Marketing Association
Electronic Data Systems, Corp.
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Electronic Messaging Association
Epoch Internet
Fiber Network Solutions, Inc., Columbus, Ohio
Genuity Inc., a Bechtel company
IBM Corp.
Information Technology Association of America
Information Technology Industry Council (ITI)
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - US Activities
International Communications Association
Intuit Inc.
Internet Providers Association of Iowa
Microsoft
National Association of Manufacturers
NETCOM On-Line Communication Services, Inc.
NetINS, Inc., Iowa
Novell
Online Banking Association
National Association of Manufacturers
National Retail Federation
Netscape Communications Corp.
Phoenix Media/Communications Group
Pro-Trade Group
PGP, Inc.
RSA Data Security, Inc.
SBC Communications Inc.
Securities Industry Association
Silicon Valley Software Industry Coalition
Software Forum
Software Publishers Association
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TheOnRamp Group, Inc., Ohio
Trusted Information Systems
United States Council for International Business
United States Internet Council
United States Telephone Association
U.S. Chamber of Commerce
US West
Voters Telecommunications Watch








From kelsey at plnet.net  Mon Sep 22 22:23:26 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:23:26 +0800
Subject: US Senate bans laptops
Message-ID: <199709230503.AAA06154@email.plnet.net>



> From: Lucky Green 
> To: Cypherpunks Lite 
> Subject: US Senate bans laptops
> Date: Sunday, September 21, 1997 10:37 AM

> These people banning laptops amongst their peers are the same people who
> will decide on the future use of crypto by the masses.

This is really encouraging news!  Computers would likely lead to increased 
efficiency in Congress, and *that* isn't in the interests of any of us. 
These folks 
are in the business of taking peoples' life, liberty and property, for fun,
profit, and ideology. Just about anything that slows them down, including
their own mind-numbing stupidity, is a good thing.

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36








From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep 22 22:57:06 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:57:06 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional   rights
In-Reply-To: <3429560f.30622794@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970922221458.00773a94@popd.netcruiser>

At 11:28 AM 9/22/97 GMT, phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
>People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
>messages delivers.  What about spamming?  
>
>Another Question:  Since such a plugin uses (has the hooks for) encryption,
>would it be covered by ITAR?  (i'm asking because I'm seriously considering
>making the eudora plugin)

The Eudora plugin should support remailer chaining and PGP encryption for
personal messages, as well as give the user the opportunity to BE a
remailing service.

>Anyway, the remailer 'network' needs to be strengthened.  Right now,
>Raph's pinging service (or whatever private idaho uses) is the only way
>private idaho can tell which servers are up.  Attack this point, and
>reliability when chaining remailers becomes uncertain.    Imagine a TLA
>co-opting this service and altering the list to favor government friendly
>remailers.
>
>It also needs to be easier to set up a remailer.  I'd like to see the
>software distributed in .deb and .rpm packages for Linux.  Once set up, the
>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
>more automated it is, the better.

How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?

>>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)
>
>Private idaho needs to be rewritten (in Java possibly) to be simpler to
>operate.  There should be one button to press to send a message without
>messing with what type and which remailers to use; the program could choose
>these things randomly (ok, it's not the best thing to do, but at least it's
>easy to use).  It also should be updated to use pgp 5.0 (not exclusively,
>of course).  If possible, also add support for the Eternity Service.

The remailer plugin should be able to:
1. Scan all available sources of remailer availability / reliability.
2. Allow the user to select a pool of trusted remailers.
3. Allow the user to select the number of remailers in the chain.
4. Randomly select remailers from the pool.
5. Encrypt / add headers to the outgoing message to match the selected
remailers.

>Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
>defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
>Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)

Look for AOL and other ISP's to automatically run a "noise reduction"
filter (as in CoolEdit 96) on .wav / .jpg files if GAK becomes mandatory.
CoolEdit's noise reduction filter is great for removing tape hiss and other
constant background noise from sound files, (it can make a cheap tape deck
sound like a cheap CD player) but it would obviously destroy any stegoed
data. The noise reduction algorithm is very processor intensive--it takes
my 586/133 about an hour to NR a 3 minute stereo 44 KHz recording, but I'm
sure you could set up a "light" version of the filter that would destroy
stego data without taking as long.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Sep 22 23:03:43 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:03:43 +0800
Subject: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple to USWest
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> (Then of course there's White's "compromise" language floating around that
> would double these criminal penalties. And Oxley -- in an effort to split
> the coalition -- is circulating draft language that might exempt some forms
> of mundane crypto-devices from his crypto-ban. Who knows? Maybe some
> Congressmen would vote for Oxley II in hopes of staving off Oxley I. But
> all these "compromises" are dangerous.)

Do I understand you correctly in that they are planing to double the
dracoinian 5/10 year proposed penalties to 10/20 years?
 
> Advice to undersigned firms: Tell your lobbyists to block //all//
> encryption legislation that might come out of Congress. Then fire them.
> Spend the millions of dollars on R&D. Get crypto in the hands of the
> grandmothers of America. Or if you're not going to fire your lobbyists, at
> least order them not to try and push a bill through. I know it's difficult;
> that's all they know how to do. But, you see, not only is such a plan
> doomed to fail, it likely will backfire and threaten all of our freedoms in
> the process.

I don't know if I should be happy or sad about Declan's recent tone of
writing. "Forget about working /with/ DC". I certainly never wanted to be
right. There was a time Declan at least hoped that /some/ good might come
out of DC. It doesn't seem he thinks this anymore.

Hell, Declan almost sounds like Tim a year ago. Will he contribute to the
suitcase fund a year from now?

BTW, sponsors wishing to remain anonymous have raised the pot to $820,000.
This is by far the highest I have ever seen it.

 -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From zooko at xs4all.nl  Tue Sep 23 03:48:27 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:48:27 +0800
Subject: MatchPseudonym Technology / Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms
Message-ID: <199709231037.MAA05964@xs2.xs4all.nl>




Igor wrote:
>
> That cypherpunk project came to fruition a year and a half ago.


Kudos!


You are the greatest!  I look forward to spreading and 
evolution of your software.


Regards,

Zooko






From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 23 08:21:30 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:21:30 +0800
Subject: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple toUSWest
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 07:52 -0700 9/23/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>Do I understand you correctly in that they are planing to double the
>dracoinian 5/10 year proposed penalties to 10/20 years?

That's correct. That White draft was circulated last week at a crypto
coalition meeting that dozens of businesses, lobbyists, and advocacy groups
attended. Sadly, I'm told that only the ACLU, Americans for Tax Reform, and
(to a similar extent though they were most concened with Bernstein) EFF
argued for a hardnosed "no compromise" position.

(EPIC would probably have taken the same position, but they were out of
town. Eagle Forum also says "no compromise," but they weren't at the
meeting.)

I spoke to an industry lobbyist yesterday about crypto-in-a-crime. "We
don't oppose what the ACLU is doing in trying to get it removed," the
lobbyist told me. But this isn't a make-or-break issue for you, is it? "No,
it isn't." In other words, they're more than happy to give it up as a
trading chit if they can get cash in on relaxed export controls.

>I don't know if I should be happy or sad about Declan's recent tone of
>writing. "Forget about working /with/ DC". I certainly never wanted to be
>right. There was a time Declan at least hoped that /some/ good might come
>out of DC. It doesn't seem he thinks this anymore.

I certainly believe there are some duties a federal government should
fulfill. On Net-issues, the federal government can do some good by either
reversing bad policies or adopting a stance of regulatory forbearance.

On copyright, the courts should decide the limits of ISP liability. On
crypto, too, the courts are the safest route. On Net-taxes, though, there's
a role for Congress to play in considering Cox-Wyden. On telecom, the best
way to get bandwidth to the home is by aggressive deregulation, which means
more fixes to the just-amended Telecom Act. On content, Congress should of
course do nothing except perhaps repeal some of the more censorhappy laws
around. Same with Net-gambling.

All in all, these issues require minimal action or no action. Especially on
encryption: this Congress will never take a pro-crypto approach. The law
enforcement lobbyists are simply too strong and too effective. No new laws
are better than bad new laws.

-Declan







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep 23 08:31:01 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:31:01 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 20 / Text Version of "The True Story of the Internet" Part 3
Message-ID: <199709231515.RAA26501@basement.replay.com>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Prelude to the Past

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Chapter Title
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Did you notice the way 'Mojave' was misspelled?" the Shadow asked the
Rich
Man.

Bad BillyG nodded slowly, looked up at the Shadow and said, "I also
noticed
that he used the 'replay' remailer and spoke of 'deja vu.'"

"Indio?" the Shadow asked Bad BillyG, not having to wait for his
confirmation to know that the anonymous writer was referring to the
Wackenhut/Cabazon weapons fencing operation.

"I've got someone checking the physical site as we speak," BillyG told
the
Shadow, "but I think it's obvious that the references to Lefty and the
tassel-haired young woman firing a shotgun with one hand means that
these
people recreated an event that happened over a decade and a half ago,
only�"

Bad BillyG paused to swallow, "�only this time, the targets are us, not
them."

The Shadow and his earthly compatriot turned their attention to the
anonymous post, once again, confirming what they already knew, and
scanning
for more details of the writers veiled message, therein.

Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
To: cypherpunks at toad.com

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE? -
sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
"a billionaire to be named later."

A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"
after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right
hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and what
is obscenity."

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate
logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues
surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,
with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action by
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife
spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone
here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade
rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small
propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the last
and most meaningful statement of the day.

After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between
them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night
phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of the
participants in the activities.

I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally
mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent
strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup
trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity, knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately did,
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site, which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first
arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja vu, as if I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly
transpired.

Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later put down the 'Not-News Gorilla NutWork
Rocket-Launched' post and scanned portions of the INSLAW/Octopus report
from
NaziWorld, once again.

The INSLAW Octopus
Software piracy, conspiracy, cover-up, stonewalling, covert action: Just
another decade at the Department of Justice
By Richard L. Fricker
�
But prior to his arrest in 1991, Riconosciuto provided the Hamiltons
with an
affidavit that once again brought Brian into the Inslaw picture. "I
engaged
in some software development and modification work in 1983 and 1984 on
proprietary PROMIS computer software product," he stated. "The copy of
PROMIS on which I worked came from the US Department of Justice. Earl W.
Brian made it available to me through Wackenhut (a security company with
close FBI and CIA connections) after acquiring it from Peter Videnieks,
who
was then a Department of Justice contracting official with the
responsibility for PROMIS software. I performed the modifications to
PROMIS
in Indio, Calif.; Silver Springs, Md.; and Miami, Fla."

The modifications included a telecommunications "trap door" that would
let
the US Government eavesdrop on any other organization using the pirated
software, Riconosciuto said.

�

Although Brian denies any involvement with Inslaw or Riconosciuto, the
House
Judiciary Committee received a report from a special task force of the
Riverside County, Calif., Sheriff's Office and District Attorney,
stating
that on the evening of Sept. 10, 1981, arms dealers, buyers and various
intelligence operatives gathered at the Cabazon Indian Reservation near
Indio, Calif., for a demonstration of night warfare weapons. The
demonstration was orchestrated jointly by Wackenhut and the Cabazon
Indian
tribe. (Many published reports allege that the Wackenhut/Cabazon joint
venture served as a weapons fencing operation for Oliver North's Iran-
Contra dealings.)

Bad BillyG involved in that mess?
A Player To Be Named Later shook his head negatively, to himself. It
seemed
unlikely, but it would explain a few things which had been troubling
him,
lately. And it would mean that the anonymous poster knew enough intimate
details of an event that had been shrouded in deep secrecy to pose a
threat
to all those connected with the Indio affair.
It would also explain the apparently strange ending to a major play by
the
news and computer industry heavyweights calling themselves the 'Internet
Content Coalition' that the anonymous post seemed to be threatening.

For starters, Microsoft made an immediate about-face, within hours of
the
anonymous post, on their plans to include technology supporting the
Internet
Content Coalition's aims in their next version of Internet Explorer.

>From - Wed Aug 06 19:31:05 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely
sometime
next year."

>Anonymous wrote:
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
> > burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."

There wasn't much doubt that 'Nobody' was pointing out to one and all
that
the Internet Content Coalition was under siege, and that the opening
salvo
by 'Anonymous' had brought the largest corporation in history to its
knees,
in surrender.
A bold claim, but would this declaration of war in the battle of the
giants
to seize control of the official reigns of news and information on the
InterNet be backed up in the end, by across the board results?

A Player To Be Named Later pored over a FreeAmerica report on the
resurrection of the Inslaw ghosts in the mid-1990's.

Federal Corruption
INSLAW

Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995

Congressman Jack Brooks of Texas has opened a new investigation into the
INSLAW case. Brooks is investigating allegations that Justice Department
officials, including Meese, conspired to force INSLAW into bankruptcy in
order to deliver the firm's software to a rival company. The rival firm,
according to court records and law enforcement officials, was headed by
Earl
W. Brian, a former Cabinet officer under then California Governor Ronald
Reagan and a longtime friend of several high-ranking Republican
officials.

[Earl W. Brian! Who had seized control of United Press International
(UPI)
in a deal every bit as shady as the Inslaw affair�]

On March 21, 1992, [Michael] Riconoscuito stated in an affidavit to the
Court and Congress, and before he was arrested, the following:

   * During the 1980s he served as the Director of Research for a joint
     venture between the Wackenhut Corporation of Coral Gables, Florida,
and
     the Cabazon Band of Indians of Indio, California. The joint venture
was
     located on the Cabazon reservation.

[Near the Salton Sea, a long-time haunt of the Author, who brought a
strange
variety of computer gurus to the area, purportedly for Corvina fishing,
but
what was the real story about their travels there?]

   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture sought to develop and/or
     manufacture certain materials that are used in military and
national
     security operations, including night vision goggles, machine guns,
     fuel- air explosives, and biological and chemical warfare weapons.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture was intended to support the
needs
     of a number of FOREIGN governments and forces, including forces and
     governments in Central America and the Middle East. The Contras in
     Nicaragua represented one of the most important priorities for the
     joint venture.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture maintained close liaison with
     'certain elements' of the United States Government, including
     representatives of intelligence, military and law enforcement
agencies.
   * Among the frequent visitors to the Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture
were
     Peter Videnieks of the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington,
D.C.,
     and a close associate of Videnieks by the name of Earl W. Brian.
Brian
     is a private businessman who lives in Maryland and who has
maintained
     close business ties with the U.S. intelligence community for many
     years.
   * The purpose of the PROMIS software modification that I made in 1983
and
     1984 was to support a plan for the implementation of PROMIS in law
     enforcement and intelligence agencies worldwide. Earl W. Brian was
     spearheading the plan for this worldwide use of the PROMIS computer
     software.
   * Some of the modifications that I made were specifically designed to
     facilitate the implementation of PROMIS within two agencies of the
     Government of Canada: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and
the
     Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS). Earl W. Brian
would
     check with me from time to time to make certain that the work would
be
     completed in time to satisfy the schedule for the RCMP and CSIS
     implementations of PROMIS.

[The RCMP and CSIS�the same entities that the Author had shared a
Russian
language class with in Regina, Saskatchewan, just before the Moscow
Olympics. Who had he encountered in that group who would later be
instrumental in acquiring the PROMIS software for the Canadians?]

   * The propriety version of PROMIS, as modified by me, was, in fact
     implemented in both the RCMP and the CSIS in Canada. It was my
     understanding that Earl W. Brian had sold this version of PROMIS to
the
     Government of Canada.

   *

A Player To Be Named Later suddenly remembered the email to the
CypherPunks
mailing list and the corporate headquarters of the Internet Content
Coalition that had been forwarded from the LMBoyd Website, which was
known
to be a forum for the Circle of Eunuchs to send veiled messages to set
the
stage for their more pointed attacks on the Dark Forces.
It was an email that was sent out when the dark specter of the Internet
Content Coalition first began to flex their muscles.

>From - Fri Jul 25 19:38:14 1997
Subject: Sampler: July 25
To: multiple recipients of 
======================================================
The serial killer does in one person at a time in
intervals. The mass killer murders however many in a
single mad rampage. The mass killer is usually suicidal.
The serial killer isn't.
�
Q. Does any animal deliberately stalk human beings for
food?
A. None but the polar bear. At least, such is the claim
of the experts.
======================================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

"Of course!"

A Player To Be Named Later slapped his forehead, amazed that he had not
seen
the connection sooner between the 'mass murderer, serial killer stalking
humans from the North' email, the Not-News threat singling out "a
billionaire to be named later," and the email sent to the Internet
Content
Coalition players just before they held the meeting where they
effectively
folded their hand in their attempt to take over control over defining
what
was 'official' news on the InterNet, and what was not.

He reread, once again, the anonymous post sent just hours before the
Internet Content Coalition's grand agenda bit the dust:

"In July, Anson Ng, a reporter for the Financial Times of London
was shot and KILLED in Guatemala. He had reportedly been trying
to interview an American there named Jimmy Hughes, a one-time
director of security for the Cabazon Indian Reservation secret projects.
"In April, a Philadelphia attorney named Dennis Eisman was found
DEAD, killed by a single bullet in his chest. According to a former
federal official who worked with Eisman, the attorney was found dead
in the parking lot where he had been due to meet with a woman who
had crucial evidence to share substantiating Riconosciuto's claims.
"Both Eisman's and Ng's deaths were declared 'suicides' by
authorities.
"Fred Alvarez, a Cabazon tribal leader who was in vocal opposition
to the developments on the reservation, was found SHOT TO DEATH
WITH TWO FRIENDS in 1981. Their murder remains unsolved.

At last, the whole bizarre, implausible scenario finally came together
in A
Player To Be Named Later's mind.

The Author's presence near the belly of the beast in Indio had not been
a
mere coincidence. When the Internet Content Coalition made their move,
the
Circle of Eunuchs already had the information they needed to connect
several
of the players in the proposed news cartel with the trail of deaths
surrounding both those involved in the INSLAW debacle and the reporters
closing in on the real story involved.
And they had made it more than plain that some of those involved in the
Wackenhut-Cabazon arms deals were now playing for the opposition�and
that
bullets don't discriminate between the rich and the poor.

A Player To Be Named Later was still mystified as to how the Magic
Circle
had been able to pull off such a bold, in-your-face maneuver on some of
the
Titans of the news and computer industries.
In the early days, after the dissemination of "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre"
had begun in 1989, the Circle of Eunuchs had come under fierce attack
from a
variety of sources from within the secret government hunting them.
Mysterious deaths, established careers going up in flames, overnight.
The
Magic Circle had quickly disappeared far into the underground of
computer
society.
Then, the Circle had begun to show their hand, more and more, now
reaching
the point where they could apparently do battle with the heavyweights
working behind the scenes with Gomez and the Dark Allies. But A Player
To Be
Named Later hadn't seen any indication that the Circle of Eunuchs had
managed to gain possession of a hole-card that could account for�unless�

"Casolaro!" A Player To Be Named Later whispered, as if speaking the
name
aloud might bring down fire from the heavens. Quickly, he did a disk
search
for a vaguely remembered article from Conspiracy Nation�

Forwarded:
>From the Patriot Archives ftp site at: ftp://tezcat.com/patriot

                      Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 3 Num.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          ("Quid coniuratio est?")

THE OCTOPUS
===========
By Karen Bixman
(For The People *News Reporter*, 11/14/94)
�
On the morning of August 11, 1991, Danny Casolaro was found dead
in the bathroom of his hotel room at the Sheraton Hotel in
Martinsburg, West Virginia. His wrists had been slashed ten
times; his briefcase and notes were missing. The authorities
labeled the death a suicide, and before Casolaro's family had
been contacted, the body was embalmed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail
address, send a message in the form "subscribe conspire My Name"
to listproc at prairienet.org -- To cancel, send a message in the
form "unsubscribe conspire" to listproc at prairienet.org but with
absolutely nothing in the subject line of the message.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Damn! He had nailed it!

Karen Bixman's article had confirmed everything that A Player To Be
Named
Later had increasingly suspected as his mind pored over the mountain of
information which had seemed so tentatively, but treacherously, related.
Bixman had laid down an utterly astounding, twisted trail of closely
connected, mysterious deaths and blatant murders surrounding the INSLAW
and
Iran-Contra misdeeds that completed the connections between the past and
current players in the battle for control of world supremacy in computer
information and communications.

What's more, the timing of the disappearance of Danny Casolaro's
extensive
notes on the winding serpent of evil surrounding these affairs coincided
with the Magic Circle's unmistakable reentry into manifest participation
in
the battle against the Evil One and the Dark Forces under his command.

The Coupe de Gras, however, was the source of the Conspiracy Nation
newsletter.
Prairienet.org! From whence sprang the apparently unrelated Bureau42
clique
who had seized the opportunity to host 'The True Story of the InterNet'
transcripts, despite the troubled and bloody history of those who had
done
so in the past.
Bianca had mentioned to Mike Denney, at Basis Inc., that she had been
prepared to hack the Bureau42 servers when they came under attack upon
placing 'Part II' and 'Part III' on their system, but that they had
managed
to clear up the problems that developed on their own, and had done so in
a
surprisingly short period of time.

Only one thing was still bothering A Player To Be Named Later.
Microsoft had been the first member of the Internet Content Coalition to
publicly fold their hand in the battle to control news and information
ratings across the InterNet, but Gates seemed, on the surface, to be
less
visibly connected to the extremely messy past misconduct of the others,
and
thus seemed to have the least to lose if the shit hit the fan.
Gate's quick concession to the veiled threats had definitely been the
catalyst in causing the hasty retreat of the other members of the news
cartel that had seemed to be on the drawing board for quite some time in
the
plans of Gomez and the Dark Allies�but why?

Bill Gates had not become the richest and most overtly powerful
individual
on the face of the earth by fighting against the grand designs of the
Evil
One, but he seemed to be playing his cards close to his chest, in a
manner
that suggested that he had an agenda of his own that might not run
exactly
parallel to that of the Dark Forces.

What was BillyG's game?
A Player To Be Named Later had been involved in the grand battle taking
place behind the scenes of everyday reality for long enough to know that
it
was all done with mirrors.

"And each man, in his time, plays many parts." he said, perplexed for
the
moment.

"To Shakespeare!" A Player To Be Named Later said, lifting his glass in
toast. "A member of the Magic Circle, if there ever was one."
"If there ever was one�" he repeated, smiling at his unintentional
inside
joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Shadow was watching Bad BillyG closely, for any sign of subterfuge
in
his inner demeanor.
"You're certain about Blanc Weber?" he asked, once again.

"Well, I could be wrong, but we've investigated her thoroughly, and
every
indication is that all that nonsense about her development of the
HydroCube
is just that-nonsense."

BillyG shrugged his shoulders, apparently unconcerned with what he
regarded
as a small, internal company matter.
"I could have her isolated, but I don't really see much point. If she is
hiding something, then it's probably better not to let her know how
closely
she is being monitored. Perhaps you should put some of the Dark Allies
on
her tail for a while, in case there is something that my people have
missed."

"No, I don't think that will be necessary." the Shadow replied,
casually.
He had instructed his men to monitor Blanc Weber's movements and
activities
months ago, as well as those of the spooks Bad BillyG had assigned to
watch
her. His own spooks had likewise turned up nothing positive, but he had
pressed the matter with Gates in order to judge his reaction just the
same.

"Well, her digital implant went according to plan," BillyG added, "so we
will be able to yank her chain on a moment's notice, if it becomes
necessary
to do so, in the future."

The "billionaire to be named later" sat back and allowed himself to
indulge
in the luxury of looking forward to the moment when A Player To Be Named
Later would find out much, much more than he really wanted to know about
Bad
BillyG's plans for the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle who were
attempting to interfere with his own vision of the direction the future
of
the InterNet should take at this nadir point in time, when the battle
for
control of virtual reality was about to explode into every single facet
of
human life
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos thought about the forefather of his technical namesake,
who
had so far managed to walk with the Evil One as far as the bridge in his
rise to riches, fame and power a hundred years in the past.
The Cowboy, Priscilla, Alexis, Jonathan, and d'Shauneaux were likewise
joined with him in contemplation of this paradoxical figure from the
past
whose role in the great battle between the Forces of Light and the
Forces of
Darkness had remained an enigma throughout the history and legends of
the
Circle of Eunuchs.

Friend or foe, there was no denying that Billy the Kid was going to play
a
major role in the direction that the thundering train of history was
about
to take as it approached the crossroads of destiny on its way to an
ElectroMagnetic Future where freedom would hinge on the free flow of
Taoist
bytes routing around the enslaving chains of Fascist bits that Gomez and
the
Dark Allies had been carefully laying in place since the dawn of the
Computer Era.

Bubba Rom Dos, sage and savant, deviant and derelict, raised a glass of
"Bubba's Special Reserve" in toast, proclaiming as the tattered remnants
of
the Magic Circle joined him in his libations, "To Billy the Kid�or Bad
BillyG�to the things that he did�or to what he may be�"

The Trei Transponder began softly humming in the background, as if
trying to
tell the small assembly something very, very important for them to know.
Then it fell silent�

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger "
"That's not a government backdoor . It's a hacker's backdoor
."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Sep 23 10:21:35 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:21:35 +0800
Subject: Elliptic Curve library for visual basic
Message-ID: <199709231707.KAA12788@proxy4.ba.best.com>



Re release:

http://www.jim.com/jamesd/tools.htm


An OLE extension to visual basic, written in C++,
providing elliptic curve cryptographic operations, SHA1 
and big true random numbers to visual basic

I have re released the cryptographic extension to Visual Basic 

This release is thoroughly tested, and I have therefore raised
the version number from beta to 1.0

I have added visual basic program that tests and demonstrates the 
KongTools functions to the release.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From jacosta at americasttv.com  Tue Sep 23 10:39:36 1997
From: jacosta at americasttv.com (Joe Acosta)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:39:36 +0800
Subject: Baby Bells Join In Fighting US Encryption Control
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970923102250.00807e20@pop.americasttv.com>





>From 





                                 [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ] 

               [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport |
Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] 

                                    [ Reuters | Wired | ZDNet ]



Tuesday September 23 10:04 AM EDT 

Baby Bells Join In Fighting US Encryption Control

By Aaron Pressman 

WASHINGTON - Five of the influential "Baby Bell" regional telephone
companies on Monday joined a coalition urging Congress to reject
a proposal that would give U.S. law enforcement agencies access to
otherwise secure computer files. 

The phone companies, along with dozens of high-tech companies and business
groups, signed a letter opposing proposed limits on
encryption technology used to protect computer files from outside access or
interference. Louis Freeh, director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, has urged Congress to enact the limits. 

The Baby Bells and other opponents of encryption limits sent their letter
to U.S. Rep. Thomas Bliley, Republican of Virginia, chairman of
the House Commerce Committee. 

Later this week, the committee is expected to consider an encryption bill
authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican.
Prompted by Freeh, the committee is currently leaning toward amending
Goodlatte's encryption bill to impose new limits. 

Five Baby Bells -- Ameritech, Bell Atlantic Corp., BellSouth Corp. , SBC
Communications and US West -- signed the letter opposing the
restrictions. 

Other groups signing the letter ranged across the political spectrum from
civil libertarians at the Center for Democracy and Technology
(CDT) to conservatives at Americans for Tax Reform. 

This would be a direct hit at the telecommunications infrastructure," said
CDT executive director Jerry Berman who helped organize
Monday's letter. It's an unmitigated disaster. " 

The letter was also signed by International Business Machines, which had
previously been seen as one of the few companies not openly
opposing the Clinton administration's policy restricting encryption
exports. But the domestic limits being considered by the Commerce
Committee would go well beyond current policy. 

Encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable
without a password or software key," are increasingly being
used to secure communications and electronic commerce over the Internet. 

But the FBI and other law enforcement agencies argue that encryption will
also be used by criminals and terrorists to thwart wiretaps and
police surveillance. 

The amendment being considered by the committee would require all
encryption products sold in the United States to include a back door"
allowing the government to crack any message covertly. 

[ SNIP for FAIR USE ]




 






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep 23 11:00:12 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:00:12 +0800
Subject: Random character stereograms and stego
Message-ID: <199709231754.TAA13096@basement.replay.com>



Here's an application which is well suited for steganography.  This is
a random-character stereogram.  Look at it with a monospace font and
unfocus your eyes so the two blocks of text merge, and you will see
the message HI displayed:

VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg  VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg
bWVzc2FnZSB3aGljaCBp  bWVc2AFnZB3xaGljaCBp
cyBiZWluZyBzZW50IHZp  cyBZWmluZBzvZW50IHZp
YSBzdGVnYW5vZ3JhcGh5  YSBdGVnYW5v9Z3JhcGh5
LgpIYWQgdGhpcyBiZWVu  LgpYW1QgdhpBcyBiZWVu
IGFuIGFjdHVhbCBtZXNz  IGFIGoFjdVhXbCBtZXNz
YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo  YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo
YXZlIGJlZW4gZW5jcnlw  YXZIGJlZW4vgZW5jcnlw
dGVkCnVzaW5nIGEgbWV0  dGVkCVzaUW5nIGEgbWV0
aG9kIHdoaWNoIHByb2R1  aG9kIdoa4WNoIHByb2R1
Y2VzIG91dHB1dCB3aGlj  Y2VzI91dAHB1dCB3aGlj
aCBpcyBpbmRpc3Rpbmd1  aCBcyBpbmRnpc3Rpbmd1
aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh  aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh
bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K      bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K

This was just done manually, so it's pretty crude.  It would be easy
to write a program to display any message desired.  People could get
in the habit of sending long vertical stereograms saying "GO GIANTS"
or "MICROSOFT SUX" or whatever they felt like at the moment.  The
program could either generate its own random numbers or else suck
in random data from a disk file.

In this case, if you take the left block and reformat it so that it can
be base64 decoded, you will see a short message.  (Unix users can
pass the left block through "mimencode -u".)  In a real stego
application the message would be encrypted in 'stealth' form so it
was indistinguishable from random bits to anyone who did not hold
the decryption key.

This could even catch on as a legal "thumb your nose at the spooks" fad,
people adding random sterograms at the end of their messages.  You
could even have an active .sig which had a constant message but used
different random characters each time.  They wouldn't actually be sending
anything but there would be no way to be sure.

Some people say they'll just forbid transmitting data that looks random,
but realistically, that would be very unlikely to happen.






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Tue Sep 23 11:12:31 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:12:31 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Sep23.140119edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Will Rodger wrote, quoting me:
> 
> > >I spent the weekend in West Virginia, where folks are more than 
> > happy to
> > >gossip with (and about) their neighbors. Nobody would try to shut 
> > them up
> > >through force of law. This principle does not disappear when the
> > >information being shared is digital.
> 
> > That's a bold assertion, but not one that squares easily with the 
> > half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books at the federal 
> > level.
> 
> Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
> violate?

Slander.

Were I to maliciously spread a rumor, and you got fired, or suffered
economic loss because of my gossip, you could sue me.

> And yes, some of the "half-dozen or so privacy laws already on the books"
> are misguided. Just as many argue laws against drugs, gambling, or
> FCC rules prohibiting the broadcast of "indecent" material are also
> unconstitutional -- and a waste of our police's time.

True, but there is also a large body of law that is civil instead of
criminal.  While we are on social policy, police also enforce
environmental laws which take property and affirmative action which
violate all kinds of freedom of association.

I can be damaged by information - which may be either wrong or out of
context.  Should I have no right to recover or correct such things?  If no
one had the right to the information in the first place (is personal
information part of my personal property?), do I have any rights if it is
both true and damaging (e.g. a felon with an expunged conviction - they
can legally answer "no" if asked if ever convicted of a felony, but the
historical record may show something different).

When we talk about reputation capital, it becomes something that can be
vandalized or stolen.  Were any other form of capital stolen or
vandalized, I could go for damages.

> I don't think the issue is whether or not individuals should "care" about
> others talking about them behind their back. I think the question is how
> to address it: through the force of law or not. I may not want to shut up
> the Net-Nazis through the force of law (I would argue against it), but I
> would certainly "care" what they say and speak out against it myself. 
> 
> Not all wrongs can be solved through the law.

And the converse, just because there is no law (or in the VPs words: "no
controlling legal authority") does not mean it is not a wrong.

virtue destroys vice, and truth destroys error.  What there is no solution
for is ignorance and apathy, and laws will neither inform people or get
them to take action.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From rubin at research.att.com  Tue Sep 23 11:43:03 1997
From: rubin at research.att.com (Avi Rubin)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:43:03 +0800
Subject: Mail archive now available for Crowds mailing list
Message-ID: <199709231823.OAA12512@mgoblue.research.att.com>



There is now a hypertext archive of the crowds-talk mailing list
at http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds/archive/

It will be updated regularly.






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Sep 23 11:44:29 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:44:29 +0800
Subject: distributed ratings & repudiable public signatures (was Re: encouraging digital pseudonyms)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709231830.TAA00303@server.test.net>




Easier to use pseudonyms would be nice, yes.

Another interesting "service" which really requires client support,
which would improve reading efficiency would be mailing list software
with distributed ratings.  A web based archive with cgi-bins to
accumulate ratings on posts would be feasible for you people who don't
have pay per second.

Then you construct your own matrix of reliance on individual rating
providors (other list readers), and you have probably a pretty good
estimate of your own likely interest in a given post.

Applies to non-anonymous posts too.  Plenty of trash ends up on the
list that hasn't come through a remailer.


We've got two conflicting desires with respect to persistent identity
and proof of authorship.  One desire is that you would like to provide
a verifiable persistent persona whilst remaining anonymous.  The other
desire is to be able to repudiate your signature.  (There might be
some value in having repudiability if you get a RICO conspiracy case
against US cpunks via Jim Bell.)

One tentative technical solution to this situation which I'm not sure
has been discussed before is to actually try this, in a way which
gives some non-repudiability, possibly quite good non-repudiability
for a cypherpunks purpose, but to at the same time arrange that it
would be fairly repudiable in legal terms. 

So how do we do that?

Well how about we arrange the signature keys, so that a combination of
relatively trusted cypherpunks could forge this public signature if
they colluded.  Say we arrange that all 4 of Lucky, Tim, John Young
and Black Unicorn have to collude to forge a signature.

That would probably be pretty good insurance against forgery for a
public posting purpose for the cypherpunks lists. 

At the same time if Tim signs his post saying "I bid $800k for that
suitcase nuke", and I post via a remailer an offer signed with my own
key of another $50k, well you-all would probably fairly confident that
I posted this due to the signature, despite forgery possibility.  A
jury would have to however swallow the claim that this signature could
have been forged by the collusion of two Nyms (the caped green one,
and some one known "as black unicorn"), and two crypto anarchist
types, well to them that's probably stretching belief.

(btw the idea of repudiable signatures for private email, where the
signature is constructed so that the recipient could forge it is an
established technique; it will provide the recipient with very good
confidence in the signature, yet it will be one persons word against
anothers if it comes to dispute.  Use remailers to enhance the effect,
otherwise people will be arguing that it's not forged as proved by
mail logs etc)

A general principle with repudiable signatures I think is that to
maximise the pluasibility of a repudiation you should use remailers to
deliver all your publically posted email.  With good tools this would
be no problem to list members, and would look like a real mess I think
to someone trying to prove authorship of disputed documents.

Fund pledge: Nuke them till they glow!  Any other donations :-)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:30 AM -0700 9/23/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Easier to use pseudonyms would be nice, yes.
>
>Another interesting "service" which really requires client support,
>which would improve reading efficiency would be mailing list software
>with distributed ratings.  A web based archive with cgi-bins to
>accumulate ratings on posts would be feasible for you people who don't
>have pay per second.
>
>Then you construct your own matrix of reliance on individual rating
>providors (other list readers), and you have probably a pretty good
>estimate of your own likely interest in a given post.

I'll argue STRONGLY for the first item, the one Igor Chudov says he has
already implemented (I plan to take a look). And I'll argue STRONGLY
AGAINST the second item, the ratings idea.

Why? Because I've seen at least several major efforts, and even some
functional versions, namely, on the Extropians list. They viewed this as a
major tool for increasing the quality of discussions. It wasn't.

(The "Firefly" system, if I recall correctly, does this for music. Similar
problems. Sparseness and all sorts of basic ontological problems with such
ratings.)

I am obviously not saying others might not pull it off this time, and
obviously they're welcome to try. But few of us want to spend time rating
the posts of others, or even clicking a button (where? our Eudora mailers?
sending messages back to the ratings service? arggh.) to rate the posts and
reputations of others.

My best filter is deciding who to filter into my trash folders. And
learning to delete posts in a few seconds of glancing.

Your mileage may vary, but I'm willing to bet this is not a truly important
project.

- --Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCgTe1K3AvrfAt9qEQLpBQCgrzGsy3sIXPJgITQfhdgFbKk/o8oAoLFL
aRDmrnqSYYFzalaubVbVmT5d
=xLXM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Sep 23 13:05:23 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:05:23 +0800
Subject: Coalition letter opposing Oxley amendment -- from Apple toUSWest
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709231846.TAA00945@server.test.net>




Declan McCullagh  writes:
> Lucky Green writes:
> >I don't know if I should be happy or sad about Declan's recent tone of
> >writing. "Forget about working /with/ DC". I certainly never wanted to be
> >right. There was a time Declan at least hoped that /some/ good might come
> >out of DC. It doesn't seem he thinks this anymore.
> 
> [case by case examples where tbe best thing US government could do
> is repeal laws]
> 
> All in all, these issues require minimal action or no action. Especially on
> encryption: this Congress will never take a pro-crypto approach. The law
> enforcement lobbyists are simply too strong and too effective. No new laws
> are better than bad new laws.

I'd interpret that lot to mean the best possible outcome would be to
disband Congress tomorrow.

Now where'd I put that deskfab 6 file.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> My moderation bot STUMP, available for free download at my Web Site
> http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov, actively supports pseudonymous posters
> who identify themselves with PGP.

It looks pretty good, but the description only says USENET. Can it also be
used on mailing-lists? If so, can someone who have the resources please
run it on the cypherpunks list (just the pseudonym feature please, not the
moderation)? 

> STUMP rewrites the From: field for pseudonymous letters, substituting
> the From: field to the user ID in the PGP key.

I suggest also putting the PGP key fingerprint into the From: field,
because the user ID can be forged, making it less useful for filtering
purposes.







From brianbr at together.net  Tue Sep 23 13:15:59 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:15:59 +0800
Subject: SAFE Bill and CongressCritter Staffs
Message-ID: <199709232006.QAA29633@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>1. Pick up the phone and call as many of the four
>   leading members of the Commerce committee as you can:
>
>     Chairman Thomas Bliley (R-VA)         (202) 225-2815
>     Ranking member John Dingell (D-MI)   (202) 225-4071
>     Rep. Tauzin (R-LA)                    (202) 225-4031
>     Rep. Markey (D-MA)                    (202) 225-2836
>
>2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue.

I called Bliley and Dingell, their offices are saying there is no
dedicated 'staffer' on encryption, that its all being handled by
Commerce Committee staff, both offices forwarded my call to the same
Commerce staff person. The staff person says that right now there are
no amendments formally being considered. That Oxley/Manton is just
talk for the moment. Anyway I spoke my piece and said I encouraged the
congressman to resist any amendments to HR695. He thanked me and said
goodbye.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCggQsdZgC62U/gIEQL7uACeKZeTN50JoiIO7WKhRbFPVWrjFV8AnAi1
XyP8wXVHO0MMAGakzq5Sg39l
=d4wo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  

 "Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate
  cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King Jr.







From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 23 13:19:13 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:19:13 +0800
Subject: IntraLoan
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ahernlj at swift.alaska.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:28:03 -0900
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
From: lance ahern 
Subject: IntraLoan
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: lance ahern 

A new service lets parties communicate online via
encrypted, digitally notarized documents posted on a
secure site.

http://www.techweb.com/wire/news/1997/09/0922bank.html

nothing special, just a working service...

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
Lance J. Ahern    Internet Alaska, Inc.
ahernlj at alaska.net        907-562-4638
unlimited - ppp - 33.6K - $19.50/month



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 23 13:21:41 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:21:41 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 14:02 -0400 9/23/97, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
>> Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
>> violate?
>
>Slander.
>
>Were I to maliciously spread a rumor, and you got fired, or suffered
>economic loss because of my gossip, you could sue me.

Not quite. Truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel. If the
gossip is true, which was my hypothetical, what's the cause of action?

>I can be damaged by information - which may be either wrong or out of
>context.  Should I have no right to recover or correct such things?  If no\

No, you should have no right to "recover" what I know about you. This is a
common beginner's misunderstanding. What you seem to be arguing for is
property rights in information. But that is misguided. To grant you such a
right would be to let you muzzle others who say truthful things, violating
their free speech rights.

That is why many "privacy laws" are censorship in disguise.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Sep 23 13:27:53 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:27:53 +0800
Subject: STUMP (Was: encouraging digital pseudonyms)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709232006.PAA30869@manifold.algebra.com>



Wei Dai wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > My moderation bot STUMP, available for free download at my Web Site
> > http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov, actively supports pseudonymous posters
> > who identify themselves with PGP.
> 
> It looks pretty good, but the description only says USENET. Can it also be
> used on mailing-lists? 

Yes, it can. Just replace the definition of RNEWS to the call to
resend script.

> If so, can someone who have the resources please
> run it on the cypherpunks list (just the pseudonym feature please, not the
> moderation)? 

I think that people are very leery of using anything with word 
"moderation" in it in cypherpunks mailing lists.

> > STUMP rewrites the From: field for pseudonymous letters, substituting
> > the From: field to the user ID in the PGP key.
> 
> I suggest also putting the PGP key fingerprint into the From: field,
> because the user ID can be forged, making it less useful for filtering
> purposes.

Mmmm, that's not a bad idea. I will think about it and
maybe put it in.

> 



	- Igor.






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 23 15:00:35 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:00:35 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709232203.RAA20128@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ray Arachelian 
> Subject: Re: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)

> That all depends on how they are set up to accept such key requests.  Fer
> instance, say they set up a nice litte web site that takes in credit
> cards... can we say ping flood boys and girls?

Can you say 'trace'?

> Suppose they set up a mail in system where you have to mail letters to
> them.  We simply go through every magazine we find and send subscribtion
> requests to that address.  As most mags will happily send a free issue
> this will do wonders...  Send them to "Joe Smith, Care Of Key Escrow..."

Can you say 'mail fraud'?

> If they set up a phone line, we call the phone line and keep it busy...

Can you say 'phone trace'?

> If they set up a system whereby mistakes have to be refiled, then we
> simply all march down there and demand that we get our keys registered and
> we always make mistakes in something or other, or we forget our ID's.

This works if it happens to be in the current location of an individual,
seems pretty unworkable considering the geographic distribution of cpunks.

> Denial of service attacks are always possible somehow or other...  It's a
> question of what we're willing to donate to the effort.

Provided you can pay the bill to keep it going AND you use some form of
anonymity (which I doubt you could hold up for long).


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From sunder at brainlink.com  Tue Sep 23 15:01:23 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:01:23 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> This will stop the "flooding attacks" which a free key escrow system would
> generate. It will also, sadly for us, put an end to many applications where
> keys are generated quickly, transiently, and on an ad hoc basis. There
> simply will be no time to register the keys, and the $10 (or whatever)
> processing fee will be unacceptable for these applications.

That all depends on how they are set up to accept such key requests.  Fer
instance, say they set up a nice litte web site that takes in credit
cards... can we say ping flood boys and girls?

Suppose they set up a mail in system where you have to mail letters to
them.  We simply go through every magazine we find and send subscribtion
requests to that address.  As most mags will happily send a free issue
this will do wonders...  Send them to "Joe Smith, Care Of Key Escrow..."
:)

If they set up a phone line, we call the phone line and keep it busy...
If they set up a system whereby mistakes have to be refiled, then we
simply all march down there and demand that we get our keys registered and
we always make mistakes in something or other, or we forget our ID's.

There may still be ways to spam them and keep them from implementing
anyway...  If not there's always Toto and the suitcase approach I
suppose.... And heck I'm sure someone is willing to donate $1M for such an
endeavor...

Denial of service attacks are always possible somehow or other...  It's a
question of what we're willing to donate to the effort.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 23 18:23:47 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:23:47 +0800
Subject: Congress & Crypto Roundup: Vote in Commerce cmte tomorrow
Message-ID: 



Both sides of the crypto-debate spent today jockeying for position before
an important vote tomorrow in the House Commerce committee. At issue is
whether the panel will follow the lead of the Intelligence committee and
restrict your ability to protect your privacy with whatever technology you
want. Law enforcement officials are pressing for a secret backdoor, and
Rep. Oxley was planning to offer a proposal (Oxley I) giving them just that.

* Today Oxley circulated a revised proposal that I think of as Oxley II.
It's designed to respond to some of the criticisms:
  http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/Oxley_Manton_rev.html

* Law professors sent a letter criticizing Oxley I:
  http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/lawprof-letter.htm

* Yesterday dozens of groups -- from Apple to USWest -- sent out a letter
criticizing Oxley I. (It's attached below.) The question is now: how many
of these groups will oppose Oxley II?

* Oxley is trying to carve off pieces of the alliance and get the Baby
Bells not to oppose Oxley II, Reuters reports below. Also, grassroots law
enforcement groups -- including some from California -- are sending their
own letters to support Oxley.

* Rep. Rick White is trying to cut a deal; he's proposing alternative,
compromise language. A note from his staff is attached below.

* Scientific and engineering professional societies, too, weighed in. I've
attached their note at the end of this message.

-Declan

--------------

>From White's staff:

>Congressman Rick White will offer an alternative to the Oxley/Manton
>substitute in order to preserve the SAFE bill while addressing some of
>the concerns of the law enforcement community.
>
>The White alternative would:
>
>1)  Give law enforcement the tools they needs.  The alternative would
>create a National Electronic Technologies Center (NETCenter) to serve
>local, state and federal law enforcement authorities by providing
>information and assistance regarding decryption technologies and
>techniques.  In addition the NETCenter would give law enforcement access
>to the tools they need to keep pace with changing technologies.
>
>2)  Tough on those who commit crimes by using encryption.  The
>alternative doubles the allowable jail time for those who break the law
>and commit crime and try to hide their tracks by use of encryption.
>
>3)  Study.  There has never been a study on a domestic key recovery
>system and the recent proposal by the FBI.  The White alternative calls
>for a six month study of domestic key recovery system to determine its
>effectiveness.
>
>4)  Americans should not have to turn over the keys to their electronic
>security.  The 4th Amendment protects our individual right(s) to keep
>protect our "effects."  The White alternative states that the federal
>government and the States cannot restrict the use of domestic encryption
>technologies and cannot condition the issuance of certificates of
>authentication -- which many believe will be necessary for electronic
>commerce to succeed -- on the use of a government-blessed key recovery
>system for encryption.

--------

September 22, 1997

The Hon. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr.
Chairman
House Commerce Committee
2125 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C.  20515

Dear Chairman Bliley:

We are writing to express our strong opposition to the Oxley-Manton
amendment to HR 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act
(SAFE), which the Commerce Committee will consider this week, and to any
form of government domestic controls on encryption.

The Oxley-Manton amendment would impose unprecedented restrictions on the
domestic manufacture and availability of encryption, thus potentially
compromising the security of the nation's telephone system and the Internet
alike.  The amendment would:

* prohibit the domestic manufacture, sale and importation of any encryption
  product or service unless the government is given immediate access to the
  plaintext of communications and stored files without the knowledge of the
  user;

* prohibit network service providers, including telephone companies and
  Internet service providers, from offering encryption products or services
  unless communications can be immediately read without the knowledge of the
  user; and

* give the Attorney General unprecedented, broad new powers to establish
  standards for encryption products and services.

Encryption technologies are the vital tools consumers and businesses need
to operate with security and privacy in the information age, and are a
cornerstone of electronic commerce.  Government domestic controls on
encryption are incompatible with the consumer, corporate, and national
security benefits of the national information infrastructure.  Numerous
communications products and services are now under development that
incorporate encryption as an essential feature.   Oxley-Manton will stifle
these new products and services, end the deployment of market-driven key
recovery systems,  and undermine the potential of the new communications
media for electronic commerce and the promotion of democratic values.

* Strong encryption will not only ensure privacy but also help prevent crime
  on the network.  However, by mandating trap doors in all domestic encryption
  products and communications networks, the Oxley-Manton amendment will make
  the personal records and communications of individuals and businesses more
  vulnerable to hackers, terrorists, industrial spies and other criminals.  Put
  at risk will be medical records, tax returns, private email, business
  proprietary information and transactions, attorney-client communications,
  and cellular phone conversations.

* Oxley-Manton's broad requirement for "immediate access" to decryption keys
  without knowledge of the user would force Americans to forfeit their
  constitutional right of privacy as a condition of participating in the
  information age.

* Oxley-Manton invites disastrous industrial policy.  It is industrial policy
  with criminal sanctions attached.  The amendment authorizes the Attorney
  General to promulgate technical requirements for all encryption products
  and gives the Department of Justice prior approval authority over all
  encryption systems for computers and telecommunications.  This will stifle
  innovation. It will drive encryption expertise out of this country.  The
  market should be allowed to develop its own solutions, many of which in fact
  will meet law enforcement's needs within our existing system of legal
  authorities and safeguards.

* Oxley-Manton will be ineffective in keeping strong encryption out of the
  hands of criminals.  Criminals and terrorist groups will not use a system
  that gives the government access to their decryption keys.  In fact, the
  FBI has admitted in Congressional testimony that criminals will always
  have access to strong unbreakable encryption.

We urge the Committee to reject the Oxley-Manton amendment and any other
form of domestic encryption control.

Sincerely,

ACL Datacom, Inc., California
American Electronics Association
American Automobile Manufacturers Association
Americans for Tax Reform
America Online, Inc.
Ameritech
ANS Communications, Inc., New York
Apple Computer, Inc.
Ashton Communications Corp., California and Texas
Bell Atlantic
Bell South
Bowles Farming Co., Inc.
Business Software Alliance
Center for Democracy and Technology
Commercial Internet eXchange Association
CommerceNet
Compaq Computer Corp.
CompuServe, Inc.
Computer & Communications Industry Association
Computer Software Industry Association
Consumer Electronic Manufacturers Association
Counsel Connect
Crest Industries, Inc.
DataXchange Network, Inc.
Direct Marketing Association
Electronic Data Systems, Corp.
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Electronic Messaging Association
Epoch Internet
Fiber Network Solutions, Inc., Columbus, Ohio
Genuity Inc., a Bechtel company
IBM Corp.
Information Technology Association of America
Information Technology Industry Council (ITI)
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - US Activities
International Communications Association
Intuit Inc.
Internet Providers Association of Iowa
Microsoft
National Association of Manufacturers
NETCOM On-Line Communication Services, Inc.
NetINS, Inc., Iowa
Novell
Online Banking Association
National Association of Manufacturers
National Retail Federation
Netscape Communications Corp.
Phoenix Media/Communications Group
Pro-Trade Group
PGP, Inc.
RSA Data Security, Inc.
SBC Communications Inc.
Securities Industry Association
Silicon Valley Software Industry Coalition
Software Forum
Software Publishers Association
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TheOnRamp Group, Inc., Ohio
Trusted Information Systems
United States Council for International Business
United States Internet Council
United States Telephone Association
U.S. Chamber of Commerce
US West
Voters Telecommunications Watch

---


Lawmakers try to get Baby Bells out of code debate
    By Aaron Pressman
   WASHINGTON, Sept 23 (Reuter) - With a Congressional panel set to vote
Wednesday on a proposal to impose domestic controls on encryption,
lawmakers backing the limits worked furiously to convince telephone
companies not to oppose them.
   Late Tuesday, officials at the five "Baby Bell" regional phone companies
 said they had not decided if last-minute changes to the proposal addressed
 their concerns.
   On Monday, the five companies joined dozens of high-tech firms and
business and Internet groups in a letter opposing the proposal authored by
Ohio Republican Rep. Mike Oxley.
   The restrictions, which would require all products sold in the United
States to include features allowing the government to covertly decode any
encrypted data, had been building strong momentum in Congress over the past
 month.
   And until the telephone company opposition surfaced two weeks ago, the
proposal was expected to be adopted easily by the House Commerce Committee.
 But the opposition of the influential Baby Bells stopped the process and
the committee decided to put off an earlier vote until Wednesday.
   In a recent revision, Oxley agreed to remove provisions which required
network service providers such as the phone companies to provide immediate
access to coded communications.
   Lawyers for the phone companies met Tuesday but did not reach a decision
 on the changes, according to Bell South spokesman Bill McCloskey. "The
meeting ended inconclusively," McCloskey said. "We have no verdict."
   Oxley's office remained confident that changes could be made to mollify
the phone companies. "We will get them onboard, there's no doubt," one
staffer said.
   While lawmakers worked to assuage the concerns of the Baby Bells, and
added a provision to appease the banking industry, leading science groups
and law professors separately issued new statements on Tuesday completely
opposing the Oxley restrictions.
   Professors from 23 law schools, including Yale, Harvard and Stanford,
said the restrictions were a "profound mistake" that would "contravene
fundamental principles of our constitutional tradition."
   Leading science, mathematics and engineering groups said the
restrictions were impeding on the advance of cryptography research thus
making all computer networks, including the Internet, less secure.
   The Oxley proposal will be considered as an amendment to a bill by
Virginia Republican Rep. Bob Goodlatte that began as an effort to loosen
strict U.S. export controls on encrypotion products and preclude domestic
restrictions.
   Rep. Rick White, Republican of Washington, said Tuesday he would offer
an alternative to Oxley's amendment that would meet many of the objections
of industry, Internet groups and others. But White's proposal was not
endorsed by leading law enforcement agencies that back Oxley's plan.
   White's plan would establish a center to help law enforcement agencies
crack encryption used by criminals, start a study of technologies to allow
government access and increase criminal penalties for use of encryption as
part of a crime.
   While two House committees have approved the Goodlatte bill intact, two
other panels added tighter export controls and domestic restrictions.
   After the Commerce Committee's vote, the bill goes to the House Rules
Committee which must reconcile the competitng versions. No action is
expected on the bill by the full House this year.
   ((--202-898-8312))
Tuesday, 23 September 1997 19:47:13
RTRS [nN2351141]

---

PRESS RELEASE

SEPTEMBER 24, 1997


LEADING US SCIENTIFIC, MATHEMATICS, AND ENGINEERING
SOCIETIES PROTEST RESTRICTIONS ON CRYPTOGRAPHY
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

The leading U.S. scientific, mathematics, and engineering societies sent a
united message to Congress today protesting proposed U.S. cryptography
policies that would maintain export restrictions limiting the open exchange
of scientific information and the progress of scientific research and
development.  In addition, these organizations warned that new requirements
for domestic key recovery raise serious scientific and technical problems
that undermine its viability as a policy alternative.  In a letter to the
House Commerce Committee, the societies indicated that the policies will
"diminish the scientific reputation of the United States and weaken us
economically."

This is the first time these highly influential societies have united to
inform Congress how cryptography policies will effect the future of
scientific research and development in the U. S.  Until now,  the debate
has focused on commercial, civil liberties, and national security/ law
enforcement interests.

The House Commerce Committee will vote today on proposed legislation
removing restrictions on the export of encryption products.  However,
amendments to this language were passed by two House Committees restricting
the domestic use of encryption.  The letter urges the Committee to reject
such proposals or " U.S. leadership in many areas of  science and
technology is likely to be jeopardized with no discernible benefits to our
National Interests."

Export controls and domestic restrictions on cryptography development and
use impact scientific freedoms in a number of ways. Cryptographers, a
specialized subset of computer scientists, mathematicians, and engineers,
are unable to communicateare unable to communicate with their colleagues
overseas or to participate in international projects aimed at developing a
secure GII.   The full and open exchange of scientific information
facilitated by these organizations has significantly increased the economic
strength of the United States. However the proposed new laws would continue
to force them to exclude members living outside the United States from this
free exchange.

According to Dr. Barbara Simons, " The scientific and engineering societies
today speak with one voice in urging Congress not to enact cryptography
policies which will prohibit scientists from performing important research.
If scientists cannot research and develop new cryptographic tools, the
future of electronic commerce may be in jeopardy."



CONTACTS:

Dr. Barbara Simons
Chair
U.S. Public Policy Committee for the Association for Computing
phone:  408:256-3661
pager:  1-888-329-3091
pager id:       2533409
e-mail  simons at VNET.IBM.COM

Dr. Peter Neumann
U.S. Public Policy Committee for the Association for Computing
email:  neumann at csl.sri.com

Ed Lazowska
Chair, Computer Science
University of Washington
e-mail: lazowska at cs.washington.edu
phone:  206 543 4755

David L. Waltz
President,
American Association for Artificial Intelligence (AAAI)
e-mail: waltz at research.nj.nec.com
phone:  609-951-2700
fax:    609-951-2483

Irving Lerch
Co-Chair, Committee on Scientific Freedom and Responsibility
American Association for the Advancement of Science
phone:  301 209 3236

Mary Gray
Co-Chair, Scientific Freedom and Responsibility
American Association for the Advancement of Science
phone:  202 885 3171

Staff:  Lauren Gelman 202/544-4859      gelman at acm.org
        Alex Fowler 202/ 326-7016       afowler at aaas.org

September 24, 1997

Dear Chairman Bliley:

As representatives of the leading scientific, mathematics, and
engineering societies in the United States, we are writing to protest
current and proposed U.S. cryptography policies that restrict the open
exchange of scientific information and the progress of scientific research
and development.  We object to national policies that criminalize
the use of cryptography that is not approved by the Administration or
that mandate domestic key recovery schemes.

The leadership that the United States currently enjoys in research and
development of encryption algorithms, cryptographic products, and computer
security technology will be seriously eroded, if not essentially eliminated,
by misguided proposals to restrict the domestic use of encryption.

  o The development of strong cryptographic technology is crucial to the
    further growth of our electronic infrastructure.  Encryption protects
    the security and privacy of communications and stored data.
    A lack of strong universally available encryption exacerbates security
    problems on personal computers, intranets, and the world-wide Internet.
    A recent National Academy of Sciences study warned against the
    government's premature reliance on key recovery as an encryption
    technique.  It urged that the method be deployed in test situations first
    to work out problems.  This has not been done.

  o Our organizations publish numerous scientific journals and conference
    proceedings, often relying on the Internet for publication.  The free
    exchange of scientific information facilitated by our organizations
    has significantly increased the economic strength of the United States.
    But the proposed new laws would continue to force us to exclude members
    living outside the United States from this free exchange.  The result would
    diminish the scientific reputation of the United States and weaken us
    economically.

  o It is unreasonable and probably unconstitutional to distinguish between
    printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code.  U.S. policy
    should not create an artificial distinction between paper and electronic
    versions of a document.

  o U.S. scientists and engineers involved with research and development of
    cryptographic tools cannot publish their results using electronic media,
    are restricted in their efforts to educate the next generation of computer
    scientists, and cannot communicate with their international colleagues.
    For example, the U.S. cryptography community has not been able to
    participate in the Internet Protocol Security project, an effort to
    develop new international standards for Internet security.

  o Publication restrictions relating to cryptography have a negative
    impact on peer review and the development of robust algorithms.  To
    demonstrate that encryption algorithms are secure, cryptographers
    publish their algorithms and other cryptographers try to break them.
    Not only does this process tend to identify faulty algorithms, but it is
    also a precondition for the public to have confidence that the algorithm
    is secure.

  o Computer systems currently are plagued by considerable security
    and privacy weaknesses. These problems will become more widespread
    as electronic commerce develops and computer systems become ubiquitous.
    Cryptographers in the U.S. face numerous barriers when addressing
    computer security issues, and some security researchers may be unwilling
    to continue their work because they will be restricted in publishing and
    discussing their research.

In conclusion, we urge you to eliminate current policies that stifle the
ability of researchers and implementers to study and build cryptographic
algorithms, secure information systems, and secure network protocols.
Otherwise, U.S. leadership in many areas of science and technology is
likely to be jeopardized with no discernible benefits to our National
Interests.

For more information please contact Barbara Simons at 408/256-3661,
Alex Fowler at 202/326-7016 or Lauren Gelman at 202/544-4859.

Sincerely,

------------


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From doctors2 at kcopk.com  Wed Sep 24 10:37:54 1997
From: doctors2 at kcopk.com (doctors2 at kcopk.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dental-Optical Plan
Message-ID: <2384358439fr33474@mail.net>


Hello, we work with a group of your local doctors 
and dentists and we are offering a Dental - Optical 
Plan that runs approximately $2 a week for an individual 
and $3 a week for an entire family with no limit to the 
number of children. 

Would you like our office to give you some additional information?

Our doctors are grouped by area code and zip code,
please list 

Name 
Address 
Area Code 
Phone Number


It is not necessary to quote the entire message back with your reply.

Thank you!






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Sep 23 21:53:21 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:53:21 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <6+catTayfJitur97o0GUEQ==@bureau42.ml.org>



Subject: A cypherpunks challenge.

Received: from 158.43.192.4 (actually max01-056.enterprise.net) by bath.mail.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:40:32 +0100
Received: from gateway1.ml.org by mail.ml.org (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA02326 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:36:08 -0600 (EST)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:36:08 EST
From: hucka at eecs.umich.edu
To: visit-our-xxx at ml.org
Subject: Shut up.
Message-Id: <964dffe172ca4d>
Reply-To: postmaster at concentric.net
X-Pmflags: cum-see-me
X-Uidl: 9275163132023367354272390
Comments: Authenticated sender is 

Shut up.

Do not complain. It's useless.

Just shut up you ignorant fools. The great Semyon Varshavchik has spoken.

ml.org will *never* shut me down.

mrsam at concentric.net








From ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com  Tue Sep 23 22:10:09 1997
From: ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:10:09 +0800
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199709240501.AAA09453@galaxy.galstar.com>



test






From kent at songbird.com  Tue Sep 23 23:08:16 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:08:16 +0800
Subject: Biological Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199709172143.RAA12527@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <19970923225902.44700@bywater.songbird.com>



On Wed, Sep 17, 1997 at 03:47:47PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> While I support your general goals, the idea of releasing Sarin or anthrax
> or other agents near the warrens of the burrowcrats in Washington is likely
> to backfire. Although the rodent extermination might succeed, the rodents
> have a prodigious ability to breed more of themselves. It's not clear that
> calling in the Orkin man to rid the infestation in the Congress will
> accomplish anything.

As I am sure Tim is intelligent enough to realize, this argument also
applies to the "suitcase" option, and all the other fantasies of
righteous violence that float through this list. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent at songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html






From webmaster at xxxstation.com  Wed Sep 24 15:21:11 1997
From: webmaster at xxxstation.com (webmaster at xxxstation.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:21:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More Traffic = More $$$
Message-ID: <199709241941.QAA10451@north.nsis.com>


THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED FOR ADULT WEBMASTERS ONLY. IF YOU HAVE
RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE IN ERROR PLEASE ACCEPT OUR APOLOGIES.

Dear Webmaster,

We know that traffic means more money for you so we're releasing the XXX
Station consoles.


The XXX Station consoles  (http://www.xxxStation.com)  consoles aren't
popping-up in front of
your homepage like many other, they appears only when the user exit your page.

Each time your web site launches a console you get 15 (yes fifteen)
exposures for free.
In brief it means about a 16% increase in traffic for your site, e.g. if
actually your site attracts 1000 visitors a day you'll get 15,000 exposures
for FREE

But that's not all !

To support the XXX Station consoles we've some sponsors, (like other
consoles) but with the XXX Station consoles, each time a sponsor is visited
using one of the console you launched, we offer you 3 FREE EXPOSURES FOR
YOUR BANNER (unlike others).
And we serve your banner from our server !

If you maintain several sites you can open several accounts  ! and of
course you can check real time stats when you want !

Instant Signup at : http://www.xxxStation.com

Our technical and  marketing support  is at your service to answer all your
questions don't hesitate to contact us !

MORE EXPOSURE means MORE TRAFFIC and MORE TRAFFIC MEANS MORE $$$ TO invest
in your website or whatever you want :-)

http://www.xxxStation.com
Traffic for free !!! Now show your banner for FREE !





From ghio at temp0117.myriad.ml.org  Wed Sep 24 00:23:50 1997
From: ghio at temp0117.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:23:50 +0800
Subject: (none)
In-Reply-To: <6+catTayfJitur97o0GUEQ==@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199709240651.CAA10884@myriad>



This spammer was pissed off at ml.org because they cancelled his account,
so he mailbombed a bunch of people via enterprise.net, an ISP which caters
to spammers.

I drop everything with an X-UIDL or X-PMFLAGS header in it.  I don't know
why, but spammers often flag their junkmail as such by putting one of
these lines in it.  It sure makes it easy to delete the spam...


bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  wrote:

> 
> Subject: A cypherpunks challenge.
> 
> Received: from 158.43.192.4 (actually max01-056.enterprise.net) by
> bath.mail.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:40:32 +0100
> Received: from gateway1.ml.org by mail.ml.org (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id
> GAA02326 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:36:08 -0600 (EST)
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:36:08 EST
> From: hucka at eecs.umich.edu
> To: visit-our-xxx at ml.org
> Subject: Shut up.
> Message-Id: <964dffe172ca4d>
> Reply-To: postmaster at concentric.net
> X-Pmflags: cum-see-me
> X-Uidl: 9275163132023367354272390
> Comments: Authenticated sender is 
> 
> Shut up.
> 
> Do not complain. It's useless.
> 
> Just shut up you ignorant fools. The great Semyon Varshavchik has spoken.
> 
> ml.org will *never* shut me down.
> 
> mrsam at concentric.net






From phelix at vallnet.com  Wed Sep 24 00:30:30 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:30:30 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) (fwd)
Message-ID: <3428b7ef.7697050@128.2.84.191>



 I believe that any denial-of-service attack will simply drive up the costs
of licensing encryption programs and keys to the point that only
corporations will be able to afford to release encryption products and
purchase keys (in bulk).  Remember, we have to pay them for the privelidge
(not right) of communicating "securely".

PS.  By licensing, I mean whatever process you'll have to go through to get
your crypto product approved for use domestically; much like what was tried
with the rating of video games.

Also, I haven't see much talk lately on how GAK will totally destroy
anonymity (not to mention the ability of any TLA to destroy your identity
simply by revoking your public keys).  Once GAK is approved, expect to see
encryption/signing pop up everywhere.  And since every key must be
registered and key sharing/trading/selling will be illegal ("Today, 7
hackers were busted in the internet's largest Key Laundering operation to
date.  Film at 11."), every single encrypted/signed communication can not
only be decrypted, but also traced back to you (Remailers are not secure in
a GAK world).  GAK is a big step toward an Internet Driver's License.

The FBI doesn't want to read encrypted documents; they want to read YOUR
encrypted documents.

-- Phelix






From phelix at vallnet.com  Wed Sep 24 00:31:54 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:31:54 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
Message-ID: <342abc87.8873306@128.2.84.191>



On 23 Sep 1997 09:58:20 -0500, Jonathan Wienke 
wrote:

>At 11:28 AM 9/22/97 GMT, phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>>remailers handle the increased load?  Are there enough remailers?
>>People will not tolerate more than a 24 hour delay for getting their
>>messages delivers.  What about spamming?  
>>
>>Another Question:  Since such a plugin uses (has the hooks for) encryption,
>>would it be covered by ITAR?  (i'm asking because I'm seriously considering
>>making the eudora plugin)
>
>The Eudora plugin should support remailer chaining and PGP encryption for
>personal messages, as well as give the user the opportunity to BE a
>remailing service.

Would people want to use eudora (their main email program) as a remailer,
and have to wait for it to process all those messages each time they read
their mail?  Is there a demand for users with dial-up accounts to be
remailers?

(I'm not being critical, I'm just asking.  I never thought about using
eudora as a remailer server)

>>Anyway, the remailer 'network' needs to be strengthened.  Right now,
>>Raph's pinging service (or whatever private idaho uses) is the only way
>>private idaho can tell which servers are up.  Attack this point, and
>>reliability when chaining remailers becomes uncertain.    Imagine a TLA
>>co-opting this service and altering the list to favor government friendly
>>remailers.
>>
>>It also needs to be easier to set up a remailer.  I'd like to see the
>>software distributed in .deb and .rpm packages for Linux.  Once set up, the
>>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
>>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
>>more automated it is, the better.
>
>How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
>(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?

Yes, I was thinking along these lines, though right now I'm concentrating
on the client end of things.

>
>>>I am sure that people can think of all sorts of other ideas for needed
>>>apps.  But to make them usable for the "general public", the apps will be
>>>needed to be written for Windows.  (As much as I hate to think about it...)
>>
>>Private idaho needs to be rewritten (in Java possibly) to be simpler to
>>operate.  There should be one button to press to send a message without
>>messing with what type and which remailers to use; the program could choose
>>these things randomly (ok, it's not the best thing to do, but at least it's
>>easy to use).  It also should be updated to use pgp 5.0 (not exclusively,
>>of course).  If possible, also add support for the Eternity Service.
>

>The remailer plugin should be able to:
>1. Scan all available sources of remailer availability / reliability.
>2. Allow the user to select a pool of trusted remailers.
>3. Allow the user to select the number of remailers in the chain.
>4. Randomly select remailers from the pool.
>5. Encrypt / add headers to the outgoing message to match the selected
>remailers.

Good Idea.  Are people comfortable with not choosing the exact order of the
remailers used?

>
>>Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
>>defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
>>Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)
>

>Look for AOL and other ISP's to automatically run a "noise reduction"
>filter (as in CoolEdit 96) on .wav / .jpg files if GAK becomes mandatory.
>CoolEdit's noise reduction filter is great for removing tape hiss and other
>constant background noise from sound files, (it can make a cheap tape deck
>sound like a cheap CD player) but it would obviously destroy any stegoed
>data. The noise reduction algorithm is very processor intensive--it takes
>my 586/133 about an hour to NR a 3 minute stereo 44 KHz recording, but I'm
>sure you could set up a "light" version of the filter that would destroy
>stego data without taking as long.
>

And how does one tell the difference between a JPEG image and a executable
program after they're uuencoded (assuming one does not follow MIME
conventions)?  Will we be required by law to identify, in clear plaintext,
the nature and contents of all our messages?

One more  thing:  I can't seem to find any reference to an API for pgp 5.0.
Anyone have any pointers?






From gnu at toad.com  Wed Sep 24 18:27:29 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bernstein: Stay issued; expedited appeal granted
Message-ID: <199709250103.SAA17520@toad.com>


Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:36:03 -0700
From: Cindy Cohn 

I just received the following fax from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals:

The government's emergency motion for a stay of the district court's
injunction pending appeal is granted.

This appeal is expedited.  Appellants' opening brief is due on October 16,
1997.  Appellee's answering brief is due on November 10, 1997.  Appellants'
opinional reply brief is due on November 17, 1997.  All briefs shall be
filed and served by hand or overnight mail.  No extensions of time for
filing the briefs will be granted absent a showing of extraordinary and
compelling circumstances.

The Clerk shall calendar this appeal in San Francisco for the week of
December 8, 1997.

Judges  Hall, Brunetti and Thomas

Cindy
************************ 
Cindy A. Cohn                                                               
McGlashan & Sarrail, P. C.
177 Bovet Road, 6th Floor                                            
San Mateo, CA  94402
(415) 341-2585 (tel)
(415)341-1395 (fax)
Cindy at McGlashan.com
http://www.McGlashan.com





From sirdavid at ktc.com  Wed Sep 24 19:43:18 1997
From: sirdavid at ktc.com (David C. Treibs)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
Message-ID: <199709242341.SAA15812@ns1.ktc.com>


                                        David C. Treibs
                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
                                        sirdavid at ktc.com

Hi.

We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.

For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
claiming legitimate dependents.

IRS accepted the information we sent them, and accepted our exemptions.

This year we again sent IRS our return without numbers for our children,
but this time we included the letter of acceptance for last year's
return, and again they said they are disallowing our exemptions, and
they want $1,175.79. I called the telephone number on the letter and
spoke with the lady who answered, explaining what we did last year and
how the IRS accepted our tax return. The lady said "now we have new
rules." She asked, "What religion are you," as if it mattered. When I
told her we were Christians, she paused as though to consult some
paperwork, and then she said, "those children need social security
numbers or you cannot claim them." She mentioned the Tax Reform Act of
1996 and Publication 553 as being the enabling documents that brought on
this change.

That same day I called U.S. Rep. Lamar Smith's office and explained the
situation. The nice lady in the San Antonio office said she would pass
the information to the Kerrville office, and they would do what they
could. The lady in the Kerrville office made several inquiries. She
repeatedly said we had the right to appeal, and she sent us a copy of:

--Internal Revenue Code: Income, Estate, Gift, Employment and Excise
Taxes ss 1001-End As of Sept 15, 1996, Volume 2. Subtitle F, Ch. 61B,
Sec 6109(a)-6109(h).

    Sec. 6109(e)--Repealed
    Is the rather odd heading for the only part I could find in the
    portion of the Code they sent me that says you must have a SSN or
    you will not be allowed an exemption. I wonder if that means the
    section is repealed? But then, the probably have it in some other
    section that the SSN is required. See IRC Sec. 151 (97) below.

--What appears to be a news release titled:
Valid Taxpayer Identification Numbers Needed For Returns
1996 IRB LEXIS 344; IR-96-50

--Internal Revenue Code...This section is current through 105-15,
approved 5/15/97.
Subtitle A. Income Taxes
Chapter 1. Normal Taxes and Surtaxes
Subchapter B. Computation of Taxable Income
Part V. Deductions for Personal Exemptions

    IRC Sec. 151 (1997)

    (e) says no exemption will be allowed unless the Taxpayer
    Identification Number is included on the return.

At present we are awaiting a letter from IRS, which we assume will state
that we must either provide SSNs for our children or pay up, and they
will probably give us 60 days or less to do either.

Having received the above distressing information, we called a San
Antonio, Texas, CPA, Ken Flint, a former IRS agent who now specializes
in helping people in trouble with the IRS. He said it would cost us more
to fight them than to simply pay the extra money. He sounded
sympathetic, if somewhat busy, and told us we could do the appeal if we
knew the law and IRS procedures. Unfortunately, I know neither.

Perhaps at this stage you could help us. I need to hear from someone who
has successfully appealed this sort of thing and won.

What are the applicable laws?
What is the case law in this matter?
What are the IRS procedures in these matters?

Are there any laws that might give us an out, such as the Religious
Rights Restoration Act, and other such high sounding laws?

Is there an attorney out there who wants to make a precedent out of this
for us and all the other like-minded folks?

If you have no direct knowledge of IRS laws and procedures, perhaps you
could pass this to a forum or organization or individual who could.

While we are aware of the various movements such as the sovereign
citizen, the patriots, tax protesters, and so on, we prefer to work
within the system to win our case. This is simply our preference.

We don't have a problem with proving that we are not making bogus claims
on our tax returns. We'd be happy to give them whatever reasonable proof
they want. We do have a big problem with giving our children a
government number.

The Bible gives the responsibility of raising children to parents, not
to the government or any other entity.

Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
of parents' God-given responsibility.

The SSN's powers can be divided into two basic categories: monitoring
and control; neither of which is within government's purview in dealing
with children. These are entirely the parents' job, Hillary Clinton's
postulations that "It Takes a Village" notwithstanding.

Once a child has a SSN, they are forever a blip on the government radar,
to be tracked, and to be the recipient of whatever government decides it
must foist upon children and their families.

SSN's are already used in our public school district to track students.
Much of their test scores and who knows what personal data is in the
district's computers, including a SSN. The district told us it probably
won't be long before all this data is sent to the state, and how long
will it be before this information ends up with the federal government?

The Clintons are working to push us into nationalized health care,
including government health care for children. Did you ever wonder how
they plan to track all these children, to ensure they are receiving all
the "benefits" of their plans? Very likely, the SSN. The "benefits"
might include "inoculations" against pregnancy, which amounts to
powerful birth control/abortifacient drugs, parental consent not needed
or desired. Then, of course, there is the "education,"
accompanying this government intrusion into child health, which is
irreconcilably opposed to my beliefs.

The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the Child
Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.

Once every child has a SSN, it will also be easier for the state to
nose in on the parent's job. With the recent birth of our fourth child,
we were told that a state social worker from the welfare department
would be visiting our home, and the home of everyone who has a child. If
our child had a SSN, they could easily computerize all her data and then
link it to any other data from us, our other children, and so on. It
could be done without SSNs, but it would be more difficult and time
consuming, and on a large scale, next to impossible.

The state of Texas provides a good example of what a state will do when
given access to the power of the SSN. Starting this year Texas requires
SSNs to issue a driver's license. Now that they have linked the
driver's license with a SSN, they can easily access a person's records,
including court records, and anyone not paying child support may be
denied a driver's license. This is just one example of the power of the
SSN, and how government can use it to force its agenda on the populace.

Whatever government grants or allows, it can withhold or restrict based
on whatever is politically correct at the time, if they have the tools
to do so. When people who disagree with you hold power over you, and
when they want to extend that power to your children, you better be
ready for trouble.

The SSN enables anyone with access to the right data bases to know every
address you ever had; details about your job, income, and taxes; school
records; all financial transactions not made with greenbacks; probably
all your telephone and utility details, including all your phone calls;
doctor, hospital, and other medical details; all court and police
records; and on and on and endlessly on.

This is all your personal information, available to government at the
snap of a finger, and this information is power. Now imagine if every
child has a SSN, that power will extend down to the womb even more than
it does now.

We are not willing to give the government power over our children. Why
should we, when children are none of government's business until they
reach adulthood? Why tempt government with all that power, when they
have already proven they will abuse it?


                   For Liberty,
                   David C. Treibs (sirdavid at ktc.com)





From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 24 06:08:06 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:08:06 +0800
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to
owner-espam at lists.espace.net using -f
X-Orig-From: rah-web 
X-e$pam-source: Various
X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:20:35 -0400
To: espam at intertrader.com
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
VAA21601
Sender: owner-espam at lists.espace.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.sneaker.net id
WAA04695

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
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From: rah-web 
Reply-To: rah at shipwright.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey

http://www.prnewswire.com:80/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/s
tory/9-23-9
 7/322338&EDATE=

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="322338&EDATE="
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                                 [Todays News]

 Frontier Technologies and TIS Announce Strategic Alliance to Deliver
 RecoverKey-enabled e-Lock

    Partnership Brings Together Strong Cryptography and User-Controlled Ke y
                                    Recovery

     MEQUON, Wis., Sept. 23 /PRNewswire/ -- Frontier Technologies and Trus ted
 Information Systems, Inc. (Nasdaq: TISX), today announced a strategic all
iance
 to integrate Frontier Technologies' e-Lock(TM) security family with TIS'
 RecoverKey(TM) Cryptographic Service Provider (CSP), offering customers a n
 easy-to-use solution for managing strong encryption across Windows(R) 95  and
 Windows NT(R) applications.  This alliance increases opportunities for
 implementing and managing strong encryption worldwide while putting users  in
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     The e-Lock products will work seamlessly across the Internet, intrane ts
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 levels of cryptography with the means to prevent "locked and lost" data.
 Customers using e-Lock with RecoverKey simply click a button to secure
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 forgotten password or lost key.
     "RecoverKey gives users the opportunity to enact data saving measures  up
 front when employing the e-Lock solution," said Dr. Prakash Ambegaonkar,
 Frontier Technologies' Chairman & CEO.  "Frontier's expertise coupled wit h
 TIS' innovative technology gives users the strongest levels of assurance  that
 their valuable information is locked up tight while providing an emergenc y
 mechanism for unlocking it if the key becomes lost or destroyed."
     "TIS is pleased to join forces with Frontier Technologies in their
 commitment to meet market demand for applications that support user contr
olled
 key recovery," commented Homayoon Tajalli, TIS Executive Vice President a nd
 General Manager, Cryptographic Products.  "Global e-commerce and communic
ation
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 e-Lock can now bring customers the benefit of robust encryption with a ba ckup
 plan in place for recovering locked data if the original key is inaccessi
ble."
     Frontier Technologies' e-Lock security family is a complete,
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     Trusted Information Systems' RecoverKey CSP is the first software of  its
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 Incorporating popular algorithms such as RSA, DES, Triple DES and 128-bit
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     RecoverKey CSP trial versions are currently shipping and the RecoverK ey
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     Frontier Technologies' mission is to pioneer Internet and Intranet
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 competitive in a global market.
     Trusted Information Systems, Inc., is a leading provider of comprehen sive
 security solutions for protection of computer networks, including global
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 laptops.
     RecoverKey is a trademark of Trusted Information Systems, Inc.  e-Loc k,
 e-Cert, e-Sign, e-Mail are trademarks of Frontier Technologies Corporatio n.
 All other product and company names may be trademarks of their respective
 owners.

 SOURCE  Frontier Technologies

 CONTACT: Ann M. Krauss, 520-797-0583, 520-797-0182 (fax),
 Ann at Frontiertech.com or Nicole E. Rogers, 414-241-4555 x293,
 414-241-7084 (fax), NicoleR at Frontiertech.com, both of Frontier
 Technologies, or Shoshana Rosenthal of Trusted Information
 Systems, 301-947-7194, shoshana at tis.com

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-----------------
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e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Wed Sep 24 08:39:52 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:39:52 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Sep24.112449edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> At 14:02 -0400 9/23/97, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
> >> Which law, specifically, would gossiping with (or about) your neighbors
> >> violate?
> >
> >Slander.
> >
> >Were I to maliciously spread a rumor, and you got fired, or suffered
> >economic loss because of my gossip, you could sue me.
> 
> Not quite. Truth is an absolute defense against slander and libel. If the
> gossip is true, which was my hypothetical, what's the cause of action?

Truth was not mentioned specifically.  Gossip is rarely true after the
first few iterations.  You are correct that if the gossip can be proven
true that the position is defensible (but I would have to check some legal
references if it is absolute).

> >I can be damaged by information - which may be either wrong or out of
> >context.  Should I have no right to recover or correct such things?  If no\
> 
> No, you should have no right to "recover" what I know about you. This is a
> common beginner's misunderstanding. What you seem to be arguing for is
> property rights in information. But that is misguided. To grant you such a
> right would be to let you muzzle others who say truthful things, violating
> their free speech rights.

Technically, I am arguing for property rights in reputation.  Patent and
copyright are already recognized property rights in information.

As far as recovering information, I may have no right, but if I contract
with my doctor or lawyer, he has a duty to protect my records.  Perhaps I
could not sue you, but I could sue the people who released the information
to you, and those who had a duty to protect those records.

The "raw" FBI files Livingstone got are an example - they contain lots of
unverified rumor and gossip and could be used to damage the people they
are about.  Did Livingstone do anything wrong, and would there be a
problem posting such information on the internet?

How about personal information such as credit card or social security
numbers or even tax records - you are saying if I can get them, I should
be able to publish them. 

And who determines "truthful"?  This gets back into the ratings scheme.
Movie critics would be in trouble if you leave this caveat in.

> That is why many "privacy laws" are censorship in disguise.

Then on the same basis, are copyright laws.  If I can get a copy of MS
Office, should I be able to publish that?  Copyright does not directly
prevent me from obtaining the information, but it does prevent others from
publishing the information without my permission.  Even cracking a copy
protection scheme does not entitle me to publish the now unprotected
information freely.

I would simply argue that some personal information is functionally
copyrighted by that person without going through the formality (if I
remember right the Berne convention says something is still protected even
if no formal steps have been taken).  Some personal information can be
made public domain - who I appear in public with, what I wear in public,
what I post here, etc. but lots cannot be obtained without commiting some
form of trespass or theft.  You are effectively saying that if you get
something that was stolen, you still should be able to own it (and if you
publish it, have a copyright and own that same information).

If you are arguing that there should be no legal protection for
information of any sort (including patent or copyright) I think you have a
point.  We then would have an equal opportunity for information piracy. 







From otasco at ix7.ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 00:59:05 1997
From: otasco at ix7.ix.netcom.com (otasco at ix7.ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PROTECT YOUR COMPUTER
Message-ID: <199709250744.CAA04881@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>


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From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Wed Sep 24 09:59:42 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:59:42 +0800
Subject: The great GAK crack (making GAK economically impossible) (fwd)
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F15@tceis5.indy.tce.com>



> I believe that any denial-of-service attack will simply drive up the
costs
>of licensing encryption programs and keys to the point that only
>corporations will be able to afford to release encryption products and
>purchase keys (in bulk).  Remember, we have to pay them for the
privelidge
>(not right) of communicating "securely".

If domestic GAK is mandated, my recommendation to my employer will be to
not transmit anything via the Internet that we wouldn't want on the
cover of The New York Times (or EE Times).  As a U.S. subsidiary of a
foreign corporation, I would not be surprised if our communications were
decrypted and the contents passed along to our U.S. competitors if
domestic GAK is mandated.  (Can you say, "industrial espionage"?  I knew
you could.)
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"






From cynthb at sonetis.com  Wed Sep 24 10:36:55 1997
From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia Brown)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:36:55 +0800
Subject: (none)
In-Reply-To: <199709240651.CAA10884@myriad>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

> I drop everything with an X-UIDL or X-PMFLAGS header in it.  I don't know
> why, but spammers often flag their junkmail as such by putting one of
> these lines in it.  It sure makes it easy to delete the spam...
> 
> bureau42 Anonymous Remailer  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Subject: A cypherpunks challenge.
> > 
> > Received: from 158.43.192.4 (actually max01-056.enterprise.net) by
> > bath.mail.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:40:32 +0100
> > Received: from gateway1.ml.org by mail.ml.org (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id
> > GAA02326 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:36:08 -0600 (EST)
> > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:36:08 EST
> > From: hucka at eecs.umich.edu
> > To: visit-our-xxx at ml.org
> > Subject: Shut up.
> > Message-Id: <964dffe172ca4d>
> > Reply-To: postmaster at concentric.net
> > X-Pmflags: cum-see-me
> > X-Uidl: 9275163132023367354272390
> > Comments: Authenticated sender is 

Another good procmail trigger is the timezone "0600 (EST)", which is a bug
in one of the more commonly used spammer programs. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb at iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 10:50:24 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:50:24 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:26 -0400 9/24/97, nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com wrote:
>Truth was not mentioned specifically.  Gossip is rarely true after the
>first few iterations.  You are correct that if the gossip can be proven
>true that the position is defensible (but I would have to check some legal
>references if it is absolute).

Not all lies are libelous, nor should they be. "I love you," no?

>Technically, I am arguing for property rights in reputation.  Patent and
>copyright are already recognized property rights in information.

And these are divisive issues in the circles I travel in.

But no, technically you are arguing for property rights in //personal
information//. This is not a new concept. Brandeis and Warren first laid
the groundwork for this in their landmark (and misguided) 1890 law review
article. That article was written before the advent of modern First
Amendment jurisprudence and does not take free speech rights into
consideration.

Your scheme -- which is hardly novel -- is worthy of the same contempt.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From hc at dev.null  Wed Sep 24 10:50:42 1997
From: hc at dev.null (HugeCajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:50:42 +0800
Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!
Message-ID: <199709241058.EAA15898@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>



You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results. 
It can make people really nervous and think maybe they should get
you first. Sometimes they hire other people to get you before you get
them�really bad people sometimes. Sometimes even bad people who
act like they are good people and fool everyone until they kill you.
Which brings me to the point I am trying to make:
You should not try to kill the Constitution any more because there is
not enough left to make people safe and they might get really nervous
and think maybe they should get you first�or even after. For revenge.

People like the Constitution a lot and if you are making a death threat
against it then it is like saying your going to kill someone else�s
friend or family and everyone knows that they will kill you because 
they are domestic and not a stranger.  Or is it that they are stranger 
and not domesticated?
Never mind. You know what I mean. 
Especially if you try to make it so that they cannot put aluminum foil
hats on their thoughts and their words and their writing. Then they 
get really, really, nervous and maybe start thinking that they have to
kill everybody because they are not safe from anybody. 
You should be careful if you find yourself walking next to someone
whistling that Crosby Stills & Nash song "If you cant kill the one you
love�then kill the one you�re with." (� That�s a joke but it would
be really funny if you took it serious and whacked someone out for
whistling it anyway.) (Its not like they have a Constitutional right to
whistle it or anything....hee, hee.)

You should be careful before you vote to kill the Constitution and look
under all your chairs and stuff, just in case. You should maybe look in
your conscience too and see if you are not a bad person maybe. You
should also maybe look in a mirror and make sure you are not cross
eyed and that there is nobody beside you whistling that song "If looks
could kill�then you would only be hurting yourself."(<== that's a joke.)

Even if you do think you can kill the Constitution and still have all of
the people believe you are not a bad person then you should at least
try not to let really stupid people who you work with say things like
"I am too stupid to learn about this stuff so I am going to let the guys
who want to make aluminum foil hats illegal and put everyone in jail
decide how I vote to kill the Constitution."
The one those guys who always say "Nuke DC" call Swinestein said
that and it made everyone think you are all that stupid and going to
let people with guns who kill women and children make your votes
for you. Then even more of them say "Nuke DC" especially when they
remember how bad the guys with the guns that you are letting vote for
you fucked their friend (sorry but thats what they did) for making a 
stink with the IRS.

That is really all I am trying to say. Is that you should be careful
that you dont kill so much of the Constitution and let the guys with 
the guns screw so many people that nobody feels safe from them anymore
because they wont just get nervous about them they will get nervous
about you too because you promised to protect them and didnt.
Just try to remember that it never ends.
If you take away some of the guns from people then you have to take
away all the guns or you are in big trouble. If you take away some of
the Constitution from people then you have to take away all of the
Constitution or you are in big trouble.
Even if you think you took away all of the things that people can use
to be safe and free then they will make more�like Doritos. 
If you try to kill them with bullshit then they will try to kill you
with their own brand of fertilizer. If you take away their aluminum 
foil hats then they will make hats out of paper and call them 
Forever Young.

Killing the Constitution is a lot like killing DC�if your going to do
it then you might as well do it right and do it all at once.
Guys with guns who want to kill Freeh-dumb know that and so do
guys with nukes who are Freeh-dumb fighters. (My uncle made up a
new word about him�he said he "testiLies to Congress.")

Don�t be a stranger,
APlayerToBeNamedLater
p.s - If you see Declan McCullagh getting in his car and driving like
hell away from the city then you should get in your car and do the 
same thing. You dont need to pack a suitcase because I think if he
does that then there is already one packed.
(Thats what the guys with guns told you in your secret meetings so 
you will kill the Constitution for them isnt it?)
p.p.s.- If you hear someone say "President Freeh" then do not wait for
Declan just get the hell out of there real fast anyway. You can come 
to my place if you want and help me send out secret aluminum foil
hats. (Bring a whoopee cushion and we will make little funny booms
instead of big scary ones. We are a little more laid back out here in
the country than you guys in the big city.)







From cme at cybercash.com  Wed Sep 24 10:51:47 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:51:47 +0800
Subject: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924101545.032be240@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:34 AM 9/23/97 +0100, Ross Anderson wrote:
>There is also the point that the vast majority of encryption keys are
>actually used for authentication rather than confidentiality. The keys
>that encrypt your bank card PIN en route from the ATM to the bank, the
>keys in your satellite TV decoder, the keys in your gas meter and your
>postal meter - in fact the majority of all DES keys in use - are about
>authentication. In theory most of them could be replaced by digital 
>signature mechanisms but given the size of the installed base, it 
>won't happen anytime soon.

For what it's worth, I once got an opinion from NSA's export control office 
that I could use any kind of crypto I wanted (e.g., even triple-DES) if all 
I'm doing is protecting a channel carrying a password (like the PIN), 
because that's an authentication function and therefore to be encouraged.  I 
didn't get this in writing, however, so I'd have to go for it again.

 - Carl

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNCkgkFQXJENzYr45AQF9EAP+Lx54AGJVvr9nOgGEaFYgMyTYFsalnPV9
3ZhqCIc6DDbjGBPf7r20SYUwz+3mhLeGLjlHleltXoT/coAChL/vSnqL0Q9/gpRI
w11Sg32vFi/6Fr8fNWgEcMtmuIIZS/QSRt3hj8p0cc6UN2bjWevD97/brWhVjWYl
hNdlUrgPpHw=
=l1tu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 24 10:53:50 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:53:50 +0800
Subject: CypherPunk Action Project #128
Message-ID: <199709241249.OAA07869@basement.replay.com>



Write a decent ISP monitoring tool and send it to all LEA's so that
they don't FOOBAR my ISP and my account everytime they shit their cute
little panties when I send out my !!!DEATH THREAT!!! emails to Congress
(and a President to be named later).

Or, in the alternative:
Support GAK and VHM (Video Home Monitoring) on the condition that they
let CypherPunks write the code so that we can at least keep the system
functioning smoothly until they come for us.
('Old saying' of the future:
 "When Kent Crispin was Fuhrer, the email ran on time." )






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Wed Sep 24 10:53:54 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:53:54 +0800
Subject: copyright & privacy (was Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....)
In-Reply-To: <97Sep24.112449edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199709241736.SAA04219@server.test.net>




Tom Zerucha writes:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Technically, I am arguing for property rights in reputation.  Patent
> and copyright are already recognized property rights in information.

And this is a good thing?

> The "raw" FBI files Livingstone got are an example - they contain lots of
> unverified rumor and gossip and could be used to damage the people they
> are about.  Did Livingstone do anything wrong, and would there be a
> problem posting such information on the internet?

It would be a real boon for privacy if they were posted to the
internet.  The fall-out ought to reduce government reporting demands.

> How about personal information such as credit card or social security
> numbers or even tax records - you are saying if I can get them, I should
> be able to publish them. 

Bingo!  What you don't want published don't publish.

Don't like it?  Don't reveal information you don't want published.
Argue for chaumian credentials.

btw. your "you are saying if I can get them, I should be able to
publish them." is almost a tautology -- clearly if you get information
you _can_ publish it anonymously.  Therefore anything that is
obtainable is not private.  

Laws claiming to regulate what you can _know_ (data protection laws)
are dumber yet, as it is legislating that you must forget something.
And it is unenforceable -- who knows what you have on your database.

> > That is why many "privacy laws" are censorship in disguise.
> 
> Then on the same basis, are copyright laws.  If I can get a copy of MS
> Office, should I be able to publish that?  Copyright does not directly
> prevent me from obtaining the information, but it does prevent others from
> publishing the information without my permission.  

Copyright doesn't prevent squat.  It just sets up a procedure for your
local force monopoly to harass you if you don't follow the procedure.

> (if I remember right the Berne convention says something is still
> protected even if no formal steps have been taken).

More laws against gravity.

> If you are arguing that there should be no legal protection for
> information of any sort (including patent or copyright) I think you have a
> point.  We then would have an equal opportunity for information piracy. 

Scrap patents and copyright.  Disband WIPO police.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199709241739.SAA04227@server.test.net>




Mark Leighton Fisher  writes:
> If domestic GAK is mandated, my recommendation to my employer will
> be to not transmit anything via the Internet that we wouldn't want
> on the cover of The New York Times (or EE Times).

Excellent advice.  Perhaps you could get them to pass on your planned
recommendations to the GAKkers in DC.

> As a U.S. subsidiary of a foreign corporation, I would not be
> surprised if our communications were decrypted and the contents
> passed along to our U.S. competitors if domestic GAK is mandated.
> (Can you say, "industrial espionage"?  I knew you could.)

I am positive your suspicions are correct.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



How do I get some of these pics of boys in swimsuits?  






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep 24 10:59:44 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:59:44 +0800
Subject: Intel Committee Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970924103443.008e84c8@pop.pipeline.com>



The House Select Committee on Intelligence has published
its report on SAFE, including supporting and opposing
views of its controversial amendment, estimated costs
and analysis:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt4.htm  (195K)







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 11:00:45 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:00:45 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie DeFalco 
To: Declan McCullagh 
Subject: Re: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....

1)  CEI's position on this stuff, in a nutshell, is that the only things the
government should worry about on the Internet are the traditional things
that the government ought to worry about: enforcing rule of law and private
property rights.  The government should not run around making up excuses to
regulate privacy preferences on the internet.  For a full exposition of our
position, feel free to check out our filings on the FTC web page (www.ftc.gov).

The biggest problem in my mind was that the FTC was talking about a medium
that is pretty new and still has a lot of growing pains.  The FTC wants to
get in on the ground floor of regulation and direct the development of the
Internet -- that's industrial policy and should be called that so at least
we're all talking about the same thing. 

 Meanwhile, lots of folks find it easier to cry out for a new regulation,
rather than negotiate a solution among conflicting interests, which is time
consuming and messy.  This happens in all other industries, so it's not
surprising that such pressure has emerged here.  After all, regulators need
an excuse for their jobs, and outside groups calling for more regulation
often have the opportunity to direct how the regulation is written and
implemented (in other words, they can gain power and access to power).

I think that the problems discussed at the hearing are not only outside the
proper sphere of government (actually, the FTC in my mind is outside the
proper sphere of government), but that most of those problems would be
eventually worked out in time. 

2)>>>>One of the main assertions made by both sides in the privacy
>>battles
>>>>is people must be informed when a third party is gathering
>>"personal"
>>>>information about them.

No, I never said that.  I said that if you release information about
yourself into a public sphere, then you have no right to control the
downstream use of that information (because that is essentially controlling
the behavior of others).  I said that in terms of companies' web pages, it
would probably be a good idea to inform people of this action.  And that
without a law, or even without government pushing, it would happen anyway.

3) Re: the gossip question:  I was going to write what Declan said, only he
said it much better.  I don't think that you or anybody can properly draw a
line between how much gossip is "too much" gossip, and when one should "draw
a line."

Maybe we know "too much gossip" when we see it, but do you really want to
cede that much control over the speech and actions of others to a judge?

That's it for now.

Bye,
Julie







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 24 11:03:08 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:03:08 +0800
Subject: Not that I'm a troublemaker...
Message-ID: <199709241326.PAA11091@basement.replay.com>



To: senator at kennedy.senate.gov
From: HugeCajones Remailer
Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!
...
[I apologize if you have received this email in error. If you do not
 wish to receive further email from the Electronic Forgery Foundation
 then please send an email to "cypherpunks at toad.com" with a Subject
 heading that says, "I Voted For Strong Crypto!"]

You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results.






From aptbnl at dev.null  Wed Sep 24 11:03:59 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:03:59 +0800
Subject: Movie Suitcases
Message-ID: <3428915B.7611@dev.null>



Anyone notice that there is a nuclear suitcase movie being released 
within a couple of weeks of the NSA shill Russian general's book
about the same?
So, does everybody now have it firm in their mind that this is a real
threat that we will need to take firm action on the minute that Freeh
& Company announce the nuclear suitcase crisis?

Mail the last of your civil and human rights to your Congressman today.
Tell him or her to forward them to President Freeh before leaving for
the internment camps.

A Player To Be Named Later







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 11:07:23 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:07:23 +0800
Subject: The White "Compromise"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970924100704.009ec950@mailbox.bgsu.edu>
Message-ID: 



The White Compromise is what I wrote about in my Netly piece last Wed? and
my post of last night called "Congress & Crypto Roundup: Vote in Commerce
cmte tomorrow."

>From memory: The "compromise" would remove some export restrictions on
crypto, provided that the program was readily available overseas already.
It would not remove all export restrictions. (This is in the original SAFE
bill, which it amends.)

It also includes those four points I wrote about, including giving the FBI
tons of $$$ to buy them off. More disturbingly, it doubles the
crypto-in-a-crime penalties.

The crypto coalition letter sent around last week was right on this point:
representatives should oppose //all// amendments to SAFE, including the
White so-called "compromise."

-Declan



At 10:07 -0400 9/24/97, Scott Carr wrote:
>   I spoke to a staffer of Rep. Strictland's office (a rural Ohio
>district, I voted for the other guy last year, sigh...) and she did
>not know the Congressman's position on SAFE five and a half hours
>before the markup.  Reading between the lines, he seems to be heading
>for the White "Compromise".
>
>   Now a question, does the White amendment remove export limitations
>on crypto?  Strictland's legislative director stated that was her
>understanding.  I thought it left the status quo in that regard.
>
>   (I am hearing that damned word "COMPROMISE" too many times talking
>to these jokers for my comfort.  The only compromise I see is the
>compromising of my data and security.)







From adam at homeport.org  Wed Sep 24 11:09:04 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:09:04 +0800
Subject: Not worried?  You will be... (fwd from Yucks)
Message-ID: <199709241030.GAA26773@homeport.org>



----- Forwarded message from Nev Dull -----

>From nev at bostic.com  Tue Sep 23 02:39:35 1997
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nev Dull 
Subject: Not worried?  You will be...
To: nev at bostic.com (/dev/null)

Not worried about companies collecting information about your
purchasing habits?  You will be...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dear Mr. Jones:

Our research indicates that you have not bought condoms at SpiffyMart
recently.  (Your last purchase was 8 weeks ago.)  Further, you have
stopped buying feminine hygiene products, but have sharply increased
your frozen pizza and dinners usage in the same time frame.

It's clear that Ms. Jody Sanders and you are no longer "an item".  (It's
probably for the best -- she consistently buys inexpensive shampoo, and
it was obvious that the two of you were not economically compatible.)
The Postal Service database confirms that she filed a change of address
form.

We at Hotflicks International offer our condolences.  As the number-one
vender of hot XXX-rated videos, we want you to know that our products can
help you through this difficult period.  When you're feeling lonely, check
out our unmatched catalog, there is guaranteed to be something that you'll
want to purchase!

Order from this catalog and we'll throw in an extra tape FREE!

Yours Truly,
Pat Aureilly, Hotflicks Marketing Manager

ps:     That "blond" at O'Dougles last Saturday for whom you bought a
	Strawberry Marguerita?  Forget it!  Her HMO database confirms
	that she's had three yeast infections this year and was tested
	for a sexually transmitted disease.  Our tapes are much safer!

------------------------------

----- End of forwarded message from Nev Dull -----

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 24 11:09:05 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:09:05 +0800
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:20:35 -0400
To: espam at intertrader.com
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rah-web 
Reply-To: rah at shipwright.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: NewSpeak: TIS RecoverKey

http://www.prnewswire.com:80/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/s
tory/9-23-9
 7/322338&EDATE=

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="322338&EDATE="
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="322338&EDATE="
 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d
 VAA21516

                                 [Todays News]

 Frontier Technologies and TIS Announce Strategic Alliance to Deliver
 RecoverKey-enabled e-Lock

    Partnership Brings Together Strong Cryptography and User-Controlled Ke y
                                    Recovery

     MEQUON, Wis., Sept. 23 /PRNewswire/ -- Frontier Technologies and Trus ted
 Information Systems, Inc. (Nasdaq: TISX), today announced a strategic all
iance
 to integrate Frontier Technologies' e-Lock(TM) security family with TIS'
 RecoverKey(TM) Cryptographic Service Provider (CSP), offering customers a n
 easy-to-use solution for managing strong encryption across Windows(R) 95  and
 Windows NT(R) applications.  This alliance increases opportunities for
 implementing and managing strong encryption worldwide while putting users  in
 control of their own data and privacy.
     The e-Lock products will work seamlessly across the Internet, intrane ts
 and extranets with the RecoverKey CSP so that users can employ the strong est
 levels of cryptography with the means to prevent "locked and lost" data.
 Customers using e-Lock with RecoverKey simply click a button to secure
 documents and/or to recover data that would otherwise be lost due to a
 forgotten password or lost key.
     "RecoverKey gives users the opportunity to enact data saving measures  up
 front when employing the e-Lock solution," said Dr. Prakash Ambegaonkar,
 Frontier Technologies' Chairman & CEO.  "Frontier's expertise coupled wit h
 TIS' innovative technology gives users the strongest levels of assurance  that
 their valuable information is locked up tight while providing an emergenc y
 mechanism for unlocking it if the key becomes lost or destroyed."
     "TIS is pleased to join forces with Frontier Technologies in their
 commitment to meet market demand for applications that support user contr
olled
 key recovery," commented Homayoon Tajalli, TIS Executive Vice President a nd
 General Manager, Cryptographic Products.  "Global e-commerce and communic
ation
 depends on impenetrable transmission and storage of valuable information.
 e-Lock can now bring customers the benefit of robust encryption with a ba ckup
 plan in place for recovering locked data if the original key is inaccessi
ble."
     Frontier Technologies' e-Lock security family is a complete,
 standards-based solution for creating, using and managing secure applicat ions
 for intranets and the Internet in both Windows(R) 95 and Windows NT(R)
 environments.  The e-Lock family of products, e-Sign, Secure Messaging
 Toolkit, and e-Lock PKI support digital signatures, encryption and public  key
 infrastructure.
     Trusted Information Systems' RecoverKey CSP is the first software of  its
 kind to reach a worldwide commercial market, enabling Windows 95 and Wind ows
 NT desktop users to implement powerful cryptography at the click of a but ton.
 Incorporating popular algorithms such as RSA, DES, Triple DES and 128-bit
 RC2/RC4, the RecoverKey CSP will provide the components necessary to encr ypt
 and decrypt information seamlessly across applications.
     RecoverKey CSP trial versions are currently shipping and the RecoverK ey
 CSP-enabled e-Lock product will be available in late fall.  Visit the Fro
ntier
  Technologies website at http://www.frontiertech.com for free download of  the
 e-Lock products.
     Frontier Technologies' mission is to pioneer Internet and Intranet
 applications that make individuals more productive and businesses more
 competitive in a global market.
     Trusted Information Systems, Inc., is a leading provider of comprehen sive
 security solutions for protection of computer networks, including global
 Internet-based systems, internal networks, and individual workstations an d
 laptops.
     RecoverKey is a trademark of Trusted Information Systems, Inc.  e-Loc k,
 e-Cert, e-Sign, e-Mail are trademarks of Frontier Technologies Corporatio n.
 All other product and company names may be trademarks of their respective
 owners.

 SOURCE  Frontier Technologies

 CONTACT: Ann M. Krauss, 520-797-0583, 520-797-0182 (fax),
 Ann at Frontiertech.com or Nicole E. Rogers, 414-241-4555 x293,
 414-241-7084 (fax), NicoleR at Frontiertech.com, both of Frontier
 Technologies, or Shoshana Rosenthal of Trusted Information
 Systems, 301-947-7194, shoshana at tis.com

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

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http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info at hyperion.co.uk
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com  Wed Sep 24 11:10:58 1997
From: Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com (Christian Claborne)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:10:58 +0800
Subject: REminder: Physical meet this Wednesday
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970923192523.00b638e0@cyberthought.com>



The last message had Thursday in the subject... It's Wednesday.

     2
 -- C  --
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


This Wednesday!!!

   San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium  Wednesday, Sep. 24, 1997.

   Topic:
	What action do we take if the situation get's out of hand (See message below 
from Mark H. below).


   It is my belief that any group, no matter how small, can accomplish great 
things if they apply themselves.  Cypherpunks are not just "users", they 
poses  several additional quanta of the stuff that enables creative thought, 
and skill.  

   Don't forget to bring your public key  fingerprint.  If you can figure out
how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool.  If you 
want
the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID.

   
Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop
       3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach.
       488-9060


Time:1800

Their Directions:
	8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit
	Take west mission bay drive
	Go right on Mission Blvd.

	On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd.
	It is located between roller coaster and garnett.
	It's kind of 40s looking building...  funky looking 
        (their description, not mine)

They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer + wine stuff.

See you there!

New guy, bring your fingerprint.

Drop me a note if you plan to attend... 


      2
  -- C  --


- ------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Hedges 
To: all-at-infonex at infonex.com
Subject: federal cryptography legislation
Sender: owner-all-at-infonex at infonex.com

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A bill called "SAFE" (HR-695, "Security and Freedom with Encryption") in
the U.S. House of Representatives would have allowed U.S. software
companies to export strong cryptography, and would have promoted privacy
in all U.S. communications. Cryptography is mathematical means of making a
message secret. Now, this bill has been rewritten to introduce more
restrictive cryptography legislation than ever before seen in the U.S.

Public support for cryptography use and export is very strong, as
evidenced by the California state legislature's unanimous vote 9/5/97,
calling on Congress and the President to revise and relax export laws
(SJR-29). Companies world-wide already produce strong cryptograpy
software, and U.S. buisness is rapidly losing ground in the world-wide
software and telecommunications market. 

The House National Security Committee this week voted to continue export
restrictions in the SAFE bill and to install "key escrow" proposals of the
defense and intelligence organizations. This would not only continue the
status quo legislation, it would strictly regulate and restrict domestic
use of cryptography, an unprecedented act. 

Key escrow legislation in SAFE would mandate government "back doors" in
all communications software before the end of the millennia in the United
States, imposing criminal penalties for use of secure cryptography.
Effectively, every citizen would be required to give law enforcement
involuntary and transparent access to all communications, including
financial, business, and personal messages. 

Key escrow also exposes all U.S. communication to a single point of
failure, which a hacker, spy, or corrupt official could exploit to gain
access to all personal, industry, and financial information. 

More information is available in our most recent press release. Press
releases can be viewed at http://www.anonymizer.com/press/. 

Please, call your congressional representatives and senators and encourage
them to oppose restrictive legislation on cryptography and mandated
government access to all communications. Names and phone numbers for your
local legislators can be obtained from www.house.gov and www.senate.gov. 

Sincerely,

Mark Hedges
Anonymizer Inc.
Infonex Internet Inc.

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNBnJhBVo2SUWMp6NAQFyNQP/UuogfBfcjRw7q5rda8+1BrGkMEHpixau
J7JfbhKyv5yWdPZsnh8F3m/kaUahLEaSdLCcmAJzbroKApGBjUtT6bRacOtVps3X
TzZXLO2NZd4UBsksUC1f3WWnnRl8+03jiQMboSpBvUVmHqA1sFiz3OQpJVWv1yge
jEEk7R2Maeg=
=VrfI
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBNCRRAIP1MBWQ+9udAQHNuAf/Wf/vf7O7A3iZhd9BjlzyI0FvcOTelUOs
5JhxXN0w86YWzoluZue8jY7uKmxGVuySdikQSw4OxLS5wZG05nByoIQlhlzLPYIl
vrQuQZ0EeGIOycwS7IuNLFFyx+C1E7HxcdX0UR3qMDgEiiFb09DlcuDHeSp52RZW
s6t7AFR7ZoVz28KanihgDRQdk9QTw0HuaZV3hHNl11610HaPURRe4SX7zgR1cHAf
naoTZI70GqVoUVYVrm+oVHln7HsdFqnrO/1GAVpLzKpEnzfT9C0d0o7T4t/WX4CM
yeeO2UZUwfg01VyCHORpFYbx1SrFlW4rZNZqOJMP2lA2cNDZBsLrhg==
=/sWk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

                              ...  __o
                             ..   -\<,
Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com    ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on 
					  your computing needs.
http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/
PGP Pub Key fingerprint =  7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0  54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51
Avail on Pub Key server.  PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
Dreams.  They are just a "screen saver" for the brain.






From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 11:23:13 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:23:13 +0800
Subject: Oxley crypto update: vote in 90 minutes
Message-ID: 



Today's vote will be held in less than two hours. Keep in mind that this is
just one committee out of five that's considering the SAFE bill. The impact
of the committee's draft of SAFE is not nearly as important, IMHO, as the
political impact of the vote. Can one of the nation's richest industries
muster up the votes to defeat law enforcement -- in the //Commerce//
committee, of all places? Many eyes will be watching the committee today.

I hear that Oxley is nervous and has been calling people he never did
before. His staff tells me that yes, he has been calling everyone on the
committee. He'll be distributing letters of support from groups --
including law enforcement groups in California -- that will buttress his
amendment. Oxley's staff tells me the version of Oxley II posted by CDT is
almost certainly inaccurate and out of date. Solomon, chair of House Rules,
is circulating a letter saying only SAFE with Oxley will go to the floor.

The pressure's on. Rumors are flying that industry may cut a deal (perhaps
brokered by White) that may give up civil liberties in exchange for export
controls. We'll see soon. As of yesterday Oxley appeared to have a majority
of perhaps 32-34 out of the 51 or so people on the committee.

-Declan


>In case anybody is counting votes, my own congressman (Brian Bilbray, R-CA)
>sits on the House Commerce committee. I just got a call back from his
>staff saying that Bilbray opposes the Oxley amendment and continues
>to support the original SAFE bill, which he co-sponsored.
>
>Any other word on how today's vote is going?
>
>Phil








From jseiger at cdt.org  Wed Sep 24 11:36:29 1997
From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:36:29 +0800
Subject: Oxley crypto update: vote in 90 minutes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



A little more news:

I've been told that the Bell companies have issued a statement saying that
they remain opposed to Oxley II despite Oxley's attempts to bring them on
board.  This is good news -- the bell companies hold a lot of sway on the
Commerce Committee and their opposition is politically valuable to us.

I'd be surprised if the version of Oxley II posted on our site is
inaccurate (it's dated 12:14 pm yesterday), but it is possible that there
is an Oxley III floating around somewhere.   Perhaps they are just trying
to throw you off the scent.

Solomon's statement that only SAFE w/Oxley will go to the floor is also
good news -- it means that chances of anything passing this session are
that much lower.

More as it comes,

Jonah (rooting for gridlock)


At 2:02 PM -0400 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Today's vote will be held in less than two hours. Keep in mind that this is
>just one committee out of five that's considering the SAFE bill. The impact
>of the committee's draft of SAFE is not nearly as important, IMHO, as the
>political impact of the vote. Can one of the nation's richest industries
>muster up the votes to defeat law enforcement -- in the //Commerce//
>committee, of all places? Many eyes will be watching the committee today.
>
>I hear that Oxley is nervous and has been calling people he never did
>before. His staff tells me that yes, he has been calling everyone on the
>committee. He'll be distributing letters of support from groups --
>including law enforcement groups in California -- that will buttress his
>amendment. Oxley's staff tells me the version of Oxley II posted by CDT is
>almost certainly inaccurate and out of date. Solomon, chair of House Rules,
>is circulating a letter saying only SAFE with Oxley will go to the floor.
>
>The pressure's on. Rumors are flying that industry may cut a deal (perhaps
>brokered by White) that may give up civil liberties in exchange for export
>controls. We'll see soon. As of yesterday Oxley appeared to have a majority
>of perhaps 32-34 out of the 51 or so people on the committee.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>>In case anybody is counting votes, my own congressman (Brian Bilbray, R-CA)
>>sits on the House Commerce committee. I just got a call back from his
>>staff saying that Bilbray opposes the Oxley amendment and continues
>>to support the original SAFE bill, which he co-sponsored.
>>
>>Any other word on how today's vote is going?
>>
>>Phil



* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151

                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger











From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 11:42:42 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:42:42 +0800
Subject: Oxley crypto update: vote in 90 minutes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> I'd be surprised if the version of Oxley II posted on our site is
> inaccurate (it's dated 12:14 pm yesterday), but it is possible that there
> is an Oxley III floating around somewhere. 

Like all language at this point, it's in flux. Oxley's staff says they
were working on this through late yesterday afternoon. But I suspect the
changes (if any) aren't going to substantially reshape the amendment.

-Declan







From announce at lists.zdnet.com  Wed Sep 24 11:53:20 1997
From: announce at lists.zdnet.com (announce at lists.zdnet.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:53:20 +0800
Subject: Announcing ZDU's Fall Course Catalog!
Message-ID: 



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT         9/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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From minow at apple.com  Wed Sep 24 11:54:54 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:54:54 +0800
Subject: Crypto articles in New York Times Cybertimes web site
Message-ID: 



There are several interesting articles in today's (Sep 24)
New York Times "Cybertimes" web page.

has an overview and links to other articles.

(This is a free page for USA sites, but requires a login and
password.)

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 11:57:50 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:57:50 +0800
Subject: Congress & Crypto: "No compromise" coalition letter
Message-ID: 



[This "no compromise" letter from ACLU, Eagle Forum, and other groups is
especially important since it's likely that industry groups may sign on to
compromise legislation. Also attached is a Reuters piece on Freeh's news
conference this morning and an excerpt from an E.C. official's talk also
this morning at the National Press Club. --Declan]

**************

An Open Letter to Members of the House Commerce Committee

September 24, 1997

No Domestic Controls, No Compromise on Privacy Protection
by Encryption

We write this letter to urge you to oppose the Oxley-Manton
amendment to H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom through
Encryption (SAFE) Act. While our organizations sometime
disagree emphatically with each other, we are all united in
asking you to oppose any and all attempts to limit the
right of all Americans to get and use whatever encryption
protection we want.

Specifically included among the proposals we urge you to
oppose are provisions like those found in the amendments to
H.R. 695 proposed by the FBI draft, the Intelligence
Committee, and the National Security Committee, and in the
McCain-Kerrey bill (S. 909) in the Senate.  We also urge
you to oppose as well any proposal establishing a legal
structure for key recovery even if temporarily "voluntary,"
any so-called "compromise" provision drawn from
Oxley-Manton or the other specified proposal, and any new
proposal that would limit the availability and use of
strong encryption.

Representatives of our organizations have already informed
Congress of our vigorous opposition to any anti-encryption
legislation.  We take this opportunity to underscore four
key points.

OXLEY-MANTON ATTACKS THE WAY ORDINARY AMERICANS USE
ENCRYPTION.

Without realizing it, ordinary Americans already use
encryption in their everyday lives.  Cordless and cellular
phones, and every digital phone system uses encryption to
protect privacy.  Oxley-Manton would require a backdoor
breech in encryption security distributed, manufactured or
sold after January 31, 2000. Online browsers for the
Internet also use encryption, with a similar backdoor
breech in security required by Oxley-Manton.  Every
computer that uses encryption � sometimes with just a
keystroke � to protect the contents of sensitive medical,
legal, religious counseling and other files would be
subject to the same Oxley-Manton backdoor breech in
security.

OXLEY-MANTON INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.

The Oxley-Manton amendment and the other proposals would
compel encryption programs to contain a "backdoor" for law
enforcement either by establishing a regime to recover the
keys to the scrambled message or by providing immediate
decoding of the message. The governments own experts,
however, conclude that the backdoor cannot be limited to
law enforcement. Instead, the backdoor makes the encryption
protection vulnerable to attack by prying neighbors,
business competitors, private investigators, and others who
want to profit from illicitly gained information. (See the
May 1996 report of the National Research Council.) A
mother, for example, arranging to pick up her child at day
care ought not have the safety of those arrangements
jeopardized by the Oxley-Manton backdoor breech in
security.

OXLEY-MANTON IGNORES THE FACT THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS NOT
PERFECT.

The Oxley-Manton amendment and the other proposals neglect
the fact that law enforcement agencies are human
institutions with some of their people subject to the
frailties common to human nature � prejudice, avarice,
arrogance and abuse of power. We need only to recall the
documented abuses of federal agents at Ruby Ridge, in
Filegate, in surveilling civil rights and religious
leaders, in harassing honest taxpayers and law-abiding
businesses � as well as those established instances of
police abuse at the local level � to understand that
placing unprecedented power in the hands of law enforcement
to violate the people�s privacy is extremely dangerous.

OXLEY-MANTON MAKES ORDINARY AMERICANS THE SERVANTS OF THE
STATE.

At the core of American political values is the fundamental
concept that individual Americans have certain rights and
that governments are instituted, in the words of the
Declaration of Independence, "to secure these rights." As a
free people, Americans are the masters -- not the servants
-- of the state. Indeed, our constitutional system is
founded on the principle that the people have certain
rights that cannot be violated. The Oxley-Manton amendment
and the other proposals reverse this relationship, making
the government�s appetite for spying on its citizens the
number one priority while requiring that ordinary Americans
constrict their lives, the protection for their families
and businesses,  in order to accommodate government
surveillance.  In doing so, the Oxley-Manton amendment and
the other proposals betray the essential values of our
democracy.

CONCLUSION

We urge you to stand up for the privacy and security of
Americans by opposing any and all of the provisions of the
Oxley-Manton amendment, the other amendments cited, the
McCain-Kerrey bill and any provision requiring or fostering
the development of a key recovery regime even if presented
initially as "voluntary."  We also urge you to reject any
so-called "compromise" based in whole or part on these
proposals.   Finally, we urge the removal of the
criminalization provision in H.R. 695, the SAFE bill.

Sincerely,

American Civil Liberties Union
Americans for Tax Reform
Eagle Forum
Electronic Privacy Information Center
Privacy International
United States Privacy Council


For more information, please contact:

Donald Haines, Legislative Counsel, American Civil Liberties Union,
202/675-2322; privaclu at aol.com.

James P. Lucier, Jr., Director of Economic Research, Americans for Tax
Reform, 202/785-0266;          lucier at atr.org.

Kris Ardizzone, Executive Director, Eagle Forum, 202/544-0353;
eagleforum at aol.com

David Sobel, Legal Counsel, Electronic Privacy Information Center,
202/544-9240; sobel at epic.org.

===

[An example of how hard the FBI is pressing encryption in the last few
hours before today's vote. This news conference was at 10:30 am today.
--Declan]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Armed with a sealed indictment, U.S.
officials stepped up the pressure today on Mexico's
most violent drug kingpin by offering a $2 million
reward and adding him to the FBI's most wanted list.

Ramon Arellano Felix, 33, the head of security for a
gang run by five brothers, is charged with drug
conspiracy and smuggling in a sealed federal
indictment in San Diego, FBI Director Louis J. Freeh
told a news conference.

[...]

Freeh used the news conference to push legislation,
now before a House committee, giving his agents access
to the keys to commercial encryption devices and
software used to scramble telephone conversations and
computer transmissions. "If a workable national
solution to the encryption problem is not enacted
soon," Freeh said, "we simply will loose our most
effective tool with respect to drug interdiction."

Constantine said in the last 18 months Mexican gangs
have increasingly used encryption, "purchased off the
shelf" in the United States, that is capable of
shielding their communications from most law
enforcement eavesdropping. "If their encryption
succeeds, we would never be able to find out who is in
charge of these organizations," Constantine said.

[...]

===

	NATIONAL PRESS CLUB MORNING NEWSMAKER
	SIR LEON BRITTAN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION
	NATIONAL PRESS CLUB
	WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1997

	Q     On the electronic commerce issue, is there a likelihood
	there will be a common position on encryption controls of exports,

        imports?

	SIR LEON:  Well, all of these things are currently the subject of
	discussion, and I think it's premature to say where it will end up.

===




-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Wed Sep 24 11:58:56 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (apache at bear.apana.org.au)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:58:56 +0800
Subject: NAMBLA
In-Reply-To: <970923211837_-994610816@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199709241848.EAA16464@bear.apana.org.au>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


    Boat1688 at aol.com said:

>How do I get some of these pics of boys in swimsuits?  

I know guys at the IRS have better things to do like sell tax files to 
the highest bidder. Couldn't u at least look like ur doing something 
usefull.


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=tfHv
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From enystrom at nscee.edu  Wed Sep 24 12:22:13 1997
From: enystrom at nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:22:13 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
In-Reply-To: <342abc87.8873306@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 phelix at vallnet.com wrote:

> >>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
> >>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
> >>more automated it is, the better.
> >
> >How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
> >(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?
> 
> Yes, I was thinking along these lines, though right now I'm concentrating
> on the client end of things.

I'm not sure that Usenet would necessarily be the best idea for a primary
source of remailer availability notices.  After all, the latency
associated with Usenet might be a problem.  And more to the point, some of
us have a problem reaching a news server.  On a company LAN connected to
the Internet, for example, any and every J. Random Eudora-user could or
would become a remailer.  (You could have 10 or 50 or more remailers per
organization -- enough that it would be difficult for the sysadmins to
squash them all.)  But most companies do not allow access to a news
server.  A client could telnet out to someplace in the outside world to
announce its presence or whatever, but not post to or read from Usenet.

I think Usenet would serve an important role as a secondary, backup source
of information that would support and mirror the pinging services.  But
to have Usenet as the only source of remailer availablility might be a
little short-sighted.

- -Eric Nystrom


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From trei at process.com  Wed Sep 24 13:05:43 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:05:43 +0800
Subject: NYT cybertimes article excerpt.
Message-ID: <199709241952.MAA24736@rigel.cyberpass.net>



quoted without permission - I think this is
fair use...

btw, the NY Times site is pretty good. While a
registration and email address are needed, I have
not seen any sign of abuse of this information (yet).

-----------------------------------------
start quote

          In fact, Kerrey's legislation could easily create the largest
          bureaucracy ever -- by
          some estimates requiring more record keeping than all the
          states' departments of motor vehicles, the Internal Revenue
          Service and the various welfare agencies combined. While no
          one knows how Congress or the FBI intends to carry out
          key-recovery legislation, it is entirely possible that
          anyone installing a piece of software on a hard drive will
          need to register it like people now register a car with the
          Department of Motor Vehicles. 

          While most people own only one car and file only one tax
          return a year, many computer users have multiple copies of
          programs like Quicken, Notes or Power Point. Each could
          require a separate registration if it includes encryption
          features -- and many users will be shocked to discover what
          qualifies as encryption, which is becoming increasingly
          common even in trivial programs like games because it is a
          good way to regulate copyright infringement. 

[...]

          One Congressional staff member who participated in drafting the
          legislation but asked not to be identified
          conceded that the bill would force developers of new
          software to seek approval for their products from the United
          States government even if the products did not explicitly
          include encryption features. Such approval would be the only
->        way to escape prosecution, he said. While admitting that
->        this language would add a six- to nine-month delay in
->        releasing new products, the staff member asserted that the
->        computer industry would simply have to build this time into
->        product development cycles. 


end quote
--------------------------------------

This "Congressional staff member" is clearly a ninth-dan black belt
ninja of cluelessness. Add 6-9 months to SW development cycles?
Prior restraint on SW publication? The mind boggles. 

Anyone who maintains that the convenience of law enforcement should 
be the over-riding factor in the organization of our society has, 
in my opinion, lost the right to call themselves an "American."


Peter Trei
trei at process.com

DISCLAIMER: My opinons. No one elses.






From reinhold at world.std.com  Wed Sep 24 13:21:39 1997
From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:21:39 +0800
Subject: The CipherSaber Manifesto
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In George Lucas' Star Wars trilogy, Jedi Knights were expected to make
their own Light Sabers. The message was clear: a warrior confronted by
a powerful empire bent on totalitarian control must be self-reliant.
As we face a real threat of a ban on the distribution of strong
cryptography -- in the United States and possibly world-wide -- we
must emulate the Jedi masters by teaching people how to build strong
cryptography programs all by themselves. If this can be done, strong
cryptography will become impossible to suppress.

While cryptographers like to wallow in the complexity of their art,
the basic elements of a strong cryptographic system are quite simple
and well known in the programming community. By choosing a simple but
strong cipher that is already widely published and agreeing on how to
use it, anyone with elementary programming skills will be able to
write their own program without relying on any products that can be
banned.

CipherSaber-1 (CS1) uses Ron Rivest's RC4 algorithm as published in
the second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography. RC4 is
widely respected and used in a number of products, including SSL. With
a long enough key RC4 is considered strong and it is also
extraordinarily easy to explain and to reproduce. As Schneier says,
"The algorithm is so simple that most programmers can quickly code it
from memory." Implementations of RC4 are available on the Internet but
it is actually easier to write your own version.

The legal status of RC4 is the subject of some controversy. The RSA
division of Security Dynamics still considers RC4 confidential and
proprietary. It is not patented and, to the extent that Schneier is
correct (and no one doubts him), it is not confidential. However,
anyone wishing to build a commercial product using CipherSaber might
find it cost-effective, as well as polite, to obtain a license from
RSA. Apologies to Prof. Rivest for suggesting individuals use his
invention without his consent. If there were another strong algorithm
so singularly suitable, CipherSaber would have used it.

CipherSaber-1 is a symmetric-key file encryption system. Messaging
takes place by attaching binary files to e-mail. Because CipherSaber
uses a stream cipher, an initialization vector must be used to prevent
the same cipher key from being used twice. In encrypted CipherSaber-1
files, a ten byte initialization vector precedes the coded data. For
decryption, the initialization vector is read from the file and
appended to the user key before the key setup step.

CipherSaber-1 can be implemented in 16 lines of QBasic (38 individual
Basic statements). The source code is short enough for tee-shirts and
coffee mugs. But there is no need to distribute source code at all.
CipherSaber can be passed on by oral tradition, if necessary.

Soapbox

The U.S. Congress is considering legislation that would ban the
domestic distribution of cryptographic products that do not provide
for immediate government access to the plaintext of messages. This
government access must be possible without the consent or even the
knowledge of the message{s sender or recipient. The stated intent is
to protect us from criminals and terrorists.

The simplicity of CipherSaber should prove once and for all that the
criminals and terrorists of this world will not be deprived of strong
cryptography simply because the distribution of unapproved products is
banned. They can get the necessary technology to make their own from
existing publications whenever they feel they need it.

Another goal of CipherSaber is to demonstrate that strong cryptography
cannot be banned without severe restrictions on freedom of speech.
Banning the sale of a complex computer program or even the
multi-volume printed edition of PGP source code may seem acceptable to
many people. Banning the simple instructions needed for CipherSaber
will require the starkest abridgment of the First Amendment.

Finally, CipherSaber can be a useful pedagogical tool, helping to
educate students by presenting them with a real-world programming
problem that has both technical and ethical dimensions. Teachers of
computer science and authors of books on programming should consider
including CipherSaber as an exercise in their courses and texts.

CipherSaber in some sense parallels the time honored doctrine of jury
nullification, where jurors simply refuse to convict persons of
violating laws that the jurors determine are unreasonable or unjust.
Similarly technologists may take lawful steps as individuals to
prevent their work from being used to build a totalitarian
infrastructure. It is not that the present U.S. Government is evil --
it may well be the most benign government in history. But once the
technology for totalitarian control is in place, this or any
government will inexorably use it more and more. And that technology
is coming together with alarming rapidity. George Orwell{s novel 1984
is not science fiction, it is just one more high tech product plan
that missed its original delivery date.

So what is CipherSaber?

CipherSaber-1 is a  simple use of existing technology:

1. The encryption algorithm is RC4 as published in the beginning of
Chapter 17 of Applied Cryptography, Second Edition, by Bruce Schneier,
 John Wiley & Sons, New York, 1996. RC4 is on page 397 in the English
edition, ISBN 0-471-11709-9.

2. Each encrypted file consists of a ten byte initialization vector
followed by the cipher text.
A new random ten byte initialization vector should be created each
time encryption is performed.

3. The cipher key, the array K(i) in Schneier's notation, consists of
the user key, in the form of an Ascii text string, followed by the
initialization vector.

The above is all a programmer needs to know in order to write a
program that can encipher and decipher CipherSaber-1 files.

Explanation of CipherSaber-1 features

The user key is a text string, rather than a hex value, because humans
are more likely to be able to memorize a text string with sufficient
entropy. To leave room for the initialization vector, the length of
the user key must be less than 246 bytes. A user key with a minimum of
15 random letters or 6 short words selected at random from a
dictionary should be used for medium security (70 bit entropy).  For
higher security use 20 random letters or seven random words. (90 bit
entropy).

Any unique values can be used for initialization vector, but use of
random values makes encrypted files indistinguishable from random
noise. Note that the initialization vector is not kept secret. The
random number generation used to make the initialization vector does
not have to be particularly strong. The "rand" functions in most
programming environments will suffice for a moderate number of
messages, provided the function is seeded in some non-deterministic
way, such as using the system clock.

For file encryption, a user need only memorize one key or passphrase.
For messaging, users need to exchange pairs of keys through some
secure means, most likely in person. Maintaining a list of
correspondent{s keys or passphrases in a master file, preferably
encrypted, is less convenient than public key encryption. But it may
be all that is left in a few years if PGP key servers are banned.

It may even be possible to teach a manual version of the
Diffie-Hellman key exchange, perhaps using large number calculators
(easily built in Java 1.1). The D-H procedure need be carried out just
once per pair of correspondents, since CipherSaber eliminates the need
to exchange keys for every message.

Users can, of course, add features of their own to CipherSaber
programs. For example a secure diary system that stored files in
CipherSaber would be easy to write in Java or Visual Basic. However it
is important to keep CipherSaber itself simple so everyone can write a
program that will read and write CipherSaber files.

CipherSaber programs can be easily written in almost any programming
language. The Basic language, which used to come with all DOS based
computers, is suitable. It can still be found on the Windows {95
CD-ROM in the OTHER\OLDMSDOS directory. Just copy QBASIC.EXE and
QBASIC.HLP to your hard drive{s DOS directory and you can start
programming. Macintosh users can download the free Chipmunk Basic
interpreter from the Internet. Begin by writing a program that can
copy binary files byte by byte and then test it thoroughly before you
add the encryption algorithm.

Become a CipherKnight

To popularize CipherSaber, a "gif" file, encrypted using CipherSaber,
has been posted on the Internet at
http://ciphersaber.gurus.com/cknight.cs1 This file, when decoded, can
be printed as a CipherKnight wall certificate. The certificate may be
displayed by persons who met certain criteria, including writing the
program that decrypted the certificates. Here are the
honor-system-enforced rules:

CipherKnight requirements

1. Write you own CipherSaber program.
2. Write a letter to your political representative expressing your
opinion (whatever it may be) of the proposed ban on the distribution
of strong cryptography within the United States.
3. Download and install PGP,  generate a key pair and post it to a
public key server.
4. Use a CipherSaber to send an secret message to another person.
5. Decrypt and print the CipherSaber wall certificate using the
CipherSaber program you wrote yourself. The key is: "ThomasJefferson"

Any of the eligibility requirements above is waved if it illegal in
the applicant's local jurisdiction or if the applicant reasonably
believes carrying it out would place him or her in danger.

Test Files

The following files are provided on the CipherSaber web site,
http://ciphersaber.gurus.com, to help you check your work.

cstest1.cs1
This is a short text file encrypted with "asdfg" as the user key. Here
are the contents of cstest1.cs1 in hex, in case you cannot download
the file for some reason:
6f 6d 0b ab f3 aa 67 19 03 15 30 ed b6 77 ca 74 e0 08 9d d0
e7 b8 85 43 56 bb 14 48 e3 7c db ef e7 f3 a8 4f 4f 5f b3 fd

cstest2.cs1
This text file was CipherSaber-1 encrypted with the key
"SecretMessageforCongress" Remember that keys are case sensitive.

cknight.cs1
This file is encrypted with the key "ThomasJefferson" It contains your
CipherKnight wall certificate as a .gif file.

chalng.cs1
chalng.cs1 is a text file encrypted with CipherSaber-1 and a secret
key. A reward of $100 will be paid to anyone who can decipher this
file.

Spread the Word

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become prey
to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man
is eternal vigilance."
John Philpot Curran, 1790

Even if the proposed ban on strong cryptography does not become law
this year, it is important that CipherSaber be distributed as widely
as possible throughout North America. Please help in any legal way you
can.


Arnold G. Reinhold
Cambridge, Massachusetts
arnold at iecc.com
http://ciphersaber.gurus.com
September 23, 1997

- ------------------------------------------
Ascii key+  ||  08d0a5d961603380e2949d682c
10 Byte IV  ||  bfe8da5c1dec3aba9725d4f689
Ron's No.4  ||  40761763d4d38935e8bd8a44bf
All u need ==== 4656a7bd7f9ae5d082a30cdfa7
CipherSaber ||  f21a918d29c5917956d0468eaf
- ------------------------------------------

Legal Notice

CipherSaber programs may be subject to export controls in the United
States, and many other countries and may be illegal altogether in some
countries. Persons within the United States should not give copies of
CipherSaber programs to foreign nationals, except for Canadian
citizens, without a license. Persons traveling to other countries
should familiarize themselves with local regulations. Consult a lawyer
if you need legal advice.

See the CipherSaber web site http://ciphersaber.gurus.com for
additional notices.

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KHjU43k/A44=
=bIlj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 24 14:11:42 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:11:42 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Letter
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970922112723.00823294@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: 





> We offer a recent letter from Jim Bell that describes
> prison and his prospects:

I gather that Jim has been sentenced recently during my absence from the 
list, can you tell me what charges he was convicted on and how long he 
was sentenced to? 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 14:14:06 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:14:06 +0800
Subject: Update from the House Commerce Committee hearing room
Message-ID: 



I'm sitting on the steps of the Rayburn House office building right now
waiting for the committee to resume deliberations on the SAFE encryption
bill. They've adjourned to vote on unrelated legislation on the House floor.

Right now it seems as though votes are split between Rep. White's
"compromise" legislation (that includes a cash payoff to the FBI and
doubling of crypto-in-a-crime penalties while relaxing some export rules)
and Rep. Oxley's proposal that includes domestic controls on encryption. If
I had to bet, though, I'd put my money on Oxley. Law enforcement arguments
about pedophiles generally trump discussions of privacy rights.

If White's proposal fails and Oxley's goes through, industry groups are
hoping they can keep themselves from being entirely screwed by pushing
through a third amendment that apparently would replace SAFE entirely with
a five-month study. (But who would appoint the people conducting the study?
Law enforcement? It's unclear.)

Rep. Solomon, chair of the powerful House Rules committee -- through which
SAFE must pass before it gets to the floor -- earlier today circulated a
letter asking members to support the Oxley amendment. "If this language is
not incorporated into the bill, as the Chairman of the House Rules
Committee I will not move the bill to the floor!" it says.

FBI director Louis Freeh, DEO head Thomas Constantine, and Raymond Kelley
(undersecretary for enforcement, Treasury Department) also sent a letter
earlier today to the Commerce Committee endorsing Oxley's amendment "on
behalf of the entire law enforcement community."

They don't seem to be exaggerating. The International Association of Chiefs
of Police on September 22 said just that. So did the National Sherrifs'
Association yesterday. And the National District Attorneys Association on
September 19. And the Major Cities Chiefs on September 23. Plus a few state
police associations.

More soon...

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Wed Sep 24 14:31:46 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:31:46 +0800
Subject: You Used MY Name?!?!?
Message-ID: 



To: senator at feinstein.senate.gov
From: HugeCajones Remailer
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X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonster.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole under the
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer 
X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and
X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)
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Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results. 
It can make people really nervous and think maybe they should get
you first. Sometimes they hire other people to get you before you get
them�really bad people sometimes. Sometimes even bad people who
act like they are good people and fool everyone until they kill you.
Which brings me to the point I am trying to make:
You should not try to kill the Constitution any more because there is
not enough left to make people safe and they might get really nervous
and think maybe they should get you first�or even after. For revenge.

People like the Constitution a lot and if you are making a death threat
against it then it is like saying your going to kill someone else�s
friend or family and everyone knows that they will kill you because 
they are domestic and not a stranger.  Or is it that they are stranger 
and not domesticated?
Never mind. You know what I mean. 
Especially if you try to make it so that they cannot put aluminum foil
hats on their thoughts and their words and their writing. Then they 
get really, really, nervous and maybe start thinking that they have to
kill everybody because they are not safe from anybody. 
You should be careful if you find yourself walking next to someone
whistling that Crosby Stills & Nash song "If you cant kill the one you
love�then kill the one you�re with." (� That�s a joke but it would
be really funny if you took it serious and whacked someone out for
whistling it anyway.) (Its not like they have a Constitutional right to
whistle it or anything....hee, hee.)

You should be careful before you vote to kill the Constitution and look
under all your chairs and stuff, just in case. You should maybe look in
your conscience too and see if you are not a bad person maybe. You
should also maybe look in a mirror and make sure you are not cross
eyed and that there is nobody beside you whistling that song "If looks
could kill�then you would only be hurting yourself."(<== that's a joke.)

Even if you do think you can kill the Constitution and still have all of
the people believe you are not a bad person then you should at least
try not to let really stupid people who you work with say things like
"I am too stupid to learn about this stuff so I am going to let the guys
who want to make aluminum foil hats illegal and put everyone in jail
decide how I vote to kill the Constitution."
The one those guys who always say "Nuke DC" call Swinestein said
that and it made everyone think you are all that stupid and going to
let people with guns who kill women and children make your votes
for you. Then even more of them say "Nuke DC" especially when they
remember how bad the guys with the guns that you are letting vote for
you fucked their friend (sorry but thats what they did) for making a 
stink with the IRS.

That is really all I am trying to say. Is that you should be careful
that you dont kill so much of the Constitution and let the guys with 
the guns screw so many people that nobody feels safe from them anymore
because they wont just get nervous about them they will get nervous
about you too because you promised to protect them and didnt.
Just try to remember that it never ends.
If you take away some of the guns from people then you have to take
away all the guns or you are in big trouble. If you take away some of
the Constitution from people then you have to take away all of the
Constitution or you are in big trouble.
Even if you think you took away all of the things that people can use
to be safe and free then they will make more�like Doritos. 
If you try to kill them with bullshit then they will try to kill you
with their own brand of fertilizer. If you take away their aluminum 
foil hats then they will make hats out of paper and call them 
Forever Young.

Killing the Constitution is a lot like killing DC�if your going to do
it then you might as well do it right and do it all at once.
Guys with guns who want to kill Freeh-dumb know that and so do
guys with nukes who are Freeh-dumb fighters. (My uncle made up a
new word about him�he said he "testiLies to Congress.")

Don�t be a stranger,
APlayerToBeNamedLater
p.s - If you see Declan McCullagh getting in his car and driving like
hell away from the city then you should get in your car and do the 
same thing. You dont need to pack a suitcase because I think if he
does that then there is already one packed.
(Thats what the guys with guns told you in your secret meetings so 
you will kill the Constitution for them isnt it?)
p.p.s.- If you hear someone say "President Freeh" then do not wait for
Declan just get the hell out of there real fast anyway. You can come 
to my place if you want and help me send out secret aluminum foil
hats. (Bring a whoopee cushion and we will make little funny booms
instead of big scary ones. We are a little more laid back out here in
the country than you guys in the big city.)







From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 24 14:40:06 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:40:06 +0800
Subject: SAFE = Security and Fascism through Escrow
Message-ID: 




As our Big Brothers in D.C. continue to abuse the language by taking SAFE
in a direction 180 degrees from the original intentions, it seems only fair
that we rename the bill the Security and Fascism through Escrow Bill.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From gbroiles at netbox.com  Wed Sep 24 14:53:08 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:53:08 +0800
Subject: BXA TAC meeting in Portland yesterday
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924143912.00a733c0@mail.io.com>




As noted previously by John Young , the
Department of Commerce's Bureau of Export Administration's Technical
Advisory Committee held a meeting yesterday in Portland, OR. C2Net paid for
me to fly up to Portland and attend the meeting. The following are notes re
what happened -

It was difficult to determine precisely who is on the Committee and who
isn't; the meeting room had a table with seats for (approx) 15 people; at
that table were seated approx. 10 people who were representing
hardware/software manufacturers, law firms, 2 people from BXA, two "special
guests" from European companies (whose names I didn't recognize), and two
"special guests" from Japanese companies - Susumi Hirai for Sony, and
Kobashi Toduchi for NEC. (apologies for the spelling re Japanese names,
those are my guesses at the correct spellings, but I bet they're wrong.)
There were seats in an "audience section" for another 30 people, all of
which were occupied. Among the companies represented (either in the
audience or on the committee) were Tektronix, Boeing, Dept of Energy,
Motorola, Intel, Rockwell, Novell, McDonnell-Douglas, Boeing, Cisco, and
Sun, and C2Net. The attorney who spoke at a Cypherpunks meeting this spring
re export control was there, don't know if he was there on behalf of PGP
and/or other clients. (arrgh, didn't write his name down because I
remembered it, now I can't remember it.) There was an attorney representing
a consortium of manufacturers.

The meeting opened with a short summary/discussion of current events - this
part produced the most information relevant to crypto and export control
issues. Eileen at BXA (didn't get her last name), who seems to be in charge
of drafting regulations and granting/denying export licenses, said that
they've been slow recently re actions on crypto-related licenses because
they're understaffed, but they have recently hired 10 people to process
crypto-related applications, 8 of whom are in public-contact positions. She
said that they don't have a technical background, but are considered policy
analysts; that they've been receiving technical training from "other
agencies", but their technical training (and their ability to get straight
to work) has been hampered by the slowness of getting security clearances
for them. 2 of the 10 have already been cleared/approved. She said that
they've been learning about the "history of encryption". The public-contact
positions will each handle a section of the alphabet - so, for example, the
first person will handle export applications from individuals/companies
with names starting from A through F, and so on.

Eileen said that they have been circulating a new draft of encryption
regulations relating to/concerning financial institutions; a draft of it
was apparently circulated (I think) to a closed-session meeting of the
Committee previously. One of the committee members asked her for a ballpark
estimate of the date when those regs will be released for public comment,
and she deferred, saying that there were "so many agencies" that had to
look at them that it was too difficult to guess. Apparently, the most
difficult/controversial part of these regulations concerns the definition
of a financial institution (FI); she said that they've been granting
licenses to applicants who are clearly FI's, and that organizations who
think that they might qualify as an FI should write to BXA and request an
advisory letter or opinion letter about whether or not they qualify.

She also said that they've been drafting and circulating export regulations
designed to implement the Wassenaar Arrangement; they've been circulating
inter-agency. She said that they anticipate having the final draft finished
at the end of this week or the beginning of next week, at which point it'll
be sent to the Federal Register for publication; and that FR publication
will take 2 more weeks, so these ought to be available to the public
sometime in mid-October.

She also noted that BXA has been relatively inactive with respect to
enforcement actions re cryptography, but that the enforcement/compliance
section of BXA has also made new hires, and that they anticipate ramping up
enforcement. 5-6 people from the enforcement section were at the meeting
(turns out I sat right next to them) but they all left at 10 AM for another
meeting - among them a DOC/BXA attorney I recognized from the Bernstein
hearings.

After that, the committee spent approx. 2 hours discussing nonproliferation
controls (related to nuclear/biological/chemical weapons) - I didn't bother
with a lot of notes about that, since it's not especially interesting to me
right now. There was a lot of discussion about how difficult it is to
determine whether or not an export is allowed or not - as I understand the
regs it's not permissible to export *anything* which will be used in aid of
producing N/B/C weapons, even otherwise unassuming things like lightbulbs
or ballpoint pens or carpeting or whatever. (I don't know much about this
area of export law, so please don't take my impressions as especially
informative, haven't done reading/research re this and I may be full of
shit. caveat emptor.) Everyone who doesn't work for the government
expressed frustration re the difficulty of figuring out how much effort
they need to put into tracking down the ultimate user(s) and purpose(s) of
otherwise innocuous exports - the BXA folks weren't very helpful, pointing
out that they're going to exercise their discretion not to enforce/punish
exporters who really weren't at fault, but that there were no hard and fast
rules available, either. The discussion here reminded me very much of
recent testimony by the Commerce Dept before Congress - they're more
concerned with intelligence (collecting data re who's buying what, in what
quantities, and when) than they are with preventing people from gaining
access to goods. 

There was also some discussion about foreign implementations of crypto
export controls and Wassenaar - apparently Jim Lewis (the name isn't
familiar to me) and David Aaron are currently in London, lobbying re crypto
export control/key escrow, and a delegation will go to France, Bonn, and
Tel Aviv later this month on a similar mission.

One speaker said that he expects the UK to adopt controls re "intangible"
items - by this he seemed to mean control over the export of "technical
data" and "technical assistance" related to controlled items, similar to
the US' control over providing data/information/assistance to foreigners
related to export-controlled items. It was also noted that there are a lot
of "informal contacts" in the UK between universities and employers and the
visa office, such that the UK has been able to control some access by
foreign people to technical data and information, by refusing them a visa
or otherwise making their desires clear to the people in the UK who they
expect would have contact with the foreign person.

Re Japan, it was noted that Japan began enforcing much stricter export
controls at the end of 1996, shortly after NTI developed a 3DES chip; MITI
(Japan's "technology" ministry? perhaps someone can provide more data here)
has concluded that exports of crypto stronger than 56 bits should be
subject to strict export control. Japan does not have a "general license"
scheme, whereby some products are generally considered eligible for export,
which would apply to crypto - apparently all exports equire a license.
About 100 Japanese companies have applied for or been granted (couldn't
tell from the context) export licenses for crypto. Japan does not have
special "financial institution" exceptions to its crypto export control
laws; but it does implement the "mass market software" exception for crypto
which is part of the Wassenaar Arrangement.

There was some discussion re crypto export control in the EU; the speakers
noted that crypto control laws apply to GSM phones, which (potentially)
would have made them non-portable across national borders, which everyone
(including governments) thought was a stupid result, so GSM phones are
(formally? informally? couldn't tell) exempt from the export control laws.
Similarly, it is now legal to have/use crypto on a laptop for personal use;
at one time, this was not the case, but large companies' policy was that
crypto should be used anyway, regardless of the export control laws. EU
countries are also (apparently) writing the "mass market software"
exception to the WA's control over crypto into their regulations; one
speaker commented that the EU countries are "working on" key recovery. (the
term used was "key escrow").

The consensus of the speakers seemed to be that the TTP/key escrow draft
legislation for the UK is effectively dead, due to the shift in power to
Labor. It was also noted that the Walsh Report re crypto in Australia
recommends that purchasers of crypto equipment in Australia avoid depending
solely on US-based sources for crypto, because of the danger that the US
may implement mandatory key recovery.

I'm on the mailing list to get formal minutes from the meeting, but that
can apparently take up to 90 days. The next meeting will be 12/9/97 in D.C..


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From aptbnl at dev.null  Wed Sep 24 14:53:27 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:53:27 +0800
Subject: Kill a Cop--Save a Child / Re: Update from the House Commerce Committee hearing room
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <342986AA.1389@dev.null>



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Law enforcement arguments
> about pedophiles generally trump discussions of privacy rights.

  The problem seems to be that LEA's are full to the brim with 
incompetent officers who are incapable of enforcing the laws of
the land without violating the citizen's Constitutional rights.
  The solution? Make room in the LEA's for people who *are* 
capable of doing so.

  The US has more of their citizen-units in prison than most of the
'bad' countries that they claim to be protecting us from, yet they
turn around and tell us that, despite the mountains of our cash they
are demanding to keep their protection racket going, that they cannot
protect our children from the great hordes of child molesters and
drug czars who are running free while they spend their time arresting
grandmothers who are putting money in parking meters and confiscating
the vehicles of other grandmothers who have a joint in their car.

  Let me get this straight...
  These dweebs are capable of finding a single joint in a vehicle
travelling amoung thousands of others on the freeway, but they are
incapable of finding a ton of cocaine in an airport with less than
a hundred planes in it?
  These idiots need to be able to invade *everyone's* privacy in
order to catch the millions of pedophiles lurking on the InterNet,
but they can't catch them *now* when it is likely that hardly
any of them know squat about strong encryption?

  Why are the LEA's salaries not tied directly to the price of drugs
on the street? Because, with the price of heroin at a record low for
the decade, then these thieving fucks would be making less than the
minimum wage!

  How about a new system of LEA payments, etc., that is based on
*results*?
  Low drug prices, low LEA salaries. If you are victimized by a
criminal, you get to kill 1 cop. If you are victimized by a cop,
you get to kill 1 politician. If you are victimized by a politician,
you get to Nuke DC!
  "Do you feel lucky, Mr. President? Well...do you?"

> FBI director Louis Freeh, DEO head Thomas Constantine, and Raymond Kelley
> (undersecretary for enforcement, Treasury Department) also sent a letter
> earlier today to the Commerce Committee endorsing Oxley's amendment "on
> behalf of the entire law enforcement community."
> 
> They don't seem to be exaggerating. The International Association of Chiefs
> of Police on September 22 said just that. So did the National Sherrifs'
> Association yesterday. And the National District Attorneys Association on
> September 19. And the Major Cities Chiefs on September 23. Plus a few state
> police associations.

  Uuhhh...are these the guys who can't understand what the crack dealers
are saying?
  Is there a "use of Ebonics in the commission of a crime" provision in
the Oxhead amendment?

  I'm willing to compromise. We hand over our secret keys on the 
condition that if a single key, anywhere in the world, is compromised
by their system, we get to kill every legislator who voted for GAK.
  This, in itself, is likely to result in the elimination, in one 
single year, of more drug dealers and pedophiles than would result
from a hundred years of GAK.

  On the other hand, I am willing to admit that GAK might prove useful
for saving lives in other countries that need to track the activities
of US Foreign-Law Breaking Agencies who are murdering their citizens
by slipping bad components into their imported parts and supplies.

  These fuckers are all crazy...

A Player To Be Named Later






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 24 14:56:00 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:56:00 +0800
Subject: Congress & Crypto: "No compromise" coalition letter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:24 AM -0700 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
\
>[An example of how hard the FBI is pressing encryption in the last few
>hours before today's vote. This news conference was at 10:30 am today.
>--Declan]

>Freeh used the news conference to push legislation,
>now before a House committee, giving his agents access
>to the keys to commercial encryption devices and
>software used to scramble telephone conversations and
>computer transmissions. "If a workable national
>solution to the encryption problem is not enacted
>soon," Freeh said, "we simply will loose our most
>effective tool with respect to drug interdiction."

Yes, we will "loose" some powerful tools. (Spelling flames aside, this use
of "loose" when "lose" is meant is becoming incredibly common on the Net. I
don't know who made this "loose" error, or if was just an honest typo.)

More importantly, just how does Freeh think the SAFE bill, with amendments
seen so far, will affect the tens of thousands of already bought or
downloaded encryption pacakages, or the dozens or perhaps hundreds or more
"secure telephones" already sold by ComSec and others? Unless these are
banned in _use_, and even lending them becomes a felony, and other even
more draconian laws are passed, there will be a never-exhausted supply of
strong crypto for many years to come.

Hey, maybe I could sell my 3DES secure phone for quite a tidy profit? (Yes,
such a sale would technically be illegal under SAFE (Security and Fascism
through Escrow), so the idea, if I want to not violate the law, will be to
let them "use" my machine. Nothing against this in the amendments I've
seen.)

But we all know that the next iteration will ban use.

"Use a random number, go to jail." (I think this was from E. Hughes.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From minow at apple.com  Wed Sep 24 15:16:15 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:16:15 +0800
Subject: What is a crypto product. Was [nobody@replay.com: Re: "priorproducts"]
In-Reply-To: <199709170339.AA02198@swan.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 



(I've changed the list from coderpunks to cypherpunks, as this is
getting off-topic for the former list.)

At 12:48 AM -0500 9/17/97, Black Unicorn wrote:
>
>This brings up interesting coding implications.  What is a "cryptographic
>product" and to what extent can key generation be seperated from the
>definition.  To what extent do we want it to be?
>

I would say that a "cryptographic product" is any [insert patent
lawyer language here] that can be used to encrypt or decrypt a
message, and a "key" (the thing you escrow) is the mechanism
by which a message is converted between plaintext and encrypted
text. (Note, then, that I am including both halves of a public
key pair.)

By this, admittedly devil's advocate, reasoning, the sender would
have to escrow the actual session key, not just the private
key that the receiver uses to recover the session key. After all,
if you use PGP to encrypt a message using a public key -- and
don't possess the corresponding private key -- you couldn't read
your own message, but my reading of the law is that the
government still must have immediate access to the plaintext.

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com







From markm at voicenet.com  Wed Sep 24 15:25:56 1997
From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:25:56 +0800
Subject: Jim Bell Letter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> I gather that Jim has been sentenced recently during my absence from the 
> list, can you tell me what charges he was convicted on and how long he 
> was sentenced to? 

Jim pleaded guilty to "interfering with an IRS agent" or somesuch and use
of a false Social Security Number.  According to
http://www.jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm, his sentencing is scheduled for
October 17.

>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 
> 



Mark






From agarcia at Starbase.NeoSoft.COM  Wed Sep 24 16:02:37 1997
From: agarcia at Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Anthony Garcia)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:02:37 +0800
Subject: FWD: Dear Representative Oxley
Message-ID: <199709242252.RAA14004@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>



For what it's worth.  -Anthony

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:47:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Anthony Garcia 
To: Mike.Oxley at mail.house.gov
cc: agarcia
Subject: Dear Representative Oxley

At this time, it looks like your ignorant, anti-Constitutional
amendment to the Safety And Freedom through Encryption Act will be
passed by the Commerce Committee.  This legislation may go on to
be passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.

In case this occurs, I would like you to make note of my home
address and telephone number.  They are:

Anthony Garcia
[address & phone elided for broadcast on cypherpunks list]

If I move to a new address in the future, I will update you.

I telling you this because I fully intend to willfully break
your stupid law exactly 1 minute after the moment it goes into
effect on January 1st, 1999.

I will:
- Manufacture an encryption product that does not support key
  escrow (I will compile source code for encryption software
  which does not support key escrow.)
- Offer to sell that encryption product to any takers for
  the sum of $1.
- Offer that encryption product for free to the public via FTP or HTTP
  file transfer over the Internet.
- Import an encryption software product which does not support
  key escrow by means of file transfer over the Internet from
  a foreign source.

So, get ready to arrest me, Big Mike.  Get out your old FBI shield and
shine it up, because I AM GOING TO BREAK YOUR LAW.  GOT IT?

Sincerely,
-Anthony Garcia
agarcia at neosoft.com

P.S.  When you have some free time, look up a document known as the
"Bill of Rights", and review the sections titled "First Amendment" and
"Fourth Amendment".






From JuanPyro at aol.com  Wed Sep 24 17:07:58 1997
From: JuanPyro at aol.com (JuanPyro at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:07:58 +0800
Subject: bombs
Message-ID: <970924195003_-899596690@emout12.mail.aol.com>



im writing a screenplay and need very detailed instructions on how to make a
bomb






From reusch at home.com  Wed Sep 24 17:19:35 1997
From: reusch at home.com (Reusch)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:35 +0800
Subject: Just don't get GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970924200403.007a69a0@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>



>From the DOJs' letter to all CongressPersons in re SAFE,
http://jya.com/hr105-108-pt4.htm, signed by Reno and Freeh, one has

"Further, today's international drug trafficking
organizations are the most powerful, ruthless and affluent
criminal enterprises we have ever faced. We know from numerous
past investigations that they have utilized their virtually
unlimited wealth to purchase sophisticated electronic equipment
to facilitate their illegal activities."

How can anyone expect that mandated GAK will do anything
at all to prevent "affluent criminal enterprises" from using
steganography, covert channels, etc. and why is this point never 
directly addressed?

Lord knows I can use the dinero and I can stego this months'
receipts mui pronto. Entende amigo?

Am I supposed to believe that tools for steganography, etc. are
not already widely and irretrievably disseminated? Or am I to 
assume that gaked traffic between inept felons is so valuable as 
to justify the $? infrastructure implied by the Weldon/Dellums and/or
Oxley amendments (what awaits in the Senate)?

US security agencies have recently emphasized the value of intelligence
received from unencrypted channels (don't remember where). Perhaps, this 
is because they decrypt ever less and less of the remainder.

But if traffic between the duh set is that great, why not just maintain the
status quo? Or is this some evil plot to listen to our bathroom sounds?

Abracos,

	Puzzled






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Wed Sep 24 17:27:07 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:27:07 +0800
Subject: Installation Procedures
Message-ID: <199709250010.CAA20103@basement.replay.com>



----- Begin Included Message -----


------------------------------------------------------------------------
INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE:

Introduction

Thank you for purchasing InCom's PowerComp Libraries.  At InCom,
customer satisfaction is our number one priority, and we hope that you 
will be pleased with the power of our libraries.  Please follow all of 
the instructions in order to enjoy a quick and easy installation.

Getting Started

In this guide, information which you will need to supply will be 
enclosed in angle brackets, .  Commands which you will have 
to enter will be indented,
        like this.

You will need to provide a loading directory, in which to load the 
material from tape (/tmp/pcl is recommended), and a permanent 
installation  directory (/usr/local/pcl is recommended).


Loading From Tape

First create and change directory to the loading directory:
        mkdir 
        cd 

Now you are ready to load the software from tape.

The specific device name needed to load the tape varies with hardware
vendors, and may be found in Appendix A, "Vendors and Device Names".

Load the software from tape:
        tar xvf /dev/

You have now loaded all of the software from tape, and are ready to 
compile and install the PowerComp libraries.


Compiling and Installing the PowerComp Libraries

Compiling and installing the libraries is handled by a user-friendly 
shell script.  You will need to provide some information to the script, 
such as your organization name and registration number.  To run the 
script, type
        /bin/sh pcl/pcl.install -d 

Follow the script's directions, and provide the information which it 
prompts for.

When the script prompts you for the directory in which the distribution 
files are located, you will find that you are unable to provide it with 
any directory which the script will deem satisfactory.  That is because 
it is necessary to order the following additional parts which are 
necessary to continue with the installation:

        Part Number     Qty     Name                            Price

        GM-96-3026      1       Goat, male                       1000.00

        CB-13-2395      1       Candle, black                      50.00

        CG-63-6376      1       Chalk dust container               10.00

        IB-89-3335      5       Incense sticks                      5.00

        DE-44-8846      1       Dagger, ebon, curved              500.00

        AS-87-2319      1       Altar, silver                   10000.00

Wait until the additional parts arrive; you will be ready to continue 
the installation the next Friday the 13th at midnight.

Ritual for Successfully Completing Installation

Stand in front of the computer.  Pour out the chalk dust in an inscribed
pentagram around you; be sure that it is without breaks.  Set an incense
stick at each of the five corners, the altar in front of the computer, 
and the candle in front of the altar.

Light each of the incense sticks and the candles, chanting in a low
voice:
        Daemons and spirits of the netherworld
        Forces of all that is chaotic and mysterious
        Essence of Netscape and MicroSoft

        I am coming here to appease you
        I offer you this goat
        That my software may work

        I bind you here
        Do not make my system crash
        Let the software install as advertised

Place the goat on the altar, and slaughter it with the dagger.

        May this goat feed you
        Sate your lust for blood
        Into it may your mischief fly
        Not my computer
        Make the software work
        For this is the only way

Then spit into the computer's ventilation slots.  This will complete
different circuits inside the computer, causing its motherboard and 
cards to function in ways that the engineers never intended, thereby 
making your system compatible with our libraries.

Reboot your computer.  The installation is now complete.

----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Systems Guides                                      bstaud at sysgu.com 
Bill Staudenheimer                                 Vox: 415-917-8170
PO Box 4130                                        Fax: 415-917-8172
Mountain View, CA 94040-0130                    http://www.sysgu.com



----- End Included Message -----






From ariel at watsun.cc.columbia.edu  Wed Sep 24 17:37:42 1997
From: ariel at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Ariel Glenn)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:37:42 +0800
Subject: oxley amendment
Message-ID: 



a fine statement which I would be proud to echo. 
however I heard (I've been calling every hour) from a staffer in 
Tauzin's office that the amendment was defeated after all! he didn't
have the numbers and I couldn't find out about the competing propossal,
but he was quite sure that oxley went down in flames. I wish I could
confirm this from some other source, but the news will be out there
one way or another tomorrow morning so we'll all know...

yes, I found it on cdt's home page, they must have just put this
up! the committee ditched the earlier amendment adding
extra export restrictions, but they did approve the white amendment
which toughens the criminal penalties for use of encryption to 
further a crime.

*whew* we actually won one! but there is a long way to go yet...


Ariel Glenn
ariel at columbia.edu






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Wed Sep 24 17:38:31 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:38:31 +0800
Subject: Soviet spies at NSA
Message-ID: <199709250025.TAA06307@manifold.algebra.com>



http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=341606&p_section_name=&p_art_type=11066&p_subcat=Russia&p_category=Europe

[look at the last paragraph]

Former Army Clerk Sentenced for Cold War
             Espionage

             AP
             24-SEP-97

             PHILADELPHIA (AP) A former Army clerk at the National
             Security Agency was sentenced to 18 years in prison
             Wednesday for selling secrets to the Soviet Union three
             decades ago.

             Robert S. Lipka, 51, pleaded guilty in May to conspiracy to
             commit espionage. He was arrested last year after his
             ex-wife betrayed him.

             "I put this to rest many years ago, and I never dreamed it
             would come out like this," a tearful Lipka told U.S.
             District Judge Charles R.  Weiner. "I owe an apology to a
             lot of people."

             Lipka was trained as an intelligence analyst and had top
             security clearance with the NSA at Fort Meade, Md., where
             he was responsible for distributing and destroying
             classified documents.

             Between 1965 and 1967, Lipka photographed documents with a
             camera provided by the Soviets and dropped the film off in
             a park for up to $1,000 a drop, prosecutors said. He
             allegedly got a total of $27,000 from the KGB.

             In the late 1960s, Lipka told his then-wife, Patricia, that
             he was selling NSA materials to the Soviets. The couple
             married in 1966 and divorced in 1974.

             In 1993, after Lipka's wife went to authorities, Lipka
             recounted the arrangement for an FBI agent posing as a
             Soviet spy.

             After his arrest, the coin collector and gambler from
             Millersville threatened to reveal government secrets on the
             Internet if his case were not dropped.

             The judge also fined Lipka $10,000.






From minow at apple.com  Wed Sep 24 17:57:32 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:57:32 +0800
Subject: bombs
In-Reply-To: <970924195003_-899596690@emout12.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 



JuanPyro at aol.com wrote, and I quote in total:

>im writing a screenplay and need very detailed instructions on how to make a
>bomb

I would recommend that you rent the movie "The Producers." They
describe in great detail how to make a bomb in the theatre (with one
tiny error that I'm sure you will be able to circumvent).

Best Regards.










From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 18:22:41 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:22:41 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 13:23 -0700 9/24/97, Lizard wrote:
>At 09:47 PM 9/24/97 +0200, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>They support the penalty enhancement for use of encryption
>>in futherance of a felony.
>
>I don't find this particularly offensive, on the grounds that if you're
>convicted of any given crime, the government can more-or-less drum up so
>many related charges they can put you away for 500 years ANYWAY, so what
>difference does it make?

Lizard's position is sadly incoherent. If he believes in civil liberties --
and I know he does -- then he should think twice. Just because the federal
government has broad powers doesn't mean we should give them more.

Under Lizard's reasoning, he should find a law outlawing "breathing air (or
speaking Spanish) in the commission of a crime" acceptable. Or at least not
"particularly offensive."

-Declan







From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Sep 24 18:25:56 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:25:56 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970925010403.008bf074@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Ariel Glenn for pointing to CDT's for quick posting
of  the SAFE vote against Oxley-Manton, for Markey-White:

   http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/






From lizard at dnai.com  Wed Sep 24 18:40:45 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:40:45 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970924132310.00b87100@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 06:32 PM 9/24/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 13:23 -0700 9/24/97, Lizard wrote:
>>At 09:47 PM 9/24/97 +0200, Peter Herngaard wrote:
>>>They support the penalty enhancement for use of encryption
>>>in futherance of a felony.
>>
>>I don't find this particularly offensive, on the grounds that if 
you're
>>convicted of any given crime, the government can more-or-less drum 
up so
>>many related charges they can put you away for 500 years ANYWAY, so 
what
>>difference does it make?
>
>Lizard's position is sadly incoherent. If he believes in civil 
liberties --
>and I know he does -- then he should think twice. Just because the 
federal
>government has broad powers doesn't mean we should give them more.
>
 Rather, my position is that the system is ALREADY hopelessly 
corrupt and imbalanced;altering the letter of the law to say '20 
years' as opposed to '10 years' FOR SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T BE A 
CRIME AT ALL is irrelevant. The government can just as easily create 
two trumped-up ten year charges as it can one 20 year charge;'law' 
and 'justice' have nothing to do with one another anymore.

The whole concept of criminilizing the use of crpytography is 
offensive;the exact specifics -- 10 years or 20 years -- are pretty 
much the same.

Though, on second thought, there is a serious issue with it -- if, as 
we hope, encryption becomes widespread, than anyone doing anything 
will be using it;including 'in the commission of a crime'. This could 
make petty misdemeanors into 20 year federal crimes, and THAT is 
something to worry about. Hm.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCm7HjKf8mIpTvjWEQL6ywCgrLu61z4DOjcIgboX8wJPZaKxHE4An2yH
QzcO/ZeobOWzOnhM5CxeULp4
=pwGM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 24 18:56:52 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:56:52 +0800
Subject: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
Message-ID: 



So I'm sitting here in the lobbyist warren of the Capitol
Grille on Pennsylvania Avenue getting sloshed on expensive
beer -- and sick on the clouds of cigar smoke from industry
representatives flush from their victory in the House
Commerce committee earlier this evening.

And they do have cause to celebrate. A week ago, the
outlook in Congress was dismal. The House Intelligence
committee had approved (during a closed hearing) the
first-ever domestic restrictions on what technologies
Americans can use to protect their privacy. The House
Commerce committee seemed certain to follow. Rep. Oxley,
who was pushing the proposal, told me last week he had the
votes sewn up.

The tide changed today when the Commerce committee
overwhelmingly defeated Oxley's amendment. In a 35-16 vote,
members rejected restrictions on manufacturing unapproved
encryption devices and instead approved a modified version
of Rep. Goodlatte's original Security and Freedom through
Encryption (SAFE) bill.

The vote came after a last-minute press by a diverse
coalition of industry groups, including some who had never
weighed in on crypto before, including the automobile
companies and the Baby Bells. (In fact, the Bells may have
been the deciding factor in defeating the measure.)

The version of SAFE the Commerce committee approved
includes: criminal penalties (doubled from the original)
for the use of encryption in a crime, a prohibition on
mandatory domestic key escrow, delinking certificate
authorities from key escrow requirements, a "NET" center to
coordinate law enforcement codebreaking, a classfied study
to be conducted by the Attorney General, a NIST study on
crypto, and liability limitations on firms providing key
recovery. It also includes SAFE's original export
relaxation on encryption products that are already
available overseas or are in the public domain.

Many of those changes were proposed by Reps. Markey and
White, who had their amendment approved 40-11. The amended
bill was approved out of the committee by a 44-6 vote.

(One lobbyist just leaned over, martini in hand, and asked
me, "Do you need a quote, Declan?" //sigh//)

Today's discussion before the committee was all about
compromise -- which, after all, shouldn't be surprising.
Washington politicians thrive on it. If politics is the art
of the possible, compromise is its lifeblood. But to the
chagrin of politicans, staffers, and bureaucrats alike, the
politics of encryption doesn't provide one. Either you use
backdoored crypto or you don't. Either you have unalloyed
privacy or you don't. There's no middle ground.

Of course it's one thing to compromise on tax bills or
spending measures. That's not only expected, it's
necessary. But it's another thing entirely to compromise on
a bill that deals with fundamental freedoms.  How many
newspapers is it acceptable for the government to review
and censor before publication? How many Americans can be
imprisoned without a public trial? Sometimes, including
now, Americans should stand on principle and reject that
any and all "compromises." A coalition of groups from the
American Civil Liberties Union to the Eagle Forum sent out
just that letter earlier today.

Those groups understand what high tech firms have been slow
to realize: Congress will not, and cannot, approve a bill
that benefits crypto-liberty. Right now there are no
domestic controls on encryption. After Congress passes a
bill, that will surely change. The crypto-in-a-crime
provisions are destined to stay in. When crypto becomes
omnipresent, Congress might just as well punish you for
speaking Spanish in the commission of a crime.

(By now the lobbyists are drunk. One just leaned over,
laughing excitedly, and yelled in my ear: "Cold fusion
still doesn't work!" Huh? Whatever. Seriously, folks, I do not
make this stuff up. Another fellow says the quote of the
day is: "The FBI tried to take the country hostage.")

Anyway, today firms saw their arguments used against them.
For years companies have testified before Congress that crypto
was readily available at the corner software store. One
Congressman recently even waved around a shrinkwrapped copy
of Lotus Notes as a prop. At last the techno-impaired
members of the House Commerce committee have realized that
strong crypto was available through a point-and-click
download (or for $19.95). But instead of allowing the
//overseas// distribution of encryption, they instead came
close to banning the //domestic// distribution.

By now even the more censorhappy members of Congress are
sick and tired of hearing about pedophiles and child
pornographers and molesters and such. Even the
druglords-wielding-crypto claims pales after a while -- at
least if you've heard it 17 times in the past few weeks. So
today Rep. Oxley whipped out his trump card: if you don't
vote for my amendment, you'll get blown up! "How about some
terrorist orgainztion acting with impunity because they
have the ability to communicate with impunity gets a hold
of a Russian nuclear device and threatens to blow up the
Capitol of the United States?"

In the end, Oxley's amendment didn't carry the day. It was of
course almost entirely the successful lobbying -- and if
firms can't win in the //Commerce// committee, where can they
win? -- but to their credit, some Congressmen actually talked
about the Constitutional issues involved. "This is about our
liberty and how far we will go in protecting our liberties,"
said Rep. Rogan, a former prosecutor and judge who spoke
against Oxley.

The future, however, is uncertain. The bill now goes to the
House Rules committee, whose chairman said today in a
strongly-worded letter that he'd only allow a bill to go to
the floor if it included Oxley's amendment. Look for a hell
of a lot of behind-the-scenes lobbying on this now...

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Wed Sep 24 18:57:58 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:57:58 +0800
Subject: NAMBLA
In-Reply-To: <970923211837_-994610816@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 



Boat1688 at aol.com writes:
>
> How do I get some of these pics of boys in swimsuits?

Better yet, ask Prof. Crispin about his collection of pics of little boys
WITHOUT swimsuits.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Sep 24 19:25:43 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:25:43 +0800
Subject: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional     rights
In-Reply-To: <342abc87.8873306@128.2.84.191>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924184150.0077a5fc@popd.netcruiser>

In response to one of my previous posts, at 07:21 AM 9/24/97 GMT,
phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>Would people want to use eudora (their main email program) as a remailer,
>and have to wait for it to process all those messages each time they read
>their mail?  Is there a demand for users with dial-up accounts to be
>remailers?
>
>(I'm not being critical, I'm just asking.  I never thought about using
>eudora as a remailer server)

Send me cash / check / money order with your PGP key fingerprint attached,
and I will allow you to send up to 100KB anonymously per day for $10 /
month. Or something like that. (Once the plugin is installed on my machine,
of course.) The plugin should  have tools for maintaining the list of
authorized users, with the ability to delete unwanted to-be-remailed
messages directly off the POP server without downloading them.

>>The remailer plugin should be able to:
>>1. Scan all available sources of remailer availability / reliability.
>>2. Allow the user to select a pool of trusted remailers.
>>3. Allow the user to select the number of remailers in the chain.
>>4. Randomly select remailers from the pool.
>>5. Encrypt / add headers to the outgoing message to match the selected
>>remailers.
>
>Good Idea.  Are people comfortable with not choosing the exact order of the
>remailers used?

You should be able to override the default choice, but having the computer
doing the grunt work will nake using the remailing feature more convenient.

>>>Stenography Plugin for mail/news readers.  It's our one (and possibly only)
>>>defense against GAK.  You can't decrypt what you can't see.  (watch for
>>>Stenography to be classified as encryption and be similarly restricted.)
>>
>
>>Look for AOL and other ISP's to automatically run a "noise reduction"
>>filter (as in CoolEdit 96) on .wav / .jpg files if GAK becomes mandatory.
>>CoolEdit's noise reduction filter is great for removing tape hiss and other
>>constant background noise from sound files, (it can make a cheap tape deck
>>sound like a cheap CD player) but it would obviously destroy any stegoed
>>data. The noise reduction algorithm is very processor intensive--it takes
>>my 586/133 about an hour to NR a 3 minute stereo 44 KHz recording, but I'm
>>sure you could set up a "light" version of the filter that would destroy
>>stego data without taking as long.
>>
>
>And how does one tell the difference between a JPEG image and a executable
>program after they're uuencoded (assuming one does not follow MIME
>conventions)?  Will we be required by law to identify, in clear plaintext,
>the nature and contents of all our messages?

What is uuencoded can be trivially uudecoded to determine the content type
by direct examination of the data. (uuencoding != encryption) And if all
.wav files are mandatorily "noise filtered" by your friendly ISP, then the
answer would probably be yes.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 24 19:27:14 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:27:14 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 6:15 PM -0700 9/24/97, Lizard wrote:

>Though, on second thought, there is a serious issue with it -- if, as
>we hope, encryption becomes widespread, than anyone doing anything
>will be using it;including 'in the commission of a crime'. This could
>make petty misdemeanors into 20 year federal crimes, and THAT is
>something to worry about. Hm.

I think you're beginning to see what we have been saying for many months....

I think it was Bill Stewart who recently described all the various minor
crimes which will likely soon involve crypto, things like calling for a
hooker on a phone that has crypto in it, using a Metricom Ricochet wireless
system to send banned words to a foreigner, and so on. All kinds of minor
crimes suddenly have 10- and 20-year sentences attached.

(Do I think it likely that someone ordering the hooker du jour with his
cellphone will face such sentences? Probably not. They're small fry. But
political persons, like Jim Bell, like others, will very likely see these
10- and 20-year sentences--which will go into the "sentencing guidelines"
(rules) and hence be almost unavoidable--and this will help them to come to
really and truly _love_ Big Brother!)

The good news today is that if Salomon keeps to his word, the Security and
Fascism Through Escrow Act is dead, dead, dead.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From pooh at efga.org  Wed Sep 24 19:48:00 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:48:00 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970924223100.03601a28@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 06:15 PM 9/24/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>Though, on second thought, there is a serious issue with it -- if, as 
>we hope, encryption becomes widespread, than anyone doing anything 
>will be using it;including 'in the commission of a crime'. This could 
>make petty misdemeanors into 20 year federal crimes, and THAT is 
>something to worry about. Hm.

While this provision (that criminalized the use of crypto in a crime) of
the original SAFE bill was a "bad thing" I personally thought that much of
the rest of the bill was ok and had some demented hope that this bad spot
could be fixed next year.  No one needs to say "I told you so."  Things
obviously have gone downhill.

The state of Georgia has a similar provision.  There is a law that makes it
a crime to use a "telecommunications facility".  As I recall, it is a
felony and applies to drug charges.  The Georgia courts routinely give
people an extra five years for selling drugs through a phone call and for
what I suspect was the original intent of the law, a beeper.

In Georgia the presence of a beeper is synonymous with drug sales.  At
least with law enforcement agencies.  Probationers and parolees are not
allowed to "report" to their supervising agent if they are wearing a
beeper.  For police, the presence of a beeper on a person is reason to
suspect drugs.

I'm sure that we have the possibility of crypto becoming the same thing.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 24 20:38:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:38:22 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:31 PM -0700 9/24/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>In Georgia the presence of a beeper is synonymous with drug sales.  At
>least with law enforcement agencies.  Probationers and parolees are not

In Silicon Valley, the presence of a beeper is synomynous with one being a
technician or someone similar.  To keep the furnaces running, or whatever.
(Real Executives (TM), of course do not carry beepers.)

It appears we live on different planets. Further evidence that not only
should we allow Georgia secede, we should kick them out.

All the more reason for the Bill of Rights to be scrupulously adhered to.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From hrast at flash.net  Wed Sep 24 20:51:51 1997
From: hrast at flash.net (Michael Brock)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:51:51 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <01BCC93A.D0869BA0@dasc12-105.flash.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
constituents want....


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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 24 21:12:33 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:12:33 +0800
Subject: Ethics in the Free Market
Message-ID: 



Three laws of business: Reputation, Reputation, and Reputation...

:-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:53:21 -0400
Subject: Ethics in the Free Market
From: "CIPE-Announce" 
To: CIPE-Announce at mail.cipe.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: CIPE-Announce at mail.cipe.org
Precedence: Bulk


===================================================================
Summary of Mr. Kanaga's Speech in Bucharest - May 1997
"Ethical Conduct is The Basic Need of a Free Market Economy"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

For all of those countries emerging from a period of totalitarian control
of business, a valuable part of the lesson on the move to free market
economies is the discovery that "free markets" do not mean that "freedom
for anything goes."

Governments can promote market reform, privatize government-controlled
business, and institute positive private investment regulations,  but
those steps alone are insufficient to achieve sustained growth and spur
inflow of foreign private investment.

The keys in my opinion are to establish high ethical standards of conduct
for business and to create an atmosphere of trust and confidence among all
members of the business community.

Those two factors have been the foundation for success in those areas of
the world that I have observed in over forty years of experience in the
private sector of the business community.

History proves this point.  The countries with the highest ethical
standards have attracted the most investment, while those with the lowest
standards and with widespread corruption have received the least.

In the latter environment, all members of society are losers.  Business
loses as the public perceives profits as ill-gotten gain, while lack of
trust between business executives creates suspicion in the simplest
transaction.  Government and the democratic process also lose as the
public's faith in institutions and the rule of law is further eroded every
time the disclosure of bribe or other scandal erupts.  Most importantly,
ordinary people lose as the promise of democracy and the wealth that
initiative could create fail to materialize.

Strong ethics are essential to businesses.  The entire free-market system
is built on trust.  Every time a contract is signed or a consumer
purchases a product, an extension of good faith is made.  If a
businessman breaks his word or knowingly sells a faulty product or
service, that extension of trust is broken.  In looking back on my years
in business, my days were filled with verbal assurances, rarely written
contracts, that individuals would do what he and she they would do.  And
there was trust that it would be so.  Human beings do fail in this
process but the cost effectiveness of doing business this way is clear.

The US stock market provides a good example of the critical role that
trust plays.  It is by far the largest stock market in the world.  Why?
It achieved this stature because investors put their money at the
disposal of distant managers with the confidence that they can be
trusted and that they will wisely invest the funds entrusted to them.
To be sure, there have been situations where that confidence was
misplace; such failures resulted in a strong push to develop corporate
codes of conduct.  But those failures have been minor blips in the total
picture or people would not continue to invest in that stock market.

Corporate codes of conduct, however, will only be worth the paper on
which they are written if the leadership ignores them.  If the leaders of
the business community don't live up to the twin principles of honesty
and integrity, those that work with those individuals will not.

This is an essential ingredient within a single company.  In order to make
its code of conduct an effective tool, the company's leadership has to
live up to it.  If by his or her own demeanor the chief executive
communicates that the code is unimportant, everyone in the organization
will think the same.  By contrast, the whole atmosphere in an organization
changes overnight when management makes it clear that it expects strict
adherence to its code of conduct.

Another important point to keep in mind is that codes of conduct that work
in one country will not necessarily work in another.  Reforming
governments must set their own standards in accordance with their
country's business practices, rules and regulations.

However, in my view, there is a golden opportunity in the countries of
Eastern and Central Europe to achieve strong progress if they stand tall,
and deal honorably with one another and trust one another.  It is
encouraging that reforming governments, such as we heard earlier in this
meeting from Romania's leadership, are recognizing this critical factor.
Earlier this year, its president and prime minister affirmed on the public
record that eliminating government corruption and setting high standards
of conduct are key priorities.

If there isn't a fundamental trust between people, they will try to
substitute excessive documentation for that lack of trust.  It has been
my experience here in Eastern Europe and in Russia and the Ukraine that
in the 1980s and before people assembled massive files on the simplest
matters to protect themselves.  The result was not only a delay in
execution of transactions but a terrible waste of time and money.

The government cannot legislate integrity and honesty.  The leadership in
the business community, entrepreneurs and corporate managers alike, must
demonstrate those qualities every day to make them the business norm.
Each individual business executive-and the organization to which he or she
belongs - must lead by example.  And government must clearly indicate that
it will not tolerate corruption within its own ranks or within the
business community.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
William S. Kanaga is the Chairman of the Center for International Private
Enterprise and former Chairman of Arthur Young.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABOUT THE CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL PRIVATE ENTERPRISE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE) was established in
1983 as an affiliate of the US Chamber of Commerce in Washington, DC. Its
mission is to promote private enterprise and market-oriented economic
reform around the globe by matching funds with a variety of local
institutions in emerging democracies, including think tanks, business
associations, educational institutions, and media training programs -- the
building blocks of democratic society.  Over 400 projects in more than 70
countries have been sponsored by CIPE since its inception.  CIPE is
supported by the National Endowment for Democracy, the US Agency for
International Development and private sources.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From brianbr at together.net  Wed Sep 24 21:45:04 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:45:04 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <199709250439.AAA12548@mx01.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/24/97 11:40 PM, Michael Brock (hrast at flash.net)  passed this
wisdom:

>I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
>up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
>coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
>make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
>find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
>of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
>constituents want....


  ... since when did the will of the constituency ever have more than
a minor influnce on a congress-critter???

 ..... hmmmmm ... can you spell Jesse Helms ????

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Charset: noconv

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=OXqF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
   For PGP Keys  

  "Everyone who lives dies; but not everyone who dies has lived"
    -- back of a 'No Fear' t-shirt







From azur at netcom.com  Wed Sep 24 22:01:37 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:01:37 +0800
Subject: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The future, however, is uncertain. The bill now goes to the
>House Rules committee, whose chairman said today in a
>strongly-worded letter that he'd only allow a bill to go to
>the floor if it included Oxley's amendment. Look for a hell
>of a lot of behind-the-scenes lobbying on this now...

Might this not now be used to our advantage.  If partisans from our side
can bait the stubborn committee members into quashing the bill, we've won
an even greater victory...no new crypto bill.

--Steve







From azur at netcom.com  Wed Sep 24 22:04:26 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:04:26 +0800
Subject: You Used MY Name?!?!?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 6:02 PM +0000 9/24/97, bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>To: senator at feinstein.senate.gov
>From: HugeCajones Remailer
>You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
>threat because it can have really bad results.

Threats are dangerous and illogical...







From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Sep 24 22:21:19 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:21:19 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <01BCC93A.D0869BA0@dasc12-105.flash.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
> constituents want....

What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
the Oxley ammendment.

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 24 22:28:35 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:28:35 +0800
Subject: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 6:37 PM -0700 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>least if you've heard it 17 times in the past few weeks. So
>today Rep. Oxley whipped out his trump card: if you don't
>vote for my amendment, you'll get blown up! "How about some
>terrorist orgainztion acting with impunity because they
>have the ability to communicate with impunity gets a hold
>of a Russian nuclear device and threatens to blow up the
>Capitol of the United States?"

Sounds to me like Oxley is presaging the Reichstag Fire.

And since his work buddies in Covert Ops are probably the ones supplying
the NDTs from Kazikstan to the freedom fighters, his foreshadowing may be
significant.

A good time to get out of Dodge.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From kelsey at plnet.net  Wed Sep 24 22:55:01 1997
From: kelsey at plnet.net (John Kelsey)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:55:01 +0800
Subject: news story in the SD Daily Transcript
Message-ID: <199709250549.AAA00069@email.plnet.net>



Some of you might find an article in the San Diego Daily Transcript (I
think
it will appear tomorrow in the print version; it's up now at their website)
interesting.
It's an article about today's moderately good news from Congress, and I'm
quoted extensively in it.  (The reporter is an old friend of mine, and he
knows
what I do for a living, so he called me for a quote.)   It's currently at

http://www.sddt.com/files/library/97headlines/09_97/DN97_09_24/DN97_09_24_tb
c.html

and I *think* they will keep it up for a while.  

   --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey at counterpane.com
 PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36






From tien at well.com  Wed Sep 24 23:01:38 1997
From: tien at well.com (Lee Tien)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:01:38 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: 



>The future, however, is uncertain. The bill now goes to the
>House Rules committee, whose chairman said today in a
>strongly-worded letter that he'd only allow a bill to go to
>the floor if it included Oxley's amendment. Look for a hell
>of a lot of behind-the-scenes lobbying on this now...
>
>-Declan

What's the path?  Given the multiple committees, is there a prescribed
sequence or do they work in parallel?

What about the Senate bills?  Suppose Solomon allows SAFE to go to the
floor.  Does SAFE need to be reconciled somehow with any Senate bill?
Could Oxley's amendment could be made on the floor, with little or no
warning?  In some sort of conference committee?

I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.

Lee







From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Sep 24 23:51:38 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:51:38 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
> FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
> year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.

Such a diagram would be interesing to have. Not everybody watched "How a
bill becomes law". :-) And there is sigificant interest in this issue from
our international readers that are not as familiar with the political
process in the US as perhaps some of us US citizens are.


 -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From aptbnl at dev.null  Thu Sep 25 00:17:11 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:17:11 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 20 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342A0A5F.7101@dev.null>

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From aptbnl at dev.null  Thu Sep 25 00:31:12 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:31:12 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 20 / TEXT
Message-ID: <342A0A84.53E7@dev.null>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * A Billionaire To Be Named Later

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       A Billionaire To Be Named Later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Did you notice the way 'Mojave' was misspelled?" the Shadow asked the Rich
Man.

Bad BillyG nodded slowly, looked up at the Shadow and said, "I also noticed
that he used the 'replay' remailer and spoke of 'deja vu.'"

"Indio?" the Shadow asked Bad BillyG, not having to wait for his
confirmation to know that the anonymous writer was referring to the
Wackenhut/Cabazon weapons fencing operation.

"I've got someone checking the physical site as we speak," BillyG told the
Shadow, "but I think it's obvious that the references to Lefty and the
tassel-haired young woman firing a shotgun with one hand means that these
people recreated an event that happened over a decade and a half ago, only�"

Bad BillyG paused to swallow, "�only this time, the targets are us, not
them."

The Shadow and his earthly compatriot turned their attention to the
anonymous post, once again, confirming what they already knew, and scanning
for more details of the writers veiled message, therein.

Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
To: cypherpunks at toad.com

[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97

WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE? - sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
"a billionaire to be named later."

A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"
after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right
hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and what
is obscenity."

"We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate
logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues
surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,
with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action by
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife
spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone
here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade
rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small
propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the last
and most meaningful statement of the day.

After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between
them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night
phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of the
participants in the activities.

I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally
mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent
strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup
trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity, knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately did,
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site, which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first
arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja vu, as if I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly
transpired.

Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later put down the 'Not-News Gorilla NutWork
Rocket-Launched' post and scanned portions of the INSLAW/Octopus report from
NaziWorld, once again.

The INSLAW Octopus
Software piracy, conspiracy, cover-up, stonewalling, covert action: Just
another decade at the Department of Justice
By Richard L. Fricker
�
But prior to his arrest in 1991, Riconosciuto provided the Hamiltons with an
affidavit that once again brought Brian into the Inslaw picture. "I engaged
in some software development and modification work in 1983 and 1984 on
proprietary PROMIS computer software product," he stated. "The copy of
PROMIS on which I worked came from the US Department of Justice. Earl W.
Brian made it available to me through Wackenhut (a security company with
close FBI and CIA connections) after acquiring it from Peter Videnieks, who
was then a Department of Justice contracting official with the
responsibility for PROMIS software. I performed the modifications to PROMIS
in Indio, Calif.; Silver Springs, Md.; and Miami, Fla."

The modifications included a telecommunications "trap door" that would let
the US Government eavesdrop on any other organization using the pirated
software, Riconosciuto said.

�

Although Brian denies any involvement with Inslaw or Riconosciuto, the House
Judiciary Committee received a report from a special task force of the
Riverside County, Calif., Sheriff's Office and District Attorney, stating
that on the evening of Sept. 10, 1981, arms dealers, buyers and various
intelligence operatives gathered at the Cabazon Indian Reservation near
Indio, Calif., for a demonstration of night warfare weapons. The
demonstration was orchestrated jointly by Wackenhut and the Cabazon Indian
tribe. (Many published reports allege that the Wackenhut/Cabazon joint
venture served as a weapons fencing operation for Oliver North's Iran-
Contra dealings.)

Bad BillyG involved in that mess?
A Player To Be Named Later shook his head negatively, to himself. It seemed
unlikely, but it would explain a few things which had been troubling him,
lately. And it would mean that the anonymous poster knew enough intimate
details of an event that had been shrouded in deep secrecy to pose a threat
to all those connected with the Indio affair.
It would also explain the apparently strange ending to a major play by the
news and computer industry heavyweights calling themselves the 'Internet
Content Coalition' that the anonymous post seemed to be threatening.

For starters, Microsoft made an immediate about-face, within hours of the
anonymous post, on their plans to include technology supporting the Internet
Content Coalition's aims in their next version of Internet Explorer.

>From - Wed Aug 06 19:31:05 1997
From: nobody at neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely sometime
next year."

>Anonymous wrote:
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
> > burgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:
> > "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassel-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and off."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."

There wasn't much doubt that 'Nobody' was pointing out to one and all that
the Internet Content Coalition was under siege, and that the opening salvo
by 'Anonymous' had brought the largest corporation in history to its knees,
in surrender.
A bold claim, but would this declaration of war in the battle of the giants
to seize control of the official reigns of news and information on the
InterNet be backed up in the end, by across the board results?

A Player To Be Named Later pored over a FreeAmerica report on the
resurrection of the Inslaw ghosts in the mid-1990's.

Federal Corruption
INSLAW

Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995

Congressman Jack Brooks of Texas has opened a new investigation into the
INSLAW case. Brooks is investigating allegations that Justice Department
officials, including Meese, conspired to force INSLAW into bankruptcy in
order to deliver the firm's software to a rival company. The rival firm,
according to court records and law enforcement officials, was headed by Earl
W. Brian, a former Cabinet officer under then California Governor Ronald
Reagan and a longtime friend of several high-ranking Republican officials.

[Earl W. Brian! Who had seized control of United Press International (UPI)
in a deal every bit as shady as the Inslaw affair�]

On March 21, 1992, [Michael] Riconoscuito stated in an affidavit to the
Court and Congress, and before he was arrested, the following:

   * During the 1980s he served as the Director of Research for a joint
     venture between the Wackenhut Corporation of Coral Gables, Florida, and
     the Cabazon Band of Indians of Indio, California. The joint venture was
     located on the Cabazon reservation.

[Near the Salton Sea, a long-time haunt of the Author, who brought a strange
variety of computer gurus to the area, purportedly for Corvina fishing, but
what was the real story about their travels there?]

   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture sought to develop and/or
     manufacture certain materials that are used in military and national
     security operations, including night vision goggles, machine guns,
     fuel- air explosives, and biological and chemical warfare weapons.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture was intended to support the needs
     of a number of FOREIGN governments and forces, including forces and
     governments in Central America and the Middle East. The Contras in
     Nicaragua represented one of the most important priorities for the
     joint venture.
   * The Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture maintained close liaison with
     'certain elements' of the United States Government, including
     representatives of intelligence, military and law enforcement agencies.
   * Among the frequent visitors to the Wackenhut-Cabazon joint venture were
     Peter Videnieks of the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington, D.C.,
     and a close associate of Videnieks by the name of Earl W. Brian. Brian
     is a private businessman who lives in Maryland and who has maintained
     close business ties with the U.S. intelligence community for many
     years.
   * The purpose of the PROMIS software modification that I made in 1983 and
     1984 was to support a plan for the implementation of PROMIS in law
     enforcement and intelligence agencies worldwide. Earl W. Brian was
     spearheading the plan for this worldwide use of the PROMIS computer
     software.
   * Some of the modifications that I made were specifically designed to
     facilitate the implementation of PROMIS within two agencies of the
     Government of Canada: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and the
     Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS). Earl W. Brian would
     check with me from time to time to make certain that the work would be
     completed in time to satisfy the schedule for the RCMP and CSIS
     implementations of PROMIS.

[The RCMP and CSIS�the same entities that the Author had shared a Russian
language class with in Regina, Saskatchewan, just before the Moscow
Olympics. Who had he encountered in that group who would later be
instrumental in acquiring the PROMIS software for the Canadians?]

   * The propriety version of PROMIS, as modified by me, was, in fact
     implemented in both the RCMP and the CSIS in Canada. It was my
     understanding that Earl W. Brian had sold this version of PROMIS to the
     Government of Canada.

A Player To Be Named Later suddenly remembered the email to the CypherPunks
mailing list and the corporate headquarters of the Internet Content
Coalition that had been forwarded from the LMBoyd Website, which was known
to be a forum for the Circle of Eunuchs to send veiled messages to set the
stage for their more pointed attacks on the Dark Forces.
It was an email that was sent out when the dark specter of the Internet
Content Coalition first began to flex their muscles.

>From - Fri Jul 25 19:38:14 1997
Subject: Sampler: July 25
To: multiple recipients of 
======================================================
The serial killer does in one person at a time in
intervals. The mass killer murders however many in a
single mad rampage. The mass killer is usually suicidal.
The serial killer isn't.
�
Q. Does any animal deliberately stalk human beings for
food?
A. None but the polar bear. At least, such is the claim
of the experts.
======================================================
LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

"Of course!"

A Player To Be Named Later slapped his forehead, amazed that he had not seen
the connection sooner between the 'mass murderer, serial killer stalking
humans from the North' email, the Not-News threat singling out "a
billionaire to be named later," and the email sent to the Internet Content
Coalition players just before they held the meeting where they effectively
folded their hand in their attempt to take over control over defining what
was 'official' news on the InterNet, and what was not.

He reread, once again, the anonymous post sent just hours before the
Internet Content Coalition's grand agenda bit the dust:

"In July, Anson Ng, a reporter for the Financial Times of London
was shot and KILLED in Guatemala. He had reportedly been trying
to interview an American there named Jimmy Hughes, a one-time
director of security for the Cabazon Indian Reservation secret projects.
"In April, a Philadelphia attorney named Dennis Eisman was found
DEAD, killed by a single bullet in his chest. According to a former
federal official who worked with Eisman, the attorney was found dead
in the parking lot where he had been due to meet with a woman who
had crucial evidence to share substantiating Riconosciuto's claims.
"Both Eisman's and Ng's deaths were declared 'suicides' by
authorities.
"Fred Alvarez, a Cabazon tribal leader who was in vocal opposition
to the developments on the reservation, was found SHOT TO DEATH
WITH TWO FRIENDS in 1981. Their murder remains unsolved.

At last, the whole bizarre, implausible scenario finally came together in A
Player To Be Named Later's mind.

The Author's presence near the belly of the beast in Indio had not been a
mere coincidence. When the Internet Content Coalition made their move, the
Circle of Eunuchs already had the information they needed to connect several
of the players in the proposed news cartel with the trail of deaths
surrounding both those involved in the INSLAW debacle and the reporters
closing in on the real story involved.
And they had made it more than plain that some of those involved in the
Wackenhut-Cabazon arms deals were now playing for the opposition�and that
bullets don't discriminate between the rich and the poor.

A Player To Be Named Later was still mystified as to how the Magic Circle
had been able to pull off such a bold, in-your-face maneuver on some of the
Titans of the news and computer industries.
In the early days, after the dissemination of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
had begun in 1989, the Circle of Eunuchs had come under fierce attack from a
variety of sources from within the secret government hunting them.
Mysterious deaths, established careers going up in flames, overnight. The
Magic Circle had quickly disappeared far into the underground of computer
society.
Then, the Circle had begun to show their hand, more and more, now reaching
the point where they could apparently do battle with the heavyweights
working behind the scenes with Gomez and the Dark Allies. But A Player To Be
Named Later hadn't seen any indication that the Circle of Eunuchs had
managed to gain possession of a hole-card that could account for�unless�

"Casolaro!" A Player To Be Named Later whispered, as if speaking the name
aloud might bring down fire from the heavens. Quickly, he did a disk search
for a vaguely remembered article from Conspiracy Nation�

Forwarded:
>From the Patriot Archives ftp site at: ftp://tezcat.com/patriot

                      Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 3 Num.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          ("Quid coniuratio est?")

THE OCTOPUS
===========
By Karen Bixman
(For The People *News Reporter*, 11/14/94)
�
On the morning of August 11, 1991, Danny Casolaro was found dead
in the bathroom of his hotel room at the Sheraton Hotel in
Martinsburg, West Virginia. His wrists had been slashed ten
times; his briefcase and notes were missing. The authorities
labeled the death a suicide, and before Casolaro's family had
been contacted, the body was embalmed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail
address, send a message in the form "subscribe conspire My Name"
to listproc at prairienet.org -- To cancel, send a message in the
form "unsubscribe conspire" to listproc at prairienet.org but with
absolutely nothing in the subject line of the message.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Damn! He had nailed it!

Karen Bixman's article had confirmed everything that A Player To Be Named
Later had increasingly suspected as his mind pored over the mountain of
information which had seemed so tentatively, but treacherously, related.
Bixman had laid down an utterly astounding, twisted trail of closely
connected, mysterious deaths and blatant murders surrounding the INSLAW and
Iran-Contra misdeeds that completed the connections between the past and
current players in the battle for control of world supremacy in computer
information and communications.

What's more, the timing of the disappearance of Danny Casolaro's extensive
notes on the winding serpent of evil surrounding these affairs coincided
with the Magic Circle's unmistakable reentry into manifest participation in
the battle against the Evil One and the Dark Forces under his command.

The Coupe de Gras, however, was the source of the Conspiracy Nation
newsletter.
Prairienet.org! From whence sprang the apparently unrelated Bureau42 clique
who had seized the opportunity to host 'The True Story of the InterNet'
transcripts, despite the troubled and bloody history of those who had done
so in the past.
Bianca had mentioned to Mike Denney, at Basis Inc., that she had been
prepared to hack the Bureau42 servers when they came under attack upon
placing 'Part II' and 'Part III' on their system, but that they had managed
to clear up the problems that developed on their own, and had done so in a
surprisingly short period of time.

Only one thing was still bothering A Player To Be Named Later.
Microsoft had been the first member of the Internet Content Coalition to
publicly fold their hand in the battle to control news and information
ratings across the InterNet, but Gates seemed, on the surface, to be less
visibly connected to the extremely messy past misconduct of the others, and
thus seemed to have the least to lose if the shit hit the fan.
Gate's quick concession to the veiled threats had definitely been the
catalyst in causing the hasty retreat of the other members of the news
cartel that had seemed to be on the drawing board for quite some time in the
plans of Gomez and the Dark Allies�but why?

Bill Gates had not become the richest and most overtly powerful individual
on the face of the earth by fighting against the grand designs of the Evil
One, but he seemed to be playing his cards close to his chest, in a manner
that suggested that he had an agenda of his own that might not run exactly
parallel to that of the Dark Forces.

What was BillyG's game?
A Player To Be Named Later had been involved in the grand battle taking
place behind the scenes of everyday reality for long enough to know that it
was all done with mirrors.

"And each man, in his time, plays many parts." he said, perplexed for the
moment.

"To Shakespeare!" A Player To Be Named Later said, lifting his glass in
toast. "A member of the Magic Circle, if there ever was one."
"If there ever was one�" he repeated, smiling at his unintentional inside
joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Shadow was watching Bad BillyG closely, for any sign of subterfuge in
his inner demeanor.
"You're certain about Blanc Weber?" he asked, once again.

"Well, I could be wrong, but we've investigated her thoroughly, and every
indication is that all that nonsense about her development of the HydroCube
is just that-nonsense."

BillyG shrugged his shoulders, apparently unconcerned with what he regarded
as a small, internal company matter.
"I could have her isolated, but I don't really see much point. If she is
hiding something, then it's probably better not to let her know how closely
she is being monitored. Perhaps you should put some of the Dark Allies on
her tail for a while, in case there is something that my people have
missed."

"No, I don't think that will be necessary." the Shadow replied, casually.
He had instructed his men to monitor Blanc Weber's movements and activities
months ago, as well as those of the spooks Bad BillyG had assigned to watch
her. His own spooks had likewise turned up nothing positive, but he had
pressed the matter with Gates in order to judge his reaction just the same.

"Well, her digital implant went according to plan," BillyG added, "so we
will be able to yank her chain on a moment's notice, if it becomes necessary
to do so, in the future."

The "billionaire to be named later" sat back and allowed himself to indulge
in the luxury of looking forward to the moment when A Player To Be Named
Later would find out much, much more than he really wanted to know about Bad
BillyG's plans for the tattered remnants of the Magic Circle who were
attempting to interfere with his own vision of the direction the future of
the InterNet should take at this nadir point in time, when the battle for
control of virtual reality was about to explode into every single facet of
human life
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bubba Rom Dos thought about the forefather of his technical namesake, who
had so far managed to walk with the Evil One as far as the bridge in his
rise to riches, fame and power a hundred years in the past.
The Cowboy, Priscilla, Alexis, Jonathan, and d'Shauneaux were likewise
joined with him in contemplation of this paradoxical figure from the past
whose role in the great battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of
Darkness had remained an enigma throughout the history and legends of the
Circle of Eunuchs.

Friend or foe, there was no denying that Billy the Kid was going to play a
major role in the direction that the thundering train of history was about
to take as it approached the crossroads of destiny on its way to an
ElectroMagnetic Future where freedom would hinge on the free flow of Taoist
bytes routing around the enslaving chains of Fascist bits that Gomez and the
Dark Allies had been carefully laying in place since the dawn of the
Computer Era.

Bubba Rom Dos, sage and savant, deviant and derelict, raised a glass of
"Bubba's Special Reserve" in toast, proclaiming as the tattered remnants of
the Magic Circle joined him in his libations, "To Billy the Kid�or Bad
BillyG�to the things that he did�or to what he may be�"

The Trei Transponder began softly humming in the background, as if trying to
tell the small assembly something very, very important for them to know.
Then it fell silent�

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger "
"That's not a government backdoor . It's a hacker's backdoor
."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 25 02:03:01 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:03:01 +0800
Subject: The CipherSaber Manifesto
Message-ID: <199709250042.BAA08154@notatla.demon.co.uk>



reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold Reinhold) wrote:

> CipherSaber-1 (CS1) uses Ron Rivest's RC4 algorithm as published in
> the second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography. ....

> CipherSaber-1 is a symmetric-key file encryption system. Messaging
> takes place by attaching binary files to e-mail. Because CipherSaber
> uses a stream cipher, an initialization vector must be used to prevent
> the same cipher key from being used twice. In encrypted CipherSaber-1
> files, a ten byte initialization vector precedes the coded data. For
> decryption, the initialization vector is read from the file and
> appended to the user key before the key setup step.  ......

Why not _prepend_ the IV to the key ?  As described here any
paranoics who use keys > 255 chars won't get the IV in place, and
will lose out.  I think I'd also force 4 bytes of the IV to be the
current time, as a defence against the (P?)RNG getting me a repeated IV
eventually.

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 02:50:26 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:50:26 +0800
Subject: Rants from A Player To Be Named Later
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925021811.006ff818@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 03:31 PM 09/24/1997 -0600, A Player To Be Named Later wrote:
>> Law enforcement arguments about pedophiles generally trump 
>> discussions of privacy rights.

Arguments about National Security generally trump both;
if you can spin the discussion right, remember that
widespread strong encryption protects National Security
and helps protect YOUR KIDS' privacy from those EVILDOERS out there.

And by the way, you'd really hope the cryptographically-protected
arming circuits for nuclear weapons don't have their keys escrowed....

>  Let me get this straight...
>  These dweebs are capable of finding a single joint in a vehicle
>travelling amoung thousands of others on the freeway, but they are
>incapable of finding a ton of cocaine in an airport with less than
>a hundred planes in it?

Sure, and that's why import laws won't stop crypto;
if you can smuggle Heavy Weapons into the US by packing them in dope,
you can smuggle in crypto floppies wrapped in darn near anything...

>  Why are the LEA's salaries not tied directly to the price of drugs
>on the street? Because, with the price of heroin at a record low for
>the decade, then these thieving fucks would be making less than the
>minimum wage!

Some countries simplify the mechanism and pay the cops directly in dope....


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 02:51:47 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:51:47 +0800
Subject: [cpe:547] Re: Congress & Crypto: "No compromise" coalition letter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925021622.006ff818@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 02:36 PM 09/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>But we all know that the next iteration will ban use.
>"Use a random number, go to jail." (I think this was from E. Hughes.)

That one's already beginning - Senator Kyl of Arizona, who's no friend of
crypto,
is also pushing laws against Internet gambling -
"Send a random number on the net, go to jail"...
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From aptbnl at dev.null  Thu Sep 25 02:54:23 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:54:23 +0800
Subject: Pissing on the Parade / Re: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <342A32AC.2F12@dev.null>



Lucky Green, travelling faster than the speed of light and sending
his post the the cypherpunks list hours *after* my reply to it,
wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> >
> > I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
> > FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
> > year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.

  "Can you say Plan B, Plan CC and Plan DC? Sure you can..."

  Plan B  - Bomb
  Plan CC - Beyond the Return to the Valley of the Planet of ClipperChip
            "Coming soon to a computer chip manufacturer near you!"
                    (Can you say Intel? Sure you can...)
  Plan DC - Nuke DC [<--  Cult of OnePunk counter-plan]
   
> Such a diagram would be interesing to have. Not everybody watched "How a
> bill becomes law". :-) And there is sigificant interest in this issue from
> our international readers that are not as familiar with the political
> process in the US as perhaps some of us US citizens are.

  "Do you feel punk, Lucky? Well...do you?"
      Clit Westwood, in 'Megaton Force'

I presume that those toasting the 'great victory' are doing so with 
leftover champagne that went stale when they didn't have time to
drink the whole bottle before the stay of the Bernstein ruling cut
short *that* grand little celebration.

I hate to 'poop the party' boys and girls, but the Big Boys are playing
for *all* the marbles, in case no one has noticed.
Anyone who is still under the impression that the self-proclaimed 'good
guys' are going to be 'fighting fair' had better quit sucking on their
thumb and stick it up their ass, where it might provide a bit more
protection during future events.

  "You don't have to be a cypherpunk to know which way Gilmore is
blowing."
       Dr. Dimitri Dylan, KOTM

APlayerToBeNamedLater
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'll trade you 5,000,000 DC residents, for one Tim C. May."






From aptbnl at dev.null  Thu Sep 25 03:17:05 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:17:05 +0800
Subject: Good News / Bad News
Message-ID: <342A3587.7A2D@dev.null>



Bill Gore, FBI - 
"The good news is that we have apprehended Ramon Eduardo Arellano-Felix
 in return for paying out the two million dollar reward for his sorry,
 drug-dealing, scum-sucking ass."

Louis Freeh, Lying Nazi Fuck - 
"What's the bad news?

Bill Gore, FBI - 
"We payed the two million to Jim Bell, and he used it to place a bet..."






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 03:24:31 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:24:31 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925025045.00703698@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 07:18 PM 09/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I think it was Bill Stewart who recently described all the various minor
>crimes which will likely soon involve crypto, things like calling for a
>hooker on a phone that has crypto in it, using a Metricom Ricochet wireless
>system to send banned words to a foreigner, and so on. All kinds of minor
>crimes suddenly have 10- and 20-year sentences attached.

I've been using "Jaywalking while talking on a digital cellphone",
but also things like "Cheating on your taxes with PGP on your computer"...
We came up with a bunch more at the recent Cypherpunks meeting.

So many of the extra-penalty laws are bogus; one classic abuse was a guy in 
New York who was charged with "illegal possession of a linoleum knife".
Now, possession of linoleum knives is perfectly legal, even without a
flooring-installer's license.  _This_ knife became illegal when
he allegedly stabbed his girlfriend with it, at which point he could
- keep the knife (illegal possession of a previously non-illegal object)
- get rid of it (illegal obstruction of justice), or
- turn it in at police station (good start on an insanity defense...)


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From phelix at vallnet.com  Thu Sep 25 04:01:46 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:01:46 +0800
Subject: Remailers (was Re: The problem of playing politics with our constitutional rights)
Message-ID: <342ce305.71054368@128.2.84.191>



On 24 Sep 1997 21:11:07 -0500, Eric Nystrom  wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 phelix at vallnet.com wrote:
>
>> >>remailer could automatically announce itself to the world (perhaps via a
>> >>newsgroup post).  The various listing services would pick up on this.  The
>> >>more automated it is, the better.
>> >
>> >How about posting availability notices alt.remailer-availability.announce
>> >(create it if necessary) or alt.anonymous.messages?
>> 
>> Yes, I was thinking along these lines, though right now I'm concentrating
>> on the client end of things.
>
>I'm not sure that Usenet would necessarily be the best idea for a primary
>source of remailer availability notices.  After all, the latency
>associated with Usenet might be a problem. 

That's a problem only if we expect remailers to stay up only for a few days
at a time.  I'm sure such guerilla remailers will exist, but will they be
the dominant type of remailers?

> And more to the point, some of
>us have a problem reaching a news server.  On a company LAN connected to
>the Internet, for example, any and every J. Random Eudora-user could or
>would become a remailer.  (You could have 10 or 50 or more remailers per
>organization -- enough that it would be difficult for the sysadmins to
>squash them all.)  But most companies do not allow access to a news
>server.  

I suspect that a company that didn't allow access to a news server would
also not allow you to run a remailer behind their firewall. 

> A client could telnet out to someplace in the outside world to
>announce its presence or whatever, but not post to or read from Usenet.

But then we're back to the problem of having a centralized service that can
be attacked.  I suppose it's unavoidable.  Let's hope we at least have many
different pinging services.

>I think Usenet would serve an important role as a secondary, backup source
>of information that would support and mirror the pinging services.  But
>to have Usenet as the only source of remailer availablility might be a
>little short-sighted.

I just had a thought.  Run a pinging service through the eternity servers.



Anyway, in private email, the thought of digital postage stamps has come
up.  Are there any ecash system that offer total payer anonymity (payee
anonymity is not absolutely necessary here)?  






From intofild at aol.com  Thu Sep 25 19:27:41 1997
From: intofild at aol.com (wdsmsn)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Its working read this, give it a chance,
Message-ID: <875232983.1412694.0@[1cust65.max20.orlando.fl.ms.uu.net]>


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Five people who said it did not work and it was just a scam, are now involved 
in it , After they saw what others have received. 

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***
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Read on.

Jane Nelson tells how she ran this program four times last year.  
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If this letter is continued, as it should be, 
EVERYONE PROFITS!

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After you have re-typed the list with your name in the #1 position,
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the body part of AOL's "Compose Mail" box.  
Then be sure to remove the last name on the list below,
and add your name as the first.
YOU STILL HAVE TO USE REGULAR MAIL TO SEND YOUR $5
AND ADDRESS TO THE LAST NAME!
That's what keeps this legal and how everyone gets paid!

That's all there is to it!  Here's how it works:

1.  You send out 20 letters to 20 Prospects
2.  Those 20 mail out 20 letters each (400)
3.  Those 400 mail out 20 letters each (8,000)
4.  Those 8,000 mail out 20 letter each (160,000)
5.  And those 160,000 people mail YOU 5$ each ($800,000)
Your entire investment is only $5!!!  Very inexpensive when you consider
the results you can get!
HONESTY AND INTEGRETY MAKE THIS PLAN WORK.
Breaking the rules on the way it is sent only messes up your chance of it 
working right! 
DON'T BREAK THE RULES!

Be sure to follow the instruction and omit nothing.  At this time
we are receiving an almost 100% return rate for people wise enough to
participate in the plan.

The majority receive about $700,000 on average!  And rest assured
this plan is 100% Legal!  You are providing a service to people to put
them on your mailing list.

(Please refer To):
(Title 18, Section 1302 of the US Postal Code and Lottery Laws.)

PLEASE MAIL YOUR LETTERS ASAP!

I WISH YOU SUCCESS AND TOGETHER WE'LL ALL PROSPER.

DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR DREAMS!
--------------------------------------------------------------------


#1  Ray Favereau 822 Kalli Creek Lane St. Augustine Fl 32084

#2 Danielle Burkes  1057 Larkspur Loop Jacksonville Fl. 32259

#3  J.D. Clark, P.O. Box 613, Lahoma, OK  73754

#4 Ryan Thomas, P.O. Box 2872, Joplin, MO  64803


Include your email address for courtesy updates.









From syzygy at mymail.net  Thu Sep 25 19:36:46 1997
From: syzygy at mymail.net (DONN CARROLL)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: cancel subscription
Message-ID: <199709260251.VAA03890@mail.mymail.net>


Please cancel my sbscription to the encription letter. there are to many.
Donn,  syzygy at mymail.net






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Sep 25 04:40:10 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:40:10 +0800
Subject: Secrets: The CIA's War At Home
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970925110740.00862f3c@pop.pipeline.com>



Angus Mackenzie recounts in his new book the US intelligence 
agencies' and supporters' gradual erosion of Firt Amendment 
rights since the passage of the National Security Act of
1947.

   Secrets: The CIA's War At Home
   Angus Mackenzie
   University of California Press
   Berkeley, 1997. 241 pp. $27.50
   ISBN 0-520-20020-9

"Secrets" decribes the origination of the Freedom of Information 
Act and other legislation to make government secrets available, 
the battles to get the laws passed and to defend them against 
subsequent attacks by proponents of secrecy who invoke the 
National Security Act.

Mackenzie sets out the ways the intelligence industry, helped by
the Department of Justice and the courts, manipulates 
the media, other governmental agencies and the citizenry 
by force and by seduction, with special attention to how 
it coopts its ostensible opponents like the ACLU and 
investigative journalists.

He documents the undisclosed arrangments between the CIA and the
media to favor journalism at the public's expense in legislation and
in working relations.

He carefully traces the long-running campaign to limit governmental 
employees from revealing what they know through various 
non-disclosure and lifetime secrecy agreements, sometimes breached
by ex-agency heads who reveal secrets to boost careers.

The book amply documents the ongoing struggle, now 50 years
underway, to open the archives of domestic spying, new attempts 
to limit public access to governmental information, and moves 
to invade privacy.

Here are the book's closing paragraphs:

   By the 1990s, reflecting the general conservative shift in
   Congress, many House members were actively welcoming a
   secrecy oath. Consideration of the oath, less comprehensive
   than the standard contract, first came up in the House Select
   Committee on Intelligence during a discussion of the fiscal year
   (FY) 1992 Intelligence Authorization Act. That led to a House
   rule requiring the intelligence committee members and staff to
   sign the oath. Interest in broadening the use of the oath did not
   stop there, especially for committee member Porter J. Goss of
   Florida. Goss's ties to the CIA dated from 1962 and his ten year
   stint as a clandestine service officer at the Agency. He and his
   fellow enthusiast, Henry J. Hyde of Illinois, offered amendments
   to the FY 1993 and 1994 authorization acts that would require
   secrecy oaths from every member of the House. The
   amendments did not prosper, but when the 104th Congress
   convened on January 4, 1995, backers of the oath changed
   tactics. This time the oath requirement for every House member
   was included in the packet of rules from the House Conference
   of the Majority. It became a new rule without debate.

   In the mid-1980s, Jeane Kirkpatrick sounded the alarm about
   government censorship. Although a member of the Reagan
   administration's inner foreign policy circle, Kirkpatrick had a
   personal encounter with government censors over her refusal to
   sign the lifetime secrecy contract. Upon returning to her political
   science chair at Georgetown University from her post as U.S.
   United Nations ambassador, Kirkpatrick reexamined John Stuart
   Mill's classic essay On Liberty and delivered a lecture on
   censorship. "Societies are not made stronger by the process of
   repression that accompanies censorship," she warned.
   "Censorship requires an assumption of infallibility, and that
   seems to Mill invariably negative. Repression of an opinion is
   thus bad for the censor, who inevitably acts from a conviction of
   his own infallibility," she told her students, "and bad for the
   opinion itself, which can neither be corrected nor held with
   conviction equal to the strength of an opinion submitted to
   challenge."

   As the twentieth century draws to a close, the 1947 National
   Security Act has become the Pandora's box that Ambassador
   Kirkpatrick and Congressman Hoffman had feared. Placing a
   legal barrier between foreign intelligence operations and
   domestic politics in the National Security Act has proved
   ineffectual. In the decades that followed 1947, the CIA not only
   became increasingly involved in domestic politics but abridged
   First Amendment guarantees of free speech and free press in a
   conspiracy to keep this intrusion from the American people. The
   intelligence and military secrecy of the 1940s had broadened in
   the 1960s to covering up the suppression of domestic dissent.
   The 1980s registered a further, more fundamental change, as
   the suppression of unpopular opinions was supplemented by
   systematic and institutionalized peacetime censorship for the
   first time in U.S. history. The repressive machinery developed by
   the CIA has spread secrecy like oil on water.

   The U.S. government has always danced with the devil of
   secrecy during wartime. By attaching the word "war" to the
   economic and ideological race for world supremacy between
   the Soviet Union and the United States, a string of
   administrations continued this dance uninterrupted for fifty
   years. The cold war provided the foreign threat to justify the
   pervasive Washington belief that secrecy should have the
   greatest possible latitude and openness should be restricted as
   much as possible -- constitutional liberties be damned.

   With the collapse of the Soviet Union as a world power in 1990,
   even the pseudo-war rationale evaporated. But the partisans of
   secrecy have not been willing to accept the usual terms of
   peacetime. They have made clear their intentions to preserve
   and extend the wartime system. They will find a rationalization: if
   not the threat of the Soviet Union, then the goal of economic
   hegemony. Thus the U.S. government now needs to keep
   secrets to give an advantage to American corporate interests.
   Yet it is entrepreneurs who have been making the most use of
   FOIA -- not journalists, not lawyers. As of 1994, the great
   preponderance of all FOIA requests have been for business
   purposes. As the framers of the Constitution understood, the
   free exchange of ideas is good for commerce, but this idea has
   been widely forgotten in the years since the passage of the 1947
   National Security Act.

   Only recently in the history of the world's oldest republic has
   secrecy functioned principally to keep the American people in
   the dark about the nefarious activities of their government. The
   United States is no longer the nation its citizens once thought: a
   place, unlike most others in the world, free from censorship and
   thought police, where people can say what they want, when they
   want to, about their government. Almost a decade after the end
   of the cold war, espionage is not the issue, if it ever really was.
   The issue is freedom, as it was for the Minute Men at Compo
   Hill. The issue is principle, as it was for Ernest Fitzgerald, who
   never signed a secrecy contract but retained his Pentagon job
   because he made his stand for the First Amendment resonate in
   Congress. Until the citizens of this land aggressively defend
   their First Amendment rights of free speech, there is little hope
   that the march to censorship will be reversed. The survival of
   the cornerstone of the Bill of Rights is at stake.






From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Sep 25 04:52:52 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:52:52 +0800
Subject: Year 2000 Solutions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970925044100.006a1544@cnw.com>




I found this bit of news info in the Softworld '97 website, for any of you
who are interested:

(http://www.softworld.org/cfm/sfwd8000.cfm?X=62)

Year 2000 Solutions From India's Largest Software Consultancy

Tue, Sep 9, 1997, Vancouver, BC � Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), India's
largest global provider of software and software services, came to
Softworld 97 looking for potential clients in all areas of software needs,
including Year 2000. With their existing Y2K tool capabilities, coupled
with two upcoming announcements, Softworld 97 is providing TCS with an
excellent source for potential deals. � 
TCS is already using its proprietary Y2K tools for projects involving: 

IBM Mainframe (OS/VS COBOL, COBOL II ETACOBOL, PL/1, ASSEMBLER, EASYTRIEVE,
MANTIS, TELON, SCEPTER, NATURAL, ADS/O, JCL, plus IDMS, IMS, DB2 and SUPRA) 
AS/400 (RPG, COBOL, CL, S/36, S/38, OCL) 
Tandem (COBOL, SCOBOL) 
DEC VAX (COBOL, POWERHOUSE) 
Honeywell-Bull (COBOL) 
Unix "C" 

In two weeks TCS will offer its AS/400 Y2K toolset, named Y2KIT/400, for
sale around the world as either a stand-alone product or bundled with
services. This tool suite has already proven its value in several
international projects involvimg millions of lines of code. 
On October 1st, TCS will open a "dedicated Y2K Factory" in Chennai
(formerly Madras), India. This facility will be unique in that it will have
1000 dedicated Indian software professionals, utilizing an IBM 9672-R44 (4
processor, CMOS) Mainframe, and equipped with a high-speed T1 satellite
link to North America. With 200 MLOC already under contract, this Center is
being commissioned to handle 1 Billion lines of code. 

"Our attendance at Softworld 97 could not have come at a more opportune
time," states Jim Thomas, TCS' Vice President of Marketing for North
America, "as there are numerous companies present with Y2K requirements." 


    ..
Blanc






From Syniker at aol.com  Thu Sep 25 05:46:33 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:46:33 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <970925083307_1823151540@emout19.mail.aol.com>



I'd like to see a path for this thing too...
maybe declan can help there...
I'm gatherin addressess for my own
mail, fax, phone thing...

Larry.
pgp pubkey: http://www.jetlink.net/~aargh/






From bubba at dev.null  Thu Sep 25 06:22:36 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:22:36 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 21 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342A5B59.32AB@dev.null>

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From bubba at dev.null  Thu Sep 25 06:36:08 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:36:08 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 21 / The GeigerBurg Text
Message-ID: <342A5B96.4FC@dev.null>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This has got to stop!" the crimson-faced man threw the printout on the desk
of the Sex Criminal.

The Sex Criminal, as usual, just laughed and tried to make light of the
situation.
"Well, at least Lying Fuck is better than Lying Nazi Cunt." the Sex Criminal
winced as the woman Senator walked into the room just as the words were
coming out of his mouth.

The Nazi Cunt shot the Sex Criminal a stare that took the heat out of even
his easily excitable loins. The post she had in her hand was even more to
the point than the one that the Lying Fuck had thrown on the Sex Criminal's
desk.
She handed it to the Lying Fuck with a chagrined grin, saying, "Why don't
you read it first, Mr. Freeh-dumb!"

The Sex Criminal began to chuckle, but stopped quickly when the FBI Director
shot him a stare that was colder than even the Nazi Cunt's withering look.
The Lying Fuck then turned his attention to the email that the Nazi Cunt had
received, along with a few hundred other Senators and Congressmen shortly
before the vote on the ultra-fascist Oxley Amendment to the dictatorial SAFE
bill being pushed in the House Commerce Committee.

To: senator at feinstein.senate.gov
From: HugeCajones Remailer
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "GOMEZ IS COMING!"
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from TruthMonster.
X-Comments: It was sent by an automated anonymous asshole under the
X-Comments: auspices of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: Note: Send any complaints about abuse of this remailer
X-Comments: to the person most concerned about your rights and
X-Comments: freedoms. (Hint: It's a "mirror" site.)

Subject: !!! DEATH THREAT !!!

You should be careful before you do foolish things like making a death
threat because it can have really bad results.
�
People like the Constitution a lot and if you are making a death threat
against it then it is like saying your going to kill someone else's
friend or family and everyone knows that they will kill you because
they are domestic and not a stranger. Or is it that they are stranger
and not domesticated?
Never mind. You know what I mean.

"Damn!" the Lying Fuck swore with a vengeance, "It's the fucking nephew,
again."

He began to pace the floor, angry that he had been boxed into a corner where
taking strong action in response to this post would involve sending a swat
team into an allied foreign country to arrest a fourteen year-old kid. A
cute kid, nonetheless. A cute Christian kid.
He shook his head slowly, as if in pain, as he continued to read the kid's
continuing diatribe against encryption opponents.

Especially if you try to make it so that they cannot put aluminum foil
hats on their thoughts and their words and their writing. Then they
get really, really, nervous and maybe start thinking that they have to
kill everybody because they are not safe from anybody.

You should be careful before you vote to kill the Constitution and look
under all your chairs and stuff, just in case.

The Sex Criminal was reading the same passage, and he looked up at the FBI
Director, asking, "Isn't that a threat? Can't we do something about that?"
He looked to the Nazi Cunt for support�

"Jesus, Bill!" the Nazi Cunt said, rolling her eyes upward.
"You want to send the fucking Marines up to bring back a Canadian teenager
in leg-irons so that he can remind our citizens that we have a constitution?
Give it a break."

Freeh continued to read the email.

Even if you do think you can kill the Constitution and still have all of
the people believe you are not a bad person then you should at least
try not to let really stupid people who you work with say things like
"I am too stupid to learn about this stuff so I am going to let the guys
who want to make aluminum foil hats illegal and put everyone in jail
decide how I vote to kill the Constitution."
The one those guys who always say "Nuke DC" call Swinestein said
that and it made everyone think you are all that stupid and going to
let people with guns who kill women and children make your votes
for you. Then even more of them say "Nuke DC" especially when they
remember how bad the guys with the guns that you are letting vote for
you fucked their friend (sorry but thats what they did) for making a
stink with the IRS.

The Lying Fuck couldn't help himself-he burst out laughing, with the Sex
Criminal following close behind. He caught her frigid stare and said, "You
said it, not me�"
"�Swinestein." he half-mumbled under his breath.

"I heard that, you bastard!" the Nazi Cunt screamed, turning and stomping
out of the room in a great huff.

If you take away some of the guns from people then you have to take
away all the guns or you are in big trouble. If you take away some of
the Constitution from people then you have to take away all of the
Constitution or you are in big trouble.
Even if you think you took away all of the things that people can use
to be safe and free then they will make more-like Doritos.

If you try to kill them with bullshit then they will try to kill you
with their own brand of fertilizer. If you take away their aluminum
foil hats then they will make hats out of paper and call them
Forever Young.

The FBI Director recognized the veiled reference to the Eternity Servers. He
made a mental note to himself to begin action against them as soon as
possible. He could make it a side-project of the agents working against the
anonymous remailer operators.
That reminded him�hadn't they already killed off the Huge Cajones Remailer?
He needed to check that out, ASAP.

Killing the Constitution is a lot like killing DC-if your going to do
it then you might as well do it right and do it all at once.
Guys with guns who want to kill Freeh-dumb know that and so do
guys with nukes who are Freeh-dumb fighters. (My uncle made up a
new word about him-he said he "testiLied to Congress.")

"Cocksucker!" the Lying Fuck banged his fist on the Sex Criminal's desk.
"This fucker is dead!" he screamed, beginning to lose control, and throwing
the email on the floor, stomping on it with one foot, and then the other.

The Sex Criminal continued to read the end of the post.

Don't be a stranger,
APlayerToBeNamedLater
p.s. - If you see Declan McCullagh getting in his car and driving like
hell away from the city then you should get in your car and do the
same thing. You dont need to pack a suitcase because I think if he
does that then there is already one packed.
(Thats what the guys with guns told you in your secret meetings so
you will kill the Constitution for them isnt it?)

The Sex Criminal looked puzzled.
"How do these people get this information?" he naively asked his head
bonecrusher.

The Lying Fuck was getting tired of explaining the obvious to this fucking
idiot, but he took relief in the fact that now the Line Item Veto had been
passed, they could dump these liberal shills off at the next election stop
and bring in an Aryan thoroughbred to make the Run for the Roses at the turn
of the millennium.

"We know we're going to do it. They know we're going to do it. The nuclear
suitcase argument was Oxley's hole card, but this fucking email took the
steam out of his argument by ridiculing it before it was even presented."

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Lying Fuck spit the word out, as the Sex Criminal
handed him a printout of a news article that would be appearing in print the
following day.

Encryption Bill Gets Approval Of House Panel
By CHRIS DiEDOARDO San Diego Daily Transcript, Sept. 24, 1997
�
The 40-11 vote late Wednesday in the House Commerce Committee could sound
the death knell to FBI Director Louis J. Freeh's attempt to require software
companies to install a "back door" in their security packages in order make
them more accessible to law enforcement officials.
�
"In closed session, the FBI said they don't have a problem with encryption
in foreign markets, as they have the ability to use the military to decrypt
the messages," Bilbray said, adding the agency didn't have that capability
domestically.

"God damn it!" the bonecrusher's temperature was rising, once again. "What
the fuck good is a 'closed session' when everything we tell these dweebs
gets printed before we get out of the goddamn building.
"The press breaks the stories about our spreading bad replacement parts into
foreign weapons systems, and the next thing you know, we have planes falling
out of the fucking sky faster than we can count. Now we have to try to keep
other countries in line with our weak encryption policy at the same time
we're confirming that we can read their fucking minds and want to keep it
that way."
He shook his head in disgust, and continued reading the article.

Early reaction from within the encryption industry was mixed. While John
Kelsey of Counterpane Systems in Jefferson City, Mo., thought the
Markey-White package was better than the alternatives, he said there was
still a long way to go.

"The best thing they could do is get rid of the export controls and
otherwise not interfere by trying to regulate this technology," he said.
"The FBI should be pushing for all Americans to use strong crypto, as
cryptology makes crime harder."
"When you encrypt credit-card numbers, that makes it a lot harder to commit
credit card fraud," Kelsey said. "In fact, properly designed payment
protocols make it very difficult for people to steal money from the system
or frame other people."
"What happens is the law-abiding citizens are constantly being encroached on
for the convenience of us in government."

"Intuitively, it seems like a bad idea to build a large infrastructure for
eavesdropping on the American people," he said. "That's not a decision
people should make without spending a lot of time thinking about whether
we're comfortable doing that, as we'd be building the infrastructure for a
police state."

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Lying Fuck said again, recognizing Kelsey's name.

"Fucking cypherpunks!" the Sex Criminal echoed.

The FBI Director sat silently steaming, making quick and hard decisions as
to how to proceed with his agenda of total information control.
Time to start hitting the hardware vendors hard, again, shaking the trees
for those who would be the quickest to fold to the NSA's plans for hardwired
monitoring and back doors into all aspects of computer systems, including
encryption.

He took his pen and circled the name 'Intel' on his game plan cheat-sheet.

"Hit them hard and hit them everywhere." he said to himself.

It was long past time to bother with the pretension of friendly discussion.
He had gone past the point of no return with the announcement of his
intention to gain law enforcement access to all aspects of corporate and
private communications, the Constitution be damned, and he was not about to
turn back now. Not on your life�

Copyright "TruthMangler "
"I stuck my head between her cheeks, but I didn't inhale." ~ Marv Alpert
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------








From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Sep 25 07:04:35 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:04:35 +0800
Subject: SAFE = Security and Fascism through Escrow
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> As our Big Brothers in D.C. continue to abuse the language by taking SAFE
> in a direction 180 degrees from the original intentions, it seems only fair
> that we rename the bill the Security and Fascism through Escrow Bill.
> 
> --Tim May

Erm, Tim you've somehow managed to misspell SODOMY.  There's no securiy in
SAFE, by definition, it's a security hole through which the citizens get
sodomized.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 25 07:29:33 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:29:33 +0800
Subject: National ID as Identity Authentication answer for EC?
Message-ID: 



Evidently these idiots haven't heard of digital bearer certificates...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rhornbec at counselpop.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:22:13 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion 
Sender: Digital Signature discussion 
From: Rick Hornbeck 
Subject:      National ID as Identity Authentication answer for EC?
To: DIGSIG at VM.TEMPLE.EDU

An interesting article by Thomas P. Vartanian appeared in the September 24
issue of the American Banker discussing the increasing need for identity
authentication in electronic commerce and the use of National ID
Verification Standards (NIVS) as a possible solution.

Although the article avoids proposing specific ultimate sources of identity
it does mention that "the adoption of these standards might facilitate the
development of a national market for certificate authority
errors-and-omissions insurance. It might also facilitate the creation and
operation of what one observer has called 'cybernotaries.'

Without uniformity in the authentication process, the efficiencies of
certificates and the effectiveness of electronic commerce will be undercut."

Following is a brief excerpt. Complete article available at:
http://www.jya.com/national-id.htm

====================


                             24 September 1997
                        Source: The American Banker

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comment/ The Case for National ID Verification Standards

By Thomas P. Vartanian
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson

Financial fraud depends heavily on perpetrators' ability to hide their
identities or assume those of others. Because the Internet is a medium for
anonymous communication, it has been and will continue to be a breeding
ground for innovation in electronic fraud.

Proponents of electronic commerce seek to limit this risk through the use
of digital certificates and similar methods of electronic authentication
and verification. This raises a complex question for the trusted third
parties, many of which may be banks, that certify the issuance and use of
public keys in the digital signature arena: What does it mean to certify
that a specific public key represents X in a world where the identification
of X is an imprecise science?

Authentication must be the starting point in any electronic network
transaction. Lacking the customary modes of physical identification, the
parties to a faceless transaction in cyberspace need proof from a third
party that each party is who he or she purports to be.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From shabbir at panix.com  Thu Sep 25 07:31:10 1997
From: shabbir at panix.com (Shabbir J. Safdar)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:31:10 +0800
Subject: Domain name hearings starting right now.  (www.democracy.net)
Message-ID: <199709251410.KAA23498@panix3.panix.com>



The domain name hearings are going on right now (you can listen in realaudio)
at http://www.democracy.net/

The future of the infrastructure hangs in the balance of this debate.

Check it out.

-S






From sunder at brainlink.com  Thu Sep 25 07:34:47 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:34:47 +0800
Subject: 767 MHz Alpha, opinion_mode_enabled (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:37 AM -0700 9/17/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >I 'spose it's gettin' to be time that we ditched them 512 bit keys and
> >them 40 bit keys. :)  The very existance of a 2.6GHz CPU - yes freon
> >cooled is more than enough...
> 
> As Ray knows, processors are getting more powerful at a very slow rate.
> Mere doublings and triplings in speed are what we're seeing in the newer
> generations of processors. (And these require multibillion dollar wafer
> fabs to build.)
> 
> A 400 MHz Pentium II, or a 767 MHz Alpha, or whatever, is significant for a
> lot of business applications--faster transaction processing, better video
> processing, etc.--but it ain't meaningful for breaking ciphers.

True, but my point wasn't that cyphers can be broken faster, but rather
that we can use larger key lengths and get more strength out of our
cyphers now without having huge impacts on performance. :)


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder at sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================






From amp at pobox.com  Thu Sep 25 07:34:54 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:34:54 +0800
Subject: opponents of GAK
Message-ID: 





Has anyone out there been keeping track of all the organizations, 
corporations and others who have come out against GAK?

Pointers would be appreciated.

alan
------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/25/97
Time: 09:17:21
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rhornbec at counselpop.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:59:31 -0500
Reply-To: Digital Signature discussion 
Sender: Digital Signature discussion 
From: Rick Hornbeck 
Subject:      American Banker - National ID - addendum
To: DIGSIG at VM.TEMPLE.EDU

Either the Temple listserve is automatically limiting the length of my
posts ()
or I discovered a new e-mail bug. Here is the balance of the
excerpt from the American Banker article I intended to post earlier.

====================

What actions should a certificate authority be required to take in this
imperfect system to certify that X's public key actually is being used by
X? To allow the electronic marketplace to operate effectively and
efficiently, at a minimum certificate authorities must be able to achieve
some level of certainty that if they have prudently conducted the due
diligence required, they cannot be held responsible for fraud or
malfunctions. National Identification Verification Standards-NIVS-would
underscore that there should be only a limited range of actions for which a
certificate authority should be held responsible in an electronic
transaction.

These standards eventually would need to be truly universal because of the
globality and borderlessness of cyberspace. Moreover, such standards could
level the playing field vis-a-vis the different levels of trust that might
otherwise be accorded certificate authorities of various sizes, financial
capacity, name recognition, and national origin.

What should the elements of these national verification standards be? The
more that the system relies on primary "root" documentation (paper or
electronic) certified by the originator, the greater the certainty, albeit
imperfect, that the certificate authority can achieve.

The adoption of an integrated certification data base accessible to all
certificate authorities must also be explored. A network that will allow
each certificate authority to cross-reference digital certificates and
confirm the issuance of multiple certificates to the subscriber will allow
the digital signature market to function more efficiently and safely.

>From a legal point of view, a digital certificate is a form of warranty.
Warranties ascribe and allocate rights in a transaction, a business that
commercial banks happen to understand quite well. But a digital certificate
is not meant and should not be viewed as unlimited insurance for the use of
the certificate or the successful completion of an electronic transaction
facilitated by that certificate.

In that regard, the adoption of these standards might facilitate the
development of a national market for certificate authority errors-and-
omissions insurance. It might also facilitate the creation and operation of
what one observer has called "cybernotaries."

Without uniformity in the authentication process, the efficiencies of
certificates and the effectiveness of electronic commerce will be undercut.
Richard N. Hornbeck
Electronic Commerce Services

"The most important step in arriving at the right answer, is asking the
right question." Albert Einstein ("Al").

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From trei at process.com  Thu Sep 25 07:38:40 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:38:40 +0800
Subject: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery
Message-ID: <199709251421.HAA27813@toad.com>



> Date:          Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:15:45 -0400
> To:            Ross Anderson 
> From:          Carl Ellison 
> Subject:       Re: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery 
> Cc:            cypherpunks at toad.com, Ron Rivest ,
>                cme at cybercash.com
> Reply-to:      Carl Ellison 

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 09:34 AM 9/23/97 +0100, Ross Anderson wrote:
> >There is also the point that the vast majority of encryption keys are
> >actually used for authentication rather than confidentiality. The keys
> >that encrypt your bank card PIN en route from the ATM to the bank, the
> >keys in your satellite TV decoder, the keys in your gas meter and your
> >postal meter - in fact the majority of all DES keys in use - are about
> >authentication. In theory most of them could be replaced by digital 
> >signature mechanisms but given the size of the installed base, it 
> >won't happen anytime soon.
> 
> For what it's worth, I once got an opinion from NSA's export control office 
> that I could use any kind of crypto I wanted (e.g., even triple-DES) if all 
> I'm doing is protecting a channel carrying a password (like the PIN), 
> because that's an authentication function and therefore to be encouraged.  I 
> didn't get this in writing, however, so I'd have to go for it again.
> 
>  - Carl

Well, I dunno. About 18 months ago, I was involved with the 
negotiations over the exportability of an SSL equipped web
server I had helped develop. The export model used 40 bit RC4
and 512 bit keys. The initial version used 3DES to encrypt 
stored private keys, and this was turned down. I modified it to
use single DES, and it passed.

Note that this was for secret key storage only.

Peter Trei
trei at Process.com






From attila at hun.org  Thu Sep 25 08:16:00 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:16:00 +0800
Subject: Good News / Bad News  NOT FUNNY, GUYS
In-Reply-To: <342A3587.7A2D@dev.null>
Message-ID: <199709251506.JAA04356@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    NOT FUNNY, GUYS

    whether or not this is intended to be tonque in cheek or not, it is
    in poor taste given Jim Bell's circumstances.  that is true whether
    or not you thought he had it coming or not.  regardless of the 
    implications to government, Jim Bell is a political prisoner.

on or about 970925:0357 
    A Player To Be Named Later  purported to expostulate:

+Bill Gore, FBI - 
+"The good news is that we have apprehended Ramon Eduardo Arellano-Felix
+ in return for paying out the two million dollar reward for his sorry,
+ drug-dealing, scum-sucking ass."

+Louis Freeh, Lying Nazi Fuck - 
+"What's the bad news?

+Bill Gore, FBI - 
+"We payed the two million to Jim Bell, and he used it to place a
+bet..."

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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=jYFU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 08:31:23 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:31:23 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924181510.0314c160@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:18 PM -0700 9/24/97, Tim May wrote:
>The good news today is that if Salomon keeps to his word, the Security and
>Fascism Through Escrow Act is dead, dead, dead.

Even if he doesn't, I don't think Clinton will sign it (in its present,
export enabling, criminal sentence enhancing) form.

The scary thing is that  great lover of the technology industry
and the Bill of Rights 




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From gnu at toad.com  Thu Sep 25 23:53:06 1997
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Documents re 9th Circuit Emergency Stay now online
Message-ID: <199709260643.XAA12149@toad.com>


The Government asked the 9th Circuit on the 10th for an "emergency
stay" of the District Court's limited injunction that would let
Prof. Bernstein publish his Snuffle software online.

Now you'll find Bernstein's opposition to that motion, filed on the
17th, online.  And the government's attempted emergency reply, filed
on the 22nd.  You will also find the 9th Circuit motions panel's terse
order granting the government motion (blocking Bernstein from
publishing online) and scheduling the case for very fast processing.
The final 9th Circuit hearing will be in December, and we have a
prospect for hearing a decision by Christmas.

See http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/Legal/.
(You may have to ask your browser to "Reload" to see the new changes.)

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation





From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 09:25:12 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:25:12 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <01BCC93A.D0869BA0@dasc12-105.flash.net>
Message-ID: 



Lucky has it right. SAFE is extremely unlikely to go to the floor without
additional "compromise."

Then there's the "compromise" with whatever bill the Senate coughs up.
Remember that pro-crypto legislation is dead there; only McCain-Kerrey got
out of committee. Also remember the Senate is more conservative...

Then there's the reality that no pro-crypto legislation would get past a
presidential veto...

-Declan


At 07:16 -0700 9/25/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:
>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring
>> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented
>> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to
>> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I
>> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction
>> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his
>> constituents want....
>
>What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
>want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
>the Oxley ammendment.
>
>-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
>   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"








From spector at zeitgeist.com  Thu Sep 25 09:25:28 1997
From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:25:28 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: <970925083307_1823151540@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199709251608.MAA31570@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>





Before you go an collect all that info. you might want to surf on over to:

		http://www.zeitgeist.com/crypto

and pick up a copy of PersPAK  which has ALL the information you are looking 
for (and more)....

_DHMS






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 09:31:29 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:31:29 +0800
Subject: Crypto-victory in Commerce
Message-ID: 



Corrections:

>So I'm sitting here in the lobbyist warren of the Capitol
                                                     ^^^^
                                  should be Capital Grille

>to be conducted by the Attorney General, a NIST study on
>crypto, and liability limitations on firms providing key
                                            ^^^^^^^^
                                   should be NTIA study


-Declan







From declan at vorlon.mit.edu  Thu Sep 25 09:38:16 1997
From: declan at vorlon.mit.edu (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:38:16 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:06:33 -0600
From: Aaron Weissman 
To: "'fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu'" 
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Today, the House Commerce Committee made an 
important statement which will have lasting 
ramifications on the status of personal privacy 
in our nation for the foreseeable future.

I know what you all are thinking -- former White 
staffer, praising his old boss.  In the interests 
of total disclosure, I did work for Rep. White, 
and I still think he is an all-around great guy.  
However, solely on the merits of this amendment, 
I believe that it deserves the support of the 
Internet community (whatever *that* is).

The NETCenter is a great idea.  Very few of us 
would argue that our society has an interest 
defining rules and in prosecuting their 
transgression as crimes.  Once we have agreed on 
that point, the issue changes to a (still very 
important) discussion on methods.  By creating a 
decryption lab (and funding it with tremendous 
amounts of money), our society will fulfill the 
basic obligation to protect against the 
transgression of our rules.

However, despite the worst intentions of some, 
this laboratory cannot be an indiscriminate tool. 
 The United States Government may be a the 
ultimate example as an organization possessing 
"national means," however, it's resources are far 
from infinite.  In addition, such a lab would 
require our very best and brightest 
mathematicians. We may be able to afford one of 
these labs, but more would be a large stretch.

Once this NETCenter exists, the demands for it's 
services will soon outstrip it's resources.  In 
addition, the massive cost involved per use would 
be large enough to attract public scrutiny.  I 
have no doubt that our government could crack the 
very largest keys if it were to through billions 
of dollars at the problem.  However, in an age of 
shrinking budgets and a commitment to a balanced 
budget, that much money is not spent without 
considerable oversight.

I have no doubt that a considerable portion of 
the NETCenter's time will be spent in matters of 
foreign intelligence.  (As I said, we cannot 
afford two massive decryption laboratories -- the 
NSA will have to give its decryption mandate to 
this new agency).  In sum, this amendment gives 
us a powerful decryption laboratory with a great 
deal of sunshine on its use and limited resources 
on behalf of law enforcement.

These factors make the NETCenter a great tool for 
targeted decryption, but they also guarantee that 
appropriate judicial supervision is acquired 
before the NETCenter can be used.  In other 
words, this is a great tool for prosecutors to 
use *after* they have established probable cause 
in their most heinous cases, and a strong 
guarantee that the eyes of the government will 
not intrude into our persons, papers and effects.

The passage of this amendment helps ensure that 
the terms of this debate remain centered on our 
civil liberties -- not kiddie porn.  If we are 
going to win this argument (and the stakes are 
very large) we have to keep this debate framed 
with our criteria.

Many may disagree with me on these points, and I 
we
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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 25 11:12:14 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:12:14 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 9:07 AM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:06:33 -0600
>From: Aaron Weissman 
>To: "'fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu'" 
>Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea

>The NETCenter is a great idea.  Very few of us
>would argue that our society has an interest
>defining rules and in prosecuting their

The NETCenter is largely duplicative, though will be much less effective,
than the NSA. I strongly urge Aaron and others to review the history and
capabilities (and limitations) of the NSA.

>transgression as crimes.  Once we have agreed on
>that point, the issue changes to a (still very
>important) discussion on methods.  By creating a
>decryption lab (and funding it with tremendous
>amounts of money), our society will fulfill the
>basic obligation to protect against the
>transgression of our rules.

The COMINT mission of the NSA _already_ consumes vast amounts of money,
with an estimated staffing (for the NSA as a whole) of 100,000 persons.
(Obviously many of them are not doing SIGINT and COMINT, but a fair
fraction are. And the Agency has had five decades or more to build up this
staff.) The NSA also draws on additional resources, including the Defense
Language School and related facilities for translation, the DOD branches of
signals intelligence (Naval Security Group, Air Force Intelligence, Army
Security Agency, etc.), and has ties to CIA, DIA, NRO, etc.

It is UNLIKELY IN THE EXTREME that a NETCenter could even remotely approach
the NSA in decryption capabilities, so the funding of NETCenter would
mostly be throwing away money for a feelgood, public "demonstration site."

(The NSA sometimes assists with law enforcement. But often it does not. I
grant that a purely civilian codebreaking facility might once have been
needed. But for reasons I'll get to below, it's much too late to start now!
And much too expensive.)

>However, despite the worst intentions of some,
>this laboratory cannot be an indiscriminate tool.
> The United States Government may be a the
>ultimate example as an organization possessing
>"national means," however, it's resources are far
>from infinite.  In addition, such a lab would
>require our very best and brightest
>mathematicians. We may be able to afford one of
>these labs, but more would be a large stretch.

Indeed, and those bright mathematicians who are also willing to work as
GS-14s. 15s, and so on, are mostly at the NSA now. Again, look into the
funding of the NSA and ask if the country would be willing to make a
similar expenditure for NETCenter. (Not that it will help.)


>Once this NETCenter exists, the demands for it's
>services will soon outstrip it's resources.  In
>addition, the massive cost involved per use would
>be large enough to attract public scrutiny.  I

Once the NETCenter failed to decypt the first several dozen instances of
PGP or 3DES thrust before it, I rather expect enthusiasm will wane.


>have no doubt that our government could crack the
>very largest keys if it were to through billions
>of dollars at the problem.  However, in an age of

Aaron, you really need to get up to speed on cryptography. Even the basics
of it.

When you do, you'll discover that it is strongly believed (though not yet
proved) that leading ciphers are "hard" to break. Conventional
cryptanalysis is useless, i.e., the kind where fragments of text are used
to help produce a key.

Even the NSA has acknowledged that cryptanalysis of modern ciphers is
essentially impossible, at least from intercepted ciphertext. (Interception
of signals, a la TEMPEST, may be a different matter, and of course there
are important civil liberties issues involved in setting up such
surveillance operations.)

As to you point that "very largest keys" could be cracked with "billions of
dollars," check out some of the "work factor" (difficulty of brute forcing)
estimates for modern ciphers. Schneier's "Applied Cryptography" is a good
place to start.

You will see that some ciphers have work factors for readily achievable
keys which exceed the energy in the entire universe. (The "secure phone" I
have, from Communication Security Corporation, uses 3DES. This is something
like 100 bits more in key length than ordinary DES. Even if a "Wiener
machine" can be built to break ordinary, 56-bit DES, at a cost of perhaps a
million bucks or so for the entire machine (and then perhaps a few hundred
bucks per crack, it is estimated), think of the cost of the machine to
break 3DES! 2^100 times harder is about 10^30 times harder. Now that's a
lot of money! The "tab" for each American  taxpayer would be about $10^22.

(There is a slight possibility that dramatic speedups in cracking could
come from mathematical advances. DES and other ciphers are under constant
scrutiny, and 22 years or more of scrutiny of DES has produced a limited
speedup.)

The point is this: modern ciphers are for all intents and purposes
"unbreakable."

Though we as technical people are usually cautious to say that
"unbreakable" is a dangerous word, the fact is that it's our current best
description of what a 2000-bit RSA key is, and that's all there is to it.

See Schneier for more on why this is so.


>I have no doubt that a considerable portion of
>the NETCenter's time will be spent in matters of
>foreign intelligence.  (As I said, we cannot
>afford two massive decryption laboratories -- the
>NSA will have to give its decryption mandate to
>this new agency).  In sum, this amendment gives

Right. I'm sure that will happen.

- --Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



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=/s7n
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From alano at teleport.com  Thu Sep 25 11:16:29 1997
From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:16:29 +0800
Subject: A maybe workable idea
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925105638.03aa68d4@mail.teleport.com>



I am not certain about how well this would work.  I am certain that the LEA
community would try and compromise or stop it at some point.

The idea is to get the ACLU or some other group with some name recognition
in the software/privacy/free-speech realm to sponsor a program to certify
programs with crypto as GAK-free.  I think that having software with a big
yellow sticker stating "certified not to contain Government backdoors or
other peepholes into your data" would have a useful effect on the buying
public.

I wonder if a "truth in labeling" law could be pushed through...  Imagine a
big sticker on products that say "Government agencies can read files
created by this product without your knowledge".

Probably a pipe dream.  I can see a number of problems with it.  Microsoft
would bully their way into getting the cert GAKed or not.  The FBI would
probably put pressure on the retail chains to avoid products pushing
political messages such as freedom from Government intrusion from being sold.

It would be worth a try at least...






From brock at well.com  Thu Sep 25 11:24:07 1997
From: brock at well.com (Brock N. Meeks)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:24:07 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 4. Conference committee between the Senate and House versions.
> 
> Underlying all this is the threat of a presidential veto. What pro-crypto
> legislation can survive it? That will give the FBI/NSA more leverage when
> pushing for their kind of "compromise." Especially because of the slothful
> speed of the Senate, the process will take close to a year, probably.

Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  If it 
doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see Congress 
again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped clean and 
we start from ground zero.







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 11:25:21 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:25:21 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I'm sure others can expand on this, but to me the big four inflection
points seem to be:

1. In the version of the SAFE bill the House Rules committee chooses. There
are now four substantially different versions. We have: the "original" SAFE
(with criminal penalties for crypto-in-a-crime); SAFE with domestic
crypto-controls; SAFE with its export relaxation section gutted;
yesterday's SAFE with more studies and doubled criminal penalties. This is
likely to be done in closed-room negotiations with the heads of Judiciary,
Intelligence, etc. I'm told that the first meetings are already being
scheduled. The House leadership will play a big role in anything the Rules
committee does.

2. In the way the House Rules committee reports the bill. Which amendments
will be allowed during floor debate, and in what order?

3. There are countless points during the Senate proceedings where FBI/NSA
can work on the legislation. McCain-Kerrey will probably go to the Senate
Intelligence committee, for instance. It's sure to go through Judiciary,
where Kyl and Feinstein are waiting eagerly. Sen. "Digital Telephony"
Leahy, whose original crypto-bill last year was a key escrow fetishist's
wet dream, is sure to get involved.

4. Conference committee between the Senate and House versions.

Underlying all this is the threat of a presidential veto. What pro-crypto
legislation can survive it? That will give the FBI/NSA more leverage when
pushing for their kind of "compromise." Especially because of the slothful
speed of the Senate, the process will take close to a year, probably.

-Declan


At 08:45 -0700 9/25/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
>>
>> I'd love to see a simple map/diagram of all the inflection points where the
>> FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE.  Call it morbid curiosity.  Last
>> year's model was bad, and it's only gotten worse.
>
>Such a diagram would be interesing to have. Not everybody watched "How a
>bill becomes law". :-) And there is sigificant interest in this issue from
>our international readers that are not as familiar with the political
>process in the US as perhaps some of us US citizens are.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From lizard at dnai.com  Thu Sep 25 11:25:42 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:25:42 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925110022.031567f4@dnai.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 10:33 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Once the NETCenter failed to decypt the first several dozen 
instances of
>PGP or 3DES thrust before it, I rather expect enthusiasm will wane.

But it doesn't have to decrypt it. It has to tell the cops:
"OK, you need to send a guy in there when he's not home and look for 
a file called 'mykey.gkr' on his computer...it will probably be in 
c:\pgp. Then you need to plant a video camera to watch him type his 
passphrase. Then we can read his mail, no sweat."

I don't know why I keep making this point, but the weak point in 
crypto is NOT the length of the key, it's the human factor. Go after 
the HUMAN USING THE CRYPTO via traditional spy/police methods, and 
smeg the key length.

But to do that, you see, you'll need warrents, reasons for 
suspiscion, and, becuase of the effort involved, you'll only do it 
for serious crimes with a strong liklihood of conviction. *That* is 
the 'stauts quo' law enforcement *claims* to want.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCqmtTKf8mIpTvjWEQKP2QCg23fm4sNAs0Uj9d2DZT/60ZRWgeIAoI37
/RgFkiiCHHo10o2/8yiBTj+i
=af7a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From alan at ctrl-alt-del.com  Thu Sep 25 11:44:35 1997
From: alan at ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:44:35 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925112401.042b85bc@ctrl-alt-del.com>



At 11:06 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

>Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  If it 
>doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see Congress 
>again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped clean and 
>we start from ground zero.

A strangly appropreate choice of words. ]:>

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|






From lizard at dnai.com  Thu Sep 25 11:47:42 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:47:42 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925112535.0315a634@dnai.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:06 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote:

>Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  
If it 
>doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see 
Congress 
>again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped 
clean and 
>we start from ground zero.
>
Forgive my seeming political ignorance, but since 90% of those there 
now will be there then, does having a 'new' Congress really mean 
anything?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCqsnjKf8mIpTvjWEQIlUACfQvpShsUkinrB3Mx09qRZ7zScS+cAnA1i
bmKlZDVM38Y3Sm2P3lQhFsvP
=GQ4i
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From ulf at fitug.de  Thu Sep 25 11:52:54 1997
From: ulf at fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:52:54 +0800
Subject: Lucky in the news
Message-ID: 



Der kalifornische Cypherpunk Lucky Green is in the news.

Today's issue of the German newspaper "Die Tageszeitung" has a lengthy
article about PGP 5.

  http://www.taz.de/~taz/970925.taz/is_T970925.136.html






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 11:57:19 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:57:19 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970925110022.031567f4@dnai.com>
Message-ID: 



Lizard, you're missing the point. 

First, the NETcenter was sold to the Commerce cmte yesterday as a way to
perform successful cryptanalysis on enciphered documents. The rhetoric was
all about keeping codebreakers up to date with codemakers. To anyone with
a glimmering of a clue about modern cryptography, this is complete
bullshit. Industry lobbyists on Monday also tried to push this line at a
press conference; I called them on it and they said, no, I was wrong, this
center would let the FBI keep up with the times. Yeah right.

Second, the NSA already performs these duties. Whether they should be
allowed to or not is a different argument. 

Third, there's no funding appropriated for the NETcenter. It's useless
without it. Again, it's bullshit.

Fourth, even industry lobbyists admitted to me privately yesterday that
NETcenter was a scam designed entirely to head off Oxley.

-Declan


On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Lizard wrote: 


> At 10:33 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >Once the NETCenter failed to decypt the first several dozen 
> instances of
> >PGP or 3DES thrust before it, I rather expect enthusiasm will wane.
> 
> But it doesn't have to decrypt it. It has to tell the cops:
> "OK, you need to send a guy in there when he's not home and look for 
> a file called 'mykey.gkr' on his computer...it will probably be in 
> c:\pgp. Then you need to plant a video camera to watch him type his 
> passphrase. Then we can read his mail, no sweat."
> 
> I don't know why I keep making this point, but the weak point in 
> crypto is NOT the length of the key, it's the human factor. Go after 
> the HUMAN USING THE CRYPTO via traditional spy/police methods, and 
> smeg the key length.
> 
> But to do that, you see, you'll need warrents, reasons for 
> suspiscion, and, becuase of the effort involved, you'll only do it 
> for serious crimes with a strong liklihood of conviction. *That* is 
> the 'stauts quo' law enforcement *claims* to want.








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 12:04:48 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:04:48 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925114453.006feb60@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:29 AM 09/25/1997 -0400, Declan McCullagh  wrote:
>Lucky has it right. SAFE is extremely unlikely to go to the floor without
>additional "compromise."

I thought the compromise wording was fairly well-defined
	Congress shall make Only A Few laws abridging freedom of speech,
	or of the press, or....


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com  Thu Sep 25 12:06:08 1997
From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:06:08 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709251936.PAA09585@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>



Declan McCullagh writes:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:06:33 -0600
> From: Aaron Weissman 
> To: "'fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu'" 
> Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea

> The NETCenter is a great idea.
[blah blah]

> The passage of this amendment helps ensure that 
> the terms of this debate remain centered on our 
> civil liberties -- not kiddie porn.  If we are 
> going to win this argument (and the stakes are 
> very large) we have to keep this debate framed 
> with our criteria.

Follow your own advice.  All this crap about NETCenter has nothing 
to do with our civil liberties.  Whether NETCenter is a good idea or 
not is a completely separable issue (which I see Tim May just covered
thoroughly), and is merely a fig leaf offered to spineless
Congresscritters to deflect some of the "criticism" they might
otherwise be subjected to on the law enforcement "issue".  The fact
that White offers it shows that he is just as spineless.

We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing, 
or provide cover for them either.

As you say, though, let's keep this debate framed with our criteria:
Do you, Congressman, support the constitutional guarantee of free
speech, or not?






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 12:06:12 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:06:12 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970924223100.03601a28@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925101645.006f6580@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 08:27 PM 09/24/1997 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 7:31 PM -0700 9/24/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>>In Georgia the presence of a beeper is synonymous with drug sales.  At
>>least with law enforcement agencies.  Probationers and parolees are not
>
>In Silicon Valley, the presence of a beeper is synomynous with one being a
>technician or someone similar.  To keep the furnaces running, or whatever.

Beepers are also universal with sales people, partly because
cell phones don't have enough battery life; the new PCS phones that
combine the two capabilities may change this.
Computer dealer; drug dealer; - the latter knews what he's selling...

These days, beepers are being marketed for school kids,
partly so the parents can reach them but also so friends can.
Works fine in yuppie-spawn schools, yet inner-city schools consider
beepers to be evil and ban them.


>It appears we live on different planets. Further evidence that not only
>should we allow Georgia secede, we should kick them out.
>
>All the more reason for the Bill of Rights to be scrupulously adhered to.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 25 12:09:11 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:09:11 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:07 pm -0400 on 9/25/97, Aaron Weissman  wrote:


> The NETCenter

What an oxy-maroon. What a self-referent -- not to mention
self-congratulary -- canard.

C'mon, folks.

Any entity which has the unmitigated presumption to have "center" and "net"
in its name demonstrates nothing less than total ignorance of
microcomputers and Moore's law, much less the internet it hopes to be the
"center" of -- no matter how small a piece of the net it hopes to be the
"center" of...

Sheesh. GAK, indeed...

Reality is not optional. Trying to find the "center" of any piece of the
net is equivalent to the cosmological "problem" of finding the "center" of
the universe.

It represents the utter fallacy of hierarchy in a geodesic age.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

Hettinga's Corolary to Gilmore's Law: The net will see "centers" as damage,
and route around them.


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From hua at chromatic.com  Thu Sep 25 12:32:20 1997
From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:32:20 +0800
Subject: Why the WHite amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709251918.MAA25597@ohio.chromatic.com>



Oops ... this may appear twice due to a mail hiccup.

 To: aweissman at mocc.com
 Subject: Re: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
 Cc: cypherpunks at algrebra.com
 
 > From: Aaron Weissman 
 >
 > The NETCenter is a great idea.  Very few of us would argue that our
 > society has an interest defining rules and in prosecuting their
 > transgression as crimes.  Once we have agreed on that point, the
 > issue changes to a (still very important) discussion on methods.
 
 I believe MOST people would agree with this statement.
 
 I must point out, however, that your next statement does not logically
 follow because the primary complaint of the NSA/FBI is that unless the
 work factor is artificially reduced (via some method) to some
 negligible point, their jobs in the future will become much harder
 (that is, if all they do is stick with the same ol' operational
 methods) per intercept.  In fact, they are claiming that "much harder"
 could mean "practically impossible".
 
 > creating a decryption lab (and funding it with tremendous amounts of
 > money), our society will fulfill the basic obligation to protect
 > against the transgression of our rules.
 
 I am ignoring the comments on protecting the US citizens against abuse
 of this lab.  I seriously doubt they could abuse significant numbers
 of individuals given free market development of encryption.  If there
 was only one standard (say, DES), then there would only be one target.
 If there were 100 standards and 1000 data formats each, you can pretty
 much kiss this lab good bye.  It is much more likely that this lab
 will engage in breaking incompetent criminal-use cryptography.  It is
 unlikely that this lab can engage in the sort of mass data sweeps that
 NSA has been priviledged enough to do in the past.
 
 This sudden drop in capabilities and sudden jump in cost per intercept
 will enforce the status quo which the FBI has had to deal with to
 today.  The cost per intercept has been estimated at $50K per domestic
 target.  This is expensive enough that it does not make sense to tap
 anyone except where the cost can really be justified.
 
 > I have no doubt that a considerable portion of the NETCenter's time
 > will be spent in matters of foreign intelligence.  (As I said, we
 > cannot afford two massive decryption laboratories -- the NSA will
 > have to give its decryption mandate to this new agency).
 
 I completely disagree here.  You might be right, but I give you 1
 million to 1 odds.  The NSA is absolutely NOT about to give up its
 role as the numero uno decryption lab without sacrificing many
 politicians (possibly with their lives, too, as its accountability to
 the public is near non-existent).
 
 The NSA is politically impossible to take on for very obvious reasons.
 
 > In other words, this is a great tool for prosecutors to use *after*
 > they have established probable cause in their most heinous cases,
 > and a strong guarantee that the eyes of the government will not
 > intrude into our persons, papers and effects.
 
 The astronomical cost per decryption and the lack of a guarantee that
 it might necessarily produce useful evidence will guarantee that this
 tool is not abused.  I agree with this kind of conclusion.
 
 That is, I believe that, if any side of this debate is to be
 guaranteed anything, it should be that abuse is guaranteed to be low,
 rather than LE access is guaranteed to be easy.
 
 > The passage of this amendment helps ensure that the terms of this
 > debate remain centered on our civil liberties -- not kiddie porn.
 
 I assure you that this debate will always be shifted toward the
 "suitcase nuke", kiddie porn, child molestor and drug dealers by the
 FBI and the NSA in secret briefings.  There is not a chance in hell
 they will give up the best PR tool they have to scare the legislators,
 judges and the president without anyone present to counter their
 arguments.
 
 Ern






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 12:36:58 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:36:58 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: 





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
From: "David C. Treibs" 
To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid at ktc.com)>
Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems

                                        David C. Treibs
                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
                                        sirdavid at ktc.com

Hi.

We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.

For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
claiming legitimate dependents.

IRS accepted the information we sent them, and accepted our exemptions.

This year we again sent IRS our return without numbers for our children,
but this time we included the letter of acceptance for last year's
return, and again they said they are disallowing our exemptions, and
they want $1,175.79. I called the telephone number on the letter and
spoke with the lady who answered, explaining what we did last year and
how the IRS accepted our tax return. The lady said "now we have new
rules." She asked, "What religion are you," as if it mattered. When I
told her we were Christians, she paused as though to consult some
paperwork, and then she said, "those children need social security
numbers or you cannot claim them." She mentioned the Tax Reform Act of
1996 and Publication 553 as being the enabling documents that brought on
this change.

That same day I called U.S. Rep. Lamar Smith's office and explained the
situation. The nice lady in the San Antonio office said she would pass
the information to the Kerrville office, and they would do what they
could. The lady in the Kerrville office made several inquiries. She
repeatedly said we had the right to appeal, and she sent us a copy of:

--Internal Revenue Code: Income, Estate, Gift, Employment and Excise
Taxes ss 1001-End As of Sept 15, 1996, Volume 2. Subtitle F, Ch. 61B,
Sec 6109(a)-6109(h).

    Sec. 6109(e)--Repealed
    Is the rather odd heading for the only part I could find in the
    portion of the Code they sent me that says you must have a SSN or
    you will not be allowed an exemption. I wonder if that means the
    section is repealed? But then, the probably have it in some other
    section that the SSN is required. See IRC Sec. 151 (97) below.

--What appears to be a news release titled:
Valid Taxpayer Identification Numbers Needed For Returns
1996 IRB LEXIS 344; IR-96-50

--Internal Revenue Code...This section is current through 105-15,
approved 5/15/97.
Subtitle A. Income Taxes
Chapter 1. Normal Taxes and Surtaxes
Subchapter B. Computation of Taxable Income
Part V. Deductions for Personal Exemptions

    IRC Sec. 151 (1997)

    (e) says no exemption will be allowed unless the Taxpayer
    Identification Number is included on the return.

At present we are awaiting a letter from IRS, which we assume will state
that we must either provide SSNs for our children or pay up, and they
will probably give us 60 days or less to do either.

Having received the above distressing information, we called a San
Antonio, Texas, CPA, Ken Flint, a former IRS agent who now specializes
in helping people in trouble with the IRS. He said it would cost us more
to fight them than to simply pay the extra money. He sounded
sympathetic, if somewhat busy, and told us we could do the appeal if we
knew the law and IRS procedures. Unfortunately, I know neither.

Perhaps at this stage you could help us. I need to hear from someone who
has successfully appealed this sort of thing and won.

What are the applicable laws?
What is the case law in this matter?
What are the IRS procedures in these matters?

Are there any laws that might give us an out, such as the Religious
Rights Restoration Act, and other such high sounding laws?

Is there an attorney out there who wants to make a precedent out of this
for us and all the other like-minded folks?

If you have no direct knowledge of IRS laws and procedures, perhaps you
could pass this to a forum or organization or individual who could.

While we are aware of the various movements such as the sovereign
citizen, the patriots, tax protesters, and so on, we prefer to work
within the system to win our case. This is simply our preference.

We don't have a problem with proving that we are not making bogus claims
on our tax returns. We'd be happy to give them whatever reasonable proof
they want. We do have a big problem with giving our children a
government number.

The Bible gives the responsibility of raising children to parents, not
to the government or any other entity.

Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
of parents' God-given responsibility.

The SSN's powers can be divided into two basic categories: monitoring
and control; neither of which is within government's purview in dealing
with children. These are entirely the parents' job, Hillary Clinton's
postulations that "It Takes a Village" notwithstanding.

Once a child has a SSN, they are forever a blip on the government radar,
to be tracked, and to be the recipient of whatever government decides it
must foist upon children and their families.

SSN's are already used in our public school district to track students.
Much of their test scores and who knows what personal data is in the
district's computers, including a SSN. The district told us it probably
won't be long before all this data is sent to the state, and how long
will it be before this information ends up with the federal government?

The Clintons are working to push us into nationalized health care,
including government health care for children. Did you ever wonder how
they plan to track all these children, to ensure they are receiving all
the "benefits" of their plans? Very likely, the SSN. The "benefits"
might include "inoculations" against pregnancy, which amounts to
powerful birth control/abortifacient drugs, parental consent not needed
or desired. Then, of course, there is the "education,"
accompanying this government intrusion into child health, which is
irreconcilably opposed to my beliefs.

The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the Child
Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.

Once every child has a SSN, it will also be easier for the state to
nose in on the parent's job. With the recent birth of our fourth child,
we were told that a state social worker from the welfare department
would be visiting our home, and the home of everyone who has a child. If
our child had a SSN, they could easily computerize all her data and then
link it to any other data from us, our other children, and so on. It
could be done without SSNs, but it would be more difficult and time
consuming, and on a large scale, next to impossible.

The state of Texas provides a good example of what a state will do when
given access to the power of the SSN. Starting this year Texas requires
SSNs to issue a driver's license. Now that they have linked the
driver's license with a SSN, they can easily access a person's records,
including court records, and anyone not paying child support may be
denied a driver's license. This is just one example of the power of the
SSN, and how government can use it to force its agenda on the populace.

Whatever government grants or allows, it can withhold or restrict based
on whatever is politically correct at the time, if they have the tools
to do so. When people who disagree with you hold power over you, and
when they want to extend that power to your children, you better be
ready for trouble.

The SSN enables anyone with access to the right data bases to know every
address you ever had; details about your job, income, and taxes; school
records; all financial transactions not made with greenbacks; probably
all your telephone and utility details, including all your phone calls;
doctor, hospital, and other medical details; all court and police
records; and on and on and endlessly on.

This is all your personal information, available to government at the
snap of a finger, and this information is power. Now imagine if every
child has a SSN, that power will extend down to the womb even more than
it does now.

We are not willing to give the government power over our children. Why
should we, when children are none of government's business until they
reach adulthood? Why tempt government with all that power, when they
have already proven they will abuse it?


                   For Liberty,
                   David C. Treibs (sirdavid at ktc.com)







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 25 12:55:22 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:55:22 +0800
Subject: Crypto-victory in Commerce; Oxley talks about nuking Congress
Message-ID: <199709251939.VAA15400@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 6:37 PM -0700 9/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>least if you've heard it 17 times in the past few weeks. So
>>today Rep. Oxley whipped out his trump card: if you don't
>>vote for my amendment, you'll get blown up! "How about some
>>terrorist orgainztion acting with impunity because they
>>have the ability to communicate with impunity gets a hold
>>of a Russian nuclear device and threatens to blow up the
>>Capitol of the United States?"
>
>Sounds to me like Oxley is presaging the Reichstag Fire.

Or another Lusitania.  The German government during World War I had a
policy of sinking any ship carrying armaments to Britain.  While the
Lusitania was a civilian ship, the allies were secretly loading it
with ammunition.  This was known to the German government which
announced that it would attempt to sink the ship.  This was advertised
in New York newspapers by the German embassy in the weeks before the
Lusitania's departure.

The German torpedo appears to have set off the munitions in the hold
which caused the ship to sink more quickly, magnifying the loss of
life.  Ironically, while the allies were responsible for using the
civilians on board as shields, the Germans were held responsible for
the deaths.  This was used as a propaganda tool to persuade the
American people that the country should enter World War I.

By an odd coincidence, Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill worked
together on the Lusitania project, foreshadowing their later work
together.

Many U.S. wars have started with similar incidents.  The
Spanish-American War started when a U.S. naval ship (The Maine) blew
up in Havana harbor.  Curiously, no officers were on board at the time.

Some suspect Pearl Harbor was managed to maximize the shock of the
American people.  There was also an incident in the North Atlantic
with a German ship which was used to justify U.S. involvement in the
European war.

And let's not forget the Gulf of Tonkin incident which prompted the
Congress to grant the President sweeping powers.

The only real question is whether the stakes are high enough at this
time to justify some sort of provocative incident.  It seems
reasonable that the bureacracies of Russia and the United States would
recognize their common interest against the people of both countries
and the whole world.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From lizard at dnai.com  Thu Sep 25 12:55:29 1997
From: lizard at dnai.com (Lizard)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:55:29 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925123121.03161ac8@dnai.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 03:36 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Jeff Barber wrote:
>We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing, 

I can't think of any other way. Each congressman has one 
concern:Getting re-elected. Thus, they frame each decision in terms 
of:"How will this sound in a 30 second TV commercial aimed at the 
clueless clods who live in my district/state?" and "Could this be 
exploited by my opponent in a similair commercial?" In order to 
convince a congresscritter to do what you want, you have to put it 
into those terms.

Forget the rule of law, the Constitution, ideals, principles, values -
- - those things are *meaningless* when discussing the making of law in 
this -- or any other --  nation.
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From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 25 13:04:58 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 04:04:58 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>



off.

Without the export restrictions we would see much more crypto sold
and used inside the US.  I'll bet there are lots of cypherpunks who
are holding off releasing crypto tools because of these laws.  Look
at the guy who said he had to go to Canada to release his crypto.
And he had to stop thinking about it when he was in the US.  This
is crazy.

Yes, it is stupid to have a law that using crypto makes a crime worse.
But this is not that bad compared to some laws.  It won't affect most
people.  With the export restrictions gone, the green light will be
given to make crypto available everywhere.  Every data transmission
will be encrypted, and people will be protected.

It might even be that the criminal part will be shut down by the
courts.  Once crypto is everywhere, it will be impossible to do
anything without using crypto.  The law would then be like a law
which said that breathing air while committing a crime will be
illegal.  I'm sure the lawyers could come up with a reason why this
kind of a law will be unconstitutional.

At this point the SAFE law looks like a good one.  Everyone said that
there was no way to stop the FBI from putting in the restrictions,
but they were stopped.  Now everyone says there is no way to get a
good bill out of the Senate, or past the president.  People are
missing one point.  We are right.  Stopping people from using crypto
is completely the opposite of the basic principles of this country.

Look at all the groups which came out against the amendment to SAFE.
The ACLU, the religious right, the NRA (how often do you see them
working together?).  Business executives, law professors, technical
experts.  If this coalition can hang together and support the bill
in its current form, the SAFE law still has a chance at success.
Probably not this year because there is not time, but next year they
should try again.  Getting rid of these export restrictions would
produce an explosion of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a
big win.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 25 14:12:30 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:12:30 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:00 pm -0400 on 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
> numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Move to Saipan (US Territory, Northern Mariana Islands)?
I don't know why I think so, but I think that residents don't have to file
tax returns.

Nope. Now that I think about it, as a US citizen, you're liable for income
taxes no matter where you are in the world. As we've said here before on
cypherpunks, the only other country in the world where this is the case is
the post-Marcos Phillipenes.

Or maybe Puerto Rico, I seem to remember they had special tax status.
(Nawww. They're more statist than we are, even if they're nominally
independant.)

Of course, all this points up what Tim has said here all along, Duncan's
esteemed financial creativity aside. If you're an American, you can run,
but you can't hide.

Pray the Y2K problem (or maybe digital transaction settlement) kills the
IRS, I suppose...

All of which makes me think that the US is Athens of the modern world.
Delian League and all.

Though I shudder to think who the Spartans are going to be. Unless they're
us, I guess. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From 100736.3602 at compuserve.com  Thu Sep 25 14:14:02 1997
From: 100736.3602 at compuserve.com (K. N. Cukier)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:14:02 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709251628_MC2-21D3-9A59@compuserve.com>




Declan McCullagh forwarded the message by...
>From: Robert Hettinga  -- who wrote:

>> The NETCenter
>
>What an oxy-maroon. What a self-referent -- not to mention
>self-congratulary -- canard. [...]
>
>Any entity which has the unmitigated presumption to have "center" and
"net"
>in its name demonstrates nothing less than total ignorance  [...]
>
>Reality is not optional. Trying to find the "center" of any piece of the
>net is equivalent to the cosmological "problem" of finding the "center" of
>the universe.
>
>It represents the utter fallacy of hierarchy in a geodesic age.

I take your point insofar as "NETCenter" and crypto, but you repeat a
common misperception. Although the Net is tough to control, and it is a
distributed system of networks, there are -- of course -- a number of
centralized process. The Domain Name System is completely hierarchical.
Moreover, Jon Postel of IANA represents the Net's central authority due to:
1. the IP number allocations, 2. the DNS "root", and 3. the technical
standards, such as port numbers, etc. Unless there was a certain degree of
centralized control, in an engineering perspective, the Net "Would Not
Work." That's the fact, Jack -- n'est-ce pas? Yes, it is *possible* to do
away with these centralized functions, and this is happening now, in a very
non-public way.

-- KNC






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Sep 25 14:37:21 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:37:21 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709252109.WAA02721@server.test.net>




John Smith  writes:
> Getting rid of these export restrictions would produce an explosion
> of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a big win.

I disagree.

Cypherpunk (freeware) crypto isn't hardly hindered at all by EAR
export nonsense.  

You reference Ian Goldberg claiming to have to work on crypto during
trips to Canada.  I think he was just trying to make a political
point.  I submit that he could write and publish all the crypto he
wants in the US (on one of those "export controlled" sites).  It will
get illegally exported in no time at all.  Where's the problem?

William Geiger has PGP on a non-export controlled site, and the export
bods haven't said a word, so it's not even clear that they care about
freeware at this point.

The problem with export controls is for commercial software.
Companies get denied export permission.  Overseas companies probably
wouldn't feel comfortable using non-paid for commercial warez.

Illegally exported commercial crypto warez isn't generally hosted on
ftp/web sites outside the US.  I suspect this has much more to do with
the fact that it is copyrighted, than to do with export regulations.

Netscape, and MSIE browsers are available on web sites, but these are
distributed freely anyway.


Also your claim that the FBI is defeated, and that safe is a good
idea.  Disagree also.

1) SAFE has lots more hurdles to pass before it gets to be law.

2) If it does get to be law, you won't like the modifications that are
made to it by that stage.

3) Crypto-in-a-crime US domestic restrictions are a _bad thing_.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <27735.875222424@zelkova.qualcomm.com>



We also did not provide our children's SSNs for the last few years.  We
obtained and supplied them rather than fight the IRS.  In the Social
Security Number FAQ 
is this section:

Registering your Children

The Family Support Act of 1988 (Pub. L. 100-485) requires states to require
parents to give their Social Security Numbers in order to get a birth
certificate issued for a newborn. The law allows the requirement to be
waived for "good cause", but there's no indication of what may qualify.

Section 1615 of the Small Business Job Protection Act of 1996 strengthened
the requirement for taxpayers to report SSNs for dependents over one year
of age when they are claimed as a deduction. ( H.R.3448
, became PL104-188
8/20/96.) The new law allows the IRS to treat listing a dependent without
including an SSN as if it were an arithmetic error. This apparently means
that the taxpayer isn't allowed to petition the tax court.

/pbp






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 25 14:44:32 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:44:32 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 12:32 PM -0700 9/25/97, J. Random Hotmail User wrote:

>Without the export restrictions we would see much more crypto sold
>and used inside the US.  I'll bet there are lots of cypherpunks who
>are holding off releasing crypto tools because of these laws.  Look
>at the guy who said he had to go to Canada to release his crypto.
>And he had to stop thinking about it when he was in the US.  This
>is crazy.

Yes, it's crazy, but SAFE doesn't fix this in any meaningful way.

We can ask Ian Goldberg, the guy you refer to, if the enactment of SAFE
would cause him to develop software in the U.S. Remember, SAFE does not
give carte blanche to crypto exports. Rather, it speaks of whether or not
similar products already can be found elsewhere (thus indicating export
review will happen, with all that that implies) and it further gives
authority to deny exports if "substantial evidence" exists that the product
is or could be used by the Bad Guys for Evil Puposes. (Cf. the full text of
H.R. 695 at http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/hr695_text.html, and
remember that amendments are being added to it.)

This latter authority to block exports suggests NSA/State vetting of all
exports. Meaning, things really haven't changed.

All it would take is a letter stating that there is "substantial evidence"
that Ian's product may be "diverted" for use by those the U.S. doesn't
like.

Well, duh, we're where we are today on exports.

So, will Ian, or C2Net, or others, launch software development here and
just sort of hope that when the time comes to apply for an export license
that the conditions above are met? First, that the BXA/NSA/etc. rules that
similar products are already available. Second, that the product will not
be used by Hamas, a group the U.S. calls a terrorist group, or the Cali
Cartel, or the Irish Republican Army, or the armies of Iraq? Think about
it, given that Hamas is already using PGP 5.0 to fight the Zionist
occupiers in Palestine.

Would PGP 5.0 receive an export license? Even under SAFE?

Would a product designed to implement Chaumian untraceable cash, a la some
of the work on Lucre and the like, receive export approval? Even under SAFE?


>Yes, it is stupid to have a law that using crypto makes a crime worse.
>But this is not that bad compared to some laws.  It won't affect most
>people.  With the export restrictions gone, the green light will be
>given to make crypto available everywhere.  Every data transmission
>will be encrypted, and people will be protected.

J. Random Hotmail User, you'd better learn to read the text of the bills
you so blithely think are OK.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep 25 14:54:40 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:54:40 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

David C. Treibs writes via Declan McCullagh:
>The Bible gives the responsibility of raising children to parents, not
>to the government or any other entity.
>
>Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
>of parents' God-given responsibility.

While I am generally sympathetic with Mr. Treibs, it does not seem
reasonable to ask for a government child subsidy while claiming the
government has no business raising kids.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 25 15:18:40 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:18:40 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

According to Raph's remailer stats, the remailers have widely varying
latencies.  Given that only a few remailers have latencies which are
acceptably low, the list of usable remailers is quite low.

If the user of the remailer, Monty Cantsin for example, signs his
messages, a fairly accurate measure of total transit time is obtained.
The total transit time gives clues to the remailers which were
actually used in the chain.  In an of itself, this may not comprise
the user, but combined with other weaknesses it will cause the
attacker to be significantly more confident of identification
hypotheses.

The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
software?

If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=QjE1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From aweissman at mocc.com  Thu Sep 25 15:20:09 1997
From: aweissman at mocc.com (Aaron Weissman)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:20:09 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.8B78F1E0.aweissman@mocc.com>



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 12:00 PM, Lizard [SMTP:lizard at dnai.com] 
wrote:
> But to do that, you see, you'll need warrents, reasons for
> suspiscion, and, becuase of the effort involved, you'll only do it
> for serious crimes with a strong liklihood of conviction. *That* is
> the 'stauts quo' law enforcement *claims* to want.

and the technical realities of encryption, plus the limitations of any 
"NETCenter," will force a respect for, or at least compliance with, the 4th 
amendment.  Hooray!

Aaron






From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 25 15:21:53 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:21:53 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>



>From: Adam Back 
>John Smith  writes:
>> Getting rid of these export restrictions would produce an explosion
>> of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a big win.
>
>I disagree.
>
>Cypherpunk (freeware) crypto isn't hardly hindered at all by EAR
>export nonsense.  
>
>You reference Ian Goldberg claiming to have to work on crypto during
>trips to Canada.  I think he was just trying to make a political
>point.  I submit that he could write and publish all the crypto he
>wants in the US (on one of those "export controlled" sites).  It will
>get illegally exported in no time at all.  Where's the problem?

That's easy for you to say, there in England.  You don't have these
export controls, right?  How can you say what Ian Goldberg should
do.  I think he was not just making a political point.  From what he
said, he really does not release crypto from inside the US.  Only
when he goes to Canada, which isn't that often.  I'll bet he could
be releasing 3x more crypto if we didn't have the export laws.
Is he on this list?  Let's hear what he has to say.

>William Geiger has PGP on a non-export controlled site, and the export
>bods haven't said a word, so it's not even clear that they care about
>freeware at this point.

PGP is a special case because it is already out there everywhere.
Still the example of Phil Zimmerman is a good one.  Even though he
got away with it eventually, they showed how they can make your life
hard.  Probably the only reason he didn't get charged was because
they couldn't prove anything.  Not many people are going to be
willing to take that chance.  William Geiger and a few others may
be exceptions, but most people won't openly break a law which has
strong penalties like this.

There is nothing to stop te authorities from prosecuting William
Geiger and even threatening him with jail.  There is no
guarantee that he will become another Zimmerman and get all kinds
of donations and support.  A lot of hackers thought they'd be heros
but ended up doing time.  Read that letter from Jim Bell if you want
to see how different things look once the government comes down on
you.

>Also your claim that the FBI is defeated, and that safe is a good
>idea.  Disagree also.
>
>1) SAFE has lots more hurdles to pass before it gets to be law.

Yes, I said that.  It probably won't go anywhere this term.  The
big question will be what happens next year.

But after all the opposition which came out, from practically every
interest group there is, I am sure that there is no way domestic
controls on crypto are going to pass.  Even with the CDA there was
not this much united opposition.  Car companies and phone companies
didn't fight the CDA.  Religious right didn't fight the CDA.  CDA
passed, remember?  FBI's bill did not.  And all the opposition
came together in a few days.  Nobody was ready for this.  Next year
there will be more time to organize, and the opposition should be
even stronger.

>2) If it does get to be law, you won't like the modifications that are
>made to it by that stage.

That depends.  The law may still be good.  Who cares about this
crypto center.  That's just another boondoggle.  The main thing is
getting the export laws changed.

>3) Crypto-in-a-crime US domestic restrictions are a _bad thing

Stupid, yes, but not that big a deal.  Everyone will have crypto
so every crime will use it.  Wouldn't it be better to have a world
where every phone was encrypted?  So what if they add crypto-in-a-
crime to every crime where somebody used a phone to plan it.  It's
not like people aren't going to use phones, or they're going to
turn off the crypto.  It really won't have any effect on anybody,
except maybe make some prison terms longer.  That's not my issue,
how long prison terms should be.  I want to be able to use crypto.

I hope this stupid mailer doesn't chop off my message again.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From cme at cybercash.com  Thu Sep 25 15:24:26 1997
From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:24:26 +0800
Subject: Emphasizing a point by Donald Eastlake re key recovery
In-Reply-To: <199709251409.KAA00832@callandor.cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925174308.03286100@cybercash.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:25 AM 9/25/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Well, I dunno. About 18 months ago, I was involved with the 
>negotiations over the exportability of an SSL equipped web
>server I had helped develop. The export model used 40 bit RC4
>and 512 bit keys. The initial version used 3DES to encrypt 
>stored private keys, and this was turned down. I modified it to
>use single DES, and it passed.
>
>Note that this was for secret key storage only.

This should be listed as yet another outrage of the current system -- 
perhaps reason to start another lawsuit.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme at cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+






From aweissman at mocc.com  Thu Sep 25 15:26:39 1997
From: aweissman at mocc.com (Aaron Weissman)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:26:39 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea #2
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.89151140.aweissman@mocc.com>



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 11:34 AM, Tim May [SMTP:tcmay at got.net] 
wrote:
> Though we as technical people are usually cautious to say that
> "unbreakable" is a dangerous word, the fact is that it's our current best
> description of what a 2000-bit RSA key is, and that's all there is to it.

I don't dispute you -- in the slightest -- that a brute force attack 
against a 2000-bit RSA key is functionally impossible today.  However, I 
don't think that a brute force attack is the most likely for a functional 
law enforcement (or national security) crypto lab.  Unless you think that 
today's algorithms and conventional random number generators are perfect 
...

Aaron 






From shabbir at panix.com  Thu Sep 25 15:26:50 1997
From: shabbir at panix.com (Shabbir J. Safdar)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:26:50 +0800
Subject: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
Message-ID: <199709252156.RAA00518@panix3.panix.com>



Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in place at
http://www.crypto.com/member/

Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about, either by zip code
or by state, and you can see how they voted in the three Commerce votes
last night.  Then, you can call and yell or send kudos.

If you're a part of the Adopt Your Legislator program, you'll be receiving
a custom-tailored alert soon with all this information.

-Shabbir






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 15:27:15 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:27:15 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:06 -0700 9/25/97, Brock N. Meeks wrote, quoting me:
>> Underlying all this is the threat of a presidential veto. What pro-crypto
>> legislation can survive it? That will give the FBI/NSA more leverage when
>> pushing for their kind of "compromise." Especially because of the slothful
>> speed of the Senate, the process will take close to a year, probably.
>
>Yeah, well, except that there isn't a year left for this Congress.  If it
>doesn't get done before the next recess (in which we don't see Congress
>again until it becomes teh 106th, next year) the slate is wiped clean and
>we start from ground zero.

That's not right. The 106th Congress doesn't begin until January //1999//,
after the elections. The slate is not wiped clean in 1998; we don't start
from ground zero. Bills will carry over to next year when Congress returns
in January for the second session of the 105th.

That's why it may take close to a year -- perhaps until next summer -- for
Congress to finish compromising away your rights to use whatever encryption
software you like.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From aweissman at mocc.com  Thu Sep 25 15:33:18 1997
From: aweissman at mocc.com (Aaron Weissman)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:33:18 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.8D7FBE60.aweissman@mocc.com>



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 1:37 PM, Jeff Barber 
[SMTP:jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com] wrote:
> We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing,
> or provide cover for them either.

Ultimately, we are not going to "trick" them.  Congress has tools, like 
CRS, that ensure that they (usually) have good information before a bill is 
sent to the President.

However, why shouldn't we provide cover for them?  You can be sure that 
Oxley, McCain, Kerrey, etc. will receive "cover" from the FBI and Law 
Enforcement.  You can be sure that they will receive endorsements from all 
of the right "fraternal brotherhood of police whatever" organizations come 
election time.

If a Member of Congress wants to support civil rights, I think that we 
*should* provide as much support and "cover" as possible.  It's hard enough 
to publically support civil rights and free speech in today's media 
climate.

We won yesterday because the Committee found a solution that gave them 
cover and allowed all parties to declare victory.  I find that to be a very 
good thing.

Aaron






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 25 15:33:24 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:33:24 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709251628_MC2-21D3-9A59@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: 



At 4:24 pm -0400 on 9/25/97, K. N. Cukier wrote:

>The Domain Name System is completely hierarchical.

Wrong example. And not for long. Wanna bet a buck that that it isn't in,
say, 3 years?

> Moreover, Jon Postel of IANA represents the Net's central authority due to:

Postel isn't exactly a good example of this, either. He's made himself in
charge of controlling the uncontrollable, after all. This kind of "great
man theory of the internet" is quaintly romantic, yes? It's certainly just
as industrial as romanticism was...

> 1. the IP number allocations,

Bogosity alert. IPV6. Even the latest tweaks to IPV4, fer chrissakes...

False "scarcity". And so your next straw man is? Ah. Here it is.

> 2. the DNS "root", and

Which, technically, doesn't have to be "owned" by anyone to stay
maintained. All you need is an agreement by the TLD holders, which you'll
get, or they go out of business. Look, Ma, no central control. Feh. *How*
many permutations and combinations of 3 alphanumeric characters are there?
Um, do we *need* three-letter TLDs? I thought not...

Actually, I predict that the whole NSI sham will be a bad dream within,
say, two Moore's cycles, or 14 internet years, or 3 meatyears, which is, of
course, how I predicated my bet...

>3. the technical
> standards, such as port numbers, etc.

Technical standards and market reality are not mutually exclusive. :-).
There are lots of technically hierarchical things which are controlled by a
geodesic market. The NYSE, or, better, NASDAQ, or, even better, the entire
currency market, are great examples. Notice that each one of those is more
geodesic -- and much bigger -- than the next one.

What? The Internet? Oh. That's right. I forget the IETF... ;-).

Sheesh...

So far, the stuff you've thrown out here to "refute" what I said are the
exceptions which prove the rule.

Face it. It's cheaper to be "out of control" than "in control". That's what
computers are for. Right?

I mean, the more computers you have, the more standards matter, and the
more standards you use, the less "control" you need. The less "control" you
need, the less centralization matters, which, if you'll recall briefly, was
my point.

> Unless there was a certain degree of
> centralized control, in an engineering perspective, the Net "Would Not
> Work."

Excuse me while I recover my composure. And clean up a bit. I laughed so
hard at that one, I blew rootbeer out my nose, all over my poor antiquated
PB180... Okay. It's clean now. And, so...

Look. By your above logic, Microsoft Network would have been a huge hit.
They would have bought AOL *and* Compuserve. Heck. We'd still be using
mainframes, or something. Centralized control went out with economies of
scale.

> That's the fact, Jack -- n'est-ce pas? Yes, it is *possible* to do
> away with these centralized functions, and this is happening now, in a very
> non-public way.

Oh? Like there's a secret cabal out there "managing" the massive
decentralization of everything from  steel to financial services to fast
food to government itself? Right.

Hate to break your bubble, Bunky, but all of this is the result of natural
forces. The market. (Yes, Virginia, the market.) If there wasn't a market
for, say, telephony in the 1920's, there wouldn't have been a market for
automated switching, which got us semiconductors, which got us your
precious IANA when the market for semiconductors created the internet.

And, boys and girls, the *only* reason we still have central control of the
internet is that internet was originally a socialist, hierarchically
organized entity created by another hierarchical entity called a nation
state.

Just like the the nation state itself, IANA, and all other central
"control" is surfacting away. Well, more like choking in it's own
excrement, but soap is a prettier metaphor than the latter...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga







-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From aweissman at mocc.com  Thu Sep 25 15:34:07 1997
From: aweissman at mocc.com (Aaron Weissman)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:34:07 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BCC9C9.86D2C260.aweissman@mocc.com>



On Thursday, September 25, 1997 11:34 AM, Tim May [SMTP:tcmay at got.net] 
wrote:
> The NETCenter is largely duplicative, though will be much less effective,
> than the NSA. I strongly urge Aaron and others to review the history and
> capabilities (and limitations) of the NSA.

Sure, it is duplicative.  However, for this thing to become law, I envision 
a rather dramatic shift in the organization of our intelligence 
institutions.  Or at least a change in some of the building names at Ft. 
Meade :)

> (The NSA sometimes assists with law enforcement. But often it does not. I
> grant that a purely civilian codebreaking facility might once have been
> needed. But for reasons I'll get to below, it's much too late to start 
now!
> And much too expensive.)

There is an exective order or presidential decision directive (pdd) from 
the mid-80's that formalizes a "relationship" between the NSA and FBI for 
law enforcement decryption.  However, I never was able to get my hands on 
it ...

Aaron






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 25 15:37:44 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:37:44 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea
Message-ID: <199709252215.AAA22660@basement.replay.com>



At 03:36 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Jeff Barber wrote:
>Follow your own advice.  All this crap about NETCenter has nothing 
>to do with our civil liberties.  Whether NETCenter is a good idea or 
>not is a completely separable issue (which I see Tim May just covered
>thoroughly), and is merely a fig leaf offered to spineless
>Congresscritters to deflect some of the "criticism" they might
>otherwise be subjected to on the law enforcement "issue".  The fact
>that White offers it shows that he is just as spineless.
>
>We shouldn't have to "trick" Congress into doing the right thing, 
>or provide cover for them either.

**BZZZT** WRONG ANSWER!

>As you say, though, let's keep this debate framed with our criteria:
>Do you, Congressman, support the constitutional guarantee of free
>speech, or not?

How loudly do we have to shout it?

**CONGRESS DOES NOT SUPPORT THE CONSTITUION.  PERIOD.**  

They prove it time and time again.  Recent example:  they wouldn't have
passed the CDA 94-6! if they were worried about the Constitution.

You call the congressvermin "spineless".  They do hate that label, and
voting "tough on crime, tough on drugs," is how they avoid it.  With
Lying Freeh telling them that evil Mexican drug lords use crypto to
outclever the FBI (true), and therefore a vote for GAKked crypto is a
vote that's tough on crime (false), they can't rush to vote "yea" fast
enough.  It doesn't matter if the vote doesn't make sense, or violates
the Constitution eight ways from Sunday, the vote is there only to 
provide the illusion to the voters:  "Hey, I'm TOUGH on CRIME."

You better learn that Congress is not there to support the Constitution.
Any part of it.  It's not in the part of their job description that gets
them reelected.  Constitutional issues do NOT attract voters.  Only SIX
senators voted against the Telecom Reform Act, the one that contained
the CDA.  My senator is one of them, and I know that he is a lame duck not
seeking re-election.  So, don't go dangling Constitutional challenges in
front of Congress.  There's not enough bait on that hook.

Fighting unemployment attracts voters.  Fighting crime attracts voters.
But they couldn't trample hard enough on our freedom of speech when the voters
heard about child porn on the net.  And now that evil Mexican drug lords use
encryption, well, I'll let you connect the last two dots.

We can't afford to simply frame the debate on Constitutional issues.  The
number of voters looking at them through that frame won't get them reelected.

Shame on us cowardly Americans.  (Yeah, _us_.  I'm hiding behind a remailer.)







From steve at xemacs.org  Thu Sep 25 15:38:46 1997
From: steve at xemacs.org (SL Baur)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:38:46 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Anonymous who signed himself as Monty Cantsin  writes:

> While I am generally sympathetic with Mr. Treibs, it does not seem
> reasonable to ask for a government child subsidy while claiming the
> government has no business raising kids.

Since when is a deduction on income tax (not a tax credit) a
`government child subsidy'?

It's not the government's money.






From jgrasty at gate.net  Thu Sep 25 16:00:34 1997
From: jgrasty at gate.net (Joey Grasty)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:00:34 +0800
Subject: Remailer latency
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925184245.006ef294@pop.gate.net>



At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.

Sure.  Send me $125 a month for a dedicated line, and I'll insure
that you get low latencies on winsock.

Regards,

--
Joey Grasty
jgrasty at gate.net
WinSock Remailer Operator (winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net)






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 16:05:57 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:05:57 +0800
Subject: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are dangerous
In-Reply-To: <19970925193213.21630.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



Tim writes below that SAFE doesn't get rid of export controls. That's true,
even before it's compromised to death. I've attached below my column on
SAFE I wrote in June...

This is just one reason why no new laws are better than bad new laws.

-Declan

***************

At 14:17 -0700 9/25/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 12:32 PM -0700 9/25/97, J. Random Hotmail User wrote:
>
>>Without the export restrictions we would see much more crypto sold
>>and used inside the US.  I'll bet there are lots of cypherpunks who
>>are holding off releasing crypto tools because of these laws.  Look
>>at the guy who said he had to go to Canada to release his crypto.
>>And he had to stop thinking about it when he was in the US.  This
>>is crazy.
>
>Yes, it's crazy, but SAFE doesn't fix this in any meaningful way.
>
>We can ask Ian Goldberg, the guy you refer to, if the enactment of SAFE
>would cause him to develop software in the U.S. Remember, SAFE does not
>give carte blanche to crypto exports. Rather, it speaks of whether or not
>similar products already can be found elsewhere (thus indicating export
>review will happen, with all that that implies) and it further gives
>authority to deny exports if "substantial evidence" exists that the product
>is or could be used by the Bad Guys for Evil Puposes. (Cf. the full text of
>H.R. 695 at http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/hr695_text.html, and
>remember that amendments are being added to it.)
>
>This latter authority to block exports suggests NSA/State vetting of all
>exports. Meaning, things really haven't changed.
>
>All it would take is a letter stating that there is "substantial evidence"
>that Ian's product may be "diverted" for use by those the U.S. doesn't
>like.
>
>Well, duh, we're where we are today on exports.
>
>So, will Ian, or C2Net, or others, launch software development here and
>just sort of hope that when the time comes to apply for an export license
>that the conditions above are met? First, that the BXA/NSA/etc. rules that
>similar products are already available. Second, that the product will not
>be used by Hamas, a group the U.S. calls a terrorist group, or the Cali
>Cartel, or the Irish Republican Army, or the armies of Iraq? Think about
>it, given that Hamas is already using PGP 5.0 to fight the Zionist
>occupiers in Palestine.
>
>Would PGP 5.0 receive an export license? Even under SAFE?
>
>Would a product designed to implement Chaumian untraceable cash, a la some
>of the work on Lucre and the like, receive export approval? Even under SAFE?


http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 5, 1997

Mr. Gates Goes to Washington
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)


                    For Siliconaires like Bill Gates of Microsoft, Eric
                    Schmidt of Novell and Jeff Papows of Lotus, Washington
                    is a city made pleasant by absence. They view its
                    labyrinthine bureaucracies and hidebound institutions as
                    something between a minor hindrance and an
                    insurmountable obstacle to the important business of
                    making profits, not public policy. So it was no surprise to
                    see the high-tech trio join seven other executives
yesterday
                    at the National Press Club to rail against the Clinton
                    administration's restrictions on overseas sales of
                    encryption products.

                         This Billionaire Boys' Club was especially keen on
                    praising two bills that would generally relax export rules.
                    "We clearly support the House and the Senate bills that are
                    on the Hill in their original form. Getting reform done now
                    is a huge priority for all of us," said one. "There are
bills
                    in the House and the Senate that are totally
acceptable, and
                    if those bills are passed they'd solve the problem,"
another
                    added.

                         But perhaps Bill Gates should have spent less time
                    writing BASIC interpreters and more time in civics
                    classes, because these bills are far from perfect. In fact,
                    they may be downright dangerous.

                         "Please, do no harm here. Let's keep what we won,"
                    says Cindy Cohn, one of the lawyers mounting an
                    EFF-sponsored court challenge to the White House's
                    export rules. So far that effort has been successful: A
                    federal judge ruled last December that the line-by-line
                    instructions in a computer program are "speech" and
                    restrictions on overseas shipments violate the First
                    Amendment.

                         Cohn argues that both Rep. Bob Goodlatte's (R-Va.)
                    SAFE bill and Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.) ProCODE
                    bill could do more harm than good. She says they might
                    not even help her client, a university professor who wants
                    to discuss encryption without going to jail. "What effect
                    would SAFE or ProCODE have? Either none or a
                    detrimental one," Cohn said on Monday at a conference
                    organized by the Electronic Privacy Information Center.
                    (A Burns spokesperson responded by saying any
                    problems could be addressed after the bill leaves the
                    Commerce Committee and moves to the Senate floor.)

                         This might seem like a lot of high-powered debate
                    over an obscure subject, but the argument boils down to a
                    conflict between pragmatism and principle. Will Congress
                    decide to help out Bill Gates at our expense? Sure,
                    removing export controls completely would benefit
                    everyone, but SAFE doesn't go that far: Only software
                    "that is generally available" overseas may be exported.
                    Which means if I invent a new data-scrambling method
                    that nobody overseas has developed, I'm screwed. SAFE
                    also creates a new federal felony if you use crypto in a
                    crime. Cypherpunks have criticized the measure, saying
                    that when crypto starts to appear in products from light
                    switches to doorknobs, Congress might as well put you in
                    jail if you breathe while committing a crime. Then there's
                    ProCODE, which sets up a new federal
                    crypto-bureaucracy -- hardly a reassuring thought.

[...]

                      some veteran Washington lawyers
                    warn that the proposals in Congress will not nullify the
                    export rules. "Because the language of the SAFE act
                    doesn't track the language of the executive order and the
                    [Commerce Department regulations], which of course they
                    couldn't anticipate, there's substantial wiggle room
left for
                    the government to maintain some controls. The bills may
                    not have the desired effect in the long run," says Roszel
                    Thomsen, a partner at the Thomsen and Burke law firm.

                         "There's room for someone to completely rewrite a
                    bill that starts from the provision that all source code is
                    speech -- then squarely roll back the most onerous
                    provisions from the administration's executive order last
                    November and track the current laws to eliminate the
                    wiggle room," Thomsen says. "But I don't think there's
                    the willpower to do that."

                         If that willpower doesn't exist, then perhaps
                    Congress shouldn't pass either SAFE or ProCODE. No
                    legislation is better than bad law, especially when court
                    challenges are moving forward -- and don't bring with
                    them nasty side effects. We shouldn't have to give up
                    some freedoms to gain others. If Congress doesn't have
                    the courage to do the right thing, it's better they do
nothing
                    -- even if Bill Gates prefers otherwise.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From russ at russ-smith.com  Thu Sep 25 16:12:45 1997
From: russ at russ-smith.com (russ smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:12:45 +0800
Subject: "Matchcode" technology sparks privacy flames.....
Message-ID: <01BCC9E0.E2258BE0.russ@russ-smith.com>



>Few things are more contradictory than calling in the government -- the
biggest known violator of privacy -- to "protect" privacy on the Internet. 
...

This is the kind of generalized hand-waving statement I am talking about. 
 If you are talking about the FBI or the IRS I would agree but I don't 
think the FTC is collecting personal information in order to violate 
privacy (although I think they give industry an unfair advantage when it 
comes to developing privacy rules).  I also don't think agencies like the 
National Endowment for Arts or the Park Service is doing this either.  I 
also think the government is #2 behind companies such as Experian and 
Metromail due the profit incentive.

As for going to agencies such as the FTC for assistance, I am looking for 
them to develop rules so I can protect my own privacy.  I do not expect 
them, nor do I think they are capable of, protecting my privacy (they 
cannot even develop their own privacy policy for their web site correctly). 
 I want to able to find out who has information about me and be able to (in 
some circumstances) stop the distribution of the information if I so desire 
and make it unprofitable for companies to violate such regulations.

Another example is the junk e-mail.  CEI says the FTC should be concerned 
with property rights and the 'rules of law' but then go on to indicate the 
FTC should not get involved in junk e-mail regulations.  I view the 
hundreds of spams I received as a violation of my property rights and I 
simply want to recover my expenses.

I went to a telecommunications deregulation seminar at CATO about 2 weeks 
ago and I found some the people there to use the same hand-waving 
arguments.  I was discussing the situation with uu.net and the 'Internet 
death penalty' situation when other administrators got together and stopped 
routing their packets for newsgroups.  Who knows how this could be used in 
the future.  My suggestion was to have some type of rule concerning the 
packet flow when it is necessary to depend on another provider to route 
your packets.  The answer I received:  Internet users need to get redundant 
paths through the Internet.  That sounds real good during a debate while 
sitting in CATO being served lunch, but such a plan would clearly put many 
small operators at the mercy of large ISP's or would simply put them out of 
business.

A presenter on the CATO board also kept discussing how good the WinTel 
situation has been to consumers.  She did have a somewhat valid point 
since, even with all the problems, computers are relatively cheap and an 
entire operating system costs less than $100.  However, what would it be 
like if the DOJ didn't keep talking about breaking up the monopoly?

Russ Smith
http://consumer.net












From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 25 16:28:43 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:28:43 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <19970925230814.2590.qmail@hotmail.com>



>From: Tim May 
>J. Random Hotmail User, you'd better learn to read the text of the 
bills
>you so blithely think are OK.

Well, I read the text of the bill, and here is part of what it says:


`(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES- No validated license may be required, 
except
    pursuant to the Trading With The Enemy Act or the International 
Emergency Economic Powers
    Act (but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not 
exercised to extend controls
    imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of--

          `(A) any software, including software with encryption 
capabilities--

               `(i) that is generally available, as is, and is designed 
for installation by the
               purchaser; or

               `(ii) that is in the public domain for which copyright or 
other protection is not
               available under title 17, United States Code, or that is 
available to the public
               because it is generally accessible to the interested 
public in any form;



This sounds like it should cover the kind of crypto that we
are talking about and that Ian Goldberg does.  It is generally
available and installable by the purchaser (it's free) and
it is in the public domain and generally accessible to the interested
public, etc.  And see, there are no export licenses for this.

There is another part that has the stuff you were talking about
re "diversion" and terrorism, but that is separate.  It
is for software that is not generally accessible and installable
by the purchaser and all that.  More specialized stuff, like custom
packages.  But cypherpunks software is for everybody, and this bill
should make it free to export.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 25 16:47:17 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:47:17 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



At 2:58 PM -0700 9/25/97, Anonymous wrote:

>The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
>like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
>old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
>software?
>
>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.


Think about a zero latency. How would mixing then occur? How would the
mapping between incoming and outcoming messages be obscured?

Latency, per se, is of course not the key issue. Mixing is. If a remailer
site gets an average of 10 messages per minute, and a mixing of 10 is
desired, then the average time delay could be as short as 1 minute. If a
remailer gets only a handful of messages over several hours, then the
latency cannot safely be made shorter than a few hours.

The math is straightforward.

As to what is needed to generally improve the remailers, this has been
discussed many times. Cf. my Cyphernomicon for some thoughts, c. 1994,
which actually haven't changed much.

Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:

* throwaway accounts, and yet with some robustness or reputation capital
backing them

* increased traffic at all levels

* a profit motive for remailers, using "digital postage" (though this may
work against the second point, having more traffic)

* more chaining tools for average users (on Windows and Macintosh machines,
using standard mailers)

* more analysis of the weaknesses of remailer networks, looking at
correlations that can be made, spoofing methods, etc.

* and so on

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From jf_avon at citenet.net  Thu Sep 25 16:48:16 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:48:16 +0800
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13 (fwd)
Message-ID: 




Here is a forward of the CFD where PGP was mentionned.  I posted several 
off-topic messages to the CFD, to introduce theses peoples to encryption, 
digital signatures, e$, etc.  For thoses who are curious about firearms 
related politics in Kanada, this it *the* forum for it.  Take note that 
the Allan Rock discussed in the various posts is the former Canada Justice 
Minister, now Canada Health Minister, who fanatically drafted and 
frantically pushed bill C-68, the gun registration bill.  Just so you 
know, now, in Kanada, simple possession of *any* firearms or some other 
weapons *is* a crime passible of 14 year of imprisonement, *unless* you get 
a permit that, in effect, waive that crime.  Of course, 
they say that they make it 
simple and reasonable to get it, but what the authorities want is to 
disamr the population.  Recently, they did not even shy out at saying it 
explicitely.  Among their plans, the outright confiscation without 
compensation of a great number of now Verboten types of firearms.

And you thought that the Kool Komrades were very far from you...


JFA
PGP key at w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon or at the MIT key server.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:03:08 -0600
From: Cdn-Firearms Digest 
To: cdn-firearms-digest at broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13


Cdn-Firearms Digest    Thursday, September 25 1997    Volume 02 : Number 013



In this issue:
	re: mor(e )on Bill C-68
	Unique registration
	Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times
	Re: Carry Permits
	Police Function in Canada (mtoma)
	Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com
	Foundations of Canadian Life
	re: The Police Function in Canada
	antique guns
	With friends like these ...
	Re: More Moronic Ramblings
	research links
	Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force...
	Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:12:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" 
Subject: re: mor(e )on Bill C-68

>then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private
>ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such
>weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone.  Someone
>once said that rifles were designed for hunting and, thereby, putting
>food on the table, but handguns were designed for one purpose and one
>purpose only: to kill people. The same goes for automatic weapons and
>assault rifles. So get rid of them altogether (and to hell with the
>target shooters - let them use air pistols!).

"Automatic weapons" are machine guns, i.e. they are "fully automatic"
(can fire many rounds with one trigger squeeze).  "Assault rifles" are
machine guns (of a specific type).

There are 4500 Canadians who may own registered machine guns, and do.
There has never been a registered machine gun used in a crime or
suicide by its owner.  I've never found an incident of one being stolen
and used.

So why ban them?

There are one million registered pistols, used safely every year.  Less
than five are involved in a homicide each year, including justifiable
homicides.  More than 80% of the 600 annual homicides do not involve a
pistol, let alone a registered pistol.

So why ban them?

If I can be trained and trusted to own use a car/chainsaw/airplane/
whatever safely, I should be able to be trained and trusted to own and
use _any_ kind of firearm safely.  Period.

What's more dangerous:  Using a gun at a range or flying an aircraft 
over a city?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:16:32 -0600 (CST)
From: SBKracer 
Subject: Unique registration

I own a Remington, WWII era, 1911A1 with a new serial number stamped
over the spot where the original would have been.  In fact some of the
original number can still be seen.  What are the chances this handgun
is uniquely registered?  The new serial number is a 5 digit number but
I have NO IDEA where the number came from, who supplied it or who
stamped it on.  I am at least the third owner (that I know of) of this
particular pistol since it entered Canada.

I also own an Allan rock special which with the slide removed has NO
markings at all save for a four digit number stamped on the backstrap.
Could this number possibly be a patent number?  I don't know how many
digits typically make up a patent number.  The pistol is an Arizzabalaga
Terrible (at least that is what it says on the registration certificate)
made circa 1920.  

Nice name for a gun huh?  The "Terrible!"  Specially considering it is
chambered for that manstopping 6.35 (.25ACP) cartridge.  


Peter Cronhelm		ZX-7 		Carbon Fibre Racing Machine
SBKracer		YSR/YZ80 	The Little Beast

	
"I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged."
- -Sons of Freedom-

"Without the threat of death, what's the point in living at all!"
- -Marilyn Manson-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:17:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "John E. Stevens" 
Subject: Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times

skeeter wrote:
>
>Claire Hoy has a good column on "Free Speech" in this week's The Hill
>Times.
>
>http://www.thehilltimes.ca/hilltimes/hoy.html


AND while you're there, take time to read:

	Plan to introduce bills in Senate sparks fury 
	in government and opposition benches.

It's sometimes kind of scarry how our democratic government subtly
attempts to circumvent democracy.


[sometimes?...  -- Skeeter]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:47:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Juha Askola 
Subject: Re: Carry Permits

Yes, you can take your friends handgun provided you are in possession
of a valid carry permit and green slip belonging to the gun you're
carrying.

I don't know the law on this one but I would play it safe.  When I
purchased my .45, I just took the receiver part to the police but still
with a trigger lock.

Took a little arguing to make them understand that they don't need or
require slide or barrel to register a gun, it was fun.

    Chao,  Juha

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:48:44 -0600 (CST)
From: someone at inter.net
Subject: Police Function in Canada (mtoma)

>[Moderator:  This may or may not be "official policy."  Without knowing the
>context or the original author it is difficult to evaluate.  HTB]

[snip]

>This particular document is by far the scariest federal gun control
>document I have ever seen.  In short it outlines stategies for gun
>confiscation and prohibition orders for gun owning citizens and the
>general disarmament of the populace.

[snip]

Even if this document is a complete fake, which we have no way of
finding out, it is very possible something similar is in the works.
Just look at UK and Australia!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:49:33 -0600 (CST)
From: someone at inter.net
Subject: Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com

In previous issues of the CFD, the issues of using and the governments'
attempts to restrict the use of Pretty Good Privacy encryption software
(www.pgp.com) was discussed and compared to restricting the use of
firearms.

I noticed a lot of users of this list have their PGP fingerprint
attached to their message, which is great.  However, a lot of people
are reluctant to use PGP because it was difficult to use and install.
For those using Eudora (16-bit or 32-bit), PGP Inc. has a special offer
to have a full version of PGP 5.0 for Eudora plug-in, which supports
both RSA and DSS/DH algorithm, for US$5 (five dollars).  Personally, I
think it is money well spent, with governments creeping up on us, you
never know when you HAVE TO encrypt all your email.

Go to www.pgp.com for more details.

I'm in no way shape or form related to PGP Inc, Qualcomm, or anyone who
might benefit from the sale of PGP or Eudora.  I'm just an immigrant to
this great country and would love to preserve the freedom we enjoy.


[Also visit the PGP resources listed under "Freedom sites" at the
cdn-firearms home page.  http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/  -- Skeeter]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:51:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Geoff Stokes" 
Subject: Foundations of Canadian Life

Recently, a local reporter found himself in a precarious position.
He's been reporting on a ticket fixing case and he has a good source
close to the investigation.  My point is that his article seems to echo
the fears some members of the RFC have with regard to the latest gun
control scheme:

>From the article entitled:  Call Threatens Foundation of Canadian
Life.

"Two weeks ago I received a thinly veiled threat from someone who is
either a policeman or somehow connected with the police...Then it
became clear that it was the very idea that a pion like me would dare
meddle with the RCMP...Finally, he said, If you start messing around
with the big boys, you're going to get an education in life...the fact
that most people believe that the police, the ones who are supposed to
protect us, are capable of the kind of harassment and intimidation that
my anonymous caller alluded to...To date, I'm happy to report that
there have been no unexplained searches of my vehicle, no funny clicks
on my phone and nothing to suggest that I am anyone's particular
target...But I don't even like thinking that those things are a
possibility, not in this country."

hmmmm..., sounds an awful lot like what it may be like under Bill C-68
concerning increased police discretion; or how an uncooperative,
non-complier may be treated in future..., or am I really going
paranoid??

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:21:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" 
Subject: re: The Police Function in Canada

>From: SBKracer 
>
>[The moderator wrote: This may or may not be "official policy."
>Without knowing the context or the original author it is difficult to
>evaluate.  HTB]
> 
>Sunday at a gunshow in Cow Town I got a copy of a news letter containing a
>Federal document on gun control dated 1977.  This document had been
>e-mailed by .

The excerpt printed in digest number 10 (volume 2) was scary, but I think
the one below is worse.  
___________________________________________________________________

	As regards the Police Function in Canada, prior to passage of
	the foregoing it was the opinion of the administrations:

	1. That in face of mass civil disobedience the use of Force had
	limited capabilities....

	2. That in face of mass civil disobedience any display of
	available Force would not have credibility....

	....as far as an armed and organized Public was concerned and
	it was felt in the interests of the Function that it was
	desirous to ensure the Public be discretely but effectively
	disarmed over a period of the forthcoming 5 years.

	The foregoing is not entirely the opinion of the
	administrations of the Function, but is one which has been
	voiced generally even at the rank and file level...that being
	that the absence of firearms in the hands of the Public in
	general would increase the safety of a Patrolmans work.

	With the passage of the Firearms Section of the Criminal Code
	of Canada Amendments, having been predetermined that in regards
	to the Functions ability as a Control and Enforcement Agency
	there was:

	1. A lack of personnel suitably indoctrinated at specific
	assignment levels and sectors within the proposed Control
	Structure.

	2. A requirement for the adequate indoctrination and training
	time,

	3. A requirement for time to phase in the various levels and
	sectors of the proposed Control Structure independently of one
	and another in a manner which would not create alarm, nor allow
	premature rapport.

	4. A requirement for time to nullify the credibility of
	alarmists and dissenters.
___________________________________________________________________

This document was obtained from MP Peter Elzinga.  I had been faxed a copy
back in 1994, but the source was "unknown".  We may never know if
it was/is for real...

read it all in Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #860

http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/cdn-firearms/Digests/v01n800-899/v01n860

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:15:14 -0600 (CST)
From: dcmiller at mail.island.net (douglas c miller)
Subject: antique guns

I think the Dave's answer in regard to the antique guns in digest V2
#12 was a little weak.  My first objection is that an 1864 Enfield
MkII* is probably a Snider Enfield and as such would be .58 caliber and
I very much doubt that it would be found in .303.  I think that Dave is
mistaking it for a Martini Enfield. His second comment re Winchesters
would have been far more accurate if he had stated Winchester
repeaters/carbines came in the following models.  The model 1885 is a
single shot in high wall and low wall models and I don't believe would
ever have been referred to as a saddle ring carbine.

What is perhaps more instructive of the questions posed is the error or
risk of registering one's own guns as illustrated by  the owner who
works in or in conjunction with a museum appears to have made at least
one descriptive mistake.

Just my $.02 worth

D.C. Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:54:14 -0600 (CST)
From: jean hogue 
Subject: With friends like these ...

>>I am an archaeologist by
>>profession and work for the **************** government.
>> ...
>>On the other hand, if there is really that
>>great a concern over public safety (as opposed to the amount of revenue
>>that can be generated by this punitive registration/licensing system),
>>then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private
>>ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such
>>weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone. 
>

I think Dave's reply to this was far too polite.

Yet another case where this quote by Pastor Martin Niemoller is so
appropriate:


	"In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't
	speak up because I wasn't a communist. They came for the Jews
	and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came
	for the trade Unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
	a trade Unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't
	speak up because I was a Protestant.  Then they came for me and
	by that time no one was left to speak up."


Just under what logic does this government archaeologist justify
banning the best-behaved guns in the country ? Several thousands (I
believe 5,000) automatic weapons were lawfully registered before 1979
by non-military, non-police law-abiding citizens. Not a single one has
ever been involved in a crime of violence.

As for automatic weapons being reserved strictly to the police and
military, two things:


        1- the only two cases of homicides committed with automatic
           weapons legally registered were:

                a) military: Corporal Lortie killed three in the
                             Quebec National Assembly (provincial
                             govm't) -- 1985 or 1986;

                b) police:   in Rock Forest, police fired a burst
                             from an Uzi, through the motel room door,
                             killing a labourer  police mistakenly
                             assumed to be the hold-up suspect they were
                             looking for -- early 1980's.

        2- the government archaeologist sounds just like Allan "Alibi Al"
           Rock:

		"I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only
		people in this country who should have guns are police
		officers and soldiers."

			Allan Rock, Canada's previous Minister of Justice
			Maclean's "Taking Aim on Guns", April 25, 1994, p 12


Pay attention to the man behind the curtain. A recent "study" by police
of guns recovered at crime scenes "concluded" that "legal" guns (they
meant unrestricted) were used in crime far more often than handguns and
evil semi-automatic "assault" rifles. The government archaeologist's
toys are deemed by police to be even more dangerous than the toys being
condemned by the archaeologist.


I have really lost patience for this mentality of throwing off "wolf
meat" from the dogsleigh to escape the wolves. The archaeologist is
simply advocating that the gun owner community sell off owners of
handguns and semi-automatics so that people like the archaeologist can
be left alone with their more politically-correct toys. All this based
on nothing more than an _iffy_ "concern".

Thanks for the back-stabbing and dream on!  As Max Headroom said: with
friends like these, who needs an oenema?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:55:47 -0600 (CST)
From: dons at Cadabratech.com (Don Shesnicky)
Subject: Re: More Moronic Ramblings

Here's an interesting story along this theme...

I caught this one on CBC radio two days ago while driving into work. It
was an excerpt from something that, I believe it was Martin Bell from
the BBC, said during a book presentation in Ottawa. He stated something
to the effect that the media could never be detached from the stories
they covered. As an example he put forth this story, which was said to
be true and which I will put into my own words:

  It seems that a reporter visiting Bosnia wanted to do a story
  on snipers. A Bosnian commander told him to go with one of his
  snipers. They crawled into place and after the sniper took a 
  look out onto a street told the reporter to take a peek and tell
  him what he saw. After looking the reporter said he could see two
  civilians standing in the street. The sniper asked him which one 
  should die. The reporter realizing that he suddenly didn't want
  to be there explained at length to the sniper that he didn't
  want either of them to die. As he turned to go he heard two shots. 
  He turned back to the sniper who said "Too bad, you could have 
  saved one of them".

Powerful story.

Don

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:20:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" 
Subject: research links

A couple of good links from the Cdn-Firearms Home Page (under
"research"):

http://www.nra.org/research/rihome.html
and 
http://www.nra.org/research/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:01:28 -0600 (CST)
From: griffith at comnet.ca
Subject: Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force...

>> and an 1885
>>Winchester saddle-ring carbine w/octagonal barrel in very fine
>>condition. 

>Winchesters went through Models 1873, to 1876, to 1886, to 1892, to
>1894.  Which do you have, and in what calibre?  There is no Model
>1885.

I got stuck with one of them fake model 1885 too.  I guess I should of
been more suspicious when the guy who sold it to me kept referring to
it as a "High Wall".  Sure is pretty. but i ain't worked out yet how do
I load the magazine.


 Gerald Griffith

" The easiest thing in the world to
achieve is the effective disapproval of
any sort of uncritically vested authority. "
      < Alexander King >

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:05:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" 
Subject: Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges

   Thursday, September 25, 1997
   
   Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges
   
   By SKANA GEE -- The Daily News
   
   The victim of a home invasion in Middle Sackville last month now has
   his own date with a judge.
   
   Clarence Joseph Arsenault, 60, was charged yesterday with illegal
   storage of firearms, stemming from an investigation into the robbery
   at his house Aug. 27.
   
   "They were kept in a room that wasn't secured very well and they were
   not secured very well," said Lower Sackville RCMP Const. Lynn Tardif.
   
   "They were kind of just in disarray."
   
   She said Mounties seized about 60 handguns, rifles and shotguns,
   including those that were stolen during the home invasion, during
   which Arsenault's elderly mother and seven-year-old grandson were tied
   up with rope and duct tape.
   
   Return Oct. 1
    
   The two men charged in that incident return to Bedford provincial
   court Oct. 1 to make their election.
   
   The charge against Arsenault alleges he stored restricted firearms
   without failing to render them inoperable by a secure locking device
   and storing them in a locked container or room "that is constructed so
   that it cannot readily be broken open."
   
   "It's one charge dealing with all the different firearms," said
   Tardif. She said many people in the community knew the Lakeview Avenue
   man was a gun collector, a situation aggravated by the fact his
   weapons were "easy to get at."
   
   Just after the home invasion, Arsenault told The Daily News he had
   begun to clean the guns "for the next gun show." He also said he
   expected to be charged.
   
   Tardif said police sympathize with Arsenault's family for the ordeal
   they experienced, but they maintain the charge is warranted.
   
   "It put everybody in a bad situation as far as I'm concerned," she
   said. "We have a job to do. We have no choice, but we also want to
   raise awareness about this kind of thing."
   
   Tardif said she could only speculate on what might have occurred if
   the weapons had been stored differently. "I don't know if you can
   necessarily prevent the robbery, but it would have made it a lot
   harder for them," she said.
   
   Arsenault will be arraigned Nov. 19.
   
   Joshua Alexander Pelley, 23, and Kenneth Wayne Beazley, 20, are
   charged with committing robbery by stealing guns while using threats
   of violence; break, enter and theft; and wearing a mask while
   committing an indictable offence in connection with the home invasion.

The NFA has supplied Mr. Arsenault with transcripts of  court decisions
that indicate the charge against him [CC s. 86(3), storage "in
violation of a regulation"] cannot be used because it is a violation of
the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

THE NFA STRONGLY CONDEMNS THE CANADIAN FIREARMS CENTRE FOR NOT MAKING
ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS AWARE OF THE DEFECTS IN THESE "STORAGE" CHARGES.
THE CFC, BY ITS REFUSAL TO DISTRIBUTE INFORMATION ABOUT IMPROPER
CHARGES LIKE THIS, IS CONTRIBUTING TO ABUSIVE ENFORCEMENT.  PLEASE
WRITE TO THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND DEMAND JUSTICE!

IT WOULD BE PERFECTLY SIMPLE FOR THE CFC TO DEVOTE ONE ISSUE OF THEIR
"BULLETIN" TO THE PROBLEMS OF CC S. 86(2) AND (3), BUT THEY INSIST ON
DELIVERING USELESS INFORMATION AND REFUSE TO PUBLISH IN AREAS LIKE THIS
WHERE ABUSE IS RAMPANT.  THEY WILL NOT PUBLISH ANYTHING THAT REDUCES
THE ABUSE LEVELS.  AND THAT IS WRONG.

CC s. 86(3) imposes a sentence of up to two years imprisonment.

The charge leaves no room for a defence of "due diligence" (I didn't do
it the way the regulations said to, but I did do it in a way that had
the same or a better effect).  That being so, storage in the
alternative way leaves one guilty of the offence, and that is a
violation of the Charter right to liberty.  The accused can be sent to
prison for up to two years -- when the accused has done nothing wrong.
That is a violation of the Charter right to "fundamental justice."

The R. vs. Smillie case (BC Supreme Court) ruled that CC s.86(3)
violates the Charter as indicated above, and therefore cannot be used.

R. vs. Finlay (Supreme Court of Canada) ruled that CC s. 86(2) and (3)
are regulatory law rather than proper criminal law, and that therefore
a proper defence of "due diligence" shall succeed.

Dave Tomlinson, NFA

FOCUS:  In trouble?  Know someone who is in trouble?  Learn of someone
who is in trouble?  Get in touch with the person in trouble, tell him
or her to get help from the NFA.  Call (403) 439-1394.

------------------------------

End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13
*********************************


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From pooh at efga.org  Thu Sep 25 17:13:03 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:13:03 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925200257.030c1640@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
>like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?

By latency, I assume you mean the lag time from when the message is sent,
till when it is received.  There are several possible reasons as to why a
remailer message is subject to a longer lag time than you like.

Remailer software is often a work in progress.  Changes are made on a
regular basis.  A recent change to correct one problem recently had the
effect of spinning off multiple copies of some of the remailer sub
programs.  As more and more copies went into memory, the machine got slower
and slower.  Programming changes are not an uncommon thing.

But remailers are subject to the same forces as other things on the
internet.  Email is particularly well suited for asynchronous
communications, so email is often left to drag behind while other processes
continue.  I've seen email I send to lists take hours to appear back to me.
 In addition to this natural internet force, remailers can be throttled to
go slow.  There are a number of options that can be selected by the
administrator to keep the remailer running slowly.  One of the more
externally obvious is the reordering pool.  A reordering remailer is
designed to fool traffic analysis by sending messages out in a different
order from what they come in.  By design a message must wait to be
delivered.  A user option in remailers will allow the sender to specify an
additional wait time to add to the system generated latency.

What would it take to get latency to under 60 seconds?  More remailer
traffic would help.  If instead of 100 messages per hour a remailer was to
receive 1,000 messages per hour there would be less need to throttle the
system and introduce lags to foil system traffic.  The reordering pool
would be flushed much more quickly.  You asked about hardware, there are
places where faster, or more hardware might help.

The truth is not everyone wants to reduce latency.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 25 17:21:42 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:21:42 +0800
Subject: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are    dangerous
Message-ID: <19970926000039.26898.qmail@hotmail.com>



Declan McCullagh :

            Sure,
            removing export controls completely would benefit
            everyone, but SAFE doesn't go that far: Only software
            "that is generally available" overseas may be exported.
            Which means if I invent a new data-scrambling method
            that nobody overseas has developed, I'm screwed.

This is wrong.  I quoted the part earlier removing restrictions on
generally available software.  Here is what they say about that:


"(A) the term 'generally available' means, in the case of software 
(including software with
encryption capabilities), software that is offered for sale, license, or 
transfer to any person without
restriction, whether or not for consideration, including, but not 
limited to, over-the-counter retail
sales, mail order transactions, phone order transactions, electronic 
distribution, or sale on approval;


There's nothing about it having to be available overseas.  You are
probably confusing it with the hardware part:


"(4) HARDWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall 
authorize the
export or reexport of computer hardware with encryption capabilities if 
the Secretary determines
that a product offering comparable security is commercially available 
outside the United States
from a foreign supplier, without effective restrictions.


But that part is hardware only.  Software just has to be freely
available to anyone who wants it.  It's almost like this was written
just for cypherpunks.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 25 17:47:15 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:47:15 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925230814.2590.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 4:08 PM -0700 9/25/97, John Smith wrote:
>>From: Tim May 
>>J. Random Hotmail User, you'd better learn to read the text of the
>bills
>>you so blithely think are OK.
>
>Well, I read the text of the bill, and here is part of what it says:
>

Congratulations on now having read the bill you endorse earlier today. You
should have read it before endorsing it. Now you are apparently grasping at
straws to reinforce the conclusions you have already reached, that SAFE is
a good bill and will let Ian and others freely export their products.

As for quoting just one section, there is always danger in this. For one
thing, the paragraphs preceeding the ones you quote say:

"Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the Secretary shall have
exclusive authority to control exports of all computer hard ware, software,
and technology for information security (including encryption), except that
which is specifically designed, or modified for military use, including
command, control, and intelligence applications."

Paragraph (3) is the one which imposes a standard for export which is quite
opposite the "no license" you apparently believe is the overriding
paragraph.




>`(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES- No validated license may be required,
>except
>    pursuant to the Trading With The Enemy Act or the International
>Emergency Economic Powers
>    Act (but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not
>exercised to extend controls
>    imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of--
>
>          `(A) any software, including software with encryption
>capabilities--
>
>               `(i) that is generally available, as is, and is designed
>for installation by the
>               purchaser; or
>
>               `(ii) that is in the public domain for which copyright or
>other protection is not
>               available under title 17, United States Code, or that is
>available to the public
>               because it is generally accessible to the interested
>public in any form;
>
>
>
>This sounds like it should cover the kind of crypto that we
>are talking about and that Ian Goldberg does.  It is generally
>available and installable by the purchaser (it's free) and
>it is in the public domain and generally accessible to the interested
>public, etc.  And see, there are no export licenses for this.

And you interpret Paragraph (3) in which way?

Even if Paragraph (3) did not exist, the allusion to the Trading With The
Enemy Act (which leads to the Munitions Act and the ITARs and, now, EARs)
and the Emergency Economic Powers Act would pretty much ensure that the
Feds could and would use SAFE to halt exports of a product they believed
would compromise national security, tax collection capabilities, etc.


>There is another part that has the stuff you were talking about
>re "diversion" and terrorism, but that is separate.  It
>is for software that is not generally accessible and installable
>by the purchaser and all that.  More specialized stuff, like custom
>packages.  But cypherpunks software is for everybody, and this bill
>should make it free to export.

Nonsense. Read the _entire_ text. Also read Declan's June article, which he
just sent to the list today.

The debate is not about export of "custom packages." Ask RSADSI. Ask
Netscape. Ask PGP Inc.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Sep 25 17:52:50 1997
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:52:50 +0800
Subject: Concrete examples re why we can't trust the government with our keys.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970925172115.007e7370@mail.io.com>




>From today's San Jose Mercury News' "AP Breaking News" section -

First, the FBI settled a FOIA suit with a scholar who had sought access to
the FBI's files re John Lennon - the FBI fought release for 16 years,
finally agreeing to release all but 10 records and pay the requester's
$204,000 in accrued attorney's fees. The records released revealed no
information which suggested that Lennon was involved in, planned to, or
engaged in an illegal act; he was, however, unpopular with the then-head of
the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover. Who is Louis Freeh spying on?


Second, a former NSA employee was sentenced to 18 years in Federal prison
for selling classified information to the Soviet Union for a mere $27,000.
How much would he have charged for escrowed key information? 



--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com






From mech at eff.org  Thu Sep 25 18:09:12 1997
From: mech at eff.org (Stanton McCandlish)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:09:12 +0800
Subject: Concrete examples re why we can't trust the government with
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970925172115.007e7370@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199709260044.RAA13926@eff.org>



Cf. "FileGate", the frequent prosecution of IRS employees busted selling
American's personal tax information to PIs and other nosy parties, and FL
state(?) health worker caught giving out diskettes of AIDS patient records
at a local bar.  There are also cases of  DMV giving out contact info that
has resulted in stalkings and murders.  Look also for other Ames-alikes.
JEdgar himself was blackmailing.

Greg Broiles typed:
> 
> 
> >From today's San Jose Mercury News' "AP Breaking News" section -
> 
> First, the FBI settled a FOIA suit with a scholar who had sought access to
> the FBI's files re John Lennon - the FBI fought release for 16 years,
> finally agreeing to release all but 10 records and pay the requester's
> $204,000 in accrued attorney's fees. The records released revealed no
> information which suggested that Lennon was involved in, planned to, or
> engaged in an illegal act; he was, however, unpopular with the then-head of
> the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover. Who is Louis Freeh spying on?
> 
> 
> Second, a former NSA employee was sentenced to 18 years in Federal prison
> for selling classified information to the Soviet Union for a mere $27,000.
> How much would he have charged for escrowed key information? 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles at netbox.com         | Export jobs, not crypto.
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | http://www.parrhesia.com
> 



--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech at eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join






From decius at ninja.techwood.org  Thu Sep 25 18:11:12 1997
From: decius at ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:11:12 +0800
Subject: Plea for help from IRS; Liberty?
Message-ID: 



>        Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
>                                       
>  David C. Treibs
>  Fredericksburg, TX 78624
>  sirdavid at ktc.com
>   
>  We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.



>   For Liberty,

Although your attempts to free your children from the database
establishment are admirable, please do not confuse your fight with the
government over who has the "right" to >CONTROL< your children with a
fight for "liberty." If your children decided they did not want to live
in your house anymore, I'm sure you'd have the police round them up. If
you were truely concerned with liberty, you'd be concerned with your
CHILDRENS' liberty... And if so I doubt you'd have made the following
statement:  

>   The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the
>   Child
>   Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
>   government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
>   children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
>   with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.
   
I am going to jump to the conclusion here that you have neither read this
treaty nor do you have the slightest clue what it says or what it means. 
I might be wrong about that, but then you might wish to explain where
"monitoring" and "enforcement" and Social Security Numbers fall into what
is basically a restatement of the American Bill of Rights with the express
demand that these rights be extended to minors. 

The United States is one of the few countries in the western world that
hasn't signed it? Why? Due to numerous complex generational, economic, and
political issues it has become extremely popular to blame the problems of
the world on fanciful "youth predators." As a result, minors in the United
States may be tried as adults in court, despite the fact they they cannot
even gain standing in court and press charges themselves. They may be
executed as an adult, but they may not vote as one. (Incidentally, the
American practice of executing minors is extremely rare internationally
and is one of the big reasons why this country remains on Humanity
International's bad guy list along side places where slavery is legal.) 
Minors have very little right to freedom of speech and thought. Minors
have no right to privacy.

If the US signed this treaty they would have to remove the metal detectors
from the schools, they would have to stop requiring that children carry
see-through bags, they would have to allow children the right to express
their beleifs, they would have to stop enforcing "anti-gang" curfew laws
and loitering laws (which are far more common in peaceful suburban
communities than in places that actually have problems with youth
violence), and worst of all, they would have to allow children to file
lawsuits against abusive parents. (Those who follow internet politics
might wish to note that at the same time the Christian Coallition was
screaming "protect the children from internet porn" they were also, more
quitely, protesting state's ability to interfere in cases of child
abuse... this is considered pro-family.) 

Although I no longer have to endure the numerous restrictions that the
government places on minors, I am not yet old enough to have forgotten
what it feels like to be treated like a criminal because of an arbitrary
number overwhich I have no control, and ultimately because of a newspaper
editor's profit motive. Have you ever been arrested simply because you
chose to take a walk during an unapproved time of day?

Although I do agree that the government should not have the ability to
control how you raise your children; I feel that these "restrictions"
cannot be lifted until children have the ability to fight back, or leave,
when serious problems arise. The Christian Coallition would have us return
to the days of Victorian "values" where child and spousal abuse were so
common place that they were considered normal activity and protected by
law. So I ask you not to confuse what you are doing with a fight for
liberty. Liberty is not about your rights. Liberty is about everyone's
rights. 
          
-- 
        */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
                       Decius at ninja.techwood.org

"If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Thu Sep 25 18:19:41 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:19:41 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199709260054.BAA00705@server.test.net>




John Smith  writes:
> Adam Back  writes:
> >You reference Ian Goldberg claiming to have to work on crypto during
> >trips to Canada.  I think he was just trying to make a political
> >point.  I submit that he could write and publish all the crypto he
> >wants in the US (on one of those "export controlled" sites).  It will
> >get illegally exported in no time at all.  Where's the problem?
> 
> That's easy for you to say, there in England.  You don't have these
> export controls, right?  

We have different export controls.  You can export what you want
electronically right now.  And, so I hear, the exporter is defined as
the person who downloads from your web site, so lots of hits from Iraq
is no problem.  Start to talk about tangible things and you require a
license.  You can get export licenses for strong crypto, 128 bit etc,
just the spooks like to know what's going on, who you're selling to
etc.  I think it probably depends who you're exporting to, etc, etc.
Ie I don't know that the results are publically published, nor reasons
for rejections, etc. so I don't really know how it works out in
practice.

Interestingly perhaps all the T-shirts with the .sig on them I have
been exporting to Russia, France, Peru, Brazil, etc. (could someone
from Iraq order one -- that'd be fun) are probably export violations
from the UK too.  I mean it has crypto on it, and it is tangible, and
I haven't asked for permission.  (I'm sure they would grant
permission, but I guess technically I'm supposed to ask them).

> How can you say what Ian Goldberg should do.  

Does do.  He wrote a loop back crypto driver for linux.  It's
available on the cypherpunks ftp site at berkeley.  It's also
available at the Italian crypto ftp site.  I was presuming he wrote it
in the US, as his instructions include a for export version with the
crypto chopped out and instructions on how to put it back in.

Anyway, let's see.  Other people write crypto code in the US.  They
set up a revolving directory or some other check.  MPJ had such a
site.  People do this with no legal problems, even Netscape does it
with US government official approval.

So clearly it's not illegal.

Anyway, for freeware crypto, it gets illegally exported (presumably by
third parties) and openly mirrored outside the US.  So where is the
problem that is holding up freeware crypto? 

Actually there are less direct problems, such as loss of interactive
collaboration from non-US contributors, etc.  But you see my point I
hope.

> >William Geiger has PGP on a non-export controlled site, and the export
> >bods haven't said a word, so it's not even clear that they care about
> >freeware at this point.
> 
> PGP is a special case because it is already out there everywhere.

So you're going to export it too?

> Still the example of Phil Zimmerman is a good one.  Even though he
> got away with it eventually, they showed how they can make your life
> hard.  Probably the only reason he didn't get charged was because
> they couldn't prove anything.  

I think it most likely that it was because it wouldn't have been in
their interests due to negative publicity, Zimmermann was a folk hero
by then.  Course nobody knows the official reason, not even Zimmermann
himself.  His lawyer knows, but the condition of knowing is not being
allowed to tell other people the reason, so PRZ chose not to know.

> Not many people are going to be willing to take that chance.
> William Geiger and a few others may be exceptions, but most people
> won't openly break a law which has strong penalties like this.

No?

This program is officially not exportable according to USG.  Prof
Peter Junger obtained a written decision stating this to be
non-exportable:

#!/bin/perl -sp0777i A lot of hackers thought they'd be heros but ended up doing time.
> Read that letter from Jim Bell if you want to see how different
> things look once the government comes down on you.

Really I agree.  Jim Bell is a different case, possibly more to do
with these common law courts he was apparently involved in, and
various IRS arguments, but perhaps also to do with his essays
describing betting pools to remove congress-critters.

I wasn't suggesting Ian should violate the export regulations.  Rather
that it's not a problem because interesting software invariably gets
exported anyway.  So let someone else do the exporting, or importing,
or whatever happens..

> But after all the opposition which came out, from practically every
> interest group there is, I am sure that there is no way domestic
> controls on crypto are going to pass.  

Could be.  Hope you're right.  The other less favourable example is
the phone tapping regs they bought in, and the clipper chip.  Clipper
chip was the classic, they all voted against it, so Klinton brought it
in as a government standard by presidential decree.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199709260029.BAA00682@server.test.net>




Tim May  writes:
> As to what is needed to generally improve the remailers, this has been
> discussed many times. Cf. my Cyphernomicon for some thoughts, c. 1994,
> which actually haven't changed much.
> 
> Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:
> 
> * throwaway accounts, and yet with some robustness or reputation capital
> backing them

We've kind of got throw away accounts recently, Ian Goldberg wrote a
perl script to open accounts and sendmail through a couple of the free
web based email services.

On the remailer operators list use of this script was discussed as an
alternative for remailer operators moving to `middleman' operation, or
closing down entirely in the face of threats.

There might even be a remailer or two using this ... perhaps some
remailer operators could fill us in.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anonymous wrote:
>Anonymous who signed himself as Monty Cantsin  writes:
>> While I am generally sympathetic with Mr. Treibs, it does not seem
>> reasonable to ask for a government child subsidy while claiming the
>> government has no business raising kids.
>
>Since when is a deduction on income tax (not a tax credit) a
>`government child subsidy'?
>
>It's not the government's money.

That's true.  And it is worth taking the trouble to distinguish
between pure subsidies like those that TRW and welfare queens take
from tax subsidies which most people take.

Still, a tax deduction is a benefit.  How much would you pay for a
$1000 tax deduction?  It depends on your marginal income tax rate, of
course, but presumably you would pay around $300.

Mr. Treibs is asking for this benefit, for special treatment from the
government, solely because he has children.  If he doesn't want the
government to insist that his children be tagged like everyone else,
it would be very easy for him to forego this benefit and pay under the
same tax scheme that many other childless people pay.

Unjust?  No more so than the tax rate people without children are
forced to pay.

But, I wish Mr. Treibs and his family well.  They sound like the kind
of good decent people that one would like to have for neighbors.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCr8P5aWtjSmRH/5AQHERQf/QzYaifjLsspLkULVwFdK9bbbR6pc8Imp
KbTH+i31Pp67U+Gb9UbtFRw08ysJ659vmMgL+f07yQnNNr5ZJfSDyEmrFO/P5mOq
9eSm+vEZaBsUGBrEKaUowsXb4mWnj8QIu1xV+0xI00+uNk4qGlAB0U0MFjoarN2c
cGvfmWZvMmHOgdTMp1cDXJ/DlzsTJmCWLbvaCMhnqtL6tCEAem+jqgZ79zCl15ut
YgtsKPVXBln1w9zSF95t4cpnyHMtO5ct2bdtIBWMrVCYsmAK3wTy+CKZUhGk/X5Z
Cs51EJ2baBNFizW2nSFZjCYsIDIkQAcBJg1SVkGgHF+sJU2rR/1ppw==
=gNsM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep 25 18:47:13 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:47:13 +0800
Subject: Remailer latency
Message-ID: <47bdb6b01ac438999c7a7c21b9e68457@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Joe Grasty wrote:
>At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.
>
>Sure.  Send me $125 a month for a dedicated line, and I'll insure
>that you get low latencies on winsock.

It's a start!

According to Raph's list, your remailer has a latency of about 16
hours.  Dialing in should cause a latency of, at most, an hour.  That
is, you could reasonably dial in once an hour, or even every fifteen
minutes.  Is there some other cause for the latency?

Do you have an ecash account?  If you charged 25 cents per message,
you would only need to handle about 17 messages a day to cover your
dedicated line.  The load on the line would be negligible and you
could use it for other things.

Please excuse my reluctance to fund your dedicated line, but probably
the money would be better spent subsidizing hardware for people who
are willing to set up remailers.

Incidentally, if somebody offered you colocation space, would you be
willing to set up your machine there?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCr4XJaWtjSmRH/5AQEBZQf6Aup0XcdJURyied5CaX3jsDTYAz7X4wHB
2isCDLaEE5Aa2lIt9weN5hRi2tWpo16RHqtWBvruyvu9c7DNu9We99TwmB4OFmQn
sjexds6DWMO7obl77kWhjBLkMDshPS3/tbsAsaoEF0lInAdF0Pq/Tqx+OKnQzCGE
SX92rT0FIJtOsY+fbJMv68a6/vXgmPfjMtP00klJY5gxnmyeaoFPGFloPVFgHhqG
pA0++8Y5xTezgSmQswZxkaWkW9gBrJpOc3gWJgF7GzxcknOZHBweMXBmw0uRVXh8
vifPP7FvEe0w+OAhVycmgynpnLbKPGRzIp8abCsFUW+TQl9mhOEwzQ==
=0Tgw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From hrast at flash.net  Thu Sep 25 19:08:33 1997
From: hrast at flash.net (Michael Brock)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:08:33 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <01BCC9F4.D0AF8BE0@dasc2-106.flash.net>



I agree that there should be *NO* rules about encryption...  If the government wants to break encryption, buy the people who hack it and let them go just like every other good industrial country...

M.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Lucky Green [SMTP:shamrock at cypherpunks.to]
Sent:	Thursday, September 25, 1997 9:17 AM
To:	Michael Brock
Cc:	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject:	Re: Oxley Amendment

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring 
> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented 
> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to 
> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I 
> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction 
> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his 
> constituents want....

What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
the Oxley ammendment.

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"







From hrast at flash.net  Thu Sep 25 19:25:56 1997
From: hrast at flash.net (Michael Brock)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:25:56 +0800
Subject: Oxley Amendment
Message-ID: <01BCC9F6.BE471AC0@dasc2-106.flash.net>



I believe (as I am sure most here do) that crypto of any strength will become illegal, and that anyone sending a message in Pig Latin will soon be shot on sight by FBI the "protecting" our rights...

Any control on encyrption, domestic or exportable, is unacceptable in today's high computing power society...  Mandatory key escrow, well, you thought the IRS was corrupt...

"Have you cracked RC5 today?"
M.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Declan McCullagh [SMTP:declan at well.com]
Sent:	Thursday, September 25, 1997 10:29 AM
To:	Lucky Green
Cc:	Michael Brock; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject:	Re: Oxley Amendment

Lucky has it right. SAFE is extremely unlikely to go to the floor without
additional "compromise."

Then there's the "compromise" with whatever bill the Senate coughs up.
Remember that pro-crypto legislation is dead there; only McCain-Kerrey got
out of committee. Also remember the Senate is more conservative...

Then there's the reality that no pro-crypto legislation would get past a
presidential veto...

-Declan


At 07:16 -0700 9/25/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Michael Brock wrote:
>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I wonder if Mr. Solomon of NY will rethink his decision to not bring
>> up SAFE without Oxley to the entire House after the unprecedented
>> coaltion of companies and individual groups that came together to
>> make sure that mandatory key recovery stays a "1984" like dream.   I
>> find it incomprehensible that one man, would block the introduction
>> of this bill, after it being proved that this is what his
>> constituents want....
>
>What in the world makes you believe that Mr. Solomon's constituents would
>want SAFE to go the the floor? SAFE *must* be defeated, with or without
>the Oxley ammendment.
>
>-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
>   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"









From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 19:27:52 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:27:52 +0800
Subject: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are     dangerous
In-Reply-To: <19970926000039.26898.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 17:00 -0700 9/25/97, John Smith wrote:
>This is wrong.  I quoted the part earlier removing restrictions on
>generally available software.  Here is what they say about that:

Legislative history is not a guidepost I like to follow when considering
whether a bill is a good one. Note the Supremes largely rejected the
government's arguments that the legislative history of the CDA justified it
as a law. Instead you should look at the plain text of the law, which says
software not requiring a license is:

"(A) any software, including software with encryption capabilities
                   "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or
                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
                    copyright or other protection is not available
                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
                    available to the public because it is generally
                    accessible to the interested public in any form; or
>
>There's nothing about it having to be available overseas.  You are
>probably confusing it with the hardware part:

Nope, the "generally available" clause above talks about software. Reread
the text of the bill, not some staffer's wet dreams about what they want it
to say.

Then there's the bit Tim was complaining about:

       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall
       authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption
capabilities for
       nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software of
similar
       capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
controlled in fact by
       United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence that
such software will
       be --

              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting
              international terrorism;
              "(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or
              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United States
              that may be required under this Act.

Of course there's substantial evidence that PGP etc. will be used by
unapproved people. That's another problem with SAFE.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From Syniker at aol.com  Thu Sep 25 19:28:11 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:28:11 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <970925221454_-1833065176@emout19.mail.aol.com>



I'm all for the year... get more people
using crypto everyday...
We 'gotta make it popular and the 'thing to do'...
We need a Captain Marvel Secret Decoder Ring...
"Hey Kids, send a secret message to your buddies..."

At this point... after what's happened so far..
I'm in favor of a Clinton veto...
NO crypto laws at all...

LarryM.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Thu Sep 25 19:43:22 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:43:22 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <199709260215.EAA23117@basement.replay.com>



Declan forwards us:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
>From: "David C. Treibs" 
>To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid at ktc.com)>
>Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems

[snip]

>Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
>of parents' God-given responsibility.

"And dang it, all the ones around here start with 666."

You have the right not to get SSNs for your kids. However, by doing that,
you give up the opportunity to slork a chunk of your money back out of the
U.S. Treasury. But hey, There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Think of it as a Freedom Tithe. It probably pisses the Gub'mint off MORE
knowing that you'd rather pay than knuckle under. Of course, as the saying
goes: "once you pay Danegeld, you'll never get rid of the Dane."

Anyway, it doesn't matter for shit. Many records nowadays are also indexed
by name and date of birth, and they collect that stuff from everywhere.
They know who you are (had to file that birth certificate) and where you
live (property records and voter registration information). In the Land Of
The Freeh, your kids are already tagged, bagged, and waiting to be
fingerprinted and photographed.

Next step: ID transponders, so the cops can retroactively arrest 'em for
being in the vicinity when mayhem happened to occur. The only question is
whether it'll be the fascists on the Left (pushing the "make everything
safe for everyone" agenda) or the fascists on the Right (pushing the "get
tough on crime and damn everything else" agenda) who get the laws passed.
Either way, a little talc under that collar will keep it from chafing.

Ratbert







From Syniker at aol.com  Thu Sep 25 19:54:55 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:54:55 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <970925224018_-1964822361@emout15.mail.aol.com>



Sorry that I'm not of any faith, so can't identify that way...
and I've never let any children live long enough to get 'number's for them...

But I'm totally empathetic with your argument...
and agree with you completely... this is a sucking situation...
and it's NOT right.

I can only say press on in your complaints... the dreadful
IRS 'may' be undergoing some changes real soon...
and you may be able to take advantage...

What I'd personally do -- is shine the deductions before I'd ever
give in to these bastards...
and instead -- short the US Treasury markets...
and smile all the way to the bank with my just rewards....

Best to you... hope someone here can help better.... LarryM.






From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 20:04:37 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:04:37 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <970925221454_-1833065176@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 Syniker at aol.com wrote:

> At this point... after what's happened so far..
> I'm in favor of a Clinton veto...
> NO crypto laws at all...

What Congress can grant, they can take away. I'm not sure if I like the
SAFE language that "grants" me the right to use whatever encryption device
I like at whatever strength I like. 

You see... I thought that was an inalienable right that Congress can't
grant, let alone take back.

No pro-crypto legislation will survive a Clinton veto. I challenge those
who disagree to post a contrary scenario.

-Declan






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 25 20:08:08 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:08:08 +0800
Subject: Forward: Private Information Retrieval Talk friday
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:11:39 -0400
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
From: Kent Borg 
Subject: Forward: Private Information Retrieval Talk friday
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Kent Borg 

This isn't strictly commerce, but it is anonymity related, and that can be
important for electronic commerce.  It is also likely to be nice and
techie, for those who need an occasional does of substance.

Finally, I forward this to the Digital Commerce Society of Boston list
because it is damn close to Boston.

-kb, the Kent who is enjoying a good news in digital land day.


<< start of forwarded material >>

 ** From: rivest at theory.lcs.mit.edu (Ron Rivest)
 ** Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 10:31:48 EDT
 ** To: cis-reading-group at theory.lcs.mit.edu, cis-seminars at theory.lcs.mit.edu
 ** Subject: Talk friday
 **
 **
 ** There will be a CIS seminar this Friday.  All are welcome!
 **
 ** Title:	Protecting Data Privacy in Private Information Retrieval
 Schemes.
 ** Speaker: Tal Malkin
 ** When:	1:30--3:30 (talk starts at 2PM) Friday, September 26, 1997
 ** Where:	NE43-518
 **
 ** Abstract:
 **
 ** Private Information Retrieval (PIR) schemes allow a user to retrieve
 ** the i-th bit of a data string x, replicated in k>=2 databases (in the
 ** information-theoretic setting) or k>=1 databases (in the computational
 ** setting), while keeping the value of i private. The main cost measure
 ** for such a scheme is its communication complexity.
 **
 ** We study PIR schemes where in addition to the user's privacy we
 ** require {\em data privacy}. That is, in every invocation of the
 ** retrieval protocol the user learns exactly a single (physical) bit of
 ** x and no other information about the data. All currently known PIR
 ** schemes fail to meet this requirement, which is essential for
 ** ``real-world'' applications. Solutions to this problem also yield
 ** efficient distributed implementations of the cryptographic 1 out of n
 ** oblivious transfer primitive.
 **
 ** We present transformations that allow translating PIR schemes into
 ** ones that respect data privacy as well, with a small penalty in the
 ** communication and randomness complexity. In particular we get:
 ** a k-database scheme of complexity $O(\log n\cdot n^{1/(2k-1)})$ for
 ** every k>=2; an $O(\log n)$-database scheme of poly-logarithmic
 ** complexity; and a 2-database computational PIR scheme of complexity
 ** $O(n^c)$, for every constant $c>0$.  All these schemes require only a
 ** single round of interaction. A {\em single} database computational
 ** scheme can also be achieved, based on the hardness of deciding
 ** quadratic residuosity and using a multi-round protocol.
 **
 ** Joint work with Yael Gertner, Yuval Ishai, and Eyal Kushilevitz.
 **

<< end of forwarded material >>



--
Kent Borg                               H: +1-617-776-6899
kentborg at borg.org                       W:
   "Then with daybreak not quite risen into dawn,
    the night and day still deadlocked, round the pyre
    a work brigade of picked Achaeans grouped."
                  - Homer's Illiad (7-500, Fagles tr.)



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From jaed at best.com  Thu Sep 25 20:13:22 1997
From: jaed at best.com (Jeanne A. E. DeVoto)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:13:22 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
In-Reply-To: <970925221454_-1833065176@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: 



At 7:17 PM -0700 9/25/97, Syniker at aol.com wrote:
>I'm all for the year... get more people
>using crypto everyday...

This is why holding actions help. Confusing Congress enough to delay taking
up encryption bans may eventually win the war, if in the time between
enough people begin to use and understand encryption that politicians see a
downside in upsetting that many voters by deleting their privacy.

I believe the same factors worked for us in the recent CDA/net-censorship
battles.

--
"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you recover your keys."







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 20:37:22 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:37:22 +0800
Subject: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
In-Reply-To: <199709252156.RAA00518@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: 



Thanks, Shabbir, for putting this vital information online. But I'm a
little puzzled. I fear the CDT/VTW crypto.com web site may be misleading.

You say, for instance, that opposing SAFE yesterday was a vote "against
Internet privacy" and "against passing the SAFE bill out of committee."
That's not true. The Markey-White-amended bill the committee approved
yesterday was not the SAFE bill. It was a deviant version with important
differences from SAFE.

The Markey-White amendment includes: the doubled crypto-in-a-crime
penalties (10-20 years!), the sop to eventual mandatory key recovery by
including liability immunity for turning over keys to the Feds or the
sheriff of Podunk County, the bogus NETcenter that effectively gives the
NSA a statutory basis for domestic evildoing, etc. (Markey wanted to take
credit for killing the original SAFE. He told the Washington Post "after
the vote" that the original, better, Goodlatte SAFE "no longer exists as a
political option." That's right -- thanks to his own amendment...)

The second and third votes are essentially the same: should the above
provisions be in the Commerce committee of the bill. But why do you avoid
taking a position on whether the second vote on Markey-White was good or
bad?

If the second description was to avoid taking a position on Markey-White,
it doesn't work. You say in your third description that a vote for the
amended Markey-White bill was a good one. Why would CDT/VTW endorse such
disturbing legislation? (And not admit it?) To what extent was CDT/VTW
involved in drafting Markey-White and to what extent did you encourage
committee members to vote for it?

Also, the description for the third vote is misleading by itself. It just
says "report SAFE" when it should say "report SAFE with Markey-White
provisions" out of committee.

And, given these problems with Markey-White, why is the CDT/VTW crypto.com
site counting a vote for the Markey-White-amended bill as a vote for
"Internet privacy?" I should think that given the problems -- such as
doubling of crypto-in-a-crime and sop towards mandatory key recovery --
that a vote against the Markey-White-amended bill is a //good// vote, not
one against Net-privacy.

If a legislator wanted to vote for Internet freedom and reject deviant
bills, he should have voted against Oxley, Markey-White, and against
passing the bill with Markey-White out of committee yesterday. (That would
have left the cleaner Judiciary committee version of SAFE as a more likely
option.) Rep. Brown, for instance, did just that -- yet you tar him as
against Internet freedoms.

Go figure.

-Declan


crypto.com says:

>Voted in favor of Internet privacy at the full
>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. This vote was
>against attaching the Oxley-Manton 'Big Brother'
>amendment to SAFE.
>
>Voted against the Markey-White amendment at the full
>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was
>against attaching the Markey-White amendment to SAFE.
>
>Voted against Internet privacy at the full Commerce
>committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against
>passing the SAFE bill out of committee.



At 17:56 -0400 9/25/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in place at
>http://www.crypto.com/member/
>
>Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about, either by zip code
>or by state, and you can see how they voted in the three Commerce votes
>last night.  Then, you can call and yell or send kudos.








From frantz at netcom.com  Thu Sep 25 21:03:44 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:03:44 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:00 PM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh forwarded:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
>From: "David C. Treibs" 
>To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid at ktc.com)>
>Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
>
>                                        David C. Treibs
>                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
>                                        sirdavid at ktc.com
>
>Hi.
>
>We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
>
>For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
>numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

This sounds like one for the ACLU.  They frequently take religious freedom
cases.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From spector at zeitgeist.com  Thu Sep 25 21:06:05 1997
From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:06:05 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>





FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
(09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
By David Braun, TechWire 

MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
nondemocratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.

Addressing a workshop on how far society should go in trading off
privacy for effective law enforcement, McDonald said privacy activists
had fought any balance in proposed encryption legislation.

"Such absolute positions threaten not only electronic searches but
also conventional searches for data that has been encrypted," McDonald
said.

Absolute positions on privacy were "pernicious on several levels,"
McDonald added.

The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers. Extreme privacy
positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
McDonald said.

McDonald's statements came a day after a key committee of the
U.S. House of Representatives rejected an FBI-supported proposal that
would have compelled the makers of encryption products to include
features that would enable law enforcement agencies to gain immediate
and, if necessary, covert access to unscramble any coded data.

Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

"Based on a theory of potential government abuse, important tools
commonly used are to be restricted or embargoed," McDonald said.

McDonald said efforts in the United States to enhance effective law
enforcement search and seizure capabilities had proceeded without
harming legitimate privacy concerns.

In the area of electronic surveillance, McDonald said, privacy
enhancements had frequently received treatment "superior to that
required under our Constitution."

With minor exceptions, neither the laws nor the cases decided
regarding effective law enforcement or privacy had come about with the
view that either were absolute in their nature, McDonald said. Law
enforcement measures had been tempered by considerations of personal
privacy, and privacy laws had been balanced with effective law
enforcement.

Notwithstanding the substantial threats posed by national and
international organized crime, drug cartels, and terrorists, the
United States had remained true to its Constitutional moorings, and
its commitment to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald said.

"When people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are
fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme
Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and
procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and
balanced," McDonald said.



-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector at zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.580.7193
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells






From lists at agape.dyn.ml.org  Thu Sep 25 21:39:29 1997
From: lists at agape.dyn.ml.org (John Bishop)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:39:29 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Well, seeing how Mr. Treibs is not a Nazi, satan worshipper, or pagan
fundamentalist, I doubt that the ACLU will want much to do with him.

	- John Bishop

Please encrypt all important correspondance with PGP.  My key available by
sending a blank message to "moonwick-pgp at iquest.net".  All unsolicited
e-mail sent to any of my addresses will incur a US$500 downloading &
deletion charge.

	"Real men don't need backups!"
		- Linus Torvalds, author of Linux, while rewriting the
		  e2fs filesystem code.

On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 12:00 PM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh forwarded:
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
> >From: "David C. Treibs" 
> >To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid at ktc.com)>
> >Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
> >
> >                                        David C. Treibs
> >                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
> >                                        sirdavid at ktc.com
> >
> >Hi.
> >
> >We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
> >
> >For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
> >numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.
> 
> This sounds like one for the ACLU.  They frequently take religious freedom
> cases.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
> (408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
> frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
> 
> 






From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 25 21:44:55 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:44:55 +0800
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:48:02 -0400
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga 

Now, *this* is fun...

Cheers,
Bob



--- begin forwarded text


From: Some Producer :-)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:55:13 -0400 (EDT)
To: rah at shipwright.com
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE

Rodney,

Thank you for your e-mail in regards to having a FIRING LINE DEBATE in
Boston.  I read your proposal abd I to feel it would make an interesting
debate.  I'm meeting with the producer and Mr. Buckley next week and will
show the your proposal.
Whenever you get a chance please write back where you can be reached.  If you
need to reach me please don't hesitate to call .

Sincerely,



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 25 21:45:14 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:45:14 +0800
Subject: Special Firing Line Debate on the regulation of financial  encryption and internet commerce?
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:16:43 -0400
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: Special Firing Line Debate on the regulation of financial
 encryption and internet commerce?
Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga 


--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah at pop.sneaker.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:44:39 -0400
To:Somebody at SCTV
From: Robert Hettinga 
Subject: Special Firing Line Debate on the regulation of financial
 encryption and internet commerce?
Cc: rah at shipwright.com, Rodney Thayer 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

,

I talked to someone at WGBH, and they said that Firing Line is produced
there at SCETV. Since I couldn't find an address for Warren Stibel(sp?)
Productions on the net anywhere, I figure if I send this to you, as
, that you might be able to forward
the following to the appropropriate folks who could help.

Thanks for your best efforts on our behalf,

Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

- -------------

To Whom it May Concern,


My name is Robert Hettinga, and I'm the moderator of the Digital Commerce
Society of Boston, an informal group of about 300 or so people involved in
digital commerce and financial cryptography who hang out together on an
internet email list and meet once a month for lunch and a speaker at the
downtown Harvard Club, here in Boston. A sister group is just getting
started in New York, and there have been rumblings about doing it in
Washington, as well.

We've been doing this for a little over two years now, and we've had lots of
interesting speakers, on everything from the gory guts of internet
transaction and cryptography protocols to the effect of the internet on
market efficiency, to, of course, government encryption policy, which is why
I'm writing you this.


A couple of months ago, the DCSB program committee and I decided that, given
the increasing government interest in encryption on the net, now evidenced
by two or three bills, and a lot of legislative skulduggery the past couple
of weeks, we thought it would be a good idea to shed a little light on the
situation with a debate on the subject. My first thought, of course, was
Mr. Buckley's famous Firing Line Special Debates.

In light of recent events, my program committee has encouraged me, and
Rodney Thayer, a member of the committee and a well known cryptographic
developer, to persue the idea more vigorously. :-)


Most of the discussions surrounding the control of encryption technology on
the net focus on the issue of privacy, and privacy, like, say, flight, is an
inherent good. Well, privacy is to most people, anyway...

We at DCSB believe, however, that the most significant impact of
cryptography on the net is not just privacy, it's economics. That is, it's
not "gee, we can fly" which made flight economically useful, or even
military use of aviation technology, but commercial activities like
barnstorming, mail planes, aviation racing, the DC3, and, eventually, coach
fare to Cleveland. :-). The same thing is true with encryption on the
internet. Most of us at DCSB believe that financial encryption on a
ubiquitous internet will prove to be the very cheapest way to effect any
transaction whatsoever, from pico-payments for internet switching, to
gigadollar project-bond issues and foriegn currency transactions.
(Actually, lots of us think there'll be private currencies, but that's
another story...)


Let me give you a pretty over-the-top example of what financial encryption
technology can do right now, without any further science. There is actual
code running which can do this.

Strong financial cryptography allows you to create unforgeable
cryptographic objects. It allows you to assign value to one of those
objects, just like an unforgeable dollar bill can be assigned the value of
a dollar. Because that object can be tested independantly of the person who
gave it to you (just like you can inspect a dollar bill), you don't care
who gives you money, as long as their money's good.

Notice that all forms of modern money, checks, debit and credit cards,
brokerage accounts, wire transfers and the like, require you to know
*who* you're doing business with, so that if they send you a fraudulent
debit or credit, you, or somebody you're associated with, can hunt them
down and send them to jail. None of that, including the jail part :-),
representing the force-monopoly of the modern nation state, is necessary
when you use these cryptographic objects to buy and sell with. Some
of us have even come to call these cryptographic objects "digital bearer
certificates", after the bearer bonds of not so long ago.

This type of financial encryption technology, some of us claim, will
probably be 1000 to 10,000 times cheaper to use, on a per-transaction basis,
than normal book entry settlement -- the kind you currently use when you
send your credit card over the net. The technology also allows us to do
cash settled business, at any distance, for anything you can send down a
wire: movies, words, music, legal advice, surgery instructions, whatever.

That's important, because old fashioned bearer bonds, which settled
instantly, were made obsolete not by tax policy (economics creates policy,
not the other way) as liberals would have you believe :-), but by the
economics of their transport and storage. That is, you couldn't shove a
bearer bond or a large value piece of cash down a wire to settle a trade.
The only way to do that was with book-entries, debits and credits, in other
words, and to do *that*, you had to biometrically identify all parties to a
trade, and, more to the point, you have to wait for the transaction to
percolate through the books of all the trade's parties and their
intermediaries in order for the trade to clear and settle.

This requirement for biometric identity and transaction logging is, of
course, at the root of all our present concerns about financial privacy, but
you can now see that we've put the cart before the horse: our privacy, or
lack of it, is directly caused by the efficiency of our transaction
mechanisms over paper methods. If there was a strictly private way to do
the same thing with the same or greater improvement that book-entry
settlement had over paper, it would happen, and lots of financial privacy
would result. In addition, if we didn't need the government as the ultimate
"error-handler" in our transaction protocols, we wouldn't "need" government
to regulate our markets -- and the rest of our lives -- by extension.

Now, as you've seen, digital bearer settlement opens up a pretty large can
of worms, but they're libertarian worms, :-), as the cover story of the
September 8th issue of Forbes points out.


A story, by the way, I had a hand in putting together, as Josh McHugh, the
Forbes reporter, pretty much told the story as I told it to him, and
interviewed the people I pointed him to. For my efforts, I even found
myself mentioned once in a sidebar with Walter Wriston and Alan Greenspan
;-). My mother, who, at 75, still sits on the New Mexico State Republican
Committee, was pretty happy about that. She's been wondering why I've been
wasting all this time on the net... :-).

Josh contacted me after reading a story in Wired's July issue on the First
International Conference on Financial Cryptography (FC97), which I helped
organize on Anguilla this past February. FC97 was covered by NTT Japan, the
New York Times, the Financial Times, Institutional Investor, and, of course,
(with yet another single mention in thousands of words ;-)) Wired. The web
site for FC98, this year's conference, is , if you'd like
to see that.


Anyway, I think that I fairly speak for the DCSB membership when I say that
government restrictions on cryptography, (and by extension, financial
cryptography) are restrictions on economics, which, communism has shown us,
policy makers restrict at their own peril. "Reality is not Optional", to
quote the title of one of Thomas Sowell's Forbes columns.


And, so, here's the debate I'd like to have. On the left, defenders of the
state's right to control crime and espionage (and its population), with
crypto-knowlegable people from law enforcement, the intellegence community
and government to back them up. And on the right, some well-known
freemarketers and crypto- um, anarchists. :-). Walter Wriston, former
chairman of Citicorp, for example, would be a good choice, so would David
Friedman, son of Milton. Even Phyllis Schlafly has articulated a strong
pro-cryptography position, though on first amendment grounds (which, by the
way, is the single thread keeping strong cryptography from outright
prohibition at the moment). I think that, given the last couple of articles
in Forbes on cryptography, (and the entire contents of Forbes ASAP every
month ;-)) Mr. Forbes would also agree to helping with the debate.

And Mr. Buckley, of course. I think, anyway. He has made some very strong
defenses of social conservativism over the years, but I expect that he
would come down in favor of deregulating strong cryptography, especially
for financial and economic reasons.


DCSB proposes a Special Firing Line Debate, in Faneuil Hall, site of
debates during the Revolution, and the venue for numerous modern debates
like this one.

Essentially, we'd get the room and the crowd, get you up to speed on the
issues if you'd like, and point you to some good people on both sides of the
issue to fill out the panel if you want them. You guys organize the debate
itself, and bring the cameras.


What can we do to help you guys make this happen? How soon can we get
started? :-).

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 25 21:47:51 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:47:51 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 14:54 -0700 9/25/97, John Smith wrote:
>passed, remember?  FBI's bill did not.  And all the opposition
>came together in a few days.  Nobody was ready for this.  Next year
>there will be more time to organize, and the opposition should be
>even stronger.

Of course the CDA was not necessary for national security. It would not
prevent the U.S. Capitol building from being blown up.

>That depends.  The law may still be good.  Who cares about this
>crypto center.  That's just another boondoggle.  The main thing is
>getting the export laws changed.

The main thing is preserving freedoms, both to use and export crypto.
Restrictions on use are not reasonable tradeoffs for relaxation of export
ctrls.

Also the coalition that came together can be fragmented if the domestic
restrictions are more subtle or go after individuals instead of businesses.

Your blind faith in the U.S. Congress is touching, but hardly realistic.

-Declan







From berezina at qed.net  Thu Sep 25 22:09:57 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:09:57 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <19970926050152253.AAA258@antigone>



From: Declan McCullagh :

>>
That's why it may take close to a year -- perhaps until next summer -- for
Congress to finish compromising away your rights to use whatever encryption
software you like.
<<

And next year *is* an election year. If nothing awful happens, it shouldn't be much of an issue, but sooner or later there'll be a big bang made by terrorists who've used crypto in the plotting, & then anyone who opposed the FBI line will get drubbed, perhaps fatally (i.e. they'll lose their seat). The single "best" reason for congresscritters to support GAK is CYA; supporting American business isn't a sufficient counterforce, especially when "big business" has become a dirty word for much of the American electorate, the affected companies seem to be doing damn well, & they aren't old pros at lobbying. Dead babies are more dramatic than annual reports (even if -- as we all know -- GAK will do little or nothing to prevent terrorism &c. Fairness counts for little in political campaigns...)

I agree with Declan -- obstructionism is the only way to go. Let's review the current situation:

a) Crypto know-how is globally distributed & impossible to annihilate.
b) There are no domestic US restrictions on encryption development or use.
c) There are onerous US restrictions of export of encryption software.

>From a cyberlibertarian/privacy advocate viewpoint this isn't so bad. It's true that lifting of export restrictions would get better crypto into more hands more quickly, but one doesn't have to be a Libertarian to believe that the market will fill that gap -- with non-US firms (possibly in collaboration with US ones) developing & marketing the technology; indeed, it's already happening.

>From a US business viewpoint, the situation *is* bad. There's a temptation to sell out b) in order to improve c). I'm not conspiracy-minded, but one should beware of differences in motive, particularly as we enter a convoluted, lobbying-heavy phase. What makes me optimistic is that GAKed crypto isn't likely to sell. Other than that, we'd be doomed.

Hopefully, legislation can be delayed until foreign companies have widely deployed commercial strong crypto, & US companies are demonstrably (to the person in the street) feeling the pain. Then GAK will be obviously pointless and stupid. It'll cost US jobs, which hurts (me, as an American, most of whose friends are American), but it's the best we can hope for, I think.

Silicon Valley -- the Flint, Michigan of the year 2000?

Paul

ujgdejoxenotejotmbgtang ircpqbgluzstizg







From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 25 22:18:30 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:18:30 +0800
Subject: Why no version of SAFE removes export ctrls, and all are    dangerous
Message-ID: <19970926050854.11798.qmail@hotmail.com>



>From: Declan McCullagh 
>Legislative history is not a guidepost I like to follow when 
considering
>whether a bill is a good one.

Fine, but what I quoted to you was the definition of generally
available, FROM THE TEXT OF THE BILL ITSELF.  It is in paragraph
5B of that part of the bill.  Look yourself, or read it below,
and you will see that it doesn't say anything about the software
having to be available overseas.  That part of your article was
mistaken.  I like your reporting so I don't want to over do this,
but you should know that the bill does not require what you
said:

            Sure,
            removing export controls completely would benefit
            everyone, but SAFE doesn't go that far: Only software
            "that is generally available" overseas may be exported.
            Which means if I invent a new data-scrambling method
            that nobody overseas has developed, I'm screwed.


>Note the Supremes largely rejected the
>government's arguments that the legislative history of the CDA 
justified it
>as a law. Instead you should look at the plain text of the law, which 
says
>software not requiring a license is:
>
>"(A) any software, including software with encryption capabilities
>                   "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
>                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or
>                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
>                    copyright or other protection is not available
>                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
>                    available to the public because it is generally
>                    accessible to the interested public in any form; or
>>
>>There's nothing about it having to be available overseas.  You are
>>probably confusing it with the hardware part:
>
>Nope, the "generally available" clause above talks about software. 
Reread
>the text of the bill, not some staffer's wet dreams about what they 
want it
>to say.

Section 5B from the text of the bill, again (formatted better):

  (B) the term `generally available' means, in the case of software
  (including software with encryption capabilities), software that is
  offered for sale, license, or transfer to any person without
  restriction, whether or not for consideration, including, but not
  limited to, over-the-counter retail sales, mail order transactions,
  phone order transactions, electronic distribution, or sale on
  approval;

Nothing about foreign software.


>Then there's the bit Tim was complaining about:
>
>       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary 
shall
>       authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption
>capabilities for
>       nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software 
of
>similar
>       capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
>controlled in fact by
>       United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence that
>such software will
>       be --
>
>              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use 
supporting
>              international terrorism;
>              "(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or
>              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United 
States
>              that may be required under this Act.
>
>Of course there's substantial evidence that PGP etc. will be used by
>unapproved people. That's another problem with SAFE.


So you agree with his interpretation that software must pass the tests
in both paragraph 2 and paragraph 3?  That doesn't seem right.  Para
2 says that no license is required for the kind of software
it describes.  Para 3 then provides a procedure for authorizing
the export of software which meets a different test (similar to
what is allowed for export to non-US financial institutions).  But
these are different tests and different software.

I say that paragraph 2 applies basically to "off the shelf" software,
commercial or public domain.  No license is required to export that.
That's why there are those definitions of generally available and
as-is.  Software which does not fall into these categories can then
be authorized for export under paragraph 3, except that the
authorization can be cancelled if it is diverted to terrorists.

If they wanted to diversion rules to apply to paragraph 2, they
would have written it that way.  But the way it is written it is
only the paragraph 3 software which can lose its authorization.

This is a very logical interpretation.  There is no point in
restricting the export of paragraph 2 software since it is available
to anyone in the US.  Any terrorist can walk into Egghead and buy
Netscape with strong crypto, or any disk encryption package.
This is an argument which cypherpunks have made for years, and they
are 100% right.  Why is it so hard to believe that the congressman
followed the same logic.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 25 22:47:39 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:47:39 +0800
Subject: Stupid warnings about "unsolicited e-mail"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 9:27 PM -0700 9/25/97, John Bishop wrote:

>sending a blank message to "moonwick-pgp at iquest.net".  All unsolicited
>e-mail sent to any of my addresses will incur a US$500 downloading &
>deletion charge.

Oh yeah? How do you plan to collect?

Maybe I'll see you in court.

(P.S. I did not "solicit" your e-mail to me....and my fee is 10 ounces of
gold, payable immediately.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From attila at hun.org  Thu Sep 25 23:23:59 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:23:59 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: <199709260542.XAA20750@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    and the worst part of it: the man is so far fucked that he is serious.

    the "man" must have been reprogrammed to forget _anything_ he learned
    about the inalienable rights of 'The Declaration of Independence' or
    the ringing words: "We the people, in order to forge a more perfect 
    union..." preamble of 'The United States Constitution'. 
    
    to stand before humanity, with a straight face and the audacity to
    state:

        "...raising rights for citizens to levels that were 
        unreasonable and that would have been foreign to 
        the nation's founding fathers."

    is beyond my ken --and cost me my lunch (just wiped off the
    screen...  forget the keyboard).

    where does our government hatch these asshole fascist police state 
    hacks?  Jefferson, Madison, Adams, Paine, etc. all practiced 
    cryptography, in fact Jefferson's thesis was considered 'elegent' for     
    almost 100 years.

    elitists, my ass! --just knowledgeable enough to know when we're 
    about to be fucked  --normally, I get kissed in this kind of 
    'bargain'.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


on or about 970925:2354 
    David HM Spector  purported to have reported:

+FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
+(09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
+By David Braun, TechWire 

+MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
+threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
+nondemocratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
+Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
+Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.

+Addressing a workshop on how far society should go in trading off
+privacy for effective law enforcement, McDonald said privacy activists
+had fought any balance in proposed encryption legislation.

+"Such absolute positions threaten not only electronic searches but also
+conventional searches for data that has been encrypted," McDonald said.

+Absolute positions on privacy were "pernicious on several levels,"
+McDonald added.

+The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
+rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
+have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers. Extreme privacy
+positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
+presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt the
+views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court, McDonald
+said.

+McDonald's statements came a day after a key committee of the U.S.
+House of Representatives rejected an FBI-supported proposal that would
+have compelled the makers of encryption products to include features
+that would enable law enforcement agencies to gain immediate and, if
+necessary, covert access to unscramble any coded data.

+Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
+government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
+mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

+"Based on a theory of potential government abuse, important tools
+commonly used are to be restricted or embargoed," McDonald said.

+McDonald said efforts in the United States to enhance effective law
+enforcement search and seizure capabilities had proceeded without
+harming legitimate privacy concerns.

+In the area of electronic surveillance, McDonald said, privacy
+enhancements had frequently received treatment "superior to that
+required under our Constitution."

+With minor exceptions, neither the laws nor the cases decided regarding
+effective law enforcement or privacy had come about with the view that
+either were absolute in their nature, McDonald said. Law enforcement
+measures had been tempered by considerations of personal privacy, and
+privacy laws had been balanced with effective law enforcement.

+Notwithstanding the substantial threats posed by national and
+international organized crime, drug cartels, and terrorists, the United
+States had remained true to its Constitutional moorings, and its
+commitment to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald said.

+"When people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are
+fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme
+Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and
+procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and
+balanced," McDonald said.

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Thu Sep 25 23:50:09 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:50:09 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: <38a7c6c7f7111726d6cad0ff9b382ef6@anon.efga.org>




All governments are built on lies.

All organizations are built on lies.



CM







From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 26 00:10:23 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:10:23 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <7e4f533938c10942e5d1ef49ca8e16da@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May wrote:
>At 2:58 PM -0700 9/25/97, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
>>like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
>>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
>>old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
>>software?
>>
>>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.
>
>Think about a zero latency. How would mixing then occur? How would the
>mapping between incoming and outcoming messages be obscured?
>
>Latency, per se, is of course not the key issue. Mixing is. 

It depends on your application.  Right now, it's hard to get messages
through the remailer network in good time *and* the security isn't all
that high.

Increased traffic would give us more options as far as mixing and the
like.  But increased traffic won't happen until we have usable
remailer network.  Right now it's sort of usable, but only for the
dedicated, and there aren't many of us.  I seem to be the only
persistent authenticated nym who posts with any frequency.

Tools which are not used do not get improved.

>* throwaway accounts, and yet with some robustness or reputation capital
>backing them

One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
in NetWorld like everyone else.

Note that this does not require one to trust the operator of the
machine - all they have is a public key and no information of your
identity.  This should be easy to set up.

>* increased traffic at all levels
>
>* a profit motive for remailers, using "digital postage" (though this may
>work against the second point, having more traffic)

If digital postage results in remailer operators making money, this
should increase the quality of the remailer network.  A high quality
remailer network should increase traffic.

Once we have a high quality high traffic remailer network which is
profitable (!!!), well, things could really start to cook.  A quarter
per message per hop seems reasonable at this time.  The annual revenue
hits a million dollars if a little over 10,000 messages a day are
handled by the network.  This figure does not seem unattainable.

Those who find a quarter is too much should start remailers.

This is a little off the wall, but if there was a significant market
for remailers, some organizations might start affinity remailers.
That is, if you like the ACLU you can give them money by routing your
messages through their remailer.  We tend to like the people we trust.

Another feature that would be nice would be to be able to define the
message id in advance.  Were this available it would be possible to
send a message to all three cypherpunks nodes simultaneously to
maximize its propagation and to ensure reliability.  Were this
supported for Usenet gateways, it would be possible to gate the list
through the remailers such that the person doing the gating would be
hard to identify.

Also, BCC fields would be nice.  I don't know a way to post a message
to the cypherpunks list and bcc: it at the same time to the coderpunks
list, but it would be real useful.  (The idea is to let people on
coderpunks know about a relevant topic, but keep it on the main list.)

>* more chaining tools for average users (on Windows and Macintosh machines,
>using standard mailers)

It's probably better to take the tools as far they will go for
ourselves and not worry too much about evangelizing right now.  Once
the core technologies are in place and are working reliably, we will
be in a stronger position to take things to The People, if it doesn't
happen of its own accord.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCsj3JaWtjSmRH/5AQH2mAf+PCobu6dVqOYFCBsiXFITbKDAWDHpIdHr
yOSvSIIK2UI7UYCGq16ECLAvSqyVUQ2xuxVC729CQ61tbHYszcQ+j2+KaorJKREi
HmpvKmmQo7fwbeURNdDqIXxxObZDaJMuItqPeMO1QHVt7zPyjh44UUuYZjOV633Z
94LlalFRNyHKD8Q4GCBpsTQ+T1evVYKgHpx5HL2H8hJF2ELMdwJ+JXyU+7xMg0Pe
qNo4M39bJG4REQoJ6xZ5xFQp7Vs3PdloLAd7wyencwOnpWCUFzZ53WjM6qdDiLzT
9yZNT5n1ZqM0kf8DikOv4ZsGOiP4E+aRqtJsgyt4tppCpjErk5j3GA==
=Birf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From minow at apple.com  Fri Sep 26 00:44:48 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:44:48 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: 



>Addressing a workshop on how far society should go in trading off
>privacy for effective law enforcement, McDonald said privacy activists
>had fought any balance in proposed encryption legislation.

> ... Extreme privacy
>positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
>presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
>the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
>McDonald said.

This reminds me of the state legislature that tried to change the
value of pi to something simpler in order to help students
struggling with their homework. Fortunately, someone had the
good sense to bring in a "knowing mathematics cognoscenti" to
pound some sense into the politicians.

>Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
>government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
>mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

Where is Thomas Jefferson when you really need him?

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com







From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Fri Sep 26 01:06:37 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:06:37 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, David HM Spector wrote:
> FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
> (09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
> By David Braun, TechWire 
> The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
> rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
> have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers.
[...]
> Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
> government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
> mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.

Somebody please tell me that this is a forged quote.... We are now
"privacy extremists"? What's next? "Privacy militia"?

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Fri Sep 26 01:17:28 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:17:28 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Martin Minow wrote:
> 
> This reminds me of the state legislature that tried to change the
> value of pi to something simpler in order to help students
> struggling with their homework. Fortunately, someone had the
> good sense to bring in a "knowing mathematics cognoscenti" to
> pound some sense into the politicians.

The University of California, now prohibited from making race a factor in
the admissions process, is currently proposing to ignore SAT scores
altogether to improve minority enrollmnent...

--Lucky






From mayani at ingenia.fr  Fri Sep 26 03:30:19 1997
From: mayani at ingenia.fr (Pascal Mayani)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:30:19 +0800
Subject: Its working read this, give it a chance
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970926095101.0069ca18@100.1.4.25>



Ouais c'est vieux comme le monde le principe: ca s'appelle une pyramide et
il n'y a que le gars en haut qui se fait un sacre pactole. En plus c'est
parfaitement illegal.

And now, ladies & gentlemen, let's talk in english :

Hello suckers of *intofild at aol.com*,

This nice principle of sending money to the last name on a list through
the INTERNET is the ultimate variation of the pyramidal game...
First before carrying on with the demonstration, people should know that
this kind of "gime your money you sucker, I'll know how to use it" is
illegal in most industrial countries...

You can't win for a very good reason. This game can be seen as a pyramid :

					 The chief
					   / | \
				     a few accomplices
					////||||\\\\
				suckers sending their money

As you can see, the only people to earn money in the process are the one on
the top of this pyramid, the others just send their money to the top of it
and can hardly win a kopek.
The idea is very simple, usually on the list, you'll find unknown people
whom you would suppose to be some ordinary participants of the game, in
fact in most cases they're the accomplices or the chief himself. 

The original situation:
#1 accomplice 1
#2 accomplice 2
#3 accomplice 3
#4 chief

You send five bucks to the chief...

#1 you
#2 accomplice 1
#3 accomplice 2
#4 accomplice 3

You send your money to accomplice 3

Now you ask twenty of your friends to do so:

#1 one of your friend
#2 you
#3 accomplice 1
#4 accomplice 2

Now this people will ask friends of them to send money in their turn:

#1 a friend'a friend 
#1 one of your friend
#2 you
#3 accomplice 1

They will send money to accomplice 1...

This group of people, the accomplices and the chief will get:
20*20*20*20*5= $800 000

(And of course, it's could be more profitable, you can't know how many
people answered at the first stage).

If you hope to reach the fifth stage... Read the demonstration once again !

So don't be stupid, don't even send a peanut to these suckers...








From usura at sabotage.org  Fri Sep 26 04:50:27 1997
From: usura at sabotage.org (Alex de Joode)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:50:27 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <199709261114.NAA25455@basement.replay.com>



Anonymous sez:


: According to Raph's remailer stats, the remailers have widely varying
: latencies.  Given that only a few remailers have latencies which are
: acceptably low, the list of usable remailers is quite low.

: If the user of the remailer, Monty Cantsin for example, signs his
: messages, a fairly accurate measure of total transit time is obtained.
: The total transit time gives clues to the remailers which were
: actually used in the chain.  In an of itself, this may not comprise
: the user, but combined with other weaknesses it will cause the
: attacker to be significantly more confident of identification
: hypotheses.

: The remailers should all have about the same latency.  0 seconds seems
: like a good Schelling point.  What would it take to reduce remailer
: latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
: old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
: software?


Most remailers support a feature called 'latency', so one can
choose the latency one desires for a message.

ie:

::
Anon-To: username at host-name-here.nl
Latency: +00:00

This message will be remailed imediately, no queing etc.

--
  Alex de Joode | usura at SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.






From pooh at efga.org  Fri Sep 26 05:08:40 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:08:40 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <7e4f533938c10942e5d1ef49ca8e16da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926074513.03949b90@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 03:03 AM 9/26/97 -0400, Monty Cantsin wrote:
>Right now it's [the remailer network] sort of usable, but only for the
>dedicated, and there aren't many of us.  I seem to be the only
>persistent authenticated nym who posts with any frequency.
...
>One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
>to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
>nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
>encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
>alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
>nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
>normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
>in NetWorld like everyone else.

Your desired functionality seems to be describing the operation of a nym
server, which you are not using.  With a nym server, your email address
would be something like cantsin at anon.efga.org, rather than
anon at anon.efga.org.  You do not get this capability when you use the
Georgia Cracker remailer, you would have to use the Redneck Remailer
instead.  There are currently hundreds of ordinary looking email addresses
on our nym server.  While Monty Cantsin may be a pseudonym you post under,
it is not a "nym" in remailer network terms.  Once you get a nym you can
also receive replies anonymously.

More information about how to get a nym can be found at
http://anon.efga.org/anon


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 26 20:25:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Barksdale editorial
Message-ID: <199709270325.FAA14894@basement.replay.com>


Washington May Crash the Internet Economy

By Jim Barksdale

The U.S. computer industry is the envy of of the world. But it may not be long before we are asking ourselves: Why did we let our dominance in the software business slip away to competitors in other countries? That could well be the consequence of encryption legislation proposed by FBI Director Louis Freeh and supported by key congressional Republicans and members of the Clinton administration.

Encryption is simply a mathematical way to scramble (encrypt) and unscramble (decrypt) digital information during transmission or storage. It is increasingly used to protect not just personal communications and medical and financial records, but also all the intellectual property businesses maintain on computer networks.

Protecting this valuable information has become a highly competitive business around the globe, yet U.S. industry has been limited in how it can compete, because U.S.-based companies are not allowed to export anything stronger than 40-bit (or in some cases 56-bit) encryption. (The strength of encryption is largely a function of the length of its software "keys" measured in bits, the zeros and ones that comprise computer data.) Foreign producers, however, can distribute encryption products with 128-bit key length, so-called strong encryption, which is considered unbreakable by today's computing standards.

The FBI has proposed to worsen this situation by also limiting the use of strong encryption in our domestic market. The FBI's proposal, in the form of the Oxley-Manton amendment to a House bill originally drafted to liberalize export controls on encryption, would require makers of encryption software to provide the government with immediate access to the information in a computer or network without the knowledge of the owner or user of the computer. We could still provide encryption products, but their value would be compromised considerably by a "backdoor" for law enforcement agencies to access information in the computer.

We understand and share the FBI's concern about terrorists and other criminals using encryption to protect their activities from law enforcement surveillance, but the FBI proposal does not solve the problem. The criminals will still be able to buy advanced encryption technology outside the U.S., where it is freely available today.

The encryption plan will cause bigger problems for law-abiding companies, however. We have some of the best software engineers on the planet at Netscape, but we simply do not believe it is possible to comply with the proposed FBI standard. If it became law, the federal government could put us in jail if we could not guarantee immediate access to data in everyone's computer. This could only result in having us remove valuable information security features from our products. But the Internet needs just the opposite: more security.

As legal scholars have pointed out, the FBI proposal poses grave constitutional concerns. An additional problem is the likely result of the FBI plan: more crime. By taking away encryption as we know it today, the FBI proposal would expose computer users to assault by hackers intent on economic espionage, blackmail and public humiliation. At a recent congressional hearing, one witness testified that with $1 billion and 20 people using existing technology, he could efffectively shut down the nation's information infrastructure, including all computer, phone and banking networks. Another witness said he could do it for $100 million.

The solution is to ensure that our public and private infrastructure is secured through strong encryption and other means. The FBI cannot catch every hacker. But there will be fewer and fewer of them trying to penetrate sensitive networks if those networks are adequately protected and communications secured through the use of strong encryption.

Without the privacy and security that strong encryption guarantees, consumers and businesses will refrain from using the Internet, greatly damaging our economy. The Internet already contributes 1.5% to the U.S. gross national product. Estimates suggest the total value of goods and services traded over the Internet could reach $8 billion this year and $330 billion in five years. The U.S. holds an estimated 75% of the global software market and roughtly the same share of the global Internet economy, according to studies by the Global Internet Project, an international trade group.

The FBI proposal, if adopted, could end this economic phenomenon overnight. The good news is that the House Commerce Committee voted against this proposal by 35-16 on Wednesday. However, similar amendments have already been approved in the House National Security and Intelligence committees. It's now up to the House Rules Committee-whose charman, Gerald Solomon (R., N.Y.), favors limiting encryption technology-to reconcile the votes of the five committees that have considered various forms of the bill. Perhaps most ominously, the Drug Enforcement Administration and the deputy Treasury secretary for financial crimes yesterday announced their support for the FBI's proposal.

What we need instead is a voluntary approach, U.S. companies should continue to cooperate with law enforcement authorities in provideing technological expertise and emergency assistance. Because companies like mine are committed to dooing this, our country will be more secure. If government policies end our leadership in encryption technology, where will our law enforcement and national security officials turn for help?

Mr. Barksdale is president and CEO of Netscape Communications Corp.




 






From sandfort at crl.com  Fri Sep 26 20:45:24 1997
From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:45:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PARTY!
Message-ID: 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi Folks,

Here's an invitation to my latest and greatest costume party ever.  
Be there or be square.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                     AREA 51+ PARTY
                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

             The Pleasure of Your Company
            is Cordially Requested at the:

                    Third Occasional
                   Anarcho-Dilettante
             Pick-Your-Own-Damned-There,
            Masquerade Ball, Talent Show
               And Halloween Rehearsal

7:00pm Saturday October 13--3:00am Sunday October 14

             650 Kenwyn Road (at McKinley)
                  Oakland, California

        Loads of things happened on October 18.
       We're not going to tell you which one to
    commemorate.  That's up to you.  Check out the
 birthdays and historical events listed below.  Pick
      one or go with something else.  Your call.

      But no matter what theme you pick, it IS a
      masquerade ball, so you MUST wear a costume
         (or at least a mask).  NO EXCEPTIONS.

       (Please, adults only.  We regret that our
        house is very unsuitable for children.)

                   THE ENTERTAINMENT

  At 8:00pm there will be a Dance Recital featuring
         Rainbeau, Gracie, Tish and Blythe.  
           You DO NOT want to miss this.

     At 9:00pm there will be a Guest Talent Show.
    If you can sing, dance, tell a joke or pull a
    rabbit out of a hat, we IMPLORE you to sign up
    for this featured event.  There will be prizes!

                    CALL FOR TAPES

    If you did not like the music at the previous 
      parties, we encourage you to bring a tape. 
         We will play them for thirty minutes 
        or until those actually dancing revolt. 
              The default music will be 
       Digital Music Express Dance Music Channel 
        (or 70's disco by dance floor request).

                      DOOR PRIZES

      Around Midnight, there will be a drawing for
          valuable and/or unique Door Prizes.
             (You must be present to win.)

                      COMESTIBLES

        There will be some snacks and soft drinks, 
        but if you are really hungry, it might be 
           a good idea to eat before you come.

                        B.Y.O.B.

      (Smoke'em if ya got'em, but outside, please.
          the house is a smoke-free zone.)

                         RSVP

     Whether or not you are planning to attend, 
 we want to hear from you.  Please give the hosts 
a call so we can plan on your presence OR absence.

  Invited guests may bring additional celebrants
 WITH PRIOR PERMISSION OF THE HOSTS.  This means
 you must call a host and get permission for EACH
 of the people you intend to bring.  The house is
big, but it is possible to have too many attendees.

                      YOUR HOSTS

       Head Anarchist in Charge, Sandy Sandfort
            510-839-3441/sandfort at crl.com

      House Hosts with the Most, Gracie & Zarkov
              510-832-2044/emyrt at aol.com

    Web page host Sameer Parekh and C2Net Software
              510-547-3617/sameer at c2.net

    P.S.  THERE WILL BE A LATE FEE OF 10 CENTS PER 
    MINUTE FOR EACH MINUTE YOU ARRIVE AFTER 8:00PM.  
 The party starts at 7:00, so you get an our for free.  
        Late fees will be used to defray costs.  
         (This is no joke.  More than $100 was 
      collected at each of the last two parties.)

   Pictures from the 2nd Occasional Masquerade Ball 
                    may be found at:

           http://www.c2.net/~sandy/web.htm


OCTOBER 18 IN HISTORY

This is "Any Way You Look at It" Day! 

On this day in 1961, Henri Matisse's painting, "Le Bateau" 
went on display in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City.  
For six days, nobody realized it was hanging upside down.

1842 - Samuel Finley Breese Morse, laid his first telegraph 
cable in New York Harbor between the Battery and Governor's 
Island.

1892 - The first long-distance telephone communication was 
established between the mayors of New York and Chicago.

1924 - The term "Four Horsemen" was used in a "New York Herald 
Tribune" article by columnist Grantland Rice.  The referenced 
Four Horsemen were the backfield of the University of Notre Dame 
which had beaten Army, 13-7. 

1935 - Victor record #25236 was recorded this day by Tommy Dorsey 
and his Orchestra. It would become one of the most familiar Big 
Band themes of all time: "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You". 

1943 - The first broadcast of "Perry Mason" was presented on CBS 
Radio. In the 15-minute (Monday-Friday) shows, Perry was played by 
Barlett Robinson, Santos Ortega, Donald Briggs and John Larkin. 
Larkin played the role the longest and was reportedly very 
disappointed when Raymond Burr got the gig on TV (1957). 

1944 - The epic book, "Forever Amber", was published.  This 
historic-romance novel was written by Kathleen Windsor. Although 
the book was very popular among women between the ages of 12 and 
24, it was considered scandalous to be seen reading it; a reaction 
that lasted at least another three decades. 

1956 - Football commissioner Bert Bell turned thumbs down on the 
use of radio-equipped helmets by NFL quarterbacks.  

1971 - The final issue of "Look" magazine was published. It had 
been a must-see publication every week for 34 years. 

1977 - Reggie Jackson made history and earned the nickname, 
Mr. October.  Regg-a-roo (as Howard Cosell called him) hit three 
home runs on three successive pitches leading the Yankees to an
8-4 thrashing of the LA Dodgers in Game 6 of the World Series. 

1979 - Following extensive renovation to return Radio City Music 
Hall to the look and feel of its 1931 Art Deco glory, the 
venerable New York City theatre reopened. "Snow White and the 
Seven Dwarfs" was the first live presentation. 

1983 - Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton received some gold to add 
to their collections --for their smash, "Islands in the Stream". 


OCTOBER 18 BIRTHDAYS

1854 - Salomon Andree (explorer: ill-fated North Pole expedition) 

1859 - Henri Bergson (Nobel prize-winning philosopher, author: 
Creative Evolution) 

1898 - Lotte Lenya (Karoline Blamauer) (Tony Award-winning singer, 
actress: Threepenny Opera; From Russia with Love, Semi-Tough, 
Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone) 

1902 - Miriam Hopkins (actress: The Children's Hour, The Chase, 
Carrie, Barbary Coast) 

1906 - James Brooks (artist: Flight: 235 ft. mural at La Guardia 
National Airport, NY; abstract expressionist exhibit: Ninth Street 
Exhibition) 

1918 - Bobby Troup (actor: Emergency; singer, musician, TV host: 
Stars of Jazz; married to singer, Julie London) 

1919 - Pierre Elliott Trudeau (Prime Minister of Canada)

1925 - Melina Mercouri (actress: Never on Sunday, Once is Not 
Enough, Topkapi; Greece's Minister of Culture) 

1926 - Chuck (Charles Edward Anderson) Berry (singer: Lifetime 
Achievement Grammy; Maybellene, Roll Over Beethoven, School Day, 
Rock & Roll Music, Sweet Little Sixteen, Johnny B. Goode, My 
Ding-A-Ling; in film: Rock, Rock, Rock) 

1927 - George C. Scott (Academy Award-winning actor: Patton; 
Anatomy of a Murder, The Day of the Dolphin, The Hanging Tree, 
Taps, Oklahoma Crude, The Prince and the Pauper, The Murders in 
the Rue Morgue, Malice) 

1928 - Keith Jackson (sportscaster: ABC Sports, Wide World of 
Sports) 

1933 - Peter Boyle (Emmy Award-winning actor: The X-Files; Taxi 
Driver, While You were Sleeping, Young Frankenstein, Midnight 
Caller, From Here to Eternity [TV]) 

1933 - Forrest Gregg (Pro Football Hall of Famer: Green Bay 
Packers offensive tackle: Super Bowl I, II; Dallas Cowboys: Super 
Bowl VI; head coach: Cleveland Browns, Cincinnati Bengals: AFC 
Coach of the Year [1981]: Super Bowl XVI; Green Bay Packers; 
Southern Methodist University Athletic Director) 

1934 - Inger Stevens (Stensland) (actress: The Farmer's Daughter, 
Madigan, A Guide for the Married Man, Hang 'Em High) 

1937 - Boyd Dowler (football: Green Bay Packers wide receiver: 
Super Bowl I, II) 

1939 - Mike Ditka (Pro & College Football Hall of Famer: Chicago 
Bears Rookie of the Year; Philadelphia Eagles; Dallas Cowboys 
tight end: Super Bowl V, VI; Chicago Bears head coach:  Super Bowl 
XX; TV sports analyst: NBC Sports) 

1943 - Willie Horton (baseball: Detroit Tigers outfielder) 

1947 - Laura Nyro (singer: Up on the Roof; songwriter: Wedding 
Bell Blues, Blowin' Away, And When I Die, Stoney End, Stoned Soul 
Picnic, Sweet Blindness, Eli's Coming, Time and Love, Save the
Country) 

1950 - Wendy Wasserstein (writer: The Heidi Chronicles, Bachelor 
Girls) 

1951 - Pam Dawber (actress: Mork & Mindy, My Sister Sam) 

1952 - Jerry Royster (baseball: LA Dodgers pitcher) 

1960 - Jean Claude Van Damme (actor: Kickboxer, Universal Soldier, 
Double Impact, Hard Target, Nowhere to Run, Predator II) 

1961 - Erin Moran (actress: Happy Days, Joanie Loves Chachi, The 
Don Rickles Show, Daktari, Galaxy of Terror, Twirl, Watermelon 
Man, How Sweet It Is!) 

1961 - Wynton Marsalis (Grammy Award-winning musician: jazz/
classical trumpet:  Think of One [1983]; played on: Father & Sons; 
in orchestra: Sweeney Todd; composer: TV theme song for Shannon's 
Deal) 


OCTOBER 18 CHART TOPPERS

1957 
Chances Are/The Twelfth of Never - Johnny Mathis 

Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley 

Be-Bop Baby/Have I Told You Lately That I Love You - Ricky Nelson 

Wake Up Little Susie - The Everly Brothers 


1965 
Yesterday - The Beatles 

Treat Her Right - Roy Head 

You've Got Your Troubles - The Fortunes 

Behind the Tear - Sonny James 

1973 
Half-Breed - Cher 

Ramblin' Man - The Allman Brothers Band 

Angie - The Rolling Stones 

Ridin' My Thumb to Mexico - Johnny Rodriguez 

1981 
Arthur's Theme (Best that You Can Do) - Christopher Cross 

For Your Eyes Only - Sheena Easton 

Private Eyes - Daryl Hall and John Oates 

Step by Step - Eddie Rabbitt 


THIRD SATURDAY IN OCTOBER

Sweetest Day

Frabjous Day

Ironman Triathalon


MISC.

Persons Day (Canada)

St. Luke's Day (patron of doctors, painters, glassmakers, artists, 
butchers, notaries,
sculptors)

Festival of Poetic Terrorism

Alaska Day

Pandrosos (Greek all-refreshing Goddess)

Great Horn Fair (Kent, UK)

National Chocolate Cupcake Day

Chile Independence Day

No Beard Day

Lukesmas

International Credit Union Day 

Ivory Soap invented

1st Art school opened

Sandblasting patented

BBC Radio established (1922)

H.E.W. banned cyclamates

Brotherhood of the Cooperative Commonwealth founded (1895)

Puerto Rico became US Colony (1898)

Lincoln shaved off his beard

Hi and Lois comic strip began (1954)

Water Pollution Control Act passed (1972)

XYZ Affair

Citroen 2CV automobile introduced (1948)

Roseanne debuted (1988)

1st War Crimes trial began (1945)

Disney's Jungle Book premiered

John Lennon and Yoko Ono arrested for marijuana possession 
(London; 1968)

Rules of American Football 1st formulated (1873)

US attacked Iranian oil rig in retaliation for gunboat attacks 
(1987)

International Court of Justice at the Hague announced (1907)

UK declared Canadian women to be "persons" (1929)
 
Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes forcing many protestants 
(aka Huguenots) to flee France (1685)

Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculed in the press for inviting black 
leader Booker T. Washington to the White House (1901)

men to be "persons" (1929)
 
Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes forcing many protestants 
(aka Huguenots) to flee France (1685)

Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculed in the press for inviting black 
leader Booker T. Washington to the White House (1901)







From spector at zeitgeist.com  Fri Sep 26 06:05:29 1997
From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:05:29 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709261237.IAA05968@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>



Re: Pi.... 

I believe the enlightened Legislator who attempted to legislate Pi was
none other than Jesse Helms (although this could be a legislative
myth!) and when Ol'Jesse proposed it (because he was "sick of all these
egg-heads with their big numbers") John Glenn said something on the
order of ' if your legislation passes Senator, I wouldn't want to
driver over any bridges in your state!'

But more to the point, this is more of the divide and conquer strategy
that worked so well for the Reagan-era republicans.  Ridicule what you
wish to destroy, give no quarter to other opinion, and repeat a lie so
often that it becomes the truth.  Nothing new here.  "We" just have
yet to get organized enough to use the same tactic in return and for
the moment Freeh & Co. have much more reliable and regular access to
the mainstream press who are willing to print whatever they say.


What we need, really, is a good advertising agency...


_DHMS


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector at zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.580.7193
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells






From trei at process.com  Fri Sep 26 06:32:01 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:32:01 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
Message-ID: <199709261309.GAA17871@rigel.cyberpass.net>



[lot of snipping]
Adam Back  writes:
> 
> John Smith  writes:
> >
> > That's easy for you to say, there in England.  You don't have these
> > export controls, right?  
> 
> We have different export controls.  You can export what you want
> electronically right now.  And, so I hear, the exporter is defined as
> the person who downloads from your web site, so lots of hits from Iraq
> is no problem.  Start to talk about tangible things and you require a
> license. 
 
> Adam

This is my favorite example of the Kafka-esque absurdity of
export controls

>From England, I can export strong crypto electronically with no 
problem. The same crypto, printed as source code, is restricted.

>From the US, I can export printed strong crypto with no problem.
The same crypto, in electronic form, is export restricted.

Both sides claim to have a rational, well-thought out policy.

Peter Trei







From 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Sep 26 06:40:17 1997
From: 3umoelle at informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:40:17 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <7e4f533938c10942e5d1ef49ca8e16da@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



> One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
> to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
> nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
> encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
> alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
> nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
> normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
> in NetWorld like everyone else.
> 
> Note that this does not require one to trust the operator of the
> machine - all they have is a public key and no information of your
> identity.  This should be easy to set up.

That is what nym servers (denoted as "alpha" and "newnym" in the
remailer lists) do.  See http://anon.efga.org/anon for more
information.






From adam at homeport.org  Fri Sep 26 07:00:21 1997
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:00:21 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709261331.JAA07462@homeport.org>



This may go against your religious wishes, but listing your children
with SSNs of public figures may allow you to bypass the IRS computer
that checks if the child has a valid SSN listed, without getting SSNs
that 'belong to' your children.

"Yes, I did name my children Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, in the
hopes that they'll grow up facist."

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| 
| 
| ---------- Forwarded message ----------
| Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
| From: "David C. Treibs" 
| To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid at ktc.com)>
| Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
| 
|                                         David C. Treibs
|                                         Fredericksburg, TX 78624
|                                         sirdavid at ktc.com
| 
| Hi.
| 
| We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
| 
| For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
| numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.
| 
| Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
| for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
| sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
| exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
| to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
| children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
| from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
| children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
| claiming legitimate dependents.
| 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From somebody at somewhere.com  Fri Sep 26 22:28:41 1997
From: somebody at somewhere.com (somebody at somewhere.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:28:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New Member Registration
Message-ID: <199709270607.BAA02781@fs1.sccsi.com>


A Message From Mr. T
Account Login: killer
Account Password: instinct
This message has been auto-generated - No need to reply






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 07:56:33 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:56:33 +0800
Subject: Congress to compromise away crypto-rights, from ComDaily
Message-ID: 



[From ComDaily, a Washington trade publication. --Declan]

---

Markey/White Prevails

HOUSE PANEL APPROVES ENCRYPTION BILL IN REBUFF TO CLINTON, FBI

[...]

Rules Committee Chmn. Solomon (R-N.Y.) originally had
co-sponsored bill, then dropped off and urged rejection of
Goodlatte measure, declaring it harmful to national
security.  He said in letter to Commerce Committee members
that bill wouldn't get to House floor unless it includes
provisions with "crucial key recovery language" similar to
those in Oxley-Manton proposals and in Intelligence
Committee.  Spokesman said that while Rules panel could
send any version it wished to floor, Solomon wants to try
to work out compromise that recognizes national security
concerns.  Panel spokesman said Goodlatte should "be more
flexible and work out" differences with Intelligence
Committee.  Intelligence Chmn. Goss (R-Fla.) also is on
Rules Committee.

House Telecom Subcommittee Chmn. Tauzin (R-La.), who had
tried to find compromise before markup, said after evening
session that there would have to be more compromises.  He
proposed amendment to set up 5-member commission that would
have 180 days to study encryption and make recommendations.
 Tauzin said that "something will have to be worked out
that satisfies law enforcement."  He said "we're not
finished" with bill, said it was possible that study
proposal could emerge as compromise if no other agreement
could be reached:  "Just like there's no predicting where
the technology will be, there's no predicting where this
will end up."

[...]

Oxley said Thurs. his amendment lost because:  "The
Commerce Committee was being the Commerce Committee."  In
protecting its jurisdiction, with eye toward electronic
commerce, legislators paid attention to computer industry,
including Gates, he said.  However, he said "the bill isn't
going anywhere" unless law enforcement and national
security concerns are addressed.  Oxley said he hadn't
asked Solomon to hold up legislation, noting that
Intelligence and National Security panel bills have
provisions "stronger than mine."

[...]



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 08:03:42 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:03:42 +0800
Subject: USA Today on encryption; FBI's Louis Freeh responds
Message-ID: 




-----------------

Subject:          USA Today/Freeh
   Date:          Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:08:05 -0400
  From:           Dave Banisar 


USA TODAY

Our View

September 26, 1997

Computer privacy at risk if FBI gets the codes

   Thinking about protecting your computer files with high-quality
encryption?

   Well, act fast. The FBI is out to stop you.

   Not only will you get less security if the agency gets its way,
but you'll pay more for software to protect your personal financial,
medical and other records.

   Until now, restrictions on good encryption technology have covered only
exports. But the agency wants to outlaw the making, sale
and distribution here of all codes it can't break. It would require
any firm offering such programs to hand decoding keys over to
third parties so the FBI and other agencies could get hold of
them without your knowledge.

   It's the electronic equivalent of demanding that Americans put
copies of all their records in some federal depository.

   One House committee has passed the FBI plan. Another committee
failed this week to insert it in a bill aimed at lifting export
curbs. But more attempts are sure.

   The FBI says encryption controls are for your security. Otherwise, drug
lords and terrorists can hide behind strong encryption to
evade the law. In fact, lack of powerful encryption programs is
leaving the vast majority of Americans far less secure.

   That's because of the existing restriction on exports. U.S. software and
computer makers find it too costly to make one product for
here and another for export. So, they don't provide the best encryption
possible.

   The Justice Department reports computer security breaches cost
U.S. business and consumers $ 7 billion a year. And domestic software and
computer makers are losing sales to foreign firms. Estimated
price tag by 2000: $ 60 billion a year, 240,000 jobs.

   Domestic limits would only add costs. The Congressional Budget
Office estimates that buyers will pay $ 5 to $ 10 more for software,
up to $ 2 billion a year, to implement the FBI's system. And 11
of the world's top cryptographers in May warned that the FBI plan
creates targets for criminals by establishing centers where billions

of secrets are held.

   And for what? Smart crooks easily can evade police efforts by
using unbreakable foreign encryption available over the Internet
or by removing incriminating evidence by pressing their computer's
delete key.

   The National Research Council, in an 18-month study for Congress,
suggested a better course for government to meet everyone's security
concerns:

   -- Provide law enforcement money to study surveillance alternatives.

   -- Ease the curb on encryption exports.

   -- Leave domestic encryption alone.

   In plain, unencrypted text: Don't stop Americans from protecting
themselves.
----------------------------------------------
USA TODAY

Let law keep weapons

Louis J. Freeh


   In this time of electronic commerce, e-mail and private information
routinely stored in computers, the availability of powerful encryption is
essential. No one in law enforcement disputes that.

   All of law enforcement is also in total agreement on one aspect
of encryption: The widespread use of uncrackable encryption will
devastate our ability to fight crime and prevent terrorism. It
will render two of our most important investigative techniques,
court-ordered electronic surveillance and search and seizure,
a nullity in many instances.

   Without a balanced approach that accommodates commercial interests,
privacy and public safety concerns, criminals and terrorists will
be able to shield themselves from court orders used to obtain
critical evidence and prevent the worst crimes.

   How important are the techniques? Law enforcement used electronic
surveillance to disrupt terrorists mixing bombs to blow up buildings
and assassinate political figures. A computer was used to store
evidence of a plot to blow up 11 U.S. airline flights. Police
use electronic surveillance to combat drugs, gang violence and
kidnapping.

   Indeed, state and local law enforcement authorities account for
50% of all the electronic surveillance court orders in the United
States. These are what will be lost if, despite valid court orders,
law enforcement is unable to decrypt that which criminals have
encrypted.

   We are not asking that advances in encryption be abandoned or
that privacy rights be threatened. Nor are we asking for any increase in
law enforcement's authority to intercept people's conversations.
We only ask that the careful balance of the Fourth Amendment not
be inadvertently tipped in favor of criminals and terrorists in
the rush to satisfy the marketplace.

   Many companies are urging Congress to let them determine the extent to
which public safety is protected and have expressed a desire
that government be more sympathetic to their commercial needs.
These potential life-and-death issues are too important to leave
solely to market forces that respond to important but unrelated
interests.

   Good and sound public policy decisions must be made now by Congress. We
remain hopeful that, as legislation is crafted, it will not
ignore the pleas of law enforcement but instead will preserve
that careful balance that has been so meticulously maintained
for the past 200 years.

   Louis J. Freeh is director of the FBI.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 08:05:32 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:05:32 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
Message-ID: 



[CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

---

Subject:
            Re: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
       Date:
            Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:29:17 -0400
      From:
            Jonah Seiger 
        To:
            Declan McCullagh 


Declan --

If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
(in this case, cypherpunks).

This message is not a question -- it's an attack.  It assumes the answer
before it's asked, and it's nothing more than read meat thrown to a hungry
crowd.

If you have questions about how we set up the site, or how we feel about
the results of Wednesday's Commerce Committee vote, all you have to do is
contact us.  We will be happy to talk to you.  This is the way every other
journalist we work with operates.

Unfortunately, your pattern is different. I would have thought that after
last week's unfortunate incident you would have learned something.  Perhaps
I was assuming too much.

Jonah

At 11:19 PM -0400 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Thanks, Shabbir, for putting this vital information online. But I'm a
>little puzzled. I fear the CDT/VTW crypto.com web site may be misleading.
>
>You say, for instance, that opposing SAFE yesterday was a vote "against
>Internet privacy" and "against passing the SAFE bill out of committee."
>That's not true. The Markey-White-amended bill the committee approved
>yesterday was not the SAFE bill. It was a deviant version with important
>differences from SAFE.
>
>The Markey-White amendment includes: the doubled crypto-in-a-crime
>penalties (10-20 years!), the sop to eventual mandatory key recovery by
>including liability immunity for turning over keys to the Feds or the
>sheriff of Podunk County, the bogus NETcenter that effectively gives the
>NSA a statutory basis for domestic evildoing, etc. (Markey wanted to take
>credit for killing the original SAFE. He told the Washington Post "after
>the vote" that the original, better, Goodlatte SAFE "no longer exists as a
>political option." That's right -- thanks to his own amendment...)
>
>The second and third votes are essentially the same: should the above
>provisions be in the Commerce committee of the bill. But why do you avoid
>taking a position on whether the second vote on Markey-White was good or
>bad?
>
>If the second description was to avoid taking a position on Markey-White,
>it doesn't work. You say in your third description that a vote for the
>amended Markey-White bill was a good one. Why would CDT/VTW endorse such
>disturbing legislation? (And not admit it?) To what extent was CDT/VTW
>involved in drafting Markey-White and to what extent did you encourage
>committee members to vote for it?
>
>Also, the description for the third vote is misleading by itself. It just
>says "report SAFE" when it should say "report SAFE with Markey-White
>provisions" out of committee.
>
>And, given these problems with Markey-White, why is the CDT/VTW crypto.com
>site counting a vote for the Markey-White-amended bill as a vote for
>"Internet privacy?" I should think that given the problems -- such as
>doubling of crypto-in-a-crime and sop towards mandatory key recovery --
>that a vote against the Markey-White-amended bill is a //good// vote, not
>one against Net-privacy.
>
>If a legislator wanted to vote for Internet freedom and reject deviant
>bills, he should have voted against Oxley, Markey-White, and against
>passing the bill with Markey-White out of committee yesterday. (That would
>have left the cleaner Judiciary committee version of SAFE as a more likely
>option.) Rep. Brown, for instance, did just that -- yet you tar him as
>against Internet freedoms.
>
>Go figure.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>crypto.com says:
>
>>Voted in favor of Internet privacy at the full
>>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. This vote was
>>against attaching the Oxley-Manton 'Big Brother'
>>amendment to SAFE.
>>
>>Voted against the Markey-White amendment at the full
>>Commerce committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was
>>against attaching the Markey-White amendment to SAFE.
>>
>>Voted against Internet privacy at the full Commerce
>>committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against
>>passing the SAFE bill out of committee.
>
>
>
>At 17:56 -0400 9/25/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in place at
>>http://www.crypto.com/member/
>>
>>Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about, either by zip code
>>or by state, and you can see how they voted in the three Commerce votes
>>last night.  Then, you can call and yell or send kudos.



* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151

                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger








From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep 26 08:21:23 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:21:23 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 22 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342BCBC0.4F76@sk.sympatico.ca>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 17995 bytes
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URL: 

From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep 26 08:27:14 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:27:14 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 22 / TEXT
Message-ID: <342BCBEB.4B28@sk.sympatico.ca>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Forever Young

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Forever Young
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alexis and Jonathan were resting in each other's arms on the couch by the
old oak table, and quietly discussing the wide variety of posts to the
CypherPunks mailing lists in the wake of the House Commerce Committee's
defeat of the Oxley amendment to the SAFE bill and their approval of the
Markey-White amendment, instead.

"It seems strange that the our future destiny is so deeply intertwined with
events that happened over a century ago." Alexis said.
"It seems even stranger," she continued, "that our past is being
transmogrified through the InformEnergy we are exchanging with that era
through the Trei Transponder."

"Not to mention the present�" Jonathan added, showing her the post he had
just pulled up on the GraphiScreen behind them.

Subject: FWD: Dear Representative Oxley
From: Anthony Garcia 
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

For what it's worth. -Anthony

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:47:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Anthony Garcia 
To: Mike.Oxley at mail.house.gov
Subject: Dear Representative Oxley

At this time, it looks like your ignorant, anti-Constitutional
amendment to the Safety And Freedom through Encryption Act will be
passed by the Commerce Committee. This legislation may go on to
be passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.

In case this occurs, I would like you to make note of my home
address and telephone number. They are:
Anthony Garcia
[address & phone elided for broadcast on cypherpunks list]

If I move to a new address in the future, I will update you.

I telling you this because I fully intend to willfully break
your stupid law exactly 1 minute after the moment it goes into
effect on January 1st, 1999.

I will:
- Manufacture an encryption product that does not support key
escrow (I will compile source code for encryption software
which does not support key escrow.)
- Offer to sell that encryption product to any takers for
the sum of $1.
- Offer that encryption product for free to the public via FTP or HTTP
file transfer over the Internet.
- Import an encryption software product which does not support
key escrow by means of file transfer over the Internet from
a foreign source.

So, get ready to arrest me, Big Mike. Get out your old FBI shield and
shine it up, because I AM GOING TO BREAK YOUR LAW. GOT IT?

Sincerely,
-Anthony Garcia
agarcia at neosoft.com

P.S. When you have some free time, look up a document known as the
"Bill of Rights", and review the sections titled "First Amendment" and
"Fourth Amendment".

Alexis gazed at the post with interest, but seemed mystified as to what
import it had for the Magic Circle's present situation.
"I don't remember seeing this post in the archives we went over yesterday,
but it certainly doesn't to seem unusual for the CypherPunks list."

"It wasn't in the mailing list archives yesterday." Jonathan told her,
waiting for the import of what he was saying to begin sinking in, as
evidenced by Alexis's ever-widening eyes, before continuing.
"All of the posts that were in the archive yesterday are either nonexistent,
or changed, when compared to emails we're pulling from A Player To Be Named
Later's digital implant through the Trei Transponder."

Bubba and Priscilla walked up, hand in hand, joining in the conversation.
"If you check the archives you will find," Bubba said solemnly, "that the
Oxley amendment to the SAFE bill passed on September 14, 1997."
After taking a sharp elbow to the ribs, Bubba added, grinning, "We have
Priscilla to thank for pointing out this most interesting anomaly in the
fabric of history, as we seem to currently be experiencing it."

"Bubba told me I was confused." Priscilla said, gloating at her correcting
of the Magic Circle's most prestigious purveyor of ancient history.
"He said that I must have read in the CypherPunks list archives about the
Oxley amendment being passed at a later date, since it had been one of the
turning points in history in the battle for control of the InterNet. I told
the old fart," Priscilla said, as Bubba now nudged her in the ribs,
"to�'check the archives.'"
Jonathan and Alexis laughed at her imitation of Tim May, circa. 1990's.

"Nuke DC!" the Cowboy approached, waving a handful of freshly printed posts
from their current subscription to the CypherPunks mailing list of a century
earlier.
The Cowboy had resurrected some old printers that Melissa had smuggled out
to him from the closely guarded Museum of Antiquities. d'Shauneaux had
brought them back from one of his midnight meetings with her the previous
week.

Subject: Re: SAFE = Security and Fascism through Escrow
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:00:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ray Arachelian 
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tim May wrote:
> As our Big Brothers in D.C. continue to abuse the language by taking SAFE
> in a direction 180 degrees from the original intentions, it seems only
fair
> that we rename the bill the Security and Fascism through Escrow Bill.

Erm, Tim you've somehow managed to misspell SODOMY. There's no securiy in
SAFE, by definition, it's a security hole through which the citizens get
sodomized.

==============================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==================
.+.^.+. | Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\.
..\|/.. |sunder at sundernet.com |you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\
<--*--> | ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/
../|\.. | "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+ .|God of screwdrivers" |my eye and there we were.... |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

The Cowboy announced, grandly, "There is no record in the archives which
shows any indication that the SAFE bill became generally known on the
CypherPunks list as the 'Sodomy And Fascism through Encryption' bill, as now
seem to be happening."

The Cowboy showed the group a color printout of the new SAFE T-shirt being
produced by Adam Back, with a Swastika and the word 'SAFE' composed of a
series of toilet plungers.
"Bill Stewart suggested to Adam that it be a 'scratch and sniff' T-shirt,
but Back pointed out to him that SAFE was already beginning to smell bad to
an increasing number of people, anyway."

The small group shared a chuckle or two, as the Cowboy continued.
"In addition to the challenge issued to Oxley by Anthony Garcia, and the
posts by May and Arachelian, which didn't exist in our recent previous
past�if that makes sense�I have found that even the posts that do exist in
the archives are not the same as the ones we are currently receiving from
that same point in time.
"There has been a subtle quantum shift in the tone and direction of the
posts to the CypherPunks list, as well as to the rest of the history
surrounding the InterNet during that crucial nadir point in the InterNet's
evolution."

The Cowboy pulled out a bottle of Jim Beam and passed it around the table�an
indication that he was about to drop a bombshell on his compatriots. After
everyone had downed a stiff shot of the ice-cold bourbon, he asked, "What
did we all agree were two serious errors in Chapter 20 of 'InfoWar.'" he
asked the others.

Alexis was the first to speak.
"Well, in general, we agreed that it was a ridiculously overdone parody of a
conspiracy theory worthy of ? the Lunatic's deranged mind."

"In specific," Jonathan added, as the group laughed, once again,
"attributing the chapter as being written by Bill Gates, wherein the man
purportedly connects himself to one of the sleaziest maneuvers in the
history of the perversion of democracy and justice, then proceeding to make
it look as if he had cowardly submitted to blackmail by the anonymous post
that linked him to the original Indio gathering of weapons dealers, as well
as the thinly veiled threat of violence to 'a billionaire to be named
later.'
"Not even the most unbalanced of the CypherPunks list members was likely to
fail to see this as a shallow attempt at smearing Gates by making it look as
if he had taken up the challenge that ? the Lunatic had sent anonymously
through the TruthMailer as A. Fiend, to write his own chapter of 'InfoWar,'
revealing some dark secret from his past, and asking him to provide some
real, but improbable evidence of his authorship by making reference to some
future event, based on his own inside information."

The group nodded in agreement with this statement by Jonathan, and then
Alexis brought up the second major inanity the group had found in the
'InfoWar' chapter titled, 'A Billionaire To Be Named Later.'

"We agreed that it was a pretty wild stretch to intimate that an LMBoyd
sampler sent out two months before was a veiled message from the Circle of
Eunuchs to the Internet Content Coalition warning them of a serial
killer/mass murderer from the north, where ? the Lunatic and polar bears
live.
"Although the timing of the mentioned email was rather synchronous with the
Coalition's agenda..."

The Cowboy broke into a wide smile, asking the others, "Did anyone happen to
read the LMBoyd sampler for July 25, 1997?"
The others looked at one another questioningly, each nodding negatively.

The Cowboy lay a post in front of the group, which they proceeded to read
with amazement.

Subject: Sampler: September 25
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:15:01 -0700
From: sampler-request at lmboyd.com
To: multiple recipients of 
======================================================

Tennis players might quote Shakespeare's Henry VI: "O
monstrous fault!" Basketball players, Henry V: "Hear the
shrill whistle." Bowlers, The Tempest: "Mercy on us, we
split." Golfers, King John: "Give me an iron." Baseball
players, Othello: "You did bid me steal." Hockey players,
A Midsummer Night's Dream: "Gentle Puck, come hither."

Great horned owls lay round eggs.

  1. Did the Eskimo of old believe in God?
     A. They did. They thought God, the Supreme
     Environmentalist, created polar bears to prevent humans
     from over-multiplying. So they wouldn't eat up everything
     in one season.
     ==============================================
     LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
     http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

"This was sent out after chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' had been sent to the
CypherPunks list." Bubba commented.
After checking the date and time that chapter 20 had been sent, he said,
sounding even more perplexed and amazed, "A little more than a single hour
afterward."

The Cowboy let each of them read the post, once again, to confirm for
themselves what secrets it revealed.

"Fucking unbelievable!" Jonathan exclaimed.
"The 'A Billionaire To Be Named Later' chapter is not only followed shortly
thereafter by a completely unrelated item which contains not only a
confirmation of the claim of Circle of Eunuchs involvement in the LMBoyd web
site, but even expands on it, by adding the reference to hockey players,
such as the Author, as well as a repetition of the theme wherein polar bears
hunt and consume humans."

"And adding a reference to 'horned owls' dropping 'round eggs'?" Alexis
noted, looking at the others for confirmation she wasn't imagining things.
"Nukes?"

Bubba Rom Dos, poet and philosopher, also pointed out that the LMBoyd
sampler began with a reference to Shakespeare, and that the last quote
attributed to A Player To Be Named Later in the chapter attributed to Gates
was a reference to Shakespeare being a member of the Magic Circle-a distinct
impossibility.
"Thus, the author of chapter 20 could only have been using that analogy to
set up the confirmation by the later LMBoyd sampler that the Circle of
Eunuchs was involved in the use of the samplers to pass messages.

Jonathan asked the question that everyone was now rolling over in their
mind.
"What does this do to our other conclusion, that the chapter was not
authored by 'Bad BillyG,' himself?"

The Cowboy sat down and knocked back another shot of Jim Beam, as the Trei
Transponder began to quietly hum in the background. It was causing something
tucked away in the back of the Cowboy's mind to begin resonating, and he
struggled to bring it to the forefront of his consciousness where it could
be examined in the light of reason�

"A Player To Be Named Later had no connection to the LMBoyd web site." the
Cowboy stated emphatically, surprising the others, who were lost in their
own contemplation.

The Cowboy looked at each of the others, in turn, and announced, "But Gates
did!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later lay on his bed, Baby lying by his side and
looking up quizzically at him, wondering about the soft humming noise coming
from her friend's head. He reached down and stroked her on the back of the
neck, saying,
"Modern technology, Baby. Someday I'll get you a digital implant, too, so
that you can bark at the doggies of the future."

He laughed and rose to get Baby a bowl of milk.

BillyG had done his homework, that much was certain. And the man had added
some personal touches to chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' that would have done
justice to even the most diabolically astute members of the legendarily
insane conspiracy of the slippery, esoteric--and definitely mythical--Circle
of Eunuchs.

He had immediately noticed BillyG's reference to the Shakespeare line from
the first sentence of the last chapter of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre."
Having the quote, "And one man, in his time, plays many parts." spoken by A
Player To Be Named Later was an obvious implication that he and the Author
were one and the same person. Keeping the 'true identity' of the Author 'in
play,' as Bubba called it, was a Circle of Eunuchs tradition.

As well, the last chapter of TXCSM, titled 'it ain't over 'till it's over,'
contained a reference to the "He who shits on the Road will meet flies on
his return." quote, which was a usual part of the TruthMailer header, but
was not included in the TruthMailer email which had originally challenged
BillyG to write a chapter for 'InfoWar.'
That TXCSM chapter also made reference to Pearl Harbor Computers motto,
"We've been bombed since 1941.", which meant that the Magic Circle had been
brought full circle to closure by the veiled reference to the nuclear bomb
in the follow-up LMBoyd sampler which served to confirm the details of the
chapter 20 reference to a previous LMBoyd sampler.

"And the ending of the second sampler," he told Baby, who was listening
intently, "with a direct reference to the polar bears mentioned in the one
from two months before�a fucking classic in-your-face Circle of Eunuchs
maneuver that says everything and proves nothing!"

The timing of the confirmation post was likewise a classic maneuver. Anyone
who went to the trouble of checking the timing of chapter 20 and the
following LMBoyd sampler could easily miscalculate different time zones
involved and come to the conclusion that it was a clever ruse, but those who
were familiar with headers and time zone references in InterNet processing
would know beyond doubt that chapter 20 had been submitted to the list
previous to the release of the LMBoyd sampler.

The Coupe de Gras, of course, was that chapter 21 of 'InfoWar,' which was
titled 'Lying Fucking Nazi Cunt Sex Criminal,' and which had its authorship
attributed to the President, quoted another email which had been posted to
the CypherPunks list before the House Commerce Committee's meeting on the
Oxley amendment to SAFE, as well as sent to over a hundred Congressmen and
Senators, and which alluded to an argument that would be raised during the
closed meeting-a fact which would be later confirmed by those in attendance.

The chapter itself intimated that this precognition of a later event might
be attributable to guessing the probable from previously available
information, even if it was a bold long-shot, but anyone who understood the
full import of the reference to the 'Forever Young' Eternity Server and the
demise of the Huge Cajones remailer would know beyond doubt that the author
of chapter 21 had access to information that came from deep within the walls
of the Whitehouse.

The ending of chapter 21 with the reference to the coming assault on Intel
might be viewed as information that could have leaked out before chapter 21
was written, but anyone who reread the passage a month or so in the future
would see the reality of what was being implied in the description of the
true agenda of 'total information control' being pursued by the dark powers
within the Whitehouse and the government intelligence agencies pulling the
President's strings.

"Two perfect chapters, Baby." A Player To Be Named Later knocked back a shot
of Scotch and rolled himself a cigarette.

"Anybody who checks the true facts involved in their creation and
distribution will prove to themselves, beyond all doubt, that their
authorship and their wild-eyed claims are exactly what the manuscript
purports them to be."
He laughed and threw Baby a chocolate chip cookie in appreciation of her
rapt attention to his maniacal monologue, and gave her a conspiratorial
wink.

"Yet," he continued, "just let them try to tell someone else of their
discovery�they will find them self running from the men with the butterfly
nets, in short order."

"But," A Player To Be Named Later continued, laughing diabolically, "they
ain't seen nothing, yet!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep 26 09:06:37 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:06:37 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <342BD67D.3346@sk.sympatico.ca>



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
> for him to answer my questions. --Declan]
 
> Declan --
> 
> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> (in this case, cypherpunks).
...

  Upon reading CDT's last offering to the CypherPunks list, I was trying
to figure out how to write a half-civil post telling them they had their
head up their ass.
  When I read Declan's post, I decided that he had already taken care of
the matter in a much more civil way than I could ever hope to.

  Since these fucking idiots seem to be scratching around in their ears
after picking their asses, thereby leaving deposits which interfere with
their hearing, I will take the time and trouble to point out a few
things for their edification.

  For starters, after reading the nonsense that the CDT spammed the list
with, I wondered if they were stupid, illiterate or both, since they
don't seem to be able to follow either the details of what is happening
with regard to the SAFE legislation and its variations, nor form a clear
concept of the real issues involved.
  I would suggest that if CDT is going to purport to be some sort of 
news/information source, that they invest in a fucking dictionary and
keep it on Seiger's desk. 
  I would further suggest that if Jonah is incapable of supporting his
vague claims of unjust attack by Declan, that he reread Declan's post
with an eye toward learning how a real journalist provides solid details
and examples to express his message and the stance he is taking.

  I have yet to read a CDT release which I do not have to reread to 
confirm my suspicion that the excess, confusing verbosity that is
employed seems to serve mostly to mask the fact that they are both
misrepresenting the facts and misleading those who trust them to
properly outline the issues involved.

  In short, I would be very surprised if CDT's dicks don't smell
suspiciously like Freeh's asshole.
  I will refrain from commenting on making a similar analogy to
Freeh's tongue and CDT's assholes, as it might be in bad taste.

  I am beginning to think that democracy might have a better chance
of having some life breathed back into it in America if someone with
a chainsaw were to do some selective clear-cutting to remove the
deadwood in the plethora of organizations that have the audacity
to proclaim their compromises with fascism as the defense of 
democracy. (Can you say 'CDT'? Sure you can...)

Toto
~~~~
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn
"InfoWar"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/infowar3






From trei at process.com  Fri Sep 26 09:28:05 1997
From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:28:05 +0800
Subject: pi == 3 [was: Re: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <199709261607.JAA03899@rigel.cyberpass.net>



> From:          David HM Spector 

> Re: Pi.... 
> 
> I believe the enlightened Legislator who attempted to legislate Pi was
> none other than Jesse Helms (although this could be a legislative
> myth!) and when Ol'Jesse proposed it (because he was "sick of all these
> egg-heads with their big numbers") John Glenn said something on the
> order of ' if your legislation passes Senator, I wouldn't want to
> driver over any bridges in your state!'

> _DHMS

Not Helms, and not recently. From 'Extraordinary Pi',
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~nickjh/Pi.htm :

     Indiana State Legislature House Bill No. 246, 1897, set the value of
     Pi to a to 3. Duh !

     Actually the wording of the bill is really unclear and can
     interpreted in various ways. Other interpretations include 3.2, 4
     and 9.2376. The bill goes on in a confused way to contradict
     other areas of elementary geometry, and to contradict itself. It
     got passed all the way up to Senate level, then a Mathematics
     Professor noticed it by chance, informed the Senate, and it was
     posponed indefinitely at its second reading.

Peter Trei






From hall at counterpane.com  Fri Sep 26 09:34:30 1997
From: hall at counterpane.com (Chris Hall)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:34:30 +0800
Subject: Peter Landrock's CRYPTO 97 rump session
Message-ID: <199709261614.KAA00562@asylum.cs.colorado.edu>




I know that many of you attended this years CRYPTO and probably went to the
rump session too.  Does anyone remember the details of Peter Landrock's
presentation?  If I recall correctly, he presented an amusing talk in which
an attacker tried to blackmail a bank by claiming knowledge of the bank's
RSA private exponent.  He did this by revealing successive bytes of the
exponent starting with the most significant.  The ransom doubled with each
successive byte revealed (and I believe he got up to 52 in his example). 
The catch was that any person can do this for the first X number of bytes
of the exponent *without actually knowing d* (where X varies depending at
least upon n).

What I would like to know is what the details of the attack were:

1)  Am I out of my mind and there was no such attack?

2)  Given an RSA modulus n and public exponent e, can someone determine the
    X most significant bytes of e (presumably X is less than half of the
    byte length of e)?

3)  If so, what are the restrictions on e?  Are there choices of e which
    make this attack infeasible?

4)  If so, does one get only the most significant bits of d that are
    non-zero (i.e. if d=0x0078... then one gets 0xF000 back as the result)?
    Or does one actually get the "length" of d (i.e. log_2(d) can be
    derived)?

Please post any response to the list (so other people can have the info),
but please Cc me too.  I am subscribed to a filtered version of the list
and may not see the reply.

							Thanks,
							Chris Hall






From rarab at buffnet.net  Fri Sep 26 09:46:55 1997
From: rarab at buffnet.net (rarab at buffnet.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:46:55 +0800
Subject: clean machine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970926122501.0069eb50@buffnet.net>



Can anyone tell me if a person could expect to encounter any difficulty
with US Customs if they leave the US with PGP on a lap top machine? Would
you be questioned about the contents of your machine? Would you be obliged
to demonstrate that the machine was "clean" before it would be permitted to
leave the country? Would a person be compelled to divulge the contents of
any floppy disks in their possession before leaving the country with them?

Perhaps the prudent thing to do is download PGP to your machine after
leaving the US.
I must take a decision on this matter in a few months. Any advice would be
appreciated.

Cordially, rarab






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 26 10:02:22 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:02:22 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 7:41 AM -0700 9/26/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
>for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

Let us know what happens. I'd guess that your editors do nothing. Not
exactly a fireable offense. Your messages to Cypherpunks or
Fight-Censorship may differ in tone from your articles in "Time" or other
fora. This is natural, it seems to me.

The larger issue is that the CDT/VTW "players" are showing their
willingness to trade away the civil liberties of us all for a few minor
tidbits thrown (they think) to corporate sponsors.

Washington is a city based almost exclusively on theft. It feeds off the
rest of the country, indeed, the rest of the world. It thrives by
collecting tribute. The more laws it can generate, the more tribute, and
the more power it has. Like the other famed imperial capitals,  the only
game in town is politics. Meaning, how to collect and distribute money.

Those who work near Washington tend to get pulled into this power vortex.
They become functionaries, advisors, consultants, lobbyists, or even,
sometimes, elected politicians themselves.

This is probably why EFF belatedly realized that their soul was being lost
and got the hell out. That so few news magazines delved into this is
telling.

I think a major expose of the "cyber liberties" lobbying groups in
Washington is needed. Where they get their funding, what their real goals
are, why they are so willing to compromise on basic liberties. Maybe you
will write it, Declan.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From schneier at counterpane.com  Fri Sep 26 10:27:36 1997
From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:27:36 +0800
Subject: S/MIME Crack?  Beware press bearing incomplete stories
Message-ID: 



What I did:  write a Windows 95 screen saver that automatically brute
forces 40-bit RC2 keys.  The screen saver is has an easy interface, and
parallizes nicely.

What I didn't do:  break S/MIME.  I did not find any flaw in the S/MIME
security specification.  I did not find any flaw in any of the cryptographic
algorithms used.  I did not find any flaw in any software implementation
of S/MIME.  There is nothing wrong with the S/MIME standard.

What I find, though, is that many S/MIME implementations don't interporate
at anything stronger than 40-bit RC2.  I find that the default encryption
is 40-bit RC2, and the user isn't given any indication that the encryption
level should be changed.

40-bit RC2 is weak.  This is nothing new to anyone who reads the S/MIME
specifications. In fact, the S/MIME specification is very forthcoming in
discussing security of 40-bit RC2.

> 2.6 ContentEncryptionAlgorithmIdentifier
>
> Receiving agents MUST support decryption and encryption using the RC2
> algorithm [RC2] at a key size of 40 bits, hereinafter called "RC2/40".
> Receiving agents SHOULD support decryption using DES EDE3 CBC,
> hereinafter called "tripleDES".
>
> Sending agents SHOULD support encryption with RC2/40 and tripleDES.

Later in the spec, the following appears:

> Before sending a message, the sending agent MUST decide whether it is
> willing to use weak encryption for the particular data in the message.
> If the sending agent decides that weak encryption is unacceptable for
> this data, then the sending agent MUST NOT use a weak algorithm such
> as RC2/40. The decision to use or not use weak encryption overrides
> any other decision in this section about which encryption algorithm to
> use.

And even later:

> 2.6.2.3 Rule 3: Unknown Capabilities, Risk of Failed Decryption
>
> If:
>  - the sending agent has no knowledge of the encryption capabilities
>    of the recipient,
>  - and the sending agent is willing to risk that the recipient may
>    not be able to decrypt the message,
> then the sending agent SHOULD use tripleDES.
>
> 2.6.2.4 Rule 4: Unknown Capabilities, No Risk of Failed Decryption
>
> If:
>  - the sending agent has no knowledge of the encryption capabilities
>    of the recipient,
>  - and the sending agent is not willing to risk that the recipient
>    may not be able to decrypt the message,
> then the sending agent MUST use RC2/40.

And:

> 2.6.3 Choosing Weak Encryption
>
> Like all algorithms that use 40 bit keys, RC2/40 is considered by many
> to be weak encryption. A sending agent that is controlled by a human
> SHOULD allow a human sender to determine the risks of sending data
> using RC2/40 or a similarly weak encryption algorithm before sending
> the data, and possibly allow the human to use a stronger encryption
> method such as tripleDES.

I wrote this screen saver not to trash S/MIME (even though the announcement
was used by another company), but to 1) illustrate that 40-bit RC2 really
is insecure, and 2) try to force companies who implement S/MIME to get
DES and triple-DES to interoperate.  I heard recently that RSADSI has said
there is a triple-DES message on their website that can be understood by
both Microsoft Internet Explorer and Netscape Communicator.  I don't know
about the message, but when I tried to get DES and triple-DES to interoperate
a few months ago I couldn't.

Bruce

**********************************************************************
Bruce Schneier, President, Counterpane Systems     Phone: 612-823-1098
101 E Minnehaha Parkway, Minneapolis,MN  55419       Fax: 612-823-1590
                                            http://www.counterpane.com







From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Fri Sep 26 10:30:58 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:30:58 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F2F@tceis5.indy.tce.com>



>I believe the enlightened Legislator who attempted to legislate Pi was
>none other than Jesse Helms (although this could be a legislative
>myth!) and when Ol'Jesse proposed it (because he was "sick of all these
>egg-heads with their big numbers") John Glenn said something on the
>order of ' if your legislation passes Senator, I wouldn't want to
>driver over any bridges in your state!'

Alas (according to my failing memory) it was legislator from my home
state of Indiana during the early part of this century, who had planned
to make a killing in textbooks if Pi == 3.0 was accepted.  Fortunately
he was called on it when it went before the whole legislature.


I just have to wonder, how much of what we hear from various LEAs is due
to the political desires of the people doing the talking -- I'd suspect
that a majority of line officers (or the majority of those who are
informed on the topic) would have something quite different to say.  "In
a confusing situation, follow the money.  If there isn't any money,
follow the power."  Domestic crypto controls just fall _way_ too easily
into the trap of increased state power (vs. the actual percentages of
crimes whose investigations are impeded by crypto) to make me think that
this is anything other than just a blatant political move on the part of
the LEA managers.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 10:36:24 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:36:24 +0800
Subject: ACLU opposes deviant Markey-White version of SAFE
Message-ID: 



The House Commerce committee approved the deviant Markey-White amendments
as a "compromise" package.

Note: "It is now clear that any version of this bill will be used to attack
domestic encryption protection."

-Declan

-----------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE   Contact: Emily Whitfield (212) 549-2566
Thursday, September 25, 1997    Phil Gutis (202) 675-2312

WASHINGTON -- Citing civil liberties concerns, the House Commerce Committee
late yesterday overwhelmingly beat back an attempt by law enforcement to
hijack what had been introduced as a pro-privacy encryption bill.

The American Civil Liberties Union, which supported the original version of
 H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act ("SAFE") applauded
the committee's action, but said it could not support the new version of
SAFE, which contains a new set of civil liberties problems.

"We survived the hijacking only to find that we are still in enemy
territory," said Donald Haines, Legislative Counsel on privacy and cyberspace
issues for the ACLU's Washington National Office. "It is now clear that any
version of this bill will be used to attack domestic encryption protection.
Therefore, the ACLU strongly opposes bringing any encryption legislation to
the floor at this time."

The amendment that was rejected yesterday sought to reverse the original
intent of SAFE, a bill that would ease controls on export of strong
encryption technology.  Sponsored by Reps. Michael Oxley, R-OH, and Thomas
Manton, D-NY, it would have given law enforcement agencies easy access to
every private computer file, e-mail, telephone conversation, and online
communication in America. By providing this "backdoor" for law enforcement,
the ACLU said the amendment would leave a door open to others seeking
unauthorized access to private communications.

But in rejecting the law enforcement power grab, the Committee essentially
re-wrote the SAFE bill, adopting amendments that would:

� Establish a "codebreaking" center for law enforcement that would improperly
involve the National Security Agency (NSA) in domestic affairs.
� Reinstate an objectionable provision in the original SAFE bill that would
criminalize, for the first time ever, the use of domestic encryption.
� Double the penalties for criminal use of encryption, up to a maximum of 20
years in prison.
� Provide immunity for anyone who turns over encryption "keys" to law
enforcement, setting the stage for a mandatory "back door" for law
enforcement access to private files and communications.

"We were heartened that privacy and free speech were cited by so many
committee members as the reason why the FBI amendment had to be rejected,"
Haines said. "We now call upon all members of the House to take these
fundamental civil liberties into account in considering any bill addressing
the use of encryption."

With yesterday's vote, the last of five versions of the SAFE bill may now
proceed to the House Rules Committee for a decision on how the bill will be
presented to the House.  The chairman of that committee, Gerald Solomon,
R-NY, has vowed publicly to block any version of SAFE that does not have the
Oxley-Manton amendment.

In a letter sent to members of the Commerce Committee yesterday, the ACLU
joined a broad spectrum of groups in calling for "no compromise on privacy
protection by encryption." The letter urged the members to oppose the
Oxley-Manton amendment, as well as  any  attempts to limit the right of all
Americans to get and use whatever encryption protection they want.

The letter was signed by the ACLU, Americans for Tax Reform, The Eagle Forum,
Electronic Privacy Information Center, Privacy International and the United
States Privacy Council.

"All efforts, direct and indirect, to restrict our right to the greatest
possible privacy protection must be rejected," Haines said.  "Whether you are
sending sensitive corporate documents or your family's travel plans, you have
a right to speak privately."

The last three committees to act on SAFE (National Security, Intelligence and
Commerce) have all added anti-privacy provisions, while bills from the
Judiciary and International Affairs committees lack provisions to protect
First Amendment rights in the the use of encryption.  Both those bills also
contain the criminalization provision present in the other bills, although
without the even stiffer penalties added to the new version of SAFE.

A group of leading scientific, educational and engineering organizations also
voiced their opposition yesterday to any legislation imposing strict domestic
controls on encryption.   The groups said that the amendment would have a
"grave effect" on cryptographic research in the United States, and  could
also negatively impact U.S. commerce while benefiting overseas companies not
subject to controls.

Encryption programs scramble information so that it can only be read with a
"key" -- a code the recipient uses to unlock the scrambled electronic data.
As more of our messages are sent via computers, digital switches, and
wireless phones, they must be encrypted, otherwise our messages can be seized
and read by others.

There are no laws that now prohibit using as strong encryption as possible
inside the United States. But, unless keys are made available to the
government, the Clinton Administration bans export of encryption equipment
and software, treating the products as "munitions."

In response to these continued attacks on privacy rights, the ACLU this
summer launched Take Back Your Data!, a nationwide citizen campaign to fight
for legal reforms to privacy laws and resist further encroachments on the
right to privacy.  Through its website at www.aclu.org, the ACLU urges
visitors to contact their elected officials and voice support for or
opposition to pending legislation.

In addition, the ACLU said that it is drafting omnibus privacy legislation
that would, if adopted, fulfill the basic goals of the Take Back Your Data!
campaign.  The legislation will be unveiled later this fall, followed by a
broad-based effort to encourage members of Congress to co-sponsor the
legislation.







From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 26 10:49:24 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:49:24 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <518a11cd897fab49c5c65badb848d348@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>At 03:03 AM 9/26/97 -0400, Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>Right now it's [the remailer network] sort of usable, but only for the
>>dedicated, and there aren't many of us.  I seem to be the only
>>persistent authenticated nym who posts with any frequency.
>...
>>One problem with operating a nym is that people almost always respond
>>to it with suspicion and hostility, even on this list.  It would be
>>nice to have an ordinary looking e-mail address that took in messages,
>>encrypted them for your public key, and then sent them out to
>>alt.anonymous.messages for pickup.  Going the other way it would be
>>nice if the account would accept signed messages and send them out as
>>normal e-mail or news articles.  This would allow nyms to participate
>>in NetWorld like everyone else.
>
>Your desired functionality seems to be describing the operation of a nym
>server, which you are not using.

No, the nym servers differ in two important ways.

1. They use a reply block so your true identity lies encrypted beneath
the public keys of several remailers.  I would rather the message went
to alt.anonymous.messages.  (I guess this could be jury-rigged by
supplying a reply block which sends the messages to a Usenet gateway.)

Didn't the weasel remailer operator recently move his accounts over to
redneck because of police interest?  Weren't we reassured that no
identities were revealed and that they wouldn't be revealed?  That
should be a good illustration of the weakness of a reply block to an
ordinary e-mail address.

Also, by my reading of the "uptime" statistic in Raph's remailer
chart, a reply block is not going to be very reliable for receiving
mail.  Are there any nyms out there using the nym servers who will
endorse the reliability of reply blocks?  Would you run a business
using them?

2. The nym servers advertise that the accounts are nyms through the
choice of domain names.  So, presumably, people will respond with the
same hostility that they respond to any other anonymous message. 

I presume the remailer operators want to minimize the number of times
somebody is defrauded through an anonymous account.  But, by the same
logic, ISPs should carefully identify their customers the same way a
bank does.  E-mail addresses should not be used as an authentication
method.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From apache at bear.apana.org.au  Fri Sep 26 10:55:45 1997
From: apache at bear.apana.org.au (Charles)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:55:45 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709261739.DAA14301@bear.apana.org.au>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



It would appear the excitement of the last couple of days has been too
much for Jonah. It confounds belief that following Shabbir's public
post to cypherpunks inviting inspection of www.crypto.com that Jonah,
the communications officer for CDT, of all people would seek to squash
public debate of queries arising therefrom from you, Declan, or indeed
from any other individual.

Given that Jonah views your post to Shabbir as as an attack and has
failed to respond to any of the issues raises further questions which
I leave for the reader to ponder.

I would hope Jonah can recover sufficiently to enable himself to get
over the irrelevant matter of whether your post constitutes an attack
and perhaps consider communicating a response to the substantive
issues you raised.


>>>>> "D" == Declan McCullagh 
>>>>> wrote the following on Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:41:59 -0400

  D> [CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still
  D> waiting for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

  D> ---

  D> Subject: Re: The Commerce committee votes are up at crypto.com
  D> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:29:17 -0400 From: Jonah Seiger
  D>  To: Declan McCullagh 


  D> Declan --

  D> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers
  D> CDT so much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted
  D> to a public list (in this case, cypherpunks).

  D> This message is not a question -- it's an attack.  It assumes the
  D> answer before it's asked, and it's nothing more than read meat
  D> thrown to a hungry crowd.

  D> If you have questions about how we set up the site, or how we
  D> feel about the results of Wednesday's Commerce Committee vote,
  D> all you have to do is contact us.  We will be happy to talk to
  D> you.  This is the way every other journalist we work with
  D> operates.

  D> Unfortunately, your pattern is different. I would have thought
  D> that after last week's unfortunate incident you would have
  D> learned something.  Perhaps I was assuming too much.

  D> Jonah

  D> At 11:19 PM -0400 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
  >> Thanks, Shabbir, for putting this vital information online. But
  >> I'm a little puzzled. I fear the CDT/VTW crypto.com web site may
  >> be misleading.
  >> 
  >> You say, for instance, that opposing SAFE yesterday was a vote
  >> "against Internet privacy" and "against passing the SAFE bill out
  >> of committee."  That's not true. The Markey-White-amended bill
  >> the committee approved yesterday was not the SAFE bill. It was a
  >> deviant version with important differences from SAFE.
  >> 
  >> The Markey-White amendment includes: the doubled
  >> crypto-in-a-crime penalties (10-20 years!), the sop to eventual
  >> mandatory key recovery by including liability immunity for
  >> turning over keys to the Feds or the sheriff of Podunk County,
  >> the bogus NETcenter that effectively gives the NSA a statutory
  >> basis for domestic evildoing, etc. (Markey wanted to take credit
  >> for killing the original SAFE. He told the Washington Post "after
  >> the vote" that the original, better, Goodlatte SAFE "no longer
  >> exists as a political option." That's right -- thanks to his own
  >> amendment...)
  >> 
  >> The second and third votes are essentially the same: should the
  >> above provisions be in the Commerce committee of the bill. But
  >> why do you avoid taking a position on whether the second vote on
  >> Markey-White was good or bad?
  >> 
  >> If the second description was to avoid taking a position on
  >> Markey-White, it doesn't work. You say in your third description
  >> that a vote for the amended Markey-White bill was a good one. Why
  >> would CDT/VTW endorse such disturbing legislation? (And not admit
  >> it?) To what extent was CDT/VTW involved in drafting Markey-White
  >> and to what extent did you encourage committee members to vote
  >> for it?
  >> 
  >> Also, the description for the third vote is misleading by
  >> itself. It just says "report SAFE" when it should say "report
  >> SAFE with Markey-White provisions" out of committee.
  >> 
  >> And, given these problems with Markey-White, why is the CDT/VTW
  >> crypto.com site counting a vote for the Markey-White-amended bill
  >> as a vote for "Internet privacy?" I should think that given the
  >> problems -- such as doubling of crypto-in-a-crime and sop towards
  >> mandatory key recovery -- that a vote against the
  >> Markey-White-amended bill is a //good// vote, not one against
  >> Net-privacy.
  >> 
  >> If a legislator wanted to vote for Internet freedom and reject
  >> deviant bills, he should have voted against Oxley, Markey-White,
  >> and against passing the bill with Markey-White out of committee
  >> yesterday. (That would have left the cleaner Judiciary committee
  >> version of SAFE as a more likely option.) Rep. Brown, for
  >> instance, did just that -- yet you tar him as against Internet
  >> freedoms.
  >> 
  >> Go figure.
  >> 
  >> -Declan
  >> 
  >> 
  >> crypto.com says:
  >> 
  >>> Voted in favor of Internet privacy at the full Commerce
  >>> committee vote on Sep 24 1997. This vote was against attaching
  >>> the Oxley-Manton 'Big Brother' amendment to SAFE.
  >>> 
  >>> Voted against the Markey-White amendment at the full Commerce
  >>> committee vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against attaching
  >>> the Markey-White amendment to SAFE.
  >>> 
  >>> Voted against Internet privacy at the full Commerce committee
  >>> vote on Sep 24 1997. The vote was against passing the SAFE bill
  >>> out of committee.
  >> 
  >> 
  >> 
  >> At 17:56 -0400 9/25/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
  >>> Last night's votes on SAFE in the Commerce committee are in
  >>> place at http://www.crypto.com/member/
  >>> 
  >>> Simply select the member of Congress you're curious about,
  >>> either by zip code or by state, and you can see how they voted
  >>> in the three Commerce votes last night.  Then, you can call and
  >>> yell or send kudos.



  D> * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key
  D> Escrow! * Adopt Your Legislator - http://www.crypto.com/adopt

  D> -- Jonah Seiger, Communications Director (v) +1.202.637.9800
  D> Center for Democracy and Technology pager +1.202.859.2151
  D>  PGP Key via finger http://www.cdt.org
  D> http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger

- --
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache at bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   
>::::::::::\\\     PGP mail preferred                  Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    PGP






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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 26 10:55:59 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:55:59 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Declan McCullagh  writes:
> Declan --
> 
> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> (in this case, cypherpunks).

Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
my plug.

Also, seeing much traffic cross-posted between cypherpunks and the fight-
censorship list, I sent a subscribe request to majordomo at vorlon.

I got back a robotic response saying Declan is reviewing my request...
Then nothing.  Apparenttly Declan doesn't want me reading his list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From minow at apple.com  Fri Sep 26 11:15:25 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:15:25 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 12:18 AM -0700 9/26/97, I wrote:
>> ... Extreme privacy
>>positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
>>presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
>>the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
>>McDonald said.
>
>This reminds me of the state legislature that tried to change the
>value of pi to something simpler in order to help students
>struggling with their homework.

Before we go too far down the "stupid politicians" path, I would
like to clarify what I was attempting to say.

Cryptography is mathematics; it exists in the real world. Legislating
against cryptography will, ultimately, be as effective as changing
the value of pi by legislation or passing a Papal edict that the
the earth is the center of the universe. Pass whatever edict you please:
"and, yet it moves."

Martin Minow
minow at apple.com









From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 26 11:37:51 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:37:51 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




> * increased traffic at all levels

Cover traffic bots are, to my knowledge, not yet implemented in any of 
the "eze-remailer (tm)" software packages like private idaho etc... Maybe 
this is a feature to think about for their authors for future revisions???

> * a profit motive for remailers, using "digital postage" (though this may
> work against the second point, having more traffic)

I have never thought this was a good idea, commercialising the remailer 
market, and indeed any market, not only gives a further incentive for 
government intervention but also allows for the remailer operators to be 
prosecuted for content more easily, providing a free service allows one 
to claim "common carrier" status more eaily.

> * more chaining tools for average users (on Windows and Macintosh machines,
> using standard mailers)

Yes, private idaho is an excellent package, but many users do not want 
the extra work of setting up another mailer which, in the buggy windoze 
environment may even lead to clashes and other such nastiness. 
Integration into mailers such as pegasus and eudora would be nice, I`m 
sure there must be a plugin for eudora by now but I`m pretty sure there 
is no such plugin for pegasus. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From sandfort at crl.com  Fri Sep 26 11:42:31 1997
From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:42:31 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Folks,

On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Somebody please tell me that this is a forged quote.... We are now
> "privacy extremists"? What's next? "Privacy militia"?

I wouldn't expect anything less from a "surveillance extremist."


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 26 11:50:05 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:50:05 +0800
Subject: Stupid warnings about "unsolicited e-mail"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




> (P.S. I did not "solicit" your e-mail to me....and my fee is 10 ounces of
> gold, payable immediately.)

Flesh is always a better form of payment I find.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From spector at zeitgeist.com  Fri Sep 26 12:20:35 1997
From: spector at zeitgeist.com (David HM Spector)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:20:35 +0800
Subject: Bidzos editorial moves across business wires
Message-ID: <199709261858.OAA08997@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>




This just went out over the wires... attributed to Investors Business Daily

Headline: Guest Editorial Nothing Safe About Encryption Bills

======================================================================
   By D. JAMES BIDZOS Congress is intent on regulating encryption
technology in the name of law enforcement, no matter what the cost.
But the real debate's not about fighting crime. It's about the
ability of American business to compete in our new networked world.
   The Senate is nearing a vote on a bill, by Sen. John McCain, R-
Ariz., and Sen. Bob Kerrey, D-Neb., requiring all encryption products
made, sold or used in the U.S. to provide on-demand government access
to encrypted files with a court order.
   In the House, the story's more complicated.
   The Commerce Committee on Wednesday approved the Security and
Freedom through Encryption Act, a bill by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, D-Va.
that was written to bar domestic controls on encryption.
   A few weeks ago, SAFE was amended to resemble the Senate bill.
But the Commerce Committee scrapped the change and restored the
bill's original language. The battle now moves to the Rules
Committee, where Rep. Gerald Solomon, R-N.Y., vows to restore the
decoding provisions.
   FBI Director Louis Freeh wants encryption controls passed. He
told the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Technology that without
such a law, "Our ability to investigate and sometimes prevent the
most serious crimes and terrorism will be severely impaired."
   No one wants the FBI stymied in its efforts to fight crime.
Unfortunately, the debate in Congress so far has painted the Senate
bill's opponents as ignorant of public safety and national security
concerns, or, worse, willing to put commercial interests ahead of
them.
   What's missing from the current encryption debate is a clear
understanding of the implications of the Senate bill, and the
identification of safeguards against abuse of a "key recovery"
system.
   Key recovery means that someone other than the main user holds a
copy of an encryption key. Everyone agrees that key recovery is
useful, even necessary. The bottom line is, who should hold the
keys?
   Strong encryption is already a fact of life in the U.S. and around
the world. Advanced, strong, unescrowed encryption is used in
millions of products, including every Web browser sold by Netscape
Communications Corp. and Microsoft Corp.
   Law enforcement and the national security establishment view
strong encryption as a threat to their efforts to safeguard the
public from those who would encrypt incriminating data.
   But this is a myopic view. Fact is, in our evolving
cyber-society, everything about us will be stored digitally.
Contrary to the position of the FBI -which says it only wants to
maintain wiretap capabilities as they have existed since 1968 - the
proposal for key recovery is not the digital equivalent of putting
alligator clips on phone wires. It's more like giving the government
the keys to all of our personal and professional lives.
   While the FBI says such access will only be by authorized court
order, it has not explained how controls and audits will prevent
abuse of these valuable keys. Would people allow local and federal
law enforcement to have and store a copy of the keys to their homes
and their filing cabinets?
   The computer industry fears that a law requiring products to
include U.S. government access will make them unable to compete in a
market where roughly 60% of their revenues come from outside the U.S.
   And U.S. firms operating overseas are very concerned. Foreign
governments with key recovery would have every reason to use it to
steal trade secrets and pass them on to their own industries. In
France and elsewhere, government spies often help state-owned firms
steal trade secrets from U.S. companies.
   The FBI hopes that the U.S. encryption market can sway the rest of
the world. But if other countries take the position - as Germany has
- - that they will not control the export of encryption or require key
recovery, how will U.S. industry compete?
   Along with Germany, encryption companies are springing up in South
Africa, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland and Singapore to exploit
opportunities created by a restrictive U.S. export policy.
   The administration and Congress seem ready to accept that American
industry will become a casualty of the crypto-wars as it struggles to
comply with a law no one fully understands, and foreign suppliers
step in to meet the demand.
   We can only hope that Congress will stop and think on this
critical issue before enshrining key recovery in law.
   D. James Bidzos is president of RSA Data Security Inc. in Redwood
City, Calif.


------- End of Forwarded Message




-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector                                         spector at zeitgeist.com
Network Design & Infrastructure Security                 voice: +1 212.580.7193
Amateur Radio: W2DHM (ex-N2BCA) (ARRL life member)       GridSquare: FN30AS
-.-. --- -. -. . -.-. -  .-- .. - ....  .- -- .- - . ..- .-.  .-. .- -.. .. ---
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, 
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'"
                                                        --H. G. Wells






From jseiger at cdt.org  Fri Sep 26 12:29:02 1997
From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:29:02 +0800
Subject: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
Message-ID: 



This morning, a private note from me to Declan -- part of an ongoing
personal conversation between Declan, CDT, and his editors at Time -- was
forwarded to several public lists.

It was not, as some have assumed, an attempt to obscure the substantive
issues he raised.  Unfortunately, this whole thing explored before CDT had
a chance to respond to Declan's questions directly.

I hope that the points below will help to clarify the issues:

1. CDT, along with VTW, EFF, ATR and Wired, spent the last two weeks rallying
   Internet users to call the Committee in opposition to Oxley-Manton.  We
   generated thousands of phone calls from constituents to the Committee, which
   we believe was a decisive factor in the defeat of Oxley-Manton.

2. CDT rallied support among the computer and communications industries,
   including many companies that have not yet weighed in yet on this issue.
   Opposition from the baby bells, along with companies who have in the past
   been favorable to the Administration's position (like IBM and TIS), probably
   made the difference in defeating Oxley-Manton

3. CDT did NOT support, nor work on, the White-Markey proposal. We strongly
   oppose the increased criminal provisions (as well as the criminal provisions
   in the original SAFE bill).  We are also concerned about the role of the
NET
   Center and the proposed liability limitations for key recovery agents
(though
   we do not believe that any liability limitations were included in the final
   bill)

4. CDT continues to support efforts to relax encryption export controls.  We
   believe that export relief is critical to promoting privacy and security on
   the Internet, both at home and abroad. We are steadfastly opposed to ANY
   domestic requirements, mandatory or "voluntary", to incorporate key-escrow,
   key-recovery, or other "immediate access" requirements.

5. We expect that all efforts to enact encryption reform legislation are
stalled
   for the remainder of this year, and we do not support any effort to bring
   SAFE to the House floor.  All our efforts are focused on stopping Congress
   from passing any bill in the foreseeable future, unless and until it is
clear
   that domestic  law enforcement access requirements will NOT be a part of any
   legislation.

6. We are not working for a "compromise" with the FBI or any other
supporters of
   domestic encryption controls.

We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
willing to stand up and simply oppose everything.   It was not in the
cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
policy reform.

That's why we have described the vote on cryto.com as a "vote in favor of
privacy".  I do not expect that this will convince all of our detractors,
but I do hope this clarifies the substance of Declan's criticism.

As always, I am happy to respond to queries about CDT's positions and
tactics, but I am not interested in engaging in public flame throwing.

Best,

Jonah


* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151

                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger











From declan at pathfinder.com  Fri Sep 26 12:59:33 1997
From: declan at pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 03:59:33 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
>my plug.

Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.

Want me to post the complete text of our interview? You were rather
reticent, shy, almost bashful, I recall. Most uncharacteristic, really.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Fri Sep 26 13:23:13 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:23:13 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Declan is smart.

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

Do you understand why now.


> Declan McCullagh  writes:
> > Declan --
> > 
> > If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> > much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> > (in this case, cypherpunks).
> 
> Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
> my plug.
> 
> Also, seeing much traffic cross-posted between cypherpunks and the fight-
> censorship list, I sent a subscribe request to majordomo at vorlon.
> 
> I got back a robotic response saying Declan is reviewing my request...
> Then nothing.  Apparenttly Declan doesn't want me reading his list.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email :  : 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From lws at ms.com  Fri Sep 26 13:23:29 1997
From: lws at ms.com (Lyle Seaman)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:23:29 +0800
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709262004.QAA08930@dead.morgan.com>




Rodney, eh?  Some Producer isn't giving you much respect.

-> From: Some Producer :-)
-> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:55:13 -0400 (EDT)
-> To: rah at shipwright.com
-> Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
-> 
-> Rodney,
-> ...






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 26 13:53:49 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:53:49 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <199709262030.WAA26876@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Bishop wrote:
>Well, seeing how Mr. Treibs is not a Nazi, satan worshipper, or pagan
>fundamentalist, I doubt that the ACLU will want much to do with him.

This slur is unwarranted.  The ACLU has a long tradition of defending
religious rights, even those of Christians.

My personal favorite is the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses in the
1950s.  The Witnesses believe that they cannot honestly pledge
allegiance to the flag.  They believe that they owe allegiance to God.
Were the government to act in a way that was other than God's
intention, they would be unable to cooperate.

This had to go all the way to the Supreme Court and it was the ACLU
that did it when nobody else would.

Be my guest to criticize the ACLU, but you'd do better to pick one of
their weak points.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 26 14:01:59 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 05:01:59 +0800
Subject: FIRING LINE DEBATE
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 4:04 pm -0400 on 9/26/97, Lyle Seaman wrote:


> Rodney, eh?  Some Producer isn't giving you much respect.


All the respect I deserve. :-).

Rodney Thayer, who's the IPSEC editor, among other things, is going to be
the event manager, and he's cc'd in the letter I sent out to begin with.
Some Producer got our names confused...

Besides, you'd better respect Rodney. The last time I saw him in a
flamewar, the other guy walked out holding his guts in his hands...

;-).


Oh. I talked to Some Producer this morning. He's pitching Buckley, et al.,
on the idea this weekend. I'll know by the beginning of next week.
December's open, and so are a bunch of months after April.

I haven't had this much fun since the hogs ate my little brother...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From holovacs at idt.net  Fri Sep 26 14:31:19 1997
From: holovacs at idt.net (jay holovacs)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 05:31:19 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <199709262107.RAA17847@u1.farm.idt.net>




==========================
   >From:    	"Paul Spirito" 
   >Date:    	Thu, Sep 25, 1997 11:58 PM
   >
   >And next year *is* an election year. If nothing awful happens, it shouldn't be much of an issue, but sooner or later there'll be a big bang made by terrorists who've used crypto in the plotting, & then anyone who opposed the FBI line will get drubbed, perhaps fatally (i.e. they'll lose their seat).

On the other hand a publicized security disaster or "infowar" attack could spin things in the other direction.

Jay







From jsmith58 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 26 15:12:54 1997
From: jsmith58 at hotmail.com (John Smith)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:12:54 +0800
Subject: Technology center
Message-ID: <19970926215538.6978.qmail@hotmail.com>



One of the parts that got added to the SAFE bill is this new
Technology center.  It is supposed to help the FBI when they
run into encryption.

We all know that's not going to work.  Not very well anyway.
Maybe if it's some bogus encryption like the SMIME that has a
new crack program out for it, they'll get through it.  But if it
is real crypto then there's no way the Technology center is going
to be cracking keys.

What I think they'll do is work on virus software.  They can write
something which will hack the crypto on your PC and make it weak.
If they want to wiretap some drug dealer, they get him to download
one of their programs somehow.  Maybe they've got a Java bug which
lets them hack files when he goes to a certain web page.  Or maybe
they get him to download some free demo of a game or interaction
service (hotchicks.com).  Whatever, the program actually looks for
PGP and other crypto software and hacks it.  Now the FBI can read
his stuff.

This is probably even legal.  If they could break into his house and
stick a bug in his computer, why can't they do the same thing
electronically.

They might even want to set things up ahead of time so that crypto
software gets hacked for everyone.  They won't look, see, unless
they get a judge to OK it.  But they get some utility that everybody
uses like realaudio or winzip, and they convince the author to put
in their hack.  Now everybody who uses this has their crypto broken.
The FBI promises not to do any decryption without a warrant, so they
haven't actually stolen anyone's privacy.

Maybe they could even set it up so that it was only broken for the
FBI, that anybody else wouldn't be able to read it.

Do you think would try this?  What would you do if you were an
a**hole and ran the Technology center?

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 15:26:18 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:26:18 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: <199709262030.WAA26876@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



The ACLU certainly deserves criticism for its knee-jerk left-wing view on
some issues. I'd also be interested in seeing them take a stand on 2nd
Amendment issues; right now they don't have a position, as I understand it.
But on free speech and SSN-type issues they're generally good.

I forwarded the original "Plea from a parent" message to some folks at the
ACLU who expressed an interest in helping out.

-Declan

PS: Jane Fonda, of all people, just stopped by the bureau for a
correspondent's birthday party! Sure, we had Newt here on Monday, but Fonda
-- there's a //real// celebrity...



At 22:30 +0200 9/26/97, Anonymous wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>John Bishop wrote:
>>Well, seeing how Mr. Treibs is not a Nazi, satan worshipper, or pagan
>>fundamentalist, I doubt that the ACLU will want much to do with him.
>
>This slur is unwarranted.  The ACLU has a long tradition of defending
>religious rights, even those of Christians.
>
>My personal favorite is the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses in the
>1950s.  The Witnesses believe that they cannot honestly pledge
>allegiance to the flag.  They believe that they owe allegiance to God.
>Were the government to act in a way that was other than God's
>intention, they would be unable to cooperate.
>
>This had to go all the way to the Supreme Court and it was the ACLU
>that did it when nobody else would.
>
>Be my guest to criticize the ACLU, but you'd do better to pick one of
>their weak points.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
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>=9B3r
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From jonl at well.com  Fri Sep 26 15:28:19 1997
From: jonl at well.com (Jon Lebkowsky)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:28:19 +0800
Subject: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970926165458.03321b18@mail.onr.com>



At 03:09 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:

>We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
>might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
>willing to stand up and simply oppose everything.   It was not in the
>cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
>throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
>with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
>provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
>policy reform.
>
>That's why we have described the vote on cryto.com as a "vote in favor of
>privacy".  I do not expect that this will convince all of our detractors,
>but I do hope this clarifies the substance of Declan's criticism.

One of the realities of politics is that every gain for the opposition
contributes to a critical mass that can result in eventual passage of 'bad'
legislation. Though I tend to be pragmatic, I'm concerned that we tend to
give away too much early on in the legislative process.  Considering that
there is substantial opposition (by attorneys, professors, and corporations
as well as by crypto-anarchists) to crypto restrictions on the table, we
hurt ourselves if we declare a partial win as anything but a loss at this
point. Consider that crypto is hard to grasp for many, and we may be
feeding complacency with  unrealistic claims of victory.

----
jonl at well.com
http://www.well.com/~jonl






From holovacs at idt.net  Fri Sep 26 15:32:49 1997
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:32:49 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970926232407.00673bc0@idt.net>



At 11:54 PM 9/25/97 -0400, David HM Spector wrote:
>

>The absolute positions "handcuffed" law enforcement while also raising
>rights for citizens to levels that were unreasonable and that would
>have been foreign to the nation's founding fathers. Extreme privacy
>positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that they
>presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt
>the views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court,
>McDonald said.

Elected officials? FBI and NSA lifers are about as far as possible from 
accountable elected officials. (And the whole point to elected officials is
that they can be influenced by the constituents)

I was told by a House staffer (a relative) that within the FBI many of
the agents resent Freeh, they feel he is giving away the store (!!!) because
of some policies he supposedly has taken to prevent another JE Hoover (though
I can hardly imagine what). Anyhow this staffer said, he would really worry
about such gung-ho agents having access to private communications.
>
Jay






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 26 15:34:09 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:34:09 +0800
Subject: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
Message-ID: <199709262216.AAA08669@basement.replay.com>



Jonah Seiger didn't have any better sense than to write:

> We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
> might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
> willing to stand up and simply oppose everything.   It was not in the
> cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
> throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
> with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
> provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
> policy reform.

   ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY!!!!????!!!!????

  Do you remember the NRA? You know, the organization that used to 
refuse to compromise on defending the Constitution?
  Well, they decided to play DC's game, and now they are nothing more
than a bunch of lame fucks who spend their time trying to explain to
their dwindling membership that people with half-a-brain and a modicum
of common sense need to give up their right to self-defense so that
brainless retards won't get murdered with their own guns.

  Louis Freeh wants cryptographers' nuts and the CDT wants to tell us
that giving him *one* nut is "a step forward."

NEWS FLASH FOR THE LAME FUCKS AT CDT!!!!

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights *do*not* end with the words:
  "...just kidding!"
  "...unless it's too much trouble."
  "...except for drug dealers, pedophiles, pornographers and
terrorists."
  "...except for niggers, spics, wops and kikes."
  "...except for women."
  "...except for communists."
  "...except for Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM."
  "...unless the 'legitimate needs of law enforcement' necessitate the
  abandonment and/or abrogation of all basic human rights."
  "...up until the time comes when people purporting to defend basic
  human rights guaranteed under the Constitution decide to support the
  compromise of the rights of others."

 > That's why we have described the vote on cryto.com as a "vote in
favor of
> privacy".  I do not expect that this will convince all of our detractors,
> but I do hope this clarifies the substance of Declan's criticism.

  Declan's criticism does not *need* clarifying.
  What needs clarifying is how CDT and it's bum-buddy organizations can
possibly claim to justify the turning of 'rights' into 'privleges' which
can then be revoked by those who claim to 'grant' them.

  Is CDT going to desribe the vote for the law allowing the citizens of
the US to take 'reasonable' breathes of air as "a vote in favor of
breathing?"
  Do us all a favor and stand next to the lawyers so that Shakespeare
doesn't have to waste bullets when people of reason get tired of 
letting the lame fucks rule the planet.

Toto (posting anonymously)

> As always, I am happy to respond to queries about CDT's positions and
> tactics, but I am not interested in engaging in public flame throwing.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jonah
> 
> * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
>             Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt
> 
> --
> Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
> Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
> 
>                                                     PGP Key via finger
> http://www.cdt.org
> http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger






From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu  Fri Sep 26 15:38:03 1997
From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:38:03 +0800
Subject: OpenPGP approved for standards track by IETF
Message-ID: <199709262223.SAA13677@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>




-- forwarded message --
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:51:52 -0600
From: nospam at synernet.com
Subject: OPEN-PGP" APPROVED FOR STANDARDS TRACK BY IETF
Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,comp.security.pgp.discuss,alt.security,talk.politics.crypto,alt.privacy,alt.privacy.anon-server
Message-ID: <875299757.20568 at dejanews.com>
Reply-To: nospam at synernet.com
Organization: Deja News USENET Posting Service
X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Sep 26 18:49:17 1997 GMT
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Lines: 99
Xref: wmich-news comp.security.pgp.discuss:5111

"OPEN-PGP" APPROVED FOR STANDARDS TRACK BY INTERNET
ENGINEERING TASK FORCE

Working Group formed to pave worldwide protocol for secure communication

SAN MATEO, Calif. (Sept. 25, 1997) -- In a milestone decision for the
standardization of secure electronic communications worldwide, the
Internet Engineering Steering Group today unanimously approved the
formation of an official IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force) Working
Group to develop a secure email specification called "Open-PGP."   The
proposed Open-PGP standard will build on Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.'s (PGP)
encryption technology, which already is used by millions of individuals
around the globe.

To facilitate an international standard and promote growth of the
Internet, as well as related industries worldwide, PGP released
change-control of its technology to the Internet Society (ISOC), and the
Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG).

"As the IETF Security Area Director, I'm very pleased that PGP Inc.
yielded change control to the standards body," said Dr. Jeff Schiller,
manager of Computer Services at MIT. "MIT has been a proponent of PGP from
the very start -- in 1991, MIT distributed the first non-commercial
version of PGP for free, and since then, has been hosting the public key
(certificate) server for worldwide access," he said.

Phil Dunkelberger, president of PGP, said, "This development is in keeping
with PGP's commitment to protecting security of business and personal
communications, and our founding principal of the universal right to
privacy.  We've never been interested in industry domination at the
expense of the users."

According to Charles Breed, director of security technology, PGP, and
co-chair of the IETF Working Group, "Despite the industry's reputation for
aggressive competition, there was unilateral support when Open-PGP was
first proposed at the Munich IETF meeting a month ago.  More than 150
people representing US companies were present, as well as businesses from
Singapore, Japan, the UK and Europe."

"Open-PGP" will tackle a major obstacle to the growth of the Internet,
plagued at present by policy and technical incompatibilities from country
to country.  The proposed standard is an unencumbered, non-proprietary
specification that will guarantee interoperability of encrypted and
digitally signed messages, and provide strong encryption and
non-repudiation with  digital signatures. Open-PGP will be developed by a
consortium of experts, using technology that has provided privacy to
Internet email and electronic files since 1991 in products from more than
80 manufacturers worldwide. The Open-PGP specification will be available
for peer and public review as it develops.

Alternative proposals that have failed in the past, such as PEM (Privacy
Enhanced Mail), MOSS (MIME object Security Systems) and most recently,
S/MIME (Secure MIME from RSA), depended on complex infrastructures or were
encumbered by legal patents, royalties, and export restrictions forcing
the use of weak encryption practices.

"I expect the Open-PGP specification will progress quickly, because it's
well understood, simple and our mailing list on the topic suggests it has
a great deal of vendor support already.  It has all the elements for a
comprehensive solution: trust models, certificate infrastructure, encoding
rules, securing MIME and the cryptographic algorithms," said Paul Hoffman,
director of the Internet Mail Consortium (IMC), a non-profit organization
that promotes the growth of Internet protocols.

"Open-PGP applications will be easy for corporations and individuals to
use, and will be based on strong, freely available, well-known
cryptographic techniques that are the foundation of PGP's technology,"
said John Noerenberg, senior development manager at Qualcomm's Eudora
Division.
"Eudora is the top-selling Internet mail application and our users are
very pleased with the PGP-based security component."

For more information about Open-PGP or subscribe to the IMC mail list,
visit the IMC worldwide web site at http://www.ietf-open-pgp.imc.org.

About PGP San Mateo-based, Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. (PGP), is the pioneer
and worldwide de facto standard for business security and personal
privacy, with an estimated four million users of its encryption products,
including more than half of the Fortune 100 companies.  PGP is committed
to providing the most advanced security products for the digital age,
safeguarding the communication and storage of information.  For more
information, visit our website at http://www.pgp.com.


Contact: Robin Rootenberg/Monika Madrid
Access Communications
1-800-393-7737 ext. 282/227
rrootenberg at accesspr.com/mmadrid at accesspr.com"


--
----------------------------
Ed Stone
estone at synernet-robin.com
remove "-birdname" spam avoider
----------------------------

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
-- end of forwarded message --






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 26 15:42:35 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:42:35 +0800
Subject: We're in BIG trouble now! / Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199709262215.AAA08524@basement.replay.com>



The Graham-John Bullers autobot wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Declan is smart.
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 
> Do you understand why now.

  Shit!
  The Graham-John Bullers autobot has learned how to think in a
rudimentary fashion that allows it to respond to posts in a manner
that comes close to imitating rational thought.
  How long, I ask you, until it decides to run for President?

Igor (posting anonymously)







From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 15:49:06 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 06:49:06 +0800
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.13 on crypto and more
Message-ID: 



Note this excerpt on the problems of Markey-White:

>While surviving the draconian Oxley-Manton amendment, the SAFE bill,
>originally introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) to relax U.S.
>export controls on encryption products, did not emerge from the
>Commerce Committee unscathed.  The committee adopted an amendment
>offered by Reps. Ed Markey (D-MA) and Rick White (R-WA) that would
>create a new National Electronic Technologies (NET) Center within the
>Justice Department.  The NET Center would engage in research and
>"examine encryption techniques and methods to facilitate the ability
>of law enforcement to gain efficient access to plaintext of
>communications and electronic information."  The NET Center would be
>authorized to seek the assistance of "any department or agency of the
>Federal Government" in support of its mission, thereby providing
>explicit statutory authority for National Security Agency involvement
>in domestic law enforcement activities.  The Markey-White amendment
>also doubles the penalty for the use of encryption in furtherance of a
>felony and provides that "No person shall be subject to civil or
>criminal liability for providing access to the plaintext of encrypted
>communications or electronic information to any law enforcement
>official or authorized government entity, pursuant to judicial
>process."

Question to ponder for the weekend: if it took this kind of "compromise"
for a bill to clear the unabashedly pro-business Commerce committee, what
will it take for a bill to become law?

-Declan


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:33:43 -0400
From: Electronic Privacy Info Center 
To: List 
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.13

   ==============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.13	                             September 26, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/

=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] House Committee Rejects Domestic Crypto Ban
[2] HHS Releases Medical Privacy Recommendations
[3] Employment Eligibility Pilot Programs Begin
[4] White House Commission Urges Scrutiny of Private Employees
[5] ID Cards to Cost $10 Billion
[6] Imagine: FBI Finally Releases John Lennon Files
[7] New Bills in Congress
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] House Committee Rejects Domestic Crypto Ban
=======================================================================

The House Commerce Committee has rejected an FBI-backed proposal to
impose the first-ever domestic controls on encryption.  In a 35-16
vote on September 24, the committee defeated an amendment to the SAFE
crypto bill offered by Reps. Michael Oxley (R-OH) and Thomas Manton
(D-NY) that would have banned the domestic manufacture and sale of
encryption products that do not provide law enforcement agencies easy
access to encrypted information.  Speaking in opposition to the
amendment, many committee members cited the unprecedented assault on
privacy and civil liberties that would result if the FBI proposal was
adopted.

While surviving the draconian Oxley-Manton amendment, the SAFE bill,
originally introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) to relax U.S.
export controls on encryption products, did not emerge from the
Commerce Committee unscathed.  The committee adopted an amendment
offered by Reps. Ed Markey (D-MA) and Rick White (R-WA) that would
create a new National Electronic Technologies (NET) Center within the
Justice Department.  The NET Center would engage in research and
"examine encryption techniques and methods to facilitate the ability
of law enforcement to gain efficient access to plaintext of
communications and electronic information."  The NET Center would be
authorized to seek the assistance of "any department or agency of the
Federal Government" in support of its mission, thereby providing
explicit statutory authority for National Security Agency involvement
in domestic law enforcement activities.  The Markey-White amendment
also doubles the penalty for the use of encryption in furtherance of a
felony and provides that "No person shall be subject to civil or
criminal liability for providing access to the plaintext of encrypted
communications or electronic information to any law enforcement
official or authorized government entity, pursuant to judicial
process."

In a letter sent to the Commerce Committee prior to the vote, EPIC
joined with the American Civil Liberties Union, Eagle Forum, Americans
for Tax Reform and other groups in urging members to oppose "any
proposal establishing a legal structure for key recovery even if
temporarily 'voluntary,' any so-called 'compromise' provision drawn
from Oxley-Manton . . . , and any new proposal that would limit the
availability and use of strong encryption."

The fate of the SAFE bill is now uncertain.  The original Goodlatte
language has been substantially amended by five House committees, with
contradictory results.  Rep. Gerald Solomon (R-NY), chairman of the
House Rules Committee, has indicated that he will not send the
legislation to the House floor unless it contains the Oxley-Manton
domestic controls.  As such, SAFE may no longer be a viable vehicle
for the reform of encryption policy that it was originally intended to
promote.

PDF versions of House Commerce Committee documents on the SAFE bill
are available at:

     http://www.house.gov/commerce/full/092497/markup.htm

=======================================================================
[2] HHS Releases Medical Privacy Recommendations
=======================================================================

Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Donna Shalala released the
Department's recommendations for a new medical privacy bill on
September 11, calling for legislation that would generally protect all
medical records.  In addition, HHS says medical records should not be
used by employers and others for making non-medical decisions;
patients would have the right to sue if their records were disclosed
improperly and criminal and civil penalties could be imposed.

On a number of issues, the guidelines fall short.  HHS recommends that
there be no new laws preventing law enforcement access to medical
records, essentially enabling law enforcement and other government
officials to obtain medical records without a court order.  In
addition, on the issue of medical research, the guidelines recommend
that personally identifiable records be used for medical research
without the consent of the patient.  They also ignore the issue of
whether a single unique identifier such as a Social Security number
should be used to link all medical records in a nationwide network of
records.

Importantly, HHS recommends that any new medical privacy law should
not preempt already existing state or federal laws that provide
greater protection.  A major bill introduced last year by Sen. Robert
Bennett (R-UT) would have prevented states from providing more
protection to their citizens.  Many states have enacted laws giving
stronger privacy protection to records on substance abuse, AIDS and
mental health.  Some states, such as Massachusetts, are currently in
the process of enacting comprehensive privacy legislation.

The text of the HHS recommendations and more information on medical
privacy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/medical/

=======================================================================
[3] Employment Eligibility Pilot Programs Begin
=======================================================================

The Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) and the Social
Security Administration (SSA) have announced three pilot programs for
verifying eligibility of employees to work within the United States.
The pilot programs were ordered by the Congress as part of the
Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 in a
compromise attempt to avoid creation of a national identification
system.

The three programs are the Basic Pilot; the Citizen Attestation Pilot;
and the Machine-Readable Document Pilot.  The Basic Pilot requires
that employers verify the employment eligibility of all new employees
through automated verification checks of SSA and INS databases using a
telephone.  The Citizen Attestation Pilot only checks the status of
new employees who attest they are not U.S. citizens, but is limited to
states where drivers' licenses are acceptable to the INS -- presumably
those having the SSN on the face of the license.  In the Machine
Readable Pilot, the procedures are similar to the Basic Pilot except
in states with machine readable licenses (currently, only Iowa is
eligible).

Each government department is required to assign a pilot program to at
least one agency within the department.  In addition, companies that
have been found to violate the Immigration Act can be compelled to
join in the program.  The pilot programs will last for four years
unless Congress re-authorizes them.

=======================================================================
[4] White House Commission Urges Scrutiny of Private Employees
=======================================================================

A special Presidential commission will recommend that certain private
sector employees be subjected to in-depth background checks and
polygraph examinations.  Speaking before The Bankers Roundtable on
September 11, Robert T. Marsh, Chairman of the President's Commission
on Critical Infrastructure Protection, previewed the "core
recommendations" that will be transmitted to the White House.
Addressing "privacy issues in the employer-employee relationship,"
Marsh said:

     Throughout its year-long effort, the Commission has
     struggled to address the competing interests of
     security and privacy and the trade-offs between these
     two interests. . . . We are going to recommend that
     the Administration and Congress study ways to make
     some of the tools that the federal government uses to
     perform background checks and issue security clearances
     more readily available to employers within the critical
     infrastructures, at least in filling certain sensitive
     positions within those infrastructures. These efforts
     may afford you, for example, a greater ability to
     inquire into and make use of criminal history
     information, employment histories, and credit history
     information. Amendments should also be made to federal
     polygraph law to include within the scope of current
     exemptions those who are in the business of providing
     information security services.

The "critical infrastructures," as defined by Executive Order 13010,
include "telecommunications, electrical power systems, gas and oil
storage and transportation, banking and finance, transportation, water
supply systems, emergency services (including medical, police, fire,
and rescue), and continuity of government."

The full text of the Marsh address is available at:

     http://www.pccip.gov/marsh_banker.html

=======================================================================
[5] ID Cards to Cost $10 Billion
=======================================================================

The Social Security Administration announced on September 22 that it
would cost up to $10 billion to re-issue Social Security cards as
tamper-proof identifiers.

Congress required the SSA to assess the cost as part of the 1996
immigration and welfare bills.  The SSA report reviews the history of
the SSN from its creation in 1935 through the current day.  The report
declines to make any policy recommendations, but recognizes some of
the privacy issues raised by the use of the SSN as a national
identifier.  An appendix to the report includes pending legislation
that would limit the SSN's use.

The report examines the different technologies for ID cards from basic
plain plastic cards to smart cards, including those that would include
a picture or biometric identifier.  It notes that SSA cannot
accurately assess how many actual SSNs are in use -- the agency is
only able to estimate a range between 269 and 327 million.  At least
10 million are estimated to be duplicate numbers.

More information on national identification cards is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

=======================================================================
[6] Imagine: FBI Finally Releases John Lennon Files
=======================================================================

After resisting disclosure for more than 15 years, the Federal Bureau
of Investigation has released almost all of its secret files on John
Lennon.  The documents underscore the sometimes questionable rationale
for FBI surveillance operations and the importance of public oversight
of those activities.

Since being sued under the Freedom of Information Act in 1983, the
Bureau had steadfastly withheld the Lennon files on "national security"
grounds.  Now released, the records document FBI surveillance of the
former Beatle's political activities, under the close supervision of
the Nixon White House.  Significantly, none of the disclosed files
describe Lennon as involved in any illegal act.  In December 1995, U.S.
District Judge Robert Takasugi directed the FBI to disclose whether it
had "used unlawful activities in connection with the Lennon
investigation."  Rather than respond to the questions, the FBI
negotiated a settlement to release the documents.

Ironically, the Lennon files were released as a senior FBI official
told an international privacy conference that "extreme" privacy
concerns have "handcuffed" law enforcement's ability to investigate
criminal activity.  FBI Counsel Alan McDonald told the International
Conference on Privacy in Montreal that, "Based on a theory of potential
government abuse, important tools commonly used are to be restricted or
embargoed."

More information on the FBI investigation of John Lennon is available
at:

     http://www.bagism.com/library/fbi-rock-criticism.html

=======================================================================
[7] New Bills in Congress
=======================================================================

HR 2215, Genetic Nondiscrimination in the Workplace Act. Introduced by
Kennedy (D-MA) on July 22.  Amends Fair Labor Standards Act to restrict
employers in obtaining, disclosing, and using of genetic information.
Referred to the Committee on Education and the Workforce.

HR 2216, Genetic Protection in Insurance Coverage Act.  Introduced by
Kennedy (D-MA) on July 22.  Limits the disclosure and use of genetic
information by life and disability insurers.  Prohibits insurers from
requiring genetic tests, denying coverage, setting rates based on
genetics, using or maintain genetic info.  Referred to the Committee on
Commerce.

HR 2275, Genetic Employment Protection Act of 1997.  Introduced by
Lowery (D-NY) on July 25.  Prohibits employers, unions from
discriminating on basis of genetic information.  Referred to the
Committee on Education and the Workforce.

H.R.2368, Data Privacy Act of 1997.  Introduced by Tauzin (R-LA) on
July 31.  Recommends that businesses create voluntary guidelines to
protect privacy, and stop spamming.  Referred to the Committee on
Commerce.

HR 2369, Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997.  Introduced by
Tauzin (R-LA) on July 31.  Expands ban and penalties on sale of
scanners that can intercept cellular and digital communications and
interception of communications.  Referred to the Committee on Commerce.

HR 2372, Internet Protection Act of 1997.  Introduced by White (R-WA)
on July 31.  Limits FCC and state ability to regulate Internet.
Referred to the Committee on Commerce.

HR 2404, Stop the Theft of Our Social Security Numbers Act.  Introduced
by Filner (D-CA) on September 4.  Prohibits IRS mailings that include
SSN unless it is inside sealed envelope.  Referred to the Committee on
Ways and Means.

HR 2507, ATM Public Safety and Crime Control Act.  Introduced by Nadler
(R-NY).  Requires banks to install better surveillance cameras in ATMs.
Referred to the Committee on Banking and Financial Services.

S. 1146, Digital Copyright Clarification and Technology Education Act
of 1997.  Introduced by Ashcroft (R-MO).  Sets up new rules for
copyright in digital networks.  Referred to the Committee on the
Judiciary.

=======================================================================
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Net Worth, Net Work: Technology and Values for the Digital Age. October
4-5. University of Cal, Berkeley. Sponsored by CPSR. Contact:
http://www.cpsr.org/dox/home.html

20th National Information Systems Security Conference. October 7-10.
Baltimore, MD. Sponsored by NIST and NSA. Contact:
http://csrc.nist.gov/nissc/

EPIC International Privacy Conference. October 20,1997. Georgetown
University Law Center, Washington, DC. Sponsored by EPIC. Contact:
shauna at epic.org.

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington,
DC. Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html

RSA'98 -- The 1998 RSA Data Security Conference.  January 12-16, 1998.
San Francisco, CA.  Contact kurt at rsa.com or http://www.rsa.com/conf98/


             (Send calendar submissions to alert at epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to epic-news at epic.org wih
the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest
research center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to
focus public attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper
Chip, the Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical
record privacy, and the collection and sale of personal information.
EPIC is sponsored by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a
non-profit organization established in 1974 to protect civil liberties
and constitutional rights.  EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues
Freedom of Information Act litigation, and conducts policy research.
For more information, e-mail info at epic.org, http://www.epic.org or
write EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC
20003. +1 202 544 9240 (tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center, contributions are welcome and fully
tax-deductible.  Checks should be made out to "The Fund for
Constitutional Government" and sent to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave.,
SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003. Individuals with First Virtual
accounts can donate at http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and
First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the
right of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of
encryption and funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

  ---------------------- END EPIC Alert 4.13 -----------------------

..









From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Fri Sep 26 16:06:02 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:06:02 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Please excuse my reluctance to fund your dedicated line, but probably
> the money would be better spent subsidizing hardware for people who
> are willing to set up remailers.
Sadly, I have to concur with the previous comments - but I'll go one better.
Send me twenty bucks a month to cover the local phone company's charges
for a second line, and I can get latency down to under an hour.  I'll just
put in an every-15-minutes-or-so crontab to dial up, fetch my system's mail,
and process it.

> Incidentally, if somebody offered you colocation space, would you be
> willing to set up your machine there?
I wouldn't, and I hope not many other remailer operators would either.
A lot of the security on my machine comes from having physical control over
it. (That includes the ability to rapidly delete things with extreme
prejudice should the spooks come knocking at the door.) If I'm not sleeping
in the room next to my machine, I don't have that kind of control.

Also, I can't afford a second machine so I have to keep this one around for
personal use :(

dave (bureau42 remailer admin)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCw6f66m0j5YvamrEQIN4ACfT7XirNvtvAMG9hpbtI9YclwY+3oAnjdM
xBaiL5pG+FkOGVtGfdGuDASB
=kSpE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From aptbnl at dev.null  Fri Sep 26 16:25:26 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:25:26 +0800
Subject: Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.00 / Re: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970926165458.03321b18@mail.onr.com>
Message-ID: <342C3D7F.7229@dev.null>



Jon Lebkowsky wrote:
> Though I tend to be pragmatic, I'm concerned that we tend to
> give away too much early on in the legislative process.  Considering that
> there is substantial opposition (by attorneys, professors, and corporations
> as well as by crypto-anarchists) to crypto restrictions on the table, we
> hurt ourselves if we declare a partial win as anything but a loss at this
> point. Consider that crypto is hard to grasp for many, and we may be
> feeding complacency with  unrealistic claims of victory.

 Bad news, gang! I've re-upped my liquor supply and I am therefore not
prone to suffer fools gladly, for the moment.

 Please answer the following question for me:
"When was the last time you 'compromised' in a game of Monopoly?"

  "Golly, gee. If you can't afford to pay the rent for landing on Park
Place, with my four hotels in place, why don't I cut you a little slack
so that you can make a comeback and rip my throat out later in the
game."

  Monopoly has rules. Cribbage has rules. You never hear anyone saying,
"Fourteen? Close enough! Count it as fourteen-two."

  Why is it that people who would castigate, slander and lynch a person
who cheats at golf, are so eager to preach 'compromise' with those who
want to cheat at 'the Constitution'?

  "The rules say, 'not closer to the hole' you dipshit! You can't throw
the ball 50 feet toward the green!"
~versus~
  "Sure it *says* "the right to bear arms," but it doesn't really *mean*
that. It really means "the right to bear arms, unless Congress says that
your rifle is a 'gimme'."

  "Yeah, Tiger, just 'kick' that ball in the hole, and we'll give you 
the trophy."

  "We'll just round 'pi' off to 3.0 and...Hey! Where did my circle go?
It's those fucking drug dealing, terrorist pedophiles that took my 
circle, isn't it? We'll declare a 'War on Pi' and Key Escrow their
sorry asses. That'll solve the problem. Of course, we'll have to 
make using the correct value of 'pi' in the commission of a crime
a fucking felony, but we have to think of the children."

Nobody (posting anonymosly)
"Stop making sense, Amelia." ~~David Burn ('em if you got 'em)






From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 16:32:42 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:32:42 +0800
Subject: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
Message-ID: 



The problem with all the current bills like original SAFE and ProCODE is
that they're too wimpy, abstract, arcane. Who cares about protecting
business? Nobody, at least not when you'll be dubbed soft on crime. So
what's the one thing everyone cares about and wants to protect?

Yes, that's right: CHILDREN!!!! I think someone should introduce a bill
called "The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act of
1997."

The summary: "To reduce crime, protect our children, and secure our private
communications from child molesters, pedophiles, and various perverts, this
bill would spur the development of privacy-enhancing technologies by
removing all export controls on encryption products."

Who would ever vote against the CMPA? Who wants to be soft on child
molesters and random perverts? Not even Louis Freeh could successfully
oppose this one...

-Declan

(Okay, okay. It's a Friday. Time for me to go home...)


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 26 16:41:30 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:41:30 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Sandy Sandfort  writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> Folks,
>
> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
> > Somebody please tell me that this is a forged quote.... We are now
> > "privacy extremists"? What's next? "Privacy militia"?
>
> I wouldn't expect anything less from a "surveillance extremist."
>
>
>  S a n d y
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I wouldn't expect anything less from a "C2Net moderation extremist".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 26 16:43:12 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:43:12 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Declan McCullagh  writes:

> At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
> >my plug.
> 
> Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.
> 
> Want me to post the complete text of our interview? You were rather
Go ahead, forger.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 26 16:47:16 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:47:16 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Declan McCullagh  writes:

> At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
> >my plug.
>
> Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.

This is a lie.  I pointed out the forgery right after Declan posted his
netly news piece on this mailing list.  You may recall that Declan was
one of the few people openly supportive of Gilmore's censorship - both
in his mailing list traffic and editorializing in his netly news piece.

The only reason why I mentioned Declan's forgery again is because I saw
Declan's lack of accuracy and disregard for the truth being discussed
again, by CDT.  I don't know why he worked up his panties in such a knot.

Declan's been trying to picture himself as a "freedom fighter" of sorts
on this forum. Well, the truth is that he supported Gilmore's censorship
and more recently didn't allow me to read his mailing list, aptly
named "fight-censorship".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From berezina at qed.net  Fri Sep 26 16:48:03 1997
From: berezina at qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:48:03 +0800
Subject: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE
Message-ID: <19970926233454361.AAA280@antigone>



From: jay holovacs :

>>
==========================
   >From:    "Paul Spirito" 
   >Date:    Thu, Sep 25, 1997 11:58 PM
   >
   >And next year *is* an election year. If nothing awful happens, it shouldn't be much of an issue, but sooner or later there'll be a big bang made by terrorists who've used crypto in the plotting, & then anyone who opposed the FBI line will get drubbed, perhaps fatally (i.e. they'll lose their seat).

On the other hand a publicized security disaster or "infowar" attack could spin things in the other direction.
<<

Hmm... I assume hackers will attack the GAK infrastructure as soon as its begun. Terrorists or freedom fighters? You make the call.

Paul

ujgdejoxenotejotmbgtang ircpqbgluzstizg







From aptbnl at dev.null  Fri Sep 26 16:49:26 1997
From: aptbnl at dev.null (A Player To Be Named Later)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:49:26 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <342C45FE.1784@dev.null>



David E. Smith wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1237586.9628-A7

Since I am generally up all night, under the influence of illegal drugs,
and am an extremely impatient individual--after sending an anonymous 
email at 4 a.m. when all the decent remailer users are in bed, sleeping,
I then send a half-dozen bullshit posts via the same remailer in order
to trigger the remailer into sending the posts out.
Invariably, I find that the post I was so eager to see in print is an
incomprehensible piece of crap that nobody in their right mind would
read, but my 'system' for expiditing my lame posts could conceivably
be used by those who actually have something to say, as well.

And, since you asked, would it not be in the interests of remailer
operators to have a script which would generate random text, encrypt
it to various remailers and send it out as 'cover traffic'?
It would seem to me that this would be particularly valuable for the
remailers that receive the least amount of traffic.

A Player To Be Named Later (posting non-anomymously)






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 26 16:59:49 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:59:49 +0800
Subject: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Declan McCullagh  writes:

> Yes, that's right: CHILDREN!!!! I think someone should introduce a bill
> called "The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act of
> 1997."
>
> The summary: "To reduce crime, protect our children, and secure our private
> communications from child molesters, pedophiles, and various perverts, this
> bill would spur the development of privacy-enhancing technologies by
> removing all export controls on encryption products."

The worst pedophiles on Internet today are Chris Lewis, a Canadian, and
Nick Sandru, a Romanian living in Denmark.

There's a web site dedicated to listing pedophiles from California -
I think it's http://www.sexoffenders.com.  Can someone please check
if the usual suspects are there?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Fri Sep 26 17:09:15 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:09:15 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <1DwNDe13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May  writes:

> At 7:41 AM -0700 9/26/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >[CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
> >for him to answer my questions. --Declan]
>
> Let us know what happens. I'd guess that your editors do nothing. Not
> exactly a fireable offense. ...

Declan's been trying to build up a reputation as a freedom of speech
advocate.  Even I was taken in by his deception until Steve Boursy
opened by eyes and told me that Declan is a pro-censorship scumbag.

As for Declan's employers, it's not a freedom of speech issue. He gets
paid to write. If he continues to write lies and to fabricate quotes,
they'll be right to fire him. He's free to continue lying on his own time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Sep 26 17:33:02 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:33:02 +0800
Subject: Welcome back, Sandy!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <342C514D.62F@sk.sympatico.ca>



Sandy Sandfort wrote something really lame, but I'm glad he's back,
anyway:

Sandy,
  I'm glad you're back.
  I've been trying to flame the current list contributors, but they
just don't present such an inviting target as you do--not that they
don't try.

  Since your absence on the list, there have been those who have tried
to support asinine positions, but none of them have had your ability
to do so with the complete clueless lack of recognition of basic logic
that you bring to the task.

  Certainly, there will be those who take my violent, irrational 
animosity toward you as a sign that I secretly lust for your tight,
smooth derriere, but those are mostly people who follow Dimitri's
posts, so what the hell do they know, eh?
  No matter how nonsensical my baseless, arbitrary attacks on your
integrity and character, we will always be able to look back in 
fondness on the night we spent together in Nuevo Laredo. 
(Unless that was my brother...I was really drunk.)

  Regardless, no matter how boring the list has been in your absence,
I have remained a list member solely in order that you would some day
feel comfortable returning to the list, knowing that there would be
at least one list member whose reputation capital was lower than yours.

  Please take your time getting aclimated to the list once again. As
proof of my sincerity in welcoming you back to the CypherPunks list, 
if it appears that your reputation capital is in danger of sinking 
even lower than mine, I will reveal myself as a champion of GAK and
Key Escrow, in order to keep you from having to scrape your knees
on the steps of the tomb of the Unknown Cocksucker.

  Please be assured that my motives for celebrating your return to
the list have nothing to do with the fact that I am in everybody
else's killfiles.
  I change my list persona two or three times a week in order to
circumvent the efforts of other list subscribers to avoid my 
senseless rants.

  I am still, despite efforts to dissuade me from my ghoul, the chief
proponent of strange crypto on the CypherPukes lisp, despite ? the
Platypus's frogulent clams to the cuntrary.

Tojohoto
http:/huh?.eh?






From Syniker at aol.com  Fri Sep 26 17:35:04 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:35:04 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <970926202606_-899373567@emout19.mail.aol.com>



yes dec -- but is Jane using PGP???

Larry.






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Fri Sep 26 17:44:17 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:44:17 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
Message-ID: <199709270031.CAA28078@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The ACLU certainly deserves criticism for its knee-jerk left-wing
>view on some issues. I'd also be interested in seeing them take a
>stand on 2nd Amendment issues; right now they don't have a position,
>as I understand it.  But on free speech and SSN-type issues they're
>generally good.

The ACLU can be fairly criticized for their general sympathy to the
causes of the Democratic Party.  This would be acceptable if they were
honest about it, but they are not.

Likewise, while they may have no official position on the 2nd
amendment, you will generally find members of the organization are
staunchly opposed to it.  Again, no real tragedy except that their
advertising proclaims their organization is the only one in the United
States devoted to protecting the Bill of Rights.  Unfortunately, it
just isn't true.  They protect the amendments they like and ignore or,
in the case of the 2nd amendment, undermine the rest.

Most people probably don't know how the ACLU is structured.  There is
a national organization and then a variety of state level chapters
which have a great deal of autonomy.  The chapters do a lot of the day
to day work helping people who are getting severely screwed by their
local governments.  (There was a great case about ten years ago
involving a state sponsored alcohol rehabilitation program.  Once in,
it was understood that participants wouldn't be allowed to leave for
about 60 days so they could really dry out.  It seems there was a
little funding program and the facilities provided couldn't handle all
the people who applied.  So, they threw a bunch of the women in jail!
The ACLU chapters handle cases like this all the time.  They don't get
much credit for it and nobody else does much of this work.)

However, the chapters tend to be a little more squirrely than the
national organization.  Usually when you hear about some flaky case
"The ACLU" was pushing, it will turn out that a chapter was behind it.

About five years ago the Southern California chapter campaigned
against California Proposition 165 because it would cut welfare
benefits.  A friend and ACLU member complained that this was not a
civil liberties issue and they should not be campaigning for the
Democratic Party.

This letter came back:

>Dear Mr. X,
>
>First, let me apologize for the lengthy delay in answering your
>letter, which was recently referred to me from the National ACLU
>office.
>
>You question whether the ACLU met its charter mandate to preserve
>civil liberties when it opposed Prop. 165 on the ground that it would
>adversely affect the poor.  The ACLU-SC firmly believes that economic
>justic and civil liberties are inextricably intertwined.  Without the
>assurance of basic economic security -- including jobs that pay a fair
>living wage, adequate food, housing, and health care -- most people
>cannot fully exercise their civil liberties and civil rights.
>
>This office has consistently opposed cuts in federal, state, or local
>budgets that will adversely affect poor people who depend upon
>governmental assistance to fulfill their basic needs.  Poverty in the
>United States is the result, to a great extent, of government policies
>which favor privileged groups at the expense of the disadvantaged, and
>which deprive the latter of opportunities to enjoy the full range of
>rights guaranteed under the Constitution.
>
>Again, please accept my apology for not getting back to you sooner.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>J. Random Democrat
>Associate Director

While the ACLU is great in certain ways, so far as most cypherpunks
are concerned I recommend considering them to be uncertain allies.

It's sad.  If they were truly a multi-partisan organization which was
devoted to the Bill of Rights they would be many times more effective
than they are currently.  In principle there is no reason why the NRA
and the ACLU shouldn't be the same organization except the membership
of each brings too much baggage to the table.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCxGwZaWtjSmRH/5AQHwDgf+Oqe8QSQFE/NjrtV5pyEsI/Tra2Z9oq8I
j6Us0c03d7qeoFSDYcA3jyuGb2Zs8FSH9GuR8bJ/ZMjcBgfPLYgb+mXgBero6Uet
MlTEabwU1gNau8Rz66FKY2T1aiM7u972RUYscUyKZYmh9qp+T3xPUJoNBSPj99fS
jDinQd1AXZPOltB0NRrEXZInyPxwqKhRql9iQ5Azf8/r3DfxLgLWhj6gu2gd3+dw
WdYfuo+qHX1afmbHVVQrhyHoNa1UjkhKmgt0Va5ddONlik+7PhUsi0hm9dU2UnRW
hLZWOhoZaxrBc8BrT/43dLQFd1WinDAsYuN5CfSYT3L5o0oCCKvciA==
=jqeP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From stuey at geocities.com  Fri Sep 26 17:49:09 1997
From: stuey at geocities.com (stuey)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:49:09 +0800
Subject: Technology center
Message-ID: <199709270035.RAA01323@geocities.com>



 >What I think they'll do is work on virus software.  They can write
>something which will hack the crypto on your PC and make it weak.
>If they want to wiretap some drug dealer, they get him to download
>one of their programs somehow.  Maybe they've got a Java bug which
>lets them hack files when he goes to a certain web page.  Or maybe
>they get him to download some free demo of a game or interaction
>service (hotchicks.com).  Whatever, the program actually looks for
>PGP and other crypto software and hacks it.  Now the FBI can read
>his stuff.

What we have here is a technology race.  Assuming it is legal for a
hypothetical government organization to pull a stunt like that, we merely
build our own encryption software that is compatible with the current stuff,
or failing that have an unreasonable amount of different publically
available versions out there.
Tell me what virus can alter 50 different programs in a different fashion
and still be small enough to go unnoticed.
If you were to program your own private version of PGP and have it produce
output exactly the same as any version of PGP out there you wanted to, then
there's a good chance that it would be overlooked by viri, logic bombs,
trojans... and even if it wasn't there's an even better chance that a
specific virus would need to be written to hack your private version. and
what are the odds of actually infecting your particular desktop with the
naughty program that's gonna do the dirty work?
I admit that would take cnsiderable effort and the only reason for doing so
is to protect against thief software designed to steal your keys, but it can
be done. and probably would be done by many as a last resort / defense.

-Stu


"Work toward your vision of tomorrow, or you will surely live in someone
else's" -- Art Sackett










From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 26 17:57:25 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:57:25 +0800
Subject: Now we know why they ban crypto...
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS at INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
From: "VitaminB"
To: "DAILY DOSE"
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:17:40 -0700
Subject: <>(September 26, 1997) Le Brain Drain
Mime-Version: 1.0



Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

September 26, 1997

Le Brain Drain

In the age just past, a nation's natural resources were
the key to its success; today it is its intellectual capital.
And with the world linked like never before, nations
must nurture intellectual capital lest it walk away.
But don't believe us.  Ask our friend Olivier.

When Olivier Cardic figured out that if his electronics
company were based in England his 1995 net profit
would have been $300,000, compared to just $80,000
in France, he decided to do what 1,000 French
entrepreneurs have done already.  Move.  In the era
of globalization, voting with your feet becomes a pretty
easy stroll, especially when the country you're in is
France.  Consider this:  British employers pay 10.2%
of salaries in payroll taxes, compared with an insane
46% in France.  According to Jean-Pierre Letouzet,
president of RGA Systemes, a systems engineering
company, "We live in a Marxist system.  France has
never been capitalist.  We're not prepared for
globalization, and we're sinking."

Last year, Cardic asked French authorities on national
radio to, "Explain to me why it is better to be
unemployed in France than a worker in England?"
The French authorities didn't have an answer for him.
Neither do we.

Source:  _Business Week_, October 6, 1997

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 18:08:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:08:55 +0800
Subject: SSZ is back!...
Message-ID: <199709270116.UAA11608@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Just a quick note to say that SSZ is back after a 2 day downtime caused by
the phone company throwning my trunk onto another trunk because of a switch
in central office location (I'm closer to the new one). The only problem was
the ISDN wasn't listed in the to-throw list so that pair got pruned out.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cpunks at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 18:35:55 1997
From: cpunks at ssz.com (CDR Filter Account)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:35:55 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709270142.UAA12409@einstein.ssz.com>








From cpunks at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 18:41:35 1997
From: cpunks at ssz.com (CDR Filter Account)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:41:35 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709270142.UAA12410@einstein.ssz.com>








From qyDZS7G6b at netshel.net  Sat Sep 27 09:43:57 1997
From: qyDZS7G6b at netshel.net (qyDZS7G6b at netshel.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Are You In Need Of A Lifestyle Change...
Message-ID: <52KdL9>


Now for the first time ever you have the opportunity to join the most
extraordinary and most powerful wealth building program in the world!
This program has never been offered to the general public until now! 
Because of your desire to succeed, you have been given the opportunity
to take a close look at this program.

If you're skeptical, that's okay. Just make the call and see for
yourself.  My job is to inform you, your job is to make your own
decision.

If You Didn't Make $200,000.00 Last Year...

You  Owe  It  To  Yourself  And  Your  Family  To  Give  Our  Program
Serious Consideration!

Also, when you start making this kind of money within weeks, after
joining our team, you will actually learn how you can preserve it and
how to strategically invest it!

I invite you to call me for more details at 1-800-784-1710 EXT.1565.
This is a free 2 minute recording, so call right now!

Prosperous regards,

Paul  Rawlins 
This Is Not Multi Level Marketing/Serious Inquiries Only







From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 18:53:57 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:53:57 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270153.UAA13442@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:31:48 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack

> Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:
> 

[several original examples deleted]

 -  some sort of legal protection and recognition for the remailer
    operators

 -  some mechanism for them to operate as a business entity with a
    clear profit.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 26 18:56:37 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:56:37 +0800
Subject: In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:09 pm -0400 on 9/26/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> We believe that passage of SAFE
> with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
> provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
> policy reform.

And *I* "believe" that anyone who would spout such dreck, evidently out of
both sides of his mouth, is an ironclad fuckwit, no matter his talent for
such copralalic oral gymnastics.

I also "believe" that the combination of words like "Center",  and
"Democracy", and "Technology" in any *sentence*, much less in an
organization's name, is a three-dimensional oxymoron, especially in this
day and age, and particularly on issues like cryptography and digital
commerce.

You folks at CDT have proven, time and time again, to be comically, if not
criminally, negligent in the defense of freedom, and, worse, :-),
economics, which, fortunately, can take care of itself without any "help"
from "Centers" for "Democracy" and Technology like yours, thank you very
much.


Paradoxically, fools like you *are* helpful, but not in the grandiose way
you imagine. You are the crypto equivalents of Lenin's "useful idiots".
That is, you'll keep the dance band on the Titanic playing "Nearer My God
to Thee" in the bar while the rest of us with any sense are making for the
lifeboats. There's more room that way, so it's nice of you to oblige, and
all...


Better yet, you guys are like courtiers in Madrid, knifing each other in
back alleys and sleeping with each other's wives while the rest of us are
out making something useful out of the new world's wilderness.


It seems to me the less you know about what we can do with cryptography,
particularly financial cryptography, the better off all of us probably are.
You keep winning your increasingly less relevant turf wars, and we'll keep
making the world safer from people like you. Sounds perfectly fair to me.

The way I understand it, it took Madrid a good 300 years before it realized
it never had control over the western hemisphere to begin with. Same with
London, now that I think about it, but it only took us in North America 200
years or so to get rid of statist empire-builders like you. Must be the
colder climate, or something.


So, I guess the rest of us, those who want to make money with cryptography,
had better get on with it, and get used to your antics as part of the
background noise. If we convert 200 years into internet dog-years, we have
another 30 years of your incessant nattering to live with. Fortunately,
it'll be annoying, but not fatal.


The old Californios had an expression. It went something like: "God is in
Heaven. The King is in Spain. The Governor is in Mexico City. And I,
mercifully, am right here, as far away as possible from all three."

Via Con Dios, Bunky. Stay out of those back alleys, and always keep your
sword nearby when fucking your neighbor's (or your supposed
"constituent's") wife.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 26 19:03:11 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:03:11 +0800
Subject: Technology center
In-Reply-To: <199709270035.RAA01323@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 



At 5:32 PM -0700 9/26/97, stuey wrote:
> >What I think they'll do is work on virus software.  They can write
>>something which will hack the crypto on your PC and make it weak.
>>If they want to wiretap some drug dealer, they get him to download
>>one of their programs somehow.  Maybe they've got a Java bug which
>>lets them hack files when he goes to a certain web page.  Or maybe
>>they get him to download some free demo of a game or interaction
>>service (hotchicks.com).  Whatever, the program actually looks for
>>PGP and other crypto software and hacks it.  Now the FBI can read
>>his stuff.
>
>What we have here is a technology race.  Assuming it is legal for a
>hypothetical government organization to pull a stunt like that, we merely
>build our own encryption software that is compatible with the current stuff,
>or failing that have an unreasonable amount of different publically
>available versions out there.

Well, paranoia can be useful at times, but this is ludicrous.

Will the Evil Virii be able to overwrite CD-ROM bits? (I use a CD-R to
backup my critical files, which a set of it stored elsewhere.)

If viruses are their main means of attack, I'll breathe easy.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 26 19:13:42 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:13:42 +0800
Subject: Now we know why they ban crypto...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 5:50 PM -0700 9/26/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS at INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
>From: "VitaminB"
>To: "DAILY DOSE"
>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:17:40 -0700
>Subject: <>(September 26, 1997) Le Brain Drain
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>
>
>Vitamin B:
>Your Daily Dose of Bionomics


The problem is calling this "Bionomics."

It's just _economics_, not some cultish fad. Bionomics is just a hypish
name designed to sell books and seminars.

It's as if L. Ron Hubbard read Hayek and announced to Heinlein that he bet
he could found an entire religion around the concept of a free market.

"Vitamin B" indeed!

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From sandfort at crl.com  Sat Sep 27 10:33:48 1997
From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PARTY!
Message-ID: 



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Like Barbie says, "Math is hard!"  Below, is an invitation to my
next and best costume party of all time.  It even has the correct
date and everything.  Do come if you can.  It will be a doozie.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                     AREA 51+ PARTY
                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

             The Pleasure of Your Company
            is Cordially Requested at the:

                    Third Occasional
                   Anarcho-Dilettante
              Pick-Your-Own-Damned-There,
             Masquerade Ball, Talent Show
                And Halloween Rehearsal

7:00pm Saturday October 18--3:00am Sunday October 19

             650 Kenwyn Road (at McKinley)
                  Oakland, California

        Loads of things happened on October 18.
       We're not going to tell you which one to
    commemorate.  That's up to you.  Check out the
 birthdays and historical events listed below.  Pick
      one or go with something else.  Your call.

      But no matter what theme you pick, it IS a
      masquerade ball, so you MUST wear a costume
         (or at least a mask).  NO EXCEPTIONS.

       (Please, adults only.  We regret that our
        house is very unsuitable for children.)

                   THE ENTERTAINMENT

  At 8:00pm there will be a Dance Recital featuring
         Rainbeau, Gracie, Tish and Blythe.  
           You DO NOT want to miss this.

     At 9:00pm there will be a Guest Talent Show.
    If you can sing, dance, tell a joke or pull a
    rabbit out of a hat, we IMPLORE you to sign up
    for this featured event.  There will be prizes!

                    CALL FOR TAPES

    If you did not like the music at the previous 
      parties, we encourage you to bring a tape. 
         We will play them for thirty minutes 
        or until those actually dancing revolt. 
              The default music will be 
       Digital Music Express Dance Music Channel 
        (or 70's disco by dance floor request).

                      DOOR PRIZES

      Around Midnight, there will be a drawing for
          valuable and/or unique Door Prizes.
             (You must be present to win.)

                      COMESTIBLES

        There will be some snacks and soft drinks, 
        but if you are really hungry, it might be 
           a good idea to eat before you come.

                        B.Y.O.B.

      (Smoke'em if ya got'em, but outside, please.
          the house is a smoke-free zone.)

                         RSVP

     Whether or not you are planning to attend, 
  we want to hear from you.  Please give the hosts 
 a call so we can plan on your presence OR absence.

   Invited guests may bring additional celebrants
  WITH PRIOR PERMISSION OF THE HOSTS.  This means
  you must call a host and get permission for EACH
 of the people you intend to bring.  The house is
big, but it is possible to have too many attendees.

                      YOUR HOSTS

       Head Anarchist in Charge, Sandy Sandfort
            510-839-3441/sandfort at crl.com

      House Hosts with the Most, Gracie & Zarkov
              510-832-2044/emyrt at aol.com

    Web page host Sameer Parekh and C2Net Software
              510-547-3617/sameer at c2.net

    P.S.  THERE WILL BE A LATE FEE OF 10 CENTS PER 
    MINUTE FOR EACH MINUTE YOU ARRIVE AFTER 8:00PM.  
 The party starts at 7:00, so you get an our for free.  
        Late fees will be used to defray costs.  
         (This is no joke.  More than $100 was 
      collected at each of the last two parties.)

   Pictures from the 2nd Occasional Masquerade Ball 
                    may be found at:

           http://www.c2.net/~sandy/web.htm


OCTOBER 18 IN HISTORY

This is "Any Way You Look at It" Day! 

On this day in 1961, Henri Matisse's painting, "Le Bateau" 
went on display in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City.  
For six days, nobody realized it was hanging upside down.

1842 - Samuel Finley Breese Morse, laid his first telegraph 
cable in New York Harbor between the Battery and Governor's 
Island.

1892 - The first long-distance telephone communication was 
established between the mayors of New York and Chicago.

1924 - The term "Four Horsemen" was used in a "New York Herald 
Tribune" article by columnist Grantland Rice.  The referenced 
Four Horsemen were the backfield of the University of Notre Dame 
which had beaten Army, 13-7. 

1935 - Victor record #25236 was recorded this day by Tommy Dorsey 
and his Orchestra. It would become one of the most familiar Big 
Band themes of all time: "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You". 

1943 - The first broadcast of "Perry Mason" was presented on CBS 
Radio. In the 15-minute (Monday-Friday) shows, Perry was played by 
Barlett Robinson, Santos Ortega, Donald Briggs and John Larkin. 
Larkin played the role the longest and was reportedly very 
disappointed when Raymond Burr got the gig on TV (1957). 

1944 - The epic book, "Forever Amber", was published.  This 
historic-romance novel was written by Kathleen Windsor. Although 
the book was very popular among women between the ages of 12 and 
24, it was considered scandalous to be seen reading it; a reaction 
that lasted at least another three decades. 

1956 - Football commissioner Bert Bell turned thumbs down on the 
use of radio-equipped helmets by NFL quarterbacks.  

1971 - The final issue of "Look" magazine was published. It had 
been a must-see publication every week for 34 years. 

1977 - Reggie Jackson made history and earned the nickname, 
Mr. October.  Regg-a-roo (as Howard Cosell called him) hit three 
home runs on three successive pitches leading the Yankees to an
8-4 thrashing of the LA Dodgers in Game 6 of the World Series. 

1979 - Following extensive renovation to return Radio City Music 
Hall to the look and feel of its 1931 Art Deco glory, the 
venerable New York City theatre reopened. "Snow White and the 
Seven Dwarfs" was the first live presentation. 

1983 - Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton received some gold to add 
to their collections --for their smash, "Islands in the Stream". 


OCTOBER 18 BIRTHDAYS

1854 - Salomon Andree (explorer: ill-fated North Pole expedition) 

1859 - Henri Bergson (Nobel prize-winning philosopher, author: 
Creative Evolution) 

1898 - Lotte Lenya (Karoline Blamauer) (Tony Award-winning singer, 
actress: Threepenny Opera; From Russia with Love, Semi-Tough, 
Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone) 

1902 - Miriam Hopkins (actress: The Children's Hour, The Chase, 
Carrie, Barbary Coast) 

1906 - James Brooks (artist: Flight: 235 ft. mural at La Guardia 
National Airport, NY; abstract expressionist exhibit: Ninth Street 
Exhibition) 

1918 - Bobby Troup (actor: Emergency; singer, musician, TV host: 
Stars of Jazz; married to singer, Julie London) 

1919 - Pierre Elliott Trudeau (Prime Minister of Canada)

1925 - Melina Mercouri (actress: Never on Sunday, Once is Not 
Enough, Topkapi; Greece's Minister of Culture) 

1926 - Chuck (Charles Edward Anderson) Berry (singer: Lifetime 
Achievement Grammy; Maybellene, Roll Over Beethoven, School Day, 
Rock & Roll Music, Sweet Little Sixteen, Johnny B. Goode, My 
Ding-A-Ling; in film: Rock, Rock, Rock) 

1927 - George C. Scott (Academy Award-winning actor: Patton; 
Anatomy of a Murder, The Day of the Dolphin, The Hanging Tree, 
Taps, Oklahoma Crude, The Prince and the Pauper, The Murders in 
the Rue Morgue, Malice) 

1928 - Keith Jackson (sportscaster: ABC Sports, Wide World of 
Sports) 

1933 - Peter Boyle (Emmy Award-winning actor: The X-Files; Taxi 
Driver, While You were Sleeping, Young Frankenstein, Midnight 
Caller, From Here to Eternity [TV]) 

1933 - Forrest Gregg (Pro Football Hall of Famer: Green Bay 
Packers offensive tackle: Super Bowl I, II; Dallas Cowboys: Super 
Bowl VI; head coach: Cleveland Browns, Cincinnati Bengals: AFC 
Coach of the Year [1981]: Super Bowl XVI; Green Bay Packers; 
Southern Methodist University Athletic Director) 

1934 - Inger Stevens (Stensland) (actress: The Farmer's Daughter, 
Madigan, A Guide for the Married Man, Hang 'Em High) 

1937 - Boyd Dowler (football: Green Bay Packers wide receiver: 
Super Bowl I, II) 

1939 - Mike Ditka (Pro & College Football Hall of Famer: Chicago 
Bears Rookie of the Year; Philadelphia Eagles; Dallas Cowboys 
tight end: Super Bowl V, VI; Chicago Bears head coach:  Super Bowl 
XX; TV sports analyst: NBC Sports) 

1943 - Willie Horton (baseball: Detroit Tigers outfielder) 

1947 - Laura Nyro (singer: Up on the Roof; songwriter: Wedding 
Bell Blues, Blowin' Away, And When I Die, Stoney End, Stoned Soul 
Picnic, Sweet Blindness, Eli's Coming, Time and Love, Save the
Country) 

1950 - Wendy Wasserstein (writer: The Heidi Chronicles, Bachelor 
Girls) 

1951 - Pam Dawber (actress: Mork & Mindy, My Sister Sam) 

1952 - Jerry Royster (baseball: LA Dodgers pitcher) 

1960 - Jean Claude Van Damme (actor: Kickboxer, Universal Soldier, 
Double Impact, Hard Target, Nowhere to Run, Predator II) 

1961 - Erin Moran (actress: Happy Days, Joanie Loves Chachi, The 
Don Rickles Show, Daktari, Galaxy of Terror, Twirl, Watermelon 
Man, How Sweet It Is!) 

1961 - Wynton Marsalis (Grammy Award-winning musician: jazz/
classical trumpet:  Think of One [1983]; played on: Father & Sons; 
in orchestra: Sweeney Todd; composer: TV theme song for Shannon's 
Deal) 


OCTOBER 18 CHART TOPPERS

1957 
Chances Are/The Twelfth of Never - Johnny Mathis 

Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley 

Be-Bop Baby/Have I Told You Lately That I Love You - Ricky Nelson 

Wake Up Little Susie - The Everly Brothers 


1965 
Yesterday - The Beatles 

Treat Her Right - Roy Head 

You've Got Your Troubles - The Fortunes 

Behind the Tear - Sonny James 

1973 
Half-Breed - Cher 

Ramblin' Man - The Allman Brothers Band 

Angie - The Rolling Stones 

Ridin' My Thumb to Mexico - Johnny Rodriguez 

1981 
Arthur's Theme (Best that You Can Do) - Christopher Cross 

For Your Eyes Only - Sheena Easton 

Private Eyes - Daryl Hall and John Oates 

Step by Step - Eddie Rabbitt 


THIRD SATURDAY IN OCTOBER

Sweetest Day

Frabjous Day

Ironman Triathalon


MISC.

Persons Day (Canada)

St. Luke's Day (patron of doctors, painters, glassmakers, artists, 
butchers, notaries,
sculptors)

Festival of Poetic Terrorism

Alaska Day

Pandrosos (Greek all-refreshing Goddess)

Great Horn Fair (Kent, UK)

National Chocolate Cupcake Day

Chile Independence Day

No Beard Day

Lukesmas

International Credit Union Day 

Ivory Soap invented

1st Art school opened

Sandblasting patented

BBC Radio established (1922)

H.E.W. banned cyclamates

Brotherhood of the Cooperative Commonwealth founded (1895)

Puerto Rico became US Colony (1898)

Lincoln shaved off his beard

Hi and Lois comic strip began (1954)

Water Pollution Control Act passed (1972)

XYZ Affair

Citroen 2CV automobile introduced (1948)

Roseanne debuted (1988)

1st War Crimes trial began (1945)

Disney's Jungle Book premiered

John Lennon and Yoko Ono arrested for marijuana possession 
(London; 1968)

Rules of American Football 1st formulated (1873)

US attacked Iranian oil rig in retaliation for gunboat attacks 
(1987)

International Court of Justice at the Hague announced (1907)

UK declared Canadian women to be "persons" (1929)
 
Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes forcing many protestants 
(aka Huguenots) to flee France (1685)

Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculed in the press for inviting black 
leader Booker T. Washington to the White House (1901)





From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 19:39:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:39:55 +0800
Subject: Remailer latency (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270211.VAA13713@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:42:45 -0400
> From: Joey Grasty 
> Subject: Re: Remailer latency

> At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
> >really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.
> 
> Sure.  Send me $125 a month for a dedicated line, and I'll insure
> that you get low latencies on winsock.

Malarky.

Some basic issues regarding the physical infrastructure (YMMV):


 -  since the lines are answered by modem and not voice AND they are
    not answered as the business you can use residential lines which
    means a much lower cost of operation.


 -  assuming 1 in-dial and 1 out-dial (needed for maximum throughput
    and minimum latency) you only need long-distance on the dial-out.


 -  the pricing on the move of my 4 POTS broke down thus:

     Line #            Install $         Monthly $     Function

       1                 38.35            16.63        dial-in, no ld
       2                 30.95            16.63        dial-in, no ld
       3                 16.35            16.63        dial-in, no ld
       4                 16.35            30.08        voice w/ ld,
                                                       call notes,
                                                       caller id


 -  the pricing on my other aspects are:

     ISDN                0.00 w/ 2 yr.    80.00       main link to
                         contract                     provider

     Electrcity                           12.00       per machine

     Modem               200.00                       per line

     ISP                 0.00 w/ 2 yr.    400.00      backup DNS,
                         contract                     4-day mail cache,
                                                      admin account,
                                                      usenet server access,
                                                      full C-class,
                                                      backup dial-in,
                                                      their ISDN costs


 -  you should also arrange legal and financial support


Maybe that will give you a Ctl. Texas base-line for estimating what it would
take to do the job. I should have an estimate for T1 pricing and setups in a
couple of weeks, say something and I'll post the current status.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 26 19:45:36 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:45:36 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709270153.UAA13442@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



At 6:53 PM -0700 9/26/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:31:48 -0700
>> From: Tim May 
>> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack
>
>> Generally, a bunch of things would be nice to have:
>>
>
>[several original examples deleted]
>
> -  some sort of legal protection and recognition for the remailer
>    operators

I believe remailers are strongly protected by the Electronic Communcations
Privacy Act, which explicitly says that reconveyors or intermediary parties
may not examine or inspect e-mail.  Anyone expecting that a remailer is
looking at mail flowing through his system for evidence of libel,
espionage, obscenity, threats, etc., must be unaware that the ECPA formally
forbids this, except under limited circumstances (e.g., a business may look
at mail of employees, and prior arrangements/releases can be made. Neither
of these situations require, let alone approve, inspection of mail in
transit).

This line of reasoning has not been used in any defense, perhaps because
there have been no prosecutions of remailers. Whether the courts, including
The Court, will conclude that the ECPA is protection, is of course unknown
to me.

> -  some mechanism for them to operate as a business entity with a
>    clear profit.

And I mentioned this specifically.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 19:55:54 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:55:54 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Dimitri, please forward your original message complaining about being
misquoted in my Netly article. I don't remember such a thing. Of course you
were whining in general back then, but that's hardly surprising.

I've never styled myself as a "freedom fighter." I do support property
rights, and the right to do what you want with your own computer is
certainly one of those.

Feel free to read f-c. The archives are publicly available on the web, and
have been for years.

Unless Vulis says something interesting, this will be my last response to
him. Sometimes it's not worth it to dignify a post with a reply.

-Declan


At 19:07 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Declan McCullagh  writes:
>
>> At 11:17 -0400 9/26/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> >Declan forged quotes from me in his nutly news piece about Gilmore pulling
>> >my plug.
>>
>> Oh, really? First time I've heard this line from Vulis.
>
>This is a lie.  I pointed out the forgery right after Declan posted his
>netly news piece on this mailing list.  You may recall that Declan was
>one of the few people openly supportive of Gilmore's censorship - both
>in his mailing list traffic and editorializing in his netly news piece.
>
>The only reason why I mentioned Declan's forgery again is because I saw
>Declan's lack of accuracy and disregard for the truth being discussed
>again, by CDT.  I don't know why he worked up his panties in such a knot.
>
>Declan's been trying to picture himself as a "freedom fighter" of sorts
>on this forum. Well, the truth is that he supported Gilmore's censorship
>and more recently didn't allow me to read his mailing list, aptly
>named "fight-censorship".



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From frantz at netcom.com  Fri Sep 26 19:57:00 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:57:00 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 8:54 PM -0700 9/25/97, David HM Spector wrote:
>Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
>government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
>mistakes if any are made, McDonald said.
>
>"Based on a theory of potential government abuse, important tools
>commonly used are to be restricted or embargoed," McDonald said.

It's not just a theory.  It's the history of abuse.  And remember, the taps
were used to get blackmail material on members of congress, control their
votes, and make J. Edgar Hoover director for life.  That's why we can't
trust the elected government.




- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQB1AwUBNCxz7NQgMXPCzT+1AQFchgL+OI8NeCB76D7zQj1wl6MXd9DCipvYk1Nc
invpNX743Wex/sWZ1h8E36G1tni01WLFw0y+IwFAip1rr6rMzUayy+0AL/PfQaIg
40ojdJp5V0O1eMApbDQ/lrArB5Kb2E4E
=qK/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From bd1011 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 26 20:17:22 1997
From: bd1011 at hotmail.com (Nobuki Nakatuji)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:17:22 +0800
Subject: MISTY algorithm
Message-ID: <19970927030020.9849.qmail@hotmail.com>




Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com






From mycroft at actrix.gen.nz  Fri Sep 26 20:27:01 1997
From: mycroft at actrix.gen.nz (Paul Foley)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:27:01 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah! FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F2F@tceis5.indy.tce.com>
Message-ID: 



Fisher Mark  writes:

> Alas (according to my failing memory) it was legislator from my home
> state of Indiana during the early part of this century, who had planned
> to make a killing in textbooks if Pi == 3.0 was accepted.  Fortunately
> he was called on it when it went before the whole legislature.

It was pi == 4.0, not 3.0, and was in fact enacted by the General
Assembly of Indiana in 1897.  Don't know when it was repealed.

-- 
Paul Foley   ---   PGP-encrypted mail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8






From cynthb at sonetis.com  Fri Sep 26 20:36:49 1997
From: cynthb at sonetis.com (Cynthia Brown)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:36:49 +0800
Subject: We're in BIG trouble now! / Re: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199709262215.AAA08524@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Igor (posting anonymously) supposedly wrote:

>   Shit!
>   The Graham-John Bullers autobot has learned how to think in a
> rudimentary fashion that allows it to respond to posts in a manner 
> that comes close to imitating rational thought. 
>   How long, I ask you, until it decides to run for President? 

As long as it takes for anyone that hasn't killfiled it to send ten votes
back to . 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb at iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.











From rennie at one.net.au  Fri Sep 26 20:38:22 1997
From: rennie at one.net.au (jason)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:38:22 +0800
Subject: Future reading ??
Message-ID: <342C7BD7.AB1DDE6E@one.net.au>



Hi all,

can anybody suggest any good books on cryptanalysis (or papers etc).
I've read most of Applied Cryptography. What would be a good next step,
reading wise ??

Thanks

Jason






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 20:38:26 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:38:26 +0800
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=347867&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709270339.WAA14254@einstein.ssz.com>



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   [INLINE] September 27, 1997 3:22 am GMT
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   Reuters
   26-SEP-97
   
   
   HAMBURG, Germany, Sept 26 (Reuter) - The German unit of the world's
   largest online service, America Online, said on Friday it planned to
   boost advertising revenues and that its parent company may begin
   including ads on private electronic mail.
   
   ``We are optimistic that we will make a leap forward with our
   advertising,'' said AOL Germany spokesman Ingo Reese in a telephone
   interview with Reuters.
   
   ``We waited until we reached the critical mass of 400,000 users,''
   Reese said. ``Now we are opening ourselves up to the advertising
   business.''
   
   He said the company expected robust growth from the new ad strategy
   and added AOL had considered several possibilities for increasing
   revenues including placing advertisements in the form of graphics on
   e-mail between users.
   
   ``That is one of the most attractive venues for the advertising
   industry,'' Reese said, adding that 40 percent of AOL customers in the
   U.S. use it because of its e-mail capability.
   
   Reese said AOL had received positive feedback from media that carry
   ads and ad agencies on a presentation tour through several German
   cities with its U.S. marketing manager Myer Berlow, which ended on
   Thursday.
   
   He said the U.S. parent company receives 16 percent of its $2 billion
   in annual turnover from ads.
   
   AOL does not have any plans for major print or television campaigns
   for the online service, Reese said.
   
   ``We want to build up our own advertising business first,'' he said.
   
   AOL in Germany is a joint venture of American Online and the media
   company Bertelsmann . It recently took over its rival CompuServe,
   which it says will make it one of the largest Internet service
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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 20:48:18 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:48:18 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270349.WAA14570@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:32:14 -0600
> From: A Player To Be Named Later 
> Subject: Re: Remailer latencies

> And, since you asked, would it not be in the interests of remailer
> operators to have a script which would generate random text, encrypt
> it to various remailers and send it out as 'cover traffic'?
> It would seem to me that this would be particularly valuable for the
> remailers that receive the least amount of traffic.

This aspect of traffic cover is more complex than it at first seems. Take
for example the second simplest model that I am aware of. For each email
that comes in n bogus emails go out with one remailed copy. So for each
email we receive we end up processing n+2 emails. Since to be useful n must
be reasonably larger than 2 to be effective we are left with a quandry. As
we process more traffic (ie become successful) we find our bandwidth need
growing at a linear rate of n, unfortunately the skills and resources to
support this increase also get larger as we become more successful.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 20:48:55 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:48:55 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709270356.WAA14725@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:17:11 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)

> > -  some sort of legal protection and recognition for the remailer
> >    operators
> 
> I believe remailers are strongly protected by the Electronic Communcations
> Privacy Act, which explicitly says that reconveyors or intermediary parties

[deleted description]

> This line of reasoning has not been used in any defense, perhaps because
> there have been no prosecutions of remailers. Whether the courts, including
> The Court, will conclude that the ECPA is protection, is of course unknown
> to me.

But that is the exact point I'm making - it hasn't been tested. Before
anyone with a lick of sense is going to jump into the remailer business
big-time somebody is going to have to put their neck on the block and set
the liability standard.

> > -  some mechanism for them to operate as a business entity with a
> >    clear profit.
> 
> And I mentioned this specifically.

I'll grant you mentioned digital postage. This simply is not robust enough
to handle the world of a commercial remailer operator. We'll just have to
agree to disagree here because the standard digital postage argument simply
doesn't sway me to support it.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 26 20:50:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:50:07 +0800
Subject: MISTY algorithm
In-Reply-To: <19970927030020.9849.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:00 PM -0700 9/26/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
>If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.
>

I thought we got rid of your sorry ass two weeks ago!

Go back to trying to arrange "male penpals," which Dejanews shows to be
your activity on the Net prior to this recent playing of Misty.

You go, chop chop.


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cpunks at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 20:55:19 1997
From: cpunks at ssz.com (CDR Filter Account)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:55:19 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709270142.UAA12412@einstein.ssz.com>








From brianbr at together.net  Fri Sep 26 21:22:49 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:22:49 +0800
Subject: The CipherSaber Manifesto
Message-ID: <199709252040.QAA11837@mx01.together.net>



On 9/24/97 8:42 PM, Antonomasia (ant at notatla.demon.co.uk)  passed this 
wisdom:

>reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold Reinhold) wrote:
>
>> CipherSaber-1 (CS1) uses Ron Rivest's RC4 algorithm as published in
>> the second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography. ....
>
>> CipherSaber-1 is a symmetric-key file encryption system. Messaging
>> takes place by attaching binary files to e-mail. Because CipherSaber
>> uses a stream cipher, an initialization vector must be used to prevent
>> the same cipher key from being used twice. In encrypted CipherSaber-1
>> files, a ten byte initialization vector precedes the coded data. For
>> decryption, the initialization vector is read from the file and
>> appended to the user key before the key setup step.  ......
>
>Why not _prepend_ the IV to the key ?  As described here any
>paranoics who use keys > 255 chars won't get the IV in place, and
>will lose out.  I think I'd also force 4 bytes of the IV to be the
>current time, as a defence against the (P?)RNG getting me a repeated IV
>eventually.

  ... same thing occurred to me though its easy enough to test the key 
length and the truncate it at 246 issuing a warning to the user ...



Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  

 "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining     
  armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological        
  chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling      
  second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place.       
			-- Douglas Adams, on Windows '95   	       







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 27 12:28:53 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:28:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: cypherpunks-e@htp.org list explodes!
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927122704.00705244@popd.ix.netcom.com>


Well, I tried subscribing to cypherpunks-e at htp.org, the English-language
relative of cypherpunks-j.  There may have been one or two independent
postings,
but almost everything there was just the main cypherpunks list, forwarded
and with archiving numbers stuck in the Subject: line.
That wasn't a very good idea; people who want to subscribe to cypherpunks
should do so directly, but if you do want to build a fourth list address
for cypherpunks, you can check with Igor Chudov and Lance Cottrell about
the software
that makes it work without looping.

However, a day or two ago, something broke, and most of the 1400+ messages
I've
gotten have been Mailer-Daemon complaints about not being able to reach
somewhere or other for four hours.  It may be because ssz.com was down for a
couple of days, or may be from something else, but it's failed spectacularly.
Killfiles are your friend, but for now I've simply unsubscribed.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From harka at nycmetro.com  Fri Sep 26 21:51:29 1997
From: harka at nycmetro.com (Harka)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:51:29 +0800
Subject: AOL
In-Reply-To: <30819@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <19970927004142.57754@nycmetro.com>



On Fri, Sep 26, 1997 at 11:57:36PM -0500, ravage at ssz.com wrote:
>    
>                     AOL MAY INTRODUCE ADS ON PRIVATE E-MAIL
>                                        
>    Reuters
>    26-SEP-97
>    
>    
>    HAMBURG, Germany, Sept 26 (Reuter) - The German unit of the world's
>    largest online service, America Online, said on Friday it planned to
>    boost advertising revenues and that its parent company may begin
>    including ads on private electronic mail.


A PGP-Plug-In for the AOL-software would be excellent...

Ciao

Harka






From anon at anon.efga.org  Fri Sep 26 22:08:41 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:08:41 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: 




That vile salamander Gingrich, squeaker of the
House, is slobbering about a drug-free America
by the year 2001. What a dreary prospect! Of
course this does not include alcohol and tobacco,
of which the consumption will soar. How can a
drug-free state be achieved? Simple. An operation
can remove the drug receptors from the brain.
Those who refuse the operation will be deprived
of all rights.


CM







From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 26 22:12:16 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:12:16 +0800
Subject: FCC Proposes V-Chip Requirements for TV Manufacturers
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926112044.00729ff8@popd.ix.netcom.com>



The FCC yesterday proposed rules that would give television manufacturers
until
July 1 1998 to put V-Chips in half of new TV sets with monitors 13 inches
or larger,
and in all sets by July 1, 1999.  Reed Hundt said that this will
"ensure that V-Chip technology does in fact exist in a relatively short
period of time".
Industry officials protested that the time limit is way too short for
manufacturers,
saying they need 18 months - 2 years.  Comment period runs until November.

Meanwhile, some of the major TV networks are going to a more detailed
rating system,
Sex/Violence/Language/SuggestiveDialog, with a FantasyViolence category for
kids' shows.
NBC is resisting that.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 22:14:19 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:14:19 +0800
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=347667&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709270340.WAA14313@einstein.ssz.com>



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   [INLINE] September 27, 1997 3:21 am GMT
   [INLINE]
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                          MOVING MONEY IN CYBERSPACE
                                       
   NewsBytes
   26-SEP-97
   
   
   SINGAPORE, 1997 SEP 26 (Newsbytes) -- By Kenneth Kway. When it comes
   to conducting monetary transactions on the Internet, the world can
   only move as fast as its financial institutions. Banks in particular
   have an important role to play in the acceptance of the Internet as a
   legitimate medium in which secure business transactions can be
   performed.
   
   But even banks in well-connected Singapore have been cautious in
   embracing the Internet for their business while being clearly
   interested in tapping in on an increasing number of Internet users in
   Singapore and the region. The Development Bank of Singapore (DBS) is
   one of the first to make Internet banking a reality.
   
   DBS hopes to revolutionize Singapore's local banking industry by
   giving customers the convenience of banking through the Internet at
   any time they choose and from anywhere they happen to be. "We expect
   other banks will soon be unveiling similar programs but we are the one
   of the first to bring this service to our customers," said Lau Chan
   Sin, DBS deputy president.
   
   "We want this project to contribute to the creation of an IT culture
   where customers can experience the ease and convenience of banking on
   the Web," said Lau.
   
   The trial involving a select group of DBS customers and staff will
   last until October, when the system will go live. They will have
   online access to detailed information regarding their results. Among
   other things, they will be able to obtain real time information about
   their accounts, track cheque status, transfer funds and effect payment
   of bills.
   
   "For now, it is unlikely that Internet banking will move into areas
   that are not already covered by phone banking," says Datapro analyst
   Lim Soo Ching. "As it is, banks are trying to work out a business
   proposition for phone banking. Online banking would face the same
   concerns."
   
   The bank's home page, users' first point of access, will deliver
   banking news to the customer. The bank has gone one step further and
   allowed users to customize the kind of news they want to receive. Each
   time they check the area on the DBS home page labelled "Your Personal
   News" they will be presented with the personalized bulletin that is
   relevant to their needs and banking habits.
   
   The bank has put in place a slew of industry standard security
   measures like firewalls and authentication services. These measures
   are supplemented by a proprietary security solution. The emphasis is
   on confidentiality of the transaction as much as protecting against
   unauthorized access.
   
   "Looking at the technology the bank has out in place, security is not
   a problem," says Lim. "Banking may be actually safer than phone
   banking, but the user perception is just the opposite." The bank
   stresses the importance of user cooperation to maintain a high level
   of security. "The customer has to work hand in hand with the security
   systems that the bank has put in place," said Mrs Elsie Foh, executive
   vice president of retail banking at DBS. "For instance they should
   remember to log off from the system once they have completed their
   banking session.
   
   The bank was not at liberty to reveal the equipment and software used
   in the project but it was disclosed that the entire setup cost S$2
   million. Aside from an initial sign-up fee, the bank intends to charge
   users a monthly fee for the program after the initial 6-month
   promotion period.
   
   DBS will add to the initial services offered through the Bank's
   Internet Banking service. "We met with great success bringing our
   customers the convenience of share application and COE (Certificate of
   Entitlement) bids through ATMs," said Foh. "Similarly, we intend to
   broaden the scope of our Internet services to include more diverse
   types of commercial applications."
   
   Investment related transactions, insurance purchase and third party
   funds transfer are just some of the areas being explored for future
   implementation. In this way, the banks hope to build greater value on
   the new service and attract a high user base. DBS expects 30 000
   customers in the first year of the system's operation and projects
   that the number will climb to 150000 in 3 years.
   
   "Culture will also make a difference," says Lim. "Asia tends to take
   longer than the West in the acceptance of new technology." He cites
   automated teller machines (ATMs) as one such example. "It will be some
   time before online banking becomes the norm."
   
   DBS is looking into providing all its users with personal financial
   manager software such as Intuit or Quicken. This would allow customers
   to better coordinate their personal finances with the bank. Such a
   package will most likely be customized to work with the bank's system.
   "The significance of this technology is that any computer in the world
   that can access the Internet is instantly a transaction terminal that
   can be used to do banking." said Lim.
   
   
   
   (Reported by Newsbytes News Network http://www.newsbytes.com)
   
   
   
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From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 26 22:14:59 1997
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:14:59 +0800
Subject: Charles Platt on wiretaps, government abuse of power
Message-ID: 



[Charles is an author, a Wired contributor, and a friend. --Declan]

------

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:28:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt 

On 26 Sep 1997, Nathaniel Daw wrote:

> >    Indeed, state and local law enforcement authorities account for
> > 50% of all the electronic surveillance court orders in the United
> > States.
>
> Does anyone else find this statistic profoundly shocking, and for
> reasons opposite from Herr Freeh's intent? 50% of surveillance court
> orders come from the Feds?

When I visited EPIC in DC I was told (reliably, I think) that wiretaps are
not in fact a widely used technique in federal law enforcement--at least,
not wiretaps that are done via correct legal procedure, with a court
order.

Subsequently I spoke to a friend whose father is an officer in Indiana
state police; and he was of the opinion that "unofficial" wiretaps at the
local level are relatively common as a means of confirming police
suspicions prior to a fullscale investigation to obtain evidence
admissible in court. (Obviously an illegal wiretap is not admissible.)

Of course this is anecdotal, but it looks to me as if the real use for
wiretaps--in today's society, at least--is as an informal timesaver. Tap
someone's phone for a few days, see if there's anything interesting, and
if there is, THEN pursue a formal investigation.

Of course, Freeh may have ambitions extending far beyond this relatively
trivial, low-level stuff. Even if he didn't, though, you could see that
law enforcement would feel pissed about being deprived (potentially) of a
convenient labor-saving tool. Since it costs Freeh nothing to agitate in
favor of Total Access, why not give it a try? Demand something
unreasonable, then settle for whatever he can get.

As for the Constitution ... this of course is merely an archaic concept
to which officials pay occasional lip service, like lapsed Catholics who
still take communion once in a while, just to keep up appearances.

The one positive aspect of all this is that officials and appointees are
exposing themselves--proudly, without apology--as the unprincipled,
corrupt opportunists we always suspected they were. As the radical British
Member of Parliament Ken Livingstone once remarked (in a public speech):
"When you get into politics, you find that all your worst nightmares about
it turn out to be true, and the people who are attracted to large
concentrations of power are precisely the ones who should be kept as far
away from it as possible."

------------------------------------------------------------------------







From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 26 22:16:02 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:16:02 +0800
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199709270342.WAA14475@einstein.ssz.com>



   CNN logo 
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                         'SPAM' SLAMMING GOES TO COURT
                                       
      Internet spam September 26, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:59 p.m. EDT (0259 GMT)
     
     DEARBORN, Michigan (CNN) -- One of the world's largest Internet
     service providers is squaring off against one of its largest
     purveyors of junk e-mail, known unaffectionately by netizens as
     "spam."
     
     Apex Global Internet Services, or AGIS, the third largest Internet
     service provider in the world, has dropped so-called "spammers" from
     its service, including the biggest spammer of them all, Cyber
     Promotions, owned by Sanford Wallace.
     
     Now, Cyber Promotions and Wallace are fighting back, having filed a
     lawsuit against AGIS alleging breach of contract.
     
     "I'm very proud of what I do, and I don't really think that spamming
     is bad or good," said Wallace. "I think it's just a way of doing
     business."
     
     Spam is the electronic equivalent of junk mail, unsolicited messages
     hawking all sorts of products and services. http://www.agis.net/ 
     
     AGIS officials say they were forced to take action because they were
     caught in the middle of the ongoing Internet tug-of-war between
     spammers and angry recipients who had launched high-tech
     counterattacks against spam.
     
     "We asked the anti-spammers to give us a chance, and we asked the
     spammers to stop sending unsolicited e-mail to people who said they
     didn't want it," said Phillip Lawlor, chief executive officer of
     AGIS. "The problem was that really didn't make anybody happy."
     
     "Both sides then resorted to unethical and illegal practices in
     order to take down the other side's networks."
     
     There is some precedent for AGIS's actions against junk e-mail.
     Earlier this year, America Online successfully sued to stop Cyber
     Promotions from sending unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers.
     
     However, AOL is a private network, not an Internet service provider.
     The suit between Wallace and AGIS, then, could help determine how
     far such providers can go in trying to can spam from the entire
     Internet.
     
     A federal judge is expected to rule on the suit against AGIS on
     Monday.
     
     CNN's Ed Garsten contributed to this report. 
     
    
   rule
   
  Related story:
  
     * Agis dethrones 'Spam King' - September 24, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * AGIS
     * Compuserve Inc. v. cyber Promotions Inc. 
     * America Online Inc. v. Cyber Promotions Inc. 
       
     
     
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From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 26 22:22:36 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:22:36 +0800
Subject: Its working read this, give it a chance
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970926095101.0069ca18@100.1.4.25>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926202913.006ab488@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 11:51 AM 09/26/1997 +0200, you wrote:
>Ouais c'est vieux comme le monde le principe: ca s'appelle une pyramide et
>il n'y a que le gars en haut qui se fait un sacre pactole. En plus c'est
>parfaitement illegal.

Bon jour!
You posted this to the cypherpunks mailing list.  We've seen SPAM before,
and this one is not new, except that perhaps you received it en Francais.
However, there are some cypherpunks-relevant issues:
1) Anonymity is easy.  Not only can you be the chief of this pyramid,
you can be some of the accomplices, and even some of the suckers 
generating cash flow to the accomplices so they can demonstrate
how great a system this is.  And nobody knows you're the dog.

2) Economics often determines activities, and the economics of the
margin are as important as the economics of the whole system.
Yes, the system is bad for everybody except the sellers of telephone wire,
but if anyone thinks they can locate suckers fast enough to take in more money
than they spend locating the suckers, and they have low enough ethics, 
some of them will try.  Since there are many people out there with low ethics
and a high estimate of the number of suckers, and since the costs
of communicating to a large number of people on the Internet is very low,
many of them will try, and some will succeed, and all of them will send you
junk mail.

>Hello suckers of *intofild at aol.com*,
>This nice principle of sending money to the last name on a list through
>the INTERNET is the ultimate variation of the pyramidal game...
...
>illegal in most industrial countries...

Illegal doesn't matter, only practical matters.
Lotteries also lose money, except for the people selling tickets,
but the government permits them when the government gets the money.
Pyramid scams are also a form of lottery, where it's easier to affect your
odds of being the winner or loser, depending on the number of suckers you know
and the extent to which you're a sucker yourself.

>					 The chief
>					   / | \
>				     a few accomplices
>					////||||\\\\
>				suckers sending their money

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 26 22:26:49 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:26:49 +0800
Subject: Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926204814.006f73b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



Go get yourself a copy of "Blows Against The Empire", a ~1970 album
by Paul Kantner, Jefferson Airplane, and friends;
there's a nice song about a couple who don't want their new baby to grow up
and get drafted.   "Maybe we just won't tell them about him...."

At 09:31 AM 09/26/1997 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>This may go against your religious wishes, but listing your children
>with SSNs of public figures may allow you to bypass the IRS computer
>that checks if the child has a valid SSN listed, without getting SSNs
>that 'belong to' your children.

Nope.  Putting false information in tax returns is far more illegal
than refusing to put desired information in them.  
If the government insists that they'll extort more money from you
if you fail to register your children as good little possessions of the state,
take it or leave it or talk to the ACLU or the National Taxpayers' Union.
You could refuse to pay, but I agree that refusing to pay extortion to
well-armed people who outnumber you is sometimes more trouble than paying,
and you may not want the hassle.  Another approach is checking out the various
tax havens and seeing if you can get yourself hired by some Anguillan
corporation
that covers your business expenses; some people I knew who were in college on
company-sponsored scholarships decided to be on extended business trips,
so the apartment and food and 7 cents per mile driving costs in the college
town
were unreimbursed business expenses -- there's a lot of interesting stuff
you can
pay accountants to help you with, and maybe you'll break even.
You could even become a Puerto Rican resident, though that's easier if you
speak 
Spanish, and maybe you're also on a long business trip away from your home
in PR.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep 26 22:27:12 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:27:12 +0800
Subject: Plea for help from IRS; Liberty?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926220425.00701df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 08:51 PM 09/25/1997 -0400, Decius 6i5 wrote:
>>   The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the Child
>>   Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
>>   government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
>>   children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
>>   with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.

Somebody out there got this confused idea that Clinton's a liberal and
started spreading it around; I've met liberals and he ain't one.
Remember the Clinton plan for immunizing children?  The alpha version
had the government take over all the vaccines, register all the kids, and 
vaccinate them.  The beta version had the government fund lots of money to
buy vaccines, register all the kids, and vaccinate poor kids.  A much later 
beta version had dropped most of the other features except registering all
the kids.

Now there's a new database for catching deadbeat parents that all employers
have to report all newly hired employees to in case they _might_ be
deadbeat parents,
including name, address, SSN, and contact information.  That means if I get
hired
as a W2 employee again, even though I've never had a kid and have no plans to,
I'll be in there.  Unless I refuse, and may employer has to pay the $25 fine.
(It's $500 if they conspire with the employee to not file...)
The newspaper reports sound like it'll be pretty easy to get information on
the
people in the database, and that about 60 million people get hired at jobs
each year.
Doesn't say anything about privacy act concerns...

Back to the UN Convention on Rights Of The Child...
A few years back, some of the UN employees in my Quaker meeting were
organizing to
have us help lobby our Congresscritters to get us to sign it, and our fine
SenatorCritter Bill Bradley was a big proponent.  We studied it quite a bit,
though I've forgotten much detail.  It has about 60 parts.  There are some
important 
things in it like governments agreeing not to draft kids younger than 16, a
nd not to execute kids, and other basic civil rights things they really
cared about.
We were all frustrated by some of the language - stuff like 
	"children have the right to freedom of religion,
	except when it interferes with the needs of social order" 
	"children have the right to freedom of speech, except when it ...."
It's also got some parts that are actively evil, in addition to parts that are
mostly pandering to governments that still want to control kids.
	- the right to registration for social insurance
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From phelix at vallnet.com  Fri Sep 26 22:38:41 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:38:41 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <342d981a.4321823@128.2.84.191>



On 26 Sep 1997 23:18:00 -0500, Jim Choate  wrote:

>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:17:11 -0700
>> From: Tim May 
>> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
>

[ stuff deleted]

>> And I mentioned this specifically.
>
>I'll grant you mentioned digital postage. This simply is not robust enough
>to handle the world of a commercial remailer operator. We'll just have to
>agree to disagree here because the standard digital postage argument simply
>doesn't sway me to support it.
>

What's wrong with the idea of digital postage?  What else do you have in
mind?


There are a couple of problems that arise when money in any form gets
involved:

1)  refunds:  If one remailer in a chain fails to deliver a message, How
does a user get a refund without having the message traced back to him?

2)  Business/Gov't dishonesty:  Imagine if 50% of all remailers are owned
and operated by the same company.  Now imagine if that company did not have
the same morality/ideaology as we do.  Now imagine if that same company was
LEA friendly. I don't think I need to tell you why this is a bad thing.







From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 26 23:33:13 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:33:13 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <199709270356.WAA14725@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



At 8:56 PM -0700 9/26/97, Jim Choate wrote:


>I'll grant you mentioned digital postage. This simply is not robust enough
>to handle the world of a commercial remailer operator. We'll just have to
>agree to disagree here because the standard digital postage argument simply
>doesn't sway me to support it.

That's OK, you don't have to.

And the person who earlier today said that remailers should _not_ be
commercialized, he doesn't have to support it either.

The point is that some remailers will remail for free. Some will remail for
some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.

What _others_ think is not really too important.

It seems fairly obvious that some form of metered service--remailing for a
fee--is likely to evolve. Charityware remailers will work for a while, so
long as the usage is low and the expectations are even lower. But
eventually those with an actual need for anonymous communication will pay
for the service. How much, and when, and in what form, all this remains to
emerge.

I call this metered usage "digital postage" because that's what it is. It
has to be untraceable, obviously, and so some form of blinded cash, or
blinded token (e.g., "use once tokens") has to be used.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From attila at hun.org  Sat Sep 27 00:06:30 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:06:30 +0800
Subject: Welcome back, Sandy!
In-Reply-To: <342C514D.62F@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199709270615.AAA16112@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    let's see... how do I phrase this?  ...uuuuhhh.

    Hey, I got it!  

    Toto's lost it! (not that he ever had it)

    some things just never change.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNCyka704kQrCC2kFAQFHNAP/TEYhTOVpeG3wTfJjX4u88tk0yj8DDA4p
5sA0yJpOmoZ3rM3mdY0PcHeagyxPfIXp/TccJNt5yfaNZkGrdeaBhWVsa/pwu+oZ
Ahk08JK949cQqjZ8Wd5WkAtz//52fxL46CijzsYqxNyUbuqlffxdnuXtO6YwBiiR
BjAlbF8oYb0=
=iHxM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 27 00:06:31 1997
From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:06:31 +0800
Subject: Leaving again
Message-ID: 




I`ll be off the list again for a while, and this address may well be 
closed, not sure yet. If anyone needs to get me +44 (0)410 933621 is 
always a good one to try, I should be back on the list within a few weeks 
though.

Bye for now.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul at crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul at cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From attila at hun.org  Sat Sep 27 00:12:01 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:12:01 +0800
Subject: Compromising the constitution in style [was] Re: Do not pass Go. Mime-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <342C3D7F.7229@dev.null>
Message-ID: <3D7F342C.3CE2@hun.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970926:1655 
    A Player To Be Named Later  purported to expostulate:

    [snip]

+  Why is it that people who would castigate, slander and lynch a person
+who cheats at golf, are so eager to preach 'compromise' with those who
+want to cheat at 'the Constitution'?

    elementary, Mr. Watson: politicians _must_ pass a law, even a bad
    law (so they can go home and say they were doing their job). in
    America they call it "log rolling".

    with few exceptions, todays politicians are a collection of morally 
    derelict, intellectually bankrupt, ego-aggrandizing inanities.

    power corrupts so vicariously their threadbare cranial vacuities that
    they succomb to the ultimate aphrodesiac: governance; any governance
    will do since the rules do not apply to them. alone they thunder in
    paranoid schizophrenia.

    when the day comes, the tumbrils shall roll to the fantasy of 
    Saint-Saens Organ Symphony (#3) --do not ask for whom the bell 
    tolls, it tolls for thee. (EH) we are closing the 3rd of 5 movements

    and none shall have the loyal lady in Stendahl's 'The Red and the
    Black' to caress their severed heads.

 [snip]

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNCytkb04kQrCC2kFAQGZrAP/b0F5xxyilEtHKY0V6HxN6OOLR8KJosoc
oQEn/Agzs1IX/e1pOtL07+1p7Tpf/racQSE/Nh8rY0eL111Wy56U5cxYI6ms9GnZ
Vl8qcMSiC6zhqb5JOscTcXRAMv21hJeNmjEqTU50SK6xjA2XsToA43P3L+b81f6B
msuJPKNVWuA=
=gSey
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org  Sat Sep 27 00:15:42 1997
From: wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org (Mark Rogaski)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:15:42 +0800
Subject: None
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

An entity claiming to be Anonymous wrote:

: 
: That vile salamander Gingrich, squeaker of the
: House, is slobbering about a drug-free America
: by the year 2001. What a dreary prospect! Of
: course this does not include alcohol and tobacco,
: 

That should read:  ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
patented.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo at pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCywEsHFI4kt/DQOEQIW7wCfcHVBqjOvrG5QTDtncgHtFJlLdbMAn10D
B9EdytCjscmkfz68nAxy2zdB
=FvHd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org  Sat Sep 27 00:21:43 1997
From: wendigo at ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org (Mark Rogaski)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:21:43 +0800
Subject: Stel
Message-ID: <199709270710.DAA26062@deathstar.jabberwock.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Has anyone heard anything recently about CERT-IT's STEL?  I like it much
better than deslogin (although, I can't seem to get steld working on Linux
boxes ...), and have been waiting for the protocol to catch on.  It's been beta for over a year now.

Doc

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo at pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNCyxYMHFI4kt/DQOEQIPowCgp0fwxqMaaWoJfAhZzTq4BVWMhk0Aniyi
tnKR4VDkK2aRNHofWcuVFrry
=eSW0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 27 00:27:03 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:27:03 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

David E. Smith wrote:
>> Incidentally, if somebody offered you colocation space, would you be
>> willing to set up your machine there?
>
>I wouldn't, and I hope not many other remailer operators would
>either.  A lot of the security on my machine comes from having
>physical control over it.

Good point.  Also, using a dialup gives you another layer of physical
privacy.  You could even move the machine around from time to time.
This could even foil the Big Boys if they don't want to reveal how
well they can track things.

(Corollary: Even if PGP is NSA breakable, you can still use it for
drug dealing and bribery.)

>(That includes the ability to rapidly delete things with extreme
>prejudice should the spooks come knocking at the door.) If I'm not
>sleeping in the room next to my machine, I don't have that kind of
>control.

What is on your machine that has to be deleted?  I suppose you'd want
to power cycle it since the private key (or a passphrase) will be
sitting in memory.  Is there anything on the disk that must be
deleted?

More operations questions: according to Raph's chart, your machine has
an "uptime" of 99.64%.  I assume that means Raph's experiments showed
that 36 messages out of 1000 disappeared.  Did I assume correctly?

If so, what accounts for these message losses?  I would expect that if
your machine was down, even for a couple of days, that the incoming
messages would be queued up on other machines and none would be lost.

BTW, my intention is not be critical of your volunteer work running a
remailer, but to develop an understanding of the issues involved.
Even a response like "the machine was down for three days because I
was in Las Vegas partying" is useful because it would suggest that
remailer operators are not adequately compensated for their work.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCyf1JaWtjSmRH/5AQG1lAf9HS5Hu9HX32Uij93MEaWzG4BOqgj9/mok
W+Ngjnz2yDKW3g7MoN+Ypvy05EGPNtwZjhigRkUzSIHfT7gYGlbclcf1p2aZk4L5
MT1wP1zdT0cdUoIjTwSa/VXgHuuPLTo68LhnbdCTVgLjbqMaC7DxvrGam7C7CXcT
POxjh7bpwrz8LJ0YmALuhqITv+QxPqv0jeCigsYqtv9wEcPdIp9Y+If4+u5+aln4
FejVogjqSGl8E8bICc5GMNFifXKcpGkGNb992P4IUHjyZmmgQRqMhuS6yWjHM2cM
uWj0fbH+/Yab+svKsULz0aqbG670A5VzriP+800JAJd8XtZd7T5y9w==
=gqzn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 27 00:32:47 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:32:47 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)

The brutally simple way to do this would be to generate an ecash
certificate, made out to cash, and tack it at the beginning of a
message which is then encrypted for the remailer.  The modifications
to the remailer software seem (to me) to be slight since you just call
the Digicash application and ask it to try depositing the payment.
If it works, the message is handled.

Since everybody is in the habit of not paying, you could just give
priority to paying customers.  People who don't want to pay get their
mail delayed by four hours.  Some people may pay to expedite some
messages but not others.

There are probably better ways to do it, but that would get it up and
running.

What aspects of this problem am I missing?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNCyV7JaWtjSmRH/5AQEdDAf+L/8KmV2fTeRPtkD2mSRcyLoyJh0pj8lc
KSkXfFeQyTleiw7iPaF02PgNWgEXuFF5np02Qksz9LvcdWJR8Al6WyyiyOdGOo0S
lCuguS1CPGYhfJktvyvWLMkWlimICGfy6G7I3vkzIdRsS1tsCTCEHq8XM1/u8RuU
GBejo9ZUYu5CR4BzlbG/eJqUhQMgQkzOE9pifQGFGkEAX7cKxL/DImlIEpcSYavj
OncVb808gd746bS53fg6X6U7U5G1GFhL0CAP1Vk0HBDU+a3UdDue29Sn40Dugw2m
g8qkIYGQGvZxCJK5u6FcMaN7b7WyjjZTqSC5/nTDO5yAPbZqppuKhQ==
=2b7M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 27 00:37:53 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:37:53 +0800
Subject: clean machine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970926122501.0069eb50@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970926233425.007485b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 12:25 PM 09/26/1997 -0700, rarab at buffnet.net wrote:
>Can anyone tell me if a person could expect to encounter any difficulty
>with US Customs if they leave the US with PGP on a lap top machine? Would
>you be questioned about the contents of your machine? 

If you're wearing a suspicious-looking RSA t-shirt and carrying lots of
computer stuff, they may ask.  If not, they probably won't unless you 
make an issue of it.  As far as the law goes, there's some sort of exception
for taking out software for personal use that you're planning to bring back,
and not give away to anybody while you're gone.  You have to keep a log of
the times you've done it, but don't have to produce it when leaving.
You may have to be a US citizen to use this.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From hauman at bb.com  Sat Sep 27 00:49:39 1997
From: hauman at bb.com (Glenn Hauman)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:49:39 +0800
Subject: The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 6:30 PM -0400 9/26/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The problem with all the current bills like original SAFE and ProCODE is
>that they're too wimpy, abstract, arcane. Who cares about protecting
>business? Nobody, at least not when you'll be dubbed soft on crime. So
>what's the one thing everyone cares about and wants to protect?
>
>Yes, that's right: CHILDREN!!!! I think someone should introduce a bill
>called "The Child Molester Prevention and Effective Sentencing Act of
>1997."

I've been looking for an excuse to post this, and if someone can find me
the original article I'd be grateful:

Christopher Caldwell in the New York Press quotes an article on child porn
that appeared in the Times Literary Supplement by American University
professor Kenneth Anderson:

"The fears of the religious are real.... Still, it rarely occurs to
conservative religionists in America that in sacralizing children they have
thereby secularized their God. In order to play with power in the public
sphere, the religious Right has raised children higher than God, precisely
because in knows that children are a God for the secular and so can be
invoked in public in a way that God Himself cannot.

"But this relationship depends on the secular Left-liberals cooperating, by
also making children a transcendental category. That they have done so has
less to do with the welfare of children than with a restless search by
these elites for a source of moral legitimacy to shore up their managerial
foundations."


Best-- Glenn Hauman, BiblioBytes
       http://www.bb.com/







From cleanring at t-1net.com  Sat Sep 27 15:52:44 1997
From: cleanring at t-1net.com (Dynamic O.N.E. Worldwide)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Need Quarters ??
Message-ID: <19970927341MAA32069@post.21.213.66>


How Much Money Do You Spend...Per Month...Doing Laundry?

Imagine...

If You Could Buy A Box Of Laundry Detergent For Under $80.00,
That Would Last The Rest Of Your Life...Would You Buy it ?!?!?

We Have That Box...And It's NOT Detergent Or Soap!!!

To Find Out What's Inside...

Click Here NOW: http://www.t-1net.com/opportunity/cleanring.html

r





From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Sep 27 01:13:18 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:13:18 +0800
Subject: Drug free society [Was: Re: None]
In-Reply-To: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Mark Rogaski wrote:

> : That vile salamander Gingrich, squeaker of the
> : House, is slobbering about a drug-free America
> : by the year 2001. What a dreary prospect! Of
> : course this does not include alcohol and tobacco,
> : 
> 
> That should read:  ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
> patented.
I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".

The analysis is obvious.

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From eb at comsec.com  Sat Sep 27 02:10:23 1997
From: eb at comsec.com (Eric Blossom)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:10:23 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970925101645.006f6580@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199709252153.OAA22703@comsec.com>



> Beepers are also universal with sales people, partly because
> cell phones don't have enough battery life; the new PCS phones that
> combine the two capabilities may change this.
> Computer dealer; drug dealer; - the latter knews what he's selling...

Beepers are also nice for people who like to be reachable but don't
care for "Location Escrow".  Many of us carry cell phones, but don't
keep them powered up.

Eric






From waeho at vol.cz  Sat Sep 27 19:30:29 1997
From: waeho at vol.cz (waeho at vol.cz)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Earn Big $$ Through Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199709271621OAA12908@vol.net>


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From Senders at Domains.com  Sat Sep 27 20:05:56 1997
From: Senders at Domains.com (Senders)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:05:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Accept Checks by Phone, Fax or E-Mail for FREE!
Message-ID: <199709272967PAA20177@post.ma.ultranet.com>


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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep 27 06:36:55 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:36:55 +0800
Subject: NSA/FBI Agreement
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970927125844.0086fe8c@pop.pipeline.com>



There was an earlier request for info about the working
relationship between the NSA and the FBI. One of the
Memorandums of Understanding (MOU) between the
two was published as part of the NRC cryptography
report:

   http://jya.com/nrcn3.txt

This a part of the report's excellent overview of governmental 
electronic surveillance, the agencies involved and their 
mandates in its expanded Section N:

   http://jya.com/nrcnidx.htm







From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Sep 27 06:55:11 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:55:11 +0800
Subject: Charles Platt on wiretaps, government abuse of power
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Declan McCullagh  writes:

>
> [Charles is an author, a Wired contributor, and a friend. --Declan]

No wonder that lying forger Declan is friends with the lying psychopath
Charles Platt.  Declan, you threatened to post the transcript of my
interview - please go ahead, so everyone can confirm that you forged
quotes from me.


Sample e-mail from Charles Platt, discussing his view of the polices:


Received: (from cp at localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id AAA21949; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:43:01 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:43:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Platt 
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" 
Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com, Charles Platt 
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w at bwalk.dm.com>
Message-Id: 
Errors-To: cp at panix.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way

Okay, Vulis, that's it, you have made an explicit threat in a public
forum, I know where you live, I know your phone number, in fact I once
spoke to you on the phone, and I will be suggesting to the rather slow
witted people at my local police precinct that you have already
demonstrated unstable, threatening behavior toward many people, giving me
good reason to believe that you are capable of assault.

This is the last you will hear from me online. Anything further will be
stated in person.



Sample usenet articles by Charles Platt:

Subject:      Re: electricity torture?
From:         cp at panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:         1997/01/31
Message-Id:   <5crvmh$jhe at panix.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.torture

I suggest an enhancement to the basic phone-torture scenario. Buy a cheap
answering machine that picks up on the third or fourth ring. Inside the
answering machine there is usually a relay that closes when the machine
picks up. It might be interesting to adapt that relay to supply an
electric shock to the slave. Thus, the slave gets to sit and listen as the
phone rings once, twice, a third time ... and of course, sometimes the
master hangs up BEFORE the fourth ring, just to make life more
interesting.

It seems to me, true torture has to entail anticipation and uncertainty.


Subject:      Re: Orgasm control
From:         cp at panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:         1997/01/05
Message-Id:   <5ap55i$iit at panix.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.torture

Dave & Eddie (dave-ed at dircon.co.uk) wrote:

> Has anyone got any experiences, tips or techniques for encouraging and
> building up to extreme intensity a male's need for orgasm, and then
> withholding the longed-for and urgently-needed relief of ejaculation -
> over a very long period of time, and as a torture?

Trouble is, in the long term this tends to result in enlargement of the
prostate. Of course that can be a torture in itself (urinary problems etc)
and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but at least the victim should be
aware of these potential long-term penalties.


Subject:      Re: Elec. Tort. (I was shocked with 220...)
From:         cp at panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:         1997/02/19
Message-Id:   <5egkkm$qbq at panix.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.torture

JBtspflk (jbtspflk at aol.com) wrote:
> BTW, I always thought that the telephone ringing signal was 20Hz AC, not
> DC.

You're right, the ring signal is AC. Old phones used a rectifier that
would pass the AC and ring the bell. When the ringing signal is not
present, there is a DC potential on the line. This isn't painful but the
AC ring signal does, er, give you a shock.

This doesn't have much to do with torture, does it? Unless, of course,
you regard boredom as a form of torture. "Tonight, my dear, I am going to
tie you down--and read interesting facts about the TELEPHONE SYSTEM!"


Subject:  Re: Hand Crank Generator
From:  cp at panix.com (Charles Platt)
Date:  1997/01/06
Message-Id:  <5ashd1$k2m at panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.torture

Leonard (ixion at dorsai.org) wrote:
> How will this tell me how to effectively use this device?
> I'm still looking for practical data.
> Anybody ever use one of these things?

All I can tell you is I used to fool around with one of these things, as a
kid, with a friend. As kids, we took turns with one person turning the
handle while the other took a wire in each hand. As an adult, I would say
this is definitely not such a great idea. I find it hard to believe,
however, that you're going to do any harm if the two (dry) conductors
touch (dry) skin just a few inches apart. As a previous post said, avoid
running current through major organs (heart, brain, etc!).

A previous post gave various resistance values for skin. If you want to
know how much current the generator will pass through skin, first obtain a
potentiometer (variable resistor) that can take a reasonable amount of
current--1 watt, say. Use a volt/amp/ohm meter to calibrate the
potentiometer--i.e. mark where the knob points for 1000 ohms, 5000 ohms,
etc. Now attach one wire from your generator to one side of the
potentiometer, link the other side of your potentiometer with your
volt/amp/ohm meter, switch the meter to measure CURRENT (amps), and attach
the other side of the meter to the other wire of your generator. In other
words, the generator, potentiometer, and meter form a closed daisy chain.
Crank the handle at different potentiometer settings and see what readings
you get from your meter. This will only be an APPROXIMATE guide, and you
may want to check the skin resistance of your actual test subject too.

Note: all the above advice dates back to stuff I did 25 years ago. I think
it's accurate (if it's not, someone will probably flame me anyway); but
as with all forms of consensual torture, it might be a good idea to try it
on yourself first.




---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From brianbr at together.net  Sat Sep 27 07:22:34 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:22:34 +0800
Subject: FCC Proposes V-Chip Requirements for TV Manufacturers
Message-ID: <199709271406.KAA14468@mx01.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/26/97 2:20 PM, Bill Stewart (stewarts at ix.netcom.com)  passed this
wisdom:

>The FCC yesterday proposed rules that would give television 
>manufacturers until July 1 1998 to put V-Chips in half of new TV 
>sets with monitors 13 inchesor larger,and in all sets by July 1, 
>1999. Reed Hundt said that this will "ensure that V-Chip technology 
>does in fact exist in a relatively short period of time".Industry 
>officials protested that the time limit is way too short for 
>manufacturers,saying they need 18 months - 2 years. Comment period 
>runs until November.
>
>Meanwhile, some of the major TV networks are going to a more 
>detailed rating system,Sex/Violence/Language/SuggestiveDialog, with 
>a FantasyViolence category for kids' shows.NBC is resisting 
>that.


   At the risk of asking the obvious .... what ever happened to
parents supervising their kids ... I know all the reasons ... mod and
dad working etc .... but I teach school, and here in Vermont I still
run into families with two breadwinners who actually know what their
kids are doing ... (sadly, not as many as I wish I would meet; and
since my job is working with 'at risk' students 98% of the parents I
deal with have no clue as to what their kids are doing)

  The joke of the whole thing is that most probably the kids will know
how to manage the 'controls' better than the parents and they will use
the V-ratings and controls to figure out which shows they will find
'most interesting!'

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNC0Qp8dZgC62U/gIEQL/qwCfZCgLjnIND1sI6yYIVNrFtuLCbOAAn3k5
PgcBlDQdw/15KXFUJnAay01V
=7mLT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For my PGP Keys     
        

  "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"







From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 27 07:30:51 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:30:51 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709271337.IAA21311@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:18:02 -0700
> From: Tim May 
> Subject: Digital Postage

> At 8:56 PM -0700 9/26/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> The point is that some remailers will remail for free.

And consequences will be:

 -  in general intermittent reliability with boxes going up and down
    like yo-yo's. I suspect it will be like BBS's were in the early
    80's when everyone put one up for two weeks.

 -  limited traffic bandwidth, why would some kid or hobbyist be
    willing to spend (for example) $1k/month to keep a T1 going so
    others can use it.

 -  parties who would not use a fully commercial site because they
    don't want to pay for it will flock to such servers. Because
    they loose nothing if it goes down they have no reason to
    consider the impact of their actions on themselves.

> Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
> Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.

And there are a couple of problems with this:

 -  it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with
    other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add
    don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism.

 -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00? What about intermediate
    remailers and their desire to get a cut of the pie?

> What _others_ think is not really too important.

Really? Tell that to the DA when some bozo from the local Scientoligist shows
up and starts harrassing you with legal actions. No, CyberPromo is a clear
indication that what others think can in fact sink your boat no matter how
big a bilge pump you might have.

> It seems fairly obvious that some form of metered service--remailing for a
> fee--is likely to evolve.

It must evolve or else we won't have anonymous remailers. People in general
are not going to build these sorts of systems out of some philanthropic
streak. Even if they did, it is equaly obvious they won't be reliable for
long-term use.

> Charityware remailers will work for a while, so
> long as the usage is low and the expectations are even lower. But
> eventually those with an actual need for anonymous communication will pay
> for the service. How much, and when, and in what form, all this remains to
> emerge.

Agreed. However, I do not believe that anonymous remailers have a
sufficiently parallel structure with physical mail to carry that system
over. When the Austin Cpunks had kourier up about a year and a half ago
it became clear that financing such an enterprise is not trivial. I suspect
that anon remailers will operate by something similar to ISP's where when
the account is setup some fee is paid for use and not on a use by use based
fee. The problem with that is it creates a 'concrete' link between the
party desiring anonymity and the remailer operator that may be exploited in
some (most? all?) cases to break that anonymity.

> I call this metered usage "digital postage" because that's what it is. It
> has to be untraceable, obviously, and so some form of blinded cash, or
> blinded token (e.g., "use once tokens") has to be used.

The problem is that it shuts out people like one of my customers who still
uses a 2400 modem, even after I offer to give her a spare 14.4 that I have.
While I can appreciate the desire to expunge such luddite thinking as a
gear-head but as  a business I don't care about their philosophy unless it
leads me to their purse strings.

If remailers are going to work as a business we can't turn our back on
traditional payment mechanisms. The problem, as I see it, is that there is
no clear mechanism for me to write a normal check and have that turn
into a anon account easily without involving 3rd parties and their
concommittent extra costs - further increasing the end-user cost to do
business. There better be a reason or they won't pay for long.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 27 07:30:58 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:30:58 +0800
Subject: pna.show_story?p_art_id=347667&p_section_name=Sci-Tech
Message-ID: <199709271341.IAA21333@einstein.ssz.com>



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   [INLINE] September 27, 1997 1:23 pm GMT
   [INLINE]
   Sci-Tech Title [INLINE] Ad Space ________________________    ___Word
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   The story below was selected from CNN Custom News - a new personalized
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                          MOVING MONEY IN CYBERSPACE
                                       
   NewsBytes
   26-SEP-97
   
   
   SINGAPORE, 1997 SEP 26 (Newsbytes) -- By Kenneth Kway. When it comes
   to conducting monetary transactions on the Internet, the world can
   only move as fast as its financial institutions. Banks in particular
   have an important role to play in the acceptance of the Internet as a
   legitimate medium in which secure business transactions can be
   performed.
   
   But even banks in well-connected Singapore have been cautious in
   embracing the Internet for their business while being clearly
   interested in tapping in on an increasing number of Internet users in
   Singapore and the region. The Development Bank of Singapore (DBS) is
   one of the first to make Internet banking a reality.
   
   DBS hopes to revolutionize Singapore's local banking industry by
   giving customers the convenience of banking through the Internet at
   any time they choose and from anywhere they happen to be. "We expect
   other banks will soon be unveiling similar programs but we are the one
   of the first to bring this service to our customers," said Lau Chan
   Sin, DBS deputy president.
   
   "We want this project to contribute to the creation of an IT culture
   where customers can experience the ease and convenience of banking on
   the Web," said Lau.
   
   The trial involving a select group of DBS customers and staff will
   last until October, when the system will go live. They will have
   online access to detailed information regarding their results. Among
   other things, they will be able to obtain real time information about
   their accounts, track cheque status, transfer funds and effect payment
   of bills.
   
   "For now, it is unlikely that Internet banking will move into areas
   that are not already covered by phone banking," says Datapro analyst
   Lim Soo Ching. "As it is, banks are trying to work out a business
   proposition for phone banking. Online banking would face the same
   concerns."
   
   The bank's home page, users' first point of access, will deliver
   banking news to the customer. The bank has gone one step further and
   allowed users to customize the kind of news they want to receive. Each
   time they check the area on the DBS home page labelled "Your Personal
   News" they will be presented with the personalized bulletin that is
   relevant to their needs and banking habits.
   
   The bank has put in place a slew of industry standard security
   measures like firewalls and authentication services. These measures
   are supplemented by a proprietary security solution. The emphasis is
   on confidentiality of the transaction as much as protecting against
   unauthorized access.
   
   "Looking at the technology the bank has out in place, security is not
   a problem," says Lim. "Banking may be actually safer than phone
   banking, but the user perception is just the opposite." The bank
   stresses the importance of user cooperation to maintain a high level
   of security. "The customer has to work hand in hand with the security
   systems that the bank has put in place," said Mrs Elsie Foh, executive
   vice president of retail banking at DBS. "For instance they should
   remember to log off from the system once they have completed their
   banking session.
   
   The bank was not at liberty to reveal the equipment and software used
   in the project but it was disclosed that the entire setup cost S$2
   million. Aside from an initial sign-up fee, the bank intends to charge
   users a monthly fee for the program after the initial 6-month
   promotion period.
   
   DBS will add to the initial services offered through the Bank's
   Internet Banking service. "We met with great success bringing our
   customers the convenience of share application and COE (Certificate of
   Entitlement) bids through ATMs," said Foh. "Similarly, we intend to
   broaden the scope of our Internet services to include more diverse
   types of commercial applications."
   
   Investment related transactions, insurance purchase and third party
   funds transfer are just some of the areas being explored for future
   implementation. In this way, the banks hope to build greater value on
   the new service and attract a high user base. DBS expects 30 000
   customers in the first year of the system's operation and projects
   that the number will climb to 150000 in 3 years.
   
   "Culture will also make a difference," says Lim. "Asia tends to take
   longer than the West in the acceptance of new technology." He cites
   automated teller machines (ATMs) as one such example. "It will be some
   time before online banking becomes the norm."
   
   DBS is looking into providing all its users with personal financial
   manager software such as Intuit or Quicken. This would allow customers
   to better coordinate their personal finances with the bank. Such a
   package will most likely be customized to work with the bank's system.
   "The significance of this technology is that any computer in the world
   that can access the Internet is instantly a transaction terminal that
   can be used to do banking." said Lim.
   
   
   
   (Reported by Newsbytes News Network http://www.newsbytes.com)
   
   
   
   Search the net: InfoSeek ___________________ ____ [Help]
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   Copyright © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. A Time Warner Company
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From brianbr at together.net  Sat Sep 27 07:36:36 1997
From: brianbr at together.net (Brian B. Riley)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:36:36 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709271417.KAA14041@mx02.together.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 9/26/97 11:49 PM, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com)  passed this wisdom:

>> And, since you asked, would it not be in the interests of remailer
>> operators to have a script which would generate random text,
encrypt
>> it to various remailers and send it out as 'cover traffic'?
>> It would seem to me that this would be particularly valuable for
the
>> remailers that receive the least amount of traffic.
>
>This aspect of traffic cover is more complex than it at first 
>seems. Take for example the second simplest model that I am aware 
>of. For each email that comes in n bogus emails go out with one 
>remailed copy. So for each email we receive we end up processing 
>n+2 emails. Since to be useful n must be reasonably larger than 2 
>to be effective we are left with a quandry. Aswe process more 
>traffic (ie become successful) we find our bandwidth need growing 
>at a linear rate of n, unfortunately the skills and resources to 
>support this increase also get larger as we become more successful. 

 I am incline to think that as the traffic goes up the need to
generate 'n' mails for each 'real' inbound/outbound goes down.  It
would seem to me that one could specify a general volume level, ie, in
a given period of time, say 1 hour if only 1-20 objects of mail comes
in, generate some random amount between say 20 and 100 bogus objects
to have a volume level that provides the uncertainty to
foil/complicate traffic analysis. If 20 to 40 real mails come in,
generate 30 to 150 objects, if 40 to 100 comes in maybe only 40 to 200
extra objects. As the volume rises, it seems to be the need for
voluminous additional bogus objects decreases somewhat as you have
plenty of objects to get a good 'mix' and 'latency.'

  I will admit I am a neophyte here and am working more on what
appears to me as common sense; I would be happy to be educated as to
what is wrong with the above logic ...

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Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr
  For PGP Keys  

 "I left him for dead and buried his axe.  If there was a Valhalla, I
  wanted him weaponless." from "Highlander"







From blancw at cnw.com  Sat Sep 27 07:37:23 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:37:23 +0800
Subject: Moral Legitimacy (was Child Molester Prevention)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970927072718.0068f0cc@cnw.com>



Glenn Hauman quoted:

>"But this relationship depends on the secular Left-liberals cooperating, by
>also making children a transcendental category. That they have done so has
>less to do with the welfare of children than with a restless search by
>these elites for a source of moral legitimacy to shore up their managerial
>foundations."
............................................................


	a restless search.....for a source....
	of moral legitimacy....

I am moved to preach to the Choir, for this struck me as a significant
series of words to remember.  (There have been many posts lately to which I
wanted to comment, but I'm restraining myself to this one.)  .

Some people search within the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of
Independence, for moral legitimacy to their political stands.   

Some efforts for moral legitimacy are from people who feel left out and
need (desperately) to find a place for themselves within a social/political
context.  Ex:  "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men [...]
are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights..." i.e., with
certain qualities which in reality make them, therefore, no less
significant politically than any who would presume to be above them.

Some efforts seem hypocritical, appearing to be attempts at creating the
image (illusion) of being founded, similar to the concepts of Natural
Rights, upon something unquestionable or inalienable, yet upon closer
examination resembling less the endowments of a Superior Creator than of
certain psychological desires of regular Human Beings.

Differentiating between Deific Origins and other Sources:  the concept of
being endowed with qualities like "inalienable Rights" leads one to think
that one (any individual) has within them the justification for standing
separately from, and acting independently of, the absolute hold of a
"ruler" of a whole group of people.

Contrast that with concepts which lead one to forego the idea of oneself as
their own person, substituting instead the image of being situated in a
hospital, where everyone is the equivalent of a patient and all are cared
for by an Official Nurse who looks after their best interest.  All
officially justifiable and legitimate investments within this domain are
identified not by reference to innate strengths which anyone might find
within themselves, but instead are categorized as varieties of weaknesses
which give argument to the propriety of surrendering to the ministrations
of Authorized Overseers - who will sympathize, succor, and tend to those
investments.  The intent is for everyone to internalize the image of
themselves as invalids within an atmosphere of sympathy for their "special"
condition; invalids warranting the attention of the only ones who will be
sensitive to their delicacies -  those worthy causes which everyone else
neglects.

Whereas the Founders (of the U.S.) looked to innate qualities of goodness
for the justification to their rebellion against mistreatment, these
Upwardly Mobile Middle Managers look for untended frailties at the "bottom
of the barrel" to provide just cause for acquiescence to their programs.

Question:  what is "moral" legitimacy (more than merely legitimate)?
Better than Thine? One which would be so worthy of one's investment, that
it would seem like an obligation, a duty; in a society, that which would be
deemed worthy of *everyone's* time and effort, without exception.

Is it good to search for (establish) a moral basis to use as a defense of
one's manner of existence, or is it really unnecessary?  If left
unreferenced, unmentioned, will that leave a vaccum in the mind which might
otherwise support  such endeavors?  Does one *need* to legitimize one's
(political) behavior?   When it becomes necessary for a people to "assume
among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the
Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitles them, a decent respect to the
opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which
impel them to the separation."

The Founders felt the need to justify their break from the Mother Country.
 Today the UMMM feel the need to accomplish acquiescence to their goal of
situating themselves as The Legitimate Ministers of Important Matters.  As
they must evoke feelings of justification for their intents and purposes,
the reasons for these, the source, must appear to be Moral, to be
undeniably Basic and inarguably appropriate, neutralizing all argument
against it.

But "[...] when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably
the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to
provide new Guards for their future security."   

Like, inviolable encryption.  

    ..
Blanc






From MyFriends at aol.com  Sat Sep 27 22:51:13 1997
From: MyFriends at aol.com (MyFriends at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:51:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Mass E-Mailers Beware!
Message-ID: <199709280551.WAA17764@toad.com>


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        partner.  Remember, your investment is only $297.00
        if you order within the next 48 hours.
  
 







----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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From 4xwx at 4xwxq6.net  Sat Sep 27 23:09:01 1997
From: 4xwx at 4xwxq6.net (4xwx at 4xwxq6.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE DOWNLOAD!!
Message-ID: <67818402_64538571>



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From azur at netcom.com  Sat Sep 27 08:11:02 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:11:02 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



At 3:18 AM -0400 9/27/97, Anonymous wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
>software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
>sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)

One item which has been missing is an accessible API. (The Digicash
merchant software is, I believe, designed for online use only.)  This need
is about to be fulfilled.  Another item is a service to sell/redeem ecash
w/o need of a bank account and supporting client software.  This too is
about to become available.

--Steve







From frissell at panix.com  Sat Sep 27 08:11:49 1997
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:11:49 +0800
Subject: Chutzpah!  FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
In-Reply-To: <199709260354.XAA01881@wintermute.ny.zeitgeist.com>
Message-ID: 





On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, David HM Spector wrote:

> 
> 
> FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
> (09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT)
> By David Braun, TechWire 
> 
> MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
> threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
> nondemocratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
> Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
> Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.
> 

"This is a Republic, not a Democracy"

-way it spozed to be...








From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 27 08:32:05 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:32:05 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709271532.KAA01180@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Remailer latencies (fwd)
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 10:17:52 -0400
> From: "Brian B. Riley" 

>  I am incline to think that as the traffic goes up the need to
> generate 'n' mails for each 'real' inbound/outbound goes down.

In effect as you get more popular your traffic becomes easier to track.
I don't think I would use a remailer that advertised this 'feature'.

Traffic analysis is something that is easily automated so the measure of
success (to my mind anyway) is what sort of resources would a mallet need
to get a solution versus the time frame that solution might we relevant.
Admittedly this is a very sloppy area of remailers, I am not aware of any
analysis with anon. remailers in mind.

If anyone does know of a source please cough it up...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From djp at pobox.asc.upenn.edu  Sat Sep 27 09:07:34 1997
From: djp at pobox.asc.upenn.edu (David J. Phillips)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:07:34 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks in my doctoral research
Message-ID: <199709271551.LAA12871@noc4.dccs.upenn.edu>



I've been writing a doctoral dissertation in which cypherpunks play a
prominent role.  

The research focuses on the negotiations by which standards of
identification are incorporated into new consumer payment systems.  In
particular, I am looking at how issues of privacy, anonymity, and
identification are woven into public discussions of these systems.

I have identified three systems (Ecash, Mondex, and Citibank's EMS), and
I've analyzed talk about these systems in three sites - press articles, the
U.S. House of Representatives, and the cypherpunks mailing list.  

If you're interested, I'd appreciate any comments on this work.  I've posted
a draft of the cypherpunks section on my web site:
.  I'm especially interested
in knowing if you believe that my analysis is accurate and complete, and if
you believe its publication might effect cypherpunks themselves, or the
social and political projects which cypherpunks share. 

I would like to add one caveat.  I had to limit my analysis to a particular
time period.  Neither the discussion, nor the list, nor the entity of
cypherpunks is the same now as then.  Please bear this in mind as you read.
And please forward this note to anyone who may be interested, but is no
longer part of the cypherpunks list.

Thanks.

David J. Phillips
Annenberg School for Communication
University of Pennsylvania

 






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Sep 27 09:08:18 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:08:18 +0800
Subject: Drug free society [Was: Re: None]
In-Reply-To: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: 



>> That should read:  ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
>> patented.
>I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
>It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".
>
>The analysis is obvious.

Yes, "Just Say No...to Prescription Drugs"

--Steve







From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Sat Sep 27 10:21:11 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:21:11 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Sep27.125557edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Lizard, you're missing the point. 
> 
> First, the NETcenter was sold to the Commerce cmte yesterday as a way to
> perform successful cryptanalysis on enciphered documents. The rhetoric was
> all about keeping codebreakers up to date with codemakers. To anyone with
> a glimmering of a clue about modern cryptography, this is complete
> bullshit. Industry lobbyists on Monday also tried to push this line at a
> press conference; I called them on it and they said, no, I was wrong, this
> center would let the FBI keep up with the times. Yeah right.

I think you are among the most vocal when saying that congress has no
clue.  Replace GAK snake-oil with a cryptographic-moonshot snake-oil
proposal (with branch offices in key districts) and it becomes clearer.
Move the superconducting supercollider folks to quantum supercomputing.

If they can believe myths that crime and terrorism will increase
exponentially if strong crypto is made available, they should also believe
that for a few billion, they will be able to crack PGP (sans GAK).  When
it doesn't work, they will demand a few billion more every few years
instead of demanding GAK which will close down their bureaucracy.  They
may say they want to be the GAKers, but then you will have to replace all
the number theory consultants with database consultants.

> Second, the NSA already performs these duties. Whether they should be
> allowed to or not is a different argument. 

But they don't tell the FBI everything.

> Third, there's no funding appropriated for the NETcenter. It's useless
> without it. Again, it's bullshit.

There will be.  Congress finds ways to fund useless projects.

> Fourth, even industry lobbyists admitted to me privately yesterday that
> NETcenter was a scam designed entirely to head off Oxley.

Ssshhhh! someone hear you.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 27 10:38:04 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:38:04 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <98686f498b8ccb27fd4ca5d615f6710e@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve Schear wrote:
>At 3:18 AM -0400 9/27/97, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>>(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
>>software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
>>sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)
>
>One item which has been missing is an accessible API. (The Digicash
>merchant software is, I believe, designed for online use only.)  This
>need is about to be fulfilled.

Digicash has software for Unix platforms which one could very easily
call from a Perl script.  Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't be
ideal, but it would work and should be easy to incorporate into many
of the remailers.  (I think.)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNC02bJaWtjSmRH/5AQEgjgf+MoJMWJpMfStaIvIzGZOhv9NQRPzAWU/V
USmABIwZ4BmkhL+gC7urltqzK9ILgNUPXvxtOTZXJGXm7LX8NApT6P6vvyNC4OZP
jYqQUFZo3eEhQdKiW9xVaq7l7ZovaR7uNfxUnV5bzniXs1dIQJQ1hPVMU8+gW+2D
g49nyGxS0gA4CFZFDDepd7fhDYiZgzOi2fVha+Vtz0fJZ4Lx9LoVb+Ce/bijGmkU
OHkgCqYm3UwZlLZp7FY4pDt0r/7QdYcAayhCAFgDiCxE5o2c+WN3O0a9cqNHuFhx
tBycQBfYewLNHn7FshBZF1pMm7FMp01i07y5AVogCleSqZdH8gJrEg==
=si/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From minow at apple.com  Sat Sep 27 10:41:16 1997
From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:41:16 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: 



>From 
(an e-mail from Bill Gates to Dave Winer)

Bill Gates on Privacy

>From Bill Gates, billg at microsoft.com:

Since I last sent you email on this topic things have gotten a lot worse.

The FBI and the Administration have bills in both the Congress and the
Senate that would force all software sold in the United State by 1999
to allow the government to get at the keys without the user knowing.

Besides the issues of this making it very difficult for us to sell
software to countries like Germany and Canada who want strong encryption
without any backdoor and the issue of how to have the old software work
with the new, there is a huge issue of privacy here. The backdoors that the
government is requiring would create a huge security hole that could be
misused.

I am spending a lot of time on this - calling Congressman and Senators.
However the FBI and the administration are suggesting that restricting
the software industry is key to fighting criminals. Of course they don't
say that criminals will still find it very easy to pre-encrypt the
information they send.

For some reason the public isn't hearing about this issue at all. I
can't believe there isn't more of an outcry. When it went from an
export restriction to a restriction on sofware in the US there should
have been a lot of headlines.







From tcmay at got.net  Sat Sep 27 11:30:07 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:30:07 +0800
Subject: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers
In-Reply-To: <199709270704.DAA26015@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
Message-ID: 



At 9:59 AM -0700 9/27/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
>It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".
>

Many of you have seen my "D.A.R.E." t-shirt that I wear occasionally to Bay
Area parties and events. For those who haven't:


(in large red letters)   D.A.R.E.

                            I turned in my parents

                               and all I got was this

                                    stupid t-shirt


(I bought this t-shirt from an ad in alt.drugs, a group started by our own
John Gilmore, if I recall correctly, and one of the many groups banned at
many sites.)

A reference of course to the D.A.R.E. (Drug Abuse Resistance Education)
program in America's elementary (grammar) schools, wherein children are
encouraged to inform their teachers and the school administrators about
"drugs" being used in their homes. This has resulted in a bunch of raids of
private homes, the imprisonment of some persons, the removal of children
from homes, etc.

Oh, and a whole lot of "investigations" that turned up wine and beer as the
"drugs" the kiddies were squealing about.

Some schools are rethinking their participation in the D.A.R.E. program.
They've discovered the unsurprising fact that kids are smarter than the
narcs think they are, and don't believe the propaganda. Just as kids in my
cohort rejected the "LSD will make you think you can fly" nonsense, pace
the death of daytime television fixture Art Linkletter's daughter...he
admitted decades later that her suicide had nothing to do with LSD, that
she jumped out of a window for her own reasons, and that he was just going
along with the LSD theory to help the Drug War and to give his daughter's
death some meaning. This is how the narcs think.

Several years ago on the Extropians list I expressed my desire to get a
t-shirt made up with a provocative slogan, "D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality
Enhancers," to wear to public events so as to tweak the noses of the Drug
Warriors and the parents who form the Just Say No Brigade of Reserve
Forces. Kennita Watson sent me a t-shirt decal with this on it, to put on a
t-shirt. Someday maybe I will.


--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From pooh at efga.org  Sat Sep 27 11:35:44 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:35:44 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927140255.032fb794@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 03:18 AM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>
>The brutally simple way to do this would be to generate an ecash
>certificate, made out to cash, and tack it at the beginning of a
>message which is then encrypted for the remailer.

The answer to your question may be to first recast your questions and ask
why would someone want to attach ecash?  I assume you are trying to "pay"
for the email you send.  This goes against the general model of the
internet.  Unlike the phone company, the net peers freely with no
interconnection charges, so inter lata charges do not have to be tracked
and collected.  This allows for a flat rate pricing scheme.  For remailers,
this flat rate is generally zero dollars, i.e. free.

There are remailers of various types who offer services for a charge of
some sort.  This is generally a flat rate fee, either per month, or per
year.  There is likely no desire to price on a per item basis.  If there
were, I would think it would be in the millicent range of pricing.

If I were to set up a for pay remailing system, I would prefer to have a
per month, or per year fee.  This is more for the nym model of remailer.  I
assume you mean the Type-I such as you are using now.  It would be
interesting to setup as a test, but I don't see there would be any market
for it.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Sat Sep 27 11:36:29 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:36:29 +0800
Subject: Exports and criminalizing crypto
In-Reply-To: <19970925215418.1688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97Sep27.141620edt.32273@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, John Smith wrote:

> >From: Adam Back 
> >John Smith  writes:
> >> Getting rid of these export restrictions would produce an explosion
> >> of Cypherpunk style crypto software.  It is a big win.
> >
> >I disagree.
> >
> >Cypherpunk (freeware) crypto isn't hardly hindered at all by EAR
> >export nonsense.  

At some point it isn't hindered.  But the process is complex since if the
export can be traced, the exporter can be harrassed.  How much crypto did
Phil Zimmerman write while he was under investigation? And why didn't a
pgp 5.0 come out from outside of the US since the 2.6.2 base was already
there?  It is in no one's interest to become the victim of a governmental
investigation (even Bernstein sued *before* publishing).  All the free
crypto "leaks" out because of the impossibility of control.  But it is a
hinderance since I can't simply place code on my web page and point
everyone at it.

As to SAFE, whether it will pass and in what form, I can't be sure.  I
also can't be sure that a domestic crypto ban would have been introduced
without SAFE being there (though I suspect the FBI already had something
- there was no anti-CALEA bill before CALEA).  As far as interpretations
go, the courts often tend to the bizzare, so I can't be sure what they
would uphold.  Taking the most pessimistic view would have predicted
Bernstein would have lost.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From admin at uneco.org  Sun Sep 28 02:37:29 1997
From: admin at uneco.org (United Eco-action Fund)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RETURN OF THE BUFFALO -AMERINDIAN GREENWIND
Message-ID: 




Dear Friend,

VISIT US AT .  YOU'LL FEEL AT HOME.

In the time it takes to enjoy a lark's happy song you'll know how to cross mighty waters to the land of well being and a bright future.  The earth is generous, but wounded.  She cries out for help.  We must rush to heal her, or, as sure as the eagle flies, death will descend upon us silently as snow in winter.  Set aside distractions.  Take time now.  Open your heart.

THE BUFFALO ARE COMING!

Put your ear to the earth. Listen carefully. Can you hear the mighty roar of ten million hooves?

The buffalo are coming, flattening the tall prairie grass.  Where empty land was lying fallow, rich grass grows again and the great American bison are returning.  

United Eco-action seeks to buy land to reunite the scattered tribes of the Great Plains through a vast "Wild Bison Preserve."  Help us give back some of what was unjustly taken in dishonorable breach of many treaties from the American Indian. Help us buy back buffalo land to restore American Indian culture.  Land where Tatanka (the buffalo) may roam proud and free once again.  Read on,  dear friend. There is much in all this for your happiness in the joy of restoring a safe future for all Americans.

PRINCESS DIANA AND MOTHER TERESA DID NOT DIE IN VAIN--
 A MEMORIAL

The recent death of two world-beloved women bowed much of humanity for a few days with emotions before the sublime greatness of charity and its fragrance of love as it protects life and peace. The futile agitation of daily life ceased briefly.  Many glimpsed the reality of inevitable death.  Aware of the eternity of the end, some focused on life and joy with a renewed sense of proportions.  Seeking true values. Tasting the glory of being alive.  Rejecting aimless consumerism.  Realists perhaps understood for the first time that love--love alone--justifies the gift of life and that rebirth (however one may understand it) is gained by renouncing selfishness and embracing the happiness of generosity.

REACHING OUT TO YOU WITH OPEN ARMS 

In this spirit United Eco-action Fund (UEF) reaches out to you, our friend, brother or sister, young or old, man or woman, rich or poor, to give to you and to ask from you.  We all belong to the same family living on one small and fragile planet.  

"For the first time in my life I saw the horizon as a curved line.
It was accentuated by a thin seam of dark blue light - our atmosphere.
Obviously, this was not the ocean of air I had been told it was
so many times in my life.
I was terrified by its fragile appearance." Ulf Merhold, German astronaut

UNITED ECO-ACTION'S TASK DEFINED

Grassroots groups initiate most of the major changes to stop environmental degradation worldwide.  People educating people, people acting on the belief that clean water, clean air, and a safe environment are their inalienable right.  From them the greenfire has spread to occupy the minds and influence the policies of people in government.

In the early 1900's, Gifford Pinchot, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture under Theodore Roosevelt, wrote:

"The central thing for which Conservation stands is to make this country the best possible place to live in, both for us and for our descendants...Conservation is the most democratic movement this country has known for a generation. It holds that people have not only the right, but the duty to control the use of natural resources, which are the great sources of prosperity.  And it regards absorption of these resources by special interests...as a moral wrong.  Conservation is the application of common-sense to common problems for the common good." The Fight for Conservation

THE SAME TASK DEFINED BY FIRST AMERICANS

"We did not inherit the earth from our parents.
We are borrowing it from our children." 
Native American saying

Like smoke signals, e-mail is, at best, but a limited exchange between distant members of one tribe.  Sometimes--just sometimes--a few words can lure our senses into sudden awareness. 
 
WHAT EVERYONE TODAY NEEDS TO KNOW

� The relationship between humanity and the earth is now in a state of rapidly increasing disequilibrium, approaching a critical point.  This fact is no longer seriously open to dispute. Misinformation sold by vested interests is forever dispelled by visible events themselves.

� Less than 3% of the earth's water is fresh water, and only a shrinking .01% of that is clean drinkable water--75% of which is used for irrigation. What is left must supply 5.5 billion people. 

� Only 5% of America's original forests remain standing.  

� "The cutting of primeval forest and other disasters, fueled by demands of growing human populations, are the overriding threat to biological diversity everywhere.  But the data that led to this conclusion, coming mainly from vertebrates and plants, understate the case...Patches of rain forest and coral reef harbor tens of thousands of species, even after they have declined to a remnant of the original wilderness.  But when the entire habitat is destroyed, almost all of the species are destroyed.  Not just eagles and pandas disappear but also the smallest, still unclassified invertebrates, algae, and fungi, the invisible players that make up the foundation of the ecosystem." Edward O. Wilson, The Diversity of Life.

�  Quarrying of coral, over fishing, and silting from tropical deforestation have caused extensive damage to almost 50% of earth's coral reefs.

�  Whether in the tropics or temperate zones, forests represent the single most important stabilizing feature of the earth's land surface, and they cushion us from the worst effects --particularly those associated with global warming--of the environmental crisis.

�  If destruction of the rain forest continues at the present rate, by the year 2022 50% of the remaining rain forest will be gone. 

�  The Aral Sea, once the world's fourth largest inland sea, was destroyed by dams and its 25,000 tons annual fish harvest vanished with it.

�  Misplanned California urban sprawl destroyed Owens Lake into an alkaline dustbowl and now threatens destruction of one of the most remarkable desert eco-systems:  Mono Lake.  Since 1941 Mono's level has dropped 41 feet; its shoreline is shrinking; its salts concentrating; its rich and delicate ecosystems failing.

�  The redwood forests once covered an area nearly a 1000 miles long and 100 miles deep on the Pacific Coast. Less than 3% is left, and they are still being cut.

�  The Rhine is the drinking water supply for 20,000,000 people, but on its shores 20% of the world's chemicals are produced, making it the dirtiest river in Europe. 

�  50% of Europe's remaining forests are dying.

�  In 1983 29% of Quebec maple trees were affected by acid rain.  By 1986 the figure was 80%.  Maple syrup may soon be just a memory.

�  The last gentle manatee in Florida are becoming extinct because of habitat loss and propeller kills.   

�  Up to 50,000 northern seals are killed each year by entanglement with plastic fishnets fragments and plastic debris.  

�  Vast acreages of monoculture doused with tons of inorganic fertilizers and pesticides are not sustainable.  Chemical agriculture mines the soil and poisons groundwater.

�  The National Academy of Science, in a report on alternative agriculture, concluded that farms planted with diverse crops can, with little or no chemicals, be as productive and more profitable than farms dependent on chemical pesticides and inorganic fertilizers.  Farmers who started thinking for themselves find it very simple. 

�  "Cancer circles"--regions with abnormally high incidences of the disease--are multiplying in America.  Cancer kills 1 in 4.

�  Waterborne disease kills 25,000,000 people annually, most of them children.

�  Many river dams, financed by The World Bank, are ecological disasters.

�  Of the 119 known pure pharmaceutical compounds used somewhere in the world, 88 were discovered through leads from traditional medicine.  The knowledge of all the world's indigenous cultures, if gathered and catalogued, would constitute a library of Alexandrian proportions.

�  "About four years ago...my older daughter Whitney was very ill with cancer.  She literally came within a few days of death.  She is here today, and she is a beautiful, fourteen-year-old, healthy, completely cured young lady.  Why?  The drug that saved her life was derived from a plant called the rosy periwinkle...a plant native to the island country of Madagascar.  The irony of this story is that 90% of the forest area of Madagascar has been destroyed.  100% of all native habitat of the rosy periwinkle is gone forever."  Jay D. Hair, president, National Wildlife Federation.

For pertinent literature on many other ecological issues, visit UEF's Bookstore:  

SOLUTIONS

"The battle we have fought, and are still fighting
is a part of the eternal conflict between right and wrong..."  John Muir

We must triple the pace of environmental protection to prevent catastrophic events.  Misinformation disseminated by vested interests, ignorance, and apathy are our greatest enemies.  The task is so immense that everyone is duty-bound to help with money, time, or both.

"If nothing else can unite us, the ecological crisis will."  Joseph Campbell

The dimensions of this planetary emergency are truly frightening.  We are at the turning point.  To leave the problem to the next generation would be criminal.  We must not condemn posterity to irretrievable desolation and suffering.  Everyone must learn the facts ASAP so that united we can restore balance.

REFUTING A THEOLOGICAL ERROR

THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE DOES NOT ISSUE A LICENSE TO DESTROY THE EARTH;
"DOMINION" OF GOD'S CREATION MEANS RESPONSIBLE STEWARDSHIP.

The duty to care for the earth is rooted in the fundamental relationship between God, creation, and humankind.  In the Book of Genesis, Judaism first taught that after God created the earth, He "saw that it was good."  In the Twenty-fourth Psalm, we learn that "the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof."  How can one glorify the Creator while heaping contempt on the creation?

THE BIBLE SHOWS GOD'S CONCERN FOR BIODIVERSITY

"But with thee I will establish my covenant... of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.  Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive"   Genesis 6:18-20.  

Therefore, all Christians are duty-bound to actively help restore God's creation.


WHERE THERE IS POVERTY, LAND DEGRADATION FOLLOWS,
CAUSING MORE POVERTY--A VICIOUS CYCLE

Poverty and land degradation are curable in a well-governed technological world.  Poverty can and must be eliminated, while greed must be restrained and limited.  We are all responsible and in debt to the earth for every molecule of our being and for all our possessions.  Therefore, the least we must do is to invest 10% of our time, income, and assets to saving what is left and restoring what we have seriously damaged.

America, being the world's largest consumer, must be first to turn around and lead the planet into environmental balance and a sustainable economy.  If people everywhere consumed as much as the U.S. and Japan do, the planet could support only an additional 200,000,000.

UNITED ECO-ACTION FUND PROGRAMS

I.  CLEVELAND NATIONAL FOREST CONSERVATION FUND:
protecting one of the 18 most threatened regions on the planet
where unique specie are in greatest danger of extinction from human activity
( see UEF website at  )

In the first decade of this century President Theodore Roosevelt mandated protection of Southern California's wilderness by establishing the 2 million-acre Cleveland National Forest.  Since then government allowed 2/3 of this unique ecosystem to be quietly taken by invasive development.  

The Cleveland Forest still shelters one of America's greatest diversity of wildlife.  Majestic stands of cedar and fir bordering fragrant green meadows where scented multi-colored wildflowers bloom in spring and where in autumn live oak set up a blaze of color that flickers over a backdrop of pines.  Foxes bark and deer silently cross fields half hidden in the morning mist.  Golden eagles soar in the blue sky over the bountiful home of mountain lions.  It and other western forests must be saved.

United Eco-action Fund is working to implement the 1993 California voter mandate to protect this spectacular natural resource.  UEF seeks acquisition of privately owned wildlife habitat, and, where possible, the reopening of migration corridors.

II.  RETURN OF THE BUFFALO:
re-establishing the bison to the Great Plains
( visit  )

The National Parks do not suffice as a means of perpetuating the larger carnivores.  The reasons for this are clear...The most feasible way to enlarge the area available for our wilderness fauna is for the wilder parts of the National Forests, which usually surround the Parks, to function as parks in respect to threatened species.  Aldo Leopold, A Sand Country Almanac

A program seeking international funding to create large wildlife preserves in Montana and Dakotas under Amerindian management to shelter and increase the last free buffalo herd being slaughtered by Montana ranchers as the animals migrate out of their Yellowstone Park shelter to escape loud snowmobile traffic.

III.  PRINCESS DIANA-MOTHER TERESA MEMORIAL PROGRAM:
formerly called "The Good Neighbor Program"
( go to:  )

In honor of Princess Diana and saintly Mother Teresa, United Eco-action Fund has renamed its GOOD NEIGHBOR PROGRAM the "Princess Diana and Mother Teresa Memorial Program," so that the love of these great women may continue to produce miracles of generosity toward the poor far into the future and help us save many children and suffering families.  

The original program, dedicated to alleviating the abject poverty of many Mexican children who collect broken glass in disease ridden garbage dumps without medical coverage, is being expanded to reach out as far as human generosity and love will allow. 

AN OPEN APPEAL FOR YOUR HELP

"In the end, we will conserve only what we love, 
we will love only what we understand, 
we will understand only what we are taught."
Senegalese conservationist Baba Dioum

Become part of United Eco-action Fund (UEF), an international grassroots organization, by contributing as a:

FRIEND (any amount)
SUPPORTER ($50)
DONOR ($100)
SPONSOR ($500)
BENEFACTOR ($1000)
PATRON (more than $1,000)

A donation in any amount will award you a place on the "Roster of American Wilderness Heritage Guardians," to be published internationally over the Internet.  All contributions are tax-deductible.

To send donations, use any of the following methods:

(1)	CHECK:  Make check to UNITED ECO-ACTION FUND.  Include your name, address, (e-mail), and phone number.  Mail check to:  United Eco-action Fund, P.O. Box 156, Descanso, CA 91916.

(2)	CREDIT CARD:  E-mail the following information to us at: . 
Credit Card:  Visa  Master Card (please indicate)
Credit Card #:
Expiration Date: 
Credit Card Statement Address and  Zip Code:
State the amount you authorize as a donation to United Eco-action Fund.
The above is treated with absolute confidentiality.  It is safer to use e-mail than the telephone.

(3)	BANK TRANSFER:  Transfer funds from your bank into UEF's bank account at Bank of America, La Mesa Main Office, 5500 Grossmont Center Drive, La Mesa  CA 91942, Account Number:  02310-10250.

(4)	CASH:  If you send cash, please enclose a note stating amount and your address so we may send your tax deductible receipt.  Mail to:  United Eco-action Fund, P.O. Box 156, Descanso, CA 91916.

You can also help further the programs of UEF by ordering books from our Internet Bookstore in association with Amazon.com.  Our bookstore is located at .  A percentage of price of all books ordered here will be donated to UDDERS.

DEFENDERS OF WILDERNESS:

"It does not suffice to have a few such societies [Sierra Club, Wilderness Society], 
nor can one be content that Congress has enacted a bill aimed at wilderness preservation...
A militant minority of wilderness citizens must be on watch 
throughout the nation and vigilantly available for action." Aldo Leopold

We are recruiting like-minded, dedicated individuals and groups to help implement our programs.  To become a spokesmen and volunteer for United Eco-action Fund, please e-mail us at:  .  We urge you to call on others to join you in this important task.

To be an active "Greenwind Friend" and earn an income by collaborating with UEF's international mission, e-mail your name, address, and phone to . 

Visit  and learn more about the most important issue of our time.  

"This point is crucial:  
a choice to 'do nothing' in response to the mounting evidence
is actually a choice to continue and even accelerate 
the reckless environmental destruction that is creating 
the catastrophe at hand.  Vice-President AL Gore

Heart Greetings,


VIKTORIA VIDALI
Executive Director

United Eco-action Fund is a nonprofit, public benefit corporation whose primary mission is to protect wildlife habitat, to fund research, education, and to support programs that benefit the quality of human life by integrating diverse groups nationally and internationally.  UEF is a member of the congressionally created National Forest Foundation and Theodore Roosevelt Association.  Our extensive Internet site  displays the honorable roster of "American Wilderness Heritage Guardians," lists UEF's American and foreign advisors, the management team, and details our programs.  Visit our Internet bookstore in association with the largest book retailer on earth, Amazon. com.













From nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com  Sat Sep 27 11:37:47 1997
From: nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com (nospam-seesignature at ceddec.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:37:47 +0800
Subject: CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <97Sep27.140451edt.32266@brickwall.ceddec.com>



On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [CDT's Jonah Seiger copied this message to my editors. I'm still waiting
> for him to answer my questions. --Declan]

Maybe they can't distinguish Declan as journalist and Declan as online
debate participant (for lack of a better term).  Since I know of nothing
wrong with your reporting, either in accuracy, or in usefullness your
editors should know this and I would hope they would keep you on. 

If there is a cardinal virtue for a journalist it is to have active
opinions, but to keep them out when assigned to report facts.  But in
other venues, they should be free to express those opinions.

The original post appeared not to be from Declan in his capacity as a
journalist (he is free to correct me).  I assume that if it was part of
his assignment to ask this, he would have called.

> If you are curious about what it is about your style that bothers CDT so
> much, start with this hostile, accusitory message posted to a public list
> (in this case, cypherpunks).
> 
> This message is not a question -- it's an attack.  It assumes the answer
> before it's asked, and it's nothing more than read meat thrown to a hungry
> crowd.
> 
> If you have questions about how we set up the site, or how we feel about
> the results of Wednesday's Commerce Committee vote, all you have to do is
> contact us.  We will be happy to talk to you.  This is the way every other
> journalist we work with operates.

I have seen far worse attacks (literal, not simply asking hard questions)
by other participants here, as well as defenses.  I don't see the CDT
calling their employers or customers and complaining or praising. 

I too am interested in the answers to the questions.  I don't think
Markey-White is good (I see nothing intrinsically pro-privacy), but I
don't think it is a disaster unless it is simply the first step toward
Oxley or something as bad.  It is controversial, so to label it
pro-privacy or pro-censorship requires at least a defense of the position
- and I have heard Declan's side and tend to agree with him.

And the answers are important.  If the CDT thinks that Markey-White is a
useful compromise (i.e. they value lifting the export ban more than the
problems with the extra rules), they should say so, but that is different
from saying that Markey-White is pro-privacy.






From jim at acm.org  Sat Sep 27 12:20:14 1997
From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 03:20:14 +0800
Subject: Why the White amendment is a good idea
Message-ID: <342D576A.15CBE15C@acm.org>



Declan wrote:
> First, the NETcenter was sold to the Commerce cmte yesterday as a way to
> perform successful cryptanalysis on enciphered documents. The rhetoric was
> all about keeping codebreakers up to date with codemakers. To anyone with
> a glimmering of a clue about modern cryptography, this is complete
> bullshit. Industry lobbyists on Monday also tried to push this line at a
> press conference; I called them on it and they said, no, I was wrong, this
> center would let the FBI keep up with the times. Yeah right.

While a cryppie center wouldn't help the FBI keep up with strong
cryptography used well, they would find it very useful in dealing
with weak cryptography and with strong cryptography used bozotically.

The recent Denning and Baugh study on how much harm crypto has done to
law enforcement investigations points this out strongly.  They found
that crypto has not in fact prevented successful investigation and
prosecution.  They did encounter crypto, and in each case they were
either able to break it (because it's cheesy McCrypto Wordmaster kid
crypto), or they were able to find the keywords or plaintext somewhere
in the perp's house or computers.

Until we have serious seamless apps, there will be plenty of chances
for law enforcement to get at the plaintext one way or another.  Do
you use your super-4096-bit-RSA-key-international PGP under Windows?
If so, do you disable and wipe your swap file?  Do you use it under
Linux?  If so, do you even know where your swap file is?  The FBI
with a competent cryppie center would.

Just because they couldn't break the good stuff doesn't mean they
couldn't successfully support the vast majority of law enforcement
investigations.

Whether this means it should or shouldn't be implemented is another
question -- perhaps it would serve as a spur to people to use their
tools more sensibly, as well as giving the FBI something more useful
to do than spending public money lobbying Congress.
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Mersday, 6 Winterfilth S.R. 1997, 18:45
	12.19.4.9.14, 2 Ix 12 Chen, Fifth Lord of Night






From sandy at storm.ca  Sat Sep 27 13:01:45 1997
From: sandy at storm.ca (Sandy Harris)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:01:45 +0800
Subject: T-shirts (was Re: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers)
Message-ID: <199709271951.PAA25605@mail.storm.ca>




> Many of you have seen my "D.A.R.E." t-shirt that I wear occasionally to
Bay
> Area parties and events. For those who haven't:
> 
> 
> (in large red letters)        D.A.R.E.
> 
>                             I turned in my parents
>                                and all I got was this
>                                     stupid t-shirt
> 

ROFL!
Burroughs suggested "Drug hysteria: just say no!"

Anyone care to make some up with:

        Escrowed encryption: just say no!






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sat Sep 27 13:19:24 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:19:24 +0800
Subject: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <05gPDe4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>



Tim May  writes:
> Several years ago on the Extropians list I expressed my desire to get a
> t-shirt made up with a provocative slogan, "D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality
> Enhancers," to wear to public events so as to tweak the noses of the Drug
> Warriors and the parents who form the Just Say No Brigade of Reserve
> Forces. Kennita Watson sent me a t-shirt decal with this on it, to put on a
> t-shirt. Someday maybe I will.

Quasi-crypto-related: my wife's wants to buy a color printer.  Is it hard to
make transfers(?) that one can iron on a blank T-shirt? Do they last? Are some
color printers better than others? Hey, maybe I'll make some cool T-shirts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From pooh at efga.org  Sat Sep 27 13:23:57 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:23:57 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <518a11cd897fab49c5c65badb848d348@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927160912.00739300@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 01:19 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>No, the nym servers differ in two important ways.
>
>1. They use a reply block so your true identity lies encrypted beneath
>the public keys of several remailers.  I would rather the message went
>to alt.anonymous.messages.

This is an interesting idea.  I'm going to forward it to the
remailer-politics list and see what people there think of the idea.

>Also, by my reading of the "uptime" statistic in Raph's remailer
>chart, a reply block is not going to be very reliable for receiving
>mail.

The Redneck remailer, for instance, has a 99+% uptime rate.  The reason for
this being high is that it is run under a business model.  The connectivity
basically cannot go down.  There has only been 23 minutes of connectivity
downtime in the last year.  Redneck is run on a business quality network
with multiple backbone feeds.  But things break down after that.  Redneck
also runs on an underpowered 486 with no "hotfix" backup machine.  It is
not considered to be a mission critical piece of equipment.  I might notice
Redneck have a problem at 1:00 am, but it can wait until in the morning to
get fixed.  Situations like this, combined with software upgrades account
for downtime.

Back to your question of latency, the actual latency on Redneck is about
six seconds if chaining is not used.  This is "high" because the remailer
runs on an underpowered machine.  If the machine is not doing its thing for
any length of time, then the figure will go up dramatically, which is why
you see the two minute latency now.  Cracker however is *designed* to have
additional latency.  The figure shown is twenty something minutes, but
actual latency of an individual message cannot be determined. Conceivably,
it could be much higher or lower on any given message.  The latency could
be under 60 seconds during a busy time, or could be hours during a slow time.

>2. The nym servers advertise that the accounts are nyms through the
>choice of domain names.  So, presumably, people will respond with the
>same hostility that they respond to any other anonymous message. 
>I presume the remailer operators want to minimize the number of times
>somebody is defrauded through an anonymous account.

This is similar to the AOL effect.  It is often hard to have respect for an
unknown poster from AOL.  The remailer at EFGA is new.  I've come to
realize that this natural hostility towards a remailer is a good reason to
put the remailer on a separate domain.  We might do this.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From die at pig.die.com  Sat Sep 27 13:29:56 1997
From: die at pig.die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:29:56 +0800
Subject: The Telcos oppose Oxley
In-Reply-To: <199709252153.OAA22703@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <199709272009.QAA32068@pig.die.com>



Eric Blossom wrote :

> 
> Beepers are also nice for people who like to be reachable but don't
> care for "Location Escrow".  Many of us carry cell phones, but don't
> keep them powered up.
> 

	Be careful, very careful,  The latest technology in beepers is
uses a two way paging protocol called REFLEX, and the beeper does indeed
log into a "cell"  from which a crude postion determination can be made.
The cells are larger than cellphone cells, and there is no government
mandate to implement triangulation technology to locate beepers within
the cell more precisely "for enhanced 911 service" (yet), but it is very
possible to send a two way pager a "ping" and get it to transmit
allowing dfing of the pager location.   

	This type of pager is advertised as having guaranteed message
delivery "never miss your messages", as well as message reply capability.
Eventually they will become quite common, as existing pager channels are
clogged with traffic broadcast over a wide area even though the target
pager is only near one transmitter and not all of them - they allow
much more efficient use of the rf spectrum as well as guaranteed delivery
of messages.

> Eric
> 


-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 27 13:43:24 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 04:43:24 +0800
Subject: Future reading ??
In-Reply-To: <342C7BD7.AB1DDE6E@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927125017.0068a23c@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 01:21 PM 09/27/1997 +1000, jason wrote:
>Hi all,
>can anybody suggest any good books on cryptanalysis (or papers etc).
>I've read most of Applied Cryptography. What would be a good next step,
>reading wise ??

A few directions
- to put perspective on what you can do with crypto, read Tim May's 
	Cyphernomicon, which is out on the net
- find where to get the proceedings from the various cryptography conferences
	Eurocrypt, Asiacrypt, Crypto, etc.
- look at Schneier's bibliography for papers on the topics you found
	interesting in the book
- How much math do you do?  Group theory?  Prime number stuff?
	You'll need to know this to get very deep at all,
	and often to know what people are talking about, especially
	with the elliptic curve stuff.  Find some books on that
	if you don't already know it.
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 27 15:39:34 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:39:34 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 03:18 AM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>>
>>The brutally simple way to do this would be to generate an ecash
>>certificate, made out to cash, and tack it at the beginning of a
>>message which is then encrypted for the remailer.
>
>The answer to your question may be to first recast your questions and
>ask why would someone want to attach ecash?  I assume you are trying
>to "pay" for the email you send.  This goes against the general model
>of the internet.

We are solving a different problem.

The reason I want to attach ecash is to get good reliable service and
to encourage many other people to offer good high quality remailing
services.  Let's a remailer operator can make $200/month by handling
messages at 25 cents each.  (That's 800 messages a month, hardly
overwhelming.)

You might not go public on that much revenue, but you might use your
desktop machine as a remailer.

>Unlike the phone company, the net peers freely with no
>interconnection charges, so inter lata charges do not have to be
>tracked and collected.  This allows for a flat rate pricing scheme.
>For remailers, this flat rate is generally zero dollars, i.e. free.

Free usually doesn't work very well, and it isn't working well now.

Use of ecash in the remailer network means there is no tracking and
collecting or a final bill.  This would somewhat defeat the purpose of
using remailers, would it not?

>There are remailers of various types who offer services for a charge
>of some sort.  This is generally a flat rate fee, either per month,
>or per year.

Really?  How does this work?  (And which remailers offer these services?)

If implemented naively, each message must carry some sort of
identifier.  Even if the owner of the account isn't known, all of his
messages are easily linked.  This is undesirable.

A more sophisticated implementation would use something like blinded
credentials.  But, that's the functionality ecash provides anwyay,
right now, this day, without any work.  So why not leverage off it and
take advantage of the payment features as well?

>There is likely no desire to price on a per item basis.  If there
>were, I would think it would be in the millicent range of pricing.

Given the existing infrastructure, per item pricing is the easiest to
implement while retaining full anonymity.  Digicash and Mark Twain
Bank already did the hard work!  They already have a bank set up!

All we have to do is make use of it.

As for millicent pricing, we'll see.  Once things get rolling, the
price should fall below a quarter.  But it will have to be high enough
to make running a remailer worth the trouble.

There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.

Here's another reason why this is important to cypherpunks.  We would
really like to see wider use of e-cash.  It is a great product and it
respects our privacy.

The way ecash will catch on is that a small group of people will start
using it regularly for services and trade within their loosely defined
community.  Once things start rolling, more people and services can be
added.  Once things catch on, they will snowball.

The place to start is in this group with the remailers.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 27 16:05:26 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:05:26 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks-e@htp.org list explodes! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709272310.SAA06706@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:27:04 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart 
> Subject: cypherpunks-e at htp.org list explodes!

> Well, I tried subscribing to cypherpunks-e at htp.org, the English-language
> relative of cypherpunks-j.  There may have been one or two independent
> postings,
> but almost everything there was just the main cypherpunks list, forwarded
> and with archiving numbers stuck in the Subject: line.
> That wasn't a very good idea; people who want to subscribe to cypherpunks
> should do so directly, but if you do want to build a fourth list address
> for cypherpunks, you can check with Igor Chudov and Lance Cottrell about
> the software
> that makes it work without looping.

First, it was meant as another member of the cpunks distributed list.

Second, I provided them with the necessary anti-loop information.

Third, they were out because SSZ was out. It's a real pitty the other
list operators don't put more effort into ensuring cross connections
since the anti-loop process does seem to work.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|







From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 27 16:29:13 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:29:13 +0800
Subject: Remailer Ecash Bounty
Message-ID: <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I, Monty Cantsin, will pay fifty dollars to the first operator of a
remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which accepts
ecash as payment to forward a message.

Offer expires October 27, 1997 C.E.

Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 27 16:29:30 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:29:30 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <32a47212ab68bda3923a472826c01e98@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>[Tim May wrote: ed.]
>> Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
>> Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.
>
>And there are a couple of problems with this:
>
> -  it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with
>    other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add
>    don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism.

Ecash is in place right now.

> -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
>    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
>    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00?

This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
customer.  Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00.  As a
customer, I would not see this as unreasonable.

>    What about intermediate remailers and their desire to get a cut
>    of the pie?

Each hop should charge, of course.  They are all providing the same
service.

>I suspect that anon remailers will operate by something similar to
>ISP's where when the account is setup some fee is paid for use and
>not on a use by use based fee. The problem with that is it creates a
>'concrete' link between the party desiring anonymity and the remailer
>operator that may be exploited in some (most? all?) cases to break
>that anonymity.

The way to break the concrete link is with blinded credentials.  Of
course, ecash already provides this feature without the hassle of
opening an account with a remailer operator, writing and deploying new
software, etc. etc.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From anon at anon.efga.org  Sat Sep 27 17:03:30 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:03:30 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <5b2ff18d32f6e69b9daafc8470b65133@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>>Also, by my reading of the "uptime" statistic in Raph's remailer
>>chart, a reply block is not going to be very reliable for receiving
>>mail.
>
>The Redneck remailer, for instance, has a 99+% uptime rate.  The
>reason for this being high is that it is run under a business model.
>The connectivity basically cannot go down.  There has only been 23
>minutes of connectivity downtime in the last year.  Redneck is run on
>a business quality network with multiple backbone feeds.  But things
>break down after that.  Redneck also runs on an underpowered 486 with
>no "hotfix" backup machine.  It is not considered to be a mission
>critical piece of equipment.  I might notice Redneck have a problem
>at 1:00 am, but it can wait until in the morning to get fixed.
>Situations like this, combined with software upgrades account for
>downtime.

Thank you for this detailed description.

One more question: When redneck is down, do other remailers discard
their mail if they cannot connect to it?

If this is the case, it would seem to be a serious design flaw,
probably prompted by the desire to save disk space.  A quarter per
message would probably cover the cost.

Another general comment on remailer statistics: 99+% uptime sounds
good, but really it isn't.  For some reason, we are accustomed to the
idea that remailers should lose messages.  Well, they shouldn't.  A
remailer is just electronic mail with a few extra features and
electronic mail is exceptionally reliable.

According to Raph, redneck has an uptime of 99.83%.  By my
understanding, this means for every 1000 messages handled, redneck
loses 17.  That's actually pretty high, especially if it's your
message that gets lost.

I do not mean to pick on redneck in particular, or, really, any of the
remailers.  But where the remailer network stands right now, it cannot
be used for everyday mail which cuts down its usage quite a bit and
makes it a lot harder to build nifty things on top of it like reply
block systems.

>This is similar to the AOL effect.  It is often hard to have respect
>for an unknown poster from AOL.  The remailer at EFGA is new.  I've
>come to realize that this natural hostility towards a remailer is a
>good reason to put the remailer on a separate domain.  We might do
>this.

Ideally the domain would be shared by other non-anonymous users, but
hostility would probably be reduced even if the domain were something
like "guest.efga.org", even if many people knew that really meant
"anonymous".

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Sep 27 17:03:30 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:03:30 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709272343.BAA13628@basement.replay.com>



See also the CDA.  Yes, parts are still in effect, including provisions giving
immunity to interactive services if material was provided by someone
else.  Conceivably this could apply to remailers, if they could call themselves
interactive services.  Certainly the material they send was not provided by
them.






From attila at hun.org  Sat Sep 27 17:16:05 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:16:05 +0800
Subject: PARTY!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709280010.SAA16517@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    you forgot one important event for 18 Oct:

        my #3 ex-wife's birthday in 1952
        
        in one of her former lives she was Anne Bolyn

        unfortunately, Henry VIII had privileges I do not.

 --
 "When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates. 
     For once, let him clean up after me! " 
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: latin1
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Sep 27 17:30:38 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:30:38 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <98686f498b8ccb27fd4ca5d615f6710e@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Steve Schear wrote:
>>At 3:18 AM -0400 9/27/97, Anonymous (sic) wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
>>>(This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
>>>software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
>>>sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)
>>
>>One item which has been missing is an accessible API. (The Digicash
>>merchant software is, I believe, designed for online use only.)  This
>>need is about to be fulfilled.
>
>Digicash has software for Unix platforms which one could very easily
>call from a Perl script.  Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't be
>ideal, but it would work and should be easy to incorporate into many
>of the remailers.  (I think.)

True, but then the remailer's income would be available to LE, since payee
anonymity isn't supported by DC.  Accountless operation is by far a better
alternative for some business.

--Steve







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Sat Sep 27 17:31:15 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:31:15 +0800
Subject: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
In-Reply-To: <199709262107.RAA17847@u1.farm.idt.net>
Message-ID: <199709272356.AAA00422@server.test.net>




Jay Holovacs  writes:
> [dangers of horseman spin or reichstag fire tatics from Free & gang]
> 
> On the other hand a publicized security disaster or "infowar" attack
> could spin things in the other direction.

Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.

So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
that the lack of crypto is dangerous.

Stuff internet protocols at low level (say DNS) due to lack of crypto
and too centralised design?  We could do that I think.  The guy from
alternic rigged DNS root to point at him, we could rig it to point to
zip.

In the clear or poorly ciphered banking protocols (say private leased
lines).

etc.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: <199709280019.BAA00445@server.test.net>




Monty Cantsin writes:
> Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash?
> (This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer
> software.  I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet"
> sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.)

I think someone did write the code.  I think it was Sameer, and I
think he ran a remailer with this feature for a while.  I expect the
code is on the berkeley ftp site somewhere.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
Message-ID: 



>The answer to your question may be to first recast your questions and ask
>why would someone want to attach ecash?  I assume you are trying to "pay"
>for the email you send.  This goes against the general model of the
>internet.  Unlike the phone company, the net peers freely with no
>interconnection charges, so inter lata charges do not have to be tracked
>and collected.  This allows for a flat rate pricing scheme.  For remailers,
>this flat rate is generally zero dollars, i.e. free.

You get what you pay for.

>
>There are remailers of various types who offer services for a charge of
>some sort.  This is generally a flat rate fee, either per month, or per
>year.  There is likely no desire to price on a per item basis.  If there
>were, I would think it would be in the millicent range of pricing.

When remail use is casual and protects rather innocuous content then little
if any can be charged.  When content and identity protection is important
to the sender than a larger, but probably still small amount is fair.  I
would be willing to spend a few cents for each hop from reliable remailers.

>
>If I were to set up a for pay remailing system, I would prefer to have a
>per month, or per year fee.  This is more for the nym model of remailer.  I
>assume you mean the Type-I such as you are using now.  It would be
>interesting to setup as a test, but I don't see there would be any market
>for it.

In business, one can never tell if there's a market until the product or
service reaches sufficient audience.  Some of the most successful products
(e.g., Sony's Walkman and the Internet) were roundly rejected by industry
pundits and marketeers prior to introduction.

--Steve







From Syniker at aol.com  Sat Sep 27 17:41:18 1997
From: Syniker at aol.com (Syniker at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:41:18 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <970927202108_-295887685@emout10.mail.aol.com>



>>If remailers are going to work as a business we can't turn our back on
traditional payment mechanisms. The problem, as I see it, is that there is
no clear mechanism for me to write a normal check and have that turn
into a anon account easily without involving 3rd parties and their
concommittent extra costs - further increasing the end-user cost to do
business. There better be a reason or they won't pay for long.>>

I'm probably not thinking right Jim -- but what if I bought a postal
money order, or such, with cash... sent it too you... along with
an encyrpted email that referred to the serial number of the
money order... then, you uncyphered my email... to verify payment, and
recyphered my account info to me...
Would something like that work to establish a paid-up account?

Best to you... LarryM
pgp pubkey@ http://www.jetlink.net/~aargh/






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Sep 27 17:46:26 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:46:26 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
> in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
> an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
> Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
> corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
> easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
> time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.

There are a number of technical reasons why you really don't want to call
the standard commandline Ecash client from a script to add/retrieve Ecash
from Mixmaster remailer packets. The biggest problem being that you can
fit only a few coins into the packet header as specified. There is
no feature in the standard Ecash client that allows coin level
control. DigiCash firmly resited and continues to resist adding it. A
$0.25 payment could be paid as three coins or as 25 coins. The user has no
control over this. For this and a number of other reasons, DigiCash's
software is unsuitable for the task.

You certainly could use DigiCash's software with Type 1 remailers. Though
why anybody would want to pay for a service as insecure as Type 1
remailers is beyond me. Type 1 remailers should be removed from service.

Furthermore, the barrier to entry is too high for the consumer. All these
problems are about to be solved by third party software. Perhaps then we
will see for-pay remailers.



 -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sat Sep 27 17:52:03 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:52:03 +0800
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709280025.CAA20106@basement.replay.com>




Paul "Fatman" Bradley writes :

> I`ll be off the list again for a while, and this address may well be 
> closed, not sure yet. 

We didn't miss you, you going reduced the noise level.  Glad to see
you're going again.

> If anyone needs to get me +44 (0)410 933621 is always a good one to
> try,

I can't imagine that anyone on this list will be calling you?
Delusions of self importance?

> I should be back on the list within a few weeks though.

Don't hurry back!

> Bye for now.

bye!

Anon






From gmd at earthling.net  Sat Sep 27 18:20:13 1997
From: gmd at earthling.net (gmd at earthling.net)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:20:13 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199709280051.CAA09931@mail.force9.net>




The empire never ended. The black iron prison is still with us.

Aramchek.






From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Sep 27 18:51:47 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:51:47 +0800
Subject: FBI Technical Assistance Draft
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970928012759.008da630@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Willis Ware we offer the full text of the
FBI's August 28 "technical assistance draft" for encryption
legislation, a few paragraphs of which Declan posted here:

   http://jya.com/fbi-tad-s909.htm  (57K)

Although prepared to revise McCain/Kerrey's S 909 to satisfy 
law enforcement, it's the source for the various amendments 
to SAFE which copied much of it unchanged, and some portions
not yet lifted may foretell what's coming.







From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Sat Sep 27 19:01:33 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:01:33 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Anonymous (nee Monty Cantsin) wrote:

> Good point.  Also, using a dialup gives you another layer of physical
> privacy.  You could even move the machine around from time to time.
It has been :-)

> What is on your machine that has to be deleted?  I suppose you'd want
> to power cycle it since the private key (or a passphrase) will be
> sitting in memory.  Is there anything on the disk that must be
> deleted?
I would feel better, and I'm sure a lot of others would too, if I had the
time to safely wipe the remailer's private key (in addition to cleaning the
passphrase from memory). Ditto for my personal keys :)

> More operations questions: according to Raph's chart, your machine has
> an "uptime" of 99.64%.  I assume that means Raph's experiments showed
> that 36 messages out of 1000 disappeared.  Did I assume correctly?
More or less. 

> If so, what accounts for these message losses?  I would expect that if
> your machine was down, even for a couple of days, that the incoming
> messages would be queued up on other machines and none would be lost.
It's more like "of the last 1000 messages sent, 9964 of 'em have made it back
to me."  Because of the way I have to have things set up, there are almost
always a few messages in transit. I have, very occasionally, actually seen my
remailer listed at 100%; somewhere over 99% is far more common.

> BTW, my intention is not be critical of your volunteer work running a
> remailer, but to develop an understanding of the issues involved.
Excellent. You certainly can't be faulted for that :)

> Even a response like "the machine was down for three days because I
> was in Las Vegas partying" is useful because it would suggest that
> remailer operators are not adequately compensated for their work.
I thought that much was a given.  AFAIK nobody's making any money anywhere
off the remailer net; it's a labour of love.

To contribute to another thread at the same time: there is a
semi-experimental hack for Mixmaster that parses a message for hashcash.

IMO, it's unlikely that hashcash, Digicash, or anything else is likely to
become the preeminent modus operandi for remailer operators anytime soon, but
it's likely to happen eventually simply because it's possible, so someone
will do it. For me, the remailer doesn't consume any exceptional new
resources, so the added cost to me of running a remailer is very nearly zero.
(Those are mostly the "administrative" costs of dealing with complaints,
adding people to the blocklist, and cleaning up after the occasional spam
bomb.)  Others, with different circumstances, may be more eager to pursue a
profit-making solution.

dave (bureau42 admin)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

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=EG5C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From pooh at efga.org  Sat Sep 27 19:10:40 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:10:40 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <5b2ff18d32f6e69b9daafc8470b65133@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927215256.032fa804@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 08:03 PM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>One more question: When redneck is down, do other remailers discard
>their mail if they cannot connect to it?
...
>According to Raph, redneck has an uptime of 99.83%.  By my
>understanding, this means for every 1000 messages handled, redneck
>loses 17.

For a variety of reasons, mail is never "lost" to Redneck because of
downtime.  Only if the Redneck remailer is unreachable for a period of say
five days (it really depends on the sender's ISP) will a message get lost.
Then it will be attempted to be returned to the sender, by the Sender's
ISP's machine, not redneck.  In a case where Redneck is too busy too often,
or for some other reason, the sender's ISP's equipment will resend the
message to Redneck dozens or hundreds of times until the message goes
through.  The downtime statistic is more an indication of when email has to
be sent more than once to get to Redneck.  Apparently this is 17 out of
1,000 messages on the average.  To be honest, I don't really know how the
stats program works, I'm just assuming this is what is being checked.

>For some reason, we are accustomed to the
>idea that remailers should lose messages.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  A properly run remailer doesn't lose
messages.  There may be criteria that triggers a remailer to discard a
message, but a message never gets lost.

Did I open up a can of worms by saying that?  Policies will vary from
remailer to remailer.  Some items that might get discarded (or might not)
would be things such as 

  Mail from cyberpromo.com
  A 300MB email bomb
  6,000 identical messages to the same address
  A message to a particular newsgroup
  Mail to someone who has requested to be blocked

Remailers support free speech, but some mild restraints are placed to aid
in preventing abuse.  If you are talking about setting up a remailer as a
business then as a business there would be policies of what did or did not
go through.

You asked earlier which remailers charge for services.  I'm really not
sure.  Check www.cyberpass.com.  I believe they offer anonymous accounts
and accept Ecash.  


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Sep 27 19:21:10 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:21:10 +0800
Subject: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199709280149.SAA26347@proxy3.ba.best.com>



Tim May wrote:
>>I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
>>and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
>>information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.

At 04:27 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
> A presentation from you at FC98 would remind everyone of your own initial
> writings on the subject and provide you with due credit (better credit than
> a jail/rotting sentence).   I can't think of anyone else who would be more
> qualified for this.

Freedom of speech is protected by nothing stronger than the cluelessness
of our masters.

If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.

If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.

I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
that even cops and politicians start to understand them.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From unicorn at schloss.li  Sat Sep 27 19:29:36 1997
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:29:36 +0800
Subject: write up AP for FC++
In-Reply-To: <199709280149.SAA26347@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970927210451.006b202c@schloss.li>



At 06:49 PM 9/27/97 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>>I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
>>>and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
>>>information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.
>
>At 04:27 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>> A presentation from you at FC98 would remind everyone of your own initial
>> writings on the subject and provide you with due credit (better credit than
>> a jail/rotting sentence).   I can't think of anyone else who would be more
>> qualified for this.
>
>Freedom of speech is protected by nothing stronger than the cluelessness
>of our masters.
>
>If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.
>
>If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
>and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.
>
>I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
>that even cops and politicians start to understand them.


Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only semi-related to
his AP ranting.

The AP ranting is just the way he managed to attract attention.

Moral:  If you're going to rant about AP you better be squeeky clean first.






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sat Sep 27 22:01:40 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:01:40 +0800
Subject: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
Message-ID: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>



On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk] wrote:

> Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> 
> So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> that the lack of crypto is dangerous.

I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.

There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
jail sentences.

More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now 
there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
I would say.

I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible 
for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I 
really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
look to make that person serve jail time.


		Phill






From azur at netcom.com  Sat Sep 27 23:12:57 1997
From: azur at netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:12:57 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



>There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
>in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
>an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
>Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
>corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
>easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
>time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.
>

The only way ecash is likely to catch on is if there's something useful to
purchase with it.  Remailers are a great way to create that opportunity,
fisrt with CP and then with the wider Net community.

>
>The way ecash will catch on is that a small group of people will start
>using it regularly for services and trade within their loosely defined
>community.  Once things start rolling, more people and services can be
>added.  Once things catch on, they will snowball.

Just like PGP.

>
>The place to start is in this group with the remailers.

Yes, and with client SW.  The main technical reason remailers aren't in
general use is a lack of simple to use, uniform feature, remailer clients
(yes, I know about Private Idaho).  This would best be either plug-ins for
the many email clients, but simpler yet a browser applet so any platform
can use use it and no explicit download is needed.  Such an applet has been
prototyped by Geoff Keating and is online, needing mainly Type II and ecash
support.  There might even be a hybrid step to create an adaptor plug-in
connected to the browser applet (if the sandbox permits this
intercommunication).  In any case, Java is definitely the way to go for
client SW.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  	http://www.pgp.com and
				http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur at netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------







From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sat Sep 27 23:36:25 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:36:25 +0800
Subject: D.A.R.E.--Drugs Are Reality Enhancers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709280621.BAA05069@manifold.algebra.com>



Tim May wrote:
> (in large red letters)   D.A.R.E.
> 
>                             I turned in my parents
>                                and all I got was this
>                                     stupid t-shirt

I wonder what is a good place -- in realspace of through the internet --
to look for funny bumperstickers or t shirts of similar kind.

Thank you.

	- Igor.






From pooh at efga.org  Sun Sep 28 00:15:24 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:15:24 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <8f6805d079d5185626e98fff7b367aea@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970928031127.030c67e4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 06:38 PM 9/27/97 -0400, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>The reason I want to attach ecash is to get good reliable service and
>to encourage many other people to offer good high quality remailing
>services.  Let's a remailer operator can make $200/month by handling
>messages at 25 cents each.  (That's 800 messages a month, hardly
>overwhelming.)

Let's assume you want to setup a remailer for profit.  You could use a
spare machine on your desktop and share a phone line part time by using a
PPP connection.  But I take it this is not what you are suggesting.  I'm
assuming you want a commercial quality service.  You'll need a machine,
colocation space, UPS power, a router to separate from the rest of the
internal network, a  phone line for complaints and administration, a domain
name, and a person who can do programming, server administration, and
administrative work, perhaps 20 hours per week.

	Machine	$2,500
	Router		   800
	Domain		   100
	              ------
Startup costs        $3,400

	Colocation	$  700
	Phone line	    45
	Salary		 3,750
                     ------
Recurring costs	$4,495 x 12 months =	$53,940
Fixed costs					$ 3,400
						
This makes an estimated business cost of $57,340 for one year, or $4,778
per month, or about $159 per day.  based on 4,000 messages per day that
gives a base cost per message of less than 4 cents.  Actual operation costs
would be higher, but even at triple that price, if there is a demand for
the service (which I have my doubts) the 25 cent price would make a profit.

>Free usually doesn't work very well, and it isn't working well now.

What about the free system does not seem to work well?  A free remailer's
lifespan even if shut down after a few months or a couple of years does not
seem to be to much different from that of any other startup business.
4,000 messages per day on the cracker remailer is not based on the
machine's capacity, but is based on actual total worldwide demand today.
(at least this is about the highest per day count that cracker has had)
I'd be interested in how you think any full time remailer like the Cracker
service is inadequate and how making it a pay service would resolve this.

>Given the existing infrastructure, per item pricing is the easiest to
>implement while retaining full anonymity.  Digicash and Mark Twain
>Bank already did the hard work!  They already have a bank set up!

I'll admit that I really have not used DigiCash.  Maybe someone here can
tell me some experiences with it.  I found two problems.  Last I checked,
the bank account reuired to have digicash had a service fee of about $10
per month.  Secondly, when I participated in the cybercash trials, I
changed ISPs and was never able to get my money transferred from the old
email account to the new one.  Their customer service wasn't able to help
me get it done.  Can anyone else tell me about better experiences with ecash?




  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From blancw at cnw.com  Sun Sep 28 01:39:22 1997
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:39:22 +0800
Subject: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970928013120.006b0120@cnw.com>



More than a month later, James A. Donald responded:

>I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
>that even cops and politicians start to understand them.
.........................................................


I dont' think where you publish your idea makes as much difference as in
how you present it, based on what attitude and inclinations you reveal
about your motives for the future.

If you are having an abstract discussion which explores the ramifications
of what a new technology makes possible - not only for the good, but for
the bad - it is surely distinguishable from a discussion on who exactly you
dislike and how precisely you are going to hurt them badly with your new,
advanced weapon-tools.

One type of discussion could reveal your perspective and the scope of your
ability to follow ideas to their logical conclusions.  A different
discussion, conversely, could reveal your psychological problems and the
malfunctioning of a disturbed imagination.

Anyone who studies ideas seriously will want to explain their discoveries
to colleagues; it's almost a given that this is so.   I wasn't suggesting
to Tim that he reiterate himself to clueless public authorities for the
purpose of elevating their understanding (although it is a fact that Tim
very often has explained, again and again, the same ideas which he has
posted in the past, until lately he has arrived at the point of merely
referencing himself and his previous contributions to the list.).    I was
making reference to the mistake certain people are making, as he mentioned,
of attributing to Jim Bell the origin of the AP ideas, when Tim's own
extensive exploration of this subject preceded Jim's epiphanies by years.
I was encouraging Tim that presenting his ideas to a physical gathering of
people who are of the mind to consider the impact of these possibilities
upon their business enterprises, would contribute to clarifying the
situation (to some degree - I can't say how or what kind of effect it would
actually have, obviously).

But anyway, James, don't you think it is better to live in an atmosphere of
people who have a clue, rather than otherwise, regardless of their position
in this contradictory world?   

    ..
Blanc






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From: sales at thebestcoffee.com (sales at thebestcoffee.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:24:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Estate Grown Coffee For Less !!!
Message-ID: 




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in the subject field to remove at thebestcoffee.com










From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 28 06:53:10 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:53:10 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709281355.IAA08380@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:18:01 -0400
> From: Anonymous 
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >[Tim May wrote: ed.]
> >> Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much.
> >> Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on.
> >
> >And there are a couple of problems with this:
> >
> > -  it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with
> >    other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add
> >    don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism.
> 
> Ecash is in place right now.

True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which will
dominate and be used by all parties. Also there is the issue of security in
regards to maintaning anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties
to use. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the
action.

> > -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
> >    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
> >    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00?
> 
> This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
> customer.

How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the customer
contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic, thus opening up
N opportunities for anonymity cracking.

If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a
anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes?

> Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00.  As a
> customer, I would not see this as unreasonable.

Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to send
an email around. The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for
handling physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.
Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
Internet infrastructure for nearly free. Because of the historicaly low cost
for email this would tend to in general indicate a low market value on anon
remailers. This means the cost per msg. must be very low (the aforementioned
micro payments) and hence leads to two realizations:

 -   we need a lot of remailers

 -   we need a lot of traffic to invoke economy of scales

It is clear that neither of these can exist without the other, meaning this
puts us at a chicken-or-the-egg type situation.

> >I suspect that anon remailers will operate by something similar to
> >ISP's where when the account is setup some fee is paid for use and
> >not on a use by use based fee. The problem with that is it creates a
> >'concrete' link between the party desiring anonymity and the remailer
> >operator that may be exploited in some (most? all?) cases to break
> >that anonymity.
> 
> The way to break the concrete link is with blinded credentials.  Of
> course, ecash already provides this feature without the hassle of
> opening an account with a remailer operator, writing and deploying new
> software, etc. etc.

True, but it doesn't have the rest of the infrastructure (some detailed
above) in place. To get this to work will take more than a couple dozen
operators swapping some digi-cash between themselves. There are entirely too
many infrastructure and legal issues for remailers to be any sort of
profitable long-term business that will attract non-techie investors.

If you know of some investors please let them know of me as I am very 
interested in commercial remailers (anon & not).

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 28 07:08:27 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:08:27 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709281411.JAA08433@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: Syniker at aol.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:21:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> I'm probably not thinking right Jim -- but what if I bought a postal
> money order, or such, with cash... sent it too you... along with
> an encyrpted email that referred to the serial number of the
> money order... then, you uncyphered my email... to verify payment, and
> recyphered my account info to me...
> Would something like that work to establish a paid-up account?

It would provided nobody was really concerned about tracking you. Let's
consider your scenario for a moment ...

Process:

1.   purchase M.O. with cash, presumably in person

2.   use ground mail to get the M.O. to the remailer

3.   send encrypted email from your nym to me identifying which account
     it applies to.

4.   remailer receives the email and the M.O.

5.   apply funds to account.


I see a couple of ways a determined mallet could over time figure out who
was doing what with whom.

My primary assumption is that mallet has some reason to suspect a specific
party and their use of anon remailers.

When the M.O. is purchased, even by cash, the chances of getting put on
tape is pretty high. This places a clear link between at least one party and
the purchase of the M.O. (it has a serial #) and the time it was purchased
(M.O.'s have time stamps). Making it trivial to figure out which
security tape(s) to review.

The ground mail places at least a rough geographic area as to its source
unless you plan on travelling all over the states sending your M.O.'s. This
is too much trouble for a user except in very unique circumstances. My
grandmother for example probably won't travel across town let alone across
the state on each use.

By monitoring the physical mail at the remailer we can clearly link the mail
to the recipient.

When the remailer deposits the M.O. a record is going to be made about who
received it and how much.

My guess is that it would take about 3-4 cycles of this before mallet can
start putting a clear picture together of what and who is involved.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Sun Sep 28 09:05:59 1997
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:05:59 +0800
Subject: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <53d43c66614dce585c3d09aa8f2b15f6@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>



Wow, Assassination politics (as Anonymous claims)  made its way into the
anti-terrorism manuals...

igor


In misc.survivalism, Anonymous wrote:
>                       State of Washington
>                     Washington State Patrol
>                 General Administration Building
>                         P.O. Box 42600
>                 Olympia, Washington 98504-2600
>                         (360) 753-6540
>
>September 17, 1997
>
>TO:       Washington State Senators
>          Washington State Representatives
>
>FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
>          Organized Crime Advisory Board
>
>SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism
>
>
>It  has   been  brought  to  my  attention  that  anti-government
>organizations  have   been  utilizing   a  tactic  called  "paper
>terrorism" to  effectively disable  government.  Commonly, public
>officials are  personally targeted.   This widespread practice is
>accomplished by  overburdening our  communications, business,  or
>judicial systems with frivolous or repetitive petitions, property
>liens, and small claims court actions.
>
>Enclosed is a brief explanation of this process.  If you feel you
>are a victim of "paper terrorism," I encourage you to contact the
>Washington State  Patrol, Organized  Crime Intelligence  Unit, in
>Olympia at (360) 753-3277, for assistance.
>
>KS:csp
>Enclosure
>
>                         PAPER TERRORISM
>
>Introduction
>
>Since the  early 1990's  there has  been a noticeable increase in
>the number  of people  across the  country who  have  joined  and
>continue to  participate in  the anti-government movement.  These
>individuals view themselves as victims of a government conspiracy
>to take  away their individual rights and liberties.  They do not
>recognize most forms of county, state, and federal government and
>therefore create  their own  self-styled  government.    National
>speakers in  the anti-government extremists or "Patriot" movement
>conduct recruitment  and information  seminars across  Washington
>State, as  well as  the  entire  country.    These  seminars  and
>recruitment  meetings   fuel  bizarre   conspiracy  theories  and
>communicate  new  trends  within  the  anti-government  movement.
>Paper terrorism  has grown  from a  trend to  a full scale tactic
>used upon  businesses, private  individuals, government  services
>and elected officials.
>
>
>Background
>
>Paper terrorism  is designed  to clog  government  services  with
>meaningless requests  which consume  time and  disrupt schedules.
>In the  private sector  paper terrorism  is an  attempt to extort
>money, goods  or services.   Some  examples  of  paper  terrorism
>activities:
>
>*    Bogus liens  placed upon  personal  property  of  government
>     officials and private individuals.
>
>*    Frivolous lawsuits filed in state and federal courts against
>     businesses and government entices [sic].
>
>*    Drafting and  passing  counterfeit  bank  checks  and  other
>     fraudulent negotiable  instruments aimed  at defrauding  the
>     financial community and businesses.
>
>*    Common Law Courts that issue homemade subpoenas to citizens,
>     businesses and government officials.
>
>*    Challenging judges  in an  effort to  disqualify them  on  a
>     current case and to repeat their motions to disqualify these
>     judges from  hearing future  cases by  referencing the prior
>     challenges.
>
>*    Scheming to  avoid paying  state sales tax during a purchase
>     by declaring  to be  a non  resident and  then filing claims
>     with the state's risk management section if refused.
>
>*    Disrupting  the  court  system  by  persuading  fellow  jail
>     inmates to defend themselves as Patriots, thus tying up more
>     of the courts and prosecutors time.
>
>*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to foster jury
>     nullification.
>
>*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
>     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
>     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
>     cash price.
>
>*    Filing bogus claims in small claims court.
>
>*    Requesting information  from  courts,  government  agencies,
>     elected officials  and businesses  in the  form of frivolous
>     questions in an effort to consume employee's time.
>
>
>Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found in their
>conversation  or   written  documents.    Common  indicators  are
>biblical passages,  referring  to  the  state  as  a  "republic",
>calling zip codes a "postal zone", refusing to acknowledge direct
>questions, separating their middle and last names with a comma or
>colon, placing  a thumb  print on  a document, claiming the court
>has no  authority, or  using the  phrases:   all rights reserved,
>without prejudice,  UCC 1-207,  pro se, sui juris, united states,
>Black's law.
>
>
>Analysis and Trends
>
>These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
>citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
>totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
>political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
>secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
>government in several forms.
>
>Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
>other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
>reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
>compete with each other to make stronger statements.
>
>
>Trend and Incident Reporting
>
>If  you   become  victimized  by  paper  terrorism,  contact  the
>Washington State  Patrol Organized  Crime  Intelligence  Unit  at
>(360) 753-3277,  extension 121.   All  acts reaching  a  criminal
>level should  be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
>prosecutor's office.
>
>
>[end transcript]
>


-- 






From MyFriends at aol.com  Mon Sep 29 00:45:03 1997
From: MyFriends at aol.com (MyFriends at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bulk E-Mailers!
Message-ID: <199709290745.AAA00883@toad.com>


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----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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From zooko at xs4all.nl  Sun Sep 28 10:22:38 1997
From: zooko at xs4all.nl (Zooko Journeyman)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 01:22:38 +0800
Subject: quote
Message-ID: <199709281711.TAA07906@xs1.xs4all.nl>




Igor Chudov contributed a quote from some government manual:


>These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
>citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
>totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
>political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
>secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
>government in several forms.
>
>Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
>other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
>reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
>compete with each other to make stronger statements.



Couldn't've said it better myself.


I see the same pattern in cypherpunks and in my non- (or 
barely-) 'Netted extremist friends of the right, the 
libertarian, and the left varieties.


I've argued with myself for years about whether the spread of 
the Net would connect these people back to their fellow humans,
by offering uncensorable, violence-free communication channels,
or whether it help them to make virtual communities consisting
solely of people who reinforce their own beliefs.


I'm still hoping for the former...


Z, hopeful cynic






From amp at pobox.com  Sun Sep 28 10:52:54 1997
From: amp at pobox.com (amp at pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 01:52:54 +0800
Subject: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: 



Congratulations Cypherpunks!!!


  From: "Igor Chudov @ home" 

> Wow, Assassination politics (as Anonymous claims)  made its way into the
> anti-terrorism manuals...
> 
> igor
=snip=

> >*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
> >     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
> >     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
> >     cash price.

Most excellent. Now, all we need to really put some fear in them and make 
them clamp down so hard it will be noticable to the average sheeple, is an 
actual prediction and collection. For that, of course, we need genuinely 
anonymous digital cash.

> >Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found in their
> >conversation  or   written  documents.    Common  indicators  are
> >biblical passages,  referring  to  the  state  as  a  "republic",
> >calling zip codes a "postal zone", refusing to acknowledge direct
> >questions, separating their middle and last names with a comma or
> >colon, placing  a thumb  print on  a document, claiming the court
> >has no  authority, or  using the  phrases:   all rights reserved,
> >without prejudice,  UCC 1-207,  pro se, sui juris, united states,
> >Black's law.

I guess the founders of this nation were also "Patriot extremists"!

Quoting the U.S. Constitution, Article IV ...


	"Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in
	this union a republican form of government, and shall protect
	each of them against invasion; and on application of the
	legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be
	convened) against domestic violence. "

Those words are supposedly the law of the land. The only thing "guaranteed" 
by the constitution is "a republican form of government". I suppose quoting 
the constitution also marks one as a "Patriot extremist".

I certainly hope so!

> >Analysis and Trends
> >
> >These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
> >citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
> >totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
> >political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
> >secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
> >government in several forms.

Well, they have this part right.

> >Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
> >other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
> >reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
> >This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
> >their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
> >compete with each other to make stronger statements.

How can someone remain isolated these days? With television and radio 
everywhere you look, and the mass media constantly telling how great 
everything is?

> >Trend and Incident Reporting
> >
> >If  you   become  victimized  by  paper  terrorism,  contact  the
> >Washington State  Patrol Organized  Crime  Intelligence  Unit  at
> >(360) 753-3277,  extension 121.   All  acts reaching  a  criminal
> >level should  be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
> >prosecutor's office.

Most excellent... I suggest we call this office and report paper terrorism 
on the part of the IRS!

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp at pobox.com
Date: 09/28/97
Time: 12:06:31
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp
==
     -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i
Message-ID: 




#Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:48:55 +0300
#From: citydesk at iinsnews.com
#To: snsheadlines at ploni.virtual.co.il
#Subject: 9/28/97  -  III-116

		 "(IINS) Israel Internet News Service Ltd."
		Israel's Only 24-Hour Internet  News Service

Table of Contents

HAMAS USING THE INTERNET TO BROADCAST ATTACK INSTRUCTIONS	
...]				****	
 
 Hamas Using the Internet to Broadcast Attack Instructions 
 (IINS News Service -Israel-9/28)  According to the Foreign Report Weekly,
the Hamas terror organization is using the Internet to transmit information
pertaining to terror attacks.

The report states the information was confirmed by Israeli security
officials. 

Hamas is sending maps, pictures and other details pertaining to terror
attacks, using encryption methods. The General Security Service
(GSS/Shin-Bet) believes most of the data is being sent to the Hamas
worldwide center, located in Britain.

				****






From ghio at temp0119.myriad.ml.org  Sun Sep 28 12:02:54 1997
From: ghio at temp0119.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 03:02:54 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709281854.OAA24329@myriad>



Adam Back wrote:
> I think someone did write the code.  I think it was Sameer, and I
> think he ran a remailer with this feature for a while.  I expect the
> code is on the berkeley ftp site somewhere.

Yes, it was a nymserver (omega.c2.org) where the user paid up front per
month per nym, and then for traffic over a certain amount.

Lucky Green wrote:
> You certainly could use DigiCash's software with Type 1 remailers. Though
> why anybody would want to pay for a service as insecure as Type 1
> remailers is beyond me. Type 1 remailers should be removed from service.
> 
> Furthermore, the barrier to entry is too high for the consumer. All these
> problems are about to be solved by third party software. Perhaps then we
> will see for-pay remailers.


What people often forget is that these structures tend to evolve thru
incremental changes rather than the immediate adoption of entirely new
paradigms.  The 'barrier to entry', is often the deciding factor.

omega.c2.org was a failure because, despite having features which
(nearly) everyone agreed were desirable, the up-front cost was too
high.  Shortly thereafter, I started a nymserver which, despite having
lower security and fewer features, featured a relatively low barrier
to entry.  This nymserver was so popular that it became the basis for
all the current nymservers.

Type-1 remailers were (and are) useful because they provided a system
which could be operated with low initial investment.  After providing
a proof-of-concept, they became the basis for PGP-enhanced remailers,
latency and reordering experiments, reply blocks, and finally mixmaster.

Various anonymous message pools were tried, and failed. 
alt.anonymous.messages worked because most people already have a
newsreader.

Same goes for blind ecash, DC-nets, secret-shared message pools, etc.
Despite our conceptual ability to describe the technology that we want,
we too often forget the cost of building the infrastructure to support
it.

So, assuming that for-pay remailers are the goal, how do we get there?
If attaching chaum-cash to remailer messages were the answer, everyone
would be doing it.  I think we need to look at the situation at a more
basic level.

Money can be defined as the lowest common denominator thing of value
shared by the greatest number of people.  (Does this describe Mark Twain
accounts?  No.)  So, how else might one pay for remailer usage?  Setting
up your own remailer is the obvious answer, but there are others, such
as selling cpu-cycles.

One potential scenario is "I'll let you use my remailer if you let me use
yours," where people earn remailer credits by remailing other people's
messages.  These remailer credits allow one to send anonymous messages
via other remailers.  Once these remailer-credits become sufficiently
valuable, they can be sold using whatever monetary system is popular at
the time.
 
Another potential scenario is to assume that a.a.m is going to continue
to grow until it becomes unwieldy.  Then people will have to pay someone
to store-and-forward the messages, or split it into smaller pools for
which people can provide their own support by running small news servers
on their machines.

Both of the above scenarios provide the desired end, which is that people
pay for their remailer usage, and neither involves the (unlikely) model
where people attach digicash to their remailer messages using the current
system.






From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep 28 12:42:54 1997
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 03:42:54 +0800
Subject: PGP Being Used to Fight the Zionist Occupation Government
In-Reply-To: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: 



At 10:59 AM -0700 9/28/97, Brad Dolan wrote:

>HAMAS USING THE INTERNET TO BROADCAST ATTACK INSTRUCTIONS
>...]				****
>
> Hamas Using the Internet to Broadcast Attack Instructions
> (IINS News Service -Israel-9/28)  According to the Foreign Report Weekly,
>the Hamas terror organization is using the Internet to transmit information
>pertaining to terror attacks.
>
>The report states the information was confirmed by Israeli security
>officials.
>
>Hamas is sending maps, pictures and other details pertaining to terror
>attacks, using encryption methods. The General Security Service
>(GSS/Shin-Bet) believes most of the data is being sent to the Hamas
>worldwide center, located in Britain.


But I told you all this several weeks ago. Through sources I have no
intention of discussing, I discovered that PGP 5.0 is indeed being used by
the Palestinia freedom fighters in their war against the Zionist occupiers
of their homeland.  They got 5.0 shortly after it was released...and got it
their forces by more direct means that that "public relations fig leaf" of
scanning in source code.

(The Palestinian farmer living in Jaffa, with title going back several
generations, is not much impressed when a Jew from Krakow arrives with ZOG
soldiers to expel him from his orange groves, citing the Old Testament as
his title to the land. Any wonder that he and his children and their
children think blowing up some ZOG residents is a reasonable response?)

I described this use of PGP to some PGP, Inc. employees at the last
Cypherpunks meeting. Two of them seemed deeply concerned. Apparently the
"freedom fighters" that Phil Z. so conspicuously refers to, the Karen
guerillas in the jungles of Myanmar/Burma, are somehow different from the
Hamas freedom fighters seeking reclamation of their own land and
destruction of the illegal ZOG state.

PGP and strong crypto is spreading quickly to many freedom fighters...and
even some terrorists (even by my definition). Who expected otherwise?

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep 28 13:00:33 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:00:33 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <21baeb41178929e645fe1fc688d0b164@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment
>> in adapting a remailer to use e-cash.  There isn't.  You have to open
>> an account at Mark Twain Bank.  You have to figure out how to call the
>> Digicash executable from within a Perl script.  (Since nobody has
>> corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as
>> easy as I think.)  Why not try it?  Worst case, you lose a little
>> time.  Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off.
>
>There are a number of technical reasons why you really don't want to call
>the standard commandline Ecash client from a script to add/retrieve Ecash
>from Mixmaster remailer packets. The biggest problem being that you can
>fit only a few coins into the packet header as specified. There is
>no feature in the standard Ecash client that allows coin level
>control. DigiCash firmly resited and continues to resist adding it. A
>$0.25 payment could be paid as three coins or as 25 coins. The user has no
>control over this. For this and a number of other reasons, DigiCash's
>software is unsuitable for the task.
>
>You certainly could use DigiCash's software with Type 1 remailers. Though
>why anybody would want to pay for a service as insecure as Type 1
>remailers is beyond me. Type 1 remailers should be removed from service.

Nonsense.  Type 1 remailers offer a certain level of security.  It is
suitable for many applications.  Type 1 remailers require a fairly
determined attacker to thwart.  They would certainly keep you safe
from the IRS, but maybe not the NSA.

Even if you were running a child kidnapping ring and failing to report
the income, you would be pretty safe using Type 1 remailers.  The NSA
would never take the chance of revealing their capabilities just to
save a few kids.

In this instance, Type 1 remailers offer a real benefit in that it is
easy to extend them with new features, such as accepting payment.

> Furthermore, the barrier to entry is too high for the consumer.

Correction: for many consumers.  The barrier for entry is not too high
for the hard core "privacy extremists" of the cypherpunks list.  And,
were there a sizeable number of goods and services purchasable using
ecash, you might discover many consumers did not find it too high a
barrier to entry.  Getting ecash is certainly easier than getting a
credit card.

>All these problems are about to be solved by third party
>software. Perhaps then we will see for-pay remailers.

Maybe, but today this is vaporware.  In my experience, plans based on
vaporware are unreliable.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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XenXJp5OquJXTyIlLSLFvCZOPnffvXFEgEew75HjZttYpkeg2qggbw==
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From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep 28 13:03:18 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:03:18 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> Ecash is in place right now.
>
>True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which
>will dominate and be used by all parties.

No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
The other systems do not have the features we want.

There is a commonly held belief that one form of payment or another
must dominate.  This is an artifact of laws which require a society to
use one type of payment.  Historically there have been a wide variety
of different currencies, just as there has been a wide variety of any
"commodity."

>Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning
>anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't
>take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action.

Do you mean watch the bank and see who is using e-cash?  That might
tell you who is using remailers, but not much else.

>> > -  how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when
>> >    I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage
>> >    equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00?
>> 
>> This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
>> customer.
>
>How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the
>customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic,
>thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking.

Can do!  Remailer operators can easily advertise what they sell and
how much it costs without compromising the customer the same way they
advertise their remailer and its features now.

Price setting is a black art.  People running businesses make
decisions based on talking to potential customers, pilot marketing
tests, and common sense.

I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
because it is easier to move prices down than to move them up.

Besides, the remailer operators have been doing all the work while a
bunch of free loaders like Monty Cantsin use their services and then
carp about it.  It seems fair for us to shoot some money towards the
operators for a change.

>If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a
>anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes?

Absolutely not.  The remailers certainly don't have to charge the same
rates.  Each remailer operator should use a pricing scheme that works
for them.

>> Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00.  As a customer,
>> I would not see this as unreasonable.
>
>Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to
>send an email around.

What is being sold is privacy and security, not e-mail transport.  It
has great value to me and many cypherpunks.  If you don't value it,
that's your business.

>The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling
>physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.

>Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
>Internet infrastructure for nearly free.

You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
will bear.

>Because of the historicaly low cost for email this would tend to in
>general indicate a low market value on anon remailers.

Not to people who care about their privacy.  But, I agree that the
price per hop will likely drop far below a quarter, not because people
won't pay more, but because they won't have to.  If it's basically
inexpensive to provide remailer services (and it is), price
competition should reduce the costs.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep 28 13:24:13 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:24:13 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve Schear wrote:
>>Digicash has software for Unix platforms which one could very easily
>>call from a Perl script.  Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't
>>be ideal, but it would work and should be easy to incorporate into
>>many of the remailers.  (I think.)
>
>True, but then the remailer's income would be available to LE, since
>payee anonymity isn't supported by DC.  Accountless operation is by
>far a better alternative for some business.

Agreed.  But this is a feature to be added later, not one to stop us
from using ecash now.

I would also note that LE is not the only group of people that might
be interested.  Aside from various spook agencies (which are not law
enforcement agencies), there are all sorts of other scary people in
the world who should be kept out of one's financial affairs.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep 28 13:38:39 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:38:39 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709282019.WAA18364@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>Let's assume you want to setup a remailer for profit.  You could use a
>spare machine on your desktop and share a phone line part time by using a
>PPP connection.  But I take it this is not what you are suggesting.  I'm
>assuming you want a commercial quality service.  You'll need a machine,
>colocation space, UPS power, a router to separate from the rest of the
>internal network, a  phone line for complaints and administration, a domain
>name, and a person who can do programming, server administration, and
>administrative work, perhaps 20 hours per week.
>
>        Machine $2,500
>        Router             800
>        Domain             100
>                      ------
>Startup costs        $3,400
>
>        Colocation      $  700
>        Phone line          45
>        Salary           3,750
>                     ------
>Recurring costs $4,495 x 12 months =    $53,940
>Fixed costs                                     $ 3,400
>                                                
>This makes an estimated business cost of $57,340 for one year, or $4,778
>per month, or about $159 per day.  based on 4,000 messages per day that
>gives a base cost per message of less than 4 cents.  Actual operation costs
>would be higher, but even at triple that price, if there is a demand for
>the service (which I have my doubts) the 25 cent price would make a profit.

1. You should be looking at the marginal cost of adding money
collection to a remailer.  It isn't fifty thousand dollars, it's
calling Mark Twain Bank, downloading the ecash software, getting it
set up, and then hooking it into your remailer.  (This would be a good
way for the EFF to collect donations, wouldn't it?)

2. Remember that this could be started as a side business by somebody
who has already paid the fixed costs.

3. $50,000 is nothing for a high tech venture, anyway.  If there is
any indication that security services could be a real market, the
investment money will flow like tap water.  (People love web
businesses that are really generating hard cash.)

>What about the free system does not seem to work well?

When I look at Raph's statistics I don't see a successful remailer
network.  Now, there is some question about what his numbers mean, and
there are some questions about the causes, but it is believed (not
just by me) that the remailers lose messages and that they are delayed
by reasons other than waiting for reordering queues to fill up.

Yesterday, I think you said that if you noticed a problem with your
remailer at 1am, you would deal with it in the morning.  You are a
volunteer and that is perfectly reasonable.  But, if your remailer was
related to a flow of cash, you might find it worthwhile to stay up
another 30 minutes.

Also, there are really only a few remailers out there.  If there was a
market in place, we would see some more entrants, both as service
providers and as customers.  There are lots of people out there who
would be delighted to operate a remailer for $5000/year.

>I'll admit that I really have not used DigiCash.  Maybe someone here
>can tell me some experiences with it.

It's a great product.  You haven't lived until you've e-mailed money.

>I found two problems.  Last I checked, the bank account reuired to
>have digicash had a service fee of about $10 per month.

I don't think you have to pay this fee with every account.  (Even if
there is a $10 fee, I would think my $50 would help defray the
expense.)

The way it works (in e-mail) is you generate a block of ASCII text
that looks sort of like a PGP message and give it to the person you
want to pay.  You can make the payment out to them in particular, or
you can make it out to whoever takes the certificate to the bank
first.

For ease of use, remailers should use the latter method.  This also
means that you wouldn't have to have a merchant account (which might
be more expensive) to accept cash with your remailer.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 28 14:00:56 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:00:56 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709282104.QAA09234@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:52:22 -0400
> From: Anonymous 
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >> Ecash is in place right now.
> >
> >True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which
> >will dominate and be used by all parties.
> 
> No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
> The other systems do not have the features we want.

Yes, but it does not have a clear market advantage. In fact the anonymity
issue may actualy work against it.

> There is a commonly held belief that one form of payment or another
> must dominate.

I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols unless
their interface is the same for all of them. There simply isn't enough
business to have very many systems.

Ask yourself this, how attractive would the Internet have been if it had
required users to install and manage multiple communications protocols for
every connection?

> This is an artifact of laws which require a society to
> use one type of payment.  Historically there have been a wide variety
> of different currencies, just as there has been a wide variety of any
> "commodity."

Different currenciens don't mean different payment systems. Even though we
have dollars, yen, rubels, etc. the things people do with them and the
way the systems are built are pretty much the same. This is why
international business works in the first place; they got banks, we got
banks. If I can buy a Quarter Pounder (Le Royale) in the US I figure I
can work it out in Russia.

> >Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning
> >anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't
> >take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action.
> 
> Do you mean watch the bank and see who is using e-cash?  That might
> tell you who is using remailers, but not much else.

But who is using the remailers is the point in traffic analysis if I'm
not mistaken. Not very anonymous if they know who you are.

> >> This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the
> >> customer.
> >
> >How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the
> >customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic,
> >thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking.
> 
> Can do!  Remailer operators can easily advertise what they sell and
> how much it costs without compromising the customer the same way they
> advertise their remailer and its features now.

Can do what? Anonymity cracking or create a payment system that allows
for the intermediate parties to be paid but doesn't over-burden the
user? The point is not to have the poor end user have to create a half-
dozen payment arrangements to get chaining. It becomes a real hassle to
do at that point. We're talking about the people that drive the one block
to the store to get more beer...

> I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
> because it is easier to move prices down than to move them up.

This is the silliest thing I think I have heard so far in this
discussion.

A quarter a message per hop is about 2,000+ times too expensive to make
anonymous remailers work. The key to anonyous remailers is not the
cost per message but rather the amount of traffic to be carried.
Anonymous remailers are beasts of mass markets measured in millions of
recipients.

And my experience is that prices move up and people expect them to.

> >If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a
> >anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes?
> 
> Absolutely not.  The remailers certainly don't have to charge the same
> rates.  Each remailer operator should use a pricing scheme that works
> for them.

But the system to post charges BETWEEN remailers must be pretty consistent
to be acceptable. That is the key and it has NOT been discussed too any
great degree. That inter-remailer traffic must be anonymous also or else
traffic analysis can back-track.

It seems to me that the remailers need some sort of anonymous payment
server that is put in place for some other reason, that way they don't
have to deal with the justification issue. The most obvious issue where
anonymous purchasing would be of interest to the regular consumer is to
prevent the collection of information about them through their purchases.

Perhaps what we need is a business which purchases things as an agent of
its members and then distributes them through some anonymous tracking
system. That way the only stats collected by retailers are those of the
aggregate purchasing requests. Then a member could request the purchase
of some credit line on a remailer. The remailers could become members of
such a system and purchase credit lines on each other to deal with chaining
payment issues.

> >Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to
> >send an email around.
> 
> What is being sold is privacy and security, not e-mail transport.  It
> has great value to me and many cypherpunks.  If you don't value it,
> that's your business.

What is being sold is anonymity. It does not necessarily provide
privacy and may in fact decrease your security.

> >The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling
> >physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.
> 
> >Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
> >Internet infrastructure for nearly free.
> 
> You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
> will bear.

How? What I am saying is that physical mail and the system developed for
dealing with it went hand-in-hand. The design and advancement of the
Internet technology is not driven by email or it's technology. That perhaps
because of this difference perhaps we need to look at models other than
the postage one. It in fact may be coloring our perception and a look at
alternative models might help.

> >Because of the historicaly low cost for email this would tend to in
> >general indicate a low market value on anon remailers.
> 
> Not to people who care about their privacy.  But, I agree that the
> price per hop will likely drop far below a quarter, not because people
> won't pay more, but because they won't have to.  If it's basically
> inexpensive to provide remailer services (and it is), price
> competition should reduce the costs.

The remailer itself is cheap, it's the rest of the system that needs working
on.

Furthermore, most people who want privacy aren't going to be saying
anything anyway, anonymous or otherwise. The people who will use anonymous
remailers are people who have something to say but for one reason or another
don't wan't it tied to them personaly. It's not privacy but 'plausible
deniability' they are looking for.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep 28 14:07:07 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:07:07 +0800
Subject: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Igor Chudov wrote:
>In misc.survivalism, Anonymous wrote:
>...
>FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
>          Organized Crime Advisory Board
>
>>SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism

My hat's off to the genius who perpetrated this hoax.  They got the
government lingo down so well that for a second I actually thought it
was real!

Note the total disregard for the law:
>>*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to foster jury
>>     nullification.

Or this wonderful excerpt which confuses real terrorism
("Assassination Politics") with paper terrorism, just like reporters
and politicians do all the time:
>*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
>     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
>     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
>     cash price.

Or this section, which is clearly intended as a parody of the FBI.
(Brilliant!):
>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems into blaming government, and cause members to compete
>with each other to make stronger statements.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep 28 14:11:50 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:11:50 +0800
Subject: Remailer latencies
Message-ID: <8b648aa61709b5c33e4397393b2e5c09@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

David E. Smith wrote:
>> If so, what accounts for these message losses?  I would expect that
>> if your machine was down, even for a couple of days, that the
>> incoming messages would be queued up on other machines and none
>> would be lost.
>
>It's more like "of the last 1000 messages sent, 9964 of 'em have made
>it back to me."  Because of the way I have to have things set up,
>there are almost always a few messages in transit. I have, very
>occasionally, actually seen my remailer listed at 100%; somewhere
>over 99% is far more common.

But, presumably Raph waits awhile for the message before deciding the
machine is down?  If I understand correctly, you are saying that
messages don't actually disappear, but they are sometimes delayed for
longer than the two days Raph waits* for them to come back.

(* Assumption made on the basis that his timing data doesn't describe
any delays longer than two days.)

>For me, the remailer doesn't consume any exceptional new resources,
>so the added cost to me of running a remailer is very nearly zero.
>(Those are mostly the "administrative" costs of dealing with
>complaints, adding people to the blocklist, and cleaning up after the
>occasional spam bomb.)  Others, with different circumstances, may be
>more eager to pursue a profit-making solution.

It could cover the cost of that second line.  ;-)

If you haven't tried ecash, you might enjoy it.  Setting up your
remailer to accept it is a lot easier than you might think.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep 28 14:16:52 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:16:52 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
Message-ID: <89bca20c4c4e7e17eddcd9e11f3b5f69@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>The downtime statistic is more an indication of when email has to be
>sent more than once to get to Redneck.  Apparently this is 17 out of
>1,000 messages on the average.  To be honest, I don't really know how
>the stats program works, I'm just assuming this is what is being
>checked.

If the downtime statistic reflects connection failures it isn't that
useful.  This sort of problem is relatively common on the Net and is
handled automatically.  I strongly suspect it really does reflect
disappeared messages.

Does anybody know how Raph's stats are collected?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep 28 14:30:41 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:30:41 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709282107.XAA23460@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Ghio wrote:
>What people often forget is that these structures tend to evolve thru
>incremental changes rather than the immediate adoption of entirely
>new paradigms.  The 'barrier to entry', is often the deciding factor.

Good point.  I appreciated the following detailed discussion.  But, I
disagree on a few points.

>So, assuming that for-pay remailers are the goal, how do we get
>there?  If attaching chaum-cash to remailer messages were the answer,
>everyone would be doing it.

An economist was walking down the street and saw a hundred dollar
bill.  The engineer with him snapped it up.  Later, the engineer asked
why his friend hadn't taken the money.  "Well, the economist
explained, I knew that it couldn't really be there because if it was,
somebody would have gotten it."

>One potential scenario is "I'll let you use my remailer if you let me
>use yours," where people earn remailer credits by remailing other
>people's messages.  These remailer credits allow one to send
>anonymous messages via other remailers.  Once these remailer-credits
>become sufficiently valuable, they can be sold using whatever
>monetary system is popular at the time.

Think of ecash as "remailer credits", only somebody else has gone to
the trouble of solving all of the hard problems (including
infrastructure), and you can get remailer credits by doing any
productive activity for anybody in the world who will pay you in
dollars.  Some people will get ecash (i.e., "remailer credits") by
running remailers.  Others will get it by working for Microsoft and
converting part of their income to ecash.

Ecash suits the bill perfectly and it is available and working right
now.  It is actually easier to use ecash than to write some sort of
"remailer credit" system from scratch.

>Both of the above scenarios provide the desired end, which is that
>people pay for their remailer usage, and neither involves the
>(unlikely) model where people attach digicash to their remailer
>messages using the current system.

Again, there seems to be this idea that it's hard to get set up using
ecash.  If it were, long discussions about how likely it would be to
work with the remailers might be worthwhile.

But, the fact is, it isn't hard to get a remailer to accept ecash.
So, we should get a bunch of remailers accepting it and see how things
go.

It should also be quite easy to modify existing client software to put
ecash into chained messages.

Consider premail.  Raph would have to add a keyword to his remailer
description table which means "accepts 25 cents ecash".

Premail could have a command line option to add ecash.

The ecash itself could come from a file of blocks of ASCII ecash made
out to cash, which are automatically clipped by premail and then
pasted into the message.  Easy, right?  Nobody even has to interact
with the ecash application from the program.

So where do these files full of blocks of ASCII ecash going to come
from?  People with ecash accounts can generate them by hand or by
having a program call the ecash software to generate them.  Then they
can give or sell them to their less fortunate friends who don't have
an ecash account.

If you don't use up all the ecash ASCII blocks, they can be
redeposited.

It's that easy.  It will work.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From pooh at efga.org  Sun Sep 28 16:55:46 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:55:46 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <89bca20c4c4e7e17eddcd9e11f3b5f69@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970928194755.033d2350@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 05:10 PM 9/28/97 -0400, (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>If the downtime statistic reflects connection failures it isn't that
>useful.  This sort of problem is relatively common on the Net and is
>handled automatically.  I strongly suspect it really does reflect
>disappeared messages.

A missing message may just be a delayed message.  Almost all remailers on
Raph's list are at a 99+% uptime rate.  This figure is probably computed
based on a ping to rlist and a reply through the reordering pool.  I would
suspect that Raph waits for the latency period of the remailer.  If the
ping does not return, then uptime is less than 100%.  My suspicion is these
pings are "missing" because they are near the end of the list of pings and
just stuck in the reordering pool, or stuck in the normal connection
failure process.  I've personally had messages in the reordering pool for
over six hours.

Since almost all of the remailers on Raph's list are at 99+% uptime rates,
then I would daresay no messages get lost.

Even if you wish to assume that remailers lose messages due to bugs in the
software, a payment system is not likely to fix that any more so than the
current group effort.  Public domain, freeware, and shareware software has
often had higher quality than commercial software.

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From anon at anon.efga.org  Sun Sep 28 18:15:48 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:15:48 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
>> The other systems do not have the features we want.
>
>Yes, but it does not have a clear market advantage. In fact the
>anonymity issue may actualy work against it.

We are not talking about an abstract "what will the market do" issue
here.  We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
security.

The rest of the world may or may not catch on to ecash, but if it's
going to start, it will start with a small group.  I think it should
be this one.

>> There is a commonly held belief that one form of payment or another
>> must dominate.
>
>I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols
>unless their interface is the same for all of them. There simply
>isn't enough business to have very many systems.

Businesses use multiple forms of payment all the time, even in the
United States where multiple currency use is legally discouraged.
When I go to a restaurant I can pay in cash or use a variety of credit
cards.  And credit cards cost the establishment a substantial amount
of money and headache, too.

>> >Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning
>> >anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't
>> >take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action.
>> 
>> Do you mean watch the bank and see who is using e-cash?  That might
>> tell you who is using remailers, but not much else.
>
>But who is using the remailers is the point in traffic analysis if I'm
>not mistaken. Not very anonymous if they know who you are.

I hope we are all assuming that The Enemy knows who is using
remailers, at least at the moment.  There's no hiding those telltale
PGP messages sent to a certain short list of suspected remailer
addresses.  Some day we will have good steganography and it won't be
possible to tell who is using a remailer, but this is not the best
problem to solve right now.

> >How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the
> >customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic,
> >thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking.
>
>> Can do!  Remailer operators can easily advertise what they sell and
>> how much it costs without compromising the customer the same way
>> they advertise their remailer and its features now.
>
>Can do what? Anonymity cracking or create a payment system that
>allows for the intermediate parties to be paid but doesn't
>over-burden the user? The point is not to have the poor end user have
>to create a half- dozen payment arrangements to get chaining. It
>becomes a real hassle to do at that point.

No it doesn't.  Watch carefully:

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek money25cents";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek money25cents reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix money25cents";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " money25cents mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly money25cents hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";

See if you can figure out which remailers accept money and how much
they accept.  Now, in figuring that out, did you do anything that
would reveal your identity?  Do you think a simple program could
handle the task?

Also, the remailer can still offer free operation, but it can give
nonpaying customers lower priority, delaying their messages by a few
hours, for example.  This means remailers still have a low barrier to
entry, but people can also pay a little money to get excellent
service.

>We're talking about the people that drive the one block to the store
>to get more beer...

You might be.  I'm interested in smart people who want to protect
their privacy.

>> I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
>> because it is easier to move prices down than to move them up.
>
>This is the silliest thing I think I have heard so far in this
>discussion....
>...And my experience is that prices move up and people expect them to.

Mind your manners.

Then look around.  For the last few hundred years just about
everything has been dropping in price.  And, in the computer and
information industry in particular, prices drop like crazy all the
time for decades, even when you adjust for inflation.  Buy memory
recently?

>A quarter a message per hop is about 2,000+ times too expensive to
>make anonymous remailers work.

If you want to run a remailer and charge a fraction of a cent for each
message, or for an account, or whatever, please be my guest.

>The key to anonyous remailers is not the cost per message but rather
>the amount of traffic to be carried.  Anonymous remailers are beasts
>of mass markets measured in millions of recipients.

That is obviously untrue.  Remailers are used by a small highly
specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.  Some day, if we
do good work, there will be millions of users.

Can you think of any mass market which started out as a mass market?
I can't think of a single one.  But, there are lots of mass markets
that started out with a small group of people paying fairly high
prices.  As time went by, the prices dropped, more people came in, and
eventually a mass market developed.

>But the system to post charges BETWEEN remailers must be pretty
>consistent to be acceptable.

Untrue.  You just have to know what each remailer charges.  That's
about as hard as knowing what services it offers or that it exists.

>That is the key and it has NOT been discussed too any great
>degree. That inter-remailer traffic must be anonymous also or else
>traffic analysis can back-track.

I may be misreading this, but you do realize ecash is anonymous,
right?  Nobody can tell who sent the money, just who received it.

Perhaps you are arguing that The Enemy would notice that you withdrew
a bunch of coins and then make a guess that all those remailers making
deposits three minutes later are depositing your coins?  That is
easily solved by generating the ASCII ecash certificates once a week
or so and then pasting them into your messages when you send them.

>It seems to me that the remailers need some sort of anonymous payment
>server that is put in place for some other reason, that way they
>don't have to deal with the justification issue.

What justification issue?  Ecash is available right now.  You don't
have to justify it to anybody, just use it.

Hopefully, once the cypherpunks start using it regularly, it will
begin to catch on with people peripheral to the group, and then with
everyone.

>> >The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling
>> >physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure.
>> 
>> >Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing
>> >Internet infrastructure for nearly free.
>> 
>> You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
>> will bear.
>
>How?

You seem to think that because the cost of transporting mail is
inexpensive, the price for protecting somebody's identity can't be
high.

>What I am saying is that physical mail and the system developed for
>dealing with it went hand-in-hand. The design and advancement of the
>Internet technology is not driven by email or it's technology. That
>perhaps because of this difference perhaps we need to look at models
>other than the postage one. It in fact may be coloring our perception
>and a look at alternative models might help.

The only models that have been proposed so far require a lot of work
and evangelism.  Ecash doesn't require much work, and it will be
easier to evangelize.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Sep 28 18:29:25 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:29:25 +0800
Subject: Encrypted terrorist plot information
Message-ID: 



V guvax vg jbhyq or pbby vs gur VEN be fbzr bgure serrqbz svtugre
betnavmngvba oyrj hc Cevzr Zvavfgre Oynver sbe onaavat unaqthaf.
V urneq gung uvf erfvqrapr vf ng:

                         10 QBJAVAT FGERRG

V ubcr guvf yvggyr ovg bs vasb urycf.

V'z rapelcgvat guvf zrffntr gb uvqr sebz Cuvy Unyynz-Onxre.
Cyrnfr fraq $1 gb Frna Srva rirel gvzr Cuvy fnlf fbzrguvat.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Sep 28 18:32:55 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:32:55 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <21baeb41178929e645fe1fc688d0b164@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Nonsense.  Type 1 remailers offer a certain level of security.  It is
> suitable for many applications.  Type 1 remailers require a fairly
> determined attacker to thwart.  They would certainly keep you safe
> from the IRS, but maybe not the NSA.
> 
> Even if you were running a child kidnapping ring and failing to report
> the income, you would be pretty safe using Type 1 remailers.  The NSA
> would never take the chance of revealing their capabilities just to
> save a few kids.

I disagree. The entire Type 1 networks can be trivially analyzed. It
doesn't require an NSA for this. A single person that understands mixes
and a few hackers to compromise some of the upstream, downstream servers,
not even the remailers themselves, could do it.

Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more.

 -- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred. 
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Sep 28 19:29:52 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:29:52 +0800
Subject: Memo From...(4 of 7)
Message-ID: 



(Part 4 of 7)

>*    Challenging judges in an effort to disqualify them on a
>     current case and to repeat their motions to disqualify 
>     these judges from hearing future cases by referencing 
>     the prior challenges.

Translation: "Doing the same kinds of things District Attorneys
and U.S. Attorneys do all the time, but in reverse. Not fair! 
Only we can use procedural tricks and traps because we are the 
only True Weasels!"

>*    Scheming to avoid paying state sales tax during a purchase
>     by declaring to be a non resident and then filing claims
>     with the state's risk management section if refused.

Translation: "There is some controversy over the definition of
'resident' and we will try to obfuscate by casting actions
taken by resisters as asinine attempts to deny the obvious."

>*    Disrupting  the  court  system  by  persuading  fellow  jail
>     inmates to defend themselves as Patriots, thus tying up more
>     of the courts and prosecutors time.

Translation: "Spreading their political ideas to other inmates
who then realize that they, too, may be political prisoners or
victims of unconstitutional and abusive actions taken by
officials. Having all these people wake up and begin asking
difficult questions and filing motions we can't brush under
the carpet all that easily is annoying our paid hit men and
taking up their time."

>*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to 
>     foster jury nullification.

Translation: "Distributing completely factual and accurate
information about the powers of jurors to thwart our use of
bad laws."

>*    using the Internet to  promote  extremist  ideas  
>     such as "Assassination Politics" or predicting 
>     the date of death of a law enforcement officer or 
>     government official to win a cash price.

Translation: "Using the bad-awful-whipping-boy Internet to
promote the idea that public officials be held ultimately
accountable for their actions. Only one or two people of 
the 250 million or so in the U.S. actually suggested such
accountability but it's such a great scare tactic that we
are going to hold it up as an example of how evil any of
the other 249,999,998 are who resist total overnment in
any way."

>*    Filing bogus claims in small claims court.

Court TV (and its non-televised equivalents all over the
country) doesn't count, I suppose. The government filing
false claims against citizen-units for money they don't
actually owe doesn't count, I suppose.

>*    Requesting information from courts, government 
>     agencies, elected officials and businesses in 
>     the form of frivolous questions in an effort to 
>     consume employee's time.

Translation: "We are laying the groundwork to be able to pile
more charges on those we single out for suppression. Anyone
who is prosecuted for political reasons will, in the future,
also be prosecutable for ever having requested any information
of any court, government agency or elected official, just as
we now pile gratuitous 'mail fraud' and 'wire fraud' charges
onto most of the hapless victims of the criminal federal
just-us system. Or is that 'federal criminal justice system?' 
It's so darn hard to keep all these lies straight."

> Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found 
> in their conversation or written documents. 

So can tell-tale signs of ass-wipe would-be tyrants, but 
that's another memo altogether.

(continued in Part 5)






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Sep 28 19:31:36 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:31:36 +0800
Subject: Memo From...(6 of 7)
Message-ID: 



(Part 6 of 7)

> without prejudice, 

A legal term found in any law dictionary.

> UCC 1-207, 

A reference to some part of the Uniform Commercial Code.
Terrorism can now consist of citing existing law. Great.

> pro se, 

Defending onesself now earns the classification of "terrorism."

> sui juris, 

Acting of one's own rightm possessing full social and civil
rights, not being under any civil disability or power of 
another or guardianship, having the capacity to manage one's
own affairs... is now "terrorism?"

Since we have to presume that she is not prepared to sacrifice
these legal terms for her own use we have to think that this
is a redefinition of what is politically correct for a citizen-
unit to write in his own legal documents.

> united states, 

United States? As a common noun? Trying to demonize that one
is a dangerous ploy for bureaucrats and politicians who are
themselves largely functionally illiterate. "Make a mistake
in capitalization or punctuation and GO TO JAIL!" God, wouldn't 
your 5th grade spinster teacher, Miss Anderson, have just 
LOVED that? "Johnny, fail this weekly quiz and you're going
to the slammer for a month! Beverly, you're going to get the
chair if you go down for the third time!"

> Black's law.

Oh dear! The common everyday law dictionary. Of course only
nincompoop resisters quote Black's. Real Lawyers (tm) cite
case law, not dictionaries, because they've been let in on
the Great Secret (tm) that "law comes from the bench." No 
wonder we're in such trouble! We've been electing the wrong
asswipes all this time! We've been electing legislators,
thinking they make the law, when we should have been electing
judges. Geez.

> Analysis and Trends
>
> These anti-government extremists and supporters are 
> convinced citizens are being systematically oppressed 
> by an illegal, totalitarian government. 

Maybe that's because it's true.

> They believe the time for traditional political reform 
> has passed, 

Traditional political reform seems to mean "no political
reform." At least that's what it has meant all through
MY lifetime.

> that their freedom will only be secured by resistance 
> to the law and attacks against the government in several 
> forms.

Sadly, there is probably a rapidly increasing number of
ordinary citizen-units coming to this conclusion. To
understand why, all one must do is watch the government.

> Members of these groups bond to one another and lose 
> contact with other people who hold different opinions.  

Nice try! We've been to college, have we? We've taken
Psych 101, have we? We fancy ourselves adept at Psychwar,
do we?


(continued in Part 7)






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Sep 28 19:37:13 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:37:13 +0800
Subject: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970928131309.008af664@pop.pipeline.com>



Phill warned Adam:

>I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
>to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.

The WSJ reported recently on the comparatively lax security
of the principal US nodes of the Internet -- MAEs and such. 
The reporter located the facilities and spoke to several of the 
sys admins, most of whom were surprised at being IDed, and 
were reluctant to discuss security. Some did, though, and
shook their nogs at the ease with which the whole shebang 
could be trashed, claiming that for now it was only obscurity
that saved the net -- or at least its facilities -- and asked
the reporter not to tell the full story.

A similar report was written in a mag a few months back, with
a focus on the New Jersey facility (with photo), MAE, I think.

There was a discussion here in 1994 or so on the location of 
the landing points of transatlantic cables, many of which come
into New York City at obscure points along the coast, into
huts and shacks, actually, easily located by following the
cables shown on coastal maritime maps which neatly diagram 
every one of them to warn off shipping and dredging.

At that time some of the cpunks associated with the telco
and financial industries here (NYC) hinted at even worse 
security, especially the facilities kind, at the humongous 
hi-rise switching banks and highly accessible local 
distribution cablings into dank "secure" cells.

I pray that none of these remarks are seen as darkly conspiratorial, 
but merely chit-chat, like Phill's bark.

-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Sep 28 19:39:33 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:39:33 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:In response to Declan's questions about crypto.com
Message-ID: <199709282213.PAA26939@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 03:09 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> 4. CDT continues to support efforts to relax encryption export controls. 

And that is where you are wrong:

We need crypto legislation like we need nine inch nails hammered through
our skulls.

Any legislative attention to crypto is bad and dangerous, as we have been
saying for years, and has just been dramatically proven once again.

Business lobby groups are intermediaries, and therefore serve
two masters, both the politicians and the businessmen, not one
master.  Frequently they serve the interests of the politicians
at the expense of their donors, at the expense of the goals
that the lobby group is supposed to pursue.

> We also recognize the realities of politics.  No matter how much any of us
> might wish it to be true, members of the Commerce Committee were not
> willing to stand up and simply oppose everything. 

This is a bunch of crap:  It is highly likely that no bill will go
through.  Most bills die.   This bill should die.

Killing bills is always politically safer than passing them, doing 
nothing cannot get you into trouble.

>  It was not in the
> cards.  White and Markey offered them a chance to defeat Oxley while
> throwing a small bone to law enforcement.  We believe that passage of SAFE
> with the White-Markey amendment, despite the problems with the criminal
> provisions, is on balance, a step forward in the fight for encryption
> policy reform.

This is untrue and dishonest.  No bill at all is the best step forward,
and doing nothing is always easiest to attain.

> As always, I am happy to respond to queries about CDT's positions and
> tactics, but I am not interested in engaging in public flame throwing.

The CDT is ultimately a business lobby group, because it gets
most of its funding from businesses.  It is therefore potentially
subject to the same corruption as other business lobbies.

Business lobby groups are intermediaries, and therefore serve
two masters, both the politicians and the businessmen, not one
master.  Frequently they serve the interests of the politicians
at the expense of their donors, at the expense of the goals
that the lobby group is supposed to pursue.

Suppose for example you have a lobby group that
represents the widget industry.

On the one hand, the CEO of General Widgets might ring them up 
and say: "We are being trashed by these great japanese widgets, 
and unless something is done about it we might have to reduce 
prices or improve quality", and the lobby organization has a 
little chat with some tame politicians about the terrible 
suffering the Japanese are inflicting on American workers.   
That is the way lobby groups are supposed to work, but seldom do.

On the other hand sometimes the politician (or a
gofer on his staff), rings the lobby and says:  "I need a
million dollars fast:  What potential political action gets the
chairman of General Widgets waking up in a cold sweat in the
middle of the night?  What could destroy the widget industry, 
and yet be politically feasible?"  Shortly thereafter the 
lobbyist has a little chat with chairman of General Widgets 
about forthcoming legislation.  The lobby group
gets a big bag of money, some of which it passes on to
the politician, and the threatened legislation evaporates 
until the next election.

To be a successful lobby group, the CDT needs to get its
fingerprints on legislation, so that it can make threats and
promises to businessmen in the computer industry.

Thus the CDT's best interests as an organization are contrary
to our desires and contrary to the announced aims of the 
organization.  Legislation, any legislation, is in their 
interests and legislation, any legislation is against our 
interests.

Our interests, and the CDT's interest are opposed with no
apparent mutual good possible.

Now it is possible that the CDT is virtuously pursuing its
supposed goals, rather than its practical interests.  We should
consider the available evidence in order to infer what it is
in fact up to.

According to Dave Barry the word "politics" derives from the Greek 
"poly" meaning many, and "ticks" meaning small disgusting 
bloodsucking parasites.

In order to be well funded, the CDT needs government
regulation of the net.  The kind of regulation that would be
most effective in ensuring large donations would be regulation
that compels internet businessmen to lobby the government.
for example regulations that make impossible, inconsistent, and
contradictory requirements on those who provide software,
hardware, and services, for example a demand that big
companies police the net in ways that even governments would
find extremely difficult, such as the British child porn
crackdown, or legislation which if properly crafted would 
have the effect of giving some businessmen a monopoly of 
some aspect of the net, and putting other businessmen out 
of business,  for example legislation that requires case 
by case approval of software, or legislation that compels
the businessman to invade his customers privacy, and also
prohibits him from invading that privacy unless he has a
waiver issued by the state.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep 28 19:40:10 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:40:10 +0800
Subject: Don't go there...
Message-ID: <199709281908.VAA10708@basement.replay.com>



http://www.xensei.com/users/hubcom/units.htm







From whgiii at invweb.net  Sun Sep 28 19:40:13 1997
From: whgiii at invweb.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:40:13 +0800
Subject: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199709281350.JAA17459@users.invweb.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.3.32.19970927210451.006b202c at schloss.li>, on 09/27/97 
   at 09:04 PM, Black Unicorn  said:

>At 06:49 PM 9/27/97 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
>>Tim May wrote:
>>>>I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
>>>>and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
>>>>information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.
>>
>>At 04:27 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>>> A presentation from you at FC98 would remind everyone of your own initial
>>> writings on the subject and provide you with due credit (better credit than
>>> a jail/rotting sentence).   I can't think of anyone else who would be more
>>> qualified for this.
>>
>>Freedom of speech is protected by nothing stronger than the cluelessness
>>of our masters.
>>
>>If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.
>>
>>If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
>>and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.
>>
>>I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
>>that even cops and politicians start to understand them.


>Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only semi-related
>to his AP ranting.

>The AP ranting is just the way he managed to attract attention.

>Moral:  If you're going to rant about AP you better be squeeky clean
>first.

Moral: If you're going to rant about AP you better have a system in place
to take out the rat-bastards before they come looking for you.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Sep 28 19:42:12 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:42:12 +0800
Subject: write up AP for FC++
Message-ID: <199709282139.OAA07351@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 06:49 PM 9/27/97 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
> > If you publish your idea in appropriate forums, you can get away with it.
> >
> > If you go from forum to forum singing your idea like a broken record, 
> > and flogging it like soap, you will probably go to jail.
> >
> > I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly
> > that even cops and politicians start to understand them.

At 09:04 PM 9/27/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
> Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only semi-related to
> his AP ranting.

Not too many people face a lengthy period of imprisonment without trial,
followed by a lengthy period of imprisonment without sentence, for using
a false social security number and possession of a stink bomb.

Actually Jim Bell's greatest offence was being broke.  I have seen some
truly laughable convictions of people with public defenders.  He who pays
the piper calls the tune.  If you are charged with politically incorrect
crimes, and have a public defender, you have two prosecutors and no defender,
and under those circumstances a prosecutor could convict a dog of being
a ham sandwich, and have him sentenced to death by drowning in mustard.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From at at dev.null  Sun Sep 28 19:42:50 1997
From: at at dev.null (A. B. Terroroist)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:42:50 +0800
Subject: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <199709281555.KAA07727@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <342EAA26.145F@dev.null>



Dear Ms. Schmidt,
  If you are the Chairman of the Organized Crime Advisory Board, then 
this email is for you. Otherwise, it is just an annoying piece of spam
by an ignorant, drunken asshole who is too stupid and lazy to use the
InterNet search engines effectively.

  I am writing in regard to a memo that was posted on the CypherPunks
mailing list, and which was attributed to yourself (if you are the you
that I think I am writing to).
  I am currently involved in a project to warn the unwitting, such as
myself, about the Evil Farces which are striving to subject the whole
world to being on their knees (and we all know what people on their
knees do, don't we?).
  I would like to use your memo in writing a chapter of Part III of 
'The True Story of the InterNet,' but I find myself in an ethical dilema
in this regard.

  Although I am a known liar, thief, forger and FUD artist, I have still
managed to hold on to a modicum of basic human integrity.
  I have a sick sense of humor which is apparently only appreciated by 
myself, since no one ever responds to me, but I have fun, just the same,
by using bad forgeries and shallow deceptions to try and ridicule those
things which decent people hold sacred. I am pretty much shameless when
it comes to usurping peoples Net personas and twisting their words to
make them look like fools and assholes, but even I have my limits.

  To tell the truth, although I have always considered myself to be
the funniest person in the world (but looks aren't everything, eh?),
when I read the memo below, which is attributed to you, I laughed so
hard that I fell off my chair, broke three ribs, blew snot all over
myself, and peed my pants.
  I haven't done that since the guy with the paper bag over his head
said, "I just flew in from LA, and boy, are my arms tired!" (He was
a paper bag joke terrorist.)

  Anyway, I intend to use the memo below to help other people blow
snot all over themselves by reading about how we need to destroy the
last tattered fragments of the Constitution in order to protect the
children of America from people who are "separating their middle and
last names with a comma or colon."
  Since I plan to attribute the memo to yourself, you should contact
me to let me know if you're really just pulling people's legs (like
your email address suggests). 
  Although I enjoy peeing my pants as much as the next person, I would
feel bad if people took your memo seriously, by mistake, and overthrew
the government when they realized that their tax dollars were going 
toward putting out memos suggesting that inmates defending themselves
and people requesting information from government agencies are a threat
to democracy.

  Although I am a Cult of One InterNet Terrorist known as TruthMonger
McVeigh, and my ultimate goal is to overthrow all the governments of
the world without ever leaving my house (except to go to the bar,
two blocks away), even I would not stoop so low as to attribute the
memo below to a Fascist, Nazi pawn of the Evil One unless they really
wrote it (not even if they did have an Aryan name).
  Although I always forage my email headers because I have permanently
misplaced my scruples, you can find out how to contact me by asking
some of the CypherPunks, such as Tim C. McVeigh, Alan McVeigh, William
Geiger McVeigh III, ? the McVeigh, Damaged McVeigh, Attila T. McVeigh,
and A McVeigh To Be Named Later.

Insincerely,
Terrorist, A. Bad 
"I'm in the Book"

A goddamn Commie fucking spy @ home wrote:
> Wow, Assassination politics (as Anonymous claims)  made its way into the
> anti-terrorism manuals...
> igor
> In misc.survivalism, Anonymous wrote:
> >                       State of Washington
> >                     Washington State Patrol
> >                 General Administration Building
> >                         P.O. Box 42600
> >                 Olympia, Washington 98504-2600
> >                         (360) 753-6540
> >
> >September 17, 1997
> >
> >TO:       Washington State Senators
> >          Washington State Representatives
> >
> >FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
> >          Organized Crime Advisory Board
> >
> >SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism
> >
> >
> >It  has   been  brought  to  my  attention  that  anti-government
> >organizations  have   been  utilizing   a  tactic  called  "paper
> >terrorism" to  effectively disable  government.  Commonly, public
> >officials are  personally targeted.   This widespread practice is
> >accomplished by  overburdening our  communications, business,  or
> >judicial systems with frivolous or repetitive petitions, property
> >liens, and small claims court actions.
> >
> >Enclosed is a brief explanation of this process.  If you feel you
> >are a victim of "paper terrorism," I encourage you to contact the
> >Washington State  Patrol, Organized  Crime Intelligence  Unit, in
> >Olympia at (360) 753-3277, for assistance.
> >
> >KS:csp
> >Enclosure
> >
> >                         PAPER TERRORISM
> >
> >Introduction
> >
> >Since the  early 1990's  there has  been a noticeable increase in
> >the number  of people  across the  country who  have  joined  and
> >continue to  participate in  the anti-government movement.  These
> >individuals view themselves as victims of a government conspiracy
> >to take  away their individual rights and liberties.  They do not
> >recognize most forms of county, state, and federal government and
> >therefore create  their own  self-styled  government.    National
> >speakers in  the anti-government extremists or "Patriot" movement
> >conduct recruitment  and information  seminars across  Washington
> >State, as  well as  the  entire  country.    These  seminars  and
> >recruitment  meetings   fuel  bizarre   conspiracy  theories  and
> >communicate  new  trends  within  the  anti-government  movement.
> >Paper terrorism  has grown  from a  trend to  a full scale tactic
> >used upon  businesses, private  individuals, government  services
> >and elected officials.
> >
> >
> >Background
> >
> >Paper terrorism  is designed  to clog  government  services  with
> >meaningless requests  which consume  time and  disrupt schedules.
> >In the  private sector  paper terrorism  is an  attempt to extort
> >money, goods  or services.   Some  examples  of  paper  terrorism
> >activities:
> >
> >*    Bogus liens  placed upon  personal  property  of  government
> >     officials and private individuals.
> >
> >*    Frivolous lawsuits filed in state and federal courts against
> >     businesses and government entices [sic].
> >
> >*    Drafting and  passing  counterfeit  bank  checks  and  other
> >     fraudulent negotiable  instruments aimed  at defrauding  the
> >     financial community and businesses.
> >
> >*    Common Law Courts that issue homemade subpoenas to citizens,
> >     businesses and government officials.
> >
> >*    Challenging judges  in an  effort to  disqualify them  on  a
> >     current case and to repeat their motions to disqualify these
> >     judges from  hearing future  cases by  referencing the prior
> >     challenges.
> >
> >*    Scheming to  avoid paying  state sales tax during a purchase
> >     by declaring  to be  a non  resident and  then filing claims
> >     with the state's risk management section if refused.
> >
> >*    Disrupting  the  court  system  by  persuading  fellow  jail
> >     inmates to defend themselves as Patriots, thus tying up more
> >     of the courts and prosecutors time.
> >
> >*    Distributing the  extremist Citizens Handbook to foster jury
> >     nullification.
> >
> >*    using the  Internet  to  promote  extremist  ideas  such  as
> >     "Assassination Politics"  or predicting the date of death of
> >     a law  enforcement officer  or government  official to win a
> >     cash price.
> >
> >*    Filing bogus claims in small claims court.
> >
> >*    Requesting information  from  courts,  government  agencies,
> >     elected officials  and businesses  in the  form of frivolous
> >     questions in an effort to consume employee's time.
> >
> >
> >Tell-tale signs of Patriot extremists can often be found in their
> >conversation  or   written  documents.    Common  indicators  are
> >biblical passages,  referring  to  the  state  as  a  "republic",
> >calling zip codes a "postal zone", refusing to acknowledge direct
> >questions, separating their middle and last names with a comma or
> >colon, placing  a thumb  print on  a document, claiming the court
> >has no  authority, or  using the  phrases:   all rights reserved,
> >without prejudice,  UCC 1-207,  pro se, sui juris, united states,
> >Black's law.
> >
> >
> >Analysis and Trends
> >
> >These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
> >citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
> >totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
> >political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
> >secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
> >government in several forms.
> >
> >Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
> >other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
> >reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
> >This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
> >their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
> >compete with each other to make stronger statements.
> >
> >
> >Trend and Incident Reporting
> >
> >If  you   become  victimized  by  paper  terrorism,  contact  the
> >Washington State  Patrol Organized  Crime  Intelligence  Unit  at
> >(360) 753-3277,  extension 121.   All  acts reaching  a  criminal
> >level should  be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
> >prosecutor's office.
> >
> >
> >[end transcript]
> >
> 
> --






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep 28 19:44:18 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:44:18 +0800
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <199709281255.OAA02545@basement.replay.com>



On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:04:51 -0500 Black Unicorn foolishly blurted:

> Try to keep in mind that Bell went to jail for crimes only 
> semi-related to his AP ranting.

> The AP ranting is just the way he managed to attract attention.

Try to keep in mind that that is how the government plays the 
game, here and elsewhere. Even in countries that have laws
against irritating the government a hip regime always now tries
to prosecute for only semi-related or even completely unrelated
"crimes." Maybe you, too, could be found to have engaged in
juvenile activities like ordering noxious substances, much to 
your surprise and horror, after calling attention to yourself 
in a way that touches a sensitive spot on the body bureaucratic.
Although Bell might in fact be a complete idiot and have given
them the levers they needed to destroy him, it would be a 
grave mistake to assume that there is any truth at all to the
charges. This is political prosecution a la 1997 in the land of
the Freeh, home of the slave. In this climate the risk of 
expressing any opinion that touches government's hot buttons is
that you will be investigated. Being investigated can easily
ruin you, being charged almost certainly will -- both pre-trial 
punishments that make a mockery of the entire set of constitutional
protections against prosecutorial and judicial abuses. The modern
equivalent of the Crown's former ability to target someone with
a law is the ability of the government to mine a rich cache of
laws for the one that can circumstantially be applied to the
victim. The odd thing that works in their favor is that anyone
who practices as he preaches is more likely than others to have
vulnerabilities of the sort government looks for when targetting
him. It's one of those things that provides the black hats with
a heavy strategic advantage. Not that they're satisfied with 
that, of course. They'll use it, but they'll also black bag you,
maybe send in some orders in your name to chemical supply houses,
whatever it takes once you get on their list.






From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Sep 28 19:45:08 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:45:08 +0800
Subject: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further tw
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 



Phillip Hallam-Baker  writes:

>
> On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk] wr
>
> > Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> >
> > So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> > that the lack of crypto is dangerous.
>
> I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
> to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.
>
> There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
> attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
> jail sentences.
>
> More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now
> there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
> the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
> I would say.
>
> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible
> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I
> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
> look to make that person serve jail time.

I suggest that every time Phil posts to this mailing list, we all
send $1 each to Sean Fein.

I suggest we discuss the detailed plans how to blow up the queen bitch,
prime Minister Blair, and the Harrods department store and hope that
someone implements these plans.

I suggest that Phil is an idiot.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Sep 28 19:53:46 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:53:46 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:CDT complains to my editors after post to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199709290228.TAA23436@proxy3.ba.best.com>



At 09:34 AM 9/26/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> The larger issue is that the CDT/VTW "players" are showing their
> willingness to trade away the civil liberties of us all for a few minor
> tidbits thrown (they think) to corporate sponsors.

In fact, the problem is not corporate sponsors.  Rather the problem is
that lobbying groups often tend to get captured by the government.  They want
to get their fingerprints on legislation, so that they can extort money
from their corporate sponsors, and are therefore eager to do the politicians 
bidding in any way whatever in order that they can get their fingerprints on
any 
legislation whatever.

This problem is unrelated to civil liberties issues.  Lobby groups for
the milk industry, small business, etc, are infamous for selling out the
interests of the businesses that support them.

I am not saying that the CDT is guilty of this, but the fact it persists
in trying to get legislation passed under present circumstances should 
not only alarm civil libertarians, it should also alarm big business.

> Those who work near Washington tend to get pulled into this power vortex.
> They become functionaries, advisors, consultants, lobbyists, or even,
> sometimes, elected politicians themselves.
>
> This is probably why EFF belatedly realized that their soul was being lost
> and got the hell out. That so few news magazines delved into this is
> telling.]

My congratulations to EFF, who I have vigorously flamed in the past.  I hope
that one day I will be able to similarly congratulate the CDT.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Sep 28 20:17:02 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:17:02 +0800
Subject: Memo From... (1 of 7)
Message-ID: 



(Part 1 of 7)

The latest spin document on resistance to tyranny from The
People's Democratic Republic of Washington requires some
translation to be understood by normal human beings:

>                       State of Washington
>                     Washington State Patrol
>                 General Administration Building
>                         P.O. Box 42600
>                 Olympia, Washington 98504-2600
>                         (360) 753-6540
>
> ...
>
>FROM:     Representative Karen Schmidt, Chairman [sic]
>          Organized Crime Advisory Board
>
>SUBJECT:  Paper Terrorism

A contradiction in terms if there ever was one. "paper
terrorism," to be a meaningful term, would have to be
something like the dropping of 500 lb. bundles of paper
on unsuspecting, innocent people. "Terrorism" means
violent attacks on the populace to instill fear and
uncertainty. Unless someone is killing people with
paper, the subject of this document is pure propaganda.

> It has been brought to my attention that anti-
> government organizations have been utilizing a tactic 
> called "paper terrorism" to effectively disable government.

It is interesting that "they" can only think in terms of
"organizations." It may not dawn on them until it is too
late that the future is one of individual action. No
meetings to spy on. No informants. No membership lists or 
memos to seize.

"Called?" Called by whom? By government? Notice that this
is an example of the definition of a new term to suit those
attempting to suppress opposition. It is a standard tactic.

Note that there seems to be a key admission in the previous 
sentence. She seems to be saying that the tactics she is 
about to describe actually work.

> Commonly, public officials are  personally targeted.   

See various works on the history of the American Revolution
for perspective.

> This widespread practice is accomplished by overburdening 
> our communications, business, or judicial systems with 
> frivolous or repetitive petitions, property liens, and 
> small claims court actions.

I thought that those frivolous systems of the government
were already overburdened by "normal" business. So now 
thay wish to suppress those whose politics they don't
like by classifying their communications, business,
court petitions, liens and small claims actions as not
only frivolous, but "terrorism." Interesting.

>Enclosed is a brief explanation of this process.  If you feel you
>are a victim of "paper terrorism," I encourage you to contact the
>Washington State  Patrol, Organized  Crime Intelligence  Unit, in
>Olympia at (360) 753-3277, for assistance.

Note that "Intelligence" in law enforcement means keeping
files and lists of names. It means prejudicing victims in
subsequent actions and proceedings. It means targeting
victims for their efforts at 1st Amendment expression and
defending themselves in administrative and judicial
proceedings.

(continued in Part 2)






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 28 21:10:06 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:10:06 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709290409.XAA10643@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:03:59 -0400
> From: Anonymous 
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> Jim Choate wrote:
> >> No, there is only one system which provides anonymity.  It's called ecash.
> >> The other systems do not have the features we want.
> >
> >Yes, but it does not have a clear market advantage. In fact the
> >anonymity issue may actualy work against it.
> 
> We are not talking about an abstract "what will the market do" issue
> here.  We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
> remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
> security.

That is exactly what we are talking about, he who predicts what the market
will do AND invests somebodies elses money will win big. That 'abstract'
market motion is EXACTLY what the market will do in practice. In other words
it's the service you will be buying because the people with the money think
it will make them money off your willingness to spend your money.

As I have said before, privacy and security are not issues in remailers.
Being able to plausibly deny any involvement is, a subtle but important
difference.

> The rest of the world may or may not catch on to ecash, but if it's
> going to start, it will start with a small group.  I think it should
> be this one.

It will not start with a small group. Anonymous remailers are big traffic -
big buck operations in the long run. The price per message must be in the
milli-cent range which means the traffic must be in the mega-message range
to make money; simple multiplication.

> Businesses use multiple forms of payment all the time, even in the
> United States where multiple currency use is legally discouraged.

It isn't a question of which currency you use - that is NOT the same as the
economic system in place. Businesses may use dollars or dinars but at the
end of the day they put them in a bank which at least at times follows
international agreements on banking. This is why we can transfer money from
one denomination to another.

> When I go to a restaurant I can pay in cash or use a variety of credit
> cards.  And credit cards cost the establishment a substantial amount
> of money and headache, too.

Yes, but that is not a different system. You are still taking money from
your bank account (on loan from a bank if through a CC) and putting it in
somebody elses bank account. The banks define our system of economics to a
great degree. Banks don't like anonymous transactions so whatever system we
put in place must buy the support of the traditional financial institutions
at some point. How do you convince a bank that anonymous cash transactions
are in their best interest?

> I hope we are all assuming that The Enemy knows who is using
> remailers, at least at the moment.

If they do then the users aren't anonymous anymore and hence any 'security'
or 'privacy' they may derive is one of delusion.

> There's no hiding those telltale
> PGP messages sent to a certain short list of suspected remailer
> addresses.  Some day we will have good steganography and it won't be
> possible to tell who is using a remailer, but this is not the best
> problem to solve right now.

Stego won't be any harder to detect than a PGP encrypted message.

> >Can do what? Anonymity cracking or create a payment system that
> >allows for the intermediate parties to be paid but doesn't
> >over-burden the user? The point is not to have the poor end user have
> >to create a half- dozen payment arrangements to get chaining. It
> >becomes a real hassle to do at that point.
> 
> No it doesn't.  Watch carefully:
> 
> $remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
> $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
> $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
> $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek money25cents";
> $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
> $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
> $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
> $remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
> $remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
> $remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek money25cents reord post";
> $remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
> $remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
> $remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
> $remailer{"lcs"} = " mix money25cents";
> $remailer{"medusa"} = " money25cents mix middle"
> $remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
> $remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
> $remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly money25cents hash ek";
> $remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
> $remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";

I guarantee that neither your mother or mine will look twice at that
gobbeldy-gook. Hell, I won't use it because I have to create such files
every damn time I have to send a message. Too much work, too much room for
errors. When you can arrange to chain remailers without the user having to
touch the above you will have a winner.

KISS

> See if you can figure out which remailers accept money and how much
> they accept.  Now, in figuring that out, did you do anything that
> would reveal your identity?  Do you think a simple program could
> handle the task?

Actualy, yes I did do something to reveal my identity. I have to pass that
entire list of chaining along to the first remailer who passes it along to
the second minus the first entry and so on. If I can grab a single remailer
in that chain I can back track because that remailer knows where that list
came from.

To really make chaining secure neither the user or the individual operators
should have a say in it.

> You might be.  I'm interested in smart people who want to protect
> their privacy.

Then they won't use remailers at all. A smart person is not going to trust
any 3rd party channel they don't have total control over. A smart person is
not going to get involved in a conflict in the first place. The situation is
sort of like the comparison between reasonable and un-reasonable men.
Progress is caused by the un-reasonable man. If the commercial remailer is
ever going to arise (which I doubt) it will be one of 'regular joe's' as
users and must be about as complicated as getting a coke from a machine
(which is a long way off currently).

> >This is the silliest thing I think I have heard so far in this
> >discussion....
> >...And my experience is that prices move up and people expect them to.
> 
> Mind your manners.

I am, that doesn't mean I can't call a spade a spade. I didn't say anything
about you personaly, deal with it.

> Then look around.  For the last few hundred years just about
> everything has been dropping in price.

Really? I suggest you look at newspapers from say the mid-60's and compare
them to now. Very few things will be anywhere close to where it was then in
price, and the vast majority will not be lower.

Bread went up, water went up, electricity went up, etc.

> And, in the computer and
> information industry in particular, prices drop like crazy all the
> time for decades, even when you adjust for inflation.  Buy memory
> recently?

No, prices don't drop the machines that used to cost the current price
aren't made anymore. Any entry level machine costs about $1,000 just like
it did 10 years ago. The difference is that you get a lot more hardware
and a new os. Again, a minor but important distinction.

Yes, I have bought memory recently - 64M as a matter of fact. The memory has
dropped in price because the new machines don't take it anymore or else
the motherboards with the new many-megs-required OS's won't work on 8M
anymore. Theres no mystery other than obsolescence at play. Try buying one
of the new 4G DRAM's....

> If you want to run a remailer and charge a fraction of a cent for each
> message, or for an account, or whatever, please be my guest.

I looked into it for several months about a year and a half ago. The result
was the current economic, social, and legal environment simply aren't going
to support such operations in the near future with anything like the
indipendance that we would like.

Hell, your the one offering $50 or somesuch for a commercial remailer. Take
that $50 and set up your own site. Nothing like experience to teach a hard
lesson. If you're right you should be making money in short order.

> >The key to anonyous remailers is not the cost per message but rather
> >the amount of traffic to be carried.  Anonymous remailers are beasts
> >of mass markets measured in millions of recipients.
> 
> That is obviously untrue.  Remailers are used by a small highly
> specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.  Some day, if we
> do good work, there will be millions of users.

While remailers may be, commercial remailers still don't exist and are a
completely different beast than some philanthropic enterprise. If you don't
get the millions up front you won't be getting anyone. The other aspect you
seem to ignore consistently is not the cost to submit the original message
but the cost to send that message to the world, the real cost I might add.
The purpose of commercial remailers (and I suspect all remailers) is to
reach a mass market. If your market can't reach millions for pennies nobody
will use it because you can't give them what they want.

Whether its drugs, sex information, or political views the central party
must reach a large group to succeed.

> Can you think of any mass market which started out as a mass market?
> I can't think of a single one.

Once the pioneers worked out the technology: Cable television, music videos,
automobiles, air transport, bicycles, telephones.

> >But the system to post charges BETWEEN remailers must be pretty
> >consistent to be acceptable.
> 
> Untrue.  You just have to know what each remailer charges.  That's
> about as hard as knowing what services it offers or that it exists.

Only if you feel obliged to arrange payment between the remailers yourself,
which provides a link between remailers and you further eroding your
expectation of anonymity. The point, which you miss, is that the chaining
remailers should know nothing of the original user which your system fails
to do.

> >That is the key and it has NOT been discussed too any great
> >degree. That inter-remailer traffic must be anonymous also or else
> >traffic analysis can back-track.
> 
> I may be misreading this, but you do realize ecash is anonymous,
> right?  Nobody can tell who sent the money, just who received it.

ecash is anonymous but it is not an accepted standard between remailers, let
along commercial ones. Furthermore, under your system I as a user must
contact each remailer and arrange payment to some account. So we know not
only who received it but who sent it as well, otherwise how does the
remailer know to take your payment and apply it to your account and not
mine?. If we further accept your premise that mallet knows who is using those
remailers then we are completely devoid of anonymity.

> Perhaps you are arguing that The Enemy would notice that you withdrew
> a bunch of coins and then make a guess that all those remailers making
> deposits three minutes later are depositing your coins?  That is
> easily solved by generating the ASCII ecash certificates once a week
> or so and then pasting them into your messages when you send them.

I am arguing that under the current system the checks and balances are such
that true anonymity can't be attained on a scale that is commercialy
feasible.

> >It seems to me that the remailers need some sort of anonymous payment
> >server that is put in place for some other reason, that way they
> >don't have to deal with the justification issue.
> 
> What justification issue?  Ecash is available right now.  You don't
> have to justify it to anybody, just use it.

Really? How about explaining how I purchase a car or house anonymously with
ecash? I can't.

Also, you seem to have missed an important point. When we get a system where
anon remailers can survive we will have created an anonymous money laundry,
not something that a lot of people want or desire.

> Hopefully, once the cypherpunks start using it regularly, it will
> begin to catch on with people peripheral to the group, and then with
> everyone.

If this were true it would have already happend. The thousand or so people
on this list might be involved in the technology and its application, I
doubt that we will have any say in its eventual success.

> >> You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market
> >> will bear.
> >
> >How?
> 
> You seem to think that because the cost of transporting mail is
> inexpensive, the price for protecting somebody's identity can't be
> high.

First, you don't know what I think - ask questions don't make assumptions
(speaking of manners). Please keep your ad hominims at home.

What I am saying is that because the cost of individual mail is low I as a
commercial business trying to make a living off each of those emails can't
expect a lot from them, therefore I need a lot of them.

> >What I am saying is that physical mail and the system developed for
> >dealing with it went hand-in-hand. The design and advancement of the
> >Internet technology is not driven by email or it's technology. That
> >perhaps because of this difference perhaps we need to look at models
> >other than the postage one. It in fact may be coloring our perception
> >and a look at alternative models might help.
> 
> The only models that have been proposed so far require a lot of work
> and evangelism.  Ecash doesn't require much work, and it will be
> easier to evangelize.

ecash is not what I am talking about here. Which by the way will take a lot
of work to get people to use it as ubiquitously as needed by a commercial
remailer.

I am talking about the entire infrastructure that will be required to support
commercial remailers. What will be required is not clear to anyone involved
in the issues. I furthermore don't have any interest in religion (re
evangalism) but rather in running a business and making money. I don't want
to change your mind, I want you to spend your money with me (as an anon
remailer operator) with the security that no matter what you submit it can't
be traced back to you. Even your much vaunted ecash can't do that yet.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From bs at dev.null  Sun Sep 28 21:10:56 1997
From: bs at dev.null (Bubba Sho'nuff)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:10:56 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 23 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <342F21C5.2DE5@dev.null>

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From dlv at bwalk.dm.com  Sun Sep 28 21:20:04 1997
From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:20:04 +0800
Subject: Memo From Washington Gestapo Tyranny
In-Reply-To: <342EAA26.145F@dev.null>
Message-ID: 



"A. B. Terroroist"  writes:
>   I have a sick sense of humor which is apparently only appreciated by
> myself, since no one ever responds to me,

I, for some, enjoy your writings very much!!!1!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Sun Sep 28 21:42:05 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:42:05 +0800
Subject: NoneRe: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709290424.GAA18708@basement.replay.com>



> Another potential scenario is to assume that a.a.m is going to continue
> to grow until it becomes unwieldy.  Then people will have to pay someone
> to store-and-forward the messages, or split it into smaller pools for
> which people can provide their own support by running small news servers
> on their machines.

This is exactly what is happening.  In fact one ISP mentioned recently on
this list keeps alt.anonymous.messages traffic for an extended period of
time for their customers.

On a more practical note, if the user downloads all the messages, or uses
secret-sharing techniques, the ISP can sell accounts using non-anonymous
payment methods and not know which users are receiving which messages.
No blind ecash needed.






From pooh at efga.org  Sun Sep 28 21:57:51 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:57:51 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <199709282107.XAA23460@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929004320.03366024@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.  I've asked the question
before, Why would remailer operators want to accept Ecash?  After seeing
the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin, I to rephrase it, why does
*Mr Catsin* want remailer operators to use Ecash?

The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could increase.
The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run like a hobby, not
a business, so the money would be an incentive to bring in professionalism.
 So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.  Most of the resources are
donated in some way, but this is their equivalent retail value.  Even so,
with Monty's pricing structure and Cracker's current level of traffic it
would be enormously profitable.

Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some spare parts
theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200 per month, or even
$5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to 25% of worldwide remailer
traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not much.  I would say this is due
mainly to the user interface.  Making remailers more difficult to use by
adding Ecash is not going to increase traffic significantly.

  >I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop

In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously messed
up comment.  A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per
hop. A price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
valuation. But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing model
should be flat rate.  One price for a month, or even a year's service.  The
net is based on a peering price structure, not an inter-lata structure.
Trying to compute or add charges at each hop is against the nature of
information flow for the net.

  >We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
  >remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
  >security.

The point I have never gotten past is how you expect a payment system to
change the level of service?  The next point I'm still shaking my head over
is what about remailer services is not up to your standards?  The only
thing I have heard you mention is latency, which is a feature programmed
into the remailers.  If anything, people would pay to add latency, not to
take latency away.

  >Remailers are used by a small highly
  >specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.

There is some truth in this statement.  But there are also remailers run by
a variety of companies such as hotmail, juno, and the like.  They encompass
millions of users.  Millions of users who want a remailer, but will not
tolerate the level of entry required for a Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.
Until client software can be improved and made as easy to use as an
integrated spelling checker, the "advanced" remailers will have no true
market share.  (Oh, I forgot.  Most of the world uses email clients without
integrated spell checkers.)

FOOTNOTES:
[1] Cracker handles 27% of worldwide traffic based on adding all the stats
found at www.jpunix.com, though I would assume some remailers are not on
this list.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 28 22:24:43 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:24:43 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709290525.AAA10918@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:43:20 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" 
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash

> The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could increase.
> The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run like a hobby, not
> a business, so the money would be an incentive to bring in professionalism.
>  So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
> would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
> less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.  Most of the resources are
> donated in some way, but this is their equivalent retail value.  Even so,
> with Monty's pricing structure and Cracker's current level of traffic it
> would be enormously profitable.

I have to disagree on the annual cost to run. Considering the load of
remailers a simple ISDN would be sufficient. With that instead of a T1 it
takes less than $1,000 a month to operate a machine full-time. Approximately
1/4 of your estimate. I agree further that remailers COULD make a profit
under current conditions IF the financial institutions accepted anonymous
transactions (let's not even get into the LEA's and tax agents) from both
source and destination; they don't. I personaly found the legal issues the
most daunting considering my income and cash reserves. It would not take
more than one or two nuisance suites to put a small operator out of the
game permanantly. One of the critical aspects of successful small business
operation is a stable financial environment, I don't think you can have that
visiting the lawyer every few weeks.

> In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously messed
> up comment.  A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per
> hop. A price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
> valuation.

This is larger than my guess at a fair market per msg value. Considering
your price does your remailer get enough traffic to pay your $50k a year?

> But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
> transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing model
> should be flat rate.  One price for a month, or even a year's service.

Of coure it should be transactional and the only way to get it going full
speed is to grab the casual user. Consider that an email is a transaction,
it isn't like a phone line that may actualy handle many users over a given
time. Email has one source and one to many destinations. The problem with
flat rate is it underestimates the impact of large remailings when the
population is itself millions. Furthermore, under a flat rate model each
remailer in the chain gets less if the number of remailers grows. This runs
contrary to what the user wants for anonymity retention which is a lot of
links in the chain. The user should be the one to decide how many and how
much that is worth to them.

> The
> net is based on a peering price structure, not an inter-lata structure.
> Trying to compute or add charges at each hop is against the nature of
> information flow for the net.

It sounds to me like what you are saying is that since email (a one-time
event) is a service of the Internet, however the Internet (a long-term
structure of computers forming backbones with more transient leaf nodes) can
survive flat rate pricing because the limitations of a piece of hardware are
known and can be figured in. The number of users and the amount of remailing
can't necessarily be known before hand. Furthermore, assuming a commercial
model I would certainly have saturating my pipes a goal.

> There is some truth in this statement.  But there are also remailers run by
> a variety of companies such as hotmail, juno, and the like.  They encompass
> millions of users.  Millions of users who want a remailer, but will not
> tolerate the level of entry required for a Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.
> Until client software can be improved and made as easy to use as an
> integrated spelling checker, the "advanced" remailers will have no true
> market share.  (Oh, I forgot.  Most of the world uses email clients without
> integrated spell checkers.)

It further seems to me that to make that software simple and easy to use a
lot of 'decisions' have to be made for me. That indicates to me some sort of
standards and the implied organizations that set them for the remailers.

And contrary to what some would have you believe, those organizations and
standards do not necessarily imply great submissions on the part of the
participants indipendance. Consider the types of questions that needed to be
answered to get the CDR up and going. Such an organization would probably
suffice for the initial boot-strap.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Sep 28 22:56:35 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:56:35 +0800
Subject: Memo From...(7 of 7)
Message-ID: 



(Part 7 of 7)

> The isolation works to reinforce their views, which in 
> turn gives them new purpose.

Translation: "We think we have a really, really clever
protoargument here for nullifying the right to peaceably
assemble. If we can characterize the resisters as nut
cases we can make the argument that they cannot be allowed
the right to assemble because they reinforce each other's
illness. Isn't that neat-o?"

>This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>their problems into blaming government, and cause members to
>compete with each other to make stronger statements.

Translation: "Just as happened in the 1770's. We can't have anything like THAT happening here and now, can we? That was THEN, this is NOW! SHUT UP and SIT DOWN!"

> Trend and Incident Reporting
>
> If you become victimized by paper terrorism, contact the
> Washington State Patrol Organized Crime Intelligence Unit at
> (360) 753-3277, extension 121. All acts reaching a criminal
> level should be referred to your local law enforcement agency or
> prosecutor's office.

She never mentioned "Paper Terrorism" perpetrated by government
agencies, did she? Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to
the relative magnitude of government victimizing citizen-units
vs citizen-units snapping at the heels of government by means 
of the tactics she lists above?  1,000-to-1?  100,000-to-1?

Karen's definition of what constitutes "Paper Terrorism" is,
basically, anything in the way of communication, court 
pleadings, cases, liens, etc. that the government doesn't 
like. 

If she wants to fly with a subjective definition then
she can't very well argue against the subjective view of
citizen-units who feel they are being terrorized by numerous
and multitudinous, often false or frivolous communications,
court pleadings, suits, charges, liens, seizures, convictions,
sentences, fines, etc. Their subjective views are at least as
valid as Karen's or the government's.

(She's an elected ass-wipe, but she's OUR elected ass-wipe!
If we want to elect someone on the Totalitarian ticket, that's
our right. There's no law that says a Representative has to
represent our interests.)






From remailer at bureau42.ml.org  Sun Sep 28 23:02:11 1997
From: remailer at bureau42.ml.org (bureau42 Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:02:11 +0800
Subject: Memo From...(3 of 7)
Message-ID: 



(Part 3 of 7)

> Paper terrorism has grown from a trend to a full scale 
> tactic used upon businesses, private individuals, 
> government services and elected officials.

Translation: "There are signs the resistance is growing and
becoming widespread."

>Background
>
>Paper terrorism is designed to clog government services with
>meaningless requests which consume time and disrupt schedules.
>In the private sector paper terrorism is an attempt to extort
>money, goods or services. 

As if the other requests they would like to be handling are
not meaningless? Let's face it: Except as it provides them
job security, bureaucrats regard all requests of any kind
from citizen-units as meaningless, consumptive of time and
disruptive of schedules. Nor can a government that is
increasingly jailing its citizen-units and seizing their
property without just cause or due process make even a
thin claim to be concerned about "the private sector."

> Some examples of paper terrorism activities:
>
>*    Bogus liens  placed upon  personal  property  of  government
>     officials and private individuals.

Translation: "Last-ditch attempts to make officials accountable
for their tyrranical actions. When citizen-units have been
outrageously damaged by unaccountable officials they sometimes
resort to filing liens against those responsible."

>*    Frivolous lawsuits filed in state and federal courts against
>     businesses and government entices [sic].

Translation: "Lawsuits with which those in power disagree." 

If it doesn't muss their hair they could care less if you 
sue someone for serving you hot coffee that's advertized as 
hot coffee or sue the manufacturer of a machine that has 
passed through 30 years of ownership and maintenance of 
dozens of third parties just because you were stupid enough 
to put your fingers in the gears. But sue a bureaucrat for 
being stupid, arrogant, abusive, vindictive and destructive 
of your rights and watch out! That's FRIVOLOUS! Apparently 
it's also now "terrorism."

>*    Drafting and passing counterfeit bank checks and other
>     fraudulent negotiable instruments aimed at defrauding 
>     the financial community and businesses.

Translation: "Devising well-researched instruments such as 
Public Order Money Certificates, payable the very moment 
lawful money is put back into circulation." 

She would have us think that resisters are out there 
writing bad checks, something only the government is 
allowed to do with impunity.

>*    Common Law Courts that issue homemade subpoenas 
>     to citizens, businesses and government officials.

Homemade? That's cute. Various common law entities have been 
created by various folk in the last 10-15 years in desperate
attempts to put SOMETHING in place that would function
lawfully and constitutionally. A few of those have been on 
the fringe, and those are the only ones that will ever be
cited as examples, of course. Never mind that all the 
townships and other little political units all over the
country were formed pretty much the same way. "That was
THEN and this is NOW and WE ARE IN CHARGE!  SHUT UP and SIT 
DOWN!" Don't you love government as we head into the 21st
Century, the century which will see the final extinguishing
of the light of freedom if people don't get off their asses
and do something?


(continued in Part 4)






From frantz at netcom.com  Sun Sep 28 23:47:03 1997
From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:47:03 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709282104.QAA09234@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 2:04 PM -0700 9/28/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols unless
>their interface is the same for all of them. There simply isn't enough
>business to have very many systems.

While this is certainly true for remailers at the present, it is not true
for businesses in general.  Most of the stores I deal with locally will
accept cash, checks or credit cards.  The interface (and accounting) for
these is quite different.  (E.g there is no online check for cash, like
there is for credit cards, and sometimes checks.)


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz at netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA


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From pooh at efga.org  Sun Sep 28 23:57:22 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:57:22 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709290525.AAA10918@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929022928.036cc6d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 12:25 AM 9/29/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>> From: "Robert A. Costner" 
>> So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
>> would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
>> less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.
>
>I have to disagree on the annual cost to run. Considering the load of
>remailers a simple ISDN would be sufficient.

Sure.  You can run a remailer on whatever bandwidth, and under whatever
conditions you choose.  When I did a breakdown of the pricing, I simply put
forth what Cracker has behind it, not the minimum required.  But with an
ISDN line, you  then have to have a location to house it, so you in theory
require rent.  You also add one more thing in the loop that is subject to
failure.

The winsock remailer demonstrates that a remailer can run on a 28.8K PPP
connection, part time.  Remailers never have been bandwidth intensive.

An advantage of the 10MB connection for Cracker is that when those several
hundred megabyte mailbombs, and thousands of addresses to the same location
come in, they can be discarded faster than with a 64K ISDN connection.

In reality, Cracker runs with whatever resources have been made available
to us.  It turns out we were offered a spare 10MB connection before we
offered a spare 64K connection. And interestingly enough, the true cost of
the 10MB connection is less than the 64K ISDN connection would be.  There
are definite advantages to a colocated machine even if it is what we are
"stuck with".


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From master at internexus.net  Mon Sep 29 01:36:19 1997
From: master at internexus.net (Laszlo Vecsey)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:36:19 +0800
Subject: noise spheres
Message-ID: 



Are there any texts available on interpreting patterns found in noise
spheres? 

- lv







From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep 29 02:16:15 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:16:15 +0800
Subject: quote
Message-ID: <199709290855.KAA17787@basement.replay.com>



On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 at 19:11, Zooko Journeyman 
farted:

> Igor Chudov contributed a quote from some government manual:

>> These anti-government  extremists and  supporters  are  convinced
>> citizens  are  being  systematically  oppressed  by  an  illegal,
>> totalitarian government.   They  believe the time for traditional
>> political reform  has passed,  that their  freedom will  only  be
>> secured  by  resistance  to  the  law  and  attacks  against  the
>> government in several forms.
>>
>> Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with
>> other people who hold different opinions.  The isolation works to
>> reinforce their  views, which  in turn  gives them  new  purpose.
>> This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize
>> their problems  into blaming  government, and  cause  members  to
>> compete with each other to make stronger statements.

> Couldn't've said it better myself.

> I see the same pattern in cypherpunks and in my non- (or 
> barely-) 'Netted extremist friends of the right, the 
> libertarian, and the left varieties.

> I've argued with myself for years about whether the spread of 
> the Net would connect these people back to their fellow humans,
> by offering uncensorable, violence-free communication channels,
> or whether it help them to make virtual communities consisting
> solely of people who reinforce their own beliefs.

> I'm still hoping for the former...

> Z, hopeful cynic

Jerk! You don't have the slightest clue about what is going
on over here, do you?






From vipul at best.com  Mon Sep 29 03:21:21 1997
From: vipul at best.com (Vipul Ved Prakash)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:21:21 +0800
Subject: quote
In-Reply-To: <199709281711.TAA07906@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <199709291410.OAA00871@fountainhead.net>



Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> I've argued with myself for years about whether the spread of 
> the Net would connect these people back to their fellow humans,
> by offering uncensorable, violence-free communication channels,
> or whether it help them to make virtual communities consisting
> solely of people who reinforce their own beliefs.

> I'm still hoping for the former...

um, i don't understand why you think these are 
mutually exclusive. it pretty obvious that 
people with similar interests will get together 
and form virtual communities based on common 
values rather than physical proximity when they 
have access to a communication 
infrastructure like the net. 

accidental and arbitrary interactions is the darker 
side of brick-wall reality, the internet is the tech 
to transcend it. when people have the tech they use it. 

best,
vipul

-- 
Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" 
It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the 
conventional answer, "Still spinning."
				      -- "Reason", Asimov. 
==================================================================
Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul at best.com 	                  | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Virtual Spaces






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 29 05:45:47 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:45:47 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709291246.HAA11540@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:29:28 -0400
> From: "Robert A. Costner" 
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)

> At 12:25 AM 9/29/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> From: "Robert A. Costner" 
> >> So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
> >> would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
> >> less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.
> >
> >I have to disagree on the annual cost to run. Considering the load of
> >remailers a simple ISDN would be sufficient.
> 
> Sure.  You can run a remailer on whatever bandwidth, and under whatever
> conditions you choose.

Duh.

>  When I did a breakdown of the pricing, I simply put
> forth what Cracker has behind it, not the minimum required.  But with an
> ISDN line, you  then have to have a location to house it, so you in theory
> require rent.  You also add one more thing in the loop that is subject to
> failure.

Like a T1 doesn't require a POP. Like T1's and their associated CSU/DSU's
and such don't break (tell that to several of my customers who will get a
hearty chuckle out of that one). Like they don't need air-conditioning and
other support services.

> The winsock remailer demonstrates that a remailer can run on a 28.8K PPP
> connection, part time.  Remailers never have been bandwidth intensive.

True, but to be effective they must be available on demand and the user
shouldn't have to wait until your auto-dialer feels this is a good time to
deliver the service.

> An advantage of the 10MB connection for Cracker is that when those several
> hundred megabyte mailbombs, and thousands of addresses to the same location
> come in, they can be discarded faster than with a 64K ISDN connection.

I have found that my 128k connection very seldom gets congested even with
high traffic. Other traffic choke points usualy limit the amount of
traffic that I see. Even when one of my customers runs their resume tracking
program (which will saturate a ethernet easily in testing) can seldom
saturate the line for more than a few seconds.

> In reality, Cracker runs with whatever resources have been made available
> to us.  It turns out we were offered a spare 10MB connection before we
> offered a spare 64K connection. And interestingly enough, the true cost of
> the 10MB connection is less than the 64K ISDN connection would be.  There
> are definite advantages to a colocated machine even if it is what we are
> "stuck with".

Ah, so cracker is not a true commercial model but rather a hybrid then?
You pay for some services and a 3rd party donates the rest?

I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
figures to a true commercial enterprise.

Whether you have realized it or not, all those seemingly great freebies and
perks for nothing actualy make the remailer less stable because your
operation relies on the good feelings of a 3rd party which can be used to
Mallet's advantage.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 29 05:52:07 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:52:07 +0800
Subject: Digital Postage (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709291249.HAA11576@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 23:04:24 -0700
> From: Bill Frantz 
> Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd)

> At 2:04 PM -0700 9/28/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> >I can assure you that any business will not use multiple protocols unless
> >their interface is the same for all of them. There simply isn't enough
> >business to have very many systems.
> 
> While this is certainly true for remailers at the present, it is not true
> for businesses in general.  Most of the stores I deal with locally will
> accept cash, checks or credit cards.  The interface (and accounting) for
> these is quite different.  (E.g there is no online check for cash, like
> there is for credit cards, and sometimes checks.)

These are all the same payment mechanisms. I run a business and the actual
accounting for cash, credit cards, etc. doesn't make my books a lot of
difference except in what column I put the numbers. My bank certainly
doesn't care where that money came from once deposited in my account from
somebody elses account.

I believe you are caught up in details of the system and not in differences
between systems.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From phelix at vallnet.com  Mon Sep 29 05:54:59 1997
From: phelix at vallnet.com (phelix at vallnet.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:54:59 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <342f598c.15227348@128.2.84.191>



On 29 Sep 1997 02:10:39 -0500, "Robert A. Costner"  wrote:

>
>At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
>interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.  I've asked the question
>before, Why would remailer operators want to accept Ecash?  After seeing
>the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin, I to rephrase it, why does
>*Mr Catsin* want remailer operators to use Ecash?
>
>The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could increase.
>The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run like a hobby, not
>a business, so the money would be an incentive to bring in professionalism.
> So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this
>would be a $50K investment over a year's time.  This is in fact, more or
>less what the Cracker remailer takes to run.  Most of the resources are
>donated in some way, but this is their equivalent retail value.  Even so,
>with Monty's pricing structure and Cracker's current level of traffic it
>would be enormously profitable.
>
>Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some spare parts
>theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200 per month, or even
>$5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to 25% of worldwide remailer
>traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not much.  I would say this is due
>mainly to the user interface.  Making remailers more difficult to use by
>adding Ecash is not going to increase traffic significantly.
>
>  >I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
>
>In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously messed
>up comment.  A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per
>hop. A price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
>valuation. But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
>transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing model
>should be flat rate.  One price for a month, or even a year's service.  The
>net is based on a peering price structure, not an inter-lata structure.
>Trying to compute or add charges at each hop is against the nature of
>information flow for the net.
>

Why?  Each hop adds value to the message (in this case, increased
anonymity/security).  Shouldn't a person have to pay more for increased
value? 

Also, how would a user pay per-month to each remailer and maintain total
anonymity and ease of use.  Flat rate pricing requires one to open an
"account" with each remailer he would ever use before sending the first
message.  Then at each hop, the message is linked to some "account" on the
server which is someway linked to the user (specifically, a set of messages
going through a server can be linked to the same "account", which to me is
totally unacceptable).  This seems overly complicated and could compromise
the users anonymity.

Finally, with flat rate, what would prevent a person from spamming?

>  >We are talking about how to get a working payment system up for
>  >remailers which gets us great service and provides privacy and
>  >security.
>
>The point I have never gotten past is how you expect a payment system to
>change the level of service?  The next point I'm still shaking my head over
>is what about remailer services is not up to your standards?  The only
>thing I have heard you mention is latency, which is a feature programmed
>into the remailers.  If anything, people would pay to add latency, not to
>take latency away.
>
For me, the main problems I see are the number of remailers available and
spam prevention.  Going commercial solves these problems.  Also, there will
still be free remailers around.

>  >Remailers are used by a small highly
>  >specialized market of perhaps a few hundred people.
>
>There is some truth in this statement.  But there are also remailers run by
>a variety of companies such as hotmail, juno, and the like.  They encompass
>millions of users.  Millions of users who want a remailer, but will not
>tolerate the level of entry required for a Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.
>Until client software can be improved and made as easy to use as an
>integrated spelling checker, the "advanced" remailers will have no true
>market share.  (Oh, I forgot.  Most of the world uses email clients without
>integrated spell checkers.)

Agreed.  I've just finished going through the Eudora API docs and I think
sending a message through remailers can be as easy as clicking one button
on the toolbar (just like with signing a messages with the pgp plugin).
For everyday use, everything else (like choosing the remailer chain) can be
automated.

-- Phelix






From kposyov at freeyellow.com  Mon Sep 29 21:31:51 1997
From: kposyov at freeyellow.com (kposyov at freeyellow.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Last Call!!! (uce)
Message-ID: <62855905_44182223>



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From sunder at brainlink.com  Mon Sep 29 06:46:52 1997
From: sunder at brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:46:52 +0800
Subject: Fwd: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:41:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Warfield 
To: gryzor at thepentagon.com
Cc: ntsecurity at iss.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door ???

> hello,

> I have a little question Pgp 5.0 freeware have an global back door key of
> the us gouvernment or not ??

	Not.  Phil Zimmerman is an absolute religous fanatic about backdoors!
When ViaCrypt implimented a commercial escrow feature to give companies the
ability to issues keys where they had a key escrow, he used that as a reason
to break their contract.  He had a "no backdoor" clause in the ViaCrypt
agreement for PGP.  After the US goverment tried to investigate Phil into
bankruptcy for several years, I seriously doubt he would do ANYTHING
to assist them except to assist them into a pit somewhere...

> thxs 4 advance

> Gryzor

	Mike
-- 
Michael H. Warfield                 | Voice: (770)395-0150  (770)522-4823
Senior Engineer                     | Fax:   (770)395-1972
Internet Security Systems, Inc.     | E-Mail:  mhw at iss.net  mhw at wittsend.com
41 Perimeter Center East, Suite 660 | http://www.iss.net/
Atlanta, GA 30346                   | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
                PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471   http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/pubkey.txt






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Mon Sep 29 07:17:35 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:17:35 +0800
Subject: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199709291353.OAA00659@server.test.net>




Phillip Hallam-Baker  writes:
> On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk] wrote:
> > Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> > 
> > So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> > that the lack of crypto is dangerous.
> 
> I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
> to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.
> 
> There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
> attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
> jail sentences.

Uh, I think you are over-reacting.

It really depends how the engineered "infowar disaster" is presented
in the press, ranging from say:

	Dr Adam Back, a computer security researcher at Exeter
	University highlighted a fundamental weakness in DNS security
	which he demonstrates can be easily exploited.  "This is
	entirely avoidable", said Back, "the only reason that global
	infrastructure is left vulnerable, is that the wire-tapping
	extremists and intelligence special groups are being allowed
	to jeopardise national security to protect their jobs in their
	now redundant function in a post-cold war era."

or

	An anonymous cypherpunk took down half of the internet
	yesterday, with an estimated loss to business of $50 million.
	The cypherpunk hacker terrorist issued a manifesto claiming
	that his motives were to highlight insecurities in the DNS.
	Whether his motives were pure or not, the incident does
	highlight the vulnerabilities in our infrastructure, something
	infowar researchers have been arguing.

either one I can't see getting me or anyone else in trouble.

I didn't do it, no one saw me do it, you can't prove a thing, etc.  ie
actually I don't really know much about DNS mechanics, and am not
personally planning to perpetrate the attack, nor develop the
software, but why should I disclaim all that each time I write
something?  The other infowarers aren't in their academic papers...

They guy who wrote the SYN flood attack is none the worse for wear, it
was released in a phrack article, and I don't think there was any
secret as to who authored the software.

> More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now 
> there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
> the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
> I would say.

Ah, fuck that.  The FBI and spooks wiretap any one they want to
anyway, probably cause, feh.  Mealy mouthed disclaimers at the bottom
of each point in a discussion is a prior restraing on academic
research.  Cypherpunks have just as much right to discuss and develop
attacks demonstrating infowar vulnerabilities as Mr Winn "hype hype
hype" Schwartau (sp), or anyone else.

I'd suggest a good target for DNS jamming would be to take out .mil
TLD servers.  Not as if they're doing anything useful, and won't
adversely affect anyone else, whilst it will be a wake up call to the
SIGINT side of the GAK argument that they are jeopardising the
national infrastructure security side.  Perhaps we could even draw the
otherside into the argument.

> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible 
> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I 
> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
> look to make that person serve jail time.

Your argument seems to be that if you legislate against OS bugs, that
they will go away.

Well, go ahead if your idea of computer security is to legislate
against security flaws.  Reminiscent of the politician who offered to
repeal a few laws of physics to help out the physicists.

I would point out that the hackers who change your web page, or
exploit OS bugs you haven't applied patches, and send you taunting
messages telling what's wrong with your setup, are probably doing you
a service.  If you have something of real value to secure, you'd
rather know about it from a few harmless hackers, than an industrial
spy who takes the farm, and covers up his tracks so well that you
don't even notice.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Warfield  writes to Ray Arachelian or somebody:
>...  Phil Zimmerman is an absolute religous fanatic about backdoors!
>When ViaCrypt implimented a commercial escrow feature to give companies the
>ability to issues keys where they had a key escrow, he used that as a reason
>to break their contract.  He had a "no backdoor" clause in the ViaCrypt
>agreement for PGP.  After the US goverment tried to investigate Phil into
>bankruptcy for several years, I seriously doubt he would do ANYTHING
>to assist them except to assist them into a pit somewhere...

The PGP Web site in http://www.pgp.com/products/differences.cgi has a list
of differences between PGP 5.0 (personal PGP) and PGP 4.5.x (corporate
PGP).  The corporate one includes a feature that the private one doesn't
called "message recovery".  Given Phil's fanaticism outlined above, this
presumably isn't any way to get at the plaintext without the user's
knowledge or cooperation, but just what the heck IS it?  I can't find a
description of the feature on-line.  The manual itself is on-line in PDF,
which presumably answers this question for acrobat fans.  I see nothing
about "message recovery" in the hard-copy PGP 4.5 manual.

For the guy who's concerned about backdoors in PGP 5.0 -- there's no
reason to believe there are any.  There's source out there for you to
download, and you can browse it over and compile a copy for yourself.
I recommend buying a legal copy anyway, even if you are going to use
the one you compiled yourself, to encourage makers of strong crypto
for the masses -- if you're getting value, may as well pay for it
and feel good about yourself.

	Salvo Salasio
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. For CypherSaber CipherKnights: set your secret decoder ring
to "WriteYourCongressman" to decrypt this:

e91a 46d8 fba9 aaf5 927f 7a3f 1ded 8757 a741 4bb6 5568 3a5a f118 dc2b 11de
ebb3 e873 ffa1 d520 09ea 52b6 65c3 a42a 3d14 befa 0f3e ff09 e09a ad26 f877
aa84 4722 8ac3 770a 0aad 48a0 bf1e 9c51 2b1e a54f 8a7e 3e14 b0d1 3a84 8852
f9db d7ce 73b5 4066 d516 4d77 0395 37e2 b79c 9acd 6107 ecff 72bc e985 0ede
fcf0 eabd b903 9217 a0fc b95d 5ad7 3431 ba73 0d98 360b cef2 f863 ed54 8aa4
b0a9 6ed1 a2bb 8449 346f 1a7f f431 b8cf 95e3 b372 b0f5 c8a9 5ae1 622f d59f
c990 fd6d 3611 bc1e d842 82c7 c112 27d8 8b1e f3d8 f769 a10c d4f7 6360 dea4
f6cf feb3 e8c6 c72b 7b4a 03dc 00c4

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBNC/Bm9eed+DWkqwBAQGeNwP+I857P9Tf5fJU6O6ahI3uvxmgM1jFTzJH
E05r7vhOX7oZnosUhYVni7BpYwlfusEyWFs1TzPgDDxnPveNi36mDwSEoD17A0wP
fH4767MUHkNHaVntLBbHBCbKytQKarZC0X1eLa5rvg76WJtP5WBooyLkDbURrJuR
jjQgifCV7hg=
=PIRT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From mccaskill at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 29 09:48:53 1997
From: mccaskill at mindspring.com (Tom McCaskill)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:48:53 +0800
Subject: cyphernomincom
Message-ID: <199709291520.LAA01295@borg.mindspring.com>



Does anyone know where I can download a copy of the cyphernomicon.  I 
found a web page where I can read it, but I'd prefer one text file 
that I can read with out being online

Thanx
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.7.1

mQCNAzLizK4AAAEEAJ0uBc2mH6b7rAmHBFyHpk92is55ZMFanLqdiRU6iyut8v7u
70CNpvVlnlFsHFjhqgvdkJeuDTF8PselBGv6VkvYXVxKlQTyLvxYLJYuY1zrefah
fFF/6i3v2FAOtBUp2/oEMmw9QMA8+1FWJXsuYkz0toVDq+xdGzVLXWU23HQ/AAUR
tCdUb20gTWNDYXNraWxsPG1jY2Fza2lsbEBtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbT6JAJUDBRAy
4s1SNUtdZTbcdD8BAcHTA/9eDI+2Yx5tm0ZpfPaYq8vq/GliEUai7Vl4IGCYEPwo
SK4zKbx1HwAKgBy396EDK1RECtpekKLbz5XuUNkl77zwwQsQ+dTTSJoeO7ArCmea
ZeJ5kQoNn2Qt+d7KcMK0zCUAKt1zVX8V2EWt01vw8yJi88KC5e3uLmLvpgLLV3iw
Cg==
=Weyw
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From usura at sabotage.org  Mon Sep 29 10:11:48 1997
From: usura at sabotage.org (Alex de Joode)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:11:48 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709291643.SAA05265@basement.replay.com>



[..]
: Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some spare parts
: theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200 per month, or even
: $5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to 25% of worldwide remailer
: traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not much.  I would say this is due
: mainly to the user interface.  Making remailers more difficult to use by
: adding Ecash is not going to increase traffic significantly.

Basicly most of those 3400 message cracker handles daily are cover trafic,
a big chunk of the rest is from people "playing" around with the remailer,
then there are those few that needs some form of anonimity so they can inform
a mailinglist/postmaster/complaints department, and then maybe once a week
or so there is that message that would be paid for if remailers were for pay.

So in short, if remailers were to be paid for, traffic would halt.

--
  Alex de Joode | usura at SABOTAGE.ORG | http://www.sabotage.org
	Sabotage Internet: Your Internet Problem Provider.






From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Sep 29 10:24:43 1997
From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:24:43 +0800
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199709291350.GAA27599@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = " cpunk mix remix pgp hash ksub esub latent cut ek reord post";
$remailer{'redneck'} = ' newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = " cpunk mix pgp ksub hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = " mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = " mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = " mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer at crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 29 Sep 97 6:47:20 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config at nym.alias.net             ####*####*+#     1:27 100.00%
jam      remailer at cypherpunks.ca          ++++++*++***    25:44  99.96%
redneck  config at anon.efga.org             **#*#+#*####     3:20  99.95%
cracker  remailer at anon.efga.org           +*++++++++++    21:17  99.94%
cyber    alias at alias.cyberpass.net        ****- *++***    11:05  99.87%
winsock  winsock at rigel.cyberpass.net      -__.----.---  9:27:51  99.86%
neva     remailer at neva.org                - -------**-  3:02:03  99.79%
hera     goddesshera at juno.com             -----------   5:50:56  98.89%
replay   remailer at replay.com              ******* ** *     3:58  98.77%
squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de                ----+----   2:58:39  98.57%
mix      mixmaster at remail.obscura.com     ****-**+ -**  2:51:11  98.53%
reno     middleman at cyberpass.net          -+-+-- -  +   1:20:11  97.13%
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org         ----------    4:05:18  91.99%
arrid    arrid at juno.com                   --.-----      9:26:00  83.33%
valdeez  valdeez at juno.com                               4:58:22  -3.13%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien






From toto at sk.sympatico.ca  Mon Sep 29 10:27:31 1997
From: toto at sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:27:31 +0800
Subject: Defamation of Indefendants
Message-ID: <342F299E.76D@sk.sympatico.ca>



I downloaded a copy of the 'Declaration of Independence' off of the 
FBI web site and it began with,
"We, the elitist, undemocratic privacy terrorists..."

The CypherPunks list always quotes it as, 
"We, the people..."

Someone's pulling my leg, aren't they?
Well, it's not funny, so cut it out!

Toto







From bs at dev.null  Mon Sep 29 10:42:11 1997
From: bs at dev.null (Bubba d'Shauneaux)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:42:11 +0800
Subject: InforWar 23 / TEXT
Message-ID: <342FBE2D.77EF@dev.null>



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Non-Conspiracy Theory

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Non-Conspiracy Theory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Player To Be Named Later glanced quickly over his shoulder, to make
certain that no one was paying any particular amount of attention to him.
In one swift motion, he stepped sideways into the telephone booth, and began
removing his clothes. Seconds later, he emerged from the telephone booth�as
The Real Guy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Turn to your left, please." the police photographer sounded bored. As soon
as he had finished with the flasher, he was off-shift and headed straight
for The Stone Fox nude club to watch his favorite ladies engage in legalized
flashing.

The prisoner smiled as he saw the lady cop waiting to take him downstairs
for fingerprinting checking out his firmware.
"I told you I was The Real Guy." he said, as the woman looked away,
blushing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

FBI Calls Privacy Extremists Elitist
(09/25/97; 4:30 p.m. EDT) By David Braun, TechWire

MONTREAL -- Extremist positions on electronic encryption are not only
threatening to normal law enforcement, but they are also elitist and
non-democratic, said Alan McDonald, a senior counsel member with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, at the International Conference on
Privacy in Montreal on Thursday.
�
Absolute positions on privacy were "pernicious on several levels,"
McDonald added, in an attempt to daemonize citizens who value their
privacy and resent attempts by government to build a surveillance state.
�
Extreme privacy positions were ultimately elitist and nondemocratic in that
they
presumed the views of a knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt the
views of the nation's elected officials and the Supreme Court, McDonald
said. He added that the elitist and non-democratic founding fathers had
established this cursed tradition by their misuse of the term "we the
people"
and that it had taken many years to set things straight.
�
Extremists presumed that the citizens could not trust the elected
government and the Supreme Court to make decisions or to correct
mistakes if any are made, McDonald said. He told those present that
if the Waco investigation had shown the massacre of the Branch
Davidians to be a mistake, then the Supreme Court would have ruled
that the government must bring those killed back to life.
�
McDonald said efforts in the United States to enhance effective law
enforcement search and seizure capabilities had proceeded without
harming legitimate privacy concerns. He stated that anyone who
found this hard to believe could ask FBI Director, Lying Fuck Louis
Free to confirm his statement.
�

Notwithstanding the substantial threats posed by national and
international organized crime, drug cartels, and terrorists, the United
States had remained true to its Constitutional moorings, and its
commitment to a system of ordered liberties, McDonald said.
Handouts were given to those in attendance, showing that most of
the drug czars and terrorists were concentrated in short stretches
of Interstate highways where local law enforcement agencies were
seizing their vehicles and money at an astounding rate, given the
fact that almost all of them had gone to great lengths to disguise
themselves as ordinary, everyday citizens.
�
"When people don't know much about electronic surveillance, they are
fearful of it. But when they know Congress passed laws and the Supreme
Court reviewed them and that there are numerous constraints and
procedures, then it makes sense to them. It seems rational and
balanced," McDonald said.
He add that the way that the elitist, non-democratic privacy extremists
rant and rave, you would believe that law enforcement agents went
around sticking toilet plungers up their assholes, or something.

The Real Guy reviewed his changes to David Braun's TechWire article. He
decided that his 'enhanced' version more clearly expressed McDonald's views
in a way that the common man could understand-or, the common 'person' if
they were one of those Left Coast troublemakers.

It was going to be a long and difficult task, but The Real Guy knew that it
was up to himself to bear the burden of informing the Real World � that
there was, in fact, no grand conspiracy, secret or otherwise, aimed at
bringing the world totally under the domination of the Evil One.
The biggest problem of bursting the bubble of the paranoid lunatics running
around stirring up the rabble with their far-fetched allegations, was that
the potential for their claims being true could be easily substantiated by
the real facts, as they existed.
Thus, these troublemakers could play on the irrational fears of the sheeple
in an attempt to undermine the years of effort that had gone into convincing
them to trust authority and to view their government as benevolent public
servants working in the best interests of the citizens who elected them.

The Real Guy decided to make a list of the issues he would have to address
in order to build a solid foundation for his non-conspiracy theory.

He began with a series of small, local items from the alternative presses
around the nation, knowing that much of the power of the world-wide
conspiracy theories being proclaimed were built upon comparisons that the
common man could understand.

For instance, there was an article on people who spent hundreds of thousands
of dollars campaigning for a $20,000 per year position on the Austin Water
Board. The article went on to document how those who were elected to the
Water Board were then in a position to make decisions affecting
multi-million dollar land development projects, and how they all became
filthy rich during their tenure on the Water Board.
The Real Guy recognized this as just one of the many mean-spirited attempts
to slander successful people who had spent mountains of money to gain a
position where they could be of service to their community, in order to
repay the community for the millions of dollars that they would be making in
the future through graft and bribery.

Then there was a state project involving the four-lane highway outside a
small town in Kansas which went�well, pretty much nowhere, actually.
Tens of millions had been spent on its construction before someone pointed
out that there was really no need for the road, and that it was a tremendous
waste of taxpayer money, since there was really nowhere to go in that
particular direction, and nobody who wanted to go there. And, just because
the politicians and businessmen involved all made vast sums of money in its
construction before the project was halted, the skeptics assumed that there
was something more involved than an honest mistake by well-meaning people.

On a federal level, events could also be misconstrued by those who aimed
their misanthropic cynicism toward using the details surrounding the history
of the government as building blocks to suggest nefarious secret agendas
going on in the political background.
These conspiratorial FUD artists would get great mileage out of such simple
coincidences as the only Catholic US President being assassinated in the
heart of the Baptist bible belt; the Vice President under a President facing
impeachment being removed to put in place a politician who would pardon the
criminal after assuming his office; the head of the CIA accomplishing what
the head of the FBI was never able to do-assume control of the nation.

The Real Guy had his work cut out for him in a variety of areas which were
intertwined with one another, and which all provided fertile ground for the
cynics to plant seeds of doubt as to the honesty and integrity of those who
had seized control of the reins of power.

One of these areas was the media.
Certainly, once mesmerism, or hypnosis, had become a recognized method of
manipulating human consciousness, it provided fodder for those who thought
that people seeking power and wealth would stoop so low as to use this for
private gain, at the expense of the masses. When it became commonly known
that 'bad' people had developed this new mind-altering technology in the
arena of 'brainwashing,' then it was only a matter of time before the
naysayers would try to associate honest, free-enterprise advertising with
this evil, mind-manipulation technique designed to change the orientation of
people's thoughts and perceptions.
When many of the most successful advertising experts moved into the
political arena, it gave the paranoid even more food for feeding their
proclivity for mistrustful mental machinations.

When commercial advertising proved the tremendous financial rewards that
could be obtained by directing the public's attention in the direction of a
desired perception and opinion of a commercial product, there were,
naturally, a few bad apples who took advantage of this mind-influencing
technology to lead the public to believe things which were not, in fact,
true, with the goal of enriching themselves at the expense of others.
Fortunately, most of the evil thieves who became rich by using the power of
advertising to defraud the public used their money to better themselves,
often running for public office in order to make amends for their past
misconduct.

Again, the cynics would try to twist the facts to intimate that the many
thugs, thieves and other assorted criminals who rose to prominent positions
in corporate and political areas was an indication of the perversion of
democracy by powerful financial figures who had learned to manipulate public
perception via media spin-doctoring.
This view, fortunately, was put to rest when a criminal felon who had
amassed a fortune in the bootlegging business during Prohibition used his
ill-gotten gain to provide the American people with a President who
epitomized the American dream.

The handsome, photogenic youth with the all-American family proved the
triumph of reality over spin-doctoring by being everything that the citizens
could hope for, and more, even to the point where his royal court was given
the name Camelot by the media.
As a war-hero, he atoned for his father's sin of doing business with the
Nazis during the war in which he fought against them. As a man with a
beautiful and dutiful wife standing beside him, at his beck and call, he
atoned for the fact that he was screwing the living shit out of a variety of
women ranging from movie stars to secretaries. As a man who was often
photographed playing with his beautiful children, he atoned for the fact
that he was sending American troops to a foreign country to kill their
children.

The Real Guy reread his last paragraph, thinking that perhaps there was
something a little askew with the logic in it, but since he couldn't put his
finger on what it was, he decided to review it later, when his mind was
fresher.

Regardless, he felt that another issue he would need to tackle in order to
take the wind out of the paranoid conspiracy theorists' sails was the
increasing lack of hard-core investigative journalism in the mainstream
press when it came to events involving government malfeasance.

A few of the wacky weirdoes playing their conspiracy games attempted to
point to the lack of solid reporting in certain areas of major news stories
as evidence of an ongoing cover-up of nefarious activities by people with
shadowy agendas.
One example was the absence of any reporters doing serious research into the
reason that a large number of law enforcement related personnel seemed to be
absent from the scenes of crimes that took place in their regular
workplaces, including the BATF agents at the site of the Oklahoma City
bombing of the Murrah Federal Building.

Rather than being part of some grand conspiracy, The Real Guy saw this as a
simple issue of market-place economics. Media giants realized that their
readers and viewers would much rather have reporting resources centered on
matters of more interest to them, such as researching the facts behind the
death of Natalie Woods. They would want to know who was present at the media
event, who wasn't there, what they were wearing, what everybody had to eat
and drink, who was fucking who, and what color the drapes were on the yacht.
If the public had more interest in the presence of celebrities at the site
of a celebrity death than they had in the absence of law enforcement agents
in charge of preventing bombings at the bombing of their own workplace, then
it was certainly not the fault of the media.
If major drug dealers would bring their planes into Florida during the Miami
Dolphin football games because they knew the Customs agents would pay more
attention to game instead of intercepting drug smugglers, that was not the
fault of the media.
'Saving the children' was important, but not important enough to miss 'the
game.'

The Real Guy knew that he would also have to address the entertainment
media's movement toward providing more and more programs canonizing law
enforcement agencies and officers, and paying tribute to the benefits of
living in a surveillance state.

People didn't want to see pictures of darkies getting toilet plungers shoved
up their ass. They wanted to see pictures of white officers calling darkies
'Sir.' before they violated their Constitutional rights and then imprisoned
or shot them. The public wanted to see footage of darkies being rousted in
cars with bad mufflers and imprisoned for possession of a joint-not pictures
of people of all races being shaken down and having their money and
possessions confiscated for possession of the same joint (after the darkie
had been booked and printed).

The paranoid conspiracy theorists railed against the media's portrayal of
LEA's as righteous crime fighters who killed and imprisoned only 'bad'
people who were going to do terrible things to mom, her apple pie, and the
flag. The Real Guy knew that the media was only trying to present a balanced
picture of virtual reality for the public, since they got to see the LEA's
murder men, women and children on the news, so there was no need to
replicate this and their other atrocities in the field of entertainment.

The Real Guy recognized that the media's prime purpose was to serve as the
new, improved opiate of the masses. Since it was impossible for people to
live in real safety and security in the Real World �, the media was burdened
with the responsibility for assuring that they could do so in the Virtual
World � of Digital Reality �.

The Digital Revolution � was designed as a gentler, kinder revolution which
would subtly replace Analog Reality with Digital Reality �, without the need
for violence and bloodshed, except in cases of Thought Criminals who
stubbornly refused to accept the authority of the Mind Police, acting in the
legitimate interests of Attitude Enforcement.

The Real Guy knew that if there indeed was a conspiracy between the secret
government and the media czars that one could expect to find hard evidence,
such as a TV show that represented the FBI as an organization whose focus
was to protect children from their parents being duped or forced into making
their children vulnerable to drug-dealing, terrorist pedophiles, thus
needing concerned federal agents to 'save' their children.
Well, OK�maybe that is a bad example, since that was the plot of the first
episode of the C-16 TV series about an elite FBI team.

The more the Real Guy tried to find examples of LEA's being portrayed
realistically, whether local, state, federal or military, the more it became
obvious that he would be unable to prove his non-conspiracy theory directly,
since the entertainment media's portrayal of them was so obviously
one-sided.
Instead, he decided to point out the flip-side of the argument-namely, that
if there indeed was a secret conspiracy linking the secret government and
the mainstream media, then they would not allow the conspiracy theorists to
also state their case in a subtle, subliminal manner on the airwaves of
America.

Yes�that was the way to go.
Rather than trying to prove a negative, he would provide positive proof that
the wild-eyed conspiracy theorists were also allowed media exposure to
promote their own view of reality and virtual reality.

Well, not The Real Guy, himself, since he was not really suited to the task,
but ? the Lunatic would be more than up for the job.
He headed back for the telephone booth where he had left his clothes, taking
along the aluminum foil hat that would allow ? the Lunatic to work without
outside interference. It was going to be a long night, but at least he had
plenty of Scotch and butts to help counterbalance any side effects that ?
the Lunatic's medication might be having on him.

In an important project such as this, balance was important.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Mon Sep 29 11:38:09 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:38:09 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F38@tceis5.indy.tce.com>



First, some axioms:
1) Remailers help defeat traffic analysis.

2) The remailer network is small, because there is no commercial
incentive.

3) Traffic through remailers is politically and commercially sensitive.


These axioms lead me to argue that, in the current worldwide political
climate, the most that can be expected is that the remailer network will
expand only by commercial but underground remailers accepting anonymous
digital cash on a per-message basis.  Why?:

1) Commercial -- because most people don't have enough spare resources
to devote them to an effort of this magnitude.

2) Underground -- because in most of the world, there will be a category
of messages that the local government will find unacceptable.  If the
remailer is in the industrialized part of the world, these governments
will have the resources to crack down on the remailer, possibly
comprising the remailer system in the process.  (Remailers in
non-industrialized or semi-industrialized areas will not be stable
enough due to infrastructure problems.)

3) Anonymous digital cash on a per-message basis -- because anything
else is subject to government and/or commercial/organizational coercion.
Keeping accounts at several remailers will mark you as surely as if you
advertised the holding of these accounts on your Web.  Per-message
anonymity of payment is the only way to significantly increase the work
factor of those trying to break through your veil of anonymity.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"






From sandro at pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br  Mon Sep 29 11:53:23 1997
From: sandro at pop.hsbcbamerindus.com.br (Sandromar Ferreira)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:53:23 +0800
Subject: EVSK Algorithms
Message-ID: <342FF198.446B6EA1@bbamerindus.com.br>



Hy all,

    Does anybody hear about EVSK(EverSystem Secret Key) Algorithm ?

Sandro.






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 11:56:45 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:56:45 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> Nonsense.  Type 1 remailers offer a certain level of security.  It is
>> suitable for many applications.  Type 1 remailers require a fairly
>> determined attacker to thwart.  They would certainly keep you safe
>> from the IRS, but maybe not the NSA.
>> 
>> Even if you were running a child kidnapping ring and failing to report
>> the income, you would be pretty safe using Type 1 remailers.  The NSA
>> would never take the chance of revealing their capabilities just to
>> save a few kids.
>
>I disagree. The entire Type 1 networks can be trivially analyzed. It
>doesn't require an NSA for this. A single person that understands mixes
>and a few hackers to compromise some of the upstream, downstream servers,
>not even the remailers themselves, could do it.
>
>Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more.

Please pardon my ignorance, but could you elaborate on this attack?
Assuming the user's machine is not compromised, in which case the game
is over, whose machines are being broken into?  Are you saying that
The Enemy just watches the messages going in and out of a particular
site and then watches the site where they suspect the messages are
going?

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 12:41:42 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:41:42 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <0bb7778506322930a442f6e29c225ad2@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
>interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.

Isn't this the list for people who get out of hand?  Maybe I'm in the
wrong place.  ;-)

>I've asked the question before, Why would remailer operators want to
>accept Ecash?

I guess "to make money" is obvious.  Remailer operators may also want
to help get some kind of cypherpunk economy going.  Right now the
relationship between remailer operators and users is asymmetrical.
They provide and we use.  It would be better if the users could help
out the remailer operators, too.

And, if we can really get a profitable remailer market going, then it
becomes much easier to get people to start remailers, for instance, in
other countries.  Given certain political developments, we probably
want to get a lot of the remailer network established around the
world.

>After seeing the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin (sic), I
>to rephrase it, why does *Mr Catsin* (sic) want remailer operators to
>use Ecash?

Monty Cantsin wants the whole cypherpunk thing to happen.

Aside from the benefits of getting the remailer network going, there
is also great benefit to getting a small community using ecash
regularly.  Once that happens, we can start to find other services
that community can use.  From there ecash could become a pretty hot
item.  Once something like this starts to take off, it can take off
very quickly, especially where money is involved.

As for "conflicting messages" what you are probably seeing is
different ideas and (maybe) a little learning.  It's good.  It's
healthy.  I'm trying to find a way to make stuff work.

>The first answer I got was so that remailer reliability could
>increase.  The theory as I understood it was that remailers were run
>like a hobby, not a business, so the money would be an incentive to
>bring in professionalism.  So I proposed, and documented, that the
>minimum level to achieve this would be a $50K investment over a
>year's time.

Your proposal seems to be intended to show how this is impossible.
Well, it's not impossible.  You and many other people have already
sunk the costs.  Accepting money is just one more little step forward.

If you are arguing that the day after you accept money you won't make
a profit, that's probably true.  But, since you're volunteering
anyway, what's the big deal?  If you are arguing that there's no way
anybody can ever make a profit, then you are talking about something
which is simply unknown.

We will probably have to do other things to get the remailer network
really going.  And we will do them.

>Making remailers more difficult to use by adding Ecash is not going
>to increase traffic significantly.

Remailers that accept ecash can also accept free mail, although it
might be a good idea to offer premium service to the paying customers.

>>I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop
>
>In my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong, this is a seriously
>messed up comment.

No, it's a professional comment.  Amateurs always underprice
themselves.  Then, they discover they can't make money at their low
prices and go under.  Try to price it as high as you can, make some
money, and grow wealthy.  If you get a lot of resistance, you lower
the price.  This works.

>A quarter per message is too much, much less a quarter per hop. A
>price of 1/100 of a penny per message is closer to a proper
>valuation.

Let's say you have ten hops in your chain.  That costs one tenth of a
cent.  Are you seriously claiming that many people wouldn't pay more
than one tenth of a cent to avoid being harrassed, persecuted, or
prosecuted?

To say that a remailer is just like e-mail and should be priced the
same is like saying a bank is just a warehouse for money.

What remailer operators are selling is trust, privacy, and security.
We the users trust them to conceal our traffic flows and our
identities.  Sometimes this will save our lives.  That's worth a lot
more than one tenth of a cent, isn't it?

What is more, markets where trust is involved tend to very good for
the people who are already established.  You are not going to save a
dime and risk your life or fortune.

>But the problem here is in the pricing model.  It should not be
>transactional unless to encourage the very casual user.  A pricing
>model should be flat rate.

This has already been covered.

1. A flat rate which results in associating all messages with one
account is unacceptable, even if the account itself is anonymous.

2. This implies that some sort of blinded credential will be used.

3. Ecash is already a blinded credential and the software is already
written, and it is probably easier to use than a blinded credential
anyway.

At best, the transaction costs of ecash and some other blinded
credential are the same.  The only reason fixed rate deals are good is
because it lowers the transaction cost.  This will not work with
remailers because it defeats their purpose.

Unit pricing is always preferable when transaction costs are free
because the lighter users of the service don't end up paying for the
heavy users.

>The point I have never gotten past is how you expect a payment system
>to change the level of service?

Trade is a good thing.  "If you will do this thing, I will do this
other thing for you."  All sorts of things result from this.

If remailer operators were making some money, maybe not even a lot, it
would certainly make them a little more interested in finding ways to
get people using remailers.  Many of these ways we haven't been
thought of yet.

>The next point I'm still shaking my head over is what about remailer
>services is not up to your standards?

It may be that the remailer network is better than I thought.  You
claim no messages are lost, but I have yet to confirm that this is the
case.  Nobody else seems to know what the remailer statistics mean.

Alex de Joode and you both say that the latencies result from message
reordering.  This also remains to be confirmed.

But, even if the existing network of remailers were perfect in every
way, we could still have more of them.  I would like to have hundreds
of remailers to route my traffic through and that will not happen
through a volunteer effort.

>If anything, people would pay to add latency, not to take latency
>away.

Now you're getting it!  Yes, people will pay for service and special
features, even special features that Monty Cantsin might not pay for.
(Until properly educated, that is.)

>  >Remailers are used by a small highly specialized market of perhaps
>  >a few hundred people.
>
>They encompass millions of users.  Millions of users who want a
>remailer, but will not tolerate the level of entry required for a
>Type-I or Mixmaster remailer.  Until client software can be improved
>and made as easy to use as an integrated spelling checker, the
>"advanced" remailers will have no true market share.  (Oh, I forgot.
>Most of the world uses email clients without integrated spell
>checkers.)

It is such a mistake to worry about the mass market right now.  Do you
have $10 million to mount a nationwide advertising campaign?

That means we start with a small specialized group of perceptive
people and get things rollling.

It may even be the case that the product never hits the mass market.
But, if it is useful to a few million select people, it will still
work.

We talk a lot about "Joe Sixpack" on this list, but he's probably a
waste of time.  It's just too expensive to educate people who aren't
interested.

What should we do in this situation?:

>Cypherpunk: Hey, Joe, how are you doing?
>
>J. Sixpack: Well, me and my whole family were finally accepted to the
>Federal New Millenia Program and we're going down to the induction
>center tomorrow!
>
>Cypherpunk: Gee, I heard on the cypherpunks list that they just kill
>everybody.  Are you sure you really want to do that?
>
>J. Sixpack: Oh, you conspiracy theorists!  It's not that way at all.
>They have shuffleboard, jacuzzis, golf... I saw the brochure!  And
>they say you only have to work three hours a day and you get full
>medical coverage.  It's so great that most people never even come
>back for a visit!

I say we let him go.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Mon Sep 29 13:11:37 1997
From: jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 04:11:37 +0800
Subject: Crypto Legality Question
Message-ID: <199709291924.NAA24744@denver.ssds.com>



I have a theoretical situation which some person or
lawyer might know the answer to.  (not that lawyers are
not people...oh never mind).

Anyway..

ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.

Most of their network operations are in the US except one
of their offices in Ireland.

Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.

Question (2): If Canada is OK, but Ireland is out of the
question, can Irish employees simply procure a compatible
strong crypto package from, say, Finland?  This assumes
that the message traffic from the Irish office to the US is
not covered by commerce dept regs, just the export of
software.  Since software isnt being exported, is everything
legal?

Thanks,

Jim Burnes


Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes at ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting






From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Sep 29 13:27:26 1997
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 04:27:26 +0800
Subject: CypherSaber msg [was: Re: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door]
Message-ID: <19970929200002.13022.qmail@nym.alias.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Clarification on my previous postscript: I left the following a message
for CypherSaber CipherKnights with password "WriteYourCongressman"
starting thus:

> e91a 46d8 fba9 aaf5 927f 7a3f 1ded 8757 a741 4bb6 5568 3a5a f118 dc2b 11de

If you had trouble decrypting it, it's because those are words with
the most significant byte on the right.  I hate endianness.  Here it
is in bytes:

1a e9 d8 46 a9 fb f5 aa 7f 92 3f 7a ed 1d 57 87 41 a7 b6 4b 68 55 5a 3a 18
f1 2b dc de 11 b3 eb 73 e8 a1 ff 20 d5 ea 09 b6 52 c3 65 2a a4 14 3d fa be
3e 0f 09 ff 9a e0 26 ad 77 f8 84 aa 22 47 c3 8a 0a 77 ad 0a a0 48 1e bf 51
9c 1e 2b 4f a5 7e 8a 14 3e d1 b0 84 3a 52 88 db f9 ce d7 b5 73 66 40 16 d5
77 4d 95 03 e2 37 9c b7 cd 9a 07 61 ff ec bc 72 85 e9 de 0e f0 fc bd ea 03
b9 17 92 fc a0 5d b9 d7 5a 31 34 73 ba 98 0d 0b 36 f2 ce 63 f8 54 ed a4 8a
a9 b0 d1 6e bb a2 49 84 6f 34 7f 1a 31 f4 cf b8 e3 95 72 b3 f5 b0 a9 c8 e1
5a 2f 62 9f d5 90 c9 6d fd 11 36 1e bc 42 d8 c7 82 12 c1 d8 27 1e 8b d8 f3
69 f7 0c a1 f7 d4 60 63 a4 de cf f6 b3 fe c6 e8 2b c7 4a 7b dc 03 c4

Sorry for the confusion, if any.

	Salvo Salasio


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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Sep 29 14:06:47 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:06:47 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
[In reply to my claim that Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more].

> Please pardon my ignorance, but could you elaborate on this attack?
> Assuming the user's machine is not compromised, in which case the game
> is over, whose machines are being broken into?  Are you saying that
> The Enemy just watches the messages going in and out of a particular
> site and then watches the site where they suspect the messages are
> going?

Correct. The adversary watches messages move in and out of the mix. [This
is quite easy to acomplish, given the security or lack thereof, of much
network infrastructure]. I really don't have the time to write an intro on
this topic. Subscribe to
the Bugtraq mailing list for a year and you'll understand what I mean.

Once you have all the mail going in and out, you make use of the simple
fact that Type 1 messages must shrink with each hop. See the classic
essay "Mixmaster & Remailer Attacks" at
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html

IMHO, operating Type 1 remailers is doing the world a disfavor. It
provides a compromised technology  to a large number of people unaware of
the fact while, if anything, slowing down development and deployment of
better technology. Do you think it would have taken two (or more) years to
port Mixmaster to DOS had there been no Type 1 remailers? Of course not.

If you run a Type 1 remailer, do your users a favor: shut it down and
replace it with a Type 2.

 Thanks,
-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Mon Sep 29 14:18:27 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:18:27 +0800
Subject: Remailer Ecash Bounty
In-Reply-To: <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <60p4q2$giu$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



In article <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f at anon.efga.org>,
Anonymous   wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I, Monty Cantsin, will pay fifty dollars to the first operator of a
>remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which accepts
>ecash as payment to forward a message.
>
>Offer expires October 27, 1997 C.E.
>
>Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
>participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.
>
>Monty Cantsin
>Editor in Chief
>Smile Magazine
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
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>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Done.   accepts messages of the form:

---8<---8<---
::
Request-Remailing-To: luser at remote.host
X-Ecash-Payment:
 > -----BEGIN ECASH PAYMENT-----
 > 
 > oLmQgwAC5qGgiqCukIFPkIECkIEZkIEEkIEDkYQ0MBDNkIQ0XjVNkIFPkpJDeXBo
 > ZXJwdW5rcyBDYW5hZGGUlOy30rxoVWzRj2FUEDm3bTSxv3pJlJTaOaPuXmtLDTJV
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 > tRRh26dpImGlB3xoBymUE/hKW2LGnb8DplywwFAJCjOW8zExyXn7iCAye+qQgQGh
 > oKuQggIDk+A/UDTdM1Id10cZf2ETXN77AlJD9NEizrzCQaBEzzhFmjJoziqMbYZu
 > hyfjjKFbHP3JkMhfZ4UwhG57hpD6JM4QXJ5N+RgjLaN8f4LQlDtBVuki+FeWMDcA
 > ZjhLV1N//oKT4DDG016p9/EZCZZiFL7prITgWEusumlENbPKM8dPEPc4Wky5BQm9
 > k8BQpAFWmJ773qpzO3AioNjid9ZVefV8dXZ/QkmPGOSR+LZSudVJJm7+NcsJhnlv
 > NKQmg7/PrnCu+5CBCKGgq5CCAgST4CQKMhd8S1j63UhO9N8T1mEg10ffj+2C3Y6N
 > 39aI3LicANxLk7cLJzyGi9oT+yy22QBnQJO0eBA7t26hJVJOA7gLIr+lW49jgmQ+
 > 1Y17RKG8D4tOb20PzI2JFX5A0JpZfZPgrdcLz1LSmU8+si5Z0503x4qs8aDzJGu9
 > B2IyfstgkLxIZVDoagcbrxoiu++POrX0UFNE/KG5jJ4aYOuTj/48EN6Gv/VWigs6
 > pieDeUj+h1nWKIvn1jCaRTV1MhnYKU3ykIEQoaGh
 > -----END ECASH PAYMENT-----

This is the body of the message to be remailed.
---8<---8<---

The ecash payment should be in the amount of USD 0.25, made out to
"Cypherpunks Canada".  Messages sent to 
that do not contain a valid payment will be turned into heat.  The
PGP key for  is the same as that for
.  Do _not_ encrypt the ecash payment.

You can send your $50 to me in ecash, of course. :-)  Make it out to
"Cypherpunks Canada", and email it to me at .

   - Ian 






From rodger at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 29 14:35:33 1997
From: rodger at worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:35:33 +0800
Subject: Crypto Legality Question
In-Reply-To: <199709291924.NAA24744@denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929165449.006a6e50@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
>
>I have a theoretical situation which some person or
>lawyer might know the answer to.  (not that lawyers are
>not people...oh never mind).
>
>Anyway..
>
>ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
>subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
>
>Most of their network operations are in the US except one
>of their offices in Ireland.
>
>Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
>US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.

Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally, 
Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.

>Question (2): If Canada is OK, but Ireland is out of the
>question, can Irish employees simply procure a compatible
>strong crypto package from, say, Finland?  This assumes
>that the message traffic from the Irish office to the US is
>not covered by commerce dept regs, just the export of
>software.  Since software isnt being exported, is everything
>legal?

Yup. As you could imagine, US export laws are set up to try to avoid 
such compatibility whenever possible. This is also a reason why PGP 
Inc.'s recent shift to crypto services and away from relying on 
crypto sales exclusively is a relatively big deal. If everyone has 
the software, PGP Inc. can provide services to those folks a lot more 
easily. PGP 5.0, of course, is out there on the Net for the taking 
worldwide.

Cheers.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter at ctive Week
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From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 14:48:18 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:48:18 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Lucky Green wrote:
>There are a number of technical reasons why you really don't want to
>call the standard commandline Ecash client from a script to
>add/retrieve Ecash from Mixmaster remailer packets. The biggest
>problem being that you can fit only a few coins into the packet
>header as specified. There is no feature in the standard Ecash client
>that allows coin level control. DigiCash firmly resited and continues
>to resist adding it. A $0.25 payment could be paid as three coins or
>as 25 coins. The user has no control over this. For this and a number
>of other reasons, DigiCash's software is unsuitable for the task.

I've thought about this and I don't believe that it is a brick wall.

If the mixmaster remailers charged the smallest coin Mark Twain Bank
issues, then you would always get one coin and it would fit into the
packet.  I'm guessing this is a penny.  While this is not the ideal
method for deciding pricing, it would certainly work.

Even for larger amounts, there's probably a way to trick the Digicash
software into giving you the coins you want.  Let's say you are trying
to generate a pile of certificates in a certain amount that have less
than a certain size.  If you keep withdrawing the money and
redepositing it, you can keep the certificates which are the right
size and throw back the ones that aren't.  (You might have to find a
way to shake things up by depositing and withdrawing various amounts.)

There's probably a better way to do this.  For instance, we might
observe that every time ten dollars were withdrawn from the bank and a
certificate was generated for 25 cents, it only used three coins.  So,
we withdraw ten dollars, issue a 25 cent certificate, put back the
remaining amount, withdraw ten dollars, get another 25 cent
certificate, etc.  This is easily automated, of course.

Question: Where is the coin issuing decision made?  I assume that it
is made in the client software.  This, of course, is not under the
control of Digicash or Mark Twain bank.

Conclusion: Mixmaster remailers can probably use ecash with just a
little more work.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html


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From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Mon Sep 29 14:58:17 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:58:17 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <199709292133.XAA04564@basement.replay.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex de Joode wrote:
>: Then Mr. Cantsin seemed to go back to the all you need are some
>: spare parts theory of remailer operation.  Enormous profits of $200
>: per month, or even $5,000 per year.  Well, Cracker handles close to
>: 25% of worldwide remailer traffic of it's kind[1].  And it's not
>: much.  I would say this is due mainly to the user interface.
>: Making remailers more difficult to use by adding Ecash is not going
>: to increase traffic significantly.
>
>Basicly most of those 3400 message cracker handles daily are cover
>trafic,...

How do you know this?  If the remailer network works properly, you
should not have any knowledge of this at all.

>...a big chunk of the rest is from people "playing" around with
>the remailer, then there are those few that needs some form of
>anonimity so they can inform a mailinglist/postmaster/complaints
>department, and then maybe once a week or so there is that message
>that would be paid for if remailers were for pay.

This is like saying we should only encrypt messages which are really
secret.  You should encrypt all of your messages - then nobody can
tell when you have a secret.

If you are arguing that nobody wants their security, I hope you are on
the wrong list.  Many of us have gone to great effort to get some
security and to create tools for other people's security.  It is hard
to believe that it's worth a few nickels and dimes to us to expose our
traffic to Big Brother or anybody else.

>So in short, if remailers were to be paid for, traffic would halt.

Only if implemented in a foolish way.

Look, there's no need to say "my remailer is now a cash only remailer
no others need apply".  You can say, "people who pay cash get better
service."  Or even, "people who pay cash have a higher probability
of getting better service."

While I can't speak for the other remailer users, I certainly have no
problem shoving a little money towards the remailers.  Like many who
read this list, I am not poor.  I would like to be able to help defray
the expense of my traffic.  Hopefully other cypherpunks with jobs will
feel the same way.

The important thing is to get things rolling.  Are the remailer
operators going to get rich overnight?  Maybe not.  But we can
definitely get some market activity going and start generating some
real remailer traffic.

Let me now note that this dialogue has been somewhat surreal.  Am I
really begging the cypherpunks to use ecash?

It's a good idea to get ecash in now because it will be harder to
incorporate payment methods later when there is more infrastructure to
change.  (Look at the mixmaster problem.  It can't (according to
Lucky) be used for ecash without modification.)

However, it appears that part of the problem with the remailers is
that nobody uses them.  We should be making a concerted effort to do
so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
delays substantially.  It will also advertise the remailer network to
our friends who may not yet be cypherpunks.

The tools exist to do this.

It is somewhat ironic that we complain that Joe Sixpack won't use
tools that we will not (or even cannot) use ourselves.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 15:00:22 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:00:22 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
Message-ID: <2321ced0989df8c5fb475134a708618d@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert A. Costner wrote:
>The only thing I have heard you mention is latency, which is a
>feature programmed into the remailers.  If anything, people would pay
>to add latency, not to take latency away.

And another point: Nobody wants to add latency.  (There may be a few
applications, but they are rare.)

What people want is security and one way to get it (sometimes) is by
adding latency to their messages.

Ideally, you would send a message and it would arrive at its
destination in milliseconds with complete security.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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From ghio at temp0120.myriad.ml.org  Mon Sep 29 15:03:33 1997
From: ghio at temp0120.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:03:33 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <199709282107.XAA23460@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199709292137.RAA26571@myriad>



Robert A. Costner wrote:

> At first I thought some of the stuff Monty Cantsin was discussing was
> interesting, but it has gotten out of hand.  I've asked the question
> before, Why would remailer operators want to accept Ecash?  After seeing
> the conflicting messages coming from Mr. Catsin, I to rephrase it, why does
> *Mr Catsin* want remailer operators to use Ecash?

Cantsin feels that the remailers are too slow or too unreliable, and
believes that by offering a suitable financial reward, he can induce
someone to provide him with a more reliable service.  That may be so,
but this analysis neglects to account for a fundamental issue:

       Anonymity is one thing which you cannot have
       without also giving it to others.

In order for a remailer operator to afford himself the benefits of
anonymous communication by establishing and using a remailer, he must
allow others to use the remailer also.  This is why it is economical
(for some people) to operate free remailers.

It has been suggested that it would be possible to increase the number
of remailers by providing financial incentives to the remailer operators
in the form of a small fee per message relayed.  While that tactic might
achieve its stated purpose, it would simeultaneously reduce the number
of remailer users to those who were willing to pay the fee.  This
decrease in the number of users will serve to decrease the degree of
anonymity provided.  Consumers are unlikely to pay more money for a
service which provides less anonymity, thus making pay-per-message
remailers uneconomical.

That's the problem.  It has nothing to do with which payment system is
used.  The problem is the economics of the proposed pricing structure.



Monty Cantsin wrote:

> The ecash itself could come from a file of blocks of ASCII ecash made
> out to cash, which are automatically clipped by premail and then
> pasted into the message.  Easy, right?  Nobody even has to interact
> with the ecash application from the program.
> 
> So where do these files full of blocks of ASCII ecash going to come
> from?  People with ecash accounts can generate them by hand or by
> having a program call the ecash software to generate them.  Then they
> can give or sell them to their less fortunate friends who don't have
> an ecash account.

If that's how you want to do it, then just have the remailer make up
some ASCII blocks that it will accept as payment, and sell them to
people who sell them to their friends.  In fact I think Karl Barrus
ran a remailer with this setup a few years ago.  The question is,
what's the point?






From pooh at efga.org  Mon Sep 29 15:14:26 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:14:26 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709291246.HAA11540@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929175135.037f0324@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 07:46 AM 9/29/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
>must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
>saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
>your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
>accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
>figures to a true commercial enterprise.

Cracker is a colocated machine.  I've said this before.  The connectivity
charges includes space, electricity, air conditioning, back up power,
network management, bandwidth, and so forth.  For connectivity pricing, I
took the cost of a rack and prorated it for one machine.  Cracker is run by
Electronic Frontiers Georgia (EFGA).  EFGA is a non-profit Georgia
corporation.  No, I never said we were a commercial enterprise.  I merely
outlined what the equivalent cost to a commercial enterprise would be.  In
Cracker's case, that is $50K per year based on prorated prices, not the
full charges.

Of course I left out our donated legal time we have.  When used, that is a
chunk of money.  $50K per year would not begin to cover the costs of
operation for a standalone commercial remailer operation.  It does
represent what Cracker currently is using, including current donated
resources.

To run Cracker as a standalone commercial enterprise would take a lot of
ecash, and I don't think it would be feasible at this point in time.  For
an existing internet business, adding a remailer may be very inexpensive, a
cost of practically zero, except for the complaints.



  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From jim at mentat.com  Mon Sep 29 15:17:16 1997
From: jim at mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:17:16 +0800
Subject: Crypto Legality Question
Message-ID: <9709292137.AA18592@mentat.com>



Jim Burnes writes:
> ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
> subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
> 
> Most of their network operations are in the US except one
> of their offices in Ireland.
> 
> Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
> US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.

I suspect not.  Re-exporting US crypto to Ireland without a license
doesn't make it.  Perhaps the fact that they're only using it within
their company would make it OK, but I'd check with the attorneys.

> Question (2): If Canada is OK, but Ireland is out of the
> question, can Irish employees simply procure a compatible
> strong crypto package from, say, Finland?  This assumes

Very likely.  An American would want to be careful not to give any
Sekrit Data to the furriners, but perhaps the rules are different
for Canadians.

Easier yet, they can buy Canadian-grown strong Crypto from Entrust, for
example, and ship it both to their Irish and U.S. branches.  A guy from
Entrust told me last week that there was some consternation from Ft.
Meade when they first started shipping overseas this year, and after
they were shown the details and legalities they backed off.

	Jim Gillogly
	jim at acm.org






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Sep 29 15:56:49 1997
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:56:49 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Conclusion: Mixmaster remailers can probably use ecash with just a
> little more work.
We all know that. But there is no way to do this with DigiCash's client
software without going through some difficult hacks, if at all. It is much
easier to rewrite the ecash software. And again, I don't have the time to
explain why to somebody that missed years of discussion. Check the
archives. Or perhaps somebody with more time on their hand can write some
5-10 page intro. Sorry.


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"






From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 29 16:49:18 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:49:18 +0800
Subject: T1 insecurity (was Re: Remailers and ecash)
Message-ID: <199709292229.XAA03853@notatla.demon.co.uk>



shamrock at cypherpunks.to:

> Once you have all the mail going in and out, you make use of the simple
> fact that Type 1 messages must shrink with each hop. See the classic
> essay "Mixmaster & Remailer Attacks" at
> http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html

This describes a pure Type 1 without a remix feature.  This idea
due to Andy Dustman allows Type 1 and 2 remailers on the same
host to cooperate, hiding the message size and type.  Another
fault of pure Type 1 blocks when reused is that they are easily
recognisable as the same stage of the same block on different occasions.
You can do sneaky things with cutmarks, but it doesn't buy you much.
You can point your reply blocks to a message pool, so avoiding the
worst effects of Type 1.

You still (even with mixmaster) have the timing issues involved with
addresses that communicate regularly.

> If you run a Type 1 remailer, do your users a favor: shut it down and
> replace it with a Type 2.

Say this when there's a good way to receive anonymous email.
The sooner the better.  Meanwhile all Type 1 remailers should remix.

And as far as fitting ecash into headers is concerned: Ulf and I
think that you could cannibalize the 2nd header to contain the
cash. (We were talking about hashcash in fact.) You'd need to
avoid sending cash to remailers that wouldn't read it, and you'd
reduce the maximum number of hops permissible.  I was meaning to add
hashcash to these remailers.  Lucky's persuaded me not to do it to t1.

--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 16:54:08 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:54:08 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: <508c85c918a01b5621d03cf1d7b4298c@anon.efga.org>




Re: attack on marijuana and other plants:

>> That should read: ... free of drugs that cannot be taxed or
>> patented.
> I have one of the red ribbons they give to school kids during DARE week.
> It reads "Live healthy and drug free. Sponsored by Thrifty Drug Store".
> 
> The analysis is obvious.

A few drags...and I can see multiple ways out and beyond. So why
all this heat on this harmless and rewarding substance?



CM







From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 29 17:24:22 1997
From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:24:22 +0800
Subject: Fwd: Re: Quor's cypher
Message-ID: <199709292301.AAA04109@notatla.demon.co.uk>



nobody at REPLAY.COM: (21 Sep 1997)

> This is a really nifty encryption program.  It runs about half the speed
> of rc4, but seems much more secure.
>
> --- Forwarded Message:
>
> From: quor at nym.alias.net
> Subject: Re: tell me what you think of this...
>
> [snip]
>
> /* Qcypher.c */
>
> [snip]

Has anybody got anything good against this ?  I can get about
1/32 of the state with a simple form of differential cryptanalysis,
but can't see how to progress it beyond that.

My attack takes a long chunk of known text and looks for repetition.

ppppppppppppppp.11.pppppppppppppppppppppp
ccccccccccccccc.22.cccccccccccccccccccccc

When a two neighbouring p-c pairs are the same you can test
whether they have the same value of a and b.
(That is a_n == a_n+1 and b_n == b+n+1,   a != b usually.)

This involves 16 inputs to each byte - very cheap.
What I really want next is to know "a".

Because c is always known (it's only a counter) if you always knew
"a" you'd have a handle on "b" because only 2 (predictable) elements of
the state array change with each byte encrypted.


--
##############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant at notatla.demon.co.uk                      #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                        #
##############################################################






From ahoier at juno.com  Mon Sep 29 17:29:46 1997
From: ahoier at juno.com (A Hoier)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:29:46 +0800
Subject: PGP Key or Public Key Block
Message-ID: <19970929.185023.10294.0.ahoier@juno.com>



Which do I put in my e-mails to the list my PGP KEY OR PUBLIC KEY
BLOCK?????????????????  The PGP Block I got off thr NET on some1's web
site on this list and somebody gave me the PGP KEY!!!!!!  Will that
help????  Or do I use the Public Key to decrypt PGP Messages??  N E wayz
here they BOTH R!!!!!



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=jvrj
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6Ncywt/mOjVUin3j/ydB6f5AlOGkkuZo0aCXzPrSyTJfNu2jP3dbLohkBBhgiZ6z
BKti6Q7XALoVfLT9rcCQON3uYmIK0Dabu1PEJmvYQGVK7hV6YbUA+YJOOHZ//DJc
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RXMj1YISAA6/6QDViQCVAwUQMAnzbFVkk3dax7hlAQFzuAP+LNWzf6Nezdl75T5l
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on7s8e4y0dPzi5GdrXzccOoo53o0x3BNOKYTpka54YEHubAjKxpNTygJnrqZAIoD
L8Gj1AAAAQPo0wETmg0YupSZm9RlNYF8vjUHrsRW0Me7lWaqs8tfrDSCTxSU9Q2V
b/XAAI1AAWz+HEop3QHXl3xHtCTVfsfUo+x0X0ACnwMgF7cw3n1nyI7V1gEZbxiE
+DYRec0BnJVBv8IaENmGbydqrfCxDKdlm7gnsOZUPRWysueuweUABRG0LVJlcGxh
eSBSZW1haWxlciBTZXJ2aWNlIDxyZW1haWxlckByZXBsYXkuY29tPg==
=NciI
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Did I just make a mistake?  BTW, How  _DO_ I decrypt messages (PGP)?
Because I just Copy $ Paste the Keys to my letters because I dont have a
PGP PROGRAM!!!!!!!!!  Hope I didn't make a mistake!!!!!!!!!



ADAM HOIER






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 17:49:23 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:49:23 +0800
Subject: Ecash Remailer #1
Message-ID: <17eeea20e78a2498765e928b039c8bb5@anon.efga.org>



This is a test of the first modern remailer to accept ecash.  Sorry for the
inconvenience.

MC









From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Sep 29 17:57:02 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:57:02 +0800
Subject: Stew Baker on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970930002201.0081553c@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Will Rodger we offer Stewart Baker's letter
to the Chairman Bliley of the House Commerce Committee 
on the Oxley/Manton amendment to SAFE, sent just before 
the vote:

   http://jya.com/safe-baker.htm

Compare it to his public analysis of the FBI technical
assistance draft:

   http://jya.com/gak-baker.htm






From attila at hun.org  Mon Sep 29 18:24:11 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:24:11 +0800
Subject: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199709300054.SAA23704@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.30a 

on or about 970927:2154 
    Phillip Hallam-Baker  left his excrement:

+I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible  for a
+service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I  really
+don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to look to
+make that person serve jail time.

    I do not advocate infowar disasters or any such, but:

    there is _nothing_ lower than a snitch; you just qualified. a snitch
    is without honour, lower than the thief; lower than the law.

    may you enjoy your visit...  when do you go home to England or whatever
    sewer you crawled from?

        attila  --and check the key
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDBNdb04kQrCC2kFAQEtsAP+OQZYYXX8OsBLpodOlaOF3xlIfIs5Gc9N
5Lxozan8aPXFDn8MBHpLVBtUHHEmYSW6BM5y0oS7WbwMS7NqDX1JpGCuaU9iv45n
hw6XXrTMS2Q0/USLSbiUvi9iE0Ra6GvCTrlKIfeAdOtpYSpHfWrhZRqhIR+Owrpr
UxTJiL9C6XE=
=rg63
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep 29 18:24:25 1997
From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:24:25 +0800
Subject: [NTSEC] pgp 5.0 back door
In-Reply-To: <60ea750d816659dde629440a5798ee63@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970929175251.0305d3c4@popd.netcruiser>

At 12:17 PM 9/29/97 -0400, Anonymous wrote:
>The PGP Web site in http://www.pgp.com/products/differences.cgi has a list
>of differences between PGP 5.0 (personal PGP) and PGP 4.5.x (corporate
>PGP).  The corporate one includes a feature that the private one doesn't
>called "message recovery".  Given Phil's fanaticism outlined above, this
>presumably isn't any way to get at the plaintext without the user's
>knowledge or cooperation, but just what the heck IS it?  I can't find a
>description of the feature on-line.  The manual itself is on-line in PDF,
>which presumably answers this question for acrobat fans.  I see nothing
>about "message recovery" in the hard-copy PGP 4.5 manual.

It is my understanding that this is a setting to force 4.5 to encrypt all
messages to a specified key, which would be the corporate "message
recovery" key.  PGP 5.0 has a similar feature--a check box labeled "always
decrypt to default key" in the settings.  When this box is checked, the
default public key (usually one of yours) will always appear in the
recipient list when encrypting a message.  In 5.0, the default key is
visible in the recipient list, and it can easily be remived via drag and
drop.  I think that 4.5.x didn't show the key, and didn't allow the user to
remove it.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

Get your assault crypto before they ban it!

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html

Non-US PGP 5.0 sources:
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/
http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml
ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp
http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0

From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 29 18:36:33 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:36:33 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199709300125.UAA14206@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:37:58 -0400
> From: ghio at temp0120.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash

>        Anonymity is one thing which you cannot have
>        without also giving it to others.

This isn't strictly true. I can send an email from an anon account to my
friend Bob. At this point I know who I am, I know who Bob is, Bob knows who
Bob is, *but* Bob doesn't know who I am. Clearly I obtained anonymity
without anyone else gaining it. The only time that complete anonymity is
obtained is if both sender and recipient are using anon accounts.

> In order for a remailer operator to afford himself the benefits of
> anonymous communication by establishing and using a remailer, he must
> allow others to use the remailer also.  This is why it is economical
> (for some people) to operate free remailers.

Well a single user is going to make traffic analysis a bit simplistic.
Though this reducion to absurdity does serve to make a clear point about
anonymity and traffic level. Clearly large traffic flows are required to
maintane the anonymity for any usable length of time.

> It has been suggested that it would be possible to increase the number
> of remailers by providing financial incentives to the remailer operators
> in the form of a small fee per message relayed.  While that tactic might
> achieve its stated purpose, it would simeultaneously reduce the number
> of remailer users to those who were willing to pay the fee.

Only if the fee was something they would notice, milli-cent fees are not
something most people will notice. I think you are unwittingly getting near
the mark however. In short your comment about incentives to the operators,
include in there the users and you have a winning combination. The question
should be expanded thusly:

What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?

Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma anonymously are
not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply have no
interest in such activities. So, the question becomes:

What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good
for?






From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 29 18:42:47 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:42:47 +0800
Subject: Forwarded mail...
Message-ID: <199709300144.UAA14317@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:33:31 +0200 (MET DST)
> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> >Basicly most of those 3400 message cracker handles daily are cover
> >trafic,...
> 
> How do you know this?  If the remailer network works properly, you
> should not have any knowledge of this at all.

Because if a remailer is working correctly for each incoming message n + 1
outgoing messages should be sent. Of those n + 1 messages, n are cover
traffic and 1 is the actual outgoing traffic. It is clear that n should be
larger than 1 to be effective. Therefore we know that at least half of the
traffic out of a given remailer is cover there simply to waste our cpu
cycles because the complexity of traffic analysis rises by the square of n
(I believe, working from memory here).

> This is like saying we should only encrypt messages which are really
> secret.  You should encrypt all of your messages - then nobody can
> tell when you have a secret.

This raises an intersting point. How would a remailer system be set up to
handle encrypted email on both incoming and outgoing? In other words the
sender would contact the remailer with a key set and the remailer would then
send the results onward with individual recipients key sets. The only way I
could figure out to solve this in my playing around was to have a key server
that kept listings of all the parties keys. Is there a simpler way? I figure
the key server should not be the remailer machine.

> definitely get some market activity going and start generating some
> real remailer traffic.

Nobody expects to get rich but such an activity should at least be capable
of recompensing its owner and operators in an acceptable manner.

>From who and doing what? There has to be more than anonymous speech,
laundering cash, and avoiding credit analysis. But what?
 
> Let me now note that this dialogue has been somewhat surreal.  Am I
> really begging the cypherpunks to use ecash?

No, at least not from my perspective. What we are asking is what we should
be using it for? I certainly have very little I would say anonymously. I
believe the best way to stay out of jail and reasonably secure is to be know
by large groups of people who might lend sympathetic ears in times of need.
I don't promote violence or unnecessary boat rocking, BUT (and it's a big
one for me) I do expect those who I charge with certain duties to carry
those duties out within the bounds of the contract we arranged. One aspect
of this is that if the charge is very controversial and you are known to be
vocal a gag order might be enforced. In such situations he who has already
had their say is much better off because then people realize the impact
clearly. Just consider the reaction to the Canadian criminal speech ban and
the resultant web activity for a real world example. With that kind of press
I can guarantee that the Canadians, even with their Draconian beliefs in
civil rights, are not going to use that sort of tactic widely. Now here is a
use for a  free anonymous remailer.

> It's a good idea to get ecash in now because it will be harder to
> incorporate payment methods later when there is more infrastructure to
> change.  (Look at the mixmaster problem.  It can't (according to
> Lucky) be used for ecash without modification.)
> 
> However, it appears that part of the problem with the remailers is
> that nobody uses them.  We should be making a concerted effort to do
> so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
> everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
> delays substantially.  It will also advertise the remailer network to
> our friends who may not yet be cypherpunks.
> 
> The tools exist to do this.

Yes, but why would I?

> It is somewhat ironic that we complain that Joe Sixpack won't use
> tools that we will not (or even cannot) use ourselves.

I don't buy a screwdriver to sit and fondle, I buy it to use on screws...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Mon Sep 29 20:10:59 1997
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:10:59 +0800
Subject: Remailer Ecash Bounty
In-Reply-To: <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <60poh2$p82$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>



In article <60p4q2$giu$1 at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>,
Ian Goldberg  wrote:
>In article <86bf420d7b91c105780c596aac21863f at anon.efga.org>,
>Anonymous   wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>I, Monty Cantsin, will pay fifty dollars to the first operator of a
>>remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which accepts
>>ecash as payment to forward a message.
>>
>>Offer expires October 27, 1997 C.E.
>>
>>Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
>>participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.
>>
>>Monty Cantsin
>>Editor in Chief
>>Smile Magazine
>>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
>>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>Version: 2.6.2
>>
>>iQEVAwUBNC10kJaWtjSmRH/5AQEY5Af+PBBY0QU8ixNYgqIpWQkHEDf22lhVleaB
>>JJ81Pe4TCllk3KJ0WU8+B7fVdt3oQEzaZLKobQqP6NJOfXai3dwxc5C4MPQe+YGw
>>N6jQbcKetIwX7EUb2siKOq07W1hxVhYm6liYxeUHEBR8hWjCeUM1JiJ3IC3GALAi
>>bJ0mDhkhEIugYkfBXl2mBm4VjQRPWSt8GxqhWDneyn4maJjmOs1lco1WvGuLC+GA
>>fK1F9PnJIKZITzeAEjTB87H7LFxhy0eRuL+r9y8Fqw288bSkKC6aG//fTLOV7B8d
>>MeIXu2UHa2HuB/L1MWmAVFGyKfoI0xJqeXeWCNmrLRlcp6GdCrQgig==
>>=sNwa
>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>Done.   accepts messages of the form:

[snip]

Just to let you know, I received the payment from Monty.

   - Ian






From kent at songbird.com  Mon Sep 29 22:03:25 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:03:25 +0800
Subject: engineering infowar disasters (was Re: How the FBI/NSA forces can further twist SAFE)
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3430792F.6118@songbird.com>



Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote exactly what his handler told him to:
> On Saturday, September 27, 1997 7:57 PM, Adam Back [SMTP:aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk] wrote:
> > Reckon cypherpunks can knock up a few of those.
> >
> > So lets here some ideas for good photogenic infowar attacks which show
> > that the lack of crypto is dangerous.

> I suggest unless people want to hand the FBI an excuse
> to harass everyone that they don't enter into this discussion.

  The FBI already has a reason to harass everyone on the CypherPunks
list.
As cryptographers, we all fit the 'profile' of drug dealing, terrorist
pedophiles, and a Horseman to be named later.
 
> There are plenty of conspiracy laws on the book. Infrastructure
> attacks are illegal and exactly the kind of thing that gets long
> jail sentences.

  Breathing is illegal, for shit's sake!
  Name the people who have gotten long jail sentences for infastructure
attacks. Uuhhh...

> More to the point it is completely counterproductive. Even now
> there is probably some FBI junior waving Back's message in
> the air as if he has won the pools, probable cause for wiretaps
> I would say.

  I am sure you would know. 
  Let me give you a little bit of free advice, Phil, which will be worth
every penny you pay for it, I guarantee.

  Although the ignorant call me a government shill (except for Toto, who
calls me a 'schill'), I am actually merely a 'pawn' of the government.
They pay my salary, and I try to stick up for them when I can, but I am
not going to cut my own nuts off supporting what are obviously criminal 
insanities that they choose to perpetrate on the citizens.

  If you are going to be a government shill, beating their fascist drum,
no matter what the 'cause' of the moment, then at least try to pretend
that you actually have some interest in the CypherPunks list which goes
beyond advising list members to mind their p's and q's, wear a suit and
tie, and call people in authority 'Sir.'
  Also, it would help if your 'cease and desist' posts did not convey 
quite so much a tone of desperation, as it will only encourage those
shit-disturbers who are suspecting that they now have the government
on the run, and it is time to go for the throat.

> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible
> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I
> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
> look to make that person serve jail time.

  And you are going to fail...

  Nothing personal, Phil, but my system has been the target of hackers
since 1989, and I have learned to live with it, like a bad case of the
crabs.
  I do not wish to do harm to either the 'quick little devils' who live
within my pubic hairs, nor the nefarious entities who roam my system at
will. As long as they clean up their own mistakes, do not subject me to
undue harassment through their use of my system, or forget to pay their
union dues for hacking my system (there are so many of them that they 
had to organize), then I leave them the fuck alone.
  As a matter of fact, if one of the hackers roaming my system steps out
of line, the others take care of the problem for me. I can take a system
that has been hit by lightning and make it stand up and dance, but there
are children roaming my system who fix my mistakes for me, and leave 
documentation about their system fixes in my private email.

  To be rather blunt...if the government wants to have any hope at all 
in maintaining their grip on the citizens within their grasp, then they
must, like the Pharoh, kill all of the firstborn children of the God of
Computers chosen people.
  I violate a multitude of laws each and every single day. I shit on 
the shiny shoes of the LEA's each and every day. I am a doddering, half-
senile old fart who has probably lived long beyond my destined time, and
could well be imprisoned and persecuted for my imaginery crimes at any
moment.
  The mere fact that I am currently free to write this email without a
prison employee editing it before I hit the 'Send' button, is probably
a fairly good indication that the government is totally fucked if they
expect they are going to screw the younger generation through use of
a technology that the children understand, but the government does not.

  Governments fall for two main reasons:
1. They become two spread out to control their 'subjects'.
2. They start believing their own press. (i.e.-begin believing that
their own position of authoritarian infallability means that they no
longer have to tell 'good' lies.)

  A Player To Be Named Later, in a previous incarnation, pointed out
during the 'moderation experiment'/'censorship crisis' that the issue
being addressed was not merely one of censorship versus free speech,
but was a probing foray into the heart of InfoWar on the InterNet.
  Those truly behind the censorship crisis won the battle, but they
may well lose the war.
  They won the battle because they lost the censorship fight without
revealing that the true purpose of the attack was to test their ability
to engage the enemy without them discovering the real goals they were
striving for.
  They may well lose the war because they have trampled so much of the
Constitution with such ease that they believe that nobody will notice
when they track it into the bush and try to finish it off.

  Lying Fuck Freeh made the mistake of declaring his intentions, in the
belief that the past successes of fascism indicate that he will meet no
serious resistance in completing his Blitzkreig on the Constitution.
  The Nazis thought likewise, but their narrow world-view caused them
to fail to see that beyond the shores of Europe there existed a land
where people had tasted freedom and would fight to the death to defend
it for themselves and their children.

  The government currently holds all the cards, I freely admit.
  The government has laws in place that make every citizen a criminal
for one reason or another, and they have armed their coconspirators to
the teeth while disarming the citizens. The government controls the
media which rules the perceptions and opinions of the society that they
govern. The government has a million ways to 'get' the citizen who steps
out of line, and a million weapons to back themselves up.

  Although the government holds all the cards, they haven't noticed that
they don't have any 'hearts' in the deck.
  Perhaps the CypherPunks are the "elitist and nondemocratic" entities
that Alan McDonald (FBI) speaks of as presuming that "the views of a
knowing privacy cognoscenti should pre-empt the views of the nation's
elected officials." Yep, and we laugh at all the 'sheeple.'
  However, there comes a point where even the elitest CypherPunks begin
to realize that they have let down their guard and sat idly by as the
forces of fascism have stripped the citizens of their basic human rights
and liberties. And what the CypherPunks instinctively realize, which
the fascists don't, is that even the 'sheeple' will come to this same
conclusion, at a time that corresponds to their own understanding of
the issues of privacy and freedom.

  The CypherPunks are idiots!
  They are idiots because they still get suckered into believing that
basic human goodness and intellect will win out over the governmental
machine that has usurped the power of "we the people."
  However, there is an expression, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me
twice, shame on me." The CypherPunks are not 'total' idiots, and neither
are the 'sheeple'.

  Those who castigate Tim C. May for his 'broken eggs and all that' 
stance that decrees that perhaps it is time that we "Nuke DC" do not
realize that if he was indeed the cold-hearted assassin that they 
perceive him to be, he would have taken that stance a decade or so
ago.
  I, on the other hand, believe that it is a credit to his integrity
and his humanity that Tim has waited so long to say, "This is a line
that I cannot cross--no prisoners!"

  It took the attack on Pearl Harbor for Americans to realize that the
Dark Forces were truly striving to conquer the world--that it was not
simply a matter of 'other' people engaged in infighting against one 
another.
  When Lying Fuck Louis Freeh finally announced his true intentions,
Tim C. May was the first one to speak up and say that the time had come
when there was no turning back. The reason he was so quick to speak up
was that he already knew that the time had come, but he had the human
decency not to declare war until giving the 'enemy' every chance to
come to their senses.

  The mistake that the government is making with the sheeple is the same
mistake that those behind the censorship of the CypherPunks list made.
They assume that because you can fool someone once, you can fool them
twice.
  Unless the government has Terry Nichol's attorney in their back
pocket, like they did with with Tim McVeigh, they may have been much 
better off just leaving him be. Fool me once...

Kent (or so I would have you believe...)






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 22:35:29 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:35:29 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I, Monty Cantsin, will pay twenty-five dollars to the second operator
of a remailer on Raph's list to get a machine up and running which
accepts ecash as payment to forward a message.

Offer expires October 29, 1997 C.E.

Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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=ijWq
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From altbfl at dev.null  Mon Sep 29 22:44:09 1997
From: altbfl at dev.null (A Loser To Be Flamed Later)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:44:09 +0800
Subject: Crypto Legality Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970929165449.006a6e50@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <34307D9F.5D05@dev.null>



Will Rodger wrote:
> At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
> >ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
> >subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
> >
> >Most of their network operations are in the US except one
> >of their offices in Ireland.
> >
> >Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
> >US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.
> 
> Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally,
> Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.

  Yo, dude!
  If the company buys PGP 5.0, then their Ireland office can obtain
the freeware version from an overseas site, or have their Canadian
office send it to them.
  Freeware is legally exportable from Canada. (I lost my pointer to
the site that explains the legal implications, but Adam Back might
have it unless he is doing as many drugs as myself, and has lost
it, as well.)

  Also, there is a Canadian company which has a decent full-strength
crypto package, can't remember the name of their product, but if you
contact Dimitri, he can tell you, although he will also point out
that the commie ratfucking cocksucker Chris Lewis is connected with
the company.

  And, realistically, regardless of the source of the crypto package
a Canadian company uses, or the restrictions against its export,
unless the company makes a point of advertising their sharing of the
software with their Irish subsiduary, it would be a point of extreme
embarassment for Canadian officials to harass a Canadian company for
sending strong crypto to another member of the British Commonwealth,
even if it no longer officially exists.
  I know several companies that do so, and they have no problems.

A Loser To Be Flamed Later
Bienfait Bureau Squaw
Electronic Forgery Foundation






From nm at not.me  Mon Sep 29 23:13:15 1997
From: nm at not.me (Not Me!)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:13:15 +0800
Subject: Not Me!
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <343093C8.2E26@not.me>



Not Me!






From kent at songbird.com  Mon Sep 29 23:13:53 1997
From: kent at songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:13:53 +0800
Subject: Not Me!
In-Reply-To: <01BCCBA7.0FB66580.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <34309483.2252@songbird.com>



Not Me! wrote:
> 
> Not Me!

Not Me!






From anon at anon.efga.org  Mon Sep 29 23:45:58 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:45:58 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ian Goldberg wrote:
>Done.   accepts messages of the form:...

Congratulations to Ian Goldberg!  It is wonderful to have an ecash
accepting remailer up and running.  I would encourage those who have
ecash accounts to try out the ecash remailer and show Ian we
appreciate his running such a reliable system.  (Also, it's fun!)

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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QBfRjDIfeyd+kp9eNNJKxH2Joo6dQdAydPQhaMbJmhuy4vJT4yBr1w==
=Pej+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Sep 30 00:01:21 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:01:21 +0800
Subject: None
Message-ID: <9e4dfb5c1669c9170096cd969cd6bdf6@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I, Monty Cantsin, will pay five dollars to the second operator
of a remailer on Raph's list to give me a blow job.

Offer expires October 29, 1997 C.E.

Disputes are to be settled by Tim May.  If Mr. May declines to
participate, Monty Cantsin will decide.

This is not a forgery by that Canadian asshole.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

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onRBola4CkSOjF2AA+PhhGH4u9C7LQ/CGDAViFkoScgPoieyJBWgQYRBBJP3Nv7u
Tf3oqm7yt8s0rOiTBT5VRR7PzA5HaJCj/42KHkW1aAZnODtteZlg1g==
=ijWq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From fy at dev.null  Tue Sep 30 01:34:06 1997
From: fy at dev.null (Fuck You)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:34:06 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3430B584.60B6@dev.null>



Lucky Green wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> [In reply to my claim that Type 1 remailers are fun toys. No more].
> 
> > Please pardon my ignorance, but could you elaborate on this attack?
> > Assuming the user's machine is not compromised, in which case the game
> > is over, whose machines are being broken into?  Are you saying that
> > The Enemy just watches the messages going in and out of a particular
> > site and then watches the site where they suspect the messages are
> > going?
> 
> Correct. The adversary watches messages move in and out of the mix. [This
> is quite easy to acomplish, given the security or lack thereof, of much
> network infrastructure]. I really don't have the time to write an intro on
> this topic. Subscribe to
> the Bugtraq mailing list for a year and you'll understand what I mean.

  I run two Type 1 remailers on different machines which access
different
ISPs. I not only swap in/out messages between machines, I also send some
of the email via separate machines on separate accounts.
  The remail I handle is not super-clandestine stuff, it is mostly for
those who wish to post to health lists without insurance company narcs
gathering information they can use to fuck them out of their coverage.

  I also employ some tactics which I will not reveal, as my stance is
that one should proceed as if every spook in the world is monitoring
them, regardless of the level of security that may be sufficient if
one goes by surface appearances.
  If one is serious about anonymity, then one should always assume that
each and every remail contains life and death information that should
not be compromised. 

Fuck You
~~~~~~~~






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Sep 30 02:34:29 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:34:29 +0800
Subject: Crypto Legality Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970929165449.006a6e50@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199709292203.XAA00757@server.test.net>




Will Rodger  writes:
> At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
> >
> >ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
> >subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
> >
> >Most of their network operations are in the US except one
> >of their offices in Ireland.
> >
> >Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
> >US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.
> 
> Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally, 
> Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.

This is not the way I understand it.

You can re-export strong crypto from Canada, you just have to inform
the appropriate Canadian government department that you have done so.

So procedure is: 1) import software from US, 2) write appropriate
Canadian export department telling "I'm going to export blah to xyz
corp offices in Ireland", 3) export it.

That is, there is a loop-hole, you don't have to ask permission for
export, you just have to inform them you're going to do it.  (You
might want to check this out with a Canadian lawyer familiar with the
rules, and loop-holes).

So you informed them.  They can't do anything about it.  They won't
like it, but they don't have to.

I'm told Kerebos was exported by this route.  US -> Canada -> UK.
100% legally.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                  Part III

                                   InfoWar

                  Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

                     Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

                        by TruthMonger 

Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          InfoWar Table of Contents

   * Lenin's Parrot
   * Circumstantial Truth

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                               Lenin's Parrot
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. May pointed to the omelet that the orderly had placed in front of
Arnold. "This is your mind without drugs." he told his favorite patient.
The orderly took away the omelet and replaced it with a plate of scrambled
eggs. "This is your mind on drugs." Dr. May continued.
The orderly replaced the scrambled eggs with eggs 'over easy.' "This is your
mind being sodomized by New York City Police CypherPunks!"

The orderly grabbed Arnold and forced his mouth open, as Dr. May shoved the
eggs into it and forced them down his throat with a toilet plunger. Arnold
began gagging and choking, struggling to free himself, as the eggs hatched
and turned into chickens, filling his mouth, throat and stomach with
feathers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Good morning, Arnold." Melissa pulled his head out of the pillow and began
cleaning the feathers out of his mouth.
"It looks like you're having another fit. Have you been doubling up on your
medication again?"

Arnold stared blankly at the woman who was sitting on the edge of his bed,
wiping his face clean from the combination of slobber and chicken feathers
that made him look like an unholy mess.
"Doctor Melissa!" Arnold shouted with joy. He couldn't remember where he
knew her from, but he knew she was a good person-she was his friend.

Melissa helped Arnold out of bed, straightening his pajamas with great
concern for his appearance, knowing it would help him to retain his dignity.
"You don't really remember who I am, do you Arnold." Doctor Melissa said,
softly, eyeing him with great concern.

"No." Arnold replied, truthfully.

"Well," said Melissa, a widening smile breaking across her face, "do you
remember Boot War III?"
She kicked him in the groin as she shouted the words, sending Arnold falling
to the floor, clutching at his private parts, which were in immense pain.

Dr. Young entered the patient's room, smiling at Arnold's predicament. He
turned to his fellow physician with a smile.
"Good morning, Dr. Schultz. I see that you have welcomed Arnold back to our
little family."

Bending over to speak to the fallen Arnold, Dr. John Young spoke sternly to
him, saying, "You know that you can't stay away from the 'Home For the
Criminally Insane' for longer than your weekend pass permits. We have rules
here, Arnold. This is not an anarchy, you know. This is a government
facility."

Dr. Young turned and left the room, motioning for Doctor Melissa to follow
him.

Arnold was beginning to remember Doctor Melissa, and how she was working at
Nuthouse Number Nine, and then ran away with Bubba d'Shauneaux to join the
Circle of Eunuchs, and now she was back here, kicking him.
"You're a double agent!" Arnold said, bitterly disappointed and feeling
betrayed.

"Triple agent." Melissa whispered, slipping him his aluminum foil hat on her
way out of the room. She locked the door behind her.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

? the Lunatic had laid out all of the evidence he had gathered concerning
the Circle of Eunuchs' subtle presence that wound a long and scattered trail
throughout the media industry of the late 1990's.
He found it hard to believe that The Real Guy expected him to go along with
the plan to use evidence of the Magic Circle's influence on the mainstream
media as 'proof' that there was no grand conspiracy by secret agencies to
thwart the efforts of wild-eyed conspiracy theorists to shed light on the
dark undercurrents that run throughout society and government, at every
level.

? the Lunatic knew that he could provide a mountain of circumstantial
evidence that would provide an outline of the visage of the Magic Circle
which shone through the dark veil that the Evil One and his minions had
thrown over reality through their manipulation of the mainstream media. But
'circumstantial evidence' only served as 'proof' for those who already
believed.
This was as true for Mike Tyson as it was for O.J. Simpson, as it was for
Marv Albert.

And for the Circle of Eunuchs, as well�

? the Lunatic laughed like the psychotic maniac he truly was. He enjoyed
being a madman. It gave one the freedom to let one's mind wander into the
realm of forbidden thought, without guilt and without blame.
"I'm a fucking lunatic!" he shouted to the electronic monitors on the
ceiling above him. He knew 'they' were watching him. He knew that 'they'
would only allow him to divulge those things that they approved of to the
mass of humanity being imprisoned outside of the walls of the "Home for the
Criminally Insane," where they could be controlled and manipulated by
threatening them with the loss of their physical freedom.

"The fools!" he shouted at the ever-present 'they' whose physicality lay at
the end of the chain of electrons which they could use to spy on his body,
but not on his mind.
"They will call me 'mad' for telling them the truth, and you will call them
'fools' for hearing the truth and thinking it to be madness."

"You use me, I know." ? the Lunatic whispered into the hidden instruments
which were an open secret in the facility.
"I wear the hat of madness," he said, tipping his aluminum hat to his covert
companions, "and I dance the dance of the fool, for your amusement." he did
a pirouette which turned into a curtsey as he reached behind his back and
brought forth a bottle of "Bubba's Private Reserve" and a shotglass.

"But I have my moments�" ? the Lunatic said, with a sly wink, knowing that
the watchers would be launching into a scurry of activity to consult their
superiors about his possession of a forbidden substance.

? the Lunatic sat down in front of his keyboard, prepared to reveal all to
those who had ears to hear, and eyes to see.
He knew that he would be allowed his forbidden libation, just as he would be
allowed his forbidden thoughts-for his captors needed the words of truth he
would speak to serve as a threat to those who feared the freedom of
imprisonment in the 'Home For the Criminally Insane.' His captors feared
that if the masses did not hear the truth first, from a madman, that they
might hear it from the Saints, from the voices of reason who were hiding on
the outside, in the midst of the madness storming the land.

On the far side of the rubber walls around him, ? the Lunatic knew that
there existed a world in which Lenin's Parrot echoed the dangerous thoughts
of the "People's Czar" in the music that he used to whisper forbidden
socialist secrets to the children of the masses.
But, within the boundaries of free thought where the words of truth bounced
back to the ears of those who spoke them, Lennon's Parrot was a dirty bird
who spoke the forbidden words that made their owner a threat to National
Security and a target for surreptitious eyes and ears.

"No matter how many times you throw me into the rubber room," ? the Lunatic
spoke to his hidden captors, "I will always bounce back."

He laughed maniacally and began to type rapidly, as if his very life
depended upon completing the mission he had been assigned by forces beyond
his reach, pleading with him to use his madness as a protective cover to
spread the truth across the face of the earth, as the seeds of a madman who
cared not whether they fell on barren or fertile soil, but only that they
were spread far and wide, so that they might take root in the places where
there were cracks and crevices in the wall of evil that had been built
around the minds of mankind..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Circumstantial Truth
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You didn't believe A Player To Be Named Later, did you?" ? the Lunatic
said, as he typed, 'af;jdafkjeqruerjfurq2r09r9uriejroiureur�'

He would continue to type utter nonsense for hour after hour, as his
monitors became dazed and confused, little understanding that his speech was
for those who monitored him from a century in the future, capturing his
thoughts and opinions in order to better understand the details of the
history of the Magic Circle which lay at the foundation of their hope for a
future in which their minds would find freedom and their bodies would live
in liberty, beyond the tight grasp of the Evil One and the Dark Forces who
strove to enslave them.

"You can see through the deceptive trickery of his claims of precognition in
releasing information in Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet' which
would later be confirmed by independent sources�can't you?"
? the Lunatic was speaking directly to the skeptics who he knew would be
wracking their brains in order to find new ways to dismiss the growing
mountain of evidence that the Magic Circle not only existed, but that it
existed in every segment of society, leaving clues as to its existence
laying in plain sight, but shrouded in parables and in allegory.

"Presidents and Computer Gods don't involve themselves in the ranting of
lunatics writing subversive manuscripts for secret societies claiming to be
fighting for freedom from the Dark Forces existing as an undercurrent
throughout the world of impersonal technology. Every one knows that�"

"It's a game. It's nothing but a game. The LMBoyd sampler must have been
sent out before chapter 20 of 'InfoWar' was submitted to the CypherPunks
mailing list. And if it wasn't�well, then whoever authored it must know
somebody on the inside of the LMBoyd web site�someone who is working in
collusion with him.
"It's the rational explanation."

? the Lunatic smiled diabolically as he continued typing madly and speaking
madness.

"The rational explanation�" he continued. "The rational explanation for the
thinly veiled references to the Author throughout the entertainment media
must be 'coincidence' and 'collusion.' It cannot be otherwise."

"The references to him on Miami Vice could be the result of the Armadillo
World Headquarters employee who went on to become their casting director.
Likewise with the figure named C.J. Parker on Baywatch.
"Parker is a common name," he continued, as if trying to convince himself,
"and that would explain the characters named Parker in the X-Files, or was
it Millennium�or was it both?" ? the Lunatic would leave this as an exercise
for the reader, as the CypherPunks were so quick to say when challenging
those reading their mailing list to learn to think and reason for
themselves.

"What about 'JAG'?" he asked himself, in a conspiratorial whisper, his mind
sinking deeper and deeper into the dark waters of an ocean of paranoia which
was capable of swallowing up the strongest of deep-thought divers who
explored the underwater caverns of the subconscious mind.
"Surely it couldn't be a Circle of Eunuchs project aimed at subliminally
confirming the Author's claims of the existence of a secret arm of Navy
intelligence which was working behind the scenes with groups such as the
Circle of Eunuchs and the CypherPunks in order to defend the Constitution,
and freedom itself, from the plans of a secret government to use the secret
forces of the CIA and NSA to implement a New World Order in America and the
rest of the free world."

"No," ? the Lunatic continued, sarcastically, "it has to be just a
coincidence that the lead actor is a Canadian, that the lead actress is
named 'Bell,' that the Circle of Eunuchs' Bubba d'ShaunEAUX was connected to
a comedy writer, Patrick LabyortEAUX, who worked with a Canadian confidante
of the Author in 'Little House on the Prairie' and whose character in JAG
bore the initials BR, as in Bubba Rom Dos. And, of course, the Admiral in
the TV series was chosen without any regard for his relationship to the
Author when he guest-starred in 'Northern Exposure.'
"And, naturally," the madman smiled to those monitoring him, as he typed his
insane nonsense onto his computer screen at an increasingly faster rate,
"the reference to SOG in the CBS season premiere had nothing to do with the
son of gomez."

"No, it is all coincidence!" ? the Lunatic rose, with the bottle of "Bubba's
Special Reserve" in his hand, waving it about as he spoke to the secret
watchers, letting his madness take its ground.

"Nor was the TV movie 'CLONED!' part of a Circle of Eunuchs warning about
the secret activities of the underground Nazis portrayed in 'The Boys From
Brazil' which intimated that cloning was possible, and gave details which
were unknown to most scientists until years later.
"No!" he roared at the ceiling and walls. "The name of the company doing the
cloning in the movie, 'Nor'West', mirroring the name of the company the
Author started the same year that 'The Boys From Brazil' was released-the
'Northwest Mountain Madness Company', whose motto was 'If we can do it, it
can't be done�"
"Coincidence!"

"The name of the mother of the dead child being cloned was, Sky�the same as
the name of the dead son of the Author�but it was a coincidence, I tell you,
a coincidence."

"a horde of major armed forces figures suddenly resign or are shifted to
non-sensitive positions-and the world hardly seems to notice."

? the Lunatic quoted from chapter 19 of 'InfoWar,' knowing that the 60
Minutes piece a few days later on the railroading of Air Force Lt. Col.
Rogers and another Air Force intelligence agent named Julie Clemin would
only be recognized by Magic Circle members as bearing the marks of the
persecution of their secret initiates.
No notice, no chance for self-defense, merely relieved of command and
immediately transferred to a remote location with an office in a warehouse
that contained no phone and no way of communicating with the outside world.
A sham court-martial where he was charged with 'conduct unbecoming an
officer,' for allegedly running over a cat with his vehicle, among other
ludicrous charges. Finally convicted for walking on parked cars without
causing any damage to them.

"Yes, we the sheeple," ? the Lunatic shouted, as he sat down at his laptop
and resumed typing nonsense, "the Air Force threw away a career officer with
a million dollars invested in his training, for walking on parked cars.
"Nothing unusual there! Everybody just go back to sleep."

? the Lunatic was beginning to nod out, himself.

He could tell them more�much, much more, but there was really no point in
doing so.

? the Lunatic was tempted to tell the sheeple about Intel, but they would
find out soon enough what the threats of anti-trust action were all about.
Besides, if the sheeple couldn't follow the course of their future by
reading the plain facts surrounding the issues of life and technology that
were posted daily to the CypherPunks list, then it was unlikely they were
capable of following the whispering thread of the Tao.

? the Lunatic hit his return key, knowing the flurry of activity it would
cause in the monitoring room when his watchers discovered that they could
not prevent his missive from going past their firewalls and into the outside
world.
It would be days before their experts, after working night and day in
frenzied effort, would conclude that everything he sent was pure gibberish.

He may be crazy, but he felt the warm glow of the world's finest bourbon
washing over him, and he knew that he, unlike his watchers, was going to
sleep peacefully tonight.

Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger "
"I may be crazy, but at least I'm not you."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

                 "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

           "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

                Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite
----------------------------------------------------------------------------







From bubba at dev.null  Tue Sep 30 02:36:04 1997
From: bubba at dev.null (Bubba Rom Dos)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:36:04 +0800
Subject: InfoWar 24 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
Message-ID: <3430BF55.1AB1@dev.null>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 15596 bytes
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URL: 

From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep 30 04:12:14 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:12:14 +0800
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199709301039.MAA06289@basement.replay.com>



Timothy C[reep] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.

            \|/
           (*,*) Timothy C[reep] May
          _m_-_m_






From poguocou16 at sprintmail.com  Tue Sep 30 22:26:20 1997
From: poguocou16 at sprintmail.com (James)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:26:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GET PAID $300.00 FOR GIVING AWAY TWO WAY HOME SECURITY SYSTEMS!!!
Message-ID: <199709303587EAA16358@post.a001.sprintmail.com>


For removal, please put remove on subject line and email  me at
Success at Gosnet.com
*Don't press reply, it won't get back to me. Follow instructions
down below.

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2) Call 805-961-3971 for a 24 hr. voice message for more details.

3)If email comes back undeliverable please leave message 
    at (805)675-8565.







From isparkes at t-online.de  Tue Sep 30 08:09:21 1997
From: isparkes at t-online.de (Ian Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:09:21 +0800
Subject: bombs
In-Reply-To: <970924195003_-899596690@emout12.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970930160911.006b0f80@q9f47.dmst02.telekom.de>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 19:50 24.09.97 -0400, JuanPyro at aol.com wrote:

>im writing a screenplay and need very detailed instructions on how 
to make a
>bomb
>

Why not just buy a ready made one. Toto, I think, has details.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDEICPzOjjBJiFUeEQKe+gCg9RdTftfFcBOZ7LHkZDYFujbYa0AAoOfX
6fUXPDiKEF+tOH7e5S4L+7wC
=JZUI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Tue Sep 30 09:26:13 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:26:13 +0800
Subject: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
Message-ID: <01BCCD99.5C581CA0.hallam@ai.mit.edu>




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.30a 

on or about 970927:2154 
    Phillip Hallam-Baker  left his excrement:

+I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible  for a
+service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I  really
+don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to look to
+make that person serve jail time.

    I do not advocate infowar disasters or any such, but:

    there is _nothing_ lower than a snitch; you just qualified. a snitch
    is without honour, lower than the thief; lower than the law.

    may you enjoy your visit...  when do you go home to England or whatever
    sewer you crawled from?

I never promised any sabateur that I would keep any secret of theirs. I
have worked with law enforcement and the security services for many
years. If I catch someone damaging my property or property I am 
responsible for I call the authorities.

If someone is breaking into a bank and someone recognises the theif
thats not a snitch, thats a hero.

I believe that people who do bad things should go to prison.

It isn't my fault that this description includes many of the people you
send to congress. I never voted for any of them. Nor to judge from your
spelling did you. 

I completely reject your pseudononymous attempt to posit that there 
is a 'them and us' and that I somehow have a responsibility towards
anarchist thugs. When you grow up a bit you will learn that the real
world is not like your high school.


People depend on infrastructure. Lives depend on it. If people screw
it up someone is likely to be killed. Freeh will have a party. Indeed
its the sort of thing Nixon might have done on purpose to take
advantage of the backlash.


		Phill








From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Tue Sep 30 10:47:57 1997
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:47:57 +0800
Subject: ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199709301039.MAA06289@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C[reep] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.
> 
>             \|/
>            (*,*) Timothy C[reep] May
>           _m_-_m_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email :  : 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From WCReply at ctia.org  Tue Sep 30 11:05:32 1997
From: WCReply at ctia.org (Wow-Com Replies)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:05:32 +0800
Subject: WOW-COM Update
Message-ID: 



=============================================================
This update is sponsored by TESSCO 
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/
=============================================================


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INDEX:
======
1) CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97 GETS UNDERWAY IN ORLANDO, F.L.!

2) FCC ADOPTS NOTICE OF INQUIRY ON CALLING PARTY PAYS

3) CTIA's WIRELESS APPS '97 IS 27 DAYS AWAY.  REGISTER ONLINE TODAY!

	

CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97 GETS UNDERWAY IN ORLANDO,
F.L.!==========================================================
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FCC ADOPTS NOTICE OF INQUIRY ON CALLING PARTY PAYS
==========================================================
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As expected, the FCC adopted a Notice of Inquiry examining Calling Party
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=========================================================
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========================================================

This update sponsored by: TESSCO
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From geeman at best.com  Tue Sep 30 11:07:04 1997
From: geeman at best.com (geeman at best.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:07:04 +0800
Subject: Crypto Legality Question
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970930094118.006edce0@best.com>



*My* understanding is that this is violation of United State law,
irespective of Canada.  But hell, IANAL.

At 11:03 PM 9/29/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>
>Will Rodger  writes:
>> At 01:25 PM 9/29/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
>> >
>> >ACME corporation, a mostly Canadian outfit with a major
>> >subsidiary in the US, wants to roll out corporate wide crypto.
>> >
>> >Most of their network operations are in the US except one
>> >of their offices in Ireland.
>> >
>> >Question (1): Can they buy a strong crypto package in the
>> >US and physically roll it out to both Canada and Ireland.
>> 
>> Nope. Though Canada allows export of strong crypto generally, 
>> Canadians may not re-export US products once they enter the country.
>
>This is not the way I understand it.
>
>You can re-export strong crypto from Canada, you just have to inform
>the appropriate Canadian government department that you have done so.
>
>So procedure is: 1) import software from US, 2) write appropriate
>Canadian export department telling "I'm going to export blah to xyz
>corp offices in Ireland", 3) export it.
>
>That is, there is a loop-hole, you don't have to ask permission for
>export, you just have to inform them you're going to do it.  (You
>might want to check this out with a Canadian lawyer familiar with the
>rules, and loop-holes).
>
>So you informed them.  They can't do anything about it.  They won't
>like it, but they don't have to.
>
>I'm told Kerebos was exported by this route.  US -> Canada -> UK.
>100% legally.
>
>Adam
>-- 
>Now officially an EAR violation...
>Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
>
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0
>
>
obligatory pgp key:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 4.5

mQENAjMPX3sAAAEIAL8U6IqpMkqM3TcIqU/q7iot8pYk4ifVNaNlIYwwoYmPXH/T
dabDzgkQg7h1QsEJU71Ze8EdHmKksfeBEVppJV6X9SyzpFOCgrI/Qr7hMbxnecci
SVk2/B2lf4tUPuqm/DGRfAUcd4iG7Gjhw5GRh9Us/jrEtkqr3iIES+9pSNvrEsgB
xYYR39eaYwe0gheExaO7vtvDDPUM7C3spbcnwOyLCpURpLCAMHUO8DQc2FO/fN4z
TqqIFOect2ea4LYHr0o29RrtY9J85lQj3df8LQvIJWjwzAFfBqOU1KUdXqTayzUj
rvY4ZL/1vhTJ5QmlBJ6ognqwk7PVN0SesspU2okABRG0IGdyZWdnIHBlcnNvbmFs
IDxnZWVtYW5AYmVzdC5jb20+
=H0bC
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com  Tue Sep 30 11:09:09 1997
From: FisherM at exch1.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:09:09 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <2A22D88740F0D01196BD0000F840F43F954F3F@tceis5.indy.tce.com>



Jim Choate writes:
>What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?
>
>Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma
anonymously are
>not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply
have no
>interest in such activities. So, the question becomes:
>
>What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
>merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
good
>for?


Well, maybe the avenue to pursue isn't the average consumer, but the
average employee.  I don't doubt that at least some companies are under
email traffic analysis by their competitors (and/or their competitor's
governments) to get a clue about future directions for their products.
I could see where many (eventually most) companies would send email to
each other using remailers, so that only the companies involved know
that they communicated with each other.  Internet email doesn't provide
the same level of privacy that snail mail, phones, and faxes do now.
With the use of remailers, Internet email could provide more privacy
than snail mail, phones, or faxes.
==========================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher          Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at indy.tce.com          Indianapolis, IN
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their motto is 'Don't Tread on
Me'"






From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Sep 30 12:10:04 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:10:04 +0800
Subject: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
In-Reply-To: <01BCCD99.5C581CA0.hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199709301836.TAA00939@server.test.net>




Phillip Hallam-Baker  writes:
> Attila T Hun  writes:
> 
> I never promised any sabateur that I would keep any secret of theirs. I
> have worked with law enforcement and the security services for many
> years. If I catch someone damaging my property or property I am 
> responsible for I call the authorities.

You know, Phill, life is not black and white.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you are admin for a system
which is based on the security of MD4.  Then along comes Boesslaers
and co, and trashes it.  You going to call for him to be locked up?

How about if someone then uses this new cryptanalysis to write some
code which demonstrates the weakness... do you figure they should be
locked up for demonstrating the flaw.  (Note they haven't gone within
a mile of your precious systems).

How about if some cypherpunks used this code to demonstrate that they
could decrypt something which was encrypted by a webserver running on
a machine you are admin for.  Should these cypherpunks also be locked
up?

Perhaps those of us who spent some time a couple of years back
trashing Netscapes browser and server security in various ways should
be grateful that the people at Netscape were a a lot less closed
minded than yourself.  Let me guess .. your response to the
demonstration code showing how to exploit the RNG seed flaw Goldberg &
Wagner found in netscapes browser would be ... "lock them up?"

Jeeze ever heard of "Kerckhoffs principle?"

I can assure you that kerckhoffs principle applies doubly to infowar
attacks, a hostile foreign government is hardly going to be cowed by
your suggestion that you will call the feds if anyone breaks anything
you've got anything to do with.  I can see it now, Sadam Hussien's
hired system-crackers, his inforwar attack team, will really be
quaking in their boots, "better not trash US internet infrastructure
-- that brit Phill Hallam-Barker guy will narc us out".

> If someone is breaking into a bank and someone recognises the theif
> thats not a snitch, thats a hero.

Uh, ok.

> I believe that people who do bad things should go to prison.

Personally I would rather see murderers and rapists locked up than
teenage recreational crackers who go around breaking into poorly
maintained systems for the challenge, but break nothing.

Malicious hacking (breaking and rm -rf'ing the disk) is poor form.
The correct method of informing people of flaws you happen across is
to tell them.  People involved in system cracking do so at their own
risk, but don't over-react man.

I'm kind of wondering if _you_ as the security person who was
responsible for security at the site, feel no responsibility to secure
your systems.  ("Oh don't worry about security, if anyone breaks in
we'll call the feds").

> I completely reject your pseudononymous attempt to posit that there 
> is a 'them and us' and that I somehow have a responsibility towards
> anarchist thugs. When you grow up a bit you will learn that the real
> world is not like your high school.

I would hardly describe a bit of cryptanalysis of infowar risks as the
work of `anarchist thugs'.

Applying said cryptanalysis to in practice take out root DNS might not
be such a friendly thing though.  But hey, if someone does it, the
real people to blame are Freeh and co for hindering use of crypto
techniques to protect the infrastructure.

> People depend on infrastructure. Lives depend on it. 

If people are depending on the internet for mission critical
information, of the sort where people will die quickly if information
isn't getting through, they need their heads examining.  If they have
been advised to use the internet for this kind of information they
need to get better advice.

> If people screw it up someone is likely to be killed. Freeh will
> have a party. Indeed its the sort of thing Nixon might have done on
> purpose to take advantage of the backlash.

Uhh... could you explain the logic there a bit please?

Someone demonstrates that there is a flaw in some internet protcols.
The flaw in the protocols is that there is no cryptographic protection
against DoS attacks.

Freeh will use this to show what?  That they need laws to ban domestic
use of crypto meaning even less protoection against DoS attacks?

I would kind of hope that the military folks into infowar would speak
up and say that more crypto must be used to protect against this type
of attack.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0




************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1452,00.html

The Netly News
September 30, 1997 (http://netlynews.com/)

Till Debt Do Us Part
by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com)

     Ever since challenging the Communications Decency
Act in early 1996, the two coalitions that filed the
lawsuit have appeared unbeatable. Not only did a
Philadelphia court rule that the law violated the
Constitution's guarantees of freedom of speech, but
the Supreme Court unanimously agreed in June.

     Now one group's string of victories may be
ending. The Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT),
which organized the high tech lawsuit, may lose its
final battle: getting reimbursed nearly $600,000 for
money spent on lawyers.

     Under federal law, only nonprofit groups or
corporations worth less than $7 million can request
attorney's fees after successfully challenging an
unconstitutional law. The Department of Justice claims
that since such wealthy firms as America Online,
Microsoft, Apple and CompuServe paid for much of the
lawsuit, CDT should not be reimbursed. The government
has asked for four months to investigate, charging in
court papers that "other entities actually bore the
costs of the litigation and merely funneled money
through" CDT.

     In other words, if Microsoft had hired the
lawyers, Bill Gates couldn't get reimbursed. The DoJ
claims that Microsoft "funneled" the cash through CDT,
which then turned around and asked Uncle Sam for a
check.

     CDT opposes the government's request for
additional time. Documents filed in Philadelphia
district court last Friday show that the money raised
was from a broad coalition of groups, not all of which
expect reimbursement, says CDT's director, Jerry
Berman. "Maybe all the money doesn't qualify, maybe we
can't get all of it back. But certainly the small
associations, CDT's money and the library money ought
to come back."

     A major contributor to the lawsuit (and the lead
plaintiff) was the American Library Association and
the related Freedom to Read Foundation, which spent
$475,000. The total costs of the lawsuit, though,
ballooned to more than $1.3 million, and CDT still
needs to raise $200,000. (CDT can't ask to be
reimbursed for the full amount since its attorneys
charged much more than the $130 an hour the law sets
as an upper limit.)

     Even as CDT faces a tough struggle, the American
Civil Liberties Union -- which led a coalition of nonprofit
groups in a separate but coordinated lawsuit -- is
optimistic about recovering roughly $400,000 in
expenses. "[The law] was exactly intended to encourage
organizations like the ACLU Foundation, which was set
up to handle these kinds of cases on behalf of people
who don't have the resources to handle these cases
themselves," says Barry Steinhardt, the ACLU associate
director.

     Unlike the CDT coalition -- which employed a law
firm and was funded by outside groups -- the ACLU used
its own lawyers and money and has been reimbursed for
similar lawsuits before. Last Friday the ACLU filed
court documents saying it was eligible for attorney's
fees and arguing against delaying its request past
mid-October.

     If CDT receives attorney's fees, the group says
it first will use the money to settle outstanding
bills owed to the Washington law firm of Jenner &
Block, which has capped its fees at $1.1 million.
"Other than payments to Jenner & Block (and possibly
to the ALA), all proceeds will be used by [CDT ] to
further the general goals of... protecting free speech
on the Internet and empowering families who are using
the Internet to protect their children from material
they judge inappropriate," CDT deputy director Danny
Weitzner says in court documents.

     At issue here is the relationship between CDT,
the lawsuit's funders and the Citizens Internet
Empowerment Coalition, a project of CDT. The Justice
Department has asked the CDT plaintiffs to respond to
40 pages of detailed questions and requests to turn
over documents. "The existence and nature of the fee
arrangements among the plaintiffs is critical to
determining whether ineligible parties are the real
parties in interest," the government says. The
"ineligible" parties who helped out: America Online
($130,000), CompuServe ($50,000), Microsoft ($75,000),
Netcom ($10,000), and Prodigy ($75,000).

     Even if CDT and the ACLU can show they qualify
for a check, they have one more hurdle to leap: to
show the Justice Department was wrong to defend the
CDA as constitutional.

     You might think that after enduring 18 months of
humiliating defeats in two district courts and the
Supreme Court, the Clinton administration might be
willing to throw in the towel and admit the law was
brain-dead from the beginning. You'd be wrong.
Unbelievably, the government claims it was correct to
argue all the way to the Supreme Court that the CDA
did not violate the First Amendment. Says the Justice
Department, "Defendants will demonstrate that their
defense of the CDA was substantially justified and
that plaintiffs' requests for fees should be denied on
that basis alone."

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From dave at bureau42.ml.org  Tue Sep 30 12:41:11 1997
From: dave at bureau42.ml.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:41:11 +0800
Subject: remailer latencies
Message-ID: 



Monty,

Just so you know that the less-than-100-percent message rate doesn't
necessarily mean that messages are getting lost:

Last update: Tue 30 Sep 97 15:09:32 EDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
bureau42 remailer at bureau42.ml.org         -----------+  3:31:14 100.00%

It's a fluke; I just happened to look at this list (by fingering
rlist at anon.lcs.mit.edu) while I'd been on the net for a while, and so no
messages were in transit.  Mere seconds later, the EFGA list showed my uptime
as 99.97% and Raph's list showed a meager 94.08% (it looks like somewhere,
about three days ago, messages got dropped somehwere).

On balance, the remailer network is rather more reliable than you seem to
give it credit for.  (Side note: the more reliable remailers, with bureau42
being a notable exception :) tend to be faster too.  The top remailers as of
_right_now_ all have reliability above 99.90% and delay times less than
twenty-five minutes.  Chain a few of those together and your message will
almost certainly arrive in less than an hour. Few would argue that that's an
unacceptable delay. Messages routinely take longer than that to be delivered,
due to random nameserver burps and other "normal" factors.)

dave (bureau42 gearhead)






From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Sep 30 12:52:21 1997
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:52:21 +0800
Subject: FCPUNX:EPIC Alert 4.13 on crypto and more
Message-ID: <199709301934.MAA27888@proxy4.ba.best.com>



At 03:12 PM 9/26/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Question to ponder for the weekend: if it took this kind of "compromise"
> for a bill to clear the unabashedly pro-business Commerce committee, what
> will it take for a bill to become law?

Crypto legislation is guaranteed to be bad.  We have been saying that
for years, and now it has been demonstrated.

Just say no to crypto legislation.

> The fate of the SAFE bill is now uncertain.  The original Goodlatte
> language has been substantially amended by five House committees, with
> contradictory results. 

No contradiction:  There are bad amendments and there are really bad
amendments, and there are menacing and totalitarian amendments.

> As such, SAFE may no longer be a viable vehicle
> for the reform of encryption policy that it was originally intended to
> promote.

Let sleeping dogs lie.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd at echeque.com






From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Tue Sep 30 12:54:17 1997
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:54:17 +0800
Subject: sounds just like the snitch you are [was]RE: engineering infowar disasters
Message-ID: <01BCCDB5.14FC1250.hallam@ai.mit.edu>




>Phillip Hallam-Baker  writes:
>> Attila T Hun  writes:
>> 
>> I never promised any sabateur that I would keep any secret of theirs. I
>> have worked with law enforcement and the security services for many
>> years. If I catch someone damaging my property or property I am 
>> responsible for I call the authorities.

>You know, Phill, life is not black and white.

>Let's say for the sake of argument that you are admin for a system
>which is based on the security of MD4.  Then along comes Boesslaers
>and co, and trashes it.  You going to call for him to be locked up?

>How about if someone then uses this new cryptanalysis to write some
>code which demonstrates the weakness... do you figure they should be
>locked up for demonstrating the flaw.  (Note they haven't gone within
>a mile of your precious systems).

>How about if some cypherpunks used this code to demonstrate that they
>could decrypt something which was encrypted by a webserver running on
>a machine you are admin for.  Should these cypherpunks also be locked
>up?

This is not what was proposed at all however.

Demonstrating security flaws is one thing,  exploiting the flaws for malice
is quite another.

It is the difference between Ralph Nader demonstrating that the pinto is
"unsafe at any speed" and buying one for your elderly aunt who has promised
you that inheritance.

>I can assure you that kerckhoffs principle applies doubly to infowar
>attacks, a hostile foreign government is hardly going to be cowed by
>your suggestion that you will call the feds if anyone breaks anything
>you've got anything to do with.  I can see it now, Sadam Hussien's
>hired system-crackers, his inforwar attack team, will really be
>quaking in their boots, "better not trash US internet infrastructure
>-- that brit Phill Hallam-Barker guy will narc us out".

That is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

I was pointing out that *anybody* on the list who is responsible for a 
system is going to want a conviction if they are attacked. 

>> I believe that people who do bad things should go to prison.

>Personally I would rather see murderers and rapists locked up than
>teenage recreational crackers who go around breaking into poorly
>maintained systems for the challenge, but break nothing.

I believe the opposite.

So would you if you had had my experience. Even if you know that 
the system is secure and you have the perp under 24 hour 
surveillence by top people you are going to worry like hell. 

One of the people I advised during an incident likened it to rape. I
don't think this is too far fetched. There are many hackers who
see their machine as an extension of the self. 

The anonymity of the net cuts both ways. You don't know whether
its Sadam's storm troopers or teenage shit unless and until you
get a collar.


>I'm kind of wondering if _you_ as the security person who was
>responsible for security at the site, feel no responsibility to secure
>your systems.  ("Oh don't worry about security, if anyone breaks in
>we'll call the feds").

I'm interested in security at every level, including severe reprisals.


>I would hardly describe a bit of cryptanalysis of infowar risks as the
>work of `anarchist thugs'.

Neither did I. Discovering weaknesses is OK. Exploiting them is NOT.

>Applying said cryptanalysis to in practice take out root DNS might not
>be such a friendly thing though.  But hey, if someone does it, the
>real people to blame are Freeh and co for hindering use of crypto
>techniques to protect the infrastructure.

Not in that case. DNS security is taking time to adopt because that 
sort of thing just does. That is an authentication problem and there
has not been a problem. Heck the NSA even published the DSS.

Be exact, not every security problem can be blamed on the Feds.

If you arn't carefull you will end up like Kitty Kelly who when I spoke
with her yesterday began with the lie that truth is not a defense in
british libel law (wasn't in 1776, has been an absolute defense since 
1850 or so) then mixed up Australia and Argentina. Like you have to
make sure the points are accurate.


>> People depend on infrastructure. Lives depend on it. 

>If people are depending on the internet for mission critical
>information, of the sort where people will die quickly if information
>isn't getting through, they need their heads examining.  If they have
>been advised to use the internet for this kind of information they
>need to get better advice.

The assumption that the Internet and the telephone system are 
somehow entirely disjoint when it comes to Infowar is a somewhat
naive one. The fact is that the telephone system is just as prone
to attack, much more likely to use security through obscurity 
and so on than the Internet.


>> If people screw it up someone is likely to be killed. Freeh will
>> have a party. Indeed its the sort of thing Nixon might have done on
>> purpose to take advantage of the backlash.

>Uhh... could you explain the logic there a bit please?

Don't think for a moment that if Joe Cypherpunk screws up the 
national power grid that that means cryptography rights for all. All
it means is that Freeh is going to demand and get a blank cheque
to eliminate crypto to match the blank cheque to eliminate drugs.

One of the strategies Nixon's plumbers used was to deliberately
sabotage their own rallies so that they could claim the violence
came from the anti-war movement.

Don't imagine that because something makes no sense US politicians
won't insist on it. They voted for prohibition, they spend $40billion
on failed drug interdiction policies and they won't stop at giving
Freeh $5 billion to supress crypto.

The symbol of the US government should be changed to a B2 bomber,
hugely expensive ($1.5 billion and counting), with no remaining 
strategic role (Pentagon, RAND, Air Force Chief of Staff statements),
can't be used in the rain (CNN reports) and visible on Marconi-UK
build radar. US congress is insisting on building 20 more despite
statements from DoD they just don't want them.

		Phill






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 30 12:57:24 1997
From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:57:24 +0800
Subject: Pre-Encryption Surveillance
Message-ID: 




--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:11:43 -0400
Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              
From: Dwight Hines 
Subject:      Pre-Encryption Surveillance
To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Please note that there are now two cases in the Federal Appellate Courts
(Docket #'s 2780, 2293) in the Eleventh Circuit, and one case that will soon
be appealed from the Fed Dist in Tallahassee, Florida (Hines v. American Inn)
that have to do with illegal electronic surveillance of computers, as well as
invasion of privacy.  The Federal Election Commission has been notified as
well as other law enforcement agencies.  The attached file gives more detail
on the Tallahassee Case.  There is another case that will be filed soon in a
different circuit that also includes allegations of obstruction ofjustice and
witness tampering.  The concern with encryption has led some folks with a
criminal bent to avoid the issue altogether.  Others, such as supporters of
the Christian Coalition, feel they can presume police powers that are
restricted just to the state.  It is a major mess.  If you are interested in
becoming an interested party and would like to be included in the certificate
of corporate disclosure and interested parties, please read the attached file
and contact me.
Sincerely,
Dwight Hines

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com  Tue Sep 30 13:12:02 1997
From: jim.burnes at n-o--s-p-a-m.ssds.com (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 04:12:02 +0800
Subject: We're from the government and we're here to he
Message-ID: <199709301708.LAA08272@denver.ssds.com>



Just in case anyone has forgotten the mindset of Big Bro in 
the Land of the Freeh.  Who knows?  Maybe we could be
judged insane.

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

By WebToday Staff Writers
Sunday, September 28, 1997

ROBY, ILLINOIS (Sept. 28, 1997)-- Illinois State police fired metal balls
into the chest of Shirley Allen Friday, September 26, thus escalating the
violence at the "Roby Ridge" Illinois government siege. 
Miraculously, the 51-year-old widow did not drop to the ground as did Vicky
Weaver when shot through the head and killed by a federal sharp shooter
while holding her infant daughter.

During a 10:30 a.m. Saturday news conference in Springfield the Illinois
State Police Czar Terry Gainer changed his story once again. In an apparent
irrational justification of his assault squad's aggressive behavior, he
made several extemporaneous disjointed statements including: "We're here to
help" and "We are looking out for her best interests" and "It's our hope
that she (Shirley Allen) will grow to understand that we . . . are looking
out for her..." (All three quotes taken from the September 27 issue of the
State Journal-Register, the dominant newspaper of record in Springfield,
Illinois.

Staying consistent with his continually contradictory statements Gainer
claimed it was widow Allen who first fired at police. Puzzled journalists
questioned how that could be since all official prior statements from
Gainer and the Illinois State Police attested to the fact that Mrs. Allen
had never fired on any of the police orders prior to Friday. 

A growing number of Mental Health observers are now comparing and
contrasting the extreme tactics taken by state authorities with the
rational and controlled self defense measures taken by the 51-year-old
woman authorities believe may be "mentally ill."

Perhaps stranger still are reports that the earlier estimate of $125,000
for the widow's estate have now grown to current appraisals in excess of a
million dollars. It has also been confirmed that there are two oil wells on
her large rural property. Yet unresolved is the question of who would
control the estate if the court order for mental evaluation succeeds in
keeping Mrs. Allen separated from her property. Questions also remain
unanswered as to the intentions of Mr. Allen's out of state relatives who
initiated proceedings for the court order for involuntary psychiatric
commitment. 

The siege began Monday when Christian County Sheriff Deputies attempted to
have the widow Allen involuntarily committed into a hospital for
"psychiatric evaluation." Under current Illinois laws upheld by the soon
retiring Governor Jim Edgar, it is remarkably simple for virtually any
family member, no matter how distant, to commit someone against their will.
Once papers are signed, family members are extracted from their homes and
involuntarily committed. One mental health commentator coined the
phrase,"Crazy until proven (by the state) otherwise." This writer asks: "Is
it any wonder that anyone who is about to be "taken away" might be somewhat
less than eager to comply?"

According to the State Journal-Register, Illinois State Troopers fired six
bags at Mrs. Allen from their shotguns, with three bags hitting her in the
chest, stating that, "Normally, that's enough to knock somebody down so
police can run up and arrest the person. But Allen's bulky clothing
apparently absorbed some of the shock, and she quickly fired her gun in the
direction of the shooting troopers." 

Terry Gainer told reporters in Springfield that he hoped the woman would
hear his message of peace through the media, especially since he gave her
the concession of turning her electricity back on last Wednesday.

Gainer seems to epitomize the mind set of advocates of big (brother)
government. He just doesn't get it. He's clueless as to why Mrs. Allen
didn't respond positively to his "I'm from the government and I'm trying to
help (commit) you" rhetoric. Furthermore he probably can't compute this
unrepentant widow's gross lack of appreciation for his generous concession
of turning her electricity back on. Perhaps he presumed that this "mentally
ill" woman also had a bad memory. Or maybe he has forgotten the fact that
it was his police who cut off her electricity in the first place-- not to
mention the other minor inconveniences, not the least of which was the
lobbing of a tear gas hand grenade into the window of the belwildered widow.

Regarding the gassing of this resilient woman, Christian County Sheriff
Dick Mahan made this astounding admission: "Mrs. Allen lessened the effects
of the gas by putting petroleum jelly on her face and running water over
her head." (Editor's not: Not too crazy.)

Meanwhile our government continues their headlong frenzy to fan the flames
of the tax-dollar eating furnace by maintaining 12 tactical team members to
surround the Allen home 24 hours a day, while reinforcements are retained
to keep the watchful eyes of concerned citizens virtually blindfolded. 

Even members of the news media have been pushed farther and farther away
from the scene. Once allowed to report on the story from up to 450 feet
away from the scene, now police have completely banned all news reporters
within a half mile of the home, in flagrant violation of foundational First
Amendment rights of free speech and freedom of the press. Predictably,
members of the news media were only all too willing to comply. 

Staying consistent with the precedents set at Waco and Ruby Ridge, police
have just succeeded in "evacuating" the last of the widow's closest
neighbors. Mind you, these neighbors say there is nothing insane or
dangerous about Mrs. Allen. 

This writer finds nothing "crazy" about Shirley Allen's amazing skills at
implementing consistent common sense while under what is by most any
measure would be considered to be an enormous amount of stress. That may be
more than can be said about some of the actions levied by police. The State
Journal-Register reported: "Friday's use of bean-bag bullets was the most
direct action by law enforcement agencies since tear gas was fired into the
home Monday by deputies," and went on to say, Christian County Sheriff
Mahan agrees stating Mrs. Allen is "not a stupid person."

So what exactly is the compelling reason Illinois authorities have that
justifies their obsession to violently disrupt the peaceful existence of a
widow who neighbors say is quiet, sane and not troublesome? 

Perhaps it is this widow's past crime record. After exhaustive background
probes made into Mrs. Allen's past, authorities were finally able to
unearth one token offense to which Mrs. Allen was guilty. Court archives
indicated that she once ran a stop sign.

If these extreme measures were being implemented in the former Soviet Union
rather than in the American rural town of Roby, we may have condemned the
actions of "The Evil Empire." Had this been the act of Saddam Hussein it
probably would have surprised us even less. But in the United States of
America, our citizenry seems to treading water not unlike the perverbial
frog in the saucepan. A rogue minority within government keeps slowly
turning up the heat until we boil and burst without knowing what hit us.
Political spin doctors have fine tuned their craft to the point that
millions of citizens are now desensitized to these escalating govenmental
abuses (some say tyranny). These usurpers have succeeded in
hypersensitizing the masses, addicting many to sports, O. J., or any other
strategic diversion that blinds eyes and deafens ears to the cries for help
from the widows and the defenseless. We simply relegate them to the
government for "help."

As governments gets bigger and the world get madder, all this writer can
conclude is with this kind of "help" it's a good thing we don't get all the
government we pay for!

Top Cop Gainer seems to think otherwise. As stated publicly he maintains
it's clear that "she's (Mrs. Allen) a danger" to either herself or somebody
else and, "We intend to stay until we can get her the medical treatment she
needs." 

With all due respect to Mr. Gainer, it appears he may have forgotten that
the "court order" (remarkably not even a warrant) authorized the County
Sheriff to bring Mrs. Allen into a hospital for evaluation. It never
authorized Mr. Gainer or anyone in government to issue a medical
determination prior to an examination. Zeal and good intentions aside,
there are plenty of other government agencies that there to "help" widow

Shirley Allen. 

>

> 

>

>For further information you may contact the following agencies and

>organizations: 

>

>Christian County Sheriff Richard Mahan's office: 217-824-4961

>

>Illinois State Police, District 9, Springfield, Media Spokesman Mark

>McDonald: 217-786-7109

>

>Office of Mental Health, Dr. Steiner, Associate Director: 217-782-7555

>

>Christian County Senior Citizens Center: 217-824-4263

>

>State Journal-Register:

>

>St. John's Hospital, Springfield: 217-544-6464

>

>Christian County Clerk: 217-824-4966

>

>Film footage is available from CBS Affiliate WCIA Television of Illinois at

>217-782-2216.

>

>To schedule interviews members of the news media may call: 616-924-1000.

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes at ssds.com
----
When the world is running down
Make the best of what's still around
                   - Sting






From ddt at pgp.com  Tue Sep 30 13:18:12 1997
From: ddt at pgp.com (Dave Del Torto)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 04:18:12 +0800
Subject: [CFP98] "How to Choke the Net"
Message-ID: 



Cypherpunks,

The CFP98 program committee is considering a panel (or possibly a
pre-conference tutorial) for next year entitled something like "How to
Choke the Net." (The provocative title is NOT intended to espouse the
practice of net-choking NOR to provide hands-on techniques.)

 "Many have argued that the net is so decentralized that no one country or
  force could control it, but is that really true? Many, including religions
  (Scientologists) and countries (China, et alia) have tried, but is the net
  so decentralized that it cannot be controlled, or are there choke points
  at which a single entity (or cartel of entities) could exploit to shape
  the net for their own political purposes, despite the efforts of others.
  The panel will explore the current state of the decentralization of the
  net and its potential for exploitation in an educational-style format."

Discussion topics may include host authentication, denial-of-service
attacks, DNS, IPSEC, routing issues and SYN-flooding, etc. If any of you
has any course materials you'd like to deliver on the topic of Internet
vulnerabilities and defenses, please contact me.

   dave








From nobody at REPLAY.COM  Tue Sep 30 14:16:36 1997
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:16:36 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709300125.UAA14206@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199709302052.WAA12546@basement.replay.com>



Jim Choate  wrote:

> What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
> good for?

Avoiding spam.  Anyone who doesn't use remailers is sure to get their
mailbox full of crap.

Employment related concerns.  I know of many people on this list who
have had problems along these lines.

The rest of your comment is utterly stupid.  How many people do you
know who use remailers to launder money?  Zero, I'd bet.  You need to
spend a little less time listening to mindless political rants and more
time observing the real world.






From txporter at mindspring.com  Tue Sep 30 14:32:18 1997
From: txporter at mindspring.com (Thomas Porter)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:32:18 +0800
Subject: [CFP98] "How to Choke the Net"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970930171158.0cc7f358@pop.mindspring.com>



At 10:12 AM 9/30/97 -0700, Dave Del Torto thoughtfully expounded thus:
>Cypherpunks,
>
>The CFP98 program committee is considering a panel (or possibly a
>pre-conference tutorial) for next year entitled something like "How to
>Choke the Net." (The provocative title is NOT intended to espouse the
>practice of net-choking NOR to provide hands-on techniques.)

[snip]

Dave,

I think that the fact that 50 - 75 % of all packets _in the world_ (IIRC)
go through MAE-EAST in Reston, VA means that any governmental entity
controlling this NAP could filter/drop packets to their heart's content.  I
seem to recall a year or so back that Madsen, et. al. said that they were
very certain that packet monitoring took place at major NAPS like this.

For my own $.02 I think that the lack of success on this front has been due
to sloth on various governments' parts, not for lack of ability.
Considering that many third-world countries have limited connectivity into
the high-speed backbones, typically through one or two interconnect points
at most, (owned by their government-run PTT's) I think that any concerted
effort on a government's part would be more successful than most think
given that the Internet is not as seamless and redundant a network as one
might think.

(Yes, I recall the xs4all business last year, and feel that Western
Europe's interconnectedness is currently an anomaly and not the norm, from
a global point of view.)

I would like to know if the general public's use of default DNS servers as
setup or defined by most of the big ISP's would help this kind of control?  


I imagine that it is harder to block access if one controls routing and
uses direct IP addresses, but considering that a lot of people find sites
to look at via the various search engines; and considering the recent US
rating proposals looking to not include unrated sites in search engines; I
think that the possibility of effective site blocking for most casual
internet users is not that far-fetched.


A chef my wife knows in Thailand 'lost' some PGP mail coming to him once or
twice, and then got a knock on the door asking him please not to use
encrypted mail anymore:  "... You are free to do whatever you want, but
this is very suspicious activity that you might want to reconsider...." 

FWIW,

Tom Porter                                       txporter at mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 
'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will 
the right answers come out?'  I am not able rightly to apprehend the 
kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."

FIGHT U.S. GOVT. CRYPTO-FASCISM, EXPORT A CRYPTO SYSTEM!  RSA in PERL:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:05:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: American Journalism Review on perils of Internet ratings


========================================================================

http://www.newslink.org/ajrjdl21.html

X-Rated Ratings?

                The Clinton administration and the Internet industry
                have championed voluntary ratings for Web sites to
                create a ``family-friendly'' environment in cyberspace.
                Their campaign nearly led online news organizations to
                create a licensing system for Web journalism.

                By J.D. Lasica
                From AJR, October 1997

                WHEN PRESIDENT CLINTON challenged the high-tech industry
                this summer to create a ``family-friendly Internet'' by
cleaning up
                cyber-smut and other offensive content, newspaper editorials
                applauded the president's decision to forgo government
                regulation and let private industry police the Net.

                     Few realized that the White House's ``parental empowerment
                initiative'' would plunge online news publications headlong
into
                the thorniest thicket of free speech issues in the history of
                cyberspace--and lead to the news media's rejection of the
                president's proposal when it comes to their own Web sites.

                     The fate of an Internet self-rating system, however,
remains
                far from settled. And the online news media's actions in recent
                weeks have been riddled with more intrigue than a John Le Carr*
                thriller--with the final chapters still unwritten.

                     Consider the questions the online news world took up after
                the president's call for an Internet ratings system: How would
                Web news sites rate themselves for violence, language and
sexual
                frankness when publishing stories involving war, murder, rape,
                gang shootings, domestic abuse, hate crimes and teenage
                pregnancy?

                     If an exception is carved out for news sites, which
sites would
                qualify? Where do you draw the line between news and
                information, entertainment, propaganda and opinion? And who
                decides?

                     If news sites refuse to rate themselves, will they be
shut off
                from a growing number of parents and others who are
                demanding filters on their Web browsers?

                     Finally, will the entire ratings scheme transform the
Net from
                a global democratic village into a balkanized, regulated medium
                where foreign despots can easily censor any material that
strays
                from the party line?

                     Questions like these are now being vigorously debated by
                online journalists who've barely had time to catch their breath
                after the U.S. Supreme Court slapped down the Communications
                Decency Act in June.

                     The Clinton administration has adopted the approach
                championed by the Internet industry, which fears another effort
                by Congress to clamp down on ``indecent material'' in
                cyberspace. At the July 16 Internet summit at the White House,
                the president called on such companies as Netscape, America
                Online and IBM to give parents the tools needed to shield
                children from obscenity, violence and antisocial messages
on the
                Net.

                     ``We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
not it
                has material harmful to minors, to rate its contents�to help
                ensure that our children do not end up in the red-light
districts
                of cyberspace,'' Clinton said.

                     The assembled captains of industry obliged. Netscape
                indicated it would support Internet ratings in its next
browser,
                meaning that about 97 percent of all browsers will support
                Internet ratings. (Microsoft's Internet Explorer 3.0 already
                includes ratings as an option for parents to turn on.) The
search
                engines Lycos, Excite and Yahoo! also fell into line,
pledging to
                ask for ratings labels for all Web sites in their directories.

[...]







From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk  Tue Sep 30 15:32:39 1997
From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:32:39 +0800
Subject: [CFP98] "How to Choke the Net"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199709302128.WAA03408@server.test.net>




Dave Del Torto  writes:
> Cypherpunks,
> 
> The CFP98 program committee is considering a panel (or possibly a
> pre-conference tutorial) for next year entitled something like "How to
> Choke the Net." (The provocative title is NOT intended to espouse the
> practice of net-choking NOR to provide hands-on techniques.)
>
> [...]
>
> Discussion topics may include host authentication, denial-of-service
> attacks, DNS, IPSEC, routing issues and SYN-flooding, etc. 

Better keep you-know-who away from that conference, or he'll be
calling for all and sundry to be locked up for discussing something
which might result in his system going down :-)

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* violated EAR today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0





>It really depends how the engineered "infowar disaster" is presented
>in the press, ranging from say:

>	Dr Adam Back, a computer security researcher at Exeter
>	University highlighted a fundamental weakness in DNS security
>	which he demonstrates can be easily exploited.  "This is
>	entirely avoidable", said Back, "the only reason that global
>	infrastructure is left vulnerable, is that the wire-tapping
>	extremists and intelligence special groups are being allowed
>	to jeopardise national security to protect their jobs in their
>	now redundant function in a post-cold war era."

Unfortunately I don't think the above is true.

The secure DNS specs have been circulating in a serious way for
about three years. The main impediment to implementing them has 
been the time taken to completely rewrite the existing BIND code
to make it work. Unfortunately the design of DNS does not encourage
good coding parctice. The easy way to implement is to send out your
request independently of processing the reply.

One might possibly argue that the D-H patent has held matters
up or that the FBI has generally intimidated people. I don't think
this is actually the case however. Certainly Jeff Schiller, the IETF
security director has not been intimidated, he has been handing out
PGP to all commers for some time.


	An anonymous cypherpunk took down half of the internet
	yesterday, with an estimated loss to business of $50 million.
	The cypherpunk hacker terrorist issued a manifesto claiming
	that his motives were to highlight insecurities in the DNS.
	Whether his motives were pure or not, the incident does
	highlight the vulnerabilities in our infrastructure, something
	infowar researchers have been arguing.

And which do you think is going to get published?

Declan might possibly put the second story in rather than the first
(but I would not count on it). But after his editor was finished with it
it would be more like the second. 


>either one I can't see getting me or anyone else in trouble.

Not unless you or they get caught.

>They guy who wrote the SYN flood attack is none the worse for wear, it
>was released in a phrack article, and I don't think there was any
>secret as to who authored the software.

Some of the people who doiwnloaded and used it are in big trouble
though.
>> I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who is responsible 
>> for a service that is a regular hacker target. If I catch someone I 
>> really don't care what the motive for the attack was. I'm going to
>> look to make that person serve jail time.

>Your argument seems to be that if you legislate against OS bugs, that
>they will go away.

That is not what I said. And in any case you probably would not be
continuing the meme that reaction is useless if you knew the origin.

All O/S inevitably have bugs. There is nothing that can be done about
this in most cases. Many vendors simply don't give a hoot about
fixing bugs. Two years ago Sun delivered a machine to me with a 
version of the O/S that didn't recognize the sound or video card. That
was a standard package, completely current O/S and broken out of 
the box. Didn't strike them as the wrong approach. Nothing I could do
but never buy from them again.

If there is a bug in the O/S and the manufacturer is not interested in
fixing it my *only* recourse may be to persecute the perpetrator of
an attack.

That is not my FIRST choice, but it is a choice.

Also most of my systems are designed to give warning long before
an attack succeeds. I don't trust the clowns who put UNIX together
all that much. If there is an attack I want to know as soon as possible
and respond by removing the threat as soon as possible.

I'm not complacent enough to put my trust in the O/S.


>I would point out that the hackers who change your web page, or
>exploit OS bugs you haven't applied patches, and send you taunting
>messages telling what's wrong with your setup, are probably doing you
>a service. 

If I want such a service I will ask.

I built a burgalar alarm into the system. If it goes off I assume that 
someone is robbing the bank. I don't care what their motives are
or were, even if they are able to prove them they can tell them to
the judge, I am simply not interested.

If someone sets off the alarm it costs real money to react. Probably
in the tens of thousands of dollars. 

> If you have something of real value to secure, you'd
>rather know about it from a few harmless hackers, than an industrial
>spy who takes the farm, and covers up his tracks so well that you
>don't even notice.

At present there arn't any secrets on the machine (with the exception
of some heavily encrypted signature keys). In fact the purpose is to 
distribute information. All the logs could be obtained under FOIA in
any case.

The sole concern in the risk model is reputation capital. If the machine
is compromised it is front page news. I want to ensure that does not 
happen. I am simply giving fair notice that I do not consider any attack
'friendly' and that I will react with the maximum force available to me.
I have good reasons for this policy and they have nothing to do with 
complacency.


		Phill






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 30 17:28:07 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:28:07 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010018.TAA16914@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:52:09 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
> From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

> Jim Choate  wrote:
> 
> > What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> > merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
> > good for?
> 
> Avoiding spam.  Anyone who doesn't use remailers is sure to get their
> mailbox full of crap.

Using an anonymous remailer does nothing to reduce spam. It doesn't even
make it harder for them to send it to you, they just don't know who you are;
hardly a requirement for most spam that I have seen.

> Employment related concerns.  I know of many people on this list who
> have had problems along these lines.

How in the world would an anonymous remailer help me get or keep a job?

Are you perhaps refering to whistleblowing? If so, being anonymous will do
nothing in most cases because you have to be willing to stand up and say you
saw what you saw non-anonamously in court. Otherwise the company will just
claim it ain't so and that you are some chicken-shit ex-employee with a
grudge, the DA will buy it too unless you reveal your identity which sort of
defeats the whole point of anonymity.

Now it might be useful for other forms of whistleblowing, ala Pentagon Papers,
where the source is irrelevant except for idle curiosity. But considering the
frequency at which this sort of stuff happens it hardly qualifies as a reason
to stay in business day after day. 

> The rest of your comment is utterly stupid. How many people do you
> know who use remailers to launder money?  Zero, I'd bet.

If it is a commercial remailer using ecash payments then every user is
laundering money - strictly speaking. The point being that with such a
system in place it becomes trivial to anonymously launder your money into
ecash and then using another account turn it back into real money. The nice
thing about this is that you don't loose anything in the process, unlike
regular underground money laundering where you might get 60% return (if you
are lucky and got a big gun). I'll leave it as an excercise to the reader as
to how this can be used to avoid taxes at nearly every level.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|








From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 30 17:47:38 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:47:38 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010039.TAA16972@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> From: Fisher Mark 
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:49:29 -0500

> Jim Choate writes:

> >What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?

> >What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> >merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
> good
> >for?

> Well, maybe the avenue to pursue isn't the average consumer, but the
> average employee.  I don't doubt that at least some companies are under
> email traffic analysis by their competitors (and/or their competitor's
> governments) to get a clue about future directions for their products.

Well, speaking from more than a couple of years in the business, most
companies don't take that sort of traffic outside their corporate firewalls.
I can state unequivicaly, working for Tivoli - IBM, that were an employee to
send such confidential email out they would get sacked ASAP (as they should
be) and possibly face criminal and/or civil charges. Besides, it's much
safer to just bribe somebody, that way some eager beaver doesn't stumble
over your tap in a routine maintenance tour.

> I could see where many (eventually most) companies would send email to
> each other using remailers, so that only the companies involved know
> that they communicated with each other.

So you are proposing something like:

  employee emial --> anonymous remailer --> firewall --> Internet

  Intenet --> firewall --> anonymous remailer --> employee2 email

Or,

  employee email --> firewall --> anonymous remailer --> firewall

  firewall --> employee2 email


To be honest, I can't see either one providing any sort of security that
would be advantagous to a business. Not only that but in the second case
the remailer is owned/operated by a third party. How do I know my
competitors aren't running remailers to capture my traffic? The first case
would be much simpler if we simply do away with the remailers and simply
send encrypted email using company distributed software and keys.
  
> Internet email doesn't provide
> the same level of privacy that snail mail, phones, and faxes do now.

You consider snail mail, phones, and faxes secure? You certainly live in a
different world than I do. I personaly consider none of them secure. Hell, I
have all the equipment I need to intercept any and all of these forms of
traffic in my workshop. For less than a thousand bucks you too can have the
necessary equipment.

> With the use of remailers, Internet email could provide more privacy
> than snail mail, phones, or faxes.

Only if we use encryption and/or remailer technology. This crypto technology
is applicable to the other technologies besides email. Otherwise they are all
about equivalent without it, they keep the honest man honest and thats about
it.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From pooh at efga.org  Tue Sep 30 18:20:50 1997
From: pooh at efga.org (Robert A. Costner)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:20:50 +0800
Subject: Remailer Attack
In-Reply-To: <199709252158.XAA21054@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930205755.036f75d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>



At 11:58 PM 9/25/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote:
>What would it take to reduce remailer
>latency to under 60 seconds for most of the remailers?  Do people need
>old 486s to dedicate to the task?  Do they need money?  Better
>software?
>
>If you operate a remailer, please tell us what you need to make it
>really work well.  Perhaps the rest of us can help make it happen.

If Monty would like to send a suitable 486, I'll see to it that it becomes
a remailer.  If you would like to send two 486's, I'll see to it that they
both become remailers and at least one of them has a latency under 60 secs
average.  Donated machines (stuffed with ecash, I hope) may be sent to:

Robert Costner
Electronic Frontiers Georgia
Suite A-205
4780 Ashford-Dunwoody Rd.
Atlanta, GA 30338


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh at efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Sep 30 18:59:54 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:59:54 +0800
Subject: Remailers and ecash
In-Reply-To: <2321ced0989df8c5fb475134a708618d@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930161103.006bc934@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>And another point: Nobody wants to add latency.  (There may be a few
>applications, but they are rare.)
>What people want is security and one way to get it (sometimes) is by
>adding latency to their messages.

Latency is essential to security, though high volume reduces the latency
that's
needed to get a given level of security.  It's not enough - if your latency
is a
constant, it doesn't buy you anything, and if there's not enough traffic,
the fact that the remailer waited 3 days before sending out the one message it
received doesn't help much either.  But if it's low, and relatively
predictable,
you lose rapidly to traffic analysis instead of potentially losing slowly.

Lucky's point that traffic analysts can learn a lot because messages decrease
in size in type-1 remailer networks is important; Mixmaster's constant-size
message blocks are probably the best way to go (though you then need
more random interblock latency), but the ability to have each remailer
add padding is important if you don't use fixed-size blocks, and I'm not aware
of anybody implementing that.  (The obvious implementation would be for
remailers that randomly pick another remailer to chain through to reach
their destination, since they could put padding inside the encrypted package.)

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 30 19:07:50 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:07:50 +0800
Subject: INFO-RUSS: New Russin Law List (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010204.VAA17212@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:
>From INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu Tue Sep 30 20:42:09 1997
Message-Id: <9709301725.AA13658 at smarty.ece.jhu.edu>
Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
Sender: INFO-RUSS-request at smarty.ece.jhu.edu
From: "Alexander V Pavlenko" 
To: 
Subject: INFO-RUSS: New Russin Law List
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:55:44 +0400

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Sep 30 19:10:39 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:10:39 +0800
Subject: colocation costs: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199709291246.HAA11540@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930160322.006bcb48@popd.ix.netcom.com>



>>I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
>>must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
>>saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
>>your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
>>accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
>>figures to a true commercial enterprise.

Depending on the security, performance, and price you're looking for, 
you can run your own machine on your own premises, 
run your own machine in somebody else's colocation facility (either
as a favor, like anon.efga.org may be, or using a commercial ISP),
have somebody else run a dedicated machine for you (mostly ISPs),
buy a shell account on an ISP or other service provider's machine,
use a free shell account from somewhere, or use an IP-only connection.

Sure, free colocation space is nice, but there _are_ plenty of ISPs
running commercially reliable colocation services that get you UPSed
electricity,
professionally maintained routers, and some share of a T1 or T3 to the world,
for far less than the rent you'd pay for doing the whole job yourself,
since they have economies of scale by handling multiple colocation
customers and
also handling their own servers.   

Shell accounts are still typically $20-30/month, though obviously it's a
lot less 
secure since somebody else has root on the machine your remailer's secret
key lives on,
but that does include professionally maintained hardware, mail systems, and
backups.

				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From stewarts at ix.netcom.com  Tue Sep 30 19:14:24 1997
From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:14:24 +0800
Subject: Ecash Remailer #1
In-Reply-To: <17eeea20e78a2498765e928b039c8bb5@anon.efga.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930152310.006ae3d4@popd.ix.netcom.com>



At 08:25 PM 09/29/1997 -0400, Anonymous  wrote:
>This is a test of the first modern remailer to accept ecash.  Sorry for the
>inconvenience.

Which remailer is it?  anon.efga.org?  Or something forwarding through
there?
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts at ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 30 19:15:31 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:15:31 +0800
Subject: colocation costs: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010222.VAA17444@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:03:22 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart 
> Subject: colocation costs: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)

> >>I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it
> >>must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of
> >>saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of
> >>your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the
> >>accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those
> >>figures to a true commercial enterprise.
> 
> Depending on the security, performance, and price you're looking for, 
> you can run your own machine on your own premises, 
> run your own machine in somebody else's colocation facility (either
> as a favor, like anon.efga.org may be, or using a commercial ISP),
> have somebody else run a dedicated machine for you (mostly ISPs),
> buy a shell account on an ISP or other service provider's machine,
> use a free shell account from somewhere, or use an IP-only connection.

I am quite aware of what it takes, it's what I have done using SSZ since
going online to the Internet full time in '92 via modem.

> Sure, free colocation space is nice,

It isn't nice, it's a threat to the utility and security of the remailer.

> for far less than the rent you'd pay for doing the whole job yourself,
> since they have economies of scale by handling multiple colocation
> customers and
> also handling their own servers.   

True, but you take a hit on security if you don't have a personal
arrangement with the provider. It also means you won't be on hand when
the cops come a knocking...better use CFS or something similar. This
will require having some sort of contact point for times when the system
gets rebooted, it's obvious you won't give the pass phrase to the operator.

There are other issues involved like the utility of having a business at 
home and the number of legitimate deductions that can be taken.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Sep 30 19:30:30 1997
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:30:30 +0800
Subject: AT&T Paper on Digital PCS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971001015215.0088a220@pop.pipeline.com>



Thanks to Bill Stewart we offer AT&T's white paper
on digital PCS which describes the system in detail
and its security features:

   http://jya.com/digipcs.htm  (70K)






From jf_avon at citenet.net  Tue Sep 30 19:34:03 1997
From: jf_avon at citenet.net (jf_avon at citenet.net)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:34:03 +0800
Subject: USRobotics Palm Pilot and PGP
Message-ID: <199710010219.WAA25642@cti06.citenet.net>



Hi.

Is there anybody that know if there is a PGP compiled for the Palm 
Pilot?  I looked around but didn't find anything.

As I am not, despite Tim's rants  ;-)  , subscribed to CP, would you 
please reply directly to me or to    the    espam at intertrader.com 
mailing list.

Thanks

jfa

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
    Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
    physicists and engineers, LabView programing.
PGP encryption keys at:
   http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
   http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C






From anon at anon.efga.org  Tue Sep 30 19:36:49 1997
From: anon at anon.efga.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:36:49 +0800
Subject: Why?
Message-ID: <22bafaa5c7e09b4c690f0fb54d5dd1d6@anon.efga.org>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jim Choate wrote:
>> However, it appears that part of the problem with the remailers is
>> that nobody uses them.  We should be making a concerted effort to do
>> so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
>> everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
>> delays substantially.  It will also advertise the remailer network to
>> our friends who may not yet be cypherpunks.
>> 
>> The tools exist to do this.
>
>Yes, but why would I?

- From "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera
Part 4, Section 2:

    It was a program about Czech emigration, a montage of private
  conversations recorded with the latest bugging devices by a Czech spy
  who had infiltrated the emigre community and then returned in great
  glory to Prague.  It was insignificant prattle dotted with some harsh
  words about the occupation regime, but here and there one emigre would
  call another an imbecile or a fraud.  These trivial remarks were the
  point of the broadcast.  They were meant to prove not merely that
  emigres had bad things to say about the Soviet Union (which neither
  surprised nor upset anyone in the country), but that they call one
  another names and make free use of dirty words.  People use filthy
  language all day long, but when they turn on the radio and hear a
  well-known personality, someone they respect, saying "fuck" in every
  sentence, they feel somehow let down.
    "It all started with Prochazka," said Tomas.
    Jan Prochazka, a forty-year-old Czech novelist with the strength and
  vitality of an ox, began criticizing public affairs vociferously even
  before 1968.  He then became one of the best-loved figures of the
  Prague Spring, that dizzying liberalization of Communism which ended
  with the Russian invasion.  Shortly after the invasion the press
  initiated a smear campaign against him, but the more they smeared, the
  more people liked him.  Then (in 1970, to be exact) the Czech radio
  broadcast a series of private talks between Prochazka and a professor
  friend of his which had taken place two years before (that is, in the
  spring of 1968).  For a long time, neither of them had any idea that
  the professor's flat was bugged and their every step dogged.
  Prochazka loved to regale his friends with hyperbole and excess.  Now
  his excesses had become a weekly radio series.  The secret police, who
  produced and directed the show, took pains to emphasize the sequences
  in which Prochazka made fun of his friends - Dubcek, for instance.
  People slander their friends at the drop of a hat, but they were more
  shocked by the much-loved Prochazka than by the much-hated secret
  police.
    Tomas turned off the radio and said, "Every country has its secret
  police.  But a secret police that broadcasts its tapes over the radio
  - there's something that could happen only in Prague, something
  absolutely without precedent!"
    "I know a precedent," said Tereza.  "When I was fourteen, I kept a
  secret diary.  I was terrified that someone might read it, so I kept
  it hidden in the attic.  Mother sniffed it out.  One day at dinner,
  while we were all hunched over our soup, she took it out of her pocket
  and said, 'Listen carefully now, everybody!'  And after every
  sentence, she burst out laughing.  They all laughed so hard they
  couldn't eat."

Part 4, Section 4:

    She came out into Old Town Square - the stern spires of Tyn Church,
  the irregular rectangle of Gothic and baroque houses.  Old Town Hall,
  which dated from the fourteenth century and had once stretched over a
  whole side of the square, was in ruins and had been so for
  twenty-seven years.  Warsaw, Dresden, Berlin, Cologne, Budapest - all
  were horribly scarred in the last war.  But their inhabitants had
  built them up again and painstakingly restored the old historical
  sections.  The people of Prague had an inferiority complex with
  respect to these other cities.  Old Town Hall was the only monuyment
  of note destroyed in the war, and they decided to leave it in ruins so
  that no Pole or Germans could accuse them of having suffered less than
  their share.  In front of the glorious ruins, a reminder for now and
  eternity of the evils perpetrated by war, stood a steel-bar reviewing
  stand for some demonstration or other that the Communist Party had
  herded the people of Prague to the day before or would be herding them
  to the day after.
    Gazing at the remains of Old Town Hall, Tereza was suddenly reminded
  of her mother: that perverse need one has to expose one's ruins, one's
  ugliness, to parade one's misery, to uncover the stump of one's
  amputated arm and force the whole world to look at it.  Everything had
  begun reminding her of her mother lately.  Her mother's world, which
  she had fled ten years before, seemed to be coming back to her,
  surrounding her on all sides.  That was why she told Tomas that
  morning about how her mother had read her secret diary at the dinner
  table to an accompaniment of guffaws.  When a private talk over a
  bottle of wine is broadcast on the radio, what can it mean but that
  the world is turning into a concentration camp?
    Almost from childhood, Tereza had used the term to express how she
  felt about life with her family.  A concentration camp is a world in
  which people live crammed together constantly, night and day.
  Brutality and violence are merely secondary (and not in the least
  indispensable) characteristics.  A concentration camp is the complete
  obliteration of privacy.  Prochazka, who was not allowed to chat with
  a friend over a bottle of wine in the shelter of privacy, lived
  (unknown to him - a fatal error on his part!) in a concentration camp.
  Tereza lived in the concentration camp when she lived with her mother.
  Almost from childhood, she knew that a concentration camp was nothing
  exceptional or startling but something very basic, a given into which
  we are born and from which we can escape only with the greatest of
  efforts.

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Version: 2.6.2

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evH9JaLE2OO7iaqEuVYay4Tv9OB6YegUNmBhp3sSmQgzrVdvtfFZiQ==
=Fawj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 30 19:46:49 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:46:49 +0800
Subject: Why? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710010249.VAA17613@einstein.ssz.com>



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:19:09 -0400
> From: Anonymous 
> Subject: Why?

> Jim Choate wrote:

> >> so, and not just for cpunk traffic.  We should use them for
> >> everything.  It won't take that many people to reduce the message
> >> 
> >> The tools exist to do this.
> >
> >Yes, but why would I?

> - From "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera
> Part 4, Section 2:
> 
>     It was a program about Czech emigration, a montage of private
>   conversations recorded with the latest bugging devices by a Czech spy
>   who had infiltrated the emigre community and then returned in great
>   glory to Prague.  It was insignificant prattle dotted with some harsh

And your premise is what?

 -  Anonymous remailers would have resolved the Czech issue?

 -  America is currently in the same sort of situation and the use of
    remailers would resolve it?

 -  Anonymous remailers guarantee that such things won't happen in the
    future?

 -  Santyana was right?

Obviously the first two are gibberish. There is absolutely nothing to have
prevented the Czech government (or any other) from setting up anonymous
remailers acting in the role of man-in-the-middle attacks subverting any
conspiracies.

Now the 3rd is clearly unrealistic because the issue is the respect one
human being gives another in regards to their beliefs and the expression
thereof. The problem is a people problem, not technology.

I personaly vote for the 4th option myself. I would like to believe that
through the use of commercial anonymous remailers the concept of anonymity
could become ingrained in a society. That is what would help resolve issues
like the above, not the remailers themselves.

My original question still stands, why would I or any other party choose to
use an anonymous remailer for anything other than the original 3 items I
mentioned previously.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep 30 19:57:16 1997
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:57:16 +0800
Subject: Commercial remailer request...
Message-ID: <199710010257.VAA17681@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Since we apparently now have at least one commercial anonymous remailer I
would be interested in the gross cash flow. In short, I would like to know
the general difference (plus/minus and by about how much) between the cost
of the remailer operation versus the actual e-cash income in American dollars
each month. It would also be nice to know the relative ratio between free 
and for-pay submissions. Is the remailer to be advertised, and if so where?

Would it be possible to have such info say submitted to the list for the
next few months?

I want to put one up now that we are moving to a T1 within the next few
weeks but I have to justify it financialy.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |    The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there   |
   |    be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.       |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                       -Alan Greenspan-             |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage at ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From Lynx_User at linux.nycmetro.com  Tue Sep 30 22:46:42 1997
From: Lynx_User at linux.nycmetro.com (Lynx_User at linux.nycmetro.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:46:42 +0800
Subject: standoff_1.html
Message-ID: <199710010518.BAA03827@linux.nycmetro.com>



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
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   Saturday September 27 11:37 PM EDT 
   
Illinois Police Standoff Enters Sixth Day

   CHICAGO (Reuter) - A standoff between Illinois state police and a
   51-year-old widow in southern Illinois entered its sixth day Saturday
   with negotiations continuing but no progress seen, the police said.
   
   Sgt. Flynn Hanners of the Illinois State Police said negotiators have
   been contacting Shirley Ann Allen every 15 to 20 minutes to try to get
   her out of her house in Roby, about 15 miles east of the state capital
   Springfield.
   
   The standoff began Monday when Christian County sheriff's deputies and
   a family member attempted to serve court-ordered commitment papers for
   a psychological exam on Allen, he said.
   
   "Our whole design behind this is to get her out of the house and get
   her the medical attention she needs because she obviously has some
   mental illness that needs to be treated," Hanners said.
   
   He added that the police have been in constant contact with Allen's
   family and doctors and that a psychologist who works with the state
   police has been at the scene.
   
   Hanners said no activity has been seen since Friday morning when Allen
   fired a 12-gauge shotgun at officers and negotiators after the
   officers had fired six 12-gauge bean bag rounds at her, striking her
   three times.
   
   The officers fired after Allen left the house, faced the negotiators
   who were in plain view and raised the shotgun "as if to fire," he
   said.
   
   "Three of the six rounds struck her in the chest area, the midsection,
   but she was not stunned," he said. The bean bag shots are designed to
   knock someone to the ground, but Hanners said the shots had no effect
   on Allen, probably because of the number of layers of clothing she was
   wearing.
   
   Allen also fired at the police Tuesday when two officers has gotten
   close to the house "trying to get a look in," Hanners said. He added
   that power had been cut to the house temporarily Tuesday.
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    Questions or Comments






From attila at hun.org  Tue Sep 30 22:59:40 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:59:40 +0800
Subject: Call to arms against F[reeh,uck] [was] PGP and Hamas v. ZOG
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970928:1225 
    Tim May  purported to expostulate:

    [snip Brad Dolan's announcement of Hamas crypto use...]

+But I told you all this several weeks ago. Through sources I have no
+intention of discussing, I discovered that PGP 5.0 is indeed being used
+by the Palestinia freedom fighters in their war against the Zionist
+occupiers of their homeland.  They got 5.0 shortly after it was
+released...and got it their forces by more direct means that that
+"public relations fig leaf" of scanning in source code.

    I'm sure they, like ANY other "terrorist", "undesirable", "foreign",
    "despicable" USG or LEA denigrated "scum" had an unlimited number
    of PGP5 copies the day it hit Egghead, or probably long before, and
    they were all using earlier, more manual, versions before that. 

    just how long after you walk out of Egghead does it take to send a
    copy to anywhere in the world. Of course, the _approved_ "gentlemen"
    such as the Karen freedom fighters rebels in Burma and other
    "approved" freedom fighters were probably given a hand carried
    copy from our state department.  I wonder if the Taleban fanatics
    received a courtesy copy?

    in other words, our clueless and power hungry, privacy denying 
    incompetents in Washington missed the boat again. If Hamas
    Liberation Fighters or the Freedom Fighters whatever, can not get US
    encryption, they will be forced to use inferior Russian encryption 
    --yeah, right!  justice is served?  does Washington really believe
    they can stop worldwide encryption if they stop US encryption. 
    America, the international 800 lb gorilla bully? Not in this case,
    you can not control crypto with guns anymore than you can forever
    suppress free speech.

    Next, as Tim points out, is the domestic political issue and the 
    total stupidity of the Clinton administration as they sacrifice
    smart diplomacy to satisfy a vocal and overly influential minority
    whose interests are completely contrary to the American reality. A
    zionist is a zionist before s/he is an American.

    and it is these same activists who will sell out our own privacy and
    security as US LEA and their friends kneejerk themselves into
    banning raw crypto, and castrating the Bill of Rights, justified by
    the hysterical "fact" HAMAS is free to pursue their policies of
    liberating their stolen land with PGP!  HAMAS did it before without
    PGP; life goes on.
  
+(The Palestinian farmer living in Jaffa, with title going back several
+generations, is not much impressed when a Jew from Krakow arrives with
+ZOG soldiers to expel him from his orange groves, citing the Old
+Testament as his title to the land. Any wonder that he and his children
+and their children think blowing up some ZOG residents is a reasonable
+response?)

    yup: the United Nations comes in and says that is so; the British
    evicted 300,000 Palestinians from their homes after WWII to cover
    their guilt of the Holocaust [actually, the reason the Brits carved
    up the holy land was to avoid taking all the refugees in], do you
    think that Palestinian farmer cares?  --they're all the same to him.
    kill them all; Allah is just.

    all that farmer knows is that someone he does not know, and for whom     
    he owes no allegience, says that land his family has had since the 
    diaspora is not his --he does not know what the diaspora was, and he 
    does not care.

+I described this use of PGP to some PGP, Inc. employees at the last
+Cypherpunks meeting. Two of them seemed deeply concerned. Apparently
+the "freedom fighters" that Phil Z. so conspicuously refers to, the
+Karen guerillas in the jungles of Myanmar/Burma, are somehow different
+from the Hamas freedom fighters seeking reclamation of their own land
+and destruction of the illegal ZOG state.

    yup, welcome to American liberals.  Read Friedman in the NY Times OpEd 
    pages: aggression is bad anywhere; unless, of course, the Israelis 
    are punishing the wicked Palestinians who have the audacity to
    ask for the land they owned for a 1000 years or so to be returned. 
    how many hundred thousand 'stateless' Palestinians does the King of
    Jordan support and suffer their political restlessness and sores
    from concentration camp conditions? they had homes before 1947. 
    Now, how many millions of stateless Palestinians are spread around 
    the Middle East, fermenting like bad wine?  how many generations of
    Palestinians have never known anything except the deprivation,
    poverty, and statelessness of the concentration camps?

    The Czechs, after WWII, forced over 500,000 ethnic Germans off land 
    they had been a part of for at least 20 generations, with almost 
    200,000 lives lost. anybody bother about that in history?  after 
    WWI, the Turks slaughtered the Armenians by the millions --still 
    denied in history. the list goes on; who's next?  if the US does not
    look after its quickly vanishing ideals, maybe we're next.

    it all depends on your perspective as to who is wearing the white hat; 
    and the official US position is HAMAS is a terrorist entity --NUTS. 
    HAMAS just wants what was taken from them returned; HAMAS actually
    started out as an organization to provide schooling and health care 
    for the Palestinians --and that is still HAMAS' major function. 
    like Hezbollah.

    Hezbollah has been transformed into a militant organization by the 
    military occupation of South Lebanon and Israel's support of the
    Lebanese Christian militia.  Hezbollah does not actually claim they 
    want to take Israel; they just want south Lebanon; sounds to me like
    a resistance movement like the free French in WWII who were legally 
    terrorists in their own land.  Why should Hezbollah be denied PGP? 
    we would have given it to the French Resistance.

    For almost 100 years, US governments have "impartially" considered 
    US foreign interests by the definition that "impartial" means in the
    _economic_ interests of a small class of banker and industrial
    moguls, movers, and shakers --with one major exception:  Israel,
    facilitated via the virtually total ownership and control of US 
    media by zionists:  NYTimes, Washington Post and Newsweek,
    Time-Warner, CBS, ABC, NBC, Disney, Los Angeles Times...  which is
    more than enough to control not only the media itself, but the
    access to the news itself.

    The concept that the US exports democracy and human rights is, and
    has been, a total fallacy in this century.  The United States 
    government is the world's largest dispensor of international terror 
    and governmental meddling --it's only business.

    The democratic ideals which Alex de Tocqueville waxed eloquently
    about American governmment in the 1830s, underpinned by _local_
    government, were washed away with the surrender of states' rights in
    the 14th amendment after the Civil War.

    In this century, the CIA (and predecessors) along with US 
    financial despots, like old Joe Kennedy and Senator Bush, have had a
    hand in either supporting a Hitler [Bush] or a Stalin [Kennedy] or
    de-stabilizing virtually every government in the world at one time
    or another --including destabilizing the Labour party in favour 
    of Iron Maggie's interests within the last 20 years.

    with the changing of the guard in Washington, I wonder if Major's 
    government was destabilized to further Clinton's interests, or to 
    silence the conservative Brits' derision of Bubba?  notice the tone 
    of Brit (well deserved) snotting on Clinton has changed since Tony 
    Blair took office.  

+PGP and strong crypto is spreading quickly to many freedom
+fighters...and even some terrorists (even by my definition). Who
+expected otherwise?

    absolutely so. US foreign policy has not been in the interest of the 
    United States for some time --it has been detrimental to US 
    interests since Bubba and his blind swamp rats assumed power --still
    thinking after 6 years they are on a campaign trail.

    supporting the Israeli political dictatorship who will take (or
    steal by espionage or reverse engineering US donated hardware) our
    secrets and sell them to the highest bidder is not in the best
    interests of the US.  the US learned nothing from the '72 oil
    embargo. and how the US can justify supporting 3 million _expensive_
    non-citizen units with annual multi-billions of our hard earned 
    dollars, while gaining the absolute enmity of a couple billion 
    other non-citizen units is beyond me.

    and Americans at home, even if they have been 'informed" that 
    America --not necessarily American individuals-- is the world bully,
    often worse than Russia (or the British Empire, which was rather
    fatherly in many ways), refuses to believe the U.S. still believes
    in gunboat diplomacy --to this day.  pax americana! 

    In one form of another, either by action or inaction --the sin of 
    commission or omission--, the US has dirty hands in the stinging
    indictment rendered against this century by Kofi A. Annan,
    Secretary-General of the UN, given for the MIT commencement ('97)

      I begin with the struggle between reason and unreason.  When the 
      history of the twentieth century is written, this struggle will
      figure very prominently in it.  On the plane of international
      affairs, the outbursts of unreason in this century surpass in
      horror and human tragedy any the world has seen in the entire
      modern era. From Flanders' fields to the Holocaust and the
      aggressions that produced World War II; from the killing fields of
      Cambodia and Rwanda to ethnic cleansing in Bosnia; from the
      twenty-five million refugees who roam the world today to untold
      millions, many of them children, who die the slow death of
      starvation or are maimed for life by land-mines--our century, even
      this generation, has much to answer for.

    but-- does this justify limiting the freedoms of US citizens? does 
    this give Mr. FBI movie personality F[reeh,uck] claim to unbridled
    power of surveillance?  F[reeh,uck] thinks it does.

    does the fact that HAMAS chose a superior US encryption product over
    an inferior international product justify banning encryption? US 
    enlightened foreign policy, national security, and LEAs think so.

    F[reeh,uck] and his LEA cheerleaders are nothing more than
    yesterdays dumb farmers who locked the barn door after the horse ran
    away. This does not speak well towards encouraging our confidence in
    the Beltway moles, blinded by years in the tunnel vision of power.

    be prepared for another emergency assault on encryption now that 
    HAMAS is "on board". lock the barn now that the horse is gone.

 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBNDHeob04kQrCC2kFAQG2ogQAm6ovl9njhhNZdWG47tFZGIbdf625+4zY
G69Z/hxc40kYN4uqxoRluaYOIa/tw7JloUHAhBqe7lR9e+hIInDQjgbUcdPV53Hz
3/kjmxWFCvgI2wlXI4TnivaD7L0KkogCDVhdvE9uT4NB9F/ASp92YOnUuh9k+dhx
bN5hexMJaw4=
=Ag5M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From jimmcl at one.net.au  Tue Sep 30 23:12:50 1997
From: jimmcl at one.net.au (Jim)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:12:50 +0800
Subject: Secure HTTP servers.
Message-ID: <3431DF24.E4E9C578@one.net.au>



Hi all,

I just started working vfor a local ISP and they found out, i was on
this list and knew a little about crypto. Anyway they seem to have the
impression this would qualify me to know something. At any rate, on to
the point of the mail. Could someone point me in the right direction for
info on secure http servers ??  Also maybe info on which is better than
the other ??

Jason






From attila at hun.org  Tue Sep 30 23:45:09 1997
From: attila at hun.org (Attila T. Hun)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:45:09 +0800
Subject: DejaVu: Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings
Message-ID: <199710010537.XAA11189@infowest.com>



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

ten months ago: on or about 961218:1123 
    "Timothy C. May"  purported to expostulate:

+_Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through
+the spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax
+system, through even more direct applications of the right tools at the
+right times.
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.

    [Tim] said this before Christmas last year as an erudite and lengthy
    addendum to my lengthy tome: "Cypherpunks as Philosophy Kings" 
    that pretty well summed our generally mutually agreed "philosophy". 

    both were and still are worth reading; anybody who does not have
    copies, ask.

    but cypherpunk terrorists are not violent; this is all about making
    information free and protecting privacy with technology.

    despite the fact the Commerce Committee effectively killed SAFE
    (or we think they did until Oxley tries to tack his amendment
    structure on an appropriations bill in a house-senate conference or
    "manager's mark" procedure (whatever that is)), we can not drop the 
    due diligence, and the public must be aroused, called to battle. 
    even if there is no action, prepare for the next fire drill. sow the
    seeds of dissension.

    seems to me we were sure the CDA was dead --except it slipped in with 
    a manager's mark after the house voted almost unanimously the other
    way (402-12 or something like that). the capitol hill sleeze 
    took a grand slam NO and reported an even worse yes, making it part
    of a major bill that absolutely was going to pass --and they 
    have the gall to call that travesty democracy?  Teddy Roosevelt: 

        "It is difficult to make our material condition better by the 
        best law, but it is easy enough to ruin it by bad laws."

    Tim's message for Christmas last was the prophetic call for direct
    action; legal action; empowerment action: Robert H. Jackson
    (1892-1954), U.S. Judge:

        "It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen 
        from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to
        keep the Government from falling into error."

    CYPHERPUNKS MUST BE THE JOHNNY APPLESEED OF THE INFORMATION AGE.

    the sleezeball, who intends to make J Edger look like a piker at 
    surveillance, has the gleam of unabridged power in his eyes. Louis 
    F[reeh,uck] is charming, even disarming, as he tells a Congressional
    committee:

        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the 
        country if we are not scrutinized carefully." (Jun '97)

    meaning the FBI will be the most powerful [feared] federal agency?
    really?  I thought it was already, although the DEA and BATF have 
    worked hard for the title, too.

    Supreme Justice Louis O. Brandeis said:
    
        "The greatest danger to liberty lurks in insidious encroachment 
        by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

    and the [London] Electronic Telegraph, on Sunday's front page:

        Mr Freeh has won $370 million (�230 million) of
        funding for 2,000 new posts, boosted the number of
        active agents to more than 11,000, and expanded
        open-ended "domestic security operations" from 100 in
        1995 to more than 800.  Twenty-three new FBI offices
        are opening abroad.

    and more:

        But none of this will contain the director's ambitions
        or his power.  He is now believed to be eyeing two
        other "secret police" forces - the Drug Enforcement
        Agency and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
        - with a long-term view to a takeover.

    F[reeh,uck] holds the key to the Clintons' ambitions; the Clintons 
    cite the Roosevelts as their mentors; Hillary even communes with the
    long dead Eleanor. Bubba's stated goals included extending FDR's 
    "chicken in every pot" --he's just appeasing the crowd now.

    Leopards do not change their spots, but Bubba has shifted to the 
    right with public opinion; he is just like the leopard: playing with
    his food until sufficient presidential powers have been accumulated 
    by the default of Congress and the people.

    But, the INFORMATION REVOLUTION now stands in way of the Clinton
    plans; the Internet can destroy the media control now exercised by
    the acquiescence of the five jewish media barons. In fact, it is 
    destroying their monopoly.

        THE CONTROL OF INFORMATION IS THE CONTROL OF POWER. 

    Why does F[reeh,uck] hold the key?  Because his job is to sell the 
    Congress on strangling the information revolution before it destroys
    truthless governments F[reeh,uck]'s masters understand and control.

    Franklin D. Roosevelt was inaugurated on 4 Mar 33 stating:

        "I am prepared under my constitutional duty to 
        recommend the measures that a stricken nation in the
        midst of a stricken world may require.  These
        measures, or such other measures as the Congress may
        build out of its experience and wisdom, I shall
        seek, within my constitutional authority, to bring
        to speedy adoption.  But in the event that the
        Congress shall fall to take one of these two 
        courses, and in the event that the national
        emergency is still critical, I shall not evade the
        clear course of duty that will then confront me.  I
        shall ask the Congress for the one remaining
        instrument to meet the crisis broad Executive power
        to wage a war against the emergency, as great as the
        power that would be given to me if we were in fact
        invaded by a foreign foe."

    and, on 9 Mar 33, 5 days later, FDR extracted from an uniformed
    and essentially special session of Congress:

        "Be it enacted by the Senate and the House of Representatives of
        the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the
        Congress hereby declares that a serious emergency exists and
        that it is imperatively necessary speedily to put into effect
        remedies of uniform national application."

    which was based on the War Powers Act (trading with the Enemy) of
    1917 which was hastily revised to include US Citizens which had been
    exempted. Next, FDR "franchised" the banks, "licensed" agriculture
    and so on. But, to render the citizens powerless and to confiscate
    all assets so the national state was the ultimate owner, and
    therefore able to pledge the people for credit to the international
    bankers, the fundamental monetary system changed:

        "Whenever in the judgment of the Secretary of the 
        Treasury, such action is necessary to protect the 
        currency system of the United States, the Secretary 
        of the Treasury, in his discretion, may require any 
        or all individuals, partnerships, associations and 
        corporations to pay and deliver to the Treasurer 
        of the United States any or all gold coin, gold
        bullion, and gold certificates owned by such 
        individuals, partnerships, associations and 
        corporations." 

    which closed the loop and made every US citizen chattel as FDR 
    pledged the good faith and credit of the United States to the 
    international bankers --in return, an unbelievable flood of credit 
    was available since the good faith and credit of the United States 
    is "We the People...."  but FDR sold us downstream into a debt 
    financed economy from which there is no escape; we are still there,
    the debt service is destroying any permanent economy AND total
    collapse under the debt load is bequeathed to our children.

    Congress repealed FDR's rubber stamp for the "President" in 1973,
    but the War Powers Act remains, still modified to treat US 
    citizens as the enemy. and the power of the "President" to make 
    those regulations, and the automatic approval are enshrined for
    current and future Presidents in Title 12 USC 95(b)

        "The actions, regulations, rules, licenses, orders and 
        proclamations heretofore or hereafter taken, promulgated, made,
        or issued by the President of the United States or the Secretary
        of the Treasury since March the 4th, 1933, pursuant to the
        authority conferred by subdivision (b) of Section 5 of the Act
        of October 6, 1917, as amended, are hereby approved and
        confirmed."

    The real issue is the President and the fat cat power brokers can 
    get away with these shenanigans __as_long_as_the_people_let_them__.
    We are still under the Rule of Necessity. We are still in a declared
    state of national emergency, a state of emergency which has existed,
    uninterrupted, since 1933.  

    FDR's licensing agencies were rather trivial in number; today there 
    are thousands of them, many with their own administrative courts. 
    FDR took away our common law when he bankrupted America, which is a 
    national corporation under the Hague convention (courtesy of Stanton
    and Seward after the Civil War).  Bankruptcy is a contract, and 
    we are the bait, subject to that court, which is in effect an 
    Admiralty court, and we are "licensed" to literally exist by FDR's 
    Social Security Number schema. and every courtroom now flies the 
    fringed Admiralty flag where habeas corpus is a privilege, not a 
    right, if it exists at all.

    This is the importance of Louis F[reeh,uck].  He, and Janet Reno as 
    the DOJ rubber stamp, are holding the collar for your neck. They
    are selling it to you little by little, or even all at once.

    Why Louis F[reeh,uck]?  Madison Avenue style with credentials; he
    can sell the program. F[reeh,uck] is the front man, the schill.

    Machiavelli, in his "Discourses of Livy," acknowledged that great 
    power may have to be given to the Executive if the State is to
    survive, but warned of great dangers in doing so.  He cautioned: 

        Nor is it sufficient if this power be conferred 
        upon good men; for men are frail, and easily 
        corrupted, and then in a short time, he that is 
        absolute may easily corrupt the people."

    sleezeball's comments are scarfed by Congress, sleezeball's candor
    rocks their cradles, sleezeball shows them private morality plays
    about a populace running wild with crypto-anarchy, running wild 
    to burn out the offices of central power...  in other words:

      DEPRIVE THEM CONGRESSCRITTERS OF THEIR FREE LUNCH AND IMMUNITY.

    is it not odd that the more the government tries to abridge our free
    speech rights, the more they want to confiscate our weapons?

        free speech is a weapon of democracy!
        privacy is a weapon of democracy!
        cryptography is a weapon of democracy!

    We are not fighting with guns and explosives this time, armed 
    insurrection against the power of the Federal government is 
    suicidal --we are fighting for our lives and the right to live our
    lives with words: the ability to hear those words _before_
    government censors and spin doctors render them useless lies.

    Bubba can not win a war of truth and information; we can/

    The Marquis de Sade:

        Are not laws dangerous which inhibit the passions? 
        Compare the centuries of anarchy with those of the 
        strongest legalism in any country you like and you will
        see that it is only when the laws are silent that the
        greatest actions appear.

    however, anarchy is the key word that ignites even the ACLU against
    your cause; it even makes makes bedfellows of Pat Buchanann and the
    homosexual/priest/congressman from Massachusetts...  

    pure anarchy, by definition, does not work, anyway. forget it. get 
    the concept out of your systems as it inflames everyone and all 
    other reason is lost in the screaming and police batons.  

    Even Teddy Roosevelt called for the complete extermination of
    anarchists, to be hunted like vermin. give it up; or go to your
    private island and fly your rattlesnake flag. even Anguilla will not
    tolerate anarchists.

    just give us our REAL constitutional rights as Franklin, Madison, 
    Jefferson, Adams, and friends intended; give us constitutionalists 
    on the Supreme Court, not bleeding hearts, statists, and central
    power freaks. get the Feds out of cradle to grave big government and
    let the people determine their religion and morality.

    give us freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, freedom from 
    unreasonable searches, freedom not to incriminate ourselves, and 
    repeal the 14th Amendment so we can have states' rights again.

    if our Constitution were permitted to govern as it was intended, and 
    the states obeyed the precepts endowed to not further limit the
    rights of the people, America would be the home of the free, not big
    government, not freeloaders and the welfare state; not the leftovers
    of a once great nation.

    give us the rights Abraham Lincoln cherished lovingly:

     "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."

    let _them_, not me, live the downside.

    George Washington, in his farewell address, warned:

       "... change by usurpation; for through this, 
        in one instance, may be the instrument of good, 
        it is the customary weapon by which free 
        governments are destroyed."

    cypherpunk philosopher kings: pick up your picks and shovels, get 
    your hands dirty, and start digging in; it's going to be a long and 
    difficult campaign and the tactics needed to expose F[reeh,uck]'s
    true intentions as the schill for the Clintons who are schills
    for the elitist leading the destruction of American democracy. 

    The Congressional compromise love match season isn't over yet; the
    schmoozers and lobbyists, like so many furry rats, still wander the
    dark halls and tunnels looking for the last, late in the season,
    clandestine and obscene fuck.  any whore will do.

    lobbyists have long reputations for selling out the interests of
    their paymasters; the lobbyists are so much a part of the Washington
    culture that they have _no_ morality or moral position --it is all
    about who they can claim to have influenced --what difference does
    it make if it is contrary to the client --the art of the deal, 
    protect their own position and find newer, richer clients --whores!
    logrolling and porkbarrel voting --but never go home without a deal;
    used car salesmanship: get your man.

    I can hear the lobbyists whining now as they are called on the 
    carpet:

        "aw, come on Mac, we got you a compromise from LEA demands..."

    never realizing that there is such an action as NO bill, they sell 
    out half our rights blocking legislation which would never happen.

    they claim they got back half. what half? --some unknown half that 
    we _never_ lost!  that is why:

        The 10 Commandments contain 297 words. The Bill of Rights is 
        stated in 463 words. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address contains 266
        words; and: 

        A recent federal directive to regulate the price of cabbage
        contains 26,911 words. (The Atlanta Journal)

    send the quisling Neville Chamberlains to the gas chambers!

    the public needs to be educated, not in crypto, but in the horrors of     
    an oligarchy which intends to destroy the fundamental freedoms on 
    which we stand.  

    publish his credit records; publish his medical records --tell his
    neighbors about his visits from Child Protective Services... then
    Joe Coach Potato will figure out he needs something

        AFTER he figures out there are fuckors and fuckees, 
        and he's on the short end of that stick. [pardon my French]

    then, and only then, will the masses understand privacy --when they 
    have lost it. 

    either we show the people before they lose everything to uncle,
    or...    just dump it on the table to show everyone just how much
    uncle knows about _you_.

    Attila's thought for the day:

      Now, with a black jack mule you wish to harness, you walk up, 
      look him in the eye, and hit him with a 2X4 over the left eye.   
      If he blinks, hit him over the right eye! He'll cooperate.  
          --so will politicians.

    Louis F]reeh,uck], did you really state this hoping everyone would 
    think you are joking? 

        "We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the 
        country if we are not scrutinized carefully."

    Louis F[reeh,uck], you obviously know that telling the truth, before 
    the truth is really the truth, disarms your opposition since they 
    can plainly see that it is not true.

    there is a limit to what you can endure before you must stand to 
    be counted --so I will loudly echo Tim's sentiment: 
+
+When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.
+
 --
 "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."     
        --Benjamin Franklin
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


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